# U.S. Archer's individual matches



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, unfortunately for *Miranda*, she ran into a hot archer in Pia Lionetti of Italy, so her Olympic events are complete. However, she did win her first match, so she has gained some experience that hopefully she will be able to take into Rio in 2016. Now it's time for her to enjoy the rest of her time in London, and cheer on her teammates!

*Jenny* will shoot tomorrow - 7/31 - at 4:44 a.m. Central time

*Khatuna* shoots Wed., 8/1 - at 6:15 a.m. Central time 


As for the men...

*Jacob* shoots Tuesday - 7/31 - at 3:13 Central

*Brady* shoots Wed. - 8/1 - at 9:13 Central

*Jake* shoots Wed. - 8/1 - at 10:31 Central

Good news is that none of our archers would meet until at least the quarterfinals.

Go USA!


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Usa usa usa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bardman (Oct 18, 2006)

Where is the archery being shown? On Internet? Cause NBC sure isnt showing squat


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Right now, I'm getting updates through the world archery federation site - www.archery.org

It's the most dependable, quickly updated site.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So, two interesting matches just took place...

Crispin Duenas - a great archer from Canada and even better color commentator for ArcheryTV (on line) just got bumped by the 57th ranked archer. Crispin ranked 8th. That is shocking, since Crispin was the highest ranked archer in his bracket of 8. So sorry to see that. He's such a great guy.

Another great matchup I would have loved to have seen in person was Larry Godfrey - local hometown London boy - vs. Juan Rene Serrano of Mexico. Both made their mark in Athens by surprising many folks with their high finishes. Larry finished 4th in Athens. Serrano finished very high (don't recall where exactly) in China. Unfortunately, they met in the round of 16, with Godfrey winning 6-2. Thing is, that in every set he won, Larry only won that set by one point! That was a close match. Serrano is a great archer. Heck, they both are! I'm sure the crowd went nuts when Godfrey knocked off Serrano!

John


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## osalinas (Nov 11, 2010)

Juan René ended 4th in Beijing.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I watched Crispin's match - his shooting didn't seem very sharp compared to how he usually is. Not sure if he couldn't solve the swirling wind, or was just a bit 'off' on the day.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Godfrey beat Serrano who beat out Galliazo in another big upset! Way to go Larry!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, certainly! Way to go Larry! He surprised us all in Athens. I guess it's no surprise this time around, right!?!

It would be great to see him medal in London.

John


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

If you have a tablet or smart phone you can watch archery live with the NBC Olympics app. Not sure about the Internet as I haven't tried.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> So, two interesting matches just took place...
> 
> Crispin Duenas - a great archer from Canada and even better color commentator for ArcheryTV (on line) just got bumped by the 57th ranked archer. Crispin ranked 8th. That is shocking, since Crispin was the highest ranked archer in his bracket of 8. So sorry to see that. He's such a great guy.
> 
> ...


I thought Serrano took out Vic after Vic took out the TOp Korean in the 8ths. Serrano was the top qualifier in China I believe and finished fourth


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

http://www.archery.org/EventResults/ResultSummary.aspx?e=298


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Jacob lost 6-2 and I just watched Jenny win in a shootoff. Now for her to win in the 2nd round.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

The London Olympic crew is not without a sense of humor. The Indian shooter (against Nichols) only needed to shoot a 9 to win. Held too long, started wiggling and shot a 6. The PA system starts playing David Bowie's "Under Pressure" song...

Congrats, Jennifer...good luck in the next round!!!


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Jenny was ahead 3-1, but ended up losing in the 2nd round 6-4. Better luck tomorrow Brady, Jake and Khatuna.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

She shot well but the other archer shot better. Three more to go...good luck USA!!!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well dang. I had Jacob as my dark horse pick to go deep into these brackets...

Jenny shot well. But those 25's! Must be some crazy weird winds or something. Jenny just doesn't do that very often. One thing about her, if she's shooting poor arrows, it's the conditions. It's certainly not her nerves.

John


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I was watching this morning and noticed that Chinese archer Yu Xing lost to Malaysian archer Khairul Mohomad in a shootoff even though Xing beat him by two in the actual arrow scores. I'm going to take a guess that Xing isn't a fan of the new scoring. I haven't watched very many matches. Has this happened often?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Of the 15 or so matches I've watched, 3 times the archer with the lower overall point total has won the match.

12-arrow scoring favors consistency; the 'set system' favors the archer who can clump high numbers together, even if they have a hanger every once in a while. Every scoring method favors something over some other thing. I agree with John (after watching for a few days) that the set system provides more drama and excitement.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Kinda like the popular vote vs the electoral college here in the states...

...yes, it doesn't seem fair but I guess they did it to take away most of the effects of a bad arrow. Seems to be working.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just counting up points is like watching paint dry. And it was worse when we shot 18 arrow matches. No chance for a comeback to speak of, and the whole crowd knew who was going to win by about the 10th arrow usually.

This is a much easier system for the audience to follow and understand.

Sets have been used in Tennis forever. It's because they are more exciting to watch and to play. It's really about "closing" the deal. Sure, you can get there, but can you finish? That's what we all want to know.

John


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Well dang. I had Jacob as my dark horse pick to go deep into these brackets...
> 
> Jenny shot well. But those 25's! Must be some crazy weird winds or something. Jenny just doesn't do that very often. One thing about her, if she's shooting poor arrows, it's the conditions. It's certainly not her nerves.
> 
> John


Yesterday they said the wind was swirling in the venue. Some of the slo-mo video shows the arrows dancing quite a bit (not all the archers paradox)...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dang swirling winds... 

We had this in spades in Athens. That stadium was SO difficult to shoot in when the wind was blowing.  They are much more sheltered on the line in London, but I guess they are still getting the swirling affect. Something really needs to be done about this. It's too unpredictable. Seeing archers like IM of Korea shoot 25's? He never shoots 25's. That's just a function of the venue, I'm quite certain. 

It's one thing to have an open field and be able to compensate for a consistent wind, but the swirling in the stadium is just impossible to figure out. When you combine that with the short clock for matchplay, it really comes down to luck at that point - who is going to get "good wind" when it's their turn to shoot? 

But the set system does make it more fair, I think. You can get a set with bad wind and still recover.

John


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

I think that the set system is a good idea because of the wind problem. It is not the fault of the archer if a wind gust blows the arrow off target. The set system doesn't allow the weather to knock an archer out, even if he/she is shooting 10s most of the time.

If I remember correctly, Jenny also lost the point count in the first match that she won in the shootoff.

In another type of shooting, the USA won the gold in both the women's and men's skeet. I used to shoot a lot many years ago, so I was especially interested in both of those.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Jennifer's opponent in the first round had the match won...right up to the last arrow. Watching the clock, holding too long, started to shake and shot that 6. Just as the buzzer went off I believe. I think she was still shaken during the shootoff but that is just my observation.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I've watched all the World Cup events over the years seeing most of the competing archers of the Olympics. Is it me or can you outright see the pressure they're under to do well? Shot cycles are longer, forms do not look as crisp. Even take Brady for example, I think he looks uncomfortable during the team rounds. Crispin certainly looked out of sorts as well. Man, I couldn't imagine the pressure those athletes are under!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"Even take Brady for example, I think he looks uncomfortable during the team rounds."_

I agree - sooooo much pressure. I also thought Brady's shooting looked just a smidge 'tight' during the team rounds. Of course, for him "being a smidge tight" means shooting nines instead of tens (and most of those nines missing the 10ring by 1/4" or less). And it might not have been 'being a smidge tight' at all - it could easily just be me being a goofball with an overactive imagination.

I felt bad for Jacob, running into that buzzsaw from Norway this morning (last 6 arrows 5 tens and 1 nine? yeeesh). He's such a fine young man, I was desperately rooting for him to medal.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The format has to be a big part of the stress. I thought the time limit on the team rounds was too short resulting in shots that were not indicative of the true talent of the archers.

With H2H, imagine scoring a 29 at 70m and still loosing. Scores not being carried seems rather cut-throat too. In some competitions it seems to be the better archer doesn't get to progress.

I do realise though that all archers are in the same boat. The Olympics is a very different game to a FITA.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

In those situations, you have one of two choices to make. Embrace it, or endure it. I've always found that truly embracing the moment is the best approach. 

And frankly, when I shoot balloons at 70M for grade school kids, I feel more pressure to perform than I did in the Olympic stadium. Which is why shooting demonstrations in front of a live audience is such good mental training.

In fact, I would say that if an individual couldn't see themselves actually looking forward to an opportunity to shoot a demonstration in front of a live audience of schoolkids, they have some work to do on their mental game... It's a perfect litmus test for whether they are ready for the spotlight, or not.

John


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

The pressure must be a lot tougher on the archers and shooters then it is on things like swimming and track. There is so much time to get nervous between shots then there is in a go all out event. The stress is probably the same before the event, but not during.


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## Mac Pointer (Mar 30, 2005)

I've been away for quite some time. Wow.

I'm completely aggravated at trying to stream the archery replays from CNBC. BLAH


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## indyarcher (Jan 6, 2003)

You can see every arrow from every archer at nbc.com/olympics. You can see it live or you can see the replay.


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## Mac Pointer (Mar 30, 2005)

indyarcher said:


> You can see every arrow from every archer at nbc.com/olympics. You can see it live or you can see the replay.


Thanks. The CNBC site was trying to log me in using my cable TV provider. It never worked.


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## bows'n'roses (Jun 5, 2007)

I can't see it either because we don't subscribe to MSNBC. Bummer!


