# C4 with shoot thru system??



## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Anybody put a shoot thru setup on their C4 and notice significant results? Thinking about it


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## Trentsheath (Apr 12, 2012)

You will hardly see any improvement with a single can bow when you change to a shoot through system. Especially considering the 41" at a which dampens out cam lean.

Trent,


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

shoot through system on a single cam, is a little harder to do. 
the fact that the bow is 41 inches long doesn't make it immune to being improved by a shoot through system. when they were more popular back around 1998-2004, most bows that had them were close to that length and they all benefitted from being rigged, shoot-through. anytime you can eliminate/reduce side torque, you are a step ahead of the game, regardless of the bow's length.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Has anyone here ever done it on a Bowtech Specialist by making the Y in the yoke cable a lot longer?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that's essentially what has to be done with a single cam bow. those extremely long legs of the yoke get unstable because of their strand count.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Like ron_w noted, back around 1998 thru 2004, shoot thru cable systems were kind of popular..

I had thought of having a cable system made for my 2000 Hoyt UltraTecs, 38 3/8" ata, this with both the Red Line single cam and Command cams. Two of the best string makers around me noted I wouldn't note much benefit especially beings I had offset guide rods that minimized wheel and cam lean. I suppose it depends on the bows, but my 2010 and 2011 Martin Shadowcats of 41 1/2 and 41 1/4" ata (binary Cat or Nitro Cams) could be shot without the use of guide rods if I use low profile vanes, but required turning the arrow for fletching clearance and then I had all -3- set up with Limb Driver drop rests that also gave clearance for the vanes.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I know I haven't shot a bow better than my old 2002 Merlin Super Nova with it's shoot through rig.


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Interesting, so shoot thru cables are a thing of the past but shoot thru risers are not?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I am shooting a double shoot through system a forth year already, 
OK came out this year with ABS38 and the next gen is a ABS40 with 40" ATA ready to roll as we speak. 
What they did is (with the 38), being a symmetrical cam they put the nocking point absolutely centered between axles, and me transferring that height to the resting point what is greatly below the berger hole. This is possible because they lowered the grip below the center of the riser a decent amount.
So the combination of the center shot being in the center with the string/cams I got the scope pin aligned with that plane as well, I can shoot any spined arrow - mix and matched with the same rest position I don't need to make any L-R adjustment at all...Paper? Paper is good for wiping only, if I really want to check the french tune between several spined arrows I have to go 50 + meters on my really good day to play with...
I've shoot that bow for both FITA and Field tournament this year, it is just a priceless experience...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

dbow said:


> Interesting, so shoot thru cables are a thing of the past but shoot thru risers are not?


 oddly, it seems as though you are correct. even PSE and Hoyt, sell more of their shoot through bows with conventional rigs than shoot through rigs.....the irony of this, is that it is the shoot through rig, that "makes" advantage that a shoot through riser allows. 
there is some advantage to a shoot through riser with a conventional rig, by the way of less riser twist, but that's about the least consequential advantage to consider when discussing the potential advantages to a fully rigged shoot through bow. 
I always wonder why guys get a shoot through bow and not the shoot through rig, to go with it. with that shoot through rig, those risers with the exception of the reduction of riser twist from the window offset area, are just about the same as any conventionally "windowed" riser and that twist is about the least influential impairment in the picture when compared to the advantageous differences between a shoot through riser, vs, a shoot through rig.
in my eyes, ultimately have both is obviously the best situation. after that, the shoot through rig, is far more advantageous than a shoot through riser. 
it almost makes me think guys buy the bows to be able to say they, "have a shoot through bow", and have no idea why they bought it.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

nope- shoot through everything is something of the past

early 70's


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

dbow said:


> Interesting, so shoot thru cables are a thing of the past but shoot thru risers are not?


Probably has to do with who holds the patents to the shoot through cam systems.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

aread said:


> Probably has to do with who holds the patents to the shoot through cam systems.


Darton just came out with shoot through cable and riser bows. Kinda cool. I bet you are right on patent stuff.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

probably has more to do with market share vs cost. Think about how few people wanted a shoot through system over years past....too much of a pain to load.

Now that there are more and more archery games, shoot through is making a come back.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

either Martin or Don Kudlachek(sp?), holds the patent. but I believe it is expired, so litigation isn't much if an issue.
yes, market share is a big issue. a design is only as good as it sells. you have to experience how much nicer a shoot through bow, with a shoot through rig shoots, before you will want one. there's only so many people that can tell the difference, or now the difference when they see it.....ie. can they actually be that much better?.....the answer is a definite ..."yes".


