# um, that sir, is not helical



## Bee Man (Feb 22, 2013)

I only read the first few lines BUT, a helical clamp is made so that the bottom of the vane stays in a strajght line, as common sense dictates it must. How ever, it causes the vane to be in a position so that once adhered to the shaft, the top of the vane is not striahg but spiraled.


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

the only thing "straight" about a helix is its axis and tangents. I'm sure it's clear as crystal to you, but it's still a bit muddy to me. Nonetheless, thanks for the reply : )


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## Assassin73 (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm not sure what the correct response is here but I'm interested.


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## dustoffer (Jan 24, 2009)

It doesn't matter to me that a Bitz clamp isn't a real/true helical--what matters is that it makes the arrow rotate and steers it to my aiming point!! Call it anything you want--just so it sticks 'em where they live.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

in the immortal words of Warren Oates in stripes... "Lighten up Francis"

Build the thing and lets see it!

:cheers:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

By all means please produce a design for an easy to DIY helical clamp.

I sketched one up a while back which would have adjustable helical but it was just a little too complex to be worth while.

-Grant


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## OzArcher1 (May 25, 2007)

I don't think it make a lot of difference. Granted the clamp base (and therefore the Fletch) is probably not a true mathematically perfect helix, but then again it probably does not need to be either, just as a dot on a piece of paper is not a true mathematically perfect point. I think that if you check the outer periphery of the fletches themselves, they will be a good approximation to a aerodynamic wing and thus produce lift in the appropriate places to cause the arrow to spin. I think that this spinning effect is the reason for the use of the word "helix". the helix is so much in the shape of the fletching but the motion of the forward moving arrow


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## 3Dmaniac (May 25, 2009)

here is your definition..HELICAL...Adjective
Having the shape or form of a helix; spiral: "helical molecules".
Synonyms
spiral


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## Jimbo45 (Dec 6, 2012)

My head hurts now.


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## zcsmith (Mar 5, 2013)

Helical clamp means it puts a spiral in the fletch. So by definition it is correctly stated.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

The term "helical" doesn't describe the clamp/shaft interface. It describes the clamp only. If you take a straight Bitz clamp and extend it so it's a few feet long, it will remain straight. If you take a helical Bitz clamp and extend it so it's a few feet long, the clamp will go around in a complete spiral (helix).

The idea with any clamp is simply to hold the vane against the shaft so that *at all points *along the vane, regardless of the angle of the clamp with respect to the shaft (the offset), the vane is held at 90 degrees to the shaft surface. For short vanes and small offsets, a straight clamp is adequate because the base of the vane flexes enough to hold at 90 degrees to the shaft. For longer vanes and more offset, a curved clamp is required. Maybe not the perfect mathematical definition of a "helix", but accurate and descriptive enough for our purposes.


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## kerrye (Sep 1, 2010)

The difference is: Archery; buzzword. Math; mathematical definition.


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## familyguy (Mar 11, 2008)

kerrye said:


> The difference is: Archery; buzzword. Math; mathematical definition.


This...


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## km04 (Feb 2, 2013)

Assassin73 said:


> I'm not sure what the correct response is here but I'm interested.


As am I.

You Sir, get +10 points for using the word progeny!!!


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

This one time I saw a turtle...


Lol... I think everyone is taking the term helical to literal. Helical, offset, straight, etc... All have their places. These terms describe something in archery much looser than what the OP is taking about.

Sent via carrier pigeon


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## nmmay33 (Dec 13, 2012)

Reminds me of clipless pedals for cycling. Term isnt exactly descriptive of what you are actually doing, due to its origins, and can be misleading when taken to litterally.


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## bowbender300 (Feb 3, 2010)

Tomatoe tomato


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## soonerboy (Sep 6, 2004)

This thread makes my head spin----Right wing helical by the way.


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## Habo (Feb 26, 2013)

Speaking of Helix, spinning, and wings....sorry for the stupid question, but I am protected by the NEWBIE clause.

If you decide to purchase the Helix Broadhead from Strickland Archery, it requires you decide on Right or Left wing.

