# 2016 US Outdoor Nationals



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Barebow numbers for this year (according to Rcherz registrations):

Senior men - 11
Senior women - 5
Masters men - 8
Masters women - 5
Junior men - 3
Junior women - 5
Cadet men - 3
Cadet women - 0
Cub men - 0
Cub women - 0
Bowmen men - 2
Bowmen women - 1

Total - 43

Numbers continue to be decent in the Senior and Masters ranks, but I'm concerned about our JOAD barebow archers having a spot on the line in the future.


----------



## Zombie_Feynman (Jun 27, 2014)

Looks like Erika Jones is competing. Is she coming back?


----------



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Watching my mates (master compound, senior 60 recurve and cadet female recurve, cadet male compound) with cheering them on.

I do like to see barebow however. Even though it ain't my thing I like to so the bb folks kill it!


----------



## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Barebow numbers for this year (according to Rcherz registrations):
> 
> Senior men - 11
> Senior women - 5
> ...


How many of the Senior barebow are actually under 50 years of age?

JOAD is the future of barebow - how do we grow that? Now do we grow the training of aiming for Joad.

But the over all numbers look good.


----------



## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Looks like it was a close battle for the Senior Women Recurve Day1:

Park: 655
Brown: 653
Lorig: 652

I saw they closed the field for Lightning, but I haven't heard any reports if it's Windy, Rainy, etc...


----------



## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

I thought joad was predominantly Olympic style


----------



## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Lightning and rain still at 3pm. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I think Larry is still tuning his arrows. 🙊

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Mr. Roboto said:


> How many of the Senior barebow are actually under 50 years of age?


All but three that I know of. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> JOAD is the future of barebow - how do we grow that?


Illinois does our small part by making our JOAD club state championship impossible to win without a strong barebow contingent. Missouri almost won our championship because their barebow group was solid.

Having visits by strong barebow shooters to demonstrate what can be done is a big plus -- it makes a big impression in a lot of ways.

If anyone has a 2-3 page writeup on barebow aiming, gap, float, shot process, stringwalking, and rules (and other barebow vocabulary words that are a mystery to me) that they like, I'd like to spread that around as light reading.


Hopefully the barebow Nationals results this year continue to show the great scores that a focused competitor can achieve!

-T


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Couple of thoughts...

1) With those scores, it can't be that windy. Many national records were set today. Not uncommon on rainy days actually because it's easier to read the wind, and there is usually less to read.

2) JOAD includes compound, recurve and barebow. All three are now supported equally within the JOAD program. It will take a few years to see more participation by JOAD barebow archers at Nationals, and unfortunately the stigma still persists with many coaches and parents that only compound and recurve are "serious" enough to attend Nationals. I hope that goes away over time, as more and more archers see the quality of archery that well trained barebow archers can produce.

3) Some pretty decent Junior Women Barebow scores so far. 50M for a teenage girl without sights/stabs/clicker ain't exactly a chip shot.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Aaand they're off....
> 
> Didn't make the trip this year, so I'd enjoy reading updates. Facility looks beautiful, just as it was last year.
> 
> ...


Five hour delay today. Our CJO archers did pretty well in Clout-sadly there were lots of no-shows. Paul Black took second, one point behind Gary Yamaguchi's winning score (you should see Gary's contraption of a sight he rigged up-I don't know if he used it). Chelsea Obrebski won the Ladies recurve, our cadet compound girl, Kylie Martin won, and Lizard, with her Bernadini with WINEX limbs was second in the masters recurve event. Ian (SQUID) Coombe-who has shot this event every year it has been held for the last 8 or so years took silver in a field that had lots of no shows (Junior Men recurve) and another one of our first time clout archers, Drew Canos was third in the cadet recurve. 

Tomorrow's forecast looks much better than it did a few hours ago-now only 1-4 has a 70% chance of thunderstorms-a few hours ago it was 70% thunderstorms from 8-AM to 7 PM


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Lizard just said they called the afternoon line after 8 ends. more nastiness imminent. So 24 arrows not shot for male recurve/female compound


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Right when they called it

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

5 minutes later

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm impressed that you could make it from the shooting line to your car in 5 minutes. I wasn't aware of this athleticism you possess. Must be wearing the Superman shirt.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

the first of the two pictures sort of look like the sky in the last remake of WAR OF THE WORLDS!


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm good like that. Premo parking spot. Haha

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Maybe first pic was just after we scored arrows. 😉

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

great picture. cant say I'm disapointed that they called it, we're all whuped. 

welcome to summer in Alabama


----------



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

So it looks like the afternoon folks got in 48 arrows. Will the powers that be decide that's it or will there be time carved out for the remainder of the second round? Or like I said, that's all folks til tomorrow?


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Aaand they're off....
> 
> Didn't make the trip this year, so I'd enjoy reading updates. Facility looks beautiful, just as it was last year.
> 
> ...


:darkbeer: I'm hanging in there (but the craving for alcohol gets stronger and stronger!).


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Shooting conditions Thursday evening after the 4 hour delay were ideal (for 8 ends anyway, before the apocalypse preview came on us), calm, not hot, flat lighting. Fields are beautiful. Only problems so far: 1) the weather volatility is tough on everyone, and 2) Clout would get a lot more participation (I think) if they had it AFTER the main events, like on Saturday evening. But I know it's hard to squeeze everything in in three days.

Coaching AND shooting long days - my hat is off to those who make it look easy.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That is one reason I never tried to coach and shoot at Nationals. Last year is the first year I've ever shot Outdoor Nationals because every other year I was coaching young students. I told all my students last year they were on their own, and it was the most relaxing Nationals I've ever attended.


----------



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

lksseven said:


> :darkbeer: I'm hanging in there (but the craving for alcohol gets stronger and stronger!).


Keep hanging in there!! Today is a new day.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

StarDog said:


> Keep hanging in there!! Today is a new day.


It's really not until day three that they start eating their own.


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

Perfect morning of shooting for qualification day 2! Good scores across the board, and Brady with a 694. 34 point gap between 1st and second after the two days is pretty spectacular! Hopefully he can carry this momentum into the Olympics next month.


----------



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> It's really not until day three that they start eating their own.



