# paper problem after walkback



## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

i paper tuned my bow and got it pretty close, walkback tuned and i'm hiting in a straight line but now my paper is about 1 inch nock right tear. ontarget says my arrow is about perfect. why is this happening, is it a problem? what can i do?


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## TheCommander (Mar 10, 2007)

shouldnt be problem unless or until hunting season and you go to broadheads. i dont really care how the arrow gets there so long as it gets to where im aiming. it isnt unusual for your paper tune to be bad after walkback tuning after all you moved the rest to compensate didnt you? so therefore paper tune is going to be off. use the paper to get close then walk back tune and believe in it.


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## ButchrCrekHuntr (Mar 26, 2005)

Paper tuning is only a starting point in the tuning process and is only useful for checking the nock point setting (recovering paper tuneaholic). Walk back is the most accurate way to go for setting your center shot.


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## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

The reason is that your sight can actually have the windage a few clicks off where it seems to you that it shoots ok at 20 yards but starts to hit left or right and longer distances...... When you walkback tuned you moved your rest when actually you needed to move your sight...... Walkback tuning can cause you to untune your bow.....


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

You're a lefty? Shooting Blazers? This means fletching contact most times. In fact, most incurable left/right tears are from contact.

If your sight is not levelled in the 2nd and 3rd axis walkback tuning will DE-tune your bow if you made rest adjustments.:nod: So will trying to walkback tune in a breeze.

Too much string contact with your cheek can cause left/right tears that walkback doesn't take into account, too.


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

boojo35 said:


> The reason is that your sight can actually have the windage a few clicks off where it seems to you that it shoots ok at 20 yards but starts to hit left or right and longer distances...... When you walkback tuned you moved your rest when actually you needed to move your sight...... Walkback tuning can cause you to untune your bow.....




if i moved my sight it would have only pushed my 20 off of center to compensate for the longer distances right? i mean if i didn't move the rest then my arrows would still be falling either( / )of ( \ ) when when they should be falling dead on ( | ) as they are now

right?


*breeze was not an issue as i tuned at an indoor range out to 40yds


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Moving your sight a little at 20 may not hardly be noticeable. The same amount of change will be QUITE noticeable at 40, though. 

Check fletching contact (lipstick on your vanes works) and make sure the level is set in your sight.


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## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

You can move for instance a sureloc sight a few clicks and still kill the x when shooting at 20 yards....... You dont shoot every arrow through the same hole, and you can have a hole in the target that actually draws you back to the center..... anyways, you can miss that your bow is actually of to one side of the x ring at 20 yards...... when you back up to a longer yardage, say 60 yards, you have tripled the miss at 20 yards..... so if you were off 1/4" at 20 yards, which is hard to detect, you are now off 3/4" at 60 yards....now if you move your rest, you have untuned your bow..... As xp35 also mentioned, 2nd and 3rd axis can also effect this..... This subject has been debated before, and some people just dont get it...... target shooters will move their sight windage back and forth from day to day due to slight variances in form, sight picture, lighting, etc..... does that mean that their bow untuned itself? should they move their sight of their rest? the bottom line is that the miss from a bad windage adjustment will go / or \ at a longer yardage..... I can have a bow shooting x's at 20 yards and go shoot the 80 yard bale on the field course and shoot left or right..... If I adjust my sight to hit the center and walk back up to 20 yards I will still be in the center.....A rifle scope is a good analogy..... if you are one click off at 100 yards, you will be 1/4" off...... say you have a rifle that shoots moa groups, or in other words it will put all of its shots into a 1" group..... that 1" group may hide that you are off a 1/4"...... If you back up to 600 yards that rifle is of at least 1 1/2" from that same one click.....


