# Yardgae Estimation with Binoculars



## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

I hope it isn't true. Seems unethical for competition to me (but might be handy for hunting).


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Yes, you can use binoculars to range targets... you will also be disqualified if caught doing it. It's considered cheating...


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## biga1976 (Jan 24, 2006)

yes you can but it is cheating so i dont even try to learn how to do this.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Yardage Estimation with Binoculars*

Yep, cheating. Take a look at the adjustment screw or wing. If marks on it somebody may be using it for that purpose, cheating.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I've heard that you have to have a high power optic to be able to do it. I may be wrong but it would seem with a lower power there just not that much adjustment when looking at thing under 40yds


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Lets see -a $1500 dollar pair of binos that can focus in crisp and clearly on a fly at 40 yards by using it's almost exact tolerace precision focusing adjustment and the adjusting wheel has lettering on it that you could use for referance. I have no problems seeing the rings with my $300 binos, I wonder why all those dudes at these amature events are carrying around binos worth more than than my whole set-up? Ya think maybe?


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

Some of the focus knobs even have clicks!


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

farmerd said:


> I have heard of some people being able to estimate yardage fairly accurately with binoculars. I don't know if this is a fairy tail or has some truth to it. Does anyone out there know of any way to confirm or deny this?


I'll just answer the question assuming this will be used for practice, where it's legal or for other purposes where it's allowed.

If you have a quality pair of optics (Tasco, Bushnell and Wal-mart need not apply)....and you have a fine adjustment for the focus, then yes you can estimate yardage to a point if you have previously "calibrated" those binoculars by the hash marks on the focus knob. This is one of the reasons that there is a magnification limit in most 3D venues. If there was no limit, somebody could very precisely measure distance to the yard with a quality set of binoculars.


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## farmerd (May 31, 2005)

Doc,

Thanks for the reply. Please allow me to stress that I am not inquiring about this so that I can utilize this as a means to "cheat." I am simply inquiring b/c I have heard others talk about this and was curious if it was even possible. Now I know that it is and what to look fo if anyone in my group tries to get away with it.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Not necessarily so. There are other ways to use the optics to range a target and this page gives some clues into how it can be done. There are more than one pair of binocs out there with "scratches" on the lenses

http://www.excaliburenterprises.com/scopes/mil-dot.html

Now if you want to get into how many degrees there is between your first second and third knuckle, things get interesting.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Hutnicks said:


> Not necessarily so. There are other ways to use the optics to range a target and this page gives some clues into how it can be done. There are more than one pair of binocs out there with "scratches" on the lenses
> 
> http://www.excaliburenterprises.com/scopes/mil-dot.html
> 
> Now if you want to get into how many degrees there is between your first second and third knuckle, things get interesting.


Differant concept but interesting, I know what my pin gap is supposed to look like at differant yardages but now that you bring it up the magnification would make that measurement way more precise.


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## DRFrance (Feb 4, 2006)

*bino yardage*

sad but true ... some can and some can't.

Still it is much better to strive to learn your own depth perception and estimate yardage the old fashioned way. Such short cuts do not replace developed talent.

Promote the sport and please be ethical when you are at your shoots.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> Lets see -a $1500 dollar pair of binos that can focus in crisp and clearly on a fly at 40 yards by using it's almost exact tolerace precision focusing adjustment and the adjusting wheel has lettering on it that you could use for referance. I have no problems seeing the rings with my $300 binos, I wonder why all those dudes at these amature events are carrying around binos worth more than than my whole set-up? Ya think maybe?


So now because someone can afford better binos then you they are cheating.:embara:


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> So now because someone can afford better binos then you they are cheating.:embara:


No, I beat them anyway but you can use that excuse when they beat you. You seem to be one of those crying types


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> No, I beat them anyway but you can use that excuse when they beat you. You seem to be one of those crying types


You are a funny guy....but not nearly as funny as you think.:embara:

Besides crying is a 3D thing. :wink:


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> You are a funny guy....but not nearly as funny as you think.:embara:
> 
> Besides crying is a 3D thing. :wink:


Sorry, but that just sounded like a leading question that had to be dealt with. Is it cheating if theres no way of proving it? The ASA allows any power so apparently they don't think it's a problem. I never used a pair of binos on live game to find the spot, why use them on the range, if you missed the spot you could only blame yourself for not knowing the targets. I shoot pins and each of my pins cover about four inches of drop, if my next pin down from the one I'm aiming on center with is below and off a deer sized target I know I've under estimated it, is that cheating?


