# Stabilization, float pattern and lasers



## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Float pattern has a lot to do with adjusting your stabilization system and weights.

Attaching a laser can help identify this float pattern I hear.

What adjustments should be made depending on the patten though? 


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

Good question.
I've always added weight to the back if the front wants to dip, or take weight off the front if it feels too heavy.
As far as what solves the bow to want to float side to side........I still struggle with this so I am all ears.  I add weight to one side or the other to get the bow to level easier, but if the bow is level and it still wants to drift.......I don't know.


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Lien2 said:


> Good question.
> I've always added weight to the back if the front wants to dip, or take weight off the front if it feels too heavy.
> As far as what solves the bow to want to float side to side........I still struggle with this so I am all ears.  I add weight to one side or the other to get the bow to level easier, but if the bow is level and it still wants to drift.......I don't know.


That has pretty much been my philosophy too but at some point somewhere I feel like I read something about what your float pattern can tell you about the bow.

Long fluid motions=

Short choppy movements=

Left and right movements=

Up and down movements=


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

The videos by George "Griv" Ryals explains this very well. I believe you may also be able to find an article he wrote on stabilizers if you use the search function or on Archery Learning Center.com


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

There is a good thread on this on the Doinker forum. I think it was discussed on here a week or so ago. Maybe someone can link one of them....


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

from the doinker forum for the ones that have never read it

Everyones bow combined with their bodies build will be different, as what works for them will be as well. The roll of any stabilizer is to give resistance to Rotation/Movement so that when you come back to your anchor your sight picture settles as quickly as possible and then allows you to hold strong on the target. When the perfect combo is found you will be able to easily control your small movements with out over compensating and bouncing back in fourth....almost like slowing down the speed on your computers mouse. A lot of archers use to think that a bow is balanced perfect when the bow is not drawn and balancing perfect Left to Right and Front to back so that your bubble is dead level.....This is in fact a Perfect balance but totally not what you want for holding steady as it will easily pivot in your hand when back at draw. This will make it very hard for you to make little movements without over compensate. So what needs to be done is to give the bows balance a direction, an imperfect balance will give resistance to Rotation/Movement and when back at draw will not pivot easily in your hand, allowing you to make the miner adjustments needed easily to find the center of the target and hold steady on there. The easiest way to accomplish this is with just one sidebar, giving the bows balance a direction.
Now the first thing you want to do is get the bows balance to a point where it is easy to find the target and then hold on the spot, we will worry about the bubble on your sight later. First we need a neutral starting point, move your side bar in as close to the string as possible without having string clearance issues and have it running in aline with you front bars same height. This is more than likely will be in your bodies way....especially with 12-15" bars. Start off with like 4oz on your front bar and 6oz on your back bar....good starting point. This bar position for most peoples body and bow combined is close to perfect for a lot of people. Now when back at anchor see what your sight picture is doing, moving Left to Right....back and forth, you need to do One of Two things...move the bar out one click and maybe add .5-1oz. Shoot and see what it does, not right......still really moving then move one more click out and maybe add some weight. You must make sure to move it very little at a time as we are really fine tuning the way our controlling muscles react to the different weight and balance. If the Sight picture is moving Up and Down then you need to do One of Two things.....Add Weight and or lower the sidebar one click.....repeat this until it holds steady.
Now lets say you are happy with the way you are approaching the target but you seem to be holding on the bottom of the spot....and every time you try to lift it, you just end up moving too much. If this happens then you would want to add a weight on the Sidebar and maybe even take a weight off the front. The opposite applies when you are having a hard time coming down on the target....and you just sit on top of the spot, if this is the case you will want to either add .5-1oz to the front or take it off the sidebar. 
Lets say you have now found the perfect combo but when you look at your bubble it's a little high on the opposing side of your sidebar.....this is where we have to find the sweet spot between what allows you to hold good and level your bubble at the same time. You can either bring that sidebar back in towards the string one click at a time or play with thew weights until you not only hold strong but you have a level bubble. Sometimes its just really hard to have both with just the sidebar......this is where a V-Bar would come into play. Now the issue with V-bars for most archers is that they set them up too close to a perfect balance and they are not giving their bows balance a direction like it needs. This can be overcome by adding more weight to your bow arm side then on the other or even use a shorter bar on the same side as your sight and a little less weight. Sometimes the side bar on the same side of your sight is not even needed and just some weight on the mount on that side is enough to level the bubble. I have set people up with a 15" sidebar on the bow arm side in a 10 degree down/like 20 out and on the other side 10" out with very little weight pointed out like 40 degrees. I have to be honest, fixed mounts are OK and you can make them work by playing with different length bars and different weights but it's the Fully Adjustable mounts that really allow you to fine tune just perfect for you and your bows geometry. Everyone is built different and applies different hand pressure to the bow, combine this with all the different bows geometries and you get something that formulas are really hard to tune by. Really get a good adjustable mount as this is one of the most important parts on your bow as it truly acts like the Steering Wheel for your bows balance!

