# 3 fingers under - Split Finger?



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Has anybody else found split finger more comfortable over 3 under?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by comfortable. 

Is it the way the bow feels at full draw?
Is it the way your body feels?

For me...it pretty much feels the same because my anchor and body alignment are still the same.

I personally chose Split Finger when I started because I knew I wanted to be able to do some trick shooting and I found Split Finger gives me more control over my arrow.

Ray


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by comfortable.
> 
> Is it the way the bow feels at full draw?
> Is it the way your body feels?
> ...


My anchor is same place and sight picture at full draw is easier but Bow felt very different on release, unbalanced for a better word.

Ray do most Longbows shoot 3 under in IBO??


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> My anchor is same place and sight picture at full draw is easier but Bow felt very different on release, unbalanced for a better word.
> 
> Ray do most Longbows shoot 3 under in IBO??


Ahhhhhh...now I gotchya.

I agree. Most, if not all the bows I have shot feel different when you switch between releases.

Ya know...I'm not sure what most competitive archers use for a release with a longbow...but I do know it's very common to see a large number of top shooters in a big archery competition using 3 Under...generally speaking.

Ray


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Buddies of mine went to the IBO worlds, recently (ALL 4 finished in the top 10). My hunting partner shot with Rod Jenkins on the final day (modern longbow) and told me over 75% shot 3-under.

Take it with a grain of salt.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Split vs. 3-under...it's the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I switched to 3-under with hunting bows in the later 60's when using 3-under for bowhunting was considered highly oddball. 

For several years I used the split-finger method because that was the norm, and at 25 yards I could shoot very good groups. It was my experimenting with "string walking" that I discovered that using 3-under, my accuracy was better and my groups were more consistent. I also became more aware that my release hand was more relaxed, I could use less finger hook, and my release was smoother.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

I cant stand 3 under, I feel like I have so little control. So yeah it is a personal choice really. I have been shooting split for years now and havent looked back.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Steve - 

There are three things that may be going on. First and most obvious is that you just weren't used to it. Like most changes, thing that feel "great" right off the bat, might not be and things that don't, might be after a few weeks or months.

Second, did you retune the bow bow for 3-under. Usually it's just moving the nocking point up a bit, but there "might" be a slight change in draw length that may have to be dealt with as well.

Lastly, and the wording has to be careful here, you're shooting a custom bow, right? I know your bowyer knows what he's doing, but it's possible that with all the tillering nonsense going on today, he may have "over tillered" it for split? For some people 0/0 or neutral may be too little when going to 3 under. 

BTW - yeah, I'm one of the guys who likes split and fall into category 1.

Sorry buddy, I have no idea what the IBO guys are doing - 

Viper1 out.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks Viper, it's easy to tune a Recurve for 3 under specially if it's ILF, I also got my Saluki Ibex tuned to shoot nice using 3 under but the Longbow just doesn't feel quite right no matter what I do with nocking point.

Somebody said Ken Redding still shoots split finger, I was just curious about IBO shooters, it's obvious 3 under has an aiming advantage as I can see that when I shoot Recurves but wondered why it feels so different when trying with Longbow, I'll ask my Bowyer how he sets the tiller in his Bows as Viper has a good point there.

Thanks


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## Celtic Dragon (Jan 4, 2009)

Steve, I wouldn't be suprised if Andy says its down to the materials.

A longbow only has so much compression and flex in it due to the material and it being 1 piece of wood. A recurve limb is a laminate of muliple layers and materials and alot thinner so can flex more, but take more pressure before failure.

Least thats my theory.

PS: I can shoot both methods, but find 3 under easier.


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## Clang! (Sep 29, 2007)

I've been trying to shoot three under for about a month now with mixed success. It does feels very odd compared to split finger; noisier, less fluid, and less comfortable. 

My results so far are mixed. My groups are noticably tighter with the flyers being less severe, but I'm shooting more flyers.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Clang! said:


> I've been trying to shoot three under for about a month now with mixed success. It does feels very odd compared to split finger; noisier, less fluid, and less comfortable.
> 
> My results so far are mixed. My groups are noticably tighter with the flyers being less severe, but I'm shooting more flyers.


Do you know if the oddness you're feeling is causing inconsistantcies in your form or actually making you flinch?

If so...you might want to work on feel at the blank bale until it feels more natural to you.

Ray


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I am not the least surprised that using a 3-under release on your bow did not feel right or shoot good. As Viper1 implied, it is not reasonable to expect that you would know whether or not you like 3-under with just a few shots from a bow that is not set up for 3-under.

I have 1 bow out of my inventory that is tillered for 3-under, but when bow and arrows are properly tuned for 3-under I have never been able to detect any difference in the performance of my bows that are not tillered for 3-under.

