# Do you CANT the bow some?



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I seem to shoot better when I cant the bow a little.....I don't know why that is the case but it works for me right now.....If I start spraying the arrows I might go back to being straight up and down but right now the cant is working and its keeping the arrows in the 4 ring.........The question tho is how many cant your bow and does it feel a little more comfortable? I believe Byron Ferguson cants his bow......


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## travisd14 (Aug 25, 2014)

I don't. I've only shot compounds before now and hold my recurves the same way and same form as I would for any of them. Works a lot better for me.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I'll tell you this that you'd get more cant replies on the LW than here. I think it depend on what you shoot. My hunting bow has a 2.5 to 3 inch sight window. Pretty hard to set a gap without a cant. Take an IFL bow and most like you're looking at a window of 6 plus inches. Most gaps aren't going to be that large.

I don't cant my ilf's.

What do you shoot?

Bowmania


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## zonic (Aug 12, 2013)

I shoot better if canting my longbow about 15-20 degrees. Recurve not as much.


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

I used to do a slight cant. I feel I get a little bit longer draw shooting upright. So I don't can't much anymore unless the situation requires me to.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

When I shoot traditional recurve, split-finger, I cant the bow. Feel most comfortable this way. 

When I shoot compound 3 finger under, I don't cant the bow.


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## LZArcher (Jul 24, 2014)

Most people like to cant their bow because it gives them a better view of the target. The riser is turned out of the way making it easier to see. It gives me a lot more accuracy


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

My basement ceiling is low so I have to when I'm practicing at home, so when I go out I just keep it the same.


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

Yes I always cant when shooting recurve and longbow.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

yes


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

IMO, To shoot a trad. bow in a static state kind of defeats the purpose of this type of archery. It's like bench rest shooting w/ a over and under shotgun. If one desires to shoot paper or for scores, an target style of shooting will w/out a doubt works best. For the many years I shot w/ a upright form, 3 under, gap and did very well in conditioned circumstances such as w/ indoor and 3d shooting but never really felt natural in unpredictable hunting situations. Once I let go and started to master a more natural style of shooting, my hunting accuracy improved greatly. Especially on moving targets.


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

I don't. Always shot vertical bow with straight up stance. Although I shoot while sitting most of the time from my tree stands. Even with the 2-1/4" riser on my new CH I don't cant or find the need to.

About the only time I've had a need to cant is with one of my longer recurves when shooting while sitting in tree stand with a low seat and need to clear my bottom limb a little.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

I'll cant my short riser 62" bow a little, and shoot the rest of them vertical.
But as a target shooter & not a hunter, I sure as heck don't squat to shoot any of them.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

None of the good shooters I know have a pronounced cant. Some have a tiny bit but that is only noticeable if you can find something vertical to judge from.

As for it improving things for you: honeymoon effect and no more.

-Grant


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

always have,,,, always will,,,,,,,,,,it feels natural.


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

I've always played with canting , but not as part of my regular form.. I'm working into my bow (wish idI'd realized the sage limbs can be modified for my riser much sooner than a couple weeks ago) . When I'm fatigued or just not concentrating or things just aren't going right I'll often give her quite a bit of cant and do what most would call a snap shot( it's really not, but it is a very quick shot) . 30 yards and under it most often results in me muttering under my breath "good shaft" and allows me to regroup and continue . I used to practice this much more. Hunting situations , shooting from a jonboat, it has its place.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

grantmac said:


> None of the good shooters I know have a pronounced cant. Some have a tiny bit but that is only noticeable if you can find something vertical to judge from.
> 
> As for it improving things for you: honeymoon effect and no more.
> 
> -Grant


How about Byron Ferguson? I don't think I've ever seen him with a straight up bow, always canted......I did not know he passed away in 2011...at 88....Just saw that today while googling him........


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Rembrandt,

You MAY want to recheck that information. Byron Is no where near 88 years old and is very much still around -- the rumors of his "passing" maybe wrong? Maybe you saw a different Byron????

Arne


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

A version of Tembo I saw years ago had an introduction by Jerry Hill. He made some very impressive shots. Some were double ricochets . I'm pretty sure he canted.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

I find that a slight cant feels more natural for the bow hand, but less natural for the string hand. So I hold a recurve vertical. With a longbow, I do a slight cant so I can see the target.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> How about Byron Ferguson? I don't think I've ever seen him with a straight up bow, always canted......I did not know he passed away in 2011...at 88....Just saw that today while googling him........


Byron is not dead 

Byron is a talented trick shooter 

He would not fair well against today's top competitors in a 3 D shoot 

Chanting is a personal choice and some good shots do and some do not 

I have seen some very good shooters shoot with a slight cant 

I canted my entire life .... Now I shoot more of a vertical bow but I still can can't I just bend at the waist keeping everything lined up the same 

Do what makes you happy


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

Conversely , I'd have to wonder how today's top 3 D competitors would do with Ferguson's choice of targets. 
Apples to oranges.
Keeping everything lined up is more conducive to accuracy , especially so at the target butt.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> How about Byron Ferguson? I don't think I've ever seen him with a straight up bow, always canted...


Let me look up his competitive history.....yep, none.

Don't confuse trick shooters with competitive shooters.

-Grant


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

redribbon said:


> Conversely , I'd have to wonder how today's top 3 D competitors would do with Ferguson's choice of targets.
> Apples to oranges.
> Keeping everything lined up is more conducive to accuracy , especially so at the target butt.


I am a huge Byron fan 

With that I've seen him shoot live 

He's a good trick shot 

When I watched him it took him many tries to do the tricks and some he could not get 

That is trick shooting 

When you only see the final cut it leaves you with a different impression than live 

Again not knocking Byron quite the opposite 

I've been around shooting and hunting along time 

Do you know what impresses me 

I'm just as impressed with a guy that is a mediocre shot and can consistory bag game because of his skill and talent in the field as I am the guy that can hit an aspirin the same goes for the guy that can stand there at 20 YDS on a line shoulder to shoulder and eat away the center of a target 

All disciplines deserve respect none more none less but I'm inclined to respect the guy that can shoot a perfect 300 round very much because I surely can't


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Grant, I can't my bow when I shoot it for 3D and hunting however when Im shooting dots I like to stand it straight up and down. The reason is because it truly is more repeatable and more accurate when you're trying to hit a 3" dot.

Byron cants his bow like most longbow guys do simply to keep the arrow on the shelf...I can't my bow because I like to get the sight window opened up a bit.


Hope this helps.


Dewayne Martin


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## Onpoint85 (Jun 26, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Byron is not dead
> 
> Byron is a talented trick shooter
> 
> ...


One of the famous trick shooters did die I thought. And it too thought it was Byron Ferguson. I guess I'm losing my mind too


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Moebow said:


> Rembrandt,
> 
> You MAY want to recheck that information. Byron Is no where near 88 years old and is very much still around -- the rumors of his "passing" maybe wrong? Maybe you saw a different Byron????
> 
> Arne


Boy....I hope you are right.....I went to his sight thru Google and they said he passed away in 11. Hope that was someone else or better still just a misprint..........


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Dewayne,

You shoot with a small cant when off the shelf from what your videos show. Rem is looking to better his 300 round score shooting off a rest and plunger.

The only time I cant is with longbows which have a slanted window. With those I cant to get the window vertical. 

-Grant


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I cant my bow a little when shooting my traditional gear. It gives me a bigger and better sight picture.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Where is Rick Barbee at? Somebody needs to tells these guys that only people who wear nail polish cant their bow.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Ohh and if you shoot three under you wear pink panties.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)




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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Tom Knapp was a trick shooter for Benelli that died.Not an archer though.Jake you're too new to trad to pick sides!:beer:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Found this on Byron Ferguson......

Today this widely acclaimed bow hunter and trickster lives in Hartselle, Alabama with his wife Wanda and two sons Shaun and Zachary. The oldest is an aspiring guitarist, while Zack might just follow in his father’s footsteps and take up bowhunting. Either way, Byron finds little cause to complain. When he isn’t busy traveling he steps up as the host of a popular BBC TV’s Liv’n On The Wild Side and the Outdoor Channel’s Shooting USA. 

In 2012 Byron was introduced into The Outdoor Legends Hall Of Fame for which he gives thanks to his father who took the time to teach him the etiquette of hunting. If you’d like to learn more about Byron Ferguson and his bow hunting style feel free to check out his site: http://www.byronferguson.com or take a peek at his book Become The Arrow on Amazon.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Yup...sure do. If I want to shoot with the bow vertical I bend at the waist...backwards. Rick.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I have a _slight_ cant to the bow when I shoot, but only a few degrees. I'm more relaxed shooting that way; to get the bow perfectly vertical adds some tension in my bow wrist. If I have a bow quiver mounted the cant is a little more exaggerated. 

It comes down to me letting the bow and my wrist settle into the most relaxed position.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

I used to, but revised that to a vertical bow about 8 months ago. I like the consistency of my form now (going to no cant was only part of what I changed) and would be hesitant to change something that is working well for me.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

4nolz said:


> Jake you're too new to trad to pick sides!:beer:


Just having fun and stirring the pot a little .


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I have a problem, if I align my feet properly I get a harsh swipe on my left breast.....that's painful so I have to open my stance to avoid that......I don't think that's good.....The canting of the bow helps some also.......but I really don't prefer it over straight up and down......always something........


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## Thlayli (Feb 9, 2015)

JParanee said:


> Byron is not dead
> 
> Byron is a talented trick shooter
> 
> ...


Jai Guru Deva, om...Jai Guru Deva, om...Jai Guru Deva, om


Sorry.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I wonder if Byron will be at Tannihill this weekend?


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## weirdjack (Jan 15, 2014)

I cant because I can.......

It is also difficult to shoot a 72" bow in a 6' 6" high basement during the winter nights without canting. 

Bob Munden was another big name who has passed recently (2012). Not an archer, but simply amazing nonetheless.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

jakeemt said:


> Just having fun and stirring the pot a little .


me too! My nails look awesome pink! In a non-Bruce jenner sort of way.Eventually this thread will take a bad turn they always do and yet the threads always get repeated...after awhile its best not to take them seriously.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I am a newbie-canter. I feel strange canting my bow because I shot my compound bows in a perfectly vertical orientation for 25 years. 

I started out touching the string to my nose and chin as parts of my four anchor points. Later I touched the string to my nose, but not my chin after I started using a kisser button in the corner of my mouth in lieu of the chin anchor point.

I had always shot my bows vertically with the string touching my nose for consistent head orientation. I could see my sights and target clearly. I won’t list my numerous vision problems, but I do have bifocals and numerous vision problems.

When I started shooting my longbows (particularly the off the bow hand bows without an arrow shelf), I found I could not view the target or the arrow clearly with the bow in a vertical position. I found that when I canted the bow a bit (maybe 10 degrees) with the string touching my nose that I could at least see things. However it seemed to strain the muscles in my eyes as when one deliberately looks cross-eyed.

I did not have a clear sharp relaxed view of the target and arrow until I canted the bow so much that I could no longer touch the string to the tip of my nose. I did not start making real progress until I canted the bow about 20 degrees and just brought the string to my face completely bypassing my nose.

Even though I am finally hitting where I am aiming at 10 yards with a traditional bow (yeah!!!), it physiologically bothers me that I have gone from four anchor points on my face to only one rather movable inconsistent anchor point on my face. Currently my only anchor point is my index finger in the corner of my mouth.

That said, I can now seem my target and arrow clearly. I can aim carefully. It is very comfortable. I am having fun. And, I am actually repeatedly hitting the exact spot for which I am aiming at 10 yards.

Of course, I worry that this one sort of rubbery sloppy anchor point might cause accuracy to fall apart as I eventually try to extend my shooting distance.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

I shoot both ways. As a right handed shooter when shooting out of a treestand I have the bow straight up if shooting to the severe right. If I have to shoot severly to the left and down out of the stand I have to cant it a lot. Anything straight forward has a little bit of a cant to it.

This just allows me to shoot more of a point on while looking straight down the arrow. I also believe it has a lot to do with geometry of the bow on whether or not a cant works well. For instance, my black bear risers love a cant but my Dorado riser loves to be straight up and down.


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## oneTone (Jun 29, 2013)

Rembrandt - I shoot my recurves with a slight cant. It has improved my accuracy. Enough time has passed that the honeymoon was over long ago. In regard to your shooting with a cant, you might find this video of interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ervc-Fp2d_c

And ... watch some of his other videos, the guy really can shoot.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

oneTone said:


> Rembrandt - I shoot my recurves with a slight cant. It has improved my accuracy. Enough time has passed that the honeymoon was over long ago. In regard to your shooting with a cant, you might find this video of interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ervc-Fp2d_c
> 
> And ... watch some of his other videos, the guy really can shoot.


I really did find it interesting because he addressed my main problem.....dropping the bow arm at release......It is an old bad habit that I have to overcome..


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## oneTone (Jun 29, 2013)

Rembrandt - I cant slightly and it has improved my accuracy. Been at it long enough for the "honeymoon" to wear off.

You might find this youtube video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ervc-Fp2d_c

Check out some of his other videos ... the guy can shoot.


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## oneTone (Jun 29, 2013)

Oops! I don't know what happened there. Glad the video was useful.


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## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I cant my Titan about one o'clock, helps get the arrow under my eye. Did not help much last wed. in New Brunswick when a bear went "huff, huff, huff, and charged under my 10 ft. tree-platform. Thought he was coming up to me! So shook up , I missed him at 15 yds. FOUR TIMES!!! Ddang I was shaking bad.


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## JT85 (Mar 14, 2012)

Whether shooting my longbow or recurve I always cant my bow.


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

I have a slight cant.....It just feels more natural. 

https://youtu.be/zFVOUUE2Tdo


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

jakeemt said:


> Where is Rick Barbee at? Somebody needs to tells these guys that only people who wear nail polish cant their bow.


most of my nail polish fell off.

I cant my longbow so that the angle of the sight window turns vertical. I cant my Predators a little, so that the corner of the sight window is on top of the arrow. My Border, not really much at all.

It's kind of like I just have to have _something_ vertical. With the radiused windows, the point and the corner can satisfy that need. With the longbow, the side of the sight window. With the border, they cut the top of the window flat for me, so I can level that, and my OCD is satisfied


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> I have a problem, if I align my feet properly I get a harsh swipe on my left breast.....that's painful so I have to open my stance to avoid that......I don't think that's good.....The canting of the bow helps some also.......but I really don't prefer it over straight up and down......always something........


