# Why choose ILF over Formula?



## cekkmt (Nov 29, 2013)

MK korea produces very nice formula limbs, and the MK inpers f series are some of the best limbs I have shot for around $300. I am currently shooting a hoyt RX with Mk limbs. Only issue is that they are not easily available in the US.


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

Personally, I just like the variety of limbs that are available in ILF. I also like the availability of risers in IFL. Also, I do not see much difference in the way of superiority in either fitting type. Most of the Hoyt limb lines can also be purchased in the IFL or the Formula fittings. I have a pair of F7 ILF limbs, that I like very much.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> I'll be the first to admit that Doug Denton's formula design produced a VERY nice shooting bow that's worth checking out for any serious recurve archer.
> 
> However, I have recently been asked by two archers to help them find new limbs for their formula recurves. So I went to Lancasters just to see what was available, and for how much.
> 
> ...


I ran into this more generally in Nov/Dec and I looked at MK Korea through Chris and then ultimately bought some limbs from the UK. I got Hoyt 720 ILFs faster from there than here. Their price was nominally cheaper then worked out the same with expensive shipping included.

You'd make a wish list from window shopping and then have to make a second pass back through based on whether it was backordered. It was dis-spiriting. I ended up so underwhelmed by what was left that I just went safe and got the same Hoyts from Merlin in the UK for my next step, and an experimental cheap brand (Mybo) for +#4. [My high 70 score so far is actually with the Merlin Hoyts on a windy day in February.]


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Sf produces their new Velocity limbs in formula, and those are rumored to shoot as nice as winexes. But I definitely agree, the limb choices are much narrower and more expensive. 

On top of that, if I were to shoot formula it would be an RX since I find I dislike the straighter HPX geometry that all the formulas are in now. Only problem with that is that they discontinued the RX


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

The fact still remains, you can get better equipment for less almost anywhere else. 

Viper1 out.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I think their risers are butt ugly.

But when I was at Vegas, I was amazed at how different the draw felt for the same poundage bow. I asked one of the reps there if the limb marking were correct, because the formula limbs felt a whole lot lighter to pull than equivalent ILF limbs. He said they were.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

cekkmt said:


> MK korea produces very nice formula limbs, and the MK inpers f series are some of the best limbs I have shot for around $300. I am currently shooting a hoyt RX with Mk limbs. *Only issue is that they are not easily available in the US.*


I'm aware that MK makes some great limbs for formula risers, but that was my next question. Can I GET them? These kids need limbs NOW. Not 6 months from now. It's frustrating. If I go to order ILF limbs for a student, and the exact ones I have in mind aren't available, then no big deal. There's almost always a good solid 2nd choice limb in stock. And usually they are $100-200 less than the corresponding formula limb.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I think their risers are butt ugly.
> 
> But when I was at Vegas, I was amazed at how different the draw felt for the same poundage bow. I asked one of the reps there if the limb marking were correct, because the formula limbs felt a whole lot lighter to pull than equivalent ILF limbs. He said they were.


There are stacky and smooth ILF limbs too. I'm just thinking of availability and price right now - neither are in favor of the formula line.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Maybe formula works then? Nothing available other than the current options?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Of course they work. The question is how to get them.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

I get the idea behind formula, I just don't like to be limited to either one maker's stuff, or else a long, hideous wait for another maker. It's a long enough wait for ILF limbs from some makers.  That said, I may borrow someone's Rx/720 set up and see how I like it just in case I decide on yet ANOTHER major upgrade from what I am doing this year. My coach, a huge Hoyt fan, actually tried to talk a JOAD kids parents out of getting formula for that reason -- but they went ahead and did it anyway.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Has anybody at the highest level shot a well tuned bow of comparable value in each format? I would just like to know if there is any measurable difference in performance. 

Apples and oranges and grapefruits, trying to sort between sponsored shooters and those influenced by sponsored shooters and what actually is value/performance for the money. I am guessing if any difference it could only be a few points and at that only for an elite? 

And again, if W&W picked up the top hoyt shooters would their scores be any different. Does anybody know of any elites who have switched camps? Did it affect their scores?

Some double blind testing would be cool, ala the old pepsi challenge... though that would be interesting with archery...


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Of course they work. The question is how to get them.


How to get what? Formula limbs? Pay the price. 

Designing a new "standard" that fixes customers to a product only really gives an advantage to the designer, for a while. Once everyone catches up move to the next format. 

As an example that moves faster think of a fruit based tech company that changes connectors. They change, give the product people buy with the new product.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

My 2c on formula:

Aesthetically, I don't like them (and, after all, looking good on the line is half the battle).

