# Anyone at pro/am in Alabama... How are the targets?



## Barn Burner Strings (Sep 10, 2011)

I wasn't in Flordia so I can say on a comparison. However they seem to be good here.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

They're standing better. But the foam still sucks


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Foam not great.....black targets still showing tan foam .

But they are standing up

No pvc at every target

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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

The targets are stretched out there


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Yea.....thought that as well 

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## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Much better fit. Paint is a little better but the colors are off. Standing up fine


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## Chase Hatcher (Jan 30, 2012)

Foam didn't hold up very well, but pulled very easily. Black targets need black foam instead of brown. And the large alert deer on my range needed sticks to hold it up.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

The lower 12's were non existent on the k45 range today. lol


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The new test foam on some of the targets held up great from what I heard.....they wouldn't say what targets were 
Made with it though....also , they know what they are doing for Fla next year...double staking......also they have longer rods as well.....they do know they have to work on the paint....the engineers were there on thurs an Fri


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

Did they have plastic legs????


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Interested in people opinions on the targets.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

They need a way to lock the legs. When the rotate the target will lean back or forward depending on how it is facing. Also stop using brown foam on black targets. The targets on d range today were trashed.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

What waa wrong with last years model targets??????


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

bhtr3d said:


> The new test foam on some of the targets held up great from what I heard.....they wouldn't say what targets were
> Made with it though....also , they know what they are doing for Fla next year...double staking......also they have longer rods as well.....they do know they have to work on the paint....the engineers were there on thurs an Fri


The engineers should have been there Sunday to see how bad the targets are with only 500 shots in them (high estimate)

They have a long way to go.

Craziest one i saw was the black buck that the kill zone was a brown. 

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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

Garceau said:


> The engineers should have been there Sunday to see how bad the targets are with only 500 shots in them (high estimate)
> 
> They have a long way to go.
> 
> ...


That's a good assessment. I agree. Saw a decent amount of pass throughs on targets and a good amount of targets whipping around when the arrows hit them.


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

My only complaint was brown foam on black targets. Other than that I thought they were fine. The plastic legs are a bit tacky but I see their function. It is a little discouraging that some targets had connectors and some not.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

another observation that I had: ASA needs more than one practice range for the mount of shooters in Alabama. They were beyond chewed up too! Saw a few arrows Ejected from the targets, I haven't seen that phenomenon before, especially when hit in the kill zone.


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## RJseniorpro (Jan 12, 2009)

The targets seemed to be better all around. I believe they have always used brown foam as a standard and painted the animals. The larger shafts are leaving more of a impact on the animals. We have and will always have the issue of the animals leaning over, it is an etiquette thing on each group to stand the target up for the next group to shoot, two score keepers, two callers and stand the target up. This was a great shoot and the ASA staff is really getting it down on setting the ranges very challenging. Four or five long and challenging targets, four or five you can nail the 12 and about ten in the mid range range,,,good set ups. May we all stay positive and enjoy this great sport....


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

The paint and foam isn't just an ASA thing, the new cores and mids our club got are doing the same thing so delta mckenzie is sending those targets everywhere. At least the ASA gets replacement targets that might see the "engineer's improvements" every shoot while the clubs are stuck with junk that they had to pay for. Always good having a one day old javalina mid with less than 250 shots into it look as bad as the 3 year old one that it just replaced.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Supermag1 said:


> Always good having a one day old javalina mid with less than 250 shots into it look as bad as the 3 year old one that it just replaced.


OUCH! Clubs won't stay in business long like that.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Garceau said:


> The engineers should have been there Sunday to see how bad the targets are with only 500 shots in them (high estimate)
> 
> They have a long way to go.
> 
> ...


All the black/dark targets had brown inserts bye the end of yesterday.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Bo Bob said:


> OUCH! Clubs won't stay in business long like that.


easy to fix that problem.... make the arrow size no larger then 23/64 - 9.33 then.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> another observation that I had: ASA needs more than one practice range for the mount of shooters in Alabama. They were beyond chewed up too! Saw a few arrows Ejected from the targets, I haven't seen that phenomenon before, especially when hit in the kill zone.


