# Shift feet when shooting 5 spot?



## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

Saw a resurrected post on this in the general section. Here's my take on it. Any thoughts? ??

5 spot target is 20 yards away. Distance from the center of the right and left bottom target is 9 3/4". If you have an even stance with feet 18" apart, how much would you have to move your foot to make that adjustment? Get your triangles and school math books out... Pythagoras says 1/4". So should you move your foot 1/8" to adjust from the right spots to the center spot? I'm not buying that one.

*Would you expect opening/closing stance by 1/4" to make a difference in your score? Well, honestly I'm not sure. It would be interesting to measure how variable your stance is each time you step up to the line. Certainly, outdoor conditions make exactly reproducible footing within 1/4" difficult.

I shoot the bottom right target first but, when I step to the line and set my stance, I concentrate on the center spot. I don't move my feet as I shoot the target. Don't need the extra distraction of trying to move my toe 1/8". But I will point out that in the past I would concentrate on the first spot I was shooting (the bottom right) when I set my stance. Staring at the center spot when setting my stance works better for me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

everyone is a little different. spots is a game of consistency and small differences. a small change in footing changes the dynamics of your shot in through your body. without that small change, you might still score decently, but it might make the difference between consistent X's and not consistent X's..... hitting the center, or inside-out more often than cutting a line. cutting a line means you're that much closer to missing the x. 
point is, it wouldn't be a well known element of spot shooting form detail, if it didn't hold any value. I've shot spots for 40 years, and I know way more guys that needed that little repositioning than guys that didn't need it and I've seen it help way more guys' scores, that not help them.
just because you may not need it, doesn't negate it's value.
another age old detail, is to trace around your feet when you start shooting, and watch if , when you get into the round a few ends, you are still in that tracing, as you go from side to side, or from the beginning of the round to the end, for that matter.....most people change and don't realize they do. they start out in one position, and then adjust, as their body gets used to shooting, changing the dynamics of their form, ever so slightly, according to how well the good shots are hitting the x ring. that change usually comes as they switch from one side to the other.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Good one, ron...


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## BearArcher1980 (Apr 14, 2012)

I have tried changing my footing for the different spots and haven't noticed any difference than when I stand squared off to the target. I seem to shoot better when squared off rather than an open stance. That's just me though. 
I have seen some people change from spot to spot. 
Some keep an open stance and it works for them. Try the different stances and find the one that brings out the best consistency for you and your body.
Some coaches teach the closed off stance, some teach the open stance, its just a matter of finding what fits you.


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## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

ron w said:


> everyone is a little different. spots is a game of consistency and small differences. a small change in footing changes the dynamics of your shot in through your body. without that small change, you might still score decently, but it might make the difference between consistent X's and not consistent X's..... hitting the center, or inside-out more often than cutting a line. cutting a line means you're that much closer to missing the x.
> point is, it wouldn't be a well known element of spot shooting form detail, if it didn't hold any value. I've shot spots for 40 years, and I know way more guys that needed that little repositioning than guys that didn't need it and I've seen it help way more guys' scores, that not help them.
> just because you may not need it, doesn't negate it's value.
> another age old detail, is to trace around your feet when you start shooting, and watch if , when you get into the round a few ends, you are still in that tracing, as you go from side to side, or from the beginning of the round to the end, for that matter.....most people change and don't realize they do. they start out in one position, and then adjust, as their body gets used to shooting, changing the dynamics of their form, ever so slightly, according to how well the good shots are hitting the x ring. that change usually comes as they switch from one side to the other.


I'm certainly not negating the value of adjusting stance. Just thinking out loud and trying to stimulate some discussion. I'm a good shooter but not a great one... Always looking to learn. Would be interesting to know how many top shooters adjust stance and how many don't. 1/8" isn't much but maybe that's what it takes. No question, measuring repeatability of foot position would be a good little study.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that study has been done so many years ago, I can remember that it was an accepted detail of form from the very first 5 spot targets we shot at, when the NFAA first changed to 5 spot targets.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Shift feet when shooting 5 spot?
YEs when going to collect my arrows ;
Like every thing in archery let your sub con do the work. This means you need to KNOW how your stance will effect your shot , just as every other aspect in archery you will need to ingrain the cause and effect into your brain until it become 100% natural. That means solid cognitive training on stance and its effects.

