# Unserved end loops?



## x-slayer1440 (May 21, 2012)

What is the benifit of un- served end loops on a recurve string? I have always shot them served with the same as I use for my center serving. But I have been seeing more and more un served loops.
Thanks
Ryan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

x-slayer1440 said:


> What is the benifit of un- served end loops on a recurve string? I have always shot them served with the same as I use for my center serving. But I have been seeing more and more un served loops.
> Thanks
> Ryan



save serving thread I suppose. or you only have two nails

other than that-absolutely nothing


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

Served end loops tend to be easier to make look pretty in terms of a smooth transition from the loop to the string (for those who haven't tinkered with different methods). A few folks even claim that they are out in out more durable. My opinion (based on my string making and tinkering) is that tag end served end loops (when you're seeing string material wrapped around the end loops instead), is that the loop tag end serving can fray if handled too roughly (perhaps not waxed enough) when being made and not even necessarily in a structural way- but just with a few stray fibers poking out.

On the other hand, there are people on here who have had zero issues with the tag end methods. If done with care and gently, they can look just as good if not better based on the eye of the beholder. I use techniques pretty much like these: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1947551

Honestly, if you're concerned, you can just do served end loops just like you would with tag ends. It can be done with just a two post jig (Like a string stretcher or even two nails carefully spaced apart on a 2x4 if you're in a pinch).

When doing recurve strings, just match it to your current string as far as loop size and string length are concerned. You can always add a few twists if necessary. It's not like you have a rear peep or a d loop to worry about lol


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rantz said:


> Served end loops tend to be easier to make look pretty in terms of a smooth transition from the loop to the string (for those who haven't tinkered with different methods). A few folks even claim that they are out in out more durable. My opinion (based on my string making and tinkering) is that tag end served end loops (when you're seeing string material wrapped around the end loops instead), is that the loop tag end serving can fray if handled too roughly (perhaps not waxed enough) when being made and not even necessarily in a structural way- but just with a few stray fibers poking out.
> 
> On the other hand, there are people on here who have had zero issues with the tag end methods. If done with care and gently, they can look just as good if not better based on the eye of the beholder. I use techniques pretty much like these: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1947551
> 
> ...


THe OP was talking about RECURVE strings. I often used unserved loops on a compound


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

Jim C said:


> THe OP was talking about RECURVE strings. I often used unserved loops on a compound


I was aware. I have read about numerous recurve people using tag end served strings on here without any complaints. The technique of doing tag ends that is shown in that thread I linked to can certainly be used on the endloops of a recurve string.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Rantz said:


> I was aware. I have read about numerous recurve people using tag end served strings on here without any complaints. The technique of doing tag ends that is shown in that thread I linked to can certainly be used on the endloops of a recurve string.


Amazing, Rantz....never made a recurve string in your life....

Tag ends would only be at one end of the string....do you realize how long they would need to be to do the ~100mm of serving you would need for just one end of the string?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

x-slayer1440 said:


> What is the benifit of un- served end loops on a recurve string? I have always shot them served with the same as I use for my center serving. But I have been seeing more and more un served loops.
> Thanks
> Ryan


I have not seen unserved end loops on many recurve strings. Of course most of the recurve strings I see are ones I made since just about every person who shoots serious recurve around here is part of our club. But my two club members who are RAs shoot served end loops as does one of of our other coaches who has a fair amount of hardware. I cannot recall seeing unserved loops on any top competitors's bows I have examined. DOesn't mean they didnt. I just never saw one


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Ryan,

Have you looked at Flemish strings? 

SB


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Have you looked at Flemish strings?
> 
> SB


A flemish 12 strand string has 12 strands in the loops, while the endless has only 6 strands. Not serving the loops is the quick & cheapest way of doing it. 
on a compound, did you ever try to put the loops back on the pegs of the wheels with out having some of the strands hang off


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Some limbs have so small end tips (like Borders) that unserved ends are really only viable options. And it's easier. No effect whatsoever to durability if you don't handle it badly.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Never needed unserved end loops on any of my Border limbs, from XP10s to HEX6s. 

