# Why is it that people think equipment matters?



## TheLongbowShoot (Mar 23, 2012)

So, as you all know, a lot of kids and adults think that they need the more expensive equipment to shoot well. I for one don't have the best equipment, but I feel it hasn't held me back. 
So basically, why is it that so many people think they need to have the best equipment to shoot well? 
See, I'm using a $400 riser, cheap KAP limbs, Cartel main rod and side rods, and Shibuya sight and Carbon 1 arrows. 
I know full well that my equipment does the job, and I wont shoot better by upgrading, but it's that I have kids, and adults I think look down on me for my cheap equipment, and wonder why I use cheap stuff when they have the latest.
I just can't exactly see why it bothers people about others equipment, or that they need to have the most expensive.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Probably be moved, but if I was kicking their butts I'd have argument for what I use. If I was getting my butt kicked they might have the argument for a upgrade or a coach or better coach....


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Probably be moved, but if I was kicking their butts I'd have argument for what I use. If I was getting my butt kicked they might have the argument for a upgrade or a coach or better coach....


This couldn't have been said better. If you are scoring better than these folks looking down their noses at you, why would you care?


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## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

I got laughed at at my local range because I am shooting a conquest 2 with Eason A/C/E stabs, old sure-loc challenger, a classic scope, Easton super slam 's and a chappy boss release. I made a comment on how funny it would be if I beat them. I was told it would be impossible with my old crap. Then I put down a 298, 299, and a 296 scores on three Vegas rounds. 
Don't get me wrong I want a new bow but I don't need one. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Sponsored shooters need or at least should to shoot current model equipment. Even down to the label if the equipment itself hasn't changed one bit.

Why someone would look down or make fun of equipment shot by someone else? Either they are shallow or your buddies busting your balls. My buddies are always giving me grief from my shift and release.

Most people just want to look like "the man" and having all the latest and greatest makes them feel like they are, but when they don't shoot up to the level of how they look it kinda backfires


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I have actually had students outshoot their equipment. don't say it can't be done - because it can. I have seen it first hand. Doesn't happen very often. Does one have to have the most expensive bow on the market - no. But if you got it - get it.



.02


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The only people I know that always have the latest new equipment as soon as it comes out are staff shooters.

As far as high end vs budget, there really isn't such a thing in the compound target world, only new vs used. I personally like to have the latest just to know for certain I've got the best that is available. Makes it easy to put the blame where it's due when I miss. I can see that carrying over to the more options available for recurve setups. If you have the top shelf riser and limbs, you know that your equipment is as good as it gets.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

subconsciously said:


> I have actually had students outshoot their equipment. don't say it can't be done - because it can. I have seen it first hand. Doesn't happen very often. Does one have to have the most expensive bow on the market - no. But if you got it - get it
> 
> 
> 
> .02


Either their equipment was utter rubbish or they are world class shooters. I doubt either.


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## Trentsheath (Apr 12, 2012)

I started shooting at age 14 I had a PSE nova, i shot consistently around 1150 in the FITA90m but soon had hit an equipment wall. The bow was to slow and the ATA was a bit to short for a 29" draw lengh. To shoot well with that bow you had to be very careful with your form. Also I had a a prong rest which wasnt very forgiving ln slightly poor releases and i had cartel stabilizers which just werent stiff enough. The day i got my conquest 4 i was shooting better already, the day i got my axcel sight and went from the cartel to that, my shooting improved, the day i got my new long rods, my shooting improved. 

When people say "the pros would be able to shoot that set up well" i ask what do you consider well because i definitely wouldnt have seen reo shoot a world record with that set up.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Yet, Braden G. shot a world record with a decade old design. I think equipment matters, but I also think you can get by with older that equipment that has proven itself. I'd never make fun of anyone shooting a Conquest, Apex, UltarElite, ProElite, Scepter or even an old Barnsdale bow... because all of those are proven winners that have cleaned Vegas. Ditto goes for later models like Contender Elites and Vantage Elites. You can pick up any of these bows for under $400 and as long as you're a good shooter you will be competitive.


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## TheLongbowShoot (Mar 23, 2012)

My scores show that the best equipment doesn't matter, but it doesn't stop people from still making fun for my equipment lol


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with having something new and nice and there is nothing wrong with shooting something a little dated. There is something wrong with the guys who go through 5 bows a year and always finding excuses why the bows they had this year just didn't perform so they had to get rid of them and are hoping the next one is the one that actually shoots well. 

