# Asa 2013 target selection



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Are the 12's/connectors changing? 

Are we officially not shooting 14's in any class?



typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Are the 12's/connectors changing?
> 
> Are we officially not shooting 14's in any class?
> 
> ...


Here is the breakdown on the 14s / 12s:
The 14 ring will no longer be scored in any ASA Pro/Am competitons including the class competitions, Team Shoots, or the LimbSaver Known Distance. The new rule for all competitions and classes will be as follows:

"Each target has two (2) 12-rings. At each target the lower 12-ring will be in play initially for all shooters. At each individual target a shooter may elect to have the upper 12-ring scored by announcing their intention to shoot for it. Upon announcing their election to shoot the upper 12-ring the scorekeepers will acknowledge and note this election, and the lower 12-ring will no longer be in play to be scored for that shooter on that individual target only."


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> The 14 ring will no longer be scored...


Well, I must be the minority but IMO, that sucks....


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I liked the 14 ring
It was a do or die thing

Many people won and lost tournaments by them


Will the 14 be scored at a local level of events?


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Like the idea of the coyote being at each shoot.......tuff target 


No ibex???
Sucks cause I bought 2 last year now I'll have to just turn them into broadheads targets :-(


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I too think it sucks that there is no IBEX,alligator,turkeys,elk,standing bear...any others im missing???


Dewayne


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Babyk said:


> I liked the 14 ring
> It was a do or die thing
> 
> Many people won and lost tournaments by them
> ...


Qualifiers.....No...

For any other shoot you want to do....thats all up to the club


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

vabowdog said:


> I too think it sucks that there is no IBEX,alligator,turkeys,elk,standing bear...any others im missing???
> 
> 
> Dewayne


There has NEVER been an elk or gator at any ASA Pro/am......and the turkeys' have been gone for years.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> Here is the breakdown on the 14s / 12s:
> The 14 ring will no longer be scored in any ASA Pro/Am competitons


And there was great rejoicing!

I also look forward to seeing ranges set at further distances with the removal of the 14 ring. Every year, it seemed targets were getting closer, but with everybody gunning for the 12's, I think they will have to back them up or the targets will get destroyed too quickly.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I am personally glad the 14's are gone scores will be closer!


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Asa took the 14 away because the targets on the ranges were getting to torn up like backs being blown out based on how much 14s being shot?

Also does this mean with the upper and lower 12s being scored if called classes that shot lowers one day and uppers the next will not anymore? Will just shoot lowers unless uppers are called?


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

With these changes will the range officials be out ensuring that things are being done correct?


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

14s made the pro shoot down fun 
Now it's going to not be as much fun
Who wants to see Levi shoot 5-12s????
We all love sitting there seeing if Hammer was going to win or blow it going for 14s!!!!

Thanks ASA for taking the fun of the shoot down away :-(


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Uummmm.....the 14 are in the pro shootdown only


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## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

Going to be a lot of lower scores now and the scores will probably be closer. This was my first year shooting and never got to shoot at the 14s so not that big of a deal to me. I love the option to call the upper if the lower is blocked up. Gives the faith and sixth shooters a shot at still getting 12s. 

Cant wait for next season. Heck I am looking forward to the first ASA shoot more than I am opening day next Saturday.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Babyk said:


> Like the idea of the coyote being at each shoot.......tuff target
> 
> 
> No ibex???
> Sucks cause I bought 2 last year now I'll have to just turn them into broadheads targets :-(


the ibex held up too long so they take it out


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

3Dblackncamo said:


> the ibex held up too long so they take it out


that is not why.....not even close...lol


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## DocMort (Sep 24, 2009)

Coming back to uchee creek awesome


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

bhtr3d said:


> that is not why.....not even close...lol


then what is the reason, you just dont seem to get it, they bring it out for 1 season, so pros, 3D ranges and ameaturs buy them so they can learn it and shoot it now that everyone has it they take it away, care to explain?


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

If I read and comprehended correctly, the lower 12 is in play for everyone/everyclass both days. If the bottom 12 is blocked, the archer can call his shot at the upper 12. When this happens only the upper 12 counts...if you the archer hits the bottom 12, after calling the top 12, the arrow will be scored a 10

the 14s are only inplay during thepro shoot-down round.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Don't care for the calling the upper 12... Just leave it all lower only if you last then you will be first on the next target just shooters luck...


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Sorry guys but I told Mike that these were the targets I shoot the best so he needed to only have them at the ProAms.:angel:


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I stand corrected on the 14s in pro shoot down comment 


Still silly the ibex is gone

Now I got 2 targets that are of no use to me
Guess I'll put them in with my Elk-Alligator-caribou-tree bear- turkeys I can't use for IBO anymore also

Taking away the Ibex was silly if you ask md


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Bubba Dean said:


> Sorry guys but I told Mike that these were the targets I shoot the best so he needed to only have them at the ProAms.:angel:



Mike is only Interested in one thing.....$$$$$$!!!!!!
I was told from a ASA insider that the 14s are being taken out of play to boost the sell of the ranges and increase the fees based on the upper portion of the targets (14 ring area) were not damaged and most likley with the new core inserted it would be almost like a brand new target......

