# THE Money Circuit?



## dspell20 (Nov 23, 2004)

I think you may be onto something. People are willing to pay entry fees very similar to what your proposing for a lot less pay back. There is a huge shooting culture out there you just have to tap there interest. IBO and ASA have the 3d world locked up in the NE and the SE. I do think your idea is on the right track though and as far as the money payouts if the shooters shot for the money there would not be any shooting because very few archers can make a living off of it. On the other hand it is fun and if you can have a better chance of winning $$$$ while having fun, making new friends, and shooing archery I am all for it. Good Luck abd keep us updated. Take in consideration a huge turnout. Look at the numbers that the ASA and IBO bring in at a national shoot.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for your input. I give credit for the large turnouts at IBO and ASA event to the fact that both Organizations have worked very hard for many years. I don't think that creating this curcuit is the be all end all of THE. I do however think that it might be an area that so far I have just plan missed.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

ttt


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## frost_reaver (Aug 17, 2006)

The problem I see you running into is the fact that very few shooters who consider themselves good enough to win this sort of thing seem to congregate at one shoot. Many of them (in the Kansas City area at ay rate) go to local club shoots instead of attending Deerman shoots for a couple of reasons. Most local club shoots are 40 target ranges that charge about 10-15 bucks for entry fees. Deerman shoots are 30 targets for 15 bucks. They choose to shoot more targets for less or the same amount of money. While it may seem petty and minisule to some, the vast majority of shooters I have talked to consider it a pretty big deal. 

The other reason people don't go to Deerman shoots around here is, quite frankly, the scoring system. While I am aware of the point to it and I'm sure you've heard the same complaint many times, the current scoring system is just not designed to encourage new shooters to continue the sport. Most of us shoot for fun, but in the back of everybody's mind there is a voice that tells them they have a chance (however slight) of winning. That's the real hook to getting people to give it a shot. Now it almost always takes an amount of work for most of us to get our children and/or spouses to get involved at all. New shooters need constant encouragement and they need to see results and improvements to keep them motivated. For new shooters, 3-D can be incredibly daunting. Hell, it's hard enough just to learn how to hit a spot at a known distance with a bow. Add the lack of visible scoring rings and unknown yardage into that and it enough to make a lot of people gun shy to try it at all. Now add even more to it. Tell the new shooter that they finally managed to hit that thing out there in the woods but there shoot wasn't good enough so we add a negative to your score. That's about the last time the girlfriend and the boy would accompany me on my little outings.

3-D is dying out around here, slowly but surely. Less shooters show up every year. Less shooters means less clubs and less tournaments. The reality is that the Deerman shoots started on what may or may not be the tail end of 3-D but is at the very least a downslope. I think the real trick to boosting numbers is going be making Deerman shoots financially comparable with other tourns, revamping the scoring system to make it more hospitable to new shooters and finding ways to boost the overall numbers of participants in general. Catering to this very specific group of shooters will really do little to nothing to boost numbers IMHO. I think that the only effect it will have is to get a few shooters who already come to Deerman shoots to switch classes. I doubt that they will keep shooting those classes though. Most of them will probably give it a shot once or twice and then decide it's a waste of money to pay more for a tourn they still can't win and go back to the class they came from.

Sorry for the long post but that's my 2 cents on the matter.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Money Payout Event*

