# A video to help change your gap



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Short video I made trying to help you understand how changing your nocking points can change your point on to much more desireable distance.


Hope you enjoy..


Dewayne Martin

http://youtu.be/RuYZE5LKKxY?list=UUSK2GrCJiFMt7nIg8GdDhqw


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Great vid.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Very cool Dewayne...thx for posting. I'm looking forward to watching your other vids.

Question; So i get that you are essentially locking in a crawl for the slot range you expect to shoot. When moving the noking point like that what about arrow flight with a BH? Does this create issues with penetration, etc? 

Reason I ask is at tourneys I've seen some pretty crummy arrow flight from some of the string walkers at the edge of their optimal tune- and thats with FP's.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Dewayne, thanks. Once again nice shooting.
Dan


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Beendare

If you bare shaft tune for a single crawl you can get perfect flight. It's when you tune for one crawl and then change crawls that you get funky flight. 

Matt


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Great video and I think it is great to see more educational videos on adjusting your gap from guys like you that are known for your good shooting 

I too am curious about Broadhead flight altering your tune for point on adjustment 

Thanks


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Matt already answered it 

Thanks


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## cecil2 (Nov 6, 2008)

Great vedio Dewayne. Thanks for sharing.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I will check BH flight tonight...I didn't have an issue with it last year but will recheck...


Dewayne


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## reelman1 (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi; Great video, thanks! I have a question, though...when I move my nocking point away from "optimum", my arrows start porpoising, and bare shafts hit nock high...I've always been under the impression that there's only one good nock height for proper arrow flight... is that not so? Thanks for any info, I would LOVE to be able to adjust gap with nock height, I just didn't think it was doable...
Rob


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Rob, in no way am I saying you could go to the extremes of raising your nocking point...I think an inch high would be about as high as I would want to go..but I'm not sure...I will find out later this week.

I believe there is a variance of optimal nocking point to achieve good arrow flight...I use to take and lower my NP til I started getting the arrow to bounce off the shelf then I'd raise it up 1/8" nut it seemed like my PO was too far for my hunting...John Dimmer showed up last year with a NP of 1-1/4" high, his arrow flight was less than desirable but his PO was verybdesirable..he won the tournament...field points aint BHs and they fly differently....experiment with your NP and see the good and the bad.


Hope this helps,


Dewayne


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Good video Dewayne, thank you for posting.

What is your anchor? Would you mind posting a video showing your anchor and release?

Thanks,

KPC


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Good video, thanks - curious about the broadhead flight also.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Nice video Dewayne, thanks for taking the time.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

great video, really is going to help me for tuning my next bow i just bought..thanks


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Do you prefer 2 brass nock sets or tied on nock sets?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

My anchor is really high and my release is somewhat a dead release even though I know that's not most desirable...I use two brass nocks simply because of the ease of use.


heres the video with broadheads.

Hope you enjoy!!


http://youtu.be/0DxmRQLaZQY




Dewayne Martin


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## reelman1 (Oct 15, 2009)

Dewayne;
Thank you for the videos...I'm definitely going to play with this...I'm curious to see how much I can adjust before flight does become "unacceptable"...I shoot vanes off a rest, I'm not sure how that will affect things...that's what I love about this sport, the learning process never ends...thanks again!
Rob


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

Great job on all the videos. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time putting it all together. Much appreciated


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I Love videos and I enjoyed that 

I have a question 

I know you are not a big bare shaft tuner 

It is very hard to see arrow flight with the bare eye 

If I remember right you paper tune 

If you would happen to have a bare shaft I would love to see how it is coming off the bow or at least thru paper 

I understand what you are doing and I totally understand it for 3 D and using a gap system 

I really appreciate the videos and hope to see many more


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Joe....thanks for the response...I don't paper tune nor do I bare shaft....when I use to bare shaft and paper tune evything showed up stiff...like tearing plum across the paper stiff.

I take those same tearing the paper in half arrows and easily shoot average of 290+ on NFAA 300 rounds...then I shot my CXL 250 thru paper and same thing..really stiff 8" tear...take those arrows and get 4" groups at 30 yards...it just doesn't work for me so I waste my time on funner things like shooting my bow...LOL!!!


My arrows don't paper of bare shaft tune with field points and you want me to try them with broad heads??? No thanks ...LOL!!!!




