# shooting heavy recurve



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Couldn't be your not quite use to the extra poundage could it?


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Ed, 

Going from 45# to 66# is a pretty big jump. It may take you a while to get to where your body isn't squishing or hunching against the additional weight. You'll probably have to be more mindful of using your back muscles and bone-on-bone contact with the heavier bow. My recommendation is to warm up shooting your lighter bow, then try to shoot a controlled number of shots with the new, heavy Widow. Start with one arrow at a time, trying for perfect form. Work up to two, then three, and finally to five. Shoot the heavy bow every other day, to give your body time to recuperate. In a few months, you'll likely start being consistent. It's just pulling you out of form right now, which is predictable.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

i shoot every day about 15 groups 5 arrow groups 



thorwulfx said:


> Ed,
> 
> Going from 45# to 66# is a pretty big jump. It may take you a while to get to where your body isn't squishing or hunching against the additional weight. You'll probably have to be more mindful of using your back muscles and bone-on-bone contact with the heavier bow. My recommendation is to warm up shooting your lighter bow, then try to shoot a controlled number of shots with the new, heavy Widow. Start with one arrow at a time, trying for perfect form. Work up to two, then three, and finally to five. Shoot the heavy bow every other day, to give your body time to recuperate. In a few months, you'll likely start being consistent. It's just pulling you out of form right now, which is predictable.
> 
> ...


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

back off and shoot every other day so your muscles can have adequate time to recover and get stronger, this is no different than weight training and no knowlegable weight training strength coach would recommend training every day

I guarantee it will help


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

There is a difference in weight training and shooting a heavy poundage bow..Usually in weight training..you are using your muscles evenly..in shooting a bow..your not.Jumping to a heavier poundage puts all kinds of strains and pressures on muscles that aren't ready for it..and doesn't do it evenly...which is why you can hurt yourself if not prepared for it..

You have to approach shooting heavier poundage bows differently..you need to physically train before trying to shoot them..It's that simple and that is going to require your back.arms,wrist and fingers to be stronger...which is something many don't understand..

Chin ups...pull ups..push ups..finger push ups...all will help..but must be done carefully...as with any physical exercise..There is no magic pill you can take to train your muscles to shoot a heavier poundage bow easily..It takes time and repetitions done correctly..

Can you still shoot your Widow..yes...but in moderation until your physically strong enough to draw it smoothly and fluidly ..Gripping it and ripping it isn't the best way to be consistent. 

Mac


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

i pull the bow back easy and get good release but not hitting all that good



MAC 11700 said:


> There is a difference in weight training and shooting a heavy poundage bow..Usually in weight training..you are using your muscles evenly..in shooting a bow..your not.Jumping to a heavier poundage puts all kinds of strains and pressures on muscles that aren't ready for it..and doesn't do it evenly...which is why you can hurt yourself if not prepared for it..
> 
> You have to approach shooting heavier poundage bows differently..you need to physically train before trying to shoot them..It's that simple and that is going to require your back.arms,wrist and fingers to be stronger...which is something many don't understand..
> 
> ...


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

How long do you hold at anchor?


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## casterpollox (Apr 7, 2010)

feathermax ed said:


> i pull the bow back easy and get good release but not hitting all that good


Just stop for a second and listen to what these guys are saying. They're not exactly re-inventing the wheel.

Archery is a whole body sport. Yes you can draw the bow and yes you can release the bow. But if you're not hitting where you're aiming, it doesn't really matter does it? You've increased the strain on you're body by nearly 50 percent. That's like going from running a 5km to running 7km and expecting to finish in the same time.



feathermax ed said:


> i shoot every day about 15 groups 5 arrow groups


Are you shooting the heavier bow this many times? That might be the problem as fatigue is setting in, especially at that weight. I have to put my compound down after 60+ shots because my consistantcy drops off. I go from hitting 10's to 9's then the occasional 8 and it's time to rest.


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

Fred Bear shot 70 lbs and never lifted a weight in his life you can get strong and will get strong if you do as I suggested, you are shooting too much too often

FWIW before my cardiologist made me quit 10 years ago I was a powerlifter for 35 years I could do a double on the bench with 495lb and deadlift 960lbs at a body weight of 285 I know a thing or two about weight training.

Theres nothing worong with the suggestion to do pushups,pull up ect ect though for a lot of reasons, but what I suggested does work as well.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bobman said:


> back off and shoot every other day so your muscles can have adequate time to recover and get stronger, this is no different than weight training and no knowlegable weight training strength coach would recommend training every day
> 
> I guarantee it will help


Totally agree....especially if an archer is reaching muscular fatigue during a practice session.

An archer can shoot everyday....BUT...they need to be conditioned for it and should NOT be practicing everyday to muscular fatigue.

What I do on my off days if I had shot the previous day to muscular fatigue is practice using my dry fire bow. It draws 5lbs. and lets me work on aspects of my form without causing more muscular fatigue. Other options for the off days are using tools such as a string bow or other similar training tools that aren't designed to cause muscular fatigue.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bobman said:


> FWIW before my cardiologist made me quit 10 years ago I was a powerlifter for 35 years I could do a *double on the bench with 495lb and deadlift 960lbs at a body weight of 285 *I know a thing or two about weight training.


Dude...I wish I could be that strong! For my size...I'm more show than go :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## LucasK (May 30, 2011)

45 to 66 is a big jump I would suggest trying to find something in the middle, 55 or so and work with that then move to the 66 lb'er. Fred Bear shot 65 pounds most of his life he was in his twenties or early thirties when he started this weight, different than making the switch when you are older.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Feathermax, the main points have already been covered. It comes down to you're shooting too much too soon. I'd bet my hunting bow that you're not nearly as consistent yet as you think you are. Heavy bows have a tendency to make liars of us. You can feel like you're at full draw but are really short drawing by two inches. I worked up to 85#, and briefly flirted with 90#, but as soon as I did I realized it was too much work to stay proficient and began working backwards. I'm now shooting 60-65# and can handle it for hours on end if I take it slowly. 

A few perfect shots every other day is the easiest way to learn how to shoot a heavy bow, and it's not too difficult I promise. Increase the shots as you become more comfortable. Let your accuracy be the determining factor of when to add more shots. The easiest way would be to do small incremental jumps, maybe five pounds at a time every two months or so, but if you can come to draw and anchor with control than you can eventually work into that bow (but it does take a long time).


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

Those were personal bests at 48 years old. I love weight training but in a routine physical they found out I was born with a bicuspid aortic valve and it was making my aorta have an aneurism. I am probably going to have major heart surgery next month because my aorta is finally to the point its becoming dangerous. They told me I cant even draw my bow until its fixed.

I am looking forward to getting it fixed but I admit I'm nervous about the surgery. Getting old is challenging sometimes LOL but it beats the alternative.

Coincidentally its the same problem Arnold Swartzengger had to have heart surgery for, I guess Ill have a pig valve pretty soon.:angel:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Are you shooting it in the popular modern 'draw and hold' style? I could never shoot a heavy recurve that way, always had to snap shoot but shot ok.


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

i hunch over and draw back then hold and release



Destroyer said:


> Are you shooting it in the popular modern 'draw and hold' style? I could never shoot a heavy recurve that way, always had to snap shoot but shot ok.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Hunching over and snap shooting are both bad habbits and signs that you aren't comfortable with the weight. You can shoot a heavy bow well without having to worry about altering your form or rhythm, if you do the weight is simply too much.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

kegan said:


> if you do the weight is simply too much.


For the modern 'hold then release' technique. Snap shooting isn't a bad habit if your consistent, it might make things harder sometimes but you don't need to hold for a long time, just touch your anchor and release. You don't want to end up shooting a 40# bow just to shoot the so called 'correct' way. Lots of critters have been shot over the years snap shooting, it works.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

You should be able to comfortably pull and hold at full draw for a second or two to aim properly. Some folks don't need much, just a quick moment, but if you are simply passing anchor your sacrificing accuracy. When going after game that shouldn't be part of the equation. The photo below is almost two years old, but the bow in the picture is 70#. I've dropped down lately with the faster hybrids I'm building, with my current bow being 62#. Lighter, but I can comfortably hold at anchor and aim the arrow without struggling. 

You're sacrificing a lot of accuracy just touching anchor. If you can't hold at full draw for a second or two to solidify your aim you're asking for trouble, as not all of us are natural athletes with good eye-hand coordination. I fell for snap shooting when I got into archery too, and now I'm working on ridding myself of that affliction the long and slow way. If you can't come to anchor and hold, even in practice to see if you can, you shouldn't be hunting with that bow. I began working on holding when I was still shooting 85#, so it's not like you have to shoot 40# to be able to do it either.

Snap shooting was one of the worst habits I picked up and I would hope no one else would struggle as badly as I did (and do at times) over coming it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You should be able to shoot your heaviest bow with the exact same form as a 20# one. Maybe not for as many arrows, but it should be the same. A 2-3 second hold is fine, so long as you are getting good expansion and its a consistent hold length.

Lets get one thing straight: Snap shooting is NEVER a good technique if you want to be accurate. It may not be bad for short range accuracy, but it is never good. You should never be shooting a bow that you can't hold while shooting. Many people can hold a bow way beyond what they can control up until they start trying to hit something with it, then they can't get it to anchor. That is the danger of buying a trad bow in a shop where you can't test it.

-Grant


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

kegan said:


> You're sacrificing a lot of accuracy just touching anchor.


Disagree, as long as you are consistent then accuracy and consistent accuracy will follow, and some archers shoot worse when they hold. I don't see snap shooting as a problem unless its not a deliberate action. 

The biggest problem with holding is you can develop very serious *target panic*, especially at high draw weights so if you want to shoot heavy you need to adapt. I can't use the same technique I used for 25# target recurve as for a 55# hunting bow, just can't. There is no way to relax like you can with a low weight. Heavy bows change all sorts of positions and angles due to the compression of your body straining to draw the bow. You can try to shoot the same but you will have to lower the draw weight which is not always ideal or possible.

Again, holding a just one technique and there are many of them. Choosing the right one is the key. Its like back-tension releases, its not for everyone. 