By and large you will find that the vast majority of shooters just want to shoot, have fun. It isn't fun to shoot against those... How do I want to say this? The vast majority of shooters already know they can't win? Here, in Illinois, we can't even get a 1/4 of our NFAA members to shoot just one event. I think a couple of years ago we had 91 of 420 members show for our highest drawing event, the Indoor State Championship. But then, we have clubs in my area that put on a regular 3D trophy shoot and draw 200+ shooters for the weekend. There's no pressure at local 3D events. You are shooting with friends or family members shooting together. You go to a bigger event, something what you are thinking of, and shooters are paired with somebody they don't know. 
I think here is a problem. State to state, a lot of clubs don't know what big organizations member clubs have for participation. At our 3D IAA State Championships we have maybe 30 IAA members showup and the rest were the clubs regular contestants. Our ASA Qualifier held last year drew 36 (?) contestants. I have a idea IBO clubs are in the same fix. I believe the largest event in the upper part of Illinois is the Midwest Archery Championship, over 350 contestants I think. In the lower part of Illinios is the biggest, the ASA Pro/Am. 
If you could make a event such as you describe work, more power to you. I really hope you or someone would break the ice and start a contest where all shooters would enjoy competing.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Fisrt, Thank you for your two cents it is much more important to me than you might think. I understand that we have run into this problem of the 30 vs. more targets in Kansas. However, I do have a solution for that. All the ranges need to do is go ahead and put up the normal number they would use another time. Then the rest of the targets after thirty can be used in several different manners. Fun shoot, extra event, count them for who wins that day, but for shooter of the year reasons THE only counts the first 30. So, no I don't think this is petty, it is what people are used to there in Kansas.
The scoring system can be discouraging to some, but believe it or not that is usually not the responce we get. I am sorry for those that it bothers. We are consisantly growing. However, we have had a large fall off there in Kansas. I think that this is due to many different reasons some of which I personally created, with my attitude with some shooter a few years back. Now we have a new range that just got involved that is very excited to host our events. I don't want ranges to quit using the other systems, we just want ranges to add us into the mix for a different change every now and then.
I must say that has been my exact opinion for the last few years. I mean that it won't boost attendance, however a few shooters feel other wise. So I am just considering giving it a try. I also agree that in many areas 3D is struggling. However, it is not dead, and I still believe it can and will grow again.
Now what do you have in mind in revamping the system for new shooters. Would droping the -5 for the novice level and just counting it as a zero be a step in the right direction for you? I am not poking fun I am serious. We have a novice level that is a max. of 30 yards, we are creating intermediate classes this year that separates shooter by score. We drop the yardages in the youth claases by ten yards each age bracket daown to Cubs. Do you think that shooters are not able to shoot a 300 score on our system from 30 yards? With the use of muti-pins.
If ranges do not want to set targets Trashy as we have been called then don't and I won't say a word. Just get ready when and if you come to world cause you won't be perpared for what you are walking into.
See for those that are coming and returning to our events love it just the way it is. We are not on a down slope even though 3D has been ever since we have existed. We continue to grow despite 3D's struggle. We are in the process of getting started in the heart of 3D on the East coast. Those dates will be coming in March. They hosted a practice run out there setup like we like it and the responce was extreme. The fall off in 3D is caused from the drop in interest from the average Joe hunter. And we believe we have the system that can and will eventually bring those shooters back. And, the ones like them that have never been invoved into the sport. As for the IBO and ASA style evetns well they will always have the interest of those that don't like us. That si not a bad thing it is good cause there is room for all to play. I like shooting the otehr s system as well, now as for me getting to do that not much in the past seven oreight years, but only because I am chasing this dream of THE. Do not say you are sorry for your response if it is from your heart and mind then it needs to be said. And I started this thread for that reason to hear what the public thinks about THE exploring a Money circuit.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

To Sonny and others like him, Thank you for this is what we here the most of and we believe that you are the type of shooter that is the Heart of 3D archery and it's future. We catter to the shooter that is the Average Joe. Their are a lot more of you than Money shooters. If you will sonny please check out our 06 rulebook at www.the3d.org. We should have the 07 seven revisements up in the next few days. I think you will see that we are all about shooters like you. See at this point we do not have a money class or pro-divisions. We would love to come to your home state as well. All we need is one range to be willing to host.


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

HEY, DEERMAN!!! I like the sounds of your ideas. Even though I am a hill humper and most likely wont be able to attend any of your events, if I lived back there I would try to hit em all. There are not very many opportunities for amateurs (advanced or otherwise) to pick up a check if they shoot good. I think you have some great ideas and don't be afraid to try em. Just be sure not to schedule your shoots in the middle of someone elses and you should see good attendance or better in most areas. I wish you most of luck getting this started. And if you ever bring one to the far left, let us know so I can make plans, cuz it sounds like a blast.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Carl, Thank you as well. If you are interested and think you might know of a range that would be interested then go to our website once again www.the3d.org and go to the officers page. I have a State director their in Oregon. He just moved there and was a big part of THE when he was here in Oklahoma. He would love to work with you and get something setup. His name is Bob Becker.


