# How would you score this??



## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Hypothetical question... you're shooting a fan and one of the archers shoots an arrow at the wrong target, like this... they are standing on the middle left pin and shoot one arrow at the left target(scoring a 5), then move a pin, shoot the second arrow at the left target from the right inside pin (scoring a 4). Now, realizing they made a mistake, shoot a second arrow from that same pin at the proper target (right) and score a 5, now shoot an arrow from the rightmost pin at the right target scoring a 5, then finish at the leftmost pin and shoot the left target with a 5.

What's the score on this target?


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

and no answers just yet from the crew that had this discussion.... .hold off a bit, eh? :chortle: :zip:


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## rcmjr (Jan 31, 2007)

:set1_thinking:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

zero,zero,5, 5, -1 = 9

wrong target=0

wrong stake=0 ( only 1 arrow per stake )

too many arrows, remove highest poin, score, and subtract 1 point...

4 on the left a 5 on the right 

9

my second thoughts anyway...heheheeeee..


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

:zip::darkbeer:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

south-paaw said:


> zero,zero,5, 5, -5, -1 = 4
> 
> wrong target=0
> 
> ...


ding ding ding
we have a winner. I was just too damn tierd to do the math. By NFAA rules that is exactly how that target would be scored.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Allow me to quote an NFAA rule to assist you... 

10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the
arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be
assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

What was the yardage?


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Ok your making me think too hard.

Arrow 1= 5
arrow 2= 0 (wrong target)
arrow 3= 5
arrow 4= 5
arrow 5= 5

Penalty for shooting too many arrows = highest scoring arrow (5) plus 1 additional penalty point. 
the score ends up being a 14 so he was better off taking the 0 and ending the target with a 15.

I'm done thinking until after I get about 10 hours of uniterupted sleep


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

capemaybowman said:


> What was the yardage?


Shouldn't matter, I don't think, but let's say the 35yd fan..


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

35 fan has a 50cm face second face is not required by rules it is just a there to be nice to the archers so as not to cross arrows


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Don't you also lose the pts if you shoot from the wrong stake???


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

:chortle: :chortle:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

capemaybowman said:


> 35 fan has a 50cm face second face is not required by rules it is just a there to be nice to the archers so as not to cross arrows


Ok, how about a short one like a 28 fan where two targets are req'd.. and would the fact that it was a 50cm face have a bearning on the final score for that archer?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

By the way I know the answer :zip:


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> :chortle: :chortle:



:noidea:

What's so funny?? :darkbeer:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

nanayak said:


> :noidea:
> 
> What's so funny?? :darkbeer:


Several of us debated this yesterday afternoon... :wink:


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

IGluIt4U said:


> Several of us debated this yesterday afternoon... :wink:


Uh oh.... do I wanna be privy to this info? :scared:


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## Robert58 (Oct 5, 2002)

capemaybowman said:


> 35 fan has a 50cm face second face is not required by rules it is just a there to be nice to the archers so as not to cross arrows


According to my rule book it says that if there are two target faces you must shoot two arrows at the left and two at the right.

Robert


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

IGluIt4U said:


> Several of us debated this yesterday afternoon... :wink:


and a few of us debated it from 10:30 PM - 1:30 AM Fri night


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> and a few of us debated it from 10:30 PM - 1:30 AM Fri night



:behindsof


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

Robert58 said:


> According to my rule book it says that if there are two target faces you must shoot two arrows at the left and two at the right.
> 
> Robert


You are right.


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> and a few of us debated it from 10:30 PM - 1:30 AM Fri night


:set1_thinking:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

capemaybowman said:


> 35 fan has a 50cm face second face is not required by rules it is just a there to be nice to the archers so as not to cross arrows


Actually the rules state that if multiple targets are used then the archer will shoot left target while on the left and right target while on the right. Same goes if multiple targets are used one on top of the other.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

OK, let me throw my hat in the ring. 

The five arrows scored 5,5,5,5,4.

If I am understanding the rule, the official score should be 5,5,4,0,-1(penalty) for a total of 13.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> and a few of us debated it from 10:30 PM - 1:30 AM Fri night


That's why I brought it here.. should be a good debate.. :lol:


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## mw31 (Apr 23, 2007)

IGluIt4U said:


> Hypothetical question... you're shooting a fan and one of the archers shoots an arrow at the wrong target, like this... they are standing on the middle left pin and shoot one arrow at the left target(scoring a 5), then move a pin, shoot the second arrow at the left target from the right inside pin (scoring a 4). Now, realizing they made a mistake, shoot a second arrow from that same pin at the proper target (right) and score a 5, now shoot an arrow from the rightmost pin at the right target scoring a 5, then finish at the leftmost pin and shoot the left target with a 5.
> 
> What's the score on this target?


I may be wrong bet wouldnt the first arrow be the only one to count because the shooter was out of sequence after shooting the second arrow from the right inside pin, (should have skipped the right outside pin because a third arrow was already shot and gone to the left outside pin).


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

IGluIt4U said:


> Hypothetical question... you're shooting a fan and one of the archers shoots an arrow at the wrong target, like this...
> 
> they are standing on the middle left pin and shoot one arrow at the left target(scoring a 5).....CORRECT TARGET scores a 5
> 
> ...


