# New archer looking for feedback on form/tips



## Castel (Sep 20, 2021)

Hi all!

I've always been interested in archery/compound bows but never really tried it before. My son (7 y.o.) is obsessed with bows & arrows now and got me thinking about it again. I finally bit the bullet and bought a Bear Cruzer G1 3 weeks ago and I'm glad I did. I've been reading and learning as much as one can in this short time and wanted to post a quick video/pic to get any tips or feedback on my form.

My groupings are not great but slowly improving, within 3-4" for 6 arrows. The video is also the 1st time trying a thumb release, I'm liking it but I was shooting with a wrist release until now. Setup is 26" DL and 55 lbs DW. Thanks much!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Castel said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I've always been interested in archery/compound bows but never really tried it before. My son (7 y.o.) is obsessed with bows & arrows now and got me thinking about it again. I finally bit the bullet and bought a Bear Cruzer G1 3 weeks ago and I'm glad I did. I've been reading and learning as much as one can in this short time and wanted to post a quick video/pic to get any tips or feedback on my form.
> 
> My groupings are not great but slowly improving, within 3-4" for 6 arrows. The video is also the 1st time trying a thumb release, I'm liking it but I was shooting with a wrist release until now. Setup is 26" DL and 55 lbs DW. Thanks much!


Fix bow hand knuckles rotation angle. More like this. Bow hand knuckles need to be 45 degrees clockwise.














Yes, pointer finger knuckle will rise ABOVE the arrow shelf. Purpose for 45 degrees clockwise rotation,
is to get MORE of the thumb muscle onto the grip of the riser, to reduce the amount the thumb muscle oozes past the right edge of the grip.

Only pointer fingertip touching the riser. All remaining fingertips curled into the palm of the bow hand.
This way, the middle finger (curled into palm of bow hand) acts as a spacer to force enough rotation on the knuckles.



Shooter on the left = BAD bow hand grip technique.
Shooter on the right = GOOD bow hand grip technique.

When you fix bow hand grip technique, you will be CLOSER to doing this at 30 yards.


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## Castel (Sep 20, 2021)

Great! Thank you for taking the time to look at the video/picture and providing feedback. I thought I had good hand grip position but I can definitely work on this to improve. I've read through some of your other form feedback analysis and I've tried to apply some of the principles, I definitely appreciate learning from your posts!

I didn't hear otherwise so I'm thinking my draw length seems ok/adequate for me which is good. Thanks again!


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## Spenpet (Jun 16, 2021)

Another suggestion... if you plan on hunting, I would recommend putting your feet closer together... it seems counter intuitive, but the reason is if you are in a tree stand you will have a hard time standing with a wide base... for a beginner you have a great start! Also agree with the person above... don’t ‘grip’ the handle... push against it... maybe touch the tip of your pointer finger to the top of your thumb, otherwise don’t grip...


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## Castel (Sep 20, 2021)

Reporting back! I followed the advice from you Alan and my grip is such that the riser doesn't cross the life line now. I read this morning on how I should curl/relax my bow hand's fingers to keep the thumb muscle relaxed "goose down" just like the picture above so I'll be sure to remember that .

I've improved my groupings and participated in my 1st ever archery tournament this past weekend, Bowhunter Freestyle class. Tons of fun! I made a new video and picture last night to track progress (20 yds target shooting) and see if nuts&bolts, or anyone else, can offer further advice to keep progressing. Right now I'm around 290s over 300 kinda shooter w/ less than a dozen Xs. Looking to get better!

Also, I changed a few things since I realized I'm all in into archery. Sold my previous Bear Cruzer after a month and currently shooting a TRX 34, with a resistance Carter Evolution+ release and GoldTip Ultralight's 400 spine. I got a bow press so got to paper tune it myself, adjust it, etc. I've also taken a couple of lessons with an instructor at my pro shop that helped quite a bit (I thought I wasn't punching the trigger but turns out I was)!









Shooting 3 arrows, same one for each target. Shooting order is bottom left, bottom right, top:















I tried to get video from behind to show release elbow alignment but I had no where to put my phone high enough, also not perfectly aligned with the target, not sure if it helps. Anyways, really appreciate any help/tips to keep improving!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Castel said:


> Reporting back! I followed the advice from you Alan and my grip is such that the riser doesn't cross the life line now. I read this morning on how I should curl/relax my bow hand's fingers to keep the thumb muscle relaxed "goose down" just like the picture above so I'll be sure to remember that .
> 
> I've improved my groupings and participated in my 1st ever archery tournament this past weekend, Bowhunter Freestyle class. Tons of fun! I made a new video and picture last night to track progress (20 yds target shooting) and see if nuts&bolts, or anyone else, can offer further advice to keep progressing. Right now I'm around 290s over 300 kinda shooter w/ less than a dozen Xs. Looking to get better!
> 
> ...


