# Hold VS. Forgiveness??



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

How many of Y'all have had a bow that held great, and shot it next to a bow that didnt hold as steady, but was more forgiving??...Been shooting the Apex side by side against the Pro Elite w/XT-3000 limbs, seems that the Apex just LOCKS on target, but if I flub a release, or torque the bow a little bit at the release,, VS. the Pro Elite, the Pro Elite seems a bit more forgiving....The ATA, and brace height, and draw weight of the bows is pretty close, (at least close enough), and I'm shooting the same arrows, same release, same Stab. an Easton "Black Max" longrod...The Hoyt has 5/8" more brace height, but is an inch shorter overall ...The Apex riser is 30.5", the Hoyt riser is approx. 23"...Does anyone think that a shorter riser/longer limb combo seems to make a bow more forgiving?...I noticed that alot of the Hoyt Pro's were shooting the Vantage/Vantage Elite's , but went back to the Pro Elites, and Ultra Elites by the end of this year's shooting season....Anyone else have any thoughts/comments on this??..or am I just mental?...Jim


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

The vantage elites and vantage pros have NO deflex in the risers. The forgiveness is less than nothing. I think they are the best looking bow I've ever seen, but what it takes to make a forgiving bow just isn't there for me. Some of these little short bows hold great, but just don't have what it takes to be forgiving especially with fingers and unless you have really great form, they will bite you in the butt everytime....


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

Jim , those are some thoughts the guys I shoot with are bouncing around as well , tho most of us are Hoyt boys with 1 M bow shooter

we have had one factory Hoyt shooter switch back to his Ultra Elite from his Vantage Elite 

One thing that the non parallel bows give you that , say the vantage series doesnt , is feed back on the shot , the long risered/parallel limb bows are very quiet on the shot , very stable ..... conversely the ultra , pro , and the new Contender series are going to let you know what you did right or did wrong with grip etc following the shot

forgiveness seems to be a very personal thing , some think that you have to have long AtA , some long risers , some shorter risers but still with longer AtA , some like round wheels ........ none of these are wrong ideas , 

I like the feed back that I got from my Ultra Tecs and Ulta Elites , and being a little different from most shooters , shot the reflex risered bows noticeably better than the d-flex bows ........ with all of those things said I have never had a bow shoot as well or as forgiving as my Vantage X8s .... they are better for me than my Vantage Elite is , comparing similar bows

sorry , got to rambling a bit there , but some of my thoughts anyway


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ia bhtr said:


> Jim , those are some thoughts the guys I shoot with are bouncing around as well , tho most of us are Hoyt boys with 1 M bow shooter
> 
> we have had one factory Hoyt shooter switch back to his Ultra Elite from his Vantage Elite
> 
> ...


...Ia bhtr.......The Vantage X8, and the Pro Vantage are for all practical purposes the same riser....length, defex/reflex angles, the main difference being the integral grip of the Vantage Pro/Elites, and the side plate/full grip on the Vantage X8...Maybe it's the longer XT-3000 limbs of the Vantage X8, also??.....I had a Vantage X7, and I really, REALLY wanted to like that bow...I had told the bow shoppe owner that "IF" Hoyt came out with a bow to match the specs of the Mathews Conquests, that I'd buy one.....Hoyt did, I bought it, and didnt like it....I shot my ProTec with XT-3000 limbs ALOT better....Maybe I shou,d have gotten the longer limbed Vantage X8?.....As for You shooting the reflex riser bows better than the deflex riser bows, (from Hoyt)....I've heard archers say this same thing...Having owned 2 Ultra Elites, and two Pro Elites, and an UltraTec, and a Pro Tec, I believe that I shoot the deflex riser Hoyt's better....I really liked the Vantage Pro I had, but didnt get along well with the grip....I shot it very well (for Me) one day, and couldnt shoot worth a dime the next....The grip never seemed consistent, or maybe I wasnt holding the bow consistent, but either way, I sold the bow.....Jager Archery makes a grip for those bows now, so maybe one day I'll give that bow another run.....Thanks for the reply........Take care......Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Unclegus said:


> The vantage elites and vantage pros have NO deflex in the risers. The forgiveness is less than nothing. I think they are the best looking bow I've ever seen, but what it takes to make a forgiving bow just isn't there for me. Some of these little short bows hold great, but just don't have what it takes to be forgiving especially with fingers and unless you have really great form, they will bite you in the butt everytime....