*I'm saying 5+5+5=15 -1 = 14. You do not score an arrow shot at a wrong target...and only one arrow can be shot from a pin or peg....period....there are no "Do Overs" in Field...*


.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> and a few of us debated it from 10:30 PM - 1:30 AM Fri night


It was 9:30pm when the discussion started.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> By the way I know the answer :zip:


So do I! :chortle:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

IGluIt4U said:


> Allow me to quote an NFAA rule to assist you...
> 
> 10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the
> arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be
> assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.





GOT LUCKY said:


> *I'm saying 5+5+5=15 -1 = 14. You do not score an arrow shot at a wrong target...and only one arrow can be shot from a pin or peg....period....there are no "Do Overs" in Field...*
> 
> 
> .



The way I read it, the 4 replaces the 5 from the first arrow as part of the penalty for shooting too many arrows at a particular target. 
The left target has three arrows the right target has two. You score the lowest two arrows from the left and enforce the zero on the "missed" target in the right side.
Score is 5,5,4,0 with a 1 point penalty=13


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Originally Posted by IGluIt4U 
Allow me to quote an NFAA rule to assist you... 

10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.



Spoon13 said:


> The way I read it, the 4 replaces the 5 from the first arrow as part of the penalty for shooting too many arrows at a particular target.
> The left target has three arrows the right target has two. You score the lowest two arrows from the left and enforce the zero on the "missed" target in the right side.
> Score is 5,5,4,0 with a 1 point penalty=13


*
Mornin' Spoon - 

the above Rule applies to if the shooter shot twice at "the same target".....

In this case, the shooter shot first at the wrong target so that arrow is scored a 0...

He should have stopped and moved to the next peg as you can only shoot one arrow from each peg. Then by shooting two arrows he received the PENALTY -1 for shooting twice....*

.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

GOT LUCKY said:


> Originally Posted by IGluIt4U
> Allow me to quote an NFAA rule to assist you...
> 
> 10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.
> ...


Mornin' Lucky.


I am really interested to see what the "Official" scoring is. I can argue both yours and mine quite effectively. The part that is hanging me up is the "shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value" part.That is saying that the 4 stands and the 5 is dropped. However I can also see the other side where that arrow is dropped because of wrong target, and that the third arrow is dropped because of too many arrows from the same stake.

I'm still sticking to my answer. Besides it is 13.


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Spoon13 said:


> Mornin' Lucky.
> 
> 
> I am really interested to see what the "Official" scoring is. I can argue both yours and mine quite effectively. The part that is hanging me up is the "shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value" part.That is saying that the 4 stands and the 5 is dropped. However I can also see the other side where that arrow is dropped because of wrong target, and that the third arrow is dropped because of too many arrows from the same stake.
> ...


*Hahahhaaaa....I love it...13 is my LUCKY number too but in this case...I gotta go with 14....

I'm going to try and get X-Quest...the "DEAN" of Archery" to chime in here on this one.....if anyone would know the correct answer...he would be one of them....

I saw where he shot the Nationals so he must be all healed up from his surgery to withstand the punishment of shooting field several days in a row....*

.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

on a fan... one arrow per stake.....one of them is wrong target, and then a seocnd arrow from same stake... both are zero's..

a fifth arrow is shot.. remove highest scoring arrow left in that target, in this case, a 5... that leaves a good arrow of 5.. subtract 1 point for extra arrow shot.. net 4... and a good 5 at the right target... total= 9 ...:confused2:

don't leave me hanging all day on this .... 



good mornin'...all..

:shade:


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

britesite would be another good source of rules info.

the hardest part of the question is defining 'target' and what context the word is being used in. is it the actual face, the bale or the numbered lane?

what target are you starting on? (numbered lane, generic use)

whats the angle of the target? (bale, generic use)

what target are you shooting? (specific)


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I say that only the first arrow counts.......second arrow was into the wrong target from the correct stake- 0......third arrow should have been shot from the far right stake but was shot from the middle right- 0.......fourth arrow should have been shot from the far left but was shot from the far right- 0......5th arrow- 0 no matter where it's shot from and a -1 deduction. Total for everything 4. 

Why didn't someone in the group help out this poor guy?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

south-paaw said:


> on a fan... one arrow per stake.....one of them is wrong target, and then a seocnd arrow from same stake... both are zero's..
> 
> a fifth arrow is shot.. remove highest scoring arrow left in that target, in this case, a 5... that leaves a good arrow of 5.. subtract 1 point for extra arrow shot.. net 4... and a good 5 at the right target... total= 9 ...:confused2:
> 
> ...


I will say it has to be either 13 or 14.

Shot 1-legal=5
Shot 2-Wrong target (scores a 4)
Shot 3-Too many shots from same stake=0
Shot 4-legal=5
Shot 5-legal=5

To me the only hiccup is whether or not the 4 shot on arrow 2 overrides the 5 shot on arrow 5 as a continuation of the penalty by removing a higher scoring arrow. 

