# broadheads for recurve



## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

well i got my samick journey this evening and got it set up. obviously not tuned but ready to shoot. i do not know yet if i will be good enough to hunt with this bow before september gets here. but....its way to dark to be shooting and i've already watched/read anything and everything related to tuning/shooting a recurve. so of course just daydreaming of that big bruiser walking past me and me putting him down. i've been looking at lots of different broadheads when i get to that point. the three i've been considering the most are simmons land sharks with bleeders, magnus stingers with bleeders, or anything slick trick offers. i like the look of the simmons the best, but i like replaceable blades. magnus has their lifetime warranty which is very nice. i know tricks are very durable and anytime i get within screaming distance of one i usually get cut because they are so freaking sharp. all 3 i think are solid steel which is very important to me. i do not shoot aluminum broadheads period. 

the bow...samick journey 45lb limbs @ 28". my draw is probably 30-31" but still haven't measured. on compound its 30.5"

I want the most broadhead i can get and still get a pass through (if that's even realistic with my 45lb limbs)

Keagan...I know you really push the sharks, but in most of the posts you don't specify why. Obviously you've had good luck with them, but what is it that makes them so good? tune easy, accurate, deadly, etc. These are all important to me in particular something that is going to be forgiving for a newbie. I would also like to see some pics of animals holes and/or bloodtrails and all that fun stuff. i need something to dream about until september to keep myself motivated to learn this new art!


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## SaskRecurveKid (Jan 27, 2014)

I asked a similar quetion, pass through? yes, but stick to a 2 blade, was what I was told. But you can get away with a 3 blade and get pass throughs just not all the time. But your arrow weight is important to, just use the sharpest CoC broadhead you can find and you'll be fine.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Your bow is over 50#, and 30# at 28", drawn to 28", will pass though if tuned right with the right broadhead hitting the soft spot.

I like the Sharks because of the big holes they leave. For their width, they're pretty forgiving and tough. I used a more narrow STOS my first year and they penetrated great, but the blood trails weren't particularly profuse. The Sharks just make bigger holes. More blood on the ground and I saw three of the four I hit drop. The first was only a single lung hit, which was really impressive to me. Seems like lots of folks who have used them have had similiar results with their bigger models.

They're also well priced.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

this sounds great! do you use the model with the bleeder blades?


kegan said:


> Your bow is over 50#, and 30# at 28", drawn to 28", will pass though if tuned right with the right broadhead hitting the soft spot.
> 
> I like the Sharks because of the big holes they leave. For their width, they're pretty forgiving and tough. I used a more narrow STOS my first year and they penetrated great, but the blood trails weren't particularly profuse. The Sharks just make bigger holes. More blood on the ground and I saw three of the four I hit drop. The first was only a single lung hit, which was really impressive to me. Seems like lots of folks who have used them have had similiar results with their bigger models.
> 
> They're also well priced.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

No bleeders, haven't needed them. I shoot about the same weight as you and keep them as a two blade to help penetration. Haven't needed the bleeders personally.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

kegan said:


> No bleeders, haven't needed them. I shoot about the same weight as you and keep them as a two blade to help penetration. Haven't needed the bleeders personally.


okay then i may not worry about the bleeders then. i am used to my 1 1/2" cutting diameter 3 blades and i'm sure the blood trails won't be quite as good, but if they go down like that they won't need to leave a river leading to them!


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

oh yeah arrow weight duh! 550 grains....if i get to stay with the setup (doubt that will happen as no tuning has been done)


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Cart in front of the horse, again? Lots of time and work before hunting, unless of course you are a natural, not likely. Tomorrow might prove to be an interesting day. Probably no need to venture any further into the future just yet. If the arrows are at least close, it's time to work on the shooting. See what kind of group of three you can shoot and report your observations. Are the arrows all over the place or is there a definite grouping left or right, low or high?


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

Forest, most definitely! Like I said just having dreams lol. Hope to shoot tomorrow ...have a 3d shoot in the am. Then getting new strings installed on compound then tuning it. Then its getting put on back burner and stickbow is getting brought up to the front line lol


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's a picture of a Slick Trick I found inside a moose I shot. One blade was bent over. Don't think there's may redeeming qualities in that head. Not COC. Very small diameter. The short length impedes penetration. The blades are so thin and flimsy if there was room for your thumb you could bend them over.

On a moose, the head was probably shot with at least a 60 pound compound. He got 6 inches of penetration. 

I was shooting a 50 at 29 longbow and a 160 grain STOS. My shot at the moose was running (which impedes penetration) and I got about 20 inches of penetration. The reason I say about is because he fell over on my arrow and pushed it all the way through. Pretty sure he was dead when he fell over.