My bow shop gave me a bowtech specialist in late 2010 and I am still shooting it, I shoot 40 or so 3d tournaments with it a year and do 100 % of my training with it and I would love to win out of semi pro with it and shoot it in the pro class if I can figure out how to get better. I wasn't a good shooter when I got it and I have learned how to be a strong shooter with it in my hands. I am on my third set of limbs and countless string sets and my current limbs are peeling just like all the other ones but it just keeps shooting dead on month after month year after year. 

I never have been a polish my stuff kind of guy, I can remember when i was a dirt bike rider and guys would show up with bikes that looked like they were right off the show room floor. My bike still had the mud caked on since the last time I rode, now the chain had been cleaned along with the air cleaner and I might have some new grips on the handlebars glued on. The funny thing was the idiots with the polished bikes rode the trails and at the end of the day the bikes looked pretty much the same as when they showed up because they didn't hit the muddy trails and actually have fun. Yeah, my bike got another layer of sweet mud caked on for the ride home.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Does equipment matter, Dang Right it Does.

If you don't have a set of long stabs and the correct weight on them you are hurting your shooting.

If the stabs you have are really weak and wiggly then you come to anchor and have to wait for them to settle down you are hurting your shooting.

If you don't have a release that has the ability to be set with no creep you are hurting your shooting.

If you don't have a sight that is easily adjustible and has the ability to be set up with 1st 2nd 3rd axis and hold its settings you are hurting your shooting.

If you don't have arrows that can be grouped tuned to perfection and then hold up to a beating from behind month after month you are hurting your shooting.

If your cheap string set changes all the time and you can't keep your bow shooting strong because of the stretch you are hurting your shooting.


If you do your research and study the equipment out there within the last 10 years you can put together a sweet shooting bow and components that costs you a fraction of the new stuff and shoot just as strong as you would if you had a brand new bow with every thing new offered right now.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

What is really cool is that some of the older bows are so good that they are turning into stuff to get and upgrade, like the destroyer 350. To me it is about the perfect hunting bow with speed and accuracy and they are old enough to be pretty cheap but you can get a set of barnsdale limbs for it and turn it into something really cool.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett said:


> There is nothing wrong with having something new and nice and there is nothing wrong with shooting something a little dated. There is something wrong with the guys who go through 5 bows a year and always finding excuses why the bows they had this year just didn't perform so they had to get rid of them and are hoping the next one is the one that actually shoots well.
> 
> My bow shop gave me a bowtech specialist in late 2010 and I am still shooting it, I shoot 40 or so 3d tournaments with it a year and do 100 % of my training with it and I would love to win out of semi pro with it and shoot it in the pro class if I can figure out how to get better. I wasn't a good shooter when I got it and I have learned how to be a strong shooter with it in my hands. I am on my third set of limbs and countless string sets and my current limbs are peeling just like all the other ones but it just keeps shooting dead on month after month year after year.


Have you shot the Fanatic 2.0?

If you haven't, I recommend you do. I'm not a Bowtech guy, but I really like that bow.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Trentsheath said:


> I started shooting at age 14 I had a PSE nova, i shot consistently around 1150 in the FITA90m but soon had hit an equipment wall. The bow was to slow and the ATA was a bit to short for a 29" draw lengh. To shoot well with that bow you had to be very careful with your form. Also I had a a prong rest which wasnt very forgiving ln slightly poor releases and i had cartel stabilizers which just werent stiff enough. The day i got my conquest 4 i was shooting better already, the day i got my axcel sight and went from the cartel to that, my shooting improved, the day i got my new long rods, my shooting improved.
> 
> When people say "the pros would be able to shoot that set up well" i ask what do you consider well because i definitely wouldnt have seen reo shoot a world record with that set up.


I mean you no offense but this is my thinking, around here we call it "new shiit syndrome" you get a new release, you shoot better. Is the release better? No. But it's new so you do everything by the numbers and you don't drop a point or two by being lazy.

Your new bow I can see helping, it might be longer, have a grip that fits you better, the tolerances might be better, have more brace height.
But unless you wiggle like a washing machine stiffer stabilizers won't make you aim better, they will settle down quicker thus giving you more time to aim before your shot runs out. Were they the same length? Are you running the same weight? If being stiffer makes them more accurate how can anyone explain all the 1400+ scores Cousins shot with rubber mounted weights on his doinkers?

How can a sight make you more accurate? Shooting fita as you mentioned, you set your sight and shoot 36 arrows. Unless your other sight moved and you didn't know it the sight doesn't matter for accuracy. 

Your rest, absolutely!! A prong was about as unforgiving as you could get.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Padgett said:


> Does equipment matter, Dang Right it Does.
> 
> If you don't have a set of long stabs and the correct weight on them you are hurting your shooting.
> 
> ...


