# Broadhead Tuning Day Today



## Doc

First shots
Red is Broadhead
Green is Field Point


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## Doc

Second shots


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## Doc

3rd shots


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## Doc

Fourth


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## Doc

Fifth Shots


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## Doc

Final Shots


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## Doc

Ready for the whitetail woods.


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## herbeapuce

good work were. thanks for the detailed log.

you make it sound SO simple... 



regards
Stef.


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## Doc

herbeapuce said:


> good work were. thanks for the detailed log.
> 
> you make it sound SO simple...
> 
> 
> 
> regards
> Stef.


Thanks, but I guess it is _relatively_ simple IF you have eliminated any contact issues (aka vane clearance) and your arrows are matched with your rig (that is within factory spec) and the bow is somewhat in tune to start with.


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## Bowbuster

Good stuff right there, thanks for taking the time.........:wink:


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## Mahly

THAT is the way to tune a bow!
That is my #1 recommendation for people with paper tearing issues.


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## Live4Rut

Very cool:nod::thumbs_up


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## Stanley

Very nicely illustrated presentation.


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## kosy1993

*Sticky this thread*

I think this thread is sticky worthy since the season is so close.

:darkbeer:


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## Gates

I don't notice much difference up close but check to make sure I don't ruin blades. Then I tune at 50, and check to 70. May never shoot that far, but what a confidence builder in your equipment.


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## Doc

Gates said:


> I don't notice much difference up close but check to make sure I don't ruin blades. Then I tune at 50, and check to 70. May never shoot that far, but what a confidence builder in your equipment.


I would agree for the most part, but I just put the rest and sight on this bow (same combo I used last year, but had them on a different bow for MBR) and installed a Simms teflon cable slide. The only thing I did was check cam timing, ATA and BH before sighting in the FP's at 25 yards.
This is a "start from scratch" type scenario.


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## Doc

kosy1993 said:


> I think this thread is sticky worthy since the season is so close.
> 
> :darkbeer:


I might know somebody that can do that very thing:wink:


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## elkkat

*Nice job!*

You may be responsible for the deaths of several more hooved animals this year.  :wink:


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## michihunter

After the recent poll I ran called Bowhunter Survey, I'm certainly glad to see someone follow up with a post like this. There were FAR too many people (20%+)that simply attached their BH and hoped for the best. Thanks Doc!!


BTW- Here's that survey http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=535188&highlight=Bowhunter+Survey


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## Doc

elkkat said:


> You may be responsible for the deaths of several more hooved animals this year.  :wink:


That's guilt I can live with:dancing:


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## Doc

TedRutko said:


> After the recent poll I ran called Bowhunter Syrvey, I'm certainly glad to see someone follow up with a post like this. There were FAR too many people (20%+)that simply attached their BH and hoped for the best. Thanks Doc!!
> 
> 
> BTW- Here's that survey http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=535188&highlight=Bowhunter+Survey


Ted,
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that previously, but I'll bet AT users don't represent the vast majority. I know many people say Broadhead tune? They buy them the night before and screw those nice shiny heads on...never even consider a different POI.


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## michihunter

Doc said:


> Ted,
> but I'll bet AT users don't represent the vast majority.


That's even scarier then!! But I have to agree. Darn shame really.


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## teambringit1

nice job doc, seeing as how I migrated north I would love to shoot with you sometime, you got it going on bro....

Dan


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## ducsauce

Great thread!

I was broadhead tuning the other day but had to stop short. Doesn't matter anyway. I'm going to buy the MZE today and install that. No more NAP Quicktune 2000.:blob1:


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## Todd_ID

Excellent graphical help, Doc! That's going to help a lot of people on here, because all of us have to go through those exact same steps to insure that we can hit what we aim at in the coming months. As dedicated archers, we're always tweaking, changing, and playing around with our bows as well as working them hard and damaging them in the woods. These steps must be done every time anything changes a tiny amount. Great work!


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## MN Doe Hunter

What kind of target is that?


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## Doc

MN Doe Hunter said:


> What kind of target is that?


That is the Rinehart 18-in1


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## HoytFlinger

Doc said:


> That is the Rinehart 18-in1


Been thinking about getting one of those. How did it handle the BHs?


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## Doc

HoytFlinger said:


> Been thinking about getting one of those. How did it handle the BHs?


Quite well. I went and shot the Strikers some more today (shredded some Blazers in the process). Rinehart guarantees the target from pass-throughs for one full year including broadhead use Those Strikers sure do try to get through it, but no dice yet.


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## Doc

I received several PM's asking how close is close enough. This all depends on your shooting ability. If you normally shoot 3 inch groups with field points at 30 yards and can keep your broadhead in that 3 inches, then you are good-to-go. If you can only hold a 6 inch group, then your BH's should be in that 6 inch area. I like to get them this close though.


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## greenhornet

Doc, how do you know whether to move the rest or the sight? Why is it that the BH and FP land in different locations but by moving the sight and rest they eventually land in the same place? Is that the initual tuning or done after you paper tuned? Do you shoot through paper afterwards to make sure that the arrow is flying straight? At what distance shout you put the paper at when shooting through? Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to become a better archer and still have a lot to learn.


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## Doc

greenhornet said:


> Doc, how do you know whether to move the rest or the sight? Why is it that the BH and FP land in different locations but by moving the sight and rest they eventually land in the same place? Is that the initual tuning or done after you paper tuned? Do you shoot through paper afterwards to make sure that the arrow is flying straight? At what distance shout you put the paper at when shooting through? Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to become a better archer and still have a lot to learn.


This is a common misconception and area of frustration for many. This is why I posted a step-by-step instruction of what I moved when. The whole goal to BH tuning is to get the same point of impact (POI) for your BH and FP's. Therefore moving your sight is not going to tune anything. You adjust your rest until your BH and FP's are grouping together. It doesn't matter if they are hitting where you are aiming (aiming at center X the whole time), only if they are hitting together. Once you get them to hit together, you are BH tuned and now it's time to set your sight for their POI. After you get them to group together and adjust your sight to the proper POI...you are done...good-to-go. Forget paper. If you go back to paper, you are just going to have to BH tune again. If you are going to paper tune, do this to get things close before BH tuning.
Make sense?


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## So.OH_bowhunter

Great post doc:thumbs_up


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## teambringit1

genius! thanks again DOC


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## MikeStod

What about walkback tuning? Does this still fit into the equation somewhere, or is it an either/or thing? To me it would seem that broadhead tuning might negate any effects gained from walkback tuning and vice versa...


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## Doc

MikeStod said:


> What about walkback tuning? Does this still fit into the equation somewhere, or is it an either/or thing? To me it would seem that broadhead tuning might negate any effects gained from walkback tuning and vice versa...


You can walk-back tune prior to BH tuning, but if you are truly BH tuned (done at various distances) then there is no reason to walk-back tune.
If you were to paper tune and then walk-back tune, your BH tuning should only require minimal adjustments. BH's show tuning flaws more so than FP's.


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## bluegrasshunter

*Great post Doc*

Awsome info here. Noticed something though....You show BH and FP shots for every shot except for FP #2...Any reason? Or am I just being anal (like my wife tells me when it comes to my hunting stuff)? Great post either way, and a big THANK YOU.
Brad


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## Doc

bluegrasshunter said:


> Awsome info here. Noticed something though....You show BH and FP shots for every shot except for FP #2...Any reason? Or am I just being anal (like my wife tells me when it comes to my hunting stuff)? Great post either way, and a big THANK YOU.
> Brad


Brad thanks. I didn't shoot an FP that round. Just wanted to shoot BH to see how much more adjustment was needed to get it in X. After the BH was center x, then I shot FP's to see how the two were grouping.


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## bluegrasshunter

*Just wondering.*



Doc said:


> Brad thanks. I didn't shoot an FP that round. Just wanted to shoot BH to see how much more adjustment was needed to get it in X. After the BH was center x, then I shot FP's to see how the two were grouping.


Thanks. I'll be finishing up my BH tuning and sight in this afternoon after work.:wink:


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## Doc

bluegrasshunter said:


> Thanks. I'll be finishing up my BH tuning and sight in this afternoon after work.:wink:


Great, let us know how it goes.:archer:


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## greenhornet

Thanks Doc, I will be giving that a try shortly. I have not shot my broadheads yet with my new bow but now I know what to do if they are off. I must say that this is a great site for new shooters to gain knowledge.


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## jimposten

Awesome Doc, Now come over and do mine:wink:

JIM


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## RxBowhunter

*Great thread Doc*

The success ratios will improve this year!:wink:


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## spnsmith

*thanks doc*

I am new to bow shooting and have that very same problem now. i sighted my bow in @ 20 yards and then put my practice G5 montec( 100 gr) bh on and it was very low and i did not know why!!!! I am offshore right now but will be sighting my bow for bh using this explanation. i have a HOYT turbotec bow do you think i should sight my bow in @ 20 yards or 25 yards that way the difference between a 20 yard shot and 30 yard shot will not be very much. thanks again i just found this web site and i have already learned something new. I love shooting my bow. Is ther some where else on here that i can learn about shooting a bow the correct way!!!!


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## luvemhot

DOC
I am sighting in my bow, and have just started shooting BHs. I am hitting about 3 inches apart. I have never adjusted my rest. I guess my ? is should I start over and tune the way you say if so. what should my starting point be?
I just found this site and what a find can see I rookie like me can learn alot


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## Doc

spnsmith said:


> do you think i should sight my bow in @ 20 yards or 25 yards that way the difference between a 20 yard shot and 30 yard shot will not be very much.


Sight marks are personal preference for the most part based upon your shooting ability, hunting area and pursued game. I like to set both a 20 and 30 rather than split the difference. Some guys will set a 25 and hold high or low depending on the shot.


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## Doc

luvemhot said:


> DOC
> I am sighting in my bow, and have just started shooting BHs. I am hitting about 3 inches apart. I have never adjusted my rest. I guess my ? is should I start over and tune the way you say if so. what should my starting point be?
> I just found this site and what a find can see I rookie like me can learn alot


You can just go ahead and broadhead tune. If you are only 3 inches apart, then some minor rest adjustments will get you grouping FP's and BH's together.


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## Doc

RxBowhunter said:


> The success ratios will improve this year!:wink:


Thanks and let's hope this is the case. The more "look at my deer" threads, the better


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## Bobmuley

Doc said:


> Thanks, but I guess it is _relatively_ simple IF you have eliminated any contact issues (aka vane clearance) and your arrows are matched with your rig (that is within factory spec) and the bow is somewhat in tune to start with.


Really is the key to simplified tuning....all you're doing is tuning, not trying to make something work that doesn't want to.


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## spnsmith

*one pin*

Thanks DOC i should have said that i have a trophy ridge titan sight with a single pin does this still change the way i should sight my bow @ 20-25 yards...


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## Doc

spnsmith said:


> Thanks DOC i should have said that i have a trophy ridge titan sight with a single pin does this still change the way i should sight my bow @ 20-25 yards...


Where do you hunt? What are the normal shot distances? Where is your confidence level? How far away do your shooting lanes extend? Do you use a scent canister or spot attractant? Ask yourself these questions and you'll have the answer. If I could only use 1 pin to hunt I would set it dependent upon the stand. The one stand I would set it at 20 yards on the nose. At a different stand, I would set it at 28.


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## IGluIt4U

kosy1993 said:


> I think this thread is sticky worthy since the season is so close.
> 
> :darkbeer:


Dang right it is.. Great thread Doc.. :first:

Hopefully this will help some who struggle with tuning the broadhead.. :thumb::cheers:


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## jf69

Doc I have a question. Doesnt this method of moving your rest around change the centershot, nock point on your bow? After everything one does to get proper arrowflight seems to me you are changing to many things with your rest. I want to try this method of bh tuning, just afraid to change my rest location.


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## Doc

jf69 said:


> Doc I have a question. Doesnt this method of moving your rest around change the centershot, nock point on your bow? After everything one does to get proper arrowflight seems to me you are changing to many things with your rest. I want to try this method of bh tuning, just afraid to change my rest location.


If you have to move your rest position and/or nock point on your bow in order to achieve FP/BH grouping, then your rest/nockpoint was not precisely set to centershot in the first place. Broadhead flight will show minor tuning flaws much better than fieldpoints. Your bow might have been shooting just fine with fieldpoints, but if it doesn't with BH's then you have a bit of tuning to do (assuming your BH weight/shaft/bow set-up is matched and your BH's spin true).


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## jf69

Doc said:


> If you have to move your rest position and/or nock point on your bow in order to achieve FP/BH grouping, then your rest/nockpoint was not precisely set to centershot in the first place. Broadhead flight will show minor tuning flaws much better than fieldpoints. Your bow might have been shooting just fine with fieldpoints, but if it doesn't with BH's then you have a bit of tuning to do (assuming your BH weight/shaft/bow set-up is matched and your BH's spin true).


Even if your bareshaft and paper tuning is good? Both are good with field fp's. I have not shot bh's yet. So I guess if I feel my bow is tuned well, the bh's and fp's should group well then with no adjustment right? I will try your method of tuning. Thanks for info. Great thread


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## Doc

jf69 said:


> Even if your bareshaft and paper tuning is good? Both are good with field fp's. I have not shot bh's yet. So I guess if I feel my bow is tuned well, the bh's and fp's should group well then with no adjustment right? I will try your method of tuning. Thanks for info. Great thread


If your bareshaft and paper tuning is good-to-go, then you should need little to no adjustments for BH tuning (theoretically). Remember with any tuning, you have to realize your goals. The goal for this is to get your FP's and BH's grouping together. This is going to allow you to practice with FP's and ensure the best possible flight for broadheads providing maximum efficiency with respect to speed and penetration.


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## cajunhunter

I have been so confused trying to BH tune my Hellrazors, that I finally moved the rest the other direction. This got me there. I then reread your setup and you are a lefty. It all makes since now. Hellrazors are tuned now.


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## cajunhunter

This is an awsome sight. I would have never had the confidence to BH tune my bow without it. I just shot 2 more shots. 1 BH and 1 FP and the arrows were touching at 25 yards and on X. Well about 1/4" low but together. I thought my bow was tune, but not I consider that a basic tune. The BH Tune is a Fine Tune. Thanks AT.


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## Doc

cajunhunter said:


> I just shot 2 more shots. 1 BH and 1 FP and the arrows were touching at 25 yards and on X.


Good deal:thumb: Nice work.


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## smbmd

*Tuning*

Just wondered why the BH shoot so different from the FP if the bow is properly tuned. Was it paper tuned/walk back tuned? Or do you expect the BH to shoot different from your FP in all situatins? Or does it depend on the BH...? Thanks for your help!!


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## Doc

smbmd said:


> Just wondered why the BH shoot so different from the FP if the bow is properly tuned. Was it paper tuned/walk back tuned? Or do you expect the BH to shoot different from your FP in all situatins? Or does it depend on the BH...? Thanks for your help!!


If you are asking about the bow I used here specifically, then it was not previously tuned with paper or walkback (set to factory specs though)...just eyeballed for the most part. I had just installed a new cable slide and a new drop-away on the bow. I just figured I would get right to the fun part (BH tuning). However you are correct in that the differences would have been far less had the bow been previously paper-tuned and walk-back tuned.


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## BIG ARCHERY NUT

Doc,

I have been reading the last few posts in regards to walk back tuning. We have just got my daughters bow tuned through paper then we walk back tuned and got her center shot right on. Now I going to try her broadheads. Maybe they will be the same but let's say they aren't. If we make any left right changes then we go back and try the walk-back and find it's off again then what? Would this mean an arrow spine issue? If we make changes to get the center shot back on then broadhead vs. field point impact could be off again. Right? Maybe I need to try this before I assume the worst.

Thanks for your thread on this.:wink:


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## Doc

BIG ARCHERY NUT said:


> Doc,
> 
> I have been reading the last few posts in regards to walk back tuning. We have just got my daughters bow tuned through paper then we walk back tuned and got her center shot right on. Now I going to try her broadheads. Maybe they will be the same but let's say they aren't. If we make any left right changes then we go back and try the walk-back and find it's off again then what? Would this mean an arrow spine issue? If we make changes to get the center shot back on then broadhead vs. field point impact could be off again. Right? Maybe I need to try this before I assume the worst.
> 
> Thanks for your thread on this.:wink:


If you have arrow spine issues, then most likely you are going to pull your hair out BH tuning. Your left/right (depending on too stiff or too weak) will drive you crazy. If you see too weak of a spine, then back off the poundage a bit and see if this helps. If it's too stiff, increase the poundage or BH weight. I don't go backwards though (i.e. back to paper or walk-back after BH tuning). I make sure my BH and FP's are grouping and then I check at another yardage (at least 15 yards greater) and figure I am good-to-go. Let us know how you make out.epsi:


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## BIG ARCHERY NUT

Doc said:


> If you have arrow spine issues, then most likely you are going to pull your hair out BH tuning. Your left/right (depending on too stiff or too weak) will drive you crazy. If you see too weak of a spine, then back off the poundage a bit and see if this helps. If it's too stiff, increase the poundage or BH weight. I don't go backwards though (i.e. back to paper or walk-back after BH tuning). I make sure my BH and FP's are grouping and then I check at another yardage (at least 15 yards greater) and figure I am good-to-go. Let us know how you make out.epsi:


Having a lower bow weight sort of creates issues finding quality arrows. She upgraded her bow last year from a Parker Adrenaline to a Bowtech Equalizer and the arrows would not tune well with BH and field points. This spring we bought some Carbon Express Terminator Lite Hunter arrows and right off the top of my head cannot remember the size but worked much better. I'm hoping these will match up better. I will let you know what happens.


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## wfcjr

Doc,
Thanks for posting this tutorial. Very helpful.
Have tried to do this the past two nights. So far it's not working. BHs are hitting left & a bit low of FPs. Both are grouping very well. Moving the rest did bring the BH & FP closer initially, but after initial adjustments the BH & FP impacts just kept moving right, lockstep with each additional move of the rest without getting any closer together. I am shooting different arrows, but the spine is supposed to be nearly identical to my other set. Rest is a Trophy Taker drop away. Any suggestions?

Thanks


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## bluegrasshunter

Doc said:


> Great, let us know how it goes.:archer:


Finally go to broadhead tune last night. Couldn't even shoot for a few days due to one of my neighbor's kids playing outside till dark, and thier yard is down range of my target. Probably never send an arrow into thier yard, but I will never risk it.
Anyway, got to do it last night. Didn't even have to move anything. I guess I did something right when I walk back tuned it a couple weeks ago. That, or I'm just really lucky.:wink:
Thanks for all the help and informative posts from everyone on AT.
Brad


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## cajunhunter

Questions?

Doc and others, I am new to the tuning process. I have been having fun with the process although sometimes I am more confused than normal. I was one of those that come hunting season I just moved my sight. I would say I am very close now at multiple yardard. 

If I BH tune and I am BH tune at multiple yardage(20 and 35) is my bow tuned?

Is there ever a need to paper tune or walkback tune if you BH tune at multiple yardage? 


Thanks, I have to make is simple for me or it doesn't sink in!


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## Doc

wfcjr said:


> Doc,
> Thanks for posting this tutorial. Very helpful.
> Have tried to do this the past two nights. So far it's not working. BHs are hitting left & a bit low of FPs. Both are grouping very well. Moving the rest did bring the BH & FP closer initially, but after initial adjustments the BH & FP impacts just kept moving right, lockstep with each additional move of the rest without getting any closer together. I am shooting different arrows, but the spine is supposed to be nearly identical to my other set. Rest is a Trophy Taker drop away. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks


It could be a rest timing issue or something as simple as rotating your nocks. Did you check for fletching contact? Lipstick on the vanes works great for this. Also did you spin your heads to make sure there is no "wobble"?
If you sense a spine issue, try increasing or decreasing the poundage on the bow to see if there is any change of BH to FP point of impact.


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## got_elk?

*great thread!!*

Doc,

Nice job, that said, some people can't move their rest very easily and/or should probably move their nocking point instaed. Do you agree that moving your nocking point down may have done the same as moving your rest up? My point is there are two ways to do just what you did and there are alternatives to the tuning process.


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## Bobmuley

*Hi Mark.*



got_elk? said:


> Doc,
> 
> Nice job, that said, some people can't move their rest very easily and/or should probably move their nocking point instaed. Do you agree that moving your nocking point down may have done the same as moving your rest up? My point is there are two ways to do just what you did and there are alternatives to the tuning process.


 You can but there are consequences, some to a greater degree than others...

A) peep height will change (only a problem if you have it tied in too well:wink.
B) grip angle will change. The biggy for me.
C) tiller will change.
D) draw stop tune will change (hybrids and dual cams).


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## cajunhunter

Somebody please respond to my last questions thanks. I have a bet with my friend.


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## Bobmuley

cajunhunter said:


> Questions?
> 
> Doc and others, I am new to the tuning process. I have been having fun with the process although sometimes I am more confused than normal. I was one of those that come hunting season I just moved my sight. I would say I am very close now at multiple yardard.
> 
> If I BH tune and I am BH tune at multiple yardage(20 and 35) is my bow tuned?
> 
> Is there ever a need to paper tune or walkback tune if you BH tune at multiple yardage?
> 
> 
> Thanks, I have to make is simple for me or it doesn't sink in!


If you're good at 10, 20, 25, 30, 35, etc. you're good to go. 

Occasionally you'll get "lucky" shooting one or two yardages where your untuned broadheads impact the same as your fieldtips. Hence the need to check it at least two yardages. 

Sounds like you're there.

You could always go "backwards" and paper tune or walkback tune. However, those tuning methods may indicate that you'll likely need to make small adjustments. In essence you'll be un-broadhead-tuning and will have two different point-of-impacts again for your field tips and broadheads.

I've always stopped at broadhead tuning at 60 or 70 yards and haven't gone back to paper or walk back tuning afterwards. I have gone back and shot through paper and it usually shows about a 1/16-1/8" high tear for me...but, I don't move it.


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## wfcjr

Doc said:


> It could be a rest timing issue or something as simple as rotating your nocks. Did you check for fletching contact? Lipstick on the vanes works great for this. Also did you spin your heads to make sure there is no "wobble"?
> If you sense a spine issue, try increasing or decreasing the poundage on the bow to see if there is any change of BH to FP point of impact.


Doc,

Thanks for the suggestions. Will try as soon as possible.


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## poppabear

Excelent info Doc. Thanks.:thumbs_up
I will also begin this evening tuning. :RockOn:


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## fireforthall

I think I know the answer to my question BUT! Is there a differance between left and right handed bows on the movements?


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## michihunter

Only for left/right adjustments which are opposite. Up and down remains the same.


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## Jerry/NJ

poppabear said:


> Excelent info Doc. Thanks.:thumbs_up
> I will also begin this evening tuning. :RockOn:


That is what the Doctor ordered..:tongue::wink: He is good! Good thread bro!

Without detracting from his valuable info, I would like to add some personal tuning things I do/use. I am sure I will leave something out so I might have to come back and add it as I cant think well on an empty stomach :embara: :tongue:

One cheap piece of equipment that will pay huge dividends can be bought by your wife, gf, mom, boyfriend ooops .....is a cheap piece of black fabric from a fabric store. Put this over top of your target(s) whatever it/they may be and as you shoot, you'll really see any flight disturbances on your arrows real easy against the black background. I use this after my inside tuning which I will detail on in a second. Once you're tuned and good to go, you can put aside the black cloth.

Here is how I start with tuning a bow;
Obviously I have researched what arrow/bh will work best and made sure they are straight and squared. I then take one arrow from my collection of bareshaft arrows and begin to paper tune with it. I start at about 6' and move back to 12 yards and settle for nothing less than a perfect bullet hole. I would say 99 out of a 100 times, when I shoot a bareshaft with a perfect bullet hole back to 12 yards, I rarely have to make much if any adjustments outside. 
I then use a fletched arrow and shoot it about 2 or 3' away from the paper to achieve a perfect tear. This tells you if you are getting any fletch contact. 
I then begin to move back and check my tears. If they are perfect, it is time to go outside and move on to further distances. 
I then take my black cloth and put it over a target and shoot and watch the flight.....make any adjustments if needed. I then shoot BH's and watch the flight and make any adjustments if needed which is usually not needed. I then shoot like Doc did in his illustration and close the gap between bh's and field points if there is any. Many times more than not, I dont need adjusting. I continue to group shoot moving back to 40 yards and usually at that range, there is either something wrong or not and good to go. So my version of walk back tuning is different but effective. 
Once I feel my bow is tuned well, I shoot various brands of the same weight BH to impact at the same point. I go from big ole long original Snuffers to small Wacems, etc. As I have said before, when my bow is tuned, I can screw on the same weight BH , spin it, and hit the same hole of any other BH/FT I have used. This should be real easy for you guys that are very good shots! 

In closing, I have found that when I get perfect bullet holes with a bareshaft field tipped arrow, I rarely have much if any other adjustments to make except for my sight.


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## Wingman03

Thanks Doc for the info. I have been working on broadhead tuning for a couple days and haven't been able to get them just right. Hopefully this will help! One other thing, where can you purchase one of those targets! They look like they will hold up better than the block.


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## luvemhot

Boot mistake I think I was using wrong pin I am back to the FP 6 inches high and BH shooting bulls so I need to raise my rest. How dose the FP not move when I move the rest? another words when I raise my rest again wont the FP move higher also?

Ok I have been trying to BH tune and I have them so they are good left to right but as I tried to bring them together up and down I ran into problems. my FP was shooting high about 6 inches and and bulls with the BH. I move my rest up not more than 1/16 and now I am shooting low off the target low with my FP and shooting bull with my BH. not sure what to do now, as I don't want to loose shooting bulls with my BH. Should I adjust my sights yet or lower my rest and get them shooting together then adjust the sights I am doing this at 30 yards.

thanks for the help


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## duker

*Left hand adjustments*

As you started in the oroginal post, the bow is a lefty. I would take this to mean all of the left / right sight adjustments would be opposite for a right hand shooter.


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## Todd_ID

duker said:


> As you started in the oroginal post, the bow is a lefty. I would take this to mean all of the left / right sight adjustments would be opposite for a right hand shooter.



The left/right and up/down adjustments are the same for right or left hand shooters. Don't think of it in terms of moving towards the bow or away; instead only use left and right when you're thinking about it. To visualize and decide which way to move the rest I simply take the scenario to the very extreme in my mind: I say, "If I move my rest all the way to the left, then the broadhead will be way left of the nock when it starts out causing the broadhead to pull the arrow further left from the field point." Also, if you make an adjustment that makes your problem worse, then just move it the opposite way.


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## Doc

duker said:


> As you started in the oroginal post, the bow is a lefty. I would take this to mean all of the left / right sight adjustments would be opposite for a right hand shooter.


Move the BH to the FP no matter if you shoot from the right or wrong side of the bow:wink:


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## Todd_ID

luvemhot said:


> Boot mistake I think I was using wrong pin I am back to the FP 6 inches high and BH shooting bulls so I need to raise my rest. How dose the FP not move when I move the rest? another words when I raise my rest again wont the FP move higher also?
> 
> Ok I have been trying to BH tune and I have them so they are good left to right but as I tried to bring them together up and down I ran into problems. my FP was shooting high about 6 inches and and bulls with the BH. I move my rest up not more than 1/16 and now I am shooting low off the target low with my FP and shooting bull with my BH. not sure what to do now, as I don't want to loose shooting bulls with my BH. Should I adjust my sights yet or lower my rest and get them shooting together then adjust the sights I am doing this at 30 yards.
> 
> thanks for the help


Moving the rest up should move your field point point of impact up a little. It will make more of a difference on the broadheads, though. If moving the rest up caused the field points to drop way down and the broadheads to not change, then I'd guess that you created a rest-drop timing issue or created some sort of fletching contact issue that you may want to check first. 

All this broadhead tuning assumes a few things: 1. you've got straight arrows, 2. you've spin-tested the arrows and broadheads to make sure there is no wobble, and 3. you have no fletching contact that is causing unpredictable flight. Make sure to check these three things before you move your rest. Tuning is basically impossible if you can't get repeatable results. Tuning in heavy wind conditions, for example, will drive you nuts.

Check back in to let us know how it's going. No need to move the sight until you get the rest set for the same point of impact with BH's and FP's, though.


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## luvemhot

they still are not hitting the same point. my FP are high and I am hitting right on with my BH I am thinking of leaving every thing alone until after hunting season as I wont be using my FP until after. Then I will get back with all of you and start from the beginning. As long as I can hit my spot with my BH is that a good plan? I am hitting a within three inches at 40y and better the closer I get
Thanks


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## Todd_ID

luvemhot said:


> As long as I can hit my spot with my BH is that a good plan? I am hitting a within three inches at 40y and better the closer I get
> Thanks


It depends on your desires. I am not satisfied with my equipment until I know that anything that goes wrong in the woods (like poor penetration resulting from poor tuning) is my fault and not the equipment's. If I can control a variable in my hunting, then I will because it's a hard sport without handicapping myself further. It's a personal decision, but my recommendation would be to worry about it now in the off-season rather than let it bite you in the butt on a big buck. If your FP and BH are 3" separated at 40 yards, then you are close to getting the tuning down, anyway, so mabye you should just finish up by going back through Doc's pictures at the start of the thread and follow the same logic process for your setup.


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## Rkhunter01

so what am i missing? basically you moved your sights right?


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## Carnivore1

This is a little off topic but since were talking about Tuning Broadheads...When I buy my hunting arrows my pro shop squares them & spins them with the broadhead. They also align the blades & vanes. I don't think the blades need to match the fletch but what happens is that if I take the head off to change blades, they no longer line up when I screw the head back in. (I always keep the same head on each arrow). They are close but I can never seem to get them back to the same exact spot.This makes me wonder if the head is no longer in the "sweet spot" for a good balance. I hope this makes sense. I don't have my own spinner to check them.


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## Doc

Carnivore1 said:


> This is a little off topic but since were talking about Tuning Broadheads...When I buy my hunting arrows my pro shop squares them & spins them with the broadhead. They also align the blades & vanes. I don't think the blades need to match the fletch but what happens is that if I take the head off to change blades, they no longer line up when I screw the head back in. (I always keep the same head on each arrow). They are close but I can never seem to get them back to the same exact spot.This makes me wonder if the head is no longer in the "sweet spot" for a good balance. I hope this makes sense. I don't have my own spinner to check them.


No reason to line up the fletchings with the blades unless you shoot extremely short arrows:wink:


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## michihunter

> They are close but I can never seem to get them back to the same exact spot.This makes me wonder if the head is no longer in the "sweet spot" for a good balance. I hope this makes sense. I don't have my own spinner to check them.


Sounds as though your insert is turning if you can't get your BH's to seat the same way everytime.


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## Todd_ID

Doc said:


> No reason to line up the fletchings with the blades unless you shoot extremely short arrows:wink:



I agree Doc! That is an old wive's tale from the days gone by of shooting off the shelf of a longbow or past a cushion plunger rest where nothing seemed to work to get our broadheads to fly right. I don't worry about keeping the same heads with each arrow either since the heads are machined identical and the arrows are made identical (in theory, and darn close in practice). Sure, there is a tiny amount of difference, but if you use your photo steps at the top of this thread, then 90 out of 100 heads will work on 90 out of 100 arrows in any random selection. It really does help having the pictures to guide people along. It's not witchcraft to get broadheads flying well, but without guidance, then it may as well be! Thanks, again for your application of knowledge and dedication.


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## fireforthall

Doc said:


> Move the BH to the FP no matter if you shoot from the right or wrong side of the bow:wink:


That's awsome! I am left handed also, but I have a right eye domanance problem so I shoot wrong handed!


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## Bow_Rep

I have a question for the broadhead tuning experts here.

Let us assume a couple of things first. You have already achieved proper arrow flight with an arrow/fieldtip combination that spines out properly and have the proper amount of control on the back of the shaft to overcome steering effects of a fixed blade broadhead up front. 

If you are as properly tuned as you can be at this point with field tips, you are grouping as well as you can possibly shoot and your broadhead of similar weight group at a different POI (but it does group exceedingly well), what is gained by moving the rest to match the field point POI and how does it affect the actual tune that you have already established? 

Other than having both heads impact together obviously, haven't you just taken the bow out of what had previously been a proper tune?


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## Doc

Bow_Rep said:


> I have a question for the broadhead tuning experts here.
> 
> Let us assume a couple of things first. You have already achieved proper arrow flight with an arrow/fieldtip combination that spines out properly and have the proper amount of control on the back of the shaft to overcome steering effects of a fixed blade broadhead up front.
> 
> If you are as properly tuned as you can be at this point with field tips, you are grouping as well as you can possibly shoot and your broadhead of similar weight group at a different POI (but it does group exceedingly well), what is gained by moving the rest to match the field point POI and how does it affect the actual tune that you have already established?
> 
> Other than having both heads impact together obviously, haven't you just taken the bow out of what had previously been a proper tune?


It's all about sensitivity. You won't see minor tuning flaws with field points, they are for lack of a better word tolerant to a degree. BH's are less resistant to tuning flaws. By properly BH tuning your bow, you will increase the efficiency, increase penetration and most likely decrease the noise. There is nothing that says you cannot kill deer if your bow is not BH tuned; however, I need all the advantages I can get:wink:


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## keystonekid

Doc, if you are now tuned at 25 yds. will you have to do the same thing at 40 yds? Just wondering, great instructions!


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## Doc

keystonekid said:


> Doc, if you are now tuned at 25 yds. will you have to do the same thing at 40 yds? Just wondering, great instructions!


Yeah, you need to check it at one other yardages besides 25 (or whichever yardage you start with) preferably at least 10 yards farther. I shoot at 25, 40 and 50, but only go back as far as you can shoot well (hold a group). For example, you could shoot 20 and 35 or 25 and 40.


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## John Doe

Thanks for the info Doc, now I've got some refletching to do 

Just kidding, great info here and I agree on the multiple yardage remark. 
Got things dialed in at 20 yards per Doc instructions, and then backed off to 40 yards, and had to tweak it ever so slightly. 

Thanks again!

John


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## Doc

John Doe said:


> Thanks for the info Doc, now I've got some refletching to do
> 
> Just kidding, great info here and I agree on the multiple yardage remark.
> Got things dialed in at 20 yards per Doc instructions, and then backed off to 40 yards, and had to tweak it ever so slightly.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> John


:thumb: Not so hard is it?:dancing:
Nice job. Now you can feel 100% confident you are ready for skewering season.


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## Redmist

I have a question. I was doing some shooting with FT and BH last night. I just bought a Drenalin and kind of eyeballed the rest. For some reason some of the arrows shot with both FT and BH would do like a barrel roll looking manuver. Is thei some kind of fletching contact?Most of the BH shot a good 3 to 4" high from the FT. Should I just move my rest down?


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## Doc

Redmist said:


> I have a question. I was doing some shooting with FT and BH last night. I just bought a Drenalin and kind of eyeballed the rest. For some reason some of the arrows shot with both FT and BH would do like a barrel roll looking manuver. Is thei some kind of fletching contact?Most of the BH shot a good 3 to 4" high from the FT. Should I just move my rest down?


Are you sure it was a true barrel roll and not just an illusion due to light and the colors of your vanes and/or wraps? Many claim to see freaky arrow flight at times, but find it's just an illusion based on spinning colors and high speed movement.
However if you are concerned about contact issues, put some lipstick (I prefer fire engine red:wink on the edges of your vanes and shoot. Check for lipstick on your cables, riser, rest and shelf...if the lipstick is there, then you have contact issues.


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## Redmist

Well I am pretty sure. I have been know to be wrong on things before. Looks like somebody thru a curve ball out of my bow.


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## Doc

Redmist said:


> Well I am pretty sure. I have been know to be wrong on things before. Looks like somebody thru a curve ball out of my bow.


You can also use spray foot-powder and check for contact that way...it's a bit messier though IMO.


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## Redmist

I can borrow my wifes red lipstick. I will report tomorrow.


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## MOvenatic

Neat illustration on how to properly tune BH and FPs. 

I guess my stupid questions are these. I see that you shot a group of 3 FP. I'm assuming that you shot a group of 3 BHs too? Do you use practice blades or old dull blades and replace them before the season?

I had to read it a couple of times to figure out that the rest was moved first, then the sight.


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## Doc

MOvenatic said:


> Neat illustration on how to properly tune BH and FPs.
> 
> I guess my stupid questions are these. I see that you shot a group of 3 FP. I'm assuming that you shot a group of 3 BHs too? Do you use practice blades or old dull blades and replace them before the season?
> 
> I had to read it a couple of times to figure out that the rest was moved first, then the sight.


I use new broadheads, but if you have dull blades that spin true and don't have any nicks out of them (consistent weight) then those would be fine. I don't shoot a group of 3 broadheads, because I would most likely destroy quite a few shafts. I use one primarily and then spot shoot to confirm things after I have put the FP/BH group back to center x.


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## daver9

Thanks for the tip Doc. I completed the same drill as you described. 

I had 1" groups BH/FP at 20
1 1/2" groups at 30
and right around 2" at 40. 

Then this happened at 40 with the last arrow. 










I think I'm ready to roll. 

Thanks!

Daver


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## cajunhunter

I used 2 BH just to confirm that it is not just the arrow or shot. I got a G5 squaring device coming. I shot 40 yard BH today, In the group with FP. I am very pleased with the results. I tuned at 25, checked at 10, 35 and 40. I think I am pretty much good. I was hoping that the tune would hold out to longer distance, and so far so good. I might go to 50 next time I shoot. The wind was starting to blow today.
I am shooting better than ever thanks to this site. Forcing me to buy a Guardian, then the STS, and the Stealth Stabilizer. I think it is going to be an excellent hunting setup. Especially now that my Hellrazors are tuned. I like the looks of those BH.


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## MOvenatic

Thanks for reply Doc!


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## Wolfman88

*S O S*

Before starting my bh tuneing every thing was great ( thankfully I marked my rest). I shot Bh 6inches low and 4 inches left at 20 yards at 10 yards they were 2 inches left but same elevation. correcting the far left issue was easy. At 10 yards bh and fp fly together. no matter what i cant close that 6 inch gap at 20 yards, Ive raised my rest as much as 3/4 of an inch and my bh still hits 6 inches below fp. What should I be looking for? Set up is 07 bowtech equalizer 58 lb draw @ 26 inces WB rest. Arrows- 26.5 inch maxima250 w/ blazers and 100grain montecs


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## Todd_ID

Biscuits have the unique ability to drive you nuts tuning since they point the arrow at full draw and then massively affect the flight from the rear as the fletchings go through it. It sounds to me like you moved it either too far or in the wrong direction; it's possbile to move it up enough to get the fletching to kick hard off of the bottom of the biscuit which will bounce the nock end up and make the shot fly low. I'd take the rest back to the marked starting point and then move it down 1/16" and see what the broadheads fly like; you may have been shooting decent with a bit of fletching kick before and then the broadheads amplified the effects of the kick to make you think that you needed to move the rest up.


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## Rkhunter01

so instead of changing your sights you move your rest until the bh's and fp's shoot consistent?


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## Todd_ID

That's all it takes. The sight only changes where you point your bow, but the rest changes where the arrow will hit when you point the bow in the same place. 

You're trying to make the broadhead attain the best possible flight characteristics (like a field point already has); this is done by getting the rest set perfectly so the energy of the bow is transferred in a perfectly direct line to the target and not a bit cockeyed. If the broadheads and field points hit the same place, then the energy of the bow is being used at the highest possible efficiency rate, and the broadhead does the least amount of steering from the front of the arrow giving you the best possible accuracy. 

Get the bow performing at its peak by moving the rest, and then you can move the sight to allow you to harness that perfection in flight to hit what you aim at every time. I will warn you, though: a miss from a perfectly tuned bow cannot be blamed on the equipment!


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## Skewerer

Hey guys,

I'm struggling...:embara:

I shoot a Gold Tip 29.5'' 7595 arrow at 285fps in my hunting setup. I recently asked everyone on AT what a good 2 blade broadhead would be and I went with the original style screw-in Magnus (based on the feedback I got). I have shot both my field tips and the broadheads through paper at around 8-10 feet and have perfect bullet holes for both. I then went outside to do some longer range shooting and was disappointed. My field points were hitting bullseyes in fist-sized groups at 45 yards while the broadheads had much larger groups (about pie-plate sized--unacceptable for me). 

I would try this method if I could get my broadheads to group, but they just aren't. Is this a case of fletching contact?? I would think that if I were having contact issues, I wouldn't be shooting bullet holes. A buddy of mine has a high-speed camera that I could use to watch the fletching during the shot if need be.

I HAVE NOT spin tested these arrows to check for wobble. I'm not sure I fully understand why this needs to be done/how to do it/what to look for, etc. PLEASE HELP!! That may or may not be the culprit.

Thanks in advance!!! :tongue:


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## Doc

You can check for fletching contact by putting lipstick on the edges of the vanes, shooting and then checking for signs of this on your riser, rest, cables or shelf. If you cannot hold a group with broadheads then something is suspect. Do you have other heads you can try? Spinning just means exactly that, spin the shafts to see if the broadhead spins true)) or wobbles (). If it wobbles, then you are going to have problems. 
What kind of fletching are you using? If you are not using enough to stabilize, then this could cause large groups also.


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## Redmist

Here is kind of an update for Doc. Since I shoot FOB's I have to bareshaft tune. So I shot arrows through @ 3 yards and again @ 10 yards. Got the rest adjusted accordingly. I wanted to just see, as it was getting dark, what a couple arrows would do now. And aside from being high with the rest changes, my broadheads all flew true at 20 and 40. I have to double check them though tonight against FT. Thanks for the help..


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## Brown Hornet

Rkhunter01 said:


> so instead of changing your sights you move your rest until the bh's and fp's shoot consistent?


Yes....you don't want to move your sight until your broadheads and field points hit together.

GREAT THREAD DOC :wink:


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## Bobmuley

Redmist said:


> Here is kind of an update for Doc. Since I shoot FOB's I have to bareshaft tune...


Take two colors of your wife's, or girlfriend's, or both's, lipstick and put one color on the field tip and a different color on the fob. Should work for paper tuning as you can see the relationship of the front and back of your arrow as it comes off the bow.


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## Skewerer

Doc said:


> You can check for fletching contact by putting lipstick on the edges of the vanes, shooting and then checking for signs of this on your riser, rest, cables or shelf. If you cannot hold a group with broadheads then something is suspect. Do you have other heads you can try? Spinning just means exactly that, spin the shafts to see if the broadhead spins true)) or wobbles (). If it wobbles, then you are going to have problems.
> What kind of fletching are you using? If you are not using enough to stabilize, then this could cause large groups also.


I am shooting 4'' fletching (not sure of brand). I spin tested, and no perceivable wobble.


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## Todd_ID

Skewerer: Is there a chance that you're gripping the bow hand differently subconciously? The Magnus Stingers I've used (100 grain 4-Blade) have all been very good at spinning true and have flown very well; if the center of the groups for the broadheads is the same as the field points, then it's possible that a human-introduced error is correcting a tuning error (i.e., bow hand torque in the correct direction to offset a rest alignment issue). A tuning issue with the rest will give you slightly bigger groups than a well tuned setup with broadheads.

If you're not torquing the bow that you can tell and getting the same POI center on the groups between FP and BH, then the next step to try in getting the tightest possible groups is to fine-tune the tiller. Shoot three groups with your equipment set like it is now, and measure and write down the group size and location of the center of the group. Then tighten the upper limb bolt 1 turn. Write down exactly how you changed the bow, so you can return it to the starting point. Shoot and record another three groups, then return the bow to the starting point (loosen the top bolt 1 turn). Next, from the starting point, tighten the lower limb bolt 1 turn. Record the change, shoot three groups and record, and return bow to starting point. Next loosen the top bolt, record the change, shoot three groups, record, and return bow to the starting point. Next loosen the bottom bolt 1 turn, record the change, shoot three groups, record, and return the bow to the starting point. You can also try loosening both bolts 1 turn: some bows have harmonics that don't allow them to group very well at a certain poundage setting.

One of these changes in tiller will result in tighter groups. You need to shoot three groups with every change to get a good record of what the change actually did to the group sizes to attempt to take shooter error out of the equation. You'll notice that the main points are to record the changes and always return the bow to the starting point before making another change. This keeps you from getting lost on where you were in the tightening/loosening sequence, and you must be able to get it back to the starting point in case that's your best group sizes.

If none of these tiller adjustments give you acceptable results, then it's time to try another broadhead.


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## Redmist

Bobmuley said:


> Take two colors of your wife's, or girlfriend's, or both's, lipstick and put one color on the field tip and a different color on the fob. Should work for paper tuning as you can see the relationship of the front and back of your arrow as it comes off the bow.


LOL you are to funny. She does look on here occasionally so be careful. Is there a need to do it now? I guess it might show contact issues? If I have them of course.


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## Skewerer

Thanks Todd, I'll give this a try.


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## ArrowBuck

*More Questions.....*

OK I'm confused and have a few of questions:

If all broadheads are not created equal (different planing characteristics, different FOC due to length of BH, etc..) and they have different POIs than other BHs from the exact same bow, then how does "tuning" until you get FPs and BHs to group together guarantee the truest arrow flight as defined by "paper tuned bullet holes" at various distances)? Won't different BHs require different final rest positions to get the same POI as FPs (everything else being equal)? And won't those different rest positions affect quality of arrow flight for both BHs and FPs?

If not, then it seems like all we would ever need to do is tune one type of BH to FPs and then be able to screw on any BH after that and be good to go. What am I missing here? Don't different BHs cause the arrow to flex differently off the string due to their unique characteristics and don't those differences translate into different arrow flights and POIs.

Also why do we even care about FPs at all? As hunters, why aren't we just paper tuning with BHs to get best arrow flight (bullet holes at various distances) and then moving our sights to hit where we are aiming? And if BHs are "less tolerant" wouldn't field points naturally group with a tuned BH anyway? I'm not trying to say any of the stuff in this thread is "wrong" because I honestly DON't KNOW much about this stuff. It just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. I want to learn and understand.

Right now my BHs and FPs are hitting at the same height but about 3" apart (left to right) at 44 yards. If I just sight in to my BHs and have good arrow flight, does it matter that my FPs are 3" left. I am practicing with G5 Montec "Pre-Season" BHs so I don't even need FPs.

