# Why instinctive?



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


----------



## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


Similar to catching fish with a fly line and dry-fly vice dynamite - it requires a lot more skill, focus and work to trick a wary trout into taking a dry fly, which increases the challenge and hence the reward for landing a nice fish. You can catch more fish with dynamite, so why spend all that time and money on fly-fishing gear and hours of casting? It's the journey. 

Considering the Pope quote you have at the bottom of your windows, I'm surprised you are asking this question.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

i shoot instinctive and its extremely fun, and i consistently have been shooting 2-5'' groups at 30 yards and 1-4'' groups at 20....my question to you is, why not shoot instinctive...


----------



## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?



Mental relaxation.

If someone told me that I absolutely had to learn gaps, and to be good at accurate range estimation- and that If I changed arrow length, or weight, I'd have to re-learn new gaps, etc., I probably wouldn't do it.

I'd rather get a rangefinder and use sights at that point. And imo- the defeats the simplicity of two sticks and a string. The tip of the arrow is comparatively a pretty inefficient "sight".

If my goal was to put as many arrows in the X as I could, I wouldn't waste my time shooting trad, I'd get a wheelbow.

And imo, this is just plain cool-





BM


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> i shoot instinctive and its extremely fun, and i consistently have been shooting 2-5'' groups at 30 yards and 1-4'' groups at 20....my question to you is, why not shoot instinctive...


So you are the guy that is a good instinctive shooter. 1-4" groups at 20 yards would win Nationals, excellent shooting. - I don't do it because it is not consistent for me - sure at 10 yards I can fling them down there into a decent group, but at 30 it's all over - and when I miss, I don't know how I was aiming to make an adjustment.

As for my quote - above all making an accurate shot is paramount for me. Making a poor shot so I can say that I did it "such and such method" is foolish. I enjoy the equipment limitations - and making the most of those limitations.

I like to fly fish, but I use a sinking line and catch way more fish........Why? Because the fish are under the surface.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

as arronax said it is more relaxing, i find myself pretty decently accurate, and it kills me when other archers say you must learn gap or you are gap instinctive, even when they have no idea how you shoot nor have seen you shoot


----------



## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

I shoot in a Renaissance guild. Instinctive and traditional equipment with wooden arrows is mandatory.

However, I do enjoy target shooting with sights and stabilizer. There's nothing more satisfying to me than seeing arrows hit gold over and over again.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

centershot said:


> So you are the guy that is a good instinctive shooter. 1-4" groups at 20 yards would win Nationals, excellent shooting. - I don't do it because it is not consistent for me - sure at 10 yards I can fling them down there into a decent group, but at 30 it's all over - and when I miss, I don't know how I was aiming to make an adjustment.
> 
> As for my quote - above all making an accurate shot is paramount for me. Making a poor shot so I can say that I did it "such and such method" is foolish. I enjoy the equipment limitations - and making the most of those limitations.
> 
> I like to fly fish, but I use a sinking line and catch way more fish........Why? Because the fish are under the surface.



no it wouldnt win nationals at all, but all im saying is that you can become a damn good archer if you shoot instinctive and embrace it, ive embraced it and never have loved archery as much as i have the past 2 months since i fully embraced instinctive shooting


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Dave V said:


> I shoot in a Renaissance guild. Instinctive and traditional equipment with wooden arrows is mandatory.
> 
> However, I do enjoy target shooting with sights and stabilizer. There's nothing more satisfying to me than seeing arrows hit gold over and over again.


So policing the equipment I see, but do they literally enforce "instinctive" and how would you do that?


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

I guess this is always a tricky question because it is hard to pin down "instictive". I use the arrow tip as a reference. I don't do any measuring with it, but I know it needs to look "about like that", and I know my point on-I suspect this is what a lot of "instinctive" archers do. It works really well when shooting at unknown distances because your feel for distance and feel for sight picture are wrapped in to one-your mind just knows it needs to look "about like that" and you are ususally pretty close.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Mainly limited to 12 yards, instinctive shooting is possible, fun and sufficient.

Getting impatient with progress at 20 and 20+ yards I started to reference the arrow and gaps. Being a new inexperienced bow shooter that shoots many different bows, real gap shooting is not a good option. Getting a ballpark reference and then back to a more instinctive "sight picture" is my current method. It will often take three shots to "zero in". AT members and other forums discussion of "point float" has been helpful also.

I do not compete or hunt.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Seeing my arrow point just low on a 50 yard "Shot of the Day" may have pushed me more quickly to research reference of the arrow. I soon headed out to a public Archery Range to research "point on" distances.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, if you are talking about instinctive meaning having no explicit aiming system, relegating it to a subconscious process entirely, I can think of a lot of reasons...

Off the top of my head...

It's faster
It's more 'magical' when you hit something (I'm not being sarcastic here.)
There are less explicit processes to potentially distract your brain, or screw up... I.e. you get 'buck fever' and forget to set your gap. If you never do that anyway, who cares? 
It takes your focus away from your shot process, which may help some people get better shot execution, particularly in the short term.
Practicing the process is easier. You leave it up to the subconscious to correct.
When you do miss, you can more easily write it off as an odd flyer, and tell yourself that you just need to recalibrate yourself, which is actually true, in a sense. (I'm not being sarcastic here either).

As far as relaxing, I think that is more a matter of approach. I find any shooting both intense, and calming. To shoot well, I need to focus myself, which can be very zen. To do that, I need to let go of everything else, which can be relaxing. I find shooting my .223 with a scope on sand bags very relaxing, and that's very _not_ instinctive. I think where instinctive shooting has an advantage, in being able to achieve this state of mind, is that it stresses focusing entirely _not_ on the shot, but the spot, and letting things happen as they will.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> as arronax said it is more relaxing, i find myself pretty decently accurate, and it kills me when other archers say you must learn gap or you are gap instinctive, even when they have no idea how you shoot nor have seen you shoot


I don't know about you, but not hitting what I'm aiming at is not relaxing it's frustrating. On the other hand hitting what I'm aiming at consistently is very rewarding. 

I don't remember saying that you 'have' to do anything. The groups you are shooting are very impressive - I would like to add that to my arsenal. I have a few questions - do you just draw back, anchor, stare at the point you want to hit? Do you see the arrow at all? Do you shoot split or 3-under? I hear there are a few guys that are good at it and I'd like to understand more about what they are doing. I would love to meet one in person, but to date have not. I have met several very very good gap/gapstinctive shooters and try to copy what they are doing. Maybe I will change my mind.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

patrick2cents said:


> I guess this is always a tricky question because it is hard to pin down "instictive". I use the arrow tip as a reference. I don't do any measuring with it, but I know it needs to look "about like that", and I know my point on-I suspect this is what a lot of "instinctive" archers do. It works really well when shooting at unknown distances because your feel for distance and feel for sight picture are wrapped in to one-your mind just knows it needs to look "about like that" and you are ususally pretty close.


This is what I kind of expect also - but is it instinctive? If so then my definitions of gapping and instinctive need to be revised.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

centershot said:


> I don't know about you, but not hitting what I'm aiming at is not relaxing it's frustrating. On the other hand hitting what I'm aiming at consistently is very rewarding.
> 
> I don't remember saying that you 'have' to do anything. The groups you are shooting are very impressive - I would like to add that to my arsenal. I have a few questions - do you just draw back, anchor, stare at the point you want to hit? Do you see the arrow at all? Do you shoot split or 3-under? I hear there are a few guys that are good at it and I'd like to understand more about what they are doing. I would love to meet one in person, but to date have not. Maybe I will change my mind.


no no i didnt mean you said anything, but some people on this forum do lol...my process is take a deep breath, look at the spot on the target, draw back, anchor, and i keep my eye on the spot at all times during the whole shot process....really dont see the arrow at all, i basically have zoned out everything when shooting..i think playing professional golf and baseball have helped this attribute as well.....

i shoot split also, once i get home ill try and post of video of me shooting if its not raining of course...the past month, my majority of shooting consists at night, so i think that helped me with instinctive shooting and aiming...i just put a flash light on the target and its just a small round light...everything else around me is pitch black, and when i shoot during the day ive slowly transferred that process and thinking into my shooting and the past few weeks its starting to come together and ive never ever been happier about my shooting, i will never shoot gap or have a G.A.P. profile as some would say, im purely instinctive and love it...not trying to brag nor be cocky, im just letting you know its possible

but do what works for you, dont force a form on yourself....sometimes we out think ourselves and create errors that were never there, do what your happy with and go with it


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

The human eye takes in the sight picture and the brain performs an analysis of that image. Each individual has their own "artistic perspective" of that picture which is also simultaneously being analyzed by their individual mathematical and geometric perspectives. The visual picture and its mental appearance falls within the domain of art, whereas the manipulation within that perspective by the archer's technique to strike the mark blends visual art with some form of geometric calculation. These geometric calculations can span from the vague (pure feel) right up through deliberate geometric manipulation to the millimeter (formal rocket science).

Even as ten witnesses to an event may describe that event in ten different ways, each archer processes visual perception and geometric calculation in their own unique way. Some archers will default to their most natural blend of artistic and geometric comfort. Others will explore these combinations, and either adopt or eliminate them based upon experimentation. Some may take effort to develop new artistic and geometric skills in order to perform their desired task.

There is also the subjective component of human satisfaction within an endeavor. I am well-aware of the nature of both my visual artistic perspective and geometric processing. Neither is stellar. I can't draw a decent picture of a tree in perspective, nor does my brain easily calculate a precise mathematical gap at a particular distance. Could I? Well, yes ... but it would take study and practice over and above my natural state of being. Therefore, I approach my archery and aiming processes within a manner that is natural and unforced ... and then exploit that for all it's worth. This satisfies me greatly. When it quits satisfying me, I'll simply force myself to shift to another tactic.

Dunno if this answers your question, but I hope it politely adds to the discussion.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

There is nothing instinctive about instinctive shooting 

It is shooting a subliminal gap that you acquire over repeated shooting sessions 

For me it is a very good way to shoot a bow in the types of hunting I do 

Up close fast paced shooting 

Deer drives etc 

And yes it is in no way near as accurate as a well defined gap, but it serves my purposes well and has put a lot of heads on my walls


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It's ALL based a person's G.A.P. profile.

Everyone has some type of Goal/Goals.

Everyone has a current or even a certain natural level of Ability.

Everyone has a Personality.

Therefore EVERYONE has a G.A.P.profile where certain techniques and styles will fit them better than others.

It's as simple as 1, 2, 3 :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

There's nothing 'hot' about a beautiful sexy woman...yet many use the term 'hot' to describe her :wink:

Words evolve and can have multiple meanings and definitions.

Ray :shade:


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I don't think that instinctive shooting is that much less accurate than gapping.The reason I think most of the poor instinctive shooters are so inaccurate is because of poor form, let's be honest.

My own personal experience with using both over the last few months, where I've experimented with both on and off dealing with TP, has been that I can shoot equally well with both styles on paper, foam, stumps, what have you. I'm just more confident if I don't ignore the arrow, so my scores on 3D or paper where I'm shooting _in front of others _are higher when I gap. I don't manipulate my gap per se, but rather just let the sight picture set itself (the gap is basically the same from 15 to 30 yards) and execute my shot. Beyond that small difference, it all comes down to shot execution.

Of all the people I've met and shot with that I thought could do better, it was always obvious that there was some flaw in the mechanics of the shot, never in how they aimed.


----------



## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

Honestly, there is no good reason to shoot instinctively. Actually there is no good reason to shoot a bow. If I want to kill something cleanly and efficiently I can use the rifle with the optic sight.

But we all chose what we want to do. I have tried black powder cartridge, which is much inferior than smokeless powder for killing things. I have done muzzleloader rifle and smoothbore. I actually shoot a shotgun instinctively and it works remarkably well. Anyway, I have now moved to bow and arrow. And have chosen instinctive as my aiming system. I like the simplicity of it. I can hit the center often enough that I know it isn't just chance, but not often enough that I believe I am any good.

I could probably be better if I had sights, although it doesn't help me on the shot gun.

I fly fish but use a floating line and dry flies because it is cooler and I don't really like to eat fish.



centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Form flaws just magnify aiming errors.

BOTH are dependent upon each other for accuracy.

An archer shooting a 270 on a NFAA 300 round has missed half their shots.

Archers who shoot 270 and above are exceptional target archers who many believe have near 'perfect' form yet 30 out of 60 shots were misses.

Most people don't realize that accuracy is nearly 50/50 in regards to form and aiming when you take into account the different things that need to come together at the right time to achieve accuracy.

Timing is usually the hardest aspect to master.

Watch an archer with a lazer pointer on their bow and it should become quite apparent what needs to happen....especially at 20yrds. or more.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

centershot said:


> I don't know about you, but not hitting what I'm aiming at is not relaxing it's frustrating. On the other hand hitting what I'm aiming at consistently is very rewarding.
> 
> I don't remember saying that you 'have' to do anything. The groups you are shooting are very impressive - I would like to add that to my arsenal. I have a few questions - do you just draw back, anchor, stare at the point you want to hit? Do you see the arrow at all? Do you shoot split or 3-under? I hear there are a few guys that are good at it and I'd like to understand more about what they are doing. I would love to meet one in person, but to date have not. I have met several very very good gap/gapstinctive shooters and try to copy what they are doing. Maybe I will change my mind.


Watch this video-





And then watch a few more of his videos along with a few more of Wolfie's videos. He's not short with words, but I think he explains it pretty well.

BM


----------



## starrider (Jan 27, 2014)

By far the best response Megan to aiming I've heard. I try to keep my gaps simple; close, average, and far. Used to shoot. Instinctive and by that I mean I didn't try to figure my distance. Didn't work out for me.


----------



## Jarrod Renaud (Apr 10, 2014)

if absolute accuracy was the goal I would have kept my PSE Revenge that was shooting a 420grain arrow at 315fps which hit like bricks and could shoot 2" groups at 60 yards. It was boring so I quit cold turkey and wanted nothing to do with aiming again, I've been shooting a long bow for 3 months now and tried gap aiming for a second, instantly felt boring and brought in too much thinking for my taste. Growing up hunting small game with a sling shot and also being a pitcher on the baseball field for 10 years lent me a natural passion for instinctive shooting. I dont want to think, I want to feel the shot.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

You just had to throw a rock at this hornets nest huh Trent? :laugh: 

But thank you...as this has helped me to conclude a decision...as I was wondering which I'm best with...form and split vision...or?...instinctive snap...so now I'm going to answer that question for myself in a wonderful proving ground...the 300 cold shot thread...where I will alternate daily between the two for my first three cold shots at 20 yards and record the scores...form gap VS instinctive snap...and let the results...scores...and videos tell the truth...For me.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> You just had to throw a rock at this hornets nest huh Trent? :laugh:


Was getting a little tired of talking FOC and which bow so decided to spice things up a bit. Kind of like discussing religion or politics, doesn't take much to get some action!


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I'll bet in your little experiment that the form gap wins out - it should, even if your first shot is off the next two should be right in there. I believe it was Howard Hill that said anyone can miss once, but to miss a second time........sounds to me like Howard knew what his sight picture was when the arrow was loosed.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Howard Hill used multiple aiming techniques.

His primary target competition technique was Split Vision which was a specific aiming technique where the archer would use Point Of Aim/Pick A Point to set his sight picture and than primarily focus on the target. As an archer gets more proficient with this technique they can adjust their Point Of Aim/Pick A Point within their peripheral vision....hence where the term Split Vision originated from.

He also shot Instinctive to hit his moving targets or fast shots.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

kegan said:


> The reason I think most of the poor instinctive shooters are so inaccurate is because of poor form, let's be honest.


Here's my analogy and my hypothesis-

Poor form is like shooting a rifle with a loose sight, or cross-hairs that rattle around inside the scope housing from shot to shot.

I'm also wondering, and coming to believe, that mechanical aids can mask poor form. Bear with me a minute and assume that form can be quantified on a scale of 1 - 100. 1 being unable to knock an arrow, let alone draw the bow without the arrow falling on the ground in front of the archer, while 100 being absolute theoretical perfect shot execution. Pretend you are an archer whose form falls at about 50 on that scale- with a full race rig wheel bow, peep sight, mech release, etc., you can shoot a given group size at a given yardage- but if you are a bare bow shooter your group would be X amount bigger, or intuitive X amount bigger than that, etc...

BM


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


Trollin?


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Was getting a little tired of talking FOC and which bow so decided to spice things up a bit. Kind of like discussing religion or politics, doesn't take much to get some action!


I see...and it also appears to me that you've gotten some very solid answers as to "Why Instinctive" thus far...and some seem to be coming out of the woodwork to state such. 



centershot said:


> I'll bet in your little experiment that the form gap wins out - it should,


Well with me being "The Objective Guinea Pig" here so to speak?...I feel it incumbent upon myself that I not be influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing the factual results either way...as what would I learn if I were to approach this with biased intent?...so I'm not "Betting" either way...just keeping an open mind with equal amounts of honest effort.



centershot said:


> even if your first shot is off the next two should be right in there. I believe it was Howard Hill that said anyone can miss once, but to miss a second time........


Which was pretty much exactly what today's results were...shooting instinctive/snap. 



centershot said:


> sounds to me like Howard knew what his sight picture was when the arrow was loosed.


or at least his subconscious did.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

If your shot is truly instinctive, how do you adjust for a miss? Hit low, aim higher - how do you know what higher looks like without a reference?

Actually, I am interested in hearing how guys make it work. Not just trolling.

I believe that most aiming styles have a lot in common - just the individual definitions and descriptions are not very consistent and lead to confusion.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> If your shot is truly instinctive, how do you adjust for a miss? Hit low, aim higher - how do you know what higher looks like without a reference?


It's done by feel. If you see you hit low and to the right...you just think you need to shoot a little higher and more to the left and hope that your muscle/motor memory, proprioception/kinaesthesia and spatial awareness compensate for the adjustments.



centershot said:


> I believe that most aiming styles have a lot in common - just the individual definitions and descriptions are not very consistent and lead to confusion.


Completely agree!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

centershot said:


> If your shot is truly instinctive, how do you adjust for a miss? Hit low, aim higher - how do you know what higher looks like without a reference?
> 
> Actually, I am interested in hearing how guys make it work. Not just trolling.
> 
> I believe that most aiming styles have a lot in common - just the individual definitions and descriptions are not very consistent and lead to confusion.


Not to try to sound cliche, but when you throw a ball and come up short, or long, or left, or right, how do you adjust to get the next one closer?

Watch the videos I posted, and more videos by those two guys. They explain it a lot better than I can.

I found that Grayarcher video by chance. I sucked it up and and sat through his very long dissertation, and took on the challenge. I nocked an arrow, stared at my target, drew, anchored, fired, and BAM - my arrow hit the ground about 1/2 way between me and my target. 2nd arrow, about half that much closer. 3rd, hit the bottom of the bag. Your subconscious automatically references your "sight picture" through your peripheral vision (according to Gray, debates about shooting in the dark notwithstanding). Again, according to Gray (paraphrasing), the instant gratification of hitting the mark somehow biologically causes your brain to lock that image away in your subconscious memory.

My kids' martial arts teacher has said that you have to repeat a motion 10,000 times in order for it to become muscle memory (I do not know how accurate of from where he heard that number). Now, I have not been in archery for that long, nor do I practice martial arts, but I do play a lot of yoyo (1A, string tricks- like with butterfly type yoyos). I was using that as en example to show my oldest how muscle memory works by going through one of my more practiced simple routines with my eyes closed. Now, I haven't been practicing that much lately and probably could not do it again right off the bat, but still...my son was impressed. That was the first time I tried doing that and nailed it.

BM


----------



## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

And can we all agree to stop calling it "instinctive"? I mean, the only instincts we are born with are to cry when something is not right, and to suckle when a boob is shoved in our mouth. Everything else is learned.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I never have liked the throwing a ball analogy - that is basically form oriented also with some stride and release point mods, just not nearly as accurate as what we are trying to do with the bow and arrow. Typing starts off as a very difficult task that becomes nearly subconscious - maybe something on that order. Hard to imagine how many arrows it would take to become proficient at any reasonable (~50yds) range.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Aronnax said:


> And can we all agree to stop calling it "instinctive"? I mean, the only instincts we are born with are to cry when something is not right, and to suckle when a boob is shoved in our mouth. Everything else is learned.


I think your onto where I get lost with this. Subconscious to me is breathing - or blinking, sure a lot more to shooting a bow accurately than that.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> If your shot is truly instinctive, how do you adjust for a miss? Hit low, aim higher - how do you know what higher looks like without a reference?
> 
> Actually, I am interested in hearing how guys make it work. Not just trolling.
> 
> I believe that most aiming styles have a lot in common - just the individual definitions and descriptions are not very consistent and lead to confusion.


C'mon now Trent...you've been around these forums long enough to have read a gaggillion explainations of how folks aim instinctively....surely enough that you should have a solid understanding of such by now as we've had some excellent instinctive archers roll through here explaining how they do it and exactly how and why it works for not all but many....matter fact?....far more than I figured until you started this thread here but here goes my best attempt at explaining it...again....

I find that for me?...I seem to be able to execute in a far more relaxed way because the aiming part isn't just a couple highly defined points...it's "The Big Picture"...all of it....that as I draw my focus shinks down into what I might term as "Tunnel Vision"...which for me is like a defined, yet invisible tube through space which is where my subconscious perceives as "The Intended Flight-Path/Arc" of my arrow...and I visualize this before the arrow is ever drawn let alone loosed...Byron Ferguson refers to this as "becoming the arrow"...and this mental approach seems to be very readily and easily accepted by most of us mere mortals out in the real world...and for proof of that?...I should have a new-to-me Black Widow PSAII arriving here shortly...62"/43#s...and in researching what it is?...this is what BW's website explains it to be and pay attention to the emboldened part...their words....not mine....

_"The new PSA series take-downs are CNC “precision crafted” with greater accuracy, detail and consistency than we have ever been able to achieve in the past. The black “phenolic” riser sections of the handle and limbs make a distinctive two-tone contrast; plus they are more impervious to moisture in the critical areas around the mounting pins and limb bolts. The extended shelf provides more protection for the hand and the outside edge of the shelf is relieved to make it easier to achieve good arrow flight off-the-shelf. *The PSA has a two inch shorter handle than the PMA series and is intended for the instinctive shooter that can utilize a shorter sight window* than the PMA series. The shorter handle, in turn, allows for a comparatively longer working limb, making it possible to use a shorter overall bow length for greater maneuverability (see RECOMMENDED LIMB LENGTHS)."_

Goals vary....mine is not to spend countless hours, money and travel time to stand on a defined shooting line with dozens of other archers wielding $2,000 low poundage sightless Olympic rigs with expensive high end target arrows trying to see who can consistently shoot the tightest groups at a known distance...and yes...there is a better aiming system for each...pending goals and objectives.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> I think your onto where I get lost with this. Subconscious to me is breathing - or blinking, sure a lot more to shooting a bow accurately than that.


And if you ever actually clear your mind...and allow yourself to "Completely Let Go"....(mentally)....and allow your subconscious to *take complete control* of your shot?...

I think you would find that "accuracy".....(could)....come as easy as breathing or blinking.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> And if you ever actually clear your mind...and allow yourself to "Completely Let Go"....(mentally)....and allow your subconscious to *take complete control* of your shot?...
> 
> I think you would find that "accuracy".....(could)....come as easy as breathing or blinking.


couldn't have said it any better jinks, you literally have to commit and embrace the form 110% when it comes to instinctive style shooting...


----------



## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

There are some really interesting views……. I hope this thread doesn't descend (again!)

I am going through a phase of questioning my whole shooting philosophy and approach to it of late having got some bogeys in my head after a really good year in 3D events.

I am an "Instinctive" shooter……… well I guess I am but if I think about it and read famous archery luminary writings I am perhaps a split vision aimer, I am aware of where it's going, trajectory more than a gap 

Is that instinctive?

Is anyone instinctive if they hold at anchor?

Two things that I have been thinking about. 

Up to press I have done it because because it suits, simplifies and I don't have the discipline or attention span for a conscious thing. I practice hard and it has shown on the 3D's this year…….. that is until I have started questioning myself! 
But its personal, it's not because its better or purer or it makes me a superior being.

1 shot at a time on a 3D course I don't think there is too much of a disadvantage shooting "instinctive" over a gap shooter but I could bring my A game to a target round with a disciplined, good shooter and get my ass handed to me, of that I have no doubt

I have noticed (and left Facebook groups & forums because of it) this instinctive archery bandwagon gaining more and more momentum with the stars of the videos posted promoting themselves pretty hard therein. It seems that you are not just an "Archer" anymore, not if you are an "instinctive archer" and "shooting" has to be "instinctive shooting" which all seems a bit restrictive to me and frankly, its got tedious!

Partly the reason why threads get all heated I guess.

I pretty much exclusively fish with the fly now too, but again that's because I like to and I do live in an area which has world class trout fishing and 100s of lake to do it and my methods are again, kept simple and I use floating line whenever I can because I just love the visual aspect of that!

All fun and games though…… I am thinking of a bare bow type rig in the winter so I might just see if I can't train myself to consciously aim!

Cheers!


----------



## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

Because it works well for my needs, is fun and challenging.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

marcelxl said:


> I am an "Instinctive" shooter……… well I guess I am but if I think about it and read famous archery luminary writings I am perhaps a split vision aimer, I am aware of where it's going, trajectory more than a gap
> 
> Is that instinctive?


I would go with a "Yes/Instinctive" based on that however...for me the key is asking myself.....

"Am I paying any conscious attention to my arrow or it's positional relationship unto the target?"

because if the answer to that is yes?...the I'm gapping....whereby it could be argued that "instinctive" IS gapping but....

*"at a subconscious level."*



marcelxl said:


> Is anyone instinctive if they hold at anchor?


Sure!...but I'm one of those ADD/OCD kind of people...so for me to hold?...leaves the door open to "Distraction"....which for me is any conscious thought entering into the execution...which is why I prefer to snap when aiming instinctively. 

But I'm screwed up! :laugh:

Hope that helps and L8R, Bill.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Howard Hill used multiple aiming techniques.
> 
> His primary target competition technique was Split Vision which was a specific aiming technique where the archer would use Point Of Aim/Pick A Point to set his sight picture and than primarily focus on the target. As an archer gets more proficient with this technique they can adjust their Point Of Aim/Pick A Point within their peripheral vision....hence where the term Split Vision originated from.
> 
> ...


Nope, Split vision came from the Saracen Archer. http://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf Thanks Jinkster
Page 59.

