# NFAA Nationals Yankton SD



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Just got an email from our state Director that said that the Nationals would be a flat three day shoot instead of 3/5 because of all the other events taking place there that week.... Kind of ambivalent about that one....:


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> Just got an email from our state Director that said that the Nationals would be a flat three day shoot instead of 3/5 because of all the other events taking place there that week.... Kind of ambivalent about that one....:


Gus, there will be ranges open for those that will want to shoot practice as I've been told.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

However, the big issue is that the three days of the NFAA national championship will be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Whereas the council does have the authority to do this, it violates the long standing spirit of the national championship and the 5/3 Wednesday-Sunday format voted in by the directors.

One of the reasons for the 5/3 W-S was for members wanting to shoot the nationals on weekend only.

And now we have a M-W schedule set by a president and puppet council as a result of pressure by Easton and USAA archery (NAA) or collusion therewith or both.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

May the Revolution begin................


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

The Mon-Wed only format will likely hurt attendance for Nationals, but may help the other shoots. Did NFAA draw short straw or something?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Say it ain't so Joe?!? Say it ain't so!!!

Please tell me this isn't official and is just some vicious rumor.

I can't understand WHY the NFAA would host the OUTDOOR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP at it's home office just to tell us all that we (and by association it) aren't as important as some other organizations shoot. The PRIORITY is supposed to be the NFAA Outdoor Nationals since it is at OUR National Office, on OUR ranges.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

The big thing I want to know if the revenues from these other shoots go into NFAA or WAF....that will pretty much tell the tale.....


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

According to the NFAA website in the words of Lily Von Schtoop. "It's Twue, it's twue!!"


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Better get used to the new mecca of Bruce!!!!


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

All I have to say is.....this Sucks....


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Yeah, well, we FITA field people aren't jumping up and down with joy either. I hope the grounds management takes the time to fill in the holes out on the field courses. At least cut down the grass so we can see where the holes are.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

*4 events*



rpdjr45 said:


> Yeah, well, we FITA field people aren't jumping up and down with joy either. I hope the grounds management takes the time to fill in the holes out on the field courses. At least cut down the grass so we can see where the holes are.


Would that be yardage marker holes? We just hope they get them all back right. :darkbeer: 

Imagine both organizations are having to jump thru hoops to have 4 large events within 10 days in one location. With the overlaps on the 27th, will some folks shoot in three events in one day? How many arrows is that? Someone needs to explain this in simple terms on down the road.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

TNMAN said:


> Would that be yardage marker holes? We just hope they get them all back right. :darkbeer:
> 
> Imagine both organizations are having to jump thru hoops to have 4 large events within 10 days in one location. With the overlaps on the 27th, will some folks shoot in three events in one day? How many arrows is that? Someone needs to explain this in simple terms on down the road.


 I hope that is forth coming. I'm waiting patiently before I totally blow a gasket. Of course, the council and the king are more secretive than the CIA.....


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

Bruce an Mike, sitting in a tree...screwing up every thing .... just wait and see...


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

27th overlap day will probably be the official day of practice for the NAA Natl, so no need to worry about having to try shooting multiple events on the same day. Just guessing, but sounds like the NAA Field will run Fri-Sun (practice, unmarked round, marked round), NFAA Field Mon-Wed (field?, hunter?, animal?), and wrap up with the NAA Natl Wed-Fri for adult divisions (Wed=official practice, 1/2 FITA, 1/2 FITA) and the Open event on Sat (top 128 or 64 ranked from NAA Natl, cut to final 4 or 8) and Sun (semi-finals and finals or just finals). Just guessing, but that does make it feasible to shoot all 3 events (US Open event is basically the shoot-down elimination round for those who participated in the NAA Natl).

While I would rather have the opportunity to shoot a 5-day NFAA and the NAA Natls separately, this format will provide the opportunity to do alot of shooting in a variety of venues. Besides, while I prefer a 5-day NFAA Natls it is SD and summer.....3 days may be suffice with everything else going on .

>>------>


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

nock tune said:


> Bruce an Mike, sitting in a tree...screwing up every thing .... just wait and see...


Now, that was funny!


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

spoon13 said:


> say it ain't so joe?!? Say it ain't so!!!
> 
> Please tell me this isn't official and is just some vicious rumor.
> 
> *i can't understand why the nfaa would host the outdoor national championship at it's home office just to tell us all that we (and by association it) aren't as important as some other organizations shoot. * the priority is supposed to be the nfaa outdoor nationals since it is at our national office, on our ranges.



*I can........sadly......

Take your money and support your local clubs instead.....they truely care about you......*

.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

Love the game, Hate the puppet masters.:angry1:

i can find another, more useful way to spend the $60 again this year. shooting as a guest isnt so bad as long as you request to be grouped with your class.

what bums me out is that by not agreeing to be manipulated by the national office, my state suffers.

:set1_thinking:maybe i can use that $60 as a 'charitable cash contribution' :idea1:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

See you guys in Mechanicsburg in 2012 unless they screw that one up too.
Jbird


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

*Tea Party Anyone??????????? *

.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Darn! And I just paid my NFAA dues for 2011...for the 43rd time! I think they need to re-name the organization to the EASTON FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION, or BRUCE'S FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION...because it it getting ridiculous that the MEMBERSHIP of this organization, and the DIRECTORS that the MEMBERSHIP elects...have NOTHING to say about anything anymore!

It is bad enough when SOME State Associations don't honor or follow the wishes of the MEMBERSHIP and go out on it alone and by dictatorship...but now the NATIONAL organization is letting outside businesses run things and to heck with the MEMBERSHIP and DIRECTORS.....why have either, then?

This is positive and absolute BS....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

field14 said:


> Darn! And I just paid my NFAA dues for 2011...for the 43rd time! I think they need to re-name the organization to the EASTON FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION, or BRUCE'S FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION...because it it getting ridiculous that the MEMBERSHIP of this organization, and the DIRECTORS that the MEMBERSHIP elects...have NOTHING to say about anything anymore!
> 
> It is bad enough when SOME State Associations don't honor or follow the wishes of the MEMBERSHIP and go out on it alone and by dictatorship...but now the NATIONAL organization is letting outside businesses run things and to heck with the MEMBERSHIP and DIRECTORS*.....why have either, then?*
> This is positive and absolute BS....
> ...


interesting statement Field......

(for all) : who or what is the actual host..?? does the WAF have the entitlement to be the host of all or any of the events at yankton ? 

hmmmmmmmm...... maybe just another building block to the future disbannment or fallout of the nfaa..??


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## Shrek XT3000 (Apr 19, 2005)

Good to know these things. Looks like I don't need to pay dues for 2011.

Shrek


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

So I still dont understand why they're messing with our 5 day Nationals...Do we not have enough ranges for people that still want to shoot 5 days and dont care about shooting the other venues??? Are the other venues taking over our NFAA ranges...oh' I forgot...maybe they are not our ranges and are Bruces ranges...


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

I would wish with them cutting back to just three days (and the decreased cost, with fewer ranges to set up and fewer targets needed) that they would REDUCE the registration fee.

And I already made my Hotel reservation for the full week!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

this whole thing just makes my head spin. One part of me wants to think they are trying to put something together here to benefit archery by having all of this together at one time, and part of me wonders if it's just part of the master plan to totally eliminate the NFAA and then it will be all WAF with Bruce at the head for life, calling all the shots, and filling his pockets at will????? Sometimes I just don't know...But I can say one thing for sure, I definitely understand them wanting to draw more people when the attendance in Yankton is probably less than half what it is at Mechanicsubrg, but I can see where this is going to really alienate a lot of people. I figure they day is coming soon when someone actually takes a swing at Bruce....


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

i listed a ton of officer responsibilities that go ignored and become derelict. i guess nobody wants to hold their feet to the fire :noidea:

loss of membership clubs and funds will get to them sooner or later.

can we say george orwell's "animal farm"?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Paul Payne said:


> So I still dont understand why they're messing with our 5 day Nationals...Do we not have enough ranges for people that still want to shoot 5 days and dont care about shooting the other venues??? Are the other venues taking over our NFAA ranges...oh' I forgot...maybe they are not our ranges and are Bruces ranges...


ALL of the NFAA/WAF tournaments are/have been on weekENDS..>Friday-Sunday....until now. It is, afterall the NFAA NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS, isn't it? Then why does the NFAA MEMBERSHIP have to suffer hind-tit on this, and absorb the change to Monday-Wed? Why can't the NAA, who is sorta "borrowing" the NFAA site...have THEIRS start on SUNDAY or MONDAY...and end on THURSDAY...so the NFAA maintains their Friday-Sunday format?