How do I know what I use? Same as Right handed vs Left handed? 

Thanks,


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

There are several terms used in archery that are not technically correct. 

We don't care and don't care to be educated on the correct term. It works for archery. It may not work in math class, but we understand what it means when we discuss arrows. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## bardman (Oct 18, 2006)

2 questions 

Is there gonna be a test on this later?

And do I have to do math with letters in it?


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

bardman said:


> 2 questions
> 
> Is there gonna be a test on this later?
> 
> And do I have to do math with letters in it?


That made my day

Sent via carrier pigeon


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## hb48444 (Apr 9, 2006)

bardman said:


> 2 questions
> 
> Is there gonna be a test on this later?
> 
> And do I have to do math with letters in it?



To funny, I nearly spit out my coffee.


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## OzArcher1 (May 25, 2007)

bardman said:


> 2 questions
> 
> Is there gonna be a test on this later?
> 
> And do I have to do math with letters in it?


They're only ancient Greek letters, that should make it easier


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## Foxtrot92000 (Dec 24, 2012)

bardman said:


> 2 questions
> 
> Is there gonna be a test on this later?
> 
> And do I have to do math with letters in it?


Lol. My thoughts exactly. These are the questions we need answered.


--Alex


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## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

bardman said:


> 2 questions
> 
> Is there gonna be a test on this later?
> 
> And do I have to do math with letters in it?


Funny stuff !!!!!!


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

Really ?

You come to a "DIY forum", of all places, and say, "we don't wish to be educated".

Look, you can build stuff trial and error if you want. But it's too wasteful in both time and resources to suit me. But learning how to do what I would like to do before I do it just makes good sense. And for me, that means math with letters in it. 

I came here hoping to find like-minded individuals who could "educate" me on the many aspects of archery. If I'm in the wrong place then I'll move along and search elsewhere. 

If not, then I'm happy to announce that I "think" I know now why they call it helical even though it's not. To answer my own question: yes, it IS intentional. 

Bah! Sup is here... Back to work... Will finish after work


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## deerjitsu (Apr 3, 2013)

Calm down. They were only saying that some people are happy enough that it works for them. Some people require thorough understanding of things before they will accept it. Others are willing to try something and if it works for them, then they'll accept it. Thank you for educating us non-educated folks. We surrender to your higher knowledge. :yield:


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Build it....
Stick some feathers on a shaft with it...
Shoot em
Get back to me..


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

I am calm. There are no exclaimation points in my reply.
And why do you assume you have been educated by me? I simply reported what I observed and ask about it.

Now my purpose is to simply make sure I'm in the right place before asking anymore questions about "DIY".


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If you can design a clamp which will allow more complete vane contact with increased twist then I am all ears. Because as it stands now I can't get as much "helical" on my skinny shafts as I would prefer.

-Grant


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm at work at the moment, but am looking forward to talking to you Grant.

Thanks


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## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

I am interested in how to build something like this and compensate for the varying radiuses of different sized arrow shafts, in order to keep the full length of the vane in contact with the shaft (sort of a "one size fits all" solution)

Or would you have to build a separate version of a "helixed" clamp for each shaft diameter?

Just wondering out loud.

J.


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

Short answer: different clamps once the point of diminishing returns is reached.

Still at work at the moment. Working for the man!


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## Rapt_up (Mar 18, 2013)

Hmmm... Most interested in where this goes.  Working for the man here too.. .as a mechanical engineer.

I prefer math with letters.


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

Sweet Jesus Rapt_Up..... Don't say that out loud! They might hear you ! 
Just kidding : )

Will share what I've found once I get home and hopefully some of the archey vets can affirm or correct it


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Stupid Arrow said:


> Really ?
> 
> You come to a "DIY forum", of all places, and say, "we don't wish to be educated".
> 
> ...


Scathing & hostile reply deleted after a little more thought. 

I'd like to see your ideas.

Allen


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

Long day, and glad it's over... whew!