There have been plenty of archers that have been successful using snap shooting.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

I shoot bows in the 50-55lb range and I'm not a he man, but I do "hold" (actually not holding) at anchor, you can do it in my opinion if you use form that doesn't work against you. Hunching over will not allow you to get into good alignmnet. I would bet that hunched over your draw length is shorter than if you drew the bow like Kegan is pictured. And if the concept at anchor is to hold, you are missing the point, the concept is to continue to pull. Once you stop pulling you will either snap shoot or collapse your form or probably both.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Destroyer said:


> Disagree, as long as you are consistent then accuracy and consistent accuracy will follow, and some archers shoot worse when they hold. I don't see snap shooting as a problem unless its not a deliberate action.
> 
> The biggest problem with holding is you can develop very serious *target panic*, especially at high draw weights so if you want to shoot heavy you need to adapt. I can't use the same technique I used for 25# target recurve as for a 55# hunting bow, just can't. There is no way to relax like you can with a low weight. Heavy bows change all sorts of positions and angles due to the compression of your body straining to draw the bow. You can try to shoot the same but you will have to lower the draw weight which is not always ideal or possible.
> 
> ...


+1

You just have to be conditioned properly to shoot this way...Many aren't...and they grab a heavy poundage bow and expect to shoot it like they do a Olympic style 35 lb bow...It isn't going to work as good (if at all )...as when the muscles are conditioned properly to handle the weight..Most folks will never be consistent doing this..especially beginners to the sport.It takes time and physical as well as mental conditioning.. 

While this style is never accepted as being "correct" by target shooters...folks have been doing this far longer than any Olympic style of shooting..and truth be told...it really is not meant to be a target style of shooting...It's just a style used for killing ...not scoring points by those who use it.

Target shooting is a whole different world..and to be successful at it..you have to approach it from a target shooting perspective..and always strive for perfection of form according to those who choose this style...A heavy weight bow won't allow that in a unconditioned person..and damn hard even for someone who is..Killing game is totally different ballgame..dead is dead...and for those of us who do snap shoot..consistency in how we shoot...is the key..I don't always snap shoot..but I don't always stand upright and aim & hold either..I can do both..and not worry when I go hunting...I can shoot from any position I choose to...and am not limited to shooting from only 1 because of having to have a perfect body posture to be able shoot..Big difference here...and there are those who won't agree..because it isn't how they do it..or how they have been taught..or because of what the target shooting community preaches..or what someone wrote a book on...or did a video on...but..it is a fact of life...

If I were going to compete ( and have any expectations to win on a regular basis)..then I would have a target bow and use it in a conducive manner that is going to allow me the best chances to win.....so...common sense says to use the best tool in the best manner for the job at hand..it's really as simple as that. I wouldn't swing a tack hammer to drive a nail like I would a 24 oz framing hammer..Target shooting to me, _at it's best, takes a lot of finesse_..not just brute force...and is the same for any other sport of pin point accuracy...hence the lighter bow will allow you this luxury...but don't ever discount a person with hunting bow who hunts primarily...from all types of positions..they too can be very successful at what they do as well..It's just 2 totally different styles...

Mac


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

I'd drop down in weight until your groups get tighter. Also would consider a bow-like drawing exerciser (they're very cheap, and do work).


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

I wish snap shooters would give their 300 round scores .....

Some FACTS to back up shooting claims would be appreciated !!!


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

IAIS604

Come on now, you know that is not going to happen because they don't shoot targets, lol. I always think that anything I shoot whether paper, foam or flesh is my intended target.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

MAC 11700 said:


> I can do both..and not worry when I go hunting...I can shoot from any position I choose to...and am not limited to shooting from only 1 because of having to have a perfect body posture to be able shoot..


Yep. Cant do that if you have to break down your shot sequence each time you shoot.

Like I said before there isn't one way of shooting that is the 'correct' way. Snap shooting works.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

IAIS604 said:


> I wish snap shooters would give their 300 round scores .....
> 
> Some FACTS to back up shooting claims would be appreciated !!!


What exactly does a 300 round score have to do with snap shooting for some hunting situations ? Last time I looked...there was no bulls eyes painted on any critter I ever hunted...

Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Mac 

The problem I have with your thinking is someone using form based on target form can't execute a shot in a hunting situation. Snap Shooting is not the exclusive way to shoot in a hunting situation. I'll admit animals do not stand still but there is a benefit to executing a controlled shot in many situations, and that for me is better shot placement.

And there is a bullseye on every animal I have shot, I pick a spot. Is that any different than a 3D target or focusing on the bullseye.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> I shoot bows in the 50-55lb range and I'm not a he man, but I do "hold" (actually not holding) at anchor, you can do it in my opinion if you use form that doesn't work against you. Hunching over will not allow you to get into good alignmnet. I would bet that hunched over your draw length is shorter than if you drew the bow like Kegan is pictured. And if the concept at anchor is to hold, you are missing the point, the concept is to continue to pull. Once you stop pulling you will either snap shoot or collapse your form or probably both.


Sorry...this is the definition of snap shooting a bow...at least...the one I have always known...https://www.bigoakarcheryclub.com/Archery_Definitions.php



> Snap shooting: Releasing the arrow without pausing to aim carefully.


Snap shooting is not a premature release...which is what many people are calling or thinking..Most who can indeed snap shoot well..aren't releasing early..they are releasing the arrow in a controlled manner where they choose to release it..wither they have a static release...or a pull through..They just aren't pausing..to aim...or set..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> Mac
> 
> The problem I have with your thinking is someone using form based on target form can't execute a shot in a hunting situation. Snap Shooting is not the exclusive way to shoot in a hunting situation. I'll admit animals do not stand still but there is a benefit to executing a controlled shot in many situations, and that for me is better shot placement.
> 
> And there is a bullseye on every animal I have shot, I pick a spot. Is that any different than a 3D target or focusing on the bullseye.


No...there is no one scoring your hit for standings or a prize...and yes...your right...I am saying someone who knows only Olympic style shooting will not be able to hunt from all positions in the feild many of us may encounter..It limits them where as other styles do not..I never said snap shooting was the only way to hunt LongStick...I said it is just 1 style..

Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Then if it is a functional shot, how do you teach someone to shoot that way. There is so much criticism about using target form and breaking down the shot. That part of a "target" sequence is in the learning phase. You don't really believe an Olympic archer is doing that. They have a shot rhythm that is different than a hunter, that is true, but they are not going fro step 1 to 10. They have enough shots in practice for that. Hunters can benefit from using form that gets the most out of their equipment, and that means proper alignment, other wise you are cheating yourself.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

There are many, many Oly/FSR shooters who also hunt. I don't know too many people who exclusively hunt, who could then perform with an Oly set-up.

I shoot with someone who has a very fluid draw/shoot sequence. He's one of the best that I've ever seen and makes some very impressive hits, but he doesn't come close to the consistency of the folks using a more classic target technique. 
I'd also say that RangerB's statement about the form he uses being very similar for both target and hunting, combined with his many pictures of game taken with selfbows from the ground pretty much puts this one to bed.

But hey, snap-shoot all you want. Its not like hunting requires much accuracy, or there would be a lot of empty freezers out there.
-Grant


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

LongStick64 said:


> They have a shot rhythm that is different than a hunter, that is true, but they are not going fro step 1 to 10.


Actually they do.



LongStick64 said:


> Hunters can benefit from using form that gets the most out of their equipment, and that means proper alignment, other wise you are cheating yourself.


No your not cheating yourself. Its about developing consistency and accuracy over everything and some ppl shoot better even though its not correct according to the coaching manual. 

The problem I have with the 'target' method is its assumes that the archer will be better off regardless. That if you have proper alignment and shot sequence all will be good. When shoot *high poundage recurves* its not that simple and I don't think it is for any bow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Destroyer said:


> No your not cheating yourself. Its about developing consistency and accuracy over everything and some ppl shoot better even though its not correct according to the coaching manual.
> 
> The problem I have with the 'target' method is its assumes that the archer will be better off regardless. That if you have proper alignment and shot sequence all will be good. When shoot *high poundage recurves* its not that simple and I don't think it is for any bow.


I shoot my 70# yew selfbow with the same form and technique as my 32# indoor rig. I don't practice with anything more then 40#, but shooting the 70# bow is no problem. Holding 2-4 seconds for a couple dozen shots isn't a challenge. I can adapt either one to any reasonable shooting position, including near vertical and around obsticles.
The only way you will really see the advantage of good form is shooting scored rounds, not stumping or shooting one arrow groups.

-Grant


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> There are many, many Oly/FSR shooters who also hunt. I don't know too many people who exclusively hunt, who could then perform with an Oly set-up.
> 
> I shoot with someone who has a very fluid draw/shoot sequence. He's one of the best that I've ever seen and makes some very impressive hits, but he doesn't come close to the consistency of the folks using a more classic target technique.
> I'd also say that RangerB's statement about the form he uses being very similar for both target and hunting, combined with his many pictures of game taken with selfbows from the ground pretty much puts this one to bed.
> ...


Grant...I agree...many who primarily hunt with a regular trad bow wouldn't do good with a full blown Olympic rig..This isn't the point being made..

I know a quite a few tournament archers who have empty freezers...Big Deal...what the hell do this prove ?

Everyone is different...and just like I said before...use the right tool..and the right style that best suits your needs for what your doing..Just because I think my style works best for me..doesn't mean I think it is best for anyone..no way do I...but I damn sure know what is best for me..and how & where I hunt...

There really isn't anything to _put to bed on this._. No one person's style is best for anyone..I don't discount yours..Rangers..Sharp's..LongStick's or anyone...but you sure all do discount someone else who don't shoot like you do...Why is that...?

You only have to be good enough to put your arrow into the vitals of whatever you are hunting at what ever distances you are hunting...competitive target archery is not so forgiving..if your in it to win... and what someone does on the line does not mean they will be 100% successful under all conditions in the feild..just as what someone does in the feild...does not mean they will be 100% successful on the line...

Go back and read what I said...



> Target shooting is a whole different world..and to be successful at it..you have to approach it from a target shooting perspective..and always strive for perfection of form according to those who choose this style...A heavy weight bow won't allow that in a unconditioned person..and damn hard even for someone who is..Killing game is totally different ballgame..dead is dead...and for those of us who do snap shoot..consistency in how we shoot...is the key..I don't always snap shoot..but I don't always stand upright and aim & hold either..I can do both..and not worry when I go hunting...I can shoot from any position I choose to...and am not limited to shooting from only 1 because of having to have a perfect body posture to be able shoot..Big difference here...and there are those who won't agree..because it isn't how they do it..or how they have been taught..or because of what the target shooting community preaches..or what someone wrote a book on...or did a video on...but..it is a fact of life...