Regardless, there are 3 arrows shot from the proper stake to the proper target face. It's just a matter of whether it scores 5,5,5,0,-1 or 5,5,4,0,-1.


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

USNarcher said:


> I say that only the first arrow counts.......second arrow was into the wrong target from the correct stake- 0......third arrow should have been shot from the far right stake but was shot from the middle right- 0.......fourth arrow should have been shot from the far left but was shot from the far right- 0......5th arrow- 0 no matter where it's shot from and a -1 deduction. Total for everything 4.
> 
> Why didn't someone in the group help out this poor guy?


*Easy there Sailor :wink:......

You missed the first two words.........*

Hypothetical question... 

*Now go get another cup of coffee.....good to see ya again......*

.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

USNarcher said:


> I say that only the first arrow counts.......second arrow was into the wrong target from the correct stake- 0......third arrow should have been shot from the far right stake but was shot from the middle right- 0.......fourth arrow should have been shot from the far left but was shot from the far right- 0......5th arrow- 0 no matter where it's shot from and a -1 deduction. Total for everything 4.
> 
> Why didn't someone in the group help out this poor guy?




```

```
 i can see it this way also... this is the way i saw it for my first post... then i edited my post to say a 9..... 

===========

Spooner...isn't a shot into a wrong target always scored a zero..??... i can't see 13, 14 or 15...

idk...???


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

south-paaw said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Spooner...isn't a shot into a wrong target always scored a zero..??


Just according to who you're shooting with, but YES, I always thought so. :shade:


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *Easy there Sailor :wink:......
> 
> You missed the first two words.........*
> 
> ...


Sorry little girl. I forgot about the Hypothetic thing. Cuz "Hypothetically" I almost made the exact same mistake this year. But I went to the correct stakes after shooting the wrong target.

I bet if you were "hypothetically" shooting with DC and you did this your score would "hypothetically" be a 3.

It states in the rules that no matter where you start the fan you must shoot one arrow at each stake 2 from the left into the left target and 2 from the right into the right target and you must advance to the next stake no matter what. So therefore after the first arrow the rest are zero's. But since it is all "hypothetical" then my answer is just a mirage.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

south-paaw said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> i can see it this way also... this is the way i saw it for my first post... then i edited my post to say a 9.....
> ...



That's what I thought until I read the rule Sticky posted:

10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers. 

I read that to say the 4 replaces a 5. 

I also think that because this is a fan target, that at worst the shooter can only be penalized for the 2nd and 3rd shots. 

Shot 2-wrong target=0
Shot 3-too many shots from same stake=-1

But shots 4 and 5 are legal because they were shot from the correct stake to the correct target face.

If this were say the 55 yarder where everyone shoots the same face from the same stake, you would take out the highest scoring arrow and count the other four. You would then assess a 1 point penalty for the extra shot still allowing 4 scoring arrows. 

In the example of this discussion, the shooter effects 2 penalties which would reduce him/her to 3 scoring arrows. If you employ the same scoring method, you remove the highest score from the target on the left and score the target on the right with a 0 and the lowest remaining score.

This further reinforces the score of 13 by scoring the arrows 5,5,4,0,-1 because the penalty for a mistake should not increase because of the style of target that it is.

While the fact that the target was a fan complicates things slightly, the shooter did get back on sequence and shoot legal arrows into legal faces from the appropriate stake.

That's my story and I'm sticking too it. It sounds really good to me anyway.

How long before we get the "Officially Correct" score for this situation??


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

need to specify what round because the way the 'shooting positions' section is written is different between the field and hunter round.

_field:

3. Shooting Positions:
The prescribed distances in this section are to be adhered to without variation. Each NFAA chartered club with an approved field course shall mark the distances on the shooting positions of all NFAA Rounds, except 3-D unmarked. In laying out the course any order may be used as necessary to fit the terrain.

4. Shooting Rules:
Each archer shall shoot 4 arrows at each of the 14-target layouts in a unit. In 10 cases this shall mean shooting the four arrows from a single stake at a single target. In the other four it may mean either shooting one arrow from each of four stakes at a single target or it may mean shooting all four arrows from a single stake but at four separate targets, or one arrow from each of four stakes at either two (2) or four (4) targets.


hunter:

3. Shooting Positions:
Where one stake is used, a stake at least eighteen inches above ground is recommended. On the two-stake shots
use stakes that extend twelve inches above ground and stakes that are not over six inches above ground for the
four-stake shots._



this is where the issue of the way the NFAA makes changes to the game creates mutations in the rules both written and interpreted. the basic rules between field and hunter rounds are the same. the only real difference is the distances and the colors of the target faces. why are the sections pertaining to the different rounds soo differently written? yes, there are a few one and two yard walk-ups in hunter while field has more 4 postition walk-ups, but the basic shooting rules are the same. this is something that needs to be reviewed and rewrittin so that the basics are the same, written the same, read the same and are interpreted the same.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Spoon13 said:


> That's what I thought until I read the rule Sticky posted:
> 
> 10. An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.
> 
> ...




```

```
sticky's not done having " fun" with us yet.... what a sick sense of humor he has...........:tongue::tongue:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

I am going with a 4 for the target, from what was said the only arrow shot correctly by your rules was the first one all the rest were not in the intended order, the minus a point thing would only happen on the total what ever it was so
5
0
0
0
0
-1

4


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Is there a definitive answer? Or is this hypothetical question not defined in the rule book???

