# IBO Known Yardage Class Petition



## 3dbowmaster

Its already proven itself in the other organization. If its there fri when I'm there I'll sign it


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## treeman65

Brian you can go ahead and sign my name in big bold letters. James crooks
We will make the long trips to Asa and not renew our memberships at IBO until they start a known distance class
I have tried to talk to them several times on the issue and they won't listen


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## Hawkins305

If there was a known yardage class I'd join and hit as many of the shoots as I could afford. ☺


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## nochance

This petition approach worked for Pro Hunter class. Best of luck to you. Now's the chance for all who want this to make it happen.


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## ca1224

If IBO had known yardage like the ASA i would shoot the IBO also, Good luck with the petition hopefully they get some know classes.


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## schmel_me

I shoot asa for many reasons but ibo needs to start evolving. Would def. hit an ibo or two if this happens.


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## JV NC

I'm only asking.....because I don't know.

Why is known ydg. popular with so many? So we don't have to get into a debate....is it more about the shooter not liking; being good at; etc... shooting unknown? Or, is it more about the people setting up the courses not adhering to the max ydg parameters?

Something else?


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## reylamb

JV NC said:


> I'm only asking.....because I don't know.
> 
> Why is known ydg. popular with so many? So we don't have to get into a debate....is it more about the shooter not liking; being good at; etc... shooting unknown? Or, is it more about the people setting up the courses not adhering to the max ydg parameters?
> 
> Something else?


For me it is simple.....I just don't have time to practice judging yardage.......so I have much more fun shooting the known class.


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## treeman65

reylamb said:


> for me it is simple.....i just don't have time to practice judging yardage.......so i have much more fun shooting the known class.


x2.


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## treeman65

JV NC said:


> I'm only asking.....because I don't know.
> 
> Why is known ydg. popular with so many? So we don't have to get into a debate....is it more about the shooter not liking; being good at; etc... shooting unknown? Or, is it more about the people setting up the courses not adhering to the max ydg parameters?
> 
> Something else?


So people work to many hours to spend time practicing judge or plain just don't want to judge
Another thing is I live in northern pa so it is impossible to get out a judge any targets before the first couple ASA shoots of the year
**** we still have snow here
My question is why are so many people afraid of known distance
I have heard the crap excuses that 3d is about judging I say bs these people just can't shoot worth a crap anyways


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## ARCHERYXPERT

They already have that class guys. It's called the practice butts.


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## ca1224

reylamb said:


> for me it is simple.....i just don't have time to practice judging yardage.......so i have much more fun shooting the known class.


x3,


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## DCPA

Will the petition be at the World Championship at Holiday Valley?


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## schmel_me

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> They already have that class guys. It's called the practice butts.




Always gotta be one of those guys.....


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## hoosierredneck

JV NC said:


> I'm only asking.....because I don't know.
> 
> Why is known ydg. popular with so many? So we don't have to get into a debate....is it more about the shooter not liking; being good at; etc... shooting unknown? Or, is it more about the people setting up the courses not adhering to the max ydg parameters?
> 
> Something else?


That's why i left.


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## trumankayak

How about bringing the petition to the asa shoots ?
Alot of us do not attend the ibo shoots anymore. I'm sure you would get alot of signatures. Easily in the thousands by the end of the year. Ibo has stated that they would have to have a separate range. Im certain that the class would be more than enough to pay for an extra range.


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## chadbrochill17

Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


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## jimb

chadbrochill17 said:


> Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


Their trying to if the IBO would offer it, its called known yardage 3D and it has been around for a really long time. That's why they shoot ASA and NFAA. By the way, if they offer known yardage just how does that effect you?


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## treeman65

chadbrochill17 said:


> Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


Way to promote the sport. I would like to see you shoot an known 50 range and bet you wouldn't shoot even


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## treeman65

trumankayak said:


> How about bringing the petition to the asa shoots ?
> Alot of us do not attend the ibo shoots anymore. I'm sure you would get alot of signatures. Easily in the thousands by the end of the year. Ibo has stated that they would have to have a separate range. Im certain that the class would be more than enough to pay for an extra range.


Great idea
I would be willing to meet up with Brian and bring it to the Asa if he wants


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## trumankayak

chadbrochill17 said:


> Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


Homie
I grew up in the ibo in the 90's
Barkin up the wrong tree. 
And yeah come shoot a k45 / k50 course and tell us how easy it is


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## schmel_me

A lot of our local shoots have made the open class a known yardage class. It has definently helped way more than hurt the class. I'm not bad a judging and I'm sure I could practice it more if I had time. For me the known yardage is fun!


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## arrowpuller

I have always been a firm believer that the sport of 3d should be a judge yardage and make the shot sport...however, i too find that there does not seem to be enough hours in a day to get everything done and still have time to get into the woods with my rangefinder to practice my yardage..i still do it but nowhere near as often as i used to .
If marked yardage is what is needed to grow our sport...then so be it...
I, for one am not fooled into thinking that if someone gave me the yardage that my scores would skyrocket,,,it might keep me from the occasional yardage mistake but i still have to make the shot.


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## tuckerjt07

I'm a bow hunter first but looking to see if I can become a competitive player at the 3D game. For me it comes down to what your ultimate goal is. Starting out judging yardage intimidates me, arrows are expensive, embarrassment, for some, kills sport retention rate. Would I love to be able to judge yardage like a pro? Yes. Am I anywhere near that? Not even close. 

It also has very little value for me as a hunter outside due to how we hunt here. Most shots are 35 yards and in and are relatively known yardages because you can pace off that bush or tree and make a note when setting the stand. I for one would love to see known yardage become bigger and not have a negative stigma attached. It would open the door to many to join.


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## hoosierredneck

i don't really matter if they do decide to put a known class in,if they don't change there mind set on how to run a national shoot.i still see a.s.a getting bigger by the year and ibo staying at the same numbers,jmo


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## DCPA

I would love to shoot known yardage. There are not any ASA shoots close to me or I would definitely shoot ASA. Some of us just can't get the time off of work to travel and shoot ASA. Guess I'll just have to keep shooting IBO at unknown yardage. 

I've heard from a few IBO officials, that they won't do a known yardage class because the IBO is based on hunting and judging yardage is part of hunting. Well if that's the case, where does the judging yardage come into play when your shooting 320fps out to 35yds in the hunter class of IBO. The fact is whether you know the yardage of not, You still have to make the shot! Not trying to bash any organization, but this is just my opinion.


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## rohpenguins

I signed it and from what I have been told by a good source is there is support for it t the director and rep levevel but Brian Marcum hates the idea and kills it... Bring the heat boys


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## 3dbowmaster

I wish I could've signed it but jumped on the wagon to shoot as soon as I got there and it was a monsoon when I got back Friday evening...


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## schmel_me

I don't want to bash ibo but I have to poke just a bit.Im for all competitive shooting organizations. But...They have always been the "that's the way we've always done it" crowd. I sincerely hope the tweak and evolve there program to draw new and keep current shooters. If that means making some changes so be it. 
The biggest changes facing them is addressing the demand for a known yardage class, and putting a format in place that adds credibility to the scores.


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## salmon killer

I have shot marked and un marked 3 D for years, I know for me if I know how far the target is my game goes way up.But I like both some times its good to shoot unmarked which is most of the shoots I go to are.But im fairly good at yardage judging.I guess I just don't care just bring it !


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## jimb

I shoot both and I would like to have the choice to shoot known or unknown

I did shoot the Spring Nationals today, really long day. I shot well, ones I missed were either over top of or under, so back to this yardage thing.


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## pennbc07

Ok I'll post a few questions here no one has asked, with this petition what known class would try to bring in and under what setup(open or hunter)? I wish the best of luck to you by trying to bring change, Stoz was able to do it last year and you should have alot more support.


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## ARCHERYXPERT

I don't have a issue with known yardage comp, however, if the ibo adds another handful of those classes we all might just have a class to ourselves.


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## hoytxcutter

A few questions I have would be what add expense would there be to the host club to set courses for the known yardage class or classes? How many new shooters would it attract? Would it just attract shooters from the classes that already exists?


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## JV NC

I'm glad no one took my question as anything other than a sincere curiosity. I have nothing against shooting known ydg., and may in the future. As long as everyone in the same class is playing by the same rules..............I don't see how anyone not shooting that class should give a rat's ass.