In short you will most likely not be able to say what your feet were doing after you shoot a 60X in competition - FLOW


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

If you watch the video from the men's shootoff at last year's Vegas shoot, you'll be amazed at the amount of foot shifting going on between ends--I know I was. These are the best of the best shooters out there and have their DL adjusted to a half twist or so. So, it becomes understandable that it would be a great benefit, perhaps even necessity, for shooters at that level to maintain their finely-tuned DL by making those miniscule position changes for each spot shot.

Me, I'm not yet at the level where it makes any difference, so I remain fairly squared off to the target, but in the future, as my indoor scores evolve, it is likely something I will consider adding to my routine. :wink:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

most uninitiated shooters, take way to a rigid attitude about stance. there a re certain specific rules about what is better or worse, but essentially, a comfortable , relaxed (very important word, here) stance that isn't much different than when you're just "standing there" will result in the most repeatable and consistent base for your shooting.
for some reason, it is common to see people over bow them selves and the make their stance rigid and tense, in order to support the work necessary to draw and shoot their high poundage.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> most uninitiated shooters, take way to a rigid attitude about stance. there a re certain specific rules about what is better or worse, but essentially, a comfortable , relaxed (very important word, here) stance that isn't much different than when you're just "standing there" will result in the most repeatable and consistent base for your shooting.
> for some reason, it is common to see people over bow them selves and the make their stance rigid and tense, in order to support the work necessary to draw and shoot their high poundage.


_Relaxed_ can't be said enough....


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

SonnyThomas said:


> _Relaxed_ can't be said enough....



I am having and have been having doubts about this for a good long while now. Can you define relaxed stance , relaxed full draw position ? 
How easy is it to reproduce or even repeat something that is objective and difficult at best to communicate ? How do you visualize relaxed . 

How relaxed will you be in the shoot offs in Vegas for the first time ? So now I need to learn another skill set out side of shooting, being relaxed when I have a body full adrenaline pumping thru me , this is near Psychopathic to be relaxed under theses situations. 
I have been able to clean Vegas faces since about 15 months after I picked up a bow in a relaxed state on my own terms , with no pressure. 
Add pressure , remove relaxed , no more clean faces.
Add a little bit of pressure now I am 75% relaxed - shucks I don't practice 75% relaxed now what ? 
What I made that shot and I am now moving on , 44% relaxed shot - ah geez 

Strong aggressive shots that have meaning and exact feeling are easy to repeat , teach and work under pressure.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bow fitted properly holding at full draw is almost just like standing there. I stand erect. I lock my knees. Still, no real body stress. Aggression of shot is ingrained. Dealing with pressure in competition is something that has to be dealt with and those who can do pretty good.
Person asks the coach what is the best shot. Coach says; "Anybody." I answered; "The one you don't think about." I got a "atta boy." Ain't saying was right, but..... Do you think or do you react? 

Practicing at home and shooting local hole-in-the-wall indoor ranges had no real pressure. But then thrown to the "dogs" at this IAA sanctioned event and the dread Vegas face. Stacked on the line like sardines in can. Some jerk belches out my arrows in my quiver are invading his space. Some one up the line nailed the steel exit door with a arrow that sounded like a shotgun going off. The same jerk beside me at the target Screams to scorer; "Don't touch that arrow!!!!" Screams like at the top of his lungs. The yo-yo up the line shotguns another arrow into the steel exit door...And just because I shot the guy's target next to me doesn't mean that I was rattled....Lord! I never shot another Indoor for 3 years.... Okay, I was rattled... The only thing that made me come back was I was ticked off. Longer story, but I got the job done....