Bowmania


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

My favorite broadheads for the last few years have been Woodsmans, the original Wensel Woodsman and now the newer Woodsman Elite. The originals were pretty rough out of the package but cleaned up nice, the newer Woodsman Elites are really a superb head in my opinion. They are identical to the VPA three blade in the 175 grain and up weights, no surprise since they are made by VPA. From 150 grains and down there are some minor differences between the WE and VPA, but both are still a nice piece of machined tool steel.

The accuracy I've gotten with the Woodsmans has been superb, with both my recurves and the compound. They are a much larger head, and I'm pretty sure a much stronger head, but shoot as well as the Montecs and Slick Tricks that I used to use with the compound (only cut on contact heads with my recurve). I've only used the 150 and 175 grain out of the compound, the 150, 175, and 250 grainers with my recurves. The 150 is a vented head so has a slight hiss in flight. The others are not vented and are silent.

They are very easy to sharpen and hold an edge well. Unless I go to a 2-blade sometime I can't imagine a better head, and they come in weights from 125-300 grains which is very convenient.

That last part is key for you right now. If you _buy_ your broadheads at this point, how do you know what weight to choose? You can screw any old broadhead on your arrows and hope for the best, it might work...or it might not. You could say that strategy is _traditional_ since lots of people seem to assume stickbows don't need tuning and are a license to mediocrity. "Who cares about arrow flight and all that tuning stuff, I'm shooting this recurve to keep it simple"...:doh:

I think the better way to go about it is learn to shoot and after you get comfortable give bare shaft tuning a try. Once you have your arrows tuned (you will probably find tuning with point weight the most convenient) then buy your choice in broadheads and make sure to _get them at the same weight as the field points that your tuning showed to be correct_. Unless you tune by cutting your shafts (have a cut off saw?) and messing around with your shelf/rest the odds of you getting a good tune with a predetermined broadhead is slim at best. It's not impossible to tune to a particular head weight, but much easier to tune with point weight. If money is irrelevant it's not a big deal if you buy broadheads now only to find out they are the wrong weight down the road.

When I'm setting up a new bow I want to shoot the same shafts as all of my other bows, if possible. Swapping point weights allows me to get a good tune out of a 31" 340 with several recurves that range from 50#@29" to 59#@29". Point weight varies from 150-250 grains depending on the bow. 

Good luck, all of this stuff will seem easy and make more sense a few months into your journey...:thumbs_up


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Went back and read your post: the Magnus Stingers have an aluminum ferrule, as do the Slick Tricks. To date, I've not used the Landshark. It's smaller than the other Sharks, so it wouldn't leave the trail the big ones do. 

Just go shoot some rabbits and squirrels. Find what point weight shoots best and tune your bow. You're worried about penetration but are chasing four blades... don't really go together. 

I know here we have one more week of small game. Still stuff to chase!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

VPA 3 blades are the most durable head I've ever seen and they have a nice long cutting surface to aid penetration. I'm not very good at sharpening things so I like a 3 blade for the simplicity.

-Grant


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jwilson48 said:


> well i got my samick journey this evening and got it set up. obviously not tuned but ready to shoot. i do not know yet if i will be good enough to hunt with this bow before september gets here. but....its way to dark to be shooting and i've already watched/read anything and everything related to tuning/shooting a recurve. so of course just daydreaming of that big bruiser walking past me and me putting him down. i've been looking at lots of different broadheads when i get to that point. the three i've been considering the most are simmons land sharks with bleeders, magnus stingers with bleeders, or anything slick trick offers. i like the look of the simmons the best, but i like replaceable blades. magnus has their lifetime warranty which is very nice. i know tricks are very durable and anytime i get within screaming distance of one i usually get cut because they are so freaking sharp. all 3 i think are solid steel which is very important to me. i do not shoot aluminum broadheads period.
> 
> the bow...samick journey 45lb limbs @ 28". my draw is probably 30-31" but still haven't measured. on compound its 30.5"
> 
> ...


Cut on contact are in my opinion, the best for anyone. I prefer 3 blades, even though there are many strong two blades. Being sharp is the most necessary ingredient. I use Snuffers and have for the last decade or more.... more actually... :grin:


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

well guys i finally got to shoot it today! it was getting dark so didn't get much time in but i was happy to say the least. this was my first good group. i had one crazy flier out of 6. after this i continued to shoot well as long as i paid attention to every little detail. as soon as i quit thinking about my release, aiming point, backtension, etc it would open up. focus and it would shrink. obviously much more shooting is in order to find consistency






and not have to think about it but i'm heading in the right direction. btw this was only ten yards. i know that is very close but ya gotta start somewhere right?


