# Aiming and Target Panic: A discussion



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The desire to do well has definitely been a problem for me as far as tourneys go. I only shot two tourneys in 2012, the TN Classic and the Trad World. Finished 2nd at the Classic and 14th at the World in my class. In three Trad Worlds, I have yet to shoot to the level I am capable of. I would walk off a range and think to myself "I make shots harder than that everyday in the yard". But the IBO doesn't hold tournaments in my yard, so none of that matters. I would definitely fall into the class of "he's his own worst enemy". Good thread. Speck


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Great writing Jimmy! Very well organized, as well as comprehensive.

Reminds me of Larry's experience looking at his parachute.

While I'm nowhere near the shooter you or Larry are, I can relate, particularly on the priorities thing. 

Last time I did a 900 round, I not only didn't practice enough with the bow I was going to use (freestyle compound rig), didn't really figure out my sight settings, etc., in short didn't do the preparation I really needed to do, but still I really wanted to do better than I did the last time i did a 900 round. I guess in many ways I had set myself up to fail. By the time they moved the targets up to 40 yards, 2/3 of the way through the shoot, i realized it was mathematically impossible for me to even tie my previous score. If everything went perfect, I'd still be 4 points down. I gave up on scoring, and determined that this was now just practice, and to concentrate on figuring out what I needed to do with this bow that I had neglected for so long. First arrow went high in the nine. I no longer cared, adjusted my sight to compensate, and from then on the rest went in just fine. Of course, moving the targets closer didn't hurt  Finished 5 points behind what I scored before. What was more interesting, is where I had previously been approaching mental, and perhaps a degree of physical exhaustion at the end of the previous 900 round, at the end of the more recent 900 round, I felt good, like I was just getting warmed up, and I was having FUN!

Again, great essay.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

My disagreement comes in that many instinctive shooters were taught to snap shoot - and believe that this is how they are supposed to shoot - and this is not target panic - this is a form issue. Now if someone like myself, Rick Welch, Scott Langley, Sean Callanan - who all pause at anchor and do not snap shoot - suddenly started snap shooting I would agree - then we have "target panic" - but I have yet to meet an instinctive shooter who has ever started off pausing at anchor and then began snap shooting - but I suppose it is possible. 

I have talked to lots of trad archers - not thousands - since there are not thousands in the USA to meet - but I have talked to hundreds and been to some huge all traditional shoots over the 25+ years I have been shooting trad - and without exception - every single guy I met that got target panic was a conscious aimer - I have never met a single instinctive shooter who got target panic. I have met instinctive shooters who snap shoot - but that his how they started shooting right from the beginning - it was how they were taught - or how they believed that they should shoot.

I am sure it is possible for an instinctive shooter to get some kind of target panic - especially if he puts too much pressure on himself, but most instinctive shooters are in it for fun and the joy of shooting - and don't put that kind of pressure on themselves - even those of us who shoot instinctive and shoot very well - don't put pressure on ourselves - I don't care if I come in first place or last place - as long as it was fun and I know I did the best I could - or at least knew what I did wrong - I am happy - the only time I get upset is the few times I cannot figure why my shooting is falling apart - but I usually figure it out the next day.

There is an excellent book that delves into this subject called The Mental Mechanics of Archery - do a search and get it - it is one of the best books on the mental aspects of shooting I have ever read.

Target Panic rarely occurs in guys who shoot for fun - it happens amost exclusively to extremely competitive people who forgot that archery is supposed to be fun.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Good stuff, very enlightenning. Ken, I would think that snap shooting could be classified as either, if you CAN'T hold, then it's a mental issue (panic) but it's still a form issue at the start. I also wouldn't say it's just an instinctive shooting problem, because I was still suffering from snap shooting AFTER I started aiming. Lasted quite a long time afterwards actually.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Exactly - it could be either - but like I said - there are soooooo many guys who shoot instinctive that were taught that this is how they are supposed to shoot - it is impossible to tell if this is a form issue or a target panic issue - since they have ingrained snap shooting as part of their form.

Target Panic is a mental issue and I think it occurs almost exclusively to overly competitive people - but it is hard to say - mental issues are as different as the people with them - there is probably no one way to fix it or explain it for everyone - but some generalizations can be made - at least I think they can.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

As usual I will agree to disagree with sharpbroadhead's comments.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

kegan - of course you are correct. I know a lot and I am around trad shooters all the time here at Twin Oaks, not just members, but truck loads who drop by every weekend who aim instinctively. Many of them have never heard of "snap shooting." They just look at what they want to hit and shoot, but as I said in the article they are not in control of the shot. They can not stop the shot once they begin pulling the string. This is a mental thing. If you put them in front of a window they would shoot it out even if they tried not to. This is clearly a form of target panic.


----------



## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

My response is in reference to release compound shooters that think they have target panic which by the way includes me. I have shot archery for more than 40 years and have never met an archer that did *not* have target panic. All of them do some time or another. But on the same note, I have never met an archer that had target panic when standing right next to the target or dot. I am talking about right off the end of your stabilizer maybe a foot or so away. 

So why is this? At least for me it is conditioning. The steadier I can hold on the center of the dot, the less target panic I have. Putting the bow away for a period of time just made things worse for me. I lost muscle strength.

Even the worst case of target panic can be cured in a very short while by shooting a foot away from the target. Now being able to cure it when standing further back is entirely up to how well you can hold at different distances. Everyone that has ever tried to find their distance knows exactly what I am talking about. There will be a distance where target panic returns and it will never go completely away until proper conditioning enables them to again hold inside the dot through the entire shot.

So I guess what I am trying to say is:
I think target panic is a state of physical conditioning rather than a state of mental confusion. I know it is for me. I have proved it many times to myself.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Great thread, Jimmie. For me major target panic went away when I gave up the compound bow. The mental aspect of shooting that thing left me a mess. I was a lousy, inconsistent shot, and just couldn't figure out how to shoot it better, between all the fancy stuff on the bow and my technique, I didn't know where to begin. 

Going to the stickbow, and keeping it basic, allowed me to focus on form and knowing immediately that a poor shot was some breakdown in my form. I still make lousy shots, but not as many, and can pin point the source of it and fix it rather quickly. I am an instinctive shooter, but I do follow a strict shot sequence which includes a 3 point anchor and a hold to settle in the aiming before I release. When I flub a shot it's usually when I fail to trust my subconscious aiming and adjust my aim prior to release, usually too high and overaim the target... Maybe that is a form of target panic???? But I can correct this by regaining control of my shot sequence, trusting my instincts and surrendering my release to my subconscious. 

Oh yea, and when I quit being so competitive and have some fun, I shoot a whole lot better.:shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well markdenis - you have met me - I have never had target panic - now you can say you have met someone that has never had target panic - I have been shooting a bow for over 25 years and have been engaging in competition most of that time - and I have never had target panic. I have met guys who have had it, and for some it is far more complex to fix than just standing close to the target.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Great thread Jimmy, TP is a terrible thing and I am certain there are 100's of guys out there who will swear blind they've never had it but do actually have it really bad. I know of a few "instinctive" aiming hunters who have it as bad as anything I've seen anywhere.


----------



## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Letting go is the hardest thing to do! I don't mean the string either. I fell in the camp of pass by shooting when consciously gapping, and just like you described a 30# bow becomes a monster and then the shot is rushed, and all the calmness turns into anxiety. Anxiety is not what I'd call fun, or control in the least bit. What's ridiculous is, once you learn how a proper shot feels like, you can't force it to happen after frustration takes control. In my case, it's better to take a break and maybe resume later that day or the next, when my mind is relaxed and right. It doesn't matter how many arrows I waste trying to get back to that mental proper shot, it just ain't gonna happen. Why? because I'm forcing and frustrated...I've learned that once I've lost the calm it's a waste of arrows. It's like mental quicksand, the harder I struggle, the deeper I sink.


----------



## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

Well if you are a competing dot shooter, yes you would be the first person I have ever met that did not have target panic. I hope it never attacks you.
And for sure I have not met all archers, but of the ones I have, standing right next to the target cures target panic at least at that distance in a very short time. Once a shooter starts moving back, it starts all over again. 




sharpbroadhead said:


> well markdenis - you have met me - I have never had target panic - now you can say you have met someone that has never had target panic - I have been shooting a bow for over 25 years and have been engaging in competition most of that time - and I have never had target panic. I have met guys who have had it, and for some it is far more complex to fix than just standing close to the target.


----------



## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Target panic is fear of missing..nothing more than that. Sorry if that's off topic. I remember shooting my Hoyt Ultratec.. the harder I tried to hold that pin on target the worse things got. I never matured enough to let the drift happen. I found that using the tip of the arrow brought some of the same behaviors or target panic.


----------



## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

That is close or maybe even the same as I am saying. When I stand next to the target, I can hold in the x and never wobble out of it so there is no fear of missing. As I move back, I begin to shake enough to wobble me out of the dot....thus panic sets in. 

I can shoot 60X inside out at 6 feet.
At 5 yards I can shoot 60X but not all inside out.
At 10 yards I can shoot 60X most of the time.
At 15 yards I usually shoot around 55-59 X's.
At 20 yards I usually shoot between 50-55 X's.

Every bit of change is due to not being able to hold steady in the dot.





Mo0se said:


> Target panic is fear of missing..nothing more than that. Sorry if that's off topic.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I pretty much agree with everything that Jimmy has talked about.

Target Panic is a MENTAL issue...NOT a form or aiming issue. Alot depends upon the archer's personality and how they are wired.

Form and aiming issues can help lead an archer to TP...because if an archer is missing the target alot because of a form or aiming issue...they will never build much confidence in their shooting skills...and a lack of confidence can definitely lead to TP.

I have seen all types of archers have it. It is NOT exclusive to target archers or those that aim at some conscious level. I've witnessed and talked to many Instinctive archers who had it. One of my best friends who shot Instinctively and pretty much would release the moment he hit anchor would get it at times where he couldn't reach full draw and would snap shoot in the negative context how an archer can snap shoot.

I will acknowledge that the majority of archers that do or will get it...are the target archers that are more competitive or place alot of pressure upon themselves to do well...and the archers least likely to get are the one's who really don't care or who don't put alot of pressure on themselves.

The key is to learn how to be relaxed and focused within the moment without ANY negative thoughts. If it means developing a shot sequence to focus on or changing something with your equipment and/or aiming technique to help with how your mind thinks when you shoot it's all good. Some changes are quick fixes and can end up being only temporary.

There isn't necessarily one answer for everyone. The key is finding out what works for your goals, personality and abilities. IMO...the only permenant way to truly cure it is to change the way you think when you shoot. When you've found what works for you based on your goals, personality and abilities...you will be on your way to recovery.

I personally have found a remedy with using the Blank Bale and the Bridge.

Ray :shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

mark - I shoot 300 Rounds and average in the 270's, but 3D is what I like best - as I said however, TP in my experience usually only effects extremely competitive people


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

btw - I never said target panic is a form issue - I said that with many intinctive shooters snap shooting is a form issue - because that is how they believe an instinctive shooter should shoot - big difference. Ray is a perfect example of this mentality - in virtually any post that shows super fast shooting and snap shooting - he makes his often repeated comment about that being "pure instinctive" or "true instinctive" - and unfortunately many new guys fall into this trap and think that they have to shoot extremely fast and snap shoot in order to be "truly instinctive" - and as any experienced archer can tell you - for most people this is going to lead to MAJOR form issues - that in many cases - guys who don't fully understand instinctive shooting and its history attribute to target panic - when in reality it is not target panic but a form issue - a bad habit.


----------



## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

I am no expert for sure. I know where I stand on the subject, and I know where other people I am around stand too. And yes, the other people I am around are also competitive archers just as I am. Just goes to show you, archery is a complex issue for some and not for others.




sharpbroadhead said:


> mark - I shoot 300 Rounds and average in the 270's, but 3D is what I like best - as I said however, TP in my experience usually only effects extremely competitive people


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

exactly - and it is rarely complex for instinctive shooters and that is why we rarely get TP -


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If an archer is purposely snap shooting...it's NEITHER a form issue nor target panic.

Snap shooting is ONLY an issue if it's an uncontrollable response to having TP or it's not producing the accuracy the archer wants under the circumstances they are shooting in...otherwise there is NO issue.

Having TP can lead to many different form issues such as flinching, dropping the bow arm, snap shooting uncontrollably and/or plucking to name a few. It can effect each archer differently.

This is common knowledge within the sport's industry. The more fluid and quickly a movement is executed...the less chance the conscious mind has to influence how the movement is executed analytically. In other words...the longer an archer holds anchor, the longer the archer aims and adjusts their sight picture, the closer the archer's aiming reference is to their direct line of sight...the more chance the conscious mind has to influence the shot and consciously make adjustments to the sight picture.

This is ALSO why...it's more common to see archers who aim more consciously end up with some form of TP than it is with archers who TRULY and PURELY aim TOTALLY Instinctively. There is generally just more time for the mind to become distracted with a negative thought when spending more time holding anchor and aiming.

Ray :shade:


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

To me it would be really easy to tell a true snap shooter who shoots that way bc he was taught that way vs. a case of target panic... It is as Jimmy says, simply ask them to pull and hold at anchor until someone else says "go". If they can't do it, then it is TP, but if they can, then they are just mechanically pulling and holding and would naturally let down instead of releasing. Good discussion Jimmy. Spot on as usual.

Dave


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Good thread.

I get it all...almost every day. On any given day I'm liable to fall apart as soon as I shoot well enough to impress myself. I usually manage to pull it back together but I still don't really know how I pull it back together or how to stop it from happening.

Sometimes I think concentrating on the shot sequence is the answer but, if I think too much about the sequence, I can make a mess out of it too. Usually, I think, because I spend so much time thinking about it that it just doesn't flow.

When I'm shooting well, I'm relaxed and I just do it. I get it all done...anchor, aim, expand into release but there's a nice smooth relaxed cadence to it. The problem is recreating that composure (for lack of a better term).


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

MGF - if you want to avoid TP - relegate almost all of it to the subconscious - don't over think anything about the shot. I cannot recommend this book enough - The Mental Mechanics of Archery - if you want to be able to shoot in that "relaxed cadance" all or most of the time (everyone gets off their game now and then) - this book will help like nothing else:

The Mental Mechanics of Archery - by Thomas Whitney and Vishnu Karmakar - http://www.centervision.com/MMofArchery.html

I only have one copy of it left otherwise I would just send you one - I have given away several of these over the years - this is an excellent book - in fact - if you buy and don't like it - I will buy it from you - there ya go - a "money back guarantee" from me.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Most instinctive shooters that I have had the opportunity to shoot with are totally out of control...not meaning to be disrespectful but most can't come to anchor hold pause whatever and then release the shot.......the exception to that rule is Ken and Rick...but they are the exception not the norm...

Great post Jimmy as always.

Dewayne


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Target panic is an aiming issue for me the instant the aiming takes control of the shot I am done. When the aiming is in the shot sequence and my last thought is not aiming its wonderful. I have it when I shoot instinctive when I gap or when I shoot point of aim. It does not care how you aim it does not care what type of bow or release you shoot. It is a mental breakdown in the shot process. Once you realize you have it you can shoot as many arrows at a blank bail you want. But the second you aim at a spot or 3d or pine cone stink bug or what ever it will start to creep back. So if it is an aiming issue like mine you MUST PROVE to you self it's ok to aim. It must be ok to aim so you can get through the rest of the shot. You have to retrain your brain that its ok to aim. If you think you don't aim go to a target get real close so you can't miss draw anchor close your eyes and shoot a few arrows until you calm down. Once you close your eyes and take the anticipation out of the shot process you will know if you have it.
Remember retrain your brain to aim then excute the shot. If its not ok to aim your not going to make a very good shot .
Gary


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog - I agree - and it is because of lousy from from the beginning - not target panic - those guys never got good enough to develop target panic - you have to actually become a good shoot first before you get target panic - 

Oh and VA - Rick and I are not the only top shooters who shoot instinctive - Scott Langley of Langley Outdoors and Sean Callanan of Recurve Revolution are both World Champion instinctive shots - and I am sure there are other top shooters that shoot instinctive as well - the reason that there are few of us - is because soooooo many guys think like Ray - that if you pause at anchor and have good solid form that you are somehow not truly instinctive - which is simply not the case - and why soooo many instinctive shooters shoot horrible - they think that they have to shot fast and snap shoot to be "truly" instinctive - which is not the case.


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Great thd Jimmy as usual
Gary


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Gary - interesting point about aiming. Ideally, we draw, anchor, sustain back tension and then begin aiming. In the piece above I mention lighting the fuze which John took from Bennie at the NFAA Master Coach course. As the aiming begins there is a point where we commit to the shot. We begin to engage the big back muscles to take us to conclusion. Ideally, we then consume ourselves in aiming so that it is a complete surprise when the bow goes off. In essence you take all attention off the release or the stringhand fingers so that it is a surprise when the release goes off or the fingers slip from the string. If you think about the release you will absolutely anticipate the shot. The instinctive archer would be completely focused on the spot and begin contracting and the same principle would apply. Now, if you can't focus on aiming what do you do?


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This work for me set up the shot get into my back aim then go back to the back and the shot just happens. Now I must say it doesn't work 100% of the time because I may loose concentration. I don't think TP ever goes away completely for me but there are days I am the master and the more I prove to myself I can aim and execute the shoot the better it gets.
Gary


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> They can not stop the shot once they begin pulling the string. This is a mental thing. If you put them in front of a window they would shoot it out even if they tried not to. This is clearly a form of target panic.


I guess we could categorize this definition of target panic as a sub type, much as like Ray and Ken's different definitions of instinctive, on a range or continuum. I mean, I know a woman who is doing exactly as you're saying. She starts pulling back, and even if I remind her to get to anchor, she releases before it hits her face. So, she's not controlling the shot, but, she's not exactly panicked in the sense that she has any anxiety, is second guessing herself, or is in conflict. She's totally going subconscious with it. Her inability to not snap shoot, or consistently anchor, could equally be considered merely a bad habit. Granted, it gets in the way of consistent shooting, particularly beyond 20 yards, but if you want to consider it Target Panic, I would at least differentiate it from the anxiety associated with flinching, or other things that interfere with the shot sequence, as opposed to a corrupted shot sequence.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> The key is to learn how to be relaxed and focused within the moment without ANY negative thoughts.
> Ray :shade:


Ah ha. And that, finding focus and relaxation within a potentially high pressure situation, is the art, the means, and the reward you can transfer to other endeavors! I look forward to the acheivment


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> kegan - of course you are correct. I know a lot and I am around trad shooters all the time here at Twin Oaks, not just members, but truck loads who drop by every weekend who aim instinctively. Many of them have never heard of "snap shooting." They just look at what they want to hit and shoot, but as I said in the article they are not in control of the shot. They can not stop the shot once they begin pulling the string. This is a mental thing. If you put them in front of a window they would shoot it out even if they tried not to. This is clearly a form of target panic.



