# Foot Position Vs. Waist Position?



## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

When shooting from an open stance, is your waist / chest directly over your feet, or pointed towards the target (90deg.)? I've been experimenting and it seems that I'm a little steadier when my chest / waist is at 90 degrees to target. The same is true when I close my stance a bit. Is this an indication that the DL is a tad long?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Your hips should be open to the target with feet at approx. 40 degree angle and about shoulder width apart.
At set up, you turn your torso (coil) away from the target while keeping your hips open towards the target.
This strengthens your back and engages your back tension.
This will make your bow arm through your shoulders line up in a straight line for a very steady stance.
It's kind of hard to do at first if you're not used to it. But with training it becomes easier.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Feet & hips should be at the same angle to the target. All twisting should be in your core. Watch the videos of the Olympic shooters to see how they do it. It sets up a tension that is a little steadier during execution.

Some can't do it. I'm old and beat up. When I tried it, my back hurt so much that I thought I would have to give up archery. I went back to a square stance and it cleared up my back pain in a couple of days.

Allen


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## cypressd (Dec 29, 2014)

Subscribed. I have been wondering the same thing, as I've been playing around with stance and body position and bone on bone stuff. I'm interested to see what everyone says. XForce Girl, is the "coiling" technique how most people tend to set up? Could you explain it a little more? Is this more for recurve? Thanks!


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

are you shooting compound or recurve?


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## cypressd (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm shooting compound. I remember hearing about the set up you use. I thought it might have been on a recurve sight though. I'm looking for some kind of solution. To you coil away from the target like that so that you come to rest and hold at your natural point of aim and aimed at the target? Thanks!


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

cypressd said:


> Subscribed. I have been wondering the same thing, as I've been playing around with stance and body position and bone on bone stuff. I'm interested to see what everyone says. XForce Girl, is the "coiling" technique how most people tend to set up? Could you explain it a little more? Is this more for recurve? Thanks!


Hi, 
The coiling I would say is not how most do it. Unless they are familiar with the National training system. It was developed for recurve but is also valid for compound shooters. I worked with Linda Beck, (compound dream team coach) and she is very good. 
Imagine at full draw, your hips are pointed towards the target(approx. 40 degree) Your bow, bow arm, and shoulders make a straight line to the target. The coiling makes your back very strong and solid because your back muscles are twisted around your spine (coiled). (imagine wringing a towel) 
Your shoulders should be down and your hips tucked, lower rib cage, making your back as flat as possible.

I have been training with a coach via Skype on this very thing. And using what I have learned on my own form. I have to tell you, must shots are much more solid and consistent. The whole "feel" of my shooting has improved. When I follow the steps and do what I'm supposed to, I feel like I cannot miss.


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## cypressd (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks! That's a great explanation. I'm still a little confused about setting it up and drawing so you come into the body position described in the above post.... So would you basically start with squaring your shoulders to the target and using a bit of an open stance... then lift the bow so it's pointing left of the target (for a right-handed shooter) and start your draw ... and then as you draw the bow you "coil" your back so you are no longer pointing to the left of target but are now pointing the arrow directly at it when settled at full draw? What is the setup process to get your back coiled and everything else aligned as you described? Is the coil primarily performed during the drawing process?
Thanks very much for your knowledge.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

cypressd said:


> Thanks! That's a great explanation. I'm still a little confused about setting it up and drawing so you come into the body position described in the above post.... So would you basically start with squaring your shoulders to the target and using a bit of an open stance... then lift the bow so it's pointing left of the target (for a right-handed shooter) and start your draw ... and then as you draw the bow you "coil" your back so you are no longer pointing to the left of target but are now pointing the arrow directly at it when settled at full draw? What is the setup process to get your back coiled and everything else aligned as you described? Is the coil primarily performed during the drawing process?
> Thanks very much for your knowledge.


No the coil is performed at the set up with the recurve before you draw. a bit later with compound do to the particulars with the bow,

Set stance, Nock, Set Hook (release aid) and grip. *then Set-up (raise the bow, coil)*, then draw to load, then anchor, then transfer/hold, then expand then aim and then release/follow through.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

Do you have any pics or a diagram? 40 degrees off a line perpendicular to the target? I find this interesting. So your feet are 40 degrees, what angle is your waist?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like all three of my areas to match up, shoulders and hips and feet. I set my good shooting posture just standing there and then once I draw the bow my goal is to still have that good posture. Shooting indoor and in my back yard this is easy to accomplish but on a tough footing 3d course sometimes you have to put your feet in the only spot you can find and then twist the rest of the body to take the shot, that is the only time I allow it to happen.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

I line up my toes with the center of the target. (more specifically my pinky toe) My body is facing the wall (or the shooter next to me). When I was in the military, the fundamentals of marksmanship stresses "bone support and muscle relaxation"... It works for me, maybe some others not so much....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> I like all three of my areas to match up, shoulders and hips and feet. I set my good shooting posture just standing there and then once I draw the bow my goal is to still have that good posture. Shooting indoor and in my back yard this is easy to accomplish but on a tough footing 3d course sometimes you have to put your feet in the only spot you can find and then twist the rest of the body to take the shot, that is the only time I allow it to happen.


