# Question on Form



## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

hi i am posting this in the pro forum because i need help i just got into competition shooting last year and am shooting really good 3D and indoor but was wondering if i am doing anything wrong i have no idea on what the proper form is my dad shoots for hunting and no one every taught him form so he cant teach me im really just shooting because im not sure what i need too do correctly hear is a picture of me shooting please tell me if it looks like i need too improve with something or change something 

thanks for the help, Kyle


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

Im not a expert but your leaning back and your release hand is too far backI would say your draw is about a 1" long you could also square your body up a bit.


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## spwz99 (Dec 3, 2008)

I was taught that having your fingers straight out like that is just as bad as gripping the bow. Try to just let them curl naturally.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

spwz99 said:


> I was taught that having your fingers straight out like that is just as bad as gripping the bow. Try to just let them curl naturally.


 was told to hold my fingers out because i used too grip


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## spwz99 (Dec 3, 2008)

hoytarchery999 said:


> was told to hold my fingers out because i used too grip


I did the same thing but was recently told not to by someone who knows more about it than I do. 
I think the issue is not that putting your fingers out is "bad," its just harder to do consistently than letting your hand relax.


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*pretty good*

you look pretty good, what kind of scores are you shooting indoor?

your probably an inch too long on your draw length that should straighten you up, but be aware not to lean back...an easy fix to make sure you are straight at full draw is to

when you start to pull your bow back actually be leaning forward a bit so once your drawn back, you'll be more apt to being straight up and down as opposed to leaning back.

think of your grip on the bow as a balance in having control without tension...
you can "white knuckle" the grip by hanging on to it and on the other side of the spectrum you can be all tensed up in your bow arm making sure to "have your fingers out" ...either way, that tension kills accuracy.

a good test for you to check if you have as little tension as possible is at full draw with your bow grip hand you should be able to wiggle your fingers easily, even the pinky...if you can't at first, work on it, it' ll really help your game.

Good shooting!


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

The shorter dl might do it but it wouldnt hurt to straighten your release arm and bring your elbow up and your bow shoulder kinda looks scrunched up.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

i cant make the draw length shorter the bow has the vector cam 1/2 and isnt adjustable its stuck at 29" unless i get new cams.


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## docdada (Sep 15, 2008)

sounds like alot of good advice is being mentioned. just to reiterate a bit: general posture is off balance ( leaning back ) also the stance apears to be open. the open bow hand has alot of torque similar to white knuckle grip. try to relax. also the draw length is another good question. do you have a loop on your string that could be gotten rid of. 
check out the book core archery by larry wise. 
consistant repetition.
good luck - have fun


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*draw length*

throw 10-15 twist in the string, shorten d-loop if possible


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

As others have said, I think your draw length is too long. Also, by extending your grip hand fingers like that, you create tension in your grip. Just let them relax and hang. 
I think your peep is way too high, lower it so you can settle in on an anchor point behind your ear/jaw. Right now it looks like your release hand is just floating.
Good luck and keep at it!

Lien2


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

DL too long and you need numbers of sessions to correct your whole posture.
During the process I'd recommend you decrease the DW as well.

PS
I doubt twists will help, you'll need new cams.


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*guys!*

it's important to note that HE ISN'T THAT BAD!
He's pretty good, just a couple tweaks, don't freak out and make Crazy changes, just make the adjustments and coaching, take another pic, and you've got people on here that'll help you see what's up.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

If nothing else I would twist the string but I doubt you will get it short enough you might have one made shorter but it will throw your cams out of rotation.


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

can you shorten the length of the release? That would be the first thing I would do.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Kyle, what part of PA are you from. I think I saw a post that you are from the Carlisle area, correct. Check with Mechanicsburg Archery Club. There are plenty of guys there that will help you with your needs. Most of them are bowhunter shooters, but it's still the same principle in form. Also, the guys from Harrisburg Archery Club(which I also shoot for) are all unlimited shooters, and will be able to help you also. Find a good shop that can help you. Baker's in Halifax(about 30 minutes from Carlisle) is a great shop that will help you out, or check with Lancaster Archery. I deal with them, but I do all my own tuning, but there are a lot of guys there that can get you started in the right direction. Feel free to PM me, and I'll try to help ya out with what I can. I'm a little over an hour away from Carlisle, to the north.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

archerpap said:


> Kyle, what part of PA are you from. I think I saw a post that you are from the Carlisle area, correct. Check with Mechanicsburg Archery Club. There are plenty of guys there that will help you with your needs. Most of them are bowhunter shooters, but it's still the same principle in form. Also, the guys from Harrisburg Archery Club(which I also shoot for) are all unlimited shooters, and will be able to help you also. Find a good shop that can help you. Baker's in Halifax(about 30 minutes from Carlisle) is a great shop that will help you out, or check with Lancaster Archery. I deal with them, but I do all my own tuning, but there are a lot of guys there that can get you started in the right direction. Feel free to PM me, and I'll try to help ya out with what I can. I'm a little over an hour away from Carlisle, to the north.


I am from Carlsile PA and i shot at mechanicsburg last tuesday i sent my membership in a couple weeks ago i should be getting something back here soon i went with a friend we were gonna go tonight but cancelled due too the ice are you a member there and it just looks like my release was too long its just a picture it just looks long because my hand isnt up on it i wasnt actually shooting. heres a few more pics and also i got the bow from Lancaster Archery.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

i am not a member yet, but I shoot there a few times a year. I'll be joining after the new year to get ready for the outdoor nationals there in july. I shoot in the CVAL and Penn Dutch leagues at their club. CVAL has classes you can shoot in, but the Penn Dutch league is unlimited or bowhunter unlimited, so you'll be shooting with some really good shooters, but you could learn a lot in either league. CVAL shoots twice there, and PD shoots once.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

i think in that last pic you posted here you can really see how much your leaning, try to keep your spine straight, whole body straight, with bow arm out and no spine/body movement then you can draw back, this will show you how far off your DL is as with a straight body youll be anchored back on your face a bit. Depending on where its at now you may be able to shorten that string some to take some of the DL out, hopefully you can get enough out. Did Lancaster fit you for that bow? or did you just buy without any help?


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

dwagoner said:


> i think in that last pic you posted here you can really see how much your leaning, try to keep your spine straight, whole body straight, with bow arm out and no spine/body movement then you can draw back, this will show you how far off your DL is as with a straight body youll be anchored back on your face a bit. Depending on where its at now you may be able to shorten that string some to take some of the DL out, hopefully you can get enough out. Did Lancaster fit you for that bow? or did you just buy without any help?


i know i can be strait when i remember the whole problem is remembering like i notice i can shoot better when i dont let the bow drop after a shot but yet you dont know how hard it is for me too remember i forget alot. and yes lancaster fit me for that bow the one guy said it looked too short when i pulled it back but without a release when he seen me but the rest said it looked fine my ultratec is set at a 30" draw and i shoot it fine ive taken 2 deer with it like that and my seven 37 im gonna start hunting with is 29" as well but i can adjust it


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

Kyle,
Thanks for the second pics. Like it or not, it definitely looks like your DL is too long. The string is past your nose and you're leaning back to compensate and trying to get your head behind the string enough to see through the peep. Shortening your release won't help this. Not only are you leaning back, but it looks like most of your weight is on your front foot, causing you to throw your hips forward, leading to even more leaning than normal. I haven't tried it yet, but one tip I've heard is to practice your posture with a bow square or arrow shaft stuck in your belt. It'll give you a gentle poke in the ribs if you lean back too far.

It's a nice looking bow, it's simply too long for you. I ended up buying a new bow rather than investing in cams for an old model. I'd check the classifieds and see if you can find some new cams.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Dave V said:


> Kyle,
> Thanks for the second pics. Like it or not, it definitely looks like your DL is too long. The string is past your nose and you're leaning back to compensate and trying to get your head behind the string enough to see through the peep. Shortening your release won't help this. Not only are you leaning back, but it looks like most of your weight is on your front foot, causing you to throw your hips forward, leading to even more leaning than normal. I haven't tried it yet, but one tip I've heard is to practice your posture with a bow square or arrow shaft stuck in your belt. It'll give you a gentle poke in the ribs if you lean back too far.
> 
> It's a nice looking bow, it's simply too long for you. I ended up buying a new bow rather than investing in cams for an old model. I'd check the classifieds and see if you can find some new cams.