Dan


----------



## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:mg::mg:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Aronnax said:


> And can we all agree to stop calling it "instinctive"?


When every word is reduced down to one specific definition...I think we might than stop calling it Instinctive.

Merriam Webster's Dictionary uses the word 'instinct' to help describe it's use as when a person has an instinct for using the right word...LOL...which is ironic :wink:

Anyone can easily substitute 'sight picture' or 'aiming position/body position' and it still fits.

The simple fact is....many words have more than one definition.

Most people understand EXACTLY what is meant by aiming Instinctive...so why make such an issue over the name when it's been around forever and when it's obvious that words have more than one definition.

If it bothers you that much you should also make a point of changing the name given to String Walking because we all know strings can't walk :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> I never have liked the throwing a ball analogy - that is basically form oriented also with some stride and release point mods, just not nearly as accurate as what we are trying to do with the bow and arrow. Typing starts off as a very difficult task that becomes nearly subconscious - maybe something on that order. Hard to imagine how many arrows it would take to become proficient at any reasonable (~50yds) range.


Throwing a baseball, typing, playing most any instrument, martial arts, dancing, walking, running, etc...all involve the same or similar aspects need to aim Instinctively.

When you understand what's involved it becomes very clear what sets Instinctive Aiming apart from the other aiming techniques even though there are some similarities.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Nope, Split vision came from the Saracen Archer. http://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf Thanks Jinkster
> Page 59.


I stand corrected. Thanks for sharing that! :thumbs_up

This is another perfect example of a word or phrase can evolve over time to have multiple meanings and definitions and not just one.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I stand corrected. Thanks for sharing that! :thumbs_up
> 
> This is another perfect example of a word or phrase can evolve over time to have multiple meanings and definitions and not just one.
> 
> Ray :shade:


At times I think it all boils down to silly semantics...but other times I'm left wondering if folks are gleaning a true understanding of the definitions conveyed...some define through thought and opinion...others by experience and knowledge...but at the end of the day?...

"WE"...are the only ones who truly know what it is we do and even then?...sometimes we only think we know. :laugh:

But at other times?...it's like going on a carpet safari with several others and fighting for those last few crumbles of crack. :laugh:

and that's when I have to just push myself away from the keyboard and go shoot! :cool2:


----------



## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I started out shooting what I think is instinctive and I would say I can do a pretty good job at it 5-15 yards still. At 20 yards I kind of suck, at 25 yards I just suck and at 30 yards I really suck. For me learning an aiming style was a good thing.
Funny story at least to me. I am the only recurve/longbow shooter at my local archery shop shooting league. I can't tell you how many times people tell me how cool it is to see me shooting my recurve or longbow instinctual. I try and tell them I am gapping. And they say, your shooting instinctive gapping? Or I am shooting my recurve with a crawl doing string walking and that is instinctive as well. Well I just gave up. They ask now and I just nod my head and say yup as I am setting my string walking crawl and putting the arrow point right on the bull's-eye.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> At times I think it all boils down to silly semantics...but other times I'm left wondering if folks are gleaning a true understanding of the definitions conveyed...some define through thought and opinion...others by experience and knowledge...but at the end of the day?


Dude...let me first ask....why didn't you share that info with me when you first discovered it? :wink:

Allot of the debate over Instinctive Aiming is semantics...which I find ridiculous...because there's plenty of evidence to show why it's been used and has been used for decades.

Very few people will try to say Instinctive Aiming is an innate ability that someone is born to do well without learning.

Instinctive Aiming is NOT an innate behavior we do at birth...as you and I and most every archer who understands what it is knows.

As I've said before....aiming techniques have been given names to set them apart from the other aiming techniques.

Confusion and/or animosity develops when someone refuses to try and understand what is meant by the term when someone uses it.

A name is only important for communication and educational purposes.

There are no badges of honor given to people just because they choose a specific aiming technique.

Badges or trophies are earned....but many of us already know this.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> no it wouldnt win nationals at all, but all im saying is that you can become a damn good archer if you shoot instinctive and embrace it, ive embraced it and never have loved archery as much as i have the past 2 months since i fully embraced instinctive shooting


Actually yes 1-4" groups at twenty would walk away with both IBO nationals and NFAA indoor nationals - you would give the sighted recurve guys a run for their money with 1-4" groups at twenty - I'm just guessing here but I'd bet Brady shooting a full oly rig with a site and clicker doesn't hold a three inch group at 20.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Instinctive aiming works for some people....I never could get the accuracy I desired...amd if I missed even by a few inches I didn't know why or how to fix it..and when it really failed me was when I needed or wanted it to most either a live animal or the last shot was the difference between me winning or not.


As everyone knows I'm very competitive and don't handle placing anything but first very well..I now see much less of that...



I keep reading People saying that gap shooting takes way too much time and who has that much time?? Once I've gotten use to gapping it's almost automatic...


I have two shots below 23 and over 25 all the way to 31 which for me is point on...if it's less than 23 then I simply aim 4" low...couldn't get much easier.

I'm shooting 9.25 gpp at 191 fps. I draw 30.5"





Dewayne Martin


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> i shoot instinctive and its extremely fun, and i consistently have been shooting 2-5'' groups at 30 yards and 1-4'' groups at 20....my question to you is, why not shoot instinctive...


Even your worst groups would set a new indoor record, you should come to nationals and show everyone how it's done!

-Grant


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Hmm interesting, thing is I've never competed in a 3d or indoor with any bow, I've been a hardcore bowhunter, and have literally shot almost everyday since 2011 albeit recurve or compound, I've been to 3d courses and did well but didn't keep score, 

Maybe I'll give it a go one day when I have tine


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> no it wouldnt win nationals at all, but all im saying is that you can become a damn good archer if you shoot instinctive and embrace it, ive embraced it and never have loved archery as much as i have the past 2 months since i fully embraced instinctive shooting












Here is a 4 inch group over a NFAA indoor target. Thing of it is you hold target guys in distain yet we know exactly what it means to say I hold 1-4" groups at 20 yards. 

That's damn impressive after shooting instinctive for only two months - OSB is the best instinctive guy I've seen and he has shot instinctively his while life and can't touch that.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> Instinctive aiming works for some people....I never could get the accuracy I desired...amd if I missed even by a few inches I didn't know why or how to fix it..and when it really failed me was when I needed or wanted it to most either a live animal or the last shot was the difference between me winning or not.
> 
> 
> As everyone knows I'm very competitive and don't handle placing anything but first very well..I now see much less of that...
> ...


Dewayne....the more I learn here about both myself and others?....the more affirmed I become in the belief that where it comes to sightless archery?...we're all just wired differently...some excel with more analytical and consciously defined reference points while others are more comfortable and relaxed addressing their aiming with a more artistic approach and either way?...if instinctive truly is "Gapping Subconsciously"?....what's the real differences?...

One comes fast and natural with little too no conscious effort but the other is more consistently accurate at longer distances?

and then it's just a simple, personal choice from there pending personality and goals as we all work on increasing our abilities. 

That's the way I see it. :cool2:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> ...we're all just wired differently...
> 
> and then it's just a simple, personal choice from there pending personality and goals as we all work on increasing our abilities.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Matt_Potter said:


> Here is a 4 inch group over a NFAA indoor target. Thing of it is you hold target guys in distain yet we know exactly what it means to say I hold 1-4" groups at 20 yards.
> 
> That's damn impressive after shooting instinctive for only two months - OSB is the best instinctive guy I've seen and he has shot instinctively his while life and can't touch that.


I don't keep up with today's competition archers and ect..I figured guys like jake and Brady could hit 1" groups at 30 and 2" groups at 40 haha...I really didn't mine was that great, I just keep up with trail cams, sheds, scouting, setting up new spots and so forth at the place I hunt


----------



## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

Man if i had a nickle for each post like this i have seen over the years on the trad sites i visit, I could buy a new black widow.

Its fun 
I enjoy it
Its a challenge

Why do you care? enjoy your shooting the way you like. WHO CARES


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wtpops said:


> Man if i had a nickle for each post like this i have seen over the years on the trad sites i visit, I could buy a new black widow.
> 
> Its fun
> I enjoy it
> ...


I'm right there with ya Pops! :thumbs_up

well....maybe a little ahead...with the new BW and all.


----------



## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> I'm right there with ya Pops! :thumbs_up
> 
> well....maybe a little ahead...with the new BW and all.


You will enjoy that widow Ive had mine scene Jan 06.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Before anyone gets to carried away...I think centershot asked the question in a respectful manner without ridicule or judgment...but out of genuine curiosity. I may be wrong...but that's my impression and I'm not claiming it to be true.

When someone asks a question out of genuine curiosity...it's all good...because it shows a real effort being made to try and understand others who have a different G.A.P. profile.

The reasons why these posts degrade into personal attacks and ridicule...is often because of miscommunicating, poor assumptions, ignorance or just plain ego.

There's really no need for it...especially when you exam all the evidence describing and supporting what Instinctive Aiming truly is and is not.

Many new archers often ask how and why a good archer aims a specific way...and there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know....and the same goes for communicative and educational reasons...even for seasoned archers who may not fully understand how or why.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wtpops said:


> You will enjoy that widow Ive had mine scene Jan 06.


Thanks Pops! :thumbs_up

I have a feeling I'm going to like being a card carrying member of Team Spiderman!


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Why shoot instinctive? Simple, it's mo better.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

centershot said:


> If your shot is truly instinctive, how do you adjust for a miss? Hit low, aim higher - how do you know what higher looks like without a reference?
> 
> Actually, I am interested in hearing how guys make it work. Not just trolling.
> 
> I believe that most aiming styles have a lot in common - just the individual definitions and descriptions are not very consistent and lead to confusion.



And I believe you. I think, based on some of your past posts, that you really do want to understand how it works. Now, I'm not too sure anyone can describe it well enough for a person to 'get it' by reading about it. No doubt, reading what others say on the subject is a good and helpful thing but, I believe what prevents most people from grasping the idea is lack of acceptance more than actual understanding the process. 
Let's use the example of the word instinctive. For me, I just accept that word as I do the word pickup truck. No need to fight it. Other people want to fight over different dictionary meanings instead of accepting that when related to archery, it is what it is, and move on.
To learn to shoot instinctively the first step is to stop fighting it and allow the subconscious to take over. I believe that people like myself who never had any kind of training actually have an advantage in that area. My daughter wanted to try out shooting a couple of days ago and so I broke out the kiddie bow and let her have at it. She had the usual troubles of gripping the string and such but, otherwise not too bad for a first try. After a while I asked if she was using the arrow to aim at the target and she said "no, I'm just looking at the pinecone, is that wrong?" You can probably guess my answer but, that seems to be the most natural way for a beginner. The best part is that they are not fighting it. I believe it's the only way to develop the skill of instinctive shooting. Stop fighting it.

How to adjust for a miss? Well, imo, that's easy. When my shot is not what I wanted it to be, I know that my focus drifted off the intended spot. Next shot I pay more attention to focus, nothing more.

The last statement is probably true, different methods have a lot in common. Some people on here have said that instinctive shooters are really gapping. I usually say that gappers are really shooting instinctively and don't even know it. So yes, there's a gray area there. It's likely all about a sight picture which I see without realizing it and a gapper actually notices the gap before shifting focus to the spot.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Good post forest


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The more engrained an aiming technique becomes...the more similar it is to Instinctive Aiming...YET...there are still differences.

Each technique has been given a name for a reason...and it's because it is different and unique in some way with inherent advantages and disadvantages under specific circumstances.

It's all about finding what fits a specific archer which is guided by their G.A.P. profile.

Some can make Instinctive Aiming work to meet their specific Goals...while others may need to learn something else to meet their specific Goals.

This isn't rocket science fellas.

Ray :shade:


----------



## StoicArcher (Jun 24, 2014)

Why instinctive? For myself there are multiple reasons. Probably the largest driving force for myself is just that I prefer the challenge! It just seems too easy for my personal preferences to tune in a bow for range x, y, and z. Then make minor changes depending on estimated range. Once I find something I like, I just get this craving to become better and better, and using sights just takes that away for me.
As far as aiming with instinctive, to me it seems to be a combination of mental focus and kinesthetic coordination. You focus on your target, or even better yet a feature on your target, and if you really want to be accurate you create a point within that feature to focus on in your own mind. Then, if you've practiced enough, your mind coordinates your muscles. You subconsciously make minute adjustments to body position, muscle tensions, and etc that are directed by your understanding of the shot you are about to take, then execute. All while focusing on your target, and not really thinking of much else. For example the other day I was target shooting, and this barn swallow was annoying me while retrieving arrows. So, I stopped, created a point on the body of the bird, something clicked in my mind and all of a sudden I see my arrow flying towards it, impacting it directly in the neck. Don't remember seeing my bow, just the bird and my arrow. I'm actually pretty new to instinctive archery, but I have put in time every day to what I'm doing, which I enjoy.
Hope this shed some light, or atleast provided another viewpoint. I'm not saying anything is wrong with sights either, it's just my preference


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

It is kinda like Rocket Science. Rather than try to reboot all the failed computers, use the abacus, the tape measure, the slide rule, etc...take the remaining limited time and go to manual/instinctive to land that next loose? ;-)


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

wseward said:


> It is kinda like Rocket Science. Rather than try to reboot all the failed computers, use the abacus, the tape measure, the slide rule, etc...take the remaining limited time and go to manual/instinctive to land that next loose? ;-)


Doh!!!! You may have a point there LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

Well ill go a head and give it a try. We are dealing with nomenclature and the English language. I shoot instinctive (dont look it up in the dictionary because that is not what it means) What i believe is it is simple muscle memory in action and the brain is a muscle. I tell my friends that don't shoot archery and ask how i aim that is like throwing a rock but if you say that on these sites you get chastised. 

Think about it, your 7 years old and pick up a rock for the first time, you cant hit the broad side of a barn but you keep throwing rocks and after a while you start hitting things you are looking at, simple muscle memory, the brain is a muscle it will adjust and make your arm and hand use enough force and let go of the rock at the right time. I believe its the same process going on. Maybe you could say its like shooting a shot gun, you don't mentally count the inches of lead between the duck and muzzle of the gun over time the muscle between your ears learns and with out mentally thinking about it you pull up set the lead on the duck and what do you know you hit it. 

This is just my take on it if it helps you in your quest to understand what we as archers call instinctive (Again dont look it up that is not what it means). Maybe a few decades ago when the word instinctive was chosen to describe the way some archers aim they should have picked a better word or just made one up, but they didnt so we are stuck with it. Humans, English language, nomenclature. Instinctive, don't look it up its not what it means.


----------



## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

Arron said:


> Funny story at least to me. I am the only recurve/longbow shooter at my local archery shop shooting league. I can't tell you how many times people tell me how cool it is to see me shooting my recurve or longbow instinctual.


I had a similar experience to this at the range last week. The only other guy on the range yelled across seven open lanes with, "Fingers?! You're doing it the hard way!" He started laughing and walked up and introduced himself. He was president of the local chapter of the shooting club, and recommended I come out to the shoots, because I would win everything in my division, simply by showing up! I don't know where all the finger shooters/trad guys are hiding out, but I know they are out there. Just try ordering a nice custom recurve or longbow and get told there’s a six month waiting list…. The shooters are out there, along with their wallets. 

One question I have for the group is how you arrived at instinctive shooting? I wasn't even a teenager when I was wandering the woods of Wyoming with a Browning Deluxe Nomad compound (split wood for a summer to buy it). I had a cheap 4 pin sight on it, and found myself trying to "look around" the sight to see the target and aim, so I decided to just take the dang thing off. I've been shooting instinctive ever since. I'm always amazed to watch guys punch "X's" out to 60 yds with an wide array of gadgets, and don't begrudge them anything, but I've got no interest in following that path. I have more fun scaring "X's" at 20 & 30 yds.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

"Many words with multiple meanings exist in the English language. Technically, almost every word has a multiple meaning. How often do you go into the dictionary to look up a word, and find that only one meaning is listed next to it? Practically never! Many words have slightly varying meanings, or they can be used as different parts of speech."

http://grammar.yourdictionary.com/for-students-and-parents/words-with-multiple-meanings.html

By all means....do not look up words in the dictionary. Stick to the one definition you learned in elementary school and insist 'instinct/instinctive' have a single meaning and definition :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I remember back when I first started shooting a bow that was a little more than just a kid's toy.

A friend had gotten a bow and we started shooting together. There was no internet and we didn't have any books, clubs or coaches. We just put up a target, started shooting and having contests to see who could do better.

I remember instinctively using the arrow to aim. LOL

As a side note, I guess the competition was kind of instinctive too.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Paul68 said:


> One question I have for the group is how you arrived at instinctive shooting?


In the beginning I was basically self taught and my primary GOAL was to hunt squirrels and other small game. I put marks on my lil red Fred Bear fiberglass recurve and soon learned how to gap off of my riser. As I got older my GOALS evolved into hunting larger animals, wanting to compete and also perform trick shots.

I arrived at learning Instinctive Aiming because I knew exactly what my GOALS were and researched how to learn a specific technique at each step of my journey.

I than researched similar archers who shared my similar GOALS. The archers I found that most fit me at that time were Howard Hill, Stacy Groscup and Byron Fergueson.

Instinctive Aiming ultimately came about with the desire to hit moving targets and be able to make certain shots as quickly as I could even though my Gap Aiming technique had become very quick and accurate.

My Gap Aiming technique has become so engrained it has almost become Instinctive like...hence the term Gapstinctive :wink:

Shooting Gap and learning Instinctive...I realized even though both techniques were similar...there were definitely some differences also. They were NOT exactly alike.

Many people believe that just because an archer only looks at the target they must be aiming Totally Instinctively...but I realized there was actually more to it than just that. For some people...this is where the confusion exists. 

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Aronnax said:


> If my goal was to put as many arrows in the X as I could, I wouldn't waste my time shooting trad, I'd get a wheelbow.BM


But then the ante goes way up. Then, you are looking to get 60 x's for a 300 winning score vs. a win with a +270 score shooting instinctive. Both venues have their own distinct limit to achieve or exceed.

It only works in the field that sighting aids can up your chances, whereas before, even a larger target was a challenge for a given piece of equipment. In the target world, things actually get harder, as the competition only gets bigger.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> I remember back when I first started shooting a bow that was a little more than just a kid's toy.
> 
> A friend had gotten a bow and we started shooting together. There was no internet and we didn't have any books, clubs or coaches. We just put up a target, started shooting and having contests to see who could do better.
> 
> ...


When you think about it, that's how we all shoot when shooting sightless. That's how we learned to shoot, and that's how we shoot. 

Given there are more efficient and stealthier ways to draw and hold a bow that don't involve way up on the cheek or jaw, putting the shaft close under the eye pretty much gives up the intended purpose. I mean, baseball players don't look down the ball 

I guess after that, it's all perception and semantics to describe it. But, we all have the shaft and point in our line of vision no matter how we use it. 

The best analogy would be the guy who takes the time to affix a sight pin to his bow, but then, says "I just don't look at it". We can either say "why did you put it there, then", or, let them have their story. In the real world, non-Internet, the subject just doesn't come up anyway. The Internet will be what it is.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray, Hill wrote that he shot split vision even on moving targets. He used it at all times.

This thread is showing some of the, for lack of a better word, excuses. I don't think there need to be excuses for shooting instinctively. Instinctive shooting is not a greater challenge, it's just a different way to perceive your sight picture. There's no reason a person shooting instinctively can't score as well, or at least almost as well, on paper and foam as a fellow gapping or using POA. There have been more than a few people who have shot 270's without gapping, and plenty of gappers still struggling to break 240. As I said, it all comes down to_ form and shot execution_. Control, and consistency. If you don't shoot as accurately it's because your shot execution and form isn't as consistent and controlled as it could be. It's not really a big deal, we all have room for improvement, but it's certainly not because you chose a "harder way to aim". I'm speaking here in terms of bigger picture accuracy, meaning that if you want to shoot a certain way that still shouldn't keeo you form shooting a 240 or better in your own backyard. 

For centershot, your question about how to know how to compensate? For me I've found Rick Welch's view on missing to be extremely helpful: it's your form, something you did. You didn't shoot left because you aimed left, you were looking at the spot, so you must have torqued or collapsed. If you shot right, it was because you plucked. Low is not coming to full draw, and so on and so forth. You have full faith in where you are pointing that arrow, and analyze the miss in terms of form, rather than aiming. 

For me, hvaing faith in where I point becomes the "deal breaker" under stressful situations. I'm too left-brain wired, too analytical. The first times I ever shot a bow as a kid I tried aiming, sort of a mix of face walking POA. It may just be placebo, but that improvement in confidence or focus or just outlook can be the difference in accuarcy for an individual. In the end, you should still be more accurate with the method that you find the most useful, not less, regardless of what the method is.


----------



## joebobf (Apr 9, 2012)

Why? Because it serves my specific purpose of short range deer hunting and 3d to about 35 yards.

In a recent conversation with a well known instinctive shooter, we likened our common childhood experience of shooting a half worn out Daisy BB gun. Those things would get so weak that you could actually see the BB lob toward the target with the naked eye, but we both agreed we were quite accurate out to around 50 yards or so. Through experience the eye trained so that we automatically knew the proper elevation to hold the rifle. There were no conscious calculations, simply a quick "point and shoot".

Such it is with shooting a bow.


----------



## portablevcb (May 10, 2014)

I've only been shooting couple months and have asked myself the same question. Why not sights? I have tried them on and off. Probably not fair since it probably takes a long time to get used to either method. And I have a lot of history with pistol and shotgun shooting. 

I like shooting without sights on the bow. Don't know why, just feels better. Gap, instinctive, split vision. Don't know and don't care.

I do agree with kegan and Rick. If I miss it is because I lost focus or form. I can usually tell when I loose the arrow. My eye shifts to another spot on the target for a split second. I think about something else, like my bow arm rotation or bow shoulder or my release. If I have good form and keep my focus, the brain does it's thing and I hit near the center of the target.

It does remind me of baseball, hitting not throwing. The brain calculates the path of the ball, including the spin and wind effects, then tells the body when and where to swing the bat so the two connect at precisely the right spot.

I also have to say that this has been hard for an engineer. I am used to measuring, calculating, predicting, all based on fixed rules. By rights I should have the latest compound bow, laser rangefinder, sights, maybe even a laser pointer, with release, peep sight, etc, etc.

Instead I am drawn to the simple bare bow.

Go figure.

charlie

PS my GAP is just to have fun shooting


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

wtpops said:


> Man if i had a nickle for each post like this i have seen over the years on the trad sites i visit, I could buy a new black widow.
> 
> Its fun
> I enjoy it
> ...


Why? Because if there is a better way I want to know about it and try it. - I keep hearing about great instinctive archers and I would like to meet one.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

kegan said:


> Ray, Hill wrote that he shot split vision even on moving targets. He used it at all times.
> 
> This thread is showing some of the, for lack of a better word, excuses. I don't think there need to be excuses for shooting instinctively. Instinctive shooting is not a greater challenge, it's just a different way to perceive your sight picture. There's no reason a person shooting instinctively can't score as well, or at least almost as well, on paper and foam as a fellow gapping or using POA. There have been more than a few people who have shot 270's without gapping, and plenty of gappers still struggling to break 240. As I said, it all comes down to_ form and shot execution_. Control, and consistency. If you don't shoot as accurately it's because your shot execution and form isn't as consistent and controlled as it could be. It's not really a big deal, we all have room for improvement, but it's certainly not because you chose a "harder way to aim". I'm speaking here in terms of bigger picture accuracy, meaning that if you want to shoot a certain way that still shouldn't keeo you form shooting a 240 or better in your own backyard.
> 
> ...


Good post - I agree with the pressure shot being very difficult to pull off without a reference. Could be a left brain thing is suppose, but seem to be true for a lot of shooters.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Hill wrote that he shot split vision even on moving targets. He used it at all times.


With Hill's Split Vision technique he clearly explained that a secondary aiming reference was used to place his arrow tip on below the target as he focused on the primary target he wanted to hit. How does one do that shooting aerial targets...such as the coins he shot out of the air or at targets 150yrds. away?

Based on my research, which includes multiple books, personal quotes, quotes from one of his personal protégés, John Schultz and other videos...he used 3 aiming techniques under specific circumstances. Split Vision, Point of Aim and Instinctive.



kegan said:


> Instinctive shooting is not a greater challenge, it's just a different way to perceive your sight picture.


When you research target competition it becomes quite apparent Instinctive Aiming is in fact harder to master and achieve the same level of accuracy as some of the other aiming techniques...especially at longer distances for the general population. It takes someone with a gift of natural hand and eye coordination and years of practice to achieve the level of accuracy a good archer using String Walking or one of the other aiming techniques can achieve.

Ray :shade:


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

there are bow hunters i know who could out shoot a competition archer, just because instinctive archery isn't used very much in target and competitive, doesn't mean its not used throughout the world with bowhunters only and couldn't out shoot a target or 3d only archer.....your basing your opinions and facts on target archery, which isn't all fair to be honest ray


----------



## piinnh (Mar 15, 2014)

JINKSTER said:


> And if you ever actually clear your mind...and allow yourself to "Completely Let Go"....(mentally)....and allow your subconscious to *take complete control* of your shot?...
> 
> I think you would find that "accuracy".....(could)....come as easy as breathing or blinking.


This has happen to me a few times in the last couple on months since I got back into archery to agree with jinkster. Hopefully my skill/mental game will improve and I will add many more such moments of mental clarity.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> your basing your opinions and facts on target archery, which isn't all fair to be honest ray


That's only part of it.

The fact is...I'm basing my opinions on a number of situations and circumstances.

Target archery is definitely one of them. A target with scoring rings is one of the best ways to determine how accurate and consistent an archer really is and be able to compare their skills with other archers. In many cases...a target with scoring rings of some sort is often an eye opener to just how accurate or inaccurate an archer truly is. The other is personal experience with other archers that I've met and shot with over the years while bowhunting, stump shooting and competing. The other is based on research through books and videos.

Howard Hill even implied that if an archer wanted to be good in competition...they should pursue some other aiming technique besides Instinctive Aiming. Instinctive Aiming's advantages are with quick shots and specific hunting circumstances...not on the target line.

I'm not claiming it's impossible for an archer to be very good aiming Instincitvely in regards to pin point consistent accuracy...I'm just stating the research indicates it is NOT the norm.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm sorry but compound is dynamite fishing, OR is ocean tuna fishing with a bunch of technical gear, and gap versus instinctive is like wade fishing with a normal setup and fly fishing. The feud between the last two strikes me as what Freud called the "narcissism of minor differences."