What's proper good for?

If I stand like USA archery taught me in the instructor class, I am uncomfortable. if I am uncomfortable, I don't shoot well, and don't enjoy it. Screw that. Experiment, make note, adjust. It's play time! Work to improve because it's fun, not because it's your job, because it isn't


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## erotomaniac1928 (Sep 28, 2014)

My accuracy suffers when I cant. My 5's often coincide with a perfectly vertical bow


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

erotomaniac1928 said:


> My accuracy suffers when I cant. My 5's often coincide with a perfectly vertical bow


My "5s" coincide with pure de LUCK.......but I hope to change that soon....


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## muley40 (Jun 10, 2005)

Go over to stickbow Bryron Fergurson is having shooting clinic at this years Howard Hill Southern Classic shoot June 6th!


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

muley40 said:


> Go over to stickbow Bryron Fergurson is having shooting clinic at this years Howard Hill Southern Classic shoot June 6th!


I will do that but I'd like to know if he will be at Tannehill, this coming week-end? A friend of mine wants to go and have us set up a vendors tent there....His bows and my knifes.......


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BTW Muley.....where is that shoot?


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

We were taught to shoot by an old Outlaw who was primarily a HUNTER... and a productive one too. He taught me to shoot all which kinda’ ways , standing , kneeling , lying on the ground, shooting up , shooting down . Basically positioning the bow for the best Hunting shot (MEAT!!!) . The one thing he never did was show how to shoot standing straight up with the bow vertical (Target shooting) ... so our natural stance is a relaxed wide stance , somewhat crouched over, butt out ,hiding behind the bushes , bow canted to what is required for that shooting situation. No regrets !! 
I can still hit a nock @ 15 yards, but only target shoot for Fun .... and the Beer... 
And we really respect the expert target shooters who have the dedication and discipline to shoot the bow the Exact same way every time ... shooting machines !!! That’s Cool !!! ... Whatever works for your purpose. All Good eh !!!


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GPW said:


> We were taught to shoot by an old Outlaw who was primarily a HUNTER... and a productive one too. He taught me to shoot all which kinda’ ways , standing , kneeling , lying on the ground, shooting up , shooting down . Basically positioning the bow for the best Hunting shot (MEAT!!!) . The one thing he never did was show how to shoot standing straight up with the bow vertical (Target shooting) ... so our natural stance is a relaxed wide stance , somewhat crouched over, butt out ,hiding behind the bushes , bow canted to what is required for that shooting situation. No regrets !!
> I can still hit a nock @ 15 yards, but only target shoot for Fun .... and the Beer...
> And we really respect the expert target shooters who have the dedication and discipline to shoot the bow the Exact same way every time ... shooting machines !!! That’s Cool !!! ... Whatever works for your purpose. All Good eh !!!


That's what I'm trying to achieve.....repeatable form......I want each arrow to go from my bow with the same form as the previous.....its called consistancy...


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

i cant my martin hunter a little bit, i have a much better sight view when i do and better groups


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

oneTone said:


> Rembrandt - I cant slightly and it has improved my accuracy. Been at it long enough for the "honeymoon" to wear off.
> 
> You might find this youtube video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ervc-Fp2d_c
> 
> Check out some of his other videos ... the guy can shoot.


EXCELLENT video for me. Thanks!!!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

i guess there more important variables involved. the cant may allow better eye position above the nock, may somewhat compensate for a stiff arrow, keep the arrow on the shelf. may also (or may not, depending on how a person does it), cause the shooter to hunch, collapse, short draw, or break good alignment.

in any case, the cant of the bow itself is secondary. what the person does to achieve the cant, or does to allow string clearance, or does simply because they consider it.... whatever, has more direct influence, in my opinion, than the absolute angle of the bow.

then again, if you're shooting the bow more sideways than upright, your options are entirely different...


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## muley40 (Jun 10, 2005)

The Howard Hill Classic is at Tannehill Historical State Park, Mc Calla, AL.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

muley40 said:


> The Howard Hill Classic is at Tannehill Historical State Park, Mc Calla, AL.


That's the one I want to go to but I'm still wondering if Byron will be there...?


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

I started in 1956 & everyone I knew then canted their bow shooting instinctively. Sight shooters, straight up. I switched to compound in id 70s when they pretty much took over. Now, I got me a new Longbow to play with & still cant the bow. Howard Hill, guessing one of the most awesome instinctive shooters ever canted as did Fred Bear.. I saw BOTH styles at the NFAA Nationals last year.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

ahunter55 said:


> I started in 1956 & everyone I knew then canted their bow shooting instinctively. Sight shooters, straight up. I switched to compound in id 70s when they pretty much took over. Now, I got me a new Longbow to play with & still cant the bow. Howard Hill, guessing one of the most awesome instinctive shooters ever canted as did Fred Bear.. I saw BOTH styles at the NFAA Nationals last year.


Looking at those folks, I can pretty much tell they are shooting instinctively except for Byron who says he gap shoots....I have raised my anchor some and now I'm almost looking down the shaft and its helped my score some......I still have some bad shots however from creeping and not having that steady pull on the string.....I wish there was an easy solution to pounding the X ring with consistency but I know it takes time and determination......


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't think Howard Hill described his shooting as "instinctive". He talked about "split vision". John Schultz described Howard Hill's shooting the same way. Both talked about using the arrow to aim while focusing primarily on the target.

Sounds a lot like "gap" shooting to me.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

^and here we go.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

rembrandt said:


> Looking at those folks, *I can pretty much tell they are shooting instinctively *except for Byron who says he gap shoots....I have raised my anchor some and now I'm almost looking down the shaft and its helped my score some......I still have some bad shots however from creeping and not having that steady pull on the string.....I wish there was an easy solution to pounding the X ring with consistency but I know it takes time and determination......


Just curious?? How can you possibly tell they are shooting instinctive by a picture??

Matt


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> I wish there was an easy solution to pounding the X ring with consistency


There is:
Stop messing around, look at how the people who do the winning shoot and do that.

If you want to be a trick shooter, shoot like a trick shooter (and keep your film editor well paid). If you want to put arrows in the middle of the target, shoot like a target archer.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

aaaaand the nasty turn comes.....now


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

I shot tonight for a while....I actually shot quite a bit more consistant with the bow vertical than slightly canted.....I had some "fliers" to the left and right approx 2" either way from the center of the bullseye at 20-25yrds....When I held the bow vertical it seemed like it was easier to get my drawing arm back farther/deeper so I could keep the ARCHERS " T" alignment better. I truly think keeping the " T " is the KEY to CONSISTANT SHOOTING. Im just setting my new GM2 up still ( messing with arrow length, point weight, and limb weight ( prob going down to 45# from the current 50#) so I still have some trial & error in front of me, but its coming back to me pretty quick.


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

IMO....this is the key to good consistant shooting....Dont matter if you keep the bow vertical, cant it, or reverse cant it....keep your bow arm/arrow in line with your drawing release arm at anchor.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MGF said:


> I don't think Howard Hill described his shooting as "instinctive". He talked about "split vision". John Schultz described Howard Hill's shooting the same way. Both talked about using the arrow to aim while focusing primarily on the target.
> 
> Sounds a lot like "gap" shooting to me.


That's what I would call it and its hard to tell looking at photos and actually tell if they are using the tip of their arrows for reference points.....Its something I do but right now NOT so well......


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Accuracy in archery comes from consistency. Your mind and body can achieve vertical much more consistently than it can some random angle other than 90 degrees. That's just how our bodies work. 

The most consistent and accurate method of shooting a recurve is how the oly guys shoot every step away is a degradation in accuracy - which we all do. 

Look at it this way the vast majority of baseball pitchers throw basically the same. Yes there have been some great side arm pitchers but VERY damn few of them. If you want to be a pitcher you'd be better served to learn the way of the majority. 

If all your looking for is 15 yard hunting accuracy (nothing wrong with that) I wouldn't give this much thought but if you want more look at how accurate archers are shooting - people have been flinging arrows for thousands of years and the most accurate way to do so is established - no matter what our parents told us growing up none of us is so special that we are going to invent the wheel all over again.


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

Matt_Potter said:


> Accuracy in archery comes from consistency. Your mind and body can achieve vertical much more consistently than it can some random angle other than 90 degrees. That's just how our bodies work.
> 
> The most consistent and accurate method of shooting a recurve is how the oly guys shoot every step away is a degradation in accuracy - which we all do.
> 
> ...


To this I would add that if hunting is the goal, learn like this. At some proficient point, start the deviation . Start shooting quicker, at other than known yardages, different positions , solid color targets without a marked bull and canting if desired . Any other new task we learn, we learn the task and don't worry about speed at first. It'll come. And you should know the rules before you break them.


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

Now this is just a thought , and I don't know if it is a good one. Would a guy dropping his arm be able to cheat a little by putting what appears to be his quite tall target on its side and getting the bull down to a deers kill zone ? Might holding the arm a little lower stave off fatigue long enough to see some confidence inspiring results while building stamina and form ?


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

The shortcut is to have good equipment that you have confidence in and properly spined arrows . You cannot be wondering if some doo dad fad is what's holding you back. Glasses , contacts or lasik could probably shuffle into this catagory for some. Like wise you have to have a style that you know will work and not deviate from it, at least for quite awhile . Lastly you have to put some time in. The computer is fun and can be a helpful tool, but it is not time on the bales. Practice . Constructively.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Funny that picture of Howard Hill ^.... That’s Exactly how I stand and was taught ( and guess that’s Not the “proper “ way for target shooting ) ... but then I’m only worried about making that first shot count ... (for Supper)


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

GPW said:


> Funny that picture of Howard Hill ^.... That’s Exactly how I stand and was taught ( and guess that’s Not the “proper “ way for target shooting ) ... but then I’m only worried about making that first shot count ... (for Supper)


Is that how he shot? or is that what the advertizing agency photographer thought would look best? It's hard to tell with Hill reality and promotion all get mixed in with some good old fashion legend building. The pictures I've seen of him shooting field he had a very "classic" form. He lived right in my area for much of his adult life and Howard Hill Archery is still based here and I'll say the stories from guys who actually hunted with him differ greatly from the "legend" but, they are just stories just like the "stories" that created the legend.

Matt


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Matt_Potter said:


> Is that how he shot? or is that what the advertizing agency photographer thought would look best? It's hard to tell with Hill reality and promotion all get mixed in with some good old fashion legend building. The pictures I've seen of him shooting field he had a very "classic" form. He lived right in my area for much of his adult life and Howard Hill Archery is still based here and I'll say the stories from guys who actually hunted with him differ greatly from the "legend" but, they are just stories just like the "stories" that created the legend.
> 
> Matt



I would have to add that I think he was the best in the world and more than likely no one will beat his ability......the bow he was shooting most of the time that I viewed him was a straight stick bow, not a recurve and especially not a wheelie bow......He was born and raised in Alabama and is famous here......Byron Ferguson was also born in Bama......must be something in the water here for archers and musicians.......


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Plenty of videos to watch the master himself... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8UZneuggE


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## Joe Hohmann (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm German, so it's against my nature not to have the bow straight up and down.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

As Sr. Martin says, cant would affect your repeatability, do you bring it to the same angle. I'm mildly amused barebow royalty weighed in and instead it's Howard Hill etc. "Randolph Scott!" (Blazing Saddles)

Also, further you get out the more a cant would push the arrow the direction of the cant. Probably more an issue for outdoor distance target shooting then 3d then 20 yard type shooting then hunting, in that order. Fewer shots, shorter distance, ok. Bunch of shots for pure accuracy out at distance, bad idea. You're pushing your own arrow wide.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Pro and con is the number 1 consistent opinion on canting a bow......There are a lot of great shooters out there that can't the bow and probably a lot of target shooters that must be straight up and down.....the jury is still out for me and a few years back I tried both and ended with the upright bow.....Now, I'm thinking of using a slight cant to see how that helps or hinders my scores.........


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I think if you are shooting =or>20, or 3d type distances, or short hunting shots, canting might be ok if you can do a consistent angle/shot. An instructor would still tell you no but you can make it work by consistency.

But the jury verdict to me is in on distance shooting, you can watch someone's arrow veer from canting at 50-70 type distances. It's like wind effect. It just doesn't show up at 20 because the arrow is in the bale before it has time to veer and cost you.

To me it's like, you could have a submarine or sidearm or knuckleball pitcher at the mound, effective enough, but move them to OF and imagine if they tried that to throw out someone on a pop fly.......

Question then: if you shoot far or aspire to, should you cant if the technique is only applicable within a short distance envelope.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Azzurri said:


> I think if you are shooting =or>20, or 3d type distances, or short hunting shots, canting might be ok if you can do a consistent angle/shot. An instructor would still tell you no but you can make it work by consistency.
> 
> But the jury verdict to me is in on distance shooting, you can watch someone's arrow veer from canting at 50-70 type distances. It's like wind effect. It just doesn't show up at 20 because the arrow is in the bale before it has time to veer and cost you.
> 
> ...


GPW has a site you need to go to and watch this guy shoot......He cants the bow some and he is accurate as anyone would want to be......


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

rembrandt said:


> GPW has a site you need to go to and watch this guy shoot......He cants the bow some and he is accurate as anyone would want to be......


Keep in mind all those vids are edited and produced by an advertizing agency - He was a great shot but, you have to take the vids with a LARGE grain of salt or two.

Put Howard Hill on a 3D course with Dave Wallace or Calvin Smock and my money would be on Dave and Calvin.

Matt


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

If your a right handed, try canting it left.
Dan


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I went out today and shot upright but the main thing I was working on was keeping the bow arm up and watching the arrow through the window till it hit the target......My scores went up some to 224 and 220......Its a slow process but I can see 240s around the conner......Got to start stacking arrows into the 5 ring and it will happen......I had 8 Xs shooting the 220.....


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

rembrandt said:


> I went out today and shot upright but the main thing I was working on was keeping the bow arm up and watching the arrow through the window till it hit the target......My scores went up some to 224 and 220......Its a slow process but I can see 240s around the conner......Got to start stacking arrows into the 5 ring and it will happen......I had 8 Xs shooting the 220.....


