# New grip



## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

I've used the Ortho and just tried the Jaeger, I prefer the Jaeger. 

TAO


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

*Customization*

As with all things to do with the body and individual customization is best if you know what you want. Archery grips are personal. I love the feel of Jaeger grips as far as the rubber interface to the hand. I don't like (for my hands) the angle and width (out of the package). I also have a little bump on my thumb knuckle that always gets bruised or raw in the Jaeger if used as it's made.

So, While I have 3 Jaeger on my higher end bows, I have customized them as well. Yes they look a bit nicer than the epoxy putty and feel great but by all means customize it to fit your hand in the proper position. 

If you want the best of both worlds, get some epoxy putty, build up and shape the grip to fit your hand.. apply some non-slip rubber to the interface for your hand and work with it for a while. Continue to grind, shape, sand, re-apply more putty, repeat until you get a very easy to repeat grip with little effort in your shot cycle. (comfortable, repeatable and consistent) Then spring for the Jaeger "BEST" grip and get to it with a belt sander and dremmell to shape it the same way as your "ugly epoxy" grip (now you have a model to copy). Note I said belt sander.. I tried cutting, filing, hand sanding, microplanes, sawing and several other ways of shaping the hard rubber on the Jaeger and the belt sander with 60-80 grit (higher grits if you feel the need for a smoother finish), and a dremel with the sanding drum attachment have been the tools that always win out on shaping that grip.

The Jaeger looks real pretty and shaped correctly it's a great grip..

DC


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

What DC said. I've been doing it this way for as long as Paul has been making recurve grips. In fact, the very first Jaeger "BEST" style grips were born when I gave my ugly epoxy putty grips to Paul to work his dual density magic. 

Agreed that his grips work down and look better afterwards than any other grips I've used. He uses the perfect type of plastic and rubber for custom shaping.


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## Gene M (Nov 16, 2010)

Are you guys saying I can shape the rubber pad on the Jager grip? If that is the case, I'm sold.

I'm constantly amazed at how helpful this site is, thanks as usual - Gene.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Absolutely you can. Paul's grips are easily the most versatile "custom" grips available, for this reason.

You'd cringe if you could see what I've done to a pile of his grips in the past 5 years... ha, ha. 

John


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## Gene M (Nov 16, 2010)

OK - new Jager Best 2.0 grip on order. 

Cheers - Gene

PS John - I'd never cringe at anyone's pile of prototypes or experiments. Snicker a little maybe, but never cringe.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Whew! That's a relief.  ha, ha. My workbench right now has at least 7 grips on it. Maybe more.

The 2.0 grip is going to offer you less material to work with, not more. So if I were you, I'd get a tube of epoxy putty and shape your own grip first, then compare what you end up with to either his original grip or the 2.0 version. The 2.0 version has a scallop of material removed from the heel area that you might want. But either grip is very shootable. Paul sent me some of his 2.0 grips to evaluate a month or so ago, and I was skeptical until I shot them. Doesn't look like it should work, but it does.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

What is it, 'exactly' (don't spare words), that you are chasing as you experiment with your bow grip? Obviously "a higher score" is the snappy answer. But I'm interested more in is, as you test a grip, what feedback are you specifically processing in order to determine 1) I'm done, this is perfect; or 2) ok, it's better, but next I need to change ??? on the grip so that I can increase/decrease the ??? to produce a more stable aim as I draw/anchor/pull through the clicker/release.

And is score 'all that matters' to you in your search? In other words, do you have episodes where you think "ok, I seem to score better with grip A, but grip B feels more comfortable and more stable and should score better but for some unknown reason doesn't score better"? If so, do you go Don Quixote on grip B and try to chase down 'why' it feels better but shoots poorer?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, I am looking for two things: 1) pressure points in the proper locations - at least for me. and 2) consistency.

Grip shape will dictate most what part of your hand/wrist is receiving the most force, along with tiller setting. 

I can tell a lot about how a grip is going to "score" for me by the way the bow leaves my hand at release. A properly designed grip will have my bow jumping straight toward the target with no lateral movement by the stabilizer rod. 

Paul and I have probably caused each other a few gray hairs over grips in the past 5 years. But we're both still learning about this stuff and there still is no one perfect grip for every archer because all of us have differences in our hands and the way our arms approach the bow.

But consistency and pressure points, as they relate to proper bow reaction, are what I'm looking for.

