# Nfaa class system



## bfisher

Hey, everybody wants a trophy at the end of the day. All this started way back in the 70's.


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## SonnyThomas

Pretty narrow sighted, 3 divisions.


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## brtesite

when I started, it was FS, BB, & heavy tackle


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## distributor

For sure we do not need a bowhunter free style unlimited just take a hard look at it almost the same equipment that the free style shooters use, same weight arrows you can take a short stapalizer
and balance the bow out, 5 pins with some good points on the targets get you into the 550's, I say combine both freestyle and bowhunter freestyle. And then if you would like o shoot fingers use a recurve
ang shoo oly style.


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## BaconRocks

brtesite said:


> when I started, it was FS, BB, & heavy tackle


If you don't mind me asking, what was the heavy tackle class?


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## distributor

I think I remember this right 45# bow with 125 grain points no sights


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## ccwilder3

Since it makes no difference, lets do away with scopes and stabilizers over 12" and just go with pins and a short stabilizer in the compound class.


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## Archery Power

oh I see you still would like to have a bowhunter freestyle class, What about no scopes any stablizer you would like to shoot, and a slide bar with any sight but no scopes that will get every one more even, and will give the bowhunter freestyler a little better sight system.


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## ccwilder3

I compete with what I and at least 90% of hunting archers use.

That aside, can you explain how excluding the archers based on their preferred equipment is going to increase participation?


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## brtesite

distributor said:


> I think I remember this right 45# bow with 125 grain points no sights


 don't remember if there was a bow weight restriction, but it was 125 g tip . Unless you shot a heavier weight bow you wouldn't reach the long ranges. Don't for get , this was the days of non compounds


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## brtesite

*heavy tackle*

HT became the BH divisions. the name was changed so that all of the bow hunters out there would flock to the NFAA because they could identify.
IMO it didn't work. The biggest killer of the membership was the target change then. 
I'm sure with the equipment of today, something would have to change but not at that time. May be more time should have been taken then. We are a knee jerk reaction society to every problem that arises. Some one gets shot, get rid of guns. To many perfect scores , make the target smaller. You get the idea.


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## zestycj7

What about the people that shoot compound with no sights and fingers, 12" stabilizer and don't string walk?
We shoot too.
Don.


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## field14

brtesite said:


> don't remember if there was a bow weight restriction, but it was 125 g tip . Unless you shot a heavier weight bow you wouldn't reach the long ranges. Don't for get , this was the days of non compounds


Mike,
If I recall correctly the heavy tackle had a poundage restriction of no lower than 60 pounds, plus the others. 

When BHFS with compounds came into being, it also had a lot more restrictions than it does today> 
Peep site completely tied in with no visible openings above or below it; 
125 grain points minimum; 
MAXIMUM of 5" of site extension measured from the back of the bow (the side facing away from the shooter), 
Maximum SINGLE stabilizer of 12" in length. 
Maximum of FIVE (5) FIXED pins (no slider sites) of *Straight stock*; 
Pin guards were NOT allowed, obviously no "scope type housings" either. 
NO BUBBLE. 
You could not use any circle, even one with a "dot" in the middle of it. 
No adjustments of any kind could be made to the bow or the bow site, or peep sight once scoring started.

Nowdaze, BHFS is only separated from FS by not allowing lenses in the main sight (can use lenses in the peep), and the use of the 12" stabilizer; other than that, BHFS is really FS with "pins." WAY easier than it was originally intended. Thus, I agree with Distributor...BHFS is "glorified Freestyle"; either increase some restrictions in the class or combine it with Freestyle. Going back to the 125 grain minimum point weight and 5" maximum site extension would be a good start.

Bowfisher, it really started back in the LATE 1970's as a knee jerk reaction to the target change. Since the scores dropped like a rock, the reactions were to give MORE awards/rewards to people for not improving; sorta like is happening in our schools. Passing grade is 60%...but kids are being passed along at 50%, cuz it is close enough. Comes to bite you in the end, or rather both ends, ha.

Bowhunter really was initially BOWHUNTER equipment...but that has fallen by the wayside in the later 1980's when the restrictions started being lifted one by one, or two by two. There are agenda items every year concerning BOWHUNTER Divisions...that suck up a lot of time for not much of any gain. I believe that several times now, there has even been an agenda item written to ALLOW adjustable sights in the BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE and BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE LIMITED divisions! Of course, I don't think the agenda item made it past the committee or even to the floor. How ludicrous can you get?


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## field14

zestycj7 said:


> What about the people that shoot compound with no sights and fingers, 12" stabilizer and don't string walk?
> We shoot too.
> Don.


Very danged FEW of you. I can count on less than one hand the number of people I've seen shooting like that. No justification in numbers to ever support this "class" of shooting. You could write an agenda item to create this new class...and go from there. That is what it would take.


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## TNMAN

Tom, he's talking about Bowhunter (the "other" Bowhunter class, not BHFS). But you are right in that there aren't many folks left shooting Bowhunter.


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## bopo2

field14 said:


> Mike,
> If I recall correctly the heavy tackle had a poundage restriction of no lower than 60 pounds, plus the others.
> 
> When BHFS with compounds came into being, it also had a lot more restrictions than it does today>
> Peep site completely tied in with no visible openings above or below it;
> 125 grain points minimum;
> MAXIMUM of 5" of site extension measured from the back of the bow (the side facing away from the shooter),
> Maximum SINGLE stabilizer of 12" in length.
> Maximum of FIVE (5) FIXED pins (no slider sites) of *Straight stock*;
> Pin guards were NOT allowed, obviously no "scope type housings" either.
> NO BUBBLE.
> You could not use any circle, even one with a "dot" in the middle of it.
> No adjustments of any kind could be made to the bow or the bow site, or peep sight once scoring started.
> 
> Nowdaze, BHFS is only separated from FS by not allowing lenses in the main sight (can use lenses in the peep), and the use of the 12" stabilizer; other than that, BHFS is really FS with "pins." WAY easier than it was originally intended. Thus, I agree with Distributor...BHFS is "glorified Freestyle"; either increase some restrictions in the class or combine it with Freestyle. Going back to the 125 grain minimum point weight and 5" maximum site extension would be a good start.
> 
> Bowfisher, it really started back in the LATE 1970's as a knee jerk reaction to the target change. Since the scores dropped like a rock, the reactions were to give MORE awards/rewards to people for not improving; sorta like is happening in our schools. Passing grade is 60%...but kids are being passed along at 50%, cuz it is close enough. Comes to bite you in the end, or rather both ends, ha.
> 
> Bowhunter really was initially BOWHUNTER equipment...but that has fallen by the wayside in the later 1980's when the restrictions started being lifted one by one, or two by two. There are agenda items every year concerning BOWHUNTER Divisions...that suck up a lot of time for not much of any gain. I believe that several times now, there has even been an agenda item written to ALLOW adjustable sights in the BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE and BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE LIMITED divisions! Of course, I don't think the agenda item made it past the committee or even to the floor. How ludicrous can you get?


So bhfs is only separated by the lense? Glorified f/s? Way easier? If it was easy everyone would shoot pins! IMO . Have you shot pins?


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## bfisher

I remember back in the mid 70's when the PSAA first implemented their Bowhunter class in field archery. There were no weight restrictions, but only 4 pins were allowed (60 yard max distance) and no pin guard or any other attachment to the sight---6" max distance from the riser. Fingers only (no release). Any type arrow but it had to weigh at least 400 gr and have a double taper field point (no bullet points allowed) of at least 100 gr. No peep sight allowed. Classes were A, B, C, & D. Nobody wanted to be in D class so eventually there was C,B, A, and AA (whoopy)

Pick up a release and it was "Welcome to the big time"---Unlimited Division. No classes, no equipment restrictions. Amateurs against amateurs against pros. Now those were the days.


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## ccwilder3

field14 said:


> Mike,
> If I recall correctly the heavy tackle had a poundage restriction of no lower than 60 pounds, plus the others.
> 
> When BHFS with compounds came into being, it also had a lot more restrictions than it does today>
> Peep site completely tied in with no visible openings above or below it;
> 125 grain points minimum;
> MAXIMUM of 5" of site extension measured from the back of the bow (the side facing away from the shooter),
> Maximum SINGLE stabilizer of 12" in length.
> Maximum of FIVE (5) FIXED pins (no slider sites) of *Straight stock*;
> Pin guards were NOT allowed, obviously no "scope type housings" either.
> NO BUBBLE.
> You could not use any circle, even one with a "dot" in the middle of it.
> No adjustments of any kind could be made to the bow or the bow site, or peep sight once scoring started.
> 
> *Nowdaze, BHFS is only separated from FS by not allowing lenses in the main sight (can use lenses in the peep), and the use of the 12" stabilizer; other than that, BHFS is really FS with "pins." WAY easier than it was originally intended. Thus, I agree with Distributor...BHFS is "glorified Freestyle"; either increase some restrictions in the class or combine it with Freestyle. Going back to the 125 grain minimum point weight and 5" maximum site extension would be a good start.*
> 
> Bowfisher, it really started back in the LATE 1970's as a knee jerk reaction to the target change. Since the scores dropped like a rock, the reactions were to give MORE awards/rewards to people for not improving; sorta like is happening in our schools. Passing grade is 60%...but kids are being passed along at 50%, cuz it is close enough. Comes to bite you in the end, or rather both ends, ha.
> 
> Bowhunter really was initially BOWHUNTER equipment...but that has fallen by the wayside in the later 1980's when the restrictions started being lifted one by one, or two by two. There are agenda items every year concerning BOWHUNTER Divisions...that suck up a lot of time for not much of any gain. I believe that several times now, there has even been an agenda item written to ALLOW adjustable sights in the BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE and BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE LIMITED divisions! Of course, I don't think the agenda item made it past the committee or even to the floor. How ludicrous can you get?


The BHFS class pretty much mirrors what the vast majority of hunters hunt with. Because of it, I was able to get into field archery and compete against my peers. Please explain how eliminating the class is going to help field archery.


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## Strodav

The United States Practical Shooter's Association does the same thing as NFAA does, so it's not unique. At most matches, you'll see 3 or less people in most classes for both USPSA and NFAA shoots. We use the same classes for 3d at my local archery club.


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## ccwilder3

bopo2 said:


> So bhfs is only separated by the lense? Glorified f/s? Way easier? If it was easy everyone would shoot pins! IMO . Have you shot pins?


I believe at one time he was a very good pin shooter. 

It seems to me that much of the grumbling is equivalent to" when I was a youngster we had to walk to school, bare footed, in the snow, uphill both ways."


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## bopo2

ccwilder3 said:


> I believe at one time he was a very good pin shooter.
> 
> It seems to me that much of the grumbling is equivalent to" when I was a youngster we had to walk to school, bare footed, in the snow, uphill both ways."


I agree with the grumbling haha. I wonder if he still shoots pins?


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## field14

bopo2 said:


> So bhfs is only separated by the lense? Glorified f/s? Way easier? If it was easy everyone would shoot pins! IMO . Have you shot pins?


Been in competitive archery since 1969, so what do you think? I was a bow hunter when I started this game...so obviously, Yes, I certainly have shot pins...both during the days when it was as I defined it above....and shot well into the 540's field and hunter scores (new scoring of 5-4-3-, too) that way, too. Of course, I didn't use 20-30-40-50-60 settings on my pins then or now either; had a different system entirely. 

In fact, when 3-D first got started...FIXED PINS and short stabilizers, and all that was the only way you could shoot 3-D. Didn't have all those other "classes" in 3-D either...fingers and release, male and female, and that was about it.

Nowadaze, it is WAY easier to score well what with being able to use pretty much anything you want excepting a lens and not being able to move the sight or poundage. 5 grains per pound if you wanna...tightens up that pin gap big time, making it almost a piece of cake to come up with aiming references for all 5 pins and having ALL of them at some point either on the spot or color break or using multiple pins to "fix" the distance/yardage. 

Just pop in some 125 grain or more points onto _your_ setup, go to a fixed pin sight without a bubble and no pin guard; pull off the back weights...and watch your scores on field and hunter drop like a rock....until you learn a decent system...that is WAY harder to do with that wider pin gap that results when you go up in arrow/point weight and knock off the added bonuses of the bubble and pin guard/pin housing to use as additional references.

Right now, I'm shooting with a pin sight for 3-D because the league isn't allowing scopes or lenses or back weights...and tell you what...it is FUN to shoot that league that way...12" stabilizer max. 54# peak weight...268 fps and YES...my arrows have 125 grain points in the nose, too! PIN SHOOTING ROCKS, but again WAY easier now than it was before it became the "glorified FS" that it is today. So YES! I do shoot pins and know what I'm talking about.
Yep...I have to shoot a .040 fiber optic pin to be able to see them...but I shoot 'em...and I'm having fun with it, too.


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## bopo2

field14 said:


> Yes, I certainly have...both during the days when it was as I defined it above....and shot well into the 540's that way, too. Now, it is WAY easier to score well what with being able to use pretty much anything you want excepting a lens and not being able to move the sight.
> 
> Just pop in some 125 grain or more points onto your setup, go to a fixed pin sight without a bubble and no pin guard...and watch your scores on field and hunter drop like a rock....until you learn a decent system...that is WAY harder to do with that wider pin gap.
> 
> Right now, I'm shooting with a pin sight for 3-D because the league isn't allowing scopes or lenses or back weights...and tell you what...it is FUN to shoot that league that way...12" stabilizer max. 54# peak weight...268 fps and YES...my arrows have 125 grain points in the nose, too! So YES! I do shoot pins and know what I'm talking about.


Well I'm glad you know what your talking about  I'm not going to dispute this pin thing anymore not worth the time


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## FS560

Hey Tom, we already have that style. Competitive Bowhunter.

I must really type slow. Nine new messages came in while I was typing.

sorry to say something already stated.


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## FS560

We have catered to and pimped the small ponders so long now that we cannot drop styles without losing many of the shooters that were accustomed to and spoiled by being the only shooter in their style.

Ego stroking does not get delinquents and criminals off the streets, improve student performance in school, or attract archers to the range.


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## zestycj7

Out here in Ca. the bowhunter, non-sights and fingers class is starting to grow and that good to see.
You don't need no stinking sights to shoot targets or 3-D....:wink:
It is good to see parents starting to start thier kids off with bows without sights, it teaches them what the art of archery really is. 
Don.


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## ccwilder3

FS560 said:


> We have catered to and pimped the small ponders so long now that we cannot drop styles without losing many of the shooters that were accustomed to and spoiled by being the *only shooter in their style*.
> 
> Ego stroking does not get delinquents and criminals off the streets, improve student performance in school, or attract archers to the range.


At least they are showing up to shoot. Would eliminating that style and the archers who like it help field archery?


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## FS560

We are already so far down the misguided chosen path that eliminating styles likely would hurt.

I do think, however, that the choice of a small pond style says something about the archer wanting to stroke their own ego.


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## ccwilder3

FS560 said:


> We are already so far down the misguided chosen path that eliminating styles likely would hurt.
> 
> I do think, however, that the choice of a small pond style says something about the archer wanting to stroke their own ego.


If they looked at attendance and decided to shoot a class because of no competition then I would agree. 

If they already shot a certain style and saw that the NFAA had a place for them where the could shoot against their peers and joined up then I would disagree.

I have been a NFAA member since 2007 and in that time I don't personally know of a single case where an archer dropped out of a well populated class to shoot in a less populated class. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I just don't personally know of it happening.