If you had 8xs shooting the 220, how are you holding up physically during the round? Maybe you'd benefit from either shooting more or shooting lighter limbs. Cause I've shot almost 250 with lower Xs than that, and over 250 with not much more. Which suggests what you need to do is clean up flyers which in my experience is practice, fitness, and being sure you have the right weight. That x count but with that score just sounds like you have untapped potential.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Is that how he shot? or is that what the advertizing agency photographer thought would look best? It's hard to tell with Hill reality and promotion all get mixed in with some good old fashion legend building. The pictures I've seen of him shooting field he had a very "classic" form. He lived right in my area for much of his adult life and Howard Hill Archery is still based here and I'll say the stories from guys who actually hunted with him differ greatly from the "legend" but, they are just stories just like the "stories" that created the legend.
> 
> Matt


exactly ...

so many of the pictures , and footage of Howard Hill show him with what I consider actually pretty good standard archery form . Even John Schulz stands pretty straight up and down --- the cant for those lads is more a function of tiny arrow shelves and keeping the arrow on the bow IMO......
I cant my longbows for the very same reason . My Curves not so much.

by the way - modern 'curves aren't trad and instinctive aiming is a myth.
jus' sayin .........


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

benofthehood said:


> exactly ...
> 
> so many of the pictures , and footage of Howard Hill show him with what I consider actually pretty good standard archery form . Even John Schulz stands pretty straight up and down --- the cant for those lads is more a function of tiny arrow shelves and keeping the arrow on the bow IMO......
> I cant my longbows for the very same reason . My Curves not so much.
> ...


I went to the Tannehill archery shoot today and I would venture to say that there were 20 or so vendors which was nice for sure and my wife and I enjoyed it, course I enjoyed it more than she did......I asked her if she wanted a new bow and she asked me if I'd like a new sewing machine? That ended that subject. Anyway, I watched the guys warming up and I was surprised to see that the majority of those Trad shooters canted their bows........I'm going back in the morning and set up my knife display........


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

benofthehood said:


> exactly ...
> 
> so many of the pictures , and footage of Howard Hill show him with what I consider actually pretty good standard archery form . Even John Schulz stands pretty straight up and down --- the cant for those lads is more a function of tiny arrow shelves and keeping the arrow on the bow IMO......
> I cant my longbows for the very same reason . My Curves not so much.
> ...


I'm no expert but as far as I can tell (I've watched John Schulz's "Hitting them like Howard Hill" about 1000 times) He had pretty good form. I know that he canted the bow all different ways, did the swing draw thing (or whatever you'd call it) and so on but his alignment (that's what directs the arrow) looks good to me.

I read someplace that Howard Hill couldn't get arrows of the right spine that were long enough for him. Watching his videos, I can believe it. Still, look at his shoulders when he shoots.

Generally, and depending on what kind of shooting you're doing, I think there are aspects of "form" that are more critical than whether or not you cant the bow some.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

Actually Hill would probably agree with a lot of the comments here that might seem negative toward his shooting.

If you look at video of Hill shooting in slow motion his form is pretty good but quick. Then again how long can you hold a 90 lb bow at anchor . He liked a flat shooting arrow
and with bows that would be considered self bows today the high poundage was needed to get the arrow speed he liked.

He also said target form was more accurate but might be difficult to achieve with a heavy hunting bow and wouldn't provide the quick shot form awkward positions that was needed sometimes. I'll bet even the most dedicated target shooters make some adjustments in their shooting style when they're in the woods.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I wasn't aware of Hill shooting that heavy a bow.......nor that he was a snap shooter? I've watched just about all of Fred Bear's videos and he did have the shortest anchor I've ever witnessed.....


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

Matt_Potter said:


> Keep in mind all those vids are edited and produced by an advertizing agency - He was a great shot but, you have to take the vids with a LARGE grain of salt or two.
> 
> Put Howard Hill *on a 3D course with Dave Wallace or Calvin Smock and my money would be on Dave and Calvin.*Matt


And have those 2 gentlemen shoot a 90lbs Hill style longbow w/ cedar arrows against Mr Hill and I would take your bet.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

p508 said:


> He also said target form was more accurate but might be difficult to achieve with a heavy hunting bow and wouldn't provide the quick shot form awkward positions that was needed sometimes. I'll bet even the most dedicated target shooters make some adjustments in their shooting style when they're in the woods.


When I hunt I try to use the same form as I would on the range...I try. Cold weather clothing and the sort of obstructions that the forest is made of might necessitate some "compromises".

I practice form on the range and then I practice applying it in the woods. As the weather gets cold I continue to shoot outside wearing those heavy hunting clothes.

Putting everything in perspective, the shot I take when kneeling and crouched behind a tree in wait for a deer is likely to only be a 10 or 12 yard shot.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> And have those 2 gentlemen shoot a 90lbs Hill style longbow w/ cedar arrows against Mr Hill and I would take your bet.


Given that there are no Elephants or cape buffalo around here I don't see any reason to even consider a 90 pound bow...not even when using a self bow. Lots of deer have been killed with 45# self bows.

Other things have changed since Howard Hill's time. Hill and Schultz talked about taking shots at running deer at 60 yards. I recently read an article by one of the Wilhelm bros (I think Howard Hill was on the hunt)...I hope I'm remembering this right.

Anyway, the author tells of 3 or 4 of these guys ambushing a pig as he leaves a thicket and they make a pin cushion out of him from head to toe as he runs thrashing and squealing. As a recall, it was lucky shot to the spine that finally killed the pig.

Reading the old articles and watching some of the old films makes it clear that hunting "ethics" is MUCH different today. We try to shoot critters in the heart/lung rather than the feet, nose and tail. Nobody today would want to publicize such a sloppy kill.

These are the archery "heroes". Today, they'd be considered hacks.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Here's a link to the article. http://tmuss.tripod.com/shotfrompast/walt.htm



> We had literally shot that hog to ribbons. His lower jaw was completely gone, one front leg broken and intestines sticking out in three places. We checked up on the arrows. We had shot thirteen times and I had found the mark for one. Eight arrows were broken beyond repair. We estimated his weight at about 240 pounds and his tusks were seven inches long and perfect. One of Howard's arrows had gone through him and struck an oak tree. Ken's last arrow, evidently the one that had finished him, had completely shattered the spine. The arrow was not even dulled.


There's an example of some of the fine shooting done by archery's best of the best. LOL


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

MGF said:


> Given that there are no Elephants or cape buffalo around *here I don't see any reason to even consider a 90 pound bow*...not even when using a self bow. Lots of deer have been killed with 45# self bows.
> 
> Other things have changed since Howard Hill's time. Hill and Schultz talked about taking shots at running deer at 60 yards. I recently read an article by one of the Wilhelm bros (I think Howard Hill was on the hunt)...I hope I'm remembering this right.
> 
> ...


Have you ever tried to shoot a 90lbs longbow w/ cedar arrows? My guess is ''NO''. As for the hog story. In those days that's how bowhunting was because it's the way Indians killed animals and that's how Mr Hill was taught to kill w/ bow and arrow. You call a archery pioneer a ''hack'', it's very sad to read such slander on a archery site.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> Have you ever tried to shoot a 90lbs longbow w/ cedar arrows? My guess is ''NO''.


Content in context is the key. I thought I was pretty clear that I've never had a reason to even consider a 90# bow. No need to be guessing.


> As for the hog story. In those days that's how bowhunting was because it's the way Indians killed animals and that's how Mr Hill was taught to kill w/ bow and arrow. You call a archery pioneer a ''hack'', it's very sad to read such slander on a archery site.


What Native American tribes shot 90# bows? 

Again, read content in context. I didn't call anybody anything. I clearly made reference to how things have changed since Howard Hills time and said that someone who hunted that way today would be considered a hack. They would be.


How was Howard Hill an "archery pioneer"? Archery had been around for thousands of years before he was even born. Heck, in much of the world and for most uses, it had already been obsolete for a few hundred years. 

He was something of a marketing pioneer though in that he set about the task of selling bows and bow hunting to people who had firearms.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

overbo said:


> Have you ever tried to shoot a 90lbs longbow w/ cedar arrows? My guess is ''NO''. As for the hog story. In those days that's how bowhunting was because it's the way Indians killed animals and that's how Mr Hill was taught to kill w/ bow and arrow. You call a archery pioneer a ''hack'', it's very sad to read such slander on a archery site.


I can't think of any one person who has done more to set the sport backwards then Hill. We would be doing a lot better without his "pioneering" efforts.

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> I can't think of any one person who has done more to set the sport backwards then Hill. We would be doing a lot better without his "pioneering" efforts.
> 
> -Grant


It depends how you look at it. He probably helped the archery industry go forward in leaps and bounds...As did Fred Bear. They may not have contributed to getting people to shoot well but they sure got them spending more money on bows.

The numbers of people wanting to bow hunt must have also had an effect on the legal treatment of bow hunting.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

wow. that's just sad. the sport of what? If it's target archery doubt it. If it's bow hunting you are dead wrong sir.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

MGF said:


> It depends how you look at it. He probably helped the archery industry go forward in leaps and bounds...As did Fred Bear. They may not have contributed to getting people to shoot well but they sure got them spending more money on bows.
> 
> The numbers of people wanting to bow hunt must have also had an effect on the legal treatment of bow hunting.


Howard Hill and Fred Bear both were inspired by Saxton Pope and Art Young. The whole 90lb bow thing had nothing to do with Indians (though Pope was drawn into archery by ishi). It was considered a hunting weight English long bow at that time and Pope was quite clear that they considered the English long bow to be superior to all others. especially when it came to hunting. If you guys seriously think Howard Hill and Fred Bear set the sport of archery back you are down right silly. Ok rant over and I even promised myself I wouldn't get involved in dumb petty bickering with this thread but, my gosh that's just crazy.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

grantmac said:


> I can't think of any one person who has done more to set the sport backwards then Hill. *We would be doing a lot better without his "pioneering" efforts.*
> 
> -Grant


How?


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

grantmac said:


> I can't think of any one person who has done more to set the sport backwards then Hill. We would be doing a lot better without his "pioneering" efforts.
> 
> -Grant


Whoa......on this one I respectfully disagree......When I was a young man in the 40s and 50s I use to see between double features at the movies videos of Howard Hill and he was a super archer. His ability with a bow was similar to Bobby Jones in golf.....He had nothing like we have today and yet he won world Championships with long bows. Bobby Jones was an outstanding golfer with wood shafts and wood heads that are today relics but he could hit a ball 200 yds within ft. of a hole with unreal accuracy.....these people were amazing and HH was the best during his day......I believe three people contributed heavily to growth of archery during the 40s 50s and 60s and those where.....Howard Hill, Fred Bear and Errol Flynn as Robin Hood in the movies......I know, I went thru that era and after seeing them I had to have a bow.......


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

I wonder if most of his bad hits on that hog were to the right.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Hoyt said:


> I wonder if most of his bad hits on that hog were to the right.


Where did you view this? I'd like to take a look myself.....


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

There was definately one major difference between Howard Hill and some of the posters here. He never made nasty , disrespectfull and derogatory comments about other
people. Maybe that also had something to do with his enduring fame.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

jealousy


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

4nolz said:


> jealousy


yes


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

p508 said:


> There was definately one major difference between Howard Hill and some of the posters here. He never made nasty , disrespectfull and derogatory comments about other
> people. Maybe that also had something to do with his enduring fame.


I have to agree on that one.....we ARE ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS.......or we are suppose to be!


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

How about this .... Maybe keep your upper body perfectly straight like a shooting machine and cant from the waist ...???  Technically that should be good for shooting Up or down too eh ?


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

jakeemt said:


> ^and here we go.


Inevitable isn't it.



GPW said:


> How about this .... Maybe keep your upper body perfectly straight like a shooting machine and cant from the waist ...???  Technically that should be good for shooting Up or down too eh ?


Works for me...from shooting almost overhead, to moving targets, to right down alongside my foot...and a large number of bowhunters would agree. Many of the theories brought forth by those opposed do not hold water...and they are simply not willing to find any of it out.

To all aspiring legends in whatever your pursuit: there will ALWAYS be those wannabee/critics lined up to pee on your grave...and that's a fact Jack.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> I have to agree on that one.....we ARE ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS.......or we are suppose to be!


good point-might not want to start a canting thread since every one on canting ends this way as you know-then we'll need a thread about being nice to each other again.:BangHead::grin:


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

To all aspiring legends in whatever your pursuit: there will ALWAYS be those wannabee/critics lined up to pee on your grave...and that's a fact Jack.[/QUOTE]

A whole new motivational speech- Be good enough to have wannabees peeing on your grave-


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

Hoyt said:


> I wonder if most of his bad hits on that hog were to the right.


rembrandt..it was just a little dry humor after reading the posts on hog about all the shots, etc. Miss to right..cant to right. Howard Hill is my favorite of the old timers..really only one.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I realize that due to their obvious participation that Howard Hill and Fred Bear must have considered competition to somehow be important. That has nothing to do with my personal esteem for them. I have zero interest in competition or in champion competition archers. I appreciate Howard Hill and Fred Bear for their successful promotion of archery as a FUN interesting activity. In my case, I doubt that I would be enjoying archery had there been no Fred Bear. I am only interested in backyard archery, roving/stump shooting, and hunting.

I do very much enjoy 3D shoots. I enjoy happily meandering through an appealing outdoor course with opportunities to take shots at the life-like animal targets presented in interesting situations at varied distances. It is a fun very low intensity activity for me. I don’t fill out the score card because competition would reduce the fun for me. I have my own personal scoring system.

If I must prematurely leave the 3D course prior to finishing because I have lost all my arrows, then that was great fun while being a poor personal performance. If I finish the course with any remaining arrows in my quiver, then I am extremely happy. If I only lost a couple of arrows, then that was an exceptionally fun successful 3D shoot for me.

Only speaking for me!, the influence of canting on competition scores is completely irrelevant. Archery for me is ONLY about having FUN. If canting increases my enjoyment, then it is golden. Any competition with other archers makes archery more like work and reduces my fun.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Fallhunt your first paragraph could be describing me.X2.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

jakeemt said:


> Howard Hill and Fred Bear both were inspired by Saxton Pope and Art Young. The whole 90lb bow thing had nothing to do with Indians (though Pope was drawn into archery by ishi). It was considered a hunting weight English long bow at that time and Pope was quite clear that they considered the English long bow to be superior to all others. especially when it came to hunting. If you guys seriously think Howard Hill and Fred Bear set the sport of archery back you are down right silly. Ok rant over and I even promised myself I wouldn't get involved in dumb petty bickering with this thread but, my gosh that's just crazy.