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

There is a technical way to get around it, http://lifehacker.com/5930437/how-a...ficial-olympics-coverage-and-overcome-nbcfail

Granted, this isn't necessarily the most ethical way to get BBC's live streams.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> And frankly, when I shoot balloons at 70M for grade school kids, I feel more pressure to perform than I did in the Olympic stadium.


That really surprised me!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I've seen John do this. And it's worse than he makes out - there are balloons of 4 different colors tied to the target butt, and he let's the kids choose the color order in which he has to pop them. Lotta pressure!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Matt Z said:


> That really surprised me!


It all depends on who you feel it's more important to impress, I guess 

Kids flat out don't understand when an Olympian misses. We're not allowed to miss in their minds. Adults, well, they kinda get how hard it really is...

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> It all depends on who you feel it's more important to impress, I guess
> 
> Kids flat out don't understand when an Olympian misses. We're not allowed to miss in their minds. Adults, well, they kinda get how hard it really is...
> 
> John


Not all adults, parents, get it. That is why I love parents night where the parents get to shoot the club bows and the kids get to "coach"


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Excellent match for Khatuna...10 on the last arrow to advance...


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Khatuna Lorig has done well this morning. Solid shooting


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

She always seems to shoot better in individual matchplay. I'm sure her teammates can't help but wonder where those arrows were in the team event...

But that is archery. Some days you're hot, some days you're not. Single elimination matchplay is very unforgiving.

I'm sad for Jenny, as I fully expect this to be her last Olympic games. Her best opportunity for an Olympic medal was with that women's team, I think.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DWAA Archer said:


> Khatuna Lorig has done well this morning. Solid shooting


Actually, I just did the math and her average is still hovering perilously around 69 points per 8 arrows throug the first two matches. Just a fraction of a point above her team score. So, she's going to need to pick it up if she wants to advance. Her 4th place ranking has allowed her to shoot against very low ranked archers so far.

Meanwhile, Miranda shot significantly better scores and yet still got knocked out in the 2nd round. 

Oh, you just gotta love single elimination matchplay...


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## bows'n'roses (Jun 5, 2007)

Harrison, thank you for the tip. I appreciate it.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Man, Brady is shooting with a ridiculously determined look on his face! Man on a mission!


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## ManyHats (Jun 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> She always seems to shoot better in individual matchplay. I'm sure her teammates can't help but wonder where those arrows were in the team event...
> 
> But that is archery. Some days you're hot, some days you're not. Single elimination matchplay is very unforgiving.
> 
> ...


Team match against China: Jenny shot a 73, Khatuna shot a 71, and Miranda shot a 69


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Matt Z said:


> Man, Brady is shooting with a ridiculously determined look on his face! Man on a mission!


Brady Just got crushed in the second round by Taylor Worth of Australia 7-1

Brady went 29 and the next three rounds were all under 27


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Man, what a disappointment. Fight all morning to get on NBCs website (too busy) only to see Brady fall to the Aussie. Not a good day...hope Jake and Khatuna do better...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Team match against China: Jenny shot a 73, Khatuna shot a 71, and Miranda shot a 69


If you're going to register just to make that one anonymous post, at least get the facts right.

http://www.archery.org/livescores/default.aspx?e=446


Too bad about Brady. Dang. Well, Jake and Khatua are capable of beating anyone, so there is still hope!

John


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

The Korean women are looking human today - great opportunity for another country to step in.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Wow what a great match between ESP and KOR. Rock solid for KOR in the shoot off. Van Halen in the background is pretty cool too!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wish I could watch it. I'm sure the crowd is going nuts for Simon Terry right now!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I was surprised to see Korea's Oh shooting a Hoyt HPX.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Following the $ Larry. There's no telling what they paid to get him.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Simon looked very solid shot a 30 on one end.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good for Simon! Score one for the old guys... 

Now, go Jake, go!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Jakes up now.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Go Simon - he's got more gray hair than I do!


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## ManyHats (Jun 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> If you're going to register just to make that one anonymous post, at least get the facts right.
> 
> http://www.archery.org/livescores/default.aspx?e=446
> 
> ...


Miranda 71, Khatuna 69, Jenny 73 (and all her arrows in the gold!)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ManyHats said:


> Miranda 71, Khatuna 69, Jenny 73 (and all her arrows in the gold!)


Yea, I know. 

Jake is shooting against the youngest archer on the field. 15 years old! Man that kid can shoot!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jake is averaging 28's. Good shooting man.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dang, a 6 !?! Come on Jake!


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## Bamacrazy (Dec 20, 2005)

Are all rounds being shot at 70m?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes. Jake just shot a 4 when 9 would have won it for him. 

Wishing him much luck on the shoot off!!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Yes. Jake just shot a 4 when 9 would have won it for him.
> 
> Wishing him much luck on the shoot off!!!



A four? Wow-I just saw that


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jake shoots a 7 in the shoot off. OMG. My heart goes out to the young man. Been there, done that. It smarts.

John


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Jake goes down in the shootoff. Shot excellent first 2 ends, then a tie, then fell appart. Announcers did say wind was very tough. I believe that is it for the men. Rough day.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You don't mind losing to a great effort, but boy do you hate to give one away like that...


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## TwentySix (Feb 25, 2011)

With Jake and Brady out, is that all our US men or do we have someone else?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

All the men are out....Khatuna is the only American left....


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Looks like we gave 2 away.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

On the flipside, the 15 year-old from Moldova just had the moment of his life!

Yup, just like in China, we're counting on Khatuna now...

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

15 years old? Wow. He was as smooth and cool as a cucumber.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

That wind is really playing havoc on the field....the open space in the last 20-30m must just be a wind tunnel!


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Damn, too disappointed to post much. Up 2, tied 3rd, loose 2, loose the tie breaker...not good...hope Khatuna can go a little farther...


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I must say the format is very exciting - may not get the best archer to the podium, but it is great for the spectators.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I was betting on Jake to really go far in this....pressure to shoot must be incredible....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

television revenues are more important than getting the best archer on the podium


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

American men looked overbowed to me. If their timing and pace was perfect, then no worries. But if they held just a split-second beyond perfect pace, all three of them visibly struggled.

Did anyone else see that (or at least think they saw it)?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

lksseven said:


> American men looked overbowed to me. If their timing and pace was perfect, then no worries. But if they held just a split-second beyond perfect pace, all three of them visibly struggled.
> 
> Did anyone else see that (or at least think they saw it)?



I thought that as well....you could tell well before the release whether it was going to be a good score or not....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> television revenues are more important than getting the best archer on the podium


Well, that may be true, but it depends on what one means by "best." 

If we're looking for the most accurate, proficient archer, then we found him and her on day 1. 

If we're looking for an athlete who can handle tremendous pressure and still perform, then we're still on track...

It really just depends on what kind of archer you want to crown as champion.

Yes, you can surely blame part of it on the wind, but I can tell you that those archer's bodies are MUCH more sheltered than we were in Athens, so they can at least stand steady and shoot a decent shot. I fully admit that the "wind tunnel" affect looks dicey, but I'd rather stand still and aim off than get blown around and hope.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

lksseven said:


> American men looked overbowed to me. If their timing and pace was perfect, then no worries. But if they held just a split-second beyond perfect pace, all three of them visibly struggled.
> 
> Did anyone else see that (or at least think they saw it)?


Pressure. It changes everything.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think the television exposure is great - showing a shooting sport in a positive manor, wow, what a concept.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I want to see the most proficient archer awarded the gold....the sport is archery, not defusing time bombs...

This is entirely designed for the TV audience....


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"pressure changes everything"

I agree, tremendous pressure. But the pressure, like rain and wind, exists for the other archer, too. I was just trying to, from the eye of a 'non expert', compare the Americans' "hold and expansion" with some of the other archers from around the world, and it seemed to me that, by comparison, the Americans were working harder (and some of the time, then, less smooth) getting through the clicker than were their opponents, and as a result caught some flyers when they were unable to 'muscle/will the shot' with less than perfect pace.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I want to see the most proficient archer awarded the gold....the sport is archery, not defusing time bombs...
> 
> This is entirely designed for the TV audience....


Sport is all about intense moments when athletes rise up and triumph. It's the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Just because the people we wanted to win didn't win, doesn't mean this was bad for our sport. It has been exciting to watch. I admit, for me, it is more fun to watch other counties compete against each other. No attachment. 

If Brady or Jake had taken it all the way it would have been the most exciting thing we would have ever seen. It will be that way for the archery fans of some other country now. Congratulations to them.

Gary


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

Going into today, Jake and Simon Terry were my favorites. It's only fair to say I'm a new Dan Olaru fan now. He's earned it.

-T


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

gairsz said:


> Sport is all about intense moments when athletes rise up and triumph. It's the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Just because the people we wanted to win didn't win, doesn't mean this was bad for our sport. It has been exciting to watch. I admit, for me, it is more fun to watch other counties compete against each other. No attachment.
> 
> If Brady or Jake had taken it all the way it would have been the most exciting thing we would have ever seen. It will be that way for the archery fans of some other country now. Congratulations to them.
> 
> Gary



Gary,

Does this system really produce the best archers or the luckiest archers? I think I prefer more of the round robin style of the trials to the one and done here...

With what we have now, do we really need a ranking round? Seems we could seed them alphabetically and let the last one standing win....


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I agree that this format doesn't really 'need' the ranking round, at all. Like Scott said, line'em up alphabetically, or pull names out of a hat to populate the brackets. If you're lucky, you lose to the Olympic champion in his last match - if you're not lucky, you lose to him in his first match.

Not complaining about this format. And it certainly IS fun to watch as a competition. But as a pair of pants, it certainly isn't the same fabric/material as 'shooting a lot of arrows and seeing who scores the highest total'. Not saying it's worse or better, just not the same.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Agreed....now as a shooter who will always be the underdog....the set system certainly gives me the best chance of beating someone!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It will be that way for the archery fans of some other country now. Congratulations to them.