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## bowhunter_va_28

What was it that increased most recently, styles or age classes?


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## FS560

Age related divisions outpaced new styles by a wide margin.

Only two new styles that I see but the new silver seniors class and expanded master senior added the most because silver senior is applicable to nine styles. Where master senior was limited to three styles, it is now applicable to all nine.

Pro FSL was brought back. At the meeting 2012 the pro chair wanted to add Freestyle Limited Recurve (olympic equipment) and was asked what he would give up. He said freestyle limited, and so that is the way it went. Now, this year FSL is brought back for the pros.

Bowhunter freestyle was added for cubs, youth, and young adult.


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## SonnyThomas

Of what Tom noted, I can remember Bow Hunter Free Style being equipment that of what I call a bowhunter. No extend sight, no back stabs. And I still feel the restrictive sight length and no back stabs should be. Tom called it right, a glorified class, rightly should be Free Style. 
Competitive BowHunter still is a class; heavy tackle, no sights, fingers. BUT! Quite few times the class didn't/doesn't (?) exist for competing here in Illinois. BUT! Competitive BowHunter equipment allows one to be legal for Bare Bow and there they went. Beings no one was shooting bare bow, Competitive BowHunters used or would assigned this class. And of course, both classes near non-existant with shooters one could automatically win a Championship. Yep, shoot a few arrows, turn in your score card and pick up your Championship Plaque for Bare Bow shooting Competitive Bow Hunter equipment.


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## FS560

The original BHFS equipment requirements included:
five fixed pins, no circles or hoods
no pin guard
maximum extension of the frame 5 inches from the back of the bow
no levels
one stabilizer 12 inches from the back of the bow
no rear or side rods and no counterweights
screw in points minimum 125 grains (this was plus the insert)

At the time, this was in concert with bowhunting equipment.

Through the years, there have been repeated requests for equipment concessions to the above rules based upon the plea that the style has to keep up with the equipment that bowhunters are actually using. The promise has always been that attendance will increase if we will just give them this one additional concession.

If these promises had materialized, the BHFS style would have 250 shooters at a sunday club invitational tournament and 2500 shooters at the nationals, just in that style.


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## SonnyThomas

FS560 said:


> Through the years, there have been repeated requests for equipment concessions to the above rules based upon the plea that the style has to keep up with the equipment that bowhunters are actually using. The promise has always been that attendance will increase if we will just give them this one additional concession.


Yes, but the vast majority of bowhunters still use standard length sight mounts, which follows the old rule and no back stabs, which follows the old rule. The call wasn't from bow hunters, it was from target shooters, those not wanting to jump to the next higher class, Free Style.


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## FS560

Sorry, I did not mean to blame bowhunters for this travesty.

Absolutely. The call was from target shooters riding on the back of bowhunters who did not care about extended sights or the additional weight of back rods and counterweights.

Even the early concessions on points and point weight were not requested by bowhunters. What serious bowhunter, with only one bow, wants to deal with multiple sets of arrows?

Are there any BHFS shooters actually competing with their hunting bow? Likely not!

BUT, it is a target game. Even rubber deer has not been a bowhunting practice game for a long time, maybe never was.


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## FS560

SonnyThomas said:


> Yes, but the vast majority of bowhunters still use standard length sight mounts, which follows the old rule and no back stabs, which follows the old rule. The call wasn't from bow hunters, it was from target shooters, those not wanting to jump to the next higher class, Free Style.


Or freestylers looking for a smaller pond.


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## brtesite

Amen


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> Sorry, I did not mean to blame bowhunters for this travesty.
> 
> Absolutely. The call was from target shooters riding on the back of bowhunters who did not care about extended sights or the additional weight of back rods and counterweights.
> 
> Even the early concessions on points and point weight were not requested by bowhunters. What serious bowhunter, with only one bow, wants to deal with multiple sets of arrows?
> 
> Are there any BHFS shooters actually competing with their hunting bow? Likely not!
> 
> BUT, it is a target game. Even rubber deer has not been a bowhunting practice game for a long time, maybe never was.


Amen again


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## field14

zestycj7 said:


> Out here in Ca. the bowhunter, non-sights and fingers class is starting to grow and that good to see.
> You don't need no stinking sights to shoot targets or 3-D....:wink:
> It is good to see parents starting to start thier kids off with bows without sights, it teaches them what the art of archery really is.
> Don.


Actually, it is NOT the parents that are starting their kids off without sights....it is when the kids get into the NSAP or the USA Archery programs that are starting the kids off without sights!

MOST parents, in fact seem to want to start their kids out overbowed, overdrawn, and with release aids! These new programs like NASP and the USA Archery programs are starting to take hold and the new archers that are following the program are learning the basics and having a lot of fun doing so. We see so many kids come in that are sky drawing, drawing the bow with the drawing elbow down around their waist, contorting their bodies, and turning their heads away from the line of fire until they finally finish struggling to draw the bow, then move both feet to stabilize; all of this BEFORE "finding" the intended target. The parents (usually the father) want them up to the minimum poundage of 40 pounds right away to..."get ready for hunting season" or to shoot 3-D where they think their kid needs all the speed possible.

As an NFAA/USA Archery Certified coach, I can attest to fact that when kids or beginners start off in those courses, if they have a bow and there is a sight on it - - off comes the sight. If they are overbowed with their bow, down comes the poundage or they use one of the coaches' 
"Program bows" such as a genesis. If they are shooting with releases, their fingers go onto the bowstring and they start with the basics. Some programs/coaches even start the beginners out with lightweight stick bows (adults included at the beginning levels), and then they "graduate" to using the genesis bows.

While there are faults/problems with any sort of standardized program of any type, the NFAA/USA Archery programs, along with the NASP (a different set of instructor certifications apply for NASP), do start beginners, youngsters and adults out "right." Safety is the first priority, and a structured and standardized approach is the next priority. Among others, Larry Wise and Steve Ruis have had a lot to do with the writing and development of the NFAA/USA Archery Programs for instructor certification, course layout, etc.



field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

FS560 said:


> Sorry, I did not mean to blame bowhunters for this travesty.
> 
> Absolutely. The call was from target shooters riding on the back of bowhunters who did not care about extended sights or the additional weight of back rods and counterweights.
> 
> Even the early concessions on points and point weight were not requested by bowhunters. What serious bowhunter, with only one bow, wants to deal with multiple sets of arrows?
> 
> Are there any BHFS shooters actually competing with their hunting bow? Likely not!
> 
> BUT, it is a target game. Even rubber deer has not been a bowhunting practice game for a long time, maybe never was.


Amen 3x


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## rogersaddler

I shoot in the BHFS division I always have and as long as my eye's allow me I always will. I remember them days when there was a lot of restrictions on our equipment and to be honest I don't shoot any better scores now as I did back then.
And if you think Archery Power.That Bowhunter freestyle is as easy as freestyle try going out and shooting a field round with pins with or without a pin guard I bet you will surprised how hard it is. There is very few archers in this country that can shoot in the 550's with pins. If it was as easy as freestyle then why isn't there more people doing it after all the equipment is a lot cheaper than freestyle


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## field14

rogersaddler said:


> I shoot in the BHFS division I always have and as long as my eye's allow me I always will. I remember them days when there was a lot of restrictions on our equipment and to be honest I don't shoot any better scores now as I did back then.
> And if you think Archery Power.That Bowhunter freestyle is as easy as freestyle try going out and shooting a field round with pins with or without a pin guard I bet you will surprised how hard it is. There is very few archers in this country that can shoot in the 550's with pins. If it was as easy as freestyle then why isn't there more people doing it after all the equipment is a lot cheaper than freestyle


I shot many a field and hunter round with pins AND the "restricted equipment rules" of the 1980's and 90's...and while I didn't make 550, I was into the 540's without much really hard work. Simply had to learn how the trajectory of MY bow was and then adjust the pin setting gaps accordingly. While I had some success with the stand-by 20-30-40-50-60 pin settings, that got me into the low 530's. The "jump" to the 540's is when I figured out the situation and set my pin gaps a LOT different from "standard." Those gaps varied from set up to setup, depending upon the bow/arrow combination that worked the best with 125 grain points. There were other Tricks besides the pin gap that are/were well within the rules, too.
I will say that in reality, BHFS was much more fun and challenging without the extended sight and the lighter arrows and other accommodations that they now are allowed to use for that style of shooting. I shot BHFS for the sheer pleasure of it and the challenge of not being able to move my sight and having to figure things out for all those odd-ball Hunter round distances; and to torque off some freestylers when my BHFS scores socked it to their scores.

I especially loved it when someone would challenge a few of us "freestylers" that if we took that junk off our bows and went with REAL equipment like fixed pins, short stabilizer, and heavy tips that "they" would kick our arses all over the course. So, a couple of us would dig out our BHFS rigs and proceed to...well...you already know what happened. Those naysayers pretty much had black feathers sticking out of their mouths as a result of eating crow.

As for the statement about the BHFS equipment being CHEAPER than Freestyle...NOT the case, with perhaps ONE exception...the lensed scope, and that is about it. I couldn't believe the prices on "bowhunting sights" when I went looking for one to piddle with! I ended up putting on an old Toxonics bowhunting sight on my 3-D bow for this league while I was waiting for a BIG (040) fiber optic pin to put into my MAC scope housing after I removed the lens. Gad ZOOKS, even BOWHUNTING sites are super expensive! Those short stabilizers don't come cheap either.
Many, if not the majority of BHFS shooters are NOT shooting the same equipment they hunt with. They could NOT simply remove their target points, replace them with broadheads and then go out hunting with that same rig; isn't going to happen; at least not in the upper echelons of the BHFS division; indoors or outdoors.


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## Archery Power

Rogersaddler: Never said that I could shoot a 550 with pins on the field round, What I did say that we have a way to many classes and said the freestyle and the bowhunter freestyle should be combined, Back in he i980's I did shoot bowhunter freestyle with pins and a release, at the NFAA naionals around 1983 I did shoot aound 532 with pins useing a pse wheel bow that had a 40% letoff and the bow was 45# with 2018 easton alu arrows with
125 grain points. Now with these super compound bows and these release that is used today these 550's can be shot, but if you are saying can I shoot a 550 at 71 years old I cannot shoot it freestyle if I had the bow
in a shooting machine.


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## field14

Archery Power said:


> Rogersaddler: Never said that I could shoot a 550 with pins on the field round, What I did say that we have a way to many classes and said the freestyle and the bowhunter freestyle should be combined, Back in he i980's I did shoot bowhunter freestyle with pins and a release, at the NFAA naionals around 1983 I did shoot aound 532 with pins useing a pse wheel bow that had a 40% letoff and the bow was 45# with 2018 easton alu arrows with
> 125 grain points. Now with these super compound bows and these release that is used today these 550's can be shot, but if you are saying can I shoot a 550 at 71 years old I cannot shoot it freestyle if I had the bow
> in a shooting machine.



If you look on the NFAA web-site for today's scores from the NFAA National Outdoor in Darrington...the top AMBHFS score is 553! That score is ONE point below the high score for the 554 AMFS score posted and would be in second place overall in AMFS!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## bopo2

field14 said:


> If you look on the NFAA web-site for today's scores from the NFAA National Outdoor in Darrington...the top AMBHFS score is 553! That score is ONE point below the high score for the 554 AMFS score posted and would be in second place overall in AMFS!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


And that's smokin with pins!!


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## field14

bopo2 said:


> And that's smokin with pins!!


That's Smokin' in ANY Class...and again, check out the scores...AMBHFS is right in the mix with the AMFS...basically proving there is no longer any NEED to separate them.

OR...put back in the other "restrictions" on point weight, site extension, and types of pins (NO electronics, including artifically lighted pins) and let the cookie crumble so that BOW HUNTER means just that, not glorified FS. Just sayin....... STIR>STIR>STIR...but in this case, perhaps it is just stating the truth of which "some" cannot handle.


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## Archery Power

Tom just another point that I was making about the bowhunter freestyle should be combined with the freestyle


field14 said:


> If you look on the NFAA web-site for today's scores from the NFAA National Outdoor in Darrington...the top AMBHFS score is 553! That score is ONE point below the high score for the 554 AMFS score posted and would be in second place overall in AMFS!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## field14

Archery Power said:


> Tom just another point that I was making about the bowhunter freestyle should be combined with the freestyle


I'm agreeing with you! However, we can talk all we want..but until an agenda item is written properly and properly and duly submitted on time and then "makes it out of committee to the floor"...it is like peeing into a fan. This one would be a very, very hotly contested change, too; just about guaranteed to be vocal and heated.


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## bopo2

field14 said:


> That's Smokin' in ANY Class...and again, check out the scores...AMBHFS is right in the mix with the AMFS...basically proving there is no longer any NEED to separate them.
> 
> OR...put back in the other "restrictions" on point weight, site extension, and types of pins (NO electronics, including artifically lighted pins) and let the cookie crumble so that BOW HUNTER means just that, not glorified FS. Just sayin....... STIR>STIR>STIR...but in this case, perhaps it is just stating the truth of which "some" cannot handle.


Matt is a heck of a shot. Maybe it's more the guy shooting than the set up?


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## field14

bopo2 said:


> matt is a heck of a shot. Maybe it's more the guy shooting than the set up?


bingo!


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## FS560

field14 said:


> but until an agenda item is written properly and properly and duly submitted on time and then "makes it out of committee to the floor"...


Even if the committee recommendation is "no action" the agenda item can be brought to the floor for consideration by the full board of directors.


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## FS560

I would love to change BHFS back to "real" equipment rules.


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## Tom1953

CAn I use that last line if I give you a reference credit?


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## bopo2

All of this over bhfs why not just shoot fita? Then you will have one class! No more bhfs just compounds,recurves,longbows problem solved!


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## Pete53

field 14 mentioned an old rule from years back,in another thread area, we should all try to get this back as a rule its called," 3-5-7 rule" this would clean up class problems just by using it.was a very smart simple rule.sure our equipment has changed and it is much nicer to use but our vehicles we drive are much better too ,do we really want the old way,not me ! and at age 60 now i don`t need anymore trophies either just the fun of shooting with people of my age.i bet field 14 would agree once you get a certain age you do not have anything to prove anymore ,just being healthy enough to enjoy archery.


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## FS560

Tom1953 said:


> CAn I use that last line if I give you a reference credit?


If you are talking about my signature line, of course, I have no claim on it, except that my rat class at VA Tech 1963 Company E adopted it as our motto and even had it on our E Co. ring dance invitations.


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## FS560

Pete53 said:


> field 14 mentioned an old rule from years back,in another thread area, we should all try to get this back as a rule its called," 3-5-7 rule" this would clean up class problems just by using it.was a very smart simple rule.sure our equipment has changed and it is much nicer to use but our vehicles we drive are much better too ,do we really want the old way,not me ! and at age 60 now i don`t need anymore trophies either just the fun of shooting with people of my age.i bet field 14 would agree once you get a certain age you do not have anything to prove anymore ,just being healthy enough to enjoy archery.



It is the Unit Rule.

First place award for up to 3 shooters.
Second place for 4 to 6 shooters.
Third place for 7 or more shooters.

The unit rule is utilized mainly to save award costs for host clubs but likely does not stifle the small pond issue because there are so many styles with only one, two, or three shooters anyway.


