# Bare shaft is killing me. Help



## bonecollector66 (Mar 2, 2011)

try a stiffer spine ??


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## bonecollector66 (Mar 2, 2011)

or weaker ?


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

They don't make a stiffer pro tour. I am running a freak show rest and have the rest back pretty far and only about an inch of shaft out front. I can't cut anymore off to stiffen it up being a 31 inch draw. I have moved the rest up to a half inch in all directions, played with nock height, added and took away yoke twist, and they all still hit low right. If I make any adjustments in the wrong direction, nock is further left and point gets further right


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## squid013 (Jan 12, 2014)

Cut it down sone more. I run 29.5 on my arrows with a 31.25 draw


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Yup. Got one cut down to the same 29.5 that I will try tomorrow. Will have to love the freak show behind the riser now. Wanted to see if I could make it work where it's at but guess not. I will report back tomorrown


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Move not love. Damn phone


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

inline6power said:


> Ok so playing and getting my podium ready for outdoor season, I have a tuning question. Playing with bare shaft tuning and having one hell of a time bringing in the bare shaft back to the left to match flechings. Have tried rest, yikes, sync in and out, you name it. I can make it worse but this is about as good as I can get. It's not grip causing this or release. Looks the same coming out of my hooter shooter. Arrows are 30 inch 380 spine x10s with 100 grain tungsten tips. Pulling 52 lbs and draw is dead at 31. What would you guys suggest just by looking at the pic?
> View attachment 2164342


I would set the rest smack dab on center and put a twist or two on the left side of the yoke.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Have you checked the index of the nocks? I shot the pro tours for a bit last year and I remember the pin nocks shooting very differently if they all weren't indexed the same way. I also had to trim mine down to an inch in front of the blade before they'd fly true.

Are you shooting more than one bare shaft to confirm results? You could be chasing your tail over one cranky arrow...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

.380 spine on a more that 31 inch long arrow might be a little soft at 52 lbs. (assuming you're using full length shafts ?). 
an easy way to find out is simply to turn the bow down some more and try bare shafting, again. I realize you probably are close to lowest draw weight at 52 lbs, (assuming 50-60 lb. bow), but if you see an improvement, there's your answer.
I know, a lot if assuming, but that's about all a guy can do, here.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

On my PCE, I need a perfectly neutral grip and a pure shot break to minimize nock left on triple X or CX 27s. This is the first bow I've had with a nock left issue and a right POI. You may find that adding more top cam lean will help a lot until u see the bend in the string and cable at brace and say "***!?"
Basically, I left enough top cam lean to get it good at 10 yards and not wear the serving. The blade is set up pretty close to center and the scope, string and arrow are reasonably lined up. A little work with bottom cam spacing might help but I haven't touched it. The Hoyt or Bow Tuning forums might have some good info as we can't be the only two with nock left spiral x target rigs.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't bare shaft tune to save my life, but Binary cam, no yokes. After about a good 10 days of every bad attempts I gave up and went with a short distance French tune procedure (10 feet and 30 yards). Placed 2nd in a 3D the next weekend. Shot it all last year and accuracy good out to 60 yards (never shot farther). Might have been better if I French tuned at a longer distance, 50 to 60 yards. ASA, Super Senior, my max distance is 40 yards. I shot Field in 2004 and 2005 and did well with standard French tune (9 feet and 55 yards)....

Best I could do at 20 yards. Close, but no cigar. Results of short distance French tune - bow still shooting great.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

When I get a consistent left or right like this it's usually cam/wheel lean on one or the other, or both, cams/wheels. What I do in that case is confirm that I've 90'ed out the wheel lean as close as I can get it at full draw (never mind what it is at brace height). I do this with a DIY gauge made of a stick and double stick tape. Then, I go back to centershot with the rest and that usually nulls this out, or gets variation down into the noise of a bad shot.

That's what I'd do first in this case, assuming you're not underspined.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> Best I could do at 20 yards. Close, but no cigar. Results of short distance French tune - bow still shooting great.


To me, tho, that's still a really good bareshaft at 20 yards. I shoot very low draw weights and commonly that much is down in the noise of er, "variations" in my release. I'm a UN-top-most-wanted-list tuning Nazi and even I will be ok with a bareshaft that close at my super low draw weights.... It'll be forgiving enough to not effect the results...

Yeah I'd go back and forth to the bow press for maybe a half hour on something like this, but I'd let it go with a small mental note at that point and go shoot....

LS


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

This may have already been done, but have you checked for clearance across the arrow rest and cables? Spray foot powder on the arrow and see if it's hitting the blade or any other area like the cables. Also, what setting is the cable rod on? 