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## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

You should never have to change your stance at 20 yards, flat or up hill or down hill doesn't matter, all of your positioning is done through the waist, always bend at the waist, most shooters struggle with this rather than twisting at the waist they shift their shoulders, this puts the alignment out of whack.
Just remember always bend at the waist keep your basic T form intact.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

heres what I know about feet position on indoor shooting. For a rt handed shooter. 

if your shooting lane is not square with your target youll hit a little off center.
If your to far left youll hit a little to the left. so scoot over toward the right a little.
If your to far right youll hit a little to the right and scoot over left a little. 

We often see one of our spots that hits perfect every time, the one that ends up with a hole in the center and it seems you cant miss that spot. That spot is the one with perfect alignment for you at that shooting lane. I shoot my shots on the left and the middle then scoot a fuzz to the right and shoot my shots on the right. If I do not scoot over a fuzz on my right side targets ill eat the line out of the left of the x and needlessly miss x's. 

Blue X


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Recently, I went back to shooting a hinge.
My bow was set up very well for me with my T handle release, and I shot that release off of the Limb stops on my bow (My bow has both adjustable limb stops and adjustable cable stops)
I started shooting the hinge, and didn't like the hard back wall the limb stops gave me with the hinge, so I adjusted the cable stops to a lower let off position, and left the limb stops alone...meaning the limb stops were no longer hitting.
Shooting a 5 spot, I suddenly had a hard time hitting the X on the lower left hand side of the target...the upper left was kinda iffy, but the rest were fine.
Turns out that the small adjustment in DL caused by moving the cable stop was enough that my DL was now just a little short. This didn't hurt on the rest of the targets, but shooting the left side (without shifting feet) meant I was shooting a slightly more closed stance (making the bow feel even shorter).
Moving my left foot back about 2" instantly cured the issues I was having with this target. Now I shoot a slightly open stance, and I will move BOTH feet when shooting a 5 spot target (shoot both left, move forward, shoot middle, move forward, shoot right side targets).
I think it has made a significant difference.
I do practice mostly at 15 yards, so the change in angle is a little greater, but I figure if you keep square to your target and the line for each shot, it won't matter the distance between targets as your never shooting at an angle.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

No Feet were shifted in this test .
The tell tale is #1 and #2 in the blue rings - Theses are shots number 31 and 32 - My drift is is easier to see when higher up on the target face -
Unitll fairly recently I made a concise effort not to shift my putters. I now allow my sub con to set my allignment every shot , I notice my feet will move to natural alignment if I allow them - Ingrained in the membrane 
I know wher I stand on this subject -


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Blue X said:


> heres what I know about feet position on indoor shooting. For a rt handed shooter.
> 
> if your shooting lane is not square with your target youll hit a little off center.
> If your to far left youll hit a little to the left. so scoot over toward the right a little.
> ...


 EXACTELY !!!.
those small shifts modify the tension in your anatomy to align it better with the target your shooting. if you think you shouldn't be shifting your stance, you don't fully understand the dynamics of a well made shot.
some times, you don't discover this, until you have a very well developed execution, because it is all about "pointing that well developed execution in....exactly.... the right direction".
in example, a 1/8" shift, in the alignment between anatomical tension and the actual direction of flight mathematically and mechanically projects, to roughly 3/4 inch in POI. almost one side of the X-ring to the other.
now there's what....9 inches between spots on 5 spot target, that extrapolates to roughly 1-1/4 inch shift at the shooting line. the shift doesn't end up that big, but the math illustrates that the need for a shift, is legitimate. it is one of the aspects that can make 3d difficult, with all the varied footing and no real shooting line to help get your alignment. many shots you make, that felt like a good shot and end up in the 8 ring, are because of this....we've all had those !.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I start on left go to middle and then shift on right side targets. I have found I will hit left side line x if I don't. Not saying everyone has to but I know for me it works.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

ron w said:


> now there's what....9 inches between spots on 5 spot target, that extrapolates to roughly 1-1/4 inch shift at the shooting line.