:set1_rolf2:


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ABourdage said:


> Perfect morning of shooting for qualification day 2! Good scores across the board, and Brady with a 694. 34 point gap between 1st and second after the two days is pretty spectacular! Hopefully he can carry this momentum into the Olympics next month.


Agreed, and I think he will. I think this is his time. A happy wife is a happy life.  ha, ha.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> That is one reason I never tried to coach and shoot at Nationals. Last year is the first year I've ever shot Outdoor Nationals because every other year I was coaching young students. I told all my students last year they were on their own, and it was the most relaxing Nationals I've ever attended.


I understand - while this Nationals has been very rewarding in many ways, 'relaxing' isn't one of the descriptors. I'm going to forego shooting in match play Saturday, to coach Aurora, because the schedulers, in their infinite wisdom, changed the schedule so that almost all adults and JOADers shoot at the same time Sat a.m. It's not exactly an ideal 'family inclusive' scheduling philosophy, although I'm sure there are a hundred logistical factors that I'm unaware of that made this seem like the best solution.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

And a shout out to Rick McKinney, who has struggled with his shooting at times this year, but showed up at Nationals and worked as hard as I've ever seen anyone work on the shooting line to keep at it, keep at it, keep at it, and ultimately finding a way to win Masters 60+ against 3 or 4 time Masters winner Gary Yamaguchi. Kudos!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> I understand - while this Nationals has been very rewarding in many ways, 'relaxing' isn't one of the descriptors. I'm going to forego shooting in match play Saturday, to coach Aurora, because the schedulers, in their infinite wisdom, changed the schedule so that almost all adults and JOADers shoot at the same time Sat a.m. It's not exactly an ideal 'family inclusive' scheduling philosophy, although I'm sure there are a hundred logistical factors that I'm unaware of that made this seem like the best solution.


And so it begins... the internal debate of whether to shoot or coach.  Might I suggest you pay Glenn Meyers a visit?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Can anyone tell me whether the barebow archers are getting to shoot in the team round?


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

It looks like there was team rounds for both barebow junior and barebow cub. Maybe the numbers weren't strong enough this year? It was an optional event this time around.


----------



## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

There were no teams rounds offered for entry to either Senior or Master archers. There were at least three male barebow teams created prior to attending Decatur. It was not officially announced that their would be no adult team until last Wednesday at athlete registration.

Mark


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Shooting and coaching is a tough juggling act. I did it this year and thank goodness for the rain delay on Thursday. I was wiped out at 1pm but at 5pm had a chance to recover a bit. The families really appreciated the effort put forth to coach and I believe I'll be in the same situation next year. Congrats to Rick McKinney, who beat all the youngsters during eliminations. That was a fine showing.

Oh, and the rcherz app could still use a way to easily check scores from each round to compare with paper scoring!!! That and it still needs bigger fonts in some areas. These are not new problems, but still need to be addressed.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I thought it was a crying shame. Team rounds have been the first thing to be eliminated when the weather gets in the way. This year there was no pretense about what USAA thought about teams for Seniors and Masters. Team rounds are a blast and should follow what the kids do. No set teams. Shoot your score and get placed on a team. Then watch new friendships blossom and have a blast. Bring it back in a way all the adults can share in the fun the JOAD kids have. I can assure you they have a blast.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I thought it was a crying shame. Team rounds have been the first thing to be eliminated when the weather gets in the way. This year there was no pretense about what USAA thought about teams for Seniors and Masters. Team rounds are a blast and should follow what the kids do. No set teams. Shoot your score and get placed on a team. Then watch new friendships blossom and have a blast. Bring it back in a way all the adults can share in the fun the JOAD kids have. I can assure you they have a blast.


sadly, once again the team rounds for the kids were completely unfair. One team in the Junior boys-the TOP archer's Average Arrow value was LOWER Than Several other team's average for all three shooters. My son has had a habit of getting screwed on this event for years-one year a kid on his team didn't want to shoot so this kid deliberately shot his arrows into the ground hoping the team would lose so he didn't have to shoot anymore. This year, Ian was on a two person team where the top kid's average arrow value was LOWER than almost any other teams. In one pairing-over a 24 arrow match, the team with an average arrow value of 8.3 would be predicted to shoot at least 36 points higher than another team. If anyone disbelieves me as to how bad it was-PM me and I will send them ALL the arrow values for each of the junior boys recurve teams showing how unfair it was. 

Its time to end this charade or NOT shoot for medals. Its IDIOTIC to make kids and parents spend an EXTRA DAY of hotel costs when the organization is going to deliberately screw at least half the kids by forcing them onto teams where they have no reasonable chance of being able to compete. A team of 8.5 + 8.4 + 7.8 vs a team of 8.1 + 7.6 + 5.05 is not a fair pairing


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I thought they would assign teams with a high scorer, and medium scorer and a low scorer. Shouldnt be hard to out that together. 

If you got 30 kids in a division, then team one has 1,15 ,30, team two has 2,14,29, team three has 3,13,28 and so on. Form teams from the qualifying round ranking.


Chris


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> sadly, once again the team rounds for the kids were completely unfair. One team in the Junior boys-the TOP archer's Average Arrow value was LOWER Than Several other team's average for all three shooters. My son has had a habit of getting screwed on this event for years-one year a kid on his team didn't want to shoot so this kid deliberately shot his arrows into the ground hoping the team would lose so he didn't have to shoot anymore. This year, Ian was on a two person team where the top kid's average arrow value was LOWER than almost any other teams. In one pairing-over a 24 arrow match, the team with an average arrow value of 8.3 would be predicted to shoot at least 36 points higher than another team. If anyone disbelieves me as to how bad it was-PM me and I will send them ALL the arrow values for each of the junior boys recurve teams showing how unfair it was.
> 
> Its time to end this charade or NOT shoot for medals. Its IDIOTIC to make kids and parents spend an EXTRA DAY of hotel costs when the organization is going to deliberately screw at least half the kids by forcing them onto teams where they have no reasonable chance of being able to compete. A team of 8.5 + 8.4 + 7.8 vs a team of 8.1 + 7.6 + 5.05 is not a fair pairing


I think you may be placing a little too much value on those medals. It's an exercise for experience in sportsmanship, aptitude and just plain fun. That is all. I'm pretty sure even the kids understand this. I have always thought the parents take the JOAD team rounds more seriously than the kids do, which is part of the problem I have with some JOAD parents.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I think you may be placing a little too much value on those medals. It's an exercise for experience in sportsmanship, aptitude and just plain fun. That is all. I'm pretty sure even the kids understand this. I have always thought the parents take the JOAD team rounds more seriously than the kids do, which is part of the problem I have with some JOAD parents.


tell that to the kids. why cannot USA Archery at least make an effort to make things fair. I had lots of kids from my program wonder why they stayed another day, spent another 100+ bucks for a hotel room only to be put in a situation, out of their control, where they had no chance of winning. One of the parents told me that she knew right away that her kid-who has been on the podium several times in the last few years, would win a medal because he was on a stacked team. 