And check the pin nocks. Sometimes they'll be seated off center some, or just a bad pin nock and cause a weird reaction. If you have another bareshaft shoot it and see if you get the same results. If you don't, change out the pin nock.


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Shooting 3 different bare shafts to confirm. Using pin nocks that are all indexed. Arrow length is 30 inches from tip of nock to end of carbon. Took ALL lean out of cams and they are dead straight. Slide rod is moved all the way in towards the arrow. Have shot it through a hooter shooter to take out my grip to make sure I wasn't griping badly and it hits in the same exact spot. I have added 6 twist to left yoke and took the same out of the right and it still impacts in the same spot. Lower the lbs and it goes a tad further right and lower. Raise the lbs and it does the same. Seems nothing will bring it back in left. I can smash arrows and I could call it good but I know I can make it better as far as bare shaft goes I am just stuck on what to try next


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Have you shot through paper? I assume you are getting a tear left, but?


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Yes. Getting a 10 o clock one inch tear.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

my arrow looked exactly light that in the picture and I sent the pic to Nut&Bolts. 
I am a Lefty and he replied with a few short statements- 

_Simple- 
draw length too long
stance
maybe leaning backwards

Maybe the usual GOTS to have string on my nose
so
nock ends up waaaaay to far back on your head for YOUR ANCHOR

Elbow too far behind your head
You might fix it with a simple stance adjustment_

I adjusted my draw stop just a hair shorter and worked on my stance and I busted my bareshaft into my flethced arrow at 20 yards. 
Again, I am a lefty but hopefully you can get the an idea of some changed to look at.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

try a lighter point to stiffen the arrows a bit
MLC


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Is this the 37 or 40? I read in the other forum most are getting the same as you on the 40.


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

this is a 40 with spiral pros


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

mdewitt71 said:


> my arrow looked exactly light that in the picture and I sent the pic to Nut&Bolts.
> I am a Lefty and he replied with a few short statements-
> 
> _Simple-
> ...


Yep, the bolded was my next suggestion once he ruled out the normal variables. Either bow DL is a tad long or DLoop is a tad long - that bareshaft isn't that far off, so it may just be a micro adjustment to get it in line.


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

it shoots the same through a hooter shooter. no elbow behind head on that machine lol. i just read the other thread and it seems ALOT of the podium 40s with spirals have this problem


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Flip the spacers on the bottom cam.


inline6power said:


> it shoots the same through a hooter shooter. no elbow behind head on that machine lol. i just read the other thread and it seems ALOT of the podium 40s with spirals have this problem


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Do the easy, non-permanent things first. 
- Reduce DW as much as you can. 
- Shorten DL by 1/2"

Both of these effectively stiffen the spine. Since you are getting the same results from you HS, spine may be an issue.

Check for face contact.

Check to see if your rest is bent or twisted. I screwed up States one year because I didn't notice my launcher blade was slightly twisted by an amount that was hard to even see.

Good luck and let us know what you work out.

Allen


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

inline6power said:


> it shoots the same through a hooter shooter. no elbow behind head on that machine lol. i just read the other thread and it seems ALOT of the podium 40s with spirals have this problem


As a diagnostic, the next thing I'd do then is move the rest (to the left in this case) a hair bit and see if the bare shaft responds. If it does respond, set it and leave it unless it's way way out there. If it doesn't respond, something else is going on, but that'd be the next thing I would try personally. Knocking point can also contribute if you're also getting a nock-high along with...

LS


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

inline6power said:


> it shoots the same through a hooter shooter. no elbow behind head on that machine lol. i just read the other thread and it seems ALOT of the podium 40s with spirals have this problem


I see you found it. As far as long distance shooting I always find a little high left hand tear groups better for me.


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

It groups just fine out to 100. I am just a perfectionist and know there is a little left on the table and want to try to get all the forgiveness o can lol


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

inline6power said:


> Yes. Getting a 10 o clock one inch tear.


Then I would put twists in the right side of the yoke and take some out of the left... one at a time. This should reduce the tear. Nocking point may be low also, but make sure there is no clearance or interference problems.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Perhaps limb deflection imbalance? I've never seen this with Hoyt, but it's pretty common with PSE.

I was getting even worse problems than you with a PSE Supra. I cut up a 20 oz pepsi bottle and used little pieces of the plastic for limb shims. Just put 1 or 2 shims at the limb pocket end of the limb to slightly increase the stiffness of the limb. In your case if I remember correctly, you would try shimming the lower right limb. See if that helps or makes it worse. Obviously if it makes it worse, try the left lower limb.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

They say bare shaft tuning demands the best of form.....I don't know....