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

got ya. thanks for the in depth explanation, and sorry for my stupidy(or lack of knowledge anyway).

now your saying i should re-paper tune and go back to walkback but move the sight instead? i just want my bow to be perfectly in tune, or as close as i can get it anyway.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

Bottom line is, if your pins are not in a perfect vertical alignment, moving your rest is useless! If they are level, then you can make adjustments with the rest while walk back tuning. I agree that paper tuning is to get you close, then trust the WBTing. And remember, a 32nd of an inch, can make a hugh difference at 40 yards! In reality, depending on the rest I am shooting, and for a RIGHT-HANDED shooter, I will tune my arrows to have a high LEFT tear but just a small tear.


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## Bonz (Jan 15, 2006)

If you tune to get a bullet hole, and then you walkback tune and move the rest a little wont that throw off your bh and fp impact? I have never walkback tuned just paper tune to a bullet hole and I have got bh and fp to hit same point of impact out to 50 yrds. For the people that walkbalk tune do you walkback tune your fp and then when hunting season rolls around do you make different rest adjustments and walk back tune your broadheads?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

boojo35 said:


> The reason is that your sight can actually have the windage a few clicks off where it seems to you that it shoots ok at 20 yards but starts to hit left or right and longer distances...... When you walkback tuned you moved your rest when actually you needed to move your sight...... Walkback tuning can cause you to untune your bow.....


Exactly.....


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## ButchrCrekHuntr (Mar 26, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Exactly.....


No! It just means that your bow wasn't tuned like you thought it was when you paper tuned. Paper tuning is NOT the Holy Grail of bow tuning like some people are foolish enough to believe.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

ButchrCrekHuntr said:


> No! It just means that your bow wasn't tuned like you thought it was when you paper tuned. Paper tuning is NOT the Holy Grail of bow tuning like some people are foolish enough to believe.


And I tend to believe you. But in this instance I would bet dollars to donuts that he DEtuned while walking back. For whatever reason, but I'd bet his sight's level is not adjustable or is not set properly.

Try walking back or French tuning without at least the second axis set sometime. Wanna' bet it doesn't work?


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## meesier42 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have only once done paper tunning, I did it just to see what would happen. I only do walkback, but I also realized that if I don't walk back all the way to 60 yards (or more) then I may not be truly tuned. As I am able to get very good results at 10-40 yards that goes to hell at 60. So make sure you can get far enough back to make it useful. And of course make sure you are shooting well enough that you are measuring the bow not your form.

I had a freind who believed paper was the only way to tune, I did 1 shot, with bullet point results and stopped. I laughed when he finally got a bullet point and his walk-back was screwed.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ButchrCrekHuntr said:


> No! It just means that your bow wasn't tuned like you thought it was when you paper tuned. Paper tuning is NOT the Holy Grail of bow tuning like some people are foolish enough to believe.


No it means that his bow wasn't sighted in to begin with....

I know paper tuning isn't the holy grail (that is why I do it once in a blue moon to make sure that something isn't going crazy, but then I only usually do it AFTER I have done most of my tuning and setup)...and neither is walk back tuning.


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## ngabowhunter (Mar 9, 2006)

Bonz said:


> If you tune to get a bullet hole, and then you walkback tune and move the rest a little wont that throw off your bh and fp impact? I have never walkback tuned just paper tune to a bullet hole and I have got bh and fp to hit same point of impact out to 50 yrds. For the people that walkbalk tune do you walkback tune your fp and then when hunting season rolls around do you make different rest adjustments and walk back tune your broadheads?


I used to tuned my bow to broadheads not know more, I think if your bow is fine tuned with fp's (with no wings) I find a bh that will shoot with fp's. I think groups suffer when you bh tuned. JMO


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> No it means that his bow wasn't sighted in to begin with....
> 
> I know paper tuning isn't the holy grail (that is why I do it once in a blue moon to make sure that something isn't going crazy, but then I only usually do it AFTER I have done most of my tuning and setup)...and neither is walk back tuning.


*EXACTLY!!!:wink:*


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Soooo, did you figure it out yet, man? Please....let us know.