Mac


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

grantmac said:


> the only way you will really see the advantage of good form is shooting scored rounds, not stumping or shooting one arrow groups.
> 
> -grant


:thumbs_up


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

Here's a novel idea: I'm willing to bet that most good stickbow guys can learn to speed up their shots in fair short order, if they haven't a;ready practiced doing that, and still maintain close to their accuracy potential. I wonder how many snap shooters can hold for a few seconds on every shot and hit anything? 

The difference is pretty simple, it's called control. One shooter is in control of every part of his shot and the other just thinks he is. 

Most of the people I know who can shoot quickly and accurately started pretty slowly and deliberately. That's a world apart from the guy who started off over bowed and no longer has as choice. 

The most glaring problem with the Internet is that we can't see any body shoot, except for the occasional videos. 

Viper1 out.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Holding 2-4 seconds for a couple dozen shots isn't a challenge


But once you have anchored why is there a need to hold for so long? What benefit is there? And remember we are talking about a heavy recurve. I don't see any need to prolong the release and I can see lots of problems deliberately holding. Can you guess a few?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Destroyer said:


> Actually they do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Some people just refuse to think outside of their self made boxes.

There are so many different aspects to our sport there is NOT a one size fits all or ANY particular method or technique that is better under all conditions and situations.

Target archers and bowhunters who think their way is the only correct way need to get off their high horses and acknowledge the reality of how one size does NOT fit all.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Viper is correct. If you have control, you should have the same control and be able to vary the timing of the shot, faster or slower. Sound easy, heck no it ain't. Matter of fact, slowing down is harder to control for many of us, as our tendency is to rush what we feel is the best timing of the shot cycle over what is the best timing. The only way to know if a snapper has control over his shot is to slow him down. I mean, would we suggest a rifle shooter snap shoot at deer if he can't even accurately shoot under a normal aim hold.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I was a snap shooter my whole life and killed a lot of deer that way but I will have to admit I short stroked a lot of those shots 

I reinvented my shooting and now I pause for a second or two and it has helped me be more consistant 

I don't think anyone is saying you can not be successful snap shooting but I think it can lead to problems in some. It did for me


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The truth of the matter is that speed is not the indicator of whether an archer is control of their shot or not.

The true indicator of whether an archer is in control of their shot is how CONSISTENT they are and with the results of their shot.

Here's a a great video that contradicts anyone who insists or implies that speed is the indicator of a controled shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU

Check it out 2 min into the video.

Ray :shade:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There are so many different aspects to our sport there is NOT a one size fits all or ANY particular method or technique that is better under all conditions and situations.


Exactly. My worry is how quickly a certain method becomes the only one, the correct way. Archers need to be able to think for themselves and not be afraid to try new/old things and see how it goes.



JParanee said:


> I was a snap shooter my whole life and killed a lot of deer that way


It works!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Destroyer said:


> But once you have anchored why is there a need to hold for so long? What benefit is there? And remember we are talking about a heavy recurve. I don't see any need to prolong the release and I can see lots of problems deliberately holding. Can you guess a few?


Simple: backtension and expansion.
I don't know why you keep bringing up the heavy recurve as though its some completely different class of bow. Its just a heavier draw-weight, you should shoot it the same way you shoot any other stick bow.
The guys shooting the heaviest weight in the Trad world are the warbow archers, and they hold the shot until they hit their correct elevation. That is because so much of the challenge of warbow shooting is controlling the bow.

There is a world of difference between shooting slowly and being unable to slow down. Almost all snap shooters can't slow down, and that gets to be a real bugger when the deer you're stalking suddenly looks right at you mid-draw.

I also do pistol shooting. Speed steel, falling plate and a few other go-fast games. You don't just start shooting fast, you shoot to get your hits and as you increase skill they get faster. Approaching archery in the opposite direction is putting the cart way infront of the horse.

Mac:
I was refencing how successful many Oly/FSR/Barebow shooters are with other trad equipment and at hunting. Where most of the squat and snap trad shooters can't claim much in the accuracy department.
I believe these characters knew a thing about hunting and the form speaks for itself:


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Target archers and bowhunters who think their way is the only correct way need to get off their high horses and acknowledge the reality of how one size does NOT fit all."

"Exactly. My worry is how quickly a certain method becomes the only one, the correct way. Archers need to be able to think for themselves and not be afraid to try new/old things and see how it goes."

There may be THE perfect form for shooting, but many of us aren't perfect, and some do not have the option to be that either, we have to play the cards life has delt us and in doing so may have to discover ways that we can be as consistant as possible without being that perfect form shooter....I have had 2 C5-C6 breaks surgically repaired, and a third break to the same area that was too severe for surgery.......I was told to never, ever shoot a bow again..... of any type... of any weight.... for the rest of my life......but as some of you know I shoot stickbows now in the 80-90# range......I did it by thinking outside the box and doing things that may not be perfect for others but are perfect for me, I do what I have to do to to keep shoting and it has given me a new outlook on life, heck it has given me a life compared to what the docs left me with..... hard work and determination may not get me the gold, but it keeps me shooting, now I can shoot with perfect form... but I cannot do it for long and it is very painfull so I have to stop, and usually cannot shoot for a few days afterwards because of the pain it has caused.......but shooting my imperfect way, I can shoot these heavy bows all day long with a smile on my face instead of a grimace......There is more than one way to skin a cat.....and sometimes you have to jump outside the box to do it..........consistancy rules.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Simple: backtension and expansion.
> I don't know why you keep bringing up the heavy recurve as though its some completely different class of bow. Its just a heavier draw-weight, you should shoot it the same way you shoot any other stick bow.
> The guys shooting the heaviest weight in the Trad world are the warbow archers, and they hold the shot until they hit their correct elevation. That is because so much of the challenge of warbow shooting is controlling the bow.
> 
> ...


Grant..Form ...or what some believe form is..is not the holy grail to consistency....except to a target archer for their shot routine.....You can have perfect body alignment and not hit your mark..Consistency is being able to control what your hands are doing with the bow and the string under varying conditions..That is the big difference many fail to comprehend.

Pure measurable accuracy in group size is not part of this equation...but somehow is always used as a pre-qualifier for those who don't full comprehend what some folks are doing..or disagree because it isn't what they do..It's just a different mind set...Why ?

Target shooters work in fractions of inches..and rely on the smallest group as a measure of success...Each shot..and following shots are used to score points.Many( not all) hunters don't..they rely on being able to make a killing shot...and group size isn't of that great importance...as to being able to put 1 arrow in the kill zone( not the highest scoring area on the target ) every time..on the 1st shot..is the most important..It is a totally different mind set..and conditioning for those who primarily hunt do when hunting...not target shooting... especially when dealing with a heavy weight bow.
We each have our comfort zone where we work the best within it..and no 2 people are the same..We all have a routine we do when shooting..some need that pause right before release to complete that routine..others don't..all the time...and you have to remember this...Some people are more adaptable than others..and can still make a killing shot if that routine is disrupted...
What you aren't seeing is how the bow is being shot..and are making assumptions I think because the person shooting is not shooting for groups...or as you stated in having to let down if a deer is looking at you..This isn't a issue all the time Grant...The majority of folks I know that do snap shoot( myself included )..never draw until they are ready to release..There is no pre-draw..and then on to full draw..pause..set..release..It is 1 fluid motion from start to finish and done quickly..Back muscles are still used..expansion is still accomplished..tension is minimum..and the shot on the game is made..Depending on the archers skill set...it doesn't matter if the person is standing..kneeling..or laying down..The routine is still done because the person is capable of executing the shot from odd positions..They have practiced it repeatedly until it has become part of their style..They don't draw and release till they are ready..They aren't holding the bow at partial or full draw for any length of time..Not all people snap shoot all the time..I know I don't..I utilize both methods as needed..

Some hunters do indeed make group size a vital importance to their practice sessions..and is how they rate their-selves..It is nice to see how we progress and how well we can do this at various distances..but..good groups to many hunters have little meaning..If they aren't shot from the positions used in the field..it is meaningless...and even then it is not something that is going to guarantee 100% results..It may be vital to those shooting from a elevated tree stand with good footing..and just a few shooting lanes but..to those on the ground..group size is not the primary thing..being able to put that arrow in where it needs to go is..from any position it is shot from..So..both type of hunters..look at things differently..and rank their importance on their requirements.. It's not a 1 size fits all approach to good shooting..

One thing for sure..and I do agree on for myself at-least (not others )..a person must be able to draw and hold his bow *regardless of the weight* without allowing the bow hand/arm to collapse or the string hand to release..and the string hand must be able to release cleanly without plucking the string..The reason is simple..if they can do this..then they have conditioned their muscles enough to handle the weight...if they can't..then they shouldn't use that weight of bow...and I have always stressed to anyone picking up a heavy bow..they must be physically able to do this..otherwise more harm than good can come from it..

Lastly...if a person is prematurely releasing the string..they will never be consistently accurate..but this is not snap shooting...and has been confused and mislabeled as that..


Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Mac you said Consistency is the key to success, practicing form is a sure way to get consistent results. Form is not limited to just drawing the bow but to aiming as well. Solid form is used to place you in a consistent position to aim from. So solid, repeatable form is essential in that respect. The concept that shot number 1 is the most important is not lost on any tournament shooter. Some of us have been coached to think this way on every shot, to forget the last shot and ONLY focus on the present shot. Let me say I am not opposed to any format of shooting, as long as the archer is accurate. But if you think that there is much of a difference in an archer that shoots targets and a hunter that shoots animals, I don't see it. I do both and I approach every situation as my target. What works for me may not work for you, but that does not mean it is impossible.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> Mac you said Consistency is the key to success, practicing form is a sure way to get consistent results. Form is not limited to just drawing the bow but to aiming as well. Solid form is used to place you in a consistent position to aim from. So solid, repeatable form is essential in that respect. The concept that shot number 1 is the most important is not lost on any tournament shooter. Some of us have been coached to think this way on every shot, to forget the last shot and ONLY focus on the present shot. Let me say I am not opposed to any format of shooting, as long as the archer is accurate. But if you think that there is much of a difference in an archer that shoots targets and a hunter that shoots animals, I don't see it. I do both and I approach every situation as my target. What works for me may not work for you, but that does not mean it is impossible.


I agree 100%...and always have..The issue I have is what some are calling snap shooting..when it isn't..I too do both target shooting and hunting..but know full well for (myself) that they 2 are totally separate mindsets..used...

I know good form is important to good accuracy..many of us who shoot the way we do..practice it without even knowing it..hence we don't put as much emphasis on it....or make a deliberate attempt to isolate it and practice it...but...it is not limited to just 1 style of shooting..as in how a person stands and shoots.A persons physical and mental makeup will determine what they can or can't do consistently..It's not nor has ever been a 1 size fits all...but there are many here that believe it is.