Ju know some strange folks. I can't imagine someone who doesn't have the sense to change the action at any time he wants to and would shoot the window out. Really? I do believe that such a person could possibly exist somewhere,but how is that you see so many of them and the rest of us never see any. That's like saying that once you shoulder a shotgun then you don't have the self control to not shoot even if the target is gone. Really? I'm 'really' glad I don't know any of those dangerous poeple.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> MGF - if you want to avoid TP - relegate almost all of it to the subconscious - don't over think anything about the shot. I cannot recommend this book enough - The Mental Mechanics of Archery - if you want to be able to shoot in that "relaxed cadance" all or most of the time (everyone gets off their game now and then) - this book will help like nothing else:
> 
> The Mental Mechanics of Archery - by Thomas Whitney and Vishnu Karmakar - http://www.centervision.com/MMofArchery.html
> 
> I only have one copy of it left otherwise I would just send you one - I have given away several of these over the years - this is an excellent book - in fact - if you buy and don't like it - I will buy it from you - there ya go - a "money back guarantee" from me.


Okay, you have convinced me to try it. After my christmas shopping is done, if there's anything left, I'll put it in my cart!


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Ah ha. And that, finding focus and relaxation within a potentially high pressure situation, is the art, the means, and the reward you can transfer to other endeavors! I look forward to the acheivment


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> She starts pulling back, and even if I remind her to get to anchor, she releases before it hits her face. She's totally going subconscious with it. I would at least differentiate it from the anxiety associated with flinching, or other things that interfere with the shot sequence, as opposed to a corrupted shot sequence.


I agree :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

uabdave said:


> To me it would be really easy to tell a true snap shooter who shoots that way bc he was taught that way vs. a case of target panic... It is as Jimmy says, simply ask them to pull and hold at anchor until someone else says "go". If they can't do it, then it is TP, but if they can, then they are just mechanically pulling and holding and would naturally let down instead of releasing. Good discussion Jimmy. Spot on as usual.
> 
> Dave


Are you sure it's target panic if a person can't pull a string back,hold and then release it when he wishes to do so or when he is told to do it. Maybe there are bigger issues going on there. Might just be prone to stab the accelerator while sitting at a stoplight also because he just can't resist the urge. Of course, I've never really encountered those people either.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> I guess we could categorize this definition of target panic as a sub type, much as like Ray and Ken's different definitions of instinctive, on a range or continuum. I mean, I know a woman who is doing exactly as you're saying. She starts pulling back, and even if I remind her to get to anchor, she releases before it hits her face. So, she's not controlling the shot, but, she's not exactly panicked in the sense that she has any anxiety, is second guessing herself, or is in conflict. She's totally going subconscious with it. Her inability to not snap shoot, or consistently anchor, could equally be considered merely a bad habit. Granted, it gets in the way of consistent shooting, particularly beyond 20 yards, but if you want to consider it Target Panic, I would at least differentiate it from the anxiety associated with flinching, or other things that interfere with the shot sequence, as opposed to a corrupted shot sequence.



Might be a good idea to stay away from her, a long way. If she does not have the mental capacity or self control to perform such a simple function, I believe I would make myself scarce if I knew she was anywhere in the area.
We're not talking rocket science here, simply pulling a spring loaded string to a predetermined position and releasing said string when and if we conciously decide to do so. Does not take too much common sense to do that.

There might even be a better adjective or three to describe this condition but I don't believe 'target panic' is one of them.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I frankly think its funny when you guys say you've never seen these folks before. In all sincerity, just go to the practice range of any big tournament, fun shoot, etc... and watch folks do this very thing. I have seen guys literally slap themselves in the face bc they cant get to anchor before release on one shot... then watched their "anchor" float any number of distances from their face from touching their chin to just sliding their hand past their face and the arrow is gone. They never get to the same place twice... and these folks are usually measured in the dozens as opposed to the single digits at these tourneys. If you handed them a compound, they'd be the ones who as soon as the pin crosses the dot, they'd punch the release as well.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

2413gary said:


> Target panic is an aiming issue for me the instant the aiming takes control of the shot I am done.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> IS aiming the issue, or lack of trusting your aim? I will have this problem occasionally. For instinctive shooters this can be a problem. Rick Welch advocates "trusting your instincts" and Ken has talked about surrendering the shot to your subconscious. I find this to be true and very helpful. When I am "in the groove" , my shot sequence is smooth and fluid, the aiming just happens naturally and everything goes well. But on occasion I will not trust my aim, make adjustments, and usually its a misjudge.ent in elevation resulting in overshootin my mark. I find it very helpful to relax, take a deep breath and trust my first instinct which is usually correct as the subconscious knows where to put the arrow especially after thousands of practice shots.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

FORESTGUMP - I'm with uabdave, you just don't know they are that bad. I'm not saying I have encountered hundreds but I've had several come to me for help and that is how I know them. Two of them to this day can not hold it at anchor a split second. You don't know them because they hide it as best as they can. Both of these guys killed 4-5 deer this year. They take 8 yard shots and have learned to line everything up before they start pulling. Another guy came to me for help and said he had not shot in 2 years because he was too embarrassed to shoot in front of people. I was able to really help him. A light bow and let down drills made a big difference for him. He still flinches every now and then but not bad and he is a good shot. 

Because I am open with my shooting and willing to help people they approach me with issues and I do the best I can to help. Through trust people tell you what they need help with. Like uabdave says, they are at shoots with you all the time if you watch them. Many shoot okay but they are not in control of the shot at all and can not make it to anchor and pause. If this was a learned way of shooting you could tell them that they are NOT going to shoot the next arrow. Just pull the bow to anchor then let it down. They can't NOT shoot. I have done this many times and it helps them realize that they have this problem. 

A friend of mine told me about his buddy who was a compound finger shooter and he got it so bad he couldn't hold a compound. He actually put himself in front of a window thinking that it might be a cure. He shot the window out.


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> My disagreement comes in that many instinctive shooters were taught to snap shoot - and believe that this is how they are supposed to shoot - and this is not target panic - this is a form issue. Now if someone like myself, Rick Welch, Scott Langley, Sean Callanan - who all pause at anchor and do not snap shoot - suddenly started snap shooting I would agree - then we have "target panic" - but I have yet to meet an instinctive shooter who has ever started off pausing at anchor and then began snap shooting - but I suppose it is possible.
> 
> I have talked to lots of trad archers - not thousands - since there are not thousands in the USA to meet - but I have talked to hundreds and been to some huge all traditional shoots over the 25+ years I have been shooting trad - and without exception - every single guy I met that got target panic was a conscious aimer - I have never met a single instinctive shooter who got target panic. I have met instinctive shooters who snap shoot - but that his how they started shooting right from the beginning - it was how they were taught - or how they believed that they should shoot.
> 
> ...


I can only tell you that way back when I was an instinctive shooter - and a pretty good one - I never snap shot. But I sure as heck did get target panic. And to reiterate what I say on my website (linked below), it got so bad that I left the sport for a number of years. So yes, not only do I believe it can happen, I can affirmatively say it happened to me. 

Now that I'm in the business of helping guys get past their target panic, I can also say with full knowledge thereof, that I wasn't the only one it ever happened to, based on the stories I hear from some of my trad clientele.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

AJ - as I have said before - I don't think it is impossible for an instinctive shooter to get it - I think it is rare and that many people mistakenly label anyone who snap shoots and shoots poorly as having target panic - when in reality - they were taught to shoot that way from the beginning. Most instinctive shooters snap shoot - to dispute this is absurd - why do most snap shoot? Because of the mentality expressed by people like BlackWolf that one is not "truly" or "a pure" instinctive shooter unless they snap shoot. This along with the fact that most of the instinctive guros appear to snap shoot - when in reality - they are not - they are shooting fast - but they have a solid and determined anchor that they hit with virtually every shot - they just have gotten so good at it that they don't hold at anchor very long and it appears to be snap shooting.

I will try to summerize my points.

1. TP is rare in instinctive shooters for a variety of reasons including: a. - they do not consciously hold the aim - which is likely the leading (though not only) cause of TP - b. most instinctive shooters shoot for fun and are not competitive (competitive people are pretty much the only people who get TP)

2. Many people who do not understand the history of "modern" instinctive shooting mistakely attribute snap shooting to target panic - when in reality it is the way that most instinctive shooters today believe that they are supposed to shoot - so in reality - it is not TP - it is bad form - ingrained bad form - like a bad habit - and it is hard to break a bad habit - ask anyone who has quit smoking.

3. Guys who shoot multiple aiming methods and then get TP are in all likelyhood not getting it from aiming instinctive - and when they get it while shooting instinctive - it is likely a carryover issue from conscious aiming.

It seems to me that some just don't want to see any positive side to instinctive shooting - well believe it or not - this is one - TP is rare when one aims instinctively - and the reasons are layed out quite well in _The Mental Mechanics of Archery_

TP is such a complex issue - because it deals with the mind - and everyone is different in this regard - anyone that claims that they can cure any case of TP is selling ocean front property in Arizona.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Double


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

double


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

double


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

double


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

---


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> why do most snap shoot? Because of the mentality expressed by people like BlackWolf that one is not "truly" or "a pure" instinctive shooter unless they snap shoot.


LOL....paaaalease! Ummmm....yeah...blame my mentality and those that share it for every archer's snap shooting issues.

That would be like me blaming you for everyone's misunderstanding of what it means to be TRULY aiming TOTALLY Instinctively :wink: 



sharpbroadhead said:


> This along with the fact that most of the instinctive guros appear to snap shoot - when in reality - they are not - they are shooting fast - but they have a solid and determined anchor that they hit with virtually every shot - they just have gotten so good at it that they don't hold at anchor very long and it appears to be snap shooting.


If an an archer shoots the moment they reach their anchor point and appear to be shooting immediately...that IS one of the definitions of Snap Shooting!

There's 2 basic definitions to Snap Shooting...just as there are different definitions to Instinctive Aiming.

Snap Shooting in a controlled and purposeful manner.

And

Snap Shooting in an uncontrollable matter that is caused by TP.

I definitely would also NOT say TP is rare amoung Instinctive shooters. I would say its just NOT as common with them when compared to competitive target archers that use a more conscious Barebow aiming technique.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

---


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well according to both Byron Ferguson and Fred Asbel - neither of them snap shoot - they reach anchor and shoot fast - they both define snap shooting as having no definite and defined anchor point - sorry - but I will take their definition over yours.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> There is an excellent book that delves into this subject called The Mental Mechanics of Archery - do a search and get it - it is one of the best books on the mental aspects of shooting I have ever read.


Maybe a reread of that book would be in order, as it pretty much sums up what Jimmy is saying about TP and instinctive shooters - that it's just harder to detect in their inability to aim, as they don't have a set aim reference point or pin for timing that aspect, BUT, it's found in their inability to hold. The malady affects both, inability to hold on aim and inability to hold release.

In that authors words concerning instinctive aiming and TP: "_Just because it is hard to detect does NOT mean that instinctive shooters are free from the aiming problem that sight equipped shooters have. Many time instinctive shooter will suddenly go into a slump and wonder what happened to their shooting, not realizing they actually got a case of target panic_."

That's what Jimmy is saying. Now, it could be more rare, it could look to be more rare because it's harder to detect given the aiming and release methods, or it could be the same. The author of that book pretty much sums up by saying that it can be noticed more in their inability to hold the release - same as Jimmy.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes sanford and you and Jimmy seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that many instinctive shooters snap shot from the very beginning - because they believed that that his how they are supposed to shoot - so how do you tell if the fact that they snap shoot is due to TP or due to bad form? When I quit smoking for years after I would reach into my shirt pocket for my cigarettes after every meal and everytime I got into the car - the habit was sooooo ingrained that I automatically did it - the same thing with shooting poorly - if you started snap shooting and snap shot for years and years - they don't just stop because someone says: "hold at anchor" - this is not due to TP - it is due to a bad habit - a bad form that has been ingrained in them.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand - but whatever - this is going back to the same silliness - you guys have fun with it - back to work - hunting, and my Latin lessons for a while.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> I can only tell you that way back when I was an instinctive shooter - and a pretty good one - I never snap shot. But I sure as heck did get target panic. And to reiterate what I say on my website (linked below), it got so bad that I left the sport for a number of years. So yes, not only do I believe it can happen, I can affirmatively say it happened to me.
> .


I was in the same situation as AJ, I was on around my 3rd National titile and just hit me like a train from nowhere, conscious aiming was my only route out as I had lost all confidence in Instinctive aiming i.e I needed an aiming ref to install some level of confidence in my shooting and it got me out of a BIG hole I had dug myself into.

This weekend I ran into some issues, a number of small factors built into a bigger issue of control, firstly I changed equipment 3 weeks before and needed a little more time, I only had time to shoot out to 55y so the 60 to 80y shots I didnt feel as confident on, American Airlines kindly retuned my bow for me by bending my arrow rest slightly and one screw on handle sheared off in transit, and I found myself on a few shots for some reason rising above my gap and fighting to get the point back on. All these little things just chipped away at any confidence I had, it wasnt full blown TP just some minor battles for control but enough to hurt my game and make me shoot well below my avaerage, I only thing that likely stopped full blown TP was to evaluate the situation and accept that it was out of my control for that moment and to just enjoy the shoot to the best of my ability, when you get upset your just feeding the darkness of the TP beast, you just have to make the best of that moment and keep in mind why you shoot a bow in the first place.

After the tourney I was trying my new Dryad Rec I got specially for WA3D, I found the first day or two hard to control as Im not 100% confident with the Gaps but as I began to trust the gap everything settled very nicely, once the gap is ingrained focus is on the shot sequence, when minor things get in the way I find the learned shot sequence goes out the window, you need to fix the problem and get back to a stage of being able to follow your sequence without distration.

I think you need complete confidence in all aspects of tune, aim and form to shoot totally relaxed and just a minor break in any of these things can start a chain reaction leading to loss of control, if ignored it will just get worse and develop into full blown TP


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

uabdave said:


> I frankly think its funny when you guys say you've never seen these folks before. In all sincerity, just go to the practice range of any big tournament, fun shoot, etc... and watch folks do this very thing. I have seen guys literally slap themselves in the face bc they cant get to anchor before release on one shot... then watched their "anchor" float any number of distances from their face from touching their chin to just sliding their hand past their face and the arrow is gone. They never get to the same place twice... and these folks are usually measured in the dozens as opposed to the single digits at these tourneys. If you handed them a compound, they'd be the ones who as soon as the pin crosses the dot, they'd punch the release as well.



Dave,I don't know a lot about la people but I did work in the area for a year back in the day and seem to remember that most were fairly normal with a good amount of common horse sense and mechanical skills. Don't remember many bumbling idiots that probably should not be trusted with a pocket knife. Maybe I just missed them but I don't think so.
However,I do know that there a some people everwhere who are not very capable with mechanical things. Example is a kid who lives near me who showed an interest in archery for a while. He lost interest soon and I sure didn't encourage him because he was one of those who might poke himself in the eye playing with pointed objects. A smart kid about computers and such,just not mechanically inclined enough to shoot with bows and arrows. Note that I did not encourage him. He is probably one of those people you guys are talking about and would be better to concentrate on other things.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> well according to both Byron Ferguson and Fred Asbel - neither of them snap shoot - they reach anchor and shoot fast - they both define snap shooting as having no definite and defined anchor point - sorry - but I will take their definition over yours.


LOL. reminds me of a friend who was working on some hot metal and accidentally touched it with his bare fingers. Of course he reacted quickly and jerked his hand back. I laughed and asked him if it was hot to which he replied, "no, it just didn't take me long to check it".
So,how long does it take to anchor and release? How long is a stick?


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't understand why this is so hard to understand -


You might need more clarification as to the difference between an uncontrolled response and just an ingrained response which is also uncontrollable. Both result in the inability to hold at anchor, which is a TP symptom.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LOL...the term Snap Shooting is NOT something I made up or created. I can NOT and will NOT claim ANY responsiblity to creating that definition. BOTH definitions of Snap Shooting have been around alot longer than I have.

It is SOOOOOO EASY to Google 'Snap Shooting Archery' to see that there are at least 2 definitions to Snap Shooting that exist and have existed for a loooong time.

I can't help it that sharp and maybe a few others are unwilling to except that words and descriptions of some techniques...CAN have multiple definitions and meanings.

When a person actually researches everything on a subject...instead of just taking a few people's words as some type of holy grail...clarity often becomes a reality on a subject and a person can begin to understand how some people have come to understand and believe in their opinions or the opinions of others.

It's really sad some people don't make more of an effort to try and understand one another.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Let's not allow ourselves to be derailed by the need for a definition of snap shooting. I very clearly explained that a person who consciously snap shoots can still control the shot by holding when you tell him he is not going to shoot. I was emailed yesterday and told that if I began a post which said, "The sky is blue," I would get a negative response from a token few just because it's me. If the theory is that once you have ingrained snap shooting into your subconscious then you just release at anchor automatically then I'd be in good shape because my deliberate release would be ingrained in the same way.

At the risk of really derailing, I want to try and make a point on a contributing factor for not noticing it in instinctive shooting. One factor is that instinctive shooters don't get the same feedback that aimers do. Since an aimer is seeing the tip of the arrow he clearly knows if he is afflicted with the "drive by shooting" disease. He gets instant feedback, but no one but that archer knows it's going on. He gets feedback by knowing how hard it is to move the point to the appropriate spot. This feedback enables the archer to know what is going on and thus try and address the problem. 

