# tuning bars



## N7709K

bar length- this is a big part of getting a setup that works well for all applications and outlets. Longer bars(mains) take less weight- but a very light setup isnt always the best option. 1oz on a 33" main won't give any better of a float over 4oz on a 24" bar; but 4oz and a shorter bar will move less in the wind and will sit better in pressure situations. 

starting out I go 33" and 15" for the majority of rigs- lighter draw weight shooters start a 30 or 27" mains, shorter dl shooter also start at shorter lengths for the main. depending on the bow and where rear bars are being mounted shorter dl shooters may need to go to 12" back bar(s). for parallel limbed rigs a little shorter bars - or - heavier weighted bars will work better IF the holding weight is also there. for more standup limbs you can get away with much more. riser geometry matters as well, more reflexed of a riser and the shorter the main you want to run; deflexed the longer you can run before it becomes too long and too light. Bars are very easy to cut down and trim for custom fit and the best combination for ONE rig and your shot for that ONE rig. 

Bar Location- riser geometry comes into play here as well; reflexed tend to play nicer with bars mounted or ran lower, deflexed you have options depending on your shot style and personality as a shooter.









the lower weight stack is one of the places i have run a back bar off of the VE+ platform- talked to Jesse after vegas and ran almost an identical setup a while. Running the bars lower shifts the CoG towards the lower pocket; with the CoG and the majority of weight below the pivot point influencing the bow becomes harder. When the dot is in the middle it doesn't want to leave as much, BUT when it does it takes more to put it back in the middle. 

Running the back bar off the stab bushing won't hold as tight... BUT you have more options and adjustments on how you run the bar, the overall distance your dot moves is less, and the setup aims faster. For me I went from holding solidly on inner 10 with a jump to big 9 to never leaving big 10(before DL was adjusted). I do run weight lower on the riser- it doesn't do anything more than put weight lower down and shift the CoG... I don't recommend it for all shooters and if i do its not starting at 4oz.

setting up bars- take what ever number you think you wanna run for weight, double it, and then order that number as bare minimum. I have 59oz between the 35oz on my PCE XL and the 24oz on my VE+; i have 10-12oz between singles and 4stacks in my release pouch for adjusting along the way and i have the 46oz pictured... I also have another 12-15oz that is spread out through the shooters i've come in contact with that needed an extra oz or two for the day. ASW is a very solid option for awesome weights without breaking the bank- doesn't really what you run for weight, but you need to have room to add or take off and oz or two on the line.









now that you have your mountain of weights start with 4oz out front and 6oz off the back(even split or 2:1 for two backs favoring the opposite side as the sight). shoot a few at 20yds on a vegas face- not blue face. once you have a group developed work weight on the main bringing it into a vertical string. after groups are stringing vertically work weight on the back to bring your dot into a steady float on inner 10. 

Now the actual tuning starts- If you float is slow and sweeping, never stopping but its slow and predictable you have two things to look at 1)Holding weight is not enough for the mass weight or 2)Draw length is too long. Start with DL adjustments- for hoyts put 1.5-2 twists into the string and check to see if the float slowed and tightened up. If it did repeat with another 1.5-2 twists (depending on who makes the strings i don't like making large DL changes through string lengths, after 5-6 twists i switch to cables adjustments. I'll put in more than i need so i can undo what i did to the string and gain that room to fine adjust as i proceed). If the issue is mass weight based the shooter can increase holding weight or remove weight in the same ratio that the bow is holding well in - if i'm running 5 oz out front and 10oz on the back a single oz would be taken off the main and two oz would be taken off the backs. 

If after weighting the bars you find your float is holding very very tight on inner 10 but seems jittery and takes big jumps into big 9 or worse then 1)your DL is short or 2)mass weight is too light(mass weight being too light is very uncommon, if your DL is short you have more weight you can add and not degrade weight sight picture. At 30lbs of holding weigh you can get the bow too heavy for a short DL). again start with DL adjustments; take 1.5-2 twists out of the string and check for improvement in float making the needed adjustments as necessary until the float is staying on inner 10.

Tuning hold and float- now that the bars are somewhat setup and DL is much closer to where it needs to be you can start tuning bars. I know roughly where my bars will end up so I start with a slight angle down on the back bar and set it out 10deg to start. At this point in the process shoot a game or three and get a feel for how the setup is shooting- again use vegas faces. after the games look at the targets and find the patterns in the groups and how that pattern correlates to your float. make small adjustments, small --like a deg at a time type small-- to the angle out on the back bar. Your hold will get better, level off(when it starts to level off pay attention to the bubble in your scope) and then fall off. Return to where it leveled off and shoot a couple games, maybe give it a week or so(this is where your proficiency as a shooter comes in). at this point peep adjustments, your shot and shot style, loop length, cam rotation and sync, rest position and tune on the arrows all get a quick once over- if your peep height is off you won't get bars tuned how they need to be. 

after say a week add one oz to the main- if things become better, stay with that extra oz and shoot for another week or two. If float opens up and scores go down take the oz off OR make the changes that your float is hinting at. If after a month nothing has changed, go to 50m or 70m and get a feel for float and hold. if you never leave 10 at 50m and aren't leaving inner 10 at 18m(talking about good shots at this point...) then its time to move on. 

if you are on the upper end of things there are more aspects to getting your setup shooting for you and making a setup work with your shot... or work for the particular game at hand. If you are working towards the upper end you will find that the process evolves as you progress as a shooter- what it takes for you to shoot a 10 now will change as your game changes; how you tune will also change BUT the changes need to come as dictated by your level of proficiency.


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## Mahly

Phenomenal post!
This is a little different than what I have been doing... Just more detailed and logical steps.
I am sure to try this procedure out!!!


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## Honeymonster

2:1 ratio for the weight distribution seems a bit too much generalisation.
depending on the angles and length of the back bar the effect of the weight varies dramatically.


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## ron w

the equation for dynamic equilibrium of leverage is "weight squared times difference in length". so 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar would have to be 4 times 4 oz. times 18 (the difference in length between a 30 inch bar and a 12 inch bar), or 12.8 lbs !. 
sounds crazy, I know.... but math doesn't lie....a 12 inch bar takes 12.8 lbs. of weight to do the same dynamic work that 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar does !. that length is a great lever against movement !.
that is why I say that hunting bars do no damping of movement as they are presently used. their purpose is simply to add mass to the entire bow as a unit, because a heavier object is harder to move than a light one. and to get the same damping out of a 12 inch bar, that you get out of a 30 inch bar with 4 oz., would take that much weight on the 12 inch bar.


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## spicman

thanks for the great post.


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## Honeymonster

ron w said:


> the equation for dynamic equilibrium of leverage is "weight squared times difference in length". so 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar would have to be 4 times 4 oz. times 18 (the difference in length between a 30 inch bar and a 12 inch bar), or 12.8 lbs !.
> sounds crazy, I know.... but math doesn't lie....a 12 inch bar takes 12.8 lbs. of weight to do the same dynamic work that 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar does !. that length is a great lever against movement !.
> that is why I say that hunting bars do no damping of movement as they are presently used. their purpose is simply to add mass to the entire bow as a unit, because a heavier object is harder to move than a light one. and to get the same damping out of a 12 inch bar, that you get out of a 30 inch bar with 4 oz., would take that much weight on the 12 inch bar.


The "squared" is an interesting aspect. 
I would have used the simple "weight times length" equation to calculate the leverage.
Can you explain the "dynamic work" more detailed?


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## SonnyThomas

Seems you are playing with a lot weight. How long is the front stab and how much weight on the end? I would ask the same for the back bar (s). And then the real question, how stiff are the stab and back bars? 

Weights on the riser...effect how? 

 Eating, drinking, lap top, bow..... I don't know about you N7990K. Well, at least you have your finger sling taped in place so you can find it


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## N7709K

Right now I'm running premier plus bars- 33" main with a 15" back... Main has been beaten up a little so it's not as good as it was. I've played with a bunch of bars and I have the ones I like and the ones I don't; right now my favorite set of bars isn't offered in long enough lengths.

I'm not a fan of the formula- I don't shoot a passive shot so it takes weight on my bars to get the dot to sit


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## montigre

Nice write up, Jacob!!


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## ron w

as the lever gets longer it's effectual resistance to being moved or disturbed increases exponentially, as the square of the weight. the simple leverage is weight times length but the force needed to move the weight at the end of the longer lever increases exponentially.
simple leverage has a force moving a weight at the mechanical advantage of the length between pivot and force, this is different than a force moving a weight a weight from the pivot, as a bow does when it moves the weight at the end of a stab.
one equation (simple leverage) has a force acting on a pivot through the mechanical advantage of the bar's length,....no weight to be moved involved, the other has a force acting on the weight, against the mechanical advantage of a long bar. one (simple leverage) is proportional,...the longer the bar, the more the leverage,...the higher the force, the more the leverage. the other is inverse, but we are going from long to short (which is already inverse), so the equation is a proportionally expressed. if we were to go from short to long, then an inverse would be expressed, because the weight can be reduced to produce the same work.
the "dynamic work" is simply the amount of force that it takes to displace the weight at the end of the rod's length. it takes more work (force, radial moment, torque...call it what you want)) to move the weight on a long rod than it does on a short rod. so that equation has to expressed proportionally.