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## ccwilder3

FS560 said:


> Sorry, I did not mean to blame bowhunters for this travesty.
> 
> Absolutely. The call was from target shooters riding on the back of bowhunters who did not care about extended sights or the additional weight of back rods and counterweights.
> 
> Even the early concessions on points and point weight were not requested by bowhunters. What serious bowhunter, with only one bow, wants to deal with multiple sets of arrows?
> 
> *Are there any BHFS shooters actually competing with their hunting bow? Likely not!*
> 
> BUT, it is a target game. Even rubber deer has not been a bowhunting practice game for a long time, maybe never was.



That's the problem right there. You and others just assume that no one is competing with there hunting equipment. Until I bought a new bow this year, I have shot the same setup that I hunt with including a Whisker Biscuit. The majority of the BHFSer's that I shoot with shoot their hunting bow. 

This year I purchased a couple of bows to use for competition so I would not have to alter my hunting rig to make it legal. The only difference between the one I use for BHFS and my hunting rig is the arrow rest, I've got a ProTuner on the new bow.

Also, the counterweight thing came about because so many bows now come with a string stop.


----------



## FS560

ccwilder3 said:


> That's the problem right there. You and others just assume that no one is competing with there hunting equipment.
> 
> Also, the counterweight thing came about because so many bows now come with a string stop.


Guilty as charged on the first point above. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I have been under the impression that the bowhunters have been run out of BHFS by the target shooters with their extended sights and rear stabilizers.

I remember the counterweight issue well. We just could not craft adequate language that would allow the string stops and yet prohibit rear stabilizers and v-bars. So, rear stabilizers, counterweights, and v-bars are now allowed in all compound styles.

Do any bowhunters, while hunting, actually use rear stabilizers or v-bars other than the weight offered by the string stop? I am sure that most bowhunters do use a string stop cushion.


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## grantmac

bopo2 said:


> All of this over bhfs why not just shoot fita? Then you will have one class! No more bhfs just compounds,recurves,longbows problem solved!


And people wonder why FITA is growing and NFAA is dying. In reality it's compound, olympic recurve and barebow recurve.

It seems funny that the NFAA can't get participation in it's "Premier" event, while FITA can treat Field like a redheaded step child and still see growth. Maybe it's the excellent publicity they get from televising their world championships on youtube or because they use an elimination format which is a LOT more interesting then just turning in a score card and seeing who won.

-Grant


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## field14

grantmac said:


> And people wonder why FITA is growing and NFAA is dying. In reality it's compound, olympic recurve and barebow recurve.
> 
> It seems funny that the NFAA can't get participation in it's "Premier" event, while FITA can treat Field like a redheaded step child and still see growth. Maybe it's the excellent publicity they get from televising their world championships on youtube or because they use an elimination format which is a LOT more interesting then just turning in a score card and seeing who won.
> 
> -Grant


The elimination format is really quite a recent development...and it did NOT start in the USofA either. The Nimes tournament and the "Face2Face tournaments in Europe have basically revolutionized archery competitions. Then even the Olympics, which don't yet allow compounds have also adopted an elimination Match play format, too.
Problem is for a "normal tournament" the elimination format doesn't lend itself well to FIELD shooting because there are so many individual stations to be shot during a round and only room for 4-6 people at a time at each station.

Something DOES have to be done about all the classes, styles, and divisions, however...How many "National Champions" are there; some competed against a lot of peers to win that title, while others may have competed only against one or two others, and still others - - were the only ones in their class/style and got a Silver Bowl for paying their registration fee and showing up for the event. Their win was over before it started.
field14 (tom D.)


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## rogersaddler

It wouldn't bother me to see the BHFS rules go back to where they were. But it would be very hard finding a sight without a pin guard now days I'm not sure if any companies even make them anymore


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## FS560

I have not counted it up, but someone said it is now about 150 separate NFAA national champions with all the styles in all divisions.


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## FS560

Unless Easton manufacturers hunting sights, that might stick if we could get it through.


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> I have not counted it up, but someone said it is now about 150 separate NFAA national champions with all the styles in all divisions.


 What shall I call the over 80 div. We have sn., silver , & master.
I'll need another name for the new agenda item I'll have put in. I think we can stand a few more div.???????


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## ccwilder3

FS560 said:


> Guilty as charged on the first point above. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I have been under the impression that the bowhunters have been run out of BHFS by the target shooters with their extended sights and rear stabilizers.
> 
> I remember the counterweight issue well. We just could not craft adequate language that would allow the string stops and yet prohibit rear stabilizers and v-bars. So, rear stabilizers, counterweights, and v-bars are now allowed in all compound styles.
> 
> Do any bowhunters, while hunting, actually use rear stabilizers or v-bars other than the weight offered by the string stop? I am sure that most bowhunters do use a string stop cushion.


I do not know of a single bow hunter that uses a back weight on their hunting bow. It surprised me when that rule came out.

The biggest difference I see between what people hunt with and what is used in BHFS is the releases. Most of the adult males I know bow hunt and I can only think of two that use a handheld release.


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## FS560

brtesite said:


> What shall I call the over 80 div. We have sn., silver , & master.
> I'll need another name for the new agenda item I'll have put in. I think we can stand a few more div.???????


If we add 80 and up; and then make adult to be 18 to29 and add 30-39, 40-49, and 50-59, that would add another 72 national champions.


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## FS560

I do not hunt, but the bowhunters I know, do use handhelds but no back bars, extended sights, or string stops, since they are primarily target shooters.


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## ccwilder3

FS560 said:


> I do not hunt, but the bowhunters I know, do use handhelds but no back bars, extended sights, or string stops, since they are primarily target shooters.


For me it is just the opposite. Just about every adult male I know bow hunts but I know of only one other target shooter in my county and he uses a wrist release for target and hunting.


----------



## grantmac

field14 said:


> The elimination format is really quite a recent development...and it did NOT start in the USofA either. The Nimes tournament and the "Face2Face tournaments in Europe have basically revolutionized archery competitions. Then even the Olympics, which don't yet allow compounds have also adopted an elimination Match play format, too.
> Problem is for a "normal tournament" the elimination format doesn't lend itself well to FIELD shooting because there are so many individual stations to be shot during a round and only room for 4-6 people at a time at each station.
> 
> Something DOES have to be done about all the classes, styles, and divisions, however...How many "National Champions" are there; some competed against a lot of peers to win that title, while others may have competed only against one or two others, and still others - - were the only ones in their class/style and got a Silver Bowl for paying their registration fee and showing up for the event. Their win was over before it started.
> field14 (tom D.)


FITA world field championships use a format where everone shoots the first and second day. Then the top X number shoot another day and their seeding positions for the elimination are determined from there.
The match play is then shot over only 4 targets.

The eliminations reward consistency but the match-play still allows an upset.

-Grant


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> If we add 80 and up; and then make adult to be 18 to29 and add 30-39, 40-49, and 50-59, that would add another 72 national champions.



I think that would be wonderful, Don't you?


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## FS560

Better spent on bowls and plaques than BC's extravagant travel expenses.


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## Pete53

if organizations did always use the unit rule or the 3-5-7 rule with maybe one more rule - no awards unless at least 3 shooters in that age and class type. this would help eliminate class hopper`s looking for an easy trophy. we have all have seen these people at local shoots all the way up to nationals.shame on them !


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> Better spent on bowls and plaques than BC's extravagant travel expenses.


No comment


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## zestycj7

ccwilder3 said:


> I do not know of a single bow hunter that uses a back weight on their hunting bow. It surprised me when that rule came out.
> 
> The biggest difference I see between what people hunt with and what is used in BHFS is the releases. Most of the adult males I know bow hunt and I can only think of two that use a handheld release.


I hunt and shoot with a counterbalance on my bow, but I shoot non-sights and fingers.
Don.


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## zestycj7

FS560 said:


> Better spent on bowls and plaques than BC's extravagant travel expenses.


Now I don't care who you are, thats funny right there....LOL


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## Archery Power

Archery Power said:


> Have you every seen so many classes in one sport? What in the world has happened to cause NFAA to put in all of the classes and Division in such a simple sport?
> At what point is this nonsence going to stope?
> We only need 3 divisions Compound division, Recurve Division, and longbow division.
> 1. Compound Division: Freestyle unlimited.
> 2. Recurve Division: Olympic style shooting only.
> 3. Long bow and Recurve Division: This would be basic the barebow division shot with only recurve and longbows.


just the same.


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## dragonheart II

There is way more participation in BHFS than in trad or longobw. That is also the way most people hunt minus the back weight bar. Barebow, olympic recurve, hunter (BHFS), Freestyle, Pro. Two finger, two release classes, and pro.


distributor said:


> For sure we do not need a bowhunter free style unlimited just take a hard look at it almost the same equipment that the free style shooters use, same weight arrows you can take a short stapalizer
> and balance the bow out, 5 pins with some good points on the targets get you into the 550's, I say combine both freestyle and bowhunter freestyle. And then if you would like o shoot fingers use a recurve
> ang shoo oly style.


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## brtesite

Archery Power said:


> just the same.


The reason is, that you want 3 classes, & the thread following yours wants 10. Every one protects their own & every one wants to be a winner . If we add a few more classes, we will be able to provide a bowl for all attendees


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## hdracer

ccwilder3 said:


> I do not know of a single bow hunter that uses a back weight on their hunting bow. It surprised me when that rule came out.
> 
> The biggest difference I see between what people hunt with and what is used in BHFS is the releases. Most of the adult males I know bow hunt and I can only think of two that use a handheld release.





FS560 said:


> I do not hunt, but the bowhunters I know, do use handhelds but no back bars, extended sights, or string stops, since they are primarily target shooters.


I shoot compound freestyle and hunt. I use my hinge or thumb release for both. Doesn't make sense to me to shoot a handheld all year on targets but not while hunting. But that is just me. Both my hunting bows have only a small front stab, no v-bar or back bar. One has a string stop, one doesn't. One has a multi-pin sight, the other a slider (first year shooting it).

I agree that every sanctioning body has too many classes. Added more takes away shooters form the classes already established. But dropping classes results in shooters feeling slighted and not shooting (their equipment isn't recognized, can't/won't change and feel they can't shoot in any other class).

The current rule about having enough shooters per class for awards and SOY points hinders participation as well. Unless there are 3 (?) shooters per class that shoot all the year's tournaments then SOY points are not awarded. I know of at least 5 people that have stopped shooting Ohio Archery Association (OAA) shoots due to this rule. All are FITA recurve shooters. Women shooters se the same thing. Not enough in their respective classes to be awarded SOY points even though they shoot all the tournaments all year long. The field is spread too thin.


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## brtesite

hdracer said:


> I shoot compound freestyle and hunt. I use my hinge or thumb release for both. Doesn't make sense to me to shoot a handheld all year on targets but not while hunting. But that is just me. Both my hunting bows have only a small front stab, no v-bar or back bar. One has a string stop, one doesn't. One has a multi-pin sight, the other a slider (first year shooting it).
> 
> I agree that every sanctioning body has too many classes. Added more takes away shooters form the classes already established. But dropping classes results in shooters feeling slighted and not shooting (their equipment isn't recognized, can't/won't change and feel they can't shoot in any other class).
> 
> The current rule about having enough shooters per class for awards and SOY points hinders participation as well. Unless there are 3 (?) shooters per class that shoot all the year's tournaments then SOY points are not awarded. I know of at least 5 people that have stopped shooting Ohio Archery Association (OAA) shoots due to this rule. All are FITA recurve shooters. Women shooters se the same thing. Not enough in their respective classes to be awarded SOY points even though they shoot all the tournaments all year long. The field is spread too thin.


when will every one get to understand that BH, BHFS, BHFSL has nothing to do with Bow hunting. It was never meant to be or will in the future. The BH classes took the place of the old heavy tackle div. It was called BH because it was thought to be able to attract all of the actual bow hunters out there to the NFAA because they would be able to identify. It didn't happen . So please stop trying to equate the two. Yes, some do use their actual equipment , but all of the rules are for the target end of the game & not trying to kill something.


----------



## Archery Power

brtesite said:


> The reason is, that you want 3 classes, & the thread following yours wants 10. Every one protects their own & every one wants to be a winner . If we add a few more classes, we will be able to provide a bowl for all attendees


 Just the same as I posted before, all you need at the NFAA national is 3 silver bowls for the champions and that is the one that shot the higest score in each division.
That should settle who is the National champion. Three bowls for champions, no more than that, give the classes on down the lines 1 penny if you place with a ribbon tied to it, That is all the rest is needed
just to show you were there any thing more don't mean anything. This is for compound bow sight release scopes and so on, oly recurve, longbow and recurve this is basic barebow division.


----------



## hdracer

brtesite said:


> when will every one get to understand that BH, BHFS, BHFSL has nothing to do with Bow hunting. It was never meant to be or will in the future. The BH classes took the place of the old heavy tackle div. It was called BH because it was thought to be able to attract all of the actual bow hunters out there to the NFAA because they would be able to identify. It didn't happen . So please stop trying to equate the two. Yes, some do use their actual equipment , but all of the rules are for the target end of the game & not trying to kill something.


Then change the name Bow Hunter and there will be no more confusion. If there is no connection to hunting why have it in the name at all? BTW, I was making a statement about my releases and threw my hunting setups in for good measure.


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## brtesite

hdracer said:


> Then change the name Bow Hunter and there will be no more confusion. If there is no connection to hunting why have it in the name at all? BTW, I was making a statement about my releases and threw my hunting setups in for good measure.


If you read my thread, the reason for the name is explained. It didn't work. I'm all for the name change


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## hdracer

Yes, I read it and understand it. The confusion comes from the name. The same goes for the IBO and the "Hunter" class. Although the IBO Hunter class is listed as an "entry level" class and people stay there for years. A lot can be taken from just a name. None of the target disciplines resemble hunting very much despite a few that say they hunt with their setups. Being able to hunt and actually hunting with them are two different things.

Sometimes simpler is better. And having fewer classes with more participants in each may be better. But there is no perfect solution and you can't please everyone.


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## zestycj7

I shoot compound non-sights and fingers. I have a 12" stabilizer don't string walk and one anchor.
It's the bow I hunt with. If I want to shoot in a national event should I have to shoot against a barebow shooter? Would that be fair to me to shoot against a string walker?
I actullay shoot Trad. style but I can not shoot in the Trad. class because I am shooting a compound.
So what class would I shoot then?
Don.


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## montigre

From the 2013 NFAA Outdoor National Results:

Adult Division/ # Competitors Senior Division/# Competitors Master Senior Division/# Competitors Silver Senior Division/# Competitors 
AFBH: 1 SFBH: 0 MSFBH: 1 SSFBH: 1
AFBHFS: 3 SFBHFS: 2 MSFBHFS: 0 SSFBHFS: 1 
AFMBHFSL: 1 SFBHFSL: 1 MSBHFSL: 0 SSBHFSL: 0
AFFS: 13 SFFS: 9 MSFFS: 2 SSFFS: 9
AFFSLR: 2 SFFSLR:0 MSFFSLR: 0 SSFFSL: 2
AFTRAD: 2 SFTRAD: 1 MSFTRAD: 0 SSFTRAD: 0 
AMBB: 3 SMBB: 2 MSMBB: 3 SSMBB: 3
AFBB: 0 SFBB: 1 MSFBB: 0 SSFBB: 0
AMBH: 4 SMBH: 3 MSMBH: 3 SSMBH: 3
AMBHFS: 13 SMBHFS: 13 MSFBHFS: 0 SSMBHFS: 5
AMBHFSL: 2 SMBHFSL: 0 MSMBHFSL: 1 SSMBHFSL: 1
AMFS: 39 SMFS: 18 MSMFS: 16 SSMFS: 36
AMFSL: 3 SMFSL: 5 MSMFSL: 2 SSMFSL: 4
AMFSLR: 4 SMFSLR: 1 MSMFSLR: 1 SSMFSLR: 1
AMLB: 1 SMLB: 2 MSMLB: 0 SSMLB: 1
AMTRAD: 4 SMTRAD: 3 MSMTRAD: 1 SSMTTRAD: 1

The majority of the current divisions do not appear to have sufficient participation levels to warrant a stand-alone division and probably should be combined within another division, for example, the female bowhunter and female bowhunter freestyle divisions should be combined with the female freestyle division and female bowhunter freestyle limited should be combined with female freestyle limited. If all of the divisions producing less than 3 entrants on a consistent basis are grouped with an appropriate larger division, the cost of providing national/sectional awards would be substantially decreased and more funds and promotional effort could be placed on those divisions whose numbers are constant or growing.