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

XP35 said:


> Soooo, did you figure it out yet, man? Please....let us know.



nuts&bolts pm'd me and said i should try modified french tuning. i did it and it worked great out to 10yds. haven't had a chance to shoot past that yet. but he seems pretty confident in the technique and he's helped me so much with form and shooting. anyway, i posted a thread with pics in the main forum and forgot to update here. so here is the link 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=653577


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

i did have to shim it a little, i already checked that. its still not perfect but its pretty darn close. i have no clue how to check or correct 3rd axis so any help there would be great too


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

axp - scroll down on that link that dwagoner posted and they discuss 3rd access on sights.

good luck - the more I read the less confident I get with tuning. lol

read your mod french tuning thread. i think my centershot is pretty close at this point though.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Walk back tuning is done to tune the arrow, it doesn't tune the bow. For those who says paper tuning is a waste of time or only a starting point probably doesn't know how to paper tune correctly. If paper tuned correctly, a bow will shoot as good and consistent as any other tuning method. Paper tuning can tell you things that no other tuning can. If your grip isn't right, it will show through paper, if your arrow spines isn't right it will show through paper, if your timing or positioning is out it will show through paper. Other tuning methods can also tell you these things but only to an experienced person. Even at that, paper will tell you quicker. A lot of people try to paper tune their bow without any luck and the do a walk back and say, it's tuned now. I never walk back tune because I never needed too. Once I paper tune my bow, it is tuned. No other adjustments will make it better. I bareshaft tune through paper. A also shoot fletched arrow through paper doing them both at 3 foot increments back to 10-12 yards. This allow me to make adjustments in my form and in my bow. I often adjust the poundage of the bow to fine tune the arrow. Your arrow will fly it's best at a particular poundage and I find that poundage through paper tuning. 
Don't get me wrong, walk back tuning is a good tuning method and so is french tuning. I have my opinions and my experience to back up my theories. I just don't understand how people can disregaurd paper tuning as if it doesn't work. IT WORKS.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

paper tuning is the one thing I haven't done yet. walk back tuned, shot out to 50 yards pretty good, but I also see my arrows fishin a lil bit so I've been trying different spined arrows as well. I've got some bare shafts, guess I need to shoot some paper. do you need to do it at eye level?


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

dx2 said:


> paper tuning is the one thing I haven't done yet. walk back tuned, shot out to 50 yards pretty good, but I also see my arrows fishin a lil bit so I've been trying different spined arrows as well. I've got some bare shafts, guess I need to shoot some paper. do you need to do it at eye level?


It is best to hold the bow level when you paper tune.


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## Snuffer (Oct 15, 2002)

If you can get a fletched arrow to shoot to the same point of impact as an un-fletched arrow at 30 yards your bow is tuned and your form is good. Broadheads will hit with your feild points. How you get there is up to you! All you guys that think your tuneing way is best should take this test, And see if your bow is really tuned!!!


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

*idiot*

well i after my modified french tuning i decided to mess with my poudage a little to get better tears, and it worked. i got better tears. i wouldn't say perfect bullet hole, but extremely close. 

although after i did this i was messing with my draw stop post adjustment to experiment and see if it would change my tears at all. well i snapped the post clean off, i over tightened it. i didn't even think i tightened it that much. anyway, i kind of like it without it being there, i thought it would be wierd but its not. i feel like i can settle in a little better. i posted about this in the main forum, but is this wierd that i like it better? and is it bad to shoot without it?


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## ButchrCrekHuntr (Mar 26, 2005)

Snuffer, I agree with your post. Most people couldn't shoot a bullet hole with a rifle say nothing of trying to do it with a bow at any distance. If a bullet hole is so perfect, then why do so many pro shooters tune for a slightly high left tear? On the other hand, could it be that they are just doing it for no reason? 