Personally, I would not be as concerned about the tiller as I would in setting up (tuning) the bow and form for 3-under. 3-under shot arrows _generally_ cannot be shot off of a shelf. An elevated rest, a higher string nock setting (5/8" to 1/2"+), and a bit of arrow-nock tweaking is required _for starters_


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I shoot 3 under....and I've never had a bow that was tillered for 3 under.

Tune.....and don't worry about it.


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

I shoot 3 under, and tillering a bow for 3 under is a joke. It does not matter. You may have to raise the nock point but that is it. I love how complicated people make this stuff.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Personally, I would not be as concerned about the tiller as I would in setting up (tuning) the bow and form for 3-under. 3-under shot arrows _generally_ cannot be shot off of a shelf. An elevated rest, a higher string nock setting (5/8" to 1/2"+), and a bit of arrow-nock tweaking is required _for starters_



Guys I'm not shooting 3 under for the first time as I've shoot 3 under with my Winstar with elevated rest and my Saluki Ibex off the shelf with no problems so

A; I know how to setup for 3 under. 
B; 3 under is not new to me.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Guys I'm not shooting 3 under for the first time as I've shoot 3 under with my Winstar with elevated rest and my Saluki Ibex off the shelf with no problems so
> 
> A; I know how to setup for 3 under.
> B; 3 under is not new to me.





> _Has anybody else found split finger more comfortable over 3 under?_


I see! Just a bit of misunderstanding.


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## flatbow1 (May 3, 2009)

I believe it will be personal preference....I feel more comfortable shooting split. Dont know why. My dad shot split for over 20 years, and about 10 years ago he went to 3 under....he does shoot a little different than I do, he shoots point-aim.


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## flatbow1 (May 3, 2009)

I'd like to add, I hope at 81 years of age I'l be able to shoot period.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I'd like to add, I hope at _*81 years of age *_I'l be able to shoot period.


A huge "thumb up" to your dad.:thumbs_up


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## flatbow1 (May 3, 2009)

Gives me an idea Windwalker....I'm gonna see if he wants to fling a few this weekend. God bless.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

i shoot 3 under. i can do the split finger thing. its so weird to me and i shoot bad doing it.

so for me 3 finger under is better. probally just like everything else. shoot what works for you.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

As for 3-under, I find it more comfortable, as the total of finger's width is less (no arrow nock spacing) - meaning less pinch for my given string angle. Additionally, it puts the nock anchor higher for my anchor position, aligning the arrow more evenly.

My groupings on instinctive shooting are great using 3-under. It was all I used and liked. 

Now, I started shooting another bow with sight for distance. I ran out of sight real quick. Going back to split-finger put me back on target. 

Now, I have tried shooting instinctive split-finger so as to remain consistent between the two shooting methods, and I am having to relearn instinctive with split-finger. The POA is totally different.

How do some folks switch back and forth without much practice on the switch?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> How do some folks switch back and forth without much practice on the switch?


I can pretty much guarentee if an archer is switching back and forth without any issues...they are most likely using the arrow as a conscious aiming reference...even if it's blurred within their periphial vision OR they are able to make the switch by only shooting at close distances.

The other possibility is that they are a freak of nature  and have a gift of EXCEPTIONAL hand and eye coordination.

Total Instinctive aiming primarily relies on proprioception and the closer the arrow tip is to being on target the more the conscious mind will be aware of it.

Ray


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Total Instinctive aiming primarily relies on proprioception and the closer the arrow tip is to being on target the more the conscious mind will be aware of it.
> 
> Ray


Thanks, Ray. This is exactly what I lost. The arrow tip was always there and closer to being on target with 3-under, at least for me and in the back of my mind. Now, with split-finger, I can't tell where the heck the arrow point is in relation to the target. After some rounds tonight, things are getting better, but regaining the confidence level I did have is further down the road.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> The other possibility is that they are a freak of nature
> 
> Ray


Thats me lol

On another forum they didn't believe I use one basic gap 20-40 yards, I explained it was to do with the way I blend Gap\instinct and the way my brain is wired more than the Bows performance or defying the laws of balistics.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Thats me lol
> 
> On another forum they didn't believe I use one basic gap 20-40 yards, I explained it was to do with the way I blend Gap\instinct and the way my brain is wired more than the Bows performance or defying the laws of balistics.


So your gap at 20yrds. is exactly the same as 40yrds.?

Where is your arrow point at 20yrds. and 40yrds.?

Ray


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> So your gap at 20yrds. is exactly the same as 40yrds.?
> 
> Where is your arrow point at 20yrds. and 40yrds.?
> 
> Ray


28" below the target, the gap is set and forgot as I switch focus more to instinct to zone in on the kill, The gap part of my aiming is just a basic get me on the target and fine tune with instinct.

