# Why do people shoot such small bucks?



## hoytshooter03 (Oct 28, 2003)

I understand what you are saying.. I shot a small Buck this year.The reason is it was the 2nd Buck I have ever had in bow range that I was able to get a shot on.. Sure he could have been bigger..But he also could have been poached (alot in my area). I will shoot nothing less that a 8 pointer from now on.. 

There are bigger bucks in my area but when the pressure comes you never see them for the rest of the year.. 

There is alot of pressure where I hunt.. 750 thousand gun hunters have a way of messing it up for everyone.


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## ExitPupil (Dec 30, 2003)

*MI has issues*

You would have to live in Michigan to understand how frustrating it can be. I have been doing QDM for the last four years and shoot nothing less than eight points. I have not shot a buck in three years even though I spend alot of time in the woods every year. Sooner or later the unwashed gun hunting masses will wise up and smell the backstraps, but until they do we will have to wait. Stick to your guns on the 8pts or larger issue and soonner or later other people will se the light. PS save your pennies for the out of state Ill Liscenses.


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

Big is all relative! A buck I would shoot in Louisiana and be proud of is a buck I would pass on in Ohio. Don't get me wrong I think we should pass on smaller bucks but every place is different.


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## dogknapper (Jun 16, 2004)

I also shot a small buck (8 point) this year. Presumably I am one of the folks referred to in this posting. I also love it when someone asks an inherently critical question and then tries to camouflage it by saying they are not meaning to be critical.

So much for that. My reasons for shooting a small buck were as follows:

a. We own a small farm in OK, just 80 acres. Herd management might be possible were it not for the presence of neighbors who have tresspassed since the turn of the 20th century. I have found spike bucks shot and left by these folks.

b. The farm is a full 8 hour drive and this was my third trip. That is not a small investment in gas. Plus I have to hunt on non-resident tags at $251 a pop for an archery only combo tag.

c. The buck was young. He was legal and had 8 points. He was not a trophy but I was not trophy hunting. I was deer hunting. Has a doe come in beside him, I would have taken a doe.

Bottom Line: I was the guy on stand and I took the deer. 

If all that answers your non-critical question, great. If it does not, great.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Come to Arkansas and say that after you've hunted here a while........


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## heavyarrow (Jun 21, 2003)

People shoot small bucks because sometimes that is all that is available in thier areas. Yea we wish everyone let small ones go so everyone was able to pick and choose, but that just isn't reality in a lot of places. I shot a little smaller buck than I normally intended to this season but it was because of the uniqueness of his rack. And I truly did think it was a little bit older deer.


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## Gypsy Rover (Jan 2, 2004)

*well...*

I hunt on a small 20 or so acre lot...the folks above me shoot any buck they see, and the folks below me do too....

So far they have shot a 7, a 10, a spike and a forker.

I have let a 6 go 3 times (little tiny 6) but will not next time, because if I don't shoot him they will if given the chance.


There is one monster I have lurking around, the neighbors have not seen him, and I am hunting him hard (why I let the 6 go)

I would say at least a 12, and I po'd him off with a mock scrape, and he has added 3 within 30 yards.


Watched him at 35 yards last weekend, not worth risking.....waiting for the 25 yard or less shot.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

"Why do people shoot such small bucks?"

Because they are *DEER* hunters???

Hunt and shoot what you want.

I get sick and tired of the better than thou hunters (especially when they live in Hog Heaven) telling others what they should and should not shoot.

You hunt for yourself, let others hunt for themsleves..


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## Hump (Aug 26, 2004)

*They Taste Great...*

& are less filling


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## HankinsHunter (Nov 3, 2004)

Where I live here in NY people come up from NYC and LI and shoot anything that moves (literally) during gun season. Sometimes you just have to be happy with what walks your way, cause if you don't shoot it someone else is going to. So much for management.


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## Jeff in SC (May 10, 2004)

As some of the others have said, "small is relative to the area that you are in." Here a 130 class buck is consider to be HUGH, while up in Il that is a "dime a dozen" buck! I have heard of one buck in this area that was shot w/in the last 6yrs that was better then 130. Not saying that they are not out there, but it is not like up there where you are.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: They Taste Great...*



Hump said:


> *& are less filling *



exactly.
are you trophy hunting or filling a freezer?
me i fill a freezer.
who cares.
some folks don't have the luxury of walking out back on 500 acres of prime buck growing property and so they shoot what they can.


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## perchjerker (Sep 25, 2004)

*In defense of FULLDRAW*

He never said he was talking about a 130 class deer.
I wonder the same thing when I see someone has killed a basket rack or a spike. I know trophy is relative to area of the country.
Gypsey river That big buck you are hunting,would he be around if your neighbors were killing EVERYTHING?Its simple if you want to kill bigger bucks ,you must let them walk when they are young. You can never control what someone else is doing.only thru education and example will things change.
The fact that you are hunting in the South is no excuse.There are huge bucks killed every year in the South due to the fact that someone let them walk .I would take a 120-130.I've never killed a buck with my bow.I've let lots of them walk.
Its just a matter of whether killing is the only thing hunting is to you. I plant year round food plots with high protein plants, I enjoy the whole hunting experience.Not just killing a small buck.


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## kbrown (Aug 10, 2002)

I took a small 4 point basket that was couple of years old yesterday morning, the deer was about the same last year. I didnt ever see the deer getting much better and he looked pretty tender yesterday morning about the time a 100 grain spitfire ripped though his lungs at 40 yards. I was right, his inner loins were very tasty for lunch yesterday. Gun season comes in this weekend and figureing I have sat my butt on the stand 3 days a week since the middle of september, I should be the one who gets to eat him and not some leadslinger on the next farm. I have never killed any wall hangers myself and yes they are around here. Someday I would like to have one but people still treat me fine and my sex life has not suffered as a result so there you go. THe state still says it is Ok to shoot little deer and until told otherwise I guess I will shoot one, oh by the way, I did shoot a doe last year, passed on a 7 point heavy basket that was probably this deers daddy and one that a leadslinger got opening day last year. I am all for TQM in fact I am a party leader at Fort Knox and they have a 12 inch minimium and going by the number they are putting out it is working great, (uh, I didnt mention it but I am a leadslinger on occasion too, Daaaang, little buck killer and a lead slinger, ooooohhhh, evil dude) Anyhow, the last I checked this is still America and if you are within the bounds of the law you get to do pretty much as you choose. Aint it Great  I got to go skin a deer now so you guys have fun


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

I have 4 tracts of private land I am allowed to hunt, including my own. I have been watching my trail cams and reports from my hunting buddy that hunts pretty much the same places I do. Here is the buck inventory that I am aware of: 1 spike, 2 3 pointers, 1 4 pointer, 2 6 pointers, 1 basket 8 pointer. There may be more, but I have kept my eyes open and thats all I know about. I have permission on one other tract where there are a couple of decent 8 pointers, but my permission is quirky. I have to hunt with my friend, cause he is the one that knows the landowner, plus the landowner "revokes" our permission if one of his family members comes in to muzzleload or gun hunt. At this point I dont really know if we are allowed back in or not, since the guys nephew said he wanted to gun hunt there.

All of these tracts are 40 acres or less.

Thus far, Ive waited to make sure I have no better options. Killed a couple of slick heads for meat. My decision has been not to take anything less than an 8 until Christmas. Im going to start running my cams again after gun season to see what the gun hunters have left standing.

If these were your options, what would you do?


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## TrophyHunter75 (Nov 11, 2002)

FullDraw, I invite you to PA to hunt the entire archery season so you can wait on a Illinois class buck. In fact, come out here 5 years in a row. Then come back a few weeks after archery season and hunt the two week rifle season with the 1.5 million other gun hunters. 

It won't take you long to figure out the answer to your question.


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## ozdog (Jan 3, 2004)

*Small bucks*

While it may be small to some it may be a huge accomplishment too another guy.

The trophy is all in the eye of beholder. Really, it does'nt bother me at all what someone else shoots where I hunt or otherwise.
You feel that buck is worth shooting then shoot it!

People have too realize that every hunter has the right too take any legal deer... big buck, small buck, doe, fawn.
Who gives a **** and why must they be criticized for filling their tag.
That guy smilling in the picture with that small buck has made just as big as an accomplishment as the guy with a big buck or doe.
Think about it...the purpose is to hunt for food, enjoy what's left of the great outdoors!

My buck will be lucky to gross 130" mabe 3.5 years some may think that's too small,too young. Sure he would have been bigger next year but he is a trophy to me and has met my personal criteria and thats all that matters.


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## 1bigtaco (Nov 3, 2003)

"eww eww, i live in Illinois....let me toot my horn a bit"

Why do people shoot such small bucks? Hmm...have you ever thought that MAYBE some of these small bucks you refer to are some of the biggest deer in the area....Did you know that a 110" deer in Alabama is considered HUGE? Or maybe these deer are even killed off public land in the same states that produce "small" deer. That was real big of you to directly attack some of your fellow AT member trophies.....and Yes a 100" deer is a trophy to me.


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## perchjerker (Sep 25, 2004)

*Attn Meat hunters*

come to Alabama,plenty of free public land,liberal limit.
Two deer per day,only one buck per day. We need help killing does.Please come here to fill your freezers,your mothers freezer,your sisters freezer,your grand mothers freezer........................................................................................


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Where at in Central Illinois. I know a few farmers who would probably like to charge you for feeding those deer you want people to pass on. 
I want you to pitch in for my car insurance rates.
Plus if I have to pass on any deer so you can feel like a big man for shooting a buck, I want you to buy me a side of beef in those years that my area only has bucks hanging out.

I got into deer hunting to help farmers, not prove I'm a man because I can raise deer. Raising deer is all you are doing if you are passing on everything.

The reason I shot this deer in central IL is because there are idiots out there passing on small deer and allowing inferior genes to get passed on. This particular inferior gene is causing deer to not have brow tines.
Why are you culling all the good genes and allowing inferior genes to get passed on? Did you flunk animal husbandry in 4H?

To sum it up, it's none of your business. We all have our own reasons for hunting. Unless you want people to start infringing on your reasons, shut up about how others do things.


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

*1bigtaco quote below*

"eww eww, i live in Illinois....let me toot my horn a bit"

Why do people shoot such small bucks? Hmm...have you ever thought that MAYBE some of these small bucks you refer to are some of the biggest deer in the area....Did you know that a 110" deer in Alabama is considered HUGE? Or maybe these deer are even killed off public land in the same states that produce "small" deer. That was real big of you to directly attack some of your fellow AT member trophies.....and Yes a 100" deer is a trophy to me.


I totally agree.1bigtaco i was thinking the same thing...........


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## Bottmhtr (Feb 19, 2004)

Sure you're not! If it is legal shoot it if you want. Don't worry about what others think. Most of us don't live in states that produce large numbers of large racked bucks. In Arkansas once gun season starts most gun hunters have the brown itsdown attitude. I am in a club and we own approx. 500 acres. I have passed on many small bucks. Last year I didn't. Shot a 5 pointer. Tasted great. This year I shot a doe the first weekend of bow season. Any buck is legal for my boys and I have told them to fire away. In some areas of thje country genetics plays a big part. But until you get a state wide management plan that curbs the size of bucks it is going to be hard to get numbers of large racked bucks. Arkansas has tried to do some qdm state wide and the gun hunters scream and complain but they also scream and complain because they aren't killing many big deer. In Arkansas it is a no win situation unless you have private land and neighbors that think the same way. Bottmhtr


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## Mead (Jun 19, 2002)

Full Draw,
Come to the upper Adirondack mountains of New York and ask that question. Some people hunt hard every day of the season and aren't even lucky enough to see a buck. I hunt Ohio and it's like heaven compared to the area I live in, in New York. I don't ever question anything that anyone chooses to shoot. Some people don't have much time and others just want to shoot a deer. You are very fortunate to live where you live. If you ever want to do a swap hunt let me know and I'll be glad to bring you into my tent camp to rifle hunt in the Adirondacks. It's 3 miles from the nearest road and in a week of hunting you will be lucky to see a handful of deer and when you connect it will be a dandy, but a dandy is still only around 120 inches. If you're up to it let me know and you can see what the other side is all about and it might give you a better understanding.


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## dbowers (Mar 24, 2004)

I gota agree with Willie, we are deer hunting, people are aloud (as long as it legal in your state)to shoot what the want or consider nice. Its all up to the hunter.

My buddy just got his first buck the other day. It was a small 3 pointer and I was damn happy for him and he was happy as a pig in sh*t.

We all have standards, some are just different then other thats all.

My friends first buck:


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## Deer Stabber (Dec 24, 2003)

*YES*

ok ok, Yes there are big deer in Illinois, and yes I have seen more trophy deer this year then any other. BUT every deer in Illinois isnt 130" or bigger. You cant just go out into the woods and through up a stand and expect to have 130" deer walk by, IT doesnt happen. I have hunted really hard this year. to date these are the bucks I have seen, 1 spike-1 messed up 5 point-1-forky-2 basket 8's-1 130" 8-1 160" 10-1 180" 12, I have seat prob 35 times on stand so far this year. the 2 big deer can in after low shooting light. So Illinois isnt all its cracked up to be.


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

dbowers
say congrats to your buddy...........


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

*Deer Stabber quote below*

I have hunted really hard this year. to date these are the bucks I have seen, 1 spike-1 messed up 5 point-1-forky-2 basket 8's-1 130" 8-1 160" 10-1 180" 12, I have seat prob 35 times on stand so far this year. the 2 big deer can in after low shooting light. So Illinois isnt all its cracked up to be.


you said ILL isnt cracked to be...............Look at what you have seen............here in pa 130 is huge,,,,,,,,,,,where I live........
The point is a 180 class deer is there,then I would past on small bucks


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## ozdog (Jan 3, 2004)

*Dbowers,*

I see your friend is serious about keeping his rig quiet.
congrats to your friend!


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## mike-uswest (Oct 6, 2002)

They taste the best of all the deer, and the does are where next years bucks are coming from. They were shooting does here in Oregon like mad, and now we have very few deer. It will happen.

Mike


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

Deer Stabber -- you help prove the point though!!

Illinois might not be all it is cracked up to be - but there are people who have hunted for 10 -15 years or more and NEVER have seen a 130 class let alone 160 class buck in the area that they hunt. 

That is the point that some guys are making.... You are absolutly right -- don't let em walk they can't get bigger....but it is tough when you can't get everyone on the same page.

One guy will shoot the first brown thing by and another will wait for a good bit. PA is good example -- state enforced QDM pissed several off -- now a lot say great things and some still ***** and moan and say that to many does are being killed.

I live in an area where the buck to doe could easily be 1:10. Yet you cannot convince some of the older hunters that does need to be thinned out.....they just don't get it and won't.....because they remeber when there weren't many deer period.

I have never seen a 140 class buck from my stand - I have taken basket 8's -- and now am trying to get the neighbors to go with QDM -- but I know a 110 or 120 won't be let walk -- guys never see em and go crazy over em cause that is big here.

wvhuntinnut


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## NY Joe (Sep 18, 2004)

*I agree with HankinsHunter...*

Unfrotunately I am one of those LI idiots that come upstate to hunt. BUT before I get categorized, I take hunting really seriously and enjoy bowhunting 100 times more than leadslinging.

The problem like Hankins stated is the idiot rifle hunters who have no business being in the woods with their brand new orange outfits, sighting in their guns the night before opening day, driving around spotlighting fields at night. That really pisses me off. I can be outside our house which is in the middle of a field and these A$$holes will just light up my property like a runway. How inconsiderate can people be.

Anyway the second issue is these rifle hunters will shoot any buck that moves, no matter what the size. We are limited in our area to doe permits. It has been two years since I have received one for the rifle season. During the bowseason you can take either sex; actually you get a doe and either a second anterless deer or buck tag.

That is why. I have only had one shot at a fork horn with the bow in 14 years of bowhunting (only get up to the house on weekends and limited scouting and property). Plus if I don't take it, some other idiot from one of the surrounding gun clubs will during gun season.

I would like to see antler restrictions like in PA. That would be my vote....


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## Ringy (Apr 18, 2003)

I shoot small bucks because I hunt to feed my family. I shoot does too. Fulldraw09, you must be a muskie fisherman too, because they don't have to ever catch any fish and they can still look down thier noses at us "regular fisherman". A deer hunter is someone that is successful once in a while, a trophey hunter only has to talk about all the deer they passed up.


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## ExitPupil (Dec 30, 2003)

*still*

I know some areas only have small buck (take most of Michigan) and I also know that people on properties adjacent to mine are shooting small bucks. However that does not make it madatory that I shoot small bucks! That argument simply does not hold H2O. Someone has to start somewhere. Shoot a doe and what ever buck you consider a trophy (even if its a four point)! But please let a small buck go if you ever want to shoot larger/bigger bucks.


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## Meat (Oct 3, 2003)

*Myk*

Myk

How in the world did you get that buck to just lie there while you rested your bow on him and took a pic? I wish I had my deer trained like that!

Meat


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## oakie (Sep 28, 2004)

i shot a spike about 2 weeks ago with my bow. my first bow kill. i also have a 120" 8ptr. mounted on the wall (which is good size for around here). i was prob. more tickled with my spike than i was when i shot the 8. in fact if not for being broke that spike would have went on the wall right beside the other. Its my trophy wall (not my antler wall) if i shoot a trophy that has antlers that great but like others have said "a trophy is relative to the one shooting it"


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## 1bigtaco (Nov 3, 2003)

*Re: YES*



Deer Stabber said:


> *ok ok, Yes there are big deer in Illinois, and yes I have seen more trophy deer this year then any other. BUT every deer in Illinois isnt 130" or bigger. You cant just go out into the woods and through up a stand and expect to have 130" deer walk by, IT doesnt happen. I have hunted really hard this year. to date these are the bucks I have seen, 1 spike-1 messed up 5 point-1-forky-2 basket 8's-1 130" 8-1 160" 10-1 180" 12, I have seat prob 35 times on stand so far this year. the 2 big deer can in after low shooting light. So Illinois isnt all its cracked up to be. *


HA! Thanks for the ammo buddy! Guess what? I have hunted public land here in Alabama 20+ times this year....Guess how many bucks i have seen??? ZEROOOOO. You expect me to feel sorry for your b/c you cant see 180" bucks every day? *oh theres a tear* Illinois isnt all it's cracked up to be? ROTFLMAO


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## Meat (Oct 3, 2003)

*2 reasons I shoot...*

...small bucks.

1. Tenderloin
2. Burger

and a 3rd just for fun

3. Jerky.

Meat (hunter)


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## MikeC (Nov 8, 2002)

I would like to see every state adopt management rules with a slot limit. 2.5 or older with less than 4 points and 8 pointers outside the ears (13-14" inside spread) and larger. Anything in between is off limits. 

I also like the earn a buck program in some states - gotta shoot a doe to get a buck tag. 

In my county in Texas there are no antler restrictions but we have a rule on my lease that it has to be 8 points outside the ears or better. I see shootable bucks every year. I have no doubt that if we didn't have the 8 point rule we would seldom see deer that big. 

Everyone on my lease talks about management and the need to shoot does but few actually do it. The earn a buck program would be great for my area. We also need to get rid of some older spikes, 3 pointers, and 4 pointers that are passing on their genes each season. They aren't going to get any larger and need to be taken out of the gene pool. 

Hunters would rant and rave about the restrictions but that would pass when they started seeing much larger deer in 2-3 yrs. Would also help with the brown is down mentality.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

willie said:


> *"Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are DEER hunters???
> 
> ...


Exactly......

I could write a book on reasons why. One being, you hunt where I hunt and see what you say then. Not being critical about it.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

This is what I'd like to know,
You got these trophy snobs who act like shooting anything but 130+ is so easy. They just sit in their tree stand over a food plot to pick and chose what they shoot at.
If it's so easy, why aren't they on the ground stalking?
I bet if they'd make the method harder, instead of raising deer and shooting antlers they'd go back to hunting all deer again.


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## Krivoman (Jun 25, 2004)

For all the hunters who hunt for the meat and need it... that is cool, no issues there. 

For all the hunters who say "in my state, you would be lucky to see a 4 point or a buck at all" That is your own dang fault. Everyone says it is the other hunter..... If he crosses the fence he is dead. Well maybe the other hunter is saying the same dang thing. He knows you are going to kill it as well! Why not try to talk to neighbors or groups of hunters and get on the same plan. You can pass a buck and still call the hunt a success! You dont have to kill a buck to beat your chest and say you did! Again, if you are strickly a meat eater, then i have no issues with that. But the excuse that someone else will shoot him does not fly. You never know what someone else might do or if that deer will be seen again. But the 1 thing you do know, you kill him, he is dead. Not going to get and inch bigger or a day older. 

If you are wanting to fill a freezer, whack a doe if possible. I say whack the first doe you have in front of you. This will ease the trigger finger.


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## Papick (Jul 13, 2004)

We are a group of 10 hunters who rented a piece of land and created what we call a private hunting club, one of our rules is that nobody is allowed to shoot anything smaller than a 6 pointer, 6 point basket racks are also "illegal" 
This is a way we do deeer management, after a few years we started to see nice size racks, the only time we're allowed to shoot a small buck is if some one has not been successful and the season is coming to an end then a smaller than 6 is allowed, aslo those who have doe tags has no reason shooting a small one. But that's our rules, and I do not criticise other who want to do differently. 
Where as our neighbours shoots anything they see, so we have no control over that and maybe that forfeits everything we put together.


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## MikeC (Nov 8, 2002)

Here's another I would support that wouldn't be real popular...no bucks over 120" during the rut. Leave 'em be while they're trying to pass on those big antler genes.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Krivoman said:


> *For all the hunters who say "in my state, you would be lucky to see a 4 point or a buck at all" That is your own dang fault. *


Sorry man but you're off base there. Until you have experienced hunting in other geo. locations (states), then come back and make that statement. Here where I am , vehicles are the biggest nemisis for big bucks.....I have let deer go for years and ya know what? Never ever saw em again! I know for a fact some were hit by cars and others were killed by other hunters. People as hunters have different motives for hunting and some can only get out a day or 2 at most and if they see a deer they shoot it, and I see nothing wrong with that as long as the deer is legal. 

The more things I see on the forums, the more it makes me realize that hunters need to be more open minded and listen and learn.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

To add to my last post, one of the things about I love about hunting is that I never stop learning and yearning, even after 36 years of hunting.


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## spobow (Jul 17, 2004)

In response to the original question, I think people are just so dang excited to see a deer that they don't really care how big it is until after the fact. Then of course it is too late. Just my thinking on the matter.


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

Well I will say that I passed on a 6pt this year but I will also say that I have hunted 31 times this year and have seen TWO deer! So I can't feel sorry for you and the few 130 class bucks you have seen.
Don't make such general statements!


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

Krivoman -- I have to agree with Jerry...... In the last two or three years I have let SEVERAL small racked(young) deer walk. The most memorable are 2 eight pointers and a six. They were ALL KILLED either later in bow season or during firearms season. I have tried to let em walk BUT the neighbors DON'T see the LIGHT YET!! I still am letting them walk, just hope they make it. We have 56 acres and I am working on making it as attractive as possible to keep some deer on it. Problem is that goes out the window during the rut.

The most disappointing kill was last year 1 - 1.5 year old 8 point that would have been a this year and then think about next year -- the other was a 1.5 year old 6 that just touched his ears and had longer G 2's than most of the other deer I saw last year..... Both of these deer were seen several times on the farm I hunt -- we were trying to let em go -- one was killed by a guy on the neighboring property and one was killed by a guy that hunts the farm we are on. He has the brown and down ideology. Just can't seem to convince him that he can kill a doe -- has to have a buck. We actually ride him about it a lot as well. Funny thing is -- I killed a buck on a different property the first week and another buddy killed a doe on a different property the 2nd week, you could see him change like it was a coompetition. I was glad that the first thing he saw was a doe cause I knew he wasn't letting anything walk... The doe was a puny thing (this years fawn) -- why he shot it is up in the air.... It comes down to him not wanting to "get behind" to far. Two of his friends had already taken one -- he had to take something!! This is the problem some of you guys don't have to deal with-- average deer killed in WV 3 years ago was 1.5 years -- DNR STUDY!! They liberalized the doe harvest and now the average age is 2.5 -- it is working and guys are coming around, but it takes time and lots of it.

By the way I think MYK has a point as well -- some deer need to be taken due to the poor genetic ptoential they have!!

wvhuntinnut


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## Grayghost (Jan 7, 2003)

*Imposing your ethics/standards on others*

Why do you want to impose your standards on others? Different states, even different areas of a state have different ideas about a trophy. Mine is different than others. Why question someone else’s motives when they are hunting legally? I remember my first buck. He was a basket rack 6 point that might have weighed 100 pounds. To me he was the monarch of the woods. A year-and-a-half old that was a true dink but also in my eyes, a true trophy. When you call someone else’s trophy a dink, you only diminish their joy, their pride in what they have done. THAT IS WRONG! If it is a legal buck, give them the congrats they are due. If a trophy to you is a 130 or greater, that is great also. Those of you that use the phrase "trophy snobs" or "horn hunters" are just as guilty as those who criticize about shooting dinks. KEEP YOU ARROGANCE AND IGNORANCE TO YOURSELVES! You are only showing your *** and we as hunters need to support each other. I got criticized on AT recently for shooting a 140 class 8 point. It was called too small and too young. Some of the INTERNET HUNTING EXPERTS need to get out and hunt instead of pecking around on their keyboards. 

Whew! Now I feel better.

Good luck to everyone.


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## 46&2 (Oct 3, 2003)

I have to agree with, Krivoman. It's not a big issue with me, I just agree with what he said.


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## pizzle (Jul 28, 2004)

FullDraw09 said:


> * Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size. *


fulldraw,

I really thought about warning you about the tone of your post.

I guess you get it now. If I say to you, "Not being critical, but why are you a complete dumb%$#?" How would you take that?

I don't know you at all, so I am just posing a hypothetical. 

Sorry to see you got ripped on your first few trips to AT.

ps: Do you have some pics of the ones you let walk and gave a couple years to grow?


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

Hey guys, I would like to add that I would not mind QDM being imposed in my state, statewide. Similiar to how things are being done in PA... I know several guys there and they all seem to be happy with the improvements with the herd they have seen. Now, don't take it wrong if you are from PA and don't like it!! You can't please everbody!! However, the only complaits I have heard have been online in forums -- face to face everyone I have seen or know from PA is happy with the changes, due in most part to the changes they can see in the bucks that are being taken and seen across the state.


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## Sgt Hamil (Oct 21, 2004)

*what happened to the reward aspect*

I have hunted here in Eastern NC for 4 seasons now. I have to say these are the weirdest deer I have ever seen. There is no rhyme or reason to how they operate. This year has been such a good mast producing year in the woods that I have nt really seen alot of deer in the feilds. To say the least , they are really spred out. Now , for those of you that think I dont you what I am doing , I always leave an open invitation for you to come hunt with me. I have hunted thickets, feilds, trails, scrape lines, and can account for seeing 3 bucks in 4 seasons. I have let 2 pass w/out a shot simply because I have been sucessful in GA killing 6 nice buck in three years. So it just does't prove anything to me to kill those small ones. At the same time it has to be considered not everyone sees alot of deer, so to think that they would pass on deer when they do see them is illlogical at best. Congratulate them and let them grow into more mature hunters. I know young hunters that start out killing anything they see, and gradually grow tired of it. I personnally hunt for meat . I let the little ones go and harvest does for freezer trophys.


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## Krivoman (Jun 25, 2004)

I understand letting a deer walk is a choice that is risky. I have let 100s of deer walk and have only seen a handful again. I guess we all make choices. But the part that i see is an issue with some hunters is that they say they shoot it because the neighbors shoots anything in site. This may be true, but if you follow this technique of hunting, you are doing the same thing. So I would challenge some of you to let some walk. Sure it will suck when you hear a shot next door, or you see him dead on the side of the road. The only one factor you can control is if he makes it a minute older. That is the minute you let him walk. If you have no issues with shooting small bucks, no big deal. But it is when those same people who say they have no problems with shooting the small deer say that they dont have big deer in their area that bother me. Big deer can grow where you let them. 

Someone mentioned above that they formed a club with about 10 guys. They are already seeing a differnce. Granted I think the Management plan could need a little tweeking and stiffing up the size requirments, but that is what works for them.


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## Deer Stabber (Dec 24, 2003)

I guess I should have explained myself a little better. 2 of the bucks I have seen were on public ground, the rest is on ground that we have managed for the last ten years. We shot ever small buck that walked by. after a few years we had a pretty good herd of deer with a good gene pool. this is on a 60 acre piece of ground that we hunt. we take at least 3 does a year off the ground and we still shoot the inferior bucks. If we hadnt managed the herd like we did do you think those big deer would still be there and be so abundant. you guys shoot want you want im not preaching about what deer you should and should not shoot, I dont think that is right to tell one man he shouldnt shot a deer. a trophy is in the eye off the man setting in the stand. oh and any of you guys that want to come to Illinois and hunt this public ground with me YOU ARE MORE THEN WELCOME. The thing I dont like is guys that get on here and whine about the inferior deer that they have to hunt. come on to Illinois they havent closed the borders and I can point you in the right direction and it wont cost you anything but an out of state tag and hotel room.


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## Buckgrunter (Oct 31, 2004)

*small bucks*

I don't care what other hunters shoot, but I'm from the hard-hunted state of Michigan where there supposedly aren't many big bucks. Since I decided to start passing on smaller bucks I've had at least one shot on a good buck each year. usually these shots occured after passing on a smaller buck just minutes before. 
I usually don't even see a shooter until November.
I think some hunters who think there aren't bigger bucks in there area might be surprized if they let a small buck walk.


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## cantwaittilOct1 (Aug 26, 2003)

It is up to the hunter to shoot whichever animal he/she wants. If the deer was hunted/harvested legally then that is all that matters. 

Nobody needs somebody telling them that their animal was too small to be taken. Too small to you, might be a trophy to another person.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

Any deer taken with a bow & arrow is a trophy. If it was taken legally then I see nothing wrong with taking any legal deer if given the chance. I like to eat deer meat & getting the freezer full is always a thing I look forward to each fall! I can't eat the antlers but I sure can eat the smoked deer sausage! If you want to focus on trophy deer that is fine but don't knock someone because they choose to take a deer you may not consider a trophy. Each person hunts for their own reason and as such I will respect anyone that has the chance to harvest any game animal with a bow.


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## sven bowman (Oct 8, 2004)

If your particular geographic area is lacking trophy quality animals, you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. If they are small, let them walk. Sure the neighbors may kill it or it may be hit by a vehicle but none of these outcomes are certain. By letting them walk, you at least contribute to the possibility that the particular animal may reach another year class.

Shoot a doe for the freezer. They taste just as good.

And to those of you that I've pissed off, bring it on, I can take it!


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## heavyarrow (Jun 21, 2003)

OK here's a little twist on things......
I'm all for people shooting what makes them happy BUT, the part that gets me is when a guy shoots a buck, just because it is a buck. He takes no pride in it meaning anything to him, other than saying to his buddies, "I got my buck". It's not for the need of meat, doe tags are more than plentiful, its not cause he made a great hunt out of it, he just wants "HIS buck". 
Another thing that bugs me is guys who will hunt bow season, just so they may have a shot at a nice buck, then pop the 1st buck by in rifle, just so they can say "got my buck". If you let a basket 6 go in archery, how can you take ANY pride in popping it 3 weeks later in rifle season? And again this is all in places where shooting a doe is not difficult.


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## bowhunterksb (Jun 29, 2004)

Why do people shoot small bucks? Like many have already stated on this thread there are several reasons: First deer, not much time to hunt,not very much land to hunt, no big racked bucks,the people your hunting with might make the hunt special, the circumstance revoling around the hunt- for instance maybe fisrt deer called in or first deer still hunting or pecuilar traits of a certain buck.

I normally kill smaller racked bucks some have been old and going down hill and some have been young. 

I hunt on the ground and if your hunting from a tree and hunting is to easy for you try still hunting for the ultimate aderiline rush.


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## 1bigtaco (Nov 3, 2003)

Krivoman said:


> *I understand letting a deer walk is a choice that is risky. I have let 100s of deer walk and have only seen a handful again. I guess we all make choices. But the part that i see is an issue with some hunters is that they say they shoot it because the neighbors shoots anything in site. This may be true, but if you follow this technique of hunting, you are doing the same thing. So I would challenge some of you to let some walk. Sure it will suck when you hear a shot next door, or you see him dead on the side of the road. The only one factor you can control is if he makes it a minute older. That is the minute you let him walk. If you have no issues with shooting small bucks, no big deal. But it is when those same people who say they have no problems with shooting the small deer say that they dont have big deer in their area that bother me. Big deer can grow where you let them.
> 
> Someone mentioned above that they formed a club with about 10 guys. They are already seeing a differnce. Granted I think the Management plan could need a little tweeking and stiffing up the size requirments, but that is what works for them. *


Listen buddy, no one said they shoot EVERY deer they see, now did they? Now i will tell you for one (and you can spout off about this however you want) but where I hunt my private land is just over 100 acres, now i dont have any deer that live strictly on my land, all my deer either bed on me or feed on me but none due just both, so the deer i see are the same deer that pass through my neighbors land also. I have 4 different clubs that touch my 100 acres (thats A LOT) You can expect to waltz over to a neighbors land and tell them or even ask politely to stop shooting small deer (beleive me, we've talked), It is just a waist of time in most cases b/c EVERYONE is shooting small bucks. Your right if everyone started practicing QDM we would have bigger bucks but that won't happen until the state steps in and only until then. I would be all for state antler restrictions, because even though all my deer i have killed have been trophies I too am obssesed with racks just like everyone else that hunts (just most can only dream about them). Ive taken plenty of deer in my life and i dont shoot small bucks anymore, i dont ever see any big bucks but if i do i will shoot them LOL. I will settle for a doe any day. Just dont judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. My only problem is the personal attack on someone else's trophy which is downright SNOBBISH!


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## FullDraw09 (Oct 14, 2004)

OK, inreference to my original post and the comments made, In no way did I mean to come off as some type of snobby trophy hunter from Illinois, I do consider myself VERY Lucky and blessed to have the area that I hunt in. I do understand that not all states have good deer populations. 

The point that I really wanted to make was that I would shoot a doe before a small buck they eat much better then some old tough buck, but I will shoot a buck to get them out of the gene pool. 

In order for me to keep hunting the land that I do, we need to kill deer to keep the farmer happy, it does not matter which sex to him, just kill them. We pass on bucks and shoot does every chance we can. I do not see 130 class everyday, matter of fact I have shot one buck of about 140 class. 

To ME bowhunting is about patience and enjoying the experience every chance that I get not shooting a deer just because it has antlers. IN MY OWN OPINION, I just think if you spend a lot of time in the stand and let the small ones walk, you will see an improvment somewhere down the line, if not you, maybe your children.


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## ridingclassicmc (Jul 9, 2004)

This argument has been debated on here a thousand times. People still are going to kill little deer. It is there choice and if that is what they want to do then fine. However I hate to hear people make excuses about why they don't wait for a bigger buck. Poachers, other people will shoot them when they cross a fence, and so on. One thing is for sure if you shoot it and you are a good shot then he will never get older. If you live in one of those states where you can kill multiple bucks in the same year you are out of luck. If you participate in the act of killing lots of small bucks in your state you are adding to the problem. If you all need to thin the herd you know how to do it. Kill a doe. 

There is no good answer to why. I tell people on our farm that want to hunt with me if you shoot it you better spend the money to mount it. If they don't they won't be coming back for a second year. It is paying off. I have had problems getting on big deer at close range this year and I have worked my tail off trying, that is hunting. Yes gun season is coming along with all of those weekend worriors but I am still waiting on the big one. It will happen just maybe not this year. If I need to shoot something I'll kill a few does. That needs to be done anyway every year.


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## marshdog (Sep 3, 2004)

Disclaimer: If you don't want to read about a rifle shot deer please stop reading. I don't want any purists to have a heart attack because of me.


You want to know what my best trophy is? The deer I'm most proud of?? A little 4 pointer I shot when I was 19. With a rifle. 

Thats right a 4 point Y buck. Now before you go and judge people based on the deer they shoot let me tell you why this was/is a trophy to me and we'll see if you would have considered it the same.


First, it was my first ever buck. Should be reason enough.

Second, I shot him with my Grandfather's Winchester Model 88 which he hunted with since he bought it brand new and then gave to me to hunt with until I can pass it along. You see, he couldn't hunt that year because he was diagnosed with cancer and the radiation ate him down. He gave me that rifle on Oct. 27, my birthday. He passed away on Nov. 12th. Just about two weeks later. I shot that little 4 point on the second day of the rifle season the same year which was on Dec. 2. Three weeks after he passed away and I shot it with his rifle. 

I urge you to think a little bit before you open your mouth about why guys shoot what they shoot.


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## mike-uswest (Oct 6, 2002)

In my area we had tons of deer, and they started shooting does in mass. Now I know guys that have gone a whole season without seeing any deer. 

Mike


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

I dont think that a persons first deer is what they are refferring too, they are mad at the seasoned vets who year after year shoot the little deer, its not right (IN MOST STATES) to do that, and it is frustrating to not have any control over your neighbors, but if u shoot it because you think that your neighbors will then your neighbors will just shoot a different little buck and 2 immature deer wont make it


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## 1bigtaco (Nov 3, 2003)

> In no way did I mean to come off as some type of snobby trophy hunter from Illinois,


Well i understand where you are coming from on letting small ones pass while waiting on bigger ones (ive seen the videos )

BUT if that was the effect you were going for you definetly should have let this statement out......



> Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois


Now maybe you did not mean it to come out like that but to be totally honest with you it was a *****ty statement. I know it would pi$$ me off if someone came on here criticizing the size of my deer but unfortunatly i have no pictures to post on her as of yet

Just understand not everyone is in the same situation, trophies are all subjective. Have a good one! Clay


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Ok...I get it...everyone else does it...so even though I do it too..I can blame it on them. "Everyone else shoots basket racks...so I dont have any choice"...doenst anyone else see this viscious circle. Virtualy every state has extra does tags. In many you can shoot all the does you could ever want. A doe tastes the same as a buck...so why not pass the smaller bucks and shoot a doe? If it is all about meat...then it wouldnt matter. 
Untill we can get more on board, there wil be no improvement in the quality of your deer herd. So long as everyone waits for everyone else to stop shooting small bucks...all you will see are small bucks. Just think...if say there are 10 hunters, with 10 buck tags...and ten all take small bucks...you take 10 from the herd. If 5 of those ten hunters takes a doe instead....you will have 5 more mature deer next year. It is said that over 80% of the buck harvest is .5, and 1.5 year old bucks. If hunters as a group were to reduce that number...just think what the P&Y book would look like the next year. You cant blame others for your own failure to take the initiative and bring change to this. You are the reason that your state only has small bucks...if you are truly a "meat hunter" it should not make any diffference to you to take a doe instead.


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## Spiker (Oct 25, 2004)

1 spike buck taken @ 20yrds.....meat in the freezer
basket 6 pt. taken on the last day of the season.....tag filled
taking a buck with a bow......priceless

Congratulations to anyone who has taken a deer this year.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

1 doe taken at 20 yds=the same meat in the freezer
1 dink buck passed up=bigger/better bucks next year


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## C-NOGLE (Jan 6, 2003)

Tough to argue that? I think the following line should read..seeing bigger buck every fall...priceless.


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## ExitPupil (Dec 30, 2003)

Ok...I get it...everyone else does it...so even though I do it too..I can blame it on them. "Everyone else shoots basket racks...so I dont have any choice"...doenst anyone else see this viscious circle. Virtualy every state has extra does tags. In many you can shoot all the does you could ever want. A doe tastes the same as a buck...so why not pass the smaller bucks and shoot a doe? If it is all about meat...then it wouldnt matter. 
Untill we can get more on board, there wil be no improvement in the quality of your deer herd. So long as everyone waits for everyone else to stop shooting small bucks...all you will see are small bucks. Just think...if say there are 10 hunters, with 10 buck tags...and ten all take small bucks...you take 10 from the herd. If 5 of those ten hunters takes a doe instead....you will have 5 more mature deer next year. It is said that over 80% of the buck harvest is .5, and 1.5 year old bucks. If hunters as a group were to reduce that number...just think what the P&Y book would look like the next year. You cant blame others for your own failure to take the initiative and bring change to this. You are the reason that your state only has small bucks...if you are truly a "meat hunter" it should not make any diffference to you to take a doe instead.




Well Said! I totally agree!


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## 1bigtaco (Nov 3, 2003)

Xs24-7 said:


> *Ok...I get it...everyone else does it...so even though I do it too..I can blame it on them. "Everyone else shoots basket racks...so I dont have any choice"...doenst anyone else see this viscious circle. Virtualy every state has extra does tags. In many you can shoot all the does you could ever want. A doe tastes the same as a buck...so why not pass the smaller bucks and shoot a doe? If it is all about meat...then it wouldnt matter.
> Untill we can get more on board, there wil be no improvement in the quality of your deer herd. So long as everyone waits for everyone else to stop shooting small bucks...all you will see are small bucks. Just think...if say there are 10 hunters, with 10 buck tags...and ten all take small bucks...you take 10 from the herd. If 5 of those ten hunters takes a doe instead....you will have 5 more mature deer next year. It is said that over 80% of the buck harvest is .5, and 1.5 year old bucks. If hunters as a group were to reduce that number...just think what the P&Y book would look like the next year. You cant blame others for your own failure to take the initiative and bring change to this. You are the reason that your state only has small bucks...if you are truly a "meat hunter" it should not make any diffference to you to take a doe instead. *


Hey man, thats sounds great to me! But come down here and pitch that to your average hunter and they will laugh in your face and spit on your boot.


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## Leg Man (Jan 31, 2003)

People can do whatever they want as far as shooting small bucks. It is each hunters choice. With that being said. . . . . 

You will never see me leaving a "Great buck - good job" reply when someone shows a picture of a 1 1/2 yr old buck. In my opinion these are the dumbest deer in the woods during the rut. I'll choose to let them go hoping they live to get bigger. I know that many neighbors will likely shoot them, but at least I feel like I did my part. I will not get locked into this "if I don't someone else will" viscious circle. I'll also shoot every doe I can legally take in order to "fill the freezer" and even out the buck to doe ratio.

My thoughts and beliefs only and they may pi** off a few people. For this I am not sorry, just as the "meat" hunters are not sorry either.

Leg Man


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## Krooz (Jan 17, 2004)

I'll chime in also.... In the gun club I'm in I've taken some great video and pics of 6pts, 8pts etc plus I've harvested a few nice bucks besides. The bow club I'm in, which is a 6pt or better club also, has been another story. It's been such a challenge since the August opener here in SC to even get a deer within range that I'll take a basket 6 if I get a chance. I won't feel embarrassed with it either. The heat, the humidity, the bugs etc has been something to deal with while bow hunting, let me tell ya. I've had one shot (at a doe) in going on 3 months now... I'm not gonna worry if it passes someone elses litmus test.... if it passes mine - well, that's what counts.
I like the 6pt or better clubs though. In the one you have to kill 2 does for every buck you take. This has resulted in some real nice development in recent years. But if you're on public land and elect to kill a legal buck, I don't care if it's a spike or an 8pt - it's legal, fair chase and your choice to make. Take a clean shot and be proud of your deer.

Krooz


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*You are spoiled in Illinois*

Southerns states are nothing like Illinois. 

Some guy may only see one buck a season. It happens.

They paid for there license and its there call.

Trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Buck with bow is not easy.


Understand less than 10% of hunters will harvest a buck with bow. Dont think archers are going to hurt the population.


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## Hoyt gal (Jun 17, 2004)

*Trophy or Meat Hunter!*

A doe makes since to me. I missed one yesterday! They are alot better eating. I live in southern Oklahoma and our ratio is about 20 does to 1 buck. If he is a big buck you won't see him until rut which began here last week.
It seems to me in early season bucks run together. If you want to shoot a big one you've got to give him time to show up. He sure ain't gonna walk in before the small ones. He will be the last deer you see. He's a trophy for a reason. 
WAIT ON A GOOD ONE IF Y0UR NOT HUNTING FOR MEAT.
Good Luck everybody.

Trophy is in the eyes of the beholder!!!!


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## LFM (Jan 10, 2004)

It is surely relative to the place you hunt... Yes there are Big Bucks in Michigan as many other places in the U.S. but for most of us that hunt we want to hunt deer and if you let a small buck pass the guy in the next field over will be more than happy to shoot it whether it be bow or gun season. I appreciate those that can let them go but hunting pressure in some places is so high it is tough to take a deer and for many it could be many years before they do get a deer. I know of a few that have given up on deer hunting because they have not seen a deer that they legally could take after 5 or more years the costs get to be to much when all you do is sit and wait. With the costs of gas, lodging, food, licenses, bow, rifle pistol and other stuff etc going up it is hard to make the rational that it is all worth it. As of the last 6 years I have only seen one buck a 5 point I took it but I have also taken a few does over those years but it is harder to take a mature one because they are now becoming nocturnal like the big bucks in the area I hunt at least.

I would love to be able to afford to hunt Texas, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Illinois or where there are Big Bucks once every few years but those hunts are now way out of my budget. So for me hunting in my home state is all I can do.

So far this fall I have only see three deer and have hunted 12 days they were 75 yards out and never came in. We have a nice 8 pt in the area but again he is the only eight pt we have seen in the area in 13 years of having 40 arces all the rest were smaller bucks but for me meat is meat and I like to eat it so a freezer with some is always good...

So you hunt what the regs let you and hope that it will all work out sometime where Big Bucks are the norm and not the rare sight like some places like where I currently hunt...

Regards,

Mike/LFM


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## Eric Mamo (Jun 10, 2004)

*small bucks*

I shot a large bodied buck earier, but he was only a 6 point. The reason I shot him was because I have been seeing him for several seasons. His rack wasn't getting any larger, year after year. So I figured that it was due to his genes, and took him out of the gene pool before the rut. Can this not be considered Quality Deer Managment? If an older buck, or even doe for that matter, can be accurately aged, and is undersized, shouldnt we be taking these ones out before we take the monster ones? (I'm not implying someone should pass a monster deer, I would never be able to).


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## nwmthunter (Aug 11, 2003)

I want at least a 4x4 with a big rack, I personally have no desire to take little bucks I got that out of my system already.But to each their own, hunt, have fun and make a good kill. Here's a picture of my buck this year,should I get him mounted? Everyone is different and we can't start telling other hunters what should be their goal.


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## docteur (Aug 14, 2003)

If you really want to eliminate the shooting of immature bucks, the only way you are going to do that is to pass a law. This idea of voluntarily passing on young bucks is just ridiculous and serves absolutely no useful purpose and has absolutely no effect on the size and age of bucks. In our area, particularly on state lands, it is guaranteed that if a buck is passed, the next guy will take it. Unless you have complete ownership and total control of your hunting area, you cannot control what is shot without a state law.

On the other hand, those that would like to see such a law are the first ones who will condemn making any other hunting practices illegal regardless of what it is, because they believe that such new restrictions on hunting activities do not support the currently legal hunting methods of other hunters. That is an argument I've heard over and over on here.... "as long as it's legal, I will support another hunter's right to do it".

Doc


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## C-NOGLE (Jan 6, 2003)

Please only read the following if you looking to kill bigger antlered bucks.......go hunt where they are...I drive 45 minutes or more each day to hunt big deer because thats where they live. If I hunted in my backyard a 2.5 year old 8 pt would be a great deer I look for new and better places all year long. I knock on a whola lotta doors and shed hunt all winter to expand my knowledge of possible hunting areas. Fact is there are good deer al over this country -even in your state...I don't care id it's N.Y.or Alabama. I'll bet your state and county has killed several booners in the last 2 years. Tell me if i'm wrong. Forgive me if I am blunt but this thread is sounding like a lifetime t.v. for women saturday marathon. I like to kill big buck's and I'm not afraid to say it, but I make many sacrifices to get them....I gave up on lame excuses the day I decided to raise my own standards. Keep doing your thing if your happy with the quality and quantity in your neck of the woods...if not do something to change it or hunt elswhere.


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## jmundy (Aug 16, 2004)

Let me see if I can follow some of the logic about this subject so far.

1. If you want meat shoot a doe. 

2. Pass up the chance to shoot a small buck so he has time to mature.

3. Encourage all of our buddies and neighbors to do likewise.

Now a few years down the road when we have a good amount of 8 point or better bucks available who gets to shoot them? 

I mean if your hunting for meat no need to kill a buck, a doe will do just fine. Why not let the 120 class deer walk and see if he'll make the 140 class? Or have we just set the stage for the "trophy" hunters who want bragging rights about their kills and denied a lot people the opportunity to kill a legal deer and enjoy their experience.

We as hunters have a lot more obstacles before us with regard to preserving out sport than worrying about who's concept of hunting is better. If we don't wise up we all will wind up losing. Then Mother Nature will have to start managing the deer herds. You know by starvation and disease. Pleasant ways to go, but I bet there will be some monster bucks starving to death since we won't out there thinning the herd and the little ones had the opportunity to walk.


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## DeerStalker (Aug 27, 2004)

I live in an area where ther are "good" bucks and know many people who shoot them. I personally shoot small bucks because I only hunt 15 acres of private land land and only see a few bucks a year. The public land I hunt is very pressured and most buck never grow to GOOD size. I pay over 100 Dollars on tags every year and as a 19 year old that is ALOT of money to let go to waste. I pass on small bucks up until the second week of gun season with the hopes of seeing a BIG buck. But after that its dead!
Just my 2 cents


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

C-NOGLE said:


> *Please only read the following if you looking to kill bigger antlered bucks.......go hunt where they are...I drive 45 minutes or more each day to hunt big deer because thats where they live. If I hunted in my backyard a 2.5 year old 8 pt would be a great deer I look for new and better places all year long. I knock on a whola lotta doors and shed hunt all winter to expand my knowledge of possible hunting areas. Fact is there are good deer al over this country -even in your state...I don't care id it's N.Y.or Alabama. I'll bet your state and county has killed several booners in the last 2 years. Tell me if i'm wrong. Forgive me if I am blunt but this thread is sounding like a lifetime t.v. for women saturday marathon. I like to kill big buck's and I'm not afraid to say it, but I make many sacrifices to get them....I gave up on lame excuses the day I decided to raise my own standards. Keep doing your thing if your happy with the quality and quantity in your neck of the woods...if not do something to change it or hunt elswhere. *


I drive 2 hours one way to hunt every weekend and yes I go to Ohio every year to hunt. But if you think that you can compare hunting in Ohio to South Louisiana you need to stop smoking that crack! I have hunted in 7 states and you cannot compare apples to oranges. With that said we do manage our deer and shoot eight point or better and I have killed two 130 class deer which are great deer. Our deer are hunted with RIFLES for TWO MONTHS with a 5 buck limit so if you think you can mange 100 acres or so you are mistaken. I passed on three bucks last year (I only saw four) all three were killed next door buy one hunter. 
The only way to accomplish what you are talking about is to limit the # of bucks killed or antler restrictions. We worked hard to get that passed last year but it ended up in a political mess.


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## hoytshooter03 (Oct 28, 2003)

C-NOGLE said:


> *Please only read the following if you looking to kill bigger antlered bucks.......go hunt where they are...I drive 45 minutes or more each day to hunt big deer because thats where they live. If I hunted in my backyard a 2.5 year old 8 pt would be a great deer I look for new and better places all year long. I knock on a whola lotta doors and shed hunt all winter to expand my knowledge of possible hunting areas. Fact is there are good deer al over this country -even in your state...I don't care id it's N.Y.or Alabama. I'll bet your state and county has killed several booners in the last 2 years. Tell me if i'm wrong. Forgive me if I am blunt but this thread is sounding like a lifetime t.v. for women saturday marathon. I like to kill big buck's and I'm not afraid to say it, but I make many sacrifices to get them....I gave up on lame excuses the day I decided to raise my own standards. Keep doing your thing if your happy with the quality and quantity in your neck of the woods...if not do something to change it or hunt elswhere. *


Here here! I drive 2 and half hours to hunt my spot.. Why? Becuase there are big deer in the area.. I shot my buck because like I said earlier I hadnt had a Buck within bow range for sometime.. Will I shoot a bigger Buck?Who knows but I have one now with a Bow and to me thats all that matters.. Now are my standards higher?Yes.. Will I hold out for a larger one? Yes.. Beggers cant be choosers when it comes to private property.. I was fortunate to find my spot and I cant complain even if the opening morning of gun season I hear rifle shots at 5 am. Thanks.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

OK...for those of you you say "It is easy for those in trophy states to say that..but where I am there are no large deer, so I take any buck I can"....there is a reason you dont have any larger bucks. YOU. You can't shoot every .5 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer and expect to miraculously have 3.5+ year old deer. It doesnt work like that. You dont need to shoot any buck. I bet money that your tag would work just as well on a doe...and taste the same....it is the old school attitude that "Any buck is a bigger accomplishment than a doe" that has gotten many states int he trouble they are in. Many states you can shoot several bucks a season. The Game managers with the state want the numbers down, so you can get a few tags. They couldnt care less what you shoot, so long as deer are getting killed. This has a large impact on the number of mature deer, and young bucks make up the vast majoirty of Deer Harvested. This is true in almost every state.
I continue to see the blame being put on "The gunhunters shooting everything" or "the neighbors shoot everything"....and those saying it seam to put that in a negative light...while at the same time shooting immature deer every year. Double standard? How can you talk down your nose about your neighbors shooting all the small bucks...while you do the same. If you arent part of the solution...you are part of the problem.
The myth that excists that if you pass it someone else will take it is wrong as well. Look at Bowhunting success rates. Look at rifle success rates. Even in the states with the highest harvest rates well over 50% of the heard survives the deer season. Obviously some deer are being passed up. If we can grow the numbers of archers passing up small deer. If we can increase the umber of people exposed to QDM, we will see more bigger deer everywhere. You wont have to look in envy to those of us who live in places that harbour large deer. You can look down your road. If you take this opportunity to pass small deer and set an example, perhaps one day you will be able to look back and say that you contributed to the success fo your state. Perhaps you will be able to take some pride in the fact that you were part of the solution, rather than continuing to foster the problem.

*WHY NOT SHOOT A DOE INSTEAD??*


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

Xs24-7 said:


> *OK...for those of you you say "It is easy for those in trophy states to say that..but where I am there are no large deer, so I take any buck I can"....there is a reason you dont have any larger bucks. YOU. You can't shoot every .5 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer and expect to miraculously have 3.5+ year old deer. It doesnt work like that. You dont need to shoot any buck. I bet money that your tag would work just as well on a doe...and taste the same....it is the old school attitude that "Any buck is a bigger accomplishment than a doe" that has gotten many states int he trouble they are in. Many states you can shoot several bucks a season. The Game managers with the state want the numbers down, so you can get a few tags. They couldnt care less what you shoot, so long as deer are getting killed. This has a large impact on the number of mature deer, and young bucks make up the vast majoirty of Deer Harvested. This is true in almost every state.
> I continue to see the blame being put on "The gunhunters shooting everything" or "the neighbors shoot everything"....and those saying it seam to put that in a negative light...while at the same time shooting immature deer every year. Double standard? How can you talk down your nose about your neighbors shooting all the small bucks...while you do the same. If you arent part of the solution...you are part of the problem.
> The myth that excists that if you pass it someone else will take it is wrong as well. Look at Bowhunting success rates. Look at rifle success rates. Even in the states with the highest harvest rates well over 50% of the heard survives the deer season. Obviously some deer are being passed up. If we can grow the numbers of archers passing up small deer. If we can increase the umber of people exposed to QDM, we will see more bigger deer everywhere. You wont have to look in envy to those of us who live in places that harbour large deer. You can look down your road. If you take this opportunity to pass small deer and set an example, perhaps one day you will be able to look back and say that you contributed to the success fo your state. Perhaps you will be able to take some pride in the fact that you were part of the solution, rather than continuing to foster the problem.
> 
> WHY NOT SHOOT A DOE INSTEAD?? *


As I said before You can't compare That to Other places, in Louisiana you can kill 5 bucks and 6 does. Your one tag on a doe does not work where they allow 9 deer! Oh sure I would love to see only two bucks allowed but as I stated before it is not going to happen here.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Likewise, Xs24-7, you can't polish a turd.
If your area only has genetics for small deer you're only going to have small deer.
I know a guy up north where everything he shoots is like that no brow tine cull deer.

I might believe the restriction are for older deer claims once I stop seeing people talking about antler size and start talking about actual age proven by the teeth.



> Some guy may only see one buck a season. It happens.


I haven't seen a buck other than on the road since bow season started. Part of that is I got a doe a couple of weeks in and that's all I have room for so I haven't been going out much. But still, the way the last few years were I should've seen them early.
I don't really mind because I know that means the area is turning back into a doe area, I have gone years not seeing any does during early bow season. 
That change means I can probably get a doe with bow and if needed bucks will be total suckers in that area when shotgun season rolls around.


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Sorry, I did not read all the responses.

I shoot "small" bucks for several reasons. The first is I always shoot the first deer that offers a shot (Buck or Doe). Second, I can harvest a deer a day (at least). Third, around here a deer that breaks the score of 100 is considered a "BIG" deer, to most those are small. Fourth, its legal and I obey the laws of the state.

Think of it this way, if I kill a "small" deer it leaves you trophy hunters the "big" one walking around.



GTR


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

"Second, I can harvest a deer a day (at least)"

WHen the majrity of deer taken are immature bucks....any wonder that there isnt any larger ones?

"Third, around here a deer that breaks the score of 100 is considered a "BIG" deer, to most those are small."

