# Substitutions for practice



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

You can draw aim and let down....but you can't shoot? Even short games? Help me understand.

To answer your question... The power of visualization and mental training is very real. Not shooting is no excuse for not practicing.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

No room for a proper target, 2 houses full if stuff, stuffed into my one house, add in a wife, her 2 cats, and a dog that is afraid of anything over 80dB. Negates actually being able to release an arrow (I'm happy that I can mount my stabs and draw).

Add in that she works from home 1st shift, and hits the sack soon after I come home, and it's been generally around 5 degrees all winter... The unheated garage is out as well.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Sounds like you are physically doing what you can then. 

Do you do much mental exercise?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Not a whole lot, if any. In my dreams I shoot great !!!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Competitiveedge.com check it out. Give Alan a call.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Thanx


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Mahly said:


> Thanx


The blue one is a great place to start to build any program. 

The other is actually baseball/softball centric but I really like it....performance under pressure.

I also have his "mental toughness" series in MP3 on my phone. Great during flights or road trips.


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## BearArcher1980 (Apr 14, 2012)

I have made a shot trainer out of string line and 1/4" air hose tubing. I made it long enough that it replicates my draw length perfectly and the 1/4" tubing goes in your hand to hold at full draw. I can practice my release while sitting on the couch watching TV or anytime. I keep it in my pocket with my release and practice whenever I am sitting somewhere for any amount of time. Have gotten some strange looks while in the doctors waiting room shooting my string lol but it has helped me tremendously. I was getting punchy with my trigger release and have pretty much cured that buy playing with that little string. Cost me $0.00 to make cause I had everything around the house lol. Try it, but use string line like you use in construction as it doesn't flex much and its cheap to buy.


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## hoytalphamax (Jan 26, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> The blue one is a great place to start to build any program.
> 
> The other is actually baseball/softball centric but I really like it....performance under pressure.
> 
> I also have his "mental toughness" series in MP3 on my phone. Great during flights or road trips.


Do you know if that audio can be bought on ITunes ?


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## joebehar (Nov 13, 2012)

Mahly said:


> I have a very good grasp of form, I have my bow tuned to a "T", etc etc. the ONE thing I feel that is truly holding my game back is lack of practice.
> Life gets in the way, and most archery shops in the area are closed when I want to shoot (2nd shifter).
> I'm lucky to get in some shooting every 2 weeks!


Your post just made me realize what a lucky position I'm in. My local archery club has indoor shooting up to 70 metres and members get a key fob for 24/7 access. There is literally never a time I cannot shoot.

I guess that's kinda spoiled me in the sense that I never have to think about practice alternatives. I just simply go to the club and shoot.

Maybe there are enough archers in your area to start a club?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

hoytalphamax said:


> Do you know if that audio can be bought on ITunes ?


I have never tried... Don't know.


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## mosierls (Oct 2, 2013)

Not questioning your passion for the game but....... you couldn't stop me from shooting in that unheated garage. I shoot in my unheated garage 10 yards all the time and its been a brutal winter.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

tmorelli said:


> The blue one is a great place to start to build any program.
> The other is actually baseball/softball centric but I really like it....performance under pressure.
> I also have his "mental toughness" series in MP3 on my phone. Great during flights or road trips.


If you're able, can you tell me how this program compares to or differs from Lanny Basshams Archery package? http://www.mentalmanagementstore.com/product/archery-package/ Thanks!! I am also wanting to get more into the mental side of this sport.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

I know you said no room but even with three yards you can work on form and release. I shoot in my basement all the time.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

mosierls said:


> Not questioning your passion for the game but....... you couldn't stop me from shooting in that unheated garage. I shoot in my unheated garage 10 yards all the time and its been a brutal winter.


This. ^ With emphasis on not questioning your passion. You can't depend on a "range." You gotta bring the range to your house.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

montigre said:


> If you're able, can you tell me how this program compares to or differs from Lanny Basshams Archery package? http://www.mentalmanagementstore.com/product/archery-package/ Thanks!! I am also wanting to get more into the mental side of this sport.


I have Lanny Basshams archery package...,

It's good stuff I think everyone can benefit from it..

It would have helped me tremendously years ago, through trial and error and just plain stubbornness I have learned a lot of what he's teaching. 

I took a few things from the book that I use everyday and it works. Not everything in the book is going to work for everyone. 

I think the most valuable part is how to engage your subconscious and how to consistently perform to 100% of your ability, especially under pressure.