Lets get rid of this charade or have a round robin with no medals so making the kids spent another day there has some value

Here is the team values for the Junior Recurves . two teams were not even listed-four archers got there and found they were not on teams including my son.



Random 1 (RJM) 
•	Nicholas Kalakanis 7.6
•	Kaleb Dorow 8.59 Average Value	7.82
•	Blain Gerrells 7.28

Random 2 (RJM) 
•	Joel Vézina-Boucher 8.53
•	Jake Ohlendorf 8.49 Average Value	8.18
•	Matthew Choi 7.53

Random 3 (RJM) 
•	Kent Park 6.93
•	Liam Richardson 7.31 Average Value	7.31
•	Joseph Lee 7.69

Random 4 (RJM) 
•	Joshua Podgorski –	8.79
•	Jean-Luc Espinet 8.77 Average value 8.13
•	Tanay Nunna 6.83

Random 5 (RJM) 
•	Ralph Lawton 8.18	
•	Kent Naogi Nitta 8.43 Average Value 8.19
•	Liam Bock 7.97

Random 6 (RJM) 
•	Stefan Urosevic 7.58
•	Elliot Bekker 7.96 Average Value	7.65
•	Jackson Wagner 7.42	


Random 7 (RJM) 
• Joshua Gold 5.08	
• Anthony Dukes • 7.21 Average Value 6.79	
Ryan Oliver 8.1


Random 8 (RJM) 
• Ethan Bair 7.87
• Tyler Ruzbasan • 8.65 Average Value 7.39
Sarthak Bansal 5.66	

Random 9 (RJM) 
• Andrew Suk • 7.73
Minsoo Kim • 9.07 Αverage Value	8.00
Je Oh Lee 7.21

Random 10 (RJM) 
• Logan Stevenson • 6.92
Ethan Cilley 7.03 Average Value	7.5
• Isaac Swinehart 8.67

Random 11 (RJM) 
• Gabriel Vezina-Boucher 8
Dillon McMenamy 8.47	Average Value	8.1
• Tucker Schuller 7.83

Random 12 (RJM) 
• Geun Kim 8.54
• Alex Bourdage • 8.53 Average value 8.35
Micah Flores 7.98

NOT LISTED ON THIS

Ian Coombe 6.9 Average arrow value 7.39
Matt Hansen 7.88

how can anyone justify say Ryan Oliver's team where he is the top archer and yet his average is LESS than several teams


----------



## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I thought it was a crying shame. Team rounds have been the first thing to be eliminated when the weather gets in the way. This year there was no pretense about what USAA thought about teams for Seniors and Masters. Team rounds are a blast and should follow what the kids do. No set teams. Shoot your score and get placed on a team. Then watch new friendships blossom and have a blast. Bring it back in a way all the adults can share in the fun the JOAD kids have. I can assure you they have a blast.


Darn I plan on going to Nationals next year and was hoping for Senior team rounds! I really want to shoot against a team of Olympians/RAs too that would be a great experience. Why do the kids get all the fun


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> tell that to the kids.


Jim, most of the kids already understand this. And frankly those who don't are simply taking their cues from the adults who make a big deal out of what should be a fun event shot for the experience. If they didn't award medals, a lot of kids (and particularly their parents) wouldn't even bother to show up. But as adults and leaders within the archery community, it is our JOB to teach these kids the lesson that the medals and placement in the JOAD team round isn't what that event is all about. Again, I think you have always put too much emphasis on the medals in the team event. But then if it were up to me, Bowmen and probably even Cubs wouldn't be at Nationals - they would shoot regional events. Because handing a "National Championship" medal to a 12 year-old usually does more harm than good - and when I say that, I'm talking about the parents maybe more than the kid.

My daughter and many of my students have shot in the EJN team event for many years. Every time, I talked to them all and their parents about understanding what the event is all about. Probably the most important outcome of that event is teaching teamwork and sportsmanship. And dwelling on the way the teams are selected and who did or didn't win medals, for a group of kids, isn't my idea of teaching sportsmanship.

The one point I will agree with you on is making the kids and their families stay an extra day. It didn't used to be that way, and IMO shouldn't be that way. But this is another example of where JOAD kids (and their parents) really rate in the organization, always taking a back seat to the "elites" schedules. This is and also an example of where a separate JOAD Nationals has some value. With registrations topping 1K now, it's just a matter of time before some decisions have to be made about whether to require qualifications for Nationals (my vote) or separate them again.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch said:


> Darn I plan on going to Nationals next year and was hoping for Senior team rounds! I really want to shoot against a team of Olympians/RAs too that would be a great experience. Why do the kids get all the fun


If you want team rounds, shoot the TX Shootout. They are more fun there anyway.


----------



## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> If you want team rounds, shoot the TX Shootout. They are more fun there anyway.


TX Shootout was on my list too. Hope they keep the team rounds


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I think you may be placing a little too much value on those medals. It's an exercise for experience in sportsmanship, aptitude and just plain fun. That is all. I'm pretty sure even the kids understand this. I have always thought the parents take the JOAD team rounds more seriously than the kids do, which is part of the problem I have with some JOAD parents.


Normally i would agree with you IF the team round placement did not count in the Grand National Champion award. But when it is counted in with points for qualifications and eliminations, Then it should be assigned fairly.

