# Pros Competing not Visible to Spectators ????



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*What*

I have walked and watched the pros at many 3d events. Spectators can walk the ranges.

DB


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

While the Pro classes are available for spectating, cenochs has some good ideas. The large, constantly updated scoreboard is a great idea and much needed for the media aspect of the sport. Also, setting up bleachers to watch the last 10 targets is a good idea on paper. I am not sure how it would work in a heavily wooded course, but I am sure there could be something similar that would work.

I sort of envision professional archery very similar to professional golf. If you have seen some of my prior posts on the topic, you will see that is a common theme with me, as the two sports are rather similar. The problem is that to put on a golf tournament, it costs the network about 22million dollars. This is paid for by the fact that 10's of millions of people watch golf, and almost as many play it. 

The sad fact is that until archery has as many participants as golf, it won't really be taken seriously by the media, as there is no real financial benefit to the networks. It's all about the Benjamins these days, and archery won't do it, at least not right now.

Not trying to be a downer, but looking at things from a realistic point of view. Never the less, it is creative thinking and the implementation of ideas that will make our sport more spectator friendly, and that is a step in the right direction.

CG


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

Have to disagree about participation plus media exposure. This is my thoughts only.......the head of the organizations don't want growth at that level because they will loose control. I look at Bass fishing when it started.......a vision was set for the future......media exposure was used and look how it grew.........My intent is not to cause an agrument but just express my thoughts. 

I WANT ARCHEY TO GROW BECAUSE MY GRANDSONS ARE INVOLVED IN THIS GREAT SPORT.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*?*



Daniel Boone said:


> I have walked and watched the pros at many 3d events. Spectators can walk the ranges.
> 
> DB



I know you are referring to ASA Pro Ams DB but at IBO events the IBO takes and hides the PROS that would be the same as going to a NASCAR race and not being able to enter the race! ASA does do a little better of a job but nothing even remotely close as is should be at the Pro Ams...if you have a imagination and think about how much more could be done to improve how the Pro Am events could be ran for spectators and media it would be a whole new world!!


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## gud235 (Feb 7, 2004)

It would help if the head of the organizations cared about archery and cared to see it grow. It seems they don't want big sponsors (budweiser, Pepsi, under armor). Bass fishing got those outside sponsors years ago, now look at it. Golf has outside sponsors, insurance companys, brokerage firms, GM, to name a few, look at those payouts! As stated earlier, I also believe they're scared they will lose control.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I hate to hear the organizations may not want the sport to grow because they may lose control...how about just starting small and have just one tournament like the classic with all the above mentioned changes for spectators and coverage and take money from each sponsor that sponsors the Pro Ams and put it in a large Pool to pay for one heck of a classic!! I guess I am just a dreamer and would like to see a great sport grow and see it's full potential!!!!!!


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Organizations*



> It would help if the head of the organizations cared about archery and cared to see it grow. It seems they don't want big sponsors



What are you talking about, if they didn't want archery to grow they wouldn't spend so much time preparing events. Archery grows from getting people involved. 

Look at how many people fish, play golf, and watch nascar and so on. Do you think it started overnight? Golf has been around around a 100 years. racing for ever. IBO was start around 1984, and i think ASA was in early 90s. That's not long to have sponsors busting down the door.

How would you get some big named people to sponsor events, some one has to push it. We could have some collective minds(group of people willing to spend time for no payment) brain storming to come up with ideas to push sponsor to promote archery. 

Now this idea is great! the score board for the pros would be a cool idea.

Jim


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## shooter280 (Mar 8, 2010)

gud235 said:


> It would help if the head of the organizations cared about archery and cared to see it grow. It seems they don't want big sponsors (budweiser, Pepsi, under armor). Bass fishing got those outside sponsors years ago, now look at it. Golf has outside sponsors, insurance companys, brokerage firms, GM, to name a few, look at those payouts! As stated earlier, I also believe they're scared they will lose control.


i agree


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

ASA & IBO are who needs to be knocking on the doors of sponsors.....they aren't going to come to you. It still seems these great organizations are lacking a vision. My thoughts


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

True, sponsors don't come to you, but when you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them that by sponsoring your organization, they are making a sound investment that will allow them to incease their revenue. Think about it this way. Levi Morgan is sponsored by Mathews because he attends almost every tournament, represents himself and the company well, and also happens to be a very good shooter. This does influence some people to shoot Mathews products (if the top pros use it, it must be good). 

The IBO/ASA need to show their sponsors that by signing up with them, they will see increased interest in their product. That's what sponsorship is all about. I would think then, that sponsors would like to see large numbers of participants and spectators at events.