I don't have a problem with a 3-day Nationals, even tho I haven't attended in a long, long time, but I sure do have a problem with MONDAY-WEDNESDAY for the NFAA National Outdoor.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

field14 said:


> Darn! And I just paid my NFAA dues for 2011...for the 43rd time! I think they need to re-name the organization to the EASTON FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION, or BRUCE'S FIELD ARCHERY ASSOCIATION...because it it getting ridiculous that the MEMBERSHIP of this organization, and the DIRECTORS that the MEMBERSHIP elects...have NOTHING to say about anything anymore!
> 
> It is bad enough when SOME State Associations don't honor or follow the wishes of the MEMBERSHIP and go out on it alone and by dictatorship...but now the NATIONAL organization is letting outside businesses run things and to heck with the MEMBERSHIP and DIRECTORS.....why have either, then?
> 
> ...


Tom,
They won't get my money this year...I am through. Even though I hardly shoot nowadays...I try to support Field archery by continuing to pay my dues. However, the folks who run this organization are so 'out of touch' with their membership a message needs to be sent. I find the only way to get anyone's attention is to hit 'em in the wallet.

Jerry


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Guess I'll call Mechanicsburg Sometime and see if they are going to have another insteada this summer. like last summer.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Tom,
> They won't get my money this year...I am through. Even though I hardly shoot nowadays...I try to support Field archery by continuing to pay my dues. However, the folks who run this organization are so 'out of touch' with their membership a message needs to be sent. I find the only way to get anyone's attention is to hit 'em in the wallet.
> 
> Jerry


Money talks. However, if the NFAA membership just up and doesn't show up, then the "excuse" is there for the full takeover, which could be playing right into the hands of the other organizations. However, it is into a lose/lose situation...If we show up, then that is the word that it is now OK for NFAA to "be left for last" and that the members will accept this way of business. If we don't show up, then that is lose/lose too, cuz then we LOSE out on a tournament, and then we lose out to the "other" organizations on a take-over due to loss of "involvement and interest" on behalf the the NFAA membership. Basically, I guess we are caught between the rock and the hard spot for 2011.
The other "outside organizations" out of the scope of target shooting are probably also enjoying this, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

without subjects, there is no king.

it's looking like the only way to slay the beast is to kill it's life support system. 

atleast we have the basic games we all love to shoot on paper so we can continue shooting them as 'free agents'.


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## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

*3 days sucks*

We were gona go but now I think not! Bruce cull can SUCK IT!!!!


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

The new ranges @ Yanton are not all that exciting to shoot, flat, plain, windy and all walkbacks.The attendents there suffers because of this.The attendents for there Atlantic City, make beleive shoot, that they took away from us for some bogus shoot outside in the wind was low, count the numbers compaired to AC. So there answer to this is have alot of shoots together and maybe they will get shooters to show up here. And in turn the field shooters are made to suffer.So in my opinion having other than a 5 day monday to friday shoot is a waste of time and money for the avid field shooter. Thats been proven in fact that the 3-5 day over the weekend draws no extra shooters, count the attendents , there are less shooters on the weekend. It also takes away the thrill of the final day shooting on the animals, that now with the dots makes a difference. Plus the fact that traveling on the weekends to and from, makes more sense to those of us that still have to work. This is the way I see it working best for all, fly in sat or sun, practise, shoot mon to fri, fri nite hang out and celebrate with the winners and freinds, fly home over the weekend in time for work on monday, well rested. Thats the way the creators of the Nationals would want it. Cater to those of us that show up to shoot the Nationals not those they wish would. When is some one going to ask us that show up to shoot what we want . Take a vote at the shoot an see what the shooters that show up would like to see happen, not what our non shooting officals want.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

It's no secret that Bruce has wanted a three day nationals for a long time. he conveniently found a way to do it. I can't believe that our council sold us out for a pat on the head from the king and getting to eat the scraps from his table....... I was wrong about alienating a lot of people.......heck, only less than 10% of our membership really participate in the nationals, and only a few will complain,, so to them, I guess that's hardly a blip on the radar screen. I'm all for a Three day non national shoot at Mechanicsburg too.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

I'm primarily a FITA field shooter, and the arguments presented here by NFAA members were/are the same being made by the FITA field shooters. I know two states for sure put in bids for the FITA Field, I (Arizona) was one of them, and Texas was the other, and maybe, but I could not confirm it, California. I don't mind losing the bid, that was always a possibility, but what got me was that Yankton did not bid, but powers that are in both NFAA and USAA/NAA and Easton (in my opinion) decided to put it all in one place. Seems like a good idea, and pershaps it would have been if it were a location that was more accessable, or at least stretched out over a longer period. Seems to be a rush job and rushed jobs are poorly done. I'll be there for the FITA field, but I'm not going to spend another $900.00 for motel, etc. just to cram in another field shoot. For that kind of mone I'd rather take the rental car up to Cody, and Mount Rushmore and make a decent trip of it, which is exactly what I am going to do.
What I do not understand is how NFAA can have 50 state directors and they only meet every other year? And their recommendations are subject to veto? Well, I do exactly what some have suggested: I support my local and state NFAA organizations and keep it local. 

Oh, and the holes I was referring to are not the marker holes, but big holes where tree trunks have been removed, so I am told.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Think I'll stay home and shoot in a State trap shoot and try to win an $18,000 Kreigoff, or maybe go to IL for the Grand for a chance at $100,000. I'll never be able to come home with that much at any Nationals shoot.


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## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

*Hell yea!!!*



Unclegus said:


> It's no secret that Bruce has wanted a three day nationals for a long time. he conveniently found a way to do it. I can't believe that our council sold us out for a pat on the head from the king and getting to eat the scraps from his table....... I was wrong about alienating a lot of people.......heck, only less than 10% of our membership really participate in the nationals, and only a few will complain,, so to them, I guess that's hardly a blip on the radar screen. I'm all for a Three day non national shoot at Mechanicsburg too.


I would rather go shoot with them anyway, Ive never been to Yankton but Iam sure its nowhere close to the quality of ranges at MECHINSBURG PA!


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

After shooting the Classic there last year, prolly 80% of the people we talked to would not go back for anything. Middle of nowhere, and the most excitment in town are the go carts!! You won't find any courses better than the ones in Mechanicsburg!!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

rpdjr45 said:


> I'm primarily a FITA field shooter, and the arguments presented here by NFAA members were/are the same being made by the FITA field shooters. I know two states for sure put in bids for the FITA Field, I (Arizona) was one of them, and Texas was the other, and maybe, but I could not confirm it, California. I don't mind losing the bid, that was always a possibility, but what got me was that Yankton did not bid, but powers that are in both NFAA and USAA/NAA and Easton (in my opinion) decided to put it all in one place. Seems like a good idea, and pershaps it would have been if it were a location that was more accessable, or at least stretched out over a longer period. Seems to be a rush job and rushed jobs are poorly done. I'll be there for the FITA field, but I'm not going to spend another $900.00 for motel, etc. just to cram in another field shoot. For that kind of mone I'd rather take the rental car up to Cody, and Mount Rushmore and make a decent trip of it, which is exactly what I am going to do.
> What I do not understand is how NFAA can have 50 state directors and they only meet every other year? And their recommendations are subject to veto? Well, I do exactly what some have suggested: I support my local and state NFAA organizations and keep it local.
> 
> Oh, and the holes I was referring to are not the marker holes, but big holes where tree trunks have been removed, so I am told.


Because everything is done inthe NFAA the same way that health care got psueh down our throats, only it's the council and not the directors who have the power. EVERY empire sooner or later falls......


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

SUPPOSE THEY GAVE A PARTY, AND NO ONE CAME????????:mg:


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## Triangle FS (Dec 28, 2009)

This is sad to hear. A few of us were planning to go. But after hearing this I am not driving that distance for a 3 day national outdoor. 5 day for me.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*NFAA, Yankton, Brucie, Etc.*

I could see the writing on the wall when the NFAA accepted Easton as a partner in the shooting center in Yankton. After shooting one Nationals in Yankton we decided our entertainment money could be spent in any number of better places. We, like many others, won't return to Yankton. It has been obvious that Field Archery is no longer
a priority for the people pulling the strings in the NFAA. We can only hope that they don't do anything to screw up Mechanicsburg 2012. That may be our last Nationals. For Field Archery to survive it will probably be necessary for us to separate ourselves from this nonsense and build a new framework to host the Nationals. This would require 
fresh leadership and a large group of committed members, all of which are in short supply.

