# I found my Captain problem



## TAP (May 28, 2002)

ttt


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

IMHO it is due to the roller guard. My allegiances are way easier to tune than my 82nd and captian. They also shoot better for me. I wish bowtech would go back to cable rod and slide. I think the roller puts more tension on the cables at full draw and causes more torque vs the cableslide at fulldraw the cables slides back causing less torque. Just my opinion.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

I'll tell ya what worked for me: 

A torqueless grip from torqueless.com. For some reason, the grips on bowtechs settle differently in some peoples hands. I put the new grip on and fit settles in my hand great. Bareshafts are straight now.

Also try lengthening the ATA length via the cables to relieve stress off the roller guards. Do a before and after bareshaft and compare the results. Bowtech emailed me and said +/- 3/16" on ATA so you have plenty of room to find the sweet spot.


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## wis_archer (Jul 27, 2007)

HammyAbeer said:


> I'll tell ya what worked for me:
> 
> A torqueless grip from torqueless.com. For some reason, the grips on bowtechs settle differently in some peoples hands. I put the new grip on and fit settles in my hand great. Bareshafts are straight now.
> 
> Also try lengthening the ATA length via the cables to relieve stress off the roller guards. Do a before and after bareshaft and compare the results. *Bowtech emailed me and said +/- 3/16" on ATA so you have plenty of room to find the sweet spot*.


You mean Bowtech doesn't _know_!?!ukey:


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## trob_205 (Aug 18, 2008)

geekster said:


> IMHO it is due to the roller guard. My allegiances are way easier to tune than my 82nd and captian. They also shoot better for me. I wish bowtech would go back to cable rod and slide. I think the roller puts more tension on the cables at full draw and causes more torque vs the cableslide at fulldraw the cables slides back causing less torque. Just my opinion.


bingo bango...i think thats why i walked out with an 08 centerpivot instead of a 09 model


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

This is a wierd one for me. I just haven't had any problems like what your describing. I set mine up from barebow, and just eyeballed centershot to start off with. In 10 shots I got perfect bareshaft papertuned. Then walkback. set 5 pins up out to 60 yrds, then bh tuned. I would up with 3/4" off the riser, and a hair high on the berger hole. Nock level. 
I'm not sure if you got one that is defective in some way or what. 
This is my first bow to have a roller guard, and it tuned easier than anything I've ever owned.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

i've got an 09' sentinal that does the same thing. i know what it is. take a look standing behind the bow while it is in a bow vise. you will see considerable cam lean at rest pulling the string twards the riser . the problem isn't so much the roller guard, but lies in the limbs. i'm going to convert mine to a shoot thru system. doing this will take all lateral stress out of the limbs and the bow will have nice ,straight cams thru the entire draw cycle.i've done this to several 07's and 08's and it really cleans up the centershot and forgiveness of the bows. they paper tune like a dream after it is done.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

My bow doesn't have any cam lean at rest and only a slight lean left in the bottom cam as you look down at full draw.

Thanks so far for the advise. Nothing concrete to go on. I find it hard to believe to anyone can get this bow to bareshaft....?

The grip I thought of, but it really isn't a ME torqueing the bow issue. The bow is torqeing itself! A roller grip would only verify what I am witnessing even more.

Shoot through? How you going to do that? When I shot Martins thats all I ever had so I KNOW how nice that is.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

If you have a bow press or bowmaster try lengthening the ATA via the cables. Remember your twists. If it doesnt work then go back to square one. Cant hurt.

I wasnt talking about the roller grip, just a shrewd type grip. It will help.


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## frankchugga (Feb 26, 2005)

You may have a deflection mismatch in the limbs. Split limb bows have this problem occassionally. You may be able to check this out by the following: just reverse the limbs.....right limb to the left side and vice versa. Do this on top and bottom limbs. If there is a deflection imbalance, the tear should reverse. BTW....your sight tape program rules..........


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

frankchugga said:


> You may have a deflection mismatch in the limbs. Split limb bows have this problem occassionally. You may be able to check this out by the following: just reverse the limbs.....right limb to the left side and vice versa. Do this on top and bottom limbs. If there is a deflection imbalance, the tear should reverse. BTW....your sight tape program rules..........


I aint taking this F***ing thing apart! I would HOPE they watch this during the assembly procedure. With the vast amount of people experiencing the same issue with the Captain and Sentinal I am thinking that it is something else.

Thanks for the testimonial on TAP! If I could only make the program shoot the bow now!  LOL!


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## frankchugga (Feb 26, 2005)

TAP said:


> I aint taking this F***ing thing apart! I would HOPE they watch this during the assembly procedure. With the vast amount of people experiencing the same issue with the Captain and Sentinal I am thinking that it is something else.
> 
> Thanks for the testimonial on TAP! If I could only make the program shoot the bow now!  LOL!


I didn't realize there is the same problem with the capt and sentinel. I was thinking about trying a sentinel......not so sure now if what you say is correct. What I described in my earlier post would have nothing to do with the assembly of the bow, but rather a lamination/layup problem with the limbs when they were manufactured.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

If there was a mismatched limb on Tony's bow would there not be significant cam lean? What I saw last night the cam lean was very minimal and only on the bottom. The riser appears to be straight and it would take alot to bend it with all the material within it. He shot my Hoyt with a bare shaft and fletched arrow with very good results so it is not anything Tony is doing.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

TAP said:


> My bow doesn't have any cam lean at rest and only a slight lean left in the bottom cam as you look down at full draw.
> 
> Thanks so far for the advise. Nothing concrete to go on. I find it hard to believe to anyone can get this bow to bareshaft....?
> 
> ...


I'm with You on the Roller Guard. I went through the same thing with an Admiral. I bareshaft tune everything and It ended up WELL inside of center, so much that the riser blocked about 1/3 of My 1 3/4 Viper sight. I tried everything, swapping limbs, axle spacers, every rest and arrow combo known to man. I really liked the bow and had great arrow flight, but ended up selling it, just couldn't get it out of My head.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Hey Tony send me a PM and I will share with you my thoughts. Don't beat your head too hard against the wall.

It's not he roller guard. At least not all of it.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

frankchugga said:


> I didn't realize there is the same problem with the capt and sentinel. I was thinking about trying a sentinel......not so sure now if what you say is correct. What I described in my earlier post would have nothing to do with the assembly of the bow, but rather a lamination/layup problem with the limbs when they were manufactured.


There is more than one common denominator between the Admiral, Captain and Sentinel. The longer the AtoA the more pronounced the issue.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

will BT acknowledge this problem i wonder?

got me thinking of going all hoyt from now on, or picking up a 08 Commander


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

bunch of 08 commanders on eBay right now.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

KurtVL said:


> will BT acknowledge this problem i wonder?
> 
> got me thinking of going all hoyt from now on, or picking up a 08 Commander


:zip:

as for the 08 Commander......it's cheaper than a Vantage Pro.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

USNarcher said:


> :zip:
> 
> as for the 08 Commander......it's cheaper than a Vantage Pro.


but all the pros are shooting hoyts so i am too 

if i wouldnt have just picked up a used VE i would buy one of the 08 Commies.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

my sentinel does the same..where can i get a shoot through


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

KurtVL said:


> but all the pros are shooting hoyts so i am too
> 
> if i wouldnt have just picked up a used VE i would buy one of the 08 Commies.


Well if all the PRO's are then you can't go wrong. :darkbeer:

If I wasn't shooting Bowtech I would probably be shooting a Hoyt.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

USN,

has anyone outside of BT put together a "shoot thru" system for the 09's

do you think this would help make this "tuning" issue go away?


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Kurt I sent you a pm.


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## EZ4U (Dec 28, 2005)

The bow wants a weak spine arrow. My Admiral at 60# shoots a 27" 500 spine arrow with 175 grain point! Bareshafts fine. You might be trying to shoot to stiff of an arrwow as a lot of people are doing. Don't believe me........try it.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Man this does not look good for Bowtech. They sure have had their share of growing pains. I hope they can get things together soon.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

EZ4U said:


> The bow wants a weak spine arrow. My Admiral at 60# shoots a 27" 500 spine arrow with 175 grain point! Bareshafts fine. You might be trying to shoot to stiff of an arrwow as a lot of people are doing. Don't believe me........try it.


I have a REAL problem with a statement like this one. In order to achieve speed a bow HAS to deliver X amount of energy to the arrow. Putting a 175 grain tip in a 500 is ludacris and might indeed solve your tuning issue, but believe me from experience that you are playing with fire. The problem lies in how the riser torques to the right when at draw.



> Man this does not look good for Bowtech. They sure have had their share of growing pains. I hope they can get things together soon.


This isn't a bashing thread so let's not take it there. I have struggled with MANY other bows through the years. Somewhere there is a solution or a formula to get this right, but so far all of the things I have tried have resulted in little or no difference.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

TAP said:


> I have a REAL problem with a statement like this one. In order to achieve speed a bow HAS to deliver X amount of energy to the arrow. Putting a 175 grain tip in a 500 is ludacris and might indeed solve your tuning issue, but believe me from experience that you are playing with fire. The problem lies in how the riser torques to the right when at draw.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't a bashing thread so let's not take it there. I have struggled with MANY other bows through the years. Somewhere there is a solution or a formula to get this right, but so far all of the things I have tried have resulted in little or no difference.


I wouldn't recomend that heavy of a point but they do like a little lighter
spine than you might think.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Banjo Man said:


> Man this does not look good for Bowtech. They sure have had their share of growing pains. I hope they can get things together soon.


Bowtech makes some of the best bows in the industry. Sometimes certain ideas don't work out the way they are designed. Just like anything, you can't find everything in a controlled testing enviroment. It isn't until you put it out there that you find some things that you didn't expect. :shade:


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

first i hear a stiff spline now you guys are talking weak. mine groups better stiff..its all a matter of finding the right hand pos. open hand does not work. hold it just a little bit and watch your groups shrink...


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

lost american said:


> first i hear a stiff spline now you guys are talking weak. mine groups better stiff..its all a matter of finding the right hand pos. open hand does not work. hold it just a little bit and watch your groups shrink...


I can SMACK arrows together well past 40 yards. That isn't a problem with an open hand. The problem for me is how magnified even a slight anomoly in my form is at the bale end of the shot.

My Allegiance's I can practically drop my bow arm, peak and punch the release all in the same shot and the arrow hits the bull! With this bow If there ANYTHING even slightly different in your shot sequence you WILL pay for it on the paper or foam.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Easy everyone! I am not bashing. I shoot Bowtech and own 2 of them. I love my Ally and my 101st. I am just making a statement. Because of the way this forum goes sometimes everyone is so darn quick to jump to conclusions. Eaaassssssy. I am on your side.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Maybe big brother is watching. They won't listen to the staff shooters but they may listen to the masses. 

"Someone" posted their first post ever about what a great business man Mark Pezzoni is. Maybe he can use a tool (like AT) other than staff shooters to make a great bow even better. :noidea: I have received over 100 pm's in the past week from those asking for help tuning. I am out of ideas. :confused3::sorry:

For those that have them driving nails. :clap::wav:


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Banjo Man said:


> Easy everyone! I am not bashing. I shoot Bowtech and own 2 of them. I love my Ally and my 101st. I am just making a statement. Because of the way this forum goes sometimes everyone is so darn quick to jump to conclusions. Eaaassssssy. I am on your side.


Thats good because arguing and bashing accomplished nothing and only reverses any progress made in the positive direction.

I think USNarcher and I are onto something. Seems that the Admiral shoots best then the Captain and the Sentinal is the worst according to the general concesus. Lets assume this is fact. Anyone see any correlation to what the problem could be?


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

I'm not rocket scientist but I'm going to go with A2A length


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

TAP, thanks for the lesson on how I should post from now on.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

lrbergin said:


> I'm not rocket scientist but I'm going to go with A2A length


Bingo! So now we have two things to ponder. Is the riser flexing? I have to say I have a hard time believing that one. The longer axle will also mean whatever IS moving is getting worse with length.

Let's assume the riser is NOT flexing, what could it be? If the riser IS flexing then there is nothing we can do. We can shoot them for what they are, and work on our form I guess.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

TAP said:


> Bingo! So now we have two things to ponder. Is the riser flexing? I have to say I have a hard time believing that one. The longer axle will also mean whatever IS moving is getting worse with length.
> 
> Let's assume the riser is NOT flexing, what could it be? If the riser IS flexing then there is nothing we can do. We can shoot them for what they are, and work on our form I guess.


I hate to hear that! They really should have never stopped making the '08 Commander..But I can't understand there being such a problem...Hopefully someone will chime in w/an answer.


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## Dextreme (Jul 7, 2005)

TAP said:


> I can SMACK arrows together well past 40 yards. That isn't a problem with an open hand. The problem for me is how magnified even a slight anomoly in my form is at the bale end of the shot.
> 
> My Allegiance's I can practically drop my bow arm, peak and punch the release all in the same shot and the arrow hits the bull! With this bow If there ANYTHING even slightly different in your shot sequence you WILL pay for it on the paper or foam.


Just some thoughts....what about the timing of the "rest" (assuming you are using a drop away)? Have you messed with having it fall sooner or later to see how is changes the flight? Have you tried a different rest to see if the same thing is occuring?

I am just thinking that the rest timing might magnify those slight anomolys.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Dextreme said:


> Just some thoughts....what about the timing of the "rest" (assuming you are using a drop away)? Have you messed with having it fall sooner or later to see how is changes the flight? Have you tried a different rest to see if the same thing is occuring?
> 
> I am just thinking that the rest timing might magnify those slight anomolys.


I have been through all the exercises. Tried NUMEROUS rests, when it drops....Lizard tongue.....it doesnt matter. 

What is causing the riser to get dragged to the right when at draw.....this is the problem....


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

treid the rest thing i switched from a limbdriver over to a nap 3000 and made no differance. has anyone tried a v-bar with some heavy weight? i was thinking some weight in the middle of bow would do some good. i just love the draw and dead feeling after the shot to much on this bow to give up.the problem is at full draw it just tips right and left to easy.


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

I'm at a loss but am very curious. I've got a Captain on the way in the mail and hope I'm not in for a hair puller. Patiently awaiting the words of a wiser man who can shed some light.


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## wild thang (Feb 13, 2008)

My 66 Lb Air Raid and 62 Lb Captain both have a left tear (and noticeable arrow whip ) after walk back tuning for center shot with 400 spine arrow . This arrow flight improves with 340 spine arrow, both bows are set for 29" draw and both run 1/2" - 3/4" long. Also improved after I raised the rest height on the Captain.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I saw exactly what TAP is describing with Mine. At rest with an arrow running roughly parallel with the lines in the trough l l l When You look down at the arrow at full draw it looks like this / l / (and it has nothing to do with hand torque) Even if You intentionally torque it, You can't hardly keep it straight. 

One other thing I notice with these bows is how far behind the pivot point of the grip the arrow rest has to be, due to the length of the trough, compared to say a Hoyt or Mathews. That may compound the problem?

I believe the back of the riser/rest actually moves left to right at the shot. I had a Hostage laying around I put on Mine when i first got it, and no matter how far left or right I had the rest, I would still get pretty severe contact with the top left brush. If the rest was closer to the pivot point, this movement wouldn't be as much of a factor.

And I agree that while it may work, an extremely weak spine is just a band-aid to the problem. Not saying it's wrong, just not saying it's right either.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

ttt


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

AS i stated before i believe the roller guard is what causing the riser to go right at fulldraw. The rollerguard is stationary during the draw causes more tension on the cables and causes riser to twist to the right. The only arrow i could get tune is 35/55. My centershot is 13/16. The bow shoots pretty good But will not shoot as good as my allegiances. The roller causes the bowtech to tune to the inside. I always put the laser on my bow after i tune them. The arrow is always inside of the laser. On the bowtechs with cableslide after tuned the laser rides center arrow all the way to the tip. These are my findings not trying to upset anyone who has bowtech with the cable roller.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

geekster said:


> AS i stated before i believe the roller guard is what causing the riser to go right at fulldraw. The rollerguard is stationary during the draw causes more tension on the cables and causes riser to twist to the right. The only arrow i could get tune is 35/55. My centershot is 13/16. The bow shoots pretty good But will not shoot as good as my allegiances. The roller causes the bowtech to tune to the inside. I always put the laser on my bow after i tune them. The arrow is always inside of the laser. On the bowtechs with cableslide after tuned the laser rides center arrow all the way to the tip. These are my findings not trying to upset anyone who has bowtech with the cable roller.


Perhaps you are correct, BUT why would the Admiral have less tuning issues and the Sentinal more problems? Logic would indicate as you spread the axles apart the force exerted on the cable roller would be less thus having less pull to that side? 

I just got back from the outdoor range. The bow shoots really good, but you MUST stay on top of your game..... a slight lapse in execution pays the price at the target. I have Allegiances also and they are much more forgiving than this series of bows. I am thinking the Allegiance is going to be Bowtechs MQ1


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## wis_archer (Jul 27, 2007)

Are the cams any different between the Sentinal and Admiral?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

wis_archer said:


> Are the cams any different between the Sentinal and Admiral?


Far as I know they are all three identical except for the riser. Admiral is 31.25 ATA, Captain is 34 and the Sentinal is 36.75


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

maybe Crackers can help.....very interesting,,,,


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

Tap i'm clueless why on the longer ata it is worse. I would love to take the roller off and put a cable rod and slide on the captian and 82nd and see if it would change the centershot. Somebody on here a few months ago was talking about doing this. They was talking about machining a peice that would go were the roller is and fitting it with a cable rod. never heard anything else about it.


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

deerheaven said:


> maybe Crackers can help.....very interesting,,,,


ttt


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## Dman23 (Jul 2, 2005)

All quite strange. These are all the first bowtechs i have actually liked too. Im not sold on the roller guard thing though. These are on lots of bows and it hasnt been a issue. I know on both my Apex and my Iron mace they both pull the cables to the side more then the bowtechs as well. Has anyone seen if the black ice has a similar issue? I know its more similar to the Admiral but who knows. Hope someone can answer it!


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## rogbu38 (Jun 16, 2007)

Cam lean. This is why I got rid of the bowtech I had. Binary cams lean regardless of what some may say.


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

rogbu38 said:


> Cam lean. This is why I got rid of the bowtech I had. Binary cams lean regardless of what some may say.


Cam lean (or limb twist) does not cause these kinds of problems unless it is extremely severe.

I had an 05 Allegiance that had cams that looked WAY off at full draw, but it was one of the best shooting bows I've ever had. My buddy still has it and it still leans, but will flat out shoot. It'll also shoot a bullet hole in paper every time.

If you had read the whole thread, Tony also stated he has very minimal cam lean... That's not what he's dealing with.


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## abowpro (Apr 24, 2003)

I have to agree with thinking the roller guard is most of the problem. I never had nowtechs tune to the inside until they began using rollerguards. Strap on a Muzzy cable guard that mounts under your sight and see what you get. I helped on my 82nd. I have found the Captain to tune closer to center than the other 09 CP bows and I attributed this to the noticeably stiffer riser.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

deerheaven said:


> maybe Crackers can help.....very interesting,,,,


I would really like to hear Mikes view on this. You can't pm him so maybe someone can call him to have hime give his .02



geekster said:


> AS i stated before i believe the roller guard is what causing the riser to go right at fulldraw. The rollerguard is stationary during the draw causes more tension on the cables and causes riser to twist to the right. The only arrow i could get tune is 35/55. My centershot is 13/16. The bow shoots pretty good But will not shoot as good as my allegiances. The roller causes the bowtech to tune to the inside. I always put the laser on my bow after i tune them. The arrow is always inside of the laser. On the bowtechs with cableslide after tuned the laser rides center arrow all the way to the tip. These are my findings not trying to upset anyone who has bowtech with the cable roller.


The only reason that I don't dwell on the roller guard, even though I am not a fan of them, is that the Sentinel did the same thing with the split cable roller shoot through system.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

Guardians do not not have this issue, at least that I can find, nor the Black Ice, but the General and Marquis do...The common denominator is the roller guards.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Maybe it IS the roller guard. Yesterday I fabricated a shim to put under the back screw. It shimmed the roller guard towards the arrow shelf and only helped a LITTLE TINY bit. 

It also doesn't explain how the longer the axle length the worse it gets. Logic would indicate as you take stress off the cable roller it would get better.

SOMEBODY knows what the root cause of this whip is.....waiting for that person to chime in. Maybe its a combination of things? 

This reminds me somewhat of an UltraTech with Command+ cams I had. I had a bunch of cam lean....blah blah blah. It took some real time to get tuned but when I got it.....WOW that was the most forgiving bow I ever had. I GAVE it to my brother how stupid was THAT!? 

Anyhow, I hope we can get to the bottom of this because I really like this bow design and how it holds and shoots, EXCEPT for the lack of forgiveness.


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

yesterday i shot a sentinel, general, commander and an 82nd and they all have the arrow pointing to the left across the shelf at full draw just like my captain. the commander was the least noticeable ,but it still did it a little. my captain still shoots good even with the arrow crossing the shelf like it does. i tried several grips and a shrewd seems to be the best of the ones i tried. with the factory sideplates i had to really be careful with my hand placement.even though the arrow looks funny pointing to the left it stills shoots great, i just cant look down at it at full draw or it messes with my head. has anybody tried taking off the roller guard and see if it fixes the problem?


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

I believe Matt (Usnarcher) said he tried the shoot though system and it did the same thing.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

This has been a good read , i am now wondering what is "wrong" with mine!lol!

did i get the one good captain? 
i have very minimal lower cam lean , and it drives tack all day. in fact , my commander is the same way . i just dont get how i got good ones.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

ok for a recap:

cams have little to no lean
shoot through roller guard didnt help
hand placement is CRUCIAL, though its not a torque issue
weak spines

i wonder if the riser is stiff enough?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

I never wrote why I am so focused to get this fixed. Like I have stated I can shoot the bow pretty good, but I know from experience that it CAN be more forgiving.

With that said, I was going to make this into my hunting bow, but without the ability to bare shaft tune this bow all attempts will be futile.

In just two days I will also have a Sentinal to try and tune so I am hoping this gets resolved.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

IMO lasers are worthless for any bow that has ANY cam lean. And ALL bows have cam lean to some degree except shoot through type systems and some true 2 cams. All bows that have the cables pulled to the side are subject to plain old physics. Even solo cams have cam lean....maybe not idler wheel....but the cams will lean when cables are pulled to the side.

When the cams lean, or the limb tips twist (for anal people), the string is shifted at full draw compared to where it sits at rest. As the bow is fired the string is moving (or trying to move) laterally back to the same position it was in before the bow was drawn. A laser shows you where to set your centershot while the bow is at rest. A laser has no idea what your cams do when drawn. The worse the cam lean, the more the laser will be off for your centershot. So lasers are just about worthles to me for setting center shot.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

I want to experiment with my cable slide later, I'll put some pressure on it towards the riser and see what happens.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

Tap , is there any way you can post some full draw pics? 
I'm going to do some looking on mine and try to find something to help. 
Have you pulled the cams to inspect inside and out ? Axles?
I have never looked close, but is there plastic bushings on the axles?


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

HammyAbeer said:


> I want to experiment with my cable slide later, I'll put some pressure on it towards the riser and see what happens.


Dont know what you shoot, but for fun...draw back...look at cam relation to string at full draw to get an idea of cam lean. Take you cables completely off the cable guard, then draw and compare. If it is a solo cam have somebody draw it for you and stand behind them to look at the cam.

Im thinking of converting my guardian to shoot through system just to see how perfect nock travel affects my groups.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

My bet is on mismatched limbs. My son's Hoyt Rintec had this problem so badly the cam rubbed the limbs as it was drawn.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

tmo said:


> Tap , is there any way you can post some full draw pics?
> I'm going to do some looking on mine and try to find something to help.
> Have you pulled the cams to inspect inside and out ? Axles?
> I have never looked close, but is there plastic bushings on the axles?


I can use my helmet mounted camera I guess!  I'll see if Someone at the Pro-Shop can snap some. There is ZERO lean on top and only SLIGHT lean on the bottom. Busings? Never looked.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

skynight said:


> My bet is on mismatched limbs. My son's Hoyt Rintec had this problem so badly the cam rubbed the limbs as it was drawn.


Read the whole thread.....this isn't the issue.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

For what its worth, I don't know what the benefit would be to going to a retrofitted slide. 
I'm just shooting in the dark, so don't get me wrong, its worth checking out. 
But the cables have to get pulled to the same relative location either way. If you come off of that you quickly getting into clearance issues. 
For that matter, the rollers aren't permanently fixed to their shaft. Maybe play with longer roller shaft with bushing to ease them closer to the center,or away from the arm they are mounted on. That may lessen the pull they have. I bet 1/8" roller movement would be a decent amount of change in sideways force to the system. 
Just a thought. 
Would the rollers at a higher or lower location help?that would be a new machined arm with a dog leg, or an offset , that dosent interfere with mounting a rest.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

tmo said:


> For what its worth, I don't know what the benefit would be to going to a retrofitted slide.
> I'm just shooting in the dark, so don't get me wrong, its worth checking out.
> But the cables have to get pulled to the same relative location either way. If you come off of that you quickly getting into clearance issues.
> For that matter, the rollers aren't permanently fixed to their shaft. Maybe play with longer roller shaft with bushing to ease them closer to the center,or away from the arm they are mounted on. That may lessen the pull they have. I bet 1/8" roller movement would be a decent amount of change in sideways force to the system.
> ...


Read up! LOL! Been done already and about 1/16th inch is all you can get from what I was able to do.

On a side note.......I don't think that we can retrofit a slide.....I am pretty sure that the roller guard is a major contributing factor to the bows draw weight and length? From a design standpoint I am betting on the fact that the cables MUST remain in their relative position for this bow design to even work.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

Well, I did read up. Just thinking out loud. Sorry 
I'm done. Good luck Tap


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Not that what you are going through is funny Tony but it is everything that I have done for the past 4 months. I have tried every angle there is. And just like you I give this bow a 3 out of 4. 1- Feels great, 2- draws great, 3- hold awsome, 4- inconsistant at the target. My issue is if you go to a tournament and lose the focus on how to shoot the bow you drop a lot of points. You shouldn't have to concentrate more on your form than the target. It should be natural and this bow won't let you do it.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I still think part of the problem is the length of the trough, and the fact that the rest sits so far behind the pivot point of the grip. It's basically a built in overdraw that You can't take off. I thought about making a long launcher blade that would put the arrow/rest directly over the pivot, to see if it got closer to center. (I bet it would)

Compare it to a Hoyt or Mathews for example, the rest has to sit at least an inch further back on the BT due to the trough design.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

ABTABB said:


> I still think part of the problem is the length of the trough, and the fact that the rest sits so far behind the pivot point of the grip. It's basically a built in overdraw that You can't take off. I thought about making a long launcher blade that would put the arrow/rest directly over the pivot, to see if it got closer to center. (I bet it would)
> 
> Compare it to a Hoyt or Mathews for example, the rest has to sit at least an inch further back on the BT due to the trough design.


Mine is directly above the crock of my hand where it is supposed to be. Identical to my Commander, Guardian and Allegiance and they don't have this problem.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Not that what you are going through is funny Tony but it is everything that I have done for the past 4 months. I have tried every angle there is. And just like you I give this bow a 3 out of 4. 1- Feels great, 2- draws great, 3- hold awsome, 4- inconsistant at the target. My issue is if you go to a tournament and lose the focus on how to shoot the bow you drop a lot of points. You shouldn't have to concentrate more on your form than the target. It should be natural and this bow won't let you do it.


TMO....Didnt mean to offend. When posts get this long it is easy to miss things.

USNarcher......EXTREMELY well said. 3/4 for me too with the same exact result. GOD I wish there was a solution....


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

USNarcher said:


> Mine is directly above the crock of my hand where it is supposed to be. Identical to my Commander, Guardian and Allegiance and they don't have this problem.


There's no doubt the Torque at full draw is the problem, I just meant the riser Torque on these new CP roller bows probably magnifies the effect. Just think about it, and think about the effect the rest being so far behind the PP will have when the riser is rotated (and remember there is more "rotation" on these new CP's than the bows You mentioned) I never tried it so I can't say it will definitely work, but I have noticed other bows that were set up at a local shop with a LD or Lizard tongue (which set farther forward than My QAD or G5) did indeed tune a little closer to center than mine.


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## FREON22 (May 24, 2008)

Dear Bowtech,

3 special requests from a sincere fan:

1) Please bring back both the Allegiance & the Tribute 

2) Go back to modules as they are smoother than the rotating do it all mods. 

3) go back to LARGE timing marks in refrence to LIMBS not strings.

:frusty:


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

TAP said:


> Read the whole thread.....this isn't the issue.


I did read it. All I saw is that you are not willing to take the bow apart.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

I called Bowtech about this issue a while back. They said move the rest as far forward as you can and also to try switching the limbs. 

Neither worked unfortunately.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

i just got done shooting my sentinel. i am back on track, tight groups again.its all in the hand grip!....but it is a jumpy bow if your form is not identical every shot. as i stated before it is not a bow to shoot open handed. you have to hold it a little..


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

My Crackerized Admiral did the same thing. I sent it back to him and it came back with the same horrible left tear. I spent a solid week working on it, and its definitily the bow. Yes, you can fool it by how you grip it, I did it many times, but it is not a natural feeling grip. (thats why a few people get theirs to supposidily tune) I called bowtech, and they know about it, but will not do anything until next year when they do a design change and raise the msrp. I think its bs, and am very upset with bowtech and cracker. I have been a customer of both for many years. I sold the bow and took a $200 loss. Cracker blamed it on my grip. (he is partially correct, but its still not right) I loved the way the c.p. design holds on the target for me, but to get a good tune, the arrow rest needs to be so far to the right, that my sight is 1/2 covered up.

Thumbs down on the admiral and carters this time.

I still have yet to see anyone shoot a 09 crackerized admiral thru paper yet and post results. (other then me)


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## huntindoc (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks for depressing me guys. I just got a call that the Sentinel in hardwoods gray that I ordered about 6 weeks ago is in. I ordered before I heard about this and I won't back out (wouldn't be right to). I had planned to make this my hunting bow but if it's that picky about grip it won't be worth a flip as a hunting bow.

One question. How can it be the roller guard if a shoot thru system didn't change anything? Doesn't it have to be something with the cams that makes the string move laterally during the draw cycle?

hd


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

also...i am not dissing cracker completely, i just think he should of been able to see the issue on this bow..., i also think 90 percent of his customers don't know much about tuning and don't really check their bows after they get them back from him, like i do......i have had other bows tuned by him and i could shoot an arrow thru paper from 2' at a 45 degree angle and it gave a bullet hole.

One funny/weird observation however, when I told the tech guy at bowtech it was set up by cracker, he laughed in the phone at me????????

not sure what that was about.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

Guys, try a torqueless grip. I got mine from torqueless.com. I also got a medium wrist which I believe helps even more with the torque.


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

huntindoc said:


> Thanks for depressing me guys. I just got a call that the Sentinel in hardwoods gray that I ordered about 6 weeks ago is in. I ordered before I heard about this and I won't back out (wouldn't be right to). I had planned to make this my hunting bow but if it's that picky about grip it won't be worth a flip as a hunting bow.
> 
> One question. How can it be the roller guard if a shoot thru system didn't change anything? Doesn't it have to be something with the cams that makes the string move laterally during the draw cycle?
> 
> hd


Don't get yourself worked up in a tizzy b/c of this thread. Get your bow, and try to tune it with an open mind. If you go in doubting it, you'll probably shoot it like crap anyway and be looking for an excuse. 

I just got a Captain and have just started tuning it. I don't bother paper tuning anymore, I simply broadhead tune (match BH POI to field point POI). When I do that, the arrows are normally flying like lazer beams and all is good. I'll also fine tune it with a walkback tune.

-ZA


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## Mossybuck (Jun 13, 2008)

My Captain shoots and tunes like a dream. I have shot several different arrows all around a 400 spine and they all shoot bullet holes.(28inch @ 63#) As far as TAPs problem I cant help, but my center shot is perfect (eyeballing it) and it is nocked a touch above the berger holes. There is no angle in my arrow as it crosses the shelf what so ever at full draw. I will say that bowtechs are a little more grip specific than matthews and hoyt. It will be interesting to find out what the solution will be. Keep us posted.


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## Dextreme (Jul 7, 2005)

ZA206 said:


> Don't get yourself worked up in a tizzy b/c of this thread. Get your bow, and try to tune it with an open mind. If you go in doubting it, you'll probably shoot it like crap anyway and be looking for an excuse.
> 
> I just got a Captain and have just started tuning it. I don't bother paper tuning anymore, I simply broadhead tune (match BH POI to field point POI). When I do that, the arrows are normally flying like lazer beams and all is good. I'll also fine tune it with a walkback tune.
> 
> -ZA


I 100% agree. My dealer papertuned my bow when I bought it and had perfect holes. Since then I have readjusted everything (new rest, new peep, changed nock point etc.) and have not worried about re-papertuning. As long as my arrows are landing where they are supposed to at each pin from 20-60 yards...I am happy. 

And honestly regarding consistant grip, form, anchor, etc...I am not and expert nor do I really focus on it. I just focus on the "sight ring centered in peep", and "pin on target"...so for me, the Captain has been very forgiving considering my imperfect and inconsistent shot to shot form.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

TAP said:


> I have been through all the exercises. Tried NUMEROUS rests, when it drops....Lizard tongue.....it doesnt matter.
> 
> What is causing the riser to get dragged to the right when at draw.....this is the problem....


 Last try - 
pad some u-bolts and straddle the riser, fasten it to a stationary post in the shop . set it up where you can draw it .
You may just have gotton a weak riser out of a batch . 
Draw it fastened to something that wont let it flex, see what happens.
I did some double checking this morning , I dont have any cam lean at all. NONE.
Good luck!
Thomas


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

Big Thumbs Up to TMO !!! I have seen this done with a home made jig that fastens to the right side of the riser to prevent any flex or bend. I feel your emotion, but believe it or not, every now and then there is a weak riser produced. Might be a hard pill to swallow, but you may have one.

I checked my General on my draw board and everything was at spec. Shorter AtoA though.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

FREON22 said:


> Dear Bowtech,
> 
> 3 special requests from a sincere fan:
> 
> ...


