# Prejudice Against Kids & Geezers



## Mike Reynolds (Sep 29, 2005)

Why are we missing the Bowhunter classes for Master Seniors and the kids? Don't give me the old saw about "We already have too many classes" because around here, we have more youngsters and senior citizens shooting that we have adults. I think we're hurting ourselves by not offering those groups an opportunity to shoot BHFS with their peers.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

They are missing because at the bigger shoots those guys don't show up.....

The vast majority of older guys shooting National shoots or State and Regional shoots are old FS/Open shooters. Around here I think I can count on one hand the # of Senior or Master Senior guys I have seen shooting pins in the past 8 years.

You have to have at least DECENT eyes to shoot pins and most seniors don't :wink:

If you want to shoot pins shoot em.......


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> They are missing because at the bigger shoots those guys don't show up.....
> 
> The vast majority of older guys shooting National shoots or State and Regional shoots are old FS/Open shooters. Around here I think I can count on one hand the # of Senior or Master Senior guys I have seen shooting pins in the past 8 years.
> 
> ...


*Now you gone and done it! 

I'm gonna go look for my teeth and come down there and bite you on the leg, Whipper Snapper!!*


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Mike Reynolds said:


> Why are we missing the Bowhunter classes for Master Seniors and the kids? Don't give me the old saw about "We already have too many classes" because around here, we have more youngsters and senior citizens shooting that we have adults. I think we're hurting ourselves by not offering those groups an opportunity to shoot BHFS with their peers.


That is exactly the reason used at the meetings. When I started shooting,you shot BB or Fs, that was it . Now it has evolved to almost 80 styles. 
How do you determine who is the national champion. It does cost money. Just think of a state championship that lately draws from 30 to maybe 120. It is possible to have given out every award there is.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

One of these days Mike people will realize this is TARGET archery not hunting practice :wink:

You may use it for practice....but they are two different things. :wink:


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Yeah State Championships are typically a losing endeavor due to the number of recognized styles. This year, we named 23 "state Champions" from 79 shooters and gave out a total of something like 36 awards...12 of the "State Champions" had to beat no one...

Sorry, but what the NFAA needs is less classes, not more...


----------



## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

psargeant said:


> 12 of the "State Champions" had to beat no one..


Are there still guys around that "class shop" for a win, or is this more a product of lower attendance spread into too many classes? Half of the shooters going home with an award can't be good.


----------



## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Just a sign of our politically correct times and I doubt that it's ever going to change. Every kid has to get a trophy now and each has to have the exact same playing time in virtually all sports. Sad really, but us as a nation have lost the stomach to do anything but conform.


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

TNMAN said:


> Are there still guys around that "class shop" for a win, or is this more a product of lower attendance spread into too many classes? Half of the shooters going home with an award can't be good.


Most of it was due to low (although good for us in NC) attendance combined with too many classes. Many of the 1 shooter awards went to R/L, Trad, cub and Women's classes...

That said, there were *19* classes that had only 1 or 2 shooters at the Outdoor *Nationals*


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

psargeant said:


> Yeah State Championships are typically a losing endeavor due to the number of recognized styles. This year, we named 23 "state Champions" from 79 shooters and gave out a total of something like 36 awards...12 of the "State Champions" had to beat no one...
> 
> Sorry, but what the NFAA needs is less classes, not more...


Our Southern Councilman for the NFAA (Lee Gregory) brought this issue up at the last NFAA meeting. He was shot down. It seems that the NFAA does not care to address the issue.

This is a partial quote straight from the NFAA website.
Agenda item #17
Texas 2009 Indoor Championship had 192 shooters. 17 divisions with one competitor, 12 divisions with only 2 competitors. That means that 29 belt buckles or first place awards were given out for 51 competitors.

Happy Trails
Keith


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

psargeant said:


> That said, there were *19* classes that had only 1 or 2 shooters at the Outdoor *Nationals*


They need to put a rule in place that says at state/regional shoots you need at least 5 people in your class to receive an award. Nationals...should be 10 people. 

I know there is a certain person that has been at this a long time that has lord knows how many bowls....I have yet to see more then a handful of people in that class ever at a National event....I think this year it was another of those one or two shooter classes....

seriously if your the only person in the entire US coming to shoot that class....your not competing really. 

I came up with a new class the other day....FS stab setup, release and no sight....but you can use a peep. Who is down to give it a whirl with me? 

If my class won't be approved then we need to look at participation #s per class and DUMP the ones that have no people or very few....

FS release and fingers....and BHFS and fingers....and barebow compound and recurve/longbow. Yeah yeah I know different skills to shoot both...your still using a stick and string and fingers....you decide which you shoot better and come shoot it...