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## #1phinsfan

We travel to all the ibo shoots and there's around 9 of us. We all signed the petition and guess what? None of us will shoot it but, we all agreed as part of an "organization" everyone should get a chance to compete. There's enough buzz around this topic that it's obvious that it will attract shooters. Is it everyone's cup of tea? No so it's this easy... Just sign up for the unknown classes. Believe it or not its that simple if you want to shoot known do it if not don't. But to sit and type that known class is easy or unknown old school is rediculous. I Think it's safe to say that in this sport it ultimately comes down to making the shot. As an organization it needs to be open to ALL shooters and if it adds 50-100 shooters that's a lot of revenue and I'm willing to bet you known guys will have a class next year.


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## treeman65

#1phinsfan said:


> We travel to all the ibo shoots and there's around 9 of us. We all signed the petition and guess what? None of us will shoot it but, we all agreed as part of an "organization" everyone should get a chance to compete. There's enough buzz around this topic that it's obvious that it will attract shooters. Is it everyone's cup of tea? No so it's this easy... Just sign up for the unknown classes. Believe it or not its that simple if you want to shoot known do it if not don't. But to sit and type that known class is easy or unknown old school is rediculous. I Think it's safe to say that in this sport it ultimately comes down to making the shot. As an organization it needs to be open to ALL shooters and if it adds 50-100 shooters that's a lot of revenue and I'm willing to bet you known guys will have a class next year.


Thank you for being a true sportsman


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## BowHuntnKY

#1phinsfan said:


> We travel to all the ibo shoots and there's around 9 of us. We all signed the petition and guess what? None of us will shoot it but, we all agreed as part of an "organization" everyone should get a chance to compete. There's enough buzz around this topic that it's obvious that it will attract shooters. Is it everyone's cup of tea? No so it's this easy... Just sign up for the unknown classes. Believe it or not its that simple if you want to shoot known do it if not don't. But to sit and type that known class is easy or unknown old school is rediculous. I Think it's safe to say that in this sport it ultimately comes down to making the shot. As an organization it needs to be open to ALL shooters and if it adds 50-100 shooters that's a lot of revenue and I'm willing to bet you known guys will have a class next year.





treeman65 said:


> Thank you for being a true sportsman


X2

One of the best things ive read on AT in a while. IBO puts in any type of open class known yardage, and ill be at bedford and marengo


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## trumankayak

BowHuntnKY said:


> X2
> 
> One of the best things ive read on AT in a while. IBO puts in any type of open class known yardage, and ill be at bedford and marengo


Me too 
Even in the snow balls chance the ibo changes their stance on known yardage I doubt it would happen this year.


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## wpk

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> They already have that class guys. It's called the practice butts.


Lmao way to be closed minded. Attitudes like that is why the IBO attendance is down. What does it hurt?


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## stoz

I think if ibo wants to grow known is only way it will. Imo


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## rohpenguins

Stoz I agree... I think if there is enough support and enough noise is made it will happen next yr...


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## sagecreek

I don't like to shoot known. To me, judging is half the fun. But, I don't mind if anyone else wants to shoot known. The more the merrier. I'll just make fun of you for shooting it. :wink:


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## tshoyt23

I enjoy shooting unknown and wouldn't shoot known, but that is just my preference. I would love to see the IBO grow and I agree that this is one of the few ways we will start to see that happen. I have absolutely no arguement against a known class. I think the more archers the better. I love walking up to the practice butts and seeing so many people shooting, to see so many people who love the sport as much as I do. People that I share a common thread with. I don't ever want to see that go away. Growth of the sport and the organizations only help to keep this going. Plus, honestly, if the IBO has more shooters then there is more money towards their actual cause.... More people will pay to become members and more people will shoot the bowhunter defense ranges. There will be far more money available to help protect not just archery but the passtime of hunting as well.


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## Kstigall

chadbrochill17 said:


> Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


and the only people that shoot unknown 3D classes are just bad at shooting. :doh:


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## Kstigall

stoz said:


> I think if ibo wants to grow known is only way it will. Imo


The IBO really needs to do more than just add known classes they need an overall attitude and tournament structure adjustment. When I got into national 3D about 9 years ago I really thought the IBO would be my thing. After competing in both IBO and ASA tournaments I found that the ASA was far, far ahead of the IBO as an organization. The IBO is light years behind the ASA in many ways. About the only thing the IBO has that is better than the ASA is the targets. Rineharts are infinitely better than McKJunks though I must admit the McK's have improved.

I shot K45 and now I paly in Senior Men's Known in ASA and quite honestly if IBO added a Known class tomorrow it would not interest me. The IBO is simply NOT a competition archery organization. It is a "Fun" archery organization. I think the IBO only still exists because the ASA has not really made a commitment to take IBO's market.

If the ASA moves one of the Ft. Benning shoots and the Paris Texas shoot to the south-central Ohio and south-central Indiana areas we'll see the IBO's weakness.

At the very first ASA shoot with a Senior Known class there were 43 archers and Florida is a traditionally lower turn out venue. The second ASA shoot had 58 in Senior Men's Known. I bet the shoot in London, Ky will have many more than 65 in Senior Men's Known..... In Florida 2 of the 5 guys in my group had NEVER shot a 3D tournament. THAT is money, brand new customers in an age bracket with probably the greatest disposable income!

The Known 45 ASA class began in 2009 and immediately had great success. Obviously the IBO has their collective heads stuck in the sand. If they didn't have sole custody of a _huge _3D market they would have disappeared by now.


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## nochance

Never shot ASA, I'm sure I would enjoy it. But ASA does not exist in the northeast. regions has disappeared as well in The NE. I do not want to shoot known but I'm all for it if other people do. Let me know when ASA is coming to the Northeast.


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## greimer

JV NC said:


> I'm only asking.....because I don't know.
> 
> Why is known ydg. popular with so many? So we don't have to get into a debate....is it more about the shooter not liking; being good at; etc... shooting unknown? Or, is it more about the people setting up the courses not adhering to the max ydg parameters?
> 
> Something else?


For me I don't have time to practice judging and when I am hunting I am using my range finding. I can't remember the last time I went hunting without my range finder.


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## Kighty7

As of today, I have over 50 signatures from the weekend. I did not get to the shoot till lat Friday but it was at the Dead Center Archery Booth for people to sign. I am unable to make it to the Bedford shoot due to being a full time soccer coach and having a tournament that weekend. If anyone is willing to take the petition sheets to Bedford, let me know, I will mail them to you and you can mail them back to me. I can simply email them to you as well and you can send me back the signed sheets. Any guys who have local clubs, let me know and I will get stuff out to you as well. All I need is the person's name, IBO#, address and signature. I will compile all the petition sheets and get them to the IBO. I will have the petition at World's as well. I would like to see the IBO grow as well. I live in NW PA and with my work schedule, I can't make it to any ASA shoots. I have shot Hunter Class, MBR and this year I am shooting Semi Pro. I just love archery and believe there should be an opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport! 
I f you would like to help out, send me your email and I will get stuff out to you.
If you want to sign the petition, email me your name, IBO #, address and signature and I will add you to the petition. If you are not an IBO member and are an ASA member, I believe we can do the same thing as well.

[email protected]

By the way, I had a great time at the Spring National Shoot as it was enjoyable and beautiful! Great courses set up on both days! Keep up the great work!


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## boner

For me I can judge yardage ok, not great. That's why I carry a range finder hunting. I know what distance the deer or turkeys are at that I shoot, and I feel that is more ethical. I really don't shoot competitive archery the help my hunting skills anyway. This kinda goes back to the days when compounds came on the scene, and the traditional die hard would says... well you shot him with a compound though. To each his own


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## Hawkins305

trumankayak said:


> How about bringing the petition to the asa shoots ?
> Alot of us do not attend the ibo shoots anymore. I'm sure you would get alot of signatures. Easily in the thousands by the end of the year. Ibo has stated that they would have to have a separate range. Im certain that the class would be more than enough to pay for an extra range.


Great ideal.


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## Hawkins305

Kighty7 said:


> As of today, I have over 50 signatures from the weekend. I did not get to the shoot till lat Friday but it was at the Dead Center Archery Booth for people to sign. I am unable to make it to the Bedford shoot due to being a full time soccer coach and having a tournament that weekend. If anyone is willing to take the petition sheets to Bedford, let me know, I will mail them to you and you can mail them back to me. I can simply email them to you as well and you can send me back the signed sheets. Any guys who have local clubs, let me know and I will get stuff out to you as well. All I need is the person's name, IBO#, address and signature. I will compile all the petition sheets and get them to the IBO. I will have the petition at World's as well. I would like to see the IBO grow as well. I live in NW PA and with my work schedule, I can't make it to any ASA shoots. I have shot Hunter Class, MBR and this year I am shooting Semi Pro. I just love archery and believe there should be an opportunity for everyone to enjoy the sport!
> I f you would like to help out, send me your email and I will get stuff out to you.
> If you want to sign the petition, email me your name, IBO #, address and signature and I will add you to the petition. If you are not an IBO member and are an ASA member, I believe we can do the same thing as well.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> By the way, I had a great time at the Spring National Shoot as it was enjoyable and beautiful! Great courses set up on both days! Keep up the great work!