Well said Gary.

Scott, your question about the purpose of the ranking round is not without merit, considering this format. 

If the quest is to find the most accurate archer, period, then as I said, we've already done that on day 1. Conditions were near perfect and at least one world record was set that day. One which may never be broken by anyone but Im himself. 

But many of us - myself included - love to see SPORT, which includes pressure and performance under varying conditions. This is why I string up my bow, because at any given moment in a format such as this, I can beat a Jake Kaminski or Brady Ellison even though they will almost always shoot higher ranking scores than I will. And the set system really allows for come-from-behind victories which I think is all a part of the spectacle of sport.

We're not awarding performance contracts for electronic engineering here. Keep in mind, this is entertainment. Sport, in it's purest form is one of the oldest and finest forms of entertainment we have. And it's entertainment with value, because it teaches life lessons and fitness at the same time. So, I say, this is a great event. Just awarding medals to the highest point totals after a couple of days of shooting is not entertainment, and just as it was back in Darrell's day, the event is virtually over even before it begins.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Gary,
> 
> Does this system really produce the best archers or the luckiest archers? I think I prefer more of the round robin style of the trials to the one and done here...
> 
> With what we have now, do we really need a ranking round? Seems we could seed them alphabetically and let the last one standing win....


I doesn't really matter. If you want the best archers to win, then the ranking round proved that. The elimination round is a crap shoot. Anyone can win at any given time. If you go back to just the ranking round, then archery is just too boring to watch, and will ultimately be eliminated from the Olympic games like many other shooting sports.

Some people watch NASCAR for the crashes, and some people will watch archery to see someone choke, but at lease they are watching.

Top seeded tennis players get beat all the time, but you don't hear the tennis community screaming to change the system every time it happens.

The more exciting it is to watch the better it is for the sport and athlete.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So, back to our U.S. Archers...

Khatuna has a tough match ahead of her. Ms. Cheng of China has averaged 26.55 points per 3-arrow end, while Khatuna has averaged 26.125 so far. That's a 1.5 point advantage over 9 arrows which in this sport is significant. Khatuna has her work cut out for her, but just like Vic used to do, she always manages to just get by with a win when she needs to...

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Perhaps we need some medals awarded for the ranking round?

As a spectator, I love this format! Exciting and it often goes to the last arrow!

It may be better for the sport, but not necessarily for the athlete. If this format is the best for determining the best archer, I would expect that those that are ranked the highest in the world would be in it at the end. Take swimming for example...the favorites end up in the finals because they truly are the best, not because they caught the best current...

Easiest way to solve this is to move it indoors...Then it is archer vs. archer! Either system would suit me fine then!

SB


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

But, if you're comparing Archery match play to tennis match play, it still doesn't measure up. They play several sets and you have to win by 2 sets (the reason that match last year went for a few days). Archery, it's one down and out. If they want to do it this way, why not use double eliminations? Only draw back is WAY too long to compete in this format with one match at a time.

Also, when is the archery community going to buck up and make a stand for a tournament friendly venue? What would be wrong with adding a couple 10' tall walls to fill out the space to the targets? I was watching rowing here in the hotel, and they were talking about having extra lanes so they could make the competition "fair" by adjusting for sheltered areas of the race area (shift the competition left/right by a few lanes to even out the lanes).


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

When does the "shoot a bunch of arrows" approach arrive at a winner? 1? 30? 72? 144? 

The game is defined beforehand. Shoot the game and and the better archer (that day, that round) will be the winner. Upsets are going to happen. should the game be legislated to try and avoid it? If that's the case, maybe consider changing The World Series to just 1 long 63 inning game? Or the NBA Finals to a 330'ish minute game. Is that what would ultimately determine the better team?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

The difference as I see it is the external factors of wind and lighting....it is just not the same for everyone!

Just have a venue where we can honestly say that each archer had an equal chance....The wind in Texas at the Doinker Shootout seemed more consistent that this!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I agree, the single elimination is quite punitive. Everything is being cooked in the crucible of "what's best for TV?" Maybe overall that's truly the most important question, I don't know. But, if so, then so be it.

As a participant, I like both the ranking and the Olympic rounds. Actually, I 'like' the Olympic round; I _love_ the ranking round. I'd hate to see it eventually go away.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Has any of you seen fencing. Every freaking point athletes are screaming and pumping their arms. First to 15 wins or go home. Very exciting.

Gary


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Sounds like there needs to be an equivalent to the golf world; both a stroke play and match play champion.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> But, if you're comparing Archery match play to tennis match play, it still doesn't measure up. They play several sets and you have to win by 2 sets (the reason that match last year went for a few days). Archery, it's one down and out. If they want to do it this way, why not use double eliminations? Only draw back is WAY too long to compete in this format with one match at a time.
> 
> Also, when is the archery community going to buck up and make a stand for a tournament friendly venue? What would be wrong with adding a couple 10' tall walls to fill out the space to the targets? I was watching rowing here in the hotel, and they were talking about having extra lanes so they could make the competition "fair" by adjusting for sheltered areas of the race area (shift the competition left/right by a few lanes to even out the lanes).


What are you saying? Was the competition not fair? I'm confused.

Gary


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## TwentySix (Feb 25, 2011)

My online feed cut off. Is it over for today? When will the next match be?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

gairsz said:


> Has any of you seen fencing. Every freaking point athletes are screaming and pumping their arms. First to 15 wins or go home. Very exciting.
> 
> Gary



That is completely different....no external factors, one fencer versus the other! Same fencing area for both!

It's the archer versus the target and the weather. Nothing the archer can do will have a direct effect on the other archer! When the weather is inconsistent and you only have a limited amount of time to make your shot, then it is just not the same for both sides!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

TwentySix said:


> My online feed cut off. Is it over for today? When will the next match be?


Over for today! Starting again tomorrow!


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

7 of the top 10 archers as ranked from the ranking round are still in it, including all of the top 5. That's as good as can be expected from any sport. Seems to me the best archers in the world will still be competing for a medal.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

It is amazing to me that Vic was so consistent in this otherwise inconsistent format. In three Olympics, he got 2nd, and then in the top 8 in the other two. I wonder how many other shooters have 3 top tens with this format?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"If that's the case, maybe consider changing The World Series to just 1 long 63 inning game? Or the NBA Finals to a 330'ish minute game. Is that what would ultimately determine the better team?"

I think the different natures of different sports require a different 'type' of format to determine 'the best' - one size doesn't fit all. 

By the way, Baseball used to be a 162 game season for each of two leagues ("play a bunch of games over a long period of time and see who wins the most"), and then the yearly winner of each league meeting in the World Series. THAT was, imo, a perfect format that best found a champion for Baseball as a 'life metaphor'. 

The god of TV is what eventually changes the formats of all these sports and how its champion shall be defined. Is present-day Baseball, with all of its zillion playoffs and wild cards, more fun to watch 'ON TV'? No doubt. Is it a better format to determine a champion that - as opposed to how it was in the Fifties and Sixties - reflects the essential nature of Baseball? Not in my opinion. 

But that's way off topic ..... Go K. Lorig! And Terry Simon!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

How long have they been using the set format?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

gairsz said:


> What are you saying? Was the competition not fair? I'm confused.
> 
> Gary


Nope, not saying that, but how many times have we heard of poor shooting conditions and venues? Why can't we have a tournament that is consistant? There were winds going right, blowing arrows left.....sometimes impossible to read. In Athens, the wind was rediculous apparently (according to a few I've heard). And fields do have favorite lanes at times (not sure about here though). If other sports take their competition field so seriously, what would be wrong with some standards in archery? Readable and "within reason" shouldn't be too much to ask. It certainly wouldn't take from the format.


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## Pat_from_PA (Dec 18, 2002)

alright now that the guys are out...
*G**O **P**O**L**A**N**D**!*


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

lksseven said:


> American men looked overbowed to me. If their timing and pace was perfect, then no worries. But if they held just a split-second beyond perfect pace, all three of them visibly struggled.
> 
> Did anyone else see that (or at least think they saw it)?


I agree. With what I saw all of the American archers held too long, almost as if they were "willing" the arrow go to its intended target instead of shooting the arrow on autopilot. They didn't seem like they were comfortable shooting. To me, all the arrows that were 10's and 9's came very easily with almost no effort. But hang on too long and fight it they were all over...7's, 6's, a 4...


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Those may have been the shots where the wind flags were all pointing different directions........


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

centershot said:


> Jake goes down in the shootoff. Shot excellent first 2 ends, then a tie, then fell appart. Announcers did say wind was very tough. I believe that is it for the men. Rough day.


Darn it. I really thought that he would do well. I think that he should have to wear that heavy silver medal from the team competition on the way home as penance


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Huntmaster said:


> Nope, not saying that, but how many times have we heard of poor shooting conditions and venues? Why can't we have a tournament that is consistant? There were winds going right, blowing arrows left.....sometimes impossible to read. In Athens, the wind was rediculous apparently (according to a few I've heard). And fields do have favorite lanes at times (not sure about here though). If other sports take their competition field so seriously, what would be wrong with some standards in archery? Readable and "within reason" shouldn't be too much to ask. It certainly wouldn't take from the format.


All we're trying to do is pick a winner, not find the best archer. Like the world cup in soccer there's going to be a certain randomness in who wins. I think that makes the game more fun and more exciting to watch.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Centershot,

"Those may have been the shots where the wind flags were all pointing different directions........"