ASA is a business like any it needs to make money......don't take away things the people (customers) like to pad your pocket in another direction......take care of the people who take care of you


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Babyk said:


> Mike is only Interested in one thing.....$$$$$$!!!!!!
> I was told from a ASA insider that the 14s are being taken out of play to boost the sell of the ranges and increase the fees based on the upper portion of the targets (14 ring area) were not damaged and most likley with the new core inserted it would be almost like a brand new target......
> 
> ASA is a business like any it needs to make money......don't take away things the people (customers) like to pad your pocket in another direction......take care of the people who take care of you


you are correct however if mckenzie would build a better target that would hold up the ranges would sell not matter what, they dont want the inserts to last its all about $$$$$$$ to sell more, change targets and sell more its all bs


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

Nice choice of targets, never shot an ASA shoot other than the PA state shoot but if the market keeps going up I listed 5 ASA shoots and 5 IBO shoots that I plan to attend this year starting in Flordia. I really won't miss the turkey and gator that I seem to shoot at least 4 times at most IBO national shoots. I wish someone from the IBO would also come on here and list the rinehart targets they picked for this coming year. Thanks bhtr3d for sharing...


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## 21RFL (Mar 10, 2012)

I think ASA needs to quit telling what targets will be at what shoots,that way some of these shooters will quit crying about wasting their money on targets that will not be at the shoots.Show up and shoot what they have on the range and you will see a lot more closer scores I think.Go to as many local 3D shoots you can so you get to shoot at the various targets ASA uses.Good idea on taking away 14 ring tearing up targets to bad costing clubs to much replacement on targets at qualifiers.


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## 21RFL (Mar 10, 2012)

McKenzie is building good targets,if you have ever shot their XT target you know what i am talking about.We have XTs at our local club and shot them for 6 months you cant hardly tell they have been shot,no shot out spots for a target.No cores need to be replaced at this time.Big thumbs up for McKenzie on their line of XT targets


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

3Dblackncamo said:


> you are correct however if mckenzie would build a better target that would hold up the ranges would sell not matter what, they dont want the inserts to last its all about $$$$$$$ to sell more, change targets and sell more its all bs


You are exactly correct the targets they used at the classic where a waste! Heads following off that you could not get to stay on, hollow legs where they did not pour all the way through and targets with no cores I carried a mule deer off the B range that had no insert! A range official told me that if he had personally ordered the targets he would have sent them all back to mckenzie! Good looking target but no quality control! I do like knowing what target we will be shooting by the way!!!


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Am sure like most American businesses ASA are attempting to find ways to cut cost and make more profit. People enjoy the national ASA shoots......I think the 14s not being in play will effect the number of shooters in K45 & K50 since that seemed to be the big 14 ring class......hope numbers in these classes don't drop off cause of this change.......I know some people love the 14s and others hate them but this rule change will be talked about all year long and I am sure most armature (which make up over 51% of ASA members) would had like to seen the 14s hang around!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Babyk said:


> With these changes will the range officials be out ensuring that things are being done correct?


ah ha! a man of insight. my guess is probably not.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> Sorry guys but I told Mike that these were the targets I shoot the best so he needed to only have them at the ProAms.:angel:


i call a big BS on that! the Buzzard swears the only target you didn't shoot a five on was the standing bear at 10 yards...just Buzz's rumors though.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

This is how i thought it would go.

Not sure what i think of it yet.

I liked the opportunity for 14s when needed

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

Babyk said:


> Am sure like most American businesses ASA are attempting to find ways to cut cost and make more profit. People enjoy the national ASA shoots......I think the 14s not being in play will effect the number of shooters in K45 & K50 since that seemed to be the big 14 ring class......hope numbers in these classes don't drop off cause of this change.......I know some people love the 14s and others hate them but this rule change will be talked about all year long and I am sure most armature (which make up over 51% of ASA members) would had like to seen the 14s hang around!


There was a poll on ASA's website about the 14's. It was overwhelming against them. I think around 75% didn't want them.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

gaberichter said:


> There was a poll on ASA's website about the 14's. It was overwhelming against them. I think around 75% didn't want them.




Well once again I stand corrected


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Yeah it was very overwhelming poll. I was surprised. Not sure exactly how many of the membership participated in the poll. But regardless if you were a member you had the opportunity to participate.

Maybe an email to all members regarding the poll would have been a little bigger representation of the deal but...again. Im not surprised this went into play. Still not sure what I think of it.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey poll was offered in website 
The membership spoke can't argue that


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Garceau said:


> Yeah it was very overwhelming poll. I was surprised. Not sure exactly how many of the membership participated in the poll. But regardless if you were a member you had the opportunity to participate.
> 
> Maybe an email to all members regarding the poll would have been a little bigger representation of the deal but...again. Im not surprised this went into play. Still not sure what I think of it.


kevin......you couldnt hit them anyhow....so what does it matter.....LOL......had to give ya rib...btw pm me your number i wanna ask ya a cfew things...


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> that is not why.....not even close...lol


then why not shoot the ibex?


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## Bowtech11 (Mar 21, 2006)

If they would have put the 14 in the 5 area it would have been better


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

My understanding on the Ibex was the cost. I believe it was around $50 just for the horns.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

baird794 said:


> then why not shoot the ibex?


I want to know. Really aggravating to buy one and then it not be a part of the Pro ams.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

bhtr3d, thanks for the info.

I like the decisions you guys have made and I really like the option of calling the upper 12 for the close shots where the low 12 is full of fat shafts. 

