# Need to lose some weight ...



## jjgsp (Sep 6, 2002)

Try a Gold Tip ultra lite pro 500's ----cut to 26.25 with 1.8 vanes, pin nocks and a tip of 60 or 80 grain. Personnally I would go with the 80 gr tips. should get 248 to 265. They are relativey thin and very straight .001.


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

You can listen to others about arrow choices. (How many brands of arrows are there? That's probably how many opinions you'll get.)

To get by the "nearly hitting the scope" issue for the time being, any chance of bringing your sight in a couple of notches? That should give you plenty of clearance. (Ever see some of the FITA archers shooting 90 meters? Their sights are WAY in for that very reason - some even on the other side of the riser!!) There's trigonometry involved, but suffice it to say if it's further in, you'll have more clearance.

I ran into this myself on the 80.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

It's in your peep height...and also in your arrow rest.

How does your arrow look in relation to your berger hole? You would be amazed at how much moving the rest up a "HAIR" will give you. Also how high is your peep? That also affects how much yardage you can get. 

I have always found that I could get more yardage from a Pro Elite then most of the other bows I have shot.....53-54 lbs with a 295 grain arrow I could reach WAAAYYYY over 150 yds 

Also you could bring your sight bar in closer to the bar.....I shoot mine almost all the way out and still get all that distance. 

Be careful using a VERY light shaft like what you are looking at though. IMO they get VERY touchy at distance there just isn't enough weight to get them from being touchy at distance....BUT I will say that I do have better luck shooting light arrows going with HIGH END shafts. An ACE or McKinney II at 250 grains is much better then a fatter all carbon at 250 grains. At least from my testing anyway.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> No, not me ... my arrows!
> 
> Recently purchased a 50# Pro Elite from the classified section.
> I thought I'd be fine with the 296 grain 3L-18's I've been shooting.
> ...



rudeman has the answear. and speed ain't it.. 

I have a protec set at 44 pounds and I shoot a 317 grain arrow out to 80 with plenty of clearence. I have 8 inch bar on site and have it about 1/2 way out. I use a 1 1/4 inch scope houseing. Plenty of room.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

I got to agree with all who have suggested alternatives to arrow replacement.

I have a "large" 1 3/4" scope housing and have no trouble getting marks out to 80+ yards with my 50# Mojo. If my arrow scale is correct, my ACCs are weighing in at 345.

It all boiled down to the arrow rest & peep position AND the biggest factor of all was adjusting my anchor point down to my jaw vs. my cheek.

Just my $0.015


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I got to agree with all who have suggested alternatives to arrow replacement.
> 
> I have a "large" 1 3/4" scope housing and have no trouble getting marks out to 80+ yards with my 50# Mojo. If my arrow scale is correct, my ACCs are weighing in at 345.
> 
> ...


:set1_signs009:

There ain't no magic speed.. 280 is the limit.. not really the goal. Some will remember my first trip out to TA last year with my newly acquired scope courtesy of CR Archery and the Hinkelmonster Shoot from earlier in the year.. I'd shot it to 65, but not to 80.. well, when we hit that 80 target and my first arrow struck the ground about midway downrange, I learned that I should have shot it at 80 before comin out to shoot a round.. :embara: :chortle:

I have since adjusted my anchor to a lower point, and can now launch an arrow further than I can see. :wink: I've shot my CR Apex (1.375") most of the summer with no issues.. now shooting my Top Gun, which is a bit smaller, but I didn't change for clearance reasons. :wink:

Play with your form a bit before you break the bank on new shafts.. :wink:

What speed are you presently getting? :noidea:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

IGluIt4U said:


> :set1_signs009:
> 
> There ain't no magic speed.. 280 is the limit.. not really the goal. Some will remember my first trip out to TA last year with my newly acquired scope courtesy of CR Archery and the Hinkelmonster Shoot from earlier in the year.. I'd shot it to 65, but not to 80.. well, when we hit that 80 target and my first arrow struck the ground about midway downrange, I learned that I should have shot it at 80 before comin out to shoot a round.. :embara: :chortle:
> 
> ...