I like the module stops as a reference the best for full draw timing.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

my admiral tuned to the inside and covered my sights also,bought a torqueless grip and it had to retuned,right down the center!!!! bullet holes and walk back, so that said i agree that its in the grip,


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## wis_archer (Jul 27, 2007)

skynight said:


> I did read it. All I saw is that you are not willing to take the bow apart.


Tony knows what he is doing.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

huntindoc said:


> Thanks for depressing me guys. I just got a call that the Sentinel in hardwoods gray that I ordered about 6 weeks ago is in. I ordered before I heard about this and I won't back out (wouldn't be right to). I had planned to make this my hunting bow but if it's that picky about grip it won't be worth a flip as a hunting bow.
> 
> One question. How can it be the roller guard if a shoot thru system didn't change anything? Doesn't it have to be something with the cams that makes the string move laterally during the draw cycle?
> 
> hd


Don't worry about this bow for hunting. I can put an arrow in the X at 100 yards with my Sentinel.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Thanks for all the tips people. I have a few ideas and some things I am going to try. Bottom line is this bow should shoot a little better than it is, I have the tenacity to do things now so I shall! 

Next week might be a different story.


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

Tap keep us posted let us know how it turns out. Let us know what your findings are.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

TAP said:


> I have a REAL problem with a statement like this one. In order to achieve speed a bow HAS to deliver X amount of energy to the arrow. Putting a 175 grain tip in a 500 is ludacris and might indeed solve your tuning issue, but believe me from experience that you are playing with fire. The problem lies in how the riser torques to the right when at draw.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't a bashing thread so let's not take it there. I have struggled with MANY other bows through the years. Somewhere there is a solution or a formula to get this right, but so far all of the things I have tried have resulted in little or no difference.


 I believe it's the roller guard. I machined mine to allow it to come inward towards the center of the bow by about 3/16" and it moved the POI about 2 inches to the right (right handed bow) at 20 yards.
With a cable rod, it will bend under the extreme cable loading at full draw and allow the riser to stay straighter than the ridgid aluminum roller guard. The roller guard also puts more cable loading into the bow's riser and limbs because it does not travel back with the cam axle's centerline to full draw.
I took the cables out of the rollers on my Admiral and weighed it to find that it only lost about 5 pounds when maxed out. I'm going to work on a cable rod adapter someday soon to test the theory to see what the center shot diference would be. I know that the bow will loose speed but it would be an easy comparison against the roller guard and 5 pounds off max and the cable rod at max.

My future Admiral replacement would be the current Admiral riser with a roller system in the Center Pivots, wide track Air Raid cams, a cable rod set up and a similar string stopper in the current location.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

FREON22 said:


> Dear Bowtech,
> 
> 3 special requests from a sincere fan:
> 
> ...


 "go back to LARGE timing marks in refrence to LIMBS not strings."

The timing marks are for reference to the cables and they are not correct either. That is due to the different angles of the top verses bottom cable goint to the cams,, due to the roller guard and where the cables cross. If the cables crossed dead center of the bow, they would be correct.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

walks with a gi said:


> I believe it's the roller guard. I machined mine to allow it to come inward towards the center of the bow by about 3/16" and it moved the POI about 2 inches to the right (right handed bow) at 20 yards.
> With a cable rod, it will bend under the extreme cable loading at full draw and allow the riser to stay straighter than the ridgid aluminum roller guard. The roller guard also puts more cable loading into the bow's riser and limbs because it does not travel back with the cam axle's centerline to full draw.
> I took the cables out of the rollers on my Admiral and weighed it to find that it only lost about 5 pounds when maxed out. I'm going to work on a cable rod adapter someday soon to test the theory to see what the center shot diference would be. I know that the bow will loose speed but it would be an easy comparison against the roller guard and 5 pounds off max and the cable rod at max.
> 
> My future Admiral replacement would be the current Admiral riser with a roller system in the Center Pivots, wide track Air Raid cams, a cable rod set up and a similar string stopper in the current location.


This guy was working on a cable slide replacment for the airborne....but he just disappeared???

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=691335&highlight=airborne+centershot


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

poole said:


> This guy was working on a cable slide replacment for the airborne....but he just disappeared???
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=691335&highlight=airborne+centershot


He actually posted to this thread a little ways back...

They were going to be too expensive to have the machining done, so they never made them.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

MikeTN said:


> He actually posted to this thread a little ways back...
> 
> They were going to be too expensive to have the machining done, so they never made them.


I wondered what happened. Just noticed that he had posted.


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## Montana Rawhide (Jul 13, 2006)

With both of my Captains, I set the center shot with the Easy Eye Laser Eze-Center Gauge and have my nock set so the arrow is centered in the berger holes. Both of them will shoot bullet holes in paper. I found no difference with either of these two bows or the Guardian & Commander I had the last couple of years. For broadheads I use either G5 Strikers or Slick Tricks. Both in 125 grain. With my Goldtip 75/95 Hunter XT's both bows will put the broadheads and target points right on top of one another out to 40 yds. That's as far as I've been shooting this spring. The Guardian & Commander would do the same. As long as I do my part, the bows do theirs. I still really like how many fewer parts the Captains have than either the Guardian or Commander had. When you're hundreds of miles away from home the simpler your equipment is, the better it is. Same goes if you never leave your back yard. I sold both the Guardian and Commander and have never looked back. They were really good bows, but I feel that the Captain is also.


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## HUNTNMT (Dec 10, 2005)

Montana Rawhide said:


> With both of my Captains, I set the center shot with the Easy Eye Laser Eze-Center Gauge and have my nock set so the arrow is centered in the berger holes. Both of them will shoot bullet holes in paper. I found no difference with either of these two bows or the Guardian & Commander I had the last couple of years. For broadheads I use either G5 Strikers or Slick Tricks. Both in 125 grain. With my Goldtip 75/95 Hunter XT's both bows will put the broadheads and target points right on top of one another out to 40 yds. That's as far as I've been shooting this spring. The Guardian & Commander would do the same. As long as I do my part, the bows do theirs. I still really like how many fewer parts the Captains have than either the Guardian or Commander had. When you're hundreds of miles away from home the simpler your equipment is, the better it is. Same goes if you never leave your back yard. I sold both the Guardian and Commander and have never looked back. They were really good bows, but I feel that the Captain is also.



I also have a Sentinal and it is setup just like the above and it paper tunes a couple different arrows. I think being centered in the berger hole is critical to the setup of these bows. The bow shoots centershot to one string width inside. I think it is very accurate and forgiving.


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## ozbillb (Dec 27, 2008)

So the bow has no cam lean but has problems as if it did.

Is it worth trying to actually create cam lean in the opposite direction to balance out whatever is causing the horizontal tear?

I don;t own one of these bows so can't try it but when all else fails try the ridiculous. It often works. (& in this case it doesn;t take much to give it a go)

It certainly won;t fix whatever the underlying problem is but it might just fix the symptom & it's the symptom that is causing grief.


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## Mr. Burns (Apr 21, 2008)

frankchugga said:


> You may have a deflection mismatch in the limbs. Split limb bows have this problem occassionally. You may be able to check this out by the following: just reverse the limbs.....right limb to the left side and vice versa. Do this on top and bottom limbs. If there is a deflection imbalance, the tear should reverse. BTW....your sight tape program rules..........


i have never heard of this issue on any of the captains.. i know of one issue with a sentinel that would NOT paper tune no matter what we did with it, and as we speak, it is sitting at bowtech.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

i think i may be on to something with my sentinal. since i bought the bow,i've been using a limbdriver on it and just can't seem to get a good hole in paper with it. don't get me wrong,i love my limbdrivers but on this particular bow,it' been giving me fits so i put on an old nap 2 prong and the first shot thru paper looks promising. i will try to get it dialed in this weekend and let u guys know what i find out.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

I put a NAP 3000 on it it didn't help my bow at all.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Good luck to all of you guys dealing with this problem. No way would I bang my head against the wall if I couldn't tune it like every other bow I have owned. I would get rid of it.

Sounds to me like Bowtech should man up and give a little attention to people who are having this problem. I would be surprised if they don't know what is causing this....


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

has anybody called bowtech to see what they say about it?


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

STELLIX said:


> has anybody called bowtech to see what they say about it?


That's what I would do for sure. I would call and get an RA# and just see...USNarcher did say that "Bowtech is not listening to their staff, perhaps they'll listen to the masses" I only hope that TAP gets it straightened out. When he does he should let everyone here know. Good Luck


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## huntindoc (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm thinking this is a common but not pervasive problem. I picked up my Sentinel this morning and I'm very pleased. Maybe I got an Anti-lemon but my experience thus far is great.

After putting on a Limbdriver and setting the nock and rest height, I eyeballed center shot and paper tuned. Three very small adjustments took me from a slight low/right tear to perfect bullet holes. This was with all accessories on the bow except for my stab. I did have a couple of holes that weren't consistent with the majority due to poor release's but no more so than any other bow I've tuned and less than most. 

The bow is incredibly quiet and dead in the hands and holds almost as well as my Constitution. The BC says 61.9 lbs, 29" shooting a 300 grain arrow 319.

I shot a 312 grain arrow at my DL of 28.5" and got 306
a 325 grain arrow shot 297
and a 425 grain arrow shot 265 (my hunting arrow)

I was skeptical about my choice after reading all the problems some very good shooters/tuners have had with this bow but thankfully it doesn't appear I will have the same. I may actually have to consider this for a 3D bow if my experience continues as it has started. We'll see after I walkback tune and broadhead tune over the next couple of days. Obviously there is a problem but it appears to not be in design but execution since not all bows have the problem.

hd

PS I have no cam lean and the arrow is running straight down the trough at full draw. I've never checked that on a bow I was setting up before, LOL. Thanks guys, LOL.


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

Mine has a tiny bit of cam lean on the lower cam and the top cam looks good. like i said before it puts the arrows where they need to go , it just looks funny at full draw with the arrow pointing to the left across the shelf.If you hold the grip tight it will torque and make the arrow fishtail, like most bows will do. I have benn shooting this bow for a few months and never even noticed the problem until i started reading about everybody elses.I guess i should leave it alone and get it out of my mind and make sure i have proper form and shoot it the best i can.Until somebody can come up with a fix i'll just deal with it.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

UPDATE*****

Per someones advice I went and picked up some .030 shims to shim the cam towards the cable roller. GUESS WHAT?! YOU CAN'T!!!! the cam is all integral and there is no way to shim it towards anything.

Oh well back to the drawing board I guess. Shot it for about 30 mins and it does indeed STACK arrows @ 45 yards, but in every group there is one arrow 6 inches left, right high or low.... 

Before you bring up the arrow...........I number and graph ALL of them so I know there aren't any quitters......that is always step one, before I do any sort of bow tuning....


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## Mossybuck (Jun 13, 2008)

I have a buddy that has a guardian. Last year he went to put a new rest on it and couldnt get it to tune. Same kind of problems you are having. He went thru everything he knew to do. He called bowtech and they said it was probably a weak limb and they sent him new limbs. Same problem. So he called them again and ended up sending the bow to bowtech and they sent him a new bow. They said that the riser was bent? Dude I dont have clue what to tell you to do, but to take it up with bowtech. Like I stated earlier mine shoots and tunes lights out. It could be riser or weak limbs. I just have a hard time thinking that it could be anything other than weak limbs. The cams, the bushings, the roller guard, and the riser are all machined parts. I am sure they are to spec. or should be. Let us know


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Before I say this I want everyone to know that I am not calling someone a poor shot or that I am by any means the best shot.

That being said. Like Tony stated. I can stack arrows in the X all the way out to 100 yards. But there will be at least 1 if not 2 or 3 that will go off horizontally. 

Now to the part that might sting for some....but remember I am not making any accusation about your shooting abilities.

If you are a tournament archer that cannot afford to miss more than a handfull of points in a weekend of shooting 200+ arrows these bows are not for you as they are. The ones that are saying that they have no issues with theirs, just aren't as critical as some. I have said this before, I challenge some one to take the Sentinel and go shoot a 550 in a field round. I can with my Commander, Constitution even a 545 with my Allegiance but I have yet to even shoot a 535 with my Sentinel. Even shots that feel like the best form and release that I could ever hope for don't hit where the aim is.

So speculate away about grips, arrow spine and even rests. I have tried them all and it comes down to the same conclusion. And if your bow is doing exactly what you want it to do then that is great. I love it when a bow fits like a glove. And to anyone wanting to purchace one of these. Go shoot it, it truely does shoot great. The CP's of 09 feel better than any bow I have ever shot. I will hopefully be able to get with the designers one on one in a couple of weeks and get their perspective.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Before I say this I want everyone to know that I am not calling someone a poor shot or that I am by any means the best shot.
> 
> That being said. Like Tony stated. I can stack arrows in the X all the way out to 100 yards. But there will be at least 1 if not 2 or 3 that will go off horizontally.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU! My sentiment exactly. Well stated sir.


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

Good statment Usnarcher


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

USNarcher said:


> Before I say this I want everyone to know that I am not calling someone a poor shot or that I am by any means the best shot.
> 
> That being said. Like Tony stated. I can stack arrows in the X all the way out to 100 yards. But there will be at least 1 if not 2 or 3 that will go off horizontally.
> 
> ...


post of the day


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

I found this at another site

"It's going to sound ridiculous, but check where your arrow is at the Berger hole (rest mounting hole). My local shop said they've found that the arrow needs to be centered on the hole, or lower if anything. Mine arrow's bottom edge was centered in the hole, and I got a 1"-1.25" tear anywhere near center-shot. The only place the paper tune was close was way inside. Again, it sounded extremely unlikely to me, but I went ahead and lowered the rest about 1/8" so the arrow was centered on the hole, and lowered the loop a corresponding amount, and lo and behold, bullet hole! I still can't believe that small change fixed it, but it did, and the shop has run into the same problem a number of times also, and resolved them the same way. I suggest you at least check your arrow's orientation at the hole. Good luck!"


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## SDHNTR (Aug 8, 2007)

TAP,
I too have had the exact some problems with my Captain. It has driven me crazy. I called Bowtech and they basically tried to convince me that it was all me and there was no way the bow had any problems. I took it back to my dealer (who is awesome) and let him deal with it. They ended up replacing the bow entirely. Now I'm just trying to find out what rest works best before I can really get to shooting the new one to see if the issue has been solved. I'll be watching this.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

To those of you that are having problems with tuning, is there any clearance between your string and string suppressor? My Admiral had always had a bit of fishtail out of the bow but it grouped and shot Muzzys pertty well. I had tried on a couple occasions to adjust the string stopper in to try a bit of gap. I ended up trashing out the stock carbon tube on the string suppressor to get it free and found that it was glued in. There was no way it would go in any further also because it was bottomed out! I machined a new suppressor rod out of aluminum and it is easily adjusted now and have about a credit card's width between the string and the rubber STS cushion. The fishtail is almost all gone now and I think it groups better than it did.
I'm still going to make a cable rod for this bow,, someday.

Here's a link to the suppressor rod I made.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1054741247#post1054741247


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## huntindoc (Feb 8, 2006)

USN, do you think this is a problem with all of these bows? Mine does not point crossways on the shelf at full draw like you guys do. My last two 5 shot groups today at 45 yards were less than 2.5" which is as good or better than I can do with my Constitution. This is a fixed pin/no magnification sight compared to a fixed pin sight with a lens in the Connie.

I'm sure my shooting is pedestrian compared to you guys. I've never had the opportunity to shoot a field course as there is not one in our whole state.I'll back up to 80 yards this weekend and see what it will do. You're probably right and my shooting is not good enough to see the problems you are seeing.

If the bow is going to throw an occasional arrow horizontally it is not worthy of being a hunting bow.....as much as I despise dropping points in 3D making a bad shot on a living creature is MUCH WORSE. I will have to shoot it in wierd positions(like encountered hunting) where grip will be difficult to reproduce and see what happens. After the problems on this thread I will have to build confidence over time if I keep it.

hd


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

is this a product of the binary cam system? the roller guard? wondering if anyone knows if a iceman with single cam has this problem,my admiral tuned just inside and shoots bullets holes consistantly but i have yet to shoot it 20 yards,just shot it to get it tuned,id like to hear from someone witha iceman and see if they expierience this problem that way if not then you can throw out the roller being the prob


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

bump


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## vonasemj (Nov 19, 2007)

Since this thread popped up, I decided to see how my Admiral would paper tune. I have my rest set up about 1/16" inside of center and the arrow centered over the berger holes, which is where it french and walkback tunes. I set up 6 ft from the paper and my first shot had about a 1.5" nock left tear. I noticed that at full draw, the arrow pointed slightly to the left. I moved my rest to the right and the tear got shorter. I eventually had the rest basically touching the riser and there was still a slight left tear, so I moved the rest back to where it was originally and started playing around with my grip. I found if I tried to make the arrow point straight down the trough I would get a nasty nock left tear. The next shot I made sure only the meat of my thumb was contacting the grip and I completely relaxed my hand. The arrow pointed quite a bit to the left, but the result was a perfect bullet hole. I repeated it about three more times with the same results. I haven't check to see if I get the same tear from other distances, but I plan to do so this weekend and also make sure my french tune and walk back tune ends up in the same spot.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

vonasemj said:


> Since this thread popped up, I decided to see how my Admiral would paper tune. I have my rest set up about 1/16" inside of center and the arrow centered over the berger holes, which is where it french and walkback tunes. I set up 6 ft from the paper and my first shot had about a 1.5" nock left tear. I noticed that at full draw, the arrow pointed slightly to the left. I moved my rest to the right and the tear got shorter. I eventually had the rest basically touching the riser and there was still a slight left tear, so I moved the rest back to where it was originally and started playing around with my grip. I found if I tried to make the arrow point straight down the trough I would get a nasty nock left tear. The next shot I made sure only the meat of my thumb was contacting the grip and I completely relaxed my hand. The arrow pointed quite a bit to the left, but the result was a perfect bullet hole. I repeated it about three more times with the same results. I haven't check to see if I get the same tear from other distances, but I plan to do so this weekend and also make sure my french tune and walk back tune ends up in the same spot.


And there lies the problem. The slightest bit of pressure from your bow hand will create torque and I do mean the slightest. Infact you don't even notice it. That is why a great feeling shot does not hit the mark.

Ok so the bow is designed to have the arrow going \ and your stab going / this way and your sight is somewhere in the middle. (I really hope that was not the intent of the designer ). The problem is to get the bow to draw the exact same time after time. You just can't do it. Do the math, what does 1/8" at the tip of the arrow equate to at 80 yards a big fat 3. Actually the arrow tip doesn't move, your sight does due to the torque.

Now from what I have seen and shot, the Admiral is almost un noticable and shoots great. When I drew my Sentinel back the very first time and saw the arrow pointing to the left I let down and ran back to the shop to see what I screwed up. I couldn't believe how it was oriented.

For those asking if it is on all the bows. I cannot answer that. I can speak for the 6 or 7 Sentinels, Captains and Admirals that I have shot. The most recent Sentinel I shot did not seem to be as bad as mine, but I didn't really tune it and go shoot some long distances. It's hard to tell anything at 20 yards. This is very perplexing. WHY IS IT that as you draw the bow the arrow wants to pivot?????????? And if it pivots to draw then it has to do the same at release. So much movement cannot produce consistancy.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

USNarcher said:


> And there lies the problem. The slightest bit of pressure from your bow hand will create torque and I do mean the slightest. Infact you don't even notice it. That is why a great feeling shot does not hit the mark.
> 
> Ok so the bow is designed to have the arrow going \ and your stab going / this way and your sight is somewhere in the middle. (I really hope that was not the intent of the designer ). The problem is to get the bow to draw the exact same time after time. You just can't do it. Do the math, what does 1/8" at the tip of the arrow equate to at 80 yards a big fat 3. Actually the arrow tip doesn't move, your sight does due to the torque.
> 
> ...


I am surprised that you can't get anything out of Bowtech? If they are not listening to staff shooters, who will they listen too?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Hey folks......thanks to ALL whom responded but I can see things potentially taking a turn to a bashing thread and let's not let that happen ok?

Fact of the matter I think from a build standpoint this bow is built as good or better than anything I have owned....I just want it to shoot as good as I know I can personally shoot and I am not there yet.

There has been alot of interesting ideas, many of which come down to grip, I will keep an open mind on the topic but from experience I know how to not hold a bow. If the bow is just twitchy by it's inherent design, then so be it and at the end of the day I am pretty sure we will either rule that in or rule it out.

I am going to shoot again this afternoon and hopefully compare to my new sentinal. Should be an interesting day!


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

tap

Good luck if you figure anything out be sure to repost solution


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

TAP said:


> Hey folks......thanks to ALL whom responded but I can see things potentially taking a turn to a bashing thread and let's not let that happen ok?
> 
> Fact of the matter I think from a build standpoint this bow is built as good or better than anything I have owned....I just want it to shoot as good as I know I can personally shoot and I am not there yet.
> 
> ...


Good Luck w/it man! I hope to read positive results/finds.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

*pm sent*

pm sent


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

buy a iceman or torqueless grip


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

*Tap and USNarcher*

I'd like to know what your 'gut feeling' is , as to a soloution. 
It seems that you two are on top of what the bow is doing , and I know the isn't a concrete answer yet. But I'm just curious. 
What is worst case scenario?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

tmo said:


> I'd like to know what your 'gut feeling' is , as to a soloution.
> It seems that you two are on top of what the bow is doing , and I know the isn't a concrete answer yet. But I'm just curious.
> What is worst case scenario?


The problem solver in me (which is what I get paid to do during the day) says it is riser flex or bend. I can't say if it is static, or dynamic but that is my gut feeling. This explains why the longer the axle the worse it appears to get.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

TAP said:


> The problem solver in me (which is what I get paid to do during the day) says it is riser flex or bend. I can't say if it is static, or dynamic but that is my gut feeling. This explains why the longer the axle the worse it appears to get.


That was my thought as well. 

One idea:
Have somebody measure the a2a at full draw, put it in a press that presses on the limb tips and press all the way to the measurement that was taken at full draw. Before you press it take some measurements from the riser to the edge of the press in various location, then remeasure same places while the bow is pressed.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

holy cow,are these just bad designs?did the marquis and general have these problems last year,does the iceman this year have this problem?somebody that owns one of these please way in because maybe can start from eliminating some of the cable roller and cam lean issues that would help throw those thoughts out


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

TAP said:


> The problem solver in me (which is what I get paid to do during the day) says it is riser flex or bend. I can't say if it is static, or dynamic but that is my gut feeling. This explains why the longer the axle the worse it appears to get.


 Got any feasable soloutions if that is it ? And if riser flex is the answer , then your opinion is that its across the board , and the majority or all of the line Captains are involved?
I know this is going on assumption , but riser flex cant be fixed , and if thats the problem it should be grounds for a recall. 
If this is actually found to be the problem, more will test the way you are, and once it becomes wide spread and common knowledge , thats it , there will have to be a recall.
i hate to say it , but it could be a reality . 
Riser flex (too much riser flex) just cant be fixed.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

tmo said:


> Got any feasable soloutions if that is it ? And if riser flex is the answer , then your opinion is that its across the board , and the majority or all of the line Captains are involved?
> I know this is going on assumption , but riser flex cant be fixed , and if thats the problem it should be grounds for a recall.
> If this is actually found to be the problem, more will test the way you are, and once it becomes wide spread and common knowledge , thats it , there will have to be a recall.
> i hate to say it , but it could be a reality .
> Riser flex (too much riser flex) just cant be fixed.


Of course it could be fixed...a few C clamps, pulleys and some cable and you could fix it right up! It would be like having extra stabilizers.


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## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

We've all had bows that will not tune . I hope its not inherent to the model , as I have a captain on the way , with TAP's experience , it seems like he would know if its something he is doing , dude shoot another bow for awhile ,get your mind off it , these things will drive you crazy , come back to it in a few days , and send the thing to bowtech if it refuses to shoot


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

tmo said:


> Got any feasable soloutions if that is it ? And if riser flex is the answer , then your opinion is that its across the board , and the majority or all of the line Captains are involved?
> I know this is going on assumption , but riser flex cant be fixed , and if thats the problem it should be grounds for a recall.
> If this is actually found to be the problem, more will test the way you are, and once it becomes wide spread and common knowledge , thats it , there will have to be a recall.
> i hate to say it , but it could be a reality .
> Riser flex (too much riser flex) just cant be fixed.


ALL bow risers flex! NOT ALL bow risers are bent. This is what we need to figure out somehow. If indeed the riser is machined crooked, or it has just 'relaxed' into a non perfect shape is yet to be determined. Measuring this could be impossible as it would only take a few thousandths to affect the shooting.

I wonder if perhaps the center pivot point might not be perfectly perpendicular to the shooting plane? This could also have adverse effects during the draw cycle.

I am trying to think of all the possible cause/effect variables before I dig to far into this.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

TAP said:


> The problem solver in me (which is what I get paid to do during the day) says it is riser flex or bend. I can't say if it is static, or dynamic but that is my gut feeling. This explains why the longer the axle the worse it appears to get.



That was another Issue with My Admiral, just never took the time to really figure it out before I sold it. Take a straight edge and put it in a few different places on the riser (from limb to limb) nothing quite lined up on Mine. I know this could be some of the "engineering" of the geometry of the bow, but it just didn't look right. Also pay close attention to the riser while pressing the bow, again almost all risers display some flex, but it seemed excessive on Mine.

To touch on what USN said, And I mean no disrespect to Anyone by this but, some might not notice or even care about this "issue" If You are only Hunting with, or shooting at 3" spots on a target in the backyard, it will certainly get the job done, and is one of the best feeling bows on the market. But like He said, if You are shooting at Quarter size 12 rings on 3D targets out to 40-50 yds, it can and will cause problems.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

TAP said:


> ALL bow risers flex! NOT ALL bow risers are bent.


It is hard to interpret statements that are typed, but from the punctuation and caps??? I think every one here is just trying to help...if you know the answers than why start a thread asking for help

Again, maybe I misunderstood?


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

TAP said:


> ALL bow risers flex! NOT ALL bow risers are bent. This is what we need to figure out somehow. If indeed the riser is machined crooked, or it has just 'relaxed' into a non perfect shape is yet to be determined. Measuring this could be impossible as it would only take a few thousandths to affect the shooting.
> 
> I wonder if perhaps the center pivot point might not be perfectly perpendicular to the shooting plane? This could also have adverse effects during the draw cycle.
> 
> I am trying to think of all the possible cause/effect variables before I dig to far into this.


The center pivot being askew is a good theory. It would seem its one of the most technical sections of this riser. And you are right , it would seriously affect d.c.
I really think it is more to do with the integrity of the riser as a whole . 
They are a machined cast right?
I just thought a weak mix


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

im no expert but with mine its the grip,witout torqueless tunes hair inside,with torqueless it tunes way outside,


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

poole said:


> It is hard to interpret statements that are typed, but from the punctuation and caps??? I think every one here is just trying to help...if you know the answers than why start a thread asking for help
> 
> Again, maybe I misunderstood?


Yes I agree forums and typing can be misleading. That is purely a statement (me thinking with my fingers) that wasn't indtended to be anything durogatory.....


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## vern96 (Feb 18, 2003)

*my $.02,....*

In my line of work (IT) we conclude that the answer is "PEBKAC" (pronounced _peb-cack_)...stands for "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair...

I think in THIS case it would be referred to as "PEBBAS"...... Problem Exists Between Bow And Shooter !!!!


:darkbeer::darkbeer::wink:


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

vern96 said:


> In my line of work (IT) we conclude that the answer is "PEBKAC" (pronounced _peb-cack_)...stands for "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair...
> 
> I think in THIS case it would be referred to as "PEBBAS"...... Problem Exists Between Bow And Shooter !!!!
> 
> ...


In MY line of work we would call a person who posts something this useless a Eye Dee Ten Tee! The acronym is: I D 10 T


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

TAP said:


> In MY line of work we would call a person who posts something this useless a Eye Dee Ten Tee! The acronym is: I D 10 T


IDIOT, now thats funny.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Elf Friend said:


> IDIOT, now thats funny.


Brotherly Love at it's best! VERN96 is my ill-legitimate no good brother who does nothing but eat and hunt!  oh yah....he drinks like a fish too!


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

Yep, I see the resembleance in both your mannerisms and choice of work. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree after all. I thought you would be shooting this morning.


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## frankchugga (Feb 26, 2005)

TAP said:


> ALL bow risers flex! NOT ALL bow risers are bent. This is what we need to figure out somehow. If indeed the riser is machined crooked, or it has just 'relaxed' into a non perfect shape is yet to be determined. Measuring this could be impossible as it would only take a few thousandths to affect the shooting.
> 
> I wonder if perhaps the center pivot point might not be perfectly perpendicular to the shooting plane? This could also have adverse effects during the draw cycle.
> 
> I am trying to think of all the possible cause/effect variables before I dig to far into this.


Try this yet??......the 09 centerpivots are designed differently than the 07 or 08's. The limbs now just set on top of a structure at the mid limb pivot point. If this structure was manufactured incorrectly and not perfectly level (or symmetrical) across or forward, this could do strange things possibly. Just an idea.....:darkbeer:


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

I saw a sentinel at a shoot this weekend that had a funny looking roller guard that made it a shoot through . It looked factory,but i never saw the owner of it to ask him if it was factory or if he made it.I wish i could have found him to see if it had them same problems with the shoot through setup.Has anybody ever seen one ?


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## STRAITBT (Jan 12, 2009)

After following this thread for a while now, I decided to take a good hard look at my Admiral. Low and behold, my arrow at full draw is sitting cockeyed...tip is about 1/8" - 3/16" left (right handed shooter). I had been having some trouble getting tight groups at 30 and 40, so that's what prompted me to take a look. And well, after reading this, and messing with my grip a bit, I realized just how "touchy" this bow really is. 

As for cam lean...very minimal, if any.

What I found tightened my groups for me...I am used to "gripping" my release (Scott Mongoose). When gripping the release, my groups were 3" or so at 30 and 3.5" at 40. So, I tried just letting the strap do the work, laying my finger on the release trigger and almost using it as a back tension release. My groups tightened up to about 2 -2.5" at 30 and 3" at 40. It's not ideal, but it's a step in the right direction.

With all of that said, I have yet to paper tune this thing. I haven't paper tuned a bow in years...but I also haven't shot competition in years. 

I will be very interested to see how things pan out with your bow TAP and hopefully things will trickle down through BowTech to get this issue fixed!!!!!!


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

Keep this at the top...I am interested to see the findings and end results. TAP you out there and have anymore findings?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Yup!, Still here. I shot a pretty good round this weekend with it. I went and shot a St. Jude Charity event with my two youngins.

I shot 22 up but the longest shot was 30 yards so I can't really use that as a testimonial for the accuracy. I have said all along that the bow shoots pretty good, but the misses I am observing at range are new territory for me. I have always been able to bare shaft and make a bow as forgiving as humany possible, but this one just won't have it.

I also got to shoot my Sentinal this weekend for about 30 minutes. MOST of that time was getting the Hoggernaut dialed in. I am going to humbley plug my software here a bit. I sighted a 20 yard, and a 70 yard with the hoggernaut and used my Mobile TAP in my phone to compute marks and a speed. I told me that the speed was 293.96 f/s. OBVIOUSLY I couldn't wait to get home to compare with my Pro-Chrono. There is something wrong with my chrono cuz it said 294 f/s!   Gotta love technology! 

I will keep this thread posted as I figure things out.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Ok guys. Not that I am going to have any quick fixes for you.....but the guys at BT have read this thread and are discussing our issues. They say that they will give me a call this week to discuss it. Knowing the process I hope that they call sooner than later.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

I didn't want to believe it at first, because it's hard to sell a #50 bow in a target colour, but now I agree.

All my groups are horizontal, at 100 yards my arrows will be almost level but up to 18" across. I can't get it to group in tight circles like it should.

Now I'm looking for a Commander, and trying to figure out a price that will make my Captain sell quick.


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## STRAITBT (Jan 12, 2009)

USNarcher said:


> Ok guys. Not that I am going to have any quick fixes for you.....but the guys at BT have read this thread and are discussing our issues. They say that they will give me a call this week to discuss it. Knowing the process I hope that they call sooner than later.



I emailed a buddy of mine on their pro-staff this morning....haven't heard anything yet. But maybe, just maybe...the squeaky wheel will finally get some grease!!!!!


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## fryedaddy (Apr 8, 2007)

its probably hand torque... or an improper spined arrow... you may not want to believe that... even with a perfect grip there is sometimes torque... if the nock hits left and the point hits right... try to move the rest to the right and see if u can get a bullet hole then... usually the string moves the the right of center for right hand shooters because of torque

using a laser to find center is only for a starting point... i shoot perfect bullet holes on my bowtechs... i use a laser to find center then shoot through paper and adjust accordingly... when the point hits left or right move te rest in the direct of the point... if point hits right ... move arrow rest right... if point hits left... move arrow rest left... 

i hope this works for u... i know it can be frustrating


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

STRAITBT said:


> I emailed a buddy of mine on their pro-staff this morning....haven't heard anything yet. But maybe, just maybe...the squeaky wheel will finally get some grease!!!!!


BT has never polled their staff shooters for feedback. I have tried to get them to use the staff for this purpose. It might help to get comments from those that have been chosen to represent the company and actually use them as a resourse.



fryedaddy said:


> its probably hand torque... or an improper spined arrow... you may not want to believe that... even with a perfect grip there is sometimes torque... if the nock hits left and the point hits right... try to move the rest to the right and see if u can get a bullet hole then... usually the string moves the the right of center for right hand shooters because of torque
> 
> using a laser to find center is only for a starting point... i shoot perfect bullet holes on my bowtechs... i use a laser to find center then shoot through paper and adjust accordingly... when the point hits left or right move te rest in the direct of the point... if point hits right ... move arrow rest right... if point hits left... move arrow rest left...
> 
> i hope this works for u... i know it can be frustrating


All great ideas I will have to try them. :tongue::shade: Thanks.


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## wis_archer (Jul 27, 2007)

His bow definently has cam lean. Every one of them I've drawn does the same thing. Unfortunently, they are binary cams......so eliminating the lean is about hopeless.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

wis_archer said:


> His bow definently has cam lean. Every one of them I've drawn does the same thing. Unfortunently, they are binary cams......so eliminating the lean is about hopeless.