Jbird


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I couldn't have said it better myself, Bird, The only part I disagree with is that instead of pulling away, we need to replace the members of the council that are the yes men. We do have the power to do this, but like you say, Fresh leadership and commitment is in short supply.


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

*""If we build it....they will come""........​**Let's see what the "Yantonites" say or do after investing so much money and land into Bruce's Archery Empire to see little or no return on their investment......

Ahhhhhhh....... anybody got that writeup from the Yankton paper with Bruce telling them how many archers would be flocking there and how much revenue they would be receiving once everything was built???*

.


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Unclegus said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself, Bird, The only part I disagree with is that instead of pulling away, we need to replace the members of the council that are the yes men. We do have the power to do this, but like you say, Fresh leadership and commitment is in short supply.


*Like I said GUS.......Tea Party anyone?.....but many we need to make it a "Beer Party"....you know....with a little more gustoooooooo....:grin:*
.


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

Bees said:


> Guess I'll call Mechanicsburg Sometime and see if they are going to have another insteada this summer. like last summer.


That would be Lancaster Archery Club, Bees! Oh yeah, if you had went last year, you would have known that!


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

They are planning on it again this year, last I heard? We will be there AGAIN!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Do you see it? Yes, we are bad-mouthing the 2011 Archery Tournament week. Yes we are bad-mouthing the bit "E's" involvement in the NFAA National Headquarters and Range. Yes, we are bad-mouthing the council, and on and on and on.

But...have you even stopped a second to see something NEW and something POSITIVE that IS taking place here? Of course you haven't, because all of us, me included can't see the forest for the trees here. We have been griping, peeing and moaning for years and years and years about WHY the "target organizations" can't get together and try to work something out to be TOGETHER!!! So, the first time it is tried, we are already wanting "first dibs" on the scheduling, griping about TOO MANY ARROWS, griping about the LOCATION and on and on and on.

Yet, we FINALLY have the NAA and the NFAA together on something and at least TRYING to work something out to make an archery week to remember, and all in ONE PLACE. I don't like the NFAA having to shoot their Nationals on Monday-Wed one bit either, but after thinking about this, SOMEBODY had to be on Mon-Wed in order to make the schedule work.

Times have changed and us old birds that want the "5-day Nationals" cuz that is the way we grew up with it, had better get over it! The 3-day National Outdoor WILL BE A REALITY. Doesn't make sense to do the 5-day only format anymore. People have better things to do with their time and money rather than spend 5 solid days on the archery range. People are in a hurry, don't want to work that hard for that long, and on and on.

So, the NFAA/WAF/NAA/Easton work on this upcoming 2011 thing to actually, for the first time in my memory to have Two Target Associations attempt to work together and schedule NATIONAL EVENTS...note the PLURAL..EVENTS....in the same place during the same week and all they get is snotty things from the old school about how BAD this is?

You can bet that the NAA old school is thinking the same thing we old-school NFAA "fieldies" are, too! It is as plain as the nose on your face....ANY attempt to UNIFY and come to common ground on ANYTHING in archery is met with more resistance than acceptance! People resist change; it is natural, but archery people resist change way more than the "common human."

Again, NO, I don't like the Mon-Wed 3-day Outdoor NFAA Nationals, but again, one of the events HAD to be on Mon-Wed to make the schedule work. I would, if I was going, have preferred Friday-Sunday for the NFAA rounds to be shot, but apparently it won't happen that way.

Just another case of "we want "first dibs" and if we don't get it, We'll take our ball and go crying home."

The non-target organizations are eating this up...because the "target types" are tearing themselves apart from within and playing right into their hands of self-destructing.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I’m obviously very new to this sport and as such have had little exposure to the political churnings many are now complaining of regarding the NFAA. I have never been to a shoot (except Nationals or some Regionals) that could boast a participation level above a couple hundred shooters, but I don’t doubt it once occurred, especially after archery made such a big splash at the Olympics in the 70s. But times they do change and no one can really expect a sport such as archery to maintain such a high level of participation when it has to compete with crowd-enticing sports such as Nascar, professional golf, and Sunday Night Football. 


As a new archer, what I really don’t like to see and hear is the constant grumbling and negativity from those who have been towing the line for all these years--about how things are being done now and how they are tired of having to do all of the work and how so and so is destroying the sport. I understand how thankless a job it can be at times, PROmoting this sport with little thanks and, at times, even less appreciation, but imagine the impact of such strife to those of us who are trying to enjoy this sport and learn how to become more active in our local, regional, and national organizations. 

I am an active member, I hold office at the local level, I help with teaching classes to beginners, and I sweat and sometimes bleed during various work parties, and I am not the only newbie who is trying to ease some of the “burden” of those who have laid down the trail before me. But rather than sit around the camp fire bemoaning how archery participation is declining, or how the actions of the leadership is running counter to the goals of the organization, or in some cases threatening to jump ship all together, can we not find some means of fostering workable change by interacting with the local or regional directors without just putting them down, by putting us newbies to work in a manner that would help you grow the sport, and by leading those of us coming up the ranks by your continued positive example?

Okay, off my soapbox….


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## PTH (Dec 30, 2004)

field14 said:


> Do you see it? Yes, we are bad-mouthing the 2011 Archery Tournament week. Yes we are bad-mouthing the bit "E's" involvement in the NFAA National Headquarters and Range. Yes, we are bad-mouthing the council, and on and on and on.
> 
> But...have you even stopped a second to see something NEW and something POSITIVE that IS taking place here? Of course you haven't, because all of us, me included can't see the forest for the trees here. We have been griping, peeing and moaning for years and years and years about WHY the "target organizations" can't get together and try to work something out to be TOGETHER!!! So, the first time it is tried, we are already wanting "first dibs" on the scheduling, griping about TOO MANY ARROWS, griping about the LOCATION and on and on and on.
> 
> ...


Well put! It's not perfect, but it is an attempt to get target organizations somewhat on the same page! We may have outlived the need for 2 "mulligan" days on Outdoor Nationals anyway!


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

field14 said:


> Do you see it? Yes, we are bad-mouthing the 2011 Archery Tournament week. Yes we are bad-mouthing the bit "E's" involvement in the NFAA National Headquarters and Range. Yes, we are bad-mouthing the council, and on and on and on.
> 
> But...have you even stopped a second to see something NEW and something POSITIVE that IS taking place here? Of course you haven't, because all of us, me included can't see the forest for the trees here. We have been griping, peeing and moaning for years and years and years about WHY the "target organizations" can't get together and try to work something out to be TOGETHER!!! So, the first time it is tried, we are already wanting "first dibs" on the scheduling, griping about TOO MANY ARROWS, griping about the LOCATION and on and on and on.
> 
> ...


I'm picking up what you're laying down. I understand what you are saying. I actually thought it was gonna be a GREAT thing for the sport of target archery. Having both the NFAA and the NAA Nationals held in one place. It would allow both side to see what the "other" side is doing. I believe it was gonna be a logistical nightmare, but hey, give it a shot.

THE problem I have is not the "what", it's the "how" and "why". The ORIGINAL schedule showed that the NFAA Nationals was gonna be Mon-Fri. I understand that with both events going on that ranges were gonna be slim and times were gonna be tight trying to accommodate both. My biggest issue is that the events are hosted at our (NFAA) headquarters on our (NFAA) ranges, yet our (NFAA) event is shown as the least important. Look at the World Series. When the American League team hosts the games they use the DH. In National League ballparks, the pitcher has to hit. Now if Bruce was making the sacrifice in order to improve relations with the NAA in hopes of some future reciprocal agreement, why not say so. A little communication could go a LONG way here. If the goal was to allow the NAA to host one of our (NFAA) Nationals at one it it's ranges in 2 or 3 years and we would then gain the preferred shooting times, how hard is it to say that??

My next issue is that it appears that a couple of locations submitted bids in a timely manner to host the NAA Nationals. Yankton did not. The process has been circumvented. I don't care whose process it is, it is there for a reason. If the NFAA wanted to host a combined event, GREAT!!!! Submit a bid in the proper form and by the established deadline. 