Most people who tune for a bullet hole cannot even get close to having a bare shaft and field point having the same impact point at 20 yards, let alone 30, and are usually afraid to try it. I have tuned some of my bows for that at 30 yards, but most of the time now just call it good if I can do it at 20. I use FOB's so it isn't any problem to take one off and shoot a bare shaft once in a while. I do it at 20 yards just to make sure that something hasn't changed.

Basicly, what it all comes down to is, you can't tune any better than you can shoot; and you can't shoot any better than you can tune. Some people just have lower standards of acceptability than others regardless of which tuning method they use.


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

I suppose it depends on what your goal is. For me, I want to see fixed blade broadheads flying as close as possible to my field tips out to 45 yards. I've had very good success using group and walkback tuning to get to this point.


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## jthibaudeau (Dec 19, 2007)

*question on 2nd and third axis*

hey guys i have been reading alot of your post and have a question on the 2nd and third axis adjustments . i have a hha sight that is not adjustable and mi level is off, what do you do with this problem. i am having some of the same problems that you guys are talking about with wbting and pting i believe that you cant soley paper tune and say its good its merelley a statring piont but when the both of them say diffeent things what doyou do split it down the middle and do costant adjustments per the situation.


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

my bubble was off also. i got some small BH washers and shimmed the bottom of my sight out to make it level. its not 100% but it was way off before


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jthibaudeau said:


> hey guys i have been reading alot of your post and have a question on the 2nd and third axis adjustments . i have a hha sight that is not adjustable and mi level is off, what do you do with this problem. i am having some of the same problems that you guys are talking about with wbting and pting i believe that you cant soley paper tune and say its good its merelley a statring piont but when the both of them say diffeent things what doyou do split it down the middle and do costant adjustments per the situation.


How to check 2nd axis.

Block of wood...say a chunk of 2x2

Drill a 5/16 hole

Get a fine thread 5/16th bolt....5/16-24

Push the bolt through the hole in the block of wood,
clamp the block of wood to the dining room table or any table.

Screw the bolt tight into the front stabilizer hole.


I just use 2 dining room chairs to hold the bow dead vertical.
I check with a 24-inch carpenter's level, held against the limb pockets.



Ok.

Bow is dead vertical.

Now, look at the bubble on your HHA sight.


IF the bubble is not dead center,
go find an aluminum can of soda.

With a pair of sharp scissors, cut a strip of aluminum say 1/2-inch wide.
Cuts easy, just like paper.

Now, we have a strip of aluminum 1/2-inch wide
and cut into a rectangle say 3/4-inch long.

With a hole punch, cut a hole in the rectangle of aluminum.

You now have a very thin, very accurate shim of aluminum soda can.


You have 2 screws for the sight mount.

Pick the correct screw,
and use your aluminum soda can washer
to shim out the sight mount,
and KEEP adding shims
until your bubble is dead center.


Remember to check with your 24-inch carpenter's level,
that the bow is still DEAD vertical.



Bow is dead vertical.

HHA sight bubble is dead center.



2nd axis is now perfect.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

axp117crow said:


> my bubble was off also. i got some small BH washers and shimmed the bottom of my sight out to make it level. its not 100% but it was way off before


Use some aluminum soda can shims,
and you can get it perfect.


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Use some aluminum soda can shims,
> and you can get it perfect.


sweet, thanks a lot. i'm gonng go mess with it now, i'll let you know how it goes.


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## jthibaudeau (Dec 19, 2007)

*pting and wbting*

i kind of had the idea in my head for that but did not know if it was that simply great idea , thanks . what about the wbting and pting question


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## vince71969 (Apr 17, 2004)

axp117crow said:


> got ya. thanks for the in depth explanation, and sorry for my stupidy(or lack of knowledge anyway).
> 
> now your saying i should re-paper tune and go back to walkback but move the sight instead? i just want my bow to be perfectly in tune, or as close as i can get it anyway.