If those two things are there, then then end result is a very relaxed hand that's not "fishing around" for the proper position on every shot. This allows an archer to focus on expansion and not other things.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ok, that's perfectly clear. Thanks.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

As an aside, when experimenting with my grip, I build it up/alter the shape with small pieces of hard rubber tennis racquet grip material, so that I can cut different size pieces and shape the grip like a mosaic. Then I wrap it tightly with an absorbent racquet grip tape. Then test. Then when I determine what pressure points need to be addressed/changed, it's very easy to unwrap the grip tape, and add/subtract more small individually cut/shaped pieces of firm racquet grip, then rewrap. I can try a lot of different things in a short amount of time and, more importantly, I can go back to a previous iteration in a couple of minutes and be shooting again.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, that's a good idea.


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

Paul just sent me his latest BEST of the BEST grip - it's really good! I believe two coaches in my area will be ordering them as well. After installing it instead of my built-out regular grip, I started shooting and (as a relative newbie) almost immediately had problems. Groups went very wide, string picture went off... couldn't make the clicker... asked my coach, who was on the line but teaching someone else, to have a look - he did, frowned a lot, then burst out laughing...
no heel on the grip.... ahem. moved the clicker forward around 1/4" and everything back to normal, but better now because of the improved hand position. Whereas three minutes before I was struggling to get on paper, one clicker move after brought people around - "wow! what's he using? oh, that grip! yes, it's new! where can I get one?".... literally.
Thank you Paul!
Cheers
Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Indeed, the BEST style 2.0 will change (shorten) your draw length a bit. It gives you all the support of the original grip, but with a lower heel position.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Chris RL said:


> Paul just sent me his latest BEST of the BEST grip .... then burst out laughing...
> no heel on the grip....


Just burst out laughing myself on reading this. The new Best 2.0 grip looks exactly like my original Jager BEST grip...... after I finished modifying it! Always found that I couldn't get on with that "lump" in the bottom left corner - might have been OK for big hands, but with small hands the lower wrist bone always interfered.  Really like the look of this new development.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Are these grips something a novice would benefit from in order help develop good form, or not?


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

I think so, I'm a relative novice.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

Cephas said:


> Are these grips something a novice would benefit from in order help develop good form, or not?


They are designed for someone using the BEST system stance, shoulder and hand positions. The grip feels wrong if you are not aligned properly. If you have a good coach, he (or she) can walk you through the process. But it's an aha moment once the grip feels right.

TAO


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

I think that the new grip is a very definite improvement in that it isn't so hardwired to orthodox hand and shoulder position. I find that it will encourage the hand into position by taking you to that happy place a lot more naturally. It was kind of a shock to the system to find such a small change in detail could have such a large effect. If you don't want to buy a new grip and you have a one of my BEST style grips sitting around, I encourage you to look at what I've done and reproduce the detail and see what you think.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Just wanted to say I really like the Jager grip I got last summer, thanks Paul. And the rubber feels great and the colours look great too.

In the past, I've used car body bondo on roughened aluminum risers to experiment with shape, rasping and sanding and re applieng layers then covering them with adhesive "hockey" tape and first-aid tape, then later tried tennis wraps. What a mess, had the ugliest bow for years. 

Before I learned of Jager grips I spoke to a local golf re-grip shop once and he want $200 to try it, sounded like a "go-away" price I said no thanks and left.

There are 2 bows that I really like the grip on, the Helix and an old Wing Astro. Was temped to buy a Helix recently buy didn't. 

Some day I suspect the riser grip bay will be universal and the grip itself will be custom to the archer. Then you keep the grip and switch out the riser as you want. Is that a marketing twist? just a thought....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Some day I suspect the riser grip bay will be universal and the grip itself will be custom to the archer.


Don't hold your breath. No engineer would want to painted into that corner.

John


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

True, can't fool you John, that comment was half in jest....dreaming out loud from the archer/user point of view. 

In the real world industrial engineers are mandated mostly to take the tack of keeping their customer locked into their solutions only, and they succeed until the game changes. It's a global industry and lots of non western centric engineers are playing. I think there might be a new idea out there that changes how the rest do their designs....heck it's just physical material that's been around for years, do we really think there isn't a new approach out there? Just saying....bricks are stacked with mortar today the same way they did in the accient world, but today's telecom technology is far different now than it was 10 years ago, so each moves on it's own rythym. How about the technology of the materials in archery limbs and risers and arrows...In my opinion the riser is the dummy, so are stabilisers...what do you need? a hunk of aluminum carverd to a shape/geometry to accept the limbs,,,,duh! is this any different than 20 or 30 years ago? then why the marketing hype, a $600-700 riser really? but if we as archers are starting to think critically about form, shot sequence and execution and now value the feel and grip then why not look at this as a starting point, yes? no?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but if we as archers are starting to think critically about form, shot sequence and execution and now value the feel and grip then why not look at this as a starting point, yes? no?