You are correct guy on the stake next to me had an arrow bounce out of the target.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> easy to fix that problem.... make the arrow size no larger then 23/64 - 9.33 then.


You know that won't happen, the arrow companies would pull support.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> You know that won't happen, the arrow companies would pull support.


Well, probably not. but we are the only country that shoots them.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> easy to fix that problem.... make the arrow size no larger then 23/64 - 9.33 then.


I would counter with.... Make the targets out of the older material and have them last 3 years and not one shoot. The same size arrows plugged the the 3 year old javy that the guy is talking about and apparently it didn't make it through one shoot now.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Bo Bob said:


> OUCH! Clubs won't stay in business long like that.


Our club bought a range in Fla and have had 3 shoots with a 55-60 average attendance. The cores are already showing massive wear.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm looking at buying a range but may wait until next year so any problems can get ironed out hopefully.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Bo Bob said:


> OUCH! Clubs won't stay in business long like that.





bhtr3d said:


> easy to fix that problem.... make the arrow size no larger then 23/64 - 9.33 then.


 Mckenzie chooses to change their product so all orgs and clubs should institute whole sale rule changes so McKenzies product will come close to performing like their old product? Makes zero sense. More understandable if McKenzie owns the ASA. But then again Easton, Hoyt, Gold Tip, Carbon Express and many other arrow manufacturers also have a vested interest in the ASA 3D game.

A simpler and some might say better idea is to insist McKenzie put a product on the stake that performs up to OUR expectations or we (me, you, archery clubs, ASA and NFAA) start buying Rhineharts, R&W or other targets.............


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## victor001 (Jan 31, 2011)

I had concern when Delta put thier name on the product . Everyone know's the quality of Delta . Keep hopeing for an improvement , that will never come . IBO is looking smarter all the time . JMO


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Black targets made up of medium brown color foam covered in black paint - a single arrow impact removes the black paint exposing a perfectly round light brown circle. A brand new black McKenzie target is immediately marked by the very first arrow. The result is that after just a handful of decent shots the black targets _immediately_ have light brown aiming points in the kill zone. After a few dozen decent shots there is a large light brown blob in and/or around the 10/12 rings. If you buy a brand new black McKenzie target you will quickly have easy aiming points in the 10 ring. Essentially black targets are no longer difficult targets to find aiming points on and in fact you will quickly be able to find the 10 ring after a dozen good archers have shot the target. A brand new Mckenzie target that is made from brown foam coated with black paint quickly appears to be heavily used.

- The Black Buck shot by the K45 division on the range made from the Simms range had the off side completely destroyed. Arrows did completely and quickly sail through the 10 ring on Sunday. 

- I did notice significantly different foams in some of the animals. One foam seemed to be a softer more rubbery foam that arrows did not much penetrate and the arrows were very easily removed. The arrow holes closed up very smoothly in this foam.

- There were MANY new targets that had the "old" scoring ring cores. This is a non-issue for me as we all shot the same target. Using up the old inventory makes sense to me.

- I didn't see any real problems with the plastic legs. The targets seemed to stay upright as well as they had in previous years. :thumbs_up

- The targets did seem to be much better assembled (fit together tighter) than they did at last years Classic. :thumbs_up

- New black targets quickly marked up and appearing to be heavily worn even if the are not. These targets quickly turn into something different than what was purchased. :thumbs_down


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

did they make the scoring rings smaller?


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## ELPalmer (Mar 2, 2013)

I thought the targets were worse than Gainesville on Hunter. On the 2nd half known, we had a 20 min delay of game because one of the new targets with the plastic legs broke and it look them that long to repair. On the 1st 1/2 , the unknown half, a couple 12's were given by default because the impact was in the ball park but the insert was so chewed up there was no way to really tell for sure, so the benefit of the doubt was given.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Easton owns mckenzie now and has for atleast 1-2 years.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

bhtr3d said:


> easy to fix that problem.... make the arrow size no larger then 23/64 - 9.33 then.


Nice theory but completely incorrect. It was an indoor shoot so I got to see most peoples setups and there were only three of us shooting arrows bigger than that, another guy and I had X-Ringers (24/64) and another guy had Full Bores (27/64), there were at most a dozen guys shooting Fatboys (23/64) with the vast majority shooting regular hunting arrows (ICS Hunters, Axis, a few Blue Streaks, GT 55/75s, etc).