Some times it DOES pay to NOT win the Hinky shoot. :wink: At least you made it out to 65 yards. I can pretty much shoot 45 yards all day especially on a spot that big, but I blew the 45 with "both" my arrows. Now I'm just waiting for that Doinker I won - come on Hinky, light a fire under them folks - I'm getting anxious. :tongue:


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## SCarson (Apr 13, 2008)

I would go with checking alternatives. I was shooting 50.5# with 2213s weighing in at 448 grains. I still had 1/8 inch clearance left at the 80 yard mark using a 1 3/8 scope. I had the sight arm at the third notch from the end on a 9 inch arm. I never chronied it, but if OT2 was close, I was getting about 215 to 220 fps. As it was 'splained to me, it's not how fast it gets there, it's where it hits the target.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

If you're comfortable with where your peep is and your anchor, don't fool with that one at all.... Peep height can get you some yardage real fast, but if it has you out of line, it's not worth it.

I shoot a really low peep, and to get 80 I have my bar less than an inch from the riser. And remember. The eighty is just two arrows out of 112. I'd even look and see if you can hold on the 3/4 line above the spot and shoot the 80. I shoot low poundage too, and I've shot my eighty with the spot sitting on top of the bubble.... Hit it pretty often too... 

I'd try a bunch of things before I spent $$ on arrows specially if you like what you're doing now other than the eighty problem.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Your input has not gone ignored folks.
After more testing ... I have come to the conclusion that something, somewhere is not right about this bow.

It's currently shooting 240 FPS with the aforementioned 3L-18's.
More disturbingly, it won't group like it should ... at any yardage.
I have a Katera XL that'll shoot circles around it. (Speed AND groups.)
Yes I realize that it isn't gonna match the speed.

Anyway ... I have new cables & string ordered.
Upon arrival, I'll pull the thing completely apart & inspect accordingly.

Thanks for reading.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> Your input has not gone ignored folks.
> After more testing ... I have come to the conclusion that something, somewhere is not right about this bow.
> 
> It's currently shooting 240 FPS with the aforementioned 3L-18's.
> ...


Check your axles maybe???


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JMJ said:


> Your input has not gone ignored folks.
> After more testing ... I have come to the conclusion that something, somewhere is not right about this bow.
> 
> It's currently shooting 240 FPS with the aforementioned 3L-18's.
> ...


Sounds like you just need to set that sucker up.

What are your specs...and what limbs/cams are you shooting?


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

*Update*

After installation of new cables & string, and a bunch of measuring/tweaking, the thing finally shoots like it should.
I haven't shot a half with it yet, but if groups while setting sight marks are any indication, it's looking promising.

One disappointment though ... that thing is still slow slow slow.
243 fps...
Suppose I'll shoot it that way and see how the scores turn out.
If that goes well, maybe I'll convince myself to buy some ACE's.
I already know that with 5 gpp it'll do right at 260 fps. (Tried a friend's Gold Tips)
I haven't decided that 17 fps +/- is worth $300.00+. (I've shot ACE's in the past. And best I remember, the only advantage they had over ACC's on a field range was lighter weight @ the correct spine.)

And to answer your previous questions BH ...
It has 3K limbs with the cam .5.


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## RchurE (Mar 20, 2007)

Man I gotta say I wouldn't worry about that speed at all. I'd take the advice here and get your 80 in by moving your bar in a notch or two and playing with the rest height. I'm not a big fan of moving your peep because if you've shot a while then your muscle memory with your anchor is going to be tough to change. Get your anchor comfy and adjust your rest and sight radius and you'll be fine. 

I'd much rather shoot a heavier arrow with a good point weight and F.O.C. than a really light arrow and point. Your groups at 55+ yards will thank you for it. The arrows you have are good ones and unless you're a really "high end" shooter I don't think the really "high end" shafts are going to gain you very much. Don't get me wrong, they're good and they have their place but I can't justify them shooting in the 530's and 540's. 

I switched from ACC's to Maxima 3-D selects this past year just because I was a little bored and wanted to try something new. They did a fine job. If the ranges you plan to shoot are wide open and wind is a factor then you might justify the tiny expensive shafts or if you're going to shoot some FITA too but otherwise I just don't think you'll gain enough points to justify them.

That ProElite will shoot, just give it a chance. If you're switching from a Kat XL the string angle is way different so you'll just have to get used to that and that may be why you're not grouping as well initially. 

My thoughts anyway.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> After installation of new cables & string, and a bunch of measuring/tweaking, the thing finally shoots like it should.
> I haven't shot a half with it yet, but if groups while setting sight marks are any indication, it's looking promising.
> 
> One disappointment though ... that thing is still slow slow slow.
> ...


in the field and Fita game since the yardage is known and they will even let you range finder it. shooting a faster arrow doesn't give an advantage. 