What s this "you guys" garbage? I didn't say that he set anything back.

I commented on the specific article I posted a link to and some of the John Schulz/Howard Hill stories recounting 60 shots at running deer. I pointed out that a lot (hunting "ethics" specifically" had changed since Hill's time and speculated on how such practices would go over today.

Why do you have to read/quote what I wrote and then try to make some kind of crazy straw man out of it?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hoyt said:


> rembrandt..it was just a little dry humor after reading the posts on hog about all the shots, etc. Miss to right..cant to right. Howard Hill is my favorite of the old timers..really only one.


Judging by the hits on the hog there were lots of misses to the left...and to the right. Busted jaw, leg, intestines hanging out in several places etc.

In fact, out of (13 shots was it?) we aren't told of a single hit in the lungs. What do you suppose they were aiming at?

Wouldn't you think that guys who shoot tiny bits of fruit of the heads of other people could hit the lungs of a 240# pig?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

p508 said:


> There was definately one major difference between Howard Hill and some of the posters here. He never made nasty , disrespectfull and derogatory comments about other
> people. Maybe that also had something to do with his enduring fame.


I think "celebrity worship" has a lot to do with his enduring fame. People have a tendency to believe (and love) just about anything they see on film without thought or question.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

So MGF, you see nothing wrong w/ Mr Hill and his associates taking numerous shots at the same animal to kill it?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> So MGF, you see nothing wrong w/ Mr Hill and his associates taking numerous shots at the same animal to kill it?


I'm not sure I understand the question but it's not about what I think is right or wrong.

In the context of what would typically be viewed as sound "hunting ethics" today ( a view that I don't necessarily share), there would be all sorts of things wrong with that hunt.

In fact, there are more than a few members of this forum who think there should be state mandated shooting tests to try to avoid that very thing. I think there are some states (certainly some properties) that actually do it.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

MGF- I was a huge Howard Hill fan before I ever saw any video or movies of him- Try reading his books -it might change your mind about him.

Some of the movies and video are a little out there but that's Hollywood and they probably paid him more than he ever made with an archery shop.I don't
think there are very many archers around today who would turn down a movie studio's offer .


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

MGF said:


> What s this "you guys" garbage? I didn't say that he set anything back.
> 
> I commented on the specific article I posted a link to and some of the John Schulz/Howard Hill stories recounting 60 shots at running deer. I pointed out that a lot (hunting "ethics" specifically" had changed since Hill's time and speculated on how such practices would go over today.
> 
> Why do you have to read/quote what I wrote and then try to make some kind of crazy straw man out of it?


I don't think that was a "crazy straw man" arguement. I offered up a reason why guys used such heavy bows at that time, pointed out that they got they're start from guys who had no comercial interest in bow hunting, and wound up reiterating that insanity of Howard hill setting "the sport back". If you wrongfully got lumped I. With "you guys" then my apologies. Perhaps I should have phrased my points more clearly.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I stand by the statement that if Hill had never come along the sport would be in a better place. People shouldn't need "inspiration" to take up a bow, it should be something which burns in them like a need. I've been bending sticks since I was about 4 and NEVER have I needed some celebrity salesman to make me want to satisfy that desire. 

Creative editing, staged shots, straight-up fabrication of results are not the things I personally count as "inspirational".

-Grant


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

grantmac said:


> I stand by the statement that if Hill had never come along the sport would be in a better place. People shouldn't need "inspiration" to take up a bow, it should be something which burns in them like a need. I've been bending sticks since I was about 4 and NEVER have I needed some celebrity salesman to make me want to satisfy that desire.
> 
> Creative editing, staged shots, straight-up fabrication of results are not the things I personally count as "inspirational".
> 
> -Grant


Well, Grant......that just shows to go ya that people are different.....Look what happened to sales at Lancaster and other Archery shops when "Hunger Games" came out and Katness did her thing with a bow and lots of girls hit the shops ordering bows.......I came up watching Errol Flynn in Robin Hood and it put a hunger in me big time to get a bow.....Fred Bear's videos put the icing on the cake......I played all the sports, in school, football, basketball and baseball and I had little time for archery or golf but as the others faded, archery became my game along with golf......I would venture to say that neither Howard Hill or Fred Bear's main intent was to lure people into archery.....it was their devotion to the game that spread out over many folks.....I think it still does........


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

MGF said:


> Judging by the hits on the hog there were lots of misses to the left...and to the right. Busted jaw, leg, intestines hanging out in several places etc.
> 
> In fact, out of (13 shots was it?) we aren't told of a single hit in the lungs. What do you suppose they were aiming at?
> 
> Wouldn't you think that guys who shoot tiny bits of fruit of the heads of other people could hit the lungs of a 240# pig?



Maybe he chocked...or the hog was a couple hundred yards off.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> Well, Grant......that just shows to go ya that people are different.....Look what happened to sales at Lancaster and other Archery shops when "Hunger Games" came out and Katness did her thing with a bow and lots of girls hit the shops ordering bows.......I came up watching Errol Flynn in Robin Hood and it put a hunger in me big time to get a bow.....Fred Bear's videos put the icing on the cake......I played all the sports, in school, football, basketball and baseball and I had little time for archery or golf but as the others faded, archery became my game along with golf......I would venture to say that neither Howard Hill or Fred Bear's main intent was to lure people into archery.....it was their devotion to the game that spread out over many folks.....I think it still does........


Fred Bear and Howard Hill made a significant portion of their living selling bows. It just doesn't seem reasonable to suggest that they weren't trying to sell archery.

IMO, their devotion was to their business an livelihood. There's nothing wrong with that but it also doesn't seem reasonable to make it sound like some sort of holly quest. It's business and showmanship.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hoyt said:


> Maybe he chocked...or the hog was a couple hundred yards off.


I think the article says the hog was less than 40 yards off. They got it to run out of the thicket by chucking rocks in there. As I read the article, they started spraying arrows when it ran out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> Well, Grant......that just shows to go ya that people are different.....Look what happened to sales at Lancaster and other Archery shops when "Hunger Games" came out and Katness did her thing with a bow and lots of girls hit the shops ordering bows.......I came up watching Errol Flynn in Robin Hood and it put a hunger in me big time to get a bow.....Fred Bear's videos put the icing on the cake......I played all the sports, in school, football, basketball and baseball and I had little time for archery or golf but as the others faded, archery became my game along with golf......I would venture to say that neither Howard Hill or Fred Bear's main intent was to lure people into archery.....it was their devotion to the game that spread out over many folks.....I think it still does........


Katniss isn't real and we never pretended the shots were. She also didn't sell bows.
Hill was a real person, with real commercial motives and a real marketing technique which required all his shooting look good. Like Katniss he used state of the art film manipulation to sell us that reality.

He also made claims about bows which are simply lies used to promote his product. Unfortunately Hillophiles keep repeating them and now they are woven into the fabric of many people's archery mindset.

Want a real hero? Horace Ford. He didn't ever sell anything except one of the greatest books on archery ever written.

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

jakeemt said:


> I don't think that was a "crazy straw man" arguement. I offered up a reason why guys used such heavy bows at that time, pointed out that they got they're start from guys who had no comercial interest in bow hunting, and wound up reiterating that insanity of Howard hill setting "the sport back". If you wrongfully got lumped I. With "you guys" then my apologies. Perhaps I should have phrased my points more clearly.


I don't even know what "setting the sport back" would mean. Who had no commercial interest?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Katniss isn't real and we never pretended the shots were. She also didn't sell bows.
> t


But the influence is real. That's what we're up against.

Here it is the year 2015 and, just like in decades past, people fall all over themselves to believe, love and follow what they see on screen.

It's critical thinking that have been set back. PT Barnum was onto this as he was quoted as having said there's a sucker born every minute.


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

MGF said:


> I think the article says the hog was less than 40 yards off. They got it to run out of the thicket by chucking rocks in there. As I read the article, they started spraying arrows when it ran out.


Well, at least they killed it..that's all that really mattered back in those days.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Grant.....I think HH won the worlds championship and that's not cannon fodder.....He was good, there is no doubt about that........


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

I can understand differences of opinion regarding famous people but why does it make a difference how someone is motivated to take up a sport -in this case archery.
I started shooting a bow when I was about 8 as consolation from my father who wouldn't let me have a BB gun- I liked shooting it and have been doing so ever since- Someone else sees a movie and is motivated to start. Is there a pecking order for what kind of initial motivation creates a worthy archer?


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

p508 said:


> I can understand differences of opinion regarding famous people but why does it make a difference how someone is motivated to take up a sport -in this case archery.
> I started shooting a bow when I was about 8 as consolation from my father who wouldn't let me have a BB gun- I liked shooting it and have been doing so ever since- Someone else sees a movie and is motivated to start. Is there a pecking order for what kind of initial motivation creates a worthy archer?


No pecking order that I know of......all I know is that things are highlighted when your young.....things seem more exciting.....I know I loved the flight of the arrow and even today I get a thrill out of it......yes....I was motivated by Robin Hood and Fred Bear.......I can see no harm in that............


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

grantmac said:


> He also made claims about bows which are simply lies used to promote his product. Unfortunately Hillophiles keep repeating them and now they are woven into the fabric of many people's archery mindset.
> 
> Want a real hero? Horace Ford. He didn't ever sell anything except one of the greatest books on archery ever written.
> 
> -Grant


Please elaborate what lies did Hill tell about bows?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

jakeemt said:


> Please elaborate what lies did Hill tell about bows?


Recurve bows are harder to shoot than longbows, complete lie by someone who sold longbows.

Also the lie about needing to short draw due to not getting arrow which were stiff enough, which lead to the lie of needing to shoot a heavy bow. Don't buy that one little bit. Horace Ford didn't need to in the late 1800s and he shot the same weights as Hill.

If Hoyt used the same marketing now as Hill did then we'd be up in arms.

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> Grant.....I think HH won the worlds championship and that's not cannon fodder.....He was good, there is no doubt about that........


What world championship?


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sorry I hate to be rude but, you just don't. recurves of the 1920's were nothing like they are today and they were in fact rather hard to shoot well which is why most (including Horace Ford) used a long bow. Sounds like you have some Horace Ford hero worship going on yourself and get kind a jealous that Hill get's all the attention while your hero is relegated to obscurity.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

jakeemt said:


> Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sorry I hate to be rude but, you just don't. recurves of the 1920's were nothing like they are today and they were in fact rather hard to shoot well which is why most (including Horace Ford) used a long bow. Sounds like you have some Horace Ford hero worship going on yourself and get kind a jealous that Hill get's all the attention while your hero is relegated to obscurity.


Hill maintained his longbow farce long after it was relevant, which by your numbers was before his time. Why? To sell longbows....
Of course the statement has been maintained by those folks that somehow place Hill on an even higher pedestal then he placed himself.

I have no heros in the archery world beyond those who I've personally shot with and learned from. Ben Rogers, Alan Eagleton, John Demmer, Mark Hodges and Dewayne Martin don't need creative editing to show how well they shoot. Unlike Hill they don't have to fabricate their ability.

-Grant


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

As a kid , we didn’t know of HH or Fred Bear or anybody like that , We liked the* Indians *in the movies , so was our motivation to Archery .... but they lost eh ...


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GPW said:


> As a kid , we didn’t know of HH or Fred Bear or anybody like that , We liked the* Indians *in the movies , so was our motivation to Archery .... but they lost eh ...


You are probably considerably younger than my generation......


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I stand by the statement that if Hill had never come along the sport would be in a better place. *People shouldn't need "inspiration" to take up a bow, it should be something which burns in them like a need.* I've been bending sticks since I was about 4 and NEVER have I needed some celebrity salesman to make me want to satisfy that desire.
> 
> Creative editing, staged shots, straight-up fabrication of results are not the things I personally count as "inspirational".
> 
> -Grant


Ya have to start somewhere , and being inspired - whether it is Simon Fairweather, Robin Hood , Howard Hill or Levi Morgan - brings people into the sport . 
I enjoy Howard Hill and his legacy , much akin to Swinehart, Horace Ford and Chester Stevenson.
I think it would be a pretty small shooting line if people and their products were not promoting the sport. And by default , if people were not doing well and improving they wouldn't be bringing new people into the sport like we have today ... and ... people like Sid at Border would not be spending any money or time developing new technology ... ditto SKY, Hoyt, Samick ,W&W etc etc

there are flaws to all the myths and legacy's ... but Hill is all right by me . 

Don't really see the need to flame the dead nor do I encourage the myths either , but not really sure how you see Hill setting the sport backwards or some such?


And his comment about recurves , written in the pre glass days rings quite true from much of the reading I have done. And I am sure a good dose was also self promotion involved but so what who doesn't these days ? - surely that is evident in every facet of archery we encounter ?

I would go so far as to suggest that the Internet has dragged archery backwards far more so than Hill. at least for a period he turned up to tournaments ......... dodgy film making in Africa aside.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

benofthehood said:


> Ya have to start somewhere , and being inspired - whether it is Simon Fairweather, Robin Hood , Howard Hill or Levi Morgan - brings people into the sport .
> I enjoy Howard Hill and his legacy , much akin to Swinehart, Horace Ford and Chester Stevenson.
> I think it would be a pretty small shooting line if people and their products were not promoting the sport. And by default , if people were not doing well and improving they wouldn't be bringing new people into the sport like we have today ... and ... people like Sid at Border would not be spending any money or time developing new technology ... ditto SKY, Hoyt, Samick ,W&W etc etc
> 
> ...


Well said.......


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

Hill had a 32inch draw length - he shortened up his draw so he could shoot 28Inch arrows that were a lot lighter than a 32inch cedar with an 80-90lb spine. He didn't advocate 
that everybody should shoot shorter arrows.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

Some people live shallow kneejerk thoughtless lives based on simple phrases and concepts that are provided to them by those who believe they are just a bit smarter and more important than the other sheep. The enlightened important “smarter” ones wish to control those sheep with their simple shallow herd mentality. They provide those sheep with simple concepts like “embrace diversity”, “be sensitive”, and be an “ethical hunter”.

