# Should I give up on Hoyt??



## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Im in a conundrum....a couple weeks ago I purchased a C4 with eer minimax cams...When I received it the DL was perfect so I installed a sight and my stabilizer system that I took off my VE/spirals DL 27 1/2...when I took my first shots with the C4 I noticed that the bow would hold on the spot and never move...my VE and VP always move...left,right, up, down...I could just never get them to hold on the spot solidly...I know Ive only had the C4 a few weeks but I am shooting some of the best scores that I have shot since Ive started back in spot shooting...Today I measured the C4 from the throat of the grip to the string at full draw and measured the poundage (54)..I took my VE and set it to the exact same measurments...timed the spirals with the bottom cam a little ahead of the top cam..put the same rest on and stabilizer system off the C4 and it still doesnt hold for crap...should I just dump the spirals and go back to cam 1/2 + or get rid of the Hoyt all together and pick up another C4 with minimax cams...The last time I shot as good as I am with the C4 I was in my 30's and had a national and many State championships to my credit shooting PSE's and Hoyts with round wheels...

Keep the bashing to yourselfs...I just want some honest opinions....If it is just a matter of tuning someone tell me how...I have all the bells and whistles to run a little shop...been in archery for about 50 yrs...


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

If the C4 is working for you keep with it,
However as for the setups not working...
The setup that works on your C4 will not always work with any other bow. The ATA, brace height, cam style, riser geometry etc are all different. Hence why the exact same setup off your c4 isn't working. Try playing with the DL and the weight on the stabilizers. To me it sounds like you need to take a few twists out and put some more weight on your stabilizers. Now I am no expert but those are my observations.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

so your telling me that the same dl on both bows may not be right??? I can understand the cam styles but I would think that having the exact same dl on both bow would be a plus....my body should have the exact same alignment at full draw no matter which bow I pick up and draw....I cant see how the angle of the string could effect how the bow holds....now cam timing and cam style I can understand...If I take all the stabilizers off of both bows and just put a sight on the C4 still holds better and the VE moves all over..


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

Definately sounds like drawlength to me, how are you measuring the DL?


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## outback jack (Aug 12, 2006)

I did the exact same thing last year, got a good deal on a C4 from a buddy and tried it fro a while. I really liked it for some time but after a while there was just something I didn't like about it and stayed with my hoyt's. It held good for me too but the more I shot it the more I didn't like it, so just got rid of it and got me a vantage elite.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

x-hunta said:


> Definately sounds like drawlength to me, how are you measuring the DL?


I take a 3ft precision metal ruler and measure from the throat of the grip to the string at full draw.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Im really thinking that it must be in the timing of the Spirals....Ive played with advancing and ******ing the cams a few times since Ive had the hoyts and adding and removing weight both from the front bar and the rear bar and I do find that it makes a difference on how it holds on the spot...I guess I just cant find that sweet spot that everyone talks about...I shot better scores with my apex'es and apex 7's than I ever shot with my hoyts...I just didnt like the grip on the apex cuz my hand would slide up over the shelf at times and I didnt like the draw cycle on the apex 7 but I did shoot my best outdoor scores with that bow...even set a state record in the "old farts division" with it..I did find that I never had a problem with my grip position on the Hoyts tho...I just could'nt hold steady on the spot for long...


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

I've heard different opinions on this, but isn't the general consensus that having the TOP cam slightly advanced helps with holding? Also, I think there are a LOT of variables in things. Just because the DL is the same, and you moved the stabs from one bow to the other, it doesnt mean that is the optimum setup for both bows. Each bow will balance differently, have a different feeling wall, different grip, wrist angle, etc etc... The only way to give each bow a fair chance would be to forget about what works on the C4 and start from scratch on the VE.. experiment with weights, side bar angles, holding weights, draw lengths, etc etc.. then compare the best groups/holding from each bow. Also, if you have convinced yourself that the C4 is going to hold better, it probably will. I know for me, mental is a BIG part of the game. This all being said, if you like the C4 better, and you shoot it better, then great. Keep it and you won't have a problem finding somebody to buy the VE. We won't hold it against you if you shoot a Mathews... just might think you are slightly weird!