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

also you have made me decide to stay away from the magnus and the tricks. i will look into the others mentioned as well as the sharks. like i said i will not be buying any for a long time but its still fun to have an idea...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I gotta give a shout out for my favorite 2 blade...

As too tuffness. ..a video is worth a long look. ..



http://centaurarchery.com/broadheadinfo.htm#broadhead-test-video

I've looked at a ton of heads and shot as many. .and if you want a large cut..strong and durable. ..well....watch the video and keep these in mind

Mac


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

i must say that's a pretty impressive video mac! just wish they had more weight options in case one of the two weights they offer won't work with my setup


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> I gotta give a shout out for my favorite 2 blade...
> 
> As too tuffness. ..a video is worth a long look. ..
> 
> ...


 Well the head might might be tough, but so too are MA3's and bodkins... probably so too the VAP's, certainly stronger than the Snuffers I shoot for sure.... but I have to say that he might be the greatest of engineers and bowmakers, but he's lacking mentally and quite fortunate we didn't get a shot of an ambulance carting him off to ER.... :grin:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Well the head might might be tough, but so too are MA3's and bodkins... probably so too the VAP's, certainly stronger than the Snuffers I shoot for sure.... but I have to say that he might be the greatest of engineers and bowmakers, but he's lacking mentally and quite fortunate we didn't get a shot of an ambulance carting him off to ER.... :grin:


Sure...ok..I guess a lot of us are lucky. .I've done the same type of testing. .even with a compound..like others have too..BTW..haven't ever seen a MA3 take that much abuse. .never shot a Bodkin at a 55 gal. drum. ..:wink:

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Sure...ok..I guess a lot of us are lucky. .I've done the same type of testing. .even with a compound..like others have too..BTW..haven't ever seen a MA3 take that much abuse. .never shot a Bodkin at a 55 gal. drum. ..:wink:
> 
> Mac


I've not deliberately shot MA's at rock or concrete but oddly many of my arrows found their way and with much more energy than he was producing at 188 feet.... and an MA3 is pretty hardy stuff... and they penetrate bone pretty well too.... but did I not see several arrows of his return to rooste... :laugh:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> I've not deliberately shot MA's at rock or concrete but oddly many of my arrows found their way and with much more energy than he was producing at 188 feet.... and an MA3 is pretty hardy stuff... and they penetrate bone pretty well too.... but did I not see several arrows of his return to rooste... :laugh:


Thats all well and good about the arrows. ..but the topic is broadheads..:tongue:

If I want a head that protects the shaft I will use a Exodus. .but for big nasty cuts..that fly good...in a 2 blade..these are my favorites. .

Mac


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Just to clarify something Easykeeper stated. Woodsmen's are not a larger BH than the bad ST and Montec. They are the same size or at least within a 1/16 or 1/8. What's important about the WW is they are a longer BH and I think this is what Easykeeper meant. This length gives it a mechanical advantage approaching that of an inclined plane. The I. plane has a 3 to 1 ratio, which Hill claimed and with good reason was the best length to width ratio. Unlike the ST which as a blade ratio of 1 to 1 and I can't think of anything with worse ratio for penetration.

Just a side comment. It appears from your comment with the picture of group and flyer you're shooting with out a sequence. Make one up, write it down, and shoot every arrow with it.

As stated above, this is a broadhead thread. Let me kind of paraphrase the best info I ever saw on broadheads. It's from www.bowmaker.net. Don't bother, it's gone as is the &^$% that wrote it. "For tuning purposes we should use the biggest/widest/nastiest broadheads possible. If you try to do your tuning with very narrow broadheads you will not be as tuned as well as you could be. Once you are tuned up with the wide broadheads you can change over to a narrower heads of the same weight with no problems." OH, wish I had a scanner, so I could give more.

Hope that makes sense to everyone. His suggestion is to use a 160 Snuffer. (My suggestion is if you tune with a Snuffer why not shoot a Snuffer??? And the answer to that questions is if you have to shoot an arrow through a moose a wide Snuffer might not be the best choice. And the answer to that statement is take off the Snuffer and put on a 160 STOS.) Tuning is pretty simple. Compare impact point of the Snuffer and a field point the same way you would with a bare shaft and a field point. To further clarify, the field point is the field point and the Snuffer is the bare shaft. If you don't know what to do with those results PM me. Caution - shoot the Snuffer first.

Something that was hinted at but probably should be expanded upon. The best head you can choose is a glue on head. Let's say you choose a screw on head like a WW Elite and you choose a 200 grain model - 3 for around 40 bucks. And through the tuning process you find you need a 250 grain head. What are you going to do with the 200 grain heads?