Thanks in advance for any help with these questions.....!!!


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## Bobmuley

ArrowBuck said:


> ...If all broadheads are not created equal (different planing characteristics, different FOC due to length of BH, etc..) and they have different POIs than other BHs from the exact same bow, then how does "tuning" until you get FPs and BHs to group together guarantee the truest arrow flight as defined by "paper tuned bullet holes" at various distances)? Won't different BHs require different final rest positions to get the same POI as FPs (everything else being equal)? And won't those different rest positions affect quality of arrow flight for both BHs and FPs?


Lets examine three conditions of tuning and what effect they have;

Poorly tuned - These are the ones that are mismatched to the bow and/or have not undergone any tuning to make them better. Broadheads make the condition worse do to "planing". The aerodymic forces only affect those portions of the arrow that the wind "sees" as the broadhead is flying. If the wind "sees" the sides of the blade or the ferrule from poor tuning it will have a significant effect on its arrow flight. Do this experiment and pretend you're the wind. Look exactly straight down the back of your broadhead equipped arrow and see how little the wind has to influence on the front of the head. now turn the shaft a couple degrees and see that there's suddenly alot more blade surface for the wind to have an affect on. 

Well tuned - Those bows that have very little broadhead showing other than the blade, but usually some degree of small tuning error. These are the ones that we can usually get to group very near our fieldtips, but changing broadheads brings a couple different point of impacts into play. Better than nothing, but its not quite perfect. Getting to this point will generally show a "bullet" hole (which is a rough guess imo).

Perfectly tuned - this results in an arrow leaving the bow perfectly straight. There is no broadhead blade showing from the air's point-of-view. Therefore no matter which broadhead you mount on the front (as long as they're perfectly straight) they should hit in the same place as the others.

Some broadheads are different. Those with curved blades for example which throws all that out the window.

Now some will say that the broadheads spinning (from helical or offset fletch) will introduce an airstream to the side of the broadhead blades. They are right. But, the forces on the sides of the blade are vectored and equal. So, they cancel each other out.


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## Wolfman88

Todd_ID said:


> Biscuits have the unique ability to drive you nuts tuning since they point the arrow at full draw and then massively affect the flight from the rear as the fletchings go through it. It sounds to me like you moved it either too far or in the wrong direction; it's possbile to move it up enough to get the fletching to kick hard off of the bottom of the biscuit which will bounce the nock end up and make the shot fly low. I'd take the rest back to the marked starting point and then move it down 1/16" and see what the broadheads fly like; you may have been shooting decent with a bit of fletching kick before and then the broadheads amplified the effects of the kick to make you think that you needed to move the rest up.


Thank you! Ill try that. It realy makes alot of sense since Ive had the same exact problem with 2 other bows


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## Bellows1

Doc, I'm using FOB's with a WB, I've done the lipstick trick and it show I am getting slight contact. My groupings are terrible, any ideas?

Great write up Pal.


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## Todd_ID

Bellows1 said:


> Doc, I'm using FOB's with a WB, I've done the lipstick trick and it show I am getting slight contact. My groupings are terrible, any ideas?
> 
> Great write up Pal.


That's pretty good! It took a couple times through it to decide it's a bit of a spoof! The bad thing is that I shoot the FOB's and didn't catch it the first time! My advice is to take the string off and just shoot off the cables! You'll find that your FOC will change your POI with the FOB off the cables, so make sure to hold the bow horizontal instead of vertical when you shoot. GOOD LUCK!


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## Durzil

I just wanted to post and say thank you for this post. I just got back into bow hunting after a 5 year hiatus and this post would of been wonderful to read a month ago when I was tuning my bow.


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## jlmorasco

*BH Tuning*

Doc, I have the same rest you do and was wondering when you are tuning your BHs, do you raise the rest before you raise it that 1/16"? Will be BH tuning this weekend. 

My setup
Mathews FX (2000) Yeah I know it is old but why mess with success
27.5" draw
Approx 63#
Axis 400's 100 grain tips
Vapor Trail strings
TT Drop Away

Looking to get as precise as I can. 

My sight is an Impact Archery Collector 3 pin
My 20&30 pins are close together, and at 25 yards I seem to be using my 20 yard pin for those shots. Should I sight my 20 yard pin to 30 and go from there?


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## Todd_ID

jlmorasco said:


> Doc, I have the same rest you do and was wondering when you are tuning your BHs, do you raise the rest before you raise it that 1/16"? Will be BH tuning this weekend.
> 
> My setup
> Mathews FX (2000) Yeah I know it is old but why mess with success
> 27.5" draw
> Approx 63#
> Axis 400's 100 grain tips
> Vapor Trail strings
> TT Drop Away
> 
> Looking to get as precise as I can.
> 
> My sight is an Impact Archery Collector 3 pin
> My 20&30 pins are close together, and at 25 yards I seem to be using my 20 yard pin for those shots. Should I sight my 20 yard pin to 30 and go from there?


My input would be that 1. the age of the bow doesn't matter, it's how you shoot it (I shot the same bow from 1989 to 2004), and 2. you don't need to "cock" the rest at the full draw position as you make an adjustment, and 3. precision is fully attainable by any of us unless you handicap yourself by setting an unrealistic goal. Make sure that the movement of the rest doesn't change the timing of the rest (i.e., going up with rest shortens the rest cord and makes the rest come to full draw earlier and consequently dropping out of the way later in the the flight) possibly causing a vane clearance issue. It generally takes moving a rest a long way to introduce vane clearance issues because of moving the rest, though. Once you get through the tuning process (or if you all of a sudden get terrible grouping) check again for vane clearance using foot powder spray or lipstick.

As for pin yardage settings. These are personal setting for each of us. If you're comfortable having no 20 yard pin and expect to shoot game at longer ranges, then there's no problem using a 30 yard pin as your top pin. If your shots won't be over 40 yards and will likely be within 30, however, you may want to keep the 20, 30, 40 setup. The concept of "aim small, miss small" is hard to achieve on a 15 yard shot with a 30 yard pin but is easy with a 20 yard pin. Make sure to think through your likely hunting shot scenarios and set your sight accordingly. 

Keep us posted on how the tuning goes this weekend!


----------



## booger

Will this work the other way around? 

Alright here's what I did:

Sighted my broadheads in a couple weeks ago and moved my sight, since I had not come across this thread. Today I went out and shot my field tips which were obviously not hitting in the same spot and just adjusted the rest until I was hitting pretty much dead center (or at least where I was aiming). I couldn't shoot my broadheads along side them because the range has a policy against shooting broadheads. So my question is when I go to shoot my broadheads will they be off or hitting in the same place?


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## Todd_ID

booger said:


> Will this work the other way around?
> 
> Alright here's what I did:
> 
> Sighted my broadheads in a couple weeks ago and moved my sight, since I had not come across this thread. Today I went out and shot my field tips which were obviously not hitting in the same spot and just adjusted the rest until I was hitting pretty much dead center (or at least where I was aiming). I couldn't shoot my broadheads along side them because the range has a policy against shooting broadheads. So my question is when I go to shoot my broadheads will they be off or hitting in the same place?


Unfortunately you need to do the broadhead tuning while shooting both field points and broadheads. Moving the rest moves the point of impact for both arrows in the same direction, but it moves the broadheads more; therefore, the broadheads will "catch up" to the movement of the field points, at which point your bow is tuned and you can move your sight to adjust the point of impact for both.

Short answer: yes, your broadheads will be different again, sorry! It is possible to accomplish, just takes a little focused time.


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## booger

Todd_ID said:


> Unfortunately you need to do the broadhead tuning while shooting both field points and broadheads. Moving the rest moves the point of impact for both arrows in the same direction, but it moves the broadheads more; therefore, the broadheads will "catch up" to the movement of the field points, at which point your bow is tuned and you can move your sight to adjust the point of impact for both.
> 
> Short answer: yes, your broadheads will be different again, sorry! It is possible to accomplish, just takes a little focused time.


thanks I appreciate the response, guess I'll just have to shoot them at my own target together soon. 

So you are saying shoot until they group together - then move the sight?


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## Todd_ID

booger said:


> thanks I appreciate the response, guess I'll just have to shoot them at my own target together soon.
> 
> So you are saying shoot until they group together - then move the sight?


That's pretty much the summary: shoot groups of each, move rest accordingly, shoot groups of each, move rest accordingly; once the BH and FP groups converge on each other, then you can move the sight to get the groups into the bullseye, and you're ready to hunt!


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## bowfisherman23

that is more than helpful thanks. So if you keep moving the arrow rest in the proper direction eventually the fp and bh will meet and then I adjust my sights. Right?


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## Todd_ID

bowfisherman23 said:


> that is more than helpful thanks. So if you keep moving the arrow rest in the proper direction eventually the fp and bh will meet and then I adjust my sights. Right?


Correct!


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## Proverbs 3:5-6

My BH and FP seemed to move an equal distance. But I'm pooped so I'm taking a break. I'll keep working on it.

To check for fletch contact on drop aways I use Fireplace ashes. Its free, got plenty and wont stink up you bow just before deer season.

Thanks Doc for the great lesson.


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## jfrogg

*Dead on until 40 yards*

I have a Black Ice 60#. 27 inch draw. drop Zone Rest. Beman 400 ICS Hunter. FP dead on at 40 but BH (G5 Strikers) off down left 10". At 30 yards, both are dead on. What is the problem? Is my spine too stiff @ 27" 400 ICS Hunters. Should I do 500s. Or should I mess around with tuning the arrow rest more? DOC PLEASE HELP!!


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## Wolfman88

O.K. after 1 tiny adjustment I destroyed 12 arrows and 12 montecs( shot that close) braodheads ar grouping and flying perfectly buuuuutttt now even though they are in the same spot my fieldpoints are flying crazy and dont group very well. is this normal? should I worry about it? Shoud I just practice w/ braodheads only since I now have 12 that are useless for anything else?


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## jfrogg

*Never Mind DOC*

I have 1" groups now at 40 yards with BH and FP. I'm very happy now. I just moved my nock down and this lined them up. Your info has been very useful so thanks for being a mentor to us all. :wink:


I was in my deer stand just yesterday doing some maintenance and I was held captive by 5 deer that didn't even know I was there in my blue jeans and all smelly. I just sat still and watched for 1 1/2 hours for fear of spooking them and they would be less likely to come back in a month. Now I will be able to take that 40 yard shot with confidence.


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## Doc

jfrogg said:


> I have 1" groups now at 40 yards with BH and FP. I'm very happy now. I just moved my nock down and this lined them up. Your info has been very useful so thanks for being a mentor to us all. :wink:
> 
> 
> I was in my deer stand just yesterday doing some maintenance and I was held captive by 5 deer that didn't even know I was there in my blue jeans and all smelly. I just sat still and watched for 1 1/2 hours for fear of spooking them and they would be less likely to come back in a month. Now I will be able to take that 40 yard shot with confidence.


Thanks for taking the time to read and work through this. It sounds like you are ready to rock and already have a hot spot. Looking forward to the trophy pictures.:cheers:


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## 07 brute

This is the first time I've tried this and it works great, I think. I do have one question about distance, sould I be hitting at the same elevation at 50yrds. Like I am at 20yrds. I could cost myself some serious money at twenty they hit exactly the same, but at 30yrds. the field point hits about 1/2"-1" low. At 40 that turns into 1.5"-2", at 50yrds their hitting 3"-4" low, windage is right on the money but the elevation has me stumped but should I even be worried about that?


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## Doc

If your field points are hitting lower than your BH's...you need to move your rest down ever so slightly and you'll be golden if you tend to take 30+ yard shots.


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## 07 brute

Doc said:


> If your field points are hitting lower than your BH's...you need to move your rest down ever so slightly and you'll be golden if you tend to take 30+ yard shots.


Am I correct in thinking that moving the nock point up work the same. I have a QAD Ultra rest and it's down as far as it will go without hitting the shelf.


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## Doc

07 brute said:


> Am I correct in thinking that moving the nock point up work the same. I have a QAD Ultra rest and it's down as far as it will go without hitting the shelf.


Moving the nock up or the rest down gives the same result...yes you are correct.


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## solohunter

I read Docs' thread also, thanks....funny but prior to last season I had a Rage practice head, I wanted to see how it flew. I borrowed it from a bow shop. So i put it on my GT xt 5575 and shot it out of my Liberty. about 1-1 1/2" to the left. Put my trusty Sidewinder on and dead on. My hunting buddy told me to just move my sight to the left a smidge,I did not want to...did not even try it....he is supposed to bring his practice rage up this weekend and I am going to shoot it out of my Guardian and see how it flies. do most guys/bowhunters slightly adjust if they are that close? am i too picky? My Guardian shoots great despite me:wink:Solohunter


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## cajunhunter

The only thing that I am confused about is this. If my bow was paper tuned and shooting good groups with FP. I then start shooting BH but they are not hitting same spot. I adjust my rest to solve this problem and now FP and BH hit same spot at multiple distances. Do I need to think about any other type of tuning or am I good? How does this type of tuning take into considertation different BH that fly different? If I BH tune with a fixed blade like Hellrazor will it be tune for other BH?


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## Doc

solohunter said:


> ISo i put it on my GT xt 5575 and shot it out of my Liberty. about 1-1 1/2" to the left. Put my trusty Sidewinder on and dead on. My hunting buddy told me to just move my sight to the left a smidge,I did not want to...did not even try it....he is supposed to bring his practice rage up this weekend and I am going to shoot it out of my Guardian and see how it flies. do most guys/bowhunters slightly adjust if they are that close? am i too picky? My Guardian shoots great despite me:wink:Solohunter


Did you try it at multiple distances? If it's 1 1/2" to the left at one distance, it may be farther at another.


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## Doc

cajunhunter said:


> Do I need to think about any other type of tuning or am I good? How does this type of tuning take into considertation different BH that fly different? If I BH tune with a fixed blade like Hellrazor will it be tune for other BH?


No other type of tuning to think about. I have found once I am tuned with 1 head, the others are good to go as well. There are some exceptions due to wind-planing of the larger heads out of higher speed bows, but for the most part any quality head will fly true. If you find one that doesn't, try rotating the nock slightly and see if this corrects the problem.


----------



## cajunhunter

Thanks Doc.


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## robbates

Doc,

First of thank you for this thread. I am going to go home tonight and attempt to tune my broadheads using this thread. Would I be correct in saying that once you have centered your broadhead vertically with your field point anywhere on the target, that I should then chase the field point with my broadhead up or down until they are grouping anywhere on the target and then move my sight to get the group to bull? It seems to me that is what you've done in the 4th and 5th illustration? Right now my broadheads are shooting low and right about 6 inches off of my field points at bull. I am going to begin by moving my rest (whisker biscut) left and up correct? 

Thanks in advance for any replies... 

Rob


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## Doc

robbates said:


> Doc,
> 
> First of thank you for this thread. I am going to go home tonight and attempt to tune my broadheads using this thread. Would I be correct in saying that once you have centered your broadhead vertically with your field point anywhere on the target, that I should then chase the field point with my broadhead up or down until they are grouping anywhere on the target and then move my sight to get the group to bull? It seems to me that is what you've done in the 4th and 5th illustration? Right now my broadheads are shooting low and right about 6 inches off of my field points at bull. I am going to begin by moving my rest (whisker biscut) left and up correct?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any replies...
> 
> Rob


Rob you are correct. Let us know how you make out, go with small adjustments.


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## robbates

Thanks :wink: I'm very excited right now..


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## solohunter

Doc said:


> Did you try it at multiple distances? If it's 1 1/2" to the left at one distance, it may be farther at another.


Yes multiple yardages...
10, 20, 30 yards....Solo


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## teambringit1

doc, i finally got out to BH tune my bow tonight...things went well. I was dead on at 25, but at 35, i was 3 inches low. I raised my rest a bit and both hit the same....about 3 inches high. I moved my sight and was good to go. I will test to 50 to be sure later....went back to 25 and still hitting exactly the same...great thread...really a big deal to help us make more ethical and exacting shots!


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## Kimerazor

Doc,

Very nice explanation. If you would, please help me understand this process. I had been shooting a Hoyt Razortech for four years at 70#. In August, I bought a Mathews Drenalin and the draw weight is 72-73#. I used the same arrows and both have drop away rests. My Hoyt would shoot BH's, FP's, or expandables all in the same spot without any tuning. My new Mathews shoots right by 12 inches at 20 yards with BH's. I have been shooting FP's from 20 - 40 yards and can consistently hit a circle smaller than a pop can (I live on a farm and this is the best entertainment). I don't understand how changes can be made and match the two different points?


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## Doc

12 inches at 20 yards is quite a substantial difference. This leads me to believe that your centershot is off considerably or your idler wheel lean is off considerably.
Be sure your bow is set to factory specs and then move your rest so the broadheads move towards the field points. I would start with a 1/8" adjustment at first.


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## bowfisherman23

well I tuned my field points to my broadheads. Worked great. Thanks again. I probably would of been ok shooting a hair to the right but dead on gives me that extra confidence when the big moment arrives.


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## Doc

bowfisherman23 said:


> well I tuned my field points to my broadheads. Worked great. Thanks again. I probably would of been ok shooting a hair to the right but dead on gives me that extra confidence when the big moment arrives.


We need every advantage we can get....sometimes a hair off is the difference between a full freezer and tag soup.


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## Kimerazor

Doc said:


> This is a common misconception and area of frustration for many. This is why I posted a step-by-step instruction of what I moved when. The whole goal to BH tuning is to get the same point of impact (POI) for your BH and FP's. Therefore moving your sight is not going to tune anything. You adjust your rest until your BH and FP's are grouping together. It doesn't matter if they are hitting where you are aiming (aiming at center X the whole time), only if they are hitting together. Once you get them to hit together, you are BH tuned and now it's time to set your sight for their POI. After you get them to group together and adjust your sight to the proper POI...you are done...good-to-go. Forget paper. If you go back to paper, you are just going to have to BH tune again. If you are going to paper tune, do this to get things close before BH tuning.
> Make sense?


Doc,

I posted a question earlier that you answeed with this reply. Sorry for not reading thoroughly.

Thank you,

Paul


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## archer1983

thanks doc,

I will be trying this today...

I will let you know how it works out for me! :thumbs_up


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## jlmorasco

I did the same thing on Friday with a buddy of mine. The guy is great and I used the info from this post too. Thanks Doc


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## Wolfman88

*I found the problem I think*



Wolfman88 said:


> O.K. after 1 tiny adjustment I destroyed 12 arrows and 12 montecs( shot that close) braodheads ar grouping and flying perfectly buuuuutttt now even though they are in the same spot my fieldpoints are flying crazy and dont group very well. is this normal? should I worry about it? Shoud I just practice w/ braodheads only since I now have 12 that are useless for anything else?


After looking closely at the montecs I noticed the bulk of thier wieght is in the tip. The broadhead is slightly more than a half inch longer than my fielpoint.I tinkered with other arrows and found out they do move the f.o.c. farther foward. on longer arrows is barely noticable but on my 26.5inch maxima250 the f.o.c. moved a full 3/4 inch foward expaining the 6 inch low impact. I reset my rest and shot some 100grai fieldpoints and 85 grain montecs and point of impact was the same. It seems the the shorter ad ligter the arrow te greater the change.


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## alaskan100

*Thank you Doc*

I want to say thanks to you Doc. I followed your instructions, which showed me that my rest was causing some contact, and other issues. A quick replacement of the rest (7 days before season I might add) a little fine tuning and TA DA! Broad heads and field points are shooting in a group the size of a quarter consistantly out to 40 yards. Thanks again Doc.
Now all I have to do is get a Moose within range and I will be eating good all winter.


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## MN Marauder

*Great Post*

This is very helpful! Definitely deserves sticky status. I finally understand broadhead tuning.


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## StrutStopper

I noticed that moving your nock point up or down isn't something you did at all. Would there ever be a situation to move your nock point? If I recall, when i first tuned my bow following the Easton's Tuning Guide I made some nock point adjustments. 

Different note, I had all kinds of trouble this year with my muzzy 4 blades. Didn't change anything from last year, but some heads flew fine and others took a dive. I found 4 heads that grouped well with field points at 30 yards and those are what will be in my quiver with some freshly sharpened blades. I don't know if I somehow damaged the heads to make them fly funny, but it was an eye opener. From now on, I will make sure I shoot the head arrow combinations I intend to hunt with to avoid any unpleasant surprises during crunch time. One of my first projects after I move into my new place will be to make an arrow spinner too...


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## cajunhunter

I was pretty good and had to replace my cable slide to a saunders. For some reason I am back to my same old situation. BH shooting Right. About 2-3". I move the rest but it seems that they never quite line up. I am shooting a Guardian with 26.5" A/C Super Slims 400. According to Easton that is a weak spine reaction. I thought I would be on the stiff side. Is it possible I have a weak spine and that is why I am strugling with getting the bh to line up?


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## danceswitharrow

How I remember it is. Wherever your broadheads are hitting in relation to your fieldpoints, move your rest the opposite direction to bring them closer together.
BH lower than FP = raise rest 
BH highter than FP = lower rest
BH left of FP = Move rest right
BH right of FP = move rest left


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## Hagerty Hollow

*ok a little help please!!*

I shot my strikers tonight and at 20 yards they are right with my FP's dead in the bull but at 30 yards my FP's stay in the bull but my strikers hit 2" right and 3"s high. What is my remedy for this?? Thanks


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## PSDeerHunter

stupid question but i will ask? when you are shooting are you always shooting at the center of the target .Then make adjustments from where the broadheads hits? but you always aim at the center. Or are you shooting the fp first then trying to group the bh with the Fp


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## teambringit1

Hagerty Hollow said:


> I shot my strikers tonight and at 20 yards they are right with my FP's dead in the bull but at 30 yards my FP's stay in the bull but my strikers hit 2" right and 3"s high. What is my remedy for this?? Thanks


treat it as if the 20 didn't happen...go through the normal tuning procedure and you will still be on at 20 after you move your rest down and to the left a bit. 

After you get your fp and bh hitting in the same spot, you then just move your windage and elevation to match the poi with your sight. 

The 20 will be on the money, no problems there!


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## StrutStopper

PSDeerHunter said:


> stupid question but i will ask? when you are shooting are you always shooting at the center of the target .Then make adjustments from where the broadheads hits? but you always aim at the center. Or are you shooting the fp first then trying to group the bh with the Fp



Always shoot for the center of the target.


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## cajunhunter

What is the maximum amount someone would move their rest (left or Right) during BH tuning. I installed my new cable slide and now I cannot get my BH tune back. If I move the rest too much I know I am going to not be anywhere close to center anymore. I am right no matter what. My BH never shoot left or dead on anymore. Even with the original slide they were on, but during the process they never went left. But it was odd as I had to move the rest more right to line things up not left. I think I need stiffer arrows but I tried taking up to 3 turns of the poundage and it didn't seem to solve the problem. Should I give up? I have put lots of hours into this now, and I feel I am at the same point just right. Anyone else have this problem or is it just me. Shooting Guardian, 70#, Limb Driver Rest, A/C SS 400. with 100 gr heads, Hellrazors, and Montecs.


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## Don Schultz

*Excellent*

Another heads up, make sure your arrows have enuf spine!! Too stiff is better than too floppy. Floppy arrows are just to variable to get decent groups. I am shooting Beman carbons that are rated one size to stiff by their website. But I think my long draw length makes them about right.

I've been doing the same thing as Doc for years. Doc has made it easy for you to understand the sequence. I'm amazed that some just glossed over the careful detail to ask questions already answered in his first handful of posts. READ people!!!

It works because you get the more aerodynamically stable fp and less stable bh arrows hitting the same place. Once you do that, paper tear, walk back, etc. all become moot for a hunting bow.

I came up with the idea reading old Chuck Adams tuning advice. He really likes to tune with a mix of bare shafts and fletched arrows, working to merge the groups in the same way. I realized the fixed blade bh arrows and fp arrows created the same situation.

Don't get me wrong. Creep tuning a 2 cam, and/or following Easton's tuning guide are worthwhile with fp arrows to tighten your groups to the max with fp's. 

But you then use Doc's method to MERGE THE GROUPS!!. You will end up with a fine tuned hunting bow.

Thanks again Doc. Beautiful work, and a real gift to the members of Archerytalk.


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## Don Schultz

StrutStopper said:


> I noticed that moving your nock point up or down isn't something you did at all. Would there ever be a situation to move your nock point? If I recall, when i first tuned my bow following the Easton's Tuning Guide I made some nock point adjustments.
> ..


Moving the rest is easier for most of us shooting a release these days. Most fingers shooters have the height of the rest fixed by the Berger button hole so they must move the knock point. 

IMO, IF you are shooting release with a launcher style rest, center the nocking point 1/8" above the threaded hole that the rest mounts to, and leave it there.


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## Don Schultz

StrutStopper said:


> I had all kinds of trouble this year with my muzzy 4 blades. Didn't change anything from last year, but some heads flew fine and others took a dive. I found 4 heads that grouped well with field points at 30 yards and those are what will be in my quiver with some freshly sharpened blades. I don't know if I somehow damaged the heads to make them fly funny, but it was an eye opener. From now on, I will make sure I shoot the head arrow combinations I intend to hunt with to avoid any unpleasant surprises during crunch time. One of my first projects after I move into my new place will be to make an arrow spinner too...


Yes spinning the arrows will likely help you figure out the problem. I use a G5 ASD to true up the face of the aluminum inserts. 

BTW, I find that a couple of strokes of the Trocar tip on a diamond stone, just to make the edge brite yields much better penetration in foam. Don't take to much metal off, just touch them up. :set1_applaud:


----------



## bumper

This post will surely help hunters tuning their broadheads...but am I missing something here? I added up all the 1/16 inch right and up movements. Doc ended up moving his rest 5/8" right and 9/16" up....no way....either something is wrong here or I am misreading something.


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## bumper

sorry, I think I see my misunderstanding...the moves are in bold print!!! duh!!! my mistake!!!


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## The Phantom

*Thanks*

 Great post. Looks like I'l be doing some fine tuning Thursday. Too bad I have to work this weekwnd, so won't make it out 'til Mon morning.
Anyone getting extra doe tags?


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## Nighttrout

*Thank you Doc*

I just wanted to say thank you for putting this post up! I was a little unsure at first. So I marked my rest before I started so if things got out of hand I could go back. It took me a little longer to do than it did you but I finally got it and I cant believe it!! When it was all said and done I was shooting one arrow with a field tip on it and one with a fixed blade broadhead on it at 40 yards and hitting side by side!! I never thought it it was possible I just resighted in every year for broadheads then back to field tips for indoor league after hunting season. Thanks again great post!!


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## smbmd

*Broadhead tuning*

Thanks for the informative post. I was wondering, if your bow is tuned properly, ie: paper/walk back etc, shouldn't your FT and BH hit in exactly the same place? if not, could you help me understand why not?

Thanks again and sorry for the silly question.


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## LASTREBEL74

1 Quick Question. My Bh Is Hitting 6-8 Inches Higher Than My Fp, Should I Move The Rest Up Or Down?


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## Don Schultz

LASTREBEL74 said:


> 1 Quick Question. My Bh Is Hitting 6-8 Inches Higher Than My Fp, Should I Move The Rest Up Or Down?


It is best for you to carefully re-read the tutorial above. The answer is very clear.


----------



## Doc

Nighttrout said:


> I just wanted to say thank you for putting this post up! I was a little unsure at first. So I marked my rest before I started so if things got out of hand I could go back. It took me a little longer to do than it did you but I finally got it and I cant believe it!! When it was all said and done I was shooting one arrow with a field tip on it and one with a fixed blade broadhead on it at 40 yards and hitting side by side!! I never thought it it was possible I just resighted in every year for broadheads then back to field tips for indoor league after hunting season. Thanks again great post!!


Glad to hear another Success Story--->:archer:
It's all about confidence in your rig and doing your best to get the job done.
Nice work:thumb:


----------



## Doc

smbmd said:


> Thanks for the informative post. I was wondering, if your bow is tuned properly, ie: paper/walk back etc, shouldn't your FT and BH hit in exactly the same place? if not, could you help me understand why not?
> 
> Thanks again and sorry for the silly question.


No, I think this have been mentioned in several posts here, but BH's will present tuning flaws much better than field points. The design differences make BH's less resistant to minor tuning issues.

Paper tune/walk back tune and you'll be close. I know some can bare shaft paper tune extensively and then have very little movement of their BH and FP's.


----------



## Doc

LASTREBEL74 said:


> 1 Quick Question. My Bh Is Hitting 6-8 Inches Higher Than My Fp, Should I Move The Rest Up Or Down?


Please look over the first posts in this thread and this will help you understand the process. If you are asking the above question, then you misunderstood or did not understand. To answer your question though....down.


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## fastcars

*doc-need help*

your original thread looks like it works great, but i have a somewhat domb question. i am using a whisker bis that i can not move up or down due to the fact that it would tilt some what. am i to assume when you say to move the rest i could move my nock the opposite way to come out with the same results. and another one, am i corect in thinking that after the initial set up of my bow i should be able to use your methode of tuning and forget about the walk back and paper, if in fact the arrows i am using are correct.
easton axis st 340,30 in arrow,29 in draw, 63 pound mathews sb xt
hope this not a waiste of your time thanks


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## Nighttrout

*Is it just me?*

Please tell me their is someone out their that thinks the same way I do? I dont care if I have a high right tear low left tear or any other tear for that matter! I can hit the same spot with a fixed blade broadhead that I can hit with a field tip at forty yards without moving my sights!! What could you possible gain from paper tunning after results like that?


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## RiverMan

Very cool Doc, thank you for sharing. I have two questions: 

1. Have you ever found that no amount of tweaking will get the BH and FP to impact in the same place? 

2. What if after moving the rest to adjust for the same POI you lose proper arrow flight? As archers we generally set our bows up initially for centershot. If you start moving things around to make the BH and FP impact in the same place it seems it you may very likely lose proper arrow flight in the process. 

thanks. 

RM


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## Todd_ID

RM:
I've found that anytime I've had problems with getting the same point of impact the problem has been me and not the equipment. Frustration is common on tuning days when you've had too much coffee (for example) and cannot shoot your normal groups that day. The main thing to check if this is the case for you is to see if you are on the borderline of being underspined. I have arrows that shoot 100 grain field points very well and will not shoot 100 grain broadheads at all since the field points are more forgiving of spine issues than the broadheads. I dropped down to an 85 grain field point and broadhead on those arrows, and the problem was solved.

Getting the broadheads and field points to fly to the same point is done to achieve proper arrow flight. Improper arrow flight is defined as an arrow flight that will allow a broadhead to steer the arrow from the front: i.e., the arrow is not starting out its flight by pointing directly at the target and the broadhead is allowed to plane in flight and steer the arrow until the fletching takes over the steering. Field points don't magnify these problems nearly as bad as broadheads will, so getting the broadheads and field points to hit in the same place is the definition of proper arrow flight. When the non-problem-magnifying field points hit at the same place as the problem-magnifying broadheads, then there are no problems to magnify, and you have achieved perfect flight.


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## Don Schultz

RiverMan said:


> Very cool Doc, thank you for sharing. I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Have you ever found that no amount of tweaking will get the BH and FP to impact in the same place?
> 
> 2. What if after moving the rest to adjust for the same POI you lose proper arrow flight? As archers we generally set our bows up initially for centershot. If you start moving things around to make the BH and FP impact in the same place it seems it you may very likely lose proper arrow flight in the process.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> RM


RM, I will address these points in reverse order. 

First number 2. Arrows that are not flying well don't group well. So it is impossible to have well merged groups and crappy arrow flight. Further, IMO giving to much creedence to paper tuning tears as defining good arrow flight is a mistake. Merging the groups may yield a less than perfect paper tuning tear, but the snapshot of arrow position shown by paper tuning is simply not Gospel but a starting point.


Using the method Doc has laid out for us here, when I couldn't get the groups to merge quickly, I've had one of two problems.

1. Hopelessly underspined arrows. (Caused by me trying to be to cheap. :iamwithstupid: Haven't had this problem for years.) 

2. Previously undetected arrow contact with the bow. Oddly enough, this year, I had a bow shooting the most perfect paper tear I've ever seen yet I couldn't get groups to merge. Sure enough, lipstick testing revealed the faintest touch of the down cock vane against my drop away rest. A fletching change, which resulted in lighter tail weight (thus softer spined and faster) arrows seemed the culprit. I cleaned up the drop away rest timing, and raised the arrow slightly to a higher point above the shelf @ full draw. This fixed my problem, and fp/bh groups merged quickly.

One can get nice fp groups with some light and consistent rest/riser contact, but broadhead arrows just won't fly well in the same conditions and will NEVER group with the fp arrows.

I find the merged groups always yield good flying arrows, and a single practice shot with a field point results in a quick check of my hunting bow's readiness to take an animal cleanly.

:RockOn:


----------



## RiverMan

Thank you both Don and Todd for answering my questions.....I very much appreciate it!!

regards, 

RM


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## myrmidon

*X cellent!*

Now that's what I call real life tuning ! 
not something done in laboratory method ! great article !!!
THANX:darkbeer:


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## Qiro

Nice post, and a nice discussion, I like it.
I have always moved my rest towards the FP when looking at the BH POI, as Doc`s explanation.
BUT, one thing come to my mind when I read the posts from some people. The BH arrow must still be tuned, e.g. du your BH setup group ok, is it possible to make the combination; arrow, BH, fletching?, and I take for certain that the weight on this setup is the same as for FP setup.

It should be evidently that you must select a feather / vane that actually manages to stabilize the BH of your choice before tuning can occur. 
If not, you might not be able to move the POI of the BH towards the FP.


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## Todd_ID

Qiro,
This tuning is based on several assumptions: that you have checked to insure that your broadheads spin properly on the arrows and do not wobble when spun, that your arrows are properly spined for your setup, that you are shooting the same weight field points and broadheads, and that your fletching is adequate for steering a broadhead. 

Once these requirements are satisfied, then you will have broadhead-tipped arrows that will group well with each other. Then you can begin Doc's tuning steps to achieve perfect arrow flight, and then move the sights to make the perfect flight hit the center of the target with either broadheads or field points.


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## jday112

I'm ready. Stands are hung and the deer are there...just gotta make sure the broad heads are shooting straight...first year with the guardian.


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## Don Schultz

*Original Source?*

I can't know for sure who invented this fine tuning method, but, thinking about it as a result of this thread I remembered how I first learned it.

Mike Strandlund of Bowhunting World Magazine published it as part of a single page article in the early 90s. I've been doing it since then.


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## ARshooter07

mine was easy. G5 montec. Screw'em in and shoot'em. 292fps- dead on- 40yds. Same as FP.


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## Gothmog

I don't get it. Been trying to broadhead tune for at least a month, and keep going back to paper tune because it isn't working for me. I move my rest small increments, and my field points move the same amount, the same direction as my broadheads, and never line up. What gives? I have no hair left to pull out.


Forgot to add, trying to tune my new bow: Bear instinct and muzzy 3 blade heads.


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## Todd_ID

Gothmog,
I'd guess one of two problems that you're seeing to be the culprit in your troubles. Underspined arrows can be as frustrating as you could ever imagine, and this is one possibility. Fletching contact, however slight, will cause your problems, also (and the result of the contact will manifest itself just as you described). Try putting some bright lipstick on the vanes and shooting to see if the fletching is hitting the rest, cables, sight or riser. If you get some contact, then try turning the nock a little and repeat the test.

A distant third option is that I've never had very much luck getting the original 3 blade Muzzy to spin true or group well together. This is just my personal experience, and I'm the only voice that I've ever heard with any problems with them; many others have had great experiences with them. Their newer design in the MX-3 has worked well, though.


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## Don Schultz

*I agree. Very likely very slight vane contact.*

I had the experience just this year after changing to Blazers.

I must also say I have heard of grouping problems with the 3 blade Muzzys. IMO the blades don't get consistently in the right position although the ferrules are as good as the 4 blade.

I had the good fortune to "standardize" on the Muzzy 90 early on and have nothing but good results.


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## Zhunter1

OUTSTANDING information!!!!:wav:

I just read this whole thread. Very good info. Now I just need my new bow to arrive so I can get started.


Thanks to all, but especially to DOC!!!


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## ultramax

Why is it that after you move the rest to the right your field tips dont ever move to the right?


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## sigfla

Well I got my BH's hitting with my FP's finally. I was showing a weak spine reaction the last few days. My groupings were good but my BH's just kept hitting right of my FP's. I got the 2 close by moving my rest 2/16 to the left but when looking down the bow it seemed my arrow was pointed way off to the left of centershot. I am shooting a mathews Drenalin and QAD HD rest. I have no fletching contact and was using 4 inch feathers.

I decided to drop my weight down from 64.9 to 63.8 and that brought my groups together. Ontarget 2 showed my spine as dead center of the scale so I was hesitant to drop my weight based on the reaction. Also the position of my rest being so far from factory center was just driving me crazy. 

Anyone else shooting a Drenny that far left of center? Would my dominant left eye have an affect as I am shooting right handed with my left eye shut?


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## Don Schultz

*Empirical results are more important than charts.*



cajunhunter said:


> ...I am back to my same old situation. BH shooting Right.....According to Easton that is a weak spine reaction. I thought I would be on the stiff side.


Asumming a careful check for rest/bow contact is clean, yes it is a weak spine reaction. You bow is noted for its high energy level. The spine charts always are very general, greatly affected by fletching weight, tip weight, and bow energy curves. 

I suggest the easiet way to confirm the spine issue is to start dropping draw weight 1LB at a time to see if the groups then merge up. When/If they do merge, you can decide to either figure a way to shoot a stiffer arrow at the higher weight, or just shoot the lower weight.

Usually the lower weight is the most economical and perfectly acceptable. Only those on the very low end of KE requirements need consider changing arrows.


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## Don Schultz

*Read the beginning of thread!!!!!*



Hagerty Hollow said:


> I shot my strikers tonight and at 20 yards they are right with my FP's dead in the bull but at 30 yards my FP's stay in the bull but my strikers hit 2" right and 3"s high. What is my remedy for this?? Thanks


Doc did a great job of explaining the process up front in this thread. Your answers are there already.  Why do you need your own special answer?


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## jonrobinson

*New archer question, please help.*

I have read the directions for broadhead tuning but I just do not understand this concept.

Currently my broadheads are shooting about 3" to the right at 20yrds compared to my fieldpoints.

*If I move my rest to the left to correct how does this not also move the fieldpoint impact to the right?*

I understand this is how to correct, but since I just got my bow I really do not want to tinker with it during hunting season without understanding cause and effect.

Also, will this work with a Wiskerbiscuit?

Thanks for your help and patience!

Jon


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## Todd_ID

Jon,
You are correct in assuming that moving the rest moves the point of impact for the field point groups also. The key to this tuning method is that the broadheads will plane when shot out of an untuned bow, but field points are much more tolerant of an improper rest position (they don't steer the arrow from the front). The whole point of this tuning is that moving the rest moves the broadhead groups more than the fieldpoint groups, and the point where the two groups merge is the definition of a well-tuned bow. At this point you move your sights to get the groups into the center of your target.

The theory applies to a WB rest also, but they can be a bit frustrating to tune since you are dealing with a rest that is steering the arrow from the front and the back as it is shot through the rest. The steps are the same, but it is very easy to mistakenly compensate for improper initial alignment when flecthing-slap on the rear if the arrow is doing more of the steering; (it is possible to move the rest in the wrong direction an get the intended result and still have poor arrow flight, if that makes sense). The case that you are talking about sounds for all the world like you need to move the rest left, but the only way to know if this is correct on a WB is either using a laser setup device or trial and error shooting. You can try moving the rest 1/8" left and shoot at 20, 30, 40 yards to see how the groups are moving at the different distances. If the resulting groups are not better, then you can move it the other way and see how the groups stack up. Good Luck!


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## jonrobinson

*Thanks Todd, more info....*

Thanks for expalining Todd.
The bow was setup, tuned and laser checked when I bought it.

To make things a little more complicted:

I am shooting 85 grn field points that hit dead on.
The broad head that is giving me trouble shooting right is a Magnus Stinger 85 grain with bleeder blades. This head is "supose" to hit dead on with field points but hits consistantly to the right (but groups super tight).

Out of desperation I tried some Muzzy 100 grain 3 blades and they hit right with my field points. So do some Montec G5 85 grains that I tried in the past, but they were not sharp enough for my taste.

So, if the Muzzy's hit with the field points and so do Montec's, but the Stinger's (by far have the largest blade surface) hit to the right, is the bow really "out of tune" or is it just that blade design? I really want to use the Stingers but I do not have the confidance to "mess with" my bow's setup just to get them to hit correct. I have only had the bow for 2 weeks and I am afraid I might not be able to get it back straight if I mess with it.

Sorry for the long rant, I just want some imput from others who know more than me.

Thanks!

Jon


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## Todd_ID

Jon,
If they did the laser tuning setup for you, then you should be pretty darn close. Any of the heads you mentioned are on the short list for the best heads around. If the Muzzy's and the Montec's fly great for you and group well at several different yardages, then I'd say to leave it alone and use one of them until after the season when you've got time to play with it. Like you said the Magnus' are great heads, also, and they will group as well as any head, so don't give up on them. There is a thread on AT about sharpening the Montecs to perfection in an easy way, so don't give up on those either, since they are probably the toughest heads out there. With season here, and your level of experience for now, I'd say the safe play is to stick with something that you've seen work with your own eyes. You need the confidence of knowing that you can hit what you're aiming at when you're out there hunting. Once the season is over you can continue learning by tinkering with the bow. Good Luck!


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## jonrobinson

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the input!


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## t-man71

*my experience...*

I tried following the guidance on tuning this afternoon. My FPs were grouping higher than my BHs (Muzzy 4-blade 100 grain) so I moved the rest (a whisker biscuit) up. But the FPs seemed to react to the rest adjustments more than the BHs, with the result being that the POI of the two kept getting further apart. Finally out of desperation I thought, "Why not move the rest in the direction of the BH POI and see what happens?" Well, what do you know, IT WORKED! After another 20-30 minutes I had my BHs and FPs hitting together at 20, 25, and 30 yards.

Is there a reason why it worked out this way for me? Or did I mis-read the guidance in the first place?

Either way, I am just thrilled to finally have consistency between my FPs and BHs.


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## smbmd

Hey Doc, Thaks for the great thread on tuning. One question remains for me...do you use the same arrows for FP and BH's by switching back and forth or do you just assume the arrows are all going to fly the same? And to summarize, I think, after you get the FP/BH shooting in the same place, then , and only then do you adjust your point of impact by adjusting the sight?? Cause a lot of people I have seen just get their FP shooting X's and then just move their sight to bring the BH to the X..obviously the FP won't be shooting "on" any more but they don't seem to care for hunting..I would love to understand the logic behind your efficient system!! And one last "dumb" question. If you're hunting and your BH are hitting right where you are aiming, who cares if the bow is tuned or not???? I am just learning and trying to understand the correct way..so thanks for your patience...


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## OKhunter

smbmd, if the broadheads are hitting where you aim, but the arrow isn't stable in flight, fishtailing, you won't get as much penetration. If the bow is tuned then your arrow flight should be more stable resulting in more penetration.


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## ARLong

Excellent thread! 

We first began BH tuning by using the rest when the TM-hunters first came out in Micro-adjust. I was using a 3D Rover. It was amazing, how easy it turned a frustrating process into an enjoyable one. Over the years, I have have found some BH's to simply not fly with my FP's. And not always the same from setup-to-setup. But for the most part, it's the ticket for a BH setup. It doesn't lie to you. I'm finding over the past 2 years, that it works excellent with the WB rest as well.


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## Duck65

This thread saved my hunt. Last season my Slick Tricks shot exactly like my fieldpoints so I didn't think I needed to shoot my tricks at target before this season, wrong!!!! Missed a buck at 12 yards. Go to the house and shoot Tricks at target 12 inches high and 12 inches to left of my fieldpoints. I had my bow worked on at bow shop back in the spring and they had moved my rest. I came home and had to re- sight my bow. Being new to archery I didn't put 2 and 2 together. My bow was out of tune. I had to move my rest down 1/16" and 1/16" to the right and broadheads and fieldpoints are now shooting together again then re- sighted and I was back in business. So Slick Tricks don't shoot good out of an out-of-tune bow. Thanks Doc you the the man, your directions with pics were easy to follow and saved the day.:wink: Oh yeah I nailed a doe 3 days later at 10yrds.


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## Don Schultz

*Don't know what to do? Doesn't work for you?*

This is really useful stuff. If you find that your field points and broadheads don't group together and you don't know what to do, 

Re-read Doc's opening posts!!

The info is in here already. If the method doesn't work for you, Your arrows are badly mis-spined (usually to soft) or (even more likely) you have arrow/vane contact with the bow/rest 

The best way I've found to detect vane contact is using some lipstick on the vanes. Even better, I've put masking tape on the bow and rest parts likely to be touched, put the lipstick on the tape, and then looked for "tracks" after shooting an arrow. This is better because speed bows have enuff arrow vibration that the vanes "shake off" the lipstick as they pass by the riser, giving a false positive for contact.

I've not shot a Whisker Bisquit, and don't know any tricks about tuning them. Obviously there is always contact with them.


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## Don Schultz

*Good lesson for all here*



Duck65 said:


> ..........I didn't think I needed to shoot my tricks at target before this season, wrong!!!!............



There is that old joke about what happens when we assume. Glad you didn't wound that buck. Congrats on the doe.


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## WadeB

I have never seen broadhead tuning like this before, it seems right on. I asked my local archery shop about moving my rest as you mention and they told me not to move my rest to the left or right, but instead just sight my bow in using broadheads. It seems to me that the way you describe makes more sense. why would they tell me that?


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## Don Schultz

WadeB said:


> .............It seems to me that the way you describe makes more sense. why would they tell me that?


When I first read about the method, it seemed counter intuitive. IE "I just got this bow shooting well, and now I'm going to move stuff?". But now I'm convinced that with good clearance and decently spined arrows I get a slightly better tune, plus the freedom to fling a couple of fieldtips to be sure I'm still sighted in.

So I think those not familiar with the method would advise against it. Doesn't make 'em bad.