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

If they are that much or even "clearly" better, why don't we see any on the podium? E.g. OK should be dominating the target circuit. They are not (though i have shot one and it's a very nice bow)


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

shoot thru system helps with setting the 3rd axis on sight


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

fanio, 
that, is the million dollar question !. being someone who shot a shoot through bow for years, knows very well how much better they shoot and understands why, I've often wondered that same thing. 
I guess it's simply because the archetypical offset cable rod system works well enough that people other than the few that really want the best conditions, don't bother looking any further than what they can get at any shop.....I dunno.
that said, it doesn't mean that the shoot through bows don't work better, because they do. the problem is that the conventional bows are capable of doing just as good and that's where the money lies, at least in this country. talk to any bow hunter about a shoot through rig, and the first thing they'll say is you might cut your rig, loading your bow. manufacturers don't want to deal with that type of paranoia from the largest portion of their consumers.
manufacturing costs are higher because of the added machine time and that means higher retail for something that has to explained to a consumer that isn't necessarily ready to hear it or pay for it, yet.
in short, they are still considered an exclusive bow design.
part of the reason you don't see them in the winner's circle is because of this. the pros,...although they want to win,.... are also obligated to shoot what most everybody will be able to buy from their local shop. if the market was flush enough that the cost of an OK was within reach of everybody, you'd probably see them there, more often. bottom line,....conventional bows are expensive enough, as it is, pushing a deliberately higher priced bow, might stagnate a portion of the market....the last thing a bow manufacturer wants to do.
if you don't think a shoot through bow shoots better than a conventional bow, go ask anyone who has one.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I see an advantage at least in getting them set up quickly, and being able to change that set up from a skinny outdoor arrow to indoor fatties.
I do however feel that a bow with conventional cables CAN be tuned to shoot just as well.
That doesn't eliminate the benefit of a shoot through system, it just means there will be more work setting up a bow without a shoot through system, and more work if/when you change arrows.
I'll be looking very hard at the new binary shoot thru system Strother has been working on when it finally hits the shelves, but I don't expect to gain a single X because of it... Other than because I can spend more time shooting than tuning.


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## too (Nov 12, 2014)

critical tuning on shoot thru systems depends on the cables - 
Your shooting off strings - 
Your OK bow is only as good as the threads you put on it - 
If cable #1 does not match cable #2 100% 
If cable #3 stretches more that #1 , #2 or #4 your gonna have problems 
The system is only as stable as the threads holding it together - 
The advantages are obvious - the disadvantages steer to rear their ugly heads at the wrong place and time -


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Mahly said:


> I see an advantage at least in getting them set up quickly, and being able to change that set up from a skinny outdoor arrow to indoor fatties.
> I do however feel that a bow with conventional cables CAN be tuned to shoot just as well.
> That doesn't eliminate the benefit of a shoot through system, it just means there will be more work setting up a bow without a shoot through system, and more work if/when you change arrows.
> I'll be looking very hard at the new binary shoot thru system Strother has been working on when it finally hits the shelves, but I don't expect to gain a single X because of it... Other than because I can spend more time shooting than tuning.


This kinda reminds me of the "should i shoot a blade or prong" type of thread. Since so many people really cant shoot better with a blade, it sounds like a shoot thru system would equally not really be a noticeable positive to the average shooter i.e ME. 

So how "good" does a shooter need to be before going to the next level, shoot thru, blades to actually notice a difference? I guess i should be practicing instead of typing.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

dbow said:


> This kinda reminds me of the "should i shoot a blade or prong" type of thread. Since so many people really cant shoot better with a blade, it sounds like a shoot thru system would equally not really be a noticeable positive to the average shooter i.e ME.
> 
> So how "good" does a shooter need to be before going to the next level, shoot thru, blades to actually notice a difference? I guess i should be practicing instead of typing.


How good do you have to get? In the spot world, if you miss a couple of centers your gone.. 
The arrow landing in the center/middle of the target is based on what the shooter knows and what the shooter does.
Bow geometry is a preference for the shooter.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

dbow said:


> This kinda reminds me of the "should i shoot a blade or prong" type of thread. Since so many people really cant shoot better with a blade, it sounds like a shoot thru system would equally not really be a noticeable positive to the average shooter i.e ME.
> 
> So how "good" does a shooter need to be before going to the next level, shoot thru, blades to actually notice a difference? I guess i should be practicing instead of typing.


I don't think it's a matter of how much better do you have to be before a shoot thru bow helps you shoot even better.
The fact is, a non shoot thru can shoot better than any man could. We don't see many (if any) in World Cup, we don't see them winning vegas, etc. etc.
They have sound theory, and physics behind them, but it doesn't translate into higher scores.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Lot is about sponsorship money several manufacturers require stock setups. Jessie Broadwater got hoyt to add are rod to the rig


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

what is the "are rod"? Do you mean Air Shox?


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Mahly said:


> ...The fact is, a non shoot thru can shoot better than any man could. We don't see many (if any) in World Cup, we don't see them winning vegas, etc. etc.
> They have sound theory, and physics behind them, but it doesn't translate into higher scores.


That's exactly my point. Why would I pay more / again for a new bow, or go to all the trouble of setting up a shoot through string system if my scores won't be higher??