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

Cool. I may do some lookin around and see what available. Would love to have something like that around here. In fact we scored that way at a shoot or 2 last year, just between me and the guys. Made for some neat scoring. Dropping 5 makes it way tougher to make up points when you are tryin too hard and a dollars on the line, lol.
Carl


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## frost_reaver (Aug 17, 2006)

I think removing the negatives for novices would be a real step in the right direction. It does get rid of the negative for "bad" shots, it doesn't provide any reward for acutally hitting the target. But what qualifies you as a novice and what are the stipulations for moving up? I've been discussing this with the girlfriend and she is concerned about being the only shooter in her class in local tourns and being forced to move up because of "wins" just to get to the bigger tourns and be severely outmatched. 

As far as the "average joe hunter", I really don't think they lost interest in competing as so much as they have been priced out of competition by the manufacturers. Back in 3-d's "heyday", you could buy a brand new top of the line bow for under 300 bucks and a dozen top quality arrows ready to shoot for 50 bucks. As we all know, that is no longer the case. I really think most people quit simply because 3-D can be extremely expensive. Now I know you can't do anything about that, but I really don't think your growth is from new shooters or old shooters coming back. I tend to think it is more from those of us in the 3-D game that are getting kinda bored with the old format and looking for something fresh and different. It's gonna be hard to find a balance with the scoring system issues for beginners and keeping the old shooters who are shooting the Deerman for an admittedly refreshing change of pace. 

I like your rule system in general, and I enjoy shooting a new format once in a while. Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you once again for your input. The stipulations for moving up depends on your scoring capibilites not on wins. Therefore the novice classes have several shooters in them and they are all comparable to each other. Then when you do have to move to intermediate the same is true. The bracket work like this. You remain novice until you can shoot a 300 or higher. Defind as 299 and below. Then you do not change stakes as you become intermediate. This class run from 300-359. Once you can score 360 or above at that time then you will back up to the next stake adding ten yards to your max. becoming an advanced competitor. The intermediate factor is new this year. But, we have been trying to figure out how to deal with this issue for sometime now. We hope that this works. It may need some tweeks over the next few years, but we really feel it will help the average joe.
The only problems we see at this time is sand baggers but, we have not found away to fix cheaters fact is doesn't matter what you do a cheater is just that and you can't make a rule to fix it. Kind of like the Gun control issue, you can't take guns away by a law and expext a criminal to obey it! They are allready breaking the law another law is not the answer. The same applies here.
And Wolfman hope to here from you soon. If you will send me a personal e-mail I will send you a copy of this years range app. [email protected]


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Ok guys I can see that many of you are reading this thread, but I need at least a Thumbs up or down from you. We are trying to see if their is enough interest in this to warrant spending th time and money to promote it. I am no longer the only one you have to convince we have created a Advisory Board and Heather and I won't do things if the board is not convinced as well. Just post yes or no please. I don't care is a good enough responce as well. See, I hear all the opposeing views to doing this everyday. If you are for this I need to hear it. This is not a voting game, but if there is not much interest then I wll just let this idea die. Pro's and Semi-Pro's I would like your input as well. This is your chance to help us create another venue for you guys to make money. It will take your influence to convince Sponsors to put up extra purse money and Con. $.


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## THEMan1976 (Oct 23, 2004)

*Yeah!*

While I know about deermans and everything your about, I'll put in my 2 cents. Smokey Valley in KS has the No Bull shoot that is packed, even in rain and mud up to our ears, because of the payout. Bows, prizes, and the green. I think you are on to something, although maybe lessen the price for entry. Remember the more the entry the more the payout. Lets get them to shoot first then see how to handle it from there. Great idea Jimmy! With the deerman scoring system it even levels the playing field for some amatures to compete. Hope it works out for you.:thumbs_up


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## buyou boy (Jun 21, 2005)

Hey guys all the input on this will really help us determine if the Money Cir. is worth the effort. I hope that we can here from as many of you as possible. I feel that this could be a great addition to THE personally. But we do need to hear if from the shooters be it pro or average joe.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I wish you luck in your endeavors. I do have some skeptical points.