IBO Known Yardage Class Petition, 
Can this not be made into a PDF file so we could use Adobe program to open it and sign our names to it?


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## trumankayak

Hawkins305 said:


> IBO Known Yardage Class Petition,
> Can this not be made into a PDF file so we could use Adobe program to open it and sign our names to it?


Yeah
Pm it to me
I'll sign it and pass it on


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## arrowblaster

Kstigall said:


> and the only people that shoot unknown 3D classes are just bad at shooting. :doh:


Like all the pros. Personally, if I want to shoot marked yardage, I would shoot indoor Vegas, or other indoor. And if I shot ASA, it would be an unmarked class, all part of the challenge! I'm all for the IBO growing, and if they add this class it's fine. No sense in arguing who's able to shoot good or not!


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## grandd7

Whatever makes the sport grow is ok with me


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## victor001

In my neck of the woods , known shoot's get a lot more public going to them then unknown shoot's . I think a lot of new shooter's are worried about losing arrow's . Plus most say they use a rangefinder for hunting . Hope IBO is open to change .


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## Supermag1

I'm going to ask one question about this, logistically, how is this going to work within IBO's current continuous line style of operations? By this I mean, how are you going to keep the known shooters from sharing the yardages with their friends shooting unknown?


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## sagecreek

Supermag1 said:


> I'm going to ask one question about this, logistically, how is this going to work within IBO's current continuous line style of operations? By this I mean, how are you going to keep the known shooters from sharing the yardages with their friends shooting unknown?


Looks like Larry would have to set 240 targets instead of 200. Ouch


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## outbackarcher

245 to be exact. Lol.


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## sagecreek

outbackarcher said:


> 245 to be exact. Lol.


I don't know if Karl would make it or not. ha/ha


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## outbackarcher

He was dragging picking up around #175.


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## rohpenguins

Supermag1 said:


> I'm going to ask one question about this, logistically, how is this going to work within IBO's current continuous line style of operations? By this I mean, how are you going to keep the known shooters from sharing the yardages with their friends shooting unknown?


I hate to say it but it happens already. Buddies shoot different ranges and then share information. Its sad that it happens but it does. I think the know yardage class could be shot from the green and blue stake ranges, just add another stake to the range for known yardage.


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## Supermag1

rohpenguins said:


> I hate to say it but it happens already. Buddies shoot different ranges and then share information. Its sad that it happens but it does. I think the know yardage class could be shot from the green and blue stake ranges, just add another stake to the range for known yardage.


Sharing yardages like that is A LOT different than giving them the official yardage sheet for that range. For one, it would take some SERIOUS effort to remember all yardages on a 10 target range, much less all 40. Second, I talked to some friends of mine after a shoot and they all shot together and were laughing about a couple of targets where they all shot 11s and then asked each other what they shot it for, no two of the three had the same yardage (and there was a former MBR World Champ and an current multiple podium ASA Pro AM finisher in that group).

Shooting on the same course with different stakes isn't going to work either because it's pretty dang easy to see that the green stake is 6 feet in front of the polka dot stake or that the blue stake is 9 feet behind the polka dot stake. Polka dot stake being know BTW.


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## enabear722

sagecreek said:


> I don't know if Karl would make it or not. ha/ha


Not sure about this? Do we have too? :mg:


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## mgs270

So what your saying is the IBO has skill standards you either can't or don't want to meet. You prefer the ASA who lets archers keep the training wheels on for life?


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## treeman65

mgs270 said:


> So what your saying is the IBO has skill standards you either can't or don't want to meet. You prefer the ASA who lets archers keep the training wheels on for life?


You no clue what you are talking about with asa


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## mgs270

Is a staff shooter who shoots Novice year after year and can shoot even or over repeatedly in ASA really a Novice in any form of reasonable , logical definition commonly accepted ? OPEN C with full target paraphernalia was too hard without all the ranges given to them at 40 yds. K45 is just too long. perfect. IBO cant crack the south because no one wants a lil range estimating challenge with they're 3D down here.


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## trumankayak

mgs270 said:


> So what your saying is the IBO has skill standards you either can't or don't want to meet. You prefer the ASA who lets archers keep the training wheels on for life?


Lets look at the numbers 
Numbers dont lie. Known classes are just getting more popular. The asa has plenty of classes for those who wish to judge yardage. 
Open "A" is 50 yard max all unknown. Its virtually identical to "MBO" in the ibo. MBO has always been the class for the archers that are generally at the next level. The really good ones eventually go semi pro then on to pro. Same as open a in the ASA.

I took the numbers from the last asa shoot last month. And the numbers from the first leg of the ibo triple crown last year. 
Ibo mbo - 165 shooters
Asa open a - 108 shooters

Now the interesting part:
Same shoot
ASA phenix city last month
Open a 108 shooters all unknown
Open b shooters 138 half known/unknown
Open c 164 shooters all unknown.
Known 45 - 122 shooters
Known 50 -53 shooters

End of discussion


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## bowjoe1800

trumankayak said:


> Lets look at the numbers
> Numbers dont lie. Known classes are just getting more popular. The asa has plenty of classes for those who wish to judge yardage.
> Open "A" is 50 yard max all unknown. Its virtually identical to "MBO" in the ibo. MBO has always been the class for the archers that are generally at the next level. The really good ones eventually go semi pro then on to pro. Same as open a in the ASA.
> 
> I took the numbers from the last asa shoot last month. And the numbers from the first leg of the ibo triple crown last year.
> Ibo mbo - 165 shooters
> Asa open a - 108 shooters
> 
> Now the interesting part:
> Same shoot
> ASA phenix city last month
> Open a 108 shooters all unknown
> Open b shooters 138 half known/unknown
> Open c 164 shooters all unknown.
> Known 45 - 122 shooters
> Known 50 -53 shooters
> 
> End of discussion


OPEN C is all known.


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## trumankayak

My bad typo


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## mgs270

Open C is now full target rig novice class ,all known, hence the 170 shooters. I guess Im just disappointed in 3D archers in general for so many wanting it made so easy?


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## trumankayak

mgs270 said:


> Open C is now full target rig novice class ,all known, hence the 170 shooters. I guess Im just disappointed in 3D archers in general for so many wanting it made so easy?


So what do you think you would score on an known range ?
Because its so easy and all .
I mean technically a 480 is possible 
Im just curious.


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## treeman65

mgs270 said:


> Open C is now full target rig novice class ,all known, hence the 170 shooters. I guess Im just disappointed in 3D archers in general for so many wanting it made so easy?


If it's so easy put the money and let's see you win an Asa in known distance class
I would bet you could not shoot even let alone up
Plus what is the big deal they offer known and unknown class you can shoot what you want


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## Kighty7

I will try to get the petition as a PDF today and post it on here so people can open it up and sign it. I still do not have an issue with people sending me an email with:

Name
Address
IBO/ASA#
Signature

I will see what I can do today!


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## Kighty7

I will have the Known Yardage Petition at the Dead Center Archery Booth for the 2nd Leg in Erie. I will leave it again at the Dead Center Archery booth. Please feel free to sign it to create a new class.

Kighty7


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## Kstigall

Known yardage won't succeed! Just look at the ASA......... Nobody wants Known distance 3D! 

I've shot with 3 different guys in Senior Known class this year at ASA tournaments that had never shot an ASA tournament only IBO. All 3 said they will be shooting more ASA and if it comes down to it will cut back on IBO.


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## Kighty7

Kstigall I hear you buddy! I am no where close to any ASA shoots and with a young family and full time job, it is hard to get to anything down south. I want to see the sport grow in any way possible. I know a lot of people who do not shoot IBO cause they only want to shoot the known yardage. I understand what they are saying, They use a range finder hunting so they can make the best, most ethical kill shot possible, why can't they go to a shoot and know the yardage to shoot for fun! We will see what happens and where things go!


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## Huntin Hard

What's your email address ?? PM if you'd like., I'll come back to IBO if they have a known class.


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## GreggWNY

The problem with getting the IBO to institute anything new that may actually grow the organization is.... the IBO itself. They have historically ignored the wishes of their membership and have run their organization as their own little kingdom. I and many others were hopeful that with new leadership there would be an attempt to grow the IBO but sadly, things have remained the same. You could have a poll where 98% of the members would ask for a known yardage class but if Mr. Marcum doesn't personally like it then you know it "ain't gonna happen".