Now, let's use the glue on 160 Snuffer as a glue on example. You'll need an adaptor. Adaptors come in SN about 25 grains, LN 35-40 grs. Steel adaptors come in 75, 100, and 125 grains. On the low side that gives you a point weight of 195 and on the high 285 grains. Need some EFOC add woody weights. They come in 75 grains to 200, so you could shoot a head weight of 485!!!

I've used Woody Weights for years, but just yesterday attended a seminar by Monte Browning in which he advocated the use of them. PM me for my address to send the case of beer for the 40 bucks I just saved you.

Bowmania


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## broadheadnut (Mar 3, 2011)

im trying badger broadheads this year. awesome design and i have some buddies that have had kills with them and they do some serious damage. cant wait to try em out on a hog!


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Thumbs up to Bowmania for posting that story, it pretty much sums up my opinion on the last 20 years of hunting and seeing these "Short" heads take over the market. I've seen some crazy stuff with those. I think its a testament to the effectiveness of the bow and arrow that many of the BH designs will work.

I think the best new head in a long time is the DRT's, I shoot those and the Snuffers. The steel on those DRT's is much better than anything else I've seen.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bowmania said:


> Just to clarify something Easykeeper stated. Woodsmen's are not a larger BH than the bad ST and Montec. They are the same size or at least within a 1/16 or 1/8. What's important about the WW is they are a longer BH and I think this is what Easykeeper meant. This length gives it a mechanical advantage approaching that of an inclined plane. The I. plane has a 3 to 1 ratio, which Hill claimed and with good reason was the best length to width ratio. Unlike the ST which as a blade ratio of 1 to 1 and I can't think of anything with worse ratio for penetration.
> 
> Just a side comment. It appears from your comment with the picture of group and flyer you're shooting with out a sequence. Make one up, write it down, and shoot every arrow with it.
> 
> ...


While I found this to be a very informative treatise, I am questioning your statement of "if you have to shoot an arrow through a moose a wide Snuffer might not be the best choice." and I'd like you to defend that statement, because I disagree with it on its face, and disagree with it from just a practical perspective..

Mahalo,

:beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Thats all well and good about the arrows. ..but the topic is broadheads..:tongue:
> 
> If I want a head that protects the shaft I will use a Exodus. .but for big nasty cuts..that fly good...in a 2 blade..these are my favorites. .
> 
> Mac


For a two blade head they seem a tad overkill.... you know.... I mean whoever wants to have a head you never replace... :grin: Not doing the economy any good either.... :laugh:


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

As stated in a previous post, your draw weight is a little over 50# and with a 30"+ draw length, so the last anything you should worry about is penetration. Actually, I only draw about 27.5"@45-50# and with 350-420gr arrows I get complete pass-thru penetration on large PA Whitetails. It should also be noted that I've used heads like the Muzzy trocar 3 and 4 blade, as well as 3 Blade Thunderheads. It is nothing more than a myth that multi-blade modular heads aren't suitable for recurves and longbows......Only those who haven't tried it will advise against it. The Magnus Stinger/Buzzcuts and Slicktricks mentioned above are also outstanding heads that I have actually killed game with and will serve you well too. It's pretty tough to pick a bad broadhead these days.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Roger Savor Sr said:


> As stated in a previous post, your draw weight is a little over 50# and with a 30"+ draw length, so the last anything you should worry about is penetration. Actually, I only draw about 27.5"@45-50# and with 350-420gr arrows I get complete pass-thru penetration on large PA Whitetails. It should also be noted that I've used heads like the Muzzy trocar 3 and 4 blade, as well as 3 Blade Thunderheads. It is nothing more than a myth that multi-blade modular heads aren't suitable for recurves and longbows......Only those who haven't tried it will advise against it. The Magnus Stinger/Buzzcuts and Slicktricks mentioned above are also outstanding heads that I have actually killed game with and will serve you well too. It's pretty tough to pick a bad broadhead these days.



Thank you! :set1_applaud: Most of the marketing hype is a lot of noise about nothing.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

My personal favs are Centaur Big Game heads and Simmon's broadheads.

I luv 'em!

Ray :shade:


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

I'll vote for the Simmons also, they tune easy out of every bow ive shot them from, compounds included, and you can call the owner, and talk to him about them, hunting , or anything , great dude, awesome cs,


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## Leon Hinton (Jul 4, 2010)

I have shot over 100 deer with the Simmon's sharks they will out perform the others. I have shot them from longbows ranging in draw weight from 43#@28" to 56#@28". They penetrate as well as any I have shot. They fly great, are durable, stay sharpe, and leave the best blood trail I have seen. They fly better out of my Hummingbirds than field points do.LCH


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Rattus58, Please explain your practical perspective.