What gives advantage is how well you can executate your shot routine. your score is just a reflection of how well you are execuating.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Bees said:


> in the field and Fita game since the yardage is known and they will even let you range finder it. shooting a faster arrow doesn't give an advantage.
> 
> What gives advantage is how well you can executate your shot routine. your score is just a reflection of how well you are execuating.


Shot any 65 yarders lately with a 20* uphill or downhill.

I appreciate all the input ... but IMHO, if you think speed doesn't help, you haven't been in the game very long.

No offense intended ...
But from the time I started this thread, there has been only 1 reply that addressed the question I originally asked. (Thank you jjgsp.)

Thank you all and have a very good night. :cocktail:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> Shot any 65 yarders lately with a 20* uphill or downhill.
> 
> I appreciate all the input ... but IMHO, if you think speed doesn't help, you haven't been in the game very long.
> 
> ...


my aren't we speed sensitive! well go get your light arrow and get your speed up to 280 feet per second any 6.9 grain/inch arrow cut around 26-26.5 inches should spine out and be shotable up to about 60 pounds. your arrow should weight in right around 310 grains with 100 grain tip and with 55 - 60 pounds you should get 280 speed. with a draw around 28 inches, if ya got 29 inch draw you'll get more. keep track see if your scores go up. mine didn't. that's why I went back to the slower bow, score is better and don't get so tired. I have shot all the coarses in Maryland except one and they have 65 yards and longer downhill and I didn't find speed to be an advantage.  you have a good one too.


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

JMJ said:


> . . .if you think speed doesn't help, you haven't been in the game very long. . .


I do agree with this statement, although the politician in me thinks it could have been worded a bit more gently. 

I didn't have to be in the target game very long at all before I realized that if you are shooting spots. . .the name of the game was get that arrow _MOVING_ as fast as possible (280 is the speed limit, though) with a light draw wt.- you gotta pull that sucker 112 times.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> in the field and Fita game since the yardage is known and they will even let you range finder it. shooting a faster arrow doesn't give an advantage.
> 
> What gives advantage is how well you can executate your shot routine. your score is just a reflection of how well you are execuating.


I disagree....I am not talking about shooting a burner....but IMO the AVG archer be better off and I would much rather shoot 260-275 then to shoot 240-260.

There is an advantage if using high grade arrows like an ACE, Nano, X10 or McKinney II and getting those speeds.

Just play with OT2s target plotter for a little bit and you will see what I am talking about:wink:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> I disagree....I am not talking about shooting a burner....but IMO the AVG archer be better off and I would much rather shoot 260-275 then to shoot 240-260.
> 
> There is an advantage if using high grade arrows like an ACE, Nano, X10 or McKinney II and getting those speeds.
> 
> Just play with OT2s target plotter for a little bit and you will see what I am talking about:wink:


if what your saying is true than when you went to the faster arrow you should have seen a jump in your average score and it should have stayed there. Was there a jump in your score and is it still there? So how many points is the 280 speed worth.? If 280 speed helps you should be able to put a number on it. and if the nano arrows helped you should be able to tell me how many points they are worth compared to an ACC for example??? 

how much do I have to spend to buy a 275 average??? 




Like Parg told me that a long stabilizer was worth 11 points better, but he hasn't mentioned it lately wonder if the extra points are still there?
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=734005

What I said and you quoted, I know is true, the better you can executate the better you can score.  I know my better execuation with a bow arrow and rest combo at 235 ft/sec has produce an average 0f 25 points better. than the faster set up.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> if what your saying is true than when you went to the faster arrow you should have seen a jump in your average score and it should have stayed there. Was there a jump in your score and is it still there? So how many points is the 280 speed worth.? If 280 speed helps you should be able to put a number on it. and if the nano arrows helped you should be able to tell me how many points they are worth compared to an ACC for example???
> 
> how much do I have to spend to buy a 275 average???
> 
> ...



and just like on the Hill....you are over analyzing what I am saying just like you did when Mac and I tried to help you.

It isn't about hitting "280" but there are gains to shooting 270-280 vs shooting 250. There is a huge difference in shooting an arrow like a GT 500 that barely spines right or doesn't, is short as it possible can be with a light point that gives a poor FOC......Vs shooting one of the arrows I mentioned that are spined correctly and still have an FOC in the 12-14% range. You may not think so.....but there is a difference. How do I know.....because I have shot them.:wink:

Have my scores gone up....yes. When I switched from my ACCs last year that were SLOW to McKinney IIs.....my avg went up. Even though I wasn't shooting great the faster arrow saved me a lot of spots that I wouldn't have had with the ACC.

