# My first 3d x-bow encounter



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well, I had my first meeting with some x-bow shooters last Sunday at a 3d shoot in MA. I had the pleasure of watching these morons break just about every safety rule known to man, and perhaps a few new twists thrown in for good measure. Yes, all my fears came true with this one little meeting, as it couldn’t have been worst if the 3 Stooges had been involved. 

1. The x-bows were cocked at all times, strung over the back, and left unattended on the ground at each shooting station. One was actually left cocked in the path between one target and the next because the owner was busy trying to fix a sear problem on another x-bow.
2. In one instance an x-bow was loaded prior to the nimrod getting to the shooting stake… and he was waving it around in the direction of other shooters.
3. Several times I saw the shooters load the x-bows with them pointed almost straight up in the air.

If clubs want to allow these things at 3d shoots, they should enforce the IBO rules concerning these devices. 

I'm going to post this here, the x-bow forum and the 3d forum because I believe it deserves attention.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

If I posted all the unsafe things compound archers have done in the 10 years I was a staff shooter or operator of commercial ranges I could fill a book

blame stupid people not the bow Paul-I get tired of xbow bashing and I guarantee you that if you go to any range in ohio and see holes in the ceiling the odds are far higher a compound did that then a crossbow


----------



## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

Just wondering if they had drawn a compound bow back with someone down range would anyone have said anything? To me sounds like the shooters and/or the management of the shoot should have acted on this. I've never seen a safety issue happen and be seen by others that someone didn't advise the offender on the spot. I would think twice about going to a place that tolerated this type of action and did nothing immediately to protect the shooters.


----------



## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

Jim C said:


> If I posted all the unsafe things compound archers have done in the 10 years I was a staff shooter or operator of commercial ranges I could fill a book
> 
> blame stupid people not the bow Paul-I get tired of xbow bashing and I guarantee you that if you go to any range in ohio and see holes in the ceiling the odds are far higher a compound did that then a crossbow


 Did you ever see a compound laying on the ground fully loaded and cocked
as was stated in #1 of EPLC's post


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> If I posted all the unsafe things compound archers have done in the 10 years I was a staff shooter or operator of commercial ranges I could fill a book
> 
> blame stupid people not the bow Paul-I get tired of xbow bashing and I guarantee you that if you go to any range in ohio and see holes in the ceiling the odds are far higher a compound did that then a crossbow


Jim, 

1. Two wrongs do not equal right.
2. I did not blame the equipment, just the people... and the club for not having proper rules in place.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

BigBirdVA said:


> Just wondering if they had drawn a compound bow back with someone down range would anyone have said anything? To me sounds like the shooters and/or the management of the shoot should have acted on this. I've never seen a safety issue happen and be seen by others that someone didn't advise the offender on the spot. I would think twice about going to a place that tolerated this type of action and did nothing immediately to protect the shooters.


Yes, I would have... Safety is always a concern of mine.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Top Cat said:


> Did you ever see a compound laying on the ground fully loaded and cocked
> as was stated in #1 of EPLC's post


another xbow basher trying to use the ancedotal evidence of xbow hater Paul to prove something

the fact is I have seen lots of unsafe behaviour and lots of arrows in the ceiling of various commercial ranges and it all was compound bows. I have yet to see a crossbow fire without the trigger being pulled and I can recount at least 8,000 dollars of dental injuries caused SOLELY by expensive releases FAILING without shooter error

as to shooter error-i have seen hundreds of premature arrow firings with compounds


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Jim,
> 
> 1. Two wrongs do not equal right.
> 2. I did not blame the equipment, just the people... and the club for not having proper rules in place.



the sad thing is paul its obvious to me the purpose of this post-which is rather unlikely to be seen by the miscreants in question-was not to correct the errors of a few fools but to serve as xbow bashing ammo

what would you think if everytime I saw a moron with a compound act stupidly I came to this forum and posted it

I would have been posting almost every day for ten years and you all would question what my motivations were


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> another xbow basher trying to use the ancedotal evidence of xbow hater Paul to prove something
> 
> the fact is I have seen lots of unsafe behaviour and lots of arrows in the ceiling of various commercial ranges and it all was compound bows. I have yet to see a crossbow fire without the trigger being pulled and I can recount at least 8,000 dollars of dental injuries caused SOLELY by expensive releases FAILING without shooter error
> 
> as to shooter error-i have seen hundreds of premature arrow firings with compounds


Jim, you're a smart guy. As a supporter of x-bows you would think you would want things like this to be addressed instead of defending these idiots.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Jim, you're a smart guy. As a supporter of x-bows you would think you would want things like this to be addressed instead of defending these idiots.


I am not defending idiots-I am questioning your motivation in posting it here given that your post has no intent or chance of changing their behaviour

you should have formally complained to the club rather then airing it here where all it does as serve the anti xbow crowd with more ammunition to justify their greed and bigotry

do you honestly think those guys are members of AT?


----------



## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

Paul, not to be disrespectful but…. what did you do about it? 
If it were me, I would have called it to their attention since they were putting me and everyone else in danger. Just wondering why no one pointed out to them their unsafe behavior and demanded they comply with safety.


----------



## AJ008 (Nov 20, 2002)

I don't know much about xbows, only shot a bolt once but dang those things have some power (and are fun to shoot through 3-D targets) and seem more dangrous that a rifle, you'd think people would be a little safer...

Monty's shooting a straight shaft I think...
You'd think the people putting on the shoot would have had xbow safety rules/the shooters would be responsible...

P.S. Since when could xbows compete in a 3-D tourney?
Also note I could care less about xbows vs. bows because out here they are legally considered a "firearm" so no one shoots them because a centerfire rifle is alot easier!


----------



## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

This same thread in the General section was moved by a mod. Where did it get moved to?


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Top Cat said:


> This same thread in the General section was moved by a mod. Where did it get moved to?


Cross Bow section


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

monty53 said:


> Paul, not to be disrespectful but…. what did you do about it?
> If it were me, I would have called it to their attention since they were putting me and everyone else in danger. Just wondering why no one pointed out to them their unsafe behavior and demanded they comply with safety.


I did call them on it and they were not responsive... as a matter of fact they were down right ugly about it.

I reported them to the club officials and they told me that they were not responsive with them either on other issues, such as proper shooting stake, etc. The club assured me that these people would not be welcome there anymore.

But the bigger problem was not with the idiots, it was with the club officials themselves. They didn't seem to know the rules either and each one that I spoke with had there own view of what should or should not be done. This concerns me more than anything. If the clubs don't know what safety rules should apply to x-bows (or any other equipment) than how can we expect to be safe on these courses? 

Thus the point of this thread... to point out to ALL clubs that there needs to be special attention paid to safety when considering this venue at your shoots.


----------



## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Cross Bow section


 Yeah, apperantly I am STILL banned from there. How long do these mods hold a grudge anyway? Who is the mod that can reinstate me? I promise I'll behave:wink:


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> I am not defending idiots-I am questioning your motivation in posting it here given that your post has no intent or chance of changing their behaviour
> 
> you should have formally complained to the club rather then airing it here where all it does as serve the anti xbow crowd with more ammunition to justify their greed and bigotry
> 
> do you honestly think those guys are members of AT?


1. Yes, you are.
2. I did..
3. I don't know whether they are or not, but many clubs and club members surely are. Those considering this venue at their 3d shoots should be aware of these issues and this is a very effective tool to spread the message.