Others live a more contemplative life to evaluate life’s issues for themselves. The controllers hate them and spend a lot of time pointing and screaming at them (and about them).

I do think people get much enjoyment out of arguing pointless things such as whether one who hunts with a compound bow or crossbow is a “real archer” or whether that is “real archery”. It is great fun. I enjoy arguing and reading such arguments.

But seriously, what does it really matter. We dump tons of targeted chemical poisons on crop fields to kill countless numbers of insects which are members of the Animal Kingdom. We mercilessly and indiscriminately kill those animals while we then fret because someone or a group made a pin cushion out of a wild hog. The controllers often don’t even apply the same rules to themselves. I want everyone else to drive 55 mph because I think it is safer and uses less fossil fuels, but of course I hardly ever have time to slow down to 55 mph myself. I just think it is the best law for “them” (i.e., the sheep).

As with most human fashions and ethics it is all just silliness based on the desire of the few controllers trying to control the vast majority of sheep mentalities in our herd. I might not be able to hit a barn at 10 yards and yet decide that it would just be fun to take a poke at a hog 50 yards away. If you condemn me as an “unethical hunter”, I just think that is hilarious. After all, I am a human and it is just a stupid hog. Luckily I do not need to obey anyone else’s concepts of ethical hunting.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

GPW said:


> As a kid , we didn’t know of HH or Fred Bear or anybody like that , We liked the* Indians *in the movies , so was our motivation to Archery .... but they lost eh ...


EXACTLY...exposure to bows and arrows in the early 50's was minimal...and the first literature I would have come across was in Boy Scout text and Boy's Life Magazines. I was on my 3rd bow by the time I started to take notice of people's names that I'd heard more than once. Robin Hood had offered the only displays of shooting a bow with accuracy...the basic concept even a child can grasp and which continues to be the objective with nearly every arrow we shoot.

The point is that generally the bug bites when we SEE someone shoot a bow. In the alternative, some will see a bow for the first time when one is placed in their hands and all it takes is launching their first arrow....and they then become the witness of something that strikes them with the same AWE (...or not, but then most of the "not's" aren't here for "help").

As benofthehood has said...



benofthehood;1073510409 said:


> there are flaws to all the myths and legacy's ...


...and many of the supposed details offered here...on either side of the fence... read like something from a book of fractured fairy tales. To the uniformed reader, please do any research closer to the source rather than take what's been said here as gospel. IMO, even offering any "corrections" at this point... amid such division...would only add fuel to the fire.

These earlier noteworthy people were not a bunch of knuckleheads, unwilling to explore the available options and do their own experimenting...much like what continues to this day...and will into the future.

I'm sure that my start as a child is why I introduce people to shooting a bow from a child's perspective: run with your imagination and give little doubt to its limits...yours or anyone else's. Everyone has "their own way" (life would be dull otherwise) and "respect" is not a one way street. Enjoy, Rick.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I think that is true about Indians in the movies plus Robin Hood and also perhaps movies about medieval and ancient time periods. I also vaguely recall playing with those toy bows and the arrows with the little red suction cups for points.

However, in my case watching Fred Bear evoked my first thoughts that archery and bowhunting were sports that could be pursued in the present. It was after I already had the bug that I later learned of all the other pioneers, innovators, and personalities who contributed to the rebirth of archery. In fact, in my case the writings of Chuck Adams probably had the most influence following Fred Bear.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Man did this thread take a turn since I last checked in...

Interesting stuff guys!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

fallhunt said:


> Some people live shallow kneejerk thoughtless lives based on simple phrases and concepts that are provided to them by those who believe they are just a bit smarter and more important than the other sheep. The enlightened important “smarter” ones wish to control those sheep with their simple shallow herd mentality. They provide those sheep with simple concepts like “embrace diversity”, “be sensitive”, and be an “ethical hunter”.
> 
> Others live a more contemplative life to evaluate life’s issues for themselves. The controllers hate them and spend a lot of time pointing and screaming at them (and about them).
> 
> ...


I don't think anybody really cares how many 50 yard pot shots you take at a hog. I don't. I'm just wondering whether or not it's going to be on TV or if a book will be written about it. Do you think that many archers will try copy your shooting style and repeat your words as if they we gospel? 

I'm no sociologist but I think Howard Hill's film career is largely responsible for his cult like following.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MGF said:


> I'm no sociologist but I think Howard Hill's film career is largely responsible for his cult like following.


When someone fabricates their abilities to sell themselves they really aren't a role model for ANYONE.

People see the films and say "I wanna shoot like Hill, look how good he is". The problem is that Hill wasn't as good as Hill was. Let that sink in. People want to be as good as a myth, a fake, a liar.
Do you really want to defend a liar? A fake? Someone who would shoot a chained animal just for a good bit of film?

We'd be far better off without that person being part of our history, he sickens me.

-Grant


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

MGF said:


> I don't think anybody really cares how many 50 yard pot shots you take at a hog. I don't. I'm just wondering whether or not it's going to be on TV or if a book will be written about it. Do you think that many archers will try copy your shooting style and repeat your words as if they we gospel?
> 
> I'm no sociologist but I think Howard Hill's film career is largely responsible for his cult like following.


Well I hope you are happy. You have completely crushed my dreams! No book, no TV hunting show, and no emulation. I suppose a movie deal is out too. That’s harsh. I will never get a cult like following now!!!:sad:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

GPW said:


> As a kid , we didn’t know of HH or Fred Bear or anybody like that , We liked the* Indians *in the movies , so was our motivation to Archery .... but they lost eh ...


The Illinois state legislature gets the credit for my initial interest in archery.

I don't know what Illinois is like now but, in those days, a firearms tag was county specific. There were no guaranty that you'd get a tag for the county you requested. Archery tags were state wide. Additionally, as I recall, there were some counties where you couldn't hunt deer with firearms at all.

Since I had limited places to hunt near home, archery seemed the best way to go.

There was no internet. The first I ever heard of Howard Hill was in one of the hunting magazines after I had already been bow hunting a while.

I guess I vaguely remember seeing Fred Bear on the old hunting shows but I wasn't a regular viewer and never paid all that much attention to it. Naturally I was aware of Bear Archery once I started shooting and hunting with bows.

My father is the one who introduced me to shooting, hunting and fishing. That in turn lead to interests many other related areas including archery.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> When someone fabricates their abilities to sell themselves they really aren't a role model for ANYONE.
> 
> People see the films and say "I wanna shoot like Hill, look how good he is". The problem is that Hill wasn't as good as Hill was. Let that sink in. People want to be as good as a myth, a fake, a liar.
> Do you really want to defend a liar? A fake? Someone who would shoot a chained animal just for a good bit of film?
> ...


National and world leaders get into position in the very same way. It would be better if they were just out playing with bows. LOL

Animosity toward Howard Hill ...or PT Barnum is just wasted effort. It's what the public wants and somebody is going to give it to them.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

grantmac said:


> When someone fabricates their abilities to sell themselves they really aren't a role model for ANYONE.
> 
> People see the films and say "I wanna shoot like Hill, look how good he is". The problem is that Hill wasn't as good as Hill was. Let that sink in. People want to be as good as a myth, a fake, a liar.
> Do you really want to defend a liar? A fake? Someone who would shoot a chained animal just for a good bit of film?
> ...


Well I guess that settles it- I'm going outside to burn my Hill books- In fact I'll throw in Byron Ferguson too-


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

p508 said:


> Well I guess that settles it- I'm going outside to burn my Hill books- In fact I'll throw in Byron Ferguson too-


Whoa....don't do that, mail them my way......I especially want "Become the Arrow" by Byron Ferguson.....


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

grantmac said:


> When someone fabricates their abilities to sell themselves they really aren't a role model for ANYONE. People want to be as good as a myth, a fake, a liar.
> Do you really want to defend a liar? A fake? Someone who would shoot a chained animal just for a good bit of film?
> 
> We'd be far better off without that person being part of our history, he sickens me.
> ...


The more you comment the more disturbing your comments get. What's your dog in the game? Why be so disrespectful? I could respect your opinion is you said "something like I just don't think has was as great as everyone thinks." but, instead he sickens you? You wish the man never existed? That smacks of someone with A) a serious axe to grind B) serious emotional problems or C) both.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> Whoa....don't do that, mail them my way......I especially want "Become the Arrow" by Byron Ferguson.....


Ok- maybe I'll keep that one out of the fire- actually it's not mine- I borrowed it from my clubs library and need to return it

It has large section on deer hunting by Moon phases -interesting but too complicated for me-


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

grantmac said:


> When someone fabricates their abilities to sell themselves they really aren't a role model for ANYONE.
> 
> People see the films and say "I wanna shoot like Hill, look how good he is". The problem is that Hill wasn't as good as Hill was. Let that sink in. People want to be as good as a myth, a fake, a liar.
> Do you really want to defend a liar? A fake? Someone who would shoot a chained animal just for a good bit of film?
> ...


Pretty strong accusations. I'm assuming you knew Mr Hill personally and participated on some if not many of his hunts to have such a sower judgment against him. I sure hope your feelings are only towards Mr Hill and no other archers past or present because if you do. I would suggest stop taking part of something that makes you so ugly.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

We are ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS......remember?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

p508 said:


> Hill had a 32inch draw length - he shortened up his draw so he could shoot 28Inch arrows that were a lot lighter than a 32inch cedar with an 80-90lb spine. He didn't advocate
> that everybody should shoot shorter arrows.


Reading his books, I sure got that impression.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> Pretty strong accusations. I'm assuming you knew Mr Hill personally and participated on some if not many of his hunts to have such a sower judgment against him. I sure hope your feelings are only towards Mr Hill and no other archers past or present because if you do. I would suggest stop taking part of something that makes you so ugly.


The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. Howard Hill put himself out there with some mighty big claims. Today, folks continue to make claims on behalf of Howard Hill. They just get bigger.

Earlier in the thread I asked "What world championships?" Maybe I missed it but I didn't see an answer. Ron LaClair is another one. What world championship?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> We are ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS......remember?


Sure.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> Reading his books, I sure got that impression.


If he advocated reducing your draw length it was probably more to keep people from having to shoot small telephone poles- I remember reading an article he wrote for an archery magazine-early seventies- where he mentioned that a slightly crunched up posture would reduce your draw length a little and help prevent injuries plus would help keep long draw archers from having to shoot long heavy arrows. Don't think that's an issue with carbon. 

I have a 60" r/d bow thats 53 llbs and stacks to 61lbs at my 30 " draw. It's a real beast. I shoot it crunched up with 28 1/2 inch arrows once in a while . The accuracy isn't bad at short range- only problem is it totally messes up my my form for when I'm using my regular bows- takes me about 50 arrows to readjust.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

MGF said:


> The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. Howard Hill put himself out there with some mighty big claims. Today, folks continue to make claims on behalf of Howard Hill. They just get bigger.
> 
> Earlier in the thread I asked "What world championships?" Maybe I missed it but I didn't see an answer. Ron LaClair is another one. What world championship?


You are so stuck on paper punching and scores. If that's your only measure of a archers credibility? You obviously are a target archer more than a bowhunter. Many of us that are bowhunters don't merit the amount of credibility as you will for a trophy, plaque, and what not for championships. Shooting at an a live animal is very much different than foam or paper, at least it is for me. To say that championships ''will always'' transform to hunting situations IMO, can't be a absolute. Of course the one that can better prepare themselves. The more the deck is stacked in their favor but again, shooting for scores isn't the only way to skin this cat.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MGF said:


> The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. Howard Hill put himself out there with some mighty big claims. Today, folks continue to make claims on behalf of Howard Hill. They just get bigger.
> 
> Earlier in the thread I asked "What world championships?" Maybe I missed it but I didn't see an answer. Ron LaClair is another one. What world championship?


I will go and check his record.....somewhere I read he twice won the worlds best Archer Award......Gotta find it however....


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

At the moment, this is all I can find......

Howard Hill was an archer who was unofficially referred to as the "World's Greatest Archer". He is the only person to win 196 archery field tournaments in succession. He was also a football, baseball, and basketball player at Auburn University. He was inducted into the Alabama Sports Hall of Fame in 1971 for his skill in archery.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> You are so stuck on paper punching and scores. If that's your only measure of a archers credibility? cat.


You misread something. I'm not stuck on anything.

Somebody in this thread...I think it was Rembrandt, said that Howard Hill won world championships with a longbow. I asked what world championships?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> At the moment, this is all I can find......
> 
> Howard Hill was an archer who was unofficially referred to as the "World's Greatest Archer". He is the only person to win 196 archery field tournaments in succession. He was also a football, baseball, and basketball player at Auburn University. He was inducted into the Alabama Sports Hall of Fame in 1971 for his skill in archery.


But cite your sources. That same paragraph is repeated word for word in several places and nobody cites any source for the information. 

This article http://www.archeryhalloffame.com/Hill.html says he is the only archer to have won 196 consecutive field archery tournaments without listing any sources. Wackypedia copies parts of this article word for word without citing any sources.

Maybe I don't know where to look but all I find on Howard Hill is a bunch of "media hype" type garbage.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Here's a bunch more on his film career. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0384325/


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

MGF said:


> The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. Howard Hill put himself out there with some mighty big claims. Today, folks continue to make claims on behalf of Howard Hill. They just get bigger.
> 
> Earlier in the thread I asked "What world championships?" Maybe I missed it but I didn't see an answer.* Ron LaClair* is another one. What world championship?


Sorry, I didn't see Mr LaClair's mentioned in this H Hill discussion so I assumed as far as you are concerned, both men have less credibility for not winning world championships.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

LOL.....I wonder if the guy who let HH shoot the apple off his head would have had second thoughts if he had read all these negative posts?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

overbo said:


> Sorry, I didn't see Mr LaClair's mentioned in this H Hill discussion so I assumed as far as you are concerned, both men have less credibility for not winning world championships.


You're setting up a straw man here. I never set winning world championships as any sort of requirement or criteria. The claim of having won world championships was offered as evidence of his shooting prowess. I'm simply trying to substantiate the claim.

Here's a television interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZLgBDj768 where Ron Laclair claims to have won the 1980 world longbow championship. What championship was it? I don't find anything but I read someplace that it was some rendezvous shoot. 