I just moved out of the SE usa, back to the midwest where I'm from. The archery cultures are very different, midwest is NFAA oriented, SE is IBO/ASA. Down south, you would be hard pressed to find any tournament that was not a payout type shoot even for novices. What I saw was that a lot of casual shooters wouldnt show up to shoots consistently. People get much more jealous over money than for some trinket and bragging rights, and those without a chance of winning will not do it necessarily for the fun, for example, 15 dollars for 20 targets. I've seen average shooters get back in their car and leave if they found out SOTY "DOE" was shooting in their class that day. That meant that local tournaments were very hit or miss as far as attendance goes, and for clubs that need the revenues, that hurts. However, it does ease the financial burden on clubs that are hit or miss attendance wise because of the increasing cost of medals and plaques. Here in the midwest, payout shoots are far less common, and in certain areas, clubs have marvelous, consistent attendance at local shoots by casual shooters. What I gather from this observation is that payout shoots tend to discourage the casual shooter, but entice the "already advanced" shooter or the Type A highly competitive personality type beginner. Sometimes, the quantity of casual shooters that show up consistently to pay entry fees and buy a hotdog and coke is what allows a club to stay in the black, allowing those club members lower dues and a higher quality range.

If your area already has a high number of quality, competitive shooters it may very well be a good deal for the circuit that many might enjoy. I would try to look at all the organizations in the areas you plan to host for quantity of shooters and posted scores for how competitive they are nationally, and that might give an idea if its viable.

One thing that disappoints me in many hobbies is when too many organizations that cover the same sport all compete for the same shooters, to a point where everybody loses attendance and interest. Like places that dont synchronize their weekend shoots, so that everyone is having a shoot on the same day, and everyone's attendance is down, so the payout is measly, and some people never come back.

Good luck!


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you, theman1976 for your input. We need to hear from more of you especially those that would be interested because of this that have never shot THE before. Now my question here is how to lower the entry fees. Let me give you the factors that have to be plugged in to the equasion. First the Range must make a minium profit of $8-$10 or they are going in the hole, THE must make a minium $3-$5 to be able to afford to promote the events and put on the World Championship. Paperwork, fliers, scorecards, etc. don't come cheap when you start doing the math. So, while I am open to suggestion, and don't care what the numbers are. It must be a win for all involved the range, the shooter who so far tells me a 75% or more paybck is all that is acceptable to draw shooters, and YES THE must be included in the win situation. Not trying to be arguementitive, just showing the numbers then if you can show us acceptable numbers post them here and we will let teh public opinion tell us if you are correct.

This is exactly why we are not pushing to set this up this year. We want to get everyones opinions and discuss them openly. If promoted propoerly "THE TOP PRO Circuit" THE TPC? could become the most respected Pro Circuit in 3D archery, simply due to the fact the shooter had to earn his or her position as Pro in every case not just be sponsored by some one willing to pay his or her entry fees. Sorry, that was not a personal attack on any existing PRO. It was only meant to be a statement to how our proposed circuit would work. The fact is their are countless amataur's out there dieing to get sponsored. That are good enough to compete at the semi-pro and pro levels. But the sponsors have there shooting staffs full and are not looking to sponsor anyone new that is a rising star. In a circuit like this the sponsors would be forced to look at who's rising to the TOP hits the name "THE TOP PRO". If existing amatur's are the ones to start competing in this type of event and rise to the top, then existing PRO's try to dis-credit them by saying they are not PRO's we are. Then they would have to come over enter the Changler Series for a year and see if they can rise to The Top. Either way only the cream of the crop would be THE TOP PRO's in the World. If there are any potential sponsors looking at this and think they might be interested just send us a personal e-amil. We will keep you informed on our development and your potential involment silent until a contract of sponsorship is reached .


