# FOC and Cedar Arrows



## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

I have been pouring over the 3 rivers arrow chart, attempting to come up with a combination for my draw weight and arrow length and desired FOC. The problem I'm finding is, as you increase point weight, you need to increase spine to match your draw weight and arrow length, which in turn ends up reducing FOC back to where it was at the last point weight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems if you want to bump up FOC, the only way is to choose a spine that is under what the chart indicates... and I don't know what that means for performance. 

Thanks for reading. Suggestions? 

WW


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## newbwithabow (Oct 18, 2009)

Forgive me for my ignorance but what's FOC?

Thank you


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## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

Forward of Center. Since the tip is heavier than the rest of the arrow, the point of balance is closer to the tip. The idea behind increasing FOC is that it allows the fletching to correct the flight a little easier and increases penetration by reducing the amount of arrow that flexes on impact. It doesn't allow me to post links yet, but you can find a better explanation at archeryreport dot com


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## newbwithabow (Oct 18, 2009)

Wyrmwood said:


> Forward of Center. Since the tip is heavier than the rest of the arrow, the point of balance is closer to the tip. The idea behind increasing FOC is that it allows the fletching to correct the flight a little easier and increases penetration by reducing the amount of arrow that flexes on impact. It doesn't allow me to post links yet, but you can find a better explanation at archeryreport dot com


Thanks Wyrmwood.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Trouble with trying to control FOC with wooden arrows is that the material can vary in weight. You can have 60-64 spined cedar that is heavier than 70-74 and the other way around. 

The folks I know who try to achieve high FOC in wood arrows are getting very stiff arrows and either footing the shafts with hardwoods or inserting metal (nails, rods, etc) into the front end. Usually ends up with decent FOC but a pretty heavy arrow.

If you are shooting for a certain FOC and arrow weight with wood you may have a lot of work cut out. You could try calling the suppliers to see if they will help you get a certain weight. They may be able to find raw shafts of a certain weight that will tune correctly and allow you to maintain a good FOC without the arrow becoming excessively heavy. The downside is that you could get a dozen worked out just the way you like them and the next time you order shafts they might not have the same weight raw shafts in the spine you need. Just the nature of the beast when dealing with natural arrow materials.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

*foc AND wood arrows*

Anyone who is worrying about FOC in a wood arrow is way overthinking this in my opinion :teeth:.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

You need to buy shafts that are weight matched within 10 grains to have any chance at FOC accuracy. Spine matching and weight matching are not one and the same things. 

The way to go is pick weight matched shafts that would tune in your bow with a heavy point.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

There are many wood shaft suppliers that will weight match. I do worry and use FOC in all of my wood arrows I build for myself and customers. All you have to do is make sure you ask for your correct spine and weight matching within 5 to 10 grains +/-. FOC is just as important to wood arrows as it is to aluminum or carbon shafts....


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Get tapered shafts and shoot the broadhead you want.Foc will take care of itself.It simply is not enough gain in messing with wood arrows to get a certain FOC to make it worthwhile.10% FOC or 30% FOC makes no difference on a good hit and seldom would on a bad one.Straight flying arrows with sharp broadheads is all you need.jmho


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

WW

Single tapered shafts are the easiest answer…if you are looking for increased FOC at a known spine weight. 

That said, I have been shooting wooden arrows for a relatively long time and have never purchased any with a “desired FOC” in mind. Also, I typically will not push the limits of my equipment beyond the “forgiving” stage, and keep arrows of more than one spine weight on hand…freely changing point weight (balance point) has yet to be an issue. 

On the other hand, if you are interested in flight shooting and are trying to decrease FOC…forget my first answer…and just buy more arrows. Enjoy, Rick.


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## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies all; very helpful

So, let me see if I've got this straight, 

1. you can add weight (footing, weights or heavy tip) which will increase FOC but will decrease spine (may not "solve" the need for increasing spine issue?)

2. you can find and match the weight of the arrow with a higher spine, which will in turn increase FOC (since the actual arrow weight is lower for a given higher spine)

3. you can use a tapered shaft, so the arrow by design has a higher FOC. 

I think 2 or 3 seem like the best options, and perhaps 3 is the easiest? Are there other issues with tapered shafts (do they break easier, etc?)

I've been shooting aluminum for two years now and knew I wanted to change this year. I shot over 5000 arrows last season practicing and am down to a half dozen decent arrows for hunting. I've also somehow managed to increase my draw length... (or didn't determine it correctly in the first place) The only thing pulling me towards carbon was the ease of increasing FOC (with a high spine, light weight shaft and heavy tip). I ordered a few test kits, so am hopeful I'll be able to find the correct spine/ weight combination for cedar arrows with my bow. I'm hoping once I do that, if I still think a higher FOC is important, then either find lighter arrows or tapered shafts.

Again, thanks all for the very helpful replies.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Wyrmwood said:


> Thanks for all the replies all; very helpful
> 
> So, let me see if I've got this straight,
> 
> ...