----------



## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

*state champ*



psargeant said:


> Yeah State Championships are typically a losing endeavor due to the number of recognized styles. This year, we named 23 "state Champions" from 79 shooters and gave out a total of something like 36 awards...12 of the "State Champions" had to beat no one...
> 
> Sorry, but what the NFAA needs is less classes, not more...


should be only one. the person shooting the highest score for that weekend, reguardless of chosen equipment.


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

If we killed or left out any classes, several people would get angry. That’s what started this thread. And I’ll bet that attendance would drop. But it seems that something needs to be done. 

Personally I would like to see a handy cap system put into place. Say that we took all last years scores from each class and averaged them. We could use these numbers to determine a handy cap for each style of shooting. Then combine any classes with less than x number of participants, using the handy cap numbers to determine the winners. We could group all the youth classes together, all the women classes together, and all the senior classes together, etc, if needed. We would be handy capping the equipment not each individual shooter. This handy cap would only be used in a class with low attendance. It could also be used to determine a true champion for each tournament. 


Happy Trails
Keith


----------



## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

frank_jones said:


> should be only one. the person shooting the highest score for that weekend, reguardless of chosen equipment.




Wow Frank that sound disheartening, especially from an AMFLR/L shooter that is transitioning to FSL.:wink: I do agree though that the classes for most of the shooting organizations need to be consolidated into two or three divisions. I believe the recurve class came about after the NFAA came to an agreement with the NAA in regards to which organization a shooter has to belong to when it came to trying out for international teams. At the time the NAA had very little compound archers that were members. 

If I’m wrong then I’m sure it will be brought to my attention in short order.


----------



## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Isn't it "nap time" yet?:shhh:


----------



## BigBucks125 (Jun 22, 2006)

KStover said:


> If we killed or left out any classes, several people would get angry. That’s what started this thread. And I’ll bet that attendance would drop. But it seems that something needs to be done.
> 
> Personally I would like to see a handy cap system put into place. Say that we took all last years scores from each class and averaged them. We could use these numbers to determine a handy cap for each style of shooting. Then combine any classes with less than x number of participants, using the handy cap numbers to determine the winners. We could group all the youth classes together, all the women classes together, and all the senior classes together, etc, if needed. We would be handy capping the equipment not each individual shooter. This handy cap would only be used in a class with low attendance. It could also be used to determine a true champion for each tournament.
> 
> ...


Yes people would get mad and quit...for the time being. Yet over the next few years they would quit whining and come back and shoot something else. Attendence may drop for the time being, but in the long run it will be better. 

As for handicaps...they are garbage. The last thing at a state or national shoot is a handicap scoring system....put the pin in the middle, shoot it, and score it...that simple. We don't need to be giving people "extra credit" for shooting 7s and 8s on a vegas target all day. If they want to win, practice more, just like everyone at the TOP is doing!:wink:


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

KStover said:


> If we killed or left out any classes, several people would get angry. That’s what started this thread. And I’ll bet that attendance would drop. But it seems that something needs to be done.
> 
> Personally I would like to see a handy cap system put into place. Say that we took all last years scores from each class and averaged them. We could use these numbers to determine a handy cap for each style of shooting. Then combine any classes with less than x number of participants, using the handy cap numbers to determine the winners. We could group all the youth classes together, all the women classes together, and all the senior classes together, etc, if needed. We would be handy capping the equipment not each individual shooter. This handy cap would only be used in a class with low attendance. It could also be used to determine a true champion for each tournament.
> 
> ...


GNAS in the UK has developed a handicap system that allows me to compare my barebow scores with Olympic recurve and compound scores -- traditional long bow as well if I recall. I get 321 points for a full outdoor FITA against an Olympic recurve shooter.


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

BigBucks125 said:


> Yes people would get mad and quit...for the time being. Yet over the next few years they would quit whining and come back and shoot something else. Attendence may drop for the time being, but in the long run it will be better.
> 
> As for handicaps...they are garbage. The last thing at a state or national shoot is a handicap scoring system....put the pin in the middle, shoot it, and score it...that simple. We don't need to be giving people "extra credit" for shooting 7s and 8s on a vegas target all day. If they want to win, practice more, just like everyone at the TOP is doing!:wink:


If you think that a senior bare bow shooter would quit and then come back and shoot against sighted younger classes, your smokin dope. I only suggested to use the handycap for the classes that have poor attendance. It's sure beats running them off. Why not give a BB shooter a few points extra to compete with the FSL shooters? I shoot FSL and would not mind it at all. 

Keith


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I've often thought that the AGES should be divided better...such as the SENIORS starting at age 50 to go with the rest of the archery world, and then Master Senior starting at age 60.