I had a kid who placed high in qualifications, won matchplay and then was left to the luck of the random team to place and get enough points for Grand champion or not. I knew it was a random coinflip. Not so fair if some teams have much stronger archers that other random teams. The team rounds should not count for Grand National Champion.


Chris


----------



## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

My son, a bowman, shot the nationals this year. Hes been shooting a year and has shot several indoors including the nationals last year. He got skunked pretty good, which is what I expected. But the only goals I had for him was exposure to this class of shooting and a few days of fun. And at that we were sucessful. We also also some very nice folks.

And then we meet a small number of parents that seemed to think they were raising the next Olympians. And maybe they were. One mom cornered me one afternoon and read me the riot act about how the parents should be running the show. (I had on a red shirt, guess she thought i was staff &#55357;&#56842. I suggested that she could start by donating a ton of her personal time to help instead of complaining.

Anyway, from my pespective the event was fun and educational. Sure I wish it would run faster but there is only so much you can do. At least the younger kids had their on field, I think that helped a lot logistically.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Normally i would agree with you IF the team round placement did not count in the Grand National Champion award. But when it is counted in with points for qualifications and eliminations, Then it should be assigned fairly.
> 
> I had a kid who placed high in qualifications, won matchplay and then was left to the luck of the random team to place and get enough points for Grand champion or not. I knew it was a random coinflip. Not so fair if some teams have much stronger archers that other random teams. The team rounds should not count for Grand National Champion.
> 
> ...


When did they begin including the team round in the GNC ranking?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> And then we meet a small number of parents that seemed to think they were raising the next Olympians. And maybe they were.


That's about right. And no, they aren't, but they think they are. 99.999% of archery parents at Nationals are in for a rude awakening within the next 3 years. Most have them don't even understand the Olympic team selection process. I lost track of how many parents I have spoken with that actually believe the JDT is a prerequisite for the Olympic team. LOL. 

I guess this is the new youth sports parent though. Super aggressive and opinionated, even though they themselves can't ever be found when there is real work to be done.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> When did they begin including the team round in the GNC ranking?


if you don't participate you are assigned 1000 points meaning you come in almost dead last. everyone who shoots the event is given one point no matter where they place. But I think it should be optional. I have seen it cause lots of problems over the years and since USA A makes no effort to create a fair pairing, why have it?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, that's not quite the same thing. So in other words, nothing has changed then?

And I think I covered the "why have it?" question. The kids love it, even if most of the parents don't.


----------



## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> I guess this is the new youth sports parent though. Super aggressive and opinionated, even though they themselves can't ever be found when there is real work to be done.


Refreshingly, the overwhelming majority have been very pleasant.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> When did they begin including the team round in the GNC ranking?


maybe i misunderstood about Grand National Champion points from last year. If is is not used for that, then i agree with you. 

I was under the impression qualifications, eliminations and team rounds counted for that last year and this year. 

Chris


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

I agree that we need to take the team rounds for what they are worth. They are simply a learning experience to get our feet wet with team rounds. I also don't think that it should be included in the GNC. 

It was interesting to see the list of average arrows by team. Looking at it, it's no surprise that my team won, because we had the highest average arrow of any team from qualifications. However, I never thought for a second that I was a national champion. The bronze medal that I earned individually means in Florida means far more than the team round gold from nationals. It was just for fun. 

The only satisfaction that I got from the team rounds is personal - I implemented the things that my coach has been attempting to drill into me, and I shot the best that I ever have. Winning or losing team, that would not have been any different. 

I think a round robin system, without awarding medals, would be far more beneficial. Then everyone gets an equal number of matches. Why should I get 4 more matches than Ian and Matthew just because of luck in team pairing? I shouldn't. I would like to see that change.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ABourdage said:


> I agree that we need to take the team rounds for what they are worth. They are simply a learning experience to get our feet wet with team rounds. I also don't think that it should be included in the GNC.
> 
> It was interesting to see the list of average arrows by team. Looking at it, it's no surprise that my team won, because we had the highest average arrow of any team from qualifications. However, I never thought for a second that I was a national champion. The bronze medal that I earned individually means in Florida means far more than the team round gold from nationals. It was just for fun.
> 
> ...


good points


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dedgemon said:


> Refreshingly, the overwhelming majority have been very pleasant.


I'm glad to hear that. I guess the most annoying ones just seem like they make up a larger % because of the oxygen they suck up.


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

I've met almost exclusively nice people since I started shooting, but the unpleasant ones certainly compensate for their small numbers with a their volume! However, I ran into way more aggressive, opinionated parents at basketball tournaments than I have in archery. Especially at AAU tournaments. Perhaps parent involvement increases with perceived financial liability? I work for every cent that I put into archery, and my parents are only involved on the level of traveling with me every once and a while and making sure I drink enough water! My mom won't even watch an entire tournament, which I don't blame her for, because it's hot and like watching paint dry. Lol. 

In both archery and basketball, it seems that the more money parents spend, the harder they are to deal with.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ABourdage said:


> I've met almost exclusively nice people since I started shooting, but the unpleasant ones certainly compensate for their small numbers with a their volume! However, I ran into way more aggressive, opinionated parents at basketball tournaments than I have in archery. Especially at AAU tournaments. Perhaps parent involvement increases with perceived financial liability? I work for every cent that I put into archery, and my parents are only involved on the level of traveling with me every once and a while and making sure I drink enough water! My mom won't even watch an entire tournament, which I don't blame her for, because it's hot and like watching paint dry. Lol.
> 
> *In both archery and basketball, it seems that the more money parents spend, the harder they are to deal with*.


I think this is generally true. But I know a few parents who don't make a lot of $ and a trip to Nationals is a huge investment for them, so they helicopter over their kids to make sure the trip was "worth it."  So maybe it's not the amount they spend, but what % that is to them of their overall income.

Every year, I find myself having "the talk" with parents of JOAD archers - GOOD parents - about learning to separate the finances from the feelings. It's nearly impossible to do, and I am guilty of it myself sometimes. We all are. But some do a much better job than others. 