Something like Padgett has here. Weight fully down on both feet. Lead foot may be back from the back foot just a tad. Turning my head, addressing the target I like to see it centered. Tried this a couple of times and it seems my upper torso slightly turns to the target. The thing is, I practice one shot drills a lot and my stance is just like second nature. 
3D, yes, the footing is not all that great sometimes. I find what I can to get my feet down, like in down. For slight down hill or up hill shots I like to spread my feet to get a center of gravity effect. It's been a long time since a saw fence post and safety belt to keep from falling at the stake..


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm tend to lean toward what x-force girl is explaining, more open on windy days and a little more square on calmer days or for indoor but for the most part the same.

For me if I were to set up as if at anchor and look down my head is behind my zipper away from the target towards my release side, maybe 2-3 inches from my back foot. Probably about 80% of my weight is on my back side centered over the foot, leg, hip, with the pressure evenly distributed throughout my foot. My front foot does have some weight on it, but I've found more rigidity in my lower core if I add pressure/torque to the ground with the ball/big toe of my front foot. Think of the feeling you get if you stand square then turn your shoulders 90* to the right. That's an exaggeration of what I'm feeling of course but it helps you get the idea. I've found that for me this works very well for both recurve and for compound shooting, even on uneven ground. Your mileage may vary....


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Assuming we use one of the following shooting positions as viewed from the top, I would think that to have your waist directly above your feet will create a twist from the waist to the chest / shoulder area... That twist would be even more pronounced if your alignment is closer to the sketch on the right.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Reverend said:


> Assuming we use one of the following shooting positions as viewed from the top, I would think that to have your waist directly above your feet will create a twist from the waist to the chest / shoulder area... That twist one tor three bales to the left when shooting 20 yards. Unless your name is Sergio...then its four bales to the right. I think "we" can get away with it because of the low holding weights relative to recurve.
> 
> Shoulders are mostly in a position between your waist positions in the drawing.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Reverend said:


> Assuming we use one of the following shooting positions as viewed from the top, I would think that to have your waist directly above your feet will create a twist from the waist to the chest / shoulder area... That twist would be even more pronounced if your alignment is closer to the sketch on the right.


Bow arm in a line with the two shoulders. The NTS folks call this BARREL of the GUN.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerp...correct-posture-and-a-foundation-for-shooting

The release shoulder swings clockwise to the INLINE position, when you get to full draw. Other folks call this the WEDGE position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI

So, the shoulders form a line, the BARREL of the gun, the BARREL points clockwise RIGHT. If you think of a WEDGE, it makes more sense. Slice of pie. Triangle. The arrow and the release side forearm, are all in a line. So, the arrow points at the target, the flight path for the arrow. Release elbow directly behind the arrow...everybody can understand why you want the release elbow in line behind the arrow. So, the WEDGE folks, the NTS folks, want the two shoulders and the bow arm all in a line, as well, the second leg of the WEDGE. So, the chest, the core of your body, the tummy muscles are wound up like a watch spring, COILED clockwise right. TO reach the d-loop with the bow at brace, you gots to TWIST counter-clockwise. So, you ASSIST the draw muscles, by COILING the tummy muscles CLOCKwise right, and keep the right shoulder SWINGING clockwise, much farther than you are used to, to achieve the BARREL of the GUN (NTS lingo). Your very nice drawing on the RIGHT, is the NTS BARREL of the GUN alignment, the WEDGE alignment. So, what about the hip joints? NTS folks want the hips forming a line that points LEFT of the target, so there is TREMENDOUS torque through the tummy muscles. SHOULDERS and bow arm point NORTHEAST, towards the right edge of the bale. HIP joints form a line that points NORTHWEST, towards the LEFT edge of the bale. SURE, easy to describe...something that Olympic shooters in the NTS program can do...most folks, most AVERAGE joes...not gonna happen.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

More NTS speak. Coiling and Lift.

http://www.acearchers.com/archery-form/coiling-and-lift/


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Barrel of the gun (shoulders and bow arm all in one line).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LINEAR draw versus ANGULAR draw. If you try to do the COIL, to get to full draw and anchor, it helps to THINK that your release elbow travels in a circle, to get to the full draw final position. SWING your release elbow like the edge of a door.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I don't have time to look or I'd provide the link but if you watch some Brady Ellison shooting (assuming he hasn't changed) you can see that he does the coil type draw. 