However....I have also long thought that doing away with DIVISIONS and simply going with Male and Female, then CUB, Youth, ADULT....without regard to "style" and go by SCORE alone.

A 300 with 55X is a 300 with 55X regardless of the "equipment" used to shoot it. Shoot with those of like SCORE and age and be done with it, and do away with the gazillion "styles" of shooting all together.

Shoot whatcha brung and if you don't muster the "score" tough peanuts.

Of course, you do need the PRO Division for the MONEY shooters...but there, you just have Male, Female....ADULT, Senior, and MASTER Senior...no "STYLES"....shoot whatcha brung.

BHFS is nothing more than Freestyle what with the "softening up" of the rules for that style over the past few years. It is a large division....but IMHO, score is score...and many of the BHFS shooters of late are shooting as good or better than those with scopes and long stabilizers anyways.
Awards at local tournaments have always been a huge problem as far as expenses goes. You can't plan on how many "styles" will show up, so the awards are going out more as "attendance awards" than for competitive ones.

Why should a person that is alone in their shooting style or competing against one other person get a Silver Bowl or a State Title patch, or a Sectional Championship? Way back, it was the 3-5-7 ruling for awards, and frankly I think it should be that way at least.

I can see I'll be blistered on this opinion...but that is OK.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

KStover said:


> If we killed or left out any classes, several people would get angry. That’s what started this thread. And I’ll bet that attendance would drop. But it seems that something needs to be done.
> 
> Happy Trails
> Keith


So what....your never gonna make everyone happy...and you shouldn't try either. You can cost the organization as a whole....be it state, regional or the national level THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars because little old Betty over from Oh wants another bowl so she is still shooting barbow and the only woman in the country shooting it....in the grand scheme of things what is worse wasting a ton of money or loosing 5 people? If people quit because barebow tiddle winks isn't a class anymore....then they were shooting that class just to get a trophy anyway and to say they are "the best"

I am with f14 on this issue and always have been since I started shooting TARGET archery...equipment doesn't mean a dag on thing. 

It's the score you shoot.... A 530 shot with pins is no different then a 530 shot with FS equipment. Even more so today.....nobody said show up at this shoot and what you get equipment wise is what you have to shoot forever. If I shot pins better then FS gear I would shoot it...some guys don't like the movement they get with a scope and don't like a long rod. Guess what I am never seen a good housing that couldn't be shot without the glass....and lord knows 46 yds is a lot easier to shoot with the sight on 46 yds then it is gapping....if you want to use a short stab....guess what it's shoot what ya brung....if you think you shoot better with it let em eat....

put the 475-500 guys together....put the 501-525 guys together....put the 526-545 guys together etc....or whatever they work it out to be. 

the object of archery is to put the arrow in the middle....if someone is happy shooting a 400 on a field course because they shot with one leg on the tree next to them and only used one finger who cares...not my fault you don't like shooting better....but it also doesn't mean that there needs to be a class for you that is "special" either....

Go look at the #s from Nationals last summer....there were what 500+ shooters....I don't remember what I counted before....there were probably 300+ FS shooters and 150 BHFS shooters...that leaves 40-50 people divided up into all the other 25 classes. 

Trim the fat....sorry but when 90% or more of the shooters are FS and BHFS shooters....those are the ones you need to make happy and cater to. Not the group with 20 some classes with 5 people shooting it nationally.


----------



## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Brown Hornet and Field 14 got it right,and I agree with what they say.They eliminated the BHFS Pro class years ago,just when I was going to turn Pro in that class.Since it was no more I weighed my options and started to shoot with a scope.I havent looked back since.I guess its all how bad you want to shoot.


----------



## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

*Styles*

Well, I think they should get rid of all sights and release aids. Go back to what archery was--a bow and an arrow. Just have 3 divisions--compound, recurve and longbow. Fingers and no sights. I know, not very popular answer for all you release shooters, but as far as I'm conserned release shooting is not real archery, neither is a sliding field sight. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

Last years TX state indoor had 33 classes that had three or less shooters. These 33 classes had 55 shooters. These 55 represented 28.6% of the attendees. So some of you are saying screw them, they all need to shoot in a different class. I agree several classes need to be eliminated. But even then you will have numerous classes that just do not have many shooters. So what do we do? Continue as is? Give state champ belt buckles to winners in classes with 1, 2 or 3 shooters in them? 33 buckles for 55 shooters!
Is it fair to throw a cub into an older class? Is it fair for a BB shooter to compete with a sighted shooter? Is it fair for a recurve shooter to compete against a compound shooter?
I’ll bet that this group of folks would prefer the handicap idea over competing heads up with other classes. Do you think that the cubs would mind competing with each other with handicaps? Do you think that the seniors would mind competing with each other with handicaps? Or do you think that they would rather compete against other classes heads up? 
I would leave the popular classes alone and only combine, with handicaps, the less popular classes. One thing for sure, I would not leave it the way that it is.