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## montigre

ron w said:


> as the lever gets longer it's effectual resistance to being moved or disturbed increases exponentially, as the square of the weight. the simple leverage is weight times length but the force needed to move the weight at the end of the longer lever increases exponentially.
> simple leverage has a force moving a weight at the mechanical advantage of the length between pivot and force, this is different than a force moving a weight a weight from the pivot, as a bow does when it moves the weight at the end of a stab.
> one equation (simple leverage) has a force acting on a pivot through the mechanical advantage of the bar's length,....no weight to be moved involved, the other has a force acting on the weight, against the mechanical advantage of a long bar. one (simple leverage) is proportional,...the longer the bar, the more the leverage,...the higher the force, the more the leverage. the other is inverse, but we are going from long to short (which is already inverse), so the equation is a proportionally expressed. if we were to go from short to long, then an inverse would be expressed, because the weight can be reduced to produce the same work.
> the "dynamic work" is simply the amount of force that it takes to displace the weight at the end of the rod's length. it takes more work (force, radial moment, torque...call it what you want)) to move the weight on a long rod than it does on a short rod. so that equation has to expressed proportionally.


You engineers crack me up...lol!!


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## SonnyThomas

Which one will make you grunt more?


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## ron w

montigre said:


> You engineers crack me up...lol!!


 they crack me up ,too.....i'm not an engineer !. 
i'm a retired slug that swung a hammer and cut 2x4's, for 30 years and actually did my math homework back in high school. pretty brainless work, so I had allot of time to think about stuff.


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## Rick!

ron w said:


> the equation for dynamic equilibrium of leverage is "weight squared times difference in length". so 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar would have to be 4 times 4 oz. times 18 (the difference in length between a 30 inch bar and a 12 inch bar), or 12.8 lbs !.
> sounds crazy, I know.... but math doesn't lie....a 12 inch bar takes 12.8 lbs. of weight to do the same dynamic work that 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar does !. that length is a great lever against movement !.
> that is why I say that hunting bars do no damping of movement as they are presently used. their purpose is simply to add mass to the entire bow as a unit, because a heavier object is harder to move than a light one. and to get the same damping out of a 12 inch bar, that you get out of a 30 inch bar with 4 oz., would take that much weight on the 12 inch bar.


Help me out a little. I know a little about fizzics but nothing I've ever seen or used has a mass squared. Inertia, on other hand, is typically acted upon by an acceleration to generate a force (linear) or a moment, aka torque (rotational). Depending on the type of inertia, mass is multiplied by a length squared or length^4.


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## SonnyThomas

Tuning bars, all, is more profound than most want to believe or at least read of. Rotation, force, balance, make bow do what you want thing.

Back in my documents of Dec, 2006 or 2007 - shows I modified it in 2009. So I searched it out - era 1996 and Ellison. Many links, but found one that had all of Ellison's files.

www.thearcher.com - see stab4a4.pdf (only 19 pages).


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## ron w

rick, work it out with some real numbers and see if it makes sense.


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## jrdrees

This is my kind of read! Expanding the mind...


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## bill_collector

Tagged for later


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## SonnyThomas

Had to go through it again - too many steps if just the way I had it above. http://www.thearcher.com/resourceCentre/itemDetails.cfm?itemId=51


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## erdman41

ron w said:


> the equation for dynamic equilibrium of leverage is "weight squared times difference in length". so 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar would have to be 4 times 4 oz. times 18 (the difference in length between a 30 inch bar and a 12 inch bar), or 12.8 lbs !.
> sounds crazy, I know.... but math doesn't lie....a 12 inch bar takes 12.8 lbs. of weight to do the same dynamic work that 4 oz. on a 30 inch bar does !. that length is a great lever against movement !.
> that is why I say that hunting bars do no damping of movement as they are presently used. their purpose is simply to add mass to the entire bow as a unit, because a heavier object is harder to move than a light one. and to get the same damping out of a 12 inch bar, that you get out of a 30 inch bar with 4 oz., would take that much weight on the 12 inch bar.


Assuming that formula is correct it works out to 128 oz which is 8 pounds.

Since I have 16 oz on a 34" bar I would then need 352#'s on a 12" bar? Which makes me call into question the formula all together.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> Assuming that formula is correct it works out to 128 oz which is 8 pounds.
> 
> Since I have 16 oz on a 34" bar I would then need 352#'s on a 12" bar? Which makes me call into question the formula all together.


Using the "generalization formula; 16 oz. and 34" front stab;
length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"

Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
34" Front bar length times weight of 16 ounces = 544
544 / 12" rear bar length = 45.3 ounces for the rear bar.

If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars.
.................

Well, I did the "times" stuff and got 352 pounds.....???????????


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## erdman41

SonnyThomas said:


> Using the "generalization formula; 16 oz. and 34" front stab;
> length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"
> 
> Then:
> "X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.
> 
> example:
> 34" Front bar length times weight of 16 ounces = 544
> 544 / 12" rear bar length = 45.3 ounces for the rear bar.
> 
> If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars.
> .................
> 
> Well, I did the "times" stuff and got 352 pounds.....???????????


That's the problem with generalized formulas. I've tried them and until you put in the work experimenting a lot you will never know your true potential. 

I have a single 15" back bar with 12 or 13 oz on it. PCEXL. Long ways away from general formula.


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## N7709K

I'm running less out back than out front on my pce Xl... Formula won't get you that


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## nuts&bolts

Rick! said:


> Help me out a little. I know a little about fizzics but nothing I've ever seen or used has a mass squared. Inertia, on other hand, is typically acted upon by an acceleration to generate a force (linear) or a moment, aka torque (rotational). Depending on the type of inertia, mass is multiplied by a length squared or length^4.


Moment of Inertia.
I = (mass) x (radius) x (radius)

I concur.

distance squared,
not mass squared.


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## Rick!

ron w said:


> rick, work it out with some real numbers and see if it makes sense.


Sonny's link is to Mr. Ellison's plain language explanations about the topic at hand. He properly describes the distance squared relationship. Unfortunately, there are no formulas to view. 

This link covers physics basics. 
http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/physics/mechanics/forces/newton/mightyFEqMA/mightyFEqMA.html

Dynamic equilibrium is otherwise known as "steady state." Steady state is when an object is motion is not accelerating or decelerating. Steady state without motion is "static equilibrium." 

In the end, what we are all yearning for is a static moment balance at full draw that has the highest inertia we can install that minimizes the response (float shape, size) when we perturb the system.

I've learned a bunch from this thread and I appreciate its contributors.


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## nuts&bolts

erdman41 said:


> That's the problem with generalized formulas. I've tried them and until you put in the work experimenting a lot you will never know your true potential.
> 
> I have a single 15" back bar with 12 or 13 oz on it. PCEXL. Long ways away from general formula.


Moment of Inertia 
Equivalence between MOI for FRONT STICK
and
MOI for REAR STICK.

FRONT STICK = 34 inches
FRONT stick weight = 16 ounces
*FRONT stick MOI = length x weight x weight = 5776 inch-ounces squared.*
This is the RESISTANCE POWER for the front stick, when you try to wag the front stick side to side, or up to down.

SIDE STICK = 12 inches.
HOW much weight do we need, to make the SIDE STICK, have the SAME amount of RESISTANCE POWER, for wagging side to side, or up to down?

Take 5776 inch-ounces squared.
and divide by 12-inches.

*You get 21.93931 OUNCES of weight for the 12-inch SIDE STICK
to try to get MOI equivalence, for 16 ounces on the 34-inch LONG FRONT stick.*

So,
try 16 ounces on the end of the 34-inch FRONT STICK
and
try 22 ounces for the end of the 12-inch FRONT STICK,
if you care about MOI equivalence.


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## nuts&bolts

Rick! said:


> Sonny's link is to Mr. Ellison's plain language explanations about the topic at hand. He properly describes the distance squared relationship. Unfortunately, there are no formulas to view.
> 
> This link covers physics basics.
> http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/physics/mechanics/forces/newton/mightyFEqMA/mightyFEqMA.html
> 
> Dynamic equilibrium is otherwise known as "steady state." Steady state is when an object is motion is not accelerating or decelerating. Steady state without motion is "static equilibrium."
> 
> In the end, what we are all yearning for is a static moment balance at full draw that has the highest inertia we can install that minimizes the response (float shape, size) when we perturb the system.
> 
> I've learned a bunch from this thread and I appreciate its contributors.


Static moment balance is ONE THEORY.

I do not teach Static Moment balance.
Just ask erdman41.

I teach an OUT of balance, moment couple theory
and applied results principle.

It works, if you know how to work it.


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## N7709K

But having the bars "balanced" equally for MOI resistance hints to zero shooter input and bias induced into the bow. Keeping the bow statically "balanced" at full draw doesn't allow for both halves to be engaged and for the dynamic movement during the shot. There should be an imbalance in the MOI playing into the shooters shot... At least if you want the most from your setup


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> I'm running less out back than out front on my pce Xl... Formula won't get you that


Then I'm guessing with the standard PCE, you'd have to run a little more weight out back than up front to accommodate the slight difference in bow geometry between the two similar models and even more so with PCE FX. Would this assumption be correct?


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## N7709K

Not as much up front but still more up front that predicessors due to the lowered grip position


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## montigre

Thanks. I wondered how the lowered grip would change things.


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## SonnyThomas

Reading it wrong, all put together? Seems it's front 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 rear for average start, no matter the weight. Weight established then the moving around of weights, usually rear, to find that float for that person, not the bow....


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## bigHUN

montigre said:


> ... I wondered how the lowered grip would change things...