When you make a claim that turns out to be false, you loose credibility.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> LOL.....I wonder if the guy who let HH shoot the apple off his head would have had second thoughts if he had read all these negative posts?


What guy was that? Are you talking about the scene in the short film? I saw Super Man fly on film too. Check out the cool stuff that Iron Man can do.

Movie magic is cool.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

overbo said:


> You are so stuck on paper punching and scores. If that's your only measure of a archers credibility? You obviously are a target archer more than a bowhunter. Many of us that are bowhunters don't merit the amount of credibility as you will for a trophy, plaque, and what not for championships. Shooting at an a live animal is very much different than foam or paper, at least it is for me. To say that championships ''will always'' transform to hunting situations IMO, can't be a absolute. Of course the one that can better prepare themselves. The more the deck is stacked in their favor but again, shooting for scores isn't the only way to skin this cat.


A target is the only quantifiable measure of true accuracy.
One can be accurate enough to to kill animals and still have no chance of ever winning a championship, or perhaps even a local shoot.
I think we can all agree that target archery does not automatically make you a better hunter. Spending years in the woods learning makes one a better hunter.
But the archer who consistently shoots the highest score, is the best shot.
It is what it is.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> LOL.....I wonder if the guy who let HH shoot the apple off his head would have had second thoughts if he had read all these negative posts?


I hate to side with his detractors but I never quite bought into that video- An apple is bad enough but the film has HH shooting a small prune or apricot off the guys head. I always wondered if maybe the guys long hair was used to hide a steel protective plate just in case . I don't doubt he made the shots but their had to be some protection involved. In fact on the prune/apricot shot the guys back was to the camera so maybe the head was on a dummy. Either way the target was on a dummy.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

1980 longbow championship wilsonville Alabama. Probably and event put on by the Howard Hill archery club by the same place. At that time my guess is that there was no such thing as the IBO traditional class and a shoot where 400 guys all with longbows and wood arrows showed up was billed as the the "world archery championship". The "TV show"bayou refer to is some local access show with and older white haired gal and an old school microphone. I am positive I could track down any of the info you must have on it but, frankly I just don't care enough. Mr Laclair is a well respected member of the archery community and with good reason. I see no credibility issue there.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

p508 said:


> I hate to side with his detractors but I never quite bought into that video- An apple is bad enough but the film has HH shooting a small prune or apricot off the guys head. I always wondered if maybe the guys long hair was used to hide a steel protective plate just in case . I don't doubt he made the shots but their had to be some protection involved. In fact on the prune/apricot shot the guys back was to the camera so maybe the head was on a dummy. Either way the target was on a dummy.


Of course there was some protection. I'r holly man. That's called stage craft.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

jakeemt said:


> Of course there was some protection. I'r holly man. That's called stage craft.


There you go you summed him right up ;-)

Matt


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

jakeemt said:


> 1980 longbow championship wilsonville Alabama. Probably and event put on by the Howard Hill archery club by the same place. At that time my guess is that there was no such thing as the IBO traditional class and a shoot where 400 guys all with longbows and wood arrows showed up was billed as the the "world archery championship". The "TV show"bayou refer to is some local access show with and older white haired gal and an old school microphone. I am positive I could track down any of the info you must have on it but, frankly I just don't care enough. Mr Laclair is a well respected member of the archery community and with good reason. I see no credibility issue there.


Yes, I found that. I think a credibility issue exists if it's misrepresented.

I don't know if winning that shoot makes on a world champion or not. I think there are and have been longbow competitions all over the world going back hundreds of years.

Normally a "championship" title includes the name of the sanctioning body...NFAA, IBO or whatever. They can each have their own "champion" in each class.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

p508 said:


> I hate to side with his detractors but I never quite bought into that video- An apple is bad enough but the film has HH shooting a small prune or apricot off the guys head. I always wondered if maybe the guys long hair was used to hide a steel protective plate just in case . I don't doubt he made the shots but their had to be some protection involved. In fact on the prune/apricot shot the guys back was to the camera so maybe the head was on a dummy. Either way the target was on a dummy.


Hill never made the shot on the small item.....the guy got up and ran......


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> LOL.....I wonder if the guy who let HH shoot the apple off his head would have had second thoughts if he had read all these negative posts?


Look closely at the movie, it was a prop-stunt.
Look closely at the vast majority of Hill's stuff and you can easily spot the creative editing.

Just like winning a string of "championships", 196 is every week for almost 4 years. While shooting films, without taking a break for holidays, without appearing on any records kept by any organization.
Without a doubt Hill was an above average archer. But he is not a person whom anyone that values honesty or integrity could possibly respect.

Moreover anyone who would shoot a chained animal just to get it on film I would rather see dead and I could care less what anyone thinks of that opinion.

-Grant


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

who do you respect Grant? Or admire regarding archery? You would rather see a person dead than the (abused) animal?


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

4nolz said:


> who do you respect Grant? Or admire regarding archery? You would rather see a person dead than the (abused) animal?


The abuser, yeah kind of.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

4nolz said:


> who do you respect Grant? Or admire regarding archery? You would rather see a person dead than the (abused) animal?


I respect those guys putting it on the line without the creative editing: Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Ren Sarns, Matt Potter, Dewayne Martin, Mark Hodges and many more.

If I was present when someone shot a chained animal just to make a film I'd put the bullet in them myself and sleep fine.

-Grant


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Complaint Department...6' Down.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> Hill never made the shot on the small item.....the guy got up and ran......


Look at it again- the guy got up and ran when they put a pea on his head


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

grantmac said:


> I respect those guys putting it on the line without the creative editing: Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Ren Sarns, Matt Potter, Dewayne Martin, Mark Hodges and many more........................


Who???? 

Wow, I have never heard of any of those guys from reading archery books, archery magazine articles, watching archery videos, or from discussions among archers at archery ranges and such during a 49 year interest in archery.

Interesting, what were their important roles in archery (historic, pioneers, promotion, innovation, etc.)?


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

grantmac said:


> If I was present when someone shot a chained animal just to make a film I'd put the bullet in them myself and sleep fine.
> 
> -Grant



sleep fine on death row


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

There are many different facets to automobile enthusiasm. One can be an avid automobile enthusiast without being a NASCAR fan. I hasten to add that I am a NASCAR fan – LOL.

One can be an avid archer and/or avid bowhunter while enjoying the sport of archery in many different ways. This is only one of the many great things about archery in my opinion.

In my individual very personal “archery world”; my interest, enlightenment, and enjoyment of archery have been particularly facilitated by: Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Chuck Adams, Pete Shepley, Byron Ferguson, Rick Welch, Fred Asbell, Fred Eichler, Dale Karch, and of course Kegan.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

NASCAR has been **** since the restricter plates.
It's the equivalent of professional wrestling now.
Like most other sports these days it's all fan boys and hero worship.

The best thing about archery is:
I don't need a hero to worship, I can just go do it myself.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

GBUSA said:


> NASCAR has been **** since the restricter plates.
> It's the equivalent of professional wrestling now.
> Like most other sports these days it's all fan boys and hero worship.
> 
> ...


Well, I actually rather agree with both your points.

Some archery personalities have greatly enhanced my fun. Fun is entirely my archery goal. My goal is to have the maximum amount of fun from archery with the minimum amount of work and discipline. I appreciate anything or anyone that increases my enjoyment of archery. 

While I do indeed admire and appreciate some archery personalities, none are my heroes in the sense that Anthony Van Leeuwenhoek, Robert Koch, and Louis Pasteur are my heroes. I only worship God.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

By the way, some of my heroes were terribly flawed human beings. Those human flaws do not diminish them as heroes for me. They after all were human beings.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

grantmac said:


> I respect those guys putting it on the line without the creative editing: Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Ren Sarns, Matt Potter, Dewayne Martin, Mark Hodges and many more.
> 
> If I was present when someone shot a chained animal just to make a film I'd put the bullet in them myself and sleep fine.
> 
> -Grant


That post gives me a whole new perspective on the tough Canadian gun laws.How many other people up there think one to the head
solves problems.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

fallhunt said:


> Who????
> 
> Wow, I have never heard of any of those guys from reading archery books, archery magazine articles, watching archery videos, or from discussions among archers at archery ranges and such during a 49 year interest in archery.
> 
> Interesting, what were their important roles in archery (historic, pioneers, promotion, innovation, etc.)?


" I have never heard of any of these guys"

That my friend is the crux of the issue in some circles.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

fallhunt said:


> Who????
> 
> Wow, I have never heard of any of those guys from reading archery books, archery magazine articles, watching archery videos, or from discussions among archers at archery ranges and such during a 49 year interest in archery.
> 
> Interesting, what were their important roles in archery (historic, pioneers, promotion, innovation, etc.)?


You never heard of them because they don't produce films where they give themselves names like "The world's greatest archer". They just shoot.

You might call them pioneers though because there's probably more than a few records between them. "Records" meaning they're shooting verified scores that are higher than what has ever been shot before. The titles they've taken are real and verifiable.

I can't imagine that some of them haven't been mentioned in archery shops or articles in periodicals.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

MGF said:


> You never heard of them because they don't produce films where they give themselves names like "The world's greatest archer". They just shoot.
> 
> You might call them pioneers though because there's probably more than a few records between them. "Records" meaning they're shooting verified scores that are higher than what has ever been shot before. The titles they've taken are real and verifiable.
> 
> I can't imagine that some of them haven't been mentioned in archery shops or articles in periodicals.


I think you are exactly correct.

The guys with whom I shoot only shoot purely for fun (backyards, local outdoor ranges, local indoor ranges, local 3D shoots, and roving). The guys with whom I shoot and with whom I hunt have little concern or interest in records, verified scores, and titles that are real and verified. I am sure those things are great when one does have such an interest, but they just aren’t our cup of tea, so to speak.

We also aren’t likely to discuss or peruse any archery magazines that would cover such things. If they do, we likely skip over that information without notice. That stuff probably would not make very interesting videos, TV shows, or movies; so again it is not surprising that I am unaware of them.

I am sure they are all a bunch of serious dedicated great guys, but their contribution to archery is and likely will always remain of zero interest to me without any real appreciation. And why in the world should they care whether some guy like me appreciates what they do anyway? I am sure their accomplishments are well appreciated among them, so why care what anyone outside their circle thinks?

I am looking for fun, relaxation, and entertainment. I am not seeking work, drudgery, or serious achievement in this area of my life.

I would much rather watch films made by “The World’s Greatest Archer”. As long as they are fun, who cares about verification?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The fact that you watch someone shoot a chained animal for entertainment says all I need to know about your ethics.

I can't get through a Hill "hunting" film without wanting to vomit. Anyone who calls him a hero gets the same reaction.

Grant


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

grantmac said:


> ......................................If I was present when someone shot a chained animal just to make a film I'd put the bullet in them myself and sleep fine...........


Well, sorry about prompting urges to upchuck - LOL!

But, I too will sleep just fine despite your assessment of my “ethics”. Although, I might avoid any trips to Canada in the near future just to be on the safe side. I think I will give you a chance to calm down. By the way, are you a gun owner?

Perhaps you should lay off some of that intense serious competition and try to have a little fun with your archery???


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Come on guys.......I had to bury one of our herd of our Chihuahuas today and it was rough......we had 9, now we are down to 8 and the one that passed was totally blind but she could really talk.......She suffered big time last night and she would say sooooo perfectly "I Want".....and now she is over the rainbow bridge and can see again......bless her little soul.........anyway, life is short and we must live it with positive thoughts and have respect for others....That's the way I see it anyway!

Dave


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

hey YOU started it!:wink:


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

Sorry about your pooch Dave. I only have my one little red mini-dachshund, but he means the world to me. It would be unbearable loneliness without him. He is my little buddy.

I am willing to bury the tomahawk if MGF and Grant are willing (that is, as long as it’s not in my head).:smile:


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

So they had tryouts for who would do the shooting for the movie Robin Hood. 6 targets were set out on the lawn and the fancy target archers were out placing there tennis ball in front of the targets on the ground for the "point of aim" and they simply placed the tip of their arrow on the ball and the arrow would hit the gold. After they had placed their markers on the ground and came back to the line, Howard Hill ran up and slid to the line on his knees and quickly and without hesitation put an arrow into each bulls-eye in each target. The rest went home, they had their guy


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

The statement that Calvin Smock and Dave Wallace being better shots than Howard Hill is laughable, along with the very ignorant statement longbow shooters cant their bows to keep their arrows on the shelf. When people I am helping shooting are having trouble keeping the arrow on the shelf, I show them they are pinching the string and pulling the arrow off. Using a deep relaxed hook I show them as I draw the bow back I rotate it horizontally with the arrow towards the ground, not coming off the shelf.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

fallhunt said:


> I think you are exactly correct.
> 
> The guys with whom I shoot only shoot purely for fun (backyards, local outdoor ranges, local indoor ranges, local 3D shoots, and roving). The guys with whom I shoot and with whom I hunt have little concern or interest in records, verified scores, and titles that are real and verified. I am sure those things are great when one does have such an interest, but they just aren’t our cup of tea, so to speak.
> 
> ...


I don't compete of follow target archery very closely either. I shoot in my yard and hunt when I can. I know of some of these guys from reading the archery forums.

However, I am very serious about shooting well and I work hard at it. A few of them have been a great resource. For just a couple of examples, Dewayne Martine (who seems to be winning just about everything) is quick to answer a question and Jimmy Blackmon (not on the list) has made a bunch of great shooting and form related videos.

I look to the archers whom I know (verified) can really shoot.

While I like to watch a good movie, I don't pay much attention to "celebrities and I'm not easily swayed by media and marketing. Hill and Bear were just marketing as far as I'm concerned. They taught the modern crop of hunting industry marketers and TV hunters how to do it.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

fallhunt said:


> Sorry about your pooch Dave. I only have my one little red mini-dachshund, but he means the world to me. It would be unbearable loneliness without him. He is my little buddy.
> 
> I am willing to bury the tomahawk if MGF and Grant are willing (that is, as long as it’s not in my head).:smile:


I didn't realize there was a hatchet involved. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> The fact that you watch someone shoot a chained animal for entertainment says all I need to know about your ethics.
> 
> I can't get through a Hill "hunting" film without wanting to vomit. Anyone who calls him a hero gets the same reaction.
> 
> Grant


Almost everything in movies and film is staged or faked. It's nothing to get upset about...until they vote. LOL


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

yes we cant








seems to work


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

rembrandt said:


> Come on guys.......I had to bury one of our herd of our Chihuahuas today and it was rough......we had 9, now we are down to 8 and the one that passed was totally blind but she could really talk.......She suffered big time last night and she would say sooooo perfectly "I Want".....and now she is over the rainbow bridge and can see again......bless her little soul.........anyway, life is short and we must live it with positive thoughts and have respect for others....That's the way I see it anyway!
> 
> Dave


Sorry to hear about your dog


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MGF said:


> Almost everything in movies and film is staged or faked. It's nothing to get upset about...until they vote. LOL


I'm sure it wasn't fake for the animal.

