# Sticky  So you want to get into archery?



## Viper1

Guys -

A few times a week, the same exact question is asked. Usually goes something like this: "I'm thinking about getting into archery", or "I shot bows and arrows years ago and want to get back into it" or "I've been shooting a compound and want to try a recurve, what's a good bow to start with that won't break the bank". A lot of you may have asked that question yourselves. 

Well, it's not as good a question as it seems. 

First question might, or should be: do you have an end game (reason to getting into it), or just want to try it out and see where it goes. Both are viable answers, and both may, and usually will change over time. 

Suggestions:

1. Don't "buy" anything. If at all possible go to a range or club and take a lesson. Most intro lessons are rudimentary by definition, but will give you an idea what's going on and may whet your appetite - OR totally turn you off. Hey, it happens.

2. Use the range's or clubs equipment. While it may not be the best or even closely matched to anything, it will give you an idea about realistic bow lengths and weight. (As opposed to the guy who ultimately wants to kill an elephant and therefore has to start off with a 70# bow...)

Happily, that should directly answer the next question, which bow to buy. 

3. The fact is that (almost) any current production entry level bow will out shoot you (and me) for as long as we're alive. The factors you have to consider are length and draw weight. Beyond that, the bow has to appeal to you on some gut level. If it doesn't, you won't stick with it. 

Bow length is based to some degree on purpose and to a lesser degree on draw length. In general, longer bows will be more stable in the hand and easier to shoot well, but may be cumbersome in tight hunting environments. While draw length factors in, as long as you don't go to extremes, it's not a real a concern with modern recurve bows. Examples of extremes would be a guy with a 32" draw (measured, not calculated) might not be too happy with a 48" bow and a guy with a 24" draw will rarely get full use from limbs on a 70" bow. Here, the middle ground may be best.

4. If you've done your due diligence and have gotten to a range, taken a lesson, you should have a pretty good idea of what will work for you. The range, if it has some kind of Pro-shop, will recommend something that they stock. That's actually a good starting point. 

Hint: no matter how badly you've been bitten by the archery bug, remember 4 things: 

1. Go generic, usually not a problem with entry level equipment; your need or tastes will change over time. 
2. Don't spend more than you have to. Seems obvious, but see above about your tastes.
3. Go lighter than you "think" you can handle. Drawing a bow a few times has no bearing on being able to learn to shoot, when 50, 60 or more arrows will be required during a session.
4. Go longer than you think is "appropriate". Even if you think you'll be hunting Bambi from a tree stand or ground blind, you really do have to learn to shoot first and the fewer obstacles, the better.

OK, there really aren't any ranges near you. First off, I don't buy it. Sure you might have to drive a hour or more to get to one, but it will be time well spent. If there really aren't any, read, watch and come to some conclusions on what you want.

Then ...

Ask specific question here and on other archer forums. "What bow should I buy" will only get responses about what other folks like, which may or may not apply to you. 

Do your research, pick out a few bows that float yer boat, and get opinions on those.

Arrows are another discussion, and for beginners, almost any arrow, as long as it's long enough to be safe (won't be pulled off the rest by a long draw shooter) is probably fine. Don't even think about "tuning" your rig, I can guarantee you, you are shooting well enough to make that happen. 

Hope that helped. 

and BTW, I'm not suggesting you don't ask questions, only that the better (more specific) the question, the better the answers.

Viper1 out.


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## Brian N

I would like to add a little:
1 - Be patient. You will not shoot like the compound archer next to you after just 3 sessions
2 - Don't worry about hitting the yellow center ring or bullseye every shot
3 - Keep it in perspective - its a fun pastime/hobby. 
4 - Read, talk to others, watch videos, take a lesson or a few


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## SBK

Thank you for the advice and taking the time to write them down.

I found out the hard way that a 45# long bow was not a good choice for beginners like me. Beginners would get tired quickly with a 45#. So I went back to my 20-25# to practice my form and can shoot 4 hours without being tired.


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## ember

Viper - you just answered about 20 active posts.


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## SBK

To moderators:

Could we have threads with this kind of pieces of advice be "Sticky" so they won't get buried by many newer posts ?


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## 1/2 Bubble Off

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> A few times a week, the same exact question is asked. Usually goes something like this: "I'm thinking about getting into archery", or "I shot bows and arrows years ago and want to get back into it" or "I've been shooting a compound and want to try a recurve, what's a good bow to start with that won't break the bank". A lot of you may have asked that question yourselves.
> 
> Well, it's not as good a question as it seems.
> 
> First question might, or should be: do you have an end game (reason to getting into it), or just want to try it out and see where it goes. Both are viable answers, and both may, and usually will change over time.
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> 1. Don't "buy" anything. If at all possible go to a range or club and take a lesson. Most intro lessons are rudimentary by definition, but will give you an idea what's going on and may whet your appetite - OR totally turn you off. Hey, it happens.
> 
> 2. Use the range's or clubs equipment. While it may not be the best or even closely matched to anything, it will give you an idea about realistic bow lengths and weight. (As opposed to the guy who ultimately wants to kill an elephant and therefore has to start off with a 70# bow...)
> 
> Happily, that should directly answer the next question, which bow to buy.
> 
> 3. The fact is that (almost) any current production entry level bow will out shoot you (and me) for as long as we're alive. The factors you have to consider are length and draw weight. Beyond that, the bow has to appeal to you on some gut level. If it doesn't, you won't stick with it.
> 
> Bow length is based to some degree on purpose and to a lesser degree on draw length. In general, longer bows will be more stable in the hand and easier to shoot well, but may be cumbersome in tight hunting environments. While draw length factors in, as long as you don't go to extremes, it's not a real a concern with modern recurve bows. Examples of extremes would be a guy with a 32" draw (measured, not calculated) might not be too happy with a 48" bow and a guy with a 24" draw will rarely get full use from limbs on a 70" bow. Here, the middle ground may be best.
> 
> 4. If you've done your due diligence and have gotten to a range, taken a lesson, you should have a pretty good idea of what will work for you. The range, if it has some kind of Pro-shop, will recommend something that they stock. That's actually a good starting point.
> 
> Hint: no matter how badly you've been bitten by the archery bug, remember 4 things:
> 
> 1. Go generic, usually not a problem with entry level equipment; your need or tastes will change over time.
> 2. Don't spend more than you have to. Seems obvious, but see above about your tastes.
> 3. Go lighter than you "think" you can handle. Drawing a bow a few times has no bearing on being able to learn to shoot, when 50, 60 or more arrows will be required during a session.
> 4. Go longer than you think is "appropriate". Even if you think you'll be hunting Bambi from a tree stand or ground blind, you really do have to learn to shoot first and the fewer obstacles, the better.
> 
> OK, there really aren't any ranges near you. First off, I don't buy it. Sure you might have to drive a hour or more to get to one, but it will be time well spent. If there really aren't any, read, watch and come to some conclusions on what you want.
> 
> Then ...
> 
> Ask specific question here and on other archer forums. "What bow should I buy" will only get responses about what other folks like, which may or may not apply to you.
> 
> Do your research, pick out a few bows that float yer boat, and get opinions on those.
> 
> Arrows are another discussion, and for beginners, almost any arrow, as long as it's long enough to be safe (won't be pulled off the rest by a long draw shooter) is probably fine. Don't even think about "tuning" your rig, I can guarantee you, you are shooting well enough to make that happen.
> 
> Hope that helped.
> 
> and BTW, I'm not suggesting you don't ask questions, only that the better (more specific) the question, the better the answers.
> 
> Viper1 out.





Brian N said:


> I would like to add a little:
> 1 -* Be patient. You will not shoot like the compound archer next to you after just 3 sessions*
> 2 - Don't worry about hitting the yellow center ring or bullseye every shot
> 3 - Keep it in perspective - its a fun pastime/hobby.
> 4 - Read, talk to others, watch videos, take a lesson or a few


I completely agree with both of these posts!!!! Especially the point that I bolded above....
Most folks get into archery because there is someone that they know who is already into it. They take advice from their friend (who may be a great source of information or an idiot). I've seen quite a few "new" guys at the club who say "I bought this bow because my friend said it's the best and anything else is a waste of time and money". While I agree with the term "Buy once, cry once." But, even if you do eventually end up with one, that doesn't mean your very first bow should be a 70# Full Throttle!

When getting started, it's about managing expectations!!!


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## JRT51

I may get banned for speaking my mind but that's a pretty condescending position and thread starter for a public forum where people should feel free to come looking for advice from the "experts". I agree that the research involed in answering the basic questions about any subject are a major part of the education however, everyone today looks to their favorite search engine to make them an expert. This sounds like you are discouraging posts beneath the level of expertise required to be a participant here.


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## Moebow

JRT51 NOT sure where you see that... "condescending!" And the rest, "discouraging posts?" Viper really nailed the topic, IMO. 
Anyone that has spent much time actually instructing folks recognizes the absolute truth and good advice given. YES!! Ask questions, IF you don't know ASK!!! But too, if you ask questions, you MAY want to listen to the answers. I see many that want to buy just one bow for hunting so it has to be XX#. I shoot a million pound compound so think I can shoot a 60# recurve. We see this all the time then when the advice is 25 or 30# they are insulted and move on or argue the point. It's just frustrating to try to answer questions with good advice based on years of teaching to have that effort disregarded. Many of use are REALLY here to help lead a person to SUCCESS not failure.

