# Stabilizer Mounting Position



## RCR_III

I've been thinking this one over for a couple weeks now and because I don't have the bracket to change my set up anymore, I'll ask here to see from people's personal experiences. 

When I was watching Bow Junky's live feed on Hoyt's target bows I heard them mentioning that changing rear stabilizer mounting position from up higher coming off the front mount (or upper back mount as well on the new Prevail) to down at the lower mounting position can change grip pressures and how you can go about tuning a bow to your natural tendencies. 

So say if you naturally get a left tear from a bow that you tune out, mounting lower helps with this and if you normally tune out a right tear, mounting higher can help with this. 

Anyone run across this before? I honestly don't remember anymore how things were tuning wise when I mounted my back bar off the front mount. I've used a lower mount setting now for a while because of the lower center of gravity and feel from it off-setting planes of the front and rear bars.


----------



## nestly

As far as balance and grip pressure, it doesn't matter where the stabilizer is attached to the riser. The only difference is that for a front mount, the stab would have to be longer and angled down more to get the bow balanced the same as a low/back mount. Shorter stabs are more rigid (and cost less) than long stabs, so that's the real benefit of rear mounts. Upon release however, the attachment point is going to resist movement, so that can definitely change the recoil (and tune)


----------



## RCR_III

Right, but do you know how the difference in reaction feels with the back bar mounted higher vs lower? That's more the question I'm getting at.


----------



## nestly

Well, if the bow "jumps" forward upon release, then the lower the stab is mounted, then less the bottom of the riser will "jump" forward relative to the top of the riser. To me, that seems beneficial to have the bottom of the riser more resistant to movement because the hand is below center, and upon release, causes the bottom of the riser to move forward more than the top.

You mentioned left/right, and I can't see any reason that left/right tear would be affected by simply moving the attachment point up/down. Now moving weight out farther to the left would because it would cause the left side of the riser to resist movement more than the right.


----------



## baller

RCR_III said:


> Right, but do you know how the difference in reaction feels with the back bar mounted higher vs lower? That's more the question I'm getting at.


For me personally in my experience when I have the bar in the lower position (static balance is what i call it) the bow tends to hold better with a minimal amount of float and doesn't react much at the shot, just kind of sits there...but i notice that as I tire out throughout the day or when I'm shooting extreme uphill and downhill my misses are pretty extreme.

With the side bar mounted in the same hole as the front bar, down and out slightly (resistance setup, again my terminology) I find that the hold seems to float just a bit more than the lower mount, but smoother and slower, and my misses are no where near as extreme. The bow in this case reacts the same way on the shot no matter the angle, falling forward in my hand just a bit as I follow through. I didn't see much if any change in tune when testing this. Your mileage may very. I have several archery friends that shoot much better with one or the other, and some that don't seem to care and shoot well with either setup.


----------



## Mahly

I don't see a big reason for higher or lower mounting to affect the left/right of the grip.
I CAN see where high/low mounting will affect the balance of the bow differently, especially on steeply angled shots... perhaps changing the grip pressure as far as the vertical plane goes.
Oversimplifying, a lower mount (on a rear stab) will act heavier when shooting downhill, and will act lighter when shooting uphill.

I suppose, if you have a lot of weight going out to the sides, (affecting grip pressure), those same changes in effective weight, could play a role in your left/right grip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## RCR_III

In my head when I'm thinking about it all, I can see differences in where the bow is being pulled from on a higher or lower mount.

Higher up mount, behind front bar, and the weight is closer to the hand and center of the bow. 

Lower mount, and the weight is pulling against the bottom of the riser. 

Same weight and angle of the bar, and you'd think pulling from the bottom of a riser versus pulling from a slightly below middle position would affect things differently. 

It's changing leverage location and making the fulcrum, bow hand, react differently to the location of the lever, the stabilizer. 

Lowering the lever point downwards would give more leverage over the top of the bow and want to pull it left, right handed shooter, more than having the lever located directly under the fulcrum, our hand. 

This would make our hands have to adjust to the leverage pulling the top of the bow. Which in turn could effect grip pressure. 

But at the same time, you could lower the weight amount or angle of the bar outwards to compensate. 