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Who are these Bowhunters I would like to meet them
Gary


ghostgoblin22 said:


> there are bow hunters i know who could out shoot a competition archer, just because instinctive archery isn't used very much in target and competitive, doesn't mean its not used throughout the world with bowhunters only and couldn't out shoot a target or 3d only archer.....your basing your opinions and facts on target archery, which isn't all fair to be honest ray


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

fair enough, i respect your stance and experience, but it is possible for an instinctive archer to succeed in competition, i know for a fact the person who crafted my english longbow and gave me advice on instinctive shooting won countless times years ago when he competed all the time..i saw a few of his trophies as his shop as well


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

2413gary said:


> Who are these Bowhunters I would like to meet them
> Gary


me:wink:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> it is possible for an instinctive archer to succeed in competition


I completely agree! :thumbs_up

I'm just saying it's not the norm when compared to the rest of the archers as a whole.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I completely agree! :thumbs_up
> 
> I'm just saying it's not the norm when compared to the rest of the archers as a whole.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Well I for one hope I never meet this "Norm" guy....He sounds extremely boring. :laugh:


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

I'm curious why it seems that so many people seem to get so profoundly butt-hurt and take such great pains to discredit the means by which other people choose to enjoy their hobby.

If you are safe and having fun you're doing it right.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray, ever since I dropped my PO from 90 yards, it's been easier to reference it, whether the target is moving or stationary. From what I gather Hill's PO was between 50 and 60 yards, which would give him a much smaller sight picture than yours. With a 100 yard PO, I don't think it would be possible.

I also don't think that it's as big a difference in accuracy as it's made out to be. Steve Morely won a world title shooting instinctively (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and for IBO or indoor the gaps are fairly straight forward, I don't see how an instinctive shooter would be all that handicapped provided their using a similiar anchor/bow set up to a gapper. Again, my own scores on paper and foam using both have been suprisingly similiar when everything else is kept the same. 

I do not think there should be different levels of "accuracy" for the different disciplines. Same with draw weight. Providing the bow and arrows are similiar construction you don't have any excuses not to shoot well.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Damn True said:


> I'm curious why it seems that so many people seem to get so profoundly butt-hurt and take such great pains to discredit the means by which other people choose to enjoy their hobby.


For some...it comes down to prejudices built up over time based on comments accusing them of cheating to win a competition when they're not aiming Instinctively.

I've seen and witnessed it myself...where other archers claim an archer is cheating if he is String Walking or Gapping. It's an 'elitist' attitude to make such stupid accusations...when an archer followed the rules and has worked hard to master their techniques. Some people are just poor sports and are unwilling to admit they were beat fair and square. These type of accusations build up resentment which often turns into prejudice over time towards a specific group of archers that were ridiculing them in the beginning.



Damn True said:


> If you are safe and having fun you're doing it right.


I agree...especially if it's meeting an archer's specific GOALS :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

piinnh said:


> This has happen to me a few times in the last couple on months since I got back into archery to agree with jinkster. Hopefully my skill/mental game will improve and I will add many more such moments of mental clarity.



WOW, you got back into archery to agree with Jinkster! He should be flattered.:wink: Just kidding ya. Welcome to the forum btw.
:welcome:

I fully understand your point and that's what I call 'getting it'. When a person is willing to accept that it's possible to look at the intended target and shoot it with no further thought or mental involvement, then those moments slowly become normal. That's when you 'get it'. It's harder than it sounds though and, the reason many people can't find that level of confidence. I'm think the OP might be in that boat, unwilling to let it happen because he really doesn't believe it's reliable. That's exactly the mindset that will block the 'get it' part. It's one thing to want it but, another to find it.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Ray, ever since I dropped my PO from 90 yards, it's been easier to reference *it*, whether the target is moving or stationary.


By 'it'...do you mean your arrow? If so....I completely agree! :thumbs_up

Again...in regards to Howard Hill's Split Vision aiming technique...he described it as also placing the arrow tip on a secondary aiming reference below the target...which is different than Gap and is different than how some other people use the term Split Vision.



kegan said:


> From what I gather Hill's PO was between 50 and 60 yards, which would give him a much smaller sight picture than yours. With a 100 yard PO, I don't think it would be possible.


Definitely! My research indicated his POD was 60yrds. also. When an archer shoots at their POD...the only technique they can be using is Point of Aim/Pick A Point.



kegan said:


> I don't see how an instinctive shooter would be all that handicapped provided their using a similiar anchor/bow set up to a gapper.


I'm NOT saying it's a HUGE handicap....unless longer distances are being discussed :wink:

I'm saying it's a handicap to the point where it's not common to see archers aiming ONLY Instinctively and winning allot of tournaments.

Tournaments can be won or lossed by a few points.

The fact is...most archers are more consistently accurate using another aiming technique besides Instinctive Aiming...especially in most competitions.

Ray :shade:


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Yes, the arrow. Even with some of the flatter shooting set ups I've tried, even a 55 yard PO was still manageable on moving targets. Though I don't quite agree with your definition of Hill's split vision, I can still see how he could quickly hit his peripheral POA and shoot, especially considering how much practice he had in it.

My contention about the difference in accuracy was more about folks comparing their scores informally, rather than in competition. Take two bowhunters shooting their hunting rigs and have them shoot a NFAA 300 round, or a 3D course. The difference in scores should not be that far off. However, rather than a post of results, we often hear a laundry list of excuses. I don't think they're valid. While I would never expect an instinctive shooter to shoot as well as a string walker, I don't see any reason that they can't shoot as well as your average gap shooter. I'm not saying everyone can shoot as well as Dewayne. How you aim won't make you a champion all by itself. Neither will it make you incapable of shooting a group at a piece of paper either, though. Sloppy shot control, inconsistent form, and a non existent shot sequence are what make poor shooters, not aiming tecniques. That's all I'm getting at.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

kegan said:


> Yes, the arrow. Even with some of the flatter shooting set ups I've tried, even a 55 yard PO was still manageable on moving targets. Though I don't quite agree with your definition of Hill's split vision, I can still see how he could quickly hit his peripheral POA and shoot, especially considering how much practice he had in it.


You are correct, a peripheral gap system is the epitome of shooting on the wing or moving target. That's how trap, skeet, or wing shooting has been done for many, many decades. There's nothing about it that precludes a gapping system or suggests there's a need or benefit to not gapping it. I think we get a made up excuse for needing a system, where in actual practice, no need exists.


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

nice to meet you 


ghostgoblin22 said:


> me:wink:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> me:wink:


The target you posted in that 300 round thread seems to suggest otherwise.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

MGF said:


> The target you posted in that 300 round thread seems to suggest otherwise.


i agree, it was a complete trash group


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> You are correct, a peripheral gap system is the epitome of shooting on the wing or moving target. That's how trap, skeet, or wing shooting has been done for many, many decades. There's nothing about it that precludes a gapping system or suggests there's a need or benefit to not gapping it. I think we get a made up excuse for needing a system, where in actual practice, no need exists.


Yes. I used to do a lot of areal shooting with rifles and handguns. I still used the sights. I do a little bit of areal shooting with a bow too but I "aim" the same as I do any other time.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> i agree, it was a complete trash group


I get some of those too. LOL


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Paul68 said:


> One question I have for the group is how you arrived at instinctive shooting?


Actually the opposite for me - I started out trying to shoot instinctive and could not hit the broad side of a barn especially when the range was over 20 yards. Read about some aiming techniques and implemented them into my routine. I am currently shooting better than I ever have, but still have plenty of room for improvement. I am always open to finding something better - hence the thread.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

MGF said:


> I get some of those too. LOL


i never shoot on a competition target, i shoot at my 3d deer target or my goose target as well, and it clearly showed on the results that i was trying to force it instead of let the bow and arrow do the work


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Dewayne....the more I learn here about both myself and others?....the more affirmed I become in the belief that where it comes to sightless archery?...we're all just wired differently...some excel with more analytical and consciously defined reference points while others are more comfortable and relaxed addressing their aiming with a more artistic approach and either way?...if instinctive truly is "Gapping Subconsciously"?....what's the real differences?...
> 
> One comes fast and natural with little too no conscious effort but the other is more consistently accurate at longer distances?
> 
> ...


Try shooting a 8 power true spot scope on any bow at any distant? You will soon realize that the submind is in alll forms of archery. There just informal archery or formal archery, your choice. The conscious/fearful mind is the part with the problem. Just some have formally learned to deal with the conscious thru steps of checks and balances.
Dan


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> When you research target competition it becomes quite apparent Instinctive Aiming is in fact harder to master and achieve the same level of accuracy as some of the other aiming techniques...especially at longer distances for the general population. It takes someone with a gift of natural hand and eye coordination and years of practice to achieve the level of accuracy a good archer using String Walking or one of the other aiming techniques can achieve.
> 
> Ray :shade:


And this is why the question of 'why' was asked in the first place. I wonder what the ratio of Instictive shooters winning is to that of guys using an aiming system? For the guys that have 'mastered' instinctive it sounds awesome. I just wonder if 'mastered' means different things to different guys.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> there are bow hunters i know who could out shoot a competition archer, just because instinctive archery isn't used very much in target and competitive, doesn't mean its not used throughout the world with bowhunters only and couldn't out shoot a target or 3d only archer.....your basing your opinions and facts on target archery, which isn't all fair to be honest ray


Well if we don't base accuracy on a standard target, it's pretty difficult to judge. Thing is all the target archers I know are bowhunters, they just need something to do while waiting for the season to come around.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> i never shoot on a competition target, i shoot at my 3d deer target or my goose target as well, and it clearly showed on the results that i was trying to force it instead of let the bow and arrow do the work


I was the same way. Then I tried a paper target and shot lousy. Part of it is in the head...especially when I'm looking at a clean target. The other part is that the paper records all the shots.

My interest is hunting but now shooting paper is part of my regular practice. If it causes me to choke or whatever, that's ok. A deer could make me choke too.


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

I mean, I follow a guy on YouTube who has set out to take a Himalayan Tahr in New Zealand with his bow (compound). He's a rifle hunter too and that tool would be by far the better one for the job by virtue of range & accuracy. But instead he has taken on an additional challenge through the chosen tool and means of hunting (above tree-line spot/stalk) the game because.....

.....wait for it.....



.....it's fun.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

kegan said:


> Yes, the arrow. Even with some of the flatter shooting set ups I've tried, even a 55 yard PO was still manageable on moving targets. Though I don't quite agree with your definition of Hill's split vision, I can still see how he could quickly hit his peripheral POA and shoot, especially considering how much practice he had in it.
> 
> My contention about the difference in accuracy was more about folks comparing their scores informally, rather than in competition. Take two bowhunters shooting their hunting rigs and have them shoot a NFAA 300 round, or a 3D course. The difference in scores should not be that far off. However, rather than a post of results, we often hear a laundry list of excuses. I don't think they're valid. While I would never expect an instinctive shooter to shoot as well as a string walker, I don't see any reason that they can't shoot as well as your average gap shooter. I'm not saying everyone can shoot as well as Dewayne. How you aim won't make you a champion all by itself. Neither will it make you incapable of shooting a group at a piece of paper either, though. Sloppy shot control, inconsistent form, and a non existent shot sequence are what make poor shooters, not aiming tecniques. That's all I'm getting at.


As I posted many times before. Split Vision, Saracen Archer style is left eye outside the bow on target, right eye inside bow on arrow Tip. Optically this make sense, not the other way, Hill's. Thumb release on the opposite side of the bow for a right hand shooter.

I am using the first Saracen version, but with a twist. You can watch the two merge. If that make sense. IF not read this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_dominance
The conscious brain receives signals from the eyes then directs the subconscious. Aiming is just a step in my sequence. 
Dan


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

centershot said:


> And this is why the question of 'why' was asked in the first place. I wonder what the ratio of Instictive shooters winning is to that of guys using an aiming system? For the guys that have 'mastered' instinctive it sounds awesome. I just wonder if 'mastered' means different things to different guys.


When was the first you ever heard of "instinctive"?

I've been bow hunting on and off since the mid 80's and reading some of the archery publications. One of those was "Traditional Bow Hunter" or "Traditional Archer" or something like that (are they still around?).I don't remember this becoming a topic until I started reading archery on the internet which is much more recent.

I do remember a few guys from my club in the early 90's who dressed like G. Fred but they never hit anything.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Aside from not requiring a great aptitude for rote learning, "The Magic" of Instinctive Shooting is worth giving it a try. Often at loose you know that a shot is going to be good, and then it is. The little rush is great. Being human in the irregular field and not a robot in a lab environment makes it even better. Nothing against robots in a lab. ;-)

"If I miss it is because I lost focus or form. I can usually tell when I loose the arrow. My eye shifts to another spot on the target for a split second. I think about something else, like my bow arm rotation or bow shoulder or my release. If I have good form and keep my focus, the brain does it's thing and I hit near the center of the target."

"Arc o' da arrow" has been used by stone throwers, archers, kids/adults shooting low power bb guns, and our guys shooting tracers. Learning Instinctive Shooting is fun, being really good at it is a huge challenge.

The "Magic" is when in that moment, that loose, you are there. You are an Instinctive Shooter.


----------



## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

When I first started I learned instinctive because who I thought were the powers that be said that's how you are supposed to do it. Well it seems that those powers that be ended up not being powers at all. Through the years I made it a point to try other ways of doing this whole archery thing, some worked and other didn't. It's been a great ride so far and it gets better everyday. Archery is a lot more fun with an open mind but then again, so is life.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> When was the first you ever heard of "instinctive"?
> 
> I've been bow hunting on and off since the mid 80's and reading some of the archery publications. One of those was "Traditional Bow Hunter" or "Traditional Archer" or something like that (are they still around?).I don't remember this becoming a topic until I started reading archery on the internet which is much more recent.
> 
> I do remember a few guys from my club in the early 90's who dressed like G. Fred but they never hit anything.


If you go back to history of the early days of the NAA and NFAA formation, it was simply shooting without a sight v. shooting with one. As a matter of fact, at one point, a single fixed sight was still in the Instinctive class, as being fixed and singular it could not aid the field shooter over distance changes.

I first heard in reference to me shooting at a range in 1996 or so. Again, just simply because I didn't have a sight on the bow.

Yeah, the Internet has come up with all kinds of ways to describe it, and some claiming they know the true definition based on research. Again, we get conflictual information with what we find in real life v. what the Internet can bring us. Real life experiences never did me wrong 

The overarching truth to matter, though, is that the only thing "instinctual" about shooting without a sight, as evidenced by new and veteran shooters, is our "instinct" to bring the arrow up close to the eye to get visual advantage. Does anyone think Asbel is eye-bent over that arrow just so he can bow in submission to the instinctive archery fairy?


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

When was the first time I heard about instinctive?

My first attempt was about 1990 - bought a bow that was too heavy, arrows spined too stiff and short drew and snap shot it 'instictively', just like the pro shop guy told me how. Then he stepped up and showed me how to shoot with his Black Widow - thing was he sucked as bad as I did. It was not until 2010 when I saw a guy (BigCnyn) shooting a recurve at a local indoor shoot that could actually hit what he as aiming at - I mean consistently keeping all 3 arrows in the yellow on a Vegas target. He stood up there nice and straight, drew that bow clear back to anchor, held it for a few seconds while aiming and made a nice release with a good follow through. Whoa, what the heck - that's not how your supposed to shoot a recurve?, but dang look at those groups. Well he was gracious enough to give me a few pointers, I found the Trad section here on AT and Viper's book. I now have a new attitude about traditional shooters (my old one was to not get behind them at a 3D shoot).


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

kegan said:


> Yes, the arrow. Even with some of the flatter shooting set ups I've tried, even a 55 yard PO was still manageable on moving targets. Though I don't quite agree with your definition of Hill's split vision, I can still see how he could quickly hit his peripheral POA and shoot, especially considering how much practice he had in it.
> 
> My contention about the difference in accuracy was more about folks comparing their scores informally, rather than in competition. Take two bowhunters shooting their hunting rigs and have them shoot a NFAA 300 round, or a 3D course. The difference in scores should not be that far off. However, rather than a post of results, we often hear a laundry list of excuses. I don't think they're valid. While I would never expect an instinctive shooter to shoot as well as a string walker, I don't see any reason that they can't shoot as well as your average gap shooter. I'm not saying everyone can shoot as well as Dewayne. How you aim won't make you a champion all by itself. Neither will it make you incapable of shooting a group at a piece of paper either, though. Sloppy shot control, inconsistent form, and a non existent shot sequence are what make poor shooters, not aiming tecniques. That's all I'm getting at.



You mean excuses for missing deer? Yep, they are plentiful.
I can agree with you to some extent but, different pursuits require different methods to be effective.I am convinced that instinctive shooting is THE best method for deer hunting. There are good solid reasons for my belief and I personally think that I can prove them. 
However I tend to hear a lot about shooting paper targets at 20yds. That should be a no brainer. If that's what I wanted to do then I would set a rig up to be either point on or close to it at that distance. How hard could it be to put the point of the arrow on the same spot every time and get fairly close results in impact point? Notice that even I would abandon my instinctive shooting in this particular case. Otherwise I would expect to lose.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

MGF said:


> When was the first you ever heard of "instinctive"?
> 
> I've been bow hunting on and off since the mid 80's and reading some of the archery publications. One of those was "Traditional Bow Hunter" or "Traditional Archer" or something like that (are they still around?).I don't remember this becoming a topic until I started reading archery on the internet which is much more recent.
> 
> I do remember a few guys from my club in the early 90's who dressed like G. Fred but they never hit anything.


MGF, this is so true. This forum was the first for me.
Dan


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> When was the first you ever heard of "instinctive"?
> 
> I've been bow hunting on and off since the mid 80's and reading some of the archery publications. One of those was "Traditional Bow Hunter" or "Traditional Archer" or something like that (are they still around?).I don't remember this becoming a topic until I started reading archery on the internet which is much more recent.
> 
> I do remember a few guys from my club in the early 90's who dressed like G. Fred but they never hit anything.



So, did the way they dressed have any effect on the 'never hit anything'? Or was that just another of your insults towards Mr. Asbell? Have you ever met the man? Does he also miss most of the deer he shoots at?


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm saying it's a handicap to the point where it's not common to see archers aiming ONLY Instinctively and winning allot of tournament's
> Ray :shade:


And I believe this may be because many of the better instinctive shooters are of a personalty profile where they're most enjoyable events are those where the scorecards are left with the pencils.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> And I believe this may be because many of the better instinctive shooters are of a personalty profile where they're most enjoyable events are those where the scorecards are left with the pencils.


Is it that or is it because they are not shooting competitive scores? I suppose only the shooter knows the real answer.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Is it that or is it because they are not shooting competitive scores? I suppose only the shooter knows the real answer.


Well I guess we'll never know for certain...but I do know this...unlike the deal that went down with the American Indians and the Island of Manhattan?...I will not be trading all the relaxation and fun archery has to offer for numbers on a scorecard and a few trinkets.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Well I guess we'll never know for certain...but I do know this...unlike the deal that went down with the American Indians and the Island of Manhattan?...I will not be trading all the relaxation and fun archery has to offer for numbers on a scorecard and a few trinkets.


I look at it like a friendly game of basketball. At the end of the day, who got the most hoops is never the real point. Having fun shooting for hoops, is. 

But, if I'm going to expend the energy to throw the ball, I don't understand the mentality of not caring whether my ball went through the net or bounced off the rim as being a measure of fun. Otherwise, what was the point of showing up for basketball. We all could have have visited and gossiped over some hobby that was not a shooting sport, like basket-weaving


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

DD, I was referencing split vision as Hill described in in his book, "Hunting the Hard Way". I personally feel it would be more accurately described as gap shooting, but it is what it is.

Forest, my measure of the two on paper would be of similiar set ups. Both a gapper and an instinctive shooter using a slightly heavier bow set up with a slightly flatter shooting arrow. Basically the same limitations that one would see between different classes at something like an IBO shoot, rather than specialized equipment for the given venue.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

kegan said:


> DD, I was referencing split vision as Hill described in in his book, "Hunting the Hard Way". I personally feel it would be more accurately described as gap shooting, but it is what it is.
> I agree. Not Split vision at all.:wink:
> Dan


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

centershot said:


> Is it that or is it because they are not shooting competitive scores? I suppose only the shooter knows the real answer.



Could be that but, it's also very likely that many of them are not shooting competitive events.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> So, did the way they dressed have any effect on the 'never hit anything'? Or was that just another of your insults towards Mr. Asbell? Have you ever met the man? Does he also miss most of the deer he shoots at?


I could only guess as to why they never hit anything but how it an insult to Mr. Asbell?

I don't know about that "missing most of the deer" crack. Last year I shot at ONE deer and missed all of them. LOL I'll bet there's plenty of folks out there that missed more deer than I did...even with guns. Haven't you ever missed?


----------



## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I was arranging some books today and thought some of you might enjoy this.


----------



## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I have a small collection of book from "back in the day". Interestingly most of them have very little to say about aiming. In fact, most of them describe instinctive as any any non-sight method. What all the books do stress is the importance of good form and consistency. Take care of that and the little bit of aiming we have to do becomes much easier.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> Well I guess we'll never know for certain...but I do know this...unlike the deal that went down with the American Indians and the Island of Manhattan?...I will not be trading all the relaxation and fun archery has to offer for numbers on a scorecard and a few trinkets.


You make it sound like keeping score and winning trinkets (as you put it) is not fun..........I disagree, there is satisfaction in collecting trinkets (if not I suppose you'd have disposed of yours long ago) those trinkets are very hard to come by. They take a lot of time, effort and skill to accumulate - why put down that effort?


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Trust me, OR shooters, and probably gap people, ain't thinking a ton on a competitive shot if they're any good. Which is why I respect the ethos of instinctive, which is that a well-drilled shot process is a relaxed and not belabored exercise of holding. Ki Sik Lee would say if you hold past 4-5 seconds performance goes downhill anyway. Certain period of time holding for me is automatic drop back down because I know my odds erode.

Far as some of the stuff about how aim shooters "miss," I take lessons from someone who has done a perfect 300 on a NFAA with a recurve more than once in competition. He gets beat by some Olympians, including one guy I shared a bale with at a tournament this year. That guy missed the one inch 10 on a FITA a handful of times in 60 shots, for a 290+. The "misses" were within an inch of that, ie, 9 ring. When you shoot mid 200s and make trips down the lane with someone repeatedly hitting FITA 30s, it's amazing. To call that "missing" is an injustice. I know he does the same in field and probably could also hunting. The sort of missing we are talking about here is what decides gold medals. Most of us would take 95% of that accuracy and be happy winning shooters or hunters the rest of our competitive lives.

I also think that 10-15 is the distance where people with stable, but even perhaps weak, practiced form, can drill a target regardless of how well their shot is composed. That probably follows for instinctive, which is also a practiced shot. But the further you go out, the more it matters if you have flaws in your shot. The aim needs to be better. The arrow has time to move if your form launches it poorly.

Reconciling the two, I see some instinctive people who shoot what I see as well, and some who have some crazy form approaches where it's like, that arrow has maybe 15 good yards in it, and will be lucky if it groups. Sometimes I get hints of resistance to form talk from instinctive people even if I'm not trying to change 90% of what they do. One guy I'm friends with at the range who was hitting his nose. Good guy but from his version of instinctive I can't tell him anything on how to shoot and that's a basic fix. Ideally he shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel.

In fairness, I know a girl who shoots OR who shoots with her feet turned toward the target and her upper body turned back perpendicular. She is quite good but never competes and would probably have an awkward time in a jostling line setting. But strange stuff is not limited to trad.


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

centershot said:


> You make it sound like keeping score and winning trinkets (as you put it) is not fun..........I disagree, there is satisfaction in collecting trinkets (if not I suppose you'd have disposed of yours long ago) those trinkets are very hard to come by. They take a lot of time, effort and skill to accumulate - why put down that effort?


It is the coolest feeling to drill 4-5 shots in the white of a NFAA target on some key end. Last end and you need close to perfect to do the best you've ever done. Whamo, you pull it off. Hair stands on the back of your neck. It doesn't even have to be some overall score in a round. Sometimes it's just one really neat end. And if you're doing that tired on your last end, that is the function of all that work and of execution on that day.

When you're learning, even hitting the bull at all is that feeling. Sometimes when I hear people like, I'm scared about going from 15 to 20. I know sometimes people find their limits, but it's like, realize it's going to be neat when you figure out 20. It may take a month or more.

I do think OR people need to chill out sometimes, but I also don't think trying to hit the target in a projectile sport is very big an ill. That to me rings almost defensive. Now, might there be many roads to success or enjoyment? Perhaps. But I still think if someone tries it and really stinks, they probably quit. Which makes this about the rate of success as well as the enjoyment of it all.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> I don't understand the mentality of not caring...


Sanford...I find myself (to a certain degree) agreeing with you to some extent that there is in fact....."a mentality of not caring"...which in all honesty?...I actually strive for but I feel it would be more accurately described as....

*"A State of Complete Mental Relaxation"*

which is a state-of-mind I seek to attain before each and every shot and when I'm shooting my best?....is...

"the only conscious thing I do"

prior to drawing the bow.

It's what gives me the most fun, pleasure and relaxation as it relates to archery...but if I get up in my head with any aspect of the physical act of shooting the bow or the mental act of aiming?...and begin listening to the many voices chattering in my head that I MUST DO this that way and I MUST do That This way?....once holding at full draw I find my mind mimicking that of Smeagol (form Lord Of The Rings)...listening to the voices and talking to myself with a double mind....and if that is "The Mentality Of Caring"?....I'll take instinctive snap every day of the week and twice on Sundays! :laugh:

Like I've said a thousand times before...we're all wired different and?....Neil M. 




centershot said:


> You make it sound like keeping score and winning trinkets (as you put it) is not fun..........I disagree, there is satisfaction in collecting trinkets (if not I suppose you'd have disposed of yours long ago) those trinkets are very hard to come by. They take a lot of time, effort and skill to accumulate -


It was fun for me at one time as well Trent....back when I was a younger, more aggressive kind of guy...my trophies line a wide shelf in my garage and are host to a pillows worth of cobwebs...sometimes I still smile when I glance at them...mostly remembering the fun times and fine folks I shot with...but also a reality check of what a butthead I could be about it at times...flaunting my skills....gloating at what were previously my smack talking competitors...and then remembering what the true gift of archery really was...and it wasn't a competitors congratulatory shaking of the hand of a fellow archer too the one who bested him...it was the best archer shaking the hand of the least skilled archer encouraging a new friend to come back and try again.

So maybe I'm just getting old and soft....maybe I am lacking the same drive and fire that once burned within me....and these days?...I say...