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> I never used a pair of binos on live game to find the spot, why use them on the range, if you missed the spot you could only blame yourself for not knowing the targets.


A lot of us don't compare 3D and hunting. I look at 3D the same way as I look at spots shooting...There's an x ring that I want to hit. I'm not out there preparing for deer season, pig season, or dinosaur season. I like challenging shots and angles that I don't get with spots shooting, but whether or not someone uses binos to look at (or range) an animal has no bearing on whether or not I use binos to precisely locate the spot I'm going for. 
I'd partially agree with your statement if every shot at every 3D was a perfectly broadside shot on flat ground. Fortunately, that's hardly the case. There's nothing wrong with using binos to check out a target, as long as it doesn't take ridiculously long.
We all have our opinions though! :wink:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Besides, high priced binos help make you look cool, dude. :rock-on: Goes with graphite covered limbs, candy colored riser, shades, and a logo shirt! 
Its more important to look good than to shoot good, and they look marvelous. :hail::hail::clap2:


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

kcarcherguy said:


> A lot of us don't compare 3D and hunting. I look at 3D the same way as I look at spots shooting...There's an x ring that I want to hit. I'm not out there preparing for deer season, pig season, or dinosaur season. I like challenging shots and angles that I don't get with spots shooting, but whether or not someone uses binos to look at (or range) an animal has no bearing on whether or not I use binos to precisely locate the spot I'm going for.
> I'd partially agree with your statement if every shot at every 3D was a perfectly broadside shot on flat ground. Fortunately, that's hardly the case. There's nothing wrong with using binos to check out a target, as long as it doesn't take ridiculously long.
> We all have our opinions though! :wink:


You only responded to the part of the quote. What do you say about the rest of it?


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

It's possible to cheat using binos, yes. It's possible to cheat using a scope, yes. It's possible to cheat using pins, yes.
If someone wants to be a scumbag and cheat, they will do it. If someone beats you by cheating and you can prove it, then prove it. Generally, the guys who are always at the top are winning because they are better than the rest. It takes skill, allot of practice and the right personality and work ethic to be a winner. The folks who always complain about cheaters generally aren't winners because they don't have what it takes.

Check this out......you shoot a target thats at 34yds and you drill the 12. You know it's 34yds because you just judged it for 34yds and hit exactly where you aimed. Your binos are already dialed in for perfect focus for 34yds and you get to the next target....this target gives you a problem because the ground is blocked, the targets feet are covered or whatever...you put the bino's on the target and have to adjust the focus because it's closer than the previous target, is this cheating? Hell no, it isn't cheating, it's good management of range estimation skills. Get with the program or don't compete.


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## 3DZapper (Dec 30, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> Lets see -a $1500 dollar pair of binos that can focus in crisp and clearly on a fly at 40 yards by using it's almost exact tolerace precision focusing adjustment *and the adjusting wheel has lettering on it that you could use for referance.* I have no problems seeing the rings with my $300 binos, I wonder why all those dudes at these amature events are carrying around binos worth more than than my whole set-up? Ya think maybe?





loujo61 said:


> Sorry, but that just sounded like a leading question that had to be dealt with. Is it cheating if theres no way of proving it? The ASA allows any power so apparently they don't think it's a problem. I never used a pair of binos on live game to find the spot, why use them on the range, if you missed the spot you could only blame yourself for not knowing the targets.* I shoot pins and each of my pins cover about four inches of drop, if my next pin down from the one I'm aiming on center with is below and off a deer sized target I know I've under estimated it, is that cheating?*


"C. BINOCULARS AND RANGEFINDERS 
1, An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the assistance of range-finding devices or assistance from others. Therefore, cameras, rangefinders, or any other devices that may be used to calculate yardage to the target are prohibited. *An archer may not use parts of his or her body, the bow, or any other accessories or equipment to calculate yardage. Any mark on otherwise legal binoculars that could be construed as a reference point for range finding is prohibited." *

Both you and the person with marked binoculars are cheating.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

3DZapper said:


> "C. BINOCULARS AND RANGEFINDERS
> 1, An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the assistance of range-finding devices or assistance from others. Therefore, cameras, rangefinders, or any other devices that may be used to calculate yardage to the target are prohibited. *An archer may not use parts of his or her body, the bow, or any other accessories or equipment to calculate yardage. Any mark on otherwise legal binoculars that could be construed as a reference point for range finding is prohibited." *
> 
> Both you and the person with marked binoculars are cheating.