How are you supposed to have mature deer...if you shoot them all when they are .5-1.5 years old? Why not just shoot a doe instead of shooting the dink buck? If the horns dont matter(and I dont know how a set of 60" horns are all that special)..then why not shoot a doe, so that one day you may have the chance at something to put on the wall? 
If everyone in your state shares your attitude...it is little wonder you have no older/larger deer.

btw...I am far from a "Trophy Hunter"....I just shoot a lot of does. I have hunteed every year since I ws 12, and my largest buck would go into the 140s, taken with a rifle. In my youth I was guilty of shootign a few dinks, but since then I have matured and grown out of the "any deer will do" attitude. I am glad that I live in an area where mature deer are appreciated by many hunters(certainly not all) and many hunters choose to pass the smaller bucks to allow them the oppotunity to mature.


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## ChampionPred (Aug 12, 2004)

If I were to let them go, I wouldnt get anything for 4-5 years. Some people are more meat hunters, classify me under that.


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## Devandrial (Sep 17, 2004)

I keep hearing the "if you want meat then just shoot a doe" thing repeated over and over. And I'm sorry, but I don't have a choice into which sex deer walks down the trail I'm sitting on. I've hunted 4 days a week since opening day, and I've seen one deer, a small doe that came in at 8 yards. Unfortunantly I forgot to trim one branch and it cost me big time. All I'm saying is, I love my vension, and if the only opportunity for a shot I get this season is a little basket racked buck, well, he's gonna become tenderloin, and sausage, and anything else my growling stomach tells me to make out of him. If I have a *CHOICE* between a doe and a small buck, of course I'm gonna take the doe, but come on.......it isn't as if we have thousands of does walking around and two or three bucks. Getting any deer within bow range isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. It's odd, here in Bama we have approx. 2.5 million deer, but you could fool me, we just don't see em that much.


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## SirWilliam (Nov 4, 2004)

*My trophy's*

As to only shooting big bucks...I am grateful to even see a buck! I hunt for meat for my freezer, for the great memories made with family and friends, and just to plain be in God's country. Most of my time in stand is simply spent listening to the woods and having some great prayer time with God. If I get a chance at a "trophy"...great! I would be stoked! But, if I don't, I get just as pumped and excited taking my doe(s) and sharing the "harvest of the beast" with family and friends. Bottom line...if you live in an area with monster bucks, and that is all you want to shoot, more power to you. Just don't think that anything else is any less of a trophy. Well...Gotta go now and grab a venison snack stick! 

By the way...my trophies taste great!


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## MN Doe Hunter (Dec 22, 2003)

No offense C-Nogle, but driving 45 minutes to go hunting isn't exactly a long drive. Every weekend I drive 3 hours to my parents place and then drive another hour from there each time I want to go out hunting. Some people drive further than that.

I love hunting & shooting a deer as much as the next guy. I also love to use my doe tags. Thus far this year I have only had 3 deer within easy bow range with no branches/limbs in the way. Easy shots you could say. Two have been yearling bucks, another was a buck fawn. I passed on all 3. The does I've seen have just been out of range or have gone down the wrong trail, etc. I mainly hunt public land. Sure, the chances are at least one of those bucks I've passed up have been blasted this year. Then again, there's a good chance they're still out there walking around and will be walking around next year. Fortunately the land I hunt is not heavily hunted. 

I put a lot of time into hunting and a lot of $$$ on gear, gas, etc and I don't want to waste my precious buck tag on a deer I wouldn't be proud of. But, that's just me. I'd rather chew on my tag come the end of the year than shoot a small buck. You never know, that young guy might make it through the next couple of years and give you an opportunity at a trophy you'd really be proud of.


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: My trophy's*



SirWilliam said:


> *As to only shooting big bucks...I am grateful to even see a buck! I hunt for meat for my freezer, for the great memories made with family and friends, and just to plain be in God's country. Most of my time in stand is simply spent listening to the woods and having some great prayer time with God. If I get a chance at a "trophy"...great! I would be stoked! But, if I don't, I get just as pumped and excited taking my doe(s) and sharing the "harvest of the beast" with family and friends. Bottom line...if you live in an area with monster bucks, and that is all you want to shoot, more power to you. Just don't think that anything else is any less of a trophy. Well...Gotta go now and grab a venison snack stick!
> 
> By the way...my trophies taste great! *


I agree completely...


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I saw this thread and said "my gosh how can somebody be so ignorant as to post something downing other HUNTERS" then I saw that the majority of them were from the state(s) that gave their electorial votes to Kerry/Edwards and it became clear as to why they are so ignorant. 

I'd rather live in a state where we kill more 90 pound basket racks than anything else...than to live in a state full of bigger deer, that the people endorsed John Kerry and voted in a guy named Obama into a senate seat. IF you all would have gotten your choice of president the only deer hunting you would have been doing would have been on your computer games.


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## pudldux (Jan 14, 2004)

in a couple of weeks I would like you to sit at the first toll booth just across the Illinois border by Beloit/Rockford. Tell me what you see on the majority of game carriers with IL plates. It will be spike, forks, and basket racks. You IL people come up to blast anything that moves.

Deer hunting is deer hunting no matter what size rack it has as long as the animal doesn't go to waste. The quicker I fill my tags the more time I got to chase ducks.


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## deerhunter17 (Mar 14, 2004)

Hi fulldraw, i have a question for you if you don`t like looking at those "small bucks" well don`t then. i get sick and tired of people like you complaining about people shoting small bucks!!!! i shot a 6 pointer the other day and let me tell you i was very proud of the deer. i shot my first buck last year, a 5 pointer, yes it was small, but to me that was a trophy to me, maybe not to you. some of us are not antler hunters like you, thats fine if you are but i am a meat hunter and i don`t care about the size of the deer or how many points on it i shoot. i myself like shoting little deer, they are better eating!!! so go ahead and eat your tough meat, dh17


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

is that what you were expecting fulldraw?

lol


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## booner (Mar 20, 2004)

FullDraw, Your lesson for Today! People get CRANKY when they only shoot small deer!!!!


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## teammac (Jul 17, 2004)

*Ohh My!!!*

Somebody done went and barked up the wrong tree!!!


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## allansarchery (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey Fellas
I just read the topic for this thread and could not believe some of your responces to the question why all the small bucks.
I would just like to know why you even care? I understand qdm and I try to practice it myself but if someone posts a pic of a deer they legally killed here, we should all be happy for them and give them praise. Obviously if they wanted to show it off I would assume that they are proud of thier deer, and who do you think you are to try and take that away from them.
You should think about what you say before you say it. Is rediculous to think that everyone will only shoot trophy class deer all the time. There are alot of reasons that people hunt and take the trophies that they do and I dont think any of them are any of your concern, So next time please refrain from insulting those of us that are benieth you.

I will not make excuses for aything I shoot so dont ask me to.

Shoot Straight
DEA


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## longhair (Oct 27, 2004)

Whats all them things sticking out of the top of those deers heads??? And how do ya cook them?? My biggest rack deer to date was a 5 pt. Little 5-6 yr old basket racked 5pt that supplied my family and myself with 72#s of meat... thats what I picked up from the processor. So was actually a large deer for my area. Have seen some pics of some larger racked deer in my area, but have not personally seen them. If I do, I will try my luck at them. If I don't, I will try my luck at an old doe. I try not to shoot the younger deer.... unless it is getting close to the end of season and that is all I am seeing. And then I try to take does, because the clubs around me all hunt horns.....I hunt deer. The antler restrictions are all fine and dandy if you are a trophy hunter. No other reason I can think of other than that. A tool of the state Wildlife Dept, that can justify higher fees for in-state and out of state license. Come here to hunt and you can kill Monster Deer. Don't come to my area.... we don't have big deer.........and if we do, I want them for my kids to shoot. They are like me, they will be happy with any size animal taken legally and ethically.....


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

C-Nogle, you make a good point, but you are already in the heart of great deer country. All the northeast states combined produce only a handful of 'booners" each year. If I wanted to hunt for 150" bucks I would have to drive at least 7 hours from where I live. I sacrifice as much as anyone to kill mature bucks (just ask my wife) but you reach a limit when you are talking about your everyday hunting. If I am making a 7 hour drive I need to stay for a week to justify it. 12 hours of driving a day just isn't practical. 

I still hunt around my home because I am not going to give up my day to day hunting that keeps my blood flowing between trips. This year alone I have let almost 30 bucks go, all 1.5 yr olds. I know most will die, but at least not at my hands. I think one of the best reasons to let them go is just so you can watch them. People have no idea all the awesome sights they would see if they let a few bucks walk by them. I had 7 bucks, including a heavy 6 and 7 pointer, along with several 4's and 6's chasing does around my stand all day yesterday. I watched them fight, breed, chase does, bed down . . . all within 50 yards of my stand. 

Anyways C-Nogle, watch out for a black 2000 extended cab GMC with NY plates, because its coming to an Ohio corn field near you.


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## rye (Jan 22, 2004)

because you can boil antlers forever and still won't be able to eat them. There are those out there that hunt for food, not for antlers. Thats why people shoot small bucks. Not everyone see's 30 deer a day from there stand, and not everyone can afford a 2000 acre lease. They have to hunt game lands with limited deer, and compete with dog hunters. Also, except for the first week and last week of the season, you can only take a buck on our gamelands. So, does are out of the question. take what is put in front of you, and know that your family will be nurished. 

I know and hunt with guys that spend a totally of 50$ a year on hunting. They buy their license and two boxes of shot gun slugs. They don't wear cammo, and hunt from the ground. They still manage to take the six deer they are alloted but usually takes them from Oct 10 when it opens to 1 Jan when it closes to do it. They don't bait, don't manage trophy bucks, and don't spend ungodly amounts of money on Scent lok. They simply hunt to feed their families. 

I hope this answers your question of why people shoot small bucks.


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## rye (Jan 22, 2004)

because you can boil antlers forever and still won't be able to eat them. There are those out there that hunt for food, not for antlers. Thats why people shoot small bucks. Not everyone see's 30 deer a day from there stand, and not everyone can afford a 2000 acre lease. They have to hunt game lands with limited deer, and compete with dog hunters. Also, except for the first week and last week of the season, you can only take a buck on our gamelands. So, does are out of the question. take what is put in front of you, and know that your family will be nurished. 

I know and hunt with guys that spend a totally of 50$ a year on hunting. They buy their license and two boxes of shot gun slugs. They don't wear cammo, and hunt from the ground. They still manage to take the six deer they are alloted but usually takes them from Oct 10 when it opens to 1 Jan when it closes to do it. They don't bait, don't manage trophy bucks, and don't spend ungodly amounts of money on Scent lok. They simply hunt to feed their families. 

I hope this answers your question of why people shoot small bucks.


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## flapjack (Oct 9, 2004)

*Why shoot small bucks????*

Why do you concern yourself with someone elses choice on what type of legal game they shoot?

Where do you get off being critical???


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## perchjerker (Sep 25, 2004)

*After reading these posts*

I just wonder whos buying those MONSTER BUCK videos,Realtree is making. It couldn't be you guys.


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## rye (Jan 22, 2004)

Perch, 

No, its not me... I spend my money on other things... that are more important.


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

perchjerker do you practice catch and release when jerking those perch?


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

Hey dbowers,

Is you buddy in the active military, or is he a junior hunter who just looks a little older?

Just askinbg because of the PA antler restricions. And personally, I think that the restrictions should apply to everyone, no exceptions for juniors or military.


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## High Brass (Aug 11, 2004)

Wow, what a can of worms here. Over the years, I have changed my ways and I don't necessarily take the first deer that I see. I have NO problems taking a doe where/when legal and I don't give a rat's butt if it's with a bow, gun, shoe lace, whatever. When I hunt the gamelands that Rye mentioned(we live in the same town) I take what I can, depending on the freezer fullness level(is that a word?). If it's empty, then I'd take a smaller buck if that's the only thing legal. If I have a choice though, I'll take a doe. When I go out of state, I don't take 1.5 year old deer anymore. Yes, some of the deer I take are only 4points or so, but the area that I hunt doesn't grow huge antlered deer. There are the occasional 8-10pointers but they are few and far between. Most of the deer we take are 2.5-3.5 years old, some older. I know that 2.5 isn't old and that 3.5 is better but nobody is perfect. We take mostly does anyway and the owner of the property all out refuses to take a big 8 or 10. He lets them do the breeding. He only takes scrub racked bucks that are around 3 years old or he takes a doe. He only takes one deer a year and he almost always takes a doe. I try to get 2-3 a year and most are does. Yes, I'd love to take a huge buck but I don't loose sleep over taking does and 3 year old 4-5pointers. Its my license, my equipment, my freezer, and my time afield. That's the bottom line. Hunt safe, hunt ethical, hunt often, and ejoy it.


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## ozdog (Jan 3, 2004)

*Question..*

in these areas with all the smaller deer, who is to say that these deer are .5 to 1.5 ? My friends are from PA and all the deer I've seen them take are just outright small body deer. The mountain terrain just does not produce mamouth deer.
To me they may look like young deer but the fact is tthey are not.
My friend shot a 7 point buck last year it was the biggest one there camp has ever taken in 40+ years of hunting. That deer aged at 5.5 years, but that don't change thge fact that it was still small. My friend was proud as a peacock, as he should have been.

These areas that produce a pile of small deer is in fact the very genetics of the deer in that area. 

THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU PAID FOR YOUR TAG, YOUR GEAR, YOUR GAS, YOU SHOOT WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT TO SHOOT!!

The cornfed states alot of deer are 115 to 130" @ 2.5 years as luck would have it there is pleanty of food to go around at the I've farmers expence hence the big deer. However, if it was all browse, mast and whatnot the tides would quickly turn. 

I'm with MYK as to shooting deer for the farmers.The goal is to fill my freezer and kill as many of crop damaging *******s as I leagly can.

The other side of the coin is I also hunt trophy deer @ personal standards. I let little bucks walk because I know the potential for the area I hunt, and sooner or later(rut) the chance will come.Been burned many a time and kicked myself in the ***, Seems the bucks in my area go nocturnal after there first year on their own. The biggest bucks nobody may ever lay eyes on him in the field, he is TOTALY nocturnal.

I'v said it before and I'll say it again....IT'S WHATEVER IS A TROPHY TO YOU!! and congrats on whatever deer you shoot !!


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## DeerAnil8r (Sep 23, 2004)

*Yeah well have a look at this monster*

Here is the button buck that I shot this year. I bet it dressed out at all of 55 lbs. 

Wanted to pop his mom, but she didnt present a shot. Thought that I noticed the nubs as he approached, but then I went into superfocus mode, didnt even cross my mind. 

Notice the 1996 Model Martin Firecat and Aluminum arrows. I know only _real_ hunters use Matthews and high dollar Carbons...but some of us manage anyways. The entry hole is right in front of the kisser where the cables cross. It was a quartering away shot, it exited right in behing the opposite shoulder and took out the that joint of the front right leg. Having some backstraps off this deer today for lunch. 

I was pumped as all hell when I shot it too.


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## ILbuck (Oct 19, 2004)

*Crow Terminator*

Just so you can understand the problem with IL. The day after the election I did some research county by county for the Presidential race and found out that Bush actually won 97 counties in IL as opposed to 17 for Kerry. Unfortunately, the ones Kerry won were Chicago/Cook County by 80%. We do not have enough votes in the rest of the state to make up what Chicago forces us into. So please do not judge most of us on AT from IL by what we are forced into in the political world.



As far as shooting small bucks....I feel it is the hunter's call. If it is legal in the state you are hunting, you should not be made to feel ashamed for shooting any animal you see fit. More importantly, I think it is silly to pass your judgement onto a fellow hunter.


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## WVDeerHnter (Oct 8, 2004)

*Trophy.*

I will kill any (legal) deer I get a good shot at.

Because it takes a large rack to make some people happy dont mean that is what it takes to be a trophy for everyone. Because of people that are only happy with large bucks if a buck and a doe come in together I will try to shoot the doe every time... but if she dont give me a shot and the buck does.... I dont care what size his horns are. 


Some peoples trophies go on the wall.. Mine go in the freezer.


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## ExitPupil (Dec 30, 2003)

*huh*

I have yet to hear a conclusive argument (other than "its legal") for shooting small bucks. Why not choose to shoot a doe? If all you are see is one small buck all season well thats one thing. But why not shoot some does if you have a good population. Also small deer in northern regions may be related to over population.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

ExitPupil,
In all of these posts I have yet to read even one of them that says they pass up does to take small bucks.
Where do you get that?


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## ExitPupil (Dec 30, 2003)

Myk

Sorry I have read so many posts in this thread its possible I was Mistaken. I will re-read at the next break in the action and have a quote for you asap. 
Thats what I get for trying to work at the same time!


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## B-DUB (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm an opportunist and it's all relative!


I shot a small 6 in northern Michigan early this year. I have passed up bucks twice his size this year were I hunt in southern Michigan.

In northern Michigan I hunt over bait and in southern Michigan I hunt staging areas by feeding areas. (such and bean or corn fields)

In Northern Michigan I would rather not shoot a doe because of the poor deer population I would rather shoot a small buck than a doe.

In Southern Michigan were the deer population is a-lot higher I would rather shoot a doe than a small buck.

That just me though. I don't really care what you do as long as it's legal and your happy.


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

*shooting multiple small bucks=little penis*

I agree that every area is different. I live in Norther Missouri and on my farm I have certain rules if the deer does not look 4 1/2 he walks, or you can shoot a doe. The only exception is a 3 1/2 year old that has less than desirable horns. Those can be shot on my place. If someone shoots a buck that looks 3 1/2 or under then they are banned for a year for the first offense the second time is banned for good. People just need to quit being so selfish *if they want to grow big deer*. If not then have at it gunner. I believe you should wait on what you really want and not settle because it is the last day. I won't shoot something on the last day that I wouldn't shoot on the first. I don't care what anybody says small bucks don't mean as much as more mature animals after that first buck is harvested. If they did mean as much then they would shoot the small 6 whenever it is walking with the 180 inch 12 pointer. How many guys would actually shoot the smaller one. NONE!!! So that is why we should all practice QDM and not worry about who else might be shooting the small one or poaching. That is going to happen anyways, are you helping out if you shoot a small one, because if you do shoot a small one then that might just mean someone else will shoot a small one as well. Then instead of just one dead small buck you have two. Wisen up people.


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## Ytailhtr (May 22, 2003)

Realtree's Monster Bucks, Buckmasters, and others have just about ruined hunting....PERIOD.....remember when it was no big deal to go hunting and you could walk up to a farmer and ask to hunt and he would say, "sure"....then along came the monster buck videos, and trophy hunting...and all the ease of access left the common hunter....now everything is leased up and QDM has people paranoid that someone is going to kill "their deer"....that they passed on....and those same people lease up or buy more land, raising the price of useless land (that used to be cheap, but now is "deer hunters paradise", so the price gets hiked up more and more)...sometimes I think that Realtree and Buckmasters have ruined hunting waaaay more than they claim to have helped it.....once you add trophy or money to anything, it just ruins it for everyone but the rich.....

I hunt DEER....period....and I enjoy the time in the woods as much as I can because someday, I guarantee you, I won't have access to any land because of greed for antler inches.....

Kelly


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

It's not trying to get the woods filled with B&C bucks, it's just about letting the young and immature deer have a chance! It's about shooting a good number of DOES to better MANAGE the herds. It's about keeping the herds in the best most healty condition and balancing the sex ratios and insuring that the most dominat and genetically superior animals breed. Ultimately, it's about a better experience for everyone involved! PLEASE practice QDM and use some common sense..... it isn't the 1800's folks! Our earliest generations of hunters are responsible for the horrible mismanagement and abuse of the herds....... it's up to US to correct it.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

*say what ?*



letemgrow said:


> So that is why we should all practice QDM and not worry about who else might be shooting the small one or poaching. That is going to happen anyways, are you helping out if you shoot a small one, because if you do shoot a small one then that might just mean someone else will shoot a small one as well. Then instead of just one dead small buck you have two. Wisen up people.


 huh !


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> It's not trying to get the woods filled with B&C bucks, it's just about letting the young and immature deer have a chance! It's about shooting a good number of DOES to better MANAGE the herds. It's about keeping the herds in the best most healty condition and balancing the sex ratios and insuring that the most dominat and genetically superior animals breed. Ultimately, it's about a better experience for everyone involved! PLEASE practice QDM and use some common sense..... it isn't the 1800's folks! Our earliest generations of hunters are responsible for the horrible mismanagement and abuse of the herds....... it's up to US to correct it.



It's certainly not for the meat anymore either, is it??


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## Blacktail Hunter (Jan 17, 2004)

Man, I'd sure like to have the problems some of you all have!

First off, we cant shoot does here in CA, so if we want MEAT, it hasta have horns on it. If those horns happen to be small, oh well.

Second, everyone doesnt have the luxury of hunting private land. On public land, you can bet.......if you dont shoot him, someone else will. It aint like the deer are as plentiful here as in some other areas of the country. 

I wish I had access to an area where I could be a little more choosey, but I dont. And you can believe I am pleased as punch to kill a 'small buck'. Not saying I go looking for small ones, but if he's legal, he's down. End of story.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> it isn't the 1800's folks! Our earliest generations of hunters are responsible for the horrible mismanagement and abuse of the herds....... it's up to US to correct it


BWAHAHAHAHA, it had nothing to do with how old or how big the deer were. It had to do with market hunting. The problem wasn't that there were too many scrawny young bucks, it was that they wiped out nearly all the deer so they could sell the meat.

The second I see someone bragging more about the age of the buck OR DOE they shot than they brag about the antlers, I'll believe it's all about the age.
Why does your picture show a huge NT instead of an old decrepit 6pt?
You proved the lie with that ad photo.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

"On public land, you can bet.......if you dont shoot him, someone else will."

It's a FACT that we all need to work hardest at changing peoples attitudes! We need to stand together and help educate the masses. The ol' mentality of "IF I don't shoot it, somebody else will" won't cut it anymore.


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## jman660 (Feb 20, 2005)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. What might not be a trophy to some might be to others. I'm still waiting to get my first deer with a bow, and if it was a little 4 pointer it would be a treasure to me and I would be proud as a peecot with him.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Myk,

"It's about keeping the herds in the best, most healty condition and balancing the sex ratios and insuring that the most dominate and genetically superior animals breed"...... note that I said genetically superior..... not a prehistoric 7 1/2 year old 6 pointer..... that animal would have long since been culled from the herd! 

How about we please keep this arguement to folks that actually hunt more than 2 days a year and will actually be a factor in ANY herd??? Not trolls that scour the boards looking for fights about anything they can get a jab in on. Back you butt up with some sound biological facts and please feel free to contact the QDMA or take a step back! As you know,...... deer, their hunting and their management aren't exactly your strong points bud???


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> "On public land, you can bet.......if you dont shoot him, someone else will."
> 
> It's a FACT that we all need to work hardest at changing peoples attitudes! We need to stand together and help educate the masses. The ol' mentality of "IF I don't shoot it, somebody else will" won't cut it anymore.



You and I can "stand together" next season in Illinois, then we can come back here to Pa. and stand with my 1.2 million hunting buddies on a nice tract of Pa.state land.... :shade: 

Maybe we will see a deer the first week, maybe not....


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Sound facts? Hunting is about food, not trophies. Old deer are not the best eating. That is a sound fact.
It is also a sound fact that this trophy envy is destroying hunting.

You can come up with all the childish flaming you want, but that still doesn't change the fact that the ad you posted does not show an older deer with a smaller rack.
Your childish flaming does not change the fact that nobody brags about the age of their deer.
Your childish flaming does not change the fact that if I was at the check station and YOU were checking in my 5 year old doe, you wouldn't care as much about it as you would a 2 year old 16pt.

And scientifically, that 6 or 7 year old should not have been culled. As long as they are breeding they're passing on their superior genes. 
Going by your claims, no trophies should be shot at their prime. They should all start showing signs that they are going downhill before you trophy hunters shoot them.

As everyone knows, consitancy in your thoughts isn't your strong point, but rationalization to lie to yourself and others is.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

"Hunting is about food, not trophies."..... about food?!? Do you live off of deer meat then??? Man, you better shoot a LOT more deer every year then!!! Hunting is a LOT deeper than just "food" to me and the thousands of others that are totally dedicated to these magnificent animals! I have NEVER looked at a deer and seen just a slab of meat. Go back to the cave paintings man!!! 

"Old deer are not the best eating.".......... that is a bunch of BS as well. I HAVE indeed taken 5 1/2 to 7 1/2 year old animals and our "Cornfed" whitetails are NOT any different when prepered correctly then MUCH younger animals. PROPER field care is a very important factor! Be more careful and learn to cook it and you'd be shocked! 

How much off the grocery bill did you save last year with all your meat hunting?? You must be eating a LOT of squirrel and '****! :teeth:


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

As a matter of fact I do live off mostly game. It takes 1 1/2 deer a year to feed me.

I had one of your types tell me how I should care for the meat. If you ever get the urge to invite me over for dinner, don't bother. Yes if you ruin the meat an old animal tastes the same as a young animal.

Not only do your "facts" fly in the face of animal husbandry, you're flying in the face of food prep and butchery. 
So you pay for prime cuts even though you're buying mutton or stew beef?
Like I said, rationalization is your strong point.


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## 230FPS (Feb 17, 2005)

In most places thats all people have in their area. Most areas around here get pounded to death during gun season and a buck is a buck, if you pass it someone else is bound to bag it. The only time this year i saw what I would consider a trophy was during bow season prior to the rut, in the huge woods of Georgetown, NY. Hunting big bucks on stateland is like looking for a needle in a pile of needles. But alot of hunters have good luck and live in a area where the big boys roam. Alot of people hunt for the meat, as my family and many others do, thats mainly what huntin is about, not the rack size, thats just a plus, Im happy with a spike or a doe, gives me the satisfaction that I have outsmarted my game.


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## wvbuckhunter (Mar 5, 2005)

I never ate a horn that tasted good


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## snoopy (Nov 10, 2003)

*wow FULLDRAW you sure got a few pages here.*

What I learned a few years ago and you must have an idea by now is that in the upper mid west we are spoiled. I don't kill a P&Y every year but I sure do see them. Many guys in the east and south can go years and not see a P&Y. Horns are not everything. My wife & I kill does every year. But, there is something about knowing he's out there or catching a glimpse of him.

So, invite someone out to Illinois to hunt with you. I just finished marking up some aerial photos of the badlands for a friend I've never met to come hunt mulies in September. I figure that I'll give some advice and directions for someone to come on a DIY hunt and see some nice bucks and maybe take one home. Hopefully they get a relatively cheap hunt and get to see some of the most beautiful, god forsaken country good ole North Dakota has to offer.


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## kerbyins (Sep 14, 2003)

Im no expert...but i have hunted in places like Illinois...but in my opinion it is 10 times easier to kill a deer there, even a P&Y, than it is to kill a small basket rack 6 or 8 point here in Alabama.


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## Bowhunter57 (Dec 14, 2002)

FullDraw09,
I "trophy" is defined by each individual hunter.

I shot a doe one fall, checked it in and the guy at the check station gave me hell for shooting a "skin head", instead of a buck. I never went back to that check station and I let him know that's why I wouldn't be back too. A doe is what I wanted to shoot, that year and if I so decide that's what I'll shoot every year.

If someone wants to shoot a buck, I don't go off on that hunter and ask, "Why didn't you shoot a doe?"

I certainly wouldn't create a thread asking such a question. It does nothing more than cause more division between hunters and bowhunters alike.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57


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## Eric Mamo (Jun 10, 2004)

Bowhunter57 said:


> FullDraw09,
> I "trophy" is defined by each individual hunter.
> 
> I shot a doe one fall, checked it in and the guy at the check station gave me hell for shooting a "skin head", instead of a buck. I never went back to that check station and I let him know that's why I wouldn't be back too. A doe is what I wanted to shoot, that year and if I so decide that's what I'll shoot every year.
> ...


It's very true: the heard needs to be balanced, and some bucks as well as does must be taken. When I take does in my area, I'm ALWAYS looking for the weakest one; last season i took one with a broken leg, it took me till the last week of the season to get a shot on her. now the healthy ones are still running around to make more healthy ones. The way i think about it, from a conservationist point of view, the weak doe is not going to give much at all to the populatoin of deer, if it did reproduce, the chances of it, or its offspring, getting eaten my coyotes is to high compared to a healthy deer. so why not take weak ones?

>Eric


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## Striker2 (Feb 18, 2005)

Why do people shoot such small bucks?

Same reason people drive a certain truck, shoot a certain bow, marry a certain girl - personal preferance?


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

*Just keep it up!*

Amazing, this comes up alot around here...nothing like busting out fellow hunters. If we can not enjoy each others success without criticism, we will not have to worry about big bucks, because hunting will be lost due to our own ignorance! So, just keep it up.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*hey...*

fulldraw you will go nowhere with this post. i live in missouri and we have a vast variety of small deer and large deer. i agree with you 100% and i too wonder why people shoot doinkers. i like how you ask an opinion question too someone and people start getting mad about CAR INSURANCE, HELPING FARMERS, and CALLING PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE QDM IDIOTS. you never asked "WHY DO ALL THESE IDIOTS SHOOT LITTLE SCRUBS?" did you? all it does is fire them up and you can pm me anytime and i will have an honest conversation with you without blowing up. good question, but a partial bad audience to ask. :smile:


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*also...*

MYK, i am not starting a fight here, but you said, "hunting is about food, not trophies". how can you say that when maybe it is only about food to you. i am not starving and it isn't about food to me, but it may be to someone else. you get too mad man. LETEMGROW made a good point..(hey phil) that when you shoot a little buck for the SOLE PURPOSE that if you don't, someone else will shoot him then do you think if you shoot him then that someone else will just quit hunting? no. he will shoot another one and then two little deer die. i hunt on LETEMGROW and i can tell you i had to pass on some young bucks that would fire anyone up, but i chose to take a doe instead because of the rules. i like the farm and i don't want to be ban. does that make me an idiot? no. i did my part. i got some meat and let a young buck walk in the process and the neighboring farmer said thanks for shooting one deer. i don't raise them, but i only have so many tags. so my point is, that you said you are helping the farmer, and i believe that is important. but, if you only get 3 tags, and you pass up young bucks to shoot does, you still filled those tags and helped the farmers. so don't call us idiots because we choose to do that and we won't call you one for thinking that is wrong. :teeth:


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> how can you say that when maybe it is only about food to you


Somehow I find it hard to swallow that Mr. Caveman came home empty handed because the animal he was after was too small.
Nobody I know passes up a shot on a rabbit or squirrel because it wasn't a trophy. If they pass up the shot it's because it was too small to bother cleaning for the table.

Mr. Caveman may have been the talk of the town when he downed a huge animal, but he certainly didn't pass up the food in order to continue going after the trophy.

American Indians sure didn't run herds of buffalo off cliffs just to get a head mounted.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

In the midwest, if you are a meat hunter, why not just wait on a doe? why?


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

In the midwest, if you are a trophy hunter, why not just wait on a world record? Why?
Aren't you the ones saying let them go so they can grow? So why take anything less than a record?


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Myk said:


> In the midwest, if you are a trophy hunter, why not just wait on a world record? Why?
> Aren't you the ones saying let them go so they can grow? So why take anything less than a record?


That was stupid, answer the question


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

As long as what I shoot is legal what difference does it make to anyone else if I choose to shoot a small buck? Upset that I may be killing your future Booner????????? The day I hunt to impress, please, or otherwise worry about what others think of my kills, someone please shoot me. I could give a rat's patooty less about antlers. If I decide to shoot a buck, and it is legal, who cares how big the antlers are, I don't.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

reylamb said:


> As long as what I shoot is legal what difference does it make to anyone else if I choose to shoot a small buck? Upset that I may be killing your future Booner????????? The day I hunt to impress, please, or otherwise worry about what others think of my kills, someone please shoot me. I could give a rat's patooty less about antlers. If I decide to shoot a buck, and it is legal, who cares how big the antlers are, I don't.


I dont know what it is like in GA, but here if you were hunting property next to me I would care.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Myk said:


> Somehow I find it hard to swallow that Mr. Caveman came home empty handed because the animal he was after was too small.
> Nobody I know passes up a shot on a rabbit or squirrel because it wasn't a trophy. If they pass up the shot it's because it was too small to bother cleaning for the table.
> 
> Mr. Caveman may have been the talk of the town when he downed a huge animal, but he certainly didn't pass up the food in order to continue going after the trophy.
> ...


You know, you're right. But, I submit to you that the majority of today's hunters are *NOT* hunting for sustinance. Sure, they eat what they kill, but definitely wouldn't starve without it. So, your argument here is somewhat pointless.

I think the point here should be that if you are hunting to feed your family, then anyone be damned if they judge you for your harvest sex/age preferences. Survival comes before the needs/wants of popular culture.

However, if you are like the rest of us, and to you, hunting is a recreation, then you *DO* have a choice. And I don't know a single hunter who would, given the choice, always kill small bucks if larger ones were just around the corner. Oftentimes the ones I hear b1tching and moaning the loudest at the check stations are the same ones that just got done checking in a truck bed full of basket racks and spikes. To each his own, but you can and will make a difference if *YOU* choose to make a difference. As a testament to that, I submit my success story. I own roughly 300 acres in N. MO. However, 5 years ago I set out to establish a CO-OP with neighbors who shared the same mgmt goals that I had. It wasn't easy to start, but now we have over 3,000 private acres under the same mgmt plan. Our doe numbers have decreased and our buck harvests have improved dramatically. This past fall, only 4 bucks were taken and none were under 150" with the largest comming in at over 183". And, through our game camera survalence, next year will prove to be even better. All it took was allot of hard work from all participants and 5 years of patience.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

reylamb said:


> As long as what I shoot is legal what difference does it make to anyone else if I choose to shoot a small buck? Upset that I may be killing your future Booner????????? The day I hunt to impress, please, or otherwise worry about what others think of my kills, someone please shoot me. I could give a rat's patooty less about antlers. If I decide to shoot a buck, and it is legal, who cares how big the antlers are, I don't.


Great! Don't care about antlers??? Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind shooting does only from now on, right??? Heck, they're much more plentiful then the bucks anyway. Regardless of what you think, you *DO* have a role in everyone else's happiness and success. And the choices you make as a hunter *DO* effect other hunters around you. Why not help others out around you by passing on young bucks, since you have already admitted that antlers aren't important to you??? Either own up that antlers *DO* matter to you or do your civic duty and support your other neighboring hunters buy becoming more of a team player.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

You answer my question, Josh. I think you'll find the same answer applies to both questions.

You don't always have a record deer available to shoot and it may be a long wait before one comes up. 
A meat hunter doesn't always have a doe available to shoot and it may be a long wait before one comes up.

But you are the ones who say let them go so they can grow. That 130" dead buck isn't going to grow any more is it?

If you want to stick to your claim of "that was stupid", in which case, the same also applies to your question.



> I think the point here should be that if you are hunting to feed your family, then anyone be damned if they judge you for your harvest sex/age preferences. Survival comes before the needs/wants of popular culture.


Yet we have the Cornfeds and Josh Michaelises doing just that.

I agree that those who complain about there being no big bucks shouldn't be shooting the small bucks. But there are some people who hunt for food. If you read this whole thread, that is the reason most are giving.
If I didn't hunt for food I probably wouldn't bother hunting. I gave up shotgun hunting deer because my freezer is full.
I can go sit in the woods with a camera if all I wanted to do was get close to big deer. If it's not about food, why bother killing it?

Why don't you become the team player and allow people to come on your land to shoot those plentiful does?


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Myk said:


> Why don't you become the team player and allow people to come on your land to shoot those plentiful does?


I do. We harvest does in a 4:1 ratio. I've got 3 guys that come up and hunt does for me and I always donate at least one doe to a local famly in need.

Mike


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Myk said:


> You answer my question, Josh. I think you'll find the same answer applies to both questions.
> 
> You don't always have a record deer available to shoot and it may be a long wait before one comes up.
> A meat hunter doesn't always have a doe available to shoot and it may be a long wait before one comes up.
> ...


130 in deer do get bigger, and if you have a hard time waiting on a doe where you live then you are either a bad hunter or impatient


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*I used to get REAL bent out of shape with so many litttle....*

......forkhorns and 6-points getting shot. Eventually, you realize you're just wasting your breath talking about QDM to your "average bowhunter"....they just wanna kill something...anything....

What really cracks me up are the guys who start-out the season saying "I'm a meat hunter....I don't care about horns.....ya can't eat the horns!"

Then this same guy gets REAL lucky and shoots a nice, 130" buck that makes book. MOST of these clowns will then leave the woods saying "yeah, those little ones ain't worth draggin' out of the woods!"  

You see my point here? Their hunting-philosophy changes at random, based on their circumstances, which makes it obvious they don't have any real standards at all (other than merely staying legal).....

We could all shout, scream, encourage, complain and raise all kinds of hell over shooting small bucks, but in the final analysis, a guys going to shoot what he wants, period......not worth wasting your breath over.....


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> I do. We harvest does in a 4:1 ratio. I've got 3 guys that come up and hunt does for me


Can't argue with that. Does good for hunting by getting people who normally wouldn't have land to hunt into it rather than sticking them on public land where they lose interest.
I wish more people did that rather than seeing how many doe tags they can fill.

Josh, once again, I mainly hunt 10 acres. Most year's it's a funnel to doe bedding areas. That means does will come through there all season long, once the rut starts bucks start passing through. Great hunting all around.
Some years the bucks get wise and they root around the bedding areas before the does want them. This makes the does find other places to be. This makes for crappy hunting if I have to follow YOUR rule and not shoot bucks. Talk about a bad hunter, look in the mirror.
I think I've made you the offer before, if you don't want me shooting FOOD, buy me a side of beef or shut up.
Or if you want me to only shoot does, buy me some land and tell me to only shoot does. The only way I'll follow your rules is if I'm getting something out of it. I'm not going to follow your rules because you're a blowhard on the internet.

130" deer don't get any bigger if you shoot them because they are a trophy. So why don't you pass on the 130's and let them grow? If 160" is your limit, why don't you pass on them and let them grow? If your limit is 200" why don't you pass on them and let them grow?
Exactly where do you draw the line and why do you think it is your place to draw the line for other people?

TexasGuy, making up stories does not prove anything.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Myk, if you only hunt 10 acres, why do you preach about helping the farmer all of the time?

Meat hunters are only meat hunters untill a trophy walks by.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*i agree...*

MIKE TRUMP you need to come up and shoot bows with us sometime in north missouri. also you are right and so is josh. i don't understand why people get mad over trophy hunters. also, how can you compare us with MR. CAVEMAN. MYK if you and MR CAVEMAN are so close; then why don't you go KNAP out a head and make a spear because that modern day equipment you use would make MR CAVEMAN roll over in his grave. heck, your meat might taste like carbon or aluminum if you don't spear your game. MR CAVEMAN wouldn't shoot a deer with a gun because it could blow a hole in it and ruin some of that valuable meat you rely on to maintain life functions. so don't criticize the trophy hunter for his/her views because you still live in a cave and rely on your kill to survive. the rest of us will keep working at our jobs, go to the grocery store on occasion, and eat the does we kill and one of these days our lifelong dreams will be fulfilled with that trophy buck we held out for because of our WILL POWER.


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## fixerupper (Jan 29, 2004)

danimal7802 said:


> i don't understand why people get mad over trophy hunters.



It's not that people get mad at trophy hunters..... I think the angst comes from "trophy hunters" questioning the animals that are harvested.

Some people hunt horn, some hunt meat, some hunt for the sheer enjoyment of being in the woods with friends and family.

Some have taken the personal "yardstick" they use to define success or failure in the field and assumes everyone else has the same hunting goals as he, and then is shocked aghast and amazed when somone harvests an "inferior" animal.... according to them any way.

Do I like to hunt and kill big deer???... yes.
Will I kill "lesser" animal.... Yes.
Would I impune another for hunting differently than I do....No.

Hunt and kill all the book bucks you want if thats yer gig, but dont expect the rest of the hunting world to conform your sense of success and failure.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Where I hunt, killing a button buck, 18 month old, or even a 2.5 year old buck is not a difficult task. In fact, it is much easier than shooting an alpha doe in most cases. These deer can be just plain stupid during the rut. I will question and even chastize anyone that shoots a deer of this quality with a bow around the area of which I own property. I took a pretty hard dressing down for shooting a 120" 8 pointer that field-dressed 170 pounds this past year. A solid 3.5 year old. It was a good deer, but I deserved every bit of hell that I caught for shooting him for the most part. I mistakingly shot the deer thinking it to be a 10 pointer I had seen a day or two earlier. I should have never drawn down on him. I would much rather have seen the buck live or even shot by another hunter. But, I can't take it back. The way it went down, the deer had already met his fate before he walked by. It all happened too quick and I mistakingly got caught up in the moment. 

Now, public land hunting can be entirely different. I can vouch for this from experience as well. I too used to shoot the first deer that I saw when hunting the MTNF of southern MO. I wouldn't do it now because I have grown and do not feel the need to kill like I once did. Nowadays, I would be every bit as happy if so-n-so across the ridge killed that forked horn that I passed on. I've got other places to hunt these days. But if it were my only place to hunt and I wanted meat, I suppose I would kill the animal.

The way that I see it, if you are a novice to hunting and feel the need to kill a few to put a few notches in the belt, then take a few. If you are experienced and have a decent herd with a few respectible bucks in the area, then you have no need to shoot a 1.5 year old or even a 2.5 year old buck for that matter. If you are on public land and it might be the only deer you see all year, whack away. While we have the premier department in the country with respect to wildlife, I have yet to see them do anything with improving the deer herd on public land.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Snake, I practice the same type of selection in one place I hunt, and have passed on several 2.5 yr olds that were in the 110 to 125 inch range the past few years. But in my home state, I would never do that, because I hardly ever see those deer to pass them. If this is true...


PoisonSnake said:


> Where I hunt, killing ...even a 2.5 year old buck is not a difficult task.


and killing a 2.5 yr old is not a difficult task, you hunt a very unique place in America today. Please realize that in 99 percent of the areas hunted by 99 percent of the hunters in this country, your statement is not representative of what hunters face. 

This part of your post I have a problem with...


> I will question and even chastize anyone that shoots a deer of this quality with a bow around the area of which I own property.


Unless it is on your property, you really shouldn't be chastising someone for shooting any deer they deem is a trophy, 2.5 yr old or button buck. That is pure arrogance to think that you have any standing to do that, and it's why many people attack those of us who do practice QDM for trying to push our values on everyone else. If someone kills a deer you don't approve of, and it's not on your property, you have no business questioning or chastising them at all. 

If this part is true....


> I took a pretty hard dressing down for shooting a 120" 8 pointer that field-dressed 170 pounds this past year. A solid 3.5 year old. It was a good deer, but I deserved every bit of hell that I caught for shooting him for the most part.


...I feel sorry for you because others, who espouse the same type of arrogance that you posted you would exhibit, have taken the fun out of shooting even a 3.5 yr old deer. That is really sad.

With respect to this quote...


> If you are experienced and have a decent herd with a few respectible bucks in the area, then you have no need to shoot a 1.5 year old or even a 2.5 year old buck for that matter.


...none of us really have any business deciding what other hunters *need* to be shooting, that is an individual choice. 

Snake, you and I probably hunt pretty much the same, would enjoy sharing a hunting camp together, and carry the same type of values into the woods, how 'bout we leave them there and not start belittling other hunters who don't have the same definition of a trophy as we do? 

Happy trails.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

*"Why do people shoot such small bucks?*

It's pretty tough to grill and eat them if you don't shoot them

Believe it or not not EVERYONE is all fired up about big antlers..


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Myk, if you only hunt 10 acres, why do you preach about helping the farmer all of the time?
> 
> Meat hunters are only meat hunters untill a trophy walks by.


What is under those trophy antlers? A sack of potatoes? All deer are MEAT.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

I must've said something that got to Josh. He ignored everthing I said, the internet version of change the subject.

I preach about helping farmers because that's why I got into deer hunting, Josh. I know farmers and I do hunt near one friend's fields. But it just happens that this ten acres is a funnel and I can be there in five minutes vs the twenty minutes it takes me to get to a farm I can hunt, naturally the closer is my normal hunting grounds since it is a better spot. Is that OK with you or do you have a different rule that you want me to follow?

The same goes for you, danimal7802. What does flint knapping have to do with hunting for food. Do you think primitive cultures were primitive because it was more sporting??? Do you think the American Indian, who more than willingly used rifles wouldn't have used a compound???
Did my caveman reference really make that much of an impact on you that you had to try to change the subject?

When your view is that I should change my ways of hunting to benefit your desires in hunting, I will critisize you. Are you that bad of a hunter that you need everyone in the country to pass on all bucks just so you can shoot one?
I'll play by your rules just as soon as you start providing me with land to hunt on. Until then, you can shut up too.


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## Whitetail Crazy (Jan 21, 2005)

*Shoot what you want*

In my opinion, I believe that there is a fine balance in one hunter taking some of the smaller bucks and another waiting for his trophy based off his self induced limit. I see many young bucks that I pass on but know that if they walk by my nephew they are going to get shot. His limit grows with each deer because he wants to shoot deer the size that I do but at the same time there are friends of his that are still in a stage that want to shoot what he is shooting. I shoot plenty of does so my freezer is never empty, if it were I would shoot what I had to to put meat in it. In my area the gun hunters shoot anything including young bucks which there are plenty of. I would rather have them shoot the small bucks than possibly the buck that I have been chasing all of bow season. This is not to say that everyone has to evolve into a trophy hunter so do not analyze this and read something into this that I am not implying. I also have many people around were I hunt that shoot the first thing that comes by and don't care if they ever get a big deer. I hope that those people never change either. I think we need those people as a balance.
What does bother me about this thread is that it some people on here think that in Illinois you can simply walk into the timbers and shoot a Boone and Crocket buck with little or no effort. This is not the case. This offends me because of the hard work and time that I put into my hunting every year. No I do not have a b/c buck on my wall yet and not from a lack of effort, I put more time in the timber than most and consider myself a fairly good hunter. I admit that we in Illinois are extremely fortunate to have the numbers and quality of deer that we have. MOST tracts of land are too small to enforce QDM. So shoot what you want and let others do the same, it will balance out in the end. 
My self imposed rule is that if I shoot a buck it must go on the wall regardless of size. Taxidermy bills are not cheap. A group of hunters in my area have adopted that rule, everyone of them have different goals of what they want but it still works.

Aron Shofner


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

"Meat hunters are only meat hunters untill a trophy walks by."......  

NO truer words have ever been spoken!!! I've said it many times myself! Riddle me this..... why is it that these so called "meat hunters" always the ones at our local check stations crying about how there are no big bucks around??  I honestly believe that true "meat hunters" are very, very few and far between! Most simply hide behind the term as an excuse for shooting the first thing they see for fear of not getting "their" deer.


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## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

1bigtaco said:


> "eww eww, i live in Illinois....let me toot my horn a bit"
> 
> Why do people shoot such small bucks? Hmm...have you ever thought that MAYBE some of these small bucks you refer to are some of the biggest deer in the area....Did you know that a 110" deer in Alabama is considered HUGE? Or maybe these deer are even killed off public land in the same states that produce "small" deer. That was real big of you to directly attack some of your fellow AT member trophies.....and Yes a 100" deer is a trophy to me.


I'm from here in Bama also ....That 100" sure does look nice when he's strollin by . We have alot of deer... not big deer... thats why our season is so long and liberal. SO, WITH THAT BEING SAID, THAT SMALL BUCK TO SOME OF YALL IS A NICE TROPHY TO SOME OF US......


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Guys the issue is MATURE deer..... doesn't matter if that deer is a 'bama 100"er or a Sask 200"er, it's all about gettin' a couple years on 'em! I will also add that many of the folks that swear that they have NO "big" deer in there areas should take a peek at records like P&Y or even state listings..... they are there and I think many of you would be very surprised by what the top end in your state might actually be?? It has been proven time and time again that the genetics ARE there in most herds. Most of the animals just lack AGE and nutrition. It just takes an effort and a degree of sacrifice to get quality animals on the property YOU hunt. :shade:


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## dingo (Feb 9, 2005)

Why do people shoot such small bucks?

IMO.... 

1. I don't complain about rarely getting a big buck-I know they're there.
2. I don't have to prove my manhood vicariously through deer harvested
3. I am getting too old  to worry about such trivial matters.
4. I hunt to have fun-any deer is fun to shoot.
5. Hunting is a private matter-I will not impose my perception as your reality- nor should you.
6. I have other things to do as well-cut firewood, fish, grouse hunt.
7. Hunting is recreation-not my profession. (I'd starve)
8. It is neither illegal nor immoral.
9. A big buck is a magnificant animal-there is no shame in allowing it to live.
10. I pay the property taxes-I'll shoot what ever deer strikes my fancy at any time I choose during the season.

I admire those who are willing to put forth the substantial effort and time to get a big buck on a regular basis. Better hunters than I. But some people just don't care as much-the quality and experience of the hunt is in no way diminished by getting a smaller buck or doe. They all look the same in a box in the freezer-and taxidermy bills are very expensive. As far as neighboring properties, if I wanted to control what happens on it- I should have purchased it.


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

I think most hunters go through stages as mentioned in the hunter's education course. We process deer and I hear all kinds of stories or reasons why different hunters shoot different deer. I never have understood some of the guys that say "I'm a meat hunter", and then shoot a button head buck!

I'm thinking, there is not much to harvesting that immature button head 4 point etc. But if you are hunting for "meat" why not try to get as much meat as you can? A mature doe is great eating and tougher to harvest than a 2.5 year old buck or less. Studies have proved that if deer buck doe ratio's are close that a body weight increase of up to 15 % can be achieved. Wow, more meat why not go for it. All that being said, we charge the same amount for a button head vs. a 200 lb. deer. Keep shooting the babies....on your lease.


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## syksvlljohn (Mar 13, 2005)

*reply*

well i know i posted a pic of my sisters buck it might not be the biggest we dont have to many big ones in our area but hey we dont hunt for competion our braging rights we hunt for food to feed the family and for the fun of it but every body has there own opinion and i respect yours take care john


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## centercut (Oct 2, 2004)

I don't feel I have any more right to tell other hunters what type of deer they should shoot than I have to tell them how they should dress, what type of vehicle they should drive, what type of person they should date, etc.........


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## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> Guys the issue is MATURE deer..... doesn't matter if that deer is a 'bama 100"er or a Sask 200"er, it's all about gettin' a couple years on 'em! It just takes an effort and a degree of sacrifice to get quality animals on the property YOU hunt. :shade:


I agree with you on the above statment....I will let the smaller bucks pass on particular pieces of private property that i hunt......even though i have permission to take anything i like..These particular pieces of property have some quality deer & genetics and it is managed quite well and holds deer even though there is several clubs that border it. Out of the last 20 seasons, there has been only a limited # quality deer taken.... They are few and far between and i respect the landowners goal of QDM................_but then there are the public areas I hunt where the QDM is (if its brown its down) so i feel i shouldn't be put down by other hunters because i have to take a smaller deer, than what i normally would pass up somewhere else (in order to put meat in the freezer). because if I don't shoot it, someone else will...& until we have an antler restriction here on public land...thats almost all we get to take is the smaller class deer.

PS. this is not an attack on you I just used your quote to express what kind of areas *I have to hunt * and what i have to contend with in different areas..... My hats off to anyone in their area that can stay on the "high end"
of antler size for their harvest but at the same time I would like the same hat tipped my way for the areas that I hunt and the size of antlers I may have to take in order to fill my freezer...._


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## crodog (Mar 1, 2005)

I AGREE WITH DINGOO...WELL SPOKEN... :cocktail:


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

IF i lived in IL. i would wait on a 150" deer. Do that in NJ and you just be waiting....

What difference does it make what they are shooting? If they decide its the animal they want to take then thats that. Every animal whether a doe or state record to me is a trophy. Venison for the freezer and possibly a plack for the wall. If not don't take the animals life.


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

dingoo said:


> Why do people shoot such small bucks?
> 
> IMO....
> 
> ...


Very well said,to bad some can't understand it though... 

"Meat hunters are only meat hunters untill a trophy walks by."...... 

If a nice doe walks out,I'll try to take her...
If she comes out with a big buck,I'll try for him....
If a legal buck comes out by himself,I'll try for him....

My point,I'll shoot what I want to if its legal....
On the land I hunt the farmers are fed up with them and they are not real concerned about QDM....


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

The claim, _"Guys the issue is MATURE deer"_
The truth, _""big" deer", "the genetics ARE there"_
The rationalization, _"why is it that these so called "meat hunters" always the ones at our local check stations crying about how there are no big bucks around??"_

I didn't know there were genetics to get age. So what are those genetics you talk about doing, growing big antlers? Quit lying, it's about antlers and you know it.

Not one of the meat hunters I know complain about no big bucks. NOT A ONE! The only person I know who does complain is a trophy hunter who spends more time at home eating breakfast, eating lunch, taking a bathroom break or any other excuse he can come up with to not put his time in the woods.



> I never have understood some of the guys that say "I'm a meat hunter", and then shoot a button head buck!


Why do people eat veal? Fawns are very tender meat. The bad thing about them is they lack iron so they're not the best for health, but most people get enough iron in their diets.

Whether I'll take a fawn or not depends on freezer space. If I'm just topping off I don't care what it is. If I'm running low it needs to be full grown. If I only have a little room I out for a fawn.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

dingoo said:


> Why do people shoot such small bucks?
> 
> IMO....
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Dingoo spelled it out perfectly. :thumbs_up


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

DV1: Let me try to make my point a bit more clear.

First of all, you are correct in stating that the area of which I hunt is very unique. It is considered to be one of the more populated regions of MO with respect to deer. I do recognize that most hunters do not share the same fortune as myself. 

Secondly, I know most all hunters around me, so we tend to get a bit aggrivated when someone shoots a small buck. We have about a square mile that we have some control over what gets shot and what doesn't. Outside of that, we really don't care what happens. I wouldn't call it arrogance per sey, but we tend to look down on one another ifn' we shoot a "sammich" buck. Now, my wife killed her biggest buck to date this year. A 2.5 year old 8 pointer. Not a word was ever said. But, she clearly stated she would never shoot another buck that small.

As far as taking the beating for shooting the 8 pointer. I deserved it to a point. Now, none of the local landowners said a word. I felt silly enough. The beating took place on another website where the fellows know the quality of deer I have taken in the past and the quality of deer around the area of which I hunt. Like I said, I deserved some of it for sure. The sad thing is this; I had seen this beautiful 130 class 10 pointer two days in a row. This 8 pointer snuck by me. I didn't even see him until he was 35 yards past me. I saw height, mass, and a decent spread. I drilled him at 40 yards walking away. I was a bit disappointed that I had taken the wrong deer.

At this point, I draw the line at 120-130" deer. At some point, I hope to better that to 140" deer. I have been lucky to kill a few 140" deer, but they don't come around terribly often. Could be because all of us are shooting the 120 inchers. The fact is, I don't see enough 140" deer in a year to be passing on every other 125" deer that I see, or at least that is how I rationalize it in my mind.

I recognize there are areas of this country that are very much unlike the area of which I hunt. Heck, there are those areas around my county like this. In some of these areas, even seeing a forked horn in a single year is a bonus. I tend not to worry much about anything killed outside of our "Honey Hole".


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## ARMallardSlayer (Mar 27, 2003)

If it's legal, shoot it if you want to......it's up to you.

Don't need other people telling you what you should shoot.


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> Guys the issue is MATURE deer..... doesn't matter if that deer is a 'bama 100"er or a Sask 200"er, it's all about gettin' a couple years on 'em! I will also add that many of the folks that swear that they have NO "big" deer in there areas should take a peek at records like P&Y or even state listings..... they are there and I think many of you would be very surprised by what the top end in your state might actually be?? It has been proven time and time again that the genetics ARE there in most herds. Most of the animals just lack AGE and nutrition. It just takes an effort and a degree of sacrifice to get quality animals on the property YOU hunt. :shade:


AMEN. Myk doesn't want to understand...is that obvious by now?


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> I honestly believe that true "meat hunters" are very, very few and far between! Most simply hide behind the term as an excuse for shooting the first thing they see for fear of not getting "their" deer.


exactly


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

> Originally Posted by Cornfed
> I honestly believe that true "meat hunters" are very, very few and far between! Most simply hide behind the term as an excuse for shooting the first thing they see for fear of not getting "their" deer.


The only problem is see with this line of thinking is that some people actually believe that other hunters have to justify, or have an excuse for, what they shoot. You guys certainly are entitled to your opinion of what you think about how many real "meat hunters" are out there, but to think that any other hunter should have to explain or justify to you why they shot a legal deer is kinda weird. Who among us is so important that other hunters have to justify anything to us about a legal deer? 

Personally, I'm a deer hunter. :smile: 

When I hunt Ohio, I pass up 2.5 yr old deer, and that means letting go some very good 120+ bucks in the last few years, bigger bucks than anything I've taken in NJ, but not what I want to shoot in Ohio. When I hunt NJ, a 2.5 yr old that suits my fancy will get an arrow every time. Also, if I'm hungry to try a new recipe that calls for some tender venison, I intentionally set out to shoot a small doe. I try to avoid button bucks, and have managed to avoid them all but 3 times in the last 25 years but if I shoot one, it's not a crime. 

So, I pass some deer because they are only 2.5, I shoot some because they are 2.5 and I shoot some specifically for the meat, but I eat them all. I like shooting them, butchering them, cooking them and eating them, so I guess I could be considered a meat hunter. Actually, we are all deer hunters, so I don't understand all the sniping about someone killing a buck you wouldn't shoot. _They_ buy the license, may be on _their_ property, it's _thier_ tag, _their_ hunt, _their_ satisfaction, _their_ pictures, _their_ meat and _their_ memories, why does what anyone elses standards are matter?




PoisonSnake said:


> DV1: Let me try to make my point a bit more clear.
> 
> ... I know most all hunters around me, so we tend to get a bit aggrivated when someone shoots a small buck. We have about a square mile that we have some control over what gets shot and what doesn't. Outside of that, we really don't care what happens. I wouldn't call it arrogance per sey, but we tend to look down on one another ifn' we shoot a "sammich" buck. ...As far as taking the beating for shooting the 8 pointer. I deserved it to a point. ...The sad thing is this; I had seen this beautiful 130 class 10 pointer two days in a row. This 8 pointer snuck by me. I didn't even see him until he was 35 yards past me. I saw height, mass, and a decent spread. I drilled him at 40 yards walking away. I was a bit disappointed that I had taken the wrong deer.