I disagree with much of this

Long stabilizers
The BHFS record at redding is only about 13 points behind what the Pro FS record out of 1540 points possible and That has more to do with the sight and the fact that the best turn pro to make money and don't shoot BHFS

A weak and wiggly stabilizer only takes a half second to calm down so unless a guy is shooting 20oz out front he won't really notice, again explain all the scores shot with rubber mounted weights

My release has lots of travel, so does every hinge out there

I still shoot my toxonics nail driver, it doesn't have 3rd axis adjustment (unless I bend the scope rod) but it is dead on for 3rd axis, so how it it hurt hinge my shooting?

I can't argue with your opinion on arrows and strings


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

duc said:


> Either their equipment was utter rubbish or they are world class shooters. I doubt either.


Really? You don't know me or my students so you can keep you snide s.a. comments to yourself.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Snide remarks? The truth sometimes hurts.
That's a snide remark.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Snide remarks? The truth sometimes hurts.
> That's a snide remark.


You made a snide remark, accept it.....


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Show me someone who can outshoot their equipment and I'll show you a world champion. Is that better?
Or. How bad does your equipment have to be to outshoot it? 
Get real guys. Modern bow and accessories aren't that bad that you can out shoot them.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Guys, you lost me on the weak stabilizers wiggling around or whatever. They made out of rubber or rubber mounted? Weak is not capable of handling the weight stuck on them. Weak is one going bonkers at/after the shot. Most horrible stabilizer I ever shot had my bow arm going up and down. We had 3identical 26" stabs come in and 2 were just plain weak and were sent back. I have the one that proved good and I think I could use it for a jack handle, but even it has it's end weight limit. Most horrible stabilizer I ever saw shook the person shooting. This stabilizer was made for a Olympic traditional bow and he used on it on his compound bow. Remember those long suckers with the chrome or stainless steel ball on the end? Some were designed to be used for different weight balls...

If you don't know how to adjust or set up some piece of archery tackle? Hey, this doesn't mean a upgrade.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Show me someone who can outshoot their equipment and I'll show you a world champion. Is that better?
> Or. How bad does your equipment have to be to outshoot it?
> Get real guys. Modern bow and accessories aren't that bad that you can out shoot them.


Better, but not "bad equipment." There are some people who can benefit with more sophisticated pieces of equipment. It's like the so-called "Super Tuned" bow. You have to be capable to take advantage of it. A newbie couldn't tell the difference between a half decent set up bow than a super fine tuned bow.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

More then once I have taken a bow from someone who has complained "IT" shoots bad, pretended to do things to it, done nothing, given it back and hey presto, the guy shoots better. ARCHERY IS SOOOOO MUCH MORE THEN EQUIPMENT.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

duc said:


> Show me someone who can outshoot their equipment and I'll show you a world champion. Is that better?
> Or. How bad does your equipment have to be to outshoot it?
> Get real guys. Modern bow and accessories aren't that bad that you can out shoot them.


One of my students was progressing well. But Madison would get a flyer here and there. Kid had great form and follow through. His dad and I were talking and I suggested Madison was out shooting his bow. The bow was a great kids bow, but had spongey back wall. His dad went upgraded to a new bow with a solid back wall and guess what? His scores went up and he won state indoors with a 600 and 112 x's as a cub shooting BHFS. He went on to win state outdoors and has since grown into a fine young man. 

Of course duc I'm sure you know more and have done more for archery than anyone in this forum. I choose not to coach many adults as many are just like you. Know it alls. I've coached 1 adult and she is twice national indoor champion. 

These are my students. Tonight was our first JOAD class of the year.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I said what I believe in my first post. You choose to take it personally. Why?
So they, under your own submission, were shooting a beginers bow with a spongy wall. Of corse there will be an improvement with a better quality bow. In other words they were shooting a crappie bow, which is what I said.
Now I'll insult you. It pays to look in the mirror when you make assumptions about people. Don't stoop to personal attacks because I said what I believe and what I have observed because it is in disagreement with your views. keep it civil.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Even with the results, did the person really get to where they "outshot" the equipment, or did they find equipment that was easier for them to shoot. Put the old bow in a hooter shooter and see if the score with the new bow is better then the old bow in a shooter.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Duc- you said you doubted both - I proved you wrong. You keep it civil. 

Thawk - people are not hooter shooters.

I'm done with this thread. I hate internet bickering. It's for children. 

