# Hoyt's bamboo core limbs



## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

I can't wait to get my hands on these limbs. I was talking to Doug Denton (Hoyt's head recurve engineer) last week and he was really excited about them. He said that they are simply the smoothest, fastest limbs he has ever built. An interesting fact he told me-- the bamboo core limbs are about 2 fps faster than the foam core version. Usually the foam core variant has the edge in speed


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Sounds more like a new marketing spin selling more limbs.

BTW,
https://www.facebook.com/BorderArchery/posts/2663454160346655


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, bamboo core limbs are nothing new. O.L. Adcock was putting bamboo cores in his patented ACS longbow limbs decades ago, and before that Howard Hill shot Bamboo longbows. Not many people knew Brady's Mathews TR-7 limbs back in the '06-08 era were bamboo core. 

It's not a marketing spin in this case (how often do I say that about a Hoyt product? LOL). The benefits of bamboo are significant. Glad to see them get on board.


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## Atascaderobow (Nov 4, 2014)

Captain Kirk said:


> Sounds more like a new marketing spin selling more limbs.


Don't know if it is a marketing spin or not, what I do know is Bamboo is an extremely resilent material. Since I build custom Bamboo fly rods I will use them as an example: If made out of the correct Bamboo with strong power fibers (Tonkin Cane for fly rods) and heat treated correctly they will last forever. If heat treated correctly Bamoo will not take a set. That is to say after repeated flexing the bamboo will return to the shape it was heat treated in. The long power fibers will not break easily compared to wood which typically has shorter grain structures. I have fished rods well over 100 years old that show no signs of degradation to the Bamboo. FYI: The folks in the referenced Facebook post need to know that Bamboo is not a wood, it is a grass. 

If I didn't have a new set of Quattros I would jump all over Bamboo core limbs. Knowing what I do about Bamboo, if I ever get off my butt and build a recurve it will have Bamboo backed limbs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jaredjms said:


> I can't wait to get my hands on these limbs. I was talking to Doug Denton (Hoyt's head recurve engineer) last week and he was really excited about them. He said that they are simply the smoothest, fastest limbs he has ever built. An interesting fact he told me-- the bamboo core limbs are about 2 fps faster than the foam core version. Usually the foam core variant has the edge in speed


That doesn't surprise me. My SKY TR-7 limbs were 2# lighter than my old SKY Jack maple core limbs, and they were still faster, and smoother at the clicker.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jaredjms said:


> An interesting fact he told me-- the bamboo core limbs are about 2 fps faster than the foam core version.


sounds reminiscent of the Hoyt Stealth shots that gave you 1 fps more speed. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Atascaderobow said:


> Don't know if it is a marketing spin or not, what I do know is Bamboo is an extremely resilent material. Since I build custom Bamboo fly rods I will use them as an example: If made out of the correct Bamboo with strong power fibers (Tonkin Cane for fly rods) and heat treated correctly they will last forever. If heat treated correctly Bamoo will not take a set. I have fished rods well over 100 years old that show no signs of degradation to the Bamboo. That is to say after repeated flexing the bamboo will return to the shape it was heat treated in. The long power fibers will not break easily compared to wood which typically has shorter grain structures. FYI: Bamboo is not a wood, it is a grass.
> 
> If I didn't have a new set of Quattros I would jump all over Bamboo core limbs. Knowing what I do about Bamboo, if I ever get off my butt and build a recurve it will have Bamboo backed limbs.


O.L. used Tonkin Cane in his ACS design as well.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> sounds reminiscent of the Hoyt Stealth shots that gave you 1 fps more speed.
> 
> 
> Chris


In my experience, the benefits of bamboo core limbs go well beyond speed. There is nothing smoother at the clicker than a bamboo limb. Not everyone needs that, but some will want it.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> It's not a marketing spin in this case (how often do I say that about a Hoyt product? LOL). The benefits of bamboo are significant. Glad to see them get on board.


Best answers from Border in this post:
https://www.facebook.com/BorderArch...2663494407009297&comment_tracking={"tn":"R2"}

Archery is a mind game - no question. So everyone should go with his best suited material.
But for the mechanics in limb performance i believe the small but well reputated company in scotland... ;-)

The curve design of limbs is relevant for smoothness etc - not so much the material.
A matter of fact you can also feel with non Border limbs as W&W e.g. has also different shapes.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

There are manufacturing advantages: lighter, cheaper, more uniform material. More environmental as it grows much faster. Those are reasons enough for me. It's surprising its taken so long for big companies to start using it.

All limbs made with bamboo I've tried have been very light in mass, and there has been a feel difference to maple limbs. Foam, not so much.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Just FYI, Howard Hill used often bamboo backed bows. I seem to remember early Samick limbs using bamboo.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> There are manufacturing advantages: lighter, cheaper, more uniform material.


That's simply not true.
Bambo is heavier than maple. And if lightness of the core material would be a big issue - foam cores should outperform all other core materials by far.

https://www.facebook.com/BorderArch...2667550086603729&comment_tracking={"tn":"R2"}

BTW, i'm not owning any border limbs nor am i working for this company, but there is too much superficial knowledge in this thread...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Funny you would consider my (and Brady's) first-hand experience with bamboo core limbs to be superficial. 

You might want to reconsider your sources.


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## gdrudd13 (Feb 16, 2016)

Captain Kirk said:


> That's simply not true.
> Bambo is heavier than maple.