When I switched from shooting 250 with my Nanos to shooting 260-265 with my Nanos this year....the scores went back up also. Am I shooting better now then I have in years passed.....NO. Why....because I don't PRACTICE at all. But I know that I have shot some of best halfs that I have EVER shot since July. With the faster setups. Like on the back half of the Hill when I dropped 8 points....10 on the front on the Hill....and 5 on a half at home....that is with Nanos. When I tried ACEs with the new bow. They were on the weak side spine wise and although they shot very good and did help my scores from not being dog slow....they were flighty because they weren't right. Changing back to Nanos that were a touch slower...280 vs 274...the benifits were still there but they combo was more forgiving. 

So you want a #...when I actually shoot more then 1 time every two weeks.....I shoot an avg half of about a 268. With slower ACCs I shoot in the 258-260 half avg range. 

When I first started shooting field I was shooting a slower combo....and was shooting right around 500 avg. Changing my speed up to the 270 range gave me a jump to the 520 range. A lot of practice produced my PB of a 542 with that faster setup.....I shot in the 530 for the rest of the summer.:wink:

I have all the cards from this year.....they aren't marked in a way that anyone else would be able to tell anything. But I know which setups I shot and where I was practice wise and what I was working on...all of my low scores where shot with a slower setup. 

Plan and simple if you are shooting the 50 and your shot breaks and your pin isn't in that X...an arrow flying 250 isn't going to catch the bottom of the dot.....one flying 270 will. PERIOD.

You do what you want....I know what works for me....and I know what the trajectory says a faster arrow will do.

It's like Hinky said to me...."he object in field is to shoot spots." If a faster more stable arrow will gain me 5 points a round that a slower one won't....then I will take the faster arrow every time.

Funny thing is....of all the TOP field shooters in the country.....I don't think any of them are shooting under 260-265 fps.:wink: and I damn sure know that not one of the people I know that shoot over a 530 avg are shooting 235 fps. But if that is the speed/setup you score best with or think you do....then have fun. Because I go to shoot for ME....so I do what works for ME. I can only tell you why I do what I do and make suggestions. It's up to you from that point to make a choice........

but if what I was doing wasn't really producing the results I wanted.....I sure as heck wouldn't keep doing it:zip:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

jjgsp said:


> Try a Gold Tip ultra lite pro 500's ----cut to 26.25 with 1.8 vanes, pin nocks and a tip of 60 or 80 grain. Personnally I would go with the 80 gr tips. should get 248 to 265. They are relativey thin and very straight .001.



If you keep it 50# and under...the UL Pro 600's are the choice I'd go with, and DID go with...but I used a 100 grain point in them. They hold the line really well, and the forward pile keeps them going down-range. Match and specification wise, they are the same specs in straightness and weight as the ACC, but at a way lower cost. If you get over 50# peak weight, then go for the ULPro 500's...they aren't that much heavier anyways...and down as low as 51#, I can get those to group the same as the ULPro 600's do.

Just make absolutely sure that the shop has NOT opened the package and just stuck them into the bin...if they have, then the integrity and weight match of the entire bin has been lost, and you will have to weigh every single shaft in the bin to find a dozen match. If you get them in a complete package....make sure you keep the bar-code on the package. There is a hand-written 3-digit number that is IMPORTANT...that is the weight code for that dozen shafts, full length. It is used the next time you order arrows...so that they can get a "weight match" for you!

If the shop has mixed the arrows and won't let you weigh them up....go to another shop that will.

Now, for this "speed gets you points issue" and insinuating that without 260, 270, or 280 fps you CANNOT shoot high scores...to this I say, "ABSOLUTE BALONEY! PRACTICE is the key, NOT speed.

I shot ALL of my PB field and hunter scores, and animal scores with a bow shooting aluminum arrows and a whopping 221 fps! My PB field wa 556 and my PB hunter was 557....and I should have had 560's...but for some complacent bone-headed mistakes made. I was averaging the middle 550's for a period of about 3-4 years with this "slow" set-up. Terry Ragsdale shot the first-ever perfect 560 hunter with a bow that was NOT shooting over 230 fps, without a palm-pilot, clinometer, computer generated site tape, and "slam cams"! He did it via shooting his marks in and PRACTICE; he didn't BUY those scores...he shot them.