Experiment with bow hand grip techinque.
Suggest you try this.










So, time to start bow hand grip technique TRAINING.
Shoulder high target.
Pin a sheet of cardboard. Pin a nail at the top of the cardboard. Hang a long length of dental floss
and attach something heavy to the end of the dental floss.

You are going to try to SPLIT the dental floss, shooting from only 2 yards away, just 6 feet.










Close, but not good enough. No moving the arrow rest. NO moving the sight pins windage.
ONLY adjust your bow hand grip technique, play with more clockwise rotation on the knuckles.
Make the bow hand thumb muscle MORE soft, more relaxed.
RELAX wrist so the bend of back of hand better matches the grip angle.
COMPLETELy relax the forearm muscles (bow arm side).

PLAY with sideways pressure between thumb and side of riser.
YES, you can experiment with SIDEWAYS squeeze of the thumb, in 1/10ths of ounces
to influence WHERE your bareshaft hits, and finally SPLIT the dental floss.



















when you master THIS exercise, you will tighten up your sideways miss pattern.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

You have room to further rotate left wrist MORE clockwise.
See if this will shrink the horizontal miss pattern.










You have MUCh room to shrink the vertical miss pattern.

Fire 3 fletched arrows and at LEAST one bareshaft all aimed at same x-ring at 20 yards/18 meters.
Tune the cam sync (many call this cam timing) until you can do THIS.










This is me, shooting two fletched and one bareshaft at 20 yards//18 meters.
Adjust ONE cable end loop, on top cam, change twists by the half twist...adding direction and removing direction
until you can do this.










Fire a bareshaft at the x-ring, at the top edge of the masking tape. Split the top edge of masking tape, half of the arrow is above top edge of masking tape, half of the arrow is below the top edge of masking tape.

So, to not kill my bareshaft, I aimed at top left corner of masking tape. Adjust ONE cable end loop on top cam, by the half twist, until your fletched arrow is within 1/16th inch, say 2 mm, same height of impact, for the bareshaft and fletched. Try to get half of the fletched arrow above the top edge of masking tape, and half the fletched arrow below the top edge of masking tape.

If you don't have access to 20 yards, then,
try THIS at 7 yards.




























Sight in so your fletched arrow hits the center of the x-ring at 7 yards in your garage.
Pull out the fletched arrow.
Now fire a bareshaft. My first try, I missed right...hole B1.
So, second try, I nailed the same hole...bareshaft hits inside fletched arrow hole.










TUNE arrow rest sideways in REALLY tiny amount, to correct your horizontal miss pattern.
TUNE one cable end loop on the top cam, half twist adjustments, to correct your VERTICAL miss pattern.

GOAL is to put a fletched arrow and a bareshaft arrow into the same hole.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

When you can put a fletched arrow and a bareshaft arrow into the same hole at 7 yards...



















then, your 20 yd groups will look like this.


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## Castel (Sep 20, 2021)

Awesome, thank you! I'll work on the dental floss drill and adjust bow hand grip, this gives me something to "master" . Couple of questions though!

1. I think a lot of the sideways misses comes from shaking a bit sometimes when pulling through the shot. As I increase tension for the resistance release to fire it feels solid but sometimes it feels like it's further away and induces some "slight shaking". I think this is due to variations on my form/anchor maybe? It should probably feel the the same always. I think my stance/form is mostly ok, maybe a bit leaning back but I didn't see you comment on it or DL so probably ok? I've followed your guidelines of elbow tip, wrist, hand grip straight line, etc.

My stance is also quite open, left big toe to middle of right foot. This is because drawing with eyes closed showed me this is naturally where I point/aim (following test from a book).

2. For the masking tape vertical adjustment, the bow is paper tuned vertically and timing is in-sync exactly. For bareshaft vs fletched vertical POI, is it ok to adjust rest height slightly instead of changing timing, any downsides to this?