Try this:


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## axp117crow (Dec 11, 2006)

kinner, i already did that, nuts&bolts helped me out. i posted a link above to a thread i started about it in the main forum. thanks though


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

I have used the soda can aluminum shims on some sights of mine and friends' sights as well. Very thin so you can make fine adjustments.


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## BTM (Dec 31, 2002)

fletched said:


> Walk back tuning is done to tune the arrow, it doesn't tune the bow. For those who says paper tuning is a waste of time or only a starting point probably doesn't know how to paper tune correctly. If paper tuned correctly, a bow will shoot as good and consistent as any other tuning method. Paper tuning can tell you things that no other tuning can. If your grip isn't right, it will show through paper, if your arrow spines isn't right it will show through paper, if your timing or positioning is out it will show through paper. Other tuning methods can also tell you these things but only to an experienced person. Even at that, paper will tell you quicker. A lot of people try to paper tune their bow without any luck and the do a walk back and say, it's tuned now. I never walk back tune because I never needed too. Once I paper tune my bow, it is tuned. No other adjustments will make it better. I bareshaft tune through paper. A also shoot fletched arrow through paper doing them both at 3 foot increments back to 10-12 yards. This allow me to make adjustments in my form and in my bow. I often adjust the poundage of the bow to fine tune the arrow. Your arrow will fly it's best at a particular poundage and I find that poundage through paper tuning.
> Don't get me wrong, walk back tuning is a good tuning method and so is french tuning. I have my opinions and my experience to back up my theories. I just don't understand how people can disregaurd paper tuning as if it doesn't work. IT WORKS.


Amen, Fletched! It's been my experience that paper tuning will tell you things no other method can. I still do some walk back tuning, but paper tuning has been the only way that I can use to get FPs, BHs, and BSs hitting the same spot. More importantly, the BHs fly best.


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## Howardstern (Feb 16, 2008)

I normaly do a walk back tune, just did a paper tune it showed me that my arrow was fish tailing i got it straigtened away can somone explain french tuning?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Howardstern said:


> I normaly do a walk back tune, just did a paper tune it showed me that my arrow was fish tailing i got it straigtened away can somone explain french tuning?


See post #37 on this thread.

It's modified French Tuning.


Shoot up close, with field points.
Hang a string with a weight on the end.
Position the hanging string so it splits the bullseye in half.

Now, start at 3 feet or 5 feet,
whatever is convenient.

Fire at the string. High, low, doesn't matter.
The idea is to split the string in half.

Be patient. Take your time.

At this "close up" distance,
make adjustments ONLY to the sight pin windage (left or right).

Keep adjusting the sight pin, a tiny bit left
or a tiny bit right,
until your field point splits the string in half.



Now,
when you can split the string in half,
now go to the "long distance".


Ideally, try to do this indoors.
If you can get 30 feet indoors, great.
If you can get 20 feet indoors, fine.
If you can get 15 feet indoors, that's ok too.


Fire an arrow at a convenient "long distance".
If you are in danger of robin hoods,
then only fire 1 arrow at the "long distance".

If you cannot hit the string,
then move ONLY the arrow rest
at your convenient "long distance".

Be patient.
Keep adjusting the arrow rest a TINY TINY bit right
or a TINY TINY bit left.

Keep adjusting until you can really get really close to the string,
at your convenient "long distance".


Now, when you are satisfied with your 1 arrow
or 3 arrow group at your convenient "Long Distance",
now,
go back to your really close "short distance".

You might need to adjust your sight pin a TINY bit, left or right.


So, at 3 feet or 5 feet,
fire your field point, and see if you can SPLIT the string in half.

If not,
make a TINY adjustment.


Keep going back and forth
between your "short distance" and adjust the sight pin only,
and
go back to your "long distance" and adjust the arrow rest.


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## carnate617 (Mar 10, 2008)

*Ques about paper tuning.*

how much of an effect will a whisker biscuit have on arrow flight/paper tuning? for me, arrow flight is inconsistent. i am looking for a fall away to see if it can help my arrow flight.


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