That does make it a little more clear. This sounds like you have a group thing going on where some standards have been established, and if someone falls below what is loosely agreed upon, you bust his stones. I can understand that. Before, it sounded like you were giving grief to hunters around you because they shot something you (or your group) didn't approve of, without those neghbors being in your loose co-op.


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## Ytailhtr (May 22, 2003)

Man, can we drop this and just TRY to get along....be happy for the hunter that gets his deer....PERIOD....regardless of what the deers age, size, tooth wear, head gear, hair color....stuff like this just makes my stomach sick, and makes me wonder if some you were picked on as a child...and have something to prove to other hunters...hunt for yourself, don't be critical of other's harvest...if you are rich and can afford several square miles, you can have your QDM in your world and be happy, if you are like the majority of the hunters here and hunt off a handshake with the farmers and ranchers, do whatever you like to do as long as it is legal.....but you just have to know that if someone on the other side of the fence want to kill any deer he wants, then he gets to kill any deer he wants......stuff like this is just what the anti's want, division amongst the troops....some here really need to sit down, quit thinking they are somehow better than most, and try to be a little less ME ME ME and be compassionate toward others....your life will be whole more peaceful without all this bickering...enjoy the woods now, QDM will make it harder for Joe Average and his kids to continue hunting, due to TROPHY hunters and their GREED and EGO...Kelly


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Ytailhtr said:


> QDM will make it harder for Joe Average and his kids to continue hunting, due to TROPHY hunters and their GREED and ego...Kelly


QDM allows joe average and his kid to see big bucks.

Calling Trophy hunters greedy and egotistical is not exactly a good way to make peace.


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## Ytailhtr (May 22, 2003)

again, you put the words "BIG BUCKS" in there...I see "big bucks" without QDM and without criticizing other hunters deer that they took legally.....sorry, but if there was never a Monter Buck video this conversation would NOT be happening...and everyone could hunt anywhere they want to with a handshake....but due to someone not wanting "their" QDM deer shot so they could satisfy some internal itch to shoot the biggest deer that year, their greed will cause Joe Average hunter and his kids a place to hunt....so we lose them forever...


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Ytailhtr said:


> QDM will make it harder for Joe Average and his kids to continue hunting, due to TROPHY hunters and their GREED and EGO...Kelly


Man, you will seriously need to explain that one to ANYONE who practices QDM??? How in the world will it hurt the average Joe and his kids? Educate your kids and don't fill them with the greedy need to kill everything like some of you have and you'll be fine. In fact, my kids love to be out there and just observe deer. Watching deer is a HUGE part of the learning process. The more deer you observe in the field, the MORE you will learn about all their habits and mannerisms and the most effective methods to hunt them. Now how much will kids be leaning when you teach them to kill the very first thing they see as soon as they can get off a shot? That is most certainly NOT the way to do it. The cycle will continue if you folks don't step up and take some responsiblity to teach them correctly. It's about enjoyment of the outdoors. My kids don't express any intentions of shooting "bambi"??? Without me really doing or saying anything on my part, when they ask about a deer that we are watching I always give them a best guess on age and weight and even score if it's antlered. They know full well that they could take ANY deer they wanted to and I would be just as excited in these early stages yet they have no desire to. This is NOT about competition or ego, you just don't see that crap at such a young age..... it's about respect for the quarry and a love f the outdoors!!! 

You say that QDM will hold some back and I say BS. The chance to fill ALL their Doe tags and the chance to shoot a true whooper buck are excellent benefits. I know there isn't one kid out there that wouldn't have his/her heart pounding out of their chest and a smile to match while walking up to their own monster buck! Teach your kids to respect the outdooors and the animals they pursue..... not to become slaughter houses. Don't pass along the same misinformation and poor attitudes that were passed to you. It is about FUN and enjoyment..... make it that way!!! I have learned that kids are actually very quick to set goals for themselves. The ones that tag yearling bucks are very quick to want to tag something better next time? This has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks either.... they do it for themselves out of desire! These are the hunters that will grow to develop a passion for the sport and whitetails, something I'm afraid many of the folks that have commented here just can't understand! Why hold them down. Hunting is supposed to be about patience, persistence, and discipline? It is a way to get away from the rush and hurried pace of today yet most of you want exactly that while you're in the woods.... hurry, hurry, shoot, kill, go home and brag about getting "your" deer. That is a far cry from what is should be and I think I know of several kids around here that could teach many of you lessons. Pay attention and let the kids set the pace and call the shots..... you just might be surprised!


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> Myk doesn't want to understand...is that obvious by now?


I'm still waiting for all those threads bragging about the age of the deer and people making a bigger deal out of a 5 year old doe than they do a 3 year old 16pt. I've been hearing the age claims as long as I've been a member here, yet I haven't seen one thread bragging about age.
Put your money where your mouth is.



> Hunting is supposed to be about patience, persistence, and discipline?


Why is that a question? Are you that unsure of yourself?
Just like you claim hunting is not about food for you, your goals in hunting do not apply to others.

I don't have a problem with my trophy hunting friend. He doesn't have a problem with me hunting for meat. Why is it that a few on this forum have such a problem with what other people do?


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Myk said:


> Why is it that a few on this forum have such a problem with what other people do?


I usually try and explain the sense and the benefits of QDM without making fun of peoples deer, but then some tard gets on here and calls trophy hunters egotistical and greedy.

QDM makes for a healthy balanced heard, as well as some tremendous trophies. it shouldnt be an option, it should be a responsibility.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> Man, you will seriously need to explain that one to ANYONE who practices QDM??? How in the world will it hurt the average Joe and his kids? *Educate your kids and don't fill them with the greedy need to kill everything like some of you have and you'll be fine.* In fact, my kids love to be out there and just observe deer. Watching deer is a HUGE part of the learning process. The more deer you observe in the field, the MORE you will learn about all their habits and mannerisms and the most effective methods to hunt them. Now how much will kids be leaning when you teach them to kill the very first thing they see as soon as they can get off a shot? That is most certainly NOT the way to do it. The cycle will continue if you folks don't step up and take some responsiblity to teach them correctly. It's about enjoyment of the outdoors. My kids don't express any intentions of shooting "bambi"??? Without me really doing or saying anything on my part, when they ask about a deer that we are watching I always give them a best guess on age and weight and even score if it's antlered. They know full well that they could take ANY deer they wanted to and I would be just as excited in these early stages yet they have no desire to. This is NOT about competition or ego, you just don't see that crap at such a young age..... it's about respect for the quarry and a love f the outdoors!!!
> 
> You say that QDM will hold some back and I say BS. The chance to fill ALL their Doe tags and the chance to shoot a true whooper buck are excellent benefits. I know there isn't one kid out there that wouldn't have his/her heart pounding out of their chest and a smile to match while walking up to their own monster buck! Teach your kids to respect the outdooors and the animals they pursue..... not to become slaughter houses. Don't pass along the same misinformation and poor attitudes that were passed to you. *It is about FUN and enjoyment..... make it that way!!! * I have learned that kids are actually very quick to set goals for themselves. The ones that tag yearling bucks are very quick to want to tag something better next time? This has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks either.... they do it for themselves out of desire! These are the hunters that will grow to develop a passion for the sport and whitetails, something I'm afraid many of the folks that have commented here just can't understand! Why hold them down. Hunting is supposed to be about patience, persistence, and discipline? It is a way to get away from the rush and hurried pace of today yet most of you want exactly that while you're in the woods....


Cornfed, I agree with almost your enitre post. However, the first part I put in bold I think shows a mistake on your part. You seem to be equating shooting a "lesser" buck, whatever that is, to being greedy, and that is a faulty assumption. Some hunters shoot 1.5 yr old or 2.5 yr old because that IS what gives them satisfaction, not because they want to kill everything they see. There is a huge difference in the two. 

The second part I put in bold is a statement I strongly agree with: it really IS about fun and enjoyment. What you and a few others need to understand is that what is fun and enjoyment for you, may not be for everyone. So, let it be about fun and enjoyment and don't knock others who get fun and enjoyment out of shooting a smaller buck than would make you happy. After all, if you really believe it is about fun and enjoyment, you should have no problem with someone shooting any deer that gives them that satisfaction, unless it's only about them doing what gives YOU satisfaction, then it becomes about your fun and enjoyment only, and that is why many of us who practice QDM get a bad rap. 

Personally, I think the biggest obstacle standing in the way of QDM becoming more popular and widely accepted is the fact that in some corners, it is vigorously pushed down the throats of those who are not ready to try it. Some people take longer to convince. Telling someone how much of a slob, how greedy or whatever other belittling term is used for the week, soley because they killed a buck smaller than you would have liked, is certainly not bringing them into the fold, and really only makes their argument that QDM proponents, trophy hunters or whatever, are only elitist a-holes.


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## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

*Stupid Post*

Lots of great responses.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Josh Michaelis said:


> I usually try and explain the sense and the benefits of QDM without making fun of peoples deer, but then some tard gets on here and calls trophy hunters egotistical and greedy.
> 
> QDM makes for a healthy balanced heard, as well as some tremendous trophies. it shouldnt be an option, it should be a responsibility.


Josh, you seem very informed about just what QDM is, so I'm sure that you know it entails much more than just antler restrictions. However, antler restrictions, or passing up some class of "inferior" buck, seems to be the one aspect of QDM that starts hot topics like this. I agree that QDM leads to a more healthy herd, that is obvious, but the problem is that there are many forms of QDM, and currently, the one aspect of QDM that seems to cause the most conflicts here, antler restrictions, is being more fully exlpored, and it's NOT a given that they are necessarily good for the herd. Some studies show just the opposite for some forms of antler restrictions. 

It should be an option because there is no one form that will work everywhere for everyone. And it will only be a responsibility if passed into law because all hunters are responsible to follow the law.


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## deer dude (Feb 10, 2005)

*bad genes*

i wish i could take bigger bucs in my area.but the plain truth is i have bucks but also bad genes.their racks usually grow straight up with a few little kickers sticking out. i got one last year with the mains going straight up about a footand a half with a 11 little kickers. hopefully someday there will be better looking bucks where i hunt.


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## Ytailhtr (May 22, 2003)

Thank you DV1, you say what I am thinking, but I don't come across as calm as you...and I should learn that when I am having a bad day, not to post.....I agree with you 100%.....all three paragraphs of your post....Thanks again...

I pass on deer every year and many times go without taking a buck, my personal choice, but when I do take a deer, I don't need someone trying to make me feel bad for doing it....and I would never tell someone that they shot a 'dink'.....I think if you check out my online photo album, http://community.webshots.com/user/ytailhtr2 you will see that I and my hunting buddies have shot the gamut on deer size....each have a special place in each hunters heart....my closest friend shot a forkie and he and I were both happy....trust me, his one forkie will not affect the 'monster buck' potential for our hunting areas....it is one buck out of hundreds.....the time hunting together and the memory of that evening was special, I hate when other people see that photo and say stuff like "geez, what an idiot for shooting that dink"....that may be why I have a bad taste in my mouth with QDM proponents...but really it an individual thing, some QDM people I like thoroughly, and others I don't......to each his own.....and I would probably share my campfire with nearly everyone on this site...good hunting and good memories to all......I am sorry for my over-reacting in earlier thread....over and out!!!...Kelly


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

DV1 said:


> Josh, you seem very informed about just what QDM is, so I'm sure that you know it entails much more than just antler restrictions. However, antler restrictions, or passing up some class of "inferior" buck, seems to be the one aspect of QDM that starts hot topics like this. I agree that QDM leads to a more healthy herd, that is obvious, but the problem is that there are many forms of QDM, and currently, the one aspect of QDM that seems to cause the most conflicts here, antler restrictions, is being more fully exlpored, and it's NOT a given that they are necessarily good for the herd. Some studies show just the opposite for some forms of antler restrictions.
> 
> It should be an option because there is no one form that will work everywhere for everyone. And it will only be a responsibility if passed into law because all hunters are responsible to follow the law.


I know exactly what QDM is. 

I dont approve of antler restrictions anyway, so I am not sure where that came from.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Josh Michaelis said:


> I know exactly what QDM is.
> 
> I dont approve of antler restrictions anyway, so I am not sure where that came from.



Okay, maybe I should have been more specific. But when you posted this...


> I usually try and explain the sense and the benefits of QDM without making fun of peoples deer, but then some tard gets on here and calls trophy hunters egotistical and greedy.


...I thought you were referring to the argument going on here. It looks to me like the point of contention is antler restrictions, not QDM as a whole. So I thought you were referring to antler restrictions, since that is what most people here disagree with, and why you would feel a need to "explain the sense and benefits of..." it. 

That is where "that" came from.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

DV1 said:


> Okay, maybe I should have been more specific. But when you posted this...
> ...I thought you were referring to the argument going on here. It looks to me like the point of contention is antler restrictions, not QDM as a whole. So I thought you were referring to antler restrictions, since that is what most people here disagree with, and why you would feel a need to "explain the sense and benefits of..." it.
> 
> That is where "that" came from.



Sorry if I came off a little gruff there,

But as far as antler restrictions go i think, as well as others that in the long run It will take away from the quality of the herd by disposing of the geneticly superior 1.5 yr old bucks.

but if everyone switched their buck harvest to bucks 3.5 yrs or older it would benefit the herd and the hunters.

Once again I apologize for not understanding your earlier statement


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Sorry if I came off a little gruff there,
> 
> Once again I apologize for not understanding your earlier statement


I can see where you would feel a little miffed by thinking I was assigning meaning to your post you didn't intend, no offense taken. It's easy sometimes to mistake QDM for antler restrictions only, I sometimes do it and what I wrote could have easily been misinterpreted. Message boards aren't always the best means of communication. In fact, many of the arguments start at boards like this because it's easy to misinterpret what someone posts. In my case, I sometimes type things in context of what I'm thinking, but I don't type the proper context, just the words.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

DV1 said:


> I can see where you would feel a little miffed by thinking I was assigning meaning to your post you didn't intend, no offense taken. It's easy sometimes to mistake QDM for antler restrictions only, I sometimes do it and what I wrote could have easily been misinterpreted. Message boards aren't always the best means of communication. In fact, many of the arguments start at boards like this because it's easy to misinterpret what someone posts. In my case, I sometimes type things in context of what I'm thinking, but I don't type the proper context, just the words.


it is easily done


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> But as far as antler restrictions go i think, as well as others that in the long run It will take away from the quality of the herd by disposing of the geneticly superior 1.5 yr old bucks.


Glad to see you agree with me. How's it feel being right?


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

You get kind of used to it after a while


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Man, I go to work for a little bit and miss a few things.

Let me address a few.



> Great! Don't care about antlers??? Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind shooting does only from now on, right??? Heck, they're much more plentiful then the bucks anyway. Regardless of what you think, you DO have a role in everyone else's happiness and success. And the choices you make as a hunter DO effect other hunters around you. Why not help others out around you by passing on young bucks, since you have already admitted that antlers aren't important to you??? Either own up that antlers DO matter to you or do your civic duty and support your other neighboring hunters buy becoming more of a team player.


I actually have not shot a buck in 3 years of any type. Regardless, I will shoot the biggest bodied deer that presents a shot and is legal. Team player? Where are these teammates when it is time to drag deer out? I did not realize hunting was a competition and that we were on any teams? How do we win? The only thing I know of to be a teammate for is the fight against the anti-hunters, outside of that, there is no competition.

Josh, down here in Georgia 99% of the hunters do not judge a man's hunting success by the size of the antlers they drag out. Most are willing to offer congratulations for any harvest. Southern Hospitality don't ya know.

I have a deer on my wall that will bearely break 118". He was the first buck I ever killed. I had a friend come visit us who was from Illinois. His first comment upon seeing the mount was "back home we would have given you grief over shooting a scrub buck." The buck was aged at 7.5 years old and was very much on the downward side of life. At the time, he ranked 8th in the county in SC where he was killed. You see, all things are not equal. In IL, IA, SASK, MO, TX no one would have thought twice about shooting him. I felt blessed to have the opportunity and was greatly enthusiastic about the shot. A 118" buck in that part of SC is a true monster. I would have held out for the 8 pt that was with him with the smaller rack because he had a bigger body, but he never presented a shot. I have since killed 3 bigger bucks and have not mounted any of them. I do not feel a need to ever mount another deer, as I said, I do not care about antlers. Truth is, if that buck had not been my first deer he would not have been mounted either.

Again, if what I decide to kill is legal, where is the problem?


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## docteur (Aug 14, 2003)

Effective QDM is not antler restrictions alone. If you pay attention to herd management that is done on hunting ranches that rely on herd quality for their livelihood, real QDM is a blend of shooting only mature bucks, fine tuning habitat, and culling animals that display inferior genes. I'm sure that none of these ranch owners would even consider for a minute doing herd management arbitrarily using only pieces of the whole management plan. I don't see any reason why a whole state would ever think that they should either without expecting potential unintended negative consequences. Now, if someone can explain to me how any state is going to ensure that bucks with inferior genes are going to be culled effectively, or how the state is going to super-manage a state's worth of habitat, maybe I could get a bit more enthused about the AR part.

Until then why don't we just quit trying to throw cold water on the way that many (perhaps most) hunters enjoy the sport of hunting. We get enough crap from the antis about the poor little animals that we hunt. I don't think we need our own ranks passing judgement on what we think is a trophy. A hunter who feels happy about the spike or 4-point that he just got is going to get nothing but congratulations, a slap on the back and a handshake from me.

Doc


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

To each his own, I hunt small tracks and hunt for that elusive trophy not necessarily horns but me vs. the smartest guy in the woods and he always wins. But seeing several hundred hunters a year for 17 years and hearing most of the stories of "meat hunters" I can tell you they are a small percentage of the hunters you see at a processing facility. Guys shoot the immature 'small" bucks and tell me they are meat hunters....pay us to gut, skin, and process x # lbs. of meat that they could go to my meat counter and get the best cuts available for the price what gives? Those guys I'm talking about "say" they are meat hunters but they are "buck" hunters that want to tell their buddies....."I got my buck!" They could help keep deer numbers in check by shooting a doe and get the same amount of meat but then they couldn't brag around camp.

Now, that being said, there are truly meat hunters out there that feed their families and don't pay big bucks to get the small animal processed. Those are the true meat hunters and better luck to them. Meanwhile, I'll keep cuttin up those little "deer" so the macho hunter can answer the question.
"Get your buck yet?". Those are the guys who feel like less of a man. Don't fault the true QDM guys. And when I say true, the other side of the coin are the guys that want to breed, grow and harvest only record class animals and couldn't care less about the meat!

You've gotem on both sides and I would say the guys responding hopefully aren't in either group I've mentioned and hunt for the experience, enjoyment and yes of course the delishous veniiiison!


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## TheHairlessone! (Nov 21, 2003)

WOW! This has certainly been an entertaining thread! mg: 

I have a completely different take on this than some I suppose.

I think _ANY deer _ taken with a bow is a trophy. Period. I dont care if it is a doe or a spike or a 200" buck. 

If you are happy with it then so should everyone else. I think waaay too many people get hung up on antler size instead of actually being in the woods and it ruins the fun of it.

I have been holding out for 2 years for a "monster" buck here in Kansas and it hasnt happened. I am going to shoot the next thing that _I_ want to shoot and it doesnt matter what anyone thinks.

Even a 110" or 120" deer is pretty good sized at least to me. I havent shot a doe for several years so it is about time for one of those too.

Double Bull has a saying that I really like. Shooting tomorrow's trophies, _TODAY!_

To quote the very unwise Rodney King, Can't We all just get along?  

rick


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

"""And when I say true, the other side of the coin are the guys that want to breed, grow and harvest only record class animals and couldn't care less about the meat!""""

This is the type of statement that is so helpful to hunters everywhere.......


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

*Solution:* 

Meat hunters shoot the does, trophy hunters shoot the monsters and culls. All can win!


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## Darien Outdoors (Dec 31, 2004)

*Small Bucks*

Hello:

I dont discriminate on any deer. I have taken from BB, up to 12pts since I been hunter with bow, shotgun and muzloader. My first job in the woods is to get some meat in the freezer any way I can. I would much rather take a mature doe (which to me is more a challange with bow then an old buck) then a small buck, but if I have a proper tag I will take what ever god tosses in front of me. I bet you all heard this a million time. "Unless someone out their has a good recipe for antlers then a small buck it is".

Good day, shoot straight ------->>


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## John316 (Aug 23, 2003)

As a rule i dont reply to these type of threads because i really dont care what any hunter shoots as long as its legal but then i figured what the hey i might as well add my 0.2 worth.

First to the "meat hunters" if you shoot all the bucks that come your way in Oct. dont be moaning about where all the bucks are in late season.

To the "trophy hunters"....if everyone would let bucks walk and killing a big buck became more common place....Would you still feel like it was as much of an accomplishment?

If you want ppl to kill does then dont act like they are "lower class" if they do.....It has happened to me...I went to the check station once and a fellow hunter came over and asked what i killed.....and i answered a doe....to which i got a "oh" reply and a look like i had disappointed him or something.I read in a post earlier that someone said if someone posted a pick of their small buck he wouldnt reply that they did a good job.....Would you say good job if he posted a pic of a doe? or would that be overlooked because its "just a doe"

I think part of the problem is that states had buck only seasons for so many years that many hunters gained the mindset that any buck is better then a doe...and we all know how old habits can be hard to break.


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Why do people shoot smaller bucks?

They are harder to hit!  

Sorry, had to lighten this thread up.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

6 pages of people arguing and everyone is just repeating the same points over and over. Its not a damn pissing contest. Just b/c i read this thread doesnt mean im not gonna shoot what i want to shoot.

Nice buck comnes by great ill try to take him. However if i wanna take that borderline 8 point b/c i like him ill will. I weed out many doe each year. Im doing my part without help from hunting partners as they only took 1 deer this year. Agaian if i had to wait for only a nice buck i wouldn't enjoy myself.

Im paying "x" amount to hunt a property,im buying all the tags and gear etc and i know a load of people that do backflips when im able to put some venison in their freezer. Few go to the homeless each year also. Ill do what i want, regardless of what the next guy thinks.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Durocab1 said:


> Why do people shoot smaller bucks?
> 
> They are harder to hit!
> 
> Sorry, had to lighten this thread up.


Anyone can shoot a 250 pound IOWA monster. Try shooting a 60 pound yearling at 30 yards. Now thats skill :wink:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Josh Michaelis said:


> But as far as antler restrictions go i think, as well as others that in the long run It will take away from the quality of the herd by disposing of the geneticly superior 1.5 yr old bucks.


Josh: In MO, ~30% of 1.5 year old bucks north of the MO River sport an 8 point rack. The number is ~20% south of the river. In any given year, 40-50% of the buck population are killed in certain portions of the state. This number will be reduced and probably has been north of the river where QDM is becoming a way of life. Therefore, at the very least, 5 of every 10 of these deer should survive. I would bet more of these deer will make it in the future. I don't buy the jive of antler restrictions altering MO's herd with respect to genetics. There is no sound biological evidence to suggest such. I do wish we had a season like IL, Iowa, or KS. But, I will live with antler restrictions for now. I would bet you will see more counties added to the restriction area this year as well. I'm not sure it is the right thing to do, but if hunters want to protect 1.5 year old deer, then this is a start. Now, some of these deer will certainly get whacked as 2.5 year olds, but shere statistical approximations would suggest more of these deer living to 3.5 year old and even older than what it was with the old system. PS


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Josh: In MO, ~30% of 1.5 year old bucks north of the MO River sport an 8 point rack. The number is ~20% south of the river. In any given year, 40-50% of the buck population are killed in certain portions of the state. This number will be reduced and probably has been north of the river where QDM is becoming a way of life. Therefore, at the very least, 5 of every 10 of these deer should survive. I would bet more of these deer will make it in the future. I don't buy the jive of antler restrictions altering MO's herd with respect to genetics. There is no sound biological evidence to suggest such. I do wish we had a season like IL, Iowa, or KS. But, I will live with antler restrictions for now. I would bet you will see more counties added to the restriction area this year as well. I'm not sure it is the right thing to do, but if hunters want to protect 1.5 year old deer, then this is a start. Now, some of these deer will certainly get whacked as 2.5 year olds, but shere statistical approximations would suggest more of these deer living to 3.5 year old and even older than what it was with the old system.PS


I just wish that our rifle season was in December, I will admit that anler resrictions are better than nothing.

antler restrictions- small bucks are the dumbest animal in the woods, a 2.5 yr old 10 ptr is just as dumb as a 2.5 yr old 6 pointer, and which one can be shot, the geneticly superior one. there are no models for what could happen over time, anter restriction in the midwest is a very new concept, so biological evidence of this theory is not there, because there has never been anything to gather the evidence from.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Josh: I tend to agree with you regarding the way each of the two bucks would act during the rut and that the 10 pointer is genetically superior. Now, here is something for folks to think about as well. A spike was trapped at the Thomas Hill Lake deer study back in the early 90s. The deer was once again trapped at age 3.5. The rack he was sporting grossed nearly 160". Initially, the thought was that spikes would in fact be legal under the antler restrictions in MO because of the gripe of genetic inferiority. Like FG say, "You never know what your gonna get". The deal is this Josh; folks need to be able to recognize a 1.5 year old 8 pointer. In areas of high deer density, folks can learn to watch deer and learn as some on AT have suggested. This isn't the case everywhere unfortunately, especially on public land. Now, I will agree that I like the idea of taking a doe instead. But, from what I am seeing, the MDC is going to have to regulate doe harvests as well. Take it back to the way it used to be. This unlimited stuff is pure nonsense. PS


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## Larry Rooks (Jan 25, 2003)

Whew, this one will go on and on and on and on. I don't shoot lil Bucks but that is ME. I don't slaughter Does, but that is ME. I take just what I need for the year as far as meat goes (Does) and a Trophy or two if I get the chance at them. I hunt two states, Georgia and Ohio. Ohio is said to have a smaller deer herd than GA but GA comes nowhere close to producing the quality of Bucks that Ohio does. What would be a trophy in some parts of GA will not be a good Buck in Ohio. But, it is a fact, if Bucks are taken at young
ages, they never are able to produce in later years. MY opinion is to let the small bucks walk and take Does for meat, and only what you need for the year. Like I said, this is MY OPNINION, not yours or anybody elses. Hunt ethically and legal :thumbs_up


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Durocab1 said:


> *Solution:*
> Meat hunters shoot the does, trophy hunters shoot the monsters and culls. All can win!


Buy me land, buy me a bow and pay for my tags. Only then will you have a right to tell me what to shoot. If you want to dictate that I have to let LEGAL game pass, you have to make it worth something to me.

Unless you're suggesting that the trophy hunters NEVER shoot does. If a trophy hunter needs his land thinned out of does he goes out and finds one of the "one in a thousand" meat hunters to come in and take a doe.
But I'd like to know how you are going to prove who is what type of hunter.

The solution is for these antler nazis to mind their own business.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Josh: I tend to agree with you regarding the way each of the two bucks would act during the rut and that the 10 pointer is genetically superior. Now, here is something for folks to think about as well. A spike was trapped at the Thomas Hill Lake deer study back in the early 90s. The deer was once again trapped at age 3.5. The rack he was sporting grossed nearly 160". Initially, the thought was that spikes would in fact be legal under the antler restrictions in MO because of the gripe of genetic inferiority. Like FG say, "You never know what your gonna get". The deal is this Josh; folks need to be able to recognize a 1.5 year old 8 pointer. In areas of high deer density, folks can learn to watch deer and learn as some on AT have suggested. This isn't the case everywhere unfortunately, especially on public land. Now, I will agree that I like the idea of taking a doe instead. But, from what I am seeing, the MDC is going to have to regulate doe harvests as well. Take it back to the way it used to be. This unlimited stuff is pure nonsense. PS


true, but the doe harvest is till pretty minimal here, as far as the bucks if you could get people to age the deer the antler restriction would not be that big of a deal. I am happy that the MDC is doind something, but it would have been a lot easier to switch the season to December Like our neighbor to the north.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

I agree 100%. I've talked to some fellows in the know at great lengths about this very issue. As much as they agree, tradition runs high in MO. The rifle season will stay where it is for a long time I feel.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> I agree 100%. I've talked to some fellows in the know at great lengths about this very issue. As much as they agree, tradition runs high in MO. The rifle season will stay where it is for a long time I feel.



I am afraid your right


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Myk said:


> The solution is for these antler nazis to mind their own business.


Myk - Obviously you believe firmly in your rights as an American citizen and don't like anyone telling you how to behave or how to hunt. Fine. That's your right as a citizen of this fine country.

However, don't you see that the enroachment you feel by us "Trophy Hunters" asking you to pass up small bucks and shoot does for meat if that is what you're after is the *SAME* feeling of encroachment that *WE* feel by "Meat Hunters" telling us to piss off and that you'll shoot what ever you damn well please.

I'm not going to ask you to change your position. I'm meerly asking you to recgonize that your close mindedness is not adding any value.

Oh yea, don't you call me or anyone else here on this board a Nazi unless you know *EXACTLY* who you're friggin' talking to. Period.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Myk said:


> If a trophy hunter needs his land thinned out of does he goes out and finds one of the "one in a thousand" meat hunters to come in and take a doe.
> 
> *But I'd like to know how you are going to prove who is what type of hunter.*
> 
> The solution is for these antler nazis to mind their own business.


That one is EASY! Go to one of the local Marts just before the season starts and find the guys in there dressed in their camo that are buying 3 arrows, some $10 b-heads and a deer tag..... BINGO, you've just found your "meat hunters" in most cases!


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*holy cow...*

is it me or is MYK just a very bitter man? i like the fact that everyone else is stating their point and others are agreeing or disagreeing in a mature fashion. MYK has a problem with anyone that feels different than he does and his points are always redundant. "I help the farmers", "I help the farmers", etc.... i am very glad that you help the farmers. you also say that you would rather shoot corn eating deer than try to raise them. that is good, but you make it sound like does don't eat corn. in our state you only get so many tags(unless you want to buy unlimited for $7 each). i know that if i was a farmer, i would much rather you shoot a doe that could be bearing a pair of corn eaters and that buck is bearing nothing more than a little set of horns. so i feel that you just like controversy when someone asks a question. 
for the rest of you i enjoy reading your well thought out opinions that each have a point. i hunt with both types of people and i can tell you that the "meat hunters" have no problem waiting on a doe, because does are a dime a dozen and they respect our wishes of QDM. :smile:


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Mike Trump, If you see me buying the last box of chocolate ice cream, do you rationalize that into me encroaching on your rights to eat chocolate ice cream?

I paid for my tags, you did not.
You do not own the land I hunt on, therefore you do not make the rules.
You do not have to make a living off the corn that is grown on the land I hunt on, therefore you have absolutely NO right in telling anyone what to do.
You have NOTHING to do with my hunting other than you want what is mine.

If you don't like being a Nazi, stop acting like one. What's mine is not yours. Take your socialist ideas somewhere else.
It's quite obvious that you must think of yourself as an antler nazi since I did not make that reply to you, but you decided to take the offense. 
Do don't blame me for what is going on in your mind. Just like what's mine is not yours, what goes on in your mind is not mine.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*nice...*

Very good point as usual cornfed


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

Very good point???
He just attacked and lied about a very large portion of the hunting population.

But of course since you're one of his prison b****es on the forum you have to stick by him don't you?

Why is it always the trophy hunters who are attacking fellow hunters for hunting? 
And you guys wonder why I say that trophy hunting is gong to kill all hunting?


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Mike Trump said:


> Myk - Obviously you believe firmly in your rights as an American citizen and don't like anyone telling you how to behave or how to hunt. Fine. That's your right as a citizen of this fine country.
> 
> However, don't you see that the enroachment you feel by us "Trophy Hunters" asking you to pass up small bucks and shoot does for meat if that is what you're after is the *SAME* feeling of encroachment that *WE* feel by "Meat Hunters" telling us to piss off and that you'll shoot what ever you damn well please.
> 
> I'm not going to ask you to change your position. I'm meerly asking you to recgonize that your close mindedness is not adding any value.



Mike, that was very well put.

I consider myself on both sides of the fence here. Im not about to force anyone to abide by my strict standards, hunting is about having fun. We all have our different reasons for hunting, and we each have a different definition of FUN. 

However, as Mike put it, your encroaching on our ability to have fun, by shooting ANY and ALL bucks that you see, your severely limiting the amount of bucks that will grow up to another hunters standards. Now Im not saying anyone in particular, and maybe you dont shoot all the little bucks you see. 
But there are those out there who do! For this reason, trophy hunters would like to see a limit set. Is this so unreasonable?

I think what most "trophy hunters" want from the "meat hunters" is some restraint. I dont mind you taking one small, young buck a year, but is it necessary to harvest more? Is it even really necessary for one a year?

I consider myself a "Meaphy hunter" (that would be a trophy and meat hunter combined)

I need meat to ease the burden of grocery bills, but I dont harvest young bucks to do so. I have never had a problem finding and harvesting at the very least two large does in one season. My family consists of six people, so we obviously dont live off of only venison, I dont think many families could. So to say you need to shoot any small buck to feed your family is untrue, a facade. More than likely you could harvest several tasty young does, that would help ease the burden of feeding your family just as well. If you still need more meat than go ahead and shoot a small buck. Im not about to deny a hungry family food. 

But if you find it fun to shoot several bucks, no matter what the size, just come out and say it. Dont dance around the truth, claiming to need food for your freezer. Say I HAVE FUN KILLING SEVERAL BUCKS no matter how big or how small! We admit that the large antlers, and challenge of out-smarting the older more wise bucks is why we practice QDM. So why not be honest with us? 

I will never understand the fun in shooting several small bucks, for it presents any seasoned hunter very little challenge to take a young deer, especially young bucks, which are arguably the dumbest of deer.

But if thats what floats your boat, go ahead. Just try to bear in mind that your ruining the chances for hunters who wish to chase trophy deer.

I think there can be a happy medium between the two sides, I just dont know what it is yet. Perhaps both sides need to give a little and we can meet in the middle.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*haha....*

very good point MYK if there was one. hey cornfed... you're my daddy. 
i am not badmouthing any hunters. i don't consider you myk. i think cornfed means that if you come into Wal-Mart and buy some stuff the night before season you are in his meat hunter category. he didn't mean anything bad about those hunters but if you took a poll of them, you would probably find that <90% of them are meat hunters. it don't take being cornfed's b****h to figure that out it just means that he makes more sense than you. let's pretend that you are normal, i would agree with you without being your b****h. you see?


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Myk said:


> If you don't like being a Nazi, stop acting like one. What's mine is not yours. Take your socialist ideas somewhere else.
> It's quite obvious that you must think of yourself as an antler nazi since I did not make that reply to you, but you decided to take the offense.
> Do don't blame me for what is going on in your mind. Just like what's mine is not yours, what goes on in your mind is not mine.


No, *****hole. I simply took offense to your "Nazi" comment because it was clearly in poor taste and wholly unfounded, much like the other 100% of your drivel you have spewn on this thread. You make arguments like my 7 year old kid makes arguments. Your callous and highly opinionated remarks on this thread have already done more than enough to prove the anti's point. Your aproach to this topic sickens me and I feel ashamed to even be in the same brotherhood with you.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Myk said:


> You have NOTHING to do with my hunting other than you want what is mine.


  

Myk: I don't really think anyone on here wants what is yours. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. PS


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

I WISH Cornfed was my Daddy....

Have you seen the monsters that guy shoots!?!?!?!  :thumbs_up 


If cornfed doesnt understand how to manage for big bucks than I dont know how to change my underwear!.......Oh wait, that might be a bad analogy.....  :wink:


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Matty-NJ said:


> I need meat to ease the burden of grocery bills, but I dont harvest young bucks to do so. I have never had a problem finding and harvesting at the very least two large does in one season. My family consists of six people, so we obviously dont live off of only venison, I dont think many families could. So to say you need to shoot any small buck to feed your family is untrue, a facade. More than likely you could harvest several tasty young does, that would help ease the burden of feeding your family just as well. If you still need more meat than go ahead and shoot a small buck. Im not about to deny a hungry family food.


 While this gameplan might be sound in some areas, for some hunters just getting an oppurtunity to get off a single shot at anything in a given season is an accomplishment. Taking a doe or 2 is not a given when bowhunting most public woodlots. That one shot oppurtunity at a lesser buck could be the first and last shot you might get that year. Many can not afford to pass.

I have passed on the 2 1/2 s and lesser for the last 3 years and hence haven't taken a shot at a buck in New York. The does also did not not come around when I was "ready" to shoot one. Therefore I have shot just 1 deer (doe) in the last 3 years of bowhunting New York. 

How many times has it already been said on this forum, that "one guys needs differ from anothers". What's soo hard to understand here.  

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

*Cornfed*



> That one is EASY! Go to one of the local Marts just before the season starts and find the guys in there dressed in their camo that are buying 3 arrows, some $10 b-heads and a deer tag..... BINGO, you've just found your "meat hunters" in most cases!



Are "Trophy Hunters" the guys that buy name brand equipment, pay huge amounts to hunt private land and brag about a "Trophy" buck some guy has hand raised from a fawn?


GTR


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Skyhunter, your right on the fact that we all have to understand each other and stick together. I mentioned that part at the end...

However, I think we should work towards a plan that satisfies both sides.

I didnt really consider the fact that some areas dont have deer densities that NJ has, BUT I did consider the state lands. I only hunt state lands, I use to have permission for private properties, but with the land being swallowed up around here, everyone wants $$money$$ for use of their land now. I cant afford to pay for land, so Ive spent the better part of my time on public hunting areas. Havent had a problem harvesting my does for the freezer, but I understand that not every where has the abundance of deer that NJ has.

While arguing wont get us anywhere, these type discussions need to take place. 

We need to work towards a middle ground that will allow hunters from both sides to enjoy their time hunting, and get their "moneys worth".

Being told to p-ss off by meat hunters, is just as bad as trophy hunters pushing their antler restrictions on needy hunters. 

There has to be exceptions.

Perhaps hunters who really are in need of food for their families could get a license that is cheaper and allows them to take at least one deer regardless of size. Of course they would have to prove their hardship.

I myself, push for hunters to donate their time, money and un-needed venison to programs like (HHH) Hunters helping the hungry, (FHFH) Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry, and (STH) Share the harvest. These programs help to feed the needy families in your community. What better cause could there be? Maybe the hunters in need of food could be added to the families helped when purchasing the special license.

Of course, any hunters not pleading and proving hardship would have to purchase the regular license, and abide by the antler restrictions set in place.

Those are just ideas of course, but if there are hunters out there who really cant feed their families, I think we should start a program to help provide them with venison.

We need to stop arguing and play a game of give and take. What will you allow us to do to grow bigger bucks? And what can we do that will still allow you to harvest meat?
THAT would be productive!

Have a good one---Matt


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Myk said:


> Mike Trump, If you see me buying the last box of chocolate ice cream, do you rationalize that into me encroaching on your rights to eat chocolate ice cream?
> 
> I paid for my tags, you did not.
> You do not own the land I hunt on, therefore you do not make the rules.
> ...


One other thing. Sure, *You* paid for your tags and *You* paid for your land and *You* paid for your equipment.

*BUT...*

You don't own the deer. We *ALL* do. They are a natural resource which is owned by all of the American people, and more specifically those citizens who reside and pay taxes in each state. So, yes, in a sense we *CAN* tell you what to do with the deer you hunt by passing game laws and regulations to govern over your activities.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Come on now, sing it with me;

I'll start walking your way, and you start walking mine!

We'll meet in the middle, 'neath that ole georgia pine!

We gained a lot of ground, cause we both gave a little.

Aint no road too long when you meeeeeeeet in the middle!


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> That one is EASY! Go to one of the local Marts just before the season starts and find the guys in there dressed in their camo that are buying 3 arrows, some $10 b-heads and a deer tag..... BINGO, you've just found your "meat hunters" in most cases!


I'm guessing you mean this in a bad way. If that is the case, you just stooped to the level of a few here you constantly bash for the way they make their points.  Not a good way to get your point across cornfed, especially because it's a faulty generalization. Let your pictures do the talking, not character asassinations. :zip:


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*I think we can all agree that whether you......*

.......feel Cornfed put it the right way (personally, I think he was right on the money), "bowhunters" that are rushing around just days before the season at dime-stores buying cheap arrows, cheap broadheads and other vital, critical gear in time for Opening Day.......99% of the time AIN'T the guys that will be putting an arrow thru a P&Y buck! 

Everyone can decide for themselves if that sounds too harsh.....and maybe it is.....but it would be silly to argue that it's not TRUE!  

DV1, yes I agree with you that it is a bash.......however, I do not agree that it is a "faulty" generalization.....a generalization, yes.....but an accurate generalization 99% of the time!


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

TexasGuy said:


> DV1, yes I agree with you that it is a bash.......however, I do not agree that it is a "faulty" generalization.....a generalization, yes.....but an accurate generalization 99% of the time!


So you feel that only 1 in a 100 people who are not trophy hunters are the type that run around at the last minute and really put no effort into their hunting, shooting or gear selection? Sorry, but that IS a faulty generalization. Let's look at the flip side: I know many "trophy hunters" that put zero time into scouting, stand selection, glassing feilds, running trail camera's etc., yet I know lots of regular hunters, "meat hunters" if you will, that put in tons of effort. The trophy hunters who put in no woods effort...they would be the ones who book 2 or 3 hunts a year and let the guides do all the work. Now, would it be fair of me to say all trophy hunters are lazy and just want to pay someone to do all their socuting, observing and stand prep? No, it wouldn't, but is the exact same statement you are making about the other side of the coin. :embarasse 

Not trying to be confrontational, but both sides are making the same mistakes here, and that is what keeps this an argument instead of a healthy debate.


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## benchleg90 (Feb 19, 2005)

*Walmart*

It doesent bother me one bit to see thoes idiots at the Mart picking up total garbage, it keeps them out of the pro shop. Most of the time they are riffle hunters that dont draw tags and become bowhunters over night. Pick your weapon! It does realy bother me to see people like that on the hill. They can total blow your whole summer of scouting in no time. :angry:


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I was asked a simple question on wether or not I could tell the difference in hunters. My statement, as we all all KNOW, is dead accurate! I'll offer NO apology for stating the obvious. Those folks sure as heck aren't the trophy hunters! 

You see, with the trophy hunters, they have already spent an entire year planning and preparing their game plans and hunt sites! They have spent hundreds of hourse preparing for that ONE 5-second window of opportunity that they MAY get this season. They have scoured maps and photos, checked trail cams, spent hours glassing feeding areas, setting up stands, shooting thousands of practice arrows, the list goes on and on. It not about being rich and spending time at some world renowned camp where everything has been done for me, I'll never be in taht situation! It's about hard work and dedication. It's about a level of commitment, a labor of love. It's about an obsession for an animal that you have such a great amount of respect for that a great sadness comes with the joy and buzz of the score..... IF you get that lucky! A level of dedication that is seriously lacking with the meat hunter mentality I can assure you. Many of them lack the respect for the game that they should have and maybe that's why it is so hard for them to grasp the concept of any QDM. 

I hear all this dividing and stone throwing and it does upset me. Basically the only thing that the "trophy hunters" are saying is.... shoot more Does and let the yearling bucks pass. They say.... you can't eat the horns.... I AGREE!! Then why kill them and cut 'em off only to throw them in the trash or in a closet.... they don't get any bigger once their dead. That's disrespecting the animals as far as I'm concerned. Shoot the Does so the herd won't grow! Some say, "we are helping the farmers".... then shoot a Doe so she won't have 2 or 3 more fawns the next season. You're not helping out anybody by shooting that yearling buck that surely isn't going to breed that first season anyway??? 

I just shake my head when I hear some of your refer to the term "trophy hunter" as if it were a bad word! In fact, it is the "trophy hunter" that does more for the game he hunts than most will ever realize! These hunters respect and honor their quarry far more than most could comprehend. They invest more money and time than any of these so called meat hunters. They are great stewards of the land and go to great lengths to maintain it. From food plots to tree plantings it is the "trophy hunter" that is out there getting it done. DON'T TALK ABOUT IT........ BE ABOUT IT! It is the "trophy hunter" that goes the extra mile for the challenge and isn't searching for shortcuts and a way to kill just any deer. 

I'm starting to understand that maybe the man doesn't choose this road but perhaps this road chooses the man. I see potential in some of you that sit on the fence and are willing to listen to the voice of reason but some simply argue just for the sake of trying to tick people off. I try to read and understand everyone's post on subjects as touchy as this, I really do. I hope to learn lessons along the way that will help me continue to convince folks to do the right thing and not to be part of the problem. I have made a difference in my own area and that is how I will have to continue to do it.... one buck and one hunter at a time. :smile:


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Matty-NJ said:


> We need to stop arguing and play a game of give and take. What will you allow us to do to grow bigger bucks? And what can we do that will still allow you to harvest meat?


 Glad to see your debate considers the best interest of *both sides* . This forum needs more of those who can see beyond their own needs. . . :wink: 

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Benchleg90....you nailed it exactly, bud!*

DV1,

Your point is well-taken....

Unfortunately, alot of people think if people are "trophy-hunters", they are just a bunch of rich *******s that book $10,000 guided hunts in the best habitat on the continent, have the guide do ALL the work and simply have to make the shot.......sure, those guys make-up about 1 out of 1,000 bowhunters who hold-out for record-class animals(maybe not P&Y or B&C, but at least big, mature animals).....

The other 999 of us put in the personal time, scouting, best equipment we can afford, practice with it year-round, many times hunt PUBLIC LAND, pass-up bucks that most shoot immediately, and generally take the sport of hunting to a higher level.....

I'm no Chuck Adams, Myles Keller, the Drury brothers or anybody else that essentially makes their living bowhunting. I bust my hump 8 hours a day just like anybody else......I just prefer to get MORE PERSONAL SATISFACTION out of my bowhunting by concentrating on the wariest, wisest, toughest animals in the woods.....running an arrow thru a foolish button-buck that hasn't lived long enough to know his ass from a hole in the ground is fine for a first-time bowhunter, youth hunter or other folks just getting there feet wet in bowhunting.....I support that 100%......

But after 10, 15, or 20 years of bowhunting and guys keeps shooting spikes and forky's year after year after year after year after year.....ESPECIALLY WHEN HE HUNTS THE FARM / RANCH NEXT TO ME AND KEEPS WHACKIN' LITTLE BUCKS AND SCREWIN' ME OUT OF A DECENT POPULATION OF MATURE ANIMALS......yeah, I get pissed and so would you! :angry:

PS.....I just read Cornfed's detailed post a couple posts back from this one....he stated all of my feelings in a much calmer manner....emotions like I've just displayed don't solve anything, I'll be the first to admit that....but it sure gets tough to contain them sometimes......


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Cornfed buddy, you shouldnt have just limited it to the "marts". Anyone out purchasing VITAL equipment, days before the season, is an unethical hunter. 

No matter where they purchase it! HOW on earth do you have the time to practice with it, and know it well enough to launch arrows at animals if you only opened the package and screwed it on when you got to your hunting area? Thats as bad as the guys taking 100 yard shots!

You cant just throw it all together at the last minute! Unless youve been using that equipment for months, and went to pick up extra, your not giving the animals the respect they deserve! 

People could do this at a pro-shop, a Mart, or a chain hunting store though. It really doesnt matter which one. If they are doing that, they dont deserve to shoot at an animal.

To just say the "marts" though, kinda hits me hard. I buy some stuff from the "marts" myself, and Im a dedicated bowhunter. They sell stuff cheaper than my pro-shop, and as Ive said before, I cant afford the best of the best.

They still sell Thunderheads, and decent camo clothing, as well as scents, and cover scents. I also use some of their cheapy treestands. 

So guys, please dont misconstrue what Cornfed said. I dont think hes saying just because you bought it at X-Mart means your a bad hunter. Hes saying if you find yourself in any store at the last minute, buying; new type of arrows, broadheads, etc....your really not a good hunter.

AND I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY.....you shouldnt be buying ANYTHING thats as important as that stuff, at the last minute! (*unless your purchasing extra)


Lets respect the animals we hunt, whether they have enormous head gear or dinky spikes. PRACTICE and KNOW your equipment MONTHS before the season!


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Im sorry razorstick, could you make that more clear and concise? Im not quite sure I got the jist of your argument?!?!?!!

I dont think we need people getting overly emotional, and name calling.

It gets you NO WHERE!

Maybe we should delete this thread and start over, one that starts with;

How can meat hunters and trophy hunters work together to acheive a combined goal? Any suggestions that would allow both sides to be happy?


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## benchleg90 (Feb 19, 2005)

Texasguy-Cornfed, what do you guys consider as a shooter. Do you look for age or P&Y? I also think someone thats been hunting for several years could raise their standards a little. Your skill as a hunter should be going up every year, why not your standards? I am not preaching Tropy Hunting but I can see the point.

I am also guilty of buying some camo and other things a X-mart. You cant beat the prices.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*easy...*

razorstick take a chill pill. you are getting WAY too worked up over all of this. we like trophies, you like meat. leave it that way. :thumbs_do


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> You see, with the trophy hunters, they have already spent an entire year planning and preparing their game plans and hunt sites! They have spent hundreds of hourse preparing for that ONE 5-second window of opportunity that they MAY get this season. They have scoured maps and photos, checked trail cams, spent hours glassing feeding areas, setting up stands, shooting thousands of practice arrows, the list goes on and on. It not about being rich and spending time at some world renowned camp where everything has been done for me, I'll never be in taht situation! It's about hard work and dedication. It's about a level of commitment, a labor of love. It's about an obsession for an animal that you have such a great amount of respect for that a great sadness comes with the joy and buzz of the score..... IF you get that lucky!
> :smile:


cornfed, I hear ya, and I understand what you are saying, and it makes my point from earlier. You get pretty pissed if I say all trophy hunters are the rich type that do no work, just pay money to have a big buck ready for them to shoot, because that doesn't fit you. Just like others get pissed when the statement is made that all regular hunters, non-trophy hunters, or meat hunters, whatever you want to call them, run around at the last minute buying gear without any thought or effort. And when statements are made that constantly belittle regular hunters as being greedy, not being dedicated, or not caring about or respecting animals. It's just as false on that side too. 

I don't know if you understand yet or not, but people hunt for many different reasons. Many people don't give a hoot about waiting for a big buck like me or you, but they get plenty of satisfaction out of hunting, and taking any buck. There is NOTHING wrong with that, it's their choice, they are entitled to it, and they should not be degraded for it. My point is that statements made by you and Myk recently that attack different hunters for their preferrences only fuel an argument, not a discussion. You don't have to offer an apology, but neither does Myk, their your opinions and your entitled to them. You guys are more alike than you think. :wink:


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Benchleg90....that's a great question, my friend....*

.....biggest factor is probably this one:

1) Where does a guy live? A bowhunter who lives in Iowa, Illinois, Kansas and
other top trophy-producing states would naturally have a higher 
standard than Alabama, Mississippi or other states with fewer trophy-size
animals.....

Personally, I hold-out for a 120-class or bigger buck here in north Texas where I hunt with my fiancee' on our 250-acre lease. She is 50 years old and just picked-up a bow for the first time only 2 years ago. She shot a nice doe and a 4-point her first season. Last fall, she shot a nice 110" 8-point. She PASSED-UP about 5 bucks from spikes to a 90" 8-point, with forkys and 6-points in between......

I saw a 130-class 8-point (19-20" inside spread, good mass) and another buck that was even bigger only twice all season....never had a good shot within range. I passed-up 4 bucks....a 100" 7-point, a 110-115" 8-point and two small 6-points......ended my season with just two does.....we've had some great eating, that's for sure!

If a 120-class buck appears to be only 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 years old, I'll typically pass on him....but judging deer-age by body size/shape is a difficult thing to do accurately with consistency all the time.....rack-size is usually the better indicator to go by, in my opinion.....

You see, my friend.....if a little 50 year-old, 117 lb, 5'3" lady can stick to her standards after only bowhunting for just 2 seasons.....so can anybody!  :smile: 

Good hunting to everyone!


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## steadyeddie (Apr 27, 2004)

*Agree*



willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


I agree, and hunt to hunt, and I am a meat hunter first and then if I happen to see a nice buck then I will shoot it. Have a great day.steady


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

Some people have such a dire need to prove their worth.

"My bucks are bigger."
"Yours are scrubs."
"You shoot dinks."
"I shoot trophies."
"I work harder."
"I respect the animal more."
"I enjoy my hunts more."
"I practice more."
"I'm better."
"I'm better."
"I'm better."

and on and on and on and on and on.....................etc.....etc...etc...

I'm a hunter. I like to kill deer, and I'll go about it how I and the laws see fit.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Shooting biguns in the Illinois area of the country doesn't require all the "work" that some here use to support their argument. 

Here is a pic of a buck shot in 2004 by a kid. It is the son of my buddys neighbor. While I was very impressed with the size of the buck, the reply I got from the locals was that it was not uncommon, and kids shoot bucks like these every year.

Not all "trophy hunters" have to work their butt off to shoot wallhangers. Many are not "all that", and those who "bow down to them" are ignorrant when it comes to the the difficulty involved in taking these brutes in many mid-western states. Take a look!

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Well I can see that no one wants to actually listen to either side anymore....which is a shame. Could have made progress....

So Im backing out of this one!

Cornfed, keep shooting the hoss bucks, your obviously doing something right!

And if the others dont want to listen or budge an inch, than so be it.


Just push for your state to incorporate some sort of *FAIR QDM program.

*keep in mind when trying to push for QDM that not all hunters have gotten a buck, and some do need meat for their families, so incorporate them into the plan. And realize that ANY kind of plan and restriction is better than nothing. You have to start somewhere.

Your an active part of the bowhunting community, whereas most people just complain. Keep up the work, and dont get discouraged. Best of luck to you, and just keep spreading the word....if you let them go.....they will grow.....and DEAD deer dont grow. May not get everyone on the bandwagon, but like you said....ONE BUCK and ONE HUNTER at a time.....eventually they will realize that big bucks can and will grow ANYWHERE, if given the opportunity.

Take care all, and try to keep it civil....---Matt


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*SkyHunter, that's a dandy buck for sure.....*

......but the little boy in the picture sure didn't kill that hoss WITH A BOW....

As you know, that's an entirely different story than a scoped rifle......

I grew-up in Iowa, and while it's true that there are alot of big boys roaming those cornfields, killin 'em on a REGULAR basis with a BOW is still a heck of an accomplishment....

You are right, though.....anyone can get lucky once with bow or gun.....but to do it year after year with a bow is much more than luck.....that's what separates the true experts from the rest of us......

I'm still tryin' to get there myself!   

Good hunting to you!


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

TexasGuy said:


> ......but the little boy in the picture sure didn't kill that hoss WITH A BOW....


 Your right; it was a rifle kill


TexasGuy said:


> You are right, though.....anyone can get lucky once with bow or gun.....


 I did not imply that it was an example of "lucking out"; but was commonplace for this area of the country. It did not seem to be a "big deal" to many folks that saw the deer. My buddy said "we got alot of those here many that are bigger than him". According to the locals big deer were *commonplace* and not that hard to come by.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Skyhunter, I see a doe in that photo... that is QDM and some good meat to boot. Plus, those big bucks seem to fill up more freezer space.

I could hunt with any of the guys on this post. I don't care what the other guy shoots on his lease and when I invite someone to hunt I tell them what deer they can expect to see (game cam photos) and which one I am after. Newbies are welcome to shoot anything they see. Veteran's must follow my rules and I'll do the same if I hunt with them. No problem, no hard feelings.

Let's go huntin!


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

The problem with the question that started this thread is some want to define the enjoyment that others get from the deer they kill. If a hunter gets a thrill out of killing a smaller buck than another guy, who is to say if his hunt was more or less enjoyable? To presume that your hunts are better because you kill bigger bucks is BS. I also find it pittifully amusing to read about how much more some of the elitists claim to respect deer and then ridicule the animals that some kill. That's a bunch of hypocritical horse crap.

Some people are very limited in the amount of time they can spend in the woods each year. A friend of mine only bow hunts mid to late January for a weekend or two. A fellow could, and probobly would, hunt his entire life and never even see a deer that some of you think is worthy. Some guys plan their vacations around the rut. They try their best to determine when is the best time to be in the woods. They hunt for one week if they're lucky. Some people hunt very small plots and have almost no control of the herd.

