# Questions about a trend i have noticed??



## Indianayounggun (Feb 11, 2010)

I dont know if i have just been totally oblivious to this in past years but almost all of the true giant deer that people i know killed this year (180 or more) were killed by gun hunters that killed these deer by just walking through the woods and jumping a giant out of his bed and getting lucky enough to get a shot at him or having people push deer out of their bed to posters that were waiting for them at a pinch point, crossing, etc. So i started to ponder on this, and want to know what you guys think. Is stalking through bedding areas and pushing deer the best chance that people hold of killing the "true giant" deer that leave bedding areas to roam the woods ONLY after daylight hours. I know that it is basically out of the question for people that bowhunt only and that it would pretty much mess up an area if it was done very much at all but is this the best chance to kill the old old deer that are all but completely nocturnal especially after they feel even the slightest hunting pressure??? side note: i have no intention of trying it, pushing deer just doesnt feel the same to me as figuring them out, hanging stands and fooling them to walk, unknowingly, within 40 yards of me. but that is just me and i wanted all of your opinions on the subject??


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## Liv2Hunt8 (Sep 1, 2010)

I would never do that. WAY too loud walking around in the woods. But, you are right that the big monsters are sooo smart that they will wait for you to walk basically right next to you then once you walk a ways by then they will jump up and run away. They didn't get that big for being dumb... This actually happened to my uncle this year. He was making a drive for me and he said he was walking by and he jumped a monster. All I heard was a close gunshot and I knew it was him. He said that (choice word) deer waited for me to walk right (choice word) right past him to jump up. When I got the gun up I realized I still had my scope power on 10 when he was 50 yards away. I squeezed a round off and didn't hit him. He was pissed to say the least. lol. But yeah, especially in Bluff country of Wisconsin where the deer can see from a ways away, I wouldn't do that unless it was a drive with multiple standers. just my 2 cents. I'm strictly a stand hunter.


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## Rory/MO (Jan 13, 2008)

I don't think it's the best way to kill a true giant. I think you up you're chances on a monster by putting no pressure on him at all.


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## outdoorsman3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Liv2Hunt8 said:


> I would never do that. WAY too loud walking around in the woods. But, you are right that the big monsters are sooo smart that they will wait for you to walk basically right next to you then once you walk a ways by then they will jump up and run away. They didn't get that big for being dumb... This actually happened to my uncle this year. He was making a drive for me and he said he was walking by and he jumped a monster. All I heard was a close gunshot and I knew it was him. He said that (choice word) deer waited for me to walk right (choice word) right past him to jump up. When I got the gun up I realized I still had my scope power on 10 when he was 50 yards away. I squeezed a round off and didn't hit him. He was pissed to say the least. lol. But yeah, especially in Bluff country of Wisconsin where the deer can see from a ways away, I wouldn't do that unless it was a drive with multiple standers. just my 2 cents. I'm strictly a stand hunter.


thats what i say, big ones dont get big by being stupid.


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## Indianayounggun (Feb 11, 2010)

i can see where you are coming from there too Rory but it just has seemed to me that this is how the majority of these big boys getting killed so i was just wondering ha


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

gun hunting and most hunting in general is all luck... walking with a gun allows you the ability to push very thick cover that the deer hold close too and allows shots...

here in mn i've seen one nig buck taken with a bow where i live.. but i've seen about 30 good 150"+ deer taken with guns.. but you have to remember, with a rifle you have a 500yd range or farther and with a shotgun/muzzleloader you have a 200yd range


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## hunter14 (Oct 14, 2009)

Where my dad and I rifle hunt, the only way TO hunt is to push bush! I like it and sometimes its very rewarding. I dont stand hunt while I have a gun. My dad and I cover lots of ground and when we see something worth going after we give it a shot!










My dad and i pushed the bush above my dads shoulder and from 250 yards or so my dad hit this guy, He jumped and ran the wrong way.

Like I said. The area I gun hunt, the only way to shoot a deer is to push, and I'll stick to it!










This is what the land looks like, In the morning or evenings will get on a hill and watch them. Then hopefully plan a stock and hammer him at 200 or so.