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## ELPalmer (Mar 2, 2013)

i disagree, not to say there wasnt some guys shooting hunting dia shafts, Series 22 seemed to be about the skinniest I was seeing on a regular basis. I think the 24/64-25/64 should be the maximum. heses super fatties are ridiculous, theyre bigger than a 416 rigby elephant bullet for cryin out loud.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

ELPalmer said:


> i disagree, not to say there wasnt some guys shooting hunting dia shafts, Series 22 seemed to be about the skinniest I was seeing on a regular basis. I think the 24/64-25/64 should be the maximum. heses super fatties are ridiculous, theyre bigger than a 416 rigby elephant bullet for cryin out loud.


I was talking about a mckenzie target at a different shoot that I'd posted about earlier in the thread (posted about it to say the clubs are getting the same junk as the tour). I'm sure most of the arrows at the pro-am were the larger diameter shafts.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I know not everyone agrees but IBO did it right by dumping that delta crap and going with rhinehart.


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## CRISSMAN6903 (Mar 11, 2011)

I had a a almost pass thru on the 20yd coyote. The 12 ring was demolished and I lost my vanes in the foam.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> A simpler and some might say better idea is to insist McKenzie put a product on the stake that performs up to OUR expectations or we (me, you, archery clubs, ASA and NFAA) start buying Rhineharts, R&W or other targets.............



I agree. I don't see how they expect to keep their customer base with the local clubs. What local club can afford to even make enough to buy 2-3 inserts per shoot. I would think you'll see more clubs going to other targets that they can get a season+ of shooting out of. 



schmel_me said:


> I know not everyone agrees but IBO did it right by dumping that delta crap and going with rhinehart.


I would agree. If they McKenzie was afraid of losing the ASA I'd bet you see a change real fast.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

schmel_me said:


> I know not everyone agrees but IBO did it right by dumping that delta crap and going with rhinehart.


I'm sure you think ibo dumped mckenzie/delta but they didn't. Mckenzie/delta was bought a few years ago by a certain arrow company. The company no longer wanted to provide ibo free targets. 

Nothing says local clubs can't use reinhart targets. Our club has 5 we rotate into tournaments. But we have a bigger draw with all mckenzies. Also I've seen one of our reinharts get shot out in less then 2 tournaments.


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## ELPalmer (Mar 2, 2013)

funny, these super fatties were initially intended for indoor spots, take Gold Tip For Example " X Cutter", 30X, XXX, refering to the spyder in the bulls eye. 

It is ASA's fault for not doing the right thing earlier on and doing a Barney Fife and nipping it at the bud. Why stop at 27/64,..... a 29/64 will get you in the .458 win mag dia range.


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> You are correct guy on the stake next to me had an arrow bounce out of the target.


I might have been that guy. I had my arrow rejected from the 10 ring in the Corsican ram on the practice range on Friday.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

gaberichter said:


> I might have been that guy. I had my arrow rejected from the 10 ring in the Corsican ram on the practice range on Friday.


That sucks, but this was a friend of mine. On the d range Sunday morning.


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## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Targets were trashed by the time we " bow novice " shot our second round on saturday. I watched many targets come in off the ranges and my fiance could even put her entire foot in one target. Large shaft arrows do not penetrate near as far as a smaller diameter arrow, causing less damage to the core. Another thing they need to think about for clubs is that most clubs dont have a speed limit. I practice for hunting season on a course with my bloodsport 1's 505gr 70# Hoyt Element and just destroy targets. If this target company doesnt want their targets so trashed by whatever sized arrows, how about they give us specific arrows to shoot for free! JMHO


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

The foam is just a matter of formula you want to use. The more dense the foam the harder to pull a arrow and a longer curing time in the mold. 

Funny when I have used a repair kit on the old mid section targets they would last longer then when the target was made at the factory. 

I thought the new core replacement targets came out they where a good bang for the buck.. But after reading the post on the new targets I doubt I will shoot any ASA events this year. 

Can't see driving 5 hours, hotel room, meals and pay to shoot crappy targets. 

The ASA and Delt should put a better product out there to shoot. I'd glady pay more on the entry fee to shoot a quality target. 