ok i will thanks i wanna try that arrow shaft thing but ill have too try tomorrow i can lean forward as well but i forget because noone ever told me before im gonna remember though thanks everyone and someone said the clarifier peep looks way too high i can see just fine at 20yds as well up too 80yds i dont think the peep is a problem at all


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm going to try and post a "skeleton" view pic to illustrate. I'm no "Nuts and Bolts" but I'll try:










The blue line is the desired line from elbow, through release, to bow grip. You can see by the green line that your elbow is dropped and your wrist is too high. This is a direct result of having a DL that's too long. Shortening up the DL will raise your elbow and straighten your wrist.

Some of the posture is the off-angle picture, but it does look like your hips are thrown a bit too far forward and your back leg has very little weight on it. These are the kinds of things you can't see for yourself. Keep taking pics and referring back to them to see how you look. The ideal posture would be a perfect "T" shape as seen in the mirror with no bow in hand, standing straight and both arms out to the sides as if you're trying to stop traffic. If you can maintain that position while shooting, everything will eventually start to feel better. You might get tired at first, as right now you're "cheating" by not using your muscles to hold yourself and your bow upright.

It's not that your Clarifier is too high, (although I think it is). Peep height has nothing to do with seeing out to 80 yds, but that your anchor is too low and wandering somewhere below your jaw. I understand it's probably necessary though right now due to the long DL.

Check out this thread for more:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=6830847#post6830847


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

Ok your leaning way back I heard you say somthing about droping out of the target that is partly due to the long dl your knuckle should be just in front off your ear hole im fixing to find and post some pics that nut and bolts sent me. I think you are way to long on the draw atleast a inch maybe more its hard to tell with that much lean. I think you would see a huge improvement droping your dl it would starghten your body out.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

pics I hope luggnut dont mind me posting them to help you. The one in the yellow is me my draw was about 3/4 long in that pic.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

thanks


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

You see how much the dl changes made the posture change. Its more diffacult on dl specific cams to get it just right. You will be alot more consistent if you get a better posture and dl it will give you alot better anchor point and be more repeatable. Its defenitly worth doing even if your like me and have to buy cams and sell the extras after you figure it out.


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## Scalded_Dawg (May 19, 2006)

*Release length...*



AT_X_HUNTER said:


> can you shorten the length of the release? That would be the first thing I would do.


I agree, the release length looks really long. A short style thumb trigger would take out a lot of the proposed long DL and put your hand up on your jaw for a solid consistent anchor.

Also agree that your left hand could relax on the grip. Might also roll your wrist up and take some of the heel pressure off the bottom of the grip.

One more important note... Your form is really not that bad... these are all very critical inputs to tweak on (you asked for it  ).

The most important thing you can do -- get comfortable and shoot -- a lot!

Best of Luck,


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

I agree that the release is long but that will not change the lean the dl is putting on you if I had to guess your dl by the pic if thats a 30 I would say 28" or less.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

riley1131 said:


> I agree that the release is long but that will not change the lean the dl is putting on you if I had to guess your dl by the pic if thats a 30 I would say 28" or less.


ok the draw length is 29 and the release is really not that long i just didnt have my had up on the release because i wasnt shooting i just did it for the picture


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

hoytarchery999 said:


> ok i will thanks i wanna try that arrow shaft thing but ill have too try tomorrow i can lean forward as well but i forget because noone ever told me before im gonna remember though thanks everyone and someone said the clarifier peep looks way too high i can see just fine at 20yds as well up too 80yds i dont think the peep is a problem at all


It was me that said your peep looks too high. A few things:
1.) Where do you anchor? It looks like your release hand is just floating by your neck instead of under your ear/jaw. Look at Randy Ulmers pic a few posts ago.
2.) Measure the distance from your loop to your peep and post it here.
3.) There may be a coincidence why your scope is so high on your sight, maybe not too though.
Remember, we are all just trying to help!