I have learned form my corporate career that several minds are better than one. The best way to come up with solutions is to share ideas, with out repercussions, and to hitch hike off each others suggestions. I would like to see us come up with a way to resolve this issue and then try to get our NFAA reps to get it fixed. Yes I know I'm dreaming, but why not.

Keith


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

How about this?

Freestyle
Limited (Now FSL, BHFSL)
Hunter (Now BHFS) 
Barebow (Now BH, BB, Trad)
Pro (everyone shooting for money, regarless of equipment) 

cub, youth, young adult, adult, senior

That break down would promote more competition and reduce the cost of awards.


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Handicaps are just not going to work, it is not the real score and there will be a perception of unfairness.


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

dragonheart said:


> Handicaps are just not going to work, it is not the real score and there will be a perception of unfairness.


So what would you do with the only cub BB shooter, that attended our TFAA indoor? Make him shoot against the cub FS shooters? You don't think that this would cause a "perception of unfairness".

I'm not trying to ba a smart arse. But what would you do?

Keith


----------



## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Gapmaster said:


> Well, I think they should get rid of all sights and release aids. Go back to what archery was--a bow and an arrow. Just have 3 divisions--compound, recurve and longbow. Fingers and no sights. I know, not very popular answer for all you release shooters, but as far as I'm conserned release shooting is not real archery, neither is a sliding field sight. Just my 2 cents.


Thats like telling snipers they have to use wicks and wheelock guns.Adapt and overcome!


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Being a senior FSL shooter I do have an opinion for what it's worth. First, I should have been open minded and far sighted enough to see the future and changed to a hook thirty years ago. Second, Handicaps have never worked and will never work. Third, After spending hundreds of hours reading different opinions on controversial issues here on AT, I see there will probably never be close a consensus on absolutely anything. Fourth, I just have no clue as to why there aren't more finger shooters just basically because you can miss a spot or two outside or an X once and a while inside and still be right there.. I just don't get it. Last, When this generation passes, sadly, fingers will probably disappear on its own without hardly a whimper.  And I totally agree with the guys who said that this is target archery, not hunting practice.....That's what those ethafoam critters are for......


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*Easy*



KStover said:


> So what would you do with the only cub BB shooter, that attended our TFAA indoor? Make him shoot against the cub FS shooters? You don't think that this would cause a "perception of unfairness".
> 
> I'm not trying to ba a smart arse. But what would you do?
> 
> Keith


That is easy, give him an award. He is a cub and that is a recognized division. I think it would be unfair for him to shoot against FS and I never proposed that in my post from earlier. 

If you look back at the classes that I proposed, it is the kids classes with pro and hunter added. This way your kids that were into hunting setup could shoot a "kids" hunter class. I really do not think that the kid classes are a big issue. IMO if we are going to spend some money on awards lets give them to the kids, they are the future of the sport. 

As far as handicaps, I just do not see that. The issue for the NFAA is too many classes. Handicaps I just do not think or the answer. I can just here it now, well he won, but he was spotted 25 points so he really did not shoot that good. It is just not a genuine score.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Gapmaster said:


> Well, I think they should get rid of all sights and release aids. Go back to what archery was--a bow and an arrow. Just have 3 divisions--compound, recurve and longbow. Fingers and no sights. I know, not very popular answer for all you release shooters, but as far as I'm conserned release shooting is not real archery, neither is a sliding field sight. Just my 2 cents.


and you would be in the minority......just like the people that shoot those styles now :wink:

Fishing used to be done with string on a stick or wrapped around something....should we go back to that also?

Golf used to be played with a ball made out of a small sack of some sort....should we go back to that?


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

*NFAA not willing to address issue.*

This is what was proposed and shot down at the last NFAA meeting. It sounds pretty good to me.


17. Constitution page 47 Submitted by Texas code TX-2
RATIONALE: Texas 2009 Indoor Championship had 192 shooters. 17 divisions with on competitor, 12 divisions with only 2 competitors. That means that 29 belt buckles or first place awards were given out for 51 competitors.

Past NFAA directors are the reason for this problem. For some reason we are not willing to address the problem. We can argue all day about how many people you should compete against to be called State Champion but surely no one condones current percentages. Leadership must come from NFAA. It is not fair to state leaders to have to stand alone against this problem. A shooter cannot help how old he or she is but a
shooter can choose the class he or she shoots in. The current awards system is a disgrace.

In the past NFAA developed an awards system for smaller venues called the Unit System. It allowed for one award for 3 shooters, two awards for 6 and three awards for 7 or more. If we are not wiling to do away with shooting styles that are no longer strongly supported we need to provide for a more sensible awards system at the state level.