Bamboo is nowhere near as dense as maple. Granted this chart does not have specific examples and each species will have some variation, but the lightest given density for maple is still 50% more dense than the densest bamboo.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html

This may or may not have any bearing on the limb speed, but material vs. material, bamboo will be lighter weight for a given volume. If the limb requires three times the amount of bamboo to get equivalent strength/speed/etc. as opposed to maple, then the bamboo limb may in fact be heavier. If this were the case though, the size of the limbs would be the deciding factor on bamboo being a poor material choice. I don't have a lot of experience with bamboo limbs, but none of the ones I've seen have had that large of a difference in size.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

why did i just wait for this argument....

Brady shot the last years with Hoyt limbs - maple core i assume. Next season we will most likely see him shooting bamboo core because of his new limbs offered by Hoyt. Just that.
The same game with formula vs ILF. I'm pretty sure that the main compnents of his exceptional achievements are due to his mind, personality and training. And not the core material of limbs.

Some medals and world records the last years were achieved with ILF, some with Formula. So which system is better? Obviously none of both.
If we see Win&Win offering bamboo core limbs at top level (actually they do offer bamboo core limbs with their sub-brand "Kinetic" at entry level), or switching all korean shooters to Hoyt bamboo limbs - i will rethink my position. 



limbwalker said:


> You might want to reconsider your sources.


Why?


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Its all hype until Hoyt publishes the draw force curves for these limbs

The border limbs get their speed because they are running a much shorter brace height and their design stacks a lot more up front then when at full draw. All this results in more stored energy in the limbs than the more traditional limbs. The greater the stored energy the faster the arrow. There is no rocket science here. Its not about weight at full draw its all about more stored energy.

If Hoyt really thinks their limbs are better, then publish the draw force curves, publish the mass of their limbs, publish the velocity of arrows with different masses, publish the string data used in the test so that limb efficiency can be computed.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

gdrudd13 said:


> Bamboo is nowhere near as dense as maple. Granted this chart does not have specific examples and each species will have some variation, but the lightest given density for maple is still 50% more dense than the densest bamboo.
> 
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html
> 
> This may or may not have any bearing on the limb speed, but material vs. material, bamboo will be lighter weight for a given volume. If the limb requires three times the amount of bamboo to get equivalent strength/speed/etc. as opposed to maple, then the bamboo limb may in fact be heavier. If this were the case though, the size of the limbs would be the deciding factor on bamboo being a poor material choice. I don't have a lot of experience with bamboo limbs, but none of the ones I've seen have had that large of a difference in size.


All German sources will give bamboo a dense apr. 700-800 kg/m3 and for hard maple 600-650 kg/m3

Just found an article of from a german university for wood engineering - bambo has a big viriance in density depending from type.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

gdrudd13 said:


> Bamboo is nowhere near as dense as maple. Granted this chart does not have specific examples and each species will have some variation, but the lightest given density for maple is still 50% more dense than the densest bamboo.


A good source is wood-database.com with any wood related data. It gives Hard Maple (which limbs are made of) density of 705 kg/m3, and bamboo, depending on variety 500 kg/m3 to 850 kg/m3. It has far higher elastic modulus and usually modulus of rupture too.

As far as sources go, even though Sid (usually Jr.) is very enthusiastic about what they make, they have limited knowledge of what top level competitors want from their limbs. It used to be slightly different back in the day, around 2000's, when bunch of top shooters were using their limbs, but with those "extreme curves", you are working with a fairly limited framework.

And don't start banging about me not knowing anything about them. I've shot most models, and still own some of their bows, from pre-Border "Kings of Kelso" field bow, to Border and Carbofast -branded limbs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Does anyone else here find it odd that I'm the one arguing the merits of a Hoyt limb? LOL.

CK, if you were familiar with my prior opinions on the topic of "top archers shooting the latest models" - esp. regarding Hoyt - you would realize I'm not coming from that place at all. Just sharing my enthusiasm for bamboo core competition limbs (and relaying what Brady told me about the ones he used when he shot Mathews) and commending Hoyt on exploring the material in their high-end limbs. 

In fact, I would not be at all surprised if a conversation between Brady and Doug is what led to this. Not surprised at all.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Its all hype until Hoyt publishes the draw force curves for these limbs

The border limbs get their speed because they are running a much shorter brace height and their design stacks a lot more up front then when at full draw. All this results in more stored energy in the limbs than the more traditional limbs. The greater the stored energy the faster the arrow. There is no rocket science here. Its not about weight at full draw its all about more stored energy.

If Hoyt really thinks their limbs are better, then publish the draw force curves, publish the mass of their limbs, publish the velocity of arrows with different masses, publish the string data used in the test so that limb efficiency can be computed.

Just that simple. Amen.

As long as records and medals are shot with different manufacturers and systems of limbs and risers, i see no need for hypeing.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> Its all hype until Hoyt publishes the draw force curves for these limbs
> 
> The border limbs get their speed because they are running a much shorter brace height and their design stacks a lot more up front then when at full draw. All this results in more stored energy in the limbs than the more traditional limbs. The greater the stored energy the faster the arrow. There is no rocket science here. Its not about weight at full draw its all about more stored energy.
> 
> ...


Only, only if we had speed competitions. Rather than accuracy.

We've been here thousands of times. There is a reason, no top archer shoots Border limbs. And it's not sponsorship, even though they want to make it like that, as very limited number of archers are actually sponsored.

But, I'm not getting once again into Border vs. others argument. Sid knows my position very well already.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

First of all, Hoyt will never publish the DFC for those limbs. Ever. So that's just not going to happen.