Changes a lot....not just your/my grip but the designed riser and built in grip...
My DST40, I was using a doinker v-bar 2" side drop (lowered the COG so I didn't had to take care of the plumb at all) and I had my resting point almost sitting on the shelf (way below berger hole, only to keep a bare minimum clearance between fletching and the riser shelf).
My DST38 came with a nocking point designed - centered between ATA so is the resting point there now, meaning the riser -grip is lowered below and the v-bar mount is almost 2/3rd down in the riser.
Weighting the stabilizers between two bows is very different, I had my thread in the OK subforum not long time ago about the effects. And btw, this why I can balance the bow F-R and L-R very close to neutral, maybe a single washer up front is a winner with a float, also the L rear bar is about 2-3 degree (only) more open then the R bar with same amount of weight on both.
Not sure yet how this would work for indoor spots but for outdoor long ranges I am ready to go next weekend to ON big shot with it.


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## Ned250

SonnyThomas said:


> Had to go through it again - too many steps if just the way I had it above. http://www.thearcher.com/resourceCentre/itemDetails.cfm?itemId=51


Excellent link, Sonny.


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## SonnyThomas

Ned250 said:


> Excellent link, Sonny.


Thank you. I try and right now Try is about all I can do. Fell on bow shoulder about month ago and getting worse. Everything mobile, same clunk it's always had, sore around shoulder blade from bottom to halfway up, sore in ball/socket, sore muscle over top of shoulder, sore down the back of the upper arm and bicep sore and swollen today - tennis ball size lump not even flexing to show muscle. Probably have to whip Godzilla with my right arm and then show him my left arm and he might wet the ground. Non life threating, doctor's appointment is near a month off. Ought just go to emergency and claim I just did it....


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## jrdrees

Resistance to rotational inertia on all axes is my goal, also to have my shot fire when the pin is on the dot.... all I ask.


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## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> Reading it wrong, all put together? Seems it's front 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 rear for average start, no matter the weight. Weight established then the moving around of weights, usually rear, to find that float for that person, not the bow....


My personal experience places the focus of the set up on both the bow and the shooter. Yes, you have to establish the desired float for the shooter, but the bow's geometry dictates how that weight will likely need to be distributed as a starting point. My old Contender Elite, liked a long rod and lot of weight up front and very little behind with a shorter side bar running almost straight back. But on my Alphas, I have to run very little weight up front on a short rod and need to load up the back and run a longer side bar very low to get a similar float pattern. 

I'm a passive shooter with lower DW and HW, so my weight to bar length ratios, needed overall mass weight, and bar angles will be quite different than someone who shoots a more aggressive shot and can shoot a higher DW and HW. Admittedly, I have not tried using a true v bar set up as I have been able to achieve acceptable results with just the single side bar, but I did read BigHun's post in the OK forum about how he set up his v bar system with interest. That info has been placed in my "archery tool box" for future use if needed.


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## Reverend

In for the master class...


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## Rick!

N7709K said:


> But having the bars "balanced" equally for MOI resistance hints to zero shooter input and bias induced into the bow. Keeping the bow statically "balanced" at full draw doesn't allow for both halves to be engaged and for the dynamic movement during the shot. There should be an imbalance in the MOI playing into the shooters shot... At least if you want the most from your setup


There has to be shooter input as the "third" moment is holding weight times the vertical distance between between your grip contact point and nock. Since the lever arm is very short, it takes a relatively large "force" change this moment; i.e., to complement an additional ounce or two on the front stab. This helps explain the PCE grip height effect. If there isn't a fundamental balance at full draw, then bow movement at full draw is inevitable.

Below is the fundamental free body diagram at full draw for the "in-plane" moments.



Alan, I'm still researching where in physics that mass squared is used - still haven't found it... Also, power is the rate of work, not sure how length * mass^2 = power. If you could expand on your concepts a bit we could understand them better.


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## Padgett

Jacob, thanks for the great write up on your method to get set up. Your write up is exactly why I come here to archery talk because it uses a lot of common sense and it allows a guy to feel confident that he can go out and in a week or so make a big difference in his shooting.


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## Reverend

Gabriel Badenhorst of South Africa...
Please explain...


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## nuts&bolts

Rick! said:


> There has to be shooter input as the "third" moment is holding weight times the vertical distance between between your grip contact point and nock. Since the lever arm is very short, it takes a relatively large "force" change this moment; i.e., to complement an additional ounce or two on the front stab. This helps explain the PCE grip height effect. If there isn't a fundamental balance at full draw, then bow movement at full draw is inevitable.
> 
> Below is the fundamental free body diagram at full draw for the "in-plane" moments.
> 
> 
> 
> Alan, I'm still researching where in physics that mass squared is used - still haven't found it... Also, power is the rate of work, not sure how length * mass^2 = power. If you could expand on your concepts a bit we could understand them better.


Bow in balance is not the goal,
because, 
as you stated, the bow at full draw, the shooter holding the bow say 2-3 lbs HIGHER than holding weight,
we have a sling shot here.

When the arrow is released,
the bow arm, the bow, the front stabilizer...the FORWARDS half of the system, recoils FORWARDS.

The release forearm, release side upper arm,
RECOILS backwards.

So, we have a dynamic system....moving parts of the system.

Think of a semi-auto rifle.

BULLET moves FORWARDS (like the bow arm, the bow, the front stabilizer, the arrow).
Hot gases push the bolt forward against the pressure of the cartridge base, and simultaneously push the bolt carrier BACKWARDS. 

BUT the human body,
is not in line with the arrow.

So your Free Body Diagram is only 2 dimensional...like a 2D CADD drawing.

The right forearm swings in an arc around the shoulder joint.

So, you are ignoring the third degree of freedom,
you are ignoring Left-Right Action-Reaction.

You need a full blown 3D Free Body Diagram.

Then you will better understand
why I use a moment couple.

Reverend
will attend my Florida seminar in October 2014.
I will discuss how and why a statically balanced stab sys is not the answer
for a dynamic shooting system.


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## Reverend

nuts&bolts said:


> Reverend
> will attend my Florida seminar in October 2014.
> I will discuss how and why a statically balanced stab sys is not the answer
> for a dynamic shooting system.


Alan, do you know something I don't? 
I was told there was no more room for me


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## nuts&bolts

Rick! said:


> There has to be shooter input as the "third" moment is holding weight times the vertical distance between between your grip contact point and nock. Since the lever arm is very short, it takes a relatively large "force" change this moment; i.e., to complement an additional ounce or two on the front stab. This helps explain the PCE grip height effect. If there isn't a fundamental balance at full draw, then bow movement at full draw is inevitable.
> 
> Below is the fundamental free body diagram at full draw for the "in-plane" moments.
> 
> 
> 
> Alan, I'm still researching where in physics that mass squared is used - still haven't found it... Also, power is the rate of work, not sure how length * mass^2 = power. If you could expand on your concepts a bit we could understand them better.


I believe the fella got the equations mixed up.

He tried a delta radius measurement (long stab minus short stab) and used the net difference in stab length.

Then, he took
net difference in stab length (front stick length minus side stick length)
and
took mass weight times mass weight,
and came up with a number.

I think he was shooting for,
MOI equivalence.

MOI = moment of inertia
As you know, MOI = mass times distance times distance.

So,
I would calculate MOI for the front stick.
30-inch front stick
say 6-ounces in front.

So,
take the weight,
times the stick length
times the stick length.

6 ounces
times 30 inches
times 30 inches
I get 6 x 30 x 30 = 6 x 900 = 5400 SOMETHINGS....resistance to wagging left-right, resistance to wagging up-down.
Moment of Inertia for the front stick.

So,
let's say we have a 12-inch stick, for the side stick.

IF we want EQUIVALENT MOI,
for the side stick....

That won't work,
but if we want to calculate EQUIValent MOI for the side stick...

well,
the front stick has 6 x 30 x 30 = 6 x 900 = 5400 SOMETHINGS for the Front Stick.
the side stick is 12-inches long.
the side stick MOI = 12 x side weight x side weight.

5400 divided by 12 = 450 somethings.
21.2 ounces times 21.2 ounces for the side stick = 450 somethings.

So,
IF you want equivalent MOI for the front stick
and the side stick...

30-inch FRONT stick.
*6 ounces on the end of the FRONT stick.*
5400 somethings for resistance to up-down wagging...resistance to left-right wagging.

12-inch SIDE stick.
*21.2 ounces on the end of the SIDE stick.*
also 5400 somethings for resistance to up-down wagging...resistance to left-right wagging.

This assumes a STRAIGHT riser,
with no deflex
with no reflex.

A shooter could START here,
and then...

would fine tune the side rod door swing angle
would fine tune the side rod airplane propeller angle

would FINE tune the SIDE stick weight...LOWER weight, to make the bow FOC more FRONT heavy
would FINE tune the SIDE stick weight...HIGHER weight, to make the bow FOC less FRONT heavy.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan, do you know something I don't?
> I was told there was no more room for me


Sorry,
I thought you made it into the seminar.

If there is enough interest,
I can come back for a second class.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Gabriel Badenhorst of South Africa...
> Please explain...


Right handed shooter.
V-bar is mounted with side sticks facing FORWARDS.

Result is a very high FOC, for the bow stabilizer system.

So,
I can guess that his holding weight is HIGHER than usual,
and
that this shooter has a very active shot, pulls REALLY HARD into the wall of the bow,
and tunes his bow for a very very FIRM wall (heavier cables).

