# Having trouble. Please help!



## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

Lately i have been holding the pin below the target and its very difficult for me to get the pin up to the bullseye, and when im fatigued i cannot get it up. I dont know if its target panic or what. Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

Most likely target panic. But you can try holding over the target and then dropping down until the release.


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

It sounds like you're experiencing a common problem that arises when archers try to consciously control their sight pin and their release at the same time. You can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time... no one can. You can begin your shot with the pin above the spot and let it float down, but it isn't really a cure... just a band-aid. It may help some to begin with, but when I went through this same thing, that's the first thing I tried... and it didn't take long for things to get progressively worse for me. For me, freezing below the spot was the first thing I noticed at the begining of my battle with target panic.

The best way I know of to beat it is... instead of watching your sight pin and forcing the release to go off when it gets to the target, you have to forget about the pin and direct your total concentration to the spot you want the arrow to go. Just let the pin float around the spot and slowly squeeze the trigger, while remaining totally focused on the spot you want to hit. An even better way to trigger the shot is to use back tension to make the release go off as a complete surprise. Relaxation is a big key to doing it this way. Only your back muscles are under any real tension when doing it this way. With the rest of your muscles relaxed as much as possible, the sight pin doesn't move very much at all.

If you want to learn to do this by yourself... this is the best way I know how to go about it. Just a warning though... skipping steps and taking short-cuts may lessen the results you have with it.

********** HOW TO SHOOT WITH BACK TENSION AND A SURPRISE RELEASE *********


.......................................THE GRIP..................................................
Before drawing the bow, position your hand on the grip and start pulling with your release hand to put pressure on the string. You are trying to find the exact spot for your bow hand to be in on the grip. You want to feel all of the pressure from the bow at one point on your bow hand when you're at full draw. Pretend there is a steel rod running parallel and exactly between the two bones in your forearm. Where that rod would exit your palm is where this point is. If you find this spot, it will help keep you from torquing the bow handle. Also, if you will rotate the bottom of your bow hand away from the bow a few degrees for your grip, you will clear a path for the bowstring and negate torque at the same time. Learn to find your grip before you draw the bow on every shot, but once you start your draw, do not move your bow hand AT ALL.

...........................................RELAXATION............................................
At full draw, your release hand as well as your bow hand, should be completely relaxed. You don't want to be grasping or squeezing the barrel of the release or the grip of your bow handle. Also, do not force either of your hands open. Your fingers should be hanging limp and relaxed. I lightly touch my first finger and my thumb together around the bow handle, but some people use a wrist sling. Use the bones in your arms and the muscles in your back to hold as much of the weight of the bow at full draw as you can. Relax every muscle in your arms that you don't need to use to stay at full draw. That goes for the muscles in your shoulders, torso and legs, too. Remember; tension in your muscles is what causes your sights to wobble and jump around. If you can learn to relax everything that isn't needed to hold at full draw, your sight pins will barely even move. It is very important that your bow is set at the correct draw length. If it is too long, you will have a very hard time relaxing fully.

..........................................BACK TENSION............................................
Next thing to work on is getting a surprise release. Learning this correctly, right from the start, is far easier with a back tension release, (BTR). To make a BTR fire, you flex or squeeze the muscles of your back so that your shoulder blades are trying to touch. To find these muscles, have someone stand facing you while you pretend to hold a bow at full draw. Have them grasp your elbows and try to force you to give them a hug while you resist, all the while keeping your arms relaxed. The back muscles you feel resisting are the ones you need to flex to make the BTR fire. 

............................................AIMING......................................................
To aim, reach full draw with perfect T form, line up your bubble level, pick the right pin and center it all in the peep. Next, move your whole upper body to get on target. You don't want to just move your arm up and down or side to side. That introduces torque. At full draw, your upper body and arms should at all times form a perfect T shape. When everything is lined up, start consciously relaxing muscles. Hold the bow back with your back muscles. Start with relaxing your hands and work your way up your arms and through the shoulders. When you've shot this way enough, you won't have to even think about this step. Then go into aiming mode. Your full concentration switches to the spot and only the spot. The pin is blurry and it will still seem to float around the spot, but you need to forget about the pin. You will naturally try to keep it on the spot without even thinking about it. You should be focusing on the spot and nothing else. Keep your concentration while slowly squeezing through the shot, making sure to follow through after the release. The first few times the bow goes off, it will scare the heck out of you. Keep at it! You will get used to it and it's important to never be able to anticipate the shot. No cheating! Focus... concentrate on the spot you want to hit and just squeeze through until the shot breaks.