It's definitely with the money


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Slingshot said:


> I have Lanny Basshams archery package...,
> 
> It's good stuff I think everyone can benefit from it..
> 
> ...





montigre said:


> If you're able, can you tell me how this program compares to or differs from Lanny Basshams Archery package? http://www.mentalmanagementstore.com/product/archery-package/ Thanks!! I am also wanting to get more into the mental side of this sport.


Gail,

I am not. I read part of "with winning in mind" years ago. Its on my to do list because of all the positive reviews such as above.

However I'd say the same for the materials I have used mostly.

The Warrior Athlete

Mental toughness for Athletes

The Alan Goldberg materials mentioned.

And if you are feeling abstract.....zen & the art of archery 

I especially recommend the middle two. 

As I said, I'd like to finish reading WWIM but I know that what I need is not more material but more self discipline to practice and apply what I already know. IMO, if a person simply completes (and adopts) the blue workbook in my pic above....(and I have more than once) they are at a substantial competitive advantage over the vast majority of competitors when they step to the line....and it is "basic". 

That's a little telling about my opinion on the state of the average mental game of archers.

Good material isn't hard to find...the important thing to do is get started. My favorites have all not been archery specific. Take the hitting and fielding book as a prime example.... I don't even like baseball.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you can't find time to practice, I can understand that. but if you can't find time to practice at 20 yards , as in "real conditions" shooting, there's no reason you can't shoot the 10 yard drills.
most pros will agree that they spend more time at the 10 yard bale, shooting "bridge developmental rounds" to develop the mental game, than any other form of "practice" there is.
even just short sessions with a "string bow" working on your release execution, is better than doing nothing when you only have a few minutes to devote to your shooting.
when you run these "string bow drills" close your eyes and visualize the entire shot.....visualize your float settling into the x ring and then initiate the release execution, just as you would experience in a real shot.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

tmorelli said:


> Gail,
> 
> I am not. I read part of "with winning in mind" years ago. Its on my to do list because of all the positive reviews such as above.
> 
> ...


I agree and will have to check out those books. 

Lannys book deals with confidence mostly and I have a solid grasp on how good I actually am....lol


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Lanny's book is especially targeted towards maintaining that confidence under the pressures of competition. one of the key hidden messages I got out of his writings, is the recognition that you are there, at the top of your game because you worked hard and did the right things that got you there....so, you should be there and treat being there just the same as the time when you were working to get there, because it is that effort that put you there and it will be that same effort that keeps you there, and nothing else.
so many guys get there and say," wow, i'm doing good", then relax a bit, and fall of the fence. 
getting there requires effort and staying there requires maintaining that effort.


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## hoytalphamax (Jan 26, 2009)

I was fortune enough to be loaned the With winning in mind.

Like stated before it goes deep into the subconscious.I like his saying "Winners win because they expect to win"


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Not sure what release you shoot but a hinge with a training peg will allow you to run the whole shot without firing an arrow.

-Grant


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

ron w said:


> if you can't find time to practice, I can understand that. but if you can't find time to practice at 20 yards , as in "real conditions" shooting, there's no reason you can't shoot the 10 yard drills.
> most pros will agree that they spend more time at the 10 yard bale, shooting "bridge developmental rounds" to develop the mental game, than any other form of "practice" there is.
> even just short sessions with a "string bow" working on your release execution, is better than doing nothing when you only have a few minutes to devote to your shooting.
> when you run these "string bow drills" close your eyes and visualize the entire shot.....visualize your float settling into the x ring and then initiate the release execution, just as you would experience in a real shot.


What are bridge development rounds? Do they use a smaller target?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Iowa shooter said:


> What are bridge development rounds? Do they use a smaller target?


 no, actually just the opposite, in process.
shooting at the 10 yard bale with at target and your full shooting set up, is the bridge developing drill.
you use a regular target, so that up close, the x ring is big and easy to stay in. this teaches your shot process that it's good to be in the x ring and to run without anxiety of drifting off the x-ring, because it's so gig at 10 yards.
then you run your shots concentrating on the best form and execution you can do and when things go astray, you deliberately let down on the shot and start over. this teaches your shot process that it's a good thing to let down on a shot that's developing poorly, and reinforces the idea, that only good developments will be allowed to run all the way to the shot breaking. that in a nutshell, is what the bridge comprises....that communication that either lets the shot happen if it's running fine, or abandons it, without question or anxiety. the purpose is basically to not let your shot process fall prey to the temptation of, "forcing a bad shot to go". because those invariably end up as misses and a miss has no reward for your shot process.
it has to be taught, that a let down has the same value as a shot that hits the x, because that let down just saved a shot that missed the x. once your shot process has this value similarity installed with it, your shot process will become more reliable and confident it will hit it's mark, when the bow is drawn.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

