# Does ‘building pressure’ work, and if so, why?



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

There is a good reason why most target archers shoot low let off/higher holding weight set ups. Everyone will have a range that works best for them and you need to build up to the higher holding weight. It is a balancing act of not enough or too much and will coincide with the mass weight of the bow.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

hrtlnd164 - you are a dreadful tease!! You start with, "there is a good reason" and then don't tell me what the reason is! 

Just to be clear though, this isn't just about holding weight. I am talking aboput building pressure beyond what is needed for holding - although I think your observation that top level target archers tend to start with lower let-off higher holding weight is right. And I also think you are right it has something to do with mass weight of the bow. But I am trying to figure out exactly why there is that sense that additional pressure helps the quality of the hold, at least up to a point.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Just hold your 8# bow out in front of you using only the bow arm…It gets heavy quick. Pulling pressure from the back side reduces the amount of weight the front side is holding up, a balanced system. The heavier the bow, the more pulling pressure the back side needs to balance the system. The lighter the holding weight will not force the back side to help the front side.


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## Aber Archery (6 mo ago)

Does building pressure affect your POI? Considering your possibly pulling the string farther minutely, with a cable stop anyways.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

malcolmbarr said:


> This may be a bit esoteric, but I cant resist asking this question anyway.
> 
> So at full draw and assessing the hold on the target. I find that, often (although not always), I can ‘improve’ my pin float by building pressure in the bow before by I begin the procedure to fire the release. By ‘improve‘ I mean (a) better control of where the float is centralised and (b) less float, sometimes even giving that beloved few seconds of a near stationary pin right on the X.
> 
> ...


It can help, though mainly for purely geometric/mechanical reasons. Meaning, If your alignment is good, this additional pressure helps to counteract the mass weight of the bow pulling the bow arm down, which can reduce the struggle a little bit if your bow is too heavy.

But the more likely reason is you're activating the smaller stabilization muscles in a semi-non-cognitive way and that's reducing the float a little bit just through sheer stiffness in the bow arm created by the extra tension of those little muscles.

Don't ask me why I know all that.

A better way to do this, IME, is an idea from Jake Kaminsky, which is to think about "movements not muscles". This is based on the observation that our brains are designed to deal with our environment through the concept of specific movements we need to make to accomplish something. It's not designed to identify specific muscles consciously and activate them, etc.

So, Instead of "increase tension in the back" and "activate tricep muscles in the bow arm", you might try replacing that with a specific movement that accomplishes your goal. What I use is also a Jake Kaminsky suggestion: "push the handle of the bow directly into the X" in the final part of the shot. Not "push the bow towards the target", but a more precisely targeted movement of pushing it exactly into the center of the X.

I have found that that greatly improved my float and hold on the target. This tricks the brain into using the correct muscles in the correct way to keep my sight ring as centered on the target as possible.

I think you're on the right track, but you might investigate this particular idea and see if it helps. I found it work really well for me...

lee.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

I shoot with quite a lot of weight on the bow, so maybe the idea that the increased pressure is taking weight off the bow arm makes sense. But my bow arm has never felt like it is holding the mass weight that is causing a looser pin float, which is why the weight is there in the first place!

Does activating the smaller muscles, stiffening the bow arm, actually reduce pin float? Maybe what I am seeing is just the impact of doing so for a short period but one which can’t be sustained.

Thanks Lee for the Kaminski suggestion. I know what you mean by thinking about movements not muscles. However I have practised this enough that my brain seems to know what tighten back or tighten tricep means when I try to do it!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> In my case, I tend to think of (a) trying to activate the tricep on my bow arm to extend my reach toward the target,


Stop thinking. You do not extend the bow arm with the tricep. Wrong muscle group.
You do NOT want to tense up the tricep in the bow arm.

You DO want to align the bow arm in line with the collar bones.



Right side sketch is most stable alignment for bow arm in relation to the shoulders.
Right side sketch requires LEAST involvement of the bow arm muscles.

RELAX the upper trapezius muscles, to drop the collar bones down...do not SHRUG shoulders up...keep collar bones down.

The middle trapezius will lift the upper arm to final shooting height.
The lateral deltoid will also lift the upper arm to final shooting height.