............................................THE FOLLOW THROUGH......................................
When you "follow through" after the bow goes off, people say you should try to keep the pin on the target or keep aiming until the arrow hits. I've always felt that that was a bad way to describe it. You can't keep aiming or even see the pin once you shoot. What I would say is... keep your T form until you hear the arrow hit, do not drop your bow arm or move your head, stay relaxed and let the bow go where it wants to with out grabbing it. Good follow through takes practice.


............................................THE FIRST STEP.............................................
It's tempting to just go right out and try all of this on a target at 20 yards, but DON'T DO IT! When you start trying all of this for the first time, it is very important, and it will speed up the learning process... if you completely eliminate the aiming part of shooting the bow. Work on relaxation and a surprise release before you ever have to worry about aiming. You need to ingrain the feel of the shot process so that it becomes automatic... as in the term, "muscle memory." You do this with your eyes closed at first. Your target needs to be at the same height as your arrow. I hang my target from a rafter and stand close, so that the tip of my arrow is about 3 1/2 feet away from the target at full draw. After you reach full draw and have lined everything up, close your eyes, relax and think through every step of the shot. 


..............................................THE FOUNDATION..........................................
When that feels VERY comfortable, move to a blank target that is 3 yards away and start shooting with your eyes open, but use no spot and try not to aim for a spot on the target... in fact, it would be better to just take the sight off your bow for this step. When you are so sick of doing this every day that you are ready to hang yourself, (something like 3 weeks later... at least 1000 arrows), move to 5 yards with a big spot and try it all while aiming. Over the next few weeks, use a smaller and smaller spot to aim at. Then work your way out to longer and longer distances, starting every session at the hanging target with your eyes closed. If you ever feel like your backsliding... anticipating the shot or doing something else wrong, don't be afraid to get close again. Don't cheat here! You are building a new foundation and you have to start from the bottom up. You don't want to re-cycle any of the weak, faulty bricks you used in your old foundation. Take your time and do this right! Any shortcuts you take right now will come back to haunt you! Guaranteed!


.....................................THE SWITCH TO AN INDEX FINGER RELEASE..................
Adjust your release so that the 2nd pad back from the tip of your finger is curled over the trigger. Don't use the tip of your finger. It is too sensitive and easy to move. The aiming process and shot sequence are exactly the same with an index finger release as it is with a back tension release. Put as much pressure on the trigger as you can without making it fire and then squeeze just your back muscles until it goes off. 

.....................................................THE MIND SET..................................................
When I was faced with target panic, I realized that I was going to have to change my thinking. I had always felt that I needed to "shoot the bow." Instead, I came to the conclusion that I needed to let the bow shoot itself! I had found a new philosophy in archery. To be static. A bow shooting machine. To just stay out of the way and allow the arrow to leave the bow with no outside influences working against it... namely me! After all, if my bow was being shot out of a shooting machine... the arrows would all be going in the same hole! Just that little bit of attitude adjustment, that little change in my approach to shooting, was all that it took to get my mind right. Shooting a bow in this way is truly amazing! It defies logic, really, and at some point in all of this process, you will know you are doing it right because your arrows will keep going dead center of the bull's-eye... even when you know the pin was not on the spot at the time your bow went off. Kind of like some kind of Zen-master ninja-jedi... no kidding!


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## Tommy83 (Aug 7, 2010)

da white shoe said:


> It sounds like you're experiencing ...


Great post! Lots of good info in there! Reminds me of something a buddy of mine told be once in the beginning - "Just relax, get outside physical influences outta the way as best you can and let the bow do it's magic..." I like the bow shooting machine analogy and use it all the time. Torque is huge, and many times I tell myself to just let the bow "shoot right out of my hand". It never does of course, but doing that ensures good follow through for me with zero torque.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Shoes post has great information, especially the last paragraph. "...let the bow shoot itself."

While rebuilding your shot per the above, here are a few things to work on that are specific to the droopy pin. 

Since you are having more trouble keeping it up when you are tired, it's likely that you haven't built a good bone-on-bone structure. You are using too much or the wrong muscles. Your bow shoulder is one of the keys to this. Get it down and make it sort of a structural strut. 

Peep height - if it's too low, it can cause you to tip your head, which starts a chain reaction in the muscles and bones that pushs your pin down.