First of all, I have to admit that I actually 'was' disappointed somewhat to learn that a helical fletch doesn't necessarily subscribe to the true definition of a helix (or does it). The reason being that, a true helix clamp would have been easy to fabricate, but it would also have been useless. Creating a jig/clamp to replicate a helix esque "swirl" will be of a greater magnitude more difficult.

I use the term "useless" loosely, because I am merely speculating about a relationship between the fletch-shaft-bow. In short, I was telling a friend that I wanted to incorporate multi spline fletching into the project so as to include an element of arts and crafts for the kids. He then reminded me to make sure, that with all the colors involved, to keep up with which feather was or will be the nock feather(?) or maybe it was the cock feather... Anyway, I had to ask what it was and what purpose it served. Upon hearing his description about fletch spacing and profile contact with the bow upon shaft release, I surmised (guessed) that a truly helical fletch would create a profile so monstrous that upon contact with the bow you would end up shooting 90 degree angles. And as I said in the original post, the market brand clamps "are" helical at sections near the center of the fletch but then turn to run parallel with the axis of the shaft. This was observed using a 5/16 carbon shaft on a retail clamp (for under 2 minutes..any longer and it would have seemed weird to the sales person):embara: They turn from helix to parallel, I belive, so as to create a more pronounced swirl and to generate a smaller profile at the point of contact with the bow. Someone please comment on this so that we new guys will know...

*NOTE* if you can visualize this next part, then you are definitely an alien, sent to infiltrate the earth clans and steal all our bows and arrows !

And as Stash pointed out earlier, if the clamp in question was much longer and followed the same curve in space, then it would indeed be a helix. BUT, it would be a helix with a diameter of 5/16, whose axis runs parallel to the axis of the shaft, at 45 degrees on the circumference of the shaft and approximately 1/2 inch in distance from the axis of the shaft. This is confirmed visually by the leading and trailing edge of the clamp coming to rest on the shaft at 0 degrees parallel and 90 degrees parallel.

In other words, hey! it actually is helical ! But moved in space so as to strike the shaft within the first quadrant ! ! !

*NOTE* the following *NOTE* is simple. Stop complaining and just draw it!

*NOTE* an easy way to see this visually is to get a ruler and draw a tic tac toe. Then use a compass to draw a circle whose center is the point where the lower left corner of the center square meets the top right corner of the lower left square. The top of the circle will contact the point where the bottoms of the top center and top left squares meet and the right side of the circle will contact where the bottom right corner of the center square meets the top left corner of the bottom right square. Now your compass should be set correctly. Inscribe your circle, but DON"T change the compass afterwards! Instead, use it to draw an exact same circle whose center is the junction of the lower right corner of the top center square and bottom left corner of the top right square.

The first circle represents your shaft. The second circle you drew represents the diameter of the helix at rest on your shaft. 
Now, draw a line from the center point of one circle to the center point of the other. This is your hypotenuse. 
However, I'm not allowed to use letters in math, so you will have to compute its length on your own. *hint* Pythagoras posted his solution over 2500 years ago : ) 

All we need to know now is what the length of one complete turn of the helix is. Fortunately, there is a formula to compute this given the length of an arc of the helix. (an arc of the helix is what a market brand clamp actually is)(in case you were wondering) : )
But (sad face) I don't know how long a fletch is and as such have no idea what an acceptable arc length would be. Again, I call on the archery vets to step in and save us.

So, if you know the arc length, just compute a full rotation and we'll have our helix. AND.... AND... once we have our helix of one full rotation, we'll cut it on one side, along its length and parallel to its axis and then cut it again along its length and parallel to its axis but at ninety degrees from the first cut. Basically, divide the pie into four slices, cut one slice from the pie and set it on the mantle and tell people "it's art", then keep the rest cause it's your clamp ! Well, it's one side of your clamp. You gotta make the other side as well : )

This will require a jig to build a jig and I have some thoughts on what material would best suit this project. One material would require craftsmanship, the other a cnc machine. But I would rather wait on confirmation of the idea in general before I begin researching materials. So please share your thoughts and advice !

