# brass nocks vs tying nocks



## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

Any benefit of one over the other?

Any great way of tying nocks?

thanks.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

When you hit/ripped your nose a couple of times with a brass nock...well... I only use one attached loosely that I can move when tuning. Then it comes off.
Search YouTube for tying nocks. The moveable way is a good idea.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

All of my strings now have serving thread nock sets now thanks to this video. Haven't had one budge unless I want to adjust it and they do not wear out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YlYqDiJN8U


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

w8lon said:


> All of my strings now have serving thread nock sets now thanks to this video. Haven't had one budge unless I want to adjust it and they do not wear out.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YlYqDiJN8U


+1
A minor modification. Instead of a pencil, steal a darning needle from your wife (sorry big assumption and gender bias there). When you lay this up over the needle you can wrap much tighter which makes it easier to finish off without bunching the wraps over each other. As well, you can feed the loose end through the needle eye to pull it through. Makes things so much smoother. 

And a caveat. Make sure you leave the tag ends long enough to get good purchase on (but don't pull so hard you separate the serving or you won't be able to adjust). I tied a couple of these too loose and they would creep up the string pretty easily. You will find what you are comfortable with, with a little practise. 

Cheers


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

bradd7 said:


> I only use one attached loosely that I can move when tuning. Then it comes off.


personally I think brass nocks have a bad rep; they don't really weigh *that* much, and if you use the correct size and close them properly they are very low profile.

that said, I only use them for tuning and then replace with tied nocks, but I can understand that a lot of people do not. I can only think of 2 people in my club apart from myself who aren't afraid of a bit of string.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

using one brass nock is not the issue. Using two brass nocks is. 

If you use two brass nocks and you dont give alittle extra spacing in the nock area, they can crush the nock at full draw resulting in disastrous results when you fire. The nock pinch is enough for the brass nocks to crack the nock and have it fail. 

I had it happen to me and when the nock failed, it embeded a brass nock in my forearm, and cut a v wedge of skin out. I still have the V scar where i had to dig it out. 


Since i prefer to not have any space for the arrow nock to move between the two nock points, i not use tied nocks. I do use a braass nock as a kisser.


Chris


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> using one brass nock is not the issue. Using two brass nocks is.
> 
> If you use two brass nocks and you dont give alittle extra spacing in the nock area, they can crush the nock at full draw resulting in disastrous results when you fire. The nock pinch is enough for the brass nocks to crack the nock and have it fail.
> 
> ...


I am unclear, do you use tied nocks?
Also, I was thinking of using a brass nock as a kisser, but was afraid it would bite me. Any issue with that?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I use two tie on nocks for my nocking point. I use a brass nock for my kisser. I have no problem with the brass nock biting me.


I do not recommend using two brass nocks for the nocking point locators.

Chris


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I use serving material for my tie-on nocks. I make a simple overhand knot, then make another overhand knot on the opposite side of the string. I alternate sides with these knots making a total of eight (or so to taste). The final knot is doubled into a square knot, the ends cut short, melted with a lighter, and tapped with a finger to flatten against the nock. I use a long piece of serving so I can get a good grab on the ends in order to cinch each overhand knot very tightly. I am not polite during this construction. 

These suckers will not move on the string. I've only had one ever twist upon the string, but I never figured out why it did, though it didn't move until after some thousands of shots. 

I don't like a movable nock locator for the simple reason that it is movable. They are certainly cool and elegant, and serve the function for adjustment. But since they present a possibly uninvited variable, I'll tune with masking tape nocks until happy and then install my permanent tie-on one. 

I've used the brass nocks, and have nothing against them. I gravitated to the tie-ons after learning to make my own strings and having serving material on hand to perform the tie-on.


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## jocala (Jan 26, 2013)

Great thread OP. I'm thinking about migrating to tied nock points. I've seen halo 0.30 serving recommended, but it's pricey. Nock point thread is way cheaper, anything wrong with it?


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

> I use serving material for my tie-on nocks. I make a simple overhand knot, then make another overhand knot on the opposite side of the string. I alternate sides with these knots making a total of eight (or so to taste). The final knot is doubled into a square knot, the ends cut short, melted with a lighter, and tapped with a finger to flatten against the nock.


This is the same way i do them. I started about 4 years ago and its been working fine. I usually only do 5-6 knots.


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

gif said:


> This is the same way i do them. I started about 4 years ago and its been working fine. I usually only do 5-6 knots.


I like the adjustable knot, but I my plan is to go with the above.


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

jocala said:


> Great thread OP. I'm thinking about migrating to tied nock points. I've seen halo 0.30 serving recommended, but it's pricey. Nock point thread is way cheaper, anything wrong with it?


I just purchased Browning material
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/brownell-4-twisted-nylon-serving.html
Lancaster recommended this or the one you highlighted. 
I would like to hear thoughts on this as well.