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I had some more thoughts....mostly on the Deerman format (which sounds fantastic, never shot it...yet)

Back in the eighties, 3 Ds were often a lot of fun with extreme ranges, obscured targets and other challenges. Eventually people started complaining about not having a 70 yard pin, or going through too many arrows (i didnt mind but I dont blame those that did). What I have suggested sometimes is at the the end of the 3-d season, when some clubs host a bowhunter only format, is very similar to Deemans format; 
1.obscured kill sucker shots where if you attempt the shot, you may or may not get the point, but if you pass it up you get full credit. 
2. Shots out of blinds, twisting around foot placement, shots from wobbly boards or trampolines, 
3. Bedded buck behind standing doe, shoot the bucks kill zone, negative points hit the doe
4. negative point non kill zone.

back to work...


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## fusiontrix (Dec 29, 2006)

Money talks. I spend more time going to shoots each year that pay out than those that don't, even if the money shoots are farther away at a chance to break even or maybe make a little on the top. With gas prices and the cost of entry fees at some places, money is the only reason why alot of people are showing up now.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

To Archerm3: Your first reply. I agree with you 100% this is exactly why I do not see us developing money payout for our amatur classes we do belt buckles at this time and will continue doing that untill the Shooter's get tired of it or we find a better award. At this time the buckles are two fold. They produce a very nice award for the shooter and they act as advertisement for THE.
To your second reply.
# 1 Do you get full credit for passing the shot up in the wild? I personally think that anytime we setup a sucker looking shot that there sould be away that the shooter can make the shot easier by breaking 3D form and becoming the hunter. Thou, I have made the mistake before in the past of not doing this it is something that I try to make sure of these days. I have had it sugestted more than once that the shooter should recieve a positive 5 for passing on a shot. This would not allow a shooter to win tournaments by passing several shots, but if he passed on the right ones it just might. This would give at least half credit for a kill when the shooter has the scence not "let it walk." The problem is so far the arguement for this has not been strong enough to warrant the change.
#2 We have done all these except the wobbly board thing, it has been suggested many times, but I have not yet found a really save way to accomplish it. If you can tell me the ways you have seen it done and I can make it work safely and cost effectivlly, then it will appear at this years World event. Man you should have seen the stink that I caused three years a go now when I re-introduced the turn around backwards shot. However, it has become a very comin shot at many of our host shoot today.
#3 We have done and like it.
#4 That is exactly what we are all about. A wounded deer in the wild is not a positive experience for anyone, and if it is then I wish they would quit hunting cause it is people like that. That will cost us our hunting rights.

To Fusiontrix: Thank you for your response and input. Do you like the proposed prices, % payout, and pay scale listed above? And if not do you have a better suggestion? Kepping in mind the win win factors You the shooter, the range, and THE.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*MOney*

Not neccessarily money. Sponsorship and prizes. Not just in pro class.

If you want to create interest get the sponsor help. Certian percentage of entry fees but you have to get a good sponsor.

You can give awards with money pay outs.

Today you have to run against the ASA and IBO. Your best thing you have going for Deermans is there is no midwest ASA and IBO shoots. PLus Deermans is not like any 3d shoot out there. I honestly think that attracts the avergae joe archer, hunter.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you for your response. I agree and am hoping for just that a sponsorship backing, however I am not affraid to start this without it, if the public shows interest. Dan, I can not thank you enough for all your THE support. You are a perfect example of someone who sees the big picture of there being room for all the formats.

I have a question to those that are not willing to shoot this event and this may need to be it's own thread at some point. If, when these shooters earn the right to be called "THE Top Pro's" would there be any interest in septatorship. Like a gate being charged to get into the pro events. A gallery pricing to walk with and watch a designates group no more than five people per group. (No bows allowed just stay out of the way and watch) And the posibility a price only one person, per group, per shoot to shoot with the pro's. This is just brain stroming so, please no one flip a lid. Just give us your two cents everyone?