Functionally, I can see the benefits that formula can provide, mainly when it comes to torsional stability. Since formula has been out and the main draw of it is that stability, you are seeing more and more manufacturers taking that into account with their ILF limbs (uukha and W&W come to mind) that make them, nearly, as good as the "middle-of-the-road" formula and for a significantly lower price. Add on top of that the fact that there are many more fantastic ILF risers available at a more accessible price, it's hard for me to justify buying anything formula.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

bob - 

I think most of us who have been around the block more than a few times know it's rarely, if ever the equipment - at least not the bow. 
Sorry, double blind testing is rarely really "double blind". 

When you see over 90% of shooters on a given line shooting the exact same equipment or even a single piece of equipment, you'll have your answer.
I have a feeling you may have a long wait for that. 

To make matters worse, even if there were such a piece of equipment, the odds are that OVER 95% of the shooters out there would not be able to exploit the difference. 

BTW - when someone starts touting one piece of equipment over another, make sure you know if they are financially or emotionally married to that piece or it's manufacturer. 

Last - 

Don't confuse profit with function. IMHO, the ONLY reason you're seeing other companies making formula limbs is to increase sales. People bought a foumula riser and they are going to need limbs for it. If I were in business, that's what I would do - sell to as many markets as possible.

Viper1 out.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm always shaking my head at manufacturers of archery gear. How is it that a company can unveil a new product and then have the customers wait 6 more months before one is actually ready to ship out? It doesn't make sense to announce a new product that no one can get. Right now, they should be making stock for the hunting and Christmas seasons. Once September or October hit, it should be all about the new line for the next year. Of course, once they get behind like they are now, there's virtually no way to catch back up and not skip a production year. Why do put up with this as archers? Just because they all do it? We're tired of complaining and nothing changing?

To answer the original question: ILF. No point in spending the extra money for gear that can't outshoot you any better than what you can get for much less.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Don't confuse profit with function. IMHO, the ONLY reason you're seeing other companies making formula limbs is to increase sales. People bought a foumula riser and they are going to need limbs for it. If I were in business, that's what I would do - sell to as many markets as possible.


Ding ding!! We have a winner, right there!


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I'll be the first to admit that Doug Denton's formula design produced a VERY nice shooting bow that's worth checking out for any serious recurve archer.
> 
> However, I have recently been asked by two archers to help them find new limbs for their formula recurves. So I went to Lancasters just to see what was available, and for how much.
> 
> ...


If they feel it's not worth the wait, then by all means pick out the next best thing within a particular budget. I would agree that in that lower range, many foreign companies beat out the lower end offerings in speed (of delivery) and quality (like limb adjustments). Once we move into the high end truck/Cadillac range, then the offerings start to even out in prices a bit. Although I don't know just how available the other high end offerings are readily available.

As Viper 1 pointed out, for most of the archery crowd, including myself at this point, would have a difficult time comparing other than saying the feedback at the hand is nicer than the other. I recently upgraded my limbs from Carbon 720's to a set of Quattro's but I also went up 4 pounds in draw and went from Medallion XR's to Nano Extremes. I feel I am shooting better BUT, is it limbs, arrows, much more intense shooting schedule I did leading up to Louisville, or all in my head? Maybe some in equipment but I would say more in the flat out training department.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> To answer the original question: ILF. No point in spending the extra money for gear that can't outshoot you any better than what you can get for much less.


This leads into the thread on "when to upgrade". It's not a matter of performance in some cases it's a matter of I have a good job and I want some cool stuff. Why do people buy stupid fast cars when our speed limit is 70 on the highway. You can buy a Yugo or a Ferrari, they both get you from A to B but we all know why many people do that. Monetarily doesn't make sense, but that's just one piece in the grand scheme of things.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I'm aware that MK makes some great limbs for formula risers, but that was my next question. Can I GET them? These kids need limbs NOW. Not 6 months from now. It's frustrating. If I go to order ILF limbs for a student, and the exact ones I have in mind aren't available, then no big deal. There's almost always a good solid 2nd choice limb in stock. And usually they are $100-200 less than the corresponding formula limb.


i believe i was able to deliver limbs to your student in 4 weeks. I will have to check the timeline, but i think that is correct. 

Usually if MK Korea has the limbs in stock, its about 3 weeks, if they have to make them, its 6 weeks. I have been timely with every MK order i have taken. 