Actually, if your sight is 1 yard from your eye and the target is 20 yards away, a 9" shift at the target would mean a 9/20" shift of your bow arm/upper body, less than half an inch. If your feet are about 12" apart, then that translates to a correction of your feet of 9/60", or a bit over 1/8". I seriously doubt if anyone can repeat that every time they go to the line unless they actually put foot markers down, and I've never seen anyone do that. And even if you had toe stops on the ground, your feet slip around in your shoes more than that.

So yeah, cbmac's math is right.

Anyone who shifts their feet in going from the right to left side of a 5-spot is doing it purely for the psychological "comfort". If you feel more comfortable doing it, great, but if you feel you _*have*_ to do it or you _*will*_ lose accuracy, I'd suggest you don't ever try field or 3D shooting.


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## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

Thanks for the comments Stash. Glad you agree with the math - when I see people shifting stance an inch or more... I like your thoughts on psychological comfort. 

Clearly some strong opposing positions on this issue.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Not disputing the math, but in my circumstance for example, the shorter draw of my bow was magnified by the ever so slightly closed stance (compared to the right side targets) enough to cause an accuracy issue.
I guess this would mean people who are not just right on their draw lengths might notice this more.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I said, the shift extrapolates to roughly 1-1/4 inches, but it doesn't end up being that big at your feet. it's more of a suggestive shift, just enough to change the alignment of your dynamics at the top of your body, where the bow is ....but necessary. my post was an "illustrative analogy" that shows the importance of shifting your feet to align the dynamics of the shot execution with the intended direction of the arrow. the exact measurement of the shift, is of no importance, because everyone is a little different, what is important, is fact that a small shift does indeed, change the dynamic alignment of the shot's path. the numbers a re just an application to give the illustration some visible value.
if you aren't careful and don't make this point clear this clear, you will have people out there, measuring how much their footing shifts and calling you a liar because they don't shift what your illustration says. 
that the problem with trying to explain something with written "documentation", as soon as it's posted, it is "gospel" in some people's eyes. as I've said before, these are issues that can't be discussed in short to the point posts, because people have gotten so used to answers on the internet being short and to the exact point, which doesn't leave any room for variation.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahly said:


> Not disputing the math, but in my circumstance for example, the shorter draw of my bow was magnified by the ever so slightly closed stance (compared to the right side targets) enough to cause an accuracy issue.
> I guess this would mean people who are not just right on their draw lengths might notice this more.


 Mahly, you are exactly right.
in addition, an incorrect draw length will influence that issue in both directions, short draw length will make opposite problems to long draw length, as far as right and left alignment goes. as I've said before, every element of your shot process, supports another element, they all have to be right, inorder for the shot to go well.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlielos said:


> You should never have to change your stance at 20 yards, flat or up hill or down hill doesn't matter, all of your positioning is done through the waist, always bend at the waist, most shooters struggle with this rather than twisting at the waist they shift their shoulders, this puts the alignment out of whack.
> Just remember always bend at the waist keep your basic T form intact.


Just stumbling around reading. I can't really agree that your stance remains the same on up hill or down hill footing. Steep hills require foot placement, usually wider, to give center of balance. I do agree that feet set for balance, bending at the waist is easier accomplished.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"keeping your basic T-form intact" means...shifting your feet, rather than twisting your body !. when you shift your feet, nothing about your body changes, so your "T-form", stays intact.....that's the whole reason for shifting your feet, in spot shooting..


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

It only takes mm's to get your shoulders out of alignment. Yalls math is good no doubt but moving your feet have nothing to do with those measurements. Its about 2 things shoulder alignment thru the back and the circle. A mm is all it takes in the form to miss an x. The whole deal about shifting feet is more about what your subconscious mind sees. if your crooked on the line your mind will see an oblique and not a circle. you say thats not enough to relize, well your mind loves to center. Well the center on an oblique is to the close side and youll eat the close side out and miss an x if you dont move yourself a fuzz to still subconsciously see a full circle.