Sorry, editing is lost...


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## brtesite

I think what needs to be done, is have a committee That has some hutspua (?) to come in with a slash & burn of the divisions. It will be painful , but it is time to bite the bullet , start all over again & remember the mistakes. Burn the rule book, & start with a fresh page. Change some of the shooting rules. Do you realize that some of the rules go back to the old days when there were very few aiming systems.
It has gotten so that the rules are adapting to the archer rather than the archer adapting to the rules.

These are the rules, change your style & equipment to fit what is offered 
Just my $2.00 worth


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## 2413gary

Great idea Mike but you know as well as anybody it must be done in petition form. so lets get to writing


brtesite said:


> I think what needs to be done, is have a committee That has some hutspua (?) to come in with a slash & burn of the divisions. It will be painful , but it is time to bite the bullet , start all over again & remember the mistakes. Burn the rule book, & start with a fresh page. Change some of the shooting rules. Do you realize that some of the rules go back to the old days when there were very few aiming systems.
> It has gotten so that the rules are adapting to the archer rather than the archer adapting to the rules.
> 
> These are the rules, change your style & equipment to fit what is offered
> Just my $2.00 worth


----------



## montigre

brtesite said:


> I think what needs to be done, is have a committee That has some hutspua (?) to come in with a slash & burn of the divisions. It will be painful , but it is time to bite the bullet , start all over again & remember the mistakes. Burn the rule book, & start with a fresh page. Change some of the shooting rules. Do you realize that some of the rules go back to the old days when there were very few aiming systems.
> It has gotten so that the rules are adapting to the archer rather than the archer adapting to the rules.
> 
> These are the rules, change your style & equipment to fit what is offered
> Just my $2.00 worth


:thumbs_up


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## brtesite

I don't write any more. I've been putout to pasture


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## deadeyedickwc

mike the over 80 group could be the depends division


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## 2413gary

Freestyle
Freestyle Lmt.
BH Freestyle
Barebow
Recurve Freestyle Lmt.
Recurve
Longbow
Senior all styles 55 and up

This will take us from 72 bowls to 28 true Champions 
I here a lot about we need to take care of the seinors because we out number the rest God will do that for us. we need to preserve NFAA archery

I am willing to give up my style to do this are you ?


----------



## itbeso

brtesite said:


> I think what needs to be done, is have a committee That has some hutspua (?) to come in with a slash & burn of the divisions. It will be painful , but it is time to bite the bullet , start all over again & remember the mistakes. Burn the rule book, & start with a fresh page. Change some of the shooting rules. Do you realize that some of the rules go back to the old days when there were very few aiming systems.
> It has gotten so that the rules are adapting to the archer rather than the archer adapting to the rules.
> 
> These are the rules, change your style & equipment to fit what is offered
> Just my $2.00 worth


Mike, that's plagiarism.:teeth:


----------



## itbeso

2413gary said:


> Freestyle
> Freestyle Lmt.
> BH Freestyle
> Barebow
> Recurve Freestyle Lmt.
> Recurve
> Longbow
> Senior all styles 55 and up
> 
> This will take us from 72 bowls to 28 true Champions
> I here a lot about we need to take care of the seinors because we out number the rest God will do that for us. we need to preserve NFAA archery
> 
> I am willing to give up my style to do this are you ?


Compound, Olympic style, Recurve barebow. This brings us in line with World Archery, There would be a little biting of the bullet by a lot of us but sometimes that just has to be. By the way, I think this would be a great way to improve our chances in Olympic competition if our finger shooter competition was primarily Oly style.


----------



## pokynojoe

I'm a board member of my state's field archery association, and have been for some time. I can tell you that I would be hesitant to add any of these plans on the agenda for discussion at our annual meeting, for fear of being laughed out of the room.

Look, I'm for consolidation as much as anyone, but as long as there are members involved with the decision making process, and let's be real, we all have prejudices and agendas, nothing will happen. We all have those classes, styles we hold near and dear and want to protect, I'm just as guilty as the next person.

The committee idea actually isn't a bad one. Here's what I and some of the old timers in my club have come up with.

Corporations, companies, what have you, all make use of independent auditors, maybe it's time we do too. An independent group of auditors should be given a mandate to come up with three alternate plans, they can take a year to do it. I'm going to be conservative here and say that each plan must reduce the number of styles, classes, what have you by 30%(why 30%, consensus among my old fart group thinks it's doable, in other words, purely arbitrary figure!). At the end of the year, say at Vegas the national poohbahs MUST pick one of the plans. Yes, there should be a time period alloted for feed back from the membership, after all they pay the dues, however, THE BOARD must have they're feet held to the fire and select one of the plans.

I think this, or something like this may be the only way we see any meaningful change.

And by the way, just so you know, there is a name for the 80 and over class, our guys call themselves the "Already dead but too stupid to lay down" class.


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## 2413gary

make barebow compound and recurve and I'm good


itbeso said:


> Compound, Olympic style, Recurve barebow. This brings us in line with World Archery, There would be a little biting of the bullet by a lot of us but sometimes that just has to be. By the way, I think this would be a great way to improve our chances in Olympic competition if our finger shooter competition was primarily Oly style.


----------



## field14

brtesite said:


> I think what needs to be done, is have a committee That has some hutspua (?) to come in with a slash & burn of the divisions. It will be painful , but it is time to bite the bullet , start all over again & remember the mistakes. Burn the rule book, & start with a fresh page. Change some of the shooting rules. Do you realize that some of the rules go back to the old days when there were very few aiming systems.
> It has gotten so that the rules are adapting to the archer rather than the archer adapting to the rules.
> 
> These are the rules, change your style & equipment to fit what is offered
> Just my $2.00 worth


Mike,
Now that you are a "normal" NFAA member and you know exactly the "ropes" for getting something like this through the process, perhaps you could write this up as an agenda item to get this committee formed up. The committee should be charged with the responsibility, as I think was previously mentioned, to come up with a maximum of 3 and minimum of 2 proposals to realign the divisions within the NFAA. Then, in addition, they'd also be charged with a rewrite of the shooting rules, time limits, items allowed on the outdoor courses, etc and modernize the field and hunter rounds offering up two or three alternatives.
Part of this, however would have to be that the NFAA Directors would be charged with accepting ONE of those proposals and could not just "send it back to committee" and put off any action at all. It would have to be written so that once the committee has done its job, the Directors MUST accept one of the proposals and implement it.

Just my thoughts...

field14 (Tom D.)


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Mike,
> Now that you are a "normal" NFAA member and you know exactly the "ropes" for getting something like this through the process, perhaps you could write this up as an agenda item to get this committee formed up. The committee should be charged with the responsibility, as I think was previously mentioned, to come up with a maximum of 3 and minimum of 2 proposals to realign the divisions within the NFAA. Then, in addition, they'd also be charged with a rewrite of the shooting rules, time limits, items allowed on the outdoor courses, etc and modernize the field and hunter rounds offering up two or three alternatives.
> Part of this, however would have to be that the NFAA Directors would be charged with accepting ONE of those proposals and could not just "send it back to committee" and put off any action at all. It would have to be written so that once the committee has done its job, the Directors MUST accept one of the proposals and implement it.
> 
> Just my thoughts...
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom, there have been a lot of differing ideas on this subject but, the good thing is that a lot of us see the problem and are now talking about it in a forum. Hopefully ,enough people who are interested in the welfare of the NFAA instead of their own interests, will join together to right the ship. I have proposed and still like the idea of having a committee of people dedicated to archerys survival, setting all the rules as opposed to letting the chickens run the henhouse.


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## Arcus

itbeso said:


> Compound, Olympic style, Recurve barebow. This brings us in line with World Archery


:thumbs_up


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## dragonheart II

zestycj7 said:


> I shoot compound non-sights and fingers. I have a 12" stabilizer don't string walk and one anchor.
> It's the bow I hunt with. If I want to shoot in a national event should I have to shoot against a barebow shooter? Would that be fair to me to shoot against a string walker?
> I actullay shoot Trad. style but I can not shoot in the Trad. class because I am shooting a compound.
> So what class would I shoot then?
> Don.


You would shoot barebow. Yes you would shoot against stringwalkers. You have the advantage of arrow speed, they have the advantage of string walking. You can shoot your same gear and be competitive with barebow stringwalkers.


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## grantmac

zestycj7 said:


> I shoot compound non-sights and fingers. I have a 12" stabilizer don't string walk and one anchor.
> It's the bow I hunt with. If I want to shoot in a national event should I have to shoot against a barebow shooter? Would that be fair to me to shoot against a string walker?
> I actullay shoot Trad. style but I can not shoot in the Trad. class because I am shooting a compound.
> So what class would I shoot then?
> Don.


You'd shoot with all the other compounds. Or you could pick-up a recurve and shoot in recurve barebow.


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## 2413gary

Putting Don in the Compound class shooting nonsight would be like letting him shoot in the Recurve barebow class with his compound I don't see the logic. no mater what we change its going to be hard.
Gary


grantmac said:


> You'd shoot with all the other compounds. Or you could pick-up a recurve and shoot in recurve barebow.


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## grantmac

2413gary said:


> Putting Don in the Compound class shooting nonsight would be like letting him shoot in the Recurve barebow class with his compound I don't see the logic. no mater what we change its going to be hard.
> Gary


The difference is that only the NFAA offers a class for him and very few people shoot it. People who shoot Rec BB under WA rules are excluded from the NFAA and yet make-up a fairly large segment of competitive archery both domestically and especially on the international stage. Look at the Adult achievement awards for JOAD: they now include BB. Likewise NAA offers a BB category. Both are growing by leaps and bounds. When was the last time someone young won NFAA Nationals in either BH or BB?
Those are the recurve shooters we should be bringing into the NFAA because they already compete! Heck the WA state 3D BB class was shot by one person last year and it was a JOAD adult shooting Rec BB. If I'd known he was going to enter I'd have gladly joined him.

You can't get non-competitors to compete. Just look at Trad shooters: The most popular events don't even keep score! Whats the point? Why are we trying to get them to participate when they clearly aren't interested?

All compounds shoot together, seems simple enough. Don't like it? Pick-up a recurve and choose which class you want to shoot in: FSR or BB.

-Grant


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## zestycj7

Grant,
What you are saying is that if I want to shoot my compound in the style I do, I would have to shoot againts compound freestyle shooters that shoot with all the bells and whistles?
And if I didn't like it I would have to put sights on my bow to be competitive or shoot in the recurve class if I wanted to shoot non-sights and fingers?.
How would that be fair, when compounds first came out, was it not that the non-sight finger compound class the largest at most shoots arcoss the country?
How about this....
Make the compound class a non-sight finger class. This way all the sighted compound shooters can get back to their roots and learn just what the "Art Form" archery really is.
Put everyone on the same plain. Make it a real sport of skill, not just putting a pin on the spot and shooting a bullseye.
Don.


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## grantmac

zestycj7 said:


> Grant,
> What you are saying is that if I want to shoot my compound in the style I do, I would have to shoot againts compound freestyle shooters that shoot with all the bells and whistles?
> And if I didn't like it I would have to put sights on my bow to be competitive or shoot in the recurve class if I wanted to shoot non-sights and fingers?.
> How would that be fair, when compounds first came out, was it not that the non-sight finger compound class the largest at most shoots arcoss the country?
> How about this....
> Make the compound class a non-sight finger class. This way all the sighted compound shooters can get back to their roots and learn just what the "Art Form" archery really is.
> Put everyone on the same plain. Make it a real sport of skill, not just putting a pin on the spot and shooting a bullseye.
> Don.



There should be one compound class period, freestyle just like WA. Keeping the NFAA mis-aligned with the rest of the world to give a handful of shooters a class to play in is short sighted.
That is the NFAA problem. It's been all "me, me, me" for decades. Shooters would rather have the classes adapted to their style, rather than adapting their style to the class. Or just accepting that they aren't going to be competitive which is also an option.

-Grant


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## itbeso

grantmac said:


> There should be one compound class period, freestyle just like WA. Keeping the NFAA mis-aligned with the rest of the world to give a handful of shooters a class to play in is short sighted.
> That is the NFAA problem. It's been all "me, me, me" for decades. Shooters would rather have the classes adapted to their style, rather than adapting their style to the class. Or just accepting that they aren't going to be competitive which is also an option.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, had to think about this one for awhile, and while I think we should align as close as possible with World archery, deep down i feel we should keep a compound barebow division in Nfaa. So, for me, I will advocate for Freestyle, Oly style, recurve barebow, and compound barebow.


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## field14

zestycj7 said:


> Grant,
> What you are saying is that if I want to shoot my compound in the style I do, I would have to shoot againts compound freestyle shooters that shoot with all the bells and whistles?
> And if I didn't like it I would have to put sights on my bow to be competitive or shoot in the recurve class if I wanted to shoot non-sights and fingers?.
> How would that be fair, when compounds first came out, was it not that the non-sight finger compound class the largest at most shoots arcoss the country?
> How about this....
> Make the compound class a non-sight finger class. This way all the sighted compound shooters can get back to their roots and learn just what the "Art Form" archery really is.
> Put everyone on the same plain. Make it a real sport of skill, not just putting a pin on the spot and shooting a bullseye.
> Don.


No, when compounds first came out it was the FREESTYLERS that dominated in participation, as it was before the compounds came out. While barebow recurve was popular, it did not have the levels of participation either before or after the compounds were "legalized."

Fair has nothing to do with it. if the way you shoot isn't offered, then change to something that is offered. The days of making a class for a "left-handed, right eye dominant, short drawlength, three fingers under, with a hang-nail on one finger" class are over!


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## field14

itbeso said:


> Grant, had to think about this one for awhile, and while I think we should align as close as possible with World archery, deep down i feel we should keep a compound barebow division in Nfaa. So, for me, I will advocate for Freestyle, Oly style, recurve barebow, and compound barebow.


I could go along with it, except that compound barebow on a National level does NOT have the numbers to justify keeping it. For this year's National outdoor, there were THREE competitors in the AMBB, and FOUR in AMBH. It is a challenge to shoot a compound barebow due to the extremes a person has to undertake to get the arrow flight decent for the entire "crawl distance" from point on on down to the bottom of the crawl for 20 yards and closer. Takes a lot of time to get the compound set right for this huge variation in pulling point on the string. Recurve bows are tillered for this and it doesn't pose the arrow flight problems.