Please consider addressing this as you have awards and flights under the unit system. For smaller tournaments such as State and Sectional, allow classes to be combined for awards if there are not at least 3 in a shooting style.

The suggested combinations would guarantee at least 3 age brackets X 3 shooting styles or nine first place winners for men and also nine for women. That is 18 first place awards.

Proposed change: 1.1 At Sectional and State Tournaments, styles may be combined for awards if there are less than 3 in a style. Master Senior and Senior archers may elect to move to a younger age bracket to remain in their shooting style. If there are still styles with less than 3 archers, then the following combinations would be made.

Bowhunter Freestyle would move to Freestyle
Compound Finger styles would start at Bowhunter, then Barebow then Bowhunter Freestyle Limited then Freestyle Limited
Non Compound Finger styles would move from Traditional to Freestyle Ltd. Recurve/Longbow.
This does not apply to the Junior division archers.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

KStover said:


> Last years TX state indoor had 33 classes that had three or less shooters. These 33 classes had 55 shooters. These 55 represented 28.6% of the attendees. So some of you are saying screw them, they all need to shoot in a different class. I agree several classes need to be eliminated. But even then you will have numerous classes that just do not have many shooters. So what do we do? Continue as is? Give state champ belt buckles to winners in classes with 1, 2 or 3 shooters in them? 33 buckles for 55 shooters!
> Is it fair to throw a cub into an older class? Is it fair for a BB shooter to compete with a sighted shooter? Is it fair for a recurve shooter to compete against a compound shooter?
> I’ll bet that this group of folks would prefer the handicap idea over competing heads up with other classes. Do you think that the cubs would mind competing with each other with handicaps? Do you think that the seniors would mind competing with each other with handicaps? Or do you think that they would rather compete against other classes heads up?
> I would leave the popular classes alone and only combine, with handicaps, the less popular classes. One thing for sure, I would not leave it the way that it is.
> ...


nobody said anything about having no age classes.....

as for the # of shooters shooting odd ball classes.....combine and or eliminate.....archery seems to be the only sport that doesn't "trim the fat". If they don't want to do that FINE. But like I said States and Regional shoots and Nationals for that matter shouldn't be forced to WASTE money on awards for people with a couple shooters in the class. Seriously....can you really call yourself the State, Regional or National champ when you shot against NOBODY or less then 10 people? It's not like you have to qualify for these events....

This past summer at Nationals a lot of Bowls went to people with pretty much NOBODY in the class.....

AF BAREBOW 1 shooter
AFBHFS LTD 1 shooter
AFFS LIMITED 2 shooters
AFFS LTD. RECURVE/LONGBOW 2 shooters
AM Barebow 5 shooters
AM Bowhunter 5 shooters sorry but you can figure out a way to combine these two
AMBHFS LTD 1 shooter
CUB F BAREBOW 1 shooter
CUB M BAREBOW 1 shooter When your a cub does it really matter if your a boy or a girl
CUB FFS LIMITED 2 shooters
CUB MFS 4 shooters the winner of this class shot a 559 560 579 by the way 
CUB MFS LTD 2 shooters
PRO FFS 5 shooters......this is sad really :zip: :embara:
PRO FFS LTD 1 shooter seriously how is this class still around 
SENIOR F BHFS 1 shooter
SENIOR FFS LTD 3 shooters
SENIOR MBHFS LTD 3 shooters
SENIOR MFS LTD. RECURVE/LONGBOW 1 shooter
SENIOR PRO MFS LTD 1 shooter see my comments for PRO FFS LTD
YAM FS LTD. REC/LONGBOW 1 shooter
YOUTH FFS 2 shooters
YOUTH M BAREBOW 1 shooter
YOUTH MFS 3 shooters

Now I am not trying to take ANYTHING away from the shooters and their ability.....but seriously....there is a lot of FAT there. That is 23 classes at NATIONALS with 5 or less shooters....and they all got BOWLS. Some of those classes could be eliminated or combined in some way

You don't need to make cubs shoot with older kids....you don't need to have ladies and gents together....but there is no reason to have classes just because either


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

dragonheart said:


> How about this?
> 
> Freestyle
> Limited (Now FSL, BHFSL)
> ...


exactly.....and change BHFS to PINS.....your not hunting it's target archery :wink:


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> Being a senior FSL shooter I do have an opinion for what it's worth. First, I should have been open minded and far sighted enough to see the future and changed to a hook thirty years ago. Second, Handicaps have never worked and will never work. Third, After spending hundreds of hours reading different opinions on controversial issues here on AT, I see there will probably never be close a consensus on absolutely anything. Fourth, I just have no clue as to why there aren't more finger shooters just basically because you can miss a spot or two outside or an X once and a while inside and still be right there.. I just don't get it. Last, When this generation passes, sadly, fingers will probably disappear on its own without hardly a whimper.  And I totally agree with the guys who said that this is target archery, not hunting practice.....That's what those ethafoam critters are for......