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## Ignition kid (Oct 7, 2008)

don't think that's the true way to be able to harvest a big MATURE buck, although it can be done that way but that kinda takes a sum of the challenge out of the whole hunting experience. I belive that during the pre-rut and during the rut are the key times to be out searching for mature bucks and to me during the rut I wouldn't want to be shooting does because you got to remember that those does are your bait and that's what will bring in the bucks and also I really like to use my grunt tube and I think that it's always best to have a snort whjeeze or now how to make a snort wheeze sound since if you see a mature buck out of bow range I bet 90% of the time if you snort wheeze at them that they will come in on a string to you and I have been caught a few times without a snort wheeze when a mature buck was out of bow range. Also I have as well as my dad have figured out that rattling does do pretty well when we were in Ohio since it doesn't just draw in the big bucks but also some of the ones that aren't as mature. But anyways that's my opinion on it and some advice on what I have learned so far.


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## isaacdahl (Feb 27, 2010)

Indianayounggun said:


> I dont know if i have just been totally oblivious to this in past years but almost all of the true giant deer that people i know killed this year (180 or more) were killed by gun hunters that killed these deer by just walking through the woods and jumping a giant out of his bed and getting lucky enough to get a shot at him or having people push deer out of their bed to posters that were waiting for them at a pinch point, crossing, etc. So i started to ponder on this, and want to know what you guys think. Is stalking through bedding areas and pushing deer the best chance that people hold of killing the "true giant" deer that leave bedding areas to roam the woods ONLY after daylight hours. I know that it is basically out of the question for people that bowhunt only and that it would pretty much mess up an area if it was done very much at all but is this the best chance to kill the old old deer that are all but completely nocturnal especially after they feel even the slightest hunting pressure??? side note: i have no intention of trying it, pushing deer just doesnt feel the same to me as figuring them out, hanging stands and fooling them to walk, unknowingly, within 40 yards of me. but that is just me and i wanted all of your opinions on the subject??


I suppose most of the pictures we see and stories we hear are about gun hunting for the fact that there are a lot more gun hunters than bowhunters. 

I personally don't really care to gun hunt (not that I'm better than anyone who does). I gun hunt mostly in hopes of filling the freezer, but I enjoy to bowhunt more for the challenge. I have never shot a deer with a gun but when I gun hunt I almost feel like I'm "cheating" (if that makes any sense). I prefer to scout and hang stands etc. (all the things that bowhuntings about).

The other thing I like about bowhunting is that it's unique. Just about anyone could go out with a dozen guys and blast away at every deer they see (I don't mean to offend anyone because I'm probably guilty of doing this also). So shooting a deer (or any animal) with a bow lets everyone know that I had to work and practice for it, and that I'm about hunting all year long (3D, practicing in the backyard, scouting, handing stands, etc.) not just that 1 week out of the year. Which I suppose there are some serious gun hunters out there that do the same (shooting skeet (which I very much enjoy doing also) and just about everything else that I mentioned about bowhunting) but it's just not like that with the majority of gun hunters I know.

And to make it fair, there are also a lot of bowhunters that only start to practice for bow season a week or so in advance. You get my point.

Good topic:wink:.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ok... let me start off by clearing something up. What you're all talking about IS NOT STALKING. It's the style of hunting that's been going on for a few centuries now, ever since the rifle became so accurate and available. 

Stalking and still hunting, what I do when hunting, is a matter of slipping through the woods very slowly, very quietly, where the goal is to come upon deer and get close enough for a shot. You move very little, almost as if you were stationary. That's stalking, and is older and more akin to "what bowhunting is all about" than going out and hanging stands, I promise you. 

Now, what you're refering to is pushing in the hopes of getting a shot at whatever yardage (usually quite a distance) with a rifle. This method of hunting is extremely effective, but not very sporting, because any fellow who's even remotely adept at shooting a rifle can make quick work of any deer in the area. It's this style of hunting that endangered game all over because it was so effective.

I do not, however, think it's necessarily the "best" method for getting big bucks (and certainly not the most sporting). Mostly because animals are just as diverse as people, and some of those smart ones won't let you pull it off (that's how they get old and big). As someone already mentioned, a great deal of luck goes into this method. However it's a very popular one because it requires so little skill as far as hunting goes. Some folks apply the same tracking and scouting skills to tip the scales in their favor with this method, but these folks are the minority by far, and can be considered dedicated hunters because of it.

Please do not dismiss all ground hunters as so sloppy. I hate hunting from a tree and what I do is in no way a reflection of this.