GREAT POST VIPER!!!!!!

Arne


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## Boomer2094

Apparently, some people's feelings can be easily hurt by reading into something that isn't there...

All Viper was saying can be summed up in three words: "Do Your Homework".

Everything Viper stated in his post is true. I don't see anything "condescending" about his post at all. in fact, This was the end of his post:



> I'm not suggesting you don't ask questions, only that the better (more specific) the question, the better the answers.


I agree with ABK about make what Viper posted here into the sticky in the New User's Forum as well as in the General Archery Information forum. This advice is very helpful to all new archers.


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## pipcount

I don't find the posts by Viper or others above to be condescending. Rather insightful and experienced.

One theme in particular I had not really thought about the problem clearly until I considered Viper's comments earlier today... but folks really aught to try a fair amount prior to buying, and with some work they should be able to find someone in their area to help. My friends shoot ~7 different bows over several weeks when I help them start out, then we shoot the ones they recall liking again, then pick something at the end similar to or identical to what they enjoyed most. For most folks that means finding an instructor, a range, and/or a pro shop.

I especially liked the "Arrows are another discussion, and for beginners, almost any arrow, as long as it's long enough to be safe (won't be pulled off the rest by a long draw shooter) is probably fine."

In sum, I find the posts highly helpful and insightful to the problem of "what is the role of the forum for a beginner, how can we help put out more consistent and useful information that is simple enough for a beginner?" And the top suggestion has to be- find someone that knows enough not to tell you bad ideas. Viper is one of those fellows. And he is kind enough to share here.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off

JRT51 said:


> I may get banned for speaking my mind but that's a pretty condescending position and thread starter for a public forum where people should feel free to come looking for advice from the "experts". I agree that the research involed in answering the basic questions about any subject are a major part of the education however, everyone today looks to their favorite search engine to make them an expert. This sounds like you are discouraging posts beneath the level of expertise required to be a participant here.


I don't see it that way.... In fact, I hope it sends a message to people to do a little reading/research first before starting out with "Hi, I'm new to Archery. What bow should I buy?" (not that anyone here would be rude about it) But, there are so many details missing it would be impossible to make a realistic suggestion.

It never fails, this time of year there are a ton of threads almost verbatim to this.... and every year we type in the same questions to pull more information from them.


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## JRT51

Well there's one thing we can all agree on.
It should certainly cut down on all those annoying rudimentary questions all these flipping new guys ask who are just here to get free advice.


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## TJ Jax

I’m a flipping new guy with questions to ask...
guess I should find a less sanctimonious plCe to ask them...


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## marcelxl

JRT51 said:


> Well there's one thing we can all agree on.
> It should certainly cut down on all those annoying rudimentary questions all these flipping new guys ask who are just here to get free advice.


Would certainly be nice if the search function was used or scroll thru a couple pages before asking. But agreed, there are LOTS of these posts, repetitive and daily. But its the times, instant need for what is wanted with less effort.

That said without fresh contributors, a forum can go stagnant.

This post needs to be a sticky at the top for sure.


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## JSTTH5US

TJ Jax said:


> I’m a flipping new guy with questions to ask...
> guess I should find a less sanctimonious plCe to ask them...


No!!!!! Don’t do that. Everyone starts somewhere and even the guys who complain about new guys questions once asked the same questions either in this forum or to a friend. Don’t let it get to you. The majority will help you out and are awesome! Ask any question you want! If they don’t like it or annoyed they can not read it and not respond. It’s crazy to think that someone can get upset about seeing “a new guy” ask a question. That’s what this is for and at the end of the day we are a small community and should always be promoting the sport of archery and each other. Please don’t let this discourage you. 

Nate 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## myth21

Don't be buying everything, research and research and narrow down a bit first is the route I went.


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## Brian N

TJ Jax - Everyone is welcome to ask questions, and is welcome on the forum. But, it helps when we know your ultimate goals and interests, which may evolve as you do. Also, personal information is important. Are you 6'4" and 30 YO or 5'4" and 60+ YO. It all helps to answer pointed, specific questions. Arne Moe (Moebow), Viper and others have given some very good suggestions and instruction to many archers, experienced and not so experienced. Enjoy the ride.


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## BarneySlayer

I think this should be another sticky, not just because the post is spot on, but also simply for the matter of efficiency. If the same question keeps getting asked, because of unfamiliarity or dysfunction with the search feature (new site overhaul, don't know how well it actually works), why waste knowledge resources (people's time) with what is effectively cut and paste.

I'm happy to help people as I'm able, but there are only so many times a person can answer the same question, and only so many people who can actually answer it in a way that is actually helpful, based on experience and a track record.

It's kind of like a teacher can assign reading, and then have a discussion on the reading.

If the kid doesn't want to do the reading, and then wants to debate the topic, well...


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## JSTTH5US

I agree this is a great thing for a person to read that is new to the sport. I also agree that the search function is awesome and people should do some searching to find their answers. It shows that you have a desire to find the knowledge. Hopefully this becomes a sticky soon and then if someone asks a question and the respondent doesn’t want to type it all out they can say “check this out”. I don’t agree with bustin new guys chops for asking questions though. That being said there are guys that just ask anything they can think of to get their post counts up for classifieds. I think the guys that have been around here a bit are able to identify the differences of a genuine question and a post to boost. 

I love this forum, I joined 8 years ago and it’s been a tremendous help! 

Nate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JRT51

Yes make this post a sticky , the new AT door matt


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## bltefft

SBK said:


> Thank you for the advice and taking the time to write them down.
> 
> I found out the hard way that a 45# long bow was not a good choice for beginners like me. Beginners would get tired quickly with a 45#. So I went back to my 20-25# to practice my form and can shoot 4 hours without being tired.


*
That's exactly what I learned. My 45# recurve is unstrung, hanging in my garage and I shoot my 25 and 30#'ders for hours and love it.*


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## camperjim

I have another suggestion well worthy of a sticky!

Buy Viper1's book, Shooting the Stickbow. It is a massive compilation of information and is very inexpensive. 

My next suggestion would be to find a mentor or coach. I am self taught and paying a heavy price for that approach by having to break bad habits.


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## Dartwick

WHAT on earth is JRT51 talking about - Vipers post was not condescending.


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## Bowmania

Very good thread. Could have been better if Tony had used his 'bigger piano' reference for a good laugh.

Things may be a little different on the east coast than here in the midwest, WI in particular. 'Ranges' here are usually a government (city or state) run entity and lack equipment for a beginner. Proshops here, except in unusual cases only cater to compounders. Clubs are a better bet, but members run the club and may or may not have beginners equipment. My club caters to beginners.

I would suggest the best bet in the midwest (maybe anywhere) is a coach from USA Archery. Coaches that I've run into have a place to shoot and equipment for a beginner. Yes I know that Tony's not a big KSL fan, but we're discussing beginners and any instruction is better than trail and mostly error.

This maybe a question on the terms range, clubs etc.

Bowmania


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## Smokedinpa

JRT51 said:


> Yes make this post a sticky , the new AT door matt
> 
> View attachment 7266522


Wow, I’m not sure how you got that out of Vipers post. His post is spot on. Make it a sticky please.


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## farscapesg1

JRT51 said:


> Yes make this post a sticky , the new AT door matt
> 
> View attachment 7266522


As a newbie to archery and also bringing my daughter into it.. I don't take the OP anywhere close to that. I guess if you have paper-thin skin maybe one could... nah, who am I kidding, there was nothing condescending or approaching a "go away" attitude in it. If you get upset because someone wants you to provide a little more detail then just "pick this for me" then you have a long road ahead of you in real life. Would you go to a car dealership and say "I want a new car.. pick one out for me please"? No, you go in with some expectations and desires like truck vs SUV, 2-wheel vs 4-wheel, 2-door vs 4-door, etc. and provide those details to the sales person to assist them in providing the better recommendations.


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## SBK

JRT51 said:


> I may get banned for speaking my mind but that's a pretty condescending position and thread starter for a public forum where people should feel free to come looking for advice from the "experts". I agree that the research involed in answering the basic questions about any subject are a major part of the education however, everyone today looks to their favorite search engine to make them an expert. This sounds like you are discouraging posts beneath the level of expertise required to be a participant here.


I am a newbie and couldn't read any condescending position from Viper. On the contrary, I am thankful that Viper took the time to write that down for beginners like me.


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## pipcount

JRT51.. Please please dont take the input that way. I would far rather that we built a nice welcome mat for new guys that said "Check out this posting for beginners, get some great ideas fast".. 
I think Viper was aiming for "lets get efficient and stop reproducing opinions, start building a nice Fact list." I am in product management at a big global manufacturing company, I have a FAQ I have built over years that folks REALLY appreciate- guys that have been around start looking at my FAQ for well documented, concise and straight forward answers to their questions FAST. I view this as "lets build a FAQ for beginning archers"

I am game to help.