While i am not a formula fan, as they have a smaller poundage range than ILF when trying to spine arrows, the Formula Inpers are a low cost high quality limb. They are $349.99. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

gster123 said:


> How to get what? Formula limbs? Pay the price.
> 
> Designing a new "standard" that fixes customers to a product only really gives an advantage to the designer, for a while. Once everyone catches up move to the next format.
> 
> As an example that moves faster think of a fruit based tech company that changes connectors. They change, give the product people buy with the new product.


You clearly did not read my original post. This has nothing to do with their function.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Has anybody at the highest level shot a well tuned bow of comparable value in each format? I would just like to know if there is any measurable difference in performance.


I have. My brother once owned an RX with F4 limbs and he loaned it to me for a while. Aside from the stacking limbs (F4's were notorious for stacking) it was a very nice shooting bow. Very stable and quiet. I liked it enough to ask Hoyt if they would send me one to test prior to stage 2 of the Oly. trials (I had already made the top 16 cut using my Axis/Masters limbs combo). They responded with a "no thank you" so I pursued other options. 



> If they feel it's not worth the wait, then by all means pick out the next best thing within a particular budget.


They are teenagers with Formula risers and a limited budget. What would you have them choose?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I guess my biggest issue with formula is the price of the limbs, for those that want to buy once cry once (definitely not me), it just doesnt work. You can buy the riser for a similar price to any high end riser, but entry hoyt formula limb is 250, and entry MK limb is 350. That doesnt allow for stepping up in weight at an economical pace, or offer a variety of options. So, what they do is either gouge people or set themselves up for having to be an upgrade later on for those that dont get duped into the system from the start.

Does the prodigy look great to me, sure, but I am way too invested in ILF to make the switch on prospect... and not that good anyway.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John,I use to shoot the formula risers abd limbs and limbs and really had a hard time finding them in stock..however my local Hoyt would sell me the limbs for 515.00 and could get them in a couple of weeks. It doesn't make sense to me that if LAS has the demand for limbs how and why are they always out of stock.

Dewayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, this is what's surprising me. I only buy from Lancasters anymore unless there is no other option (because of who Rob is, and the support they continue to give to the archery community as a whole). But it's disheartening when you click on a limb length and nearly all the options are backordered.  I don't get it either.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

When I ordered my prodigy and quattro's I had both in less than 2 weeks. So yes the limbs had to be ordered but it was very fast. It is one of the nicest shooting bows I have owned and I personally love the looks of it.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

My bad John, mistook it for getting a whole new setup. Any in the classifieds? What are they looking for? I've always had to wait for mine as every time the shop calls, they seem to be building them as they are ordered instead of having extra in stock sitting around. Seems to be there are so many poundage with different length options they approach it in a "just in time" manufacturing process.

Rod

Edit: usually 3 to 4 weeks on the limbs etc I have ordered. F7 sets, 1 carbon 720, one Quattro set all in that timeframe.


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## bowmaster1972 (Oct 22, 2012)

John, 
If you can't get the Formula limbs in a timely manner, have you considered the Uukha limbs with the Formula adapter? Are there other manufacturers that produce a Formula adapter? The Uukha limbs are not that much less expensive than the Hoyt limbs, but buying limbs and adapter may still be less costly than completely switching rigs to ILF. From your original post, it sounds like the students already have limbs. Are they trying to move up in weight, quality, etc? 

This is the main reason I don't recommend the Hoyt Formula. They make some decent stuff, but when you can pay so much less for same if not better quality, I have to assume you are buying the name, and I just don't think it is worth it. ILF just has so many other combinations, it's hard to justify spending the extra cash just to get locked into a particular system. Although, if Hoyt decided to send me a complete bow for me to shoot, I would definitely jump on board, but not with my money.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One girl is moving up in quality, the other is going from longs to mediums (36#) - or, was hoping to. I'm going to recommend she sell her whole Formula kit and I can probably get her two full bows with the money she has.



> Although, if Hoyt decided to send me a complete bow for me to shoot, I would definitely jump on board, but not with my money.


Yup. That's kinda where I was in late 2011. I could use the limbs I had and find two new ILF risers for the price of just one formula bow.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

I wonder how many Korean's shoot formula .:devil:

I think if you live in America, Hoyt has been ingrained as the premiere product. I live 45min away from Lancaster, and had Gordy fit my wife recently. All I asked for was what she needed to enjoy shooting indoors. We left with an older stock LH Samick Privilege riser and 26# W&W SF Premium+ carbon limbs, with a DX plunger. I chose to upgrade limbs due to the low riser cost.

Hoyt was never even considered. 