And I don't remember anyone here saying "Hoyt's" bamboo core limbs are better. Just that bamboo makes for a superb limb core, and I for one am glad to see them introduce it into their premium competition limbs. 

You are looking for something to argue against and I just don't see where anyone - esp. Hoyt - is hyping anything, so chillax man.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal said:


> Only, only if we had speed competitions. Rather than accuracy.
> 
> We've been here thousands of times. There is a reason, no top archer shoots Border limbs. And it's not sponsorship, even though they want to make it like that, as very limited number of archers are actually sponsored.
> 
> But, I'm not getting once again into Border vs. others argument. Sid knows my position very well already.


I really wish Border had never been mentioned on this thread. 

Could we please get back to the topic at hand? Anyone who has experience with the new bamboo core Hoyt limbs, please feel free to chime in.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I really wish Border had never been mentioned on this thread.
> 
> Could we please get back to the topic at hand? Anyone who has experience with the new bamboo core Hoyt limbs, please feel free to chime in.


What I've heard they are very smooth to draw and seem faster than previous limbs. A guy I'm coaching (I know, I wasn't supposed to start coaching again) is getting a pair to test with tomorrow, will tell more if I can escape early from Uni and try them.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Vic shoots with sky limbs sometimes. Are those bamboo? I've shot next to the guy and that Matthews with the Sky limbs is a really quiet combination.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nope. Vic's SKY limbs were Maple core, just like my original SKY limbs. Earl Jr. to my knowledge, never produced bamboo core limbs under the SKY brand. Mathews did briefly when Brady was shooting for them, and then Jim Belcher did after that when he bought SKY from Mathews. He knew how high an opinion Brady had of those limbs. After shooting Jim's bamboo SKY limbs, I was of the same opinion. 340's tend to make a person feel that way. 

Vic's bow was famous for how quiet it was. My original TR-7 risers with my SKY maple core limbs are as well. Sure makes for a pleasant shooting experience. Bamboo core limbs in my experience are as quiet and even smoother than the maple cored limbs.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

my wife and I have been shooting Hoyt limbs for a long time. I have bent Doug Denton's ear many times and he mine. Every thing he has told me about Hoyt limbs has been FACT !


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Does anyone else here find it odd that I'm the one arguing the merits of a Hoyt limb? LOL.


I had to quadruple check the username.

Next you're going to switch to X10s and GT is going to have a heart attack.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

Bamboo is lighter than Maple. And that's a good thing if the overall limb weight is less than an equal profile heavier limb, as I understand it. 

Has anyone tried the Bamboo limbs Alternative sells?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arsi said:


> I had to quadruple check the username.
> 
> Next you're going to switch to X10s and GT is going to have a heart attack.


Don't give me any ideas. LOL


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

I'll be looking for limbs again very soon. From what I'm told these new Hoyt limbs might be coming home with me. As I understand it they are more than just a new bamboo core & are steady, rock solid, fast and very smooth. True enough, latest, greatest hype is in marketing, a fact of life, but as always the proof is in the shooting. I haven't ruled out other manufactures just yet but as of now these are on my short list


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> Sounds more like a new marketing spin selling more limbs.
> 
> BTW,
> https://www.facebook.com/BorderArchery/posts/2663454160346655


Companies are in business to sell more limbs so call it what you want it. I'm happy that they keep trying to improve products-- which they are doing


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

chrstphr said:


> sounds reminiscent of the Hoyt Stealth shots that gave you 1 fps more speed.
> 
> 
> Chris


Exactly why intelligent people stop posting here. This and the last person I wasted my time replying to. I just shared what I thought was an interesting fact from a conversation with the guy who actually builds the limbs. Nothing to do with trying to "sell" anyone anything. Just an archers excitement about a new product. I thought it was worth mentioning that this is the first time I know of Hoyt's wood core limb being faster than the foam variety. Doug is very passionate about making the best recurve equipment he can. That is always his intent and I thought you guys would appreciate the inside scoop


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## sdcoyote (Oct 19, 2016)

I've shot SKY's bamboo core limbs for the last year and they are as good or better than anything I've used in the last 30 years. I actually starting shooting recurve in 1952 and my first target bow had bamboo limbs and came from an archery company in California. As a twelve-year old, I was the only archer in a small midwest town and now I'm one of four or five recurve target archers in a city of 180,00! Compound rules the day! I still love to see the arrow all the way to the center of the gold.


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> In my experience, the benefits of bamboo core limbs go well beyond speed. There is nothing smoother at the clicker than a bamboo limb. Not everyone needs that, but some will want it.


And that's exactly the impression I got when talking to the guys who built these and shot/tested these-- they are smoother than ever and as a nice bonus, happen to be a bit faster-- who wouldn't want that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Doug is very passionate about making the best recurve equipment he can. That is always his intent


I have never doubted that. I like Doug. Always have. I like his innovative mind and I think he has a very cool job and he is a consummate professional.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jaredjms said:


> Exactly why intelligent people stop posting here. This and the last person I wasted my time replying to. I just shared what I thought was an interesting fact from a conversation with the guy who actually builds the limbs. Nothing to do with trying to "sell" anyone anything. Just an archers excitement about a new product. I thought it was worth mentioning that this is the first time I know of Hoyt's wood core limb being faster than the foam variety. Doug is very passionate about making the best recurve equipment he can. That is always his intent and I thought you guys would appreciate the inside scoop


Well, im sorry im not intelligent. To me smoothness of the limb is a great quality. I actually prefer wood core limbs and personally shoot wood core.