A big factor in this is that bucks of any size have an appeal that does don't. A doe is a doe is a doe. They're all basically the same. Bucks are almost all unique. In most states there are many many more does than bucks. The odds of seeing any buck are smaller. A set of horns, on a $350 mount or on a $50 plaque or nailed up on the wall of a barn, serves as a concrete reminder of the hunt and the thrill. I can point to a set of horns at my father-in-law's place and ask about them, and he'll tell the story and who was involved 30 years ago. There is something magical about a set of horns that you can't get from killing a doe.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I haven't said anything about "your buck has to score a certain number or it isn't trophy"??? That isn't anybodies point at all.  The point is to let the yearlings and, if you have the skills, hopefully some of the 2 1/2 year old bucks go. Raise the bar and set some goals and get in the game. Some of you keep bringing up ridiculous points that continue to stray from the topic. You are trying to keep this a pissin' match! IL's is just overstocked on bucks and anybody that doesn't shoot world class deer in that state must have a problem.... yada, yada.... whatever! I really get tired of hearing that grass is always greener stuff! The fact is that more mature bucks can be grown ANYWHERE! If more of you guys were involved in serious QDM maybe your state would take measures to up the bar themselves and try to mange for tighter ratios and more mature deer in the herd?? The fact is we do indeed produce some awesome bucks.... BUT just imagine IF 75% of our antlered harvest weren't immature deer!!!  It makes no sense for many of you to continue to ramble on when no one is saying anything about that. I have said before, it doesn't matter..... it's about getting some AGE on the bucks in YOUR herd! It doesn't matter if it is a 100" buck in Alabama or a 160" in IL, the fact is that these deer are getting whacked as basket racked yearlings way to often. I still say that many shoot yearling bucks NOT to meat hunt but just for braging rights to tell their buddy that they "got their buck"..... like there should be a buck out there with their name on it every season? Fear of NOT getting "their buck" is the reason that a lot of hunters lack the ability to hold out and let an immature animal pass. Now for newbies and others that lack the skills, experience and/or time, there is NO problem.... by all means you NEED to shoot some deer to learn how it's done. I also realize that THE most naive and easiest deer in the ENTIRE herd to kill is in fact a yearling buck so odds are that is what someone who is just lookin' for a kill is going to run into first. He is a lot easier to kill than a maternal Doe, that's for sure. It is funny that there could be 30 Does on a property yet it's the little goofy yearling basket rack that will step right out during legal shooting light and get himself killed!  For this reason I'm not putting down newbie hunters at all. I'm just saying that I would expect more from all the so called "experienced deer hunters" on these forums. The attitudes really need to change if any of you expect the deer herd to! judging by all the posts I see on all the forums, a LOT of want to see some serious change to your states herds????


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

twogun said:


> In most states there are many many more does than bucks.


THAT is the PROBLEM right there! This is exactly why I ask/challenge YOU hunters to step up and do your part! It is your fault that the herds are as badly skewed as they are..... YOU have a chance to do something about by shooting some Does and letting some of the lil' buck pass!!!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

RAZORSTICK said:


> Why would you want to put even more restrictions on hunting?


It's NOT about changing laws it's about changing attitudes! I don't want to force hunters to do anything, I simply want them educated to the practice of common sense QDM. :thumbs_up


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Cornfed,

Why hunt that old "Trophy" deer when he is in rut? Seems to me they are as dumb as the button bucks during that time of the year. By your statements you should only hunt deer when they are the hardest to kill. Or is it when they have the biggest set of antlers?


GTR


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## dingo (Feb 9, 2005)

Solutions to these differences will not be settled here. To publically debate to the point of insult such diametrically opposing viewpoints with the multitude of variables involved will surely be a study in futility. The biggest problem IMO is public vs. private land. If your interest in one's property/hunting decisions is based solely on your best interests, then most (if not all) landowners will not be receptive as you have no investment in said property. Most of the time, your ideas will be stomped on like a brush fire. Granted, they will get bigger bucks over time-but like it or not, that is not important to everyone. You can not force your desires to be someone else's reality. True, its got to be very frustrating to spend money and sweat to QDM a parcel, then have the neighbors undermine the substantial effort within a few weekends. Ironically, the saying "High fences make for good neighbors" is almost more applicable in the forests than in the city. I would imagine the situation on public land is even more convoluted-there may very well be no solution there short of legislation. Both sides have valid points, however the fact is most hunters are average joes-not trophy hunters. That being said-we are all on the same side. We have real enemies that require our attention. Hunting is a silent and private matter. Maybe the "Trophy Hunters" should ponder why they care so much, and the "Meat Hunters" why they don't. It might make us all better hunters.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

GTR said:


> Cornfed,
> 
> Why hunt that old "Trophy" deer when he is in rut? Seems to me they are as dumb as the button bucks during that time of the year. By your statements you should only hunt deer when they are the hardest to kill. Or is it when they have the biggest set of antlers?
> 
> ...


I hunt 'em from Oct 1 through Jan 15. Have tagged deer through all parts of the season..... where did I say anything differently or is this one of those off topic pissin' matches I was talking about???  Don't distract from the topic, contribute PLEASE?


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

dingoo said:


> Maybe the "Trophy Hunters" should ponder why they care so much, and the "Meat Hunters" why they don't. It might make us all better hunters.


That is VERY nicely put and I agree. Thanks for a very sensible reply.  :thumbs_up


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## benchleg90 (Feb 19, 2005)

At what point does "or should" your DFW step in and set some restrictions? We have many units that are controled by forked horn+ or even 3pts or better. I know Whitetails are different than elk and muledeer, but some regulations would probley keep dink bucks alive a little longer. Look what Nevada and Utah have done.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> IL's is just overstocked on bucks and anybody that doesn't shoot world class deer in that state must have a problem.... yada, yada.... whatever! I really get tired of hearing that grass is always greener stuff!


 So your take on the reason there is an abundance of bruiser bucks roaming the mid western states is, that most hunters in those states have practiced "restraint" for many years and thus built up the herd. Record books seem to indicate that world class animals have been indiginous to these geographic regions for several decades. When did this QDM practice of letting the little guys go start? The 60s perhaps?

I have a buddy in one of your neihboring states that is actively involved in hunting and guideing for whitetails and turkey. While he has taken a 190 class in the past, he and his buddies normally shoot the first buck they get a shot at. I have witnessed in this "land of giants" that most hunters I have met are regular guys and not trophy hunters. These hunters also shoot most of their bucks for tablefare first. With many 1 1/2 year olds getting whacked here on a yearly basis, there still exsists an abundance of mature bucks. How do you explain it?

Maybe just great deer hunting in these states which are highly resistant to hunter impact. I have hunted out there three years now, and have seen no evidence to support the claim that hunter tendencies are responsible for the quality that exists in these deer herds.

Here is another pic of a 2004 kill. (My buddies brother in law) There are many more.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Im sorry, I said I was going to bow out of this, but I cant stand the way you people attack Cornfed and the other proponents of QDM.

If you read cornfeds last post (the longer one)......it explains it perfectly.

We arent forcing anyone to go out and wait for a 190" buck to walk by, hell we arent even making you wait for a 140" deer. We are simply asking for a year or two on the year old bucks.

Dont you all realize, that if you already have a few bucks under your belt, that you could probably hold off, and make hunting for everyone more enjoyable? The bucks would become more plentiful and bigger for everyone.

My brother, who has next to NO time to hunt, refuses to shoot young bucks. He says its not sporting, and that he would rather wait and test his skills on only old large bucks. He hasnt shot a buck in his life yet.....is he bitter? HELL NO......He is just happy to go out there and see big bucks. So I dont want to hear people complain about having too little time. He spent the last three years in different countries (USMC). And he hunted maybe 4 days at best this past year. 

SO this is what I propose to everyone.

If you want to SEE and possibly SHOOT MORE BIG BIG bucks...than just start passing the little bucks. Pass on any buck that looks like its about 1-1/2 or if your good 2-1/2 yrs old. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.
Dont worry about what your neighbor does, or anyone else, because....

When you see the small bucks....SCARE THE SH-T out of them... by waving and saying boo to them...hopefully they will become a little wiser and make it through till next year. If your lucky, you may get a chance at him...but remember, hes a year older, and a year wiser.

Ive been doing it here in NJ and it seems to be working. I hunt public land, yet Im the only one seeing bucks on the one property. They all b-tch and complain, saying theres nothing out there. But I know whats out there, and its getting bigger every year. Passed a basket rack 8 point two years ago, and recently saw him this year, he's now a beautiful monster 10 point. I know hes the same deer, because he has a funny looking ear and a white rack.

Couldnt get him this year, but boy what a thrill....hopefully next year right!

If NJ can grow em.....anywhere can. So if you have any desire to see big bucks in your area. Just start passing them, and scaring them. May sound silly, but it will work. Tell your friends too....after a year or at worst two....you will see an improvement. I promise.


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## bobht (Jan 23, 2005)

Smallbucks are tasty.Old does are not tasty. Old bucks are not tasty.One year I shot a medium size doe That I thought would be tasty. When it was skinned the doe was so skinny the butcher called the Department of natural resources. The butcher thought the deer was ill. The DNR examined the deer and said it was not sick just old and that the deer was more than 13 years old and didn't recommend that I eat it. I threw the deer away. 
Tonight I just finished eating some steaks from a year and a half old buck. they were as good as any porterhouse steak I have ever eaten. I put a little worchestershir sauce on them wrapped them in bacon and cooked them on the grill.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

bobht said:


> Smallbucks are tasty.Old does are not tasty. Old bucks are not tasty.One year I shot a medium size doe That I thought would be tasty. When it was skinned the doe was so skinny the butcher called the Department of natural resources. The butcher thought the deer was ill. The DNR examined the deer and said it was not sick just old and that the deer was more than 13 years old and didn't recommend that I eat it. I threw the deer away.
> Tonight I just finished eating some steaks from a year and a half old buck. they were as good as any porterhouse steak I have ever eaten. I put a little worchestershir sauce on them wrapped them in bacon and cooked them on the grill.



So your saying you let an entire deer go to waste because it probably wouldnt have been quite as tasty?

Thats respectful! Please dont hunt in my state. Ive never heard of such a thing. Im sure there is someone starving to death right now who would have eaten the "old" meat. Besides, if you learn to cook it properly, just about any "age" meat is pretty good. Please, next time your going to throw away a deer, find a program that can donate the venison to starving families. If they deem it unfit to eat then fine, but what you did was wrong.

Your not helping your side by posting such stuff. I suggest you hit the edit button before its too late!


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

"Im sorry, I said I was going to bow out of this, but I cant stand the way you people attack Cornfed and the other proponents of QDM.

If you read cornfeds last post (the longer one)......it explains it perfectly."


If Cornfed had started with the post you reference, people would be a lot more inclined to listen and discuss. His holier-than-thou, condescending, I'm better than you, remarks are what rub people (me anyway) the wrong way.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> So your take on the reason there is an abundance of bruiser bucks roaming the mid western states is, that most hunters in those states have practiced "restraint" for many years and thus built up the herd. Record books seem to indicate that world class animals have been indiginous to these geographic regions for several decades. When did this QDM practice of letting the little guys go start? The 60s perhaps?
> 
> I have a buddy in one of your neihboring states that is actively involved in hunting and guideing for whitetails and turkey. While he has taken a 190 class in the past, he and his buddies normally shoot the first buck they get a shot at. I have witnessed in this "land of giants" that most hunters I have met are regular guys and not trophy hunters. These hunters also shoot most of their bucks for tablefare first. With many 1 1/2 year olds getting whacked here on a yearly basis, there still exsists an abundance of mature bucks. How do you explain it?
> 
> ...


Have you ever hunted in the midwest, overabundance of mature bucks, gimme a break


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm sure bobht can fend for himself, but he didn't say that he threw the deer away because it wouldn't be tasty. The butcher thought it looked bad enough to call the DNR. The DNR recommended that he not eat it. I'd guess that under those circumstances most hunters would dispose of it.


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## littlebubba (Aug 28, 2002)

You shoot them when they are small they will never grow to be a trophy. Shoot whatever you wish, but don't come whinning to me that you can't harvest a wall hanger.
Bubba


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Have you ever hunted in the midwest, overabundance of mature bucks, gimme a break


 Very mature response. I guess you didn't comprehend much of which you read.


skyhunter said:


> I have hunted out there three years now, and have seen no evidence to support the claim that hunter tendencies are responsible for the quality that exists in these deer herds.


 What I have seen is an abundance of large deer running around, and many taken by novice hunters. I have also seen large numbers of imature bucks taken with no apparent impact on herd quality. This practice is the norm and has been for quite some time.

BTW, I have not taken a shot at a buck (have passed many) in 3 years. Yes I am a trophy hunter, but don't turn a blind eye to what I have witnessed first hand. I had expected a reply by Cornfed  

HUNT SAFE !!!! :smile:


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## littlebubba (Aug 28, 2002)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> I get sick and tired of the better than thou hunters (especially when they live in Hog Heaven) telling others what they should and should not shoot.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

littlebubba said:


> Why do you think they have a hog heaven. Where do you think the hogs came from.


 In many states passing on young ones has little to do with it. I have been to these "hog heavens" and the locals shoot the little ones in large numbers. Have you been there?

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

twogun said:


> I'm sure bobht can fend for himself, but he didn't say that he threw the deer away because it wouldn't be tasty. The butcher thought it looked bad enough to call the DNR. The DNR recommended that he not eat it. I'd guess that under those circumstances most hunters would dispose of it.



I know your not the one who made the comment, but since your speaking on his behalf. Why if there was no disease, would they recommend he not eat it? Just curious. I think if they told me not to eat it, I would certainly ask why. I dont want to let any animal go to waste, and meat is meat, if its freshly killed and kept below a certain temperature, it shouldnt spoil and should be fine to eat. Perhaps tough, or less "tasty", but I would think it should be fine. Afterall, it was a life you took to eat, dont just throw it away. 

If there was a valid reason to throw the meat away, then I apologize, I dont want anyone jeapordizing their health over 45 pounds of venison. But to me it sounded like he was trying to make a point that only young animals are good enough to eat. If thats the case, dont hunt, just buy veal. No need to senselessly kill animals in search of the "tasty" ones. Thats quite disrespectful in my eyes.


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

There are plenty of 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 year old does out there. I think what we're saying is a large portion of hunters in general meat hunters trophy hunter's you name it hunt for horns! Otherwise they wouldn't drive around for 2 hours and then bring it to me to process. The does that the "meat Hunter" shoots seems to make it to the processing area alot faster and has a tendency to eat real well.

Cornfed, keep growing the monsters and the true one's will get by your neighbors. Their gonna get nocturnal before most of us getem. 

For the true meat hunters, that take pride in feeding your family...keep on huntin and keep on eatin, I still think we could work together. 

Cornfed, you and I both know that mature bucks will be out there we would just like to see more of the mano mano bucks bustin heads etc. Yeah, that would be exciting. I think you need to work on more doe kills and get the ratio better and the rest will take care of itself. In the 17 years we've been processing I've seen the doe harvest create bigger deer across the board. One reason I took up archery is like alot of the guys on this post I had a hard time not only shooting immature bucks but does in general. The other thing that was mentioned earlier and I agree with it is that many of the guys here aren't as blessed as I am. No, I'm not talking about monster bucks but hunting time in the woods. I live in the backwood, sat on a stand today as a matter of fact and had some deer come by but I can hunt almost everyday of the season. Many of the city dwellers get that one week, one weekend etc. and don't see deer as often as we do and it is still considered a big challenge to them and I can't blame them. 

Oh, I would love to hunt some of those midwest bruisers that hang on the edge of those corn and soybean fields getting fat all summer long! I would probably get too excited and shoot a 2 1/2 year old.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

skyhunter said:


> So your take on the reason there is an abundance of bruiser bucks roaming the mid western states is, that most hunters in those states have practiced "restraint" for many years and thus built up the herd. Record books seem to indicate that world class animals have been indiginous to these geographic regions for several decades. When did this QDM practice of letting the little guys go start? The 60s perhaps?
> 
> I have a buddy in one of your neihboring states that is actively involved in hunting and guideing for whitetails and turkey. While he has taken a 190 class in the past, he and his buddies normally shoot the first buck they get a shot at. I have witnessed in this "land of giants" that most hunters I have met are regular guys and not trophy hunters. These hunters also shoot most of their bucks for tablefare first. With many 1 1/2 year olds getting whacked here on a yearly basis, there still exsists an abundance of mature bucks. How do you explain it?


Actually, as everyone knows, one of the keys to why we have produced such incredible animals is outstanding nutrition! When you cut quotes of mine out you shouldn't have stopped there and you would have perhaps answered some of you own questions! Here is the rest of that point: "The fact is that more mature bucks can be grown ANYWHERE! If more of you guys were involved in serious QDM (deer and habitat management) maybe your state would take measures to up the bar themselves and try to manage for tighter ratios and more mature deer in the herd?? The fact is we do indeed produce some awesome bucks.... BUT just imagine IF 75% of our antlered harvest weren't immature deer!!! I have said before, it doesn't matter..... it's about getting some AGE on the bucks in YOUR herd! It doesn't matter if it is a 100" buck in Alabama or a 160" in IL, the fact is that these deer are getting whacked as basket racked yearlings way to often."

Look at one of the best places to bowhunt in the U.S.? Without a doubt one of the reasons why Pike county has become so incredible is the fact that many Outfitters and properties do not allow bucks less than 130 class to be taken, this in turn means that the majority of bucks get to live to at least 3 1/2 years before becoming a target animal. This is why so many folks claim that Pike is so FUN to hunt. Yet a lot of you say, "well, IF I had a place like that I might hunt and think differently"..... guess what, you could work to make your areas just like it! That's my point, even hot spots like Pike wouldn't be half as good if folks weren't making a difference. 

You also ask if the reason for the monster bucks and this areas potential has a lot to do with "restraint"..... no not exactly, not always. I've mentioned nutrition and of course the shorter, less intense firearm seasons helps us a lot (a short season is a form of FORCED "restraint"). The reason such tremendous animals came especially from the early years of our herd is because of ideal growing conditions with minimal competition because of a lower populated, extremely healthy, tightly balanced herd. As I have mentioned, IF we could knock the Doe numbers down and let some immature animals go..... like I have mentioned..... just think of the possibilities these days! Here's a nice buck from IL from back in the ol' days, I would hate to have alot of these deer running around if it would mean a lot less deer for the "meat hunters" to shoot....wouldn't you???  










He dressed 270#....... that's a lot of MEAT on that dude, nevermind the 204 4/8" P&Y World Record headgear attached to that steak house! Impressive and yummy but I bet ol' Mel would have been happier with a tasty, tender yearling!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Durocab1 said:


> Cornfed, you and I both know that mature bucks will be out there we would just like to see more of the mano mano bucks bustin heads etc. Yeah, that would be exciting. I think you need to work on more doe kills and get the ratio better and the rest will take care of itself.


AMEN brother..... that is exactly what I ALWAYS stress! "Take a DOE, so the herd won't grow!" I assure you that I have taken Does of atleast a 5 to 1 ratio to every buck I have ever killed. That is my point, let the IMMATURE BUCKS walk and shoot a DOE!!! That way EVERYBODY benefits!


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

twogun said:


> "Im sorry, I said I was going to bow out of this, but I cant stand the way you people attack Cornfed and the other proponents of QDM.
> 
> If you read cornfeds last post (the longer one)......it explains it perfectly."
> 
> ...



I havent read through the entire 8 pages, so I dont know how he entered this thread. However, I do know him through posts and other communications, and I will say this. He doesnt seem like the type person to exude a "holier-than-thou" attitude. He is actually a very humble man from what I can tell. 

Perhaps he did though, Im certainly not saying your a liar, but it would most likely be because he is just so passionate about this topic, that he lets it get to him. If its any consolation, and will cause you to listen to those ideas. Than re-read it, pretending I wrote it. It practically mirrored what I would say, and I dont think I have offended anyone on this thread yet. Also, I certainly dont think highly of myself, no higher than anyone else anyway. Ive tried to listen to both sides here and be objective. But too many people want to turn this into an argument. 

An argument, and bashing session will get us no-where but p-ssed off.

Like I said before, both sides need to give a little and meet in the middle. By asking successful hunters to restrain from shooting yearling bucks we are giving. Maybe not a foot, but we are giving you something. Id prefer everyone who has shot one buck hold off for a buck of 2.5-3.5 yrs old. But I know thats not easy.

We are simply asking for most hunters to change their attitudes towards killing young bucks. It benifits the deer and the hunters. Yet from what I gather, the side opposing QDM is simply saying p-ss off and stuff it up your rear. We dont care what you want, we are perfectly happy with what we have. Well thats all well and good, except, your taking away from what we want.

It would NOT hurt anyone who has been successful in harvesting bucks in years past to let the young bucks walk. They wont fall off the face of the earth, and I promise their antlers will grow back bigger next year, not to mention they will have more meat on their bones to eat. If you really are so in need of food, that you MUST shoot the first deer you see, please contact me through pm, and I will help hook you up with a program that will provide your family with food. I know what its like to have no food in the pantry, so I can feel your pain. However, I know from experience that the one small buck is not going to make a large enough difference. The problem is much more severe, and will need help from several avenues. Fortunately my family's situation isnt as dire as it used to be, and food comes much more readily, but there was a time of state programs and hunger, so I know there are others out there with the same problems. We dont want to deny you the right to harvest food. We simply want to make the recreational hunters more aware of everyones needs and satisfaction.

I hope we can stop arguing this like children, and try to discuss it like the grown men we really are.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Matty - *Very* well put, very well put!

In reality, after this thread dies and the dust settles, one truth will still always remain, and no one can deny its truth.

Dead deer don't grow.

We the hunters ultimately *ARE* the wildlife managers. When you drop the string or pull the trigger (or choose not to) *YOU* have made a wildlife management decision. And as a wildlife manager, it is your *DUTY* to understand *ALL* the ramifications of your decision. Not only to yourself and your family, but to all others with whom you share existence with, including the biotic community.

Don't take your role lightly.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> When you cut quotes of mine out you shouldn't have stopped there and you would have perhaps answered some of you own questions! Here is the rest of that point:


 I did not intend to "cut quotes", and the rest of your post did tell a true story, but didn't address the questions that I sought an explanation for. Yes having outfitters that restrict what their clients take will make for bigger bucks. 

What I am trying to get across (and I am like you, after antlers) is that many states in your region are not as ill affected by the havesting of young bucks as are others. Yes letting little ones walk will help most states increase the average age of their bucks. Nothing new. 

What I asked was how do you explain the high number of mature deer in your state and neighboring ones, when every year high numbers of immature bucks are taken. I have seen first hand that there exists the same composition of regular hunters, trophy hunters, and slob hunters in big buck states and small racker states. A cross section of a random group of say 50 hunters is likely to contain about the same composition of "class levels" of hunters in any state in the country. Yes many guys would serve their state herds better to let the young ones walk, but other states have the same young buck mortality rates, yet suffer no ill affects. They still have big ones regardless. 

Cornfed, understand where I'm coming from. You are right about a lot but it's hard for a guy from one of the big states to drive that point home to some. I have seen the kind of deer hunting that your area of the country offers. I have seen guys do a lot wrong ( ex: same swety stinking clothes every day) and still get shots at big boys. 

Yes any state can improve the quality of their herd through selectivity, but it's a hard point to get across to a guy (not me) that is lucky to get off one shot in a season. Remember that cross-section of hunters. There aren't enough hunters interested in tomorrow to sacrifice what they can take home today. Having a guy from Illinois make that point (though he is right) makes it even harder to swallow for some.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

> I was asked a simple question on wether or not I could tell the difference in hunters.


No you weren't, that was addressed to Durocab1. You took that as an opportunity to attack hunters who don't share your goals.



> I hear all this dividing and stone throwing and it does upset me.


Then you should stop doing it. The only dividing and stone throwing that upsets you is when those stones are being thrown BACK at you. You sure don't have a problem when it's you tossing the stones and it's you and yours who start the stone throwing.

I fully agree about those who "need to shoot a buck, any buck" being self defeating, and if you notice when someone comes along and posts something along those lines I'm right there to tell them that does are just as much of a trophy. It's not my "all deer are a trophy" attitude that spawns this "need to shoot a buck, any buck" trend. It you who ignore the doe kills to drool over antlers.



> Dont you all realize, that if you already have a few bucks under your belt, that you could probably hold off


Why do you REFUSE to listen? It has nothing to do with bucks for some people. It is about meat.
Have you ever heard the story about the hunter who drops the bird in his hand because he hears two in the bush?
If I'm hunting meat and putting meat in my freezer is important, that yearling buck is a bird in the hand. I don't care how I slice it, an unfilled tag is not going to feed me for a year. I'll take the bird in the hand. If I need another deer after that I'll gladly wait on a doe unless the owner tells me to do otherwise. If I don't need another deer and I still want to be in the woods, I'll take up trophy hunting. But that first deer is the first and best shot offered when I need meat in the freezer. It's a bird in the hand.
I'm glad you guys make enough money that you can afford to buy beef and waste money on tags. That is not every hunter.
Yes if you want to see big bucks, you need to not shoot young bucks. But not everyone cares about big bucks.
Should I start passing on all male squirrels because I'm a meat hunter? Should I not shoot male rabbits?
To me deer hunting is no different than hunting rabbits, squirrels, ducks or pheasants. It's all meat.



> Without a doubt one of the reasons why Pike county has become so incredible is the fact that many Outfitters and properties do not allow bucks less than 130 class to be taken


Wrong, those outfitters are there because that area produced those trophies before they arrived. Your area producing record deer is why the outfitters are leasing up Fulton now.
I agree people could do the same to their own areas, but you're putting the cart before the horse claiming the outfitters came to Pike before Pike was producing trophies. Like you said, they could've gone anywhere and done that if they wanted to invest the time and money.



> Dead deer don't grow.


So don't shoot the 130" deer, let them go so they can grow. Or if you want to lie and say it's about age, don't shoot the 4 year old, let him go until he's 7. If you want to push your standards on others, you give others the right to push their standars on you.



> it was not sick just old and that the deer was more than 13 years old


So where are all the congrats for shooting the old deer? I read many people drooling over the big antlers, not one drooling over the 13 year old doe.
You guys who "just want mature deer not big antlers" would tell that lie much better if you'd try living it.


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

*a little food for thought....*

If you were a "anti hunter" and despised hunting,or if you were simply someone who did not hunt but had no problems with others hunting, how would you perceive this thread????

What I'm saying is guys rather you like it or not, holding out for a trophy size buck makes you look ( in the eyes of antis) that you are not concerned about the meat of the deer, only the antlers, and someone said that here already...

To me I see what your saying, but I'm not the one you should worry about, its antis that are gearing up right now to put the smack down on bowhunting and if you don't take this serious,you better wake up...

Fighting among ourselves as hunters in general is really giving them the upper hand..

Rather you shoot 200 does and have enough meat for 30 years, the minute you pass up a legal size buck holding out for the wall hanger, you look (to antis) that you are only after antlers and could care less about the meat, thats what scares me, something that we all love is being threatened and unknowingly were fueling it demise......


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Just so it can be known to everyone, I am reporting MYK to the moderators, it seems he is the main catalyst for arguing on here. 

He posts snip-its of peoples posts, and addresses them as that snip-it only. I will not sit and defend a single sentence from one of my posts, when the rest of the post already explained it. Nor should anyone else. Posting words out of context, while moving to people who havent read the original post, is not any sort of debate. Its simply twisting, and manipulating what another person said, in a poor attempt at looking intelligent, and in the right. However, to anyone looking over the entire thread, they will pick up on this, and respect you less. Just as I lost respect for Myk the day he returned my kind, private message, with an arrogant, I hate the world attitude. I tried to make amends, he refused. It is obvious he is quite happy in his instigator role, and probably derives much pleasure from it. 

If he cannot find the good in all I have written above, then I dont think he should be allowed in these conversations. He is like a can of gasoline on a fire. Not adding anything of substance, yet trying very hard to continue making this an argument.

Im surprised people like him have not already caused the demise of Archery Talk. Im sure if you looked through his 4000+ posts, that not many would consist of helpful or positive information. Fortunately, I guess the kind, helpful members outweigh types like MYK.

I think that his posts should be reviewed, and if as said, he should be warned and kept under watch. Otherwise we will lose positive helpful members to his non-sense. I dont want to see that, and Im sure others dont either.

Now Im sure Myk will attack this, saying I change the subject to avoid refuting his comments. To that I say, GO BACK and READ MY ENTIRE POSTS, and the ENTIRE posts of everyone else you took snip-its from, chances are, you'll refute your own argument.

Thanks and have a great day all---Matt


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## thunderatwork (Feb 4, 2005)

i've been folling this thread with interest, and have to add my spin as it hasn't really been mentioned. i hunt with my two teenage boys, and there is no way i will tell them at this point that they should pass on anything, even a button buck. also i'm from illinois, and where i'm at if i held out for a 150 class buck tecchnically i would not have shot at a deer in seventeen years with gun or bow, i'm sorry but all of illinois is not bursting with pope and young deer. yes if we all let them go they would grow,however they group i hunt near are supposed to doing that but every year they shoot basket racks and have a excuse--i thought it was limping, is looked bigger,etc. etc.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> BTW, I have not taken a shot at a buck (have passed many) in 3 years. Yes I am a trophy hunter, but don't turn a blind eye to what I have witnessed first hand. I had expected a reply by Cornfed
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! :smile:


If you are a trophy hunter, and you see big bucks running everywhere, why havent you shot one.



> Very mature response. I guess you didn't comprehend much of which you read. What I have seen is an abundance of large deer running around, and many taken by novice hunters. I have also seen large numbers of imature bucks taken with no apparent impact on herd quality. This practice is the norm and has been for quite some time.


BULLCRAP.

Any time you take a lot of immature bucks it effects the herd quality, I am not sure where you hunted but if you seen all that there was a fence around it.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> In many states passing on young ones has little to do with it. I have been to these "hog heavens" and the locals shoot the little ones in large numbers. Have you been there?
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


I live here, its not like that


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## Larry Rooks (Jan 25, 2003)

I agree with Mike on most of this. Hunters ARE the game managers, not DNR, especially here in Georgia.. Heck, insurance companies have way more say so on the deer herd than the DNR does :angry: We need DNR back into the game and politicians and insurance companies OUT. 

MYK
I don't want what is yours, I want better. I don't know where you got this NAZI BS from :thumbs_do but I know a good place you can put it. Many of us have different opinions and some don't like it when anothers opinion differs from theirs  

KNOWN FACT, and it don't take a smart person to figure this out. You shoot the Bucks as a yearling or first year spike, 6 pt whatever, he ain't gonna grow to an older age and into a mature Buck. You want meat for the freezer,
shoot a Doe, it want hurt a thing. Let a young Buck walk and take him two years later, would it not make you feel better to take a nice respectable and mature Buck? Or just kill anything that walks by to fill an urge :sad:


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## syksvlljohn (Mar 13, 2005)

*reply*

wow what a heated topic here one for yah shoot a tree instead


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## syksvlljohn (Mar 13, 2005)

*just kidding*

just kidding i can see good points on both sides this has been a real interesting post i just hope we all can get along bowhunters got to stick together there are other areas of concern to worry about besides brow beating each other over the head lol


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> If you are a trophy hunter, and you see big bucks running everywhere, why havent you shot one.


 Most bowhunters realize there is a difference between seeing them and shooting them. Luck has not been on my side, as far as shot distance and angle are concerned. I guess your logic says that since I have not shot one then I am not being honest with my story. It's sad that you might think that way.


Josh Michaelis said:


> BULLCRAP. I am not sure where you hunted but if you seen all that there was a fence around it.


 Again you are showing your classy side. Tell another forum member he is a liar. Very nice way to represent yourself Josh. In addition tell that member he must hunt inside a fence. Your the reason many members find some of these threads soo entertaining. When you engage with another that has your classy style of calling the other a liar, and has a different view, you turn what should be a civil debate into a war of insulting words. Have a nice day.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> In many states passing on young ones has little to do with it. I have been to these "hog heavens" and the locals shoot the little ones in large numbers. Have you been there?
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


I have been there, I live there, and passing on little ones has everything to do with it, look at the people that CONSISTANTLY kill mature whitetails in "hog heaven" as you so eloquently put it, 99.999999% of them have practiced QDM for years on a piece of property to do it. We kill big bucks every year off of the property that we hunt, but we rarely did so until we implemented QDM.

I fear that you are grossly misinformed, and everyone that lives here will tell you the same thing


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

skyhunter said:


> Cornfed, understand where I'm coming from. You are right about a lot but it's hard for a guy from one of the big states to drive that point home to some.
> 
> Having a guy from Illinois make that point (though he is right) makes it even harder to swallow for some.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


Yep, I understand what youre saying, to an extent. IF I was from another state that didn't have the reputation, do you feel that folks would be more open and willing to listen? I could always reset and change my log-in name and claim I'm from PA or something? :wink:  

All kidding aside, I do want the ultimate in quality hunting yet I clearly understand that many just need to experience ANY sort of quality hunting. I have been asked several times by folks about why I even bother trying to educate many to the advantages of serious QDM? I honestly would love if many could experience some sort of true quality hunting;.... and I honestly mean that! The more of a taste they could get, the more they would want. I get the chance to chat with many extremely serious sportman from all over the country and know that serious quality improvement is indeed possible everywhere the whitetail is found. It just takes some hard work and dedication. 

I just get frustrated to hear everyone always fish for excuses on why they NEED to kill an immature deer. It NOT a compettion against hunters, it's a competition against a whitetail wits. The choice is yours. If you truly desire to shoot a immature animal then "go with the buzz" that's what I often tell folks that hunt with me, not on MY own land though, but on other properties I hunt. :wink: If you're truly happy with it, then be proud and it certainly shouldn't matter what anybody says. Granted, don't expect everyone to be doing backflips over the fact that you just put an arrow or bullet through the easiest to kill deer in the woods but whocares what anybody think or says..... right? I certainly don't look for anybody to stroke my ego and rarely say anything about any deer I take. In fact, you'll rarely see me say anything about deer that I HAVE tagged.... only when called out as some on this thread have done in the past. Some have asked me to put up or shut up and then if I produce pics of nice animals they simply move on to the next fight. Many I get frustarated with because they seem to stand against.... just for the sake of fighting and confrontation. 

The bottom line is that I hunt for myself and setting goals is just part of life, like most of you.... I guess I don't care what anybody else says about it. Be happy with what you tag..... you are the one that has to LIVE with what you have killed. As many who know me, I'm not the type of person who is gonna openly rip anybody for what they have taken. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to comment on a distasteful photo of someone "displaying" their "trophy" then I ever am by the size of it. Most of the time, I offer a simple congrats to a clean kill and a well placed shot and great recovery. I just want to see folks start becoming a little more involved with the animals they claim to love so much. Contrinbute a little. Hell, I guess I'm more of a meat hunter than I am a trophy hunter then, because every season I take between 6 to 10 Does. I'm generally only interested in taking ONE good buck. I usually only use the meat from one deer and then give the rest away to folks aorund here that want it. That usually also gives me the chance to again "inform" folks of the importance of QDM by tagging Does and allowing immature deer to walk. The tasty venison usually gets them to listen and also help spread the worbd about bowhunting being a very effective management tool. I'm ALWAYS trying to promote our sport in a good light one way or the other. Good luck to all of you this next season. But I also will issue a challenge, just let ONE more buck walk past than you ever have and try to fill just ONE more Doe tag than you have. That's all I can ask.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Josh Michaelis said:


> I have been there, I live there, and passing on little ones has everything to do with it, look at the people that CONSISTANTLY kill mature whitetails in "hog heaven" as you so eloquently put it, 99.999999% of them have practiced QDM for years on a piece of property to do it. We kill big bucks every year off of the property that we hunt, but we rarely did so until we implemented QDM.
> 
> I fear that you are grossly misinformed, and everyone that lives here will tell you the same thing


I have talked with many around here about this "big buck behind every tree" theory that many that live on the "other side" claim. Most of the "good" consistent "trophy" hunters that I know still consider themselves "lucky" to see a very small handful of good bucks every season. To many Team Realtree videos have folks in a dream state that just isn't reality? Heck, the only time I ever see a field with more than a few deer in it is way in the late season when food sources become much more concentrated. It just isn't all that, HOWEVER knowing that the potential that the one big buck you may see might be a real thumper someday keeps you hangin' on! Hey, in my "perfect" world my spots would resemble one of those jaw dropping Milk River hunts!!!


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> I have talked with many around here about this "big buck behind every tree" theory that many that live on the "other side" claim. Most of the "good" consistent "trophy" hunters that I know still consider themselves "lucky" to see a very small handful of good bucks every season. To many Team Realtree videos have folks in a dream state that just isn't reality? Heck, the only time I ever see a field with more than a few deer in it is way in the late season when food sources become much more concentrated. It just isn't all that, HOWEVER knowing that the potential that the one big buck you may see might be a real thumper someday keeps you hangin' on! Hey, in my "perfect" world my spots would resemble one of those jaw dropping Milk River hunts!!!


I know what you are saying, I live 5 miles south of the Iowa line, I see some monsters in both states through the summer, but come fall, GOOD LUCK, a mature whitetail, no matter how many there are in an area, is no pushover. People that think you can kill a bruiser every year if your neighbors wack and stack the doinkers needs to come hunt with me for a couple of seasons.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Josh Michaelis said:


> People that think you can kill a bruiser every year if your neighbors wack and stack the doinkers needs to come hunt with me for a couple of seasons.


That's what I was going to say but I didn't want to put out the invite! LOL   

Hey, maybe you and your buddy Myk go enjoy a quality hunt together and share hunting tips and tactics???  :wink:


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> I have been there, I live there, and passing on little ones has everything to do with it, look at the people that CONSISTANTLY kill mature whitetails in "hog heaven" as you so eloquently put it,


 Your mistaken again. As you can see by the following post that I made hog heaven is in quotes.


skyhunter said:


> In many states passing on young ones has little to do with it. I have been to these "hog heavens" and the locals shoot the little ones in large numbers. Have you been there?


 Here is the post I was quoting as well as who I was asking if they had hunted this region.


littlebubba said:


> Why do you think they have a hog heaven. Where do you think the hogs came from.


 You see, you turned things around a bit there. "Eloquently" done.

To sum up the point one more time. We have the same classes of hunters in all states. Serious trophy hunters, regular joe hunters, meat hunters, weekenders, and slobs. Every state has a similar ratio of one class to another. Imature bucks are shot in all states at near equal percentages by these regular joe, weekender, or slob hunters. They are the easiest to kill and most hunters shoot them.

Now here's the main point. Many states in the country have the ability to buffer this loss of yougins and still maintain a healhty population of mature bucks. And yes the same was true many decades ago before QDM became popular.


Josh Michaelis said:


> I fear that you are grossly misinformed, and everyone that lives here will tell you the same thing


 This is what I have witnessed for the 3 years I have hunted there. Josh, you know from my posts that I have spent a lot of hours hunting these lands. Why do you continue to imply otherwise?


cornfed said:


> Most of the "good" consistent "trophy" hunters that I know still consider themselves "lucky" to see a very small handful of good bucks every season.


 Yes luck is always a big factor, but I have mananged to see biguns every year in your neighboring state. Yea, closing the deal usually requires a little more luck. That's why we love it; cause it ain't easy ! Good chattin with ya corn . :thumbs_up

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> This is what I have witnessed for the 3 years I have hunted there. Josh, you know from my posts that I have spent a lot of hours hunting these lands. Why do you continue to imply otherwise? :thumbs_up
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


Oh im sorry, I didnt know that you had hunted there for three years, I mistakingly thought that I had a little more experience considering that I live here and hunt here, and have done so all of my life, my bad.

You said that people could kill immature deer and big deer can still be had for the taking. Well it is not true, here or anywhere else in the nation.


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

> You said that people could kill immature deer and big deer can still be had for the taking. Well it is not true, here or anywhere else in the nation.


Josh Michaelis,
Your making the statement that anyone that has ever killed a record book buck has not killed a immature deer in the same year? Across the whole nation? 

GTR


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> You said that people could kill immature deer and big deer can still be had for the taking. Well it is not true, here or anywhere else in the nation


 So your saying that where there exists a healthy population of mature bucks, there are not regular joe, weekend, meat, or slob hunters knocking off the 1 1/2 year olds. These guys are doing the same thing they have been doing for years and will always do, and it is happening in every state accross the nation; big buck state or not.

Yea, the of quality bucks taken in your region today and decades ago are the result of QDM. Hunters didn't shoot the little ones years ago and they don't shoot em now. That sounds about right huh?

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> So your saying that where there exists a healthy population of mature bucks, there are not regular joe, weekend, meat, or slob hunters knocking off the 1 1/2 year olds. These guys are doing the same thing they have been doing for years and will always do, and it is happening in every state accross the nation; big buck state or not.
> 
> Yea, the of quality bucks taken in your region today and decades ago are the result of QDM. Hunters didn't shoot the little ones years ago and they don't shoot em now. That sounds about right huh?
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


Where there exists a healthy population of mature bucks? 

that means that they are practicing QDM, that is what QDM does, it gives you a healthy population of mature bucks.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Where there exists a healthy population of mature bucks?
> 
> that means that they are practicing QDM, that is what QDM does, it gives you a healthy population of mature bucks.


You left out the part of the regular hunters shooting the 1 1/12 year olds. Why not address it. I guess making your case relies on your ignoring the main body of my posts. 

You can choose to evade the point I am making, but like it or not, the fact remains that most hunters shoot the first buck they see; and that includes the big buck states, which continue to produce mature animals.

That's how it has always been in the past, that's how it is today, and that's how it will always be. You can dance around the truth all you like, but some things will never change.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> You can choose to evade the point I am making, but like it or not, the fact remains that most hunters shoot the first buck they see; and that includes the big buck states, which continue to produce mature animals.


Sky - maybe Josh isn't evading your point. Maybe he's just like me and has failed to see you ever really make a point. You're arguing in circles.

I have reams of research that supports the findings of QDM if you would ever care to open your mind and read it. It's not black magic. And no one here is really trying to force anyone to hunt a certain way. Just as you said above "the fact remains that most hunters shoot the first buck they see", I would also say as fact that 99% of those hunters wouldn't behave that way if they truly believed that they had a decent chance at a mature whitetail buck. QDM gives them that chance more than any other method of deer management. It's really all about what the people want. And like it or not, the people have already spoken in Missouri by allowing antler restrictions. This is a direct indication of the desire of the general hunting public to have more mature whitetails in the population structure.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Mike Trump said:


> Just as you said above "the fact remains that most hunters shoot the first buck they see", I would also say as fact that 99% of those hunters wouldn't behave that way if they truly believed that they had a decent chance at a mature whitetail buck.


Very, very TRUE!!!


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## booner (Mar 20, 2004)

*Tell ya what-*

Anybody that thinks you can just walk out in the timber on any given day in states like Illinois, Iowa,Wisconsin, etc.,and drop a Boone and Crockett,or even a Pope and Young class animal at will , has never been there-is reading way to much hype-or is one lucky boy. If ya think there's one behind every tree , come on down give it a whirl! Than comeback the next year and do it again! They don't come easy guys! *ANYWHERE!* It takes alot of work,alot of guessing, and alot of sacrifice to make it happen year after year. If you think that the guys that take big bucks year after year in these states can do so because its easy, than you are a fool !!!


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## kyhillbilly74 (Aug 8, 2004)

I agree with jerry/nj and if my state did what mikec was talking about I would go some where els to go hunting you do your thing and Ill do mine and don't force feed me any thing becoues I won't eat it there is alot of big buck's here in ohio and Im a deer hunter and iv cooked antlers every way I can think of and can't get theme soft enoff to eat look over my spelling


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## Gamehog1 (Mar 19, 2005)

I heard that this discussion would get out of hand when I suggest it to the fish cops in my state but I'm seeing now why I don't hunt out of my home state.I'm very greatfull that this was brought up to hear what everyone else has to settle with/deal with I personally believe that there should be a point restriction on deer for everyone over the age of 15 there is *NO* reason where i'm from you should have to shoot anything less than P&Y minium I passed up a about a 130" 5x5 opening weekend of archery season this year because we were hunting a new area that I have seen way better bucks than that but in hindsight seeing what I ended up shooting with my rifle 3 months later I F****D up but given the chance at the same discision again I would do it again can't shoot big ones if you kill them when their little fellas plus when I shoot a buck it is not for the meat I shoot anywhere between 2-5 does a year because we have so many stinking mule deer on my grandmothers ranch in conjunction with all the public land to hunt around here.. So Heres a big Thank you to hear from other parts of the country..


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Mike Trump said:


> I have reams of research that supports the findings of QDM if you would ever care to open your mind and read it. It's not black magic.


 If you read my posts, you would know that I don't challenge the returns of QDM, and am myself a trophy hunter first that shoots an occassional doe. Why continue to belabor that point when I don't dispute it.


Mike Trump said:


> Sky - maybe Josh isn't evading your point. Maybe he's just like me and has failed to see you ever really make a point.


 One last try. States such as yours (I have hunted there many times) have a high quality deer herd that contains many mature bucks. Like any state in the nation it also has mostly average joe, weekender, meat, and slob hunters. These hunters almost always shoot the first buck they see, yes *it happens every year in your state.* Yet your state and others that border it continue to support healthy pops of mature animals.

Another point is that it has been that way in that part of the country for quite some time. Guys have been shooting the little ones from day 1 everywhere, and will continue to do so. You've had trophy animals coming from these parts for decades, *before QDM* was practiced.These states have the ability to buffer this young buck mortality and still offer high quality trophy hunting as well. *That's the point !* 

Again, I never said QDM wouldn't improve things anywhere it is practiced. Just that I have been there many times and will be going back. I'm actually ready to purchase lakefront property in MO as soon as possible. But fear not, as you should already know by now, I don't shoot the little ones. Well I got to get to work now.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . :smile:


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## bobht (Jan 23, 2005)

Dingoo well stated. If I didn't end up with a couple deer in my freezer shot with my bow I would Probably quit hunting and probably stop shooting my bow year around.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> One last try. States such as yours (I have hunted there many times) have a high quality deer herd that contains many mature bucks. Like any state in the nation it also has mostly average joe, weekender, meat, and slob hunters. These hunters almost always shoot the first buck they see, yes *it happens every year in your state.* Yet your state and others that border it continue to support healthy pops of mature animals.
> 
> Another point is that it has been that way in that part of the country for quite some time. Guys have been shooting the little ones from day 1 everywhere, and will continue to do so. You've had trophy animals coming from these parts for decades, *before QDM* was practiced.These states have the ability to buffer this young buck mortality and still offer high quality trophy hunting as well. *That's the point !*


Ok, I finally get your point. I just don't think it's entirely valid. In principle, sure. But not in practice. You are making a gross generalization about the entire STATE being a trophy deer state. Sure, some large bucks have come out of MO, and IA and IL and OH on a consistent basis. However, the fact that you have failed to see is that these bucks don't come from all over the state all the time. They come from "hot spots" around the state. Very small areas, like one county or even one township. So yes, to your point, many small bucks ARE shot in general across our states. However, these small areas that have generally but consistently produced bigger than average bucks have done so due to usually large private ownership tracts where QDM-like practices have taken place. My point here is that it's not automatic. When you really get down and look at it, states just don't automatically produce quality whitetails. The come from areas that have been one way or the other, intensively managed by the locals. So, no these states really don't have the ability to buffer the young buck mortality. Because in areas where they aren't allowed to walk, big bucks are still very rare. You would only know this if you've lived here your entire life. To an outsider that only hunts one parcel then goes home, it would not be this evident. I've hunted literally all over this state for my entire life, so I can tell you for sure this is true.

For a true world example of this, 5 years ago I purchased 300 acres just five miles from the Iowa line in Missouri. It was some of the best deer habitat in that entire township and even in the entire county (Harrison). But, the bucks were small and very few and far between. This was due entirely to how it had been hunted all the years previous. I immediately implemented a QDM program and also got the neighbor's involved. Now we have close to 4,000 acres of private ground being managed the same way. Last year, only 3 bucks were shot off this 4,000 acres, but all three were over 175". I passed a butt-load of great looking 3 1/2 year old's and had an absolute blast. I shot a 175 lb. doe with my bow and a 145 lb. doe with my rifle. So I did my part to contribute. But it wasn't like this 5 years ago. And it isn't like this even across the county line. 

mt


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Mike Trump said:


> When you really get down and look at it, states just don't automatically produce quality whitetails. The come from areas that have been one way or the other, intensively managed by the locals.


 I agree with you on some points you have made but, haven't these states produced quality animals for decades, long before landowners got into game management? Isn't that why many outfitters set up camp here in the first place? As myk stated in an earlier post, aren't you putting the cart before the horse here? The record books indicate that quality animals came from these areas long before the implementation of QDM. 

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> I agree with you on some points you have made but, haven't these states produced quality animals for decades, long before landowners got into game management? Isn't that why many outfitters set up camp here in the first place? As myk stated in an earlier post, aren't you putting the cart before the horse here? The record books indicate that quality animals came from these areas long before the implementation of QDM.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


Yes they have, so has almost every state produced quality deer, even in the Northeast. 

So you know that QDM works, and you practice it, but you are arguing that you dont need it to kill a big deer in the midwest. Is this correct.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

The following write up was taken directly from the QDMA website. Read it over, and realize that this is what I am pushing for. I believe most of the "trophy hunters" here would be happy if we could get even just 70% of the hunting population to go by this. You can clearly see that we are willing to work with both sides and that QDM is structured around all types of hunters, not merely trophy hunters. If more hunters can realize the benefits that come from following a program such as QDM, than EVERYONE will have a much more enjoyable hunting experience. 

If your interested in more QDM facts, please visit their website; http://www.qdma.com/

If you have further questions, or would just like to discuss it, please contact me, as I enjoy discussing QDM and the positive impacts it has on all deer herds, habitat, and wildlife.---Matt
-------------------------------------------

What is Quality Deer Management? 
Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does. 
Participants must take an active role in management and maintain accurate harvest records to assess management progress and fine-tune management strategies. Harvest restrictions and rules, especially for young bucks, must be implemented and enforced. Where high deer populations already exist, initial QDM restrictions generally result in a reduced total buck harvest and an increased doe harvest. As such, QDM often requires a change in hunting practices and a new mindset. 
Practicing QDM produces many benefits. Typically, the sex ratio becomes more balanced and the number (or proportion) of bucks in the older age classes increases. Often, more mature bucks are available for breeding, resulting in less stress on yearling bucks and an earlier, more-defined rut. In some cases, deer health and body weights improve due to improved habitat conditions, which also benefit many other wildlife species. The lower deer density also helps reduce crop damage and deer/vehicle collisions. 

QDM often is confused with trophy deer management. While the two approaches share several objectives, they also differ in many ways. Under trophy deer management, fully mature bucks with high-scoring antlers are the primary focus. Whitetail bucks typically attain maximum antler size between 5.5 and 8.5 years of age. 
Producing bucks of this age and antler quality requires many ingredients not available to most hunters. Because some adult bucks have home ranges of 2,000 acres or more, large tracts of land, often 5,000 acres or more, are required. Because buck home ranges are not uniform in shape and size, few adult bucks live their entire lives on a single property, even on 5,000 acres. 
The ability to control hunting pressure is paramount, especially on promising 2.5-, 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks. This requires considerable field-judging skill and self-control. Unless the herd is enclosed and supplementally fed, deer density must be kept low to allow optimum nutrition so bucks can maximize antler potential. This often involves aggressive doe harvests (even higher than under QDM) and intensive habitat management. Therefore, while trophy deer management is a biologically sound approach, it is not feasible in many areas and the associated costs outweigh the benefits for most hunters.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

As you can see, QDM, should not be confused with TDM.

As mentioned, both share several similarities, but differ in the amount of restraint, and work involved. We, as trophy hunters arent asking you to practice TDM, merely QDM.

If you have the best interest of balanced age and sex ratios, better habitat, and socially and enviromentally acceptable deer populations in mind. Then please practice QDM. 

If you really like the benefits it provides, and consider yourself an active hunter and member of protecting our rights and future, approach your States Wildlife division, or biologists! Ask them to consider implementing changes that incorporate QDM. Changes dont have to be drastic, but will ultimately benefit everyone involved. From hunters to landowners, deer and other wildlife, and even motorists.

Have a good one, and let your voice be heard if you want a better hunting experience.---Matt


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

VERY informative post Matty, I hope MANY here actually take the time to read it. As you mentioned, IF we could get the majority to practice QDM than we would ALL (both huters and the animals) benefit. With QDM accepted it would only be the for the most hard core and dedicated to decide if they would ever be ready or willing to make the transition to TDM. Regardless, I think EVERYONE wouild be considerably happier with the results.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> So you know that QDM works, and you practice it, but you are arguing that you dont need it to kill a big deer in the midwest. Is this correct.


Not that it won't help to see more. Killing them is something different. Just saying that my experiences have shown me that you have a better chance in these states even thou thousands of little ones are getting put down here also. I don't think you can ever change the young buck kill. IMO out of 10 random hunters only 1 is truly concerned with antler quality. Only 1 of 10 will pass up shots. QDM is a great tool for private tracks, but the regular hunter will always be just that; a guy that shoots the first buck he can. They greatly outnumber us.

I have bowhunted NY for a minimum of 20 full days a season for 11 years now. While I have taken a few good ones for here and have seen some real bigguns, my first trip to your homeland changed all that. I now save 7 vacation days trying to hit your rut; and boy did I see it kick in last year; but no shot opp.

So to answer your question; the necessity of QDM varies with the woodlot, and is less important in some. Some woodlots can handle the yearly young buck mortality, and still provide good opps at biguns year after year. Other woodlots cannot. That's why I'm moving over there. Some of yours can.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . .


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> So to answer your question; the necessity of QDM varies with the woodlot, and is less important in some. Some woodlots can handle the yearly young buck mortality, and still provide good opps at biguns year after year. Other woodlots cannot. That's why I'm moving over there. Some of yours can.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . .


Yes but to kill good deer CONSISTANTLY, you need to hunt an area that is managed, That is the way it is here.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Yes but to kill good deer CONSISTANTLY, you need to hunt an area that is managed, That is the way it is here.


To *kill* them *consistantly*, yes, that, skills, and a little luck too. I wouldn't dare debate that. 

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> To *kill* them *consistantly*, yes, that, skills, and a little luck too. I wouldn't dare debate that.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


Thank god we agree, that is all I am trying to say. 

What were we arguing about again?


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Heck yes.... to be consistent... that's what it's all about! Anybody can be lucky once or twice. I want the chance to see strong dominant mature animals every year and to enjoy the show. I want to see well balanced sex ratios. I want to see ONLY the strongest and most dominate animals pass on their genetics. That's my dream. :thumbs_up I don't want to see a bunch of young basket racked yearlings hanging over everyones tail gate!


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> Heck yes.... to be consistent... that's what it's all about! Anybody can be lucky once or twice. I want the chance to see strong dominant mature animals every year and to enjoy the show. I want to see well balanced sex ratios. I want to see ONLY the strongest and most dominate animals pass on their genetics. That's my dream. :thumbs_up I don't want to see a bunch of young basket racked yearlings hanging over everyones tail gate!


While I applaude your ambitions, in reality the vast majority of hunters could care less. I'm afraid your fight while being a noble one, is in vain. Yes that is a nice dream.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> While I applaude your ambitions, in reality the vast majority of hunters could care less. I'm afraid your fight while being a noble one, is in vain. Yes that is a nice dream.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . . :smile:


Vast Majority, I doubt that, I would say not even a majority, it is 50/50 and getting better.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Vast Majority, I doubt that, I would say not even a majority, it is 50/50 and getting better.


Josh i feel we are greatly out numbered.
The average hunter does not live and breath this stuff, as we do. 
The average hunter does not spend time on a hunting forum as we do. 
The average hunter does not count how many months left until september rolls around, as we do. 
The average hunter does not practice much with his weapon as we do. (Most only gun hunt) 
The average hunter does not alot the bulk of his vacation time to hunt.(as I do) 
The average hunter does not think about ageing a buck before shooting it. 
The average hunter does not even know what QDM is. 
Again your mission to educate them is noble *but* 

The average hunter packs his things away when he has hunted his last day, and doesn't see them again until november.
The average hunter spends his off season time on things unrelated to hunting.
The average hunter's plan for the upcoming season is non existant.
The average hunter takes little or no time to practice with his weapon.
The average hunter buys the few things he needs days before expects to use them. (many, the day before)
The average hunter hits the woods with a *gun* .
The average hunter hunts wearing whatever and looks for a buck to shoot.
The average hunter gets impatient easily. 
The average hunter can get cold quickly when temps are low, and is unprepared for inclement weather.
The average hunter does not enjoy his time in the woods as we do.
The average hunter can't wait to close the deal and get back to that warm cabin.
The average hunter thinks "getting one" is what it's all about.
The average hunter dreams of telling his freinds that he got one.
The average hunter then sees what appears to be a deer with something on top; yes it is a buck. 
The average hunter then gets very exited thinking "this is it", i'm gonna shoot this one.
The average hunter is unaware of the deer's age.(it is not even a thought)
The average hunter works to get the shot and takes it as soon as possible.
The average hunter often kills the buck. (the buck is usually a 1 1/2 year old)


Like it or not this is a fact. It is the way it has always been, and how it always will be. Like I said before; QDM is a noble cause, but those hunters who you are trying to reach don't live in your world. 

Those of us who take interest in QDM are hunters 365 days a year.
*The average hunter is not a hunter until it is time to go hunting .* 

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . .


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I'm certainly not for laying down and giving up on everyone. It's a challenge, just like hunting itself. In fact, I have seen my area make some changes, especially in just the past 5 years. There are many more bowhunters now that are passing smaller bucks up that would have NEVER have thought of such a thing in the past. Like I have said, I'll just take one hunter and one buck at a time as a victory. We are strating to get through to many bowhunters especially. With UNLIMTED over-the-counter Doe tags here there isn't much of an excuse for the "meat hunter" to say he shot that little buck for the meat. You can only shoot 2 bucks in IL every year but 500+ Does IF you wanted to. That's a LOT more meat. Don't give up and lay down.... it's actually a challenge that we are gaining ground with.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> I'm certainly not for laying down and giving up on everyone. It's a challenge, just like hunting itself. In fact, I have seen my area make some changes, especially in just the past 5 years. There are many more bowhunters now that are passing smaller bucks up that would have NEVER have thought of such a thing in the past. Like I have said, I'll just take one hunter and one buck at a time as a victory. We are strating to get through to many bowhunters especially. With UNLIMTED over-the-counter Doe tags here there isn't much of an excuse for the "meat hunter" to say he shot that little buck for the meat. You can only shoot 2 bucks in IL every year but 500+ Does IF you wanted to. That's a LOT more meat. Don't give up and lay down.... it's actually a challenge that we are gaining ground with.


I agree, bowhunters can be reached and I commend you for doing so. They are a different breed. I have even made some progress in my camp. The gun hunters represent the group I spoke of and they have the greatest impact. Restrictions will help but this is a tough mountain to climb. Good luck in your quest.

HUNT SAFE !!!! . .


