# Traditional Archery??



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I shoot mine to prepare for war.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I just believe 'some' people need to understand and acknowledge that people have different goals, abilities and personalities which is EXACTLY why there are sooo many different forms and techniques related to archery.

I love having both mindsets here.

Ray :shade:


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## AddicTioN (Nov 19, 2012)

i shoot my compound to hunt..and when my omega longbow arrives i will also be shooting to hunt!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

You bored Ken??

Matt


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

It's too cold for fishing


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## AddicTioN (Nov 19, 2012)

^^^ trout waters r perfect right now!


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## woodpecker1 (Sep 6, 2012)

touchy subject.i believe there might be person or two on here that dosnt hunt.however,birds of a feather flock together,and when hunting season is out ,and the hunter is outback shooting his target he may wonder what other archers are doing. are they keeping score to share online with a friend they met on site that lives 8 states away.i actually have a friend who is a vegan but really likes to shoot at a 3d buck on the side of his house. a simple longbow or one with ilf limbs and a plunger and all that stuff , is still be pulled back and released with a human hand. so if one takes count of the many bullseyes he hits on a target or the other keeps tabs of howmany kill he or she made through the lungs isnt the end result the same?could someone ask are you going to be in awar after you hunt? if not are you just half a trad shooter?since wars arnt really battled withbows anymore? i am a bowyer. a hunter and target shooter. while i like hearing stories of the saskatchawan bear hunts i also ike o how a target shooter would like to try his first time at a great white tail deer hunt .he may be influenced from us hunters and us hunters may want to learn how to score in targets we are stickbow shooters we are birds of a feather who flock together 
/


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

But 3-D and stump shooting are a form of target archery but most who pursue them do so to practice hunting. Sort of like skeet, trap and sporting clays shooters.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

AddicTioN said:


> ^^^ trout waters r perfect right now!


I'm a long way from Livingston MT. where I used to live..thanks for the reminder of what I'm missing.


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## AddicTioN (Nov 19, 2012)

Mo0se said:


> I'm a long way from Livingston MT. where I used to live..thanks for the reminder of what I'm missing.


Haha I'm very sorry I had to put those beautiful images of the clear cold rushing water and the 18inch rainbow hooked on the upper jaw by a #15 cattis hair fly..alright now I'm just having fun LOL


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I just believe 'some' people need to understand and acknowledge that people have different goals, abilities and
> personalities which is EXACTLY why there are sooo many different forms and techniques related to archery.
> 
> I love having both mindsets here.
> ...



I agree with you Ray, But I doubt we will change his mind..LOL


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I would guess that shortly after the first primitive human developed a way to launch a short spear from a stick and string they also discovered that the key to effectively using this new weapon was practice. That said practice was enjoyable would also stand to reason. Might it be that some tribe members enjoyed shooting bows but did not take part in hunting or war...who knows. Makes one wonder on what form of wagers were entered into by our primitive ancestors, you know there were some...lol.

I certainly don't think you are wrong in your thinking, the bow was obviously developed as a way to increase the effective range of primitive weapons, whether they were used on neighbors, game, or protection from predators. Pure target archery is a relatively recent development simply because it's only been in recent human history have we had the time to pursue such things.

Where I disagree, is that "pure" target archers, or those that have no interest or desire to hunt should be somewhere else. I think one of the greatest strengths of this forum is the multi-disciplinary aspect of the members. I can go to Trad Gang or the Leatherwall if I want to hang out exclusively with hunters, they are fun sites but lacking in depth. Most hunters are target shooters for most of the year anyway, and the best hunters are probably pretty serious target shooters even if all they do is roam around stump shooting. In my opinion Archery Talk and Trad Talk are more interesting _because_ of the mixed posting, not weakened by it.

As a hunter I've probably learned more about accurate shooting from the pure target archers on this site than I have from fellow hunters.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Am I wrong in this line of thought?


I'd say so.

As you know, there is target competition in a division called "traditional". FITA is different. Very different gear and techniques and distances. That's why there are different forums. There is some overlap, but I imagine when the fita forum posters look in here and see what a loony bin it is, they don't return. 

Target archery has been around a lot longer than your mechanical broadheads, fiberglass or carbon limbs and arrows and dyneema strings. Call one traditional and not another if you like, but don't expect too many people to understand the distinction, or agree with you.


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## bigtone1411 (Nov 3, 2011)

I think the guys on here that don't hunt and are just target shooters belong here. I feel they are the other half of traditional archery. They are just training for war after the zombie apocalpyse happens. Besides, those Fita guys have too much stuff on their bows.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I think it must be cold In Wisconsin and the rivers and creeks are frozen up ... Ken can't go fishing at home so he came fishing here ...

Nice one mate ........ It was getting kinda boring ... 

Ps ..... You are a gap shooter 

Carry On .....


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## KennyO (Feb 5, 2003)

I used to only hunt ducks, even told my mother-in-law once that I could never shoot a deer (she still reminds me frequently). I shot 3 deer this year, and just made venison chili... People can change. Today's target archer may be tomorrow's deer hunter. Doesn't matter if your target is paper or lungs. If the target archers hang around here enough they may just "see the light".


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

If you follow your thinking those first "trad archers" used a stick and a rock tied on arrow. So to follow your thinking you would need to go to the FITA side with your ILF bow and carbon arrows and your rage broadheads. As stated many people shoot 3D and other field archery with equipment like yours and don't hunt.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I see the pot being stirred, is it dinner time yet? LOL


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Target archers are just hunters that have evolved - sort of like instinctive archers. 

Matt


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I think we worry too much about labels. To me "traditional", in this context, is a broad term describing the general type of equipment and the method of using it. Why make more out of it?


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

I can see your point Ken, but some of us who don't hunt prefer (or can only afford) traditional type tackle and aren't into stringwalking or bolt-on's. This seems like the most fitting forum, though I do visit the FITA forum occasionally. 

If hunting became illegal in the US; would you sell the tradtech for an FITA rig or give up archery all together? My gut says none of the above.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

I find that most "Trad Bowhunters" that I've met live in a Fantasy world...Caught up in the romance and lore of days gone by, and somehow want to re-create that same thing in their own lives, while shooting a bow, or hunting with a bow...Fair play to them...it's their business...But this kind of thread makes me think of the fella that told another guy, "It doesn't bother me that Your NOT tattooed....Why does it bother you that I AM Tattooed???".....I reckon that some folks just cant help being the way they are.......Jim


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ken, I think that is a valid opinion, and I see the sense of where you're coming from, but I also think it's not the only valid opinion.

Target archery is just shooting, and most target bows are more than capable of killing _something_. What's more, it's training that can be applied to what most consider 'hunting' weight bows.

I do a whole lot more target shooting than hunting shooting, though all my bows are on the heavier side of what would typically be considered 'hunting' weight. I'd like to do a whole lot more 'hunting' shooting, but my schedule combined with my terrible hunting skill keeps the ratio highly tilted toward the target side. At one time I even considered using my freestyle 'Target' Rig as a hunting device. Assuming I can get a nice place to stand, and something to stand in front of me... good sniper bow  George Chapman, former coach and role model, once answered my question, "What's the difference between a target and a hunting bow, really?" His answer was this: "Nothing."

Heck, some might consider your bow of choice dangerously close to a 'target' bow weight. Maybe not indoor, but 3D shoots, etc. I don't share that opinion, and we know that your bow is plenty deadly, and you've proven it many times over, but you can see where this division might get slippery.