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

Paul Payne said:


> I take a 3ft precision metal ruler and measure from the throat of the grip to the string at full draw.


It could be the feel of the grip, depends how your wrist lays in. High wrist vs low wrist could make a difference. I'd say try goofing with the DL and if not stick with the C4 since you seem to like it so much.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

I went from a bowtech commander to Hoyt PE , UE I held that bowtech 100x better on the spot then I can the hoyts I haven't tied my high score with my hoyt . Im was also thinking on trying a mathews.


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

forget about the sticker on the side of the bow and shoot what works for you!


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

No two bows will need the exact same draw length. You get them close and then fine tune to fit. I set a bow to 27.75" and then shoot it and make the needed adjustments. 

No two bows unless they are the exact same bow model will always be able to use the same side rod angles and weight to achieve the same thing. Even more so when going from a VE to a C4. 

If the VE isn't holding right or good for you play with your dl and your side rod angle and weight on the rods. 

But it could just be that the Mathews fits you better. Don't think about it or debate it. Shoot the one you shoot best and be done with it. 


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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

It just torque's me off that I cant get the Hoyts to hold like I think they should...All my life I have been a supream tinkerer...I can fix about anything...just cant seem to fix this....guess I spend to much time shooting with my hoyts and not enough time with the bows in the press adjusting and tweaking...I really dont care what the logo on the bow says I just shoot them..I know they all have slight differences that's why we have so many choises...I guess I just cant get over the fact that the first time I drew the C4 it fit me like a glove, never had to tweak a thing, and a high majority of my 2315's go inside out in the spot cuz I can finally hold steady like I think I should... my CE27's dont shoot worth a fart out of it tho...I'm looking forward to shooting the C4 this winter indoors but I'm not going to give up yet on my hoyts...guess I'll be spending some time this fall tweeking and looking for the "sweet spot"


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

I think your worrying about something out of your control to a point. Yes playing with your dl and getting the stab weights and balance right will help. But it doesn't mean that the bow will hold as well for you as your C4 does. 

Nothing that I have shot Mathews, Martin or PSE holds as well for me as the Hoyts that I have had. But the PEs and UEs didn't hold as well as what I shoot now. That's why I sold the others and shoot what I do. 






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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jimrau (Dec 27, 2006)

Have your measured the vertical distance from the throat of the grip to the burger hole. I do better with the bows with the smaller distance. The ones that have a tall distance from the throat of the grip to the burger hole tend to fall out the bottom when I hold too long. I think it is a geometry thing and the height of my bow sholder. I too love the C4 for the same reason(s) your're stating. I believe the C4 is a bit lighter so I can add the weitht where I want it. It was a real PITA to get the DL right though on this one. I was aiming at 28 1/4" and ended up with a 29" cam in the #2 position. Now it draws the same as my Prestige with the 28" cam. I shoot both of these bows better than the Apex I used to have. Shoot what works for you. And isn't it fun playing with these things.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I had a C-4 and it was a delight to shoot. just didn't have the right cam on it, really spongy, so I let it go. I was about to throw my Alpha Elite in the dumpster till I got the stabilizer weights right and now it holds like a rock.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

golfingguy27 said:


> I've heard different opinions on this, but isn't the general consensus that having the TOP cam slightly advanced helps with holding? Also, I think there are a LOT of variables in things. Just because the DL is the same, and you moved the stabs from one bow to the other, it doesnt mean that is the optimum setup for both bows. Each bow will balance differently, have a different feeling wall, different grip, wrist angle, etc etc... The only way to give each bow a fair chance would be to forget about what works on the C4 and start from scratch on the VE.. experiment with weights, side bar angles, holding weights, draw lengths, etc etc.. then compare the best groups/holding from each bow. Also, if you have convinced yourself that the C4 is going to hold better, it probably will. I know for me, mental is a BIG part of the game. This all being said, if you like the C4 better, and you shoot it better, then great. Keep it and you won't have a problem finding somebody to buy the VE. We won't hold it against you if you shoot a Mathews... just might think you are slightly weird!