I can't describe it better than what's already been described. What I can say is that when it's done properly drawing becomes less stressful/less of an effort because you're using more of your back. And when you get aligned you tend to get more "locked in". Additionally, it helps put the loaded mass more over your center of gravity giving you a better balance.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm going to add a 3rd diagram, where BOTH shoulders AND the release elbow are IN LINE, and the bow arm forms the angle. I think I've observed this position in several top shooters.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks for all the great posts. There's great info here. 
As far as the NTS (National Training Sytem), most of their recommendations are geared towards recurve shooters. Now I've heard they are working on a compound version in conjunction with Larry Wise and others. I wonder if they'll recommend a different position / alignment for us wheel bowers?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> Reverend said:
> 
> 
> > Assuming we use one of the following shooting positions as viewed from the top, I would think that to have your waist directly above your feet will create a twist from the waist to the chest / shoulder area... That twist one tor three bales to the left when shooting 20 yards. Unless your name is Sergio...then its four bales to the right. I think "we" can get away with it because of the low holding weights relative to recurve.
> ...


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Here's the revised sketch...


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Reverend said:


> Thanks for all the great posts. There's great info here.
> As far as the NTS (National Training Sytem), most of their recommendations are geared towards recurve shooters. Now I've heard they are working on a compound version in conjunction with Larry Wise and others. I wonder if they'll recommend a different position / alignment for us wheel bowers?


Linda adapts this to compound very well. If your shoulders already nearly align with the target with your current form, it's a simple matter of turning the bow shoulder into the bow during the draw. It promotes the locked in feel furyflier mentions.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Rick! said:


> Linda adapts this to compound very well. If your shoulders already nearly align with the target with your current form, it's a simple matter of turning the bow shoulder into the bow during the draw. It promotes the locked in feel furyflier mentions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, she does.
I worked with her a lot.
Bless her heart for her patience with me.

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks all of this information. I am working on this shooting Barebow Recurve. When I get it right, I feel it. When I get it wrong, I shoot right or short draw!
This week, I went to shooting closed/nuetral stance to eliminate those variables, but I do feel better with the coiled draw. I'll feel even better when I quit screwing it up


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Tried this coiling with my compound today and it does seem to work. Now I do have a question, do you change the angle of your open stance as distance increase or do you always keep the same offset regardless? By distance i mean 50 out to 80 which is what I was shooting today. I Tried to maintain the same offset but at 80yds I did not seem as stable trying to hold on a low dot (now I could have been getting tired) it seemed a bit easier to hold more perpendicular. New at this coiling will continue to practice it as I can see the benefit.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

vito9999 said:


> Tried this coiling with my compound today and it does seem to work. Now I do have a question, do you change the angle of your open stance as distance increase or do you always keep the same offset regardless? By distance i mean 50 out to 80 which is what I was shooting today. I Tried to maintain the same offset but at 80yds I did not seem as stable trying to hold on a low dot (now I could have been getting tired) it seemed a bit easier to hold more perpendicular. New at this coiling will continue to practice it as I can see the benefit.


I don't really change my stance.
The stance is more for balance and being connected to the floor/ground.
I have played with my stance to get the best position but once I found it I repeated it every time.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

XForce Girl said:


> I don't really change my stance.
> The stance is more for balance and being connected to the floor/ground.
> I have played with my stance to get the best position but once I found it I repeated it every time.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, I will experiment with my feet some and find were I want to keep them.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

So if I'm following this correctly, in order for the shoulders to feel that "locked in" sensation I need to have them somewhere between Fig. A and Fig. B? 
Also, since my hips will be directly above my feet in an open stance, they will be facing left of the target, whereas my shoulders will either face the target (Fig. A), or just right of the target (Fig. B). Both instances will produce that coiled feel. Correct?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just think, Rev. Once you get it figured out you may have to go back and re-tune your bow


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Reverend said:


> View attachment 5925953
> 
> 
> So if I'm following this correctly, in order for the shoulders to feel that "locked in" sensation I need to have them somewhere between Fig. A and Fig. B?
> Also, since my hips will be directly above my feet in an open stance, they will be facing left of the target, whereas my shoulders will either face the target (Fig. A), or just right of the target (Fig. B). Both instances will produce that coiled feel. Correct?


Figure B is the correct answer.
You need a straight line from bow hand through both shoulders. Any bend in that area can cause muscle fatigue and inconsistency.

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## fozziebear2000 (Feb 28, 2017)

Following with much interest. XForce Girl, the "coil" under discussion is represented by having feet and hips in line with the green markings shown in this copy of Figure B, correct?











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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Just think, Rev. Once you get it figured out you may have to go back and re-tune your bow


Haha. Yes. The madness continues...


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

With all due respect to KSL, and I have a lot, the importance of the coil is much smaller than achieving alignment of the shoulders with the bow arm, and the overall timing of the motion of the shot. Virtually everyone can get a good line supporting the bow arm. Most can bet the drawing elbow pretty close to line with the arrow. From that position, different people with different muscular development and body geometry may have differences in what muscles they use when, but the point is that we are best exploiting the skeleton to support the forces. The "coil" is certainly useful in getting there, but one must get efficient alignment first. I have found it useful to start rebuilding my form from a square stance and am gradually working on opening the stance back up to where I once shot, working the "coil" more into my shot sequence. It does not have to be as extreme as advertised, and I think it confuses learning the scapular movements and alignment for many.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

fozziebear2000 said:


> Following with much interest. XForce Girl, the "coil" under discussion is represented by having feet and hips in line with the green markings shown in this copy of Figure B, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is correct.
As someone else mentioned, the alignment of the arm and shoulders must happen first.
It's not easy at first to coil without your hips wanting to follow your torso.
It takes practice and training.
Being a bit older than some archers, my range of movement wasn't what I needed to achieve holding.
But with practice I've gotten much better at it.