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## yurmes (Apr 2, 2013)

I also using serving material for nocking points, recently start using metal nock as a kisser, right away appearing big noise . Before was just try 2 metal nock points, sound was crazy because of it. Also was hear from string making guy, that each metal nock slowing down arrow fly to 5m per second.


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

yurmes said:


> Also was hear from string making guy, that each metal nock slowing down arrow fly to 5m per second.


I doubt those numbers. maybe 2fps (if that, and probably less)


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## CalArchery (Oct 5, 2010)

brass nock is better at adjusting, but sometimes they loosen up and move around which can be annoying at a tournament. Also, they contributes to lower fps, but thats minor problem.

Tying nock pro and con is the opposite of brass nock.

So far, I have seen two way of tying nock. One way is shown in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hwQiKAWl2k . I believe this is the most common way of tying nock

the other way was to tie it back and forth multiple times. Takes longer times, but it lasted much longer.


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## K31Scout (Sep 17, 2003)

I tie waxed flavored dental floss above and below once my string has settled. Nice scent when they're new. Good for string walking points too and almost zero weight.


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

CalArchery said:


> brass nock is better at adjusting, but sometimes they loosen up and move around which can be annoying at a tournament. Also, they contributes to lower fps, but thats minor problem.
> 
> Tying nock pro and con is the opposite of brass nock.
> 
> ...


That link is to backserving I believe....which really helped me as well.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I think Michele Frangilli uses a thin strip of masking tape very lightly sealed with superglue for his 'kisser'


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Brownell's #4 serving works in stellar fashion on most of my nocks. If you are only buying a serving material to use for tie-on nocks, the #4 can't be beat for the money. 

It also, ironically, serves as a quite excellent serving material (if .021 floats yer boat, of course)!


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

For a quick temp nock point I know many people use this as it really simple:

http://www.brokenaxe.ca/diy/ton/tie.html

For a more permanent, non moving type I use the same type of knot that I use to tie off a endloop or center serving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0_hVCtkJ8 jump to about 4:40 in this clip. 

​I normally use unwaxed dental floss with a drop of super glue to ensure it will last.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I use a piece of tape when I am in a hurry to get the proper nocking point height. Once I have that (or I am replacing the string on a bow that I have tuned) I do the following.

I wipe the area where I will tie the nocking point with brush on Loctite super glue. I use BCY nocking point thread (or in a pinch nylon end serving material)
eight overhand knots. I have really strong hands and I really pull the material tight. put some more super glue on it, and burn the ends

Now Darrell and others in my club like dental floss. when you melt it it sticks well. however, I find that DF wears to the point that a nock can move up the nocking point.


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## arrowyn (Jul 4, 2013)

I used to swear by brass nocks (I started out doing other bows) when I went to non Oly recurve. But tie on nocks are don't need pliers, and if doing a 4-8 single layer can be done fast (though crimping a nock is faster). And I can adjust the size of the nock on a more fine degree than the 3 brass nock sizes. And removing them is easier than brass nocks. Adjusting is easier than a brass nock. 

While this situation hasn't happen to me, some people at the range have crimped in a hurry and hard. Then a few hours / days, the they find serving or even a strand is cut, and they have to replace it / reserve. Can't tie a nock so hard it'll cut the string (unless you're hulk or ironman / superman etc)


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

Jim C said:


> I use a piece of tape when I am in a hurry to get the proper nocking point height. Once I have that (or I am replacing the string on a bow that I have tuned) I do the following.
> 
> I wipe the area where I will tie the nocking point with brush on Loctite super glue. I use BCY nocking point thread (or in a pinch nylon end serving material)
> eight overhand knots. I have really strong hands and I really pull the material tight. put some more super glue on it, and burn the ends
> ...


I am not sure I understand how you use the back serving technique. Are you just making a little serving as a nock set?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

CalArchery said:


> brass nock is better at adjusting, but sometimes they loosen up and move around which can be annoying at a tournament.


brass nocks can be put on loosely for tuning, but should be crimped down properly once done. I cannot see one ever loosening up once correctly crimped.



> Also, they contributes to lower fps, but thats minor problem.


a brass nock weighs about 5-6gn, and against that is the comparative weight of a tied one - which admittedly will be lower.

I am over the whole "brass nocks are slower" thing. I can think of a bunch of good reasons to use tied nocksets, but "speed" is a bit like your tyre dealer trying to sell you a nitrogen inflation. it makes about 0.0001% difference for the application.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

caspian said:


> brass nocks can be put on loosely for tuning, but should be crimped down properly once done. I cannot see one ever loosening up once correctly crimped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, this brings up an interesting question that maybe the engineers can answer - if the brass nock is 6grains, and a tied on nock is 1grain (if that), then that's an additional 5grains of dead weight to the weight of the bow string, which is probably a 5 or 6% increase (I think most of my 16strand strings are about 95grains in weight). So, how much effect will a 6% increase in the weight of the middle of the string have on arrow speed (at, say, a 35lb draw weight and 280grain arrow)?