The middle trapezius will retract the shoulder blade towards the backbone.
The lower trapezius will depress the shoulder blade (swing the shoulder blade DOWN in an arc).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> hrtlnd164 - you are a dreadful tease!! You start with, "there is a good reason" and then don't tell me what the reason is!
> 
> Just to be clear though, this isn't just about holding weight. I am talking aboput building pressure beyond what is needed for holding - although I think your observation that top level target archers tend to start with lower let-off higher holding weight is right. And I also think you are right it has something to do with mass weight of the bow. But I am trying to figure out exactly why there is that sense that additional pressure helps the quality of the hold, at least up to a point.


60 lb draw weight bow with 90% letoff means when you FIRST reach the wall of the bow, you are HOLDING 6 lbs.
60 lb draw weight bow with 60% letoff means when you FIRST reach the wall of the bow, you are HOLDING 24 lbs.

BIG, massive difference.

So, if I use a resistance release and set the resistance release to fire at 27 lbs of pressure (pulling force)
the 90% letoff bow means I WAY WAY WAY over-rotate the cams, pulling 21 lbs PAST holding weight.
SUPER bad idea. Will not get level nock travel. Not even close.

So, if I use a resistance release and set the resistance release to fire at 27 lbs of pressure (pulling force)
the 60% letoff bow means I only pull 3 lbs HEAVIER than holding weight.
SUPER GOOD idea. Will get DEAD level nock travel. Clean, crisp release. Nice followthrough.

Pulling a 90% letoff bow at 21 lbs MORE than holding weight will never work. Firing at 27 lbs pulling tension.
Pulling a 60% letoff bow at 3 lbs MORE than holding weight, will always work. Firing at 27 lbs pulling tension.

When I am shooting my 60% letoff bow, with 24 lbs holding weight, where I fire the release (release is set) at 27 lbs firing pressure, that means I am pulling "with my elbow) with 27 lbs of FORCE pulling straight back.

THAT means, the bow arm and my core is PUSHING forwards, pushing the riser, pushing the front stabilizer
with 27 lbs of RESISTING force into the x-ring. SUPER stable.

Cuz I have my BONES, my bow arm, my collar bones, my shoulder blades all in alignment.
A system in HIGH tension (27 lbs firing pressure) is much more stable
than a system in LOW tension (3 lbs more than 6 lbs holding weight, is a 9 lb system in tension).


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Aber Archery said:


> Does building pressure affect your POI? Considering your possibly pulling the string farther minutely, with a cable stop anyways.


I don’t think so if your bow has a hard back wall, like the Invicta SVX in my case.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Nuts and bolts - thanks for the long and detailed reply.

Activating the tricep is a Dave Cousins thing. I know you tend to advocate shooting with a passive bow arm. I tend to shoot with a lot of weight on the bow and find activating the tricep doesn’t just build pressure but helps guard against the bow ‘dipping’ while I am working through the release.

As for your recommendations on alignment, all good and understood.

I think the key is your statement that a system under pressure is more stable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> I don’t think so if your bow has a hard back wall, like the Invicta SVX in my case.


65% letoff. SVX is a great cam system.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> Nuts and bolts - thanks for the long and detailed reply.
> 
> Activating the tricep is a Dave Cousins thing. I know you tend to advocate shooting with a passive bow arm. I tend to shoot with a lot of weight on the bow and find activating the tricep doesn’t just build pressure but helps guard against the bow ‘dipping’ while I am working through the release.
> 
> ...


The bicep bends the bow arm, like a bicep curl.
The tricep extends the bow arm, or un-bends the elbow, the tricep straightens out the bow arm, if the elbow is bent.

So, "un-bending" the elbow with the tricep does zero to prevent the bow arm from dipping.
If the bow arm is dipping down out of the x-ring,
the middle trapezius is the muscle that lifts the upper arm back to shooting height, the middle trapezius and middle deltoid are what you use to bring the pin back into the x-ring, if you are suffering a dip bang out the bottom of the x-ring.

If you are internally rotating the upper arm bone
(if left upper arm = bow arm, trying to rotate the left upper arm clockwise)
while at full draw, then, the internal rotation of the upper arm is controlled by the subscapularis muscle, not the tricep.

Bicep bends the elbow to swing the forearm up (bicep curl).
Tricep un-bends the elbow to swing the forearm down (relax or down phase for bicep curl).