"Good Riddance"! :laugh:  



centershot said:


> why put down that effort?


I'm not....I'm just explaining why it's no longer a goal of mine...and as a whole?...my overall archery experience is better for it..."for me". 

Now I have three questions for you...

1. Why does it seem that it baffles you as to why all others aren't driven towards attaining the same personal goals you seek?

and?...

2. Why do you feel that yours is the ultimate path to becoming a successful archer?

and finally?...

3. What is your definition of...."A Successful Archer"?

Just curious here and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Azzuri, please tell me who the guy is that shot a perfect 300 round with a recurve..I've heard of a few but once we dug into it they used a sight....


What's his name..


Dewayne Martin


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Yes, the arrow. Even with some of the flatter shooting set ups I've tried, even a 55 yard PO was still manageable on moving targets.


I'm sure...because my 100yrd. POD is manageable for me on moving targets also.



kegan said:


> Though I don't quite agree with your definition of Hill's split vision,


I'm sure you have read pages 68 & 69 where Howard goes into detail about his Split Vision aiming technique. If you recall or re-read it...he talks about secondary points of reference to place the arrow tip on to hit the primary target...he uses a basketball as the main target and a tennis ball and a ping pong ball to demonstrate the secondary aiming references with this technique.

Here's a quote "When the point of your arrow comes into your field of vision, aim the point at an imaginary spot ten to twelve inches below the spot on the deer you intend to hit, and loose.

Basically what he is describing is Point Of Aim/Pick A Point but the difference is the archer shifts focus from the arrow tip and than primarily focuses on the target as they learn it and as they begin to master it they make the adjustments of their arrow tip within their peripheral vision as the stare at only the target.



kegan said:


> How you aim won't make you a champion all by itself.


I agree. It takes BOTH aiming and form to make a champion and it's the timing of the execution of the shot and the consistency which it is executed that creates accuracy.

Ray :shade:


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Azzurri, have you ever shot using a true spot scope 4, 6 or 8 power? 

Instead of centering the pin in the center of the target you center the target in the center of the scope that magnifier.
Dan


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> I wonder what the ratio of Instictive shooters winning is to that of guys using an aiming system?


I can't give you numbers...but I can tell you that over my 27yrs. of shooting with 1000's of archers in competition, rendezvous, bowhunting and roving...there's very few True Instinctive archers winning tournaments...unless the distances are reasonably close and the numbers of participants are low or of lower caliber. 

Part of the confusion is over what really is Instinctive Aiming and what isn't.

Split Vision, Indirect Aiming, Gapstinctive and Instinctive are pretty much the same thing depending on the archer describing their aiming technique. As I've said...some people believe all an archer needs to do to be aiming Instinctively is to just look at the target...but there is more to it than just that.



centershot said:


> I just wonder if 'mastered' means different things to different guys.


Absolutely...because it can be based on the archer's GOALS and the size of the target which is part of their GOALS. Most...if not all archers have room for improvement. It's the pursuit of that improvement that keeps me going. I love the challenge. If I wanted it to be easier I could just put a sight on it.

For some of us...easier isn't always better.

Ray :shade:.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> Sanford...I find myself (to a certain degree) agreeing with you to some extent that there is in fact....."a mentality of not caring"...which in all honesty?...I actually strive for but I feel it would be more accurately described as....
> 
> *"A State of Complete Mental Relaxation"*
> 
> ...


I find those questions very easy to answer.

1. Why would you not want to shoot the best shot that you possible can? (given our chosen equipment limitations)
2. It is the easiest way to achieve #3. Unless there is something better, which I am always on the lookout for.
3. Being able to consistently hit what your aiming at.

Those just don't seem to controversial or extreme to me.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I can't give you numbers...but I can tell you that over my 27yrs. of shooting with 1000's of archers in competition, rendezvous, bowhunting and roving...there's very few True Instinctive archers winning tournaments...unless the distances are reasonably close and the numbers of participants are low or of lower caliber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> I find those questions very easy to answer.
> 
> 1. Why would you not want to shoot the best shot that you possible can? (given our chosen equipment limitations)
> 2. It is the easiest way to achieve #3. Unless there is something better, which I am always on the lookout for.
> ...


Now here's the difference...I can fully understand and accept your answers.

Respectfully, Neil M.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Ray...Awesome post...definitely couldn't have said it better myself!!


Thanks! 

It surely isn't for a lack of archers using Instinctive Aiming because if I had to guess...archers aiming Instinctively make up a large percentage of barebow archers. It seems to be one of the more popular barebow aiming techniques used. I also have to say ...only half of those archers used Asbel style form while aiming Instinctively.

My personal conclusion is....Instinctive aiming is not the best choice for archers who want to be competitive in target archery and many could benefit by developing more consistent form.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> BLACK WOLF said:
> 
> 
> > I can't give you numbers...but I can tell you that over my 27yrs. of shooting with 1000's of archers in competition, rendezvous, bowhunting and roving...there's very few True Instinctive archers winning tournaments...unless the distances are reasonably close and the numbers of participants are low or of lower caliber.
> ...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Well now that you've both solidly established your competitive stylings as "The Minority"....
> 
> why do you think that is? :laugh:


It's always about the G.A.P. :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's always about the G.A.P. :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


always? :laugh:

Ray....I thought you a much wiser man than to speak in absolutes 'round these parts.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> always? :laugh:
> 
> Ray....I thought you a much wiser man than to speak in absolutes 'round these parts.


If the absolute fits...share it :wink:

Think about it...every choice we make is about a Goal/Goals, our Ability/Abilities and our Personality...if you can point on a circumstance where it's not...I'm all ears :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## Eaglespirit (Jun 27, 2014)

Vary good question I use the tip of my arrow on my recurve and longbow


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If the absolute fits...share it :wink:
> 
> Think about it...every choice we make is about a Goal/Goals, our Ability/Abilities and our Personality...if you can point on a circumstance where it's not...I'm all ears :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Not necessarily...what if it's a case of "My Goal Chose Me" rather than me choosing a goal?...for example....I never knew my goal would become inner peace and relaxation...so how could I choose a goal that wasn't even initially a recognized choice or selection but rather an evolution?....and how could one possibly make any sort of choice based on abilities that have yet to evolve?....things that only a spiritually based journey could reveal along the way.....and "personality"?...that....as a matter of course...goes through many changes and evolves along the way as well....so how could one possibly define or "Profile" goals, abilities and personalities that often times seem to be ever-changing?

Archers go through "Phases"....some start out with the intent of becoming an Olympic or World Champions yet wind up discovering that the real treasure for them is something more Kyudo based....while others start out wearing wool and floppy hats with HH type longbows only to find they prefer ILF target rigs and visa-versa...and some spend many years cycling through it all until they stumble upon what BECOMES their true goal...the one that fulfills their dream and quenches their desires in a way no other style or venue can...yet never knew until they tried it...and then.....the abilities begin to establish themselves as does the associated and appropriately accompanying persona.

So exactly when did this "Choice" come about and did the archer actually make it?....or?...was it something instinctively discovered during the course of his journey?

Goldilocks Syndrome 101


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, competition is very relaxing and full of inner peace or you won't do very well for very long. Seems you are describing a personal trait of the archer more than any goal destination. 

In that case, one can be uptight anywhere or anyway they might happen to be shooting. It's just the change in focus that shifts the mood - nothing found the person, the person just found a new outlet to ease their frustration.

Competitive target archery is the largest form of archery. It's not the stress of it that makes it so popular.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, competition is very relaxing and full of inner peace or you won't do very well for very long. Seems you are describing a personal trait of the archer more than any goal destination.
> 
> In that case, one can be uptight anywhere or anyway they might happen to be shooting. It's just the change in focus that shifts the mood - nothing found the person, the person just found a new outlet to ease their frustration.
> 
> Competitive target archery is the largest form of archery. It's not the stress of it that makes it so popular.


Actually?...I would say that where it comes to the more traditional/classic styles of archery that "competitive archery" is by far "The smallest form" of archery and might guess there's upwards of a 100 hunters, stumpers and backyard plinkers for every competitive single string archer actively participating in organized tournaments.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Actually?...I would say that where it comes to the more traditional/classic styles of archery that "competitive archery" is by far "The smallest form" of archery and might guess there's upwards of a 100 hunters, stumpers and backyard plinkers for every competitive single string archer actively participating in organized tournaments.


Never seen stats breaking it down that way, but the point is, if competitive target archery in the global sense was stressful it would not be the most popular way to use a bow. I'd bet, though, that the numbers stay the relative across the board. 

There's really no reason to pigeonhole archery venues into which are fun and relaxation and which are full of stress, though. Anywhere and anyhow shooting a bow should be fun. That was the point, too. If you are unhappy in one, you probably just think you are having fun in another, that is, till the new wears off that. It goes to one's personality. This is all different than choosing not to be a competitive archer, or weekend 3D shooter, or whatever. Pigeonholing the venues, though, is not what it should be about.

There's an old saying. "I'd rather be an unhappy poor man than an unhappy rich man. At least the poor man still has hope, hope that more money will make him happy." It goes the person and not where that person is at.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> vabowdog said:
> 
> 
> > Well now that you've both solidly established your competitive stylings as "The Minority"....
> ...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> ...what if it's a case of "My Goal Chose Me" rather than me choosing a goal?


Hmmmm...I'm not sure about that...but I do believe Goals can evolve over time. The moment anyone makes a choice...they are basing it on their current G.A.P. profile which doesn't mean the Goal and G.A.P. profile can't evolve into something else in the future.



JINKSTER said:


> so how could I choose a goal that wasn't even initially a recognized choice or selection but rather an evolution?


As you stated...your original Goal evolved over time into a different Goal which is very common.



JINKSTER said:


> ....and how could one possibly make any sort of choice based on abilities that have yet to evolve?


A person can base their Goals and the path they need to take to achieve those Goals on their current Abilities and current situation. Take draw weight for example...an archer has a Goal of being able to shoot a 55lbs. bow comfortably...yet they found out while visiting their local archery store that they currently can only shoot 40lbs. so the draw weight they will choose to start with will most likely be around 40lbs. as they work on strengthening themselves until they can reach their Goal.

Another example may be in regards to choosing an aiming technique based on their athletic Abilities. If a person knows they have poor hand and eye coordination that can totally influence an archer in choosing an aiming technique where the archer has a solid aiming reference to adjust...rather than relying primarily on hand and eye coordination.



JINKSTER said:


> so how could one possibly define or "Profile" goals, abilities and personalities that often times seem to be ever-changing?


Your answer is within your own words. A G.A.P. profile isn't written in stone. It can evolve.



JINKSTER said:


> So exactly when did this "Choice" come about and did the archer actually make it?....or?...was it something instinctively discovered during the course of his journey?


Basically...it's the moment a person has a desire or a need. Many desires and needs (Goals) are discovered during the course of a person's journey.

I hope that helps explain it better.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Because it takes work.


Yep.....that is why.....and it sure does...for those who approach archery as though it were a job.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt, where did you get that quote from???


I didn't say that or write it!!! 


It says that JINKS quote..but says VABOWMAN...


What's going on??



Dewayne Martin


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I approach it like work but not like a job. The key difference is that archery is a diversion from real life responsibilities (like a job) and I'm not accountable to anyone but myself. I enjoy learning and mastering a topic or skill that I have use for. I get satisfaction from solving a problem like poor shooting but I don't really enjoy the poor shooting while it's happening. I guess for me it's more about accomplishment and the satisfaction than about "fun".

At times in my life my career has filled all those needs. During those times, I didn't bother with archery or any other "hobby". In fact, archery has been one of my "patches" for a job that limits my accomplishment to an unsatisfying level.

I was the same with diving. I never had any interest in going to a vacation resort to hang out on a reef watching all the pretty fish. I always had to do more, better and more technical. I became an instructor, then an instructor for more specialties and higher levels...then it was deeper technical diving, deep shipwrecks, cave diving and so on. When I stopped teaching and ended up in a position where I didn't have the means to travel around doing exploration, I lost interest. There just wasn't anyplace left to go with it. Just hanging out underwater with nothing to accomplish bores me. Shooting a bow just for the sake of shooting it isn't all that exciting either.

When I want to "relax" or "clear my mind" I take a nap on the couch. I enjoy doing that sometimes but, when I get up from the couch, I'm looking to get something done.

I think the only thing that's kept me in archery is the fact that I've run into some really difficult challenges. If I ever conquer those challenges to whatever level it takes to satisfy me, I'll no doubt move on to something else.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt, I found it....JINKS posted it.......I knew I didn't!!



All good!


Dewayne


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

vabowdog said:


> Azzuri, please tell me who the guy is that shot a perfect 300 round with a recurve..I've heard of a few but once we dug into it they used a sight....
> 
> What's his name..
> 
> Dewayne Martin


I'm talking about an OR with a sight.

AMFSLR season before this past one in TX:
http://www.texasfieldarchery.org/sywat.asp?season=2013&type=1

This year he shot 299, a few 298s, and a few 297s. He lost to an Olympian at state, and to an Olympian and a future prospect at our region of USAA nationals, who could probably shoot the same level or better. Same level or better?! This is already rarified air.

But my basic premise is that when you get down to criticizing zero to limited one-inch misses as "they all miss" it's a strained argument. We're talking 2-3 in. groups in competitive conditions against other quality archers. I respect the "acceptance" argument -- we're not all chasing the same goal or content/discontented with a particular performance level. Some people may take it less seriously and enjoy the activity more than the result. However, I don't buy that people set out to be inaccurate or are that indifferent to it -- at some level everyone has their standards -- nor am I sold that because aiming techniques practiced well involve minor levels of inaccuracy, that this is somehow discrediting.

I also think that people who don't emphasize the target accuracy might be really into something else. Making their own bows. Their own accessories. They like to hunt and are really into that. I just can't buy that people would be totally into something but pursue it from a standpoint of complete mediocrity and indifference. If you do this regularly you're into it in some way intensely, even if it's not the target shooting.


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, competition is very relaxing and full of inner peace or you won't do very well for very long.


For you.



Sanford said:


> Seems you are describing a personal trait of the archer more than any goal destination.


 Yeah, when he says he finds "X" more relaxing than "Y" he's pretty much talking about himself. Others share that opinion, still others don't.



Sanford said:


> Competitive target archery is the largest form of archery. It's not the stress of it that makes it so popular.


 For you & those who enjoy it, for others, that may be precisely what keeps them away....well that and the goofy white bucket hats.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

i do not see competitive target archery the largest form of archery nor would i ever want to compete, i see archery different that others, im a bowhunter and i shoot everyday to hone my skills and ect. and to relax, get out of the house, and the list goes on


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I believe Sanford is looking at the bigger picture - worldwide, not just here in the USA. Many places don't allow bowhunting but still have huge numbers of shooters.

Pigeonholing folks into 'target' or 'bowhunter' is pretty difficult to determine and short sighted. I'm a target shooter while shooting targets and bowhunter when there is something to hunt - I'd imagine that is the same for more than a few archers.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

fair enough, but i was talking about myself not the world


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

As long as people make an effort to try and understand others and stop thinking the world revolves around them...than understanding one another becomes much easier.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

BLACK WOLF said:


> As long as people make an effort to try and understand others and stop thinking the world revolves around them...than understanding one another becomes much easier.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Or there's also not giving a rip about how or why other people do the things they enjoy and just being glad they are having fun doing what they want the way they want. Folks should try that.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Damn True said:


> Or there's also not giving a rip about how or why other people do the things they enjoy and just being glad they are having fun doing what they want the way they want. Folks should try that.


exactly, well said...end of story right their


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Damn True said:


> Or there's also not giving a rip about how or why other people do the things they enjoy and just being glad they are having fun doing what they want the way they want. Folks should try that.


But some people truly want to know how and why someone else chose to do it specific way...especially beginners or those wanting to learn something new. In those cases I think it's perfectly OK to ask why and how.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

centershot said:


> I believe Sanford is looking at the bigger picture - worldwide, not just here in the USA. Many places don't allow bowhunting but still have huge numbers of shooters.
> 
> Pigeonholing folks into 'target' or 'bowhunter' is pretty difficult to determine and short sighted. I'm a target shooter while shooting targets and bowhunter when there is something to hunt - I'd imagine that is the same for more than a few archers.


Actually, that's right here in the USA out of 235 million Americans over 18 years of age based on the ATA (Archery Trade Association) surveys. Even with margins of error, the numbers are far enough apart to cover any margin hundreds of times over:

Of 235 million total Americans age 18 and older: 

*18.9 million (8 percent) shot archery or bowhunted.
**10.4 million (4.4 percent) participated in target archery only.*
*6.5 million (2.8 percent) participated in archery and bowhunting.
**1.9 million (0.8 percent) participated exclusively in bowhunting.*

My original point was that one person incessantly posting that at the end of the road the only benefit was unpleasant/unnecessary work and a plastic trophy could only doing so based on his own hangup or bias, as the numbers don't stack that way. Quite harmless Internet banter, unless you think that by a person seeking confirmation that the person is happy, they are doing so by running down what others do and might discourage some new folks here from seeking what millions of folks find very satisfying.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Actually, that's right here in the USA out of 235 million Americans over 18 years of age based on the ATA (Archery Trade Association) surveys. Even with margins of error, the numbers are far enough apart to cover any margin hundreds of times over:
> 
> Of 235 million total Americans age 18 and older:
> 
> ...


Very good Sanford...and in the real world?...those numbers do support your previous statement...but in our world of single string bows?...it's not even close to what those numbers represent...which is a bazillion compound archers with recurve & longbow participation making up a very low single digit percentage of those figures...heck...matter fact?...I think I know more recurve and longbow archers who choose to not participate at local shoots than those who do and the #1 reason they don't bother?...is for fear that they may be the only one showing up with a stickbow...the #2 reason?..."too slow of a shooting pace" (waiting on all the compounders)...however many do attend the "Traditional Only" events...at our TBOF 2014 State Championship Shoot there were...

(86) Men's Traditional Class (recurve)

(32) Men's Longbow

(17) Mens Primitive

(7) Womens Longbow

(6) Womens Primitive

(17) Womens Traditional (recurve)

(4) Youth Boys

(5) Youth Girls

(16) Cub Boys

(6) Cub Girls

For a grand total of 202 traditional style COMPETITIVE archers...in the entire state of Florida...and this is the largest annual traditional only shoot in the state......which places an extremely different perspective on the national numbers you've listed above.



Sanford said:


> My original point was that one person incessantly posting that at the end of the road the only benefit was unpleasant/unnecessary work and a plastic trophy could only doing so based on his own hangup or bias, as the numbers don't stack that way. Quite harmless Internet banter, unless you think that by a person seeking confirmation that the person is happy, they are doing so by running down what others do and might discourage some new folks here from seeking what millions of folks find very satisfying.


Sanford...why you refuse to believe that other archers have Goals, Abilities and Personalities that differ from yours...or that it's impossible to derive fun, pleasure and relaxation from archery without being completely and entirely competition focused is beyond me....it also blows my mind that you choose to take just about everything I post out of context so you can twist it up tight...grind a fine point on it...and aim it directly at me with constant attacks on a personal level.

I think my track record speaks for itself here...I have a deep seated passion for archery....I've attended Rod Jenkins Clinic....I've owned just about every type of bow known to man because I wanted to try and experience them all...and then decide which direction is best for me and discover what it is I enjoy most about archery and benefit from it in a very personal way...from my end?...this is our final exchange...trash talk me all you like sir...but know it now all falls on deaf ears...yet I still wish you the best in life and archery...happy shooting and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, I think you read yourself right into my post. I was posting to Centershot with nary a mention of you. But see, you know the little trail of crumbs in jabs you love to leave and can even follow them yourself. Just remember, it's all just tongue and cheek stuff here. Happy shooting to you too! No one is trashing you, just wondering why you need to misrepresent what others do in archery. Really, I would not say anything bad at all, buy if we're not allowed to talk and poke at the other side or your snide comments, you shouldn't make them in the first place.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, I think you read yourself right into my post. I was posting to Centershot with nary a mention of you. But see, you know the little trail of crumbs in jabs you love to leave and can even follow them yourself. Just remember, it's all just tongue and cheek stuff here. Happy shooting to you too! No one is trashing you, just wondering why you need to misrepresent what others do in archery. Really, I would not say anything bad at all, buy if we can't talk and laugh at the other side or your comments, you shouldn't make them in the first place.


What you did was to bait a trap with a picture of cheese...and what you caught was a picture of a mouse....where you should've ate the picture of the cheese in hopes that it would feed your starving ego...and yes...by all means...happy shooting and?...bye-bye.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Just checked out the Volvo65 and America's Cup sites and it got me thinking about Archery again.

When I was teaching a lot, a goal became to make the learning/execution process as simple as possible. Got it down to 3 (yes three) steps...and they apply to Archery.

1) Attitude (Is your vessel turtle? Bow down? Is the crew happy? How is Captain Attitude doing?)
2) Direction (Pointing that projectile in the right direction? Or are you planning on going the wrong direction quickly?)
3) Power (Apply power "Sail just in from luffing!" when 1 & 2 are correct...and not prior to that. How and when to draw and loose?).

On a boat we used all sorts a stuff to get a good range. GPS, Knot Meter, Depth Sounder, etc., etc. One common combo was Knot Meter, GPS SOG and GPS COG which gave you good current data/state. On a board, it was all senses. I really like Instinctive Shooting in several sports.

The most common tools my students had were warm cloths, a life jacket (required to be worn), maybe sunscreen and a hat. No GPS, no Sat Nav, no Knot Meter. Now they may have some of this stuff in a smartphone in a water proof container?

Safety first...and the first rule is 'Point that projectile in the right direction'...or something like that.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Starving ego? That's an oft mentioned trait you use for target shooters, yet, I'm picking on you! See my point.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shoot

...5. to send forth (words, ideas,etc.) rapidly...


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

all theses type of threads just remind me deer season is just around the corner...i love the summer with golf, lake fun, beer drinking, grilling, beer drinking, grillling, beer drinking, grilling, golf, shooting my bow everyday but im addicted being in the woods, in a ground blind, at the hunting camp with my brother and best friend


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jinks, I'm sure I probably attend as many BIG 3-D shoots as anyone on here and I can honestly say we don't get caught up in waiting in those long lines you referred to...this year I've shot probably 11-12 ASA IBO local shoots and maybe waited behind other shooters a grand total of 25 minutes..TOTAL.

I wonder sometimes why you will see 5000 shooters,spectators show up at a fun shoot and only 300 show up at a shoot like TBOF or many of the other wonderfully ran competition shoots throughout the US...are people scared to death to shoot with other shooters and keep score or domthey just dont like to keep score period??


I wonder if a major organization like IBO partnered with a major fun shoot like the HH or ETAR or Denton Hill or one of those gigantic fun shoots how many would actually shoot the scored competition course??



Just a thought.




Dewayne


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Jinks, I'm sure I probably attend as many BIG 3-D shoots as anyone on here and I can honestly say we don't get caught up in waiting in those long lines you referred to...this year I've shot probably 11-12 ASA IBO local shoots and maybe waited behind other shooters a grand total of 25 minutes..TOTAL.
> 
> I wonder sometimes why you will see 5000 shooters,spectators show up at a fun shoot and only 300 show up at a shoot like TBOF or many of the other wonderfully ran competition shoots throughout the US...are people scared to death to shoot with other shooters and keep score or domthey just dont like to keep score period??
> 
> ...


Dewayne, the answer is in the post above you. LOL.
Dan


----------



## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Agree with Dewayne. I spend more time waiting for trad shooters to search for lost arrows that completely miss targets than I do for compound shooters to shoot a target! Just my experience at numerous shoots.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> Jinks, I'm sure I probably attend as many BIG 3-D shoots as anyone on here and I can honestly say we don't get caught up in waiting in those long lines you referred to...this year I've shot probably 11-12 ASA IBO local shoots and maybe waited behind other shooters a grand total of 25 minutes..TOTAL.
> 
> I wonder sometimes why you will see 5000 shooters,spectators show up at a fun shoot and only 300 show up at a shoot like TBOF or many of the other wonderfully ran competition shoots throughout the US...are people scared to death to shoot with other shooters and keep score or domthey just dont like to keep score period??
> 
> ...


Dewayne...one of my closest trad shooting buds has rock solid form and is a lights out shot...he actually makes it look easy to hold softball sized groups (and smaller) out to 30yds or so which is pretty freaking good in my book anyways...and there's two things he has a great disdain for doing...one is "Discussing Aiming Methods" and the other?..."Keeping Score"....and he's not the only great shot I know that is like that....and you know my story about running into and getting invited to shoot with "Pat Carter" at the last TBOF so I won't bore the crowd with that one again but he's another one...who's also close friends with Jackie Bushmen, Dickie Betts and Byron Ferguson...and?...Denny Sturgis and Rod Jenkins....go figure...the guy just likes to relax and shoot...and he's a damn good shot!

As far as waiting in lines goes?...no...there's not much of that at all...it the turtle slow pace of waiting for the wheel bow group ahead of us to finish up and move on...there's been times we've just "Shot Around Them"...where we would just jump to whatever the next open target was and there's been many times we'd be finished up with both rounds while the compounders were still out on the course finishing their 1st round....and qualifiers?...forgeddaboutit!...we won't even THINK about going to those anymore! :laugh:

But it is what it is man...on one hand?...I can clearly see where the competitive types who've worked hard to position themselves in the upper rankings are and should be very concerned about nurturing the next generation of competitors....but on the other hand?...some of us have some very simplistic yet extremely valuable (to us as well) ideals of what archery has to offer by way of fun and relaxation...which when the scales get tipped and biase hard toward competitive archery?...rapidly become well hidden treasures...for some (but not all) of us.

And I for one am very willing to be open-minded and subjective regarding the journeys of others....but does that mean I have to hide mine?...and just lurk and not express what it is I find of value in archery?...because here I ws rubbing shoulders with Dana Chatooh (AKA "Redbow" and not only an excellent archer and coach but also the archer who won that longbow competition at TBOF) yet I chose to tag along with a bunch of laid back bumpkins and had the time of my life BUT....I would absolutely NOT recommend that many others do what I did IF "competitive archery" is their primary goal...I'd be telling them to do whatever they had to do to get close to Dana and learn from him...just to be fair, balanced...and respectful of others. 