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## THEMan1976 (Oct 23, 2004)

Jimmy,

I think this can work out great, if only you leave money out of the planning. Yes have a payout shoot. Yes have a sponsership. Yes have a "pro" class. But make it affordable. I have met so many would be 3-d regulars that pass it up because the next step costs too much. A guy will spend 10 to 15 bucks a month every month on his local range, but when they up the fee to 30 and only shoot 30 shots that person stays home. I love what you are about and your originality, but volume of shooters will payout more for the THE and the local range than the 5 willing to pay 80 to shoot 30 targets. It just seems like its too much about the money. I personally would rather pay $30 and shoot 30 shots and have a chance at 500 or more bucks than pay 80 and have a chance at $150. 
I also love the idea of the +5 points for a passed shot. I know many a shot I could have passed and done better with this rule. It lets the shooter use their comfort zone a little more efficiently. It is about the hunting scenarios, and that is a positive to know when to pass that shot up. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you for your reply, I will keep this in mind as we go here.

What do the rest of you think? I need to here from you if you're interested in this being developed. I am open to hereing your opinions, that is why the planning dates are so far away. At this point this is an open book, just an idea. I have behind the scenes people I have asked to help create this. I will be discussing all your ideas with these trusted folks, as we go. So, spit it out if you have input here. I don't want to recreate what already exist. I want to do something new and different.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

ttt


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Ok, 398 hits 25 replies and several of each are mine. I am not seeing much of a response to this idea. I will let this thread die at this point unless one you the shooters show more interest. The idea will still be researched, but we will have to see a lot more interest than this or it will never happen. To all of those who have responded thank you. I will respond to any one who responds to this thread. If not then to all of you good luck with all your archery shoots here in 2007. Hope to see you at some THE events as well.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Takes time Jimmy*

You have to get bigtime sponsor to get the pros.

You get the money and they will come shoot.

I think for you right now to stay amatuer or maybe a pro class with payback for those that want to shoot. Im thinking $100.00 entry fee with 70% payback.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Dan. What do you think, available at world only? Or what?


Are there any interested Pros reading any of this that would like to respond?


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## wilsonracing400 (Apr 2, 2006)

*money circut*

i deffently think u will find several shooters will want to give it a try as long as there is enough in it for them to shoot in it. u know i will stand behind it and help it along.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you for the response. I agree numbers is what will make it tick. That is why we are researching so far in advance. I hope that this is something the public wants to be developed, other wise it may die before it ever gets going. Unlike the other formats of THE this must began working from Day one or the shooters who give it a try will quit because the payout is not enough. I must see a public response, before we go down this road much more. I will be asking the questions, out there at the THE shoots not just relieing on this thread, however I really thought their would be more response. Everyone here sure has had opinions about THE in the past. Most of which were commits from upper 10% class of shooters which is who this is being developed for. I personlly am shocked at how little is being said. I don't know how to take it either they are not interested, or they like the idea so well they have no grips. Not including anyone who has responded it seems most only like to respond if they have a complaint. If I am wrong then show me let me know how you feel good or bad about this idea.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I would try it at worlds*



THEDeerman said:


> Thanks Dan. What do you think, available at world only? Or what?
> 
> 
> Are there any interested Pros reading any of this that would like to respond?



Ill get the word out to the pros. 
DB


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

I am not appossed to doing this at all. Tell the pros they need not qualify this year we will work that out next year, or sometime in the future. Only available classes, Open, Hunter, Sinle-pin, Womens, and Traditional class rules are as in current THE rulebook. I will desuss the entry fees with you in private then we will post them here.


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## wilsonracing400 (Apr 2, 2006)

are you planning on having a fingers class also for this new pro circuit when we get it up and going.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

You may want to look at how ATA amature trap asc. or the NSSA national skeet shooting asc. or NSCA national sporting clays asc. They do pay outs similar there is also a optional purse class that a shooter can play this is on top of any entry fees payed and 100% of the money is returned to the class that they participate in. and is completly voluntary if you do not want to gamble on yur scores you can elect not to play the purse.
Just thinking out loud.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