I agree. But that would seem to point out the downside of being bowed so heavy that you require perfect timing/pace to get off the shot ... if the external conditions (wind) screws up your perfect pace, then you don't have enough 'controlled muscle' in reserve to be able to regain your point of aim and then get a clean/controlled expansion/release.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

I have watched a lot of video of our archers shooting the RX and the HPX riser.In my opinion,,when you shoot a bad shoot with the HPX it is a real bad shot.I always thought Brady shoot his RX better.I know the weather and pressure of the match seems to be affecting everyone that is shooting.There also seems to be alot of 6 vs 7 sort of stuff going on.Seemed like if a person only needed a seven or an eight to win,,,that is what they shot instead of a good 9 or 10.Doesn't look like to me that having more speed has worked real well for some.I am hoping that Khatuna Loring can hold it together and bring us home another medal.Mental toughness seems to be the important part of this game and I saw that in the Koreans,Worth,Ruban and Godfrey and for the gals,,,of course the two Korean women,Khatuna,and the two gals from Mexico,,,of course Schuh and Lionetti,,,,looking forward to the next matches,,,it seems to me when you get to this level,,,every arrow is sudden death and watching on wide screen HD TV is great and the people cheering each 10 is wonderful.And Rick McKinney is wonderful to listen to,,,he should be coaching more of our archers,,,he really understands the mental thing....


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

lksseven said:


> Centershot,
> 
> "Those may have been the shots where the wind flags were all pointing different directions........"
> 
> I agree. But that would seem to point out the downside of being bowed so heavy that you require perfect timing/pace to get off the shot ... if the external conditions (wind) screws up your perfect pace, then you don't have enough 'controlled muscle' in reserve to be able to regain your point of aim and then get a clean/controlled expansion/release.


Interesting thought. I believe just last week or so, someone was commenting that the short 3-arrow ends and the relatively short set system might be contributing to the tendancy to higher draw weights in exchange for snappier releases and more downrange energy because fatigue isn't as much of a factor. Perhaps there's another side of that coin, and you just pointed it out...


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

centershot said:


> Those may have been the shots where the wind flags were all pointing different directions........


The wind socks were less than 10M in front of the targets, and yes, they were pointing away from each other < > or towards each other > < almost all the time. TOTALLY useless. As I was reading the wind, when they agreed, aim off....but that was even wrong from what I could tell.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Sounds like the very definition of a crap shoot!


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Actually, I just did the math and her average is still hovering perilously around 69 points per 8 arrows through the first two matches. Just a fraction of a point above her team score. So, she's going to need to pick it up if she wants to advance. Her 4th place ranking has allowed her to shoot against very low ranked archers so far.
> 
> Meanwhile, Miranda shot significantly better scores and yet still got knocked out in the 2nd round.
> 
> Oh, you just gotta love single elimination matchplay...


John I'm telling you on that field a win is a win regardless of score. And to win in those conditions is with solid shooting.

The wind is deciding who wins at the moment. its gusting so one end both archers shoot in the calm, then wind picks up one archer gets a bit of wind and the second gets the full force its getting that strong it moves the cameras around even the people in the commentary box have been affected by it. A lot of post have said about the pressure of the competition it's not that its the wind and trying to hold until it drops, hence everyone has the shakes. Apart from the Koreans who my coach saw one hold full draw for 10 mins with a 45# bow during a coaching seminar in the UK.

I think the only archers affected by pressure are the lucky dozen that got in on a wild card and don't have access to million dollar training facilities. 

All the archers that attended the test event new about the wind but so far no one has managed to mitigate it with running hi poundage or blade stabilisers. 
The people I watch to shoot well in the wind are hi scoring compound archers now those boys have to be planted. You know they are good when it's blowing a gale and the sprit level in the sight ring does not move


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hey, been there done that one. I don't think any venue has seen the crazy winds we had in Athens. I shot 15 points below my 18-arrow average in matchplay, and still managed to finish ahead of Butch, Simon Fairweather, and some other truly great archers! And some of the women were shooting 1's and missing the entire bale completely! Heck, I shot a 1 with what I felt like was a pretty darn good shot. Frank Thomas and I just kinda laughed about it because I shot the arrow well, but a gust hit me just as I was releasing, and blew my sight clean across the target. I was actually happy the arrow just hit the bale! When the dang wind would stop, I shot 9's and 10's. So yea, I get it. 

I agree with Scott in that if measures can be taken in other sports to guard against the weather, they can and should be in archery too. A 20' high wall all the way to the target is not asking too much. In the case of this venue, they just needed to guard the final 30M to the targets. The bleachers pretty much did the rest. 

The fans want to see performance under pressure, not luck. The immense pressure of the situation will create enough unexplained and surprising results. We don't need a tricked-up venue to help IMO.



> I think the only archers affected by pressure are the lucky dozen that got in on a wild card and don't have access to million dollar training facilities.


Uhm, negative good buddy. There are pretty obvious effects of pressure on many of the archers. Even the top ones. It's inevitable.

Paula, yes, you are correct. Once an archer is capable of shooting 640+ ranking rounds, it is all about the mental game at that point...

John


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

wow!...i see a lot of monday morning quarterbacking on this thread right now..

i guess i shouldn't be surprised....it happens everytime the favorites don't win!!

PS..some would even call it sourgraping...

FWIW i cannot imagine the pressure in those matches but it must be in the super-mega category!!


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## Jim Colgate (Jun 12, 2012)

:moviecorn
Great post!


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## DanZ (Feb 17, 2009)

If khatuna catches some breaks with the wind, shoots her best, and wins - we'll all be ok with the format and our excitement will easily eclipse today's frustration 

Go Khatuna!!!


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

simplest and fairest change would be that both archers have to shoot in the same time frame. there are enough cameras that they could focus on both archers at the same time.


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## Jim Colgate (Jun 12, 2012)

My 60+ year old "young" mom, was watching the archery matches with me and she normally does not watch much sports. She was "oohing and awing" and hanging on every shot, like it was a world series baseball game! Amazing! Heck, for that matter i was oohing and awing!! 

Jim:aero:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB, I agree. Even alternating can be pretty unfair in gusty winds.

John


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

although it may be fairer, the simultaneous shooting format would rob the event of much of it's drama...JMHO..


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Khatuna won her match! She advances to face...Berengere Schuh (who beat S. Korea's Hyeonju Choi in a shootoff!). She's doing well keeping the U.S. multi-medal hope alive. The 30 she shot in the 4th set really helped her. Well done.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good for her. Like Vic, she's a great matchplay archer. Always rising above her ranking. Schuh is as well though, so this will be a tremendous match for both archers. 

John


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## Bamacrazy (Dec 20, 2005)

which Americans are still in competition? I,m on vacatition and away from all tv and with limited Internet access.


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

Khatuna is the lone wolf!


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

KHATUNA beats BERENGERE!!!!! MEDAL MATCH MEDAL MATCH!!! USA USA USA!!!!!!!!!


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## Huntergirla (Oct 22, 2006)

Khatuna is the only one left, going to metal match. GO KAT....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wow. That is really amazing. She wants it pretty bad. These could very well be her final Olympic games.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think it's safe to say that Khatuna, Vic and Jenny have been the best matchplay competitors in Olympic competiton the U.S. has seen. Particularly Vic. His record of top 10 finishes along with top team finishes in the Olympic games is without parallel since matchplay began. 

John


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Watching the 2nd semi match. Avitia's bow was being blown around a lot by the wind on 1 shot in the 1st set. Why can't these matches be held in an enclosed stadium?

Go Khatuna for the bronze.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Newbie, I wouldn't want them to go indoors. Dealing with wind and rain is part of the sport. But this particular venue is very unfair to the archers, I think, since the affect of the wind actually changes midway downrange. That's just not something we ever see. But as I've said, they are more well protected from the winds themselves than we were in Athens, so it has to be better than what we dealt with there from the standpoint of being able to hold steady. But holding steady and not having any clue where to aim is still very frustrating. The event either needs to be guarded from the winds on both sides all the way to the target (like it was in Beijing) or it needs to be on a completely open field. The half shelter, half open venue in London and open-ended horseshoe stadium in Athens are just adding to the crap shoot atmosphere IMO.

When I saw the big opening 30M before the targets, I had one thought... wind tunnel. Who in their right mind would set up an archery venue like this. I think it's someone who is wanting to see major upsets and unpredictable finishes. No competitive archer would choose this venue arrangment.

John


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## Magna (Sep 19, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I think it's someone who is wanting to see major upsets and unpredictable finishes.


Thanks for this info, John. There seemed to be a lot of upsets and near-upsets at this games, and I was curious why. I think this probably explains a lot of it.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

Interesting to note that the Olympics wasn't Brady's first loss to Taylor Worth. As recently as a month ago at Ogden he lost to him in a tough fought match. Might that have been going through his head going in to that Olympic round?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Possibly. Only Brady knows that, but if I know Brady, he wasn't too worried about losing. From what I can tell, he doesn't waste any time or energy thinking about what would happen if he lost...

A good lesson for most folks.

A common quality shared with truly great archers like Brady, Vic, Butch, Justin, Jenny and a rare few others is that they see their losses as abberations. Something of a fluke, if you will. It was an off day, the other archer was hot, etc. 

This is the mark of unshakeable confidence in onesself. It is rare, but it is common among great athletes.

They leave the worrying about self-image to everyone else. 

John


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Just so there is a reference to this thread, this photo is from an undisclosed location at an undisclosed event.......cough cough

Like the flags?









I have video of the right one swiveling arround the pole about 3 times, and the left one kinda pointing up somewhere :tongue:


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> Just so there is a reference to this thread, this photo is from an undisclosed location at an undisclosed event.......cough cough
> 
> Like the flags?
> 
> ...