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## GCook

For those who are starting and need some good information. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Lawsondmd

As beginner, ((10 months} who happens to be 57 years young, pretty good at researching on the internet ( my wife says I usually research something to death then decide not to buy it , lol)not afraid to read a book(read most of viper book and that doesn’t include constantly going back to figure out why all the sudden I’m wacking my nose,or what nock left means, or what’s d 97 or b 59 etc). I went to a a few ranges and archery stores before buying a bow. Started taking lessons ( got in 6 or 7 before covid ended that). And after reading all these tags my I say this. Ps this is my first real archery talk post😁
1. after reading vipers post I never thought that there was anything negative or condescending
2. I understand some people’s concerns of possibly snuffing out/ discouraging new archers questions but there is so much junk on the internet or if it isnt junk what the beginner needs to know And what not important for now. For instance , maybe after 4 months of starting archery ,from watching tube vids I thought I needed to bare shaft ( that’s what everyone was saying) till I saw a Jimmy Blackmond vid. saying get your form down first .
3. IMHO the greatest service you can do for the new archer is have a section for the new archer with what vapor wrote , a FAQ section like pipcount suggested to help point the new archer in the right direction . Archery is difficult enough without having to figure out how to start in it. some you tube video suggestions the could b helpful. Arnie Moes and archery 101 shot sequences vids are 2 that come to mind that got me pointEd in the right direction ( form , form , form).
4 . Encourage new archers to ask questions . That there r people here who love this sport and really want to help you. Even someone like myself who not usually afraid to ask questions was a little intimidated to ask questions on this forum.


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## GCook

TBH (texasbowhunter.com)has a "stickie" section at the top of the traditional forum. Lots of good information there as well.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Joe Hohmann

Viper can't say this, so I will...the FIRST thing to do is get on Amazon and order a copy of "Shooting the Stickbow".


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## TREESTANDSNYPER

Everything but the range or club is fine. Shooting trad in a compound world isn't as easy as you make it out to be. I've shown up to shops to shoot during the winter months and was almost looked at as an alien. People literally gathered around to watch me shoot with a recurve or longbow. Guy working at these shops had literally never shot a trad bow, and they looked on in wonder as I strung my bow and started shooting. I don't know of a single shop anywhere within several hours drive of me that knows anything about trad archery. Not ONE sells anything remotely related to trad archery or has a clue about shooting it and they most definitely do NOT have trad gear to just try out so you can see what you like. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## vincenthanna

Lighten up and listen to a guy that has actually wrote a book on traditional archery. He might know what he is talking about. Stay in this forum and learn, as I have.


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## Mike Lawless

JRT51, perhaps you're asking "Who does this guy think he is anyhow?"

camperjim and others answered that. Buy the book.


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## SBK

Big thank you to the forum admin to make this thread "Sticky" !


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## Oceanseedfarm

Thanks!


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## SteveB

Plagiarism is encouraged.


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## poosu

Here's my 2 cents as a 76 year old shooting compound for a year and enjoying it immensely, I bought a used recurve from a friend. I thought I was bad with a compound but the recurve opened up a whole new layer of inaccuracy. The best advice I finally got on aiming a recurve is on a YOUTube video called The Push. It's over 2 hours. For me by far the most important part was on aiming. The intro part on bow and arrow types is interesting. The final hour on hunting I never bothered to finish as I'll never hunt. The middle part on aiming is critical. I'm still struggling, but at least I have an idea what I'm trying to do


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## UNCLE RICKY

Thanks for this. I did read all the follow up comments. i just started a few weeks ago and these answer a few questions I have!

Rick


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## woof156

This is a great sticky note for anyone thinking about getting into archery. When I started I was lucky enuf to have a bow sensei and without him I would have been wandering in the dark. This post does not discourage questions nor newbies from asking questions. It is very useful to provide a pathway thru the door to this sport for anyone interested to venture thru and this is a good crack in that door.


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## CBald1

That is a good set of advice, I think access and opportunity are critical. A few years ago We started a small club in an area that doesn’t have one and it was clear that ‘if you build it, they will come’. But then it’s a lot of work to maintain and low cost equipment for beginners is another hurdle.


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## MWP330

This is a very good post for beginners. I have been shooting for only 4 months and this thread has some really good insights. I was lucky enough to stumble across a range that caters to beginner recurve archery. I wish I had come across this earlier it would of helped on a few fronts. Beginners should really try to follow the advice here in this thread I know I am.


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## Crowely

I sometimes hang out in a local archery shop. I watch the owner work with people . Sometimes when he gets busy he will ask me to help a little. I would definitely recommend that route if you have the means. Especially a shop that sells traditional and modern equipment and an open mind. Just wants to deliver the right product. I have watched and helped with just about every type of individual you can imagine . Seen them start from fresh and seen some get new equipment somewhere else and be confused or lost with it. Or someone that has it just about figured out but needs some help getting to the next level.

It won't take long...have everything adjusted for them. Maybe change out some junk component. Build some correct arrows. Add an accessorize or two. Take them on the range and work with them until they are shooting reasonably well. Give them instructions on how to begin their practice at home and how to care for their equipment. 

I highly recommend this if you have the means. It will jump start you . Then you can go crazy on forums and you tube. But a home base to fall back on is huge. Besides you need a place to maybe change your serving or warranty or non warranty work on a bow. And shoot indoors on a cold rainy day. Talk to other people , see what they do and what equipment they have. If owner has hunted and shot competitively so much the better. They have to care about helping people and know how to do it. Sometimes the environment can be pretty weird in some shops. You want someone that is into helping people. Try to go when they are not real busy. Come back several times if you have too. Does not matter if the people are good , if they are overwhelmed at the moment. Ask the days and hours they have the most free time and try to come back then.


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## Mo9090

Thanks Viper1 and everyone here for the tips. My archery bug started with a lesson. I don’t regret buying equipment to be able to shoot with my family in the back yard. Finding people and places to try stuff would be difficult for me and not preferred during this Covid time, so research has helped a lot. Thankfully what my archery lesson taught me was to go low on the poundage! I think people get caught up on trying to impress themselves or others with high poundage. I like shooting with low poundage.


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## carlosii

Joe Hohmann said:


> Viper can't say this, so I will...the FIRST thing to do is get on Amazon and order a copy of "Shooting the Stickbow".


I think if you go to his web site and buy the book all the money goes to him and Amazon doesn't get a cut


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## Viper1

Carlos - 

I wish. I don't personally sell the books and royalties are set by the publisher, doesn't matter where it's sold. 
I do appreciate the thought though, thanks.

Viper1 out.


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## rkcru63

I haven't been able to find much information on youth arrows so here it goes, my son will be 7 and we have found a sage polaris 18# but i have questions on what arrows to get for it. His draw length is 20in so im not sure if we need a 600 spine or 700 and if we should cut the arrows down to 24in if we should go with wood alum or carbon. Also if anyone has any arrow recommendations that wont break the bank.


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## Viper1

rk - 

At 7 "archery" is play time, so don't go too crazy about "the right arrows". 
However, not sure where you got the notion for 600-700 spine arrows.
1400-2000 would be closer, but like I said, it's really not critical at t6his point. 

Your best bet would be to find a JOAD program or "kids league", and most archery ranges do something like.
Granted it's a little trickier right now with the lock down.

Viper1 out.


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## Arrowbender

Viper1 said:


> Carlos -
> 
> I wish. I don't personally sell the books and royalties are set by the publisher, doesn't matter where it's sold.
> I do appreciate the thought though, thanks.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Ah, been meaning to get around to this and keep forgetting.

"Shooting the stickbow" is a great reference and very easily some of the best money I spent on archery stuff. Greatly recommended.
Thank you for writing it.
A copy of it made it halfway across the world and into my hands and years after buying it, I still go back to it.


----------



## DarthMazur

Brian N said:


> I would like to add a little:
> 1 - Be patient. You will not shoot like the compound archer next to you after just 3 sessions
> 2 - Don't worry about hitting the yellow center ring or bullseye every shot
> 3 - Keep it in perspective - its a fun pastime/hobby.
> 4 - Read, talk to others, watch videos, take a lesson or a few


That is awesome advice. Thanks.


----------



## almico

Wow, I violated almost every suggestion. I'm not sure what sparked the itch, but I got the archery bug a few weeks ago.

It was 50 years ago that, as a 10-year old, I built my first bow(s). They were nothing more than literally a stick and a string, but I remember the fun I had searching for the right stick that would bend and unbend, but not break. I remember making arrows, but never got around to attaching feathers. I just sharpened the tips, so the balance was off and I think I tied a string to the nock, like a kite tail. That seemed to help. By the time I sorted things out winter came and by next spring I was on to baseball. But the joy of hitting what I was aiming at with that very rudimentary bow stuck.

So the answer to the OP's question is: I'm getting into archery to pick up where I left off 5 decades ago. Now I'm prone to building things, golf clubs when I took up golf, guitars when I took up guitar, but I do not have the inclination to build bows. Instead, I browsed online for a while and ended up buying a not-too-cheap yew self bow. It's >60#@28" and I almost dislocated my shoulder trying to draw it. But it is a beautiful piece of kit and I look forward to working up to it.