That's the way I see it anyways...who knows...maybe one day I will get the bug again....bungee cord that Black Widow too my Vulcan and come do my best to keep you honest! :laugh:


----------



## mag92803 (Feb 15, 2014)

Paul68 said:


> Similar to catching fish with a fly line and dry-fly vice dynamite - it requires a lot more skill, focus and work to trick a wary trout into taking a dry fly, which increases the challenge and hence the reward for landing a nice fish. You can catch more fish with dynamite, so why spend all that time and money on fly-fishing gear and hours of casting? It's the journey.
> 
> I couldn't say it any better, so I won't attempt to.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Ya know?....I got to thinking that the title of this thread is in fact...*"Why Instinctive?"*

To which my short answer should be...

"Because I can!" :laugh:

and another short answer could be...

"Because I'm Good At It!" 

but my best answer?...is because it makes me happy...and I can't buy that these days...this is my first attempt at the first ever first shot call on A.T.

"a business card at 20yds"...no practice....no warm up....from cold out of the quiver....and I usually don't get that excited over "a shot"


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

vabowdog said:


> Jinks, I'm sure I probably attend as many BIG 3-D shoots as anyone on here and I can honestly say we don't get caught up in waiting in those long lines you referred to...this year I've shot probably 11-12 ASA IBO local shoots and maybe waited behind other shooters a grand total of 25 minutes..TOTAL.
> 
> I wonder sometimes why you will see 5000 shooters,spectators show up at a fun shoot and only 300 show up at a shoot like TBOF or many of the other wonderfully ran competition shoots throughout the US...are people scared to death to shoot with other shooters and keep score or domthey just dont like to keep score period??
> 
> ...


About the same number as always the rest would be afraid of having to shoot those groups they talk about on the net or god forbid have two card scoring. 

Talking about how good you are or how effective your style of aiming is very different that stepping up and putting it on the line. Targets don't lie either it's in or it's out - close don't count. 

Matt


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> About the same number as always the rest would be afraid of having to shoot those groups they talk about on the net or god forbid have two card scoring.
> 
> Talking about how good you are or how effective your style of aiming is very different that stepping up and putting it on the line. Targets don't lie either it's in or it's out - close don't count.
> Matt







Matt, I believe that's ALOT of it but I can't believe that's all...even the die hard instinctive from my club will come to a shoot and keep score...even a larger shoot like IBO.


Dewayne


----------



## graysquirrel (Jan 3, 2010)

And the tall ugly guy from Montana hits the 11 ring with both eyes closed


Matt_Potter said:


> About the same number as always the rest would be afraid of having to shoot those groups they talk about on the net or god forbid have two card scoring.
> 
> Talking about how good you are or how effective your style of aiming is very different that stepping up and putting it on the line. Targets don't lie either it's in or it's out - close don't count.
> 
> Matt


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to shoot a particular style. Nothing wrong with it not being the most accurate. Only reason people seem to be butting heads over all of this is when subjective comparisons of personal enjoyment start to be used in place of objective measures. If you enjoy a style, that's terrific. However if a new archer is asking about shooting styles, be honest about it. "It works for me and I enjoy it" is perfectly fine. You don't need to justify it being better for hunting, or effective on fur, or you'll have to shoot out of position, or you don't need to calculate the distance to the inch when the big buck is running away, etc. You don't need this stuff. If you're enjoying it, that's all that really cuonts. If the accuracy is an issue, just be honest about it.

NFAA was created for bowhunters, by bowhunters. Field archery was created for bowhunters by bowhunters. IBO, and any 3D, the closest thing to hunting that is possible, was created for bowhunters by bowhunters. It's ok to keep score, you are in fact supposed to here. It's ok not to keep score. It's ok to not shoot all that well too. If you're happy, what's it matter then? It's a gauge though, of how effective that style might be compared to others. There was a rather rude comment made on a facebook thread along the lines of target archers never killing anything. The individual was a big Hill fan. Hill shot a heck of a lot of field archery. If you like you're method, that's great. Lead with that. If someone is curious how it stacks up, just be honest. This target vs. hunting thing is just silly.

Why instinctive? I shot a back to back set of rounds to compare the two a couple months ago. Out of 100 points on an NFAA face I scored something like 82 at first with gapping. Then I shot the same face, same anchor, just ignoring the arrow and scored 87, which is incredibly high for me, shooting instinctively. Clearly it's not really all the aiming method. I tried it at 30 yards. I shot ok, but when I moved to 35 yards I felt unsteady, unsure. Gapping gave me confidence. I doubt others have the same hang ups I do.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I used to shoot instinctive and I was pretty good at it too. Then I met people who didn't and realized I wasn't.

-Grant


----------



## mobertoky (Mar 31, 2012)

The only method I have ever used in shooting a trad bow is "instinctive", so many people say there is no such thing as "instinctive" shooting. So I have adopted the "Feel method" (My own terminology)
When it feels good I release, almost subconsciously. I have been shooting trad for 3yrs now. When I was a kid I shot recurves (just flinging arrows) When I was 16 I got a compound and started killing deer. Now I want to get big game the way my dad did. At this time I have no interest in a new methods (Gap). I am having fun and not doing to bad IMHO, last year I would say my effective range on deer would of been around 22yrds. As I live in Ca, It is tough to even get a good shot in a season, In two yrs now I have shot at 1 buck and missed, probably a miss with my sold Hoyt Katera too.
1. Fun.
2. Nostalgic, remembrance of dad.
3. don't have to know distance.
4. Simple and off the shelf.
5. Rewarding.
6. concentration
And probably probably many other factors not off the cuff at the moment.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

When I had a club close by I attended the shoots, kept score and tried to win.

Some of you guys have convinced me that some competition would be good for me so I found 2 clubs within 50 or 60 miles (close enough for a day trip) that run regular 3-d shoots.

Then I ended up out of work and can't go the 50 miles. I doubt I'll ever be able to travel the country going to shoots (if I get working I'll have the money but not the time, LOL) but I want to get out and shoot what I can within weekend driving distance. Cloverdale is even close enough to get to...provided I could use the truck. 

My interest is hunting but, truth be told, I don't really get to hunt all that much...well, not where there's any deer. Shooting in the backyard just isn't getting the results that I want.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I've done quite a bit of "instinctive" shooting. I even shoot out in the yard at night without lights. Sometimes I do really well for a while and then it goes away. I need something more mechanical and reliable for general use.

I doubt you'll catch me filing the sights off of my squirrel rifle.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I used to shoot instinctive and I was pretty good at it too. Then I met people who didn't and realized I wasn't.
> 
> -Grant


My condolences...sorry for your loss.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Another key aspect allot of people seem to over look is that there are different levels of conscious awareness. This is where the terms Split Vision, Gapstinctive and Indirect Aiming are sometimes used to help describe when an archer just looks and focuses on the target yet at some level they are consciously aware of their arrow and it's position within their peripheral vision.

The less consciously aware a person is in regards to their aiming reference...the more instinctive like the aiming technique becomes.

Ray :shade:


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> My condolences...sorry for your loss.


I used to have to work so hard everyday just to get moderately accurate. I spent all my time looking for arrows and worrying if I'd have enough to finish the day. A good score at 3D was when I averaged better than 5 points on a target. Shooting 3D used to be hard. I remember straining with all my might to just burn that hole into the target so my arrow would find it.

I see all these "instinctive" types and they step up to the stake. STARE at that target HARD for about 10 seconds, you can almost see the veins starting to bulge out of their neck. Up comes the bow and the arrow is gone in a flash. Then they spend the next 20 seconds trying to see where in the brush it landed. Then spend another 5 minutes looking for it.
That is a hard way to spend to day.

A 3D for me is easy now! I show up and shoot maybe 20 arrows at the warm-up, sometimes I skip that. I step up to the stake and take a quick look in my binos. Everything is low stress, nothing really matters too much. I shoot the shot and most of the time it's a 10, sometimes an 8 and occasionally a 5. I don't have to spend half the day digging in the weeds because my arrows are there in the target.

Funny how I used to work so hard and never won a thing. Now I work so little and haven't taken second in literally 3 years.

I wouldn't say I've "lost" anything.

-Grant


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I wouldn't say I've "lost" anything.
> 
> -Grant


Yes, there's lots of archery beyond the kiddie stakes! Shot a lot of archery with seeing instinctive snap shooters in 3D, without competition and just on bales, and many just shooting for fun. I fully came to realize that all the good ones must all shoot on the Internet  Like anyone else, I can shoot pretty good that way myself, but nothing worth what archery has to offer the unsighted archer.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Grant, glad you found a way that makes you happy and more accurate....there comes a time that an archer has to accept that his accuracy won't get any better until something changes...for me I was a good instinctive shooter but not good enough to win a shoot or hit the target in the same place three times at all different distances.


Good for you for changing,don't let the computer shooters beat you up about gapping or non instinctive.


Congrats,


Dewayne


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It appears that we're having trouble making an objective case for "instinctive" aiming.

So how might we sum up? Instinctive shooting is relaxing and fun for some people but the archer who is serious about hitting what they shoot at on a regular basis should use some other aiming system?


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Why not use some other aiming system like Gapping at the arrow. (Very accurate I might add) and then when necessary shoot instinctive at unmarked or hunting when a rangefinder isn't handy At intermediate yardages. when I am shooting a marked shoot I am going to gap if its unmarked I will shoot instinctive out to about 30 but at the longer shots im guessing and gapping. So I use what is best for the shot that is in front of me. I think those of you who dont gap need to learn how and you who dont shoot instinctive learn how then you will have the best of both aiming systems in your quiver. When I miss using one aiming system over the other it's not because one is better its because I'm freaking out!!! Some of us here need to quit worrying which is better and learn how to shoot.
Gary
QUOTE=MGF;1070457757]It appears that we're having trouble making an objective case for "instinctive" aiming.

So how might we sum up? Instinctive shooting is relaxing and fun for some people but the archer who is serious about hitting what they shoot at on a regular basis should use some other aiming system?[/QUOTE]


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

So you're saying that gaping is more reliable. Got it. Thanks.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

2413gary said:


> Why not use some other aiming system like Gapping at the arrow. (Very accurate I might add) and then when necessary shoot instinctive at unmarked or hunting when a rangefinder isn't handy At intermediate yardages. when I am shooting a marked shoot I am going to gap if its unmarked I will shoot instinctive out to about 30 but at the longer shots im guessing and gapping. So I use what is best for the shot that is in front of me. I think those of you who dont gap need to learn how and you who dont shoot instinctive learn how then you will have the best of both aiming systems in your quiver. When I miss using one aiming system over the other it's not because one is better its because I'm freaking out!!! Some of us here need to quit worrying which is better and learn how to shoot.
> Gary


I apologize for that last post. After reading it again, it comes off as a little rude.

I'm not sure I really get what you're saying though. You mention shooting instinctively when shooting unmarked distances or hunting without a range finder. I don't shoot at deer past 25 yards or so and my gap (at the target) only changes by a few inches over that distance. From 5 yards to a little over 20 yards, I can use the same gap and not be more than a couple inches high or low. So for deer sized game all I need to know is that it's close enough and I can shoot the same gap. Why would it help to ignore the arrow that's right in front of me? Doesn't it also help in regard to windage (left/right)?

Out past 25 yards it's a different story because my arrow starts dropping pretty fast.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

No one has to make a case for Instinctive Aiming...especially with just a few people over the internet.

History has proven what it needs to.

The facts are.....some can....and some can't.

Instinctive Aiming has never shown to be superior on the target line for most archers or for most types of competitions.

For those that have truly mastered it...Instinctive Aiming's advantages are within close distance and in hunting circumstances where a quick shot is needed.

What's also interesting...is that some archers find relaxation and pure enjoyment with Instinctive Aiming...even if that have yet to master it.

Ultimately....it's the G.A.P. profile that determines what works best for an archer....whether it be String Walking, Instinctive Aiming or any other aiming technique.

Ray :shade:


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> For those that have truly mastered it...Instinctive Aiming's advantages are within close distance and in hunting circumstances where a quick shot is needed.
> 
> What's also interesting...is that some archers find relaxation and pure enjoyment with Instinctive Aiming...even if that have yet to master it.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I don't think shooting quickly is necessary for hunting (compounds kill a lot more deer lately than stickbows on the whole) and gapping can be done in a split second.

However, instinctive is still a perfectly viable way to shoot and if the only difference between it and another style is that a person enjoys it more, that's all that's necessary, as you said.

Steve Morely also won a world title shooting instinctively. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong?


----------



## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Steve won the 2009 WA 3D championship, longbow division... but they have an instinctive division too. No idea how he was aiming, though. Also the 2004 IFAA world field archery championship, longbow. He just won the IFAA European Bowhunter Championship men's barebow division last week. Maybe he'll stop by and tell us.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> No one has to make a case for Instinctive Aiming...especially with just a few people over the internet.
> 
> History has proven what it needs to.


That's a fact.



BLACK WOLF said:


> The facts are.....some can....and some can't.


Ray...while I agree with you that the varying degrees of "Hand/Eye Coordination Skills" (from archer too archer) do play a huge role when opting to snap-shoot?...I'm not so sure I agree with the above (as it pertains to "aiming instinctively") and here's why...

I find that the ability to aim instinctively is not a skill that some are born with and some aren't...it's the result of adopting a certain mindset while accepting that it is going to take lots of practice and dedication to get good at it with a "time takes time" mentality and also...



BLACK WOLF said:


> What's also interesting...is that some archers find relaxation and pure enjoyment with Instinctive Aiming...even if that have yet to master it.


The key here to me is in fact "RELAXTION"...however...it is not a byproduct it is a prerequisite...as I must achieve an empty (almost zen like) state of mind before ever beginning to draw the string...and if I do achieve this?...what follows complete relaxation is elation...at how easy it was to execute an extremely well placed shot...provided of course that I was in fact able to completely surrender the shot to a lower state of consciousness...and as I type this?...here is where I would never be so bold as to think or state that "I've Mastered It"...no such thing...and here's why....



BLACK WOLF said:


> Instinctive Aiming has never shown to be superior on the target line for most archers or for most types of competitions.


The reason the above is absolutely true?...is because even though I feel I have a solid in depth understanding of how instinctive works?...it's that very understanding that brings too realization the fact that I can not attain that "empty mind zen like mental state" to the same degree consistently on a daily basis....and this is where the basic aspects of Kyudo enter into the instinctive picture for me and "Life Management Skills" can and do play a huge role in dictating just how relaxed or zen like I can become on any given day as if I'm up in my head about this issue or that matter in my personal life?...achieving such a mental state becomes more difficult...and then yes...that's when the script gets flipped and this is where you would be correct in that..."Relaxation Becomes The Result"...(and not the prerequisite)...so it can and does work both ways for me yet this is exactly where scores at the target vary. 



BLACK WOLF said:


> Instinctive Aiming's advantages are within close distance and in hunting circumstances where a quick shot is needed.


If combined with well honed snap-shooting skills?...yes.....but in and of itself?...no...I'm finding that aiming instinctively has little to do with increasing speed of execution...and a simple review of my daily videos where I'm participating in the "300rd Cold Shot" event/thread where I'm alternating daily between form/gap and instinctive/snap will reveal that I take almost exactly the same amount of time per shot either way...for me?..it's like this....

Form/Gap: I'm taking my time on the back end at full draw consciously aiming. 

Instinctive/Snap: I'm taking my time on the front end relaxing and visualizing the shot before I ever begin to draw the string.

But oddly enough?....they both take the same approximate amount of time...when shooting for score on targets. 

But yes...if I just let go completely and snap shoot at close distance using nothing but visualization and muscle memory...I can actually even incorporate a floating anchor and get a shot off real quick...and "Fairly Accurate" I might add! :laugh:

In the following vid I started shooting 12 seconds into it...by 51 seconds?....I had loosed 6 well placed shots in 39 seconds...(not that that's "speed shooting")...but it was done with very little (if any) conscious effort on my part....








BLACK WOLF said:


> Ultimately....it's the G.A.P. profile that determines what works best for an archer....whether it be String Walking, Instinctive Aiming or any other aiming technique.
> 
> Ray :shade:


It's Sunday...so yes....indeed...and?...AMEN! 



kegan said:


> I don't think shooting quickly is necessary for hunting (compounds kill a lot more deer lately than stickbows on the whole) and gapping can be done in a split second.


Kegan...God Bless ya man! :laugh:

and you know I love what you do for archery but...when I read those first few lines above?...I blew coffee all over my keyboard...cause I automatically had two thoughts cross my mind.....

1. Either you got some really slow relaxed deer or you're hunting over a food plot/feeder.

and?...

2. Gap in a split second?...are you SURE you're not "Instinctive"? :laugh:

so?...maybe you do have some relaxed deer and a really fast mind! :laugh:

or?...maybe my minds just getting like a turtle with age. 

Thanks for that....gave me my laugh of the day! Bill.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

kegan said:


> ....... and gapping can be done in a split second.


Byron Ferguson shoots flying aspirin out of the air doing same! At a close range, he's about 90/10 concentration on target and arrow tip by his estimation and perception, which sounds about right till one move out some more. At least, that's the way it works for me as well (well, never tried aspirin ), so I never really get hung up on defining it, as that could also be called a split-vision but feels more instinctive to me.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Dead Lion

Good shootin Jinks. That's a very effective shooting method, if practiced. After I read the story of a mountain lion attack by Barry Wensel, I wondered how I would do under those conditions. Having always shot instinctively I did make the kill shot on the first try. The difference is that I usually hold at anchor for a second or two. A lion in attack mode can cover lots of ground during that time so I started practicing with the floating anchor and snap release. It's extremely effective and satisfying at close range. I do pretty well out to about twenty yds. I am not likely to ever face that situation but, I still like to practice it, just in case. And it's fun too.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jinks, just wondering something...I see you snap shooting on videos and seeming pretty accurate but seems like you're in the same place in your yard?? Do you switch distances much or just staying in the same place.

I know for me if I shoot ALOT at 20 yards or so it's probably more muscle memory than anything else...like indoors in the wintertime.

How accurate is snap shooting when you're mixin it up from 8-10 different yardages?? Like 18,24,11,16, and so on...when I use to shoot instinctive I could get fairly accurate when I shot one distance because of muscle memory but when I mixed it up it went south.


Not being sarcastic just wondering


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

kegan said:


> Steve Morely also won a world title shooting instinctively. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong?


Yes and No, when I won my first few National titles I shot Instinctively, I tended to blend my aiming after that using Gap for marked distances and Split-vision/Instinctive on unmarked 3D's so WA3D in 2009 was a little of both, WA3D is like IBO with close range shooting so Instinct is valid for this round specially as split finger/wood arrows was the requirement, when I switched to Instinctive Rec div and 3 under I just kept to Gap method. It doesn't matter how you aim, just whatever method your using works for your particular shooting situation.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> Kegan...God Bless ya man! :laugh:
> 
> and you know I love what you do for archery but...when I read those first few lines above?...I blew coffee all over my keyboard...cause I automatically had two thoughts cross my mind.....
> 
> ...


There ya go again Bill 

Your basing your nasty comments here on what the two deer you wounded years ago with a bow or the handful you killed with a rifle??

Ask any guy who has actually hunted over a feeder and you will be told they are some of the very spookiest in the woods. But don't let that slow you down. 

Setting your 15-25 yard gap takes no more time than instinctive. Unless you are shooting at running animals instinctive has no realistic advantage in a hunting scenario. I'm basing this statement on the 50+ deer I've shot instinctive verses the 10-15 I've killed gap / string-walking.


----------



## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have attended 3 Trad Worlds and have been able to watch some of the best shooters around use all kinds of aiming methods. Trust me, none of them would be at a "disadvantage" in the whitetail woods, guite the contrary actually. Speck


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> No one has to make a case for Instinctive Aiming...especially with just a few people over the internet.


Of course not but they continue to try anyway.


> History has proven what it needs to.
> 
> The facts are.....some can....and some can't.
> 
> ...


Where has history proven those "advantages"?


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> ..when I use to shoot instinctive I could get fairly accurate when I shot one distance because of muscle memory but when I mixed it up it went south.
> 
> 
> Not being sarcastic just wondering


Similar experience. I would shoot at lot at 20, and then go to a tournament, and send one right over at 10


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

That's exactly what I was trying to say your gap works perfect for how you shoot. Not trying to be rude and I never ignore the arrow it's impossible it's right in front of my face. Weather I'm Gapping or instinctive.


MGF said:


> I apologize for that last post. After reading it again, it comes off as a little rude.
> 
> I'm not sure I really get what you're saying though. You mention shooting instinctively when shooting unmarked distances or hunting without a range finder. I don't shoot at deer past 25 yards or so and my gap (at the target) only changes by a few inches over that distance. From 5 yards to a little over 20 yards, I can use the same gap and not be more than a couple inches high or low. So for deer sized game all I need to know is that it's close enough and I can shoot the same gap. Why would it help to ignore the arrow that's right in front of me? Doesn't it also help in regard to windage (left/right)?
> 
> Out past 25 yards it's a different story because my arrow starts dropping pretty fast.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Where I come from deer hunting is a game of moving slow or not at all. In fact that's the hardest thing about it for me, especially, when it's cold. The idea is to shoot at a
"relaxed" unalarmed deer that doesn't know you're there. And yes, the guys with the relatively slow to shoot sighted compounds with a mechanical release kill more deer.

Good luck trying to snap shoot an alarmed deer on the move.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> Jinks, just wondering something...I see you snap shooting on videos and seeming pretty accurate but seems like you're in the same place in your yard?? Do you switch distances much or just staying in the same place.
> 
> I know for me if I shoot ALOT at 20 yards or so it's probably more muscle memory than anything else...like indoors in the wintertime.
> 
> ...


It depends on a lot of things s to what I do or what distance/distances I shoot from...like for instance right now I'm engaged in that 300rd Firs Shot deal so my quiver hasn't left the 20yd stake in nearly a week now because I'm sort of conducting an experiment of my own along the way by alternating daily between form/gap and instinctive/snap for my first 3 shots of each day...and hoping that maybe this will reveal something....what?...I dunno...as I'm trying my best to be as subjective as possible about it...but to answer your question?...yes...I do "normally" practice from a variety of distances and typically start out shooting an end or two at 15yds....then 18yds...then 20 and if I'm feeling good and confident I might even squeeze in a few rounds at 25yds 27yds and even 30 when the bushes are trimmed! :laugh:

But after I get a few ends of practice in at a variety of distances?...my favorite thing to end off with is what I call roving walk-backs where I often times try to get creative and fit in a number of different shooting positions as well...just for practice but mostly for fun. 

Like so....


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

JINKSTER, Cool shooting. Nice side quiver. Now that my sound modules are working again I hope to see more of your great vids.

Some time ago the squirrel that likes to drop parts of Redwood dingle berries on me and in my tent saw a 1/4 draw wrist rocket shot of a dingle berry go just above and then back down again. Not close...just close enough. That squirrel then decided to drop berrys elsewhere.

And the crows in my hood do not like Instinctive Shot (no eye protection and elastic bands) dingle berries.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

wseward said:


> JINKSTER, Cool shooting. Nice side quiver. Now that my sound modules are working again I hope to see more of your great vids.
> 
> Some time ago the squirrel that likes to drop parts of Redwood dingle berries on me and in my tent saw a 1/4 draw wrist rocket shot of a dingle berry go just above and then back down again. Not close...just close enough. That squirrel then decided to drop berrys elsewhere.
> 
> And the crows in my hood do not like Instinctive Shot (no eye protection and elastic bands) dingle berries.


Now there's a video I would like to see.
Dan


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Oh yea...and the squirrel dropping dingle berries...right now...has dropped a few dense one. So, soon I will be looking for those dense ones.

The dense ones are better for the longer draw Instinctive Shots.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> I don't think shooting quickly is necessary for hunting (compounds kill a lot more deer lately than stickbows on the whole) and gapping can be done in a split second.


It's not necessary for all types of hunting. I can't recall anyone saying it was...but aiming Instinctively is inherently quicker than any of the other aiming techniques which can therefore be an advantage under those specific circumstances if the archer chooses to learn it and utilize it.



JINKSTER said:


> I find that the ability to aim instinctively is not a skill that some are born with and some aren't...it's the result of adopting a certain mindset while accepting that it is going to take lots of practice and dedication to get good at it with a "time takes time" mentality and also...


Before you rush into disagreeing with me...you first need to understand the context of my statement.

I truly believe that anyone can learn to do just about anything if they put their mind to it...even the kids who seem uncoordinated and un-athletic. Where there's a will...there's a way...BUT...Instinctive Aiming in some cases does NOT fit an archer's G.A.P. profile and they will find it more of a challenge to master and achieve the results they desire with it and they will usually give up on it and move on.

People are surely born with different gifts. Not everyone has the same exact gifts. It's easy to see...especially in children...where some kids seem to excel in sports while others excel in academics.

Just because an archer aims Instinctively does not mean they shoot very fast. Some archers can just stand there and stare at the target for days before they decide to draw and shoot. Others such as Kyudo archers...have a whole shot sequence they follow for every arrow and even hold at anchor.

The mistake many people make...especially over the internet...is to make poor assumptions without asking questions.

When I say Instinctive Aiming has an advantage when a fast shot is needed...I'm NOT saying that every archer is using that advantage. I'm saying the advantage is there if an archer wants to learn how to utilize it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## themist (Jun 11, 2014)

centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


Your sig answers the question well.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I think it's been said often enough here, "instinctive" does work but it's not as effective as other methods over the full spectrum of shoots so why bother learning something that is flawed, seems counter productive to me.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> I think it's been said often enough here, "instinctive" does work but it's not as effective as other methods over the full spectrum of shoots so why bother learning something that is flawed, seems counter productive to me.


It's really only 'flawed' or at a disadvantage under specific circumstances with specific people.

For some archers...it's the perfect aiming technique. For others...it's the worst.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's really only 'flawed' or at a disadvantage under specific circumstances with specific people.
> 
> For some archers...it's the perfect aiming technique. For others...it's the worst.
> 
> Ray :shade:


It can't be perfect for anyone, no aiming style is. What you call instinctive is all made up of muscle memory, retained site pictures and timing. If all those are in sync the it can work at limited ranges. If one of those elements is off however, the whole this goes south. At least with gap or SW you have a formula to fall back on even if things are off kilter.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> It can't be perfect for anyone, no aiming style is.


Exactly what do you think I mean by 'perfect' and what would you consider your 'perfect' aiming technique and shooting form is?

If you don't believe any technique is perfect for you or anyone else...than they are ALL flawed :wink:



Bigjono said:


> What you call instinctive is all made up of muscle memory, retained site pictures and timing. If all those are in sync the it can work at limited ranges. If one of those elements is off however, the whole this goes south. At least with gap or SW you have a formula to fall back on even if things are off kilter.