Cam lean...
So the want is the cam straight with the bow string with bow at rest.
Or the want is the cam straight with the bow string at full draw.

This isn't helping a bit, but..........
My old 3D bow that did well in Field, Outdoor and indoor, nasty for both wheel and cam lean. And pics of just how well it would group/shoot. This bow was French tuned (9 feet and 60 yards). How well did this bow do? Of all the bows I've owned it's the only one I've kept and hangs on the wall out of respect... Got it down 3 years ago to compete in a 20 yard Darchery (301) Event. I won with 7 shots at it's 3D speed of 295 fps.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Not to be argumentative but I disagree with some of the solutions offered above.

Tail left is typically a stiff spine on compounds with release aids. My gut says this isn't stiff.....and that the OP is dealing with a pure nock travel issue.

There are lots of ways to tune out the nock travel...and to tune the setup so that the point stays in front of the nock.

To fix a tail left, the rest would typically be moved IN (right for a RH shooter).

To fix a tail left, the user would typically induce more pre-lean into the top cam by twisting the left yoke, and removing from the right yoke. 

To fix a tail left, the user would typically induce more pre-lean into the bottom cam by rearranging shims such that the bottom cam moves to the left (add material to the right side, remove from the left). 

To fix a tail left, the user could also induce more side pull with the cable rod.

Since the results are consistent with the Hooter Shooter, I'm ignoring form issues above but tail lefts can also be too much thumb side grip pressure.

Lastly, off a blade rest, I do agree that a tail high, or high left is often thought of as ideal from grouping. I tend to think of it more about how and wear my arrow leaves the blade. I think my best downrange performance comes when powder indicates the arrow is leaving the blade, or is up on one the outside fork before it gets to the fletching. I do not want to see tracks all the way to the nock.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Doh. I reported the wrong movement of the rest, I believe. Stand corrected....

LS


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Swapped spacers on the bottom cam and it brought it in. Now need to fine tune up and down


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Then I would put twists in the right side of the yoke and take some out of the left... one at a time. This should reduce the tear. Nocking point may be low also, but make sure there is no clearance or interference problems.


Disregard this as you have tail left, not tail right... brain fart on my part. You said 10 o'clock my brain thought 2 o'clock.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

inline6power said:


> Swapped spacers on the bottom cam and it brought it in. Now need to fine tune up and down


Kinda hate to say it, but that actually looks worse to me. I assume that's how it went into the bale?

LS


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

unclejane said:


> Kinda hate to say it, but that actually looks worse to me. I assume that's how it went into the bale?
> 
> LS


thats how it went in yes. i am trying to get the point of impact the same and will worry about tail left right up and down after i can get the points to group together


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> They say bare shaft tuning demands the best of form.....I don't know....


Yep, it does and a high holding weight helps quite a bit too. That's why at my current draw weights I don't finesse it past about 20 yards. If it stays in the gold at 20 I'm done, unless/until I'm able to shoot more weight than I do now...


> Cam lean...
> So the want is the cam straight with the bow string with bow at rest.
> Or the want is the cam straight with the bow string at full draw.


For me and my bows I've always gotten best results with the cams parallel with the riser at full draw. Even on my Hoyt wheel bow that gives a good bareshaft at 20 yards with the rest at either the measured or "TLAR" centershot setting. When I yoke tune I just end up there anyway, so I just set this now to begin with and go from there.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

inline6power said:


> thats how it went in yes. i am trying to get the point of impact the same and will worry about tail left right up and down after i can get the points to group together


Ok, yeah the goal tho is the shaft parallel or close to it with the fletched at the bale. That is the bareshaft should look just like your fletched in the bale (and bullet hole through the paper if you check it with a paper tune). The coincident POI in this case is just fortuitous - once you straighten the bareshaft out, the POI of both the fletched and bare will move a little to the left, with all the shafts grouping together reliably and "straight" in the bale.

So I'd suggest going back in the other direction on your adjustment as the "azimuth" looks to have been made a little worse by your last adjustment... Which is good; that means the bow is responding and you're adjusting the right things....

LS


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Have you spine indexed? Whenever I have that result, it's just a matter of spinning the nocks.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

unclejane said:


> Kinda hate to say it, but that actually looks worse to me. I assume that's how it went into the bale?
> 
> LS


Nock angle is an indicator of what is to come as distance increases. So, he did move the POI but is still showing that a tail left condition exists....only to a lesser extent.