......Uncle gus, a fella and I were at the bow shoppe a while back, talking about the Vantage bows.....This fella thought that the Vanatge bows were a Deflex riser,,,,,,I said "Nope"....he didnt agree......I said....My old bow (Pro Vantage) is hanging out there on the range, go look at it, and see where the plane of the low point of the grip is, lined up with the limb pockets vertically....he looked at it, and said.."Huh!...I always thought that the bow was Deflexed, I reckon that it isnt"....The riser length is decieving to the eye, maybe??....I'd still think that that riser, with longer limbs would make a killer Finger bow, in the hands of a good Finger shooter...Which leaves Me out, but I know that one of the Finger shooters that posts on here,( FDL), shoots the fire out of His Vantage Elite.....Over-all, it seems that the quest for arrow speed (of which I'm guilty of) has made even a slightly reflexed riser seem deflexed, or at least a Neutral design.....Those Vantage bows sure shoot sweet, though!.....Take care, Unclegus!.......Jim


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

Harperman said:


> ...Ia bhtr.......The Vantage X8, and the Pro Vantage are for all practical purposes the same riser....length, defex/reflex angles, the main difference being the integral grip of the Vantage Pro/Elites, and the side plate/full grip on the Vantage X8...Maybe it's the longer XT-3000 limbs of the Vantage X8, also??.....I had a Vantage X7, and I really, REALLY wanted to like that bow...I had told the bow shoppe owner that "IF" Hoyt came out with a bow to match the specs of the Mathews Conquests, that I'd buy one.....Hoyt did, I bought it, and didnt like it....I shot my ProTec with XT-3000 limbs ALOT better....Maybe I shou,d have gotten the longer limbed Vantage X8?.....As for You shooting the reflex riser bows better than the deflex riser bows, (from Hoyt)....I've heard archers say this same thing...Having owned 2 Ultra Elites, and two Pro Elites, and an UltraTec, and a Pro Tec, I believe that I shoot the deflex riser Hoyt's better....I really liked the Vantage Pro I had, but didnt get along well with the grip....I shot it very well (for Me) one day, and couldnt shoot worth a dime the next....The grip never seemed consistent, or maybe I wasnt holding the bow consistent, but either way, I sold the bow.....Jager Archery makes a grip for those bows now, so maybe one day I'll give that bow another run.....Thanks for the reply........Take care......Jim


Jim , yep , I think the main reason in me liking the X8 better than my Vantage Elite is the grip , the X8 fits perect everytime , the Vantage Elite fits pefect most of the time ....... riser geometry is virtually identical like u say , in the past I liked my ultra elites better than my ultra tecs , but the grip was the same , not sure if the stiffer riser ads to the difference or not , mostly the difference in the grip I think


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Harperman said:


> ...Ia bhtr.......The Vantage X8, and the Pro Vantage are for all practical purposes the same riser....length, defex/reflex angles, the main difference being the integral grip of the Vantage Pro/Elites, and the side plate/full grip on the Vantage X8...Maybe it's the longer XT-3000 limbs of the Vantage X8, also??.....I had a Vantage X7, and I really, REALLY wanted to like that bow...I had told the bow shoppe owner that "IF" Hoyt came out with a bow to match the specs of the Mathews Conquests, that I'd buy one.....Hoyt did, I bought it, and didnt like it....I shot my ProTec with XT-3000 limbs ALOT better....Maybe I shou,d have gotten the longer limbed Vantage X8?.....As for You shooting the reflex riser bows better than the deflex riser bows, (from Hoyt)....I've heard archers say this same thing...Having owned 2 Ultra Elites, and two Pro Elites, and an UltraTec, and a Pro Tec, I believe that I shoot the deflex riser Hoyt's better....I really liked the Vantage Pro I had, but didnt get along well with the grip....I shot it very well (for Me) one day, and couldnt shoot worth a dime the next....The grip never seemed consistent, or maybe I wasnt holding the bow consistent, but either way, I sold the bow.....Jager Archery makes a grip for those bows now, so maybe one day I'll give that bow another run.....Thanks for the reply........Take care......Jim