I've found from an aiming and feedback on the shot prospective having a lower mounted rear bar changed the way the bow felt in my hand. Almost heavier. More resistance I'm thinking. 

Never have played around with the tuning part to see though because I've always focused on the aiming and follow through part.


----------



## nestly

All the stabilizer rod does before the shot is hold the weight in a specific place with respect to the riser. In any of the scenarios shown in the animation below (front/low/high), imagine there's a second (or 3rd) connection between the riser and the weights and it should become obvious why the attachment point itself does not change the balance of the bow, even when the bow is tipped up/down.

"If" there's any difference in the feel when lowering/raising the stab attachment point, it's only because of the weight/position of the stabilizer mounting bracket, which in some cases might be significant.







Disclaimer, all the above info pertains to the way a bow holds/feels BEFORE the shot, stabilizer attachment certainly does affect the reaction during/after the shot.


----------



## RCR_III

I like the video but if you change the location of where the weight pulls from in regards to the pivot point, your hand, it changes the effect of the pull when tilting the bow vertically. 

If this scenario was true, you could play Jenga, place your elbow on the table, and pull the tower over as easily from the bottom as the top. And we know that if you pull from the top it you have more leverage over the top of the object and it will tumble easier. 

If you're focusing on the end point of the weights theirselves, like he Video suggests, then you're only looking at a portion of the equation. You have to look at where they attach in comparison to the pivot location to see where the leverage of the weights are pulling from. 

It's an easy illustration to see. Attach a string to the top of a pencil and dangle weights off it and see how easy it moves. Then cut the string to match the height of the weights and attach the string to a below middle position and see how it's harder to have the pencil tip over.


----------



## nestly

No, look at the video again. Imagine the rear stab weights are attached with both the lower stab attachment (red) and the upper stab attachment (purple) simultaneously. Now imagine drawing and holding that bow. Now imagine one of them disappearing.... nothing is going to happen to the balance of the bow (except for the mass weight of the carbon rod that just vanished) The weight distribution is still exactly the same as it was with both connections. What you're missing is that the stabilizer rods are a rigid connection between the riser and the weights, (unlike your string, and Jenga examples). All the stab rods do is hold the weight at a specific location relative to the riser. Unless the rods are flexing, the connection location is irrelevant as far as balance. There is no "leverage" involved because the weights always move with the riser, ie rigidly attached to the riser


----------



## RCR_III

They are part of the riser, but your changing their mounting position in comparison to the pivot point. The weight on the rigid rod will pull the riser back more above the pivot point than below it. 

Instead of using a computer model, put it into real world use with a real object and you'll see the change. You pull from the top of an object and it'll behave differently than from the bottom.


----------



## nestly

RCR_III said:


> They are part of the riser, but your changing their mounting position in comparison to the pivot point. The weight on the rigid rod will pull the riser back more above the pivot point than below it.
> 
> Instead of using a computer model, put it into real world use with a real object and you'll see the change. You pull from the top of an object and it'll behave differently than from the bottom.


I would suggest you do a real world model.


----------



## baller

Keep in mind also that the pivot point and the center of gravity are two different things....pivot point is your hand at the grip when at full draw....after that the center of gravity becomes the pivot point. 

In my testing and experience the only thing stablilizer related that can affect left/right tune is the side weight that the back bar is influencing on the riser and how much your shooting style naturally compensates for this. Some shooters have setups that are way side heavy, some will balance vertically with little or no side pressure. To each his own and unfortunately there are so many variables that one really needs to just move stuff around and see what really works best for them.


----------



## SonnyThomas

I thought I already posted of paper tuning a bow with nothing on it and then shooting through paper with sight frame and front and back stabilizers. The resulting tear definitely showed I had to re-tune. Having issues with my arrow rest I went through tuning again and again I had to tune even though the same sight frame and stabilizers. I think I added -1- ounce to the back as I tested and tuned. 
With what I found it seems to reason moving the back to a lower or higher mounting point would change something.

As for leverage, how could there not be some influence? Same weight, but dispersed differently. Effectively I could have moved my back bar out instead of adding a ounce. 
Just read over Griv's stabilizer article and he gives of leverage quite a bit.