IMO


If you shoot from the correct stake & into the correct target, score it. Otherwise, you loose the arrow & gain penalties for any and all extra arrows. This is making me think too hard....


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

For USNArcher and others.....

You do NOT need to shoot the stakes in order....So "hypothetically" you could shoot from stake #4 then #1 then # 3 then #2

Spoon13 is CORRECT on his original post!!!!


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> For USNArcher and others.....
> 
> You do NOT need to shoot the stakes in order....So "hypothetically" you could shoot from stake #4 then #1 then # 3 then #2
> 
> Spoon13 is CORRECT on his original post!!!!


Ah yes. But you must only shoot one arrow from each stake, then advance to the next. That being said, if you shot two from the same stake then to correct the situation you would have to advance 2 stakes to correct the first mistake. Did you miss me Hinky.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Sean McKenty said:


> I am going with a 4 for the target, from what was said the only arrow shot correctly by your rules was the first one all the rest were not in the intended order, the minus a point thing would only happen on the total what ever it was so
> 5
> 0
> 0
> ...


Wrong.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Hinkelmonster said:


> For USNArcher and others.....
> 
> You do NOT need to shoot the stakes in order....So "hypothetically" you could shoot from stake #4 then #1 then # 3 then #2
> 
> Spoon13 is CORRECT on his original post!!!!



Actually Hinky, BOWGOD of all people has it right in post #9. :chortle:

First arrow = inside left stake at left target for a 5
Second arrow = inside right stake at left target for 4, which is actually a 0 because it was shot from the wrong stake.
Third arrow = inside right stake at the right target for a 5
Fourth arrow = outside right stake at right target for a 5
Fifth arrow = outside left stake at left target for a 5

So there you have 5 + 0 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 20
Now subtracting a 5 for the highest scoring arrow leaves you with 20 - 5 = 15
Now subtract 1 point for the extra arrow 15 - 1 = 14 points

The not so hypothetical situation was:

First arrow = inside left stake at right target for a 3, which is actually a 0 because it was shot from the wrong stake.
Second arrow = inside left stake at left target for 4
Third arrow = inside right stake at the right target for a 4
Fourth arrow = outside right stake at right target for a 5
Fifth arrow = outside left stake at left target for a 5

So there you have 0 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 5 = 18
Now subtracting a 5 for the highest scoring arrow leaves you with 18 - 5 = 13
Now subtract 1 point for the extra arrow 13 - 1 = 12 points


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Hinkelmonster said:


> For USNArcher and others.....
> 
> You do NOT need to shoot the stakes in order....So "hypothetically" you could shoot from stake #4 then #1 then # 3 then #2
> Spoon13 is CORRECT on his original post!!!!



*Shooting out of order???....Not without pizzing the rest of your group off...

I demand a second EXPERT analysis and opinion.....*


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Ah yes. But you must only shoot one arrow from each stake, then advance to the next. That being said, if you shot two from the same stake then to correct the situation you would have to advance 2 stakes to correct the first mistake. Did you miss me Hinky.


Hinky is correct.....

and actually you wouldn't skip a stake. You would have to shoot 5 arrows....if you skip a stake then you get 2 zeros....one for shooting too many from one stake and one for not shooting an arrow from a stake :doh:

before you debate this with me....realize that although Sticky said his question was hypothetical....it isn't 

and I know it's not and the answer because I started this debate by doing it on Tues... :doh:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *Shooting out of order???....Not without pizzing the rest of your group off...
> 
> I demand a second EXPERT analysis and opinion.....*


No I'm pretty sure Hinky is spot on with this one.:59:

No need to muddy up the waters with some useless babble that's not right anyhow.:mg:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

just don't do it... then you won't need to worry about it ....!! ..except BH..

but...more than one arrow from same stake on a fan ... ??...

so was an arrow re-shot..??

pg 45 Article 4 section H.. # 3 ... constitution and bylaws...

" "
3. When shooting at butts with multiple target faces, the first 2 shooters will shoot the bottom
target faces. When target faces are placed side by side (i.e. 50 cm.) the archer on the left
will shoot the left target face; the archer on the right will shoot the right target face. *On fan
positions the same applies, except each archer will shoot two arrows at each target. Any
arrow striking the wrong target shall be considered a miss and may not be re-shot.* ""
===============
so wouldn't that mean three non scoring arrows out of 5..??

===============
pg 47 section I Scoring...:

"" 11. Any arrow(s) shot from other than a pre-designated position in the designated order shall
be scored as “0” (zero). ""


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Hinky is correct.....
> 
> and actually you wouldn't skip a stake. You would have to shoot 5 arrows....if you skip a stake then you get 2 zeros....one for shooting too many from one stake and one for not shooting an arrow from a stake :doh:
> 
> ...