FOC, as is MORE FOC for the bow stab system
is proportional to the holding weight of the bow
and
is also proportional to the PULLING into the wall amount (how hard you pull into the wall)
what I call the FIRING PRESSURE when the arrow is fired.

I have 60% letoff DL modules on my DST 40.
So, 60 lb bow, this means 24 lbs of holding weight.

But,
my FIRING PRESSURE,
the "how hard I pull into the wall of the bow" can be as high as 27 lbs or 28 lbs.

60 lbs of draw weight.
27-28 lbs of FIRING PRESSURE, when the arrow is released.

That is nearly 50% of the draw weight.
So,
my bow FOC is on the HIGHER side.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan, do you know something I don't?
> I was told there was no more room for me


Ever look into BENCHREST rifles?

Ever wonder why a BENCHREST rifle,
can weigh as much as 60 lbs?

hehehehehehe.

MORE mass weight,
more stable foundation,
more energy transfer to the bullet,
cuz the firing system, the RIFLE has enough MASS
to have much LESS recoil, when firing a Lapua 338 caliber bullet,
for that 1000 yd shot.

IF you can handle the extra mass,
a SUPER featherweight rig
or
a HEAVIER rig,...as long as fatigue is not an issue,
the HEAVIER rig, will be the more STABLE rig.


----------



## SonnyThomas

nuts&bolts said:


> Ever look into BENCHREST rifles?
> Ever wonder why a BENCHREST rifle,
> can weigh as much as 60 lbs?


Now, Alan, you know darn well concrete bench rests need something to hold them hold. Or was it they started making them out of concrete to support the bench rest rife? I forget, it's been too long.


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## SonnyThomas

Now, the upside for us that don't get technical or aren't Advanced Math wizzes, we can just throw on or remove weights until we find what works for us.


----------



## klinde

great post!!!!!


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## Blue X

Reverend said:


> Alan, do you know something I don't?
> I was told there was no more room for me


I got ur back rev. 

Its pretty easy to get a bow to point and hold. Jacob told all about it in his original post. You dont have to be a scientist or a mathematician, just be simple enough to not over complicate such a simple act as archery. Sometimes something as simple as reading sight movement and adjusting accordingly, ends up in a 2 page math problem. Kinda like Martha, 25 steps to make a peanut butter sandwich, starting with planting the p nuts.

Blue X


----------



## montigre

Blue X said:


> You dont have to be a scientist or a mathematician, just be simple enough to not over complicate such a simple act as archery. Blue X


Gotta agree, started reading into page 2 of this and got dizzy...decided to just go to the range and shoot some...


----------



## Lazarus

Blue X said:


> Its pretty easy to get a bow to point and hold. You dont have to be a scientist or a mathematician, just be simple enough to not over complicate such a simple act as archery. Sometimes something as simple as reading sight movement and adjusting accordingly, ends up in a 2 page math problem. Kinda like Martha, 25 steps to make a peanut butter sandwich, starting with planting the p nuts.
> 
> Blue X


Ain't that the truth. Great post.


----------



## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Using the "generalization formula; 16 oz. and 34" front stab;
> length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"
> 
> Then:
> "X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.
> 
> example:
> 34" Front bar length times weight of 16 ounces = 544
> 544 / 12" rear bar length = 45.3 ounces for the rear bar.
> 
> If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars.
> .................
> 
> Well, I did the "times" stuff and got 352 pounds.....???????????


While this formula seems to be correct for balancing 2 static bars at rest, the formula in its application to archery is useless. If you use bars that are split evenly length wise you end up with a simple times 2 answer. A 30" front bar with 3 ounces up front would only require 6 ounces on a 15" side bar. A 20 front bar with 6 ozs would require 12 ozs on a 10" side bar... etc., etc. Something needs to be added to the equation to make it work, perhaps draw length could be figured in as it certainly plays into the entire system.


----------



## EPLC

This is rough but I think it may come closer for an archery application at full draw.

((Front Bar Length PLUS AMO Draw Length)*Front Weight)/Rear Bar Length = REAR BAR WEIGHT

For a 30" front bar with 4 Ozs up front using a 15" back bar with a 28" AMO DL the formula would be: ((30+28)*4)/15 = 15.5


----------



## nuts&bolts

EPLC said:


> This is rough but I think it may come closer for an archery application at full draw.
> 
> ((Front Bar Length PLUS AMO Draw Length)*Front Weight)/Rear Bar Length = REAR BAR WEIGHT
> 
> For a 30" front bar with 4 Ozs up front using a 15" back bar with a 28" AMO DL the formula would be: ((30+28)*4)/15 = 15.5



EXCELLENT EPLC.
You are correct. The AMO DL, factors in the crow bar length, basically measured from somewhere on the head (corner of mouth plus about 1.75-inches).
A see-saw of sorts.

(FRONT BAR LENGTH + AMO DL)
REAR BAR LENGTH

TIMES

FRONT WEIGHT

gives me very close, sorta, to my rear bar weight.
If I had less door swing angle, on my side rod,
your equation would be even closer to my setup.


----------



## N7709K

Just factoring in dl won't get you anywhere- dl doesn't matter to the degree that holding weight and how dynamic the shot is do


----------



## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Just factoring in dl won't get you anywhere- dl doesn't matter to the degree that holding weight and how dynamic the shot is do


Yes, but the original formula posted doesn't take into consideration anything but bar lengths with calculations based on a balance point between the two bars placed end to end on the bow side end. This would be great for walking a tightrope but not so much as a formula for balancing a bow at full draw. I figured that by adding DL into the equation you "may" come up with a reasonable starting point rather than starting from scratch. That said; your original process posted is the best I've seen on this topic.


----------



## EPLC

nuts&bolts said:


> EXCELLENT EPLC.
> You are correct. The AMO DL, factors in the crow bar length, basically measured from somewhere on the head (corner of mouth plus about 1.75-inches).
> A see-saw of sorts.
> 
> (FRONT BAR LENGTH + AMO DL)
> REAR BAR LENGTH
> 
> TIMES
> 
> FRONT WEIGHT
> 
> gives me very close, sorta, to my rear bar weight.
> If I had less door swing angle, on my side rod,
> your equation would be even closer to my setup.


Thanks Alan. Interesting that your variation of the formula came up with the same answer. Also, I don't believe that it is possible to come up with a formula that is exact as there are just too many factors involved. But... a formula that gives you a ballpark starting point may be helpful and eliminate much of the early trial and error steps.


----------



## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> While this formula seems to be correct for balancing 2 static bars at rest, the formula in its application to archery is useless. If you use bars that are split evenly length wise you end up with a simple times 2 answer. A 30" front bar with 3 ounces up front would only require 6 ounces on a 15" side bar. A 20 front bar with 6 ozs would require 12 ozs on a 10" side bar... etc., etc. Something needs to be added to the equation to make it work, perhaps draw length could be figured in as it certainly plays into the entire system.


The formula came about for a starting point, ie, generalization. No formula is exact, works for everyone. How many sit down and work out some equation with having a stacks of weights to try? They just start adding, subtracting and moving. They get what they think they like, shoot it for a few days and start tweaking to get more exact balance, feel, float and even feed back from the said "dead in the hand" parallel limb bows.


----------



## SonnyThomas

A little slow with no formula is exact. Had to stop. This shop owner wanted my string jig. I gave it to him.


----------



## Padgett

It is all about confidence, if using some formula gives you the 100%confidence that your bow is set up absolutely perfect then you have the type of personality that needs the formula. For some of us we gain confidence in our setup by the seeing our float pattern shrink by starting with no weight on the bars and working our way up with combinations of weight on the bars. Once the float shrinks down to the smallest then we have the confidence we are looking for.

Now it isn't all about the general float pattern because I have learned that by adding some side torque to the bow or by having a little extra on the rear bar can give you the same good float pattern but eliminate the occasional drop out float that plagues many people including me. The extra rear weight gives a slightly different feel for me that allows my pin to almost sit on a shelf where I aim and never feels the need to drop below where if I use different weight combinations my pin feels like it is going to drop out all the freaking time. I have a performance based personality and I have to see results, I am a math teacher and enjoy numbers but they aren't what I rely on to shoot well.


----------



## nuts&bolts

EPLC said:


> Thanks Alan. Interesting that your variation of the formula came up with the same answer. Also, I don't believe that it is possible to come up with a formula that is exact as there are just too many factors involved. But... a formula that gives you a ballpark starting point may be helpful and eliminate much of the early trial and error steps.


My setup, after lots and lots of shooting and testing.









My setup is rather FRONT HEAVY.
I also have quite a bit of DOOR SWING angle on the side rod mount, a LONG ways away from the bowstring,
a near 90 degree door swing rotation. No, not for looks. 

NO, I don't hang my bow from the ceiling, to figure out what angle to swing the side rod. The rope holding up the bow,
is just for pretty picture purposes.

Gotta shoot and shoot and test and shoot some more.
Just a systematic approach. YOUR method predicted my SIDE rod weight within 15%. My side rod weight is 15% less than your formula predicted.

THAT IS REALLY good, to get within 15%. So, if I started my process, with your formula, then my bow would be a LITTLE LESS front heavy.

NO BIGGIE, cuz, I always start my rods in a see-saw format, side rod DEAD LEVEL, and pointed DUE SOUTH,
when the front stick is level and pointed DUE NORTH.

