# Full center or offset center shot alignment?



## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

I shoot barebow recurve, split finger release and have been setting my center shot with the arrow off set to the left (right hand shooter) of limb aligned string. I have also been reading about full on center shot where the limb aligned string basically bisects the arrow shaft. So any information on why you use one or the other and in which situations would either be used would be appreciated??


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I prefer bows cut 1/8th inch past center. Tuning is simpler and I can shoot a slightly stiffer arrow. 3/16ths works if I shoot really fat shafts.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Setting arrow outside the string will center the arrow on bend and plunger depression (if you are using one). I am not sure why you would put the arrow on the center line if you are shooting fingers. I would like to hear the arguments from folks that understand what is happening.


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## timothymattson (Jun 19, 2013)

For right handed shooter, the more the center shot of the bow is past center (to left for right handed bow), would that require a less stiff spine? Not stiffer?


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

timothymattson said:


> For right handed shooter, the more the center shot of the bow is past center (to left for right handed bow), would that require a less stiff spine? Not stiffer?


Difference in the positive and negative of shelf cut on the spine calculator. 1/8th from center (left of for a right handed bow) would need an arrow with less spine or more weight up front. Past is cut to and then more.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

woof - 

Dead center is fine, if your form is perfect - every time. 
Most people going dead center are kidding themselves, at best. 

Viper1 out.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Finishing tuning with center shot set outboard of center line, with few exceptions, just works better for shooting finger release. It just does. 

So the REAL question is WHY? 

I admit I do not know with 100% certainty, but I suspect that it is simply so that the initial flex of the arrow is created with higher consistency. 

We definitely want that flex to be created, so with the pressure point being outboard, it WILL be created, very much the same way every time, regardless of variations in release. 

Maybe.

On a good day.

:dontknow:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

My opinion is that no matter how clean your release is, any release of a bow string held by the fingers will result in some lateral displacement of the nock end of the arrow. The better your release, the less displacement, but it is always present to some degree.

Having the bow built with a centershot that sets the arrow slightly outside of dead center helps keep the front and back nodes in alignment at the release. It's the combination of how far from perfect centershot on the front end, the amount of displacement due to the finger release on the back end, and arrow dynamic properties (length, spine, point weight, ect.) the go into what we call "tune".

If you were shooting a release there is little if any lateral displacement of the nock end and true centershot is what you want, like with a compound. Finger shooters are better served with the arrow slightly outside of centershot, point slightly left of the string for a right handed shooter when seen from behind the bow.

The further from centershot the bow is built, the weaker the dynamic response for a good tune. That's why longbow shooters are usually shooting a slightly weaker spine arrow.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Arrow off set does make sense when you think of the string rolling off the fingers during a shot and arrow flex/plunger action- with the use of releases- as in compounds center arrow alignment makes more sense. Thanks all for the responses. Living and learning what fun....


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

woof156 said:


> Arrow off set does make sense when you think of the string rolling off the fingers during a shot and arrow flex/plunger action- with the use of releases- as in compounds center arrow alignment makes more sense. Thanks all for the responses. Living and learning what fun....



Yes indeed.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

Lets understand this. Paradox is generated by the string rolling/sliding around the finger tips on release and effectively pushing the tip of the arrow into the strike plate or plunger. Degree of center shot is one way of tempering (tuning) the degree of flex during paradox, so the arrow ends up flying in the same direction it was initially pointing. 

While it may be possible to have the arrow sitting far enough passed center the negate or counter the "finger induced" paradox, that would make the rig too critical for most humans to shoot consistently. 

Viper1 out.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes, it must have SOMETHING to do with string rolling off of fingers. But since that happens regardless, why should it matter WHERE you center shot is set? On the face of it, one could simply proceed with tuning with center shot where ever it may be. After all in a way that is what we do when tuning for shooting off the hand with a "shoot around" riser. (think self bow) 

BUT self bow or not, it only works out well if center shot is outboard, NOT anywhere it happens to be. 

So the point about node alignment brings up further thought. Rather than consistency, is setting up center shot outboard done in order to have it more closely match how far the string is deflected laterally? And if perhaps not a direct one to one linear measurement match, then a harmonic match? For example, a 1/8" out of center pressure point to match a 1/4" of lateral string deflection? And of course since we're not in a position to measure that lateral string deflection, we go with a good first guess and the tuning process itself takes it from there?

BTW I can see that making the node match would in and of itself assist in consistency.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Bender, like you say in your signature line: Archery,...so easy a caveman can do it. At least provided the caveman can solve second order non linear differential equations.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

A very well known bow maker told me that High TS limbs require Center or slightly outside. I build most of my striker plates to adjust from center to 1 arrow shaft outside. these setting are viewed from bow belly side with both limb faces laying flat on two identical chair backs, string alignment to arrow tip at brace height. first check should be limb tips for twist. then limb to limb and then arrow plumb to riser window. that's center for risers that a cut past center!
Dan


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

woof156 said:


> I shoot barebow recurve, split finger release and have been setting my center shot with the arrow off set to the left (right hand shooter) of limb aligned string. I have also been reading about full on center shot where the limb aligned string basically bisects the arrow shaft. So any information on why you use one or the other and in which situations would either be used would be appreciated??