Having a 2 fps faster limb is not in my opinion. Having a wood limb that is 2 fps faster than a foam limb is also not something i find important. But again, i am not intelligent. So such facts are lost on me. 

I have posted numerous times that i dont find speed to be a factor with recurve archery, or recurve tuning. I would be interested in the smoothness. But i also read Border's opinion of bamboo on their facebook.

Chris


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Facts have a way of screwing up what we assume, believe or try to sell. I wish AT was a place I could count on to get more facts and less bull****.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Why do people shell out nearly a grand to buy some archery hardware? Is it how it shoots, or is it just the latest bling, that they will buy new next year?

Its just crazy that people buy things that have no real technical advantage.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

The core of the limb contributes almost nothing in poundage, and therefore nothing to the "smoothness" at full draw through the clicker zone.

The core's function is to be as light and stable as possible, and to keep the working parts of the limb apart. It's the limb profile that changes the draw force curve, and therefore how smooth a bow is at full draw.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

John_K said:


> The core of the limb contributes almost nothing in poundage, and therefore nothing to the "smoothness" at full draw through the clicker zone.
> 
> The core's function is to be as light and stable as possible, and to keep the working parts of the limb apart. It's the limb profile that changes the draw force curve, and therefore how smooth a bow is at full draw.


Not in this particular case.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

theminoritydude said:


> Not in this particular case.


I'd be interested to see an explanation of that. A quick Google didn't turn one up.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Can someone quantify this smoothness.
Dfc maybe?
Through the clicker... 
The only thing that will change the feeling through tue clicker is limb taper. Or limb shape.

Someone put down some numbers. Please.


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> Well, im sorry im not intelligent. To me smoothness of the limb is a great quality. I actually prefer wood core limbs and personally shoot wood core.
> 
> Having a 2 fps faster limb is not in my opinion. Having a wood limb that is 2 fps faster than a foam limb is also not something i find important. But again, i am not intelligent. So such facts are lost on me.
> 
> ...


Want ridiculously smooth limbs? Give Uukha a try. Even the lower end Uukha are ridiculous.

As for staying on topic, I've pinned this thread in hopes that there's some feedback from folk who actually try the product. It would be great if someone did a blind draw test. Get a few identical risers with maple, foam and bamboo core limbs and ask which felt smoother at various stages in the draw, felt less vibration, etc.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

John_K said:


> I'd be interested to see an explanation of that. A quick Google didn't turn one up.


Bamboo alone is used to construct bows, they still do that in Bhutan. Using it as a core material, it is unavoidable that it should contribute more to the poundage than other types of synthetic cores. 

By my predictions, the new X Tour limbs should outperform the Quattro's, as long as the bamboo core retains its strength in the limb's axis.

After a certain number of shots, it's anybody's guess.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Try 0.5lbs per inch at full draw. For a 50lbs holding weight. Done with maple. Or elm. Or synthetic core or bamboo. (Because core doesnt matter)

Take the 2lbs per inch. And turn it into 0.5lbs in the last few inches and you will then think even your uukhas stack

So a change in the dfc to 3 decimal places is worth marketting. Imagine changing integers on the DFC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> Bamboo alone is used to construct bows, they still do that in Bhutan. Using it as a core material, it is unavoidable that it should contribute more to the poundage than other types of synthetic cores.
> 
> By my predictions, the new X Tour limbs should outperform the Quattro's, as long as the bamboo core retains its strength in the limb's axis.
> 
> After a certain number of shots, it's anybody's guess.


When we make a set of limbs to a customers spec. We choose the laminate. Then look up our sheets to work out the core value.
We then grind the core to the size our experience tells us.
We then tiller the limbs to spec.
This delivers the draw weights we are looking for.
What you might find supprising is that we dont have different core sizes for different core materials as it delivers the same final poundage irrespective of core.
So there is no difference in maple. Elm bamboo or synthetic cores when making a bow. So if the final draw weight is equal. Then how would the DFC change?

The post release is different as post shot has a mass question over it. But we are reading a smoothness through the clicker.
Limb geometry and limb taper change smoothness.

So i stand by my coment. Lets see a DFC difference?
Smoothness has to be quantifiable.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

What if Hoyt found a way to do what I think they are doing?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Looking forward to hearing from someone who's actually used these new bamboo core limbs. I might just have to get a pair myself and try them.

All things being equal (limb shape, construction, etc.) the bamboo core limbs I've used in the past have always been faster and both smoother through the clicker and smoother feeling at the shot, than any other core material I've used. Totally subjective and anecdotal, but as someone who's actually shot 330+ in competition with an OR, I feel like my "subjective" impressions do matter - at least to me.

John


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> Well, im sorry im not intelligent. To me smoothness of the limb is a great quality. I actually prefer wood core limbs and personally shoot wood core.
> 
> Having a 2 fps faster limb is not in my opinion. Having a wood limb that is 2 fps faster than a foam limb is also not something i find important. But again, i am not intelligent. So such facts are lost on me.
> 
> ...