Given the grumbling from both sides of this "event", I don't think it will be as popular as it could have been. I see an opportunity lost. What could have been probably won't be and may never have the opportunity to be again. I truly hope I'm wrong on that count, but only time will tell.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

I think the issue nawing at people is not what was done, but how it was done. FITA/ USAA did not consult their archer's committee. USAA had at least two bids, if not three for the nationals, so there was no issue of not having a host site. The NFAA has an army of directors that does not seem to be considered and so it is, like it or not, more efficient to make decisions with fewer people involved. I don't know if the NFAA had put out for bids the 2011 nationals. I don't think the level of disapproval on this board would be so high if the plan to host a united nationals in archery were held in a better location. Which brings us to the reasonable question: why Yankton? Here in Arizona, forty miles apart, are the Ben Avery Archery Range, and the Usery Mountain Archery Range, and both could easily handle the set up of a FITA field, and NFAA field, and both have a 900 round or flat range for the full FITA (90,70,50,30). Inbetween these ranges is Sky Harbor International Airport, and freeway access just out side of the airport. Being the capital city, hotels and motels for every budget, entertainment, and every style of food you can desire. I conclude that the idea of the mixing of the two organizations for their respective nationals is not the core problem, and I think we should play it out and see it works. However, if you haven't booked a motel yet, you're probably out of luck, period. The nearest airport is over a hundred miles away, and the number of rental cars there will be limited, very limited, because they plan only for their normal needs. So the source of the rub and blister is not what was done, but how the matter was handled and decided and why Yankton was selected.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

The NFAA Outdoor National dates may be well positioned to attract USAA/NAA field folks to shoot the NFAA instead of sitting around for 3 days waiting on the USAA Target to start. Discounted registration fees for shooting more than one event would help this work. A chance to shoot against world class pros for a car or money is not much incentive for NFAA Joes to shoot the USAA Target Championship and stay until Saturday.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Perhaps FIELD14 has some merit in the fact that you have two Major archery orgs trying to work on archery together....... I have tried to be as open minded and read this entire thread without jumping to any conclusions one way or the other....

However.... does it look like either or both of these archery orgs got together and worked for the benefit of the membership..... or does it look like something different

I myself can't help but see this as what it is..... both orgs are closely tied or at the least rely heavily upon ONE other company for support or funding, and as history has proven, the outside org is fearless when it comes to getting what it wants out of archery or the orgs it supports/owns/controls. 

I have heard of the ole saying.... don't put all your eggs into one basket..... well it appears that is exactly what organized archery has done in the USA.....all 3 of the big archery orgs rely heavily upon which outside agency????

I myself do not see a very good long term existence for organized archery.... it appears that the nfaa has been shifting itself for failure purposely for awhile now, so that it can fully operate as the WAF and no longer have the wrong method of operation or ownership.... yes, the current state of the NFAA and its structure does nothing to serve the membership, its run on a archaic direction of rules and order, no way can you get 50 different people representing their own states to agree on whats best for the whole...because simply whats best for the whole may not be whats best for your membership and state you represent.... so I fully think a change is due and in order..... but not the way change has come about and coming about. 

Next.... with all the eggs in one basket..... what is going to happen when the primary donor/giver/controller dies off??? Will the next generation of money men feel the same way about archery as daddy rabbit???? Or will corporate greed kick in and dump the archery money pit and leave it hanging with a building and campground that that 99% of archers could really care less about in the first place???? Where will the real leadership come from then, because as of late, the past decade or more, the leadership has pretty much done what the money tree has wanted.... so when there is no more money tree, how will the leadership in place deal with having to go back out and actually take one step at a time to build and sustain a viable membership and small stream of money....vs the carrot that has been always dangled before????

I for one like archery orgs working with each other for the benefit of all archers..... but I would think the first steps of that might come in some sort of common arrow size restrictions, dress codes, limit of draw weights, limit of fps, cross promotion of each others orgs, or club and membership development drives.... there are so many things that orgs could work on together that would show a already leary membership something of common concern vs the setting of national events clearly not following protocol ... if there were indeed bids from NAA clubs and ignored... why wasn't this discussed with the NFAA DIRECTORS......

I think no matter what org or company or anything else that governs clubs, people, business..... change is something that must take place in order to stay current ..... and more importantly, I think donors/sponsors will always be key to the success of such orgs.... but there needs to be some seperation between donor/sponsor and the TOTAL governing of the orgs that receive funds.....

Just more writing on the wall.... WAF does not operate on membership, it is controlled by a few key people..... yet, the WAF can/will/does operate the largest tourneys without needing a membership base.....and the membership base has become way too big to control therefore they have become part of the key people problem, not solution to where they want to get/go....so the best way to get to where they need to go....is to let the membership either die/quit/revolt and leave them with what they already own....NOTHING.... the nfaa owns nothing....anything worth owning is already owned by the WAF or some other NP org that has been setup and put in place without the other so called controlling orgs having any input to begin with..... 

Its amazing how the NFAA supposedly bought the WAF..... yet its the WAF who will in the end own and operate it all without the NFAA having any say so 

bye bye nfaa/naa.....hello WAF...... I guess you can say that a diamond in the rough has now been CUT and SOLD as a polished gem


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I think I will join NAA and drop my NFAA membership. I believe one can also shoot NFAA events with an NAA membership, at least it used to be that way. It will be the NAA Field championship for me this year.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Jbird said:


> See you guys in Mechanicsburg in 2012 unless they screw that one up too.
> Jbird


J, don't make reservations just yet. There is something on the USA Archery web site that says 2012 could possibly be another joint championship, and it would be in June. If anyone wants to see how all of this developed and get more info on what is going on, recommend reading thru Denise Parkers USAA blog, including links, which provides far more details and information than the NFAA has put out so far. The USAA/NAA board of directors still has to approve the plans/scheduling before this thing goes forward. The NAA normally shoot a double FITA in their national target championship and the current plan only shoots one full round, so the NFAA shooters are not the only ones sacrificing to make this happen.

Please read: http://usarchery.org/blogs/blog-for...rchery-playing-together-just-plain-crazy-talk


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Ok, I've funned about this for long enough.... I thought I'd post enough inflamatory posts to get Mikie to come on here and say what's going on. He's a lot better speaker than I am..... Apparently he's dead or under a gag order. First let me say when I first ready about what they werre trying to put together, I really thought....Damn! Bruce really hit this one out of the park. I still feel that way. Just where on God's Green earth can you go, stay in one motel, look out the window and see the range, and have the opportunity to shoot multiple tournaments of this caliber????? I understand everyone wanting to have five day nationals, but the glass isn't half empty, this sucker is running over and damn near knee deep if you just give it a chance. This idea that By God, we've always had a five day national, and By God that's the way it's going to be to me doesn't fly anymore. Even The people in India sell cows to McDonalds now instead of worshiping them.... The NFAA can change too.....If we don't we're sunk......Just remember, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I'm not saying I agree with everything that is going on, I hate tthese mysterious conclaves they have under the cover of darkness, and I wonder sometimes if Bruce just decides what he's going to do and calls the Council and says,,,, "OK" Here's what I'm going to do in case anyone asks........I'll be in Yankton. Yes, the ranges are rough, And I can't wait to get back on Crazy Horse by the river. I really liked that one. Good to see you back OBT.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2010)

Does Mechanicsburg have the 2012 NFAA Champs or not, is there anyone that can confirm this.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Sean McKenty said:


> Does Mechanicsburg have the 2012 NFAA Champs or not, is there anyone that can confirm this.


They do according to the NFAA website.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Excelent post Tom. 
We habe all our eggs in one basket because they.re the only ones with the financial stability and the desire to see organized, competative archery succeed.

Cant type worth crap on these phones


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

A little more clarification on this "union" can be read at: http://usarchery.org/blogs/blog-for...rchery-playing-together-just-plain-crazy-talk


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> Ok, I've funned about this for long enough.... I thought I'd post enough inflamatory posts to get Mikie to come on here and say what's going on. He's a lot better speaker than I am..... Apparently he's dead or under a gag order. First let me say when I first ready about what they werre trying to put together, I really thought....Damn! Bruce really hit this one out of the park. I still feel that way. Just where on God's Green earth can you go, stay in one motel, look out the window and see the range, and have the opportunity to shoot multiple tournaments of this caliber????? I understand everyone wanting to have five day nationals, but the glass isn't half empty, this sucker is running over and damn near knee deep if you just give it a chance. This idea that By God, we've always had a five day national, and By God that's the way it's going to be to me doesn't fly anymore. Even The people in India sell cows to McDonalds now instead of worshiping them.... The NFAA can change too.....If we don't we're sunk......Just remember, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I'm not saying I agree with everything that is going on, I hate tthese mysterious conclaves they have under the cover of darkness, and I wonder sometimes if Bruce just decides what he's going to do and calls the Council and says,,,, "OK" Here's what I'm going to do in case anyone asks........I'll be in Yankton. Yes, the ranges are rough, And I can't wait to get back on Crazy Horse by the river. I really liked that one. Good to see you back OBT.