Or here's a thought... Wind the clock back 30 years when Olympic archers first began to look critically at form (Pace/McKinney/Barrs) and consider the GM as the "starting point." 

Because we've only come in a circle since then.

Everything old is new again...


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

What has been will be again, 
what has been done will be done again; 
there is nothing new under the sun.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Has anyone tried sculpting/building up the bottom part of their grip to follow the swell of the lower part of their thumb pad (essentially curling around the bottom of the thumb pad in a modified manner)? The intent being that your hand would settle into the grip like a (I can't think of a better analogy) breast into a custom-fitted bra cup, allowing for no rocking/variation from one shot to the next?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, in a way, that's exactly what Paul's 2.0 grips are doing. I'll bring you one to look at when I come up in April. Or I'll try to bring one to A&M so you can see it.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

OK, John - thanks! I'll look forward to it. See you in College Station


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, I just shot a PB single and double indoor FITA with a grip that features this scalloped design. There is no doubt it offers an advantage in both consistency and allowing you to shoot with a relaxed hand. I'll show you what I have in a few weeks.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm looking forward to seeing it. 

I've been working mine up here, too. I'll post some pics later today. Basically, I build down the thumb shelf to where MY thumb normally lays - giving me a natural 45degree angle for my thumb palm pad, instead of having to contort my hand/arm to follow the assembly line 'parallel to the ground' grip shelf.
It 'feels' great, and my scores reflect that - 60/70 points higher than last winter (admittedly, the '70 point jump' sounds more impressive than was my total score last year at indoor nats).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm finding that building "down" the top right edge of the grip where the "V" between the thumb and index fingers meet is a very important design feature if I want a repeatable, relaxed hand position. So far, this has been overlooked by all but one grip designer I know of - PSE featured this angled top rear portion on their grips for the X-factor starting about 2006 IIRC. I was told that Alan Rasor designed that into their grips. I'll try to post some pic's of what I'm talking about soon.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Here's what I'm doing:


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## Flyers 1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Way back when I worked in a Dental Laboratory we used this putty mix that is still available and widely used from a company called Coltene.Very easy to work with and very moldable.You can trim with an X-Acto knife or with a small hand piece and a burr.Not sure how this would work/look on a riser,etc but you guys now have me thinking of my next project.

http://www.coltene.com/en/products/47/details/206/Lab_Putty.html

http://www.coltene.com/download.php?file_id=2264


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, that may well be the ugliest grip I've ever seen on a bow! ha, ha. 

I've been around the block a time or two with grips. I think every archer who's competed for a while probably has. It is a very unique issue to each person, but there are some "standards" that will work for just about everyone. 

World class scores are being shot every week with high, low and medium grips of just about every shape, so there is no "one" grip shape that works best. But there are some principles in geometry that will help consistency, I've learned.

Still working on my perfect grip, but I think I'm getting closer every day.

One thing I have learned about grips, and about equipment in general is that unless it's performed IN COMPETITION, it has yet to prove itself. That to me, is the only place I really make decisions anymore.

John


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Don't know how you can beat plumber's epoxy. Here's a couple grips I worked on. Surface is hard, non-slip and easily colored with black sharpie. I have a problem with my thumb knuckle rubbing (proximal phalange - yeah I had to look it up lol) so cut away the thumb pad section and it is much more comfortable. Plus experimenting with the usual "best" adaptations to fit my hand.

Plumber's epoxy is easy to mix, just mush it like clay with your fingers, it can be molded for several minutes and is hard enough to rasp/sand in 30 minutes. And its waterproof, of course. The base is the old standard plastic Hoyt grip for Matrix, etc. Edited because I'm not sure where the left one came from, but it fits my Matrix.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, plumber's epoxy is about as easy as it gets. I get the long gray tube at Lowe's for about $5 or 6, I think. It usually lasts me quite a while. I just cut off a 1/2" or 3/4" at a time and I'm sure to re-seal the tube.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"Larry, that may well be the ugliest grip I've ever seen on a bow! ha, ha."

Well, I prefer to think of it as 'unique', but in any event it's nice to be 1st in something ... I guess! :embara:


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

lksseven said:


> "Larry, that may well be the ugliest grip I've ever seen on a bow! ha, ha."
> 
> Well, I prefer to think of it as 'unique', but in any event it's nice to be 1st in something ... I guess! :embara:


Larry, I will GIVE you a grip if you promise to take that one off!