Back tension - my old coach told me "the tension of holding is achieved in the back and only in the back. All the rest, arms, shoulders hands, etc. are just hooks and levers". One thing to watch for is relaxing your back tension as your bow rolls over to the let-off. Keep the back muscles engaged as much as possible. 

Draw length - sometimes a DL that's a little long can cause the pin to droop a bit. 

In addition to blank bale, a drill that helps with this is to draw and hold and let down without letting an arrow go. Only hold as long as you can keep your form together. Don't aim at anything, just keep good form for 5 to 10 seconds. It's not a muscle building drill, though it does that a little. It's a drill to increase your control over the shot. Personally I hate this drill, but it's very effective. At first, you may only be able to hold good form for a couple of seconds. But as you progress, you will develop the control to be able to "... let the bow shoot itself".

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

Alright i just tried somethin. i grabbed my hunting bow to see if the peep might be off on my target bow. They are ezactly the same. I drew my huntin bow and held a pin on the spot and could keep it their without difficulty. Then i drew my target bow and could only keep the pin their for a few seconds and then it dropped. My huntin bow weighs about 3-4 lbs and my target bow is about 7. Would this be a strength issue? A form issue or what? Thanks!


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

it is partly a strength issue ,take an empty one gallon milk jug fill it about 1/3 with water put cap back on, hold it out like its your bow with your bow arm 10 times for 10 secords twice a day,as you get stronger add some water and maybe work slowly up to 20secords or more. it has helped me.now the other part you need to do buy this book called Core Archery by Larry Wise,it does not cost that much ,this will make you a much better archer read it and reread. good luck,Pete53


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Bow Predator said:


> Alright i just tried somethin. i grabbed my hunting bow to see if the peep might be off on my target bow. They are ezactly the same. I drew my huntin bow and held a pin on the spot and could keep it their without difficulty. Then i drew my target bow and could only keep the pin their for a few seconds and then it dropped. My huntin bow weighs about 3-4 lbs and my target bow is about 7. Would this be a strength issue? A form issue or what? Thanks!


This is something that is very difficult to accurately diagnose over the internet. You need a coach working with you one-on-one who can see exactly what you are doing and how you've built your shot. 

Allen


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## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

Pete53 said:


> it is partly a strength issue ,take an empty one gallon milk jug fill it about 1/3 with water put cap back on, hold it out like its your bow with your bow arm 10 times for 10 secords twice a day,as you get stronger add some water and maybe work slowly up to 20secords or more. it has helped me.now the other part you need to do buy this book called Core Archery by Larry Wise,it does not cost that much ,this will make you a much better archer read it and reread. good luck,Pete53


Alright I will check it out. Thanks!!


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## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

aread said:


> This is something that is very difficult to accurately diagnose over the internet. You need a coach working with you one-on-one who can see exactly what you are doing and how you've built your shot.
> 
> Allen


I have a coach and should begin within a few weeks, I just wanted other point of views.


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## fredrchris (Apr 15, 2010)

Great post. I am currently struggling with target panic and will have to incorporate these things into my practice.


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

Its got nothing to do with your strength.Its target panic your freezing and soon if you dont take necessary steps(stop targets and work out sequence on bail)you will start drive by shooting.you'll come down from the top and ur brain will start commanding u to shoot now when pin is near the x).You have a breakdown in your sequence.Listen to the shoe and learn bt,put in the work and good luck.


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

Practice shooting without aiming and aiming without shooting, Dont try to weld your pin where you want to hit, float your pin. practice every day on good form only stop when it breaks down might be 5 shots might be 55. Good form only


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## dawesy (Nov 11, 2005)

Im not a coach but i just had to post on this one. Ive had the same issues for years until recently i started researching Da white shoes posts. For my personality type his coaching has worked miracles for me. Ive gotten to the point where i really dont care to much where the sight is i focus on my aiming spot and trust that the sight will get there. If my focus is good and im relaxed its a good shot. Somebody once posted if you want your sight to quit moving stop looking at it. I realize this doesnt work for everyone but i strongly believe in the way he teaches its at least worth trying. I think so many archers get caught up in the eqipment game when the focus should be on our minds form and a consistent shot process. For me the hardest part was trusting, still workin on that part. I would like to send a huge Thank You to Zane for his help! Archery is fun again and im gaining more confidence everyday Chris


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## bfoot (Dec 30, 2009)

Bow Predator said:


> Lately i have been holding the pin below the target and its very difficult for me to get the pin up to the bullseye, and when im fatigued i cannot get it up. I dont know if its target panic or what. Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!