P.S,
I would like to help Jaycrayford2001 with his question (posted above) but I'm not qualified to do so. However, I did think about it and what I came up with is the mouse and the shrinking elephant.
You place the mouse on the back of the elephant. Everyday the elephant loses half of it's mass(size) until it reaches that point at which it is the same mass as the mouse. You're still ok at this point, but the following day you'll find the elephant is now half as large as the mouse and can no longer support it.

I'm stuck on Jays problem for that point where the fletch of a given size, confined to adhering to the shape of the clamp, can no longer be supported by the shaft of a given diameter. At what point is the shaft to small? 
Going out on a limb here, but the quick fix would be a shorter fletch for the smaller shaft...... is that allowed in archery?

Stupid_Arrow


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

it's to late and I'm to tired to check it at the moment, but hang on to the piece that I said was "art". I may have been mistaken as to which part was the clamp and which was the art : )

Will also consider orientation of helix segment as it applies to right-wing left-wing. Tomorrow.....

Stupid_Arrow

p.s, I'm seeing where one helix, fourthed, creating two separate adjacent pairs, with one pair flipped end around, could create one clamp of right-wing and another clamp of left-wing......geez, I gotta go to bed before my head pops and I lose all my applesauce.


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## smoked him (Nov 1, 2010)

Dude...... I need some of what you are smoking!


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## Veni Vidi Vici (Jan 23, 2011)

Stupid Arrow said:


> This will require a jig to build a jig and I have some thoughts on what material would best suit this project. One material would require craftsmanship, the other a cnc machine. But I would rather wait on confirmation of the idea in general before I begin researching materials. So please share your thoughts and advice !


Model it up, then have someone rapid prototype it. There are a few on here that built their own 3D printers that might be willing to try it, or, if you prefer, you can upload your file to quickparts.com or equivalent and have it back in a few days.

FWIW, I think the "helical" clamps are designed the way they are to offer a somewhat helical clamping over a wide array of shaft sizes. In order to design a true helical clamp, it would have to work with only a single shaft diameter and helix angle, which would mean lots of jigs and more cost.

I found an article that basically says the same thing, but gets more into the math of it. http://www.freewebs.com/johnske/fletchingmatters.htm


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

If I am not mistaken, your original conception was to have a single fletching encircle the shaft in spiral fashion? If so, that has been affectionately called a "flu-flu" arrow in traditional archery for decades and used primarily for aerial targets and small game hunting. Such an arrow takes off with normal velocity (momentum/KE?) and rapidly slows down due to the drag (frictional coefficient?) that the longer spiral fletching imparts upon the system. The basic concept of the "helical" fletching unit is to intentionally guide the arrow into a desirable rotational flight pattern that enhances stability, especially so when using a broadhead tipped arrow, but not effect the downrange efficiency to a significant degree. I'm sure you have come to the same conclusions, but I braved stating the obvious so those who fear "letter math" can keep up your break-neck pace. :shade:


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Stupid Arrow said:


> it's to late and I'm to tired to check it at the moment, but hang on to the piece that I said was "art". I may have been mistaken as to which part was the clamp and which was the art : )
> 
> Will also consider orientation of helix segment as it applies to right-wing left-wing. Tomorrow.....
> 
> ...


If you cad it and give me an stl file I'll print it for free.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

Now that I've read this whole thread............*there's 3 or 4 minutes I will never get back......*


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## BigRedRandy (Mar 8, 2013)

I, too am into trying to understand the physics. When I understand the physics, I understand the system. Please don't knock the nerds who, like me, want/need the deeper understanding. It's why we join fora like this. I work with complex communications systems all day. I can't accept the "black box" concept. I have to know what's inside the box and how it works. That's why I'm an engineer.

I also realize that not everyone _is an engineer, some are simply 'users', and there's nothing wrong with that.