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## buck-i (Jan 23, 2003)

i dont mind being called an average deer hunter.i fit in some of skyhunters examples of what average deer hunters are.
i am though a real outdoorsman. right know its sandbass season next its turkey and crappie then its all about catfishing for me, see i cant spend that 365 days that you real deer hunters claim to spend.
so call me the average deer hunter no harm done here my 5 boys see what kind of hunter and outdoorsman i am they eat the proof of our success in the great outdoors be it fish ,turkey deer. 
this average hunter still gets excited seeing a doe or buck.guess the real hunter dont.
this average hunter usually feels the cold on my feet but wont leave the stand unless it does become unbearable.hasnt happened yet.
this average hunters wears nat gear dont know what real hunters wear that attracts big deer.
this average hunter has got 5 boys and a wife(the boss or sheriff)that get the bulk of my vacation or time in the off season.this is just me thats what floats my boat.
dont fit the average hunter profile when it comes to hitting the woods with a rifle i bow hunt only but rifle hunters are very important to deer hunting.imo.
this average hunter works to get the shot and takes it as soon as possible when in range and offers me a clean shot.surpised you said average hunters workto get a shot.
this average hunter has taken his share of 1 1/2 year bucks but have pass on many of them.
i'm buck-i and i'm an average hunter.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> Josh i feel we are greatly out numbered.
> The average hunter does not live and breath this stuff, as we do.
> The average hunter does not spend time on a hunting forum as we do.
> The average hunter does not count how many months left until september rolls around, as we do.
> ...


Not the average hunter here. The ones you described are below average in this locale


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

I dont understand why we always have to lump ourselves into categories.

I dont know if Im as maniacal about trophy deer as some people, but Im also not an "average hunter". I dont think that "buck-i" is either. I understand skyhunter meant no harm in generalizing, and I understand what hes saying. However, its these generalizations that separate us. 

We are ALL stewards of the land and wildlife. We ALL have a responsibility to use our better judgement when afield. We ALL should have the future of the sport in mind when we make decisions. We are ALL HUNTERS! 

Whether your an "average hunter", a "trophy hunter", a "meat hunter", or a little bit of everything. Your still a hunter. 

QDM itself isnt about forcing people to act differently, but, it is about a new mindset, or attitude towards our role. If you want to see our sport thrive for years and generations to come, than you have to practice it to some extent. 

Here in NJ, while they dont regulate bucks, they did incorporate earn-a-buck several years ago. This forces hunters to shoot a doe before a buck during certain seasons. While its not perfect, it was a step in the right direction. Doe harvests went up dramaticly, and habitat bounced back in some areas. Some areas are still brimming with deer, and need to be further reduced, but they are making strides towards a better enviromentally and socially balanced deer herd. Bucks have also shown some improvement, yet still very minor, due to a lack of restrictions.

Considering that NJ comes under attack from anti hunters very often, more often that most states probably. Our management plan has to take into consideration the angle from which they can attack us. Socially balanced deer herds are vital to the future of hunting in this state, and others. Therefore it is safe to say, that if NJ's fish and wildlife division thought to use some form of QDM, it must be the best and most effective way of keeping both hunters, and the general public happy.

While you cant change the minds of everyone, you can propose certain regulations that will help your state enforce a form of QDM. While it may not be perfect, it will see some results. Let these results speak for themselves. Hunters in general will begin to see the benefits of QDM, and will want to see more regulations set in place to further the effect/improvements. Of course not all hunters will see these benefits, and will still oppose it, but its about pleasing the majority, not giving into the minority.

The majority of people (hunters and public) want a smaller herd of larger, healthier deer. The only way to accomplish that is through QDM. So let your Wildlife division know your interest in this program, and point out the wide spread benefits of practicing it.

The hunters that skyhunter spoke about do exist, but most arent educated on these matters well enough to make decisions. Therefore its the serious hunters like all of us, who have to help make the decisions for what is best for our sport. 

So focus on changing the attitudes of serious hunters, and they in turn will help you to pass these ideas onto the councils, divisions, and commissions that have the power to make the necessary changes. If the governing body sees a majority of hunters want change, they will more than likely listen.

While programs like QDM and TDM may leave some hunters freezers empty for a few years. They ultimately protect our future priveledge to hunt, the future health of deer populations, and the future of our fields and forest. 

Have a good one---Matt


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## kyhunter (Sep 18, 2004)

Myk said:


> The reason I shot this deer in central IL is because there are idiots out there passing on small deer and allowing inferior genes to get passed on. This particular inferior gene is causing deer to not have brow tines.
> Why are you culling all the good genes and allowing inferior genes to get passed on? Did you flunk animal husbandry in 4H?
> .


So you are helping the farmer? I would say shooting does will decrease the deer population much quicker than shooting bucks. I have never seen a buck give birth to triplets or a doe go unbred because you shot a 1.5 year old deer.
I was just curious where you were getting your info on idiots passing up inferior gene deer. Dr Kroll has reported that unless you have a high fenced property or over 2000 acres, there is no such thing as a management deer or inferior genes you think you are preventing. You have no affect on the genetic improvement on a herd. A doe is said to have at least 50% of the deers rack potential. Have you not seen the picts of what appeared to be junk racked deer that were 1.5 year old deer that when 4.5 years old were 140+. If it is a trophy to you then that is great. My best friend killed a 115" deer on our lease this past season which was below what our limits are to be killed but the rule is if you shoot a buck you mount it. He was as happy or happier than the other guys in our club that killed bucks scoring 158, 142, 140 and 125-all archery. Last year was a 163, 150 and a 155 missed on film. We killed about 30 does as well. but that is why we have so many big deer too. 
Since we have started increasing the doe harvest its like we have seen the bucks stay around. We have also intentionally killed every doe we have had the opportunity to kill that has had a button buck with it. I firmly believe this has been the difference as to why we are seeing 3.5 and older bucks now vs. years ago seeing 1.5 to 2.5 yr olds then they dissappeared, natural dispersion. I think our results speak for themselves for 1500 acres in KY.
Personally on the small buck issue, if its a trophy to you then I am as happy for you as someone with a booney, no question. If you kill 3 basket racked deer instead of does just because its a buck, I dont think that is best for growing trophy deer and doe meat would taste better. So it doesnt make sense to me.


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## TreeJumper (Apr 21, 2003)

buck-i said:


> i dont mind being called an average deer hunter.i fit in some of skyhunters examples of what average deer hunters are.
> i am though a real outdoorsman. right know its sandbass season next its turkey and crappie then its all about catfishing for me, see i cant spend that 365 days that you real deer hunters claim to spend.
> so call me the average deer hunter no harm done here my 5 boys see what kind of hunter and outdoorsman i am they eat the proof of our success in the great outdoors be it fish ,turkey deer.
> this average hunter still gets excited seeing a doe or buck.guess the real hunter dont.
> ...



Very well said,I could not agree more.......... :thumbs_up


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

buck-i said:


> i'm buck-i and i'm an average hunter.


 I do not think you or anyone else on this site fit into that catagory. We are bowhunters and I was talking about the "opening day" gunhunter who represent the majority.

I thought the message was clear enough and I did not mean to offend anybody with that post. I apologize if I did. Just trying to illustrate what we're up against. I guess I mistakenly drew lines between us. Again, not my intent; i'm sorry ! :sad: 

HUNT SAFE !!!! . . .


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

skyhunter said:


> I do not think you or anyone else on this site fit into that catagory. We are bowhunters and I was talking about the "opening day" gunhunter who represent the majority.
> 
> I thought the message was clear enough and I did not mean to offend anybody with that post. I apologize if I did. Just trying to illustrate what we're up against. I guess I mistakenly drew lines between us. Again, not my intent; i'm sorry ! :sad:
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!!! . . .


Skyhunter, I havent seen you try to offend anyone on this post yet, and Im positive you werent trying to with that post either. However, even those hunters that you describe are still hunters. We ALL have to stop generalizing, meat hunter, trophy hunter, average hunter, superior hunter.....who gives a darn? Its not just you, many more are guilty, some meaning more harm than others.

If we continue to separate ourselves into different categories, than we will eventually be ripped apart by the Antis. Fighting between the different "groups" isnt going to help us. Therefore, we have to try and eliminate these "groups" and unite as CARETAKERS of the wildplaces and wildlife.

As the world becomes more and more politically correct, deer "hunting" is having to become deer "management". 

The days of old are gone, or fading away. If we dont change our sport to look better in the light of the public eye. Than our sport will be gone, its already fading away in some regions.

I know Im just repeating myself on alot of these points, but they bear repeating. Some people here, who are more serious hunters, still arent seeing it, or choose not to read it. 

People like Cornfed and I push for QDM, admittedly for larger antlers in most cases, but we also do it because we love and respect the animals, and the sport. You'll see what I mean in a second. Keep reading 

QDM, whether it is strictly enforced or loosely incorporated, is becoming more and more important for our future.

The general public doesnt really care how big the antlers are, but they do care about their Million dollar manicured lawn, or their new bushes that are being destroyed, or the $50,000 car that blew to pieces when it hit a deer.

The only way to please that "public" and get deer numbers to socially-acceptable numbers (which is below carrying capacity in most areas) is by practicing QDM. (Quality Deer Management)

So why go against it? It not only preserves our sport by satisfying the publics needs, and by proving to antis we arent just blood thirsty killers. It also preserves the habitat, deer pop. and improves the health of all wildlife.

The upsides far outweigh the downsides, for hunters overall satisfaction as well. After a few years of proper QDM, hunters will notice that they see an abundance and larger variety of wildlife. All deer will become larger and healthier, habitat will regenerate in over-browsed areas. Bucks will survive an extra year or two, reaching their genetic and nutritional potential, sporting antlers larger than what is normally seen in the area. They may not be the alfalfa eating brutes from the midwest, but even in an area with poor nutrition, bucks will grow considerably larger racks in their third years and beyond. Their body has slowed in growth by the third year, and more of their "energy" goes into growing their antlers. Doe's will be thinned to provide a better gender balance, causing breeding to become more acute and noticable. In other words, the rut will become more frenzied than youve seen before. Calling and scents will work more readily because of this. Habitat will also bounce back due to the reduction of female deer, which in turn, causes the health of the remaining deer to rise. Its all part of a circle, a circle rolling towards a better future. 

Tell me what hunter doesnt want to see larger, healthier deer, and know that through this management, we are more protected from antis than ever before.
Ensuring the future of hunting.

Push for QDM guys and gals!!! It may mean your future of hunting.

---Matt


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

I had decided to bail out of this discussion before because it was getting kinda nasty, and people seemed to be butting heads instead of putting their heads together constructively. 

But, I think buck-i's post brings up a good point. I can identify with buck-i, and cornfed/josh ect. I have been both of them. When I first got out of the service, hunting was life to me. When I say I was in the woods 365 days a year, it's only a slight exaggeration...it was probably more like 330, no kidding. I lived for it, I was single, had no house or yard chores to do, and I was consumed by hunting whitetails, and hunting big whitetails. In NJ, that takes considerable effort because they are few and far between. 

I had over 50 portable stands, over a dozen different properties to hang them on, and spent 6 days a week in the woods for some part of the day. I kept meticulous journals, first handwritten, then when home computers came along, I logged eveything on the computer. For about 11 years, I spent over 300 days a year (for four of those years it was over 335 days, according to my logs) in the woods, scouting, trimming entrance trails and stands, hanging new stands, hanging and sitting observation stands, videoing scouting and hunting trips, etc.. My dates in the summer consisted of glassing fields and "going out" to sporting goods stores. 

I had a bow, a back-up bow, and a back-up to the back-up bow. I experimented with everything. I've tried just about every type of deer call sold, and found scents to be a waste of time. Rattling worked about 3 times in 5 years, so I don't do that anymore. Everything I bought was hunting related. I wore the same pair of sneakers for 7 years, but bought new hunting boots every year. Same for clothes, new camo outfits every year, all types and brands. I completely forgot about fishing, small game hunting, or anything but deer hunting. I was completely consumed, and I'm sure as dedicated as anyone here ever has been or will be. I hunted a minimum of 5 days a week, and scouted on Sundays (no Sunday hunting in NJ).

I enjoyed what I was doing, but it was hard work with little reward, big bucks are just not that common. A 2.5 or 3.5 yr old was the best you could expect most years. I had the luxury to do that because I was single, and didn't get married until I was 37 years old. After that, things changed a little. 

My wife is great about it, she doesn't complain at all about the time I spend hunting. However, I found myself wanting to do different things. Now, with two kids, hunting is still very important (my wife still wonders why I need 45 stands when I only have one backside. :teeth: ) but so are other things. I went out and bought some new fishing gear because my 10 and 7 year old love to fish, as does the wife. Instead of spending all my free time sloshing through swamps and busting thickets, I take walks with the wife and kids. I now hunt closer to field edges where the kids can come along, rather than deep in the swamps and briar tangles where the big deer are. I still keep journals, but now there are pages of fishing with the kids, turkey hunting with my brother, and "scouting" walks with the wife. 

Last year, I had more fun in the outdoors than I have had in many, many seasons. It included fishing trips with the kids, turkey hunting, a few small game trips with my 10 yr old, and still lots of deer hunting, not trophy hunting, just deer hunting. I took 7 deer with my bow and one with my Muzzleloader, 6 does and 2 bucks. One was a good 2.5 yr old 10-point with four broken tines so he was actually a six. The other was a decent 8-point, looked like a 2.5 when I shot him, but after examining his jaw, I think he was a yearling. When I came to that conclusion, I felt a slight twinge of angst, but thank God it went away quick when my kids were bursting with excitment seeing that deer in the back of my truck. I also passed up alot of bucks, including several 2.5 yr olds. 

I had a great season, and to top it off, on my last hunt, I took my 10 year old out and on a very cold day we sat in a ground blind on the edge of an unplanted field. From 12:30pm until 4:30pm we sat in 30 degree temps with a brisk wind. Kyle was doing a great job of sitting still. We watched two small deer in the field for about 90 minutes, and a flock of about 45 turkeys for about 25 minutes. At 4:30pm, another deer joined the two small ones, this one a little bigger. It was about 60 yards away, and after 10 minutes, the pleas from my boy to shoot it got the best of me. I wanted to wait to see if a big buck that I knew lived in the area would come out, there was still 45 minutes of daylight and I knew prime time was coming. But, Kyle wanted us to get that deer. I weighed the rewards of waiting for a big buck that may never show, against watching Kyle on his first blood trail and recovery. I pulled the trigger, the smoke cleared and the deer raced across the field into the woods. We gathered our stuff and went to the spot. The blood trail was a good one, and Kyle followed it across the field and into the woods, right to the button buck; my ninth deer, and maybe my most favorite of the season. Again, I felt a slight twinge at seeing a button buck dead, but watching him stroke it's hyde, check it's feet and face, follow the blood trail and excitedly exclaim "there it is!", that twinge went away. 

My point in this long post...I've been on both sides and realize that we are all deer hunters. We all hunt for different reasons, go through different phases, and have every right to do so. Distinctions like _"meat hunter"_ and _"trophy hunter"_ seem to be coined only to cast negative conotations by the "other" side. Folks, there is no "other" side, we are all deer hunters and lately it seems dividing ourselves between _"meat"_ hunters and _"trophy"_ hunters is more destructive than even the crossbow divisions.

We are all meat hunters, unless you don't eat what you kill, then you're not even a hunter. And we all would like to see and kill a big buck, some just more than others. Some hunters are consumed by the challenge of big bucks, some are consumed by the joy of just plain hunting. Being *"greedy"*, as some have charged on both sides, is not really part of it. *Greedy* in this discussion is a matter of perspective: some think it's greedy of regualr hunters to want to shoot a small buck, some think it's greedy of trophy hunters to force everyone to pass small bucks so there are more big bucks. Neither are right. It's not about greed, it's about peronal preferrences, personal choices and each of us have different reasons for hunting, and therefore different choices and preferrences. Using the word *greedy* is just another way to attack, just like saying _"meat"_ hunter or _"trophy" _ hunter.

I'm a deer hunter...I love to scout them, watch them, photograph them, shoot them, butcher them, cook them and eat them,... sometimes, no matter what size they are. :wink:


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## kyhillbilly74 (Aug 8, 2004)

This is one of the thing that well go on for ever but last year I got the out door chanel and it's all big ranch and big buck's do's any one hunt any more I think hunting is a way of life not a sport if you hunt for big buck's it's your mony and your tag all the pepol on tv show up at a ranch and all the work is done for theme all thay do is shoot it whin the day come's that some one can tell me what deer to shoot and what deer I can not shoot Ill never buy a hunting license agine we live in a free contry and how der some one tell some one what to do at any given time hunting is a right and I hope it stay's that way but the day that hunting become's a sport for me will be the end of my life Iv never look at hunting as a sport and I never will


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Tough call on this one. People should not shoot young bucks because they fear some other hunter will take him, that reason has no merit. 

QDM will always work when applied by the majority of hunters. If a trend or practice could begin to allow the smaller bucks to mature, and take more does when possible in most areas of this country, I think we would see an increase in buck quality in most states. People should not fight this concept because it is a sound one.

With that said, I would never tell another man how and what he can shoot when legally hunting, and would never look down my nose at him or his kill. Persuading him on some possible management practices......maybe.


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## steadyeddie (Apr 27, 2004)

*I agree*



ember said:


> Tough call on this one. People should not shoot young bucks because they fear some other hunter will take him, that reason has no merit.
> 
> QDM will always work when applied by the majority of hunters. If a trend or practice could begin to allow the smaller bucks to mature, and take more does when possible in most areas of this country, I think we would see an increase in buck quality in most states. People should not fight this concept because it is a sound one.
> 
> With that said, I would never tell another man how and what he can shoot when legally hunting, and would never look down my nose at him or his kill. Persuading him on some possible management practices......maybe.


Would this be like going fishing and throwing the bigger fish back so some one could catch it again when it is bigger, but still take some of the smaller fish out. Like take some does out, but which one do we take, and who knows which one carries the genetics for the monster buck we want. boy does this get confusing, and in Mo we have different counties that you must have four on one side to take it. What happens if we shoot all the mature bucks, and what happens to the herd. Still is confusing. So we go to uncle joes and shoot a doe and now she can not reproduce to help out the farm population. 
QDM take a doe and earn a buck, but what if we hardly ever see a doe or a deer on our land. What if we like to eat deer meat and we do not see a deer we can shoot.


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Wow, DV1 great post! You really had it bad. I was thinking of how much time I have put into hunting over the years and letting many things pass me by. Children have a way of changing things don't they. Next year I will probably be faced with shooting a young buck while with my oldest son (7). Hopefully a doe will please him but who knows maybe big boy will give him a chance.
Below is a 3 1/2 year old I regretted shooting but my son had a big time with it.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*well...*

it is a good point steadyeddie, and i have heard it before, but you cannot really categorize deer and fish. here's why... fish produce in such mass quantities that when one fish from a hatch is 3lbs, then about 50 more are. and this is per parent. with deer, two is about as many fawns that one doe can have at one time(barring a miracle) and if you take some out of the heard it is a lot harder to replace them than if you keep a few fish. i don't want you to think i am being a smarta**, but just so people won't read too much into the fish deal i thought i would say that.
i feel that if we are patient, the MDC will do something more productive than point restrictions. i am still not sure why we have just a few units practicing this method. i always thought it was the MISSOURI Department of Conservation, and not the UNIT 4 Department of Conservation so i am a little skeptical aobut their methods and their thinking. i just think they wanted to do what the dedicated hunters that showed up at every pointless meeting didn't want them to do. but that is another topic.
what i really wanted to say is that the hunters that are for trophy management and growing bigger, more mature bucks are really striving to do that and they have good intentions. the other hunters that are saying that this method is stupid and that they are just helping the farmers are just looking for a good argument so they can call us stupid and say that we want to become more of a man to prove to our buddies that we are superior. that isn't true. 
i think what every trophy hunter on here is wanting to say is that it is a truly rewarding feeling when you harvest a big mature buck that you have hunted for and passed on other bucks for so you can meet that goal you have set. and naturally we don't understand why everyone don't feel that way about it. but isn't that our opinion. we are not calling MYK a stupid, egotistical, caveman that has a low self esteem so he has to kill a little buck to prove that they have the most tender meat. (just an example MYK no harm meant.) so those of you who disagree with CORNFED, JOSH, ME and many others, just remember that our idea of success is when someone looks at CORNFEDS wall and says HOLY COW those are huge and not look in his freezer and say HOLY COW nice loins!!! :wink:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Nice post dan, we should hunt together sometime. :beer: :beer:


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*yah...*

i would like that. :shade:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Me neither


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

*Because they taste better than peanut butter & jelly*

I passed on one 8 pt that would score around 110 in favor of waiting on a bigger buck. I did see a couple big boys but no good shot ops. I also had a little 8 pt at point blank range while he sniffed my tree steps...I passed on him also. I waited to shoot a doe because I hoped she would lure in a buck (it was Nov 15th)....Now I have an empty freezer 'til this Fall.  

I guess the answer would be because small bucks taste better than PB&J.
This Fall I will break in my new Outback on a doe on Opening Day and fill the freezer then I'll wait for the "BIG BOYS".


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Smoke, I thought you were all for QDM and Antler restrictions man????

I do hear you on the competing though.....but there is no competition.....its quite obvious that my D!ck is bigger than ALL of your............arm hairs combined!


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## steadyeddie (Apr 27, 2004)

*Political correctness*

I know we really do not like what we have to watch what we say and do about hunting. I have taught Mo. Hunter Ed for 20 twenty years and it the conversations that hunters have around non-hunters but they are not against hunting. We have to remember that they are the ones who vote and decide whether you or I get to hunt and have concealed weapons and right to bear arms. So I am concerned about anti's getting us going against each other, and anything else to seperate us and to pull the non-hunting public toward the left, so join the NRA and other organization to help our causes and to show we care about wildlife and the environment. EAch day we fight an uphill battle to keep our rights.......so if you want to lose them just sit back and do nothing. Steady


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

We beat this one to death, lets just let it go.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

*no kidding...*

when "why do people shoot such small bucks" turns into info about the NRA we have milked her for all she is worth


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## Chief P (Dec 1, 2003)

Food and the hunt. Some people don't hunt for the racks, they hunt the meat. First meat that walks into range.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Matty-NJ said:


> Smoke, I thought you were all for QDM and Antler restrictions man????
> 
> I do hear you on the competing though.....but there is no competition.....its quite obvious that my D!ck is bigger than ALL of your............arm hairs combined!



Matty seems as though my post was deleted. Mods abusing there powers i suppose. OIr i hit a sore spot where someone realized that i uncovered the truth behind it all.

Matty i am for QDM and i let alot of young spikes walk. But in the end no hunter should be attacked regardless of what they shoot. It belittles the deer and to any non hunter readind it makes it seem as though if its not big its worthless.

Again...what happened to my post? Hmm. Damn babies


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Shadow,

I hear ya....I know what you mean. I would never belittle another hunter for an animal they take legally and ethically. I know how hard taking an animal can be. I just hope more and more guys can start letting the 1.5, and even some 2.5 year old bucks walk. 

Im not trying to force anyone to do it though, but I do hope they see the benefits and change their attitudes.

I know you can see the benefits. As you get a few bucks under your belt, theres nothing wrong with "upping the bar". Of course you hunt a pretty small private piece from what I understand. So if you want to further up the bar, your going to have to convince the surrounding property owners to do the same. You may see small results if you do it yourself, but like I said, you need to get the other guys involved. I know you take your share of does per season and Ive seen some of the bucks coming from your property. They are nice, and all of them showed some GREAT potential. If you can convince your neighbors of all those benefits, you're gonna have some BIG BIG bucks running around. :thumbs_up 

Before you approach them though, you should compile a list of reasons to change their hunting approach. Try to get a figure of how many does need to be taken per season and ask them how many does they think they would need. This way you can split the doe harvest equally amongst each other. Give them an idea of the size bucks your looking to pass, and give them an idea of how big they could be with one more year of body and antler growth. Ask them if theyd be willing to pass those deer too. Make sure they realize that if you're ALL doing it, the goals are reached much faster. Within 1 or 2 years, you should be seeing MUCH MUCH larger bucks. 


Hope you can get the neighbors involved, and if you need more info on how to persuade them. Visit the QDM website. Im pretty sure its www.qdma.com

By the way, this isnt just for smoke....This is for anyone who hunts small land, and wants to try and get the neighbors involved in QDM.

Have a good one---Matt


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## AJ008 (Nov 20, 2002)

BECAUSE YOU CANT EAT ANTLERS ANYWAYS SO WHATS IT MATTER AS LONG AS THE DEER HAS A BIG BODY??? Plus any animal ethicly shot with a bow or rifle in a trophy in my book.
Yeah sure i'll hold out for the big one but if it get down to crunch time i have no problem with shooting younger deer and does, just as long as i can have meat for thet next year.


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## Larry Rooks (Jan 25, 2003)

You have hunters and you have killers, will always be that way. To me there is a big difference in the HUNTER and the KILLER. The Hunter will do his/her homework and spend lots of time scouting (all year) and find the areas that big bucks live in and frequent. The HUNTER will let the young bcuks walk and take only a mature animal. For meat, the HUNTER will take a Doe or two and fill up the freezer. The KILLER will spend very little time scouting or doing anything for that matter and kill EVERYTHING that walks by, period. The KILLER, that takes everything he/she can and drive around town showing off
five or six dead deer in the bakc of the truck at one time, and of course bragging about it, are the ones that give us all a bad name :thumbs_do but do they care, heck no. All they want is to kill something and show it off by the numbers. You will be surprsed at howm many kill that 6 month old deer just to show it off and end up dumping it cause he drove all ovet town showing it off and letting it ruin :thumbs_do Take whay you need and no more :thumbs_up


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## Mark Warner (May 30, 2003)

For those MI hunters out there will understand were I am coming from. Until you hunt in michigan you will never understand. I shoot the first deer that I see. That is how bad it is in MI if you do not then you might not see another deer the rest of the season. I am talking I can go three months and hunt all over the state( I am hunting public land) and not see a deer. Lucky last year I missed a great big 4 pt ( I mean tall). But the statistics were that MI had the most registered bow hunters east of the Mississippi I do not no if that is still true but it was in the mid 90's. That is how much hunting pressure we have in MI. 

So to answer your question in MI if you do not shoot the first deer you see. You may not get meat for the freezer. Because here in MI we hunt deer not trophy hunt deer. Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut. 

mwarner


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

*In Agreement with Fulldraw09*

I agree with Fulldraw09.
I have had the opportunity to hunt in Illinois 2 times and found that I would love to live there and hunt there all the time. He is right that they have lots of shooter bucks. I do not believe if Illinois has any antler restrictions. In fact, I believe that they do not. The people there seem to undertand that bucks that are passed up and left to grow will be bigger. Common Sense!
Here is the problemwe have in PA! Not every person has the let em go and let em grow mentality. We have over 1 million hunters in the woods during rifle season alone. Also we have dicriminating antler regulations that allow people to shoot the young bucks. I am all for antler restrictions as long as they are the same for everyone! People still have the frame of mine that if I do not shoot his buck, someone else will so why let it pass. This is horrible! Also in PA we over hunt our deer. Early season starts for archery in October then we have a junior senior rifle hunt during that same time and muzzleloader. Deer are hunted up until January. To long of a season. Unlike Illinois, we have a rifle season where people massacre anything that moves. There seems to be little respect for the animals. To many doe tags in the wrong areas and few deer in other areas. Some areas have many deer and people can not hunt those areas. Between Pa and Illinois there is a total different mind set for hunting. In the area we hunt we are joining together with people who hunt boardering properties to practice quality deer management. We are going to set up rules to help the bucks get bigger and we are going to harvest does to keep the herd in check. We are hoping to see bigger bucks in the next few years. We are going to plant food plots and collect data on the deer we harvest. We are going to do anything we can to keep trespassers off of the property. It would be a whole lot easier if we had more support from the Game Commission. If everyone works together we can get the slob hunters out of PA. :beer:


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Kighty7 said:


> In the area we hunt we are joining together with people who hunt boardering properties to practice quality deer management. We are going to set up rules to help the bucks get bigger and we are going to harvest does to keep the herd in check. We are hoping to see bigger bucks in the next few years. We are going to plant food plots and collect data on the deer we harvest. We are going to do anything we can to keep trespassers off of the property. :


I appluad your efforts and wish you the best of luck! THAT is what it is ALL about brother! :thumbs_up  It's about educating other hunters and getting them to take a more responible role as sportsman.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I do want to point out that I don't fully support antler restrictions. Again, I believe the KEY is educating hunters to indentifying immature animals. I realize that in many cases it has been proven that spikes and forkies can grow into tremendous trophies with nutrition and age HOWEVER it makes NO sense to me to allow the shooting of the possibly genetically superior animals that sport 8+ point racks as yearlings??? I know I don't want ANYBODY killing these promising young animals on my property. Look at the potential, notice the split brow or how about that small droptine starting on the right beam of one of my bucks? I shudder to think of someone killing these deer and leaving me a spike and forkie in their place.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Thats a GREAT point cornfed!

While I agree with it WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I actually feel the need for AR in areas around me. I understand the downside of it is that people can still harvest young "prospects" like the deer you posted above. But, until I can find a way to change the attitudes of public land hunters in my area, all I can do is push for antler restrictions. Because while its not the perfect solution. It does provide some bucks protection. Whereas our current regs, and attitude around here is more of....any buck is a dead buck, because I have six buck tags in my pocket! Thats sad, and the wrong attitude. With AR in place for a year or two, they may see results, and lifting the AR wouldnt be a problem, and attitudes would change easier. HOPEFULLY! Know what Im saying?

Well, I gotta run....but Im gonna email you later about this Cornfed....cause I want to get some opinions and ideas from you. OK? 

People, listen to this man, HE KNOWS!!!!!!


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## terrym (Feb 25, 2005)

perchjerker said:


> come to Alabama,plenty of free public land,liberal limit.
> Two deer per day,only one buck per day. We need help killing does.Please come here to fill your freezers,your mothers freezer,your sisters freezer,your grand mothers freezer........................................................................................


You Guys really don't know how good you have it. Here in Ontario we are allowed 1 buck per year and "if" drawn by lottery can take 1 doe INSTEAD of the buck! I take the first legal deer I see as in some cases its the only deer I will see in a week of hard hunting. I consider any archery deer kill a trophy. The good thing is we do have moose and bear but they are no where as plentiful as your southern deer. I would love to hunt Alabama, know any good outfitters?


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## breakaleg (Feb 9, 2005)

*Why do people shoot small bucks*

Because I didn't see a big one to shoot. Only had 1 doe all year in bow range and she's in the freezer. So to all you guys that say don't shoot small bucks and shoot the does. Just maybe the only deer they are getting in range are small bucks and you really like to eat deer meat.In other words little bucks eat better than no deer at all.I don't like to buy beef.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Matty,

Quit kissin. Point taken.


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## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

I aint kissin' his arse.

I just respect his knowledge on this matter a lot. Ive been working with him to get ideas to help better NJ's herd. 

May seem like arse kissing.....but its just respect. If I were kissin', thered be more to it, and Id be looking for him to invite me out there.

Then again, I may be subconcsiously doing that! 

Corn, Im gonna send you an audio tape to listen to while your going to sleep! Ok bud?

Dont worry if it sounds like Im telling you to take me hunting, with you, at your expense....its just some really good songs I recorded. Opposed to what some will tell you, there is NO subliminal messages. Oh but after the third day of listening to it....flip it over and play it backwards!


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## bama1dc (Apr 20, 2009)

*Alabama checks these numbers out*

Here in Al we have the same problems until a couple of years ago it was legal to take a buck a day from the middle of october trough the end of january. They have now put a 3 buck limit of which one must have four points on one side. This may help some but people are still shooting more bucks than there are allowed, but i guess its beter than it was. I wish u only could shoot one buck after which the other two had to be a certain width or age ect. I debate this with a lot of people with varying opions but the one i here a lot is " if don't shoot someone else will" wow what a wonderful argument. The same hunters who say that will let 20 doe walk and then shoot the first spike that walks by. Oh yeh these r the same people who say things like, those places on tv thats not hunting, theres no deer around here like that, or must be nice to hunt places with big deer. Balance is always the key to everything but in places like Al when there are does running everywhere and u have a 3 1/2 month season some people just dont get it. The biggest thing u need to have quality bucks is age, most any buck who reaches 3-4 yrs of age with decent nutrition, and genetics would be a great deer. The property i hunt most often is public land that produces some big deer but n o7-08 season 33 bucks 0.5yrs was killed46 1.5yrs, 36 2.5yrs, 18 3.5 or older. The thing that bugs me the most is if you let these deer walk there is plenty of does to harvest plus you will still be able to harvest bucks they will just be older and bigger not fewer!


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## Hunter36 (May 31, 2007)

They shoot them because they were deer hunting and that deer walked in range. I believe in letting people shoot whatever deer they want to as long as it is legal obviously. I hate antler restrictions and all that crap!

However, I do pass on smaller and young deer. But, a lot of people go deer hunting to shoot a deer and don't have a reason to care about antler size. And, to tell you the truth I would enjoy the hunt and the kill just the same if all I had to shoot were basket rackers. I hate the idea of the state game and fish and dnr turning into antler growers. Let me hunt a healthy well maintained herd population wise and that's fine.


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## bigrackHack (Jun 11, 2004)

4 year old thread?


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## bama1dc (Apr 20, 2009)

*Not looking for sympothy!*



1bigtaco said:


> HA! Thanks for the ammo buddy! Guess what? I have hunted public land here in Alabama 20+ times this year....Guess how many bucks i have seen??? ZEROOOOO. You expect me to feel sorry for your b/c you cant see 180" bucks every day? *oh theres a tear* Illinois isnt all it's cracked up to be? ROTFLMAO


Just pointing out that the reason Al does'nt have quality deer is there is way to many youg bucks shot! And in a state that in nearly every county is over run with does. Thats why u did'nt see any bucks theres not many! I'am not looking for a trophy program just a quality deer program. I dont wont or think a state like Al needs a trophy only program. I no people who will shoot a spike one week and the next week shoot a year old fork horn and then complain that they never see any quality animals. I certainly dont beleive letting a buck reach 2 1/2 years old is crazy. Like i poimted out earlier 79 bucks off the public land i hunt were 1 1/2yrs and under.


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## Xiisign (Jan 23, 2008)

Not that I would not appreciate a Big Buck giving me a shot but I hunt to fill the freezer and until the State regs change and say I have to let those small basket racks pass I will consider them all trophies taken with a Bow.


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## bama1dc (Apr 20, 2009)

*I agree partly!*



Hunter36 said:


> They shoot them because they were deer hunting and that deer walked in range. I believe in letting people shoot whatever deer they want to as long as it is legal obviously. I hate antler restrictions and all that crap!
> 
> However, I do pass on smaller and young deer. But, a lot of people go deer hunting to shoot a deer and don't have a reason to care about antler size. And, to tell you the truth I would enjoy the hunt and the kill just the same if all I had to shoot were basket rackers. I hate the idea of the state game and fish and dnr turning into antler growers. Let me hunt a healthy well maintained herd population wise and that's fine.


I do not like haveing rules that r not based on sound conservation. I also no that a balanced healty natural deer herd is a whole lot closer to 1 to 1 than 10-20 to 1. I think the trophy is in the eye of the hunter also but, if your after meat in Al you will have no problem finding it in the form of doe young or old.


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## txcookie (Feb 17, 2007)

Ya know they say that there arent stupid questions but this makes me think other wise!



When I read the title I figured the guy was from the midwest probably IA, or IL and wouldnt ya know its IL!


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## bwlacy (Mar 28, 2009)

I hunt mostly around home in Michigan. I hunt over 2000 acres of farmland that only has 5 guys bowhunting it. We have tried QDM for the last 6 years, also the state put in a 4 point on one side rule for your second buck a few years back. We shoot a ton of does, more than we can eat, so we give them away.

Honestly since we have done this, and the state has the 4 point rule, our bucks are smaller!!! I've read countless studies about food, age, and nutrition, let bucks walk for 6 years, put in food plots, shot does continually, and for what. We can't control the neighbors, the state won't change the law, and the deer don't stay on just our property. With everyone killing the small 8's that the state allows they are taking out the good genes. IMO.

So this next year we are back to do whatever is legal. No more QDM, no more food plots, shoot as many does as you want and kill whatever buck you want. It really doesn't matter.

Most of Michigan is small parcels that get hunted hard and unless the state changed alot of laws we will never have a normal deer herd with any age structure. 

Anybody from out of state that wonders why we shoot small bucks, come hunt here for a whole season and you'll understand. I hunt in Montcalm county, which is pretty good deer habitat. I saw more big bucks in one week in Iowa, than in 25 years of bowhunting around home.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Because they are *deer hunters* and small bucks are legal deer.....


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## boarman1 (Jul 20, 2008)

*small bucks*

It would be someone from Illinois that started this post. Well for one most guys dont live in a big buck state . You cant manage deer in our area. The Tracts of land are small and most of the people in the area will shoot anything with antlers. So its a waste of time to not shoot a small buck. Personally I have not shot a buck in 5 or 6 years here but still .If you pass a okay buck for our area more than likely it will get shot by someone. I have shot tons of small bucks and really like to pass most of them and we can shoot 12 does a year in my state but its not getting any better.Most archery hunters are new or either they have not shot alot of bucks with there bow so I think its okay for them to shoot what ever they are happy with. Its not like we all have access to farms that produce 140Plus size bucks. If your really lucky you might see a buck that would score 120 from where Im at. Its like seeing a 190 inch deer in Illinois. I enjoy buying hunting DVD's because that is the only way I can see deer that big. Unless I book a hunt but with the economy like it is I cant do that right now. Im not trying to sound harsh at all to the gentleman that started this post. I understand your concern with this situation but I have hunted alot of states with huge deer and it wouldnt make since to me if I lived in one of those big buck states and see guys post pictures of small deer. But put your self in our shoes. Imagine that you have not see any or many decent bucks in your hunting career . Let say a buck that would score 120inches. Most deer you see are 6 points or 4 points. And then a 8 point shows up you get really excited about it and you shoot it. Well it scores 115 inches. that is a really great deer for the area. That is typical of how guys around my area does it. Yeah it really sucks not to be able to see big deer. But most of the time all we see is Doe's and that is what I shoot.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Small buck shooting*

There are several points that need to be made. 

1. Not every hunter is a trophy hunter.
2. Not every state manages their deer herd for quality.
3. Not every hunter has the time that is needed to successfully harvest a larger animal.
4. Each person has their own definition of what a smaller buck is. If you've only killed a spike a basket eight pointer is a trophy.Some hunters have never taken a deer.

That being said, the game managers in each state needs to be proactive in managing it's deer herd. I like the idea of a 1 buck limit and heavy penalties for those that are caught exceeding that limit. A substantial reward should be paid for tipsters that provide information to officials that leads to a conviction of those that feel the need to exceed the limit. The deer herd numbers could be adjusted with the doe harvest. No one in their right mind needs to kill 6-7 small 1.5 year old bucks which was the case here in W.Va just a couple of years back. I feel that it is important not to discourage people from taking an animal for meat for the freezer. 

It's simple; a one buck limit regardless of harvest equipment, Heavy penalties for law breakers, adjust target herd size with the doe harvest. Everyone is happy. You get to kill a buck and fill the freezer up with meat with doe.


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

why would you care what other people shoot?


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## Tradchef (Oct 30, 2004)

Go hunt Vermont and New Hampshire and let me know your thoughs on shooting just a smaller buck or a deer for that matter. When I was just starting out you were lucky just to see a deer or two the whole season long(bow, gun, blackpowder) It has gotten better now but it's still tough. I guess I could make the case of why do guys have to always trophy hunt and hold out for big bucks?? If that's what you're in to so be it. Don't tell someone who just enjoys the hunt what they can and can't do. I'm a meat hunter and would have no problem shooting a basket racked 10 or an 8. I will almost always shoot doe before that given the opportunity though. I have killed some real good bucks and will continue to do so god willing, but I love to hunt and if hunting means killing a small buck or two now and then so be it!!


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## SteveIndiana (Sep 22, 2007)

*2005*

Dang, Bama

Did you realize that the post before yours was from 2005?

hate to bump this up again but guys........



> "beauty is in the eye of the bowholder"


(***thanks for the "pop" holder. Scottie.***)



> One man's trash is another man's treasure





> One man's meat is another man's trophy


Praise the Lord we all dont hunt for the same reason.......and because we all hunt!

SURE, I want a wallhanger and do my best to get one but Im not ashamed of any buck I humanely shoot within the methods I allow myself nor disappointed in the size, but know two guys who shoot 135 class and UP annually (in the same County)......and are never happy.

I'm the winner in that comparison IMHO

No offense to anyone but the charcoal suits, the camo blinds, the tree stands,the archery equipment capable (I'm not) of 60 yrd shots (whole other thread on that subject so .....comment there?),the buck scents /cover scents, the decoys, the deer calls have all be manufactured to increase your odds (and *reduce* the deer's!!)...........and do ONE H*** of a job..........too good IMO.

Simply put, we are now ABLE to get shots at a much larger number of deer , and therefore also more and bigger bucks, because of the population explosion and the manufactured products that help us go undetected.

Less challenge in the process has increased a need for another challenge and the score of the deer is ABOUT the only one left. The manufacuturers are selling chemicals to feed the deer to reduce that challenge to.

Not..repeat NOT saying anything is _wrong _with that but ........erase some if not all of the "advantages" you may use to greatly reduce the deer's natural defenses of sight and sound............and watch how your trophy level increases (HAPPILY) when your tag is filled with a "lesser" buck.

Very few here, if any, will give that suggestion a try......but I only ask you to re-read it and think about how LESS exciting your deer hunting is now compared to your first years doing so. Give it some thought.

and please..........don't judge your deer by your neighbor's any more than you would your wife to his. If you do, you will not only be miserable, you will be doing it to yourself.

NOT looking for an arguement here, and I wont reply to one. I only hope that someone reading this will open their minds a bit on the subject.

A very good friend of mine and one of the BEST deer hunters I've ever known is what I would say is a bit of a extremist on the subject. His comment on the subject is that


> "we are simply being offered items to buy that makes it easier and easier......no longer is bowhunting the challenging, close range sport we grew up with"


.......unless YOU choose to make it one for you.:thumbs_up

Only offered as information to put in your "data bank" to let it rattle around and come out with or without something that will help you fulfill the satisfaction, you seek, from bowhunting.

"The Challenge" has always been the big "draw" to bowhunting.........do you still feel it?

Steve


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## Dan7168 (Apr 20, 2009)

You obviously don't live in NY or you would not even be asking this question. If I lived in Illinois or any of the "Big" buck states I would pass on many of the deer that that I would probably hang on my wall hunting and living in NY.


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

bigrackHack said:


> 4 year old thread?


 Or the same argument brought up twice a year?:set1_thinking:


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## moongoose26 (Apr 19, 2009)

Since somebody restarted this thread I might as well chime in. This is about my 4th year hunting. I am originally from Puerto Rico so I am sure you all know there aint much to hunt over there. I ahve shot 2 bucks so far my first one was a small young 7 pt but was the first time I had seen "horns". I took himand have him proudly on my wall. My second deer was last year, it looked huge to me being a rookie lol, he scores about 110 which is small but my biggest one to date. I agree in part with letting them walk and grow but there are places where people will shoot anything so it makes it kinda pointless. I have been trying to let them walk around my property anyways because you never know if he might make it through the season and be a decent one next year. Here is my 2 bucks, not the best looking mounts but still make me proud


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## stainless 2 (Oct 23, 2006)

really? this is a hunters forum like very few others have. while many can have a "if its brown, its down" attitude, it takes us, who have access earlier, and CHOOSE to have a challenge, to have a higher standard even if it hurts our own results...

I dont think it is being "holier than thou" to not shoot a juvenile buck. if you fall into the way of thinking that if you pass on him, another will take him next week, you are putting your first foot on a very slippery slope.

I would suggest that "management" and "ethics" starts on your own front porch.

just because it is legal, does not make it right...just my .02...


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## Buck Liggett (Apr 23, 2009)

I have U'all beat, try hunting blacktails in California, where our archery season opens in July & it's usually a 100 degress or or more! Usually open country which = spot a stalk till You run in to a rattlesnake when You're crawling to get close enough for a shot. 
We have very few doe hunts & are all limited draw, most go to junior hunters via an either-sex tag. Actually all the good areas are draw, with the most coveted tag having only 35 tags issued, 32 to max points holders & 3 going to random. Which I figured statisticly back when We went to points system
it would would take 271 years to draw that tag! Personally I'm not waiting that long just for a rack.
I've always hunted for meat, don't get Me wrong, I like big racks too, but being out hunting is most important part. Filling the freezer is a bonus, so if it's legal I take it, unless it has a tiny body. Here a legal buck has to have a definant fork on the upper 2/3's of an antler & average age of bucks killed are 2-2.5 years. Another thing I just spent $210 on license & deer tags only for My 15 year old daughter and Myself!

BTW,
I'm new here so :icon_salut:


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## buckmark23 (Jul 1, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


I didn't read the entire thread BUT...
Not everyone is into PORNHORN. I agree that if you want meat and you have plenty does, then let the bucks walk. What if you only have one or two shots a year and they happen to be on a buck? I'll take the little buck in a heartbeat.


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## aztrophytaker (May 10, 2007)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


Amen Willie, shoot what ever the heck you want and don't give a second of thought to what anyone from anywhere thinks about it.


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## DUCKORBLEED (Dec 17, 2008)

Any deer, or other game taken by bow are trophies.
Shot matters not Size.


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## moosekiller99 (Jul 23, 2006)

I exclusively seek out and shoot small bucks. I love to enrage you pros out there. Seriously, who cares, if it's a legal deer it is the hunter's personal choice whether to kill it or not. If we shouldn't kill these deer, then make it illegal to do so.


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## Mil6161 (Nov 13, 2003)

ChefChivo said:


> Go hunt Vermont and New Hampshire and let me know your thoughs on shooting just a smaller buck or a deer for that matter. When I was just starting out you were lucky just to see a deer or two the whole season long(bow, gun, blackpowder) It has gotten better now but it's still tough. I guess I could make the case of why do guys have to always trophy hunt and hold out for big bucks?? If that's what you're in to so be it. Don't tell someone who just enjoys the hunt what they can and can't do. I'm a meat hunter and would have no problem shooting a basket racked 10 or an 8. I will almost always shoot doe before that given the opportunity though. I have killed some real good bucks and will continue to do so god willing, but I love to hunt and if hunting means killing a small buck or two now and then so be it!!


+2 Took the words right out of my mouth......:tape:


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

Who hasn't taken a small buck?
Because they want to.
Because they can.
Because they're not good enough to take an older wiser buck.
Because they're tied to a tree and frightened to unhook,climb down and *hunt* for a big buck.
Because they're stuck hunting the same unproductive 10/20 acre plot.
Because they've busted butt all season waiting for a bigger buck and finally said screw it.

For whatever reason.

If we don't want people to shoot small bucks we need to lobby with our state fish and game/law makers to impose size/point restrictions.



Some of you boys should feel very fortunate...two deer or even two bucks and all the does you can afford to buy a tag for.....and you still take small bucks....AND ***** about it


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## fishbomb (Jan 22, 2009)

hunting for a wall mount is one thing, filling the freezer is why most small bucks are harvested.


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

.....try hunting/living in a state...a state as rugged as Idaho...where your limited to *one* deer a year and then ask that question.


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## OBAN (Jun 25, 2006)

*deer, any deer will do*

I might be repeating what others have said because I'm too lazy to read all 10 pages of this thread but I did see a Cali guy post and being from Washington state, on the west side we have blacktails too. It took Jim Shockey over 12 years guided and non-guided to harvest a larger buck in the Pacific N.W. I'd like to see all you management guys come over here and hunt your way and not worry about going for years and years without meat in your freezers. Over here a 4 point is what you all call an 8'er and in all of my years hunting here, that's 22 years, I've seen maybe a buck a year average like that taken with all types of weapons combined. Don't forget, you are allowed ONE deer here, whether you gun hunt, archery, whatever. Look up numbers on archery season success rates for bucks only and then narrow those figures down for only 10 point your count. You'll walk away more educated and will have a better understanding of why we in my state choose to take a small buck, a 4 point-8 point by your count being a small buck. And don't forget we don't have game management funds to give back to land acquisition, or feed, or better genes, whatever. We have a general fund that all of our monies generated by hunters and sportsmen goes into. If good ole Christine wants money for a new Alaskan Viaduct, well guess where that money comes out of. If you still feel that spreading your idiotic ideals around about harvesting will have any effect on me or my fellow archers of mine, come on over and hunt with me. I've got access to some of the primer land here and also to the 520 GMU. Pay up your $400 some dollars for out of state tags and I'll be happy to put you on one of our fine 2 or 3 pointers.


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## fishbomb (Jan 22, 2009)

some states do allow the harvest of smaller bucks, and any other deer. I feel any deer taken by bow is a trophy to be proud of. *Kill Them All and Let GOD Sort Them Out!*


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## yoda4x4 (May 11, 2004)

Some of us are not as fortunate as you to be able to hunt such stellar locations. Some of us hunters hunt on public land where you'll be lucky just to see a few buck let alone anything of any decent size.

Of course, any time you're willing to share your property many people including myself would be very interested.

David


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## camoman30 (Aug 26, 2008)

LX_Shooter said:


> Come to Arkansas and say that after you've hunted here a while........


i agree with this guy its tough to get a chance on a mature buck the last 5 years ive let 5,6and,8 points go in early october but by the end of november they got killed by gun hunters and your crossbow hunters who just hunt for meat. dont get me wrong i hunt for meat but i let those bucks go i got a doe but thats not enough meat i need to have atleast to deer in the freezer to last till next season. im not gonna be so conservitive this season them 5 points better watch out...


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## GeekDeer (Mar 14, 2009)

*My Avatar*

So you're saying that the deer in my avatar pic would be one you'd let go for next year? I seen the trail cams for 2 years. He was always a fork, just kept getting taller. My buddies were out to get him because he was a genetic freak. We try to thin deer out like that where I live. 

Unfortunately he was found last year laying over a log dead. Not from a hunter but something else. Tried to get the Game & Parks to test it but they said the carcass was not fresh enough. 

My point being that sometimes there are bucks that will never develope great racks. They might end up being a small 5x5 or a tall 3x3 at peak maturity.


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## goblism (Apr 12, 2007)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


my area very few bucks grow past that basket buck 8 point range. havn't shot a buck in 3 years waiting for a bigger one and have taken a doe. Out in SD I saw a basket buck and let the arrow fly, won't be hunting here for long and it is unbelievable how many big bucks are out here to start with.


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## cowboy6532 (Apr 30, 2009)

if you dont shoot it, the next guy will

thats how a lot of guys think, especially hunting on state land

in wisconsin last season i shot a 6 pointer on the last day of the season 
it was the biggest buck i saw and i was not going to go home empty handed after spending 160 dollars on a out of state hunting lisense


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

To answer your ?......some of us live and hunt in the real world.I've hunted public land here for 35yrs and have taken some good bucks ( 120/130 ) but more times than not,a basket rack is what i'm going to see.Deer taste the same no matter what size rack they have and i don't hunt'em to brag....i hunt'em to eat and enjoy hunting them.Now when someone starts paying for my tag and gas....thats another story.


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## cowboy6532 (Apr 30, 2009)

oh yeah and its total bull **** that i have to pay 160 dollars for a out of state lisense, cuz we pay taxes on 500 acres of land there just like any ****in resident..


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## gwmican (Mar 27, 2004)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


AMEN! Here is a little story, my Brother in Law was hunting on a nice lease here in South Texas. There were some really nice deer on this place, but the potential for it to turn into something really nice was there. He had the lease two years, each year he passed on some really nice bucks, but he was expecting to have the lease for a number of years so why not let the bucks get really huge. He was exceptional in taking care of the lease, did everything right, never made the landowner upset or mad. The spring of the third year came along, and the landowner told him if he wanted to stay on the lease, he would have to come up with about 3 times as much as what he used to pay for the yearly lease.:mg: He said if he couldn't come up with the money, there were some other clients that wanted the place. He had to let it go, come to find out, the other guys were rich "Hunters" from Houston. So much for letting them grow!


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## Savannahman (Nov 6, 2005)

Because eating tags sucks!!!!!!!!!!! I'm in it for the meat. In my state you can only shoot one deer. So why wait for a BIG buck when food for the family is better suited for me.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

To answer the original ops question .It is because it was the deer that they wanted to kill .It was their hunt ,and they simply do not care what you or any other pretentious ,selfish whinner wants them to shoot .It made them happy end of story .If its not your bag oh well. Go kill a doe that is what you obviously want to do "Its your hunt" Tell everyone how you are waiting for some giant buck That may or may not exsist to step out in front of you in the next 3 yo 5 years .But in the mean while get your handy dandy pocket excuse booklet out "You know the one that has all the reasons why you didn't take the deer you wanted to " you may want it for that special occasion with freinds or at the lodge especially the shop/check station.


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## tyepsu (Jun 9, 2007)

Well, I hunt northcentral Pa and by no means do we have trophy buck. The reason for this is multiple but the primary reason is the age structure of deer. Many hunters say, all I see is basket rack bucks so I shoot what is there. Of course because when every hunter takes that attitude bucks never get old enough to show their true potential. I am all for antler restrictions. It is the job of the game commission to manage deer. That would include a healthy balance of older buck in the population and balancing doe to buck ratios. For those "meat hunters" out there I have two words for you... "Doe Tags." This helps with the doe to buck ratio which in many states like Pa needs to be evened out.


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## kydirtbag (Sep 5, 2007)

I know that there are a lot of different answers out there. I din't read very many but I know what some of them are without doing so. I hunt for food! For those of you that are telling me that I should shoot a does for food...You're right to a point, we need better ratios. That being said. When I go out in the woods I don't get the opportunity to "Place my order at the window". 

If the deer is good eating size, I don't care if it's a sticker or a slicker. My #1 priority is to bring home meat. Once I have 2 or 3 in the freezer then I start waiting and watching.

There are entirely too many deer in the states of Kentucky and Tennessee to care whether or not I should let them walk because of the shape or size of the rack. I'm not in it for the trophy, unless you consider a slab of meat on a plate a trophy.


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## gutjuice (Dec 24, 2006)

Shooting this buck was a mistake ...!!! ..it's a small buck!! (not P&Y) ... however it's relative for everybody..


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## norcalhunter (Apr 22, 2007)

:moviecorn:moviecorn


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## Savannahman (Nov 6, 2005)

How about throwing out this? Most of the horn hunter people on here seam to come from a state that you can harvest many deer. If I had that option I would hold out for a big buck too. If I could shoot a few does or small bucks and then hold out for a monster I would. Now for all the people that live and hunt in these states. Would you still hold out for a big buck if you had only one tag? Meat or horns. Just food for thought.


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

I ate my buck tag last year because I COULD hold out. If I had not had deer in the freezer already there would have been a fork tagged. I was lucky in the fact that there were lots of does to shoot and I got 5. I fill a freezer first. Then I worry about horns.
Funny thing is that during gun season I passed on a deer just to help drag it out ten minutes later. So much for that. And we were hunting for "population control" too.


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## moongoose26 (Apr 19, 2009)

I have only been lucky enough to harvest 2 bucks in the time I have been hunting as I explained in my previous posts. DE is a state not well known for huge deer but I have seen pretty good ones on propertys with the let it grow mindset. I myself plan on doing this in the future. Lucky enough for me does are plentiful around here and I normally have a doe or 2 by the end of the first week so Ican actualy sit back and afford to let little bucks walk. Other states that are not so lucky to have as many tags as we do I cant see how I myself would let anything walk if it meant me not having deer meat in the freezer.


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## boarman1 (Jul 20, 2008)

*thread*

HEY GUYS JUST TO GET YOU ATTENTION. THIS THREAD IS VERY VERY OLD SO I WOULDNT KEEP IT GOING !!!ukey:


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## Bowtoons (Jan 4, 2008)

I think every state should do qdm. But I think it is a no win battle. Lrt the little ones go so they can grow. Mature bucks only please!!! If not shoot a doe. If it's little bones your after go shed hunting in the spring. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

They make better door handels


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

> I think every state should do qdm


Why? So people can spend all their time planting food plots, worrying about what everyone else shoots, pretending to be experts at aging deer, thinking the deer on their property are their own, making competition for leases even greater? Seriously, I hunt for a big, mature deer every fall, but could really care less what the rest of the world is doing.


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## old Graybeard (Nov 3, 2005)

mathewshootr said:


> I think every state should do qdm. But I think it is a no win battle. Lrt the little ones go so they can grow. Mature bucks only please!!! If not shoot a doe. If it's little bones your after go shed hunting in the spring. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.


Maybe it thas to do with some people having different views then you


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

saskguy said:


> Why? So people can spend all their time planting food plots, worrying about what everyone else shoots, pretending to be experts at aging deer, thinking the deer on their property are their own, making competition for leases even greater? Seriously, I hunt for a big, mature deer every fall, but could really care less what the rest of the world is doing.


+1, At this point in life big horns are my interest,.....but how others get there enjoyment/jollies, is up to them.

Usually, this argument comes up in july/august.....we are ahead of schedule this year.


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## kravguy (Oct 12, 2006)

Wow, someone dug deep in the cookie jar for this one. It's from 2004 fellas, let it go:darkbeer:


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Matty-NJ said:


> Thats a GREAT point cornfed!
> 
> While I agree with it WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I actually feel the need for AR in areas around me. I understand the downside of it is that people can still harvest young "prospects" like the deer you posted above. But, until I can find a way to change the attitudes of public land hunters in my area, all I can do is push for antler restrictions. Because while its not the perfect solution. It does provide some bucks protection. Whereas our current regs, and attitude around here is more of....any buck is a dead buck, because I have six buck tags in my pocket! Thats sad, and the wrong attitude. With AR in place for a year or two, they may see results, and lifting the AR wouldnt be a problem, and attitudes would change easier. HOPEFULLY! Know what Im saying?
> 
> ...