So all people who can afford good binos, marked binos, and people who shoot pins are cheaters


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

loujo61, what he's saying is that people that use their pins *in the manner you described* aren't playing by the rules. Not everyone uses their pins as "creatively" as you described, or their binoculars for that matter.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jonnybow said:


> It's possible to cheat using binos, yes. It's possible to cheat using a scope, yes. It's possible to cheat using pins, yes.
> If someone wants to be a scumbag and cheat, they will do it. If someone beats you by cheating and you can prove it, then prove it. Generally, the guys who are always at the top are winning because they are better than the rest. It takes skill, allot of practice and the right personality and work ethic to be a winner. The folks who always complain about cheaters generally aren't winners because they don't have what it takes.
> 
> Check this out......you shoot a target thats at 34yds and you drill the 12. You know it's 34yds because you just judged it for 34yds and hit exactly where you aimed. Your binos are already dialed in for perfect focus for 34yds and you get to the next target....this target gives you a problem because the ground is blocked, the targets feet are covered or whatever...you put the bino's on the target and have to adjust the focus because it's closer than the previous target, is this cheating? Hell no, it isn't cheating, it's good management of range estimation skills. Get with the program or don't compete.


So people who use binos,scopes and pins are scumbags and according to you your a scumbag too, that little trick with the binos you spoke of is CHEATING!


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## bowtechExVFT17 (Mar 5, 2005)

Oh just shut up you Scumbag. Maybe you feel guilty. Thats just a thought. No.. That is common sense. If you have your binocular marked for 35.40.45. etc. yards, that is cheating. I think everybody does what jonnybow is talking about. You don't know if it is five yards closer, ten yards or even one. It is common sense. Get some, then come back onto AT. Your very sad and pathetic.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Make me and prove it!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Exlain this*



loujo61 said:


> So all people who can afford good binos, marked binos, and people who shoot pins are cheaters



How many can go judge with no binos in hand and be within 1 1/2" yrds on twenty target average. We have had contest on judging many times in early days. It just not that hard to judge. Sad many just cant believe someone can judge that well. 
DB


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## hoyteaston (Sep 6, 2006)

*Listen To Yourselves*

WOW!!! Whats going on with you guys?! Arguing and fighting over something the likes of which you can't control. Any sport has its "cheaters". Sounds to me like none of you fall into this category, so why ***** about one another? Nothing is ever going to stop it completly,some people will find a way to gain an advantage (making up for something they lack?) At the end of the day all you can do is your best to be the best, and QUIT worrying about everyone else. They have to sleep at night with their conscience


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

hoyteaston said:


> WOW!!! Whats going on with you guys?! Arguing and fighting over something the likes of which you can't control. Any sport has its "cheaters". Sounds to me like none of you fall into this category, so why ***** about one another? Nothing is ever going to stop it completly,some people will find a way to gain an advantage (making up for something they lack?) At the end of the day all you can do is your best to be the best, and QUIT worrying about everyone else. They have to sleep at night with their conscience


Well said! It was a pretty legit discussion but somebody had to get their panties bunched up.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> How many can go judge with no binos in hand and be within 1 1/2" yrds on twenty target average. We have had contest on judging many times in early days. It just not that hard to judge. Sad many just cant believe someone can judge that well.
> DB


I know there are people out there that can judge yardage and I'm trying not to fight or argue with anyone but the bottom line is you CAN use a good pair of binos to assist in your 3D game.I think 3D is a "creative" venue even with all it's rules and regulations but these rules and regs seem about as effective as our gun laws are to our criminals and just about as silly too.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Some folks seem to think 3D is like NASCAR...bend the rules past breaking, just don't get caught.
People who don't play by the rules will always be with us. But they will never know the true satisfaction of reaching personal goals regardless of what other people might be achieving.
As my old high school coach used to say, "Cheaters never win and winners never cheat." Pretty solid, eh?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Amazing*



loujo61 said:


> I know there are people out there that can judge yardage and I'm trying not to fight or argue with anyone but the bottom line is you CAN use a good pair of binos to assist in your 3D game.I think 3D is a "creative" venue even with all it's rules and regulations but these rules and regs seem about as effective as our gun laws are to our criminals and just about as silly too.