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## fancycat

i went and tuned my broadheads using this method and i can not believe how well it works i have been fighting this exact thing on several bows in the past and this is the first time i have had such good luck and i can not believe my groups at 50 yards it is amazing thank you guys for such a wonderful and informative post:RockOn:


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## Doc

fancycat said:


> i went and tuned my broadheads using this method and i can not believe how well it works i have been fighting this exact thing on several bows in the past and this is the first time i have had such good luck and i can not believe my groups at 50 yards it is amazing thank you guys for such a wonderful and informative post:RockOn:


:thumb: Some think it's voodoo...I beg to differ
I am glad to see so many people making the effort to not only think about this, but to also do it. We need all the advantages we can get and confidence in your rig will certainly help the ever-tough mental game.
Glad to see this thread was time well spent. Also a big thanks to those chiming in with results and information (like *Don Schultz, Todd_ID*, etc) to help others:beer::darkbeer:


----------



## Don Schultz

Todd_ID said:


> Jon,
> If they did the laser tuning setup for you, then you should be pretty darn close...........Good Luck!


I agree it should be fairly close but the laser "tuning" is not tuning but a "setup". By that I mean it is static, and does NOT include the archer. In archery, the archer is an integral part of the shooting machine. A new archer will likely have a variety of form breaks and/or a form that is still evolving toward something that is stable.


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## Michael396

Doc,

Great post! Great information.

Don,

Lighten up dude. Some people don't catch on to things as quick as others. Maybe they read everything, and are just looking for some confirmation. Remember what it was like when you were first starting in archery. Nothing personal, I just think some of your replys were a little harsh.


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## Don Schultz

*New Archer Question*

"I have read the directions for broadhead tuning but I just do not understand this concept." 

And I don't understand people not understanding, but whatever. People are telling me to lighten up. I'll try to address your questions.

Currently my broadheads are shooting about 3" to the right at 20yrds compared to my fieldpoints.

That's not bad at all.

If I move my rest to the left to correct how does this not also move the fieldpoint impact to the right?

First, both the fp and bh arrows will move the same direction you move the rest, NOT THE OPPOSITE, as your question suggests. Second, the bh arrows will move MORE than the fp arrows because of the steering effect of the broadhead, thus bringing the 2 arrow groups closer together. *Groups are everything!! Don't worry about the sight pin till the groups merge, except to stay on the target w' the arrows. *The idea of the method, is to get the groups MERGED. With good arrow spine, and good arrow/vane clearance, this results in a finely tuned bow, PLUS you can fling a couple of field tipped arrows at a bag target, and be confident your BH arrows will fly to the same point. IMO this last is one of the biggest reasons to use this method of fine tuning. 

.......since I just got my bow I really do not want to tinker with it during hunting season.........

I understand, and you are really close, so it may not be a good idea to monkey w' it in the midst of the season. When you have the time to play with the technique, and practice it, THEN you can OWN it and be confident you know what you're doing and why.

Also, will this work with a Wiskerbiscuit?

Yes of course. Rest choice is only a factor in adjustment techniques. IMO a wb should work well with this technique. Go slowly, make small increments of adjustment. Be thorough.


----------



## jdcamo

I need help!!
I am shooting a Bowtech Allegiance at 70 lbs. Carbon Tech whitetail arrows tiped with magnus Snuffer SS in 125 grained. Uses a Limbdriver rest. My broadheads were hitting about 2 inches left of my field tips. SO I moved my rest to the right just a bit and that in turn moved my BH's into the x but fp moved right of that. SO I moved the rest right again and the fp went more right and the BH's are still left about 4 inches. SHould i keep chasing the Fp's or try something else?


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## kzz1king

Could try chasing some more or try a stiffer spine. Could should a 100 grain to change spine or crank it down a little at a time yo see wat happens.Shooting 65# will be like shooting a stiffer arrow. Good luck


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## Don Schultz

*Soft spine*

Yeah, 

For a zero cost quick fix, back off the poundage a bunch and see if that fixes the tuning issues. If it does, you can make a decision to move up to a stiffer arrow shaft, drop broadhead weight, or leave the poundage down.

Don


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## jdcamo

I kept chasing and I think i caught up. My arrows are actually on the stiff side of things so it should not be a weak shaft.


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## Don Schultz

*That's good.*

I'm glad that worked out for you. Today's setups, with releases and nock loops, seem more tolerant of "too stiff" arrow spine than fingers setups.


----------



## jdcamo

Well yesterday I was shooting at 20 yards and I kept moving the rest right (toward the riser). The groups seemed like they merged and i stopped right there. Went out today and shot a few arrows a 30 yrds. Field tips were hitting 3-4 inches right of the Bh's still.
My rest is getting pretty dang close to the riser and almost to the point that it will not move any farther. Any other ideas. I know it is not weak spine. Because i am shooting a 26.5 inch draw length. Use Carbon Tech 65/80's at 28 inch with 125 grain heads. So my arrows are on the stiff side of things?


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## jdcamo

if my BH's are hitting left of the Field tips that means it is a stiff spine reaction, right? SO do you think my arrows are too stiff to tune?


----------



## oktx

My sons bh's are about 3in. high from his fp's. He shoots a WB do I need to move the rest up or down?


----------



## Horrido

I am convinced that the method described in the opening post works! I am, however, facing a challenge right now that I cannot overcome:

Bow: Guardian, 29" draw, 62#, WB rest
Arrows: Eason Axis 400, 100gr point and/or Striker BH

My BH group very consistently but at 20yrds about 2 inches (3 inches at 30 yrds) below my very consistent FP groups .
I tried to adjust the rest up, up to the point where my WB cannot be adjusted any higher. 

???


----------



## Doc

Horrido said:


> I am convinced that the method described in the opening post works! I am, however, facing a challenge right now that I cannot overcome:
> 
> Bow: Guardian, 29" draw, 62#, WB rest
> Arrows: Eason Axis 400, 100gr point and/or Striker BH
> 
> My BH group very consistently but at 20yrds about 2 inches (3 inches at 30 yrds) below my very consistent FP groups .
> I tried to adjust the rest up, up to the point where my WB cannot be adjusted any higher.
> 
> ???


Drop your nocking point...


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## Don Schultz

Horrido said:


> My BH group very consistently but at 20yrds about 2 inches (3 inches at 30 yrds) below my very consistent FP groups .
> I tried to adjust the rest up, up to the point where my WB cannot be adjusted any higher.
> 
> ???


2" is a small divergence. If moving your rest up 1/8" or more had no effect in merging the groups, moving the nock as suggested won't help, so don't screw up your anchor and form doing it. Carefully investigate other issues. First, be sure the basic timing & synchronization of the wheels is correct. This is to sure nock travel is reasonably flat. I don't know how you do this on a Bowtech.

Second, test for "soft" arrow spine by reducing peak draw weight 5-7 lbs. If this makes the groups responsive to rest movements, you need to A. Change to stiffer arrows. or B. Live with the reduced draw weight. C. Live with groups that won't merge. 

I suggest reducing draw weight because I'm sure 400's are not over spined for your set up, but I suspect they could be a bit weak. That Bowtech is a very high performance bow. I can't shoot 400s at that draw weight off my bows even though the performance is generally a bit lower than your Bowtech offers.

Good Hunting.


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## jhart75609

I'm glad to see this post! I've done this for many years, and don't think a bow set-up is complete until it's broadhead tuned.

I would bet that anyone that shoots paper much with thier hunting rigs will see the scores go up after they broadhead tune! 

You try to explain this to a lot of people and they look at you like you have lost your mind.

Thanks Doc


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## rutnstrut

A big thanks to Doc from me also. Before this I was one of the uninformed that always moved my sights if my B.heads did not fly with my fieldtips. I guess thats why I shot Thunderheads for so many years. They worked and almost always flew great with my field tips.


----------



## Don Schultz

jhart75609 said:


> I would bet that anyone that shoots paper much with thier hunting rigs will see the scores go up after they broadhead tune!
> 
> Thanks Doc



So true. Getting the less stable bh arrows and fp arrows that are properly spined flying together means a super tuned bow.


----------



## Don Schultz

jdcamo said:


> if my BH's are hitting left of the Field tips that means it is a stiff spine reaction, right? SO do you think my arrows are too stiff to tune?


JD,

It could mean that IF moving the rest does not move the BH group toward the FP group AND you are dead sure you have no vane contact problems getting the arrow out of the bow.


----------



## Bug eater

So your basically chase your broadhead with your field point using your rest, correct?

sight field points in first?

hypothetically, broadheads hit to the left. -->

Move rest right?

then what?


----------



## Doc

Bug eater said:


> So your basically chase your broadhead with your field point using your rest, correct?
> 
> sight field points in first?
> 
> hypothetically, broadheads hit to the left. -->
> 
> Move rest right?
> 
> then what?


Chase your field point with your broadhead by adjusting the rest.
Then what? Well once they group together, adjust your sight for their POI...all done:beer:


----------



## Bug eater

Doc said:


> Chase your field point with your broadhead by adjusting the rest.
> Then what? Well once they group together, adjust your sight for their POI...all done:beer:


Gotcha! Thanks a lot! :darkbeer:


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## Arrow_slinger43

*Thanks*

Thanks this will help me a ton when i need to tune by Bh's:thumbs_up


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## LowTrunkOzz

Doc rocks! I have the endless Easton tuning paper that I printed off of the internet but it never fails that I cannot find what I'm looking for until I'm not looking for it. This REALLY simplified the process. Thanks again.

nate


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## rutnstrut

I am emberassed to be asking for help on this thread. I have Broadhead tuned my bows with no problems since first reading th thread last year. I even helped friends and relatives b.head tune thier bows last fall. They thought I was doing magic on thier bows till I walked them through it. Any way I have this new set up 2008 Mathews S2,26" D.L. shooting 26.5" GT Pro hunters 5575/100 grain Snuffer SS. Limbdriver Pro rest FOB's for fletching. No matter where I start I end up having to move the rest more and more to the left. If I get mt B.heads dialed in my field tips are still right. I have hoved it so much that I get wierd arrow flight because I am way left of center shot. Is there a chance that the Pro hunters are under spined,I would not think so at the short lenght I have them cut. I love this bow but am going nuts tuning it somebody please help.

Rutnstrut


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## C. Miller

I have been reading up on paper tuning and broadhead tuning and have found what appears to be conflicting information. According to this thread, if your broadheads hit left of field points, you should move the rest right. However, the Lawler Outdoors page( http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Artic... Tuning&Call=Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery ) explains that broadheads hitting left would cause a right tear in paper and that release shooters would move the rest to the left to correct this.

I'm not questioning this thread as it looks like it has worked for many. It just appears as if I have come across conflicting info and I am now a little confused. Any comments or explanations on this matter would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 5MilesBack

C. Miller said:


> I have been reading up on paper tuning and broadhead tuning and have found what appears to be *conflicting information*. According to this thread, if your broadheads hit left of field points, you should move the rest right. However, the Lawler Outdoors page( http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Artic... Tuning&Call=Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery ) explains that broadheads hitting left would cause a right tear in paper and that *release shooters would move the rest to the left to correct this.
> *
> I'm not questioning this thread as it looks like it has worked for many. It just appears as if I have come across conflicting info and I am now a little confused. Any comments or explanations on this matter would be greatly appreciated.





> *Chase your field point with your broadhead by adjusting the rest.*


Yep, I experienced the opposite as well. To get mine to hit together, I have to chase my BH's with the FP's. This applies to vertical as well as horizontal adjustments for me. Makes tuning quite difficult when you're trying to follow the tuning guides.


----------



## EZ4U

Try this, I did. It will cost you a little money, but hey, College is not cheap.

Cut five (5) arrows in one half inch increments. Cut the fletching down to the quill for a bare shaft on all five shafts. Shoot those arrows and see the difference.

I think everyone will agree that the shortest arrow is the stiffest. The longest arrow is the weakest. Assuming you have the same weight tip on all arrows. My experience shooting these arrows with a release and a drop away rest is that the stiffest arrow gives you tail left the most, and the weakest arrow gives the most tail right.

My experiments also showed me to move the rest to the left to correct for tail right, and to move the rest right to correct for tail left. 

Any weight added to the front of an arrow makes it shoot weaker, Any weight added to the back of the arrow makes it shoot stiffer. Adding a broadhead to an arrow increases that arrow's effective length, and affects tuning the same as having a longer shaft.


----------



## rutnstrut

This may be a dumb question,but here she goes. Can having a high FOC be making it harder for me to B.head tune,or is 14% not high.


----------



## rutnstrut

I know there are some tuning gurus on here,come on guys I need a little help.


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## EZ4U

Rutnstrut,
I have had much the same problem as you with one of my bows. The other bow tuned fast. 
A couple of things I have found is that moving the rest up and down affects your right and left some also. It can be a tricky combonation. Another thing you might try is; if you are using one broadhead arrow, set up another one and shoot it too. I have found that I need to use multiple tuning arrows because some just don't fly true, and usually it is the nock that is to blame. 
I am not a tuning Guru, I strugle with it some times just like you. Only trying to help.

Good luck.


----------



## 5MilesBack

rutnstrut said:


> This may be a dumb question,but here she goes. Can having a high FOC be making it harder for me to B.head tune,or is 14% not high.


14% is on the higher end of what is considered best for a hunting arrow, I believe they say something like 10-15% FOC is preferred. However, at shorter distances I don't think it would matter that much. Mine are 12.7%.


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## a3dhunter

rutnstrut said:


> This may be a dumb question,but here she goes. Can having a high FOC be making it harder for me to B.head tune,or is 14% not high.


It is a little high, currently that is the problem with my wife's new arrows. She gets more drop in flight than previously, even though her old arrows were heavier they had less FOC so they didn't nose dive as quickly. If you switch to a lighter head it would help, or get heavier fletching or add wraps. You could be getting a weak spine reaction if you have a heavy point weight with that much FOC, but if you know you have the right spine then just shoot it.:wink:


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## ScottO

I've been lurking on this site for about 6 months. I've been a bowhunter for 25 years, but never really got into archery until I bought a new Drenalin last year. I became obsessed with getting maximum tuning and performance out of that bow, partially because I intend to hunt turkeys with it this year. This site also contributed to my desire to improve my archery skills and equipment. I had done paper tuning and modified French tuning and thought my bow was dialed in pretty well. Shooting nice groups out to 30 yds, the farthest I can shoot in my yard. I saw this thread and decided to screw on my fixed blade thunderheads and see what happened. I figured I should be pretty close.

I asked my wife for lipstick and checked vane clearance before starting. Priceless look from her when I asked for lipstick! :embara: My broadheads were hitting 3-4 inches to the right of my field points. I adjust my rest slightly and my broadheads hit in the X. I shot a field point and it hit 6 inches left?!? What the heck? This should be easy. Tried going the other direction - everything then hit right. Starting to get frustrated. 

Put the rest back, modified French tune back to field points hitting the X. Thinking I might have a spine issue, I back out my limb bolts two turns. No change on fieldpoints, broadheads still hit to the right. Getting dark now, give up and go inside. Read all 7 pages of this post again. Somewhere (probably on page 1) I read to try adjusting your nocks to eliminate fletching contact. But I already did the lipstick trick, so that can't be the problem, right? 

Get up early to shoot before work because this is bugging me. Move from cock feather up to cock feather out configuration on my arrow. Shoot broadhead - X. Repeat - another x!!:darkbeer: I guess I must have been getting very slight contact with the riser or cable.

Now I didn't have a lot of time to shoot this morning, but based on what I saw, I think I'm really dialed in.

Thanks to everyone here for being such a great resource.

ScottO


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## 5MilesBack

ScottO said:


> Get up early to shoot before work because this is bugging me. Move from cock feather up to cock feather out configuration on my arrow. Shoot broadhead - X. Repeat - another x!!:darkbeer: I guess I must have been getting very slight contact with the riser or cable.


Now the real question is....where are your fieldpoints hitting in relation to your BH's? Last year I couldn't get my BH's to group any closer than 4" right of FP's. However, out to 60 yards I could get 3" groups with BH's....just not with my FP's. This is where my frustrations began trying to tune to both this past week.


----------



## ScottO

5MilesBack said:


> Now the real question is....where are your fieldpoints hitting in relation to your BH's? Last year I couldn't get my BH's to group any closer than 4" right of FP's. However, out to 60 yards I could get 3" groups with BH's....just not with my FP's. This is where my frustrations began trying to tune to both this past week.


Since I didn't move my rest or sight, I assumed my FPs wouldn't move with a simple move of fletching. Now that you brought it up, I need to get out and shoot some more FP. I'm at work, so that will need to wait for a couple of hours. Thanks -one more thing to obsess about...  :wink:


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## jdcamo

Got some questions and need some help. I just got a 82nd and need to find its centershot. The 82 nd is set at 72 lbs. 26.5 inch draw. I am shooting 28 inch Carbon Tech arrows (9.5 gpi, 300 inch spine). Using a 125 grained tip. I used to use an Allegiance and these arrows worked great even thou they were considered really stiff. Now I have the 82 nd Airborn and it is shooting 280 fps with this set up. Broadheads are hitting right of the field tips. Indicating a weak spine. I would think the spine should be perfect for this setup. I finally got them hitting fairly close but the BH's still seemed to be slightly left of the field tips. 

My question is, I have not walk backed tuned yet, but I am going to do it pretty soon. I plan on doing walk back tune at an archery range using field points (tall targets). But the targets are not broadhead targets so I dont think I can do a walk back tune using the broadheads. My question is, if I do a walk back tune using the field points, will I be good to go for shooting BH's. Or is it essential to do the walk back tune method using BH'S too?


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## 5MilesBack

jdcamo said:


> My question is, if I do a walk back tune using the field points, will I be good to go for shooting BH's. Or is it essential to do the walk back tune method using BH'S too?


Last year I did walk-back tuning out to 60 yards with FP's. Got everything hitting perfectly, but my BH's were still 4" right of FP's. My BH's would group really well, just 4" right of target. I tried fine tuning and couldn't get anything closer than that so moved the sight for hunting last year.

Fast forward to this year......I completely started over, and did paper-tuning at 3, 6, and 20 feet with BH's. Got everything set and now BH's are hitting with FP's out to 60.


----------



## jcsanders79-xt

*ttt for a good thread.*

Did some bh tunning yesterday. Got new strings and needed to retune. BH and FP were close from the get go even though I never paper tuned or walkback tuned. I feel like I should do one or the other even though the bow is BH tuned. Does that make sense or should I just be happy that the bow was shooting that well and not worry about paper or walk back?


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## Doc

jcsanders79-xt said:


> Did some bh tunning yesterday. Got new strings and needed to retune. BH and FP were close from the get go even though I never paper tuned or walkback tuned. I feel like I should do one or the other even though the bow is BH tuned. Does that make sense or should I just be happy that the bow was shooting that well and not worry about paper or walk back?


If your fp's and bh's are grouping together...you're good to go:thumb: Don't de-tune with paper:wink:
What you described is what I did here. I put on a new rest and just eyeballed things and then went right for the BH tuning:archer:
Congrats you're good to go.


----------



## Don Schultz

jcsanders79-xt said:


> ......I feel like I should do one or the other even though the bow is BH tuned. Does that make sense or should I just be happy....



I would definitely NOT do paper. As Doc suggested, that will detune the bow. If you want to do walk back just to confirm the BH/FP group tune that might be fun.


----------



## jcsanders79-xt

Doc said:


> If your fp's and bh's are grouping together...you're good to go:thumb: Don't de-tune with paper:wink:
> What you described is what I did here. I put on a new rest and just eyeballed things and then went right for the BH tuning:archer:
> Congrats you're good to go.


Thats good news!


----------



## IL 88

Glad to see this one got the stick again

It's about that time of year again and man did this thread help me out


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## bigracklover

Excellent information for sure. Thanks, Doc


----------



## Duck65

Best sticky on this board. Saved a hunt for me last year.


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## longarmoflaw

I don't want to sound ingnorant but I have always wanted to know if I tune my BH and then change the blades do I need to retune or would simply spin testing them be enough.


----------



## Doc

longarmoflaw said:


> I don't want to sound ingnorant but I have always wanted to know if I tune my BH and then change the blades do I need to retune or would simply spin testing them be enough.


As long as you use the same size/weight blades (some head companies have various size blades) and they spin true--->you're good to go:nod:


----------



## First Lite

thanks Doc,used your method last week got my broad heads to fly exactly where my fieldpoints hit first time ever.Went on a trip out to california 4 days later and brought this home.


----------



## Doc

wump said:


> thanks Doc,used your method last week got my broad heads to fly exactly where my fieldpoints hit first time ever.Went on a trip out to california 4 days later and brought this home.


Excellent...great job:banana:
Love the success stories:thumb:
Congrats on a great trophy:archer:


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## crawdad

Doc,

I am learning, and find this stuff very interesting. One thing I am not sure I understand is this: If you are paper tuned, then do the BH tuning described, won't moving your rest "untune" your bow with respect to paper tuning? I realize it is important to have the same POI with FP and BH, but do you lose some of the straight arrow flight perfected with the paper tuning?

Thank you,

crawdad


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## bigracklover

crawdad said:


> Doc,
> 
> I am learning, and find this stuff very interesting. One thing I am not sure I understand is this: If you are paper tuned, then do the BH tuning described, won't moving your rest "untune" your bow with respect to paper tuning? I realize it is important to have the same POI with FP and BH, but do you lose some of the straight arrow flight perfected with the paper tuning?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> crawdad


If I may interject, I believe the premise is that if you begin with paper tuning and tune the bow to shoot bullet holes, then you won't have to move you're rest much at all to achieve the same POI of the broadheads and fieldpoints. Conversely, if you begin with broadhead tuning then go to paper, you should get good tears. Look at it as a system of checks and balances.


----------



## IGluIt4U

crawdad said:


> Doc,
> 
> I am learning, and find this stuff very interesting. One thing I am not sure I understand is this: If you are paper tuned, then do the BH tuning described, won't moving your rest "untune" your bow with respect to paper tuning? I realize it is important to have the same POI with FP and BH, but do you lose some of the straight arrow flight perfected with the paper tuning?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> crawdad


No... paper tuning is merely a beginning point. A properly tuned bow will put field points and broadheads in the same spot. If you can do that, throw away your paper tuner and don't even thing twice about it. A field tipped arrow is easy to get good flight out of. A broadheaded arrow that hits the same POI, is being launched from a well-tuned bow. 

I use walkback or French tuning to begin with, don't even bother with paper. Then tune the broadhead shafts til they hit the same, and your are good to go. :wink:


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## crawdad

Oops,

Sorry guys, new reader here did not realize there were 7 pages to read before I posted. I only read the first page and now realize my question has been answered more than once.

By the way, I have been real lucky with my Mathews Legacy, TT shaky hunter, ICS hunter 400 arrows and Muzzy 100gr. 3-blades. I never had to tune any further to get my FP and BH to group together, although I haven't practiced beyond 25 yards much. Plus, my groups are more like a coffee cup than a quarter, anyway.

I may have to BH tune now with a new string and cable, though. Plus my 2 boys are learning to shoot their Browning Micros and soon I will have to see where they shoot a BH.

Thanks for all the info.


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## RxBowhunter

*I've been waiting for this...........*

............to get another sticky for this Fall! :thumb:


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## racknspur

I'm a little. It seems by the time U were finished, there was a lot of rest moving unless Im reading it wrong but I picture the rest way far to the right and the arrow pointing upward.


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## Arrow_slinger43

ok i can tune so my broadheads hit the same place as my feild points but then i do not have enough room for adjustments to my sight to sight in to where they are hitting, what now?


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## jersey bob

excellent thread. I hope you don't mind, but I just cross-posted to another site. Thankis for the advice!


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## tman704

Doc said:


> This is a common misconception and area of frustration for many. This is why I posted a step-by-step instruction of what I moved when. The whole goal to BH tuning is to get the same point of impact (POI) for your BH and FP's. Therefore moving your sight is not going to tune anything. You adjust your rest until your BH and FP's are grouping together. It doesn't matter if they are hitting where you are aiming (aiming at center X the whole time), only if they are hitting together. Once you get them to hit together, you are BH tuned and now it's time to set your sight for their POI. After you get them to group together and adjust your sight to the proper POI...you are done...good-to-go. Forget paper. If you go back to paper, you are just going to have to BH tune again. If you are going to paper tune, do this to get things close before BH tuning.
> Make sense?


I had the same question while reading through the thread. That makes all the sense in the world. 

Thanks Doc.


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## drummeister

thanks Doc.i went out to the range yesterday and got my bh,s (slick trick 100 standards) hitting with my fp,s out to 50 yards.i would have gone farther but i ran out of room.all in all pretty painless and simple.cant wait till deer season.


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## KCHuntPunk

*Information Overload!!! Squaring Question...*

I have read almost all seven pages of this thread and have gotten more confused as I go on.  I understand the BH tuning process though and look forward to trying it after work! I do have some questions though...What is the importance of squaring the shafts and inserts? What are the chances that they are already squared from the manufacturer? Also, I don't have an arrow squaring device; if it is a vital part of tuning is it something my local bow hut can take care of, or should I look into purchasing an arrow squaring device? If so, what kind, where, and how much? Amazing thread, amazing site, amazing people. Thanks in advance.


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## Doc

*What is the importance of squaring the shafts and inserts? 
*You want the broadhead to spin true in flight and you want the energy to be transferred down the entire spine of the arrow shaft and not to the side, which leads to increased penetration and efficiency.
*What are the chances that they are already squared from the manufacturer?
*Most likely the manuf. cut them on a saw and just installed the inserts without taking the time to square the shaft or inserts. This is not customary for a manuf to do this.
*Also, I don't have an arrow squaring device; if it is a vital part of tuning is it something my local bow hut can take care of, or should I look into purchasing an arrow squaring device? If so, what kind, where, and how much? *
G5 ASD (Arrow squaring device) for around $35-40 and they are available at your nearest dealer or many, many stores online...this little device IMO is worth every penny.
If your inserts are already installed, then you can use the aluminum side of the cutter to square the inserts prior to BH installation.


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## KCHuntPunk

Doc said:


> *What is the importance of squaring the shafts and inserts?
> *You want the broadhead to spin true in flight and you want the energy to be transferred down the entire spine of the arrow shaft and not to the side, which leads to increased penetration and efficiency.
> *What are the chances that they are already squared from the manufacturer?
> *Most likely the manuf. cut them on a saw and just installed the inserts without taking the time to square the shaft or inserts. This is not customary for a manuf to do this.
> *Also, I don't have an arrow squaring device; if it is a vital part of tuning is it something my local bow hut can take care of, or should I look into purchasing an arrow squaring device? If so, what kind, where, and how much? *
> G5 ASD (Arrow squaring device) for around $35-40 and they are available at your nearest dealer or many, many stores online...this little device IMO is worth every penny.
> If your inserts are already installed, then you can use the aluminum side of the cutter to square the inserts prior to BH installation.




Thanks Doc! I started tuning yesterday, getting close and then the rain hit, will continue Friday, b/c after work today, I'm scouting!!! Truly, a resource, I might have some other questions; I'll keep you posted.


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## chevman

*bh tuning*

Well Doc...i bh tuned this evening using your way. Now do i send you the bill for the sliced up blazers (black and orange tigers) and scared up shafts, or who actually gets that. Thank you for taking the time to illustrate it for us. You made a lot of comfident bow hunters with this.


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## robertb

*youtube video explaining broadhead tuning*

Here's a video on youtube explaining how to broadhead tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24a-SxaUj4


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## messickzr

So i have my bow broadhead tuned and have a slight issue that I noticed. My broadheads (Muzzy's) hit exactly where field points do. I can see that they are making contact with my QAD dropaway rest. Should I adjust the rest? How do you tell if the drop away is getting out of the way fast enough? Or do I need to move the rest? Thanks!


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## Don Schultz

I like to put lipstick on the rest and look for arrow scrapes. I prefer this to putting lipstick on the vanes because arrow vibration shakes it off creating a false positive for contact.


----------



## DaleE

*Foc*

Doc-

Excellent Work! Thank you for it.

How important is FOC to you regarding this process? What is the FOC %range you shoot for?

Thanks!

DaleE


----------



## Don Schultz

*Foc*

This may be a topic that needs its own thread.

FOC is another factor in arrow flight stability. It is not factor peculiar to this tuning process. Like vane contact, or incorrect shaft spine, (especially weak spine) extremely low FOC may make it impossible to get the aerodynamically less stable broadhead tipped arrows to group with themselves or the fieldtipped arrows, that seem to fly OK.

I personally have been pretty lazy about FOC as a factor in arrow flight. I've recently concluded I need to pay more attention. :embara: Because of a long draw length, I was always struggling to get sufficent spine and keep arrow weight low for speed. This caused me to constantly use low tip weights. Carbon arrow technology has made life much better. I no longer shoot an overdraw, yet my speed bow shoots lighter arrows than ever.

Recently, I started using the SpeedPro 6.2 grain/inch arrow shafts. I had to go to heavier tips to get them up to 5grains/LB. They flew extremely well. I realized they had the highest FOC value, ~15%, I'd shot in many years. So now I am seeking to get my hunting arrows up over 12%. I am going to compare long range groups with 85grain (9% foc), 100 grain, and 125 grain tips. The hunting shafts are Beman Hawk 340s at about 8.5 grains/inch. 

So, IMO, you should experiment with FOC. Expect less stability with single digit %'s and see if you like the results with values over 12%.




DaleE said:


> How important is FOC to you regarding this process? What is the FOC %range you shoot for?
> DaleE


----------



## butter21

ok so im trying to tune my bh's and ill get it good at 15 yards then ill move back to 20 but then its all off. So ill tune it for 20 it will be good then ill move back up and its all bad again. Anyone know what the problem is?


----------



## Doc

butter21 said:


> ok so im trying to tune my bh's and ill get it good at 15 yards then ill move back to 20 but then its all off. So ill tune it for 20 it will be good then ill move back up and its all bad again. Anyone know what the problem is?


We're going to need a bit more information and some definitions here:
Define bad--->inconsistent groups? groups shift low, high, left/right of field points? No groups at all (shotgun spray of impacts?).

Did you check for clearance issues?
What is your set-up? (Spine ok?)


----------



## butter21

Doc said:


> We're going to need a bit more information and some definitions here:
> Define bad--->inconsistent groups? groups shift low, high, left/right of field points? No groups at all (shotgun spray of impacts?).
> 
> Did you check for clearance issues?
> What is your set-up? (Spine ok?)


If i get both the bh's and fp's good at 10 yards. Then I move back to 20 the bh's hit 4 inches low and a little right of the fp's, but the problem is the group is like a good 6 inches to the left and a little lower. I have a whisker biscuit rest, and my spine should be good.


----------



## Doc

butter21 said:


> If i get both the bh's and fp's good at 10 yards. Then I move back to 20 the bh's hit 4 inches low and a little right of the fp's, but the problem is the group is like a good 6 inches to the left and a little lower. I have a whisker biscuit rest, and my spine should be good.


10 yards won't tell you too much with respect to flaws in this type of tuning. At 20 your BH are low and right I understand, what I don't understand is "the group is like a good 6 inches to the left and a little lower." Are you talking about your field points? If you are then you're center shot is off. Get your field points slamming the X at 20 yards and once this is accomplished...bring in the broadheads. If your FP groups are that different between 10 and 20, then you have to make some rest adjustments first.


----------



## Jerry/NJ

Fix em up there doctor .......:wink: You know your stuff!! 

As you know me, I 've been shootin various arrow combos and all flying great and impacting better than I can shoot (dam back:embara ...now what do I use for my elk hunt??? :wink:


----------



## Doc

Jerry/NJ said:


> Fix em up there doctor .......:wink: You know your stuff!!
> 
> As you know me, I 've been shootin various arrow combos and all flying great and impacting better than I can shoot (dam back:embara ...*now what do I use for my elk hunt*??? :wink:


S T R _ K _ R

Wanna buy a vowel?


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## Jerry/NJ

Doc said:


> S T R _ K _ R
> 
> Wanna buy a vowel?


:icon_1_lol: that dam Striker Magnum is killin my targets! Huge holes!! :tongue:


----------



## butter21

Doc said:


> 10 yards won't tell you too much with respect to flaws in this type of tuning. At 20 your BH are low and right I understand, what I don't understand is "the group is like a good 6 inches to the left and a little lower." Are you talking about your field points? If you are then you're center shot is off. Get your field points slamming the X at 20 yards and once this is accomplished...bring in the broadheads. If your FP groups are that different between 10 and 20, then you have to make some rest adjustments first.


sorry my group is moves 6 inches to the left and a little lower at 20 yards. 

I started yesterday hitting x's at 20 with fp, before i started making adjustments to bring in my broadheads. I i got my bh hitting together yesterday, then today when i moved up to 10 yards that were 6 inches right of my 20 yard group.


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## finchaser4ever

butter21 are you using a peep sight? release? Fingers? somthings not right. What kind of bow. measure from inside if riser to center of shaft. sounds like to me you have a serious center shot problem.


----------



## Ode1891

*new tool for the tool box*

I'll still get my bow close on paper tune before I shoot a BH, only because on my Bowtech, I have to set the rest way to the left. That said, I will never again drive myself crazy to attain a bullet hole paper test. 

I had a good tear, and went outside and experimented with BH's. I moved the rest until I hit the center at 25 yards with Thunderheads and Stinger 4 Blades. Target tips were then hitting a little right. So between tweaking the rest a little and the sight, I now have a pretty consistent impact point for everything. For kicks, I went to 40 yards and the Stingers shoot the best.

It's easy to get screwed up if you don't remember what you did last, good idea to write it down. Good post! Thanks for the graphic explanation.


----------



## Ode1891

Doc said:


> Fourth


question on step 4. why did you move the rest up when your BH was in the X and your FP hit high? The outcome shows it was a correct move for sure.


----------



## Doc

Ode1891 said:


> question on step 4. why did you move the rest up when your BH was in the X and your FP hit high? The outcome shows it was a correct move for sure.


The goal is not to hit the X UNTIL your FP and BH hit the same spot...once they do then move your sight so they hit the X. 
So in the referenced step, the BH was still low of the FP...the X is irrelevant until it's time to move the sight.


----------



## Acts 10:13

*First things first...*

The first thing I would do before I ever started to broadhead tune is evaluate which brand of BHs I'm shooting. I don't want to brand bash by any means or even come accross as a pro. It's obvious from all the previous posts that Doc has multiple lifetimes of knowledge and experience that I can only hope to acheive one day. 

But my experience has been that certain fixed blade broadheads do fly closer to your field tips than others. I'm sure that this effect may be different depending upon your bow and setup and how well it is tuned (paper, step back, etc.). Last season, I was shooting 3 inch groups at 30+. I put on a pack of fixed blade BHs (Muzzy's) and they were flying 6 inches left and 8 inches low. I didn't want to mess with my setup because I had it paper tuned like a dream. So, I switched to mechanicals (Rocky Mountian Ironheads) because I don't hunt anything bigger than Whitetail and felt that I wouldn't have any Kenetic Energy problems. They of course flew dead on with my FPs. I took a deer last season with the mechanicals and the broadhead passed through both lungs, one rib and then in turn buried 6 to 8 inches in the dirt. So, the mechanicals worked for me. 

So, I would ask around to guys that shoot a similar brand, bow and/or setup as you and see what broadheads they shoot and why. You may save yourself a ton of pain and headache...


----------



## Ode1891

Doc said:


> The goal is not to hit the X UNTIL your FP and BH hit the same spot...once they do then move your sight so they hit the X.
> So in the referenced step, the BH was still low of the FP...the X is irrelevant until it's time to move the sight.


Yep makes tons of sense to me. But what I was asking is when both tips were hitting high, differently, why did you move the rest 1/16" up? I think I figured it out. Moving the rest changes the impact point of a BH much more than a FP. In your example, it moved the BH about twice as far, so that last move of your rest put'm both together. In my case, at my 3rd or fourth step, I had both points elevation good, but BHs were hitting left. I had the same result (I guess) in that the BH moved further than the FP with the same rest movement. You really need to keep track of what you do each step or a person can get all messed up.
Thanks


----------



## Don Schultz

*You got it!!!!!!*

Exactly right. 

I believe the rules are:

1. Bow cam/cams must be synched/timed per mfg specs. (I shoot Darton so it is clear when things are right.)
2. Arrow spine must be "in the range", especially not soft.
3. Arrows must be getting out of the bow cleanly (no contact)
4. Paper tuning to get the bow basically tuned is good.
5. *Chase the FP group with the BH group. Always adjust to move the BHs toward the FPs.
*6. When the groups merge, you are done.



Ode1891 said:


> Yep makes tons of sense to me. But what I was asking is when both tips were hitting high, differently, why did you move the rest 1/16" up? I think I figured it out. Moving the rest changes the impact point of a BH much more than a FP. In your example, it moved the BH about twice as far, so that last move of your rest put'm both together. In my case, at my 3rd or fourth step, I had both points elevation good, but BHs were hitting left. I had the same result (I guess) in that the BH moved further than the FP with the same rest movement. You really need to keep track of what you do each step or a person can get all messed up.
> Thanks


----------



## Zona

Ok, I have read through this whole thread and I decided to try and get my muzzy's to hit with my field tips. My setup is a Diamond Bow, 63#, 27.5" Gold Tip 5575 with a WB rest. At 20 yards my three blade Muzzy 125 hit 3" right of my field tips. So I moved my rest to the left 1/16" chasing my field tips. They still hit 3" right of my field tips, everything just moved further left. I went through this procedure two more times and no change. They still hit 3" right of my field tips, now everything is just further left. Spin test the broadhead and it spins straight. I moved everything back to original settings. Now I thought my arrows were spined a little weak so I turned my bow down 1 turn and tried the process again. No change still muzzy's hit 3" right of field tips. I have now returned everything to original settings. Any suggestions? Am I doing anything wrong? Went through this same process with my dads bow and it worked like a charm. 

Brian


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## IGluIt4U

Ok Doc.. I gotta bone to pick with you... 

Figured it was about time to get the camo bow out of mothballs and git r tuned for my upcoming venture to the Bitterroots... and deer season, of course. So, I have been shooting her with field points to get it dialed back in and trying to remember how to shoot it. 

Tonight after the field cleared I took out an old Block target, pasted a spot on it and set out at 20yds to see what she'd do with some sharpies... my first go at 20 the bh's hit about 4" low and centered, so.. I did me some tweakin and let go another round at 20... still a bit low, about an inch and a half... ok, tweak a bit more, and shoot one more round.. one field tip, two broadheads, a four fletch and a three fletch with three blade fixed heads.... let go the first one, hits a bit high of my spot, which I expected, since I haven't yet moved my sight at all. Let go the second one and it hits the same spot.. pretty much. Let go the third one and it cuts the vanes off the field tipped shaft... :frusty: :frusty:

Now most would say... "that's good enough"... but in my quest for perfection, and it light of the fact that I'm gonna be hunting elk in da hills, I figure I better step back a bit further and give her another go.. so, I walk back to 50yds.. shoot a couple of rounds to get my sight back in the groove, and then shoot another group of three.. a field point, a 3 fletch 3 blade, and a 4 fletch 3 blade.... field point hits an inch high of the spot.. second arrow downrange sends pieces flyin all about the target.. final arrow is nestled in right there with the other two. :becky:

Here is the aftermath.. one can be repaired, the 20yd shaft with a couple of vanes cut.. .but the one on the lower left is kinda history (the 50 ydr that sent pieces flyin)... you got any spare 7595 camo shafts layin around???


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## Jerry/NJ

LMAO.....you had to follow directions didnt ya Sticky  

I was shootin my McKenzie target at 70 yards yesterday and thought, ok I can shoot 3 arrows (all bh's) as I will never hit that close to worry....yep, shaved the dam fletch and hit the bh on the other arrow! Dam them elk cost us money!


----------



## IGluIt4U

Jerry/NJ said:


> LMAO.....you had to follow directions didnt ya Sticky
> 
> I was shootin my McKenzie target at 70 yards yesterday and thought, ok I can shoot 3 arrows (all bh's) as I will never hit that close to worry....yep, shaved the dam fletch and hit the bh on the other arrow! Dam them elk cost us money!


Yea, but.. I think I misread the part about using more than one spot.. :lol: Just seemed right to really see what they'd do when I flung em at the same spot. I was honestly pretty amazed.. them babies fly good!

I'm thinkin I'm gonna rig up some broadheads for my field bow setup and bh tune it.. I can't get my arrow flight quite right off of it, this may be just the ticket.. :tongue: :chortle: :wink:


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## rick crowe

thanks doc now my muzzy 125 grain hit with field points
thank you very much


----------



## Doc

Zona said:


> Ok, I have read through this whole thread and I decided to try and get my muzzy's to hit with my field tips. My setup is a Diamond Bow, 63#, 27.5" Gold Tip 5575 with a WB rest. At 20 yards my three blade Muzzy 125 hit 3" right of my field tips. So I moved my rest to the left 1/16" chasing my field tips. They still hit 3" right of my field tips, everything just moved further left. I went through this procedure two more times and no change. They still hit 3" right of my field tips, now everything is just further left. Spin test the broadhead and it spins straight. I moved everything back to original settings. Now I thought my arrows were spined a little weak so I turned my bow down 1 turn and tried the process again. No change still muzzy's hit 3" right of field tips. I have now returned everything to original settings. Any suggestions? Am I doing anything wrong? Went through this same process with my dads bow and it worked like a charm.
> 
> Brian


Brian, have you tried to rotate your nocks 1/4 to 1/2 turn?
Also you need to make sure your idler lean is properly set on that Diamond. Check the string feed into the idler at full draw...it should feed straight within...if not twist the appropriate side of the yoke cable accordingly.


----------



## Doc

rick crowe said:


> thanks doc now my muzzy 125 grain hit with field points
> thank you very much


Glad to hear it...You're very welcome:cheers:
You can now practice and have more confidence in your shot:thumb:


----------



## Doc

IGluIt4U said:


> Ok Doc.. I gotta bone to pick with you...


Take a number:tongue:
Glad to see you're splitting fibers with those heads:dancing:
Now you don't have any excuses in Texas:archer:


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## 5MilesBack

Don Schultz said:


> 5. *Chase the FP group with the BH group. Always adjust to move the BHs toward the FPs.*


Maybe. When I tried chasing my FP group, the gap got wider. When I started chasing my BH's with my FP's.....the gap closed until finally hitting together.


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## dt5150

what do you do when you run out of rest adjustment?

my bh are still hitting about 6" higher than my fp and i can't move my rest down any further.

pse firestorm x @ 53lbs, gt 5575, 100gr. stinger buzzcuts, wb rest, hha slider.


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## IGluIt4U

dt5150 said:


> what do you do when you run out of rest adjustment?
> 
> my bh are still hitting about 6" higher than my fp and i can't move my rest down any further.
> 
> pse firestorm x @ 53lbs, gt 5575, 100gr. stinger buzzcuts, wb rest, hha slider.


Lowering your nocking point is the same as raising your rest. :wink:


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## dt5150

i tried that, but looking at the arrow, you could clearly see it was way off level. it caused them to fly pretty erratic too. i'm guessing that is caused some contact.

and this is only at 20 yards. i haven't even tried a longer distance yet. so even if i get it dialed in at 20, i'll still be unable to adjust at 30 or 40.


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## dt5150

bump...


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## racknspur

*Having a hard time understanding??*

Why on earth if you are moving your rest up and over does the field tips point of impact remain the same but the broadheads continually change?????


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## racknspur

My bad. I read again more closely!


----------



## Don Schultz

racknspur said:


> My bad. I read again more closely!


:wink:

Good for you racknspur! I am continually disappointed by the same questions over and over in this thread. They are caused by people not reading, with care, the first several posts by Doc. I don't know what could have been done to make things clearer.

Doc has much more patience than I. I merged up my FPs and BHs just last week w' my primary hunting bow. Back up bow this week.


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## stalley

*Please Help Me Broadhead Tune!!!!*

Doc,

I really hope you or one of the other guru’s on here can help me figure this thing out! I’ve read this entire thread multiple times. I believe I completely understand the overall concept and the method getting your broadheads to group with you field points. Basically just chasing your FP’s with your BH’s until they converge… Seems so simple right?

To start here is my setup:

2007 Bowtech Guardian RH (65 lbs. draw weight, 28” draw length)
QAD Ultra Rest Pro LD Drop Away Rest
Saunders Archery Hyper-Glide, Fast Bearing Cable Slide
Easton Axis ST (Obsession Camo) Arrows (400’s, 9.8 GPI, 26” long) Fletched with 2” Blazer Vanes.
100 grain Saunders Field Points
100 grain NAP Thunderhead Broadheads
Rear Mount STS
TRU-Fire Judge Release

So, feeling confident (after reading this thread) about it, I set out the other day to get my BH’s hitting in the same location as my FP’s. I was hoping for the first time, I would not be just moving my sights to match the BH impact location! Whoo-Hoo!

First, I went out to Cabela’s and purchased a Pine Ridge Archery Products Arrow Inspector (Arrow Spin tester). I also purchased a G5 ASD (as per advice on this thread). I went home, squared up all of my arrows on the G5 ASD. After that, I did a spin test on each arrow. I did the spin test without any tip installed, then with a FP, and finally with a BH installed. This turns out to be a good thing because I did find 2 of my arrows which would just not spin true, so I’ve marked them, and devoted those to FP use only.

Next, I assembled all of my Broadhead’s to arrows, and rechecked each one on the Pine Ridge Arrow Inspector Spin Tester just to make sure there was no evidence of wobble. All of them checked out okay, with no visible wobble. Finally time to fling some arrows!

I began my tuning at 20 yards by shooting a group of 3 field tipped arrows. They all hit in my “normal” group of about 1.5” diameter, at the center X of the target. Next, I shot a Broadhead tipped arrow 3 separate times (marking the impact location in between each shot) to establish a Broadhead grouping. The Broadhead tipped arrows grouped a bit larger (approx 2.5” diameter group), but the group was centered approximately 6” to the right, and 3” down from the center X of the target.

Following Doc’s instructions, I then started by moving my rest location up by 1/16”, and also to the left by 1/16”. I then shot 3 more Field tipped arrows. This time the Field tipped group moved approximately 1.25” to the left, and about 1/2” high of center X on the target. After marking the location of my FP group, I then shot my Broadhead tipped arrow 3 more times to establish another group. This time, the BH group was virtually aligned horizontally with the FP group, but still about 4 to 5 inches right of my FP’s.