Meanwhile the ASA who truly understands what their membership wants and has the savvy and know how to grow their organization continues to flourish and grow while the IBO continues to stagnate.


----------



## nochance

GreggWNY said:


> The problem with getting the IBO to institute anything new that may actually grow the organization is.... the IBO itself. They have historically ignored the wishes of their membership and have run their organization as their own little kingdom. I and many others were hopeful that with new leadership there would be an attempt to grow the IBO but sadly, things have remained the same. You could have a poll where 98% of the members would ask for a known yardage class but if Mr. Marcum doesn't personally like it then you know it "ain't gonna happen".
> 
> Meanwhile the ASA who truly understands what their membership wants and has the savvy and know how to grow their organization continues to flourish and grow while the IBO continues to stagnate.


Then go shoot ASA, we know IBO is not perfect but judging from the recent posts neither is ASA. Seems to be a lot of people on here trying to convince others not to go to IBO shoots. When ASA is a 3 hour drive maybe I'll give it try. Do what makes you happy.


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## carlosii

Without putting in a shotgun start and peer grouping I don't see how IBO can make Known work.


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## hoytxcutter

Known yardage 3D is like playing home run derby with a super ball.


----------



## josephcsylvia

Me personally I shoot known but judge the target before I range it for practice I also like shooting known because I feel it seperate better archers you can have a great archer who's poor at judging and it makes him feel like less of a competitor as far as why people are afraid of shooting known I feel its so when they make a poorly executed shot they can blame judging also if anyone is going to say to me that's not like realistic hunting save it because I range deer in the woods before I shoot them we owe it to the animal to make the most ethical shot so wouldnt it make sense to range it? Also if anyone still wants to state the needs to be more like hunting then we should all run to yhe next stake to get our heart rate up loose the bino's and cut shooting time down to 15 seconds lmao that would be like hunting!


----------



## GreggWNY

nochance said:


> Then go shoot ASA, we know IBO is not perfect but judging from the recent posts neither is ASA. Seems to be a lot of people on here trying to convince others not to go to IBO shoots. When ASA is a 3 hour drive maybe I'll give it try. Do what makes you happy.


Have you ever attended an ASA event? If you haven't then you should.

I do shoot ASA as well as IBO. Gives me the perfect perspective of everything that the IBO should be doing to improve their tournaments. 

The ASA may not be perfect but they are currently experiencing huge growth. The IBO is also not perfect and they are stagnating. Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Kstigall

carlosii said:


> Without putting in a shotgun start and peer grouping I don't see how IBO can make Known work.


Exactly! Plus a few other changes........



hoytxcutter said:


> Known yardage 3D is like playing home run derby with a super ball.


*Come and Get You some!*

There are some that know much about the IBO and don't like what they see.


----------



## Laars

At what point guys, does this become silly with all the different classes. 3-d shoots in the 90s we packed, with every club wanting to hold one. As more classes were added, and clubs were forced to have trophys for each class, but were told how much they could charge, it became not worth it to hold a shoot for the local clubs. I don't mean to put a knife in this, but I just went to my first shoot in 20 years, and thought it was a joke. Some classes have 2 or 3 people in them. I could care less about a trophy, give me a shoot where I have something to improve on. We are not "all winners". It means nothing for me to shoot against 2 other people. 

We should be cutting back on the number of classes, not increasing them. You want to grow the sport, do things that will help the clubs want to put a 3-d shoot on, instead of them losing money everytime they hold one, because they had to buy trophys for a class that has 3 people in it.


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## sagecreek

I love shooting the IBO and ASA shoots. Both are nice IMO. I love being in the woods slinging arrows at rubber animal targets.


----------



## nochance

GreggWNY said:


> Have you ever attended an ASA event? If you haven't then you should.
> 
> I do shoot ASA as well as IBO. Gives me the perfect perspective of everything that the IBO should be doing to improve their tournaments.
> 
> The ASA may not be perfect but they are currently experiencing huge growth. The IBO is also not perfect and they are stagnating. Draw your own conclusions.


as soon as they have one close to me I'll give it a try.


----------



## Kstigall

Laars said:


> At what point guys, does this become silly with all the different classes. 3-d shoots in the 90s we packed, with every club wanting to hold one. As more classes were added, and clubs were forced to have trophys for each class, but were told how much they could charge, it became not worth it to hold a shoot for the local clubs. I don't mean to put a knife in this, but I just went to my first shoot in 20 years, and thought it was a joke. Some classes have 2 or 3 people in them. I could care less about a trophy, give me a shoot where I have something to improve on. We are not "all winners". It means nothing for me to shoot against 2 other people.
> 
> We should be cutting back on the number of classes, not increasing them. You want to grow the sport, do things that will help the clubs want to put a 3-d shoot on, instead of them losing money everytime they hold one, because they had to buy trophys for a class that has 3 people in it.


The popularity of 3D archery did not decrease due to the increase in the number of classes. I was perfectly happy shooting unknown distance 3D and if the Known classes had not been created I'd still be shooting in an unknown distance class. The Known classes have become hugely popular in the ASA. The known classes have significantly increased the number of folks trying out competition 3D for the first time.

Before Known distance ASA classes I really did not begin competing in 3D until May after I took a break from shooting indoor spots all winter. This year I went to the first ASA of the year in Florida 3 weeks BEFORE going to the NFAA Indoor Nationals. One week after Indoor Nationals I shot the ASA shoot in Alabama. I used the same bow for all the shoots. If there had not been a Known distance 3D class I would have kept my hundreds of dollars in my pocket but instead I provided the ASA some funding!


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## sagecreek

And the ASA provided you some funding too for shooting so good.


----------



## Laars

Kstigall said:


> The popularity of 3D archery did not decrease due to the increase in the number of classes. I was perfectly happy shooting unknown distance 3D and if the Known classes had not been created I'd still be shooting in an unknown distance class. The Known classes have become hugely popular in the ASA. The known classes have significantly increased the number of folks trying out competition 3D for the first time.
> 
> Before Known distance ASA classes I really did not begin competing in 3D until May after I took a break from shooting indoor spots all winter. This year I went to the first ASA of the year in Florida 3 weeks BEFORE going to the NFAA Indoor Nationals. One week after Indoor Nationals I shot the ASA shoot in Alabama. I used the same bow for all the shoots. If there had not been a Known distance 3D class I would have kept my hundreds of dollars in my pocket but instead I provided the ASA some funding!


It sure did in my area of New England. Its dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Due directly to the number of classes, and the cost due to those classes.

Sorry to disagree, but coming from a person that is involved in two different shooting clubs, I can personally tell you, not only my two clubs, but all the clubs within a 50 mile radius of where I live have dropped 3-D shoots because of the number of classes that are required, and every class no matter how small must have 3 trophys. Plus your told how much you can charge. It has become not cost effective to hold a 3-D shoot anymore. At any given time, in the 90s, you could pick 3 shoots within 45 minutes drive of where I live. Now you must drive up to 100 miles each week to even find one. Thats not better, thats worse.

I've always used the same hunting bow for 3-Ds and I competed at a high level in the 90s. Longbow scores were in the 270s, compounds were 290s @ possible 300 total at that time.

There are plenty of classes to choose, you don't need to add more. If you really want a class that tells you the yardage, get rid of some of the others. That way you have a beginners class to get people in, but your not bogging down the system with a class that has no people in it.


----------



## nochance

OK so back on topic, I do not want to shoot known yardage but I will sign the petition because I think its good to have. See you Friday!


----------



## jlsmith1000

I have been shooting IBO this year, getting into 3D really for the first time. We don't have much in the way of ASA shoots around here that I know about. The part that kills me is the range guessing. I've lost a couple of arrows, blah blah, so what. I do, however, think the whole argument of we won't do fixed distance because you have to guess range when you hunt is a bit dated. I don't know about the rest of you, but for ME, I'd rather range that deer with my Nikon and make a clean kill than have to guess and wound it with a low or high shot. I'd definitely shoot the fixed distances because I go out there to have a good time and enjoy the company of friends, not put my name in lights. I can practice all I want at home or the club at various distances and range my targets while hunting, so I don't need to practice ranging *that* much IMHO.


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## nhns4

Weak sauce.


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## SWAG

If you want to shoot known yardage then why not just shoot field archery. Known yardage is nothing but a spot shoot anyway. Unknown yardage guys are complete archers not just shooters.