I got a call from an instinctive shooter last week who wants to try gapping. He put a string up like I do in the videos and he aimed the point at the base of the string. His arrows grouped very tightly but 6" left of the string. He said, "I don't understand it." I said, "your arrows aren't tuned. They are too stiff." He had no idea because when we shoot instinctively our brain recalculates after every shot. The brain is a marvelous tool that wants us to hit the mark so if you shoot one arrow and it's left then the brain moves you right on the next one. I've seen guys shoot arrows that were not tuned very accurately because they have shot those arrows in a particular bow so long that it's automatic. The feedback from knowing what broke down or that the brain is making a correction that we many not want is valuable information to know. 

I am not criticizing instinctive shooting nor am I belittling those who choose to shoot this way. I am only objectively stating what I have experienced so that others can make informed decisions. I shot instinctively from the time I began shooting in 1973, when my dad put a bow in my hand until 2006 when I decided to try everything I could discover in archery. I do have some experience with instinctive shooting.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

interesting in that aside from the semantics side of thing, everybody seems to be agreeing  Yay team!


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Its kinda funny you mention Byron Ferguson, as from what I have seen on the Outdoor channel show he is on... he in no way snap shoots. I see him hold at anchor for some few seconds at least before he shoots, especially when he is shooting at a difficult target. Sure looks like he is aiming to me unless my eyes deceive me.

Dave


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jimmy, a lot things about our shooting gets masked by how we shoot. When we venture from that comfort zone, and then can't seem to do well, we have either of two option: 1) know that the world of archery is just a bit bigger than what we think it is and want to be part of it and learn more; or 2) shut down and try to define everything from our own perspective and call bunk on everything else in hopes that our inadequacies are masked as well. I know I think I shoot good and don't take well to being shown where I'm doing things wrong or where I could do better, but I have learned also that my learning curve was greatly shortened when I ignored my self-bias and started listening to others, even if they were not speaking my lingo on the subject at that time.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> At the risk of really derailing, I want to try and make a point on a contributing factor for not noticing it in instinctive shooting. One factor is that instinctive shooters don't get the same feedback that aimers do. Since an aimer is seeing the tip of the arrow he clearly knows if he is afflicted with the "drive by shooting" disease. He gets instant feedback, but no one but that archer knows it's going on. He gets feedback by knowing how hard it is to move the point to the appropriate spot. This feedback enables the archer to know what is going on and thus try and address the problem.


This is a very good point. However, to point out what I think perhaps Ken might be getting at, and I would agree, the feedback loop, while offering a means of diagnosis and correction, can also be an escalating factor. In fact, the feedback loop is considered a critical component in what psychologists call a 'panic attack.' Person gets a little nervous. Body responds with excitement. Biological responses are interpreted as an indication that something is wrong. Person becomes more distressed. Ongoing feedback loop. I think, perhaps, an advantage to instinctive shooting, so long as the person doesn't feel that things are going wrong, either in that they are shooting well, or have low or no expectations, or are truly okay with letting bad shots go, is that they don't have the feedback that lets them know when something might be 'wrong.' It's not that they can't get into a panic situation, but rather that the conscious aiming mechanism is removed from that potential. However, if they lose confidence in their subconscious aiming method, all bets are off 



> I got a call from an instinctive shooter last week who wants to try gapping. He put a string up like I do in the videos and he aimed the point at the base of the string. His arrows grouped very tightly but 6" left of the string. He said, "I don't understand it." I said, "your arrows aren't tuned. They are too stiff." He had no idea because when we shoot instinctively our brain recalculates after every shot.


So true. While tuning my plunger rest, I was shooting arrows, consciously referencing the arrow for left/right. Arrow shot way weak, like 8 inches at 20 yards. I decided to double check, forgot to consciously aim, and while I noticed enough to remember just after the fact, i didn't notice during the shot that I compensated automatically and simply adjusted to the left, arrow went center again.

I'm wondering that maybe the lack of anchoring might be a contributing factor to target panic, in that it is a symptom of lack of control. When people feel good about what's going on, they don't feel a need to correct something that's wrong. When people realize that they're not in control, _and_ consider it a problem, they start trying to compensate, second guess, and... panic, and the spiraling feedback loop begins.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Nice write up Jimmy, thanks for taking the time to set a solid foundation for discussion.

I knew people in competitive rifle shooting who ended up quitting the sport because they could not learn to control their "trigger panic". They usually didn't have much trouble shooting prone, but as the stability of the position declined (sitting, kneeling, offhand), their impulse to jerk the trigger or try to time the shot (drive by shooting) became impossible to overcome. I knew one guy that tried to adjust his sights to put the bullet in the x-ring even though he was unable to actually hold the sights there during the offhand stage. I would think there is some correlation to archery. 

I don't know whether TP has it's roots in an archers form or mental attitude, but suspect both contribute. I know for me, I am much more tempted to "dump" a shot when fatigue sets in or my confidence is lacking.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

BarneySlayer said:


> This is a very good point. However, to point out what I think perhaps Ken might be getting at, and I would agree, the feedback loop, while offering a means of diagnosis and correction, can also be an escalating factor. In fact, the feedback loop is considered a critical component in what psychologists call a 'panic attack.' Person gets a little nervous. Body responds with excitement. Biological responses are interpreted as an indication that something is wrong. Person becomes more distressed. Ongoing feedback loop. I think, perhaps, an advantage to instinctive shooting, so long as the person doesn't feel that things are going wrong, either in that they are shooting well, or have low or no expectations, or are truly okay with letting bad shots go, is that they don't have the feedback that lets them know when something might be 'wrong.' It's not that they can't get into a panic situation, but rather that the conscious aiming mechanism is removed from that potential. However, if they lose confidence in their subconscious aiming method, all bets are off


I guess I should reiterate that my goal in archery is to maximize my own personal potential. We all have certain limitations so our potentials vary. I never want to know what my potential is or I might stop striving so hard for excellence. I don't desire to be average. What you have described is in some ways blissful ignorance. If I don't know I'm screwing up, due to no perceptive feedback, but I don't have an anxiety attack then all is well in Zion....but we don't ever realize our true potential that way. We limit ourselves.

I remember Rod saying that he went to Len Cardinale when he got target panic the first time and Len welcoming him to the team. It seems that the vast majority of competitive shooters experience it to some degree. Braden Gellenthien had it as well. It may be something that we have to endure and work through to truly become the best archer (person who hits the mark with the highest percentage) we can be. If you shoot primarily because you are a hunter and 3D is just a tool to get you ready for the season then the alternative should be just fine. You can live in ignorance and accept good enough. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking at all.


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Now, if you can't focus on aiming what do you do?


Subconscious aiming and conscious shot execution?


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is really getting silly now - I get instant feedback too - the arrow either goes where it is supposed to or it doesn't - and I know instantly - and to claim that the need for a defnition of snap shooting is derailing is absurd - if two people have two different understands of what a term or phrase means - how can you have an intelligent discussion - which is what this thread is supposed to be - a discussion - you cannot have a discussion without a common understanding of the definition of the terms in the discussion.

And for Jimmy to now claim that those of us who shoot for the primary puprose of hunting and use 3D as tool to be the best bowhunters we can are "living in ignorance" and accepting "good enough" is absurd and a comment meant as one thing a dig!

Jimmy hate to inform you but my "good enough" attitude has outscored you everytime we have met on the 3D range. Some of us can have fun and still shoot good - even better than those who go to shoot for the sole pupose of winning.

I am going to leave this now - since Jimmy had decided to make this some sort of personal attack by claiming that people who approach archery differently than him are "ignorant" and "accept good enough" - even though, I am one of those people who managed to outscore the expert everytime we met on the 3d range - how does that work?

whatever


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> If I don't know I'm screwing up, due to no perceptive feedback, but I don't have an anxiety attack then all is well in Zion....but we don't ever realize our true potential that way. We limit ourselves.
> .... You can live in ignorance and accept good enough. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking at all.


Not disagreeing with anything you're saying, and have similar motivations, and am learning the methods. What I was more getting at, whether it's a better or worse path, is that a more conscious methodology is a double-edged weapon, and I'm not saying that one edge is good or bad. Rather, if the figurative wielder of the blade isn't careful, or properly trained, or willing to put in the time to learn the techniques, they might find benefits to a different blade, is all.

I can say that, personally, I think that I've benefited from conscious aiming methods. I can also say that I've yet to come close to mastering them. What's more, I can personally testify that when i began to try, it _seemed_, at least, to screw up my shot execution. in the short term, it seemed a step backwards, and I left it alone for years. Sharp might say that the aiming methods induced target panic, and I don't know that I'd disagree with him. That's not to say that I never flinched of screwed up a shot due to target panic while shooting instinctively. i'd be staring at the spot, getting anxious, and blow my release, waiting for the string to go, perhaps collapsing.

Different roads, different surfaces, different tires is all.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I get instant feedback too.


Certainly, and you can correct on the next shot. The difference (and advantage, I believe, in the case of Target Panic, at least the anxiety sense), is that the feedback comes after the shot is over. The feedback does not corrupt the ongoing shot sequence. What's more, the aiming method explicitly requires that the method not change, that any adjustments be left to the subconscious. A bad shot may shake confidence if you can't move on, but at least there's a boundary, which I would think would make it easier to separate. So, potentially an advantage with instinctive aiming.

However, if the aiming is explicit, and the shot went, say 12" low, and the shooter felt the shot well-executed, they can simply adjust aiming reference 12" higher.

In either case, if form is consistent, and the confidence in the process is there, things are good.

BTW, kudos for you on the Latin thing. you're going to be a blast at dinner parties !


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well excellent wirte up (as usual Jimmy!)..and great discussion but...this discussion is lacking one key element..as while it's being discussed wether TP is a byproduct of aiming/trying to hard or?..the result of a mental breakdown/form issue...i think one very popular (if not the most popular) trigger for TP has thusfar been overlooked...

"Being Over-Bowed"

Or even hitting a stacking point that arrives just short of full draw/anchor..anything that even slightly questions the archers physical ability to command their respective bow with absolute control, power and authority cause once that little mind gremlin of doubt sets in?..you wind up commanding a ship named "The Bounty"..and we all know how that book ended. :laugh:

an it can be sneaky too as it can come in many forms..such as fatigue setting in..or?...that favorite 55# bow you could draw and hold just fine and rock steady when you were 35, 45 and 55 but now your 65 and the bows still 55. :laugh:

just some shared thoughts and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't shoot tournaments these days, but do communicate with a number of top instinctive shooters, and none to my knowledge snapshoot.

Back when I did shoot tournaments, as I mentioned earlier, I was a decent instinctive shooter (but never a great one). I can recall shooting with Dr. Fred Simmons, Jr., from Houston, 1959 NFAA National barebow champ. For sure, he didn't snapshoot, nor did *any *of the other really top shooters. Things even seemed to slow down more when stringwalking came into favor. I can recall watching Cliff Necessary take what seemed an inordinate amount of time to get a shot off, circa 1964. Same with the Byrd fellow who won in 1962.

I do recall a lot of snapshooters, but for the most part none ever won anything of note. And once again, while I don't shoot tournaments today, I do speak with a number of top shooters, and their TP issues don't involve snapshooting. Others however, who aren't at that level, do have that issue, and basically the same approach seems to be helping them as well.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

So many times I've decided to part ways with Archery Talk and let Ken have it, but every time I think of the good folks here and I come back only to find myself in this position yet again. I know where this trail leads so thanks for the comments from those with open minds.


----------



## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Well Jimmy I love your post and videos. Other experts, we won't mention,I had rather plow behind a mule that has been eating fresh corn.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> "Being Over-Bowed"


Great point!

Being over-bowed can definitely lead to a lack of confidence and anxiety.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> the feedback loop, while offering a means of diagnosis and correction, can also be an escalating factor. In fact, the feedback loop is considered a critical component in what psychologists call a 'panic attack.' Person gets a little nervous. Body responds with excitement. Biological responses are interpreted as an indication that something is wrong. Person becomes more distressed. Ongoing feedback loop. I think, perhaps, an advantage to instinctive shooting, so long as the person doesn't feel that things are going wrong, either in that they are shooting well, or have low or no expectations, or are truly okay with letting bad shots go, is that they don't have the feedback that lets them know when something might be 'wrong.' It's not that they can't get into a panic situation, but rather that the conscious aiming mechanism is removed from that potential. However, if they lose confidence in their subconscious aiming method, all bets are off


:thumbs_up

Ray:shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Greysides said:


> Subconscious aiming and conscious shot execution?


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> So many times I've decided to part ways with Archery Talk and let Ken have it, but every time I think of the good folks here and I come back only to find myself in this position yet again. I know where this trail leads so thanks for the comments from those with open minds.


For what it's worth I think a number of thoughts expressed in the thread have helped me sort some things out.


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

It's not trusting my aim I know exactly where to aim the problem is when the aim is right it's perfect I know it and you better hang on because its a wild ride!! I do have issues you know!
Gary


UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> 2413gary said:
> 
> 
> > Target panic is an aiming issue for me the instant the aiming takes control of the shot I am done.
> ...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Let's not allow ourselves to be derailed by the need for a definition of snap shooting.


In order to communicate effectively we do need to understand the different definitions that do in fact exist for the term Snap Shooting.

A few of us like yourself have acknowledged the different definitions. Unfortunately there are some who feel the need to try and insist that the definition they cling onto is the only correct one.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I think there's snap shooting that is nothing more than target panic and brings with it the previously mentioned flaws, i.e., inconsistent draw, failure to achieve a consistent anchor, and probably a poor release and follow through. 

I also think there is "snap shooting" that is in reality just an experienced archer so well practiced and consistent in their form that they can get the shot off quickly while still coming to a consistent anchor. Like many experts in other fields, it looks easy when they do it because they have done it thousands and thousands of times and have ingrained their motion and anchor so well its pretty much natural. Their speed came with repetition. 

To an observer they might look the same, but one is a highly refined skill and one is nothing more than a form of target panic. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Easykeeper said:


> Just my opinion.


That's more than just your opinion...especially when it's shared by many here and substantiated with plenty of evidence :wink:

A little research proves there is more than just one definition and meaning to Snap Shooting.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy, to be clear, I'm very glad you started this thread, and did it thoughtfully. I think it has actually remained, for the most part, a useful discussion. thank you, and don't go away! I still need to mooch your experience!


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I can't help thinking that if you get to full draw, anchor and hold, even briefly, then your brain is calculating the gap for you so you are by definition a gap shooter.
The classic I hear is from the "we are instinctive" guys when they have that horrible double clutch and pluck thing going on, "I only do this at 3Ds, with live game I get to full draw and hold". BS matey, you've got chronic TP, you use your dreadful form to justify your crap shooting and you hide behind the word instinctive because you think it gives you a get out of jail card for your terrible shooting. These guys do no justice to the real instinctive guys at all and really do think that because they are Trad and instinctive that their ability is ok to hunt and shoot with. Well if their snap shoot and pluck technique can't hit a foam deer at 15yds, it's not going to be any better at a real deer that's for sure.


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigjono, anything can be "rationalized" to death. I shoot instinctive. I have a routine. I hold for at least 2 seconds(i practice for this). I shot cbows for a long time, hunting and tourneys. When I toed a stake the first part of my shot process was to judge yardage. Be sure to read that last sentence carefully. After adjusting my sight to correspond with that yardage, I came to full draw and placed my pin (read those last 3 words carefully) on the spot I wanted to hit. This argument is and always has been stupid. Jimmy started a good thread but it has ended up the way most threads do that contain the word gap and instinctive on the same page. I know how I learned to shoot the way I do. From what I read on these forums, most trad archers don't have a clue about instinctive shooting. Speck


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Speck, this thread is not about the "I" word, I used the example because all the snap shooters I have come across call themselves instinctive because they think the term explains what they do whereas target panic is a better explanation for them.


----------



## SS7777 (Mar 17, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> The second issue the aimer encounters I refer to as the drive by shooting. The archer draws the bow and locks in at anchor. He then looks to see that the point of the arrow is not on the spot he wants, but moving the arrow is difficult. The seemingly simple task of adjusting the point of the arrow becomes a Herculean job. Even with a 30# bow it is a struggle so what inevitably happens is that the archer gets the point to move but when the point gets to the mark he lets it go. He can’t seem to adjust to the spot then hold and execute his shot sequence. He shoots on the way by or “drive by shooting.”
> 
> !


Other than just letting down, if the arrow is not seen on the mark, is there anything else that can be done to eliminate the above problem?


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The "I" word has been part of this thread from the beginning. Speck


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> Speck, this thread is not about the "I" word, I used the example because all the snap shooters I have come across call themselves instinctive because they think the term explains what they do whereas target panic is a better explanation for them.


I understand completely that the thread is about TP. Now, let's talk about all the gappers, stringwalkers, point of aimers, and gun barreler's that suck. Are they just using those terms to cover up TP?? Speck


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

No they suck as well - they just suck with precision. 

Matt


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Speck1 said:


> I understand completely that the thread is about TP. Now, let's talk about all the gappers, stringwalkers, point of aimers, and gun barreler's that suck. Are they just using those terms to cover up TP?? Speck


Excellent point - but hey Speck - according to the experts - if your primary reason for shooting a bow is bowhunting and you shoot 3d to be a better bowhunter you are and I quote exactly from Jimmy:

Jimmy Blackmon said and I quote:

_"If you shoot primarily because you are a hunter and 3D is just a tool to get you ready for the season then the alternative should be just fine. *You can live in ignorance and accept good enough*. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking at all."_

I dunno - but if I would have not out scored Jimmy everytime we have met on the 3D range - I might be offended by him calling me "ignorant" and living with "good enough" because I shoot primarily because I am a hunter and 3D is just a tool to get ready for the season.

But hey - I am the bad guy - I am the one pushing people away becaues I dare to disagree with a few points that Jimmy Blackmon made - I never called him ignorant or anything - just disagreed with him on snap shooting and instinctive shooting in relation to TP - but he can call me and thousands of archers "ignorant" and "living with good enough" - and that is just fine.

These forums are sort of like high school sometimes - the "in crowd" can get away with just about anything and the sheeple follow them and support them, they can insult them and they still support them - because they want to be part of the "cool crowd" and that is all that matters.

Speaking of high school - I never got into high school sports - to me they served no purpose - practice day after day to throw a ball - to what end - to win a game -a game that in reality means nothing? I never got into watching or playing sports - seemed silly to me - then when I was in my mid 20's my boss talked me into trying hunting - at the time money was tight and we could use the meat - so I went - I shot a trophy buck in the first five minutes hunting in my life - it was awesome. 