----------



## Rick!

I suggest some folks go back to first quarter freshman statics and understand free body diagrams, force couples, moments, reactions and equilibrium. To make things easy to understand, assume the stab is massless and use a point mass for the weights. Someone is doing the sum of the vertical forces at the bow hand and ignoring the moments (or torques).

On my Dom Max, both stabs are mounted at the front mount.
On my Dom Max 3D for BHFS, the rear stab is mounted low with extra washers located on the two side mount holes.


----------



## nestly

@ Sonny YES, stabilizer attachment point can affect tuning. NO, simply changing the attachment point does not affect the overall balance (whether level or inclined). (yeah, I know you can't see the YouTubes, but you're just going to have to trust that they show what I say they do.

@ Rick.... I couldn't calculate it if my life depended on it, so here's my slightly less technical attempt... lol


----------



## Mahly

I suppose "over simplified" was indeed correct.
You can get the weight to the same place with a higher or lower stab mount, as long as you use a different length stab.
Assuming you have 1 rear stab, not different length stabs for each mounting position, I believe my earlier statement is still valid.
How much of a difference, is probably not significant. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rick!

Excellent demonstration nestly!

The $64 question is: Why does it feel different in your bow hand when you change a rear bar position?

Some of it has to do with the attachment being out of plane with the grip/front attachment but to me it feels "deader". 
The added pendulum effect could be desirable at times but for me, on bows longer than 35", it's not a positive effect.


----------



## SonnyThomas

For me if I change something then something is effected. Anything felt is real. Off base, yes, but even changing d-loop material can effect your shot.

My back stabilizer mount hole is already down 1.300" from the front and the next hole down is a measured 1.600" down. So 2.900". Moving my back down 1.600" may not show any effects and then who knows until you try....in the real world.

Some back mounting holes are easily far lower than mine. Those multiple holes are there for some reason be it for machining or wanted through suggest.

Looking at some pictures on hand, Chance B. has his back stabilizer mount in the lowest back hole which looks like some 5.00", this both on his previous PSE and now on his Elite. Tim G., on his PSE, has his back stabilizer mount at the very bottom of the riser, guessing short of a mile.


----------



## nestly

SonnyThomas said:


> For me if I change something then something is effected. Anything felt is real.


YES, "if" you can feel it, but merely changing the attachment point without also changing the position of the rear weight would not change the static balance. 

Here's a different animation, hopefully you can see this one?


----------



## XForce Girl

nestly said:


> @ Sonny YES, stabilizer attachment point can affect tuning. NO, simply changing the attachment point does not affect the overall balance (whether level or inclined). (yeah, I know you can't see the YouTubes, but you're just going to have to trust that they show what I say they do.
> 
> @ Rick.... I couldn't calculate it if my life depended on it, so here's my slightly less technical attempt... lol


That is an awesome explanation and demonstration. Thank you for posting that.


----------



## Rick!

Something to think about nestly; your demo shows the pivot as a pin joint. Pin joints by definition cannot support a moment, or torque. A hand has friction which then must be the reaction to the torques applied by the stabs. Add in the holding weight multiplied by the distance between grip and arrow and the hand feels and reacts on the total sum of applied torques...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RCR_III

So if everyone will listen to Bow Junky's Podcast 17, at around the 51 minute mark GRIV goes over this exact situation and talks about how having the back rod mounted lower has more effect over the riser and can change tears in paper.


----------



## nestly

RCR_III said:


> So if everyone will listen to Bow Junky's Podcast 17, at around the 51 minute mark GRIV goes over this exact situation and talks about how having the back rod mounted lower has more effect over the riser and can change tears in paper.


I said in my very first post, and repeated at least a couple of additional times, that attachment point can definitely change the tune. Actually, my entire 2nd reply addressed that issue. The attachment point of the back stab will not affect the (static) balance at brace and/or at full draw, but it can affect the way the bow reacts upon arrow release (dynamic)
As I recall, George also said that if the bow doesn't tear the same hole with, and without stabs, then something is wrong. Not sure I 100% agree with that, but thank goodness that there's room in this sport for personal preference.