Also, no one has yet mentioned - that I can remember - in this thread that brass nocks tend to be much harsher on the leather face of the finger tab than do tied-on string nocks.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys -

Actually have to agree with caspian on this one. 
Over the years I've used everything from masking tape to tie-ons (various materials and lengths) to to crimp-ons to shrink-ons (for the guys old enough to remember using those). 
As long as what you use stays put, you're fine. 

One interesting case, though. 
A few years back, I made a new string and after a few shots, the crimp-on flew off. OK, figured I didn't crimp it down hard enough, or it was just a bad nock. Put a new one on, and it too flew off - on the first shot, IIRC. Third time's a charm, right? Nope. There had to be something freaky about the harmonics of that string. Put my old string back on - no problem; made a new string - no problem. Cut that string and threw it out. Been making strings for 40 something years and that only happened once. 

BTW, I buy my nocks in 100-count bags, so it wasn't a batch problem. 

I still use crimp ons. 

Viper1 out.


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## Jim18655 (Sep 17, 2011)

Another way to look at it is about a 2% gain at the back of the arrow. How much difference would that make in speed and tune?


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## CalArchery (Oct 5, 2010)

As I stated before, nock weight seems to be negligible at least on my level of shooting. I think of this as having perfect tune vs slightly stiff tune.
However, I have seen multiple time where our beginners in club somehow manage to un-crimp the brass nock from club bows after few semesters.
Those nocks were crimped down pretty well, so I don't even know how they did that.. haha


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Also, no one has yet mentioned - that I can remember - in this thread that brass nocks tend to be much harsher on the leather face of the finger tab than do tied-on string nocks.


that's one of my good reasons. plus, tied nocks are undeniably cooler.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Thin Man said:


> I use serving material for my tie-on nocks. I make a simple overhand knot, then make another overhand knot on the opposite side of the string. I alternate sides with these knots making a total of eight (or so to taste). The final knot is doubled into a square knot, the ends cut short, melted with a lighter, and tapped with a finger to flatten against the nock. I use a long piece of serving so I can get a good grab on the ends in order to cinch each overhand knot very tightly. I am not polite during this construction.
> 
> These suckers will not move on the string. I've only had one ever twist upon the string, but I never figured out why it did, though it didn't move until after some thousands of shots.
> 
> ...


To go along with your explanation, always go one way. Right over left or left over right . Doesn't matter as long as you do it the same. for the last knot, tie a surgeons knot before the square knot. that is when you tie the overhand, repeat before you pull it tite. It will prevent the knot from getting loose


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

One more note on the subject:

National Archery in the Schools Program (NASP) prohibits use of the brass nock sets.

Although I have been using brass on my personal bows for 30+ years, I think they had a couple problems with the brass in NASP.

Many of the NASP coaches are themselves new to the world of archery. They are PE Teachers first, and just incidental archers.

A brass nock set too loose can move up / down the string or even come off at the shot.

Brass nock set too tight can damage the underlying servings or even the bow string itself.

And I had not previously heard the situtation, but of course it makes sense, that if you use two nock sets and don't space them wide enough, they can make the arrow come un-nocked at full draw or can damage the plastic nocks.

LOTS of good reasons for using tied-on nock locators.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

properly installed brass nocks do not move (unless the serving underneath them is loose) and nor do they damage the serving or string. don't blame the tool for being poorly operated.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

^
If you are commenting about the NASP program, 4th graders (through 12th) probably pick at a brass nock with the same frequency as they pick their noses.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

At my club brass nocks are removed when the new archer is being shown how to tune their new bow and dental floss nock points are used and the archer is shown how to tie them.

Brass nocks are not for competitive archery.

I use Beiter nock points I never have any problems with nock fit or spread. I have never had one break, but they do break if fitted incorrectly or if taken from an old string and put on a new string "that'll teach me for being a tight wad  "

My advice is don't use them.

1) using something that can damage a tab face is a bad idea.

2) They do slow the string down a little, not good if you are junior shooting a low poundage bow who wants to take on a longer distance.


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## Lostnthewoods (Jan 24, 2013)

I had intended to tie knocking points onto my daughters bow for some time. This thread inspired me to get it done. I used un-waxed dental floss using the technique in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZYx1OecbY We are so happy with the results. With the two knocking points my daughter has eliminated the vertical stringing she has been battling. Yay!


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

Tony 219 made an awesome thread about tying nock points a few months ago. I've been using his method ever since


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