*My 2 cents*

I've watched and read this post for a time now. My only thought is this. Why does there need to be a seperate money class at all. Why can't you just pay cash prizes in the classes you have now. $5-$10 from each shooters entry fee goes to the payout. That would be the easiest way to settle the whole thing. I believe that would make the majority happy. I still shot T.H.E. some but if I have a choice on a weekend between paying $15 at a shoot thats putting $5 back for each shooter and paying $20-$25 to shoot at a T.H.E. event giving away a $5 trophy or plague. With the entry fees being charged by T.H.E. you could give away the $2.50-$5.00 plague and give a payout too. Some may not agree, but thats just how I see things. Maybe someone can enlighten me on why this would'nt work:zip:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

I think this idea has alot of merit. 
Take it to the areas where the IBO and ASA is largely under or unrepresented and I think that would be the quickest way to success. You have to admit that the PBR is onto to a winning recipe. Following their model actually sounds pretty good. It also takes care of the problem of having to be good enough to shoot 'pro'. 
I think it would be a good idea to keep the number of classes down. Make sure the basics are covered (Open, Bowhunter, Fingers ,men and womens for each class). Let the cream rise to the top if they want to compete in top pro.


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*I'll have to give my .02*

Several years ago when the Deermans started the "T.H.E" shoots west of Ada several friends and I went. Well, we was shooting the ASA and IBO nationally. My biggest complaint and reason for not returning was the idea of True Hunting Ethics? 90 % of the shots had the "kill" area blocked where you was having to thread a needle to hit in the lungs:mg: . This was agianst what I thought was the True Hunting Ethics which I would never risk shooting at a animal where the vitals obstructed. I got in a heated debate with a range owner about that. Has this changed? If you are wanting to attract a larger crowd and the "pros" you will need to rethink the methods of target setup and layout. Also, when the ASA had Penzoil(spelling) the payouts was huge even at the sectional level. If you could get a sponcer like that it would greatly increase you success at getting national recognation.Other than these small problems it sounds like a great idea.Just my .02 and thoughts.


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## keyman (Mar 22, 2003)

asa3dpro said:


> Several years ago when the Deermans started the "T.H.E" shoots west of Ada several friends and I went. Well, we was shooting the ASA and IBO nationally. My biggest complaint and reason for not returning was the idea of True Hunting Ethics? 90 % of the shots had the "kill" area blocked where you was having to thread a needle to hit in the lungs:mg: . This was agianst what I thought was the True Hunting Ethics which I would never risk shooting at a animal where the vitals obstructed. I got in a heated debate with a range owner about that. Has this changed? If you are wanting to attract a larger crowd and the "pros" you will need to rethink the methods of target setup and layout. Also, when the ASA had Penzoil(spelling) the payouts was huge even at the sectional level. If you could get a sponcer like that it would greatly increase you success at getting national recognation.Other than these small problems it sounds like a great idea.Just my .02 and thoughts.


Amen Brother. Lots of people I shoot with will not shoot them for that reason. period.


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## wilsonracing400 (Apr 2, 2006)

then they need to read to rule book or just quit being a sissy since my friends and i have always test who was the best by treading the needle since that will seperate out the boys from the men


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

asa3dpro said:


> Several years ago when the Deermans started the "T.H.E" shoots west of Ada several friends and I went. Well, we was shooting the ASA and IBO nationally. My biggest complaint and reason for not returning was the idea of True Hunting Ethics? 90 % of the shots had the "kill" area blocked where you was having to thread a needle to hit in the lungs:mg: . This was agianst what I thought was the True Hunting Ethics which I would never risk shooting at a animal where the vitals obstructed. I got in a heated debate with a range owner about that. Has this changed? If you are wanting to attract a larger crowd and the "pros" you will need to rethink the methods of target setup and layout. Also, when the ASA had Penzoil(spelling) the payouts was huge even at the sectional level. If you could get a sponcer like that it would greatly increase you success at getting national recognation.Other than these small problems it sounds like a great idea.Just my .02 and thoughts.


I agree 100%!!!