Now that is awesome!!!! At the Texas Doinker Shootout in 2010, the wind was so bad that it was pulling the pole sideways! I lost 3 EZ Up tents that day!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've seen worse...


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

gairsz said:


> Has any of you seen fencing. Every freaking point athletes are screaming and pumping their arms. First to 15 wins or go home. Very exciting.
> 
> Gary


So glad you pointed this out. But certainly if you do this in archery you are a bad sport and you get reprimanded by the CEO of USAA! Archery folks are so not with the times it is stupid!!!!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

the archery matches i have seen have always been noisy from the fans, spectators and teamates of the protagonists..

many elite coaches--specially koreans-- advocate training with a radio blaring beside the archer to get them used to it and improve their concentration...

noisy matches are nothing new...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> the archery matches i have seen have always been noisy from the fans, spectators and teamates of the protagonists..
> 
> many elite coaches--specially koreans-- advocate training with a radio blaring beside the archer to get them used to it and improve their concentration...
> 
> noisy matches are nothing new...


After the trials in 2004, Vic gave me an audio tape of the gold medal match in Sydney. He told me "train with this." I didn't have a radio loud enough so I pulled my wife's van up to my shooting line, opened up all the doors and side door, and blared the training tape full blast while I shot to the horn on the tape. It was probably the best training I received prior to the games. By the time we shot the team round in Athens, I felt like I had already been there. 

For archers planning to compete in elite competition, it is so important to find a way to train under the conditions you will experience as much as possible. Whether it's noise, rain, left to right wind, tailwind, annoying people around you  whatever.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> After the trials in 2004, Vic gave me an audio tape of the gold medal match in Sydney. He told me "train with this." I didn't have a radio loud enough so I pulled my wife's van up to my shooting line, opened up all the doors and side door, and blared the training tape full blast while I shot to the horn on the tape. It was probably the best training I received prior to the games. By the time we shot the team round in Athens, I felt like I had already been there.
> 
> For archers planning to compete in elite competition, it is so important to find a way to train under the conditions you will experience as much as possible. Whether it's noise, rain, left to right wind, tailwind, annoying people around you  whatever.


Our local shop has a Dart league. Imagine a dozen 250 pound four-olds with bows and arrows and you'll get the picture. Add a few F-bombs and lots of wild cheering. Looks like fun, actually. And those guys are actually quite nice people. But if you want distraction, that's the place for it. We shoot there to get away from the scorching summer heat.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"Has any of you seen fencing. Every freaking point athletes are screaming and pumping their arms. First to 15 wins or go home. Very exciting."_

Quite frankly, this is the last thing I'd want to see archers doing. One of the things I so appreciate about archery (and old school baseball) is the decorum and civility. The fans should be the ones jumping and pumping and yelling - not the athletes. IMO. Nothing wrong with revealing a pulse, but ... I prefer Willie Mays' approach - in the mid Fifties, he'd made yet another great run and catch in center field, and a reporter asked him how he'd 'rate that one with some of your other great catches?', and Willie replied something like "it's my place to catch them, not to rate them - I'll leave that to you."

Sometimes I think I'm going to swear off all spectator sports if I see just one more jerk on a football field making a routine tackle or catching an eight yard pass and then jumping around like he just saved the planet from aliens (who was the defensive end for the New York Jets 20 years ago - Mark something - who popularized a lot of that - he just freaked out everytime he made a tackle? He made my blood pressure double), or another basketball player making a dunk from his tippy toes and prancing all the way down the court puffing and pulling his jersey back and forth like he's just done something outlandish that nobody's ever seen before. I see a little bit of it in major league baseball by pitchers the last 10 or 15 years, but hope it doesn't get worse (and don't think it will in the National League as long as they keep requiring pitchers to step into the batter's box).


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

....one of the worse is the "get in the hole!!" guys in golf!!....

they shout it even if the guy is still 400 yards away!!!!...idiots!!


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

There has been a lot of emotion displayed at these Olympics in archery, and the ratings are up. Let's make the sport boring as possible so the kids watching archery this week will change the input on the tv and go back to playing Xbox. The kids these days are different, so to appeal to there interests you have to evolve. X-games is the perfect example. 

Gary


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> After the trials in 2004, Vic gave me an audio tape of the gold medal match in Sydney. He told me "train with this." I didn't have a radio loud enough so I pulled my wife's van up to my shooting line, opened up all the doors and side door, and blared the training tape full blast while I shot to the horn on the tape. It was probably the best training I received prior to the games. By the time we shot the team round in Athens, I felt like I had already been there.
> 
> For archers planning to compete in elite competition, it is so important to find a way to train under the conditions you will experience as much as possible. Whether it's noise, rain, left to right wind, tailwind, annoying people around you  whatever.


This the exact reason why I don't get USAA and their approach. It was so loud in Mexico at the Pan Am Championships when Kiley shot there that had she not had that background it would have floored her. So this mild mannered stuff is stupid in my opinion. Archery is exciting and should stay that way...not some boring flinging of arrows. Archers that are animated are fun to watch. Matt Zumbo is not unsportsman like in his shooting, he is expressive and fun to watch. USAA has done everything they can to squash that out of him and make archery no fun for him. I for one am opposed to a CEO getting involved at that level. If the judges found nothing wrong with it and nothing was illegal per the rules then leave it alone and let it go. The Olympics are loud just as jmvargas points out almost all international events are. Our sport is getting attention now and the comments from people has been that they had no idea it was intense and so exciting. But USAA wants to lose all that by making the events hohum boring all the time. Let's learn from the international sport where archery is so big and grow archery in the USA.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

The shoot at Vegas where they turn the lights off and they put the archers on the big screens and call every arrow live are awesome for spectators. The crowd is cheering and booing all at the same time ect. 
Fun stuff and lots funner to watch then a regular match

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"There has been a lot of emotion displayed at these Olympics in archery, and the ratings are up. Let's make the sport boring as possible so the kids watching archery this week will change the input on the tv and go back to playing Xbox. The kids these days are different, so to appeal to there interests you have to evolve. X-games is the perfect example. "_

Personally, I think there's too much worshiping at the alter of 'what kids want' in todays culture. But that's truly a topic for a different thread. 

Could you describe in detail the type of different behavior from the archers themselves that you're advocating? I guess I don't quite understand what you're arguing for. 

How can one charge that 'we should keep archery as boring as possible'? I mean, the comment's been made that TV ratings are WAY UP in THIS Olympics, with - as far as I saw - a wonderful conducted effort of manners and good sportsmanship by all the archers from around the world. Why mess with success , as long as the success is working?

Maybe one reason that a lot of 'first time archery watchers' are enjoying watching archery so much is precisely BECAUSE it's a breath of fresh air to them (where the competitors are respectful and comport themselves as ladies and gentlemen) - maybe a lot of young people today (I'm pretty confident a BUNCH of not-so-young people are) are TIRED of the strutting, head-cocked, smack-talking, me-me-me posture/comportment that is the standard M.O. of so many athletes in so many sports today. Maybe these first time watchers are hungry for something more.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jmvargas,

_"....one of the worse is the "get in the hole!!" guys in golf!!....

they shout it even if the guy is still 400 yards away!!!!...idiots!!"_

Yeah, it makes me boil when I hear those idiots yelling that. It's not the 'yelling', it's the "banal unthinkingness of the words" that gets under my skin.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

lksseven said:


> jmvargas,
> 
> _"....one of the worse is the "get in the hole!!" guys in golf!!....
> 
> ...



Did you hear the guy shout it during the men's individual bronze medal match? That made me chuckle.

-T


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tkaap said:


> Did you hear the guy shout it during the men's individual bronze medal match? That made me chuckle.
> 
> -T


Now that right there is funny. You gotta give him that much 

I absolutely want the fans to go nuts and I absolutely want the archers to maintain a respectable amount of professionalism and appropriate amount of celebration on the field. But then, those are all subjective terms and we'll all interpret them differently.

I can say this however - one reason the Olympics attract so many folks and have such a huge audience is that the athletes are VERY respectful and professional in the best sense of the word. Many countries find it very distasteful when they see the chest-thumping and bragging. That is a mainly a U.S. driven phenomenon and the very reason we are pretty well hated and looked down upon by so many other nations, both developed and undeveloped. It's not our finest export, if you want to look at it that way.

An archer celebrating after a good shot is absolutely okay with me. But not while the other archer is in the process of drawing and shooting. That would be like a golfer high-fiving his caddie while the other golfer is standing over his putt. Just bad form, I don't care who you are. 

Archery is one of the last true "gentleman's" sports (sorry to use that term, ladies) and showing respect to the fellow competitor is what sets this sport and other sports like golf, apart from the rest. These sports attract a different type of athlete, and that's just fine. There are sports people can play if they want to yell and scream in the middle of competition. There is a sport for each personality, and that's a good thing.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

I wonder how the Korean team felt after they were beaten by the US team to go to the gold metal match. I guess this display of emotion is OK because we won. If the Koreans had won an done the same thing then it would have been inappropriate. Winners are supposed to feel like winners, and losers are supposed to feel like, well how ever they feel.
















There has been plenty of arm pumping, head bobbing, waves to the cheering crowd, and bows being lifted and pumped over archer's heads at these games. It has been great for our sport. Lets keep this sport in the stone age so the old farts can feel good about it. The interest in the sport from the young will fade away and you will have what you have always had, a boring sport to watch.
















When your standing on the line in a big elimination match, about to throw up all over the shooting line, your heart is pounding out of your chest, feeling like you are shaking all over, sweating, barely able to catch your breath, but you pull it all together and put them in the middle of the target, you earned the right to celebrate great shooting.









This sport will be taken to the next level in this country by the youth, if the past will step aside and let them.