Blue X


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And in spot shooting your station doesn't always line up with the target. Adjustment may needed and maybe not stance, but sight adjustment.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it's about producing the same dynamics of tension on the right target as well as the left target....simple as that. by not moving your feet, you change the relationship of that dynamic,....the one thing that should not change,..... between sides of the target and that affects the entire shot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Blue X said:


> It only takes mm's to get your shoulders out of alignment. Yalls math is good no doubt but moving your feet have nothing to do with those measurements. Its about 2 things shoulder alignment thru the back and the circle. A mm is all it takes in the form to miss an x. The whole deal about shifting feet is more about what your subconscious mind sees. if your crooked on the line your mind will see an oblique and not a circle. you say thats not enough to relize, well your mind loves to center. Well the center on an oblique is to the close side and youll eat the close side out and miss an x if you dont move yourself a fuzz to still subconsciously see a full circle.
> 
> Blue X


???? Crooked stance may off balance the shot, angular thing, give different impact, but oval target, oblique? I had to try. Often at the shop I would use the entire 32 foot wide target wall from 20 and 30 yards. Inside the practice floor, crisscross would have extreme of say, 30 feet corner to corner.... Outside the target range, 30 yards, center to window would be 16 feet right or left. Yes, bull's eyes and X rings would be chewed left and right.
Tried this afternoon, outside, if that makes a difference. 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards. 15 and 20 yards I stood left 2 feet (1 full station width). Arrow were chewing on the left side of the X ring, not bad, but...Shot from 25 yards to establish center - good. Moved back to 30 yards and moved 4 feet right over the course of 5 arrows - didn't come out like I wanted, but.... Arrows #3 and #5 (center and upper right) were shot again from direct line centered to target and do look more centered and straighter into target.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Missed a pic. This is the 20 yard target from straight on. Center arrow the focus. All arrows showing as should be, left arrows showing right side and right arrows showing left side, to prove square (?) to each other.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

ron w said:


> most uninitiated shooters, take way to a rigid attitude about stance...
> for some reason, it is common to see people over bow themselves and the make their stance rigid and tense, in order to support the work necessary to draw and shoot their high poundage.


Full agreement with this. As I am officially a senior by most all definitions, I have been slowly backing the poundage of my bows down. Every so often I rebel and crank them back up, but for competition the lower weight is much better, and encourages much more practice.

But what if I want to pull more for hunting? The lighter bow STILL builds muscle mass and tone, and makes pulling the heavier weight better as a step up. Fact is, the comp bow, set down in the mid-50s will do the job for hunting just fine. Force of habit keeps me shooting nearly 70 when hunting. That's down from ~80lbs 25 years ago.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Blue X said:


> It only takes mm's to get your shoulders out of alignment. Yalls math is good no doubt but moving your feet have nothing to do with those measurements. Its about 2 things shoulder alignment thru the back and the circle. A mm is all it takes in the form to miss an x. The whole deal about shifting feet is more about what your subconscious mind sees. if your crooked on the line your mind will see an oblique and not a circle. you say thats not enough to relize, well your mind loves to center. Well the center on an oblique is to the close side and youll eat the close side out and miss an x if you dont move yourself a fuzz to still subconsciously see a full circle.
> 
> Blue X



YEs sirs , let your brain do this work for ya - your trained body will naturally attack the target in the most efficant manner -


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## mprus (Oct 11, 2009)

montigre said:


> If you watch the video from the men's shootoff at last year's Vegas shoot, you'll be amazed at the amount of foot shifting going on between ends--I know I was. These are the best of the best shooters out there and have their DL adjusted to a half twist or so. So, it becomes understandable that it would be a great benefit, perhaps even necessity, for shooters at that level to maintain their finely-tuned DL by making those miniscule position changes for each spot shot.
> 
> Me, I'm not yet at the level where it makes any difference, so I remain fairly squared off to the target, but in the future, as my indoor scores evolve, it is likely something I will consider adding to my routine. 😉


I'm assuming they're making those changes between ends though, not between every shot?!


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