My brothers and dad always hunted - but I always had jobs in high school and did not want to take off work - so I never got into it back then. Well - my brother gave me his old compound back then and I started shooting it off the shelf and instinctively - I LOVED It - and it had a reason - a real world purpose for me - killing deer. I used it that late archery season of my first year hunting - after the season ended I bought a cheap recurve and have been shooting ever since - and the primary end of it has always been hunting - I shoot 3D and 300 rounds - not to win a trophy - or to go to a shoot for the sole purpose of winning - as Jimmy does - I could care less - I have more trophies from archery than I know what to do with - they are in my basement collecting dust - but my deer - they are on the wall and in my freezer - I am hooked on hunting - and given the choice between shooting at targets and winning plastic trophies or big ugly belt buckles that I will never wear and bowhunting - it will be bowhunting hands down every time. I really enjoy shooting my bow - but the end of it is always hunting - if bowhunting was made illegal - I doubt that I would shoot bow anymore - it would become like those high school sports - something that would serve no purpose to me.

I really don't understand why these target guys don't post their stuff in the FITA forum - that is more geared to guys who are out to "win".

But anyhow - I doubt that I will ever get target panic - because I don't care if I win or not - what I do care about is shooting the best that I can under pressure - because there is no pressure like a big buck in front of me - but the next best thing is shooting with other people in a competitive format.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> No they suck as well - they just suck with precision.
> 
> Matt


And that's the truth!!!!:teeth:


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Speck1 said:


> I understand completely that the thread is about TP. Now, let's talk about all the gappers, stringwalkers, point of aimers, and gun barreler's that suck. Are they just using those terms to cover up TP?? Speck


Won't/can't comment on the Instinctive shooters but most good stringwalkers will admit to suffering from TP and either having dealt with it, or, are dealing with it on an on-going basis.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> But anyhow - I doubt that I will ever get target panic - because I don't care if I win or not - what I do care about is shooting the best that I can under pressure - because there is no pressure like a big buck in front of me - but the next best thing is shooting with other people in a competitive format.


The whole TP thing got my attention because I missed a few deer that I should have hit. My shooting has always been ok and I've killed a lot of small game with a bow. Then I miss deer between 12 and 17 yards? Just doing a lot of shooting didn't help.

Deer present pressure for me because I don't have a decent place to hunt. If I get a shot, it may very well be the only one of the season. If I miss a squirrel, I just go find another one. I hit the squirrel and miss the deer. It would help if there were more deer around. LOL

It occurred to me that my misses on deer showed all the classic signs and symptoms of what is described as target panic. 

There's been improvement but I'm still kind of frustrated by the fact that I know what the shot feels like when I'm shooting my best but it's hard to identify what I'm doing different when it doesn't feel right. 

At this point, I'm not necessarily trying to shoot as good as you or Jimmy. I'm just trying to consistently shoot as good as me.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Ken - Are you truly incapable of reading Barneyslayers post and then mine together and seeing that what I am perceiving from his comments are that if you are not looking at the arrow and seeing the problem manifested in front of you then you are ignorant of it going on? Ignorant is not a name calling bad thing as you have clearly taken it. It's simply and honestly not knowing. Knowing and doing it anyway would be stupid but we don't use that word in my house. The kill on a deer is huge and the shots we take down here are close so the margin for error is quite large. My point is that in the hunting scenario you don't have to hit the 11-ring to kill the deer so good enough -- vitals -- is fine. Why are you so defensive and why do you always feel the need to tell everyone that you have beaten me? I really don't understand your defensiveness in this.

Just so you're tracking. Yes, we first shot against one another at Trad Worlds in 2011. You outscored me in 2010 but I was shooting a selfbow and wooden arrows so if you want to compare scores to your Pinnacle feel free. In 2011 you beat me in the IBO Trad Worlds but the scores for the Hunter Challenge are listed below. Oh, and that was my first round on the course. 

"I dunno - but if I would have not out scored Jimmy everytime we have met on the 3D range" Just an honest mistake. It's okay. We all forget sometimes.

REC
Jim Powell	250
Jimmy Blackmon	247
Blake Clark 245
Ken Busalacchi 244
Paul Vogel 243
Danny Clark	243
Spanky Brooks	243
John Wert 242
Jim Fields 242
Dwayne Martin	241
Robby Clark	241
Sam Sandifer	239
Scott Gray	235
Brian Dean	232
Robert Hammand	230
Dan Haire	230
Scott Young	227
Dennis Meaghen	223
John Fort	223
Johnny Hyatt	222
Craig Mattern	220
Tom Busalacchi	217
Edwin Sandifer	216
Robby Clark	216
Bob Wartenberg	215
John Johnston	215
Mitch Miller	213
Danny Atney	213
Glenn Trevallion	212
Russ Hiter	211
Mark Milinovich	208
Wayne Smith	206
Robert Harper	206
Roger Boykin	204
Eric Matthews	204
Rob Boursaw	203
Tim Strickland	203
Steve Wagner	203
Tony Jetton	200
Donnie Balentine	198
Sam Rhudy II	197
Eric Hyman	196
Michael Hebner	196
Tom Quinn	195
Donnie Balentine	194
Bryce Olson	192
Dwight Millsaps	191
Roger Smith	191
Roger Smith	191
Allen Corn	190
John McCarey	187
Mel Milinvoch	187
Jared Neal	186
Trey Clark	185
David Story	185
Clyde Norris	184
Brian Bunkston	182
Mike Stitt	180
John Logan	180
Jack Dingus	179
Ed Alari	179
Roy Phillips	179
Rick Harper	178
Ronald Tucker	178
Trey Clark	177
Roger Preston	175
Barry Cherry	175
Jeff Mayo	172
Brandon Barringer	171
Norman Moore	170
Benjy Epting	170
Brian Fain	165
Chad Balentine	165
Gene Halcom	162
Jacob Hyman	160
Tim Snoddy	160
Allen Corn	159
Bubba Greene	157
Beau Baggett	155
Brandon Barringer	153
Bill Davidson	152
Michael Wyatt	150
Mike Jackson	147
Chase Jones	146
James McLearen	145
John Mongold	145
Larry Weeks	128
Gary Morrison	128
Joe Mcmanus	121
Bill Bigham	91
Jeff Heisler	88
Kevin Lawlor	0


----------



## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Always the victim Ken.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> So many times I've decided to part ways with Archery Talk and let Ken have it, but every time I think of the good folks here and I come back only to find myself in this position yet again. I know where this trail leads so thanks for the comments from those with open minds.


Jimmie,

You are a wealth of knowledge, your efforts are much appreciated, and it is obvious that you have true passion for archery that shows with the amount of time and energy you put into making videos, tutorials, etc.. Your unselfishness in sharing your knowledge has not gone unnoticed.

How an honest discussion about TP turned into a chest beating session is beyond my comprehension, although I will say it makes for interesting reading, this thread has gotten off course. Not sure how any of it contributes to helping someone control target panic.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> No they suck as well - they just suck with precision.
> 
> Matt


LMAO, you just described me


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Jimmie,
> 
> You are a wealth of knowledge, your efforts are much appreciated, and it is obvious that you have true passion for archery that shows with the amount of time and energy you put into making videos, tutorials, etc.. Your unselfishness in sharing your knowledge has not gone unnoticed.
> 
> ...


Yes...

I understand that two good shooters may have a different take on things or a different way of expressing it. Speaking for myself, I'm intersted in hearing all of it.

I don't really care which one of them scored higher on a given day. I'm trying to figure out why I put two arrows in the same hole and blow the third one. LOL I do that very often.

Oh and why I'm having so much trouble with my first few arrows of the day. I hunt (or try to) and the first arrow of the day may be the ONLY one that counts. If only I could get a deer to hang around while I take a few warm up shots.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Bigjono said:


> LMAO, you just described me


Jon myself as well TP is something I work on with every practice session - too bad we can't have a grown up discussion about it. 

Matt


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmie,

I obviously support your videos and efforts to try and share your knowledge and experience with others. I always enjoy them. I support ANYONE who tries to do that.

It's unfortunate that a few people are unwilling or purposely like to take things being said the wrong way and than act like a victim or martyr because they believe they are being picked on. 

In most cases...it's created by semantics and an unwillingness to try and understand one another.

Please don't let a few ruin it it for you. There are plenty of good folks here like you said earlier that need or like to watch your videos and read your thoughts.

So what if everyone doesn't always agree. Getting or having everyone agree is nearly impossible...BUT..there's absolutely NO reason why 2 grown men can't have discussion and be respectful even while having a disagreement.

Ray :shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I had a long response to this stuff - but decided enough of this tit for tat - so I edited it down to this:


In most cases TP seems to me to be an obsession with winning or overly worrying about making a bad shot and this results in an inability to hold the aim.

The best way to never get target panic and to "cure" target panic is to realize that we shoot bows for enjoyment and relaxation - the best way to make archery not fun and relaxing is to obsess over either winning or making a bad shot.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jimmy - your comments were clear and they meant exactly what they said - need I remind you:
> 
> "If you shoot primarily because you are a hunter and 3D is just a tool to get you ready for the season then the alternative should be just fine. You can live in ignorance and accept good enough. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking at all."
> 
> If you want to claim that does not mean what it says it means - have at it.


This post is a PERFECT example of why I ALWAYS try to get people to ask questions rather than making assumptions and/or jumping to conclusions with what someone may have said or tried to say.

Jimmy stated something. Sharp took it a certain way...and instead of Sharp asking Jimmy for clarification...Sharp took it as a personal insult to himself. Jimmy than tries to clarify it...yet Sharp still tries instist he's right.

A perfect example of why some of these threads get derailed!

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I had a long response to this stuff - but decided enough of this tit for tat - so I edited it down to this:


AWESOME! :thumbs_up



sharpbroadhead said:


> In most cases TP seems to me to be an obsession with winning or overly worrying about making a bad shot and this results in an inability to hold the aim.
> 
> The best way to never get target panic and to "cure" target panic is to realize that we shoot bows for enjoyment and relaxation - the best way to make archery not fun and relaxing is to obsess over either winning or making a bad shot.


COMPLETELY AGREE! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I had a long response to this stuff - but decided enough of this tit for tat - so I edited it down to this:
> 
> 
> In most cases TP seems to me to be an obsession with winning or overly worrying about making a bad shot and this results in an inability to hold the aim.


That would be consistant with my experience.


> The best way to never get target panic and to "cure" target panic is to realize that we shoot bows for enjoyment and relaxation - the best way to make archery not fun and relaxing is to obsess over either winning or making a bad shot.


ok but there's not much enjoyment in missing especially if the miss is on the only deer that walks by your stand all season. I haven't been able to relax since I missed that doe back in October.

I never could understand how somebody could enjoy doing something poorly. I enjoy shooting when my arrows find their mark. When they don't, it means a lot of hard work.

I don't think failure is fun.


----------



## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

I had TP with a compound, don't really know how, or y, but blind bailing with eyes closed,up close, and really using back tension while doing so helped me, Also focusing on the spot, more than the peep and pin, more like an instinctive way, if that term is ok to use


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I never could understand how somebody could enjoy doing something poorly. I don't think failure is fun.


ALOT has to do with individual personalities...which is why I ALWAYS discuss how a person's personality should be considered when deciding on the path they want to take.

Some people's expectations are lower or just different than others. A target archer shooting for X's does not necessarily have the same expectations as a bowhunter, who is satisfied with putting an arrow into the kill zone of a deer....which is also why bowhunters and target archers don't always see eye to eye on things regarding form and aiming techniques.

Ray :shade:


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

great report Jimmy . I always learn something from you and your videos. I have to say that I have had or have TP while shooting the compounds which really is the primary reason why i got into Trad 3 summers ago. like sharp I shoot instinctive and have yet to have an issue with TP. im out there to have fun and let my brain and natural ability execute the best shot possible. there is no olympic pressure involved however I have stumbled much more while shooting a 300 round so the pressure to do well is definetely a factor like sharp had talked about. this was a great discussion about something I think alot can relate to


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

MGF said:


> That would be consistant with my experience.
> 
> ok but there's not much enjoyment in missing especially if the miss is on the only deer that walks by your stand all season. I haven't been able to relax since I missed that doe back in October.
> 
> ...


I feel ya. I missed my only shot of the season on opening day, the arrow sailed right over the doe's back as she gracefully jumped the string, ducking what would have been a double lung shot. Since then missed some squirrels, some rabbits, a groundhog and a possum. All were narrowly missed.

I target shoot almost daily and am capable of putting them dead on, and just when all is going well I'll flub a shot. However, I refuse to panic, and can usually figure out the problem and correct it. Form and consistency is everything, but so is being cool, calm, and collected. When I can maintain both I can quickly get back on track. 

As far as the first shot of the day goes, I'll take an unmarked distance cold shot every day for practice, and that has helped me improve that money shot you need when hunting. I try to practice those real life hunting situations so I am prepared. Preparation is the cure for Panic.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I had a long response to this stuff - but decided enough of this tit for tat - so I edited it down to this:
> 
> 
> In most cases TP seems to me to be an obsession with winning or overly worrying about making a bad shot and this results in an inability to hold the aim.
> ...


Nicely said! I think we all are first and foremost trying to have fun. Because if it ain't fun its work! And who wants more work??


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> The whole TP thing got my attention because I missed a few deer that I should have hit. My shooting has always been ok and I've killed a lot of small game with a bow. Then I miss deer between 12 and 17 yards? Just doing a lot of shooting didn't help.
> 
> Deer present pressure for me because I don't have a decent place to hunt. If I get a shot, it may very well be the only one of the season. If I miss a squirrel, I just go find another one. I hit the squirrel and miss the deer. It would help if there were more deer around. LOL
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that's been called 'buck fever' for a long time now. Actually applies to a doe also.:wink: I don't like to equate it with this so called target panic thing though.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> This post is a PERFECT example of why I ALWAYS try to get people to ask questions rather than making assumptions and/or jumping to conclusions with what someone may have said or tried to say.
> 
> Jimmy stated something. Sharp took it a certain way...and instead of Sharp asking Jimmy for clarification...Sharp took it as a personal insult to himself. Jimmy than tries to clarify it...yet Sharp still tries instist he's right.


Why some of what you read here is to be taken in that light:

What Jimmy was saying about competitive shooting: 

_"If you shoot primarily because you are a hunter and 3D is just a tool to get you ready for the season then the alternative should be just fine. You can live in ignorance and *accept good enough*. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking at all_." 

What Sharp has always told us about the problem with having non-competitive "fun" shoots like Compton's: 

"_For me personally - I was shooting back in the '90s and averaging a 6 or so on each target and was winning every local shoot I went to - and had guys telling me that I shot really good for traditional - and I guess I figured I must have been - it was not until I attended my first big *competetive *traditional archery shoot that I realized what the real potential of this sport is - and since then I have no come to where I average in the high 8's and low 9's on virtually any course I shoot. Had I not had the opportunity to see the score of really good shooters - I would have been *satisifed with my* *mediocre* shooting_."

Just part of one of the "we need to raise the bar" lectures.

Let's just ignore the fact that "now", for this discussion, score keeping and competition is the bane of traditional archery 




> A perfect example of why some of these threads get derailed!


Agreed~


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

MGF said:

"ok but there's not much enjoyment in missing especially if the miss is on the only deer that walks by your stand all season. I haven't been able to relax since I missed that doe back in October.

I never could understand how somebody could enjoy doing something poorly. I enjoy shooting when my arrows find their mark. When they don't, it means a lot of hard work.

I don't think failure is fun."

MGF - everyone misses - everyone - no matter how good you are - you are going to make bad shots - as long as you don't let that bad shot drag you down - and remind yourself that it is all for fun - it shouldn't bother you too much.

I hunt for meat and fun - but if I don't get the meat - I will not starve - it is still for fun. Sure - I get upset if I miss - but what I do is try to figure why it happened - with my years of experience I can usually figure out why I missed - but not always - somethings it just happens.

The key is to not let it get to you - that silly old saying applies: "any day hunting or shooting my bow is a better day than working"

How we deal with losing and winning is a key to avoiding TP - winning can lead to target panic more often than losing.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Sanford - nice derail - and I have said always that the reason for competitive shoots is so that one can see the posted scores and know what is possible - to set a realistic goal - not to win - and yes - if you were not so clouded by your dislike for me - you would see that your quote of mine fits in perfectly with my previous points - I shoot primarily for hunting and use 3D as a means to prepare for hunting - and guess what - I am not ignorant and satisified with "good enough" - I strive to shoot better everytime I shoot - but not better than you or Jimmy or anyone else - but better than myself - and one cannot strive for a goal if one does not know what it is - and the only way to know what is possible is to see how you shoot compared to the best in the sport - then you know what is possible and to strive to be the best you can towards that goal. When I have a deer in front of me - I want to make the best shot I possibly can - for the sake of the animal and for the sake of me - finding it. The other thing about competitive shoots is that you are shooting with and around other shooters and your end score along with your name is there for all the world to see - and this ads an element of pressure - which helps me mentally prepare for the pressure I feel when I am about to shoot a deer.


----------



## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

Well written Jimmy


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

My doe was at 17 yards, slightly quartering away and looking the other way...in other words, EXACTLY perfect. It wasn't even cold outside. Sometimes I've blamed it on being frozen. She didn't even see it coming and never moved until after the arrow was in the dirt. When I drew the bow it felt completely unfamiliar as if it were my first time. Completely lost, I let the arrow go and it sailed clean over her back.

17 yards just happens to be my favorite distance just because that's the distance from the end of my picnick table to the target. It's convenient so I do a LOT of shooting from there.

This wouldn't be so frustrating if I always shot like crap. Then I would know that I just have to learn how to shoot but I can pile them on top of each other one minute and then be all over the place the next minute. When that happens (and it will happen one or more times during any shooting day) I don't feel like I have any control and I don't feel like I know what to do about it. There's certainly no reason to have any confidence.

A while back I had a couple of weeks straight of great shooting. I mean hundreds and undreds of arrows without a miss bad enough to worry about. I thought I'd finally learned something or corrected something that was key. Then, it just went away.

At this point I would have to put a thoudsand or so arrows where I want them to convince myself that I have any control over what's going on.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Sharp, I surely have no dislike or beef with you. In keeping with the discussion, since competition and scoring is within the TP realm, if nobody should be trying to compete, or adding that pressure but just having fun and comparing scores, what's the comparison of scores called? 