I then bought a couple of older hickory bows for dirt cheap, a 35# longbow with a California Athletic Goods sticker on it and an old 40# Ben Pearson #501 Sherwood recurve. I bought some strings and new horn nocks for the longbow and started shooting in the backyard.

I soon figured out that if I don't want to lose arrows, I need something to shoot at. I bought a sheet of 2" thick neoprene and tacked a sheet of paper on it as a target. My first 3 shots were from about 10 yards out and I made a nice 3" group. I was tickled. That turned out to be beginners luck and I've been working on my form and watching videos regularly ever since.

I'm not interested in compound bows in the least. I'm not into sights and counterweights and competition. I like wood. Not even a big fan of glass, but we'll see. I've never hunted, but my property backs up to a wildlife management area and there are lots of critters. I harvested a deer once with my 1978 Toyota Corona and brought it home to clean and eat. Not an experience I yearned to duplicate, but maybe.

I just found an old Bear Kodiak Special and ponied up. I also bought a nifty little "horse bow" to fool around with. Both are 45# and should be serviceable.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Looking forward to this journey and the people I meet along the way.


----------



## Tntornado99

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I don't see it that way.... In fact, I hope it sends a message to people to do a little reading/research first before starting out with "Hi, I'm new to Archery. What bow should I buy?" (not that anyone here would be rude about it) But, there are so many details missing it would be impossible to make a realistic suggestion.
> 
> It never fails, this time of year there are a ton of threads almost verbatim to this.... and every year we type in the same questions to pull more information from them.


I am willing to bet that these people (greenhorns) don't realize that they aren't the first to ask these questions.
It's more rewarding to figure out most things for yourself...

I remember First getting into fly fishing, I wore the bookstores ,Magazines and local flyshops out, not to mention going to seminars.. I did my homework and went to the river with a 60.00 set up from walmart ,it felt more rewarding doing it all on my own. Rather than bumming the information, At the same time I understand that people have gotten lazy and they want instant success, blame it on the internet!!!!!


----------



## OHbowHNTR11

Tntornado99 said:


> I am willing to bet that these people (greenhorns) don't realize that they aren't the first to ask these questions.
> It's more rewarding to figure out most things for yourself...
> 
> I remember First getting into fly fishing, I wore the bookstores ,Magazines and local flyshops out, not to mention going to seminars.. I did my homework and went to the river with a 60.00 set up from walmart ,it felt more rewarding doing it all on my own. Rather than bumming the information, At the same time I understand that people have gotten lazy and they want instant success, blame it on the internet!!!!!


I don’t see how wearing out the guys at the fly shop is different than asking questions online. 

I bet online was not around then or things might have been different.?


----------



## Viper1

OH - 

Well, that really wasn't the purpose of the thread, but there kinda is a difference.

You talk to a guy at a pro shop, and when the two people part, the conversation is over/lost. 
And to be fair, the guys at the pro shop are kinda paid to repeat the same thing time over and over to anyone who walks in the door.

When you have a "conversation" on the Internet, it's forever. 

And while search functions do follow the GIGO principle, they do sorta work. Maybe just me, but before I ask a question on the Internet, I'm gonna do a Google search first.

I gotta admit, when I got started (as a kid), I read and re-read every book on archery and bow hunting I could find. (Still have all of them.) After a few years, I figured I knew what I was doing. Then I walked in to an archery club. Got a rude awakening. Yeah, I was over bowed and 20 yards was a lot farther than 20'. Didn't like it one bit, but at least I listened. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Tntornado99

OHbowHNTR11 said:


> I don’t see how wearing out the guys at the fly shop is different than asking questions online.
> 
> I bet online was not around then or things might have been different.?


Actually, I mostly listened , watched what people were buying, browsing all the stuff to decide what caught fish vs catching fisherman, Learning what the flies looked like .. I think the only real information I asked for was what was the difference between DT and WF. I had bought double Taper because I didn't know , so when I asked the sales person, he told me that WF is easier to cast and would be better for a beginner just learning. so I got 333 wf.. 

Anymore Questions???? Lol, just kidding. It's all good. And If you need advice I'll try my best.


----------



## Slicer021

Very nice info here. I ended up finding a small shop and going in nervous as heck LOL. After speaking to the Pro there he ended up loving Trad himself so was extremely helpful. The 1st time I went he spent almost 2 hours letting me shoot his personal bow and working with me on form. He asked me to come back later and we would shoot some of the bows he was selling to let me try some. I was on a budget and ended up going with a Galaxy Sage Elite. I was very thankful and actually going back to him now with my wife and daughter to get compounds since they want to start shooting.


----------



## Rdos

JRT51 said:


> I may get banned for speaking my mind but that's a pretty condescending position and thread starter for a public forum where people should feel free to come looking for advice from the "experts". I agree that the research involed in answering the basic questions about any subject are a major part of the education however, everyone today looks to their favorite search engine to make them an expert. This sounds like you are discouraging posts beneath the level of expertise required to be a participant here.


This is solid advice. Are you saying Google will guide you to making better decisions about beginning traditional archery than this thread? It so please direct me! 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Archery Talk forum - Apps on Google Play


----------



## lucydad

Viper1,

Thanks for your guidance. Glad this is a sticky.


----------



## Grittybow

Viper1 and Moebow helped me a ton, very grateful for all their insight. i bought Vipers book and he agreed to sign it for me but I never got around to shipping it. All great advice by both of them and others. I ended up with a Hoyt Buffalo and them went with a DAS tribute with ILF fittings slowly getting back into again as life sometimes throws you a curveball.

If i happen to meet either one at a Trad shoot, i would gladly buy them a beer.

People have to realize in an era in which almost everyone wants to monetize their advice or time, this free knowledge should be appreciated not trolled upon.


----------



## lucydad

Grittybow said:


> Viper1 and Moebow helped me a ton, very grateful for all their insight. i bought Vipers book
> 
> May I ask the name and author name of Viper's book please? I want a copy.
> 
> thanks


----------



## Pullmyfinger

Shooting the Stickbow 2nd edition.
By Anthony Camera.


----------



## Viper1

LD / PMF - 

Thanks for the support, 3rd Edition has been out for a year or so 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Fury90flier

Shows how much I pay attention, got that was version 2.

Looks like I need to make another purchase... Gave mine away to a new shooter


----------



## Pullmyfinger

Viper1 said:


> LD / PMF -
> 
> Thanks for the support, 3rd Edition has been out for a year or so
> 
> Viper1 out.


Copy that.
I'll order it soon.

The 2nd edition is a great book.
I'm looking forward to the updated version.


----------



## lucydad

Pullmyfinger said:


> Copy that.
> I'll order it soon.
> 
> The 2nd edition is a great book.
> I'm looking forward to the updated version.


 My copy of 2nd edition arrived today. Looking forward to study.


----------



## Viper1

Guys -

Being the worst salesmen alive...
For purely "trad", besides some new/better/updated pictures, the material is about the same.
There is more stuff on Olympic, some competitive BB and more on coaching.

I appreciate the support, but the second edition is fine, unless you really have to have the latest and greatest ... 

Viper1 out.


----------



## GW12

Awesome!!


----------



## CamoQuest

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Being the worst salesmen alive...
> For purely "trad", besides some new/better/updated pictures, the material is about the same.
> There is more stuff on Olympic, some competitive BB and more on coaching.
> 
> I appreciate the support, but the second edition is fine, unless you really have to have the latest and greatest ...
> 
> Viper1 out.


Thank you for mentioning this. I have the 2nd edition and was wondering what the differences are. Your book rarely stays on the bookshelf in our home, as I refer back to it all the time. Sometimes it follows me outside when I'm shooting, lol. Thank you for such a comprehensive resource. 

Julie


----------



## lucydad

Still waiting on backordered limbs. Had a lesson today and looking in my notes I am now at just over 9 weeks shooting archery: one lesson/week and one practice a week. Throw in four practice sessions at my Colorado cabin.

Today coach really helped me with consistent anchoring (string on nose) and micro-expansion of back muscles just before release. Getting there.
I have fun. It is a great hobby. The range is busy with summer and people wanting to try archery.


----------



## lucydad

X10 owner in Houston emailed to say: backordered limbs should arrive this week. So, I will have my own riser/limbs and custom string this week. 

Happy as practice last Friday was dismal and frustrating using different bow each session.

For Father's Day my daughters sent me this cool shirt. Good daughters.