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Well I finally found someone over here with a Jager best grip 1.0 that I could try for a few shots, at first it feels really good in the hand but when I draw the bow i just cant keep the pressure in the middle of the platform, instead i'm pushing really hard in to the left edge. It feels like the angle from left to right is to steep for me, my index finger's knuckle was crushing real hard against top left edge where the grip meets the riser when I try to move the pressure more to the middle of the grip.
Am I doing something wrong or is the grip not sized for me ? One thing I did like about it was the my elbow finally stayed vertical instead of slowly creeping horizontal again. Another thing I felt was that my shoulder alignment was better and it just felt a little easier going trough the clicker. Unfortunately the grip didn't fit my riser so i can't experiment with it any further.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

julle said:


> Well I finally found someone over here with a Jager best grip 1.0 that I could try for a few shots, at first it feels really good in the hand but when I draw the bow i just cant keep the pressure in the middle of the platform, instead i'm pushing really hard in to the left edge. It feels like the angle from left to right is to steep for me, my index finger's knuckle was crushing real hard against top left edge where the grip meets the riser when I try to move the pressure more to the middle of the grip.
> Am I doing something wrong or is the grip not sized for me ? One thing I did like about it was the my elbow finally stayed vertical instead of slowly creeping horizontal again. Another thing I felt was that my shoulder alignment was better and it just felt a little easier going trough the clicker. Unfortunately the grip didn't fit my riser so i can't experiment with it any further.


Proper hand position to take advantage of the grip:









Proper Shoulder Position:

View attachment Shoulder position.doc



TAO


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Cuthbert said:


> Larry, I will GIVE you a grip if you promise to take that one off!


Haha, you and John don't know the half of it ... my _other_ grip makes this one look like the pretty sister!


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

TheAncientOne said:


> Proper hand position to take advantage of the grip:
> 
> View attachment 1294822
> 
> ...


mmmh, I think I should have rolled my shoulder inwards even further. I could visualize that this way i could get more in to the grip...


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

julle said:


> mmmh, I think I should have rolled my shoulder inwards even further. I could visualize that this way i could get more in to the grip...


From your point of view it would look like the shoulder is forward of the arm. It took me a while to feel comfortable in this position since I had to break 40 years of habits but I find I can hold steadier longer. The downside is that my scores went down in the beginning as I adjusted my stance and body position. 

TAO


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I'm finding that building "down" the top right edge of the grip where the "V" between the thumb and index fingers meet is a very important design feature if I want a repeatable, relaxed hand position......I'll try to post some pic's of what I'm talking about soon.
> 
> John


John, Can you post some pictures of this feature/area yet? Thanks


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sure. Here's a few grips I'm using at the moment:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

As you can see, these are medium-low grips. I believe this feature (building down the top right portion) is more important on the lower grips. The natural curve in the throat takes care of this to a greater extent in the higher grips.

John


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## dbake (Mar 5, 2007)

John,

I thought it was supposed to be a bad thing to have the rubber cushion or grip tape on the grip as this could or would result in bow torque, but I see you are using it on your grips?

Don


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Is it me or is the platform just straight? i.e no angle from left to right?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dbake, torqueing with a recurve is not nearly the problem that it is with a compound. I prefer grip tape or the rubber interface of Paul Jaeger's grips to a smooth grip, but I have also shot well with a smooth grip if it is shaped correctly. You have to remember that it's HOT here in Texas, so sweaty hands are a regular thing. If your grip is sliding around, then it interrupts your shot cycle. It's also a sign that your grip is not designed properly for you. With a properly shaped grip, I can shoot without my hand slipping, even when it's moist from perspiration, with or without the grip tape or rubber. 

Julle, the angle is not so apparent near the throat. The angle becomes more prominent toward the heel.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

John,

I see the grips you are currently using are much more skinny in comparison to the first Jager grips you helped design. Any particular reason?

Gabe


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gabe, Paul's "BEST Style" grips were based on grips that I designed using what I learned from Coach Lee at the Olympic Training Center. They were as close as I could get to the shape he was recommending at the time. Rather than someone having to find a way to get him (coach Lee) to personally shape their grips, I thought that everyone interested in shooting the his BEST method should at least have a chance to get a proper grip to start with, so I approached Paul at the NFAA Indoor Nationals show in Louisville and he agreed to start producing them. 

They were specifically designed for someone interested in shooting the BEST method, and I believe they have worked well for many, many archers, as I see them now at almost every tournament I attend.