Applying standard logic, even trying to reach the score of Jimmy is "competing" with him, whether it's posted somewhere or not. Otherwise, I don't need Jimmy's score for anything. I just compare against my previous and try to do better than my previous score. But, that's competing against myself. Just wondering where the "shooting for fun" ends and the "competition" factor begins in your analysis on raising the bar for traditional shooters.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> I feel ya. I missed my only shot of the season on opening day, the arrow sailed right over the doe's back as she gracefully jumped the string, ducking what would have been a double lung shot. Since then missed some squirrels, some rabbits, a groundhog and a possum. All were narrowly missed.
> 
> I target shoot almost daily and am capable of putting them dead on, and just when all is going well I'll flub a shot. However, I refuse to panic, and can usually figure out the problem and correct it. Form and consistency is everything, but so is being cool, calm, and collected. When I can maintain both I can quickly get back on track.
> 
> As far as the first shot of the day goes, I'll take an unmarked distance cold shot every day for practice, and that has helped me improve that money shot you need when hunting. I try to practice those real life hunting situations so I am prepared. Preparation is the cure for Panic.



I beliee you managed to explain a lot here. This target panic thing seems to be based on an inability to maintain that cool in a pressure situation. But, since I've never had such a condition I probably just don't understand how it works. I'm pretty sure everyones exitement level increases when they see a deer. The bigger the deer the more the exitement. If deer are rather scarce as on poster said,the more the exitement. Some people are better at controlling it than others and hunting experience seems to help too.
However,if a person is incapable of drawing a bow and releasing an arrow because they are so afraid they will mess it up,then I am convinced there are other more serious issues at play. They can call it target panic till hell freezes over if they like. It's a simple mechanical function and most any child can do it given the opportunity. For adults to say they let a simple function get the best of them seems strange to me. Don't get me wrong,I do understand that a competitive situation produces a reaction that could be equated to buck fever. But unable to draw the string and hold it until you are ready to let it go,not so sure about that. I have to wonder how such a person could drive a car and I sure hope hope they don't try to fly airplanes. I would also bet that the same people could pick up a rock or stick or almost any object,hold it for a specified amount of time and then drop it no matter if they decided it for themselves or if someone else instructed them to do so, without getting all worked up over the simple function.
Is it a control issue? I don't know,but I do think they might want to reconsider their choice of playing with sharp objects.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

no Sanford - first off I never tried to reach Jimmy's score - I was shooting competitive long before I ever head of him and we shoot at the same level anyhow. My logic is that when a guy goes to a non-compete shoot where no scores are posted - he leaves that shoot not knowing what is possible - if he goes to a competitive shoot and scores say a 180 and the top shooter scores a 260 on the same course - he now knows that he has a lot of room for improvement and a realistic goal to strive for. When I go to a competitive shoot I don't go to win - I go to shoot the best I can - if I dn't win I am not upset in the least and I have never went to shoot to win it - if I do that is great - but that has never been my purpose for going to a shoot. - but this is off topic - so lets drop it - if you want to discuss the merits of competitive shoots verses competitive shooters who are out to win - start a new thread and I will join the discussion there - this is about TP


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> My doe was at 17 yards, slightly quartering away and looking the other way...in other words, EXACTLY perfect. It wasn't even cold outside. Sometimes I've blamed it on being frozen. She didn't even see it coming and never moved until after the arrow was in the dirt. When I drew the bow it felt completely unfamiliar as if it were my first time. Completely lost, I let the arrow go and it sailed clean over her back.
> 
> 17 yards just happens to be my favorite distance just because that's the distance from the end of my picnick table to the target. It's convenient so I do a LOT of shooting from there.
> 
> ...



Loss of concentration,focus. Plain and simple and can happen to anyone.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Speaking of high school - I never got into high school sports - to me they served no purpose - practice day after day to throw a ball - to what end - to win a game -a game that in reality means nothing? I never got into watching or playing sports - seemed silly to me - then when I was in my mid 20's my boss talked me into trying hunting - at the time money was tight and we could use the meat - so I went - I shot a trophy buck in the first five minutes hunting in my life - it was awesome.
> 
> I really don't understand why these target guys don't post their stuff in the FITA forum - that is more geared to guys who are out to "win".
> 
> But anyhow - I doubt that I will ever get target panic - because I don't care if I win or not - what I do care about is shooting the best that I can under pressure - because there is no pressure like a big buck in front of me - but the next best thing is shooting with other people in a competitive format.


In reading through this thread these two statements struck me as hilarious.

Sharp - I encourage my kids to do high schools sports because it teaches them to work and interact with others an important life skill.

Why is it if winning isn't important to you that you incessantly bring up the fact that you won the Pop up challenge and beat Jimmy in some 3D shoots?? I think this tread was the first time Jimmy has ever posted a score. Also infer that Jimmy isn't a hunter is patently ridiculous - do a search for the last 10 posts he has started - I haven't but I will guess that better than half of them will have to do with hunting and or building self bows

As far as instinctive guys getting TP - that little limb tip waggle that you see in some instructional videos - That is a form of TP - it ain't always glaringly obvious.

Matt


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Loss of concentration,focus. Plain and simple and can happen to anyone.


yep - it has happened to me and all of my hunting buddies at one time or another - even with rifles!

And Matt - the only time I have brought up some of my competitive accomplishments is to illustrate that intinctive shooting or shooting for fun and with hunting as a primary goal is just as effective as any other method of shooting - and btw - I never infered that Jimmy was not a hunter - and this is not the first thread that Jimmy has ever posted a score - he had done so many times.


----------



## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Is it that hard for some folks to see the positives? Really?


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> In reading through this thread these two statements struck me as hilarious.
> 
> Sharp - I encourage my kids to do high schools sports because it teaches them to work and interact with others an important life skill.
> 
> ...



Help. I got lost on the limb tip waggle part as being a form of TP. What am I missing here? I don't even know what TP is but starting to think it can be anything and possibly everything to some people. Aw I missed,gotta be the TP. wouldn't that be a form of an excuse for missing? Justification for any error?
Then again,for people who lose control of themselves so easily maybe it's good to have some excuse.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Read a lot of posts surely not all there are so many. Just to add from my own experiences. I have never suffered the ailment in compound or recurve. I am just not a good enough archer to be on the line for the win and so don't encounter pressure in that way. It is just something I love to do how ever poorly I some times do it I enjoy it. Now when I am shooting a bow with too much draw weight be it a compound or recurve I don't tend to aim as well or release as well. If the draw weight is ten pounds too high with a recurve snap shooting comes in soon after. We all usually call this overbowed not target panic which I think is exactly what it is and I think this is far more common in traditional shooting than target panic. I think it could easily feed the illness but for me it is just an inability to hold at full draw. Not mental physical. I think there have even been posts on this thread of the same thing. I don't call it target panic but it is a lack of control of the shot and it can greatly hurt any form of shooting.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Mo0se said:


> Is it that hard for some folks to see the positives? Really?



Once again in my simple minded ignorance,lost. What positives? On the other hand what negatives? What is the question? Really.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MrSinister said:


> Read a lot of posts surely not all there are so many. Just to add from my own experiences. I have never suffered the ailment in compound or recurve. I am just not a good enough archer to be on the line for the win and so don't encounter pressure in that way. It is just something I love to do how ever poorly I some times do it I enjoy it. Now when I am shooting a bow with too much draw weight be it a compound or recurve I don't tend to aim as well or release as well. If the draw weight is ten pounds too high with a recurve snap shooting comes in soon after. We all usually call this overbowed not target panic which I think is exactly what it is and I think this is far more common in traditional shooting than target panic. I think it could easily feed the illness but for me it is just an inability to hold at full draw. Not mental physical. I think there have even been posts on this thread of the same thing. I don't call it target panic but it is a lack of control of the shot and it can greatly hurt any form of shooting.



That's just too logical. :wink:
Mr Sinister, I think you have it and don't know it. It's everywhere and extremely hard for most of us to recognize. You may need professional help and don't even know it.:zip:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Forest - TP takes many forms - some guys blink rapidly - some guys wiggle their bow before they release - lots and lots of archers target and hunter alike have TP - buck fever is a form of TP.

Matt


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

My bad sorry won't happen again :wink:


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I've known a javelin thrower who ended up not being able to release the javelin, world champion dart throwers retire due to dartitis, golfers going to weird and wonderful putters and styles due to the yips, a sprinter who couldn't stay in his blocks without twitching etc etc. all forms of mental blocks like TP and all manifest in different ways.
Not every miss is down to TP and to be honest most of us wouldn't wish iton ourselves or others, it can ruin your enjoyment of the sport so for someone to say we happily blame every miss on it is the kind of flippant dumb response you come to expect.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Loss of concentration,focus. Plain and simple and can happen to anyone.


You're right. I've been shooting since it got light and doing better. I have to aim until the arrow hits the target without throwing the shot away. It's that simple.

I'm sure there are form improvements that could shave a little more off but they aren't "the problem".


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> I've known a javelin thrower who ended up not being able to release the javelin, world champion dart throwers retire due to dartitis, golfers going to weird and wonderful putters and styles due to the yips, a sprinter who couldn't stay in his blocks without twitching etc etc. all forms of mental blocks like TP and all manifest in different ways.
> Not every miss is down to TP and to be honest most of us wouldn't wish iton ourselves or others, it can ruin your enjoyment of the sport so for someone to say we happily blame every miss on it is the kind of flippant dumb response you come to expect.


Some of those stories are amazing and tragic all at the same time...which is AGAIN another perfect example of how anxiety and any other negative distracting thoughts can effect people differently.

Some of my friends and I would try to make light of the topic by coming up with exaggerated symptoms to out do one another on who had it the worst. For example....one guy claimed he had it so bad he couldn't even string his bow up.

TP sucks!

But there are ways to manage it...and for some people....even cure it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I'm pretty sure that's been called 'buck fever' for a long time now. Actually applies to a doe also.:wink: I don't like to equate it with this so called target panic thing though.


Well, ok. But just as other words in archery - snapshooting, target panic, instinctive, etc. can have multiple meanings, so can buck fever. 

1) the involuntary increase in heart rate and breathing caused by seeing the animal show up, and potentially present itself for a shot (it's the reason for your being there, and the object of your immediate desires). You have no conscious control over this type of buck fever. I hope I never lose that kind of buck fever, and really, I don't think any real hunter ever does.

2) Any involuntary movement over which you normally should have conscious control - a punch, bowhand movement, etc. This is what many (not all) would call target panic, and that is something any self-respecting archer would love to do without. The majority of my clientele know all about this particular definition - it's them. Some of those guys have literally blown up bows at the moment of execution. 

So I'm not going to quibble - anybody can call it whatever they want to call it. All I know is that I hold myself out as someone who can help with target panic, and a lot of guys who end up using my _Solution_, tell me their problem is buck fever.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> Well, ok. But just as other words in archery - snapshooting, target panic, instinctive, etc. can have multiple meanings, so can buck fever.
> 
> 1) the involuntary increase in heart rate and breathing caused by seeing the animal show up, and potentially present itself for a shot (it's the reason for your being there, and the object of your immediate desires). You have no conscious control over this type of buck fever. I hope I never lose that kind of buck fever, and really, I don't think any real hunter ever does.
> 
> ...



Ok,I am good with all that. Buck fever is a good thing but for a bowhunter to make more out of it than that seems far fetched. Suppose a gun hunter had TP and every time a deer approached him he raised his gun and just had to shoot it,no matter what, when the stock touches his shoulder,boom,even if the deer is behind a tree. Can't help himself. I just don't see that happening. Never have heard of it either and I have been around a long time. And I certainly hope I never hunt around someone with this TP.
What did you mean by "literally blown up bows"? Did it mean they had a bow to 'blow up' on them before and left them with a flinch or what?


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> You're right. I've been shooting since it got light and doing better. I have to aim until the arrow hits the target without throwing the shot away. It's that simple.
> 
> I'm sure there are form improvements that could shave a little more off but they aren't "the problem".



Aim until the arrow hits the target. Meaning keep you focus on the target. Most of seem to have wandering eyes and so we sometimes have to invent ways to stay focused where we want the arrow to hit. In my case I look for something really small to call the 'target. Keeps me focused.


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

I think some of you guys are copy n pasting stuff out of a book somewhare instead of useing your own knowledge and persoanl experience, snap shooting is not an incident of TP, most guys I know that do or have done that were taught that way or didnt know any other way how to shoot it, i know a guy who has never had TP issues ever and can shoot the socks off of me at any range but when he picks up a stickbow guess what he does, he snap shoots, because thats his style , the only style he ever knew to do.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> snap shooting is not an incident of TP


Do you believe that statement is true for ALL archers who Snap Shoot based on understanding BOTH the definitions and meanings to that term?

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm sitting here chuckling cause ya'll know what this reminds me of?....1987...when i first heard the term "Target Panic"...and the person who spoke those words immediately got a stink eye response from every seasoned archer under the pole barn that day (about 5 of'em) and i didn't understand why cause that was the first time i ever heard the term...and when my mentor/coach and i got off to the side i said.."wow...that was harsh"...he asked "what?",,,i said "the way ya'll treated that guy for saying the words "target panic""..he muttered something about the guy should know better..cause that term?..is not to be spoken..it's "TABOO"...and brings down bad mojo upon the ears of those who hear it.

a few years later?...i had it. :laugh:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> a few years later?...i had it. :laugh:


Hmmmmm...coincidence or fate? :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Hmmmmm...coincidence or fate? :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


"FATE"...that was an easy one! :laugh:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

airwolf said:


> I think some of you guys are copy n pasting stuff out of a book somewhare instead of useing your own knowledge and persoanl experience, snap shooting is not an incident of TP, most guys I know that do or have done that were taught that way or didnt know any other way how to shoot it, i know a guy who has never had TP issues ever and can shoot the socks off of me at any range but when he picks up a stickbow guess what he does, he snap shoots, because thats his style , the only style he ever knew to do.


Exactly - that is what I have been trying to say - but hey - what do we know - we are not in the "in crowd" -


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you believe that statement is true for ALL archers who Snap Shoot based on understanding BOTH the definitions and meanings to that term?
> 
> Ray :shade:


No I dont and I didnt say all archers, I was just useing one example of someone I personally know and shoot with, someone who has been shooting bows alot longer then I have and is a proven hotshot, not so much with the stickbow but not because of anything called target panic either.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

airwolf said:


> No I dont and I didnt say all archers, I was just useing one example of someone I personally know and shoot with, *someone who has been shooting bows alot longer then I have and is a proven hotshot, not so much with the stickbow but* not because of anything called target panic either.


hold the phone and stop the presses..wait a second here...wolfy?...are you saying this hotshot is snap-shooting wheelbows?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> No I dont.


Which is exactly why I asked...FIRST :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you believe that statement is true for ALL archers who Snap Shoot based on understanding BOTH the definitions and meanings to that term?
> 
> Ray :shade:


this is one of the classic examples of why I usually refuse to get involved with any of your debates, I know how you like to overthink things or try to make the other guy look bad.
does instinctive aiming and instinctive shooting ring a bell? I can see why sharp gets disgusted at times on here, but thats ok I still respect and appreciate your comments, I have no choice right?


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> hold the phone and stop the presses..wait a second here...wolfy?...are you saying this hotshot is snap-shooting wheelbows?


wheelbows? Jinks you cant be serious ,lol. No


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> this is one of the classic examples of why I usually refuse to get involved with any of your debates, I know how you like to overthink things or try to make the other guy look bad.


I definitely overthink things at times...but you nor anyone else should have a problem with that. It's just part of my personality and should be no reflection upon you.

As far as myself trying to make others look bad....THAT could NOT be further from the truth. I try to show everyside of a debate that has evidence to support those opinions. I DO NOT purposely try to make anyone look bad...unless they continually are dishing out disrespectful comments or are acting like victims anytime someone disagrees with them. In many cases it's a matter of someone making assumptions when they should be asking questions.



airwolf said:


> does instinctive aiming and instinctive shooting ring a bell?


Instinctive Aiming and Shooting has been filled with controversy and misunderstanding...and all I try to do is share a sport's science interpretation to it to explain what it is and is not. If someone feels offended, threatened or insecure about that...I can't help that. That's their issue.



airwolf said:


> I can see why sharp gets disgusted at times on here, but thats ok I still respect and appreciate your comments, I have no choice right?


You always have a choice.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> wheelbows? Jinks you cant be serious ,lol. No


I thought and wondered the same thing as Jinks when I read your post.

He did GOOD asking you first :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

"Instinctive aiming is filled with controversy and misunderstanding"??? Only to those who don't do it, didn't stick with it, or come to the net for advice on how to do it. It's a process that's pretty black and white. Some will do it better than others, some don't need to do it at all. Speck


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> "Instinctive aiming is filled with controversy and misunderstanding"??? Only to those who don't do it, didn't stick with it, or come to the net for advice on how to do it. It's a process that's pretty black and white. Some will do it better than others, some don't need to do it at all. Speck


hard to argue with that


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I thought and wondered the same thing as Jinks when I read your post.
> 
> He did GOOD asking you first :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


sorry I figured common sense would tell you what I was talking about in the previous post. I will try to be more specific next time


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Rick Welch in his own video demonstrated and described what he believed Instinctive Aiming was...and what he described as Instinctive Aiming was NO different than how many Gap Shooters aim.