Later


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I think some are confusing apples to oranges. Of course good equipment will perform better than crap but old doesn't necessarily equal crap. I have the latest and greatest but the bow that is working best for me right now is a 2009 Vantage Elite. There is a lot to be said for form, fit and feel regardless of year produced.
With regard to outshooting your equipment, I've done it. Early on in my shooting an upgrade from a McPherson Dream to a Conquest Pro provided a big jump in my performance. More recently I've gone through a shoulder rehab which required several levels of equipment changes as I got stronger.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

subconsciously said:


> I choose not to coach many adults......


Huge respect for you, for volunteering your time and money to acquire your NTS certification and spend the time working with the kids. We have a couple L3 coaches here that work with about the same number of kids. JOAD is a great program.

This forum is poison for genuine information delivery. I'm pretty sure most everyone knew what you were talking about. For example, everything I could possibly do to get my hunting bow shooting good, will not get it even close to what I can do with my Podium. So I can upgrade that equipment and perform better.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> I think some are confusing apples to oranges. Of course good equipment will perform better than crap but old doesn't necessarily equal crap. I have the latest and greatest but the bow that is working best for me right now is a 2009 Vantage Elite. There is a lot to be said for form, fit and feel regardless of year produced.
> With regard to outshooting your equipment, I've done it. Early on in my shooting an upgrade from a McPherson Dream to a Conquest Pro provided a big jump in my performance. More recently I've gone through a shoulder rehab which required several levels of equipment changes as I got stronger.


I think that's what I wanted to say.... Like EPLC, I've done some changes since recovering from shoulder surgery, some to my bow, some in the way I shoot, even went to a different release that has more adjustment....


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

subconsciously said:


> Duc- you said you doubted both - I proved you wrong. You keep it civil.
> 
> Thawk - people are not hooter shooters.
> 
> ...


I understand people are not hooter shooters, my point was the person probably found equipment that was easier for them to shoot, so they didn't outshoot the equimpments ability they outshot their own ability to shoot that equipment.
If I get a new bow and shoot better is it that I outshot my old equimpment or did I just find something that works better for me?

I once set up a bear black bear and shot a 300 22x on the vegas face because someone was blaming his bow for his scores, another time I forgot my sight, I cut a business card to a point loosened the sight mount and tightened it down on the card, bent it around the front of the riser and figured out where to aim, I shot a 299 21x so I have a hard time when people say "I could shoot better with a better sight" I even shot on a target in vegas with a guy using a geniuses when they first came out, he shot a high 29? And a 300 the days we shot together


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Dang, I liked my post and it got shot down.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Not shot down just a different opinion


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I know, I love it. I have been on here all day long just blowing time and I enjoyed your comments more than anything else today in any of the threads.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

subconsciously said:


> Duc- you said you doubted both - I proved you wrong. You keep it civil.
> 
> Thawk - people are not hooter shooters.
> 
> ...


Without bickering what would we talk about?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

thawk said:


> I understand people are not hooter shooters, my point was the person probably found equipment that was easier for them to shoot, so they didn't outshoot the equimpments ability they outshot their own ability to shoot that equipment.
> If I get a new bow and shoot better is it that I outshot my old equimpment or did I just find something that works better for me?
> 
> I once set up a bear black bear and shot a 300 22x on the vegas face because someone was blaming his bow for his scores, another time I forgot my sight, I cut a business card to a point loosened the sight mount and tightened it down on the card, bent it around the front of the riser and figured out where to aim, I shot a 299 21x so I have a hard time when people say "I could shoot better with a better sight" I even shot on a target in vegas with a guy using a geniuses when they first came out, he shot a high 29? And a 300 the days we shot together





subconsciously said:


> I have actually had students outshoot their equipment. don't say it can't be done - because it can. I have seen it first hand. Doesn't happen very often. Does one have to have the most expensive bow on the market - no. But if you got it - get it.
> 
> .02


I've had equipment that shot well for me and equipment that I couldn't hit anything with. I can see how someone could easily "outgrow" their equipment and find better scores by moving to something that was more complimentary to their shooting style. I can also see how some people can just shoot anything with some degree of success. 

Much of this has to do with confidence. There is no substitute. If the best equipment provides it then go for it. I mentioned my Vantage Elite shooting well for me right now (it's a custom built bow with GTX's and pre-Vantage XT-2000's on it). Still, I have this Podium X 40 that I really would like to shoot instead. I've ordered new cams and will be trying to get the Podium to hold like the Vantage if it kills me. There's always something to be said for new and shiny.