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

all true but thsi is the first time we have made an adjustment and the bow actually responded to it. it brough it in a full 3 inches just by playing with spacers in the bottom cam when before this, yokes, rest, ect would not show a change at all on poi at the bale with the bare shaft in relationship to the fletched.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> Nock angle is an indicator of what is to come as distance increases. So, he did move the POI but is still showing that a tail left condition exists....only to a lesser extent.


Yep. And the POI for the fletched will move a little more to the left as the left-tail is dialed out. The bareshaft POI will be further right generally, but will quickly tighten and finally meet up with the fletched once the launch is straight. Then they'll all group together all the time on good shots....

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

inline6power said:


> all true but thsi is the first time we have made an adjustment and the bow actually responded to it. it brough it in a full 3 inches just by playing with spacers in the bottom cam when before this, yokes, rest, ect would not show a change at all on poi at the bale with the bare shaft in relationship to the fletched.


As long as a) it's responding and b) you're not running out of adjustment, that means things are progressing ok....

LS


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

inline6power said:


> all true but thsi is the first time we have made an adjustment and the bow actually responded to it. it brough it in a full 3 inches just by playing with spacers in the bottom cam when before this, yokes, rest, ect would not show a change at all on poi at the bale with the bare shaft in relationship to the fletched.


In my experience... Non-responsive to adjustments means something is overriding your adjustment. Your experience seems to be like mine with many hybrids... If the bottom cam is fighting against you, all the other adjustments together can't overcome it. Once you neutralize it, all the other adjustments work as they should. You've definitely made progress.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Ding Ding Ding. Had to do the same thing with my PCE. Glad to see the adjustment helped and you're getting it dialed in.


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm with ya brother!! I just got my PodiumX40, SpiraL Pro's. I have been pulling my hair out!! Bare shaft is exactly the same as yours!! Except I was able to get the height the same, but not the left and right. Stays right no matter what!! I had my yoke so twisted, that my top cam looked like it was going to derail, still right!! cut my arrow down as much as possible, no difference!! 1" left tear in paper, all I can do is make it worse!!! I thought about the spacers, but haven't played with them, yet! I talked to well known Hoyt Pros yesterday, they said go weaker on the shaft. Seems like this a common issue with the 40, the 37's are fine. My nock is kicked left just like yours!! I will be looking at the spacers tomorrow!! It's not form, unless everyone that is experiencing this has from issues??


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Totally agree. Seems only the 40 is having these issues. I was able to get mine just as you say. Same level as fletched but it's 1.5 inches to the right. Have not been able to get it back. One shot went even but low which I posted. Since then, all are right again


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

I set my top cam straight at full draw, and my rest in the center, yesterday. Then shot an indoor round last night. It shot good. Not sure how it's gonna do long range??


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't think you will ever get a stock Podium X40 to properly bareshaft. Your problem is common to the X40 in particular. You have noticed that the string doesn't run straight down the center of the riser. You have noticed that it can be walk back tuned and Modified French tuned, but it can't do perfect holes in paper. The best it will paper tune will be a 5/16" left tear after a long session of walk back and cable adjustment. I've been working on mine for four days, but I always end up with the nocked arrow pointing right of the stabilizer, wild bare shaft and small left tear. Everything suggested here has been tried by me and a lot of other sharp people with no complete success. Until I replace this bow with another brand, I'll have to be satisfied with close enough. It was bought to be my dream bow. It's a nightmare.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Inline6power, I just read through all three pages and to me you have gotten yourself into a bermuda triangle of tuning where you are letting certain decisions dictate your outcome in a negative way. 

First off is your perception of getting the same point of impact from your bare shaft and fletched arrows, this is a very dangerous method because you are looking to change the point of impact instead of looking to clean up poor arrow flight. My suggestion is to put your fletched arrows away for a while and only shoot your bare shafts and get your bow to where it is shooting them perfectly and then you can move on from there.

Secondly, i think you need to push the reset button on your bow right now and have a fresh go at it. Here is what i would do with your bow if I was there to tune it.

1. I would put it to factory specs and Cam sync it perfectly and I would put the top cam to zero cam lean at full draw.

2. I would then put the rest in the center of the shelf 

3. I would then shoot the bare shaft through paper at 8 feet and move the d-loop up and down a little until I found the spot where there was no vertical tears

NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART

4. I would before moving on move the spacers on the lower cam and try all of the positions of that cam and see what it does to the tears and pick the one that produces the best tears without doing any other tuning at all. Only moving the spacers. This is so important to learn how your bow is reacting to the movement of the cam on the axle before you start yoke tuning or anything else so that you don't get lost, you aren't looking for perfection in this step only learning and picking the best location so that you can yoke tune from there. 