-Grant


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Grantmac, seriously, does it really matter? Maybe it's not very sporting, what ever that's supposed to mean. Whether it be 1 arrow or a dozen it doesn't matter. The animal is going to die and it doesn't care if there is a chain involved or how many arrows it's got hanging out of it. What would be acceptable or better yet, what is an ethical hunt and what part of that makes it ok for the animal involved?


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

ranchoarcher said:


> Grantmac, seriously, does it really matter? Maybe it's not very sporting, what ever that's supposed to mean. Whether it be 1 arrow or a dozen it doesn't matter. The animal is going to die and it doesn't care if there is a chain involved or how many arrows it's got hanging out of it. What would be acceptable or better yet, what is an ethical hunt and what part of that makes it ok for the animal involved?


Chance and skill by and for both parties.
One is hunting, one is slaughter.
Canned hunts are for douchebags!


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

GBUSA said:


> Chance and skill by and for both parties.
> One is hunting, one is slaughter.
> Canned hunts are for douchebags!


 It's the chance and skill that determine whether it's ethical or not. Gonna get facetious here so don't take it personal. Where does the dividing line exist between what's chance versus rigged? If a person doesn't venture off into the wild unknown and just goes to their local woods where they know deer hang out thanks to their trail cams, that's a slaughter? What about the weapon involved. A rifle gives at least a 10 fold advantage over a bow. Is that slaughter? A compound over a self bow, about 5 times better and a slaughter? A compound over a modern recurve, about a 2 to 3 fold advantage. Slaughter-ish? What level of skill is skill enough? Is it a pie plate at 20, 30, 40, more? What skill should the animal have? Has anyone even asked them? Who should set the standards and who is anyone to pass judgment on what is or isn't.

Ambiguous terms like that are what leads to labeling people like HH what some have. In his time he did what was then considered acceptable. We don't see it as OK now and I'm sure if he lived today those movies and hunts would have been done a lot more appropriate for our softer skin times. Same goes for Fred Bear or anyone else from by-gone eras. A while ago I picked up some old school cartoons for the little ones. I was floored seeing a "warning" being played at the beginning saying how some of it might be "offensive". A cartoon? Things change over time and not always for the better but we have to keep in mind to judge by the standard that existed when done. That is, if we think we have any right to pass judgment in the first place.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I raise livestock for meat. When it's time, I kill the animal. Why does there have to be sport involved? I could shoot them with my bow if I wanted.

As far as I'm concerned, the "offence" committed on canned film hunts is that it's represented as something that it isn't. It's a lie. The animal is just meat.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

I bet if a good part of the population saw how you did it they'd be up in arms over it. Crazy nonsense and mostly because we've been so disconnected from reality many have forgotten the simple fact that we are animals to the extent that something has to die in order for us to live. Mothers these days would go bat **** crazy if you walked into a Mcdonalds and told their kids that the chicken nuggets were once a living bird that had it's neck twisted off.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I thought chicken nuggets were floor sweepins.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MGF said:


> I thought chicken nuggets were floor sweepins.


Hey man, don't tell me that.......Burger King just put their nuggets back on sale for $1.59 for 10....The Chihuahuas and I love them.......dipped in Buffalo sauce, they are not too bad......


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

You guys need to eat better  

Howard Hill was a great promoter of archery and showman and yes today the things they did would be looked down upon by most 

But in their time it was except able 

To be an archer today and not recognize the accomplishments of the above mentioned guys Martin ,Demmer , Rogers , Eagleton , Smock, Potter etc is folly because they are truly setting the bar and giving us all something to aspire to


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

JParanee said:


> You guys need to eat better
> 
> Howard Hill was a great promoter of archery and showman and yes today the things they did would be looked down upon by most
> 
> ...


I wonder what would happen if through a twist of fate one of the above archers became a nationally prominent figure. Appeared in movies , did the talk shows and had a line of bows everybody wanted to buy. How long would it take for all the naysayers to rise up and start talking about every match he ever lost and how some of his movie
shots were faked. Not to mention also that he was shooting a new super duper Border bow- the HexB52 - not available to the public- that would turn any hacker into a champion.The guy would be totally villified by some people.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

You can’t please all the people all the time .... that’s why we have the 2 Party system .... Hunters, and Target shooters ... :wink:

Some Cant , some Cant not ...


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

In regard to the original question, I find a vertical bow to be more consistent for me. 

However, for hunting situations and distances, especially from a seated position, canting the bow works too. As long as the bending is from the waist, it's all the same for me.



After reading through the entire thread, I do have a couple questions though.



grantmac said:


> People shouldn't need "inspiration" to take up a bow, it should be something which burns in them like a need.
> 
> -Grant


If no inspiration was needed, how did you know the bow and arrow even existed?



As to the whole *"ethical hunting"* thing. 

True hunting, sustenance hunting, has no *"ethics."* You either find a way (any way) to kill something and eat it or you die yourself. Wolves and starving men don't worry about fairness and ethics. If you have other means of getting food, it's not sustenance hunting, it's sport. That's where the concepts of ethics, or fairness come in. At the end of the day, what is truly "ethical" about one animal having a weapon and another animal not, or killing anything for recreation?

It's all mind candy to make us feel better about how we choose to recreate.

KPC


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

JParanee said:


> You guys need to eat better  ....................To be an archer today and not recognize the accomplishments of the above mentioned guys Martin ,Demmer , Rogers , Eagleton , Smock, Potter etc is folly because they are truly setting the bar and giving us all something to aspire to


HEY!!!! I resemble that remark – LOL.

But seriously, I have no problem with those who “WANT” the bar raised. More power to them and those they appreciate and admire because they assist their pursuit of the bar rising. It is great that primitive bows, longbows, recurves, compound bows, and crossbows allow archers to enjoy archery in various ways. One can enjoy primitive archery, casual backyard archery, competition archery, other aspects archery, or various combinations.

The bar is already plenty high for me. I can’t even see the bar as it is now, but that is okay for me. I do not need or even want the bar raised. Why should it be important that I be forced or even pressured to want this? 

I just want to have fun in my backyard (vast majority of my shooting) and to have fun meandering through the beautiful fall woods a couple of times each season while “pretend hunting” (almost zero pre-hunt scouting or preparation). I just want to have fun with my bow – period. Am I not an archer because I do not pursue archery in the manner that someone else “WANTS” to be part of their archery experience? 

Why does anyone get the privilege of defining for anyone else what it is to be an archer? I will answer my own question. Some just assign that authority to themselves. I must obey too many frivolous intrusive rules, regulations, and laws from our out of control oppressive government. I am not kneeling to other archers who have decided based on their own criteria that they somehow know what is “correct” for other archers.

Anyone raising the bar past hitting a paper plate at 30 yards is unnecessarily excessively extending accuracy abilities for my needs. No offense intended, but I actually think that it would be complete folly for me (specifically for me!!!) to expend any of my remaining time or effort monitoring archery bar raising efforts. I would rather be in my backyard trying to keep all my arrows on a paper plate at 10 yards. Now that’s fun and interesting!!! :smile:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Fall hunt and p508 

I understand where you are coming from 

I was weaned on Howard Hill and the like and I have much admiration for them 

But even as a kid growing up in a hunting family I knew some of the scenes where staged but that is okay 

At the time of these Films and do to who Howard was hanging out with Eryl Flynn and the likes of Zane Grey of course these wher over dramatized Hollywood shorts 

All Films of the day where 

Yes growing up on a farm and reading these great tales we all took shots that where not responsible ..... Hell that was how ya did it 

It was a different time and priority one was a bit simpler .... We didn't know better 

They fueled my dreams along with Robert Ruark , Hemingway , Elgin Gates etc 

I am thankful to them for that 

Roll time forward 

I have always been a recurve shooter 

Never came from compounds 

I was and am a hunter and backwoods shooter 

Up until I attended my first 3 D shoot a little over 5 years ago 

I thought I was a good bow hunter 

Heck I had killed more deer than I could remember 

All these target guys in my mind were not hunters 

Well my first year or so of shooting I ended up on a course with my still to this day friend Paul Vogel 

Paul had just won the worlds I think 

Well I never in my life saw a guy shoot with such consistance 

It blew me away 

It wetted my appetite of what could be done with a bare bow 

Now wind forward a few more years and I have seen Demmer ,Rogers , Smock , Martin and many others shoot like I did not think possible 

They have gained my respect and admiration 

If I can apply anything that I have seen these elite shooters do in the field I will be all the better for it 

Yes I still like Howard and Fred but I know marketing and show biz .......and I know lights out shooting 

I have no aspirations to be a competitive shooter but I do want to be a better bowman and these guys are just that ......better bowman and I also really like them


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

p508 

They are promonant shooters and if you follow the world of bare bow they are quite famous 

I know the highest profile shooters in the world .... From Reo Wilde and Jake Kaminski to the above bare bow shooters and they are all gentleman that if you ever see them shoot in person will make you scratch your head


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Fall hunt and p508
> 
> I understand where you are coming from
> 
> ...


Intriguing narration! I enjoyed the very interesting history, insights, and perspectives. I might need to ponder this information a bit more. It is possible that I might be foolishly (folly?) denying myself a worthwhile archery experience due to my ignorance along with a bit of obstinacy. 

I am already in my 60s and cannot hit the side of a barn at ten yards with a bare bow plus some partial blindness in my dominant eye along with other vision problems. It seems that you might be older. I too would have zero thoughts of dramatically improving my own shooting. But perhaps bare bow competition is worth a “look see” after all. If I enjoy watching those guys even half as much as watching trick shooting by Bryon Ferguson, then I might find that I indeed do want to follow competitive bare bow archery events.

Thanks again!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

p508 said:


> I wonder what would happen if through a twist of fate one of the above archers became a nationally prominent figure. Appeared in movies , did the talk shows and had a line of bows everybody wanted to buy. How long would it take for all the naysayers to rise up and start talking about every match he ever lost and how some of his movie
> shots were faked. Not to mention also that he was shooting a new super duper Border bow- the HexB52 - not available to the public- that would turn any hacker into a champion.The guy would be totally villified by some people.


If you want to fund my publicity campaign, I'll volunteer 

I'm going to need a salary too. Otherwise, work will get in the way.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

fallhunt said:


> Intriguing narration! I enjoyed the very interesting history, insights, and perspectives. I might need to ponder this information a bit more. It is possible that I might be foolishly (folly?) denying myself a worthwhile archery experience due to my ignorance along with a bit of obstinacy.
> 
> I am already in my 60s and cannot hit the side of a barn at ten yards with a bare bow plus some partial blindness in my dominant eye along with other vision problems. It seems that you might be older. I too would have zero thoughts of dramatically improving my own shooting. But perhaps bare bow competition is worth a “look see” after all. If I enjoy watching those guys even half as much as watching trick shooting by Bryon Ferguson, then I might find that I indeed do want to follow competitive bare bow archery events.
> 
> Thanks again!


Happy I could offer something up 

I'm 47 .....just old for my years  

Archery is many things to many people....that is it's wonderful gift

Thos is how I shoot my bow these days ....


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

fallhunt said:


> Intriguing narration! I enjoyed the very interesting history, insights, and perspectives. I might need to ponder this information a bit more. It is possible that I might be foolishly (folly?) denying myself a worthwhile archery experience due to my ignorance along with a bit of obstinacy.
> 
> I am already in my 60s and cannot hit the side of a barn at ten yards with a bare bow plus some partial blindness in my dominant eye along with other vision problems. It seems that you might be older. I too would have zero thoughts of dramatically improving my own shooting. But perhaps bare bow competition is worth a “look see” after all. If I enjoy watching those guys even half as much as watching trick shooting by Bryon Ferguson, then I might find that I indeed do want to follow competitive bare bow archery events.
> 
> Thanks again!


I am not a top shooter, but I would definitely suggest seeking them out, and competitions in general. Most ever I have been lucky enough to shoot with has been both encouraging and helpful, but also fun to hang with. Some people may take thhe competition too seriously, but for most, while they might care about the competition aspect, they realize that if they're not having a good time with others, they're blowing it and missing the point.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't have anything against Howard Hill or Fred Bear. I just see don't see them as the "super archers" that some people seem to think they are. They aren't who I'm going to watch or read if I'm looking for ways to improve my shooting or hunting.

I'd go to somebody like Jimmy Blackmon...he does some coaching, he can really shoot and he kills a ton of deer. In fact, I had a weekend scheduled with him and I had to cancel. Traveling and spending money just never seems to work for me.

He shoots exactly like what John Schulz said just will not work for hunting...but he really stacks them up anyway. LOL


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I don't have anything against Howard Hill or Fred Bear. I just see don't see them as the "super archers" that some people seem to think they are. They aren't who I'm going to watch or read if I'm looking for ways to improve my shooting or hunting.
> 
> I'd go to somebody like Jimmy Blackmon...he does some coaching, he can really shoot and he kills a ton of deer. In fact, I had a weekend scheduled with him and I had to cancel. Traveling and spending money just never seems to work for me.
> 
> He shoots exactly like what John Schulz said just will not work for hunting...but he really stacks them up anyway. LOL


Yes


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

See who people remember in 25 years.Enough handringing already jeez.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JParanee said:


> Happy I could offer something up
> 
> I'm 47 .....just old for my years
> 
> ...


I hope you miss that rock wall.....


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

4nolz said:


> See who people remember in 25 years.Enough handringing already jeez.


We know who most people remember. They remember the media celebrities. But, it's not necessarily based on any real point of merit. It's show business, drama etc. It's all designed to push just the right buttons of a target audience and it works often enough.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Some people can hit what they aim at, others cant.

-Grant


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> I hope you miss that rock wall.....