I think it's pretty easy to explain why I didn't shoot my moose with a 160 grain Snuffer. To start it's 1 1/2 inches wide and I'm shooting 50 pounds so penetration is a consideration. A WW has the same 3 blade configuration and is only 1 1/8 inches wide. So I would choose it over a Snuffer. But again Still worried about penetration I chose a 2 blade which Ashby claims penetrates better than a 3 blade.

So even if you believe that a three blade would out penetrate a 2 blade, you'd have to agree that something narrower than the very wide 160 Snuffer would out penetrate it. As long as both 3 blades are the same length. If we use a WW as an example, I think it's longer than a Snuffer. So by virtue of length it has a better mechanical advantage.

Bowmania


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Just checked a Snuffer and a Woodsmen, the blade lengths are exactly the same. So by virtue of the WW being narrower it has a much better MA.

Bowmania


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bowmania said:


> Rattus58, Please explain your practical perspective.
> 
> I think it's pretty easy to explain why I didn't shoot my moose with a 160 grain Snuffer. To start it's 1 1/2 inches wide and I'm shooting 50 pounds so penetration is a consideration. A WW has the same 3 blade configuration and is only 1 1/8 inches wide. So I would choose it over a Snuffer. But again Still worried about penetration I chose a 2 blade which Ashby claims penetrates better than a 3 blade.
> 
> ...


For one thing, I didn't make the claims.... You did... so lets keep the issues on perspective. Two... I have hunted with two blades, three blades and Bears with bleeders. What you said was that if you practice with snuffers or hunt with snuffers that you would switch to something else... and I question that for two reasons. 

First would be under what circumstance would that be actually beneficial? If you are comfortable with a head what possible benefits accrue to you in starting all over again? People talk about penetration with two blades versus multiple blades and in the case of Ashby, I believe that he proved his case for his study, but for American Game I don't believe that the same is requisite. You're shooting a 50 lb bow, legal for ALL game that I'm aware on the continent and further, has no qualifiers attached to it.

Blades with larger diameter certainly have more drag than a broad head with a lesser diameter, but usually these differences are offset by other factors such as higher weight and FOC which aids in penetration. The Wensels and the Snuffers are virtually identical in my opinion and I use the Snuffer because of the slightly larger cutting diameter but to pick a Wensel over a Snuffer because you're worried about penetration is a false argument, and you've shot them both I'm assuming an so you know this. Two blade for Penetration on American game??? I'm not qualified to say. Would I switch from a Snuffer to two blade, absolutely not.... Should you.... if you felt more confident with the change, then sure why not. 

You mention Mechanical Advantage, and that might be true in the package, but it certainly doesn't weigh as well in practice, again by virtue of other factors and 1 and 15/32" is about 1.3 times 1 1/8" diameter. So maybe a 30% difference. But since the Wensel is only 125 grains and the snuffer 160, you get the snuffer with 1.28 increase in weight... So I'm not an engineer but I'm not giving Wensels an edge here because I don't think you'll find that a wensel in an animal with a properly spined arrow in the first place for either will see zero difference in effect... and back to the original statement.... if you are shooting a snuffer everyday for deer, I see no practical difference on a moose. 

Again back to two blades. If you are more confident with a two blade for penetration than a 3 blade, you should use it. If you question the head you're using you've tainted your hunt, in my opinion and would probably miss opportunities because of doubt. I don't buy the argument that the head you use isn't adequate if its doing the job for you. Cut on contact heads, whether zwickey, snuffer, or wensel, cut on contact and pave the way for penetration. If you get either of them into an animal at the same spot, they will all do the same job if you spent a minute or two to put a file to the blade.

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bowmania said:


> View attachment 1883996
> 
> 
> Just checked a Snuffer and a Woodsmen, the blade lengths are exactly the same. So by virtue of the WW being narrower it has a much better MA.
> ...


Dang that's at big animal.... :grin: I had a moose saunter by our volvo in Alaska one time while me and the missuse were gawking at a midnight sun... and we thought for a second the sun had set.... :laugh:


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

My only issue with some of the longer "pointier" heads like the WW is the tips aren't as strong- less supported.

Now I did have the pleasure of witnessing a big 250# Ca boar get shot with a WW head on a 420gr arrow from a DAS recurve at 50# and that arrow never even slowed down going through that hog...dead in 50 yds.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> My only issue with some of the longer "pointier" heads like the WW is the tips aren't as strong- less supported.
> 
> Now I did have the pleasure of witnessing a big 250# Ca boar get shot with a WW head on a 420gr arrow from a DAS recurve at 50# and that arrow never even slowed down going through that hog...dead in 50 yds.