Also, please be aware that you are not fooling anyone with this "bashing" stuff. Anytime anyone brings to the table any valid concern about your x-bow you claim "bashing". This is no more than a cover-up and end run tactic to bury the truth... Jim, to listen to you, one would think these x-bows only shoot suction cup bolts.

Oh, and for the record, I have no more problems with the x-bow than I do with any other firearm. It’s just the classification that bothers me. Classify the x-bow properly as done in several states and I'm happy as a clam.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> 1. Yes, you are.
> 2. I did..
> 3. I don't know whether they are or not, but many clubs and club members surely are. Those considering this venue at their 3d shoots should be aware of these issues and this is a very effective tool to spread the message.
> 
> ...


your post doesn't make much sense Paul and I think most of the posters who have seen this wonder what your motivation was

If we want to bash bad sports or unsafe idiots that is fine even though I doubt they come to this board

your goal was obvious and as another poster noted to me-he ran your name and xbows and it all was negative

do you go to a glock forum and whine everytime someone caps another homie with a glock? 

the fact is we all know you are trying to bash xbows. there was no purpose of your initial post-which you put on two or three different forums here than to whine about xbows and to insinuate this was usual stuff

you might fool other people Paul but not me:wink:

BTW Paul, the line that you compare xbows to "other firearms" pretty much shows your true colors so quit denying what the purpose of the post was


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Paul, while your issue is clearly with crossbows.....it should be with the club, and or course, the unsafe people.

As the president and 3-D setter upper guy of a large archery club for the last 15 years or so, I have seen all kinds of unsafe, and downright bizarre behavior.

I never blamed these actions on an inatimate object.

The clubs honcho told you that these guys were not responsive? Not responsive to what?

Do you mean to tell me that a representative of the club told them to behave, and they ignored the person? If so, are you going back to that club?

BTW, I am happy for you that these pathetic clowns happened to play right into your personal opinion of what crossbows will do to the world at large.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

True, I do not believe the x-bow should be classified with archery equipment and you will not find any posts of mine that support the x-bow. But, my reasoning for this is strictly based on the additional safety issues that can not, or will not be addressed. With the exception of range, the x-bow is "functionally" closer to a firearm than it is to the bow and arrow. 

Once again, The safety issues that I said would come into play in my previous posts came to light before my very eyes last Sunday. The group that had this loaded and cocked x-bow pointed at it had a couple of kids in the group.

I started this thread simply to point out that there are safety issues that need to be addressed above and beyond the typical safety issues of the bow and arrow when considering allowing x-bows on the 3d circut. Period. 

All your claims of x-bow bashing are no more than a tactic to avoid the real issues surrounding these mis-classified pre-rifles.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

OK, at least you cowboyed up to your dislike for crossbows. Plus one point for you!

However, did you actually see these nutjobs point a cocked and loaded crossbow at kids, adults, dogs, horses, or in any unsafe direction?


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Big Country... It is obvious to me that you have not read my posts. I have raised a valid concern and not bashed your equipment. What I am concerned with is the wisdom of turning loose people with a piece of equipment without understanding the ground rules. But you, like others refuse to address these concerns, and that just contributes to the problem as a whole. The "bashing" tactic will not work here because this is a valid safety problem. 

The IBO has come up with some pretty good rules concerning the safety and handling of x-bows at their shoots. I think it would be a much more responsible position to support these rules and stop worrying that someone may not like your toys.


----------



## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

EPLC said:


> .....
> 
> I started this thread simply to point out that there are safety issues that need to be addressed above and beyond the typical safety issues of the bow and arrow when considering allowing x-bows on the 3d circut. Period.


*
BULL CHIPS!!*

You didn't "start" one thread ..... you spammed several forums on here.

*WHY??*

That just shows your true motive and it wasn't to correct unsafe behavior of people that probably aren't even on here..

You're the typical crossbow basher. How does it feel to bash an inanimate object?That just shows your ignorance of crossbows.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Big Country said:


> OK, at least you cowboyed up to your dislike for crossbows. Plus one point for you!
> 
> However, did you actually see these nutjobs point a cocked and loaded crossbow at kids, adults, dogs, horses, or in any unsafe direction?


I was told by the group mentioned that this happened. Several in the group verified this and they were not happy. I did witness the other problems.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Why don`t we condense this discussion in one thread?

I replied in the crossbow section as well. Let`s pick one thread, huh?

While I am here.......there is a fundamental difference between us Paul.

I would have seen to it that these kooks acted right or left the grounds.

BTW, I don`t own a crossbow......never have. Don`t sell `em, or own stock in them either.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Oh... and for the record. I do not dislike crossbows. That is just another tactic to avoid the real issues. What I don't like is a piece of equipment being classified where it should not be. Further I do not like the lack of concern about safety with these things. Bring up a safety issue and you are a basher. Bull...

As far as x-bow are concerned... have a ball. But do it with yourselves, start your own clubs and have your own shoots.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

If you will go to the crossbow section....to the other thread you spammed there....you could read what some people do regarding safety, and running archery clubs, and setting up and holding shoots.

Nobody is ducking any safety issues.

Somebody hates crossbows.


----------



## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Big Country said:


> If you will go to the crossbow section....to the other thread you spammed there....you could read what some people do regarding safety, and running archery clubs, and setting up and holding shoots.
> 
> Nobody is ducking any safety issues.
> 
> *Somebody hates crossbows*.


Methinks you are on to something here..


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

willie said:


> Methinks you are on to something here..



wonder if that person hates "other firearms too" since he thinks a crossbow is a firearm


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

willie, I might have to let you take the reins on this one buddy. 

Blaming unsafe actions on a piece of equipment is lame.

NOT seeing that the unsafe actions stop immediately is pathetic. 

I do find it mildly amusing that when I stick up for crossbow usage in any way....I own and use them automatically.:wink: 

Good thing these guys were not using rocks, I would probably have a pocketfull of them too!:tongue:


----------



## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

Jim C said:


> wonder if that person hates "other firearms too" since he thinks a crossbow is a firearm


 You guys are really ......
Never mind, if I say what i think I will probably get banned from this forum as well as the xgun forum 
I can't speak for Paul but i love to shoot firearms. I also love to shoot the bow. I even like to shoot a crossbow. The thing you guys don't understand is Crossbows are not,in my and other peoples opinion,ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!
They belong in either their own class or the firearm season. But I guess I am getting of track. 
I think Paul started these threads to call attention to the safty issue of this equipment.If you can't see the blatant similarity between the safty issues of guns and crossbows you are as blind as the proverbial bat.
No one is bashing, just stating facts,no matter what we say you guys will never admit the fact you just yell BASHING


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Top Cat said:


> You guys are really ......
> Never mind, if I say what i think I will probably get banned from this forum as well as the xgun forum
> I can't speak for Paul but i love to shoot firearms. I also love to shoot the bow. I even like to shoot a crossbow. The thing you guys don't understand is Crossbows are not,in my and other peoples opinion,ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!
> They belong in either their own class or the firearm season. But I guess I am getting of track.
> ...


BS-BS and more BS- we know why this thread was started so don't insult our intelligence with this lame nonsense. Anyone who doubts me or Willie or Big Country can just review all of this fellow's posts on crossbows and claiming xbows aren't archery equipment is beyond stupid

No one is bashing xbows?:rofl:


----------



## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

Top Cat said:


> I even like to shoot a crossbow. The thing you guys don't understand is Crossbows are not,in my and other peoples opinion,ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!