Therefore, I moved my rest to the left again by 1/16”, and shot another FP group. This time my FP’s moved to the left about 1.25” again. I again marked my FP group location, and began shooting a 3 arrow BH group again. This new BH group was still around 4” to the right of my FP’s. Getting frustrated now…. 

Just to let you know this entire time, I’ve always been “aiming” at the center X location of the target. At this time, I again moved my rest to the left another 1/16”. I began to shoot another 3 arrow FP group, and they ended up even further to the left, almost going off the target completely! Feeling a little worried, I went ahead and shot another 3 arrow group of BH’s. Again, the BH group was still approx 4” to the right of my FP grouping.

I am now out of adjustment in my rest.  It is moved all the way over to the left as far as it can go. Before I began moving my rest around, I marked my original windage and elevation locations just in case I messed something up. I then moved my rest back to its original location, just so I could check to make sure I had no fletching contact or interference. I did not think I was getting interference anywhere, but I thought I’d better check for it anyhow, just to make sure.

To check for interference, I used Doc’s and Don Schultz’s method of putting some bright red lipstick on the vanes of the arrows. I then shot both Field tipped arrows, and Broadhead tipped arrows. After inspecting my bow riser, shelf, rest, strings, and cables, I could not see or detect anywhere where there was fletching contact. Additionally, my arrows didn’t seem to have any obvious bad flight characteristics. I also checked the arrows and fletching themselves for signs of interference, and could not see any there either. 

Next, I tried what Doc suggested, and turned my nocks both 1/4 turn, and 1/2 turn. Turning the nock by 1/4 turn didn’t seem to do anything, but turning it 1/2 turn, produced an obvious interference with the QAD arrow rest. I reset my nock locations back to where they originally were, and reshot. Again, I could not see any fletching contact anywhere…

So, after all of that long-windedness, this is my problem. What do I do next? Do I try it all again the same way or do I try the opposite by chasing my BH’s with my FP’s, as has been mentioned once or twice in this thread? Do I try a different model of BH? I’ve been told my arrows are of the correct spine for my draw weight, tip weight, and arrow length… Easton’s arrow charts seem to show this is true as well (my local Pro Shop also agreed it was good to be using 400’s). 

I can’t see anything obviously wrong with my bow or setup to change at this point. Can anyone help to point me in the right direction??? Sorry for such a long post, but I tried to include as much detail as I could! Any and all help would be MUCH APPRICIATED!!!


----------



## Ode1891

i feel for ya , i've been there too.

good luck


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## dt5150

i had almost the same issue except mine was elevation. i'm not done yet, but what i ended up having to to was move my sight up the next set of holes and move my rest all the way up to compensate for it. it wasn't dead on like before, but it was still pretty close. but it left me with all the vertical adjustment (i needed to move down some more) i would need. 

for you, perhaps try starting over. center your rest, and re-sight your sight. then get it dialed in like normal with fp's. then try to bh tune again. essentially, start from scratch but with your sight and rest in different positions. so far, it's made the difference for me because now i have all kinds of room for adjustment with my rest. i'm certainly no expert by any means, but maybe this could help.


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## Kavy

Working on my broadhead tune but hitting my head against the wall at this point.

2006 Bowtech Tribute. 28" Draw set at 68 lbs. back down from 72.
28.25" GT Xt Hunters 7595
100gr Field tips
100gr Muzzy 3-blade and 100gr. Slick Trick standard
Ripcord rest.

Started by stacking field tips at 25 yds about 1" groups of 3-4 arrows. Shot a single broadhead multiple times ever so slightly high less than an inch but about 2.5 inches left. Moved rest 1/16" right. 

Second round. Stacking filed tips again however now right of bull by about 2" with the broadhead hitting just left of bull by about .5". Suggesting no change in tightening the group between filed tips and broadhead. Continued with one more 1/16" adjustment of rest to the right. Resulted in field tips grouping again further to the right with broadhead hitting the center x at the right elevation but still 2.5" or so right of filed tips. 

At this point I stopped and wondering what next as a 1/4" move has not tightened the group and field tips are moving considerable right with each move. 

Should I look at shooting 125 grain tip and assume spine maybe a little stiff. I tried 5575 out this bow with some in consistant results in the past. Both arrows appear to fly true and straight. Will say the slick trick is grouping better than the Muzzy with the muzzy consistantly 4" left of the the field tips.

No indication of fletching contact shooting 2" Blazers with knock slightly rotated to avoid bow string.

Any direction is appreciated.

Thanks


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## Kavy

came home after work and cranked the poundage back up to 72lbs and this seemed to do the trick would suggest that I may be a over splinned a bit, correct. Broadheads are shooting at 25yds right with my field tips. I will step it back tomorrow and check further out. 

Bum shoulder can not take as much shooting at 72lbs. May look into back the poundage down and shooting a heavier head.

I do like the fact that my trajectory is flat enough at 72lbs that from 10-30 yds I can use one pin with about 3" Vertical height difference. This bow is a shooter for sure. Big step from my old LX.


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## linehand

Any help is appreciated......

Shooting 25 1/2" GT xt hunter 5575 straight factory fletched 4" vanes w/ 75gr wasp sst's out of a Switchback xt with 70# draw.

Drive tacks w/ FT's but BH's about 8" right and an inch or so low. Am I correct in assuming the Spine is too weak? Could back off limbs but am afraid I'd have to go too far ( plus I really don't want to) to correct the problem. Have already moved rest left and now looking down the shaft bow looks like its set up for a finger style shooter. 

I guess what I'm asking is if I would be better off getting a stiffer spined arrow and if need be going with a heavier BH, rather than keep trying to adjust to improve POI. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Don Schultz

linehand,

You can't assume weak spine, but you can test for the problem. Try backing the poundage down not a a permanent solution, but to see what effect this change alone has on your point of impact for both field points and broadheads. 

I don't think you have a spine issue because of the short length of the arrows but this is a good way to check. 

If things don't change much, review the first several posts that Doc made at the beginning of the thread and merge the groups.




linehand said:


> Any help is appreciated......
> 
> Shooting 25 1/2" GT xt hunter 5575 straight factory fletched 4" vanes w/ 75gr wasp sst's out of a Switchback xt with 70# draw.
> 
> Drive tacks w/ FT's but BH's about 8" right and an inch or so low. Am I correct in assuming the Spine is too weak? Could back off limbs but am afraid I'd have to go too far ( plus I really don't want to) to correct the problem. Have already moved rest left and now looking down the shaft bow looks like its set up for a finger style shooter.
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is if I would be better off getting a stiffer spined arrow and if need be going with a heavier BH, rather than keep trying to adjust to improve POI.
> 
> Thanks in advance


----------



## linehand

Ok I'll try that. Will I need to re- paper tune the bow before starting with the rest adjustments if I lower the draw weight?


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## Don Schultz

It would be OK to shoot paper just to see where you are, but I wouldn't expect a big change. 



linehand said:


> Ok I'll try that. Will I need to re- paper tune the bow before starting with the rest adjustments if I lower the draw weight?


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## linehand

Thanks Don! I got so hung up on spine that I couldn't see other things going on. My QAD was advanced, after fixing that and shootin some more paper everything just came together. Now, how close is close enough? Need to buy new nocks and refletch a few arrows. Farthest measurement shaft of ft to shaft of bh (center to center) was 1 3/8". Thanks again for pulling my head out of my arse!


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## stalley

Back on page 8, I posted about the problems I've been experiencing with broadhead tuning... Dose anyone have any suggestions for me? I'm kind of at a loss at this point... Any suggestions would be welcomed....


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## candless

stalley said:


> Back on page 8, I posted about the problems I've been experiencing with broadhead tuning... Dose anyone have any suggestions for me? I'm kind of at a loss at this point... Any suggestions would be welcomed....


400's at 65# @ 26"...seems stiff to me...try cranking your bow poundage up to 70#


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## stalley

candless said:


> 400's at 65# @ 26"...seems stiff to me...try cranking your bow poundage up to 70#


Candless, that is something I have yet to try. I was actually worried that I could have been _underspined_... I'll give it a try though. Thanks for the advice...


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## slsspark

Doc said:


> Brian, have you tried to rotate your nocks 1/4 to 1/2 turn?
> Also you need to make sure your idler lean is properly set on that Diamond. Check the string feed into the idler at full draw...it should feed straight within...if not twist the appropriate side of the yoke cable accordingly.


I have not found anything that says what the lean should be, mine centerlines to the outside edge of the lower limb at rest and the center of the limb where the axle runs through. Do you want it to line up perfectly with the lower cam string grove at full draw? 

another off topic how much riser deflection is common, mine is around 3/8" at load and I measured at the "crotch" of the limb and the centerline of the limb bolts. I even leveled out the sight window and the riser above and below are not level with the string and cables installed.


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## slsspark

*ttt*

bump


----------



## Wbuffetjr1

Used this thread today and it finally solved my problem. Thanks Doc!!


----------



## buckangler

*fletching contact*

Put on a new ripcord rest. I am noticing that I have fletching that is contacting that little U shaped arrow holder on the shelf of my riser. I notice my fps still grouping together. My bhs are everywhere. I have not been down this road before. Does fletching contact have a bigger impact when shooting bhs? Also it sounds like my rest might need to move higher. should I take my bow in to have an adjusment made on my d loop? We want our arrows to be parallel at full draw right? thanks in advance


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## lewistg

does it matter at what yardage to do this?


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## IGluIt4U

buckangler said:


> Put on a new ripcord rest. I am noticing that I have fletching that is contacting that little U shaped arrow holder on the shelf of my riser. I notice my fps still grouping together. My bhs are everywhere. I have not been down this road before. Does fletching contact have a bigger impact when shooting bhs? Also it sounds like my rest might need to move higher. should I take my bow in to have an adjusment made on my d loop? We want our arrows to be parallel at full draw right? thanks in advance


Broadheads are much more sensitive to vane contact or mistuning. Broadhead tuning will help you to establish your nocking point, parallel or a tad nock high is normal. You should be able to 'twist' you loop up or down the serving without having to go to a shop. See which way your serving is wound and twist the loop knots together around the serving to raise or lower you nock point. 

If you are hitting the arrow holder, you probably need to raise your rest to clear it. :wink:


lewistg said:


> does it matter at what yardage to do this?


The further the better.. I'd tune at the maximum distance you feel comfortable shooting. The further away you are, the better tune you'll get. :wink: I tune my broadheads out to about 60 yds. May never shoot that far, but I'm heading west for elk.. one never knows. If they impact the same at that distance, everything in between is on ... :thumb:


----------



## full moon

*please help!*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok....Field pts are grouping....so sited in at 20yds....Now when I put the broadhead on they hit rt 3-4inches on the same plane...So move the rest etc too the left 1/16...Ok hitting where field pts are hitting,...
Now the problem begins!!!!
Put my field pts back on....Shoot at 20yds now field pts are hitting left 3-4 inches left..,,,,not hitting where my broadheads are hitting?Now what....


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## crawdad

full moon,

Don't forget that after you move your rest your field pts POI will move that way. Did you re-shoot *both* FP and BH *after* moving the rest? As long as the groups are getting closer, you are going in the right direction. When they group together, then adjust the sight. It took me a while yesterday but I am getting close, thanks to this thread, and can probably finish today. So far I am within an inch or so at 25 yards.

CD


----------



## XtremeOutdoors

I wanted to thank everyone for giving me this much needed info, I have been bow hunting for 5 years now & never knew until this year that I needed to tune my broadheads, I always assumed it was fine. I have done so and they fly great now! I feel 110% more confident I can make a great shot this year!:darkbeer:


----------



## XtremeOutdoors

The way I did it was that I got my field tips and broadheads shooting at the same place and then I moved my sight to where I wanted the arrows to go and I am great now.


----------



## cd6

*problem tuning*

i have been trying to broadhead tune for weeks. i have an x force 6 with a phantom drop away.i can paper tune fine until i try to broad head tune. my bh seem to just follow my fp up and down about 6" apart at 20yds.thats with the broad head shootin low.ive even tried an old quick tune rest same results.i shoot the muzzy mx 3 100gr. carbon force 350. my draw is 30". 

can some one please give me some input.my nock point is lower than myrest now with same results.


----------



## Don Schultz

cd6 said:


> until i try to broad head tune. my bh seem to just follow my fp up and down about 6" apart at 20yds.thats with the broad head shootin low.


If you cannot get the bhs to move toward the fps it is because the arrows are not getting out of the bow cleanly, or they are badly underspined. I've not had the experience but I'll add that really poor cam synching that leads to poor nock travel may also be a problem that can't be tuned out. 

If your nock point is below the rest, the arrow can't be getting out cleanly. It must be pushing the rest out of the way.

I touched up my bh tune today, using 50 yard groups. Really adds to the confidence. My Muzzys are ready to fly in the morning.


----------



## crawdad

I had a setback on my tuning that I am trying to work thru using the advice on this thread. I thought I was getting close, about an inch to go at 25 yds, moved my rest a bit more, then got fliers, plus my two practice bh's were not grouping well. I spin tested them and they appear straight - no wobble. Did the lipstick test and found contact with my Shakey Hunter arm. Brought it to the shop to be re-timed and should get it today. I just hope they don't move the rest back to where it was to get the timing back or I will be headed in a big circle.

I plan to swap the bh's onto different arrows if they don't group together and see if that helps. I hope to bh tune tonight after another vane clearance check.

Still learning a lot from you all and really appreciate it.


----------



## crawdad

*Archer tries to learn from mistakes*

I got my bow back from the shop, and the man who adjusted the timing said he could see I was moving the rest around (I had made a scratch in the black metal to index my starting point.) He said he had it paper tuned well, showed me the paper tears, and told me to leave the rest alone. I told him I had been moving it to BH tune. He said I should buy some mechanicals and go hunting.

Some quick shots at the range had me thinking the BH were grouping with the FP, so I left all optimistic.

I learned from the last go-around, and from Doc's and others' input, and checked for vane clearance first. No contact. Then my FP's were 3" higher than BH's at 25 yds! Of course, I decided not to listen to advice (don't move the rest) because that would be like giving up on BH tuning - I can do this! However, the more I raise my rest, the tighter the string gets, meaning my rest will drop later, possibly contacting vanes again.

I followed Doc's tuning sequence, and just when I was starting to get nervous, my BH's caught up to my FP's, (I had to move the rest ~1/4 inch total). I checked for clearance with foot powder, still no contact. A couple of sight adjustments later, I think I am good to go, at least at 20 yds, although my elbow is hurting this morning.

I may be a slow study, but I am persistent. Thanks again for the helpful advice.


----------



## SEOBowhntr

crawdad said:


> I got my bow back from the shop, and the man who adjusted the timing said he could see I was moving the rest around (I had made a scratch in the black metal to index my starting point.) He said he had it paper tuned well, showed me the paper tears, and told me to leave the rest alone. I told him I had been moving it to BH tune. He said I should buy some mechanicals and go hunting.
> 
> Some quick shots at the range had me thinking the BH were grouping with the FP, so I left all optimistic.
> 
> I learned from the last go-around, and from Doc's and others' input, and checked for vane clearance first. No contact. Then my FP's were 3" higher than BH's at 25 yds! Of course, I decided not to listen to advice (don't move the rest) because that would be like giving up on BH tuning - I can do this! However, the more I raise my rest, the tighter the string gets, meaning my rest will drop later, possibly contacting vanes again.
> 
> I followed Doc's tuning sequence, and just when I was starting to get nervous, my BH's caught up to my FP's, (I had to move the rest ~1/4 inch total). I checked for clearance with foot powder, still no contact. A couple of sight adjustments later, I think I am good to go, at least at 20 yds, although my elbow is hurting this morning.
> 
> I may be a slow study, but I am persistent. Thanks again for the helpful advice.


That guy in that shop probably has some nice expensive Rages he wanted to sell you!!!! Good choice not listening, you'll find that you're shooting BOTH BH's and FP's better if you "TUNE" your bow!!!!


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## Doc

crawdad said:


> I got my bow back from the shop, and the man who adjusted the timing said he could see I was moving the rest around (I had made a scratch in the black metal to index my starting point.) He said he had it paper tuned well, showed me the paper tears, and told me to leave the rest alone. I told him I had been moving it to BH tune. He said I should buy some mechanicals and go hunting.
> 
> Some quick shots at the range had me thinking the BH were grouping with the FP, so I left all optimistic.
> 
> I learned from the last go-around, and from Doc's and others' input, and checked for vane clearance first. No contact. Then my FP's were 3" higher than BH's at 25 yds! Of course, I decided not to listen to advice (don't move the rest) because that would be like giving up on BH tuning - I can do this! However, the more I raise my rest, the tighter the string gets, meaning my rest will drop later, possibly contacting vanes again.
> 
> I followed Doc's tuning sequence, and just when I was starting to get nervous, my BH's caught up to my FP's, (I had to move the rest ~1/4 inch total). I checked for clearance with foot powder, still no contact. A couple of sight adjustments later, I think I am good to go, at least at 20 yds, although my elbow is hurting this morning.
> 
> I may be a slow study, but I am persistent. Thanks again for the helpful advice.


Great job:thumb: Way to stick with it...kudos for that. The next time you do it, it'll go much smoother.


----------



## pa10point

Thanks Doc. I shoot a 2004 BowTech Justice, which shoots a very nice hole in paper, and for the first time, I have my field points and my broadheads grouping together. 

In the past, I would simply put the practice Montecs on, shoot a group which was typically 3-4 inches right, then move the sights. When ready to start shooting video or 3-D after the season, put the fp back on and move the sights back.

Thanks for the help -- what confidence I have knowing that my bow set up is correct.


----------



## MichHunter

Thanks DOC!!

I am excited to try this.

Do you line up your blades with your vanes or do you not believe that is necessary?


----------



## Doc

MichHunter said:


> Thanks DOC!!
> 
> I am excited to try this.
> 
> Do you line up your blades with your vanes or do you not believe that is necessary?


Not necessary...the critical thing is that the heads spin true...vane alignment is not an issue.


----------



## str8sh2ter

*my .02 worth*

I took about 3 hrs. and finally got BH and FP hitting together.Let me says thanks to DOC first off.
What i found is that my pro shop isn't real good at setting up a bow. I had to adjust the WB rest about 3/16 left to get the arrows on the target together.I was able to correct elevation without a problem.I was stuck 5-7 right with the BH's.
As others have observed,don't be afr4aid to adjust the sight slightly[a very little at a time]to chase the FPs over to the BH's.I guess if you move the rest tooo much ,everything get out of whack.Alittle sight adjustment brings things closer.
Once you get them closer you have to play with the sight more to fine tune.I was within 1.5" and adjusted the rest.This threw me back out to 3".I returned the res to previous position and tunes the sight alittle instead.Results were 3/4' groups at 20yds.I tweeked like this for awhile til I was satified that any variables were cause by the "Nut behind the Wheel".
I moved out to 30yds and shot few with real good results/I guess I'm "Good To Go" until i drop the bow or run over it or something.ALSO subject to whether i can hit anything tomorrow.
It works but If your starting alittle too far from on,It will take some time to get it right. GOOD LUCK ALL.


----------



## SoutherntierBowhuntr

*Broadhead Tune*

I have to begin this post by thanking Doc and all the others who contributed for all the great advice. I spent a few hrs. trying to broadhead tune in a slight wind hoping that a little wind wouldn't affect my arrows while tuning. Must have been a bigger factor than I thought cause' after trying for so long and getting nowhere, I gave up and went to bed. Came out the next day...much calmer,both me and the wind...and found the work I did the day before was right on. My fieldpoints and broadheads were grouping and inch apart at 30 yds. and 40 and 50 were on. I was lucky to get the adjustments right in spite of the wind but my only advice is to wait for the calmest day possible to do such critical tuning outdoors.


----------



## TBradley

*Great info!!*

Went to do the broadhead tuning method. Got my field points dead on at 20 yards, then shot my broadheads, they flew 3" high and 1" right. Followed the procedure and about 30 to 45 minutes later both field points and broadheads (NAP Hellrazors 100's) were dead on. It didn't take much movement on the rest either. Like I said this is very good information!! THANK YOU Doc.


----------



## linehand

Ok, so I got the POI situation fixed here's another ? My fieldpoint tipped arrows are stiking the target dead on perpendicular to the face of the target, my broadhead tippped arrows however look something like this / (view from above, target toward top of page) what now?


----------



## Doc

SoutherntierBowhuntr said:


> I have to begin this post by thanking Doc and all the others who contributed for all the great advice.


You're quite welcome...glad it worked out well for you.



TBradley said:


> Like I said this is very good information!! THANK YOU Doc.


Thank you for taking the time to read and do this:thumb: :beer:


----------



## Doc

linehand said:


> Ok, so I got the POI situation fixed here's another ? My fieldpoint tipped arrows are stiking the target dead on perpendicular to the face of the target, my broadhead tippped arrows however look something like this / (view from above, target toward top of page) what now?


This could be something as simple as the type of target you are using and how much foam is left.
It could also be a stability issue...what vanes are you using?
It could also be an FOC issue...arrow length? Weight? BH weight?

How are your groups?


----------



## linehand

Doc said:


> This could be something as simple as the type of target you are using and how much foam is left.
> It could also be a stability issue...what vanes are you using?
> It could also be an FOC issue...arrow length? Weight? BH weight?
> 
> How are your groups?


Shooting a block 4x4 thats in pretty good shape. Straight factory fletched gold tip hunters 55/75, 25 1/2", with 75 gr wasp fixed blade bh. 70# Mathews switchback XT

FP group arrows shafts touching each other. BH's shave fletchings off of previous arrow.

I will say I didn't notice the crooked arrows at the bow shop (shot at a large laminated target) but can't remember now if I shot a BH or not.


----------



## Doc

linehand said:


> FP group arrows shafts touching each other. BH's shave fletchings off of previous arrow.


If you are shooting that tight of groups, then I wouldn't worry about it. Also if it was truly a component issue, those 4 inch vanes would have things stabilized well within 20 yards. Your FP's are grouping, your BH's are grouping and your FP's are grouping with your BH's---->get into the woods:nod:
:archer:


----------



## linehand

10-4 thanks again Doc, just wanted to make sure was nothing to worry about. Used to be a "sight pin mover" . Thanks for all the help.


----------



## chrismtl

Hi,
I was wondering what kind of targets you can use to BH tune. Would the arrows go straight through a FP target?


----------



## Don Schultz

*Really off topic*



chrismtl said:


> Hi,
> I was wondering what kind of targets you can use to BH tune. Would the arrows go straight through a FP target?


Not a bad question but its covered in other threads including the "Do it yourself" threads/folder. Please take it there.


----------



## D-TRAIN

This question may have been answered, but I really hated to search through 10 pages. Couldn't find it with the search feature

Lets say I would need to move my rest down. With a drop away, am I right in thinking that by dropping my rest I will have to re-tie the drop away cord? If I didn't re-tie, it wouldn't pull the rest all the way up. correct?


----------



## Don Schultz

*It's a system. Everything is connected.*

Proper rest adjustment is an issue independent of the tuning method. In my opinion (your results may vary) drop away rests should come to its full up in the last one inch of draw. A slight height adjustment could require adjusting whatever makes the rest come up. 

*HOWEVER* you have the option of adjusting the nock location also. The nock location needs to go in the opposite direction of the rest. 

Yes, if you move the nock, you will likely have to move your peep. :mg:

....and the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone and the leg bone is connected to the knee bone and the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone....



D-TRAIN said:


> .....Lets say I would need to move my rest down. With a drop away, am I right in thinking that by dropping my rest I will have to re-tie the drop away cord? If I didn't re-tie, it wouldn't pull the rest all the way up. correct?


----------



## Dliberty13

Thanks for the terrific tuning info. This is just what I was looking for. Just wondering if the broadhead and fletchings should be aligned? If so, what about 2 or 4 blade heads? What effect, if any, does this have on arrow flight?


----------



## Doc

Dliberty13 said:


> Thanks for the terrific tuning info. This is just what I was looking for. Just wondering if the broadhead and fletchings should be aligned? If so, what about 2 or 4 blade heads? What effect, if any, does this have on arrow flight?


No reason to align fletchings and blades, just be sure the head spins true on the end of the shaft and you have no clearance issues (Blade or fletching)...just forget about the orientation between the 2...doesn't matter. Happy Thanksgiving:turkey:


----------



## Doc

chrismtl said:


> Hi,
> I was wondering what kind of targets you can use to BH tune. Would the arrows go straight through a FP target?


I have found the Rinehart 18-in-1 to be the best of both worlds targets. I use it extensively for field points throughout the year and also use it for broadhead tuning...durable and portable:thumb:
Happy Thanksgiving:turkey:


----------



## losjinx

bluegrasshunter said:


> Thanks. I'll be finishing up my BH tuning and sight in this afternoon after work.:wink:


Thanks guys this is a great thread.:darkbeer: Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## razorback111

There's a lot to learn from a post like this. As I'm new to this forum, I'm unable to view all of Doc's submission until I'm posted twice, so here's number one.


----------



## razorback111

And here's number two. Cheers


----------



## nocknroll

razorback111 said:


> There's a lot to learn from a post like this. As I'm new to this forum, I'm unable to view all of Doc's submission until I'm posted twice, so here's number one.


cosigned

Basically a noob to bowhunting, I've been lurking for awhile but I can't see links or pics til I post. This is one of my favorite threads.


----------



## D-TRAIN

Don Schultz said:


> Proper rest adjustment is an issue independent of the tuning method. In my opinion (your results may vary) drop away rests should come to its full up in the last one inch of draw. A slight height adjustment could require adjusting whatever makes the rest come up.


How can you determine when the rest comes up? Here's what my pro shop does. Install the rest and tie the cord but not tight. They then put the bow on a bow scale and push the bow down thus drawing the bow. The cord will pull the rest up and then the knot slides untill the bow reaches full draw. Let down the bow and tie it tight.

It seems to me that there is one spot to tie the knot so the cord pulls tight at full draw. 

I hope I explained my reasoning clearly. Can someone set me straight? I need to move my rest down.


----------



## Chenry

Great post Doc! Thanks


----------



## cmillett79

A+ thread :d


----------



## Ode1891

Doc said:


> I have found the Rinehart 18-in-1 to be the best of both worlds targets. I use it extensively for field points throughout the year and also use it for broadhead tuning...durable and portable:thumb:
> Happy Thanksgiving:turkey:


Curious about the rinehart. Do you prop it against something? It looks like it was designed to hang by a rope or be thrown? I love the material in the rinehart 3D targets--easy arrow removal. I was thinking about getting the 18-1 since my yellow jacket is getting chewed up.


----------



## sprout519

This is awesome info. Great questions and answers and lots of insight as to what is really going on. Doc, thanks for your input and getting everyone involved. This is every bowhunters endstate and it finially makes sense!


----------



## k9trainer

I'm sorry if this is a repeat but I didn't read through all the pages. But here's my question:
If I do this style tuning it shouldn't matter which tip I use, FP or BH they should both be within inches of each other as far as POI after I tune it this way? Is this what I am gathering or am I wrong?


----------



## Bowhunter 1188

I didn't read through all of the responses. I just switched to Blazer vanes from feathers. My bow was paper tuned, and shot Muzzy MX4 broadheads perfectly with my 4" right helical feathers. Once I switched to Blazers, my first broadhead shot missed completely to the right. So I moved my rest in 1/16" increments to the left. This didn't work. I began to run out of room. If anything, the difference between fieldpoint and broadhead was getting greater. So, I put the rest back in its original position. The BH's were still off to the right. So, I moved the rest to the right just to see what would happen. Amazingly, a small adjustment to the right worked! Now my bow is tuned for Blazers!

So I learned 2 things from my tuning session.

First of all, feathers are more forgiving than Blazers on bows that might not be perfectly tuned. My feathers steered the BH's to hit with the FP's.

Second thing I learned is that your rest might need to be moved in the opposite direction than what you think is logical. First follow the instructions, and move it in the correct direction according to the info posted on this thread, but if that doesn't work, try to other direction.

Thanks for posting this informative thread. I really appreciate it!


----------



## KTurmel

i try this over and over again with the same results everytiem; broadheads and pratices heads moving the same distance apart form each other. for some reason it just doesent work for me.


----------



## Bowhunter 1188

KTurmel said:


> i try this over and over again with the same results everytiem; broadheads and pratices heads moving the same distance apart form each other. for some reason it just doesent work for me.


So you're saying no matter where your rest is, the distance is still the same between the BH's and the FP's? I'm just trying to understand what you said.

Check for clearance problems. Maybe the arrows aren't properly spined? Maybe you're torquing the bow a little bit? Could be that you are moving the rest too much. Tough to say, but all of those are a possibility as to why it might not work for you.


----------



## Green River

*Question*

I was wondering why the FP impact didn't move to the right after you moved the rest to the right 1/16" twice for a total of 1/8''?


----------



## SEOBowhntr

*Ttt*

Because reading some of the posts recently, I think there are a few guys who could use it. :thumbs_up


----------



## adamsmith007

A couple guys keep talking about back tuning...what is that?


----------



## Doc

adamsmith007 said:


> A couple guys keep talking about back tuning...what is that?


They are talking about walk-back tuning. Briefly, use your 20 yard pin shoot at 10 yards aiming at a small spot on the target...move back to 20 yards and use the same pin and shoot at the same spot...move back to 30 yards and use the same pin (20 yards) and shoot at the same spot...your arrows should be in a straight line from top to bottom. If they are not adjust your rest accordingly...if they look like this / move your rest to the right...if they look like this \ move your rest to the left. If you cannot achieve solid shots with one arrow at each yardage, then shoot 2 or 3 at each yardage....this is the Cliff's notes version.


----------



## Ode1891

Bowhunter 1188 said:


> First of all, feathers are more forgiving than Blazers on bows that might not be perfectly tuned. My feathers steered the BH's to hit with the FP's.
> 
> Second thing I learned is that your rest might need to be moved in the opposite direction than what you think is logical. First follow the instructions, and move it in the correct direction according to the info posted on this thread, but if that doesn't work, try to other direction.


Yep. I read the entire tuning manual I downloaded from Easton and that's exactly what it said, if doing this does not work for your set up, do the opposite. I about fell over. Luckily for me , I never had that situation!


----------



## 5MilesBack

Ode1891 said:


> I read the entire tuning manual I downloaded from Easton and that's exactly what it said, if doing this does not work for your set up, do the opposite. I about fell over. Luckily for me , I never had that situation!


I have that exact situation. If I try to move my BH's to my FP's, it gets worse. I have to move my FP's to my BH's to close the gap.

I thought this thread was a sticky.......why is it lumped in with everything else today?


----------



## Campo

Sticky got removed a few months ago... :sad:



5MilesBack said:


> I have that exact situation. If I try to move my BH's to my FP's, it gets worse. I have to move my FP's to my BH's to close the gap.
> 
> I thought this thread was a sticky.......why is it lumped in with everything else today?


----------



## Bowhunter 1188

Ode1891 said:


> Yep. I read the entire tuning manual I downloaded from Easton and that's exactly what it said, if doing this does not work for your set up, do the opposite. I about fell over. Luckily for me , I never had that situation!


TTT

Yeah, I can't explain why it worked just the opposite for my bow, but it did. I had to chase the broadheads with the field points. Weird, but the important thing is the FP's and BH's are shooting together now! Just wanted to save some people some frustration by letting them know my experience.


----------



## SilverFlash

*Great Thread!*

Great info... Thank you


----------



## BSeals71

Bump!


----------



## kzz1king

Looking at this post again is getting me fired up to broad head tune again! Soon as the mud and snow are gone. 2 things that made a big difference for me are spine and arrow/insert squareness.

I broadhead tuned with a 400 spine and got it close but could never get them together at longer ranges (50-60). I tried a 340 that I left just a little longer for more weight and to weaken it a little and things fell into place.

Squaring shaft and inserts has also improved my consistency. I seldom have to designate a shaft to FP only anymore.


----------



## Don Schultz

kzz1king said:


> I broadhead tuned with a 400 spine and got it close but could never get them together at longer ranges (50-60). I tried a 340 that I left just a little longer for more weight and to weaken it a little and things fell into place.
> 
> Squaring shaft and inserts has also improved my consistency. I seldom have to designate a shaft to FP only anymore.


Great advice. I consider my G5 ASD to be one of my better investments. :shade:


----------



## Semper Venatio

*Worked again*

I just pulled this thread up again for reference and as usual it worked like a charm. I tuned this bow with this method and have no issues with my Magnus 100g two blades. Thanks again!!!!


----------



## legacy_hunter02

i have been messing around with mine some in the past few days and i still cant get them to line up....BH are grouping great...3 in a bout 1-1.5 inches feild tips the same but the BH are about 2" to the right....have moved the rest and still cant get them in the same spot i have jsut about wore out my imitation block style target...wish my Reinhart 18-1 would hurry up and get here.....im about to get frustrated and try a diffrent head or something


----------



## talon1961

I hadn't shot since Feb., but after reading again posts in this thread I just had to go out and shoot a couple of arrows to try out my new ST magnums. I shot my FT first and it was right on the money. My 2nd Shot was with the Slick Trick Magnum 100 gr. Sliced one of the fletchings off of my first arrow. Now I have to refletch, but I know my bow is tuned very well. Thanks Doc for this great thread. I used the info here on AT to fine tune my BH and FT to the same POI.


----------



## jdcamo

Got one for you guys,
I am shooting at Bowtech Sentinel at 70 lbs. I have a 26.5 inch draw length. I am shooting Carbontech Rhino 55/80 arrows at 27.5 inches long fletched with 2 inch blazer vanes. Tipped with a 125 grain points (Snuffer SS Bh's) . Rest is a Limbdriver drop away. Also using a Carter thumb release.

I eye balled my centershot and set it up in the middle of the shelf. I shot to tune it. My broadheads are hitting to the right of the field points about 2-4 inches. So i move my rest toward the Bh's and nothing changed except for everything moving to the side. it seems I cant close the gap. Any ideas?

According to tuning charts this would indicate a weak spine reaction. But my arrows should be on the stiff side if anything. Bow is at factory specs. Shouldn't be hand torque. Also i checked and I am not getting vane contact.


----------



## 5MilesBack

jdcamo said:


> So i move my rest toward the Bh's and nothing changed except for everything moving to the side. it seems I cant close the gap. Any ideas?


Try moving your rest towards your FP's. If one doesn't work, the other should. If that doesn't help, and you're not getting any fletching contact, play around with the draw weight. If all else fails, try a different BH or different arrows.


----------



## SEOBowhntr

TTT for a great thread for guys to check out....


----------



## Out West

*BH Tuning*

Posting so I can find this again.


----------



## IGluIt4U

Out West said:


> Posting so I can find this again.


Here's a tip.. you can click on thread tools and 'subscribe to thread' and then you can find it on your thread subscription list, which you can get from the quick links above..  :darkbeer: (that way you don't have to post. )


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## Gary K

Must've done too much tinkering over the spring because broadheads were no longer hitting with my field points. So went back to this old thread for reminders on how to get them together, and all is well again.

Thought others might like to see again... it's getting close to that time!

:darkbeer:


----------



## jjcard41

*great*

I've been meaning to do some broadhead tuning and I am so glad I found this old thread. Going to go out right now and get everything ready. My field points were on and by broadheads are shooting low and to the left, just like the thread starter.
thanks,

jerry


----------



## gbear

*ttt*

just marking it


----------



## FULLATTACK

this is great but will your arrows still fly straight out to 60 70 and 80 yards? won't it be out of tune? can some one please clarify this for me, thx?


----------



## gbear

FULLATTACK said:


> this is great but will your arrows still fly straight out to 60 70 and 80 yards? won't it be out of tune? can some one please clarify this for me, thx?


Arrows will fly as straight as an arrow, pun intended. My bow tuned will group the heads and the FPs together at 70 yds in a 4" group, when i do my part.
Also go the Starflight website. They have video of somebody shooting FOBs with heads at 100 yds. 
When it's tuned just right and the heads are on straight, no problem.


----------



## Don Schultz

Your bow will be fine tuned. This tuning method is essentially a variation of bare shaft tuning. The broadhead tipped arrows are the aerodynamically less stable 'bare shafts' in this case. 

I'll take a moment to restate the pre-existing problems that will keep this tuning method from working for you. 1.) Arrow contact while exiting the bow. 2.) Underspined, or extremely overspined arrow shafts. 3.) Extremely poor nock travel caused by poor cam synch or incorrect single cam timing (rollover).

I'm not going to number it but I'll mention, that I was asked to help a fellow tune and "untunable" bow, over the phone. Indeed, while trying to paper tune the bow, it seemed unresponsive to rest movement, nock point movement, and even arrow spine AND draw weight changes. He insisted that foot powder and lipstick checks were negative for any rest or riser contact. When I finally got an eyeball on the bow, I immediately noted that the rubber tube on the peepsight was very short, and highly stretched during the draw. Besides presenting serious risk to the shooter's eyesight, the tension of the tube was upsetting things enough that the bow would not tune. We removed the tube, and instantly, the bow responded, and shot well.


----------



## scrapejuice

make this a sticky again mods for the approaching season!!


----------



## FULLATTACK

hey thanks alot gbear and don for all the clarification it makes more sense now. good luck this season.


----------



## Stanley

Where has DOC gone. Been over 3 months????


----------



## RxBowhunter

scrapejuice said:


> make this a sticky again mods for the approaching season!!


You read my mind! :thumb: I was reminded to "stick" this thread last night when my fixed blade broadhead planed 10" above the spot @ 30 yards at the range. :wink: Work to do. :smile:



Stanley said:


> Where has DOC gone. Been over 3 months????


I dunno Stanley. :noidea: I'll send Eric an email today and let him know he's missed. :thumb:


----------



## Brad&SUE

*broadhead tuning ?*

I centered my rest than did this method and now my rest is way , way left of center but bh and fp hit same spot .Is this nomal or am I mising something ?


----------



## bigracklover

Brad&SUE said:


> I centered my rest than did this method and now my rest is way , way left of center but bh and fp hit same spot .Is this nomal or am I mising something ?



To me, what you described is not normal. Backup and check tuning with other methods like walkback, paper or bareshaft then screw on your bh's, I'll bet you won't have to move your rest much at all to get your POI the same as your fp's.


----------



## AmishArcher

this thread is great. Is there any way to put together a printer friendly version so someone could take it outside with them when they shoot? Or will it print fairly easily off the 1st page? Just a thought, thanks doc, you da man


----------



## gbear

AmishArcher said:


> this thread is great. Is there any way to put together a printer friendly version so someone could take it outside with them when they shoot? Or will it print fairly easily off the 1st page? Just a thought, thanks doc, you da man


I usually pick the landscape mode for printer and then whichever pages I want. you will need pages 2-9 in landscape to get DOC's original post. 
Be sure to read thru the whole thread, there is some good stuff inbetween the first and last page.


----------



## rodney482

Stanley said:


> Where has DOC gone. Been over 3 months????


my thoughts exactly,,,,I havnt seen him on any message boards.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## scrapejuice

gbear said:


> I usually pick the landscape mode for printer and then whichever pages I want. you will need pages 2-9 in landscape to get DOC's original post.
> Be sure to read thru the whole thread, there is some good stuff inbetween the first and last page.


You can highlight the posts you want to print, then select "print selection" on your printer menu when it pops up.


----------



## scrapejuice

Brad&SUE said:


> I centered my rest than did this method and now my rest is way , way left of center but bh and fp hit same spot .Is this nomal or am I mising something ?


just a thought, check to make sure your not getting nock pinch with your loop. One way to check is take your fp/bh off and put he arrow on the string. pull your bow back, if your arrow lifts off your rest, then you are getting arrow/nock pinch. IF that is the case, no matter what you do, bh's wont' fly good. Spread your loop and serve inside of it on top and bottom leaving approx. 1/16" below your arrow nock to the bottom serving, obviously your arrow nock should be up against your upper served nock point. Then tie your d-loop up against both servings on the bottom and top.

I had this problem recently. I was getting the exact same results as you were. It about drove me crazy till I figured out what it was.


----------



## fantarain

So you basically mean that if the rest is in the correct place, the broad head will shoot the same place of the field point. Is that the case for all brands of broad head?


----------



## Don Schultz

*Read the whole thread again*

You are WAY over simplifying the message. 

dThe guy who started the thread and others like me who have used this technique talk about merging groups. That's different from fp and bh shooting the same place. If you are getting 16" bh groups, and 3" fp groups, are you gonna be happy with the fp group just being inside that 16" circle? I hope not.

You need to have things working well, tight fp groups, reasonably tight bh groups, THEN you adjust the rest to merge the groups. This is the last thing you do, after everything else is working well.




fantarain said:


> So you basically mean that if the rest is in the correct place, the broad head will shoot the same place of the field point. Is that the case for all brands of broad head?


----------



## fantarain

Thanks for your reply. The reason I wrote my previous post was because I saw on the first 4,5 steps was all moving the rest to make the fp and bh shoot to the same point, and the last step was to move the point back to center. So I think broadhead tune is still part of the fine tune. If your bow is perfectly tuned, including the rest is in perfect centershot, the cam is timed, etc. etc. your bh should fly the same as your fp. That's the idea of the thread. The menu of bow should tell you the same technique, at least mine is. But my question is not all broadheads are created equal. Some fly better than others. Some will never fly the same way as the field point. That's why so many discussion on AT about which bh is better than the other. If this is the case, the tune technique is pointless, because it won't fit for some bh which will never hit the same point of fp no matter how you tune it. So first thing to do before the tune is to make sure your bh is able to shoot same as the field point, then you don't wast your time to tune it.



Don Schultz said:


> You are WAY over simplifying the message.
> 
> dThe guy who started the thread and others like me who have used this technique talk about merging groups. That's different from fp and bh shooting the same place. If you are getting 16" bh groups, and 3" fp groups, are you gonna be happy with the fp group just being inside that 16" circle? I hope not.
> 
> You need to have things working well, tight fp groups, reasonably tight bh groups, THEN you adjust the rest to merge the groups. This is the last thing you do, after everything else is working well.


----------



## bowkills

I was wondering if i wanted to use a mech. bh should i tune with a fixed bh to get the best tuning then just change heads?


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## enc-bowhunter

70? I cant see good enough to shoot that far!!! lol Great info


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## MTELKHUNTER

So i have read through this entire post and have learned a TON!! Here is my problem: set up is 101st airborn--- 68.8 lbs draw, 29" draw length, black n gold flash point sights, vapor trail rest, gold tip 5575 XT hunter arrows, shooting shuttle t 125 broadheads, arrows i have been told should be just over 400 grains including heads, was chrono at 306.8 fps after about 200 300 shots. Bow shot perfect bullet holes through paper at about ten yards. With my field tips i can honestly group 3 arrows in about a 5" to 6" group out to seventy yards, not that i plan on shooting that far but fun to practice. Here is the problem, shot 2 ft at 20 yards perfect, shot two bh at 20 yards within an inch or so. moving back to 30 yards same result. moving back to 40 yards and all hell breaks loose!! 2 ft perfect, 2 bh are 6" to left. moved rest about 1/16th" to right and same result, bh and ft are about 6" apart, only both groups are to right of where i am aiming. bottom line is at fourty yards no matter how far i move rest to right bh and ft will not come together, only thing that happens is both groups move a little to the right. hope i am not a broken record but can anyone help me??? i just bought a dozen shuttles last year and don't want to go back to my rockets!!!


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## bowkills

Try moving your rest to the left that is what i had to do with my bh hitting to the right of my fp. i hope this helps.


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## bowkills

Sorry miss read your post sorry but from what i have read off this thread. Some people had to move there rest the oppsite of the way you want the bh to go. meaning you might be to far right already causing the air to hit the right side of the arrow pushing it to the left and by moving more to the right your arrows would go more to the left. Well i hope this helps and wish you luck.


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## Don Schultz

*How to check spine related issues.*



MTELKHUNTER said:


> So i have read through this entire post and have learned a TON!! Here is my problem:......


One time many years ago I had a similar problem and found that when I centered the long range pin in my peep, it caused a subtle change in my bow hand that just hosed everything up. So don't ignore a subtle form problem. 

RE what might be going on w' the bow setup....

My suggestion is to put the rest back where you started. Then carefully back the bow down on draw weight about 5lbs. By careful, I mean to be sure tiller does not change at all. Backing both limb bolts out EXACTLY the same amount is where you start, but check to be sure tiller is still the same.

Then shoot, to see if that helps, or at least changes things. If things get better, then I'd guess the Gold Tips are just a tad underspined. What then? Well, 1.) accept the lower draw weight 2.) lighter arrowheads 3.) stiffer arrow shafts. Pick one.

Best wishes.


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## rut-n-bull

*Thanks*

I am new to bow hunting and i will be doing my first hunt this year for elk. I needed this info as i will be heading out in a few weeks. Thanks to everyone who commented it REALLY helps us newbees.


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## MTELKHUNTER

thanks for the tips don. one quick thought, by backing off the poundage am i just trying to slow the arrow down? if that is the case i had a thought of maybe adding a weight tube to the arrow. would this accomplish the same in slowing the arrow? if so i think i will try that, plus i will get more umph out of my arrow and will be the cheapest way to go. i was also told that my bow will work best the closer it is set to peak draw weight. any thoughts on that??


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## Don Schultz

MTELKHUNTER said:


> thanks for the tips don. one quick thought, by backing off the poundage am i just trying to slow the arrow down?...


What we're trying to do is make the arrow stiffer during the shot (dynamic spine). I think a weight tube may have a similar effect, but I have no empirical evidence of my own as to how much weight would be needed. For the sake of the experiment, I would do the lower draw weight. If it works, then try weight tubes to see if that helps the same way.


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## MTELKHUNTER

so I took the bow out to the range today to try some things and this is what i found. First i backed the poundage off about one full turn and a half, not sure what "tiller" is but i did measure from limb pocket to string on top and bottom to make sure they were the same. i then shot two bh and two ft and low and behold there was an improvement!!!! I then put in some weight tubes a buddy had lying around to see if that made a diffrence, the tubes weigh 2 grains per inch. with the weight added i saw even more improvement. at fifty yards i was putting two bh in a 1" to 2" group and the ft about the same, maybe slightly better, but now the bh and ft are about 4" apart. I then tried to crank the poundage back to the original setting and my groups seemed to stay the same. should i now try to move the rest slightly, or should i just be happy and sight in for broadhead use and compensate for the field tips when practicing?? I don't want to buy new anything and have tons of same arrows and bh from old set up which are exactly the same as the ones i am trying to tune.