Wonder how my buddy in just his third year won shooter of the year in Semi pro. Confused because I know most these top pros and lots of amatuers and I dont feel or see them cheating. Gish most are otu judging and shooting ever weekend. Yeah they have good binos. Heck even Im able to win ever now and then. If this cheating is so easy to do why isnt everyone winning. Using binos for range finder isnt easy and damn near impossiable. Now if someone wants to take this challenge and show me.
I would like to see this done with Swaroskis. Looks ike all the cheaters would win
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Called a disscusion*



hoyteaston said:


> WOW!!! Whats going on with you guys?! Arguing and fighting over something the likes of which you can't control. Any sport has its "cheaters". Sounds to me like none of you fall into this category, so why ***** about one another? Nothing is ever going to stop it completly,some people will find a way to gain an advantage (making up for something they lack?) At the end of the day all you can do is your best to be the best, and QUIT worrying about everyone else. They have to sleep at night with their conscience



No ones arguing and no one fighting. 
DB


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Wonder how my buddy in just his third year won shooter of the year in Semi pro. Confused because I know most these top pros and lots of amatuers and I dont feel or see them cheating. Gish most are otu judging and shooting ever weekend. Yeah they have good binos. Heck even Im able to win ever now and then. If this cheating is so easy to do why isnt everyone winning. Using binos for range finder isnt easy and damn near impossiable. Now if someone wants to take this challenge and show me.
> I would like to see this done with Swaroskis. Looks ike all the cheaters would win
> DB


Exactly DB....you can come up with a system to use your binos or gapping with pins...both methods are ILLEGAL. But that doesn't mean you are gonna win or have a real adavantage. You still have to make the shot.

How many ASA shooters shot on the marked ranges this year and shot better then they did the first day? How many shot up? Not as many as you would think.:embara:

You could give most a rangefinder and Jeff, Dan, Nathan, Eric and all the other great 3Ders are still gonna kick your butt...EVERYTIME just about.


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## 3DZapper (Dec 30, 2002)

I shot my personal best score ever, 340 with 20 12s, at Norwich Archery Club's known distance shoot in MBR. Only I didn't take one of the cheat sheets at sign-in prefering to judge yardage myself. It was just "my day". After shooting each target, I found my range estimation better than the printed sheet's range finder yardage used by my friends.

Yes, I own Swarovskis. My first pair, 10x50s, was a gift from my wife for a Wyoming hunt. They took us 2 years to pay off. By the time of the above shoot, 10 power was illegal and I was carrying 8X42 Bruntons I bought on Ebay for $209.

I now have a pair of IBO legal 8X Swaro's I bought used. It's nice to be able to call lines at 40 yards.:wink:


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

You guys got it right. I'll bet it's harder to cheat than it is to just practice and figure out yardage yourself....sometimes people take more energy to get out of work than they do to do it the right way.

loujo61, there really isn't a need to get your panties all bunched up over something this crazy. Using your binoculars isn't cheating, you might be getting a little carried away reading the rules. Don't read into them or anything else for that matter. I try to use the K.I.S.S. method myself.

DB is correct as well, I've been shooting with some of the top pros and they can argue over 1/2yd. Some guys are that good. The way I shoot, if I can judge within 3yds, I'm good!!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> gapping with pins...both methods are ILLEGAL. )
> 
> What is meant by "...gapping with pins..."? I must have missed it if it was discussed earlier.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jonnybow said:


> You guys got it right. I'll bet it's harder to cheat than it is to just practice and figure out yardage yourself....sometimes people take more energy to get out of work than they do to do it the right way.
> 
> loujo61, there really isn't a need to get your panties all bunched up over something this crazy. Using your binoculars isn't cheating, you might be getting a little carried away reading the rules. Don't read into them or anything else for that matter. I try to use the K.I.S.S. method myself.
> 
> DB is correct as well, I've been shooting with some of the top pros and they can argue over 1/2yd. Some guys are that good. The way I shoot, if I can judge within 3yds, I'm good!!