Immediately, I would discover, that the SIDE ROD is a wee bit TOO HEAVY, and I would start taking weight off the side ROD, cuz the bow was not FRONT HEAVY enough.

Not difficult to do.
No secret sauces.
Any shooter, beginner, intermediate or advanced,
if they have a systematic process...

NO engineering mathematics required....just for the ones that want to do Free Body Diagrams...Hmmmmmm, Statics, that was way back in the 1980s in engineering school.

So, I shoot better with a slightly MORE front heavy FOC on the stabilizer system. Groups are DEAD FLAT, for me,
when I shoot with 15% less weight on the SIDE stick.

There is no magic pill.
There are no shortcuts.

Pick something,
and go shoot
and find out how much FRONT heavy you need your bow.

I tell folks to pick something reasonable on the front stick,
and then load up the back bar CRAZY heavy
and it will be as obvious as your nose...

the bow will be NOT front heavy enough,
you will see the effect, when you shoot just a few arrows.

Arrows will miss HIGH,
you will struggle to keep the pin, your scope dot ON target,
and the bow will FEEL ridiculous, if you are into TOUCHY FEELY.

I try to get my students to focus on pictures of their results.

So,
you put 15 LBS on the rear bar....to work with 3 ounces in the front,
or if you are a HE-MAN, 4 ounces in front
or if you are a HE-MAN, 6 ounces in front
or if you really are a HE-MAN, 8 ounces in front.

Whatever makes you happy, for the first experiment
in the front.

Pick anything that floats your boat.

Then,
put 20 LBS on the side stick. It will be terrible, right?

So,
you went CRAZY heavy, and tried 42 LBS on the side stick.

That did not work so well.

Ok. CUT it in half. Try 21 LBS on the side stick. Nope, shoots TERRIBLE.
Try 10 LBS in the back, the side stick. Nope, No Joy.

Try 5 LBS...try 2.5 LBS...try 1 LBS....you know, 16 ounces...then 8 OUNCES.

You will see your shots go from missing HIGH,
to missing LOW...at some point.

Not difficult.
NO math.

Just shoot folks.

You will find your sweet spot fairly soon, with the SIDE stick in SEE-SAW position,
to dial in FOC for your bow system.

Then,
you play with the angles. I call it the airplane propeller swing angle. You swing the side stick, you ROTATE the side stick like a clock, like the minute hand.

From dead level, at the 3-o'clock position,
to 4-o'clock (lower than horizontal)
to 5-o'clock
to 6-o'clock.

SYSTEMATIC.
METHODICAL.

The FOC of your bow just gets a little bit MORE and MORE FRONT heavy.

GROUPS get MORE and MORE flat,
like a pancake.



My bow is VERY front heavy.

My bow is pretty much at the 6-o'clock position, with my PREFERRED side rod weight.

Even though I am capable of very advanced mathematics,
I did not use any math, no formulas....I just started CRAZY heavy, and worked my way down in SIDE ROD weight,
cutting the weight in HALF again and again and again and again
until it was OBVIOUS, my SIDE ROD weight, was too LOW.

Then,
I start adding weight back onto the side rod, 2 ounces...another 2 ounces...maybe another ounce, again and again and again.
Then,
I fine tune with a 1/4-inch BOLT and add washers, add nuts....you know...NUTS and BOLTS....get it?

So,
I ended up with the SIDE ROD at 6-o'clock.

No,
not cuz I was hanging my bow from a overhead crane I-Beam in the warehouse...

that was just for a PRETTY PICTURE.

So,
now I am done with the FIRST knuckle on the side rod mount, the MINUTE HAND rotation angle hinge, on the side rod mount.

THIS is STEP 1 of my 3 Step Procedure.


----------



## nuts&bolts

What is STEP 2?

Excellent question.

IF you are right handed
IF you are shooting Pancake FLAT arrow groups...

like one of my students.

START



Then,
we work the side rod weight.

GOTO 1000 LBS on the side rod,
with the SIDE ROD dead LEVEL, pointed DUE SOUTH, with the front stick DEAD level, pointed DUE NORTH...

WAY too back heavy.

GOTO 500 LBS on the side rod.
GOTO 250 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 125 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 60 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 30 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 15 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 7 LBS on the side rod
GOTO 3 LBS on the side rod

you see how fast this goes,
when you cut the weight in half each time.

YOU go from CRAZY back heavy
you find the sweet spot
then you goto CRAZY FRONT HEAVY, as in TOO MUCH front heavy.

So,
then you start adding weight on the SIDE STICK and the second time YOU find your sweet spot,
you will KNOW it..

cuz your groups, your 30 shots
doing my STRESS TEST, with ONE arrow
again and again
yeah,
walking back and forth,
cuz I am slowing you down ON PURPOSE,
to make you take ONE SHOT at a time,
so you take GOOD shots.

YOUR TARGET will look like this.



END of STEP 1 of my process...with NO MATH.


So,
WHAT is STEP 2, you ask?

EXCELLENT question.

IF you are right handed,
DIAL in your bow to NEVER AGAIN miss to the RIGHT...

RIGHT HANDED?....then, NO RIGHT misses.

LEFT HANDED?....then, NO LEFT misses.

END of STEP 2.

TARGET looks like this, for my Right Handed Student.



YOu figure out how to accomplish this.

STEP 2 is now complete.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooo,
what is the THIRD and FINAL STEP
of my THREE STEP method, with NO math?

Well,
for the fella who is an engineer, trying a 2D Free Body Diagram,
this is where we use the DOOR SWING angle, the other HINGE on your side rod mount.

SWING the side rod,
just like a door, 
away from the bowstring, ONE click...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, TWO clicks TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, FOUR clicks TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, EIGHT CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, SIXTEEN CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, THIRTY-TWO CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, SIXTY-FOUR CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, ONE HUNDRED TWENTY EIGHT CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring
away from the bowstring, TWO HUNDRED FIFTY SIX CLICKS TOTAL...away from the bowstring

Now,
I don't think ANY two way side mount, has a GEAR TOOTH washer with nearly 300 CLICKS available,
but you get the idea.

WHEN you find the sweet spot for DOOR HINGE swing,
on your side rod mount,
a side rod mount with TWO hinges...

your group goes from the STEP 2 result.....



to the STEP 3 result.




START



FINISH




No math.
No touchy feely.
Just a system.

Three Steps.
Common Sense.

ONLY ONE way to do things.
ONE way to solve the puzzle.
ONE way to do the detective work.

*EPLC's math formula
was within 15% of where I ended up,
the OLD Fashioned Hard Way.*



This is for you, Reverend.


----------



## nuts&bolts

DST 40 hanging from an overhead crane I beam in a warehouse...

solely for PRETTY PICTURE purposes...not how to figure out side rod angles.



DST 40 is pretty vertical,
with the sight mount hardware.

NO sideways tilt is observed.



STARTING vertical rotation position...NO, not vertical, not plumb, but just to show the current FRONT heaviness,
based on how I tied the paracord to the riser.

IN Engineering speak, we call this the NULL condition, the starting point, for the PICTURE experiments.

FRONT rod added. This is my TUNED FRONT rod, weight. JUST to show how much FRONT heavy the bow is, with ONLY the TUNED, final front rod weight.

PRETTY front heavy.

NO, this is now how I figured out how much weight to put on the front. See posts above.
Just a photo, to show how much FRONT heavy my bow is, AFTER all the hard work, to tune the bow.



This amount of front heavy will NOT work for you. Not Exactly. This is just to provide a PICTURE to show, that my bow is NO where near STATIC balance. Not even close.

SIDE ROD, the TUNED side rod weight, with the HINGE ONE TUNED for door swing angle, THROUGH lots of shooting....not hanging my bow from an I Beam in the Ceiling.
SIDE ROD, the TUNED side rod weight, with the HINGE TWO TUNED for CLOCK minute hand angle, through LOTS of shooting...not by hanging my bow from an I Beam in the Ceiling.

So, you see,
the SIDE rod is NOT for static balance,
the SIDE rod is NOT for balancing the target sight, on my bow.

The SIDE rod is for making my bow OBVIOUSLY one side HEAVY.



So,
if the bow is CLEARLY, NOTICEABLY one side heavy...


then,
the DST 40 SUCKS for walking a tight rope.

Yup.

I don't walk a tight rope.

I shoot arrows. I teach folks how to shoot arrows.

For my student,
he went from THIS to THIS.





BUT,
if your bow LEANS this much to the LEFT...




HOW do you keep the bubble in the MIDDLE?




Well,
I just TWIST my wrist and forearm,
to keep the bubble in the middle.

How does Trailerdog, keep his bow arm LEVEL, for a LEVEL shot?



Well,
Trailerdog WORKS, and holds his bow arm LEVEL. The release arm, pulling 2-3 lbs HEAVIER than holding weight, into the wall of the bow, also helps to keep the bow arm UP, and LEVEL.

So,
since my bow is so ONE SIDE heavy,
I just WORK
and twist the forearm/wrist
to keep the bubble CENTERED.


Well,
WHAT if YOU prefer the TIGHT ROPE walker style?
TRY it and see how your GROUPS look.

When you get GREAT results,
then, you are done
with my version of the Advanced Class for tuning your STICKs.


----------



## nuts&bolts

NEVER just one way to do things.

http://www.bow-international.com/reviews/equipment/stabilisers-made-easy/

Like this excellent article presents...

MINIMUM two styles.