I thing the classes will be more competitive this year because a lot of guys after missing a couple shots totally give up for the weekend and just shoot at 14's the rest of the weekend even though they still had a chance to salvage their weekend. I saw this happen many times this summer to some really good shooters. Now even after a bad shot they will still be shooting at the 12 unless they just shoot every target in the azz just to prove a point.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Jame said:


> I want to know. Really aggravating to buy one and then it not be a part of the Pro ams.


I agree. Bought a standing bear and now it's gone!


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Jame said:


> I want to know. Really aggravating to buy one and then it not be a part of the Pro ams.


jame understands what I said, its all bs and about $$$$$- the ibex has a very thick vital that holds up well, could it be that the vital lasted too long, it is just too hard and expensive to buy and keep up with ASA especially for indivuals and clubs


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

3Dblackncamo said:


> you are correct however if mckenzie would build a better target that would hold up the ranges would sell not matter what, they dont want the inserts to last its all about $$$$$$$ to sell more, change targets and sell more its all bs


I'll second that. I shot out 8 cores this summer with one only being able to withstand 200 shots. Anyone wanting 8 African series targets with brand new cores, I'm ready to sell. South central Ky..


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

gaberichter said:


> There was a poll on ASA's website about the 14's. It was overwhelming against them. I think around 75% didn't want them.


I do NOT mean this with disrespect towards anyone but I believe the reason the poll was overwhelmingly against the 14 is because the majority of archers feel that there are some archers that are much better shots than themselves. They know that at the end of the day having the 14's on the range will put them further behind the best archers. For example, if there were neither a 14 or _12_ ring there would be a LOT more archers feeling good about themselves for being "tied" for the top 3 or 4 positions! ..........until the shoot off......... These guys are thinking that removing the 14 may help them place higher if they get real _lucky _on a given weekend and keep their shots in the 10 while the best shots are a bit off and pick up too many 8's. They are only somewhat right as the best shots are still going to come out on top. There will just be a lot more guys "tied" in the lower placing positions. If there were only an 8 and 5 ring then even more folks can be "tied" for the lead......until the shoot off but with some "luck" who knows what may happen. The better an archer is at shooting AND _*competing *_the less he relies on luck.......... The top SOY scores could be tighter or have more folks close since the best shots _may _not pile up as many points at a single tournament.

:wink: The fact is at the end of the weekend guys like Morelli are still going to be whipping the snot out of us mere mortals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




cenochs said:


> I am personally glad the 14's are gone scores will be closer!





shootist said:


> And there was great rejoicing!
> 
> I also look forward to seeing ranges set at further distances with the removal of the 14 ring. Every year, it seemed targets were getting closer, but with everybody gunning for the 12's, I think they will have to back them up or the targets will get destroyed too quickly.


I agree that the 12 ring will now be taking all the hits that the 14 absorbed. I hope they plan to have more cores on hand for replacing _during _a round.



tmorelli said:


> Well, I must be the minority but IMO, that sucks....


I won't go so far as to say it sucks but I think the 14 added some excitement. More than once I struggled with the decision of going for it or not. I like the added pressure and challenge. 



cenochs said:


> Don't care for the calling the upper 12... Just leave it all lower only if you last then you will be first on the next target just shooters luck...


Cenochs, I have to disagree. I think calling the upper 12 is a very good thing. Where you happen to draw in the shooting order (all luck) and the targets you shoot last, first, second or maybe even 6th (all luck) should be minimised. It's an archery competition not bingo. I think I shot one upper 12 at the ASA Classic. But shooting K45 with 6 in a group, not having the 14 AND not having the upper 12 option it's possible that the "luck of the draw" could have too large of an impact on how your archery skills rate against others. Some things we can not control like the weather, a bug flying into your eye as you release or having a sudden health issue as you walk onto the course. We absolutely should do what we can to limit blind luck impacting the game. The less pure "luck" has to do with the _archery competition _ the more archery skills can be appreciated............. I enjoy games of chance but archery is a game of skill. HOWEVER, I do pray for good luck!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Did they decide if all scoring rings where going to be the same size on all targets? This is what I was told at the classic! Everything else I was told at the classic has come true!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

cenochs said:


> Did they decide if all scoring rings where going to be the same size on all targets? This is what I was told at the classic! Everything else I was told at the classic has come true!


its the plan


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## ProtecMan (Apr 14, 2003)

Reading this thread, our club bought a range of targets along with new inserts at Paris last spring and couldnt' be happier! The Open B class shot these targets on Sunday, not sure who shot them on Saturday, but they were in great shape and should last us for a while. 
Even though the prices went up last year, we still felt we got a pretty good deal. We will probably buy another range in 2014.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I'd like to get some targets this coming year...to practice just on yardage judging.

How much do you guys want for the Ibex's you just bought? Instead of just shooting them up with broadheads, why not sell them? 

The Classic was my first big ASA shoot last year and the way we done the 12s there worked pretty good...and that's how this thread says they will be doing it next year for all the shoots. We were told the lower 12s were in play the whole time unless it was blocked, and then we could call uppers. 

This worked out really well for the class I shot. Out of 40 total targets shot, I think only 4 or 5 times did we call uppers due to blocked lowers...and only one of us actually hit one, and that was me.