Shrinking the practice field is one of the best methods of practice. 
Brazilian Futsal ( very tight indoor soccer ) is exactly why Brazil exploded onto the soccer scene. By shrinking the field you increase the reps and interactions.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

For those that suggested 10 yard drills, I wish I could. It's just not feasible with my current living situation. I may try to set something up for 3 yard drills…thats about all I could likely get while keeping the critters away, and the noise down for the wife…I have like 1 room to do this in. So basically, I'm looking at blank bailing for the most part.
I did get to go shooting today for the first time since my last tournament, and got a 50x game (No lens and the pin within 6" of the riser for bowhunter rules for next tournament, but long stabs). 3rd time shooting my TRU Ball HT3….Still learning that release and found a better anchor with it warming up/sighting in.
I'm also going to try some elastic bands as I could tell I was tiring and my scores showed it. First 100 was 18x (and one miss was VERY close), 2nd was 17x, last 100 was only 15x. So I think simple endurance is part, and Muscle memory is DEFINITELY part as I saw low misses from not being as strong on the shot…took 3 of those before I noticed what was going on 
Had quite a few shots that felt PERFECT…and several that I struggled with…I think muscle memory will help more shots achieve that perfect feel. When it felt right, it was vitally always an inside out X. Those I struggled with were sometimes Xs sometimes not.
I did sit there and let someone who was interested in shooting a hinge try mine out…After maybe 20 mins, I picked my bow back up and pounded 5 Xs 4 inside out…. so I know some of the things I need to do. Still frustrating to be in the situation, but it IS nice having a clear direction.

I only post this so that others who may have similar issues can learn by my mistakes/misfortunes and figure out ways to move themselves forward.
Next week is another tournament, So I plan to shoot again Sunday, and at least work out Tuesday and Thursday.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahly,
if you have room to blank bale, you have room to work on the drills/benefits that 10 yard baling produces. the distance isn't important. the message that is produced by shooting short yardage rounds will be sent, no matter the distance you shoot, as long as the distance produces that large, easy to stay in X-ring.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Update: Did well in the tournament, but didn't get in much if any practice before it.
Finally got to shoot today (Yeah, been a rough month) and shot a 55x, however the range a touch short of 20 yards, so I can't say as I shot any better than last month.

There have been some noticeable changes is score progression though.
I have been working with stretch bands every few days. 
Looking at my last game, I started out very good, and went downhill from there.
THIS game I started out poorly, peaked about 2/3 through the game, and started to drop off at the end.
I think the bands helped for the last 2/3s of the game...right near the end I let a couple go that I shouldn't have, and I am 100% sure I could have gotten a few more Xs had I warmed up for more than 5 arrows... I was still messing with the sight for a few rounds into the game.
Also, my 1st 2 targets were my worst. after those first 2 arrows for each of the first few rounds, I shot better.. Dropped my first 3 Xs in the first 3 rounds. RIGHT near the end I had a bad arrow on target 4....I blame it on fatigue.

Good news is Spring is coming (well....getting a little warmer out)! That means I'll be able to tear into the garage and set myself up a small range of 5...MAYBE 8 yards! My bow is quiet enough, that it shouldn't bug the neighbors if I'm shooting at 1:00am. I'm very excited about this coming year.
I have also signed up for a Sunday league to force me to get to the range at least once a week. It's a cricket league, so it's not 100% transferable to spots, but darn it, it's shooting, and it's competition...both are things I need to step up my game.

I plan to update this thread so others can see what benefits I am able to get from shooting a close game, and actually shooting 80 arrows a day vs 200 arrows once a month.

For those that like to analyze, here is a pic of me and my target at the end of the day (75 arrows were send into the target before the pic)

Order of shots was:

1. 4
. 3
2. 5











Ron W: The issue isn't really just the distance...but the noise of shooting a bow indoors either while the wife is working or sleeping. Moving to the garage to shoot will help with the things you said.


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## pola_bear (Jun 6, 2014)

suanders firing line?
http://www.sausa.com/product.php?product_pk1=77
i am brand new to all this, but it has helped me transition from a wrist release to back tension, by doing many, many reps, when idont have time to set p target in back yard, etc., etc., etc.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Since my most available practice ranges are outdoors, I too have trouble getting in reps in the winter. Short range work on form and execution is about the only thing I have available. Tony's advice on visualization is spot on.

One thing I learned about shooting in the house is that bag targets are very noisy. The ones I've tried sound almost like a 22 going off. A layered foam target is much, much quieter.