I would use our Standard AOSM or AVBM for archers that don't like a lot of weight on their bars.....anything under 12oz. Use the Platinum mounts for anything over 12oz and use the Platinum Matrix for odd risers like the Hoyt Carbon Matrix or some of PSE's risers

Shoot Straight......Be Stable.....Doink On!!!


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## ArrowStar1 (Jun 10, 2008)

Good information here.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

http://archerylearningcenter.archerylive.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=92 great article on stabs and, target panic.


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Awesome info. And what about people using lasers? Does it help? Sometimes it's hard to nail down a specific float pattern, but if there is a laser an objective person can see it.

Attach to stabilizer? Sight? Riser?


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Ttt


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

for later


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Cdpkook132 said:


> That has pretty much been my philosophy too but at some point somewhere I feel like I read something about what your float pattern can tell you about the bow.
> 
> Long fluid motions=
> 
> ...



Hello Cdpkook132:

Very simple.

Sight pin / scope dot is moving in LONG, SLOW movements,
say the pin is moving between the LEFT and RIGHT edges of the 8-ring on the Vegas Target Face.

ASSUMING you have excellent shooting posture, and say we are talking someone who can shoot on average, 280-290 scores
on the Vegas Target Face...(a shooter who has the DL module correct, and PROPER posture....NOT someone who is 2-inches too long on DL)..

then,
we need to tighten up the DL say 1/32nd of an inch. Just ADD twists to the bowstring (top and bottom to keep the peep sight balanced).



Sight pin / scope dot is moving in a VERY TIGHT pattern...really herky jerky...dancing like a drop of water on a hot frying pan,
say the pin / scope dot is buzzing around the x-ring image on a 6X scope lens,
and you are nailing the x-ring/10-ring on the VEGAS target face,
but get the occasional flier arrow all the way out to the 7-ring (wild example, but you get the idea).

You are pulling HARD into the wall, a VERY AGGRESSIVE SHOT.....this really only applies to the 290 Vegas Target shooter,
who has the CORRECT DL module installed, and needs to SUPER TUNE the DL. 

*If you are shooting say 200 to 220 scores, and have the DL 1.5-inches too long, this will not work for you.*

So, if you are shooting HIGH x-counts, but have the unexplained flier arrow missing 2 to 3 rings off the x-ring on the RARE occasion...

simple fix,
just UNTWIST the bowstring a half twist or so at BOTH ends of the bowstring.



So,
tweak the bowstring twists to steady up the SIGHT PICTURE, and tighten up the SIGHT PIN/SCOPE DOT float pattern.


Now,
we analyze ARROW GROUP SHAPES. 


Maybe you are the AIM AIM AIM type shooter.
Maybe you are the FORM FORM FROM type shooter.

To me,
doesn't matter.

I only care about READING THE TARGET face,
analyzing the HOLE PATTERN.

Put up a FRESH target face,
and just by looking at 30 holes on a single Vegas Spot
(shoot 1 arrow, go pull the arrow, shoot another SINGLE arrow, go pull it....do this 30 times)
and I can figure out what you need to adjust.


So,
let's go over the basics, shall we?

PANCAKE GROUP.
FLAT
LINE of HOLES....flat and level like the kitchen table.

MOST holes are in the 9-10 ring,
but
ALL the fliers (arrow holes) are strung out to the LEFT side.
MOST misses are at 9-o'clock.