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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

This morning I tried this "coil" method, and WOW, it feels S-T-R-A-N-G-E indeed. It felt like I was playing the game Twister. No doubt everything new feels weird at first, but this pretzel-like twisting is bizarre. Now I'm not trying to argue the point, but I'm looking for the reasoning behind this. I thought the best form comes from a relaxed, natural stance? Doesn't this seem to go contrary to that idea? I also wonder how much of this method, that was birthed in the "recurve arena," can truly carry over to the compound shooter?

Finally, (again not arguing), how many world class compound shooters are shooting this way? I'd like to see some vids of this...


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Watch some of the Korean recurve to compound converts in the WA videos.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Reverend said:


> This morning I tried this "coil" method, and WOW, it feels S-T-R-A-N-G-E indeed. It felt like I was playing the game Twister. No doubt everything new feels weird at first, but this pretzel-like twisting is bizarre. Now I'm not trying to argue the point, but I'm looking for the reasoning behind this. I thought the best form comes from a relaxed, natural stance? Doesn't this seem to go contrary to that idea? I also wonder how much of this method, that was birthed in the "recurve arena," can truly carry over to the compound shooter?
> 
> Finally, (again not arguing), how many world class compound shooters are shooting this way? I'd like to see some vids of this...


Reverend, 
It does feel strange at first. the theory is like the twisting of a towel (spine) making it strong and rigid. Each step defines a specific group of muscles and movements to build one the previous making a very strong system.

It was developed for recurve but coaches Beck and Wise have written and developed the system for compound. 
Relaxed and natural is fine for hunters who only care about one shot but it's not very repeatable. By having specific defined steps in a system the shooter can make a more repeatable shot.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

XForce Girl said:


> Reverend,
> It does feel strange at first. the theory is like the twisting of a towel (spine) making it strong and rigid. Each step defines a specific group of muscles and movements to build one the previous making a very strong system.
> 
> It was developed for recurve but coaches Beck and Wise have written and developed the system for compound.
> Relaxed and natural is fine for hunters who only care about one shot but it's not very repeatable. By having specific defined steps in a system the shooter can make a more repeatable shot.


Thanks XFG 
The towel / rope example makes sense. I just wonder if the tension we're creating by "coiling" doesn't naturally want to "uncoil" thereby causing us to drift left of target?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

XForce Girl said:


> Reverend,
> It does feel strange at first. the theory is like the twisting of a towel (spine) making it strong and rigid. Each step defines a specific group of muscles and movements to build one the previous making a very strong system.
> 
> It was developed for recurve but coaches Beck and Wise have written and developed the system for compound.
> Relaxed and natural is fine for hunters who only care about one shot but it's not very repeatable. By having specific defined steps in a system the shooter can make a more repeatable shot.


While I have found value in much of NTS, the coil is one part that I am skeptical of. It does increase tension in the lower back, but I am not convinced that it is always such a benefit. The open stance appears to be more stable but I believe the benefit to be that the support is not in the same plane as the draw. I have always identified my stance by finding the point where I naturally align to the target and don't drift. That was open years ago, but now, since returning to the sport and starting from scratch rebuilding my form, it is close to a straight stance, perhaps a little open. As I get more comfortable with the rest of the motion I will try to open it up more to experiment.

I have to disagree in general with the statement that specific defined steps make a more repeatable shot. That may be the case over time because the archer is focusing more on the same goal, but in general at any stage in development, one is more consistent when performing closer to the attractor states that the system exhibits. This is why I have always identified stance by shooting close to the target with eyes closed and finding the natural alignment. There may be a better point after training it, but you have to decide when it makes sense to try to change something in form. This is part of the problem with NTS, IMNSHO, and why many find it too difficult. Changing too much at once is likely to lead to confusion in any skill. You have to identify the points that afford changing and move carefully when dealing with people learning skills. (Motor learning and control are something I do know a bit about, as I have a MS in the area).


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Reverend said:


> Thanks XFG
> The towel / rope example makes sense. I just wonder if the tension we're creating by "coiling" doesn't naturally want to "uncoil" thereby causing us to drift left of target?