I've tried the trainers and string bows and just don't get much from them. They just don't feel like a bow. I even tried the one that's a tube mounted on the bow with a piston attached to the string. That one was horrible and so badly balanced that the feel of shooting it was nothing like shooting my bow.

Allen


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Aread. 
trainers and string bows, don't do much for anything other than developing your release execution and it's physicality, they're not meant to be a substation for shooting practice.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And what all needs to be practiced? There's some shot tube thingy where you drawn and release, but no arrow to "kill" appliances and furniture - any type release aid, Bernie P., Robin Hood something. There is the Stanislawski MoreX hinge release that has a safety cross pin. Draw, fire, but the string is not released to propel the arrow (sounds like a clicker setting when fired). Short distance to shoot, 6 to 10 feet? Try hitting a level set vertical line or weighted string time after time without fail - not really nuts about it, but practice is practice.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Outdoor ranges may be problematic in winter but are actually useful in summer if they stay open. My outdoor public park is open sunup til sundown 7 days a week 365 ish a year and these days that's longer hours and more days than an indoor range is open.

Beyond that, I worked the night shift one summer during college while playing soccer, you need to look at range hours and find a sleep-work-shoot pattern that keeps the family happy and you rested but gets you to the range. I used to sleep all day and then go to practices and games in the evening, then work overnight. 

I work 9-5 M-F and so I've figured out which ranges for which days, and it's not the same. I go about three places to make it work. Maybe if there was a range open early shoot in the morning. It's not a normal time but this is a make do situation. I shoot a fair amount outdoors at like 8 or 9 here in Texas this time of year to try and get out of the heat.

Up to a point I think the more you practice, the sharper and stronger through the round you get. When I hear the round tailed off, that's usually when I'm rusty and not getting enough reps and need to do more practice.

10 yard drills are useful for form implementation but there is no real substitute for shooting the distance you are about to compete at. By 20 the arrow is starting to drop and move and not just slamming into the bale before anything can develop.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there's some unsubstantiated elelment to your post. 
you can doo very well in spots/target, by doing only 10 yard baling. the structure of the shot has to be exactly the same at any distance , only the size of your target changes, if you trust your float, which 10 yard baling will develop, the size of the bulls-eye makes very little difference to the execution of a good shot.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

IMO somewhere out about 15 yards is where distance starts affecting the shot. My brother isn't much worse than me at 10 but the difference in our training shows up at 20.

I think 10 is an excellent distance to implement form -- that's where I started, where I go back when I add equipment or first try a new bow, where I go when I try radically new form. You can practice form over and over without worrying about arrows spread all over the place.

But if you want to see if your form is coming together and how you'd do under tournament stress or out hunting, there is no substitute for 20 and beyond. At 20 you can start to graphically see the effects of torque, collapse, etc. Go back beyond that and you won't just score lower, you might miss the bale. That is clarity. That is back to the drawing board.

I mean, I shoot olympic, but when I first started back with traditional, I was drilling at 10 and didn't see where I needed work until I backed up to 20. Then I saw the need pretty clearly. At that point I was reminded how much I rely on a clicker and such in my olympic manifestation, and it was incentive to work harder at that discipline. But it didn't show up til I backed up.

The structure of a shot should be the same, but the hints of problems pop out more, the more you back up. The arrow gets more time to drop and swerve and your mistakes magnify.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I spend a lot of time shaping and tweaking my life so I have the time to enjoy life instead of being stuck, to me when I read your posts you are stuck in a life that doesn't even allow you to go outside and shoot your bow. This issue is layered because it seems like you have no yard to shoot in and you have been stuck in the house and your wife won't let you shoot. Right now I have a awesome setup and my wife and I have decided to sell the house and move so I have to make sure that my new house and property allow me to have a good setup. I quit coaching school sports years ago so that I could hunt and shoot and ride my harley. To me you need to find a way to reshape your life so you can do the things that are going to make you better because now you are stuck in a rut that isn't allowing it to happen.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

in reality, "practice" does nothing for good archery. we all know very well that generally, "the pin has to be in the x-ring to hit it". we don't need to practice that. we can , however alternately "train", shooting at short distance to work on what is the basis of hitting the "X"....running our shot process as good as possible. this is actually easier done at 10 yards, or shorter. 
you have to understand that the bow doesn't care how far it shoots...only you do...and if your shot process is strong , your shot will be good. no "Practice" will ever do that, because "practice only supports what your shot process knows and if your shot process knows some wrong things, "practice" only supports those bad elements, so "alternatives to "practice", which would include short distance "training", is actually more beneficial to your shooting, by teaching the shot process exactly what it needs to do and refusing to do what it shouldn't when it's easy to stay in the bulls eye.


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