For my understanding, you write very intelligent words 

Curious that the Koreans shoot one record after another and win medals in a row with "orthodox" setups with the main focus on vibration reduction and stability. 
I don't think they are very much into the chasing of fps in their equipment.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Looking forward to hearing from someone who's actually used these new bamboo core limbs. I might just have to get a pair myself and try them.
> 
> All things being equal (limb shape, construction, etc.) the bamboo core limbs I've used in the past have always been faster and both smoother through the clicker and smoother feeling at the shot, than any other core material I've used. Totally subjective and anecdotal, but as someone who's actually shot 330+ in competition with an OR, I feel like my "subjective" impressions do matter - at least to me.
> 
> John


Yes your opinions do matter. Though impirical testing also matters.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Captain Kirk said:


> For my understanding, you write very intelligent words
> 
> Curious that the Koreans shoot one record after another and win medals in a row with "orthodox" setups with the main focus on vibration reduction and stability.
> I don't think they are very much into the chasing of fps in their equipment.


As I sated earlier, the main benefits to bamboo in my mind (as someone who has shot them at a number of competitions) really have nothing to do with speed. 

This is why I'm particularly curious about Hoyts new limbs. I want to see if others have the same impressions as I have.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

I'm curious too. 
Especially because Hoyt blazed several paths successfully where other companies followed - but sometimes they failed (stealth shot e.g.)
We see more when somebody bring a draw curve of the banboos compared to quattros.

I know you didn't mention the speed thing, but ist was dropped already at this thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

When I saw those limbs, I had two "gut" feelings (both of which could be wrong, but hey) - that Doug was not satisfied with Hoyt's reputation for limbs compared to W&W and he's trying to do something about that. The other was Brady's influence because I do know first hand how he felt about the TR-7 limbs. When he saw my bamboo core SKY TR-7 limbs at the 2012 trials, he came over and asked me about them, then shared his experiences with me about the ones he shot, which were all positive.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

My objection would be that they sunsetted my current limbs and the 840s they slotted into their spot are 10% more expensive. The more they go up the more I start looking at lower end Uukhas, MK, etc.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Azzurri said:


> My objection would be that they sunsetted my current limbs and the 840s they slotted into their spot are 10% more expensive. The more they go up the more I start looking at lower end Uukhas, MK, etc.


Oh, I'm sure that will happen for a lot of folks, but Hoyt has never been very interested in lower-priced offerings. Their approach has always been to appeal to the highest end of the market. It's a strategy that works for many companies (Mercedes, Swarovski and until recently, Weatherby rifles come to mind...), but leaves behind a lot of consumers too. And the simple fact that they are more expensive, in some consumer's minds, will mean they are automatically better. I still can't believe that some people think that way, but apparently they do. Fortunately for us on modest incomes, there are always other options, including the used market.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Azzurri said:


> My objection would be that they sunsetted my current limbs and the 840s they slotted into their spot are 10% more expensive. The more they go up the more I start looking at lower end Uukhas, MK, etc.


Lancaster has the 720s on clearance now. I sprung for a pair.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Still all the discussions here are all about opinions that it got to be better.

Without Draw Force Curves, velocity measurements with different arrow masses, publishing the limb masses, and the string mass for the test, then all this is my bling is better than your bling with zero data to back it up.

Hoyt will give limbs to Brady, he will shoot them, and everyone will jump on the band wagon and shelling out nearly a grand and regurgitate the same lines.

What ever happened to hard core verifiable data?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Without Draw Force Curves, velocity measurements with different arrow masses, publishing the limb masses, and the string mass for the test, then all this is my bling is better than your bling with zero data to back it up.


At the risk of sounding like the corporate shills that I have long criticized... there really is more to a great shooting limb than things you can easily measure. When it comes to bamboo, I've found some of the qualities hard to describe, but I knew them when I felt and heard them. Quiet, smooth limbs that happen to be fast, give an archer a great amount of confidence. At least, they do that for me. 

But yea, numbers would be fun to see. Only we'll never get them from Hoyt.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Archery is a mind game.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

There are a couple people who try to build databases of limb stats. Hank Thoreau (sp?) gathers up whatever he can. The problem is, like everything else, unless an independent party tests all the gear with the same equipment, the results are easily skewed. No company could do it, because as soon as they started publishing data for other companies the bag of cats would be open. So broad and generic statements rule the day. I think that there is something to core, despite protests to the contrary. I have shot a couple different limbs that are purportedly the same except for core and have personal preferences. So to say that core has no effect, to me, anecdotally, doesn't make sense. 

It would be cool if a well funded individual, or frankly a large club with diverse equipment, could do an independent collection and put it out. I don't know that I would change any of my gear because of it, but just interested to see where stuff falls in line.

Cheers


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## gdrudd13 (Feb 16, 2016)

Azzurri said:


> My objection would be that they sunsetted my current limbs and the 840s they slotted into their spot are 10% more expensive.


I was going to get the 720's, and had actually paid for them at my local archery shop (they're a hoyt dealer and were cheaper than lancaster before they went on sale), but when they called to order them they had stopped making them. Good news is that now I get to try the 840's without paying extra, but I'm sure I'll have to wait awhile before I get them.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

you can measure smoothness. Speed and Torsional stability.

so how about it.

they claim bamboo increases Torsional stability, speed and smoothness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbD8gliPvlM
0:52 seconds till 1:06
its the TS increase id like to see measured...