My '08 Commander shoots bullet holes. It also has binaries..This is something going on with the newer bows/risers, as there have been quite a few folks w/the same issues...TAP and USN absolutely know bows and tuning.


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## LIMBHANGER 36 (Aug 2, 2004)

I had a Sentinnel for about 3 weeks. Loved the draw cycle and specs of the bow but couldn't get it to do the same thing consistantly. Practically wore out the windage on my target sight! I tried the std side plates, a torqueless grip, and no grip at all. This bow was very finicky on hand placement, too much for my taste it made a trip to another home. Have had an AM 35 ever since and shooting very well.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

i just like the sentinel to much to give up! come on tap give us the awnser we all need.i will even say please:mg:....after 40 meters it just wont groop..at 20 its dead on..maybee i should just shoot 20


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

i went and shot a commander and a brigadere again today and they both have the arrow pointing to the left at full draw just like my captain.has anybody else noticed it on those bows? i havent heard of it on them, maybe its just how a right handed bow is and i never noticed it before.could i be pulling the string to hard to the right when i anchor or do all of these bows have problems.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

STELLIX said:


> i went and shot a commander and a brigadere again today and they both have the arrow pointing to the left at full draw just like my captain.has anybody else noticed it on those bows? i havent heard of it on them, maybe its just how a right handed bow is and i never noticed it before.could i be pulling the string to hard to the right when i anchor or do all of these bows have problems.


It does slightly but the big difference is that the Commander does not torque at full draw. It comes back and is rock solid.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

im getting wrapped up in this and i am about to buy a iceman,is the rollerguards causing this problem? if someone knows or thinks it is rollerguards please let me know before i drop the cash on this bw


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

thanks, i really like the feel of the commander but i didnt want to buy one if it wasnt much different than my captain. i'll probably make my captain my hunting bow and use the commander for 3d until somebody solves the mystery


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

So is everyone who owns a Captain experiencing this? I just bought one 2 days ago and I should be getting it Wed or Thurs. Just wondering if this is a problem across the board or just on certain bows.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> To those of you that are having problems with tuning, is there any clearance between your string and string suppressor? My Admiral had always had a bit of fishtail out of the bow but it grouped and shot Muzzys pertty well. I had tried on a couple occasions to adjust the string stopper in to try a bit of gap. I ended up trashing out the stock carbon tube on the string suppressor to get it free and found that it was glued in. There was no way it would go in any further also because it was bottomed out! I machined a new suppressor rod out of aluminum and it is easily adjusted now and have about a credit card's width between the string and the rubber STS cushion. The fishtail is almost all gone now and I think it groups better than it did.
> I'm still going to make a cable rod for this bow,, someday.
> 
> Here's a link to the suppressor rod I made.
> ...


 Here's a link to the cable rod I made today

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=942938


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

goldtip22 said:


> So is everyone who owns a Captain experiencing this? I just bought one 2 days ago and I should be getting it Wed or Thurs. Just wondering if this is a problem across the board or just on certain bows.


I just got one and it's the my favorite bow to date. I'm probably not a good enough shot to say if the bow is inaccurate out at 100 yards so who knows. The bow is great though. Only problem I have is that the rest is way inside to the riser like a lot of other people. Not a big deal though.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

can u hold a group with these new 09 center pivots?


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

deerwhackmaster said:


> can u hold a group with these new 09 center pivots?


I'm grouping better than I ever have and am slapping arrows. I've only had it about a week though and haven't aired it out past 40 yards tough and apparently it's the longer distances where the problems arise so who knows.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

reading all this freaking me out i really like the icemanbut its not far off in design from the ads and caps and i dont wanna spend money on something im gonna have to sell cause it wont tune or group arrows


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

deerwhackmaster said:


> reading all this freaking me out i really like the icemanbut its not far off in design from the ads and caps and i dont wanna spend money on something im gonna have to sell cause it wont tune or group arrows


 They will tune and group it's just some of us are very picky.

Stand about 6 feet behind someone shooting an '09 and you'll see the string coming off the top cam to the right badly (right handed shooter). That's the roller guard torquing the riser, not cam lean. I pretty much eliminated that with a cable rod on mine. They will still shoot good the way they are.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

goldtip22 said:


> So is everyone who owns a Captain experiencing this? I just bought one 2 days ago and I should be getting it Wed or Thurs. Just wondering if this is a problem across the board or just on certain bows.


No. Not everyone has this problem. 
I finally got all my pins dialed in last week. 
Tight groups to 60 yrd so far. 
Good enough shot to tell? I know where I'm at, call it what you will. I aint up for an arguement.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Like a Dog chasin' it's tail .....


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> Here's a link to the cable rod I made today
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=942938


Looks cool and I thought about the same. But you will lose poundage and have a very high letoff. I found this with the Commander and the LT. But it was easy to get back with a few twists of the cables. The roller guard puts a lot of pre load on the limbs.

Hey Bob. I had my tail cropped so I don't chase it no mo. :darkbeer: But I may have a tiger by the tail. :shade: You gonna be at the safari or do you have bigger plans?


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

yep
Taking the wife over to Safari for pre NM camping trip. Getting her back to eatin dirt and bugs for dinner.


So why don't you just put your Forks and last years harness on the bow and be done with it?


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

I checked my left hand Sentinel. The arrow is almost centered at rest, but has a noticable cross over to the right at full draw if I visually align the arrow with the stabilizer. I also experience flyers for no good reason periodically, but I was sure that was me. Now I have questions. I've only had the bow for a week, so I cannot make any judgement. 
The pro shop has had my Sentinel in a Hooter Shooter shooting into the same hole without any difficulty at twenty yards. 
Is there two problems? Arrow alignment, as well as the bow being randomly unforgiving, or is the alignment the root of the problem. Truthfully I loved the bow until I read this post and made a closer inspection.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Bob_Looney said:


> yep
> Taking the wife over to Safari for pre NM camping trip. Getting her back to eatin dirt and bugs for dinner.
> 
> 
> So why don't you just put your Forks and last years harness on the bow and be done with it?


I kind of tried that Bob. My personal opinion is the cam is causing my issues. But it could also be the limbs and how the axle is oriented so that when you draw back it forces the string to the inside. I am not as knowledgable as most in the deign workings of the bow instrument. I wanted to put Commander cams on it but the new axle system doesn't allow that either and I don't own a machine shop to manufacture some that would make them fit.



heavy dart said:


> I checked my left hand Sentinel. The arrow is almost centered at rest, but has a noticable cross over to the right at full draw if I visually align the arrow with the stabilizer. I also experience flyers for no good reason periodically, but I was sure that was me. Now I have questions. I've only had the bow for a week, so I cannot make any judgement.
> The pro shop has had my Sentinel in a Hooter Shooter shooting into the same hole without any difficulty at twenty yards.
> Is there two problems? Arrow alignment, as well as the bow being randomly unforgiving, or is the alignment the root of the problem. Truthfully I loved the bow until I read this post and made a closer inspection.


Any bow can shoot good at 20 yards tuned or not it just has to be consistant. Especially out of a Hooter Shooter. If you have to tune a bow to the inside of what the designer states is the center shot then there is an issue. There was little clearance to start with so you don't want to take that away. I love the bow too. It is the best feeling bow I have ever shot, except fot the grip....that's another thread ....but how a bow feels is only part of the equation, it also has to deliver every time. Then the rest is up to me.

Bt I know that you are watching. Maybe you should ask your staff shooters for feedback. We are here for more than a free bow and to look good on the range. You design some of the best bows but you don't shoot them for what they are designed for. You want to make a target bow ask for feedback from target shooters. No one is perfect, a little constructive criticism can go a long way and make the future very rewarding. There is a reason that Commanders are selling better now than ever.


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

Wouldn't shooting some long distance groups with a hooter shooter provide some useful information?


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

jcmorgan31 said:


> Wouldn't shooting some long distance groups with a hooter shooter provide some useful information?


Yes it can. But after that I can't hold the bow as steady as a Hooter shooter. :shade: Close though.


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

USNarcher said:


> Yes it can. But after that I can't hold the bow as steady as a Hooter shooter. :shade: Close though.


LOL. I would think it would at least identify the problem as either bow design or shooter. If it is shooter related, then there may not be a fix. It may just be a very form criticle design. If it is in the bow's design, then that would be something to pursue.


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

I do know that this thread has give me a great excuse for my pathetic field scores with my Sentinel though..... :darkbeer:


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

jcmorgan31 said:


> I do know that this thread has give me a great excuse for my pathetic field scores with my Sentinel though..... :darkbeer:



Actually.....that is a good idea. I may buy one just for an excuse when I am shooting 3D. :mg:


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

jcmorgan31 said:


> LOL. I would think it would at least identify the problem as either bow design or shooter. If it is shooter related, then there may not be a fix. It may just be a very form criticle design. If it is in the bow's design, then that would be something to pursue.


You sayin there's a problem with the shooter????????:box::box::box:

Ok latest test of accuracy 80 yards Field target. 

08 Commander- 30/30 in the spot 10 arrows at a time w/16x's....It was a very good day at the range. :shade: It was a first for that many arrows in in a row.

09 Sentinel- I'm feelin good after that display with the Commander. 21/30 in the spot w/4x's. 5-4's, 3-3's and one miss. All misses on the horizontal line none high or low.


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

USNarcher said:


> You sayin there's a problem with the shooter????????:box::box::box:
> 
> Ok latest test of accuracy 80 yards Field target.
> 
> ...


 Not at all.

That is a huge difference. I usually just assume misses are my fault. Guess I should head out with the XLR and the Sentinel and see what the difference shows up to be.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Same here.....When dialing in the Sentinal this weekend with the Hoggernaut at 70 yards I had a GREAT horizontal group. High and low was normal 3-4 variance but the width was closer to 8-10 inches.

I wish I knew what the solution was, but as I work on this thing, I'll keep this thread up to date.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

sounds like i made a big mistake!:mg: i should have got a left over 08 commander instead of a 09 sentinel.. with that saved cash i could have bought one hell of a sight and scope


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

lost american said:


> sounds like i made a big mistake!:mg: i should have got a left over 08 commander instead of a 09 sentinel.. with that saved cash i could have bought one hell of a sight and scope


If you shoot your bow and are happy with your shooting/groups, then you did not make a mistake. Like I have always said, this bow feels and shoots great. 

It just has a communications problem with the arrow.


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## wild thang (Feb 13, 2008)

What is everyone using for - arrow length & spine verses draw weight & length

I have tried moving the rest up and down, side to side, and 400 & 340 spine arrows from 27 - 29 inches. My bow seems to prefer the arrow half way up the berger hole and 340 spine arrow at 27.75 inches. My bow is 29 inch 62 lb.


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## Mr. Burns (Apr 21, 2008)

i have 4 captains, and none of these issues at all. none of the center pivots have had any issues this year. 

i think its all the shooter.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Mr. Burns said:


> i have 4 captains, and none of these issues at all. none of the center pivots have had any issues this year.
> 
> i think its all the shooter.



No offense but, I think it has been stated that many shooters would not notice the difference due to their own personal capabilities or shooting habits. I don't think it is the shooter at all. How many people can do what USNarcher just described he did with his Commander and then the drastic difference with the Captain?

It ain't the shooter.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Mr. Burns said:


> i have 4 captains, and none of these issues at all. none of the center pivots have had any issues this year.
> 
> i think its all the shooter.


Wrong. :darkbeer:


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

John are you having any of the same issuses with your commander?can you tell a difference between it and the sentinel?


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

STELLIX said:


> John are you having any of the same issuses with your commander?can you tell a difference between it and the sentinel?


PM sent


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## Dextreme (Jul 7, 2005)

-bowfreak- said:


> No offense but, I think it has been stated that many shooters would not notice the difference due to their own personal capabilities or shooting habits. I don't think it is the shooter at all. How many people can do what USNarcher just described he did with his Commander and then the drastic difference with the Captain?
> 
> It ain't the shooter.


I think it can be the shooter...for the same reasons why when someone starts a posts "AM32 or Admiral?" our common response answer is "shoot both and see what works best for you".


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

Has bowtech responded yet? I called and asked and they blamed my grip. That was also 3 months ago.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

*Sentinel Tuning*

I wish we could just edit less than helpful comments from this thread so it would take half as long to read. *Reading the entire thread before posting should be a prerequisite.* What a good read with hopefully a happy ending but its a long shot. I agree completely with TAPS, USNarcher and most of the others. There should be an understanding that not all of us here worried about shooting broadheads and hitting pie plates the size of vitals right now. Some of us are 100% focused on groupings, x's and 10's.

Shaft centered on shelf - check
Torque at full draw - check
Little or no cam lean - check
Lights out shooting ability with frequent flyers - CHECK

I'm shooting a lighter spine than recommended to get my Sentinel to tune (or close). I already owned a Captain this year with the same problems. I'm shooting upwards of 150-200 hundred shots per day. I find that the grip is the major problem. I'm just trying to get more consistent. So far my best with it is a 532 field (with a miss due to setting sight wrong). I know I can do much better but its just inconsistent.

I did speak to Bowtech about this and they were not exactly as helpful as I would have liked although their enthusiasm was there. The only thing that will help this from their standpoint is a loss of $$$. My opinion is that it is a poor riser design once pressure is forced onto the handle. I would tend to believe the grip may be just a fraction of an inch too far to the right (outward).

Bottom line is that Bowtech is not worried about the competitors in the target or 3D world. That is proven by their shooter programs. They have found a great demographic from a sales aspect. Let's hope they can grow from this. For now, I feel like I have wasted one of my best shooting years on a less than perfect bow although I'm not giving up yet.
JS


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

bowpro34 said:


> I wish we could just edit less than helpful comments from this thread so it would take half as long to read. *Reading the entire thread before posting should be a prerequisite.* What a good read with hopefully a happy ending but its a long shot. I agree completely with TAPS, USNarcher and most of the others. There should be an understanding that not all of us here worried about shooting broadheads and hitting pie plates the size of vitals right now. Some of us are 100% focused on groupings, x's and 10's.
> 
> Shaft centered on shelf - check
> Torque at full draw - check
> ...


Nice post. :clap:

See Craig we care and are constructive. Please pick up the phone and let us know you care.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Nice post. :clap:
> 
> See Craig we care and are constructive. Please pick up the phone and let us know you care.


I concur...It would be nice if people would read the WHOLE thread before rusing in with something we have ruled out on page one! 

Gunna be shooting the Sentinal tonight with a Field PRO so hopefully I can get some constructive criticism if indeed it IS a form problem (I know it isn't but just showing I will always have an open mind)

I have seen quite a few mention the (weaker than usual) fix. PLEASE be careful with this! The Captain and Sentinal hold QUITE a bit of energy and that HAS to go somewhere! Anyone that says "The Captain likes a weak arrow) obviously hasn't studied the physics of archery and how this all fits together! When a bow produces 320 f/s IBO I dont care if it is with a SUPER DUPER hard cam, or a round wheel they BOTH deliver the same energy to the arrow to result at that speed so they should also require the same spine!
Just be careful that you don't go over board and get too weak.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

TAP said:


> Just be careful that you don't go over board and get too weak.


Understood all too well... Couldn't figure out why everything went all to crap right before IBO @ Erie last weekend. I ended up junking my Lightspeed 500's. They were still intact except they were breaking in the fibers. You could bend 'em but they wobbled when you spun them.

I'm giving A/C/E 470's a try. I shot them for 3D all weekend and field and shot my 2 highest scores with the Sentinel. Still even with a 313 on an easier 3D course, I had a 5 with no excuse as to why. The 20 x's helped to make up for it but still...


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Hey Tony shoot me a PM after your lesson tonight giving me the scoop.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Looks cool and I thought about the same. But you will lose poundage and have a very high letoff. I found this with the Commander and the LT. But it was easy to get back with a few twists of the cables. The roller guard puts a lot of pre load on the limbs.
> 
> Hey Bob. I had my tail cropped so I don't chase it no mo. :darkbeer: But I may have a tiger by the tail. :shade: You gonna be at the safari or do you have bigger plans?


 I shot the bow last night after I got it all done and it lost about 5 pounds. I didn't notice any more let off but I did notice that there is now no "hump" at all in the last part of the draw cycle.. Smooth like the original Allegiance and Tribute!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

jcmorgan31 said:


> LOL. I would think it would at least identify the problem as either bow design or shooter. If it is shooter related, then there may not be a fix. It may just be a very form criticle design. If it is in the bow's design, then that would be something to pursue.


 A Hooter Shooter "holds" a bow's grip at a 90 degree angle to the force applied to the string. A human hand places more force on the left side of the grip (on a right handed bow. Than makes the riser want to torque to the right along with the forces the roller guard is applying.

TAP, try taking the left sideplate off your bow (if you're right handed) and shoot it.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> I shot the bow last night after I got it all done and it lost about 5 pounds.


Would it be of any benefit to your "new" cable rod to be carbon with more flex to it at full draw?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Bobmuley said:


> Would it be of any benefit to your "new" cable rod to be carbon with more flex to it at full draw?


 The rod I turned is 6061 aluminum but I think the carbon rods flex even less. At full draw I can see it bend inward and there's about 3/8" between the arrow shaft and the cables.


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

With the cable guard in place instead of the roller guard does the arrow still point to the left across the shelf at full draw?


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> A Hooter Shooter "holds" a bow's grip at a 90 degree angle to the force applied to the string. A human hand places more force on the left side of the grip (on a right handed bow. Than makes the riser want to torque to the right along with the forces the roller guard is applying.
> 
> TAP, try taking the left sideplate off your bow (if you're right handed) and shoot it.


I know what a hooter shooter does. However, if you stack a group of arrows at 60-70 yards with one, then it becomes apparent that the problem is in the human influence on the shot. Some are suggesting it is riser flex or other design issues which may make it less forgiving, but are not the root cause.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> The rod I turned is 6061 aluminum but I think the carbon rods flex even less. At full draw I can see it bend inward and there's about 3/8" between the arrow shaft and the cables.


The only comparisons I've done on my bows were between stock steel and aluminum (I'm guessing stiffer than 6061) to carbon rods and the carbons were better at flexing.

Do you think that the flex allows for straighter (horizontally) nock travel?


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## Mr. Burns (Apr 21, 2008)

the problem is the shooter!! nothing more nothing less!!


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Mr. Burns said:


> the problem is the shooter!! nothing more nothing less!!


It's final then......Tony you suck. :bartstush::icon_1_lol:


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

jcmorgan31 said:


> I know what a hooter shooter does. However, if you stack a group of arrows at 60-70 yards with one, then it becomes apparent that the problem is in the human influence on the shot. Some are suggesting it is riser flex or other design issues which may make it less forgiving, but are not the root cause.


Well you see a Hooter Shooter can shoot the same arrow in the same hole out of ANY bow! That's what shooting machines do.

An Archer can shoot the same arrow only as accurately as the bow will allow them to make forgiving.

What I am experiencing is very new territory to me. I have YET to own a bow that I was not able to bare shaft tune. (Why worry about bare shaft you ask?) I worry about bare shaft because I know from over 30 years of shooting that once you can have a bare shaft and fletched shaft impact the same point, you have created BY FAR the most forgiving setup in THAT Bow/Arrow combination that can be achieved! 

The Captain and Sentinal do not Bare Shaft tune! simple as that! It doesn't matter what we have done (USNarcher and others) the bow simply will not allow us to tune it. This makes the bow inherently LESS FORGIVING than we KNOW a bow can be and it is showing in the scores!

I am quite certain myself as well as others that have tried and failed know about grip, riser torque, Spine, the list goes on. The fact of the matter as well as the intent of this WHOLE THREAD was to get to the bottom of why this bow will NOT bare shaft tune.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Bobmuley said:


> The only comparisons I've done on my bows were between stock steel and aluminum (I'm guessing stiffer than 6061) to carbon rods and the carbons were better at flexing.
> 
> Do you think that the flex allows for straighter (horizontally) nock travel?


 I believe it will.


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## Mr. Burns (Apr 21, 2008)

-bowfreak- said:


> No offense but, I think it has been stated that many shooters would not notice the difference due to their own personal capabilities or shooting habits. I don't think it is the shooter at all. How many people can do what USNarcher just described he did with his Commander and then the drastic difference with the Captain?
> 
> It ain't the shooter.


i didnt read all of this. way too much to sift through. in all honesty, i am not a very good reader at all. to read a chapter in your normal book takes me atleast a good w hours or better, so i did not read many of the posts


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Well I'm no professional like some of you guys are. I cant shoot 1/2 a mile and hit a fly in the eye or anything like that. I noticed on my Admiral that when I have the ripcord up and the arrow nocked, the bottom of the arrow goes thru the center of the 2 holes. I cant see the top of the holes. I am shooting a gt 5575 at 29" with 100 grain points and a 29" draw at 66#. I have only shot out to 35 of my steps (long legs) but the bow shoots as well as I can shoot it. The arrows fly absolutely perfect. Just thought I would give my setup so ya'll could run it thru your computer systems. Hope it helps.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

I didn't see any references to this...

Is it possible that it's a factory assembly mistake? IE wrong cable on the right roller..er..right cable on the wrong roller..er..who's on first?

For the guys that are having good luck with tuning, which roller is each of the buss cables installed on?

Is there a way to reverse the cable/roller orientation to see if it has an effect on torque at full draw and lean?


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## KID INGY (Dec 21, 2008)

been having the same problem with my captain in fact wouldnt hold steady at all. shot my 101 at erie and won the mbr class. I ran into bernie(former student) suggested the captain is very top heavy so i bought a set of the control freak stabilizers light rod out front most of the weight behind the bow. very pleased bow levels fast and for once is HOLDING. ive shot my best groups in the last two nights. I havent shot it through paper yet


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

KID INGY said:


> been having the same problem with my captain in fact wouldnt hold steady at all. shot my 101 at erie and won the mbr class. I ran into bernie(former student) suggested the captain is very top heavy so i bought a set of the control freak stabilizers light rod out front most of the weight behind the bow. very pleased bow levels fast and for once is HOLDING. ive shot my best groups in the last two nights. I havent shot it through paper yet


Sounds very similar to how I'm shooting my Sentinel right now. I have 4 DAWG weights between my 2 rear vbars. My front doinker has no weight on the end. this was mostly to offset the weight of my Sure-Loc sight. When I had weight on the end of my front stab, I had some shooters mention how the stabilizer swayed slightly from left to right.


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## Archer247 (Feb 18, 2008)

*Bow Tech please help*

I am posting because it sounds like bow tech is watching this thread.I am also having the same promblem as TAP. And I am also in egreement as to what TAP and USNarcher are saying throughout this thread. Like I have told both TAP and USNarcher ( IMO ) if this bow could paper tune and bare shaft tune, you would be hard pressed to find a bow that would beat it.
Good luck to all


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## Archer247 (Feb 18, 2008)

The bow I am refering to is the Sentinal.Sorry about that


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

I believe that the main string track on the cams need to move left on a right handed bow. The Captains we have here, the string at rest definately favors the right side of the the center of the riser at rest. Which will be magnified at full draw. Especially with the extreme tension binary cables are under on a roller guard bow.

Also, there is about a 1/16th of an inch of free play on both sides (outside) of the center strut where the limbs attachs, with the limbs only touching the inside of the strut. I believe even the slightest bit of side tension on the riser could easily twist in this area, minutely twisting the riser say a couple degrees between the limbs, which would be hard to see. A measurement of limb seperation at rest, and full draw would prove this. If they widen at full draw...torque. We're also talking about a very small seperation. Remember, where the limbs attach by the limb bolt, this is essentially a pivot. 

Personally, I don't see a fix for this! She'll be a good hunting rig though.


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## hoagie72169 (Feb 26, 2008)

*captain problem*

I have two constitution's and have no problem what so ever with tuning. Got a new Brigadier a couple weeks ago and the the first thing I noticed was that draw string does not line up with the center trough, and when I lined up the arrow with the string, center shot was towards the riser about a 1/8" inch, IMO I think the problem lies with the new design of the cams, seem to be 1/8" inch or so closer to the center of the limb. From what I can tell the riser and limbs on the Brigadier and the Constitution are the same, just a string stop, roller guard and new cam design. I think my problems lies with the cam design.....


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I didn't see any references to this...
> 
> Is it possible that it's a factory assembly mistake? IE wrong cable on the right roller..er..right cable on the wrong roller..er..who's on first?
> 
> ...


PSI-

I thought of that also. IT appears as though it can really only go one way or the cables would rub together and be obvious. 

I got shoot the Sentinal some tonight, not as much as I would have like but some none the less. So far it is tuning and whipping arrows the same as the Captain. Had a watcher so in another (that I value highly)'s opinion I am not doing anything form wise. He also shot the bow and noticed immideiately how the bow torques to the right at draw.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Kelsnore said:


> She'll be a good hunting rig though.


WRONG! This is most of my concern. If it isn't going to bareshaft tune.....it CERTAINLY isn't going tune with a darn with broadheads!


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

i talked to guys at bowtech proshop today and im not sure what they do but they are not the bowtech techs, he told me he hasnt heard much of these issues but i told him i dumped my admiral cause i started to have problems with mine but ofcourse it was fine when i first got it and i couldnt get it back to the beginning for nothing,anyway he told me that the strings running through the roller and run through both sides of cam pulling it and against the roller and its creating more torque,i dumped my admiral and buying the iceman as their isnt 2 strings pulling against each other like the admiral according to the proshop guy at bowtech he said the bow is very picky with torque and guess dont know what to think,


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

To catch all the guys up who say my Captain is fine. For your particular type of shooting and mine for that matter the Captain will more than likely serve you well. But, at this point it isn't in the same target class as other Bowtechs such as the Commander. What USNarcher and TAP are saying is that if you only shoot 30 yards in your back yard you may never notice this problem.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

If there was an adjustable grip that would allow you to change the pressure point, a roller guard wouldn't make the difference it makes,, IMO. If the grip bed was a 1/4 inch farther to the right (when standing behind the bow), it would help to cancel the riser torque. If the grip bed was 1/4 inch to the left torque would be magnified.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

my new admiral would through a bad left tear- shooting an Elite now... I couldn't stand knowing that the bow wasn't right.


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## bigtruckerd (Apr 7, 2006)

I also can not figure my Captain out. It groups great out to 60 except 1-2 arrows out of every six. Always a different one though. IT drives me crazy to watch my arrows fishtail. I keep trying to shoot it, but I always end up picking up my Allegiance and shooting it. Like USNArcher stated I cannot give up even a few points when I feel I did everything right. I give up enough on my own.

I am sure you guys will figure it out for all of us!

It does however have the least amount of hand shock for any bow I have ever shot. Very little noise.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

BOHO said:


> Well I'm no professional like some of you guys are. I cant shoot 1/2 a mile and hit a fly in the eye or anything like that. I noticed on my Admiral that when I have the ripcord up and the arrow nocked, the bottom of the arrow goes thru the center of the 2 holes. I cant see the top of the holes. I am shooting a gt 5575 at 29" with 100 grain points and a 29" draw at 66#. I have only shot out to 35 of my steps (long legs) but the bow shoots as well as I can shoot it. The arrows fly absolutely perfect. Just thought I would give my setup so ya'll could run it thru your computer systems. Hope it helps.


Thank you for the input.



[email protected] said:


> I didn't see any references to this...
> 
> Is it possible that it's a factory assembly mistake? IE wrong cable on the right roller..er..right cable on the wrong roller..er..who's on first?
> 
> ...


That was one of the first things that I tried. I really didn't see a difference either way. Thank you.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

hoagie72169 said:


> I have two constitution's and have no problem what so ever with tuning. Got a new Brigadier a couple weeks ago and the the first thing I noticed was that draw string does not line up with the center trough, and when I lined up the arrow with the string, center shot was towards the riser about a 1/8" inch, IMO I think the problem lies with the new design of the cams, seem to be 1/8" inch or so closer to the center of the limb. From what I can tell the riser and limbs on the Brigadier and the Constitution are the same, just a string stop, roller guard and new cam design. I think my problems lies with the cam design.....


I have found the same thing and agree with your conclusion 100%. My vote was the cam. I wanted to swap out cams with 08's but the axle system for 09 won't allow it and I don't have a machine shop to make one.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I appreciate EVERYONES response to this thread. Eventhough it is not mine. I also thank everyone that has filled my message box with their own concerns. I am a die hard BT fan. Just look at my signature. I can't blame anyone for trying to tune their new bows and giving up to another bow. I really don't want anyone leaving BT but you have to do what suits you.

I also can't ask anyone to accept fixes like tune it to the inside negating arrow clearance with it up against the riser. Or adding 4lbs of weight to stop the torque. Both are not reasonable fixes. It really comes down to....you should be able to take the bow out of the box slap some accessories on it, eyeball the set up and go fine tune. And spend the rest of your valuable time enjoyning your bow.

One thing that I have to really admire is that for the most part there has been no BT bashing from other "fanboys". That is awsome. I encourage anyones positive input for a solution. I also ask anyone willing to post their experiences with their 09 just so those at the factory can see that we really want these bow in our hands on the courses and in the field. The next time my Sentinel gets out will be a trip to the factory on the 3rd of July. Hopefully it will return home with me.:noidea:

By the way I have still not heard from Craig or any of the other designers of these bows.:zip:


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

*Sentinel*

Thank you USNarcher for all the time you've put into the thread and even before this one got started.

If no one else will say it then I guess I'll have to. Without a fix soon, this will be the last Bowtech I'll own. Its inexcusable to spend $800 on a bow that won't tune. I'll tell you that I know BT watches this because I was told to stop posting on AT a few months ago about waiting for my Sentinel to arrive. It didn't take them long to call the shop where I purchased the bow to silence me. Hopefully that same type of tact will come into play to fix this issue.

On the other hand, I'm just glad that I'm not crazy anyone and others are experiencing this.

Have a good day!


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I have read and kept up with this thread fairly close. As I said before, I'm no pro archer like a lot of you guys so I have mostly just been reading and learning. Most of the bows I have owned, I have done just what was stated before. Put on the accessories,go adjust a little here and there to get good flight,set the sights and start shooting. I have also done this with my Admiral. Out to about 30 yards, it will stack em in there pretty good. Will it hit exactly where I'm aiming? No. It will be very close, and it might be me no doubt. If I had a machine to shoot it out of, it might robin hood at 30 yards. I'll never know. I will say that I was all ready to buy another Admiral UNTIL I read this thread. Now I am having second thoughts. I'm actually thinking about getting a Elite or even a :embara:*hoyt*:embara: alphamax. I absolutely love the center pivot design. I think it's one of the greatest things to ever happen in bow design. So dead in the hand and quiet. I was truly amazed at the first one I shot. I'm definately a Bowtech guy myself, but I think I'm gonna hold off for a year or two until they get the kinks worked out. I too can't see paying that kind of money for a bow that's not just about perfect in every way. :embara: If I do get another Bowtech, I'm leaning towards maybe a SWAT or something similar. I might even have to go back in time to a 2007 or a 2008 model. Hopefully I won't have to go "back in time" even more than that to get my moneys worth out of the bow.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

BOHO said:


> I have read and kept up with this thread fairly close. As I said before, I'm no pro archer like a lot of you guys so I have mostly just been reading and learning. Most of the bows I have owned, I have done just what was stated before. Put on the accessories,go adjust a little here and there to get good flight,set the sights and start shooting. I have also done this with my Admiral. Out to about 30 yards, it will stack em in there pretty good. Will it hit exactly where I'm aiming? No. It will be very close, and it might be me no doubt. If I had a machine to shoot it out of, it might robin hood at 30 yards. I'll never know. I will say that I was all ready to buy another Admiral UNTIL I read this thread. Now I am having second thoughts. I'm actually thinking about getting a Elite or even a :embara:*hoyt*:embara: alphamax. I absolutely love the center pivot design. I think it's one of the greatest things to ever happen in bow design. So dead in the hand and quiet. I was truly amazed at the first one I shot. I'm definately a Bowtech guy myself, but I think I'm gonna hold off for a year or two until they get the kinks worked out. I too can't see paying that kind of money for a bow that's not just about perfect in every way. :embara: If I do get another Bowtech, I'm leaning towards maybe a SWAT or something similar. I might even have to go back in time to a 2007 or a 2008 model. Hopefully I won't have to go "back in time" even more than that to get my moneys worth out of the bow.


Want to sell that Admiral?   I might as well own ALL of them! LOL! I have a BowTech collection as well, and I am certainly not going to jump ship just yet. This problem will get figured out with the collective efforts of all of us whom WANT to shoot these marvels of engineering.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

TAP said:


> Want to sell that Admiral?   I might as well own ALL of them! LOL! I have a BowTech collection as well, and I am certainly not going to jump ship just yet. This problem will get figured out with the collective efforts of all of us whom WANT to shoot these marvels of engineering.


haha hey pro tech dude! LOL heck no I dont want to sell it! lol as much as I'm learning about bows these days, maybe even I can get it to shooting nocks at 30 yards before long. I will hold off on a Captain though. :embara: I was gonna get one in 60# but I'm gonna hold off awhile. I will keep an eye on this thru subscription. I doubt I will come up with any ideas as I am new to the tech part of bow set up but if I think of something I'll post up. I do have a PHD in *******.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

oh, forgot the subscription. :embara:


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

maybe bowtech needs to look into different stiffness limbs on the left vs right sides of the bow, like PSE has been doing with their split limbs. Wonder if it would make a difference.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

ats said:


> maybe bowtech needs to look into different stiffness limbs on the left vs right sides of the bow, like PSE has been doing with their split limbs. Wonder if it would make a difference.


We aren't experiencing any cam lean so this isn't the issue. Adding it now would 'compound' the issue. (no pun intended)


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I just had a thought. Amazing I know. lol What bows are these things mostly happening with? Captain and Sentinel I know. What about the Iceman? General? Admiral? Guardian? Any others?


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

Y'know, now that I think of it, my Reezen 6.5 has the same riser torque issue as the Captain, but not the inconsistency of the center strut design. The Reezen is one of the tightest grouping bows I have ever shot.... My only target at home is 77yards from my garage where I shoot. My best group with this bow is 8 out of 11 in an aluminum can. (I like to be able to hear the shot...sure can't see it at 80 - lol) And the misses, are just barely misses...no unexplainables. When a bow shoots like this...I don't care if I can see the front of the riser at full draw, or read Easton all the way to the target. As long as the arrow is in the target.