To chime in on the OP's question: While the vanes aren't truly helically wound around the shaft (it'd be an interesting jig tool to make that happen), they are 'canted' enough to make the arrow rotate as if they were. I liken it to the wash-out of wings and offset of the rudder on a single-engine piston airplane. Those aren't helical either, but they impart a rotational moment about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft which (at cruise) counteracts the reaction moment caused by the torque of the engine and rotation of the propeller (and the helical prop-wash that has a tendency to make the plane turn left)._


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## oldschoolcj5 (Jun 8, 2009)

...


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## MikeMoab (Nov 12, 2009)

I believe the basic advantage to a helically fletched arrow vs. a straight offset fletched arrow is a reduction in air flow turbulence. Since a helical fletch, when properly installed, starts and ends in-line or parallel to the shaft, air flow would be improved over a straight offset. I have no air flow testing to prove this, but common sense would tell me this.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm embarrassed by the number of people that are so proud not to have any knowledge of mathematics. It makes me afraid for our educational system.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

Don't know much about the math thing,but

I believe the Bitz was designed before there was such a thing as vanes. Back then there were feathers. Seems the clammp is designed to allow a split feather to wrap nicely around a shaft.


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

mainehunt said:


> Now that I've read this whole thread............*there's 3 or 4 minutes I will never get back......*


plus the twenty minutes it probably took for you to type a coherent sentence (?) 

Haste makes Waste !


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

I remain enthusiastic and almost "aquiver" (look it up in a dikshunary) at the prospects of involving the children in the pastime of archery. And as for myself, I am anticipating many many hours of pleasure from building many of the accessories of this self same activity.
However, my wife has the better wisdom of it as of this moment. She has reminded me of past interests of mine and of how I become to deeply involved far to quickly, only to give up in frustration from a lack of the most basic of understanding of the subject.
As such, I have decided to purchase bows, arrows, targets and other "beginners" items for the kids so that they may start shooting immediately. This will also afford me the opportunity to gather more "domain knowledge" for the endeavors ahead. 

Before I go however, I would like to report that I have completed the algorithm for choosing the design parameters for the helical clamp, including the as of yet unmentioned z-axis. Sadly, it requires a basic understanding of beginners math. I had hoped to discover a way to circumvent this. Unfortunately, the necessity remains and therefor the solution, it would seem, lies outside the realm of this forum.

DIY nock alignment toolhttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/attach/jpg.gif

*instructions on building this tool*
1. look around till you find a quarter

*instructions on using it*
1. stick it in the nock and twist until correct orientation is achieved


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## Veni Vidi Vici (Jan 23, 2011)

Stupid Arrow said:


> Before I go however, I would like to report that I have completed the algorithm for choosing the design parameters for the helical clamp, including the as of yet unmentioned z-axis. Sadly, it requires a basic understanding of beginners math. I had hoped to discover a way to circumvent this. Unfortunately, the necessity remains and therefor the solution, it would seem, lies outside the realm of this forum.


If you intended this to be a slam on everyone in this forum (and I believe you did), then I truly feel sad for you. There are so many people here from all walks of life and with all educational backgrounds. Great DIY projects have come from all types of people here. You may know math, but do you know how to weld? How to work with flint? How to tune every model of bow, or how to powder coat, paint, smoke meats, plant food plots, convert salvaged engine parts into something useful? Can you operate machining equipment? Can you design and build electronic devices using a 3D printer you built yourself and a knowledge of Arduino programming? There is so much good information on this forum! In fact, this is the first forum I visit every time I come to the site. You can't ask for a better bunch of folks. 

As for your tool .... just make sure you don't misplace it. You're going to need it in order to call someone who cares.


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## Rockjock (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree Veni.


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## Stupid Arrow (Mar 31, 2013)

I agree. 
It was a cheap shot.
I was wrong and I apologize.

p.s, it would take no less than seven nock tools to call someone who cared. And that would only get you about one minute. Lucky for me, no one cared and it didn't cost a thing.

p.s.s, anyone notice the date on that quarter ?... 1938 ? ... wow ! .. wonder if it's worth more than 25 cents now ?