I do currently feel like I would pay good money for an easy to tune bow, though. I have two very different bows at the moment: Hoyt PCE 2013 and PSE Supra ME (2012). I have spent hours to tune the Hoyt and cannot get a bullet hole through paper, or bare shafts to hit with fletched at 20y (with carbon arrows - I seem to be doing better with 2315 X7s and can get bare and fletched to hit Vegas baby X at 15y). Despite the tuning issues the bow does pound the X if I do my bit. With the Supra, it took (literally) less than 10 shots to get it shooting perfect bullet holes and shooting 8-10" groups at 100y (and if I really do my part, 2-4" groups at 100y).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Historical starts and equipment of the day did not get the shoot through system or shoot riser off the ground all that well. If anything Martin got the shoot through system off the ground, but so little understood it and their shoot through system was available up until a few years ago, 2008 or 2009. 
Furious X System was available in 2008. I was then working for a Martin/Pearson dealer and one of Martin's Staff shooters was to set me up with one.

Still, target was one venue and 3D another and the shoot through system was not fast.

Of note; Back then Martin had state of the art "build your bow", computer imaginary thing, and see it, color and all.

Like some have noted, it's the Indian. Wheel or Cam lean or both, so much BS. One of my accurate bows was atrocious with both wheel and cam lean and a floating yoke. It's old, a 2000 model Hoyt UltraTec, the only bow that hangs on my wall out of respect. All the quad limbs have splintered off on the corners and is in need of new strings. It still has the first run of FUSE strings on it. They came black and "Try these, Sonny, we think you will like them." I get it out from time to time. It is as accurate and as fast as it ever was. 62 pounds, 29", shot off the string (no dang d-loop), QuikTune 3000 prong arrow rest and only Limb Savers bolted on the limbs.
Arrow; CXL 250, CXL nock, CXL insert and 75 gr field point. 3 for 35, 5 for 60 and 3 in the black dot, 80 speaks for it's self.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/album.php?albumid=15107&attachmentid=1983021


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I always hate saying some like, "so many people didn't understand it", but the fact is exactly that.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> I always hate saying some like, "so many people didn't understand it", but the fact is exactly that.


Understanding it or why fix something that isn't broke? The other part about bow history, worked then, works now is the road block. Terry Ragsdale and his accomplishments and people winning with a otherwise plain bow. Yes, shoot through risers are seen and more of them, but usually in the hands of top racked shooters. Not many who shoot through risers reach the podium in 3D. Highlighting 3D for that of around 15 years are Jeff Hopkins and Levi Morgan collecting the vast number of SOY awards with otherwise plain bows. Shoot through risers seem to stand out at Vegas, but 300 scores are relatively the same across the board from 2003 to date - Men's Unlimited Championship. 

Forget cost. The expensive carbon bow took off $1500 to start. Mathews with the expensive Safari took off, lower, but off the ground at $2500. The shoot through system will not "take off" until some Pro (s) puts it in the lime light and does so dazzlingly.

OK Archery is trying, but in the wrong hands I believe. Hunting, whitetail deer hunting has a long record and a average kill range acquired of only 19 yards and this with the speed bows of recent and present times. One over in General Discussion gave a good write up of the shoot riser, shoot through system, but combined with his opinion of hunting and colored bows and strings it didn't wind my clock. 
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2356774&page=2


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> Understanding it or why fix something that isn't broke? The other part about bow history, worked then, works now is the road block. Terry Ragsdale and his accomplishments and people winning with a otherwise plain bow. Yes, shoot through risers are seen and more of them, but usually in the hands of top racked shooters. Not many who shoot through risers reach the podium in 3D. Highlighting 3D for that of around 15 years are Jeff Hopkins and Levi Morgan collecting the vast number of SOY awards with otherwise plain bows. Shoot through risers seem to stand out at Vegas, but 300 scores are relatively the same across the board from 2003 to date - Men's Unlimited Championship.
> 
> Forget cost. The expensive carbon bow took off $1500 to start. Mathews with the expensive Safari took off, lower, but off the ground at $2500. The shoot through system will not "take off" until some Pro (s) puts it in the lime light and does so dazzlingly.
> 
> ...


Dandy Danny McCarthy won a SOY shooting a Hoyt Shoot through. 

Any Hoyt wins since 04 or so in 3D have all been with Shoot Through bows. 

Any PSE wins the last few years in 3D have been with Shoot Throughs.

True, no SOY wins except for the 1 McCarthy year, but they do make podiums with them.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Exception noted and agreed in part. Still, the shoot through system hasn't made inroads for all claimed of it is my point. And not that I wouldn't have or own one. I just have never seen the need. 

Note; A bow with a shoot through riser along with the shoot through system is not hard to learn to "load" and that's the only I can describe it, "load." Speed is not really a issue. Using my Hoyt ProElite I've cleaned the 4 arrow 1 minute speed end of the ASA Indoor DAIR more than a few times. I doubt the through system would slow me down, even with a shoot through riser. Awkward for only the time to learn to do it.


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