----------



## Blakerat

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> A few times a week, the same exact question is asked. Usually goes something like this: "I'm thinking about getting into archery", or "I shot bows and arrows years ago and want to get back into it" or "I've been shooting a compound and want to try a recurve, what's a good bow to start with that won't break the bank". A lot of you may have asked that question yourselves.
> 
> Well, it's not as good a question as it seems.
> 
> First question might, or should be: do you have an end game (reason to getting into it), or just want to try it out and see where it goes. Both are viable answers, and both may, and usually will change over time.
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> 1. Don't "buy" anything. If at all possible go to a range or club and take a lesson. Most intro lessons are rudimentary by definition, but will give you an idea what's going on and may whet your appetite - OR totally turn you off. Hey, it happens.
> 
> 2. Use the range's or clubs equipment. While it may not be the best or even closely matched to anything, it will give you an idea about realistic bow lengths and weight. (As opposed to the guy who ultimately wants to kill an elephant and therefore has to start off with a 70# bow...)
> 
> Happily, that should directly answer the next question, which bow to buy.
> 
> 3. The fact is that (almost) any current production entry level bow will out shoot you (and me) for as long as we're alive. The factors you have to consider are length and draw weight. Beyond that, the bow has to appeal to you on some gut level. If it doesn't, you won't stick with it.
> 
> Bow length is based to some degree on purpose and to a lesser degree on draw length. In general, longer bows will be more stable in the hand and easier to shoot well, but may be cumbersome in tight hunting environments. While draw length factors in, as long as you don't go to extremes, it's not a real a concern with modern recurve bows. Examples of extremes would be a guy with a 32" draw (measured, not calculated) might not be too happy with a 48" bow and a guy with a 24" draw will rarely get full use from limbs on a 70" bow. Here, the middle ground may be best.
> 
> 4. If you've done your due diligence and have gotten to a range, taken a lesson, you should have a pretty good idea of what will work for you. The range, if it has some kind of Pro-shop, will recommend something that they stock. That's actually a good starting point.
> 
> Hint: no matter how badly you've been bitten by the archery bug, remember 4 things:
> 
> 1. Go generic, usually not a problem with entry level equipment; your need or tastes will change over time.
> 2. Don't spend more than you have to. Seems obvious, but see above about your tastes.
> 3. Go lighter than you "think" you can handle. Drawing a bow a few times has no bearing on being able to learn to shoot, when 50, 60 or more arrows will be required during a session.
> 4. Go longer than you think is "appropriate". Even if you think you'll be hunting Bambi from a tree stand or ground blind, you really do have to learn to shoot first and the fewer obstacles, the better.
> 
> OK, there really aren't any ranges near you. First off, I don't buy it. Sure you might have to drive a hour or more to get to one, but it will be time well spent. If there really aren't any, read, watch and come to some conclusions on what you want.
> 
> Then ...
> 
> Ask specific question here and on other archer forums. "What bow should I buy" will only get responses about what other folks like, which may or may not apply to you.
> 
> Do your research, pick out a few bows that float yer boat, and get opinions on those.
> 
> Arrows are another discussion, and for beginners, almost any arrow, as long as it's long enough to be safe (won't be pulled off the rest by a long draw shooter) is probably fine. Don't even think about "tuning" your rig, I can guarantee you, you are shooting well enough to make that happen.
> 
> Hope that helped.
> 
> and BTW, I'm not suggesting you don't ask questions, only that the better (more specific) the question, the better the answers.
> 
> Viper1 out.


I say ask questions for sure. It’s a lot to take in if you are truly new to archery, but no question is a dumb question when starting out.


----------



## Mironoxyflour

Agree, impatient dudS get no resultS


Brian N said:


> I would like to add a little:
> 1 - Be patient. You will not shoot like the compound archer next to you after just 3 sessions
> 2 - Don't worry about hitting the yellow center ring or bullseye every shot
> 3 - Keep it in perspective - its a fun pastime/hobby.
> 4 - Read, talk to others, watch videos, take a lesson or a few


----------



## Hikari

I guess I am not sure prescriptive advice is really that productive. I think people will get into archery on their own terms, and that is perfectly fine. There is no "right" way to do it. I got into mountain climbing by simply deciding to take up the sport and started with the second highest peak in Japan: Kitadate, 3,198m/10,476ft. I did my research, bought my gear, and went for it. My next mountain was Mt. Takao, 600m (in archery terms, you could say I was "overbowed" with my first choice). That experience led me to a lifetime of climbing and hiking. But it was not the experience on Mt. Takao that kept me engaged.

There is certainly good advice in this thread, but people are different. They have different motivations and different ways of learning. Most, regardless of approach, probably will not stick with it--most sports have high attrition rates with the exception of armchair refereeing. The best thing we can do is make the sport inviting and supportive. People are going to make mistakes, lets help them.


----------



## lucydad

For myself, now shooting since early April: taking lessons once/week and practice once-twice/week has been paramount. The learning curve to find actual form is very, very steep. Agree on keeping it fun, and not be overly self critical. I find good days and bad. One arrow at a time. Remember the concept of "beginner's mind".


----------



## wesdawn1

SBK said:


> Thank you for the advice and taking the time to write them down.
> 
> I found out the hard way that a 45# long bow was not a good choice for beginners like me. Beginners would get tired quickly with a 45#. So I went back to my 20-25# to practice my form and can shoot 4 hours without being tired.


I agree


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## Clahol

Good info


----------



## deleted_myself

I would like to respectfully disagree with Viper1 where he stated:

"1. Go generic, usually not a problem with entry level equipment; your need or tastes will change over time."

I've always done the exact opposite when getting into anything new, whether it be guitars, motorcycles, or archery. I just started and my first bow is a Hoyt RX5 (after trying out 5 other bows). It falls into that category of being such a superior bow that the pleasure of the draw through to the release are so amazing, it will drive the owner to shoot it frequently.


----------



## Arrowbender

grimes.ron said:


> I would like to respectfully disagree with Viper1 where he stated:
> 
> "1. Go generic, usually not a problem with entry level equipment; your need or tastes will change over time."
> 
> I've always done the exact opposite when getting into anything new, whether it be guitars, motorcycles, or archery. My first guitar was a $4000 Jose Oribe classical guitar. The sound was just amazing - even with beginner fumbling fingers. The instrument should be such a good quality that it makes you want to play it more.
> 
> When I bought a motorcycle, common wisdom was buy a lower cc bike, and work your way up. The retired motorcycle cop, now a manager at a dealership, gave me the opposite advice. It costs a lot more to buy a progressive set of bikes until you get what you really want. I bought a new BMW R 1200 RT as my first bike and have zero regrets. It's a freakin' amazing bike and its tech makes up for beginner shortcomings with its linked ABS brakes, dynamic ESA, etc.
> 
> Now, we come to bows, I just started and my first bow is a Hoyt RX5 (after trying out 5 other bows). It falls into that category of being such a superior bow that the pleasure of the draw through to the release are so amazing, it will drive the owner to shoot it frequently.


Considering you started archery a week or two ago, and are still working on stuff like figuring out draw length and form, I would maybe not assume you have all your archery preferences and setup sorted out already.


----------



## deleted_myself

Arrowbender said:


> Considering you started archery a week or two ago, and are still working on stuff like figuring out draw length and form, I would maybe not assume you have all your archery preferences and setup sorted out already.


Definitely true! I expect my form and bow settings to change a lot over the next couple months as I continue with private lessons. But, that has nothing to do with whether you should get entry level equipment to start off with or buy the best you can afford. I still stick by my lifelong practice of always buying the best from the beginning. It turns out cheaper in the long run.


----------



## Arrowbender

grimes.ron said:


> Definitely true! I expect my form and bow settings to change a lot over the next couple months as I continue with private lessons. But, that has nothing to do with whether you should get entry level equipment to start off with or buy the best you can afford. I still stick by my lifelong practice of always buying the best from the beginning. It turns out cheaper in the long run.


The point was more, it would be difficult to determine what's the best in something one has no experience doing, moreso because "the best" in archery is very subjective and based entirely on personal preferences that develop as one shoots more.
And the difference between entry-level and high end is much bigger in price than in actual accuracy.

To bring this back to traditional archery (which is the topic, and compounds are a very different animal): 
One would for example not want to spend a ton of money on one's initial limbs, because one's initial limbs should be light, for form practice. One has likely not figured out one's preferred total bow length or riser length yet either. If one chooses to splurge on limbs at all, for whatever little difference in feel or fps that delivers, one would do it on the actual target or hunting limbs that come later.
Or, one would not, if one were a beginner, want to drop 430 dollars on a dozen x10s, because one would see no benefit from them and wrecking or losing them would be painful.


----------



## deleted_myself

Arrowbender said:


> One has likely not figured out one's preferred total bow length or riser length yet either. If one chooses to splurge on limbs at all, for whatever little difference in feel or fps that delivers, one would do it on the actual target or hunting limbs that come later.


You may be right, but, in my short time in archery and reading forum posts, here and elsewhere, it doesn't seem to me that experience prevents one from continually changing bows due to whatever. If I end up regretting my Hoyt RX5 purchase, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I'm loving it. And, that's what it's all about, right?


----------



## Arrowbender

grimes.ron said:


> You may be right, but, in my short time in archery and reading forum posts, here and elsewhere, it doesn't seem to me that experience prevents one from continually changing bows due to whatever. If I end up regretting my Hoyt RX5 purchase, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I'm loving it. And, that's what it's all about, right?


That's what it's all about.
Re continually changing bows - most do it because they love new toys. Some do it because what they thought was their preference turned out not to be their preference. I've been in both situations myself.
Have fun shooting, that's the most important part. I think N&B has great advice in your other thread. 
No need to "inform me", I'm not super huge on offering advice and getting snark in return so I don't think we'll be speaking again.


----------



## deleted_myself

Arrowbender said:


> I'm not super huge on offering advice and getting snark in return so I don't think we'll be speaking again.