Ok jonnybow I'll try to get a hold of myself. Oh yeah, tell your pro friends that discussing yardage on the coarse is agaist the rules.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

No it's not, you can discuss yardage all you want after the shot. You are just begging for an argument! I love guys like you


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Y'all have brightened my day... I wish I felt better, I'd love to get into this one....:wink:


Proud owner of a pair of Swarovski EL Binoculars.....:tongue:


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## 3DZapper (Dec 30, 2002)

Javi, You rest. We will gladly carry your weight.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

carlosii said:


> Brown Hornet said:
> 
> 
> > gapping with pins...both methods are ILLEGAL. )
> ...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Rich guys do all the cheating*



JAVI said:


> Y'all have brightened my day... I wish I felt better, I'd love to get into this one....:wink:
> 
> 
> Proud owner of a pair of Swarovski EL Binoculars.....:tongue:



Now thats funny I thought you bought them because your old and your eyesights not as good as it once was:tongue:
DB


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jonnybow said:


> carlosii said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to cheat AND you know exact sizes of each target, you could measure your pin gap to see how much of the target is covered up at certain yardages and then you'll know by holding your pins on the animal approximately how far the target is.......I never understood the guys who did this since it takes just as much practice to perfect this than it would to just practice yardage estimation and become good at it.
> ...


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## bowtechExVFT17 (Mar 5, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> jonnybow said:
> 
> 
> > No no jonnybow, you just don't get it, no Ya don't! What I was refering to was just knowing what your pins cover, like I know there is about 4" of drop between my 35 pin and my 40. Say Ya think a deer size target is 35 yards and your aiming with your 35 yard pin on the ten, "common sense" tells you that your 40 yard pin should be somewhere on the deer's brisket or about four inches lower than your 35. If you pull up and aim your 35 yard pin at the ten and your 40 yard pin is low and off the brisket of the deer "common sense" should tell you that the target is farther than you think. You don't have to know the exact size of the target you just have to visualize what four inches should be or look like in proportion to the target.
> ...


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

Another way to estimate yardage is to count the steps of the members of the group in front of you as they approach the target. Now that I know this happens I think it would be a good idea to require that shooters zig-zag to keep people from cheating...No walking in straight lines anymore! :wink:

Cheating sucks. But if the notion of cheaters bothers people so much that they can hardly cope, competitive archery probably isn't the best sport for them. There are too many people that make up for their lack of good shooting skills by developing cheating skills. You'll never stop it, and you can barely even control it.


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## bowtechExVFT17 (Mar 5, 2005)

kcarcherguy said:


> Another way to estimate yardage is to count the steps of the members of the group in front of you as they approach the target. Now that I know this happens I think it would be a good idea to require that shooters zig-zag to keep people from cheating...No walking in straight lines anymore! :wink:
> 
> Cheating sucks. But if the notion of cheaters bothers people so much that they can hardly cope, competitive archery probably isn't the best sport for them. There are too many people that make up for their lack of good shooting skills by developing cheating skills. You'll never stop it, and you can barely even control it.


I don't think zig zagging would work either. I know the pythagorean theorem is a very powerful tool. If you were to square the number of steps they took to their left and add it to the number of steps to their right, take the answer and square root it. Then you multiply it by the number of times they completed the average function and viola, YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY CHEATED. The thing is, people will always try to cheat. If there is a way, their is moron who will do it.


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## george myers (Dec 28, 2005)

the sport has all kinds of cheating just like any other sport.3 years ago i was shooting a world qualifier and one guy in our group had his son shooting a practice round with us.the kid had a target sight with a very clearly marked sight tape.dad would watch where the sight got adjusted to always shooting after the kid shot and he could see where he needed to be.surprise,surprise the father took first place in the qualifier.i don't understand what's to be gained by cheating.the sport is mentally challenging enough without fooling yourself into believing that you're a better shooter than what you actually are.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

bowtechExVFT17 said:


> loujo61 said:
> 
> 
> > That would be knowing the size. Not all 10 rings are 5". Some are 1", some are 10". To recognize four inches you have to have an understanding of the size of the target. Some targets are deceivingly small (the McKenzie bear), who doesn't shoot that stupid target a little hot each time. I hope that now you understand that you still have to have an understanding of the size of the targets, or your eyeballin' guessing where four inches is, isn't gonna get you any closer to guessing the yardage than 5 or 6 yards.
> ...