However, I attempted unsucessfully to shoot coach Lee's method, and chose to go back to the more traditional method I used in '04, with a lower wrist grip. I am primarily a "pusher" (although not 100%) and a lower grip works better for that technique. If you look at the Frangilli's book "The Heretic Archer" they describe their "ball" grip for use with a low wrist, pushing technique. 

John


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## Gene M (Nov 16, 2010)

Received my new Jager Best 2.0 grip yesterday and shot for a couple of hours with it today. I like it! There are definitely better defined points of contact which help get me a consistent grip from shot to shot. The sharper "edge" of the new grip seems to line up quite well with a natural crease in my palm also helping my consistency. Given the large number and severity of my technique flaws, it's hard to tell how or if it is really helping my score. However, my best ends today with the new grip were definitely better than my best ends previously with the stock Eclipse grip. Thanks for everyone's help. 

Gene


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## G4RB4G3M4N (Feb 12, 2009)

I've recently switched over from a 2001 Aerotec to a 2011 GMX, and have found that I do not like the position of the GMXs grip. Does anyone know if the Aerotec stock grips are low, medium or high wrist? I've held a inno cxt with a jager on it and felt that it was worse (for me, I know most people love it) than the GMX grip is, as I dislike its hand position. Are any of the stock hoyt grips similar to the old ones (ortho, ergo?). 

What about Loesch grips? Has anyone any experience with those?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

They are what I'd consider medium. Get the ergo, as it will be the closest to the old aerotec grip. Loesch grips are excellent too. Just more expensive.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

When shooting well, I have felt the sweet balance of equal push/pull. I seem to recall your referring to this balance as well. Now you've moved to more of a push?





limbwalker said:


> Gabe, Paul's "BEST Style" grips were based on grips that I designed using what I learned from Coach Lee at the Olympic Training Center. They were as close as I could get to the shape he was recommending at the time. Rather than someone having to find a way to get him (coach Lee) to personally shape their grips, I thought that everyone interested in shooting the his BEST method should at least have a chance to get a proper grip to start with, so I approached Paul at the NFAA Indoor Nationals show in Louisville and he agreed to start producing them.
> 
> They were specifically designed for someone interested in shooting the BEST method, and I believe they have worked well for many, many archers, as I see them now at almost every tournament I attend.
> 
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Depends on the day... LOL!


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## weatherbyman (Feb 5, 2008)

180 Grips suck and any rubber-based grips suck and induce torque here was my solution > https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/101590261404200714603/albums/5712908886849724433


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

How does rubber induce torque? I think the thread was primarily regarding recurve grips.





weatherbyman said:


> 180 Grips suck and any rubber-based grips suck and induce torque here was my solution > https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/101590261404200714603/albums/5712908886849724433


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Corey, think recurve...


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

Received a Jager 2.0 yesterday, and I'm impressed. In my quest for the perfect grip I've shot several Jager grips, but this one has a unique fit and feel. I'm anxious to shoot it tonight.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

I just finished my first 100 shots with my Jager BEST 2.0 grip. Accounting for the "new equipment" boost of feel-good-ness to the session, tucked away in the 75th-85th shot somewhere was one of the best-feeling shots I've had in a year. I'll put another 1,000 shots through the bow, and see if I can extract that great feeling shot more often than 1-in-100.

More importantly, it replaces one of the few remaining pieces on the bow that aren't green (or black). This, no doubt, will inevitably make my scores higher.

-T


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Here's how the Koreans make grips. I found a vid of Coach kim making a grip he does not go so high up the grip with the Epoxy putty to avoid pinch.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

After another 600 shots with the new grip, I'm still getting increasing positive results for each practice session, and higher scores in competitions. I'm not one to say that a grip will magically make everything better, but Paul's grip gives me more information/feedback about how my hand is placed, which helps me to feel it the same way each time. To me, I think that's the big improvement over my previous grip (the stock grip that came with my GMX). I can more easily feel when I have the pressure correct, and whether I'm tensing or relaxing the pressure point area.

The new 2.0 grip doesn't seem as bulky, and I'm already visually used to seeing it on my riser, despite only having it on there for 10 days.

-T


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I shot with my new Jager 2.0 grip today, and it feels great. VERY consistent hand placement. Very well thought out/designed. I'm very pleased with it.

Soooo, Limbwalker and Paul, you'll have to find something else about my archery 'style' to tease about (which won't be hard).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hmmm. So tempting. Where to begin... ?

Ha, ha.  

Glad you are having luck with your new grip! 

John


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