Does this make sense. I paid good money for fuel, hotel room,meals and took time off from work. Man O' Man glad the ASA and Delta saved me 30.00 dollars by having low quality targets to shoot at. Thanks for looking out for us.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I could understand a target manufacturer not wanting their targets to last any longer than is absolutely required to satisfy the customer.......... Rhinehart has put McKenzie on the spot with targets that last AND are easy to pull. I wonder if Delta has ever purchased Rhineharts for in house covert comparison testing. Nah, competitors would NEVER evaluate their opponents product, material or bow/arrow setup!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

This is not looking good. Highly concerned about my range now. I wish they would give us a choice of the old XT targets, but they are pushing the Pinncale plastic legs down our throats.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> This is not looking good. Highly concerned about my range now. I wish they would give us a choice of the old XT targets, but they are pushing the Pinncale plastic legs down our throats.


We bought a range in fl for our club, after 3 shoots they are horrible.


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## gryfox00 (Jun 11, 2007)

I think I'd rather purchase used XT's and purchase inserts for them instead of these Pinnacles


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

gryfox00 said:


> I think I'd rather purchase used XT's and purchase inserts for them instead of these Pinnacles


I just ordered new XT mid/cores, and they sent the Pinnacles. They don't make the regular XT mid anymore. Really not happy atm.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

So people just need to go away from the McKenzies all together. Hey, they did this to themselves.
Local ranges can move to another targert, people need to *show* the ASA that they won't put up with the "crap" and stop going to ASA shoots until they provide bettter targets. Not like people are forced to go.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I guess I could replace them one by one as they wear out. :/


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

One thing that bothers me is that Mckenzie engineers where at the ASA shoot in AL checking on the targets and damage.. Don't they have a R&D department that test the foam extensively until descruction and find a solution to a problem before it gets out the door not do research on shooters at tournaments...


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

cenochs said:


> One thing that bothers me is that Mckenzie engineers where at the ASA shoot in AL checking on the targets and damage.. Don't they have a R&D department that test the foam extensively until descruction and find a solution to a problem before it gets out the door not do research on shooters at tournaments...


Definitely agree!!! Shouldn't have to come to a shoot to look at the damage. Seems like they keep getting worse instead of better. I've only been on the tour for about 5 years and they seemed better back then.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Stick with the old design until you get the kinks out of the new one. lain:

Ridiculous.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> I just ordered new XT mid/cores, and they sent the Pinnacles. They don't make the regular XT mid anymore. Really not happy atm.


Your kidding me they don't make the old core plugs for the xt targets.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

EROS said:


> Your kidding me they don't make the old core plugs for the xt targets.


No they still make the xt cores. The pinnacle series still uses them.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Sagecreek, you ordered XT mids and got the Pinnacle mids? So now you've now got targets with a plastic front leg and foam rear??? THAT SUCKS!!!!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Supermag1 said:


> Sagecreek, you ordered XT mids and got the Pinnacle mids? So now you've now got targets with a plastic front leg and foam rear??? THAT SUCKS!!!!!!


Yep, that's what I got. I ordered the old part number, but they keep the old XT mid part number for the Pinnacle series replacement.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

sagecreek said:


> Yep, that's what I got. I ordered the old part number, but they keep the old XT mid part number for the Pinnacle series replacement.


Our club got lucky then. We only needed replacement cores for the deer, the mids we got were for smaller stuff that doesn't have the plastic legs.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am calling BS, They are doing this on purpose to sell more targets. We all know that there is a foam out there that is better and they are choosing not to use it which sucks that our market is so small that they can get away with what they are doing.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

There is a fine line between having foam that is good enough to satisfy customers and yet does not last one arrow more.......... 

No excuses for having black targets that immediately turn light brown where the first arrow is removed.

The bad thing is that it appears the ASA is letting Delta experiment on ASA members! I for one don't appreciate it.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> There is a fine line between having foam that is good enough to satisfy customers and yet does not last one arrow more..........
> 
> No excuses for having black targets that immediately turn light brown where the first arrow is removed.
> 
> The bad thing is that it appears the ASA is letting Delta experiment on ASA members! I for one don't appreciate it.


Agreed!


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