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## 12bhunting (Sep 9, 2009)

Equipment does make a difference no matter what you are into. I could frame a house with a $3 Wal-Mart hammer, but I prefer my estwing. I could shoot my 40 year old bear bow that has no back wall what so ever, but I prefer my newer compound. I could put a $40 simmons scope on my 7 mag, but I prefer the best glass I can afford. You can kid yourself all you want, but it makes a difference.


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## 12bhunting (Sep 9, 2009)

I could however frame a house with a $3 hammer. I have killed deer with my old bear. And I have killed deer with a scrappy Bushnell scope. But why would I choose to use this "equipment" when there are better choices out there?


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Why you might choose to is simple,
Look at eplc's post, his old bow hold and shoots better for him.
Maybe someone can't afford a new bow
Just because something is more expensive or newer doesn't make it better.
You used a hammer as an example, I could buy a $4000 honda generator but my chop saw won't cut any better then it does with my $700 generac. I had to decide weather the honda durability and reliability was worth an extra $3300 my generac is about 5 years old now and still going strong.

The worst part of being sponsored is when you have a bow you love and it practically shoots itself and they discontinue it. Then the new bow doesn't shoot near as good for you. Sure its new, and shinny and "better" or at least that's what the company tells you but you may never shoot it as well. Everyone is different and one bow is not the best for everyone, that's why I don't think anyone has ever outshot their equipment I feel they just found equipment that is better for them


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I think people feel they need other/better equipment because they can't get the best out of themselves. So it's easy to blame then change. I'm not saying this to deride people, it's a simple observation I've seen over the years. Advertisers know this and play/prey on this. People get into a comfort zone and can't or won't change. It's easy to blame equipment then ourselves. It happens in all sports. It's human nature. 
I think this is a better answer to the OPs question.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And then "personal preference" raises it's ugly head.... To me, "mine's best" doesn't get. \

I've two old Sure Loc Challengers. Would have been three old Sure Locs except some one laid down too much green stuff for my old Supreme. These sight frames are going on 15 years old and there ain't anything on the market today that is better or would make me better.....

My old UltraTec hangs on the wall...Well, because it's old, 16 years old. When I hung it on the wall, the only bow that hangs on my wall, it was still getting the job done. It got called out of retirement due my newer bow breaking down.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with personal preference. I have my favourite bike, fishing rod, bow. Hell, I even have a favourite pen. I can't do any "better" with my favourite things and don't attribute any performance aspects to them. It comes down to ME, how I perform or adapt.


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## FeelMyWrathSHO (Oct 27, 2014)

Equipment matters, but to an extent imo. Otherwise, why buy a target bow or flagship bow and accessories when you can buy a ready to shoot package for $300-400?

But yea I think people get caught up too much in name brands, marketing and what the pros are using.
There are smaller folks making legit stuff that's just as good if not better and not trying to make a whole bunch of money in the process but doing it out of the sake of improving archers and archery in general.
Not saying name brands aren't doing that either but marketing takes a lot of money that potentially takes away from R&D.
There are a lot of gimmicks out there too imo so ya gotta take everything with a grain of salt. 

I bet most people probably just want to fit in and/or don't really know how a bow and arrow actually work, nothing wrong with that though, we all started somewhere.
Unless they're busting your chops because you don't have brand -x- but that's when the mental game comes into play. :wink:

I do get a kick out of peoples reaction when I bust out the old 80's Oneida Eagle and shoot just as well as most. 

But it is nice to have good quality stuff though, name brand or not.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> There's nothing wrong with personal preference. I have my favourite bike, fishing rod, bow. Hell, I even have a favourite pen. I can't do any "better" with my favourite things and don't attribute any performance aspects to them. It comes down to ME, how I perform or adapt.


What I meant was people saying theirs is best over what someone else has.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> What I meant was people saying theirs is best over what someone else has.


I think Sonny this is human nature. Look at "Whays the best...." threads to see this. Modern bows are very repetitive machines. Inconsistency from a bow means it's not well made and leads the archer to be inconsistent. ALL archer, weather world champion or not are inconsistent, no repeated perfect score shows this. The better shooters are just more consistent at what they do. 
Weather the OP is a troll or not, it's still a relevant thread for debate.


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok, the old fart has to chime. Equipment can help you but with extreme limits. Back walls, speed, tuned arrows, stabilizers, scopes, can improve shooting about 10% overall. The rest is the Indian not the arrow. The better you are, the closer to the 10% it will make. If you punch, don't have a clue on technique, you might as well have stuck with your black bear, money won't help you be a pro.
The archery industry is much like golf, because a pro shoots lights out, buy this one, you'll be like Tiger or Reo.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I just want solid equipment.


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