Yes, your body does want to Uncoil but by keeping and holding the position it also makes you Hold stronger and by holding that tension in the back you create a strong shot and more consistent.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> While I have found value in much of NTS, the coil is one part that I am skeptical of. It does increase tension in the lower back, but I am not convinced that it is always such a benefit. The open stance appears to be more stable but I believe the benefit to be that the support is not in the same plane as the draw. I have always identified my stance by finding the point where I naturally align to the target and don't drift. That was open years ago, but now, since returning to the sport and starting from scratch rebuilding my form, it is close to a straight stance, perhaps a little open. As I get more comfortable with the rest of the motion I will try to open it up more to experiment.
> 
> I have to disagree in general with the statement that specific defined steps make a more repeatable shot. That may be the case over time because the archer is focusing more on the same goal, but in general at any stage in development, one is more consistent when performing closer to the attractor states that the system exhibits. This is why I have always identified stance by shooting close to the target with eyes closed and finding the natural alignment. There may be a better point after training it, but you have to decide when it makes sense to try to change something in form. This is part of the problem with NTS, IMNSHO, and why many find it too difficult. Changing too much at once is likely to lead to confusion in any skill. You have to identify the points that afford changing and move carefully when dealing with people learning skills. (Motor learning and control are something I do know a bit about, as I have a MS in the area).


I understand what you are saying and many do not agree with the NTS system. For me, It's all I know. I teach it, I learned it and have seen the benefits. There are many ways to shoot and they all have their benefits. I will not be able to change your mind any easier than you can change mine.

I'm not insisting anyone do things the way I say. But if someone asks me to explain, I will as the NTS is all I know.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

You completely miss the point. I don't have a problem with NTS, in general, and am in fact learning to shoot again under an NTS trained coach and getting great benefit from it. I am not, however, willing to accept it as gospel and not question why it works or not, and I am going to expect to understand how it can be improved upon. You seem to be assuming that there are only two polar perspectives on the matter. Frankly, that seems to be the way lots of folks want discussions to go on AT, and it is largely the reason that I disengaged with the NAA over two decades ago. Too many people wanting a religion rather than a scientifically based training program makes for more of the same old NAA. And it appears that some got what they wanted, but new names don't change old patterns.

If you are a decent coach, I am sure you actually know more than any NTS program can teach you. Great coaches are like great performers in any field and are able to synthesize information from many experiences and sources and apply it to some goal. If you are satisfied that NTS is all that there is to know and not willing to learn more and different information and perspectives, you are not contribution to moving the sport forward. But then, much of the archery community has always been more interested in status quo than moving the sport forward.


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## fozziebear2000 (Feb 28, 2017)

As a person interested in this thread I will volunteer that it does not seem to me that the point is being missed by any of the contributors so far - my 2cents. 
Icaillo, can you expand on the "attractor states" comment. What does that mean?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> You completely miss the point. I don't have a problem with NTS, in general, and am in fact learning to shoot again under an NTS trained coach and getting great benefit from it. I am not, however, willing to accept it as gospel and not question why it works or not, and I am going to expect to understand how it can be improved upon. You seem to be assuming that there are only two polar perspectives on the matter. Frankly, that seems to be the way lots of folks want discussions to go on AT, and it is largely the reason that I disengaged with the NAA over two decades ago. Too many people wanting a religion rather than a scientifically based training program makes for more of the same old NAA. And it appears that some got what they wanted, but new names don't change old patterns.
> 
> If you are a decent coach, I am sure you actually know more than any NTS program can teach you. Great coaches are like great performers in any field and are able to synthesize information from many experiences and sources and apply it to some goal. If you are satisfied that NTS is all that there is to know and not willing to learn more and different information and perspectives, you are not contribution to moving the sport forward. But then, much of the archery community has always been more interested in status quo than moving the sport forward.


I'm not missing your point at all and I admit there are many ways to shoot.
Im just not familiar with them.
There are specific reason for using NTS with the main one being to prevent injury.
It's not only about knowing the how but the why as well.
I'm not knocking anyone's shooting style if it works for them.
IMO, the NTS is a science based program.
I just choose to study the system I like.
I've seen its benefits and how much it has helped my own shooting.
Please don't read more into my replies im not disagreeing with you or trying to argue.
I am open minded of other techniques, it just that nobody has been able to show me one that works better for me.
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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

fozziebear2000 said:


> As a person interested in this thread I will volunteer that it does not seem to me that the point is being missed by any of the contributors so far - my 2cents.
> Icaillo, can you expand on the "attractor states" comment. What does that mean?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Attractor States

Slide 36. 

Here's the whole course, knock yerself out.

Rev, the short story is it that it says you'll get used to the coil thing.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Reverend said:


> Thanks XFG
> The towel / rope example makes sense. I just wonder if the tension we're creating by "coiling" doesn't naturally want to "uncoil" thereby causing us to drift left of target?





XForce Girl said:


> Yes, your body does want to Uncoil but by keeping and holding the position it also makes you Hold stronger and by holding that tension in the back you create a strong shot and more consistent.


That "uncoil" representation is a great description of what is happening when you don't follow through. I'd venture to guess that the majority of people struggle with it when they are starting out. I know some experienced guys that continually fight it. 