Matty....the deer in Northern NJ are NEVER going to be like those in the mid-west.....they will get some age on them with AR and QDM but the habitat/agriculture to grow generations of 300 lb bucks is not there. It is easy to preach this kind of stuff when you live in an area where there are lots of big deer.

What is a guy in GA gonna do? He will never shoot anythinf if he waits for a booner. You have to be realistic.


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## deadly (Mar 17, 2006)

"Because they can". Not every State will produce Booner or P&Y buck, but you can hold out and shoot a mature buck, whether it be 110" 4 year old in Alabama or a 150"+ 4 year old in IL,WI, IA, OH, etc. I hunt mature bucks, not real concerned with the score.


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## FIGJAM (Jan 12, 2009)

Small thats not small this is small, its a Grey Diker and is one of seven small Diker species found in South Africa with the Blue Diker being the smallest at about 4lbs. The Grey Diker is about 10lbs.


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## Bowtoons (Jan 4, 2008)

saskguy said:


> Why? So people can spend all their time planting food plots, worrying about what everyone else shoots, pretending to be experts at aging deer, thinking the deer on their property are their own, making competition for leases even greater? Seriously, I hunt for a big, mature deer every fall, but could really care less what the rest of the world is doing.


Eveyone does not have the luxury of having their own property to hunt. ( like myself) and when you get every joe and their brother out their on opening day of gun season shooting whatever moves kinda of ruins it for all of us that spend all of their extra time scouting and the letting pass of small bucks a slap in the face. If you want meat shoot a doe


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

Why do I shoot ( as you say ) small bucks? Because its a hoot, and they tast great fired up with onions and mushrooms.


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## deadly (Mar 17, 2006)

Michigan Bob said:


> Why do I shoot ( as you say ) small bucks? Because its a hoot, and they tast great fired up with onions and mushrooms.


This is why MICHIGAN is a lost cause for Trophy Class animals or a mature well balanced deer herd.:set1_punch:

"because I can and it is LEGAL"


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## txdukklr (Jan 9, 2003)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


Not going to read six pages as this pretty much sums it up for me. I rank this question up with conversations about high fences and crossbows.

I hunt for time with my friends and family, peaceful time with my Lord and Saviour, some meat and if a decently aged "small" buck comes in.

He gets smoked.


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

> Eveyone does not have the luxury of having their own property to hunt. ( like myself) and when you get every joe and their brother out their on opening day of gun season shooting whatever moves kinda of ruins it for all of us that spend all of their extra time scouting and the letting pass of small bucks a slap in the face. If you want meat shoot a doe


Yeah...like me. I share all the property I hunt with many others. If they want to whack a buck that I let walk it's not for me to worry about. Sure I sometimes wish the buck could have survived, but at the same time I try not wish they hadn't shot it. The deer aren't mine, nor is the property. As long as they hunt ethically and legally, it's good enough for me.


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## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

I haven't ready the whole thread but responding to the thread title, the answer is very simple:

because it's either that or nothing!

and it's not all about the horns for everyone


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

*Kind of an arrogant question....*

I don't think that it is fair to put a quality restriction on anyone but yourself.. The smile says it all, if a hunter decides to take a animal, it his choice and I will be the first to pet him/her on the back... 
For the newbies, you would be amazed at how the sport has changed. You didn't get to hunt when hunting was all about having fun and putting some meat on the table, man those were the days.. I am bringing my kids up in that manner and so our my hunting buddies.. Don't judge a hunt by the size of the rack! have fun out there and make memories to last a life time...

Here is my first buck and my best buck, funny thing is I remember the hunts being the same.. A rush of emotions and accomplishments that I will never forget, to this day they both share my wall and my thoughts.. Happy hunting and best of luck to you on what ever type of animal you are hunting and please, never be ashamed of what you decided to harvest. That's not what hunting is about......


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## elkhunter130 (Nov 26, 2005)

Maybe where you are is different but around here, hunting blacktail, you take what is given to you by the lord. Yes, I have shot big deer but I also have shot forked horns. We can't shoot Doe's in Oregon unless you travel to a special area. Hunting Blacktails is above challenging, it is down right hard to score, on anything. Around here we say it is a trophy just to kill a buck with a bow.

Several do harvest big deer for a Blacktail and get in to P&Y, others are just as happy to take meat for their families. With the cougar and wolf problems we are having I would much rather see an Oregon hunting family get the venison than a car or a cougar. If you hunt ethically, legally, and with honor you should be happy with what ever your endeavours produce. If you feel you would like to let a buck pass than by all means do so, but don't tell me I should.

I have the predator instinct and teach it to my family.

If you want to jump a cause why not the poachers or wildlife management that both do more damage than ethical hunters. When half of the elk calves don't survive because of bears and wolves and then you see big six point bulls (yes, that was plural) pulled down in what used to be some of the greatest elk hunting country in the world, you become a little hardened to the results of "wildlife" management. Don't even get me started on poachers. You know who you are and we are watching.

I will not apologize for being a DIY hunter and will go out that way.

I am a member of the Oregon Bow Hunters Assoc., a Life Member of the NRA, and an archery coach. In my opinion, if you want to hunt trophies only than there are places you can pay for and weed out the undesirable element of your hunting experiance. As for me, you will find me on a mountain doing what I love and cherish. Bowhunting.


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

boarman1 said:


> HEY GUYS JUST TO GET YOU ATTENTION. THIS THREAD IS VERY VERY OLD SO I WOULDNT KEEP IT GOING !!!ukey:





> Wow, someone dug deep in the cookie jar for this one. It's from 2004 fellas, let it go


Who cares? Still a valid ? to some of us.


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## tyepsu (Jun 9, 2007)

It all comes back to what hunters set as their expectations. Set the bar low and that is exactly what you will achieve. Vice versa, set the bar high and you will also achieve that. States with large buck not only have mature deer because of genetics and good land but largely due to hunters attitudes. Growing up in Pa I hear hunters all the time say that bucks just will never grow to be mature. That is simply not true if all hunters would band together and refuse to shoot young bucks. I have spoken with hunters in states with mature buck and they simply pass on smaller and younger deer. It is all about self control and attitude. A QDM program won't work if one hunter adopts it and the next shoots every moving thing. Again, for all the meat hunters, why not shoot does? Is there really any state that has a much larger buck population than doe population that hunters need to only be shooting buck? It is not all about being a trophy hunter. I would not consider myself a trophy hunter. I would just like to see a balanced doe to buck ratio and the chance for bucks to show their potential.


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## YoteHunter (Jul 20, 2008)

I shoot a buck because I want too, not to impress you are archery talk members, if I am happy with my buck and it was legal than that is all that matters. 

Why do people question, hunters when a buck not up to their standards is shot.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Don't ya'll know anything....it's all about food....and providing for my family....because I'm a real man!

Nevermind the fact that a man could stay home, be a husband to his wife and a father to his children, take the piles of money that we spend on licenses, equipment, leases, etc. and buy filet mignion for our families for the entire year.

There are many good reasons for shooting a young buck from time to time, but this tired old argument certainly isn't one of them for 95% of the folks who do it.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

*Becasue we want to !!*

And thats all that anyone needs to know!


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

kravguy said:


> Wow, someone dug deep in the cookie jar for this one. It's from 2004 fellas, let it go:darkbeer:


This may be true, but it's such a "timeless" issue. As for waiting for that p&y buck, how long do ya think it'll take him to walk over here from Ill. Fulldraw? (If he makes it I'd be more than happy to zip him).Can't kill what is'nt there. Try not to fall off the ivory tower that your looking down upon the rest of us from.


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## Deer_N_Beer (Apr 26, 2005)

dogknapper said:


> I also shot a small buck (8 point) this year. Presumably I am one of the folks referred to in this posting. I also love it when someone asks an inherently critical question and then tries to camouflage it by saying they are not meaning to be critical.
> 
> So much for that. My reasons for shooting a small buck were as follows:
> 
> ...


sounds like a boo-hoo for you. He isn't trying to "camouflage" anything. I ask the same question. Yes, it's frustrating going 3 years, 5, or even longer with no buck. But it is hunting and that's part of the sport. Put in your time and you will get a nice one...regardless of location. Sure would be nice to kill one in a fence.......but that's not fair either. Good Luck!


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## Eric W (Jan 16, 2007)

I hunt the suburbs of NJ, not the corn fields of Iowa.

My first (and so far only) deer was a small 4-pointer last October.

My tag was about to expire and I took the shot. Still glad I did.

I smile every time I pass my Euro-mount.
.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I've shot small bucks and feel no shame for doing so. I don't think its fair to the new hunters to forego the natural progression of _being a hunter_.


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## rich-allen (Apr 4, 2008)

boarman1 said:


> HEY GUYS JUST TO GET YOU ATTENTION. THIS THREAD IS VERY VERY OLD SO I WOULDNT KEEP IT GOING !!!ukey:


The age of thread doesn't matter. In fact, I say keep it going. This thread is a perfect example of the typical uninformed selfish arrogant hunter you see in the field every season.

What distresses me is when someone like this trashcan sits back talking their sh*t acting as if their better than everyone else.
I have dogs that bigger craps than some of these keyboard hunters.


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## GAMEDIC (Dec 21, 2004)

I shoot small bucks so they won't grow up and be demeaned by getting mounted,and put on someones wall so they can feel they are a elite AT member.:darkbeer:


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## 30-30 (Mar 23, 2006)

cowboy6532 said:


> oh yeah and its total bull **** that i have to pay 160 dollars for a out of state lisense, cuz we pay taxes on 500 acres of land there just like any ****in resident..


Ever seen the nonres license fees for our state? ukey:


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## 30-30 (Mar 23, 2006)

Savannahman said:


> Because eating tags sucks!!!!!!!!!!! I'm in it for the meat. In my state you can only shoot one deer. So why wait for a BIG buck when food for the family is better suited for me.


You could shoot a doe, it's not like you're shooting a basket rack buck to put on the wall.


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## bamm (May 12, 2006)

because they can


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## ahawk19 (Aug 16, 2007)

*I feel ya*

This drives me crazy too. Here in SC we have a 10 deer a year limit. 5 does 5 bucks yet every single hunter seems to shoot small bucks "for the meat"...I eat deer meat 3 to 4 days a week with the 5 does I harvest each year..I donno why people shoot fork horns for the meat...let them grow and shootem a few years down the road...Now I will say I understand this for the guy who is in a state that doesnt have such liberal limits as we are fortunate enough to have here in SC...


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

30-30 said:


> You could shoot a doe, it's not like you're shooting a basket rack buck to put on the wall.


oh well sounds like you may just have to get over it and only worry about what you shoot "Instead"


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## vtec1 (Aug 11, 2008)

In my opinion it is a progression in a hunters career. You have to start somewhere and if that means taking a small buck with a bow or gun because he is in range then so be it. Myself, I have been hunting for 20 years and bow hunting 15 and what I would shoot today is not what I would shoot even 5 years ago. Like I said, to SOME it is a progression. I know, there will always be the select few that just hunt for meat regardless of antler size and that fact will never change.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

vtec1 said:


> In my opinion it is a progression in a hunters career. You have to start somewhere and if that means taking a small buck with a bow or gun because he is in range then so be it. Myself, I have been hunting for 20 years and bow hunting 15 and what I would shoot today is not what I would shoot even 5 years ago. Like I said, to SOME it is a progression. I know, there will always be the select few that just hunt for meat regardless of antler size and that fact will never change.



While the hunting industry and outdoor media would have you believe the majority of hunters are strictly trophy hunters by the context of their shows, articles and advertising, (big racks are great for advertising) I think the reality may actually be that there is a select few that only care about about antler size, not the other way around, and that fact (hopelly) will never change.


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## mduffy (Jul 4, 2008)

I think a more in line question would have been:

Why do people shoots small bucks just to say they shot a buck? or
Why do people that need meat and have ample chances to kill does shoot a small buck for meat? 

It is obviously very understandable why some people would shoot a small buck. They simply don't see many deer at all and they need the meat to feed their family.

I also struggle with the fact however that someone who has been hunting for a long time and killed several deer as to why they would ever shoot a small antlered buck assuming there are plenty of chances to take does? If it is not a trophy why not let him grow up?


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

mduffy said:


> I think a more in line question would have been:
> 
> Why do people shoots small bucks just to say they shot a buck? or
> Why do people that need meat and have ample chances to kill does shoot a small buck for meat?
> ...



The easy answer is the only person who has the right to judge whether or not a deer is a "trophy" is the person behind the bow or gun, any other measurement is completely arbitrary and meaningless.

I have never been one to feel the need to shoot a small buck, to say "I got my buck", but I don't have any issue with those that feel that way. Hunting to me is as much about tradition as it is about the "trophy". Generations of hunters went out to kill their buck and wouldn't dream of shooting a doe. If that was just fine until very recently when the next generation of hunters arbitrarily decided to place value antler size. All we are talking about is bone here. It only has value because some of us have decided it does. I have pictures of my grandfather from the early fifties with piles of bucks with headgear that will cause your jaw to drop. He place no value on the racks, it was just another deer to him. The lust for bone is recent phenomenon and not necessarily a good one. The traditional "buck pole" with a bunch of forkies hanging off of it was given value and has had value a lot longer than the recent trophy craze. That it is still valued is not bad and gives us some connection to where we came from.

I am also convinced that we as hunters have been nudged in that direction by the outdoor industry who see glossy grip and grin pictures of trophy hunters as a way to sell whatever trinket they are peddling. There could be sound biological reasons why taking does is good for the species, but most of the arguments seen here are about wanting to see more and bigger bucks. From a biological perspective, I am not sure that bucks with more head gear are good for the health of the species, or just good for the ego of hunters.


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## jmeier1981 (Jul 20, 2005)

The one thing that really kinda rubs me wrong is the response "If I dont shoot it someone else will" well come on guys if this was true there would be no big bucks anywhere. I try to only shoot bigger more mature bucks, and would love it if everbody in my area did the same but like anyone else Ive shot some in the past that werent big or mature. Now dont get me wrong I dont care what anybody shoots, but shoot it because it makes you happy, not just so somebody else doesnt. Also like said above, it is really irritating to see some people continually shoot smaller bucks year after year just to say they got a buck, and add another basket rack to there stack in the corner of the garage.


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## bigrackHack (Jun 11, 2004)

Toonces said:


> The easy answer is the only person who has the right to judge whether or not a deer is a "trophy" is the person behind the bow or gun, any other measurement is completely arbitrary and meaningless.


That should be applied across the board. Don't bash a guy that shoots a forkie if he thinks it's a trophy, likewise, don't bash those guys that chase only big antlered deer. They're no more deserving of harsh judgement or accusations of "horn porn" than a guy that passes 12 does and shoots a yearling buck.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


For many those small bucks are trophies.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

bigrackHack said:


> That should be applied across the board. Don't bash a guy that shoots a forkie if he thinks it's a trophy, likewise, don't bash those guys that chase only big antlered deer. They're no more deserving of harsh judgement or accusations of "horn porn" than a guy that passes 12 does and shoots a yearling buck.



Agreed, although I don't think "reverse discrimination" against trophy hunters is very prevalent.

I have seen plenty of folks proudly post their trophy pictures of spikes of forkhorns on various websites. Most of the comments are positive congratulatory, but there is the inevitable self absorbed yahoo who will make a "let em go, let em grow" comment or something similarly deragatory, when all the guy wanted to do was share his trophy with his fellow hunters.

On the flip side, when someone proudly posts a picture of a big racked deer, I don't often see a comment questioning why he pulled the trigger because "you can't eat the horns."


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## bigrackHack (Jun 11, 2004)

Toonces said:


> Agreed, although I don't think "reverse discrimination" against trophy hunters is very prevalent.
> 
> I have seen plenty of folks proudly post their trophy pictures of spikes of forkhorns on various websites. Most of the comments are positive congratulatory, but there is the inevitable self absorbed yahoo who will make a "let em go, let em grow" comment or something similarly deragatory, when all the guy wanted to do was share his trophy with his fellow hunters.
> 
> On the flip side, when someone proudly posts a picture of a big racked deer, I don't often see a comment questioning why he pulled the trigger because "you can't eat the horns."


I disagree that there's not any reverse discrimination. There are always instances of people expounding the evils of horn porn and QDM, etc. But that's another subject. 

Yes, if someone posts a pic for bragging rights, people oughta say congrats or keep their mouths shut.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Toonces said:


> The easy answer is the only person who has the right to judge whether or not a deer is a "trophy" is the person behind the bow or gun, any other measurement is completely arbitrary and meaningless.
> 
> I have never been one to feel the need to shoot a small buck, to say "I got my buck", but I don't have any issue with those that feel that way. Hunting to me is as much about tradition as it is about the "trophy". Generations of hunters went out to kill their buck and wouldn't dream of shooting a doe. If that was just fine until very recently when the next generation of hunters arbitrarily decided to place value antler size. All we are talking about is bone here. It only has value because some of us have decided it does. I have pictures of my grandfather from the early fifties with piles of bucks with headgear that will cause your jaw to drop. He place no value on the racks, it was just another deer to him. The lust for bone is recent phenomenon and not necessarily a good one. The traditional "buck pole" with a bunch of forkies hanging off of it was given value and has had value a lot longer than the recent trophy craze. That it is still valued is not bad and gives us some connection to where we came from.
> 
> I am also convinced that we as hunters have been nudged in that direction by the outdoor industry who see glossy grip and grin pictures of trophy hunters as a way to sell whatever trinket they are peddling. There could be sound biological reasons why taking does is good for the species, but most of the arguments seen here are about wanting to see more and bigger bucks. From a biological perspective, I am not sure that bucks with more head gear are good for the health of the species, or just good for the ego of hunters.


 If this is truly what you believe, then you've obviously never been blessed with the opportunity to hunt on a special piece of land that has a good population AND a buck to doe ratio that is very close to 1:1. I like a big set of horns just as much as the next guy, but what I like even better is intense, rutting activity.....the way God intended it to be. Skewed ratios with no mature bucks in the herd eliminates true, intense rutting activity which is THE MOST exciting thing about deer hunting for everyone who's ever picked up a bow or gun. How many people do you know that plan vacations around the rut every single year? How many people do you know that carry rattling horns hoping to be able to call up a rutting buck? It's all about the quality of the hunting experience.....the big racks are just a nice bonus.


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## sbs (May 31, 2007)

*whats a trophy*

what is a trophy to some may not be a trophy to all but we each have to decide for ourselves what we want to shoot as long as it is legal,In other words if you dont want to shoot a small buck then dont shoot one.And dont pass judgement on me if i decide for whatever reason to shoot a spike.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

What is painfully obvious in this entire discussion is that many of you have no idea what it is we do as hunters, what conservation is, and what the ultimate goals are.

Hunting is NOT about antler size or socially engineering a herd. Hunting is about perpetuation of the wildlife, protection and perpetuation of habitat....

FOR EVERYONE IN YOUR STATE, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU HUNT OR NOT!

We are ALL BOUND by the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

I strong recommend you all get with the program. You can re-learn what we are all about on the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation website. You can also find it on the Erie County Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs website.

Absolutely pathetic. Its not about horns, or letting the little ones walk. If you choose to, do so. But do not ever, ever belittle or otherwie denegrate a fellow hunter for the harvest he chose. That is a tell-tale signal that you are a selfish, prideful and very useless individual.

And, predation, across the board, across all predatory species, is about OPPORTUNITY. Our charge is to make certain we take the best opportunity as to kill the animal quickly and cleanly, while assuring speedy recovery of that animal so it can be used properly and wisely.

Get with the program.

Rich Davenport
Recording Secretary Erie County Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs
Secretary WNY Environmental Federation
Region 9 Rep NYS Big Game Committee
Member-Erie County Fisheries Advisory Board
Member NYSOWA - Freelance Outdoors Writer
The Guy who saved the NYS Pheasant Program and Game Farm


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

WhitetailChaser said:


> If this is truly what you believe, then you've obviously never been blessed with the opportunity to hunt on a special piece of land that has a good population AND a buck to doe ratio that is very close to 1:1. I like a big set of horns just as much as the next guy, but what I like even better is intense, rutting activity.....the way God intended it to be. Skewed ratios with no mature bucks in the herd eliminates true, intense rutting activity which is THE MOST exciting thing about deer hunting for everyone who's ever picked up a bow or gun. How many people do you know that plan vacations around the rut every single year? How many people do you know that carry rattling horns hoping to be able to call up a rutting buck? It's all about the quality of the hunting experience.....the big racks are just a nice bonus.



Are you sure its what God intended, or are we playing God to turn the rut into something we want it to be for our own amusement? I don't know the answer. But I also don't profess to know what God intends or doesn't intend.

Also, I hate to break this to you but some folks find bowling to be real nail biting white knuckle experience. :asleep: I would be careful painting with a broad brush stating that intense rutting activity is the most exciting part of deer hunting for everyone that has ever set foot in the woods.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

doctariAFC said:


> What is painfully obvious in this entire discussion is that many of you have no idea what it is we do as hunters, what conservation is, and what the ultimate goals are.
> 
> Hunting is NOT about antler size or socially engineering a herd. Hunting is about perpetuation of the wildlife, protection and perpetuation of habitat....
> 
> ...


:cheers:


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## crackedup (Mar 17, 2009)

:set1_signs009: and :cheers: They all taste good and never really made any type of a meal out of horns. Ugh, I am a hunter of meat, it taste good, make my belly all happy.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I'm a "trophy" hunter now. I was not born a trophy hunter. I didn't start out as a trophy hunter. I didn't even realize I became one until I recollected on all those that I gave a pass on. I've never lived anywhere with so many deer that they needed to be reduced in overall numbers...mother nature does too good of a job periodically to keep the numbers in check all by herself. I've never had a doe tag. 

That's my business. 

What anyone else legally shoots is none of mine. I can't lay claim to the state's deer anymore than the next guy. While some may claim that God wants a 1:1 deer ratio they need to have Him take it up with Mother Nature, because around here the herds that don't get hunted are only around 35:100. Seems that when Ma Nature thins the herds out she made bucks more susceptible to mammalian predation and weaker from the rut so the bucks die from malnurishment more often...maybe she's sexist. 

Maybe some find being overrun by deer during the rut more fun. Maybe, but I find hunting low population densities during spot and stalk to be more challenging...and the more challenging to me the more fun it becomes. 

All this egocentric thinking further distances us from the core of hunting. We really should appreciate those hunters that are opposite of us. Its the meat hunters that do more to manage the herd size. Its the trophy hunters that pass on the 3.5 year old buck that some of the meat hunters are so tickled to get. 

The QDM guys do a little of both, but in skewing the herd by shooting so many does (increasing breeding competition and decreasing breeding opportunity) they encourage "their" bucks to disperse elsewhere, then bemoan their neighbor's for killing a buck no longer on their property. Who's fault is it really? 

The only words you'll ever hear come out of my mouth (at least seriously, I do like to joke around with my friends) is either "congratulations", or nothing at all...you can take that how you want.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Toonces said:


> Are you sure its what God intended, or are we playing God to turn the rut into something we want it to be for our own amusement? I don't know the answer. But I also don't profess to know what God intends or doesn't intend.
> 
> Also, I hate to break this to you but some folks find bowling to be real nail biting white knuckle experience. :asleep: I would be careful painting with a broad brush stating that intense rutting activity is the most exciting part of deer hunting for everyone that has ever set foot in the woods.


 First of all, I don't think God has buck to doe ratios very high on his list.....the comment was tongue in cheek. However, I find it pretty revealing that fawns are born at one to one....don't you? :wink:

2nd, find me one (just one) serious deer hunter who would trade a day of hunting where they saw 10 does with one peckerhead spike harassing them for a day of hunting where they saw a minimum of one buck behind every doe they saw, running and grunting like crazy, fighting, etc. Good luck with your search.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

WhitetailChaser said:


> First of all, I don't think God has buck to doe ratios very high on his list.....the comment was tongue in cheek. However, I find it pretty revealing that fawns are born at one to one....don't you? :wink:
> 
> 2nd, find me one (just one) serious deer hunter who would trade a day of hunting where they saw 10 does with one peckerhead spike harassing them for a day of hunting where they saw a minimum of one buck behind every doe they saw, running and grunting like crazy, fighting, etc. Good luck with your search.


Fawns born 1:1 as proof?

Please, fawn births and sex of fawns born are directly related to HABITAT.

I wonder why so many of those spouting this garbage always leave the habitat part of the equation out?

Oh well. I guess some will never get it.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

doctariAFC said:


> Fawns born 1:1 as proof?
> 
> Please, fawn births and sex of fawns born are directly related to HABITAT.
> 
> ...


 I don't really remember anybody talking to you way up there on your all too serious high horse. You a Pharisee? Lighten up Francis!


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

WhitetailChaser said:


> First of all, I don't think God has buck to doe ratios very high on his list.....the comment was tongue in cheek. However, I find it pretty revealing that fawns are born at one to one....don't you? :wink:
> 
> 2nd, find me one (just one) serious deer hunter who would trade a day of hunting where they saw 10 does with one peckerhead spike harassing them for a day of hunting where they saw a minimum of one buck behind every doe they saw, running and grunting like crazy, fighting, etc. Good luck with your search.



I won't be doing a search, because in all honesty I don't care. I do however care that you are happy and excited about your hunting opportunities. That is what matters. 

The best day of hunting I ever had, I never saw a legal animal. I wouldn't trade it for any number of days like the one you described. If that makes me a less than "serious" hunter in your eyes, I can live with that.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Toonces said:


> The best day of hunting I ever had, I never saw a legal animal. I wouldn't trade it for any number of days like the one you described. If that makes me a less than "serious" hunter in your eyes, I can live with that.


 Same goes for me (primarily because of a special trip with my Father or my children, unbelievable scenery created by the hand of God, etc. etc.). But, I'm kind of a "have your cake and eat it too kinda guy". You wanna really make some memories.......have great, quality hunting AND include all the other aspects of hunting that make it great. I'm kinda crazy like that though.


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## 30-30 (Mar 23, 2006)

doctariAFC said:


> Absolutely pathetic. Its not about horns, or letting the little ones walk. If you choose to, do so. But do not ever, ever belittle or otherwie denegrate a fellow hunter for the harvest he chose. That is a tell-tale signal that you are a selfish, prideful and very useless individual.
> 
> Get with the program.



My state is "getting with the program." Texas introduced antler restrictions in a couple dozen counties several years ago, and the results have been incredible. I have spoken with several biologists, and they say that the restrictions (13 in. spread minimum) were put in place because more than fifty percent of the deer taken in east Texas were bucks 1.5 years old or younger. They weren't trying to force trophy hunting, they were trying to better balance the age structure of the deer herd. They succeeded, and bigger antlers are just a bonus. I was given a chart showing harvest percentages by age. Three years after the initial restrictions were put in place, the majority of legal bucks taken are now 3.5 years old. More and more counties are adopting the restrictions every year. There are more bucks of all age classes, and that is the way it should be. I'm not one of the bashers who will belittle a hunter for taking a young buck. But I always wonder why a seasoned hunter would take a buck with the potential to be a monster "for meat." If hunters would shoot does for meat and hold the trigger finger on small bucks, EVERYONE would have a good shot at taking a big buck every year.


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? *Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? *Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Because they "need the meat" and "have to feed their families."


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## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*shoot what you want under the law*

Don't bother me none.

I passed on may small bucks the past years, by no ones choice but mine.

Just like someone may not, it their choice, legal, and if they are happy with it, that's great. It's what I care about. 

Just as I'm happy with out shooting a buck and shooting only does. I don't want someone else downin' me for not shooting a buck.

So why do they shoot "small" bucks?

Because they choose to!


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Because they taste better than an old buck.


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## jmm83164 (Sep 29, 2008)

*Small Bucks*

I can take up to 6 deer in my state with my bow more if I buy more tags.
I hunt be outdoors and fill my freezer I will always take the first ethical shot on any legal deer that I see. 
I wont hunt QDM land. Turned down a free year on a 2000 acre lease that had a 14 inch rule.
Hunt your way Ill hunt mine but my freezer is always full.
When I get a good buck its cool but its stil just a deer no differant than than spike or doe .Antlers for decoration is only a minor plus.
Mike


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> I've shot small bucks and feel no shame for doing so. I don't think its fair to the new hunters to forego the natural progression of _being a hunter_.


It is a journey Bob. Any deer, a buck, a big buck, only a big buck, then getting your kid any deer. Bows that make it easier, then bow's that make it harder. In the air, in a blind, in a ghillie.

I keep evolving to keep it interesting. I may not have stuck with it if I started big boys only. Heck we were lucky to see a deer 30 years ago, now they eat my roses and stick their tongues out at me. You need some feed back to learn and enjoy. All I would ask the meat hunters is not to pass on does.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

jmm83164 said:


> I can take up to 6 deer in my state with my bow more if I buy more tags.
> I hunt be outdoors and fill my freezer I will always take the first ethical shot on any legal deer that I see.
> I wont hunt QDM land. Turned down a free year on a 2000 acre lease that had a 14 inch rule.
> Hunt your way Ill hunt mine but my freezer is always full.
> ...


 You must be Fred Bear's first cousin to be able to fill a freezer with yearling bucks with such regularity. They're such a challenge. :thumbs_up


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## Big Ben 75 (Apr 14, 2009)

if its legal its your choice. the buck tags in my state don't say 140" minimum on them


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

Well, I would say this debate is as heated as it was in 2004.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

WhitetailChaser said:


> You must be Fred Bear's first cousin to be able to fill a freezer with yearling bucks with such regularity. They're such a challenge. :thumbs_up



If you care so much about the challenge of shooting bigger bucks then you should be happy he is shooting the yearlings, no? Doesn't the challenge of shooting a big buck decrease, the more of them there are? Or maybe it really isn't the challenge your after at all. Maybe you are more concerned about making it easier to kill bigger bucks by making them more plentiful.


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## cowboy6532 (Apr 30, 2009)

30-30 said:


> Ever seen the nonres license fees for our state? ukey:


no sir, how high is it for just gun deer?


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## stlmodroptine (Aug 26, 2008)

I shoot anything that I want that is legal. Until it is illegal for me to shoot small bucks, I will continue. I don't eat the antlers anyway. To me, any deer I kill is a trophy, so why does it matter? And no, I could care less wether or not people like it or not


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Toonces said:


> If you care so much about the challenge of shooting bigger bucks then you should be happy he is shooting the yearlings, no? Doesn't the challenge of shooting a big buck decrease, the more of them there are? Or maybe it really isn't the challenge your after at all. Maybe you are more concerned about making it easier to kill bigger bucks by making them more plentiful.


 I'm not really concerned at all anymore (given Alabama's recents changes) with this issue. Stirring the pot a little is all I'm concerned about within the context of this post. :wink:

FWIW, I'm not a tetotaller on either side of the issue. As is the case with most issues, moderation is the key. I don't believe a hunter should be able to kill young bucks every day of the season like so many did in Alabama for decades (I've killed as many as 15 bucks in a season here when I was young and dumb and first got decent at finding them, seeing them, and killing them). By the same token, I don't believe states should make it where it isn't legal to kill any at all either. I'm a hunter first and a QDM guy 2nd. People work a lot, are new hunters, etc....lots of reasons to allow individuals some freedom with what bucks they take within biologically determined limits. Right now I hunt in Illinois and Alabama. Illinois allows 1-2 bucks per hunter per year while Alabama now has a 3 buck limit, one of which must have 4 points on one side.....hence, I'm happy as can be.....there are lots and lots of bucks in both places best I can tell.

As for your other comment, you can take one thing to the bank. There are a lot of things I'm not remotely good at, but deer hunting isn't one of them. I was passing small bucks and killing good bucks before most had ever heard the acronym QDM or even entertained a thought about passing up small bucks themselves.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

30-30 said:


> My state is "getting with the program." Texas introduced antler restrictions in a couple dozen counties several years ago, and the results have been incredible. I have spoken with several biologists, and they say that the restrictions (13 in. spread minimum) were put in place because more than fifty percent of the deer taken in east Texas were bucks 1.5 years old or younger. They weren't trying to force trophy hunting, they were trying to better balance the age structure of the deer herd. They succeeded, and bigger antlers are just a bonus. I was given a chart showing harvest percentages by age. Three years after the initial restrictions were put in place, the majority of legal bucks taken are now 3.5 years old. More and more counties are adopting the restrictions every year. There are more bucks of all age classes, and that is the way it should be. I'm not one of the bashers who will belittle a hunter for taking a young buck. But I always wonder why a seasoned hunter would take a buck with the potential to be a monster "for meat." If hunters would shoot does for meat and hold the trigger finger on small bucks, EVERYONE would have a good shot at taking a big buck every year.


I'm very familiar with what Texas has been doing. I am also very familiar with the vastly different habitat Texas has vs. many other states.

I am also familiar with many parts of Texas now seeing High Grading in the original AR areas. WIll antler spread help? Maybe, but I have seen some seriously old deer (5 1/2+) with very small racks. Cannot harvest them.

Nutrition and genetics will dictate what kind of head gear a deer will have. If it has superior genetics, they will show this in their first rack.

And then we have some of the western states that are doing an about-face on AR. Too many problems being created in the herd, conflicts with farmers, lower hunter numbers, etc. Not to mention a dramatic decline in the best genetics in the woods.

The bottom line in this mess (and that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS) is the SCIENCE is conflicting. 

If you read the NAWCM, you would see we do not act on anything where the science isn't consistent and clear (cannot be exact with wildlife, but you sure can be consistent). These programs also MUST BE SUSTAINABLE, as is demanded by the model. Doesn't appear this is sustainable at all, for the deer, for the habitat and for the hunters.

Let's see some consistent science, please.


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## 30-30 (Mar 23, 2006)

cowboy6532 said:


> no sir, how high is it for just gun deer?


It's gone down in the last couple of years, but even now it's $300. That doesn't include stamp endorsements, just deer tags. I'm sure glad I'm a resident!


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

WhitetailChaser said:


> I don't really remember anybody talking to you way up there on your all too serious high horse. You a Pharisee? Lighten up Francis!


So that's your reply?

Look, taking a birth rate as your "proof" is about as dim as a 1/2 watt bulb, no offense. Its not about how they're born. It how the fawns SURVIVE. 

And that is dependent upon habitat, primarily, coupled with time of year they are born.

In NYS, where we have a supposed pilot area underway, guess what. The harvest makeup which was supposed to show a larger number of 2 1/2 YO animals making up the harvest hasn't materialized. In fact, although the 1 1/2 YO buck harvest has dropped, and overall harvest of antlered deer has also dropped by 40% to 60%, depending on which WMU we examine, the 2 1/2 YO harvest makeup has remained the SAME when comparing pre-AR and post-AR. The progam has been in place for 4 years. And the antlerless problems have gotten worse, according to the farmers in those areas.


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

Lets tell the young hunters that they (cant shoot small or young bucks). Build them up to be macho man hunter. Tell them if they kill a small buck that they really aint much of a hunter at all. Put them out in the woods and press these words to them. How will they learn the ways of the animals and the woods that they the animals live in. The young hunter needs to develope into a GREAT HUNTER , dont take that away from him.


Crazy Wolf.


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## Pager21 (Dec 27, 2008)

As far as small buck go, I will restrict my self during gun season to decent deer, but as i have yet to get a deer with my bow I am much less picky. With earn-a-buck it is getting more and more difficult to just take does as they are becoming less plentiful.

I have a pick of my 2005 gun deer (one year without EAB) and the biggest deer of both of my parents. When they got their deer, they were trophies. They ae about 15-20 years old. My deer measured 136.5 net and 147.75 gross. It is the biggest deer taken to date and one of the biggest ever seen on our land. I don't know what I'd even do if I say a 180" class deer.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

crazy wolf said:


> Lets tell the young hunters that they (cant shoot small or young bucks). Build them up to be macho man hunter. Tell them if they kill a small buck that they really aint much of a hunter at all. Put them out in the woods and press these words to them. How will they learn the ways of the animals and the woods that they the animals live in. The young hunter needs to develope into a GREAT HUNTER , dont take that away from him.
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


 I've met and talked to hundreds of deer hunters in my life, both in person and on the web. I can remember a grand total of ZERO who are against young folks being able to kill any buck. I can't, for the life of me, fathom why people continue to bring it up (other than to continue to fictiously paint QDM advocates as the devil ) when this kind of debate is going on.


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## ryan h (Feb 1, 2008)

because when you let that 2 1/2 year old 8 point go in bow season some one will shoot it in gun season


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

WhitetailChaser said:


> I've met and talked to hundreds of deer hunters in my life, both in person and on the web. I can remember a grand total of ZERO who are against young folks being able to kill any buck. I can't, for the life of me, fathom why people continue to bring it up (other than to continue to fictiously paint QDM advocates as the devil ) when this kind of debate is going on.


Advocacy is one thing. Pushing for loss of choice and opportunity is another. And when the science is conflicting to begin with, then you run afoul of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. And if you run afoul of the most successful wildlife conservation model the world has ever known, then you're not much of a conservationist, are you?


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

ryan h said:


> because when you let that 2 1/2 year old 8 point go in bow season some one will shoot it in gun season


the animals are not yours. Wildlife is for EVERYONE to enjoy and learn from, not only the hunters, bud.

And you do not "own" a single animal until you have harvested, recovered and tagged that deer.

That's the part of the QDM snake oil that bothers me. It plays on the emotions of a hunter who has a good buck on trail cam, that in that hunter's eyes shows "great potential", then they get upset that someone harvested it because during its normal movement patterns it came across a hunter and the deer was effectively in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Which is exactly how predation works in nature.


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## cwoods (Dec 22, 2008)

Guess we have deer hunters and trophey hunters.I think this debate could go on for years!


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## heavyDARTS (Jan 6, 2009)

maybe because they are hungry or maybe because they like tender veal I mean venison.


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## bang250 (Jan 10, 2005)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


I didn't read all the thread. I live in Central Illinois also and haven't seen a good buck in a few years. I like to eat and it cost me this year by not shooting those small bucks. I let them go, til late season and still only have/had 3 deer in the freezer. 3 deer doesn't feed a family of 5 for a year. I like to hunt, a big buck is only a bonus.


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

> Advocacy is one thing. Pushing for loss of choice and opportunity is another. And when the science is conflicting to begin with, then you run afoul of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. And if you run afoul of the most successful wildlife conservation model the world has ever known, then you're not much of a conservationist, are you?


Very well said.

Now I realize this buck is not "little".








I did however elect to let it live this past fall b/c I thought it had a chance to turn into a giant. A person from Alberta later shot it in November with a rifle, it was his biggest deer ever and he was happy as a clam, if someone is happy with what they shoot, then it's all good, doesn't matter if it's a spike or a booner. Had I had sole access to the property or foot plots or mineral licks etc.. I'd have been more likely to wish that deer to be mine to groom into a big old deer,...they're just deer, great animals but just deer.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

saskguy said:


> Very well said.
> 
> 
> I did however elect to let it live this past fall b/c I thought it had a chance to turn into a giant. A person from Alberta later shot it in November with a rifle, it was his biggest deer ever and he was happy as a clam, if someone is happy with what they shoot, then it's all good, doesn't matter if it's a spike or a booner. Had I had sole access to the property or foot plots or mineral licks etc.. I'd have been more likely to wish that deer to be mine to groom into a big old deer,...they're just deer, great animals but just deer.



Thay are beutiful but they are just a DEER!

Well said both of you .I agree we tend to think because we feed with food plots or feeders that these deer are like livestock we give them silly names and have pictures of them maybe over seaveral years that they belong to us personally .However they are only your deer if they are in the back of a truck or payed for and in a HF ranch and in the case of latter they are simply livestock.

I beleive we as hunters are our own worst enemy .We will bring it to blows over a set of antlers and the size that thay attain .We would limit access and limit opperatunity for the greed of a few that want them all to be big and some want them all .Telling others what to kill and stopping them from killing a legal animal because some wanabe trophy hunter QDM guru wants a big one or all the big one s is only one thing "DESPICABLE".


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

doctariAFC said:


> the animals are not yours. Wildlife is for EVERYONE to enjoy and learn from, not only the hunters, bud.
> 
> And you do not "own" a single animal until you have harvested, recovered and tagged that deer.
> 
> ...


 Dude, you're so worked up over this thing, you're not even correctly identifying what the intent of the posts you're quoting are.

I could spend hours debating your points if they made any sense to begin with, but you are all over the place so I digress. I like the points that I'm trying to counterpoint just like I like my bucks.....standing perfectly still....no moving targets for me.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

doctariAFC said:


> So that's your reply?
> 
> Look, taking a birth rate as your "proof" is about as dim as a 1/2 watt bulb, no offense. Its not about how they're born. It how the fawns SURVIVE.
> 
> ...


 I will add one thing to your diatribes and then I'm out. What in all of God's creation does the management of the deer herd in NY have to do with the management of the deer herd in Alabama? I have never advocated a flippin thing in the state of NY because I've never even set foot there. You can bet I put a bug in many folks' (with power) ears concerning our current limits in Alabama though (totally different habitat, totally different winters and predation or lack thereof, and obviously totally different results from what you stated for that ONE SINGLE pilot area in NY). It took our concerted effort a few years to finally come to fruition here, but it was sure worth the effort.


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## BCFrye_Kansas (Mar 5, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Thay are beutiful but they are just a DEER!
> 
> Well said both of you .I agree we tend to think because we feed with food plots or feeders that these deer are like livestock we give them silly names and have pictures of them maybe over seaveral years that they belong to us personally .However they are only your deer if they are in the back of a truck or payed for and in a HF ranch and in the case of latter they are simply livestock.
> 
> I beleive we as hunters are our own worst enemy .We will bring it to blows over a set of antlers and the size that thay attain .We would limit access and limit opperatunity for the greed of a few that want them all to be big and some want them all .Telling others what to kill and stopping them from killing a legal animal because some wanabe trophy hunter QDM guru wants a big one or all the big one s is only one thing "DESPICABLE".


I could be wrong, but didn't we have a discussion where you defended a group of hunters who shot up all the deer on a piece of property because the lease ended. That they grew the deer so they were entitled to them? That any animal dead or alive belongs to the landowner whose land it resides upon?

Change of heart?


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

BCFrye_Kansas said:


> I could be wrong, but didn't we have a discussion where you defended a group of hunters who shot up all the deer on a piece of property because the lease ended. That they grew the deer so they were entitled to them? That any animal dead or alive belongs to the landowner whose land it resides upon?
> 
> Change of heart?


If I remember correctly that l deffend their right to shoot what they wanted as it was their hunting land and they had payed for the right to hunt it.That was my main argument they had the right to their hard work!!I also deffend the right for a guy to shoot a spike or fork if they want to its their hunt ."Same argument really " They were entitled to them just like any hunter on their land .The main argument was there were those who thought that they were wrong for takeing all the legal deer that "They grew" .They did not won them in their state as the sticking word were what is the legal description of the ownership of deer in their ,yours ,or my state.

Nuff said on this I think as I am pro whatever is legal in any state and disslike limiting others hunting by stupid greed centered legislation.Besides you need to know I have times that I like stir the pot "ALOT" .


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

Wow, Check this out..I can care less if its a buck or a doe.. with that said I hunt to put meat in the freezer, Right now I only have 2 lil doe shoulders left. That was with a 180 lb buck and 115 pound doe. We actually eat on them.. Towards the later part of the season I was really looking for a mature doe. A big one.. If it had bone even better. Fact is that yes i'd rather shoot a huge monster buck. however meat is meat! And yes when that sun starts cresting on opening day of general gun I can only wonder how many deer are being shot by a high power rifle doing 13000 fps  that have fed on our food plots as shots start ringing from every direction. There was only 3 bucks killed last year total, our neighbor shot 1, We all been passing up and the one my brother got grossed 153" weve only been restricting ourselves for about 3 years now.. We are seing some bigger deer wich gives us about 50-60 pounds more meat and we had the PLEASURE of passing up on some nice deer! But the first thing I see opening day of archery if its not spotted its gonna get cauterized! We are seing much better deer!


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

WOW

Holy Moley

This thread started in 2004.........


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

WhitetailChaser said:


> I will add one thing to your diatribes and then I'm out. What in all of God's creation does the management of the deer herd in NY have to do with the management of the deer herd in Alabama? I have never advocated a flippin thing in the state of NY because I've never even set foot there. You can bet I put a bug in many folks' (with power) ears concerning our current limits in Alabama though (totally different habitat, totally different winters and predation or lack thereof, and obviously totally different results from what you stated for that ONE SINGLE pilot area in NY). It took our concerted effort a few years to finally come to fruition here, but it was sure worth the effort.


I surely hope you have the SCIENCE behind it.

And yes, habitat is different, state to state, even region to region within a state. Glad that has been acknowledged.

But, let me ask you a couple questions.

1 - Are you a rep of QDMA? Or are you a member?

2 - If ANY State DNR or DEC or whatnot tells the stakeholders that we are going to launch a pilot program to evaluate an altrnative deer management strategy, what does that mean to you? 

3 - Do you believe it correct and kosher with the NAWCM for QDMA to push expansion of this alternative deer management plan BEFORE the pilot program is completed and data evaluated?

If you would be so kind, please respond to the above Q's.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

WhitetailChaser said:


> Dude, you're so worked up over this thing, you're not even correctly identifying what the intent of the posts you're quoting are.
> 
> I could spend hours debating your points if they made any sense to begin with, but you are all over the place so I digress. I like the points that I'm trying to counterpoint just like I like my bucks.....standing perfectly still....no moving targets for me.


Please,


Don't pee down my neck and claim its raining.


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## cwoods (Dec 22, 2008)

yup....it'll probaly go 5 more years to at this rate!:darkbeer:


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

mikedgates said:


> They make better door handels


That is very cool! :darkbeer:


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Thay are beutiful but they are just a DEER!
> 
> Well said both of you .I agree we tend to think because we feed with food plots or feeders that these deer are like livestock we give them silly names and have pictures of them maybe over seaveral years that they belong to us personally .However they are only your deer if they are in the back of a truck or payed for and in a HF ranch and in the case of latter they are simply livestock.
> 
> I beleive we as hunters are our own worst enemy .We will bring it to blows over a set of antlers and the size that thay attain .We would limit access and limit opperatunity for the greed of a few that want them all to be big and some want them all .Telling others what to kill and stopping them from killing a legal animal because some wanabe trophy hunter QDM guru wants a big one or all the big one s is only one thing "DESPICABLE".


You've inadvertently stumbled into another issue of concern with this QDM snake oil. Food plots, and land leasing.

Land leasing, depening on what state you're from or hunt in, is either something that has just always been, or is a relatively new phenomenon in the hunting world. However, I believe we can all agree that this practice really got rolling in earnest about 10 years ago.

Now, just speaking from NYS perspective, land leasing is being truly driven by politicians and their lust for property tax dollars. One cannot blame any landowner who once granted permission to hunters to hunt their lands now suddenly charging $1K-$3K for a lease fee. The way our property tax rates have escalated, just since 2005, in many rural hunting counties across the Vampire State, many property owners have no choice but to charge a lease fee, or sell the property because they can no longer afford to pay the tax. 

The trouble comes into play when greed is injected into the equation. The promise of big bucks drives the value of a lease up. So, too, does the sight of lots of deer. After all, I don't know of too many hunters who want to hunt a land devoid of animals for free, let alone pay to hunt the lands, right? And as leasing becomes more widespread, the resulting consequence is lower access to hunting lands, as leases are typically (not always) limited in the number of hunters that can be on the lease. Bidding wars do ensue when the promise of big bucks and lots of animals exist.

But whether bidding wars or escalating lease fees are in play, the landowner still desires to justify the cost of that lease to the perspective buyer. And in the leasing world, there's nothing like having a loyal, long-term leasee.

Enter food plots. One of the best ways to guarantee wildlife will be on your property is to assure plenty of food, and oftentimes actual land management itself is time consuming and could be a hassle, especially when you find the need to do some significant logging to let the sunshine back in, which means tearing up the terrain with skids and such, and when you're leasing your property to hunters, some of that necessary work could adversely affect the hunters' willingness to fork over the $. Food plots are a great way to supplement your lands' food sources while increasing a habitat's carrying capacity in the process.

Trouble is, when you start introducing food plots, many will not plant natural food sources, opting instead for brassicis (New Zealand) and other flora marketed to hunters and land owners as deer "attractants". And whether we like to look at it or not, these food plots, depending on their size, of course, certainly can disrupt the natural movement of the herds, and this is not unintended. And it puts the hunter that must hunt public lands at a huge disadvantage, especially in states like NY, where little to no management can happen on public lands (thanks to Sierra Club, predominantly). Throw in the mandated AR on the backs of the public land hunter, and you've got a formula to drive many hunters away from the sports (and this is happening) as the cost to access huntable lands that actually hold deer becomes prohibitive to lower income level hunters. That is exactly what is happening today across the Nation, not just here in NYS.

This is being driven by QDMA, whether intentional or not. It capitalizes upon the obvious desires of every deer hunter to harvest a big buck every season. In the process, we reduce our ranks, our economic vitality and our abilities to control the conservation of wildlife, and even fisheries and natural resources (need license buyers to fund this stuff). When this dries up, who gets to replace us in the driver's seat?


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

davydtune said:


> That is very cool! :darkbeer:


hear hear! I second that!! VERY COOL.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Hope your all not waiting for a buck like this dude to show up quartering away at 15 yards.

Shoot the one on the* right*>>>>>>>>QDM.


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## ranger774 (Dec 8, 2006)

A lot of places, like here, if you pass on a deer, you are very likely to see it the next day DEAD along side the highway. Better to eat the little bugger than let it rot.:mg:


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

*Trophy Hunters -vs- Deer Hunters*

Wow soon as I looked at the topic I knew this would never die! Ha Ha, someone from hog haven gets on here and asks why doesn't the rest of the world let the little ones go, what a hoot. The only thing i'm trying to figure out is if the original poster is really that simple minded or just trying to piss everyone off.


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## Thundr (Jan 18, 2008)

I am a firm believer in...Shoot what ever you want, But don't complain when you don't see and large bucks when you are the ones killing all the little ones.


I have never seen a small buck grow into a monster with an arrow sticking out of it.


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## ArcheryBowx (Mar 2, 2003)

.....how about 180" plus ,,200"??,,,or let it go .... shoot whatever you're happy with,,,,


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## SunRiverMan (May 30, 2007)

Young deer taste better. I have decided too let young bucks walk. That said, I have shot and ate them in the past and will gladly eat a doe. SRM


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## sataug2788 (Feb 7, 2009)

If I had my own private land to hunt, I would let the small ones go but since I hunt public land and im lucky to even see a deer I will shoot what is legal and me and my family will eat for a couple of months.


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

*Because they can and will.*

Its their choice, no one elses.....................want to hunt big bucks have at it, but knocking others for their success shows what a one sided jerk one is. No argument is a justification for questioning an others choice of game they take...................none.

Hunting for some is not what it is to others, but all are still hunters. People who think they are better or smarter then others are those with the problem, not the one who shoots what they want.


Top


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## robert kirchner (May 10, 2007)

I shoot small bucks, small does (no buttons)because I don't see a deer 75% of the time and I am not a very good hunter.

When I do shoot any deer I get just excited as some do with a 130 inch buck.

The meat is good and I am having fun.


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## IlHunt (Jan 2, 2008)

Beacuse any meat on the table to me is a trophy. I'm new to bow hunting and have only been gun hunting for about 5 years. To me a deer on the grill is better than on the side of the road dead. We have an overpopulation here so if its legal and a good shot I will take it with bow or gun. (By the way, why is there so much bitternes on this forum toward gun hunters? I know there are alot of folks that play Rambo while gun hunting , I hear them every year. But not everyone is like that. )


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## Canuck Archer (Jul 1, 2007)

Ten guys in camp for rifle and only legal to shoot bucks. Party hunt so that means all hunters continue to hunt until all ten tags are filled. All the guys love deer meat. Big woods,miles of ground and nine other guys that would have been mad as hell if I would have passed this guy up. Didn't have to use my tag. But on the other hand,If I would have let him get as old as this four year old thread. Hmmmmm. He would have been a nice one!


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## zyxw (Feb 19, 2007)

Why shoot small bucks? Good practice for when you get a chance at a big one. Only half kidding here. Nothing can simulate shooting live game. no matter how many arrows you shoot at targets shooting game is a little different be it deer, ground hogs, even birds or ground squirrels. I hunt the south and the midwest. I hunt a little in the south early in the year and will shoot any buck, small or large. For me i use this as practice for later in the year. One thing good about the southern states you can kill several bucks a year so you can get plenty of shooting in. I hunt the midwest every day from mid Oct. till Dec. When I'm there I shoot nothing but big bucks. shooting the small ones helps me be ready. I don't get anymore nervous on the big ones than I do on the little ones. Live game is live game to me


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

I am a hunter, I like the food it brings to my house... my question is why are some so high and lofty to pass judgement on hunters who enjoy the hunt and the meat... you can have every rack I have and you can eat them if you want... because what I see when people like you post is.... greed and ego,, not a hunter... I think you should take up tidly winks so you can brag about how good you are.... I will take a doe, or legal buck any where any time... I got squirrels eatin bone out in the back yard.... I intentionally took a dandy 4 point cull in west texas this past season..... 


READ THIS.... 

now he cant pass on his very, very poor genetics, two of his 
off spring were standing beside him when I shot him too!!!! but guess what... he sure has been good eatin!!!! freakin 3.5 year old with forks and no brow tines.... but of course if I was your kind of hunter.... I would bad mouth the ranch for having deer that dont look like they been eating atomic waste!!!!!


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

cwoods said:


> Guess we have deer hunters and trophey hunters.I think this debate could go on for years!


And years, and years...


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## El Boone (May 25, 2009)

ryan h said:


> because when you let that 2 1/2 year old 8 point go in bow season some one will shoot it in gun season


Thats the worst excuse.

If you kill him, you KNOW hes not going to make it. If you pass on him, youve at least given him a chance.

Up here its all a speed contest. Its not the size of the rack, or the body size, its how fast they can kill it. If I had a buck for every time ive heard a guy say "I got my buck 15 minutes into the season this year" id be a rich man. Doesnt matter if its a basket rack or a behemoth, its all about who can kill theirs first.

If its just about speed, shoot a doe. We have units with excess doe tags EVERY year, guys refuse to shoot does. We have a overpopulation of whitetails over most of the state. How do you reduce a population? You kill the females. But, its not macho to kill a doe. Most guys will shoot one doe and one buck, but this still does nothing towards overall herd management. 

Most "trophy" hunters I know, kill FAR more does in a year than they do bucks, as their trying to manage for bucks. Whats the generally accepted "ideal" population ratio for producing trophy bucks? 1:1. Most of my state is sitting around 4-5 does or more for every buck. Heck, my main hunting area is probably closer to 6-8 does for every buck.

Im a "trophy" hunter. I wont kill a buck unless im willing to put him on the wall. I passed two solid mid 140 bucks last fall that most guys would have jumped to whack. Ive shot one buck in the last three years. Ask me how many does ive shot? Its alot. I have a buddy (also a hardcore trophy hunter) who shot 19 does last year alone. I think he too has only shot 1 buck in the last three years.

I get sick of "meat" hunters bashing "trophy" hunters. Trophy hunters, on the average, do FAR more towards overall herd management than most "meat" hunters. Like I said, most "meat" hunters up here shoot one buck and one doe a year, they most likely do it all in the first 4 hours of the season just to "get it over with". And their the FIRST ones to jump on "trophy" hunters for being in the wrong.

If you dont care about antlers, shoot does. Most places with whitetails in this country have no shortage of flat tops and are most likely overpopulated anyway. So youll be doing the herd a favor at the same time.

I also dont buy into the "cull buck" theory at all. Theres to much we'll NEVER know about a wild deer to know the full story behind his genetic potential (how do you judge antler potential gained from the does side?). We'll also NEVER know the full story on that bucks life. Maybe he had a rough winter, a stressfull spring. We know stress factors can influence a bucks antler growth for SEVERAL YEARS. Theres just FAR to many reasons a buck may be sporting a less than "trophy" rack for us to make the decision that hes "inferior". We are getting but a mere glimpse into that animals life. Not near enough to make a decision that he's genetically inferior.


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## 5shot (Jan 27, 2008)

If I lived where you live I wouldnt shoot them either. but here in eastern n.c. if you get chance to shoot a buck with your bow you better do it. Remember trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. I hunt Illinois every fall and have chance at bucks everyday I hunt but here its a differernt story.


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## kingvjack (Mar 26, 2008)

SilentHntr. said:


> Its their choice, no one elses.....................want to hunt big bucks have at it, but knocking others for their success shows what a one sided jerk one is. No argument is a justification for questioning an others choice of game they take...................none.
> 
> Hunting for some is not what it is to others, but all are still hunters. People who think they are better or smarter then others are those with the problem, not the one who shoots what they want.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

El Boone said:


> Thats the worst excuse.
> 
> If you kill him, you KNOW hes not going to make it. If you pass on him, youve at least given him a chance.
> 
> ...



You and those with this mentality are the problem on forums an in todays deer woods. Yet after years of posts and loseing hunters you just do not get it still to this day do you .You have no reason or right to tell any other hunter what they should shoot. They are not your deer /bucks so get over yourself .Its high time the mentality you carry with you takes its last gasps of self serveitude life..If you want to shoot big bucks and lots of does then have at it "ITS YOUR HUNT" and good for you for doing it your way. Your shoulder must hurt from the self back patting you are doing over shooting that hand full of does "Herd manager". I guess the hand full of trophy hunters out there are killing the millions of deer every year in this country with almost no help from lowley meat hunters HUH!! What a joke wake up average hunters kill 90% of all the deer taken yearly trophy hunters are a very small segment of the total hunter numbers!!