I have seen one GB archer shoot strings with unserved loops - Vlada Priestman. She was shooting an Avalon with Hoyt C+ limbs as I recall. She told me it was to gain a little speed, but I don't think it would make a huge difference.


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## x-slayer1440 (May 21, 2012)

I'm shooting formula limbs if that helps. I've been seeing a few people shooting them un served in the male cadet division. And I think Khatuna does or she did at one time.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

John_K said:


> Never needed unserved end loops on any of my Border limbs, from XP10s to HEX6s.


A lot of borders were popping out of risers, no matter how small loops were made. Unserved loops ended that. I don't need them with my long xp10's or txg's, but ppl who shoot short hex5's, some with 23" risers, said that they definitely help.

I serve some and leave some unserved, depending on if I can find my string jig out of all the junk I have around. Doesn't make any difference to anything, I find.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

zal said:


> A lot of borders were popping out of risers, no matter how small loops were made. Unserved loops ended that. I don't need them with my long xp10's or txg's, but ppl who shoot short hex5's, some with 23" risers, said that they definitely help.
> 
> I serve some and leave some unserved, depending on if I can find my string jig out of all the junk I have around. Doesn't make any difference to anything, I find.


I'm not saying it's never happened, but that genuinely surprises me. I've never had any trouble making a string loop small enough to fit even very slender limbs.


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## x-slayer1440 (May 21, 2012)

So y'all are saying there's really no advantage or disadvantage to un served end loops. I'll eventually try both and see what works better on the formula limbs


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

If it doesn't make a difference in the life of a string, it sure would save a bunch of time and material making a string. 

dave


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

The third option is to hand serve them using string material, rather than serving material. Kinda like some small compound cable loops.

Honestly, I can't see any difference between the three, maybe in ye olden days when you had to put padding to loops to keep limb tips from flying away.

I wouldn't do it with, say 14 strand string, but with normal 18-22 I've had no issues.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Are you talking about Flemish twist bowstrings? Not sure I follow what an unserved end loop would look like on an endless loop string.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

brtesite said:


> A flemish 12 strand string has 12 strands in the loops, while the endless has only 6 strands. Not serving the loops is the quick & cheapest way of doing it.
> on a compound, did you ever try to put the loops back on the pegs of the wheels with out having some of the strands hang off



Blew up a compound once when a few of those strands slipped off....won't ever shoot a string like that again....


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Amazing, Rantz....never made a recurve string in your life....
> 
> Tag ends would only be at one end of the string....do you realize how long they would need to be to do the ~100mm of serving you would need for just one end of the string?


No need to get personal. We both are apparently picturing different methods to make a string. I by no means claim that there is only one way to make a string. You and I do our end loops/servings differently. It is possible with techniques that I use to serve the actual end loop with string material and then end serving with regular old string serving. OR you can hand serve the end loops with string SERVING material (perhaps even a smaller diameter if desired) and then serve the end serving with serving material (J uses this method). Considering how often the end loops are handled on a recurve string, I would make any for myself or others with actual serving material on the end loops rather than string material.

Also not having tag ends on one end isn't a hinderance. You would just use a strip of string material (or serving material if that is what you prefer) and rather than passing both tag ends through the top of the bundle each time- you would instead run one through the top and the other through the bottom.

Long story short, different strokes for different folks. There is more than one way to skin a cat, etc etc


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

I have been building mine with tag ends. Waxed and burnished - they work and hold up very well! Makes a much smoother transition from the loop to the string.


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

Ray knight said:


> I have been building mine with tag ends. Waxed and burnished - they work and hold up very well! Makes a much smoother transition from the loop to the string.
> 
> View attachment 1606518


That looks phenomenal- hands down :happy:


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

zal said:


> Some limbs have so small end tips (like Borders) that unserved ends are really only viable options. And it's easier. No effect whatsoever to durability if you don't handle it badly.


Been shooting Borders for years never needed unserved end loops. I've spoken to a lot of archers that use Borders none of them have had this issue. 