Dewayne Martin


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Joe, I think of it this way. It's not better tune it's better form.
Dan


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Good video Dewayne, thank you for posting.
> 
> What is your anchor? Would you mind posting a video showing your anchor and release?
> 
> ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOkEubHzWM8


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> Joe....thanks for the response...I don't paper tune nor do I bare shaft....when I use to bare shaft and paper tune evything showed up stiff...like tearing plum across the paper stiff.
> 
> I take those same tearing the paper in half arrows and easily shoot average of 290+ on NFAA 300 rounds...then I shot my CXL 250 thru paper and same thing..really stiff 8" tear...take those arrows and get 4" groups at 30 yards...it just doesn't work for me so I waste my time on funner things like shooting my bow...LOL!!!
> 
> ...




I never meant with Broadheads  

Dwayne 

All I know is that we need more videos and learning threads from guys like you and I am so glad you got a camera  

Please keep it up and I am one of your subscribers 

I am of the school of though that the quicker the arrow stabilizes the better penetration I am going to get so I am a big advocate of bare shaft etc

But I would never argue with your results and what works for you 

I shoot a subconscious gap and my hunting shots are very close on heavy animals so I am just looking for the best flight I can get. If I would go to a conscious gap I can really see how this would work 

How is penetration on game ? 

Please keep the videos coming and big thanks to a shooter of your caliber taking the time to post these videos. We need more of this 

Call Demmer and Potter and Rogers and get them going


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Joe, I think of it this way. It's not better tune it's better form.
> Dan


We all know Dwayne's consistent and I'm working on it  

The day after I posted the Denton Video Rod called me and said stop moving your dam head  

Love that guy


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Joe, I'm sorry I don't know where I got you wanted me to bare shaft broad heads...even Potter knows better than that!!!LOL


Joe you said you would never argue with my results....but as I've said before archery is so very personal..what works for me might not work you....my hunting set up last year was the same bow,weight,arrow and broad head....I shot two deer both does and a turkey got complete pass thrus on the deer but the turkey I shot about an inch low at the wing bone at 27 yards went in to the other side but never came out...the deer one was 11 yards...the other was at 34.5 tight behind the shoulder dressed 144# 

Penetration for me has always been good but I don't hunt elk or moose or caribou...but if did I would change my point on to my advantage.

Dewayne Martin


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Joe one more thing normally when you have bad arrow flight you will see it in your peripheral vision as soon as the arrow launches...I've seen none of that even with the nocking point at 1"


Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Great videos DeWayne, thanks. Can you expand a bit more on your anchor point and arrow spec to get this PO.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Great stuff Dwayne please keep it up 

There is an urgent need for real world quality instruction out there


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Thank you Dewayne...via Irishhacker.

KPC


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I think I will try this technique with my Hoyt Horizon and/or Omega Imperial for 300s.

vabowdog, What is tiller like on your ILF target rig? -1/8? Have yet to watch the other vids.

Now I just have to dig up some 33" arrows!

Thanx again.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Tiller for my IBO Barebow is +1/4" 


For my indoor bow is +3/8-1/2"


Dewayne


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

JParanee said:


> We all know Dwayne's consistent and I'm working on it
> 
> The day after I posted the Denton Video Rod called me and said stop moving your dam head
> 
> Love that guy


LOL. I didn't want to say any thing, because I have the same problem and the results are always the same. I drop my release hand down instead of back around the face.

You have a good heart so i hope it didn't hurt to bad. Keep working I know I will.
Dan


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Bigjono...I shoot a full length Carbon Express Heritage 250 in a woodgrain pattern standard insert and 125 grain head...im shooting 50#


heres a video of how it looks under my eye


http://youtu.be/GOkEubHzWM8


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

DDSHOOTER said:


> LOL. I didn't want to say any thing, because I have the same problem and the results are always the same. I drop my release hand down instead of back around the face.
> 
> You have a good heart so i hope it didn't hurt to bad. Keep working I know I will.
> Dan


I always like constructive criticism 

It only stings a bit  

Seriously what has gotten me by killing deer at 12 yards was not good enough and I am more excited about my shooting than I have ever been 

It is only natural to get frustrated but when you can even taste Constance it is so sweet that I just want more 

Rod and john Wert have been a blessing for me and I have learned after 40 years of shooting what is possible with a stick bow 

Ray and Mike and I leave for the muzzy shoot in a week or so 

It is a fun elimination style tournament that I am looking forward to 

I want some pressure and I am easing my way into it 

I am feeling good and looking forward to embarrassing myself


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

"I always like constructive criticism "

Not an expert here...just noticed in your last vid (great vid!) that you appear to slip back into your compound style fast over draw and then settle back to anchor.