BALANCED system...style....school.
I would call this the TIGHT ROPE walker school.

RESISTANCE system...style...school.
This is the CRAZY heavy, on one side school.

See what works for YOU,
is my bottom line.

NO math.
No formulas....but, the EPLC formula is the BEST I have seen so far.

No TOUCHY FEELY secret sauce.
Just shoot arrows,
and FLATTEN your groups.

Then,
if you are a RIGHTY SHOOTER, get rid of your RIGHT Misses, outside the x-ring.

Then,
the FINAL step,
work your side rod, door hinge swing adjustment,
to get RID of your LEFT misses.

Wash...RINSE...Repeat.

Until you get the BEST ever groups in your life.

Not complicated.
No math.

ANYBODY can do this.
Any AVERAGE JOE, that is.


----------



## Lazarus

Gotta love archery. FABULOUS sport. Something for everyone. 

Some do, some talk about it. 

Ain't it great. 

To the OP.....if you want to excel, don't over think it. You've been given "the formula" several times over on this topic prior to now.


----------



## N7709K

I don't waste time with "the formula"- don't need to and been doing bars long enough to get within an oz or two outta the gate. I don't run a 1:2 ratio... Right now I'm running 1:.98ish; my shot style works better with a heavily weighted main(lightest I've ever ran is 12oz). If you shoot an aggressive shot the formula doesn't work- doesn't matter formula, you end up with a very back heavy setup.

If you hang the bow get a 30deg below parallel and work off of that weight. Tune bars for hold- fix the shooter for the misses....


----------



## rdaigle87

tagged


----------



## wolf44

you guys are making it too complicated. yes you can figure it all out with physics, but its how your mind works with the relative movement of the bow, and your shot process that makes stabilizers work. throw a little bit of weight on the bars and adjust for the things that your bow is doing that you don't want it to do.

Everyone will be a bit different and different shot styles will need different stabilization. Agressive shots and high holding wt will need a bit more wt forward, passive shots and lower holding wt will need a bit more rearward wt.


----------



## N7709K

Dan knows what I'm talkin bout


----------



## Padgett

When wolf44 talks Padgett listens.


----------



## ArcherXXX300

Tagged, good info...could always work more on getting my float better.


----------



## montigre

wolf44 said:


> Everyone will be a bit different and different shot styles will need different stabilization. Agressive shots and high holding wt will need a bit more wt forward, passive shots and lower holding wt will need a bit more rearward wt.


This is all you really need to know in one tight little package. Often too much time is wasted thinking about archery instead of shooting....


----------



## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> This is all you really need to know in one tight little package. *Often too much time is wasted thinking about archery instead of shooting...*.



:thumbs_up


----------



## ron w

the thing to consider, is that, as the bar gets shorter, it's leverage against movement decreases exponentially, so the weight that "is" the resistance to movement, has to increase in a similarly exponential function, in order to have the same resistance to movement, on that shorter stick.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Of course, everything in this Thread and the "float" and "balancer" Threads is all but so reading to pass the time away. It comes right down to it, it's the shooter. Yes sir, it is. 
Today I attended a Field shoot just to watch, but took my bow along just in case. There me was just having fun on the practice range while others were competing. Bow shoulder and bow arm still a little sore, but prouder than a peacock pounding bull's eyes from 15 yards out to 50 yards and collecting a health share of Xs.
Here comes...Dang if I can remember his name. So I watch him while letting my arm and shoulder settle down. His bow, a PSE fire breathing sucker and standard diameter carbon arrows. He has a 2" extended 5 pin fixed sight with 4X lens. His stabilizer, a rink dink 6" Axion. No back bars, no other stabs of any kind. He pounds bull's eyes like there is no tomorrow, not one miss. I shoot with him when he gets to 55 yards. I run one just out of the bull's eye at 3:00. He put's on in the bull's eye. I know what I did stupid and nail the X ring with my 2nd shot. His 2nd shot goes a bit high just out of the bull's eye. Our next two shots pound the bull's eye. Hotter than blazes and humidity high enough that we are both drenched we called it session. A little more gabbing and I find that he's only been shooting for two years....

So I'm sitting here wondering how much money I could have saved over the years and how much time I wasted messing with stabilizers. :crybaby2:


----------



## ron w

so many guys have the idea that a stab produces reduction of float. it does not, it only slows down the particular float you happen to have for that given day. the forces that produce float are constantly working against the weight on the stab and do not increase or decrease except for your own condition for that day of shooting. for the actual amount, or range of movement of the float to change, there has to a change in the forces that produce it. if your shot set up and form are consistent, the float will be consistent and vise-verse. the dynamics that produce the movement that is your float are only slowed down by the weights and length of the damping resistance of moving the weights that are on the end of your stabilizer . 
5 horse power will move a ton if it is given enough time to push or pull. the difference is that it starts out slowly because there is allot of weight to move and there isn't much power there to move it.


----------



## N7709K

Ron- go weight a set of bars and tell me again how bars have no impact... I'm sorry bud but book smarts only go so far in the real world; the point of bars is to make the bow harder to move (I.e. Steadying float)... Call me an ass, but the time away has you out of touch


----------



## jmann28

N7709K said:


> Ron- go weight a set of bars and tell me again how bars have no impact... I'm sorry bud but book smarts only go so far in the real world; the point of bars is to make the bow harder to move (I.e. Steadying float)... Call me an ass, but the time away has you out of touch


If I had more thumbs I'd give you 4 thumbs up


----------



## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> Ron- go weight a set of bars and tell me again how bars have no impact... I'm sorry bud but book smarts only go so far in the real world; *the point of bars is to make the bow harder to move *(I.e. Steadying float)... Call me an ass, but the time away has you out of touch





jmann28 said:


> If I had more thumbs I'd give you 4 thumbs up





ron w said:


> so many guys have the idea that a stab produces reduction of float. it does not, it only slows down the particular float you happen to have for that given day. the forces that produce float are constantly working against the weight on the stab and do not increase or decrease except for your own condition for that day of shooting. for the actual amount, or range of movement of the float to change, there has to a change in the forces that produce it. if your shot set up and form are consistent, the float will be consistent and vise-verse. *the dynamics that produce the movement that is your float are only slowed down by the weights and length of the damping resistance of moving the weights that are on the end of your stabilizer . * 5 horse power will move a ton if it is given enough time to push or pull. the difference is that it starts out slowly because there is allot of weight to move and there isn't much power there to move it.


Guys, I think ron meant what you two think. We all get too "wordy" on technical jazz me thinks. I want a good balance per say, but I like a bow to have some weight, but not overly so. Why? Because it slows me down over all - holds steadier, gives good float. 

I got to see the first day scores of the above Field Championship. S.S. was high man with a 552. Now, considering 560 is perfect...Steve is good and has been good for as long as I can remember. I got to talk with Steve and see his Hoyt bow. His has a plain jane front stab not unlike mine and no back bars. I don't know if his bow weighs more than 7 1/2 pounds, 8 pounds at the most. This ASA Senior Pro was there and I know his rig, stabs hanging all over it, something of 10 pounds or more. His first day score, 529 and in 7th place if I remember correctly. 1st had a 542 I believe....


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## N7709K

last bit on this issue as most of it seems to be falling on deaf ears... 

weight your bars correctly and the amount AND distance your dot moves becomes less(as you make the needed DL changes and HW changes it moves even less). if the bow resists movement the distance your dot moves becomes less; the bow moves less- it doesn't just slow, it stops(weight a set for shooting in the wind and you'll see the benefit bars have when you don't leave the yellow at 50m with a stiff crosswind...). 

if we've moved onto citing shooters for what works and doesn't Jesse lit it up in Croatia shooting a main and back; so did Chris White and Steve Anderson. Ben English tore up Van Lier again main AND back.... point i'm getting at is I can find a winning shooter running whatever setup I want to validate my point of view. In the discussion of bars and their impact (or any aspect of equip or process for that matter) the focus is usually on the winning professionals- in that viewpoint a 552 field won't play. a 555 is marginal with some shoots taking a 557 or better avg to play, looking at the shooters posting scores within that range the VAST majority run "balanced" (I use the term very loosely here, referring more to the employment of both main and rear bars that the actual balance of the rig as most do not run balanced...) setup with weight on both bars and the CoG shifted slightly lower towards the lower pocket. Broadening the scope 3d bows get stupid heavy because the game allows it- shoot one arrow and wait 15min; field, fita, indoors don't allow for the additions to basically only mass weight that 3d does. Field allows for much lighter bars than fita and to a degree indoors as well(NFAA/IFAA field anyhow).


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> weight your bars correctly and the amount AND distance your dot moves becomes less(as you make the needed DL changes and HW changes it moves even less). if the bow resists movement the distance your dot moves becomes less; the bow moves less- it doesn't just slow, it stops(weight a set for shooting in the wind and you'll see the benefit bars have when you don't leave the yellow at 50m with a stiff crosswind...).
> 
> looking at the shooters posting scores within that range the VAST majority run "balanced" (I use the term very loosely here, referring more to the employment of both main and rear bars that the actual balance of the rig as most do not run balanced...) setup with weight on both bars and the CoG shifted slightly lower towards the lower pocket.
> 
> Broadening the scope 3d bows get stupid heavy because the game allows it- shoot one arrow and wait 15min; field, fita, indoors don't allow for the additions to basically only mass weight that 3d does. Field allows for much lighter bars than fita and to a degree indoors as well(NFAA/IFAA field anyhow).