It's great you and others have an opinion. Unfortunately studies, polls and comments to game departments taken from all - not just a select few - show otherwise. Amazing some just haven't figured it out yet. It's not their season - it's the states.
BTW this is how the recurve guys felt when compounds took over their season.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Well, I had my first meeting with some x-bow shooters last Sunday at a 3d shoot in MA. I had the pleasure of watching these morons break just about every safety rule known to man, and perhaps a few new twists thrown in for good measure. Yes, all my fears came true with this one little meeting, as it couldn’t have been worst if the 3 Stooges had been involved.
> 
> 1. The x-bows were cocked at all times, strung over the back, and left unattended on the ground at each shooting station. One was actually left cocked in the path between one target and the next because the owner was busy trying to fix a sear problem on another x-bow.
> 2. In one instance an x-bow was loaded prior to the nimrod getting to the shooting stake… and he was waving it around in the direction of other shooters.
> ...


I think the above says it all... The x-bow folks continue to avoid serious issues like the one above by claiming "BASHING"... or "You don't like x-bows". 

Every serious topic is turned into a tit for tat rather than coming up with valid solutions. But no... they would rather defend what isn't defendable than address valid issues like the one above. 

Walking around with a cocked x-bow on a 3d course is not a wise idea on any level. This practice leads to unsafe loading prior to being at the shooting stake. The IBO was wise to make a rule that no x-bow should be cocked prior to being at the stake. Is there a problem with this rule that has you folks in such a hissy fit?

Now... once again. The crossbow has a different set of handling and safety requirements than the typical bow and arrow. These handling and safety requirements are "functionally" closer to a firearm than the B&A. Because of these very distinct differences it is a very different venue and should be treated as such. Beyond that I have no problem with x-bows.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

1) No one is defending the ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed

2) the SAFETY PROTOCOL is basically the same for all bows

a) YOU DO NOT load or draw the bow until you are ON THE SHOOTING STAKE and you are CERTAIN that the party in front of you has CLEARED THE target area

b) the bow is not drawn nor loaded in a way that a premature DISCHARGE could cause the arrow to travel in an unsafe manner

c) the drawn and loaded bow is only aimed in the safe direction of the target.


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Jim C said:


> 1) No one is defending the ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed
> 
> 2) the SAFETY PROTOCOL is basically the same for all bows
> 
> ...



EPLC, You first hand account is not good enough for most procrossbow people. Especially for the the greatest spot shooter/ crossboyer above. There is only one opinion that counts and it ain't yours.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> 1) No one is defending the ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed


*Yes you are*



Jim C said:


> 2) the SAFETY PROTOCOL is basically the same for all bows


*No, it isn't. The safety protocol for an x-bow is more closely related to the rifle... or at least should be. There are cocking and loading issues that have been the topic of this discussion. *



Jim C said:


> a) YOU DO NOT load or draw the bow until you are ON THE SHOOTING STAKE and you are CERTAIN that the party in front of you has CLEARED THE target area


*That's not what I witnessed... And from what I saw, and the answers I received after the fact, I have to conclude this is common practice in this area. *



Jim C said:


> b) the bow is not drawn nor loaded in a way that a premature DISCHARGE could cause the arrow to travel in an unsafe manner


*Once again, this isn't what happened, thus the reason for this thread*



Jim C said:


> c) the drawn and loaded bow is only aimed in the safe direction of the target.


*Again, this is the problem I am trying to address.*


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> 1) No one is defending the *ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed*


Who's the real basher Jim? I pointed out an unsafe act, or series of acts, that myself and others witnessed... and as a result I've been the subject of various levels of name calling from basher to downright liar. At no time have I attacked you or anyone else. I didn't even attack your x-bow. I just questioned the actions witnessed and the solution. 

Once again, this behavior is no more than a tactic to beat down the truth. This tactic is commonly used today in politics when you have no ground to stand on. No, we don’t have a responsible position, so we’ll resort to name calling and beat the opposition with various distractions until the issue is buried beneath a not-so-fresh load of manure.

So, just in case you lost what this thread is about...



EPLC said:


> Well, I had my first meeting with some x-bow shooters last Sunday at a 3d shoot in MA. I had the pleasure of watching these morons break just about every safety rule known to man, and perhaps a few new twists thrown in for good measure. Yes, all my fears came true with this one little meeting, as it couldn’t have been worst if the 3 Stooges had been involved.
> 
> 1. The x-bows were cocked at all times, strung over the back, and left unattended on the ground at each shooting station. One was actually left cocked in the path between one target and the next because the owner was busy trying to fix a sear problem on another x-bow.
> 2. In one instance an x-bow was loaded prior to the nimrod getting to the shooting stake… and he was waving it around in the direction of other shooters.
> ...


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marvin said:


> EPLC, You first hand account is not good enough for most procrossbow people. Especially for the the greatest spot shooter/ crossboyer above. There is only one opinion that counts and it ain't yours.


More personal attacks from Marvin.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

As usual Paul, you want to huff and puff, but you will not answer any hard questions.


What did YOU do to stop these guys from acting unsafe?


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> *Yes you are*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


where Have I defended the behaviour Paul? No one else said they have seen such behavior so your claiming its common is either ignorant or prevarication

Are you denying the rules I have listed are not proper? 

what we question is 1) your real motivation for posting this on three different forums 2) why you extrapolate the behaviour of three clowns to everyone else who uses the same bow

that you have called crossbows "firearms" gives me plenty of evidence as to the motivation


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> More personal attacks from Marvin.


Look who's talking...



Jim C said:


> If I posted all the unsafe things compound archers have done in the 10 years I was a staff shooter or operator of commercial ranges I could fill a book
> 
> blame stupid people not the bow Paul-I get tired of xbow bashing and I guarantee you that if you go to any range in ohio and see holes in the ceiling the odds are far higher a compound did that then a crossbow


Diversion tactic...



Jim C said:


> another xbow basher trying to use the ancedotal evidence of *xbow hater Paul to prove something*
> 
> the fact is I have seen lots of unsafe behaviour and lots of arrows in the ceiling of various commercial ranges and it all was compound bows. I have yet to see a crossbow fire without the trigger being pulled and I can recount at least 8,000 dollars of dental injuries caused SOLELY by expensive releases FAILING without shooter error
> 
> as to shooter error-i have seen hundreds of premature arrow firings with compounds


Name calling tactic...



Jim C said:


> *the sad thing is paul its obvious to me the purpose of this post-which is rather unlikely to be seen by the miscreants in question-was not to correct the errors of a few fools but to serve as xbow bashing ammo
> 
> what would you think if everytime I saw a moron with a compound act stupidly I came to this forum and posted it
> 
> I would have been posting almost every day for ten years and you all would question what my motivations were*


More name calling...



Jim C said:


> I am not defending idiots-*I am questioning your motivation in posting it here given that your post has no intent or chance of changing their behaviour*
> 
> you should have formally complained to the club rather then airing it here where all it does as serve the anti xbow crowd with more ammunition to justify their greed and bigotry
> 
> do you honestly think those guys are members of AT?


Discredit tactic...



Jim C said:


> *your post doesn't make much sense Paul and I think most of the posters who have seen this wonder what your motivation was*
> 
> If we want to bash bad sports or unsafe idiots that is fine even though I doubt they come to this board
> 
> ...


More name calling and discredit tactic...



Jim C said:


> *wonder if that person hates "other firearms too" since he thinks a crossbow is a firearm  *


*

More name calling...