My target is sitting on the rock wall .)


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

You must remember a target shooter will always outscore a Hunter in competition .... but a Hunter will shoot a Target shooter over a matter of food when the SHTF (survival ethics) ... never forget that...


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

MGF said:


> We know who most people remember. They remember the media celebrities. But, it's not necessarily based on any real point of merit. It's show business, drama etc. It's all designed to push just the right buttons of a target audience and it works often enough.


Is that really problematic???? If so, why? Who is hurt by people’s enjoyment of the media celebrities? It seems that the media celebrities are providing a useful role by encouraging excitement for archery and supplying a demand for entertainment. What is the down side?

I was once told (not sure I agree) that professional baseball players, football players, and such were truly worth their salaries due to the vast number of people for whom they essentially serviced by providing them enjoyment.

It seems that it might be a similar circumstance with the archery media celebrities. They will be remembered due to the huge number of people who have had their enjoyment of archery enhanced by the media celebrities’ performances. ???


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

JParanee said:


> My target is sitting on the rock wall .)


Yeah, but did you hit it? The target that is and not the wall.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Target shooting is the scourge of the sport, they should have stuck to lawn shooting. Field Shooting was started by bowhunters to practice for bowhunting, then the target archers came along and decided since they are the keepers of accuracy, they will take it over. Once there were hundreds of Field Ranges across the USA, now you would be hard pressed to find one... thank you target archery. Then the bowhunters came up with 3D shoots to practice for bowhunting.. guess what? 3D shooting is the new target archery... yay! They are slowly grinding away at that one too. The most successful and well attended clubs around here are bowhunter based clubs... and they are more fun.


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## erotomaniac1928 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hank said:


> Target shooting is the scourge of the sport, they should have stuck to lawn shooting. Field Shooting was started by bowhunters to practice for bowhunting, then the target archers came along and decided since they are the keepers of accuracy, they will take it over. Once there were hundreds of Field Ranges across the USA, now you would be hard pressed to find one... thank you target archery. Then the bowhunters came up with 3D shoots to practice for bowhunting.. guess what? 3D shooting is the new target archery... yay! They are slowly grinding away at that one too. The most successful and well attended clubs around here are bowhunter based clubs... and they are more fun.


Please, tell us how you really feel. But in all seriousness, generalizations are never good. Bow hunters and target shoots are all equally dedicated archers.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

erotomaniac1928 said:


> Please, tell us how you really feel. But in all seriousness, generalizations are never good. Bow hunters and target shoots are all equally dedicated archers.


Not all, but many, probably more than half, of the really good target archers I know hunt with the same bows they use to shoot targets.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> If you want to fund my publicity campaign, I'll volunteer
> 
> I'm going to need a salary too. Otherwise, work will get in the way.


No problem- I have a hat I can pass around for expenses and we can hitchhike to LA to keep the costs down- forget the salary-
that's what I get as your manager when you become rich and famous-


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Who the heck hijacked my thread?.......LOL


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Happy I could offer something up
> 
> I'm 47 .....just old for my years
> 
> ...


hey Joe, is that a kwikee quiver that has leather wrapped around it? thats pretty bad ass, if so how did you do that?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Hank said:


> Once there were hundreds of Field Ranges across the USA, now you would be hard pressed to find one... thank you target archery.


Tom,

You need to get out more. There are presently over a thousand NFAA certified field ranges in this country. On any given weekend there is at least one field shoot within and hour or two of where I live. I know there are several near where you live in NE Iowa too. Your angst is misplaced.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Tom,
> 
> You need to get out more. There are presently over a thousand NFAA certified field ranges in this country. On any given weekend there is at least one field shoot within and hour or two of where I live. I know there are several near where you live in NE Iowa too. Your angst is misplaced.


Hunters always complain about target archers when they lose.

When a target archer loses, they look at what would make them better.

Grant


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Hunters always complain about target archers when they lose.
> 
> When a target archer loses, they look at what would make them better.
> 
> Grant


most of the traditional shoots i go too , the hunters really dont care about winning or losing, its about having a good time with good people and im talking about the texas recurve state championships, east texas longbow/recurve titles and the list goes on....

the target/fita competitions i have been too it was the total opposite


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Hunters always complain about target archers when they lose.
> 
> When a target archer loses, they look at what would make them better.
> 
> Grant


That's the kind of comment that creates the us versus them mentality that does nobody any good.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Hunters always complain about target archers when they lose.
> 
> When a target archer loses, *they look at what would make them better*.
> 
> Grant


Which usually requires draw weight reduction or arrow weight reductions to the point that their equipment wouldn't qualify them for state minimums to legally hunt w/. Huge difference in setting up to shoot paper or foam several times a day, than setting up to kill big game at 30yrds!

What you describe is why I got away from the target archer scene. I don't have anything against it and in time will be more involved into target archery but IMO, shooting ''real'' hunting weight bows in competition is a lot different than shooting bows w/ draw weight's less than 40lbs.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> hey Joe, is that a kwikee quiver that has leather wrapped around it? thats pretty bad ass, if so how did you do that?


Yes 

It's a 4 arrow Kwikee that Scott Teaschner covered in so,e Cape Buffalo leather from a bull I shot in Tanzania


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JParanee said:


> Yes
> 
> It's a 4 arrow Kwikee that Scott Teaschner covered in so,e Cape Buffalo leather from a bull I shot in Tanzania


And I'm gonna ask ya another question.....Is that a shield behind the arrows and is it yours?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> And I'm gonna ask ya another question.....Is that a shield behind the arrows and is it yours?


Yes of course it is

You mean you don't have one


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

overbo said:


> Which usually requires draw weight reduction or arrow weight reductions to the point that their equipment wouldn't qualify them for state minimums to legally hunt w/. Huge difference in setting up to shoot paper or foam several times a day, than setting up to kill big game at 30yrds!
> 
> What you describe is why I got away from the target archer scene. I don't have anything against it and in time will be more involved into target archery but IMO, shooting ''real'' hunting weight bows in competition is a lot different than shooting bows w/ draw weight's less than 40lbs.


There is no magic draw weight or KE which will make-up for a poor shot on game. Watching "hunters" miss or maim rubber deer all weekend long which aren't moving and placed broadside on at 25yds gives me a pretty good idea of the average skill level.

My competition bows make state legal weights for most states in the US and I could easily shoot over for the rest if I didn't use the same one for Field/Target. The guys who are really good like John Demmer, Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Mark Hodges and Matt Potter are frequently competing with bows that are legal for big-game in their states. I'm nothing compared with those guys but I still managed to put a pretty big lead on the local hunting crowd.

The best competitors I know also hunt and funny enough they aren't the ones talking about poor hits and long tracking jobs. They are usually showing the pictures of dead animals and talking about meat in the freezer.

-Grant


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

grantmac said:


> There is no magic draw weight or KE which will make-up for a poor shot on game. Watching "hunters" miss or maim rubber deer all weekend long which aren't moving and placed broadside on at 25yds gives me a pretty good idea of the average skill level.
> 
> My competition bows make state legal weights for most states in the US and I could easily shoot over for the rest if I didn't use the same one for Field/Target. The guys who are really good like John Demmer, Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Mark Hodges and Matt Potter are frequently competing with bows that are legal for big-game in their states. I'm nothing compared with those guys but I still managed to put a pretty big lead on the local hunting crowd.
> 
> ...


Funny it's the other way around here in Texas, you have a pretty narrow mind on "hunters" who shoot traditional equipment


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

JParanee said:


> Yes of course it is
> 
> You mean you don't have one


I really thought I'd have one by now. Looks like its had some use. Tell us more.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

grantmac said:


> There is no magic draw weight or KE which will make-up for a poor shot on game. Watching "hunters" miss or maim rubber deer all weekend long which aren't moving and placed broadside on at 25yds gives me a pretty good idea of the average skill level.
> 
> My competition bows make state legal weights for most states in the US and I could easily shoot over for the rest if I didn't use the same one for Field/Target. The guys who are really good like John Demmer, Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Mark Hodges and Matt Potter are frequently competing with bows that are legal for big-game in their states. I'm nothing compared with those guys but I still managed to put a pretty big lead on the local hunting crowd.
> 
> ...


 I've been there and have competed w/ many archers on a local level that have set ups for 3d or indoor shooting only. They usually range in the 30lbs to 40lbs range. IMO, not the best choice of draw weight for shooting big game past 25yrds. Bow weight may not make a poor shot more lethal(which is quite arguable) but it can mean the difference between a passthru and poor penetration on a all






hits at extended ranges.

Example, I killed this bull at 30yrds while he trotted thru the shooting lane.65lbs bow! arrow was poking out the other side. Been on enough arrow hit elk to know that, a traditional bow w/ a less than 40lbs would have more than likely left you a very lengthy blood trail and quite possibly no recovery, in this situation. 

This is why I shoot bows of this weight and work year round on it to do so. Can I beat or even stay pace w/ those local target weight shooting archers during a meet? Heck no, the last shoot I went to, I made the final cut but got it handed to me by two gentlemen shooting bows half my draw weight.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

redribbon said:


> I really thought I'd have one by now. Looks like its had some use. Tell us more.


Just a prop shield from the movie 300 

Got a nice Bronze Spartan Helmet also


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JParanee said:


> Just a prop shield from the movie 300
> 
> Got a nice Bronze Spartan Helmet also


Enjoyed that movie.....how did you come across these items?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

overbo said:


> I've been there and have competed w/ many archers on a local level that have set ups for 3d or indoor shooting only. They usually range in the 30lbs to 40lbs range. IMO, not the best choice of draw weight for shooting big game past 25yrds. Bow weight may not make a poor shot more lethal(which is quite arguable) but it can mean the difference between a passthru and poor penetration on a all
> View attachment 2323081
> hits at extended ranges.
> 
> ...


Nice bull 

If I may ask what bow were you shooting ? 

I come from heavier bows also 

The last few years I have found bows that will out perform my heavier bows of yesterday at lower weights 

I'm certainly not weaker but with limb technology etc 

Last year I hunted with a 52 pound bow that had as much energy as my 60 plus pound bows of a few years ago


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> Enjoyed that movie.....how did you come across these items?


Rem I'm a big arms and armor collector 

Everything from Uzis to things like Samurai armor , Swords, knives , etc 

I found a very good Bronze helmet years ago and someone gave me the matching shield , spear 

Here is the Helmet 



You can see the Samurai Armor in this pic


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

JParanee said:


> Nice bull
> 
> *If I may ask what bow were you shooting ? *I come from heavier bows also
> 
> ...


Habu Vyperkahn,

I know there are bowyers that build low brace height radical design(IMO) bows. I've tried a few of them but I shoot far better w/ designs of modest qualities. I also don't feel the small gains in speed(less than 10% from my findings) is worth the loss of shooting consistency. I generally stay away from bows w/ a design brace less that 8'' or so. That's just what works for me.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Habu makes a nice bow


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JParanee said:


> Rem I'm a big arms and armor collector
> 
> Everything from Uzis to things like Samurai armor , Swords, knives , etc
> 
> ...


Love that stuff JParanee......I've always enjoyed the Iliad and the Odyssey especially Roman tactics under Caesar......read his 
Commentaris in Latin.....I made a Greek helmet out of a gourd and it looked pretty good.....sold it! love your game room.....I wish I had all the stuff animals I once had......long story


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks Rem


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## Pixel (Sep 19, 2019)

I don't. I was taught to keep my bow straight up and down


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## HawkeyeII (Sep 19, 2019)

Canting the bow allows instinctive archer an open sight picture. At least for me it does.


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## dh8809 (Sep 20, 2019)

i always cant my bow


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## dan ho (Oct 13, 2018)

Coming from a compound where i shot from a flipper rest I find shooting a recurve with a 10-15 degree cant helps me a lot with visibility/depth perception and most importantly in keeping the arrow on the shelf


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## Easton70 (Jun 3, 2012)

You know I cant my bow...tried to straighten it up and found I’m better at it cantting my bow ..wasted a month trying to conform. I’m like F that I just shot a nice bear with my longbow ..it’s traditional archery...conforming is for compounds...I’m done with that 😂


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## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Always. To hold it straight up feels stiff and awkward.


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## Easton70 (Jun 3, 2012)

Agree 100%


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## triumph (Dec 24, 2009)

Upright feels a bit stiff for me. Also canting allows for a better sight window for me.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Canting seems to make sense if you use your knuckles as an arrow rest but with bows cut to center or at least with a shelf doesn't canting add another vector to the arrow path and make accuracy more of a challenge?


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## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

woof156 said:


> Canting seems to make sense if you use your knuckles as an arrow rest but with bows cut to center or at least with a shelf doesn't canting add another vector to the arrow path and make accuracy more of a challenge?


The question has been answered time and time again. Many folks find a cant more comfortable, thus more accurate.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

I do not rotate the wrist from it's natural position which results in the bow being canted. Canting provides a better field of vision and is completely natural. That's shooting a recurve barebow. When I shoot FITA bow is held vertical, it has to be to get use the sight and align the string blur. FITA bow is probably not exactly 90 degrees.


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## kayak (Jun 20, 2019)

Canting helps put the arrow under your eye, which aids accuracy when shooting gap/instinctive/split vision.. I’ve noticed that when holding a bow vertical, I tilt my head to get the same perspective.


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## sixlomaz (Sep 29, 2019)

Always when I hunt. At the range I go vertical.


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## wodje96 (Sep 27, 2019)

Almost always a little, I'm better if a start off straight and then cant as I settle in. It ends up not being canted very much, just enough to give me the right sight picture and get the arrow under my eye.


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## Kronoloctipus22 (Jun 22, 2019)

I recently started canting mine a little. Helped me be more consistent.


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## Dalion (Oct 30, 2004)

When I shot longbows (ALB), which had a shelf but little more, you had to cant the bow to see anything. But you had to cant your head and string hand at the same angle or you would be torquing something. When I started to shoot ILF bows and rework my form to use correct body mechanics, I couldn’t cant the bow without torquing something. Now that I am settling into using proper form I able to cant the bow, when I have to, without torquing anything. I only cant the bow when I am hunting and the shot does not allow for the bow to be held in the proper upright manner. The grips on most modern recurves don’t feel natural to be held canted without using a torque inducing grip. If I ever start shooting longbows regularly again I am sure I will cant them.


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