I totally agree...but it's not the aiming technique that's flawed or imperfect...it's the archer who is trying to utilize it that makes the mistakes.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

Not sure what you would call it but when I shoot I hold my bow hand out before the shot and focus down the arrow shaft and on the spot I want to hit. I will remain there until I can almost visualize the arrow in flight. Then I draw and release. I will get 4 out of 5 arrows in the kill zone out to 20 yards this way. I have only been doing this for a year and until this summer not very often but now almost daily I will shot from 15-23 yards. I miss plenty but I hit way more than I ever did trying to gap shoot. I get some nice groups too. The biggest cause of my misses is lack of focus. I know it as soon as I get to full draw that I wasn't focused and sure enough I'm pulling my arrow out of my back stop.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Exactly what do you think I mean by 'perfect' and what would you consider your 'perfect' aiming technique and shooting form is?
> 
> If you don't believe any technique is perfect for you or anyone else...than they are ALL flawed :wink:
> 
> ...


I can't speak for all Ray but the instinctive crowd I see have no reference points anywhere in their shot so if timing is out they are screwed. Mind you 90% of them are horrible shots anyway.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Instinctive aiming isn't faster the snap shooting that normally accompanies it is faster - good instinctive shots don't snap shoot. Guys with target panic snap shoot.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Yep...Lars has target panic for sure and he obviously sucks at what he does LOL Give me a break!!!!

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

That's one...maybe. I'm not sure that one-off anecdotes are all that useful.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Maybe...what???

You need to get out more if you think that there's only a one-off. 

Here's another LOL

Snap shooting can be very effective under the right circumstances with the right archers.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi New member and first post. I have been reading this thread as I am now shooting a recurve , non sight. I have shot compound bow hunter division and some FITA recurve. I now shoot non sighted just for the simplicity of shooting, no adjustments no tinkering with gadgets. I have read all the different aspects put forward in this thread and for myself it comes down to a blend of all of them. First off shooting sight has shown me that form is quite important for accuracy. Hand position, finger position and pressure on the string , length of draw, follow through , can and will affect flight pattern and accuracy so form would be a big factor to accuracy. As far as gap versus instinct, for me it is a balance. Yes I shoot a gap, I know my point on and I know my gaps at certain yardages but it is blended with how the shot looks when I pull into my anchor, particularly on unmarked distances. Fine adjustments are made quickly just before the shot, I would consider this an instinct type shot. Severe uphill and downhill shots are certainly instinctive and shot for how I see the arrow traveling that distance, but if I know a target is at my point on I will most certainly use the tip of the arrow for aiming. I think all non sight shooters do this to some extent, so again I see accuracy at all the distances is a balance of all the styles. I shot with a longbow shooter at an unmarked tournament a month ago and she told me she shot instinctive later I asked what her point on was, she told me 35 yards.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

This is the number one problem I see with the term Instinctive Aiming.

For those that believe it exists as a specific aiming technique...it can be considered the same thing as Gapstinctive, Indirect Aiming, Split Vision and even Gap in some cases depending on what the person thinks the technique involves.

The key to understanding what Instinctive Aiming is...is to understand what the differences are. All the aiming techniques share things in common...but the reason why they're each given a name/names is because they are in fact different in some way.

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Maybe...what???
> 
> You need to get out more if you think that there's only a one-off.
> 
> ...


By "get out more", you mean on youtube, right?


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Yep...Lars has target panic for sure and he obviously sucks at what he does LOL Give me a break!!!!
> 
> Ray :shade:


Wow I'll have to practice that it definitely has hunting applications - you never know when you will need to shoot 5 arrows at a deer while jumping out of a tree stand.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The lengths some people will go to to try and discredit an aiming technique, style and/or even the people who utilize it is ridiculous.

The videos are just a representation of what some archers can do aiming Instinctively and Snap Shooting. It merely proves the speed and accuracy that can be achieved with those techniques.

All it is is just doing the research rather than becoming prejudice or bias because of some archers ridiculing others at a 3D shoot for String Walking or using some other aiming technique besides Instinctive. 

If anyone wants to discover how accurate and efficient a style or technique can be...just research the areas where those techniques can be an advantage. There are plenty of archers that can make it work. You just don't usually find them winning classical style archery tournaments.

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It doesn't have anything to do with prejudice or trying to discredit anything. It's matter of analyzing the capability of a process or method in regard to the application.

There might be guys who jump off a platform and shoot 3 very close airborne targets before they hit the ground. 

Then we have that exhibition shooter...I can't think of his name but he goes by aspirinebuster on the forums. He does all his public shooting behind the back. That's really instinctive. The arrow isn't in front of him at all. I guess it works for what he does but how many others is it going to work for? So now we say that "good form" means whatever you want it to mean and start talking GAP, right?

Cool. It's just that the vast majority of archers in my part of the world are doing something very different with a bow.

What do they do? They hunt (white-tailed deer probably more than anything by number of hunters), shoot indoor target in the winter, 3-d, field or something in the summer...or maybe just targets in the yard and/or some stump shooting. Most of the archers who come here (including the new archers) have some combination of the above in mind.

Given that context, do we really want to use Lars Anderson as our case study? We can always dig up a statistical flyer (or three) to back up any strange case we'd like to try to make. We can do it but it probably isn't very useful.

Good basic form (and you know what I'm talking about) and an aiming system (usually using the arrow in some manor) is going to be more successful for the vast majority of archers who are engaged in the above mentioned activities. Throw in some minor changes to technique and equipment and an archer can really nail all of the above.

By contrast, snap shooting while only burning a hole in the target with one's eye balls or ripping arrows off with no anchor and while flying through the air or running backwards...not so much.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Why instinctive?.......................Because I can!..................It didn't happen overnight, matter of fact it took many hours of shooting many years ago to get it right, and many many hours of shooting to keep it.......Would I have been better off listening to my father who wanted me to shoot gap so I could follow in his footsteps and win many field comps in the 60's?.....Well, probably, it would have been much simpler, and would not have taken so much time.........and I wouldn't have had to sneak the bows out while dad was at work to practice my own way, and I wouldn't have lost my shooting partner the day I handed him his arse on our course...... he never entered another competition and he has never shot with me again, I was 11 and it's been 43 years now since I've shot with my father, I did get a new shooting buddy though, my eldest son Dustin, he was one of my 5, and they all shot too, but 9 years ago he was killed, and the rest just quit shooting, my youngest, Jessica, came back for a while, but quit again a couple years ago when I started getting sick........So, I shoot alone....again.......but I will never ever shoot a field round or spots either, heck I hate shooting indoors........to me archery is meant to be enjoyed outdoors ......with a clear head, not jumbled up with figuring distance and correct gap, or even using sights, shoot might as well pick up a compound if I'm going to do that..........it's been 50 years since I shot my first arrows and I've learned a thing or two along the way, the best instinctive shooters I've ever met rarely shoot competitions, and there's a reason for it, they don't need to prove to others how good they can shoot as they never shoot against others, they shoot against themselves............and something else too.......I get pretty tired of threads like this, belittling instinctive shooting and shooters, calling it one name or another......it is what it is, if you can't do it then don't, I have never belittled anyone on how they choose to shoot, it is a personal choice, and think about this for a second..............No matter how you shoot......or what methods you choose to use.......Where would you be without instinctive shooting and shooters?......if every person who shoots instinctive laid down their bows today, what would happen to archery courses and clubs across the country, and the world?.... Would they remain open?.......Heck they would close up faster than they already are.............So instead of slapping down instinctive shooting and shooters, extend that hand in a gesture of friendship and help them, enjoy the companionship......and maybe, just maybe the really good instinctive shooters will come out and play.........but don't hold your breath, it will take quite a while as the damage has already been done.

MGF.......I live in northern Indiana too......35mi. south of Ft. Wayne............Love to shoot with you sometime.......seems our approach to the same subject are vastly different.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Heck as the OP titled the thread, "Why instinctive?" rather than "Let's bash instinctive archers over the head with a Virtual 2x4...again!", why not focus on how instincts (or even Instinctive Shooting) and shooting using your instincts has or may have helped you in the past/present/future?

;-)


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Oh yea, anyone remember how Ishi said "Go Away!"

;-)


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> Why instinctive?.......................Because I can!..................It didn't happen overnight, matter of fact it took many hours of shooting many years ago to get it right, and many many hours of shooting to keep it.......Would I have been better off listening to my father who wanted me to shoot gap so I could follow in his footsteps and win many field comps in the 60's?.....Well, probably, it would have been much simpler, and would not have taken so much time.........and I wouldn't have had to sneak the bows out while dad was at work to practice my own way, and I wouldn't have lost my shooting partner the day I handed him his arse on our course...... he never entered another competition and he has never shot with me again, I was 11 and it's been 43 years now since I've shot with my father, I did get a new shooting buddy though, my eldest son Dustin, he was one of my 5, and they all shot too, but 9 years ago he was killed, and the rest just quit shooting, my youngest, Jessica, came back for a while, but quit again a couple years ago when I started getting sick........So, I shoot alone....again.......but I will never ever shoot a field round or spots either, heck I hate shooting indoors........to me archery is meant to be enjoyed outdoors ......with a clear head, not jumbled up with figuring distance and correct gap, or even using sights, shoot might as well pick up a compound if I'm going to do that..........it's been 50 years since I shot my first arrows and I've learned a thing or two along the way, the best instinctive shooters I've ever met rarely shoot competitions, and there's a reason for it, they don't need to prove to others how good they can shoot as they never shoot against others, they shoot against themselves............and something else too.......I get pretty tired of threads like this, belittling instinctive shooting and shooters, calling it one name or another......it is what it is, if you can't do it then don't, I have never belittled anyone on how they choose to shoot, it is a personal choice, and think about this for a second..............No matter how you shoot......or what methods you choose to use.......Where would you be without instinctive shooting and shooters?......if every person who shoots instinctive laid down their bows today, what would happen to archery courses and clubs across the country, and the world?.... Would they remain open?.......Heck they would close up faster than they already are.............So instead of slapping down instinctive shooting and shooters, extend that hand in a gesture of friendship and help them, enjoy the companionship......and maybe, just maybe the really good instinctive shooters will come out and play.........but don't hold your breath, it will take quite a while as the damage has already been done.


:thumbs_up

Great post Steve...I know more archers who refrain from participating in forums like this than ones who do over the extreme narrow mindedness and to avoid the type of belittling demonstrated right here...they prefer to stay in touch on FB.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Jinx, That's exactly why I don't post more often than I do here..... or on any other archery forum..........I shoot instinctive with heavy,fast bows.......That's 3 strikes.....maybe I should quit......Naaaaaaaa, I'll just enjoy it with a smile on my face.....


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Wow I'll have to practice that it definitely has hunting applications - you never know when you will need to shoot 5 arrows at a deer while jumping out of a tree stand.




Matt, now that's funny!! Almost as funny as post # 240 by Jinks!!!


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

FUNNY?..........I Don't think it's funny at all............Pretty sad really that archery has come to this............but hey I understand.......... it's always easier to beat the competition before they even get to the course.............just remember, no matter how good you are, or think you are, there is always someone out there who is better.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> Why instinctive?.......................Because I can!..................It didn't happen overnight, matter of fact it took many hours of shooting many years ago to get it right, and many many hours of shooting to keep it.......Would I have been better off listening to my father who wanted me to shoot gap so I could follow in his footsteps and win many field comps in the 60's?.....Well, probably, it would have been much simpler, and would not have taken so much time.........and I wouldn't have had to sneak the bows out while dad was at work to practice my own way, and I wouldn't have lost my shooting partner the day I handed him his arse on our course...... he never entered another competition and he has never shot with me again, I was 11 and it's been 43 years now since I've shot with my father, I did get a new shooting buddy though, my eldest son Dustin, he was one of my 5, and they all shot too, but 9 years ago he was killed, and the rest just quit shooting, my youngest, Jessica, came back for a while, but quit again a couple years ago when I started getting sick........So, I shoot alone....again.......but I will never ever shoot a field round or spots either, heck I hate shooting indoors........to me archery is meant to be enjoyed outdoors ......with a clear head, not jumbled up with figuring distance and correct gap, or even using sights, shoot might as well pick up a compound if I'm going to do that..........it's been 50 years since I shot my first arrows and I've learned a thing or two along the way, the best instinctive shooters I've ever met rarely shoot competitions, and there's a reason for it, they don't need to prove to others how good they can shoot as they never shoot against others, they shoot against themselves............and something else too.......I get pretty tired of threads like this, belittling instinctive shooting and shooters, calling it one name or another......it is what it is, if you can't do it then don't, I have never belittled anyone on how they choose to shoot, it is a personal choice, and think about this for a second..............No matter how you shoot......or what methods you choose to use.......Where would you be without instinctive shooting and shooters?......if every person who shoots instinctive laid down their bows today, what would happen to archery courses and clubs across the country, and the world?.... Would they remain open?.......Heck they would close up faster than they already are.............So instead of slapping down instinctive shooting and shooters, extend that hand in a gesture of friendship and help them, enjoy the companionship......and maybe, just maybe the really good instinctive shooters will come out and play.........but don't hold your breath, it will take quite a while as the damage has already been done.
> 
> MGF.......I live in northern Indiana too......35mi. south of Ft. Wayne............Love to shoot with you sometime.......seems our approach to the same subject are vastly different.


I'd love to shoot some time. I have to get working before I can travel much but I've got a few acres to shoot on here at home and you're welcome anytime. I'm near Winamac north of Logansport.

Our approach may not be as different as you might think. While I do use the arrow, I don't always remember doing it and I just recently started actually measuring gaps trying to get more precise and even use the gaps to tell me something about the effect of form adjustment and so on. I don't "snap shoot" but sometimes, while hunting or target shooting(like milk jugs tossed in the air), I shoot "fast" by not wasting much time at anchor.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

MGF, Getting a group of stick shooters together for the rinehart 100 at Bass and Bucks in Wabash Indiana early august, we'll be camping back near the practice butts....Come Join us..... we have lostsa fun!!!


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> Jinx, That's exactly why I don't post more often than I do here..... or on any other archery forum..........I shoot instinctive with heavy,fast bows.......That's 3 strikes.....maybe I should quit......Naaaaaaaa, I'll just enjoy it with a smile on my face.....


I started with a 55 pound recurve and went up from there. My current stable includes that original 55 pound recurve, a 60 pound longbow and a 65 pound longbow. I started shooting lighter bows a couple of years ago in an attempt to learn some things that I Thought I missed shooting the heavier bows. 

I still have a soft spot in my heart for the heavier bows...maybe I'm still dreaming of hunts for really big stuff that I probably won't ever get to go on. It's just less work to shoot all day with something a little lighter. The bow I shoot the most is 42 pounds and it should be able to kill anything I'm going to get a shot at around here.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> MGF, Getting a group of stick shooters together for the rinehart 100 at Bass and Bucks in Wabash Indiana early august, we'll be camping back near the practice butts....Come Join us..... we have lostsa fun!!!


If I get working I'll try to put that on my calendar.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

voodoofire1 said:


> FUNNY?..........I Don't think it's funny at all............Pretty sad really that archery has come to this


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

It's really only funny to those that have some built up resentment towards a technique or a group of people that use it, ignorance or just an unwillingness to look outside of their box. 

There's far more to archery than just using Classical Target Archery to determine how effective a technique or style can be.

Just because a style or technique doesn't fit a person's G.A.P. profile does NOT mean it doesn't fit someone else's.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

voodoofire1 said:


> Why instinctive?.......................Because I can!..................It didn't happen overnight, matter of fact it took many hours of shooting many years ago to get it right, and many many hours of shooting to keep it.......Would I have been better off listening to my father who wanted me to shoot gap so I could follow in his footsteps and win many field comps in the 60's?.....Well, probably, it would have been much simpler, and would not have taken so much time.........and I wouldn't have had to sneak the bows out while dad was at work to practice my own way, and I wouldn't have lost my shooting partner the day I handed him his arse on our course...... he never entered another competition and he has never shot with me again, I was 11 and it's been 43 years now since I've shot with my father, I did get a new shooting buddy though, my eldest son Dustin, he was one of my 5, and they all shot too, but 9 years ago he was killed, and the rest just quit shooting, my youngest, Jessica, came back for a while, but quit again a couple years ago when I started getting sick........So, I shoot alone....again.......but I will never ever shoot a field round or spots either, heck I hate shooting indoors........to me archery is meant to be enjoyed outdoors ......with a clear head, not jumbled up with figuring distance and correct gap, or even using sights, shoot might as well pick up a compound if I'm going to do that..........it's been 50 years since I shot my first arrows and I've learned a thing or two along the way, the best instinctive shooters I've ever met rarely shoot competitions, and there's a reason for it, they don't need to prove to others how good they can shoot as they never shoot against others, they shoot against themselves............and something else too.......I get pretty tired of threads like this, belittling instinctive shooting and shooters, calling it one name or another......it is what it is, if you can't do it then don't, I have never belittled anyone on how they choose to shoot, it is a personal choice, and think about this for a second..............No matter how you shoot......or what methods you choose to use.......Where would you be without instinctive shooting and shooters?......if every person who shoots instinctive laid down their bows today, what would happen to archery courses and clubs across the country, and the world?.... Would they remain open?.......Heck they would close up faster than they already are.............So instead of slapping down instinctive shooting and shooters, extend that hand in a gesture of friendship and help them, enjoy the companionship......and maybe, just maybe the really good instinctive shooters will come out and play.........but don't hold your breath, it will take quite a while as the damage has already been done.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Jinks, it's illegal to hunt over bait in PA, so I don't. I don't know how relaxed the deer I hunt are compared to others, but the ones I've shot have all been relaxed, with the exception of the first one I killed with an arrow. There are a heck of a lot more people killing deer with compounds than traditional, and they take a lot more time to shoot than even a slow stickbow shooter. I stand by my comment. You don't need to shoot quickly or in an awkward position to kill game. You either have a shot, or you don't.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> You don't need to shoot quickly or in an awkward position to kill game. You either have a shot, or you don't.


Now one is saying you need to...but if a person learns to and masters the abilities to shoot quickly and in awkward positions...they can. Those who don't or can't...shouldn't.

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Great post Steve...I know more archers who refrain from participating in forums like this than ones who do over the extreme narrow mindedness and to avoid the type of belittling demonstrated right here...they prefer to stay in touch on FB.


First of all, I don't really think that recommending an aiming method or a pause at anchor for the masses is all that single minded. That leaves a lot of room for personal touches and method variations. For example, Jimmy Blackmon has a lot of videos posted. I don't think you could watch them and call him single minded.

However...I find that, as an archer who is seriously working to get more accurate and more precise, I like some "single mindedness". I don't find Ray's discussions of G.A.P. or your discussions of the inner peace you find snap shooting in the face of physical and mental infirmities very helpful. On the other hand I find great value in hearing from somebody who can really shoot explain how they do it.

So I might agree with you part way. If somebody really wants to learn to shoot, they may be well served to directly contact some of these guys who can really shoot well and skip all the noise.

Being out of work with the rain keeping me from shooting (I got some in early before the rain), I have the time to mess around on the open forum for "entertainment".


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Now one is saying you need to...but if a person learns to and masters the abilities to shoot quickly and in awkward positions...they can. Those who don't or can't...shouldn't.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Somebody has to start all the "I can't find my deer" threads.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Thinking outside the box has gotten me where I am today......and what's kept me shooting stickbows after my son died....... kinda funny to me that we now think of stickbows as outside the box after they were the box for hundreds of years........I grew up shooting sticks.....and shortly after my father quit, I went to compounds and shot them for 25 years before my neck was broken, and came back to sticks after a 5 year doc imposed hiatus,, but I've noticed a trend in the last 9 years that may not be a good one.......archery, for me has always been enjoyable, but the 25 spent shooting the compound were not as enjoyable as shooting my stickbows.......too much crap, soon as you bought that new gadget it was already obsolete.....and I see the same thing beginning to happen in stickbows.........it's just a stick and a string, but seems many out there spend way too long anal-lyzing it.......and trying to make it easier.....and they do too, but in that they lose something that is very important... and if you don't understand what I'm saying... well then I'll never be able to explain it ti you. archery gives you what you put into it.......... and if you put enough of yourself into IT instead of the gadgets it will be a part of you till your last breath.........Do the work and you'll never be sorry....


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> Somebody has to start all the "I can't find my deer" threads.


And that would be primarily by the people who 'can't or shouldn't' yet still do.

It definitely isn't gonna be by the people who can who start up most of those threads :wink:

The fact is....even the best target archers can still wound deer. A bowhunter learns to master the shots they want to take before they take them on an animal.

Ray :shade:


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

McArchers.........Cliff notes sold here.........


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> Jinks, it's illegal to hunt over bait in PA, so I don't.


Baiting is illegal here too.

So much of the "fair chase" talk is nonsense. Much of my "hunting" is on my own few acres surrounded by crop fields and woodlots that I don't have access to during deer season. I can't chase anything. Then there's the heavily hunted local WMA where the deer don't even act like deer once the hunting starts.

I'd happily toss out a little bit of "bait" to get a deer on my side of the fence if it were legal.

Besides, baiting has to be one of the most traditional hunting methods that there is. This "fair chase" stuff came about with TV hunting and large government bureaucracies making a ton of money off of it.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> McArchers.........Cliff notes sold here.........


You can do that! All the archery greats (and some that maybe aren't so great) wrote and sold their "cliff notes".

Right here on this forum we get free publishing of "cliff notes"...and it's generally worth every penny.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> And that would be primarily by the people who 'can't or shouldn't' yet still do.
> 
> It definitely isn't gonna be by the people who can who start up most of those threads :wink:
> 
> ...


You want to talk hunting again...lets talk about which techniques are really being shown to be the most reliable.

"Master the shots". I used to teach and we used the term "mastery learning". However, we had a fairly specific definition of "mastery".

What the discerning reader might note is that we have some people who say that anything might work for somebody and what feels good to you must be good for you but they usually don't shoot paper or turn in 3-d score cards. We don't know whether they kill game or not.

Then we have others who score well and kill game...but I single minded and mean because they have an opinion. LOL

I know who I'd rather hear from.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Well back on track here a little folks. Here's what happened to me this weekend. Went to a 3D shoot set up by compouders with little regard for trad guys or at least little understanding of trad limitations (pretty typical from what I have seen). This course was set up in 3 different courses of 15 targets each (one had 16). Of those 46 targets there was 1 shot under 20 yards (havalina @ about 18). Plenty of small targets like skunks at 25 yards, etc. Each course had at least 2 targets over 40 to a long of around 50 - average was 30+ yards with lots of targets set in the long 20 to short 30 range. Most of which were set in the trees and had plenty of limbs and 'stuff' in the way and a steel target at the end of each course 'just for fun'. Every target but one had me 'uncomfortable'. In my book that shoot was set on the long to very long side of things and was very difficult. I had a very hard time imagining (or knowing how I used to instictively shoot) having confidence to get around that course. Even with a system and being totally committed to my 'sight picture' and shooting quite well (for me) it was very difficult and I still logged 2 zeros. I know that there are areas where ranges are set up more 'trad friendly' but around here the several local (within 100 miles or so) tend to be like this. So if you want to play, this is what you get. Of the dozen or so trad shooters that were there I'd say that the other 11 were 'instinctive'. I don't know how well they did because only one other guy posted a score.


----------



## meast (Jun 11, 2014)

I shoot instinctive. the reason is I've just never learned another way. i do pretty good out to 30 yards. I haven't killed a deer with a trad bow yet but im looking forward to this coming deer season.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

MGF, I can't write cliff notes on archery..........I would have to fully understand how I shoot, and that escapes me.........I know plenty of other methods and have taught them to hundreds of others when I was in a position to do so many years ago, but now I just shoot and hunt, and choose to give back to archery in other ways.........speaking of hunting, I can't tell you how many squirrels I've shot at 30+ yards in the last few years, but it's been a mess of em, some were running some sitting but all were stone dead when they hit the ground...


----------



## meast (Jun 11, 2014)

One more thing i find instinctive shooting is very relaxing. You focus on one thing and everything else in life is gone. at least for a moment.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

meast said:


> I shoot instinctive. the reason is I've just never learned another way. i do pretty good out to 30 yards. I haven't killed a deer with a trad bow yet but im looking forward to this coming deer season.


From what I gather a lot of top shooters started by shooting "instinctively" but went on to employ other methods in the interest of getting better...(for Ray and Jinks)... at their chosen activities.

I knew a guy who could just pick up a new instrument and play great songs on it. I had to study theory and practice boring scales and stuff in order to "play" much of anything.

In one of his videos Jimmy Blackmon talks about starting archery shooting instinctive. He talks about how some people can just do it and compares it to basketball where there are some who can just throw it through the hoop and others who have to apply more of a method to get it there. I think the video is his channel intro. Go watch it.

Point being a lot of us started out doing the grip-it-and-rip-it thing. Some do ok, some lousy and some just aren't satisfied with it. It's the information available on "form" (certain aspects really do make shooting well easier) and various aiming techniques that helps the less than super talented achieve some measure of success. For some, it helps shove them right to the top.

It's really cool when somebody can just stare down the target, pop the string and split their last arrow that's already exactly in the center of the bull. Unfortunately, most of us can't do that most of the time.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

meast said:


> One more thing i find instinctive shooting is very relaxing. You focus on one thing and everything else in life is gone. at least for a moment.


I've got my own G.A.P. and missing too often is the exact opposite of relaxing. To focus on one thing and then fail only makes me glad "everything else in life" is there. LOL

However, having a plan to improve that consists of more than just doing the same failed things over and hover makes for progress and fun.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

MGF said:


> From what I gather a lot of top shooters started by shooting "instinctively" but went on to employ other methods in the interest of getting better...(for Ray and Jinks)... at their chosen activities.
> 
> I knew a guy who could just pick up a new instrument and play great songs on it. I had to study theory and practice boring scales and stuff in order to "play" much of anything.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

MGF said:


> I've got my own G.A.P. and missing too often is the exact opposite of relaxing. To focus on one thing and then fail only makes me glad "everything else in life" is there. LOL
> 
> However, having a plan to improve that consists of more than just doing the same failed things over and hover makes for progress and fun.


Two in a row. Your on a roll!


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Drawin Deadly said:


> Not sure what you would call it but when I shoot I hold my bow hand out before the shot and focus down the arrow shaft and on the spot I want to hit. I will remain there until I can almost visualize the arrow in flight. Then I draw and release. I will get 4 out of 5 arrows in the kill zone out to 20 yards this way. I have only been doing this for a year and until this summer not very often but now almost daily I will shot from 15-23 yards. I miss plenty but I hit way more than I ever did trying to gap shoot. I get some nice groups too. The biggest cause of my misses is lack of focus. I know it as soon as I get to full draw that I wasn't focused and sure enough I'm pulling my arrow out of my back stop.