The LINE of HOLES is say two arrow diameters TALL.
(this is an EXTREME example, but you folks will get the idea).

WE SUPER TUNE arrow groups in TWO directions.

FIRST we fix the arrow groups to get them as SKINNY as possible, left to right.


IF YOU ONLY EXPERIENCE left misses....
and your arrow groups are FLAT as a PANCAKE

and we are talking the single axis offset mount (you can only swing the side bar like a door....you can swing TOWARDS the bowstring...you can swing AWAY from the string)


so,
we FIX LEFT misses, by SWINGING THE OFFSET MOUNT, just ONE CLICK (I have the Doinker Platinum Plus single axis offset mount)....AWAY from the bowstring.

You should see improvement,
and the LEFT MISSES will reduce.

So,
SWING THE OFFSET MOUNT, another ONE CLICK away from the bowstring.

Keep doing this,
until you have ALL your arrows as SKINNY as possible, in the LEFT - to - RIGHT direction.

That simple.



Let's say you have the TELEPHONE POLE GROUP SHAPE.

Arrow groups are only two arrow diameters wide.
Arrow groups are 4 RINGS TALL, however.
Super skinny ARROW GROUPS, that run from the x-ring ALL THE WAY UP to the 7 ring.


BOW IS TOO REAR HEAVY.
So,
ONE FIX = ADD MORE WEIGHT to the front stabilizer....if you have the single axis (door hinge only) offset mount.

ANOTHER FIX = SWING the offset mount DOWN TOWARDS THE FLOOR (only works if you have the two axis offset mount)....like a pendulum...ROTATE ONE CLICK DOWN.
When you ROTATE the two axis offset mount, when you SWING THE offset mount *DOWN towards the floor*, you make the bow MORE FRONT HEAVY.


*So,
if your ARROW GROUPS are a TELEPHONE POLE, and your misses are mostly in the 12-o'clock direction (MISSING HIGH),
gotta shift the FOC of your bow stabilizer system, in the MORE FRONT HEAVY direction.*


*So,
if your ARROW GROUPS are a TELEPHONE POLE, and your misses are mostly in the 6-o'clock direction (MISSING LOW),
gotta shift the FOC of your bow stabilizer system, in the LESS FRONT HEAVY direction.*

Easy.

If you have that 2-axis offset mount,
YOU are going to SWING THE OFFSET MOUNT,
UP away from the floor...
you are facing your bow, side stabilizer is between you and the bow,
you are swinging the offset mount counter-clockwise, like turning a deadbolt key.


No secrets.
No special handshake, password.
No fees.
No club.
No voodoo magic.

Analyze your hole pattern, on a fresh target face,
shooting 1 ARROW at a time...after you shoot the 1 arrow, go get it,
and start up your shot routine again.

This FORCES patience.
This FORCES you to focus on your shot routine,
cuz you had to spend the time to walk 20 yards, and go get that single arrow.

Do this 30 times,
and you will have 30 arrow holes in the target face.

IF you KNOW you shot a bad shot,
then mark that arrow hole,
and IGNORE that arrow hole.

Then,
analyze the HOLE pattern ONLY for the GOOD shots.

Then,
pick a direction to fix.

IF YOU WANT to fix the horizontal misses,
then,
SWING the offset bar, like a table, in the HORIZONTAL direction, 
either TOWARDS the bowstring
or
AWAY from the bowstring...

adjusting the swing angle in the horizontal change direction....the end of the side bar moves in a level line.

HORIZONTAL misses....tweak in the HORIZONTAL swing direction on the side bar...pretend the side bar is sitting on a coffee table, and change the swing angle...like a lazy susan turntable.


When you FIX your horizontal misses (make the arrow group as skinny as possible, left to right)...

then,
move on to FIX your vertical misses (make the arrow group as FLAT as possible...up-down direction...

VERTICAL misses...tweak in the VERTICAL DIRECTION of the side bar...pretend the side bar is a yo-yo....and swing the side bar hinge so the weight swings TOWARDS the floor or AWAY from the floor.....like the swing sets on the playground for kids.