But by all that is holy take your greed and superior attitude and stow it please!! .Its high time to climb down of those soap boxes your type are on and let everyone hunt their hunt take the deer they want and just stop preaching your brand of deer hunting is the only way to hunt .This has all but killed hunter recruitment as new hunters feel nothing but pressure and belittling by this poison that is spewed at them they are out there to just hunt and have fun its just a hobby that has a porpose and the fewer we are the fewer deer that fall .I say if you are haveing trubble takeing big bucks then change the way and where you hunt instaed of relying on other to pass and grow you your big one But if you are takeing big ones every year then you have nor gripe at all then do you !


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## El Boone (May 25, 2009)

5shot said:


> Remember trophy is in the eyes of the beholder.


Ill agree with this statement 100%.

My gripe, is with the guys that use the mentality "if its brown its down", and "you cant eat antlers" yet they insist on shooting bucks. 

There is no "trophy" to these guys as they just dont give a damn. Its all about who can fill their tags the fastest. They do LITTLE TO NOTHING towards herd management, and when you have a herd that is fast becoming a serious problem as to numbers, disease threat, car collision threat, etc, EVERYBODY needs to start doing more towards managing it. And from what I see, your "average meat hunter" does VERY LITTLE towards management of the overall herd.

These people are also the FIRST ones to complain about to many deer when they smoke one with their honda civic. Well, if your not killing does, doing your small part, than stop complaining. Its no different than the landowners that lock their land up tighter than a drum, allowing no hunting to take place on their land, than complaining later and asking for state compensation when they have 300 deer stacked up on their haystack all winter.


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## deadly (Mar 17, 2006)

I have asked many *veteran *hunters this very questions? Not younger or new hunters. 

They say because "it is Legal" and "because I can". They have a box of small racks in the garage and keep adding to it. It is not about the venison, cause there are plenty of doe in the area to shoot.

So my only reply is to make it illegal to shoot a small buck, to protect them. I am all for a "4" point on a side rule. This rule has made a huge difference in MO where this has been practiced for several years. You would see results within 2 years.


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## JDS-1 (Nov 15, 2007)

Why? Because meat is meat :hungry: If it's legal I'm shooting :archer: secret: antlers don't taste good)


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## El Boone (May 25, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> This has all but killed hunter recruitment as new hunters feel nothing but pressure and belittling by this poison that is spewed at them they are out there to just hunt and have fun its just a hobby that has a porpose and the fewer we are the fewer deer that fall .


Thats complete BS and I dont buy it for one second.

Video games, four million TV channels, internet, urbanization, and the multitude of other modern day devices that werent around 20-30 years ago are whats killing hunting. Not to mention the general laziness and "instant gratification" of todays youth.

Also, I dont know what its like in your neck of the woods, but we have NO SHORTAGE of new hunters up here.


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## eastx (Dec 30, 2008)

*Come hunt where I stay. . .*

In East Texas about 14-15 surrounding counties have adopted an interesting restriction, this will be the 4th season. 2 doe through the first 2 weeks of gun season, 2 bucks all season. . . but legal bucks are as follows, spike, one unbranched antler, or 12" or greater inside spread, and only one buck may be 12" or greater inside spread. So my hunting theory here where I live is to shoot the first legal deer that walks by my stand, hopefully I get the doe and the cull or spike in the first few weeks and can spend the rest of the season after a big one, but if another cull or spike walks past, I'm trying to fill a freezer, not a wall.


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## last person (Feb 9, 2009)

I shoot little deer. Does or bucks, if they come by. Why? They are just so damn tasty.


I also shot big deer. Why? They fill the freezer. I can't eat something hangin' on the wall. 


But I'm not going to bash the guy that hunts for trophies, just like he shouldn't bash me. Pretty simple really, we are both just doing what we do.


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## Hoyt Alpha32 (Apr 19, 2009)

Come and try hunting public land in PA. They recently changed the laws on how big a buck has to be to be taken and now all the deer you see are just below legal standards. I understand the argument for leaving small bucks go, but not all of us have the same opportunity to harvest large bucks. I have gone several seasons where you might only see two or three spike bucks. Here in PA we have an insane number of Rifle hunters, and they have just as much of a right as I do to take a deer. You can't knock someone for shooting a small buck. You should just be thankful that you hunt somewhere that you have the opportunity to do so. Not all of us are so fortunate.


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## deadly (Mar 17, 2006)

Hoyt Alpha32 said:


> Come and try hunting public land in PA. They recently changed the laws on how big a buck has to be to be taken and now all the deer you see are just below legal standards. I understand the argument for leaving small bucks go, but not all of us have the same opportunity to harvest large bucks. I have gone several seasons where you might only see two or three spike bucks. Here in PA we have an insane number of Rifle hunters, and they have just as much of a right as I do to take a deer. You can't knock someone for shooting a small buck. You should just be thankful that you hunt somewhere that you have the opportunity to do so. Not all of us are so fortunate.


I do not buy it. :zip:

I hunted State Land in MICH for 15 years and a 4 point rule would do wonders for the deer herd. Problem is no one wants to give it a chance. This would allow more bucks to survive and give the hunter a chance at shooting a nice buck.


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## Hoyt Alpha32 (Apr 19, 2009)

We have a three point rule now. It was put into effect by the "great" Gary Alt. The guy who has written the book on Deer Management here in PA. Talk to anyone who hunts in PA. The deer population on public land is taking a beating. They also moved the doe season to the first three days of buck season (rifle) here. So now you have guys that would have never shot a doe before, buying tags so that they can shoot any deer that steps in front of them, aside from a small buck. The only places in the state the deer herds are thriving are in the counties surrounding major urban areas. For an example, the WMU that covers Philadelphia county and the surrounding areas has had there doe tags increased by 22,000 this year. All the deer are thriving on private land in urban counties. But good luck getting permission to hunt in any of those counties, all the land is locked down tighter than a maximum security prison. Here in PA, changing the requirements for a "legal" antlered deer has just made a joke of the whole system. It is no different than using a "slot limit" for fishing. All the fish are either an inch too short, or way too big. Unfortunately, here in PA, public land big bucks are a thing of legend.


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## deadly (Mar 17, 2006)

Hoyt Alpha32 said:


> We have a three point rule now. It was put into effect by the "great" Gary Alt. The guy who has written the book on Deer Management here in PA. Talk to anyone who hunts in PA. The deer population on public land is taking a beating. They also moved the doe season to the first three days of buck season (rifle) here. So now you have guys that would have never shot a doe before, buying tags so that they can shoot any deer that steps in front of them, aside from a small buck. The only places in the state the deer herds are thriving are in the counties surrounding major urban areas. For an example, the WMU that covers Philadelphia county and the surrounding areas has had there doe tags increased by 22,000 this year. All the deer are thriving on private land in urban counties. But good luck getting permission to hunt in any of those counties, all the land is locked down tighter than a maximum security prison. Here in PA, changing the requirements for a "legal" antlered deer has just made a joke of the whole system. It is no different than using a "slot limit" for fishing. All the fish are either an inch too short, or way too big. Unfortunately, here in PA, public land big bucks are a thing of legend.



The problem lies with the PDNR. They are allowing too many doe to be killed. Must protect both Bucks and Doe. Most of the Country's DNR are being bought and poisoned by the Insrance Lobby and Farm Bureaus. They believe that you cannot kill enough deer.


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## Hoyt Alpha32 (Apr 19, 2009)

No Argument Here. The Deer Herds in the rural part of the state are getting wiped out.


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## swpahoythunter (Oct 9, 2005)

Hoyt Alpha32 said:


> Here in PA, changing the requirements for a "legal" antlered deer has just made a joke of the whole system. It is no different than using a "slot limit" for fishing. All the fish are either an inch too short, or way too big. Unfortunately, here in PA, public land big bucks are a thing of legend.


I don't know what rock you've been living under, but I've been seeing some darn nice bucks harvested in the past few years in PA. I think the antler restriction is a great thing and it has been working to improve the quality of bucks. My only complaint is I feel it should be in place for everyone and not let the some be able to harvest smaller bucks. And it would work much better if some 'renegades' would follow the rules put in place. 

Anyways, I would love to shoot P&Y bucks year after year, but that is next to impossible in my area. All animals harvested are trophies, especially with a bow.


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

deadly said:


> I do not buy it. :zip:
> 
> I hunted State Land in MICH for 15 years and a 4 point rule would do wonders for the deer herd. Problem is no one wants to give it a chance. This would allow more bucks to survive and give the hunter a chance at shooting a nice buck.


I also hunt state land here in Michigan, and I have a lot of fun just the way it is. Shoot what I want not what other people tell me to. I hope the DNR leaves it just the way it is. Things never get better when the goverment gets more involved. But as always the ones here in Michigan with the most money wil win. Good luck.


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## rocklocker2 (Feb 12, 2007)

*wasted*

if ya dont like my freezer filling take a trip to the landfills near Rochester NY after deer season,they come downstate ,shoot a buck go back up home and ride around with the trophy on the car for a couple days and then to the dump.i eat what i shoot.my trophy wall just has pics of ex wives on it


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

El Boone said:


> Thats complete BS and I dont buy it for one second.
> 
> Video games, four million TV channels, internet, urbanization, and the multitude of other modern day devices that werent around 20-30 years ago are whats killing hunting. Not to mention the general laziness and "instant gratification" of todays youth.
> 
> Also, I dont know what its like in your neck of the woods, but we have NO SHORTAGE of new hunters up here.


OK OK what ever I guess it is true but I always wanted to beleive that the text books were wrong on this one but thoses at the center of a problem and or one of the main contributeing factors are always blinded too that fact untill its just absalutely thrown into their face and blows up around them . Todays young or as a matter of a fact most anyone will not take any belittling or tie raids by those who are all about their own adjenda for veryu long before they quit whatever the browbeater is involved with or thay will strain harder aginsty that person till all contact is severed! 

The only BS on here is the self serving, greedy ,power hungery mostly" wanabe" trophy hunters expecting everyone to take a back seat or bow out so they can virtually be given all rights to every big buck or any buck out there .That is what is wrong with hunting today it has lost its true meaning and direction .Every hunter should always shoot what the want legaly to hell with others growning and whineing!!


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## flybub (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm in Ohio and the area I hunt is saturated with Amish and farmers who would rather shoot the deer and leave them lay so they don't damage their crops. I hunt my grandparents property and it is only 10 acres of woods and the surrounding woods is all amish. I have been hunting there 3 years and last year in the last week of the season was the first deer I had ever seen in my woods. He was a 2.5 yr old 6 pt. and he was put in my freezer. I have done everything I can think of, I even attempted to lease the surrounding property from the amish but they said no and they keep on slaughtering them. It's a shame when I go to my stand in the morning I usually see 11 or so buggies parked along side of the road. I don't know about does but I do know they took 5 - 4 pointers last year and 7 spikes. That was just during bow, when gun season rolls around it looks like the amish are going to battle. They are literally everywhere! So I'm suprised I even got a shot at one let alone see one. So if the oppertunity for me comes around to take a deer I will take it. I have 3 little kids at home and a loving wife who is willing to work extra hours so I can take the time off work to hunt and still get bills paid. Do I care what other people may say to me about what I shoot....nope. 

Don't get me wrong, if I had the property to manage the deer on my own, I would pass up on the small bucks and manage the does but I don't have that luxury. My wife and kids love the jerkey and bologna along with the steaks, so if I can give them that I will. I will not justify what I shoot, period.


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## GETMRUTN (Mar 5, 2009)

After reading through this thread, It makes me proud that so many of us hunt ethically. I myself have been hunting since I was 9 years of age and am now 40 with 5 kids. I shot my first deer at 9 years with my dad in southern Ohio and was the happiest kid on the planet. I had that same feeling when my two boys did the same. I grew up in central OH and i know what Big deer are and still hunt southern Ohio to this day. I will continue to shoot at whatever i need to and put meat in the freezer because my kids all eat it. I hunt BIG BUCK area and still shoot at a mature buck or doe if the shot is there regardless if it has big bones on his head. And my boys understand that as well. 

So I say this, for all of us that hunt for the pure joy of hunting and teaching our children to do the same is the most important thing. So enjoy hunting and stop acting like your are some gift to hunting. SHUT UP!!


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Some people are hunting for meat.....*

This thread seemed rather pointless to me....But after reading the posts....and by the way I really liked the deer antler Cabinet pulls....Thats awesome...I have to say that there is no reason to pick on any hunter that takes any deer at any time legally. I do not always hunt for just big bucks...yes I do take my fair share of rackers....However i also hunt for meat...I took 20 deer last year between NJ and VT....the bag limits are so liberal in NJ and there is an abundance of deer there as well. So...with that said....Only 5 of those deer total were bucks....couple big uns....couple skippers...But hey...they all taste great !

If a man or womanhas the time to put in to hunt big bucks ..great....if not...then by all means..hunting is hunting....and never be ashamed for taking what you are hunting for. And remember...Take a kid hunting.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

V.A.S.A said:


> This thread seemed rather pointless to me....But after reading the posts....and by the way I really liked the deer antler Cabinet pulls....Thats awesome...I have to say that there is no reason to pick on any hunter that takes any deer at any time legally. I do not always hunt for just big bucks...yes I do take my fair share of rackers....However i also hunt for meat...I took 20 deer last year between NJ and VT....the bag limits are so liberal in NJ and there is an abundance of deer there as well. So...with that said....Only 5 of those deer total were bucks....couple big uns....couple skippers...But hey...they all taste great !
> 
> If a man or womanhas the time to put in to hunt big bucks ..great....if not...then by all means..hunting is hunting....and never be ashamed for taking what you are hunting for. And remember...Take a kid hunting.


I sure am glad you got those couple of skippers. You probably would have starved to death with only 18 deer in the freezer instead of 20.


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## zhunter62 (Feb 3, 2007)

it amazes me how long this thread has stayed up here. who give a flying **** what people think about what i shoot. and if they feel inclinde to put in the opioions without me asking, my reply is "did i ask you". i am a trophy hunter, in the fact that every deer i kill is a trophy, whether that be a doe, spike, basket rack or booner. there all trophies. all ends to a good hunt.


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## Rupypug (Oct 24, 2006)

When you hunt public land and you enjoy hunting, you shoot whatever is legal. We go for a week or two at a time sometimes without seeing a deer. That is hunting. Trophy hunting is big bucks only and it is usually in a place where you can see forever or the hunt is guided. Jmo


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## guckie (Jul 26, 2007)

I waited 20 years for my first deer. It was a button buck, it was a trophy. I have only seen one nice rack in my life, I'm now 38. I am tired of the trophy mentality of these guys shooting in fenced areas or wherever they shoot. With all of that said, if I believed that I had a slim chance of shooting a "quality" (as many call them) buck, I would not shoot a small one. I believe that managing the herd is important, however, not all of us have the opportunity to ever shoot a nice buck like those seen on tv.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

deadly said:


> I do not buy it. :zip:
> 
> I hunted State Land in MICH for 15 years and a 4 point rule would do wonders for the deer herd. Problem is no one wants to give it a chance. This would allow more bucks to survive and give the hunter a chance at shooting a nice buck.


You might not buy it but it's true in some areas. Also the biggest problem I've seen with PA's AR is there are a good number of "illegal" bucks being shot and left to rot. I found two such bucks after this past rifle season. Great shots and the deer were on field edges. AR is good for the most part but there is an ugly side of it as well. :darkbeer:


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

GETMRUTN said:


> ........So I say this, for all of us that hunt for the pure joy of hunting and teaching our children to do the same is the most important thing. So enjoy hunting and stop acting like your are some gift to hunting. SHUT UP!!


:thumbs_up:cheers:


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## goodnottygy (Jan 29, 2009)

OMG! Here we go again! I think we should rephrase this.... "Why would anyone from the mid west shoot small bucks? 
It is tiring to me, when I see some barely legal dork is shot, especially if they are veteran hunters. I am lucky to hunt around people that pass on small bucks. It makes no sense to me, what so ever to shoot a small buck, when we need to thin out the does to start with! Shoot a doe for the meat and let the young bucks grow!


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## Prodigyoutdoors (Jul 3, 2005)

standards are 1 thing but this whole " if i dont someone else will" is BS.


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## goodnottygy (Jan 29, 2009)

tcooll77 said:


> standards are 1 thing but this whole " if i dont someone else will" is BS.


 That is true..... the ones that shoot the young bucks, cannot seem to figure out why they cannot kill big deer.:mg:


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## Northern B. H. (Feb 10, 2009)

When I started hunting I'd never heard of the Record Clubs and antler size had nothing to do with the decision to shoot a deer. Well, that's not quite true - my Dad could get pretty upset if we shot a deer with big antlers that was so tough it had to be made into hamburger or sausage before you could eat it. I've been around so called big deer, based on antler size, all my adult life. As a taxidermist I have mounted dozens of deer, both white tail and mule, that place well up in the record books, including the biggest white tail ever shot. As a bow hunter I've shot several that would be well up in the record books but I have no interest in registering any of them and some I've used for rattling antlers. The deer that's going to impress me more than any of the above is the first deer my grandson takes with a bow! I hope I've got my priorities in order.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

goodnottygy said:


> That is true..... the ones that shoot the young bucks, cannot seem to figure out why they cannot kill big deer.:mg:


You guys assume that they are not killing some good ones and they may be .Stop crying about what others shoot and worry about your own deer hunting on your land and you will live longer with fewer ulcers!!


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## coweye (May 23, 2009)

saying you only shot big bucks is like saying I only Kiss pretty girls. If nobody is looking I'll kill them even with spots, and if nobody looking look out ladys.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

I quit killing baby bucks years ago. I was one who had/has a cardboard box FILLED with basket racks(0ver 60 bow killed deer and over 40 with guns)....it just wasnt challenging any longer to shoot dinks....I can do that anytime just about. If I want meat, I kill 2-4 does each year for the freezer.....If the Buck isnt a 2-3 1/2 year old and at least 125-130+ inches I dont even take my bow off the hook .....


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

I like Meat said:


> I quit killing baby bucks years ago. I was one who had/has a cardboard box FILLED with basket racks(0ver 60 bow killed deer and over 40 with guns)....it just wasnt challenging any longer to shoot dinks....I can do that anytime just about. If I want meat, I kill 2-4 does each year for the freezer.....If the Buck isnt a 2-3 1/2 year old and at least 125-130+ inches I dont even take my bow off the hook .....


I have no doubt you do take a bunch of does but maybe you would like to post pics of all those pope and young size bucks to try to convince those who just shoot any buck to wait and since I am in the same state I would like to see all them big ones too.:embara:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I like Meat said:


> *I quit killing baby bucks years ago*. .....


So you have done it. I'm guessing you still had fun doing it too.


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## rx7dryver (Mar 14, 2009)

I shoot does instead of bucks most of the time and only harvest a fraction of the deer that I see. 

But IMO as long as the venison goes to good use I have no problem with anyone harvesting a small buck. The one thing that I cannot stand is trophy hunters that go to a caged hunt a kill a deer over bait so that they can have a trophy on a wall.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Unless you bought my tag or own the land I hunt on then it is none of your business what I shoot. If its legal and I am inclined to shoot it then that is my choice and no one elses. 


I dont understand why this is so hard for some to understand???


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## LewJonesRd25 (Aug 17, 2005)

Now of course I did not read all of the posts, because of there being 14 pages worth, but I did read some of them. In posting this I am thinking about someone's thoughts on why people kill small deer, and my response is what does it matter? I love running into people who are only after "big deer" but yet have never killed a single deer at all. Its called realistic expectations and many don't have them. Not every hunter has the resources (land) or capabilities to kill big deer or a deer at all every year. Matter of fact most people who kill "big deer" is simply because of luck and not skill. By this I mean luck in the fact that a big deer walks by them and they are lucky enough to kill it. We live in a world where people are always wanting to keep up with everyone else. Like I said before its called realistic expectations. Just look at our economy, its not just the banks fault were in this mess, its people just like you and me not living with realistic expectations.


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## stlmodroptine (Aug 26, 2008)

WHat I kill is my businuess. As long as I don't brake any laws, then I dont care. There are way to many laws in our country, and we are losing rights everyday. So, when it comes to feeding myself, and my family, everyone needs to stay the heck out of it.

I hunt with a camp full of "old timers." They have been hunting the missouri ozarks for generations. We are not in Missouri farm country where the bucks get huge. We are down in the acorn fed deer that weigh less then I do( and I'm a little guy). My hunting camp has hundreds of deer logged with storys and photographs (nobody every "scored" a rack, because nobody ever cared. The money pool actually went to the deer that weighed the most, buck or doe). Now, from looking at all the photographs and talking to all the camp members, there is only on buck that would have scored B&C. Who cares. My family and friends have hunted/are hunting for reasons other than taking huge deer. I am just as impressed by a little rack as I am by a p&y.

I like logging onto this site and seeing all the pictures. I get just as excited from seeing one of those scrawny basket racks from Florida or South Carolina, as I do from seeing one of those big tuff ***** P&Y's from Iowa. 

So, I know where I stand, and so does everyone else. Don't take away my rights. My family doesnt spend huge amounts of $$ to own land for people to tell us we can only shoot this or that.


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## RightWing (Aug 22, 2004)

*Great thread..*



willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


+1 Well said my friend. Worry about your own decisions more and other people's decisions less.


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## talon1961 (Mar 13, 2008)

I think it just boils down to one question; why do you hunt? Is it for the pleasure of killing something? Is it just for the sake of killing an animal for the "trophy"? Is it to put meat on the table? Many people have different reasons for hunting and their "trophy" is in their own accomplishments. Hunting shouldn't be a competitive sport. It doesn't take any more skill or ability to arrow a big buck than a small one or even a doe for that matter. In my part of Arkansas, It is not unusual for me to see a half dozen bucks or more in a given day, however I may go the entire season and not see a single P&Y class buck. I usually try to fill two of my tags (at least one doe) for freezer meat and save one for a "big" buck. I work as hard as anyone else on my woodsmanship and hunting skills, and practice non-stop with my bow. If I desire to finish my tags on a small basket racked 6 or 8 pt, its still a "trophy" in my book. I have many racks on the wall gathering dust. Quite a few exceeding 150 B&C, and all on public land! If I had access to a large tract of private land with food plots, feeders, game-cams, etc. then I might be a little more selective.


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## davejohnson2 (Mar 20, 2008)

talon1961 said:


> I think it just boils down to one question; why do you hunt? Is it for the pleasure of killing something? Is it just for the sake of killing an animal for the "trophy"? Is it to put meat on the table? Many people have different reasons for hunting and their "trophy" is in their own accomplishments. Hunting shouldn't be a competitive sport. It doesn't take any more skill or ability to arrow a big buck than a small one or even a doe for that matter. In my part of Arkansas, It is not unusual for me to see a half dozen bucks or more in a given day, however I may go the entire season and not see a single P&Y class buck. I usually try to fill two of my tags (at least one doe) for freezer meat and save one for a "big" buck. I work as hard as anyone else on my woodsmanship and hunting skills, and practice non-stop with my bow. If I desire to finish my tags on a small basket racked 6 or 8 pt, its still a "trophy" in my book. I have many racks on the wall gathering dust. Quite a few exceeding 150 B&C, and all on public land! If I had access to a large tract of private land with food plots, feeders, game-cams, etc. then I might be a little more selective.


this is exactly right. now in my area it may take all year to get a few bucks in bow range. all depends on the area


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

well i shoot what i want now, tryed only shooting deer with 3 pts on 1 side for about 5 years, had some good bucks, around passed a few 8pts. up as well, new poeple moved in, they do- if its brown it goes down.QDM is crap will never support it again in ny . this is not Pike Co. why grow big deer so . someone else can shoot them.i want to shoot a 4 pt just to get qdm people upset .there are some guys that shoot every deer they can get- never eat beef all year qdm ? i do not think so :sad:


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*There is always one .....*



WhitetailChaser said:


> I sure am glad you got those couple of skippers. You probably would have starved to death with only 18 deer in the freezer instead of 20.


Seems like no matter what the thread...or how friendly the conversation...there is always ONE....One out there to come and attack a guys thread or post even if it is a friendly one to begin with. Well I will elaborate on my post now that it has been called out in such a low and demeaning fashion......

1.) I shoot alot of deer in New Jersey every season....I am not the only one eating them....I have several friends that are not as financially stable...and cant afford to hunt etc...so I always take them some Good clean packaged venison every season....My nieghbor is a big guy....400 Lbs..big (glandular disorder) he loves venison..and it helps to save him money on his groceries. I have an average of 1500 lbs of venison packaged each season.. and I share at least 1000 pounds of it locally.

Thanks for the smart aleck comment though. I can take it...and at least if you are running your mudpuddle to me...you are leaving some one else alone.


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## Akhutr (Jan 22, 2007)

They taste good.


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## Catdaddy SC (Apr 30, 2009)

A couple of points.

Deer herds should be managed by season length and limits. Even with liberal limits, no one person should exploit the resource.

A proper limit will give each hunter the choice......being mature or young.....without hurting the herd.

Antler restrictions are not normally a good way of managing the herd. It leads to "high grading". Pennsylvania is the one exception state for antler restrictions. They have more deer hunters than deer. Antler restrictions ,for them, is about the only way to provide enough bucks to complete the breeding cycle.

Here in SC we have liberal deer hunting.....135 day season and no limit on bucks. That also really needs to be addressed. Many people kill 20-40 deer a year. I average about 1 buck every other year. We hunt managed property and attempt to harvest 4 1/2 year old bucks. Our antlers here are small compared to the midwest, but our mature whitetail is still a very hard accomplishment.....based on the low numbers and their nocturnal movement.


My .02


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I have no doubt you do take a bunch of does but maybe you would like to post pics of all those pope and young size bucks to try to convince those who just shoot any buck to wait and since I am in the same state I would like to see all them big ones too.:embara:


I have taken 5 P&Y class deer and dozens of bucks overall of all sizes (30 years + of killing deer/ gun and bow)....3 of the bucks can be seen by going to Deepriver Bowmen's(just search/type in Deepriverbowmen) web site and going to the "members only" section section(anyone can actually go there...LOL...)....go to the picture gallery(Jeff Valovich), you can click on the individual pic to enlarge, they can be seen there....I used to shoot the first buck that came by. Now, after many years deer hunting I want some thing more, so as the saying goes "Let them go so they will grow"....If i can take a big buck every 2-3 years(I'm due a big one, my last(9 pt 152") was taken in 2006) and pass those dinks to get to the one I want, so be it...I'm happy...As stated, there are always does for the freezer and time spent out there is all I want, I just enjoy being out there and hunting big(er) deer now..:darkbeer:


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

V.A.S.A said:


> Seems like no matter what the thread...or how friendly the conversation...there is always ONE....One out there to come and attack a guys thread or post even if it is a friendly one to begin with. Well I will elaborate on my post now that it has been called out in such a low and demeaning fashion......
> 
> 1.) I shoot alot of deer in New Jersey every season....I am not the only one eating them....I have several friends that are not as financially stable...and cant afford to hunt etc...so I always take them some Good clean packaged venison every season....My nieghbor is a big guy....400 Lbs..big (glandular disorder) he loves venison..and it helps to save him money on his groceries. I have an average of 1500 lbs of venison packaged each season.. and I share at least 1000 pounds of it locally.
> 
> Thanks for the smart aleck comment though. I can take it...and at least if you are running your mudpuddle to me...you are leaving some one else alone.


 I couldn't care less what your justification for shooting the young bucks is or how you've justified it in your mind, you're still wrong. The overutilized, overharvested (young bucks) portion of our resource does not exist to feed anybody, much less a friend of a friend of a friend of a guy who obviously has the skill, time, land, and harvest opportunities to provide otherwise. At least it doesn't to those who actually understand the relationship between sport hunting and conservation.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

WhitetailChaser said:


> The overutilized, overharvested (young bucks) portion of our resource does not exist to feed anybody.




Since you seem to have a direct pipeline to God, then please enlighten us as to why that portion of our resource exists.


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## GAMEDIC (Dec 21, 2004)

I think I will kill a couple of young bucks this year,so all these professional hunters on A.T. will have sleepless nights.What ever anyone kills and is legal for their area,and makes them happy I am all for it.It will keep the joy of hunting going.Its bad enough when you have so many non hunters against hunting,then you have so called hunters trying to take the joy of the outdoors from people.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

GAMEDIC said:


> I think I will kill a couple of young bucks this year,so all these professional hunters on A.T. will have sleepless nights


 From a hunting standpoint, I kinda like it. It's a way for the rookies to get out of the woods and out of the way of the real hunters so we can kill Codzilla at 12:00 when he comes crusing through after said rookie has left out with his "trophy".


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## rkeyhunter (Dec 4, 2007)

WhitetailChaser said:


> From a hunting standpoint, I kinda like it. It's a way for the rookies to get out of the woods and out of the way of the real hunters so we can kill Codzilla at 12:00 when he comes crusing through after said rookie has left out with his "trophy".


They make a pill for your condition, it's called Enzyte. See what it did for smilin bob.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

rkeyhunter said:


> They make a pill for your condition, it's called Enzyte. See what it did for smilin bob.


 You're kinda mixed up man. That's for those who need a little help in the manhood department. You know, like those who want to feel more like a "man" by killing a forkie for bowkill number 10 on the year. That way they can brag on a post like this one about how great of a hunter they are for being able to consistently kill the dumbest animal on planet earth. :lol3:

FWIW, I would never be an advocate of a law that totally outlaws the killing of young bucks. There are numerous reasons to allow limited harvest of young bucks (new hunters, folks that don't get out much, you name it), within biologically determined limits. I don't kill them myself, but fought hard for the right to do so (in moderation) to be maintained here in Alabama when we were pushing for changes in our laws that legally allowed an individual to kill over 100 bucks per year. It's folks like V.A.S.A. above, along with piles of resource abusers here in Alabama, that can screw up a local herd royally because they don't seem to know when to stop.....can't ever get enough......don't give a rip about the quality of hunting, herd health, nothing except their own egos and "thrill of the hunt" as I've heard it described here so many times. Yeah man, there's nothing like the "thrill" of popping a forkie for your 10th deer of the year.....will get the blood pumping man!  Or maybe the good old excuse...."it was legal"....you know kinda like abortion, which is also legal so it must be right too!

Some folks care about the resource and keep the big picture in mind when making harvest decisions, while others display the attributes of an only child that didn't get their backside tanned often enough growing up.


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## frickpse (Jun 22, 2007)

i could care less why people shoot little deer, if thats what they want to fill there tag with and be happy with the animal they chose. its hunting, we arent profesional hunters trying to get the biggest deer they can get on video to make a good television program. sure there are alot of big deer out there but for myself i only get to hunt on public land, and yes i pass on smaller deer but only cause i know there are mature deer in the area. that is my goal, a mature deer and if he only scores 120" im more than happy to shoot him. everyone has a different goal so shoot what you want as long as its legal


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

> Where I live here in NY people come up from NYC and LI and shoot anything that moves (literally) during gun season.


Many years back, I passed on two spike bucks that walked within 15 feet of where I was positioned. They walked down the valley and up the other side where some guy shot them out of his trailer window. Dressed out they weighed less than my 65 pound dog. The same guy shot up a neighbors tractor thinking it was a bear. Thanks to this guy there are several hundred acres in the Catskills now off limits to hunters. To add insult to injury, the farmers took to setting up feeding stations during hunting season to lure deer onto their property. Hopefully this resolved itself, but I never hunted during rifle season again.


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## MightyElkHntr (Dec 13, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Why would you shoot out your breeding population of mature bucks? Shoot the little ones and keep the big ones producing... to each his own. You do live in a choice place for whitetails. I would shoot any whitetail buck where I live - cause they ain't supposed to be there:mg::zip:


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Wow....*



WhitetailChaser said:


> I couldn't care less what your justification for shooting the young bucks is or how you've justified it in your mind, you're still wrong. The overutilized, overharvested (young bucks) portion of our resource does not exist to feed anybody, much less a friend of a friend of a friend of a guy who obviously has the skill, time, land, and harvest opportunities to provide otherwise. At least it doesn't to those who actually understand the relationship between sport hunting and conservation.


First of all.. I m not here to argue with anyone or keep anything going...So I will nod out of this errant conversation now before it goes next level...I do not justify anything I do when hunting.. I observe all of the laws and the limits for the areas I hunt in...I would like to add that I do not shoot button bucks but when we are seeing 13 spikeys or forkhorns in a group and only one or two racks in our area... we thin out the scrubbers....we kill some real smashers for our area...but sometimes we cull the mini wanna be bucks too. And as for there being a feed for our resources...We eat and utilize all of the deer we take. Thanks and best of luck to you. Take care everyone and most importantly...be safe and take a kid hunting,....heck take two kids hunting.


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## El Boone (May 25, 2009)

MightyElkHntr said:


> Why would you shoot out your breeding population of mature bucks? Shoot the little ones and keep the big ones producing... to each his own. You do live in a choice place for whitetails. I would shoot any whitetail buck where I live - cause they ain't supposed to be there:mg::zip:


I dont know about your area, but in mine, the immature bucks get PLENTY of breeding in. When you have a buck/doe ratio thats way out of whack (and overall severe deer overpopulation) this is what happens. The entire segment of the buck population gets to breed. One more reason to STOP killing "meat bucks" and start killing more "meat does".

A balanced buck to doe ratio not only makes for a healthier herd, and an easier to manage herd, but it also produces more QUALITY bucks.

But until the "meat" hunters stop blasting anything and everything that walks by, we'll never see that. We'll continue to see overpopulation, and than mother nature will step in and kill all across the board some winter. Your precious meat bucks, my precious trophy bucks, it wont matter as their all fair game in ma natures world. 

Than we'll see reduced tags and reduced hunting opportunity for a few years until everything recovers. We'll have a chance to start over, but, the greedy of us (trophy hunters are called this, but I call the so called "meat" hunters this too) will have their way and have a free for all again. All so they can shoot that forkhorn in the first 15 minutes of season and brag how fast they killed their buck. :sad:


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## bowgramp59 (Apr 12, 2007)

small bucks taste better than old big bucks !


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## 25ftup (Feb 2, 2009)

Come to mass and find a big buck, theyre here but few and far between. Gun season wipes them out


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## MTNHunt (Oct 27, 2007)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


+1...............It is up to the individual to decide what a trophy is.........when I let the arrow go, the last thing I am concerned about is if it measures up to other hunters standards.


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## goodnottygy (Jan 29, 2009)

bowgramp59 said:


> small bucks taste better than old big bucks !


 Does taste better than small bucks!


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

*Why people shoot small bucks ?*

1) they cant find a recipe for Horns ( antleers for you politicly correct people )

2) They dont care to wait 5 days for the shooter ,when the younger one will be more tender.

3) because they want to, & its thier tag, so shoot what you want & leave others to do as they like.


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## goodnottygy (Jan 29, 2009)

QuickReflex said:


> 1) they cant find a recipe for Horns ( antleers for you politicly correct people )
> 
> 2) They dont care to wait 5 days for the shooter ,when the younger one will be more tender.
> 
> 3) because they want to, & its thier tag, so shoot what you want & leave others to do as they like.


4) They thin if they let a buck walk by, someone over the hill will shoot it.
5) They have the "got a buck syndrome."
6) Because they are embarrassed if they "only" shoot a doe... but I admire a hunter that passes on young bucks and shoot a doe.


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## WyoHunter (Jul 19, 2003)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


 Well said Willie!


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## Deerslayer25 (Mar 11, 2006)

This is my take on it.

I would rather shoot a yearling and have some very tender and juice meat, then shoot a Large racked and old buck that will just hang on the wall and gathering dust.

To me it is a waste of a perfectly good breading buck for the area to turn it into a hat rack.


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## LeftemLeakin (Feb 19, 2007)




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## MJewell (Nov 24, 2007)

I would like to shoot and big buck 150+, but in my part of Ontario that just isn't an reality as you don't see them that big. If you see an 110" you are lucky. Don't get me wrong they are there but there is just to much big woods and swamps for them to hide in. If you do leave the smaller bucks to grow and the doe to populate the local poachers just take them anyways.

This year I was tagged out early, so I let an good hunting buddy use my T/C encore to try an find an nice buck opening day of our late season muzzleloader season. He seen 3 bucks and a doe in the first 2 hours passed them all up looking for something with just alittle more antler. The bucks range between 75-125" which is an good buck. An week later the 125" buck was shot by an poacher just 100 yards from where he'd let the deer walk.

Why do we shoot small deer, because they all eat the same and I maze well be eating it then an poacher that is just driving the roads looking for something to do.

Matt


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## Hoyt Alpha32 (Apr 19, 2009)

Craig Martin said:


> I don't know what rock you've been living under, but I've been seeing some darn nice bucks harvested in the past few years in PA. I think the antler restriction is a great thing and it has been working to improve the quality of bucks. My only complaint is I feel it should be in place for everyone and not let the some be able to harvest smaller bucks. And it would work much better if some 'renegades' would follow the rules put in place.
> 
> Anyways, I would love to shoot P&Y bucks year after year, but that is next to impossible in my area. All animals harvested are trophies, especially with a bow.



I have seen alot of nice bucks taken in PA recently as well. However, 99.9% of them are taken on private property. They were gonna be nice bucks regardless of the antler restrictions because they are essentially management deer. As I stated in my original post, I'm talking Public Land Deer, not private property. When was the last time you saw a picture of a big deer that was taken from a State Gameland or Park?


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## tstone (Feb 20, 2004)

...."it was legal"....you know kinda like abortion, which is also legal so it must be right too!



Dude, you're comparing a guy who shoots a (legal) forkhorn to an abortionist?
You really have got your knickers in a twist.


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

Some people want to shoot whatever walks by with horns, some want to hold out for bigger bucks and some shoot whatever walks by first. Just personal preference....but they all talk about the big bucks they see with passion seems like. 


If I was solely a meat hunt I would not shoot a large buck since I can get unlimited doe tags and does/yearlings taste much better anyways.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

tstone said:


> ...."it was legal"....you know kinda like abortion, which is also legal so it must be right too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Actually, that wasn't remotely what I was doing. But, I'll just make a safe assumption that your one of those that believe QDMer's are the Antichrist and fully understand why you drew that conclusion.


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## Carpshooter (Dec 27, 2008)

*I'm a life saver !*

:mg: I kill any large deer even bucks to save another human life from dying in a bad deer - auto mishap,I think that those who want big bucks should help put up high fences to keep'em off the roads or else keep their pets (if that what they are ) locked up if they are that important! 

My auto can get them any size year around with out even trying,glad I got good brakes !:darkbeer:


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

goodnottygy said:


> Does taste better than small bucks!


Actually...they taste the same!:doh: You gotta shoot em young though...before the hormones taint the meat!:darkbeer:


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

WhitetailChaser said:


> You're kinda mixed up man. That's for those who need a little help in the manhood department. You know, like those who want to feel more like a "man" by killing a forkie for bowkill number 10 on the year. That way they can brag on a post like this one about how great of a hunter they are for being able to consistently kill the dumbest animal on planet earth. :lol3:
> 
> FWIW, I would never be an advocate of a law that totally outlaws the killing of young bucks. There are numerous reasons to allow limited harvest of young bucks (new hunters, folks that don't get out much, you name it), within biologically determined limits. I don't kill them myself, but fought hard for the right to do so (in moderation) to be maintained here in Alabama when we were pushing for changes in our laws that legally allowed an individual to kill over 100 bucks per year. It's folks like V.A.S.A. above, along with piles of resource abusers here in Alabama, that can screw up a local herd royally because they don't seem to know when to stop.....can't ever get enough......don't give a rip about the quality of hunting, herd health, nothing except their own egos and "thrill of the hunt" as I've heard it described here so many times. Yeah man, there's nothing like the "thrill" of popping a forkie for your 10th deer of the year.....will get the blood pumping man!  Or maybe the good old excuse...."it was legal"....you know kinda like abortion, which is also legal so it must be right too!
> 
> *Some folks care about the resource and keep the big picture in mind when making harvest decisions, while others display the attributes of an only child that didn't get their backside tanned often enough growing up*.



Thats the biggest load of crap yet. The only thing you care about is big antlered deer. You could give two poops about the herd. I will say it again. You shoot what you want and I will shoot what I want. It has nothing to do with manhood or being a great hunter. Its about being outdoors and having fun. And until you pay for my tag or own the land I hunt on, you have *NO* right to tell me what to shoot or how to hunt.


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

poorman said:


> Thats the biggest load of crap yet. The only thing you care about is big antlered deer. You could give two poops about the herd. I will say it again. You shoot what you want and I will shoot what I want. It has nothing to do with manhood or being a great hunter. Its about being outdoors and having fun. And until you pay for my tag or own the land I hunt on, you have *NO* right to tell me what to shoot or how to hunt.


 Whatever you say skippy. I hope you kill a dink on opening day if that's your desire. Thankfully, you live in a state where you don't have the opportunity to legally kill a bunch of them like many states do.


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## davejohnson2 (Mar 20, 2008)

whjtetail chaser: you must be very fortunate for your area, if we went by your practices up here we would only shoot a buck every 8-10 years. 2 years ago NYS did a study on harvested bucks and 83% of the harvested bucks were 1 1/2. that leaves very few older bucks left in the herd. also, the buck to doe ratio is way outa wack. pretty much any decent basket rack is a nice buck. sure, there is the ocasional big buck, but i am not waiting 8 years to shoot one. i will shoot my basket racks and be happy


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## jason060788 (Jul 14, 2006)

*See signature below*


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

davejohnson2 said:


> whjtetail chaser: you must be very fortunate for your area, if we went by your practices up here we would only shoot a buck every 8-10 years. 2 years ago NYS did a study on harvested bucks and 83% of the harvested bucks were 1 1/2. that leaves very few older bucks left in the herd. also, the buck to doe ratio is way outa wack. pretty much any decent basket rack is a nice buck. sure, there is the ocasional big buck, but i am not waiting 8 years to shoot one. i will shoot my basket racks and be happy


 We've been in the exact same boat in the past here in Alabama my friend. When I was a teenager, I went through some seasons where I hunted every single Saturday and Sunday (both gun and bow) for 3.5 months solid, morning and evening, along with most every single day of a week vacation at Thanksgiving and a 2 week vacation in December, only to not lay eyes on a SINGLE buck the entire time. Hundreds and hundreds of hours sitting in a tree to never see a legal buck of any kind. Not a spike, not a forkie, NADA! I still wonder how I ever stuck it out, but I guess I'm kinda hardheaded like that. If your state is not willing to help, then you're only hope is to try and lead the effort.....set the example. Fortunately for me, I have a father who is a great deer hunter and because of that fellow deer hunters have always respected him and listened to him. He was pretty instrumental in what was essentially leading and developing a QDM cooperative (before QDMA had ever been established) between several clubs in the area I grew up in. Hence, the quality of hunting in our area has grown tremendously over the past 2 decades with people better managing the deer herds on their properties. I'm not sure why, but QDM has pretty much caught fire in our area as there are far more tracts under management than not these days. Heck, even our public land is pretty darn good (I don't hunt clubs anymore) because of great private landowners and clubs that own the surrounding properties. I know that my little part of Alabama will never be like the Midwest, but I kinda enjoy sitting even on public land here and letting 2.5 year old bucks walk off, when I still remember the days when I would have KILLED just to see a scraggly spike to let the air out of.


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## davejohnson2 (Mar 20, 2008)

​


WhitetailChaser said:


> We've been in the exact same boat in the past here in Alabama my friend. When I was a teenager, I went through some seasons where I hunted every single Saturday and Sunday (both gun and bow) for 3.5 months solid, morning and evening, along with most every single day of a week vacation at Thanksgiving and a 2 week vacation in December, only to not lay eyes on a SINGLE buck the entire time. Hundreds and hundreds of hours sitting in a tree to never see a legal buck of any kind. Not a spike, not a forkie, NADA! I still wonder how I ever stuck it out, but I guess I'm kinda hardheaded like that. If your state is not willing to help, then you're only hope is to try and lead the effort.....set the example. Fortunately for me, I have a father who is a great deer hunter and because of that fellow deer hunters have always respected him and listened to him. He was pretty instrumental in what was essentially leading and developing a QDM cooperative (before QDMA had ever been established) between several clubs in the area I grew up in. Hence, the quality of hunting in our area has grown tremendously over the past 2 decades with people better managing the deer herds on their properties. I'm not sure why, but QDM has pretty much caught fire in our area as there are far more tracts under management than not these days. Heck, even our public land is pretty darn good (I don't hunt clubs anymore) because of great private landowners and clubs that own the surrounding properties. I know that my little part of Alabama will never be like the Midwest, but I kinda enjoy sitting even on public land here and letting 2.5 year old bucks walk off, when I still remember the days when I would have KILLED just to see a scraggly spike to let the air out of.


it is nice to hear that efforts like that pay off but around here only my one neighbor tries to let little ones walk and he only owns 12 acres. i only had one buck in range last year but couldnt get a shot and it was a little 3 point that i eventually shot with my rifle b/c my friend wounded it with his bow.
out here its hillbilly deluxe and half the people dont even tag deer.  but then they complain when they dont see any deer


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## GUNDOGHTR (Jul 5, 2005)

*why?*

cause they taste good.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

WhitetailChaser said:


> Whatever you say skippy. I hope you kill a dink on opening day *if that's your desire*. Thankfully, you live in a state where you don't have the opportunity to legally kill a bunch of them like many states do.



This is the whole point I am trying to make. It is up to the hunter to make that call. It is his choice and he should not be looked down on because of it.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

WhitetailChaser said:


> We've been in the exact same boat in the past here in Alabama my friend. When I was a teenager, I went through some seasons where I hunted every single Saturday and Sunday (both gun and bow) for 3.5 months solid, morning and evening, along with most every single day of a week vacation at Thanksgiving and a 2 week vacation in December, only to not lay eyes on a SINGLE buck the entire time. Hundreds and hundreds of hours sitting in a tree to never see a legal buck of any kind. Not a spike, not a forkie, NADA! I still wonder how I ever stuck it out, but I guess I'm kinda hardheaded like that. If your state is not willing to help, then you're only hope is to try and lead the effort.....set the example. Fortunately for me, I have a father who is a great deer hunter and because of that fellow deer hunters have always respected him and listened to him. He was pretty instrumental in what was essentially leading and developing a QDM cooperative (before QDMA had ever been established) between several clubs in the area I grew up in. Hence, the quality of hunting in our area has grown tremendously over the past 2 decades with people better managing the deer herds on their properties. I'm not sure why, but QDM has pretty much caught fire in our area as there are far more tracts under management than not these days. Heck, even our public land is pretty darn good (I don't hunt clubs anymore) because of great private landowners and clubs that own the surrounding properties. I know that my little part of Alabama will never be like the Midwest, but I kinda enjoy sitting even on public land here and letting 2.5 year old bucks walk off, when I still remember the days when I would have KILLED just to see a scraggly spike to let the air out of.


Not to bash you but for a young, learning or ,clueless hunters not seeing any bucks for years several seasons when just starting out is not that strange, or out of the ordinary .Deer hunting is a matureing and learning proccess for most hunters and lack of success for them is as prevalent today as it was 20 ,30 or,40 years ago .One of the first things new hunters want to do is blame other hunters takeing too many or the wrong deer or the lack of the targeted deer.But if we use a bit of deduction in this and you will see that there was bucks in the area and more than likely plenty of them .Here it is ---> you seen plenty of Doe and fawns in those early years I would bet didn't you .

So do you still think one or two bucks were running around covering every doe for miles ???? No way!! We as adult hunters know that just was not the case or we should have educated ourselves about the deer we hunt enough to relize that. Also we want to beleive that the reason we were not seeing bucks couldn't be that we just didn't understand them and was you and me and the fact that new hunters just are not good hunters who figured out how to take or hunt bucks in general.let alone see them consistantly.You need to relize you sold yourself on your management and hunting habits but they need to end at you and your area because no two areas ,deer herds ,or deer hunters are the same.And Qute frankly no hunter should be concerned whether they are makeing other hunters happy by the deer they take or pass as long as they fallow the hunting laws of their state.Hunting is a personal thing not a team sport ultimatly the meat that goes into our frezzers was put there solely by our own efforts and decissions to pull the trigger or drop the string in the feild on our hunt alone.


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## sbooy42 (Jan 2, 2007)

Small Bucks??? Not sure. Everyone's different and if its legal have fun

But I think here in MI, its a mentality thing. For some reason hunters think they have to shoot a buck, or they may loose their man card..
And for some reason many think its wrong to shoot a doe But I dont think I will ever understand the meat hunter who passes up numerous does to shoot a young buck and then plays the "cant eat the horns card"

But I'm guilty of this, I have a box full of horns in the garage that just set there and make we wonder why. 

I grew up some, and found out that shooting does is just as fun as bucks, great practice and taste better.. Plus I get to shoot five of them..
I came to the conclusion and view shooting small bucks like kids trophies, everyone gets one for participating..So as long as your playn and having fun great.

Personally I choose to shoot does for my freezer then donate..
The arrow does not fly at a buck unless its going on the wall because I just dont have any reason to shoot a small buck.....


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

Deerslayer25 said:


> This is my take on it.
> 
> I would rather shoot a yearling and have some very tender and juice meat, then shoot a Large racked and old buck that will just hang on the wall and gathering dust.
> 
> To me it is a waste of a perfectly good breading buck for the area to turn it into a hat rack.


You would seriously, PREFER to shoot a spike than a 150" buck? I don't care what anyone shoots legally. If you don't have the time, genetics, and access for opportunities, or if you just want meat. I understand why you would take a small buck when it walks by.

...... but I don't believe, if given a choice, hunters would shoot the spike if both deer were under their stands.


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## sbooy42 (Jan 2, 2007)

Cmarti said:


> ...... but I don't believe, if given a choice, hunters would shoot the spike if both deer were under their stands.


Ha..
Yeah I have a hard believing anyone lays in their bed the night before opening day dreaming about spikes & forks..


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## WhitetailChaser (Feb 15, 2006)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Not to bash you but for a young, learning or ,clueless hunters not seeing any bucks for years several seasons when just starting out is not that strange, or out of the ordinary


 I'll get back with you in a bit, when I've got a little more time bro (I'm kinda swamped at work for at least a few days here). You certainly bring up some great points.


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## 'Ike' (Jan 10, 2003)

*Damn!*

Knew this was going to be a 'barn burner'!!! :set1_STOOGE2:


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

*Last Word*

"A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be...time to commune with your inner soul as you share the outdoors with the birds, animals, and fish that live there." - Fred Bear


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

HankinsHunter said:


> Where I live here in NY people come up from NYC and LI and shoot anything that moves (literally) during gun season. Sometimes you just have to be happy with what walks your way, cause if you don't shoot it someone else is going to. So much for management.


not to mention that i have shot some 31/2 and 41/2 year old deer in sullivan county and they scored between 80 and 100'' so how old should i wait for


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## Backlash (Feb 18, 2008)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Why do people who have access to lots of large bucks and lots of land ask why people shoot small bucks?
walk a mile in my boots and you wouldn't even have to ask.


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## bbaker-25 (Apr 7, 2009)

shoot whatever you want and the hell with anyone who tells me any different:zip:


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## dylantowne (Mar 24, 2008)

Duke12 said:


> Big is all relative! A buck I would shoot in Louisiana and be proud of is a buck I would pass on in Ohio. Don't get me wrong I think we should pass on smaller bucks but every place is different.


I agree. Where I hunt pretty much anything basket 6 and bigger is acceptable. Gun hunters usually blow out all the big deer by pushing them. I wish I was in an area where I pass on 130" deer. Dont take it for granted.


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## bassmaster8989 (Oct 2, 2007)

*irritated*

I also get very irritated of the guys who hunt in the best land in their state and criticize the less fortunate hunters who are forced to hunt public land. or own land where the gene pool just isn't there. 

I have to bow hunt in public land that is very heavily pressured. I started scouting last year in February had the good trails marked and hunted 3 times a week. Didn't see a single buck. 

Could very well be hunter error, but had I seen something bigger than a spike, it was going into the freezer.


If you we're hunting with your son, and he saw a little 8 pointer basket rack and wanted to shoot because he had never killed a buck, would you say no?


Post's like that really get me going


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## Tom_in_CT (Mar 11, 2008)

TrophyHunter75 said:


> FullDraw, I invite you to PA to hunt the entire archery season so you can wait on a Illinois class buck. In fact, come out here 5 years in a row. Then come back a few weeks after archery season and hunt the two week rifle season with the 1.5 million other gun hunters.
> 
> It won't take you long to figure out the answer to your question.


+1 same here for the majority of land. Public land, you take what you can get. I can only be selective on certain pieces of private land. Public land and some private parcels are "if it's brown it's down".

Go 20 hunts without seeing a deer sometimes and a basket 8 seems like a good option


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## smartguys (Apr 6, 2009)

Please, anyone, please, describe WHY it matters? 

Spike, 4, 8, 10, 12, 14....???

When was it called 8-point-and-above-deer-hunting?

Last time I checked, my legal deer hunting tags, it said the following:

-Antlered
-Non-Antlered

Is the hunting goal antler points? Weight?

I hunt for the poor. I meal in my freezer. All others go to the poor. 1 deer = 120 servings or more, regardless of what's on top of the head.

Is there some stat that say deer numbers increase when only large bucks are taken?

It seems deer hunting is a little too macho at times. Hanging "trophies on walls, photos, etc.

Just enjoy what God has provided. The great outdoors & junting opportunities. 

Heck, sometimes I'm happy to just sit there without email.


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## hoythunterMI (Sep 24, 2009)

If you guys are so worried about putting meat in the freezer why not just shoot a doe instead of a 1 1/2 year old buck?


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## goblism (Apr 12, 2007)

hoythunterMI said:


> If you guys are so worried about putting meat in the freezer why not just shoot a doe instead of a 1 1/2 year old buck?


whats wrong with shooting a yearling buck? a buck is a buck, i try and hold out for a bigger buck, but at the end of the year the yearling buck is more satisfying than a doe or tag soup to me and a lot of the hunters out there.


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## Beazer (Feb 1, 2007)

sbooy42 said:


> Ha..
> Yeah I have a hard believing anyone lays in their bed the night before opening day dreaming about spikes & forks..


I surely don't, I dream about seeing deer at all. 

In two and half years of hunting this is what's been close enough, 35yds or closer, for me to shoot.....

2 spikes, 2 does. 

Of those four, three were with a bow and one was with a slug. I don't hunt for antlers I hunt for meat. That's why I shoot what I do. In fact, I haven't seen anything more than footprints and a glimpse, at dark, of a small basket rack. I shoot to eat and I eat what I shoot...plain and simple. 

I'm going to put a line in my sig to sum it all up....IF DEER DIDN'T HAVE ANTLERS WOULD ANYONE CARE WHO SHOOTS WHICH ONE???


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## Mike from Texas (May 15, 2004)

Why do some people give a flip about what other people shoot? 

Some people are not hung up on shooting the biggest buck in the world. They are happy to be out hunting and killing whatever walks by that is legal and floats their boat. 

Geeeesh, give it a rest already.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

Are you sorry you asked yet.


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## B-G-K (Sep 19, 2009)

Ill put it this way, some of your year a half bucks are bigger than our 2.5 bucks here in NY. A guy I know shot a 132" buck this past season and it was the SECOND HIGHEST buck on record in that county ( a large county too, whcih is mostly woods and farms). The #1 was 156 i believe.


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## LOST (Jun 22, 2007)

hoythunterMI said:


> If you guys are so worried about putting meat in the freezer why not just shoot a doe instead of a 1 1/2 year old buck?


The fact that I hunt for meat is the very reason I would put a 1 1/2-year-old buck in the freezer. I would not pass on a shot in the hopes that a doe comes out later, I'll take either one. We get 3 antlered and 3 antlerless tags a year. I will shoot whatever walks out that is legal until I reach those limits.


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## huntsman1024 (Aug 20, 2006)

I just hate how some of these threads are started as a veiled way to brag. We only shoot X-kind of buck and we only blah blah blah Not everyone is as lucky as some others and some of us are forced to hunt less than ideal or heavily hunted land. You already know the answer to the question you ask, but you feel the need to make yourself look superior by bringing it up.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

The question should of been way do other care what you shoot. If you have a licences and it doesn't say shoot big bucks only. A trophy is what in the eyes of the beholder. Who cares what other think


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## MI.Archer (Mar 20, 2007)

Wow that was hard to read ...



Bowdon said:


> The question should of been way do other care what you shoot. If you have a licences and it doesn't say shoot big bucks only. A trophy is what in the eyes of the beholder. Who cares what other think


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## grnxlt (Dec 19, 2006)

who cares???? They make more, seriously. Every year. I think they call it the rut or something 








But, I am all for antler restrictions I have seen first hand what the restrictions have done for PA....and it's all good


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## ole' bowhunter (Jan 8, 2007)

I learned a long time ago if you want to shoot a Deer you'd better take what you get a chance to take. Where I live if you let one walk, the guy accross the fence will take him. I'd like to take a 200+ Buck but to me any animal taken with a bow is a trophy.

I asked a Deer hunter one time if he only shot Buck's with good racks. His answer was "If it's brown it's down". He said he ate venison 365 days a year.


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## B-G-K (Sep 19, 2009)

Ill also say this... If every hunter around here hunted the way the OP did... shoot big bucks let the small ones go I would too. We have a 3 point on one side rule here and I follow that to a T. Last year I only saw 3 bucks meeting that, 2 small basket 6's and the 7 point I shot with a 15 inch spread. Around here my buck is a respectable buck. Until most hunter decide to let them grow bigger I'm not going to let an 80 or 90" buck walk because its gonna get shot by someone else and i wont kill a buck that year.


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## wicked1Joe (May 19, 2009)

I live in the land of small bucks (Southern California), and no shooting of does in the zones I hunt in...so if it is a legal buck...it dies for the meat.:darkbeer:


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## sheds188 (Sep 23, 2007)

each to their own!! I have killed several over the years.now I just watch the youngins.I killed my share and now I hunt bigger bucks but not a trophy hunter.I think If some one is happy to take a 4 point and it makes them happy and proud then I am very happy for um!! should not worry about what others are taking,its their own thing wheather personal goal or just having fun.leave it be.