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

bobnikon said:


> There are a couple people who try to build databases of limb stats. Hank Thoreau (sp?) gathers up whatever he can. The problem is, like everything else, unless an independent party tests all the gear with the same equipment, the results are easily skewed. No company could do it, because as soon as they started publishing data for other companies the bag of cats would be open. So broad and generic statements rule the day. I think that there is something to core, despite protests to the contrary. I have shot a couple different limbs that are purportedly the same except for core and have personal preferences. So to say that core has no effect, to me, anecdotally, doesn't make sense.
> 
> It would be cool if a well funded individual, or frankly a large club with diverse equipment, could do an independent collection and put it out. I don't know that I would change any of my gear because of it, but just interested to see where stuff falls in line.
> 
> Cheers


Actually a company can do it. All they have to do publish the test conditions. Draw force curves are really simple to make. With the right equipment the data can be collected and plotted in a matter of minutes. I would be surprised if they don't have the hardware to do it.

But one reason to hide it would be from a product liability issue. i.e. there products might not be consistent from limb to limb, thus they can run into a lot of warrantee issues if someone bought a set of limbs expecting a certain set of specs but what they got isn't as advertised.

You should see the lot to lot mass variation for Easton arrows.


Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Actually a company can do it. All they have to do publish the test conditions. Draw force curves are really simple to make. With the right equipment the data can be collected and plotted in a matter of minutes. I would be surprised if they don't have the hardware to do it.
> 
> But one reason to hide it would be from a product liability issue. i.e. there products might not be consistent from limb to limb, thus they can run into a lot of warrantee issues if someone bought a set of limbs expecting a certain set of specs but what they got isn't as advertised.
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point. Of course any company could do it, but then the info would be out there, and broad claims of increased this, ultimate that and such could be discounted. It would also require them to quantifiably show that the latest and greatest was actually not only better than the competitior, but measurably better than their own last year's greatest innovation.

Still would like to try the new bamboo core limbs when someone sells them in 2018.


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## MHoward (Aug 18, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, bamboo core limbs are nothing new. O.L. Adcock was putting bamboo cores in his patented ACS longbow limbs decades ago, and before that Howard Hill shot Bamboo longbows. Not many people knew Brady's Mathews TR-7 limbs back in the '06-08 era were bamboo core.
> 
> It's not a marketing spin in this case (how often do I say that about a Hoyt product? LOL). The benefits of bamboo are significant. Glad to see them get on board.


I agree! My father and I made bows for years back in the early 90's and no other core we tried compared to the bamboo. There is another trick I am waiting to see if Hoyt ever figures out to do to their limbs! It is do simple and would add speed and smoothness.


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## MHoward (Aug 18, 2008)

Maybe next year they will incorporate ibex horn with the bamboo


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Captain Kirk said:


> Archery is a mind game.


Very true, which is why it's always better to shoot with equipment you have a lot of confidence in.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> But one reason to hide it would be from a product liability issue. i.e. there products might not be consistent from limb to limb, thus they can run into a lot of warrantee issues if someone bought a set of limbs expecting a certain set of specs but what they got isn't as advertised.


another being that heaven forbid someone might make up their mind not to buy on the basis of the published data, as opposed to being a good sheep and just believing the marketing hype.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Very true, which is why it's always better to shoot with equipment you have a lot of confidence in.


A big plus 1 to that. You always hear people bashing equipment discussion with the motive that a good archer can perform with just about anything. Most can´t I would say, atleast if you count situations that really count. Sure, Brady will most likely switch to the new series of limbs if he didn't already did that. Not that I know Brady, but he probably tried a bunch of pairs to select the one he liked the best, then verified it during a period of time, then takes it to competitions. And he for sure keeps the old proven pair he used before in the closet while doing it to have a safe return if needed. Trust is the most important. No matter the level. 

I consider myself to be a pretty good archer, even if I am not olympic elite level, and I know how damn hard it can be to produce points or even get a decent tune with some bows. It´s even harder or even impossible with some bows to get the amount of shot feedback that you want or need to read your shots and improve over time. Whatever you do, some bows just seems to work against you. Then you take another bow and everything just fits. Tuning is easy, you get the points you feel you deserve and you build your confidence together with that bow. It´s you and your friend on the line. For me, it´s a huge difference, even in how the bow makes me motivated. Some bows makes me want to skip the last 50 arrows of the training session. Others makes me add 50 arrows, just because it´s so fun to shoot. The search for that perfect bow is what makes me try new gear more or less constantly. 

I have tried a few pairs of Sky Bamboo TR7:s and I personally liked them, but I didn´t love them. They had to much velvet like soft shot feedback for my taste, especially in my main riser that is pretty dampened already. In a crisper riser, I would have liked them better. Not sure it was the core however, since I also had a identical pair of TR7:s that had a maple core, and they felt close to identical. So the laminate stood for a bigger part of the feel than the core in that case. The Quattro was the first limb from Hoyt that I liked in decades. I think they are on the right track in their recurve lineup now. I look forward to try the new ones. But 2fps more? I don´t care jack sh*t. As long as the speed is somewhat near market standard, it´s fine with me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Martin, you are "Olympic elite level" when it comes to barebow. Don't sell yourself short. 

"you and your friend on the line" is a great way to put it. I have a few setups that definitely feel like a good partner on the line and I have tremendous confidence in them. Again, a lot of that is subjective. I'm not sure how you would measure it, but once you get to a certain level, you can feel and see it. 

Great shooting bows are fun to shoot. They make you want to shoot.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

MHoward said:


> Maybe next year they will incorporate ibex horn with the bamboo


"Our limbs are sealed with unicorn spit."


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

jaredjms said:


> I can't wait to get my hands on these limbs. I was talking to Doug Denton (Hoyt's head recurve engineer) last week and he was really excited about them. He said that they are simply the smoothest, fastest limbs he has ever built. An interesting fact he told me-- the bamboo core limbs are about 2 fps faster than the foam core version. Usually the foam core variant has the edge in speed


2 fps, really?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

We'll know in 5 - 10 years.