Gus, no I'm not under any gag order.It has just gotten to the point that i would have to have a peeing contest with every one that posted . I figured that I would just let it come to a boil & let some of the spleens empty out. As you can see some of the old guard have been very vocal, Some of the more rationals are willing to give it a chance. Is it a mistake ? I don't know. If you have never made a mistake, you have never done any thing. We have some one here say he will spend his rec money on some thing else because he shot there once. Well that was at the lake, I wouldn't shoot it there either. He has never shot the new facility & continues to bad mouth the place. If people believe that sort of drivel , then they are the loser.
Think about it, this forum goes out to a zillion people. It is a little hard to justify to every one what goes on. By the way we are not a "puppet council". If there is any one here that has the hutzpah can say they can do as good or better than what has been accomplished in Yankton , let them step up to the plate. 
Yes there is only two motels next to hqts, but there are plenty in town. The camp ground is up & running & it is a full blown KOA. I've not been in to many towns that the people are so in tune with what goes on around it. So come on out & take a chance. Remember Columbus did.
Sean , we do have a contract for Mechanics burg in 2012.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

Mike,
You are correct in that we have only shot the old courses which you and I both thought were too rough for us and chose to skip two of the five days. My decision not to return was because I didn't like the direction Bruce was taking the NFAA and that is a whole different subject. And I might add that several of our friends shot the "new courses" and were not impressed with those either; too much out in the sun, boring flat, too many walk backs, and the same old heat and insect problems common to the area. Why anyone would choose to have a Nationals in that location when they have experienced the Nationals at Darrington, Watkins Glen, and especially Mechanicsburg is beyond me.
There is only one reason that our National "home" courses are in Yankton, and that is because that is where Bruce's home and business interests are located. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Glad to hear that Mechanicsburg is locked in for 2012. I suggest that everyone who can possibly make that shoot does so because we certainly don't know whats down the road. I used to feel sorry for myself because I didn't get in to field archery in it's hay days with 750-1000 entries at the Nationals but now I realize that "hay days" is relative. Our shoots at Watkins Glen, Darrington, and Mechanicsburg were some of the best memories we will ever have in Field shooting. It would be a shame if the new people only have Yankton to judge their experience by. You can call this progress if you like and sour grapes from the old guard, but we were there and we know the difference, don't we?
Jbird


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Mike,
> You are correct in that we have only shot the old courses which you and I both thought were to rough for us and chose to skip two of the five days. My decision not to return was because I didn't like the direction Bruce was taking the NFAA and that is a whole different subject. And I might add that several of our friends shot the "new courses" and were not impressed with those either; too much out in the sun, boring flat, too many walk backs, and the same old heat and insect problems common to the area. Why anyone would choose to have a Nationals in that location when they have experienced the Nationals at Darrington, Watkins Glen, and especially Mechanicsburg is beyond me.
> There is only one reason that our National "home" courses are in Yankton, and that is because that is where Bruce's home and business interests are located. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Glad to hear that Mechanicsburg is locked in for 2012. I suggest that everyone who can possibly make that shoot does so because we certainly don't know whats down the road. I used to feel sorry for myself because I didn't get in to field archery in it's hay days with 750-1000 entries at the Nationals but now I realize that "hay days" is relative. Our shoots at Watkins Glen, Darrington, and Mechanicsburg were some of the best memories we will ever have in Field shooting. It
> would be a shame if the new people only have Yankton to judge their experience by.
> ...


Here we go again We are in yankton because of what the town was willing to give. I don't recall your town where ever you were at the time willing to give what Yankton gave . As for holding a Nationals there when we had the experience of the other places, if not there , where ?The Glen is dead, & no one else is willing to commit. Right now we have 3 places & no others on the horizon. WE move it around so that people that can't or won't travel have a chance to shoot a National . Don't give me "well we only have one place for the indoor". They are different breed indoor shooter vs out door shooters .

Those 1000 shooters , were few & far between, check the records. 
When it comes to attendance, out door shooting was always a bust compared to what the membership was. we all thought Mechanics burg was a great attendance , well it was 4% of the members. What would you do if you only sold 4% of your inventory? You would find ways to sell more of it.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

:set1_thinking:.......:grouphug:.......:BangHead:.......:sad:......sigh!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Thanks Mike. Zip and I have had motel reservations since August. I just don't know with my health if I can shoot all of it or not.....Win, lose, or draw, someone is trying to do something different and that sure can't hurt. If I'm around I can just hear it now twenty years from now......"We've always had a three day nationals, and by God that's the way we're going to do it.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

No point in rehashing the what is and what ifs since the direction is set. If the shoot continues to rotate between Yankton, Darrington, and Mechanicsburg that would be a 
good thing. I think there is a growing fear/suspicion among the rank and file that the 
unspoken goal is make the Nationals a permanent home at Yankton. If I'm wrong then I'll
shut up. If I am right and it goes that way, I'm done. I hope I'm wrong. At any rate,
I'm done commenting.
Jbird


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Bird, I can't speak for the powers that be, but taking it away from Mechanicsburg would be a real mistake.


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

Jbird said:


> No point in rehashing the what is and what ifs since the direction is set. If the shoot continues to rotate between Yankton, Darrington, and Mechanicsburg that would be a
> good thing. I think there is a growing fear/suspicion among the rank and file that the
> unspoken goal is make the Nationals a permanent home at Yankton. If I'm wrong then I'll
> shut up. If I am right and it goes that way, I'm done. I hope I'm wrong. At any rate,
> ...


I have also heard those rumors since Yankton was bought and agree it would not be a good thing.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

mike, and all the other council members and state reps that read but rarely post.

the one thing that really burns everyone is not that it was done, it was how it was done. If someone would have spoken up and said to the members that this is what is happening&why, and we are informing everyone, i think a lot less of a stink would be made.

(the appearance of) the closed door deals and directed changes dont go over well when the backbone and rank&file are educated that this organization works from the local up, not corporate HQ down. we are always told to bring it up to our district&state leadership. how can we have a 2way discussion or even be informed of future proposals when we hear of the changes AFTER they are done?

the internet is not evil, unless you are trying to hide something or get something by. instant communication is a wonderful thing when you need direct and immediate feedback.

gone are the days when the mail system was the speedy way and we had outdoor attendance over 600.

yes, something needs to be done.......communicate better would be a fantastic start. send out feelers to the states 6months before the decision deadline. see how the responses go and base a decision from that. isnt that one of the VP's appointed duties or is that the Secretary's delegated duty?, i get confused

i too, enjoy(ed) the 'iron man' format of 5days. unfortunately the world has changed and so have people's priorities. so the 5day, 600+ nats are done. i applaud the effort to change things for the better, just not the method.


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

Most archers joined the NFAA because of Field archery.
The old guard is not complaining just making sure your all doing buisness on it's best behalf.
If only 4% of members shoot the outdoors, then only 12% shoot indoors, and thats a full house.
560 shooter for the outdoors is 5 full ranges, whats wrong with that.
No problem shooting in Yanton, but the town did'nt go after the NFAA, Bruce did.
The council really needs to work better with its members, the one that show up to shoot, take a pole and see what they want.
Change does'nt always turn out for the best, maybe thats keeping people away, to much change.
Outdoor shooters are a different breed, thats why they want a 5day, top score wins... Nationals.
NFAA was started to promote Field archery, so is it not the responsabilty of our elected offical to keep that the priority. 
And if anyone want to shoot for 3days, show up for the IFAA-NAFAC at Everglade Archers in sunny south Florida in December.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

nock tune said:


> Most archers joined the NFAA because of Field archery.
> The old guard is not complaining just making sure your all doing buisness on it's best behalf.
> If only 4% of members shoot the outdoors, then only 12% shoot indoors, and thats a full house.
> 560 shooter for the outdoors is 5 full ranges, whats wrong with that.
> ...


OR take a good look at SUCCESS, as in the ASA and IBO that ALWAYS have their shoots THREE days...and draw over 1,000 shooters every time! In both, you can shoot your entire tournament in ONE day if you so choose, unless you are shooting in the PRO division, then you must shoot with your peers.

5-day format for NFAA is doomed to FAIL...times have changed, and people aren't willing to go anymore for the 5-day format. But, the old school still DEMANDS the 5-day event or they'll take their ball and go home crying. Same old thing tried over and over again and expecting different results, and expecting a LOCATION CHANGE to heal all that ails it. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Might have an increase in attendance due to the location because of the population basis..but the 5-day format is NOT the deciding factor.

But once again, the topic about the 3 day format...and the NFAA Outdoor Nationals being on Monday-Wednesday AND in Yankton seems to draw the most ire.