Even archers who believe they know what the differences are have shown they really don't completely understand...so there's still controversy and misunderstanding even amoung Instinctive shooters...just as there is some misunderstanding and controversy on what is Snap Shooting.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> sorry I figured common sense would tell you what I was talking about in the previous post. I will try to be more specific next time


I personally don't like to assume anything about anybody...so as Jinks did...I prefer to ask questions when something is worded weird or I don't fully understand what someone is trying to say because how they are saying it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ray, it would be better for you, apparently, to not discuss intinctive archery. Conscious aiming never enters the process. Sorry. Speck


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Speck1 said:


> "Instinctive aiming is filled with controversy and misunderstanding"??? Only to those who don't do it, didn't stick with it, or come to the net for advice on how to do it. It's a process that's pretty black and white. Some will do it better than others, some don't need to do it at all. Speck


that was very well put...several sundays ago i was at my oldest daughters house for dinner..wasn't feeling real well..laying on the love seat watching a football game with the son-in-law sitting across the room on the couch...the 2 year old grandson was walking around with a full bottle throwing a fit about something...saw him coming out of my periphial...then from about 3 feet away seen his bottle arm cock back..even seen the son-in-law start to smirk (thinking he knew what he was going to get to see next)...and without ever taking my eyes off the game?..my right hand shot out at like reflex warp speed just in the nick of time to catch the 60mph baby bottle released from about a foot away..his hand to mine...i smiled..stuffed the bottle back in his mouth..told him.."no-no...stop that"..as his fathers chin was sagging down on his chest at what he had just witnessed happening. :laugh:

i think it was.."instinctive"...cause i was "burning a hole" in that game! :laugh:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> Ray, it would be better for you, apparently, to not discuss intinctive archery. Conscious aiming never enters the process. Sorry. Speck


The conscious mind ABSOLUTELY DOES play a roll in Instinctive Aiming and every other aiming technique. When an archer is visually picking a target and looking at it...the archer is in FACT consciously focusing on the target....so there IS an element of consciousness involved with Instinctive Aiming.

There are different levels of consciousness/conscious awareness which often get's over-looked or missunderstood.

The more time an archer holds anchor, the more time the archer adjusts their sight picture, the closer the archer's aiming reference/references are to their direct line of sight...the harder it is for an archer to not become consciously aware of how they are aiming, their aiming reference/references and making adjustments to their sight picture.

A simple test is to have someone point at an object with their finger and see how long an individual can point at the object without consciously becoming visually aware of their finger at some level or another.

It can vary from person to person...which is why there is NO definite set time an archer can hold anchor and still be aiming Instinctively...but when an archer swings their bow up in one fluid movement and Snap Shoots in a controlled manner...there really is no doubt what aiming technique their using.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ray, do you shoot instinctive? Speck


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> What did you mean by "literally blown up bows"? Did it mean they had a bow to 'blow up' on them before and left them with a flinch or what?


This fellow told me he flinched so violently that the cable came off the cam, and the cam itself ended up trashed. He also told me he was ready to give up bowhunting about that time. Subsequently, Slick informed me that he was up to 12 for 12 on the piggies, and if you hunt those critters, you have to know that ain't easy to do (that is to say, feral hogs tend not to bleed as much as deer, and often the tracking itself can be a real adventure).

_I got out this Saturday between rain showers and put a 35 yard shot on another pig... I'm 4 for 4 since I got [AJ's] CD. Best of all this last shot was [executed], and the arrow went right where I was holding my pin and I didn't even realize it until afterwards... Didn't even think about it until I was on the blood trail, which was pretty short. I guess I'm not a skeptic now. This has really worked for me. Thanks! - (SaltwaterSlick at http://TexasBowhunter.com)_


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> Ray, do you shoot instinctive? Speck


Yes...but not as well as I would like.

I've taught myself to aim Instinctive, Gapstinctive/Gap, Split Vision and Point of Aim and I use the aiming technique that I believe will help me hit my target under the specific circumstance I'm shooting in.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You chose to not master one technique?? Speck


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> You chose to not master one technique?? Speck


Yes and No.

I chose to master my bow and be able to shoot at just about any target that my arrow can reach and hit it.

That has been my primary goal for a long time.

I want to be able to perform trick shots, bowhunt deer, elk, rabbits and birds, compete in archery tournaments and be able to make shots at 150yrds. or more...so I knew...there wasn't going to be JUST one aiming technique for me...unless I was some kind of superhuman...which I'm not...so I learned what I had to to make those kinds of shots under the circumstances I would be shooting in.

My primary aiming technique I use for most of my shots is Gapstinctive/Gap.

Ray :shade:


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I think that a lot of folks who shoot 'instinctive', use the force, burn a hole, etc... or claim to anyway... confuse gap shooting with point of aim. I have heard at least a half dozen on this site say things like they dont see how a person can shoot looking somewhere else than the target or focusing on the arrow point the whole time. People think that gap shooters do this and are mistaken... when in fact, they never really look at the point with their foveas, but instead see it in their peripheral vision only, like a compound shooter with a bubble level on his sight or one of those 'no peep' devices that helps you line up. The eyes really never deviate from the intended point of impact of the arrow. 

Point of aim is where you are looking somewhere other than the intended target, lining up your point with that and letting her rip. I do point of aim when I am tuning bare shafts and broadheads to ensure my impact point is as close to identical as possible, but when I aim at a target or deer, I am only really seeing the intended impact point with the arrow low in my peripheral vision. The only and I reiterate only difference between a gapper and 'instinctive' shooter is the fact that I consciously pay attention to the location of the arrow in my peripheral vision, or at least admit that I can see it in my peripheral vision. As an eye doctor, I will tell you all one absolute certainty... any normal human with normal vision can see the arrow when at full draw whether they admit it or not. You 'use the force' guys only ignore it consiously, but your brain still uses it as a reference whether you like it or not. I may not be a true gapper bc I dont try to measure my gaps like Jimmy does, but am thinking about starting to do that bc I tend to shoot high at random times for no apparent reason. I do know that when my point is about 6" under a deer's hooves, I tend to hit the heart on my Rhinehart target. 

Dave


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Speck1 said:


> "Instinctive aiming is filled with controversy and misunderstanding"??? Only to those who don't do it, didn't stick with it, or come to the net for advice on how to do it. It's a process that's pretty black and white. Some will do it better than others, some don't need to do it at all. Speck


Amen and I really wish that the poeple who don't do it, tried and failed at it, or view it as inferior to other methods would just leave it alone and stop commenting about it.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Speck you are not going to get anywhere with him.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I like that most who started out that way, instinctive, finally grow out of it as the sole aiming method in their archery and come to post about it and their other archery aiming techniques. I know when I started, I assumed an archer should adopt one method and stay with it. So, I shot and still do shoot instinctive. But, once you start to grow in archery, you learn that instinctive is just one of the aiming methods like many, which comes with its own set of benefits and limitations. Unless one wants to stay a one-trick-pony in archery, learning your full potential takes an open mind to the experiences and methods of others, along with some investigation and trial.

Thanks again, Jimmy.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Sanford said:


> I like that most who started out that way, instinctive, finally grow out of it as the sole aiming method in their archery and come to post about it and their other archery aiming techniques. I know when I started, I assumed an archer should adopt one method and stay with it. So, I shot and still do shoot instinctive. But, once you start to grow in archery, you learn that instinctive is just one of the aiming methods like many, which comes with its own set of benefits and limitations. Unless one wants to stay a one-trick-pony in archery, learning your full potential takes an open mind to the experiences and methods of others, along with some investigation and trial..


:thumbs_up

An open mind leads to broader horizons.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Sanford said:


> I like that most who started out that way, instinctive, finally grow out of it as the sole aiming method in their archery and come to post about it and their other archery aiming techniques. I know when I started, I assumed an archer should adopt one method and stay with it. So, I shot and still do shoot instinctive. But, once you start to grow in archery, you learn that instinctive is just one of the aiming methods like many, which comes with its own set of benefits and limitations. Unless one wants to stay a one-trick-pony in archery, learning your full potential takes an open mind to the experiences and methods of others, along with some investigation and trial.
> 
> Thanks again, Jimmy.


Another uncalled for dig at instinctive shooters - this is what derails and ruins threads - comments like this are meant for the sole purpose of pissing off instinctive shooters - and this is the stuff that the moderators should put a stop too - not people who merely disagree or have a different view on things, rather people who post stuff in this manner that is clearly meant for one thing and on thing only - to start crap.

Guys like myself, speck, Rick welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... do not need to grow out of anything - we shoot the way we want and do just fine at it.

Can you imagine if I posted this the other way around and said that guys who shoot all sorts of different aiming methods need to grow out of their need to constantly find some magic formula or some imagined competitive edge and just stick to one method and master it?

What is the point of these comments - if not to just sto start or perpetuate an argument?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

What some people keep ignoring or not ackowledging is...people are made up of different PERSONALITIES...and these different PERSONALITIES will NOT always follow someone else's goals.

Not everyone wants to shoot X's at 20yrds. and score at least a 270 on a NFAA 300 round. Not everyone wants to be able to hit a target at 150yrds. Not everyone wants to perform trick shots. Not everyone wants to bowhunt.

Each person will most likely have different goals, expectations and abilities....this is also one of the major reasons why some people will get TP and others won't.

Some PERSONALITIES have set their goals at putting the first arrow into the kill zone of a deer from 20yrds. and under.

Should one PERSONALITY be forced to believe they are inferior or arrogant for having a particular goal or a different set of standards?

For heaven's sake...NO!

I aim the way I do because it fits MY GOALS, PERSONALITY and ABILITIES...which I don't expect everyone to share with me...and if someone doesn't share my goals...I do NOT think anything less of them.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Guys like myself, speck, Rick welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... do not need to grow out of anything - we shoot the way we want and do just fine at it.


I said I shoot instinctive too, so I'm in the same company and would not be taking a dig at myself. Personally, any man who takes comments about an aiming system to a personal level must... well, that's just not what grown men should be getting offended at.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well - now I am getting back to my latin - for you guys who said you had it in high school - see if I got this right about this thread:


De asini vmbra disceptare


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

It translates: To argue about the shadow of an ass. (petty things for petty mind) 



Gee Whiz! That was extremely condescending—even for you. 

Here…. try this in your studies.


olla vocationis lebete niger


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Amen and I really wish that the poeple who don't do it, tried and failed at it, or view it as inferior to other methods would just leave it alone and stop commenting about it.





sharpbroadhead said:


> Guys like myself, speck, Rick welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... do not need to grow out of anything - we shoot the way we want and do just fine at it.


Ken you shoot for only one goal, short range 3D/Bowhunting, people using multi aiming methods are shooting multi disciplinesand longer distances, just because an archer decides to add gap method to their Instinctive skills doesnt mean they *failed* at Instinctive aiming, that comment you made is pretty inflamatory/offensive in itself.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> De asini vmbra disceptare


I don't get it. I did a google translate, and I still don't get it...


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

as ever ... well played Mr Casto

again AT becomes the kiddies pool of internet archery forums ...

Such a wealth of information and experiences distorted by the arrogance that every post , however mistakenly , is a dig at anyone or a certain shooting style .

So lame ...

Perhaps , call me crazy , as we are not 4 years old ... when we see a post that we believed inflames our dignity , shooting style or dress sense ... particularly when posted by some one with whom we have argued before ... perhaps just don't post or reply ? 

A shame Jimmy's post got dragged into the same old silliness .....


----------



## drifter410 (May 7, 2010)

man this place is a zoo i am done with archery talk.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> This is really getting silly now - I get instant feedback too - the arrow either goes where it is supposed to or it doesn't - and I know instantly - and to claim that the need for a defnition of snap shooting is derailing is absurd - if two people have two different understands of what a term or phrase means - how can you have an intelligent discussion - which is what this thread is supposed to be - a discussion - you cannot have a discussion without a common understanding of the definition of the terms in the discussion.
> 
> And for Jimmy to now claim that those of us who shoot for the primary puprose of hunting and use 3D as tool to be the best bowhunters we can are "living in ignorance" and accepting "good enough" is absurd and a comment meant as one thing a dig!
> 
> ...


The first sentence of this post is very telling and the strongest argument against someone claiming to be an "instinctive" shooter. Getting feedback is learning and by getting feedback, you change your aim to compensate for that feedback. That, ladies and gentlemen is conscious aiming, pure and simple. There is no such thing as instinctive archery, except for the first arrow you ever shoot.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> ALOT has to do with individual personalities...which is why I ALWAYS discuss how a person's personality should be considered when deciding on the path they want to take.
> 
> Some people's expectations are lower or just different than others. A target archer shooting for X's does not necessarily have the same expectations as a bowhunter, who is satisfied with putting an arrow into the kill zone of a deer....which is also why bowhunters and target archers don't always see eye to eye on things regarding form and aiming techniques.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray. I think you just confused the situation a lot wit this statement. Whether a person is trying for x's or to hit the vitals of an animal, form and aiming techniques are always a factor, or should be.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray. I think you just confused the situation a lot wit this statement. Whether a person is trying for x's or to hit the vitals of an animal, form and aiming techniques are always a factor, or should be.


I think you maybe reading into something that's not there...so it would help me to help you if you asked me what specifically you would like clarified 

I'll try to reword my thoughts to see if it helps clarify them more for you. 

Form and aiming are often shaped by the individual's goals, personality and abilities. I believe BOTH form and aiming factor into the development of an archer.

A bowhunter who has great natural hand and eye coordination, who has decided to limit his shots to 20yrds. and under and prefers to stalk his prey may have a completely different look to his form than a field archer, who competes while shooting at targets from 5yrds. to 80yrds. or an archer that just wants to compete in NFAA 300 competitions.

Why is that?

Ray :shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

My quote means that we are debating about things that really mean nothing(ie "arguing about the shadow of an ass (donkey)" and Jim's pretty much means the pot calling the kettle black or that I was calling the kettle black - it is starting to work - the Rosetta Stone that is - though I have to admit - my phrase was from a book of common phrases used by the ancient Romans - and the phrase I used was their way of saying that people were arguing about nothing or silly things.  How Jim figures that was condscending I don't know - if it was it included me - because I engaged in it as well. BTW Jim - I figured your quote out by myself - enough of your words are in the vocabulary I have already learned in just a few weeks with Rosetta Stone to figure it out.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> "Instinctive aiming is filled with controversy and misunderstanding"??? Only to those who don't do it, didn't stick with it, or come to the net for advice on how to do it. It's a process that's pretty black and white. Some will do it better than others, some don't need to do it at all. Speck


Those that don't do it and those that didn't stick with it were the ones that continued to improve their shooting ability. Those that still stick with it are those who are stuck on a plateau they will never get off of.If your goal in life is to just shoot with no improvement, then by all means shoot your bow without thinking. It seems to me that just being able to say "I shoot without consciously aiming" is a badge of honor to some on here. It certainly won't lead to too many trophies (either man made or animal).


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> The first sentence of this post is very telling and the strongest argument against someone claiming to be an "instinctive" shooter. Getting feedback is learning and by getting feedback, you change your aim to compensate for that feedback. That, ladies and gentlemen is conscious aiming, pure and simple. There is no such thing as instinctive archery, except for the first arrow you ever shoot.


Itbeso,

Unfortunately it appears you're stuck on semantics rather than what it means to be truly aiming Instinctively as the word is used to describe a specific and unique way to aim a barebow. 

Call it Point and Shoot. Call it Bend Over and Fart. I really don't care. The aiming technique that has been named Instinctive does in fact exist as a unique and different way to aim a barebow that deserves a name to help describe it.

There is no where in the description of Instinctive Aiming that says an archer can not learn anything from their misses or hits.

When an archer truly aims Instinctively and misses. They are consciously aware of their miss and than hope that there body compensates correctly at a subconscious/unconscious level during the next shot.

Do you believe all archers that claim to be aiming Instinctively are really not aiming any differently than you do? 

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I think you maybe reading into something that's not there...so it would help me to help you if you asked me what specifically you would like clarified
> 
> I'll try to reword my thoughts to see if it helps clarify them more for you.
> 
> ...


Well, it may be just me but I don't see a change in my form when hunting or shooting targets. Maybe a few more contortions :teeth: when hunting, but basics are the same for me.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Well, it may be just me but I don't see a change in my form when hunting or shooting targets. Maybe a few more contortions :teeth: when hunting, but basics are the same for me.


It's DEFINITELY NOT just you. I'm sure many other archers share your style and technique...but you have also had different goals than many archers who primarily want to just bowhunt...AND...I'm sure you're not exactly mentally wired like everyone else or share the exact same natural abilities.

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Itbeso,
> 
> Unfortunately it appears you're stuck on semantics rather than what it means to be truly aiming Instinctively as the word is used to describe a specific and unique way to aim a barebow.
> 
> ...


Ray, I'm not stuck on semantics at all, and there is not one thing that is specific or unique to aiming a bow by the so Called " Instinctive " method. If you shoot an arrow and it misses, you make a conscious recalibration and shoot the next arrow. This is the way you do it when you are gap shooting, picking a point, or stringwalking. It's not rocket science, but it is a built in excuse for missing. " I shoot instinctive, I don't use those cheating methods of aiming ", personally, I'm tired of hearing it. If you want to shoot that way then do it, but don't go around putting the people who shoot better than you do, down, just because they have the desire to better their shooting ability. And just for clarification, because this is the internet, the "you" doesn't refer to you specifically.


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

On a serious note ... well done for working out Jim's quote .... the hard work must be paying off .. i did latin at school and remember pretty much nufink !!!


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's DEFINITELY NOT just you. I'm sure many other archers share your style and technique...but you have also had different goals than many archers who primarily want to just bowhunt...AND...I'm sure you're not exactly mentally wired like everyone else or share the exact same natural abilities.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Just what are you inferring? 110-220, ac-dc, dc,12v, what?:wink:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> If you shoot an arrow and it misses, you make a conscious recalibration and shoot the next arrow. This is the way you do it when you are gap shooting, picking a point, or stringwalking.


BUT....that is NOT how True Instinctive archers recalibrate.

There is definitely a difference. For example...when an archer misses that aims Point of Aim they consciously adjust their aiming reference to compensate for how much they missed by.

A True Instinctive archer puts FAITH that their body will respond appropriately, which IS different than an archer purposely and consciously moving the arrow tip up or down, left or right within their sight picture based on the miss.



itbeso said:


> It's not rocket science, but it is a built in excuse for missing. " I shoot instinctive, I don't use those cheating methods of aiming ", personally, I'm tired of hearing it.


I agree. In some cases it is a poor excuse and it can get annoying hearing it...but in some cases I believe it's justified.

The cheating comments HAVE to STOP!



itbeso said:


> If you want to shoot that way then do it, but don't go around putting the people who shoot better than you do, down.


I agree. No one should be put down based on their aiming technique and/or ability.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Just what are you inferring? 110-220, ac-dc, dc,12v, what?:wink:


Well...it has to do with how your brain/personality is wired :wink:

There are 2 primary personality types based on which side of the brain influences an individual more.

Some people are more analytical. Some are more emotional and driven by feelings....and than there are those that are whole brain thinkers which often develop from doing ambidextrous activities as a child.