I don't know of much about archery, but I do know that for *me, center-past center* accomodate my wood shafts the best, being that my spine is somethimes measured less than 1/4"... :grin:


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## WoolyWelsh (Sep 9, 2006)

If you can download the guide, it's worth it to look at all of page 2:

Easton Tuning Guide - page 2 "Centering" the Arrow - The objective of arrow centering is to have the arrow leave the "theoretical" or "balanced" limb center of the bow. In actuality, it's the two nodes of the arrow shaft that should leave the center of the bow in direct alignment to the target. Releasing the string with fingers creates a horizontal bending motion within the arrow. The page 2 also has a drawing titled "Aligning the Nodes" and explains it further in figures 3,4,5, & 6. 


Easy & Bender are bang-on with their own descriptions.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

You can talk all the semantics you want. Most traditional bowhunters find a bow shelf cut past center and easier to tune. The string recovers from the off center finger release long before the end of the power stroke. Paradox is created by the flex of the arrow not the string released from the fingers.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Todays strings and TS limbs are far better now then when Easton Tuning Guide was written. So Aligning the Nodes are part of bare shaft tuning as well as string blur.
Dan


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

If the rest location is on the first Node or just behind as with OLY setups a clickers. then that" center, Right? There is several OLY archer videos that indicate center to be your starting point. then shaft and string can deflect as much or little as it wants. BH plays a big part of this as well. Goal? So arrow leaves at BH straight and then flexes enough to clear the shelf.
Dan


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Bender, like you say in your signature line: Archery,...so easy a caveman can do it. At least provided the caveman can solve second order non linear differential equations.


:icon_1_lol:


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Bender, like you say in your signature line: Archery,...so easy a caveman can do it. At least provided the caveman can solve second order non linear differential equations.


LOL Yeah and if they had their shooting would have become so efficient they probably would have been able to kill all the dragons on earth.....and probably those delicious unicorns.


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

On my target bow I put it so close to center it’s hard to find a difference. I feel I am a good target archer. NFAA 300 scores average 275 Barebow. PB 287. My hunting bows I move out just a little. I think it has a lot to do with my face structure.
Arrowchucker out


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Lets understand this. Paradox is generated by the string rolling/sliding around the finger tips on release and effectively pushing the tip of the arrow into the strike plate or plunger. Degree of center shot is one way of tempering (tuning) the degree of flex during paradox, so the arrow ends up flying in the same direction it was initially pointing.
> 
> ...


I dont think this is true. When you shoot an arrow from a string the arrow is going to vibrate sinusoidally in the axis perpendicular to the string, because the sight window is there it prevents the arrow from vibrating in that direction, people prefer to have alignment just past center shot because it keeps the vibrations consistent and gets the arrow clear of the sight window so that the arrow isnt hitting the bow on the way out. A good nock will let the string roll around without messing with the arrow, its usually finger pinch that causes finger rolling to mess with the arrow, which is something you should be avoiding or trying to avoid. That said i think the general advice for barreled arrows is centershot, i could be wrong though.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Roof_Korean said:


> That said i think the general advice for barreled arrows is centershot, i could be wrong though.


Interesting I wondered whether barrel vs parallel shaft arrows should be aligned the same and how different their dynamic flex would be (love to see some good slo mo of the two flying through the air). Based on your information barrel shafts should be center aligned and parallel shafts should be offset?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Roof_Korean said:


> I dont think this is true. When you shoot an arrow from a string the arrow is going to vibrate sinusoidally in the axis perpendicular to the string, because the sight window is there it prevents the arrow from vibrating in that direction, people prefer to have alignment just past center shot because it keeps the vibrations consistent and gets the arrow clear of the sight window so that the arrow isnt hitting the bow on the way out. A good nock will let the string roll around without messing with the arrow, its usually finger pinch that causes finger rolling to mess with the arrow, which is something you should be avoiding or trying to avoid. That said i think the general advice for barreled arrows is centershot, i could be wrong though.


I'm wondering if my self nocks (they don't grab the string at all) inadvertently benefit my style of shooting. I prefer center shot whether barreled or not... and I'm assuming you're referring to tapered at both ends to be barreled... :grin:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Setting arrow outside the string will center the arrow on bend and plunger depression (if you are using one). I am not sure why you would put the arrow on the center line if you are shooting fingers. I would like to hear the arguments from folks that understand what is happening.


I think Ben Rogers prefers center shot. That dude can shoot.

I don't think that dead center is particularly magical, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either.

If you watch an arrow in slow motion, the initial wave that travels down the shaft from the slip off the fingers causes the shaft to bounce off the riser (or plunger), so the front doesn't stay centered for long.