I had the Guardian, and that was a wonderful shooting bow, but you had to SOOOOOOO stay on top of your mental game to shoot consistent with this bow. Roughly every 6th - 8th shot would would wander off of target. Other than that...that bow was fun. It tuned inside of center, but threw broaheads fine. 

I believe the Captains issue lies in the contact area between the strut and limbs. Take it for what its worth...I've only been in the Biz for 13 years. lol


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

BOHO said:


> I just had a thought. Amazing I know. lol What bows are these things mostly happening with? Captain and Sentinel I know. What about the Iceman? General? Admiral? Guardian? Any others?


Admiral- not too bad
Captain- Noticable
Sentinel- Very noticable
Brigadier- Noticable


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

USNarcher said:


> Admiral- not too bad
> Captain- Noticable
> Sentinel- Very noticable
> Brigadier- Noticable


thx USNarcher.  I wonder how the Iceman,General and Guardian fit in there. I wonder if the risers are different if they dont have this issue? I do know the center pivot is set up different this year. Was it a better style last year and they should have left it alone? The Admiral is the only center pivot bow I have owned and have just shot a few others a couple times. I have thought about getting a General but I know they had some limb issues and I dont want to get caught up in that. :zip:


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## Bowfinger (May 24, 2002)

suscribing to this thread to see what develops. I have a Brigadeer that I have added the v bars and weight to that has help a ton. To all of those thinking it is in the center pivot it is not. The Brig is not center pivot. I do believe that it is partially to do with the center shot and the design of the cam however I have it in check with the v bars so I quit tinkering with it until the outdoor season is over. Then i will play with it to see if I can make it run better. By then there should be a fix by either a fourm member or BT.

>>>--------------->Bowfinger


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

I bought a Captain when it first came out and the arrows flew like crap. Sold it within a month and never looked back.


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

bigtruckerd said:


> I also can not figure my Captain out. It groups great out to 60 except 1-2 arrows out of every six. Always a different one though. IT drives me crazy to watch my arrows fishtail. .



My experience exactly. I would even mark my arrows and it was always different to which ones were fliers. Went back to Elite and the problem was gone. I had general at the time and I shot that lights out. I bought the Captain during deer season and did not trust it enought to take her out in the woods due to the arrow flight. And yes I had it setup right (well the tuner did, he did it twice) Still like BT though.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

bowpro34 said:


> Thank you USNarcher for all the time you've put into the thread and even before this one got started.
> 
> If no one else will say it then I guess I'll have to. Without a fix soon, this will be the last Bowtech I'll own. Its inexcusable to spend $800 on a bow that won't tune. I'll tell you that I know BT watches this because I was told to stop posting on AT a few months ago about waiting for my Sentinel to arrive. It didn't take them long to call the shop where I purchased the bow to silence me. Hopefully that same type of tact will come into play to fix this issue.
> 
> ...


Well said!!!! My Sentinel is the first Bowtech I have owed. I am impressed with the build, finish, and especially the way it feels, but there must be a response and fix from Bowtech regarding the inability to tune the bow to shoot an arrow straight or this will be my last BT.:sad:
I have provided a link to this thread all my archery friends. There are many many people waiting for an outcome.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

just shot 100 arrows through my sentinel....my arrow points left at full draw, i set the rest using the walk back method..but at farther distances it sprays to much to trust the method..i dont have that much more room with my limbdriver to the right...where do you all have your rest set at? another thing i played with was taking the 10 oz. weight off my b-stinger and shooting with just the rod. helped with the lean to right at full draw, but i go all over the target after shooting so long with the weight...running out of options hhhheeeeeelllllppppppp....


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

For what it's worth. My 82nd had that distinct torqueing of the riser to the right(It grouped very well though) but my Captain didn't. I shot some groups with the Captain out to 80 yards and was very impressed with the shootability and quietness of that bow. My buddy is a top level MBO shooter who is shooting the Sentinel better then any other bow he has shot and is not experiencing the torgueing sensation or occasional flyer. Tony I would try what Frank suggested and swap the limbs side to side.


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## bartl17 (Jun 27, 2007)

I have been struggling with my Captain since December. Same issues. Will not paper tune, rest is right of center, likes weak spined arrows, arrows fishtail, arrow points to the left at full draw, not forgiving of a poor release, etc. Despite all of that I still like the bow. It is quiet and virtually shock free. And, nine out of ten arrows group well, but that tenth shot is the one that worries me. Thanks, TAP for the post, at least now I know the problem is probably with the bow not the shooter. Hopefully it can be resolved, but I am starting to have my doubts.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Bowtechie said:


> For what it's worth. My 82nd had that distinct torqueing of the riser to the right(It grouped very well though) but my Captain didn't. I shot some groups with the Captain out to 80 yards and was very impressed with the shootability and quietness of that bow. My buddy is a top level MBO shooter who is shooting the Sentinel better then any other bow he has shot and is not experiencing the torgueing sensation or occasional flyer. Tony I would try what Frank suggested and swap the limbs side to side.


At what level is he at the top? Is he shooting the IBO circuit or local stuff? Not doubting his ability at all. I think it is great that he is having success with his bow.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Bowtechie said:


> For what it's worth. My 82nd had that distinct torqueing of the riser to the right(It grouped very well though) but my Captain didn't. I shot some groups with the Captain out to 80 yards and was very impressed with the shootability and quietness of that bow. My buddy is a top level MBO shooter who is shooting the Sentinel better then any other bow he has shot and is not experiencing the torgueing sensation or occasional flyer. Tony I would try what Frank suggested and swap the limbs side to side.


Who is your buddy? I am interested in talking with him. I just got back from the shop trying to setup the new Sentinal and it aint good news!


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

How does the bow shoot a bunch of arrows perfectly fine and then the occasional flyer? What's the bow doing differently to produce the flyer that it isn't doing on all the other shots? If it's a design issue, wouldn't it shoot like crap all the time? Like I said earlier in the post, I'm concerned like everyone else because I have a Captain coming and it should be at my door this Friday.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

goldtip22 said:


> how does the bow shoot a bunch of arrows perfectly fine and then the occasional flyer? What's the bow doing differently to produce the flyer that it isn't doing on all the other shots? If it's a design issue, wouldn't it shoot like crap all the time? Like i said earlier in the post, i'm concerned like everyone else because i have a captain coming and it should be at my door this friday.


*torque*


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

goldtip22 said:


> How does the bow shoot a bunch of arrows perfectly fine and then the occasional flyer? What's the bow doing differently to produce the flyer that it isn't doing on all the other shots? If it's a design issue, wouldn't it shoot like crap all the time? Like I said earlier in the post, I'm concerned like everyone else because I have a Captain coming and it should be at my door this Friday.


That occasional flyer is perhaps a poor explanation. For me it is the horizontal grouping that CAN'T be tuned out. If I shoot a group with the bow at 50 yards they arrows form a horizontal line across the Spot. You never know when the left and the right are going to happen so it can be said it appears like a flyer.

Typically when I bareshaft tune, I am done knowing the bow will shoot the best possible group. Not being able to bareshaft I tried walkback tuning and the best that I can achieve is about a 6-8" horizontal by 3-4 Vertical group. This is what is telling me there is a torque or riser issue that is making the bow un-tuneable.


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

TAP said:


> Who is your buddy? I am interested in talking with him. I just got back from the shop trying to setup the new Sentinal and it aint good news!


So what's the news? Anything new?


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

goldtip22 said:


> How does the bow shoot a bunch of arrows perfectly fine and then the occasional flyer? What's the bow doing differently to produce the flyer that it isn't doing on all the other shots? If it's a design issue, wouldn't it shoot like crap all the time? Like I said earlier in the post, I'm concerned like everyone else because I have a Captain coming and it should be at my door this Friday.


I think everyone here is in agreement that the problem is in that the design is extremely critical of very small form inconsistencies. By itself.....say shooting out of a machine....the bow will stack arrows. However, when the human touch is added it becomes so critical of form errors that it is nearly impossible to shoot good groups at further distances....even for those with very good shot mechanics.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Not exactly. I have not put it on a Hooter SHooter. But I am betting to get good goups out to say 60-80 the tune on the bow to achieve this would not be acceptable either. Plus I don't think that even in the HS it will come back to the same point everytime. My vote is still on the cam design.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

TAP said:


> Who is your buddy? I am interested in talking with him. I just got back from the shop trying to setup the new Sentinal and it aint good news!


Terry Bridenbaugh Jr. is his name. I'll P.M. you his number. He is a very solid shooter.


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

USNarcher said:


> Not exactly. I have not put it on a Hooter SHooter. But I am betting to get good goups out to say 60-80 the tune on the bow to achieve this would not be acceptable either. Plus I don't think that even in the HS it will come back to the same point everytime. My vote is still on the cam design.


Interesting. So you don't think the bow is repeatable even out of a machine?


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

do the iceman have these issues? anybody chime in please


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

deerwhackmaster said:


> do the iceman have these issues? anybody chime in please


I think earlier USNarcher said couldnt really tell the difference on a short ata bow. Him or somebody said it. Man this is a long thread. lol


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

maybe ill buy a guardian instead of iceman,do they have these issues?


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

Man, Bowtech really needs to check their deisgns over a lot more. I loved all my BT's except the Captain, but these issues are not acceptable. I mean other bows have problems but these problems from BT are HUGE Problems costing people a lot of money and time.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

A buddy just bought an admiral yesterday. He paper tuned it. It is shooting bullet holes in paper, but the centershot ended up being left of center (rh bow). I guess if he set up up in the center, it when then be pointing off to the left at full draw just like your bow TAP. Anyway...its shooting great groups, but did tune with centershot being to the left. Its a little weird when you look behind the bow and line up a nocked arrow with the string, then look at the relation to the sight. At rest you would thing the sights windage is WAY off....but at full draw it all lines up. I could not see any visable lean on the top cam (which shocked me) and only minimal on the bottom. I remember my guardian having a little cam lean on top an bottom, but very minimal. It was also center tracking cams so I wonder what they changed on the new center pivots to eliminate the cam lean....and if that could be a contributing factor.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

usnarcher said:


> *torque*


 from the roller guard


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## Wild Bill 71 (Dec 4, 2004)

My Sentinel tuned just fine and shoots great. Any issues I have shooting groups, I know exactly which arrow, and which shot it was, because I didn't execute properly. There may be some problems out there with some bows, but I have to believe the majority is behind it, not the bow itself. The bow is a machine, it will do the same thing each time. IMO

Bill


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## Archer247 (Feb 18, 2008)

O.K. this thread and my sentinal is really fustrating. It seems pretty obvious that there is something more wrong with the bow than with the shooter. I mean if a guy like USNarcher can't get a reply, whats that say about Bow Tech.It's just that I am looking at this from a business stand point. I think it's time for Bow Tech to man up and let there customers no that there aware of the problem and that there adressing it. I don't think that it is wright to keep telling the consumer to change your hand grip, or the spine of the arrow or what ever else. It would be like buying a $900.00 cam corder and finding out that the audio was'nt working well,and then company you bought from told you to hold it closer to your ear or turn up the volume. It's just that I spent good hard earned money for my bow and I want Bow Tech to stand behind there product.I hope you guys don't blame me for being aggrivated and thanks for letting me vent.
P.S. this is not a bashing just a fustrated cosumer/customer.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

Wild Bill 71 said:


> My Sentinel tuned just fine and shoots great. Any issues I have shooting groups, I know exactly which arrow, and which shot it was, because I didn't execute properly. There may be some problems out there with some bows, but I have to believe the majority is behind it, not the bow itself. The bow is a machine, it will do the same thing each time. IMO
> 
> Bill



Yes, but we are discussing the bow being extremely unforgiving when it comes to torque. I can torque the crap out of my Equalizer and it diesn't show much at the target but with my Captain any minor amount of torque, and by minor I mean pro shooters wouldn't even notice it, the arrow goes left or right. I love how it feels but if it won't group like it should I'm not keeping it. 

Right now I'm saving my $ to get a Commander and will be trying to sell my Captain. Don't know how that's going to go with everyone seeing this thread though, so I might be stuck with it.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

do guardian have any issues like this?


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

deerwhackmaster said:


> do guardian have any issues like this?


No.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm going to go shoot some 70 yard groups at the range tonight and post some pics for Bowtech to look at. Groups are not supposed to be in a horizontal line.


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## Wild Bill 71 (Dec 4, 2004)

Jared, all I can say is I shoot this bow better than I shoot my Razor Mag. Which if you look at the specs, the Razor should be much more forgiving. I love my Sentinel.

Bill


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## Wild Bill 71 (Dec 4, 2004)

My long range groups- 50+ are in a square pattern roughly 2"x2". If I have an odd one its usually low because I dropped my arm.

Bill


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

Wild Bill 71 said:


> Jared, all I can say is I shoot this bow better than I shoot my Razor Mag. Which if you look at the specs, the Razor should be much more forgiving. I love my Sentinel.
> 
> Bill



I do love my Captain, but I hate how it torques. If I take off my 30" stabilizer the pin bounces side to side, not around as it should. Not as noticable with the stabilizer on it but it's still there.


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## timbo2 (Apr 22, 2006)

I've given up on tuning my Sentinel adn have gone back to my Constitution. I call asking for help, but get no return calls. Kinda frustrating. I love Bowtech bows, but this is rediculous. If there is a fix let me know, Heck I'd even pay for parts if I had to.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

ttt!!!!!


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

there is a easy solution to the prob,dump it,thats what i did with the admiral ,first bowtech could be my last


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Oh, you'll LOVE this one......

Spent some quality time with the Sentinal tonight. I actually got it to paper tune! so far only at about 12 yards, but it DOES seem to react to moving the rest and all the usual things.

Ok.....so now it gets good! My Captain and Sentinal are the same draw length and draw weight. Being the author of TAP I figured hmmmm......I'll try the arrows I am shooting in the Sentinal In the Captain.....(the Captain shoots bare shafts almost SIDEWAYS into the bale) Same CRAP.....

So at the end of today, I have a Sentinal that seems as though it night tuneable, and a Captain that no matter WHAT I do will NOT tune.....

I am at the screw it point. I had some correspondence with Bowtech today and it appears as though they are digging in there heals and are going to say there is nothing wrong with these bows. 

Anyone want to buy my BowTech Collection? I have 6 of them:
Commander 2007, 82nd 2008, 101st 2008, Captain 2009, Sentinal 2009, and Allegiance 2006. $3200 takes them all!


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

I am so Glad this thread came out. I thought I just had a lemon, so I never made a thread on here last October. I did PM a few people and no one knew what to do. I feel sorry for the average archer who buys an expensive bow and has no idea what to do or where to turn. I bought mine in OH when I made a trip back home and my dad went on the 3 hr drive to pick it up and he saw my face of dissapointment when I started shooting it that week. Thank GOD i keep 2 bows. BT please get your problems under control.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

they are not going to admit to a huge problem like this ,and a big problem its becoming,like i said the ad was my first bowtech and i dumped it ,it could very well be my last ,although the iceman seems like it tunes easy,basically bowtech sticking to their guns like carbon express is with thier crappy nocks,then had nerve to tell me to buy easton unibushings and nocks,so i bought easton arrows,companies that dont wanna listen to thier customers dont deserve business


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

Disappointing that BT(Savage) chooses not to address(or admit) that any problem exists.

Hopefully the "silence is golden" principal backfires and silence becomes costly.I know at this point I would not consider buying another BT.

I am not sure what I will do with my Sentinel, but the arrow laying crosswise across the rest everytime I draw the bow IS bothering me.

Guess I better remove the Sentinel picture as my avatar.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

Camera was out of battery but still the same thing tonight. Even though I wasn't shooting as well as I usually do at 70 yards there was definately more of a horizontal spread than vertical.

So what to do?

Well, I'm a 14 year old kid who doesn't have money to spare. Bought my Captain in Testarossa for $1200 CAD. Now that everyone on AT has seen this thread, no one will be wanting a Captain so I don't know if I'll even bother putting it in the classifields. :angry:

I will no longer buy a Bowtech until it has been proven tunable, and forgiving.

What's next? A Commander? I don't know if I want to chance it. 

Hoyts look really nice, but their target bows cost too many $$$$.

PSE? Bowmanddness XL maybe.

Mathews? Don't know if I could shoot one with that slab of wood for a grip, but maybe if I swapped it out for a Torqueless.





Bowtech- you need to make some drastic changes to get back on track. That's two years now with major design problems.


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## Dman23 (Jul 2, 2005)

wow this thread has gone from confused to forget bowtech fast! I really hope they get this all figured out. these models are the first I have ever really liked from BT (I've never owned one but this year I would have been open to one) so its a shame to see this happen. Hopefully they will at some point get it taken care of. I know I sure would be frustrated this makes my string issue with my high country seam like nothing! when you buy a bow that expensive most people don't have money to just sell it at a loss and buy a new one for a grand. 

good luck to all of you!


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=942938

Have you seen this??? Could this be a fix???


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

pokeyl said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=942938
> 
> Have you seen this??? Could this be a fix???


I don't think so. As others have stated I think it might be the relation of the cams to the riser(the grip specifically). The roller guard might be making it worse though.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

What does cracker have to say about this?


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2009)

WEATHERBY460 said:


> What does cracker have to say about this?


Im sure he has read this and is declining to get involved.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Jaben620 said:


> Im sure he has read this and is declining to get involved.


I havent seen a post from him about this. I would like to know if he has had the same issues though, just for comparisons sake.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

I guarentee he knows about it and knows why.....i am guessing he will not respond because it will hurt his sales on selling them.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

TAP said:


> I actually got it to paper tune! so far only at about 12 yards, but it DOES seem to react to moving the rest and all the usual things.


Ok I reread your posts TAP from start to finish...so please excuse me if I missed something. I assumed when you said you were bare shaft tuning and walkback tuning that you were moving the center shot and nock height while doing so. But from the above post it sounds like you have just now moved the rest?
Im sure I have missed something...but there are a lot of bows that dont tune right down the center of the shelf regardless of using a laser, paper, walk back....or any other method. I still understand the concern of why it would no tune down the center if there is NO cam lean....but even if centershot ends up being waaay outside or inside and it still shoots good then that were I leave mine. Where is center shot on your 82nd. Ive yet to see an 82nd without a ton of cam lean which generally results in centershot being closer to the riser.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

poole said:


> Ok I reread your posts TAP from start to finish...so please excuse me if I missed something. I assumed when you said you were bare shaft tuning and walkback tuning that you were moving the center shot and nock height while doing so. But from the above post it sounds like you have just now moved the rest?
> Im sure I have missed something...but there are a lot of bows that dont tune right down the center of the shelf regardless of using a laser, paper, walk back....or any other method. I still understand the concern of why it would no tune down the center if there is NO cam lean....but even if centershot ends up being waaay outside or inside and it still shoots good then that were I leave mine. Where is center shot on your 82nd. Ive yet to see an 82nd without a ton of cam lean which generally results in centershot being closer to the riser.


I could show you mine. I have very little cam lean and tunes down the center
or very slightly inside depending on the spine of the arrow I'm shooting.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

WEATHERBY460 said:


> What does cracker have to say about this?


I haven't talked to him about it. I did tell him about it in February and asked for his input. I would never speak for someone......unless asked to......but I am betting there is a very good reason that someone with as much knowlege as Crackers about tuning bows has not offered anything to us. Silence can say more than a thousand posts.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

highwaynorth said:


> I could show you mine. I have very little cam lean and tunes down the center
> or very slightly inside depending on the spine of the arrow I'm shooting.


 My point is centershot is not always right down the middle of the trough for every bow/shooter combo. I have seen the same bow paper tune differently for different shooters. Many manufactures will tell you an approx centershot that is often not in the center. So if the bow shoots bad with the centershot in center....and centershot is set to center just because its where you "think" it should be than???

But....waiting to hear from TAP....i could have mis-interpreted something while reading his posts. I guess the question is how does the bow perform for him with center shot being at different positions...or has all the testing been done assuming that centershot has to be down the middle...no questions asked.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

TAP said:


> Oh, you'll LOVE this one......
> 
> Spent some quality time with the Sentinal tonight. I actually got it to paper tune! so far only at about 12 yards, but it DOES seem to react to moving the rest and all the usual things.
> 
> ...


 I was just wondering, have you had any of these problems from your other
bows or just the captain and sentinal?


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

poole said:


> My point is centershot is not always right down the middle of the trough for every bow/shooter combo. I have seen the same bow paper tune differently for different shooters. Many manufactures will tell you an approx centershot that is often not in the center. So if the bow shoots bad with the centershot in center....and centershot is set to center just because its where you "think" it should be than???
> 
> But....waiting to hear from TAP....i could have mis-interpreted something while reading his posts. I guess the question is how does the bow perform for him with center shot being at different positions...or has all the testing been done assuming that centershot has to be down the middle...no questions asked.


Let me answer this. And I am positive that Tony has done similar. As for paper who cares if it shoots a bullet whole ( know that Tony does) but really the absolute result is that it hits the X at whatever distance everytime. I did move my rest through out the entire adjustability range of the rest to see where the bow wants it. 

Paper tuning, fairly good hole take it out on the flats arrow can't find target.

Walk back tune. Took a lot of arrows but ran the average and went with that. Making some great shots hitting the X. But at a minimum of 30% of the time arrows go left/right. Now is when you say it is the shooters issue then. Wrong. Why, because like stated you can apply pressure so minute that you don't even know you are doing it and you miss.

I really wish everyone would get off the tuning. Because in order to tune this bow you would have to do it in 3 parts. Static, at full draw and in the middle of the release cycle. Because there are major factors going on at each of these point in time.

Now wouldn't the point of designing a CENTER TRACK cam be that everything will go right down the center? Why would you design a bow that has a center track system and have it tune off center. Unless that wasn't the intent. And no matter where you set the rest when you draw back your arrow will move on the horizontal plane. Now I am no PRO shooter but I am betting that is you put one of these bows in say Dave or Rio's hands. They would not even shoot the arrow. Because when you watch the arrow move as you draw you are convinced that it isn't going to go straight.

These are just my findings.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> Let me answer this. And I am positive that Tony has done similar. As for paper who cares if it shoots a bullet whole ( know that Tony does) but really the absolute result is that it hits the X at whatever distance everytime. I did move my rest through out the entire adjustability range of the rest to see where the bow wants it.
> 
> Paper tuning, fairly good hole take it out on the flats arrow can't find target.
> 
> ...


Ok everybody that is talking about tuning please find another thread as we dont want to contribute our thoughts to this one. I was simply asking a question regarding the tuning.

As far as center trac cams and cam lean, If I recall the first center pivots that I saw had a tiny amount of lean, but did have some. In a perfect world no bow would have cam lean and everything would tune perfectly down the center. So far the only bows I have seen that do this on a consistent basis are shoot through type systems. So yes I would say the goal of the CENTER TRAC would be to eliminate cam lean....but that does not mean that it worked. I have to say that new center pivots dont appear to have much if any which is impressive...but the first generation center pivots that I have shot did have some visible cam lean although it was minimal. So was the goal to REDUCE the cam lean or ELIMINATE it. 

My point is this.....to buy a bow and set centershot in the center just because thats where you feel it should be and not try to tune it any other way makes not sense to me. If you feel it should be perfectly i the center because the DESIGN says so...and its not...then throw it away...does not matter to me. My guardians did not tune down the center for me(although close), but shot fantastic. Should I have set the center shot down the center if it shot worse just to say i did?

I understand there may be other issuses, but i was just asking a simple question regarding his center shot. From the way I read the post it appeared as though he had not even moved the rest until page 8 of the thread, hence the question I asked. So even if he did not, sounds like you did. Thanks for answering...enjoy your thread.

BTW I just use paper as a start, then I walk back tune and group tune. I also dont care about bullet holes.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

ok.....Many posts directed to me and the simple answer is that I have tried every possible rest position through its range of motion and it doesn't bare shaft....the arrows hit the bale almost sideways! This is completely unaceptible for a bow that costs $800!

The Sentinal seems as though it might tune (so far at only 12 yards it is reacting to adjustments) the Captain no matter where the rest is, what spine and arrow combination I try it whips the back of the arrow SEVERELY left...!!! aluminum arrows actually BEND when they hit the bale! I have broken TWO expensive carbon arrows also trying to get the Captain to shoot a bare-shaft.

I can take Any Hoyt, Mathews off the shelf at the shop and use the SAME arrows I am using now and the arrow sticks in the target straight un-fletched. The Captain will have no part of this excersize anymore.

As for paper tuning.....I HATE paper tuning and I do not do it myself. Bareshaft in my opinion is the only way to tune properly. I have been doing it for more years than many of the posters on here are old! LOL!

The intent of this post from the get-go was to find the magic tuning information for the Captain to get it bareshaft. It appears as though it isn't going to happen. 

The 82nd, and 101st were only setup and never really shot. I didnt care for them and my Allegiance was the ticket. I am STILL shooting my 2006 Allegiance as it is BY FAR the best shooting machine I have owned to date. It was easy to setup, Tune and it just simply is a tack driver.

I wanted something new this year again so I bought the Captain with the hopes of it being as good as the Allegiance and quite frankly in comparison it turned out to be a piece of trash. The Sentinal like I have said is at aleast responding to common everyday tuning practice.


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## electric sheep (Mar 23, 2009)

It seems to be bottom cam lean that causes the severe left flick and if its bad it is near impossible to tune. I had a bow with this issue and tried every point weight and across three spines of shaft at varies combo's off DW. Nothing worked except to shoot very stiff and have perfect perfect and again i stress perfect form. The bow did the same pointing the arrow left. Nothing ruins the day more than shooting an un tunable bow.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

poole said:


> Ok everybody that is talking about tuning please find another thread as we dont want to contribute our thoughts to this one. I was simply asking a question regarding the tuning.
> 
> As far as center trac cams and cam lean, If I recall the first center pivots that I saw had a tiny amount of lean, but did have some. In a perfect world no bow would have cam lean and everything would tune perfectly down the center. So far the only bows I have seen that do this on a consistent basis are shoot through type systems. So yes I would say the goal of the CENTER TRAC would be to eliminate cam lean....but that does not mean that it worked. I have to say that new center pivots dont appear to have much if any which is impressive...but the first generation center pivots that I have shot did have some visible cam lean although it was minimal. So was the goal to REDUCE the cam lean or ELIMINATE it.
> 
> ...



poole, don't take it personal. I am not attacking you or anyone else, especially BT. I just want a "reasonable" answer. And I personally don't think that this is a "tuning" issue. If it was I could find it. But it "seems" to be something else. I perfected a shoot through system for the Commander and that bow made it easy for me to figure out how to retune it. And it is the best most forgiving and accurate bow that I have ever shot.

I don't want to see anyone even talk about leaving Bowtech for other companies. I believe in them, they make great bows. But maybe just maybe they designed something into these that just doesn't work. I have aked them to take my bow and tune it at the factory to their specifications and let me shoot it after that. If it shoots the way they say it will I will tell the world that it is fixed shoots like a champ, share the fix with everyone and live happily ever after.

So please don't abandon this and yes all suggestions are welcome. I just wanted you to know that I have tried everything that I know of to make this a great x killer. This thread has been a great thread, no bashing, no smart ***** just shooters wanting to get their bow shooting.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

i am deeply dissapointed in bt...i bought my sentinel at the factory while there on vacation..i had planed to start shooting fita and to my experience a longer ata is more forgiving and at long ranges the sentinel seemed like the best choice. you all know now that i was wrong and this bow you can write off at long distance.so what now? i had saved a while to buy this bow and know i´m stuck with it!. bowtech step up and give us all the awnser we need to shoot this damn thing...


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> poole, don't take it personal. I am not attacking you or anyone else, especially BT. I just want a "reasonable" answer. And I personally don't think that this is a "tuning" issue. If it was I could find it. But it "seems" to be something else. I perfected a shoot through system for the Commander and that bow made it easy for me to figure out how to retune it. And it is the best most forgiving and accurate bow that I have ever shot.
> 
> I don't want to see anyone even talk about leaving Bowtech for other companies. I believe in them, they make great bows. But maybe just maybe they designed something into these that just doesn't work. I have aked them to take my bow and tune it at the factory to their specifications and let me shoot it after that. If it shoots the way they say it will I will tell the world that it is fixed shoots like a champ, share the fix with everyone and live happily ever after.
> 
> So please don't abandon this and yes all suggestions are welcome. I just wanted you to know that I have tried everything that I know of to make this a great x killer. This thread has been a great thread, no bashing, no smart ***** just shooters wanting to get their bow shooting.


USNarcher, thanks for the kind reply...sorry if I seemed on the offensive. When I worked in the IT world it seemed like half the people that asked for help would tell you how to fix it when you got to them. Every now and again I get the same feeling from some threads. 

Here is something that is making the wheels turn in my brain, maybe you can shed some light on the subject. Regardless of cam system, if you still pull the cables to the side, basic physics tell me that something it going to lean. If the cams dont lean, then what did the designer do to stop it? Is one limb stronger than the other? I just wonder if something in the design that tries to eliminate cam lean (other than center trac cams) may be contributing to the problem. The reason I wonder what is different is because I recall seeing more lean in the 1st generation center pivot bows. Since the new generation is also center trac cams, they must have done something a little different with the new design other than the roller guard. My first thought was riser flex if the problem seemed exponentially worse as the bows got longer, but after looking closely at an admiral yesterday, I can imagine a 31" a2a bow with such a stout riser having enough riser flex to cause any problems.

Just wondering if trying to fix one problem (perfect straight cams) has not lead to another. I still think the shoot through systems are the only systems to have mastered that problem.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

TAP said:


> ok.....Many posts directed to me and the simple answer is that I have tried every possible rest position through its range of motion and it doesn't bare shaft....the arrows hit the bale almost sideways! This is completely unaceptible for a bow that costs $800!
> 
> The Sentinal seems as though it might tune (so far at only 12 yards it is reacting to adjustments) the Captain no matter where the rest is, what spine and arrow combination I try it whips the back of the arrow SEVERELY left...!!! aluminum arrows actually BEND when they hit the bale! I have broken TWO expensive carbon arrows also trying to get the Captain to shoot a bare-shaft.
> 
> ...


 Now extemely obvious , your bow is not doing what mine is . I bareshafted and papered out to 20 , and never had anything but the basics going on . it tuned out great , even out to 60 with broadheads.
i am shocked by your bareshafts hitting the bale sideways , or even relatively close to sideways . Thats extreme. 
I am not bagging on you TAP , I believe what your saying, I am just seeing massive amounts of difference in the way our Captains perform. 
I wish I knew enough to advise . 
And dont sell them all man! i feel the frustration , but ...
I guess when i am ready for another one , there will be some left on the shelf!


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

hopefully this dosnt end up like the general last year and start breaking limbs:mg: sorry about the bashing i´m just angry..


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

lost american said:


> hopefully this dosnt end up like the general last year and start breaking limbs:mg: sorry about the bashing i´m just angry..


I dont think anybody can blame you for being angry or anybody else for that matter. Money is tight these days and to get enough together to buy a new bow at the prices they cost takes some effort. The thought that occured to me about all this is that Bowtech has several months to fool with bows and tweak this and that. I would think they paper tune them,bareshaft tune them and anything else they can do to them in their experimental and designing process. If thats the case, why wasnt this found out before thousands of them have been sold? That would have saved a ton of headaches. JMO


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2009)

I had a Captain for a while and had the same problem you guys are having. I didnt blink on what to do. I got rid of it immediatly. I also didnt like the riser design. There isnt going to be a fix for this problem guys. The only solution if you are having this problem is to get rid of the bow and dont buy the 09 CPs. Obviously they are not designed well. Maybe Bowtech should hand out refunds to those experiancing issues that dont seem to be fixable.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

tmo said:


> Now extemely obvious , your bow is not doing what mine is . I bareshafted and papered out to 20 , and never had anything but the basics going on . it tuned out great , even out to 60 with broadheads.
> i am shocked by your bareshafts hitting the bale sideways , or even relatively close to sideways . Thats extreme.
> I am not bagging on you TAP , I believe what your saying, I am just seeing massive amounts of difference in the way our Captains perform.
> I wish I knew enough to advise .
> ...


What is the EXACT specs on your bow and arrow combination?


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## tacker (Jun 13, 2008)

A stupid question from a guy that don't know much about working on bows.I have a captain and I have had problems tuning it also. I started to notice that if I didn't have my hand right the bow would jump to the right. It felt like the the bow would hit the string suppressor and make it jump so I started playing with it. I could move it one way and it would feel like it would almost jump left. Then I tried to get the suppressor off the string a little more than what it was. This seam to have helped a lot. So my question is would this have anything to do with it? Like I said this may be a stupid question.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

BOHO said:


> I dont think anybody can blame you for being angry or anybody else for that matter. Money is tight these days and to get enough together to buy a new bow at the prices they cost takes some effort. The thought that occured to me about all this is that Bowtech has several months to fool with bows and tweak this and that. I would think they paper tune them,bareshaft tune them and anything else they can do to them in their experimental and designing process. If thats the case, why wasnt this found out before thousands of them have been sold? That would have saved a ton of headaches. JMO


Kindof what I wondered about the 08' factory sts.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

What would be really sweet is high speed cameras filming the bow in action from different angles.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Jaben620 said:


> I had a Captain for a while and had the same problem you guys are having. I didnt blink on what to do. I got rid of it immediatly. I also didnt like the riser design. There isnt going to be a fix for this problem guys. The only solution if you are having this problem is to get rid of the bow and dont buy the 09 CPs. Obviously they are not designed well. Maybe Bowtech should hand out refunds to those experiancing issues that dont seem to be fixable.


that would be great but they would go bankrupt if they did that. 1 suggestion would be after they fix the problem is to sell people with the bad bows a new improved version at just over cost. HEY, your supposed to be at work!!!!!


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

poole said:


> Kindof what I wondered about the 08' factory sts.


I had a 82nd I think it was. It was that u shaped suppressor at the roller guard. That thing was horrible. I love the new ones though like on my Admiral. Would be nice if it was adjustable in and out though. Mine is a little farther from the string than I like.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

BOHO said:


> I had a 82nd I think it was. It was that u shaped suppressor at the roller guard. That thing was horrible. I love the new ones though like on my Admiral. Would be nice if it was adjustable in and out though. Mine is a little farther from the string than I like.