No matter what was done, there would be something WRONG with it from the "old school shooters' " standpoint, and unless the LOCATION is in the "favorite spot" of some of the newer breed, then LOCATION is WRONG too. They talk about Yankton's new ranges being flat....from what I hear, Mechanicsburg isn't all that hilly or challenging from a footing and angular standpoint either...but it is simply CLOSER for DRIVING TO AND FROM for some of the newer breed.

Field shooters are fickle...they want everything all the time, but it has to fit THEIR personal pallet; otherwise it is just plain WRONG. Same with the timing...it, too would be WRONG no matter what; but it is MORE WRONG if it is in Yankton...but take the SAME DAYS and put it into someone's "favorite spot" and it becomes palatible.....Gimme a break....those that want to will show up, and those that don't, won't show up, but will find some other excuse other than "it's not MY Ball, so I'm not going to play the game."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

Field 14 YOU WIN!!!
But be careful what you wish for.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

nock tune said:


> Field 14 YOU WIN!!!
> But be careful what you wish for.


No kidding....I think we should all be careful in that regard, ha!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

F14,
If you are defending a 3 day Nationals held Mon-Wed you need to hang your quiver up.
Sorry, I forgot. You already did. The transition from a straight up 5 day Nationals held Mon-Fri to a 3 day Nationals held Mon-Wed all in the name of promoting archery is rediculous. Just so you don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I don't give a rip about promoting the NAA, FITA, or any of the rest. I am interested in NFAA Field Archery.
That's the organization I joined (National Field Archery Association) and we Field Archers are watching it fade away through neglect by the very people in charge of preserving it.
No doubt the attendance next year in Yankton will be dismal and add fuel to the move away from Field Archery. Shame really, it's a great game and deserves more.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I find it interesting that we find Yankton to be a poor place to shoot - old ranges were too steep and new courses are too flat. Frankly, I really found the original hilly ranges to be much better (except for the dreaded fly problem). My only issue there was the 45 minute walk for all of the old senior archers who were all assigned to targets 12-15 every day - the targets at the furthest point on the ranges and required major uphill, then downhill, then again uphill to reach our targets. At 65, and now 70, I found that to be a major difficulty when there were lots of young bucks who could have been sent there a couple of times during the week. MIKE: THAT IS A GOOD POINT TO DISCUSS WITH THE POWERS IN THE FUTURE WITH REGARD FOR THE OLD FOLKS WHO HAVE BECOME THE REAL BACKBONE OF THE NFAA. The new ranges were also great and deserve only accolades in my perspective. Sure there were a FEW targets in the wind, but after all, this is field archery - not indoors. Sun, wind and rain are all a part of the game in my mind. I could complain about the same thing at Mechanicsburg - ranges too flat, too much sun, though not a lot of wind.

My perspective: Yankton field ranges are excellent be they the old hilly or new flat ranges. I am disappointed in the weekday schedule and so this year I will shoot the NAA rather than NFAA tournament. I am all for promoting a coordinated NAA/NFAA schedule and thankful that this year the ASA Classic is not in conflict with the nationals. We may see a much larger pro showing this year.

I agree with Field that the 3 day event is the future. No longer do we have the dedicated family vacation crowd that came each year to the nationals. There are other summer things to do that attract the family focus crowd, especially as the youth archer numbers have dwindled so drastically over the years. It may even be that attendance at the nationals will soon dwindle (as we oldtimers fall by the wayside) that it is no longer practical to hold them. We must hope that the three venues will continue to maintain interest in hosting this event, and it is beneficial that we have a Yankton to fall back on if one or both of the others decide to pass on hosting another event.

My perspective: quit *****ing and see the light!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> F14,
> If you are defending a 3 day Nationals held Mon-Wed you need to hang your quiver up.
> Sorry, I forgot. You already did. The transition from a straight up 5 day Nationals held Mon-Fri to a 3 day Nationals held Mon-Wed all in the name of promoting archery is rediculous. Just so you don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I don't give a rip about promoting the NAA, FITA, or any of the rest. I am interested in NFAA Field Archery.
> That's the organization I joined (National Field Archery Association) and we Field Archers are watching it fade away through neglect by the very people in charge of preserving it.
> No doubt the attendance next year in Yankton will be dismal and add fuel to the move away from Field Archery. Shame really, it's a great game and deserves more.


First off, I haven't hung my quiver up by any means. After over 50 years of shooting, that isn't likely to happen. Furthermore, I don't LIKE the idea about the Monday-Wednesday shooting times for the NFAA. However, after thinking about it, SOMEBODY had to be on the Monday-Wednesday schedule in order for this all to work out.
If they do this again, perhaps the NAA Field (or whatever that is) will be on Monday-Wednesday and the NFAA will again be Friday-Sunday.

Oh, and just in case you are about to say, "you don't attend, so you shouldn't be blabbing about it"....I PAY MY DUES and have for 44 years now, so by paying said dues (probably at least twice as many years as you), I have a RIGHT to voice my opinion.

One thing I've learned about the NFAA types over the years is that they (we) are by far the most resistant to change group of people I've ever dealt with. No matter what the change, they (we) are against it. In addition, the other thing is that they(we) are prone to try something new ONCE and immediately figure we have enough "data" concerning the effectiveness of this new change to say that "it doesn't work, so let's go back to the old way of doing things."
Maybe you should TRY the NAA type tournaments...you might learn something from them! True, I haven't shot FITA in quite some time, but I'm here to tell you that those NAA rounds are quite the trip and are a ton of fun. In addition the FITA field rounds can be quite the challenge too..oh, I forgot, you don't like UNMARKED distance, ha.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the "Dismal" attendance next year...you see, the NAA type rounds and participation in the same is GROWING and its popularity is increasing as well. In addition, you can bet that the NAA types are also not overly happy about this additional change either.

You had better get used to the 3-day NFAA Nationals, because over the past few years, I've realized that the 5-day format is either dead or dying. The times have changed, and whether we old timers like it or not, there IS a changing of the guard, and it was bound to happen sooner or later.
Crying, taking your ball, and going or staying home only hurts YOU, because your competitors don't really give one iota whether you show up or not. They will do what they are going to do, just like you are.

I will also say straight up that promoting ONLY the 5-day NFAA format is far from "promoting ARCHERY" as you see it. The USA, on a world-wide scale, is a small drop in the bucket, and thus the NFAA is an even smaller drop in the bucket...on a world-wide scale, that is.

Once again, I'm NOT crazy about the Monday-Wednesday NFAA Outdoor Nationals, I would much prefer it to be Friday-Sunday. But I also don't really see the NEED for a 5-day straight up format for the NFAA National Field Championships either. ESPECIALLY in light of the FACT that in every other SUCCESSFUL organization of late, their "nationals" and "main competitions" are ALL 3 day affairs, but are on Friday-Sunday! 

Let's throw the wrinkle in, however concerning that in those other orgs, a shooter (excepting the PROS) has the option of shooting their courses over two days or ALL IN ONE. How many times have YOU shot 56 targets in ONE day, JBird? Used to be COMMONPLACE in the NFAA to shoot 56 targets in ONE day, and be off the course by 4PM after starting at 9AM...but of course that was then and this is now.

Give this situation a chance...you may well end up way better off. Especially since you aren't going to change this around to YOUR way of liking for 2011 anyways, and neither can I.

I'm hoping that the NFAA doesn't just try this ONE TIME and then say "this doesn't work" and toss it out completely without trying to massage it and make it workable! FINALLY, the NAA and NFAA are actually on the same field/course at the SAME time and at the SAME LOCATION...even if it is the NATIONAL Archery Center in Yankton, SD.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

Field,
I have been a supporter of the 5/3 Day option held Wed-Sun. I believe that has the most potential for max attendence from hard cores, die hards, newbies, and people with limited 
time. This has been tried one time that I am aware of and that was at Mechanicsburg.
Seemed to work pretty well there. I thought building attendence was the goal. We'll all check the total entries at Yankton next year and I think things will become clear, not that it will make any difference. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly expecting a different result, what do you call it when you do something stupid the first time, and know it, and do it any way?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I would much prefer the Wed-Sun IF they do the 5/3 option....BUT...to "Boycott" the tournament because of location AND because of not having the 5/3 option is cutting our noses off to spite our faces! Participation is low enough, and if we keep "boycotting" every time something different and not our "preferred location" and "preferred number of days", then pretty soon, there won't be an NFAA National Outdoors for anyone to participate in.

Sorry to say, but I see the NAA National TARGET tournament formats, and the IFAA/NAA type FIELD events GAINING in popularity...and we'd better get used to that too.
Easton built yet another facility in Florida...and only two weeks ago, many tournament archers of World Caliber flocked to that tournament too!