Jim C said:



BS-BS and more BS- we know why this thread was started so don't insult our intelligence with this lame nonsense. Anyone who doubts me or Willie or Big Country can just review all of this fellow's posts on crossbows and claiming xbows aren't archery equipment is beyond stupid

No one is bashing xbows?:rofl:    

Click to expand...

*More discredit...



Jim C said:


> 1) No one is defending the *ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed*
> 
> 2) the SAFETY PROTOCOL is basically the same for all bows
> 
> ...


More name calling, then just plain diversion...


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

After some soulsearching.......I am taking the afternoon off, and I am going to the club to scour the grounds and buildings for any sign of unsafe crossbow activity.

On another note.......every friday night we have an indoor 3-D tournament.

This Friday, February 3rd, I am offering FREE entry fees for any crossbow shooters to shoot our 30 target indoor course.

As always though....ALL safety rules will be enforced.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

X-bows are NOT fundamentally more like rifles then bows. In fact if you take out the fact that they can be "cocked" then they are pretty much the same.. So what they may be 5% like a rifle??

The safety on an x-bow does not make it more like a rifle. Many manufacturers have safety's built right into there hand held releases .. Why is a safety needed?? So they don't go off prematurely and hurt the user , by- stander or create property damage. Carter archery making rifle triggers?? Same reasoning I have seen here.

Read an article the other day were some hounds on the trail of a lion ran across a county back road. The only driver on that road hit the breaks and skidded to avoid hitting the animals that just popped out of the ditch in front of him. Some property damage but the driver was OK..

Now he wants to make hunting with dogs illegal. To much of a threat to the general public.. One hunter , One old boy cruising the back roads happen to meet at a particular point and time…… Now the whole world is at risk from these reckless hound hunters..

Few idiots, few scardy cat range official now x-bow use in general is a concern and gosh darn it I want something done about it. 

Idiots with x-bows , Fools with guns, Hunters that can't control there hounds, Crazy archers shooting peoples cats and dogs in the city .. ALL SAFETY CONCERNS Police them confine them eliminate the problem… In fact let's just eliminate dogs in general . Without them there would be no vicious attacks on people, No distasteful dog hunting, No target opportunities for misguided city dwellers. For the dogs and the general publics protection . Dogs must be eliminated correct?? I mean they have more in common with wolves and coyotes then the domestic pets that many "claim" they are..

Sound ridiculous … Good now you understand


----------



## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

Been some interesting reading. You know a guy comes on here with some safty concerns he want others to become aware of. Now the thread could have been wrapped around that but it turned into a contest of wills which really has little to do with the orgin of the main reason for the post. For the record I support everyone ability to play the sport of their desires. Compond, cross bow, long bows you get the idea. Perhaps if more time would have been spent by the Cross bow advocates saying... Darn right! That is wrong, give us the name of the clubs or organization and let us do alittle proactive teaching so there aren't ocurrances of safty issues and post like this in the future.... but it didn't go that way did it. There most definately has been personal attacks... Agendas, you bet, and alot of things being read into the intial Posts right from the git go with the title which got one side thinking with fragel feelings rather than content.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Grnmtn said:


> Been some interesting reading. You know a guy comes on here with some safty concerns he want others to become aware of. Now the thread could have been wrapped around that but it turned into a contest of wills which really has little to do with the orgin of the main reason for the post. For the record I support everyone ability to play the sport of their desires. Compond, cross bow, long bows you get the idea. Perhaps if more time would have been spent by the Cross bow advocates saying... Darn right! That is wrong, give us the name of the clubs or organization and let us do alittle proactive teaching so there aren't ocurrances of safty issues and post like this in the future.... but it didn't go that way did it. There most definately has been personal attacks... Agendas, you bet, and alot of things being read into the intial Posts right from the git go with the title which got one side thinking with fragel feelings rather than content.


Amen...


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Jim C said:


> More personal attacks from Marvin.


Truth hurts sometimes chest beater.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marvin said:


> Truth hurts sometimes chest beater.


when you have something truthful to post Marvin let us know :wink: 

Paul's comments were funny-I think we all can see what is going on here


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Really did not give a hoot until the 1/2 truths about a x-bow is more like a gun because they share the same fundamental safety requirements.
Here are gun saftey quidlines straight from eht NRA website. The only change I made was to substitute "weapon " wherever the word "gun" was used …
Seems to me safety is all the same despite the weapon being used. But I guess I just don't get it


ALWAYS keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction

ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

ALWAYS keep the weapon unloaded until ready to use.

Know your target and what is beyond

Know how to use the weapon safely

Be sure the weapon is safe to operate

Use only the correct ammunition for your weapon

Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.

Store weapons so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons

Be aware that certain types of weapons and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions

Cleaning ( keep weapon clean)


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

The three threads drew a lot of attention.....and a lot of opinions were expressed.

I think we can all agree that safety is a primary concern to us all.

Too bad we can't be more inclusive of all forms of archery and shooting sports in general. Diviciveness does us no good.

With that, this thread will be locked in 20 minutes; post your final responses....and no name calling.


----------



## Dredly (May 10, 2005)

Wow... so basically its anti-xbow not pro safety? Makes sense to me... you X-Bow guys sure have it rough!


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Dredly said:


> Wow... so basically its anti-xbow not pro safety? Makes sense to me... you X-Bow guys sure have it rough!


It had nothing to do with safety

does anyone think that these guys are regulars on AT?

safety concerns means addressing them at the place where it will do some good

this was an attempt to smear all xbow archers with the antics of these people who acted in ways that make no sense to anyone

what Paul tells us is that these guys would shoot a target, then cock their xbows and sling the cocked xbows over their shoulders or leave the cocked xbows at the stake as they retrieved the shot arrows.

Well I wasn't there but having seen thousands of arrows shot by hundreds of crossbow archers I have never seen such a thing.

Maybe I will start a thread about the guy who shot at the McKenzie while I was 15 yards behind it helping a cub archer find an arrow. That my Jennings was leaning against the shooting stake and the boy and his father's bows were on bowstands a few yards IN FRONT of the stake didn't seem to matter


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Well, I had my first meeting with some x-bow shooters last Sunday at a 3d shoot in MA. I had the pleasure of watching these morons break just about every safety rule known to man, and perhaps a few new twists thrown in for good measure. Yes, all my fears came true with this one little meeting, as it couldn’t have been worst if the 3 Stooges had been involved.
> 
> 1. The x-bows were cocked at all times, strung over the back, and left unattended on the ground at each shooting station. One was actually left cocked in the path between one target and the next because the owner was busy trying to fix a sear problem on another x-bow.
> 2. In one instance an x-bow was loaded prior to the nimrod getting to the shooting stake… and he was waving it around in the direction of other shooters.
> ...


Just so it isn't lost... and once again I've been accused of lying...


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

No one claimed you lied-we merely question the motivations behind making this post and your observations fly in the face of what I have seen -and I have seen lots and lots and lots of xbow archers


----------



## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

at a club i shoot at alot we had some people come thru acting like fools.. i walked right up to them and explained that if they were not going to heed to the general safety rules then i would make sure they were ejected...i was very nice and so were they...but i just couldnt stand by idle and let them keep going..i dont have anything against cross bows...but dumb people are dumb people....

and for the record...i have had to talk to compound shooters too...(sky drawers...etc)

some people dont have the brains of a rake...