I hear ya.....I used to shoot fingers when I started....actually like shooting fingers.  BUT I shoot a release better and the object is to hit what I am aiming at.....and I do that a lot better with a release :wink:

Kind of like shooting a rifle....I can shoot pretty darn good with open sights....but I shoot much better with a scope 

same goes for pins....shoot them fine. But I would much rather shoot a scope and a slider


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

KStover said:


> This is what was proposed and shot down at the last NFAA meeting. It sounds pretty good to me.
> 
> 
> 17. Constitution page 47 Submitted by Texas code TX-2
> ...


That one was doomed from the get-go by blaming directors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*Ughh!*

I know the proposal was with the best intentions to promote competition and address the current issue with $ for awards, but that is a bit too much. I am not throwing stones, but I can see why that got shot down. The issue is still the classes, not a system of issuing awards. 

A particular class becomes the shooters identity. It is how they see themselves in archery. Until the classes are reduced, I think ideas like this have good intentions, but just are not going to work. Many people can get down right irrate when discussing this subject. Why is that? Because they feel threatned by the change in their shooter identity. The idea of adapting to a new method, when you have shot so long and put so much effort into "your" way of shooting if difficult. 

I do think there are people who shoot in unpopular classes that enjoy that style of shooting and that has become their shooter identity or their self perception in archery. There are people that compete in a given class, not to get a "handout" award, but because that is "how they shoot", that is "who they are in archery". 

I have at one point or another shot every class in the NFAA. I like to shoot barebow, an unpopular class. Am I looking for a "handout" award, no. Do I recognize that the NFAA class system is way too many classes, yes. 

I think back to growing up in archery. It keep me focussed and I needed that as a young adult. I spent my evenings shooting 14 at the local field club. In the current system a local club cannot afford to have an invitational tournament with trophies because of all the classes and the expense. i think the class consolidation is the answer. Will it happen? Has not so far.


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I have an answer and hardly anyone will like it. I think that there should only be one state, sectional, and national champion in each shooting style Male and female. This should be at the adult distances. Leave the kid's awards alone... They are the future of our sport. Let's say at the nationals, you still have Young Adult, Adult, Senior, and master senior in each style. The highest scores regardless of age would be the national champ and get a bowl.....Can you imagine a Youth winning the indoor nationals in a shoot off with an adult????Then each winner in each age group would get a lesser but significant award. This giving a zillion bowls really cheapens the name NFAA national champ.....I have no problem combining styles as long as hooks don't compete with fingers...This giving bowls, sectional champs, and state to people shooting with no competition is a pretty hollow victory. I shot SFSL by myself at the sectional last year. Kinda like kissing your sister. I didn't want the award, but they sent it to me anyway... Let me also say that I think we should be more worried about the fact that there are so few kids out there shooting than how many awards we are giving.


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*kissing your sister*



Unclegus said:


> I have an answer and hardly anyone will like it. I think that there should only be one state, sectional, and national champion in each shooting style Male and female. This should be at the adult distances. Leave the kid's awards alone... They are the future of our sport. Let's say at the nationals, you still have Young Adult, Adult, Senior, and master senior in each style. The highest scores regardless of age would be the national champ and get a bowl.....Can you imagine a Youth winning the indoor nationals in a shoot off with an adult????Then each winner in each age group would get a lesser but significant award. This giving a zillion bowls really cheapens the name NFAA national champ.....I have no problem combining styles as long as hooks don't compete with fingers...This giving bowls, sectional champs, and state to people shooting with no competition is a pretty hollow victory. I shot SFSL by myself at the sectional last year. Kinda like kissing your sister. I didn't want the award, but they sent it to me anyway... Let me also say that I think we should be more worried about the fact that there are so few kids out there shooting than how many awards we are giving.


"like kissing your sister" you are a poet. That is an awsome way with words! LOL


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Poet? I like that. I figured you'd say something about kissing your sister because I'm from West Virginia....:wink:


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Well it did cross my mi....