The ability to abduct (swing the bow arm up to guard against "dipping")
the arm is a crucial contributor to the full range of motion of the arm. Four different muscles control this action: supraspinatus, deltoid, trapezius, and serratus anterior. The supraspinatus is the primary muscle for the abduction of the arm to 15 degrees from the arm hanging down at your sides starting position.

The middle deltoid controls abduction from 15 to 90 degrees. The middle trapezius and serratus anterior coordinate with each other and the scapula (shoulder blade) to facilitate abduction of the arm upwards of 90 degrees.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

You state the tricep does zero to prevent dipping. I think that might be going a bit too far. Extending the bow arm via the tricep creates more pressure, and more pressure is more stable as per your prior comment. Unless the increment to stability is asymmetric the tricep tension must make some contribution to avoidance of dips.

Before I go and look up the subscapularis, is there a movement or thought that can help to ensure that muscle is engaged?


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

malcolmbarr said:


> You state the tricep does zero to prevent dipping. I think that might be going a bit too far. Extending the bow arm via the tricep creates more pressure, and more pressure is more stable as per your prior comment. Unless the increment to stability is asymmetric the tricep tension must make some contribution to avoidance of dips.
> 
> Before I go and look up the subscapularis and other muscles, is there a movement or thought that can help to ensure that group of muscles responsible for elevating the bow arm is engaged?


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

nuts&bolts - just a quick aside, it really is a thrill for me to be chatting with you here, as I would put you in my top three sources of how I think about archery and where I look for for advice I trust. Your ‘nuts&bolts of archery’ pdf is just a great resource. So thank you for the time you have put into helping people here which many, myself included, have benefited from.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, like lees says...Jake Kaminsky suggests to focus on movement of joints, movement of body parts.






Take a video of you shooting your bow. Get the camera phone lens up to arrow height on a tripod or stack of boxes
so the camera phone is far away enough to see the ground, see your shoes and all of you and all of the bow.

This is a GIF of a series of freeze frames taken from a video, years ago. There are multiple things to notice.

Look at his cap. His cap is motionless throughout the follow through after the shot. This means his body is in perfect balance. This means the PUSH or PRESSURE thru the bow arm half of his body, is in perfect balance with the PULL thru the release hand of his body. Zero recoil in his head/neck. So, he built a perfect balance of "pressure" on the forward half and the rear half of his body.

If he was pushing the bow arm half with TOO much pressure, you would see his head/neck jerk FORWARDS after the arrow is released.

If he was PULLING the release arm with TOO much pressure, you would see his head/neck jerk BACKWARDS after the arrow is released.

Test yourself, with your camera phone set to video and see if you can do this.

NOTE. If you lean backwards, your head will jerk backwards after every shot.
NOTE. If your bow shoulder is HIGHER than release shoulder, your head will jerk backwards after the shot.
NOTE. If the rib cage is LESS than 90 degrees to bow arm (any arrow angle..level, uphill, downhill), head jerks back.

NOTE. If release elbow is too high, your head/neck will jerk forwards, cuz leverage angle is no good (not enough back tension).

NOTE. If release elbow is too low, your head/neck will wobble, cuz leverage angle is also no good (not enough back tension).


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

So this is me shooting three shots at 50m this afternoon. Interested to hear what nuts and bolts has to say - employed a build of pressure to settle the hold on all three shots.









2022-08-16 17-55-50.mp4







drive.google.com





Hope the link to the video works!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> So this is me shooting three shots at 50m this afternoon. Interested to hear what nuts and bolts has to say - employed a build of pressure to settle the hold on all three shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Center of gravity is wrong, fore-aft...or sub-optimal.










Red arrow is positioned at the base of the cervical spine (C7). RED arrow is a vertical line from base of the bottom neck bone (vertebral body).

Yellow arrow is positioned at the base of the lumbar spine. You are allowing the upper 1/3rd of your upper body to swing back onto your heels. Would prefer to shift your weight off the heels, shift weight forwards to the mid foot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Try different shoes, possibly hiking boots where the heel is elevated 1/2-inch or 3/4-inch.
This higher heel will shift weight closer to balls of feet and you will have better fore-aft balance.










