# Insert Weight vs. Tip Weight?



## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

If you were trying to build a high foc arrow, which way would you lean? Heavy brass insert or standard aluminum insert with heavy tip weight?

My thought is a heavy brass insert would allow you a wider choice of tip/ broadhead options (100, 125, 150 etc), but a standard insert with super heavy tip might be more effective in "breaking down" a stiffer arrow's dynamic spine because the tip (say 200 gr) is so long.

In other words, an arrow with 100gr brass insert plus 125 gr tip will behave differently than the same arrow with a 25 gr. aluminum insert with a 200 gr tip.

Am I wrong on this?

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kali4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Great question, looking for some educated responses on this. I was recently wondering the same thing...


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I've tried everything from shaft inserts, filling the shaft with coffee grounds, heavy brass inserts, GoldTip's weight systems for inserts and nock end, footing the front and rear with aluminum shafting all the way to just loading the front with heavy field tips or broadheads. 

I've come to the conclusion (right or wrong) that carbon shafts are so tolerant of front loading that there's no need to do anything else. For me (right now), just heavy load the front end to get the weight I'm looking with a full length shaft and start tuning and trimming from there. I usually end up, for deer sized critters at 175 grains up front, but for moose and elk I've done 200 to 250. IIRC, Bob Morrison even talked about loading the front to 300 gains without issue.


----------



## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Double tap...


----------



## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I've tried everything from shaft inserts, filling the shaft with coffee grounds, heavy brass inserts, GoldTip's weight systems for inserts and nock end, footing the front and rear with aluminum shafting all the way to just loading the front with heavy field tips or broadheads.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion (right or wrong) that *carbon shafts are so tolerant of front loading* that there's no need to do anything else. For me (right now), just heavy load the front end to get the weight I'm looking with a full length shaft and start tuning and trimming from there. I usually end up, for deer sized critters at 175 grains up front, but for moose and elk I've done 200 to 250. IIRC, Bob Morrison even talked about loading the front to 300 gains without issue.


Wondering if you've encountered the same thing, but I've noticed they're tolerant of adding tip weight, but very finicky once you start trimming. I think Jimmy Blackmon did a video where he shot all sorts of different tip weights with surprising results.


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

> ...In other words, an arrow with 100gr brass insert plus 125 gr tip will behave differently than the same arrow with a 25 gr. aluminum insert with a 200 gr tip.
> 
> Am I wrong on this?


I've not noticed that to be the case. You're only talking about the last inch and half of the shaft. I dare guess that 25 grains difference on the tip would equal any dynamic change in the spine. No data; just a guess.


----------



## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

The root of my question stems from the fact that heavy tips end up so long, thereby (in my mind) adding more leverage outside the shaft, whereas an insert is inside the shaft.

I've even experimented with two 100 grain brass inserts to REALLY add weight, but all it did was make the first 3 inches of the shaft non-flexible. Stiffened up the shaft.

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Don't know where we're headed from here, but I used to think I had to cut all my shafts so to have about 1/2 to 3/4" beyond the back of the bow when I was at full draw. The last 15 years or so, I don't care how long the arrow is. For years I just set up my hunting and 3D rigs to have a 30 yard point-on. I'd do whatever I needed to do to get it. I don't claim to be a good shot, but I don't have to ever worry about what my gaps are supposed to look/feel like. More recently, I've been shooting a fixed crawl and taken my point-on down to 25 yards.



> ...but all it did was make the first 3 inches of the shaft non-flexible. Stiffened up the shaft.


I wonder.... since your shaft stiffened, what would have happened if you'd gone to a weaker spined shaft?


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I always tune my arrows like Jim mentioned 

I always shoot 225ish up front 

I start with a full length shaft and cut accordingly 

I use either a 100 grain insert and a 125 grain head or in the case of the Simmons interceptor/treeshark I go to a 40 grain insert and a the 190 grain head to get me close to the 225 mark 

I have not noticed a difference in the way they fly 

I like the 225 weight for a few reasons

Paired with the 100 grain insert there are many great 125 grain heads on the market including great field points and broadheads 

I use TopHat inserts and points


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Sauk Mountain said:


> Wondering if you've encountered the same thing, but I've noticed they're tolerant of adding tip weight, *but very finicky once you start trimming*...


Yeah... I screwed up one time, that's why I quit worrying about the length. 

I was going on a moose hunt in Newfoundland; decided I was going to use .400 shafts with 250 grains up front. Two things happened: I ended up with a weak arrow and it came in 50 grains light. Bummer! So.... I had to correct the issue by using those GoldTip rear weights. Maybe you've seen them; I'll post a picture. Anyway... that put me to weight and stiffened the spine to near perfect. Blew right thru that 3 1/2 year old bull. 

I'd have been better off had I left the shaft longer, used .340 spine and loaded the front a little more--I think.


----------



## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I wonder.... since your shaft stiffened, what would have happened if you'd gone to a weaker spined shaft?