Could not have stated it better. Mike Leiter, Pro shooter for Mathews, shoots a balanced stab system with his C4 and just scored a 556/558 at our state field championships this weekend. His first score was a little lower because of heavy rains on the first day. Argue and calculate all you may, those numbers do not lie..... 

In short, you have to set up the stabs to the bow's geometry, your style of execution, the game you'll be shooting AND the conditions you'll be competing in. This is probably one of the bigger differences between pure target (field/fita/spot) shooting and 3D shooting. 

I have 3 general stab set ups, one for field, one for fita, and another for indoors. I have not shot near a 555, YET, but as a pure target shooter, I know I cannot just take a cookie cutter formula set up and expect to perform at my best in all 3 arenas of play.


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## Carbofastdirect

N7709K said:


> Right now I'm running premier plus bars- 33" main with a 15" back... Main has been beaten up a little so it's not as good as it was. I've played with a bunch of bars and I have the ones I like and the ones I don't; right now my favorite set of bars isn't offered in long enough lengths.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the formula- I don't shoot a passive shot so it takes weight on my bars to get the dot to sit


Enjoyed this read, havent been on AT much while on holidays have to say i missed the info!!

Out of interest Jacob how long would you like your main bar to be if any length was available? and why?


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## ILOVE3D

Boy have I been wasting my time in the General section as well as the Bow Hunter section. This forum is so full of information I have been searching for but never found until tonight. I've got lots of reading to do.


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## sharkred7

Ok, so my tournament season ended a Outdoor Nationals. I have been reading a lot about stabilization, shot processes, tuning, any thing I can. I want to get better. So using the theory if you want different results you must do things differently I have started over using the info I have learned on the way.

I went out and tried Jacobs tuning process. I went from 8oz at 30" and 18oz at 10" on my Alpha elite 56# higher letoff 26 3/8 draw down to 4 and 6 respectively.

Now I understand what it means to see what your float pattern tells you. At 50M my groups were less than 3" tall but almost 15" wide!!! I kept adding weight to the front and watched the groups dramatically shrink. When they started to become more vertical I started adding wt to the back. Ended up pretty close to where I started but the experiment was eye opening.

I just got some new stabs for my PCE for indoor and did the same process with that bow. After a couple of hours I ended up with 9oz at 30" and 18oz at 12". That made my PCE more rear weighted than my Alpha Elite, but only slightly. But that makes sense with the different riser geometry and cam style. My draw wt is only 52# on the PCE but still has significantly more holding wt with the spiral cams vs the RKT cams.

After those changes I shot a game at 13 yards on the compound FITA face and never missed a 10. Target looked sweet but I did notice a trend of my holes were oblong from center to 10 oclock. BUT, my bottom target did NOT have that trend. The higher the target, the larger the hole got. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that means my draw could be a twist or 2 long?

Great thread! Really showed me some things to look for.

Thanks
John


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## Tiroarco

N7709K said:


> last bit on this issue as most of it seems to be falling on deaf ears...
> 
> weight your bars correctly and the amount AND distance your dot moves becomes less(as you make the needed DL changes and HW changes it moves even less). if the bow resists movement the distance your dot moves becomes less; the bow moves less- it doesn't just slow, it stops(weight a set for shooting in the wind and you'll see the benefit bars have when you don't leave the yellow at 50m with a stiff crosswind...).
> 
> if we've moved onto citing shooters for what works and doesn't Jesse lit it up in Croatia shooting a main and back; so did Chris White and Steve Anderson. Ben English tore up Van Lier again main AND back.... point i'm getting at is I can find a winning shooter running whatever setup I want to validate my point of view. In the discussion of bars and their impact (or any aspect of equip or process for that matter) the focus is usually on the winning professionals- in that viewpoint a 552 field won't play. a 555 is marginal with some shoots taking a 557 or better avg to play, looking at the shooters posting scores within that range the VAST majority run "balanced" (I use the term very loosely here, referring more to the employment of both main and rear bars that the actual balance of the rig as most do not run balanced...) setup with weight on both bars and the CoG shifted slightly lower towards the lower pocket. Broadening the scope 3d bows get stupid heavy because the game allows it- shoot one arrow and wait 15min; field, fita, indoors don't allow for the additions to basically only mass weight that 3d does. Field allows for much lighter bars than fita and to a degree indoors as well(NFAA/IFAA field anyhow).


Some good common sense advice here. This is reflective of my train of thought. Thanks for saving me writing it all out!:wink:


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## sharkred7

sharkred7 said:


> Ok, so my tournament season ended a Outdoor Nationals. I have been reading a lot about stabilization, shot processes, tuning, any thing I can. I want to get better. So using the theory if you want different results you must do things differently I have started over using the info I have learned on the way.
> 
> I went out and tried Jacobs tuning process. I went from 8oz at 30" and 18oz at 10" on my Alpha elite 56# higher letoff 26 3/8 draw down to 4 and 6 respectively.
> 
> Now I understand what it means to see what your float pattern tells you. At 50M my groups were less than 3" tall but almost 15" wide!!! I kept adding weight to the front and watched the groups dramatically shrink. When they started to become more vertical I started adding wt to the back. Ended up pretty close to where I started but the experiment was eye opening.
> 
> I just got some new stabs for my PCE for indoor and did the same process with that bow. After a couple of hours I ended up with 9oz at 30" and 18oz at 12". That made my PCE more rear weighted than my Alpha Elite, but only slightly. But that makes sense with the different riser geometry and cam style. My draw wt is only 52# on the PCE but still has significantly more holding wt with the spiral cams vs the RKT cams.
> 
> After those changes I shot a game at 13 yards on the compound FITA face and never missed a 10. Target looked sweet but I did notice a trend of my holes were oblong from center to 10 oclock. BUT, my bottom target did NOT have that trend. The higher the target, the larger the hole got. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that means my draw could be a twist or 2 long?
> 
> Great thread! Really showed me some things to look for.
> 
> Thanks
> John


Sorry, that should read front weighted


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## nuts&bolts

sharkred7 said:


> Sorry, that should read front weighted


I wuz wondering about that.

Makes MUCH more sense now.


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## redman

I like a balanced stab system with pse supra only 2oz on 33 front bar 10 angle down and 5 oz on 12 inch rear bar low on riser

I am not a big fan of super heavy mass weight bow


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## SonnyThomas

View attachment 2034508



sharkred7 said:


> Ok, so my tournament season ended a Outdoor Nationals. I have been reading a lot about stabilization, shot processes, tuning, any thing I can. I want to get better. So using the theory if you want different results you must do things differently I have started over using the info I have learned on the way.
> 
> I went out and tried Jacobs tuning process. I went from 8oz at 30" and 18oz at 10" on my Alpha elite 56# higher letoff 26 3/8 draw down to 4 and 6 respectively.
> 
> Now I understand what it means to see what your float pattern tells you.* At 50M my groups were less than 3" tall but almost 15" wide!!! *I kept adding weight to the front and watched the groups dramatically shrink. When they started to become more vertical I started adding wt to the back. Ended up pretty close to where I started but the experiment was eye opening.
> 
> I just got some new stabs for my PCE for indoor and did the same process with that bow. After a couple of hours I ended up with 9oz at 30" and 18oz at 12". That made my PCE more rear weighted than my Alpha Elite, but only slightly. But that makes sense with the different riser geometry and cam style. My draw wt is only 52# on the PCE but still has significantly more holding wt with the spiral cams vs the RKT cams.
> 
> After those changes I shot a game at 13 yards on the compound FITA face and never missed a 10. Target looked sweet but I did notice a trend of my holes were oblong from center to 10 oclock. BUT, my bottom target did NOT have that trend. The higher the target, the larger the hole got. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that means my draw could be a twist or 2 long?
> 
> Great thread! Really showed me some things to look for.
> 
> Thanks
> John


The above in bold....drives me over the edge. Owned a bunch of bows, but can't ever remember having one group 15" wide at any distance out to 80 yards. Seems your bow was weighted way wrong to start with or you had other issues needing addressed. 

Here's my TX4, 33 1/2" ata. 8" NAP Shock Blocker weighing 10 1/2" ounces. 40 yards, 2 arrow in the X, 2 cutting the X line and 2 just outside the X ring. Set it up on Friday at the shop, Short range French tuned, 9 feet and 30 yards. Saturday I shot at home and took picture. The follow day, Sunday, I used it for the Club's Member End of the Year Play Day. I won the novelty 60 yard event, hitting the baseball size bull's eye with my first and only shot. 

2nd pic. None of these groups were shot with back balance or back bars of any kind. I retired this UltraTec after it gave me at least 40 3rd or better finishes in Indoors, Outdoors, Field and 3D sanctioned State Championships and club events.


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## sharkred7

I bow down to you. I went way extreme on my weights and saw dramatic results that were in total agreement with what Jacob said. And when I tuned them in like he said I was right back where I started. It was an experiment. Congratulations on all your achievements. However, not relative to my post


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## SonnyThomas

Got lost in the numbers, bow switch, cams, experiment, couple of hours and all. So whoops. I've been the yo-yo route of bars and weights, but on lesser scale. It took a phone call to understand build slowly and test longer. As told our bodies take time to adjust to weight, even a little weight. Said was 2 or 3 weeks was not usual. And then going backwards I found what first didn't like was more to my liking. Almost better was having someone watch and even then the much better improvement prove short lived. I had to add back on about a 1/3 of what we took off the front and so far it has proved good enough I'm not messing with it again unless something plainly proves I need to.