Myself, I've decided not to have an opinion along these lines. If it doesn't have wheels, it's traditional enough for me. If anybody wants to shift the line, that's fine for that conversation. New conversation, draw the line somewhere else, and that's fine too.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Harperman said:


> I find that most "Trad Bowhunters" that I've met live in a Fantasy world...Caught up in the romance and lore of days gone by, and somehow want to re-create that same thing in their own lives, while shooting a bow, or hunting with a bow...Fair play to them...it's their business...But this kind of thread makes me think of the fella that told another guy, "It doesn't bother me that Your NOT tattooed....Why does it bother you that I AM Tattooed???".....I reckon that some folks just cant help being the way they are.......Jim


Sharp saw the length of your stabilizer and he is envious. 

Matt


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jeb-D. said:


> If hunting became illegal in the US; would you sell the tradtech for an FITA rig or give up archery all together? My gut says none of the above.


that's a good point. I like using the gear I use, regardless of what I'm doing. I enjoy the process and the challenge in itself, no matter what I'm trying to stick.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well - I saw some does - but to far to shot - oh well - still was fun

I posted this just for fun - but I will address Arrowoods post:

"Target archery has been around a lot longer than your mechanical broadheads, fiberglass or carbon limbs and arrows and dyneema strings. Call one traditional and not another if you like, but don't expect too many people to understand the distinction, or agree with you."

Target archery prior to recent times - served one purpose and one purpose only -to make one a better warrior or hunter. My point was that anyone who is not a hunter (since the warrior aspect is gone) and is soley a target shooter - to me that is not really traditional - becuase it misses the entire pupose of archery as it has been traditionally for thousands of years. I would dare to say that a compound bowhunter is more traditional than a guy who shoots at nothing but targets Now if a guy shoots 3D, FITA and 300 Rounds, or whatever else to become the best shot he can when hunting - then he is doing what man has done traditionally for thousands of years. But to take up the bow for the sole purpose of target shooting - that is not a traditional use of the bow and in the history of archery is something very new. Archery Competitions have been held for thousands of years - but the purpose of these was to make for better warriors - competition for the sake of competition is new.

I don't have anything against target archery and if bowhunting became illegal - I would be a target archer - and would likely change some of my equipment around to revolve around that sole purpose - but now - my equipment is set up for the primary reason of my shooting - that is bowhunting - and if I gave up bowhunting - I would not consider myself "traditional" but a target archer and my equipment would likely reflect that change.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I have a great bow buuuuut I ain't going to take it to a gun fight LOL. It I do hunt with a bow and have for years. That being said I love the 3D shooting even more than hunting. I just get to shoot so seldom hunting and the war is so slow I never fire an arrow........


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Am I wrong in this line of thought?


Yes you are.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Bows have not been a primary or even a much used secondary weapon of war for 100's of years. 
A strong case could be made that recreational, target and any other non hunting archery pursuits have taken the place of "for war use".
Europe has 10's of thousand's of traditional archers (other than fita users) utilizing equipment far more primitive than the
majority of what you see at an IBO Trad shoot.
Since only a relative handful will ever hunt, they should only be in the FITA forum?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I think the guys that shoot strictly Osage bows river cane arrows and flint knapped heads look at a very simple rig like yours being made of fiberglass and carbon with Rage open on impact heads which I'm not a fan of but have never said anything out of the way about because you like them..and they think gees why doesn't a hypocrit like him just buy a compound....I'm noT saying that but we have to accept all types of archery whether it's strictly target or Osage and river cane as traditional as long as it doesn't have wheels of some type...

Dewayne


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> well - I saw some does - but to far to shot - oh well - still was fun
> 
> I posted this just for fun - but I will address Arrowoods post:
> 
> ...



Thousands of years ago..I don't think traditional was a word. LOL


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

Shooting a stickbow is fun even if you aren't doing it in a "traditional" way like our ancestors.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Lil Okie said:


> Thousands of years ago..I don't think traditional was a word. LOL


Heck 50 years ago


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Well you don't define who we are or where we belong. I for one don't think you are close to a traditional hunter with all your modern equipment. Not even close. In fact a lot of us would go stay on the FITA side if you promise to stay here.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I think that most of the true target only shooter pretty much hangout over at FITA don't they???

Dewayne


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Nobody flips out when hunting is mentioned on the FITA forum, either. I wonder why sharpb.h. doesn't post his target stuff over there?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well?..guess i'll weigh in here...and i weigh a ton! :laugh:

1st off?: Great topic Ken! :thumbs_up one that i guess "could be" a touchy topic (like one poster stated) but only for folks who might be a tad..well?.."touchy"? :laugh:

So i guess if we all just remain lightened up enough to discuss this great topic we may actually gleen some deeper insight into what it is we do..and how the "why's" become the "how's" of how and why we do it..and i guess it's "The Hows & Whys" that is truely at the root of this discussion/topic..that said?..yes..the two earliest reasons to shoot traditionally were for weaponry and hunting..but traditional shooting has "evolved" into so much more and i was just thinking about this very topic about two hours ago..as i ended a phone convo with Steve Abbott of Abbott Bows..whereby i've just recently sold my ILF Excel and looking to replace it with something more..uhem.."traditional"..and the call was me inquiring of Steve about one of the "in-stock" bows he had listed..a 66" 36#@28" cocobolo/yew beauty..said he'd hafta call me tomorrow evening..wasn't sure he still had it in stock cause he moved a lot of bows during the Christmas holidays...understable..but here's the line he said that made me think...

"Yeah...i've been getting a run on the lower poundage bows these days."

as i sat back thinking about that statement and figuring.."I bet you have"..and?.."why"?...and i know why.."shooting traditionally" has evolved into something much more than just weaponry or hunting..and really?..it didn't become "hunting" until we got past the basic need "to provide food"..and it evolved into the word "hunting" when we discovered we needed to pass 3 grocery stores to get to the woods. :laugh:

but back to Steve's comment that got me thinking..of "why the run on lower poundage longbows?".and the answers simple..as in these evolutionay days of shooting traditionally?..the prime purpose has evolved into shooting traditionally "competitively"...so now we have three reasons..and #1 these days?..seems to be "Trad Competition"..even if it's the backyard wannabe (like myself) posting pics and vids trying to become the next Tradbow weilding Rock Star. :laugh:

and guess what?...it's cool..it's fun..folks are enjoying themselves..and?..along with the wonders of the age of the internet?..it serves to breath new life into and promote this activity we all seem to love so much..besides?..it's great for old dogs like me..it's addictively fun..and once ya got yer gear costs almost nothing to do..and keeps me active and plugged into something...and as long as you have access to a light enough bow?..it's "doable" for hours on end..which beats heck out of chain smoking my way through yet another bag of chips while watching reality shows! :laugh:

and now if you'll excuse me?..i'm missing one of my favorite shows..."Big Bang Theory"..the only one i watch...for some laughs..and i don't bother pulling the plug on the 500watt halogens out back cause soon as it's over?.. 

oh and PS: i'm picking up my new-to-me D-longbow tomorrow evening and..it's not an abbott..just made the deal about an hour and a 1/2 ago and?..i'm freaking thrilled. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> I shoot mine to prepare for war.


I have to agree, I have seen the future (assuming the future is like Mad Max) and a lot of people are using bows...


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hummmm if I was a deer who would I be more scared of Sharp or Limbwalker me thinks Limbwalker who is a a very active bowhunter - bet he doesn't consider himself "trad"

Matt


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Heck 50 years ago


Shh.. don't tell everybody Apparently.. it's a well kept secret


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is one for you sharp









Gosh 4 out of the six were using sights in the FIRST deer season in WI - guess they weren't very evolved or didn't know they were supposed to be trad

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Here is one for you sharp
> 
> View attachment 1558502
> 
> ...