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## isaacdahl (Feb 27, 2010)

Sorry Kegan. I guess I didn't think about still hunting. You and people that apply methods such as traditional archery and still hunting are what archery is really about.

Back to the OP: What it seems come down to is not the way people hunt, but the hunter themselves.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

isaacdahl said:


> Sorry Kegan. I guess I didn't think about still hunting. You and people that apply methods such as traditional archery and still hunting are what archery is really about.


No worries. And still hunting and stalking or traditional archery isn't the "end all". Ethically pursuing game with an arrow is what it's about. Whether you use a compound or a stickbow, your range is still alot less than with a rifle (60 yards or less... usually less). Get close is the name of the game.


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## Indianayounggun (Feb 11, 2010)

kegan, i am really sorry for using the word stalk, i completely understand what you mean by the still-hunting and stalking in the way that you explained it. i will fully admit that i have tried to still hunt a woods and it has never worked out for me and is alot harder than i ever thought it would be. but that isnt what i really meant, i meant the act of pushingdeer out of there bedding areas to posters and i commend you on your hunting style and am very jealous of your success at it haha


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## Liv2Hunt8 (Sep 1, 2010)

200 yard range with a shotgun??? you out of your mind or just plain stupid? If you take 200 yard shots with a shotgun I am going to go out on a limb and call you unethical. Unless you have a high powered scope and one hell of an accurate shotgun, you are really dumb to take 200 yard shotgun shots if you want to kill the game you're after. Sorry but that's just dumb...Muzzleloaders are a little different in that your round travels at a higher rate of speed and has a flatter trajectory. At least where I hunt, the cover is so thick, you're looking at a 100 yard max. Plus it depends if its a 20, 16, 12 or 10 gauge...


N7709K said:


> gun hunting and most hunting in general is all luck... walking with a gun allows you the ability to push very thick cover that the deer hold close too and allows shots...
> 
> here in mn i've seen one nig buck taken with a bow where i live.. but i've seen about 30 good 150"+ deer taken with guns.. but you have to remember, with a rifle you have a 500yd range or farther and with a shotgun/muzzleloader you have a 200yd range


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Liv2Hunt8 said:


> 200 yard range with a shotgun??? you out of your mind or just plain stupid? If you take 200 yard shots with a shotgun I am going to go out on a limb and call you unethical. Unless you have a high powered scope and one hell of an accurate shotgun, you are really dumb to take 200 yard shotgun shots if you want to kill the game you're after. Sorry but that's just dumb...Muzzleloaders are a little different in that your round travels at a higher rate of speed and has a flatter trajectory. At least where I hunt, the cover is so thick, you're looking at a 100 yard max. Plus it depends if its a 20, 16, 12 or 10 gauge...


First off, what gives you the right to call some one unethical if they shoot 200yds with a shotgun or would? 

do you condemn rifle hunters who shoot 800-1000yds unethical too? 

a fully riffled slug gun with proper slugs is very capable of taking deer at 200yds. to shoot that far you have to know what your doing, know your equipment inside and out, and be a good shot.


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## Liv2Hunt8 (Sep 1, 2010)

N7709K said:


> First off, what gives you the right to call some one unethical if they shoot 200yds with a shotgun or would?
> 
> do you condemn rifle hunters who shoot 800-1000yds unethical too?
> 
> a fully riffled slug gun with proper slugs is very capable of taking deer at 200yds. to shoot that far you have to know what your doing, know your equipment inside and out, and be a good shot.


NO Crap. But I'm saying I don't know of alot of hunters that use deer specific shotguns and long range scoped shotguns for that matter. Most people shooting shotguns in Wisconsin are either kids or people in Shotgun/handgun only zones. And a 200 yard shot is definitely pushing the realm of ethicality. I've seen many deer shot by friends and neighbors with a shotgun from 100 yards + that have been wounded and never found. It may be just the skill of that particular gunman, but 200 yards for a iron sight 870 pump regular old 12 gauge is not ethical. You may have some fancy scoped rifled deal but still, why 200 yards? And the reason for shots being took up to 800 yards at deer/ other game is because of the ballistics! Look at the ballistics of a 12 gauge slug as compared to a long range caliber such as a .300 Win Mag, .300 WSM, .338 Lapua Mag, and so on. I don't care how you put it, the absolute longest range I would ever, and maybe others would agree, would be MAYBE 150 yards. That's with my 870 pump 12 gauge w/ iron sights. I most likely wouldn't even take a shot with a 12 gauge from any more than 200 yards with a scoped shotgun.... Period.