I notice that even RSW, a dedicated old-time FIELD/NFAA shooter from WAY BACK, is even leaning toward the NAA events and NOT doing the NFAA event?????

You are saying they tried Mechanicsburg 3/5 once? Well, yes, but didn't YANKTON also have the 3/5 option?

You gots the folks on the WEST coast that won't drive/travel to the EAST coast, you gots EAST coasters that won't go WEST, and you gots CENTRALS that won't go either direction. That is a problem with ALL the organizations.

BUT...when you get two TARGET oriented organizations FINALLY coming together for a "host" of events, NOW is not the time to be bickering, boycotting, and crying and moaning to take your ball and cry wee-wee all the way home, IMHO.

I started out bad-mouthing this NAA/NFAA/IFAA thing...and after thinking about it...I've come to the realization that it is ABOUT TIME that the two got together and tried to do something to bring the organizations together. Some of the NAA types may well shoot the NFAA field, and some of the NFAA types WILL try the NAA rounds.
I'll tell you one thing about that Multi-color face...there are something like 114 DIFFERENT rounds that are "on the books" for utilization of that particular FITA target face, and smaller sizes as well. It is NOT ALL the full 90-70-50-30 meter rounds either....114 DIFFERENT rounds, each with different numbers of arrows shot, different distances, and some with different sized target faces as well.
The USA is the ONLY country world-wide that sticks themselves primarily with FITA, the 70 Meter types, and the 900 round. Nearly all the other countries utilize the hosts of other rounds in their repertoire! Once again, when it comes to WORLD SCALE...we here in the USofA are a drop in the bucket! But of course, some of we Americans cry foul and couldn't care less; but we'd better start, cuz on a WORLD SCALE....the competition is gaining on us in leaps and bounds! It isn't as easy now in the COMPOUND divisions as it was only 3 years ago. As far as the RECURVE divisions...the other countries, Especially Korea, have left the USA in the dust to pick up the crumbs.

Now, tell me how many DIFFERENT rounds there are available in the NFAA Field repertoire?

This NAA/NFAA thing could, instead of opening a "can of worms", open an entirely new set of competitive events that MOST, if they'd give it a chance would find most enjoyable. How many FITA rounds have you ever shot? How many FITA FIELD rounds have you ever shot? Ever shoot a YORK round? Ever hear of the "Prince's Reckoning"? What is a "Green"? What is a "petticoat"?

Oh, but, JBird if you only knew how much there is to offer on the "other side" of the target world..... and finally after all these years, the TWO target orgs are finally going to be on the same shooting grounds at the same time and allowed to "cross-breed" as it were....GREAT THINGS can come of this! GIVE IT A CHANCE OR NINE!

Now...with that all said...I do NOT like the NFAA NOT having the Friday-Sunday for the NFAA field, but once again, SOMEBODY had to have the Monday-Wednesday, and "we're it." 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## TargetWoman (Jul 28, 2007)

As a former Outdoor Nationals champion, I think the idea of a 3 day outdoor Nationals Monday - Wednesday is a horrible idea. It would be very unlikely that I would return to an Outdoor Nationals in this format. It is simply a waste of my vacation. If I am going to have to spend a week of vacation to shoot, then I want to shoot the entire week, and want all five days to count to the final score.

It seems like the organization is out of touch with it's members. If this type of major change was on the table, then they should have sent this out to ask the members ahead of time what they wanted to see. The subject never went to the members, and *that is the real problem*. This is a major change to the tournament, and for the decision to be made without input shows a lack of respect for the members.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

TargetWoman said:


> As a former Outdoor Nationals champion, I think the idea of a 3 day outdoor Nationals Monday - Wednesday is a horrible idea. It would be very unlikely that I would return to an Outdoor Nationals in this format. It is simply a waste of my vacation. If I am going to have to spend a week of vacation to shoot, then I want to shoot the entire week, and want all five days to count to the final score.
> 
> It seems like the organization is out of touch with it's members. If this type of major change was on the table, then they should have sent this out to ask the members ahead of time what they wanted to see. The subject never went to the members, and *that is the real problem*. This is a major change to the tournament, and for the decision to be made without input shows a lack of respect for the members.


You STILL CAN shoot ALL WEEK at this upcoming 2011 event! You do NOT have to be an NAA member to compete in the other events. This simply gives you and opportunity to broaden your horizons and shoot some different types of rounds, and frankly I'm beginning to think it would be the cat's meow.
NO MULLIGANS....You shoot what you shoot, and ALL scores count. I do NOT like the Mon-Wed, but the rest of it? I'm liking the idea more and more, as I think about it more and more....and LOCATION does NOT matter....it is set for YANKTON, and that's it. Not crazy about little to no notification, but then again these things take time and compromise between the organizations involved....so perhaps, just maybe they've given us as much advance notification as they could.

So, in reality, you aren't really "wasting vacation" the opportunity to shoot more is still on the table. In addition, you are shooting MORE than just ONE National tournament, too...and there is one guarantee....ALL YOUR SCORES WILL COUNT...no "mulligans."

We'd never agree anyways when it comes to TWO Target orgs coming together to have consecutive tournaments during the same week, and I'm figuring those powers at be of BOTH organizations knew this because it is as plain as the nose on our face....BOTH sides memberships are going to pee and moan, threaten boycott, and cry wah-wah to the point that nothing would get done...unless SOMEONE gets off the pot and makes some decisions.

If they would have put all of this on the table....I can already tell you what they would have gotten...Probably less than 5% response rate...and MOST OF IT probably AGAINST changing the "way it used to be"....anything from the timing, to the location, to the lack of trees, to too many hills, to not enough flat spots, to the sun, the rain, the wind, the weather, you name it. This "advance notice and asking the membership" would have been nothing but a circle-jerk. 
The only major change...that Is NOT a major change is the 3-days being on Mon-Wed...>BUT...on a 5-day format....do we not shoot MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY anyways??? HUH???? Only this go around those are the ONLY 3-rounds that count...then comes the NEXT tournament in the NAA format? You want to more than 3 days, you get to...it is YOUR choice....just won't be another field and hunter round is all. Going after the nice 10-ring inside a basketball sized gold circle..but, you can't see that 10-ring so clearly as an NFAA spot/dot, hehehe.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

we did the 5/3 on Wed-Sun in Darrington this year Jay.... we missed seeing you there  The "increased attendance" was minimal and dissappointing to be sure, I was one of the very few who did the 3 day over the weekend option.

My new theory is that the nationals will be the same size per geography ( east, west or central) as they were the year before, +/- 25 people, no matter if it is a 5-day, 3/5-day on week days or 3/5-day over a weekend. The core 200 shooters go anywhere to shoot field nationals, the rest of the shooters change depending on where the shoot is held. 

For me, it would be nice to get 3 nationals for the price of 1 plane and hotel bill and one week of vacation time.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

TargetWoman said:


> As a former Outdoor Nationals champion, I think the idea of a 3 day outdoor Nationals Monday - Wednesday is a horrible idea. It would be very unlikely that I would return to an Outdoor Nationals in this format. It is simply a waste of my vacation. If I am going to have to spend a week of vacation to shoot, then I want to shoot the entire week, and want all five days to count to the final score.
> 
> It seems like the organization is out of touch with it's members. If this type of major change was on the table, then they should have sent this out to ask the members ahead of time what they wanted to see. The subject never went to the members, and *that is the real problem*. This is a major change to the tournament, and for the decision to be made without input shows a lack of respect for the members.


Well said TW. A change of this nature should be by vote of the membership but that will never happen. I would venture to guess that it was not even put to a vote of the directors. Bruce operates on the principal that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission. This started with the sale of the property in California and continues to 
this day. The members are powerless to direct the activities of the organization. The directors are also powerless to direct anything and the Councilmen are insulated from
repercussions from their decisions. It has been said by some of the leadership that if we don't like the direction to vote the people out of office. The sad truth is that this is next to impossible. The good ole boy network keeps key directors in charge, the directors pick the councilmen, and the councilmen select the president. Combine this with the mystical power of the WAF which is supposed to be owned by the NFAA and the mess we have in congress pales by comparison. Maybe Field archery will survive on the local level
till the old timers fade away. Maybe this new union of NFAA, NAA (who wouldn't even fund a compound team), and the Easton dynasty will bring archery roaring into prominence. Maybe the tooth fairy will be found. One fact remains. The decision to put your membership dues in an envelope and mail it is still a member level decision. That means we still have a vote.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SuperX said:


> we did the 5/3 on Wed-Sun in Darrington this year Jay.... we missed seeing you there  The "increased attendance" was minimal and dissappointing to be sure, I was one of the very few who did the 3 day over the weekend option.
> 
> My new theory is that the nationals will be the same size per geography ( east, west or central) as they were the year before, +/- 25 people, no matter if it is a 5-day, 3/5-day on week days or 3/5-day over a weekend. The core 200 shooters go anywhere to shoot field nationals, the rest of the shooters change depending on where the shoot is held.
> 
> ...