AIM however you like.
HOLD however you like.
SHOOT your form and don't aim...

Whatever you like to do.


In the end,
we ALL just shoot the arrow,
and
have single axis adjustable offset mounts (door hinge)

or

we have a double adjustable knuckle offset mount,
and can change the swing angle like a lazy susan
and
can change the swing angle like the swing sets at the playground.


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

N&B - if you ever come to NY - please PM me..I could use some help!


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks nuts and bolts! I will give it a try and analyze my target face. I also got the pm. Thanks again!


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

great great info


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## PAFD ARCHER (Jan 31, 2008)

very good info here


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Subscribed


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## nate121080 (Sep 3, 2006)

Subscribed. Awesome explanations nuts&bolts


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## IL 88 (Aug 15, 2007)

Good thread :thumbs_up


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## Edsel (Oct 1, 2011)

darton3d said:


> The videos by George "Griv" Ryals explains this very well. I believe you may also be able to find an article he wrote on stabilizers if you use the search function or on Archery Learning Center.com


http://www.bronte-archers.org.uk/Wordpress/wp-content/uploads/archery_articles/stabilisersgriv.pdf


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## snewton_89 (Jan 21, 2010)

Good read for later.


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## outdoorkid1 (Nov 20, 2010)

awesome thread


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

Where was this thread earlier tonight during my indoor league.


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

wow i just read that artical by griv, did the math he had in there and it is dead on to what my setup is to within a half oz. having that info would have made it ALOT easier


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## moecarama (May 17, 2005)

gonna save this thread:0


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks for all the information. It looks like the next piece of archery equipment that I need is an adjustable knuckle for the side stabilizer.


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## Anth (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks for all the great info, without the internet, people willing to share knowledge and this forum how would a newb like me find all this great advice. 
The stuff i learn on this forum in my first year of archery, has put me years ahead of were i would have been without.
Thank you.


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## DXTCLUE (Apr 4, 2010)

Everyone should read this one. :thumbs_up


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> Thanks for all the information. It looks like the next piece of archery equipment that I need is an adjustable knuckle for the side stabilizer.


Hello jim p:

The adjustable knuckle, at least in my opinion, 
is the MOST important piece of the stabilization system.

I just have the single adjustment (door hinge style) knuckle.

If you can swing the price,
the two adjustment knuckle opens up a LOT of options...

a) door hinge angle adjustment
and
b) pendulum angle adjustment


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## mrb1982 (Feb 16, 2009)

If you shoot just the door hinge style, but can turn it up and down around the bold could that technically work the same way?


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## Madlaz (Jul 4, 2008)

Is there a way you could show us a picture of the single and double knuckle or where to find info on these.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mrb1982 said:


> If you shoot just the door hinge style, but can turn it up and down around the bold could that technically work the same way?


Nope.

The single axis knuckle really is just a door hinge,
or works like a door hinge.

A door hinge will change the swing angle, like a lazy susan in your kitchen cabinet
or on a dining table.

So,
the single axis door hinge, will help you with left-right misses (horizontal misses),
when your side bar is LEVEL.


A double axis knuckle,
has a SECOND, hinge that is vertical
and allows the assembly to swing in a vertical arc,
JUST like the swing sets at the playground,
just like the pendulum on a grandfather clock.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Madlaz said:


> Is there a way you could show us a picture of the single and double knuckle or where to find info on these.


Here you go Madlaz.










The one on the left is the single axis, "door hinge" style.

You can put this version on your kitchen table
and loosen the mushroom bolt
and the arm will swing like a lazy susan.

The arm has a ridged washer,
so you can "CLICK" adjust the angle,
one CLICK adjustment at a time.

Very handy.



The other version,
the 2 axis version,
can swing in the horizontal direction, like a lazy susan
AND
when you hold it off the edge of your kitchen table,
it can rotate like an airplane propellor...

notice the TWO mushroom bolts,
cuz it has a swinging motion (flat on a table - lazy susan)
and
cuz it has a swinging motion (vertical, like a propellor or the swing sets at the playground).


The 2 axis version truly is the way to go,
for complete adjustability.


Tweak the lazy susan swing angle, to fix your left-right misses.