I figure the shooters need to knock off wanting a shooting style for every variant they can think of. What about RELEASE BAREBOW COMPOUND that some people want to have the NFAA institute? Say what? If how you wanna shoot isn't available, then you'll just have to bite the bullet and opt for a style that IS available and adapt YOU to it.
The "ME,ME", "ME" and the "I, "I", "I" is getting worse all the time. Getting to the point that "I" and "ME" are everything and to heck with anyone/everyone else. Time to stop and realize the world doesn't revolve around the "I" and the "ME" and sure won't start and stop to let "I" or "ME" on and off either. You may be told that you are "special"...but that can only go so far in life...and then the "ME special" stops. Life ain't "fair"; and you'll just have to learn to handle the truth. Yep, that's the end of the "lecture."

Too many classes and styles is only one of the problems with NFAA...but it is indeed a big problem and the solution is....start "cutting off" those classes that consistently show little participation and/or combine them into those that are similar and DO have the numbers of participants. Start by NO AWARDS given at Sectional and National level if a person is the only one in their class, and only ONE award given if there are 3 or less.


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## zestycj7

field14 said:


> No, when compounds first came out it was the FREESTYLERS that dominated in participation, as it was before the compounds came out. While barebow recurve was popular, it did not have the levels of participation either before or after the compounds were "legalized."
> 
> If is is so simple and you got it figured you just hang a sight on there and go hit bullseyes, then grab up your release and compound, put on a sight and peep and step right up on the line with Reo Wilde, Dave Cousins, Braden Gillenthein, Jesse Broadwater, Duane Price, Rodger Willett, Jr, and show them how it is so easy...while YOU shoot that perfect 1440 FITA round (when the world record is 1418, or something near that). Must hurt to be soooooo good to think it is soooooo easy and automatic.


Tom,Tom,Tom,
You must not of even read what I wrote.
I said when compounds were first used in comps, not when bows were used in comps.
And as far as getting a sight and a release and hanging it on my bow, been there done that. It was "WAY Boring".
I never said anything about being able to shoot against the top shooters in the world now did I?
I don't belive I did.
Why don't you take and toss all the garbage off your bow and see if you can shoot with the top "Bowhunter Shooters"
I never said anything about me shooting barebow, I don't. Bowhunter and Barebow are two completly different styles.
Have a great day.
Don.


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## field14

zestycj7 said:


> Tom,Tom,Tom,
> You must not of even read what I wrote.
> I said when compounds were first used in comps, not when bows were used in comps.
> And as far as getting a sight and a release and hanging it on my bow, been there done that. It was "WAY Boring".
> I never said anything about being able to shoot against the top shooters in the world now did I?
> I don't belive I did.
> Why don't you take and toss all the garbage off your bow and see if you can shoot with the top "Bowhunter Shooters"
> I never said anything about me shooting barebow, I don't. Bowhunter and Barebow are two completly different styles.
> Have a great day.
> Don.


Don, when compounds were first used in competitions (early 1970's)...it still was NOT barebow that was the dominant class...it was Freestyle, Sad to say that recurve shooters mostly shot directly against the compounders, as did, initially good fingers/recurve shooters shoot directly against compound/release shooters. Then the divvying up of all this stuff started and continues nearly unabated today.

Well, let's see, I started out barebow then went barebow/string walking...and won several tournaments in both of those. My roots were with non-sighted shooting. I've also shot many 300's indoors with fingers recurve and fingers compound with sights (scopes or pins, didn't matter), too. Been into the 540's NFAA new target with BHFS equipment and ALUMINUM arrows, too and also shot a high of 548 (old target) with recurve and fingers, along with several 560 animal rounds. I've also dabbled in recurve OLY style years ago and did just fine there; not world class but sure had some decent scores on FITA and 900 rounds. About the only style I"ve not directly competed in at one time or another is the longbow (traditional style), since all my bows with nuttin' but strings on them have been either semi-recurve or recurve. Never have owned a long bow.
Yes, I know that bowhunter and barebow are two different styles, and YES! Have shot bowhunter "style" too. And at the outdoor Nationals this year, there were MORE of those than there were barebow shooters; 3 for barebow and 4 for bowhunter. The indoor Nationals in 2012 only had TWO in AMBH, while AMBB had 10...so AMBH doesn't really have a participation level; thus it would be one of many that could be on the "chopping block."
Barebow at 2012 Vegas had 31 people in it, which isn't too bad. Apparently AMBH isn't offered at Vegas, but I'd suspect there wouldn't be much of a showing.

SO, yes, I've taken that "stuff" off my bow and took lots of $5 and $10 bets from people that told me "Take that crap off your bow and I'll bet you I'll put a whoopin' on ya." Lots of fun, that was; at least for me, hahahaha. In addition for many years, I shot my compounds with FINGERS in 3-D competitions, but entered against the release shooters and while I didn't win all the time, I did my fair share of wins and podium finishes. I didn't start hunting with a release aid until after I switched from left to right handed in 1986.
I've also seen many other "freestylers" take the "crap" off their bows and had people making those statements eat crow, too.

You gotta know a bit about the person with whom you are blabbing before you blab and make bets or comments about removing the stuff and competing; you are likely to be surprised more often than not, hahahaha.

So much for that soapbox...but on the more positive note: I can also tell from what you say that you flat like shooting your bow...and that is ALL good; nothing wrong with that passion. I, too, like shooting my bows and I'll shoot recurve or anything else if I decide to do it "that way." 
We all just have to be realistic and realize that the NFAA or any org cannot continue to create new classes just cuz....in fact, things need to be cut back to the "bone" and have the shooters adapt to the classes and NOT the classes being all created for a couple of shooters.


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## zestycj7

You gotta know a bit about the person with whom you are blabbing before you blab and make bets or comments about removing the stuff and competing; you are likely to be surprised more often than not, hahahaha.[/QUOTE]

Well you might want to listen to your own words then.
I am not new to this shooting stuff, I started shooting Bowhunter when the first wood riser Jennings came out, so I guess I have been around the block too.
Then suprise me. I made no bets.
Don.


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> I could go along with it, except that compound barebow on a National level does NOT have the numbers to justify keeping it. For this year's National outdoor, there were THREE competitors in the AMBB, and FOUR in AMBH. It is a challenge to shoot a compound barebow due to the extremes a person has to undertake to get the arrow flight decent for the entire "crawl distance" from point on on down to the bottom of the crawl for 20 yards and closer. Takes a lot of time to get the compound set right for this huge variation in pulling point on the string. Recurve bows are tillered for this and it doesn't pose the arrow flight problems.
> 
> I figure the shooters need to knock off wanting a shooting style for every variant they can think of. What about RELEASE BAREBOW COMPOUND that some people want to have the NFAA institute? Say what? If how you wanna shoot isn't available, then you'll just have to bite the bullet and opt for a style that IS available and adapt YOU to it.
> The "ME,ME", "ME" and the "I, "I", "I" is getting worse all the time. Getting to the point that "I" and "ME" are everything and to heck with anyone/everyone else. Time to stop and realize the world doesn't revolve around the "I" and the "ME" and sure won't start and stop to let "I" or "ME" on and off either. You may be told that you are "special"...but that can only go so far in life...and then the "ME special" stops. Life ain't "fair"; and you'll just have to learn to handle the truth. Yep, that's the end of the "lecture."
> 
> Too many classes and styles is only one of the problems with NFAA...but it is indeed a big problem and the solution is....start "cutting off" those classes that consistently show little participation and/or combine them into those that are similar and DO have the numbers of participants. Start by NO AWARDS given at Sectional and National level if a person is the only one in their class, and only ONE award given if there are 3 or less.


Tom, I understand and share your passion for making things better within the Nfaa but your facts and figures hardly do justice for reality. First,, the numbers you quoted were only for Nationals Participation this year but they hardly reflect local and state tournaments across the country. At Redding this year, we had 24 participants in the barebow money shoot with another 30-40 who just shot for the awards and in our local shoots here in California, which , by the way, usually draw 200-500 shooters every weekend of the year, there are usually up to 50 shooters shooting the bh, bb, or trad divisions. I don't think we can use the Nationals totals as a bellweather, especially with todays economy and the fact that there were 3 other national events the two weeks prior to Darrington and the week after where the nonsight shooters were very well represented. Slowly , but surely, we Nfaa types are getting our 3-d brethren into field shooting as most of them started in 3-d and have never been exposed to field. JMHO


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## field14

itbeso said:


> Tom, I understand and share your passion for making things better within the Nfaa but your facts and figures hardly do justice for reality. First,, the numbers you quoted were only for Nationals Participation this year but they hardly reflect local and state tournaments across the country. At Redding this year, we had 24 participants in the barebow money shoot with another 30-40 who just shot for the awards and in our local shoots here in California, which , by the way, usually draw 200-500 shooters every weekend of the year, there are usually up to 50 shooters shooting the bh, bb, or trad divisions. I don't think we can use the Nationals totals as a bellweather, especially with todays economy and the fact that there were 3 other national events the two weeks prior to Darrington and the week after where the nonsight shooters were very well represented. Slowly , but surely, we Nfaa types are getting our 3-d brethren into field shooting as most of them started in 3-d and have never been exposed to field. JMHO


My facts and figures are reality...based upon the data that is directly available. The problem is, that the NFAA will use the figures from the NATIONAL events and maybe the SECTIONAL events along with Vegas and "Maybe" Redding when making decisions about class structures. It would be next to impossible to get the feedback from the local/club levels on their events, even if the NFAA contacted ALL the affiliated clubs about the turnouts and counts for each and every shooting style!! I'd imagine that the response rate would likely be very minimal.

I lived in Sacremento, CA for a while, and I do well recall clubs renting buses to go to tournaments, or caravaning it. I don't know if the turnout for FIELD or Novelty events is still as good now as it was then, but talk about turnout! OMG! 
To me, It is GOOD if the BB and BH if those styles are growing in your area..but the representation at the other events has been minimal, and the BH class isn't even offered at Vegas, but BB is still reasonably well represented. In this area, there are...ZERO BB shooters, and ZERO BH shooters. The only time I've seen BB or BH is when I've demoed it for people with either compound or recurved bows. A few have then tried it and got a "kick" out of it. Stringwalking seems to really entice people; they think that is neat stuff! Do they stick with it? No. but at least they have the exposure to it.

I also agree solidly with your statement that NFAA "types" are getting our 3-D brethren into field shooting. You are right in that most of today's 3-D types have never been exposed to field shooting; but when they are, they get hooked big time... However, many are also listening to the "naysayers" that figure 3-D is the only showboat in town...those that know nothing about NFAA and field shooting...never tried it, but make their negativity well known.
Another problem is some of the NFAA types that harp on how "hard and difficult" the Field and hunter rounds are, what with that 80 and 70 walkup and all. They never tell those newbies that there are only two arrows all day from each of those distances. Rather they scare the heck out of them with negativity about it and then, instead of allowing the newbies to just shoot whatever they want and get them familiar with things first...they take 'em right on out and shoot full round/full distance right off the bat. Whoopso.
We have GOT to be positive about field/hunter/animal rounds. I have yet to take a 3-der onto a field or hunter course and have them quit on me. Nearly all of them want to come back for MORE of this; most say, "Dang, this is fun, and I get to shoot lots of arrows, and I LIKE to shoot lots of arrows."
This is quite contrary to the naysaysers that are saying "field has too many arrows, and is too hard, and too long of distance." Those are the ones that really are clueless and are not necessarily speaking from experience, but rather from 2nd hand information...


----------



## pokynojoe

itbeso said:


> Tom, I understand and share your passion for making things better within the Nfaa but your facts and figures hardly do justice for reality. First,, the numbers you quoted were only for Nationals Participation this year but they hardly reflect local and state tournaments across the country. At Redding this year, we had 24 participants in the barebow money shoot with another 30-40 who just shot for the awards and in our local shoots here in California, which , by the way, usually draw 200-500 shooters every weekend of the year, there are usually up to 50 shooters shooting the bh, bb, or trad divisions. I don't think we can use the Nationals totals as a bellweather, especially with todays economy and the fact that there were 3 other national events the two weeks prior to Darrington and the week after where the nonsight shooters were very well represented. Slowly , but surely, we Nfaa types are getting our 3-d brethren into field shooting as most of them started in 3-d and have never been exposed to field. JMHO


Wow, I haven't seen numbers like that at a field shoot in over 25 years. This year's state field championship had about a dozen...TOTAL. I don't believe there were any shooters in any finger class. I guess it doesn't matter what happens, it's probably too late for here. Our 3-D shoots are what's keeping us alive, I don't believe we'd survive just holding field shoots. I don't know where all these "local and state tournaments" are being held that are drawing all these numbers, but I know they sure aren't anywhere around here.


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## itbeso

pokynojoe said:


> Wow, I haven't seen numbers like that at a field shoot in over 25 years. This year's state field championship had about a dozen...TOTAL. I don't believe there were any shooters in any finger class. I guess it doesn't matter what happens, it's probably too late for here. Our 3-D shoots are what's keeping us alive, I don't believe we'd survive just holding field shoots. I don't know where all these "local and state tournaments" are being held that are drawing all these numbers, but I know they sure aren't anywhere around here.


Joe, you sound skeptical. Our local shoots here in California are mostly marked yardage 3-d targets along the lines of the Redding shoot. Last year, our state 900 round drew well over 300 shooters and if I am not mistaken our state field drew well over 200. Unmarked archery is pretty sparse here in California. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of archers willing to build field ranges in the other states, then promote field shooting, and listen to all the grumbling if something is not right. Fortunately, here in california, we have dozens and dozens of field ranges already in place and a strong background in that type of archery.


----------



## itbeso

field14 said:


> My facts and figures are reality...based upon the data that is directly available. The problem is, that the NFAA will use the figures from the NATIONAL events and maybe the SECTIONAL events along with Vegas and "Maybe" Redding when making decisions about class structures. It would be next to impossible to get the feedback from the local/club levels on their events, even if the NFAA contacted ALL the affiliated clubs about the turnouts and counts for each and every shooting style!! I'd imagine that the response rate would likely be very minimal.
> 
> I lived in Sacremento, CA for a while, and I do well recall clubs renting buses to go to tournaments, or caravaning it. I don't know if the turnout for FIELD or Novelty events is still as good now as it was then, but talk about turnout! OMG!
> To me, It is GOOD if the BB and BH if those styles are growing in your area..but the representation at the other events has been minimal, and the BH class isn't even offered at Vegas, but BB is still reasonably well represented. In this area, there are...ZERO BB shooters, and ZERO BH shooters. The only time I've seen BB or BH is when I've demoed it for people with either compound or recurved bows. A few have then tried it and got a "kick" out of it. Stringwalking seems to really entice people; they think that is neat stuff! Do they stick with it? No. but at least they have the exposure to it.
> 
> I also agree solidly with your statement that NFAA "types" are getting our 3-D brethren into field shooting. You are right in that most of today's 3-D types have never been exposed to field shooting; but when they are, they get hooked big time... However, many are also listening to the "naysayers" that figure 3-D is the only showboat in town...those that know nothing about NFAA and field shooting...never tried it, but make their negativity well known.
> Another problem is some of the NFAA types that harp on how "hard and difficult" the Field and hunter rounds are, what with that 80 and 70 walkup and all. They never tell those newbies that there are only two arrows all day from each of those distances. Rather they scare the heck out of them with negativity about it and then, instead of allowing the newbies to just shoot whatever they want and get them familiar with things first...they take 'em right on out and shoot full round/full distance right off the bat. Whoopso.
> We have GOT to be positive about field/hunter/animal rounds. I have yet to take a 3-der onto a field or hunter course and have them quit on me. Nearly all of them want to come back for MORE of this; most say, "Dang, this is fun, and I get to shoot lots of arrows, and I LIKE to shoot lots of arrows."
> This is quite contrary to the naysaysers that are saying "field has too many arrows, and is too hard, and too long of distance." Those are the ones that really are clueless and are not necessarily speaking from experience, but rather from 2nd hand information...