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## nhns4

SWAG said:


> If you want to shoot known yardage then why not just shoot field archery. Known yardage is nothing but a spot shoot anyway. Unknown yardage guys are complete archers not just shooters.


Zing


----------



## Laars

SWAG said:


> If you want to shoot known yardage then why not just shoot field archery. Known yardage is nothing but a spot shoot anyway. Unknown yardage guys are complete archers not just shooters.


:clap2: exactly. Shooting known yardages is field archery. 3D archery was started as a way for hunters to work on learning how to guess yardage in the field like you have to do when hunting.

Like I said earlier, if you want the beginner class to be known yardage, I can understand that. Just get rid of some of these other classes. Also if someone wins three times in that class, you make them move up. If it's a beginner class, keep it that way.


----------



## lk20103

I would love to be able to judge distance but after a major stroke and 2 brain surgeries I am lucky to be able to stand steady long enough to get off a shot. I just cant judge distance consistently no how much I practice. that part of my brain just doesn't work any more. if I don't know the distance I cant afford to shoot. missing gets to expensive


----------



## GreggWNY

Laars said:


> :clap2: exactly. Shooting known yardages is field archery. 3D archery was started as a way for hunters to work on learning how to guess yardage in the field like you have to do when hunting.


 Actually, when I am hunting deer, I am not usually standing at a stake with two minutes to decide the yardage. I also generally do not use a 28" front stabilizer, 15" side stabilizer, Sureloc sight with 4X lens, blue LP light and a blade rest. Open class 3D does not in anyway even remotely resemble hunting. It's purely target archery. I have met many 3D shooters who have never hunted in their lives and don't plan on it either.


----------



## BowHuntnKY

Laars said:


> It sure did in my area of New England. Its dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Due directly to the number of classes, and the cost due to those classes.
> 
> Sorry to disagree, but coming from a person that is involved in two different shooting clubs, I can personally tell you, not only my two clubs, but all the clubs within a 50 mile radius of where I live have dropped 3-D shoots because of the number of classes that are required, and every class no matter how small must have 3 trophys. Plus your told how much you can charge. It has become not cost effective to hold a 3-D shoot anymore. At any given time, in the 90s, you could pick 3 shoots within 45 minutes drive of where I live. Now you must drive up to 100 miles each week to even find one. Thats not better, thats worse.
> 
> I've always used the same hunting bow for 3-Ds and I competed at a high level in the 90s. Longbow scores were in the 270s, compounds were 290s @ possible 300 total at that time.
> 
> There are plenty of classes to choose, you don't need to add more. If you really want a class that tells you the yardage, get rid of some of the others. That way you have a beginners class to get people in, but your not bogging down the system with a class that has no people in it.


Ive never been to a local 3d shoot that gives out trophys, at every single shoot.....your clubs dont have to have a bunch of classes... 90% around here have open/bowhunter/traditional and youth....to say the decline in 3d is because of to many classes is silly. LoL


----------



## BowHuntnKY

Laars said:


> :clap2: exactly. Shooting known yardages is field archery. 3D archery was started as a way for hunters to work on learning how to guess yardage in the field like you have to do when hunting.
> 
> Like I said earlier, if you want the beginner class to be known yardage, I can understand that. Just get rid of some of these other classes. Also if someone wins three times in that class, you make them move up. If it's a beginner class, keep it that way.


And whats the fist thing a 99% of hunter today do l when they get in stand.....................bust out a rangefinder and range trees and shooting lanes.


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## SWAG

BowHuntnKY said:


> And whats the fist thing a 99% of hunter today do l when they get in stand.....................bust out a rangefinder and range trees and shooting lanes.


What do you do if you forget your rangefinder?


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## nhns4

SWAG said:


> What do you do if you forget your rangefinder?


Hope you guess correctly.


----------



## Kstigall

Laars said:


> It sure did in my area of New England. Its dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Due directly to the number of classes, and the cost due to those classes.
> 
> Sorry to disagree, but coming from a person that is involved in two different shooting clubs, I can personally tell you, not only my two clubs, but all the clubs within a 50 mile radius of where I live have dropped 3-D shoots because of the number of classes that are required, and every class no matter how small must have 3 trophys. Plus your told how much you can charge. It has become not cost effective to hold a 3-D shoot anymore. At any given time, in the 90s, you could pick 3 shoots within 45 minutes drive of where I live. Now you must drive up to 100 miles each week to even find one. Thats not better, thats worse.
> 
> I've always used the same hunting bow for 3-Ds and I competed at a high level in the 90s. Longbow scores were in the 270s, compounds were 290s @ possible 300 total at that time.
> 
> There are plenty of classes to choose, you don't need to add more. If you really want a class that tells you the yardage, get rid of some of the others. That way you have a beginners class to get people in, but your not bogging down the system with a class that has no people in it.


For the most part 3D participation dropped dramatically in all regions. Virginia was the same way in the '90's with clubs everywhere and hundreds of archers shooting every local tournament. I don't understand how the number of classes drove people away. The drop off was because baby boomers with plenty of money moved on to other entertainment. A lot of folks realized that they were never going to be 3D super stars like Randy Ulmer. 3D was still fresh and new in the '90's and every stud in the world thought they were going to be getting a free ride. With the exception of sanctioned tournaments clubs don't have to give awards for any thing!!

I shot my very first indoor 5-spot 300 in 1990 a the state championship in BHFS...................I didn't shoot another paper target for 15 years! It was because of my family and career and no other reason. I know many, many guys that simply got bored with shooting 3D or busy with life and pretty much went dormant as far as archery competition goes for a very long time. Many of those guys have taken it back up in the last 3-4 years. 

Slow pitch softball was absolutely huge in the late '70's through the mid to late 90's. Now it has to be less than half as popular.



nhns4 said:


> Weak sauce.





SWAG said:


> If you want to shoot known yardage then why not just shoot field archery. Known yardage is nothing but a spot shoot anyway. Unknown yardage guys are complete archers not just shooters.


I shot fixed pin *hunter* classes for many years. I won money in national 3D tournaments and finished in the top 10 many times at NFAA Indoor Nationals in BHFS. Last I checked no one was telling anyone they HAD to shoot known yardage.



Laars said:


> :clap2: exactly. Shooting known yardages is field archery. 3D archery was started as a way for hunters to work on learning how to guess yardage in the field like you have to do when hunting.
> 
> Like I said earlier, if you want the beginner class to be known yardage, I can understand that. Just get rid of some of these other classes. Also if someone wins three times in that class, you make them move up. If it's a beginner class, keep it that way.


Technically, 3D wasn't really unknown distance 3D when NFAA Field Archery clubs started shooting 2D foam targets pinned to their field bales. It was known yardage when it started and unknown distance 3D grew from that. 3D archery was started by field archers! Yes, most of them (us) were bow hunters as well. I know in central Va. all the first 3D course were set up by what was basically field archery clubs. 

Why get rid of what is obviously a hugely popular class? Because some old buzzards don't have the shooting skills OR competition skills to be competitive is not a reason. Let's not forget that a large increase in folks shooting bows and joining archery clubs is good even though NOT everyone likes it.



lk20103 said:


> I would love to be able to judge distance but after a major stroke and 2 brain surgeries I am lucky to be able to stand steady long enough to get off a shot. I just cant judge distance consistently no how much I practice. that part of my brain just doesn't work any more. if I don't know the distance I cant afford to shoot. missing gets to expensive


EXACTLY!



GreggWNY said:


> Actually, when I am hunting deer, I am not usually standing at a stake with two minutes to decide the yardage. I also generally do not use a 28" front stabilizer, 15" side stabilizer, Sureloc sight with 4X lens, blue LP light and a blade rest. Open class 3D does not in anyway even remotely resemble hunting.* It's purely target archery.* I have met many 3D shooters who have never hunted in their lives and don't plan on it either.


EXACTLY!

All these closed minded people remind of when the NFAA snubbed 3D........field archery is now a sliver of what it was and the NFAA is only a sliver of what it was and could have been. I wonder if these "anti-known distance" 3D guys are like the NFAA people that would rather be a big man of almost nothing than be a smaller piece of something that matters. 

I wonder how many of these "anti-known distance" 3D guys can't really shoot worth a hoot. Take away their excuse (my yardage was off) and they will stop shooting public altogether.

NO ONE is suggesting that unknown distance 3D should in any way be restricted!


----------



## carlosii

I shoot unknown because there's no known class for geezers. Don't really care about that...because I get to shoot with a lot of nice guys and maybe one or two old grouches. 

I'm sure there are some folks that once were top dogs who have lost a step or two and who think a known distance class would help them get back to their former glory.

So let 'em...whatever floats yer boat, I say.