5. Now you are ready to yoke tune the bow by shooting at 8 then 12 then 20 feet and then back to 20 yards through the paper tuner and twisting the yoke on the side of the tear to control the tears.

6. Done.


To me that little method right now for you will be a reset button to your tuning that you need and give you direction instead of wandering around in the bermuda triangle and you are going to hopefully get the results you desire.

Now for me when i do this type of tuning and get my bare shafts to shoot bullet holes at 20 yards my arrows always impact with the fletched ones without exception and the reason why is because the fletching isn't having to correct any poor arrow flight and it can just stabilize the arrow.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

That's the best I can get my podium to do as well a 1 inch ten o'clock tear.I have played with it swapped can spacers retuned advanced cams.played with the rest done all I know to do. And I have come to realize I either got one that just won't bullet or its gone take a super duper bow tech to figure it out.it is shooting a pretty arrow.I guess its something we are gone have to live with


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## inline6power (May 27, 2010)

Padgett said:


> Inline6power, I just read through all three pages and to me you have gotten yourself into a bermuda triangle of tuning where you are letting certain decisions dictate your outcome in a negative way.
> 
> First off is your perception of getting the same point of impact from your bare shaft and fletched arrows, this is a very dangerous method because you are looking to change the point of impact instead of looking to clean up poor arrow flight. My suggestion is to put your fletched arrows away for a while and only shoot your bare shafts and get your bow to where it is shooting them perfectly and then you can move on from there.
> 
> ...


Thanks bud. I will try this. I am back to shooting my pro comp xl so I have plenty of time to play with this podium. Will give it ago


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Um, these bows have been out for a while and I know people that shoot them and they are tuning just like any other hoyt target bow. More than likely the tuning tricks that you use are not allowing you to affect the arrow flight the way you want to and you need to think outside your normal tuning tricks to continue moving the arrow.

I have had this happen many times over the years and in the end I have had to add tuning tricks to my resume, i just had my favorite bow the bowtech specialist that i have shot since late 2010 totally mess with me and no matter what I did with my normal approaches would the tear change. I went ahead and used something else that I usually avoid and it tuned very easily and proved to be a awesome little addition to my bag of tricks.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I read over that post where I gave you a plan to follow and I still like it but the problem is that tuning a bow is all about having a tool box full of tricks and knowing which trick is the one to use and which trick should stay in the box for another day. To me though starting with a bow that is set up clean to factory specs and synced with no cam lean at full draw is a very good starting point to go from and hopefully not get lost. 

One thing i can't stress enough is being able to study the effects of the tuning efforts and be able to choose to continue or stop and go back to factory specs and then do something else. Sometimes you are twisting or moving stuff and it isn't affecting the arrow tear in the paper because something else is overpowering it but if you leave it there and try something else now it becomes a big problem. That is why I do things and then go back to my original setup and then do something else.


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

I just got back from the pro shop;

Previously, I had tuned the lean out of the cam as much as possible and started tuning from there. He left my good timing alone, put lean back onto the cam to get the resting point back to center and nearly perfectly in line with the stabilizer while getting a quarter inch (5/16") high left tear. He then tried a bare shaft on paper and got a bullet hole, which he promptly said, "it wasn't necessary, but I said it couldn't be done". He then placed a ridge on the left side of the grip, and this took nearly all of the high left tear out of my shot to reduce it to the slightest detectable high left tear that I could tell...through reduced torque from my thick thumb muscle.

Now, I'm instructed to align the elevation slide on the sight with the shot at various ranges and not to the string or to the riser, and then level the scope. Then sight in marks for yardages afterward.

He didn't move cam spacers or add shims, only adjusted the yoke to bring the center shot (best tear) to the middle of the stabilizer, which brought my quarter inch high left tear away from the right side of the rest window. Now my scope can be adjusted onto the hit point.

He said, the tear is not the goal. Alignment of the string to the riser is not the goal. Zero cam lean is not the goal. Precise timing is not the goal. Alignment of the arrow to the stabilizer is not the goal. Alignment of the sight elevation track to the riser or the string is not the goal. The hit is the goal. The closest and most consistent hit I can adjust these things to get. If I aim for the goal, these things will be close to spec, but won't be precisely spec.

This crap is all too mystical to me.

I'm going to finish sighting in to see what I have. Will report back.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

So basically he just grabbed the bow torqued it so the string aligns in the cam tracks and let'er go. Bullet hole and blamed it on your grip. Classic bow shop fix. 

Sorry to say this but the bow sounds like a lemon. I bet you don't have to tune your other bow like this!