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## z34mann (Feb 4, 2007)

*money*

I don't think we would have a large turnout for a 80 entry for a cash payout, if you kept it the same price and the purse was smaller than I think that class would be full. we do side bets around here, just for a little of nothing just for a chasnce to maybe get your entry fee paid for. I have never one but will continue to put my dollar in. hope you get a club here in the northern showme to hold a shoot, I did have a good time.


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## OkTrad (Jun 27, 2007)

> Why does there need to be a seperate money class at all. Why can't you just pay cash prizes in the classes you have now. $5-$10 from each shooters entry fee goes to the payout. That would be the easiest way to settle the whole thing. I believe that would make the majority happy.


I agree 100%! Why not have the option if you want to enter in the money round in your class you pay X amount more money and 100% of that money goes into the purse.



> I still shot T.H.E. some but if I have a choice on a weekend between paying $15 at a shoot thats putting $5 back for each shooter and paying $20-$25 to shoot at a T.H.E. event giving away a $5 trophy or plague. With the entry fees being charged by T.H.E. you could give away the $2.50-$5.00 plague and give a payout too. Some may not agree, but thats just how I see things. Maybe someone can enlighten me on why this would'nt work


I agree again. I shot an ASA tourney at Ed Wheelers range in Ada this year and a week later I had a check in the mail. It wasn't a ton of money but it sure helped offset some of expenses. I like shooting THE, but the prizes(belt buckles) offered don't warrant the money I'm spending. Next year I will shoot several THE rounds that are close to home, but I will not hit any of the ones that are over 30 miles. I will be saving my money to travel to some of the tourneys that offer money/prizes. Not saying I will win the money/prizes but I sure enjoy trying. 

I sure do hope THE takes a hard look at this because I really do enjoy shooting at their tourneys.


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## Okie Archer (May 16, 2007)

THEDeerman said:


> The classes available will be our *Open, Hunter, Single-Pin, and Women's.*


Oktrad,

I feel the same way, but from what I read so far, I don't think they were planning on offering a money shoot for us traditional shooters. 

So you better start saving up for gas money....


J


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

If there is a interest in a Trad. area for the challeger series events we will add it in as well.

As for everything else here thank you all for your opinions and we will review all of this as we venture deeper into building this circuit.

The point of this circuit is to separate the money class shooter from the average joes. There is a difference.

As for defending ourselves about out hunting situation setups....I see no need at all. We have many shooters that are loving it.

We are considering opening the circuit for 08. At the very least we will be reopening a mens and womens "Pro" classes.


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

THEDeerman said:


> At the very least we will be reopening a mens and womens "Pro" classes.


Glad to hear that!!! :wink:


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Their are other chages that are on the books discussed as well. No, No lets not get off into that here. This thread needs to remain about the money circuit. I will let everyone know after the meeting August 25 and 26 what was discussed in a different thread. If you have any input you would like us to consider please send me a PM or a direct e-mail. Everyone understand we will not be finaizing anything during this meeting there is no vote. Heather and I make the finalization in the weeks following the meeting with the help and input of our advisory board.


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## Okie Archer (May 16, 2007)

Hey Jimmie, sent you a PM. Did you get it?


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## bowman69 (Aug 10, 2004)

OkTrad said:


> I agree 100%! Why not have the option if you want to enter in the money round in your class you pay X amount more money and 100% of that money goes into the purse.


IMHO this would be the first step....I shoot THE because it is not a money shoot....but I don't have a problem with those who enjoy the challenge and oppurtunity of money on the line....Everyone that knows me or that I have shot with understands I'm all about fun, I'm competative but not serious and THE gives guys like me a place to shoot and just enjoy the sport of archery...I did win Shooter of the Year in the Hunter Class but I never accutally was buying for it...Jimmie I am all for THE bringing in money shooters but I would shy away from creating a pro curcuit, I think those who shoot and like THE do so because it's an average joe envirnoment...


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

I understand your concern, but please trust me I wil not let the "Pro" circuit effect the average joe side of our current circuits. This is exactly what I mean by there are two different types of shooters the money class shooter and the average joe. I will not put you or anyone else in the position of having to donate your money into any purse that we create. But, by separating the money shooter into their own feild I hope we can make not everyone, but maybe a few more happy.


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