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## SWAG

Maybe they should just start giving out trophies to every participant in all classes just as they do in FBH so everyone can feel like they have accomplished something.


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## BowHuntnKY

Maybe some tissues for all those whiners...


----------



## Kstigall

SWAG said:


> Maybe they should just start giving out trophies to every participant in all classes just as they do in FBH so everyone can feel like they have accomplished something.



Do you not realize that the known classes are well attended meaning that it's less likely someone would luck into a podium finish. 
In Kentucky - K45 = 139, K50 = 80, Open C = 250, Senior Mens Known = 73, *Womens Known 40 = 77*
Half and half Open B had 130.

Just so you know a lot of us that shot out of K45 did fairly well (won at least some money in other classes) before K45 existed. A lot of the amateur class anti-known whiners would finish FURTHER back in the pack if Known classes did not exist.

Rest assured a lot of guys in K45 and/or K50 would at least occasionally be picking up checks in Open B, Open A and maybe Semi-Pro if they chose to spend time practicing judging or even had the time to spend practicing judging. Do people like you prefer that hundreds of people not go to tournaments at all rather than shoot a Known class? Yea, that would be good for archery.......... :doh:


----------



## allxs

Kstigall said:


> Do you not realize that the known classes are well attended meaning that it's less likely someone would luck into a podium finish.
> In Kentucky - K45 = 139, K50 = 80, Open C = 250, Senior Mens Known = 73, *Womens Known 40 = 77*
> Half and half Open B had 130.
> 
> Just so you know a lot of us that shot out of K45 did fairly well (won at least some money in other classes) before K45 existed. A lot of the amateur class anti-known whiners would finish FURTHER back in the pack if Known classes did not exist.
> 
> Rest assured a lot of guys in K45 and/or K50 would at least occasionally be picking up checks in Open B, Open A and maybe Semi-Pro if they chose to spend time practicing judging or even had the time to spend practicing judging. Do people like you prefer that hundreds of people not go to tournaments at all rather than shoot a Known class? Yea, that would be good for archery.......... :doh:


right on Kent, you cant win this argument.

three things the IBO will never have,
Known Distance, 
Big Payouts, 
Growth like the ASA has seen in the last few years.


----------



## SupraFreak

reylamb said:


> For me it is simple.....I just don't have time to practice judging yardage.......so I have much more fun shooting the known class.





treeman65 said:


> x2.





#1phinsfan said:


> We travel to all the ibo shoots and there's around 9 of us. We all signed the petition and guess what? None of us will shoot it but, we all agreed as part of an "organization" everyone should get a chance to compete. There's enough buzz around this topic that it's obvious that it will attract shooters. Is it everyone's cup of tea? No so it's this easy... Just sign up for the unknown classes. Believe it or not its that simple if you want to shoot known do it if not don't. But to sit and type that known class is easy or unknown old school is rediculous. I Think it's safe to say that in this sport it ultimately comes down to making the shot. As an organization it needs to be open to ALL shooters and if it adds 50-100 shooters that's a lot of revenue and I'm willing to bet you known guys will have a class next year.





nhns4 said:


> Zing





GreggWNY said:


> Actually, when I am hunting deer, I am not usually standing at a stake with two minutes to decide the yardage. I also generally do not use a 28" front stabilizer, 15" side stabilizer, Sureloc sight with 4X lens, blue LP light and a blade rest. Open class 3D does not in anyway even remotely resemble hunting. It's purely target archery. I have met many 3D shooters who have never hunted in their lives and don't plan on it either.





BowHuntnKY said:


> And whats the fist thing a 99% of hunter today do l when they get in stand.....................bust out a rangefinder and range trees and shooting lanes.


And THIS is exactly why "I" think known yardage levels the field. The guys with the deep pocket books have the digital range finder in their pocket. How does NOT knowing the yardage make it MORE competitive? It just means those with a handicap, those without experience GUESSING yardage or those without their range finder aren't going to know the yardage and shoot less well. The stodgy old schoolers think it makes them a better archer. Im the first to agree it makes you more experienced at guessing yardage. It doesn't make you a better archer.


----------



## nhns4

SupraFreak said:


> And THIS is exactly why "I" think known yardage levels the field. The guys with the deep pocket books have the digital range finder in their pocket. How does NOT knowing the yardage make it MORE competitive? It just means those with a handicap, those without experience GUESSING yardage or those without their range finder aren't going to know the yardage and shoot less well. The stodgy old schoolers think it makes them a better archer. Im the first to agree it makes you more experienced at guessing yardage. It doesn't make you a better archer.


Yawn


----------



## Kstigall

SWAG said:


> What do you do if you forget your rangefinder?


Go home.......... :doh: or improvise.

What do you if you forget your bow? What do you do if you forget your arrows? What do you do if you forget your release? What do you do if you forget your sight? What do you do if you forget your sight light? What do you do if you forget your pull rope? What do you do if you forget to put your pants on? What do you do if you forget your flashlight? What do you do if you forget your knife? What do you do if you forget toilet paper?:confused2:


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## sagecreek

I forgot what we were talking about. lain:


----------



## Kstigall

sagecreek said:


> I forgot what we were talking about. lain:


What to do when you forget.


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## 3dbowmaster

Kstigall said:


> Go home.......... :doh: or improvise.
> 
> What do you if you forget your bow? What do you do if you forget your arrows? What do you do if you forget your release? What do you do if you forget your sight? What do you do if you forget your sight light? What do you do if you forget your pull rope? What do you do if you forget to put your pants on? What do you do if you forget your flashlight? What do you do if you forget your knife? What do you do if you forget toilet paper?:confused2:


Never ever ever forget the toilet paper!!!!!&#55357;&#56489;


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## recurveguy89

I believe a known yardage class would not hurt in anyway. If anything it would be a fun but competitive way to learn your yardages by shooting them in a competitive atmosphere. Would defiantly help bring newcomers to the competition side and let them have fun and in time have the confidence to shoot unknown. I believe it's a win win anyway you wanna look at it.


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## SWAG

SupraFreak said:


> And THIS is exactly why "I" think known yardage levels the field. The guys with the deep pocket books have the digital range finder in their pocket. How does NOT knowing the yardage make it MORE competitive? It just means those with a handicap, those without experience GUESSING yardage or those without their range finder aren't going to know the yardage and shoot less well. The stodgy old schoolers think it makes them a better archer. Im the first to agree it makes you more experienced at guessing yardage. It doesn't make you a better archer.


Shooting unknown yardage does make you a better archer. Levi has proved he can compete with the best of the best in the world shooting spots (known yardage). The best of the best spot shooters in the world won't even compete in Levi's game because he would make them look beginners. I know there is less money in 3D as well but several of them have stated they couldn't compete because they can't judge yardage.


----------



## carlosii

Kstigall said:


> Go home.......... :doh: or improvise.
> 
> What do you if you forget your bow? What do you do if you forget your arrows? What do you do if you forget your release? What do you do if you forget your sight? What do you do if you forget your sight light? What do you do if you forget your pull rope? What do you do if you forget to put your pants on? What do you do if you forget your flashlight? What do you do if you forget your knife? What do you do if you forget toilet paper?:confused2:


I called my grandson and he met me halfway between London and home...Well, I DID remember the bow and arrows...Just forgot the rest of the stuff.

:icon_1_lol:


----------



## nochance

SupraFreak said:


> And THIS is exactly why "I" think known yardage levels the field. The guys with the deep pocket books have the digital range finder in their pocket. How does NOT knowing the yardage make it MORE competitive? It just means those with a handicap, those without experience GUESSING yardage or those without their range finder aren't going to know the yardage and shoot less well. The stodgy old schoolers think it makes them a better archer. Im the first to agree it makes you more experienced at guessing yardage. It doesn't make you a better archer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO1jfZvngko


----------



## nochance

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Milo357

schmel_me said:


> Always gotta be one of those guys.....


And he expects us to pay money related to his business why???


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## SWAG

I don't get the point of known distance 3D archery. I always enjoyed shooting 3D because of judging yardages and shooting different ranges with different terrain, making it more difficult to judge the distance. Shooting different ranges of known yardage just means more or less gas to get there. To me it throws all of the aspects that I like about 3D archery out the window. Be like having the Bassmasters Classic in a Bass Pro Shops fish tank.


----------



## Milo357

chadbrochill17 said:


> Sounds like the people that will "only" shoot known classes are just bad at ranging and should take up a different discipline of shooting..


It's people like you that make other say "screw it" to your competitions. Of course, you probably like them better that way.