Tom, again you need to get your facts straight. For years there was a bowhunter class at Vegas , no barebow class, then the powers that be decided to include the barebow shooters which made it appropriate to call it barebow, as bowhunter is a cruder form of barebow. If you were to petition the archers in that class I think you would find an overwhelming number of those competitors are from the BH or trad class, not barebow. I think most of us barebow types realize that manufacturers have been trying to eliminate the barebow divisions as there aren't too many accessories they can sell us:smile: but somewhere down the line that attitude is going to bite them in the butt.


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## reylamb

And there you have it......the reason the classes will never get reduced is because no one wants to give up their style....combine classes? Not fair......etc, etc, etc....

Although, at the end of the day.....is competing with 2 folks really competing? Is winning a national title in a class of 1 really an accomplishment?

I actually no someone that loves to tell folks they are a ____ time state champion archer in 3 or 4 different organizations, for the last ___ years......but they forget to tell anyone that they are the only person in their class.

Is it time to say, hey, I need to make a sacrifice on my style for the betterment of the organization as a whole? Or is it time for the organization to say......it is time to let go of the past. Here again, ASA made that decision a few years ago and dropped the Limited (fingers) Pro class.....


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## reylamb

itbeso said:


> I think most of us barebow types realize that manufacturers have been trying to eliminate the barebow divisions as there aren't too many accessories they can sell us:smile: but somewhere down the line that attitude is going to bite them in the butt.


How? Not nearly enough of a market share to bite the mfg in the butt......I'm sorry, but it is the truth. Less than 5% of archers in all organizations and hunters, shoot that style...abandoning that really will not have any significant affect on much from the mfg perspective.....


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## pokynojoe

itbeso said:


> Joe, you sound skeptical. Our local shoots here in California are mostly marked yardage 3-d targets along the lines of the Redding shoot. Last year, our state 900 round drew well over 300 shooters and if I am not mistaken our state field drew well over 200. Unmarked archery is pretty sparse here in California. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of archers willing to build field ranges in the other states, then promote field shooting, and listen to all the grumbling if something is not right. Fortunately, here in california, we have dozens and dozens of field ranges already in place and a strong background in that type of archery.


Ben
Not at all. With the population you have in California, it's basically a "country" unto itself. I don't doubt what you say at all! I remember when our monthly club field shoots would draw 300-400, but those days are long gone. Last months club shoot drew 6. 
Having said that, I don't believe what your experiencing is typical of what's happening out here in the "hinterland". So I guess the upshot of all this is that I guess we wouldn't be affected one way or the other by your proposal or any of the others put forth in this thread. The reality of the situation is it's probably too late to make much of a difference here.

Maybe I'm a little confused, I thought this thread was about the NFAA and it's classes as pertains to field archery, I don't really consider 3-D when I think NFAA. Maybe that's our problem. My club has a very active ASA contigent, that's really what's keeping us viable. Our NFAA charter goes back to 1956, every year I wonder if it's our last.


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## Eriks

itbeso said:


> Joe, you sound skeptical. Our local shoots here in California are mostly marked yardage 3-d targets along the lines of the Redding shoot. Last year, our state 900 round drew well over 300 shooters and if I am not mistaken our state field drew well over 200. Unmarked archery is pretty sparse here in California. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of archers willing to build field ranges in the other states, then promote field shooting, and listen to all the grumbling if something is not right. Fortunately, here in california, we have dozens and dozens of field ranges already in place and a strong background in that type of archery.


California state field results. http://www.cbhsaa.net/2013-F.pdf I didn't count but there's probably more than 300 names on the results. It's 9 pages long.

Both the shoot at San Francisco archers last weekend (two day shoot) and the one at Mt Madonna a few weeks back (both marked yardage 3D) had about 350 shooters. SFA also had a really hard 10 target unmarked 3D last weekend.


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## itbeso

reylamb said:


> How? Not nearly enough of a market share to bite the mfg in the butt......I'm sorry, but it is the truth. Less than 5% of archers in all organizations and hunters, shoot that style...abandoning that really will not have any significant affect on much from the mfg perspective.....


Reylamb, it is naysayers like yourself that help keep these rumors and misinformation going. Lets take the Nfaa and Nasp and combine them. There are approx. 12-13000 nfaa members and there were over 8ooo Nasp shooters at the Louisville tournamentThats 21000 archers, of whom all the Naspers were shooting fingers with no sights. Throw 2000 thousand Nfaa'ers in there and it would seem your 5% THEORY IS FULL OF HOLES. That doesn' take into account all the Nasp finger shooters that did not attend, the fact that barebow in Europe is a highly respected division, and the fact that you couldn't possibly know what percentage of archers shoot and/or hunt with a bare bow. Instead of trying to make excuses for the manufacturers, put out some credible facts.


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## Pete53

there is another way if the NFAA would do this for all classes and including youth.must come with a fare number maybe 5 or 7 ? but during the proceeding year at the NFAA indoor if that class does not have say 5 shooter`s in that class that year, its no longer a class period . its kinda a tuff rule but life has some tuff changes too .some of those bare bow classes are just a me-me-me thing anymore.


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## itbeso

Pete53 said:


> there is another way if the NFAA would do this for all classes and including youth.must come with a fare number maybe 5 or 7 ? but during the proceeding year at the NFAA indoor if that class does not have say 5 shooter`s in that class that year, its no longer a class period . its kinda a tuff rule but life has some tuff changes too .some of those bare bow classes are just a me-me-me thing anymore.


LOL Pete. Kinda like wanting a silver senior pro division, huh. Hypochrisy at it's best. Barebows roots go back further than any other style of shooting and just because most archers can't master that difficult of a way of shooting and resort to the easy way out of releases , sights, and long stabilizers, don't preach that me-me-me-me stuff. That is the motto of the freestyle division.


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## reylamb

itbeso said:


> Reylamb, it is naysayers like yourself that help keep these rumors and misinformation going. Lets take the Nfaa and Nasp and combine them. There are approx. 12-13000 nfaa members and there were over 8ooo Nasp shooters at the Louisville tournamentThats 21000 archers, of whom all the Naspers were shooting fingers with no sights. Throw 2000 thousand Nfaa'ers in there and it would seem your 5% THEORY IS FULL OF HOLES. That doesn' take into account all the Nasp finger shooters that did not attend, the fact that barebow in Europe is a highly respected division, and the fact that you couldn't possibly know what percentage of archers shoot and/or hunt with a bare bow. Instead of trying to make excuses for the manufacturers, put out some credible facts.


Really? You are going to pull the NASPers in here? I mean, seriously...........come on now, as soon as those kids get out of NASP they are getting sights and grabbing releases, if they stay with archery at all...you know it and I know it. To say otherwise is burying your head in the sand. If that were not the case, where are all the new barebow/finger shooters at the NATs, indoor or outdoor......they are simply not there. I am not talking recurvers, longbow shooters, or any of the "trad styles" here in any way shape or form....I am specifically talking finger shooting, BB compounds only.....

Fine, take the NASPers.....According to the ATA there are 18.9 million archers in the US.....let me know when the numbers get to 945000 barebow shooters, which would be 5%. So, I will give you the NASPers, and the 2000 NFAAers, although they are apparently ghost shooters because I definitely do not see 2000 listed at any tournaments, but fine, I will give you 2000.....that is 10000....lets be extra generous and give 200,000 barebow shooters that noone knows about.....for a total of 210000....that is 
1.1%..............heck, let's be really generous and give you 500000 additional compound finger or BB shooters, for a total of 710000....that is 
3.75%.....

Compound finger shooting and compound BB is dead.....even the NASP program kids do not stay with that after they have left the NASP program...heck, outside of the NASP NAT tourneys, I see very few of these kids sticking with archery at all after they have left the program....


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## reylamb

itbeso said:


> LOL Pete. Kinda like wanting a silver senior pro division, huh. Hypochrisy at it's best. Barebows roots go back further than any other style of shooting and just because most archers can't master that difficult of a way of shooting and resort to the easy way out of releases , sights, and long stabilizers, don't preach that me-me-me-me stuff. That is the motto of the freestyle division.


The model T goes back farther than anything NASCAR rides in.....but I don't see Hendrick running those out there every Sunday either.....


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## Eriks

reylamb said:


> The model T goes back farther than anything NASCAR rides in.....but I don't see Hendrick running those out there every Sunday either.....


If they really want to have a "best overall archer" award they should have anyone who wants to compete shoot one round of FS and one round of trad and add the scores.


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## reylamb

Eriks said:


> If they really want to have a "best overall archer" award they should have anyone who wants to compete shoot one round of FS and one round of trad and add the scores.


I would love to see that.....and make them shoot an indoor round, and some 3D....a total archery competition.


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## itbeso

reylamb said:


> Really? You are going to pull the NASPers in here? I mean, seriously...........come on now, as soon as those kids get out of NASP they are getting sights and grabbing releases, if they stay with archery at all...you know it and I know it. To say otherwise is burying your head in the sand. If that were not the case, where are all the new barebow/finger shooters at the NATs, indoor or outdoor......they are simply not there. I am not talking recurvers, longbow shooters, or any of the "trad styles" here in any way shape or form....I am specifically talking finger shooting, BB compounds only.....
> 
> Fine, take the NASPers.....According to the ATA there are 18.9 million archers in the US.....let me know when the numbers get to 945000 barebow shooters, which would be 5%. So, I will give you the NASPers, and the 2000 NFAAers, although they are apparently ghost shooters because I definitely do not see 2000 listed at any tournaments, but fine, I will give you 2000.....that is 10000....lets be extra generous and give 200,000 barebow shooters that noone knows about.....for a total of 210000....that is
> 1.1%..............heck, let's be really generous and give you 500000 additional compound finger or BB shooters, for a total of 710000....that is
> 3.75%.....
> 
> Compound finger shooting and compound BB is dead.....even the NASP program kids do not stay with that after they have left the NASP program...heck, outside of the NASP NAT tourneys, I see very few of these kids sticking with archery at all after they have left the program....


Using your creative numbers and math then there must have been 18 million freestylers and such at the nationals this year.LOL .I guess you are a travelling man because you state"I see very few of these kids sticking with archery at all after they have left the program" and unless you travel to all those areas, how do you know that? And even if they did drift away, how many kids that play high school football, stay with it after graduating, as you try to make it seem to be a crime to stop one sport and move on. Maybe in Georgia your assertion is true but come to California and try to make that BS stick.


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## field14

pokynojoe said:


> Ben
> Not at all. With the population you have in California, it's basically a "country" unto itself. I don't doubt what you say at all! I remember when our monthly club field shoots would draw 300-400, but those days are long gone. Last months club shoot drew 6.
> Having said that, I don't believe what your experiencing is typical of what's happening out here in the "hinterland". So I guess the upshot of all this is that I guess we wouldn't be affected one way or the other by your proposal or any of the others put forth in this thread. The reality of the situation is it's probably too late to make much of a difference here.
> 
> Maybe I'm a little confused, I thought this thread was about the NFAA and it's classes as pertains to field archery, I don't really consider 3-D when I think NFAA. Maybe that's our problem. My club has a very active ASA contigent, that's really what's keeping us viable. Our NFAA charter goes back to 1956, every year I wonder if it's our last.


Marked or unmarked 3-D is NOT "field shooting" and not related to this thread about the NFAA.
I mentioned I lived in Sacremento, CA in the early 1970's. I competed heavily during the time I was there, both indoors and outdoors. My club was the Eldorado Hills Bowmen, which I believe is still a viable club. During the time I was there, while there were "some" barebow and HEAVY TACKLE shooters, they were NOT in the majority; far from it. I've had the privilege of shooting competitively in around 37 of the contiguous United States; mostly in field tournaments, NFAA style. At no time did I EVER see "barebow", Heavy Tackle, or "Bowhunter" have the majority, or even close to the majority of shooters at the event.
The NFAA is NOT going to use strictly the "separate country of Califoria to base its decision concerning classes/shooting styles. It matters NOT at vegas if those shooting BB are "bowhunter" or not...they are registered categorically as BB, period. At the National Indoor and the National Outdoor there may be barely enough barebow to keep the class viable.
The way to get the BH class up in attendance...get the people to attend the tournaments! Obviously, at the National Level, they are NOT attending those tournaments. It matters not about CALIFORNIA local events...the rest of the country is NOT experience this vast overflow and abundance of either BB and especially not BH shooters.
NASP is actually separate, and sad to say, there are not very many NASP people coming over into target competition. NASP does NOT ALLOW sites or release aids (yet). If they did allow those items, you would see the "barebow" ranks diminish rapidly; again, apples to oranges because the NFAA allows sites and releases...while NASP does NOT allow them at all. Different as night and day, and data-wise doesn't pass because one affords that opportunity, and the other (NASP) doesn't.

With the 3-ders being mostly new in the game of archery and being "told" a lot of misinformation about NFAA and field shooting, plus the clubs, even though they are supposedly "non-profit", wanting to show off their treasury and how much PROFIT they are getting, not wanting to even attempt to have any "competition" with their 3-D events...not even for an International round (can be 30 arrows or 60 arrows, 3 per target, 20-65 yards MARKED...and they won't shoot it).

There is a 3-5-7 "rule" on the books if locals want to use it. However, it is touchy and in conflict with another part of the NFAA CBL concerning awards at NATIONAL level events. That certainly needs to be looked at and corrected. Especially when a class with only ONE or two shooters in it gets a Silver Bowl for the winner!


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## itbeso

reylamb said:


> The model T goes back farther than anything NASCAR rides in.....but I don't see Hendrick running those out there every Sunday either.....


As usual, you don't seem to read the post. I said nonsight shooting, not a particular bow. You name a particular brand, but the fact is that whether it was a model t or a mercedes or a brand new indy car, it was still just auto racing. Is a stock car going to beat an Indy car, usually not, but they both have their legions of followers. You just have a hard time disguising your contempt of any thing except freestyle archery.