Which one of the above images is over celebration? Which emotional release is the correct one? These images are just a few from the past week, there are plenty more if you need to see more.

On a side note. In women's tennis today, Serena Williams demoralized Russia's Maria Sharapova, 6-0 and 6-1, for the individual gold medal today. Williams jumped up and down all aver the court after. A great moment, the thrill of victory, but I guess inappropriate be cause the losers feeling might have been hurt.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> When your standing on the line in a big elimination match, about to throw up all over the shooting line, your heart is pounding out of your chest, feeling like you are shaking all over, sweating, barely able to catch your breath, but you pull it all together and put them in the middle of the target, you earned the right to celebrate great shooting.


Agreed Gary. You should try it sometime.



> This sport will be taken to the next level in this country by the youth, if the past will step aside and let them


j

This is sport. Nobody "lets" anyone do anything. You earn it.

Gary you're arguing apples and oranges. It's one thing to celebrate after the win. It's entirely another thing to celebrate while your opponent is still shooting. I think that's the point some are trying to make.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"Which one of the above images is over celebration? Which emotional release is the correct one? These images are just a few from the past week, there are plenty more if you need to see more.

On a side note. In women's tennis today, Serena Williams demoralized Russia's Maria Sharapova, 6-0 and 6-1, for the individual gold medal today. Williams jumped up and down all aver the court after."_

All of the images you showed above, in my opinion, are great. That's not in the least what I'm describing as behavior to avoid. I'm talking about wanting to avoid the slippery slope that leads to Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay hollering "I'm the greatest! I'm purty! Joe Frazier is ugly!", or NFL players makes such asses of themselves in touchdown celebrations that the NFL has to institute rules and penalties for 'unsportsmanlike celebration'. THAT's what I'm arguing to guard against, and it's the incrementalism that always get you there before you know it. 

Regarding the post tennis match antics by Serena Williams, I thought she eventually overstepped. Jumping and shouting for joy was great, and genuine. The subsequent high stepping and jitterbugging that went on for another 30 seconds was not my cup of tea.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Agreed Gary. You should try it sometime.


I get my rocks off fighting fire, not bows and arrows. Maybe if I can shoot flaming arrows. 



limbwalker said:


> This is sport. Nobody "lets" anyone do anything. You earn it.


You missed the point. Things are changing. There will be much more attention to the sport because of the show of emotion. I think for the better. Others will just have to get use to it, and stop complaining about it and trying to stop it. You can always play chess.



limbwalker said:


> Gary you're arguing apples and oranges. It's one thing to celebrate after the win. It's entirely another thing to celebrate while your opponent is still shooting. I think that's the point some are trying to make.


When an archer pumps their arm after a great end and celebrates their own achievement, that is a good thing. Even if the other archery has not finished shooting their last arrow. It is an individual reinforcing the positive. It has nothing to do with the other archers performance, or whether they win or lose the end.

I think more time should be spent on opponents not playing head games, calling arrows in that are clearly out, "F"ing with other shooters equipment. We have seen and experienced it all. This is not a gentleman's sport. It's every man for himself. I know of one instance where a JDT shooter finished shooting and stayed on the line in her match and whispered, miss, miss, miss, while the other JDT shooter was at full draw. I have watched while coaches call arrows 10's when they are clearly 8's while the other shooter is shooting. This has not been a problem for Matt because he has 20/8 vision and can see the arrows on the target without a scope. It is just a sad display of what really goes on in this gentleman's sport.

I tell Matt, pump your god damn arm if you want, who gives a crap. People are going to complain about something anyway. If it isn't the winner enjoying themselves it will probably be about the wind was tricky.

Make it exciting and grow the sport. Keep it boring and it will go way. Geez, in the hunger games the girl is killing people with a bow and arrow, and this is what we want to help grow interest for the sport. I am sure the first time a kid goes out and kills someone with a bow there will be a 10 day waiting period to buy arrows.

Cheer for yourself, because for the most part, nobody else will. Brady, keep loving what you do, it is amazing and inspiring to watch.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> archer pumps their arm after a great end and celebrates their own achievement, that is a good thing. Even if the other archery has not finished shooting their last arrow.


Again, apples and oranges. It's one thing to pump a fist silently and entirely something else to yell out while your opponent is at full draw. I think you know the difference.

You're clearly wanting to argue something here Gary, and I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with anyone. 

We all know bad sportsmanship when we see it. I don't think anyone is advocating for poor sportsmanship. I don't think it adds anything to suggest that some need to "go play chess." Because nobody here is criticizing an appropriate celebration, at the appropriate time.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

We do all agree. 

I love this sport because my son loves it. I am so stoked his sport is cool now. 

Gary


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Archery always has been cool. IJS :wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SBills said:


> Archery always has been cool. IJS :wink:


Yea, Scott. We were archers before archers were cool... ha, ha, ha.

John


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

For what it's worth, not one single archer on this stage "pumped and yelled" while his or her opponent was still shooting in cases where the opponent's shot would count (as opposed to dead shot on a clinched set). 

Celebration after the shooting's done is great. Making a clown of oneself while the opponent is still in play is simply being an asshat. Very simple concept that some people seem to refuse to acknowledge. Fortunately none of these people seemed to be on the line at Lord's.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good post George. Absolutely what many of us are trying to explain. 

Good job calling the event once again. Might have been one of the most exciting, energized Olympic venues yet. Certainly seemed like it. 

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

>--gt--> said:


> For what it's worth, not one single archer on this stage "pumped and yelled" while his or her opponent was still shooting in cases where the opponent's shot would count (as opposed to dead shot on a clinched set).
> 
> Celebration after the shooting's done is great. Making a clown of oneself while the opponent is still in play is simply being an asshat. Very simple concept that some people seem to refuse to acknowledge. Fortunately none of these people seemed to be on the line at Lord's.


I have been looking through my posts trying to find where I said it was ok for an archery to disrupt their opponent. I could not find anything, so if I did please feel free to point it out.

The pictures I posted were great moments for the people shooting, their fellow countrymen, and the people watching. I guess I didn’t make it clear that these are the moments that made archery exciting to watch at these games.

I am a parent of a kid that has an Olympic dream. It is a tremendous sacrifice physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially for our entire family. When I see an athlete have a great moment at the games it moves me, and when they fail I am sad for them. It doesn’t matter what country they are from. They all have sacrificed a tremendous amount regardless whether they win or lose. In fact, whether they made it to the games or not. There are plenty of athletes that worked just as hard and sacrificed as much or more than some that did make it. Just because they didn’t go to London does not diminish the effort. Sometimes the journey is what is important.

George I sent you a private message.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I am a parent of a kid that has an Olympic dream.


Yea, Gary, I think we all got that.



> It is a tremendous sacrifice physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially for our entire family.


What I think you need to remember is that it is as well for so many others. Yours isn't a unique situation at all. And Matt is VERY lucky to have the support he has. I know many archers with as much talent that don't have the means.



> I have been looking through my posts trying to find where I said it was ok for an archery to disrupt their opponent


I think your argumentative style simply made it hard to tell the difference.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

gairsz said:


> I have been looking through my posts trying to find where I said it was ok for an archery to disrupt their opponent. I could not find anything, so if I did please feel free to point it out.
> 
> The pictures I posted were great moments for the people shooting, their fellow countrymen, and the people watching. I guess I didn’t make it clear that these are the moments that made archery exciting to watch at these games.
> 
> ...


Gary,

When I saw the pictures you posted, my first impression was that you were trying to justify the "controversy" Matt had a while back by showing others celebrating. In fact, I seem to remember that this is not the first time you have done this....

Look....no one cares about that anymore except you! Let it go! Your post here are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself and him...

And while I am quite happy for how far Matt went in the Trials, please don't give us the whole sacrifice story....we are aware of what it takes, with most of us watching the process up close. This was his/you/your family's choice to pursue this dream...


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow, I just thought it was a great time to be an archer, and the games showed that. I am not trying to justifiy anything because there is nothing to justify. I guess I will spell it out the best I can. When I see a person reach their dreams it is moving to me because I can relate to how hard they worked to get there. I thought we were takling about why the ratings for archery were up. IMHO it thought it was from how exciting the match play can be, and what some of the pictures showed. I am just a dumb fireman who don't comunicate too good. lol

Thanks for the advice. You guys are great.

Gary


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Are you sure people aren't flocking to the sport because of those 3 movies and decent coverage on NBC? I'm pretty sure it's not a few emotional displays that did it....none of which were excessive or on the the shooting line....


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Maybe. Probably. It just looks alot more fun than most of the tournaments I have been to. 

Gary


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

It certainly is better to watch! For hardcore archery peeps like us, we can go to an event and just watch a qualification round and have a good time. The average viewer is never going to understand what that means...

Now this Olympic round, with sets and one arrow shoot-offs makes for great TV! Throw in the crowds cheering for their favorites and it is a watchable sport for the mainstream!

Two things we need to change....

The Venue: fix the wind issue...walls all the way down or move it indoors!

The Bow: Have a compound division with an even smaller target than now at 70M, where a bad shot means a 6 and not a 9....

A beer sponsor wouldn't be bad either!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

gairsz said:


> Maybe. Probably. It just looks alot more fun than most of the tournaments I have been to.
> 
> Gary


That's because they were drinking in the stands...  God bless the British.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> That's because they were drinking in the stands...  God bless the British.