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Jim C said:


> No one claimed you lied-we merely question the motivations behind making this post and your observations fly in the face of what I have seen -and I have seen lots and lots and lots of xbow archers


1) No one is defending the ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed


I am pretty sure that is telling someone he's a liar. HHMMMMM.... Nice try


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Jim C said:


> when you have something truthful to post Marvin let us know :wink:
> 
> Paul's comments were funny-I think we all can see what is going on here


Actually those that are blinded with hate and feel they are owed something because of "percieve" bigotry(we will just use your words), would probably fit your second sentence. When you have something that is not jaded to make your crossbow look like a weapon that killed the anti-christ, by all means post away.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marvin said:


> 1) No one is defending the ALLEGED BEHAVIOR you claim to have witnessed
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure that is telling someone he's a liar. HHMMMMM.... Nice try



I am sorry that you do not understand words Marvin. Ever watch the nightly news? A report of a crime and an arrest? The defendant is alleged to have robbed the convenience store? 

Nice Try marvin but again you are wrong.

What Paul claims to have witnessed may well have happened even though in 30+ years of being around crossbows I have NEVER seen someone shoot a target, cock his crossbow, leave it at the shooting line, retrieve an arrow, put the bow over his back and go to the next target. Could someone do this? sure. Based on my experience I find it rather improbable

I note you never dealt with my main point-what good does it do to whine about these ALLEGED MORONS (Paul called them morons-again that is ALLEGED) on THIS BOARD?


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

****Twice is enough. And that does not count the one I already deleted. That makes this the fourth time you posted the identical post. Spamming is a violation of AT rules. Please don't do this - RK****


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Once again my point...



this is bordering on Spamming Paul

the point we made is that whining about these people you call morons does no good since the chance of them reading about the malfeasance you claimed to have witnessed is zero to none

most of us believe the point was to smear xbow archers given that no one can reasonably believe your post was designed to correct their bad behavior


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> this is bordering on Spamming Paul
> 
> the point we made is that whining about these people you call morons does no good since the chance of them reading about the malfeasance you claimed to have witnessed is zero to none
> 
> most of us believe the point was to smear xbow archers given that no one can reasonably believe your post was designed to correct their bad behavior


Why, because you want to bury the issue with diversions, name calling and discrediting?


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Hope some realize*

Paul comments are diffiantly about safety

If that continues there will be someone get shot, you dont leave loaded guns laying around  Good points and they diffiantly need to be addressed.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Ready to fire weapons need to be pointed in a safe direction. Organizers of shooting events have to do everything to ensure the safety of it's participants. I think most understand that fact 

Now a few people acted in an unsafe manner and it needs to be at the Forefront of every forum and every discussion because of one reason …. They were OHHH THE HOORRROOORR crossbows .


What is the issue that needs to not be buried ?? People handled some weapons in a unsafe manner .. Is there a point or a recommendation that you would like to bestow on all of us ?? Is it that x-bows should not be allowed in the woods.. They should not be allowed at target events?? What is the point as none has been made as of yet. 

You seen fools with x-bows and organizers could not handle the issue .. You would like me to do what to help ensure this does not happen for you again?? When I see it I handle it …When it does not get handled I leave no reason to risk my safety if I REALLY feel threatened over 10 bucks and some foam What would I expect from you ?? I don't.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Yep definitely about safety …

So how about having a discussion about how this can be handled. Ask for some references as to rules since the Organizers seemed confused on how to handle the incident …Lots of ways to be constructive 

Instead I get people were idiots.. All my worst fears come to bear…. club need to follow IBO rules and they don't... x-bows are like guns.

What is the best ways to handle unsafe shooters and what can organizations do a better job of to help aid in participant safety. What should the shooters demand if there safety expectations are not meet?? A refund?? A free shoot ??

Nope did not see any issues about safety raised in my eyes . If so this is were the discussion would have moved to.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

centerx said:


> Yep definitely about safety …
> 
> So how about having a discussion about how this can be handled. Ask for some references as to rules since the Organizers seemed confused on how to handle the incident …Lots of ways to be constructive
> 
> ...


Love to...

1. IBO rules for x-bows are good ones. Clubs should adopt these rules or similar ones if they address these concerns properly. 
2. There should be a copy of the rules concerning x-bows posted at each club hosting these events. 
3. There should also be a flyer handed out to each x-bow shooter until such time where the rules can be considered common knowledge. 
4. A refusal to abide by these rules equals grounds for dismissal. This should be true for all venues.
5. Clubs should consider all safety issues and how they should be addressed BEFORE introducing ANY new venue to their shoots.

As a matter of fact, clubs should do this for each venue.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Love to...
> 
> 1. IBO rules for x-bows are good ones. Clubs should adopt these rules or similar ones if they address these concerns properly.
> 2. There should be a copy of the rules concerning x-bows posted at each club hosting these events.
> ...


*IBO Rules*

Crossbows may or may not employ a magnification sight. Whether a pin type or scope type sight is used it will not employ any range finding capability. Magnification will not exceed 8x if utilized. 

Crossbows may not exceed a draw weight of 190# and shoot a bolt (arrow) at a velocity no greater than 300 fps. 

All crossbows must have a working safety. Safety is to be kept in an on position until shooter is at stake and ready to fire. No crossbow will be cocked before shooter is at the shooting stake; it may then be cocked and loaded in a down- range direction. Crossbows will not be loaded in an upward pointing position. 

It is the shooters responsibility to be sure that his or her crossbow is in sound working condition. Crossbow arrows or bolts must be of a diameter no less than 20/64ths of an inch, and no less that 14 inches in length. They must have no less than three vanes or feathers and employ a field or bullet point. All bolts (arrows) carried on the course must be of the same type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight. All crossbows used are to be of a manufacturer’s standard production. Crossbows will be shot from the green stake with a maximum of approximately 45 yards.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

This reply is not directed at anyone in particular. It is however, directed at everyone in general.

ELPC posted about a series of unsafe events he witnessed at a 3-D shoot this weekend.

Several board members feel that ELPC is doing nothing more than taking a cheap shot at crossbows, which I do not own or use, BTW.

Other board members feel that ELPC is merely posting this for awareness of safety concerns. Myself, and others have tried to address the safety end of it, without any luck. Why, if this is about a safe shooting environment, are those posts completely ignored?

My concern is not with the weapon, but with the unsafe actions of a few individuals. As I have stated previously, to no avail, crossbows have been welcome at the club I run for over 15 years. People using these crossbows must follow safety rules at all times. After all, a crossbow cannot cock itself. A crossbow cannot load itself. A crossbow cannot fire itself.

What I find more alarming than the unsafe acts of the 3 people involved in the original event that spurred this thread is...........why did ELPC not make sure these unsafe practices were stopped immediately?

I have asked directly before, and I will attempt to get a simple answer one more time.........

ELPC, what did YOU do to have these unsafe actions stopped?

Can we agree that there is a possibility that the 3 jokers in this story might be unsafe with verticle bows also? I surely agree that it is much more difficult to walk around with a fully drawn verticle bow, than with a crossbow. Just having one cocked is one of many ways to be unsafe.

Maybe some of you guys want firearms to be outlawed for hunting? You can walk around with them loaded.

The bottom line is this.....it ain`t the weapon! It is the person carrying it.

No more ducking the question Paul.........WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT IT?


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Paul comments are diffiantly about safety
> 
> If that continues there will be someone get shot, you dont leave loaded guns laying around  Good points and they diffiantly need to be addressed.


Dan, many have tried to address the safety issue here. ELPC has not. He has ignored any post that is not a fight about crossbows.

Safety is always priority # 1.