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

The thing with 3D is to keep from making the BIG yardage mistakes that put you in the 5 or worse. You can shoot an 8 or three but you'll have a bit of ground to make up. Cheating with bino's, gapping or what not takes alot of time and effort to learn. Most figure its not worth the effort and use that time to hone in on their pure judging ability. 
One thing I do with my bino's though is to see if the targets feet are above the ground or not. This helps me not think it is farther away than it is sometimes. I don't think thats cheating, but helps me a little tiny bit. I'm not much of a 3D shooter however.... although I like it.


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## BK Artworks (Nov 7, 2005)

So after reading all of the debockle about this and that and whatever the general consensus is that any archer that knows their equipment well enough that little differences in yardage because a target looks different for some reason is cheating. If they are able to tell that they are off by 5 or more yards because of other pins on their bow that isn't marked or if they know/remember that the target they just shot good on was xx yards and the next is blurry that is cheating because they have to adjust their bino's to get a good look at the target... HUM... then I guess then every archer is cheating because everyone has done it at some time during a shoot. They might not have realized it but somewhere back in the back of our competitive little minds this little voice says... hey that dont look right or whatever takes over the thoughts and the archer adjusts that is cheating... why is it that doing something to help you gain a slight advantage is cheating when in all competitions every player looks for that little edge to best the rest of the field.... 


Now I know about the pin gapping or traditional shooter "walking the string" or what ever but anytime there is a set size on something people will figure out how to use it to judge distances one way or another and a lot of the time it might just be something done in the depths of the brain that isn't realized by the archer. You can argue all you want about every scenerio but there is no actual way to stop it. If you can prove it then so be it but I'll guarentee you that everyone from the beginner to pro level archer does it in some form or another.... maybe the biggest difference is that the pro level shooter don't have to do it as much or they have gotten so good at it that nobody notices the little things like that bionic calibrated eyeball with digital readout that has a laser rangefinding back up to get exact precise measurements..... :brick:


BTW... is also kind of seems that there are those checking this out that are :set1_fishing:


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## afrohunter (Jan 13, 2007)

As stated before....every sport including 3d has its cheaters.....even if you do use a "method" of "cheating"...you still have to make the shot...so for all of you out there that do cheat...how about trying a little practice and competition ethics for a change or shoot in a class that best reflects your skill level instead of disgracing yourself and the ethical fabric of this sport by cheating....this sport is not just about you and your so called "accomplishments"......do i win every shoot.....heck no....but i do know that at every shoot i compete in i give it my best ETHICALLY!!!!......even if i don't qualify or if i x out every target....i know that i didn't cheat myself or anyone else that shot the competition......how would you like it if you actually PRACTICED (not practiced cheating) spent countless dollars in your equipment, countless hours on practice courses rain or shine.....just to fly half way across the nation to get cheated out of your chance to win a major event.......i don't think you would take to kindly to such a thing.......we all spend alot of time and money in this sport....and in alot of cases a lot more than our spouses tend to care for......sometimes you need to stop and think how you would feel if someone STOLE a win from you at a shoot because they REFUSED to develop the proper skills and ethics it takes to compete in this sport......


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> loujo61 said:
> 
> 
> > Your right, I do have an understanding of the size of each target, but I don't spend time perfecting my gapping skills, I just have a rough idea of what 4" looks like on most targets. And, it's not going to get you closer than within 5-6 yards, but it sure keeps me from making big mistakes sometimes.
> ...


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jonnybow said:


> loujo61 said:
> 
> 
> > You'd be so much fun to shoot with, not only could your mouth get yourself in trouble but your general understanding of target size would get you so far behind the power curve, you couldn't come back!!! Now this is fun!!!:wink:
> ...