Alcohol is not allowed at the Olympics. Liquids in amounts greater than 100ml are not allowed.

http://www.london2012.com/mm/Document/Documents/General/01/25/44/06/Prohibitedandrestricteditemslists_Neutral.pdf


They probably smuggled in some tea bags though....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Uhm, I'm pretty sure I saw a few plastic cups full of some amber-colored liquid. Musta been tea then 

And, so I wonder how far the nearest pub was from Lords?  Most likely, not far.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Uhm, I'm pretty sure I saw a few plastic cups full of some amber-colored liquid. Musta been tea then
> 
> And, so I wonder how far the nearest pub was from Lords?  Most likely, not far.
> 
> John



That would be Lord's Tavern...it is onsite...:darkbeer:

Gotta love Google Maps!


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> That would be Lord's Tavern...it is onsite...:darkbeer:


That might explain it ............ not entirely convinced though. Wasn't there, so can't say.


EDIT:


Not exactly archery-related but curiosity got the better of me. Limbwalker is correct..........

From the London 2012 FAQs:

*Will alcohol be sold in London 2012 venues?*

Yes - beer and wine will be on sale at all London 2012 venues, with the exception of Hadleigh Farm and Box Hill. Spectators cannot bring their own alcohol into venues.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Greysides said:


> That might explain it ............ not entirely convinced though. Wasn't there, so can't say.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> ...


Man, I shoulda gone after all... ha, ha, ha


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Are you sure people aren't flocking to the sport because of those 3 movies and decent coverage on NBC? I'm pretty sure it's not a few emotional displays that did it....none of which were excessive or on the the shooting line....


You are completely right Scott. The only reason people flocked to the Archery at the Olympics this year is because of the three movies and NBC's coverage. And the only reason thousands of people continued to watch and tweeted comments like this "Wow I had no idea that archery was so intense and exciting!" was because of three movies and NBC's coverage. Yep the only reason they stayed was because of the movies and we all know the event and the archers themselves were boring to watch (oh and so was the announcer). They stayed (and tweeted) because of three movies and great coverage. 

And I have to agree with Gary, when did anyone say anything about being on the shooting line? In fact the events that I spoke of earlier DID NOT take place on the shooting line or while someone was shooting. Oh and the events I spoke of were not excessive either. Nothing more then what was pictured above (you know the ones that no one cares about).


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## gpb (Feb 14, 2009)

This may be a little change in the subject but I'm really curious as to the strategy the winning archers used to solve the wind problem. I'm hopeful that George with his unique perspective of being able to watch each shot with his spotting scope and having access to many of the participants can shed some light on how the winners solved the wind problem better than others. Did the winners play the fickle wind better by aiming off, or did they just aim straight at the center, try for a good shot and hope for relative calm, or was it a combination of both? There were numerous upsets. Some may have been caused by olympic nerves but I suspect the majority were caused by how the wind problem was handled. It seemed the only U.S. archer who figured it out was Katuna, while the Koreans got it figured out after the mens team loss and went on to be sucessful in the mens and women individual


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

I saw plenty of beer in the stands.

Well, I say beer. It was lager, which is *nearly* beer...


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

John_K said:


> I saw plenty of beer in the stands.
> 
> Well, I say beer. It was lager, which is *nearly* beer...


Was it anywhere else? Could that explain the wobbly bowarms?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, alcohol is a banned substance for Olympic archers.

Oddly enough however, I learned at the athlete orientation in Athens that it was NOT a banned substance for shooters (rifle,pistol,shotgun) ! :mg:

I went six weeks without a beer in '04, in which time I learned that it was the quickest way for me to lose 10 lbs.! ha, ha.

I blame the Brit's for getting it on the banned substance list... 

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wstdQCe364&t=8m45s

1996 Olympics in Atlanta - lots of emotion displayed by both winning archers and the crowd here, too. And a home country gold medal winner with movie star looks. But that didn't translate into an avalanche of new archers. 

2000 Olympic Trials featured Geena Davis in the semi-finals, who not only has movie star good looks, she IS a movie star. All of the attendant publicity that she generated for the sport didn't translate into a tsunami of new and sustaining archery participants.

Obviously the movies this year, plus greatly expanded accessibility by NBC to show archery via TV and the internet, pulled a lot of casual viewers in, and once watching, many of them thoroughly enjoyed the competition. It seems most likely to me that the archers' skill and the format's suitability to entertaining viewing provided the enjoyment and fun that viewers felt while watching. I seriously doubt that this big influx of eyeballs was due to the 'thrilling' fist pump of this or that competitor (I mean, the table tennis competitors pump their fist after every single point, ultimately making any emotive display from any point a snoozer) 

The real question is, a year from now, will we still be trying to figure out how to handle all of the increased participation at local clubs/events and national tournaments, or will archery have had its day in the TV camera sunlight and receded back to its normal levels? Or maybe there isn't a question at all, only another example of Olympic heft in the publics' consciousness ... track and field always gets a LOT of viewers during the Olympics, but what are the TV ratings of track meets in non-Olympic years? Are non-Olympic year track meets even ON TV?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, I've said the same thing. Right after our "home" games in 96, we had a young, brash individual Gold Medalist from sunny Cali and soon after, a huge movie star who went on Letterman (in a tiny skirt and heels I might add) and shot an Olympic recurve on camera. I cannot think of any time in our recent past that archery got more press than this. And still archery languished.

Hopefully this time, more young kids are being attracted to the sport, and hopefully this time, we're better positioned to put bows in their hands and give them a place to shoot. 

I know I'm doing my part (and it's going to kill me soon enough) by helping the local 4-H archery program and starting a new JOAD club where I live. I hope everyone who is capable of doing so is either volunteering at their local JOAD/4-H/NASP program, or learning how to start one of their own. Because if you aren't, then you just plain don't get to complain about how unpopular archery is. 

My newest young archer - 8 years old - and she shot her first "10" last night! It was great!









John


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

At my old club we'd see plenty of juniors turn up for our beginners' courses after seeing archery on the big screen, but none of them seemed to stay.

It was only when a coach and I pushed for dedicated junior shooting times at the club twice a week outdoors that the junior side of the club grew from two or three occasional archers to 10 to 12 regular shooters. Several went on to win national championships in their age categories.

In short, publicity is no good without the framework to back up beginning archers. I wish we had something like the JOAD programme over here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I wish we had something like the JOAD programme over here.


Start one! The pins and lanyards aren't expensive, and any decent trophy shop should be able to make something up for you.

Or better yet, just use ours! I'm not sure there's any rule against USArchery's JOAD being used overseas.

John


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Start one! The pins and lanyards aren't expensive, and any decent trophy shop should be able to make something up for you.
> 
> Or better yet, just use ours! I'm not sure there's any rule against USArchery's JOAD being used overseas.
> 
> John


Hmmm. You might have something there, John. Perhaps I can have a word with my club committee to see if they're sympathetic to the idea of a more structured shooting programme for juniors. You've got to start somewhere 

Ta!


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> No, alcohol is a banned substance for Olympic archers.
> Oddly enough however, I learned at the athlete orientation in Athens that it was NOT a banned substance for shooters (rifle,pistol,shotgun) ! :mg:


Funny. When I was shooting and getting drug-tested, they would provide beer to help us pee.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Funny. When I was shooting and getting drug-tested, they would provide beer to help us pee.


I got Sprite. But only because it was a sponsored product.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Wasn't there a big stink by some because no beer was available at our NFAA National Championships?? I think the ones held last year at the new Easton Home office/NFAA Home Office some place out in the Great Plains where no one lives or can easily reach...including the exclusion of beer or was it those who didn't like the idea of beer being sold at a "family" event that were complaining? But, at the Olympics (probably not considered a family event) beer is available....hmmmm we are confused.

I definitely thing is was the movies and the power of excitement by the shooters that has raised the interest in archery. Unfortuantely the USAA has no plan to capitalize on it.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Try not to confuse what you read on archerytalk with reality. The USAA - NFAA Yankton event in 2011 had plenty of beer for sale for those who wanted it. Shooters were subject to doping control.

Beer was available on the field in the Barcelona Olympics (non-alcohol on the athlete side of the fence and alcohol on the other side, meaning anyone who wanted real beer would have no problem getting one).

The in-competition FITA alcohol ban was enacted not long after Barcelona. Some shooters having a drink or two before then was a well known dirty little secret of our sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Try not to confuse what you read on archerytalk with reality


George, we all know how you feel about the "errornet" but to consistently criticize a forum that many find to be one of the most helpful sources of information in our sport does not really serve any constructive purpose. 

You have managed to think enough of AT to return here and post your thoughts - which we all appreciate - , so there must be some redeeming qualities to this forum in your mind, otherwise you wouldn't waste your time. So I don't understand why you feel the need to bash AT so often in your replies. 

Literally hundreds of fita recurve and compound archers have benefitted from this forum. There is not a tournament that goes by where someone doesn't come up to me and thank me for a response to their question about archery, tournaments, training, JOAD, etc. I'm sure the same is true for many other long-time contributors. Staff at USArchery have used this forum, with success, to get important and timely information out to the club leaders and attendants at major U.S. events. 

One reason I returned to read and post here was because many people in our sport simply have nowhere else to go for information about Olympic style archery, or even fita compound archery. I would ask you, what would you have them do? Travel across country and pay hundreds of dollars to a "Level 3/4" coach who most likely won't know as much as the collective expertise on this board?

I just don't get it. You have so much to contribute. Yet you turn people off of this forum even within your own posts...

John


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> My newest young archer - 8 years old - and she shot her first "10" last night! It was great!
> 
> View attachment 1434148
> 
> ...


This put a smile on my face! Mine is 4 now, and I think I'll have her over to the Texas Archery Academy within the next week or 2!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> George, we all know how you feel about the "errornet" but to consistently criticize a forum that many find to be one of the most helpful sources of information in our sport does not really serve any constructive purpose.
> 
> You have managed to think enough of AT to return here and post your thoughts - which we all appreciate - , so there must be some redeeming qualities to this forum in your mind, otherwise you wouldn't waste your time. So I don't understand why you feel the need to bash AT so often in your replies.
> 
> ...