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Well...it has to do with how your brain/personality is wired :wink:
> 
> There are 2 primary personality types based on which side of the brain influences an individual more.
> 
> ...


And??????? I feel like the next question is " And how does that make you feel? ". LOL. You're not charging me by the post for analysis are You?:lol3:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> And??????? I feel like the next question is " And how does that make you feel? ". LOL. You're not charging me by the post for analysis are You?:lol3:


LOL....naw...no charge...and if I had to guess...your personality type is analytical with nerves of steel :wink: which could help explain why you're such a good tournament archer :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL....naw...no charge...and if I had to guess...your personality type is analytical with nerves of steel :wink: which could help explain why you're such a good tournament archer :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I'm a good hunter too! My buddy, Jesse Morehead says that I am the luckiest hunter he has ever seen. I'm still not sure whether that was a compliment or diss.lol. Envy you guys living in good hunting states.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

On the subject of target panic, I can only go by my own experiences with it. Many years ago, I used to shoot from january to the Nfaa outdoor nationals, at the end of july. I would then lay off, except for any hunting excursion I could go on, until late December. When i resumed practicing, I would usually have a case of target panic until my shooting got back to the point where I was confident in my shot. I have explained how I got rid of my target panic in other posts. To me, target panic is just a fear of missing, which can also be translated into lack of confidence in your ability to hold and aim your arrow and execute a good shot. I feel you can conquer this with good mental training in your garage while practicing certain techniques. I am against blank baling as a cure for target panic. I feel that you need to be always aiming at a dot in your tp practice in able to get past your anxieties. In my opinion, confidence is the major target panic buster out there. For that reason, I feel that instinctive archers are the most suceptible to Target panic among barebow types because that aiming style lets more doubt into your brain about where the arrow will impact. Again, this is just my experience and opinions and I know they vary from some of the notable coaches and archers on AT.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

itbeso you're not from Calhoun are you? I grew up shooting when Jesse was on top of the world.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

With the exception for a few short breaks, I shot all day yesterday from sun up to sun down.

My first few arrows were garbage (not good for a hunter). Then I settled into my routine of stacking a couple and then falling apart for a shot or two. When I say "fall apart" I mean that I could miss by a foot at 20 yards. That's not even a serious effort.

I've been working pretty hard to make sure my form is good and focus on the "shot sequence". I think it's pretty good but my shooting seemed to go backward. Yesterday morning I just decided that I wasn't going anyplace or doing anything else until I got some control over this. I skipped work and kept shooting.

Aside from a real quick check of alignment at full draw, I concentrated on aiming. I got pretty consistent.

My son came over to shoot about mid-morning and we get a little competitive. My consistency held. I took a late lunch break and then shot the last hour or so until it was too dark to shoot.

Here's what I think is the interesting part. What I found was exactly opposite of what I've been doing and even posted about here once or twice. I had been "blank bailing" or shooting in the dark thinking I could better feel what's going on in the shot. I thought that if the shot feels good it should be good.

It wasn't so yesterday. If I concentrated on aiming, I could always feel when I let the shot go early (bailed out of the shot sequence). Those shots weren't as good but they weren't all that bad as long as I was aiming right to the end. Even the times that I "double clutched", I still pulled a reasonable shot out of it. Less than perfect releases still resulted in "reasonable" shots. When I aimed all the way through...like until the arrow was in the target, I flat out impressed myself. I didn't make any mistake that resulted in one of those one foot misses all day.

A few words about the target and what kind of accuracy I'm talking about. My target is a burlap bag full of rags. I stuck a stick in the ground and set a beer can on the stick. The beer can is about 5 inches tall so I considered anything in the can or just to one side as "reasonable" (everything inside 5 inches). Not necessarily good, but reasonable. If I grouped in the bottom half of the can (where I was aiming), I considered that as "good (about a 2 1/2 inch group. I did all the shooting between 10 and 20 yards with most shots taken from 17 yards...just happens to be from the end of my picnic table to the target so it's convenient.

That's not "world champion" accuracy but it puts me back to where I have something to work with. I think one of the problems yesterday was that some of the crazy misses I've had lately caused me to lose some confidence in my aiming point. I do a "split vision" sort of thing. I guess it's kind of like gaping only I don't measure and memorize gaps. I memorize the way it looks and I try to do a lot of shooting where I don't know the exact distance.

Keep in mind that this is for hunting distances and I wouldn't shoot that little 45 pound bow (about 40 pounds at my 27 inches according to my scale) at a deer much beyond 20 yards. I practice out to 30 or so but it's been a very long time since I've done any shooting out past 30 yards.

BTW, I went to a lighter bow so I could do a LOT more shooting and really dial things in without tearing myself up for nothing. Like a lot of people, I went from a compound to heavy recurves and longbows without any guidance and without knowing any better. My most used bow is a 55 pound Martin Hunter (about 50 at my draw length) which I handle pretty well but after shooting the 35 pound bow we just picked up for my wife, I decided that I wanted a lighter bow.

So, if there's anybody who was interested enough to read this long winded post, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Those that don't do it and those that didn't stick with it were the ones that continued to improve their shooting ability. Those that still stick with it are those who are stuck on a plateau they will never get off of.If your goal in life is to just shoot with no improvement, then by all means shoot your bow without thinking. It seems to me that just being able to say "I shoot without consciously aiming" is a badge of honor to some on here. It certainly won't lead to too many trophies (either man made or animal).


How do you back that claim up?? I believe that's a fair question. Is it because you don't shoot that way? Or do you personally know every archer on the planet? Just askn. Speck


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Wow! The thread started as a serious attempt to address a topic that's probably of interest to most of us who are trying to put arrows in the center of the target.

As far as I'm concerned, what backs up ones views on the topic is their ability to hit what they shoot at. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they have to say is the exact thing that's going to help me but it's worth a listen.

My interest in this thread is understanding and improving my shooting. I have to say that by the time a person gets done sifting through all the crap that's posted they might be left to tired to go out and shoot.

Maybe there's one or more of you guys who want to talk about shooting who are interested in taking a discussion about shooting off-line?...PM, email or something?


----------



## foodtraveler (Feb 12, 2011)

Jimmy,
Your part about beginning the draw and getting to anchor with good back tension and then finding yourself in a kind of "no man's land" where you then have to raise or lower the bow to aim--and here I mean aim at the center of the target via string walking--and thus shoot "drive by" I've found to be a frequent outcome and difficult thing to overcome. So far, my best way around that is to start off not exactly aiming but pretty closely estimating where everything will line up once I get all the pre-aiming stuff in order. in other words, I can hold most steadily and shoot best when at the end I have to move my bow arm not at all. Make sense?


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Rick Welch in his own video demonstrated and described what he believed Instinctive Aiming was...and what he described as Instinctive Aiming was NO different than how many Gap Shooters aim.
> 
> Even archers who believe they know what the differences are have shown they really don't completely understand...so there's still controversy and misunderstanding even amoung Instinctive shooters...just as there is some misunderstanding and controversy on what is Snap Shooting.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I was next to RW on a practice line earlier this year, great shot for sure but I swear blind he was aiming at particular spots under the targets, he even asked how far two of them where.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

foodtraveler said:


> Jimmy,
> Your part about beginning the draw and getting to anchor with good back tension and then finding yourself in a kind of "no man's land" where you then have to raise or lower the bow to aim--and here I mean aim at the center of the target via string walking--and thus shoot "drive by" I've found to be a frequent outcome and difficult thing to overcome. So far, my best way around that is to start off not exactly aiming but pretty closely estimating where everything will line up once I get all the pre-aiming stuff in order. in other words, I can hold most steadily and shoot best when at the end I have to move my bow arm not at all. Make sense?


It makes sense to me though, especially in a hunting situation, you can't always do it.

I seem to recall reading that you have more control (less over-shoot) rising to the target than lowering to the target because one is dealing with contracting muscles and the other deals with relaxing muscles.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> It makes sense to me though, especially in a hunting situation, you can't always do it.
> 
> I seem to recall reading that you have more control (less over-shoot) rising to the target than lowering to the target because one is dealing with contracting muscles and the other deals with relaxing muscles.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Those that don't do it and those that didn't stick with it were the ones that continued to improve their shooting ability. Those that still stick with it are those who are stuck on a plateau they will never get off of.If your goal in life is to just shoot with no improvement, then by all means shoot your bow without thinking. It seems to me that just being able to say "I shoot without consciously aiming" is a badge of honor to some on here. It certainly won't lead to too many trophies (either man made or animal).


I think this may be the key to why some of these guys are so fanatically against instinctive aiming - they think that instinctive shooters wear it as a badge. I would like to know who on this forum does that. I know that neither Speck nor myself have ever done that.

I don't care how you aim - I don't care what you shoot - I don't care how you hunt, etc... 

All I have ever seen in this forum is a constant bash of instinctive shooting - from guys claiming that nobody does it - to guys saying if you don't look a certain way, stand a certain way, grab the string a certain way or shoot fast enough you are not "truly" or a "pure" instinctive shootoer, to guys claiming that instinctive shootes are ignorant, satisified with "good enough" - and now not able to get many trophies either man made or animal. Constant bashes and digs against this style of shooting.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

All I care about is whether or not the arrow goes where I intend it to go.

With that, I'm done with my coffee and I think my time will be better spent outside shooting so that's where I'm headed.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

not much outdoor target shooting up here by me this time of year - the other day when I was bowhunting it was 13 degrees! the hardest thing about bowhunting in that weather is getting the draw - everything makes noise when it is cold - from the bow to the string, from my clothes to my bones.


----------



## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Please stay on the OP's topic. I've read this entire thread and I don't see why anybody should be taking any of this as a personal attack. I will lock people out of the Traditional forum if they continue to derail the thread by going off topic. You will NOT get any warning when you get locked out.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> not much outdoor target shooting up here by me this time of year - the other day when I was bowhunting it was 13 degrees! the hardest thing about bowhunting in that weather is getting the draw - everything makes noise when it is cold - from the bow to the string, from my clothes to my bones.


I think it was in the 20's yesterday morning when I went out and it was 32 this morning. I shoot outside because there's no other place to shoot. It's not much easier when it's 90+ and humid in the summer.

First arrows of the day were all in there pretty good (for me). The first was about 1 1/2 inch right of center and the last was center...17 yards. That's a dead deer and maybe even a dead squirrel. It's been a while since I felt good about my first shot...not that 1 1/2 out is that good but it's a big improvement over what I've been doing lately.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> So, if there's anybody who was interested enough to read this long winded post, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.


I know I must sound like a broken record...but...there's a reason why some people shoot better when they focus on a shot sequence or part of it rather than aiming and vice versa.

Again...it has to do with how an archer is mentally wired...and the key is to find out what works best for you as an individual archer.

I think it's GREAT that you're trying different things and experimenting. Eventually you will find what works best for you...especially since you're keeping an open mind :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> not much outdoor target shooting up here by me this time of year - the other day when I was bowhunting it was 13 degrees! the hardest thing about bowhunting in that weather is getting the draw - everything makes noise when it is cold - from the bow to the string, from my clothes to my bones.


Sharp - coldest I ever killed a deer was -18 steam blew out both sides when the arrow went though and on every bound he made more steam blew out - pretty cool to see.

Matt


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I know I must sound like a broken record...but...there's a reason why some people shoot better when they focus on a shot sequence or part of it rather than aiming and vice versa.
> 
> Again...it has to do with how an archer is mentally wired...and the key is to find out what works best for you as an individual archer.
> 
> ...


I think it also depsnds on where you're at skill-wise and what you need to be focusing on. When I first started trying to pay more attention to the "sequence" there seemed to be an improvement. Maybe my form was the limiting factor. I think I took it a bit too far and stopped aiming expecting good form and a smooth release to magically send the arrow to the target. I think you have to aim and have good form for the best results. The question becomes "why did you miss?" and "how do you fix it?" The generic answer is "It depends".

I agree that it has to do with how you're wired...the whole left/right brain thing and psycing yourself in or out. It's part physical and part head game.

But how I would like to help the whole process out by finding out how the guys who can really shoot do it...or have them tell me why they think I don't do it as well. I can't be the oly one but my archery life has been pretty sheltered...just not many of us around. I don't know who's who in competative archery but this Blackmon guy (for one) can shoot, huh?


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

foodtravler - I do the same thing. I am doing very good with this right now but I usually see it manifested during the middle of the indoor season. I will end up hitting anchor and my point will be somewhere around the 2 ring at the 6 o'clock position. I struggle to get it up and once I get it going there I let it rip right as it gets to the X. I don't have problems adjusting my gaps when shooting 3D. I never have this problem then. I think it's the precise aiming, (point on), which I have agreed all along that aimers tend to suffer more from TP than gappers or instinctive shooters. That is why it seems to manifest itself differently for them ie. inability to hold at anchor. When I suffer from the drive by I try and line it up as you mention. This year I am not going to focus on indoor for 3 months like I usually do. I am going to keep shooting 3D and then about mid-Feb focus on indoor for mid-March nationals. I don't intend to shoot much other than NFAA nationals.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> But how I would like to help the whole process out by finding out how the guys who can really shoot do it...or have them tell me why they think I don't do it as well. I can't be the oly one but my archery life has been pretty sheltered...just not many of us around. I don't know who's who in competative archery but this Blackmon guy (for one) can shoot, huh?


The problem with aiming is that one can start the process too early, setting up the tension to execute and perform before the form is even fully set up to make a correct shot. That's why from beginner to the elite we train to make "aiming" in the final step, after the anchor and holding phase is complete, or in practice, about 5% of the total concentration on the shot. Now, just because it's taught that way doesn't make it cut in stone, but the practice has worked up to the most elite sighted shooters, shooters who really have less aim worries than non-sighted shooters. 

For me, I'm on target as close as can be while executing my draw and set, but my actual "aim" is in the final step of things, during expansion and release, with aim being a focus on target x and not so much on an arrow. Without such a sequence, it would be too much change of concentration to go from aim-to-form-to-aim-to-form-to-aim-to release.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> itbeso you're not from Calhoun are you? I grew up shooting when Jesse was on top of the world.


Jimmy, I'm was born in Arkansas but have lived in California since 1957. Jesse and I met at the Nfaa nationals in 1978, formed an instant bond, and have been best friends ever since. Jesse is now in Indiana and close enough to Cloverdale that I will be staying with him at next years Trad Worlds. He is still on top of the world( but only because he is married to Ginger).:teeth:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> The problem with aiming is that one can start the process too early, setting up the tension to execute and perform before the form is even fully set up to make a correct shot. That's why from beginner to the elite we train to make "aiming" in the final step, after the anchor and holding phase is complete, or in practice, about 5% of the total concentration on the shot. Now, just because it's taught that way doesn't make it cut in stone, but the practice has worked up to the most elite sighted shooters, shooters who really have less aim worries than non-sighted shooters.
> 
> For me, I'm on target as close as can be while executing my draw and set, but my actual "aim" is in the final step of things, during expansion and release, with aim being a focus on target x and not so much on an arrow. Without such a sequence, it would be too much change of concentration to go from aim-to-form-to-aim-to-form-to-aim-to release.


I think I agree but I'm not in a position to argue anyway.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> The problem with aiming is that one can start the process too early, setting up the tension to execute and perform before the form is even fully set up to make a correct shot. That's why from beginner to the elite we train to make "aiming" in the final step, after the anchor and holding phase is complete, or in practice, about 5% of the total concentration on the shot. Now, just because it's taught that way doesn't make it cut in stone, but the practice has worked up to the most elite sighted shooters, shooters who really have less aim worries than non-sighted shooters.
> 
> For me, I'm on target as close as can be while executing my draw and set, but my actual "aim" is in the final step of things, during expansion and release, with aim being a focus on target x and not so much on an arrow. Without such a sequence, it would be too much change of concentration to go from aim-to-form-to-aim-to-form-to-aim-to release.


:thumbs_up

I'll also add there's another reason why some archers can focus entirely on aiming while others can not or should not.

It has to do with the speed of execution.

A True Instinctive shooter or anyone who shoots reasonably fast...can focus completely on aiming.

An average person's mind can only focus on one thing for a short period of time before it is distracted by another thought.

Shooting fast can have it's advantages under those circumstances...but there are also some disadvantages...depending on the archer and the specific circumstances.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I think it also depsnds on where you're at skill-wise and what you need to be focusing on.


ABSOLUTELY! :thumbs_up which is also why you'll often see me make suggestions to people based on their goals, personality and ABILITIES.

Those all should factor in to help guide an archer on the path they should follow.

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> How do you back that claim up?? I believe that's a fair question. Is it because you don't shoot that way? Or do you personally know every archer on the planet? Just askn. Speck


Speck, the statement is based purely on my experiences in competitive archery over the last 43 years. In 43 years, I have never been around a tournament archer who has won a major national tournament shooting instinctively.I'm not saying that you can't hit a target shooting instinctively, I'm saying that that style of shooting will only take an archer so far with accuracy, then you either stay at the same level or develop an aiming system that will take you to the next level. To answer your question about whether I have shot that way, the answer is yes. I have personally shot the highest field or hunter round ever by a nonsight shooter at the Nfaa outdoor nationals, a 526 hunter round. This was done in the bowhunter division with compound using a gap system, except on targets from 20 yards and in. There I would shoot instinctively, or arm aim as I called it. Inevitably, the shorter targets would be my weakpoint as My friend and former multiple National champion, Jim Brown would usally kick my behind on the short targets with his pick-a-point system. I feel that I can shoot instinctively as well as anyone in the world, but, saying that, I don't think it is as accurate as other aiming systems available to us.


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Itbeso, that is some great shooting and a good answer to my question. My accuracy, starts to go away at 40yds. I still hit the target, just don't score very well. I have tried some different things, but have sucked at them so far. I am open minded, even though for now I shoot Instinctive. Speck


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Speck - it is unlikey that shooting instinctive you will get very good at distances past 40 or 50 yards. Instinctive aiming is similar to throwing a ball and our brain is hardwired to suboconsciously judge distances based on these close range distances - also the ability to concentrate on a small spot at distances past 40 or 50 yards is greatly diminished - and one other thing - if you shoot 3 under and anchor on near your mouth or ear - there comes a point where the bow actually blocks the target at these greater distances. If you want to shoot further than 40 or 50 yards instinctive is not a good aiming method. 