Part of me thinks it would be wrong to put Hoyt ILF limbs on a Korean riser. I'm over 50 , so that's the ingrained part kicking in. Younger shooters probably wont care.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Unless Hoyt pays them, most Koreans dont shoot Hoyt limbs. They do shoot Hoyt risers. 

Mostly you will see WinWin limbs since WinWin is a MAJOR Korean sponsor.

Even if a top Korean archer likes another limb like MK or Hoyt, its rare for them to shoot anything but a WinWin limb outside of Korea. The two that didnt are sponsored by Hoyt. Oh Jin Hyek and Im Dong Hyun. 

Too much money at stake for WinWin to lose control of that. Risers are harder for average watcher to know the brand. But not with limbs. The brand is easy to see.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Risers are harder for average watcher to know the brand. But not with limbs. The brand is easy to see.


Unless of course it's a tec riser, which makes me wonder if that's not why that design has returned.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

I think theres a market for cheap formula limbs? Yes?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

airwolfipsc said:


> I think theres a market for cheap formula limbs? Yes?


I doubt it. Nobody who chooses Hoyt is thinking "cheap." Or particularly wants to be seen as "cheap."


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## Mormegil (Jan 26, 2012)

bobnikon said:


> Has anybody at the highest level shot a well tuned bow of comparable value in each format? I would just like to know if there is any measurable difference in performance.
> 
> Apples and oranges and grapefruits, trying to sort between sponsored shooters and those influenced by sponsored shooters and what actually is value/performance for the money. I am guessing if any difference it could only be a few points and at that only for an elite?
> 
> ...


Taylor Worth apparently had a string of bad luck with hoyt limbs delaminating and switched to win & win with no trouble at all the week before the Olympic qualifying trials.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> You clearly did not read my original post. This has nothing to do with their function.


John, I'm not talking about their function. Merely saying that if you move into a different system you are tied to that. Your also tied to the available options unless their are alternatives and you probably would pay a premium for that. 

See, nothing to do with function and actually agreeing with your origin post (which I did read).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

For me the bottom line is that, I've seen no conclusive proof that the Formula style bow is "better shooting equipment" than ILF equipment. In that just the bow itself will make the archer shoot better scores. If not then why, other than looks or brand loyalty would your choose an option with such limited selection?

Regards,

Tom


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

massman said:


> For me the bottom line is that, I've seen no conclusive proof that the Formula style bow is "better shooting equipment" than ILF equipment. In that just the bow itself will make the archer shoot better scores. If not then why, other than looks or brand loyalty would your choose an option with such limited selection?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


There is something in our lizard brain when we are buying stuff. We buy based on what we think are the facts, but we have filtered out some of the relevant ones. We buy based on logic and we defend emotionally. Or is it the other way around-- buy based on emotion, then we "rationalize".

The real reasons are, "It's what I could afford." or "It came in that color" or "So and so shoots it and they are the tops, they're the Colosseum so maybe I will be too." or "It's American made." or "It doesn't say Hoyt." Or "there is no anecdotal evidence that this is better than that so it's eeny meeny miney mo." or the real reason, "It's new and shiny and the next innovation so I'm getting it. because it must be better over last year's model. Even though it probably isn't."

The question: if a US Olympian had to spend their own money like the rest of us mortals), rather than have bows and arrows supplied to them -- what would they have personally chosen? Formula or ILF? What brand?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> if a US Olympian had to spend their own money like the rest of us mortals), rather than have bows and arrows supplied to them -- what would they have personally chosen? Formula or ILF? What brand?


I'll answer that.

If I were starting from scratch, I'd choose one of the top-end ILF risers that suits my needs (Gillo G1, Win-Win AL1, SKY TR-7, Bernardini Luxor, etc.) and then stick a pair of W&W or MK limbs on it. That's if I was looking to buy brand new gear.

But rarely do I ever buy brand new gear, so it's more likely that I'd find a good used ILF riser and some original Earl Hoyt SKY limbs (like the ones I own now), and just go shoot.

Once you get to a certain level of gear, there really isn't that much difference between one brand and the next. Mainly it comes down to little things like, which grip does the riser accept (which may be more than a little thing to many) how the clicker extension/recess looks and works, what kind of limb alignment system it has, how the grip is located (high or low) on the riser, whether it has the bushings you need, where you want them, and finally how you think it looks. 

Limbs are another matter altogether, and IMO are more important than the riser since it's pretty hard to tell the difference between 8 or 10 of the top-end ILF risers these days. 

Regarding why someone chooses one brand or another, it's impossible to predict. Perhaps their favorite archer shoots that brand. Perhaps their first bow was that brand. Or, as is the case with many families of young archers in the U.S. these days, they think that their kid will be more likely to be "noticed" or taken "seriously" or have a chance at a "team" if they shoot a certain brand. And that's a real thing, unfortunately.

