# Hand Shock????



## BlkIce (Apr 16, 2008)

I got my Bear Montana Longbow today. Yipeeeee
I was surprise how accurate I was with it right off the bat. Very nice shooting bow. I have been shooting a recurve since starting trad shooting. Only been a little over a month. One thing I notice right away is the amount of "hand shock" that I feel with the longbow that isn't there with the recurve. Is this normal or do I need to do something to the bow? It is 64", 50# @28". Thanks


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Blk -

Yes it is. 

There are things you "might" be able to do to lessen it, but it will still be more than a recurve.

Now, if you shoot it EXCLUSIVELY for a month or so, oddly enough it might just disappear. Sometimes it happens.

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Handshock is the result of bow inefficiency magnified by the bows physical weight, or lack there of. You can increase efficiency of your Montanna by using a high-performance string, and boost the physical weight by using a bow quiver. 

Most longbows have more shock than recurves because of these two reasons, but you'll find alot of variaton depending on the bow design.


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

One of the guys I shot with who owned a Montana used baseball bat tape to wrap the grip on his. While it doesn't lessen the shock of the bow, it lessened the amount sent to his hand. Also, because of the tapes thickness, it provided him and I a better grip.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

That is one reason I switched to deflex / reflex longbows. My "wesley" special Hill longbow is not enjoyable for me to shoot due to the hand shock. It is very critical of brace height and the minute it gets a bit out of the sweet spot you will know it. I dont get any noticable shock from my DF/RF longbows. I would look at your brace height and see if you can get some of it out of your bow.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Blk -

The other "trad" option, in addition to that Kegan and landrylm said is to use heavy (heavier) arrows while maintaining the same spine. Increasing the spine AND (naturally) raising the brace height can help too.

Seriously, that's a trait of the style of bow, and you do get used to it, to a point where it's barely noticeable (most people anyway). 

Don't get sucked into the "you have to hold it a certain way" stuff. The Montana has a decent grip, so it should fit fairly well.

Viper1 out.


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## BlkIce (Apr 16, 2008)

The grip feels great. The hand shock is not enough that I'm really worried about it. Its not uncomfortable to shoot. I've shot about 100 arrows through it tonight.  I may change the brace height a bit, just to see. It is at 7 3/4 now so, maybe 8??? Thanks guys. Its nice to know that a place like this is available to help the new guys. Makes learning alot easier. BEERS FOR EVERYONE.


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## Floatsum (Jan 14, 2010)

Big difference between "curve & longbow!
Recurve you want to cradle between thumb and forefinger *loosely*.
Longbow you want to grip like it's a snake getting loose.
LB's are like women, you've gotta take hold, or run the risk of being out of control. 
Simply the nature of the beast. Nothing modern, high tech, or anything. Simply basic neanderthal. 
I've heard, " You've got to tame it to own it."


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Floatsum said:


> Big difference between "curve & longbow!
> Recurve you want to cradle between thumb and forefinger *loosely*.
> Longbow you want to grip like it's a snake getting loose.
> LB's are like women, you've gotta take hold, or run the risk of being out of control.
> ...


That's not really a good idea. It builds tension in the bow arm, doesn't really help shock, and makes it ALOT easier to miss. Actually, while experimenting with a tight grip I wound up hurting my elbow. One of only about three injuries I've ever gotten in archery


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

All my bows,both recurve and longbow have hand shock to some extent.
My straight limbed longbow by far the most,and my Hoyt Pro medalist the lest.
I like to use things like rubberised stabilisers and limb savers for both their limb dampening affects,and over all shock absorbsion.
My Straight limbed longbow has Thunderblock limb savers on it to combat the hand shock.
Both my Medalist and Dorado also have short stabs' and limb savers,mainly due to my pushing the limits on light arrow wheights for IFAA and 3D shooting.
I don't worry about looks,so that's not an issue although I know some folks really dislike the look of limb savers on string bows.
Funny thing is,the shop I bought the longbow from pushes the (fact???) it has very little hand shock.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Kegan -

You have really been doing your homework, WOW. Great analysis. 

Float - 

Sorry, old man, the kid is right (probably can't call him a kid any more). Ya might not want to shoot a long bow with an open hand, but trying to choke it ain't gonna work either. Any tension in the bow hand will travel right up the arm and into the shoulder, or as a friend of mine puts it - rattles his fillings.

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Viper- after a while it eventually starts to sink in. Painful reminders always help too:lol:. But I'm still a kid, and will be for a little while longer. Can't rent a car yet


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## Floatsum (Jan 14, 2010)

Not talking "death grip",, only _firm_ hold (in relationship).
Then again, what others consider "shock" I may not. 
My mention of comparison to the recurve is because when I did shoot recurve, I used a sling to catch it. Big difference from what I'm thinking.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Kegan -

We're all still kids in some ways (heck we still play with bows and arrows, right), but trust me on this one: don't rush growin' up :slice::slice::slice:

Viper1 out.


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Ya might not want to shoot a long bow with an open hand, but trying to choke it ain't gonna work either. Any tension in the bow hand will travel right up the arm and into the shoulder, or as a friend of mine puts it - rattles his fillings.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Odd since I've figured out that I'm not actually holding my longbow at all, but rather using the pressure of the draw to hold it in the curve of my hand with fingers open. I don't know when I started doing it, but I developed it at some point. Only noticed when my wife "fussed" because she though I would drop my Christmas present she bought me.