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm betting the biggest issue here is actually an argument over shooting quickly vs. actual snap shooting. Snap shooting is the inabillity to hold, and is what I suffered (suffer) from. It's evil and bad and no, it isn't an acceptable way to shoot.

Shooting quickly on the other hand is not bad, is simply a shot where less time elapses. Even on my "slow" shots it doesn't take more than a few seconds to go from relaxed to arrow in the target. Likewise, snap shooting doesn't magically allow you to shoot from awkard positions, just as straight up or "target form" resitrcts you from doing so. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that "target" style has helped my out of position shots too. Just because you're kneeling or bending over doesn't mean you can't line your shoulders, bow, anchor, and arrow up the same way. Even out of position I hold for a moment (it helps me aim, I need it, and I'd vote most folks benefit from a second at anchor to correct their aim- whether consciously or not).

The big gap between "hunting form" and "target form" is a bunch of silliness in my opinion. Good form is good form. Consistency is consistency. If you're not in control of the shot, which is what real snap shooting is, then you aren't shooting well. Period. If you are shooting well, then you're just shooting quickly, and not snap shooting. Why some folks insist that "target form" means Olympic style is beyond me, when often many of the archers shooting "hunting form" look just like many shooting at paper or foam critters?

Anyway, all of this is distracting from the OP, which was about shooting a heavy bow. Regardless of your tempo, you should be able to maintain control. It seems fairly obvious that the OP doesn't yet have control. Simple enough.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> I'm betting the biggest issue here is actually an argument over shooting quickly vs. actual snap shooting. *Snap shooting is the inabillity to hold,* and is what I suffered (suffer) from. It's evil and bad and no, it isn't an acceptable way to shoot.
> 
> Shooting quickly on the other hand is not bad, is simply a shot where less time elapses. Even on my "slow" shots it doesn't take more than a few seconds to go from relaxed to arrow in the target. Likewise, snap shooting doesn't magically allow you to shoot from awkard positions, just as straight up or "target form" resitrcts you from doing so. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that "target" style has helped my out of position shots too. Just because you're kneeling or bending over doesn't mean you can't line your shoulders, bow, anchor, and arrow up the same way. Even out of position I hold for a moment (it helps me aim, I need it, and I'd vote most folks benefit from a second at anchor to correct their aim- whether consciously or not).
> 
> ...


No...it is not just the ability to hold the string Kegan...

If you draw your bow back and can not hold the string till you get to full draw or when at whatever draw point you want to release the string...it is a premature release...NOT snap shooting..

There is a major difference between what your problem was..and what snap shooting really is when done correctly..You could not handle the weight of the bow..and could not get to where you needed to be in the draw..Nothing more..Just because being able to pause has helped you and your shooting style..does not mean it will be beneficial to everyone..If you were physically conditioned to hold more weight on your string hand fingers and on your bow arm/hands..you would be able to shoot a heavier draw weight bow better..no matter what style you shoot...

Mac


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> No...it is not just the ability to hold the string Kegan...
> 
> If you draw your bow back and can not hold the string till you get to full draw or when at whatever draw point you want to release the string...it is a premature release...NOT snap shooting..
> 
> ...


Mac: Can you hold on target or do you only snap shoot?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Simple: backtension and expansion.


I agree, two big problems.



MAC 11700 said:


> it is a premature release...NOT snap shooting..


Yep.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Mac: Can you hold on target or do you only snap shoot?


Like I said before...I do both with my bows.

Mac


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Like I said before...I do both with my bows.
> 
> Mac


Can you hold once you're completely on target? I don't mean hold the bow without and arrow nocked or pointing away from the target. Because I see lots of shooters who can hold forever with weights way past their regular DW so long as they aren't pointing at a target. Thats the trap of pulling a trad bow in the store without shooting it.
Heck I can hold 90# without too much issue so long as I'm not pointing at something I don't want to hit.
I haven't seen any snap shooters who can pause once their shot sequence has started, but they can all hold no problem so long as they are off the target.

I admit that if I've decided to make a fast shot I find it difficult to hold the sequence, but if I commit to holding before I start, the bow weight doesn't matter much.
Also keep in mind I've had a wicked case of TP in the past that wouldn't let me anchor or hold on target in any way, all front shooting a bow that I couldn't completely dominate. I still shot pretty average, but now my shooting is many times better.

-Grant

P.S. Before anyone brings it up: I shoots movers and arials from a hold with an upper-body swing, much like shooting skeet.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

uhmm,,,i can snap-shoot my 54# Bob Lee TD Hunter pretty good..i think...for my 53 year old azz anyways..but i will admit..ever since Ranger B and Moebow helped me start getting some "form" going with my 44# longbow?..i dont like to snapshoot the Bob Lee too much as it starts breaking down that form..but this was a vid prior to any coaching at all and the way i always shot my 54# recurve..here's 3 shots fletched 3 bare..and if i'm pausing at all?..it's for less than 1/2 a second..but i'm lining up and aiming all throughout the draw process..

http://Jinkster.vidmeup.com/view?q=4f0cc8a841797.flv


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Can you hold once you're completely on target? I don't mean hold the bow without and arrow nocked or pointing away from the target. Because I see lots of shooters who can hold forever with weights way past their regular DW so long as they aren't pointing at a target. Thats the trap of pulling a trad bow in the store without shooting it.
> Heck I can hold 90# without too much issue so long as I'm not pointing at something I don't want to hit.
> I haven't seen any snap shooters who can pause once their shot sequence has started, but they can all hold no problem so long as they are off the target.
> 
> ...


To answer your question..yes..I can hold on target for about 1/2-3/4 a minute maybe a little more without letting down or ruining my aim..

I use both methods of shooting Grant..and it depends on the situation...as in yardage..obstructions..animal alertness..and a bunch of other factors..FWIW...even with my compounds..I had the let off set to 50% regardless the poundages..I got more benifit doing that way..and didn't have to modify my shot routine nearly as much..

Both methods are benificial to a hunter if used properly...while not as much use to someone who mainly target shoots..I do indeed know this...and I'm not advocating 1 in place of the other for anyone...but...as others have said..it's time some think outside the box.....and to do that..we have to look at what others are doing...even if it goes against what a few say what is the "proper or best way " of shooting..

I know full well...what gives me my best accuracy out to 50-60 yards...just as I know in rifle shooting what gives me the best accuracy out to 600-800 yards..and that is being consistent as I can what ever I am shooting..I know my limitations..and only push them when I am hunting when I have the highest expectations that something isn't going to be at risk of getting wounded..


Flying game for me..is pure snap shooting in that I get the arrow to the bird as fast as I can..It has always worked for me doing it this way..With a shot gun..unless I am jump shooting without any dogs..I track just as you do..Jump shooting is a more open choke depending on the type of shot or type of bird and distances they are getting up..Pass shooting is always tracking..

Mac


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Some people just refuse to think outside of their self made boxes.
> 
> There are so many different aspects to our sport there is NOT a one size fits all or ANY particular method or technique that is better under all conditions and situations.
> 
> ...


A very good post, but I'm betting it changes no one's mind. Too bad.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, I'm not sure where you got that it was the weight of the bow that started me snap shooting, maybe I wasn't clear (very possible) but at no time was I struggling to hold the given draw weights. I started snap shooting with a light weight bow after reading and watching Asbell's insctructions and getting the wrong impressions. Shooting quickly like that, combined with ignoring the arrow, led to the problem I still suffer from at times, and that's releasing before the arrow is aligned/aimed to the target or a proper anchor is achieved. Both bad, both from "snap shooting". 

At no point was I ever unable to handle the given draw weight. I progressed slowly up through the different weight ranges and began slowing down when I was shooting 85#, by holding the 85# bow at full draw for a second or two. 

I have no doubt that shooting quickly can achieve excellent levels of accuracy, but that's still not "snap shooting" in my opinion, just shooting with a quicker tempo.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I got that from what you posted..



> *I'm betting the biggest issue here is actually an argument over shooting quickly vs. actual snap shooting.Snap shooting is the inabillity to hold*, and is what I suffered (suffer) from.


Again...snap shooting is not holding on the target Kegan...and if you couldn't hold that weight what ever it was/is...if it 30 lbs...or even up to 100 lbs...*if you can't hold it on target until you have aimed and set properly..it is called a premature release.*..it is not snap shooting..Snap shooting when done properly is controlled... There are some who try to demonize this style of shooting...so they attribute it to what you are doing...and a host of other things..just to make it look bad...It's not when used properly..just as setting and aiming isn't bad...It's just a different style of shooting that gets blamed for peoples problems..Sure...some people just grip it and rip it and can't hit the broadside of a barn with it..but I know people who pause and aim that do the same thing..

Both styles take practice...Kegan...and lots of it to be any good at it..some can..some can't..for both..

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

tell ya what guys..while i wanna learn true good form?..and purchased my 44# longbow not only to compliment my 54# recurve but to have a lighter weight stick that i can set and hold without shaking?..while the good form with a light draw bow may win me high scores on foam targets?..i don't ever want to lose what little snap shooting skills i do have cause i've jumped many a buck two-stepping in my day and know enough that in those cases?..snap-shooting is the only way you'd get'em..cause if that arrow aint drawn/anchored and off the shelf in less than 3 seconds?...he's gone...you can let down now. LOL! Also?..i take great pride in the fact that i do have the ability to line things up during and throughout my draw..truth be known?..i'd of scored higher on that last 3D i went to had i snap shot my 54# Bob Lee than attempt to form shoot my longbow like i did..just because i've been shooting it longer and doing things that way longer..and i know the day will soon come that i form shoot my 44# longbow more consistantly accurate than my recurve but..the longbow wont be going hunting with me..that ones for killing foam and playing all-day-long poke-a-dot only..just like my 54# recurve will be the only one doning broadheads..and when "The Shot" presents itself?..there wont be any holding at anchor and settling it and gapping or any of that other form based BS..it's gonna be one fast fluid motion and more than likely from a rather awkward non-ideal position..there wont be any stakes..no flourecent lighting...no checking out stance or position and?..if i'm caught holding at anchor?..

it's because the opportunity was missed and the deers already blown and gone. :laugh:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Perhaps I'm just more of a "crawl, walk then run" sort of fellow. Its a bit like trying to teach someone how to shoot a bow using only ariel targets, I'm sure they will eventually figure out how to hit them; but at what cost to their progress and overall accuracy?
I've taught quite a few people how to shoot pistols and carbines, including how to shoot quickly. It all starts with slow deliberate fire, once you get the hits then the speed can be increased.
With a bow as with every other weapon, there is always a balance of speed and accuracy. If you are only capable of speed, then its unlikely you will be accurate.