I make my own strings yes I do make my end loops smaller for Border limb tips. I only single serve with Brownell No4 serving. I try too keep serving as short as possible to reduce weight at limb tip. I think if you are shooting at a high level you will see a slight improvement in arrow speed if you use string material for end loop serving because it is lighter than most standard servings.

just my 2c worth.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Are you talking about Flemish twist bowstrings? Not sure I follow what an unserved end loop would look like on an endless loop string.
> 
> John


Nah, endless loop. Try it, for club bows where the string always stays on its a nobrainer, it's about half the time to make a string. A friend of mine has shot his bow with unserved loops for years and swears by it. I've shot them up to 50# with no problems. Wax them slightly and they stay well bundled. I wouldn't try unwaxed material, like angel dyneema to do that, though.

I think the issue with borders is with limbs, if the limb is perfectly straight, then there's no problems. At least couple of pairs I know which seem to cause slipping are slightly twisted - not so that they are unshootable, but just so that it doesn't line up perfectly with a straight riser. I never needed that small loops, but those with 66" and 64" seem to.


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## Rantz (May 17, 2012)

Something occurs to me:

I think that the OP was originally asking about end loops with no serving whatsoever on them (no tag ends no string material nada). That did not originally occur to me. Sorry for misinterpreting the question. I have no experience with completely un-served loops and am going to get out of the way of that discussion. I'll just peek in to read the responses.

Besides, I am definitely not an expert on the subject matter, but just wanted to insert my 2 cents worth. If I am incorrect or something sounds a bit off, just let me know (via pm or whatever and we'll figure it out). I don't want to misinform people. On a more selfish note, I definitely want to have the correct information.

-Rantz


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I have made my last few strings by serving with just tag-ends and I have to say I really like it. Very fast to make but that isn't the #1 reason. The tag end serving is very supple so I find there is no serving separation where the string makes an abrupt turn out of the nocks. So far I've only put maybe 1000 shots on the string but it appears to not be wearing appreciably. I wouldn't do it with really skinny string material though.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> No need to get personal.


I think Scott is feeling a bit frisky today.



> If I am incorrect or something sounds a bit off, just let me know (via pm or whatever and we'll figure it out).


I think he did. LOL!

Gotta admit, I'm no string making guru either. There are a lot of ways to build a bowstring, apparently. I only know standard endless and Flemish. Interesting to note though that most Koreans still use worn out fast flight strings, so I wouldn't worry too much over this.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I think Scott is feeling a bit frisky today.


I am....my heart condition came back during Nationals in Georgia....3 procedures and almost $300k+ and I can't go to the Olympics now....


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> A lot of borders were popping out of risers, no matter how small loops were made. Unserved loops ended that. I don't need them with my long xp10's or txg's, but ppl who shoot short hex5's, some with 23" risers, said that they definitely help.
> 
> I serve some and leave some unserved, depending on if I can find my string jig out of all the junk I have around. Doesn't make any difference to anything, I find.





zal said:


> Some limbs have so small end tips (like Borders) that unserved ends are really only viable options. And it's easier. No effect whatsoever to durability if you don't handle it badly.





DWAA Archer said:


> Been shooting Borders for years never needed unserved end loops. I've spoken to a lot of archers that use Borders none of them have had this issue.
> 
> I make my own strings yes I do make my end loops smaller for Border limb tips. I only single serve with Brownell No4 serving. I try too keep serving as short as possible to reduce weight at limb tip. I think if you are shooting at a high level you will see a slight improvement in arrow speed if you use string material for end loop serving because it is lighter than most standard servings.
> 
> just my 2c worth.





zal said:


> I think the issue with borders is with limbs, if the limb is perfectly straight, then there's no problems. At least couple of pairs I know which seem to cause slipping are slightly twisted - not so that they are unshootable, but just so that it doesn't line up perfectly with a straight riser. I never needed that small loops, but those with 66" and 64" seem to.





John_K said:


> I'm not saying it's never happened, but that genuinely surprises me. I've never had any trouble making a string loop small enough to fit even very slender limbs.



there are quite a few sets of border limbs IN this very thread...

so carefull Zal

Remember, if you cant back it up... Deformation of character is a libel affair...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I find NO Logic in why a smaller neck would unhook a served string!

So fire away with your unfounded comments Zal


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Deformation of character is a libel affair...