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Marked or unmarked 3-D is NOT "field shooting" and not related to this thread about the NFAA.
> I mentioned I lived in Sacremento, CA in the early 1970's. I competed heavily during the time I was there, both indoors and outdoors. My club was the Eldorado Hills Bowmen, which I believe is still a viable club. During the time I was there, while there were "some" barebow and HEAVY TACKLE shooters, they were NOT in the majority; far from it. I've had the privilege of shooting competitively in around 37 of the contiguous United States; mostly in field tournaments, NFAA style. At no time did I EVER see "barebow", Heavy Tackle, or "Bowhunter" have the majority, or even close to the majority of shooters at the event.
> The NFAA is NOT going to use strictly the "separate country of Califoria to base its decision concerning classes/shooting styles. It matters NOT at vegas if those shooting BB are "bowhunter" or not...they are registered categorically as BB, period. At the National Indoor and the National Outdoor there may be barely enough barebow to keep the class viable.
> The way to get the BH class up in attendance...get the people to attend the tournaments! Obviously, at the National Level, they are NOT attending those tournaments. It matters not about CALIFORNIA local events...the rest of the country is NOT experience this vast overflow and abundance of either BB and especially not BH shooters.
> NASP is actually separate, and sad to say, there are not very many NASP people coming over into target competition. NASP does NOT ALLOW sites or release aids (yet). If they did allow those items, you would see the "barebow" ranks diminish rapidly; again, apples to oranges because the NFAA allows sites and releases...while NASP does NOT allow them at all. Different as night and day, and data-wise doesn't pass because one affords that opportunity, and the other (NASP) doesn't.
> 
> With the 3-ders being mostly new in the game of archery and being "told" a lot of misinformation about NFAA and field shooting, plus the clubs, even though they are supposedly "non-profit", wanting to show off their treasury and how much PROFIT they are getting, not wanting to even attempt to have any "competition" with their 3-D events...not even for an International round (can be 30 arrows or 60 arrows, 3 per target, 20-65 yards MARKED...and they won't shoot it).
> 
> There is a 3-5-7 "rule" on the books if locals want to use it. However, it is touchy and in conflict with another part of the NFAA CBL concerning awards at NATIONAL level events. That certainly needs to be looked at and corrected. Especially when a class with only ONE or two shooters in it gets a Silver Bowl for the winner!


Tom, going to disagree with you once again. Marked 3-d shooting is most definitely in the field archery family. All of our marked 3-d tournaments are shot on field ranges with field range distances and an occasional 100 yarder throw in.The arrow count has been shortened to three or two per target because we would never get done shooting with the number of people who attend. I would have to say that pretty close to 100% of practice here is done on field faces.


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## field14

itbeso said:


> Using your creative numbers and math then there must have been 18 million freestylers and such at the nationals this year.LOL .I guess you are a travelling man because you state"I see very few of these kids sticking with archery at all after they have left the program" and unless you travel to all those areas, how do you know that? And even if they did drift away, how many kids that play high school football, stay with it after graduating, as you try to make it seem to be a crime to stop one sport and move on. Maybe in Georgia your assertion is true but come to California and try to make that BS stick.


You gotta realize that this is the NATIONAL Field Archery Association that the thread is about. You must also realize that CALIFORNIA does NOT rule the roost either. You said California is almost another country? Well as far as the numbers for the NATIONAL events and SECTIONAL events go...with maybe and that is stretching it the SW section (I think California is SW Section, isn't it?). NOT ONE of the other sections have the BB and especially NOT the BH class even began to approach even 5%, period. Again, the NFAA will not make their decision based upon data from JUST California...and they are going to look at ACTUAL participation numbers at the National and if lucky, the Sectional Tournaments, indoors AND outdoors. Those "classes" that are not showing good turnouts...Hasta la Vista, Baby!

How many BH and how many BB shooters were at the NFAA Indoor Nationals again? How many at the OUTDOOR Nationals, which by the way was very close to YOUR neck of the woods? Now....overall, how many Men's Freestylers were there at those events. Take the total number of participants at just those two events alone. Take the total number of Men's FREESTYLERS and divide that by the total number of participants. That gives you the % of participation by Men's Freestylers. Do the same with BB and the same with BH...and divide those numbers of participants by the total number of participants.
You will quickly find that the % participation in those two shooting styles is dismally LOW...Do the same for LADIES BB? OUCH!!!

Those are the numbers, and they do not lie..and are NOT what you call "BS", because the NFAA doesn't rise and set and start and stop over what the numbers are in California...for "local unmarked 3-D events" or other things. 

I have NEVER in all the years of competition (started in 1969) seen BAREBOW ever outnumber Freestylers at any event I've competed in. And when BH was called "Heavy Tackle", that number was even lower.

However, I can see that you will have to agree to disagree with more than just me on this issue. So be it. I'm not against BB or BH...IF the numbers are there in actual participation at the NATIONAL events for the classes to be offered, but in looking back, IMHO, those numbers are NOT there to support it; questionable on the Men's side, and undoubtedly, on the Women's side the numbers are dismal.


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## itbeso

Eriks said:


> If they really want to have a "best overall archer" award they should have anyone who wants to compete shoot one round of FS and one round of trad and add the scores.


Why not having to shoot a field round in each of the classe the Nfaa has to offer, and I guarantee the winner would not be a freestyler.


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## Pete53

most of us seniors started with shooting bare bow, i shot with a long bow first then a recurve but yes i did find it easier and much more accurate and fun with a compound with sights too. i also started riding horses before i got a license to drive a car too. most of us prefer the way more accurate way in archery and a car with a heater in it. so maybe i am a little lazy my job was hard i was a lineman in minnesota, i climbed poles in all weather conditions, the last 10 years we got bucket trucks to use, i used them then too it was wonderful . no i don`t want to shoot barebow ,ride hores or climb poles anymore ! but i do like shooting 300`s, driving my silerado and dang glad i am a retired ******* ,eat`n venison !


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## Eriks

itbeso said:


> Why not having to shoot a field round in each of the classe the Nfaa has to offer, and I guarantee the winner would not be a freestyler.


It would be a non-sight finger shooter.

Way easier to turn a solid 450 trad shooter into a solid 550 FS than it is to turn a solid 550 FS into a solid 450 trad shooter.


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> You gotta realize that this is the NATIONAL Field Archery Association that the thread is about. You must also realize that CALIFORNIA does NOT rule the roost either. You said California is almost another country? Well as far as the numbers for the NATIONAL events and SECTIONAL events go...with maybe and that is stretching it the SW section (I think California is SW Section, isn't it?). NOT ONE of the other sections have the BB and especially NOT the BH class even began to approach even 5%, period. Again, the NFAA will not make their decision based upon data from JUST California...and they are going to look at ACTUAL participation numbers at the National and if lucky, the Sectional Tournaments, indoors AND outdoors. Those "classes" that are not showing good turnouts...Hasta la Vista, Baby!
> 
> How many BH and how many BB shooters were at the NFAA Indoor Nationals again? How many at the OUTDOOR Nationals, which by the way was very close to YOUR neck of the woods? Now....overall, how many Men's Freestylers were there at those events. Take the total number of participants at just those two events alone. Take the total number of Men's FREESTYLERS and divide that by the total number of participants. That gives you the % of participation by Men's Freestylers. Do the same with BB and the same with BH...and divide those numbers of participants by the total number of participants.
> You will quickly find that the % participation in those two shooting styles is dismally LOW...Do the same for LADIES BB? OUCH!!!
> 
> Those are the numbers, and they do not lie..and are NOT what you call "BS", because the NFAA doesn't rise and set and start and stop over what the numbers are in California...for "local unmarked 3-D events" or other things.
> 
> I have NEVER in all the years of competition (started in 1969) seen BAREBOW ever outnumber Freestylers at any event I've competed in. And when BH was called "Heavy Tackle", that number was even lower.
> 
> However, I can see that you will have to agree to disagree with more than just me on this issue. So be it. I'm not against BB or BH...IF the numbers are there in actual participation at the NATIONAL events for the classes to be offered, but in looking back, IMHO, those numbers are NOT there to support it; questionable on the Men's side, and undoubtedly, on the Women's side the numbers are dismal.


Gee Tom, I thought the Nfaa was what I was talking about! You seem to have an issue with California so just let me say this, with about 20% of the total Nfaa membership at any given time, I feel we do have a lot of say in what the Nfaa does, like that or not. It also seems like you wear blinders as you don't seem to be aware of all the other tournaments that take place in July and early august, drawing potential barebow shooters away from the Outdoor Nationals. IBO 3rd leg of triple crown, July 13-14. Ibo trad Worlds July 20-21, Nfaa Nationals July 24-28, ASA classic, Aug. 1-3, IBO world championships, Aug,8-11. If you were to add all the different barebow type competitors in those events, you might get enlightened a little. The question now is how does the Nfaa draw those shooters away from the other tournaments and that will be a hard question to answer.


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## itbeso

Pete53 said:


> most of us seniors started with shooting bare bow, i shot with a long bow first then a recurve but yes i did find it easier and much more accurate and fun with a compound with sights too. i also started riding horses before i got a license to drive a car too. most of us prefer the way more accurate way in archery and a car with a heater in it. so maybe i am a little lazy my job was hard i was a lineman in minnesota, i climbed poles in all weather conditions, the last 10 years we got bucket trucks to use, i used them then too it was wonderful . no i don`t want to shoot barebow ,ride hores or climb poles anymore ! but i do like shooting 300`s, driving my silerado and dang glad i am a retired ******* ,eat`n venison !


Pete, what can I say.:thumbs_up


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## field14

Eriks said:


> It would be a non-sight finger shooter.
> 
> Way easier to turn a solid 450 trad shooter into a solid 550 FS than it is to turn a solid 550 FS into a solid 450 trad shooter.


I could possibly go along with the finger shooter part of it...but a Non-sight finger shooter? I don't think I would quite go that far, and I know I would never "guarantee" that it would not be a freestyler either.

Too many assume that "all" freestylers only know how to shoot a release aid and are clueless about finger shooting, gap shooting, string-walking, etc. While there are a lot of "freestylers" out there, amateurs and pros alike, that have never had their fingers on the string...there are also a lot of us left that have shot traditional, recurve barebow, heavy tackle, freestyle limited, Freestyle OLY, Freestyle, Bowhunter Freestyle, BB an BH.
I'd pick one of the old farts in the senior division that has been around the block to win this; likely, a freestyler, or Freestyle limited shooter, but NOT a BH or BB shooter.
By the way, years ago at Vegas, the PROS (championship) were required to shoot Freestyle and then Freestyle Limited (fingers on the string), and if I recall correctly, Frank Pearson Kicked butt big time. I think they did it for two years, and I think Frank cleaned clocks both years. There are a lot of old farts out there that shot fingers and then shot Recurved bows with releases before compounds/releases were legalized. Many of them were also BB and/or heavy tackle before that.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> I could possibly go along with the finger shooter part of it...but a Non-sight finger shooter? I don't think I would quite go that far, and I know I would never "guarantee" that it would not be a freestyler either.
> 
> Too many assume that "all" freestylers only know how to shoot a release aid and are clueless about finger shooting, gap shooting, string-walking, etc. While there are a lot of "freestylers" out there, amateurs and pros alike, that have never had their fingers on the string...there are also a lot of us left that have shot traditional, recurve barebow, heavy tackle, freestyle limited, Freestyle OLY, Freestyle, Bowhunter Freestyle, BB an BH.
> I'd pick one of the old farts in the senior division that has been around the block to win this; likely, a freestyler, or Freestyle limited shooter, but NOT a BH or BB shooter.
> By the way, years ago at Vegas, the PROS (championship) were required to shoot Freestyle and then Freestyle Limited (fingers on the string), and if I recall correctly, Frank Pearson Kicked butt big time. I think they did it for two years, and I think Frank cleaned clocks both years. There are a lot of old farts out there that shot fingers and then shot Recurved bows with releases before compounds/releases were legalized. Many of them were also BB and/or heavy tackle before that.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I think it would definitely be a bb or bh archer.


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## reylamb

itbeso said:


> Using your creative numbers and math then there must have been 18 million freestylers and such at the nationals this year.LOL .I guess you are a travelling man because you state"I see very few of these kids sticking with archery at all after they have left the program" and unless you travel to all those areas, how do you know that? And even if they did drift away, how many kids that play high school football, stay with it after graduating, as you try to make it seem to be a crime to stop one sport and move on. Maybe in Georgia your assertion is true but come to California and try to make that BS stick.


Your original premise as that the MFG would be bit in the butt.........18 million freestylers? Hardly, but 18 million that shoot sights and releases....yes.


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## wa-prez

dragonheart II said:


> Originally Posted by zestycj7
> I shoot compound non-sights and fingers. I have a 12" stabilizer don't string walk and one anchor.
> It's the bow I hunt with. If I want to shoot in a national event should I have to shoot against a barebow shooter? Would that be fair to me to shoot against a string walker?
> I actullay shoot Trad. style but I can not shoot in the Trad. class because I am shooting a compound.
> So what class would I shoot then?
> Don.
> You would shoot barebow. Yes you would shoot against stringwalkers. You have the advantage of arrow speed, they have the advantage of string walking. You can shoot your same gear and be competitive with barebow stringwalkers.


Actually, in NFAA competition, a compound, with short stabilizer and no sights, single anchor point, would be Bowhunter. This is a little different from Barebow, which allows long stabilizer, clicker, and level, in addition to stringwalking.


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## field14

itbeso said:


> Tom, going to disagree with you once again. Marked 3-d shooting is most definitely in the field archery family. All of our marked 3-d tournaments are shot on field ranges with field range distances and an occasional 100 yarder throw in.The arrow count has been shortened to three or two per target because we would never get done shooting with the number of people who attend. I would have to say that pretty close to 100% of practice here is done on field faces.


Agreed, but again...3-D has NOTHING to do with the NFAA Outdoor Nationals, the National Indoor, The Vegas shoot, or the Yankton Classic. There just is something about "spots" that doesn't attract the BB or BH shooters like something that appears like an "animal" does.
I sure remember the novelty shoots that I attended while living in California as attracting HUGE crowds, and yes, larger crowds, even in the early 1970's than the field or hunter events did. El Dorado Hills was my home club, and I remember that there was an agreement among all the clubs in Northern California, and Western Nevada that club members of the HOST club could not compete in the event for awards, but rather they worked the tournament. SO when you went to their club to shoot, THEY were working the event and you got to shoot.
I remember my first novelty event. I got there an hour or more before start time, and had to hoof it quite some ways up the road...it was like wall-to-wall and end-to-end buses and vans lined up. Being an old hick from Wyoming, it was a culture shock.
So...please do NOT say I have anything against California, because that was some of the best archery I've known in my entire career. The Fresno Safari, which used to be THE premier "novelty" event before Redding "took over" was a highlight of my career for the two that I attended! Don't know if it is still going on these days or not; haven't checked.

I will say one other thing. After I left California and moved to the Midwest, it was often said that archers East of the Mississippi were about 3 years behind the power curve because the "trends" always started in California and worked their way East. Heck, they even had a term for the "high wristed" bow grips/risers back then, commonly called the "California High Wrist", and it was substantially different from the "other" high wrist grips/riser grips out there at the time. Now daze you cannot hardly find a target bow with "high wrist" grips unless you purchase an after market grip for the bow in question. 
In fact, when I arrived in Ohio after leaving California, it was almost two years AFTER that a compound/release aid could be shot on a 900 round or in the State Target Shoot in Ohio! That was a bit of a shock, but since I was a pretty decent fingers/recurved shooter that only reluctantly went to release compound, I was lovin' every minute of shooting fingers/recurve on the 900 rounds we had, and we had several of them in the summer time.