Seems you might consider emulating your friend Ray, with the slow smooth draw straight to anchor.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

wseward said:


> "I always like constructive criticism "
> 
> Not an expert here...just noticed in your last vid (great vid!) that you appear to slip back into your compound style fast over draw and then settle back to anchor.
> 
> Seems you might consider emulating your friend Ray, with the slow smooth draw straight to anchor.




I noticed that too..itry to draw directly to my anchor but sometimes I have to settle in....


Ray who???




Dewayne


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi guys I'm was never a compound shooter  

I play with lever cams and fingers a bit but I've never been a compound guy 

What you are seeing is an over emphasized j draw and crutch I do to break away from snap shooting  

I come out and in and settle behind my jaw 

Remember I'm a work in progress and Rod is working with me


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Just watched the next two vids...great vids. Looking forward to watching the rest.

Really excited about trying some of these techniques. Feeling very fortunate to be getting such great information from advanced AT members.

17 yard PO! wow...will try for the 21 yard PO you mentioned in another post.

Now need to get some work done.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

My buddy Ray who won the Eagle eye last weekend 

Strong shooter and great guy


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Dewayne, that's a great video, very helpful! I'm curious about your tuning though. Do you just tune for visible flight and impact then? Or do you use certain method?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Great stuff Dwayne please keep it up
> 
> There is an urgent need for real world quality instruction out there


Amen to that!


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I can guarantee that if you bs with a 1.25" high knock point, you will about 4 yards in front of a target that is 2 feet off the ground at 20 yards. Lol


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Dewayne, I might never talk to you again. You are getting to popular.


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Great videos


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

kegan said:


> Dewayne, that's a great video, very helpful! I'm curious about your tuning though. Do you just tune for visible flight and impact then? Or do you use certain method?



Began, yes I only worry about arrow flight by vision and grouping....that's all.


Dewayne


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for putting this video together. Lots of good info I can personally use! I sub your channel, ty.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Demmer said:


> I can guarantee that if you bs with a 1.25" high knock point, you will about 4 yards in front of a target that is 2 feet off the ground at 20 yards. Lol


I want a Demmer video


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I've seen Dimmer shoot.....I don't think I want to see a Dimmer video!!!!


Just kiddin John, I'm your biggest fan...unless you're competing against me.


Dewayne


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Lol. You guys are too funny. 
I'll do a video whenever I'm shooting a little better. Don't hold your breathe. Lol


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> Beendare
> If you bare shaft tune for a single crawl you can get perfect flight. It's when you tune for one crawl and then change crawls that you get funky flight.
> Matt





vabowdog said:


> heres the video with broadheads.Dewayne Martin


Guys thanks for the detailed explanation and videos......................and taking the time to help a brother out. 

I feel like I should come over and mow your lawn or something as payback- grin


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## gutshot2506 (Feb 3, 2010)

Good advice...I'm gonna experiment with this!


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## Mr cheebo (Nov 1, 2010)

Dewayne,

Have you or any others on here tried raising your NP higher using a springy rest? Just thought I would ask before I start ripping my fletching off. Thanks for such a clear and informative video. Such an eye opener. 
Thanks for any advice

Wayne Walker


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Wayne I'm not sure how the springy rest would react...you Amy have tomadjust the rest back so it's sitting against the arrow at the same angle as before???


I don't shoot a spring so I'm not sure....try it record it and post it...we would all like to know.



Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Using a soft rest like a springy will reduce you gap some all by itself. I'm shooting a soft wire on my AAE rest right now to reduce my gaps which compacts my crawls (easier tuning)


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Wow it works. Easy as 1, 2, 3. Made a new string (16 strand D75 with Nock Point at 1 1/16"). Switch to 3 under. Point at the center of the target.









Two fletched and one bare shaft in the dirt...as I was pointed at the bottom of the blue ring. Then a form error threw one over and behind the target. Then got things pointed correctly and hit a five...with 20 yard point on. Cool.









Second end had some bow arm (point float was not settling) and eye dom issues to work out with the new 3 under anchor. Had a bad shot bounce out arrow (the one standing)...then got things lined up and hit a 5x PO at 20 yards. My jaw dropped before the last arrow hit, as it was so obviously a good shot.