If almost everybody, or at least almost all "elite" shooters are shooting bamboo cored limbs, then it's all that and a bag of chips.
If not, then Kirk is right: It's marketing BS and nothing more. 
Right now, it's hearsay, regardless of who says it.

Viper1 out.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

As long as human being is a part of the system there is zero, zilch, absolute nadir value on "objective" measurements.

On the other hand, as any humanist or sociological researcher who leans to social constructionism knows simply how much there is effect in negative/positive valued meanings and meaningfulness derived from constructed knowledge, in interactions and institutionalized, symbolic signifiers, which come from objectified "knowledge".

All concepts were are talking about here are socially constructed, to give certain answers as they have in-build value system.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm not sure about that Tony - and here's why I say that. Core material is more about feel than about measurable performance IMO. So just like some elite archers choose foam core and some choose wood - all being able to shoot the same scores - bamboo will be a preference for some, even though they could probably shoot the same scores with foam or wood. 

If I were shooting Hoyt limbs, I know what my choice would be, based on prior experience with bamboo core competition limbs. Again, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brady had something to do with this, as much as he liked his bamboo core TR-7's.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

Somehow, I think we just said the same thing ... again.

Viper1 out.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

But how do you quantify that "feel"? That feel is a property of the limb. Granted, different people will have different opinions about the "feel" of a set of limbs. That is okay. It makes for a great variety of choices.

But there has to be something measurable about the limb that generates that certain feel. There is that feel during the draw, and that feel upon release. The release has two different aspects. The time the arrow is on the string, and the time after the arrow leaves the string. Hand shock and dampening which a lot of people attribute to limb quality is not felt until after the arrow leaves the string, so much of this perception has nothing to do with the arrow flight, just post shot feeling. Again, all of this is measurable and is a property of the limb.

John likes the feel of bamboo, nothing wrong with that. If Brady like the feel of bamboo, nothing wrong with that. But in order to have a liking to it from a real feel/performance issue, then there is a physical property the affects that feel/performance.

My issue with the industry is that they don't provide the physical data that shows the differences between different limbs, but rely on "hype" for a lack of a better word. When it comes with dealing with humans, there is not one optimal design that works great for everyone. What works well with an individual is as unique as the shooter themselves. We as a community of customers that keep the archery companies in business, we should be demanding the data and tell every salesman, show me the data sheets before I show you my money.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

As a economic-sociological researcher who currently deals with defining concepts daily, you could do a good MCA analysis to get a typology of ideal types who like certain things in a bow. But you can't quantify "feel", only more X, less X etc. so you would get millions (or multiple groups, hence the M in MCA) of variations.

Feel I like is far from the next person, and as speed, torsional stability and other things are less important for me than linear feel and feeling of power through last part of extension and through shot, that would put me well outside the hegemonic view. That group, which contains the largest sample, and where things are easier to quantify is the group that market researchers (rather than sociologists) are interested in, and that gives the trajectory of product development, and (ideological) concepts it uses is the "common knowledge" of what anyone should want.

The bible of this field of research is Pierre Bourdieu's "Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste", which is a mammoth of a book, based on years of research and only analyses fairly limited number of variables, far fewer than bow-human system would have.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

zal said:


> As a economic-sociological researcher who currently deals with defining concepts daily, you could do a good MCA analysis to get a typology of ideal types who like certain things in a bow. But you can't quantify "feel", only more X, less X etc. so you would get millions (or multiple groups, hence the M in MCA) of variations.
> 
> Feel I like is far from the next person, and as speed, torsional stability and other things are less important for me than linear feel and feeling of power through last part of extension and through shot, that would put me well outside the hegemonic view. That group, which contains the largest sample, and where things are easier to quantify is the group that market researchers (rather than sociologists) are interested in, and that gives the trajectory of product development, and (ideological) concepts it uses is the "common knowledge" of what anyone should want.
> 
> The bible of this field of research is Pierre Bourdieu's "Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste", which is a mammoth of a book, based on years of research and only analyses fairly limited number of variables, far fewer than bow-human system would have.


zal, you make me feel as stupid as my wife claims I am. LOL


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Keeshond said:


> zal, you make me feel as stupid as my wife claims I am. LOL


Not a matter of being stupid or bright, just a matter of reading a ton-load of research books.

Study like that would be pretty straightforward to do. Problem is, it takes time. So unless someone is willing to fund a researcher for an year or two, we are stuck with discussing our preferred "feels" until eternity.

Study of evolving taste is pretty important field of study, but it's very complicated. That's why only brand companies, such as Apple and media giants like Endemol do it, as it cuts straight into their core business. Often it makes no sense for companies to do such typography as hegemonic group is large enough for them to sell stuff for, and their use of symbolic violence means any holder of minority view, who wants anything different, is pretty much stuffed.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

zal said:


> Study like that would be pretty straightforward to do. Problem is, it takes time. So unless someone is willing to fund a researcher for an year or two, we are stuck with discussing our preferred "feels" until eternity.


Sounds like a Kickstarter campaign. I'd chip in. =]


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Can kickstarter be used to just fund research?


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Can kickstarter be used to just fund research?


I'm not a Kickstarter expert, but I think as long you are creating something to share (like a database of limb characteristics) it would be fine.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

So these just showed up at work. I won’t be home for a while so I just get to stare at them. I had a set of formula Quattros that were wonderful to shoot, so I look forward to shooting these in comparison to my MK’s I have shot for the last year. These will be going on a CD WFx riser that I already have some data points on to compare scores.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Nice limbs Scott. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks John.