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

please read my post and don't put your twist on it, never said anything about doing it myself. You're a stand up guy I see, if you'd like to bring everyone else down to your level please refrain from bringing me with you. Thanks


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## kingOfFoam (Feb 22, 2007)

loujo, you must be a lawyer or have always long to be one. I have not seen you come to agreiance with anyone on this hold thread. Not to get you fired back up again, but it almost seems to me like you are taking this personal and firing back at people in an attempt to tried to hide your flaws. The part about your mouth getting you in trouble, the statement you made about knowing where your pins should be and shooting accordingly is exactly the definition of the term "pin gapping" or cheating for that matter. If you continue to do this, it would probably be a good idea not to mention it at a shoot. Continue to do what you do and it will eventually catch up with you in the end. Good Luck and like other people have said I would enjoy shooting with you also. I take pride in knocking people off of their pedastle that do the things you do, and I do it the right way. Regardless of how bad I shoot.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

kingOfFoam said:


> loujo, you must be a lawyer or have always long to be one. I have not seen you come to agreiance with anyone on this hold thread. Not to get you fired back up again, but it almost seems to me like you are taking this personal and firing back at people in an attempt to tried to hide your flaws. The part about your mouth getting you in trouble, the statement you made about knowing where your pins should be and shooting accordingly is exactly the definition of the term "pin gapping" or cheating for that matter. If you continue to do this, it would probably be a good idea not to mention it at a shoot. Continue to do what you do and it will eventually catch up with you in the end. Good Luck and like other people have said I would enjoy shooting with you also. I take pride in knocking people off of their pedastle that do the things you do, and I do it the right way. Regardless of how bad I shoot.


I'm not a lawyer and if I wanted to be one don't you think I'd learn to spell a little better? It's not that I disagree with everyone, I agree totally with what BK Artworks said in his thread, and, I'm not trying to hide anything. If we were at a shoot and I let down and said " man that sight picture just didn't add up ", do Ya think a range official would disqualify me? For a self proclaimed "king of foam" you have a condemning nature... Are you friends with jonnybow?


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## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

Bino hashing is wrong. Sorry, just wrong

This was brought up last year on this forum. I called IBO and this is what they told me. You will be disqualified under the Sportsmenship rule, and using a range finder rule. And that bans you from any IBO shoot for a year. I had a partner that was doing it. He doesn't do it anymore. One thing was he never did it in a IBO competition. I had to call him out on it. Cheating was cheating little shoots or bigs shoots.

If shooting competition gets so straining and depanding that I would think of cheating. I guess thats when I hang the bow up. I have 3 kids that look up to their father as a "MAN". Men don't cheat.

Integrity goes a long way.

It would be nice if Goldtip would come out with a 1" dia arrow. I would get more 11's.:wink: Does ASA restrict the dia of arrows. IBO doesn't state anything.

Regards,

Matt


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## kingOfFoam (Feb 22, 2007)

Like I said I dont care to get into pitty little arguments about stuff, but I agree with you. An official would not disqualify you cause he wouldnt know the reason you let down. I think like someone said before all of us have little tricks that we do to judge distance. I wouldnt say that it was cheating! Like for example looking at a tree and using that as your 20 yd marker. That is gauging regardless of how you put it, but that however is not cheating. I dont agree with using instruments to gauge distance. No matter how much we sit here and gripe, the bottom line is you cant stop all people from doing it completely. So, like I said I will try my best "ethically" and when I beat someone who is trying to cheat, I will take pride and make it a point to let you know about it.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

I have heard there are people who can score better than I do because they have 1) better equipment 2) practice more 3) have more talent 4) all of the above. There is always talk about somebody do something with binos for yardage. Maybe it is true maybe it is not. If it is true I would think that scores would all exceed even. I have heard for years that you can use your pins or scope to judge yardage.I was told you could use your scope housing and where your pin hits(on the 10 at 30, on mid section joint at 40) to judge the yardage. Considering all the targets that Mckenzie makes you would have to carry a dang laptop with you to remember all the targets and all the yardage increments. Biggest fact is.........there is always some low life who will cheat. Most times they beat you with their pencil. It is up to us to police ourselves and do what we can to remove this type of people from out sport.


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## The Yankee (Nov 23, 2005)

This is getting entertaining I must say.  Yes you can cheat with binos in several ways. I still think the best shooters are going to win anyway. There are a few guys I shoot with that if I had a rangefinder and shot against them they would still whip my butt. The only way I would beat them is with my pencil (which I don't do but most cheaters try to do), the problem is that then they would beat me anyway!! :boxing: :faint: :dead: :heh: Enough said by me.