I'd be willing to bet it is the #1 thing archers struggle with, and most of them don't even know that it's happening before the shot breaks, much less how to fix it. The NTS system enforces this in the early stages of development. Good, better, best, who knows, but that is IMO the most beneficial part of the program.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> That "uncoil" representation is a great description of what is happening when you don't follow through. I'd venture to guess that the majority of people struggle with it when they are starting out. I know some experienced guys that continually fight it.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet it is the #1 thing archers struggle with, and most of them don't even know that it's happening before the shot breaks, much less how to fix it. The NTS system enforces this in the early stages of development. Good, better, best, who knows, but that is IMO the most beneficial part of the program.


I totally agree.
The coil is a huge part of follow through.
My JOAD compound kids struggle with it with their high letoff bows they tend to relax too much and get a weak release and follow though.
Lots of people do not understand how important it is to hold that tension through to the end.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

The point that you missed is that I don't need convincing regarding the value of NTS, and I am not trying to convince you that any particular method is better. What I take issue with is anyone who insists that every archer should use every aspect of it, and not being willing to understand how biomechanical principles support it, or not. We really don't disagree on much of substance. 

While much of NTS is sound biomechanics, and some of it is based on scientific research, every coach, IMO, should clearly understand the underlying anatomy, physiology, and biomechanics better than what I see being discussed.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

fozziebear2000 said:


> As a person interested in this thread I will volunteer that it does not seem to me that the point is being missed by any of the contributors so far - my 2cents.
> Icaillo, can you expand on the "attractor states" comment. What does that mean?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The notion of attractor states comes from a Dynamical Systems perspective on motor control. One view of motor control is that much can be explained by identifying behaviors in a state space defined by some geometrical pattern in a time dependent model. The human body typically exhibits oscillatory movements over time in many activities and much can be learned about how those activities are controlled by studying these patterns and the physics that effect them. For instance, if you plot sight movements, you will see certain patterns. Those patterns will change with different stance, shot alignment, and timing. The goal would be to find the combination that exhibits the minimal movement about the point that aligns to the target. Perhaps it would be more precise and easier to describe a search for "affordances", as described by Gibson. Affordances are the conditions that when exploited are likely to lead to some goal. When I find optimum stance by shooting with my eyes closed I am finding the position with the greatest affordance toward alignment with the target. If I choose correctly, along with the rest of the alignment and tension in the right muscles at the right time I will be creating an attractor state about the line to the target that my body tends toward in its movements.

The major alternative, and dominant until the 1990s, view of motor control is a cognitive psychology perspective in which everything is controlled from a central "executive" in the brain. The truth, of course is that neither perspective completely explains motor learning and control, and that they both have much to contribute to our understanding. When we use rehearsal and attentional control we can thank the cognitive psychology folks. When we learn how to exploit the biomechanics of a system to find the most efficient way to perform a task, we can largely thank the dynamical systems folks.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

XForce Girl said:


> I totally agree.
> The coil is a huge part of follow through.
> My JOAD compound kids struggle with it with their high letoff bows they tend to relax too much and get a weak release and follow though.
> Lots of people do not understand how important it is to hold that tension through to the end.
> ...


I also think some people are too smart for their own good with this sport and overthink themselves out of learning the simplest aspects to a necessary level of proficiency. I.e. Putting the little steps ahead of the big steps and ultimately fighting them both as a result, making the entire process longer and more difficult.


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## I'M DK (Jul 4, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> I also think some people are too smart for their own good with this sport and overthink themselves out of learning the simplest aspects to a necessary level of proficiency. I.e. Putting the little steps ahead of the big steps and ultimately fighting them both as a result, making the entire process longer and more difficult.


I need to think on this.
It sound too much like me.

DK


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Perhaps some video representations of Compound NTS form?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> Perhaps some video representations of Compound NTS form?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know if this link will work or not.
Coach Linda Beck teaches the compound NTS, her page has lots of info.https://www.facebook.com/archerlindab/

Go to the videos tab on the fB page to see a couple videos.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

XForce Girl said:


> I don't know if this link will work or not.
> Coach Linda Beck teaches the compound NTS, her page has lots of info.https://www.facebook.com/archerlindab/
> 
> Go to the videos tab on the fB page to see a couple videos.
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Interesting. I've also wondered what NTS for compound looks like. Though in my case, because of decades of herniated disks in the lower back and finally surgery a few years ago to correct an exploded disk, I do do a kind of "coil", but the other way with a significantly closed stance. In fact, I'm most stable with the rear (right) foot behind the front foot pointing about 30-45 degs away from the shooting line. Which I think is kind of comical given the topic .

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I guess I still can't see this "coil". I do see the shooter's slightly closed stance and his hips and shoulders line up over the top of the feed. It just looks like the torso moves as a unit to me(?).


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

length strength also helps in archery alot !