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## Liv2Hunt8 (Sep 1, 2010)

oh, and you're probably thinking why hasn't he came back with a response earlier? I was at a wrestling meet.


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## hunter14 (Oct 14, 2009)

Liv2Hunt8 said:


> oh, and you're probably thinking why hasn't he came back with a response earlier? I was at a wrestling meet.


Congrats man!! 

With todays technology, I'm sure there are shotguns that allow someone to shoot 200 yards. Im no Muzzleloader/shotgun hunter but im sure there is a gun out there.

And maybe your friends/neighbours have to learn how to aim behind the front should, because at 100 yards, with a shotgun, thats pretty much a done deal (especially witha newer gun)

Witht eh right gun, slug, scope, shooter, ect. It can happen. I bet if you ahd a scope, you would feel more comfortable with taking longer shots (whatever that may be)


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Let me see if I have this straight, you don't see an 800yd rifle shot unethical due to balistics, but a 200yd shot with a shotgun is unethical? I guess I'm missing the logic in that. For most rifles 800yds is a poke and hope shot, a 200yd shot with a shotgun is a stretch and right at the edge of the guns range(or past it depending on the gun and or slugs) but it can be done. 

Brett, I'm with you on the 100yds thing... even if the slug doesn't mushroom at all as long as it somewhat holds together and goes through the vitals, you got a dead deer at 100yds

To the op, sorry for getting sidetracked


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Indianayounggun- Again, no worries and no hard feelings. I came across a lot harsher than I intended. I also know stalking and still hunting aren't for everyone. It's one of the few things I've ever picked up naturally, but it takes a lot of work and care. It's also no where near as effective as a drive or push.

Anyway. As for long range shots they'll always be debated. In the end it's not really hunting to me, but shooting. That's why alot of folks get into bowhunting- it's more about the hunt. Regardless of the style of bow, you'll always have to get closer to get the job done. My brother practices the same thing with his rifles even. Perhaps it's because we've never really seen the use for long range shots growing up around here, but there's certainly no need for them if you're willing to put the effort into getting close.


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## Ignition kid (Oct 7, 2008)

If you shoot a slug out of yours it can, Savage makes a bolt action 20 guage shotgun and they were shooting at the largest 3" groups at 250 yards.


Liv2Hunt8 said:


> 200 yard range with a shotgun??? you out of your mind or just plain stupid? If you take 200 yard shots with a shotgun I am going to go out on a limb and call you unethical. Unless you have a high powered scope and one hell of an accurate shotgun, you are really dumb to take 200 yard shotgun shots if you want to kill the game you're after. Sorry but that's just dumb...Muzzleloaders are a little different in that your round travels at a higher rate of speed and has a flatter trajectory. At least where I hunt, the cover is so thick, you're looking at a 100 yard max. Plus it depends if its a 20, 16, 12 or 10 gauge...


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## Ignition kid (Oct 7, 2008)

+1, my grandfather shot a buck with a .325 short mag (also his elk gun) at 600 yards (he practices out to 700 yards with it) and the deer went 20 yards and he made a great shot on it. And that was with a 3-9x42 leupold scope.


N7709K said:


> Let me see if I have this straight, you don't see an 800yd rifle shot unethical due to balistics, but a 200yd shot with a shotgun is unethical? I guess I'm missing the logic in that. For most rifles 800yds is a poke and hope shot, a 200yd shot with a shotgun is a stretch and right at the edge of the guns range(or past it depending on the gun and or slugs) but it can be done.
> 
> Brett, I'm with you on the 100yds thing... even if the slug doesn't mushroom at all as long as it somewhat holds together and goes through the vitals, you got a dead deer at 100yds
> 
> To the op, sorry for getting sidetracked


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## huntingfishing (Aug 16, 2010)

Ignition kid said:


> If you shoot a slug out of yours it can, Savage makes a bolt action 20 guage shotgun and they were shooting at the largest 3" groups at 250 yards.


i disagree, there is almost no way you can shoot a shotgun slug with a 3 inch group at 250 even with a rifled barrel. Im with liv2hunt8, no way is a 200+ yard shot with a shotgun have a high chance of killing the game you are after


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