Oh Man!...or should i say...BAZINGA! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Traditionally, archery had two primary purposes: A weapon of war, and a weapon of the hunt.
> 
> Traditionally target archery was only to make the archer a better warrior or hunter.
> 
> ...


Wasn't the argument against having a traditional bowhunters forum exactly that... that we are tradtional archery and everyone just loves everyone elses pastimes?


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## Gopherman (Aug 13, 2008)

Maybe I am not thinking hard enough about this topic or just read it too quickly. That being said, one could argue that archery is just archery. We launch projectiles with a string in order to hit something. The real difference, based on the argument posted here, is what we designate as the target. In practice, it might be a milk jug, bale of hay, or another item. While hunting, the target becomes a squirrel or deer.

As I think of it, this argument would be similar to identifying meat eaters and scavengers as traditional eaters as oppose to those non-nomadic grain eaters. In the end they are just eating, but their methods are a bit different.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I just believe 'some' people need to understand and acknowledge that people have different goals, abilities and personalities which is EXACTLY why there are sooo many different forms and techniques related to archery.
> 
> *I love having both mindsets here.*
> 
> Ray :shade:


you mean some of you still possess yours... :grin:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I avoid the "T" word. It's just archery to me...sometimes I hunt with my archery tackle and other times I target shoot with my archery tackle.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> you mean some of you still possess yours... :grin:


Heck yeah! Don't you? :grin:

Ray :shade:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> I would guess that shortly after the first primitive human developed a way to launch a short spear from a stick and string they also discovered that the key to effectively using this new weapon was practice. That said practice was enjoyable would also stand to reason. Might it be that some tribe members enjoyed shooting bows but did not take part in hunting or war...who knows. Makes one wonder on what form of wagers were entered into by our primitive ancestors, you know there were some...lol.
> 
> I certainly don't think you are wrong in your thinking, the bow was obviously developed as a way to increase the effective range of primitive weapons, whether they were used on neighbors, game, or protection from predators. Pure target archery is a relatively recent development simply because it's only been in recent human history have we had the time to pursue such things.
> 
> ...


That summed it up nicely for me


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> That summed it up nicely for me


I'll 2nd. or 3rd. that! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Remember that what we call traditional now (in ANY area of endeavor) was, in the appropriate time, considered "modern" or "bleeding edge" -- just depends on your point of view and the time you are viewing it in.

Arne


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Actually, the FITA barebow folks like me are really tweaners. I get along well with the FITA Oly style and compound target guys. I also get along well with the traditional guys, including bow hunters. I think that traditional has seen a positive impact from folks bringing Olympic style form and training methods to the traditional side. That and ILF gear, which has been on the target side for many years. I remember a couple of years ago, traditional folks and bow hunters asking what ILF was. Now many are shooting modern ILF bows in a hunting configuration. I do not consider what I do traditional, but I do consider that there is much that I can learn about shooting barebow from traditional archers, and much that I can offer. I do not really feel that the NFAA traditional class is really traditional, just as I definitely do not consider the barebow class as barebow. I am preparing to shoot FITA field now, which is seldom competed in the US, but at least it has the best, and internationally recognized, definition of a barebow. Anyway, I like this forum, but I definitely do not feel traditional, except when I shoot my longbow with wood arrows. So, thanks for tolerating me (assuming that you actually do).


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

guys this was a tongue in cheek thread - nobody is flipping out and I am not the trad police by any stretch - I don't care if you shoot a self bow, a recurve, longbow, compound, or xbow - I don't care if you shoot stone points or Rage exxpandables - I don't care if wear camo or a loin cloth - well - I have to admit - I have a fantasy of seeing Dewayne in loin cloth - 

All kidding aside - the only thing that kinda bugs me is when guys show up at an outdoor 3D shoot hosted by the IBO - International BOWHUNTING Organization with 25lb bows that are obviously not used for bowhunting - but what ya gonna do - it is what it is.

I love archery and shoot 3D and 300 Rounds - field archery is not big around here - so I have never done that - but if I were to get into long range archery - personally - I would put sights on my bow and shoot in that class - i mean - 50 + yards - that is rifle range in my neck of the woods.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I am hunting trad with my compound in AZ. Nonsight and fingers shoot it exactly the same as my recurve. The flight of the arrow is beautiful it just goes faster. That's my tradition. Trad is what you make it and some of you are just going to have to deal with it.
Gary


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken next time we meet I might have to wear my loin cloth BVDs......


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Now this is Traditional attire.

If a loin cloth isn't part of your ensemble...you're not TRAD (Tired Radical Archery Dork) :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Heck yeah! Don't you? :grin:
> 
> Ray :shade:


 lemme ax the missuse again... she been tellin me that every time I ask for favors... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> lemme ax the missuse again... she been tellin me that every time I ask for favors... :grin:


Doh! :doh:

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I know you well enough to know when you are being serious and when you are just having fun...which kind of scares me. Anyway, I killed 5 deer this year, 6 last, 5 the year before that, Afghanistan the year prior, 6 the year before that, Iraq the year before that, I can't recall from memory before that, but most of those deer were with selfbows and wood arrows which I made. I also killed about 50 squirrels in those years with bows and I DO NOT consider myself "Traditional." I use the word because in today's world it's hard to communicate without it. I am an archer and I love shooting my 30# sissy bow. I also like shooting lots of others. So calling one traditional or not is really irrelevant. It's just a word that very few people can agree on the definition of, just like the word instinctive. ;-) G'day.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> All kidding aside - the only thing that kinda bugs me is when guys show up at an outdoor 3D shoot hosted by the IBO - International BOWHUNTING Organization with 25lb bows that are obviously not used for bowhunting - but what ya gonna do - it is what it is.


I forgot what you've said before - what's your main reason for shooting in these tournaments?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm thinkin' Jimmy looks pretty good in a loin cloth - anyone else think so too?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

the primary reason that I shoot a bow is because I am a bowhunter and to be a better bowhunter - and competitive shoots help me to be a better bowhunter on many levels - not the least of which is shooting under pressure.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Back in them days, it was top of the line weapon, for war ,and hunting, they didn't have a Kroger, they hunted to survive, Now we do it as a sport (kinda) and have guns for war


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

tpcowfish - exactly - traditionally - archery had much more meaning associated with it than just a plastic trophy - it was life and death - whether it be in war or in hunting - your skills as an archery could mean your life or your death - whether by war or by starvation - and when that aspect is completely gone - well - the bow sort of becomes a toy and archery a game. Obviously today we do not use bows for war - and when we do use them for hunting we will likely not starve if we don't kill an animal - but the hunt does recapture at least some of what archery was for thousands of years.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, it is life and death for whatever you're hunting.

I suppose if any compulsive gamblers bet on Archery Matches and borrow the money from Big Tony, could be life and death in a Target situation as well


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I used to shoot primarily as practice for hunting. However, the hunting is so lousy around here that lately I've been skipping hunting to shoot. When I'm in the tree stand I feel like I'm wasting good shooting time. 

I guess we could call it practice in case I ever have a place to hunt.


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## mcharles (Nov 11, 2009)

*The Good Old Days...*

Yep, here's a photo of a platoon of vicious traditional archers practicing for war & then later going out for drinks and a late evening deer drive...