What I think some parents forget is that the kid is trying their damndest to impress their parent (whether they will admit it or not) and that is more than enough pressure on them already. Adding the pressure of reminding the kid how much $ they spent on the trip, or registration, or lunch, or hotel, or airfare, etc. is really not fair to the kid. On the other hand, I know a few kids who need a belt across their ... for the way they waste their parent's time and money. So it's a balancing act. Best case scenario is to have a kid who respects their parent's financial investment by working hard and taking things seriously, and at the same time having parents who support their kid with much love and hugs and bottles of water and food, but who never bring up the amount of $ spent on the sport. 

There are much, much cheaper sports for families who cannot justify the $ on archery at the National level. So if the parent agrees to go along with archery, then that's on them IMO.


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

I do agree that the money adds a whole new set of emotions to the situation, and kids shouldn't have to shoulder that burden while they are shooting. That being said, parents should encourage their kids (I'm assuming juniors here) to work and at least help with expenses when money is tight. My family does just fine, but we certainly don't have the disposable income to send me to each of the USATs. It is far more relaxing to spend my own money on it, than to have my parents foot the bill. They do help from time to time (holidays, or random acts of support from my stepdad), but they don't expect gold medals in return, just that I have fun and do well in school.


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Excellent points all around here.

Personally I feel team rounds should be included and have a larger impact on the overall outcome. Here is why, I was a judge on the 50M line two years ago. The kids that had been taught team rounds were excited about shooting it. The kids that did not, learned quickly and loved it. It is part of international competition and adds flavor to the tournament. The team rounds gives archers a chance to earn a medal when they did not during qualification or eliminations.

Now the downside. I had two teams that won their first round but lost teammates and had to forfeit because parents did not want to wait around or had to catch flights. The archers that stayed were very hurt. They had a chance for a medal and someone took it away from them. I had another that a good archer intentionally through the match so he/she could leave. IMO unsportsmanlike behavior.

If you make it a bigger impact, everyone will try harder and probably enjoy it more.

Scheduling. You will always have these issues. Parents and adult archers don't read the schedule then complain when it doesn't match their schedule. We repeatedly tell our parents/archers to READ the ENTIRE information packet. If you have questions call me or Steve (Beastmaster).

Money. We are upfront right off the bat. Period. If you want to shoot nationally, we tell them figure $10K a year. Locally, much less but still can be as hight as $3K to $4K



Read the rules and the schedule


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

I do agree with Jim C about the way teams are assigned. If it is going to matter, it should be fair. There is no way that Geun Kim and I should have been on the same team, especially with somebody who also shot nearly a 600 as well. I know it is random, but it may be worth deliberately creating even teams if it will matter later. 

The way it was set up this year, it wasn't a fair match. Geun, Micah, and I all shot way above out averages, but it certainly wasn't required of us to win. There would be more pride in actually having to earn it.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

ABourdage said:


> I do agree with Jim C about the way teams are assigned. If it is going to matter, it should be fair. There is no way that Geun Kim and I should have been on the same team, especially with somebody who also shot nearly a 600 as well. I know it is random, but it may be worth deliberately creating even teams if it will matter later.
> 
> The way it was set up this year, it wasn't a fair match. Geun, Micah, and I all shot way above out averages, but it certainly wasn't required of us to win. There would be more pride in actually having to earn it.


It's easy to do and not really much work for USAA..........and has been suggested. Split each division into thirds. Put the top third in one hat, second in another and the third in another. Then pick one name from each hat and that is your team. There is still some randomness, but each team has a shooter from the top, middle and bottom of the qualifying rounds. Of course there will be some griping. There is in almost everything any organization does.


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

It also wouldn't be much work to give juniors their own elimination brackets...but some things are never going to change. Haha. I hope that the team rounds can be refined.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> It's easy to do and not really much work for USAA..........and has been suggested. Split each division into thirds. Put the top third in one hat, second in another and the third in another. Then pick one name from each hat and that is your team. There is still some randomness, but each team has a shooter from the top, middle and bottom of the qualifying rounds. Of course there will be some griping. There is in almost everything any organization does.


This is the formula that was used in the past. Has that changed?


----------



## ABourdage (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't know for sure what the method was this time, but Geun and I qualified one point apart in 7th and 8th (8th and 10th including the foreigners), and ended up on the same team. With 38 archers participating, we both should have been in the top third hat, and not on the same team.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Then the easy fix is put team rounds the day after qualifications. Then eliminations are the last day. Parents will stay since thats important, so you wont have people leaving early for an "optional" event. Same as they dont put Clout on the last day. Its in the middle to add a fun event.

If not that, then make it so any team can lose a member and still compete. Two man team still qualifies. Then kids that dont want to shoot can go, and parents can leave if they need to, and the ones that stay can compete.

Chris


----------



## MHoward (Aug 18, 2008)

Jim C said:


> tell that to the kids. why cannot USA Archery at least make an effort to make things fair. I had lots of kids from my program wonder why they stayed another day, spent another 100+ bucks for a hotel room only to be put in a situation, out of their control, where they had no chance of winning. One of the parents told me that she knew right away that her kid-who has been on the podium several times in the last few years, would win a medal because he was on a stacked team.
> 
> Lets get rid of this charade or have a round robin with no medals so making the kids spent another day there has some value
> 
> ...


I know my daughter was super pumped for the team rounds and to seriously compete with the other teams. We walked up to the board to see that she was on a 2 person team with a very low qualifying shooter (super sweet young lady) and she told me that this would be a very short day for her team. They were one and done....not even a chance at advancing.
Just my 2 cents!


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I have used the "System" they use for Nationals.

The archers that qualify toward the top and the archers that qualify toward the bottom are usually at a major disadvantage.

Teams that usually have the best chance to win (note the word usually) are made up of archers that qualified in the middle.


----------



## gdrudd13 (Feb 16, 2016)

So just by sorting the first 36 archers, not the two under "not listed", you can sort teams and get the average arrow to only vary by less than .4 points per arrow. That's going with (for 36 archers) 1-12-36; 2-13-35, 3-14-34, etc. Doing that for a list sorted highest to lowest gives a minimum team average of 7.53, and a maximum team average of 7.90 (range of 0.37) which is far better than a minimum average of 6.79, max of 8.35 that occured (difference of 1.56). While that doesn't help for the ones that intentionally throw a match, or leave, at least the start would be more fair from a scores perspective. I'm sure by playing with the values, it could get even better, but as an easy way this seems to work decently well.