Every aiming method has limitations and positives and negatives and the idea of "taking it to the next level" is about what you want out of archery - if you want long range shooting (I have never shot a deer with my rifle past 50 yards) then you can try different conscious aiming methods - or if you really want to "take it to the next level" you can put sights on your bow and shoot like an Olympian or even go further and buy a Compound - it is all about what you want out of archery. But since this has little to do with TP I will not post about it anymore than this if you want to discuss it more - shoot me a pm.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I have personally shot the highest field or hunter round ever by a nonsight shooter at the Nfaa outdoor nationals, a 526 hunter round. This was done in the bowhunter division with compound using a gap system, except on targets from 20 yards and in.


Itbeso did you ever shoot with Brad Marshall, when he lived in UK he shot 520s (still owns those UK records from the mid 90s), I dont know if he ever shot higher scores when he went back to the USA. great scores on your part.

I think its hard (even unfair) to compare Instinctive shooters on marked Field as Gap will always shine in that particular arena, even unmarked IFAA 3D out to 60y Gap I feel still has the edge over instinct, its only with short range WA3D/IBO does Instinct become seriously competitive against Gap aiming, in Europe I have met and shot with some good Instinctive 3D shots but they seem a rare talent in the sea of gappers.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

itbeso - yes, he always has a smile on and marrying Ginger made him smile bigger. I remember going to shoots when he was selling his sight. He had just developed it and he amazed everyone who saw him with it. I'm from Calhoun but haven't lived there in over 20 years since joining the Army. I keep up with Jesse and Ginger on Facebook but haven't spoken to him in years. Tell him I said hello.

By the way, you are keeping some pretty good company there with Jim Brown. What an accomplished archer!


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Speck - it is unlikey that shooting instinctive you will get very good at distances past 40 or 50 yards. Instinctive aiming is similar to throwing a ball and our brain is hardwired to suboconsciously judge distances based on these close range distances - also the ability to concentrate on a small spot at distances past 40 or 50 yards is greatly diminished - and one other thing - if you shoot 3 under and anchor on near your mouth or ear - there comes a point where the bow actually blocks the target at these greater distances. If you want to shoot further than 40 or 50 yards instinctive is not a good aiming method.
> 
> Every aiming method has limitations and positives and negatives and the idea of "taking it to the next level" is about what you want out of archery - if you want long range shooting (I have never shot a deer with my rifle past 50 yards) then you can try different conscious aiming methods - or if you really want to "take it to the next level" you can put sights on your bow and shoot like an Olympian or even go further and buy a Compound - it is all about what you want out of archery. But since this has little to do with TP I will not post about it anymore than this if you want to discuss it more - shoot me a pm.


Sharp, I feel that to a degree all this does have to do with target panic. As I have stated before, It is my opinion that confidence in your shooting ability is the key to beating target panic. The more confidence you have in your form and in your ability to hit what you are aiming at, the easier it will be to eliminate target panic.Your solution for taking it to the next level by putting sights on the bow isn't what we are talking about here. This is a barebow forum but too many people want to limit how good they can shoot by using no sights as an excuse for missing. There is an unbelievably amount of accuracy that can be achieved in our style of shooting if we eliminate psychological barriers and don't set ceilings.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Speck, the statement is based purely on my experiences in competitive archery over the last 43 years. In 43 years, I have never been around a tournament archer who has won a major national tournament shooting instinctively.I'm not saying that you can't hit a target shooting instinctively, I'm saying that that style of shooting will only take an archer so far with accuracy, then you either stay at the same level or develop an aiming system that will take you to the next level. To answer your question about whether I have shot that way, the answer is yes. I have personally shot the highest field or hunter round ever by a nonsight shooter at the Nfaa outdoor nationals, a 526 hunter round. This was done in the bowhunter division with compound using a gap system, except on targets from 20 yards and in. There I would shoot instinctively, or arm aim as I called it. Inevitably, the shorter targets would be my weakpoint as My friend and former multiple National champion, Jim Brown would usally kick my behind on the short targets with his pick-a-point system. I feel that I can shoot instinctively as well as anyone in the world, but, saying that, I don't think it is as accurate as other aiming systems available to us.


You describe where I was very well. I learned to shoot beginning at age 3-4. My father shot archery, NFAA, he loved the American rounds, and taught me to shoot. I shot instinctively from then 1973ish foward instinctively. When I decided to start shooting tournaments again I practiced and practiced. I got pretty good. I placed top 3 in most everything I shot and I killed a boatload of deer, but I felt like I peaked or plateaued. I was never completely satisfied with my results. I knew I could shoot higher scores so I began experimenting with systems. I tried everything I could find about archery. I found it frustrating in that a lot of people were reluctant to share their aiming styles. I found it very odd. They seemed ashamed that they aimed. Well, once I started openly talking about what I was trying I found out why. My instinctive buddies acted like I was Judas. I was an "aimer." That did not deter me and in fact it is why I share everything I try on the internet and in videos. I want people to have information and to try various methods. I don't want them to go through what I went through. 

My scores certainly went up and I went to the next level by using an aiming system. Like itbeso states, I've never known anyone to win a big tournament other than Rick Welch by shooting instinctively. But, if you watch Rick shoot you will see that the arrow is right under his eye. He actually adjusts his head every shot to get his eye right over the arrow so out to 3D ranges his is almost gun barreling without having to even see the arrow. It's lined up with his eye. But, the sport is changing. We have many more shooters competing today at the top level. Scores are tight and all the top shooters are using some system of aiming. Just my insights from devoting a lot of time to indoor, 3D and field archery.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Itbeso did you ever shoot with Brad Marshall, when he lived in UK he shot 520s (still owns those UK records from the mid 90s), I dont know if he ever shot higher scores when he went back to the USA. great scores on your part.
> 
> I think its hard (even unfair) to compare Instinctive shooters on marked Field as Gap will always shine in that particular arena, even unmarked IFAA 3D out to 60y Gap I feel still has the edge over instinct, its only with short range WA3D/IBO does Instinct become seriously competitive against Gap aiming, in Europe I have met and shot with some good Instinctive 3D shots but they seem a rare talent in the sea of gappers.


Steve, I never shot nonsight in the years that Brad Marshall Competed here in the states. From 1988 until 1998 I quit practicing for all intents and purposes but still competed in other styles of shooting just for the love of competition. Brad set the all time aggregate for a nonsight class in the mid nineties, scoring 2629 in the barebow division ( stringwalking and compound).


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> itbeso - yes, he always has a smile on and marrying Ginger made him smile bigger. I remember going to shoots when he was selling his sight. He had just developed it and he amazed everyone who saw him with it. I'm from Calhoun but haven't lived there in over 20 years since joining the Army. I keep up with Jesse and Ginger on Facebook but haven't spoken to him in years. Tell him I said hello.
> 
> By the way, you are keeping some pretty good company there with Jim Brown. What an accomplished archer!


Jim was not only an accomplished archer but one of the true gentlemen and great ambassadors of our sport. He is still doing good things for archery down in Florida where he retired a few years ago.


----------



## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

Dear Ranger B:

I have plenty of respect for you. And, you have been most helpful with my shooting. But, this whole thread is way too verbose..... 

You can become as good an archer as you choose, but you need to train yourself to be relaxed in high pressure situations. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of archery, of which you are pretty good, I'm sure. 

Training oneself to relax in pressure situations goes beyond archery - to all endeavors of life. .... At least, that seems to be what I've seen.

Best of luck with 285 + scores.

Bob


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boberau said:


> Dear Ranger B:
> 
> I have plenty of respect for you. And, you have been most helpful with my shooting. But, this whole thread is way too verbose.....
> 
> ...


Bob, I respectfully disagree with your statement. For me, the one thing that gets me through pressure situations is relying on the mechanics that I have learned. When it comes to crunch time, focusing on the things that got you there and not the score, are the things that help you to relax during those crucial moments.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Bob, 
Thank you for the kind words, but honestly if it were as easy as just relax then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I've only had mild issues with TP and the one big let down at nationals last year, but many people quit shooting due to TP. I do not include you in this because I don't know if you've every struggled with it, but it's easy for those who have never encountered TP to give advise. They truly don't understand how difficult this affliction can be. People spend thousands of dollars, countless hours and many ultimately stop shooting because of this. I wish it upon no one. The intent of the thread was to openly discuss the subtleties of TP ie. those who can't hold at anchor, drive by shooters, and flinchers so that it might help someone. Someone may be having this problem but due to the lack of other shooters in their area they have not mentioned. This opens the topic and hopefully they get some ideas. I concur with you that it is about relaxing, but we are all made up differently and have different personalities. We can't do a lot about our personality so we have to find ways to deal with or work around it. For some they get nervous just shooting on the warm up bags. I've seen them do it. Others are calm and cool no matter the situation - B personalities. Anyway, sorry I've been too verbose. Hopefully, some have benefited.

"Bob, I respectfully disagree with your statement. For me, the one thing that gets me through pressure situations is relying on the mechanics that I have learned. When it comes to crunch time, focusing on the things that got you there and not the score, are the things that help you to relax during those crucial moments."
This is why Rod Jenkins urges archers to build a solid shot sequence and then control what you can control. We all feel pressure to some degree so if you have a sequence you can walk yourself through it to keep from focusing on the wrong thing. You can ensure that your feet are right each time. You can control the bow hand/arm. You can control the draw, the breathing and the release. If you focus on what you can control and then can accept the result then you have done the best you can do. This mentality, I believe, is the key to everything else (scores) falling in place.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Bob, I respectfully disagree with your statement. For me, the one thing that gets me through pressure situations is relying on the mechanics that I have learned. When it comes to crunch time, focusing on the things that got you there and not the score, are the things that help you to relax during those crucial moments.



Same for me, the only time I run into problems is when I havent done enough hours behind the bow to groove my shot resulting in a lack of faith in some aspect of Aim, Form or tune, it will likely distract me from the mechanics of the shot sequence and I know in my own mind that if I can run the shot sequence without distraction (Internal and External) I can shoot relaxed, with good form under the hardest of tourney conditions


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Sharp, I feel that to a degree all this does have to do with target panic. As I have stated before, It is my opinion that confidence in your shooting ability is the key to beating target panic. The more confidence you have in your form and in your ability to hit what you are aiming at, the easier it will be to eliminate target panic.Your solution for taking it to the next level by putting sights on the bow isn't what we are talking about here. This is a barebow forum but too many people want to limit how good they can shoot by using no sights as an excuse for missing. There is an unbelievably amount of accuracy that can be achieved in our style of shooting if we eliminate psychological barriers and don't set ceilings.


This thread has taken a great turn for the better - Superb post Ben

No disrespect to Sharp meant - good post no matter who he was talking to.

Matt


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Boberau said:


> It has nothing to do with the mechanics of archery, of which you are pretty good, I'm sure.


For some archers...it has alot to do with the mechanics....which is why most coaches can't seem to stress enough about the importance of form to their students...BUT...keep in mind...an archer does NOT have to look a certain way to be consistent. 

Generally speaking...there are certain biomechanical positions that can make it easier for an archer to attain and maintain consistentcy which is another reason why some coaches want you to look a certain way.

Keep in mind...as I've been saying...not everyone shares exactly the same goals, abilities and/or personality...so there WILL be different techniques to help each archer overcome their issues and/or help them become the best archers they can be....based on those goals, abilities and personality.

Ray :shade:


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

This has really become a great thread!!!

Dewayne


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I think TP lives in all of us I deal with it and most of the guys that I have talked to, that have been shooting for a while, deal with it as well. 

The most effective way for me to deal with it is total confidence in my tune, equipment, aiming system (what ever it may be) and form. This needs to be coupled with a separation in my shot sequence. I need to bring myself to anchor with back tension and then start aiming and once I find my spot - consciously increase back tension bringing the shot to conclusion. Aiming isn't any part of the equation until I am at anchor and stable - finding the spot can't trigger the release it has to be triggered by a conscious increase of back tension.

I've been shooting a bunch of spots lately and every 5 shots or so I'll bring myself to anchor, aim and hold the spot but, never fire the back to bring shot to conclusion. I'll hold it for 5-10 seconds and then let down. I've never felt more control than I am right now - that's not to say I won't blow up in Vegas LOL

Matt


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> I think TP lives in all of us I deal with it and most of the guys that I have talked to, that have been shooting for a while, deal with it as well.
> 
> The most effective way for me to deal with it is total confidence in my tune, equipment, aiming system (what ever it may be) and form. This needs to be coupled with a separation in my shot sequence. I need to bring myself to anchor with back tension and then start aiming and once I find my spot - consciously increase back tension bringing the shot to conclusion. Aiming isn't any part of the equation until I am at anchor and stable - finding the spot can't trigger the release it has to be triggered by a conscious increase of back tension.
> 
> ...


Matt, I've been fortunate to win at Vegas but there were other times where I would like to have crawled under a rock! One year I went there with about 2 weeks practice under my belt so I knew it wasn't going to be pretty, and boy was I right. This was back in the early eighties and we shot a 450 round the first 2 days. There was a team event for the barebower's back then and I was teamed up with a friend from Kentucky, Roy Mcfarland. The first two practice ends I was all over the target. The first end for score, I shot a 30 and Roy was all over me about shooting so bad on the practice ends and psyching him out. I tried to tell him that the 30 was total luck but he was convinced I was playing games with his mind. 15 ends later, he knew I was telling the truth. I hit the curtain behind the targets 5 times that round. I had such a case of the yips it became hilarious. Those times are good for keeping us humble and also teaching us that there is nothing like good preparation. I think all finger shooters go through varying degrees of target panic from time to time. I have a routine that gets rid of it for me, but as Ray says ,we are all wired differently and have to find that key that unlocks our "good" inner self


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> *I've been shooting a bunch of spots lately and every 5 shots or so I'll bring myself to anchor, aim and hold the spot but, never fire the back to bring shot to conclusion. I'll hold it for 5-10 seconds and then let down. I've never felt more control than I am right now - that's not to say I won't blow up in Vegas LOL*
> Matt


Mate , that is just awesome and I am uber jealous eh !!! After a few decent shots at a spot ... getting back and expanding without concluding in a controlled calm manner ? Man that great stuff .... I look forward to hearing of your success in Vegas !


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm working through TP at the moment. I stringwalk and for me it was an inability to hold on the yellow without releasing; difficulty moving to the yellow, arm wouldn't respond; moving to yellow followed by releasing without stopping.

During my tackling of this my form has improved and settled down a lot. I've changed my hook and my grip and built up strength- all of these I felt were contributing factors.

I had never really tackled the aiming/mental side of the shot. TP forces you to do so. 

*You will be better for having done so.*

So there is a benefit to TP if you can work your way through it. It is an opportunity to improve yourself. Hard, virtually impossible, to see initially but definitely there.

It brings a confidence with it that you understand your shot completely, physically and mentally.

In future if I hit a bad run I should be able to completely run through my shot to find the problem because a shot is both physical and mental.


I don't ever expect to be 100% cured, I expect to have to continually do drills to control it.

This is not a bad thing because you must be in control of your shot. The accuracy that is possible is hard for the brain to accept initially but it is there once you can control your shot.

*So, Target Panic can have an upside if you can deal with it.*

You must first acknowledge you have it, once you do you can receive help as many have come through it and are happy to try to spare another the problems they had.

This thread is an example of the help and support that is available. 

When you have top archers coming clean and admitting they've struggled and won then why would you not feel you can't admit yourself?


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I think you're onto something. I think I learned and improved a few things trying to climb out of my recent slump. Hopefully it'll make me a stronger shooter in the long run. 

Today I just thoroughly enjoyed shooting. It started good and ended good. There were, of course, some shots that weren't as good as I would have liked but nothing that I didn't understand or couldn't manage.


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MGF said:


> I think you're onto something. I think I learned and improved a few things trying to climb out of my recent slump. Hopefully it'll make me a stronger shooter in the long run.
> 
> Today I just thoroughly enjoyed shooting. It started good and ended good. There were, of course, some shots that weren't as good as I would have liked but nothing that I didn't understand or couldn't manage.[/QUOTe
> Outstanding and congratulations.:smile:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

benofthehood said:


> Mate , that is just awesome and I am uber jealous eh !!! After a few decent shots at a spot ... getting back and expanding without concluding in a controlled calm manner ? Man that great stuff .... I look forward to hearing of your success in Vegas !


Ben 

I can hold at anchor and aim and then let down but once I am happy with the aiming solution and start expansion it would take an act of congress to stop me - maybe at some point I will be able to but right now once I start expansion that arrow is going. 

Matt


----------



## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Matt, I've been fortunate to win at Vegas but there were other times where I would like to have crawled under a rock! One year I went there with about 2 weeks practice under my belt so I knew it wasn't going to be pretty, and boy was I right. This was back in the early eighties and we shot a 450 round the first 2 days. There was a team event for the barebower's back then and I was teamed up with a friend from Kentucky, Roy Mcfarland. The first two practice ends I was all over the target. The first end for score, I shot a 30 and Roy was all over me about shooting so bad on the practice ends and psyching him out. I tried to tell him that the 30 was total luck but he was convinced I was playing games with his mind. 15 ends later, he knew I was telling the truth. I hit the curtain behind the targets 5 times that round. I had such a case of the yips it became hilarious. Those times are good for keeping us humble and also teaching us that there is nothing like good preparation. I think all finger shooters go through varying degrees of target panic from time to time. I have a routine that gets rid of it for me, but as Ray says ,we are all wired differently and have to find that key that unlocks our "good" inner self



itbeso


Back in my barebow days I had the privledge to travel and shoot with Roy many times. I was on the high country team with Tim Ison, joe fleanor and doug swartz. If i remember correctly roys bear teammates were Tommy doerr, andy spear and jim brown


----------



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

barebow52 said:


> itbeso
> 
> 
> Back in my barebow days I had the privledge to travel and shoot with Roy many times. I was on the high country team with Tim Ison, joe fleanor and doug swartz. If i remember correctly roys bear teammates were Tommy doerr, andy spear and jim brown


Barebow, I knew Tim but not well. Tommy, Andy,Jim, and Roy were all good guys who I had the Pleasure of shooting with in Nfaa events. Later, after I had quit shooting without sights, Those guys got into the unmarked arena. I regret that it wasn't around back in the day. A lot of history and fun with that group. Andy spear was a major crack-up.


----------