I sure miss the good old days


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

those women are target archers and part of the modern era of archery - archery has been around since the fall of man, but was not a "sport" until the modern era - of which those women are a part of


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm really starting not to like the word traditional..I'm with Jimmy, I'm a archer that hunts


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## ladyeclectic (Dec 10, 2012)

I started on this subforum when I first got (or contemplated getting) my Samick Sage. Since switching to a more ILF rig, I'm over at the FITA boards now too but still come here because there are a lot of folks who shoot RECURVE ("traditional" or not) who have utterly invaluable information but only stay here. If Jimmy or Viper or a host of other folks posted more on FITA, I'd stay there. For now, because I shoot RECURVE, and want the best advice from all sides, I'll stick with coming and going from both forums.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> those women are target archers and part of the modern era of archery - archery has been around since the fall of man, but was not a "sport" until the modern era - of which those women are a part of


What's your definition of 'sport'?

If you're definition of 'sport' means or involves organized target competition...I can tell you that my Cherokee ancestors were involved in the 'sport' of archery looooong before this so called era you seem to be claiming it all started in. The Cherokees had an archery competition that involved shooting at cornstalk bales from long distance and the winner was determined by not only who was the most accurate...but whose arrow penetrated the bale the furthest.

All a person needs to do is spend just a little time researching archery to see that the 'sport' of archery in regards to it involving organized target competition has been around ALOT longer in MANY different cultures than the 19th. century.

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Those ladies were pigeon hunters. They are dressed accordingly for park hunting.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

black wolf - the reason that they competed was to become better archers to be better hunters - not for the sole purpose of competition (back to my original post)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> black wolf - the reason that they competed was to become better archers to be better hunters - not for the sole purpose of competition (back to my original post)


If a bowhunter's sole purpose is to hunt animals....he does NOT need to compete to become better at what he does or is striving to do. The same goes for a warrior.

An archer competes for pleasure or motivation to see who is the best or how they rank with other archers. An archer PRACTICES to become a better warrior, better bowhunter, etc. etc. at whatever their goal is which does NOT necessarily involve having to compete in a target archery competition. 

The activity of target competition was basically created for pleasure to see who the best archer was. It does NOT matter if the archer is a warrior or bowhunter...if he competed in an archery target competition for pleasure...it is called a 'sport' by definition...therefore the 'sport' of archery has been around for a very very loooong time :wink:

Target archery can easily be considered to be traditional. 

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Target archery is pure. There is no pay-off or reason needed to practice, you are participating to become as accurate as you possibly can. There is no good enough, there is only constant improvement.

-Grant


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

These days ,it's all a sport, whether hunting ,or target, none is a necessity.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

What we need is a fantasy archer forum - these topics can be played out there


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

grantmac said:


> Target archery is pure. There is no pay-off or reason needed to practice, you are participating to become as accurate as you possibly can. There is no good enough, there is only constant improvement.
> 
> -Grant


Great post Grant

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

the same can be said of bowhunters - the pay off is being as accurate as you possibly can - instead of a plastic trophy or our name in lights on the internet or somewhere else - we quitely drag our "trophy" out of the woods and into the freezer.

Blackwolf - you really need to examine the history of archery and archery competition if you honestly do not believe that it revolved around war and hunting.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

tpcowfish said:


> These days ,it's all a sport, whether hunting ,or target, none is a necessity.


That would depend on how you live.

My trot lines, chicken coup and what I hunt makes up a significan portion of my groceries. I could spend more time trying to earn cash instead of doing all that but I don't want to. Cut out the middle man.

Hunting is NOT a sport to me.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

MGF said:


> That would depend on how you live.
> 
> My trot lines, chicken coup and what I hunt makes up a significan portion of my groceries. I could spend more time trying to earn cash instead of doing all that but I don't want to. Cut out the middle man.
> 
> Hunting is NOT a sport to me.


Then why not hunting with a rifle or a compound?? - not taking a shot at you just genuinely curious - there are MUCH more effective ways to put meat on the table than a stick bow.

Matt


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Then why not hunting with a rifle or a compound?? - not taking a shot at you just genuinely curious - there are MUCH more effective ways to put meat on the table than a stick bow.
> 
> Matt


+1 he may eat the meat but he is no doubt doing it for the sport.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Excellent point Matt. I live on a fair sized reservation and have had the pleasure of meeting a few tribe members who hunt to feed the family. For them it is not a sport. When they go afield for that purpose, it's the rifle that goes with them not the bow. I hunt, but not out of need. When they do take the bow, it's only after the freezer is sufficiently filled for the season. I take my bow or blackpowder over my rifle for the challenge and because I find it more "sporting." I practice as often as I can with both but I do not compete in target or 3D events simply because I prefer solitude, peace and quiet when shooting. I have received good information on this forum from both target archers and hunters.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Then why not hunting with a rifle or a compound?? - not taking a shot at you just genuinely curious - there are MUCH more effective ways to put meat on the table than a stick bow.
> 
> Matt


Traps are more effective than hunting but trapping is HIGHLY regulated and restricted. 

Regarding bows, I started with a compound and I'm not so sure that it's all that much more effective for hunting especially if you consider all the different kinds of hunting you might do and sustainability.

As to guns?...maybe we'll have that conversation some time.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

cossack said:


> Excellent point Matt. I live on a fair sized reservation and have had the pleasure of meeting a few tribe members who hunt to feed the family. For them it is not a sport. When they go afield for that purpose, it's the rifle that goes with them not the bow. I hunt, but not out of need. When they do take the bow, it's only after the freezer is sufficiently filled for the season. I take my bow or blackpowder over my rifle for the challenge and because I find it more "sporting." I practice as often as I can with both but I do not compete in target or 3D events simply because I prefer solitude, peace and quiet when shooting. I have received good information on this forum from both target archers and hunters.


Wow, everybody knows it all. 

24 years ago, I caught a guy putting the sneak on my wife and a neighbor lady as they walked down the street. I lived out in the country, didn't have a phone and it was late at night.

I told the guy to go away and when he came at me, I pointed a gun at him and told him again.

They called it "unlawful restraint" and I can't go near a gun without a near automatic jail sentence. In spite of having raised a family, started several businesses, payed a ton in taxes, getting a college education and so on, I'm not a real citizen like most of you are. A gun is simply NOT an option.

I do take some small game with an air rifle but that's not even legal in all states. While I love shooting and hunting with my bows, I choose the bow for some hunting because it's the only choice there is. Boy I sure miss chasing rabbits with my 12 gauge!

Anyway, all is not lost. My wife has a carry permit and she protects me. LOL

This not about sport for me. It's about replacing what I lost and enjoying our "wild places" in the best way I can. It's about gaining a measure of freedom back by way of the skill I can develop in my own two hands and going forward with what I have. Does that sound like a sport?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - I can answer your question - because I can only take so many deer with a rifle legally - I can add to that amount of deer with a bow tag - and before you ask why not use a compound or xbow - 1. xbows are not legal for me - 2. I believe that a tradbow shot instinctively is a much more effectve hunting weapon than a compound - for me at least.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

MGF - thanks for answering my question like I said I wasn't taking a shot at you I was genuinely interested. I think our felony laws are a crock if you serve the time and or pay the fine then you should have ALL of your rights reinstated. Not just some of them.

Sharp - out here with the more open area and longer shot opportunities the compound is a much more effective weapon but, I can see where you are coming from with treestand whitetails.

Matt


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> MGF - thanks for answering my question like I said I wasn't taking a shot at you I was genuinely interested. I think our felony laws are a crock if you serve the time and or pay the fine then you should have ALL of your rights reinstated. Not just some of them.
> 
> 
> Matt


That's not the reaction I expected. Even the NRA doesn't agree with you.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> MGF - thanks for answering my question like I said I wasn't taking a shot at you I was genuinely interested. I think our felony laws are a crock if you serve the time and or pay the fine then you should have ALL of your rights reinstated. Not just some of them.
> 
> Sharp - out here with the more open area and longer shot opportunities the compound is a much more effective weapon but, I can see where you are coming from with treestand whitetails.
> 
> Matt


You sure let people off the hook easily.:teeth:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Because without the "Us and them" theory, there would be nobody to mock and point at? I like my 30# sissy bow too..more than any other really.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> You sure let people off the hook easily.:teeth:



He does, doesn't he?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

MGF said:


> That's not the reaction I expected. Even the NRA doesn't agree with you.