I think you're reading a tone that's not there, which means you're projecting the tone you would have, had you written the same thing. I could have read condescension into your first post to me, but I chose not to.


----------



## Viper1

ron - 

It's whatever floats your boat.
And while it actually may be cheaper, there are at least two flaws in your theory. Besides what Arrowbender said, after a few months your "best" equipment may wind up being totally inappropriate for you, and in a year or two, it won't be "the best" any more, if you believe the manufacturers. 

I know a few shop owners who love guys like you, even if they are laughing at you behind your back, but they have a right to make money too. And for the record, in my decades of shooting and teaching, most people with your perspective on equipment rarely stay with it. Just an observation. But yeah, it's your call.

Viper1 out.


----------



## deleted_myself

TJ Jax said:


> I’m a flipping new guy with questions to ask...
> guess I should find a less sanctimonious plCe to ask them...


I'm a new guy and I probably post/ask more than I should. Most of the people are very helpful, and I would say that on most forums, whether it's about archery or motorcycles or whatever, experienced folks are often on the forum because they enjoy helping newer members to the sport. Then ... you have a*holes who are condescending and expect new guys to slobber in gratitude for their unsolicited advice or they think you're being snarky and disrespectful. But, that's on any forum. It's just like jobs. If you change jobs to get away from that one a*hole, you'll find another one at your new place of employment. They're everywhere. So, just ignore the thin-skinned and those who self-invite their advice into a thread and then complain that new guys are only here to get free advice.


----------



## deleted_myself

Viper1 said:


> It's whatever floats your boat.
> And while it actually may be cheaper, there are at least two flaws in your theory. Besides what Arrowbender said, after a few months your "best" equipment may wind up being totally inappropriate for you, and in a year or two, it won't be "the best" any more, if you believe the manufacturers.
> 
> I know a few shop owners who love guys like you, even if they are laughing at you behind your back, but they have a right to make money too. And for the record, in my decades of shooting and teaching, most people with your perspective on equipment rarely stay with it. Just an observation. But yeah, it's your call.


So true. Neither piece of advice is wrong. It's just preference. Your advice is certainly valid and most people will think it's good advice to follow. I, on the other hand, with my 64 years on this planet, have found buying the best from the start, has always been cheaper in the long run for me AND it's made my entrance into any new activity more enjoyable because I'm working with the best and it's a pleasure to work with the best equipment and it's motivating.

BTW, I've read plenty of posts from experienced archers who bought a bow and then hated it after a couple years. In fact, one of the guys at the local archery shop was telling he was ready to buy a new buy because he used to love it, but now he's not looking forward to practicing like he used to. So, it appears being "experienced" doesn't mean, in a year or two, you still think your choice in bows was the best one. Lots of experienced guys are constantly buying another buy or replacing one with the latest and greatest. 

And, I could care less if they're "laughing behind my back". I'm not 14 years old anymore.


----------



## Mcmojoe

Good advice here. Can someone tell me how to calculate how much # you add as you got past the 28” draw length? I was measured 33” but I’m thinking I could be around 32-33. Thanks for this sticky post!


----------



## Viper1

Mcmojoe -

Draw weight at 28" / 20 = pounds per inch above or below marked weight the bow will gain/loose.
For example, a 40# @ 28" bow will gain or loose 2# per inch;
A 30# bow will gain / loose 1.5" per inch.

Unfortunately, it can get more complicated than that. With that kind of draw length, most entry level bows will reach their "stack point" well before you reach your anchor. When that happens, draw weight will begin to increase exponentially.

If you're a new recurve shooter, will will most likely either have to use arrows that are stiffer than expected to get a safe length or go for more expensive arrows than usually recommended.

Viper1 out.


----------



## Mcmojoe

Viper1 said:


> Mcmojoe -
> 
> Draw weight at 28" / 20 = pounds per inch above or below marked weight the bow will gain/loose.
> For example, a 40# @ 28" bow will gain or loose 2# per inch;
> A 30# bow will gain / loose 1.5" per inch.
> 
> Unfortunately, it can get more complicated than that. With that kind of draw length, most entry level bows will reach their "stack point" well before you reach your anchor. When that happens, draw weight will begin to increase exponentially.
> 
> If you're a new recurve shooter, will will most likely either have to use arrows that are stiffer than expected to get a safe length or go for more expensive arrows than usually recommended.
> 
> Viper1 out.


What are some stiff arrows you can recommend? Thanks for all the info!


----------



## Viper1

Mc - 

You're going to have to give me a little more info, like type of bow, draw weight at 28" and inte4nded arrow length.

Viper1 out.


----------



## Mcmojoe

Haha I guess I should buy a bow first before I ask about arrows. Will revisit. I was looking into getting the black hunter as a cheap option.


----------



## ArchersNationalPerk

Great advice!


----------



## RyanBon

Great resource here... echoed a lot of this to new people coming to my shop/range for a long time. Sound advice!


----------



## Aaro!

As someone who just joined, really glad to come across this post. Thanks!


----------



## BarneySlayer

My only contribution to finding out what bows you gravitate to, is that people can give you good advice, but a lot of us understand it better if we ignore it first, and then get first-hand experience that helps illustrate why that advice was so good. If you can follow your impulse to try new things, but also keep that advice on your shoulder balancing out your motivation, I think it helps bring that long and winding indirect path to a potentially best fit.

Of course, individuals vary, and even good advice is just a guideline that fits preference to function.

While most of the people who become really proficient don't rotate equipment more than they have to (Professionals are paid to 'upgrade', it's part of the gig), if you're enjoying the journey, cool.


----------



## Lycos

Wow! There is a lot of information on this thread going WAY back. LOL! My wife is working toward getting a new recurve. She started on a small, lightweight, bow to be able to learn the basics and really work on her form. As she has built up strength and her form improves, it's time to upgrade. Really appreciate all the information on here. thanks!


----------



## SimplyCosmic

As one of those approaching archery and recreational barebow for the first time, I appreciate the undertone of "think about it but don't _overthink_ it" when it comes to jumping in.

That said, I have a question:



Viper1 said:


> 4. Go longer than you think is "appropriate". Even if you think you'll be hunting Bambi from a tree stand or ground blind, you really do have to learn to shoot first and the fewer obstacles, the better.


I'm wondering what impact small differences in length can have? For example, if I have a 28" to 28.5" draw length, what impact does ending up with a 70" bow length with long ILF limbs have versus what many of the charts recommend of a medium limb for 68"? This would be for reasonable beginner poundage of 24#.

My limited-knowledge assumption is "not that much", though it'd likely be less poundage at that draw length, though possibly more steady?


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## Viper1

SC- 

The trick is to NEVER fight the draw weight of the bow. Not on your first shot and not on your last. In that regard, "over-bowing" is still the biggest mistake most new and experienced shooters make. A new shooter won't, or at least shouldn't, be going beyond 20 yards for a number of months, and certainly shouldn't be thinking about "hunting" weights and higher weights shouldn't enter into the picture. For some one getting into this seriously, 24# isn't a bad start. As your form develops, so will your strength and more importantly stamina. 

The basic rules for bow length work well. 
Below 27", think 66", 27"-29", 68" and over 29", 70". 
How much of a difference does it really make? At beginning levels, a lot less that most would have you think. The only exception would be very long (or very short) draw shooters. In those cases, "stacking" or not flexing the limbs enough (respectively) can become factors. As you gain experience, you might find that YOUR optimal length may be slightly out side of the ranges I mentioned. For example, I draw around 28.5", and just "feel" way better with a 70" bow. 

Viper1 out.


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## greyskyze

Nice, wish I read this before buying! I haven't fired a bow for 25 years and I just bought a 50# bow. Shooting it is not the problem. I can hit the bullseye from 25 yards every time without a problem. Shooting it more than 5-10 times in a row is the problem. After about 5 shots my finger is killing me. Time for a lighter weight bow!


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## 1bow2shooters

Viper1 said:


> The basic rules for bow length work well.
> Below 27", think 66", 27"-29", 68" and over 29", 70".
> How much of a difference does it really make? At beginning levels, a lot less that most would have you think. The only exception would be very long (or very short) draw shooters. In those cases, "stacking" or not flexing the limbs enough (respectively) can become factors. As you gain experience, you might find that YOUR optimal length may be slightly out side of the ranges I mentioned. For example, I draw around 28.5", and just "feel" way better with a 70" bow.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper1, good thread. I've got your book, BTW, good stuff. I'm glad you eventually caved and put it in digital format!

I'm curious about this as I see references to bow length fairly frequently, but then fairly common entry level bows are bows like the Sage, Spyder, etc..., and those are often 62". Then you've got something like the Spyder XL which is 64". For many, most of these, the recommended draw is 26-28". Then for the Spyder XL, they say 'longer than 28".' But then I see posts about 66", 70", and, I think, even 72". Can you clue me in?

My wife and I would like to casually get into archery (shooting on our rural property, also getting our 6yo grandson into it). I'm thinking to start with, we should get something decent, but simple and inexpensive, so I was thinking about something like the Sage in a low draw weight. Based on the "arm-span/2.5" guideline, I'm expecting her draw to be about 26.5" and mine to be 29-29.5". I was thinking of getting something like a Sage/Spyder @20#@28". I figured that would put her a bit less than 20# (drawing less than 28") and me a bit more than 20# (drawing a little longer) [once we have been shooting enough to reach our draw length potential]. But your post about longer bows is a bit confusing.