While I don't have any argument against FOC per se and though I'm not anywhere near to be considered any kind of expert with wood arrows, I have spent thousands of minutes probably playing with footings, sanding, self nocks with plastic inserts, dipping, polishing, and a host of other exercises with wood, and it is this fussing around with wood that endears me to the efforts.

I match my arrows by shooting them. I'd do this long before I'd get into tapering or sanding material to get them to do the right thing... that would be me anyway... and if you really want to get into wood, then tapering and such are definitely available to you and lots of fun. 

Much Aloha.. :beer:


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

Download Stu Milers dynamic spine calculator and play with it! Remeber: garbage in=garbage out, so make sure you fill in the proper values! 

Stu is most of the time dead on!

http://heilakka.com/stumiller/


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## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

Thanks FD! Just from entering my current setup I can see I'm already too low on my point weight. This will be very handy!


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah, Stu Miller is a great help. It is important that you fill in the proper values. Especially the center-cut option (plus or minus) is very important.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Guys, FOC applies to ALL shafts, not just wood and it is very important to correct arrow flight.


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

That's right. For me FOC is a result of tuning. For my wooden arrows, which are bareshafted perfectly till 35 yards, the FOC became 9%.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

If you put a metal point on the front end of an arrow thats outweighs fletchings/ nock, you have accomplished an FOC of some degree. And it's a good thing. What you have to decide is how much do you need. Is there a perfect FOC?


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## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

I plugged in some numbers last night, trying out different setups and was intrigued to find that the quest for high FOC has a downside; reduced speed (in FPS). Additionally, it does not appear to decrease proportionally. The resulting energy was highest at the lowest spine arrow and tip weight (and FOC) setup and energy was the lowest at the highest spine/ weight/ FOC, due to the decreasing speed for a heavier arrow. While this may be like a muzzle loader and increased point weight may be desirable even if the raw energy appears to go down, it is certainly something to consider. Higher speed will result in a flatter shooting arrow and thus more consistent targeting. I am looking forward to the test kits and seeing how the empirical data lines up with the spread sheets. I am sure there will be more surprises.


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## SlowBowInMO (Dec 4, 2003)

I like heavy arrows in general. I fooled around with enough carbons (and still shoot them some) to be able to see the advantages of a well tuned arrow with high FOC. So I started messing with woodies and I've been pleasantly surprised, they actually take to heavy points well. It doesn't require as much of a spine jump as you might think either...often 10-15 pounds extra spine will allow you to shoot 250 grains or more up front.

The difficulty has been getting that much weight on the front of the wooden arrow. Now with the Internal Point Jig and Woody Weights available it is much easier to accomplish.

My heaviest bow uses 70-75 DF shafts, with 250 grains up front I'm happily launching 730 grain arrows downrange with authority. It used to take a hardwood shaft to accomplish that. I like it as it enables me to greatly boost my overall arrow weight, the high FOC is just a side benefit.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Wyrmwood said:


> Higher speed will result in a flatter shooting arrow and thus more consistent targeting.


That points to one of the fallacies of following EFOC blindly, or at least a point not often considered. If the goal being to have less tail deflection on impact, hence better penetration, isn't there a point where an arrow hitting more horizontally will be more efficient, penetration-wise, than an arrow dropping into the target from a more vertical path (at an extreme of FOC)? That's even before addressing your more consistent targeting issue. It's all in the balance of trade-offs to what you want.


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

Foc is the last thing I worrie about. I take care they are straight, have all the same weight and are spined properly for my set-up and my way of shooting. 
Foc is a side-result of my tuning; not a goal.


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## Wyrmwood (May 8, 2010)

After doing some testing, I've learned a few things... 

Wooden arrows are easier to break than aluminum 
just about any spine works well with the right tip
actual speeds are lower than calculated ones
speed differentials are lower than calculated
So, I still haven't decided, but I'm leaning on 70-75/125 tip or 80+/160 tip. The lighter arrows are traveling on average 195 fps, and the heavier ones closer to 175 fps. However, that means the heavier arrows are actually higher energy than the lower ones (contrary to what I expected after playing with the calculator) but I just _like_ how the 70-75/125 feels and flies, but I like the way all of the wooden arrows fly. I will do much more testing, but I need to be careful when using the chrony - I get kind of carried away looking at everything, and being nervous about shooting the chrony and sometimes over shoot the target, which is very hard on these arrows. I think I can improve on that with a better position for the chrony.

You know, I don't know if I'm imagining things, but it seems I get a pass through (through my dead stop into the back board) more often with these wooden arrows than I did with my aluminum... ???


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Wyrmwood said:


> After doing some testing, I've learned a few things...
> 
> Wooden arrows are easier to break than aluminum
> just about any spine works well with the right tip
> ...


A heavy slow arrow will often, if not always, have more energy at the target than a faster lighter one. The heavier arrow, and you don't say how much your arrows weigh so this is speculation, will almost ALWAYS have more momentum at anywhere along the flight path.

Aloha... :beer:


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