----------



## Milo357

SWAG said:


> I don't get the point of known distance 3D archery. I always enjoyed shooting 3D because of judging yardages and shooting different ranges with different terrain, making it more difficult to judge the distance. Shooting different ranges of known yardage just means more or less gas to get there. To me it throws all of the aspects that I like about 3D archery out the window. Be like having the Bassmasters Classic in a Bass Pro Shops fish tank.


What your saying is you have no respect for others opinions, you have no respect for their concerns, and you have no respect for their situations. 

Damn. I'd hoped I wouldn't have to put up with this kind of crap when I started shooting archery again and discovered 3d. What a shame realize how terribly wrong I was.


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## Huntin Hard

SWAG said:


> I don't get the point of known distance 3D archery. I always enjoyed shooting 3D because of judging yardages and shooting different ranges with different terrain, making it more difficult to judge the distance. Shooting different ranges of known yardage just means more or less gas to get there. To me it throws all of the aspects that I like about 3D archery out the window. Be like having the Bassmasters Classic in a Bass Pro Shops fish tank.


You don't have to shoot it or like the class ? I'm pretty sure everyone is trying to grow the sport and known yardage is the way to do it!


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## Kstigall

All this whining about some archers shooting Known distance 3D rather than their game of unknown distance 3D reminds me of the NFAA denying that 3D would ever be popular. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old NFAA guys aren't *still* saying "3D will never last", "3d isn't real archery" and "people play 3D because they aren't good archers".

Why do these anti-known distance guys give a rats butt if a lot of people shoot a known distance class? I don't get it. Is it simply because known distance 3D is different from "their" game? I think I know why................


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## SWAG

Milo357 said:


> What your saying is you have no respect for others opinions, you have no respect for their concerns, and you have no respect for their situations.
> 
> Damn. I'd hoped I wouldn't have to put up with this kind of crap when I started shooting archery again and discovered 3d. What a shame realize how terribly wrong I was.


You are like the pot calling the kettle black. I wasn't disrespecting anyone's opinions but I am allowed to have my own. I don't have to agree with anything you or anyone else says. I just stated it wasn't for me. Just doesn't seem challenging to me. Be like shooting in my yard from my yardage markers.


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## field14

I just don't get it. Since the "known distance" shooters NEVER compete for the same awards as the unknown distance shooters, who the heck gives a rat? This is such a stupid argument!
The addition of the known distance classes in ASA has proven itself beyond any doubt and has opened up 3-D shooting to a lot of participants that weren't there before! It has given people the option of whether or not to go known or unknown, and also to allow them to "graduate" and progress into unknown if they so choose! It has expanded the horizons for the ASA and it also has proven itself out in the RAPID growth of the KNOWN distances participants while the unknown is sorta stagnant.
Still no aiming dots on the animals, so you STILL must know where the rings are and you still must "make your own aiming spot" somehow, so what's the beef? I dould understand it if the known and unknown were put into the same pile and were competing for the same exact awards and against each other on the leaderboard. That isn't the case...so...make your choice and just go out and shoot and enjoy yourself in whichever class you CHOOSE to shoot!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Laars

GreggWNY said:


> Actually, when I am hunting deer, I am not usually standing at a stake with two minutes to decide the yardage. I also generally do not use a 28" front stabilizer, 15" side stabilizer, Sureloc sight with 4X lens, blue LP light and a blade rest. Open class 3D does not in anyway even remotely resemble hunting. It's purely target archery. I have met many 3D shooters who have never hunted in their lives and don't plan on it either.


My point was, it did in the beginning. You shot your hunting setup, and we went at a good pace through the course. I just went to a shoot today, that was how it was in the 80s. One class for men's compound, one for woman, one class for traditional, one kids class. That's it...... Here were the rules....


RAIN OR SHINE

3D SHOOT

EARL REED ARCHERY RANGE

SATURDAY, JUNE 20, 2015

REGISTRATION: 7:00AM – 11:00PM

4 Classes: Open, Women’s, Traditional & Youth (age 13-16)

$10.00 non-members, $7.00 members, $5.00 youth, FREE 12 & under

Food & Beverages available.

No stabilizers over 12”, no rangefinders or range finding binoculars.

No one had chairs on the course or took 5 minutes to shoot. I shot 30 targets in 2 hours, and I got in a good walk. It was a great time. Most shots were great hunting shots.


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## BowHuntnKY

:violin:

Its not the 80's
I hunt with a 15" front bar ans 10" side bar...and....O my an adjustable sight.
Fact is people arent wanting to accept the change...we all love archery in one fashion or another.

Not allowing rangefinders is fine if your shooting for money. But if not, then who cares. Its all for fun


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## X10ring

Add the class I mean y not you will draw more shooters who feel like they don't have the time 2 judge on a high competitive level..
And if u don't like it then shoot unknown!!
Were suppose to b growing the sport right?


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## T&A

What would hurt to take a chance on a new class I think a lot of people would shoot in an open known class


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## field14

T&A said:


> What would hurt to take a chance on a new class I think a lot of people would shoot in an open known class


I agree. I may have posted something similar to what I'm about to say, but here goes again and/or anyway:

I don't understand what all the bickering, hollaring, resistance, and downright silly stuff is all about with regard to known yardage? Sure, 3-D started from the basis of UNKNOWN yardage, but that was well before rangefinders were accurate enough to be worth the trouble to use. 
3-D, including IBO is nothing anymore but a TARGET shoot but instead of using 2D paper, we use 3-D animals with the "kill zones" in the wrong place to practice for hunting. So, the "practice for hunting" has been lost for years.
But, more importantly and why I just don't understand the complaining, bickering, rudeness and this "ALL about guessing yardage" crapola that is vented all the time. 
I'll tell you why. Very simple. The KNOWN distance shooters NEVER compete directly against those that choose the UNKNOWN distance. So, "unknown shooters" don't compete for the same money nor the same awards as the "known distance shooters." So what are you so worried about? You are completely separate, so the "known" shooters aren't "stealing" anything from you!
Are you worried about the IBO actually growing? You claim you want it to grow.
Are you worried that your score won't look so hot when put on the tally sheets? Why? You won't be ranking right in the standings sheet mingled right in with the KNOWN distance shooters. So what is your beef there? The knowns will be separate from the Unknown distance shooters on the standings sheet.

Doesn't make sense to argue about this or to try to stop it just 'cuz you think that 3-D has always been ALL about guessing yardage and you don't wanna see it ever changed. Well, folks, catch up with the times, because KNOWN distance 3-D for the IBO just may well be right around the corner.
In ASA, the KNOWN distance classes are the most rapidly growing classes they have. Attendance has accelerated rapidly, more are coming to join in the fun all the time. Some will stay with "known distance", but a host of others will eventually work their way into UNKNOWN distance classes once they get familiar with the game and learn. ASA took a ton of heat from the die-hards too and was told by said die-hards that the Known distance would "Kill" 3-D archery....well, obviously, for the ASA the die-hards are eating crow and have embraced the unknown classes. Yes, there is a "hassle" going on over a proposed "PRO" class in the K50...but that was going to brew up sooner or later anyways. Same game, same gripes, just different people.

So, the only other fear you all must have is course crowding and too many people now cuz IBO is so slow to get your rounds shot. Well...it is ENFORCE the TIME LIMITS.
The KNOWN distance shooters shouldn't (I cannot say "won't" cuz some will abuse it!) take any time at all to shoot their ONE arrow at each target. For them it is range the target, which can be done quickly...doesn't take TWO minutes to mentally do all that "guesstimating"...set the sight, and shoot the shot. Get off the stake for the next guy.
Word has it that at the ASA London shoot, the KNOWN distance shooters were off their 20 target courses in WELL UNDER 3 hours! 
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Kstigall

Nothing in this world is froze in place for 30 years! I am NOT a youngster. I have worked in the technology field since the early '80's. In the '80's it seemed the vast majority of folks over the age of 21 fought technology upgrades/improvements, oops, I mean "change" vehemently. 

Well hello archery world........ and its the same thing! In the '70's the NFAA archery people fought the use of compounds. Some IBO old timers fought the use of lens and and adjustable sights (target set ups) but advanced hunting rigs were OK. Now 3D old timers in general fight the popularity of Known distance 3D. What all of these people including the the folks that fought technology have in common is "I fear change", "I identify with the current 'way'", and some "I am fairly good at this 'game' and not as good at that game". 

When I was much younger I heard about how cars from the 1930's through the 1950's were "better". What a load of BS! Better than horse and wagon.......maybe.