This was my last end yesterday evening at 50M. That's a 59 on an 80cm face with some VERY old SKY limbs and a well-used TR-7 prototype riser. Not sure what other bow would have "given" me that last point. LOL.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I'll answer that.
> 
> If I were starting from scratch, I'd choose one of the top-end ILF risers that suits my needs (Gillo G1, Win-Win AL1, SKY TR-7, Bernardini Luxor, etc.) and then stick a pair of W&W or MK limbs on it. That's if I was looking to buy brand new gear.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that bedliner finish on that TR7 got you an extra 5 points!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That riser always shot better in black.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Incidentally, I still think the Hoyt Axis risers is the best non-formula riser Hoyt has ever produced, by a mile. I don't know why more ILF shooters don't use them.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

Sadly to say I think looks are more important than the way it shoots.
bty I have always shot better with my Eolla yamaha and bty I habe not
shot the tr7 John? I gues theres a reason why Brady shot that now
before Hoyt got him on the payroll.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A little birdie told me that was Brady's favorite bow.  There's a reason Vic still shoots his, despite having tried several others recently. 

The production TR-7's are great shooters too, but I have the grips on my prototypes dailed in, and I'm not changing again.


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## rookcaca (Oct 10, 2002)

For me ILF all the way, I really like Hoyt and the Quattro limbs I had were really nice. I now shoot ILF because of the selection and range of price points. I think it really comes down to being comfortable with your equipment and tuning, there is no magic piece of equipment that is going to make you shoot like an Olympian, if you want to get better, practice.

If a new archerr came to me and asked for advice, I would not recommend Hoyt to start with, way too much money for an entry fee.

I also agree with the availability, if I am stuck and cannot get something from Lancaster, I usually try to get it from Europe.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

From marketing point of view, it gives great dividends to alter design, then wait for competitors to catch up, then alter it slightly again. So I'd expect Hoyt to come with either "new" design in an year or two or drop it alltogether and leave competitors with the problem of producing several variations of limbs, with all added design and production costs that come with it. Something that, along with QA issues, completely wrecked Yamaha recurves back in the day.

In any case, even if there is no sporting gain, my economists' mind sees it as a splendid business move.


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## Nick1959 (Apr 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Incidentally, I still think the Hoyt Axis risers is the best non-formula riser Hoyt has ever produced, by a mile. I don't know why more ILF shooters don't use them.


Hard to find in a left hand... :mg:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

True. A LH Axis is like the unicorn of archery.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

Win & Win make better and faster limbs and I like the feel of carbon risers. That's why I sold my formula rig in favor of ILF.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> True. A LH Axis is like the unicorn of archery.


So much looking for a LH Axis. I already gave up looking for a LH Yamaha.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

Astroguy said:


> So much looking for a LH Axis. I already gave up looking for a LH Yamaha.


I have a LH Alpha EX with 43lb Ceramic limbs. Would be hard to get rid of it though... 

I know of another similar one with carbon limbs that's not getting used, if you're interested I'll try and get in contact with the guy.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

DarkMuppet said:


> I have a LH Alpha EX with 43lb Ceramic limbs. Would be hard to get rid of it though...
> 
> I know of another similar one with carbon limbs that's not getting used, if you're interested I'll try and get in contact with the guy.


PM sent.


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## chirag2f4u (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm currently in a pickle with my Hoyt Formula Excel...I am ready to move up from my 26# (set to 28#) to maybe 34# but I cant afford new limbs at the moment. I'm starting to wish I'd have gone for a straight ILF riser starting of since new limbs would be easier to find and probably much cheaper


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chirag2f4u said:


> I'm currently in a pickle with my Hoyt Formula Excel...I am ready to move up from my 26# (set to 28#) to maybe 34# but I cant afford new limbs at the moment. I'm starting to wish I'd have gone for a straight ILF riser starting of since new limbs would be easier to find and probably much cheaper


Sorry about your predicament, but this is exactly the problem, and the reason I don't recommend formula bows for most folks.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

I remember talking to a guy once who went to a business seminar and the topic was "making customers wait to give you money". Basically the lecture was why would you not want to take peoples money as fast as they can give it to you and how to make that happen. I don't run a small business and I'm sure there are many supply and production problems that are hard to prevent but it always amazes me how often I see this kind of thing happen. Customers standing in line just begging to give a business money and they are unable for what ever reason to take it. Not just in archery.


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