Thank you. I was really thinking hard about buying a Vantge LTD till I read this. Sometimes the "urge" gets in the way of common sense... I'll just stick with the Barneys....If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just a momentary lapse of reason.......


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

ia bhtr said:


> Jim , those are some thoughts the guys I shoot with are bouncing around as well , tho most of us are Hoyt boys with 1 M bow shooter
> 
> we have had one factory Hoyt shooter switch back to his Ultra Elite from his Vantage Elite
> 
> ...


Yes Me too...... Thats why I have a parallel bow for hunting and standard for 3d's. Its all about feed back to me. But for hunting I want the smoothes quite bow I can get to shoot good groups out to 45 yards. I am thinking of putting 2000 or 3000 limbs on my vectrix xl, something like a 38pro with more BH? Just for fun, I have the parts. Just have to come up with strings. dd


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Double-D...The XT-2000 limbs would still make for a HUGE brace height...Probably close to 9", maybe??....I'd think that XT-1000 limbs might work out pretty well, probably end up with approx. 8" brace, and somewhere in the 38" A-T-A range?...Good Luck with it, if You do this Frankenbow project, let US know how it works out....Take Care.......Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Franken bow is right. I even have some old Jennings split airspeed limbs that are about 1000 limb lenght and tons of Black Knight dual cams. I have C2 cams, Cam.5, spiral and Z3. Not sure whats the best choice? I even think I have a couple set of wheels. But I want it to be in the 40-42" range with 8-9 BH and pretty good speed. LOL. See here in AZ we have alot of Bowman bows with all kind of options like Barney's. It should hold like a dream and forgive me for every bad shot I make. lol. dd


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Franken bow is right. I even have some old Jennings split airspeed limbs that are about 1000 limb lenght and tons of Black Knight dual cams. I have C2 cams, Cam.5, spiral and Z3. Not sure whats the best choice? I even think I have a couple set of wheels. But I want it to be in the 40-42" range with 8-9 BH and pretty good speed. LOL. See here in AZ we have alot of Bowman bows with all kind of options like Barney's. It should hold like a dream and forgive me for every bad shot I make. lol. dd


.........Black Knight Dually's huh??..Are those kinda-sorta like Hatchet cams??...I wonder how those would work on a Martin Scepter, with 17" Elite limbs?....I could make some pigtails, machine some splitters at work, and do a Hatchet cam shoot-through.....L.O.L....Actually, I'm headed out to the garage in a bit, to put my Fury X cams on the Barney, so that I can shoot it until I get my Tri Star's from Mr. Barnsdale...I thought about putting some Vector 5 PSE wheels on the Barney, but I dont have the yoke cables that I need....Plus, I would need to make the cable splitters and Pig tails....I have recently been asking myself why in the world I'm messing around with all this , when I have a perfectly good Martin Scepter, and an even better shooting Hoyt Pro Elite.....I reckon that the answer is because it's COLD outside, and 3-D season is a couple months away....Plus, I'm looking for a bow that shoots good, has a soft back wall to shoot with a clicker,, and enough arrow speed to satisfy my needs...If I find the right size Hatchet cams, I could mount the Martin Elite limbs back onto the Rev. Triumph riser, and it would be the ticket....Plus, putting together Frankenbows is fun....I'm still contemplating mounting an old set of Hoyt recurve limbs on my Scepter II riser....Might make a great 3-D bow, and the I.B.O. says that I can use a Clicker in Recurve Unaided class this year...Beats the heck out of paying $500.00 for a 23" OLY. target riser....L.O.L.....Jim P.S...P.M. me sometime, and I'll tell You some lies about the last Frankenbow that I put together.....L.O.L.....