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Last year we held a tournament that was purely team rounds. Each JOAD/Pro Shop put together their teams.

36 arrow round to rank the teams. 

Divisions set up as follows

Recurve/Barebow Combined
Compound Only
Gender Combined
Bowman/Cub
Cadet/Junior
Senior/Masters
Archers could shoot up an age division

Distances
Bowman/Cub 30 Meters (Recurve and Compound)
Cadet/Junior and Senior/Masters Recurve 60 Meters
Cadet/Junior and Senior/Masters Compound 60 Meters
Recurve scoring for all divisions
Double Elimination

Archers had a blast!
Top Teams from each club were very even. 

I bring this up why? Let the clubs going to the nationals put their own teams together.. Just a thought.


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

RickBac said:


> I have used the "System" they use for Nationals.


What system is this?




gdrudd13 said:


> I'm sure by playing with the values, it could get even better, but as an easy way this seems to work decently well.


I played with some ideas for making teams using the final scores. I'm curious what system was actually used.


Splitting the field into 3 flights and randomly drawing one team member from each flight is nearly as good with -far- less effort than some other methods. 

I've been playing with some methods using the ranking round scores, then seeing which method results in the most teams within one standard deviation from the average team score. There is a lot more variance in the lower half of the field than the top half of the field, so a team with the lowest few low scores will have a bigger disadvantage. Also, 2-person teams need to be carefully chosen so that their average score fits with the 3-person averages. If a method just skips the last few teams once you run out of shooters, then the 2-person teams might have a serious advantage of not carrying a bottom-third archer (like me!) who will bring down the score.

I've been playing with the numbers from the male senior recurves, and there are some easy methods to build 14 teams with 13 of them within one standard deviation from each other. The simple "3-flights, choose one from each" method usually ends up with 11-to-13 teams within one standard deviation, which seems like a great result for so little effort. (adding in the Junior male recurve scores makes 42 teams, and that random method usually ends up with 37-40 teams within one standard deviation).


Using purely the qualification ranking (ignoring score differences) makes 39/42 teams. Using some simple score balancing (team with lowest score chooses first, with a slight tweak to leave the weakest 2-person team without a 3rd person) gets 41 of 42 within one deviation.

I haven't built the engine to brute-force compare the 300,000 combinations to find the optimal set of teams. Mostly because I was satisfied with the fairness of the flight-then-random method.

I'm eager to learn more about what the actual method used was, though. And possibly -why-.


----------



## luckycharlie (Nov 29, 2010)

Here was our experience from the Cadet Compound Male side.

- Clout round was very fun. We went with a Tested setup and had no problem getting the arrows to stick into the ground at the 125m distance. I was surprised to see how good 2315 x23's with 4" vanes grouped at 125m. The choice of Yellow 4" vanes were perfect. With the Sun going down and the archers shooting towards the East each shot was like a tracer round. You could watch the arrow leave the bow and sail all the way to the target.

- Rain was not the issue, but lightning. There were pockets of rain, but really nothing that lasted more than a few minutes during the times that the Cadet Men shot. Weather delays for our times were minimal compared to last year.

- Heat and humidity. Wow, we kept hoping for the rain to help cool it off some. We are just not used to the humid climate, 2 showers and 2 sets of clothes each day required.

- Team rounds. My kid tends to take it serious, and would definitely appreciate something different from the RANDOM teams setup. His draw the last 2 years have been basically him, and then 2 team members from the bottom quarter of ranking scores. His team got lucky this year and advanced on to the second round only because the other team shot a miss. He only dropped 2 nines during the 2 Team round matches, yet could not carry the lower seeded archers.

The bottom line. We had a great time, and were only upset when it was over and we had to go home.


----------



## archery bank (Aug 22, 2008)

ABourdage said:


> It also wouldn't be much work to give juniors their own elimination brackets...but some things are never going to change. Haha. I hope that the team rounds can be refined.


Would it be so bad to go back to a separate JOAD tournament?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

archery bank said:


> Would it be so bad to go back to a separate JOAD tournament?


Depends on who you ask. These days, with the numbers of professional full time archers growing and dominating the event anyway, I'm thinking we need a "pro" division within USArchery, and that would give USArchery permission to be a little more user-friendly with those of us who work outside the sport. 

Sheer numbers are going to force USArchery's hand at some point. So, either qualifications will be required to limit the numbers, or they will once again have to separate the events.


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I will try to find the spreadsheet for "the System"


----------



## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

luckycharlie said:


> Here was our experience from the Cadet Compound Male side.
> 
> - Heat and humidity. Wow, we kept hoping for the rain to help cool it off some. We are just not used to the humid climate, 2 showers and 2 sets of clothes each day required.
> .



I'm a local at about 30 minutes away. Too bad we didnt do it the week before, no rain at all. This time of year is just hit or miss anwhere in the southeast. Honestly it never really even got hot by our standards, although thats no help for folks that arent acclimated.

Glad you enjoyed it.


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Here's my take on team rounds. 

But lets first recognize what it is, and what it is not. IT IS a fun thing that the kids enjoy, IT IS NOT a formal competitive activity for the kids. IT IS a great way to meet other participants. IT IS NOT intended to be stressful on the kids or the parents or the Coaches. IT IS intended to be educational for the kids, Coaches, and parents. 

So perhaps it should be properly put to use as an ice-breaker, a stress reliever, a get-to-know-you game. Many of the kids show up at Nationals with all sorts of stress, this round could be a great way to calm down before the main event. No one going to Nationals, at any age, should need a full day of "Official Practice". So make the morning Official Practice, and the afternoon the EJN Team Rounds. 

Since the composition of the teams seems to be a problem (not unique to this year), some liberty can be taken with the system used to assemble the teams. Maybe use the scores from indoor nationals, or a virtual tournament. Maybe require that they participate in at least one outdoor tournament prior to Nationals. Those that don't have a posted score will be randomly teamed with others in their division. 

Or, simply eliminate any science from the process and have someone draw quiver numbers from a bowl. Three numbers, one team. Three more numbers, two teams. Three more numbers, three teams..............etc. etc. etc.

ETN Team rounds is a good thing! All the bickering about average arrow values 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 higher or lower is just not worth the time it takes to calculate those values. 