Yeah well I don't agree with them most of the time either - LOL

But, seriously a guy gets a felony DUI and after he serves his time he gets to drive again but, can't own a gun FOREVER - even though a DUI has nothing to do with guns what so ever - that makes no sense to me.

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Considering some of the crimes that are labeled as "felony" - I would agree with Matt - and what the NRA has to do with anything is beyond me - who cares what they agree with or do not agree with - they support many violations of the 2nd Ammendment - if you are interested in a Gun rights group - Gun Owners of America is much better and is consitutional.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yeah well I don't agree with them most of the time either - LOL
> 
> But, seriously a guy gets a felony DUI and after he serves his time he gets to drive again but, can't own a gun FOREVER - even though a DUI has nothing to do with guns what so ever - that makes no sense to me.
> 
> Matt


These laws aren't about protecting the public. They're about taking as many rights as possible away from as many people as possible.

I'm almost 54 years old and with the exception of that single incident (however you want to look at it) I've never been anything but extremely productive and I've never done anything to my neighbors but help them.

If somebody could make the case that I'm dangerous, I should be locked up or killed. LOL but they need me to pay taxes and spoend money...which I try to do as little of as possible.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Blackwolf - you really need to examine the history of archery and archery competition if you honestly do not believe that it revolved around war and hunting.


I NEVER said target archery competition was not inspired or not related in any way to war or hunting.

ALL I said...if you would pay attention and NOT make poor assumptions or try to read between the lines....is that target archery competitions were around ALOT longer than the 19th. century...and if you look up the word 'sport' in the dictionary...it does NOT say that a sport can not be inspired by war or hunting related activities. So a 'sport' can be inspired by war, hunting or any other need...but the competition itself is primarily based on enjoyment.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Considering some of the crimes that are labeled as "felony" - I would agree with Matt - and what the NRA has to do with anything is beyond me - who cares what they agree with or do not agree with - they support many violations of the 2nd Ammendment - if you are interested in a Gun rights group - Gun Owners of America is much better and is consitutional.


I'm not certain of federal law but my state (and others I'm sure) does distinguish between one felony and another to some degree. I only mentioned the NRA because they're the "big guys". I do know that federal law does not consider black powder firearms as guns. I could be quit happy hunting with a cap lock or flint lock but many states (including mine) disallow it.

It just so happens that in my state the process of getting your civil rights back involves petitioning the court. All it takes is MONEY and the right judge. Money is the key. I think my record could stand on it's own in front of any reasonable court. Come on, we have terrorist bombers who are university professors and personal friends of the President of the United States. I could never compete with that.

In my home state, where this happened, (Illinois) you can simply apply for a Firearm Owners Identification card 20 years after the end of your sentence. My guess is that they would probably reject the application but there is an appeal process. No attorney required.

It's just one of those things. Life isn't perfect (or fair) for anybody. I have a fantastic wife, good health, two great kids, three beautiful grand children and enough to eat.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Black - you are the one that needs to read posts - go back and read what I have said in this thread and your strawman will fall down.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

MGF - you are right about all that


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Black - you are the one that needs to read posts - go back and read what I have said in this thread and your strawman will fall down.


LOL...the only strawman that was created was by you because you refuse to understand what a 'sport' means.

The sport of archery has been around alot longer than the expandable broadheads you choose to use...therefore the sport of target shooting is far more 'traditional' than you're willing to comprehend and the expandable broadheads you like to hype up.

You seem to want to use the word 'traditional' as a badge of honor....in a similar way I see you using the word 'instinctive' to describe your aiming technique.

Who really gives a crap if you're traditional or not or aiming Instinctively or not. It should only matter for educational and teaching purposes...and if you made more of an effort to understand how 'traditional' can be used...you would see that the sport of archery target competition is very traditional...whether a person hunts or goes off to war does NOT matter.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Lil Okie said:


> I agree with you Ray, But I doubt we will change his mind..LOL


LOL...I agree! Some people just can't accept that someone may disagree with them and will come up with all sorts of things to support their beliefs while ignoring some of the other evidence.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm first and foremost an archer...who loves to bowhunt, perform trick shots and compete in archery tournaments with what many consider 'traditional' archery equipment.

If there was no such thing as a longbow or recurve...I'd be shooting a compound bow with absolutely no hesitation. I just prefer to shoot my recurve.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Archers that are strictly or primarily target archers, who choose to use longbows or recurves can really be nothing less than an asset here on the 'trad' forum...especially if they are wise enough to know that there will be different needs and circumstances that can shape a particular archer's style and technique to suit that particular archer's goals, abilities and personality.

If a target archer is constantly pushing there way is the only right way for all archers...it can get pretty annoying and blantantly obvious how narrow their way of thinking and coaching is :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yeah well I don't agree with them most of the time either - LOL
> 
> But, seriously a guy gets a felony DUI and after he serves his time he gets to drive again but, can't own a gun FOREVER - even though a DUI has nothing to do with guns what so ever - that makes no sense to me.
> 
> Matt


Is it a felony? You can always petition the governor for a pardon with the express authorization to carry firearms.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm first and foremost an archer...who loves to bowhunt, perform trick shots and compete in archery tournaments with what many consider *'traditional' archery equipment*.
> 
> If there was no such thing as a longbow or recurve...I'd be shooting a compound bow with absolutely no hesitation. I just prefer to shoot my recurve.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ahhhhh a self bow no less.... laminated with musk ox horn.. cool.... :grin:

We've been through this a zillion times, but I'm of the opinion, we should be using the term, *"traditional style"* rather than "traditional" and that way you overcome the arguments of "well its got a metal riser... sights.... holes through the riser one way or another... yeah but its fiberglass... and .....

so for the price of two guava sticks... you get some great advise.... :grin:







and the forgoing being the learned opinion of the three resident entities sitting at this keybored.... :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

anytime old blackwolf gets called out you can expect to see multiple posts in a row - anyhow the only time in this thread that I mentioned the word _sport_ - was in quotes - indicating that it was not me calling it a sport or not calling it a sport - rather - indicating that this is how some refer to it - therein lies the strawman.

bowhunting can be described as a sport - not my preference - but it can be described as such - but not as a game - target archery can be described as a game - therein lies the difference


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Is it a felony? You can always petition the governor for a pardon with the express authorization to carry firearms.


A DUI can be a felony...was that the question?

Speaking for myself, I know that when I petition the governor, he just jumps right on it...that was sarcasm in case you couldn't tell. Why the hell would a governor pay any attention to my petition? But you're correct. A gubernatorial pardon would do the trick. I'll take three.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> anytime old blackwolf gets called out you can expect to see multiple posts in a row - anyhow the only time in this thread that I mentioned the word _sport_ - was in quotes - indicating that it was not me calling it a sport or not calling it a sport - rather - indicating that this is how some refer to it - therein lies the strawman.
> 
> bowhunting can be described as a sport - not my preference - but it can be described as such - but not as a game - target archery can be described as a game - therein lies the difference


If it aint subsistance hunting... it is sport hunting.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> bowhunting can be described as a sport - not my preference - but it can be described as such - but not as a game - target archery can be described as a game - therein lies the difference


Hmmmmmm...I wonder why the term Big Game is often used to describe deer, elk, bear, etc. as it regards to the type of animal a hunter pursues??? :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Ahhhhh a self bow no less.... laminated with musk ox horn.. cool.... :grin:


That would be AWESOME! :wink:



rattus58 said:


> We've been through this a zillion times, but I'm of the opinion, we should be using the term, *"traditional style"* rather than "traditional" and that way you overcome the arguments of "well its got a metal riser... sights.... holes through the riser one way or another... yeah but its fiberglass... and .....
> 
> so for the price of two guava sticks... you get some great advise.... :grin:


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> If it aint subsistance hunting... it is sport hunting.