I guess coming straight out of high school and into the technology field I learned that "change" is constant, it's evolution. We were literally replacing networks every 2.5 years. PC's were getting upgraded every two years or less. Operating systems were getting "fixes" probably twice or 3 times a year. There would be significant software revisions every few months. The "greatest" thing since sliced bread would be passe in less than 18 months.

Archery folks are just every day people...........fighting change every step of the way! But in all fairness, people are a lot more comfortable with "change" than they used to be. 

To the folks that are against "known" distance 3D. Why is it exactly that you are against Known 3D? To the folks that do not want to see the IBO change in any way I ask, why? Clearly Known 3D is popular and the IBO is struggling to maintain it's place and growth is out of the question. Is there a little part of you that is "scared"? 

In the ASA the Senior classes seem to be the most ardent foes or were the biggest foes of Known distance 3D. Yet, Senior Known came out of the gate this year being well supported! At the Florida ASA, the first with the Senior Known class, two of the guys in my group had _NEVER_ shot an ASA tournament (state or national). Think about this, 2 guys that likely have more disposable income than your average 3D'er decided after the first day that they would shoot more than one more ASA tournament this year. Two out of 5 guys in a group were brand new members with "new" money to bring into the ASA (and archery in general)...... So why is it a bad idea for the IBO to create Known distance 3D classes? I am NOT asking "why is it bad for you", I am asking why is it bad for the IBO as an organization?

Adapt or die............


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## ChuckE

Kstigall and field14 .... Well said!


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## Laars

Guys,
What I'm against is adding more classes. If you want to get rid of some other classes that no one shoots, and add a BEGINNERS known yardage class, I'd be fine with that. BUT.......

Use it as a stepping stone class. 3 wins and your out. Now you have a class to bring new shooters to the game, but your not gonna get the lazy archer who stays in the beginners class, wins every week, and never moves up to allow others to do the same, just to pad their ego. Thats my issue. 

Think about this. How many of you guys can shoot a perfect score on the 3D course if you are given the yardage. Do you really want those people to shoot in a known yardage class. How does that _GROW_ the sport. It turns people away. 


Make it like that, and I'd sign it. Otherwise, no way. Not to add another class without a plan to keep out shooter that don't belong there.


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## Kighty7

I will have the petition for people to sign at the 3rd leg this weekend. I am planning on having the petition at the Dead Center Archery Booth Early on Friday. Hope to pick up more signatures.


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## BowHuntnKY

Laars said:


> Guys,
> What I'm against is adding more classes. If you want to get rid of some other classes that no one shoots, and add a BEGINNERS known yardage class, I'd be fine with that. BUT.......
> 
> Use it as a stepping stone class. 3 wins and your out. Now you have a class to bring new shooters to the game, but your not gonna get the lazy archer who stays in the beginners class, wins every week, and never moves up to allow others to do the same, just to pad their ego. Thats my issue.
> 
> Think about this. How many of you guys can shoot a perfect score on the 3D course if you are given the yardage. Do you really want those people to shoot in a known yardage class. How does that _GROW_ the sport. It turns people away.
> 
> 
> Make it like that, and I'd sign it. Otherwise, no way. Not to add another class without a plan to keep out shooter that don't belong there.



Ive yet to.see anyone in ASA open C Shoot a perfect score....


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## shawn_in_MA

Kighty7 said:


> I will have the petition for people to sign at the 3rd leg this weekend. I am planning on having the petition at the Dead Center Archery Booth Early on Friday. Hope to pick up more signatures.


I am an IBO member but will not be attending the Triple Crown or the World's...anywhere on-line to sign this petition??


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## Mr. Motivated

Kighty7 said:


> I will a have a binder at the IBO Spring Nationals this weekend at the Dead Center Archery Booth. If you are interested, please sign the petition so i can present it to the IBO at the end of the year. I will not arrive in Pipestem till Friday evening but the binder will be there all day Saturday and most of Sunday. I am also planning on having the petition at each leg of the IBO. I would hope people would like to see the IBO grow and offer more classes for all types of shooters. Thanks to Dead Center Archery for allowing me to place the petition at their booth!
> 
> Brian R. Kightlinger


I am too is there anyway to be added to the petiton , mailing with our signature enclosed?


shawn_in_MA said:


> I am an IBO member but will not be attending the Triple Crown or the World's...anywhere on-line to sign this petition??


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## IBOHunt3D

DCPA said:


> I would love to shoot known yardage. There are not any ASA shoots close to me or I would definitely shoot ASA. Some of us just can't get the time off of work to travel and shoot ASA. Guess I'll just have to keep shooting IBO at unknown yardage.
> 
> I've heard from a few IBO officials, that they won't do a known yardage class because the IBO is based on hunting and judging yardage is part of hunting. Well if that's the case, where does the judging yardage come into play when your shooting 320fps out to 35yds in the hunter class of IBO. The fact is whether you know the yardage of not, You still have to make the shot! Not trying to bash any organization, but this is just my opinion.


I used to shoot IBO, and will shoot IBO once again as the kiddos get a bit older. But to weigh in on the point about judging yardage being a part of bowhunting, I offer this: How many of you go into the woods without a rangefinder? I personally don't hunt, but have a lot of friends that do. ALL of them carry and use their rangefinders, if only to range a tree, or a trail, if not the animal itself. Seems to me that with modern technology being what it is, ranging just isn't as big a part of hunting as it was 30 years ago. 

I for one have no doubt that a known class would be great for IBO. It would offer some sense of security to those on the fence about 3D shooting, and I bet it would become a very competitive class. Get all those field and spot guys out on the course and have a blast flinging arrows. Even though the distance is known, you still need to pick a spot on the target, and you still need to make the shot. I have blanked targets when I was pretty sure I knew the yardage, and I didn't miss because of the yardage.

And for those who feel known will be too easy and should only be a beginners class, a known 45 or 50 yd course could be very challenging. Just saying. IBO should adapt and evolve. Clearly, the data from ASA shows it is nothing but positive.


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## Kighty7

Anyone who was unable to sign the petition please feel free to email the IBO with and mention you would like to see a Known Yardage Class. I will be mailing the petition to the IBO Board of Directors before the World Shoot so it can be on the ballot to be discussed and voted on. Thanks to all who have taken the time to sign the petition and support growing archery.


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## carlosii

Maybe some are anti-known because they are concerned the unknown classes won't be able to draw enough shooters to make their class viable in the future.


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## Fire Archer

IBOHunt3D said:


> I used to shoot IBO, and will shoot IBO once again as the kiddos get a bit older. But to weigh in on the point about judging yardage being a part of bowhunting, I offer this: How many of you go into the woods without a rangefinder? I personally don't hunt, but have a lot of friends that do. ALL of them carry and use their rangefinders, if only to range a tree, or a trail, if not the animal itself. Seems to me that with modern technology being what it is, ranging just isn't as big a part of hunting as it was 30 years ago.
> 
> I for one have no doubt that a known class would be great for IBO. It would offer some sense of security to those on the fence about 3D shooting, and I bet it would become a very competitive class. Get all those field and spot guys out on the course and have a blast flinging arrows. Even though the distance is known, you still need to pick a spot on the target, and you still need to make the shot. I have blanked targets when I was pretty sure I knew the yardage, and I didn't miss because of the yardage.
> 
> And for those who feel known will be too easy and should only be a beginners class, a known 45 or 50 yd course could be very challenging. Just saying. IBO should adapt and evolve. Clearly, the data from ASA shows it is nothing but positive.


To me, judging yardage is just part of 3D archery. I practice in my yard but I get bored with it because I am just shooting at the same spot, same distances over and over. I think known distance 3D is same way. It would be like NASCAR not letting anyone adjust on their cars during a race. Its just taking an aspect of the game away that makes it the most interesting or challenging.


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## shawn_in_MA

Kighty7 said:


> Anyone who was unable to sign the petition please feel free to email the IBO with and mention you would like to see a Known Yardage Class. I will be mailing the petition to the IBO Board of Directors before the World Shoot so it can be on the ballot to be discussed and voted on. Thanks to all who have taken the time to sign the petition and support growing archery.


Did anyone hear if this made the ballot, or was voted on?? Any news at all?


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## ScottyE

Ttt


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## f4yg

shawn_in_MA said:


> Did anyone hear if this made the ballot, or was voted on?? Any news at all?


The rumor I heard was that the petition was mailed to the IBO and mysteriously disappeared from the desk. But, there are copies of it and will be brought up at the next meeting. I think in the next couple weeks if I'm not mistaken.


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## Kstigall

Eventually the IBO will improve their business model or they will _continue _ to shrivel up. Eventually someone else will take over the market and they will be a very marginalized fringe archery organization. They are close to being there now!!!


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