The large gap is a pain on an off day but make life easy when things are working well. Being a Field Archer it's easy to set up as I'm shooting marked distances and a know size target face, think my aiming system has allowed me to shoot both Field and 3D with good success.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> 28" below the target, the gap is set and forgot as I switch focus more to instinct to zone in on the kill, The gap part of my aiming is just a basic get me on the target and fine tune with instinct.


Sounds like we aim very similarly....except I have no idea EXACTLY how much my gap is for a specific distance. The only distance where I know EXACTLY where my tip is...is my Point On distance at 95yrds.

So when you shoot at a target whether it's 20yrds. or 40yrds., you will set your point 28" below your target and than let it move subconsciously into the EXACT position it needs to be for that particular target?



steve morley said:


> my aiming system has allowed me to shoot both Field and 3D with good success.


I think our style of aiming is one of the best all around aiming techniques there is. I can shoot trick shots, field, 3D, American Round and NFAA 300 rounds pretty well with only one aiming technique...unless the target is near 95yrds.

Ray


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

My point on is 60 yards, I think 95 yards is just FREAKY  lol


I agree it's simple but effective aiming system, glad I'm not the only freak around here. lol


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## pgkirk (Mar 12, 2009)

I am new to this and was struggling with this same question..which is better. Split felt better to me, however I am so much more accurate with 3 under so that's what I've been doing.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Steve, as to your original question - Ken Redding who has won the IBO Worlds several times and been shooter of the year several times in Longbow shoots split finger.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Steve, as to your original question - Ken Redding who has won the IBO Worlds several times and been shooter of the year several times in Longbow shoots split finger


Apparently, the split-finger release works best....for Ken Redding.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Apparently, the split-finger release works best....for Ken Redding.


worked pretty well for me also 

I started off split finger, I can see the advantages of 3 under but split finger works best for me with Longbow and POC's, 3 under with Recurve and Carbons is a perfect match.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I started using the 3-under method just after God created Earth, but I still recall that ease of tuning and accuracy using the 3-under vs. split, at least for me, improved 3-fold.


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## Fortes et Liber (Jul 26, 2009)

What's the problem associated with shooting three-under off the shelf?


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## Fortes et Liber (Jul 26, 2009)

Well, I'm off to the archery range in a few minutes to try three-under for the first time -- here's hoping I don't put an arrow through my forearm...


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## SoCalArcher (May 22, 2009)

Two under for me.


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## Fortes et Liber (Jul 26, 2009)

Tried it today -- did not care for it at all. I really don't get how others do it sucessfully, other than perhaps it's very dependent on a person's head dimensions and mine isn't right for it.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Fortes et Liber said:


> Tried it today -- did not care for it at all. I really don't get how others do it sucessfully, other than perhaps it's very dependent on a person's head dimensions and mine isn't right for it.


I'm back to split-finger now, but was shooting 3-under for awhile. For me, as with others, it was a very natural feel to switch to 3-under. It didn't take much breaking in and felt very comfortable. Like most things in archery, one way doesn't fit all. If you don't like it, don't fight to develop it unless you feel you have to.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _*Tried it today *-- did not care for it at all._


What did you determine in the short experiment?


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

When I started out, I shot split with index in corner of mouth because that was what I saw everyone else doing. I read about 3 under and would try it, but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. I started anchoring with middle finger in mouth and it was better, but still not great. Then when I hurt my index finger, I tried 3 under because I could still shoot without hurting my finger that way. After about a week, my shooting improved. Then, I took it up another notch and started shooting 3 under with middle finger in mouth. I have shot better than I ever have with this method. I guess it's true with the whole, arrow close to eye thing. Helps me a lot. I'm generally instinctive, but will probably start experimenting with gap shooting. With the little I've done, it seems to work a little better for me...


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## Fortes et Liber (Jul 26, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> What did you determine in the short experiment?


I could not find an anchor point in order to get the arrow under my line of sight.


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## Floatsum (Jan 14, 2010)

SoCalArcher said:


> Two under for me.


*X2* 

Middle finger, corner of mouth (80% pull?)
Ring finger, along for the ride (20% pull?)
Thumb knuckle to earlobe
Index showing the way


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I could not find an anchor point in order to get the arrow under my line of sight.


?..


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Fortes et Liber said:


> I could not find an anchor point in order to get the arrow under my line of sight.


In many cases....'change' often feels un-natural and doesn't immediately produce the results we might want until it no longer feels un-natural through practice.

This is often why a super light bow is good. By using a super light bow an archer can concentrate 100% on areas of their form that feel un-natural or awkward at first. It also allows you to get into positions that you may struggle with...with a heavier bow.

There should be a place you can anchor with 3 Under that places the arrow under your line of sight. It just may feel to awkward or to uncomfortable getting there with your current bow....and even than...you may not like it or feel it fits your goals.

Have you tried or found a coach/mentor yet?

Ray :shade:


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