:thumbs_up

Yep....if a person does NOT NEED to or HAS to...and rather chooses to or just wants to hunt rather than getting their meat from a grocery store or butcher...it can be considered by many as 'sport' hunting.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I agree that hunting can be labeled as a sport - but it cannot be labeled as a game. Target archery can be labeled as and is many times a game - hunting is not a game.

subsistance hunting is a subjective term - sure I can buy meat at the grocery store - meat filled with hormones, unnatural feed, unnatural processing procedures, etc... - but do I want to eat that type of meat - ummmm - nope - that is why me and my family have venison and locally raised pigs and chickens as our primary meat source.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Now this is Traditional attire.
> 
> If a loin cloth isn't part of your ensemble...you're not TRAD (Tired Radical Archery Dork) :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray...How many time do I have to ask You to stop posting pics of me on here??.............Jim


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I agree that hunting can be labeled as a sport - *but it cannot be labeled as a game.*


Who says it can not be labeled as a 'game'?

Why are deer and elk considered....Big Game?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Harperman said:


> Ray...How many time do I have to ask You to stop posting pics of me on here??.............Jim


Doh! :doh: I'm sorry...your agent said I could :wink: I promise it won't happen again :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I agree that hunting can be labeled as a sport - but it cannot be labeled as a game. Target archery can be labeled as and is many times a game - hunting is not a game.
> 
> subsistance hunting is a subjective term - sure I can buy meat at the grocery store - meat filled with hormones, unnatural feed, unnatural processing procedures, etc... - but do I want to eat that type of meat - ummmm - nope - that is why me and my family have venison and locally raised pigs and chickens as our primary meat source.


Hmmmmmm seems to me that the argument against compounds originally was that it wasn't fair... the current argument against crossbows is that it isn't fair... and definitely brings it into the realm of "competition" or the argument doesn't wash... 

Isn't archery a sport? Isn't hunting a sport?


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Hunting is not a Sport....According to Webster's, there has to be two willing participants....The quarry that we hunt IS NOT willing to play the game....There are Sports that involve animals, but Hunting aint one of them.........Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Sharp....if You only shoot 3-D or whatever else, for Hunting practice, etc.etc...Then why do You care is someone shows up at a Competition with a 25# draw bow??....Your not there to WIN, and feel like the lighter bow might be shot more accurately, and that the lighter weight bow might put the shooter of such a bow at an advantage over You, right??.....OR....are You really there to WIN??....Aside from that, small game can be hunted quite well with a 25# draw weight bow...Jim


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Traditional Archery? 

Traditional archery is hanging out with my archery buddies, having a good time.
Traditional archery is watching my arrow fly like a bullet out of my 60# Omega longbow.
Traditional archery is sitting in a tree stand forever waiting for a deer to cross my path.
Traditional archery is competing IBO so I can learn from the experience, meet new people, and have fun.
Traditional archery is a journey, a means to an end, a useful tool, a game, or whatever it means to you.

Just one of my rare philosophical moments.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Harperman said:


> Hunting is not a Sport....According to Webster's, there has to be two willing participants....The quarry that we hunt IS NOT willing to play the game....There are Sports that involve animals, but Hunting aint one of them.........Jim


This is what I found in Webster...


> sport
> noun
> 
> Definition of SPORT
> ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Harper - I don't care what bugs me is that it is taking away from the orginizations stated purpose and intent - the IBO is a BOWHUNTING organization - not a target organization. If it just becomes another target organization - then that is a loss to bowhunters. Your sarcastic comments notwithstanding - I don't care what bow anyone wants to shoot and I have shot against guys in target competitions with bows set up specifically for that competition and held my own - so that is not it at all - and as far as I know the 3 guys who scored higher than me at the IBO all were shooting hunting weight bows - so your digs hold no water at all.

Rattus - who ever said compounds and crossbows "aren't fair" - I have never said that and don't recall ever hearing it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

btw - hunting can clearly be defined as a sport: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport?s=ts

I don't think that is the best word to define hunting - but it can be used.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh yeah? My feet are cold! Argue on that for awhile!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

You guys make my head hurt...

Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog - just relax in your loincloth - and all will be well -  Look on the bright side - you could have been chewing on some migrant workers bandaid in our salad like I did last night!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

My boys are relaxing in my loincloth as we speak.....I'm sorry about the bandaid thing...but have you ever gave much thought about what all body parts that bandaid could have been on?????


I know..that was mean....


Dewayne


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Harper - I don't care what bugs me is that it is taking away from the orginizations stated purpose and intent - the IBO is a BOWHUNTING organization - not a target organization. If it just becomes another target organization - then that is a loss to bowhunters. Your sarcastic comments notwithstanding - I don't care what bow anyone wants to shoot and I have shot against guys in target competitions with bows set up specifically for that competition and held my own - so that is not it at all - and as far as I know the 3 guys who scored higher than me at the IBO all were shooting hunting weight bows - so your digs hold no water at all.
> 
> Rattus - who ever said compounds and crossbows "aren't fair" - I have never said that and don't recall ever hearing it.


Not only do I hear that term, "fair" used to describe crossbow use in archery seasons, when I got into archery, the idea of using a compound in archery seasons was in hot debate till the several archery organizations and IBEF came together to define archery as something you have to hold by hand. This by iteself cast the question of fair or not fair as regards a crossbow in an archery season and I still question why... a crossbow is a bow... pure and simple... so why isn't it allowed? Because it isn't fair?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

If I'm ever in a 'fair' situation with something I'm hunting, I'm screwed


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Harper - I don't care what bugs me is that it is taking away from the orginizations stated purpose and intent - the IBO is a BOWHUNTING organization - not a target organization. If it just becomes another target organization - then that is a loss to bowhunters. Your sarcastic comments notwithstanding - I don't care what bow anyone wants to shoot and I have shot against guys in target competitions with bows set up specifically for that competition and held my own - so that is not it at all - and as far as I know the 3 guys who scored higher than me at the IBO all were shooting hunting weight bows - so your digs hold no water at all.
> 
> Rattus - who ever said compounds and crossbows "aren't fair" - I have never said that and don't recall ever hearing it.