Welcome to gap shooting.

Sounds like you were trying to use pick-a-point before, which is a tough technique that has fairly limited applications beyond target archery.

-Grant


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> You want to talk hunting again...lets talk about which techniques are really being shown to be the most reliable.


Most reliable for who? You? Everybody?

Most reliable in what way? Target competition? Bowhunting? Stumping with friends?

You and a few others can continue to belittle an aiming technique and those that use it or you can do more research and ask one of the most well known and successful bowhunters of our time, Barry Wenzel...how well Instinctive Aiming has worked for them bowhunting and being able to shoot moving game or shoot from positions not common with a typical target line.

Ray :shade:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> MGF, I can't write cliff notes on archery..........I would have to fully understand how I shoot, and that escapes me.........I know plenty of other methods and have taught them to hundreds of others when I was in a position to do so many years ago, but now I just shoot and hunt, and choose to give back to archery in other ways.........


That's ok. Some times I'm really happy with how I shoot and think I know what I did to make it happen and then it doesn't. LOL


> speaking of hunting, I can't tell you how many squirrels I've shot at 30+ yards in the last few years, but it's been a mess of em, some were running some sitting but all were stone dead when they hit the ground...


I do a fair amount of squirrel hunting and kill a bunch of squirrels but sometimes I struggle to do that with my scoped squirrel rifle. I miss some and some aren't quite dead when they hit the ground.

A squirrel is a small target and the "vitals" are even smaller. In my experience, you can shoot the chit out of them but they often keep going if you don't hit the vitals. I've shot them through the head but missed the tiny brain and had them keep going. I've harvested squirrels that had half their guts hanging out and healed, presumably, from being shot the year before.

My first bow killed squirrel after I came back to archery a few year back was one that I put two judo point tipped arrows in with a 65 pound bow at 17 paces and it only slowed it down enough that I could catch it. 

I hope that's not too un-sanitized for this forum.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't use "judo's"....... I use a 1/4" wingnut directly behind a target tip........kills em stone dead....... one other thing, I don't eat squirrel......I was shooting them for an elderly fella that loved em, but couldn't anymore hunt due to vision and mobility problems, he passed away 3 years ago, and I haven't shot a squirrel since........I did however have a slight chipmunk problem, tried to use my bow, but those little suckers are amazingly quick, heck they can make it 10 feet before the arrow gets there........they can't outrun a bullet though.....I just bought a new fangled air rifle... holy crap!!....these new ones are amazing!!


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Most reliable for who? You? Everybody?
> 
> Most reliable in what way? Target competition? Bowhunting? Stumping with friends?
> 
> ...


Criminy! is that a word? "Most reliable" means working for the most people in hitting the targets that they shoot at the most. I haven't "belittled" anything! If somebody can just stare at a target and will an arrow to it, that's GREAT! Some say that "if" is a big word though.

It seems to me that I recall reading that Gene Wenzel uses his arrow to aim. Is that incorrect? Maybe it doesn't matter because there are always the rare few who can do amazing things with a minimal amount of practice or preparation. It's great to see but not much help to the rest of us.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> I don't use "judo's"....... I use a 1/4" wingnut directly behind a target tip........kills em stone dead....... one other thing, I don't eat squirrel......I was shooting them for an elderly fella that loved em, but couldn't anymore hunt due to vision and mobility problems, he passed away 3 years ago, and I haven't shot a squirrel since........I did however have a slight chipmunk problem, tried to use my bow, but those little suckers are amazingly quick, heck they can make it 10 feet before the arrow gets there........they can't outrun a bullet though.....


Good heavens! Squirrel is about my favorite meat. Saturday night my wife and I ate the last of the squirrel in the freezer.

I don't use Judo points for hunting anymore either. I kind of like the rubber blunts and they don't get stuck up in a tree either. LOL


----------



## meast (Jun 11, 2014)

I think that's the best point so far. i do really well shooting instinctive. i haven't tried another way because my groups are tight enough to get in the kill zone. if instinctive shooting doesn't work for you there are other ways out there for you to learn. i learned on a solo cam with sights perfected my form with that bow. now i have a 1970 bear super kodiak with no sights. If you can't get in the kill zone shooting gap or instinctive you shouldn't be hunting animals but little red dots with rings around them are fair game for you. what is better? That's up to the individual.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I think what helped me the most was bowfishing as a kid.........it quickly became no challenge to shoot at stationary carp, so we would startle them and shoot them on the run, it took a bit, but my buddy and I became deadly at it and stationary target shooting became very boring.........that's why I prefer 3D, it's not the same target, at the same distance day after day after day...........Now I have my own 3D course over 5 acres that can be shot from an unlimited amount of shooting positions..........another thing that helps is that I bought up a bunch of replacement kill zones for 3D targets and have them hanging in trees back in the woods...........I don't believe you should be awarded points for a wounding shot.......this way there is no choice, hit the section.....dead!


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't really understand that 5 points for a butt shot thing if you really intend to relate it to hunting. I'd rather miss completely and skip a long, possibly unproductive, tracking job.

And yes, just shooting the same target over and over can get boring but sometimes repetition is required for learning. If you can't put every arrow on top of the other , maybe more "practice" would be of value. LOL, so I keep plugging away.

Hey voodoofire, it sounds like you're set up better than I am. I can't get there until I get work. If you come here, you might think about bringing something to shoot at.

I have one 3-d deer. Other than that it's bags of rags and plastic jugs.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

That's no problem MGF, I have some extra inserts that I don't use so I may just bring you up some, but don't invite me if you don't want me to come, heck I use to drive 8 hours one way to shoot with a buddy who was scared to get into a car after being in 18 wrecks.........

I'll make you a deal if your interested......If you'd like to come down to the rinehart 100 and give me a little help getting around the course, you can stay in my motorhome(it's small, but plenty of room for 2 fellas, and I'll pay your shoot fee, and feed ya too..........now I can walk, but it's painful, so I shouldn't need much help at all......oh and I'm not light in the loafers either so no worries there......


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> "Most reliable" means working for the most people in hitting the targets that they shoot at the most.


'Most reliable' can be taken 2 different ways and I see it most importantly as what's 'most reliable' for the individual...because that's what is ultimately the most important. 

No one should care what Joe Blow down the archery range is shooting. The only time it should be of interest is when someone is unhappy with their current ability and they are looking for options to improve.



MGF said:


> I haven't "belittled" anything!


I can't claim one way or the other about you. You ultimately know where your heart is at and whether you're being condescending or belittling.

Implying or claiming that archers aiming Instinctively while snap shooting at moving targets or in awkward positions are responsible for all the threads concerning finding their deer...is belittling, IMO...and is showing prejudice to a specific group of archers who ALL may not share the exact same skills and ethics as the others within that group.



MGF said:


> It seems to me that I recall reading that Gene Wenzel uses his arrow to aim. Is that incorrect?


You are correct...which brings up another important aspect.

Gene and Barry are brothers...yet they both use different techniques and styles...yet BOTH are extremely successful bowhunters.

Gene does use his arrow to aim with and even competes...whereas Barry aims Instinctively and has no desire to compete. Both came from the same parents...yet both have different PERSONALITIES that helped shaped their shooting style and choices in technique.

This is just even more proof that an archer does NOT have to compete or use an aiming technique that has advantages on the shooting line to be successful bowhunting.



MGF said:


> Maybe it doesn't matter because there are always the rare few who can do amazing things with a minimal amount of practice or preparation.


There will always be those few that have a God given gift of superior hand and eye coordination who can pick up a bow with minimal amount of practice or preparation and look like they've been shooting for years...but for many others it takes hard work, commitment, dedication and wisdom/guidance to become great shots....no matter what aiming technique we choose.



MGF said:


> It's great to see but not much help to the rest of us.


That mentality is part of the problem here. Who is 'us'? Everyone that shares the exact same G.A.P. profile as you do? The 'majority'? Or does 'us' include the trick shooters, the horseback archers, Kyudo practitioners, Reinactors, Instinctive shooters or is 'us' just the archers pursuing Classical style of archery?

Ray :shade:


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I use to be a pretty good pitcher, and alternated being a catcher as a teen.....I was asked to join the varsity football team while I was in 8th grade........but I broke one of the fellas during a practice and quit.......he's been in a wheelchair ever since........


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> That's no problem MGF, I have some extra inserts that I don't use so I may just bring you up some, but don't invite me if you don't want me to come, heck I use to drive 8 hours one way to shoot with a buddy who was scared to get into a car after being in 18 wrecks.........


You're really invited. LOL...you're not some serial killer or something, right?


> I'll make you a deal if your interested......If you'd like to come down to the rinehart 100 and give me a little help getting around the course, you can stay in my motorhome(it's small, but plenty of room for 2 fellas, and I'll pay your shoot fee, and feed ya too..........now I can walk, but it's painful, so I shouldn't need much help at all......oh and I'm not light in the loafers either so no worries there......


I'm reasonably strong and healthy for my age so I don't think it's right to take "charity". Assuming that I don't have to work...(I'm working on getting in with a company but I don't yet know what days or shifts I'll have to work if I do get in). If I can get there, I'd be happy to help in any way I can. I just can't commit until I know what this company is going to do. 

I've got more interviews Thursday but they haven't been moving very fast so I just don't know. I first shot them a resume back in February. They e-mailed me some tests around the end of May. Then I did two rounds of tests in their facility the week before last. Now I have interviews scheduled with three (maybe four) people. I don't know if they're going to put me to work seven days/week or if it'll be another two months before I hear from them again. Lets talk off line and see what we can work out.

I wish I could do better.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That mentality is part of the problem here. Who is 'us'? Everyone that shares the exact same G.A.P. profile as you do? The 'majority'? Or does 'us' include the trick shooters, the horseback archers, Kyudo practitioners, Reinactors, Instinctive shooters or is 'us' just the archers pursuing Classical style of archery?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Good point. I should only speak for myself so change "us" to "me". Of course there's a bunch of archers, in this part of the world, doing the same stuff as I do.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

voodoofire1 said:


> I use to be a pretty good pitcher, and alternated being a catcher as a teen.....I was asked to join the varsity football team while I was in 8th grade........but I broke one of the fellas during a practice and quit.......he's been in a wheelchair ever since........


Where did that come from?

Funny story ( maybe not that funny). I wrestled 105 or 112 or whatever (it was a long time ago) in high school. We were at an away match and one of our heavy-weights decided to try a double leg on me at the top of the bleachers. I stepped on his foot which put an end to his immediate plans and his wrestling for the year. I might have stepped kind of hard but that's all I did...I swear!


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> Good point. I should only speak for myself so change "us" to "me". Of course there's a bunch of archers, in this part of the world, doing the same stuff as I do.


:thumbs_up 

Ray :shade:


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

MGF, it was in response to Ray's hand/eye coordination comment in post 278.....

and who's giving charity?.......not me I just asked for a bit of help and in return for that I would compensate you with a weekend of free shooting, and a bit of food..... the motorhome has two beds one for me and the other will be empty, and it's no Hilton, try a 17 1/2' toyota sunrader that has seen it's better days, I've removed about everything you can't either sit on or sleep on........I even removed the joke of a bathroom which is now storage....

and almost forgot.....serial means one after another.. right?..............just kidding...


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Better than Me? You just haven't seen me shoot 


voodoofire1 said:


> FUNNY?..........I Don't think it's funny at all............Pretty sad really that archery has come to this............but hey I understand.......... it's always easier to beat the competition before they even get to the course.............just remember, no matter how good you are, or think you are, there is always someone out there who is better.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

It's always the quiet ones you have to worry about....


----------



## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

"It is shooting a subliminal gap that you acquire over repeated shooting sessions" .. no, that is subliminal gap shooting.

The closest thing to instinctive shooting is hand/eye coordination shooting. Dan Fitzgerald explained it perfectly in a video on youtube and even shot a right handed bow left handed and hit the kill zone on a deer target at 20 yards, no editing. Unfortunately, that video has been taken down.

It is a deadly, simple, adaptive, accurate way to shoot, but not known of very much and talked down as a shooting style by many experts.

I believe Paul Schafer shot this way and hung with Noel Feather in a friendly bow shooting competition out to 60 or 70 yards (10 ring shots). Noel was shooting the latest compound with everything on it, you know what Paul was shooting  He taught himself to shoot that way by shooting at a laser dot in the dark, the hand simply makes the arrow go to where the eye is looking.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Man I must be a pervert or something.... subliminal gap.......reminds me of cameltoe for some reason......


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hank said:


> "It is shooting a subliminal gap that you acquire over repeated shooting sessions" .. no, that is subliminal gap shooting.
> 
> The closest thing to instinctive shooting is hand/eye coordination shooting. Dan Fitzgerald explained it perfectly in a video on youtube and even shot a right handed bow left handed and hit the kill zone on a deer target at 20 yards, no editing. Unfortunately, that video has been taken down.
> 
> ...


You can think what you want but instinctive shooting is doing something over and over again till your arrows go where you are looking 

Your seeing your arrow your just not making a conscious sight picture 

Fitzgerald can hit things with both hands because he has done it enough times that he knows what his subconscious sight picture (gap) is

Anyone that thinks about it knows you are seeing your arrow and hand, its right in front of your face


Last I heard of Noel Feather he got busted shooting a drugged high fence buck and trying to pass it off as a fair chase record book deer


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

To be honest I'm sick of these instinctive/gap threads, it's been going on for months..that's what everyone only talks about now..which has turned me off on this sight


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> To be honest I'm sick of these instinctive/gap threads, it's been going on for months..that's what everyone only talks about now..which has turned me off on this sight


Welcome to the traditional forums  

Some find either word, gap or instinctive a dirty word 

It's all very silly


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

centershot said:


> Well back on track here a little folks. Here's what happened to me this weekend. Went to a 3D shoot set up by compouders with little regard for trad guys or at least little understanding of trad limitations (pretty typical from what I have seen). This course was set up in 3 different courses of 15 targets each (one had 16). Of those 46 targets there was 1 shot under 20 yards (havalina @ about 18). Plenty of small targets like skunks at 25 yards, etc. Each course had at least 2 targets over 40 to a long of around 50 - average was 30+ yards with lots of targets set in the long 20 to short 30 range. Most of which were set in the trees and had plenty of limbs and 'stuff' in the way and a steel target at the end of each course 'just for fun'. Every target but one had me 'uncomfortable'. In my book that shoot was set on the long to very long side of things and was very difficult. I had a very hard time imagining (or knowing how I used to instictively shoot) having confidence to get around that course. Even with a system and being totally committed to my 'sight picture' and shooting quite well (for me) it was very difficult and I still logged 2 zeros. I know that there are areas where ranges are set up more 'trad friendly' but around here the several local (within 100 miles or so) tend to be like this. So if you want to play, this is what you get. Of the dozen or so trad shooters that were there I'd say that the other 11 were 'instinctive'. I don't know how well they did because only one other guy posted a score.


I wouldn't have been able to shoot. I don't own enough arrows. I'm shooting about 12 gpp (it's great for 25 and in) and I haven't even shot this bow at 40 or 50 yards yet. I guess if I picked a point on the moon or something. LOL


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Welcome to the traditional forums
> 
> Some find either word, gap or instinctive a dirty word
> 
> It's all very silly


thing is i could careless of somones form, or the actual meaning of the typical form....this has been my favorite section on archerytalk this past year but the more and more everyone spats on and on about form/instinctive/gap yadda yadda yadda BS the less i come here..im just preparing myself for the fall and shooting at a damn target and doing well....and now could careless how i got it there..and everyone here should as well...

some people are so smart that they forget, the weapon we are using is simplicity at its finest...its just like a golf swing, everyone may have a different back swing but at the point of impact all the good ones are on plane at impact....so theirs no right or wrong way to shoot a bow, and i wish some of these people on here with so much knowledge about the sport would take a step back and realize it doesnt matter how anyone shoots


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

It's tough to put 'air' over their back and shoot with confidence. Around 30 yards my rig really drops off and at 40 a 2 yard misjudge or 1/4" short draw will be a 5 or worse. I do feel that talking about aiming methods is worthy and relevant, especially when the shoot of the day is 'uncomfortable'. Any doubt in my mind was a killer when 'instinctive' shooting - it is still tough shooting gap, but at least I know if I hold the right gap and make a strong shot the arrow will score. I think it (instinctive) can and does work at short range(10-25yds), when the shooter has confidence in the shot and the sight picture is the same - but when things get stretched out I think good consistent form and a sighting system is the way to go. Not to many instinctive field shooters. So after 12 pages of this I have not read anything that makes me want to spend much time revisiting 'instinctive' shooting.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

best way to learn about a shooting method is reading a book other than asking about it on a forum, thats what i did 5 weeks ago..i read ''Advanced Instinctive for bowhunting'' by Fred Asbell, and learned more than i ever have about shooting a recurve bow....

asking on a forum really gets you nowhere in my opinion, the forum does provide info for new beginners on getting the right bow, the right arrows, arrows spine, training methods and ect..but learning aiming methods, and technique that is something you must venture on your own, or the picture will not be clear, because its different with every archer and you are being mislead


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

centershot said:


> It's tough to put 'air' over their back and shoot with confidence. Around 30 yards my rig really drops off and at 40 a 2 yard misjudge or 1/4" short draw will be a 5 or worse. I do feel that talking about aiming methods is worthy and relevant, especially when the shoot of the day is 'uncomfortable'. Any doubt in my mind was a killer when 'instinctive' shooting - it is still tough shooting gap, but at least I know if I hold the right gap and make a strong shot the arrow will score. I think it (instinctive) can and does work at short range(10-25yds), when the shooter has confidence in the shot and the sight picture is the same - but when things get stretched out I think good consistent form and a sighting system is the way to go. Not to many instinctive field shooters. So after 12 pages of this I have not read anything that makes me want to spend much time revisiting 'instinctive' shooting.


I think instinctive's effectiveness depends on a lot on the person. Folks have shot field, well, instinctively. However if a person doesn't have faith in the shot it's not going to go as well.

I think instinctive works best with a very flat shooting set up (where the sight picture remains basically the same). The focus would be on the shot/execution, as I mentioned before, with misses being accepted as purely form flaws.

Of course, if you can't have that sort of mental approach to the shot, it won't work. I know I can't make it work all the time.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Don't forget that is G Freds opinion. Another book that is good reading is "Shooting the Stickbow". It would be interesting to hear what you think of it. And yes I have read G Fred's books.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

kegan said:


> I think instinctive's effectiveness depends on a lot on the person. Folks have shot field, well, instinctively. However if a person doesn't have faith in the shot it's not going to go as well.
> 
> I think instinctive works best with a very flat shooting set up (where the sight picture remains basically the same). The focus would be on the shot/execution, as I mentioned before, with misses being accepted as purely form flaws.
> 
> Of course, if you can't have that sort of mental approach to the shot, it won't work. I know I can't make it work all the time.


Agreed - a familiar shot it worked ok, as soon as that shot has the slightest bit of doubt or pressure to it, look out.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

centershot said:


> Don't forget that is G Freds opinion. Another book that is good reading is "Shooting the Stickbow". It would be interesting to hear what you think of it. And yes I have read G Fred's books.


that was the first archery book ive ever read, i found more insight with the G. Fred book....im not saying it was the best archery book ever made, im saying i found excellent insight with that book i read....thats' where i was getting at..finding info about a archery is reading a book, not the internet


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> thing is i could careless of somones form, or the actual meaning of the typical form....this has been my favorite section on archerytalk this past year but the more and more everyone spats on and on about form/instinctive/gap yadda yadda yadda BS the less i come here..im just preparing myself for the fall and shooting at a damn target and doing well....and now could careless how i got it there..and everyone here should as well...
> 
> some people are so smart that they forget, the weapon we are using is simplicity at its finest...its just like a golf swing, everyone may have a different back swing but at the point of impact all the good ones are on plane at impact....so theirs no right or wrong way to shoot a bow, and i wish some of these people on here with so much knowledge about the sport would take a step back and realize it doesnt matter how anyone shoots


Some of the simplest devices to use are the most complicated in their actual workings. A stick and string is simple but using it well isn't necessarily so simple. Using a simple device often requires a greater level of knowledge or skill on the part of the user.

"right" and "wrong" are subjective but some methods are more capable than others and that can be objectively measured. You're not necessarily "wrong" for using a less capable method but you may very well be less capable.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> best way to learn about a shooting method is reading a book other than asking about it on a forum, thats what i did 5 weeks ago..i read ''Advanced Instinctive for bowhunting'' by Fred Asbell, and learned more than i ever have about shooting a recurve bow....
> 
> asking on a forum really gets you nowhere in my opinion, the forum does provide info for new beginners on getting the right bow, the right arrows, arrows spine, training methods and ect..but learning aiming methods, and technique that is something you must venture on your own, or the picture will not be clear, because its different with every archer and you are being mislead


Not everybody who has something valuable to offer writes a book. Also, when you read a book, there's no interaction where additional questions can be asked of the author.

There's a lot of garbage on the internet but it's done an awful lot to facilitate communication and make real time information available. Using forums covering various topics including blade making, blacksmithing, scuba diving and archery (a few other things too) I've been able to directly interact with some of the very best, literally, from all over the world. Some of that has even led to real world associations, friendships and opportunities. You don't get any of that from a book.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> that was the first archery book ive ever read, i found more insight with the G. Fred book....im not saying it was the best archery book ever made, im saying i found excellent insight with that book i read....thats' where i was getting at..finding info about a archery is reading a book, not the internet


At least you read them both. My experience was just the opposite. I found G. Freds style and mind do not have much in common.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

MGF said:


> Not everybody who has something valuable to offer writes a book. Also, when you read a book, there's no interaction where additional questions can be asked of the author.
> 
> There's a lot of garbage on the internet but it's done an awful lot to facilitate communication and make real time information available. Using forums covering various topics including blade making, blacksmithing, scuba diving and archery (a few other things too) I've been able to directly interact with some of the very best, literally, from all over the world. Some of that has even led to real world associations, friendships and opportunities. You don't get any of that from a book.


like ive stated this whole time, everyone is different.. shaking my damn head


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ghost, there is a TON of great info on the internet...it's like anything else it depends on who it comes from..this forum is no different than any other and for the most part nobody on here would intentionally mislead you.

The problem is there is a few that probably shouldn't be giving advice...when they post stuff I simply scan over it..there are a few on here that I read and study evy single word like MOEBOW..whenever he speaks you need to listen and take it to heart.


Sort thru you eventually will see a trend and learn who to ignore.


Dewayne Martin


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

vabowdog said:


> Ghost, there is a TON of great info on the internet...it's like anything else it depends on who it comes from..this forum is no different than any other and for the most part nobody on here would intentionally mislead you.
> 
> The problem is there is a few that probably shouldn't be giving advice...when they post stuff I simply scan over it..there are a few on here that I read and study evy single word like MOEBOW..whenever he speaks you need to listen and take it to heart.
> 
> ...


yeah their is a ton of info on the internet and this website, ive learned alot via basics on this particular section of archerytalk.com but their is also a ton of nonsense going on


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

The ignore button works wonders for weeding out nonsense.


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> To be honest I'm sick of these instinctive/gap threads, it's been going on for months..that's what everyone only talks about now..which has turned me off on this sight


It seems that there are two small groups of people that will not be satisfied until the other concedes that their "way" of doing things is the awesomest.

The rest of us have a good time doing things by whatever means then have a beer.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Damn True said:


> It seems that there are two small groups of people that will not be satisfied until the other concedes that their "way" of doing things is the awesomest.
> 
> The rest of us have a good time doing things by whatever means then have a beer.


yup, beer, bows, arrows, and targets


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Beer is good. See, we agree about some things.


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"I found that G. Freds style and mind do not have much in common"...........That's classic right there!


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Ghost, there is a TON of great info on the internet...it's like anything else it depends on who it comes from..this forum is no different than any other and for the most part nobody on here would intentionally mislead you.
> 
> The problem is there is a few that probably shouldn't be giving advice...when they post stuff I simply scan over it..there are a few on here that I read and study evy single word like MOEBOW..whenever he speaks you need to listen and take it to heart.
> 
> ...




I mean absolutely no disrespect to Moeboe nor anyone else with this post but, there are some subliminal messages buried in your post that I could not let pass.
Yes, for you and anyone else who fits the same GAP profile, it would definitely be a good idea to take his advice and follow it. BUT, the fact is that there are others, myself included, who may not have much use for his methods. It amazes me how some people just find it so hard to understand such a simple fact.
I think you really mean well but, at the same time you are contributing to the problem by telling people, in a round about way, that there's one best way to shoot a bow. 
You may have me on ignore because I happen to disagree with you but, in my opinion, that's your loss. I am open minded enough to gain something from all the posts so I don't use the ignore button. If a topic bothered me so much I might not read the thread but, for the most part, I get something out of every post even if it's just a laugh.
It is my opinion that most of us actually combine several different shooting methods. We may not be aware that we are doing so and not recognize it. Some of us probably use variations of the combination for different shooting methods. As Gary said in a previous post, each shot lends itself to a different method. I think most of us do that to some degree whether we are consciously thinking about it or not.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

voodoofire1 said:


> "I found that G. Freds style and mind do not have much in common"...........That's classic right there!


LOL, I thought the same thing, even if it was a simple typo.


----------



## Trigun (Mar 27, 2005)

Good topic!! my 12 years old girl shoot gap and out shoot me because I shoot instintively. For three years I didn't improve much but I truly enjoy to way it goes. yes for accuracy, it is not the best choice IMO. But archery is more than just the bull's eye.

Edmond


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, I thought the same thing, even if it was a simple typo.


oops - what a difference a 'd' or 'e' can make to a statement! That's what happens when I type instinctively.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Trigun said:


> Good topic!! my 12 years old girl shoot gap and out shoot me because I shoot instintively. For three years I didn't improve much but I truly enjoy to way it goes. yes for accuracy, it is not the best choice IMO. But archery is more than just the bull's eye.
> 
> Edmond



I like your post because it generates some thought as to topics which are hammered regularly.

First, accuracy. It depends on the circumstances as to whether the instinctive method is more or less accurate than others.
Second, to some people there IS more to archery than the bullseye. To others, the bullseye is everything.
Third, is the possibility that she is just better at archery than you no matter the method. 

And lastly, I have a tip for you. If you put some effort into learning her method it's very likely that in a short time the two will start working together in your favor. There are several different names for it but, no matter what you call it, your brain has an amazing ability to connect the dots. Paying attention to the gap but not totally focusing on it can have a beneficial side effect.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Paying attention to the gap but not totally focusing on it...