+1000....and to GT:..."stop confusing YOUR version of reality with the real thing!!"


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I for one appreciate George's "tell it like I see it" attitude. He has a wealth of first hand information that none of the rest of us can possibly approach, (even Rick McKinney, when it comes to the current international scene), and anything he posts gets my attention.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I for one appreciate George's "tell it like I see it" attitude. He has a wealth of first hand information that none of the rest of us can possibly approach, (even Rick McKinney, when it comes to the current international scene), and anything he posts gets my attention.


I agree. It's unfortunate though that he has to constantly broadcast his poor opinion of this forum. I guess I don't see the point if a person is going to come here to post something. It's kind of ironic, don't you think?

John


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Then again, is it necessary to call him out on it? 

Pointing it out isn't going to change a person's posting style, and the readers can decide for themselves if they want to read anyone's posts or not. I would rather have knowledgeable people posting here regularly than see them driven away thinking that it's not worth the verbal abuse of people criticizing their style (or personality).


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"It's unfortunate though that he has to constantly broadcast his poor opinion of this forum. I guess I don't see the point if a person is going to come here to post something. It's kind of ironic, don't you think?"_

John,

It's the reverse shade of the old Groucho Marx line "I wouldn't be caught dead in a club that would have me as a member."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash, my point is that attitudes like that - especially when they come from experienced people - simply lessen the quality of the overall forum and discourage others from seeing the real value this forum can provide. If the snarky comments were coming from someone who had very little experience or credibility, they could more easily be ignored. I, and most others, hold people like George, Rick, Tony, You, myself and other veterans of this sport to a higher standard. 

This forum has helped me and countless other archers over the years. It has enhanced the quality of life for many people who enjoy our sport, especially those who still have the courage and passion to pursue their love of this sport in spite of being isolated and surrounded by archers who have no clue what they are doing or why. Pardon me if I want to defend this forum from insults.

I asked a specific question - "what would you have people do?" Meaning, if this isn't "reality" then where would you have them go instead. Still waiting for that reply... Criticism requires very little mental fortitude. Solutions are a little tougher.

I think it's interesting to note that on the old Sagittarius site, I don't recall the criticism. It's as if it was somehow "better" because it was a more international board. Well, many of those same people post right here these days, and yet AT isn't "worthy?" Explain that one to me. There are some that only want to belong to "exclusive" clubs, I think. Even better if they are international clubs. 

Whatever.

John


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

And my point is that you can't change people's personalities by publicly criticizing them. Calling them out like that drives them away rather than changes them. This forum is far better with GT the way he is (like him or not) than without him, and I fear that he will simply disappear again as he did years ago.

I understand your motivation. Let us simply agree to disagree on this.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, let's just ignore the bad behavior and by doing that, condone it. That's better. 

I guess we will just disagree on this one then.

My apologies to the members of the forum for trying to defend this place from those who would unjustifiably criticize it. 

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I agree with John. A lively exchange of ideas and opinions is great. But most of us can recognize, when we see it, the difference between stark disagreement and 'snark' that starts to poison an atmosphere. I like the stark; hate the snark.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Stash said:


> Calling them out like that drives them away rather than changes them.


GT posts here only when it suits him, I was surprised to see his comment as I haven't seen posts of his here recently.



> Try not to confuse what you read on archerytalk with reality. The USAA - NFAA Yankton event in 2011 had plenty of beer for sale for those who wanted it. Shooters were subject to doping control.


I presume that comment referred to the mini-diversion between Limbwalker and myself. I was mistaken in thinking, having previously read the (linked to) instructions for spectators, that banned alcohol being brought in, that alcohol wouldn't be sold on the premises. 

When it was pointed out there was a pub on-site, I checked to clarify the situation and posted a correction- all within a short period of time. 

My comment about it being the cause of wobbly arms was very much tongue-in-check. I even enlisted a smilie to help the understanding of that.

If that is what under-pins this current difference of opinion then I'm sorry for my hand in it but a slower reading of the pertinent posts should have avoided it.

It did elicit a few interesting historical facts though.  

When I see GT posting, as a 'high up' in the Hoyt/Easton company I do ask myself what is his motivation (we all have motives as to why we post).

When I read from a post of Ricks and get the impression he has been, effectively, 'told off' and I again ask myself what is going on that I'm not aware of.

The instigation for the concurrent thread about the 'Assessment of the Olympic Archery Event' seems to have concerns about the suitability of the venue, and the way it was prepared, for an Olympic tournament.

It is very unwise to disagree with those with actual hands-on experience of this level of competition on the basis of what was seen on TV coverage when you don't have similar experience yourself.

However much I'd like to change my opinion to the version that is being promulgated I can not reconcile it with what I perceived, even after a couple days of reconsidering it.

I will have to live with a different impression of events. 

This isn't to say that the cream didn't rise to the top. The semi-finals, male and female, gave brilliant displays of archery and truly deserve the rewards.

I was too wrapped up in the shooting to remember the wind. Did the gusts stop for that time? They did come and go during the competition.

Given the understanding of the importance of the mental game I can't make myself believe it was that that caused so much upset. For some people, yes, for the more experienced.....nah!

Brady, in the mens competition, in the match prior to going out was in fantastic form. I really believed he would go all the way, showing great compassion for the archer he had just beaten. 

One match later and he could hardly hit a yellow! 

Choking? Sorry, I find it hard to believe, not the world #1 with experience of shooting all over the world (with a stated intention to gain more experience after his last Olympics) and having shot there the previous day in the team competition. 

What about Victor Rubin? A cool customer.... he comes in, shoots, arrow wide, looks back to his coach, nods, adjusts the sights, next arrows on the ball. Then goes out a little too easily (going from memory now, so could be off).

I was watching as I saw archers bow arms being pushed to one side. They couldn't come down, once committed, due to the time allowed to shoot being short, they had to stay at full draw and hang the consequences.

Hence the delays coming through the clickers.

I believe there is a difference in reaction from an archer that has not risen to others challenge and lost on even terms, and one that has had to fight the wind, luck and the other archer, and lost an uphill struggle.

I believe I could see it in them.

If this is part of the great game of archery then so be it. Let them shoot together, at the same time, not sequentially.

If this is part of the economic reality of keeping archery as an Olympic sport than we have to pay the piper and shut up (or be shut up).

We have great, well-deserving champions but on another day, at another venue I believe the results wouldn't be just a little different, I believe they would be very different.

I'm sorry, I can't drink the kool aid. We will have to agree to disagree.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay then. Back to REALITY.... 

John K, should I check with USArchery for you to see if there is any way our organization could contribute to starting a JOAD program in the UK? I'd be happy to do that! 

I think if we could "export" JOAD to the rest of the world, it would be a HUGE accomplishment for USArchery.

Until then, you can always log onto www.usarchery.org and download the JOAD handbook, which includes the scoring rounds, distances, age categories, etc. we use for awarding achievement pins. It would be a great place to start!

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If that is what under-pins this current difference of opinion then I'm sorry for my hand in it but a slower reading of the pertinent posts should have avoided it.


Greysides, please don't condone condescending behavior by apologizing. You did nothing wrong and are as entitled to your observations as any of the rest of us.

At the end of the day, all of us - even those who were at the venue - were *spectators*. Nothing more.

Only those on the line, bows in hand, know the real answers.

John


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Only those on the line, bows in hand, know the real answers.
> 
> John


That is indisputable. To hear the stories would great. It would settle the matter once and for all.

Once those archers have retired and written their accounts it will be finally 'sorted'.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> it will be finally 'sorted'


Nah. Some armchair quarterback will still disagree with them. It's inevitable. There is always someone (or lots of someones) who think they know better than the person on the field. 

John


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Interesting comments from Jake Kaminski on his blog .

Here are the bits I found interesting.



> We started training at a local athletics facility about 10 minutes down the road from the athlete village, we were very surprised that not only did we have a private facility but we shot the first four days here in London indoors! This was a HUGE advantage that was absolutely an asset to the entire performance of the team. All of our competitors had to train those first days here out in the sub 70 degree temps and rain. We were able to combat our jet lag in a controlled environment allowing us to shoot great from the get-go which prevented that first couple of day self doubt which usually happens from jet lag.





> We started off slowly with Japan as they did not have a bye as we did in the quarterfinal rounds. This gave them an advantage to help get a read on the wind in the stadium, it was mostly covered for about 50 meters of the field but a WIDE open field just before the targets without proper useable windsocks in view.





> After making it to the gold medal match it was now time to put on a show. We shot extremely well as a team but got rather unlucky on the wind in a few shots which kept the match in favor of the Italian team for the most of the match. It literally came down to the last arrow and Italy needed a ten to win and the wind just happened to die and allowed the last shooter for them to just barely catch the line on the ten ring. We literally lost by less than 1/2" but came away winners no matter what.


The complete article is here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

1/2". I think our Silver "medal margin" in Athens was about 1.5"

It's just the way it goes...

I don't think Jake's comments really do them (the team) justice. 

John


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Sorry John. Only just seen this...



limbwalker said:


> Okay then. Back to REALITY....
> 
> John K, should I check with USArchery for you to see if there is any way our organization could contribute to starting a JOAD program in the UK? I'd be happy to do that!
> 
> ...


I had a few contacts in ArcheryGB before I took a break, but I think they've all moved on. Tell you what, I'll download the manual, have a look, and have a think. I do agree that it would be fantastic for both nations if the JOAD programme was picked up over here.

Thank you


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No question it would, and I can't even think of a reason why we (USArchery) wouldn't want to help with that.

John


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