 I've not heard of the tips failing on a Snuffer or Wensel Type head, but the blade themselves can fail according to the son of the designer of the Snuffer. Not having suffered any failures with the Snuffers myself I can't offer insight, but any vented blade user should be open to the potential I'd be thinking. Snuffers and wensels are fairly well constructed in my opinion and it'd have to be something like a VAP, MA3, or Bodkin to be stronger in my opinion.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

The original "Wensel Woodsman" was made with a needle point. It was considered a weak spot as it could easily bend on hitting bone. It was standard practice to knock off the needle tip before use, making it a more abrupt pyramidal shape.

The newer Woodsman Elite and VPAs come without the needle point.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Easykeeper said:


> The original "Wensel Woodsman" was made with a needle point. It was considered a weak spot as it could easily bend on hitting bone. It was standard practice to knock off the needle tip before use, making it a more abrupt pyramidal shape.
> 
> The newer Woodsman Elite and VPAs come without the needle point.


And there in lies the explanation... Thank you! New information for me anyways... :grin:


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Rattus58, some good points, but you missed something when I mentioned bowmaker.net. His suggestion is to tune with the 160 Snuffter and then you can take off the Snuffer and put on a narrower head of equal weight and you'll still be tuned. I can assure you that when I took off the Snuffer and put on the 160 grain STOS I checked to see 1. if they had the same impact point and 2. if they were still tuned. The results on 1 were perfect as stated in bowmaker. And on 2 I had shot the Snuffer and STOS through paper at 12 feet and 20 yards, which resulted as bowmaker suggested bullet holes. I don't believe anyone would take a moose hunt without testing their broadheads to the max. In my opinion that bowmaker is right on. So much so that when I got back from the moose hunt I put the Snuffer back on for whitetails.

I neglected to mention that my heads (the Snuffer and the STOS) both weigh 285 (160 and 125 grain adaptor) and if I was comparing them to the WW the WW would weigh 285 (125 grain Woody Weight, 35 grain adaptor and the 125 grain WW). Now we're comparing apples to apples. Not a 125 grain non tuned head to 160 grain tuned head. Pretty sure you'd agree that due to the widths of the heads WW is going out penetrate the Snuffer. It has the MA

Back to "Again back to two blades. If you are more confident with a two blade for penetration than a 3 blade, you should use it." I did have more confidence with the 2 blade (for moose) because I feel it will always out penetrate a 3 with all things being equal.

And in switching back to the Snuffer I felt confident with it. Enough to kill this whitetail. In 2011 I killed four species. Two mentioned in this thread. For the stories and some tuning info see the last 4 issues of Trad World Magazine.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

I did miss a major point here. Whitetails are not a penetration issue. Look at the poor heads that are out there that work. Whitetails are a very tough animals and can go along way. A 1 1/2 hole goes along way to shortening the blood trail. 

On the other had moose are not tough, but from side to side they are probably 4 feet wide. So, with them penetration is a major issue as that Slick Trick will attest to.

Bowmania


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Easykeeper said:


> The original "Wensel Woodsman" was made with a needle point. It was considered a weak spot as it could easily bend on hitting bone. It was standard practice to knock off the needle tip before use, making it a more abrupt pyramidal shape.


The blades of the original Woodsmans were pretty fragile too. Also, the factory edges were rarely straight and the tempering was inconsistent. I hunted with them for a couple years after they came out. Even though I killed a lot of deer with them, I got tired of throwing bent up used ones in my box of trashed broadheads. I switched to Ace Standards. Over the past 11 seasons I have yet to damage one, and I've put them through everything I've hunted, from small game to whitetails, elk, and moose.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

J. Wesbrock said:


> The blades of the original Woodsmans were pretty fragile too. Also, the factory edges were rarely straight and the tempering was inconsistent. I hunted with them for a couple years after they came out. Even though I killed a lot of deer with them, I got tired of throwing bent up used ones in my box of trashed broadheads. I switched to Ace Standards. Over the past 11 seasons I have yet to damage one, and I've put them through everything I've hunted, from small game to whitetails, elk, and moose.


You are right about all of that. The originals required quite a bit of time on a big file to true the edges. I remember throwing a couple in the trash in disgust they were so far out of true. This is one case where the "new and improved" version (Woodsman Elite or VPA) is a significantly improved head.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bowmania said:


> View attachment 1884843
> Hi Rattus58, some good points, but you missed something when I mentioned bowmaker.net. His suggestion is to tune with the 160 Snuffter and then you can take off the Snuffer and put on a narrower head of equal weight and you'll still be tuned. I can assure you that when I took off the Snuffer and put on the 160 grain STOS I checked to see 1. if they had the same impact point and 2. if they were still tuned. The results on 1 were perfect as stated in bowmaker. And on 2 I had shot the Snuffer and STOS through paper at 12 feet and 20 yards, which resulted as bowmaker suggested bullet holes. I don't believe anyone would take a moose hunt without testing their broadheads to the max. In my opinion that bowmaker is right on. So much so that when I got back from the moose hunt I put the Snuffer back on for whitetails.
> 
> I neglected to mention that my heads (the Snuffer and the STOS) both weigh 285 (160 and 125 grain adaptor) and if I was comparing them to the WW the WW would weigh 285 (125 grain Woody Weight, 35 grain adaptor and the 125 grain WW). Now we're comparing apples to apples. Not a 125 grain non tuned head to 160 grain tuned head. Pretty sure you'd agree that due to the widths of the heads WW is going out penetrate the Snuffer. It has the MA
> ...