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

I can say I feel your pain... This site is nice to get advice, but it is all worthless when it comes to these bows... You can tell from the posts above who has actually worked with one....

My experience has been. Teal Podium 40 arrived in November. It was the best holding and shooting bow I have had my hands on, but it would not respond to tuning input at all. NONE Long story short is that I shot my best indoor scores with this bow and placed well with it, but it would not tune no matter how many of my buddies and "experts" looked at it.

Black Podium 40 Arrived 2 weeks ago. This one RESPONDS, but still is grip sensitive to throw a left tear. It can be shot with a perfect bullet hole and hole for hole bare shaft, but it requires a slight tweak to my grip. I am not a fan of changing my grip right now, so left high tear set during walk back and group tuning will be its future. It is just nice to know that I have a bow that will tune and the other one was the bow and not me... 

My suggestion is to send it to Hoyt. Have them look it over as I think they have found something to tweak on them. The new strings are already much better (nock fit) than what I got in November, so they are listening and working with them as they produce them. These bows are shooters for sure and worth the time to send yours in.


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Mestang99 
Could you attach pics of your new PX40 string alignment to the riser?
And maybe pics of axle spacer configuration? 
I'm curious to see what they did differently. 

Mine was received mid Nov. Still adjusting my elevation track to try to match the fall of my arrow. I'm sure I'm going to have to tilt my bow top to the right and tilt the elevation left to align the arrow at various distances to the movement of the elevation slide.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

very gently torque the bow to the right. You should not even be able to tell that you are torquing the bow. Take a shot and look how the bare shaft hits the target.

Next draw the bow and let your draw elbow swing out to the side and drop a little low. Again shoot the bow and see how the bare shaft hits the target.

Don't pull into the wall and take a shot.

I have a bow that all of the above things severely affect how the bare shaft hits the target.

By doing these things I can walk my bare shaft 12" left and 12" right of the 10 ring.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

just curious...

if you use two arrows on the top cam...one on the right, other on the left of the string (pinch the string at the cam)....let them point to the nock....at brace- where is the loop?

seems every bow I have that there is severe nock kick, the loop is way to one side instead of smack in the middle.


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Fully tuned and shooting dead-on...
Note: I am not the original author of this thread, but I had identical issues with my PodiumX40 and posted my replys earlier in this thread. 


After the owner of the Pro Shop put some lean back into my top cam by yoke adjustment, I took it home to sight it in. I squared my scope bubble to my elevation track.
I perfectly leveled my elevation track to my string. And double checked that against my scope bubble. 


My sight housing had to be slid from full-in, all the way back to the middle of the shot window and aligned on center of the stabilizer. My elevation marks were still working at 20 yards, so I adjusted windage for 20 yards in 2 shots. Went to 40 yards and placed a fair group tightly wraping around the x spot. See picture below...pic didn't upload.


I then went to 70 yards and after chasing 3-4 hits to the right with my windage adjustment, I shot this well centered group with one arrow on the x spot. See picture below. ...picture didn't upload.


The test and confirmation that the new tuning worked was when I went back to 20 yards to make sure that I was not hitting left or right after setting windage at 70. I got a nice tight group on and around the X at 20 without adjusting windage. See picture below...picture didn't upload.


On my draw board, there isn't much lean on my cam, but it is more than I had it adjusted down to previously. Just leaning enough to get the string "almost" aligned to the riser center, and certainly enough to get the nocking point perfectly behind the center shot and inline with the stabilizer. 


My PodiumX40 has never shot so well or had an arrow pointing inline with the stabilizer before. I understand that this should have been adjusted at least this well from the day I picked it up. My point is that this bow needed a little lean in the cam to get best results. It shoots a slight high left tear in order to get best results. It didn't have to have spacers moved or shims installed. The solution was turning, but not to spec or perfect bullet holes, but rather tuning for results. The Pro Shop owner said that most Hoyt target bows will tear slightly high left when tuned for best results and greatest forgiveness. If your form is poorly trained and full of torque, it might be a quarter inch high left tear.


Maybe, one day when I'm a bit more experienced with the mechanics of Hoyts, I'll try to perfectly align the string to the riser without any cam lean. You would expect Hoyt to do this at the factory from the beginning. I understand that strings stretch and tune changes while in the box. Do you think this is the case with the early run of PodiumX40's ?