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## Doc

Forget about "tiller tuning"...get it close and move on...proper tiller tuning takes considerable time and not worth the effort.
If you backed the poundage down and saw improvement, then it was due to 1 of 2 things.
1) You were overbowed
2) Your spine is not stiff enough
I wouldn't compensate...make small rest adjustments until your groups close at the lower poundage. Where are you BH hitting in relation to your FP...you said 4" apart, but your BH are 4" high, low, left or right?


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## Wrench81

Beautiful illustration, thanks!


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## MTELKHUNTER

well i think the problem is solved! don you were right about the gold tips possibly being under spined. i shot some carbon express (maximum?) 350 and shot two inch groups with ft and bh out to 50 yards. the thing that gets me is the carbon express has 100 grain tips and shoots perfect, put the 100 on gold tips and bh and ft wont group, put 125 on carbon express and not much better then the gt. i guess the 100 joined with the carbon express 350 is the magic number. Thanks for the pointers


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## Don Schultz

You are very welcome. I'd had trouble getting 55/75s to fly for me in the past so I'm not surprised. IMO either resight for bh, or learn what reduced poundage gets you the flight you want, and the judge how you feel about the KE at that draw weight.

Probably be fine either way.

Don



MTELKHUNTER said:


> well i think the problem is solved! don you were right about the gold tips possibly being under spined. ..........Thanks for the pointers


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## DAVID S.

Doc said:


> Final Shots


Here ya go. It works. Sticky at the top of this page.


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## k-2

Man.. I'm a believer.. I was shooting my 100gr field points for ever.. Put some 100gr NAP Bloodrunners on, and,,,, CRAP!!!!

1 foot low and 1 foot to the right at 50 yds...

Well, I just knew this was not going to correct my problem. BUT......

I ended up moving my WB rest about a half inch to the left and 1/4" up and the arrows are hittting eachother..

K-2


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## Doc

k-2 said:


> Man.. I'm a believer.. I was shooting my 100gr field points for ever.. Put some 100gr NAP Bloodrunners on, and,,,, CRAP!!!!
> 
> 1 foot low and 1 foot to the right at 50 yds...
> 
> Well, I just knew this was not going to correct my problem. BUT......
> 
> I ended up moving my WB rest about a half inch to the left and 1/4" up and the arrows are hittting eachother..
> 
> K-2


Great to hear:thumb: Now you're golden:archery:


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## fantarain

DOC: My initial position is like your second shot (bh on the left of fp). When I move rest to the left, both bh and fp move to the left and still about the same distance apart, but your fp moves up instead. I have no clue how to make it move up. I almost give it up... Any suggestion? Thanks!


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## NM_HighPlains

Stickies...always look for stickies!!! :tongue:

My BH's were grouping about 4" left and 2" low of my FP at 40 yards. Both were nice groups, but I wanted to see if this stuff works so I followed the instructions. I adjusted the rest to the right about 1 mark (Ripcord). Both groups moved but they were now together. Hmmmm....maybe there's something to this! Adjusted the rest up just a hair. Bang!!! Grouping together. Adjusted the sight to bring them into the center and here's the first test of THAT!!!

Note "missing" fletch on FP- I only shot 1 BH in this group!










Shot some more and not only were they grouping together, but both groups were grouping better. Wind was 10 mph, too. Realistic conditions. So, 2 small movements of the rest produced definite improvement all the way around. I only use 3 pins- 23, 35, 45 yards so 50's about all I'm good for.


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## Nova88

nice post doc thanks for taking the time. good stuff there


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## HillBilly_J44

I have last years drop tine whisker biscuit. I got it last january when i got my first bow. I was going to attempt to BH tune today, after reading this post. I got to looking at my WB, and i dont see a way to adjust the Elevation.
I started messin around with my BH's about a week ago (slick tricks, & magnus 4bld stingers) & both types of BH's (stinger's > slick tricks) are consistently shooting low & Right (vs field pnts).
I really dont want/can't afford to buy a new rest before bow season starts here.
Any info would be greatly appreciated!


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## IGluIt4U

HillBilly_J44 said:


> I have last years drop tine whisker biscuit. I got it last january when i got my first bow. I was going to attempt to BH tune today, after reading this post. I got to looking at my WB, and i dont see a way to adjust the Elevation.
> I started messin around with my BH's about a week ago (slick tricks, & magnus 4bld stingers) & both types of BH's (stinger's > slick tricks) are consistently shooting low & Right (vs field pnts).
> I really dont want/can't afford to buy a new rest before bow season starts here.
> Any info would be greatly appreciated!


Well, adjusting the nocking point in the opposite direction from how you'd adjust the elevation of the rest will have the same effect... 

i.e. - lowering the nocking point is effectively the same as raising the rest, or raising the nocking point will effectively act as if you lowered the rest... :darkbeer:


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## HillBilly_J44

IGluIt4U said:


> Well, adjusting the nocking point opposite of the way you'd adjust the elevation of the rest will have the same effect...


touche... I am fairly new to archery still, and i dunno, but adjusting the nock point seems more difficult, or has more room for error, than adjusting the rest. ???
i dont wanna completely screw everything up!!!


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## trailinone

Great thread. That has got to help me tomorrow. Thanks,
Chris


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## bnbplay

*tuning*

Great work on this post. Paper tuning is tried and true. I got my Tekan G5's flying smooth out to 40 yards so I'm happy.


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## oldpout

great info


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## Muddbuddy

*Room for rest movement?*

This is a great site, LOTS of great info. This is my 1st post so I hope I am not asking a stupid question. I have read this thread and totally understand what Doc has lined out here. My question is: I am going to tune my broadheads and before even starting, my rest (Trophy Ridge Dropzone) is already almost touching the roller guard arm on my DXT. What do I do if I need to move my rest up to gain the same POI with my field tips? My set-up is: Mathews DXT, 
29", 65#, Spot Hogg Real Deal, TR Dropzone, Easton Axis 400's (27 5/8") with 100 grain Montecs. 423 gr arrow weight. I have spin tested all arrows and they are all spinning good, all have a FOC between 10 and 11 %. Any input would be appreciated!


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## gbear

Muddbuddy said:


> This is a great site, LOTS of great info. This is my 1st post so I hope I am not asking a stupid question. I have read this thread and totally understand what Doc has lined out here. My question is: I am going to tune my broadheads and before even starting, my rest (Trophy Ridge Dropzone) is already almost touching the roller guard arm on my DXT. What do I do if I need to move my rest up to gain the same POI with my field tips? My set-up is: Mathews DXT,
> 29", 65#, Spot Hogg Real Deal, TR Dropzone, Easton Axis 400's (27 5/8") with 100 grain Montecs. 423 gr arrow weight. I have spin tested all arrows and they are all spinning good, all have a FOC between 10 and 11 %. Any input would be appreciated!


First off, welcome to AT.
To answer your question, you can move the d-loop/nock point up or down instead of the rest. You would want to move the nock point in the opposite direction that you would move the rest. I don't know anything about the DXT or the DZ so someone else will have to say if it is normal or not for the rest to be so close to the roller.
Since you didn't mention any previous tuning, I like this thread for a good place to start. www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=870318&highlight=walkback
I find this modified walkback tune quick and user friendly. 
Last 2 bows i set up with this method, only required a minor adjustment of the d-loop when i shot through paper, then no adjustment at all to get muzzys, snypers, slick tricks and fp's to hit the same poi.


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## lansmith79

Doc said:


> I received several PM's asking how close is close enough. This all depends on your shooting ability. If you normally shoot 3 inch groups with field points at 30 yards and can keep your broadhead in that 3 inches, then you are good-to-go. If you can only hold a 6 inch group, then your BH's should be in that 6 inch area. I like to get them this close though.


I sliced a fletching off the other day, much cheaper than a robin hood, in this economy, I can't afford too many arrows, good confidence booster though.


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## gbear

lansmith79 said:


> I sliced a fletching off the other day, much cheaper than a robin hood, in this economy, I can't afford too many arrows, good confidence booster though.


Be careful of the head taking a sliver out the side of a carbon shaft also. I did that once when not really paying attention and i inadvertently shot the BH after the FP. :sad: But it's all good, cause thanks to DOC we know how to do that now, yep:darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## lardy125

You, Sir, are an asset to bowhunters of all kinds. This is great info, unfortunately it means I've been tuning my bow wrong (adjusting the sight, not the rest) so I have a lot of work to do before the opener on Saturday. Many thanks!


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## dso970

*Help*

ok...no matter what i do my bh's are fours inches right . ive tried different shafts, different heads, maxed the rest left and right. the bow papertunes and walkback tunes perfect. so i moved my sight and i can hit anything im aiming at out to 36 yrds (furthest i can go). the bow walkbacked tuned perfectly with the bh's on, just four inches from the fp's. i was thinking i was torqueing the bow so i changed my grip...and four inches still. so, am i good to go, or am i screwed?


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## Doc

dso970 said:


> ok...no matter what i do my bh's are fours inches right . ive tried different shafts, different heads, maxed the rest left and right. the bow papertunes and walkback tunes perfect. so i moved my sight and i can hit anything im aiming at out to 36 yrds (furthest i can go). the bow walkbacked tuned perfectly with the bh's on, just four inches from the fp's. i was thinking i was torqueing the bow so i changed my grip...and four inches still. so, am i good to go, or am i screwed?


Did you try backing down the draw weight?
Also is it a single cam bow?


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## dso970

havent done that yet...i have a 07 bt guardian and a 08 xforce...both 4 inches right


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## Doc

dso970 said:


> havent done that yet...i have a 07 bt guardian and a 08 xforce...both 4 inches right


Try that and see if it's a spine issue. When you said you tried different shafts, did you mean different-spined shafts or just a couple different arrows that are the same spine?


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## fishcrazy

*Started with my broadheads?*

I'm shooting center but 6 inches low same weight FP and boadhead. Absolutley no rest/vane clearance issues. I think I will just adjust the six inches with the sights as the rest clearance is perfect. Repeats everytime at center but 6" low.


Opinions please?

Thanks Fishcrazy


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## fishcrazy

*What a great site!*

I asked a question and got 2 emails on sugestions right away. Ther solution was obvious after I thought about it. The only supid question on here is a question is needed but not asking for help. Great support team. Does anyone know anything about fixing wife problems.LOL

Fishcrazy


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## dso970

i dont think im under spined. both bows are 70#, and im shooting maxima 350s with a 29in draw...what do others think?


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## wood181

fishcrazy said:


> I asked a question and got 2 emails on sugestions right away. Ther solution was obvious after I thought about it. The only supid question on here is a question is needed but not asking for help. Great support team. Does anyone know anything about fixing wife problems.LOL
> 
> Fishcrazy


did you have to move the nock point?

I'm just curious what was suggested, I'd like to know!


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## Gunner7800

I think I'm special. I did this tuning exercise yesterday, man am I frustrated. 

I started by shooting a 3 arrow group of fp's at 20 yds, spot on. Then came 2 broadheads, 4" right, 4" up. Therefore I moved my rest about 1/8" left. FP's were 2" left, bh were 3" right and 4" up. Moved my rest another 1/8" left. FP's were 4" left, bh's were 2" right and 4" up.

Then after a while I got switched around where I was chasing my bh's with my field points, which actually started to work out better. This went on for about an hour, moving my rest chasing my fp's with my bh's or vise-versa. It finally got to the point where my fp's are 3" right and my bh's are 5" right, both 2" low. Now I will have to add a spacer to my sight to get it to move further right and I have to move my sight housing down a screw set to get it to go down more (Spot Hogg-Hogg-it Hunter). And of course I cannot move my rest any further to the right because it's hitting the riser (Trophy Taker Shakey Hunter).

It seems to me that no matter how I adjust my rest I can not get anything to match up.

Anybody have ANY suggestions?

Right now I'm thinking I need re-center my rest and just move my sight to match my bh's.


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## dmr

dso970 said:


> ok...no matter what i do my bh's are fours inches right . ive tried different shafts, different heads, maxed the rest left and right. the bow papertunes and walkback tunes perfect. so i moved my sight and i can hit anything im aiming at out to 36 yrds (furthest i can go). the bow walkbacked tuned perfectly with the bh's on, just four inches from the fp's. i was thinking i was torqueing the bow so i changed my grip...and four inches still. so, am i good to go, or am i screwed?


Fletching your arrows with helical vanes will help alot. I had the same problem as you when I straight fletched my arrows.


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## bigracklover

Gunner,

Try this, tune the bow with your fieldpoints using walkback/paper/bareshaft/etc., whatever you prefer. Then screw on your bh's. 

Don't be suprised if they're not right on. But if they are not but still within an inch of your fp's at 20 yds, then proceed to bh tuning by moving your rest in VERY SMALL increments. If the group gets bigger then move it the other way. 

If they're more than an inch or so off horizontally and vertically then it may be a spine issue, clearance issue or your shaft ends aren't square. 

Also, try different type of bh's and adjust your draw weight up or down and see if anything changes. In fact this could be done first, it could save you alot of time if it's something as simple as spine.


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## sidekick101

*Warning!!! Do not follow this tutorial*

WARNING!!! DO NOT FOLLOW THIS TUTORIAL….unless you want to have some critters blood on your hands; ). Haha. Just wanted to say thankyou for the broad head tuneing guid for dummies. I am new to the sport and could not get my bow to BH tune at all. After reading this tutorial and 15 shots my bow is grouping Muzzy MX4’s is 2” circles at 40 yards. The end results are so good I even wreaked and arrow: ( haha Thanx DOC


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## Gunner7800

bigracklover said:


> Gunner,
> 
> Try this, tune the bow with your fieldpoints using walkback/paper/bareshaft/etc., whatever you prefer. Then screw on your bh's.
> 
> Don't be suprised if they're not right on. But if they are not but still within an inch of your fp's at 20 yds, then proceed to bh tuning by moving your rest in VERY SMALL increments. If the group gets bigger then move it the other way.
> 
> If they're more than an inch or so off horizontally and vertically then it may be a spine issue, clearance issue or your shaft ends aren't square.
> 
> Also, try different type of bh's and adjust your draw weight up or down and see if anything changes. In fact this could be done first, it could save you alot of time if it's something as simple as spine.


Thanks BigR.
I think this weekend I'll be doing some more adjusting. I didn't have the time last weekend to try anything else. But I guess "straight out of the box" at 20yds, as compared to previous years, I have always had very good groups between fp's and bh's with little or no need to adjust anything. Except maybe a slight gang adjustment on my sight. There has never been a 4"-6" gap between the two using the same setup, and in fact some of the same arrows.


Like I said, I'll do some more tinkering this weekend.

Thanks.


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## dso970

ok...im done...after messing with all kinds of things for the last three weeks the best i can do is 2 inches right. pretty soon i will have a divorce. so i moved my sight and from 5-45 yards i hit everything im aiming at. where i hunt, if i shoot anything past 30 yrds itll end up in a tree. im confident and that means everything imo. what a relief finally.


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## B.Hunt

Nice work thanks!!!!!!


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## zeestyle

*Is this always possible???*

Is it ALWAYS possible, assuming you have the proper spine arrows and your BH's are straight, to make your fp's and bh's shoot the same?


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## ksarcher88

Having problems with my hoyt vulcan, and my fiances hoyt vtec. Both bows are shooting broadheads left of field points 3" at 20 yards. cannot close the gap by moving arrow rest either way. We have increased and decreased poundage, no effect, tried adjusting tiller and had no effect.

I had my vulcan shooting broadheads and field points together as far as horizontal goes, but when I stepped back to 30 I realized my rest had slipped down on riser, so broadheads were 4" low, and when I move the rest back up to get elevation right, my broadheads go left again. 

Dont know what I need to do here, Ive read through the broadhead tuning threads and tried things that worked for other people that were having problems. any suggestions on something for me to try? thanks


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## ksarcher88

also broadheads flight is good, slick tricks are grouping together. Im at 65# 28.5 " draw, 27.5" easton flatline 340's. the vtec is at 55# 27" draw, 26.5" easton epic 500's. both with 100 grain broadhead


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## Gunner7800

*I quit!!!*

I'm moving my rest back to center, adjusting my sights, and calling it good. Then I'm going to sight in again using my broadheads. I cannot get broadheads and field points to match up. Now it's to the point that my broaheads hit 4" right, when I move my rest left my fp's and bh's all move left. I have moved it so far that there is no more room for adjustment. Then I play with my draw weight, up and down. I have adjust one limb bolt and I have adjust both limb bolts. I pulled 3 arrows out of my extra dozen, cut them, run them through my A.S.D., put in the inserts and shot those arrows. No difference. According to TAP (The Archery Program) my spine and FOC are right where they need to be.

What I got:
2004 Mathews LX, 29", 63#(before adjustments), Gold Tip XT Hunters 5575 at 28", with 100gn Muzzy 3 blade.

I also just picked up a GT500, so I may try to get that setup before I head to the woods.


----------



## Doc

Gunner7800 said:


> I'm moving my rest back to center, adjusting my sights, and calling it good. Then I'm going to sight in again using my broadheads. I cannot get broadheads and field points to match up. Now it's to the point that my broaheads hit 4" right, when I move my rest left my fp's and bh's all move left. I have moved it so far that there is no more room for adjustment. Then I play with my draw weight, up and down. I have adjust one limb bolt and I have adjust both limb bolts. I pulled 3 arrows out of my extra dozen, cut them, run them through my A.S.D., put in the inserts and shot those arrows. No difference. According to TAP (The Archery Program) my spine and FOC are right where they need to be.
> 
> What I got:
> 2004 Mathews LX, 29", 63#(before adjustments), Gold Tip XT Hunters 5575 at 28", with 100gn Muzzy 3 blade.
> 
> I also just picked up a GT500, so I may try to get that setup before I head to the woods.


Did you adjust the idler wheel on your LX? This is a common culprit with single cam bows. You want the string to feed straight into the idler wheel (top wheel) upon release. Draw the bow and have somebody take a picture behind you. You'll need to twist either side yoke cable to adjust the string feed. A quick trick is to lay a field tipped shaft against the shelf side of the idler and the point should be directly in line with the string at the nocking point. If it's off to one side or the other, twist up the yoke cable on that side.
Yoke cable is the split part of the cable that has 2 end loops, which attach to either side of the top limb.


----------



## Gunner7800

Doc said:


> Did you adjust the idler wheel on your LX? This is a common culprit with single cam bows. You want the string to feed straight into the idler wheel (top wheel) upon release. Draw the bow and have somebody take a picture behind you. You'll need to twist either side yoke cable to adjust the string feed. A quick trick is to lay a field tipped shaft against the shelf side of the idler and the point should be directly in line with the string at the nocking point. If it's off to one side or the other, twist up the yoke cable on that side.
> Yoke cable is the split part of the cable that has 2 end loops, which attach to either side of the top limb.


AH HA!! Something else to try. I swear some day with all of the tuning tips I've been given, my bow will be the best shooting bow in the world....maybe. I remember being told something about this before, but was able to get my bow to shoot with no problem. But I guess after a string change, this could be the culprit, I'll give it a try.


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## bigracklover

Doc said:


> Did you *adjust the idler wheel *on your LX? This is a common culprit with single cam bows. You want the string to feed straight into the idler wheel (top wheel) upon release. Draw the bow and have somebody take a picture behind you. You'll need to twist either side yoke cable to adjust the string feed. A quick trick is to lay a field tipped shaft against the shelf side of the idler and the point should be directly in line with the string at the nocking point. If it's off to one side or the other, twist up the yoke cable on that side.
> Yoke cable is the split part of the cable that has 2 end loops, which attach to either side of the top limb.



That's what did the trick on my DXT last year


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## sb13

Awsome tip Doc but I have an issue. I shoot an alphamax 32 with carbon express 250 arrows at 60# draw weight. My fp are drilling the x out to 40 yards. I just shot a bh after reading this thread from 15 yards and I'm low about 3 inches and left about 4 or 5 inches. My rest can't be moved over to the right anymore or my fletching will hit the riser. I'm shooting 100 grain fp and 100 grain muzzy bh's. If I move the d loop or rest my arrow is going to be about level instead of being up some at the nock since I'm using a release. Maybe I missed a post that describes this same problem so sorry if you guys end up repeating yourselves but thank you for the reply in advance. BTW, I just joined the forum and this is my first post and I can already see that this seems to be a great place to learn.


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## leverjk

*Thanks!*

I purchased a pack of Muzzy's just to tune. Worked good. Noticed that I had elevation too high because BH never would go up. So I started from scratch and made very small changes and it worked much better. I'll never paper tune again!


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## HCA Iron Mace

I could not get them to tune together to save my life (bh vs FP) tried for two days and drove my head into the wall but I did not want to give up. Went back to the paper and had a small left tear (right handed) and was thinking that my arrow was to stiff but what the heck I moved the rest to the left and then I got a perfect tear 6 and 10ft. I went back to the bh and bam I got the bh and fp together. I shoot exp bh but I would have never know that I was a little out of tune if it was not for the Fixed blade. I want to give thanks for all the info on here and I learned what fixed blades will show you if you let them.


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## sb13

I shot my brothers gold tips today that are stiffer than my arrows just to see if I might be under splined but his hit exactly in the same places as mine with fp and bh's so I'm good as far as arrows go. I did end up with my fp and bh's about 2 inches from each other. After that I made no other adjustments and my groups got further apart but I was getting tired so I'll start fresh tomorrow. Adjustments made included side to side rest adjustments as well as the tension. The less tension I had the better the groups were. Although my bh's were hitting to the left the other adjustment that really helped was moving the rest to the left. I know you would assume it needed to go to the right. I did make an up adjustment with the rest as well and my arrow is now almost level from the nock point to the rest. I hope I can figure the rest out tomorrow becouse our season opens on Thursday and I'm so close that I don't want to stop now. Any tips or comments are welcome of course.


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## Gunner7800

Doc said:


> Did you adjust the idler wheel on your LX? This is a common culprit with single cam bows. You want the string to feed straight into the idler wheel (top wheel) upon release. Draw the bow and have somebody take a picture behind you. You'll need to twist either side yoke cable to adjust the string feed. A quick trick is to lay a field tipped shaft against the shelf side of the idler and the point should be directly in line with the string at the nocking point. If it's off to one side or the other, twist up the yoke cable on that side.
> Yoke cable is the split part of the cable that has 2 end loops, which attach to either side of the top limb.


So I checked my bow last night by laying an arrow against the shelf side of my idler wheel and found that the point of the arrow basically splits the string at my nock point. To me it seems like the arrow should be parallel to the string at the nock point?


----------



## bigracklover

Gunner7800 said:


> So I checked my bow last night by laying an arrow against the shelf side of my idler wheel and found that the point of the arrow basically splits the string at my nock point. To me it seems like the arrow should be parallel to the string at the nock point?


Nope, you gotta account for the roller guard. According to many Mathews guys (and what I do), you want the arrow or straight edge about an 1/8" away from the string (at the nocking point) then it'll track straight at full draw. Press the bow and put 2 twists in the non-shelf side of the yoke. That'll get you close. Recheck and adjust as necessary. 

Don't give up yet, I bet you'll be slappin' bh's and fp's in no time


----------



## Gunner7800

bigracklover said:


> Nope, you gotta account for the roller guard. According to many Mathews guys (and what I do), you want the arrow or straight edge about an 1/8" away from the string (at the nocking point) then it'll track straight at full draw. Press the bow and put 2 twists in the non-shelf side of the yoke. That'll get you close. Recheck and adjust as necessary.
> 
> Don't give up yet, I bet you'll be slappin' bh's and fp's in no time


I better be hitting something with my broadheads!:BangHead:

By putting a couple twists in the sight side of the yoke, wouldn't this make the arrow parrallel, or closer to parrallel, with the string if my arrow is splitting it from the shelf side?

While I'm looking down at the string as it runs through the wheel, the outside edge of the wheel is about 1/8" from the center of the string(maybe a little less).


----------



## Mr.Coon

*relief*

:vom:reading all of this reminds me why i switched to atoms two years ago:llama:


----------



## spotshooter300

*yip*



dmr said:


> Fletching your arrows with helical vanes will help alot. I had the same problem as you when I straight fletched my arrows.


YIP,I went with right helical 4 inch feathers,doesnt matter what broadhead weight or bow I shoot (omen or ultra tec) same arrows fly with field tips to 50 yds


----------



## bigracklover

Gunner7800 said:


> I better be hitting something with my broadheads!:BangHead:
> 
> By putting a couple twists in the sight side of the yoke, wouldn't this make the arrow parrallel, or closer to parrallel, with the string if my arrow is splitting it from the shelf side?
> 
> While I'm looking down at the string as it runs through the wheel, the outside edge of the wheel is about 1/8" from the center of the string(maybe a little less).



If you're holding the bow the shelf is on the left and the sight is on the right. If the straight edge laid against the left side of the IW crosses over the string at the nocking point then twist the right side of the yoke and vice versa. You don't want it parrallel, just an 1/8" off the string. It's hard to explain but easy to do.


----------



## Gunner7800

bigracklover said:


> If you're holding the bow the shelf is on the left and the sight is on the right. If the straight edge laid against the left side of the IW crosses over the string at the nocking point then twist the right side of the yoke and vice versa. You don't want it parrallel, just an 1/8" off the string. It's hard to explain but easy to do.


OK, so I put 1-1/2 twists in the sight side of my yoke to bring the end of my straight edge close to the 1/8" you're talking about. One thing bothers me, while holding my bow and looking at the IW from behind, the string from the roller gaurd to the IW, is at an eerie angle. It almost seems like the string does not meet the IW until it's passing through the limb fork(does that make sense, I'll try to remember to take a picture tonight). I'm a little afraid to shoot it because I don't want the string to come off of the wheel when I draw.


----------



## bigracklover

This thread has a picture in it that'll help you out. 

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/archer...ince-tuning-method-idler-lean-revision-43030/


----------



## Gunner7800

That's what I got. I'll take a pic tonight to show the angle of the string and IW. It looks like the string will slip right off if I draw.:mg:


----------



## HuntTN

great tips on tuning, thanks


----------



## tackscall

Right now I've got a scenario similar to post #4, however when I move the rest up the arrows seem to move up proportionately, they don't get closer together?


----------



## wood181

*Thanks!*

Thanks for putting this up!

I finally got a chance to spend some time BH tuning and now I have FP and BH grouping 3/4" at 20 yards.

Shot the field tip, pulled it from the target, then shot BH. 3/4" group on same spot. Time to practice longer shots with BHs!

THANKS!


----------



## USNAVY8251

*A must read*

Doc,
I've never done this before (new to bowhunting) and I can't say how easy it was to get my grouping to tighten up after following these instructions. My setup is not as sophisticated, but easily adaptable to what I have. 

My sight and rest had come use after practice and my arrow flight went to pot. Through these forums and your instructions I was able to get my rest back into position and readjust my sight. At 20 yards my grouping went from 6 inches hight and right, to 1 inch surrounding the X.

When sighting in for 30 and 40 yards do I only adjust the sighting pins?


----------



## Don Schultz

Thank you for your service. Yes, just set your pins.

It is great to hear of your success, taking a good shooting setup with properly matched components and squeezing the last bit of accuracy out of. Congrats!!! :tongue::thumbs_up



USNAVY8251 said:


> Doc,
> I've never done this before (new to bowhunting) and I can't say how easy it was to get my grouping to tighten up after following these instructions.... ...When sighting in for 30 and 40 yards do I only adjust the sighting pins?


----------



## KTurmel

got a little frustrated this didnt work for me all it did was dull my broadheads. then i checked my cams they were a little off timing, so im going to shoot again today and see what happens????


----------



## hotsyhog

If you shoot Slick Tricks or Sonics you should not have to worry about all this. They have always been dead on my field points on every bow i've seen....


----------



## socalhntr

can this be done with a whisker biscuit?


----------



## coachjdub

hotsyhog said:


> If you shoot Slick Tricks or Sonics you should not have to worry about all this. They have always been dead on my field points on every bow i've seen....


You ALWAYS need to tune to your broad heads. I shoot slick tricks and it did take me a little bit to get them tuned to my field points. It does not make a difference to what broad heads you use. ALWAYS spend some time and shoot and compare to field points and fine tune from there. ALWAYS:wink:


----------



## tackscall

tackscall said:


> Right now I've got a scenario similar to post #4, however when I move the rest up the arrows seem to move up proportionately, they don't get closer together?


At this point I sighted in the broadhead. I couldn't geet them to come together. My field tips hit 2 1/2 " above the broadhead


----------



## white.greg

OK Guys, I've had a revelation on Broadhead tuning!!! Or at least I think I have

I have seen this thread concerning BH tuning for some time and the advice it gives is the opposite of that of the Lawler's tuning guide that I have used for years. 

Example; If your BH"s are hitting to the right of your field points, this thread will advise you to chase the field tips, by moving your rest to the left. While Lawler's Guide will tell you to move your rest to the right. What's up with that????

(Now assuming you have the correct spline for your arrow length and draw weight.) 

The answer is in the rest you have and the speed of your bow. If you have a fall away rest and it falls away before your arrow's balance point (the point on the arrow you use to calculate Front of center FOC) passes by it, then use the guide here. If you have a fixed rest or one that falls slowly, so that the arrow balance point passes the rest before it falls, then use the Lawler's guide.

Now how in the heck is someone supposed to know the relationship between their arrow and the speed of their rest? 

Well you don't or can't, so....... 

My advice is that when you start your BH tuning process, carefully mark or write down the starting point of your rest. Pick the guide that you think matches your bow and if those rest movements don't seem to help, put your rest back to where you started and go the other way.

Other advice, not related to this world changing revelation, :wink: is to paper tune first. If you have a bullet hole on paper, then you know the amount of movement in your rest to complete the tune will be very small. If you have made several small moves and your up to like 1/8" total and it did not solve the problem, it's time to try the other way.


----------



## KTurmel

hotsyhog said:


> If you shoot Slick Tricks or Sonics you should not have to worry about all this. They have always been dead on my field points on every bow i've seen....



lol....please dont tell me this was for me..........try shooting them over 300 FPS then tell me


----------



## hdracer

white.greg said:


> OK Guys, I've had a revelation on Broadhead tuning!!! Or at least I think I have
> 
> I have seen this thread concerning BH tuning for some time and the advice it gives is the opposite of that of the Lawler's tuning guide that I have used for years.
> 
> Example; If your BH"s are hitting to the right of your field points, this thread will advise you to chase the field tips, by moving your rest to the left. While Lawler's Guide will tell you to move your rest to the right. What's up with that????
> 
> (Now assuming you have the correct spline for your arrow length and draw weight.)
> 
> The answer is in the rest you have and the speed of your bow. If you have a fall away rest and it falls away before your arrow's balance point (the point on the arrow you use to calculate Front of center FOC) passes by it, then use the guide here. If you have a fixed rest or one that falls slowly, so that the arrow balance point passes the rest before it falls, then use the Lawler's guide.
> 
> Now how in the heck is someone supposed to know the relationship between their arrow and the speed of their rest?
> 
> Well you don't or can't, so.......
> 
> My advice is that when you start your BH tuning process, carefully mark or write down the starting point of your rest. Pick the guide that you think matches your bow and if those rest movements don't seem to help, put your rest back to where you started and go the other way.
> 
> Other advice, not related to this world changing revelation, :wink: is to paper tune first. If you have a bullet hole on paper, then you know the amount of movement in your rest to complete the tune will be very small. If you have made several small moves and your up to like 1/8" total and it did not solve the problem, it's time to try the other way.


Thanks for the heads up. Been trying to get my bow back in tune after having some serving issues. I have a TT FC rest. BHs were hitting high left all the time. Per OT2 my arrows are not under/over spined. Had my rest moved completely to the right/down and they still hit high/left compared to the FPs. (No, I hadn't paper tuned the bow. I didn't have one until this morning.) Both the BHs and FPs grouped well separately. Reread Lawler's instructions, recentered my rest and started paper tuning. I had to move my rest to the left not the right. Got my left/right setup and adjusted my rest down (had to move my nock point up slightly) to get a near bullet hole. Moved back to 20 yds and made some slight rest/sight adjustments. Now both BHs and FPs hit together.

One note: You must adjust your drop way cable after moving your rest up or down. This really affects the rest timing, and it took me a little while to figure that out. :darkbeer:


----------



## Axtell3

*Great thread*

Thanks Doc,
for all the work and replys. It gave me some work, and confidence.
Silas


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## 31matthew

*a little confused*

I am going to broadhead tune today, but there is something that I dont understand. Why ,(in post #4) when you move the rest to the right to change the broadhead POI to the right, does the POI of the fieldpoint not move to the right?


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## Dscott14

Very informative. Good post!:thumbs_up


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## 31matthew

*dumb question*

Next time I'll read all of a thread before I ask a question.


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## white.greg

31matthew said:


> I am going to broadhead tune today, but there is something that I dont understand. Why ,(in post #4) when you move the rest to the right to change the broadhead POI to the right, does the POI of the fieldpoint not move to the right?


They both move, but your BH should move more than the FT and eventually they converge. 

Be sure to mark on your rest where you started, because if you keep moving your rest and they don't converge, then go back to where you started and move you rest the other way. I know it sounds crazy but read my other post on this page.


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## Axtell3

My answers ended up being fletching contact. I had switched to NAP quick spin 2inch, but with a 1 degree offset, they were hitting my hostage rest before they escaped it.
Switched back to 4 inch plain vanes and I'm nailing it again. Whew, not what to do during season!


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## Wally6886

*Question*

If my sight has a windage adjustment, would I be able to just move my sight head left or right instead of moving my rest left or right to compensate for left/right misses? 

And if I'm shooting a fall away, would moving the rest interfere with the rest string timing depending on how long the rest string is served in and would I have to adjust this?


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## messickzr

So if I am underspined, will broadheads tend to drift left or right? I have been having a tough time getting broadheads to hit with field points this year and am wondering if I am underspined. I shoot right handed. Setup:

Hoyt Vectrix 
59# draw
27.5" arrows
Axis XT400 arrows
125 grain Muzzys

Thanks

Matt


----------



## white.greg

messickzr said:


> So if I am underspined, will broadheads tend to drift left or right? I have been having a tough time getting broadheads to hit with field points this year and am wondering if I am underspined. I shoot right handed. Setup:
> 
> Hoyt Vectrix
> 59# draw
> 27.5" arrows
> Axis XT400 arrows
> 125 grain Muzzys
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matt


Under spined arrows will hit to the right of your field tips. This assumes that you have paper tuned your arrows to a bullet hole and tried moving your rest both to the left and to the right just a little bit and it did not help. 

Sorry, I don't know your bow's cam type, is it a single cam bow? If it is you can try twisting the left cable on the yoke, 1 1/2 turn at a time to see if that brings it back.


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## jetich

I just don't understand why moving the rest when you're paper tuned is the right solution. This will mess the centershot up significantly so how is it a viable fix to the problem? If I'm shooting bullet holes, why should I touch either the rest or the knock point? Seems like it would be a cable/string tuning issue at this point.

BTW, I get fields shooting X's all day but BH hit center-left.


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## gbear

jetich said:


> I just don't understand why moving the rest when you're paper tuned is the right solution. This will mess the centershot up significantly so how is it a viable fix to the problem? If I'm shooting bullet holes, why should I touch either the rest or the knock point? Seems like it would be a cable/string tuning issue at this point.
> 
> BTW, I get fields shooting X's all day but BH hit center-left.


Last 2 bows i set up, when i got them with perfect bullet holes in the paper , i didn't have to do anything to make the BHs hit same as FP. I shot muzzys, slick tricks and snypers, none had a different POI. I'm also using a limbdriver.
Also set one up with a whisker biscuit, buddies bow, even though it had perfect bullet holes i still had to adjust the rest to make BH group with FP. 

Lots of things affect the way your BH flies.
arrow spine
BH alignment,spin test
straight vs. helical fletch
type of fletch
slightest amount of fletch contact
grip torque
release torque

somebody fill in what i forgot.
Bottom line is you have to do the investigation and elimante the suspects.


----------



## white.greg

jetich said:


> I just don't understand why moving the rest when you're paper tuned is the right solution. This will mess the centershot up significantly so how is it a viable fix to the problem? If I'm shooting bullet holes, why should I touch either the rest or the knock point? Seems like it would be a cable/string tuning issue at this point.
> 
> BTW, I get fields shooting X's all day but BH hit center-left.


It's actually pretty easy to understand. At paper tuning distances, your arrow is still flexing a lot and the hole it makes in the paper is just a snapshot in time of where it is while oscillating. Paper tuning is just the beginning of the tuning process, it gets you close and then you move to walk-back tuning and finally broadhead tuning.

The fact that you shoot X's doesn't mean much as compared to BH's. Field tipped arrows steer all from the vanes and stabilize very quickly. Broadhead tipped arrows steer from the front and back, if they start out a little off, they take longer to stabilize, in the time it takes them to stabilize, they moved off target. Make sense?

If you currently can shoot at 20yds and 60yds (or 15 and 40)and there is no left or right drift of your field tips, then your ready to broadhead tune. When this thread says to move your rest one way or another, it means very small amounts. You should attach a small piece of tape to your current rest setting so that when you do move it, you can see precisely how far and be able to put it back where you started in case that move direction is wrong and you need to go the other way.

Hope that helps.


----------



## white.greg

Wally6886 said:


> If my sight has a windage adjustment, would I be able to just move my sight head left or right instead of moving my rest left or right to compensate for left/right misses?
> 
> And if I'm shooting a fall away, would moving the rest interfere with the rest string timing depending on how long the rest string is served in and would I have to adjust this?


You could move your sight, but that is a bandaid to the problem, it does not solve the fact that your bow is out of tune or your form is poor. You can have a perfectly tuned bow and poor bow grip and your broadheads will not group with your fieldtips. 

Assuming your making quality shots you need to move your rest to solve the problem. 

Yes, if you end up moving your rest up or down significantly, it will (may) effect your rest timing. But if your shooting bullet holes in paper now, the amount you will be moving your rest for BH tuning is so small, it should not effect the timing.


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## jdcamo

Ok I need some help. Im pulling my hair out. I am shooting a Bowtech Commander 08 at 27 inch. 70 lbs. Using a limbdriver dropaway rest. Carbontech Rhino arrows 45/70(.400 spine) and 55/80 (.300) cut to 27 inch with a 125 grained point. Fletched with 4 blazers vanes at 90 degrees. I am shooting Magnus snuffer ss and stinger broadheads. D loop and release.

I recently got this bow. I walk back tuned with field points. I then screwed on a broadhead and found that it hit to the right of the field points. This indicates a weak spine so i tried th stiffer spined 55/80 rhino arrows. Same result. SO then I went to moving my rest to the left. The bh's continue to hit to the right of my fp about 1.5-2 inches. No matter where I move the rest right or left the broadheads hit left. 

I am not getting vane contact as I lipstick tested. 
My limbdriver is set up to the best of my knowledge. The arrow does not bounce when my arrow comes up.

I have shot Carbontech arrows and magnus heads with many bowtech bows of the years, and have never had a problem getting them to tune.

I have been shooting a bareshaft with fletched arrows. I got the bareshaft to hit pretty close with the fps. But the tail kicks to the left /. Moving the rest doesnt seem to get rid of this left kick /. This also explains why the broadheads hit right of the fs too.

Do you think it might be the rest?
I dont think spine is an issue as I have tried a few different spines with no change.

Anyone have an idea of what I can do. I am going hunting in a week and have been trying to figure this out for weeks.


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## J.trevor123

okay i really dont get it. When i tune my broadheads and i move my rests, my fieldpoints POI changes also?? What am i doing wrong. i dont understand how you change the rest and it only moves the BH POI. Also, howcome every arrow i shoot with my BH shoots a little different??


----------



## white.greg

jdcamo said:


> Ok I need some help. Im pulling my hair out. I am shooting a Bowtech Commander 08 at 27 inch. 70 lbs. Using a limbdriver dropaway rest. Carbontech Rhino arrows 45/70(.400 spine) and 55/80 (.300) cut to 27 inch with a 125 grained point. Fletched with 4 blazers vanes at 90 degrees. I am shooting Magnus snuffer ss and stinger broadheads. D loop and release.
> 
> I recently got this bow. I walk back tuned with field points. I then screwed on a broadhead and found that it hit to the right of the field points. This indicates a weak spine so i tried th stiffer spined 55/80 rhino arrows. Same result. SO then I went to moving my rest to the left. The bh's continue to hit to the right of my fp about 1.5-2 inches. No matter where I move the rest right or left the broadheads hit left.
> 
> I am not getting vane contact as I lipstick tested.
> My limbdriver is set up to the best of my knowledge. The arrow does not bounce when my arrow comes up.
> 
> I have shot Carbontech arrows and magnus heads with many bowtech bows of the years, and have never had a problem getting them to tune.
> 
> I have been shooting a bareshaft with fletched arrows. I got the bareshaft to hit pretty close with the fps. But the tail kicks to the left /. Moving the rest doesnt seem to get rid of this left kick /. This also explains why the broadheads hit right of the fs too.
> 
> Do you think it might be the rest?
> I dont think spine is an issue as I have tried a few different spines with no change.
> 
> Anyone have an idea of what I can do. I am going hunting in a week and have been trying to figure this out for weeks.


Yes it's the rest or it's your grip, might have some torque in your grip.
The OP of this thread has you "chas the field points" that means move your rest in the direction of the fielrpoints. But just as often you need to move the rest in the opposite direction. You will be moving the rest Very small amounts.


----------



## white.greg

J.trevor123 said:


> okay i really dont get it. When i tune my broadheads and i move my rests, my fieldpoints POI changes also?? What am i doing wrong. i dont understand how you change the rest and it only moves the BH POI. Also, howcome every arrow i shoot with my BH shoots a little different??


Field tip arrows steer only from the rear (the vanes), but broadheads steer from both the front and rear, front because of the BH blades. So if your rest is very slightly off, the broadhead arrow will be effected much more. Or if you torque your grip, the BH arrow will be effected much more.

So to answer your question, when you move your rest both the FT's and BH's will change POI, but the BH' will move much further and when your rest is right, the two will converge.

BH tuning is as much about tuning yourself as the bow, because any torque you put into the system will effect BH's much more than FT's. I know you have read on AT so many people blab that their BH's fly exactly like FT's, well most are just blabbing, makes them feel good or something, becasue the fact is that unless they go through a lot of tuning and practice their full of it, don't care what (fixed blade) BH they are talking about.


----------



## J.trevor123

ohh thanks gregg, that explanation makes alot of sense. But i have one question. I can shoot the same broadheads (slick tricks) with the same arrows and hit in the same location. Some hit 3 inches right, some a few inches high etc. And they shoot that way consistently. its like the arrows are causing them to fly different. i fletched the arrows myself with a bitze. And i did then the same, i guess the only difference would be i didnt line up all the inserts so the BHs line up the same with the fletchings... but who does that?? ..


----------



## white.greg

J.trevor123 said:


> ohh thanks gregg, that explanation makes alot of sense. But i have one question. I can shoot the same broadheads (slick tricks) with the same arrows and hit in the same location. Some hit 3 inches right, some a few inches high etc. And they shoot that way consistently. its like the arrows are causing them to fly different. i fletched the arrows myself with a bitze. And i did then the same, i guess the only difference would be i didnt line up all the inserts so the BHs line up the same with the fletchings... but who does that?? ..


Some people claim that lineing up vanes with blades makes a difference, maybe it does, but I'll bet the difference you are seeing is your form introducing torque into the system and that is moving your POI. 

I don't know your shooting experience or skill, but that would be my guess. If you know that your form is very good, then I don't know what to tell you, but if your like 90% of the Archers here or anywhere, your (our, myself included) form could use some work. This is the best place online that I have found to help out.

http://www.performance-archery.tv/?q=node/14

I'm placing you on the grip lesson because i think it is the most important, but please take the time to watch many of the videos here.

Hope this helps


----------



## hoytarchery88

that looks great, but what did u do in between shots that moved where the broadheads hit and the field tips stay the same


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## idlewildranch

*tuning fp/bh*

i was wondering if after i have my 20 yrd pin grouping both fp and bh correctly,do i have to do the same for the 30,40,50,60 yrd pins? or after the 20 yrd is good,will the 30,40 etc be good as well, please any help would be great.


----------



## gbear

idlewildranch said:


> i was wondering if after i have my 20 yrd pin grouping both fp and bh correctly,do i have to do the same for the 30,40,50,60 yrd pins? or after the 20 yrd is good,will the 30,40 etc be good as well, please any help would be great.


you should check your BH out to the maximum distance you plan to shoot at game
I find that I don't usually have to do anything when it is set for 25 yds, but i always check.


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## Wally6886

Greg -

Thanks for answering my question, that helps me out.


----------



## Cannonball08

I wish I had this information while growing up as a kid. 

I switched to mechanicals over eight years ago due to BH flight issues and didn't think I would ever change back to fixed until the rage heads put the ro ro to me, and trust me on this. I was a huge rage fan after shooting my black bear with them, but other things that I am not going to air out over the internet. 

I have used this method two years in a row. Last year with my SBXT and this year with the captain. I tuned the slick tricks at thirty yards and they are dangerously accurate!


----------



## armedic1

I'm really confused about this... I tried this method when my FP's hit higher than my BH's and the higher that I moved the rest the higher the FP's hit so I gave up and took it to a local shop... The local pro tuned my rest and told me not move it and to sight it in and adjust the sight for the BH's and after the season I can resight it for FP's... Any opinions about this? BTW I recently put a Rest-Rocket on my rest and now the BH's are hitting higher than the FP's from about 30yds and beyond... Any opinions or suggestions???


----------



## gbear

armedic1 said:


> I'm really confused about this... I tried this method when my FP's hit higher than my BH's and the higher that I moved the rest the higher the FP's hit so I gave up and took it to a local shop... The local pro tuned my rest and told me not move it and to sight it in and adjust the sight for the BH's and after the season I can resight it for FP's... Any opinions about this? BTW I recently put a Rest-Rocket on my rest and now the BH's are hitting higher than the FP's from about 30yds and beyond... Any opinions or suggestions???


what is a rest rocket?

did you try moving the rest in the opposite direction, i.e. chase the BH instead of the FP?