:grin: You know yer talking to a pretty simple archer here right.... :laugh: "125 grain Woody Weight, 35 grain adaptor and the 125 grain WW)" I usually can't plan that far a head so it's for me... wood, weigh, spine, cut the nock, taper, spine, weigh, .... shoot.... to add... well ... 

Back to you point... nope.... don't disagree with the potential penetration differences at all... but then again... I'm a simple fella... I trust my file to take care of penetration differences that might accrue to the wensel head in the drag department. I think that you made the most germane confession... that you trusted your head... :grin: They've been killing game with stone so sometimes I wonder if maybe just for grins ... and Ive seen coke bottle broadheads..... eek.... but you know... if you are confident, you'll take a shot you might not if you had doubts... and hunting is a combination of skill, confidence, chance, and intuition... in my opinion... and like me.. you do things when you are thinking about them (an age thing) and when hunting you release when "it looks right"... :grin:

Very very nice deer... seems to be part of the ruling class.... :laugh:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Bowmania said:


> I did miss a major point here. Whitetails are not a penetration issue. Look at the poor heads that are out there that work. Whitetails are a very tough animals and can go along way. A 1 1/2 hole goes along way to shortening the blood trail.
> 
> On the other had moose are not tough, but from side to side they are probably 4 feet wide. So, with them penetration is a major issue as that Slick Trick will attest to.


Good point on Whitetails vs moose. A whitetail escapes its attacker, the flight response isn't as ingrained in moose.

The fact that almost anything works on thin skinned deer sort of lulls many into thinking this translates into success on much larger game such as elk- " awe contrary"....as the Frenchies say....or something like that- grin


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Bowmania said:


> View attachment 1884843
> Hi Rattus58, some good points, but you missed something when I mentioned bowmaker.net. His suggestion is to tune with the 160 Snuffter and then you can take off the Snuffer and put on a narrower head of equal weight and you'll still be tuned. I can assure you that when I took off the Snuffer and put on the 160 grain STOS I checked to see 1. if they had the same impact point and 2. if they were still tuned. The results on 1 were perfect as stated in bowmaker. And on 2 I had shot the Snuffer and STOS through paper at 12 feet and 20 yards, which resulted as bowmaker suggested bullet holes. I don't believe anyone would take a moose hunt without testing their broadheads to the max. In my opinion that bowmaker is right on. So much so that when I got back from the moose hunt I put the Snuffer back on for whitetails.
> 
> I neglected to mention that my heads (the Snuffer and the STOS) both weigh 285 (160 and 125 grain adaptor) and if I was comparing them to the WW the WW would weigh 285 (125 grain Woody Weight, 35 grain adaptor and the 125 grain WW). Now we're comparing apples to apples. Not a 125 grain non tuned head to 160 grain tuned head. Pretty sure you'd agree that due to the widths of the heads WW is going out penetrate the Snuffer. It has the MA
> ...


Great looking buck!


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

For the life of me I'm never going to figure out why guys have so many issues killing deer with arrows and broadheads. I talk to guys building 850 gr arrows and $100/3pk designer heads to do nothing more than kill a Whitetail. While I've tried probably ever elaborate tuning method under the sun, too, I always found may way back to bareshafting, and haven't found a head that won't fly perfect when I'm done tuning, which generally takes 15 mins.......Killed this year's deer with an MA-3(125gr) for a total arrow weight of 375gr and got a complete passthrough, as per usual. It's the need some have to make it difficult is what perplexes me. Oh well.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Roger Savor Sr said:


> For the life of me I'm never going to figure out why guys have so many issues killing deer with arrows and broadheads. I talk to guys building 850 gr arrows and $100/3pk designer heads to do nothing more than kill a Whitetail. While I've tried probably ever elaborate tuning method under the sun, too, I always found may way back to bareshafting, and haven't found a head that won't fly perfect when I'm done tuning, which generally takes 15 mins.......Killed this year's deer with an MA-3(125gr) for a total arrow weight of 375gr and got a complete passthrough, as per usual. It's the need some have to make it difficult is what perplexes me. Oh well.