I personally like how they are doing thing. I know there will always be those who whine about it being this way and not that way, etc. You can't make everybody happy.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

McKenzie is working on having a 5" O.D. for all 10-rings regardless of target size. The 12-rings and the 11-ring will all be 1.5" O.D. which will effectively provide a separation among these scoring rings. All lines are to be .125" in width which will also help with the "pulled line" issue and bonus rings touching on several targets.

They are focused on making sure the targets with the smaller 10-rings are done first, but hope to have our entire 23 target line that we have announced completed by Florida.

[email protected]


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> McKenzie is working on having a 5" O.D. for all 10-rings regardless of target size. The 12-rings and the 11-ring will all be 1.5" O.D. which will effectively provide a separation among these scoring rings. All lines are to be .125" in width which will also help with the "pulled line" issue and bonus rings touching on several targets.
> 
> They are focused on making sure the targets with the smaller 10-rings are done first, but hope to have our entire 23 target line that we have announced completed by Florida.
> 
> [email protected]


first you say all the 10 rings will be the same size on all targets, and then you're saying some will have smaller 10 rings...what gives Mike?


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## brad-g (Feb 21, 2011)

Kstigall said:


> I do NOT mean this with disrespect towards anyone but I believe the reason the poll was overwhelmingly against the 14 is because the majority of archers feel that there are some archers that are much better shots than themselves. They know that at the end of the day having the 14's on the range will put them further behind the best archers. For example, if there were neither a 14 or _12_ ring there would be a LOT more archers feeling good about themselves for being "tied" for the top 3 or 4 positions! ..........until the shoot off......... These guys are thinking that removing the 14 may help them place higher if they get real _lucky _on a given weekend and keep their shots in the 10 while the best shots are a bit off and pick up too many 8's. They are only somewhat right as the best shots are still going to come out on top. There will just be a lot more guys "tied" in the lower placing positions. If there were only an 8 and 5 ring then even more folks can be "tied" for the lead......until the shoot off but with some "luck" who knows what may happen. The better an archer is at shooting AND _*competing *_the less he relies on luck.......... The top SOY scores could be tighter or have more folks close since the best shots _may _not pile up as many points at a single tournament.
> 
> :wink: The fact is at the end of the weekend guys like Morelli are still going to be whipping the snot out of us mere mortals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I've been thinking the same thing about people wanting the 14s gone since the talk started. Shot my first 2 asa this year kentucky and illinois. I definetly think the 14s added some fun, i'll miss them next year.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I do not undestand why they would make all the scoring rings the same size on all the targets.....nothing fun about that.....Shooting the coyote with the same vitals a a Large Alert doesnt really make much sense to me but hey what do I know I only pay money for gas to drive 11hr to shoot and pay for hotels and entry fees and buy way to much from LAS and other vendors at the shoots!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> first you say all the 10 rings will be the same size on all targets, and then you're saying some will have smaller 10 rings...what gives Mike?


Targets with the smaller 10 rings will be changed to the 5" O.D. first.

Note also the IBO 11 ring will be changed in size.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Since IBO will be shooting Rineharts why doesn't McKenzie eliminate the 11 ring all together?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Bubba Dean said:


> Since IBO will be shooting Rineharts why doesn't McKenzie eliminate the 11 ring all together?


Some clubs just dont want to buy rineharts, is why????


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

carlosii said:


> first you say all the 10 rings will be the same size on all targets, and then you're saying some will have smaller 10 rings...what gives Mike?


Carlossi.....I answered your post about this on the ASA forum.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> McKenzie is working on having a 5" O.D. for all 10-rings regardless of target size. The 12-rings and the 11-ring will all be 1.5" O.D. which will effectively provide a separation among these scoring rings. All lines are to be .125" in width which will also help with the "pulled line" issue and bonus rings touching on several targets.


Of course changing some 10 rings may cause the 12 rings to be relocated - figure 10s made smaller and larger, uniform 12 ring and uniform line width. Maybe 1/4" to 1" difference?
Here's present - taking from ASA forums;
10-Ring Size (O.D.) - will now be standard 5.00"
5.250" - 1/4"
4.625" - 3/8"
4.000" - 1"
12 - ring Size (O.D.) - will now be standard 1.500"
1.875" - 3/8"
1.750" - 1/4"
1.625" - 1/8"


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

bhtr3d said:


> Carlossi.....I answered your post about this on the ASA forum.


thanks...wasn't sure about this...sounded...well, confusing.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Tim if you remember a few years back McKenzie stopped putting 12's in their targets. Just thought they might due the same with the 11.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Due to at the least NFAA the center X ring would remain. What other organizations use the center X ring?

I can remember the center X ring being different sizes on three McKenzie targets, a buck deer, the sitting mountain lion and the javalina. Of the buck target the center X ring was small, real small. Of the mountain lion, Harry, his brother-in-law and shot at the old Caterpillar Archery club. The factory X ring was huge, baseball size. We were quite shocked as all other newer lions had regular size X rings. The javalina has changed. Once the center X ring was quite large for the 10 ring. None of these targets then had ASA 12 rings.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

I always just liked the older targets with only the lower 12 ring. Not a deal breaker I just liked them better.


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

What if both 12 are blocked.What do we call then?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Man, ya'll over think this stuff. I don't care what rings you put where. I don't care if they are 2" at one tournament and .75" at the next..........as long as everyone shoots the same course and plays by the same rules.