-Grant


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Perhaps I'm just more of a "crawl, walk then run" sort of fellow. Its a bit like trying to teach someone how to shoot a bow using only ariel targets, I'm sure they will eventually figure out how to hit them; but at what cost to their progress and overall accuracy?
> I've taught quite a few people how to shoot pistols and carbines, including how to shoot quickly. It all starts with slow deliberate fire, once you get the hits then the speed can be increased.
> With a bow as with every other weapon, there is always a balance of speed and accuracy. If you are only capable of speed, then its unlikely you will be accurate.
> 
> -Grant


Your right...100%

Slow then increase speed but...in control of what your doing..is the only way...You can't learn how to drive a Indy 500 as easily until you learn how to drive a car..You have to know how to handle yourself..and your equipment ...No one I know can..and no one I know who snap shoots adequately enough to make good kill shots can..It takes just as much if not more control,focus,and dedication to learning as with other style..If the bow is too heavy..control goes out the window...1 thing though you don't need to be able to hold it as long as what most guys can do with a 30-40 lb. bow..but you have to be strong enough to draw it with minimum movement smoothly..hold it for a little bit..and then either let it down just as smoothly with out releasing the arrow...or releasing the arrow cleanly....Being able to do this means you can handle the weight safely....Flinging arrows down range in a haphazard fashion is not snap shooting...no matter what any one calls it...Some may like to believe they are snap shooting doing that...but... using the same analogy I used above...driving a car to church is not driving in a Indy 500 race...2 way different things...

With proper practice..being able to draw, holding it at full draw..and letting down smoothly will increase as well as being able to shoot it quicker..and we all know the benifits of being able to draw smoothly,hold the bow at full draw..and release the arrow cleanly

For myself...it's very benificial to be able to shoot both ways....since I use and have used both successfully many times..and it is something I recommend to learn if you don't know how to...especially if you are a hunter..I know some have a hard enough time just mastering 1 way of shooting let alone 2...but....I honestly believe you will gain more if you do..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> Your right...100%
> 
> Slow then increase speed but...in control of what your doing..is the only way...You can't learn how to drive a Indy 500 as easily until you learn how to drive a car..You have to know how to handle yourself..and your equipment ...No one I know can..and no one I know who snap shoots adequately enough to make good kill shots can..It takes just as much if not more control,focus,and dedication to learning as with other style..If the bow is too heavy..control goes out the window...1 thing though you don't need to be able to hold it as long as what most guys can do with a 30-40 lb. bow..but you have to be strong enough to draw it with minimum movement smoothly..hold it for a little bit..and then either let it down just as smoothly with out releasing the arrow...or releasing the arrow cleanly....Being able to do this means you can handle the weight safely....Flinging arrows down range in a haphazard fashion is not snap shooting...no matter what any one calls it...Some may like to believe they are snap shooting doing that...but... using the same analogy I used above...driving a car to church is not driving in a Indy 500 race...2 way different things...
> 
> ...


All of this...is up to the individual...and since no 2 people are exactly alike...it will take some much longer to learn than others..if they can learn that is..Some won't..some will..

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, at this point the only issue seems to be terminology. I don't like using the term snap shooting to apply to a quick shot, because I don't really think that there's any difference between a shot where the archer pauses at anchor for several seconds or a shot where the archer releases after reaching anchor. Why? Because when I started learning to shoot I had been encouraged to learn how to "snap shoot" and that has since spoiled my appetite for that phrase. Had this only happened to me I wouldn't have _such_ a distaste as I do, but I've seen it hinder other's progress. It's just a matter of agreeing to disagree at this point.


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## Bianchijon (Jul 1, 2009)

*Heavy Bows*

One suggestion I would make is that you only shoot 3 arrows per end. Five is too many when you are trying to build up your strength and technique. If you are shooting at a blank bale for form then shoot and pull one arrow at a time.


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## wvtraditional (Sep 1, 2008)

I hold till i have mentaly went thru my anchor points and form i shoot alot so it don't take long i snap shoot my 65lb Dreamcatcher when i feel my anchor piont. I shoot way better with a 40lb bow that the heavy weight but i love to hunt with my Martin bow. I limit my self to 25 yds with it.


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry for the late entry into this thread. To the original poster I say this: believe in yourself and work up to whatever weight you want. I'll weigh in here because I feel my archery journey leaves me particularly qualified to comment. I weigh 145# and am 6' tall. Quick figuring tells you I'm a giant of epic proportion. I got in my head that I'd like to shoot a 100# bow accurately. I started out not knowing much about archery. I had a 50 and a 60# bow prior to this and handled neither particularly well. I had a form that I used because it was comfortable and I was weak. I was so blissfully ignorant. I have been trying to shoot a 100#@28" bow for four months now and have just begun to succeed. I have overcome soreness in every muscle group, blisters, lack of form limiting my draw length, and very expensive arrows getting stuck in things after missing the whole target. I drew to about 85# for a long time and became paper plate consistent at twenty yards with killer cold shot. Then one day I measured my draw and became quite upset that I was not achieving a full draw. My draw length is 30" and I was at 26". I was hitting my anchor and everything so how could this be? The answer lay in the bent bow arm that was too weak to hold any more weight initially now becoming an ingrained habit. I'd weathered target panic and snap shooting because I couldn't hold the weight and now I was in for more. Four inches more and that may as well have been a long last mile. I overcame this by sheer dedication and will enduring struggled draws with my new found form and more weight than ever. I struggled to keep the head erect and the string elbow up. I fought to keep the bow arm straight and in line with the body. Two weeks ago it happened. I had pie plate groups at twenty yards drawing at or more than 100#. My wild shots return when I fatigue, but it has been done. My next stop is 30" and that should be a few hundred draws away. I still need more endurance for my form and mental focus. When I started few had faith and there were many halfhearted good lucks. Now there is only amazement and encouragement. You can get to the point you are at with your current bow IF YOU WANT IT. No one here can stop you and I pledge my encouragement fully. Feel free to update me whenever. The bow is a thing of strength, but not all physical strength. Good Luck!



Destroyer said:


> For the modern 'hold then release' technique. Snap shooting isn't a bad habit if your consistent, it might make things harder sometimes but you don't need to hold for a long time, just touch your anchor and release. You don't want to end up shooting a 40# bow just to shoot the so called 'correct' way. Lots of critters have been shot over the years snap shooting, it works.


I believe there is a happy medium between snap shooting and camping at anchor that each archer must find to be consistent and this eventually accurate. Thanks for your attempt to shoo away the get a lighter bow crowd. I have always held that the bow requires strength and we should hold high those that achieve the strength to shoot well. Where does the idea to give up on the strength development in favor of the lightest draw weight come from? Shoot as much as you are able to well and encourage all to do the same. 



Destroyer said:


> The biggest problem with holding is you can develop very serious *target panic*, especially at high draw weights so if you want to shoot heavy you need to adapt. I can't use the same technique I used for 25# target recurve as for a 55# hunting bow, just can't. There is no way to relax like you can with a low weight. Heavy bows change all sorts of positions and angles due to the compression of your body straining to draw the bow. You can try to shoot the same but you will have to lower the draw weight which is not always ideal or possible.


Disagree that the technique has to be different to accommodate the increased draw weight. You are just not training hard enough long enough. Believe me I haven't shot any light bow other than for cursory tuning in the last three months. I am just now gaining the endurance to shoot the heavy bow at 29". This would've happened sooner, but I mostly practice alone or with folks not shooting traditional. I snapshot because I couldn't hold the weight at first and then I reached the point where I was wondering why haven't I shot yet. Extremes are no good. Too little and you may go off half cocked, too long and your mind may wander. Open your mind to the possibility that it is possible and it will be. Close your mind to any failure. Sounds like a load of crap, but if it didn't work I'd never be drawing over 100# would I? No, I'd still be playing with my 50# bow and disappointed in the results. 



MAC 11700 said:


> +1
> 
> You just have to be conditioned properly to shoot this way...Many aren't...and they grab a heavy poundage bow and expect to shoot it like they do a Olympic style 35 lb bow...It isn't going to work as good (if at all )...as when the muscles are conditioned properly to handle the weight..Most folks will never be consistent doing this..especially beginners to the sport.It takes time and physical as well as mental conditioning..
> 
> ...


Archery is about being conditioned. You can't do too much well with a bow if the majority of your time is spent inactive. Conditioning is the key to successfully shooting a decent draw weight. I do however appreciate all archers and realize that not all have the time or the physical ability to shoot heavier draw weights. It takes a lot of time and energy. 

A heavy bow will allow you the precision that a lighter bow will to the point when gear becomes a factor. Arrow straightness, grain tolerances, and all the world class stuff will be a limiter; it's just not available in that spine of arrow. Back to the point, the journey will be far longer and require exponentially more effort to achieve. If I had stuck to the 50# bow and put in the same amount of effort I'd be a very accurate and consistent archer. Unfortunately I needed the challenge of the increased draw weight in order to put in the time.
Best Regards,
Forrest


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Forrest, I don't think anyone's dimissing heavy bows, I know I certainly never would (it would make me a huge hypocrite after all:lol The thing was that if you can't handle the draw weight and aren't currently working on getting to where you can, you're just wasting your time. Likewise, power may be a goal for some, but for others accuracy is the ultimate goal. For many, trying to keep up with heavy bows while also trying to become the most accurate shot you can be is simply too much. 

I personally have dropped down to the "lightest heavy-bows" I can accurately handle for an extended period. After bows in the 75-85# range, 60-65# is rather comfortable and I'm working on pie plate accuracy at forty and fifty yards, rather than a pie plate at 20. I've always envied those who could handle such heavy bows with precision and accuracy, but I was never able to do both: shoot well day after day _and_ shoot a bow on the heavy end of my draw range.


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

I suppose it's all what you want to do in the end. I was never saying that people are dismissing heavy bows. I'm saying people need to buck up and stop blaming the weight for their inability and others need to say train harder and not get a lighter bow. I will most likely not be a pie plate shooter any time soon at fifty yards. However my first six are great at 20 to 30. 7 to 34 have their highs and lows. I haven't been as hardcore as I was and it is affecting my accuracy and stamina.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Yup...you have to train your body to pull heavier weight bows..there is no way of getting out of that..The more you train..the easier it gets to be able to shoot them accurately in time..and that is the rub...some don't want to or have the time to or the desire and patience to invest in doing it. It's just a personal choice to use one...I've seen it countless times on this forum in that it's far easier to say to someone not to get over bowed and to start out with a light weight bow...than it is to tell someone you need to be fit enough to use one and need to train to make sure they can..Some here take it wrong and take offense at it..They think it is a macho thing when it really isn't..but a factual thing..Feed the easy way to them is all I have been seeing..