As for the organizors losing control of there were more participation, that maybe so. In that case, something similar to the PGA would need to be formed. That is a single governing body that is run by both shooters and tournament organizors, that would have a standard set of rules. Imagine how frustrated a professional golfer would be if he/she had to play by a totally different set of rules for each tournament. Golf wouldn't work. Why should archery be any different? A common, unified group of shooters (all who participated in tournament archery) and the tournament organizors all acting as one unit, to ensure that there is fair competition and positive representation of their sport. 

Those are my thoughts on it, and hopefully someday, a professional archery tour type format will appear. Like has been said before, it will only take a few people with vision and determination to pull it off.

CG


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*Great Post !*

I totally agree one unified set of rules and governing body is the only way to move forward ! I like your vision it takes people with like you to help archery move to the next level!



IBOHunt3D said:


> True, sponsors don't come to you, but when you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them that by sponsoring your organization, they are making a sound investment that will allow them to incease their revenue. Think about it this way. Levi Morgan is sponsored by Mathews because he attends almost every tournament, represents himself and the company well, and also happens to be a very good shooter. This does influence some people to shoot Mathews products (if the top pros use it, it must be good).
> 
> The IBO/ASA need to show their sponsors that by signing up with them, they will see increased interest in their product. That's what sponsorship is all about. I would think then, that sponsors would like to see large numbers of participants and spectators at events.
> 
> ...


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Conisder the numbers here. There were more people on local golf courses this weekend than the total number of archers in this country. There were more people watching the WGC event this weekend than the total number of archers. More people fish than shoot target archery.

Add em up. Take every major archery tournament this year and add up all of the participants, you will be at what, 50k total.......maybe????? There were more spectators at the PGA event this weekend than that.

Sponsorship is all about eyeballs. Companies are not going to fork out big bucks for an incredibly small viewership. Golf has the draw that archery does not have, heads of industry and multi-billion dollar corporations that are golfers. Business is conducted on golf courses every day in this country. When was the last time anyone ever heard of a sales guy taking a client out to the local archery range?

Archery is what it is, a niche hobby.

When one sits down and realizes the costs behind attempting to do live scoring on a 3D range it is overwhelming. It is done at Vegas, paid by Easton, because it is significatnly simpler indoors. Cabling costs are miniscule when the competitors are all indoors.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

I just hear the IBO has a secluded shoot off(never played IBO), the ASA has a public shootoff, but many of the potential viewers are still shooting their competitions. I would love to see the sport grow, the European Archery Tour has a good format which is golf inspired...hopefully that format grows and migrates west!


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Rey, you are unfortunately for the sport of archery, 100% correct in your observations. There are not enough people participating to make it worth the while for major sponsorship. 

Cenochs, thanks for the kind words. I am hoping to get in with the right group of people to at least attempt to make my vision a reality. 

Will archery ever get the positive publicity that other major sporting events get? Very doubtful. But can we make the game as spectator (and sponsor) friendly as possible, while still keeping a high level of competition? I sure would like to hope so.

Also, while we are sort of on the subject of participation, support your local NASP program. That is the only way for many young people to get introduced to the sport, and everyone who is involved in archery, should try to convince their local school district that archery is in fact an athletic activity that is worthwhile for young people to compete in. If we could get 25 kids a year, from every school district in the nation, to love archery as a target sport, think about the participation we would have in ten years. 

With any luck at all, this increased participation in the sport would result in increased public acceptance of target archery, and the building of more public archery ranges. Think about it-you can't drive 25 miles in most places without there being a golf course. How many public archery ranges do you see? I think there are about 10 here in OH. There are that many golf courses (and then some) in my county. So accessibility is also a problem. There simply are fewer places to shoot. Its kind of hard to get a kid in high school to work his/her butt off in order to buy a good target rig, that they wouldn't be able to use very often. 

So there you have it. Increased participation and increased accessibility. I address these in this thread because we all know we need to provide the media and sponsors with assurance that their investment in our sport will be a sound one. Rather than start by trying to get sponsors, let's get shooters (a lot of them) and then try for sponsors.

CG


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Student archer- The ASA Pro shootdown usually occurs at 1:00pm on Sunday. Most all(if not all) of the amateur classes shoot at 8 and are done. If folks don't watch the Pro Shootdown it is because they chose to hit the road for home.