....oh and that you put the 14's back in :wink:. ASA, you caved to the whiners who can't shoot them. Don't give me a crapola argument about target preservation and sale value. If you want targets to last longer and be worth more at sale, Quit turning them 45 degrees and putting them at 23 yards. Broadside targets dont get torn up so quickly and targets at reasonable distances don't get 14's shot out on them.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Why no 14s on the sims range?
Seems kinda silly to me as people are trying to shoot as high as they can 
Not fun to only shoot 12s there if you ask me


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

No more sims range for me since there no 14s........be one less T Bone steak Mike T will eat cause not getting my $15 to go out and shoot at 12s on a Sims range


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Man, ya'll over think this stuff. I don't care what rings you put where. I don't care if they are 2" at one tournament and .75" at the next..........as long as everyone shoots the same course and plays by the same rules.
> 
> ....oh and that you put the 14's back in :wink:. ASA, you caved to the whiners who can't shoot them. Don't give me a crapola argument about target preservation and sale value. If you want targets to last longer and be worth more at sale, Quit turning them 45 degrees and putting them at 23 yards. Broadside targets dont get torn up so quickly and targets at reasonable distances don't get 14's shot out on them.


Exactly! By removing the 14 the ASA is increasing the importance of "luck". If I get "lucky" and hit the 12 someone else can't out score me even if they are a better archer. If I hit a 10 the better archer can only go up 2 points on me rather than 4. If I'm "lucky" the better archers will go in a shave low and get an 8 while I plunk the 10........ I got news for the guys hoping "luck" gets them to the top. The better archers are going to be shooting more towards the 10 side of the 12 with the 14 out of play thus reducing the chance of them hitting an 8.

Maybe they should take the 12's out of play on the first day. A lot more people will be "tied" for the lead at the half way point. Then the whiners could at least feel good about themselves for half the tournament.............. They'll REALLY feel like crap though when they fold up on the second day when the pressure is on and the 12's count. 

Maybe the ASA should make BOTH 12's in play at all times (don't have to call which 12). That would help the weaker shooters more than the best shooters. The best archers won't hit as many accidental 12's as the less accurate archers. Occasionally someone would have a real "lucky" weekend and have their arrows hit a higher number of stray 12's while aiming at the center of the 10...... 

How about having a handicap? Then everyone would be "equal" and with a little "luck" a decent archer might pull out a win occasionally............It's not _fair _that archery skills are so important in scoring while "luck", while important, is much less important than skill. :vom:

They took the 14 out of play for the Pro's because Levi was kicking their butts............. How did that work out?

I'm expecting to see more blown out 12 rings on the second day. Especially the 10 side of the 12 ring. If the 12 is blown up you'll be seeing more arrows being called a 12 simply because you won't be able to call it _out_ of the 12. I don't know how the ASA thinks they'll save or make more money by replacing MORE cores during a tournament. Unless they do NOT replace shot out cores when it is needed. If they don't replace shot out cores when the 12 is shot up then "luck" will play an even bigger part in how an archer scores on a given weekend. 

For clubs it is much more important that the targets have good 12 rings and core than a good 14 ring area! At the local level there aren't nearly as many folks that shoot at the 14 as there are at national tournaments. Without the 14 in play in national tournaments even LESS folks will shoot at the 14 in local shoots. 

I really don't understand doing away with the 14. Is Mckenzie looking to sell more cores? Doing away with 14's will have the cores getting shot out quicker........

I know in K45 they could simply reduce the number of real short targets (less than 30 yards) to reduce target damage. Setting a big bedded buck at +/- 27 yards (at the Classic) is going to get the 14 ring or the 12 ring blown out in fairly short order on most of the ranges. Putting a leopard (London, KY) with it's big 14 at +/- 25 yards is going to get the 12 or the 14 blown up quickly.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rules and rules. Mercy. Maybe I didn't catch it. So the lower 12 is in play, the upper 12 can be called. ??? So are those that were required to the shoot the upper 12 still required and have to call the lower 12? And if vice versa? I mean, some at our state were required to shoot 50/50 on upper and lower 12s. The 14 was done away with on the ProAm level, so is it or isn't it still a valid shot at state Qualifers and state Championships? Bow Novice? They can't shoot 14s at the ProAm level, but nothing noted for state level? Of course probably adding to the confusion may be state's using National rules with their own made up state rules.


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## ccumming (Feb 14, 2012)

I cant imagine what the 12's will look like on the SIMS. You could probably shoot center IBO and get a 12 on Sunday.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> Exactly! By removing the 14 the ASA is increasing the importance of "luck". If I get "lucky" and hit the 12 someone else can't out score me even if they are a better archer. If I hit a 10 the better archer can only go up 2 points on me rather than 4. If I'm "lucky" the better archers will go in a shave low and get an 8 while I plunk the 10........ I got news for the guys hoping "luck" gets them to the top. The better archers are going to be shooting more towards the 10 side of the 12 with the 14 out of play thus reducing the chance of them hitting an 8.
> 
> Maybe they should take the 12's out of play on the first day. A lot more people will be "tied" for the lead at the half way point. Then the whiners could at least feel good about themselves for half the tournament.............. They'll REALLY feel like crap though when they fold up on the second day when the pressure is on and the 12's count.
> 
> ...





Just thought I would bring some light to a few things . 