I agree. Cam position on spirals should be the top cam advanced a little more than the bottom. DB hit the nail on the head also on the set up. Different risers makes a huge difference on how stabs should be set up on the bow. You have to play with front and back stab length and weights to get it to aim the way you want.
Jame


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Thanks for all the advise guys...Ive got all winter to play with my Hoyts..you may have hit on something I havnt thougt of jimrau...Im sure its a physics thing I'll just have to put some time behind the pulleys and figure it out..


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Set your top cam up to hit first, then put about a 1/4" tiller in your top limb. Will more then likely have to change your loop/nock set, but should help you out. ALL my Hoyt's I had to do this to get them to work decent. Most of the time, my bottom limb was bottomed out, and about 1/4" of thread showing on the top limb bolt. My solution...I bought an Elite Tour, and it shoots better then my VE ever shot indoors, and have better outdoor scores in the first 3 months of owning it, including a 560 field/hunter round.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

archerpap said:


> Set your top cam up to hit first, then put about a 1/4" tiller in your top limb. Will more then likely have to change your loop/nock set, but should help you out. ALL my Hoyt's I had to do this to get them to work decent. Most of the time, my bottom limb was bottomed out, and about 1/4" of thread showing on the top limb bolt. My solution...I bought an Elite Tour, and it shoots better then my VE ever shot indoors, and have better outdoor scores in the first 3 months of owning it, including a 560 field/hunter round.


Thanks Bob...I'll try that...I know 30 yrs ago I was always playing with Tiller on my bows..


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

I do the same with all my hoyts, except I will take a 1/4 turn out of the opposite limb to keep the same weight. Can't remember off the top of my head if I add to the bottom or top limb. Most bows I've had seem to have a little too much pressure at the top of the grip. This will even out the pressure and help w/ holding. For parallel limb bows, I only adjust maybe an 1/8th of a turn being one complete turn is typically 4 lbs/turn vs. 2 lbs/turn. This isn't tiller tuning, even though you will have to check your timing and nock point. You are adjusting the angle of the riser by tweaking the limb weight. 



archerpap said:


> Set your top cam up to hit first, then put about a 1/4" tiller in your top limb. Will more then likely have to change your loop/nock set, but should help you out. ALL my Hoyt's I had to do this to get them to work decent. Most of the time, my bottom limb was bottomed out, and about 1/4" of thread showing on the top limb bolt. My solution...I bought an Elite Tour, and it shoots better then my VE ever shot indoors, and have better outdoor scores in the first 3 months of owning it, including a 560 field/hunter round.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Paul, like UT00 said and I forgot, you will have to regime your now after getting the tiller set up where you like it best. Just shoot it a little while, then retime your bow with the top cam hitting first.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Just found the article I always refer to, written by a hoyt pro shooter a while back. Too much top pressure on your grip, add weight to the bottom limb and subtract the same from top. Vice versa if there's too much bottom pressure. I have yet to experience the latter. A lot depends on the person's natural grip and how it mates with the riser.

I didn't know about this until reading the article. Decided to try it on my ultratec at the time and definitely was a factor that allowed me to make the jump into AA class for field. It helped me hold that much steadier.



archerpap said:


> Paul, like UT00 said and I forgot, you will have to regime your now after getting the tiller set up where you like it best. Just shoot it a little while, then retime your bow with the top cam hitting first.


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Paul--back 30yrs ago the bows had no stops--but held well---they did have a smooth valley
I've shot best with my Hoyts but I won't shoot the spirals---I would change to something with a valley that you can relax in to setup the shot---field makes a long day and holding isn't needed 'til you are on the spot---so why have the pressure of execution present when you are trying to setup your form and still not located the target---
maybe it's just me but I won't shoot a cam w/o a nice valley to ease into the tension of the shot---and mostly it's about enjoying my shooting, or why bother
If you're not having fun shooting---FIX IT---and I'm afraid you can't just buy it any more---
If I had a bow that I enjoyed more I'd shoot it

Cec


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Thks everyone for the advise...and Cecil I do have a set of Cam 1/2+ that I can put back on my Hoyt but they may wait for next spring before I go back outdoors...then I will take all the tips and tricks you all gave me and set up my Vantage Pro...I think this winter is going to be spent shoot great scores with my C4..