It ain`t the crossbow! It is the person carrying it.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Big Country said:


> Dan, many have tried to address the safety issue here. ELPC has not. He has ignored any post that is not a fight about crossbows.
> 
> Safety is always priority # 1.
> 
> It ain`t the crossbow! It is the person carrying it.


I have posted my actions at least once on this topic. Go find it and drop the personal attacks. I have not attacked anyone or anything on this subject. My comments have been strictly within the range of safety and classification issues. My points are valid and can be backed up. You have continually conducted a vain attempt to twist my words and intentions. Grow up. 

It is apparent that the questionable tactics used by several x-bow supporters to squash valid safety issues is ok here, but valid concerns about safety are closely watched and monitored.


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I have posted my actions at least once on this topic. Go find it and drop the personal attacks.


I see no personal attack here by Big Country. I think his question was legitimate.

What, specifically, in Big Country's post, was a personal attack?


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I have posted my actions at least once on this topic. Go find it and drop the personal attacks.



I read what you posted, I simply hoped that it was only a partial account.

Maybe someones grandmother can save the day next time there is a problem.


Ever hear the old saying....if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem?:wink: 

And as far as crying wolf about personal attacks..........you came on here to bash crossbows, period.

If safety was your concern, you would have done something about it.....even if it meant calling the police.

Maybe if you ask real nice, you can get me banned?


----------



## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

I have to agree with Mitch on the crossbow issues but any sportsman no matter what weapon they choose have a responsibility to that weapon and there fellow sportsman around them. I also believe that any responsible hunter who had concerns about their safety and the safety of others should have addressed the situation and not let it go and complain on a public forum at a later time. I was always taught that if your not going to be part of the solution than you just volunteered to became part of the problem.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*IBO Rules*

_Crossbows may or may not employ a magnification sight. Whether a pin type or scope type sight is used it will not employ any range finding capability. Magnification will not exceed 8x if utilized. 

Crossbows may not exceed a draw weight of 190# and shoot a bolt (arrow) at a velocity no greater than 300 fps. 

All crossbows must have a working safety. *Safety is to be kept in an on position until shooter is at stake and ready to fire. No crossbow will be cocked before shooter is at the shooting stake; it may then be cocked and loaded in a down- range direction. Crossbows will not be loaded in an upward pointing position.*

It is the shooters responsibility to be sure that his or her crossbow is in sound working condition. Crossbow arrows or bolts must be of a diameter no less than 20/64ths of an inch, and no less that 14 inches in length. They must have no less than three vanes or feathers and employ a field or bullet point. All bolts (arrows) carried on the course must be of the same type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight. All crossbows used are to be of a manufacturer’s standard production. Crossbows will be shot from the green stake with a maximum of approximately 45 yards. _

The bold type reflects the rules that were violated... I witnessed these actions as well as others. I did try to talk to these people and my words fell on deaf ears. Without physical confrontation I could do no more. They were reported to the club officials and they assured me that they would not be welcome there again. My concerns also included the club officials themselves as they did not seem to have a clear set of rules between them. 

If you do not think this was a serious matter, than you really need to re-assess your priorities.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

As posted in my original thread that was closed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by olehemlock
Did you mention something to them or the people that where putting on the shoot. Gun clubs voice unsafe actions immediately. 


*Yes, and yes... The shooters themselves were quite bold about their actions, told me "they can't go off" and then very blatantly cocked their x-bows and went on their very unsafe way...

When I made it back to the clubhouse I reported the group to the people in charge. They told me that they also had trouble with this group and they would not be allowed to shoot there again.

And… to the person that chalked this up to these people just being new... Give me a break. I can see no wisdom in turning a bunch of untrained x-bow shooters onto a 3d course of unsuspecting people. I believe that it is up to the clubs to make sure that adequate safety rules are in place... and enforced. Now, for those of you that thing this is a x-bow bashing it is not. X-bows, as well as many other shooting devices, have their own place (we may debate where that place is some other time)... My point is to draw concern about safety rules and the lack of them being in place... the IBO has developed a good set of x-bow safety rules and these should be handed out to every x-bow shooter and enforced at any club that allows x-bows at their shoots. Unfortunately this has not happened to date and it is the intention of this thread to make it so…*


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I ask again, how does this post of Paul's help anything? it was put on three different forums. Its obvious to me-and most posters-that none of the miscreants are even remotely predicted to read this discussion. So the problem creators are not subject to the wisdom contained in this thread.

Now that we know the perpetrators of unsafe behaviour are not targeted, who was Paul trying to edify? was he trying to tell us xbow archers that we shouldn't engage in unsafe acts even though no one has EVER accused any of us of unsafe behavior? was he trying to make compound archers think that crossbow archers in GENERAL can't be trusted? That CERTAINLY is how I read his post and how most of us who support xbows read it because he used words like "my worst fears" etc.

If one of you people who support Paul can tell me a DIFFERENT purpose of his post, please do so


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

EPLC said:


> The bold type reflects the rules that were violated... I witnessed these actions as well as others. I did try to talk to these people and my words fell on deaf ears. Without physical confrontation I could do no more. They were reported to the club officials and they assured me that they would not be welcome there again. My concerns also included the club officials themselves as they did not seem to have a clear set of rules between them.
> 
> If you do not think this was a serious matter, than you really need to re-assess your priorities.


I absolutely think that safety is a serious issue. As I stated in the sister thread to this one in the crossbow forum yesterday, I have been in charge of a big archery club for a long, long time. Rules at clubs like the one you were at this past weekend are usually born out of necessity. I would hope that the club in question will have rules in place by their next shoot.

Unfortunately, rules alone don`t prevent problems. Kind of like the 25,000 plus gun laws our country has.:wink: 

Laws, AND common sense need to be enforced. I think that another serious issue with this unfortunate event is the fact that the club supervisors did not immediately remedy the situation when they became aware of it.

Nobody likes unpleasant confrontations, but an unpleasant discussion is much prefered over an accidental shooting!

Speaking of unpleasant, if I don`t get to the store to buy some coax to move a satelite box for my wifes superbowl party this weekend, there WILL be an unpleasant confrontation. :wink: 

In parting, I agree with your safety concerns 100% Paul. I do disagree that it is the fault of the weapon. Hopefully the club will have rules in place, and enforced at the next shoot!


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Big Country said:


> In parting, I agree with your safety concerns 100% Paul. I do disagree that it is the fault of the weapon. Hopefully the club will have rules in place, and enforced at the next shoot!


For the record, I NEVER said it was the fault of the weapon... what I did say was that the x-bow has handling and safety issues more closely related to a rifle than a bow and arrow. I think we can agree that x-bows should be handled with the same concideration you would in handling a firearm... or can we?


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> For the record, I NEVER said it was the fault of the weapon... what I did say was that the x-bow has handling and safety issues more closely related to a rifle than a bow and arrow. I think we can agree that x-bows should be handled with the same concideration you would in handling a firearm... or can we?



sure, in sporting clays -which is similar to 3d You don't load your gun til you are in the shooting box or on the shooting stake-the rules are already in place and the conduct you described violated the rules

BTW are you going to answer my and other tough questions?

what was the purpose of your posts given that we both know the chances of those miscreants reading anything here is about zero to nil


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Big Country said:


> Dan, many have tried to address the safety issue here. ELPC has not. He has ignored any post that is not a fight about crossbows.
> 
> Safety is always priority # 1.
> 
> It ain`t the crossbow! It is the person carrying it.


Actually, with the exception of your last post, many (if not all) of the x-bow champions here have done everything in their power to condemn, avoid or deny that these issues even exist.