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> The notion of attractor states comes from a Dynamical Systems perspective on motor control. One view of motor control is that much can be explained by identifying behaviors in a state space defined by some geometrical pattern in a time dependent model. The human body typically exhibits oscillatory movements over time in many activities and much can be learned about how those activities are controlled by studying these patterns and the physics that effect them. For instance, if you plot sight movements, you will see certain patterns. Those patterns will change with different stance, shot alignment, and timing. The goal would be to find the combination that exhibits the minimal movement about the point that aligns to the target. Perhaps it would be more precise and easier to describe a search for "affordances", as described by Gibson. Affordances are the conditions that when exploited are likely to lead to some goal. When I find optimum stance by shooting with my eyes closed I am finding the position with the greatest affordance toward alignment with the target. If I choose correctly, along with the rest of the alignment and tension in the right muscles at the right time I will be creating an attractor state about the line to the target that my body tends toward in its movements.
> 
> The major alternative, and dominant until the 1990s, view of motor control is a cognitive psychology perspective in which everything is controlled from a central "executive" in the brain. The truth, of course is that neither perspective completely explains motor learning and control, and that they both have much to contribute to our understanding. When we use rehearsal and attentional control we can thank the cognitive psychology folks. When we learn how to exploit the biomechanics of a system to find the most efficient way to perform a task, we can largely thank the dynamical systems folks.


So impressive. Now go take a nap!

This was a great post until you decided it was necessary to flaunt your ego. You've managed to sour this thread while XForce Girl was doing her best, a great job in fact, to explain her thoughts & beliefs based on her training from the NTS system to provide some beneficial insight to those of us who may not have had this training. She was not trying to force anyone to use the NTS system, she just wanted to explain this technique to the OP and to those who queried her.

If you are so intent on trying to impress people why don't you start your own thread? I'm sure you may have some people read it(?).


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## Zombie_Feynman (Jun 27, 2014)

Bobmuley said:


> I guess I still can't see this "coil". I do see the shooter's slightly closed stance and his hips and shoulders line up over the top of the feed. It just looks like the torso moves as a unit to me(?).


This is a recurve shooter (Sjef van den Berg), but you can clearly see the change in shoulder alignment during the draw.






Sjef is not an NTS shooter, but you can see that "coiling" in any recurve archer that shoots open stance. Although you can't see the hips, they stay inline with the feet.

This shoulder aligment (posture B in Reverend's drawings) is important in recurve because it makes holding the force of the bow at full draw easier. In top level compound archers posture C is common, and it probably has something to do with the smaller draw weight but greater mass weight at anchor.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Zombie_Feynman said:


> This is a recurve shooter (Sjef van den Berg), but you can clearly see the change in shoulder alignment during the draw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So take the demonstration shooter from the facebook page and put his torso on Sjef's hips and legs and you end up at NTS?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Pete53 said:


> length strength also helps in archery alot !


 I mean leg strength is important ! my bad


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

lcaillo said:


> Affordances are the conditions that when exploited are likely to lead to some goal. When I find optimum stance by shooting with my eyes closed I am finding the position with the greatest affordance toward alignment with the target. If I choose correctly, along with the rest of the alignment and tension in the right muscles at the right time I will be creating an attractor state about the line to the target that my body tends toward in its movements.


In other words, try to find the most efficient, optimal way to perform a particular task within the physical constraints of the motor system involved. At least I think that's the basic idea, would that be correct? 

lee.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

That would be my view of what we are trying to accomplish. Well stated.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Not trying to impress anyone, just trying to answer the question. Why are people here so intent on creating conflict instead of sharing experience and creating new understanding. I am trying hard to learn NTS and take from it everything that is useful and have much in common with XForce Girl in terms of my view of the system. That does not mean that there is not much more to discover and understand. The polarization and vitriol here is disconcerting. It is not necessary and I don't think I will be here much longer.


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## sunra (Aug 21, 2015)

lcaillo said:


> I don't think I will be here much longer.


Don't let the few outweigh the many... 


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## Zombie_Feynman (Jun 27, 2014)

Bobmuley said:


> So take the demonstration shooter from the facebook page and put his torso on Sjef's hips and legs and you end up at NTS?


Maybe? I'm not really an expert on NTS (and know even less about compound). What I wanted to show is the coiling in the upper torso, and Sjef's video shows it very well. At the beginning the shoulder, hips and feet point to the left of the target. At full draw the shoulders point to the right.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> So take the demonstration shooter from the facebook page and put his torso on Sjef's hips and legs and you end up at NTS?


Looks painful . As I've written in a PM conversation, for something that's supposed to be so biomechanically sound and efficient, that sure doesn't look very biomechanically sound and efficient . At least for us older folks with big guts and creaky spines with dried up cartilage anyway. 

I've read elsewhere from other critics of NTS that it may be most beneficial to young, strong shooters who might be able to perform tasks like this coiling of the torso, but it's probably not suitable for older shooters or recreational archers, etc. 