What really screwed up a lot of people was were they aligned it. Per bowtech it was suppose to be aligned 1.5 string widths off center left or right depending on lh/rh. This was from the cam lean/lateral nock travel...although they did not exactly say it like that. If that sucker was not perfect you would get some flyers. The bowjax replacement fixed the prob, but kisser button people still had to remove it altogether.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

BOHO said:


> I had a 82nd I think it was. It was that u shaped suppressor at the roller guard. That thing was horrible. I love the new ones though like on my Admiral. Would be nice if it was adjustable in and out though. Mine is a little farther from the string than I like.


Your admiral is adjustable isnt it? I have not adjusted one, but was under the impression that you could adjust it. If im not mistaken my dealer called bt about it. He was afraid to turn/pull to hard...they told him not to worry that it would be fine.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

BOHO thats the same i was just thinking. are there no so called pro´s that have tamed one of these from bowtech? i have been shooting for quit some years now, since back in the day when they had steel cables:mg: and have never had a bow drive me this crazy. but then again i used to be a religious hoyt shooter, this is my first bowtech. i am originaly from oregon and figured it was time to support a company from there. i should have bought a german bow and supported them!


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2009)

BOHO said:


> that would be great but they would go bankrupt if they did that. 1 suggestion would be after they fix the problem is to sell people with the bad bows a new improved version at just over cost. HEY, your supposed to be at work!!!!!




True that. Bowtech needs to jump in and do SOMETHING.

Im off today and tomorrow BTW.:darkbeer:


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

TAP said:


> What is the EXACT specs on your bow and arrow combination?


 60-70 lb Captain, maxed out to 71lbs. Set to #1 on the mod's. Factory strings , factory side plate grip. Ok , all factory, nothing special
Shooting Gt pro hunters, 29". 100 bh's and fp's. 4" Duravanes , 3 fletch, no wraps. I believe they worked out to 414 gr. total . 
For bh's , i tune and set up with 3 blade muzzy's , and hunt with muzzy and 2 blade rage. i have not shot the rage practice tip through it yet.The muzzy's are a b*#@h , especially at 50 + , but they are in 3".


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

poole said:


> USNarcher, thanks for the kind reply...sorry if I seemed on the offensive. When I worked in the IT world it seemed like half the people that asked for help would tell you how to fix it when you got to them. Every now and again I get the same feeling from some threads.
> 
> Here is something that is making the wheels turn in my brain, maybe you can shed some light on the subject. Regardless of cam system, if you still pull the cables to the side, basic physics tell me that something it going to lean. If the cams dont lean, then what did the designer do to stop it? Is one limb stronger than the other? I just wonder if something in the design that tries to eliminate cam lean (other than center trac cams) may be contributing to the problem. The reason I wonder what is different is because I recall seeing more lean in the 1st generation center pivot bows. Since the new generation is also center trac cams, they must have done something a little different with the new design other than the roller guard. My first thought was riser flex if the problem seemed exponentially worse as the bows got longer, but after looking closely at an admiral yesterday, I can imagine a 31" a2a bow with such a stout riser having enough riser flex to cause any problems.
> 
> Just wondering if trying to fix one problem (perfect straight cams) has not lead to another. I still think the shoot through systems are the only systems to have mastered that problem.


Man we are right there on a parallel path. Bows are designed with cam lean and everyone screams because they lean. Who cares as long as the string stays on track and the arrow smashes the X if it leans or not. So if you design a new cam that minimizes this but causes it to torque like no other bow has ever torqued then you designed a flaw. That may be able to be fixed with a little modification. Who knows.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

tmo said:


> 60-70 lb Captain, maxed out to 71lbs. Set to #1 on the mod's. Factory strings , factory side plate grip. Ok , all factory, nothing special
> Shooting Gt pro hunters, 29". 100 bh's and fp's. 4" Duravanes , 3 fletch, no wraps. I believe they worked out to 414 gr. total .
> For bh's , i tune and set up with 3 blade muzzy's , and hunt with muzzy and 2 blade rage. i have not shot the rage practice tip through it yet.The muzzy's are a b*#@h , especially at 50 + , but they are in 3".


He may also be interested in a2a on both sides of your bow and brace height measurement.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

poole said:


> My point is centershot is not always right down the middle of the trough for every bow/shooter combo. I have seen the same bow paper tune differently for different shooters. Many manufactures will tell you an approx centershot that is often not in the center. So if the bow shoots bad with the centershot in center....and centershot is set to center just because its where you "think" it should be than???
> 
> But....waiting to hear from TAP....i could have mis-interpreted something while reading his posts. I guess the question is how does the bow perform for him with center shot being at different positions...or has all the testing been done assuming that centershot has to be down the middle...no questions asked.


I hear what you are saying. I don't set the center shot where I think it needs to be. I let the bow tell me that. Very close to center is just where it happened to be. If I was Tap I would send the bow to Bowtech. When you
have a bow that won't respond to any type of tuning, something is wrong
with the bow.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> Man we are right there on a parallel path. Bows are designed with cam lean and everyone screams because they lean. Who cares as long as the string stays on track and the arrow smashes the X if it leans or not. So if you design a new cam that minimizes this but causes it to torque like no other bow has ever torqued then you designed a flaw. That may be able to be fixed with a little modification. Who knows.


I think the only time lean is an issue is when its inconsistent or excessive. But if it hits the x it hits the x regarless of anything else....


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

poole said:


> Your admiral is adjustable isnt it? I have not adjusted one, but was under the impression that you could adjust it. If im not mistaken my dealer called bt about it. He was afraid to turn/pull to hard...they told him not to worry that it would be fine.


 They are slightly adjustable , i pulled mine and filled it with cottonballs . They do come right out , I would pull from the rod and work it loose , not the dampener on the end though. 
I didnt even know there is horizontal adjustment on the dampener til i got it off the bow .


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

highwaynorth said:


> I hear what you are saying. I don't set the center shot where I think it needs to be. I let the bow tell me that. Very close to center is just where it happened to be. If I was Tap I would send the bow to Bowtech. When you
> have a bow that won't respond to any type of tuning, something is wrong
> with the bow.


I had a problem with an 08 82nd going through limbs. Some accused the press, so the last set was only pressed in an ezpress which BT was aware of. The limbs still cracked. I sent the bow back to BT and a brand new '09 came back! i was very pleased with the service. My guess is that will make it right for TAP if they can. If they all truly have problems than a replacement will obviously not help.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

I wonder if some of this could be caused by the new rocker style
pivot system causing the limbs to flex inconsistantly across the
rockers.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

poole said:


> Your admiral is adjustable isnt it? I have not adjusted one, but was under the impression that you could adjust it. If im not mistaken my dealer called bt about it. He was afraid to turn/pull to hard...they told him not to worry that it would be fine.


no. it's only adjustable left and right. Not forward and backwards. It's glued in at the riser with a small plate over it. I could prolly get it loose with some of my PHD ******* skills but I'd prolly break something. lmao


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

tmo said:


> 60-70 lb Captain, maxed out to 71lbs. Set to #1 on the mod's. Factory strings , factory side plate grip. Ok , all factory, nothing special
> Shooting Gt pro hunters, 29". 100 bh's and fp's. 4" Duravanes , 3 fletch, no wraps. I believe they worked out to 414 gr. total .
> For bh's , i tune and set up with 3 blade muzzy's , and hunt with muzzy and 2 blade rage. i have not shot the rage practice tip through it yet.The muzzy's are a b*#@h , especially at 50 + , but they are in 3".


You may be the man. I am glad to hear that it is grouping, that is awsome groups with a BH, watch them vanes. Which Muzzy you usin.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

poole said:


> He may also be interested in a2a on both sides of your bow and brace height measurement.


and which GT Pro Hunter shaft?


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## Dextreme (Jul 7, 2005)

tmo said:


> 60-70 lb Captain, maxed out to 71lbs. Set to #1 on the mod's. Factory strings , factory side plate grip. Ok , all factory, nothing special
> Shooting Gt pro hunters, 29". 100 bh's and fp's. 4" Duravanes , 3 fletch, no wraps. I believe they worked out to 414 gr. total .
> For bh's , i tune and set up with 3 blade muzzy's , and hunt with muzzy and 2 blade rage. i have not shot the rage practice tip through it yet.The muzzy's are a b*#@h , especially at 50 + , but they are in 3".


That is essentially my set up as well with the exception that mine is set to #3 on the mods and my 29" GT 75/95's have 2" Blazers.... Tight consistant groups out to 60 yards.


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

has anybody looked at the plastic pivots that the limbs rest on ? its just a thought but, i wonder if they are not the same height and could be causing one limb to lean more to one side, or if you could shim one side up a little to even them


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

maybee another dumb idea.......my hoyts always had limb savers on the split limbs. would this slave the split limbs together and maybee help?


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

poole said:


> He may also be interested in a2a on both sides of your bow and brace height measurement.





TAP said:


> and which GT Pro Hunter shaft?


Sorry , those are vitals arent they?!
AtA is 34 1/8" on both sides, brace is 8" to dead center of the string.
Measured tiller from the end of the limb where it meets the top of riser .I use a standard tape measure for this one , and it is even at 12 1/2" . (outside edge of limb corner)
If there is a better way to measure tiller on these , please let me know .

Gold Tip's - 7595 Pro hunters.I hadtry Easton Axis Nano 400's after reading what all the cool kids were saying about 'likeing' a lighter spine , they did 'O.K.' .After 50- 70 shots through it , I could see the corkscrew , and had the telltale flyers.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

Dextreme said:


> That is essentially my set up as well with the exception that mine is set to #3 on the mods and my 29" GT 75/95's have 2" Blazers.... Tight consistant groups out to 60 yards.


 Long distance high five !........SMACK! lol!
Lucky us , i believe.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

Ill make a prediction here......we will see a fix....in the 2010 models.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

*TAP and USNarcher*

Question for TAP and USNarcher:

Given you experience with the bow thus far, do you think the average hunter will notice the problem? Just wondering what potential this has for BT.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

So which Hoyt should i buy now? :flypig: Wonder what my trade in will be for my Captain? Just kidding! :behindsof


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

poole said:


> Question for TAP and USNarcher:
> 
> Given you experience with the bow thus far, do you think the average hunter will notice the problem? Just wondering what potential this has for BT.


Probably not. But if you have any questions about your new bow you should definately consult your dealer with your issue. They should be able to help.



rsarns said:


> So which Hoyt should i buy now? :flypig: Wonder what my trade in will be for my Captain? Just kidding! :behindsof


Watch it vegetarian. :zip:


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

USNarcher said:


> You may be the man. I am glad to hear that it is grouping, that is awsome groups with a BH, watch them vanes. Which Muzzy you usin.


The old 1" 3 blade. At times I feel like they are more predictable than the expandable rage.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

wow this is as long as this thread has gone without a post. I didnt want it to get lonely.  I am seeing lots of Bowtechs in the classifieds. That's not a good sign.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

tmo said:


> Sorry , those are vitals arent they?!
> AtA is 34 1/8" on both sides, brace is 8" to dead center of the string.
> Measured tiller from the end of the limb where it meets the top of riser .I use a standard tape measure for this one , and it is even at 12 1/2" . (outside edge of limb corner)
> If there is a better way to measure tiller on these , please let me know .
> ...



The Captain shouldn't have an 8 inch brace.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

walks with a gi said:


> The Captain shouldn't have an 8 inch brace.


Der duh der! 
Sorry, 7" measured from the center of both holes


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

I have an idea, but I need to know if the user that have "NO" center shoot problems running there limbs at full poundage???? I have a theory about torque and how it is transfered to the riser opposite the cam lean angle. I wish a had a captain to work with. I will set up the experiment on my admiral and see if it works.


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## K-Z0NE (Jan 13, 2007)

Bow companys will have to not only build a bow that looks pretty and is fast but will have to be able to tune as there are probrably 10 times the amount of archers tuning thier own equipment in the last 7 to 10 years.Forums like this will force them to come up with the right stuff.The internet is a powerful thing Problems with a new Bow travel quickly now not a year later like the old days.Its even gettin harder for pro shops to sell u a line of BS (some not all).


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2009)

:darkbeer:


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I had a guy tell me I need to shoot my Admiral maxed out. If you back out the limb bolts, theres no pocket for support. he seemed to think the bolts would flex. I know those bolts are really long and I think he's right. I maxed it out for my shooting session this morning at daylight.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm shooting my Sentinel with 1/2 turn out from max and had the problem the whole time. I also owned a Captain earlier this year maxed out and the same problem. For me, that doesn't help.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

I have been following this thread faithfully and I must say that if my bow company didn't respond to an obvious problem/defect like this, it would be the last bow I owned from that company. I think that Bowtech is hiding their head in the sand on this issue and that these shooters are being more than reasonable. :thumbs_do In the long run it can only hurt Bowtech to stay silent on this issue. I would assume that people who are and have been loyal customers would like a little reciprocal loyalty? The internet is a powerful tool and the word of this problem and them not even commenting on it could lead to serious repercussions. 

Time to MAN UP Bowtech.

I don't want to see this happen because I think that the more quality manufacturers that are out there just makes it better for the consumers as a whole. If just one guy is pushing the limits on design, it forces the others to do the same.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

bowpro34 said:


> I'm shooting my Sentinel with 1/2 turn out from max and had the problem the whole time. I also owned a Captain earlier this year maxed out and the same problem. For me, that doesn't help.


I agree. I dont think that will solve any issues having to do with the problems discussed on this thread. I do believe that if you had the bow backed out say 6 or 7 turns, it sure wouldnt make it shoot any better.( On a center pivot, 1 turn is 1# of draw weight just in case anybody doesnt know that. ) I thought at first that Bowtech had tested that design and it wouldnt be an issue but I'm not so sure now. I'm not gonna take any chances. 

OK. I just got done shooting the Admiral. I listed my set up earlier I believe and I was shootin the lights out with it. Perfect arrow flight, deadly quiet, smooth accurate, etc. This bow is a killer and it will be with me til..... well a long time.  I havent bareshaft or paper tuned it and I havent shot broadheads yet. I will shoot spitfires,grim peapers or maybe some wasp 1 3/4 cut jak hammers I have. I'll post results when I shoot the broadheads from it if I think it's warranted.


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

Anyone else out there broadhead tune there Captains yet? I mostly hunt and hit an occasional 3D shoot so as long as I can get it to tune with broadheads out to 40 yards I'd be happy....I guess


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

K-Z0NE said:


> Bow companys will have to not only build a bow that looks pretty and is fast but will have to be able to tune as there are probrably 10 times the amount of archers tuning thier own equipment in the last 7 to 10 years.Forums like this will force them to come up with the right stuff.The internet is a powerful thing Problems with a new Bow travel quickly now not a year later like the old days.Its even gettin harder for pro shops to sell u a line of BS (some not all).





-bowfreak- said:


> I have been following this thread faithfully and I must say that if my bow company didn't respond to an obvious problem/defect like this, it would be the last bow I owned from that company. I think that Bowtech is hiding their head in the sand on this issue and that these shooters are being more than reasonable. :thumbs_do In the long run it can only hurt Bowtech to stay silent on this issue. I would assume that people who are and have been loyal customers would like a little reciprocal loyalty? The internet is a powerful tool and the word of this problem and them not even commenting on it could lead to serious repercussions.
> 
> Time to MAN UP Bowtech.
> 
> I don't want to see this happen because I think that the more quality manufacturers that are out there just makes it better for the consumers as a whole. If just one guy is pushing the limits on design, it forces the others to do the same.


The issues of a few here on AT do no represent the volume of sales that a archery company has.

If you cannot get the performance out of your equipment you should take it back to your authorized dealer. They should be more than qualified to help with your issues.


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

USNarcher said:


> The issues of a few here on AT do no represent the volume of sales that a archery company has.
> 
> If you cannot get the performance out of your equipment you should take it back to your authorized dealer. They should be more than qualified to help with your issues.


Did Bowtech spank you for posting on here? Those sound like the words of a Bowtech employee  jk


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

goldtip22 said:


> Did Bowtech spank you for posting on here? Those sound like the words of a Bowtech employee  jk


Since I retired out of the Navy nobody slaps me for nothin, cuz I can tell them what to do.

If you really must know......I am going to be fair to those concerned and give the issue a chance to be solved. I am scheptical that it will but am taking the high road and letting the proper channels have aturn at it.

It was brough to my attention that At does not represent the volume of sales. I cannot argue with that. And if there is an issue then the volumes should be returning to their point of origin and address it. If it cannot be resolved then the factory will be contacted and tracked officially. I am not an official dealer nor am in the chain of command for issues....though I do kinda like being called the Bowtech Guru........But I cannot argue that point either.

So that being said. If YOU cannot get you equipment shooting to your standards then return to you highly qualified authorized dealer for a solution. Thank you.


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## Mossybuck (Jun 13, 2008)

goldtip22 said:


> Anyone else out there broadhead tune there Captains yet? I mostly hunt and hit an occasional 3D shoot so as long as I can get it to tune with broadheads out to 40 yards I'd be happy....I guess


I have shot slick tricks and rage practice tips out to 60yards and didnt have to touch anything. They hit right with my field tips. My average group was 4.5inches.


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

Mossybuck said:


> I have shot slick tricks and rage practice tips out to 60yards and didnt have to touch anything. They hit right with my field tips. My average group was 4.5inches.


That's encouraging. Thanks


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

BOHO said:


> I had a guy tell me I need to shoot my Admiral maxed out. If you back out the limb bolts, theres no pocket for support. he seemed to think the bolts would flex. I know those bolts are really long and I think he's right. I maxed it out for my shooting session this morning at daylight.


DID IT HELP? the limbs would have to be fully seated not 1/2 turn out. It is not bolt flex I'm looking for, but movement around the loose bolt. Cam lean will put a higher load on one limb, after that passes over the center pivot bridge the load is revirsed at the limb bolt. If the string goes left (cam lean) the bow infront of the CP goes right (reverse torque)??? The bow would pivot around the CP brigde??? Any change in hand position and you have horizontal errors. Also a weak spine arrow would absorb the torque. This is all a guess at this point, but I have some ideas no how to test it. I have been out of town for a month and have other things needing aattention first. I may be able to look at the torque force loads on my bow this weekend.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

pokeyl said:


> DID IT HELP? the limbs would have to be fully seated not 1/2 turn out. It is not bolt flex I'm looking for, but movement around the loose bolt. Cam lean will put a higher load on one limb, after that passes over the center pivot bridge the load is revirsed at the limb bolt. If the string goes left (cam lean) the bow infront of the CP goes right (reverse torque)??? The bow would pivot around the CP brigde??? Any change in hand position and you have horizontal errors. Also a weak spine arrow would absorb the torque. This is all a guess at this point, but I have some ideas no how to test it. I have been out of town for a month and have other things needing aattention first. I may be able to look at the torque force loads on my bow this weekend.


well my Admiral never did shoot what I would call bad. I will say that from when I had it backed out 4 turns yesterday to maxed out today, it shot much more accurately today. I was hitting the spot I was shooting at where as yesterday I could only get within about 2". Thats shooting at a spot about the size of a .50 piece at 30 yards. Might have been me but I was shootin much better with the bow maxed out.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

USNarcher said:


> The issues of a few here on AT do no represent the volume of sales that a archery company has.
> 
> If you cannot get the performance out of your equipment you should take it back to your authorized dealer. They should be more than qualified to help with your issues.


Obviously the issue is inherent in the design. I think that AT represents an honest sampling of their bows. The only difference is that the AT guy may be a little more informed and possibly a little more avid of a shooter. Therefore they expect more from their equipment.

I realize you shoot for Bowtech and believe in the company and they have been good to you but, it IMHO is still in their best interest to address this issue. If it is inherent in the design, it is a matter of time until they HAVE to address the issue. The longer they wait, the worse they will look.

I appreciate you being civil and not throwing them (or me) under the bus but, what is a dealer going to be able to do to a bow that you can't? Nothing other than ship it back to Bowtech. I am not trying to be combative towards you or any other person on this thread, I just feel that Bowtech should at least address this issue at some level.

I won't comment again on this thread as I don't want others to percieve this as a bash fest because it is not. I honestly hope that there is an easy fix and all parties are happy in the end.


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

BOHO said:


> well my Admiral never did shoot what I would call bad. I will say that from when I had it backed out 4 turns yesterday to maxed out today, it shot much more accurately today. I was hitting the spot I was shooting at where as yesterday I could only get within about 2". Thats shooting at a spot about the size of a .50 piece at 30 yards. Might have been me but I was shootin much better with the bow maxed out.


Based on this I think the next step is machine some spacers to install on the limb bolts. A set .125 inch, radius to fit the limb and the limb pocket. If it turns out to be a problem with just the pivot at the limb we can use a jam nut if you have the limbs backed out that far.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2009)

How many guys have gotten rid of their 09 CPs because of this problem??


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

pokeyl said:


> Based on this I think the next step is machine some spacers to install on the limb bolts. A set .125 inch, radius to fit the limb and the limb pocket. If it turns out to be a problem with just the pivot at the limb we can use a jam nut if you have the limbs backed out that far. The best solution would be to have the limbs totally tight (maxed out) no spacers. I know, give bowtech more money to fix a problem we should not have to deal with.


Man if you can do that I think that's great. I dont have a press or any big money things like that to fool with bows. I am limited in my tools and in my knowledge about extensive tuning. If that helps these guys tune their bows that they cant get tuned as of now, you'll be titled the Master.  Let us know how it turns out.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Jaben620 said:


> How many guys have gotten rid of their 09 CPs because of this problem??


a bunch. They have been in the classifieds for a while now and more all the time.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

Jaben620 said:


> How many guys have gotten rid of their 09 CPs because of this problem??


I will be getting rid of mine soon.


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

Jaben620 said:


> How many guys have gotten rid of their 09 CPs because of this problem??


I'm holding on to mine.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Jared Les said:


> I will be getting rid of mine soon.


I really feel bad for the guys that are having issues that wanna sell em. Everybody and his brother has read or even posted on this thread. Gonna have a hard time getting anything for it I'm afraid. Might have to take a HUGE loss just to sell it. :sad:

Just checked the view count on this thread. over 8,000


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

BOHO said:


> I really feel bad for the guys that are having issues that wanna sell em. Everybody and his brother has read or even posted on this thread. Gonna have a hard time getting anything for it I'm afraid. Might have to take a HUGE loss just to sell it. :sad:QUOTE]
> 
> Just sell them on ebay.


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## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

Jaben620 said:


> How many guys have gotten rid of their 09 CPs because of this problem??



Bought mine in Oct and sold it in NOV.


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

BOHO said:


> Man if you can do that I think that's great. I dont have a press or any big money things like that to fool with bows. I am limited in my tools and in my knowledge about extensive tuning. If that helps these guys tune their bows that they cant get tuned as of now, you'll be titled the Master.  Let us know how it turns out.


Your right it needs to be something anyone can do, how about this

Use quility aluminum washers and bend them with a small hand press, we'll have to find something with the correct radius, small steel pipe? It would be cheap and anyone could duplcate them. If we find the right thickness, each washer added would drop 1 pound. Add more washer to get were you want to be.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

pokeyl said:


> Your right it needs to be something anyone can do, how about this
> 
> Use quility aluminum washers and bend them with a small hand press, we'll have to find something with the correct radius, small steel pipe? It would be cheap and anyone could duplcate them. If we find the right thickness, each washer added would drop 1 pound. Add more washer to get were you want to be.


Well that sure sounds interesting. My question would be if it doesnt help and you damage the bow, is Bowtech gonna fix or replace it? My guess would be no. The next question would be is it worth damaging the bow? I'd say it depends on your financial situation. If a new bow isnt that big of a deal then go for it. If you have to save money for 2 years to be able to buy a new bow, you sure dont wanna void the warranty on it. If your having problems getting it to shoot well, selling it and taking a loss might be your best bet. Only other thing I can think of is to hold on to it and see if Bowtech or one of these super bow tech guys comes up with a fix that will get the bow shooting properly. JMO


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

pokeyl said:


> Your right it needs to be something anyone can do, how about this
> 
> Use quility aluminum washers and bend them with a small hand press, we'll have to find something with the correct radius, small steel pipe? It would be cheap and anyone could duplcate them. If we find the right thickness, each washer added would drop 1 pound. Add more washer to get were you want to be.


This will not help.


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## pine (Jul 30, 2006)

After reading all this I was considering maxing out the poundage on my Admiral. But if I remember right, the manual says to keep bolts backed out 1/4 turn. Now should I bottom out the bolts to attempt to get the fix or back out as recommended? Anyway what really is the reason for the 1/4 back out recommendation?


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

did you turn the bolts all the way in and then a half back or leave them all the way in?


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

pine said:


> After reading all this I was considering maxing out the poundage on my Admiral. But if I remember right, the manual says to keep bolts backed out 1/4 turn. Now should I bottom out the bolts to attempt to get the fix or back out as recommended? Anyway what really is the reason for the 1/4 back out recommendation?


actually, I just remembered. I maxed them out and did back off that 1/4 turn. The way I received the bow the limb bolts werent turned down the same amount so I maxed them both out and came back 1/4 so they would be the same. Sorry I forgot about that. They say the mind is the first thing to go.....lol :embara:


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

BOHO said:


> Well that sure sounds interesting. My question would be if it doesnt help and you damage the bow, is Bowtech gonna fix or replace it? My guess would be no. The next question would be is it worth damaging the bow? I'd say it depends on your financial situation. If a new bow isnt that big of a deal then go for it. If you have to save money for 2 years to be able to buy a new bow, you sure dont wanna void the warranty on it. If your having problems getting it to shoot well, selling it and taking a loss might be your best bet. Only other thing I can think of is to hold on to it and see if Bowtech or one of these super bow tech guys comes up with a fix that will get the bow shooting properly. JMO


I think the 1/4 or 1/2 turn is for bows were you are putting force to the fiberglass part of a limb directly. this is not the case with the CP bows you are just seating one metal part on another one. It may not help at all. But how is bowtech going to know? Just take the washers back off and take it back to the dealer, if you have a problem. I'll try it this weekend. But I would like someone with a captain to max out ther limbs and see what happens. It seems the captain has the most problems.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Although I know most of you are trying to help, this thread last it's direction a long time ago. Putting washers under your limb pocket isn't going to do anything. BOTH my Captain and Sentinal have been from locked down tight to over 10 turns out in the tuning process.

I have some ideas as to what the problem is, and I am working on a few things to prove it out. I am not going to say anything until such a time it is repeatable, and proven to be the culprit.

The idea came from this thread, and at the moment it looks as though it is going to require new thinking for this type of design for the shooter.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

TAP said:


> Although I know most of you are trying to help, this thread last it's direction a long time ago. Putting washers under your limb pocket isn't going to do anything. BOTH my Captain and Sentinal have been from locked down tight to over 10 turns out in the tuning process.
> 
> I have some ideas as to what the problem is, and I am working on a few things to prove it out. I am not going to say anything until such a time it is repeatable, and proven to be the culprit.
> 
> The idea came from this thread, and at the moment it looks as though it is going to require new thinking for this type of design for the shooter.


I'm anxious to see what you come up with. Good luck to ya'll.


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

BOHO said:


> a bunch. They have been in the classifieds for a while now and more all the time.


What bow isn't in the classifieds? Monsters, X-Forces, Z-28's, AM32s.....the list goes on. To be honest I see more Z-28's than I do Captains.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

goldtip22 said:


> What bow isn't in the classifieds? Monsters, X-Forces, Z-28's, AM32s.....the list goes on. To be honest I see more Z-28's than I do Captains.


Pointless and exactly why it is soo hard to have a constructive thread. This adds nothing and only attempts to bash......pointless. sorry.


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## Archer247 (Feb 18, 2008)

Bow Tec is going to play the odds.If your not shooting these bows for competition or do your own tuning and maintenance.You probably would not be able to tell that there is a problem with the bow.IMO this represents a small percentage of poeple that these bows were sold to.So I guess in business this percentage is worth losing than admitting a problem,this percentage is expendable.I would like to here from the guys that are shooting competition the guys who check there equipment constently.Is there any of these guys out there that has been able to pull this bow (Sentinal) out of the box and paper tune or bare shaft tune without out having to make any modifications to the bow and be able to shoot a normal speced arrow.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

I DONT SEE anybody with a iceman complaining of these issues or any problems,same design right?


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

*Papertune Illusion*

I'm trying to keep myself from replying to each any every post but this looked worth while.

Lots of guys think they have the bow tuned in fine and for their ability, they may never see any problems. All the CP's are fast and very quiet and should make great hunting bows.

Some guys like myself got the bow to papertune but what I did without realizing it was tricked myself into thinking it was papertuned. In all reality, the weaker spine just flexes enough to give the *illusion* of tuning through paper. The point stayed put momentarily and the shaft flexed toward the vane tear. It took some squinting but I can tell now that my bullethole, really wasn't.

I'll be the first to admit that my other posts/threads about these bows liking a weaker spine is off the mark.
JS


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

is there a duiffrence in the icman and the admirals and captains design,any issues with it ,anybody know and why or why not


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

deerwhackmaster said:


> is there a duiffrence in the icman and the admirals and captains design,any issues with it ,anybody know and why or why not


Other than it being a solo cam Im not aware of anything different.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

i havent heard of any of these issues with a iceman and im wondering why?


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

deerwhackmaster said:


> i havent heard of any of these issues with a iceman and im wondering why?


My guess is that it hit the shelves last (i think) and the iceman and admiral are probably being purchased by mostly just hunters and not archers that will being doing the kind of shooting and tuning that captain and sentinel owners are doing. It may not have a problem, but if it does this is my best guess as to why your not hearing about it.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

well i treid the limb bolt deal. it helped some. i even cut a half inch off the draw, to try a different holding technique..it tightened the groop a little but still is not what i am looking for...interested in taps findings.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

i figured it out,sell it well it still holds value,loved mine ,but it wouldnt work so bye bye,sold on ebay almost full price


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

lost american said:


> well i treid the limb bolt deal. it helped some. i even cut a half inch off the draw, to try a different holding technique..it tightened the groop a little but still is not what i am looking for...interested in taps findings.


 It has nothing to do with the limb bolts. I found the "problem" and it's the roller guard. For 90% of the shooters out there the bows shoot fine but there is a way to make it better with a cable rod and slide arangement or my next project, a flexable roller guard. I proved it to myself with the cable rod set up I made with better consistency in my shooting and visually better arrow flight. If you want all you can get from these bows you're going to have to make some changes in the roller guard because there is too much lateral torque put into the riser with the non flexing roller guard bracket. The cable rod set up minimizes the torque but you loose speed and 5 pounds of peak draw weight. I want the speed back so I'm going to have to work at it to get it. I'm willing to work at the problem and I'll keep this bow regardless because it's a great bow that just needs a bit of a massage to make it sing.
With the Center Pivot cams there is more torque than a dual or single cam because of the longer distance the cables need to be pulled over to provide fletch clearance. I've seen the same "inside of center" tuning on a few Mathews bows I've seen. The owners say they shoot great and by watching them shoot I'd have to conclude that their accuracy supports their claim. I'd also have to theorize that the IceMan and it's single cam set up would torque less than the Admiral and be more forgiving in hand placement on the grip.

I did improve my arrow flight and consistency by "pointing" my grip hand thumb up, along side the riser.


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

walks with a gi said:


> It has nothing to do with the limb bolts. I found the "problem" and it's the roller guard. For 90% of the shooters out there the bows shoot fine but there is a way to make it better with a cable rod and slide arangement or my next project, a flexable roller guard. I proved it to myself with the cable rod set up I made with better consistency in my shooting and visually better arrow flight. If you want all you can get from these bows you're going to have to make some changes in the roller guard because there is too much lateral torque put into the riser with the non flexing roller guard bracket. The cable rod set up minimizes the torque but you loose speed and 5 pounds of peak draw weight. I want the speed back so I'm going to have to work at it to get it. I'm willing to work at the problem and I'll keep this bow regardless because it's a great bow that just needs a bit of a massage to make it sing.
> With the Center Pivot cams there is more torque than a dual or single cam because of the longer distance the cables need to be pulled over to provide fletch clearance. I've seen the same "inside of center" tuning on a few Mathews bows I've seen. The owners say they shoot great and by watching them shoot I'd have to conclude that their accuracy supports their claim. I'd also have to theorize that the IceMan and it's single cam set up would torque less than the Admiral and be more forgiving in hand placement on the grip.
> 
> I did improve my arrow flight and consistency by "pointing" my grip hand thumb up, along side the riser.


my buddies switchback tunes so far inside his qad drop away sits up against the riser,his is a solo cam though :sad:


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

walks with a gi said:


> It has nothing to do with the limb bolts. I found the "problem" and it's the roller guard.


Could you do something similar with a longer axle for the rollers? This would allow the cables to come closer to center. You would still have the 5lb loss but shorter cables could fix that.
JS


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

walks with a gi said:


> It has nothing to do with the limb bolts. I found the "problem" and it's the roller guard. For 90% of the shooters out there the bows shoot fine but there is a way to make it better with a cable rod and slide arangement or my next project, a flexable roller guard. I proved it to myself with the cable rod set up I made with better consistency in my shooting and visually better arrow flight. If you want all you can get from these bows you're going to have to make some changes in the roller guard because there is too much lateral torque put into the riser with the non flexing roller guard bracket. The cable rod set up minimizes the torque but you loose speed and 5 pounds of peak draw weight. I want the speed back so I'm going to have to work at it to get it. I'm willing to work at the problem and I'll keep this bow regardless because it's a great bow that just needs a bit of a massage to make it sing.
> With the Center Pivot cams there is more torque than a dual or single cam because of the longer distance the cables need to be pulled over to provide fletch clearance. I've seen the same "inside of center" tuning on a few Mathews bows I've seen. The owners say they shoot great and by watching them shoot I'd have to conclude that their accuracy supports their claim. I'd also have to theorize that the IceMan and it's single cam set up would torque less than the Admiral and be more forgiving in hand placement on the grip.
> 
> I did improve my arrow flight and consistency by "pointing" my grip hand thumb up, along side the riser.


With the solocam you can change the idler lean; with the binaries you get what you get. Think this could be the difference?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

skynight said:


> With the solocam you can change the idler lean; with the binaries you get what you get. Think this could be the difference?