I have been quite vocal about these very serious issues for some time and have not changed my tune. The issue I have concerns the ability to do exactly what these morons did. They cocked their x-bows and walked around with them. They left them cocked and unattended... They loaded in a vertical position. One loaded his x-bow and pointed it in an unsafe direction prior to being at the shooting stake (at least that was what I was told by the group that was put in danger)... 

And then to come here with this valid concern and be bashed personally is a real shame. I have been made the subject of ridicule for doing what is right. It is obvious to me that anyone that has the nerve to speak up about ANY issues concerning the x-bow will be the subject of insults, name calling, discrediting and anything else that this bunch of bully’s can come up with. With behavior this childish, you shouldn't be allowed to play with matches either.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I am waiting for you to answer my question paul. we all know your posts were not directed at the "morons' you complain about who violated rule after rule

what was the purpose of this?

you are not being truthful about what we have said. I just merely told you I HAVE NEVER seen people do the stuff you said happened. I find it interesting that your solution is to post it here as if the perpetrators are going to be edified by your comments.

I find it interesting you have avoided answering several questions several posters have asked you

that tells me a great deal


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim, my reasoning and purpose is plan and simple. X-bows just serve to add another layer of insanity to the already uncontrolled safety challenged individuals that are involved in club 3d archery... The clubs don't police the problems they have now and you expect them to police this? 

Since you've gone to great lengths to point out the dangers of compounds you should at least understand we do not need additional safety issues that can or will not be addressed. Let's face it, there are more than just a few knuckleheads involved in archery. If it can be done someone will do it. 

About a year ago you said that rules would take care of these problems... what rules? As pointed out here by some of your supporters it's the shooters that have to police these issues. Unfortunately, this will take some training so we are on the same page. But, tactics such as the one's you and your pals have chosen to implement only serve to cloud the reality of what needs to be done. To deny that there are serious issues than need to be addressed is irresponsible... and that is what you are doing.


----------



## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Big Country said:


> I have asked directly before, and I will attempt to get a simple answer one more time.........
> 
> No more ducking the question Paul.........WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT IT?


Read the mans posts. HE WENT TO THE RANGE OFFICALS AND REPORTED IT! 
What would you have done?


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Jim, my reasoning and purpose is plan and simple. X-bows just serve to add another layer of insanity to the already uncontrolled safety challenged individuals that are involved in club 3d archery... The clubs don't police the problems they have now and you expect them to police this?
> 
> Since you've gone to great lengths to point out the dangers of compounds you should at least understand we do not need additional safety issues that can or will not be addressed. Let's face it, there are more than just a few knuckleheads involved in archery. If it can be done someone will do it.
> 
> About a year ago you said that rules would take care of these problems... what rules? As pointed out here by some of your supporters it's the shooters that have to police these issues. Unfortunately, this will take some training so we are on the same page. But, tactics such as the one's you and your pals have chosen to implement only serve to cloud the reality of what needs to be done. To deny that there are serious issues than need to be addressed is irresponsible... and that is what you are doing.


well my club has had crossbows for several years and NO problems that I have heard of and at the ranges I either was on staff at or RAN for 10 years, I had FAR FAR more problems-in terms of numbers and per capita with compounds than crossbows

I believe you are irresponsible to post this sort of garbage which in my mind-and many others-was designed to stir up more hatred against xbow archers and to somehow justify bigotry and exclusion of crossbows

say what you want, that is the way I and many others saw it


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

N2RCHRY said:


> Read the mans original post. HE WENT TO THE RANGE OFFICALS AND REPORTED IT!
> What would you have done?



that's what I have done when I have seen irresponsible behavior on both gun and 3D ranges

I sure don't go to an archery or shooting forum and whine about the people as if they represent all shotgun shooters, pistol marksmen or compound archers


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> I am waiting for you to answer my question paul. we all know your posts were not directed at the "morons' you complain about who violated rule after rule
> 
> what was the purpose of this?
> 
> ...


I'll overlook that you've called me a liar again and get right yo your point. So here's the answer you have been waiting for: I'm concerned with the x-bow safety issues that you claim don't exist aren't being addressed at the club level in many cases. Clubs in general do not police their shoots and only react after the fact. Very little proactive thinking takes place at many clubs. The exception is gun clubs because they have to. Archery clubs are generally very loosely organized and only a small percentage of the membership takes an active role... Most can barely get enough people together to set up these shoots, let alone police them. 

Examples I have seen:

3 knuckleheads with compounds decided to shoot our 80 yard butt even though it was marked as closed... There were shooters on the 3d course behind the target. I stopped them.

The DEM agency that qualifies hunters with broadheads set up their target butt facing the 3d course where people were competing... I stopped them. It wasn't easy because "Name withheld" had told them to set up shop there. They actually gave me crap about it and later I was the AH in the eyes of some (Name withheld's buddies). I stopped them though.

Sky drawing while qualifing with broadheads... State agency now... and nobody said a word. Of course I did... 

My latest problem was the direct result of the club... in fact the whole tri-county 3d league in MA for not having proper rules in place to manage x-bows. They just chose to allow this venue without regard to the issues that may be of concern. No posting of any rules are to be seen with the exception of a reference to the IBO equipment rules in their 3d book. Of course the IBO rules aren't around for anyone to read. 

Well now you know... Now I have a question for you, although I don't expect you will answer it.

My question: Do you believe that an x-bow should generally be handled with the same care and safety concerns as a rifle?


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

EPLC said:


> I'll overlook that you've called me a liar again and get right yo your point. Here's the answer you have been waiting for: I'm concerned with the x-bow safety issues that you claim don't exist aren't being addressed at the club level in many cases. Clubs in general do not police their shoots and only react after the fact. Very little proactive thinking takes place at many clubs. The exception is gun clubs because they have to. Archery clubs are generally very loosely organized and only a small percentage of the membership takes an active role... Most can bairly get enough people together to set up these shoots, let alone police them.
> 
> Examples I have seen:
> 
> ...


You are not being truthful paul

You misrepresent what I have said and I stand by my OPINION of what the purpose of your post is and if we took a poll on both here and on the xbow forum I suspect there would be either a majority of posters, or a large minority who hold the same opinion I do.

xbows don't have near the long range of rifles so the handling is different. IN many areas where its safe to shoot a crossbow it is not to shoot a rifle. a crossbow aimed or carried loaded (like some hunters do) a few feet in front of you is generally safe-with a rifle it might not be. the rules I listed earlier are workable for all kinds of bows

in one area a crossbow is more dangerous than a rifle-a cocked but unloaded rifle can't hurt someone if the trigger is pulled with the safety off

a cocked but unloaded crossbow can hurt someone severely if the trigger is pulled


----------



## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Jim C said:


> that's what I have done when I have seen irresponsible behavior on both gun and 3D ranges
> 
> I sure don't go to an archery or shooting forum and whine about the people as if they represent all shotgun shooters, pistol marksmen or compound archers


You may call it "whining", I call it, as others see it, CONCERN for others safety.

But I'm glad you feel you can repsond for Bigcountry:wink:


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Jim C said:


> 1. You are not being truthful paul
> 
> *2. a crossbow aimed or carried loaded (like some hunters do) a few feet in front of you is generally safe-with a rifle it might not be.*


1. There you go again calling me a liar.

2. *WHAT?*


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

N2RCHRY said:


> Read the mans posts. HE WENT TO THE RANGE OFFICALS AND REPORTED IT!
> What would you have done?


