# How's my form, picture tells me DL is long



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rockwell said:


> New to me Mathews, been enjoying archery on and off for the past 35 years but I've decided to try to commit to get better. Seen a few how's my form thread so I thought I'd try to get a couple of pictures, 10 seconds from pushing the button to getting set is a task in itself, lol. It seems quite possibly my DL may be a bit long from these pictures, quite eye opening.
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Better than most. Fire 3 fletched arrows at 20 yards, and fire one bareshaft. Take a photo of the results.
Based on your shooting results...depending on your miss pattern,
then, we can make minor adjustments.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Will do 3-n-1 after I recoup a bit, was working on the thumb release and back tension this morning then Mrs Rockwell had me working after that as yesterday was a washout, and if you can't tell it's pretty warm in FL today. New to thumb releases have had a Prefex now about 3 months, always was a Scott index person as that was all I knew, new to back tension and been trying focus on it. Friday noticed something was up with my rest, so had to do a reset as it came out of level as one set screw loosened up or I just didn't original torque it down well enough, rechecked about everything after that. 

Do appreciate the response!


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## Esabo88 (12 mo ago)

Need a picture from directly behind, looking at rear elbow, elbow and arm should be inline with arrow, if its pointed out to the right DL a little short, my initial thought is DL a touch short, due to right arm not yet parallel to the ground, but there are many other factors to consider, just my 2 cents... right arm parallel to ground, this is John Dudley by the way..


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Esabo88 said:


> View attachment 7636728
> View attachment 7636729


Original poster put a 4 ft level on top of the plastic shed. Gotta rotate his photo to level horizons.










Dudley's right forearm is not parallel to the arrow. OP is a near perfect match to Dudley.


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## Esabo88 (12 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Original poster put a 4 ft level on top of the plastic shed. Gotta rotate his photo to level horizons.
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Are you saying the picture of Dudley I sent isn't him? lol, Looks like you picked a picture that is angled more from the front and not direct side on, (skewed hard to tell true angles) I looked at a bunch of Dudley's photos this is the only one that doesn't look parallel or close to it, plus I saw him shoot in person last week, just look up any pro archers, or 98% of any archers with correct DL, forearm parallel to ground, just my observation... and a picture taken from behind will tell more


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Level on top of shed is 3/4's of bubble towards my drawing elbow so slightly out of level..
First 3 pictures is typical of late, sometimes better and other times worse. Of late BS is usually tail left similar to the first set of pictures. A couple of weeks back I swapped the top tophats moving cam to the left which corrected a sever tail left BS. Still learning to execute with back tension with a thumb release.
























Different group, BS way less tail left...really don't know why.

















Do have a torque indicator on the bow so I do watch it and when torqued it shows. As I mentioned I had to reset the rest a couple of days ago when I notice it went out of level and prior to noticing that I raised the D-loop just a smidge to correct a tail low BS that started to occur. I then reset every thing back to level and that's where we are for the past couple of days.

On my draw board, the bottom just touchs compared to the top which is off by almost an 1/8" or a touch less. Which contribute to have to reset d-loop and rest as the likely culprit.

eta: Esabo may be on to something as I just read these new comments. So I put the safety into my prefex and drew the bow a couple times paying close attention to elbow height and it may have seemed to be a bit more solid with a slightly lower elbow. Bow is set to 56lbs compared to my old bowtech which was 63lb, the trx seems to draw sooo much smoother.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Here are two photos from today, level on top of the shed is dead nuts level and today it isn't 101 out. Notice bow hand fingers slightly extended usually not the case, think it's the 10 rush to get set on the timer.
















@nuts&bolts


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Put a paper clip at the bottom center of t-shirt neckline.
Tie a long length of dental floss and attach a weight, to make a plumb bob.
Lean backwards, about 2-inches, to get middle of neck, centered above belly button,
lean backwards about 2-inches, to get middle of neck centered above zipper on shorts.

Like this.










