# creep tuning one cam bows



## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Can one cam bows like mathews with minimax cam be creep tuned 
I know how to do 2 cam bows and cam half how do you do one cam ?
thank you for info


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

redman said:


> Can one cam bows like mathews with minimax cam be creep tuned
> I know how to do 2 cam bows and cam half how do you do one cam ?
> thank you for info


Not really... The only thing that can be done on a MiniMax is to have a Draw Stop installed. I offer this service of course...  This is VERY effective. My tests have verified that small difference in how much you pull into the wall a 5 FPS difference. The draw stop eliminates this 100%.

There is not really a "timing" that can be adjusted on a single cam, but rather cam position. Typically the cam position is only going to effect the draw length & poundage of the bow.

-Adam


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

adam Guggisberg said:


> Not really... The only thing that can be done on a MiniMax is to have a Draw Stop installed. I offer this service of course...  This is VERY effective. My tests have verified that small difference in how much you pull into the wall a 5 FPS difference. The draw stop eliminates this 100%.
> 
> There is not really a "timing" that can be adjusted on a single cam, but rather cam position. Typically the cam position is only going to effect the draw length & poundage of the bow.
> 
> -Adam


:mg:Wow, I beg to differ....there is cam timing on a single cam bow!
Call it what you will but in my mind cam rotation_* is*_ cam timing.
Timing effects the total efficency of how the bow performs....makes it quiet, easy to tune, and gives maximun performance.


Go to the Mathews Website. Scroll down to the Mini-Max cam picture.
I've printed all of these off and placed them in my archery maintinence book for reference.
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/archery-4/technical-faq-28/cam-rotations-40837/

Just remember that your bow will need to be at max poundage and in the #1 string post before you check it.
Before I time a bow, I always remove the string and cable to verify their lenghts are correct. If you don't, you're wasting your time.

Make sure the bow hits peak poundage too, then chase down brace height and Axel to Axel. Bare in mind that most companies list bow specs as a "guide", meaning a good place to start.
So don't get bent out of shape if the numbers don't hit exactly on the mark.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

nag, while I agree with you as far as cam timing, Redman is asking about cam creep tuning. On a hybrid 2-cam bow, cam creep tuning allows you to time one cam to the other. I don't think you can do this with an idler wheel. One of the things I like about a solocam is the relative simplicity of tuning compared to a 2-cam bow.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

nag said:


> :mg:Wow, I beg to differ....there is cam timing on a single cam bow!
> Call it what you will but in my mind cam rotation_* is*_ cam timing.
> Timing effects the total efficency of how the bow performs....makes it quiet, easy to tune, and gives maximun performance.
> 
> ...


Again, as originally stated. This is cam position, not timing. Twist the string or cable until you are blue in the face & it has nothing to do with "creep tuning".

As you mentioned, the diagram shows the "ideal POSITION" for the cam when baselined in the #1 position.. When you move the string to the #2 position, what happens to the cam position? :teeth:

Draw length is shortened & poundage drops slightly. Timing is still dead on becuase there is no such thing as timing on a single cam....  You would need to readjust your nockpoint with any change of cam position.... I have a nice section with some really good videos covering this on www.ArcheryLessonsOnline.com under the members area,

-Adam


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

*Creep vs. Human*

I think it's safe to say very few humans can (or do) draw a bow to EXACTLY the same place every time. So any attempt at "creep tuning" whether on a solo cam or otherwise becomes subjective. On a 2 cam bow, any timing difference issues between the cams is aggravated by an inconsistent draw.

When the difference in draw of 1/8" to 1/4" becomes significant in the performance of the arrow, a Shooting Machine is the ONLY way to consistently draw the bow. Or change the draw in small, controlled increments to see what such a small change in draw will do.

Yes, good solid backwalls and drawstops can do MOST of the consistency job, but when you hit the stop(s) are you always pulling with the same tension? For most tuning, drawstops will suffice. It just comes down to "how exact do I want to be?'


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Creep tuning is done so that your bow will shoot the same elevation whether you are pulling hard into the stops or creeping forward a little. With a two cam bow, it's done by twisting and untwisting the cables. 

With a single cam bow, it's done by adjusting tiller. I don't recall the details, but you can figure it out by adjusting one way and if that doesn't work, go the other way.

Creep tuning by tiller or twisting keeps your bow from rocking up or down in your hand from an inconsistent pull.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

aread said:


> Creep tuning is done so that your bow will shoot the same elevation whether you are pulling hard into the stops or creeping forward a little. With a two cam bow, it's done by twisting and untwisting the cables.
> 
> With a single cam bow, it's done by adjusting tiller. I don't recall the details, but you can figure it out by adjusting one way and if that doesn't work, go the other way.
> 
> Creep tuning by tiller or twisting keeps your bow from rocking up or down in your hand from an inconsistent pull.