But that's just from me looking from the outside in. I've never been trained in the NTS; just curious like others how it's been adapted to compound. Which I find interesting nonetheless.

lee.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Been utilizing this coil method over the last couple of weeks. At close ranges I've seen no discernable difference. However it has helped me clean up my 35-50 yd shooting. It is a tad uncomfortable at 1st. But having had 3 back surgeries and 4 more on ny right leg/foot it does make me a bit more stable and gets my old shoulders aligned with the target better.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Zombie_Feynman said:


> This is a recurve shooter (Sjef van den Berg), but you can clearly see the change in shoulder alignment during the draw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. Does not appear to be NTS, but the freeze frame analysis is interesting.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Looking back at the facebook video...How is NTS compound different than NTS recurve? I am not trying to be argumentative, but it looks like BEST recycled; which may be the most efficient[/U] way to shoot a recurve, but I see almost no on-th-line evidence that it is the most accurate way to shoot a compound.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> Looking back at the facebook video...How is NTS compound different than NTS recurve? I am not trying to be argumentative, but it looks like BEST recycled; which may be the most efficient[/U] way to shoot a recurve, but I see almost no on-th-line evidence that it is the most accurate way to shoot a compound.




Maybe we don't really know enough about it to really say. My comment was just based on watching a recurve shooter do the spine coiling thing, but truthfully I haven't found a full enough description of compound-adapted NTS to really criticize it one way or the other. Just bits and pieces of 2nd hand info and so on.

Anyone else good enough with Google to find a full account of compound NTS? I may just have overlooked it in my searches...

lee.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

It's not hard, just type in "NTS for compound bow".

You'll find 3-4 books that will have some chapters devoted to NTS compound, several links to AT threads discussing it, and Bob's BEST/NTS connection.

It's probably more efficient to pick up the phone and call Larry, Linda, or any reputable L5 (many seem to hang out on AT).
IMO, this is the same advice the OP should heed.




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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nuts&bolts said:


> Agreed. Does not appear to be NTS, but the freeze frame analysis is interesting.


Well all I can say is I wish I could get into alignment that good, coiling or not .

lee.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Here is my 2 cents based off what I have learned from those who know more than I. 

Coach Hardy Ward: Foot position really doesn't matter as long as it is comfortable, balanced and repeatable.
Rick McKinney: From his book he speaks that he normally uses a square stance, but in a cross wind he will use more of an open stance depending upon the amount of cross wind he is dealing with.

Some old timers have described to me that the best method of figuring out your best stance is to line up on the target, draw back to anchor, aim, close your eyes for a few seconds and open them. If your sight has drifted right, move your front foot left; or if it drifts left, move front foot right. Repeat until you are holding on target, and then see where your feet are at.

That being said, like some here have pointed out, is that when shooting 3D and field, you aren't always going to have flat even ground to shoot on. Even when you do as in target shooting, you aren't always going to have calm days, and when you have windy days it isn't always going to be a cross wind or any wind coming from one direction. So anyway I've come to the conclusion that it is important to practice shooting from different stances. 

I have in the past, doing some personal testing, have shot using a closed stance, square and open; and quite honestly I haven't seen any differences in my scoring. My most comfortable stance is a slightly open one, and that is the one I default to; but it is a comfort thing only. The key parts IMO is that for any stance you use, it should be balanced, shoulder width apart, and most of your balance on the balls of your feet. Of course this is when it is possible to do so, which is dependent upon the terrain you are shooting on. 

Oddly enough the comfortable slightly open stance that I normally use, when trying the test I described in the 3rd paragraph above, is the one that provides me the best alignment, without trying.

The key I think is experiment and see what is most comfortable to you; but just remember balanced stance, shoulder width apart, weight more on the balls of your feet (70-30 ratio is normally given).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

erose said:


> Some old timers have described to me that the best method of figuring out your best stance is to line up on the target, draw back to anchor, aim, close your eyes for a few seconds and open them. If your sight has drifted right, move your front foot left; or if it drifts left, move front foot right. Repeat until you are holding on target, and then see where your feet are at.


This is called Natural Point of Aim. This is one style of teaching full draw posture. This assumes a relaxed core...just let the gut hang loose. There are other methods, the exact opposite, where the core is coiled, loaded up, suck the gut IN, flatten the lumbar curve, rotate the pelvis/hip girdle into a convex position. There are reasons to load up the core muscles, instead of letting the gut hang loose. To each his own. Comfortable is WAY over-rated. Running hurdles is not comfortable. Gotta train for proper "form" to get over a hurdle efficiently, to approach competitive times. From a biomechanics perspective, meaning how the thigh bone connects to the hip joint, the hip joint has a particular shape, so the hip joint socket is NOT a ball joint, it has a particular shape. So, foot position DOES make a difference, from an anatomy perspective...assuming average, healthy, full range of motion human anatomy. When you get into prosthetic leg shooters, all bets are off. If you get into herniated disc issues in the shooter, then, again, all bets are off and custom solutions are required. Usually, asymmetric orthotics can help. So, sorry, FOOT position, heel height, DOES make a difference...can make a LARGE difference in some cases. Not what is "comfy" for the shooter, but the foot position, the heel height adjustment that boosts the x-count, you know, RESULTS based training. NTS is working on a compound archery program...should be getting close.


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