The Texas ProAm and the Classic are the exceptions. The Pro Shootdown is held Saturday night. At Texas it is usually around 6 and at the Classic it is held indoors at around 7.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree with the current numbers but if we continue to set back on our hunches it's always going to stay the same. It seems two of the major 3D organizations are operating from the definition of INSANITY........doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If a new 3D venue was established with a vision for growth it would take off. As far as open c, unlimited or whatever class........if we all didn't hope to win something the attendance would even drop lower. How many folks do you think just come out to shoot for fun. The Pro's, Semi Pro's I know they aren't shooting for fun. As well as all of the other classes......I thought that's why we had a novice class ..shoot for fun. They are sponsors out there that would probably be interested with the amount of local impact is has on the shoot sites. Look at clothing, shoes, gas, hotels, resurant chains....the list goes on. Just my thoughts............


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## Rush (May 16, 2005)

Hey, why don't some of us go to the IBO website and post these ideas? There is a thread started over the called, "Pros infront of the Joes" that is talking some about this. They'll never do anything about it if they don't hear it! So go over there and post some ideas! I too would like to see the pros shooting infront of everyone, and the score board idea is great!

http://www.iboforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=338&p=1384#p1384


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Is there anyone on here who associates with some of the executives in the companies that would make good sponsors? Like Budweiser for instance. If there are any archers on here that know the CEO or some of the higher management, try to get them to try archery for themselves. 

If you could get some of these folks to become archers themselves, they would have a lot better understanding of the sport, and would be much more likely to consider sponsorship of an event. 

If they have no clue what it is about, they will most likely just shrug off the idea without consideration.

That is my one suggestion for this thread. :thumbs_up


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Its funny when guys say archery does not have enough people shooting for major sponsors. Have you ever seen the world cup's sponsors? KIA(car company), a bank(forget the name), longnines (sp??) a high dollar watch company, and many others. How many archery compete at it? I bet if you actually were to sit down with some companies sponsors might come. Why wouldnt a truck company sponsor an event or events? I have fished in some pretty big bass tournaments where they give away a boat and cash for first place, usually 400+ boats in the event. So 2 guys a boat and the amount of people is less than a usual pro/am. Look at the Aflac outdoor games, why cant it be the Ford Trucks ASA Pro/am? The issues are no one is thinking outside of the box, its just the normal thing.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree.........you have to think out of the box to grow. But I still say it's about loosing control if it gets larger.........


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Chenochs*

I totally agree with you. 

I recently attended my first national shoot, Nelsonville. 
I stayed with friends who are Pros, I had to drive to Nelsonville from our campground each day to compete. 

The campground was close to where they had to shoot. 

When I asked them why the pros were kept away they told me that they used to shoot the same courses as the ameteurs, but over they years there were too many people "Sharing" the yardage with the pros, too may complained and the only solution they could come up with is to separate them from the ameteurs.

They also told me that the pepole who run the shoots want to do is "Get it over with and go home"

I truly believe that if the newbees had the chance to meet and watch some of the pros participate this would do wonders to encourage shooters.


I personally know some of the pros who would love to be able to shoot with the ameteurs and spend time just talking with them. 
After attending that shoot I am definately more of a fan of the ASA, it seems to have a friendlier atmosphere.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*ASA has a better format for competeing!*

One of the differences that makes a ASA Event so much better is schelduled courses and shoot times! Everyone has to shoot at the same time so the competition is on a level playing field. In the IBO someone can drive in Friday shoot all the targets in perfect weather and head home then the other competitors that shoot the weekend may be shooting in bad weather and a crowded course! And to beat all the guy that shot all the targets on Friday can warn his buddies about tough targets and tell them what he shot it for and so on! Format wise ASA has the better of the 2. IBO is just put out targets and let whom ever when ever shoot and collect the money !!!! 



XForce Girl said:


> I totally agree with you.
> 
> I recently attended my first national shoot, Nelsonville.
> I stayed with friends who are Pros, I had to drive to Nelsonville from our campground each day to compete.
> ...


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## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*exposure*

True there are many similarities between golf and archery, but there are also many differnces. Like:
Most towns have golf course near by, Most towns do not have a 3d course near by.
you can practice your golf swing in your back yard. Alot of people here on a.t. cant shoot in their back yard without fear of being arrested.
Payouts... Golf is mega boring to watch on t.v. but people get worked up when Tiger wins a couple million dollars for winning a event... Payouts in shoots are sad... Win worlds and you get a couple grand and a belt buckle, granted I would love to have one!!! 
watch the buck masters, and guys win like 10 grand, four wheelers, all kinds of cool stuff.... how come its not like that for IBO, ASA? Even if you do finish in top 3 the payout barely covers the cost of travel, hotel, food, if it does at all. Aside from the "prestige" of winning, what is the driving force to attend all of the shoots + travel?
Truth is very few people can make a living at archery. if sponsors chipped into making payouts big, you might see a spike in attendance, and more interest in the sport.
that is why alot of people are always trying to get sponsors, Archery is not a cheap sport, payouts are bad, and every little bit helps.