My character gets "deformed" here every day. Don't let it bother you. *Defamation* of character however, is a much more serious topic. 

Scott, sorry to hear that. Why would it keep you from trying out for the Olympics though?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Scott, sorry to hear that. Why would it keep you from trying out for the Olympics though?


The drugs I would need to take are on the banned list, beta blockers and what-not....trying to keep the dream alive as I see the cardiologist today....

My last two bad episodes occurred while shooting....I am wondering if it is related to holding my breath....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, I get it. Sorry bud. Work through it. Where there's a will there's a way. 

Is there any provision for that sort of thing in para? Would you even meet those criteria with your condition?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I can get a TUE, but since I am considered a "non-national" level archer, I am OK to shoot just about anything and if by some accident I won, I would just need a form filled out....

I don't think Para is an option....

More worried about my life expectancy now...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just lost a dear friend and wonderful member of our community at age 51. Nobody is guaranteed anything. I worry about my life expectancy every time I get in my car and get on the highway. Just try to make the best of whatever you have and count your blessings every day.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> My character gets "deformed" here every day. Don't let it bother you. *Defamation* of character however, is a much more serious topic.
> 
> Scott, sorry to hear that. Why would it keep you from trying out for the Olympics though?


Cheers John your the law man, Im just a bowyer. My spelling and grammer were never my strongest points.

Not may people share Zals Views of our product, So before he starts boasting about his limited experience and at best 3rd hand experience... he should know more facts.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink....49079&comment_id=7924470&notif_t=feed_comment

http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f127/do-our-tips-cause-unstringing-184619/


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I can get a TUE, but since I am considered a "non-national" level archer, I am OK to shoot just about anything and if by some accident I won, I would just need a form filled out....
> 
> I don't think Para is an option....
> 
> More worried about my life expectancy now...


Please excuse my debate with Zal.

its meer petty in comparison!


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Sid,

not all border shooters follow (fan) forums. I have seen it happen plenty enough times, I've never experienced it with my borders, though. I've seen the limbs fly almost all the way to 18m target line. Not something you'd want to stand next to or wait to happen for yourself. It is very well known among border shooters here that you need to make extremely small loops, and then you have no problems, or at least very little chance.

Please don't make this another flame thread. I can only talk about my own experience. Which is mostly positive. I do still own two pairs of Border limbs, even though they are both borrowed out to my students.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> Sid,
> 
> I have seen it happen plenty enough times,
> .


Impressive.

ive seen and handled almost every pair of limbs thats left the factory. ive watched every one being made. strung up and tillered by hand by someone with a riser. pull them 20-40 times each. all with flastflight bow strings. as the limbs are cycled. tillered to the requested weights, we dont even put the screw in the front of the limb or have the little nipple in there. Yet they have not gone flying.

Your an impressive source of all the information we dont know about.

I dont know how you know these things.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> A lot of borders were popping out of risers, no matter how small loops were made.
> .


we make limbs to order. Any irregularities we find are fixed as soon as we find them.

you have, in one sentence infered alot of our limbs were popping out of risers.

how many limbs of ours are in finland for you to come up with this statement?

please consider we dont have a dealer in finland, and 80% of our product is bought direct? so we know whats out there...and if there were complaints its not being filtered through a dealer or distributer?
So our understanding is RAW.. its real. its first hand.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Border debates, like instinctive shooting, tend to creep into a lot of threads where they don't belong...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> A lot of borders were popping out of risers, no matter how small loops were made. Unserved loops ended that. .





zal said:


> Sid,
> 
> . It is very well known among border shooters here that you need to make extremely small loops, and then you have no problems, or at least very little chance.
> 
> .


is it me or do or dont small loops make a difference?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Border debates, like instinctive shooting, tend to creep into a lot of threads where they don't belong...


i agree John. sometimes fact and fiction dont belong in the same place either.