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## BlkIce (Apr 16, 2008)

I never grip my bow. I guess its a carry over from the compound. I keep a very loose hand, I always wiggle my fingers to make sure I"m not gripping. Just a habit. Ya know what happens when you grip a compound... Oh, and I have never had string slap on my forearm either. I know, hard to believe but, haven't "yet".


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*Rent a car?*

:secret: Always listen to Viper;Always! Remember that one?
What would you do with a car anyway? You couldn't drive it, it would have wheels. And then maybe not,since I know that you are shooting storebought carbon arrows.Maybe wheels are next. What happened to the simple savage???


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Seriously, that's a trait of the style of bow, and you do get used to it, to a point where it's barely noticeable (most people anyway).


Well, it is the trait of many types of long bows, especially Hill style bows. Some high performance longbows, like the Adcock reflex-deflex ACS longbows have no handshock. And I say that as an ELB shooter and recurve shooter who also shoots an Adcock longbow, so it isn't just me being insensitive to handshock. I **hate** handshock.

Last year I hauled out my English longbows and shot them and I thought what the heck was I thinking? I used to think of them has having little handshock! But that was compared to other ELBs. And I took out my Viper mild reflex-deflex longbows. Less handshock, but still annoying. But the Adcock? That is still smooth shooting and handshock free. The Adcock has very light limbs thanks to the patented ACS limb profile. Limb weight is a very important factor in handshock.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BlkIce said:


> I never grip my bow. I guess its a carry over from the compound. I keep a very loose hand, I always wiggle my fingers to make sure I"m not gripping. Just a habit. Ya know what happens when you grip a compound... Oh, and I have never had string slap on my forearm either. I know, hard to believe but, haven't "yet".


String slap isn't just about form it has to do with the bow. Lots of string slap happens on the rebound, as the string bounces back after loosing the arrow. Bows with poor torsional resistance in the limbs give more string slap, but it happens too fast to see with the naked eye.


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## No wheels (Feb 13, 2010)

*No hand shock*

This is a riser pic of one of my longbows. The radius I use in the limbs, the handle design, and the taper I use in the laminations produces a fast and smooth bow. Tip to tip unstrung 57.5 inches pulls 56 #@ 28.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Blk -

What WB said is correct about the string traveling beyond the resting brace height. The string slap point of impact can be diagnostic. Longbows with typically lower brace heights tend to hit the low forearm/wrist area, incorrect grip low to mid forearm and the meaty part of the upper forearm is almost always due to incomplete arm rotation. 

WB and NWs -

We're talking about a Bear Montana, which is similar in some respects to a Hill style "D" bow, and not hybrids or more severe R/Ds. Problem is that today, except for some organizational classification rules, the term "longbow" can have as many meaning as the word "truck". 

Viper1 out.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Problem is that today, except for some organizational classification rules, the term "longbow" can have as many meaning as the word "truck".
> 
> Viper1 out.


Up, at some shoots English longbows shoot in the same class as carbon hyper reflex deflex high performance "longbows" with Fast Flight strings. Weird.


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## nyamazan (Jan 31, 2008)

I have only shot with cheap D shaped longbows and I have an old Hoyt T/D 3.
Now before reading on this forum about hand shock I never noticed any.
Ignorance is bliss as they say. Could it be something we're looking for?


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## slade (Feb 21, 2003)

I read this on another site: Hold onto the bow with just your index finger and thumb. I tired it, it works, but does not feel right and will take some getting used to. I also use my middle finger lightly.


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## warrenpeace (Jan 5, 2010)

I discovered the hardway if you measure you brace height wrong (from the wrong spot) and really have it about 2 inches more that it should be you can get a real real nasty arm slap it really hurt and did it leave a mark. So I reread what the brach height should be and discovered I was measuring from the wrong place. Have not had that problem since.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Viper- when I turned 18 I realized I wasn't any different. Since then I've become very comfortable with the term "kid"... makes me feel less liable for goof-ups

Floatsum- It's just that I know from experience that without anyone actually there to help, it's really easy to misunderstand and take things too far. In "Hitting 'Em like Howard Hill" John SHulz tells you to "get ahold of the bow" even though he's not squeezing the daylights out of it (something that Asbell wrote in his book.)

ForestGump- It's still the principal of the matter. I can't drink either- doesn't mean I intend to. And the simple savage has simply become... more _economical_:lol:.


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## petew (Nov 14, 2004)

I shoot a variety of bows, the montana is one. I won this bow and the first shots off it were Hand shock major,100 percent painfull. LOL
The factory 16 strand Dacron factory string went into the garbage and I put on a good 10 strand DF97 with 16 strand loops. I use a small set of beaver balls and the bow is now quite nice to shoot. The shock is gone. I won't say completely dead in the hand , but it is a not to bad to shoot bow now.Certainly nothing to be concerned with. The performance also went up considerably, and it is quieter.

Since then I shaped the grip slightly as it was sort of square, and reduced the noc size a lot. Shaping the grip was a good move, but triming the nocks was a waste of time. It made zero diference in performance. Exactly the same speed before and after the tip reduction.
Bottom line, change the string and you will find it shoots like a new bow.Braced from 7 1/4 to 7 1/2" it is shooting with the best feel and least noise.

Pete


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