I was in a hurry as light was fading and did not change tiller after shooting my normal split finger that afternoon. Just changed the string and started shooting 3 under.

21" Excel with long 34# limbs for 40#s at 30" (new 16 strand string with high nock point). 32" Easton Carbon Storm 340 spine with 200g tips (32 3/4" nock to tip).

Can not wait to try this with the 25" Horizon riser, long 32# limbs, a 14 strand string and lighter arrows (400s with 175g tips?) for a 21 yard PO.

Thanx again!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Wseward, glad it's working...let me know how you're adjusting tiller....you would think raising your NP that high you would have to adjust tiller maybe to dead even or even a negative tiller?? I'm not sure I haven't played with it that much yet.


Thanks again,


Dewayne Martin


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I haven't tried it with broadheads but with my nock point at 3/4", bare shafts start to hit significantly lower than fletched field points and land very nock high. I suspect that broadheads might tend to do the same thing. Of course, I don't really care what bare shafts do as long as fletched broadheads and fletched field points go to the same spot.

No tiller adjustment on my bow.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Absolutely great thread


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

MGF said:


> I haven't tried it with broadheads but with my nock point at 3/4", bare shafts start to hit significantly lower than fletched field points and land very nock high. I suspect that broadheads might tend to do the same thing. Of course, I don't really care what bare shafts do as long as fletched broadheads and fletched field points go to the same spot.
> 
> No tiller adjustment on my bow.


MGF, If i am hunting I don't really care if my BH hit were my FP hit. I have always adjusted for the BH to hit the spot in every setup that I have own.

Tiller adjustment to me is a finer adjust of the nock point and how the bow feels after the shoot and more importantly how it draws to the spot.
Dan


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

So you just tune for the broadhead?

The problem I see with BH and FP not hitting the same spot is that makes it hard to go back and forth. I guess that as long as you know both nock positions it isn't a big deal to move it around.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Yep, got marks on my T square showing the different set points. Now if all three setting are the same then that would be ideal. With the compound I made all the adjustments at the fallaway rest. However, both have tie on nocks sets at center shot which is generally around the plunger hole location.
Dan


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Well yeah, that was my question. If bareshaft and fletched arrows are hitting the same, you have a tuned arrow...and arrow that is flying well vectoring all of the energy to the tip of the BH maxing out arrow penetration. I've seen arrows with poor light hit and animals and penetrate 4" and cartwheel off the animal...so yeah, of course perfect arrow flight matters...and much more in hunting than target shooting. So what if an arrow hits a target at an oblique angle? Can't do that hunting.

Again, Great thread...thanks Dewayne


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Beendare said:


> Well yeah, that was my question. If bareshaft and fletched arrows are hitting the same, you have a tuned arrow...and arrow that is flying well vectoring all of the energy to the tip of the BH maxing out arrow penetration. I've seen arrows with poor light hit and animals and penetrate 4" and cartwheel off the animal...so yeah, of course perfect arrow flight matters...and much more in hunting than target shooting. So what if an arrow hits a target at an oblique angle? Can't do that hunting.
> 
> Again, Great thread...thanks Dewayne


I agree. I've been shooting a single 20 yard crawl. Bare shafts were showing just a little bit stiff. I thought it might be "good enough" but this morning I shot some broadheads and they didn't fly all that well.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot that setup on targets or small game using blunts. Fletched field points grouped fine and hit right where I put the point of the arrow. I just wouldn't shoot broadheads without doing a little more tuning.


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

MGF said:


> I agree. I've been shooting a single 20 yard crawl. Bare shafts were showing just a little bit stiff. I thought it might be "good enough" but this morning I shot some broadheads and they didn't fly all that well.
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate to shoot that setup on targets or small game using blunts. Fletched field points grouped fine and hit right where I put the point of the arrow. I just wouldn't shoot broadheads without doing a little more tuning.


I've found that using a crawl really makes my arrows act stiff as well, though I managed to tune it out with brace height. But now I think I've got more noise...


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

When you are setting up a bow to shoot from a crawl your starting from scratch. It's like setting up a new bow. If your shafts are too stiff correct it just like you would normally.


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## HISCRAMENESS (Sep 27, 2010)

Awesome


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I used to be a completely average instinctive shooter and was recently thinking that I should be a better shot by now. I just didn't have the consistency that I wanted. I saw this video a couple weeks ago and it inspired me to try gap shooting. 