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

pm sent! dd


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Double-D!....Got the P.M.....On my way to the bow shoppe, Indoor 3-D this evening.....I'll holler at 'Ya tonight.....Thanks!.......Jim


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

An Apex really does hold well. I think it's a combination of weight (it's a 5# bow), balance and grip (never thought I could love a cold metal grip). The cam feels really different from the Hoyt cams I've tried. Probably the best shooting bow I currently own is a 2007 Hoyt UltraElite with XT3500 limbs. It has a 42" ATA and holds nearly as well as an Apex, depending on stabilizer setup. I have a Vantage X8 as well and it's super shooter but some days I shoot it like a champ and other days not so well.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

AKRuss said:


> An Apex really does hold well. I think it's a combination of weight (it's a 5# bow), balance and grip (never thought I could love a cold metal grip). The cam feels really different from the Hoyt cams I've tried. Probably the best shooting bow I currently own is a 2007 Hoyt UltraElite with XT3500 limbs. It has a 42" ATA and holds nearly as well as an Apex, depending on stabilizer setup. I have a Vantage X8 as well and it's super shooter but some days I shoot it like a champ and other days not so well.


......AKRuss...If I could get an Apex riser/limbs, with a Hoyt 2 cam set up for the eccentrics, THAT would be something...I think that the Apex grip is the best there is, and the Apex just seems to sit where You aim it...I did some string/cable twisting on my Pro Elite this weekend, It's getting close to the Apex for "Holding" qualities...Seems that I've been shortening my draw length little by little, and things are getting better....Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Jim, be careful with shorting your bow to fast. I jump mine down a 1/2" on the second day of a marked 3d's and shot really bad. I thought it felt too long. Couldn't hold very well at all. So I jump it up 1/4" and it hold 100% better. Very fine line there for me. dd


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

It's a whole lot easier to shoot a short draw than one too long, but as little as 1/8" in what you should be shooting can mess you up...especially on a cam bow.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Unclegus said:


> It's a whole lot easier to shoot a short draw than one too long, but as little as 1/8" in what you should be shooting can mess you up...especially on a cam bow.


Gus, you got that right. I have to measure my bow to the grip. I have a string thats marked and I make sure I pull it to the grip at full draw. It mazes me how it changes the way the bow holds. I think cam timing may effect the forgiveness. Because a fellow archery was shooting some good groups at the range friday and I happen to notice that his top cam was late, by 1-3 twists and he said it shoots best for him that way? dd


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Gus, you got that right. I have to measure my bow to the grip. I have a string thats marked and I make sure I pull it to the grip at full draw. It mazes me how it changes the way the bow holds. I think cam timing may effect the forgiveness. Because a fellow archery was shooting some good groups at the range friday and I happen to notice that his top cam was late, by 1-3 twists and he said it shoots best for him that way? dd


........Alot of the Hoyt shooters around here shoot the top cam a bit late, claim that it makes the arrow clear the rest cleaner??.it makes the back wall mushy for me, if I'm shooting a Hook...I time my Hoyt's so that the top cam stops a tick sooner....Both with Fingers, and a Hook....How the bow "Holds", cam timing, etc..etc. can all be related back to Tiller tuning also...On a Hoyt with Cam 1/2 cams, it seems to make a difference how much an Archer "Heels" the grip...I prefer to shoot with a bit of Heel in the bow, not alot,. just a bit, and Find that if I time the Cam 1/2's even , any little bit of Heel in the grip will cause the arrow to shoot high, or cause the bow to rock back at the shot...Tiller tuning could help this, but then the cams might (probably) will need re-timed....Jim


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Next Time I was around this guy, I'd look to see if his hand position was a little funny...


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