Certainly would have helped. I think the point I was trying to make in that scenario is this: I started with a stiffer shaft, knowing I'd add 200 gr of insert to try and "break" down the spine to what it should be. But I kinda shot myself in the foot, because that extra 1.5" long insert in the shaft prevented the arrow from flexing and re-stiffened the spine.

Emrah 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

You might try to add more tip weight and see what happens. At any rate, I think you've started a very interesting discussion here. I hope more folks weigh in. I'd like to hear more thoughts and experiences.


----------



## olddogrib (Apr 4, 2014)

Emrah, IMHO you are correct....any long, tight insert seems to stiffen spine like a footing, but there are plenty that will disagree. Let me put it another way. Any attempt I've made to convert a tuned non-EFOC arrow to an EFOC one by any short-cut, i.e. installing long 100-grain brass inserts and then optimizing point weight have been total failures. I believe the "dalai lama" of UEFOC (Dr. Ed Ashby) tutorials will pretty much corroborate this. As Jim and Joe point out...the only right way is the tedious one. Start out full length with the appropriate (initially slightly weak) spine and point weight you want to end up with and trim tortuously small amounts. I just can't afford that kind of attention drain at my advanced age and I never kill anything but "nanny goat sized" does anyway, lol. I've found that reasonable FOC arrows meet my needs just fine. If I really wanted my headstone to read "he finally got it right", I'd devote more time and brain cells to it!


----------



## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

I have 2 dozen of the same arrows. One has a 50g inserts and I shoot 250g heads. The other has 100g inserts (doubled 50g hit inserts) and use 200g heads. I did this because my broadheads are either 200 or 250g depending on which I select. Both sets fly the same from the same bow. I killed 3 deer last year with the 200g set up and had 2 holes in all of the deer. So if I understood your original question emrah, my experience is that you can substitute insert weight for tip weight to get the same results.


----------



## carmanusa (Jan 9, 2009)

Great thread! I follow your question and never really gave it much thought, as I went with 500's that fly great with standard inserts and 150 gr tips but wanted to shoot 50 gr inserts to load that front end so figured I'd just cut the shaft dn and then add the Insert to weaken it but not doing it enough so then have to keep going shorter and changes the overall dynamics altogether leading me to think I should stay at my standard inserts and lower foc? Thus adding another element to the tuning process, I think your on to something here.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

One thing I have found with long inserts. If the insert goes past your plunger, center/contact point it will affect spine.

I haven't researched it, but I would guess as stiff spot at the front node is what makes it flex differently.


----------



## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't believe a word any of you said. What's Ben think!!!

Bowmania


----------



## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Bowmania said:


> I don't believe a word any of you said. What's Ben think!!!
> 
> Bowmania


It only works if you close your eyes and instinctively will the arrow down range while shooting a recurve with a drop away rest and plunger.

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Bowmania said:


> I don't believe a word any of you said. What's Ben think!!!
> 
> Bowmania





emrah said:


> It only works if you close your eyes and instinctively will the arrow down range while shooting a recurve with a drop away rest and plunger.
> 
> Emrah


You two are incorrigible.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

Does Ben think??? Wouldn't that violate the laws of instinct?


----------



## carmanusa (Jan 9, 2009)

carmanusa said:


> Great thread! I follow your question and never really gave it much thought, as I went with 500's that fly great with standard inserts and 150 gr tips but wanted to shoot 50 gr inserts to load that front end so figured I'd just cut the shaft dn and then add the Insert to weaken it but not doing it enough so then have to keep going shorter and changes the overall dynamics altogether leading me to think I should stay at my standard inserts and lower foc? Thus adding another element to the tuning process, I think your on to something here.


I apologize for not being clear in my post and went back and read it again after thinking about it, I had bought some 500's and wanted to get to a heavier foc so using the standard insert that was in the shaft I started upping the tip weight using the test pkg and then found the shaft getting weaker and then running this on the 3riversdynamic spine calculator I tried to get a ballpark legnth combo I could run to have a nice legnth arrow (was not wanting to shoot full legnth @ 26" draw) with some good foc, so got to where I thought I needed to be and made cuts to the point I found about a 250 gr on the front gave the reaction I was looking for, so then put in (that time a 100 gr) insert and put on the 150 gr tip, since I found the 250 gr tip before to be the best fit, and found that I was showing a little stiffer reaction than just moments before, so got discouraged unsure about form etc, but possibly seeing the reaction you are questioning, so on this new set of shafts I just got going to try a 50 gr insert and will start using them and the 150 gr tip I want from the beginning of the tuning process to get the same reaction from the get go as I am trying to get the shafts to work with 150 gr tips to avoid getting new broad heads? well see?


----------



## TNKnoxville (Dec 16, 2011)

Since I have a long draw length I leave my arrows 32". For my Tall Tines (51 [email protected] 31") I use 100 grain insert and a 200 grain point/broadhead. Since I like a heavier arrow I used 0.340's and just played with the point weight until I get good flight. In the past I played with lots of options. Since I like using Ace 165's with 31 grain inserts it's a perfect combo. This worked very well for my Schafer's also. Figured why fight it if it works!!!!!!


----------



## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Tag


----------