Ken..Not being sarcastic, not digging at You....Just stating facts as they are....You compete in Archery tourneys, then have issues with those that dont choose the equipment that You think they should compete with...two newsflashes for ya, Ken...#1...They sell 25# limbs that fit your riser every day, if You feel that light limbs are an advantage, just buy some, or quit complaining about those that do...#2....The IBO is a "Bowhunting" organization, but the money that they take in because of the TARGET competitions pays the bills, and allows the IBO to continue to support hunting..The majority of "Bowhunters" don't do much , if anything, to support, or protect their privilege to hunt with a bow, (or hunt for that matter), outside of equipment purchases, and Hunting license/tag fees....maybe You don't know it, but most of us on here see through Your poorly disguised "I was just joking" threads....You will now be one of the few that I've ever used the "Ignore" button on...Buh-Buy!.........Jim


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BarneySlayer said:


> If I'm ever in a 'fair' situation with something I'm hunting, I'm screwed


hahah.... yes as someone once said... if you come to a fair fight, your tactics suck... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Harperman said:


> Ken..Not being sarcastic, not digging at You....Just stating facts as they are....You compete in Archery tourneys, then have issues with those that dont choose the equipment that You think they should compete with...two newsflashes for ya, Ken...#1...They sell 25# limbs that fit your riser every day, if You feel that light limbs are an advantage, just buy some, or quit complaining about those that do...#2....The IBO is a "Bowhunting" organization, but the money that they take in because of the TARGET competitions pays the bills, and allows the IBO to continue to support hunting..*The majority of "Bowhunters" don't do much , if anything, to support, or protect their privilege to hunt with a bow, (or hunt for that matter), outside of equipment purchases, and Hunting license/tag fees*....maybe You don't know it, but most of us on here see through Your poorly disguised "I was just joking" threads....You will now be one of the few that I've ever used the "Ignore" button on...Buh-Buy!.........Jim


On that note... the USFWS told me two years ago that "Pittman Robertson" (catchall for all three funds including pistols and archery) is primarliy funded (or was then) mostly funded now by target shooters.... via ammunition sales....


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> On that note... the USFWS told me two years ago that "Pittman Robertson" (catchall for all three funds including pistols and archery) is primarliy funded (or was then) mostly funded now by target shooters.... via ammunition sales....


Pittman Robertson, and the Lacey Act pretty much support the financial burden of all Outdoor sports..Hunters alone couldn't come close to doing it....Jim


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> what bugs me is that it is taking away from the orginizations stated purpose and intent - the IBO is a BOWHUNTING organization - not a target organization. If it just becomes another target organization - then that is a loss to bowhunters.


If the IBO agreed with you, wouldn't they change the competition equipment rules to accomodate that position? Have you stated your case to them? What was their response?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Harperman said:


> Pittman Robertson, and the Lacey Act pretty much support the financial burden of all Outdoor sports..Hunters alone couldn't come close to doing it....Jim


I thought Lacy was for the trafficing in game and now plants and stuff... how they screwed gibson guitar manufacturer ... a rupublican no less... how'd that happen... 0bviously a mistake... :grin:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Arcus said:


> If the IBO agreed with you, wouldn't they change the competition equipment rules to accomodate that position? Have you stated your case to them? What was their response?


First off, spouting nonsense is at issue - no serious adult competitors are showing up with 25# bows. Heck, finding decent target arrows would be one of many challenges doing so. Maybe 35# bows, but second off, there's no such thing as a "hunting weight" bow - that's his definition. Depending on what you hunt, about any bow any adult is shooting at any 3D attended will be sufficient hunting weight. The guys showing up with their 55# are just there for a different reason than others, that's well known and well proven. Stuff like this, circular talk around nothingness, probably does as much harm for the sport of trad target shooting as it does trad bowhunting.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> You bored Ken??
> 
> Matt


Yep guess he was. 

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

barneyslayer said:


> if i'm ever in a 'fair' situation with something i'm hunting, i'm screwed


 lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Harperman said:


> Ken..Not being sarcastic, not digging at You....Just stating facts as they are....You compete in Archery tourneys, then have issues with those that dont choose the equipment that You think they should compete with...two newsflashes for ya, Ken...#1...They sell 25# limbs that fit your riser every day, if You feel that light limbs are an advantage, just buy some, or quit complaining about those that do...#2....The IBO is a "Bowhunting" organization, but the money that they take in because of the TARGET competitions pays the bills, and allows the IBO to continue to support hunting..The majority of "Bowhunters" don't do much , if anything, to support, or protect their privilege to hunt with a bow, (or hunt for that matter), outside of equipment purchases, and Hunting license/tag fees....maybe You don't know it, but most of us on here see through Your poorly disguised "I was just joking" threads....You will now be one of the few that I've ever used the "Ignore" button on...Buh-Buy!.........Jim


1. You can have any bow made in a 25lb draw. 2. As I have said before - I don' expect a rule change and have never asked for one - I simply said it bugs me when guys show up at an outdoor 3D shoot by the International BOWHUNTING Organization with bows that they OBVIOUSLY do not use for hunting - there is a difference in expressing that something bugs you and wanting to change rules or stop people from doing it.

There are many uses of the freedom of speech that bug me - but I would not forbid someone from having that freedom. There are many religions tha bug me and I think are absurd - but I would never dream of preventing someone from believing and practicing whatever religion that they want.

Oh - an regarding the idea that you seem to think I am complaining about someone having an equipment advantage at the IBO shoots - I have never ever claimed that I finished where I did due to equpiment advatages that the guys who scored better than me had - the guys that scored better than me were and likely still are better archers than me - plain and simple as that.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Would be interesting if IBO had a 'heavy weight' class. I don't know if it's a good idea, but it would be interesting.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Would be interesting if IBO had a 'heavy weight' class. I don't know if it's a good idea, but it would be interesting.


Barney, are you talking about a "heavy weight " class or a "heavy" weight class?:teeth:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Barney, are you talking about a "heavy weight " class or a "heavy" weight class?:teeth:


LOL...I think I could qualify for both :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

I consider myself an archer .... as was my father ..... and my grandfather.

Once a year I string up a 160 year old bow and shoot in the worlds oldest recorded sporting event, dating back to 1673 

I consider that traditional


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Barney, IBO had a Hunter Heavy Weight which had a minimum poundage of 60...there wasn't but a few people shot the class...I think this last year it was about 9 or so...the IBO decided there wasn't enough interest so that class was canned...those shooters will now have to shoot with the rest of us Recurve shooters.


Dewayne


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> Would be interesting if IBO had a 'heavy weight' class. I don't know if it's a good idea, but it would be interesting.


Don't know about that, but I plan on shooting in the IBO Longbow class with around 55 to 60#'s. I know most target guys seem to shoot around 35-45#'s but I just don't like the light weight bows, and don't seem to shoot them as well. Plus I like to hurl heavy arrows flat and fast. At this point, I prefer to target shoot with the same set up I hunt with. Only thing new to me will be tuning up some wood arrows.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Urban - I am a firm believer that if you are a bowhunter - just shoot with the same set up you would for hunting - and whatever class that puts you in - so be it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Dewayne - 9 shooters is not that bad - there are many events that have less than 9 trad shooters in certain classes - many ASA, NFAA, FITA, and state championships have far less than 9 in a given class - Personally - even though I don't shoot in the class - I think they should have left it in - they leave the women classes and they are around the same number - if it is only about numbers then do we can them too? That was one class that really was about bowhunting equipment without any doubt.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

i'm for anything that promotes "and preserves" this sport/activity/lifestyle/artform we loosly refer to as trad...and fwiw?...i think doing away with the "heavy bow class" is actually a good thing cause first off?..i bet we lose quite a few to wore out shoulders and that in turn equates to "bad press"..as others who may be entertaining thoughts or aspirations of shooting trad begin to realize that most of the great ones wound up falling to shoulder injuries or sustaining multiple microscopic surgeries and that's probably not a real appealing aspect...not that using heavy weight bows for hunting is a bad thing but...in moderation...and it seems the words "competitive" and "moderation" just don't gel together real well..especially for those obsessed with "winning"...cause next thing ya know?..Charlie Sheen is showing up in scrubs telling bad jokes. :laugh:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I agree of all the classes I think the HHW was truly about shooting hunting weight bows....ASA always has about 15-25 shooters but they lump every shooter without wheels into the trad class..men women and children all shoot the same class which is part of the low turnout.