Now that sounds a lot like what I do. Now what shall we call it?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> Now that sounds a lot like what I do. Now what shall we call it?


You can call it Gap. You can call it Split Vision. You can call it Indirect Aiming. You can call it Gapstinctive...but don't call it Instinctive :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

I call it putting an arrow in a bullseye, nothing more, nothing less


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

centershot said:


> Now that sounds a lot like what I do. Now what shall we call it?



Call it whatcha want! I think it's possible that almost everyone does it to some extent at some point. Some say instinctive and some say gap but, the two probably converge. I know that for me on shorter shots I don't look for or pay any attention to the arrow. Is it in the general sight picture? Most likely so. On longer, closer to point on shots, I do see it. 
There was a time when all arrows were too short for me so the point on distance was extreme. I've since modified my anchor point and now see what others have been seeing all along. 
That changed lots of things about my shooting style but, oh well, as long as it works I'm good.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> I call it putting an arrow in a bullseye, nothing more, nothing less



Never seen a deer with a bullseye but, whatever floats yer boat.:wink:


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I mean absolutely no disrespect to Moeboe nor anyone else with this post but, there are some subliminal messages buried in your post that I could not let pass.
> Yes, for you and anyone else who fits the same GAP profile, it would definitely be a good idea to take his advice and follow it. BUT, the fact is that there are others, myself included, who may not have much use for his methods. It amazes me how some people just find it so hard to understand such a simple fact.
> I think you really mean well but, at the same time you are contributing to the problem by telling people, in a round about way, that there's one best way to shoot a bow.
> You may have me on ignore because I happen to disagree with you but, in my opinion, that's your loss. I am open minded enough to gain something from all the posts so I don't use the ignore button. If a topic bothered me so much I might not read the thread but, for the most part, I get something out of every post even if it's just a laugh.
> It is my opinion that most of us actually combine several different shooting methods. We may not be aware that we are doing so and not recognize it. Some of us probably use variations of the combination for different shooting methods. As Gary said in a previous post, each shot lends itself to a different method. I think most of us do that to some degree whether we are consciously thinking about it or not.





Forest, yes you are exactly right there is some messages in my post as are in all posts...there are people on here that don't hunt and have no reason to post on those hunting threads..you will NEVER see me posting in a thread where someone is wanting to learn about string walking..im clueless...I know that and don't post....im a hunter and a target archer and IM very open minded about shooting styles and techniques Ive shot split vision still do from time to time Ive shot instincetive at the really close shots I still do..for the most part im a gapper and yes I TOTALLY understand everyone GAP profile is different not that its wrong but simply that its different...I enjoy just slinging arrows with buddies of mine and I also enjoy competition archery.
It seems like here lately every other post is bashing target archers and how closed minded they are....last time I checked we all shoot targets if your shooting a bow you have a target...Ive never once ridiculed another archer for shooting anyway he or she wants..Ive give my opinion when asked about accuracy and for ME theres only one way that I have found for ME to achieve the accuracy that I Desire.

Someone was blasting this site that the only way to get good advice was to read a book...I was simply defending the site...Sorry if I offended anyone.




Dewayne Martin


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Never seen a deer with a bullseye but, whatever floats yer boat.:wink:


yeah i actually dont shoot targets with bullseye and circular targets....i shoot mainly 3d targets  it was more of a statement


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Throughout history and while studying different cultures...archery can show different styles and techniques that were considered very effective and when you consider that knowing how to use the bow and arrow effectively could mean life or death for someone...it's kinda silly to completely right these styles and techniques off just because someone doesn't share the same GOALS as someone else.

Here are just a few examples of successful archers using different styles and techniques that obviously fulfilled their GOALS. If they hadn't these style and techniques would most likely never had existed.

Ray :shade:


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

BLACKWOLF, those are some great pics, thanx.

Another possible reason for Instinctive Shooting is variation in form and Sight Pic to avoid repeatative stress? I rode a bike (especially prior to front shocks) with various hand positions, seated, standing,etc. May not apply to some for Archery.

If I could not keep my nose clean, I might change my anchor for example.

A thousand or more years ago, one might have been injured, yet had to go hunting.


----------



## Damn True (May 22, 2014)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Never seen a deer with a bullseye but, whatever floats yer boat.:wink:


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Damn True said:


> View attachment 1983656


Far side, you have to love it.
I shot a good size elk a few years back that had a dirt spot. I was focusing so hard and that spot that I hit it and I was using a compound with sights and it must of been the 50 yard pin because she was 47 yards.
Dan


----------



## Pixel (Sep 19, 2019)

There's a certain freedom in not having a sight to worry about. A lot of people say it takes more skill, and it does, but what I like about it is that I don't feel like I'm obligated to always have every shot be exactly right. If I get a bad shot I can kind of forgive myself because it is traditional


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

When I stated shooting in 1963 I was not aware of anything other than instinctive shooting and now I don't care to know any other way.


----------



## HawkeyeII (Sep 19, 2019)

I compare instinctive shooting to throwing a baseball or rock some people can throw a baseball accurate some people cannot. It's not for everyone


----------



## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

centershot said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want to shoot instinctively. If we take 'trick shooting' or 'novelty shooting' or maybe 'running shots' out of the equation then the results from 3D's (hunting practice?) and indoors (pure accuracy) and field (long range accuracy) they point to a more accurate and consistent method(s) of 'aiming' a non sighted recurve. So that brings me to the question, If there is a more accurate, more consistent way, then why spend time on a less accurate, less consistent method? What do you think?


Ultimately there is no such thing as instinctive shooting. Those who claim to shoot instinct and there are a lot of them quite literally stink. Accurate shooting without a hard sighting device is the result of many weeks of practice. (Notice the metric "weeks" , months or years can easily be substituted not hours or days.) For people who enjoy shooting as much or more than I do we simply do not mind putting in the time it takes to shoot accurately. We are creating a sight picture which we hope to repeat again and again. Aiming is just one step in the shot cycle and a relatively easy step comparatively.


----------



## triumph (Dec 24, 2009)

HawkeyeII said:


> I compare instinctive shooting to throwing a baseball or rock some people can throw a baseball accurate some people cannot. It's not for everyone


Thank you this really sums it up.
Some can do it some can”t
And I am sure we are not finished with this topic


----------



## Nucleus (Aug 30, 2016)

Barry Wensel once said that if under pressure you end up shooting instinctively anyway you might as well practice that way. In other words if in a hunting situation you forget or get confused on which pin what distance or you’re thinking shot sequence etc and you just fling an arrow, then practice just looking at the spot you want to hit and hunt that way. Of course some people are just way better at it than others just like any other sport or activity.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Why is it that many archers that don't shoot instinctively seem to harbor something akin to resentment towards those who do? I don't know any instinctive archers who feel that way about archers that use sights or some other aiming method. I am impressed with any form of archery from Olympic style to shooting barebow from bareback. I just prefer things as simple as possible.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

penumbra said:


> Why is it that many archers that don't shoot instinctively seem to harbor something akin to resentment towards those who do? I don't know any instinctive archers who feel that way about archers that use sights or some other aiming method.


Plenty of places online where the instinctive shooters are the ones talking the most trash with a "holier than thou" attitude towards anyone who aims. 

People get passionate about their hobbies.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

kegan said:


> Plenty of places online where the instinctive shooters are the ones talking the most trash with a "holier than thou" attitude towards anyone who aims.
> 
> People get passionate about their hobbies.


I wasn't aware of that. My only experiences are here and Trad Talk. The general consensus on this site in particular is that if you are saying you are an instinctive archer then you are either deluded or foolish.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think that a lot of the people on this forum are pretty technically-minded, and a lot of the time things get bogged down in semantics. 'Instinctive' doesn't have an official definition, and often things devolve into arguments over who is really doing what, and how well that really works. I have found it better to simply listen to what people are saying, offer perspective if they seem open to it, and otherwise just understand what _they_ mean when they say it.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

When you beat a person who thinks they are a good shot, badly, on their home range, then you see how much trash gets thrown by the instinctive guys.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

grantmac said:


> When you beat a person who thinks they are a good shot, badly, on their home range, then you see how much trash gets thrown by the instinctive guys.


That may be but I don't try to beat anyone. I try to beat my last shot.


----------



## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

grantmac said:


> When you beat a person who thinks they are a good shot, badly, on their home range, then you see how much trash gets thrown by the instinctive guys.


"You beat me because you aimed at the target!"



Pixel said:


> There's a certain freedom in not having a sight to worry about. A lot of people say it takes more skill, and it does, but what I like about it is that I don't feel like I'm obligated to always have every shot be exactly right. If I get a bad shot I can kind of forgive myself because it is traditional


Good job necro-ing a 5 year old post.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

penumbra said:


> That may be but I don't try to beat anyone. I try to beat my last shot.


That's a great way to keep the bar super low and I suppose if relaxation is why you shoot then it's fine.

Again for some people accuracy is a priority and for others it's not, the two groups are usually divided by technique.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Gents, I've never met someone saying "You beat me because you aimed" or making harsh remarks on a 3D course. Maybe the air in some regions is deprived of sportsmanship or everything comes down to the lack of education, but promoting it as a trait of an archer using a specific aiming method is ridiculous or plain stupid.


----------



## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

I tend to agree with grantmac here....If all you want out of archery is relaxation, then sure, shoot however you like.

But without proper form and way to align that form to the target, every shoot is a crapshoot. You may hit what you're looking at, or you may not.

A lot of archers will find ways to explain why they missed what they are shooting at.... "I shoot instinctive" is one I heard more often on the range I go to.

To each their own.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

grantmac said:


> That's a great way to keep the bar super low and I suppose if relaxation is why you shoot then it's fine.
> 
> Again for some people accuracy is a priority and for others it's not, the two groups are usually divided by technique.


This view is exactly what I was expecting and precisely my point. Only I know where my bar is set or if its set at all. I have been an archer since 1963 so it is not new to me.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Boomer2094 said:


> I tend to agree with grantmac here....If all you want out of archery is relaxation, then sure, shoot however you like.
> 
> But without proper form and way to align that form to the target, every shoot is a crapshoot. You may hit what you're looking at, or you may not.
> 
> ...


This statement is not even close to correct. Don't assume an instinctive archer does not have proper form or that they are not aligned with the target just because you don't grasp it. This post reinforces my opening comment.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I see lots of guys like you and the bar is set very low, which is fine if accuracy isn't important.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Draven Olary said:


> Gents, I've never met someone saying "You beat me because you aimed" or making harsh remarks on a 3D course. Maybe the air in some regions is deprived of sportsmanship or everything comes down to the lack of education, but promoting it as a trait of an archer using a specific aiming method is ridiculous or plain stupid.


I've gotten it in person and online several times. Embarrass someone who thinks they can shoot and you'll see them come up with every excuse for why you're cheating.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

grantmac said:


> I see lots of guys like you and the bar is set very low, which is fine if accuracy isn't important.


You have proved my point very well. You attack my methods and my skills through a pretense that your way is the right way. You know nothing about me but you are entitled to your arrogant response. 
I will not re post. I was looking for some honest opinions, not good old boy dogma. This post now has the stink of politics. I regret having made a sincere inquiry. 
But then you "see lots of guys like" me, don't you? Did you even consider what you were saying and how it would be perceived? Of course you didn't.


----------



## as.ks.ak (Aug 13, 2016)

I came to this forum looking to gain some knowledge from archers with the experience and wisdom that far out number the arrows I haven’t even thought about flinging yet. 

Instead, it seems all I continue to find is arrogant egotistical chest beaters. It’s sad to me that some of you people act the way you do, for the love of God we’re all shooting a stick and string. Aren’t we on the same side? 

I sure hope some of you have got a spotter when you go to get down off that high horse. Yes, grantmac, I’m talking to you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to shoot if all you are after is enjoyment, but I do believe there are more and less accurate ways to shoot if ultimate accuracy in a tournament is important. I am a tournament shooter so accuracy is my goal. Yes I shoot all the different techniques during a tournament since we will shoot from 2-1/2 yards to over 100 yards on a novelty round and 10 yards to 80 yards on a NFAA field round . Barebow you get your accuracy from string walking , in Trad recurve class you use a gap as well as references on the riser. I have shot my gap for so long I don't have to think about it so it also transfers into hunting and unmarked 3D tournaments. I know that on an unmarked distance that 15 to 25 yards looks almost the same. The gap won't change 1/8 of an inch so I am very accurate at these distances. All the other gaps are there as well. It is all in the sight picture as you aim. 
As an example anything from 1 to 12 yards is pretty much an instinctive shot, basically the sight picture is solid probably shot 10,000 arrows at these distances alone. There are a couple of ways to shoot these if you are not solid on the gap. One way is to put the tip of the arrow on the spot and look at the front shelf and move down to that imaginary spot. For me this works from 6 to 10 yards From 12 to 43 it is a gap in the riser. 44 is point on. Then there are reference points available from there to 100 yards. As an example. Middle of the cushion plunger is 55 yards, top of the button is 53 and bottom of the button is 58. The front of the shelf is 70 yards. For 90 I stack the front of the shelf to arrow point. So am I cheating. No, my bow passes inspection every time but I am taking advantage of everything available to shoot top level scores.... It may not be for you but for me it is how I enjoy shooting.


----------



## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

TradArcher77 said:


> Because


Because it is not a casual way to shoot. I don't enjoy just shooting arrows to see them land somewhere near the target I strive to shoot spots, that is what I enjoy. It takes lots of hours and lots of practice to shoot this type of technique. Lots of work getting the arrow tuned to the bow but also getting the complete setup shooting the gap and point on that you want. I want no more than a 1-1/8 inch gap at the closer targets a 44 yard point on and the back of the shelf on the spot at 80 yards. Also because I like the technical aspect of shooting accurately at longer distances and shooting the highest score that I can. Shooting a 450+ on the NFAA field round for me would be like a hunter getting a 30 inch buck. As far as the , "it may not be for you" statement. A lot of people really don't care about accuracy past 30 yards . It is their comfort zone and most likely their preferred hunting distances so putting in the time to be accurate out to 100 yards does not appeal to them. Like I said there is no right or wrong way to shoot but if you want the highest possible accuracy , you will have an aiming system. Again just my thoughts.


----------



## Dnomyar604 (Jul 7, 2019)

I just find it enjoyable. But aiming doesn't hurt.


----------



## Plandolfi (Jan 30, 2019)

I switched from compound to trad 3 years ago. I started by learning my point on with my arrow. from there I learned my gaps and over time that has proved very beneficial to me 1) because now I don't really think about what I am doing anymore my body knows what to do (2) If I am not sure I still have a reference point to go back to. It is not really instinctive but it is not really gap shooting either anymore. Read Byron Ferguson's become the arrow (short but good read) and watch Masters of Barebow.


----------



## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

penumbra,

Do you realize that you're the one that's assuming? Did I said anywhere in my post that all "instinctive shooter" doesn't have proper form? Did you assume that I was bashing the "instinctive" shooters and their ways? Did I touch a sensitive nerve or something?

What part did I said in my post that isn't correct? 

Shooting bows is NOT instinctive, it is a learned process. All the great instinctive shooters I have met have been shooting for decades, and they fine tune their form and ways to align that form to their target with years and years of practice. Again, they can do it because they have practiced at it for YEARS! I have NEVER seen someone that never shot a bow in their life picking up a bow and just hit what they are shooting at with it, because they have not yet learned the process yet. 

I believe Intuitive Shooting would better describe what those shooter do, but it's all semantics. We can argue about the words used, but let's face it, Archery in ANY form is a process that must be learned. 

Not bashing Archers in any way, because to each their own.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Boomer2094 said:


> penumbra,
> 
> Do you realize that you're the one that's assuming? Did I said anywhere in my post that all "instinctive shooter" doesn't have proper form? Did you assume that I was bashing the "instinctive" shooters and their ways? Did I touch a sensitive nerve or something?
> 
> ...


You are correct and I did make that assumption. I make no excuses and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. The way it was structured and following the derogatory marks of someone else, I did make this false assumption. I have been found wanting. 
About the other, I read an article, but cannot put my hands on it, that did describe archery as an instinctive action like throwing a rock. I am not saying it is true or that it is not true, but I absolutely believed it when I was a child and later when I started archery at 13. At my core I still believe it. I wish I knew where I read it, it might have been here, but I don't always retain things as well as I would like.


----------



## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

No hard feelings, I understand how it can be misconstrued as derogatory, But the truth must be told, however painful it may be for some.

Let's take the example you gave , comparing archery as an instinctive action like throwing a rock.

Yes, throwing a rock is an instinctive action, you do not need to have a lesson on how to throw rocks.... but, to throw a rock and hit something accurately every time? now that require practice. Try it, try to throw a rock, any numbers of rock, at something that's 10 yards away, and see how many times you hit it. Or better yet, have your kid or grandkid try it and see how many time they hit it compared to you.

Now, you'll most likely see that you, an adult, will hit that something with the rock you throw, more often than a kid. why is that? isn't throwing a rock an instinctive action, that you are supposed to be born with? why can't a kid hit as many times as you? 

Archery is the same way.

You have been shooting bows since you were 13, you have years of shooting under your belt, I have no doubt that you can hit what you see more often than not... because you have done this for a while.

But for someone who is obviously new, who bought the cheapest bow and arrow cause they don't want to spend any more than 200 bucks, who couldn't hit the paper on a 60cm FITA target, that refused your attempt to help them because "I shoot instinctive"....

I hope you see where i am coming from, I love helping people, but you can only do so much before you realize that internet forum and youtube are misguiding them...


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

No pain implied or noted. I cannot agree with your analogy about a child verses and adult throwing a rock, no matter that it seems very logical. In fact I will concede that your statement to this regard may be much more appropriate today then it was when I was a child. Think about it in a more general way and set the rock throwing and the archery aside for a moment. Painting, sculpting, writing, singing are all things that some have more of an instinctual nature for than others. How does a six year old with no musical background compose a symphony? There are no true answers here, only suppositions. 
In any regard, I am perfectly fine with anyone using any equipment and methods they feel they need or want to further a goal. I am also aware that it is probably the best way for a new archer to advance. It is just not for me and I have the full knowledge that there are many who practice these aiming methods that shoot a far sight better than I do. I know you did not say it, but I do not like to be thought of as one of "those people who set the bar very low". 
When I was 13 I was given a bow for Christmas. I was given no instruction but I figured it out. I shot almost every day after school on my own for the next three years. Then I discovered that girls could be a lot more exciting than arrows. I took a lot of time off archery but every time I came back it felt natural. It felt instinctive. I am 70 now and I do a bit of shooting almost every day. From a collection of about 100 bows I am down to about 20 something and even though they are quite a diverse group of bows, I can switch pretty freely among them at will and shoot carbon, bamboo, wood or aluminum arrows with similar effect. Cock feather in or out, I don't care. Off the shelf or rest, I don't care. I don't care if my shelf is cut halfway through riser. I have English Longbows and Selfbows without shelves, I don't care. I am not criticizing all the methods and contrivances available and they are today probably the best bet for most new archers. But for me, I can't seem to find myself caring. 
I do indeed see "where you are coming from" and that you want to help others in spite of internet forums and youtube. About this, I do care.


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

Instinctive shooting is incredibly liberating...not having to depend on a system or device or shooting method, and having your arrow go where you intended.
Think about it; when you throw a baseball, football, basketball three-pointer or darts, do you aim? Do you gap, or use a sight? No, but nevertheless, those who practice religiously can sock 'em right in the corner pocket with alarming consistency. And certainly, shots at rapid moving targets don't allow 'taking a bead' on the game or target, it's purely instinctive. Watch Jeff Kavanaugh shoot on YouTube and that's what it's all about.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

CaptainKirk, for the sake of the discussion it should be clarified that Jeff K. is an EXCEPTIONAL archer, not your average instinctive shooter. I've met very, very few instinctive arcehrs who could shoot as well as him in person.

Likewise, to say that the level of fluid accuracy on game or moving targets "doesn't allow you to take a bead" is hogwash. None of those feats are made any more difficult by aiming the arrow and Howard Hill made that abundantely clear through his films and exhibitions. Even in his book "Hunting the Hard Way" Hill elaborates on how aiming is more useful, particularly in the field, than the purely instinctive method. His "split vision" is just another version of gap shooting before the generic umbrella term became so commonplace as today.

If something works for an archer that's fantastic, but there are multitudes of different methods used by many, many archers throughout history. Aiming is simple, easy, ancient... and an option for those inclined to do it.


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

kegan said:


> CaptainKirk, for the sake of the discussion it should be clarified that Jeff K. is an EXCEPTIONAL archer, not your average instinctive shooter. I've met very, very few instinctive arcehrs who could shoot as well as him in person.


No argument there, Kegan



kegan said:


> Likewise, to say that the level of fluid accuracy on game or moving targets "doesn't allow you to take a bead" is hogwash. None of those feats are made any more difficult by aiming the arrow and Howard Hill made that abundantely clear through his films and exhibitions. Even in his book "Hunting the Hard Way" Hill elaborates on how aiming is more useful, particularly in the field, than the purely instinctive method. His "split vision" is just another version of gap shooting before the generic umbrella term became so commonplace as today.


Nevertheless, 'aiming', in general, denotes taking the time to 'pick a spot', draw, anchor and release. You may be doing this in one fluid motion as Hill, Kavanaugh and Barry Wensel have shown, but not many can do it (myself included) without shooting behind the target.



kegan said:


> If something works for an archer that's fantastic, but there are multitudes of different methods used by many, many archers throughout history. Aiming is simple, easy, ancient... and an option for those inclined to do it.


Kegan, I'm certainly not bashing aiming, sights, or aiming systems in any way, shape or form. It's whatever works for the person in question, not for others. But the OP asked, so...
However, as a former gapper and sight shooter, I found it tedious and aggravating to be constantly thinking about gap, distance, stringwalking and other variables that are in constant flux anyway in a hunting scenario, unlike at the 3D range or target circuit, where an eighth of an inch can mean the difference between win and lose, and far more satisfying to be able to judge on the fly where my maximum shooting distance should be, and have the confidence to sock it in there without all the mental gyrations. That's all. It's not the only answer and might not be the right one for the OP or anyone else for that matter, but it works for me. That's all I'm sayin'...


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Captain, apologies if my post came across as argumenetitive. We are certainly more in agreement than not. The reference to Mr. Kavanaugh's ability was something recently "abused" on some Facebook archery pages, and simply something I wanted to clarify upon. Just as instinctive doesn't make an archer into a Kavanaugh, obviously gap wouldn't make the average archer into a Hill or Demmer either.


----------



## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

I don't use a sight on my bow, so I just estimate the vertical angle when shooting up to 30 yards. But for 40 to 55 yards, I am able to use the tip of the arrow as a reference. Can I be considered "instinctive" shooter for those 30 yards and under?


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

kegan said:


> Captain, apologies if my post came across as argumenetitive. We are certainly more in agreement than not. The reference to Mr. Kavanaugh's ability was something recently "abused" on some Facebook archery pages, and simply something I wanted to clarify upon. Just as instinctive doesn't make an archer into a Kavanaugh, obviously gap wouldn't make the average archer into a Hill or Demmer either.


Not at all, Kegan. I know where you're coming from and appreciate you pointing out the fact that not everybody is going to be able to do what these guys do no matter how much they practice or how long they've been at it. They have a gift, an ability, that not all of us have been blessed with.
I will say that I actually shot better when I gapped...but it was bringing more mental clutter into the game, which is why I wanted to get away from the compound scene to begin with. Too much 'junk'.


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

lameduck said:


> I don't use a sight on my bow, so I just estimate the vertical angle when shooting up to 30 yards. But for 40 to 55 yards, I am able to use the tip of the arrow as a reference. Can I be considered "instinctive" shooter for those 30 yards and under?


I'm not sure what the official definition of 'instinctive' relative to archery is, but my own definition is to completely block out the bow and/or arrow sight reference and concentrate completely on the intended target. By that definition, if you are accomplishing that end, I'd say, yes...you are shooting instinctive. But that's just me. Others' opinions may vary.


----------



## TRADDART (Sep 30, 2019)

I'm new here, never knew instinctive archer was a thing until now. So my 2 cents, OK?

Because it's challenging. Obviously aiming, especially in competition is equally challenging, in a different way.

Handgun analogy: back in the day I had a .22 revolver, made up a game where I'd set up a bunch of tin cans about 6 ft apart and walk back about 30 feet. I'd shoot from the hip, fast, all 8 shots in about five seconds. Usually I'd hit most of the cans. Sure I could aim and hit every can - anybody could from that distance but my game was more fun. Now I have a new game, I throw an empty beer can as far as I can and try to keep it bouncing away, shooting from the hip. Eventually I start missing, so I start aiming instead. Eventually what's left of the can is too far away to hit so I throw out a new one.
Kyudo analogy: When I built my first bow, a bamboo/fiberglass composite recurve, aiming or holding an anchor point for even a half second was out of the question. It was probably about 60 lb at 22" draw so all I could do was nock an arrow and let it fly. Eventually I started hitting what I wanted to. More or less. The arrow would go right through a bale of hay and keep going. So how is that like Kyudo? It isn't. 
I suspect that a beginner who studies how to aim and practices will start hitting bullseyes much faster than a beginner practicing "instinctive". But after many years of diligent practice the abilities of archers using different methods may converge. Also, I expect that after much practice, technical aiming methods will also become instinctive to archers using them.
Baseball analogy: The pitchers on both teams that make it to World Series are the best of the best. Notice how relaxed they are. Even when they're behind in the count with runners on base they look like they're just watching clouds go by. Maybe that's Kyudo.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Well done Traddart. Very clear and honest.


----------



## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Man I'm so confused. . . . 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bow Rider (Jan 16, 2015)

I still have to aim when shooting a stickbow with no sight. I just don't shoot it enough to be instinctive. 

My compound with a peep sight and scope, I don't even think about aiming. I just burn a hole in the X, and it happens. Mostly because I do that a lot. It's become "instinctive."


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

TRADDART said:


> I'm new here, never knew instinctive archer was a thing until now. So my 2 cents, OK?
> 
> Because it's challenging. Obviously aiming, especially in competition is equally challenging, in a different way.
> 
> ...


My experience is that after 6 months of regular practice the aimer will be at a level the instinctive guy doesn't ever reach.


----------



## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

grantmac said:


> My experience is that after 6 months of regular practice the aimer will be at a level the instinctive guy doesn't ever reach.


Experiences vary Thankfully we are not all the same and share the same experiences in the same ways.


----------