1st) From what I can recall....the upper / lower 12 thing for the known classes: The lower on one day ....and upper on the next has been done away with.
For example: Open B: the lower 12 was on the unknown side...and the upper was on the known side: 
The format will be The lower 12 is on both days.....and the ''''shooter''' can call if they wish to shoot at the upper 12 on either day. 

2nd) The 14s were not in play for the Pros ever on the range...and still wont be. They will be for the shoot down...as in the past.....So no biggy about Levi....it's the same sage as in the past.... 

3rd) The cores as a whole are not going to get shot out. It did not happen at all at the Classic...and this is when we started this style format. Now, yes I am sure that a core here and there will, it is just nature of the law of probablility. 

4th) There will not be the issue that people always had about ohh, I am pulling the line. The lines are going to be made to were you are not going to be able to '''pull'' them with the new sizing of the rings and lines.

5th) We are looking forward to another great and banner year. Remember Feb. 1 - 3, 2013 Newberry, Fl.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Rules and rules. Mercy. Maybe I didn't catch it. So the lower 12 is in play, the upper 12 can be called. ??? So are those that were required to the shoot the upper 12 still required and have to call the lower 12? And if vice versa? I mean, some at our state were required to shoot 50/50 on upper and lower 12s. The 14 was done away with on the ProAm level, so is it or isn't it still a valid shot at state Qualifers and state Championships? Bow Novice? They can't shoot 14s at the ProAm level, but nothing noted for state level? Of course probably adding to the confusion may be state's using National rules with their own made up state rules.




The state level ....is to be using /mirroring the national level.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Just thought I would bring some light to a few things .
> 
> 1st) From what I can recall....the upper / lower 12 thing for the known classes: The lower on one day ....and upper on the next has been done away with.
> For example: Open B: the lower 12 was on the unknown side...and the upper was on the known side:
> ...


Tim, You have confused me a bit.



2nd) When the 14 was first introduced it was in play on the range in Pro class. Then...... at a tournament Levi made a huge comeback on the second day by drilling 14's. Afterward an uproar ensued because the guys in the first groups didn't know he was smoking them............ So the 14 was taken out of play except during the shootdown.

3rd) We could call upper 12's at any time at the Classic but also at London, KY. I know this was also done in other classes and at other shoots. It seems it is being written into the rules what has been done in practice. I'm not saying as a "whole" the cores will get shot out. Any target that had the 14 shot out with _some_ archers shooting at it would _definitely _have the 12 shot out with _all_ the archers shooting at it. Why would the 12 survive with more hits but not the 14 with less hits?

4th) Why would the lines suddenly stop being pulled by an arrow penetrating close by? Unless the targets are made of a different material I don't understand why we would expect the foam to not be pushed inward potentially pulling the line towards the shaft. The 12 rings can be smaller and away from the 10 ring but they will still have the potential for being "pulled".


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> Tim, You have confused me a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Levi, Tim, Darrin, Danny M and tons of others have had huge comebacks with the 14. It wasnt just one person. That was part of the game. Regardless 14 in play or out of play the same guys are winning. Only way to keep Levi from winning is to break both of his arms. LOL.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

QUOTE=Kstigall;1065297343]Tim, You have confused me a bit.



2nd) When the 14 was first introduced it was in play on the range in Pro class. Then...... at a tournament Levi made a huge comeback on the second day by drilling 14's. Afterward an uproar ensued because the guys in the first groups didn't know he was smoking them............ So the 14 was taken out of play except during the shootdown.

3rd) We could call upper 12's at any time at the Classic but also at London, KY. I know this was also done in other classes and at other shoots. It seems it is being written into the rules what has been done in practice. I'm not saying as a "whole" the cores will get shot out. Any target that had the 14 shot out with _some_ archers shooting at it would _definitely _have the 12 shot out with _all_ the archers shooting at it. Why would the 12 survive with more hits but not the 14 with less hits?

4th) Why would the lines suddenly stop being pulled by an arrow penetrating close by? Unless the targets are made of a different material I don't understand why we would expect the foam to not be pushed inward potentially pulling the line towards the shaft. The 12 rings can be smaller and away from the 10 ring but they will still have the potential for being "pulled".[/QUOTE]


Kent,
Im sorry if I confused you a little. Part of it may have been my own fault. I would have to write a novel to tell the history of what has been with the 14. I just was giving a recent cliff notes version to it. But, like I said the 14s are going to be same it has been for the last few years(Pros Only) for the shoot down. 

The pulling line thing is for the fact (as it been stated to us) that the size of the rings as to where the material '''pulled/sucked in''' it will not be possible to score into the higher ring.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> QUOTE=Kstigall;1065297343]Tim, You have confused me a bit.
> 2nd) When the 14 was first introduced it was in play on the range in Pro class. Then...... at a tournament Levi made a huge comeback on the second day by drilling 14's. Afterward an uproar ensued because the guys in the first groups didn't know he was smoking them............ So the 14 was taken out of play except during the shootdown.


Now I'm confused. The first group wasn't shooting for 14s and that Levi was smokin' em it wasn't fair? Now I could believe that someone could hammer enough 14s and have so many points that he'd win without being in the Shoot Off. There is only so many targets in the shoot off. Of course shooting for 2nd place would be a little lack luster. And I believe sometime back someone almost did that, but only had to shoot so many shoot off targets and no one could touch him....Or was it a her?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> The pulling line thing is for the fact (as it been stated to us) that the size of the rings as to where the material '''pulled/sucked in''' it will not be possible to score into the higher ring.