Suck in the core muscles, and you will have a much more stable shooting foundation.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

COIL the upper body, TWIST the upper body thru the hips to rotate shoulder blades and collar bones MORE clockwise to get shoulder blades AWAY from parallel to the arrow. This requires activation of the core muscles (suck in the tummy).

Rotating the core (upper half of body) will increase pressure and STRETCH the chest, creating MORE PUSH pressure in the bow arm, and creating more PULL pressure thru the elbow. Hands will move farther apart, as you NARROW the wedge.

So, the release hand slides FORWARDS on your stationary head/neck.
So the RELEASE ELBOW must MUST swing UP HIGHER. Want release elbow to swing ALL the way up to the same height as top of ear.

This creates an ideal LEVERAGE angle between right side upper arm (humerus) and the rib cage.
When right side elbow is TOO LOW (not high enough) you are outside the optimum leverage angle for the right side upper arm. Right side elbow TOO LOW (not high enough) the rhomboid and trapezius muscles cannot activate
to help you hold MUCH more steady and to shoot MUCH tighter groups.

You THINK that engaging the triceps is helping you create "more pressure" cuz you think you read Dave Cousins says so.

So, the back muscles (rhomboid, trapezius, latissimus) are many MANY times larger than the tricep.
SERIOUS. The tricep should not be involved when pulling thru the wall. Read Core Archery by Larry Wise.
He went so far as to connect himself to an EMG (electromyography machine to measure nerve conduction velocity,
to show you in his book, WHAT muscles are REALLY engaged, and WHAT muscles are relaxed, when pulling thru the wall.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

You mean I can't just stick out my gut and use it like a counterweight! I actually have to do something vaguely athletic with my core muscles? What a shame.

Will definitely go and give this a try - on my way to the shoe cupboard now. But I seem to have cunningly distracted you from the pressure issue with my lazy posture....


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Nuts and bolts - not sure I understand, you are saying I should coil to bring my left shoulder closer to the string, and this will make my hands further apart as I narrow the triangle. But that will tend to push the release hand backward, not forward, and lower the rear elbow.

I have actually been trying to work my draw side elbow lower to help avoid the 'dip bangs' but you seem to be suggesting that elbow should actually be higher.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

When you rotate upper body more clockwise,
release hand will slide forwards on your face
and release elbow will need to rise HIGHER...ideally up to the same height as top of ear.

Give this a try. You will create more pressure into the wall of the bow,
your sight picture should get much more stable (pin float shrinks dramatically).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> Nuts and bolts - not sure I understand, you are saying I should coil to bring my left shoulder closer to the string, and this will make my hands further apart as I narrow the triangle. But that will tend to push the release hand backward, not forward, and lower the rear elbow.
> 
> I have actually been trying to work my draw side elbow lower to help avoid the 'dip bangs' but you seem to be suggesting that elbow should actually be higher.


Get into a more narrow stance.
To avoid dip bang, lean FORWARDS slightly, to make bow side armpit closer to 90 degrees.

To avoid dip bang, release shoulder, release side collar bone needs to drop down.
Want tops of shoulders parallel to your arrow. Your release side shoulder is TOO high, and this is mostly why you dip bang.

You have a slight leaning backwards in your spine, and consequently, release side shoulder rises up out of parallel to the arrow, so you get the dip bang.










Create MORE of a wedge shape, when camera is above your head. Turn upper body, TWIST upper body so the bow shoulder swings CLOSER to the arrow. TWIST upper body so the release shoulder swings AWAY from arrow.
Lean IN towards target and push RISER closer to target. When you lean IN to the target
the bow arm will rotate at the shoulder joint and swing the bow arm UP, like a draw bridge to a castle.

Greater STRETCH across the chest, is created when you make the shoulder blades not parallel to the arrow.
MORE pressure on the bow arm pushing riser INTO the target makes the bow arm swing UP and passively fights the dip bang.

GRIV talks about the SCOOP motion, to combat dip bang.






So, a simple EXTEND bow hand away from rib cage, before you swing up to final shooting height,
is how you COMBAT dip bang. Not by lowering release elbow. Not by engaging "tricep". Extend the bow hand before you lift the bow arm. Recurve folks call this the SCOOP motion.

Swing DOWN and away from your rib cage.
SWING out and AWAY from your rib cage when lifting the bow.
PUSH riser INTO the target at full draw.
PULL release elbow into the wall at LEAST 3 lbs more than holding weight.