What you say is the part that so many are MISSING....3 (THREE) National tournaments for the price of 1 plane and hotel bill and ONE week of vacation time....But, "the naysayers" don't want to see it quite that way. However, it has already been discussed and said_...."It is simply a waste of my vacation. If I am going to have to spend a week of vacation to shoot, then I want to shoot the entire week, and want all five days to count to the final score."_ but in reality, like YOU astutely said above....ONE WEEK..>THREE National events and ALL the scores count...certainly NOT a waste of vacation time, IMHO.

Before you all get on my case, by the way, NO, I'm NOT going to the THREE National Tournaments in ONE week. I have other "priority" items that includes a week-long bicycling trip up to beautiful Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan..and can't afford BOTH trips...and bicycling wins out once again, ha. We only grumble and complain when it is pouring rain, or windier than all get out and having to climb hills for mile after mile, hehe...but we don't take our bikes and go home crying...we just continue to pedal on anyways.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I don't want to give the impression I am boycotting the Nationals. The weekend shoot just fits my schedule better so I will shoot that and pass on the NFAA.

Part of the problem with our NFAA is simply that a bunch of old timers who don't shoot, run the organization. We really should have new blood from the younger generation in charge. Take the president out of the decision-making process and let the state reps make the decisions. That way, we have a chance of decisions being made in concert with the membership directly. We have been Obamacized in the NFAA. Pelosi and Reid must be in charge!


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

TargetWoman said:


> As a former Outdoor Nationals champion, I think the idea of a 3 day outdoor Nationals Monday - Wednesday is a horrible idea. It would be very unlikely that I would return to an Outdoor Nationals in this format. It is simply a waste of my vacation. If I am going to have to spend a week of vacation to shoot, then I want to shoot the entire week, and want all five days to count to the final score.
> 
> It seems like the organization is out of touch with it's members. If this type of major change was on the table, then they should have sent this out to ask the members ahead of time what they wanted to see. The subject never went to the members, and *that is the real problem*. This is a major change to the tournament, and for the decision to be made without input shows a lack of respect for the members.


TW and Jbird I'm behind you 100%. Field your stick is getting old.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

My stick might be getting old....but MODERNIZATION of the entire game is sure in need....desparately....those that have UPDATED their "National ideas and formats" (ASA and IBO)..are GROWING or at least certainly have overtaken the old NFAA crimp-style of MUST HAVE 5-days of shooting or else. Those other two associations saw the writing on the wall may years ago and went AWAY from 5-day formats, and have been kicking butt in attendance for years.

The 5-day NFAA Nationals is probably a nice and memorable HISTORY...but it isn't made for today's shooters....and quite frankly, there are those in the Senior and Master Senior Divisions that probably can't do the drudgery of 5 consecutive days of field shooting either, if the truth be known and admitted to.

We've griped for years and years about NAA and NFAA getting their sierra together and seeking common ground...and the first time they try...just look at yourselves...FLAK, FLAK, and MORE FLAK....

Give them SOME semblance of support....a decision had to be made, they've made it....if they hadn't and depended upon US to do it, NOTHING would be happening but peeing and moaning about who gets first dibs on this, and the location sucks, and the timing sucks....NOTHING is right, or the arm chairers and old school leave it alone types would continue to block any efforts on progress.....

Can't seem to accept the FACT that there IS 5 days or more of shooting....NO MULLIGANS, and the opportunity to shoot more than just ONE GAME in the house to boot. Broadening horizons never hurt anyone.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

A 5day Nationals was voted on for Yankton, thats why they got the bid. Who gave any one the right to change it?
Besides to shoot all rounds you'll have to pay separate fees to shoot all. That creates an extra expense, over paying for one 5day.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Field 14, I enjoy your posts and the experience with which you bring to the discussion. For me, the problem is not that the two organizations are getting together to try and bring things to central location for at least a two year trial. What irks me is how the decision was made! As I posted before, there was no problem with getting bids to host the shoots. I'd be very happy if both presidents simply told the truth, whatever it may be and own up to it. It is a two year committment. And the 2012 schedule will be earlier in the year because the FITA field winners and the USA Field teams must be formed by a certain date in order to qualify for the World Championships (And there is more to be done in the 2012 year because the national team is selected at that meet - meaning shoot offs, etc). I'd love to read: "Dear Members, we leaders(whatever term you perfer) of the NFAA and the NAA decided that we needed to save money and felt merging the major outdoor national shoots at one site would do it. It's a two year committment. If it doesn't work, in 2013 we go back to the open bidding process." Or even this one: "Our sponsors felt we needed to merge our major outdoor tournaments. The sponsors felt that if we did not try this formate or venue, that their continued support of our sport would be in jeopardy. We need their support, so we're trying it." Now telling the truth would not stop any of the anger or upsets or the "what the hell is this", but it would be honest and we'd all know why. Beats the heck out of guessing and pointing fingers shouting "traitor."


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rpdjr45 said:


> Field 14, I enjoy your posts and the experience with which you bring to the discussion. For me, the problem is not that the two organizations are getting together to try and bring things to central location for at least a two year trial. What irks me is how the decision was made! As I posted before, there was no problem with getting bids to host the shoots. I'd be very happy if both presidents simply told the truth, whatever it may be and own up to it. It is a two year committment. And the 2012 schedule will be earlier in the year because the FITA field winners and the USA Field teams must be formed by a certain date in order to qualify for the World Championships (And there is more to be done in the 2012 year because the national team is selected at that meet - meaning shoot offs, etc). I'd love to read: "Dear Members, we leaders(whatever term you perfer) of the NFAA and the NAA decided that we needed to save money and felt merging the major outdoor national shoots at one site would do it. It's a two year committment. If it doesn't work, in 2013 we go back to the open bidding process." Or even this one: "Our sponsors felt we needed to merge our major outdoor tournaments. The sponsors felt that if we did not try this formate or venue, that their continued support of our sport would be in jeopardy. We need their support, so we're trying it." Now telling the truth would not stop any of the anger or upsets or the "what the hell is this", but it would be honest and we'd all know why. Beats the heck out of guessing and pointing fingers shouting "traitor."


Can't say that I disagree with what you say above, that's for sure. Of course, we both realize that often times, or maybe most of the time, hind-sight is 20/20 and foresight is blind.
The way it was done is irritating, but we aren't going to change it.
With you explaining more of what this is about, then I sure would think that there is also an attempt to try to assemble the best FIELD shooters onto the field team and the best target shooters onto the TARGET team? Or am I misconstruing this.

FIELD shooting is an art in and of itself; would seem to me that it isn't such a bad idea as to try to get the blend of NAA/NFAA field shooters together, just as it is to get the "target"/FITA style shooters together too. Apparently the FORESIGHT goal of this may well be to strengthen the USA chances in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS??? Or am I missing that too?

Of course, for many, the World Championships and team formations don't mean squat, and the furtherance and melding of the two "field games"..>FITA field and NFAA field don't matter either. Many aren't willing to even attempt FITA style field or target rounds, being "dedicated" field shooters and unwilling to go further than that. Oh, well...they are the ones missing out on broadening their horizons and learning more than one game...too bad, for those that haven't tried both sides of the fence.

I agree that even telling the truth (if there were indeed any mis-truths even spoken) would not stop the naysayers and the whiners and the "this is the way it always was and this is the way it MUST stay" crowd of fundamentalists in the NFAA or the NAA.

While we are irked at how this decision was made, it won't get it changed, or at least it certainly isn't likely to get it changed.

Every year, we go thru this once the location of the Outdoor Nationals is known...and every time it is in Yankton, the same couple of folks cry the blues and insist it should be anywhere else BUT Yankton...and that won't ever change from those folks. Same goes for the 5/3 or the 5-day format...afterall...it was always that way before, so it should continue...and the downturn in attendance be da**ned. Typical American resistance to change and we can't change that resistance either; in fact, can't even seem to cushion it any, ha.

It is what it is, and it is indeed too bad that the foresight to tell the memberships of BOTH organizations in advance wasn't there, but then again, maybe, due to the negotiations and other items, that couldn't have been done....and if it was done, would it have done any good anyway?

field14 (Tom D.)


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