You do NOT NEED SPEED to shoot high scores on a field course....I think you will find few people on the tops of the leaderboard sshooting the NFAA max speed limit of 280....you'll most likely find them in the "wannabee" part of the boards...still trying to buy everything they can to score well, and forgetting about practice, experience, and paying attention out on the course to what is going on around them. Straight and to the point..>PRACTICE! 

field14:darkbeer::tongue:


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Thank you for addressing the original question field14.
At this point, I've decided that if I purchase anything, it'll probably be 60# limbs for the bow.
As I normally shoot 52-55#'s, I can use the same arrows for more than 1 bow.

And as for speed helping scores ...
Surely everyone knows how important proper practice is.
However, even with practice, I am not "world championship material" by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm just an Average Joe who likes to shoot archery.
Field has always been my favorite. And I'm a bit partial to the 900 round as well.

Let me tell you a bit about my experiences thus far.
I have my own range, 14 targets and I do practice quite often.
This year is my first back in archery since like '95 or '96.
The aforementioned Katera XL is somewhere around 270 +/- fps.
With this bow I normally shoot 265 +/- a couple on the half. (Had a 272 going just a few weeks back and choked on the 25 & 30 yarders! )

The Pro Elite, as mentioned earlier, is 243 +/- fps. (Same arrows)
The best I've been able to muster on a half thus far is a mere 250. (+/- 1 or 2. I can't remember for sure.)
And this is on my own range!

The PE is in fact now shooting as it should.
Groups are fine, and I finally got it balanced well enough that it holds steady.
There is always the possibility that the bow just isn't gonna "fit" me or my style of shooting. Not every bow "fits" every archer.
I'm simply trying to exhaust all possibilities before I reach that conclusion.

In closing ...
There is a single line in my original post that apparently has gone unnoticed by some ...
IMO, this game is more a mental thing than one of physical proportions.
If one has doubts, for WHATEVER reason in his/her equipment, he/she will NEVER shoot what they might actually be capable of accomplishing.

P.S.
I really wasn't trying to sound like an ***** toward you Bees.
I'm simply not as politically correct as is sometimes warranted.
I like to tell my wife it's done for "technical clarity" and she was aware of it when she married me.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

JMJ said:


> Thank you for addressing the original question field14.
> At this point, I've decided that if I purchase anything, it'll probably be 60# limbs for the bow.
> As I normally shoot 52-55#'s, I can use the same arrows for more than 1 bow.
> And as for speed helping scores ...
> ...



In this case, then I would recommend the UL Pro 500's and perhaps 100 grain points, or at the minimum, 80 grainers. 

More MENTAL than anything, absolutely correct. ANY doubt during any round or during a shot sequence...and you just got yourself a "miss"...at max a "4"...and maybe even worse! If you don't have confidence in your equipment or YOURSELF....you are a gonner. Of course over-confidence is a score robber too! Cannot get complacent at any time during any field, hunter, animal, or 900 round. There are no "gimmees" you EARN every point you get...and cannot BUY them for any price...although many think that today's scores are mail-order specialties or are automatic if they buy this or that gimmick.:tongue::wink:

field14


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

*The agony of defeat ...*

I reckon for now I'm gonna just concede to the fact that I can't shoot this bow. 
Shot another half yesterday evening and barely squeaked out a 253.

I've now come to the conclusion that speed ain't gonna help it.
If speed were the answer, logic says that most misses would have been low.
While there were some low shots that a bit of speed would have helped, most were left and right.
I don't know what the heck I'm doing, (or not doing), but rather than stress about it, or spend more money trying to fix it, I'm just gonna go back to what works.

Maybe I'll give the PE another try at a later date ...
Or maybe the thing will show up in the classifieds again. (The most likely option!)


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> I reckon for now I'm gonna just concede to the fact that I can't shoot this bow.
> Shot another half yesterday evening and barely squeaked out a 253.
> 
> I've now come to the conclusion that speed ain't gonna help it.
> ...


Did you set up for a level bubble? and is your bubble level when your shot breaks? If my bubble isn't level when the shot breaks I have left, right issues.