----------



## nestly

Rick! said:


> Something to think about nestly; your demo shows the pivot as a pin joint. Pin joints by definition cannot support a moment, or torque. A hand has friction which then must be the reaction to the torques applied by the stabs. Add in the holding weight multiplied by the distance between grip and arrow and the hand feels and reacts on the total sum of applied torques...


I'll keep that in mind, but at this point I don't see how the type of connection between the bow and hand matters. The weight position and distribution remains the same regardless of whether the bow is on a friction-less pivot, or locked down tight in a bench vice. Before the shot, all the stabilizer rods do is hold the stab weights at a specific position relative to the riser, so it doesn't matter where the rods attach to the riser, all that matters is that the weight is where the archer wants it. Everything gets a lot more complicated when the string detaches from the release and things start moving fast and violent, so beyond basic principals of inertia, I'll not even attempt to go there.


----------



## SonnyThomas

nestly said:


> I said in my very first post, and repeated at least a couple of additional times, that attachment point can definitely change the tune. Actually, my entire 2nd reply addressed that issue. The attachment point of the back stab will not affect the (static) balance at brace and/or at full draw, but it can affect the way the bow reacts upon arrow release (dynamic)
> As I recall, George also said that if the bow doesn't tear the same hole with, and without stabs, then something is wrong. Not sure I 100% agree with that, but thank goodness that there's room in this sport for personal preference.


I burned up a lot wax paper while tuning my bow the last two times. All of the second time reflected of the same of first I took a picture of. So nothing on the bow and no bubble to say I was holding just so and pretty much bullet holes. Weights on so the bubble centered on it's own and low left tears.... 
So two paper tunes 5 months showing the same thing. Just me?


----------



## nestly

To the best of my recollection, I've never tried to diagnose a paper tear that I didn't watch the the archer make....I'm not going to start today either. 

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


----------



## SonnyThomas

Didn't ask you to either.... Just showing what I got. Corrected, bow is shooting better than I can shoot it...Tear slightly high I then went with French tuning. Only out to 30 yards, but good enough because I'm not shooting past 40 yards.

additional; I won't paper tune for someone else. I'll help that person, but he or she doing the shooting...


----------



## jozi

As long as i am in archery i have tried many times to get the best bow balance. I used my technical background to do this and noticed the following
A. the weight of the stabilizer mount alone changes the balance
B so does the weight of the stabilizer itself
So if u move the mounting bracket up or down u also move weight up down and this will make the bow lean forward or backward and will be felt in the bow hand which holds the full weight of the bow.
Changing where the mounting bracket sits also means that the connecting point to the bow moves for or back ward on the bow which makes the stabilizer act shorter or longer.
My conclusion is that whatever u do it always has an effect on the way the bow feels because your hand is the only thing that contacts the bow and the total bow weight moves around where the hand touches the grip.


----------



## SonnyThomas

jozi said:


> As long as i am in archery i have tried many times to get the best bow balance. I used my technical background to do this and noticed the following
> A. the weight of the stabilizer mount alone changes the balance
> B so does the weight of the stabilizer itself
> So if u move the mounting bracket up or down u also move weight up down and this will make the bow lean forward or backward and will be felt in the bow hand which holds the full weight of the bow.
> Changing where the mounting bracket sits also means that the connecting point to the bow moves for or back ward on the bow which makes the stabilizer act shorter or longer.
> My conclusion is that whatever u do it always has an effect on the way the bow feels because your hand is the only thing that contacts the bow and the total bow weight moves around where the hand touches the grip.


I agree with this, but understand the hand is only part of. As per Griv; "The twin bones in your forearm are in a slightly coiled or in a twisted state to hold the bow upright."


----------



## redman

With my back bar mounted super low I get a right hole in paper but the bow aims super good that way that is why I leave it that way


----------



## RCR_III

redman said:


> With my back bar mounted super low I get a right hole in paper but the bow aims super good that way that is why I leave it that way


Same with me too!


----------



## nestly

To be clear do you mean mounted super low (meaning the attachment point), or the rear weight positioned super low? Both/either can affect the tune, but there is a difference between low mount and low weight. For example until this year, there was only one "low" mount on Hoyts, so I'm guessing "mounted super low" probably refers to the weight position, not the actual "mounting" point.


----------