The women classes will always be much lower than men's but what do you do?? I think IBO was looking for a way to cut out some classes and buckles...I personally think if you're shooting a recurve off the shelf then shoot against the recurve shooters off the shelf...who knows they might bring it back but they did away with women's RU at the Trad Worlds too...


Dewayne


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Urban - I am a firm believer that if you are a bowhunter - just shoot with the same set up you would for hunting - and whatever class that puts you in - so be it.


I agree, except for the arrow option. Can't shoot carbons in the Longbow Class, and not fond of moving up to TRAD Class and competing against ILF set ups. So, I'll shoot some wood. I like heavy arrows anyway and wooden arrows will make me even more traditional, LOL! Actually I kind of like the feel of the Longbow Class. The IBO is fairly lenient on its definition of a longbow, they don't get all technical with center cut, R/D etc... So pretty much any longbow with wooden arrows can shoot LB division. And apparently not alot of LB shooters, from what I have researched, except at Trad Worlds when they come in from all over the place.


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## Archerbear (Jan 2, 2013)

I have a serious fire for traditional archery. I don't hunt. And since I live in 2013 I don't take a bow to any battlefield. I shoot traditional as a student of ancient history. If all a potential archer wanted to achieve was utilitarian in nature he'd put his bow down and go to the supermarket right? I don't have to learn to shoot a bow in order to eat meat.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Yewselfbow said:


> I consider myself an archer .... as was my father ..... and my grandfather.
> 
> *Once a year I string up a 160 year old bow and shoot in the worlds oldest recorded sporting event, dating back to 1673*
> 
> I consider that traditional


Now this peaked my interest...can you explain a little more? What event? What is the bow like and aren't you afraid it will break?

Sounds cool, how about some details...:archer:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

There's no problem competing with the ILF bows being shot off the shelf..I compete with them all the time in IBO and ASA...you've got to execute the shot no matter what bow you have in your hand!!!


Dewayne


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

> Now this peaked my interest...can you explain a little more? What event? What is the bow like and aren't you afraid it will break?
> 
> Sounds cool, how about some details...


Here's a link to some of my bows I was asked to post on the LW and a link to the Scorton arrow webpage

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=244515&category=88#3346638

http://www.scortonarrow.com/


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> There's no problem competing with the ILF bows being shot off the shelf..I compete with them all the time in IBO and ASA.


:thumbs_up

How the limbs attach to the riser doesn't really increase an archer's accuracy potential. It's how an ILF is typically set-up for competition that gives it it's slight advantage when elevated rests, cushion plungers, metal risers, light draw weight Olympic grade limbs, etc. etc. Even when they are all decked out without sights...I still don't feel like there's really a large enough advantage under typical 3D distances. IMO...they may have a 5% advantage at the very most. 

In 3D...I personally prefer to compete against other archers with their hunting equipment. If they honestly hunt with what they show up with...I'm cool with it :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Yewselfbow said:


> Here's a link to some of my bows I was asked to post on the LW and a link to the Scorton arrow webpage
> 
> http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=244515&category=88#3346638
> 
> http://www.scortonarrow.com/


Wow! Not sure what else to say. 

Your bows are fantastic, the shoot is incredible...thanks for sharing the links.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sharp has claimed that hunting can not be considered a game and I've asked him a couple of times...IF that's true...than why has the term 'game' been used to describe the animals we hunt? Big Game, Small Game, etc. etc.???

Can anyone explain that?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Yewselfbow said:


> Here's a link to some of my bows I was asked to post on the LW and a link to the Scorton arrow webpage
> 
> http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=244515&category=88#3346638
> 
> http://www.scortonarrow.com/


I agree with Easykeeper :thumbs_up

TOTALLY COOL...and VERY Traditional if I may add :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> How the limbs attach to the riser doesn't really increase an archer's accuracy potential. It's how an ILF is typically set-up for competition that gives it it's slight advantage when elevated rests, cushion plungers, metal risers, light draw weight Olympic grade limbs, etc. etc. Even when they are all decked out without sights...I still don't feel like there's really a large enough advantage under typical 3D distances. IMO...they may have a 5% advantage at the very most.
> 
> ...


Ray for IBO trad or REC class you have to shoot off the shelf so the only "advantage" an ILF bow would have is tiller adjustment. Now you put said ILF bow in John Demmers or Jim Powells hands and it has lots of advantages those guys can flat out shoot. But it ain't the bow. 

Matt


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Yewselfbow said:


> Here's a link to some of my bows I was asked to post on the LW and a link to the Scorton arrow webpage
> 
> http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=244515&category=88#3346638
> 
> http://www.scortonarrow.com/


Cool stuff there, Tnx for sharing


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> But it ain't the bow.


At some level...it is. The more machine-like (consistent) an archer is...the less any equipment advantage will become apparent.

Most equipment advantages are due to decreasing the element of human error...and if a bow is in the hands of some person...there will be human error. Some of us just don't screw up as much as others :wink:

A bow won't turn a poor archer into a good one...but some equipment choices can reduce the effects of some small errors an archer can make during the shot process. 

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> At some level...it is. The more machine-like (consistent) an archer is...the less any equipment advantage will become apparent.
> 
> Most equipment advantages are due to decreasing the element of human error...and if a bow is in the hands of some person...there will be human error. Some of us just don't screw up as much as others :wink:
> 
> ...


Raised rest and plunger - yes that is an advantage but you can't use them in trad class or REC so it is a moot point.

2 two bows shot off the shelf one ILF one not - no difference at all. Any adjustments you make to tiller can be made by adjusting nock hight. 

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> 2 two bows shot off the shelf one ILF one not - no difference at all. Any adjustments you make to tiller can be made by adjusting nock hight.


:thumbs_up

That's pretty much exactly what I said in post 153 :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Easykeeper said:


> Wow! Not sure what else to say.
> 
> Your bows are fantastic, the shoot is incredible...thanks for sharing the links.


Thank you ..it pretty much represents my definition of traditional archery


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## Live In a Park (Apr 1, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Traditionally, archery had two primary purposes: A weapon of war, and a weapon of the hunt.
> 
> Traditionally target archery was only to make the archer a better warrior or hunter.
> 
> ...



Is 1545 traditional enough: "My mind is, in profiting and pleasing every man, to hurt or displease no man, intending none other purpose, but that youth might be stirred to labour, honest pastime, and virtue, and as much as lieth in me, plucked from idleness, unthrifty games, and vice : which thing I have laboured only in this book, showing how fit shooting is for all kinds of men ; how honest a pastime for the mind; how wholesome an exercise for the body ; not vile for great men to use, not costly for poor men to sustain, not lurking in holes and corners for ill men at their pleasure to misuse it, but abiding in the open sight and face of the world, for good men, if it fault, by their wisdom to correct it." _Toxophilus_ by Roger Ascham

All that aside, it seems to me that there is a "style" implied and the full name would be "Traditional-style Archery." English is funny that way.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

good quote - and I cannot argue with that


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## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

cbrunson said:


> I shoot mine to prepare for war.


Thats great! Made me really laugh outloud


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## Turfthunder (Mar 22, 2018)

While I myself have never gone bowhunting, I have nothing against it (I hope to bowhunt one day). Target archery (I myself am strictly barebow) has its own unique challenges that I believe can test any archers' mettle. I've been preparing for the upcoming Vegas Shoot (open barebow) next February and I can say here and now that in relation to all the things you must put together for great shot after great shot. focus and discipline are just the tip of the iceberg.


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## poosu (Jan 3, 2020)

Thanks to turfthunder for finding and reviving this old post. Most enjoyable reading I've had for a while


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