 Well you sure as heck can't shim the cams or twist the yoke. The first thing I tried on my bow was milling about .050" off the inside of the roller guard bracket to allow the rollers to come in a bit, maybe 5/32" at the rollers. I immediately seen the point of impact change to the right at 20 yards which allowed me to move the rest out. By going to a cable rod and it's inherent flex inward, I probably moved the rest out another 3/16 of an inch. I'm on the right path to true center shot by relieving some of the torque of the cables but loosing speed is not a desirable change. What I'm going to try to do is make a roller guard bracket that hinges in the middle and use a compression spring to allow the back half of the roller guard bracket to give to additional torque at full draw. It "should" be more forgiving of hand torque imput and work in accordance with the shooters influence on the grip.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

bowpro34 said:


> Could you do something similar with a longer axle for the rollers? This would allow the cables to come closer to center. You would still have the 5lb loss but shorter cables could fix that.
> JS


 It's not where the rollers are laterally, it is where they are fore and aft that looses draw weight. If the rollers were inline with the string but still pulling the cables in, little if any draw weight would be lost. Where the rollers are latterally is what's causing the tuning problems for some people. Shot with a neutral grip, the string comes off the cams to the right. Twist the grip out and you combat the torque of the roller guard bracket and get more favorable arrow flight and tuning. This could be the situation where some people are seeing no problems and some are. Twist the grip in and you have very bad tuning and arrow flight. The key is twisting the grip exactly the same each shot, which the Hooter Shooter does the best job of. I took the left side plate off my bow and seen a difference in how the string came off the top cam. If we could adjust the grip center to the right (on a right handed bow), it would counter the roller guard torque.


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## clg9mm (Nov 21, 2008)

*Death grip*

Anybody try one of these on the bow? Supposed to eliminate torgue.


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## K-Z0NE (Jan 13, 2007)

Retaining the cables has always been a design problem.The 2005 Alliegance was good attempt to get around it with the huge center shot and was easy to tune.Heres what i propose: Use gimps flexible roller gaurd,offset the limbs like the 2005 Alli (not as drastic) and add axle shims to fine tune the center shot this will give u enough adjustment for just about anyone to achieve a good tune without having a nervous breakdown.Problems with the Binary system.:mg:


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

just shoot one of these and be done with it.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The shoot through roller guard won't work on the Admiral.


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## jdcamo (Sep 18, 2006)

Interesting. I took the side plates off my sentinel and my groups got bigger. Side plates went back on and shooting improved. I havnt experimented with just taking one side plate off or something to that nature. My Sentinel is definitly a shooter. I just wish my groups would be a little tighter. I dont shoot competion , but just strickly hunt. But I am anal about how accurate my shooting is for hunting. No matter what i will keep my Sentinel at least until the next years models come out. I stand behind Bowtech 100%. 

Hopefully these small issues can be fixed.
Hopefully someone can figure out a quick easy fix to help tighten up the groups.


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## mathews#1 (Feb 23, 2003)

Well i am glade i read this before i spent the $799.00 for my son's first bow As you can see i am a mathews person but the only thing about a mathews i don't like is you can't adjust the DL unless you keep buying cam so with that being said i was looking to buy a Bowtech Captain for my 13 year old son for his first bow because it is an adjustable DL bow and like the guy said at the pro shop my son is only 13 and to buy a mathews or any bow that you can't adjust with out buying another cam or having to buy a new bow everytime he grow because of the DL i would be spending a lot of $$$ which i don't have so he talked me into looking at the Bowtech Captain and that is what i was going to buy him UNTIL i read this thread. I was wondering why there were so many Captain for sale on Archerytalk and i am glade i found this thread and needless to say i won't be buying a Bowtech unless they come out and say they found the problem and fixed it then yes i would buy him the Captain. I wish that Mathews would go to having adjustable Draw length. Bow's are to exspensive to have to buy one everytime he gets bigger. So now back to the drawing board


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Good thread. I can't wait to see what TAP has found. I also think it sounds like I would look at the cable guard closely. Maybe the cam system doesn't agree with a roller cable guard.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

mathews#1 said:


> Well i am glade i read this before i spent the $799.00 for my son's first bow As you can see i am a mathews person but the only thing about a mathews i don't like is you can't adjust the DL unless you keep buying cam so with that being said i was looking to buy a Bowtech Captain for my 13 year old son for his first bow because it is an adjustable DL bow and like the guy said at the pro shop my son is only 13 and to buy a mathews or any bow that you can't adjust with out buying another cam or having to buy a new bow everytime he grow because of the DL i would be spending a lot of $$$ which i don't have so he talked me into looking at the Bowtech Captain and that is what i was going to buy him UNTIL i read this thread. I was wondering why there were so many Captain for sale on Archerytalk and i am glade i found this thread and needless to say i won't be buying a Bowtech unless they come out and say they found the problem and fixed it then yes i would buy him the Captain. I wish that Mathews would go to having adjustable Draw length. Bow's are to exspensive to have to buy one everytime he gets bigger. So now back to the drawing board


get him an Admiral or a Iceman. Both fantastic bows.


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## mathews#1 (Feb 23, 2003)

BOHO
Thanks i will check them out But wasn't the Admiral one of the bows they were having problems with to  I don't see the Iceman in my 09 Bowtech book Who make them :confused2:? As you can tell i only deal with Mathews . This really does stink because he had him hart set on the Captain because it was his very first bow that they put in his hand and that he could pull back. I know that don't make a differents but to him it does and that is the bow he is set on now. I would have like to shoot it my self to see how it fell but i couldn't shoot it because i am still rehabing my right shoulder from surgery and i am hoping i will be well enough and be able to pull back my 70lb DXT.


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## poole (Jan 10, 2008)

mathews#1 said:


> BOHO
> Thanks i will check them out But wasn't the Admiral one of the bows they were having problems with to  I don't see the Iceman in my 09 Bowtech book Who make them :confused2:? As you can tell i only deal with Mathews


The iceman is made under bowtechs "diamond archery". It includes most of their solo cams. The iceman is very similar to the admiral in single cam form. Diamond is to bowtech as mission is to mathews.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Great thoughts here and you can also check out the bow madness line from PSE as the single cam they are making on them this year is also adjustable without purchase of even modules. Good luck and TAP we are still waiting.....


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

MrSinister said:


> Great thoughts here and you can also check out the bow madness line from PSE as the single cam they are making on them this year is also adjustable without purchase of even modules. Good luck and TAP we are still waiting.....


Here's what I have been able to do. I was using a Ripcord rest. I did try a lizard tongue rest early on, but probably didnt spend enough time with it.

My Sentinal shoots the same exact arrow much straighter and should be tuneable. The only difference between the bows was the rest. So Friday I switched them around.

Now the Sentinal exhibits the same behavior. I called Ripcord and they gave me some pointers on how to set the rest up. Same crap with the sever left whip.

With a standard off the Shelf Golden Key rest I am able to get both bows to at least shoot the bare shaft down the middle with the fletched. I now have a down angle, but that I think I can tune out and live with.

So....any of you that are using drop away rests with the large fork like arrow holder, I doubt you can get that bow to Bullet hole. Sorry but the combination of torque and design of the rest is not going to allow that bow to tune.

I had to dig DEEP to find some older rests but I think I am on to something.


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## goldtip22 (Oct 14, 2004)

I shot my Captain for the first time yesterday with a Hostage Pro rest. I just got the bow on Friday. Shooting at 70 lbs, 29" with a Maxima 350 arrow with blazers and it shot just fine. I have it set up with the arrow running through the middle of the berger holes with nock height perfectly level. I have the center shot set right down the middle and I do notice the arrow pointing slightly to the left but I've had that on other bows as well. The 2005 Bowtechs were really bad...the arrow was pointing way out in left field. The only thing I don't care for right now is the hollow tube sound of the string suppressor but I guess there's a fix for that...cotton balls or something similar to absorb noise.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

just got to give em a little love....curl your fingers lightly around grip and always keep your eye on the level in sight. took me many arrows to shoot this bow accurately.... its now working..but i am playing with my old nap rest to get the arrow in the middle still. that and third axis to account for tourque.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

TAP said:


> Here's what I have been able to do. I was using a Ripcord rest. I did try a lizard tongue rest early on, but probably didnt spend enough time with it.
> 
> My Sentinal shoots the same exact arrow much straighter and should be tuneable. The only difference between the bows was the rest. So Friday I switched them around.
> 
> ...


I did the same thing with the Captain I had. Sorry i forgot to mention before. I tried a golden key with the TM prongs and got it to tear better. It just guides the arrow more which i think will only mask the problem. It should tear better but as for if it will shoot better, I'm unsure. Keep us informed and thanks for all the good info.
JS


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

mathews#1 said:


> BOHO
> Thanks i will check them out But wasn't the Admiral one of the bows they were having problems with to  I don't see the Iceman in my 09 Bowtech book Who make them :confused2:? As you can tell i only deal with Mathews . This really does stink because he had him hart set on the Captain because it was his very first bow that they put in his hand and that he could pull back. I know that don't make a differents but to him it does and that is the bow he is set on now. I would have like to shoot it my self to see how it fell but i couldn't shoot it because i am still rehabing my right shoulder from surgery and i am hoping i will be well enough and be able to pull back my 70lb DXT.


I was just gonna send you a PM cause I didnt want to upset anyone by posting again but others might wanna see this to. To my knowledge, nobody has had any issues with the Admiral. When I bought mine, I set it up by just eyeballing it and the arrows have flown straight and true every time so far. I've prolly shot it 100 times. I think it was stated earlier that the shorter the ATA the less issue you were gonna have. Also to my knowledge nobody has had any issues with the Iceman. They are both short ATA bows. I shot them side by side at a bow shop a few weeks ago. There's really not a penny's worth of difference in them other than the camo and the draw is ever so slightly different. I can tell ya if you buy either one you'll be very happy.


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

Recap, we need a dropaway that has a small contact area on the arrow shaft and gets out-of-the-way quickly? but a full containment is also good, IE W-Biscuit?? I do not understand, but I have had no problems with my Muzzy zero effects, I just thought I got lucky, guess I did. PS I have a ripcord I'm not using if someone wants it. PM me


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

sooo bow dont like drop aways? didnt i mention that pages back,muzzy zero effect has new drop away for roller guard bows also dont they?


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## bartl17 (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks TAP. I have certainly struggled with my QAD and Ripcord. I will look at other rests.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

deerwhackmaster said:


> sooo bow dont like drop aways? didnt i mention that pages back,muzzy zero effect has new drop away for roller guard bows also dont they?


 I've got a drop away on my bow but you can't buy one like it anywhere


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

Yes. Thanks Tap for all your time and effort. I have the ripcord on my Sentinel as well  and I'm guessing the limb driver I have available will be troublesome as well.
Waiting to hear which rest works the best.:thumbs_up


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

pokeyl said:


> Recap, we need a dropaway that has a small contact area on the arrow shaft and gets out-of-the-way quickly? but a full containment is also good, IE W-Biscuit?? I do not understand, but I have had no problems with my Muzzy zero effects, I just thought I got lucky, guess I did. PS I have a ripcord I'm not using if someone wants it. PM me


nice thought,look at the octane drop away,small very small hmmm


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## BEETLE GUY (Apr 14, 2007)

I bare shaft tuned mine and it can shoot a bare shaft twenty yards. I have an Octane on mine right now but I'll be going to a Kazzaway or a G5 Expert II so that the rest doesn't hit the shelf.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

TAP

I'm having the exact same problem with my new 82nd. I'm gonna keep playing with mine and see what I figure out. Might have to try a Hostage or a biscuit, or even the new Tri-Van.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

TAP said:


> Here's what I have been able to do. I was using a Ripcord rest. I did try a lizard tongue rest early on, but probably didnt spend enough time with it.
> 
> My Sentinal shoots the same exact arrow much straighter and should be tuneable. The only difference between the bows was the rest. So Friday I switched them around.
> 
> ...


LIMBDRIVER! Oh yeh, trim the prongs down also.


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## ProCoach (Jun 21, 2005)

I am not in the habit of posting but I do read what I feel might be important info as I work full time in the industry. A customer of mine brought this thread to my attention (just after purchasing a new Sentinel from me), and after reading over 10 pages of posts on this issue, I decided to do my own research to check the validity of what I have read.

It is important to first understand that it is critical that all arrows being tested are perfectly matched and tested through a shooting machine to ensure that all shafts will enter the exact same hole at 18 meters. This gives me a base line for my arrows and thus takes them out of the equation as far as being a part of the problem.

The second thing to understand is that; Unless the bow is changing in some way between shots ..... regardless of tune ..... you will always get the same results if you are doing the _exact same thing every time_ providing you have matched/tested arrows. A bow in a shooting machine will put all arrows in the same hole time after time .... regardles of having a perfect bow tune, as long as the arrows are matcherd. See where I'm going with this???

The main concern, as I read it, is that you can set the center shot on the bow.... draw it back, and the arrow is now pointing off to the left (right hand shooter). 

This same customer came into the store on Saturday and after a short conversation on this issue, I decided to go into the back shop and see what I could find out. I took out my own 2009 Sentinel, that I am currently testing, and checked it out for center shot at rest. The arrow rest was set for perfect c/s and the tip of the arrow was pointing down the center of my stabilizer.

I drew the bow back to anchor and ... "Hey , my arrow is pointing to the left." This confirmed to me the concerns of others. I let down and did it again and got the same result. So, while I was at full draw, I decided to work with my bow hand pressure. With almost no effort at all, I was able to shift the point of my arrow from showing left, to aiming down the center of my stabilizer, to showing to the right of it. The amount of pressure to make this change was very minimal and it was done by changing the side torque pressure in my bow hand wrist. The amount of change was so minute that my customer could not detect it. This exercise must be done with a long rod stabilizer so that you can reference the point of the arrow. This also proved to me that I have issues of my own as to my own personal bow hand pressure.

The bow hand is the most critical part of the shot making process. It is the first thing to touch the bow before the shot and it is the last thing touching the bow after the shot. Is the Sentinel more critical or subject to hand torque than any other bow ... maybe ... maybe not. The point is: that one's bow hand placement and the degree of applied torque is critical to the overall success of maintaining tight groups. Rarely is it ever a mechanical or tune issue that causes a flyer. I have not seen a bow yet that can shoot a tight group and then, all of a sudden shoot a flyer and then return to placing the following arrows back in the same group. This is driver error...........

To confirm my evaluation, I tested my Sentenel out to 90 meters, in my Hooter -Shooter, and did not have a single flyer. I tested it again, at 55 meters, shooting it myself and was able to shoot tight groups with no flyers. As a double check, by paying attention my arrow point allignment with my stabilizer as I settled at full draw, I was able to maintain complete accuracy. This just reinforced my position as to the importance of a good bow hand as to just how critical the most minute change in pressure can influence the outcome. 

I hope that this will help someone out there that feels that they have bought a 'lemon'. It is not your equipment that needs attention, it is your inconsistent form. We all suffer from it from time to time, I know I do, and this is why we need to pay attention to and work on what is important . . . our weaknesses. 

The test equipment used was: 2009 Sentenel 29" @ 52.3 lbs with 29.5" ProTour 420 shafts, F/F 2.25 vanes, 110gr points: NAP Quicktune Sizzor rest: Angel target sight with .75 Sure-Loc Black Eagle scope: Doinker Carbon Elite 34" stabilizer: Carter Ember 11 release: Hooter Shooter


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

ProCoach said:


> I am not in the habit of posting but I do read what I feel might be important info as I work full time in the industry. A customer of mine brought this thread to my attention (just after purchasing a new Sentinel from me), and after reading over 10 pages of posts on this issue, I decided to do my own research to check the validity of what I have read.
> 
> It is important to first understand that it is critical that all arrows being tested are perfectly matched and tested through a shooting machine to ensure that all shafts will enter the exact same hole at 18 meters. This gives me a base line for my arrows and thus takes them out of the equation as far as being a part of the problem.
> 
> ...


With all do respect, I was taught NOT to induce any sort of hand torque into the shot and I certainly am not going to start now. I shoot an open hand with the only part of the bow right under the shelf in contact with the web of my thumb and index finger. This is the proper way to hold a bow and anything where you need to hold the bow in alignment is simply wrong!

I have TRIED holding the bow straight and it has ZERO effect on the arrow flight and tune....they STILL whip severely left. I have narrowed my problem down to the rest at this point. The Ripcord simply has too much arrow contacting surface and even when setup EXACTLY like Ripcord told me to, it does the same thing. I can reduce the whip in the arrow by changing to a prong rest!


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

ProCoach said:


> The test equipment used was: 2009 Sentenel 29" @ 52.3 lbs with 29.5" ProTour 420 shafts, F/F 2.25 vanes, 110gr points: NAP Quicktune Sizzor rest: Angel target sight with .75 Sure-Loc Black Eagle scope: Doinker Carbon Elite 34" stabilizer: Carter Ember 11 release: Hooter Shooter


Did you use TAP? That is a perfect match! Even goes against what BowTech is telling people! They claim the bows like weaker spined arrows!


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## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

TAP said:


> With all do respect, I was taught NOT to induce any sort of hand torque into the shot and I certainly am not going to start now. I shoot an open hand with the only part of the bow right under the shelf in contact with the web of my thumb and index finger. This is the proper way to hold a bow and anything where you need to hold the bow in alignment is simply wrong!
> 
> I have TRIED holding the bow straight and it has ZERO effect on the arrow flight and tune....they STILL whip severely left. I have narrowed my problem down to the rest at this point. The Ripcord simply has too much arrow contacting surface and even when setup EXACTLY like Ripcord told me to, it does the same thing. I can reduce the whip in the arrow by changing to a prong rest!


in all due respect you should never have an "open" hand....that will induce torque like a closed "gripping the bow" hand can....hands should always be relaxed as in the natural position when they are hanging at your side...a slight curve to the fingers....the fingers in this pic are even a little to curved but you get the pic


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

trimantrekokc said:


> in all due respect you should never have an "open" hand....that will induce torque like a closed "gripping the bow" hand can....hands should always be relaxed as in the natural position when they are hanging at your side...a slight curve to the fingers....the fingers in this pic are even a little to curved but you get the pic


Thats what I call an open hand. Relaxed with nothing resting on the handle....just hanging there.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

Tony and I worked on his hand placement and it really had no effect on the flyers. They would still pop up out of nowhere so this is not causing the problem in his case.


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

trimantrekokc said:


> in all due respect you should never have an "open" hand....that will induce torque like a closed "gripping the bow" hand can....hands should always be relaxed as in the natural position when they are hanging at your side...a slight curve to the fingers....the fingers in this pic are even a little to curved but you get the pic


Thats an 'open hand' to me !
Thanks!


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

i have had 2 sentinals,the first one was sent back to bowtech because it would not tune. the replacement shoots a whole lot better and paper tuned good,but there is a design flaw with these bows and i know what it is now. the sentinal riser has too much lateral flex and it is apparent when the cables are pulled over into the roller guard as upposed to being left relaxed off of the roller guard. all u guys with sentinals try taking your roller guard completly off and watch the riser on each end while u squeeze the cables twards the riser. u will see what i'm talking about. the only true solution for this problem is to change it to a shoot thru cable system. i had my good sentinal sold,but the deal fell thru so now i'm going to use this bow to experiment with a shoot thru system to help the other senti owners out there pulling their hair out. i just aquired an additional sentinal cam that is needed for this conversion.i am sure that this will solve the dilema with the sentinal tuning issues. i will fill u guys in as i get further along .


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## Mossybuck (Jun 13, 2008)

ProCoach said:


> I am not in the habit of posting but I do read what I feel might be important info as I work full time in the industry. A customer of mine brought this thread to my attention (just after purchasing a new Sentinel from me), and after reading over 10 pages of posts on this issue, I decided to do my own research to check the validity of what I have read.
> 
> It is important to first understand that it is critical that all arrows being tested are perfectly matched and tested through a shooting machine to ensure that all shafts will enter the exact same hole at 18 meters. This gives me a base line for my arrows and thus takes them out of the equation as far as being a part of the problem.
> 
> ...



Nice Post.


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## backstrap steve (Feb 27, 2008)

I have a sentinel with a octane rest on it and I have shot it through paper a few times. I haven't noticed any odd tears. All I notice is a good shot each time. I would have to say that it is one of the most forgiving bows I have ever shot. I guess I got lucky. I'm sorry to hear about all the problems. Bowtech is a great company and hopfully they will keep all this stuff in mind when they design the new bows. To everyone researching bowtech and what they offer ill say from my experience with them for many years. One of the nicest bow ever built and any company can have issues. Don't let horror stories detour you. Go test them yourselves and you will find the bow you like. The name dosent matter. Just the bow does


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

this all sounds great but all the pics that i have seen of bowtech staff shooters with their sentinals,has been with a factory shoot thru system mounted on their bows. whats that tell ya, they are not as accurate as they can be when the lateral flex is removed from the riser with this type of conversion. i'll have mine done in a couple of days.


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

Could a captain be converted to a shoot through? what would it take to do it?


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## deerwhackmaster (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob_Looney said:


> just shoot one of these and be done with it.


this dont look like roller guard


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## ProCoach (Jun 21, 2005)

trimantrekokc said:


> in all due respect you should never have an "open" hand....that will induce torque like a closed "gripping the bow" hand can....hands should always be relaxed as in the natural position when they are hanging at your side...a slight curve to the fingers....the fingers in this pic are even a little to curved but you get the pic


As per your pic that reflects your personal bow hand .... TAP is correct when he calls this an "open hand." What you are describing and demonstrating is, in my estimation, a perfect bow hand. This is exactly the way I hold my bow and the way that I train others.

I only induced minor pressure to get a visual as to the effect of such action ... you know 'cause and effect.' It is impossible to teach others if you don't know what's causing what. 

We all have a certain amount of induced torque due to the natural triangle of the bow hand, bow hand shoulder and your release hand. This is unlike the straight line of the shooting machine. Our job is to minimize the amount and effect that is placed on the riser.

There are only three ways to release an arrow: Push ... Push/Pull ... or Pull.
Unless you can absolutly guarantee that you can push with the exact same amount of consistant pressure each and every time, then you have a flaw in your shot making process. This is why I don't teach anyone to do anything but to pull through their shot. 

I did not imply that I torque my bow to get it right, I only added slight pressure to test a theory. Now that I have my answer, I can establish a slightly better bow hand placemant for this particular bow.

Anyway, thank you for the pic., it is a great example of a desired placement for your bow hand. By-the-way, where's your finger sling???


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

deerwhackmaster said:


> this dont look like roller guard



It's a split roller guard. Take off the original and swap out a cam and you have a shoot through system.


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## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

ProCoach said:


> As per your pic that reflects your personal bow hand .... TAP is correct when he calls this an "open hand." What you are describing and demonstrating is, in my estimation, a perfect bow hand. This is exactly the way I hold my bow and the way that I train others.
> 
> I only induced minor pressure to get a visual as to the effect of such action ... you know 'cause and effect.' It is impossible to teach others if you don't know what's causing what.
> 
> ...


it's actually a pic i found here...not me....when i think "open" hand i think fingers sticking out straight which i hate to see people do when they come in looking for a bow.....


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

deerwhackmaster said:


> this dont look like roller guard


That's the shoot through roller guard they were working on and recently scrapped because of lack of interest.

It mounts in the same location the current one does, but is basically "L" shaped- it comes straight back and then has a track that runs Left to Right behind the riser. The rollers are mounted to the track giving them the ability to set the cables for fletching clearance.

This was going to be an add on option (with a reverse cam to allow cables to be routed to the same sides of the riser).


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

After reading PC thread I must have the worst form in archery. I'm taking up horseshoes.:darkbeer:


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

USNarcher said:


> After reading PC thread I must have the worst form in archery. I'm taking up horseshoes.:darkbeer:


lmao 

my huntin buddy just sent me this. not sure if ya'll have seen it or not. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTTE2tjy3k&feature=channel


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

vegas steve said:


> this all sounds great but all the pics that i have seen of bowtech staff shooters with their sentinals,has been with a factory shoot thru system mounted on their bows. whats that tell ya, they are not as accurate as they can be when the lateral flex is removed from the riser with this type of conversion. i'll have mine done in a couple of days.


Let me get this straight. There is a FACTORY SHOOT THROUGH SYSTEM available that I can order? :RockOn:

Order one for me ProCoach!!!!!


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

heavy dart said:


> Let me get this straight. There is a FACTORY SHOOT THROUGH SYSTEM available that I can order? :RockOn:


Nope.

They decided not to offer it...


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

MikeTN said:


> Nope.
> 
> They decided not to offer it...


Except to the chosen few. :sad:


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

heavy dart said:


> Except to the chosen few. :sad:


To my knowledge, only a couple of the guys that work for Bowtech have it.

We had one at the ATA show that we showed (I worked the Bowtech booth), and told dealers that it would probably be an option. There aren't many of them out there though.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

TAP said:


> With all do respect, I was taught NOT to induce any sort of hand torque into the shot and I certainly am not going to start now. I shoot an open hand with the only part of the bow right under the shelf in contact with the web of my thumb and index finger. This is the proper way to hold a bow and anything where you need to hold the bow in alignment is simply wrong!
> 
> I have TRIED holding the bow straight and it has ZERO effect on the arrow flight and tune....they STILL whip severely left. I have narrowed my problem down to the rest at this point. The Ripcord simply has too much arrow contacting surface and even when setup EXACTLY like Ripcord told me to, it does the same thing. I can reduce the whip in the arrow by changing to a prong rest!


 It's torque not the rest, you'll be chasing your tail a long time. Try this, build up the right 1/2 of your grip on the bow with tape about an 1/8" or more. At full draw with an arrow on the string like you would normally shoot, look up at the top cam to see how the string is coming off the top cam. If it's coming off to the right (right handed shooter) build up more tape on the right 1/2 of the grip until the string comes directly off and in-line with the string groove. It's this point where it will shoot the best.
You should see how the string comes off my neighbor's Admiral:mg: He's a big dude with catcher's mits for hands! Some will have problems and some have such good luck with their's that they can't understand why we're talking about it. I'd say that those people have hands that fit the riser's torque requirements for easy tuning, mine doesn't. A forgiving bow will be forgiving of hand placement #1 and a grip that is designed to be forgiving on a bow that exhibits excessive cable torque will be more accurate. Take some of that excess cable torque out of the recipie and the bow is also more forgiving. 
Fix the torque or counteract it in a consistent way.


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## trob_205 (Aug 18, 2008)

ok so i have been watchng this thread all along and finally am going to pipe up...it sounds to me like these bows are very picky in where you hand is placed or how its placed and the grip may even need some work to fit the archer...is that the assessemnt of this whole thread? as of late i have started to get lost


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

trob_205 said:


> ok so i have been watchng this thread all along and finally am going to pipe up...it sounds to me like these bows are very picky in where you hand is placed or how its placed and the grip may even need some work to fit the archer...is that the assessemnt of this whole thread? as of late i have started to get lost


 The bows aren't necessarily picky,, some of us are just VERY picky and some of us don't notice a thing to improve


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## tddeangelo (Jun 22, 2009)

OK, bear with me.... I'm new here and maybe I've missed a few things.

I have a 2009 Captain for a week now. I have it set up with a Ripcord rest. I'm shooting 63lbs at 29" with Victory V6 350's and 100gr points fletched with 4" vanes. 

The bow shoots VERY well (I was picking arrow holes in my Block tonight and hitting them at 20 yards MOST of the time....I'm not good enoug for EVERY time yet!). I am by no means an archery guru, but I know that this bow blows the doors off the Golden Eagle Lite Speed II I've been shooting, both for speed (obviously) and for forgiveness of form/technique. I had serious torque issues with the GE. Not with the Bowtech. 

I've found some form tweaks to improve my shooting, but the bow has so far provided good results, and in the week since i got it, I've probably got 150 shots on it. 

I will occasionally notice a bit of whip on my arrows (to the right, usually), but if I focus on a clean shot and get one, I don't see it. I DO see it when I know I've handled the release trigger roughly or did not keep my bow hand relaxed. Either way, I know I made a boo-boo when I see less than perfect arrow flight. I have not done a paper test with it yet. I guess I should to see what I get. 

Honestly, though, the bow has not been picky. It shoots BETTER when I make fewer mistakes, but I've had some shots that I know were less than perfect and the arrow still went where I'd wanted it. I did consider a Kazaway rest when I bought it. I might eventually go that route, too, if the Ripcord does prove troublesome, but for now all seems to be well. 

Maybe I haven't shot it enough yet, but this bow seems to be everything I'd wanted it to be.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I











rest my case


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## tmo (Feb 5, 2009)

walks with a gi said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DING DING DIING!!We have a winner !


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

Didn't have time to read all 12 pages, but here's my experience:

Had a Limbdriver on my 82nd and no matter what I did I always got a tail right tear (I'm a lefty). Today, I was about to say "screw it, I'll just sight in for my broadheads" but thought maybe I should try a different rest. So I pulled the Hostage off of my fiance's Razor's Edge and after four adjustments had bullet holes at every distance. Decided I was going to buy a capture type rest and went with a bisquit and got the same dang tail right tear. I'm gonna exchange for a Hostage tommorrow.

As for the canting of the arrow thing, I have no idea, I just know how to make mine shoot holes. 

Anybody have any explanation why I got holes with the Hostage and not the WB?


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## Norwegian (Sep 21, 2007)

*The problem is.....*



vegas steve said:


> i have had 2 sentinels,the first one was sent back to bowtech because it would not tune. the replacement shoots a whole lot better and paper tuned good,but there is a design flaw with these bows and i know what it is now. the sentinel riser has too much lateral flex and it is apparent when the cables are pulled over into the roller guard as supposed to being left relaxed off of the roller guard. all u guys with sentinels try taking your roller guard completely off and watch the riser on each end while u squeeze the cables towards the riser. u will see what I'm talking about. the only true solution for this problem is to change it to a shoot through cable system. i had my good sentinel sold,but the deal fell through so now I'm going to use this bow to experiment with a shoot through system to help the other sentinel owners out there pulling their hair out. i just acquired an additional sentinel cam that is needed for this conversion.i am sure that this will solve the dilemma with the sentinel tuning issues. i will fill u guys in as i get further along .


....just what is described here, the tip of the riser is deflecting to the right relative of the center line, at least that is my findings also.
But if this is due to poor machining or flex in the riser I haven't found out yet as I have not tried to remove the cables from the roller guard.

My Sentinel is hanging on the wall and mocking me every time I pass by, I wish I rather used the money to by a painting instead, nothing worse than having used your money on equipment that doesn't live up to expectations.

I have tried no side plates, one side plate and a torque free grip that I had lying around from my old Guardian with the same results, and no one is going to tell me that I have to grip this bow any different than my other bows, the problem lay with the bow in this case and not the indian.

And less that Bowtech have decided to make expensive wall ornaments they better start come up with a solution fast, and if that is to start producing the shoot trough system for the masses they should to make things right for their costumers, I know that I would easy pay for the solution as I really like this bow, but I won't shoot it as it is right now!!!


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

If there's anyone out there that is sitting quietly by and knows how to tune it, here's your chance for a second one. I'm letting my Sentinel go cheap. Probably $600. I don't know what else to do. Feel free to PM me


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

hey guys,check out the thread on "shoot thru's ,lets see them" ,i posted my solution with pics to the sentinal tuning issue. my senti shoots lights out now.the thread was originally posted by tmo.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

vegas steve said:


> i have had 2 sentinals,the first one was sent back to bowtech because it would not tune. the replacement shoots a whole lot better and paper tuned good,but there is a design flaw with these bows and i know what it is now. the sentinal riser has too much lateral flex and it is apparent when the cables are pulled over into the roller guard as upposed to being left relaxed off of the roller guard. all u guys with sentinals try taking your roller guard completly off and watch the riser on each end while u squeeze the cables twards the riser. u will see what i'm talking about. the only true solution for this problem is to change it to a shoot thru cable system. i had my good sentinal sold,but the deal fell thru so now i'm going to use this bow to experiment with a shoot thru system to help the other senti owners out there pulling their hair out. i just aquired an additional sentinal cam that is needed for this conversion.i am sure that this will solve the dilema with the sentinal tuning issues. i will fill u guys in as i get further along .


Im not sure bout all that, but My Sentenel shoots and tunes great for me. Im holding soft ball size groups at 50yards and it gets tighter of course on the way in. Ive shot four 600 Vegas rounds with low 50 x counts. Im not a Pro or even Semi, but I have finished in the top 15 in the MBO class in the first to triple leg Nationals. I have not touched the roller guard. Im not sure what every one is talking about. One of the most accurate and forgiving bows ive ever owned.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The new HingeGuard I made for my Admiral is shooting absolutely great for me. Arrow flight is much improved and any arrow off the mark is a verticle error now and that's just me with my freezing. My groupings are now much more verticle than horizontal. I won't be going back to the standard roller guard and will be working on an improved version this next week.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

i treid just about everything with my sentinel till someone advised me to cut back on the draw length....it worked! i went from 29.5 to 29.0, i can now shoot open handed and group out to 50 meters no problem. i sounds stupid but try it! it fells a little short now but it works and i also set it dead center the rest. the arrow still pionts a little left at full draw but who cares i am shooting better than ever. i would still lioke a shoot through system .


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

I've been hearing rumours that a solution may be at hand for inconsistencies with the way the Sentinel performs.
Rumour has it that there actually IS a problem with the riser as has been alluded to by a few people posting in this thread. Seems unlikely, but would explain many of the problems posted.
There could possibly be news from BT or a representitive within the coming week.
I'm on the edge of my seat!!!


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## JWT (Jan 3, 2006)

A quick way to check for flex is to tie a string from one end of the riser to the other so it is tight, draw the bow and see if it goes slack.


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## clg9mm (Nov 21, 2008)

*Ok*

and how reliable is this rumor???


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

my shoot thru will solve the sentinal and captain tuning issues


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

If Bowtech is exchanging bows to people that have this complaint, that may be a clue that they know there is a problem.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

yes,they will end up giving everyone another bow with the same problems


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

Just speculating, and assuming the riser is the cause. If the inconsistencies are exaggerated with the longer riser of the Sentinel, and the problem seems to be cured with the use of a shoot through design, then I would think the issue is either a twist or bend in the riser from the manufacturing process rather than any sort of flex.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

From what I'm finding with my Admiral, and I've made 4 different replacements for the original roller guide,, is that the more I allow the rollers to come in closer to the center of the bow the more I move the rest to the left. I think they went overboard on the fletching clearance with the standard roller guide bar. The more incrementially I allow the cables towards center the more centered the arrow is over the riser shelf and the better the arrow flight becomes. The string comes off the top cam much better also.