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## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*also*

When there is a big golf event. the spectators are not permitted to play on the course with the pro's... . You can fence off shooting areas, like they do for golf, to keep the spectators back. Have the pro's shoot , and when their competition is over, then open it to the other classes. or spectators.. leave it open so that the people can shoot the "same course as the pros"... 
How many people can go play a round on pebble beach for example, or some other famous golf course... keep course open an extra day, and charge the local community a fee to shoot the course.. People can see what it is like to shoot the same course the pro's do, get to see what it's all about to be at that level...... that alone might generate more interest, they sell most of those targets anyway, why not use them.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

That's not quite right on everybody shoots the same day, same time in ASA. There are some that are allowed to shoot all of their targets on one day. Special needs are addressed by ASA and I personally thing that's a good thing.


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## gud235 (Feb 7, 2004)

XForce Girl;105848
They also told me that the pepole who run the shoots want to do is "Get it over with and go home"
[/QUOTE said:


> That goes to show how much they care about archery.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*Very small percentage*



Bowtech54 said:


> That's not quite right on everybody shoots the same day, same time in ASA. There are some that are allowed to shoot all of their targets on one day. Special needs are addressed by ASA and I personally thing that's a good thing.


You are talking about a very small percentage! Not even a issue on the comment I posted earlier!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*You are correct*

I love golf also and when I go play I know there is 18 holes with par 3's par 4's and 5's correct! But archery is so messed up that the 2 organizations and local clubs use different targets! It would be nice if there was a set standard of targets that each organization used and local clubs could follow so if you wanted to go and practice at local clubs you would get good practice on targets that would be used at national tournaments! It would be like in golf having no set layout or rules for a course and playing all Par 3's at your local golf club and then going out of state to a course and playing a course with all par 5's you would be at a disadvantage! Archery needs one set of rules and one set of targets so local clubs can be more universal! Wouldn't it be nice to know if you shot in Kentucky or Texas that clubs would have the same targets!!!! It would be great !!!!



Bird Dogg said:


> True there are many similarities between golf and archery, but there are also many differnces. Like:
> Most towns have golf course near by, Most towns do not have a 3d course near by.
> you can practice your golf swing in your back yard. Alot of people here on a.t. cant shoot in their back yard without fear of being arrested.
> Payouts... Golf is mega boring to watch on t.v. but people get worked up when Tiger wins a couple million dollars for winning a event... Payouts in shoots are sad... Win worlds and you get a couple grand and a belt buckle, granted I would love to have one!!!
> ...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Golf*



cenochs said:


> I love golf also and when I go play I know there is 18 holes with par 3's par 4's and 5's correct! But archery is so messed up that the 2 organizations and local clubs use different targets! It would be nice if there was a set standard of targets that each organization used and local clubs could follow so if you wanted to go and practice at local clubs you would get good practice on targets that would be used at national tournaments! It would be like in golf having no set layout or rules for a course and playing all Par 3's at your local golf club and then going out of state to a course and playing a course with all par 5's you would be at a disadvantage! Archery needs one set of rules and one set of targets so local clubs can be more universal! Wouldn't it be nice to know if you shot in Kentucky or Texas that clubs would have the same targets!!!! It would be great !!!!


I stink at Golf. 

But anyway, although golf is a bigger sport, Archery must start somewhere, it grow into a larger sport.

At my club there are only 5 of us who run the shoots, we work really hard and many have said we have the best course in the state. 

If the people who run the large tournaments would put in the work and effort to make the shoots enjoyable and fair to all. It could certainly make great strides in growing the sport of archery. and having some access to the pros would also be a good thing.

I hope they read this.


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## Bowman991 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Things to consider....*

1) get youth involved..NASP...Local clubs get going on the youth...

2) get all archers on the same page and decide what format to do...

3) make the calls to the sponsors..promote..promote..promote

4) make it interesting to the average person...family

5) find some way to break out of the 90-10 syndrome...90% of the work being done by 10% of the people....

putting heads together like this and letting loose of the control for bettering archery..It can happen....Who wants to make it happen????


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

It is if they get to shoot on a pretty day and you have to shoot in a down pour.......!!!!!


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