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## armedic1

gbear said:


> what is a rest rocket?
> 
> did you try moving the rest in the opposite direction, i.e. chase the BH instead of the FP?


Rest-Rocket is a delay that's made by Starflight to fit on drop aways... I found it on AT. No, I didnt try to chase the BH. Should I have?


----------



## outback2hunt

Perhaps this was covered in one of the other 14 pages, if so I apologize. Rather than broadhead tune to get field tips and broadheads hitting the same point, wouldnt the best broadhead tune be accomplished by walkback tuning with broadheads rather than field points?


----------



## gbear

armedic1 said:


> Rest-Rocket is a delay that's made by Starflight to fit on drop aways... I found it on AT. No, I didnt try to chase the BH. Should I have?


I looked at your original post again. When you say your FP moved higher as you moved the rest up, does that mean the POI of the FP and BH got farther apart? or did the BH get closer to the FP as the rest was moved? The idea is that the FP will move but eventually the BH will merge and when the 2 merge, then you set your sights. 
Remember to scribe windage and elevation marks on your rest before you start, so that you can always go back to the exact place that you started if need be.
If your not familiar with tuning your own bow, since you took it to the shop, try this link--post #7 and #15
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=870318&highlight=walkback
I like this method--I've set up 2 bows this summer with it then paper tuned and when i put the BH on there was no adjustment necessary all the way to 70yds shooting 3 different BHs. 

There were some posts somewhere in this 14 pages that some ATers ended up chasing the BH with the FP and that did the trick.
It's worth sitting down with a cup of coffee and a note book and going through this entire thread.


----------



## armedic1

It's so crazy, I got the BH's to hit with the FP's for elevation but the FP's consistently hit at least 6 inches to the left from the BH's, no matter how far I moved the rest... I even added a spacer, same thing... I'm done with this. I'm gonna reset the center shot and sight in for BH's and hunt till the end of this season, then maybe try this again.


----------



## gbear

armedic1 said:


> It's so crazy, I got the BH's to hit with the FP's for elevation but the FP's consistently hit at least 6 inches to the left from the BH's, no matter how far I moved the rest... I even added a spacer, same thing... I'm done with this. I'm gonna reset the center shot and sight in for BH's and hunt till the end of this season, then maybe try this again.


what arrows? length? draw length? draw weight?


----------



## white.greg

armedic1 said:


> It's so crazy, I got the BH's to hit with the FP's for elevation but the FP's consistently hit at least 6 inches to the left from the BH's, no matter how far I moved the rest... I even added a spacer, same thing... I'm done with this. I'm gonna reset the center shot and sight in for BH's and hunt till the end of this season, then maybe try this again.


If you follow the directions in this thread and you can't get you BH's to match with your field tips, you need to try moving your rest the opposite direction, yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but it's not. Read my post #497 on page 13, it will explain your problem. If you go through the steps and you are still off that much, it is either your arrow spline or your shooting form. So go back and start over, paper tune, then back-up tune, then broadhead tune.


----------



## armedic1

gbear said:


> what arrows? length? draw length? draw weight?


27.5 inch Beman 400's. I'm shootin an AM32 with 29" draw length and it's pullin 68.5lbs. The heads are 100gr.


----------



## gbear

armedic1 said:


> 27.5 inch Beman 400's. I'm shootin an AM32 with 29" draw length and it's pullin 68.5lbs. The heads are 100gr.


I think with your setup you are underspined, probably the cause of your frustration. You should have .340 spine arrow. Quickest way to find out is to back your DW to 60#, .400 spine should be right for that DW and 28" arrow (round UP)

If it's not the spine then it could be bow torque. Torque can be the bow hand or release hand. I had a torque problem in the summer with a new bow, i switched from a T-handle to a wrist strap and no torque. But i think you are underspined. Also have you checked for fletch contact?
Forgot to ask before what BH you are tuning with?


----------



## armedic1

I was getting fletching contact and rotated the nock so that helped. Also I went and purchased some stiffer spined arrows. I'm hopin that helps. I'm using Montecs 100gr.


----------



## meatmissile

Ttt


----------



## wyetterp

Seems like a good time to bump this back ttt. Great thread. 

Peterson's writer's could really use this lesson. 

Hey Doc...I'd rather see your opinions in some of these mags then a lot that I've been reading, Maybe you should start spreading your resume around.


----------



## Doc

wyetterp said:


> Seems like a good time to bump this back ttt. Great thread.
> 
> Peterson's writer's could really use this lesson.
> 
> Hey Doc...I'd rather see your opinions in some of these mags then a lot that I've been reading, Maybe you should start spreading your resume around.


:lol: I know what you mean on some of those articles:nod: I have published quite a few articles....just none about bowhunting...guess I need to get my priorities straight:wink:


----------



## Top Gauge

After fiddling with this some last night I went back to the beginning and set center shot. I then shot my first 2 arrows at only 20 yards, I then had to make a small adjustment to my rest. and nearly split my arrow with my broad head. I moved back to 30 yards and was able to wrap my thumb and middle finger around a 9 shot group.

Thanks for the help. Tonight I set 40 and 50 yards.


----------



## Doc

Top Gauge said:


> After fiddling with this some last night I went back to the beginning and set center shot. I then shot my first 2 arrows at only 20 yards, I then had to make a small adjustment to my rest. and nearly split my arrow with my broad head. I moved back to 30 yards and was able to wrap my thumb and middle finger around a 9 shot group.
> 
> Thanks for the help. Tonight I set 40 and 50 yards.


Atta Boy...chalk up another success story for the skeptics:thumb::archery:


----------



## SCFox

Turkey season is coming. TTT


SCFox


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## Doc

Bump for trophyhill


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## ILBowhunter22

just had to bookmark this since they unstickied it


----------



## trophyhill

thanks Doc. i'll let ya know how it goes Sunday when i have some time to do this. looks very simple and easy to understand.

for those reading this, i PM'ed Doc from Sneaky Appasums reccomendation for this thread. my fixxed heads are flying low from 1-3" and left 3-5" of my fp's depending on which head being shot with each head staying consistant with each other. i've shot Muzzy mx4's, Magnus Buzzcuts and SlickTrick magnums. each head is staying consistant but not hitting with fp's.


----------



## KTurmel

trophyhill said:


> thanks Doc. i'll let ya know how it goes Sunday when i have some time to do this. looks very simple and easy to understand.
> 
> for those reading this, i PM'ed Doc from Sneaky Appasums reccomendation for this thread. my fixxed heads are flying low from 1-3" and left 3-5" of my fp's depending on which head being shot with each head staying consistant with each other. i've shot Muzzy mx4's, Magnus Buzzcuts and SlickTrick magnums. each head is staying consistant but not hitting with fp's.


dude i wouldent try this if i were you, it really doesnt work. save your broadheads!


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## buckarcher

needed to subscribe, lots of good info.


----------



## trophyhill

Doc said:


> Bump for trophyhill


K Doc. made an adjustment with my anchor point. after lowering my anchor point i had to raise my peep. it was pointed out that my wrist sling was too tight, possibly causing some torque, so i loosened it (a bunch) shot bullet holes thru paper. then i re sited in at 20, 30 and 40 yards with field points which was just a matter of moving the pins up slightly because i was hitting about 4-6" high. 

then the true test. i screwed on a muzzy mx4 and picked a spot on the 3d target at 20 yards. (tough to hold still because of the wind but) my elevation was right on with my field points and i was only an inch or 2 from where my fp's were hitting. some left and some right (darn wind). i am gonna do it again on a calm day and see what happens. 

if i'm only an inch or 2 one way or another would you recommend just a slight site adjustment or a slight rest/site adjustment for final tune? i guess there truly is something to be said about a properly tuned bow and a good anchor point. now i'm really pumped because i was really frustrated the last time i tried shooting fixxed heads and being off an inch or 2 low and 3-5" left.


----------



## 123 4/8 P&Y

trophyhill said:


> K Doc. made an adjustment with my anchor point. after lowering my anchor point i had to raise my peep. it was pointed out that my wrist sling was too tight, possibly causing some torque, so i loosened it (a bunch) shot bullet holes thru paper. then i re sited in at 20, 30 and 40 yards with field points which was just a matter of moving the pins up slightly because i was hitting about 4-6" high.
> 
> then the true test. i screwed on a muzzy mx4 and picked a spot on the 3d target at 20 yards. (tough to hold still because of the wind but) my elevation was right on with my field points and i was only an inch or 2 from where my fp's were hitting. some left and some right (darn wind). i am gonna do it again on a calm day and see what happens.
> 
> if i'm only an inch or 2 one way or another would you recommend just a slight site adjustment or a slight rest/site adjustment for final tune? i guess there truly is something to be said about a properly tuned bow and a good anchor point. now i'm really pumped because i was really frustrated the last time i tried shooting fixxed heads and being off an inch or 2 low and 3-5" left.


Man I'm itchin to give my bow a good tuning. I've had those same frustrations with fixed blade heads, but I've been trying to learn a few things on here that will hopefully help me get 'em to shoot straight. I can't hardly wait to end my dependence on mechanicals. I think I'm most looking forward to feeling confident that my head will penetrate deep and not break apart. I'm also excited about killing something through the blind netting. I hope it's an unseasonably cool summer because I'm going to shoot A LOT OF ARROWS before September.


----------



## trophyhill

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Man I'm itchin to give my bow a good tuning. I've had those same frustrations with fixed blade heads, but I've been trying to learn a few things on here that will hopefully help me get 'em to shoot straight. I can't hardly wait to end my dependence on mechanicals. I think I'm most looking forward to feeling confident that my head will penetrate deep and not break apart. I'm also excited about killing something through the blind netting. I hope it's an unseasonably cool summer because I'm going to shoot A LOT OF ARROWS before September.


i am so stoked right now and happy my tuning issue has been put to rest. i stepped out back a while ago and took 1 shot at 40 yards with a fixxed broadhead and 1 shot at 50 yards and hit the mark...with a muzzy mx4.

i took my other bow in after work today and repeated the same process and sited it back in to 40 yards too. i will shoot some fixxed heads out of it tomorrow.. good luck all


----------



## gbear

is it that time of year again?:darkbeer:


----------



## SCFox

Bump



SCFox


----------



## RxBowhunter

Time to Sticky this again for the season


----------



## PETA PENETRATOR

*Bow tuning*

Hi,

Are their any good books to get into bow tuning and maintenance? Or websites?

Thanks


----------



## IGluIt4U

PETA PENETRATOR said:


> Hi,
> 
> Are their any good books to get into bow tuning and maintenance? Or websites?
> 
> Thanks


You can find a lot of useful information right here... 

General Archery Information


----------



## PETA PENETRATOR

Thank you for the quick response!


----------



## pbuck

Going to add my own little tid bit of info that might help someone....

Was shooting my Maxxis trying to tune my 100gr. Muzzy MX3's and just couldn't get the BH's any closer than a couple inches to my FP's. BH's were always just a bit high and right. As I was shooting I noticed my loop was worn so I decided to replace it. When I did, instead of the one tied in nock set below the arrow nock and loop like I was using, I went with the tied in nock set above and below as shown in this thread......http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/196301-how-tie-nocksets-d-loop.html

When I went out to shoot again, my BH's and my FP's were hitting together!!!  

Obviously, I was getting some nock pinch and that threw my BH arrows off a little. Sooooo, It's just something you may try if you can't get your bow to have same POI.


----------



## IDArcher

I'm having the same problem as a few other guys. No matter what I do my broadheads hit 3" to the right of my fieldpoints at 20 yards. I've checked the arrow spine through "archers advantage" and "shaft selector xpert." I spun all of my arrows and eliminated one this way. I weighed each one, and am only using the arrows that are exactly the same. I also used lipstick on the vanes to make sure there is no contact.

I got so frustrated with it that I moved my rest as far to the left as possible and my broadhead hit 3" to the right of my fieldpoints. I then moved my rest as far to the right as I could and the broadhead hit 3" to the right of my fieldpoints. No matter what I do I can't bring them together.

Does anyone have any advice for me? I'm shooting 26.75" Easton Super Slim 400's with Blazer Vanes, a 5" Battle Drum wrap, and 100 hellrazors. My total arrow weight is 403 gn. My bow is a 28" Drenalin set to 68 lbs.


----------



## Cannonball08

This may sound funny, but try moving your rest up or down to fix your horizontal problem. Worth a shot and it worked for me!


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## IDArcher

I'll try that. I might even drop my weight down a pound or two to stiffen my spine and see if that works. It may make my arrows too stiff though.


----------



## gbear

IDArcher said:


> I'll try that. I might even drop my weight down a pound or two to stiffen my spine and see if that works. It may make my arrows too stiff though.


I don't think you're going to make those arrows too stiff. I shoot .300 and .340 spine at 70#.


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## HammerBuilt

Nice pics man!


----------



## bobbie

*ttt*

Nice post,you couldnt have made it any easier for the people that are haveing trouble ,or are just starting out.
Great Job:wink:


----------



## mt hunter22

cajunhunter said:


> I have been so confused trying to BH tune my Hellrazors, that I finally moved the rest the other direction. This got me there. I then reread your setup and you are a lefty. It all makes since now. Hellrazors are tuned now.


so what does this change.do i move my rest a different direction if im hitting left. thanks


----------



## mt hunter22

mt hunter22 said:


> so what does this change.do i move my rest a different direction if im hitting left. thanks


okay so now im really confused the easton tuning guide says that for a right handed shooter,if you are hitting left,move the rest in towards the bow.so my question is .which way do i move the rest if broadheads are hitting to the left and im a right handed shooter? also i am shooting a sr-71 at 29/70 with a maxima hunter 350 with 100 gr points blazer vanes. anyone think i will have spine issues?thanks


----------



## kentwood1

Bow is shooting bullet holes through paper after having idler lean fixed. T3 broadheads hitting with field tips. Grim Reapers are not. Tried broadhead with different arrows, one may fly better than the other. Shot them with lighted nock and nock end of arrow seems to be swing out left before impact. The T3's are very compact compared to the Reapers. I'm pretty sure I am spines correctly. Shooting a 29" GT 7595 through my Switchback XT @67 lbs, 100 gr head. What should I do?


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## FULLATTACK

guys i need your advise. my broadheads are shooting perfect right and left of my fp but they are hitting low. 0 in low at 20, 1 in low at 30, 3 in at 40, 6 in at 50, etc. (fp and broadheads are 100g)

i have talk to some of my buddies and people at the archery shop and they said that i might need a HEAVIER broadhead to help hit higher. 

what do you guys think? should i mess with my rest? change the grain of my broadhead? or somethin completely diff?


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## kzz1king

Raise your rest 1/16 at a time and then less to bring them together. You will have to adjust pins when done. Shot at furthest distance you are comfortable with and make sure it is fairly calm when you are tuning.


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## kzz1king

I have had very good luck broadhead tuning. I have been messing with my Ally trying to fine tune. I had to move the rest to the right to bring the broadheads in. I had them shooting right together at 60 yards. He is where it gets interesting. At 40 yards they were together but I could see the tail of the arrow kicking out. Tonight I marked the rest so I could return if needed and then moved the rest way to the left. I shot some BH and Fp and they were right together!! Arrows are not kicking out any more either. Moral of story, dont be afraid to try something different and be patient. In my opinion long range BH tuning needs to be done over several shooting periods. I will keep records and tweak for weeks. A well tuned bow builds confidence.


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## FULLATTACK

kzz1king said:


> Raise your rest 1/16 at a time and then less to bring them together. You will have to adjust pins when done. Shot at furthest distance you are comfortable with and make sure it is fairly calm when you are tuning.


thanks man. i have been considering this for a long time because i hate the fact that i need to move my rest around. however, i finally did it and it worked great. my fp and bh are flying the exact same out to 80 yards.


----------



## ohiobeagler

I've walked back tuned, paper tuned, and checked arrow spine. My fixed BH are left of field points, but I plan to shoot mechanicals and they are dead on with my field points. Should I still tune my fixed heads even though I do not plan on using them?


----------



## cordini

ohiobeagler said:


> I've walked back tuned, paper tuned, and checked arrow spine. My fixed BH are left of field points, but I plan to shoot mechanicals and they are dead on with my field points. Should I still tune my fixed heads even though I do not plan on using them?


Don't tune it with something you're not going to use....That defeats the whole purpose. If your FP's & Mechanicals are spot on to your maximum distance, then you are good to go....Only do this if you decide to switch back to your fixed BH's.


----------



## cordini

mt hunter22 said:


> okay so now im really confused the easton tuning guide says that for a right handed shooter,if you are hitting left,move the rest in towards the bow.so my question is .which way do i move the rest if broadheads are hitting to the left and im a right handed shooter? also i am shooting a sr-71 at 29/70 with a maxima hunter 350 with 100 gr points blazer vanes. anyone think i will have spine issues?thanks


How did these arrows paper tune for you? That should be your first test to see if you are over/under spined....I'm shooting ACC 3-49's out of my SR @ 65/27.5....I just tested them out with BH's and according to Easton's guide my arrows are weak. These arrows were fine when I paper tuned & shot FP's out to 80 yards. My BH's were low & right, indicating I need to lower nock height & get either lighter BH's or a stiffer spined arrow. I have a bunch of ACC 3-60's that I'm going to test today, but I plan on moving my nock down a little first and shoot both arrows with FP's & BH's. Anyway, to answer your question about moving the rest....You go the opposite way from where your BH's are impacting.....Hitting left, move the rest to the right....Hitting low, move the rest up, etc. Just like it shows at the beginning of this sticky....


----------



## buckarcher

cordini said:


> Don't tune it with something you're not going to use....That defeats the whole purpose. If your FP's & Mechanicals are spot on to your maximum distance, then you are good to go....Only do this if you decide to switch back to your fixed BH's.


Yes you should. The purpose of broadhead tuning is to tune your bow to its maximum performance, not to make switching from field points to BH's easier on you. If you broadhead tune your bow (some call it fine or super tuning) then anything you shoot should have the same POI. I know people that broadhead tune their target bows.


----------



## Cajun83

cordini said:


> Don't tune it with something you're not going to use....That defeats the whole purpose. If your FP's & Mechanicals are spot on to your maximum distance, then you are good to go....Only do this if you decide to switch back to your fixed BH's.


I would tune the fixed blades myself. This will ensure that you get maximum efficiency out of the bow.


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## buckarcher

mt hunter22 said:


> okay so now im really confused the easton tuning guide says that for a right handed shooter,if you are hitting left,move the rest in towards the bow.so my question is .which way do i move the rest if broadheads are hitting to the left and im a right handed shooter? also i am shooting a sr-71 at 29/70 with a maxima hunter 350 with 100 gr points blazer vanes. anyone think i will have spine issues?thanks


I ran your numbers with a 28" arrow and a typical bow set up (string loop, d-loop) on OT2 and it's showing a spine that is very weak for your bow. It recommends changing to a 450 spine or cranking your bow down to about 60#. However, broadheads hitting left is an indication of a stiff spine, so I can't really tell what is going on. Did you have to move your rest far to the left for it to paper tune? Are you feeling the bow torque or jump in your hand when the arrow releases?


----------



## Cajun83

buckarcher said:


> I ran your numbers with a 28" arrow and a typical bow set up (string loop, d-loop) on OT2 and it's showing a spine that is very weak for your bow. It recommends changing to a 450 spine or cranking your bow down to about 60#. However, broadheads hitting left is an indication of a stiff spine, so I can't really tell what is going on. Did you have to move your rest far to the left for it to paper tune? Are you feeling the bow torque or jump in your hand when the arrow releases?


Carbon Express shafts are labeled differently than just about all of the other shafts out there. 

With CE, he higher the number the stiffer the shaft, as opposed to most other manufacturers where the number more closesly correlates to the actual deflection of the uncut shaft (lower number, stiffer shaft, higher number, weaker shaft).


----------



## Cajun83

mt hunter22 said:


> okay so now im really confused the easton tuning guide says that for a right handed shooter,if you are hitting left,move the rest in towards the bow.so my question is .which way do i move the rest if broadheads are hitting to the left and im a right handed shooter? also i am shooting a sr-71 at 29/70 with a maxima hunter 350 with 100 gr points blazer vanes. anyone think i will have spine issues?thanks


The SR-71 is a FAST bow so I think your spine is pretty close. 

With broadheads, chase the field points. If your broadheads are hitting left, move the rest right a touch. 

You could jump up to a 125 grain head, therefore weakening the spine just a bit (Plus the added benefit of increased penetration due to higher FOC%) and see if that helps you out.


----------



## buckarcher

Cajun83 said:


> Carbon Express shafts are labeled differently than just about all of the other shafts out there.
> 
> With CE, he higher the number the stiffer the shaft, as opposed to most other manufacturers where the number more closesly correlates to the actual deflection of the uncut shaft (lower number, stiffer shaft, higher number, weaker shaft).


Not sure what you're going with that? Isn't that what I said? The OT2 software says use a heavier spine (450) because his is too weak.


----------



## cordini

buckarcher said:


> Yes you should. The purpose of broadhead tuning is to tune your bow to its maximum performance, not to make switching from field points to BH's easier on you. If you broadhead tune your bow (some call it fine or super tuning) then anything you shoot should have the same POI. I know people that broadhead tune their target bows.





Cajun83 said:


> I would tune the fixed blades myself. This will ensure that you get maximum efficiency out of the bow.


Okay, I see where you're both coming from on this....And yes, I have heard the same thing about people tuning their target bows with BH's. But, if it were me, I would be tuning with what I plan to hunt with right now. Just sayin'.....


----------



## Cajun83

buckarcher said:


> Not sure what you're going with that? Isn't that what I said? The OT2 software says use a heavier spine (450) because his is too weak.


Misread what you typed... 

After re-reading your post, you are correct. 

Sorry about that.


----------



## buckarcher

Cajun83 said:


> Misread what you typed...
> 
> After re-reading your post, you are correct.
> 
> Sorry about that.


No biggy, just thought I missed something.


----------



## Cajun83

cordini said:


> Okay, I see where you're both coming from on this....And yes, I have heard the same thing about people tuning their target bows with BH's. But, if it were me, I would be tuning with what I plan to hunt with right now. Just sayin'.....


The mech heads will still group with the field points as they don't influence the flight characteristics of the arrow like a big fixed blade will but the arrow will leave the string straighter if the bow is tuned properly with fixed blades. The reason that broadhead tuning is the ultimate tuning is that you cannot see (without high speed camera's) what the string, nocking point and dynamic spine of the arrow is doing when you release. Sure, the mechanical centershot can be perfect and you can get perfect bulletholes through paper but when you add that extra set of steering surfaces, any flex in the shaft and any nock travel will become painfully obvious. 

Broadhead tuning is in essence "supertuning" your bow... to you. Not on some hooter shooter with no influence on the riser before, during or after the shot.


----------



## buckarcher

cordini said:


> Okay, I see where you're both coming from on this....And yes, I have heard the same thing about people tuning their target bows with BH's. But, if it were me, I would be tuning with what I plan to hunt with right now. Just sayin'.....


I understand what your saying and you really don't need to broadhead tune at all. When I first started archery I would just resight my bow to my broadheads, and got pass-threws with no problem. But if you want to get full potential out of your bow, broadhead tuning is the way to do it. The idea is, if you can get a broadhead to fly straight and true (because they are finicky) then your bow is fine tuned. Using field points is just a method to check the broadheads. If I used broadheads to tune my bow, and was using mechanicals or a different style BH for hunting, I would definitely check to see if they were hitting the same point as well. Chances are they will be and if they aren't, something may be wrong with that BH or mechanical. Sorry so long winded, but this is how it was explained to me.


----------



## Seanr900

*Goin out tomorrow*

I'm going out tomorrow to bh tune the bow and can't wait. After reading all 15 pages I have heard every imaginable question and problem, I'm certainly covered if I have any issues. 

Great post and instructions Doc.


----------



## ohiobeagler

ohiobeagler said:


> I've walked back tuned, paper tuned, and checked arrow spine. My fixed BH are left of field points, but I plan to shoot mechanicals and they are dead on with my field points. Should I still tune my fixed heads even though I do not plan on using them?


Got it tuned! Thanks.


----------



## DangMang

so, as i see it, if my broadheads are shooting straight right of my field points, I should move my rest left, correct?


----------



## Cajun83

DangMang said:


> so, as i see it, if my broadheads are shooting straight right of my field points, I should move my rest left, correct?


Yep, just a tiny bit at a time though...them, when they are both hitting in the same spot, adjust your sights accordingly. Got my NAP Hellrazors hitting with field points out to fifty yards on saturday. Ready to go for opening day


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## Extreme vft17

*Ttt*

Ttt


----------



## dmknark

what do you do if your rest has no up or down movement, like on the new whisker bisquit, its on a maxis 31


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## gbear

dmknark said:


> what do you do if your rest has no up or down movement, like on the new whisker bisquit, its on a maxis 31


move your d loop/nock point up/down on the string


----------



## bowhuntr311

gbear said:


> move your d loop/nock point up/down on the string


Yea, its a pain the but to do but if your rest has no up/down movement you must change your nocking point.


----------



## bob409

*bow*



Bowbuster said:


> Good stuff right there, thanks for taking the time.........:wink:


so what kind of compound bow do use?


----------



## M4Madness

Well, my bow isn't broadhead tuning at all. I've used mechanical broadheads as a crutch for as long as I can remember, and took 5 deer in the last two seasons with Rage 2-blade broadheads. After seeing this thread recently, I decided that it was time to learn how to broadhead tune. I bought a dozen fixed blade broadheads, and tried my best to tune this morning, to no avail whatsoever. 

My broadheads have the same elevation as my field points, but are impacting about 4-5" inches to the right. I moved my rest 1/16" left, and tried again. It didn't seem to close the gap any. I kept adjusting left in 1/16" increments until I'd moved it a full 1/4" total and it looked funny that far outside. No improvement.

I then moved my rest in 1/16" increments right, starting at 1/16" right of my original field point setting, and adjusted until I was 1/4" right and again looking funny that close to the riser. At no point in time did my field points and broadheads ever merge together.

My set-up:

2008 BowTech 82nd Airborne
28" draw length
53# draw weight
26" Victory V-Force HV 400 arrows with Blazer vanes on a 3* offset traveling 303 FPS
100-grain Magnus Stinger Buzzcut broadheads and 100-grain field points
300-grain total arrow weight with tip
FOC is 16.7%


----------



## Whitey375

I got one for you guys. Set up is in my sig. I took 8 Flatline 340's starting with just the standard shaft, no added weight, with a 100 grain broadhead, starting weight 375grs. I then added 10 grains more to successive arrows until I had arrows weighing 375, 385, 395, 405, 415, 425, 435, and 445 grains. At 375 to 415 grains they all tracked straight down the middle. Then at 425 to 445 they gradually started moving to the left and the heaviest arrows ended up about 3" left of center. Now I thought that was indicative of stiff spine, am I wrong? Bow is set up straight down the center.


----------



## thwackaddict

*can't remember for sure.....but....*



M4Madness said:


> Well, my bow isn't broadhead tuning at all. I've used mechanical broadheads as a crutch for as long as I can remember, and took 5 deer in the last two seasons with Rage 2-blade broadheads. After seeing this thread recently, I decided that it was time to learn how to broadhead tune. I bought a dozen fixed blade broadheads, and tried my best to tune this morning, to no avail whatsoever.
> 
> My broadheads have the same elevation as my field points, but are impacting about 4-5" inches to the right. I moved my rest 1/16" left, and tried again. It didn't seem to close the gap any. I kept adjusting left in 1/16" increments until I'd moved it a full 1/4" total and it looked funny that far outside. No improvement.
> 
> I then moved my rest in 1/16" increments right, starting at 1/16" right of my original field point setting, and adjusted until I was 1/4" right and again looking funny that close to the riser. At no point in time did my field points and broadheads ever merge together.
> 
> My set-up:
> 
> 2008 BowTech 82nd Airborne
> 28" draw length
> 53# draw weight
> 26" Victory V-Force HV 400 arrows with Blazer vanes on a 3* offset traveling 303 FPS
> 100-grain Magnus Stinger Buzzcut broadheads and 100-grain field points
> 300-grain total arrow weight with tip
> FOC is 16.7%


You may have a weak spine issue.(or too stiff can't remember for sure)
I always consult the "easton tuning guide". you should be able to find it somewhere on the web. It has easy to read pics and diagrams....like the beginning of this thread.


----------



## non-pro-archer

M4Madness said:


> Well, my bow isn't broadhead tuning at all. I've used mechanical broadheads as a crutch for as long as I can remember, and took 5 deer in the last two seasons with Rage 2-blade broadheads. After seeing this thread recently, I decided that it was time to learn how to broadhead tune. I bought a dozen fixed blade broadheads, and tried my best to tune this morning, to no avail whatsoever.
> 
> My broadheads have the same elevation as my field points, but are impacting about 4-5" inches to the right. I moved my rest 1/16" left, and tried again. It didn't seem to close the gap any. I kept adjusting left in 1/16" increments until I'd moved it a full 1/4" total and it looked funny that far outside. No improvement.
> 
> I then moved my rest in 1/16" increments right, starting at 1/16" right of my original field point setting, and adjusted until I was 1/4" right and again looking funny that close to the riser. At no point in time did my field points and broadheads ever merge together.
> 
> My set-up:
> 
> 2008 BowTech 82nd Airborne
> 28" draw length
> 53# draw weight
> 26" Victory V-Force HV 400 arrows with Blazer vanes on a 3* offset traveling 303 FPS
> 100-grain Magnus Stinger Buzzcut broadheads and 100-grain field points
> 300-grain total arrow weight with tip
> FOC is 16.7%


Got the same problem with my new bow, try to lower your poundage, it helped me


----------



## D-TRAIN

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1298244
any help?


----------



## D-TRAIN

D-TRAIN said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1298244
> any help?


nevermind guys!


----------



## a1hoyt.ca

*a1hoyt.ca*

Looks great this post needs to go out to everyone having BH tuning problems let them know this is on here also Lefties we have to do the oppisit go towards your riser righties usually go towards there riser.


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## IL 88

I wish everyone on ArcheryTalk would read this thread. You're the man, Doc :thumbs_up


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## Jay Sea

My broaheads hit 4" left and 2" lower than field point. I moved my rest right 1/16th and up 1/16. Broahead now hit at point of aim, however field point is now 4" high and 4" left. Do I now continue to move my rest up and right chasing the field point until they impact the same spot?


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## UofACat

Jay Sea said:


> My broaheads hit 4" left and 2" lower than field point. I moved my rest right 1/16th and up 1/16. Broahead now hit at point of aim, however field point is now 4" high and 4" left. Do I now continue to move my rest up and right chasing the field point until they impact the same spot?


You should "chase" your field tips. It's a little disconcerting that by moving the rest only 1/16" that it moved the POI that much to the opposite way (from right to left) and that it also increased the over/under distance. The key is not where you're aiming, but where both FTs and BHs hit.... you want the same point of impact (POI). 

How far are you shooting and are you gettiing a good grouping or just one arrow each etc?


after you get them to hit the same spot, then re-sight your bow in.


----------



## UofACat

UofACat said:


> You should "chase" your field tips. It's a little disconcerting that by moving the rest only 1/16" that it moved the POI that much to the opposite way (from right to left) and that it also increased the over/under distance. The key is not where you're aiming, but where both FTs and BHs hit.... you want the same point of impact (POI).
> 
> How far are you shooting and are you gettiing a good grouping or just one arrow each etc?
> 
> 
> after you get them to hit the same spot, then re-sight your bow in.


This is assuming that your overall setup is good... balance point, spine weight (shafts matched to draw weight), straight arrows, broadheads straight, good release, vanes/fletching not striking your cables or rest, etc. etc....


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## Jay Sea

UofACat said:


> This is assuming that your overall setup is good... balance point, spine weight (shafts matched to draw weight), straight arrows, broadheads straight, good release, vanes/fletching not striking your cables or rest, etc. etc....


Shot at 30 yards and grouping was good.

I'm shooting a 70# Strother Vanquish @ 28.5" with Easton ACC 3-49s and 100 grain grizztricks. Initially my heads were shooting left (I am right-handed) indicating a stiff spine. Should I try the 125 grain grizztricks before moving my rest?


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## talonwolf37

this is one thing i have never done.so my question before i get started,i'm left handed,so do i move the rest the same way a right hand shooter would?


----------



## UofACat

Jay Sea said:


> Shot at 30 yards and grouping was good.
> 
> I'm shooting a 70# Strother Vanquish @ 28.5" with Easton ACC 3-49s and 100 grain grizztricks. Initially my heads were shooting left (I am right-handed) indicating a stiff spine. Should I try the 125 grain grizztricks before moving my rest?


You can if you want, but even with a stiff spine you should be able to get them striking the same spot. With a weak spine it's more difficult. If I had them I'd shoot field tips through paper first to see how the bow is doing with them (tear-wise), but I'd probably not go out and buy them just to see how they're doing. Mark your rest, you can always move it back if you want to so don't be leary of moving it.

If you're spine is stiff there can be some "instability" in the flight as the arrow is likely not balanced and a slight wind can actually affect it more than with a properly balanced arrow. Without going into a lot of detail, what's the balnce point % (there's lots online as to what this means and what it should be...)? This will tell you if the tip weight, field tip or broadhead, is correct or not.



talonwolf37 said:


> this is one thing i have never done.so my question before i get started,i'm left handed,so do i move the rest the same way a right hand shooter would?


Well, it's sort of backwards depending on exactly to what you're referring to, but the overall thought is that when your tuning how your broadheads fly compared to field tips it's exactly the same... you move your rest to have your broadheads follow where the field tips are grouping... i.e. if your broadheads are striking low compared to your field tips (all else being equal (straight shafts, spine weight OK, balance point "normal", heads mounted straight and spin "true", vanes not striking the rest or cables etc.)) move your rest up or nock point down. If your broadheads are grouping to the left of your field tips, move the rest to the right (in your case away from your bow, whereas a right handed shooter would be moving the rest to the right, *towards the bow* etc.).

Make sense? Move the rest so your broadhead grouping "follows" where the field tip groups strike.


----------



## SARASR

TTT and a Bump fpr a great thread, :thumbs_up


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## Matt Musto

How many broadheads and field tips do you shoot in each "round" to get your initial POI before you start making adjustments? one of each? Tonight I shot each arrow twice with my Shuttle T-lock at 20 yards. I already know that my field tips are shooting 1" groups at 20 yards with 3 arrow rounds. One arrow was almost dead on and the rest were about 1.5"-2" right of my bullseye. At 30 yards the broadhead hits about 3"-4" right with all the arrows. What should be my next move?


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## gbear

Matt Musto said:


> How many broadheads and field tips do you shoot in each "round" to get your initial POI before you start making adjustments? one of each? Tonight I shot each arrow twice with my Shuttle T-lock at 20 yards. I already know that my field tips are shooting 1" groups at 20 yards with 3 arrow rounds. One arrow was almost dead on and the rest were about 1.5"-2" right of my bullseye. At 30 yards the broadhead hits about 3"-4" right with all the arrows. What should be my next move?


Did you spin test each arrow before you shot them? That might tell you if that "one" was a flier or not. Or if they all need to be squared. You're chasing your tail if your BHs don't spin straight. Your next move is to move your rest left 1/16" and note the change. Then another 1/16" if necessary. 
I usually shoot 2 FPs to each BH. My BH is on an arrow that spins perfect. Then when everything is hitting the same POI, i check each and every arrow with a BH and earmark the ones that fly perfect for hunting only. I might shoot them at a target 2-3 times a year but that's it. I use the others for every day shooting.


----------



## mattweum

I have been struggling with broadheads and field tips grouping together for a long time and am readily confused. I am shooting a Reezen 7 at 70lbs and 30 inch draw. I pair that with CX Maxima hunter 350's and 100 grain tips. At distances from 20-70 yards my field tips group great. My broadheads are 6 inches right and 1 inch down at 30 yards. The broadheads in question are NAP Thunderheads. If i shoot a Rage 2 blade at 30 yards it impacts exactly like my field tips. When paper tuning my Reezen I had to move my rest so close to the riser I received constant fletching contact regardless of vane placement. The rest in question is a vapor trail and the vanes are 2' blazers. moving the rest a bit away from the riser allowed me to be a bit out of tune but shoot tight groups at all distances. 

The easy solution is to shoot expandable heads but I am concerned about the bow being tuned properly due to different impact points. Will moving my rest left (to move my broadhead point of impact) allow me to achieve my goal of same point of impact, or will it sacrifice any chance of the bow being in tune (when shooting through paper)?

Thanks.


----------



## gbear

mattweum said:


> I have been struggling with broadheads and field tips grouping together for a long time and am readily confused. I am shooting a Reezen 7 at 70lbs and 30 inch draw. I pair that with CX Maxima hunter 350's and 100 grain tips. At distances from 20-70 yards my field tips group great. My broadheads are 6 inches right and 1 inch down at 30 yards. The broadheads in question are NAP Thunderheads. If i shoot a Rage 2 blade at 30 yards it impacts exactly like my field tips. When paper tuning my Reezen I had to move my rest so close to the riser I received constant fletching contact regardless of vane placement. The rest in question is a vapor trail and the vanes are 2' blazers. moving the rest a bit away from the riser allowed me to be a bit out of tune but shoot tight groups at all distances.
> 
> The easy solution is to shoot expandable heads but I am concerned about the bow being tuned properly due to different impact points. Will moving my rest left (to move my broadhead point of impact) allow me to achieve my goal of same point of impact, or will it sacrifice any chance of the bow being in tune (when shooting through paper)?
> 
> Thanks.


Have you done any other type of tune besides paper? like walkback or bare shaft or modified french tune. My first thought is that you are applying torque either at the string or the riser. You might go back to the paper and apply a little pressure with your bow hand finger tips and see if it tunes easier. If you're applying torque at the string then try a different release.
Which fingers are on your limbdriver? it is the limbdriver right? The blazers are a high profile. Just a little tweak on the nock can be the difference between contact and no contact, especially with the limbdriver. I've had to bend out the tabs a little on the LD, the tabs that keep the arrow lined up on the rest. Make sure the LD is going flat down on the shelf too.
As for the BHs, do the lip stick test to make sure that all fletching contact is gone. Just a brush can send a BH way off. Just a brush with a FP isn't a big deal cause you can still shoot tight groups.


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## mattweum

I am shooting the limbdriver that's correct. I have done some walk back tuning and am pretty good there. I will try the lipstick test on contact again but I am almost convinced that I am under spined right now. I have moved the rest almost right on top of the riser and still tear a bit right.


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## sean48855

i been doing that all week a few hours a day with groups gettin bigger and father apart what gives about to throw it in the trash prob something dumb any pointers is a 300 spine to stiff for my setup maybe i dont know i need help

switchback 30" 68lbs qad ultra rest
28" beman ics hunter 300
100gr montec


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## gbear

sean48855 said:


> i been doing that all week a few hours a day with groups gettin bigger and father apart what gives about to throw it in the trash prob something dumb any pointers is a 300 spine to stiff for my setup maybe i dont know i need help


If your groups are getting bigger, then something is wrong. If you can't shoot, i.e. a X" @ X0 yds group, consistently from day to day then you're probably not going to have good results with this procedure. Maybe something is wrong with your bow, cracked limb perhaps. Fletching contact. out of time. If it's not your setup then you're probably tired and/or frustrated and you aren't going to get good results. I usually do BH tuning first thing in the morning when i'm well rested. 
The 300 is stiff, but i shoot .300 and .345 thru mine and haven't noticed a remarkable difference in BH flight.


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## mattweum

I did this today and got my BH and FP hitting exactly the same out to 40 yards (that's as far as I had time to go). My question for the experts is now my bow is out of paper tune. How bad is that?


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## gbear

mattweum said:


> I did this today and got my BH and FP hitting exactly the same out to 40 yards (that's as far as I had time to go). My question for the experts is now my bow is out of paper tune. How bad is that?


When you're BH tuned you're there. It doesn't matter what the paper says. You should be shooting perfect bullet holes in the paper though, but i'm not going to say you will find that in all situations. 
BH tuning is making sure the BH comes off of the bow straight. If it is coming off at a slight angle then the BH is going to steer the arrow away from the POH. this is why the BH has to spin test perfect. FPs have a lot of tolerance for how much out of tune a bow can be cause they are only being steered by the vanes. 
Just for reference, what was it that finally got your BHs and FPs hitting together?
Glad to hear you got it shooting, good luck this season.


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## Atheist

I tried this tonight and wasn't able to have much success. I was grouping my FP's perfectly at 20 and 30 yards but my BH's (Grizztricks) were shooting 5'' low and 5'' right. I moved my rest up slightly and they were on vertically at 20. Then I moved my rest left and both the FPs and the BHs moved over the same amount at 20. I can't get them any closer? Tips? I shot 50 shots, no luck.

Bow: Mathews SB, QAD Ultra rest, new (60 total shots) winner's choice string


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## gbear

Atheist said:


> I tried this tonight and wasn't able to have much success. I was grouping my FP's perfectly at 20 and 30 yards but my BH's (Grizztricks) were shooting 5'' low and 5'' right. I moved my rest up slightly and they were on vertically at 20. Then I moved my rest left and both the FPs and the BHs moved over the same amount at 20. I can't get them any closer? Tips? I shot 50 shots, no luck.
> 
> Bow: Mathews SB, QAD Ultra rest, new (60 total shots) winner's choice string


Are you're arrows spined properly? You haven't given any useful info about your setup.


----------



## Atheist

gbear said:


> Are you're arrows spined properly? You haven't given any useful info about your setup.


Sorry about that! Thanks for the reply though!

I have a 30'' DL and am shooting at 70lbs with a 100gr grizztrick. I am shooting easton n-fused ST axis arrows with a .300 spine which should be correct according to their website.. Your thoughts/ideas?


----------



## gbear

Atheist said:


> Sorry about that! Thanks for the reply though!
> 
> I have a 30'' DL and am shooting at 70lbs with a 100gr grizztrick. I am shooting easton n-fused ST axis arrows with a .300 spine which should be correct according to their website.. Your thoughts/ideas?


Have you done any other tuning before the BH?
If your arrow length is the same as your draw then the .300 is correct, but a lot of people shoot a shorter arrow. If your arrow is 29" then .340 would be proper spine. Either way if you think you are good with the arrow, i'd rule out torque. When you're at full draw curl your 2 middle fingers around the grip and apply just a small amount of pressure at the front off side of the riser. Then shoot. 
you can also apply torque with your release, i.e. when i use my t-handle i can't get my bow to tune, when i switch to a wrist strap-no problems.


----------



## Atheist

gbear said:


> Have you done any other tuning before the BH?
> If your arrow length is the same as your draw then the .300 is correct, but a lot of people shoot a shorter arrow. If your arrow is 29" then .340 would be proper spine. Either way if you think you are good with the arrow, i'd rule out torque. When you're at full draw curl your 2 middle fingers around the grip and apply just a small amount of pressure at the front off side of the riser. Then shoot.
> you can also apply torque with your release, i.e. when i use my t-handle i can't get my bow to tune, when i switch to a wrist strap-no problems.


Hello,

I believe my shooting form is pretty good. Last year I did not have any problems however this year the string rest and sight are all new, although they were all installed professionally by a very good bow shop in town. 

I am using a wrist-style release and, as I said, was able to group my broadheads with my field points last year on the old setup on my bow. I have not done any other tuning.. I was thinking of trying walk back tonight. Is there something else I should do?


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## lmills34

So i'm starting to broadhead tune like the thread tells me to but I have a problem. I shoot a Hoyt Katera XL and a trophy taker rest. When I move my rest left or right, the (prongs) on the rest start hitting the arrow shelf because it's very narrow. So one "prong" on the rest is hitting the shelf and the other is just kind of floating. Now what?


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## gbear

lmills34 said:


> So i'm starting to broadhead tune like the thread tells me to but I have a problem. I shoot a Hoyt Katera XL and a trophy taker rest. When I move my rest left or right, the (prongs) on the rest start hitting the arrow shelf because it's very narrow. So one "prong" on the rest is hitting the shelf and the other is just kind of floating. Now what?


Can you post a pic?


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## lmills34

Sorry for wasting your time, but I realized it's actually fletching contact. I didn't think it was because I brought my bow in twice already to fix this and apparently it came back again.


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## gbear

you're not wasting our time here, we're doing that plenty well with out help. :smile: anyway, glad you found the problem.


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## the-rickster

Still a great post!


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## skfdasfdsa

*dgfdgfdgdf*

100 gain Muzzy 3 blade/Rage 2 blade broadheads


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## CaptPete

Looking for some help....starting to get frustrated. I put new string and cables on it and everything is timed & to spec. I paper tuned the bow... it wasn't quite shooting bullet holes, but I was happy with where it was at because I knew I would be BH tuning it. I then sighted it in out 40 yards. I started with bh tuning yesterday and couldn't get it straightened out. The bh keeps shooting right. I can get the fp & bh pretty close at 20 yards, but when I move to 30, the bh are shooting right again. I have moved the rest about as far to the left as I can(chasing the fp). I'm at the point now that if I stand the bow up and line the string up with center of the riser & cams you can see the tip of the arrow pointing to the left. Looking at Eastons Tuning Guide it says that this indicates a weak shaft. I turned the weight down one turn without any noticable difference. My OnTarget program says I'm a little on the stiff side. I have checked for fletching contact and don't have any. Here is what I'm shooting:
'08 Bowtech Guardian with a QAD HD rest & new this year Sword Twilight Hunter. The bow is set at 27.5" draw and 56 lbs.
Victory VForce V3 400's @ 28" ...shaft only, no nock or insert... fletched with 3- 2" blazer and 3.5" wrap. I also have some fletched with 2" Fusions. The arrows with Fusions shoot worse than the blazers. They are both fletched with the same offset. I'm using the same release I as I did last year.
This is the same setup I used last year and had no troubles getting tuned. The only thing that changed was the string & cables and sight. I felt that I wouldn't have needed to make much for adjustments to the left or right since I never touched the rest...guess I wrong.

Kevin


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## bowhntng4evr

Great post DOC. Thanks.


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## Guest

Great post. Very well done.