I like heavier weight bows..I have always been drawn to them over the lighter easier pulling target weight bows....that doesn't mean I dislike target weight bows....they have their respected place and always will...but..if you want or need to be able to cast a the heavier arrows faster..with our trad bows..you still need the extra draw weight to do it..That's the key to almost ever argument on the subject here and elsewhere...wants & needs...I have seen way too many people making blanket statements by telling others that they don't need a faster heavier arrow to hunt with..when they shouldn't be making assumptions for someone else and their wants & needs..

We all hunt differently..and we all have our own wants & needs..and that's the way it will always be..

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MAC, I think the big push towards lighter bows is because lighter bows are the easiest way to help folks learn to shoot better, and the real issue is that many times we see a growing trend towards a lower level of accuracy being acceptable with the idea to use gear that will turn a marginal hit into a lethal one. Walk before you run anology. If they can't shoot well and want to go hunting, but obviously haven't been putting in the time to master a traditional bow, let alone a heavier hunting bow, it stands to reason that telling them to almost "try it again" would be good advice. The advice isn't to go get a 40# bow and just use that, but rather learn how to shoot well with 40#, then 50#, then 60#, and then 70# if you desire. Simple as that. I can see how the constant badgering for lighter bows can be misconstrued as a dismissal of heavier bows in favor of lighter ones, but that should only be during the learning stage.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> MAC, I think the big push towards lighter bows is because lighter bows are the easiest way to help folks learn to shoot better, and the real issue is that many times we see a growing trend towards a lower level of accuracy being acceptable with the idea to use gear that will turn a marginal hit into a lethal one.


One day...you will learn...easier isn't always better Bro,it's just easier. Let me give you some advise from a person who has actually hunted with trad bows for 49 years..I would rather have a marginal hit with a heavier weighted bow than a lighter weighted bow..Why...because I know full well..that if I have the proper angle *I* will have the needed momentum to make it into the vitals on big game,because of the arrow weight I am shooting...I will also have the advantage of a better trajectory than someone shooting a heavier arrow off of a lighter bow..I also know that you can be the most accurate person in the world shooting on targets only to have a perfect hit turn into a marginal one in a split second on a live animal..I've had that happen several times..I have also used light weight bows and have that happen...which is why I shoot what I shoot.It's not something you want to have happen..but..it does...even to the best hunters in the world...That is a reality check. There are those who play this off in a number of ways..but in the end...facts are facts....a heavier poundage bows gives some advantages a lighter bow can't..What you have to remember is not all who take this up hunt in the same way..or at the same yardage..




> Walk before you run anology. If they can't shoot well and want to go hunting, but obviously haven't been putting in the time to master a traditional bow, let alone a heavier hunting bow, it stands to reason that telling them to almost "try it again" would be good advice.


The problem with this analogy is it isn't a 1 size fits all approach to what the OP's issue is..Being consistent is..A adult person can learn how to be consistent with a heavier weighted bow,provided they are physical fit enough in the first place..If they aren't..and want to learn how to use what they have,being stronger is the first step in accomplishing this..then they can learn as they should for what they are using it for..We aren't infants..we are adults..common sense is common sense..




> The advice isn't to go get a 40# bow and just use that, but rather learn how to shoot well with 40#, then 50#, then 60#, and then 70# if you desire. Simple as that. I can see how the constant badgering for lighter bows can be misconstrued as a dismissal of heavier bows in favor of lighter ones, but that should only be during the learning stage.




Actually no...you are very wrong...First..you have to look at these cases on a 1 on 1 case...practically no one ever does this..the majority make blanket statements about it and advise just that...People never suggest a person exercise to become stronger first before picking up a bow..they use your analogy and then go on about how a heavier poundage bow isn't needed or bad for them and too easy to pick up bad habits...ect...ect...ect.........except for those of us that actually shoot & hunt with heavier weighted bow...See...we already know what it takes to use them..and what it took for us to be comfortable about telling others what they need to do to use them..All one has to do is to look at the answers that have been given by those who advocate a light weight bow over a heavier weight bow,and you will see the majority are really saying a person doesn't need one...again...easier isn't always better..Don't use the bow to become physically fit..use the correct means to do this..

I look at my real world experiences and make my recommendations on that..mainly as it applies to my hunting..and while learning with a lighter bow then progressing to a heavier bow is one method of doing things it isn't the only way...or the best way for everyone....It certainly doesn't mean learning with a heavier poundage bow first is always a detriment to the individual..It can be Kegan...but it doesn't have to be..or will be..same for what snap shooting really is..not just a few folks interpretation of it..All to often people get into traditional for the wrong reasons..and don't give the commitment needed to succeed..and I would wager those that loose the desire to commit..never really had it in the first place..You really have to want to do this type of archery....and you really need to be physically strong enough if you choose a heavier poundage bow to succeed..Is learning on a heavier bow the best way for everyone...absolutely not..but being physically strong enough before trying is..and it certainly isn't the easiest way either...but...just 1 way of doing things..

Mac


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm sure this will hurt someone's feelings but I have to be honest. I've seen a handful of guys that can shoot 65+# consistently. Very few can. The difference in 5# is huge. If you disagree then film yourself shooting and then play it in slow motion. Be critical and honest. If you need that kind of weight then use it but if you don't need that heavy of a bow I really don't understand the logic. Again, I know a few guys that can handle it - perhaps you're one of them. You can hunt pretty much anything with 55# and that is significantly less draw weight. As Mac mentions, everyone is different, but even most strong weight lifters struggle with 65+#


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Ranger B said:


> I'm sure this will hurt someone's feelings but I have to be honest. I've seen a handful of guys that can shoot 65+# consistently. Very few can. The difference in 5# is huge. If you disagree then film yourself shooting and then play it in slow motion. Be critical and honest.


Sounds logical. I wish I had a video camera.



Ranger B said:


> If you need that kind of weight then use it but if you don't need that heavy of a bow I really don't understand the logic.


You don't understand it because it doesn't necessarily appeal to you....which is fine. Differernt strokes for different folks. It's not much different than the guy in the gym who wants to bench 300lbs. It's just a goal and it's fun being able to lift that kind of weight or draw a heavy bow. It's not much fun when you struggle with accuracy and form with a heavy bow but some like the challenge.

Some of us choose to shoot heavier bows because we can...not that we need to.



Ranger B said:


> You can hunt pretty much anything with 55# and that is significantly less draw weight.


I agree.



Ranger B said:


> As Mac mentions, everyone is different, but even most strong weight lifters struggle with 65+#


I agree...but it has more to do with the mechanics of drawing the bow and learning it...than it does because of a lack of strength. Some strong men who want to take up archery could benefit by learning with a lighter bow....but not necessarily all of them.

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I agree with you as well Ray. Now that was easy ;-)


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ranger B said:


> I'm sure this will hurt someone's feelings but I have to be honest. I've seen a handful of guys that can shoot 65+# consistently. Very few can. The difference in 5# is huge. If you disagree then film yourself shooting and then play it in slow motion. Be critical and honest. If you need that kind of weight then use it but if you don't need that heavy of a bow I really don't understand the logic. Again, I know a few guys that can handle it - perhaps you're one of them. You can hunt pretty much anything with 55# and that is significantly less draw weight. As Mac mentions, everyone is different, but even most strong weight lifters struggle with 65+#


Physical conditioning is not all about weight lifting..far from it..but yet that is what many choose to believe it is. It isn't about the quantity of muscle you have..but about the quality of muscle. I know plenty of very muscular weight lifters who can't draw my bow smoothly and hold my bow at my full draw for any length of time,let alone hit a target 20 yards away and for them to even get it there is comical to say the least,and very embarrassing for them when I show them how easy it is for little old me..lol...lol...lol...

The reason most guys you know can't handle the weight is because in my best guess they have never been shown how to properly. Most guys think it is about bulking up,and it isn't,but I also want to say it is not about standing there shooting these weight bows like those who shoot a 35 pounder does on a Olympic line neither..

Heavy weight bows of 60 lbs plus aren't meant to be shot in this fashion..not really..they are hunting bows in most cases..even though they can be shot for targets..by those that can handle them but the mind set some here have is you have to shoot them like they are to be accurate enough to hunt with. Nothing further from the real truth is this mind set..It's not about having text book perfect form..but repeatable consistency..

Peoples quest for accuracy has left them thinking pin point target accuracy over everything else..and I will say this again...nothing is further from the truth with this mind set. While being able to achieve pin point accuracy is always very good thing..it is not any guarantee it is going to matter on getting that arrow into the vitals of most big game..Sure..it will help you know where your shooting..but..animals move..stationary 3d targets don't.

Shooting heavier weight bows is not for everyone...and if you want to shoot them..you have to be physically fit to shoot them accurately..and this requires us to train all of the correct muscles we use to do this..not just try to gain muscle mass in the wrong places..

Heavy weight bows offers those that can utilize them flatter trajectory with heavier arrows they can not achieve with a lighter poundage bow and this gives us that use them a higher percentage chance of getting that arrow into the vitals and out the other side on a less than perfect broadside shot.People can say all they want to..and it won't change this fact..it's better to have it..and not need it..than it is to need it and not have it..We all don't look at the same thing in the same way..just as we all don't hunt from tree stands and limit our shots to 20 yards and under..
Mac


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MAC 11700 said:


> Physical conditioning is not all about weight lifting..far from it..but yet that is what many choose to believe it is. It isn't about the quantity of muscle you have..but about the quality of muscle. I know plenty of very muscular weight lifters who can't draw my bow smoothly and hold my bow at my full draw for any length of time,let alone hit a target 20 yards away and for them to even get it there is comical to say the least,and very embarrassing for them when I show them how easy it is for little old me..lol...lol...lol...
> 
> The reason most guys you know can't handle the weight is because in my best guess they have never been shown how to properly. Most guys think it is about bulking up,and it isn't,but I also want to say it is not about standing there shooting these weight bows like those who shoot a 35 pounder does on a Olympic line neither..
> 
> ...