Lien2


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

hoytarchery999 said:


> ok the draw length is 29 and the release is really not that long i just didnt have my had up on the release because i wasnt shooting i just did it for the picture


A wrist style release like you have puts your hand further away from the string. A release that gets your hand closer to the string will make the bow fit you better. I use a wrist release for hunting. I have it set as short as possible and I still have to shoot a shorter draw length on my hunting bow than I do with my other rigs.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

heres a great vid to help you out with your wide open finger grip, trust what he says about the grip

http://www.bowhunting.net/bowtube/media/79/Get_A_Grip_-_Larry_Wise/

trust what alot are saying about posture also, it will help you in the long run for sure. Cams for the bow arent too bad to purchase, alot depends on if they use the same string length, but honestly if someone at LAS saw you drawing the bow leaning that much and said it was good DL then kinda makes me wonder why they would say that its fine.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

There is no measurement that will get it perfect but I have found that if you take a arrow just a arrow put the nock between your fingers stand up straight and draw it to the corner of your mouth have somebody mark the arrow where your hand would meet the grip you have to have the arrow level for this to work then measure from where the string would be with the arrow nocked on the string to the mark you made and add 1.75" this should get you in the ballpark. Like I said if thats a 29" in the first pic by the time you straighten up and get your anchor right you are going to be much shorter. It looks to me like its so long that you have moved your front foot toward the back of your body tring to increase your spread. I cant tell by the pic what size you are but 29" and 30" draws I consider to be long I am between 5"11" and 6ft with a wing span of 69.5 and the pic you see with me is a 27.25 draw and like I said I have droped it 1/2" from that since.I dont understand how any qualified tech could fit you with that draw I would take it to lancaster if it was recent and show them your lean and anchor and ask if they would swap the cams or atleast let you try some shorter ones untill you get it right and then buy the ones that fit. I would start around 27" and go from there.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

I cant do it like nuts and bolts but this pic will give you a idea of how far off center your body is.The line running down the center should be very close to your belt buckle or zipper.


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

Scalded_Dawg said:


> One more important note... Your form is really not that bad... these are all very critical inputs to tweak on (you asked for it  ).


I agree. But that doesn't negate the fact that these small changes will have a significant effect. At his age, I was flinging arrows all over the place with a too heavy recurve. Considering the advances in technology, and places like AT, he's getting help that would be unheard of just a few years before.

I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures from Kyle as he works on some of these suggestions.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Dave V said:


> I agree. But that doesn't negate the fact that these small changes will have a significant effect. At his age, I was flinging arrows all over the place with a too heavy recurve. Considering the advances in technology, and places like AT, he's getting help that would be unheard of just a few years before.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures from Kyle as he works on some of these suggestions.


im going out too shoot right now i have a picture of me shooting my old bow as well and it was a 26" DL so i went from 26" way too short too 29" DL 
and guys i do really appreciate your help.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

Ok your still leaning but you have alot of bend in your elbow but if you straighten your arm and stand up straight it would look alot better but I will venture to say that the 26 is not way to short. If you straighten that bow arm out it should force you to lean forward to see through the peep and its going to be close in my opinion much closer to your correct dl then the 29.


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

It looks like you've grown some since then. I wouldn't even worry about the earlier pictures as they really don't apply anymore. You've already improved since then. It does look though that you've been stuck with some bad "leaning" habits early. Break that habit now before it's permanent, and get your new bow fitted properly and you should do great.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

riley1131 said:


> Ok your still leaning but you have alot of bend in your elbow but if you straighten your arm and stand up straight it would look alot better but I will venture to say that the 26 is not way to short. If you straighten that bow arm out it should force you to lean forward to see through the peep and its going to be close in my opinion much closer to your correct dl then the 29.


that 26" DL was way way too short my left elbow was bent so bad that sometimes when i pulled that bow back the string slammed back forward my elbow was bent bad it was so uncomfortable but the guys at lancaster archery said that the 29" DL looked good and those last pictures were only taken in august of this year so about 4 months ago


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

Dave V said:


> It looks like you've grown some since then. I wouldn't even worry about the earlier pictures as they really don't apply anymore. You've already improved since then. It does look though that you've been stuck with some bad "leaning" habits early. Break that habit now before it's permanent, and get your new bow fitted properly and you should do great.