With a level bubble my arrow has a chance of holding the 5 ring, without a level bubble my arrow has no chance of holding the 5 ring.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Yes ... bubble is set.
During my shot routine, the step immediately following anchor is level the bubble.
After that, aiming commences.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> Yes ... bubble is set.
> During my shot routine, the step immediately following anchor is level the bubble.
> After that, aiming commences.


Good, now is it level when the shot breaks? I had to learn to watch the bubble and the aiming device too and what I found was the bubble was level and then it wasn't level when I got occupied with aiming. I thought it was level but the actual truth is I wasn't paying attention to it and I had no idea where it was when it mattered ,when the shot breaks. Once I learned how to keep it level thoughout the whole shot sequence the left and rights got better and the score got better.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Yes ... level throughout the shot.
I just found the problem .... 34" stabilizer vs. 13" took care of the lefts and rights.
Must be something happening at instant of release.

Now I'm back to the speed thing again. dooohhhh
At that slow speed, frankly it's too much dang trouble to account for cut shots.
Yea I know ... it was done that way for many years. But what choice did they have?
We now have other options .... why work more than we have to?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JMJ said:


> Yes ... level throughout the shot.
> I just found the problem .... 34" stabilizer vs. 13" took care of the lefts and rights.
> Must be something happening at instant of release.
> 
> ...


much more than you realize I would think. 

what ever floats your boat, I have been shooting what the archers plus ranger finder says and so far so good. how much ya want for that slow ass Pro Elite?? what cam is on it? 

Quite frankely with a faster bow for me it meant higher draw weight, higher holding weight and arrows deeper in the targets. so I had to work harder to draw the bow expend more effort to hold it steady and then work harder to pull the arrows out of the target.

how I veiw your obsseion with speed is your useing it to cover up the real problem, which might work up to a point.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

field14 said:


> Now, for this "speed gets you points issue" and insinuating that without 260, 270, or 280 fps you CANNOT shoot high scores...to this I say, "ABSOLUTE BALONEY! PRACTICE is the key, NOT speed.
> 
> I shot ALL of my PB field and hunter scores, and animal scores with a bow shooting aluminum arrows and a whopping 221 fps! My PB field wa 556 and my PB hunter was 557....and I should have had 560's...but for some complacent bone-headed mistakes made. I was averaging the middle 550's for a period of about 3-4 years with this "slow" set-up. Terry Ragsdale shot the first-ever perfect 560 hunter with a bow that was NOT shooting over 230 fps, without a palm-pilot, clinometer, computer generated site tape, and "slam cams"! He did it via shooting his marks in and PRACTICE; he didn't BUY those scores...he shot them.
> 
> ...


WHo says you can't shoot high scores without shooting 260...270...or 280 I sure didn't say that.....I said I prefer and score better. There is a difference.:wink:

Comparing how it was done back in the day to what is done now......come on. You had no choices then as far as shooting faster. SO honestly that is just silly. On top of that comparing someone that is just your normal avg everyday archer to Terry is just plain silly. Seriously....would you compare the avg 20 handicap golfer to Tiger or Jack Let's compare Prag to Broadwater while we are at it.

I am not saying to shoot 280 and push the speed limit....never have. I also haven't said that the top guys do either. But I can promise you....that you may be better off talking to or shooting with the top field shooters of TODAY.....and after shooting with 3 of the top 4 mens PRO finishers and the AMFS Champ from this year. I can promise you that all of them are shooting OVER 260. 

It's the nature of todays equipment....should I turn down my draw weight from 57-59 lbs (which is VERY easy for me to draw and doesn't wear me down.... loose my holding weight and not be comfortable or be able to shoot the way I can....also shoot a super stiff arrow that doesn't spine right just so I can get a slower speed? Because right now....my arrows are flying at 274....with my setup on 59 lbs with a 345 grain arrow.....no it's not setup for speed. The arrows are spined a little on the stiff side.....and actually I am changing to the next spine down....because they shoot better for my setup....the next ones down that would SLOW me down don't shoot as good from my setup. 

That is just where it ended up. The bow is 40" long with an 8.75" brace......so it's not a speed bow by any stretch of the imagination....it's just 2008...not 1978.


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## RchurE (Mar 20, 2007)

JMJ said:


> Yes ... level throughout the shot.
> I just found the problem .... 34" stabilizer vs. 13" took care of the lefts and rights.
> Must be something happening at instant of release.
> 
> ...


I'm reluctant to reply again here because I and others have gotten a little chastised for not giving the answers you want to hear but I'll offer it up anyway. Take it for what you will.