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## nycbowhuntr (Jul 25, 2009)

i shot my first buck this year, and it was a spike, didnt really care how big it was, it was my first


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## bdgerfn20 (Feb 24, 2009)

I live in wisconsin and i just shot a doe around where i live where it is earn-a-buck so now i have a buck tag. So now i have a buck tage for here. This is my first year hunting down here because i usually hunt about 100 miles north on public land where i also have a buck tag for and if you see a deer..you shoot it. I am a meat hunter period. but since i got one in the freezer when im hunting down here im gonna wait for a nice buck until about december. And that is not. That said i am a public land hunter so theres no reason to pass on a small buck for it to get bigger. someone other smart hunter will shoot it. only reason im waiting for a big one is dont wanna hunt the rut with no buck tag. Ill go out on a limb and say that guy that posted this thread is a private land hunter. Got nothin against lettin one walk but im all for shootin a deer for the freezer


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## psu08 (Feb 22, 2007)

While I have no problem with others shooting whatever they legally want/can, I hate hearing people use the whole "if I don't shoot it someone else will" excuse. Sure the deer may get shot at some point by someone else, but it sure as hell isn't gonna mature if you shoot it. If you want to see it grow, pass it, If you're proud of it, shoot it; but, don't then try to justify your kill to others by saying you might as well have shot it because someone else would've anyway. If you're proud of your kill you shouldn't need to justify it.


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## trailinone (Sep 5, 2009)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


Right on. I'm with willie.
Chris


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## dt5150 (Oct 17, 2007)

i fully understand the logic, but here, you don't pass on deer. new england isn't exactly known for growing huge bucks or having tons of deer in general. i'm lucky to get 1 shot opportunity per season so when i get one, i take it.


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## tyepsu (Jun 9, 2007)

psu08 said:


> While I have no problem with others shooting whatever they legally want/can, I hate hearing people use the whole "if I don't shoot it someone else will" excuse. Sure the deer may get shot at some point by someone else, but it sure as hell isn't gonna mature if you shoot it. If you want to see it grow, pass it, If you're proud of it, shoot it; but, don't then try to justify your kill to others by saying you might as well have shot it because someone else would've anyway. If you're proud of your kill you shouldn't need to justify it.


Well said from a fellow PSU man. Growing up and hunting in Pa I know all too well the brown and it is down thinking. I grew up with many friends and family who still hold this thought process. Most of these hunters are the buy your license at wal mart the night before season and sit in the stand maybe the first day and one weekend type of hunters. I struggle to even call them hunters. The more I hunt and the more I learn the more I realize that the number one factor that is totally in hunters control to help and produce more mature bucks is to let the young ones walk. Not every state has the great soil and vegetations of the Iowas and Illinois and unless a hunter has a lot of land and monitors their deer very closely it is difficult to control genetics. Age however can be controlled if hunters work together. The meat hunters. Easy solution. Shoot does and plenty of them. I am not a meat hunter per say but I do this and give the meat to family and donate the rest to share the harvest. It also does something that many states including Pa need done. It helps to balance the doe to buck ratio. I think hunters from states that do not typically be regarded as big buck states struggle with is their approach to hunting. I remember reading once... where you set your goals is the standard you will achieve. Pa hunters set their standards so low that basket rack 1 1/2 year old bucks is all most expect to see. They do not have the self control to let that deer walk. Take a midwest hunter and most will pass that deer because they know what he will look like 2 years down the road. Many Pa hunters have not seen a buck older than 3 so they cannot logically add together that waiting those 2 years results in much nicer buck. It is not totally a trophy arguement either. Every population of any species needs animals in all age categories. Can you imagine if as humans everyone was an infant or teen? Adult bucks in the herd are a necessary part of having a healthy deer herd. I always laugh at the... if it is legal do it arguements. I guess maybe I just have higher standards than that. At what point does that way of thinking not work? If they make it legal to shoot pet deer in a 10X10 fenced in area are you going to do it?


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## silverado08 (Jul 14, 2007)

Been said plenty of times . Any deer with a bow is a trophy. I try to shoot a bigger deer than I have in the past.Not a trophy only hunter, I just love to hunt no matter the weapon - for me just another opportunity to be out there . I have no problem with Trophy only hunters but at some point the anti's are going to use that against us . I mean all of us (bow,gun stick whatever !), Some people are happy with a spike - good for them just don't shoot 4-5 of them !!


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Cmarti said:


> You would seriously, PREFER to shoot a spike than a 150" buck? I don't care what anyone shoots legally. If you don't have the time, genetics, and access for opportunities, or if you just want meat. I understand why you would take a small buck when it walks by.
> 
> ...... but I don't believe, if given a choice, hunters would shoot the spike if both deer were under their stands.


As hard as it is for some folks to believe, there are people that do not care about antlers at all. I know a few hunters that will use their only buck tag on a doe if she's the first deer to walk by. Some people just want the meat.

If AT, other hunting web sites, hunting shows, and magazines are your only sources on how or why everyone hunts I can see why you think everyone hunts for giant antlers. Most meat hunters don't brag at all, they shoot the deer they want and put it in the freezer.


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

sbooy42 said:


> Small Bucks??? Not sure. Everyone's different and if its legal have fun
> 
> But I think here in MI, its a mentality thing. For some reason hunters think they have to shoot a buck, or they may loose their man card..
> And for some reason many think its wrong to shoot a doe But I dont think I will ever understand the meat hunter who passes up numerous does to shoot a young buck and then plays the "cant eat the horns card"
> ...


I agree with this... I've gotta meat hunter buddy, I have NO problems with a meat hunter, not everyone wants/cares if they kill a big deer every year and that's fine. But here's my issue with it, my meat hunter buddy preaches this to everyone who will listen "I Only Want To Shoot A Doe!!!" yet he NEVER shoots a doe. I've been with him when he gained permission on pieces of land just because he told the landowner "I'm not gonna shoot your bucks, I only hunt for the meat and all I want to do is a shoot a doe or two off of your farm"...That makes the landowner happy because they want does gone since they have a ton of them and they destroy their crops, so they let him hunt on the "Only shoot a doe" clause...But every year he goes onto the "doe only" ground and whacks the first 1.5 year old buck he sees. As soon as he smokes a little buck he never mentions it to them, he drags it out, throws it in the truck and never breathes a word to the land owner about it...The thing is he's a really honest guy other than this. There are a few farms we hunt together around here too and he always tells me "I'll shoot the does on the farm and save the bucks for you" cause he knows I pass alot of young bucks up every year trying to let them get more age on them...Yet if he shoots anything on those farms it's always a 1.5 year old buck. We're friends so I let it slide for the most part, but I get so tired of hearing that one phrase "I only want to shoot a doe" a million times a year just to watch him hang his tag on a young buck every year. Last year he shot a 2.5 year old buck and his reason for shooting him was "Well he had an antler broke off down by the base on one side so I didnt think he'd ever make a big deer"..But dont forget, that half rack buck was with some more deer and he said half of them were does...So much for shooting a doe just because you want some meat.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

The straight low down for me is "I love to hunt" period!  And I love deer meat. :hungry: If it's legal and the opportunity is right, I'm shooting whatever I damn well please. And for those that want to complain about it, get bent I don't care. :elf_moon:


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## core-lok1 (Jul 20, 2007)

I hunted with Cajuns for years who put 140" horns in the gut bucket. Just saying.


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## fulldraw5 (Aug 24, 2008)

Amen!!!


willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

*Go hunting and stop asking stupid questions...............*

like anything in life why give a crap what someone else does as long as it is legal, do what you want...................your tag, legal kill, your choice. Now go hunting and enjoy life, its too short for stupid questions and wasting time like I am even answering them.............................oh thats right I was hunting since 5:00 am this morning and thats what others should do as well.


Good hunting and congrats to anyone who shoots any deer they like........

Silenthntr.


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## DenCMSC (Jul 30, 2007)

*"small" bucks*

Why not let folks shoot what they are happy with? Why must the "trophy hunters" always think that it has to be X number of points, or X inches wide? Maybe that fellow who shot the spindly 6 pointer only has the chance to hunt a very few days every year, and doesn't get the shot at a "mature buck" that someone who is in the woods far more might get...Is it any less a trophy to that fellow?

People, if we don't stick together, and quit with the in-fighting amoungst ourselves, the anti's will surely win. Shoot what makes you happy, and feeds your family. Be happy that we have the right to hunt in this country, and quit with the holier than thou attitudes.


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## bushwick (Sep 20, 2008)

*Mi @ gun season!!!!*

Unlike IL MI has a youth hunt @ 2 weeks rifle season @ 2 weeks muzzle season that amounts to over a month of gun hunting!!!!! I hunt IL will county @ clare county MI I see the difference in the deer but IL can only hunt with shotguns @ why don"t u tell them how long your gun season is!!!!!!!!!!


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## BigPoppa96 (Jun 2, 2007)

Becuase not everyone hunts for the rack. Some hunt for the meat and others for the enjoyment. Don't knock someone for their choices. If it is legal and they make the call, let that arrow fly. To each their own.


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## RAZORBACK_GIRL (Jul 6, 2005)

Of course this would be coming from someone from Central Illinois. Come hunt in some of the places other people hunt on this site and see how many years it takes you to kill a p&y. Very possibly never! And we aren't hunting 2000 acre ranches were no one else get to hunt. Most people are hunting public land were they might sit for days and not see anything.


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## GETMRUTN (Mar 5, 2009)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


x1. I am a DEER hunter and hunt mostly for meat. If I get a chance at a wall hanger then good for me. Don't tell me what I should kill. If I lived in a place like you then maybe it would change. But I don't so I'll shoot what I want. Thanks.


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## kgriff87 (Sep 25, 2009)

Don't hate on everyone from IL! Don't worry; not everyone has access to the prime ground. In fact, alot of us everyday hunters that don't have a 1500 acre family farm are loosing areas we used to hunt to this outfitting craze. What farmer in their right mind would pass up some of the outrageous prices high-rollers are willing to pay to do nothing more than hunt a couple of weeks a year? I'm not saying that we don't still have great opportunities, but the ground you see being hunted on TV is often areas that used to be available to average joes. Southeast Iowa, where I'm originally from, is the same story. I know I'm blessed to be able to hunt around here, but it seems like this becoming more and more a rich man's sport (which I'm not). Hang a million trail cameras to zero a monster's location, then set some guy who paid an *****load of money in the right spot at the right time. I'm frustrated and I'm rambling...


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## Supernaut88 (Mar 1, 2009)

MikeC said:


> I would like to see every state adopt management rules with a slot limit. 2.5 or older with less than 4 points and 8 pointers outside the ears (13-14" inside spread) and larger. Anything in between is off limits.
> We have 4 point to one side restriction in SW Pa and after the first 4-5 years, it's really working. Smallest buck I've seen so far this year was pretty decent 4 point.
> I also like the earn a buck program in some states - gotta shoot a doe to get a buck tag.
> 
> ...


We have 4 point to one side restriction in SW Pa and after the first 4-5 years, it's really working. Smallest buck I've seen so far this year was pretty decent 4 point.


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

Much of it comes from the maturing of a hunter. When you start hunting you "WANT' to kill something. Once you have a few under your belt you look for a little bigger Buck & after "MOST" get that out of their system they look for the "BIG" horns. In the past if you just Bowhunted (like me) you were only allowed ONE DEER, EITHER SEX & you were done. NOW, with extra DOE tags many hold that BUCK tag for something bigger & take those extra Does to satisfy their killing urge & meat for the freezer.
Now I have a son who has a few kills & he is starting to hold off for larger horns but he also has the bonus Antlerless tag. I also have a Daughter starting her 2nd year & has never drawn on a Deer-for her, I hope she gets a chance at ANY DEER & if it happens to be a smaller Buck that I or my son would pass-great.
I have never bought into the let em go to get bigger horns but do set Goals for myself on a Buck. I've eaten my Buck tag 6 years running now & I have passed on some pretty good Bucks (I wish my kids would get) BUT then, I'm starting my 53rd year as a Bowhunter.
Where you get to hunt is also another factor-not all get to hunt places where "horn" quality management can be practiced. Those who do should conider themselves very lucky. Good Luck in whatever you choose & have a great season.


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## MO_29 (Aug 11, 2008)

It's all in the eye of the beholder! I shot an 8 pointer that barely made it to 120's last bow season. This year I took a 130's 10 pointer. I am proud of both of them but some people would consider them small in my area and let them walk. My hunting buddy is that guy! He passed on a buck last year that he thought would only go 130's. It was the only thing he had an opportunity at the whole season. It presented a shot at the end of season last year for 1 final time and he shot it. IT GROSSED 147! I would love to shoot a booner. Fact is though I am going to shoot what I consider a good buck.


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## dillershortbow (Jan 24, 2004)

These dumb threads allways come from IL. You have some big farm raised deer...so what. why don`t you hunt for elk,moose , muleys, antalope, sheep,or bears? When all you have is farm raised whitetails i guess you can be picky.


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## DougKMN (Nov 7, 2006)

Kansas Bruisers said:


> As hard as it is for some folks to believe, there are people that do not care about antlers at all. I know a few hunters that will use their only buck tag on a doe if she's the first deer to walk by. Some people just want the meat.
> 
> If AT, other hunting web sites, hunting shows, and magazines are your only sources on how or why everyone hunts I can see why you think everyone hunts for giant antlers. Most meat hunters don't brag at all, they shoot the deer they want and put it in the freezer.


Or if they do brag, they brag about how full their freezer is. IMO, Fixation on horn, whether an animal will make P&Y or B&C, and outfitters will bring about the end of hunting far before PETA and other treehuggers do.


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## turkeygirl (Aug 13, 2006)

Come hunt NY...in face come hunt it during shotgun season...then open your mouth....where I hunt in NY... there's lots of deer...not alot of big ones...we don't have the genes that some states have...I love archery more and more each year because that is when I see bucks...after the shotgun opener, you will not see a buck, at least where I hunt...gone through the last couple years passing on small bucks on the opener...this year the first thing with antlers gets tagged because to me, it's about the meat and any size rack is something I am proud of to hang on my wall.

I saw a nice buck this fall...if he walks by, great, if I see something smaller and I like it, well I'm not afraid to pass on a bigger buck for something smaller.

It's all in the eye of the beholder...and I also think, whether you are a God fearing individual or not.... Sometimes I think people who wait for the big one to come by are just plain self-centered...and their ego is so inflated...


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## Roland Deschain (Mar 26, 2009)

bushwick said:


> Unlike IL MI has a youth hunt @ 2 weeks rifle season @ 2 weeks muzzle season that amounts to over a month of gun hunting!!!!! I hunt IL will county @ clare county MI I see the difference in the deer but IL can only hunt with shotguns @ why don"t u tell them how long your gun season is!!!!!!!!!!


Until Michigan does something to control the gun seasons better, things will never change here.

Instead of doing something intelligent, the DNR here has decided to extend and open MORE firearm seasons (Early Antlerless, Youth, extended Muzzleloader, late Antlerless).


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## turkeygirl (Aug 13, 2006)

Big rack, small rack, no rack...any deer is equal to me and I'm proud of any deer I tag. I'm not going to wait it out for a giant to walk by because in NY, that does not happen, unless you live by an urban/city area...why don't you come hunt NY, in fact during shotgun season, then open your mouth...some of you who live in states with giant deer are spoiled... Those of us in the northeast...well we appreciate what we have and what walks by the stand...I believe if it walks within range...God sent it to me to harvest....to feed us for the winter... Some of the knarly little racks I like better than the big ones...Each deer is different and equally a trophy...Hunting is not about "can I get the biggest rack in the county".


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## Beazer (Feb 1, 2007)

All deer I've shot were the only deer that happened to walk out. It's probably nice to be able to shoot a deer with a big rack to show to people, but I haven't seen any. I don't intend on letting my freezer go empty all year just because a spike was the only deer I had the chance to throw an arrow at. 

Bring out a buck and a doe, and I'll shoot whichever doesn't cause me to burn a tag. I get four doe tags and 12 days to shoot two does each. I get unlimited bucks all season....If you were filling your freezer what would you shoot? Which deer I shoot depends on what day it is...if it's a doe day, I'm shooting the doe because I don't have to tag her. If I have one tag left and two months of season, I'm shooting the buck regardless of size because I'll still be able to use my doe tag. 

Either way, my rationalization is worthless because I've never had more than one deer within range at a time. Bottom line, you can't eat antlers and I'm a hungry guy....I'm shooting what I can hit.


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## dashboard923 (Jan 2, 2008)

as for me, I have only been hunting for 3 years now and my first year hunting i had the chance to shoot a small three point. I know i should've let him go but come on, it was my first deer!


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## jmattp2005 (Dec 30, 2006)

_The prize is in the hunters mind....
If he thinks it is a monster to him then it is.. who is anyone to judge him??
Also many people like myself hunt to feed the family so what ever comes my way and I can feed my family I will kill it unless it is a fawn that is just me...
:darkbeer: _


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## LPBowhunter (Feb 17, 2009)

i will pray for you friend because this is an extremely touchy subject and they will eat you alive. btw i agree.


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

Here's a question for the meat hunters...
Will you pass up numerous does to hold out and shoot a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck then do nothing with the bucks antlers other than throw them in the scrap pile??? I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just asking a serious question. That is the only issue I have with my "meat" hunter buddy..He'll let does walk every day waiting on a young buck to get within range so he can kill him then he does nothing but throw the antlers away after he cleans the deer...But like I said before all he preaches is "I just want to shoot a doe" but he never takes a doe. 
If I'm strictly just going out to shoot a meat deer I'm gonna pop the first doe that gets within range...I've always thought they were a little better eating than bucks anyway.


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm born & raised in Ill. & moved 30 miles from my home town into Iowa several years back. Yes, I AM in Big Buck Country all my life. We in this part of the midwest are blessed with some of the biggest Deer in the world BUT I have ventured away from my home state & Bowhunted the smaller subspecies of Whitetail in the south & had a great time. Ark., La., Ms., N.C. as well as states like Il., Ia., Md., Ws., Mi., Co., N.Mex., & Mn.. I may have missed a few. Farm raised in the midwest-well, so they say BUT I have Bull Elk, Mule Deer, Sheep, Black Bears & Caribou to my credit along with a few other things like lots of Wild Hogs. It is like I said in an earlier post-it's the hunter that gets those kills under his belt & WHERE he is able to HUNT that may determine what is a trophy. I know if I had seen a 110 or 120 BUCK in N.C. it would be a monster & in my home state it would be one of a few I would be privvy to at least SEE.. Experience & Location DOES make a difference in our choosing what we are going to shoot.
For you southern fellas-we know your chances of a real big Deer are much less than those in the North But enjoy your time in the field. For the fellas in places like Pa. & Mi., unless the guys have hunted there they have no idea what many experience with hunting pressure or crazy seasons.
good Luck to you all.


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## Beazer (Feb 1, 2007)

J-Daddy said:


> Here's a question for the meat hunters...
> Will you pass up numerous does to hold out and shoot a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck then do nothing with the bucks antlers other than throw them in the scrap pile??? I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just asking a serious question. That is the only issue I have with my "meat" hunter buddy..He'll let does walk every day waiting on a young buck to get within range so he can kill him then he does nothing but throw the antlers away after he cleans the deer...But like I said before all he preaches is "I just want to shoot a doe" but he never takes a doe.
> If I'm strictly just going out to shoot a meat deer I'm gonna pop the first doe that gets within range...I've always thought they were a little better eating than bucks anyway.


As I believe I've said before, I see so few deer within range that I'm shooting it regardless. When the freezer's full, then I'll pick and choose. As for any antlers along the way, I'll let my kids play with them.


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## gold3499 (Mar 28, 2009)

*meat*

Some people don't care about trophies (I'm one of them). A basket size 6 is a trophy to me. So is a doe or a spike. Let people shoot whatever they want. It's not about horns for everybody.


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## ArnyND (Jul 21, 2009)

Guess you get what you deserve by starting a thread with "Why do people shoot such small bucks"

It's kind of like starting a thread that says, " Why isn't everyone as good a hunter as me?":clap:


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## ArnyND (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow...I didn't realize how long ago this thread was started!


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## BassWhacker (May 26, 2007)

I live in San Diego where your chance at a buck is few and far between. If you don't take the shot someone else will. forked horn or better and it wont last long.


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## GruBBworM (Sep 7, 2006)

2 word answer


Public Land 



if you dont shoot it next guy will!

Jon


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## WesternMAHunter (Sep 2, 2005)

I just think it is all relative to what part of the country you live in...
Some of the areas up here, you are lucky to get a buck of any size if any at all.


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## rutnstrut (Sep 16, 2003)

When people shoot young/immature bucks and are HAPPY with what they have shot I have no problem with that,I am happy for them. But when those same people justify why they shot that young buck,that's where I lose respect. The "if I don't shoot him someone else will" excuse is lame,if you kill him he sure as hell isn't going to get any older. Another poor justification is "I took a young one with bad genetics out of the herd" BULL,just fess up and say you wanted to kill something. There is no way it can be accurately determined of a bucks antler potential in his first year or two. The other guys that get old are the ones that shoot young bucks every year,but then turn around and whine about no mature bucks wher they hunt.


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## Brandon324 (Oct 12, 2007)

rutnstrut said:


> *When people shoot young/immature bucks and are HAPPY with what they have shot I have no problem with that,I am happy for them*. But when those same people justify why they shot that young buck,that's where I lose respect. The "if I don't shoot him someone else will" excuse is lame,if you kill him he sure as hell isn't going to get any older. Another poor justification is "I took a young one with bad genetics out of the herd" BULL,just fess up and say you wanted to kill something. There is no way it can be accurately determined of a bucks antler potential in his first year or two. *The other guys that get old are the ones that shoot young bucks every year,but then turn around and whine about no mature bucks wher they hunt.:confused*:


Exactly!! It's not dictating what people shoot. Trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I know guys that have shot countless bucks over their hunting lives and still shoot spikes and forks all while refusing to shoot does. Yet these guys are the first to complain about how there are no big bucks. I am a big proponent of shooting what makes you happy. But deer hunting is like most other things "you can't have your cake and eat it too".


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

You can't eat the horns...


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## MO_29 (Aug 11, 2008)

This thread is so funny! Everyone says the same thing in a different way. Is the person who started this not seeing any big bucks? Is someone shooting all of the young bucks on their land that have to potential to be monsters? You can't control what someone else does on land they have permission on. It is frustrating, but you will not change their mind. I have several tracks of land that I manage and I manage them all in different ways. I am a hunter and not an outfitter so hear me out. I have many friends and family that hunt with me. All have different interests so I try to give them what they want. I also have different pieces of property that have different hunters surrounding them. Some places I have I can manage for big mature bucks because the hunters around it do the same so on those farms you can only take a 130 or bigger. Some farms I have you can take anything that is legal because the hunters that surround it shoot anything that has 4 legs and a white tail. I match my hunters with the land. It works! I even hunt all of these farms. I go by the rules I have set for each farm. I have the patients to let a young buck walk, but if I am on one of the farms I can shoot anything legal then that is what I do. I have tried to let young bucks walk on the farms that are surrounded by hunters that shoot anything and it doesn't work because I find out later that the other hunters just shot him anyway. Hunt happy, live long, and enjoy every minute of it.


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## psu08 (Feb 22, 2007)

Brandon324 said:


> Exactly!! It's not dictating what people shoot. Trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I know guys that have shot countless bucks over their hunting lives and still shoot spikes and forks all while refusing to shoot does. Yet these guys are the first to complain about how there are no big bucks. I am a big proponent of shooting what makes you happy. But deer hunting is like most other things "*you can't have your cake and eat it too*".


Here in PA, the average hunter doesn't seem to get this. AR's have helped, but people are still shooting 1.5 y/o 6-8 pts then complaining that they aren't seeing anything bigger/more mature and that the genes in PA must just suck. If a young buck is legal, and a trophy to you, then shoot it; but, don't complain about the size of racks you're seeing, or even worse in my book claim that you had to shoot it because if you didn't someone else would've anyway.


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

Probably already been said, but not everyone cares about huge bucks.
Besides that, not everyone hunts an area where big bucks roam around.
That's the reality of it.
Who cares what people want to shoot?
Don't we have enough rules and regulations.
Trophies are in the eye of the beholder.


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## eodusmc (Aug 12, 2009)

come to NW FL and you will see why we kill small deer. 2 a day from mid oct to mid feb. and there are still more deer than you can shake a stick at. ohh and because your in America :darkbeer:, so long as it's legal of course.


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## GobGetrvideo (Dec 28, 2007)

LX_Shooter said:


> Come to Arkansas and say that after you've hunted here a while........



Attitudes like this is why our herd is like it is!!!! Really just pisses me off!!!!!!! Lead by example and not excusses!!!!!!


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

GruBBworM said:


> 2 word answer
> 
> 
> Public Land
> ...


Hmm... then what happened last year?? Looks like someone didn't shoot it to let it grow...... so apparently the next guy WON'T shoot it.


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## MushroomHound (Aug 18, 2005)

MikeC said:


> I would like to see every state adopt management rules with a slot limit. 2.5 or older with less than 4 points and 8 pointers outside the ears (13-14" inside spread) and larger. Anything in between is off limits.



I have a better idea....

WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN STATE! ukey:


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## MushroomHound (Aug 18, 2005)

The day hunting whitetails is limited to a rich mans trophy sport and nothing else is the day I will join the ranks of PETA and fight against it.

God did I just have to say that? ukey:


I'm going to go kill a spike buck tomorrow just to make sure that doesn't happen.


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## buzzman2 (Sep 9, 2007)

I can see both sides of the argument since I grew up in PA and now live in OH. 

When I first started hunting here, I passed bigger bucks than I had ever killed in PA. 

I can definitly say that the one thing I have noticed as a problem in PA is hunter mentality. I don't know what can be done to make it better. Collectively, hunters in OH tend to let smaller bucks walk. I had to adjust to that mentality in order to keep my "kill them all" tendencies from manifesting themselves.

Genetics may be better here in OH but I have seen some real big deer in the area that I lived, the terrain and agriculture and similar. 

So what came first, big bucks or hunters with the mentality to pass small ones?


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## wolfie104 (Sep 20, 2009)

yea, why do you guys shot those little ones? here is a pic of some of my better racks. maybe it will give you guys some motivation to shoot big ones like we do in west virginia... and yea, i hunt over a feeder!!!!!! whooohoooo.......


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

Another scenerio is some people as myself only get to hunt 1 maybe two times a week. So they shoot smaller deer to fill there tags. I know that I only hunt on Sarurday and maybe if lucky one late evening during the week. I haven't seen a trophy class deer while hunting in the last three years just does and small bucks. I usually try to take the does out.


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## ILDEERHUNTER (Mar 15, 2007)

How about I'll decide what I shoot as long as it is state legal. Why should I hold back so possibly someone else can harvest the same deer when it grows larger. I have more things in my life to prove my self worth than a deer mount on the wall.


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## ILDEERHUNTER (Mar 15, 2007)

MushroomHound said:


> The day hunting whitetails is limited to a rich mans trophy sport and nothing else is the day I will join the ranks of PETA and fight against it.
> 
> God did I just have to say that? ukey:
> 
> ...


Yea, what he said.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

Why do you care what I shoot?

I am sick and tired of others trying to tell me what a trophy is or should be.

Dan


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

I don't push my religion, political views, financial objectives, home style, bow brand, camo pattern or fitness standards on you. Don't push your hunting philosophy on me.


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## Rupypug (Oct 24, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Because it is called hunting. You hunt for food and not for horns.


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## Wil (Aug 13, 2009)

here in pennsylvania it is really hard to find a nice buck if you aren't going to cheat. sure if you know a lot of farmers or own a lot of land you have a jump on everyone else, but if you don't, then you are on public gamelands like everyone else. i was hunting the first day and on my way out of my stand i ran into 2 other hunters all hunting the same area. ok and now for rifle season. here in PA the woods are flooded with hunters and they all shoot anything that is leagel and some stuff that isn't. i wish i lived in an area with lots of farm land and lots of deer. i would hunt and wait for a "monster" each year. i have stands in some pretty good looking spots and i saw 1 deer the 1st day. it was a small 6pt and in my area it wasn't leagel. beggers can't be choosers.


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## TN-Deer (Sep 22, 2009)

Good Hunters have good places to hunt. Big buck hunters have private places that can be controlled. If you hunt public land in most places the best you can hope for is to be a good hunter!


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## TeamMathews1030 (Apr 13, 2008)

Thank you Lord, someone finally noticed. That's wjy Michigan doesn't have alot of big buck's, people shoot whatever. I noticed on the MI sportman forum that people were saying "here's my big buck" you look at the pic and it's some little dink 6 or 8. Were I hunt if you shoot a buck, you better be ready to invest $550 in the mount. This prevents people from shooting dinks.




FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


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## MathewsXT#1 (Dec 7, 2006)

*re*



hoytshooter03 said:


> I understand what you are saying.. I shot a small Buck this year.The reason is it was the 2nd Buck I have ever had in bow range that I was able to get a shot on.. Sure he could have been bigger..But he also could have been poached (alot in my area). I will shoot nothing less that a 8 pointer from now on..
> 
> There are bigger bucks in my area but when the pressure comes you never see them for the rest of the year..
> 
> There is alot of pressure where I hunt.. 750 thousand gun hunters have a way of messing it up for everyone.


Amen well said, two very different hunting states all the way around. If you dont shoot that six or eight give it a couple days it will be in the back of someones pickup truck! To many hunters and not enough land. Lots of pressure. some poeple up here in Michigan will shoot anything just to survive the winter. Very poor, lower class familys need meat and they dont think of size they think of food.


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## MathewsXT#1 (Dec 7, 2006)

*re*



MushroomHound said:


> The day hunting whitetails is limited to a rich mans trophy sport and nothing else is the day I will join the ranks of PETA and fight against it.
> 
> God did I just have to say that? ukey:
> 
> ...


thats funny


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## SpikeElk (Mar 27, 2005)

Why would I kill a small buck? Um...... to eat it! I have not yet evolved into a trophy hunter, I am just a hunter.


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## Rford (Jul 24, 2008)

*Hunting Ethics*

Isn't this a hunting ethics question? It is obviously legal. But is it ethical to shoot a small buck? The same question gets raised in other contexts: OK to shoot does with fawns? fawns? spotted fawns? etc. These kinds of questions always seem to raise the hackles on some. 

Like a lot of ethics questions, doesn't the answer depend upon how you approach it? Those that consider deer hunting little more than a trip to the grocery store are not going to have any serious qualms over shooting whatever deer crosses their path. It's simply food. Living off the land. Meat. "If it's brown its down." 

Those that see deer hunting as a "sport" or recreation will, in their early years, usually start off by taking those animals that present themselves, but eventually many of these sportsman find the taking of lesser or smaller animals as unsporting and, hence, unfair if not unethical. 

Some value a trophy animal simply for the sake of the trophy and will shoot no animal that does not meet a certain defined criteria...150, 160, 170 class etc., even though the meat may not be fit to eat once the animal reaches that size. Size matters. 

Some view the management of the "herd" as their ethical responsibility and will only shoot animals that will benefit the greater good...QDM supporters, for example. Some animals are viewed as "culls" and so they are shot, not so much for sport or food, but to prevent breeding inferior qualities to future generations. Criteria is established to determine when an otherwise legal animal is a "shooter" with the goal to present hunters with as many opportunities to take trophy, or near-trophy animals as possible. 

The ethical debates will never be resolved because of the different starting points in the argument. If you believe hunting is about food, a spike or a P&Y both end up on the dinner plate. Sure, the fork buck might someday grow into a magnificant animal, but tomorrow he's going to be dinner. That's not wrong, its not immoral, its not bad. 

Now, let's talk about veal.....


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## jjcard41 (Mar 23, 2008)

*way cool*



Deer Stabber said:


> ok ok, Yes there are big deer in Illinois, and yes I have seen more trophy deer this year then any other. BUT every deer in Illinois isnt 130" or bigger. You cant just go out into the woods and through up a stand and expect to have 130" deer walk by, IT doesnt happen. I have hunted really hard this year. to date these are the bucks I have seen, 1 spike-1 messed up 5 point-1-forky-2 basket 8's-1 130" 8-1 160" 10-1 180" 12, I have seat prob 35 times on stand so far this year. the 2 big deer can in after low shooting light. So Illinois isnt all its cracked up to be.


I'm glad to see someone who resides in IL lives in reality! There is no doubt there are some nice deer in IL, but there are nice deer in other states as well. 
Thanks for the great post!:thumbs_up


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## mobhuntr (Aug 5, 2009)

*work on getting rifle season changed*

i live in missouri, and i would love to see rifle season changed to shotgun only, this would help alot, and the rifle season needs to be shorter. you would see the bucks get bigger. i was one of those people who shot small bucks, but i have learned my lesson. we have let every young buck walk, we went three years without shooting a buck and let me tell you it has made a wotld of difference last year i killed a 154 and my brother killed a 160. it does payoff in the long run. look at illinois and kansas and iowa's deer season, there conservation department is doing it right. its not some magical water or food that makes these states hold big bucks, its the way they manage there deer seasons , its up to you on how you manage the property that you hunt.


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## venisonman (Apr 9, 2004)

Meat?


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## Goatboy (Jan 15, 2004)

Each to his own.

But I don't shoot small bucks, if I did my season would be over in a day or two. I love to hunt and a mature buck is a challege and extends my season.
I hunt 90% puplic so that makes it even more of a challenge.

If I was a meat hunter only I wouldn't shoot a buck here, I can buy as many doe tags as I want and they eat better anyways. So I shoot a couple does a year with my bow.

But as I said, each to his own. I'm glad guys shoot small bucks, leaves more mature ones for me to go after!


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## heartshot88 (Oct 20, 2008)

*To sum it up -*

The answer to your question is - "BECAUSE THEY AIN'T YOU - THANK GOD"


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

SpikeElk said:


> Why would I kill a small buck? Um...... to eat it! I have not yet evolved into a trophy hunter, I am just a hunter.


Me either. As a matter of fact if I ever feel that I'm hunting for horns only, I will quit hunting. 

Some of you should be ashamed for your blatant disregard for others personal choices. I know I am for many of you.


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## 2X_LUNG (May 9, 2009)

davydtune said:


> Me either. As a matter of fact if I ever feel that I'm hunting for horns only, I will quit hunting.
> 
> Some of you should be ashamed for your blatant disregard for others personal choices. I know I am for many of you.



I don't really care if I hurt your feelings personally. If you want to kill small deer, have at it. I, personally, don't shoot those tiny bucks as you do. I'd rather them grow up and take them when they are smarter, bigger, and carry more meat on their bodies. Shoot a doe if you want meat. 

And I'm not ashamed for blatantly disregarding you or the others that decide to shoot the babies.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

2X_LUNG said:


> I don't really care if I hurt your feelings personally. If you want to kill small deer, have at it. I, personally, don't shoot those tiny bucks as you do. I'd rather them grow up and take them when they are smarter, bigger, and carry more meat on their bodies. Shoot a doe if you want meat.
> 
> And I'm not ashamed for blatantly disregarding you or the others that decide to shoot the babies.


That's fine and all, shoot what you want.  However some people, not pointing at anyone in particular, are just making all hunters look like a bunch of idiots with all this bickering over this nonsense. Hunting is slowly becoming a pro sport. Before we know it only the "pros" will be allowed to hunt. Everyone's opinions are fine, you re entitled to them, but for someone blatantly bash someone for shooting what they wanted is  ridiculous and it's hurting our image, makes us all look like "sport" hunters. It's to the point where I'm almost embarrassed to call myself a hunter. 

Shoot what you want, be happy, and let the next guy do the same.


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## rubowhunting (Aug 21, 2009)

Not everyone has the privileged to be able to have giant bucks, your "little" buck can be someone else big buck.


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## eyedoc (Aug 17, 2005)

Basically, whitetail hunting is evolving....

Today' Whitetail mentality:

Today you have a mentality that if you shoot a smaller buck you are an inferior hunter with less hunting skills. There is an immense pressure for QDM, which some will argue it is for the betterment of the heard, but in reality it is to appease trophy hunters and nothing else. The Big Buck movement has caused a dramatic increase in land prices, more outfitters leasing up land, and an increase in individual lease costs. All this leads to a decrease in private land available to the general public. It has become horn hunting and not meat hunting. But to make ourselves feel better about this negative movement we alwasy say it is for the "betterment of the heard". BS. 

I love the threads when a hunter is pissed because a relative or very good lifetime friend (uncle, cousin, brother etc) doesnt use scent control, over hunts an area, shoots a dink etc. A big deer will never come between me and family. Yet we see it over and over here in threads. 


Yesterdays Whitetail Mentality:

You go out with friends and family put a good day in the woods come home and tell stories. If one was successful, you didnt look down upon them for shooting a basket 6 point...you had a beer celebrated the occasion, helped them skin and quarter and had a great time. I like the days of old better.


I am lucky and have access/own some very good private land, however I am not in favor of calling gun hunters slobs, looking down upon a spike that was taken, and throwing other hunters under the bus for their legal taking of deer. As much as I like taking a big buck, I do not like what QDM and outfitter leasing has done to the field of whitetail hunting. 

Ok, I am off my soap box now.


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## bobbyh (Dec 22, 2008)

*shame on you*



wolfie104 said:


> yea, why do you guys shot those little ones? here is a pic of some of my better racks. maybe it will give you guys some motivation to shoot big ones like we do in west virginia... and yea, i hunt over a feeder!!!!!! whooohoooo.......


As a West Virginian, I feel sorry to hear you chose to disobey hunting regulations, ie no baiting. If you chose to ignore such as simple rule as that, I wonder if you poach as well, whats the difference, if your not going to follow one rule why follow another, it is hunters like you in this state that gives all good men and women of this great state a bad representation, hopefully you get caught and have all your hunting privileges revoked, but as stated by your own words, rules don't apply to you, so I doubt you would listen then either.
bobbyh


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

ILDEERHUNTER said:


> How about I'll decide what I shoot as long as it is state legal.


Ding, Ding, Ding....

We have a winner!


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## pabuckslayer08 (Nov 19, 2008)

Some people dont live where there are monsters, where I am a decent 8 is a monster. Plus if I were to let it walk it would just go to the next guy and get shot. So pretty much unless you have a ranch or alot of land its a lose lose situation


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

I cant believe this rediculous thread is still going. If the animal is legal, and I would like to take it, I will. Who is anyone to tell me what animals life I can an cannot take?

My best memories are the stories told about the deer killed. You know...the ones the old timers tell you over and over season after season. Those are experiences and the reason I still hunt. If i waited for a P&Y, I'd wait my whole life and be using the same dozen arrows. 

"Big" and "small" are relative....


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

Mods I and I'm guessing many others think this ridiculously asinine thread should be closed. Makes us look like a bunch of morons.



:lock1:


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## gunnermut (Nov 20, 2008)

I shoot all deer, b/c i'm hunting to enjoy the hunt. I could care less what anyone else shoots, and they shouldnt care what I shoot. The last time i checked we are still having soldiers dying to keep this a free country to choose- how, what, when, and where we do things.:bartstush:


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## wolfie104 (Sep 20, 2009)

bobbyh said:


> As a West Virginian, I feel sorry to hear you chose to disobey hunting regulations, ie no baiting. If you chose to ignore such as simple rule as that, I wonder if you poach as well, whats the difference, if your not going to follow one rule why follow another, it is hunters like you in this state that gives all good men and women of this great state a bad representation, hopefully you get caught and have all your hunting privileges revoked, but as stated by your own words, rules don't apply to you, so I doubt you would listen then either.
> bobbyh



baiting for deer in west virginia IS LEGAL, genius!!!


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## whiskeybravo (Sep 3, 2009)

archerdad said:


> exactly.
> are you trophy hunting or filling a freezer?
> me i fill a freezer.
> who cares.
> some folks don't have the luxury of walking out back on 500 acres of prime buck growing property and so they shoot what they can.


I'm lucky- 5 generations and 1000+ acres... we hunt horns during archery and put meat in the freezer during gun season. God does the management...:darkbeer:

ETA
Oh yea-- booger the 'image' crap...


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## daleg (Jan 1, 2008)

TrophyHunter75 said:


> FullDraw, I invite you to PA to hunt the entire archery season so you can wait on a Illinois class buck. In fact, come out here 5 years in a row. Then come back a few weeks after archery season and hunt the two week rifle season with the 1.5 million other gun hunters.
> 
> It won't take you long to figure out the answer to your question.


amen to that.


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## Ybuck (Apr 21, 2007)

because they get too close to someone with a deer tag in their pocket


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## brandon_ (Jun 22, 2008)

I've never seen a guy's masculinity be called into question for putting an arrow through the lungs of a 110" buck, nor should it be. 

People need to stop hunting for what will please other hunters and enjoy what they do. If you pass on a "small" buck because it will not meet your friend's standards then you need to stop hunting or get new friends.


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## jdamet (Jul 25, 2009)

What is the purpose of this?????? 
Shoot what YOU want and leave everyone else alone. If you want a rack, shoot it, if you want meat, shoot it. You guys arent going to change anyones mind. They will continue to shoot small/big ones after they read this.
*Shut up and let this thread die. *


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

*where's the good feeling?*










This quick picture with a camera phone reveals my emotions at the time. Not the best picture but I wasnt' feeling good about harvesting this buck. This is a 3 1/2 yr old ten point who if given another year or two would have probably been a trophy class whitetail buck. I had only seconds to decide whether to take him or not as I turned around to notice that he was chasing a doe over the crest of a hill. My muzzleloader shoots where I aim it and the buck swiftly went down. It just all seemed too quick and easy.

Don't get me wrong. I would have been tickled to take this buck with my Martin Cheetah but I know that a bow hunting experience is not quick and easy. I would have had time to think and choose. There was no pounding of the heart before, during or after the shot with the muzzleloader. The final result left me feeling baffled. At this point I don't know if I am mad at myself for picking up my muzzleloader on the first day of the season instead of sticking with my first love which is bow hunting or........am I just getting soft in my old age. 

In any event this sport is all about feeling and if someone can get excited about taking a small basket rack buck then that is the right thing for him to do in my opinion. The good thing about hunting is that the only rules other than state laws are ones that we impose on ourselves. That is, if we can understand ourselves in the first place.

Doug


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## Shane2MC (Oct 30, 2007)

Immature bucks are all that is available in many areas because everybody shoots young immature bucks before they have a chance to grow up.

It's not like shooting a deer with anters - any antlers - makes you more macho. If you truly are a DEER hunter that is interested in meat instead of a trophy, then why do you need to shoot a young buck instead of a doe? A young buck doesn't have any more meat than a doe. If you don't care about a trophy, then what do you need the little antlers for? You can't eat antlers, right?

In all honesty, the meat hunters that take young bucks are just overly competitive trophy hunters in denial. They can't stand the thought of going a season without bringing home some kind of bone - ANY bone. Further, they use "reasons" of small acreage, poaching by neighbors, and all of that as excuses to shoot a young buck before he wanders over the fence and somebody else shoots him. 

If you're a DEER hunter that's interested in meat in the freezer, then who cares if the other guy across the fence shoots a dink buck? Just shoot a doe and let the young bucks walk. You can't tell me that you wouldn't jump at the chance to shoot a big mature buck, if such a buck existed on the land yo hunt and walked through your setup. It'll happen if you quit killing them as babies.

If the neighbors killed all the deer and you never had a chance of putting meat in the freezer, would you be upset?

How is that different from your neighbor that would like to shoot a mature buck, but all of HIS neighbors kill every young buck that walks by?


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## LtlRushnArchr30 (Nov 3, 2007)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


I would like to see you come to Maine and shoot a 10pt or better year after year after year...


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## fieldtip (Aug 25, 2009)

Private property I will let younger ones walk. But gamelands I won't. There's not the population to support it in my area (less than 2 bucks per square mile). They are still trophies that I'm very proud of taking. My wife and myself can eat from 1 deer for a year. I don't waste anything except for organs and bone (even keep hide). Nice bucks are great but not common from public land in my area. I am 100% sure of clean and ethicall kills or I don't take shot. So, anything I decide to harvest is definately a proud trophy, reguardless of antler size.


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## pjoker9902 (Nov 20, 2008)

willie said:


> "why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> because they are *deer* hunters???
> 
> ...




well said willie i agree


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

why do people shoot small bucks? why not shoot a doe? ever hear of cwd or earn a buck? there are very few does left atleast on public land in wisconsin, I havent used my a tag in 2 years because i havent shot or seen a shootable doe, but i see plenty of bucks usually except for this season so far i havent been seeing much of anything on public land...but i will shoot a small buck it it walks by.

come hunt public land in wisconsin you will wanna shoot anything. the dnr giving un limitrd tags in the cwd zones didnt help for the last 6 or 7 years or whatever it was and all the greedy hunters shooting as many as they could ove the years, one local group who just does drives by us shot like 25 deer 2 years ago and were at it hard last year.

this year for the early doe shoot we never seen a doe but did see 5 shooter bucks on being a 12 with a drop tine...lucky we have 1 buck tag for 7 hunters gonna be a grimm gun season.

If you got private land you are lucky the wi dnr is ruining deer hunting in wisconsin and with the new proposals for 2110 if any of them go through im done hunting in wi.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


Just another example of why I don't have anything to do with the state of Ill.

Thanks for the advice, IT WASN'T ASKED FOR. Even with all your "great" deer you can't be happy. 

Why not leave that area and hunt were the bucks aren't so big and then get on your high horse, if you can. 

Or better yet, just be happy for others. 

How is it Chuck Adams can be so pleasant and you such a...?


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## TnHunter619 (Oct 14, 2009)

well my situation is different i live in mi but have nowhere to hunt up here so i can only hunt with my pappaw in tennessee. so I Will shoot anything thats legal to put meat in the freezer I do not discriminate..lol
but I only hunt my pappaws twenty acres and your lucky to see a deer once every three to four days so you take what you can get...
pappaw once spent three weeks and didnt see a deer and then he finally seen a small 4 and shot it.
Last year I only got to hunt a week and a half and in that time i only had a doe and a button buck walk in it was buck only so i didnt get one last year
if i lived somewhere where i had big bucks walking around and i would have a shot at i would let the smaller ones walk... but untill then if its brown its down


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## getumspike (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't know if your trying to be critical or you just don't understand that all hunting situations are not created equal. 1. I hunt in florida, I'm not saying there aren't big deer in florida, but the big ones are far and few between. 2. 90% or more of my hunting is on public land. I don't have private land or a lease where there are feeders or food plots and get limited if anytime to scout. 3. I have a job/life that doesn't afford me many opportunities to hunt. 4. I haven't harvested many deer, I would love to be able to sit in a stand and pass up on 4 pointers, 6 pointers, and 8 pointers because I know a bigger one is out there. Just not realistic. So that is why I will shoot a small buck if I get a chance.


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

A 6-8 point basket rack buck is huge in some state's and especially on public land. In Mississippi, a 150" deer is the same as your 220" deer, in fact I think the state record archery kill is like 163". The normal "big buck" is a 3 1/2 year old with a 120" rack.

We were all tickled to get a spike growing up for many many years. Any buck was a rare thing. This was only a few years ago before antler restrictions came about. Lots of places are still like that, and lots of people still hunt the same way.

Then there's meat hunters. My father-in-law loves to get first year deer (fawns about 7 months old). He likes big bucks more but during gun season in Missouri around there, if you see a deer it's opening morning and it's running. We might have a group of 5 people and not see a deer for a week after opening day is gone. They don't understand why I don't shoot the fawns and little bucks, but I absolutely see why they shoot anything they see. They don't bowhunt when you can actually see a deer. Then of course you have less skilled people or those with no good place to hunt (of course everyone thinks they're skilled, I can go to public land and see a buck nearly every day but it took a lot of experience and listening to older woodsmen.).


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## JD BC (Sep 23, 2009)

In BC in most places you are only allowed to shoot bucks so if you want meat you shoot a little buck. A lot of hunters hunt for meat and could care less about the rack. My self most deer I shoot are for meat (I may save 1 of my 3 deer tags for a trophy) and I trophy hunt for other game. I say as long as it is legal and the hunter is happy(I do not understand the guys who choose shoot deer they are not happy with ) with what they chose to harvest who cares. If trophy management is your problem well it is not much of a trophy when big deer are common in my opinion.


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## KiddRoss (Nov 24, 2005)

I have pondered making a website along the lines of tweezerbucks.com, so the avg. hunter without short man complex can go and share pics and stories without feeling ashamed or embarrassed from everyone who is just to good for that, to some like me its not about the rack, its about memories made and being able to say you hunted hard. I dunno Maybe if I had private land with food plots and whitetails running around like flees, I would not feel this way


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## backcast88 (Mar 7, 2009)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


Thank you for saying that. I was trying to figure out how to word it but you pretty much summed it up.


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## Gladysarcher3 (Apr 22, 2009)

willie said:


> "Why do people shoot such small bucks?"
> 
> Because they are *DEER* hunters???
> 
> ...


*AMEN BROTHER!!:cheers:*


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## Tenpoint TL-7 (Jan 23, 2006)

Where I hunt if it's legal and it has a big body it's going down. I'm lucky to see a buck. I all ways get a doe tag because I see alot of does. I'm not a trophy hunter.


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## bobbyh (Dec 22, 2008)

wolfie104 said:


> baiting for deer in west virginia IS LEGAL, genius!!!


page 11 bottom right hand corner of 2009-2010 under baiting and feeding regulations, states that it is illegal to bait of feed cervids or other wildlife in a containment area as determined by the director ---- also included is beedh fork lack, bluestone lake ,burnsvill lake and mcclintic wma's, so I guess it matters where you hunt as to whether or not it is legal, so am i 50% genius, or 50% stupid lol  good luck
bobbyh


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## dwhunts (Oct 24, 2007)

I think most hunters, if given the luxury of having the time and a place that holds good mature buck regularly, would harvest mature bucks more often. 

Where I come from it's not as easy. Hilly country, very little flat land, heavily populated and lots and lots of poachers--did I mention lots of poachers? I have been lucky enough to find some landowners who allow me to bowhunt their land, and they are very strict about other people hunting it, and would not even consider letting a gun hunter in there. These few places have better bucks and not only that, they are easier to hunt because they act more like a deer should---instead of being constantly spooked and the big boys going nocturnal before season is even in full swing, these deer behave a little bit like a deer should, as they dont receive much pressure. 

I would not shoot a small buck on those plots. I do however have a big family farm---and sadly lots of trigger happy cousins. There, I will harvest a smaller buck if I'm meat hunting and running out of time. Sadly that happened last year. I expended all my days off work. This was the last evening i was going to hunt and I had a tag to fill. I had visions of a big doe coming in bow range, but Nothing. About last shooting light I got an easy 15 yard shot at a basket 7 point and took it. Neat little rack too. 

I'm telling you what, that front shoulder roast was something else. The back straps? I butterflied them, fried them up with some oliverio peppers and put them on a bun while we were out trout fishing/camping in the early spring. It was excellent. During that time, the last thing on my mind was "why did I harvest that 7 point basket buck?" I was more in the mindset of "this is soooooo tasty, I want more!!"


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## thehungryhunter (Oct 8, 2009)

perchjerker said:


> He never said he was talking about a 130 class deer.
> I wonder the same thing when I see someone has killed a basket rack or a spike. I know trophy is relative to area of the country.
> Gypsey river That big buck you are hunting,would he be around if your neighbors were killing EVERYTHING?Its simple if you want to kill bigger bucks ,you must let them walk when they are young. You can never control what someone else is doing.only thru education and example will things change.
> The fact that you are hunting in the South is no excuse.There are huge bucks killed every year in the South due to the fact that someone let them walk .I would take a 120-130.I've never killed a buck with my bow.I've let lots of them walk.
> Its just a matter of whether killing is the only thing hunting is to you. I plant year round food plots with high protein plants, I enjoy the whole hunting experience.Not just killing a small buck.


:thumbs_up

Same with tresspassers I too have alot of them, but I will not take a spiker because of it....I will shoot for opportunity on meat, and experience.


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## shott8283 (Sep 20, 2007)

without going back through the 11 pages.. my reply to the question would be::

some areas of the country are more prone to produce smaller animals then larger ones.. my area doesnt have the monster population like Ohio and Iowa does.. and if someone gets there license and they have a buck tag.. and a buck walks through.. they shoot it.. bam they got meat in the freezer


newer hunters will shoot anything that comes there way and they should.. getting the rush and the feeling of taking an animal is the only thing that will keep them in the woods.. i went 4 years before i even shot a deer, primarily when i started, i was doing everything wrong and couldnt get anything to come close.. so when my little 5 point came across,, you dang skippy i took him down..and his antlers are on the wall and im proud of it

now.. after taken a few here and there im waiting for larger ones


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## BingoFlyer (Jul 13, 2003)

I've been watching this for some time but finally had to step in and say something.

What areas that do have large bucks have in common is very fertile soil most of them also a lot of mineral needed for antler growth. Michigan has very little of these conditions but where they do have the larger bucks are harvested.

Most of MI hunting is done "up north" and the soil is mostly sand, we put tons of fertilizer in our food plots and still do not get the growth of the large deer states.

I have been hunting MI for longer than most of you have been alive (since 1949) and will continue to kill what the area will provide. If I'm hunting an area that continuously produces large deer I will hold out but where I normally hunt I will shoot any 2-1/2 year old buck that is within my range.


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## MLRoll (Jun 16, 2007)

People sometimes shoot small bucks because: (1) they have limited time to hunt, they may just have a couple of weekends a year they had rather kill a small to marginal buck than no buck at all, (2) they may be hunting from out of state the only weekend they get to go, I know in KY non-resident license and deer permit cost $190 (considered a bargain in some states), gas, lodging and food and other misc cost if they see a buck it would be hard not to shoot, (3) may be hunting state ground, if they don't kill someone else will, (4) and the most important reason to feed family or donate to someone else that could really use the meat, I've yet to get antlers to taste very good. I believe that God put these animals on this earth to feed us than hang on the wall. 

I myself try to keep from shooting smaller bucks (the lease I'm on has a 125" minimum)and I'm trying to keep my family from killing smaller bucks but I'm not going to put down someone else that wants to kill for the meat. I've also seen where people have killed the trophy bucks cape it out, maybe the backstraps and throw the rest away.


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## gbear (May 30, 2009)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


so what's the largest you've shot? score?


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

FullDraw09 said:


> I am not trying to be critical, but I have seen a lot of pics this last week or two of people shooting small bucks?? By small I mean 6-8 point basket bucks or smaller? Why not let them go so that they can get bigger?? Shoot a doe instead. Maybe I am just fortunate to live in such a good state with nice bucks. We have rule where I hunt, we shoot nothing less then an 8 and you have to pay to get it mounted. Some of the bucks I see on here are a dime a dozen in Illinois. Over the last 4 years, those small 6-8 pointers have grown to nice shooters. Just let them go for a couple of years and you will see the difference in rack size.


You do that where I live and when gun season gets here you get to see that buck on the back of Joe Smoes 4-wheeler drving by, so there went his chance at being bigger, I shoot a legal buck when I get the chance just so I will have the chance to shoot a buck, I don't gun hunt and don't hunt when gun season is in, cause of the crazy sob's that do around here, they live by "If its brown, it's down!!" So I take them when I can get them.


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## fxdwgkd (Oct 6, 2009)

Ignorance!! That is all I can say about your post. Think about your post before you submit it. We all do not live in buck heaven. Get your head out of the sand.


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## meatmissile (Oct 26, 2009)

Being from central NC I can honestly say that if the big buck hunters that thrive on world class deer in the mid west came here and hunted in these pine thicket swamp infested areas that have very high deer #s with 125-145lb average weight deer. It would take about a week of this area for them to decide that they would rather be on the golf course. I say shoot what makes you happy as hunter. Wether it is horns or meat its all in the hunt and what the exsperience brings to you. We have some very nice deer here but a 125" buck here is about as common as 160" deer in the midwest states. I could buy some archery gear cheap if they had to hunt these thickets and swamp lands for one season.


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## Mr. Burns (Apr 21, 2008)

why do you care? its hardly any of your business what other people shoot. 

as far as I am concerned, youre insulting them right now. If its a trophy to them, you have no right to nock it. 

you hunt your woods and shoot what you want, and I will hunt mine and shoot what I want..


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## B-G-K (Sep 19, 2009)

jdamet said:


> What is the purpose of this??????
> Shoot what YOU want and leave everyone else alone. If you want a rack, shoot it, if you want meat, shoot it. You guys arent going to change anyones mind. They will continue to shoot small/big ones after they read this.
> *Shut up and let this thread die. *


Well said, in my zones they implemented a 3 point on one side or greater for bucks. Back when it got implemented I was young and hated the idea. Nowadays I love it and will pass some basket racks knowing that it will just be meat to me and i have plentiful chances to take a doe of the same body size. I also hold myself to this limit in areas where the 3 point limit it not demanded. In no way do i expect someone else to pass the deer I pass, and I am happy for a hunter that takes any deer they are happy with. What I am saying is I do have some sort of qdm that i follow but i dont expect others to follow my guidelines. Let everyone enjoy HUNTING they way they enjoy it. Most of us are out there because we love it, thats what its about to me. Just dont expect everyone to adhere to your standards. I unerstand your point, and respect your opinion but in turn i respect all of the other hunters' opinions and choices so long as they are legal.


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## DrumdudeLarry (Mar 22, 2008)

You can't eat antlers. I hunt for meat. If i get a couple does in the freezer then I might get a little choosey when it comes to shooting a buck. but for me top priority is meat!


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

This thread is really stupid. If one of my fellow bowhunters kills a basket 6 pt and it's a trophy in thier eyes i am happy for them. Who am I to question thier legal kill. For my self I'll shoot does over young bucks. Thats my choice. Just as it's thier choice to take a small buck if they choose to do so. Maybe some of you could walk the day you was born and soon as you started bowhunting you started right off killing P&Y bucks and have never killed a so called lesser buck. I hate arrogance.


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