*Well then you get a BIG FAT..... ZERO....no make that a MINUS 1 for STUPID SHOOTING!!!!...*

.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

south-paaw said:


> just don't do it... then you won't need to worry about it ....!! ..except BH..
> 
> but...more than one arrow from same stake on a fan ... ??...
> 
> ...


That's how I looked at it. But Hornet says that you can't argue cuz Hinky said it was so. :tongue::shade:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Moparmatty said:


> Wrong.



that would actually depend on what is meant by "pre-designated postion in the designated order" when the NFAA refers to fans including 35-36fans. Internationally it would score a 5 if someone really wanted to be strict( England 1994) and since they don't use the minus point thing


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## Robert58 (Oct 5, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> OK, let me throw my hat in the ring.
> 
> The five arrows scored 5,5,5,5,4.
> 
> If I am understanding the rule, the official score should be 5,5,4,0,-1(penalty) for a total of 13.


I'm with you. The rule book says score a zero for the highest scoring arrow in the target face.

Robert


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Robert58 said:


> I'm with you. The rule book says score a zero for the highest scoring arrow in the target face.
> 
> Robert


But according to the rules....any arrow shot in the worng face will be a zero...so there is no 4.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> and I know it's not and the answer because I started this debate by doing it on Tues... :doh:


It wasn't tuesday when you COULD have done it. It was Saturday when this hypothetical situation actually occured. LMFAO!!!!!!!


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Man, you guys sure know how to test the rules..


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Hypothetical question... you're shooting a fan and one of the archers shoots an arrow at the wrong target, like this... they are standing on the middle left pin and shoot one arrow at the left target(scoring a 5), then move a pin, shoot the second arrow at the left target from the right inside pin (scoring a 4). Now, realizing they made a mistake, shoot a second arrow from that same pin at the proper target (right) and score a 5, now shoot an arrow from the rightmost pin at the right target scoring a 5, then finish at the leftmost pin and shoot the left target with a 5.
> 
> What's the score on this target?


First shot middle left pin shot in left target =5
2nd shot from middle right pin shot in left target =0
3rd shot from middle right pin to right target =0 , shot from wrong pin
4 shot from outside right pin at right target = 0 shot from wrong pin
5 shot from outside left pin at left target =0 too many arrows
So the most he should recieve from this target would be a 4 or possibly a 3 if the 4 replaces the five shot into the left target.
Come on Field or Britsite you are needed here for this.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

First shot middle left pin shot in left target =5
2nd shot from middle right pin shot in left target =0
3rd shot from middle right pin to right target =0 , shot from wrong pin
4 shot from outside right pin at right target = 0 shot from wrong pin
5 shot from outside left pin at left target =0 too many arrows
So the most he should recieve from this target would be a 4 or possibly a 3 if the 4 replaces the five shot into the left target.
Come on Field or Britsite you are needed here for this. 



First shot was OK since he shot from the correct stake and also at the correct LEFT SIDE target..>IF on a FAN there are two target faces, then the LEFT target is shot from the two LEFT stakes, and the RIGHT side target is shot from the RIGHT two stakes. You cannot shoot 3 and 1....

SO:

First shot = 5 points shot correctly.
2nd shot = 0 points..incorrect target face
3rd shot from left part of RIGHT set of stakes...into correct target = 5- whatever he scored on that arrow since it was from the correct stake and sequence. 
4th shot is a ZERO if he didn't shoot the LEFT SIDE stake at the left target.
5th shot would also be a zero since he shot too many arrows, and it was from the WRONG STAKE...

Thus the correct score is a "9"...For his first and 3rd shots being correct...but minus a point for shooting that 5th arrow. You score the LOWEST arrows..in this case a "5" and a "4" and deduct a point for shooting one too many arrows.


He could have saved himself points by SKIPPING the one arrow /wrong stake and NOT shooting the 5th arrow...and potentially taking a scrambling 14 or 15 instead of the "9" he ended up with. 

Works the same way with a walk-up...if you shoot two from the 45 yard stake on the w/u...then to stop yourself from losing more points, you SKIP the 40 yard block all together, since your 2nd arrow was at the wrong stake (ZERO), then you move to the 35 yard stake for your 3rd arrow...which MUST be shot from 35 yards to score fully, then shoot your 4th arrow from the 30 yard stake properly...and DO NOT EVER shoot the 5th arrow unless you have a (witnessed bounce out or pass thru). .So if you pay attention and do it "right" for the rest of the way and get all "5's" then you scramble for a "15"...but mess up and shoot that 3rd shot from 40 yards and continue shooting the 35 yd. stake and the 30 (resulting in a 5th shot)....and you'll net a "4" for the target...(if you shoot a 5th arrow from 30 yards, that is).

Just take your licking of the zero for the FIRST shot from the wrong stake, skip the next stake and pick up with your, as in the example, 3rd shot from the CORRECT stake. Any other way will cost you dearly.....
field14


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Field, shouldnt his third shot have been from the far right pin and not shot from the inner right pin? So wouldnt his third shot from the inner pin also been a zero since by the time he shot his third shot he should have been on the outer right pin?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Field, shouldnt his third shot have been from the far right pin and not shot from the inner right pin? So wouldnt his third shot from the inner pin also been a zero since by the time he shot his third shot he should have been on the outer right pin?