Tiller has NOTHING to do with creep tuning as it pertains to a single cam bow. Changing tiller would effect the timing on a classic 2 cam bow, but not on a single cam or a hybrid. Tiller will effect nockpoint on any bow.

Tiller tuning serves 2 main functions. It allows you to make minor changes in nockpoint & grip angle. The grip angle will efect how the bow aims or you.


Creep tuning as it pertains to a dual cam or hybrid is simply a "results oriented" manner of identifying proper cam timing. 



-Adam


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

adam Guggisberg said:


> Tiller has NOTHING to do with creep tuning as it pertains to a single cam bow. Changing tiller would effect the timing on a classic 2 cam bow, but not on a single cam or a hybrid. Tiller will effect nockpoint on any bow.
> 
> Tiller tuning serves 2 main functions. It allows you to make minor changes in nockpoint & grip angle. The grip angle will efect how the bow aims or you.
> 
> ...


Adam,

You are right that creep tuning a single cam does nothing to the cam timing or orientation. However, you do get the same results by adjusting the tiller. 

You do have to adjust the nock point the same as you do with two cams and you are pulling hard into the wall and creeping. It's a different but similar process and you get the same results; a bow that shoots the same elevation no matter how inconsistent your pull.

Obviously, you want to be close before you start or you will end up with other problems from to large differences in tiller.

Give it a try, you might be surprised.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

Not to argue, just good conversation on this topic.... I think these are some of the best threads...

I am looking at it from a fundamental perspective. When creep tuning a hybrid or 2 cam bow, the nockpoint is not a factor, the CAM timing is. It's an effort to synchronize the draw stops on the 2 cams...

Based on the fact that changing tiller is simply making an adjustment to the nockpoint, I would suggest that this is a tuning method pertaining to arrow grouping & not associated with timing necessarily.

I do not disagree in the fact that minor nockpoint adjusts can easily resolve issues with arrow flight, but fundamentally it falls under nockpoint adjustment, not timing.

-Adam


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Adam,

I agree that these can be some of the best treads with the best information coming out.

The goal of creep tuning is to adjust the bow so that variations in how hard you pull don't effect the elevation of the arrow impact. With a creep tuned bow, we can get away with slightly less than perfect execution. It won't make us shoot as good as Reo or Ditmar, but our bad shots are not quite as bad as with a bow that is not creep tuned. To put it a little more plainly, when you pull hard into the stops, your scope doesn't rise or dip.

Creep tuning 2 cam and cam 1/2 bows is done by twisting the cables to achieve a cam timing that optimizes the balance of the bow.

Creep tuning a single cam is done for the same result, but cam timing / orientation has very little to do with it (assuming that the bow is close to start with). You shoot hard and soft shots and adjust the tiller to keep the scope still with variations in pull. This is not the end of the single cam tuning process, just one step.

Obviously, it would be better if we could exert exactly the same force on every shot, but we're human and it's not going to happen 100% of the time. Creep tuning helps your scope stays still so you don't pay quite as high a price for a poor shot.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

When a bow is out of time, pulling on the wall at different tension will change the impact point of the arrow. When pulling on the wall if the bow is out of time, it will pull the nocking point up or down under different tension. Creep tuning helps to get the bow in perfect timing so the nocking point won't change with different tension against the wall.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

This is some great info. Creep tuning a 2 cam bow works used it a lot 
Just started shooting a one cam bow and i am going to give this a try and see what i get . Thank every one for great info See you doint need a new bow to shoot better


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## jrip (May 19, 2008)

adam Guggisberg said:


> Not to argue, just good conversation on this topic.... I think these are some of the best threads...
> 
> I am looking at it from a fundamental perspective. When creep tuning a hybrid or 2 cam bow, the nockpoint is not a factor, the CAM timing is. It's an effort to synchronize the draw stops on the 2 cams...
> 
> ...


One point overlooked is that every twist or 1/2 twist that you add/remove to the control cable or buss cable on a 2 cam bow or hybrid cam bow is adjusting the nock point as well as cam sync. There is physically no way around it.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

jrip said:


> One point overlooked is that every twist or 1/2 twist that you add/remove to the control cable or buss cable on a 2 cam bow or hybrid cam bow is adjusting the nock point as well as cam sync. There is physically no way around it.


Agreed. The movement of the nockpoint is a side effect of this process, but not the reason for the change or the reason behind the creep tuning process on a hybrid or 2 cam bow.. 

The point I was trying to make regarding the single cam is that TILLER changes are effectively a nockpoint change, which is fundamentally different than creep tuning on a 2 cam system.


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