Whether the arrow tunes well upon leaving is a summation of a whole lot of mess, so the degree of center (or out of center) that the arrow starts with is just one variable in a complex equation.

Myself, I'm kind of agnostic. Fiddle with it until it flies right, then shoot, is my philosophy.


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## Jacques Malan (Mar 28, 2019)

Good thread!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Roof_Korean said:


> I dont think this is true. When you shoot an arrow from a string the arrow is going to vibrate sinusoidally in the axis perpendicular to the string, because the sight window is there it prevents the arrow from vibrating in that direction, people prefer to have alignment just past center shot because it keeps the vibrations consistent and gets the arrow clear of the sight window so that the arrow isnt hitting the bow on the way out.


You can tune it either way. The closer to center, the more stiff the shaft will have to be, and depending on the setup, particularly if you don't have a plunger, it _may_ be more forgiving to have a dynamically weaker spined arrow, which would tune better farther out of center shot, but I wouldn't assume.

You know, because Easton says it (or whoever), doesn't mean it's true. I'm referring to the sinusoidal oscillation, and am specifically talking upon immediate release. I don't know where I put the video, but when I got my crappy Casio point and shoot, I took advantage of it's 1000 fps camera on a tripod, and took a picture from the nock end shooting arrows. If I advanced it frame by frame, for the first 3-4 thousandths of a second, you could see following the finger release a lateral wave traveling down the arrow. It was not sinusoidal, but like a shock wave, and if you counted frames and the arrow length, it traveled quickly, like when somebody cracks a rope. But, for that movement, the back moved, the front did not, until that wave traveled down, whipping the arrow away from the riser, while the front stayed put.

Then, as it started to pick up movement, the flex evened out across the shaft, tail still left, and as the tail kicked back in, then the front finally came around with it in the same direction and in whipping with the tail, launched the front out from the riser, bringing the shaft around kind of straight, then of course the tail kicks in even farther, but then back out, and when it finally leaves the string swinging left, it's more or less in line with the front, even if offset to the left overall, but traveling straight ahead.

Maybe you're just talking about after the initial flex, in which case, yes, once it's actually simply vibrating, it does that wiggle thing.

Anyway, maybe I'm just running off on my own tangent.

But I thought it was interesting.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

GCook said:


> You can talk all the semantics you want. Most traditional bowhunters find a bow shelf cut past center and easier to tune. The string recovers from the off center finger release long before the end of the power stroke. Paradox is created by the flex of the arrow not the string released from the fingers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


The finger release, AND the subsequent lateral movement of the string is why the arrow flex is so much more than what you will see when shooting with a release.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Roof_Korean said:


> I dont think this is true. When you shoot an arrow from a string the arrow is going to vibrate sinusoidally in the axis perpendicular to the string, because the sight window is there it prevents the arrow from vibrating in that direction, people prefer to have alignment just past center shot because it keeps the vibrations consistent and gets the arrow clear of the sight window so that the arrow isnt hitting the bow on the way out. A good nock will let the string roll around without messing with the arrow, its usually finger pinch that causes finger rolling to mess with the arrow, which is something you should be avoiding or trying to avoid. That said i think the general advice for barreled arrows is centershot, i could be wrong though.


Partly true. But remember, regardless of finger pinch or whether or not the arrow nock is too tight on the string preventing any rotation in nock throat, the arrow is driven against the plunger/side plate with force. The flex will be initiated, simply due to column loading. But since the arrow is driven against the bow by finger induced lateral movement of the string that flex is initiated in a particular plane, and is done to a greater degree than if shooting with a release.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bender said:


> Partly true. But remember, regardless of finger pinch or whether or not the arrow nock is too tight on the string preventing any rotation in nock throat, the arrow is driven against the plunger/side plate with force. The flex will be initiated, simply due to column loading. But since the arrow is driven against the bow by finger induced lateral movement of the string that flex is initiated in a particular plane, and is done to a greater degree than if shooting with a release.


Very true. The release of the fingers also determines the initial direction of the flex. That, and the fact that the non-forward movement of the string is largely restricted to the lateral direction, determines the direction of the oscillation.

If you take your western style 'traditional' bow, and start releasing with your thumb, which shoves it in the opposite direction, you notice that suddenly your arrows are bouncing of the riser something drastic, which is why thumb release shooters use the other side of the bow.

When you get into shooting arrows on a rest that allows zero contact with the riser (like a drop away), and a riser out of the way enough to provide clearance on the side, and couple that with a mechanical release, and put it center shot (and you can get into a discussion of whether it is mechanically center shot, and then get into an argument based on how you determined that, and all the ways that could possibly be wrong), or simply tune it to fly straight, you'll see that the lateral oscillation, with a properly spined arrow, pretty much disappears, and what you have is mostly a slight vertical oscillation.

This is exactly the scenario with a compound bow.


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