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## JUSS HUNT (Feb 2, 2011)

just a reminder ; what works for 1 person doesn't always work for another , fletch M , an choot M, LOL an have fun


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## BigRedRandy (Mar 8, 2013)

If slamming people because of their educational background or differential interests is what this forum is about, I want no part of it. In the Astronomy Forum in which I'm a moderator, there are a number of posts in this thread that would have been deleted and the posters suspended.

People come here to learn. Some of us are theoreticians, some experimenters, others builders, it takes all of those to make the system work. Just because YOU may not be one of those, don't slam those who are.


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## Yawna-GO (Nov 15, 2006)

It could be said...that if your arrows need helical fletching to stabalize the flight...then your bow is not in tune.

If you wish to contest this fact...please look yourself in the mirror and say these words......I'm an Idiot.....three times fast.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

The word helix comes from the Greek word ἕλιξ, "twisted,


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## drum3rguy (Jun 1, 2006)

> *instructions on building this tool*
> 1. look around till you find a quarter
> 
> *instructions on using it*
> 1. stick it in the nock and twist until correct orientation is achieved


OR, just place your nock on the string and rotate the arrow.


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

BigRedRandy said:


> If slamming people because of their educational background or differential interests is what this forum is about, I want no part of it. In the Astronomy Forum in which I'm a moderator, there are a number of posts in this thread that would have been deleted and the posters suspended.
> 
> People come here to learn. Some of us are theoreticians, some experimenters, others builders, it takes all of those to make the system work. Just because YOU may not be one of those, don't slam those who are.


Randy has a point regarding respecting people of different backgrounds. I recommend toning it down with the constant witty/intelligent humor as that can seem standoffish to a lot of people who don't get all of it- which is your responsibility, as the speaker, if you expect for your message to get across and collaborate with others.

As for your question regarding needing information for your 3rd dimension (z), factor in that most feathers are 3-4" but can go longer and shorter so that should be your arc length. So just factor in what rate you want your "spring" (which is a real world visualization that a lot of users here could benefit from) to "incline" and that'll help you set it for fixed diameter shafts. Easton Fatboys are 23/64" while some are even fatter shafts at 27/64". Skinny skinny shafts like x10's are even skinnier (did I already mention they're skinny) but it's too late for me to be willing to go grab a caliper and measure mine.

I don't see too many people fletching longer vanes (the plastic doodads is the technical term :wink with helical so I'm not sure if it's possible/feasible- I generally see extreme helical fletching done with feathers.

Final thought: vane/fletching clearance will need to be considered. A drop away rest would be ideal as it gets the heck out of the way with very little thought/effort. A properly fit arrow will bend appropriately at the nodes and the tail end can be set up to be bending upwards as it passes over the rest (so vane clearance isn't really a biggie). Helpful link concerning some arrow characteristics: http://www.meta-synthesis.com/archery/archery.html
Additionally, feathers tend to bend a lot more out of the way when brushing past something so it won't be as much as a big deal as it would be with plastic vanes.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Geez...I feel like I've just stepped into an episode of the Big Bang Theory....and I'm the ditzy blonde!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rantz said:


> Randy has a point regarding respecting people of different backgrounds. I recommend toning it down with the constant witty/intelligent humor as that can seem standoffish to a lot of people who don't get all of it- which is your responsibility, as the speaker, if you expect for your message to get across and collaborate with others.
> 
> As for your question regarding needing information for your 3rd dimension (z), factor in that most feathers are 3-4" but can go longer and shorter so that should be your arc length. So just factor in what rate you want your "spring" (which is a real world visualization that a lot of users here could benefit from) to "incline" and that'll help you set it for fixed diameter shafts. Easton Fatboys are 23/64" while some are even fatter shafts at 27/64". Skinny skinny shafts like x10's are even skinnier (did I already mention they're skinny) but it's too late for me to be willing to go grab a caliper and measure mine.
> 
> ...



Before you go too far...

consider the aerodynamics of a TRUE helical.


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Before you go too far...
> 
> consider the aerodynamics of a TRUE helical.


I imagine it would be a large wind screen on the back end that would slow down the arrow quite a bit? I just wanted to answer some of the questions that he had unanswered.


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