Rotate rib cage so shoulders are NOT parallel to the arrow. Create a WEDGE.
ALLOW release elbow to swing UP higher.
STRETCH the chest.
SUCK in the gut.

Must BALANCE the pull, the swing down of the release elbow
MUST balance the PULL behind your head of the release elbow
versus
the PUSH the bow hand AWAY from rib cage.

The MORE you push with bow hand
the MORE you WEDGE the shoulder blades/rib cage away from parallel to the arrow
the MORE you pull the release elbow into the wall of the bow...

the more solid you will shoot.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Okay, got it (I think). Lots to work on, thank you very much!!!


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Sorry, another question.

Is the "wedge" shape you suggest above set as part of your stance before you lift the bow? Or do you come into it as you draw?


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

First attempt to do the above. Does this look better? 

Note using a bow with a training device fitted so I can simulate firing without an arrow.









2022-08-17 10-57-32.mp4







drive.google.com


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

How much weight do you have on the bow. Your entire body/ bow looks very unstable. Unless the video is magnifying the amount of movement in your body and bow, something is not working well in your system.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

If you are talking about the very last video, that is an attempt to implement the changes nuts and bolts has suggested, and is really designed to see if I am going in the right direction on the changes he suggested. You are right it doesn't look stable (and it certainly doesnt feel comfortable), but I wouldn't expect it to one a first attempt.

If you want to see a more stable shot see the prior video.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

By the way, so you know I am not making it up, this is Dave Cousins on engaging the tricep, go to 32:21 in the video below:


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

Nuts and bolts - you suggested I look at Core Archery by Larry Wise and his ECG of muscle groups. So I grabbed my copy and did. You are right he doesn't have any significant use of the tricep - in the draw side arm! He doesnt measure any muscle activity in the bow arm because he is only interested in measuring what creates back tension.

I was talking about using the tricep in the bow arm, as per the Cousins video above.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

So I have spent a good hour so with my training compound working in the mirror. Haven 't been able to shoot because it is summer in the UK and, consequently, raining heavily.

Shifit of weight balance toward the balls of my feet, lean forward with upper torso, slightly narrower stance - that part is easy. Possibly feels a bit more stable. It is requiring me to use more muscles than my prior 'lazy stance', in particular those in my lower back that sometimes give me pain from non-archery injuries.

If I 'lean into' the target my weight feels very biased to my front foot. But it does induce additional separation between the bow arm and my rib cage, and feels good as the shot releases.

Clockwise rotation of upper torso is more difficult. I may be overdoing it, but it feels very uncomfortable. I have to rotate my head more relative to my left shoulder, and that increases tension in neck and upper traps. I don't feel much move forward of my anchor position along the jaw even though i am 'extending the chest', nor much build of pressure. I do feel a lot more tension in my rear shoulder. That tension gets worse is if I try to raise the rear elbow. I would not try to shoot an arrow like this because hold is terrible. I am going to have another try and make a smaller adjustment this time around.


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## malcolmbarr (5 mo ago)

The rain has stopped (almost), so here are three shots trying to put nut and bolts suggestions into practise. Note the explicit step of trying to lower the shoulders after the draw, and generate more clockwise torso rotation as I come into anchor.









2022-08-17 17-25-06.mp4







drive.google.com


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Very nice rotation in the upper body/torso.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> The rain has stopped (almost), so here are three shots trying to put nut and bolts suggestions into practise. Note the explicit step of trying to lower the shoulders after the draw, and generate more clockwise torso rotation as I come into anchor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


U are a fast learner.
Final shooting position is excellent, major improvement.










So, do your medium HIGH draw and shoot two fletched and one bareshaft at 18 meters.

Then, try the John Dudley level draw motion, and shoot two fletched and one bareshaft at 18 meters and find which method of drawing to full draw, gives you tighter groups.

Find what you need to change, so you can do THIS at 18 meters.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

malcolmbarr said:


> Note the explicit step of trying to lower the shoulders after the draw, and generate more clockwise torso rotation as I come into anchor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



However, I recommend the LEVEL draw, more economy of motion.
"setting the shoulder" is a myth, and does not work, from a bio-mechanical perspective.






Absolutely ZERO need to lift the bow hand/bow arm HIGHER than the final shooting position.


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