Mac, I would say good points! Even with a slight analogy to weight training, which I believe archery has only little in common - it's more muscular finesse, control, than muscular bulk - injury and frustration awaits the person who starts at the top on weight and thinks they will eventually grow into it. Nope. You just learn to accommodate the bow more than anything else. Heavy bows have their purpose. Those that want to use them, should work "up" to them and not "into" them is basically my take on a newbie and lighter bow. If pin point accuracy is their taste, then that's another matter to consider. For most of the posts I have read around here, accuracy seems to trump the want to shoot a heavy bow. Many would like both, but find that's a whole other story and seem willing to make the compromise for lower draw weight.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Mac, I would say good points! Even with a slight analogy to weight training, which I believe archery has only little in common - it's more muscular finesse, control, than muscular bulk - injury and frustration awaits the person who starts at the top on weight and thinks they will eventually grow into it. Nope. You just learn to accommodate the bow more than anything else. Heavy bows have their purpose. Those that want to use them, should work "up" to them and not "into" them is basically my take on a newbie and lighter bow. If pin point accuracy is their taste, then that's another matter to consider. For most of the posts I have read around here, accuracy seems to trump the want to shoot a heavy bow. Many would like both, but find that's a whole other story and seem willing to make the compromise for lower draw weight.


Yup...many do indeed compromise but I like to have folks choose something instead of compromising..As by the original OP and the countless others that always show up..people don't know where to start out..There is a problem though..and that is not enough good information for those that have already chosen a heavy weight bow already (for whatever reason)..Not all can afford to go out and purchase another..so..they have to use what they have and then get bombarded with statements that aren't really helpful in their situation when they come here or elsewhere for help....They need information that will help them with what they have..now.._not what others think they should have or start out with..or get by with based on their style of shooting or hunting._.

So many new people to the sport young and old..don't realize it takes a real commitment to do what is needed to succeed with target shooting or hunting..or both...and that physical conditioning as well as mental conditioning is factored in to it as much as it is.We who have been doing this for a long time..always use blanket phrases like..._This is easier that that..This is the best way to do things..You don't need a xx lb bow to hunt._.and many times..people forget nothing is really easy to someone just starting out in the sport..or that they don't have what others consider proper..

Here's a easy way of dealing with things like the OP's post..He can draw his bow back and shoot it with out issue..He just doesn't have the accuracy he needs or wants yet..In reality...what should he do...? 

IMHO...there are several things he should do if he wants to keep this bow...

1..He should start exercising to improve his strength..reason...the stronger he is..the easier it will become to be able to shoot his bow. His wrist..fingers..arms..back muscles will become stronger..and aid in his accuracy and his stamina..You have to be able to hit what your aiming at..and the easiest and quickest way to learn is by aiming..If he is strong enough to hold his bow at full draw..even for a second..he will greatly increase his odds of being able to hit his target..Snap shooting is doable...but to learn how to do it before you can aim your bow will take a lot longer for the majority of people..

2..He needs to learn how to focus..*reason* If he can't focus and be able to pick a spot on the target..this needs to investigated fully and find out why..again..this _could be_ because the bow is too heavy for him in his physical state..but.._it could be a number of other conditions as well..
_

3..Let's start trying to take each post like the OP's on a case by case basis.. *reason* if we know what it is they are trying to accomplish and why..then we can give a better answer to them. We aren't all the same..hunt the same..shoot the same..believe in the same..or have the same favorite equipment or hunting opportunities... nor do we all have unlimited funds to buy multiple bows..We need to give information pertaining to what they are needing to know..instead of what we want to tell them..I think if we do this..it will stop a lot of arguments of what is "best" in our eyes..and give them what will work for them in their situations..

Mac


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ranger B said:


> I'm sure this will hurt someone's feelings but I have to be honest. I've seen a handful of guys that can shoot 65+# consistently. Very few can. The difference in 5# is huge. If you disagree then film yourself shooting and then play it in slow motion. Be critical and honest. If you need that kind of weight then use it but if you don't need that heavy of a bow I really don't understand the logic. Again, I know a few guys that can handle it - perhaps you're one of them. You can hunt pretty much anything with 55# and that is significantly less draw weight. As Mac mentions, everyone is different, but even most strong weight lifters struggle with 65+#


What Ranger B said ...
I can shoot 70# and do sometimes just for giggles ... but no where near as accurately as I shoot 52# ... But its horses for courses ... I have never seen a fella shooting IFAA or FITA well with such high poundages but Schulz, Sturgis and Ferguson seem to be shoot such high poundages well ... but I'd suggest that they are the minority and are prepared to put in many hours of work just to maintain that strength , let alone that accuracy .
Aside from mungo big critters , 50# kills them just as dead as 75#.

... accuracy is accuracy and there are many ways to achieve it ... I just don't think after years of archery and coaching and being coached that I have seen any evidence that shows anything beneficial in such poundage unless either 
A / you want to shot heavier poundage for the challenge/ training involved etc
B / You are going after big critters or attending flight shoots etc 

Don't get me wrong , I still sometimes shoot such poundage and the success of Hill, Schulz, Ferguson etc shows what can be done with "Physiotherapist childrens College funds " bows ... it is just IMHO not the easiest way to archery excellence whether atop the Rockies or on the shooting line


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"it is just IMHO not the easiest way to archery excellence whether atop the Rockies or on the shooting line"

Your right it isn't easy, but it sure is fun........and in my case...lifesaving too......


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Let's start trying to take each post like the OP's on a case by case basis.. *reason* if we know what it is they are trying to accomplish and why..then we can give a better answer to them. We aren't all the same..hunt the same..shoot the same..believe in the same..or have the same favorite equipment or hunting opportunities... nor do we all have unlimited funds to buy multiple bows..We need to give information pertaining to what they are needing to know..instead of what we want to tell them..I think if we do this..it will stop a lot of arguments of what is "best" in our eyes..and give them what will work for them in their situations..


Ooooh...Heaven's Yeah!!!! A man after my own heart :wink: :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> it's more muscular finesse, control, than muscular bulk -


Absolutely...with that being said...strength still plays a key roll in an archer's ability to comfortably draw and shoot a specific draw weight...and their history of shooting a compound bow or not also plays a key roll in what draw weight an archer may learn to use comfortably.



Sanford said:


> injury and frustration awaits the person who starts at the top on weight and thinks they will eventually grow into it.


In some cases...yes...and in others...no. It really depends on how the archer approaches the challenge.



Sanford said:


> Those that want to use them, should work "up" to them and not "into" them is basically my take on a newbie and lighter bow. For most of the posts I have read around here, accuracy seems to trump the want to shoot a heavy bow. Many would like both, but find that's a whole other story and seem willing to make the compromise for lower draw weight.


Generally speaking...I agree....but it should be approached by a case by case view point....not based on just generalized information.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> I think the big push towards lighter bows is because lighter bows are the easiest way to help folks learn to shoot better


I agree....generally speaking.



kegan said:


> The advice isn't to go get a 40# bow and just use that, but rather learn how to shoot well with 40#, then 50#, then 60#, and then 70# if you desire. Simple as that.


This is basically how I believe every archer should approach learning to shoot a bow and advance into heavier draw weights. I'm not saying that every archer needs to start at 40lbs. and work they way up....but they should start with a draw weight that they personally can draw and shoot comfortably...whether it's 30lbs., 40lbs. or 60lbs.

Ray :shade:


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## Kennymac (Nov 1, 2007)

you can sugar coat it any way you want but, sounds to me that you are over bowed. a common problem for many trad archers! good luck!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, I don't think sacrificing pin point accuracy for a little power when (not if) you miss is acceptable, when most folks can learn how to handle a heavier bow with a similiar degree of accuracy. That is MY opinion on the matter. There have been enough folks out there shooting heavy weight bows to prove that not only CAN it be done, but it can be done well. Heck, even Ray here shoots a 70# bow on targets as well as for hunting, and does both well. He started out with a heavy bow, which is the more difficult way for the majority, but the rest of us can work up to heavier weights and come to a point where we're shooting a strong bow with plenty of accuracy. I'd much rather put an arrow clean through the boiler room with a 60# bow than HAVE to be able to shoot clean through the shoulder using a 75# bow.

I make this point because your very argument about not requiring the "pin point accuracy" is the same argument that caused me fits when I first started into archery. I'd hate to see that same thing happen to anyone else when I perosnally don't feel it's true. 

Also, physical conditioning only seems to help when used in conjunction with a bow one can already draw and shoot with control, even if it's not yet perfect control. I began doing pull ups and push ups in order to help make shooting a heavy bow easier and to help stay in shape, but I used that in conjunction with a slightly lighter draw weight too. At a little over 6' and 175lbs I've worked up to 30 pull ups and 100 push ups, but all that hasn't amounted to a hill of beans because I haven't been shooting the heavier bows anymore. So far it's helped me shoot my 62# more comfortably for longer, but it hasn't made heavier bows any easier to control. You have to be able to handle the bow to some degree if you want to shoot it. Plain and simple.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

There seems to be a slight misconception going around here about Freestyle Recurve shooters (the Olympic guys). The ones you see shooting in the Olympics or World Cup are most certainly not shooting bows in the Sub-40# range. The women are averaging in the low-40s at their draw and the men up into the low-50s with most being ~48#. All have a set of limbs heavier just for strength training, which they shoot with EXACTLY the same form. The bows also have mass weights in the 7# range, I don't think most trad archers could even hold that mass-weight at arms length for the duration required to shoot a full FITA; its a good thing I shoot BB because I sure couldn't.
They also aren't just shooting a few arrows, more like 2-300 each day with every one being shot as perfectly as is humanly possible. So when you look at them shooting so relaxed and calm remember that they are shooting weights which could take any large game in North America. They all got that way shooting extremely light bows until they could dominate them, and only then did they increase weight.

-Grant


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> Mac, I don't think sacrificing pin point accuracy for a little power when (not if) you miss is acceptable, when most folks can learn how to handle a heavier bow with a similiar degree of accuracy. That is MY opinion on the matter. There have been enough folks out there shooting heavy weight bows to prove that not only CAN it be done, but it can be done well. Heck, even Ray here shoots a 70# bow on targets as well as for hunting, and does both well. He started out with a heavy bow, which is the more difficult way for the majority, but the rest of us can work up to heavier weights and come to a point where we're shooting a strong bow with plenty of accuracy. I'd much rather put an arrow clean through the boiler room with a 60# bow than HAVE to be able to shoot clean through the shoulder using a 75# bow.
> 
> I make this point because your very argument about not requiring the "pin point accuracy" is the same argument that caused me fits when I first started into archery. I'd hate to see that same thing happen to anyone else when I perosnally don't feel it's true.
> 
> Also, physical conditioning only seems to help when used in conjunction with a bow one can already draw and shoot with control, even if it's not yet perfect control. I began doing pull ups and push ups in order to help make shooting a heavy bow easier and to help stay in shape, but I used that in conjunction with a slightly lighter draw weight too. At a little over 6' and 175lbs I've worked up to 30 pull ups and 100 push ups, but all that hasn't amounted to a hill of beans because I haven't been shooting the heavier bows anymore. So far it's helped me shoot my 62# more comfortably for longer, but it hasn't made heavier bows any easier to control. You have to be able to handle the bow to some degree if you want to shoot it. Plain and simple.