I've learnt a lot in the last 4 months but want to keep improving. Thanks again Alan!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Castel said:


> Awesome, thank you! I'll work on the dental floss drill and adjust bow hand grip, this gives me something to "master" . Couple of questions though!
> 
> 2. For the masking tape vertical adjustment, the bow is paper tuned vertically and timing is in-sync exactly. For bareshaft vs fletched vertical POI, is it ok to adjust rest height slightly instead of changing timing, any downsides to this?
> 
> I've learnt a lot in the last 4 months but want to keep improving. Thanks again Alan!


changing the REST height is not the same as changing bow cam "timing".
Don't be lazy. Do it the right way.

The arrow rest is a ski jump, just a ramp.
MOving the arrow rest up or down, does NOTHING, ZERO to change the bending for the upper limb and lower limb.
Changing cam "timing" changes how much each limb BENDS.

If the frame on a car is bent in an accident, can't I just loosen the lock down bolt on the steering wheel
and if the car pulls crooked left on the highway, can't I just re-install the steering wheel CROOKED? You could,
but this is not a REAL fix. UN-bend the frame at a body shop, and then, the car will track straight at highway speeds.

So, you get THIS result at 20 yards.



Can't I fix that with only moving my arrow rest?
I don't have a bow press. So, I can only move my arrow rest up or down, myself.
Well, you CAN move the arrow rest to FIX THIS at ONE distance. 20 yards.



You are compensating for NO bow press,
and don't have TIME to goto someone with a bow press
so, the limbs are UN-balanced, and ONE limb is working too hard
and one limb is working NOT hard enough,
cuz the cam "timing" is no good,
and you can FAKE the results at ONE distance....say tuning at 20 yards.

If you shoot ANy other distance,
you will not get THIS result...at 30 yards.



WHY not? If I get GREAT groups at 20 yards, then, I will get GREAT groups at 30 yards too!
Nope.
YOu skipped the bow press
so you SKIPPED tuning for LEVEL nock travel (that means FIXING the cam "TIMING")
so you still do not have LEVEL nock travel
and you FAKED the results at ONE distance 20 yards.

TEST your results at 20 yards, at 30 yards, at 40 yards
and find the tweaks to CAM TIMING (really, it's cam sync)
so you adjust the cam TIMING so things work at 20 yards....so your results are GOOD enough at 20 yards.

THEN, you do it all over again...it's call TUNING for best results at 30 yards.
THE requirements are finer, so you might had to adjust the cam timing AGAIN for best results at 30 yards.

Maybe you change the TWISTS in one cable by 3 twists to get "good enough" results at 20 yards.
Then, at 30 yards, you had to change, fine tune the cam TIMNG by 1 twist, to get "good enough results" at 30 yards.

THEN, at 40 yards, you found the SWEET spot for cam TIMING, needed a 1/2 twist adjustment
to get "good enough results" at 40 yards.

As the distance gets longer,
the adjustments to cam TIMING get smaller.

When you fine tune the cam TIMING for 20 yards, for 30 yards, for 40 yards...

NOW you go shoot groups at 60 yards.
NOW we group tune the arrow rest.
WHAT is group tuning an arrow rest?
THAT means you shoot long range, say 60 yards
and NOW you micro-adjust the arrow rest, say the thickness of a sheet of paper (up-down adjust)
and NOW you micro-adjust the arrow rest, say the thickness of a sheet of paper (left-right adjust)...

bout THIS much
when GROUP tuning your fletched arrow groups, shooting at 60 yards.



You shoot groups at 60 yards.
Put a sheet of paper, with scotch tape onto your arrow rest. Use a Bic Pen and draw a vertical line.
Slice the paper at the seam (horizontal seam).
Adjust the arrow rest THIS MUCH, when GROUP tuning at 60 yards....for left-right miss pattern.








This group was shot with a recurve at 76 yards.










The x-ring on the 122 cm target is 2.40 inches. That is a 1.2 inch diameter group at 76 yards, with a RECURVE bow.
So, this is what a recurve shooter (olympic class) can do.
So, fix the cam TIMING at 20 yards, and save tiny adjustments to the arrow rest for group tuning at 60 yards.


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## Castel (Sep 20, 2021)

Makes sense! Similar to changing top hats/shimming before micro adjusting the rest. Thanks for all the pictures and info. I'll get working on the dental floss drill 1st!


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## CharlieHarvey (Dec 13, 2008)

Some valuable info right there.


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