I'll believe that when I see it. It has nothing to do with width of the line. It is a material "issue" (for lack of better term). Until the lines are not molded into a foam intended to heal, they'll be dragged/pulled/pushed/etc to some extent. My loose understanding was that by reducing the line thickness, the 10/11/12 lines would not intersect and create "connectors" where the scoring could get very "grey" in some groups.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I'll believe that when I see it. It has nothing to do with width of the line. It is a material "issue" (for lack of better term). Until the lines are not molded into a foam intended to heal, they'll be dragged/pulled/pushed/etc to some extent. My loose understanding was that by reducing the line thickness, the 10/11/12 lines would not intersect and create "connectors" where the scoring could get very "grey" in some groups.


Well said, I couldn't agree more; the only problem I see with the smaller rings is more kick outs at closer targets. I know last year I probably lost several points at big shoots from pin nocks. I shot a turkey once hit another arrow in the 11 ring distroying the other guys arrow but kicking mine out to a 5. I know it's part of the game but I feel the rule penalizing a person for a good shot and also taking 6 points off my score. I realize you have to draw the line in the sand somewhere but if the arrow is un-shootable the guy that hit the arrow should get the higher points. These tubing only rules were made up before pin nocks and super fat arrows were made. Smaller circles to me will equal more kickouts..


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

the creme will rise to the top, like it or not, want to here my opinion, mckenzie needs to get on with making better quality targets, they sure have the quality price on them but the target is just not up to the quality it needs to be, as far as 12, 14 I dont care and an eariler post about hard quartering shots is trashing this targets especially for those who purchase them and set them in a broadside set up as the vital turns to mush, I think they know the target wont hold up, and if asa needs a good azz chewing it needs to be over target setting, when the 10 ring is made bigger then you turn the target quartering what did you gain? poor target setting as I see it and the higher the class the harder they turn them, equaling trash targets


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3Dblackncamo said:


> the creme will rise to the top, like it or not, want to here my opinion, mckenzie needs to get on with making better quality targets, they sure have the quality price on them but the target is just not up to the quality it needs to be, as far as 12, 14 I dont care and an eariler post about hard quartering shots is trashing this targets especially for those who purchase them and set them in a broadside set up as the vital turns to mush, I think they know the target wont hold up, and if asa needs a good azz chewing it needs to be over target setting, when the 10 ring is made bigger then you turn the target quartering what did you gain? poor target setting as I see it and the higher the class the harder they turn them, equaling trash targets


I don't think the quality is the problem. Design maybe. I believe automan26 hit on the subject a while back and I remembered McKenzies older cores. Take all the foam off the point zone and you can't shoot through the core! I still have a large ram in the backyard. Foam gone, weather beaten to death and the core still stops arrows and a Xitch to pull from. If I were to rebuild the target, foam over the core the arrow would slow down give more friendly pullable arrow. So a new design may help on larger targets. Just throwin' stuff out; say a center insert made with a core or a core of old in the target and outside foam replacements plates? Thinner plates, less expensive, 1/3 or 1/4 the price of insert? If so I wouldn't care if the plate had to be glued in. Flexibable as today's foam is a ridged plate could be pressed in.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

The funny part is that many of the people complaining about the quality of the McKenzie targets are the same ones that complained about IBO switching to Reinhart.


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## bowhunter891 (Oct 6, 2009)

How much is it to shoot in a ASA tourney?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

bowhunter891 said:


> How much is it to shoot in a ASA tourney?


from 250 for pro TO 30 for bow novice..... just depends on the class. 

If you go to asaarchery.com and go to shoot site registration it will give you all the prices.


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

The two things that are bad calls on the target issue. Number one, getting rid of the Ibex after just one year. A whole lot of people and clubs (my club included) purchased that target so our ASA shooting memebers could shoot at it. Not to mention, it is one of the coolest looking targets on the ASA ranges. Number two, calling the upper 12. If that holds in Open A it is a bad call. I for one like trying to blow crap up and squeeze in an extra arrow as the 5th shooter in the group with 3 in and one close. Either way, I'm still shooting ASA cause they use the better targets (IMHO) and run the better tournament.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bustn'nocks said:


> The two things that are bad calls on the target issue. Number one, getting rid of the Ibex after just one year. A whole lot of people and clubs (my club included) purchased that target so our ASA shooting memebers could shoot at it. Not to mention, it is one of the coolest looking targets on the ASA ranges.


It's still a target to shoot. So clubs aren't really out anything and who knows, next year it could be back. I really don't know how they chose targets, but probably McKenzie has something to do with it. I sort of disbelief that the horns at $50 was the cause for elimination as I can't believe those cost $50.


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## Hoosier bowman (Jan 10, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Well, I must be the minority but IMO, that sucks....


X2 I agree.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> It's still a target to shoot. So clubs aren't really out anything and who knows, next year it could be back. I really don't know how they chose targets, but probably McKenzie has something to do with it. I sort of disbelief that the horns at $50 was the cause for elimination as I can't believe those cost $50.


you dont have to believe.....but its straight fact


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> you dont have to believe.....but its straight fact


Mercy! You could darn near buy a replacement center.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bustn'nocks said:


> The two things that are bad calls on the target issue. Number one, getting rid of the Ibex after just one year. A whole lot of people and clubs (my club included) purchased that target so our ASA shooting memebers could shoot at it. Not to mention, it is one of the coolest looking targets on the ASA ranges. Number two, calling the upper 12. If that holds in Open A it is a bad call. I for one like trying to blow crap up and squeeze in an extra arrow as the 5th shooter in the group with 3 in and one close. Either way, I'm still shooting ASA cause they use the better targets (IMHO) and run the better tournament.