You would think the Sentinel would be better than the Admiral in theory. It takes about 16 pounds of force to pull the cables over as far as the rollers do at brace on the standard guide bar on my 60 pound bow. The Sentinel should be less with the less severe cable angles needed but then you have a lower brace height for more grip torque influx by the shooter. The issue here is actual tuneability for individual archers and how they naturally torque the grip. Some naturally imput a correct amount of pressure to counter excessive roller guard torque and some imput more pressure to compound the roller guide torque.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

I FINALLY got to shoot my Sentinel yesterday. Same issues for me as the Captain. The bow holds SOOOOO steady and is completely dead on the shot, but is not very forgiving at all. I have not tried bare-shaft tuning as of yet, but walk back and group tuning so far has been a challenge.

60 yard shooting I ALWAYS have one or two un-explainable flyers..... with this bow it is the same thing all over again.....horizontal group like the Captain.

I wish I knew the solution because from the 'how the bow feels' standpoint, this is the nicest bow I have ever owned....from the 'how the bow performs' standpoint....well, I hate to say it, but it plain out sucks...


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

"The more incrementially I allow the cables towards center the more centered the arrow is over the riser shelf and the better the arrow flight becomes. The string comes off the top cam much better also."
*******************************************************************************************************************************************************
This leads me to believe the riser IS flexing, but I have information that the same thing was achieved with the use of shims. 

Don't ask me where or how the shims were used because I was not told.

Either way tuneability(paper tuning) with the arrow at or close to center does not seem to be possible with Admiral, Captain, or Sentinel,(at least that is what I have seen personally) and the longer the riser the more exaggerated the problem.
I am fairly certain that the cause or trouble is with the riser.
I am aware that some bows have been returned to BT for inspection. Hopefully some info is pending at least from involved AT members.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

TAP said:


> I FINALLY got to shoot my Sentinel yesterday. Same issues for me as the Captain. The bow holds SOOOOO steady and is completely dead on the shot, but is not very forgiving at all. I have not tried bare-shaft tuning as of yet, but walk back and group tuning so far has been a challenge.
> 
> 60 yard shooting I ALWAYS have one or two un-explainable flyers..... with this bow it is the same thing all over again.....horizontal group like the Captain.
> 
> I wish I knew the solution because from the 'how the bow feels' standpoint, this is the nicest bow I have ever owned....from the 'how the bow performs' standpoint....well, I hate to say it, but it plain out sucks...


I agree 100%!!!!! Everything about the Sentinel is great except...............well you know.:sad:


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

Shouldn't you be working Chuck?


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## cabotvt (Jul 23, 2007)

Bought a Captain last week took about 1 hour to level all accessories couple twist on the cable to time shoots like a dream. Bought a 101st last year still have it setup the same way shoots great for a fast bow. I will say the cable coming off the roller is a pain I see it in my scope other then that it's going to put a whoopin on the deer. Same arrow/weight as my trade-in (DXT) 10 foot pounds more "K" now thats all right.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

we should all send em back and see what happens


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## ProCoach (Jun 21, 2005)

*Sentinel tuneability*

When I started to research this problem, I started with my own 2009 Sentinel. I found that I was having the same issues, as many of you are, with my arrow pointing out to the left at full draw.

I checked out my wife's 2009 Admiral and found that her bow did not have this problem. Only two things were different; the draw weight and the length of the riser. In checking the bows that I have in stock, I found that the lower draw weight bows (40 lbs) all seemed to stay in alignment from rest to full draw. This told me that, at lower draw weight, there was not enough applied side torque to effect the tune of the bow.

On the 40lb Admiral, if you sighted the string with the center of the riser (top and bottom), the string runs through the center of the grip (as it should). I then did the same with my 52lb Sentinel and found that the string was showing 1/8" to the right of center on my grip. I checked another stock Sentinel and found the same result. I then removed the 'E' clip from the cable rolers and then checked it again and discovered that I now had perfect alignment. This tells me that I am getting side flex in the Sentinel riser. This meant that the riser was flexing to the right at the top and bottom and pushing the grip section out to the left. This only becomes more pronounced as to come to full draw; hence, arrow points to the left. I did this same exercise with other bows in stock: Hoyt, PSE, Martin, Alpine and Browning. I set the center shot, did a visual inspection, then released the cables and there was no change at all on any of these bows. I then layed my Sentinel down on the bench with the cutout facing the table and pressed lightly on the side of the riser (just above the axis point) using two fingers. The amount of flex that was visible was far more than one would expect and was more than any of the other bows that I tested.

As a pro shooter or bow tech, you learn that the first thing that you set up on a bow is your cable guard. You set it so that you have minimal acceptable fletch clearance which, in turn, gives you a desired minimal amount of applied side torque. Most bows now do not allow you do do this.

I tried an experiment by removing the cable guard post from the riser and I placed a .06 thick washer between the post and the riser on the first bolt only (furthest from the archer). When you re-tighten the two bolts, the spacer washer causes the cable guard arm to allign itself closser to the string and thus induces less torque. You will notice now that the cable guard arm is at a slight angle towards the string. 

I set my center shot with a laser and drew the bow back to full draw and the arrow point is now sitting perfectly down the center; not off to the left as it was before. The amount of reduced torque was enough to cure the issue. This is a bandaid temporary cure that needs to be addressed.

My last issue as to the amount of side flex is this: The riser is forged and this is to ensure that the riser is as strong as it can be (stronger than a totaly machined riser). The molecular structure is maintained from top to bottom. If you look at the axis point of the grip, you will see that Bowtech machined out, at 90 degrees, a large part of the riser so that they could incorporate the side plate grips. This is a total no no..............they have now partialy destroyed the integrity of the strength of the riser at this point. I have shown this to another engineer friend of mine and he totaly agrees with me on all points of this. This is a huge reason for the amount of side flex.

I agree that a shoot through system is the best system of all and it is one that I have used extensively on numerous bows with great success. I will be field testing my new setup on Monday at longer distances to test for forgiveness. Can't get away from the shop and the customers that keep me going until then. Short range (20yds) is very tight.

I have been talking to the Design Engineers at BowTech this past week and will be talking to them again on Monday.

Good shooting everyone ........ one arrow at a time.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

with the shoot thru installed,the lateral torque on the cables is equalized or neutral because the cables are pulled away from each other and cancel out the riser flex on the 09' centerpivots. once the riser torque is eliminated,the forgiveness and tunability comes back. i haven't seen anything else out there yet that corrects this problem like a shoot thru does.


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't own a Captain or Sentinel, should I bother purchasing one?


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

vegas steve said:


> with the shoot thru installed,the lateral torque on the cables is equalized or neutral because the cables are pulled away from each other and cancel out the riser flex on the 09' centerpivots. once the riser torque is eliminated,the forgiveness and tunability comes back. i haven't seen anything else out there yet that corrects this problem like a shoot thru does.


That makes sense. So do you think BT will offer a shoot through of some sort to counter act riser flex with the Sentinel or am I on my own.
Also do you think BT will alter the amount of material removed at the top of the grip to strengthen the riser? It(the riser) does flex considerably when layed on a flat surface and a small amount of downward pressure is applied compared to other bows I have available at the moment.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

MoNofletch said:


> I don't own a Captain or Sentinel, should I bother purchasing one?


I would hold off and see what happens. It is though, without a doubt, the nicest bow I have ever shot!(the Sentinal that is)


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

ProCoach said:


> When I started to research this problem, I started with my own 2009 Sentinel. I found that I was having the same issues, as many of you are, with my arrow pointing out to the left at full draw.
> 
> I checked out my wife's 2009 Admiral and found that her bow did not have this problem. Only two things were different; the draw weight and the length of the riser. In checking the bows that I have in stock, I found that the lower draw weight bows (40 lbs) all seemed to stay in alignment from rest to full draw. This told me that, at lower draw weight, there was not enough applied side torque to effect the tune of the bow.
> 
> ...


 I'd like to add that the roller guard is about 4 inches long so you can almost mutiply the actual pressure of 16 pounds of force of the cables for a 60 pound bow at brace by 4 at the riser. That's almost 64 pounds of lateral torque, at brace at the riser mounting. It's actually much more than that at full draw.
I think the shoot through is the ticket for the Sentinel but the shorter bows will have problems with cable clearance and tracking at the cams.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

For everyone that is having problems tuning these bows, get a long enough 10 X 24 bolt, nut and washers that you can use to shim out the rollers 1/4". Try shooting some this way and you'll probably see that your rest needs to be moved out. I made another piece for my HingeGuard today and it allows the rollers to get closer to the shaft at full draw. It's shooting VERY well!!


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

the senti and the captain work great when converted to a shoot thru. i haven't tried it on an admiral yet. i've also done numerous guardians and they all shot fantastic,heck thats how i have my guardian set up for hunting. walks with a gi's flexible roller guard is also a great idea to help with lateral torque. his may be a better choice for an admiral than the shoot thru because of the short ata. s soon as i get ahold of an admiral to try one out on it,i'll let everyone know how it worked.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

vegas steve said:


> the senti and the captain work great when converted to a shoot thru. i haven't tried it on an admiral yet. i've also done numerous guardians and they all shot fantastic,heck thats how i have my guardian set up for hunting. walks with a gi's flexible roller guard is also a great idea to help with lateral torque. his may be a better choice for an admiral than the shoot thru because of the short ata. s soon as i get ahold of an admiral to try one out on it,i'll let everyone know how it worked.


 I still have my shoot through system for my Guardian and it worked very well. For hunting though, I didn't want the cable rubbing on a heavy jacket sleeve when drawing on game.


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## Nightimer (Jan 22, 2003)

I do some part time work in a archery shop in the UK.
It happens that I was setting up a Sentinal for a LADY customer last week.
I had no problems at all with it, maybe because it was only shooting at 33lb!!
I wonder if would been as hassle free at 53lb.

Nightimer


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## Firefighter1868 (May 11, 2009)

*tribute*

My brother has a tribute. The only way he could get it to paper tune is to mount the sight on the opposite side of the riser than it is suppose to go. Dont understand why' but it's so accurate now that he's winning the b class in BHA.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Firefighter1868 said:


> My brother has a tribute. The only way he could get it to paper tune is to mount the sight on the opposite side of the riser than it is suppose to go. Dont understand why' but it's so accurate now that he's winning the b class in BHA.


well whatever works but I'd say that bow has some serious issues. LMAO


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

well finaly someone has it figured out!!!!! so bowtech what are you gonna do??? i have mailed bowtech several times asking for a shoot through system but recieve no awnser...


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## rackbuster (Jul 5, 2009)

*Not just bowtech*

I have two high country iron mace no matter what i do get a bad left tear any ideas would be helpfull


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

rackbuster said:


> I have two high country iron mace no matter what i do get a bad left tear any ideas would be helpfull


 I firmly believe it's the roller guard, can you change the amount of pull on the Iron Mace? I keep making changes to mine to allow the cables to come in and the arrow flight gets better and better. I'm to the point now to just make a solid roller guard bar that sits in about 5/16" closer to the arrow than a stock roller bar and try that.


At full draw the spring is at solid height, there is a smaller spring inside the large spring.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I looked on-line last night to find the correct spring for this application and I think I'd need a 35 pound spring at solid height that is 1.375" long at free height.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

i like it


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Pretty slick! Is it worth all the hassle though? Why not just go with a bow that has a riser matched to the bow's 'stress' points? Hoyt, Mathews, PSE.....


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

cath8r said:


> Pretty slick! Is it worth all the hassle though? Why not just go with a bow that has a riser matched to the bow's 'stress' points? Hoyt, Mathews, PSE.....


Bingo!!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

cath8r said:


> Pretty slick! Is it worth all the hassle though? Why not just go with a bow that has a riser matched to the bow's 'stress' points? Hoyt, Mathews, PSE.....


 Sorry but you don't know me,, I can't leave anything alone if I get an idea to improve something with my archery equipment
This is my first bow with a roller guard so the tuning I've done with it was different. I've also taken note of other people's equipment and observed a number of other bows with roller guards that seem to be "tuned inside". 

I enjoy working on bows,, maybe even more than shooting them so no, it's not a hassle at all. I also enjoy sharing thoughts with equipment so that maybe what we have to choose from in the future will be better.. Not saying that this idea is that much better than what's currently available but it seems like a good improvement in my arrow flight. I'd like to make something more compact and appealing to go on my bow so I'm not done yet:darkbeer:


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

I would be happy if BT would supply me with a factory made shoot through roller guard. I would gladly pay for it if it got my Sentinel tuning and shooting correctly. It would seem like a simple thing seeing BT has already produced a least a few.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

Well I'm tired of messing with mine. If anyone's interested, mine is for sale. I just don't have the time to keep trying to get it to shoot better. Bowtech has turned me into a H*** shooter again.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> I firmly believe it's the roller guard, can you change the amount of pull on the Iron Mace? I keep making changes to mine to allow the cables to come in and the arrow flight gets better and better. I'm to the point now to just make a solid roller guard bar that sits in about 5/16" closer to the arrow than a stock roller bar and try that.
> 
> 
> At full draw the spring is at solid height, there is a smaller spring inside the large spring.


Dr. Frankenstien has been awaken. :wink: The wheels never stop turning do they?:shade: Keep on rollin.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

bt didn't offer the shoot thru to the public because doing so proves that they know about the riser flex and don't want to address it. my shoot thru is better than bt's because mine still captivates the cables like the stock rollerguard does. if u look close at bt's,theirs has fully exposed rollers with no captivation and the cables could fly out of the rollers upon release and be catastrofic.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

vegas steve said:


> bt didn't offer the shoot thru to the public because doing so proves that they know about the riser flex and don't want to address it. my shoot thru is better than bt's because mine still captivates the cables like the stock rollerguard does. if u look close at bt's,theirs has fully exposed rollers with no captivation and the cables could fly out of the rollers upon release and be catastrofic.


I gotta come to their rescue here. Their design works great. When you split the cables like that and remove the side torque there is no real issue for the cables to jump the roller. The only thing that I would change with the design would be to have it lower. Like where the string supressor is and to make it adjustable. The adjustable thing isn't too big an issue but makes tuning real nice. 

I wish that BT would revisit the 08 Cammander cam. That way they could offer the shoot through to everyone with it being just an add on and not having to change the cam out. That is why the 07 shoot through wasn't as effective as the 08.


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

vegas steve said:


> bt didn't offer the shoot thru to the public because doing so proves that they know about the riser flex and don't want to address it. my shoot thru is better than bt's because mine still captivates the cables like the stock rollerguard does. if u look close at bt's,theirs has fully exposed rollers with no captivation and the cables could fly out of the rollers upon release and be catastrofic.


Actually the one they had at the ATA show had the cables contained in exactly the same manner as the stock rollers- with aluminum in front of it (load the cables by removing the e clip).

It was also adjustable- basically an arm straight back and then to the left (an "L" shape). The back track was slotted and the rollers could be moved in and out depending on what clearance you needed.

I know they have done some different versions since then as well which just have the rollers exposed.

Not a thing wrong with the one they first showed other than not offering it!


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

the one i saw had open rollers. looked dangerous to me.


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## pokeyl (Dec 2, 2008)

walks with a gi said:


> I looked on-line last night to find the correct spring for this application and I think I'd need a 35 pound spring at solid height that is 1.375" long at free height.


I"d like to know the if you have any left/right errors from the spring inputs back into the riser? and the total distance the roller moves inboard??


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

NO right/left errors from the shot. The arrow hits where the pin is when the shot goes. The rollers come in another 1/8 " to 3/16" at full draw from where they start out at brace. The spring coil binds at full draw and that is the limiter. Like I said, the correct spring would make it complete and very adjustable. I can control my left / right point of impact with the HingeGuard by the adjustment screw. I want to make a nice one that's smaller and more appealing with the screw reversed and threaded into an aluminum sleeve in the end of the spring:darkbeer:


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## Gary73 (Jan 11, 2008)

I gave up trying to tune my Admiral months ago. I set the nock level, get the centre shot sorted with a centre shot tool and sight in my field points and then screw in Atoms when its time to hunt. 

My bows in spec and the cams are in sync. Maxed out its running 73lbs 29 1/4" draw. I have Beman 340 spine arrows at 28.5" with 100gr fp/Bh. 

The Admiral is my last Bowtech, I am moving onto another manufacturer for next years bows.

Good luck getting these bows tuned, its beaten me.


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## Archer247 (Feb 18, 2008)

I just can't help myself,but to sit here and read about guys adding washers,adding tape, and making parts.To everyone that is doing this, you just spent $800.00 or more for this bow and your o.k. with fixing bowtecs problem and voiding your warranty.Anybody who is having a problem should be sending the bow back to bowtec and be adimit about the problem with your bow to bowtec.To those of you not having any problems congrads.But it is possible that a number of these bows went out with a problem that quality control did not pick up on.And to you tec heads that are figuring out different solutions to these bows, I think bowtec should put you guys on the payroll.But until then send them back,if bowtec gets enough back they should start jumping at the problem.Hopefully.Once again good luck to all and we will keep our fingers crossed for an answer.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

most guys can't go without their bows for that long. turnaround at bowtech is probably about 2 months,


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Here's proto number 4 It's inset 5/16 " from the standard roller guard bracket and it's shooting very well. I still have clearance for 4 inch vanes and the point of impact is on the money at 40 yards. Last night with the HingeGuard and it set for minimum clearance, it was shooting about 2 inches to the right, dead on now with the inset roller guard.

Here's the difference..


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Heere's another look..


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Top view I think.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

On the bow I think so..


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## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

vegas steve said:


> most guys can't go without their bows for that long. turnaround at bowtech is probably about 2 months,


Turn around is running a little over a week (as of a couple of weeks ago).

A buddy sent his in and had it back in 3 weeks (4 days shipping time there and 4 days shipping time back in this area).


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Other side,,, I think I dropped those rollers a hundred times on the concrete floor


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Last pic of an arrow on the rest,, light getting bad for this pic


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

let me get this strait....the roller gaurd is to far outside and causes so much tourqe that the riser flexs because it was maschined wrong....correct???...has anyone gotten a awnser from bowtech and those who have sent there bow in what did they do? i bought mine on vacation at the factory and live in germany, do you have any idea what a pain in the a.. it is to ship my bow back not to mention the price..over here there is not one dealer that has the now how on bowtech to help me...probably not anyone in europe can help me so i am hopeing you all can help me..and to think i switched from hoyt for this bow...


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Archer247 said:


> I just can't help myself,but to sit here and read about guys adding washers,adding tape, and making parts.To everyone that is doing this, you just spent $800.00 or more for this bow and your o.k. with fixing bowtecs problem and voiding your warranty.Anybody who is having a problem should be sending the bow back to bowtec and be adimit about the problem with your bow to bowtec.To those of you not having any problems congrads.But it is possible that a number of these bows went out with a problem that quality control did not pick up on.And to you tec heads that are figuring out different solutions to these bows, I think bowtec should put you guys on the payroll.But until then send them back,if bowtec gets enough back they should start jumping at the problem.Hopefully.Once again good luck to all and we will keep our fingers crossed for an answer.


You are 100% correct and this should be for any product from any company no matter what you spend on it.

But on the other hand. You are witnessing minds in motion. Those that see an issue and want to resolve it themselves. I made a good bow into a great bow with less effort but had a better base. These guys are what keeps the designers on their toes. Designers can create the best product ever on paper but it is those in the trenches that take that great idea and find better ones. Because, to the designers credit, they created a good base to start. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be able to have patent infringment. :wink:


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## mathews#1 (Feb 23, 2003)

lost american said:


> let me get this strait....the roller gaurd is to far outside and causes so much tourqe that the riser flexs because it was maschined wrong....correct???...has anyone gotten a awnser from bowtech and those who have sent there bow in what did they do? i bought mine on vacation at the factory and live in germany, do you have any idea what a pain in the a.. it is to ship my bow back not to mention the price..over here there is not one dealer that has the now how on bowtech to help me...probably not anyone in europe can help me so i am hopeing you all can help me..and to think i switched from hoyt for this bow...


I finaly got a call from a guy at Bowtech and i told him about what i read because i am in the market to buy my 13 year old a new bow and he ask me where did i read it from and i told him AT and he asked me how long have i been on AT and i told him for years and then he said then you should know you can't beleave everything you hear on there because people on there complain about any little thing and there is nothing wrong with the bow exspecialy the Captain. So i asked him some questions But to me he didn't sound to convencing almost like he was trying not to really answer me or my question. He told me if you don't want to tune your bow right as every bow and it don't matter who makes the bow they all need to be tune right even right from the factory and if you are not willing to do that then maybe you should look at one of our other bow like maybe the SWAT for your son or look at our diamond bows. I don't know about anybody else but to me it don't sound like they are going to do anything about the Captain issues or any of the other bow that people are having trouble with they are saying there is nothing wrong with the bow and i asked why don't they go on AT and ask people what is wrong and try helping them and he said they don't make a habbit of going on Web site like AT because you will not please everybody. All i have to say is i will stay with my Mathews but the only thing about a Mathews i don't like is they don't make a bow with the draw length adjustment like the Bowtech Captain has and that is what i want because i can't a ford buying my son a bow everytime he gets bigger and he is only 13 soon to be 14 and that is why i don't want to buy him a mathews because the way he is growing i will be broke for the next 5 years and that means i will not be able to buy me and new bow LOL Well good luck to everybody and maybe they do look on AT and read some of the people complants :secret: and will do something to the next batch of there bows


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Have you looked at either the Iceman or the Razor Edge. Both great bows that will grow with him.

As for AT and Manufacturers. They all pretty much feel the same way. They all have someone that monitors the discussions but very few will allow employees to make comments. Unfortunately it usually turns into a pi**ing contest. Of course the manufacturer is going to be defensive. When all is positive it's fine it's when they get attacked that there become issues.

Good luck.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

mathews#1 said:


> I finaly got a call from a guy at Bowtech and i told him about what i read because i am in the market to buy my 13 year old a new bow and he ask me where did i read it from and i told him AT and he asked me how long have i been on AT and i told him for years and then he said then you should know you can't beleave everything you hear on there because people on there complain about any little thing and there is nothing wrong with the bow exspecialy the Captain. So i asked him some questions But to me he didn't sound to convencing almost like he was trying not to really answer me or my question. He told me if you don't want to tune your bow right as every bow and it don't matter who makes the bow they all need to be tune right even right from the factory and if you are not willing to do that then maybe you should look at one of our other bow like maybe the SWAT for your son or look at our diamond bows. I don't know about anybody else but to me it don't sound like they are going to do anything about the Captain issues or any of the other bow that people are having trouble with they are saying there is nothing wrong with the bow and i asked why don't they go on AT and ask people what is wrong and try helping them and he said they don't make a habbit of going on Web site like AT because you will not please everybody. All i have to say is i will stay with my Mathews but the only thing about a Mathews i don't like is they don't make a bow with the draw length adjustment like the Bowtech Captain has and that is what i want because i can't a ford buying my son a bow evertime he gets bigger and he is only 13 soon to be 14 and that is why i don't want to buy him a mathews because the way he is growing i will be broke for the next 5 years and that means i will not be able to buy me and new bow LOL Well good luck to everybody and maybe they do look on AT and read some of the people complants :secret: and will do something to the next batch of there bows


Oh....they watch these forums make no mistake. The problem is that BowTech might have their focus on a market that isn't condusive to the higher end target archery market. I think their focus is on the 'Hunter, 3d'er' whom isn't perhaps as critical of the little things. I am not saying that myself or any of the other people with problems are any better of a shot, simply that some people (like myself) CAN INFACT tell the difference when a shot goes awry that shouldn't have. No-One that I am aware of in this thread is trashing Bowtech, we are simply looking for a solution to make our bows more forgiving. 

The other problem is when people chime in and say their bow shoots 'Lights Out'.....it seems for every ONE of them there is, it wipes the TEN people off the map whom are having legitimate issues. This is why I think BowTech mayeb has their sights set on a different market than we are all used to.

My Captain is still at Bowtech and I am hoping and Confident they will find the problem and fix it for me. I have had some correspondence and it all looks promising.

Don't write them off. Keep in mind ANY and ALL contact should be performed through your dealer. Most companies will not deal directly with the public, so it isn't out of the oridnary for you to not hear back.


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

sounds like i am screwed...there is no german dealer that will help me with a bow i didnt buy by them..looks like i am alone on this..


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Well I've shot this one a bunch and it's sweet. I beveled off the outer edges and it's going to get anodized along with the stopper rod I made to replace the factory carbon tube. The cables run very close to the 3/8" rod on this bow and it would be rubbing hard on the factory string suppressor tube. 

This set up will be going tree climbing with me soon!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

lost american said:


> sounds like i am screwed...there is no german dealer that will help me with a bow i didnt buy by them..looks like i am alone on this..


 One thing anyone can do,, and it won't void the warranty is to make a different side plate for your grip. Make one that will counter the torque of the roller guard and you will see a difference in the way it shoots. If you're right handed, build up the outer/base thumb area so your natural hand position will pressure the out side of the grip to apply counter acting forces to the roller guard.

I've said before that you can build up with tape or maybe even use the Sims rubber strip to try something new. These are very good bows but with a little ergonomic issue that when overcome, become GREAT bows!


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

check out the pics of the captain that i just finished converting to a shoot thru on the "shoot thru's pics n post" thread


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

ttt


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

thanks for info i will toy with that some, mess with tape and stuff till i get it right then make that form out of wood...


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

I have ordered some lighter limbs(50lbs.) It is time do go down 10 lbs. anyway. It has become a strain to shoot a 900 round. I am hopeful that the lighter limbs will solve the riser flex problem as well as my shoulder issues. I am presently shooting my Sentinel at 55lbs. I think I will be happy at 50lbs.
I will report back if there is any difference. If there is, it will be conclusive evidence won't it?
I am still waiting to hear back from BT's CS through my pro shop regarding the problems I am having. 
:dontknow:


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## Dextreme (Jul 7, 2005)

TAP, any updates from Bowtech yet?


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## Montana Rawhide (Jul 13, 2006)

Of the Bowtech's I've had, Guardian, Commander, Allegiance, ( wife has an Equalizer ), the two Captains I have now are the easiest to tune and best shooting Bowtechs that I've ever had.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

vegas steve said:


> check out the pics of the captain that i just finished converting to a shoot thru on the "shoot thru's pics n post" thread


How much is this system for the sentinel...I have a friend having the same issues!


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Picking up the Captain this afternoon at the shop. It better be right being that it was gone almost a month. The Sentinel was shipped back to them also....wonder how long that will be there?


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

TAP said:


> Picking up the Captain this afternoon at the shop. It better be right being that it was gone almost a month. The Sentinel was shipped back to them also....wonder how long that will be there?


Keep us posted.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Ok*

I am weighing in here on this one. 

Since they, BowTech, put roller guards on the bows this is the case. I thought it was me, but it is not. After two years of roller
guards and having to set the rests inside to have them shoot an arrow straight out of the bow, I think they may be listening.

When the Airbornes came out I could not get the left tear out of them. Until I moved the rest to the inside of center. Quite a bit. And your grip has to be across the fat of your thumb, not the palm at all! Let the bow float across your thumb pad. It will tune fine shooting it that way. 

I called BowTech to discuss it and they did not acknowledge a problem. You are correct. You can pull the bow back with a hooter shooter and it will turn as the bows is drawn back. It opens up. The Mathews monster does the same thing. 

Most of the new bowtechs do this. It is the combination of binary cams and the cable rollers. Say goodbye to the cable rollers and you will see them tune better. The new SWAT and the SNIPER do not do this. Cable rods.

The Allegiance and the Tribute both tuned a hair to the OUTSIDE. Main difference? They have slides. BowTech needs to get back to the cable slide with Binary cam bows. That is my opinion.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

amarchery said:


> I am weighing in here on this one.
> 
> Since they, BowTech, put roller guards on the bows this is the case. I thought it was me, but it is not. After two years of roller
> guards and having to set the rests inside to have them shoot an arrow straight out of the bow, I think they may be listening.
> ...


All good observations. But you forget the one most important part of the equation. THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ANY OF THE BOWS. :shade::tongue:

You either don't know how to tune them or you just can't shoot that good. It's obvious.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*tuning*



Montana Rawhide said:


> Of the Bowtech's I've had, Guardian, Commander, Allegiance, ( wife has an Equalizer ), the two Captains I have now are the easiest to tune and best shooting Bowtechs that I've ever had.


What method of tuning? If it does not bother you the nock coming out left out of the bow, then they are easy to tune down the center. It will "tune" dead center if that is the case. But if you want the arrow coming straight out of the bow, chances are it will not when the arrow rest is dead center. 

Properly spined arrow, dead center, the arrow will nock left coming out. I start with paper tuning up close and shoot through paper back to 20 yds. The only way you can correct it with a grip is to torque the riser open. And it takes a lot.

The bows tune perfect. Just the rest winds up inside of center. Your prior bows did not need that. Guardian, cable slide, Commander, cable slide, Allegiance, slide, Equalizer, slide. That is one thing in common those bows have. The slide.

We can argue "Walk-Back" tuning as opposed to starting at paper. You give me a bow tearing an inch left and I will show you the broadhead going to the right of the mark. Do both. Shoot in paper all of the way back to 20 yds. Get that punching holes and odds are, you are good with your broadheads and your walk-back tuning.

Sorry for so long but we have been aware of the BowTech grip thing for a while now. Some say dead center with the rest, and I say no way.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Ok*



USNarcher said:


> All good observations. But you forget the one most important part of the equation. THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ANY OF THE BOWS. :shade::tongue:
> 
> You either don't know how to tune them or you just can't shoot that good. It's obvious.


Probably both. 

Thanks for the response. And I enjoyed shooting with you and tuning with you. 

It is obvious you absolutely love BowTech bows. I do also. I sell them. But there are issues. Have you ever paper tuned one? Ever shoot broadheads? Or do you just shoot paper?

You have a nice signature line and deserve some respect. So do I................ Sir.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

amarchery said:


> Probably both.
> 
> Thanks for the response. And I enjoyed shooting with you and tuning with you.
> 
> ...


I was being sarcastic. Sorry if you took it different.  My mug shot is on the board at the factory as public enemy number one. :shade: My main goal is to have them make the product that I know that they are capable of.

Once again sorry if you took my other post too serious. :tongue:


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> All good observations. But you forget the one most important part of the equation. THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ANY OF THE BOWS. :shade::tongue:
> 
> You either don't know how to tune them or you just can't shoot that good. It's obvious.



there's always one idiot in the group


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> there's always an idiot in the group :sigh:


Think before you post. It helps.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> Think before you post. It helps.


I'm not like a little navy boy- I do


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> I'm not like a little navy boy- I do


That is funny. But if you don't know someone then you might not want to call them an idiot. But if you feel that it's necassary then by all means.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> That is funny. But if you don't know someone then you might not want to call them an ______. But if you feel that it's necassary (spelling- necessary) then by all means.


why don't you follow your own advice please. Also- use some intelligence- I know your commander does the thinking for you- but come on. So many posting about these problems- must be something to them.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*guys*

come on guys. That is alright USN. I have a good sense of humor. Just didnt catch it that time. 

Lets lay it out there on the BowTech Center Pivot bows. WITH ROLLER GUARDS! First off they are an awesome design. Quiet, stable, plenty fast, and they will shoot. I like the overall. But they have a center shot issue. 

We sell a lot of them and we tune EVERY bow we sell. As we should. 2008 came the roller guard. Along with it cam the Ariborne birth. My dealer bow was a 2008 82nd Airborne in Max 4. 60# max bow. 

Bow came in and I worked hours upon hours trying to figure out why the center shot was not the center! If you paper tune your bow when you get it set up, as I do, these bows have a VERY difficult time paper tuning properly if set up square. The bow opened up as I drew it back. And I could never get the bow to quit doing it. IF you hold and grip tight and keep it from twisting, the tear in the paper was unreal.

I will make a video showing this. I just finished a video on installing and tuning a QAD rest on a BowTech Admiral. My personal bow. 70# bow set on 64#, 28 inch draw. The QAD is set to the inside to tune properly.

Allow the bow to float in your hand, and shoot it. I will have it up soon. I do not know everything, but this I do know. BowTech center pivot bows are not setting up center and tuning well. Bottom Line. They will shoot great with the rest set to the inside of center. Period.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> why don't you follow your own advice please


I didn't call anyone an idiot. I was mocking what the company line is from the bow manufacturer. People are frustrated with their bows and aren't getting any help. And then there are those that chime in without any dog in the fight and make comments. It's a free country.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> And then there are those that chime in without any dog in the fight and make comments. It's a free country.


I lost the fight with my admiral- sold it and got my Elite. BT will never admit to a problem due to the high cost for repairing everyone's bows.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> Also- use some intelligence- I know your commander does the thinking for you- but come on. So many posting about these problems- must be something to them.


And what makes you so qualified that you can make a logical comment on the issues of the 09 Bowtechs. Instead of cutting people down try to make a positive contribution. Otherwise just continue being yourself.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

Didn't I "chime" in because of you cutting someone else down- genius. stop posting. you're to dumb to speak.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> I lost the fight with my admiral- sold it and got my Elite. BT will never admit to a problem due to the high cost for repairing everyone's bows.



And you are the person that I have been fighting with the factory for since these bows hit the streets. I don't want to see anyone pay $850 for a bow that doesn't perform and have to go buy another one. For six months I have put my reputation and staff position on the line for a fix. I'm glad that you have a bow that you can shoot now.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

b_vanfossen said:


> I lost the fight with my admiral- sold it and got my Elite. BT will never admit to a problem due to the high cost for repairing everyone's bows.


I cant get off of this thread due to the fact that I am like the Navy fella. Dealers have known the issues from day one with no change in the situation.

I know why, and dont take this personal if you are from BowTech or anyone with the BowTech group. My Sales Rep from BowTech is AWESOME! Best I have ever had. You know who you are.

You have to believe in your product to sell it. You have committed to a design and it is out there for 12 months for sale. If you do not paper tune your bow you may not know the severe degree the arrow is coming out. It may group fine with field points and may actually shoot broadheads OK. (They will vear to the right, reset your sights for hunting )

The bows are great. There needs to be a switch back to a slide with the binary system. There is a reason Kevin Strother has not went to a roller guard.