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## tjsjr

I went out and tried BH tuing today. I got my FP dialed in out to 30yds and stuck on my Muzzy 100gr 3 blades. The arrows started inpacting the target at an angle. The tip was to the left of the knock by about 2"-3" (I'm a lefty if it matters.) I'm not queit sure of poundage my VXS maxed at 62lbs then I backed it off 3 full turns (I know, turn in my man card  ). Anyhow arrows are Easton ST Axis 340 26" shafts with 2" blazers wraps and 100gr muzzy 3 blade, 400 total grns. Any help? Overspined?


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## IrkedCitizen

To figure out if you are overspined you can either put a heavier BH on or turn up the poundage to weaken the spine. But I am assuming the answer is yes. Shooting in the 50's and at your arrow length and broadhead weight you shouldn't need 340's.


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## tjsjr

Don't have any heavier BHs. Does the way they are hitting sound consistant with being overspined though?


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## hoytviper06

Well done sir, I have missunderstood this concept for a while but thanks to your clear and concise work I can now imply the same techniques.


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## zakseppala

I was doing the broadhead tune today got it pretty good out to 50 my question is? I brought bow to the shop where I bought it had them check center shot they do it with a laser he said it was an 1/8th off is that a problem and I'm shooting a destroyer350 60llbs with goldtip 5575 cut to 26in with 100 grain tips am I spined right cause I shot a maxima hunter same length in a 250 and the shot a broad it was way off if I tune with one arrow shouldn't it be in tune with all arrows that are spined correct


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## steveo19

*Broadhead tune or Bow torque.*

The other day I had to get a new rest, I went into the shop and picked up a TT Smackdown had the shop owner install it and get everything tuned up on my bow. He said he put the laser on it and had to adjust a few things from my previous set-up. He said my old rest was too far right probably why I was getting some goofy arrow flight and moved the knocking point down. 

So I shot it at his indoor range got everything sighted in and pretty good groups out to 40 yards with field points, groups about the size of a softball. 

Tonight I went to the outdoor range, shot some more and shot a few broadheads. At 20they were just slightly right and at 40 they were a good 6-8 inches right of my field points. Also I did noticed my field point arrows were slightly angled when they were sticking into the target out at 40 not straight in like they were at 30 and 20.

I did noticed tonight when I would come to full draw my bubble would come to rest just right of center, so I was adjusting and having to twist the bow left slightly to get it level.


Long story short, should I move my rest slightly left, or are my broadheads not flying correct because I might be torquing the bow.


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## c1090c

I got my broad heads to group with my field points, but it kooks like my arrow is angling left when it is nicked and in the rest, any ideas why this is? Bowtech tribute,70 lbs 29", terminator hunters 60-75, whisker biscuit


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## c1090c

Nevermind. I think I got it. For the first time I think I am truely broadhead tuned. I always used to just sight in my broad heads, but now I have my heads and field points grouping together. Great thread!!


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## tjsjr

On the vendetta xs's are you having any trouble getting them to broadhead tune with wisker biscuits? Mine is maxed out to the left and hitting on the cable slide rod (left handed bow). Broadheads still hitting about 2" right of field points at 40yds. Just looking for some input thanks.
Tony


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## c1090c

If you are broadhead tuning and your broad heads are hitting to the left at what point do you consider a stiff spine? After you move the rest1/16. Or 1/8? Just wondering. Thanks.


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## tjsjr

What's all this talk about shooting bare shafts?? I just tried ot twice and it doesn't seem to be a very good idea.


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## Cannonball08

Hey Guys real quick question


Shooting a 29 inch Captain on around 64 pound, 29 inch axis 400 with 100gr. slick trick. 

My broad head poi is to the right of my practice tips. Probably half inch or less at 20 yards and magnifier further and further to the right at further ranges. I moved my rest left, left and more left and they are chasing each other the gap is the same reguardless. I moved the rest up and it helped slightly improve the gap, but my broadhead is still a tad to the right of my field tips

Any help would be appriciated!
Thanks!


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## GhostBuck_007

So I'm having some problems getting my BH and field points to match up. I've adjusted enough to where my BH's are shooting 3" high of my field points at 25 yards. Windage is spot on, but I just can't seem to bring them together vertically. I'm shooting an X-Force Dream Season GX, 70lbs, 29 3/8" draw, 29" Beman ICS Hunter 340's, 2" Rayzrs w/ right helical, 100gr G5 Strikers, and a QAD Pro HD rest.

If I move my nocking point up any more I get flecthing contact, if I move rest down any more I get the same due to the forks not laying down all the way. Could my problem be rest timing or something else? I'm at a loss. Fyi bow is in tune with respect to cam timing, tiller, etc...


----------



## gbear

Cannonball08 said:


> Hey Guys real quick question
> 
> 
> Shooting a 29 inch Captain on around 64 pound, 29 inch axis 400 with 100gr. slick trick.
> 
> My broad head poi is to the right of my practice tips. Probably half inch or less at 20 yards and magnifier further and further to the right at further ranges. I moved my rest left, left and more left and they are chasing each other the gap is the same reguardless. I moved the rest up and it helped slightly improve the gap, but my broadhead is still a tad to the right of my field tips
> 
> Any help would be appriciated!
> Thanks!


What is the spine on the AXIS?


----------



## gbear

GhostBuck_007 said:


> So I'm having some problems getting my BH and field points to match up. I've adjusted enough to where my BH's are shooting 3" high of my field points at 25 yards. Windage is spot on, but I just can't seem to bring them together vertically. I'm shooting an X-Force Dream Season GX, 70lbs, 29 3/8" draw, 29" Beman ICS Hunter 340's, 2" Rayzrs w/ right helical, 100gr G5 Strikers, and a QAD Pro HD rest.
> 
> If I move my nocking point up any more I get flecthing contact, if I move rest down any more I get the same due to the forks not laying down all the way. Could my problem be rest timing or something else? I'm at a loss. Fyi bow is in tune with respect to cam timing, tiller, etc...


Have you done any other tuning? ie walkback, paper, etc. How are your BH groups compared to FP groups?


----------



## GhostBuck_007

gbear said:


> Have you done any other tuning? ie walkback, paper, etc. How are your BH groups compared to FP groups?


Bow has been paper tuned, walkback tuned, at 25 yards with field points a three arrow group will mostly all touch each other, three arrow broad head group is generally 2-3" group. I'm thinking I might try to chase my field points to my broadheads and see what it does...


----------



## gbear

GhostBuck_007 said:


> Bow has been paper tuned, walkback tuned, at 25 yards with field points a three arrow group will mostly all touch each other, three arrow broad head group is generally 2-3" group. I'm thinking I might try to chase my field points to my broadheads and see what it does...


Can't hurt. More than a few in this thread have chased the FPs and straightened things out.


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## Jay Sea

Guys,I have a 70# 28" DL shooting 27.5" Easton ACC 3-49. Shooting 100 grain Slick Trick Grizztrick heads the point of impact was low and left of my field point. To get near the same pio, I ended up tuning my fp to bh. Now, my center shot is well left of center, about 1". 

Is this common? Easton tuning guide indicates stiff spine. Shoud I try less stiff arrows or a 125 grain bh?

Thanks


----------



## Spurhunter

Jay Sea said:


> Guys,I have a 70# 28" DL shooting 27.5" Easton ACC 3-49. Shooting 100 grain Slick Trick Grizztrick heads the point of impact was low and left of my field point. To get near the same pio, I ended up tuning my fp to bh. Now, my center shot is well left of center, about 1".
> 
> Is this common? Easton tuning guide indicates stiff spine. Shoud I try less stiff arrows or a 125 grain bh?
> 
> Thanks


Check your vane clearance first and shooting form first! If that isn't the problem then in addition to the fixes you already suggested you could also increase your bow poundage provided it isn't already maxed out. 
Good luck.


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## MartinBowBro

Does this setup for you aolso work at other yards? like 40 and 50?


----------



## Doc

MartinBowBro said:


> Does this setup for you aolso work at other yards? like 40 and 50?


This has to work or you're not done yet. Try to check at least 2 yardages.


----------



## Don Schultz

Well put Doc. For all, the greatest the distance at which YOU can hold good field point groups is the distance to use for this tuning method. I appreciate that you may have to start at a shorter range just to keep the broadheads on the paper. With a good setup (adequate spine, and no vane contact), this system takes a very short time to accomplish.


----------



## delirious_1

Thanks for this guide. Question, I noticed that when you got the broadhead centered, the FP was high and you moved the rest up 1/16th until the BH was grouping with the FP. Why didn't the field point move higher as well? Looks like you are adjusting the rest and BH chasing the FP until you have them grouped then adjusting the site back to center. 

But why did the FP raise with the rest level up to a point and stop and let the BH catch up? This is what has frustrated me so far but to know eventually the FP won't raise anymore and let the BH catch up helps me. Thanks.


----------



## Don Schultz

The broadhead tipped arrow is aerodynamically different from the FP arrow. The blades have a steering effect on the arrow greater than the FP. So, the FP arrow did move up but not as much as the BH arrow, because of the steering effect of the blades. 

The whole process described here so well by Doc is a true 'fine tuning' of the hunting bow. Its result is more important than any other tuning method results.


----------



## delirious_1

Don Schultz said:


> The broadhead tipped arrow is aerodynamically different from the FP arrow. The blades have a steering effect on the arrow greater than the FP. So, the FP arrow did move up but not as much as the BH arrow, because of the steering effect of the blades.
> 
> The whole process described here so well by Doc is a true 'fine tuning' of the hunting bow. Its result is more important than any other tuning method results.


I see. I've put a helical on my vanes, how do you think that affects the steering effect of the broadhead? my thougts are that the helical reduces the steering effect. I'm wondering why the steering effect is unidirectional. Being down in this case since it's lower then the FP in the next to last step. Maybe i'm complicating things but to know that the BH catches up to the FP helps me. Can't wait to do shoot this afternoon.


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## The Phantom

ttt


----------



## badfaulkner

Thanks to everyone on this thread for the help they've provided. I did paper tuning on Sunday and was pleased with my first shot. 










My muzzy's and field points are shooting tight groups, so much so that the field points actually knocked the muzzy's off inside the target. Thanks to ballison90 for the forward of that magnificent compilation of AT postings. Thanks to Spurhunter for the Easton link.


----------



## PSE Young Gun

the rest is the last thing you want to move wen sighting in your bow you want to move your hole sight wen your sighting in your 1st pin the u move them seaperately


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## PSE Young Gun

vary nice video


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## ahk

*this may be a dumb question?*

just got done bare shaft tuning,paper tuning (bullets),walk back tuning all looks good ,getting ready to broadhead tune,doesn't messing with rest at this point null a void the other tuning?:set1_thinking:


----------



## Doc

ahk said:


> just got done bare shaft tuning,paper tuning (bullets),walk back tuning all looks good ,getting ready to broadhead tune,doesn't messing with rest at this point null a void the other tuning?:set1_thinking:


No...it's like going from 80 grit to 120 grit to 200 grit sand paper. You aren't going to be shooting bareshafts at an animal are you?:wink:


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## txcookie

Got me some tricks they are hitting two inches high ofmy field tips at twenty. This should probably be a super quick fix right?


----------



## Doc

txcookie said:


> Got me some tricks they are hitting two inches high ofmy field tips at twenty. This should probably be a super quick fix right?


It should being it's a height issue. If it was left/right it may not be as quick of a fix. I'd move the rest 1/8" down and see where that puts you.


----------



## ahk

Doc said:


> No...it's like going from 80 grit to 120 grit to 200 grit sand paper. You aren't going to be shooting bareshafts at an animal are you?:wink:


:teeth:no bare shaft hunting for me.
So it just refines the tune that much more. thanks for the response.
Will start broadhead tuning tonight,will try your
method:thumbs_up


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## ahk

Started to broadhead tune tonight,i guess all the prior tuning payed off the broadheads were shooting 2" high,made 1 adjustment of 1/32 they got closer and a 2nd adustment down 1/32 and they all came together.The only downside is i messed up two muzzy heads and i'm refletching some arrows do to cut off vanes,small price to pay. I'm glad it went well and thanks to all that posted info on this topic.


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## dwagaman

Love this thread...Wanted to give it a bump.......


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## martinfirecat

dwagaman said:


> Love this thread...Wanted to give it a bump.......


Good job!


----------



## brianerwin

I wonder if I can add somthing to this. 
First you lost me at the 3rd shot where your broadhead was right on the mark but the Field point was high. I thought why would you move
the rest up when the BH was right? Then it occured to me that we are tuning the whole shot reguardless if it is a FP or BH.
When you moved the rest up again and the 4th shot, both points were together. Made sense that you moved the rest. (it was kind of like the first shot where it was low and you needed to move the BH shot higher.) 
At this point you HAD to move the sight and brought both shots to the "X".
I guess there are 3 rules here.
1. When tuning a broad head make sure that it matches your field point shot first. Reguardless if it in the X or not.
2. Move the rest first to match the field point shot. (opposite direction of the shot. (ex. if the shot is left, move rest right))
3. When FP and BH are hitting the same spot, move the sight to center the shot. (Follow the arrow. (ex. if the shot is high move the sight up))

Of course we have to make sure that the bow is tuned up enough so that field points are good.


----------



## TNstalker

Ok, I'm stumped. Trying to tune by BH's over the last couple of days and it just ain't coming together. Never had this problem before.

I can get my BHs to group within 4" (lateral spread, vertical is good to go) of my FPs but no matter which way I move the rest I can't get them to close in any closer. The BHs are hitting to the left and I'm out of room to shift my rest to the right (any closer and I'll be bouncing fletching off the riser). 

This is the most aggravated I've ever been trying to tune. Usually it takes me 30 mins and I'm done. I just bought a dozen Axis 340s cut to 29" (standard length/spine that I have always shot) and I just can't get the BHs to group. Any ideas?


----------



## g.sampey

just to find later


----------



## ranger_49

You get my vote for "Sticky"

Thanks for taking the time..........


----------



## DavidBLingo

As a reminder for later. Great thread.


----------



## krist003

g.sampey said:


> just to find later


x2

Great thread! Thank you!


----------



## dtrkyman

TNstalker said:


> Ok, I'm stumped. Trying to tune by BH's over the last couple of days and it just ain't coming together. Never had this problem before.
> 
> I can get my BHs to group within 4" (lateral spread, vertical is good to go) of my FPs but no matter which way I move the rest I can't get them to close in any closer. The BHs are hitting to the left and I'm out of room to shift my rest to the right (any closer and I'll be bouncing fletching off the riser).
> 
> This is the most aggravated I've ever been trying to tune. Usually it takes me 30 mins and I'm done. I just bought a dozen Axis 340s cut to 29" (standard length/spine that I have always shot) and I just can't get the BHs to group. Any ideas?


spine issue? check for fletching contact, and cam lean.


----------



## bowhntng4evr

Great thread.


----------



## HCA Iron Mace

bump


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## browningBAMA

I love this thread!!!!!!!!!, my rest is probably gonna be hard to adjust but I cant wait to try B.H. tuning. I'm pretty sure I have got vane clearance issues and the rest is sometimes not dropping at all so..... I'm sure that it's not gonna be easy but I'm shooting Montecs and even without tuning they hit identical to the f.p. @ 20 yards


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## ohiobeagler

I'm trying some new heads this year, Magus Buzzcuts. Last year when I tuned my Slick Tricks, my BH's were hitting a few inches left of my FP's at 20 yards. I moved my rest to the right, and the grouping widened. I tried moving the rest to left and that tuned the bow. Any explanation for this? I shot the Buzzcuts today, and they too are a few inches to the left of my FP's. I ran my set up on tuning program and everything checked out too.


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## ohiobeagler

*update on tuning*

Here is an update on my above post.
Remember that my Slick Tricks and Buzzcuts were both hitting a few inches left of my field points. The only way to tune the Slick Tricks was to move my rest to the left. This is unconventional according the Easton guide and what fellas are describing here at AT. Now the Buzzcuts were tuned immediately after moving the rest to the right, like the Easton guide recommends. Any ideas why two are so different?


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## dussen

i also had to move my slicktricks to the left to tune. ive always been puzzled by this too.


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## bartonmt

Great thread!!!


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## GhostBuck_007

ohiobeagler said:


> Here is an update on my above post.
> Remember that my Slick Tricks and Buzzcuts were both hitting a few inches left of my field points. The only way to tune the Slick Tricks was to move my rest to the left. This is unconventional according the Easton guide and what fellas are describing here at AT. Now the Buzzcuts were tuned immediately after moving the rest to the right, like the Easton guide recommends. Any ideas why two are so different?


Last year my BH were hitting high of my FP so I moved my rest down and it only got worse. I figured what the heck I'll try the exact opposite, so I moved my rest up instead, and bingo, BH and FP were hitting together. For some reason sometimes working in the opposite direction pays off, why I don't know...although I suspect it might have something to do with the arrow fish tailing or porposing when leaving the bow...


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## feathermax ed

thats cool you can shoot broadheads in those targets ?


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## Scottebay

Doc,

I looked thru this post and couldn't see this question. If you tune a 100 grain fixed BH to your 100 grain FP, should you have to re-tune a different companies fixed 100grain BH?


----------



## Skoalman

After getting my broadheads tuned in on top of my FPs at 25 yards can I expect the same at 40?


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## Don Schultz

Skoalman; The short answer is yes. 

However, longer shots give a better indication of tendencies in the broadhead groups. In My Opinion one should tune at the longest range you can consistently shoot really good *fieldpoint* groups. 

Doc's tuning method will tighten your broadhead groups. To make this method work, one needs to shoot a bunch of arrows, so you need to be able to shoot 30-40 arrows in tight groups for a tuning session to be effective. 

What are good field point groups? Tight enough that you go to a multi-spot target face because it is to expensive to shoot one spot.


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## Doc

Scottebay said:


> Doc,
> 
> I looked thru this post and couldn't see this question. If you tune a 100 grain fixed BH to your 100 grain FP, should you have to re-tune a different companies fixed 100grain BH?


All things considered no need to re-tune...this is the point of tuning initially. There are broadheads out there cobbled together that just won't tune, but a quick spin test will let you know this. I can screw on various quality heads and get a real tight group. If you enter a crosswind, then the larger profile heads drift (e.g. ThunderHeads)


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## dwagaman

Bump


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## bowhuntermitch

Great thread. When customers get confused with broadhead poi, even after they're shooting a bullet hole I send them here!


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## Brook Martin

Ok i have my broadheads flying consistenly roght of my field points about 4-5 inches away. Should I move my rest to the left and try that or just sight my bow in to the right to be with my broadheads? Thanks!


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## Komi

I believe you would move rest left but am not pos may want to hear from someone who knows more then me...


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## Brook Martin

Ok I moved it lef and now its hitting high and right


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## autoguns

great info here Thanks to all who posted...


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## autoguns

I have been shooting axis st 400 nfused with 100gr FP's with blazers also fmj 400s set up the same @ 29" even though these arrows fly good out to 80yrds I think I these arrows may be a little under spined. Before I begin to tune for BH's I'd like know if I should shoot 340s at the same lenght with a 85 gr tip or ??? 

bows used ,destroyer 350 and invasion ,both are set up at 28"dl and 65lb


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## dille7

i was BH tuning today and BH were shooting high from fieldtips and moved rest down and got the BH hitting deadon but now my fieldtips are shooting low
whats next??


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## Treelinehntr

*BH group better than FP group ???*

Great thread guys, so much helpful information. 
I shoot a Bowtech Guardian 70lbs 28.5 DL. Shooting GT Pro 5575 Montech 100gr.
Prior to having my bow restrung I was shooting hole in one shots with BH into FP holes. Now BH is 3" to the right but the groups are very tight actually right in the same BH hole. These BH groups are better than my FP groups. I moved the rest 1/16 to the left and both BH and FP groups moved to the left about 3". Thanks for your help.


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## Treelinehntr

*Moved rest a bit more*

I moved it 1/32 more to the left and both the BH and the FP continued to move to the left.


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## Komi

My BH are hitting about 2 1/2" right of my FP but can't get to the screw to adjust (Rollers are in way) is there another way to adjust with out having to remove the rest or Rollers??? Does it sound as tho I am over or under spined?? I am shooting about 62# with a 28" CE maxima 250...


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## kwilson16

Treelinehntr and Komi,
You're both showing a little underpinned. 
You could turn down your draw weight, reduce tip weight or try a stiffer/shorter arrow. If this resolves the issue then you know that you were previously underpinned.


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## Ouachitamtnman

Excuse my ignorance, I'm pretty new at trying to tune my bow. All I've really ever messed with was the sight.
I have a few questions:
1. So broadhead tuning is to make BH and FP hit in the same spot, correct?
2. Accordind to the pictures and captions on the first page, you basically move the rest to make them line up together left and right and then move the sight to get them where you want them up and down?

I'm scared to move my rest but need to do this because my FP and BHs dont hit the same and I'm dulling my BHs and tearing up my target. I jsut want to make sure I'm covering all my bases first.

Thanks


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## Treelinehntr

kwilson16 said:


> Treelinehntr and Komi,
> You're both showing a little underpinned.
> You could turn down your draw weight, reduce tip weight or try a stiffer/shorter arrow. If this resolves the issue then you know that you were previously underpinned.


Thanks kwilson,
As I am just learning this bow tuning stuff I need to ask some questions. My arrow is currently 27" any shorter and it will be into my rest. My tips are 100 gr I really don't think one should be shooting elk with anything less. So I guess that leaves me with turning down my draw weight or moving to the 7595 arrow. Although thinking about this last night, my BH are shooting incredible groups at 20yds. If I were to shoot at the same dot each time I would have robin hood after robin hood. So I ask myself should I mess with it? Maybe I should just tweak the site a bit and let it be until after elk season.


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## Scottebay

Doc said:


> All things considered no need to re-tune...this is the point of tuning initially. There are broadheads out there cobbled together that just won't tune, but a quick spin test will let you know this. I can screw on various quality heads and get a real tight group. If you enter a crosswind, then the larger profile heads drift (e.g. ThunderHeads)


Thanks Doc!


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## jogr

Ouachitamtnman said:


> Excuse my ignorance, I'm pretty new at trying to tune my bow. All I've really ever messed with was the sight.
> I have a few questions:
> 1. So broadhead tuning is to make BH and FP hit in the same spot, correct?
> 2. Accordind to the pictures and captions on the first page, you basically move the rest to make them line up together left and right and then move the sight to get them where you want them up and down?
> 
> I'm scared to move my rest but need to do this because my FP and BHs dont hit the same and I'm dulling my BHs and tearing up my target. I jsut want to make sure I'm covering all my bases first.
> 
> Thanks


1)Yes 
2) Yes on moving rest side to side to align to align BH and FP horizontally; No on moving sight to align BH and FP vertically: You move the rest up/down to align BH and FP vertically.

When they both hit in the same spot then you adjust the sight so that spot is the bullseye. Moving the sight does not bring the BH to the FP.


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## carkev

I tried all last fall to BH tune. i ended up shooting expandables as a bandaid until the season was over. This spring i picked up a stiffer heavier arrow i had laying around and it was like night and day. within minutes i had my Thunderheads dialed in. It was so simple i have since tried about 4-5 other BH and they all fly perfect....except for MX-4's. I can not get the 4 blade Muzzy to tune. They are all over the board. I've shot 2 other 3 blade Muzzy's and they fly great, it is only the 4 blade i have trouble with. But going from 400 to 340 spine made a world of difference.


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## rmscustom

carkev said:


> I tried all last fall to BH tune. i ended up shooting expandables as a bandaid until the season was over. This spring i picked up a stiffer heavier arrow i had laying around and it was like night and day. within minutes i had my Thunderheads dialed in. It was so simple i have since tried about 4-5 other BH and they all fly perfect....except for MX-4's. I can not get the 4 blade Muzzy to tune. They are all over the board. I've shot 2 other 3 blade Muzzy's and they fly great, it is only the 4 blade i have trouble with. But going from 400 to 340 spine made a world of difference.


had the same problem with the MX-4s.


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## Ned250

I'm now shooting fixed heads for the first time in my life (17th season this year). Thanks to this thread, I have these things tuned perfectly! I had to ever so slightly turn my nocks to get vane/cable clearance and that was all she wrote.

Matthews Z7 - 29" @ 70lbs
Goldtip XT Hunter 7595
nockturnals
slicktrick mags - 100gr

A word of caution - DO NOT try to BH tune on a windy day. I was ready to throw my Z7 in the garbage last week when trying to tune on a breezy/wind gust day. ukey:


----------



## Don Schultz

Ned250 said:


> ...I had to ever so slightly turn my nocks to get vane/cable clearance and that was all she wrote....
> ...A word of caution - DO NOT try to BH tune on a windy day....


Great example of what this method can do for you. If you can't make this method work at first, you have got either the wrong arrow spine, or contact. The second point is one that may not have been made before, that is, a windy day affects arrow flight, and it affects the BH arrow differently than it affects the FP arrow. Thanks to NED250


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## mfh432

I just found this thread. Had to make some last minute changes to my son's bow and am now waiting on a rest for mine... Season opens Oct 1... I plan to follow this method for my son's bow this weekend and hopefully mine when the rest arrives and be ready for Oct 1. Tuning has caused a great deal of frustration in the past (paper, walk back, modified french, etc). I have high hopes those will all be distant memories in favor of this new method. Thanks in advance to Doc and Don.

Mike


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## Brook Martin

My broadheads re hitting about 2 inches lower than my fiel points and I am using a whisker biscuit so should I moe my rest up? Thanks


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## MJP

I GIVE UP!!! I have been beating my head against the wall for the past two days. First off I cut my arrows from 31" to 29.5 " this really tightend up my field point groups. Walk backed tuned and looked good. Put on Magnus Buzzcuts and grouped 4" left and 2" down form field points. Adjusted rest a tad right and tad up. Chased them around the target till I ran out of room and started hitting the riser with fletching. NAP apache doesn't have much room to begin with btwn riser and rest as it is. Went back to original setting for field points and it's driving tacks at 60 yds. Arrow is now 452 grains at about 310 fps. I think the Rage will be fine. Suggestions for new rest that gives more room for adjustment on M7 are welcome or if there is something else that I can do???


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## Don Schultz

MJP, 

Some clues in your post as to what is going on. First is the performance 310fps and 452 grains. That is a POWERFUL bow. Very few arrows are going to have enough spine to stand up to that. The fact that cutting from 31" to 29.5 inches tightened the FP groups tells me your arrows were way to soft at 31", and may still be to soft at 29.5. 

To confirm the spine problem, I suggest reducing your draw weight. I would drop it 5lbs to start, and be prepared to drop 7-10 lbs if you can, and see how well the BH and FP groups may be made to merge then. If the draw weight reduction helps, you will have to decide what your permanent fix will be. 1.) accept the reduced draw weight 2) reduce tip weight (may help but may cause other problems) 3) Buy stiffer shafts.

I shoot 29" 410 grain #340 Bemans with 90 grain BHs. What spine are you shooting? What broadhead weight?


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## MJP

I am shooting Easton ST excels 300 spine with 100 grain broadhead


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## Don Schultz

MJP,

Yeah so dropping tip weight more than 10 grains is impractical. The shafts are about as stiff as you can get. I'll guess you can't shorten them any more than you have, and I hated overdraw rests even when they were popular, and we all used them. You may have to settle for a few foot/pounds less KE. Hopefully 5lbs of draw weight will get things shooting better.


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## MJP

I'll try to give her a turn or two down and see what happens. Long draw length is nice and sucks at the same time.


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## Don Schultz

Yeah. I used to be 31.5" but got some arthritis in my bow arm elbow. Now it's 31". But I love the KE!!.


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## moonshiner

Ok this may be a dumb question but .. I have been practicing & practicing with my field points. I slap on my broadheads and they are soo left they are off target at 20 yrds.. good news is I guess they are so close one slices off the vanes of the other.. so next time I aim wayyy right & its a Bulls eye. 

SO my question is..once I get these Boadheads to go where I want them too . what do I do when I just want to sling some arrows for practice sake with my Field tips or is this an issue that you have to repeat every year? If I finally get em on at 20 is it a good bet they are on at 30 & 40 .. they sure make a mess of a new target I can see my practice time going down from Daily to rarely


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## Don Schultz

Well yes you are correct. Dumb question. If you read the first 20 posts to this thread, you will see the method is based on getting the broadhead, and field tip groups to MERGE so they are hitting in the same place. So you should be able to throw a few fieldtipped arrows, and if they are on the mark, then you can be pretty sure the broadheads are going there also.


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## moonshiner

Well EXCUUUUUZE the F out of me. I really dont have the time to read 18 freakn pages 

pretty nasty attitude for such a god fearing christian

my rest does not have right or left adjustments


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## Don Schultz

Then I would guess you don't have the time to implement the tuning method, and probably not enough time to hunt. Problem solved.


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## moonshiner

your a christian or just pretend on Sundays not to go to Hell??


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## moonshiner

since they dont have an ignore button . let me ask this to someone civil 

How does one do this if your rest does not have a side to side adjustment? I noticed that the examples had rest R&L adjustments.


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## skynight

First, buy a new rest. Are you using one of those stick on rests?


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## moonshiner

nope an older hostage just goes up n down.. too late for a new rest.
I was wanting to tune my bow for Fixed Broadheads for my trip to Coolrado next week but in hindsight I might as well just use my dependable Rocky Mountain Mechanicals.. they fly tru to Field points


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## WCork

moonshiner said:


> nope an older hostage just goes up n down.. too late for a new rest.
> I was wanting to tune my bow for Fixed Broadheads for my trip to Coolrado next week but in hindsight I might as well just use my dependable Rocky Mountain Mechanicals.. they fly tru to Field points


Let me start by saying, Im no expert by any means, but you will need to be able to move your rest left and right to get your bh's hitting the same spot as your fp's. Don't know what rest you prefer, but even a whisker biscuit with left/right adjustment would do the trick. If you don't have the time for a new rest then you will either have to shoot a mechanical that needs no adjustment or move your sights for the fixed heads. I don't really recommend just moving the sights because your arrow flight may be pretty poor if they shoot way off without moving the sight. Just my thoughts. Good luck.


----------



## moonshiner

Yep sound like a good next year project .. was wanting to get a drop away anyhow ..maybe Santa will get me a good one . I really really did not want to start moving my pins around

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Claydoh

So 2 questions for anybody ...quick specs. Z28 28.5 DL, 51# DW, limbdriver rest.

I have some HT-2 .400 29" that are too stiff (BH left 6" @ 25yds), but the chart says barely, would a 125gn BH maybe soften that spine enough?

And I have some Victory HV's .400's 28" with offset blazers that I have got zero'd with my FP & BH's. The fletching on half the doz failed and got re fletched with blazers in a deep helical. The helicals are low and left. I would have thought the helicals would be "better" than the offset. I am almost thinking rest/cable contact as the Z28 has a narrow cable clearance. I rotate the cock vane to 1 o'clock but they are really close. Any reason why the helical would be off vs. the offset?


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## Don Schultz

With this method, one cannot conclude the groups are not merged because of a spine problem from INITIAL shooting results. Only if you cannot get them to merge AFTER being 100% sure you don't have a clearance problem, AND you have spent some time chasing the the FP group with the BH group would I conclude my arrows are to stiff or to soft. 

I generally find to stiff arrows to be less of a problem than to soft for a compound being shot with a mech' release. 

If (with 100% confidence there are no clearance issues) you can't get them to merge w' your present BH, I would try going to 125 grains and seeing what happens..

Regarding the helical/offset differences, IMO it may be all aerodynamic. Helical should generate more drag, steering and slowing the arrow sooner than offset vanes. So I'm not surprised they hit in a different place. In fact it is just luck that the Victory HVs w' the offset vanes group with the HT-2s. There is not a way I can see to purposely get 3 or 4 different arrow setups to group in the same spot, without some luck.


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## Tim/OH

Hey doc or anyone else.....did some bh tuning today and this was the results...

Grizztricks 2 were hitting about 4-5 to the left of my fp, well I move the rest to the right like you stated and I lost an arrow because it went to the right instead of left and it missed the target...so I moved the rest towards the left and it hit the bulleye.....then I resighted the fp and now I have both fp/bh hitting the same poi...

My question is why did I have to move the rest opposite from what you stated....Im a lefty too.


My setup
70# @ 29"
Easton lightspeed 400 cut to 27.5 fletched with blazers right helical
Limbdriver rest
100g grizztricks 2


Thanks,
Tim


----------



## Guest

Hey Doc, My BH are hitting about 2" low at 20yrds and 4" low at 30 yrds they are dead on left and right will moving the rest rest up fix this pretty easily. How much do I move it.


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## gbear

trick's only said:


> Hey Doc, My BH are hitting about 2" low at 20yrds and 4" low at 30 yrds they are dead on left and right will moving the rest rest up fix this pretty easily. How much do I move it.


Move rest up 1/16" or less at a time. small changes only. You can also move you D-loop or nock point down to accomplish the same thing, just twist the loop around the string 1 turn at a time. you may have to adjust your sights after you get the FP and BH hitting the same place.


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## Guest

FP are dead on right now and BH is fine left and right so by moving the rest up will that affect the FP.


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## gbear

trick's only said:


> FP are dead on right now and BH is fine left and right so by moving the rest up will that affect the FP.


It doesn't always, but it might. You are so close now POI change will be small anyway.


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## Guest

Thanks


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## bpbiggamehunter

I tried BH tunning on Sunday but it semmed like when i moved my sight left to bring the broadhead left the FP would also move left and i couldn't seem to get them to group together. Would this be a spine issue or something else? I'm shooting a Mathews Drenalin set at 65lbs with a 30 inch draw, the arrow is a CX Maxima 350 with a 100 grain MX-3 broadhead.Gonna give it another try before the weekend just looking for a little advice.


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## white.greg

bpbiggamehunter said:


> I tried BH tunning on Sunday but it semmed like when i moved my sight left to bring the broadhead left the FP would also move left and i couldn't seem to get them to group together. Would this be a spine issue or something else? I'm shooting a Mathews Drenalin set at 65lbs with a 30 inch draw, the arrow is a CX Maxima 350 with a 100 grain MX-3 broadhead.Gonna give it another try before the weekend just looking for a little advice.


Move your rest the opposite direction. The directions in this thread are not wrong, they just leave out the small percentage of bow / arrow / rest combo's that react the other way.


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## gbear

Did you spin test your BH first? A BH that doesn't spin true has been a source of headache for me before. What fletching are you using? Your arrow spine should be good. X2 for white.greg's advise.


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## bpbiggamehunter

Ok, i'll go out when i get time and try moving the rest the oppoosite diretion and see if it groups any better. I did spin test the arrows and they all spin true. Thanks white.greg and gbear


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## bpbiggamehunter

I use nap quickfletch and the vanes on them are 2'' twisters . Thanks


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## kdukes4

i just went out to try and tune my 100g MX3's with my 100g field points using the method doc described in the first page of this thread. I found that my BH were hitting 3" left at 20 yrds and a little low, i moved my rest up to match the vertical POI, but when i moved the rest to the right by 1/16" my BH moved a little to the right closer to the target, however, my FP took a giant leap to the right by 4". when i'd try to bring the BH closer to the target, the FP would move even further away? i'm a little dumbfounded as to where to go next... i started playing around with my spothogg hogg it pin sight left/right but can't figure this out. i feel like i'm all out of tune now. i'm shooting a bowtech allegiance 29" draw, PSE CF 300 radial x weave STL Hunters 4" vanes, whisker bisq


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## MJP

Amazing what a new string will do. Buzzcuts and FP are hitting dang near same spot every time. 
Kinda glad it stretched and split on me now.


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## OneLunG

kdukes4 said:


> i just went out to try and tune my 100g MX3's with my 100g field points using the method doc described in the first page of this thread. I found that my BH were hitting 3" left at 20 yrds and a little low, i moved my rest up to match the vertical POI, but when i moved the rest to the right by 1/16" my BH moved a little to the right closer to the target, however, my FP took a giant leap to the right by 4". when i'd try to bring the BH closer to the target, the FP would move even further away? i'm a little dumbfounded as to where to go next... i started playing around with my spothogg hogg it pin sight left/right but can't figure this out. i feel like i'm all out of tune now. i'm shooting a bowtech allegiance 29" draw, PSE CF 300 radial x weave STL Hunters 4" vanes, whisker bisq


I had the same problem with my Broadheads shooting 3 inches or so to the left with the PSE Radial X Weave STL Hunters 300s. I switched to different arrows and haven't had the same problems - I think it was a spine issue for me.


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## kdukes4

i went and started a walk back tuning session after work. got my center shot out to 40 yrds taken care of... now need to go back and re-sight in my pins... then i'm going to try to BH tune again. i'm hoping i was just out of tune to begin with...


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## DustyRx

bpbiggamehunter said:


> I tried BH tunning on Sunday but it semmed like when i moved my* sight *left to bring the broadhead left the FP would also move left and i couldn't seem to get them to group together. Would this be a spine issue or something else? I'm shooting a Mathews Drenalin set at 65lbs with a 30 inch draw, the arrow is a CX Maxima 350 with a 100 grain MX-3 broadhead.Gonna give it another try before the weekend just looking for a little advice.


Did you move your sight or rest? You move the rest when broadhead tuning.


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## jager61

Doc, wanted to thank you for the tutorial. I followed your example yesterday and successfully dialed in my bow/rest/sight and for the first time in 25 years, my 100 gr. Thunderheads now hit the target exactly where my 100 gr. Fieldpoints do! Always had to sight the bow in differently for each. Many thanks Bro!

Mike


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## snomopc

Good info Doc. Texas Dall looks good too. Thanks for the help.


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## snomopc

OK I'm working through this process and my BH are hitting with my FP. My concern is that my nock point is way low after grouping BH with FP. Is that going to work? You can see that the nock point is 1/4 low or better. This was all done at 15 yards. I'm now trying different distances.Thank you for the help. Sincerely Tim


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## WVHunter63

Well after shooting my BH's and not impacting the same as FP's I decided to research as to what to do. Found this thread and got to admit it all sounded good but was adamant cause as everyone else FP's are deadon and everything seemed fine so needless to say I didnt want to touch my rest and take a chance on messing it all up. So, after reading ALL 25 pages and thoroughly answering ALL of my questions along the way I set out to adjust BH's to impact with FP's per Doc's instruction. Got to admit that as I began seemed as if things were just going to not get there because FP's kept moving away from BH's but BH's were moving towards the FP's ever so slightly. So I kept faith in the process and disciplined myself to not settle until perfect. Well as it turned out the BH's did in fact catch up to the FP's, then all I had to do was adjust sight to bring POI back onto the target. Cant describe how I felt once it all came together, total confidence I guess and to be honest my groups are now tighter than they were before! I am a slow methodical guy so I did little adjustments at a time until I got it done. Initially I had to move my saddle on my rest (RipCord Code Red) out as I could not move rest any further account where the saddle was in relation to the rest, once I moved the saddle I was then able to make the necessary adjustments with plenty of room to do so although I didnt need all that much as initially I only had a few inches of difference with POI. I started at 20 yards, once done shot at 30 and 40 spot on! I want to thank Doc and everyone else here on AT! I have been shooting since late 80s and although I had a long hiatus from archery for a spell, I am to me a better archer in many ways than I used to be. Always room for advancement, and the fact that I enjoy it more so now than I did then as well. So bottom line for those that are worried...DO IT! You owe it to yourself and to the animal you are going to put an arrow into! Archery has been in my home state of KY since early September, and in Ohio and WV where I also hunt for a few days and it has been killing me not to go out to hunt but I just couldn't do it until I knew I have done all I can do to eliminate as much error on my behalf. So will be heading out in a few day, perhaps tomorrow if work allows me to do so, with total confidence in my equipment! Thanks once again!


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## Xmaster

Doc, I looked at your thread a couple of years back and thought it was very good but never had to use your method. I would always bare shaft tune my bow, shoot field tips for several weeks and then put on broadheads. they would be a little off so i would just re-sight for the POI of the broadheads and everything would be good. 

this past week i had a problem pop up that my broadheads started shooting to the left. lots of adjustment to the sight and still shooting left. so i quit hunting and decided to just work on the problem when I got back home. ( shooting broadheads at the camp into a virgin block of Styrofoam was killing me lol) I thought it might be that the hole in my whisker biscuit was so large. so when i got home i put on field points and they were just a little left so i adjusted the sight. 

yesterday i brought bow to archery shop. they said biscuit hole was fine. checked everything and everything was perfect except it looked like sight was way left. so we shoot field points...shoots a little right. .....................................................

so to make a long story short. he moved my rest slightly in the direction the broad head was off. so it was left, he moved rest to left. and got the field point and broadhead shooting in same spot.(still sight is to left of historical location) so this is opposite of your method, your broadhead was left and you moved the rest to the right. My question is, because you are left handed, would you do the opposite for left and right hits if you are right handed? I just called the pro and he verified that he followed the broadhead with the rest. it was left so he moved it slightly left. 

Thanks 

X


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## Xmaster

bumped it to see if subscription would turn on.


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## sweetnovember

Went out tonight and shot broadheads. It got dark before I could make any adjustments, but at 25 yards I am hitting about 3 or 4 inches high and an inch and a half to the right of my FP. The problem is I only had 1/16" to move my rest down. Do I need to adjust my D-loop now if that wasn't enough adjustment?


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## Whackednstacked

If you BH tune does that eliminate the need for walkback tuning or bareshaft tuning or should you do that before you start


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## HCA Iron Mace

I BH tune my bows right out of the package which is very easy if you understand the basics of tuning!!! With that being said, I just replaced my string and cables the other day and then went right to BH tuning (little windy but what the heck).. I shoot a couple of rounds with FP just to get my grouping and to make sure there was no peep rotation. I then put the Muzzy's on and take a shot which is hitting 4"low and about 4" left of the FP groups!!! I move the rest up a touch and got them hitting at the same height but still left.. Now I move the rest to the right a touch and nothing (both groups moved to the right the same). I keep going to the right with the rest and still the same but the groups are opening up with bad arrow flight, so I go back to first setting (this bow has always been easy to BH tune). Getting a little on edge, I rechecked the specs on the bow and all is fine. I then said hell with it and moved the rest to the left a touch and shoot. The darn BH groups stayed the same but the FP groups moved over to the BH (what the heck). Dumb founded I step back to 40yrd (started at 20yrds and then moved the sight) I shoot both groups and the Bh was hitting a touch low. Moved the rest up a touch and then got both hitting the same!!! Went back to 20yrds and found that both groups are still the same (good to go)!!!! Long winded I know, But I wanted to relay my story to those that are having some trouble getting those last couple of inches to come together!! I guess the point of this story is if all else fails, try going in the other way with the rest..


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## gbear

Whackednstacked said:


> If you BH tune does that eliminate the need for walkback tuning or bareshaft tuning or should you do that before you start


I like this thread for a good place to start. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...light=walkback
I find this modified walkback tune quick and user friendly. 
When using this method i find that usually only minor adjustments are required of the d-loop when i shot through paper, then no adjustment at all to get muzzys, snypers, slick tricks, F15s and fp's to hit the same poi.
You can certainly BH tune only but it's easy to shoot around the target if you don't have a defined baseline.


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## bnicholopoulos

I am very new to bow hunting and have some questions about Broadhead tuning. Why is it that you move the rest to get the arrow to hit in the correct spot and not the sight. I have an issue where my fixed heads drop lower then my field points but my mechanical meat seekers do not have the issue. Now if I move the rest around to fix the flight of the fixed head will that mess up my field points and mechanical heads. If it does make them shoot in a different location do I have to keep moving my rest around for each type, such as in this position for broadheads and move back to old position for field point.

Sorry for all the noob questions just trying to figure out how to get my fixed broadheads to hot like my field points as it is my first year bow hunting.

Brandon


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## HCA Iron Mace

Brandon, you move your rest so that the arrow is setting in proper placement on the rest before the arrow leaves the bow!!! (if the tip of your arrow was pointed left before the arrow leaves the rest then the arrow will hit to the left!!! Now Field points and some mech. broadheads are not as affected as much as fixed blade broadheads because the vanes stear the arrow from the back, but fixed blade heads will stear the arrow from the front as well as the vanes on the back.. So we use this to our advantage, by moving the rest the FP and BH will start to move in the same direction but the BH will move a little more then the FP. You said your BH are hitting lower then your FP?? Well let try this, move your rest down a touch (and I mean just a touch) then shoot your FP and BH at 20yrds. Don't worry where the arrows hit on the target just worry what the two groups look like!! IF you have done this you should have seen that all of your arrows are no hitting lower then before but the BH are a little closer to your FP but maybe still low!!! Move the rest down a touch more and shoot again. Your arrows should be hitting a little lower but your BH should be with your FP now...... Yea,,,, Now move your sight to get your arrows hitting the your mark!!! Now move out 30yrds and make sure they are still hitting together!! Hope that helps


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## ArkansasMystic

I've tried searching this thread and haven't found an answer. For a left handed shooter, are the adjustments the same right / left? I tried unsuccessfully to get broad heads to fly with filed tips, they continue to hit about six inches left even after moving my rest about 1/2".


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## HCA Iron Mace

ArkansasMystic said:


> I've tried searching this thread and haven't found an answer. For a left handed shooter, are the adjustments the same right / left? I tried unsuccessfully to get broad heads to fly with filed tips, they continue to hit about six inches left even after moving my rest about 1/2".


The only diffrence would be the spine issues!!! You would still make the adjustments the same but if it is a spine issue for left handed bows (such as hitting left with a left handed bow) could a weak spine (or to much flexing)!!!! Hitting left for right handed bows could be a stiff spine!!!!

I would try (if you are 100% sure there is no contact) backing down your draw weight!!!!