I thought those pics were just took.


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

hoytarchery999 said:


> that 26" DL was way way too short my left elbow was bent so bad that sometimes when i pulled that bow back the string slammed back forward my elbow was bent bad it was so uncomfortable but the guys at lancaster archery said that the 29" DL looked good and those last pictures were only taken in august of this year so about 4 months ago


Ok I cant say about the size difference now and then but you if you take your old bow and straighten your bow arm out in the pics from 4 months ago your bow arm was bent too much but your anchor point was too far back and you were leaning back to get behind the string if you straighten your arm out and shift everything foward I think it would line up it may be short but not 3 inches short. That would help flaten your release arm and bring your body forward.


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

ok i still didnt get out tonight to try those technics and proper forms in action but i did pull back my bow inside and try too find an anchor point and lean forward too see how it feels too be strait and all seems ok now i just need too shoot yea i was pulling my bow back in the house with an arrow in just trying too find a good anchor spot and straiten up until my mom saw the arrow in the bow pointed at the wall and she stopped that real quick i will try too try the new techniques in action tomorow morning before school i wanted too tonight but only have an hour and a half by the time i get home til dark and tonight there was snow on the ground and a 4wheeler that was calling my name so i had too.

once again thanks guys.


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## tylerolsen12 (Feb 8, 2007)

everyones advice so far has been great i would say you have a 27.5 to 28 in DL when you stand up straight how tall are you and what is your wingspan measurement?


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

ok i remember someone in this thread told me that i should have an anchor point with my release right before my ear hole i was just in the back yard shooting in the dark with a flash light taped to my bow, and i cant seem to figure that out where my release should be i can lean forward and shoot and my dad says im strait and im comfortable at that but where my release should be is what i am wondering now i cant get it up by my ear hole but only down like right where my jaw pivots.


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

Bud, shorten your release as much as possible. If your current (Tru Fire?) won't get short enough grab a Tru Ball Short n sweet or a little goose with the NCS and drop an inch or so.
Have fun!


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Flip Flop said:


> Bud, shorten your release as much as possible. If your current (Tru Fire?) won't get short enough grab a Tru Ball Short n sweet or a little goose with the NCS and drop an inch or so.
> Have fun!


im gettin a new release next week i think a tru ball and yes that is a tru fire but when i looked at releases before my tru fire was extremely short compared too most others and my best friend has a short n sweet and i didnt think it made a difference when i shot it.


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

See if you can get ahold of your buddies SnS and set it as short as it goes. I bet you will be real close to having your release hand contact you jaw bone.

Do you have any clubs or leagues around, if so find the first 300 55+ X shooter and ask for some help.

Did the shop you purchased this bow from take a look at you at full draw?


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

Oops....sorry I just saw that this is in the Pros spot and I am definatley not a Pro but I do set up a couple hundered shooters a year


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Flip Flop said:


> See if you can get ahold of your buddies SnS and set it as short as it goes. I bet you will be real close to having your release hand contact you jaw bone.
> 
> Do you have any clubs or leagues around, if so find the first 300 55+ X shooter and ask for some help.
> 
> Did the shop you purchased this bow from take a look at you at full draw?


yea i got the bow from lancaster archery and they said the draw looked good the one guy said it looked too short and yes i am a member of an indoor league at the local club but indoor hasnt started yet


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

here is a picture of my release on my hand i actually think that this one is too short


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

Yeah it looks plenty short.......too many hours lookin on the net I quess:shade:


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## riley1131 (Sep 11, 2008)

That is the part of your hand that should be just in font or iline of your earhole at full draw. Im sorry imwrong about that the upside down hand had me confused. Refer to the pics on page one for proper hand placement.


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## SERBIANSHARK (Nov 15, 2006)

*?*

Young man...whats your wingspan? Go and please measure it standing face against the wal....don't try to gain any extra length by forcing the reach wider. Have dad tape measure it exactly. Put one tip of your one hand in the corner of a room. he can then just measure the length from the corner...to the tip of the other hand.


How tall are you? 5' 7" ???


My guess is around 66"-67".


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