Shoot a SWAT bow. Awesome shooting bow. Tack driver. But the center pivot? I have to KNOW they are shooting the arrow straight out of the bow. Find out for yourself. When set, they are awesome.

Paper tuning? Even if you dont agree with it, try it. If nothing else it is like hitting a baseball off of a tee when you are a pro. It is form. Shoot through paper to get your grip consistent. And then notice the arrow tear.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

USNarcher said:


> And you are the person that I have been fighting with the factory for since these bows hit the streets. I don't want to see anyone pay $850 for a bow that doesn't perform and have to go buy another one. For six months I have put my reputation and staff position on the line for a fix. I'm glad that you have a bow that you can shoot now.


didn't you chime in saying that these bows do not have a problem? That the other member can't shoot and doesn't know what he was doing?. I quit following this thread after I sold my bow, but I did happen to notice that one post of yours. So maybe I took it wrong and you were joking- If so then I apologize. which I'm man enough to admit.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

b_vanfossen said:


> didn't you chime in saying that these bows do not have a problem? That the other member can't shoot and doesn't know what he was doing?. I quit following this thread after I sold my bow, but I did happen to notice that one post of yours. So maybe I took it wrong and you were joking- If so then I apologize. which I'm man enough to admit.


You were right I did say that. Why because that is what the factory told me, someone that has been a staff shooter for them for 7 years. It was sarcasm. Would you give up a staff position with a bow company that you served for 7 years because others were having prolems with their bow and were not getting any help? Other staff shooters could not get these bows to shoot either. So I felt that I had to make a statement and gave it all up in the hopes that they would fix a problem. So if I am an idiot then so be it. I have stuck up for hundreds of loyal BT shooters that needed help.


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## backstrap steve (Feb 27, 2008)

Ok there b vanfossen. Let's settle down. Its men and women that serve our country that make it possible to have a free discussion or shoot a bow or even breath free air. Instead of calling names. You should be thinking him for all he has done. In the service and with bowtech. If there weren't people like him you wouldn't be able to hunt or speak your mind. If you can't be productive on this thread than find one you can. There are a lot of people reading this that want to get a problem figured out. Have a little respect man.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

backstrap steve said:


> Ok there b vanfossen. Let's settle down. Its men and women that serve our country that make it possible to have a free discussion or shoot a bow or even breath free air. Instead of calling names. You should be thinking him for all he has done. In the service and with bowtech. If there weren't people like him you wouldn't be able to hunt or speak your mind. If you can't be productive on this thread than find one you can. There are a lot of people reading this that want to get a problem figured out. Have a little respect man.


I apologized to you. I don't like it when someone makes those kind of comments and dish it to them. I couldn't shoot tournys with a bow I'm not confident in. I don't blame you for leaving them.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*older bows*

Allegiance
Guardian
Commander
Constitution
etc etc

They all shoot awesome . So what does BowTech do? Everyone looks at a cable slide and thinks it is old technology. Well so is a rubber tire.  It is still a rubber tire with wire in it. It works.

They need cable slides on all of their bows. That is one thing. They will get tired of the calls and guys asking why their sight are set way out to the left of their strings. Dont ya think?


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

amarchery said:


> Allegiance
> Guardian
> Commander
> Constitution
> ...


I sure hope they get tired of it because I'm tired of looking at a 2009 bow I spent $800 on that isn't worth half that now. I am way against bashing here on AT but Bowtech seriously screwed up and it stinks they won't admit it or attempt to fix it. I snagged up another quality name bow (that actually tunes) and shot my highest field score the second time i touched the bow. I will tell everyone that asks me exactly what I think of Bowtech anytime I'm asked. Actually i get asked about anytime anyone sees me because they expect me to have a Sentinel in my hands. 

Sorry for the harsh post but had to get that off my chest. Hopefully the same rep that told my dealer to silence me on here initially, reads this post and notices they lost at least one more shooter for good. I can't honestly go back to purchasing a new bow from them after this experience. It just seems too risky.

I got tons of respect for you Mr. USNArcher. I know you are only trying to do the right thing and the readers owes you for your honesty.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

whatttt.. I read nearly ever post on these 14 pages and this is how it ends!!!
did TAP ever post on how his captain shot after he got it back from BT?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Tap is not happy at ALL with his Captain OR his Sentinel. Apparantly according the Bowtech I just don't know how to shoot a bow! That's the final verdict.

As far as I am concerned Bowtech has gone down the wrong road. You can read hundreds of posts about these bows from people shooting WAY inside center to extremely weak arrows......then there is their whole advertising campaign about how accurate and forgiving blah blah blah.....

Then their final word to me is that the bow is EXTREMELY sensative to grip......well in my experience this means unforgiving and goes directly against how shootable this bow is suppose to be.

I have gone as far as to put a cable rod on it and it STILL doesn't tune. The ONLY way this bow is ever going to tune is with a shoot thru, but I will NOT spend another 100+$ on a bow that cost nearly $800 to start to get it to shoot.


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## jpm_mq2 (May 22, 2004)

TAP said:


> Tap is not happy at ALL with his Captain OR his Sentinel. Apparantly according the Bowtech I just don't know how to shoot a bow! That's the final verdict.
> 
> As far as I am concerned Bowtech has gone down the wrong road. You can read hundreds of posts about these bows from people shooting WAY inside center to extremely weak arrows......then there is their whole advertising campaign about how accurate and forgiving blah blah blah.....
> 
> ...


You have gone as far as to put a cable rod on it and it still doesn't tune??? I thought the roller guard was the problem?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

jpm_mq2 said:


> You have gone as far as to put a cable rod on it and it still doesn't tune??? I thought the roller guard was the problem?


The problem is not the roller guard. The problem is the cam! it is too wide and causes too much torque from its design. Now I can see why the only way to tune these bows is to use two of the same cams and a shoot thru system....


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Tap, have you experimented with a weaker spine in your Captain? Just curious, because my Admiral seems to shoot better like that.


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## BowButla (Aug 5, 2009)

Don't have any answers, but I have been shooting Bowtechs since the Patriot modle because I got tired of twisting buss cables on single cam bows every other week. Old Bowtechs (with cable rods) tuned out easier and would stay tuned forever. Since my first roller guard modle and now have owned 3 of them, I noticed a few frustrating things they all have in common.

1) They are all very sensitive to arrow spine

2) They will tear a tail left through paper if the stars do not line up perfectly in the archery universe.

3) To get a perfect bare shaft bullet hole through paper, the rest will wind up 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch inside of center line of grip

4) The sight pins will line up way left of the center of string when viewed from down center with a nocked shaft at rest.

I still own my favorite bow of all time an '06 Tribute, and it still tunes out a .340 spine out to a .500 spine shaft at center grip with pins center of string at rest from 63# up to 70# without adjusting rest. Go figure..........


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Perfectionist said:


> Tap, have you experimented with a weaker spine in your Captain? Just curious, because my Admiral seems to shoot better like that.


Yes I sure did!


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

TAP said:


> Yes I sure did!


YEEOOOWWWCCCHHH!

I wasn't thinking that weak of a spine....


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I still find it funny that everyone that is a Bowtech fan wants to go way out of their way to make these shootable. I know that I did, but it didn't take long to determine that there is a design flaw. I know it and THEY know it. Of course they will not come out and admit it. But people getting hurt because they are shooting arrows under spined is pure crap.

Now all you guys that are happy with your Captain's, Sentinels and Brigadiers don't come on and trash me because you are wasting your time on me. I know for a fact that the factory knows there is a flaw. I am glad that your bows make you happy. I am not against you. But Bowtech doesn't give a crap about any one of you shooters. Their employees do care about you but the company does not. You bought the bow, they got their money they are happy. That is why Me, TAP and countless others have been fed the company line.

Rest assured that 2010 will most likely bring the fix and those bows will be great shooters......maybe. There is a reason that letters were sent out to dealers apologizing for communications, QA issues and a few other things. Band aids are cheaper than tournquets.

I refused to follow


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

USNarcher said:


> Rest assured that 2010 will most likely bring the fix and those bows will be great shooters......maybe. There is a reason that letters were sent out to dealers apologizing for communications, QA issues and a few other things. Band aids are cheaper than tournquets.


What apology letter was sent to dealers?


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I didn't see the letter but I was at a shoot a few weeks ago and there were 2 Bowtech dealers there shooting (from other states) and they both were asking me why I quit Bowtech and then they said that they had each received a letter from the factory. None of my business but at least someone is somewhat apologetic. :noidea:


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

That's interesting... Maybe there are some positive changes on the horizon.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Perfectionist said:


> That's interesting... Maybe there are some positive changes on the horizon.


One can only hope.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Things to Consider*

We sell them so I am obligated to not only know how to tune them but understand them. Here is my conclusion on the BowTech bows. Open and honest.

The NEW "Center Pivot" riser is very cool. I like the design. No shock, quiet, and relatively stable. The riser is strong. 

Center track cam? It is OK but too wide. That is part of the problem. I dont think the center tract is critical and it is a problem torquing the bow. It could be improved upon. see later comments 

As you draw the bow back there are a few forces occuring. The outward force from the cables are pulling on the side of the cam from the roller, not on the limb tips or the end of the axles. That will put force on *one side.* There is no split harness so you can't adjust this. The cables are being pulled to the side (normal) and forward from the rollers. (more force) 

With these two forces it is pulling very hard on the limbs on the right side, on a right handed bow. The whole bow is reacting by turning away the force. The riser is not bending but the bow is giving into the pressure on one side, trying to equalize it out. It turns in your hand. 

But why did the older bows not do this? Guardian, Commander? The primary difference was the cable slide and its POSITION. The fletching BARELY cleared on these bows with the slide by design. To have the least amout of pressure as possible. In 2008 the roller bows cleared fletching easily. So they placed a roller and fixed the fletching clearance problem by moving it over, creating another problem. More side and forward Cable torque/force.

Two bows that shot and tuned the best were the Allegiance and the Tribute. The best selling bows of the line. They had slides and solid traditional limbs. But they did have one thing the center pivots did not have. Cam lean or better yet, limb twist. The design allowed the limbs to twist so the riser did not have to turn. The force was absorbed in the limbs. Cam lean. But the bows tuned well and shot very good and consistent. They centered up close or a bit to the outside of center shot. Tuned very good. But the lean was inconsistent. 

With the current center pivot design and the center track cam I think there are limitations to force and pressure, and even stored energy. They have found that limit. The pressure on the right side has been blocked by the one piece center pivot riser with the design. The limbs cant twist much to equalize out the pressure or have cam lean so it is transferred into the whole bow in a turning motion. The bow turns away from the pressure. Many things will do this in mechanics. This is why I have stated to have a very loose grip across the fat of the thumb and let the bow do what it wants. The bow will turn to equal pressure, and when it goes off it will travel to equal pressure at the shot. This is the straightest path for the string. 

I would like to see a center pivot design like the 2009 models with a cam similar to the SWAT/Sniper cam. Narrow cam with the cables very close to the side of the cam. Narrow the gap between the split limbs considerably or narrow as possible. Put a slide on the bow.

Something else to consider. With todays quality of string material a two cam bow is not a bad thing. Years ago the material stretched and that is why single cam bows took off. Two cam timing issues. Is a Binary totally nessecary? A slaved system. I like them but I am asking. 

I believe BowTech could have a center pivot bow with a traditional two cam split harness system and it would be lights out! So what if it would look like a Hoyt. Try it. It works. With a slide.

I need not get into the topic of the very long riser with the Airborne bows and the Marquis.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*letter*

The letter explained how the new president of BowTech like to communicate and relay his message. Very up-front and open. My style.

It basically said, "Here is the good", and made some comments. Market share, research and development etc.

And then it said, "The Bad and Ugly". It basically said they will have better communication with dealers and staff folks to resolve problems. When there is a problem dealers will know about it and be involved.

In a nutshell they will be open and if a problem it will be known and resolved.

I feel they grew so fast it was difficult to keep up with expectations. Sometimes when you sell that many bows it is like you cant do wrong. That attitude is gone now and it will get even better.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Didn't mean to reopen this with all the suggestions starting over...
if you read the thread they are exhaustive and repetitive....

In general though....pun intended....
I just got a new general and Kinda feel the same way...I thought this was going to be my bow of a lifetime and it isn't.....not bad but....should drive tacks each and every shot!
Finally the guy at the third pro shop was willing to take on the challenge and get it to where it is....good but not great.


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

TAP said:


> Here's what I have been able to do. I was using a Ripcord rest. I did try a lizard tongue rest early on, but probably didnt spend enough time with it.
> 
> My Sentinal shoots the same exact arrow much straighter and should be tuneable. The only difference between the bows was the rest. So Friday I switched them around.
> 
> ...


It is funny you talk about using a non drop away rest. I bought a Sentinel earlier this week in all black and wanted to put on a limb driver but my shop only had it in camo so I chose not to use it. When I got home I put on a Star Hunter I had from 10 plus years ago and shot a bullet hole on my first shot. It also shot bullet holes with my target fat boys in the same 400 spine with no changing of the nock or rest setting.

I am shooting 29 inch draw 68 pounds and shooting ICS hunter 400 with 100 grain tip and blazers. I then went to the 3d league the next day. I sighted in my bow but did notice some minor torque depending on my hand placement. Everything was close and the avergae guy would have said close enough. I wasn't completely happy with the sight in groups but shot the course anyway and proceeded to shoot my high score of the year by 12 points. It was weird when I held on the 3d target with out a spot like the target face it seemed to hold better than any bow I have ever shot!

I will be shooting broad heads Muzzy 100 4 blade tomorrow so we will see.

One thing I am thinking of doing is adding the one piece grip as it has a flatter back vs the side plate with a rounded back where I belive it is harder to hold as consistenly from shot to shot. Has anyone tried this?

Good luck! So far I love the bow but there is definetley room for improvement. :darkbeer:


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## Archer Dude (Mar 16, 2008)

07 Commander with its cams is vastly superior in my opinion to either the 08 Commander or the 09 Sentinel.

Best wishes.


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## MGHood (Sep 28, 2009)

What you just described is the same as picking yourself up by the boot straps!!!



amarchery said:


> With these two forces it is pulling very hard on the limbs on the right side, on a right handed bow. The whole bow is reacting by turning away the force. The riser is not bending but the bow is giving into the pressure on one side, trying to equalize it out. It turns in your hand.


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## MGHood (Sep 28, 2009)

The process you described is equivalent to picking yourself up by your bootstraps!! If you don't understand just try it.



amarchery said:


> We sell them so I am obligated to not only know how to tune them but understand them. Here is my conclusion on the BowTech bows. Open and honest.
> 
> The NEW "Center Pivot" riser is very cool. I like the design. No shock, quiet, and relatively stable. The riser is strong.
> 
> ...


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree completely with amarchery, though I would word it differently he describes the torque inherent in this bow's design. I finished my Admiral's shoot through roller guard and also agree that it's the best fix for these bows. There is now NO torque and it shoots like it should, right down the center.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Diddo.......My Shoot Thru fixes the Captain and Sentinel perfect. They should be arriving in about two weeks ready for public consumption.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

looks like i've started a shoot thru revolution,great work guys. i bet a shoot thru system wins vegas this comming season


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## mhlbdonny (Jul 15, 2008)

*hard to tune*

Some friends of mine are bowtech diehards so when I switched from trad to compound I bought bowtech. to make a long sad 3 year horror story short all three of the ones I owned blew up, or at least split limbs. One I sent back to be looked at mysteriously disappeared in transit. when the tracking number was checked it was confirmed that it had been received by bowtech,but had been lost in the shop. this was the last of the crap I had purchased and after a four month struggle it just as mysteriously appeared again. no reason was given as to why this bow had split 4 top limbs after 50 to 100 shots at 60 lb. and a 400 gr. arrow. They did finally send me a new bow which I promptly sold and solved all my problems by purchasing an AM32 and an xforce dream season. After 15 pages of threads on trying to solve bowtech problems I hope you get the message. Being loyal to bowtech is like being loyal to Lada. Remember those cute Russian autos.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

vegas steve said:


> looks like i've started a shoot thru revolution,great work guys. i bet a shoot thru system wins vegas this comming season


 Are you and TAP offering a different draw stop post? Mine didn't make enough contact on the cable to stop the draw so I made a longer one.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

mhlbdonny said:


> Some friends of mine are bowtech diehards so when I switched from trad to compound I bought bowtech. to make a long sad 3 year horror story short all three of the ones I owned blew up, or at least split limbs. One I sent back to be looked at mysteriously disappeared in transit. when the tracking number was checked it was confirmed that it had been received by bowtech,but had been lost in the shop. this was the last of the crap I had purchased and after a four month struggle it just as mysteriously appeared again. no reason was given as to why this bow had split 4 top limbs after 50 to 100 shots at 60 lb. and a 400 gr. arrow. They did finally send me a new bow which I promptly sold and solved all my problems by purchasing an AM32 and an xforce dream season. After 15 pages of threads on trying to solve bowtech problems I hope you get the message. Being loyal to bowtech is like being loyal to Lada. Remember those cute Russian autos.


 Your experience is nothing like I've ever. I would suggest for you to stay inside is there is lightening around.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

i myself just shim the stock draw stop. if u need more than .187 of extra length then u have the cables spread for too much clearance


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Looks like mhl has only owned one Commander... Not the three he says he has owned.

"Until monday of this week I owned mathews dren, a bowtech commander and a dream season. I have sworn on many occasions that I would never touch an ugly hoyt bow. well someone talked me into shooting..."


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

vegas steve said:


> i myself just shim the stock draw stop. if u need more than .187 of extra length then u have the cables spread for too much clearance


 My cables are spread 1 3/8" at the rollers but it could be due to the shorter Admiral. A 3/16" shim would require a different screw in the stock draw stop. The new draw stop I made is probably that much longer.


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## mhlbdonny (Jul 15, 2008)

Walks with a gi. I have no idea what you just said,but ask the people who have had all the problems with bowtech why they are called blowtech. P.S. Why did they stop making one of their models in the last couple years because of limb failure problems?


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Tap,

made up a cable slide conversion for my 82nd, bolt'd her on and went to the paper

with the roller guard i had a 1" horizontal nock left tear with GT ultralight 300's cut to 28" with 100 grain tip

with cable slide i had "SAME THING"

i will say that the airborne riser is one of the LOOOOOONGest risers out there (its longer than my VE riser)

I still like the bow it shoots awesome out to 40 yrds (if im doing my part)

but im looking for its replacement for 2010: Elite, PSE, Hoyt .... Bowtech (in that order)

Man am i glad i PM'd USN about the sentinel before buying one that guy sav'd me some $$$$$$$$$$ and an S'load of frustration


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

My shoot thru kit will have TWO draw stop posts. If you want to supertune timing it necessary to have two so I am just including them both. Mine are 1/2 long Nylon posts. They work perfect.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

TAP said:


> My shoot thru kit will have TWO draw stop posts. If you want to supertune timing it necessary to have two so I am just including them both. Mine are 1/2 long Nylon posts. They work perfect.


That's what I was thinking 2-stops, I like that. I had meant to ask that question on the other thread that vegas steve had been doing..


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## caipirginka (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that TAP has come up with a solution to replace the roller-guard. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever show up here in Italy.
Anyway what I'd like to say, after 6 month using my Sentinel 09 is that it is indeed a very good bow, capable of very good shooting, BUT
it is indeed _very little_ forgiving.
To use it at it's best three things are needed:
.) the right arrow must be selected. It has not to be necessarily "too" weak, but you have to experiments with lots of combination of different shafts, points, etc. I found that testing bareshafts is the best way. Beware that in any case you will _not_ find an arrow that shot perfectly straight... :sad:
.) you have to grip the bow as less as possible, up to the point of just letting it lean against your thumb alone. I used it this way for a few weeks, but then my thumb starts aching quite a lot. Now I found a compromise position, that gives me good results, without breaking my thumb. This raccomandation is good for any bow, for is very important for the Sent09. If you grip it, it won't shoot well.
.) you have to keep the bow _very_ vertical. This, again, is true for any compound, but the Sent09, beeing so long and heavy (expecially limbs), is _very_ sensible to any inclination. If you don't keep it up-straight, arrows will go the left and to the right. I discovered this while doing 3D tournaments, because we're not allowed to have levels on our sights, so you must "feel" for yourself when the bow is vertical. Once I recognized this and started to put much more attention to this aspect, my scores started to rose!!! 

All in all I'm satisfied of my Sentinel 09, even if it is probably not the best bow around and, for sure, it is not the more forgiving.
I agree with TAP that is a real pity that such good bows are so difficult to be used at their best!!!
Besides the new Italian 3D Champion (by FIARC rules) used a 101st.

Bye
Paolo


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

mhlbdonny said:


> Walks with a gi. I have no idea what you just said,but ask the people who have had all the problems with bowtech why they are called blowtech. P.S. Why did they stop making one of their models in the last couple years because of limb failure problems?


 What I just said is that you haven't owned 3 BowTechs and they all had problems. Maybe your 1 Commander did but not the 3 you claimed to have.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

caipirginka said:


> I'm glad to hear that TAP has come up with a solution to replace the roller-guard. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever show up here in Italy.
> Anyway what I'd like to say, after 6 month using my Sentinel 09 is that it is indeed a very good bow, capable of very good shooting, BUT
> it is indeed _very little_ forgiving.
> To use it at it's best three things are needed:
> ...


I will ship to Italy. Don't worry!   Bowtech says there are THOUSANDS of these in the world, and if I need to ship one to each and every single one of the owners I will do it just so that you can experience the BEST shooting bow I have ever had! Shipping will be more but we can manage. Two weeks and counting to parts!


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## Blue Tick (Jul 16, 2007)

Ok...instead of reading all of these posts. Could you please tell me how you solved the issue you were having. I am comtemplating setting one up to hunt with as well. Thanks!


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

My problems all went away with a shoot-Thru that I designed and am now manufacturing. It requires two of the same cams to be put on the bow and about an hour time for the install. It is pretty easy and the directions will be complete even for a novice. (I recommend a Pro-Shop however)

Here's a picture.....
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=950592&page=7


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## mhlbdonny (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm not in the habit of defending myself from someone who has called me a liar, so I took into account the undecipherable thread with the lightning comment and realised what an intelligent person I was dealing with. Having realised this I came to the conclusion that those broken limbs must have been my imagination.So walks with a gi this is the last you will hear from me. Man you straightened me out!!!


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## Blue Tick (Jul 16, 2007)

TAP said:


> My problems all went away with a shoot-Thru that I designed and am now manufacturing. It requires two of the same cams to be put on the bow and about an hour time for the install. It is pretty easy and the directions will be complete even for a novice. (I recommend a Pro-Shop however)
> 
> Here's a picture.....
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=950592&page=7


Looks very interesting. Did you have to change stings/cables? Which cam did you get 2 of? Did BowTech send it to you or your shop?

Have you had any issues with the shoot thru affecting vision or shots?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

mhlbdonny said:


> I'm not in the habit of defending myself from someone who has called me a liar, so I took into account the undecipherable thread with the lightning comment and realised what an intelligent person I was dealing with. Having realised this I came to the conclusion that those broken limbs must have been my imagination.So walks with a gi this is the last you will hear from me. Man you straightened me out!!!


 Your post history is there for everyone that clicks on your name,, I'm just sayin'..


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Blue Tick said:


> Looks very interesting. Did you have to change stings/cables? Which cam did you get 2 of? Did BowTech send it to you or your shop?
> 
> Have you had any issues with the shoot thru affecting vision or shots?


No strings or cable changes. The cam I am lucky enough to own two bows so I just switched one with two bottoms and the other with two tops! I have this down to science where without even a bowpress I can switch out two bows in under 30 minutes!  It helps to know your way around these bows so a Pro-Shop for the novice is always a good idea. I am also going to recommend Vegas Steve if people want to send their bows off to someone because he obviously has cardinal knowledge of how the system works.

I wish I could say that I had the time to do them myself, but with TAP, two young boys with bows and airsoft guns time is precious to me.


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## Blue Tick (Jul 16, 2007)

TAP said:


> No strings or cable changes. The cam I am lucky enough to own two bows so I just switched one with two bottoms and the other with two tops! I have this down to science where without even a bowpress I can switch out two bows in under 30 minutes!  It helps to know your way around these bows so a Pro-Shop for the novice is always a good idea. I am also going to recommend Vegas Steve if people want to send their bows off to someone because he obviously has cardinal knowledge of how the system works.
> 
> I wish I could say that I had the time to do them myself, but with TAP, two young boys with bows and airsoft guns time is precious to me.


How about draw length? How were you able to get that work out with 2 of the same cams on the bows? Does Vegas Steve have his own shop were he does all this?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Blue Tick said:


> How about draw length? How were you able to get that work out with 2 of the same cams on the bows? Does Vegas Steve have his own shop were he does all this?


You simply set the cams the same as you do with the stock setup. It all works exactly the same, all we are doing is seperating the cables by running them on the same side of the cam rather than crossing them over at the stock roller guard.

Funny story though......... I have a Captain and Sentinel and they are different cam locations for the same draw length. The first time I switched the cams I forgot ALL about that. When I drew the bows back the first time I was like "What the heck?" I figured it out pretty quick though.....one was on 3 and the other was on 3.5...I had a weird back wall to say the least....


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

It is a pretty fast conversion if you have all the parts, the cam, draw stop and the spreader bracket. Maybe 30 minutes and it's well worth it for getting the most out of these bows. I think my Admiral is even quieter than it was. 



My next project is a third roller on my bow....:zip:


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## Blue Tick (Jul 16, 2007)

Will this system work with the Admirals? I have both and am looking at this possibly. I haven't experienced any issues, but it looks tempting!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Yes it will work on Admirals.


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## vegas steve (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue Tick said:


> How about draw length? How were you able to get that work out with 2 of the same cams on the bows? Does Vegas Steve have his own shop were he does all this?


yes,i have my own shop and perform all of my magic there.


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## Neuralgia (Mar 25, 2008)

wow.

I've spent 1.5 hours reading the whole thread.

Very interesting.

Thanks all of you guys for looking for a solution

Now, I have 2 question (I sent pm's to TAP and Vegas steve with one of them)

1. Why would someone need to place a shoot through system on a Commander 2008, if it had a regular cable slide, and not the same amount of stress applied to the riser? 

2. Do you think (I know, it'll be FINAL until you try the bows), this issue will be fixed with the flexguard? or do you THINK this might add another factor to the equation?

Dan from Costa Rica


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## ddd-shooter (Jan 18, 2009)

I think this thread is why Bowtech didn't put the FLX guard on the Captain. 

Didn't want to admit it....:boink:


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## docrich52 (Dec 11, 2008)

Ok,
to start off, I am having the exact same problems as everyone else on here with my 09 captain and I would really like to solve them so that I can justify the amount of money I spent on this bow. It will shoot, but consistantly is not gauranteed. I am getting 295 fps out of my 09 captain 30" DL, 70# DW. I am using a trophy taker rest. I don't know much about tuning a bow and would like to learn everything that I can so that I can maximixe the performance of my bow. It seems to me that if I torque my grip the same way every time I'm as good as gold but if not my arrows are all over the place.... what gives? If anyone close can help I have nothing but time and can travel to figure this thing out. I hate to say it but every shop that sells bowtechs around me doesn't seem to know what they are doing.


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## Neuralgia (Mar 25, 2008)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think this thread is why Bowtech didn't put the FLX guard on the Captain.
> 
> Didn't want to admit it....:boink:


How do you know they didn't?

I read here on AT that the Sentinel will get one.

For some reason I thought all models would.

:?


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## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

No the Captain does not get one.


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## ddd-shooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Neuralgia said:


> How do you know they didn't?
> 
> I read here on AT that the Sentinel will get one.
> 
> ...



http://www.avidarchers.com/2010BowtechDiamondSpecifications.htm


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

Neuralgia said:


> 2. Do you think (I know, it'll be FINAL until you try the bows), this issue will be fixed with the flexguard? or do you THINK this might add another factor to the equation?
> 
> Dan from Costa Rica


I am not going to comment on this until I shoot one myself. My initial thought process however is plain physics....'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'


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## bowcapt09 (Jan 25, 2009)

Tony, Whats the latest on your shoot thru? Seems like it was about 2 weeks out, about 2 weeks ago.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

bowcapt09 said:


> Tony, Whats the latest on your shoot thru? Seems like it was about 2 weeks out, about 2 weeks ago.


They were shipped yesterday, then I need to send them to Anodizing....so I reckon about late next week. I originally saif early novemeber so we are on track!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

tmo said:


> They are a machined cast right? I just thought a weak mix


I read here where the Marquis also was subject to problems. I understand the riser is forged, not machined. For whatever that's worth.


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## SDHNTR (Aug 8, 2007)

With the shoot through design, how do you knock an arrow, especially quickly and with a broadhead? Seems like that left cable is in the way.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

SDHNTR said:


> With the shoot through design, how do you knock an arrow, especially quickly and with a broadhead? Seems like that left cable is in the way.


you just back it in and snap it on.....after 5 minutes it is automatic! It is completely natural once you do it a few times.....doesn't hinder you at all.


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## bjtc_brian (Aug 23, 2009)

*Shoot Throughs, where are they*

Okay, I am having the same problems as everyone else on here. Tony, what is the word on the Shoot Throughs, and how much are they going to cost?


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## Gary73 (Jan 11, 2008)

bjtc_brian said:


> Okay, I am having the same problems as everyone else on here. Tony, what is the word on the Shoot Throughs, and how much are they going to cost?


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1057001846#post1057001846


Click on Tonys profile go to his website and you can order online. Sooner the better as there still some left over from March's order left, if you miss one of those it might be quite a wait.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

bjtc_brian said:


> Okay, I am having the same problems as everyone else on here. Tony, what is the word on the Shoot Throughs, and how much are they going to cost?


You wont be disspointed. I have now replaced my 2006 Allegiance with ANY of my 2009 CP's. If you have any additionla questions I am here for you.


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## bjtc_brian (Aug 23, 2009)

*Questions, Questions, Questions.......*

I do have a couple of questions. Why do the cams need to be the same? Also, are the cams included in the package? How much space is in between the cables afterwards, i.e will every fletching clear? Has anyone had any troubles with them? And, just how well does this thing really shoot afterwards, in other words, is it worth the money? I was going nuts trying to figure out how to shoot around a tree or something when I was out hunting because it was so touchy to any hand torque. Has bowtech every acknowledge the issue?


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## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

I don't get it. BT has a package to convert the system to a shoot through so is there a problem getting it ?


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## lost american (Nov 21, 2002)

according to bowtech the bows have no problem. as for the cam swap if you study the cams you can see that two identical cams puts the cables apart they dont cross each other anymore this kills the tourqe. check taps web site i think he offers a complete deal. i have only heard possitive feedback. mine is on order should be set up up in a couple of weeks then i can tell you more. the conversion is cheaper than buying a new bow, think of it that way.


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

bjtc_brian said:


> I do have a couple of questions. Why do the cams need to be the same? Also, are the cams included in the package? How much space is in between the cables afterwards, i.e will every fletching clear? Has anyone had any troubles with them? And, just how well does this thing really shoot afterwards, in other words, is it worth the money? I was going nuts trying to figure out how to shoot around a tree or something when I was out hunting because it was so touchy to any hand torque. Has bowtech every acknowledge the issue?


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1061586

This thread answers all your questions and provides some testimonial on how good it works and well it blends into the bow like it was meant to be there...not bolted on after the fact.


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## CBLArcher (Mar 5, 2007)

Crackers said:


> I don't get it. BT has a package to convert the system to a shoot through so is there a problem getting it ?


I had posed this same question on another thread and posted some pictures I found from last year's ATA show with a BT factory shoot thru. Bowtech should see from all these threads that there IS a demand for a shoot thru system on the center pivot bows and start selling the ones they came up with OR they need to acknowledge that the sytem TAP has come up with does work and is functional with the bow's current design and start selling people cams so they can convert.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I think BowTech should offer their shoot through bracket and hardware to those that are having a problem shooting the '09 CP bows. For those that have had great results shooting with the stock roller guard bracket, that's great but there are some that need the conversion package to make the bow shoot for them. I think it would be great for PR to help those that have invested their money and intrest in BowTech. What could it hurt? Nothing!

That said, the 2010 CP bows won't be able to be converted to shoot through from the FLX guard so get an '09 if you can find one before they are gone:star:


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

CBLArcher said:


> I had posed this same question on another thread and posted some pictures I found from last year's ATA show with a BT factory shoot thru. Bowtech should see from all these threads that there IS a demand for a shoot thru system on the center pivot bows and start selling the ones they came up with OR they need to acknowledge that the sytem TAP has come up with does work and is functional with the bow's current design and start selling people cams so they can convert.


They ARE selling cams, check with your pro-shop. Make sure to request the WHOLE cam with draw length module though.....I have heard cams are anywhere from 50-70 bucks. Thats a good deal.


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## CBLArcher (Mar 5, 2007)

TAP said:


> They ARE selling cams, check with your pro-shop. Make sure to request the WHOLE cam with draw length module though.....I have heard cams are anywhere from 50-70 bucks. Thats a good deal.


Has BT had a change of heart or are people randomly having success with buying extra cams?


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## TAP (May 28, 2002)

CBLArcher said:


> Has BT had a change of heart or are people randomly having success with buying extra cams?


Not sure?  Some people can order a single cam, others need to purchase a set, others get cams without the draw module (useless), some have to send back cams to get cams.....some people have to send the bow to Bowtech to have THEM replace the cams.....It's all over the board.


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## Poison4504 (Jan 23, 2010)

Like someone else said earlier, I have just spent an hour reading about all of this and it is amazing. I wish i had the means to make some of my own gadgets like you guys. Being in my early twenties just means i will be buying one of these shoot through set ups. Thank God at least someone has found an answer mine has been driving me nuts since i bought it. Thanks again for all the work and info guys.:teeth:


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## The Scorpion (Jan 31, 2010)

*It amazes me..*

My 09 Captain Shoots Bullets. 

It is the easiest Bow i have ever tuned .. I can Shoot about any fixed blade broadhead From this Bow. I just don't understand All of this about the Captain Tuning problems..LAst fall i was shooting the 100 grain muzzies,thunderheads, titaniums, pretty much any broadhead that I cared to shoot.. 

Mine shoots Beautiful ... Not 1 tuning issue 



Wasn't this thread Posted here Once before?


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