N2RCHRY, I did read the mans post. In fact, I have been reading the mans posts for years. 

I knew without an answer that reporting it to range officials, and getting no satisfaction, was the extent of his actions. That is why he did not want to answer further.:wink: 

What would I have done? Well, for starters, I would have politely explained to the 3 guys being unsafe just why they should not do what they were doing. I honestly cannot imagine it going beyond that.

If it did.......at my club, I would have escorted them to the parking lot immediately for their last trip down the driveway.

At another club......I would have gotten instant action from the range officials at whichever club it was.

It is well and good to take sides as you see it in a debate like this.......but being relatively new here, you do not have the advantage of knowing the real reason behind the telling of this story.

Anyway, that is what I would have done. I fact, that is exactly what I have done, more than once. Only difference, I have yet to encounter all that many folks with crossbows at 3-D shoots, the few that I have had the misfortune to escort out have all had verticle bows of one type or the other.

I guess some people take care of problems, while others run for help.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*So Jim C*

By your post here.

You would intenially walked in front of loaded crosbow and have no thoughts of going off?

Appartly safety doesnt matter to you. 

Everyone here understands the post. Its unsafe and he certianly brought it to everyone attention. Ill walk off the range if I see these violations being done.

Maybe he just saved a life by bringing and posted this thread. But Jim C you would never look at that way.


----------



## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Big Country said:


> N2RCHRY, I did read the mans post. In fact, I have been reading the mans posts for years.
> 
> I knew without an answer that reporting it to range officials, and getting no satisfaction, was the extent of his actions. That is why he did not want to answer further.:wink:
> 
> ...


That's cool I guess, some people feel the need to be the "enforcer" for the club. Myself, I tend to let the people "running the show" do the dirty work. Now if it's "your" club, I guess that's different. You can call it "running for help" but I don't like being looked at as the guy trying to be the bad ass...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Mitch and JimC*

Paul once saw a picture of me shooting next to my house.

He pointed out the safety concerns.

Now should I feel he doesnt like me, no I kindly told him I understaood his concerns and he was right but Im willing to take those risk.

Now one of these days I might have wished I listen to him. 

I happen to know his post all to well myself:wink:


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> By your post here.
> 
> You would intenially walked in front of loaded crosbow and have no thoughts of going off?
> 
> ...


Dan, you and I are buddys, but this is not accurate. You are allowing your dislike for crossbows to cloud your thinking.

Safety is always priority # 1. Always, regardless of the weapon being used.

Let`s just quit pussyfooting around the truth..........Paul saw an unsafe action, and was able to use this unsafe action to condemn crossbows. It is no secret how Paul feels about crossbows.

Paul is offended by the unsafe actions of these 3 jerks. I don`t blame him one bit for that.

What I have a problem with, besides the clearly obvious cheap shot at crossbows, is that Paul wants to complain about range safety, but he did little about it.

What does posting this here accomplish? Does Paul want one of us to come to his hometown area to handle these situations?

If the range officials were alerted in this case, and they were by Paul, they should have immediately remedied the situation. Telling Paul that the guys won`t be welcome back again, yet allowing them to finish their shoot in an unsafe manner, is simply unacceptable!

Paul has every right to be mad. He should be really mad at the guys who run that club. If that is the best those guys can do in a tough situation, they should sit home and watch Emmeril cook some stuff on TV.

I think I am going to buy or borrow a crossbow to sit in my living room. I want to see how long it takes for the crossbow to do something unsafe.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I dont like crossbows for hunters*

Doesnt cloud my thoughts or the fact Paul has often posted safety concerns in many post.

Not just crossbows. I been here enough to know and read most post and threads. I can prove my point if search will allow.

Paul has always been a safty guy about eveything.

I have not hidden agenda here. JimC and you both know exacatly how I feel about crossbows.

Im sure Mitch he had an agenda when he slammed me about shooting next to my house. I often think about that post when shooting there. Was a good reminder. Some guys here take safety very seriously.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

N2RCHRY said:


> That's cool I guess, some people feel the need to be the "enforcer" for the club. Myself, I tend to let the people "running the show" do the dirty work. Now if it's "your" club, I guess that's different. You can call it "running for help" but I don't like being looked at as the guy trying to be the bad ass...


I don`t consider either one of my scenarios as being a "bad ass".

At my club, it is my responsibility.

At any club within 100 miles of me....if I tell the ranger that someone is acting in an unsafe manner, my statement is not questioned, and action will be taken. That is what happens when people know you to be a forthright individual.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Dan, nobody takes safety any more serious than I do. I have no doubt that Paul is very safety oriented, and that is commendable.

However, if Paul did not have an agenda with this safety issue, he would NOT have named this thread..........

"My first 3d x-bow encounter".


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*If he had said compound exsperiance*

Many wouldnt have read it. 

Is it going to make crossbows worse. (NO) 

I read and didnt give it another thought. But you and Jim sure have made it read by most now.

I saw a safety concern and nothing else.


----------



## slinger09 (Oct 11, 2004)

Isn't it funny how JimC turns every crossbow thread into a 4 page saga. I guess if he convinces one person he is hunting with archery equipment it will be worth the effort. Keep up the good fight JimC.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Big Country and me are good friends*

Even though we dissagree sometimes. He is a great guy and I do respect and understand what he is saying. I know Mitch is passionate about archery and hunting.:wink: 

You wont find a nicer guy.

Not much on climbing trees


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Even though we dissagree sometimes. He is a great guy and I do respect and understand what he is saying. I know Mitch is passionate about archery and hunting.:wink:
> 
> You wont find a nicer guy.
> 
> Not much on climbing trees



I can climb them just fine Dan. I just can`t stay in `em very long!:embara:


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Wow*

I just looked in the crossbow section for the first time. 

Man I thought AT was open minded. Dont say nothing anti crossbow there for sure. Saw more locked threads than ever 

I dont think Im allowed back in

Paul post away us 3ders love to argue


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Was going to post a shotgun with arrow in it*

Call it my crossbow:tongue: To each his own.

Dont see many crossbows here in Okla. on the 3d ranges. Honestly dont think we allow it here.

But we are behind times and thats the way we like it


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> By your post here.
> 
> You would intenially walked in front of loaded crosbow and have no thoughts of going off?
> 
> ...



LOL-misreading what I said again and lying about my concern for safety. If I am alone in the woods stalking deer (which I DO NOT DO BTW) a bolt that dishcarges 3 feet in front of me is not dangerous to ME. A HIGH POWERED RIFLE BULLET that strikes hard ground or a rock three feet in front of me IS


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Big Country said:


> Dan, nobody takes safety any more serious than I do. I have no doubt that Paul is very safety oriented, and that is commendable.
> 
> However, if Paul did not have an agenda with this safety issue, he would NOT have named this thread..........
> 
> "My first 3d x-bow encounter".



AND THAT FOLKS is the absolute truth


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Dan, you and I are buddys, but this is not accurate. You are allowing your dislike for crossbows to cloud your thinking.


and you passion for crossbows is not clouding yours and jim's thinking either? interesting


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Arrow cant come back and hit you*



Jim C said:


> LOL-misreading what I said again and lying about my concern for safety. If I am alone in the woods stalking deer (which I DO NOT DO BTW) a bolt that dishcarges 3 feet in front of me is not dangerous to ME. A HIGH POWERED RIFLE BULLET that strikes hard ground or a rock three feet in front of me IS


Wow thats news to me, I have seen some crazy thing with arrow.:wink: 
Thats the truth.


----------