CP


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Just a few thoughts on Nationals this year...

I was entirely on the Bowman field coaching my student there. She did great winning the qualification and the elimination round for Bowman Compound Female. Unfortunately, I had to get back to Florida for my son leaving for the Marines on Sunday, so she didn't get a chance to get the GNC as well. 

I've never been a fan of how the teams are picked, but they are fun events to watch!

On a high note, we had some great judges on our field that went out of their way to help kids out and worked extra hard with language barriers with our guests from other countries. Hats off to all of them!

Only problem we had was with the night lighting on my archers target. Once they came on, my archer was shooting blind onto a wet target full of glare. The judges came to the rescue and moved everyone down a target so she could see the target clearly!

Overall, great weekend, minus the weather! Kept hearing the same word after all of it.....Indianapolis....

SB


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Here's my take on team rounds.
> 
> But lets first recognize what it is, and what it is not. IT IS a fun thing that the kids enjoy, IT IS NOT a formal competitive activity for the kids. IT IS a great way to meet other participants. IT IS NOT intended to be stressful on the kids or the parents or the Coaches. IT IS intended to be educational for the kids, Coaches, and parents.
> 
> ...




lets see- a kid is told he has to shoot the team rounds or he essentially can kiss any decent placement good bye. So he and his parents stay another night in the hotel and then show up on the field and see the team he has been put on and the kid realizes that the "drawing of the teams" is blatantly unfair and he has no chance of advancing past the first round. Tell me how that helps anything 

or a few years ago-the best kid on the field had another boy who was a good competitor. The last kid on the team had shot a SIX out of 360 that morning. The last kid shot every arrow through his clicker. The two other boys told him not to use the clicker. The boy wouldn't listen. He didn't speak much english had HAD NO PARENT OR A COACH there with him. So the top kid, asked me, a judge to tell the kid. I did. he told me he was wrong. He continued to miss. The other two boys got upset-rightfully so that the third kid was stubborn and wouldn't listen to anyone. The kid who kept shooting through the clicker never came back. He really shouldn't have been there and certainly not without a coach. I don't know what is accomplished by that sort of "social engineering"

so here is what needs to be done

NO AWARDS

Round Robins where everyone gets to shoot several matches. IT IS BLATANTLY UNFAIR TO THE POINT OF ALMOST BEING ACTIONABLE TO HAVE SUCH A PISS-POOR assembling of teams that dooms half the kids to HAVING NO CHANCE OF ADVANCING past one round.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gdrudd13 said:


> So just by sorting the first 36 archers, not the two under "not listed", you can sort teams and get the average arrow to only vary by less than .4 points per arrow. That's going with (for 36 archers) 1-12-36; 2-13-35, 3-14-34, etc. Doing that for a list sorted highest to lowest gives a minimum team average of 7.53, and a maximum team average of 7.90 (range of 0.37) which is far better than a minimum average of 6.79, max of 8.35 that occured (difference of 1.56). While that doesn't help for the ones that intentionally throw a match, or leave, at least the start would be more fair from a scores perspective. I'm sure by playing with the values, it could get even better, but as an easy way this seems to work decently well.



how can anyone justify a team where the HIGHEST ranked archer's average value is LESS than the average of several other teams. How can you justify a team where the LOWEST RANKED ARCHER on one team had a higher average value than many of the other teams?

Geun Kim	8.54
• Alex Bourdage • 8.53	Average value 8.35
*Micah Flores 7.98*

The "weakest" archer on that team had a higher average than SIX other teams!!


----------



## gdrudd13 (Feb 16, 2016)

That's why I suggested the method I used. I put it all into excel, took less than 5 minutes, and ended up more fair than the "random" method. The total variance in average arrow from the lowest team average to highest team average spread was about 1/4 of what the random method was. No way of forming teams will be perfect, but 5 minutes in excel can solve many people's problems with how the teams are formed, and do a far better job of evening the playing field. I'm also confident that someone who enjoys programming in excel (I don't) can write a macro that will form the teams so that the average arrow per team is even closer than what I got.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto said:


> Here's my take on team rounds.
> 
> *But lets first recognize what it is, and what it is not. IT IS a fun thing that the kids enjoy, IT IS NOT a formal competitive activity for the kids. IT IS a great way to meet other participants. IT IS NOT intended to be stressful on the kids or the parents or the Coaches. IT IS intended to be educational for the kids, Coaches, and parents.
> 
> ...


Hear, Hear! Good idea to put it on the evening of official practice too. I mean, they need practice and the team round will provide them good practice in an actual competitive situation, so what better practice can you ask for? Brilliant idea. I hope they are listening.

Frankly, I can't believe the EJN team round discussion has gone on this long. Of the four events (Nationals, US Open, Clout and Team) it is the least important of the three in terms of actual competition. The greatest value of team round is FUN. I think people who have trouble having a good time at an archery event might not see it that way, but that's how the kids see it.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> how can anyone justify a team where the HIGHEST ranked archer's average value is LESS than the average of several other teams. How can you justify a team where the LOWEST RANKED ARCHER on one team had a higher average value than many of the other teams?
> 
> Geun Kim	8.54
> • Alex Bourdage • 8.53	Average value 8.35
> ...


Jim, to that I say "so what?" 

I'm having trouble understanding how anyone can get so upset over a fun round that doesn't contribute to the overall ranking at the event. If there is any reason to be upset at the format, it's because not all the kids get an equal amount of experience, and if the argument by USArchery is that they must complete the team round to gain valuable experience shooting team events (and that has been their argument as evidenced by requiring them to shoot it) then choose a format that will ensure they all get an equal number of rounds so they all get an equal amount of experience. 

I seriously am starting to believe that USArchery no longer needs to hand out medals for the team event. It sends the wrong message to the parents.


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I know that many don't like participation awards. But JOAD Team rounds might be one of those situations where a small "2016 Team ETN Team Round" Pin might be the solution.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've always found that ice cream works well for teens on a hot summer day. 