Ah, HA! I think you are correct, indeed! Thus, that is a ZERO too, and his score would then be a total of "4" for the target, and not a "9" because he shot that 5th arrow. The ONLY arrow that scores is the FIRST Arrow (a "5" minus the point for shooting the one extra arrow).

I need to better analyze and apparently wasn't thinking straight either...but now you see how "CLEAR" those rules are really "written" don't you? hahaha.

It gets complicated, and it always pays to think things thru before shooting that next arrow...on a FAN or a WALKUP...NEVER shoot two arrows from the same stake...and if you do...skip that next stake all together and THEN continue, but do NOT shoot that 5th arrow...it WILL cost you yet another point. You cannot cover up a "mistake" like this with a 5th arrow....UNLESS there is a WITNESSED pass-thru or bounce-out, and then that 5th arrow is supposed to be clearly MARKED so everyone knows which one it is.

One other thing...it is required to NUMBER your arrows on an animal round. Be sure to shoot them IN ORDER, #1, #2, and #3, too. Of course, no need to shoot another arrow if the one you just shot hits anywhere in the SCORING AREAS of the animal. You won't recover any "extra" points for it.

field14


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

So the answer is 3. That's what I said DC would give him.

1st = 5 in left target
2nd= hit left target as a 4 but scores 0 for wrong target
3rd = in right target hits a 5 but scores 0 from wrong stake
4th = in right target hits a 5 but scores a zero for wrong stake and wrong target. 
5th arrow in left target hits a 5 but scores a zero for being 5th arrow and -1 for being a 5th arrow. Now there are 3 of his arrows in the left target nulling the two fives and counting the lowest scoring arrow a 4 - 1 = 3

Hornet I think you got lucky with the score given. But I could be wrong.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

field14 said:


> Ah, HA! I think you are correct, indeed! Thus, that is a ZERO too, and his score would then be a total of "4" for the target, and not a "9" because he shot that 5th arrow. The ONLY arrow that scores is the FIRST Arrow (a "5" minus the point for shooting the one extra arrow).
> 
> I need to better analyze and apparently wasn't thinking straight either...but now you see how "CLEAR" those rules are really "written" don't you? hahaha.
> 
> ...



If this is indeed correct, and I have no need to doubt you, I find it interesting that the NFAA is WAY more strict about the sequence of shots outdoors as indoors. It seems as though the sequence in which the arrows are shot is more important than the actual execution of a shot from a stake. This punishment to me far out ways the fouls committed. 

In indoors, as long as an arrow touches a scoring area, it is scored, regardless of whether it was shot at the correct spot. You don't even have to maintain any certain shot sequence within a given target face. Yet outdoors, if you make a mistake, it is more important to get back on sequence than it is to shoot arrows from stakes.

I smell an agenda item cooking here. While I agree whole heartedly that 2 mistakes were made by this example shooter, there were still 3 arrows shot from the proper stake into the proper target face. To penalize the shooter by only scoring 1 arrow total, minus penalty point, is indeed excessive. To most shooters that this would happen to, a 7 point penalty is plenty to get the point across. A 16 or 17 point penalty is just too much.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

What I really want to know is does the group stuck behind all of this get the extra points that were lost I mean we were just sitting there waiting.. and waiting :shade::shade: I think that this is just Karma from discussing it for umpteen hours earlier...ukey:ukey:

Also if the "hypothetical" archer was from a foreign country would the rules be different? :mg::mg::mg:


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

araz2114 said:


> What I really want to know is does the group stuck behind all of this get the extra points that were lost I mean we were just sitting there waiting.. and waiting :shade::shade: I think that this is just Karma from discussing it for umpteen hours earlier...ukey:ukey:
> 
> Also if the "hypothetical" archer was from a foreign country would the rules be different? :mg::mg::mg:


:chortle: :chortle: :chortle:


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Spoon , how do you figure there were three arrows shot from the proper position into the proper target, there wasnt. The only arrow that was shot corrrectly was the very first arrow. All others were out of sequence and 1 too many also.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Okay, I'll play too !

*1st arrow, inside left, left target = 5 because it was shot correctly

*2nd arrow, inside right, left target = 0 because it was shot at the wrong target

*3rd arrow, inside right again, right target = 0 because archer should have been shooting from either outside right OR outside left shooting positions

*4th arrow, outside right, right target = 5, 3rd arrow should/could have been shot from EITHER outside right OR outside left so I would argue 4th arrow could be shot at which stake was still remaining of the two, hence either choice still remained

*5th arrow, outside left, left target = 0, already should have covered all 4 positions with previous 4 arrows so 5th arrow would not count towards score

* -1 point for shooting too many arrows for the end

Hence I would say the archer should score 5+0+0+5-1 = 9; possibly 8, scoring a 4 for the first arrow, if the group could not determine of the 1st two arrows shot which was shot from the correct position and which was shot at the wrong target.

As Hinky noted, there is no sequence for a fan target, i.e. you do not have to rotate from left to right through the stakes, hence I believe the 4th arrow would count since it could be argued the arrow could have been shot from either the outside right OR outside left.