I found out with my set up and normal anchor that my point on was about 45 yards. Way to far for my liking when I'll only take a 20-25 yard shot on a deer. I raised my nock point, started shooting 3 under and now anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth and the cock vane touching my nose. Point on moved to 20 yards and I feel more confident than ever to hunt with my trad gear. I've never done it because I didn't feel confident enough to make the shot when it counted. Now I'm shooting the best groups I've ever had at 20 yards, fletched and bare shafts grouping together and I know what my elevation hold is at 15, 20, 25 and 30. Before it was a shot in the dark but this video has shown me the light haha.

Thanks for taking the time to do this!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Hunt, glad it helped...it's all about better accuracy...being able to make the shot...and know you can make the shot...instinctive works for a few but not most...if you don't have the consistency you're aft at home you will never transfer that to the field.


Glad it helped


Dewayne Martin


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Guys, if you are at all concerned about arrow flight with broadheads when using a high(er) nock then shoot through paper WITH FLETCHING at various distances and find out what it's doing. If your hung up on bare shaft tuning results then you aren't going to like high nock sets. Everyone needs to take in to consideration, however, that fletching cleans up nock orientation coming out of the bow very quickly........Trust that the fletching will do it's job because it will. The ultimate result we are looking for in any tuning method is that broadheads and fp's impact the same mark, not what bareshafting field points says we should do.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Roger Savor Sr said:


> Guys, if you are at all concerned about arrow flight with broadheads when using a high(er) nock then shoot through paper WITH FLETCHING at various distances and find out what it's doing. If your hung up on bare shaft tuning results then you aren't going to like high nock sets. Everyone needs to take in to consideration, however, that fletching cleans up nock orientation coming out of the bow very quickly........Trust that the fletching will do it's job because it will. The ultimate result we are looking for in any tuning method is that broadheads and fp's impact the same mark, not what bareshafting field points says we should do.


I haven't shot with broadheads yet but my bareshafts are grouping with fletched using a higher nock point. Maybe I got lucky and they'll both fly well.


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> I haven't shot with broadheads yet but my bareshafts are grouping with fletched using a higher nock point. Maybe I got lucky and they'll both fly well.


You may well have "got lucky" indeed. .......Just want people to understand that they aren't hunting with bare shafts, so the results they get with the bare shaft tuning method aren't necessarily a requisite for perfect broadhead flight, and that's because they aren't. Some of us have actually done their homework here and proved it, just like what DeWayne did.


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## fieldnfeathers (Nov 7, 2013)

Great videos. Thanks for sharing. Confirmed my feeling that a static release can work very well.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I've said this before and I will say it again....if your arrows with or without broad heads are flying well and impacting good why bother with bare shafting or paper tuning.

I've not spent 5 minutes TOTAL bare wafting or paper tuning in my WHOLE archery career...for me it's a waste of time. 


Some people get way too carried away with paper tuning...if your bows not cut to center or close it's not going to paper tune accurately until you get 7-10 feet away from the paper anyhow...if your shooting a bow cut 3/16-3/8" before center there's a chance it won't paper tune accurately until your back 15' from the paper.

Most shooters need to worry about developing a method and shot sequence that they can shoot three arrows in a 4" group at 20 yards, once you can do that then you will know immediately whether your arrows are stiff or weak.


Dewayne Martin


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## Ybuck (Apr 21, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> I've said this before and I will say it again....if your arrows with or without broad heads are flying well and impacting good why bother with bare shafting or paper tuning.
> 
> I've not spent 5 minutes TOTAL bare wafting or paper tuning in my WHOLE archery career...for me it's a waste of time.
> 
> ...


I cant tell for sure what my arrows are doing while they are going 150 fps to a 20 yard target.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ybuck, make them white and pink. It's easier to see, even to 190 fps


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## drawemback (Dec 6, 2006)

I think a lot of beginners such as myself, get their first recurve and start shooting a somewhat instinctive style because it is by far the easiest way to sling an arrow at the beginning. Accuracy does not improve without a ton of practice and dedication. Thanks for the video as I am ready to take the next practical step to improve this addicting sport.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Dwayne,
Do you have the same point on distance for your hunting bow and 3-D bow? Just curious. BTW I shot with George Cavelius yesterday and he had good things to say about you AND your shooting.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Dog, pretty close for IBO 3-D I use a 27 yard point on for hunting I like a 25 simply because simpler numbers and math...George is a great guy got to shoot with him on the last day at Trad Worlds and Worlds.


Hope this helps,


Dewayne


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