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## Scottso (Nov 2, 2010)

Not just the 40, my 37 is doing the same thing, it's sitting in the corner of my room getting dusty right now. I tried everything like you, I'm going to put the old spirals on it next! I think the adjustable cams for the middle or lower DL's have way to much nock travel because all the extra string on the cam (my 37 at 28DL has a 59" string, that's nuts!!). Slow-mo it on the hooter shooter you'll see it drop bad on the shot, which I think is making it jump left off the rest, you can move the rest all the way to the left and it'll be the same no change at all. That's why if you look at any of the pros shooting the 37 or 40 they are all running crazy nock high, like 1/2" or more, to help with the travel. sorry for the typos


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

It is a shame that bow companies are making bows that wont tune. I have one that wont tune. I can make it shoot by intentionally torquing the grip.

If these bows had to tune in a hooter shooter before they could be sold maybe then we could get some better service from the manufacturers.


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## Scottso (Nov 2, 2010)

And if you send it back to Hoyt they just tell you it's fine!!!


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

What happens if you raise the nock a little bit? Does the left right issue change any? Over the years I have noticed if the nock is a little low it will cause these issues with out showing a low tear in paper or a high bare shaft.It seems to ride the launcher down a little bit then jumps sideways at launch, I have seen this with drop aways also. My method is to set the nock high enough so I know it is higher than a level launch (1/2 inch up tear) then work on left right. Once left right is good then ease the nock or loop down a little at the time. Might be worth a try.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jim p said:


> It is a shame that bow companies are making bows that wont tune. I have one that wont tune. I can make it shoot by intentionally torquing the grip.
> 
> If these bows had to tune in a hooter shooter before they could be sold maybe then we could get some better service from the manufacturers.


I've been shooting compounds since 1999. Really heavy starting in 2000. I don't how many bows I've own or worked on at the shop, but all tuned. If it didn't tune there was something wrong with the bow. And then I had bows come in the shop that I thought wouldn't keep a arrow on the practice wall that shot great. So if your bow had a problem you have to track it down. Can't find, send to the factory. They can fast check a riser for being out of whack in a heart beat. And factory aren't perfect. Worse case I had stemmed from a bad bearing that no one could find until the sport department store manage got ticked at me. He couldn't find anything and the bow still would launch a arrow high and right. Adjust for it and later it'd shoot low and left. He checked it again and couldn't find anything. So it he sent in to the factory. I ain't saying what factory because I shot many of these bows and they all shot great. So my bow came back and it still would throw a arrow off. Took it back to the store again and the manager got bent out of shape. He had the lower cam sitting on the toe of his shoe and holding it by the upper limb and cam. He just about screamed there was nothing wrong with my bow. As he blew off he picked my bow pretty hard, pulling on the cam. One of the top bearings fell to pieces right there. Yep, tiny ball bearings bouncing all over and not only that, all were rusty and inside the bearing race was rusty. Brand new bow. I forget how I worded it, but something like when you get my bow fixed that has nothing wrong with it, call me. Now, not only did my bow get fixed, the factory did a total upgrade to the next year's new double cams. Never cost me a thing and the factory even sent me some "goodies." Bow shot great after the repairs......


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Sonny, do you remember a Pearson Marksman with legend cams? If you want to refresh your memory take a look at one of my post from oct 6 2014 about me not being able to bare shaft tune my bow. Reply no. 4 is your reply with a picture.

So I say that there are bows that just wont tune. 

I am not trying to be a jerk. I have been wrong before, I maybe wrong now and I will be wrong in the future.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Jim, give me a link. And if you think bare shaft tuning is the only tuning......Well, you've got some learning.

Bare shaft tuning....April of 2014 I spent the better part of two weeks trying to bare shaft tune me Pearson MarXman. 3 arrow rests, 2nd set of limbs and it still wouldn't bare shaft tune. Sent it back to factory for a check up once. Nothing wrong with it. And isn't anything wrong with it. I threw bare shaft tuning out the back door and never want to see it again and I won't ever bare shaft another bow. My MarXman is one of the most accurate bows I've ever owned. Timed perfect it is nasty for nock height, 3/8" high. Two days before a 3D I French tuned my MarXman. Tested it the next day and then took 2nd place at that weekend's 3D. All of 2014 my worst finish was a 4th place at a ASA State Qualifier. 

The MarXman, *Legend cams*, French tuned, did half of the Vegas Face, score 398/400. Okay 20 shots, December 2014 and damned cold. The other 20 shots came from my MX2 that had about 1/16" nock high setting. The arrows in the 3D center are from my 2000 Hoyt MagnaTec, French tuned. Those arrows represent fixed broadheads, 1 NAP Braxe, 1 Realtree Chiz-L and 1 Realtree low profile Gunnison.