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## bnicholopoulos

HCA Iron Mace said:


> Brandon, you move your rest so that the arrow is setting in proper placement on the rest before the arrow leaves the bow!!! (if the tip of your arrow was pointed left before the arrow leaves the rest then the arrow will hit to the left!!! Now Field points and some mech. broadheads are not as affected as much as fixed blade broadheads because the vanes stear the arrow from the back, but fixed blade heads will stear the arrow from the front as well as the vanes on the back.. So we use this to our advantage, by moving the rest the FP and BH will start to move in the same direction but the BH will move a little more then the FP. You said your BH are hitting lower then your FP?? Well let try this, move your rest down a touch (and I mean just a touch) then shoot your FP and BH at 20yrds. Don't worry where the arrows hit on the target just worry what the two groups look like!! IF you have done this you should have seen that all of your arrows are no hitting lower then before but the BH are a little closer to your FP but maybe still low!!! Move the rest down a touch more and shoot again. Your arrows should be hitting a little lower but your BH should be with your FP now...... Yea,,,, Now move your sight to get your arrows hitting the your mark!!! Now move out 30yrds and make sure they are still hitting together!! Hope that helps


Just wondering why I would not move the rest up if my broadhead is hitting low. Now does this mean my rest is not level with my knock point on the string, or is it that you just have to adjust for broadheads even if the rest is level.


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## HCA Iron Mace

bnicholopoulos said:


> Just wondering why I would not move the rest up if my broadhead is hitting low. Now does this mean my rest is not level with my knock point on the string, or is it that you just have to adjust for broadheads even if the rest is level.


Bnicholopoulos, I'm sorry I got reversed!!! you do move the rest up if you are hitting low!!!!!!! I was thinking of hitting high even when I knew you said low!!!! Yes and no for your question, It could mean that your rest is not level with your knocking point while the bow is at brace or it could me that the you don't have level knock travel!!! As you release the knocking point is traveling up which would cause your arrow to not be level on release!!!!


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## bnicholopoulos

HCA Iron Mace said:


> Bnicholopoulos, I'm sorry I got reversed!!! you do move the rest up if you are hitting low!!!!!!! I was thinking of hitting high even when I knew you said low!!!! Yes and no for your question, It could mean that your rest is not level with your knocking point while the bow is at brace or it could me that the you don't have level knock travel!!! As you release the knocking point is traveling up which would cause your arrow to not be level on release!!!!


Ok so move the rest up just a bit. Now I know the bow was paper tested and passed when I got it. I might try putting the broadheads on a different arrow to see if that makes a difference before I move the rest. But moving the rest up will not affect the flight of the field point as much as it will the broad head. 

Thanks for all the help so far and helping me out with all my noob questions.

Brandon


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## HCA Iron Mace

bnicholopoulos said:


> Ok so move the rest up just a bit. Now I know the bow was paper tested and passed when I got it. I might try putting the broadheads on a different arrow to see if that makes a difference before I move the rest. But moving the rest up will not affect the flight of the field point as much as it will the broad head.
> 
> Thanks for all the help so far and helping me out with all my noob questions.
> 
> Brandon


Just remeber that paper tune is just a snap shot of the arrow coming out of your bow which is a good starting point, but that is all that it is (a starting point) The Broadhead will tell you what really is going on...


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## sweetnovember

I've been trying to tune my ST's to my field points. Elevation is perfect. I cannot for the life of me get them closer than 4 or 5" side to side. At 20 yards they are only about an inch an a half apart. At 30 yards they are more like 4" No matter what adjustment I make I just can't get them any better. Here's the kicker. In theory the BH should have more movement in the rest adjustment than the FP, right? When I move my rest I get more movement towards the BH than the other way around. My BH is hitting dead on no matter what distance I shoot at. An suggestions? I'm very close to giving up and sticking with mechanicals.


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## Tommy83

You may want to check the cam lean on your bow. What kind of bow are you shooting? Sometimes cam lean can mess things up bigtime and things will be wrong no matter what you do with your rest. Not saying that's the answer... but it's something to check. Cam timing too...



sweetnovember said:


> I've been trying to tune my ST's to my field points. Elevation is perfect. I cannot for the life of me get them closer than 4 or 5" side to side. At 20 yards they are only about an inch an a half apart. At 30 yards they are more like 4" No matter what adjustment I make I just can't get them any better. Here's the kicker. In theory the BH should have more movement in the rest adjustment than the FP, right? When I move my rest I get more movement towards the BH than the other way around. My BH is hitting dead on no matter what distance I shoot at. An suggestions? I'm very close to giving up and sticking with mechanicals.


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## sweetnovember

Shooting a Z7. About 67lbs, 29" draw, 340 Easton FMJ cut to 29 1/4"


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## skinner2

Ok. Need some advice here on getting my bow tuned. I have been trying to get 100 grain slick trick mags to hit with my field points. I got the elevation close but can't get my fieldpoints and broadheads closer than about 2.5" at 20 yards. Elite hunter 29" draw 64# cx maxima hunter 350 at 28.5" with blazer vanes and 100 grain head. Using a Limbdriver pro v rest and don't think I have any contact issues. I tried moving my rest both directions and no luck getting them to hit together. Any suggestions


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## Whackednstacked

Just wanted to say this is a great thread, i put my strykers on yesterday and within minutes, i had them hitting with my fieldpoints, after a few more minor tweaks, im dead nuts with them out to 50 yds. Feels good to be able to launch a field tip and a broadhead from 50 and have them slap together!!


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## bnicholopoulos

New question I went to tune my bow for broadheads and noticed my capture rest was all the way up so I could not move the rest up to accommodate my broadheads dropping low. I figure I will get a different rest now that is more adjustable looking at the trophy ridge revolution or the Apache. Now my question is it hard to tune a new rest. I do not know much about paper tuning. Should I just shoot at the target and get my arrow to hit where I was aiming with my old rest. Any help here would be great.


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## gbear

bnicholopoulos said:


> New question I went to tune my bow for broadheads and noticed my capture rest was all the way up so I could not move the rest up to accommodate my broadheads dropping low. I figure I will get a different rest now that is more adjustable looking at the trophy ridge revolution or the Apache. Now my question is it hard to tune a new rest. I do not know much about paper tuning. Should I just shoot at the target and get my arrow to hit where I was aiming with my old rest. Any help here would be great.


Welcome to AT.
I like this thread for a good place to start. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...light=walkback
I find this modified walkback tune quick and user friendly. 

I also recommend you start at the beginning of this thread with a note book and a cup of coffee. When you finish you will have a couple pages of good tuning/bh tuning info and a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish. Also check out the bow tuning forum.


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## BearSuitGuy

quick question on broadhead tuning. I was going to do this but I shot one broadhead into a 3d style bear and it took me forever to dig out. I am right on point with field points but now nervous about throwing my broad heads off during the hunt. At 40 bucks for 3 heads i'm not about to lose them in targets. I don't want to "hope" they fly the same.


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## Tommy83

BearSuitGuy said:


> quick question on broadhead tuning. I was going to do this but I shot one broadhead into a 3d style bear and it took me forever to dig out. I am right on point with field points but now nervous about throwing my broad heads off during the hunt. At 40 bucks for 3 heads i'm not about to lose them in targets. I don't want to "hope" they fly the same.


You couldn't just pull it back out? My broadheads cut their way out as you pull. If you shoot stubborn targets I always recommend http://www.ddarchery.com. I have one and I'll never shoot without it. I shoot the broadheads I hunt with - I just sharpen up the blades before going out the hunt. That way I know that I KNOW where that arrow is going to land...


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## BearSuitGuy

i'll give it another go. felt like i was going to break the arrow pulling, so I stopped and dug it out.


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## Tommy83

Yeah some of those 3d targets can be a pain.


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## BearSuitGuy

think I just had a stubborn shot on the old bear at the range. Went again today to tune in the broadhead and they came out easier than the field points. go figure. there is a lion target at the range now. awesome! using the g5 montecs


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## buffalo82

*new bow tuning*

Hello All,

I have spent the last two days trying to tune my bow to group 100 grain thunderheads with my field points. I have finally gotten the broadheads to group well at 40 yards but they continue to group 2 inches low and 2 inches right of my field points. I can live with that difference but does that indicate that I have poor arrow flight and won't get the penetration power that I want?

Thaks for the help

Ben


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## buffalo82

upon looking at a ruler I would say they are 3 inches left right and low


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## Komi

OK needing some help... Shooting 62# 28"dl with 27 maxima hunter 350 100 gr ST mag am getting no contact but no matter what I do still seem to hit about 1-3" right the only way I can get to move left is by moving site.... Any suggestions ???


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## Doc

Do you shoot right or left-handed?


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## Hangac1093

Great Thread!


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## drake251980

Killer info in this thread alot of good healping guys!!!


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## SEOBowhntr

Back to the top for guys setting up new bows, because it IS that good of a thread!!! :thumb:


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## timberjak

subd


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## timberjak

this is a great tool to have on hand


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## hoyt3

it needs to be stickied permenantly


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## bearleft

It's almost turkey season, don't hope you kill one! Tune those broadheads!


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## tcarter86

this is great information, im definitly going to print this out and keep handy, this information and the modified french tuning in nuts and bolts is the best information i have read yet.


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## Hoytchick4ever

ttt to keep track of thread


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## waylonb19

Yeah great thread to have handy.


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## baskarcher

Posting so I can find this again. Good stuff


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## Timinator

SOB! I just read this whole thread! Doc and other's thanks. 

So was the guy right back 10 or so pages ago, if the rest is dropping too soon before the balance point of the arrow has reached it, that's the cause of the adjustments and tuning to be backwards? If that is true, should we be adjusting the speed of the drop of the rest though first before we continue to BH tune, or is it OK to continue to tune as long as you can get both FT/BH's on top of each other? Does that lead to other problems? Thanks for the rainy day read.


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## Timinator

FWIW, I had to drop to a 340 Flatline from a 400 to get the BH and FT's to group. My broadheads were always about 3-4" left. I moved the rest till the fletching was touching the riser and still couldn't get them together. I moved it back to the original position and tried out a 340 spline instead and with just one adjustment I had the BH and FT's stacking. I will fiine tune at 40 yards tomorrow, I was starting to get tired.

If you look at my draw length and poundage below, I'm pretty well suppose to be a 400 spline, but dropping to a 340 really healped make the tuning possible. I checked for contact and spun tested every arrow (good thing too, I had a bad one I didn't now about).


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## mtvdklr

Not sure what to set up at? I sight my pins in at 40 yds for a good spread. So do i tune at that distance or 25 like he did. An do yall have ur pins as close as possible to the bow?


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## saltwell

marked


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## KevinNY

I used this technique making very small adjustments at a time, over the last couple of days, not rushing it. I can now blow Slicktrick Mags out at 305fps and cut vanes off the FP I shoot first. Huge confidence boost to know everything is flying so well, look out bears in 1 month!


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## Daniel Boone

KevinNY said:


> I used this technique making very small adjustments at a time, over the last couple of days, not rushing it. I can now blow Slicktrick Mags out at 305fps and cut vanes off the FP I shoot first. Huge confidence boost to know everything is flying so well, look out bears in 1 month!


It works and you just got to be patient.
DB


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## Alpha Burnt

Bump


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## buckeye 12 ring

marked


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## NCBowhunter84

What happened to the stickie for this?


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## Claydoh

Moved to broadhead subsection. I learned soooo much from this thread. Even my 3D bow is tuned for fixed blade flight.


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## STKA

Timinator said:


> If you look at my draw length and poundage below, I'm pretty well suppose to be a 400 spline, but dropping to a 340 really healped make the tuning possible. I checked for contact and spun tested every arrow (good thing too, I had a bad one I didn't now about).


It's not just you. I shoot a Z7 28"@65lbs and I had to go to a 340 spine as well. The guy at my local bow shop shoots the same bow I do and shoots 400's, I don't understand it but it was necessary for me too. The spine charts are just general references and each bow is slightly different.


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## flynh97

awesome thread. Some really good info thanks


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## Doc

Very happy to see many people successfully completing this and other archers chiming in to help others. :thumb:
It's that time of year fellas....get 'em tuned so you can get 'em on the ground:archer:


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## kynknwl

My new broadheads were giving me heck until I read this! Thanks for the help! It worked well....


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## Doc

kynknwl said:


> My new broadheads were giving me heck until I read this! Thanks for the help! It worked well....
> 
> View attachment 1451575


Great shot:thumb:
Good luck this season


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## SaskArcher10

Hey guys, struggling a little bit with this, my left to right is good(although I haven't tested out to great distances) but my broadheads are hitting about 5" low at 20 yards. In order for me to get the broadheads and field points having the same POI, I have to move my rest up to the point that when my arrow is nocked on the string, it is sitting on the rest at an upwards angle. Somehow this just seems wrong to me. Does anyone have any ideas what my issue might be?


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## Doc

SaskArcher10 said:


> Hey guys, struggling a little bit with this, my left to right is good(although I haven't tested out to great distances) but my broadheads are hitting about 5" low at 20 yards. In order for me to get the broadheads and field points having the same POI, I have to move my rest up to the point that when my arrow is nocked on the string, it is sitting on the rest at an upwards angle. Somehow this just seems wrong to me. Does anyone have any ideas what my issue might be?


What kind of rest are you using?


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## SaskArcher10

I'm shooting with an octane hostage pro. Do you think that could be part of my problem? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## waldguy

Helpful thread for sure. I'll add my 2 cents, just for reinforcement - myself as much as anyone.

ALWAYS, always, always be sure the arrows are straight and the broadheads deadnuts straight, carbon arrows or not. Fletching clearance is the next always.

If using a drop-away rest and moving the reverse direction helps to correct the problem, mess with the rest a little. Rotate it a little forwards or back; change the string tension a bit on the rest.

The above two things made all the difference for me (QAD hunter rest). I was on the edge of frustrated for a couple of sessions!!!

Muzzys are ready to do some damage Sept 1. Thanks all.


----------



## Doc

SaskArcher10 said:


> Hey guys, struggling a little bit with this, my left to right is good(although I haven't tested out to great distances) but my broadheads are hitting about 5" low at 20 yards. In order for me to get the broadheads and field points having the same POI, I have to move my rest up to the point that when my arrow is nocked on the string, it is sitting on the rest at an upwards angle. Somehow this just seems wrong to me. Does anyone have any ideas what my issue might be?


Couple things to check:
1) Cam timing
2) Contact/clearance issue
3) Spin test your broadheads


----------



## SaskArcher10

Okay, that sounds like a good place to start. I've checked for clearance issues earlier in the summer when I first started, but I'll do that again. How do I check my cam timing?


----------



## jwm6

Thanks Doc and everyone!
I never thought about adding the length of my broadhead when calculation spine, well mine were under spined.
.340 FMJ
29-3/4"
70#
Cranked my bow down 1.5 turns and reset my arrow rest and could see much better flight in arrows. Broad heads are still hitting left of field points, made a very small move right with rest and made thing worse.
Next I plan to crank the bow down another .5 turn and start over with original rest position.
Funny thing is when I crank my bow poundage down by 1.5 turns, the arrow groups moved up?


----------



## evasiveone

jwm6 said:


> Thanks Doc and everyone!
> I never thought about adding the length of my broadhead when calculation spine, well mine were under spined.
> .340 FMJ
> 29-3/4"
> 70#
> Cranked my bow down 1.5 turns and reset my arrow rest and could see much better flight in arrows. *Broad heads are still hitting left of field points, made a very small move right with rest and made thing worse.*
> Next I plan to crank the bow down another .5 turn and start over with original rest position.
> Funny thing is when I crank my bow poundage down by 1.5 turns, the arrow groups moved up?


Try moving your rest just a small amount to the left and see if this will not bring them together.


----------



## Pokerface

Been searching an hour for a thread just like this one. Great thread. I had some old eastmons that shot just fine but failed my plywood broad head test. (broke) Some new Maniacs drop right.


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## quercus

Would moving the nock point on the bowstring itself be like moving the rest up or down? The reason I ask is that my rest is a drop away, and once set can't really be adjusted up or down.


----------



## STKA

quercus said:


> Would moving the nock point on the bowstring itself be like moving the rest up or down? The reason I ask is that my rest is a drop away, and once set can't really be adjusted up or down.


What type of rest? It should be adjustable, have a picture.


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## mackofalltrades

Hey guys...I tried this last night and was getting better groups with my BH's (100gr. thunderheads).

However, I am still about 3-4 inches left of my FP's and I can't move my rest any further. If I do, by BH will be in contact with the riser. 

Sounds like I have another issue right? I would hate to take the bow to the shop right before the season opens (especially because my FP's were grouping nicely)...

I don't have exact specs right now, but I am shooting a diamond nitrous, 60#, 29.5" draw (which I would love to shorten), ICS bowhunters with a 400 spine and offset blazers, 100 gr. heads and a hostage rest. 

Any ideas? I think dont think I have clearance issues, but who knows. I'm admittedly not an expert...


----------



## jwm6

evasiveone said:


> Try moving your rest just a small amount to the left and see if this will not bring them together.


Thanks, I am going to give this a try tonight and see if it works!


----------



## Doc

mackofalltrades said:


> Hey guys...I tried this last night and was getting better groups with my BH's (100gr. thunderheads).
> 
> However, I am still about 3-4 inches left of my FP's and I can't move my rest any further. If I do, by BH will be in contact with the riser.
> 
> Sounds like I have another issue right? I would hate to take the bow to the shop right before the season opens (especially because my FP's were grouping nicely)...
> 
> I don't have exact specs right now, but I am shooting a diamond nitrous, 60#, 29.5" draw (which I would love to shorten), ICS bowhunters with a 400 spine and offset blazers, 100 gr. heads and a hostage rest.
> 
> Any ideas? I think dont think I have clearance issues, but who knows. I'm admittedly not an expert...


I have not kept up on all the Diamond bows, but it sounds like it may be a single cam with a idler wheel string feed issue. You want the string to feed straight into the idler wheel string track at full draw. You adjust by adding twists to either side of the yoke cable. This is a common single cam issue.


----------



## bawls

Set your idler wheel lean at static by twisting the yokes then check it at full draw. You may need to tweak a little more. If you can get it to hit same poi with a bare shaft as it does with field points then you should be spot on with broadheads. One of your problems may very well be the thunderheads though. I haven't had great results with their flight once the speeds start to get up there. Using the method stated above I got a buddies outlaw shooting bullet holes with a bare shaft at 15 ft and same poi as his field points at 20 yds. It will stack field points and fixed blades out to 60 all day.


----------



## quercus

STKA said:


> What type of rest? It should be adjustable, have a picture.



It is an old Scout Mountain Equiptment, SME, i think it is also sold as Vital Bow Gear. After looking, the rest can be adjusted. I'll have to try the information this thread provided. In the past I've always just moved my pins to accomodate the difference in bh flight. See, ya learn something new everyday...


----------



## bowhuntermitch

mackofalltrades said:


> Hey guys...I tried this last night and was getting better groups with my BH's (100gr. thunderheads).
> 
> However, I am still about 3-4 inches left of my FP's and I can't move my rest any further. If I do, by BH will be in contact with the riser.
> 
> Sounds like I have another issue right? I would hate to take the bow to the shop right before the season opens (especially because my FP's were grouping nicely)...
> 
> I don't have exact specs right now, but I am shooting a diamond nitrous, 60#, 29.5" draw (which I would love to shorten), ICS bowhunters with a 400 spine and offset blazers, 100 gr. heads and a hostage rest.
> 
> Any ideas? I think dont think I have clearance issues, but who knows. I'm admittedly not an expert...


Your Nitrous should flat out stack arrows. I shot one for 2 years and it shot thunderheads great out to 80 yards. When is your rest coming up to "full launch?" Last 3 inches? .5 inches? 
Does your draw length fit you well? A broadhead that shoots left usually results in a right tear in paper. How do you yokes look? It's a really simple bow to tune for broadheads.


----------



## mackofalltrades

Wow...thanks for the responses!

If I have an idler wheel or cable issue, I guess I need to go to see a bow tech. I wouldn't even begin to try messing with that on my own (I don't have a press either...). I would be too afraid of making it worse. The strings and cables are 3 seasons old (and are OEM), so maybe there is some stretch causing the issue? 

bowhuntermitch, I have a hostage rest...its not a dropaway.

Anyone know a good bow tech in Northern NJ?


----------



## mackofalltrades

bowhuntermitch said:


> Does your draw length fit you well?


Does it fit me well? You are asking a guy who can group well at 30 yards, but doesn't do that well after that (lack of practice beyond 30 is part of it...I don't have the space). That being said, as I learn more, it seems that there is a high likelihood my draw length is too long. I am 5'11" with an average body type (yeah, I know how abstract that sounds). It seems that I could really shorten the DL, but I would want someone with a little more knowledge to tell me that before I go messing with anything.


----------



## bowhuntermitch

mackofalltrades said:


> Does it fit me well? You are asking a guy who can group well at 30 yards, but doesn't do that well after that (lack of practice beyond 30 is part of it...I don't have the space). That being said, as I learn more, it seems that there is a high likelihood my draw length is too long. I am 5'11" with an average body type (yeah, I know how abstract that sounds). It seems that I could really shorten the DL, but I would want someone with a little more knowledge to tell me that before I go messing with anything.


I would guess that the draw length would have something to do with it, as well as the old strings and cables. I'm 6'2 (have a 78" wingspan) and shoot a 29" DL. 
If you cant get it tuned, get some new strings on it and bring it to a well known pro shop. They'll get ya shooting.


----------



## Masheen76

I've been methodically working this system for a while now and the best I could get was my broadheads about 3 inches low of my FPs. My left right is perfect. I found if I moved my rest up to chase my FPs, the distance between them and my BHs got worse. My groups respectively are good, just 3 inches apart. With my hunting season looming I opted to sight in for my BHs and leave it be. I had considered trying to move my rest down to try and see if that helps, but I've run out of time I think.
My setup is a Hoyt AM 32 29/60# shooting CE maxima hunter 350s with 100 grain shuttle Ts.


----------



## Doc

Masheen76 said:


> I've been methodically working this system for a while now and the best I could get was my broadheads about 3 inches low of my FPs. My left right is perfect. I found if I moved my rest up to chase my FPs, the distance between them and my BHs got worse. My groups respectively are good, just 3 inches apart. With my hunting season looming I opted to sight in for my BHs and leave it be. I had considered trying to move my rest down to try and see if that helps, but I've run out of time I think.
> My setup is a Hoyt AM 32 29/60# shooting CE maxima hunter 350s with 100 grain shuttle Ts.


What kind of rest do you have? It almost sounds like you are using a drop away rest and have a timing issue where it's falling too soon.


----------



## Masheen76

I have a trophy taker smackdown pro


----------



## Doc

Masheen76 said:


> I have a trophy taker smackdown pro


Try adjusting the rest timing so it doesn't fall as soon/fast...very slight adjustment.


----------



## waldguy

Doc said:


> Try adjusting the rest timing so it doesn't fall as soon/fast...very slight adjustment.


Just a question for Doc the expert here: Is it also possible that the rest is not dropping fast enough and that the nocking point needs moving rather than the rest? It could possibly be flipping the tail up for a lower flight if the clearance isn't quite there?


----------



## Doc

waldguy said:


> Just a question for Doc the expert here: Is it also possible that the rest is not dropping fast enough and that the nocking point needs moving rather than the rest? It could possibly be flipping the tail up for a lower flight if the clearance isn't quite there?


The only thing that I'm an expert in is making the mother-in-law mad

Adjusting the rest up and down will have the same effect (only inverse) as moving the nock point. These drop away rests are critical to time with the more aggressive (faster) cams. The arrow must be on the launcher long enough to stabilize the arrow...the more issue with nock travel there is on the power stroke, the more this is critical.


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## HuntinFreak

I know that this goes against the grain, but I have never had any luck chasing the fieldpoints with broadheads using a containment type of rest. ie.. moving the rest towards the fieldpoints impact. You can try it till the cows come home and it doesn't work (for me). As soon as you start chasing the broadheads with your fieldpoints (moving the rest towards the broadheads impact) they will start coming together and I can usually get the fieldpoints to pass the broadheads (impact on the other side and then bring them back). Does this make any sense? To me it doesn't but until you try it you will always run into the riser or run out of room to the left with your rest and the impacts keep getting farther apart. Drop away rest on the other hand seem to tune in the conventional way. This is just my experience and works for me consistently bow after bow. Could be the way I shoot maybe, I don't know. That said, Mack, I would move my rest a 1/16" left at a time and watch fp's and bh's come together.  With a hostage rest I would almost guarantee this to work.


mackofalltrades said:


> Hey guys...I tried this last night and was getting better groups with my BH's (100gr. thunderheads).
> 
> However, I am still about 3-4 inches left of my FP's and I can't move my rest any further. If I do, by BH will be in contact with the riser.
> 
> Sounds like I have another issue right? I would hate to take the bow to the shop right before the season opens (especially because my FP's were grouping nicely)...
> 
> I don't have exact specs right now, but I am shooting a diamond nitrous, 60#, 29.5" draw (which I would love to shorten), ICS bowhunters with a 400 spine and offset blazers, 100 gr. heads and a hostage rest.
> 
> Any ideas? I think dont think I have clearance issues, but who knows. I'm admittedly not an expert...


----------



## kk1340

Worked on tuning this evening.fps were hitting dead on but bh were 2 inches left.moved rest right a little and bh were dead on but Fp moved over to right. Lefty shooter. What to do now. Height is perfect. Thanks keith


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## Kris87

HuntinFreak said:


> Drop away rest on the other hand seem to tune in the conventional way.


I have concluded that they must all vary. Because with limbdriver pro-v's on both my Maxxis 31 setup identically, conventional method didn't work. I moved it opposite and got mine to tune. That's why I've never understood this (Doc's) method, which is the same as you see on the Easton broadhead tuning chart everywhere. It contradicts what you would do to paper tune and bareshaft tune. 

Here's what I always think...A left nock tear normally means BH will impact right. If you fix that through paper, then you move the rest right. According to BH tuning, you move the rest left. I always try and fix the arrow coming out of the bow straight first.


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## HuntinFreak

Kris87 said:


> I have concluded that they must all vary. Because with limbdriver pro-v's on both my Maxxis 31 setup identically, conventional method didn't work. I moved it opposite and got mine to tune. That's why I've never understood this (Doc's) method, which is the same as you see on the Easton broadhead tuning chart everywhere. It contradicts what you would do to paper tune and bareshaft tune.
> 
> Here's what I always think...A left nock tear normally means BH will impact right. If you fix that through paper, then you move the rest right. According to BH tuning, you move the rest left. I always try and fix the arrow coming out of the bow straight first.


Interesting!


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## Okccj

Setup: bowtech guardian, 63#, 28.5", qad ultra-rest hunter, GT expedition hunter 55-75, muzzy mx-3 100 gr, blazer vanes. 

I tried this process, but when I moved my rest to the right on my initial adjustment it moved my field points to the right as well. Now my BH is hitting center, but FPs are about 6 inches right. Help!


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## HuntinFreak

Need more info. What were the initial impacts like, is six inches right an improvement? I personally think you should just pay careful attention to where the fp's and bh's hit (keep notes if you have to), look for a trend in one direction and continue or reverse the direction for the opposite trend. This is why a rest with calibrations is so critical and if I remember correct the hunter has windage calibrations but not elevation.


Okccj said:


> Setup: bowtech guardian, 63#, 28.5", qad ultra-rest hunter, GT expedition hunter 55-75, muzzy mx-3 100 gr, blazer vanes.
> 
> I tried this process, but when I moved my rest to the right on my initial adjustment it moved my field points to the right as well. Now my BH is hitting center, but FPs are about 6 inches right. Help!


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## mackofalltrades

Just a quick follow up. It appears that I changed my anchor point from the tip of my nose to my cheek in order to be able to look through my glasses. I cannot see through the lens sometimes if my glasses slip even an inch. Anchor moved right, arrows flew left.

I didn't even realize I did it as I dialed in my rest slowly so my rest matched my POI. Then I switched to BH's. Oops...

Thanks for all the help.


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## blues2

Subscribed for reference


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## STKA

Has anyone had experience with trying to broadhead tune with a slight (very slight) idler lean. I can't get my BH's closer than about 2" at 30yds. Broadheads are hitting right. I'm guessing the slight lean is causing my problem. I don't have a press I can use and the bow shop is buried with the season opening next Monday. I'm going to shoot grim reapers anyway but wanted to get tuned right regardless. It's also very possible I'm over spined and may try to bump up my weight today. How much weight (approximately) would I have to add to the front of the arrow to bring down the spine enough, in case I can find some weights on the way home.

Specs are:

Z7 (base) [email protected]"
27.5" CE Maxima 350's
100grain FP's, Montacs, and GR WTS's

Thanks for any insight you can offer. I was shooting montacs into the same hole at 30yds so I must be close.


----------



## Bowhuntinaddict

STKA said:


> Has anyone had experience with trying to broadhead tune with a slight (very slight) idler lean. I can't get my BH's closer than about 2" at 30yds. Broadheads are hitting right. I'm guessing the slight lean is causing my problem. I don't have a press I can use and the bow shop is buried with the season opening next Monday. I'm going to shoot grim reapers anyway but wanted to get tuned right regardless. It's also very possible I'm over spined and may try to bump up my weight today. How much weight (approximately) would I have to add to the front of the arrow to bring down the spine enough, in case I can find some weights on the way home.
> 
> Specs are:
> 
> Z7 (base) [email protected]"
> 27.5" CE Maxima 350's
> 100grain FP's, Montacs, and GR WTS's
> 
> Thanks for any insight you can offer. I was shooting montacs into the same hole at 30yds so I must be close.


Are your Reapers hitting right? If you were over spined you would be hitting left.


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## STKA

Bowhuntinaddict said:


> Are your Reapers hitting right? If you were over spined you would be hitting left.


You're right I looked at the chart wrong. I haven't shot a reaper yet, just the montacs. I originally had them hitting way high but that was nock pinch and has been corrected.


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## STKA

There's no way I'm under spined with a .334 shaft. 

I misspoke earlier the shafts are Mayhems not Maximas. At 430 grains now, weighed not calculated.


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## Kris87

STKA said:


> Has anyone had experience with trying to broadhead tune with a slight (very slight) idler lean. I can't get my BH's closer than about 2" at 30yds. Broadheads are hitting right. I'm guessing the slight lean is causing my problem.


Did you try moving the rest to the right? Thats what fixed my problem on one of my bows where BH were hitting right. And yes, its backwards of what this thread says, but its the way I have found works more often. Try it.


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## STKA

Yes, I went back and forth in small increments and that was close as I could get it. Either movement from the closest put the BH's farther right.


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## WhataBuck

Oh I would find this 2 days before season opener!!! Got slick tricks hitting 2.5" left of FP's... Thinking about bumping the drop away rest to the right 1/16" and see what happens... I'm grouping both FP and BH nicely at 31 yards, just having the BHs right of FP is driving me nuts... I may adjust, I may just compensate for this weekend if I shoot...


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## STKA

WhataBuck said:


> Oh I would find this 2 days before season opener!!! Got slick tricks hitting 2.5" left of FP's... Thinking about bumping the drop away rest to the right 1/16" and see what happens... I'm grouping both FP and BH nicely at 31 yards, just having the BHs right of FP is driving me nuts... I may adjust, I may just compensate for this weekend if I shoot...


If you want to try tweaking the rest, just put a little piece of tape across the hashes. Cut it along the seam and mark your starting position with a straight line. That way you can always get back to where you started.


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## hooktc

Three inch high and three -four to the right at twenty yards please help 100 grain slictrick 400 is arrows 59 pounds


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## bryanmonique

My field point are right on but my thunderhead 125 are 4.5'' to the right
what to do. my bow is a bear mauler 64 lb 28'' draw pyledriver 340 and fmj 340 Easton 29''


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## Kuriga

I've followed this guide successfully on 6 bows, some mine, some friends. As long as the bow was shooting well going in, every one has gone pretty smoothly (minus my last attempt). It's really a straight forward approach. Shoot, move rest, shoot, move again.... 

My last attempt was driving me crazy, I was consistently right for BH and perfect for FPs. Long, frustrating story short, I was getting an ever so slight vane contact on my dropaway rest. I turned the nock to make the clearance. 10 shots later, 30 yards, BH and FP in the same hole.

It can often be as simple as that. Now I'll be checking that out first on the next setup. Otherwise, thanks for the guide that is still working well.


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## eskimoohunt

Why move the rest up if you want the impact to go down?


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## Kris87

eskimoohunt said:


> Why move the rest up if you want the impact to go down?


Moving the rest up will move a broadheads poi up further than a field point. Eventually, when its where it should be, they will hit the same place.


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## bowcoop

I have a PSE bow madness. im shooting beeman mfx 400 shafts with 100 grian heads and whisker biscuit. My broadheads were shooting right and high. I moved my biscuit to the left and got the fp and bh within a couple of inches but when i get the bh in the bulls eye my fp then shoot to the left. I could use any help or suggestions i can get. Ran out of light last night so tomorrow I will try again. Just had a new string and cable put on the bow, would that be causing my problem?


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## alanankris1019

11 pages of blah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 22feetseat

I must have the best tuner, I never have a problems like these just because an arrow has a broad head that once had a field point, mostly shoot practice broad heads anyway now, If your not on the dime with a field point , you best go back to the laser then the paper. With all the great equipment to use today, I don't see how people can have so much trouble, if you shoot bullet holes through the paper, your arrow should be on the dime.


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## Richard1969

Tagged


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## V-TRAIN

mark


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## bowhuntertx

Mark


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## Doc

22feetseat said:


> I must have the best tuner, I never have a problems like these just because an arrow has a broad head that once had a field point, mostly shoot practice broad heads anyway now, If your not on the dime with a field point , you best go back to the laser then the paper. With all the great equipment to use today, I don't see how people can have so much trouble, if you shoot bullet holes through the paper, your arrow should be on the dime.


Not correct information...paper is a starting point. It's like saying, bore sight a rifle and you'll be good to go. I do find humor in the fact that you criticize people for having problems, but yet you don't tune your own bow....thanks for the chuckle :lol:


----------



## Bwana

Doc said:


> Not correct information...paper is a starting point. It's like saying, bore sight a rifle and you'll be good to go. I do find humor in the fact that you criticize people for having problems, but yet you don't tune your own bow....thanks for the chuckle :lol:


X2, Your thread was a great help to all Doc....thanks for sharing


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## jodipuma

So did you start sighted in with fp?


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## phillymac23

I tried this tonight and only took two shots looks like I'm all ready setup. In the picture the top arrow is the field point and the bottom arrow is the broad head. The broadhead is a Spitfire.









Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## Thug life

Can I broadhead tune at 20 yards and after that, will my bh's have the same POI with my fp's at 45 yards? 45 yards is my max for bow hunting. I don't want to have to bh tune any further than 20 yards because I know the further you are from the target your groups get bigger. Which could lead to frustration for me. But first I have to get some stronger spined arrows first and see how my bh's and fp's shoot and go from there.


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## LvToHunt

Thug life said:


> Can I broadhead tune at 20 yards and after that, will my bh's have the same POI with my fp's at 45 yards? 45 yards is my max for bow hunting. I don't want to have to bh tune any further than 20 yards because I know the further you are from the target your groups get bigger. Which could lead to frustration for me. But first I have to get some stronger spined arrows first and see how my bh's and fp's shoot and go from there.


Yes you can BH tune at 20yds. IMO you should shoot your BH's at all distances that you'll be hunting at. Just for simple reason that you want to know how how your BH's will react at those distances. Go to the beginning of this thread, you will find all the info you need to get your BH's shooting with your fp's out 45yds easily. Good Luck.


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## nodog

LvToHunt said:


> Yes you can BH tune at 20yds. IMO you should shoot your BH's at all distances that you'll be hunting at.


IMO he should shoot just as he would be hunting.


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## LvToHunt

nodog said:


> IMO he should shoot just as he would be hunting.


I believe that's basically what I said. Just worded different.


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## Derag2

when you guys are doing this do you ever worry about your nock height? if your starting at 1/8 above then you move your rest twice at 1/16 your now level?????? Or do you just leave and say it is what it is?


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## oly44

This thread was a lot of help. I tuned my bow for BHs by myself for the first time today. It took a little while but i finally got them hitting right on with each other... Literally see. But now i just have to check out to 30 or 40 yards to makes sure they are still flying together. Then after that back to 60 to finish with my FPs so i can finish setting up my new single pin sight.


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## Emphysema

I am shooting 25 yards with my BHs well within 1" of my FPs when I move my distances out to 40+ yards they hit high. Is that due to the added air foil at the front of my arrow or should I lower my arrow rest slightly to compensate for the height gain at the longer yards? Left and right are still perfect at the longer ranges.


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## BoHunter0210

Marked.


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## .308

Thanks for the info and help


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## mainjet

I guess I don't get this... I thought I did but I tried it last night and had trouble.

I am shooting Muzzy 3 blade 100 grain. I did this in my basement so I was only at 10 yards and maybe that is one problem. But I fired my field tip and hit bullseye. Then I fired my BH and horizontally I was on the same level but my broadheads hit 4 inches left. No problem, I just moved the rest to the right some. The broadheads now hit bullseye so I try the field tips and they hit to the right a couple inches.

By the time I was done I had pushed my rest over a lot and never got the two tips to meet. Then I noticed on a shot that one of my vanes came off so I put that arrow away. Then I noticed a vane on another arrow was coming loose so I put that away. Then a third arrow had the vane just starting to come loose at the front.lol

So I put the rest back where it was and I am going to my archery shop tonight to see if I can get my arrows fixed and ask why this is happening. At the same time I am thinking now about getting some mechanicals because I am not confident with what I am shooting now. I can get my bh to hit the bullseye but then I can't practice with my field tips the way I want. So I was thinking mechanicals until after the season then go back and try to figure out these fixed heads.

What the heck am I doing wrong? Obviously I don't know anything about this but the darn OP made it seem so simple that I thought "I can do that". lol. help


----------



## gbear

My suggestion is to read the whole thread and take notes. We don't know anything about how your bow is set up, arrow size/length, etc.

I'll tell you where I like to start, with a MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING by nuts&bolts. Any adjustments after you screw on the BH will/should be minor, in my experience.
Make sure your BHs spin true.


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## gbear

and post 21 on this page will get you modified French tuning.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1334651


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## 5965derek

marked


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## PGFbowhunter

Thanks Doc

my broadheads (montec 100) are hitting with field points out to forty yards!!


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## mwntnmuleys

Tagg


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## KCDomer

Marked


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## nodog

LvToHunt said:


> I believe that's basically what I said. Just worded different.


I mean just like he would hunt, not just the distances he would be hunting. If from a stand then from a stand and if it gets cold then with the clothes he would be wearing. Head covering and gloves make a difference.


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## nodog

PGFbowhunter said:


> Thanks Doc
> 
> my broadheads (montec 100) are hitting with field points out to forty yards!!


They will, they how ever are not as sharp as they should be. Used them once, lost 2 deer and poor blood trail. It was also the hunt that cemented in me the value of practicing as I hunt. 

I tune with heads that are tough to tune with, monetcs are not tough at all so what they tell isn't all that much.


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## tackscall

Here we go, broadheads impacting to the right and low. I think I'll wait until tomorrow to tune, it's blowing 30 here


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## wvrktguy

Was having BH flight issues and this thread saved my day!


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## htrain57

Great writeup


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## oldkella

do you shoot left handed??


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## flounderv2

Glad I stumbled across this. Put a new sight on this year and new strings and noticed that Bh are hitting low and right. Been practicing out to 60 with fp but at 40 the BH are about 6-7" low and 4-5" right. Ill be using this thread to get this taken care of this fri before I head out. Hopefully all goes well and I dont jack things up before heading out in the afternoon .


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## flounderv2

Well guys, I got up this morning and ran through this. I am having one problem though. My left and right are now lined up however my fp are hitting just about 2-3" higher than my broadheads. Unfortunately, I cant raise my rest anymore due to the rest mount hitting the cable roller guard.. Bow is the original Z7, rest is a QAD ultrarest. I assume I would need to do something with my knock point to fix?


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## Bob H in NH

flounderv2 said:


> Well guys, I got up this morning and ran through this. I am having one problem though. My left and right are now lined up however my fp are hitting just about 2-3" higher than my broadheads. Unfortunately, I cant raise my rest anymore due to the rest mount hitting the cable roller guard.. Bow is the original Z7, rest is a QAD ultrarest. I assume I would need to do something with my knock point to fix?


Lower the nock point, same effect as raising the rest


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## Hower08

Having BH flight issues with my prodigy. Did this, all I did was chase my FPs around. Will mess with it more tomorrow


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## just recurvin

Hower08 said:


> Having BH flight issues with my prodigy. Did this, all I did was chase my FPs around. Will mess with it more tomorrow


Grip issues? Contact issues?


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## Hower08

No contact issues. And I'm consistent with my grip. Every change I made to my rest shows up on target fps are just moving too. So I dunno what the heck the deal is. Might set everything back to where it was and start over


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## nick060200

i would yolk tune the prodigy. where are your heads hitting in relation to FP?

yolk tuning, will dial it right in. if you dont have a press your gonna need one.


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## Hower08

I'm going to take it back to the guy I bought it from he's got everything. And hitting right and just a C hair low


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## 5965derek

Marked


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## MPKO

I started to bh tune my bow after i changed my strings. Bh i use were qad exodus, bow is bt carbon overdrive. I first started with 340 carbon arrows whith 3inch vanes. I was able to tune it quite easily by yoke tuning. I then tried my other set of arrows which are with 2inch vanes. They were hitting constantly to right about 4-5inch. I tried to move my rest to left but it didn't help. Then i realized to doublecheck my cam leans. They were not equal. I tuneed both cams to lean equally and i set the center shot and yoke tuned as long both fh and bh were hitting to same place. So after this exercise my both set of arrows are hitting exactly to same place. 
So tip is. If you have a bow with yoke tuning capabilities and you have problems with bh tuning. Check that bith of your cams have equal lean, do your primary tuning with yoke tuning, and finalize it with small rest micro adjustments.


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## rustyhart

When did this get moved from the broad head section?


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## RogerV53

Good stuff, when I get to the point where I can hit the spot I'm shooting at every time I'll give this a try. Trying now would be chasing my tail.


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## swampfox234

MPKO said:


> I started to bh tune my bow after i changed my strings. Bh i use were qad exodus, bow is bt carbon overdrive. I first started with 340 carbon arrows whith 3inch vanes. I was able to tune it quite easily by yoke tuning. I then tried my other set of arrows which are with 2inch vanes. They were hitting constantly to right about 4-5inch. I tried to move my rest to left but it didn't help. Then i realized to doublecheck my cam leans. They were not equal. I tuneed both cams to lean equally and i set the center shot and yoke tuned as long both fh and bh were hitting to same place. So after this exercise my both set of arrows are hitting exactly to same place.
> So tip is. If you have a bow with yoke tuning capabilities and you have problems with bh tuning. Check that bith of your cams have equal lean, do your primary tuning with yoke tuning, and finalize it with small rest micro adjustments.


So how do i yolk tune a BT Tribute?


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## mhill

swampfox234 said:


> So how do i yolk tune a BT Tribute?


You dont, you cant yoke tune binary cam bows. you adjust the rest or shim the limbs.


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## swampfox234

Thanks


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## DavidBLingo

was looking for this a few days ago


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## Jianthony315

Reference back to this..

Great write up. Its going to help me alot!!


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## JDUB007

tagged


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## The Fella

tagged


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## bowhuntermitch

Great thread. Helped myself and many a friends get their broadheads flying like they should. If you find yourself chasing field points and not closing the gap to broadheads, you may have other issues. Grip torque, wrong spine (99% of the time weak) broadheads won't spin, and believe it or not, face contact on the string. Also, loop torque.


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## JakeZ7

Awesome old thread. very simple and easy to follow.


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## Charman03

Marked


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## Charman03

Guys I sometimes run into issues where I can never get them to match up and run out of adjustment. Since I don't have a press, the pro shop typically starts twisting cables or yokes, not entirely sure, but it ends up working out. 

Any idea what they are doing when twisting stuff around? I'd really like to get a press so I could do this myself


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## stevenyoder.lil

Tagged

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## ebayollis

I know it's old, but excellent write up!!


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## brycemcindoe

question: I was broached tuning today and my broad heads were shooting to the left so i moved the rest to the right and it is maxed out and I'm still hitting left what are the next steps i can take?
thanks


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## gansettx

brycemcindoe said:


> question: I was broached tuning today and my broad heads were shooting to the left so i moved the rest to the right and it is maxed out and I'm still hitting left what are the next steps i can take?
> thanks


What bow are you shooting?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## brycemcindoe

gansettx said:


> What bow are you shooting?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Im shooting a mathews no cam its set at 57 lb draw and its 28.5 draw length, shooting carbon express blue streak 250's


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## murphy31

Doc said:


> Final Shots


So when you got the two fours that close did u just move to sights to get the 2 fifths then move the sights again to get the sixs? I have never broadhead tuned before. Usually do mod french then walk back.


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## zotparkerm

Tag for review when the better half is sleeping


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## MOfurMOfeather

Been looking for this for some time!


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## firedizz

Excellent info!!


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## mlak27

Looked this thread up recently to fine tune a few things. Thought it’s worth resurrecting an actual useful thread as hopefully is hunters are going to use the summer to properly prepare.


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## rkirchner

mlak27 said:


> Looked this thread up recently to fine tune a few things. Thought it’s worth resurrecting an actual useful thread as hopefully is hunters are going to use the summer to properly prepare.


I have been able to get field tips and broadheads very close in the past But this year decided to follow the John Dudley rule.
Broadheads are grouping good, so set the sight for broad heads and practice shooting form with field points, Killed a small buck Wednesday following the Dudley rule


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## mlak27

To each his own. I enjoyed success with this particular process, but I understand that it’s not the only methods that can work.


rkirchner said:


> I have been able to get field tips and broadheads very close in the past But this year decided to follow the John Dudley rule.
> Broadheads are grouping good, so set the sight for broad heads and practice shooting form with field points, Killed a small buck Wednesday following the Dudley rule


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## GrainofPain

rkirchner said:


> I have been able to get field tips and broadheads very close in the past But this year decided to follow the John Dudley rule.
> Broadheads are grouping good, so set the sight for broad heads and practice shooting form with field points, Killed a small buck Wednesday following the Dudley rule


Didn't know he preached that, I agree. Since I only hunt, I generally don't care where my field points hit. One of the nice advantages (of practicing with broadheads) is the ease of arrow removal. 

Removing an arrow with a broadhead attached is a hell of a lot easier than one with a field point.


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## Eddie708

This helped me a ton when I was broadhead tuning


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## Chase406

Doc said:


> First shots
> Red is Broadhead
> Green is Field Point


Shoot the rage


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