Yeah but MA3's are some of the best flying heads on crooked arrows bar none... in my opinion... I love them... even though I'm a Snuffers aficionado I love the MA3.


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

".....crooked arrows"......Yuk, who shoots those?


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

no one mentioned steelforce broadheads. Nick sharpens the wensel woodsmans. Ive been in the shop. Anyone who raves about wensel woodsmans sharpness can thank steelforce broadheads. I got a 436 grain fmj with a 150 grain steelforce single bevel to poke through both sides of a doe at 20 yrads this winter. that was with a thirty five pound samick sage at 25 inches. all about placement and sharpness. she bled like a stuck pig too.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Roger Savor Sr said:


> ".....crooked arrows"......Yuk, who shoots those?


welcome to my world.... of wood dowels and other oddities... :grin:


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

BowTechForever said:


> no one mentioned steelforce broadheads. Nick sharpens the wensel woodsmans. Ive been in the shop. Anyone who raves about wensel woodsmans sharpness can thank steelforce broadheads. I got a 436 grain fmj with a 150 grain steelforce single bevel to poke through both sides of a doe at 20 yrads this winter. that was with a thirty five pound samick sage at 25 inches. all about placement and sharpness. she bled like a stuck pig too.
> View attachment 1885379


that is one pretty bloodtrail! obviously snow amplifies it greatly but i don't think anyone would have trouble tracking that.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Just exactly what kind of bow is that??? Found the book by the way... Thanks again!

View attachment 1885642


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Rattus, it's a Voodoo Kustom by Steve Hartley. I love that guy, the got me out of the "new custom bow buying every year" affliction. Around the time I got his bow I had two others ordered. The riser is made out of elk antler. On mine Steve put 2 mt lion claws, 2 elk ivorys, and a bear claw. Truly a work of art (my back up is a Morrison Shawnee so it shoots.). 

Steve has just gone through some medical problems and looks like he'll be up and running (taking orders) in the near future. Thanks to the prayers on these sites - it was a rough time for him and his family. 

Todd


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Opppps. I was going to mention that for those of you who don't read TBM I shot that moose running at full tilt on a drive. I do practice running shots (great fun with a fishing rod and gallon plastic milk carton with sand for weight, you just don't miss after a while). Since the bow is 50 lbs I was worried about penetration and a running shot hinders penetration. It all happened so fast that a minute after it happened I was wondering if I was dreaming that it happened.

Anyway, the shot was about 3 inches from the shoulder and the guide said I missed the spot because it should have been 3 inches lower for a 'perfect' shot. I had about a 4 foot window to get the shot off and made sure I was at full draw when he entered the window and shot at the other side of the window - quartering away. Got about 20 inches of penetration. He made it about 100 yards and fell over on the arrow and pushed it all the way through. You see the exit side. That was photoshoped for TBM. 

Bowmania


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bowmania said:


> Opppps. I was going to mention that for those of you who don't read TBM I shot that moose running at full tilt on a drive. I do practice running shots (great fun with a fishing rod and gallon plastic milk carton with sand for weight, you just don't miss after a while). Since the bow is 50 lbs I was worried about penetration and a running shot hinders penetration. It all happened so fast that a minute after it happened I was wondering if I was dreaming that it happened.
> 
> Anyway, the shot was about 3 inches from the shoulder and the guide said I missed the spot because it should have been 3 inches lower for a 'perfect' shot. I had about a 4 foot window to get the shot off and made sure I was at full draw when he entered the window and shot at the other side of the window - quartering away. Got about 20 inches of penetration. He made it about 100 yards and fell over on the arrow and pushed it all the way through. You see the exit side. That was photoshoped for TBM.
> 
> Bowmania


Ahhhhh interesting..... interesting.... you bring back penetration again..... just couldn't leave it sleep could you.... :laugh: 20" of penetration and the dang thing fell over dead. Hmmmmmm how can that be, Messier.... how can that be.... :grin: 

Great shot is all I can say and validates the idea that confidence in your equipment makes the shot while others agonize over detail.... :grin:

When you have an opportunity would you do a more close up of your bow?

Aloha,

Tom

Much Aloha...


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## 337088 (Sep 9, 2013)

BowTechForever said:


> no one mentioned steelforce broadheads. Nick sharpens the wensel woodsmans. Ive been in the shop. Anyone who raves about wensel woodsmans sharpness can thank steelforce broadheads. I got a 436 grain fmj with a 150 grain steelforce single bevel to poke through both sides of a doe at 20 yrads this winter. that was with a thirty five pound samick sage at 25 inches. all about placement and sharpness. she bled like a stuck pig too.
> View attachment 1885379


Where's the blood? He heheh 
Steelforce head you said?


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