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## massarcher (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't understand why your not allowed to use rangefinders, if 3-d shoots are supposed to simulate hunting then why can't we use them. They should at least have a rangefinder class. I don't see the point in practicing yard estimation when everyone uses lasers when they hunt.


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

*Binos*

Well I shoot with a couple pair of those expensive cheater binos and I would love someone to show me how one is good enough to guess the yardage on a ASA 12 ring and a 37 yard turkey!


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## Nupper (Dec 31, 2003)

I am almost ashamed to get into this but I couldnt resist. I go to a lot of the larger venues and know a lot of top end shooters and I think I can speak for most of them when I say. We are out there trying to shoot aginst our selves. I could give a rats *** what the next guys doing. I think our sport has a lot more integrity then you are giving it credit for. I feel if someone is going to cheat be happy with your plaque and be glad with who you see the next day in the mirror. For the most of you good luck with your shooting in 2008 I'll see ya there!!!!!


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> So now because someone can afford better binos then you they are cheating.:embara:


It's possible. Cheating technique is made easier with better optics... 

Especially because $1500 binos are NOT the norm. Sounds like you feel a little threatened Brown hornet.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

massarcher said:


> I don't understand why your not allowed to use rangefinders, if 3-d shoots are supposed to simulate hunting then why can't we use them. They should at least have a rangefinder class. I don't see the point in practicing yard estimation when everyone uses lasers when they hunt.


They do. Shoot an NFAA 3.d, marked.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

bowtechExVFT17 said:


> I don't think zig zagging would work either. I know the pythagorean theorem is a very powerful tool. If you were to square the number of steps they took to their left and add it to the number of steps to their right, take the answer and square root it. Then you multiply it by the number of times they completed the average function and viola, YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY CHEATED. The thing is, people will always try to cheat. If there is a way, their is moron who will do it.


only works for exact right triangles.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

carlosii said:


> Besides, high priced binos help make you look cool, dude. :rock-on: Goes with graphite covered limbs, candy colored riser, shades, and a logo shirt!
> Its more important to look good than to shoot good, and they look marvelous. :hail::hail::clap2:


Amen.

:thumbs_do


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Nupper said:


> I am almost ashamed to get into this but I couldnt resist. I go to a lot of the larger venues and know a lot of top end shooters and I think I can speak for most of them when I say. We are out there trying to shoot aginst our selves. I could give a rats *** what the next guys doing. I think our sport has a lot more integrity then you are giving it credit for. I feel if someone is going to cheat be happy with your plaque and be glad with who you see the next day in the mirror. For the most of you good luck with your shooting in 2008 I'll see ya there!!!!!


I think people care about what the next guy is doing, people buy the equipment that they see the pros winning with and shooting the most game on TV. It should be all about the integrity of our sport but instead it's all about the sponsors. The "larger venues" could cure the problem but they choose to ignore it.


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## BEAR FOOT (Nov 30, 2007)

*wow*

i dont think any of us in here are good enough to argue over this including myself see youin March


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## SVA (Dec 7, 2007)

I agree with Hoyteaston guy further up the page, if people would do this for what it is supposed to be for, ( fun and a day away from work ), who would worry about the "cheaters". This is an awsome sport, so don't ruin it for yourselves and just have fun! Cheaters cheat to impress themselves, but when the day comes for a shoot off, they will tell on themselves. Have fun, that's all that matters!!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Who cares about yardage estimating? 

Shoot a Bowtech. 

They took the arch out of archery. :wink:

1 pin out to 60. lain:


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## BEAR FOOT (Nov 30, 2007)

*haha*



ultraeliteshoot said:


> i dont think any of us in here are good enough to argue over this including myself see youin March.


ha


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

Nupper said:


> I am almost ashamed to get into this but I couldnt resist. I go to a lot of the larger venues and know a lot of top end shooters and I think I can speak for most of them when I say. We are out there trying to shoot aginst our selves. I could give a rats *** what the next guys doing. I think our sport has a lot more integrity then you are giving it credit for. I feel if someone is going to cheat be happy with your plaque and be glad with who you see the next day in the mirror. For the most of you good luck with your shooting in 2008 I'll see ya there!!!!!


I agree, in my opinion this say's it all. To much thinking involved in pin gapping and ranging with bino's. I guess I am just to poor and to stupid to cheat.:wink:


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