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Agreed, but again...3-D has NOTHING to do with the NFAA Outdoor Nationals, the National Indoor, The Vegas shoot, or the Yankton Classic. There just is something about "spots" that doesn't attract the BB or BH shooters like something that appears like an "animal" does.
> I sure remember the novelty shoots that I attended while living in California as attracting HUGE crowds, and yes, larger crowds, even in the early 1970's than the field or hunter events did. El Dorado Hills was my home club, and I remember that there was an agreement among all the clubs in Northern California, and Western Nevada that club members of the HOST club could not compete in the event for awards, but rather they worked the tournament. SO when you went to their club to shoot, THEY were working the event and you got to shoot.
> I remember my first novelty event. I got there an hour or more before start time, and had to hoof it quite some ways up the road...it was like wall-to-wall and end-to-end buses and vans lined up. Being an old hick from Wyoming, it was a culture shock.
> So...please do NOT say I have anything against California, because that was some of the best archery I've known in my entire career. The Fresno Safari, which used to be THE premier "novelty" event before Redding "took over" was a highlight of my career for the two that I attended! Don't know if it is still going on these days or not; haven't checked.
> 
> I will say one other thing. After I left California and moved to the Midwest, it was often said that archers East of the Mississippi were about 3 years behind the power curve because the "trends" always started in California and worked their way East. Heck, they even had a term for the "high wristed" bow grips/risers back then, commonly called the "California High Wrist", and it was substantially different from the "other" high wrist grips/riser grips out there at the time. Now daze you cannot hardly find a target bow with "high wrist" grips unless you purchase an after market grip for the bow in question.
> In fact, when I arrived in Ohio after leaving California, it was almost two years AFTER that a compound/release aid could be shot on a 900 round or in the State Target Shoot in Ohio! That was a bit of a shock, but since I was a pretty decent fingers/recurved shooter that only reluctantly went to release compound, I was lovin' every minute of shooting fingers/recurve on the 900 rounds we had, and we had several of them in the summer time.


Just FYI, It is still accepted practice that club members do not shoot their own shoot. And yes, Fresno is still an active club, but since they basically stopped the Safari as you knew it, Fresno is just another local shoot, garnering 4-5 hundred shooters as opposed to the 1000+ in its heyday. I think the BH and BB classes were and are a lot more popular in certain states, California-Virginia- Texas-Oregon- and washington because there are old timers there that refuse to let those traditions die. We are generally referred to as dinasaurs------- ,omg,-------- I just realized what happened to all the dinosaurs.:smile:


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## field14

Well, thank you for jostling my curiosity! The Fresno Safari is STILL a go! OMG! After all these years? It might not draw the big guns like it used to...but that still was among the most fun novelty shoots I attended, oh, so very long ago. The 2014 Safari will be the 58th year for the event!! Holy smokes!

http://www.weekendbowhunter.com/2010/04/fresno-safari/ 

2013 results...and sadly, no way is the BB or BH close to even 5% of those participating in this premier "ANIMAL/3-D type" of event...You can do the counting. I think in adult: 2 BB and 4BH and in seniors: ONE BB and 2 BH....LOTS of them, huh? Oh, really? 2BB Females?

http://fresnofieldarchers.homestead.com/Safari-Scores-2013.html 

I shot with Louis Travis from Indiana for many events on local, state, and especially Sectional level. He has always been a barebow shooter, and while his prowess has diminished, I see Louis Travis attending tournaments in spite of his age! I also shot with another Barebow Great, Bill Rucker, initially from Ohio. He did take up Compound/release, however back in around 1975 or so and was immediately at the top of the Freestyle Division!
Out in the GL Section and Midwest Section, there just isn't the support for BB or BH classes; they are almost dead, in fact. No interest at all; it is, especially for new shooters, all about release and compounds and heavy poundage and FAST bows. They "feel the need...the need for SPEED." hahahahaha. That, and instant gratification of hitting the target with as little practice as possible.
Sorry to be that blunt, but that is just the way it is. People are NOT willing to put in the time to work on BB or BH, plain and simple. Even FS Limited is down to but a handful at even the bigger events and worse at a local level.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Well, thank you for jostling my curiosity! The Fresno Safari is STILL a go! OMG! After all these years? It might not draw the big guns like it used to...but that still was among the most fun novelty shoots I attended, oh, so very long ago. The 2014 Safari will be the 58th year for the event!! Holy smokes!
> 
> http://www.weekendbowhunter.com/2010/04/fresno-safari/
> 
> 2013 results...and no way is the BB or BH close to even 5% of those participating in this premier "ANIMAL/3-D type" of event...You can do the counting. I think in adult: 2 BB and 4BH and in seniors: ONE BB and 2 BH....LOTS of them, huh? Oh, really? 2BB Females?
> 
> http://fresnofieldarchers.homestead.com/Safari-Scores-2013.html
> 
> Fresno is still in CALIFORNIA, isn't it?
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


The very tip of southern California. Below that is a vast wasteland.:teeth:


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Well, thank you for jostling my curiosity! The Fresno Safari is STILL a go! OMG! After all these years? It might not draw the big guns like it used to...but that still was among the most fun novelty shoots I attended, oh, so very long ago. The 2014 Safari will be the 58th year for the event!! Holy smokes!
> 
> http://www.weekendbowhunter.com/2010/04/fresno-safari/
> 
> 2013 results...and no way is the BB or BH close to even 5% of those participating in this premier "ANIMAL/3-D type" of event...You can do the counting. I think in adult: 2 BB and 4BH and in seniors: ONE BB and 2 BH....LOTS of them, huh? Oh, really? 2BB Females?
> 
> http://fresnofieldarchers.homestead.com/Safari-Scores-2013.html
> 
> Fresno is still in CALIFORNIA, isn't it?
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom, it is pretty obvious that the only info you have about the nonsight classes is provided to you on the Nfaa results list. As a nonsight archer, i'm probably privy to a little more information than you are as to why the numbers were down. We had people out of the country, people choosing to attend other events within 2 weeks of Darrington, people who will attend if the tournament is more centrally located, etc. I don't pretend to say that we will have the 3 flights of people we had back in the eighties but barebow/bowhunter combined class is still one of the four Nfaa classes I would retain.


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## field14

itbeso said:


> Tom, it is pretty obvious that the only info you have about the nonsight classes is provided to you on the Nfaa results list. As a nonsight archer, i'm probably privy to a little more information than you are as to why the numbers were down. We had people out of the country, people choosing to attend other events within 2 weeks of Darrington, people who will attend if the tournament is more centrally located, etc. I don't pretend to say that we will have the 3 flights of people we had back in the eighties but barebow/bowhunter combined class is still one of the four Nfaa classes I would retain.


Unfortunately, as I said earlier as far as the NFAA is concerned, they'll look at the NFAA Sanctioned events for INDOOR, Outdoor, MAYBE Redding, Vegas (WAF, but still using NFAA rules), and the Yankton Classic to make their decisions on ridding or combining classes. BB and BH combined into one is likely to "float" but keeping them both? I don't think so.

Fresno is North of Bakersfield and South of Merced, if I recall correctly. I did my KC-135 flight upgrade training at Castle AFB (Merced), and "migrated" down to Fresno from there to attend the last Fresno Safari that I was able to attend. So I don't know if you meant you are located in the Southern tip of California or what?
We used to use Hanford, Corcoron, Tulare, and Visalia as "Prime" RADAR locators for getting fixes while I went through navigator training up in Sacremento, and again for quick positioning "fixes" while flying down the length of the state. THen there is that damned dangerous RED LIGHT up near Turlock where if it is foggy (which it always is in the spring), you don't see the tail lights or red light until you are upon it! FULL STOP red light on a major freeway? Nuts! The last time I was out there was around 1998, and sure enough that stop light was still there. But, I knew about it and when I started slowing down, the people with me asked me what I was doing? I told them there was a red light coming up on the interstate and I was preparing for a sudden slow down or stop. Sure enough, people were jamming on the brakes!


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> I just posted a link to the Fresno Safari....and the BH and BB participants is certainly low.


Again, Fresno is the weekend before Redding, and most choose to take their vacation time on Redding. I haven't shot Fresno since around 2000.


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## reylamb

Does the IBO even have a non-sight compound class? 

I know the ASA doesn't.....


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## grantmac

I'm a finger shooter (recurve) and there is definitely a lot of interest in single-string archery among new archers, especially among JOAD (which includes adults). There is also a large interest in recurve barebow archery which doesn't currently have a class with the NFAA (but should take over from Trad IMHO). There are quite a few JOAD FSR archers shooting in Washington NFAA events, even 3D had a regular crowd of them in the Youth division for State.
These are people who already compete and wish to increase their competition venues, lets go get them.

Compound finger classes will die with the generation that currently shoots them, no new blood.

-Grant


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Unfortunately, as I said earlier as far as the NFAA is concerned, they'll look at the NFAA Sanctioned events for INDOOR, Outdoor, MAYBE Redding, Vegas (WAF, but still using NFAA rules), and the Yankton Classic to make their decisions on ridding or combining classes. BB and BH combined into one is likely to "float" but keeping them both? I don't think so.
> 
> Fresno is North of Bakersfield and South of Merced, if I recall correctly. I did my KC-135 flight upgrade training at Castle AFB (Merced), and "migrated" down to Fresno from there to attend the last Fresno Safari that I was able to attend. So I don't know if you meant you are located in the Southern tip of California or what?
> We used to use Hanford, Corcoron, Tulare, and Visalia as "Prime" RADAR locators for getting fixes while I went through navigator training up in Sacremento, and again for quick positioning "fixes" while flying down the length of the state. THen there is that damned dangerous RED LIGHT up near Turlock where if it is foggy (which it always is in the spring), you don't see the tail lights or red light until you are upon it! FULL STOP red light on a major freeway? Nuts! The last time I was out there was around 1998, and sure enough that stop light was still there. But, I knew about it and when I started slowing down, the people with me asked me what I was doing? I told them there was a red light coming up on the interstate and I was preparing for a sudden slow down or stop. Sure enough, people were jamming on the brakes!


The Fresno location I stated is a standing joke in Northern California as a lot of people won't claim The rest of southern california as being worthy of being called California. You have to live here to understand.


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## field14

itbeso said:


> The Fresno location I stated is a standing joke in Northern California as a lot of people won't claim The rest of southern california as being worthy of being called California. You have to live here to understand.


Well, I do recall that once you get near Bakersfield, it is pretty much a "desert", haha. Didn't think much of Bakersfield when I went through there several times.


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## 2413gary

Tom you're killing me Buck Owens is rolling over in his grave right now


field14 said:


> Well, I do recall that once you get near Bakersfield, it is pretty much a "desert", haha. Didn't think much of Bakersfield when I went through there several times.


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## carlosii

2413gary said:


> Tom you're killing me Buck Owens is rolling over in his grave right now


and Dwight Yokum is cryin' in his beer.

(btw, Vince Gill and Paul Franklin have a new cd out with a bunch of Buck's good ones on it.)


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## VFX_Fenix

itbeso said:


> The Fresno location I stated is a standing joke in Northern California as a lot of people won't claim The rest of southern california as being worthy of being called California. You have to live here to understand.


The entire Central San Joaquin Valley is a "wasteland" that no one wants to claim. Come from SD or LA? Nor*Cal starts at the Grape Vine. Visiting from Sac or SF? So*Cal starts in Stockton. So somewhere between Stockton and basically Bakersfield is a vast, unclaimed area affectionately known as Central California and I grew up in and lived in Visalia for the majority of my life before the grand adventure of College took me elsewhere. 

For my bit in this I'll just comment on the turn-outs that I see at league nights and during the evenings here in Van Nuys, CA. 

The VAST majority of shooters will fall into one of two classes general. Freestyle Compound or Olympic Recurve. I can count on one hand how many shooters I've ever seen shoot without a sight who aren't shooting a pure Trad setup. I'm at this range 4 days a week. I've never seen a finger shooter with a compound besides myself and even I haven't shot that way since 2002. The numbers shift in favor or Freestyle Compound or Olympic Recurve depending on the evening, but everyone who is shooting in the league is shooting with a sight and stabs. 

They have a Trad night league also, but I never go to that, so I can't comment on what that looks like.

Personally, I come from a background in paintball and the tournament scene (lame, I know). What I can say about that is this. People who go to compete at those events are only limited by what the rules will allow in terms of equipment. I've seen teams riding the bleeding edge of legal and fail and I've seen teams that go in with what is referred to as "Stock Class" (pump guns, tube feeds, and 12g CO2 - basically the equivalent of a Traditional Bow) and do extremely well. 

There's nothing in the rules that says you cannot compete against more "advanced" classifications with "handicapped" equipment (Pump vs. Electro Semi) in Paintball. Some people thrive on that kind of challenge. Sooooo why should it be that you can't compete with equipment that isn't right on the bleeding edge of legal in a given division?

I don't think anyone in NFAA would tell someone who arrived at a shoot with a BB/BH/TRAD rig and wanted to compete in a freestyle division to "Go Home, that equipment isn't legal". 

In Paintball, there are basically two tournament styles of play and they are "Semi" and "Stock". Semi has different rules based on what tournament platform they're playing, but anyone with a semi-auto capable marker is generally going to legal for play in 95% of tournaments which allow that mode of fire. Stock class is very restrictive in what equipment is legal but anyone who is setup for "Stock" can play in a "Semi" game format too.

From where I'm sitting I don't see why having the general groupings of Compound Freestyle, Recurve Freestyle and Trad would be such a bad thing in terms of a national body like NFAA.

It's what we do at our league night just because we generally don't have more than 12 shooters on a given night and the evening's winner is the best in whatever bow they're shooting because sometimes having more than 4 people shooting a compound just doesn't happen. Even at that, I'm the only one shooting what amounts to a hunting setup (short ATA bow and short stab with a 5-pin sight). Do I feel at a disadvantage? Maybe, though I also thought that I had achieved a wall in terms of my score and at the last league night I broke a personal best in league or in practice. So clearly my setup is not holding me back if I keep that score up. Do I feel like I have to work harder? Not really, but then I've never shot a real Freestyle Compound setup either for any length of time either.

So based on my observations. I don't see why there's all the hub-bub. This isn't a case of, "You're not technologically advanced enough to play ball here, go somewhere else." as much as, "These are the limits on your equipment selection. Take what you like, leave what you don't, then get out there and show 'em what ya got."

I agree that shooting in a division and only having 1 or 2 people to shoot against feels like a hollow victory in the times that I've done it. I'd much rather be tossed into the deep end and see where I stack up. Don't get me wrong, I love to win, but I also don't like getting a handout either. 

Just saying.


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## CurryBB

I think breaking into down into a few categories would be acceptable. You have those who choose to shoot compound, recurve or traditional. I believe that you cound break compound into sights or non-sights and release or fingers. Sights could include pins, movable and scopes. Recurve could be broken into sights or non-sights. Then you have your trad shooters. 

There is no reason to exclude people in competition beacause they choose to shoot one way over another. The divisions need to have broader specifications. As an example, you have BH - no sights, fingers, 12" or under stab, fixed anchor and fixed location on the string. BB- any length stab, movable anchor and string walking allowed. You are still shooting compounds with non-sight and fingers which are the most important specifications. Why can't there be one division that allows for any length of stab, movable or fixed anchor and string walking? This would effectively combine BB and BH. I don't like shooting in a class by myself. I prefer to compete with my peers. If I don't deserve a trophy then I don't want one by default.

We have several shooters just from our range that shoot compound fingers BB. We have attended several shoots where they don't accommodate BB and we have to adapt to BH just to compete. Why should I sacrifice my style? This is doubly so being a female in a male dominated division. But I'm more than happy to shoot with the men, just like Vegas BB.


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## CurryBB

Also for those of you debating whether or not we should continue BB, you should review who is the director of NFAA here in Ca and in which division he generally shoots. I'll give you a hint, to this day he is a legend, one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure to meet and shot Vegas BB 2013. He might have something to say about the tradition of shooting compound non-sight fingers. And yes, the division for women is dismal, but again, I don't mind shooting with the men. Hell, I have to live up to Kevin Busby and Jerry Preston.


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