The longer stabilizer didn't fix the problem, it just covered it up temporarily. Something that a lot of people overlook when changing back and forth bows is string angle. You've been shooting a shorter bow and you've gotten used to that string angle. The angle on the shorter bow is allowing you to get your hand into your face easier because the string is further away. Now you're shooting a long, deflexed bow and the string angle is very shallow and it's harder to get that same anchor while finding the spot for the string to touch your nose or face or whatever you use. It's hard to notice if you're not "feeling" for it but I'd just about bet all my bows that it's happening. That's causing you to float in your peep whether you are seeing it or not. That will cause you left and rights all day long. 

The only other thing I can think of is your grip. Everybody falls in love with the Elite series grips but just because you love 'em don't mean you don't have to learn to hold it and get used to it. The bottom line is that bow is going to reapeat its actions every single time, no matter what. If you're missing it's because of something you're not repeating every single time. Assuming your aim is on and release execution is good then it's in your peep or your grip. 

If you'll just spend some string time with that bow and not give up on it you'll find it's a dream to shoot. I ran into a similar problem when I got my PE but now my two shorter bows are the ones I feel strange shooting.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

I agree RchurE.
It is in fact something I'm doing inconsistently.
And it has something to do with the grip, not the peep.

I'll probably shoot the bow a bit more in time.
But in the long run, I won't change me to fit the bow ... I'll change bows to fit me instead.


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

JMJ said:


> . . .I won't change me to fit the bow ... I'll change bows to fit me instead . . .


I couldn't agree more.

There are too many very nice options available to the modern archer.

For you to TRY to make something that you are obviously uncomfortable with work would be futile. Not that the other equipment is bad. . .quite the contrary. . .it just doesn't match your shooting style and comfort level. I think you gave it a fair trial. But if that dog won't hunt for ya- you gotta cut 'er loose (as my friend from Alabama always says).

I say- if you feel comfortable shooting it, and you can group on the X, then it doesn't matter what you are shooting or how you are shooting it.


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## RchurE (Mar 20, 2007)

JMJ said:


> I agree RchurE.
> It is in fact something I'm doing inconsistently.
> And it has something to do with the grip, not the peep.
> 
> ...





WrongdayJ said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> There are too many very nice options available to the modern archer.
> 
> ...


I kinda agree with what both of you are saying. If the bow don't work for ya then it don't work, plain and simple. I'm just saying be sure and give it a fair shot. I was in the same spot you're in a little over a year ago with my Ultra Elite. I was ready to cut strings and lose my hind end on it because something just wasn't right. I talked myself into giving it a fair shake and I couldn't be happier that I did. 

I didn't have to "change myself" to suit the bow, I just had to get to know it. As you probably have experienced in archery before some things you just know when you change to them they are a fit for you, other things you know right away that they aren't, and there's a few things that you'll never know because you made a judgement very early. I'm just trying to encourage you not to judge too early with that bow because it is very forgiving and when you figure out that grip it is the easiest to repeat in my opinion. 

I still have the UE and have since added the PE and I've shot many bows but can't repeat as well as I can with these. I did have a period of adjustment with my PE too when I got it because it had been a year or so since I had shot such a long bow with such a shallow string angle. For me though it was the peep, not the grip. Ultimately it's your deal, shoot what you like and what feels the best. I just think that once you find that happy place with that bow that arrow that would have been just out with that Katera and I mean just out on that questionable shot at 65 yards one day will be a jarlicker for ya instead.

That's all.


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## robicon (Apr 18, 2008)

JMJ said:


> I agree RchurE.
> It is in fact something I'm doing inconsistently.
> And it has something to do with the grip, not the peep.
> 
> ...


After reading this thread, it brought to mind a saying a crazy (and fairly ugly) old field archer once told me. "Archery is 90% mental and 10% equipment".

Sounds to me as if that 10% is costing you points. Stabilizer is just a band-aid. 

Fix the grip man, otherwise I'll outshoot you this weekend!


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

robicon said:


> After reading this thread, it brought to mind a saying a crazy (and fairly ugly) old field archer once told me. "Archery is 90% mental and 10% equipment".
> 
> Sounds to me as if that 10% is costing you points. Stabilizer is just a band-aid.
> 
> Fix the grip man, otherwise I'll outshoot you this weekend!


HA!! Careful my friend ...
I may have to bring out that old Jennings Carbon XLRS and show you how we did it "back in the day."


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