My take anyways. And correctly surmised, the rule book does not make how this should be scored very clear. Even the problems with shooting too many arrows from the farthermost stake on a walk-up are not overtly clear to most who have shot the game for years, let alone the general public who may only be exposed to field once or twice a year at most at a state or local event. If anything, would be nice to have someone on the RIC put together some "what-if" scenarios so people would have a better idea how to make the most out of a snafu'd situation .

>>-------->


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## browndiamond (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't understand?


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

what this is boiling down to is that there's no real way to determine which butt cheek is right and which is left.






browndiamond said:


> I don't understand?


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

So what if the shooter of the extra arrow realized his blunder and pulled what he believed to be that arrow from the target before any arrows were scored.
Then What? Zeros for everyone?
Remember why we # our arrows.(or should)


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

mag41vance said:


> So what if the shooter of the extra arrow realized his blunder and pulled what he believed to be that arrow from the target before any arrows were scored.
> Then What? Zeros for everyone?
> Remember why we # our arrows.(or should)




```

```
shooting too many arrows is a penalty... in which case, the highest scoring arrow(s) in the target gets removed and a -1 penality is assessed to the score ( per every extra arrow shot ) ...


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

rock monkey said:


> what this is boiling down to is that there's no real way to determine which butt cheek is right and which is left.


*You inferring that kissing the judge and scorekeeper in this scenerio is OK???!!!!??? *

.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *You inferring that kissing the judge and scorekeeper in this scenerio is OK???!!!!??? *
> 
> .


OK, I have now officially given up my score keeping responsibilities - from now on, I'll just be the arrow puller. That is, if there is NOT an electric fence behind the target. :mg:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Spoon , how do you figure there were three arrows shot from the proper position into the proper target, there wasnt. The only arrow that was shot corrrectly was the very first arrow. All others were out of sequence and 1 too many also.


This is a little long winded so I apologize, but I promise it's worth the read. 

Okay, I just went and read the rules, and re-read the rules and went back and checked again just to make sure. 

In the NFAA Constitution and By-Laws, there is no rule that states that the arrows must be shot in sequence on a fan target. I think that is a popular misconception that has been handed down over the years kinda like the "Tie goes to the runner" rule in baseball. That doesn't exist either.

The rules that I have found regarding this particular "hypothetical" situation are as follows:

Article IV, section H, rule 3:

When shooting at butts with multiple target faces, the first 2 shooters will shoot the bottom target faces. When target faces are placed side by side (i.e. 50 cm.) the archer on the left will shoot the left target face; the archer on the right will shoot the right target face. On fan positions the same applies, except each archer will shoot two arrows at each target. Any arrow striking the wrong target shall be considered a miss and may not be re-shot.

Article IV Section I Rule 10:

An archer who shoots arrows at the target in excess of the prescribed number shall lose the arrow or arrows of higher value in all NFAA rounds. A penalty of one point will be assessed for each arrow shot over the prescribed numbers.

These rules say that an arrow must be shot from each shooting position but it does not say that they must be shot in sequence or that any arrow shot out of sequence is scored a zero. It's just not there. The only reference to shooting arrows in order is in the Hunter round on the 20cm face. All arrows must be shot in order from top to bottom or bottom to top. The penalty for shooting an arrow into the wrong target is that the arrow is scored a zero, if it can be identified. If the group is uncertain which arrow was shot from the incorrect stake, an arrow of higher value(which in practical application means the highest scoring arrow) shall be scored a zero.

So, to summarize this mess. The shooter in question shot 5 arrows from 4 stakes. If the arrow shot into the wrong target face can be positively identified, it is not scored and counted a zero. The second shot from the same stake is not allowed and therefore scored a zero and also. The remainder of the arrows were shot from legal shooting positions into the correct target faces. However that fact that 5 arrows were shot incurs a 1 point penalty.

Therefore, if the group can positively identify the arrow shot into the wrong target the score for the target would be 14(5,5,5,0,-1). If the group can NOT identify the arrow shot into the incorrect target, the arrow of highest value is removed and the score would be 13(5,5,4,0,-1).

Now I will say that if there is a rule in black and white that I missed, I will revisit my position on this. I just couldn't find anything that would score it otherwise.


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Spoon13 said:


> This is a little long winded so I apologize, but I promise it's worth the read.
> 
> Okay, I just went and read the rules, and re-read the rules and went back and checked again just to make sure.
> 
> ...



*WHOOOOOooooo....HOOOOOOOoooooo.... OK...Spoon...I will share the WIN with you!!!!!!!

I do think you need to write a proposal for clarification of shooting the fan to be incuded in the 2010 Agenda Items....

You are the EXPERT now.....

Good Job! :wink:*

.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Spoon13 said:


> This is a little long winded so I apologize, but I promise it's worth the read.
> 
> Okay, I just went and read the rules, and re-read the rules and went back and checked again just to make sure.
> 
> ...


check this... 

first shot=5
2nd shot= 0
3rd shot= 0
4th shot= 5

5th shot doesnt count.. its removed( and it's one of the highest scored values in this scenario ) , and -1 point..= 9

only the first 4 shot can be counted... lane finished.

??


i got action shots....