I've also wondered about something even more basic, like the Galaxy Bullseye.


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## Captainkirk

Old(er) thread but gotta throw in my 2 cents.
First, there was, and is, nothing condescending about the original post. When I came back to trad archery about 8 years ago (give or take) after a brief fling with compounds, I made every mistake in the book. Had I read Shooting The Stickbow, before diving in I could have saved myself all kinds of trouble and the cost of buying a bow that was too much for me at the time...and still over my preferred draw weight. As I learned, I bought Viper's book and made a huge leap forward, and I can say after sending a few PMs to Viper he responded in the most humble and helpful ways I could imagine, patiently answering my questions and NEVER being "condescending" or anything but kind and friendly, including advice on whether or not certain vintage bows I was interested in would be right for me. "Go Away" is so far off from the truth as to be absurd. And here you have two of the most respected trad archery coaches in the country, Viper and Arne Moe, getting heat about trying to keep people from wasting money or making stupid mistakes.


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## Viper1

1B2S - 

Not sure if I replied to this already. Unfortunately, the wingspan/2.5", is hit or miss at best. You're probably "OK" with the Sage @ 29.5", as long as it doesn't turn out to be any longer, but it's longer version would be a little safer. 

The Galaxy Bullseye is a cheaper version of the Sage, but the limbs can be problematic, both in performance and durability. So, it's do-able, but if you have a choice, I'd probably pass. 

It's been a while, and if you made a choice, I'd like to hear how it turned out. 

Tiberius -

Long time no type, hope all is well. It's just the Interweb. Kinda like a safety valve for people to blow off steam. It's more the "I'm right and your wrong" thing than just different opinions.

Viper1 out.


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## oc_in_fw

Thanks to this thread, I have a new book on my list. Come on payday.


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## Captainkirk

oc_in_fw said:


> Thanks to this thread, I have a new book on my list. Come on payday.


And you won't regret it.


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## Uncle Rico

Moebow said:


> JRT51 NOT sure where you see that... "condescending!" And the rest, "discouraging posts?" Viper really nailed the topic, IMO.
> Anyone that has spent much time actually instructing folks recognizes the absolute truth and good advice given. YES!! Ask questions, IF you don't know ASK!!! But too, if you ask questions, you MAY want to listen to the answers. I see many that want to buy just one bow for hunting so it has to be XX#. I shoot a million pound compound so think I can shoot a 60# recurve. We see this all the time then when the advice is 25 or 30# they are insulted and move on or argue the point. It's just frustrating to try to answer questions with good advice based on years of teaching to have that effort disregarded. Many of use are REALLY here to help lead a person to SUCCESS not failure.
> 
> GREAT POST VIPER!!!!!!
> 
> Arne


Condescending? Holy cow is that a stretch. That was a truth teller in action. I wish I would have read that 7 years ago when I got into trad gear - would have saved me a lot of time and money. EXCELLENT POST. 

I would add (humbly - because that was an awesome outline) that a newcomer will learn more rapidly by also exploring various videos on YouTube, etc. Though some of them will always be useless, many are helpful and led to "testing" different grips, aiming techniques, etc. Through trial and error and tons of practice you will find your way to shooting well. I started as a split finger more vertical shooter with wood arrows shooting in the mid 50's for draw weight. 7 years in I am a 3 under shooter with a 1:30pm cant using almost exclusively aluminum on bows ranging from 43 to 51 pounds. (Again wish I read this back then!) It has been a journey - but one of joy not labor. 

One thing is for sure, I still get bored about 14 seconds after I pick up my compound and shoot it once. I never ever ever ever get sick of shooting my sticks. In fact it is usually darkness or fatigue that ends my shooting sessions.


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## lead0r

I follow the atomic habits principle of starting something with the intent to become something, vs starting something to just do something. It has worked well for me.


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## Archie765

Ok, so I’m going to be one of those newbies that will ask the same question over and over again! Sorry, but what is the difference between shooting a recurve or a longbow? If they are the same poundage, don’t they shoot the same? I want to focus only on one or the other, I only want to target shoot, no hunting for now?
Last question, will a 35# bow, long or recurve, be able to effectively shoot targets at 20 or 30 yards?


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## oc_in_fw

Archie765 said:


> Ok, so I’m going to be one of those newbies that will ask the same question over and over again! Sorry, but what is the difference between shooting a recurve or a longbow? If they are the same poundage, don’t they shoot the same? I want to focus only on one or the other, I only want to target shoot, no hunting for now?
> Last question, will a 35# bow, long or recurve, be able to effectively shoot targets at 20 or 30 yards?


On the second question, 35 lbs should be great for that distance. On the first, I believe they should shoot about the same. The recurve may put the arrow out a little faster, but it could also have a little more noise. If I screwed up the answer to #1, someone with more experience (I am relatively new and shoot recurve) will correct me.


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## Viper1

Archie - 

Those are actually better questions that you might think. 
The answer to the first question is NO. They won't shoot the same. 
90% of the difference for a new a new shooter will be the grip contour, typically the grip on a recurve will help you position you hand the same way each time. "Some" longbow" grips might come close, bot not most.

Next is physical weight. Recurves will usually be heavier, and that can add to stability, it's the inertia thing. 

Speed gets tricky. While a classic longbow usually won't match the speed, pound for pound, of a modern recurves, a lot of "modern" R/D LBs get close, because they are nothing more than recurves with VERY long curves. Add to that that, again "most LBs" aren't cut anywhere near center shot, tuning can be trickier for a newbie.

For a new shooter, a light weight recurve is usually the safest bet, but "light weight" is relative. A guy I was training a number of years ago, showed up at the range with a 35# Samick Sage and aluminum 1816s arrows, that he bought from a local "Pro Shop", and one with a good rep. Perfect set up, right? Well no. What they forgot to do was check his draw length; it was pretty close to 32". That made the Sage well over 40#, and way too heavy for him, and btw, full length 1816s are 30". We got him a lighter, longer bow and the correct length arrows and he's been a happier camper ever since. 

For the last question, I have people shooting 70 meters with way less than 35# (and the right arrows).

Viper1 out.


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## Archie765

oc_in_fw said:


> On the second question, 35 lbs should be great for that distance. On the first, I believe they should shoot about the same. The recurve may put the arrow out a little faster, but it could also have a little more noise. If I screwed up the answer to #1, someone with more experience (I am relatively new and shoot recurve) will correct me.


Thank you for the good info, I appreciate it.


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## Archie765

Viper1 said:


> Archie -
> 
> Those are actually better questions that you might think.
> The answer to the first question is NO. They won't shoot the same.
> 90% of the difference for a new a new shooter will be the grip contour, typically the grip on a recurve will help you position you hand the same way each time. "Some" longbow" grips might come close, bot not most.
> 
> Next is physical weight. Recurves will usually be heavier, and that can add to stability, it's the inertia thing.
> 
> Speed gets tricky. While a classic longbow usually won't match the speed, pound for pound, of a modern recurves, a lot of "modern" R/D LBs get close, because they are nothing more than recurves with VERY long curves. Add to that that, again "most LBs" aren't cut anywhere near center shot, tuning can be trickier for a newbie.
> 
> For a new shooter, a light weight recurve is usually the safest bet, but "light weight" is relative. A guy I was training a number of years ago, showed up at the range with a 35# Samick Sage and aluminum 1816s arrows, that he bought from a local "Pro Shop", and one with a good rep. Perfect set up, right? Well no. What they forgot to do was check his draw length; it was pretty close to 32". That made the Sage well over 40#, and way too heavy for him, and btw, full length 1816s are 30". We got him a lighter, longer bow and the correct length arrows and he's been a happier camper ever since.
> 
> For the last question, I have people shooting 70 meters with way less than 35# (and the right arrows).
> 
> Viper1 out.


Thank you Viper1. Now I feel better about getting a recurve bow at 35#!!!


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## WRC 51

I was wondering where Viper 1s book could be bought? Alot of the posts in this thread kind of mirrored my Archery Journey ...Thanks


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## oc_in_fw

WRC 51 said:


> I was wondering where Viper 1s book could be bought? Alot of the posts in this thread kind of mirrored my Archery Journey ...Thanks


Here ya go









Shooting the Stickbow: A Practical Approach to Classical Archery, Third Edition: Camera, Anthony: 9781951985073: Amazon.com: Books


Shooting the Stickbow: A Practical Approach to Classical Archery, Third Edition [Camera, Anthony] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Shooting the Stickbow: A Practical Approach to Classical Archery, Third Edition



www.amazon.com


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## WRC 51

Thank You 0c-in-fw


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## Eleclipse

I've been lurking for some time and this thread really helped a lot, i'm also in the middle of reading the book (which i find very interesting even outside the archery field, expecially the coaching parts that i've read till now).

I'm in need of the same old advice "what is a good first bow to buy?", but thanks to all this readings i can at least narrow it down to this:

I just started archery, traditional, i have a field very near my home with some targets and various 3d animals in the hills around.
I do like archery so far, a lot even, but i honestly don't know how much i will stick to it in the future, since it's not my main sport i can already say that during winter i will go one or less time a week, more during spring and summer probably (the archery range is only in the open, without lights).