I dont know what Zals beef is, but it never starts with a compliment.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

In my club we have 2 pairs of hex5, 1 pair of xp10, 1 pair of txg, 1 pair of cxg, also archers well known to me have 1 pair of hex4 (which I owned before) 3 pairs of hex5, 1 pair of cxg. That's probably 90% of borders in Finland currently in use. Our archery community is very close and I know pretty much every active target shooter there is in Finland. Those two pairs of hex5 we have in our clubs are those which have had problems, one is 66" 48# or 46# and the other is 68" and 46# or so. That 68" pair was used by the previous owner to shoot 1322 fita, but he switched to other limbs very quickly. I could tell you the reason for that switch too, but I guess it would be like waving a red flag in front of your eyes.

I rather doubt any of the owners of those limbs would report stuff like that back, a lot of purchases are made bulk by one or two people who buy limbs for several people who don't purchase overseas themselves and a lot of stuff goes through second hand market. Pro shop used to sell them through JVD back in the day, new stuff is straight from you or second hand mostly.

And I still adore my xp10's. I just HATE the fanboy culture.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Thread hijackers aside, most Soviet-era USSR shooters used unserved end loops wrapped with teflon plumber's tape for a period from the late 70's through the early '90's, and a few Russian shooters still use this method. The "explanation" was that this would allow the loop to move with less friction on the tip groove. Modern end loop materials probably have a lower effective friction coefficient than Teflon plumber's tape in this application.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> .
> 
> I rather doubt any of the owners of those limbs would report stuff like that back, a lot of purchases are made bulk by one or two people who buy limbs for several people who don't purchase overseas themselves and a lot of stuff goes through second hand market.


cunning.

about 50% of the people claiming warrenty with us are not the original owners. Finland must be uniquely well guided morally.
This is amaizing.... The usual affiar through sites like this is "ive just bought these through ebay and they broke" and the chorus is "get intouch with the manufacturer and see what they say"
We have a reputation for supporting second hand gear as archery communities are small...
you must live in an island of different opinion!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

>--gt--> said:


> Thread hijackers aside, most Soviet-era USSR shooters used unserved end loops wrapped with teflon plumber's tape for a period from the late 70's through the early '90's, and a few Russian shooters still use this method. The "explanation" was that this would allow the loop to move with less friction on the tip groove. Modern end loop materials probably have a lower effective friction coefficient than Teflon plumber's tape in this application.


cool, didnt know that one...


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> cunning.
> 
> about 50% of the people claiming warrenty with us are not the original owners. Finland must be uniquely well guided morally.
> This is amaizing.... The usual affiar through sites like this is "ive just bought these through ebay and they broke" and the chorus is "get intouch with the manufacturer and see what they say"
> ...


I never said that any of the broke, they just fly away from the riser, the owner picks them up, dusts them, lacquers any nicks there is with nail polish, makes smaller end loop or unserved loop strings and continues. As I write, within 10 meters of me that 66" 46# pair is being shot. But with a string that has had the loops tightened several times using few knots of serving threads.

But c'mon, we are getting well off the issue. You do know that I like your limbs, I just don't understand the need of some features on them.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

So, if people make strings with loops that don't fit the limbs they're using, it causes problems. Shock, and furthermore, horror...



>--gt--> said:


> Thread hijackers aside, most Soviet-era USSR shooters used unserved end loops wrapped with teflon plumber's tape for a period from the late 70's through the early '90's, and a few Russian shooters still use this method. The "explanation" was that this would allow the loop to move with less friction on the tip groove. Modern end loop materials probably have a lower effective friction coefficient than Teflon plumber's tape in this application.


Which explains, I suppose, why Vlada Priestman was doing it. Ta


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Point was, you don't really need small loops in that instance if you leave them unserved, as that seems to have the very same effect.... Like it says in the first post, so you wouldn't need this silly flame war.

I haven't seen any baltic, or those few russian shooters who stray over the border, to shoot unserved loops, so probably it's something that has been dying out slowly over the border too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Thread hijackers aside, most Soviet-era USSR shooters used unserved end loops wrapped with teflon plumber's tape for a period from the late 70's through the early '90's, and a few Russian shooters still use this method. The "explanation" was that this would allow the loop to move with less friction on the tip groove. Modern end loop materials probably have a lower effective friction coefficient than Teflon plumber's tape in this application.


How did they secure the teflon plumber's tape?


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> How did they secure the teflon plumber's tape?


Wrap it tight and serve over the ends.


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