Weight.... Friend of mine has found weight is not friendly if going overboard. His bow weighed something of 10 pounds - his experiment to copy another well known Pro. He is big and he is strong, but adding on 2 pounds or more over in one or days has put the hurt on his shoulder and muscles. 
So I asked him what his bow weighs now and he weighed it right in front of me. 6 1/2 pounds, 1 pound less than mine. Says he likes it better 

New bow is in, 40 1/4" ata, and with it I ordered a new set of Stingers, which should have been here already, 30" stabilizer, two 12" back bars and more weights than I need, just in case. That 7 1/2 pounds has always felt light I'm shooting for 8 pounds. Not in a big hurry and will finish out the 3D year with the bow I'm shooting now.


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## Fury90flier

redman said:


> I like a balanced stab system with pse supra only 2oz on 33 front bar 10 angle down and 5 oz on 12 inch rear bar low on riser
> 
> I am not a big fan of super heavy mass weight bow


similar here...light up front. Using an 18" front W/20* down, I'm 5oz up front and another 5 on the top riser holes- no size rods.


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## Rick!

ron w said:


> the thing to consider, is that, as the bar gets shorter, it's leverage against movement decreases exponentially, so the weight that "is" the resistance to movement, has to increase in a similarly exponential function, in order to have the same resistance to movement, on that shorter stick.


The inertia of a rod is around 1/2ml^2; m being mass and l being length. Mass, being directly proportionate to inertia, is NEVER "squared" in an inertia expression. Therefore, your assertion that "weight" needs to increase exponentially due to a change in length is incorrect.

The only relationship that could create a mass squared term is gravitational attraction. If your stabs are affecting tides, then you have too much weight or your bars are a few thousand miles too long.

I may not have much for shooting credentials but I can coach you through any math or physics questions you might have.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> ...As told our bodies take time to adjust to weight, even a little weight. Said was 2 or 3 weeks was not usual...


If this were true, then how could you possibly ever get to a starting point you were confident in??? This sounds like an endless 2-3 week cycle of trial and error. What feels good/bad today may prove to be bad/good down the road? There has to be a better way. Yesterday I wasn't happy with the hold I was getting on my backup bow so I moved the back bar a tad closer to the bow. Like magic the bow smoothed out nicely and stayed that way to finish the course. Today I shot again and found the bow to be as unsteady as it started out yesterday. I even make my own bars and weights (good ones) so I can easily play with different setups. Still I find it difficult to find a combination that remains consistent from day to day.


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## Fury90flier

EPLC said:


> If this were true, then how could you possibly ever get to a starting point you were confident in??? (the weeks of testing and confirming ARE what give you confidence. This sounds like an endless 2-3 week cycle of trial and error. as it should be[/COLOR What feels good/bad today may prove to be bad/good down the road? ]possibly but once you find your float/balance it doesn't change- less you just want to try something elseThere has to be a better way. not really. All trial and error Yesterday I wasn't happy with the hold I was getting on my backup bow so I moved the back bar a tad closer to the bow. Like magic the bow smoothed out nicely and stayed that way to finish the course. ]quite common to make a chage and go "yep, that's it"...our focus changed, thats it- as you proved in the next sentenceToday I shot again and found the bow to be as unsteady as it started out yesterday. I even make my own bars and weights (good ones) so I can easily play with different setups. Still I find it difficult to find a combination that remains consistent from day to day.




don't change anything on the bow "from day to day"...you can't be consistent doing that. Spend your time adjusting YOU, not the bow and your frustration will shrink (well, that's a like- when you work on YOU, you tend to stay irritated lol)


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## SonnyThomas

For the additional weight I was told a time frame of how far out, not that some can't adjust quicker.

Dang, I switched from Bernie's V bar and weighted mini silencers to a 10" Stinger back bar with 6 ounces on the end. Got where I wanted and didn't like it. It felt awkward. Went back to the Bernie set up and disliked even more and I liked it to begin with. Now back to the 10" Stinger and shooting better and the awkwardness gone.


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## Lazarus

Fury90flier said:


> don't change anything on the bow "from day to day"...you can't be consistent doing that. Spend your time adjusting YOU, not the bow and your frustration will shrink


Above is some of the best advice you will ever read on this forum.

If you make a change in ratio/position/balance you have to be committed to stay with it until your body and shot tells you if it was a positive or negative move. There is no way you can do that instantaneously. 

EPLC, I don't believe the difference in "hold" that you talk about from day to day is related to your equipment. I'd rather think it is something else, diet, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, something. Now, if you're a Baptist that never over-eats, my theory is toast. :wink:


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## EPLC

Fury90flier said:


> don't change anything on the bow "from day to day"...you can't be consistent doing that. Spend your time adjusting YOU, not the bow and your frustration will shrink (well, that's a like- when you work on YOU, you tend to stay irritated lol)


Not changing things "day to day". I'm not getting repeatability from day to day with the same setup. The changes that I do make that seem to be helpful do not seem to stick around for long. In other words, my sweet spots sour quickly.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Above is some of the best advice you will ever read on this forum.
> 
> If you make a change in ratio/position/balance you have to be committed to stay with it until your body and shot tells you if it was a positive or negative move. There is no way you can do that instantaneously.
> 
> EPLC, I don't believe the difference in "hold" that you talk about from day to day is related to your equipment. I'd rather think it is something else, diet, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, something. Now, if you're a Baptist that never over-eats, my theory is toast. :wink:


I'm not a Baptist, but I'm 5'9", 165# and I don't drink or smoke and I drink decaf coffee. Maybe this is the problem


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## Fury90flier

EPLC said:


> Not changing things "day to day". I'm not getting repeatability from day to day with the same setup. The changes that I do make that seem to be helpful do not seem to stick around for long. In other words, my sweet spots sour quickly.



it sounds like your "sweet spot" isn't well known by your body...time to go find it and you can't get there with extra crap on the bow. It will be frustrating for a few days but once you find "it" and get comfortable again the little changes you're doing won't be needed.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> I'm not a Baptist, but I'm 5'9", 165# and I don't drink or smoke and I drink decaf coffee. Maybe this is the problem


I got nothin. :wink:

Ok, back to seriously, maybe you should try some really good stretching exercises before you shoot. Especially if you shoot in the morning. Could it be that the days you struggle are days when you aren't "loose?" The days that you don't struggle are days that you've done something to loosen up first? Getting your body loosened up can pay big dividends in "hold."


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## SonnyThomas

Fury90flier said:


> don't change anything on the bow "from day to day"...you can't be consistent doing that. Spend your time adjusting YOU, not the bow and your frustration will shrink (well, that's a like- when you work on YOU, you tend to stay irritated lol)





Lazarus said:


> Above is some of the best advice you will ever read on this forum.
> 
> If you make a change in ratio/position/balance you have to be committed to stay with it until your body and shot tells you if it was a positive or negative move. There is no way you can do that instantaneously.
> 
> EPLC, I don't believe the difference in "hold" that you talk about from day to day is related to your equipment. I'd rather think it is something else, diet, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, something. Now, if you're a Baptist that never over-eats, my theory is toast. :wink:





EPLC said:


> I'm not a Baptist, but I'm 5'9", 165# and I don't drink or smoke and I drink decaf coffee. Maybe this is the problem


I'm not a Bapist either, stand 5'10, 280#, I don't drink and I don't beat my wife, but I had to go over a month and 3 or 4 3Ds before I decided the 10" back bar was best for me and not that I really like it.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm not a Bapist either, stand 5'10, 280#, I don't drink and I don't beat my wife, but I had to go over a month and 3 or 4 3Ds before I decided the 10" back bar was best for me and not that I really like it.


I can't understand it... you're only 1" taller than I am but I get different results?


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## hdracer

Saw this from George Ryals IV today...

http://www.archerylearningcenter.com/blog/stabilizers


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> I can't understand it... you're only 1" taller than I am but I get different results?


Must be one of two things. Either not beating my wife or I carry more weight than you do


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## Madlaz

tagged


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## SonnyThomas

??? Finding what works sucks. Fun though  Stage set; For the last few 3Ds I've used a 10" bar on the left with 6 ounces on the end.

Yesterday; Playing around at the shop, setting up my new bow, the MX2. Going slow here. Robbed my present target bow of the Doinker "V" bar. Taking break after checking timing and setting draw stops and installing Limb Driver Pro arrow rest.
I put the Bernie V mount and mini-silencers on my MarXman. Walk over to the indoor practice range and promptly put 2 arrows in the X ring. Solid as rock. Now, a 10" bar on the left with 6 ounces on the end to a short V mount with equally weighted mini-silencers is quite a change. A bit of bubble left. Actually, forgetting the bubble, the more a I shot the more I got a ragged hole, a oval hole from the center of the X itself and just inside the X ring.

New stabs for my MX2. Stingers, 30" front, two 12s on the back. Just experimenting here. Used the formula I've put up before. Figured out to be 3 ounces on the front and 4 ounces each for the back bars. Sort of surprised. All that weight and the MX2 weighs maybe a bit less than my MarXman, 7 pounds and maybe a couple more ounces. I was wanting 8 pounds. Held bow out and it stayed more or less right there, flat, no tilt side ways and no tilt forward or backwards. Didn't really care for that, so added another ounce to the front and got just a bit of tilt forward. And see new Post....10 degree quick disconnect.


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