This is not uncommon with many bows. I have a different take than the suggestions you have had. I think it is a bow issue, especially since you can shoot your other bow without this problem. Look in Nuts&Bolts guide here on AT. It is free and he discusses how to adjust the string set to alleviate this problem. I do not remember exactly where in the guide (it is 150+ pages) but it is there.


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## bfoot (Dec 30, 2009)

Bow Predator said:


> Alright i just tried somethin. i grabbed my hunting bow to see if the peep might be off on my target bow. They are ezactly the same. I drew my huntin bow and held a pin on the spot and could keep it their without difficulty. Then i drew my target bow and could only keep the pin their for a few seconds and then it dropped. My huntin bow weighs about 3-4 lbs and my target bow is about 7. Would this be a strength issue? A form issue or what? Thanks!


As I mentioned I think it is a bow issue and hope your read Nuts&Bolts guide on this. My favorite bow of all time is the Bowtech Tribute. I had 8 mow pared down to 4. One of the reasons I love it is that it is one of the few bows that never has that problem of the bow"sticking" and not moving up to the bullseye. It just floats anywhere I look and other owners report the same thing. Until I read the guide I mentioned, I thought you could not change this but apparently you can by adjusting the string set. Look under the target shooting or form section in the guide.


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## bfoot (Dec 30, 2009)

da white shoe said:


> It sounds like you're experiencing a common problem that arises when archers try to consciously control their sight pin and their release at the same time. You can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time... no one can. You can begin your shot with the pin above the spot and let it float down, but it isn't really a cure... just a band-aid. It may help some to begin with, but when I went through this same thing, that's the first thing I tried... and it didn't take long for things to get progressively worse for me. For me, freezing below the spot was the first thing I noticed at the begining of my battle with target panic.
> 
> The best way I know of to beat it is... instead of watching your sight pin and forcing the release to go off when it gets to the target, you have to forget about the pin and direct your total concentration to the spot you want the arrow to go. Just let the pin float around the spot and slowly squeeze the trigger, while remaining totally focused on the spot you want to hit. An even better way to trigger the shot is to use back tension to make the release go off as a complete surprise. Relaxation is a big key to doing it this way. Only your back muscles are under any real tension when doing it this way. With the rest of your muscles relaxed as much as possible, the sight pin doesn't move very much at all.
> 
> ...


Do not apologize it is a Zen Master kind of thing. I have studied and practiced Zen Buddhism for over 30 years. One of my favorite books is a little paper back titled "Zen and the Art of Archery". Written in the 1930s, it follows the training of a German guy who wanted to study Zen. The teacher told him the Western mind was not right for the study of Zen and finding this guy was a target gun shooter suggested he try one of the Zen arts (flower arranging, poetry, tea ceremony, archery, drawing) and he decided to try Archery. The book follows his account of what happened, I read it long ago and before shooting a bow but found it so interesting and it centers on this issue of letting the bow shoot itself or getting yourself out of the equation when shooting. Another way to say it is developing muscle memory and not letting your ego interfere with shooting. All great athletes know about being "in the zone" and feeling their ability becoming effortless and being a passive watcher of their performance. 
Read the book you will really enjoy it whether you learn anything or not.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

its all good information , but your answer to it all is still in Larry Wise book Core Archery . and yes i have coached some people. My best student my son could and did shoot at state function shoots 57x - 60x 300`s by the age of 17.now he is in college likes girls and beer ! and maybe someday he will be back and he has a copy of larry wise book core archery too.good luck," this all will take you some time". Pete53


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## Gopherman (Aug 13, 2008)

There is a lot of great information in this post. I know that I will be taking a lot of bits and pieces away from it.

I have one bow that I can just not hold steady and hold right. Unfortunately, every time that I pull it back, I am thinking that I just can't shoot it as well as my other bows. My last ditch effort to try and make it work is by replacing the 70 pound limbs with 60 pound. I think that this will help me dump the thoughts that plague every shot.


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## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks guys! Im goin to try to find Core Archery and may order it pretty soon. And i'm goin to try some stuff Da White Shoe mentioned. Thanks again!


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## Jeff A M (Sep 13, 2011)

One of the better post I've seen on AT. Excellent guys we need to see this a lot more on AT.:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

JEFF


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Bow Predator said:


> Thanks guys! Im goin to try to find Core Archery and may order it pretty soon. And i'm goin to try some stuff Da White Shoe mentioned. Thanks again!


http://www.thirstypuppy.com/larrywise1

It's both a process and a commitment to the process. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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