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

south-paaw said:


> check this...
> 
> first shot=5
> 2nd shot= 0
> ...


You can not remove the highest scoring arrow AND issue a zero for the same offense.

Shots 1,4,5 were all shot from legal stakes into the correct target face and should be scored.

Shot 2 was into the wrong target.

Shot 3 was a second shot from the same stake.

You still score 2 arrows from the left face and 1 from the right face in this instance. The only thing that is left to be determined is whether or not the group can identify the arrow shot from the wrong stake into the left target face. If they can then it is removed, if not the highest scoring arrow is removed and all remaining arrows are scored. 

You can not assess 3 penalties for 2 "fouls".:wink:


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

I think you can Spoon. 1st offense was shooting at the wrong target which rules state is scored a 0 for sure. 2nd offense was shooting from an incorrect position (2x from same stake is not allowed either). 3rd offense was shooting too many arrows. Penalized 3 times, hence you only get to score 2 of the 5 arrows shot and take the -1 penalty point. imo  Not sure how it can be argued that making 3 mistakes still nets you a chance to score 3 of the 5 arrows?

>>------->


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Spoon13 said:


> *You can not remove the highest scoring arrow AND issue a zero for the same offense.*
> Shots 1,4,5 were all shot from legal stakes into the correct target face and should be scored.
> 
> Shot 2 was into the wrong target.
> ...




```

```
idk.... ???
remove and subtract 1... is the way i was " taught " ... but it's still a 5th shot.. so it doesnt exist ...if only 4 had been shot..... score = 10


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> if only 4 had been shot..... score = 10


Way I would interpret as well. No "bonus" make-ups for making 2 mistakes by then shooting the 5th arrow.

What the archer should have done after shooting the wrong target face would have been to move onto the next stake and shoot his 3rd arrow (an "oh chit" would have been acceptable as well, imo ), then the last unshot stake and shot his 4th arrow....as F14 stated, could have salvaged at worst a 14 (if could not tell which arrow was incorrectly shot into the left target and had to take the 4), possibly a 15. My understanding anyway .

>>------->


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

CHPro said:


> I think you can Spoon. 1st offense was shooting at the wrong target which rules state is scored a 0 for sure. 2nd offense was shooting from an incorrect position (2x from same stake is not allowed either). 3rd offense was shooting too many arrows. Penalized 3 times, hence you only get to score 2 of the 5 arrows shot and take the -1 penalty point. imo  Not sure how it can be argued that making 3 mistakes still nets you a chance to score 3 of the 5 arrows?
> 
> >>------->



My point is that there were still 3 arrows shot from a stake into a correct target face for that stake. 

Shot 2 was into the wrong target. Offense 1.

Shot 3 was a second shot from the same stake. Offense 2.

Shot 5 is a scorable arrow since it was released from an unshot shooting position into it's correct target face but does incur the 1 point penalty for shooting more than 4 arrows.

You take two of the 5 arrows in the target faces out and score the rest, then you deduct 1 point for an arrow in excess of 4 total.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> Shot 5 is a scorable arrow since it was released from an unshot shooting position into it's correct target face but does incur the 1 point penalty for shooting more than 4 arrows.


That's just it though, Shot 5 is also an offense and should result in another, highest scoring, arrow be pulled from either of the targets. NFAA rules clearly state if you shoot more than the prescribed number of arrows for the end you lose 1 of your highest scoring arrows and take a -1 penalty. Basically you already have 2 zeroes (wrong target 2nd shot and wrong stake 3rd shot), 1 scoring arrow (1st shot) and you're only allowed to shoot 4 arrows altogether. Which means you can only shoot one additional arrow for score from either the far right or far left position (since haven't shot from either of those 2 yet). I think common sense would dictate that you cannot, by shooting a 5th arrow, have a result that essentially eliminates 1 of the 2 mistakes. In fact, there technically really isn't an open stake still remaining to be shot from when the 5th shot was taken, as that was the position the 3rd shot should have been shot from (since the 4th was already shot from the far right into the right target).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.......until I hear otherwise from someone on the NFAA RIC, lol !

>>-------->


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

CHPro said:


> That's just it though, Shot 5 is also an offense and should result in another, highest scoring, arrow be pulled from either of the targets. NFAA rules clearly state if you shoot more than the prescribed number of arrows for the end you lose 1 of your highest scoring arrows and take a -1 penalty. Basically you already have 2 zeroes (wrong target 2nd shot and wrong stake 3rd shot), 1 scoring arrow (1st shot) and you're only allowed to shoot 4 arrows altogether. Which means you can only shoot one additional arrow for score from either the far right or far left position (since haven't shot from either of those 2 yet). I think common sense would dictate that you cannot, by shooting a 5th arrow, have a result that essentially eliminates 1 of the 2 mistakes. In fact, there technically really isn't an open stake still remaining to be shot from when the 5th shot was taken, as that was the position the 3rd shot should have been shot from (since the 4th was already shot from the far right into the right target).
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.......until I hear otherwise from someone on the NFAA RIC, lol !
> 
> >>-------->


You silly kids I gave you the RIC's ruling in my first post!!!!!


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