So long as the "event" identifies a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place "team" then there will always be a few who complain. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Jim, to that I say "so what?"
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding how anyone can get so upset over a fun round that doesn't contribute to the overall ranking at the event. If there is any reason to be upset at the format, it's because not all the kids get an equal amount of experience, and if the argument by USArchery is that they must complete the team round to gain valuable experience shooting team events (and that has been their argument as evidenced by requiring them to shoot it) then choose a format that will ensure they all get an equal number of rounds so they all get an equal amount of experience.
> 
> I seriously am starting to believe that USArchery no longer needs to hand out medals for the team event. It sends the wrong message to the parents.


this seems to be a case of -well it really doesn't matter so why should USA A even give a mediocre effort in making it fair. 

how do you get valuable experience when you see you have been screwed over before the event even starts. And given what I have seen on Facebook, the kids who do win celebrate it almost as much as winning the main event.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I've always found that ice cream works well for teens on a hot summer day.
> 
> So long as the "event" identifies a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place "team" then there will always be a few who complain. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.


can you tell us why it would be so much work for USA A to actually pair the teams up in a somewhat fair distribution. Can you justify what was done in the division I examined? as My late mother used to say (probably millions of mothers probably said it) if You are going to do something, you might as well do it right. Well if the USA A is going to require this, why cannot they make at least a passing effort to do it right?


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I think we all agree that the current set up for Team Rounds is not working. The fact that the kids like it is reason enough to keep it. Maybe add team rounds for Senior and Masters.

One option is to make it completely voluntary, no effect on Grand National Champion.

Option two, if it is left in as part of the overall then make the teams as close as possible to the age group average. 

Option three, leave it alone and muddle through it.

Option four, separate part of the tournament where the clubs bring their own teams.

Option five, no more team rounds.

Options one and three, no awards.

Options two and four, awards.

Team rounds are a blast, I would hate to see them go away.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well now that the pot is fully stirred as it regards team rounds........

Am I the only one who misses how Teresa Johnson covered events for USAA? She always penned a nice recap of events, which included podium finishers. Her photos were excellent and tried to capture all competitors. All of this took thoughtful planning and execution. This year I didn't see any recap of Indoor Nationals, or Outdoor Nationals. I think especially with Indoor Nationals a recap would have been appropriate. The event was spread out for months and needed someone to tie it together and recognize those who performed well. It is one of those details that can make an event special for archers.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> this seems to be a case of -well it really doesn't matter so why should USA A even give a mediocre effort in making it fair.
> 
> how do you get valuable experience when you see you have been screwed over before the event even starts. And given what I have seen on Facebook, the kids who do win celebrate it almost as much as winning the main event.


Like I said, if the purpose of requiring the team event is to ensure these JOAD kids get experience, then they should just change the format so that every kid gets to shoot at least two matches, or three, or whatever, and do away with the medals. I think the medals are getting in the way of the event. They are creating too much focus on winning an event where the focus should be on having fun and learning to shoot a team round. I am sure some kids are proud of their team medals. But they are kids. What I don't understand are the parents - who should understand the event for what it is - getting hysterical about who wins and who loses. That's not at all what the JOAD team round is about. 

I agree that if they are going to do it, they should do it right. Add that to the long, long list of things USArchery could do better. However we all probably have our own opinion of what "right" is. When we host the Texas State JOAD Outdoor event, we offer a team round and give bags of candy to the teams who finish in the top 3. They usually share that with all the other kids. And we always have double elimination matchplay for the individual matches to ensure that every kid gets at least two matches so long as they are not a one-person division. Even if they are a one-person division, I handicap that group based on their scores, and they are all put into the "open" bracket, ensuring that those who want to get at least two matches. In other words, we work hard to maximize the experience for the kids. They will all have decades in the sport to take things "seriously" as adults. I often SMH at how seriously some people get about this youth event. Like it's the greatest accomplishment that child will ever know.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Well now that the pot is fully stirred as it regards team rounds........
> 
> Am I the only one who misses how Teresa Johnson covered events for USAA? She always penned a nice recap of events, which included podium finishers. Her photos were excellent and tried to capture all competitors. All of this took thoughtful planning and execution. This year I didn't see any recap of Indoor Nationals, or Outdoor Nationals. I think especially with Indoor Nationals a recap would have been appropriate. The event was spread out for months and needed someone to tie it together and recognize those who performed well. It is one of those details that can make an event special for archers.


No. Not at all. She is dearly missed. Teresa cared at a level few people do. And it showed through her work for USArchery.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Well now that the pot is fully stirred as it regards team rounds........
> 
> Am I the only one who misses how Teresa Johnson covered events for USAA? She always penned a nice recap of events, which included podium finishers. Her photos were excellent and tried to capture all competitors. All of this took thoughtful planning and execution. This year I didn't see any recap of Indoor Nationals, or Outdoor Nationals. I think especially with Indoor Nationals a recap would have been appropriate. The event was spread out for months and needed someone to tie it together and recognize those who performed well. It is one of those details that can make an event special for archers.


Where did she go?


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Like I said, if the purpose of requiring the team event is to ensure these JOAD kids get experience, then they should just change the format so that every kid gets to shoot at least two matches, or three, or whatever, and do away with the medals. I think the medals are getting in the way of the event. They are creating too much focus on winning an event where the focus should be on having fun and learning to shoot a team round. I am sure some kids are proud of their team medals. But they are kids. What I don't understand are the parents - who should understand the event for what it is - getting hysterical about who wins and who loses. That's not at all what the JOAD team round is about.
> 
> I agree that if they are going to do it, they should do it right. Add that to the long, long list of things USArchery could do better. However we all probably have our own opinion of what "right" is. When we host the Texas State JOAD Outdoor event, we offer a team round and give bags of candy to the teams who finish in the top 3. They usually share that with all the other kids. And we always have double elimination matchplay for the individual matches to ensure that every kid gets at least two matches so long as they are not a one-person division. Even if they are a one-person division, I handicap that group based on their scores, and they are all put into the "open" bracket, ensuring that those who want to get at least two matches. In other words, we work hard to maximize the experience for the kids. They will all have decades in the sport to take things "seriously" as adults. I often SMH at how seriously some people get about this youth event. Like it's the greatest accomplishment that child will ever know.


I agree with this.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Where did she go?


She left USArchery for other opportunities. Archery 360 is her baby among other things. Sad that USArchery let her walk away. Very sad.


----------