So i want to buy a good starting bow without spending too much money.

One of the instructor own a small company that manufacture bow (and also sell carbon limbs around the world), it's not a proper shop yet, but almost, he also sells quiver and others things.

I asked him if he have something for a newbie like me, most of his suff start from the intermediate range, he proposed a 60'' 35# ilf bow, riser + limbs, used only in exhibition, 250€(246$). It seems a very nice bow and i enjoyed trying it. Riser in Ebonized Ash and limbs with carbon foil. Cost new around 560.



Spoiler: Photo of an almost identical bow made by him































Adding the string, the arrows and everything else taked as a bundle from him the total price is around 500.
Which seem totally fair as far as i know, even a good deal maybe? (i don't have enough experience to actyally know)

I've only one doubt, am i overgearing?

I also searched for some used bows and came across a couple of interesting ones (even if less pretty, at least in my eyes), in both of the following cases i don't know the specific lenght of the arrows.


Specifically a Hyot TD4++ with a set of other things (see photo); total 250



Spoiler: TD4


































And a Samick "kit" for 200



Spoiler: Samick





































So the big question is, do i go for the cheaper but probably not as good options (which one in this case?) and see how much this new passion develop or do i go with the other more costly option that seems better and also by someone i can go if any problem arise?


Thanks for any advice!


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## Viper1

E -

You gave us a lot of good information, except what you planned on doing with the bow and your draw length. For a (potential) bow hunter with an average draw length, his suggestion is more than reasonable. If you're not interested in hunting, and / or you're 6'6" tall then maybe not. 

Your two bows pictured (Hoyt TD/4 (Gold Medalist) and Samick) bows are both EXCELLENT choices for a target archer, but again, knowing your draw length or at least how tall you are has to factor in.

Viper1 out.


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## Eleclipse

Thanks for the answer and help, you're right!

I'm not interested in hunting, i like the target but i expecially like to shot ad the the 3d animals in the itineray in the hills, it has almost 25 different places (that differ in distance, obstacles and difficulty, you are often inside the wood) place to use and i really enjoy shooting at tri-dimensional target.

Sadly i totally forgot to ask for my drawn lenght to the instructor (will do but he's away for a few days, so i'll have to wait).

I'm a male, 36 years old, height 175cm (5.74 foot)

--

Also, if useful, a guy who's switching to longbow this morning asked if i was interested in buying his picchio bow (see below) #33 - 220€ with quiver and case.



Spoiler: picchio bow


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## MulieStalker

1) Tinker til it’s perfect, then tinker some more, then buy new bow. Rinse and repeat.

2)If youve spent too much on archery already, you’re wrong. Revisit #1


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## Eleclipse

Luckily i've only spent the course money!

I'm searching for my first bow and was trying to buy the right thing that le me experiment in a good way while not being too expensive.


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## Viper1

E - 

Given the prices of the two used bows you pictured, I think they would be good fits. If we assume a draw length of around 28", both bows will be OK. Once your form settles, we can figure out if 70" is optimal or dropping down to a 68" bow might be better. That would just mean making your next pair of limbs mediums, instead of longs.

Viper1 out.


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## Eleclipse

Viper1 said:


> E -
> 
> Given the prices of the two used bows you pictured, I think they would be good fits. If we assume a draw length of around 28", both bows will be OK. Once your form settles, we can figure out if 70" is optimal or dropping down to a 68" bow might be better. That would just mean making your next pair of limbs mediums, instead of longs.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Thank you very much!

Just out of curiosity since it's all kinda new to me, why if bow hunting was something i had interest in the other bow would be better?


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## Viper1

E - 

Bow hunters typically like shorter bows, as they are easier to maneuver in the woods, and a slight loss of smoothness or accuracy is a fair trade off. Target shooters want (need) to optimize their shots, and longer bows are usually just easier to shoot with repeatable consistency.

Viper1 out.


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## Eleclipse

I see! thank you for the clarification.


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## Eleclipse

Ok i swear this is the last question about this specific problem.

I just realized i used the wrong photo on the bow from the instructor and didn't mention it's an ilf (see below), he also mentioned some kind of easy setup mechanism, does this change anything? (don't think so, but just to be sure)



Spoiler: Riser























Thanks for the patience.


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## Viper1

E - 

Well, ILF makes it better, but it's still going to be a shorter bow. While I wouldn't recommend it for a new target archer, it really has to be your call. 

Priorities have to be: 
1. Physical attraction (YOU have to like it)
*2. Draw weight*
3. Length

Viper1 out.


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## Eleclipse

Again thanks a lot!

The physical attraction it's a peculiar point but it make a lot of sense, it's not easy to evaluete it with things buyed online but well, i'll go with my gut feeling and if i later i don't like i'll just sell it and buy another (but with more experience this time!).

I'll probably soon return with a question like "did i setup properly my bow?" 😂

This is expecially true if i take tye hyot td+++ (is it pronounced td3?) since i read online that it may require some minor adjustment to be 100% compatible with modern ilf limbs.


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## Viper1

E - 

A TD3 would require more than a little adjustment to use ILF limbs, but the black bow in the picture is a TD4/Gold Medalist, which is ILF and will accept most any current ILF limb. 

Viper1 out.


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## Eleclipse

You're right, i got confused.
Thanks again!


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## Globemaster

Viper1 thank you for making this thread, coming from the compound world it is certainly valuable!


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## Viper1

Globemaster - 



Viper1 out.


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## smithca1988

Eleclipse said:


> Ok i swear this is the last question about this specific problem.
> 
> I just realized i used the wrong photo on the bow from the instructor and didn't mention it's an ilf (see below), he also mentioned some kind of easy setup mechanism, does this change anything? (don't think so, but just to be sure)
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Riser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 7721590
> 
> View attachment 7721589
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the patience.


Is this the 17 inch/43.25 or the 19 inch riser? The 17 Inch version that also comes in Left for those who need a left eye dominate bow has issues with needing to shave out the inside of the riser past the bolt/tiller. The limbs made mostly for 23 or 25 inch/58.5 or 63.5 cm riser as specified on the limbs are going to be much higher poundage on a bow riser of this size, +2 pounds for every 1 inch/2.25 cm taken away from the bow and if 17 inch/43.25 inch riser the beginner might not be able to take even some cheap 20 pound limbs as then the bow is 36 pounds from said riser if the limbs are from a 25 inch/63.5 cm riser. This is assuming you have a 28 inch/17 cm draw or you add 1 pound for first 1 inch/2.25 cm over and add 2 pounds for each 1 inch or 2.25 past that.


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## Viper1

smith - 

I don't know the specs of every riser out there, but rarely do 17" risers have the same limb pocket angles as a 23" or 25" riser. So while the limbs will be heavier than marked for a 23" or 25" riser, it might not be as much as you suggest. 

Only legit option is to deal with a place like LAS or 3R and have them weigh the rig before shipping.

And ... eye dominance isn't always the determining factor, just sayin' 

Viper1 out.


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## smithca1988

Viper1 said:


> smith -
> 
> I don't know the specs of every riser out there, but rarely do 17" risers have the same limb pocket angles as a 23" or 25" riser. So while the limbs will be heavier than marked for a 23" or 25" riser, it might not be as much as you suggest.
> 
> Only legit option is to deal with a place like LAS or 3R and have them weigh the rig before shipping.
> 
> And ... eye dominance isn't always the determining factor, just sayin'
> 
> Viper1 out.


Yes, but In this case the 19 inch version of this riser made of Bamboo layers is only sold in right hand by the majority of the makers/Chinese sellers of this style of riser in blue. The 17 inch Blue does come much easier in Left hand styles. This being a person who was looking for a bow riser like this. I was also saying this to help tell if the riser is the 17 inch style as then if 17 inch the bow needs the limb pockets fixed by being made lager inside the pocket then clear coat to protect the part sanded away. I know as I asked a guy on Reddit who uses the same riser and put up a helpful hint to people who ruined limbs like he did mashing them into the bow riser of this model, with 95% of others complaining the limbs to not fit unless you do the mash on and they worry about Breaking the limbs.


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## 1bow2shooters

Viper1 said:


> 1B2S -
> 
> Not sure if I replied to this already. Unfortunately, the wingspan/2.5", is hit or miss at best. You're probably "OK" with the Sage @ 29.5", as long as it doesn't turn out to be any longer, but it's longer version would be a little safer.
> 
> The Galaxy Bullseye is a cheaper version of the Sage, but the limbs can be problematic, both in performance and durability. So, it's do-able, but if you have a choice, I'd probably pass.
> 
> It's been a while, and if you made a choice, I'd like to hear how it turned out.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Thanks. I got a bow for Christmas. We ended up getting the Bullseye 48" for our 6yo grandson. He's enjoying it when he visits. Since he got the Bullseye, I got a Bullseye 66" for Christmas so we would match because that's the kind of thing that a 6yo loves. So far, I'm loving it, and if I end up needing/wanting to change, it was inexpensive enough that it won't be a big deal.


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