Goal is to level out the shoulders,
so you get EQUAL weight on both ankles. Shoulders should level out
when you lean back about 2-inches from latest photo.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

More like this I imagine, this picture was just before the other two. Will do the paperclip/floss treatment. Was more balanced feeling, less forward aggressive.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rockwell said:


> More like this I imagine, this picture was just before the other two. Will do the paperclip/floss treatment. Was more balanced feeling, less forward aggressive.


Much better.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

I would say that is more naturally what I usually try to accomplish, the other two I was feeling light is the right foot for sure. I usually try to square the right foot just a little more as well by about an inch. I use the paver lines to help set my feet to try to stay consistent.

Also tried to lower my right elbow didn't seem to work out well when I did a few ends, sort of a splatter effect.


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## DeathClutch (Aug 23, 2009)

Esabo88 said:


> Need a picture from directly behind, looking at rear elbow, elbow and arm should be inline with arrow, if its pointed out to the right DL a little short, my initial thought is DL a touch short, due to right arm not yet parallel to the ground, but there are many other factors to consider, just my 2 cents... right arm parallel to ground, this is John Dudley by the way..
> View attachment 7636728
> View attachment 7636729


i also coach on a lower elbow somewhere in between. "Why"? Backtension. This man will eventually hit a target panic wall. Mr Dud'z Knows that. Back tension will not work in the elevated elbow position. You must bring is down a bit! Kind of like this! So you can see Hoyt guy top left if he turns his release hand a little lower into his jaw, he will be in the perfect HINGE no safety BACK Tension position to engage his scapular muscles to make the release fire. So while using a index release (Which most start with) they tend to go high in the elbow AND THAT IS OK!! His form on the right is GOOD! Works nice!! But eventually will fail. You can see the BT release in dude's hands below! <3 Shoot Straight friends!


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## CCConservative (Apr 16, 2018)

Rockwell said:


> New to me Mathews, been enjoying archery on and off for the past 35 years but I've decided to try to commit to get better. Seen a few how's my form thread so I thought I'd try to get a couple of pictures, 10 seconds from pushing the button to getting set is a task in itself, lol. It seems quite possibly my DL may be a bit long from these pictures, quite eye opening.
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Right shoulder is creeping up which is causing your right elbow to be pointing upwards...increase your draw length 1/2 until your elbow almost points directly behind you...you'll get to a point where you can adjust your D-loop to dial it in 👍😁🎯


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## SimonRL (Mar 26, 2017)

Try half an inch shorter if you so drsired, but the current length seems right.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

DeathClutch said:


> i also coach on a lower elbow somewhere in between. "Why"? Backtension. This man will eventually hit a target panic wall. Mr Dud'z Knows that. Back tension will not work in the elevated elbow position. You must bring is down a bit! Kind of like this! So you can see Hoyt guy top left if he turns his release hand a little lower into his jaw, he will be in the perfect HINGE no safety BACK Tension position to engage his scapular muscles to make the release fire. So while using a index release (Which most start with) they tend to go high in the elbow AND THAT IS OK!! His form on the right is GOOD! Works nice!! But eventually will fail. You can see the BT release in dude's hands below! <3 Shoot Straight friends!


"Back tension will not work in the elevated elbow position" and this I feel is accurate for me so far as BT has been a bit of a struggle for me. Fortunately I do have a mod that is .5" shorter I can easily try and just so happened to install those last night just to test the waters. If that doesn't bode well for me I can easily go the other way, I will try a little lower hand position on the jaw as well and see where that leads me.


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## DeathClutch (Aug 23, 2009)

Rockwell said:


> "Back tension will not work in the elevated elbow position" and this I feel is accurate for me so far as BT has been a bit of a struggle for me. Fortunately I do have a mod that is .5" shorter I can easily try and just so happened to install those last night just to test the waters. If that doesn't bode well for me I can easily go the other way, I will try a little lower hand position on the jaw as well and see where that leads me.