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

ultratec00 said:


> Just found the article I always refer to, written by a hoyt pro shooter a while back. Too much top pressure on your grip, add weight to the bottom limb and subtract the same from top. Vice versa if there's too much bottom pressure. I have yet to experience the latter. A lot depends on the person's natural grip and how it mates with the riser.I didn't know about this until reading the article. Decided to try it on my ultratec at the time and definitely was a factor that allowed me to make the jump into AA class for field. It helped me hold that much steadier.


Not surprisingly to me, I apparently am the freak on this one. I did some playing with tiller this morning after reading this conversation, and I actually shot best with about a half turn IN the top limb. I have always felt more pressure in the bottom of my grip, this evened it out and my groups got a little tighter.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

I've had two Hoyts, a Peo Elite and an Ultra tec that had 3000 limbs on them and both didn't hold well. Switched the UT back to 2000s and it was rock steady. Sold the Pro Elite. Shooting a Contender Elite now with C.5+, 29.5 DL and 2000 limbs. Holds great.
Joe B.



Paul Payne said:


> Im in a conundrum....a couple weeks ago I purchased a C4 with eer minimax cams...When I received it the DL was perfect so I installed a sight and my stabilizer system that I took off my VE/spirals DL 27 1/2...when I took my first shots with the C4 I noticed that the bow would hold on the spot and never move...my VE and VP always move...left,right, up, down...I could just never get them to hold on the spot solidly...I know Ive only had the C4 a few weeks but I am shooting some of the best scores that I have shot since Ive started back in spot shooting...Today I measured the C4 from the throat of the grip to the string at full draw and measured the poundage (54)..I took my VE and set it to the exact same measurments...timed the spirals with the bottom cam a little ahead of the top cam..put the same rest on and stabilizer system off the C4 and it still doesnt hold for crap...should I just dump the spirals and go back to cam 1/2 + or get rid of the Hoyt all together and pick up another C4 with minimax cams...The last time I shot as good as I am with the C4 I was in my 30's and had a national and many State championships to my credit shooting PSE's and Hoyts with round wheels...
> 
> Keep the bashing to yourselfs...I just want some honest opinions....If it is just a matter of tuning someone tell me how...I have all the bells and whistles to run a little shop...been in archery for about 50 yrs...


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

zenarch said:


> I've had two Hoyts, a Peo Elite and an Ultra tec that had 3000 limbs on them and both didn't hold well. Switched the UT back to 2000s and it was rock steady. Sold the Pro Elite. Shooting a Contender Elite now with C.5+, 29.5 DL and 2000 limbs. Holds great.
> Joe B.


 I'll follow suit with Joe. I just got a 2011 CE with GTX cams and 2000 limbs off the classifieds here on AT. Finally had a day off today and Took me about thirty minutes to get the DL right, Center shot, timing set. It holds so well and shoot so damn smooth and forgiving it makes my Alpha E look pretty bad......


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

to the OP, the only one that can make that call is YOU.

if you can shoot one bow 'brainless', then stick with it. no sense in fighting a battle you cant win.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Well after all the help on here which I greatly appreciate ( I love AT) I have made my decision....I went in the back yard this evening and shot the Vegas face at 20yrds with my C4...yesterday and the day before I shot 298's and didnt keep track of the x's .. well today I shot a 299 with 18x's(I can just feel that 300 in the near future) shooting 2315's with 230 gr spotshooter points..I havnt shot that good since I stood on the line next to Terry Ragsdale at the old Ann Marston Tournament in the early 80's...of course he was shooting the pro line and I was top in the flights..it was the year before I turned pro...well I didnt drop any spots for the two days and he dropped one...Today I feel like a kid again...I went on today to shoot another 5 ends and ended up with a 449 25x..Now if I can just find someone on AT that wants to trade a C4 with minimax cams for a slightly used 2009 Vantage Pro with 2.5 spirals...


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