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> I have an answer and hardly anyone will like it. I think that there should only be one state, sectional, and national champion in each shooting style Male and female. This should be at the adult distances. Leave the kid's awards alone... They are the future of our sport. Let's say at the nationals, you still have Young Adult, Adult, Senior, and master senior in each style. The highest scores regardless of age would be the national champ and get a bowl.....Can you imagine a Youth winning the indoor nationals in a shoot off with an adult????Then each winner in each age group would get a lesser but significant award. This giving a zillion bowls really cheapens the name NFAA national champ.....I have no problem combining styles as long as hooks don't compete with fingers...This giving bowls, sectional champs, and state to people shooting with no competition is a pretty hollow victory. I shot SFSL by myself at the sectional last year. Kinda like kissing your sister. I didn't want the award, but they sent it to me anyway... Let me also say that I think we should be more worried about the fact that there are so few kids out there shooting than how many awards we are giving.


I agree....and have for a good deal of time. I love the FITA classes....age groups and then you either shoot compound or freakcurve. 

Flung what ya brung


----------



## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Here is my take on the issue and I don't think that the Directors have a problem with making the changes but they have to be given the direction by the members. Anyway here is what I think might work!!!
Lets take just one style and work from there, NFAA Bowhunter (that is non-sighted with short 12 Stab) All adult ages shoot from 18 to 55 years of age(Lets use the 80 yard walkup) shoot from all 4 positions, now take the Senior age BH shooters they only shoot 2 arrows from 60 and 50yds, now take the MS age BH (I know that it does not now exist) older than 65 shoot all four shots from 50. What you have now done is made the playing field level, this is because the Eyes and mussels(SP) go as you get older. Now you have only Bowhunter there is no actual age seperation except for distance shot. you can use the stakes as they are now and by allowing the older shooters to use closer stakes you have made the playing field more level. I know that there is exceptions to the age thing but if someone still has it it would be choice to shoot as same as the Adult shooters. This is only a start but you are a bunch of smart people I am sure that someone could fiqure this out and eliminate at least some of the age groups.. Something to think about.


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*bigger view*

If you go to the IFAA website and look through the tournament scores participation on a world stage in the differnent classes. Unsighted recurve and compound classes are quite competative with the number of participants. In 2006, mens compound bowhuter (nonsighted) had 45 shooters. Just found that interesting that we talk about certain classes not having participation in the USA, but in a bigger picture those classes may be quite large in other areas of the world. Australia appears to have a great many barebow and bowhunter shooters probably because a sight cost a gizzilion dollars over there. Interesting.


----------



## rsw (May 22, 2002)

When we have some 50 "kings" running the show, we can't effect any meaningful changes so we will have to live with the NFAA rules as they stand; however, the states don't have to do so. If I were "king for the day" I would institute a change something like this. Organize into divisions: men; women; young adult; youth; cubs; and pro men/women.

This would yield a possible 7 state/national champions. The entire body of competitors would be divided by class just like the Vegas flights. This would drastically reduce the number of awards as well as Champions while providing a competitive relationship amongst those of similar scoring capability. Of course luck plays a part in this system, but the competition remains a viable part of the tournament.

Another possibility would be to eliminate any division with fewer than three competitors and allow those so eliminated to register to shoot in a different class. Or, simply divide into sighted and unsighted classes by age. 

We have allowed the "kings" to create an incredible quagmire that more and more threatens to destroy the entire empire, and we have no recourse with the dinosaurs who so ineffectively run the ship. I believe we need to demand they submit a survey to each member which would generate information regarding how the masses view our current ruling structure. Hopefully, this might lead to formation of a panel of "non-kings" to consider and submit a binding recommendation for reorganization of the NFAA in accordance with the membership majority desire.


----------



## pops1 (Jul 13, 2009)

Ron Meadows said:


> Just a sign of our politically correct times and I doubt that it's ever going to change. Every kid has to get a trophy now and each has to have the exact same playing time in virtually all sports. Sad really, but us as a nation have lost the stomach to do anything but conform.


VERY well put and I agree 150% We have all but took away the drive for kids to earn anything anymore. My sons basket ball team didn't win a game all year but they all received a trophy!! If it were up to me they would have gotten a good ole "better luck next time boys" or "need to bring a better game next year" without the trophy. Please don't get me started.


----------



## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

KStover said:


> Past NFAA directors are the reason for this problem. For some reason we are not willing to address the problem. We can argue all day about how many people you should compete against to be called State Champion but surely no one condones current percentages. Leadership must come from NFAA. It is not fair to state leaders to have to stand alone against this problem. A shooter cannot help how old he or she is but a shooter can choose the class he or she shoots in. The current awards system is a disgrace.


Why should the NATIONAL Field Archery Association have to pass a rule that applies to the STATE level? If Texas wants to combine classes then have at it. Every state should have their own constitution. No reason why this can't be addressed at the state level. No reason to blame the NFAA for not helping when you're capable of helping yourself.