Nothing says your are required to shoot at the upper 12. It is your choice. If you want to jam your arrow into a full 12 ring there is nothing stopping you but in the end you will lose points doing so.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Personally, I'm liking these new rules!!! The 14's are gone yeah!! Better lines on the targets to lower arguments on scoring...yaaay! And being able to call your shot on which 12 your shooting at, even better! 
I do want clarification though.....if I'm understanding this correctly, you can decide and call your shot at the upper 12 REGARDLESS if it's "covered" up? That was a lot of confusion at Metropolis last year, trying to agree if it was "covered" or not. If I'm right on this, I'm a happy camper!

I'm even more happy in the fact that Morelli is not!! :laugh:


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

rattlinman said:


> Personally, I'm liking these new rules!!! The 14's are gone yeah!! Better lines on the targets to lower arguments on scoring...yaaay! And being able to call your shot on which 12 your shooting at, even better!
> I do want clarification though.....if I'm understanding this correctly, you can decide and call your shot at the upper 12 REGARDLESS if it's "covered" up? That was a lot of confusion at Metropolis last year, trying to agree if it was "covered" or not. If I'm right on this, I'm a happy camper!
> 
> I'm even more happy in the fact that Morelli is not!! :laugh:


 yes...you can call upper 12 on every shot you make..if that is something you want to do..


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Bring back the IBEX for the 2014 season please!!!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like my Ibex. One of the bad things about Delta buying out McKenzie, I was worried about them not coming out with new targets that looked like an original McKenzie. The Ibex was pretty good.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

rattlinman said:


> Personally, I'm liking these new rules!!! The 14's are gone yeah!! Better lines on the targets to lower arguments on scoring...yaaay! And being able to call your shot on which 12 your shooting at, even better!
> I do want clarification though.....if I'm understanding this correctly, you can decide and call your shot at the upper 12 REGARDLESS if it's "covered" up? That was a lot of confusion at Metropolis last year, trying to agree if it was "covered" or not. If I'm right on this, I'm a happy camper!
> 
> I'm even more happy in the fact that Morelli is not!! :laugh:





bhtr3d said:


> yes...you can call upper 12 on every shot you make..if that is something you want to do..


Thanks! I believe that more that makes up for the 14 ring removal! Looking forward to the 2013 season!!!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

rattlinman said:


> I'm even more happy in the fact that Morelli is not!! :laugh:


Well, glad I'm on your mind.... What did I do to deserve that?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Well, glad I'm on your mind.... What did I do to deserve that?


:wink: He's probably happy that you won't be beating him down....................by as many points. But a beating is beating whether you are beat by 30 or 26.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> :wink: He's probably happy that you won't be beating him down....................by as many points. But a beating is beating whether you are beat by 30 or 26.


Are you in K45 next year? If so, I'd be watching for the short draw guy with a Supra.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> We are very proud to be able to continue our relationship with McKenzie. We are working on determining the final costs and process for reserving and buying the tournament ranges (and we are very close to be able to keep the pricing at the 2012 level with the help of McKenzie.) All 2013 McKenzie ASA Pro/Am Targets feature the E-Z Flex Foam core.
> 
> These 17 targets will be at all Pro/Ams:
> 
> ...


y isn't there any turkeys?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

baird794 said:


> y isn't there any turkeys?


You seriously didn't ask that.....lol....we all know ASA 3D shooters would year up any(brand) of target...(waiting on the posts on that)....LOL


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> You seriously didn't ask that.....lol....we all know ASA 3D shooters would year up any(brand) of target...(waiting on the posts on that)....LOL


The 12 ring is too small for 4 arrows....


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> Nothing says your are required to shoot at the upper 12. It is your choice. If you want to jam your arrow into a full 12 ring there is nothing stopping you but in the end you will lose points doing so.


Exactly why I always tend to donate to the pot and don't have ASA sending me a check after a tournament. Never said it was a good strategy, just more fun :wink:


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> The 12 ring is too small for 4 arrows....


Not true. I've seen 3 full bores, a fat boy and an easton axis all in a 12 ring of a blesbok. I'm trying to find the pic. I'll post it if I can dig it up.


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

Babyk said:


> Well once again I stand corrected


You stand up when you're on AT???


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

bustn'nocks said:


> Not true. I've seen 3 full bores, a fat boy and an easton axis all in a 12 ring of a blesbok. I'm trying to find the pic. I'll post it if I can dig it up.


Last i checked the blesbok has a "slightly" bigger 12 than a turkey

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

baird794 said:


> y isn't there any turkeys?


because I don't like to shoot at turkeys.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

carlosii said:


> because I don't like to shoot at turkeys.


They would call that suicide right , carlossi?????


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Are you in K45 next year? If so, I'd be watching for the short draw guy with a Supra.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Probably K45. But I kind of would like to try K50 or maybe Seniors....... The problem with K50 is the entry fee and the problem with Seniors is that I'm not good enough.

:mg: Is there another "short guy with a Supra" out there? There must be because I know you aren't talking about me!


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