For those curious I strung these up last night. They are 38# long limbs and hit about 42# at 29” on the WFx riser. For comparison my 34# MK’s (which tend to run 2# heavy) hit 40# at the same bolt setting. I had to slightly adjust the limb alignment on the lower limb. I set tiller 1/8” positive, brace at 9” and adjusted the weight to 41# and shot some arrows on blank bale. They draw nice and have a nice feel on the shot. That’s all I have for now. I hope to get to the range to shoot some rounds on Wednesday.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oooh - 38# longs. Just my specs.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I hope he chimes in with a more comprehensive review soon. More of a "traditional" guy, but I do love my wood ILF.

All bows I have shot with bamboo as a major component in limb construction have been heavenly in feel and quick to down right fast.

I am very interested in bamboo ILF limbs.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Just for clarification on my stance with Hoyt...

We have a few Hoyt sponsored shooters (with wheels) at the local club. One in particular loves to rundown others for shooting other bows. One night he was harassing a Matthew's shooter. I said to him, "nobody hates Hoyt bows." He replied with, "nobody!" I came back with, "it's only Hoyt shooters folks tend to have a problem with...". He got real quiet after that, but everyone else laughed to include a couple Hoyt shooters.

I am not a hype guy. I like what I like, and if no one agrees, that is fine with me too.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I really wish Border had never been mentioned on this thread.
> 
> Could we please get back to the topic at hand? Anyone who has experience with the new bamboo core Hoyt limbs, please feel free to chime in.


a student of mine is getting a set for Christmas I will report back in a month or so. He's a good archer-gold Olympian and shoots a serious weight bow


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim C said:


> a student of mine is getting a set for Christmas I will report back in a month or so. He's a good archer-gold Olympian and shoots a serious weight bow


Jim,

At my 48#@30.5" spec these things are sweet to draw and great on the release. I sure do like them some lots. Tuned in three ends. Dead straight. Quiet. Excellent fit and finish.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Could very well be the 1st set of Hoyt limbs I've shot since the legendary C+ 

Hmmm....


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Have the Quattros on my WFX SWEET !!! Have a set of Bamboo ordered for Sandy for Christmas


SBills said:


> So these just showed up at work. I won’t be home for a while so I just get to stare at them. I had a set of formula Quattros that were wonderful to shoot, so I look forward to shooting these in comparison to my MK’s I have shot for the last year. These will be going on a CD WFx riser that I already have some data points on to compare scores.
> 
> View attachment 5133601


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*Need to lighten your Quattro stock? Have a set of 44# Longs? Christmas is coming for me too....*


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Coming back to these limbs I have been shooting them nearly exclusively for the last month or so. They are just really nice to shoot. Teamed with a Spig DMS I have one of the most pleasant to shoot rigs I have ever had. The limbs are quiet, vibe free (even while stringwalking) and very consistent. I came within a point and x of a PB the other night. I can honestly say Hoyt has a set of ILF/HDS limbs that rival any other IMO. 

Currently shooting them at 9” brace and 1/16” positive tiller. Typically I run 0 to negative tiller, but this is where these seemed to tune, shoot and aim best.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sandy has a pair she is smiling if that means anything!


SBills said:


> So these just showed up at work. I won’t be home for a while so I just get to stare at them. I had a set of formula Quattros that were wonderful to shoot, so I look forward to shooting these in comparison to my MK’s I have shot for the last year. These will be going on a CD WFx riser that I already have some data points on to compare scores.
> 
> View attachment 5133601


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

> As long as human being is a part of the system there is zero, zilch, absolute nadir value on "objective" measurements.


So humans lie?



> On the other hand, as any humanist or sociological researcher who leans to social constructionism knows simply how much there is effect in negative/positive valued meanings and meaningfulness derived from constructed knowledge, in interactions and institutionalized, symbolic signifiers, which come from objectified "knowledge".


So eventually we all will agree?




> All concepts were are talking about here are socially constructed, to give certain answers as they have in-build value system.


So keep telling each other it's true until we all believe it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SBills said:


> Coming back to these limbs I have been shooting them nearly exclusively for the last month or so. They are just really nice to shoot. Teamed with a Spig DMS I have one of the most pleasant to shoot rigs I have ever had. The limbs are quiet, vibe free (even while stringwalking) and very consistent. I came within a point and x of a PB the other night. I can honestly say Hoyt has a set of ILF/HDS limbs that rival any other IMO.
> 
> Currently shooting them at 9” brace and 1/16” positive tiller. Typically I run 0 to negative tiller, but this is where these seemed to tune, shoot and aim best.


That's great news! And because they are bamboo core and not foam, I'd trust them to not explode on me. Hmmmm. Interesting indeed!


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## Snow_Kestrel (May 8, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> It's nice to see Hoyt embracing bamboo core for their new limbs. People may not realize what a great core material bamboo is, but many traditional archers have been using it for many years now, and love it.
> 
> Mine and Brady Ellison's SKY TR-7 limbs were bamboo core, and they were some of the best limbs either of us have ever shot. I shot all my personal best outdoor scores with those bamboo core SKY limbs. Smooth, quiet and fast with a draw force curve like no other material.
> 
> I look forward to hearing how they shoot for people.


Bamboo has been around a very long time. Likely hundreds of years in Yumi.


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