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

JPE said:


> Why should the NATIONAL Field Archery Association have to pass a rule that applies to the STATE level? If Texas wants to combine classes then have at it. Every state should have their own constitution. No reason why this can't be addressed at the state level. No reason to blame the NFAA for not helping when you're capable of helping yourself.


So you want to go seceed from the NFAA. TFAA and other state organizations are a part of the NFAA.


----------



## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

In West Virginia, if a man and woman get divorced, does that mean they can no longer be brother and sister?


----------



## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

dragonheart said:


> So you want to go seceed from the NFAA. TFAA and other state organizations are a part of the NFAA.


Not at all. Every state should have their own constitution and by laws that spell out how they operate. Most likely cover the officer positions, how their elections work, etc. There is nothing that says a state can't declare that they will combine certain classes at state tournaments.


----------



## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

*State indoor*



psargeant said:


> Yeah State Championships are typically a losing endeavor due to the number of recognized styles. This year, we named 23 "state Champions" from 79 shooters and gave out a total of something like 36 awards...12 of the "State Champions" had to beat no one...
> 
> Sorry, but what the NFAA needs is less classes, not more...


thats what we do here its crazy you can register and shoot as many different classes as you want just pay up ! and eventually you will find a class with no competion so you can get a plack that says you are a state champion whhhhoooooo!!!!


----------



## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

*No*



FS560 said:


> In West Virginia, if a man and woman get divorced, does that mean they can no longer be brother and sister?


NO the closest relation they can be is like in Va. first cousins!


----------



## wheelie (Mar 2, 2009)

What age is senior, 50 get me in that class yet?


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

wheelie said:


> What age is senior, 50 get me in that class yet?


Nope...55...


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

*some* of the asa state champs are the same way as some of the nfaa state champs. very few participants in classes other than hunter of open.


----------



## ckulow (Jul 20, 2009)

*Kids & Geezers*

What I think Mike is referring to have a level playing field. Yes a MS can do down a class to Senior but how does a youth change classes. Here's my suggestion. Keep the ages the same and have these classes. Coumpound Release - no restrictions on sights or stabilizers, Compond Fingers - again no restrictions on equipment, Barebow Compound, Traditional - recurve or longbow but no sights, Recurve/Olympic style.

Carl


----------



## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

At our invitationals, there are 2 classes ....
Money - All others
Our entry fees are adjusted for age groups and/or members vs. non-members, as well as the money class costing more w/80% going back to the participants.

When you're getting 20 or less entries, anything more is just not economically feasible!
It's not all about making money ... but if you make none, you aren't gonna be around for very long.

Is it fair for everyone to be lumped together?
Thus far we've had no complaints.
And when the 1 (ONE) cub that we have regularly places above adults, you can literally see his excitement and sense of accomplishment shining from his face!

This will be only our 2nd season of hosting competitions, and the 1st for sanctioned events.
As attendance grows, (and it will), we may have to adjust things slightly.
But for invitationals, I can tell you now that there won't be a gazillion classes so that half the entries can get an "attendance" award.

I literally HATE the modern day attitude that there are no losers.
You either win, or you lose.
If one wants to win, then more practice & dedication is required.

Oh, and the flighting system .... give me a freaking break.
If I'm 2nd place in the 2nd flight, that means I'm the 9th loser!
Not deserving a 2nd place award of ANY kind.
Sorry .... slight rant coming on there. 

Guess I'd better shut up now before more folks get riled.
Just my honest opinion.
Hope I haven't offended too many.


----------



## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

JPE said:


> Why should the NATIONAL Field Archery Association have to pass a rule that applies to the STATE level? If Texas wants to combine classes then have at it. Every state should have their own constitution. No reason why this can't be addressed at the state level. No reason to blame the NFAA for not helping when you're capable of helping yourself.



Is this true? Can the state organizations change a few things and still be affiliated with the NFAA? Or do we have to follow their rules to the letter?

Keith


----------



## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

What i would like to see is instead of eliminating classes is: Cubs, recurves,and longbows shoot from the cub stake. Then all other fingershooters(FSL,BHFSL,BB and BH shoot with the youth at their stake. And all release shooters from the adult stake.

All scores will be tabulated in just two classes, Men and Women


That way you compete against everyone at the tournament


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

KStover said:


> Is this true? Can the state organizations change a few things and still be affiliated with the NFAA? Or do we have to follow their rules to the letter?
> 
> Keith


From the constitution and by-laws...(page 12)
Association Membership:
1. Association Membership shall be granted to one association of any state, foreign country or
countries that supports the principals of, a*nd abides by the rules, regulations, procedures
and policies adopted by the National Field Archery Association* upon payment of proper
fees and dues established by the NFAA. That association shall be the governing association
for NFAA activities within its respective area and may promote individual programs to

So it really doesn't look like you could by the letter of the "law"...


----------