If you wish to video chat and qa with me i am more than happy to pm you my FB info. we can brainstorm all your questions and i can explain how to securely draw, engage shot ex, PANIC and re-secure the bow and let down. Please do not be shy, everyone should understand how a hinge works as it will cure 100% your indoor target panic, any kind of premature flinching, ect! Truball has this "Speed Click" For their releases, if you shoot outside, this is a game changer in the wind. I have been playing with this for the last weeks on the field at 90m with my Remedy.  i can also teach you how to NOT PUNCH ANY half descent thumb/index release. That way you can go from target back tension to a more super secured 1 shot not panic on the kill of a lifetime!  Efficiency and Accuracy is what archery is all about.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Here's a couple pic's with the next shorter mod, approximately .5" shorter as side and rear views. Will swap back to the other mod for comparison sake if anyone is interested as it is easy to do and only takes a few minutes. Do like the draw feel of these 70%V mod. And I did try to get a slightly lower jaw line anchor point.

Left shoulder I think is looking slightly jacked up but didn't feel that way.
















another shot















White shirt .5" longer mod with new D-loop that is a bit longer, almost .75", prior it was barely .5".








Trying a slightly lower anchor up next, bow hand fingers not correct, rushing to set up
































@nuts&bolts


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Best photo of the bunch. MOST photos, right shoulder is sky high.
This photo, shoulders are closest to level. Have never been a fan of the low elbow,
Don't like the elbow joint BELOW the shoulder joint.










But, try it and see how you do at 20 yards. Shoot 3 fletched and a bareshaft at the same bullseye at 20 yards,
with the full draw posture, in THIS white t-shirt photo (see above).



Maybe later, you can try left elbow joint at the same height as your collar bones.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bow hand. Dump the straight out fingers, especially the pinky finger.





This works MUCH better.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Lift left elbow up 1.25-inches.
Lift the bow hand up 3/4-inches higher, to get top of bow hand thumb to the height of the TOPS of two level shoulders.
When you lift up the elbow, and you lift up the bow hand to a LEVEL bow arm (zero elbow bend)
you will hold MUCH more solid, groups will shrink.

ORANGE doctored bow hand, shows the riser and the first few inches of the front stab.
U can see how much I lifted your bow hand. Straighten out the elbow, PUSH the riser away from your left shoulder
and the bow hand/riser will automatically swing UP higher, when you lengthen the bow arm,
when you push the riser that little bit more away from your face.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Try to pull your bow apart into two pieces.
PULL with the right hand and right back muscles
and PUSH the riser away from your face, with left hand and left side back muscles.

Like you are mad at your bow and want to RIP your bow into two pieces.

If you have 12 lbs of holding weight,
then, PULL with the left hand 12 lbs of force
and PUSH with the right hand, 12 lbs of force, with that zero bend elbow.

See how your groups change.


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Thanks Alan, that one photo with the bow hand fingers is just a fluke of rushing to try to get set up as I do not do that when I'm rushing to the line on the photo count down.

I also see the orientation of the other gentlemans bow arm and the difference in mine, something I was missing for sure, I will absolutely work on that starting tomorrow.

Appreciate the advise greatly, gives me something to really work on and if the rain lets up I tend too.

thanks,
Tom


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## Rockwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Well that certainly feels different with the bow arm up more level and in a good way plus on a side note it appears in doing so it has caused two different reactions, one that my right shoulder/elbow has dropped down and that my peep may have to come down little. Close eyes, come to draw with bow arm up into new position, come to anchor, level arrow as I open my eyes it would I'm looking just under the peep. So I would say changing one action has caused a changed in another, or am I imagining that reaction.









@nuts&bolts


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## DeathClutch (Aug 23, 2009)

Everyone need to re-check and take the page out of THIS BOOK! boom! GET LOOOOOOOOOOW!


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## DeathClutch (Aug 23, 2009)

DeathClutch said:


> Everyone need to re-check and take the page out of THIS BOOK! boom! GET LOOOOOOOOOOW!
> View attachment 7641095


Here is MORE!


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