Pretty big assumptions Bro...pretty big..

Look at what I said about pin point accuracy again..this is in relation to hunting accuracy..vs target accuracy..and what is needed to put a arrow through the vitals of a animal..vs what is needed to win competitions...

Do we need pin point accuracy to kill a white tail deer..No..but we sure as heck do if we plan on winning any competition..Yes..we do need to be as accurate as what we can get..but..getting a arrow into a deers lung region is not getting a arrow into the heart for a score..We can and have taken plenty of deer with just lung shots...and have taken deer with much poorer placed shots that penetrated far enough to make it through the lungs..It isn't ideal...but if you have the bow/arrow combination in your hands..a bad shot doesn't always mean a lost deer or a non-fatal hit...All I am suggesting is upping the odds in my favor here..Pin point accuracy is no guarantee of a good hit on a live animal...yup bet it does help..but it is not needed just to kill a deer.It's not about having to shoot through the shoulder of just a deer..it's not having to worry if it has the ass behind that arrow to make it through at longer distances..big difference.. 

Look..if you think doing push up and chin ups is the only way of developing the correct muscles needed for shooting heavy bows your wrong..it's a start...but you got a whole slew of muscles you need to work on..and also your stamina as well....and fwiw...when I was 16 years young and 5'4" and 98 lbs ..I was shooting and hunting with 55 lb recurves..I'm now 57 and 5'11" and 195..shooting 66 lbs..I'm no muscle man..but am strong enough to shoot mine all day long comfortably..and hit what I am hunting..Physical conditioning is good if it is done correctly..You target what you need to strengthen..then you condition those muscles and the rest of your body for endurance..The reason you can't control your bow is because your arms hands and fingers haven't been strengthen enough to control it.

Mac


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

kegan said:


> Also, physical conditioning only seems to help when used in conjunction with a bow one can already draw and shoot with control, even if it's not yet perfect control. I began doing pull ups and push ups in order to help make shooting a heavy bow easier and to help stay in shape, but I used that in conjunction with a slightly lighter draw weight too. At a little over 6' and 175lbs I've worked up to 30 pull ups and 100 push ups, but all that hasn't amounted to a hill of beans because I haven't been shooting the heavier bows anymore. So far it's helped me shoot my 62# more comfortably for longer, but it hasn't made heavier bows any easier to control. You have to be able to handle the bow to some degree if you want to shoot it. Plain and simple.


Are we talking straight in a set or are we talking total per day? Per day that's not a hill of beans. I think if you worked something like four sets of fifty twice a day nice and smoothly you would see results. I achieved real definition in about three months of this. 30 pull ups twice a day is starting to do something. The thing to watch for and guard against is the building of fast twitch muscle by doing the actions in an explosive manner. My $.02, but I am not a very strong person.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, I fully aknowledge your points about the NEED for pin point accuracy. I worded myself very badly, in that I feel it should still remain a stated GOAL for a hunter. Again, I was lulled into the belief that you didn't have to be perfect in practice to be a good hunter, and that cost me more hits on deer than anything else- one year I missed at least six consecutive shots on deer, all fifteen yards or less. Is it necessary? No. Should we still be encouraged to work towards that end? Yes, even if we don't expect to reach that goal.

The push ups and pull ups example is just in reference towards some other comments made towards folks learning to shoot on heavy bows. I've seen it several times and thought it would be fitting here, especially since conditioning was mentioned. As you say, it's about PROPER conditioning, which is rarely mentioned. It usually is just telling the fellow asking to do push ups and pull ups. Actually, I don't know many archery-related conditioning exercises, and would highly appreciate some examples myself?

Forrest, those are straight sets. I normally do five sets of thirty pull ups during the day, and in the evening a set of a hundred crunches and then a hundred sit ups. All of this was more to stay in shape when work began to decline. I was doing mostly roofing and remodelling for my uncle and in between jobs the inactivity made getting started again very difficult and slow, which was beginning to be a problem. So I began doing small exercises at home during the off time to stay in shape, worked up from about five pull ups, twenty push ups, and twenty crunches to the sets I do now which I do about four-five days a week with two-three days off to rest. Again, the archery benefits were only secondary, and I mention them only because of comments made in other "starting on a heavy bow" threads.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Actually, I don't know many archery-related conditioning exercises, and would highly appreciate some examples myself?


There are so many different exercises that every archer could benefit from that involve everything from core strengthening and joint stability, strengthening the agonist muscles of a movement, the antagonist muscles of a movement and even cardiovascular fitness.

Some of the best exercises that aide any athelete are exercises that imitate the basic movement of the athlete.

For archers....exercise that combine both a push pull at the same time are excellent...such as using an adjustable cable crossover machine and using your bow arm to push the cable away from the body and the draw arm to pull the cable....similar to how you would draw and shoot a bow and arrow.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There are so many different exercises that every archer could benefit from that involve everything from core strengthening and joint stability, strengthening the agonist muscles of a movement, the antagonist muscles of a movement and even cardiovascular fitness.
> 
> Some of the best exercises that aide any athelete are exercises that imitate the basic movement of the athlete.
> 
> ...


Perfect for who ? You know your wrong about something...we all should maintain high expectations..but learn how to deal with not always getting what we want..

Here's some food for though...

Every professional athlete also does some type of warm up routine prior to participating in any sport..yet..seldom do you hear of this in archery..why is that...? Following that..why do people go sit in the cold with no or just limited movement and try drawing a heavy bow ?

Every archer could benefit by "warming" up before shooting at all..just as every archer that sits in the cold could benefit by keeping their muscles limbered up before shooting..Most all have seen athletes stretching..and most all people have heard of Isometric exercises..but seldom do we tell others to do this..

I always do stretching routines before any sports..including archery..just as I always shoot at least a dozen arrows before I go hunting..I take a portable target with me..I don't stand hunt a-lot nor tree hunt any longer...but when I do and did..I always tried to stretch and use Isometrics...because I know that by doing this..I could shoot exceedingly better when I had to..Most folks don't even think about this..then wonder why they pull/tear muscles or hurt sockets.. We hear..."try drawing a heavy poundage bow on a cold morning in a tree stand " I just shake my head...because I know those that say this..aren't even thinking about what I mentioned above..and the majority of folks up in those tree stands aren't thinking about it either..

We have to exercise most all of our muscles and have them work in unison from start to finish on shooting a bow..so we need to strengthen them all...and for expending the least amount of effort...and we must utilize them all..yet...we hear from some...only use your back muscles for drawing and releasing the string...That to me is a frigging riot..and just shows how little these folks know about the human anatomy..and what the back muscles are best suited for..and what we all use to shoot our bows with..Why would anyone want to just use muscles that aren't meant to be used in that manner is beyond me..especially with a heavy bow..It's no wonder folks can and are getting hurt...I understand completely why they insist on a fly weight bow to start..it is because the way they shoot isn't the most efficient way..to utilize all of the proper muscles in the upper body..and by adding a significant amount of weight to this with a heavy bow only makes it worse..I know this will draw criticism..but..I have no other way of saying it..so sorry...

Fingers need to be strong...so they can hold the string at the correct angle with out collapsing..so they can hold and control the bow and hold it on the correct planes with out a death grip..or with out re-gripping during any phase of the shot.Wrist need to be strong on the bow hand..so the hand doesn't collapse under the weight and allow the bow to turn into the body..arms need to be strong..so there is not as much tension and strain..shoulders need to be strong so they can rotate properly with out strain..all the way through the back..not to mention all of the other upper body muscles as well as the lower body muscles that are used..A light weight bow..sure it's easier to do all of this..but not the best choice for everyone..

Our bodies are package deals..strengthen all of the muscles and utilize all of them..is the most efficient way of doing things..this will increase your stamina ...and this not only encompasses both physical but mental endurance as well..It benefits by you having less fatigue..and a quicker recover time..

Sorry about the longish post...I know how some hate them

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Perfect for who ?


Exactly! Where did I say something in that post you quoted that was perfect for anyone?



MAC 11700 said:


> You know your wrong about something...we all should maintain high expectations..but learn how to deal with not always getting what we want..


Wow....where are you coming up with this stuff??? 

Where did I say ANYWHERE that we shouldn't maintain high expectations and not learn to deal with not always getting what we want???

Talk about putting words into my mouth or lacking reading comprehension!



MAC 11700 said:


> Every professional athlete also does some type of warm up routine prior to participating in any sport..yet..seldom do you hear of this in archery..why is that...?


My guess would be because archery doesn't appear to be a sport that is vigourous or as physically demanding as other sports....but all archers could benefit by warming up.



MAC 11700 said:


> Following that..why do people go sit in the cold with no or just limited movement and try drawing a heavy bow ?


Maybe to imitate some hunting circumstances :dontknow:

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Exactly! Where did I say something in that post you quoted that was perfect for anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry Sorry Sorry...I thought I had quoted Kegan's last post up there Bro...not yours or anything you said...MY BAD>>>MY DUMB MISTAKE...seriously..MY BAD......did I say I was sorry...:embara::embara::embara::embara::embara:

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Sorry Sorry Sorry...I thought I had quoted Kegan's last post up there Bro...not yours or anything you said...MY BAD>>>MY DUMB MISTAKE...seriously..MY BAD......did I say I was sorry...:embara::embara::embara::embara::embara:
> 
> Mac


LOL....I was like....where is this guy coming from.

No problem. I've definitely made silly mistakes like that before :angel:

Ray :shade:


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

I have found that the best weight training for the bow is to shoot and shoot alot.
I like to jump 10# at a time and then drop 20# for hunting season.
This year my top bow is 80# and it will take about 2 months to get to it....another month before I can shoot it as good as the bow before it.
I just haven't had an issue as long as I work up to it...whatever the weight is.
I am far from a beast and to be honest, you wouldn't believe I would be shooting 80# if you looked at me but it's not the size of the person...it's the persistence that matters.


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