Bow companies bring out a bow. X amount of shims are they for spacing the cams or wheels. Some wiz decided/found X amount of shims was the best. I will not go changing shims to make my bow bare shaft tune. I think it's stup-d. 

Another picture. It's of my Hoyt UltraTec. French tuned, it lead to more finishes and wins than I can remember, 3D, Indoor, Outdoor and Field. How do you like the cam and wheel lean? Notice the brass nock and cushion button? Yep, before d-loops became the rage.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I don't know how to link the post.

You are a very good archer and that has more impact on score that a great tuned bow. 

You are correct about there being more than one method of tuning a bow. I made a bad assumption that you were talking about bare shaft tuning since this thread was about bare shaft tuning.

Thanks for the education.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Pull up your post, right click on the number in top right hand corner and click copy shortcut. Then paste in reply here. 



1 - Good archer? Lord! Archery is about like Trap shooting. Yeah, after your 2nd truck of shells you get kind of good. Well, I'm on my 3rd truck load of arrows....I gave up on the first two 
2 - Great tuned bow? Tell someone that I French tune and they'll tell you I'm nuts. Show the pictures of the wheel and cam lean and they tell you that can't possibly shoot well..... Well, that old bow did some fine shooting. Here's 3 pics in one. 35 yards, one arrow is crushing the vane of another, 3 arrows. 60 yards, there are 3 arrows in the black dot. 80 yards, just a tad off that day, but note the group. I was aiming at the arrow stuck in the bag.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If I could shoot that good I would not be worrying about tuning the bow. You are a good archer even if you are modest.

There is no need to pull up the old post. I was only interested in bare shaft tuning.

I agree that bows can be tuned using different methods and very good accuracy can be achieved. I don't have any proof but I think that bare shaft tuning is the most telling method of tuning. Bare shaft tuning seems to show that the bow, the arrows and the archer are working together as best that the system can work.

Then there is group tuning which many professional shooters prefer because they are only interested in where the arrows hit.

I prefer to have a bow that can be tuned using any method that I choose. Maybe others would like this option also.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Jim, Bare Shaft tuning and French tuning aren't all that different.

Bare shaft, moving the rest for horizontal and moving the rest or string nock for vertical.
French tuning, moving the rest for center shot and not always given with French tuning is moving the rest or string nock up and down to see if groups can be tightened.
Of note; Perhaps my bare shaft tuning failed due to the FOC of my arrows, 6.04%. Even so my accuracy doesn't suffer, not out to my ASA max distance of 40 yards and I shot 50 yards and longer with darn good accuracy.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I wish I had a Podium X40. I love a challenge and have been able to bare shaft (or in the day broadhead) tune every bow I have owned (and several I didn't).

NOT saying it can or can not be done, just saying I'd like to try.


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I would set the rest smack dab on center and put a twist or two on the left side of the yoke.


What he said!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh boy....Here's something from the 3D King. -1- bare shaft through paper and then proceeds with his "Walk back tuning." I believe it's more a form of French tuning. Look under Seven Steps to Perfect Tune. Hey, I agree with the weighting of the bare shaft. I have doubts I get on the phone or email. Both NAP and Bohning agree with the weighting of the bare shaft.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...i-morgans-tips-for-better-bowhunting-accuracy


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Oh boy....Here's something from the 3D King. -1- bare shaft through paper and then proceeds with his "Walk back tuning." I believe it's more a form of French tuning. Look under Seven Steps to Perfect Tune. Hey, I agree with the weighting of the bare shaft. I have doubts I get on the phone or email. Both NAP and Bohning agree with the weighting of the bare shaft.
> 
> http://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...i-morgans-tips-for-better-bowhunting-accuracy



Sonny,
It looks to me like Levi didn't proof that article before it went to press. 
-Checking for contact with powder AFTER paper tuning? 
-Walk back tuning AFTER group tuning? Then you read a little closer & find that the "group" tuning described isn't, it's nock tuning.

It looks to me like Levi had a 10 minute conversation with the guy that actually wrote the article and never looked at it again. I doubt that it describes how Levi actually tunes his bows. I doesn't have any bad advice, just out of order and IMO incomplete. 

Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

aread said:


> Sonny,
> It looks to me like Levi didn't proof that article before it went to press.
> -Checking for contact with powder AFTER paper tuning?
> -Walk back tuning AFTER group tuning? Then you read a little closer & find that the "group" tuning described isn't, it's nock tuning.
> ...


Have to agree that something is amiss. Poor editing? But then by many on AT it's gospel because Levi said so. I had some words to say...3 or 4 times 

I think this is where I jumped in. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2901898&p=1077932250#post1077932250


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