Tweak the propellor swing angle - (swing the arm down vertically towards the floor...10 degrees negative...20 degrees negative..45 degrees negative...just like the front stabilizer)
to fix your high-low misses.

Since the Vegas shoot, lots of folks are asking about the 10 degree quick dis-connect for the front stabilizer.

Well,
with the 2 axis knuckle for the side bar,
you can also do a NEGATIVE angle for the side bar.


AOSM = Adjustable Offset Mount....(this is the "door hinge" style from Doinker).

FAOSM = FULLY adjustable Offset Mount...(this is what I call the double knuckle from Doinker).


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## ProtecMan (Apr 14, 2003)

nate121080 said:


> Subscribed. Awesome explanations nuts&bolts


X2 Always have a good way of explaining things!


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## Madlaz (Jul 4, 2008)

Thanks Alan for the pictures and info guess a got to start saving some money to get one of those.Laz


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## erictski (May 20, 2009)

Ttt for later


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Up so others can see it


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

very good info ( N&B ) YOUR THE MAN !!:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## devin1 (Oct 2, 2010)

Good info


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## blademan (May 8, 2005)

for later


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## PAFD ARCHER (Jan 31, 2008)

back up


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

With all the stabilizer threads popping up, we'll get this one back near the top.


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

colo_dually said:


> With all the stabilizer threads popping up, we'll get this one back near the top.


Good call forgot about thread


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

wow good stuff


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## Anth (Apr 22, 2011)

whats the price Ta


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

....N&B

THE ARCHERY WHISPERER!!!!!


thank you....:thumbs_up


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## Xtremeracing (Jul 24, 2011)

awesome info :thumbs_up subscribed~!


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

Wow zombie thread back from the dead


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

tagged for future use, lots of good info here again


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

tag for later


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## c5mrr270 (Mar 3, 2009)

Subscribed


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Great info, and glad I found it. Struggling with a set up of my own. Thanks N&B's.


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## open#5 (Jul 24, 2006)

Keeper..


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## Beentown (May 14, 2006)

Oldie but goodie!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I am fine tuning my Supra Max right now. So far I have a 30" front bar with 4oz and a 12" side bar with 12oz and my holding weight at full draw is 19.6#


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## Bossmoss (Aug 25, 2005)

for later


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## Top_Pin_Archery (Feb 16, 2012)

Good info


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## mskecker (Feb 12, 2010)

Marked for later


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

Xed


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

N&B when adjusting dl for optimal sight picture what should have on for stab weight and position? Or should you do this barebow?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

WhitBri said:


> N&B when adjusting dl for optimal sight picture what should have on for stab weight and position? Or should you do this barebow?


Have everything installed on your bow.

Then,
start shooting groups
and see what gives you the best groups.

Tweaking draw length,
half a twist at at time (adjusting the bowstring twists)
will have an effect on the width of your groups (how wide your groups at left to right).

Tweaking the twists in the bowstring,
affects your horizontal nock travel...

cuz we are fine tuning the alignment
of your release side forearm...the follow through reaction,
when the release fires.


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

whitbri said:


> n&b when adjusting dl for optimal sight picture what should have on for stab weight and position? Or should you do this barebow?


x2.


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## fresnohunter (Jul 6, 2010)

tagged


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Great bump. :thumbs_up


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## vftcandy (Nov 6, 2009)

Just made some adjustments, what a difference already!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

For a later read


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

great info


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## lunk2002 (Jul 22, 2006)

Great stuff, nuts&bolts never ceases to amaze me.


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

Good thread!!! Saved for Later....


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

WhitBri said:


> N&B when adjusting dl for optimal sight picture what should have on for stab weight and position? Or should you do this barebow?


All adjustments should be made while the bow is setup. What bars and lengths are you running now? How much weight are you running on them?

I've found that on my 30" main on a 15 degree down I tend to run 6-10 ounces depending on the day. So lets say I run 6oz up front today, I will run five 3oz weights on my side bar that I have door hinge and vertically tuned as well. The more precise adjustments that you make to fine tune your door swing angle, your left/right misses will become smaller in distance away from the X


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Just sitting around after rc surgery and going through great threads and ttt for them.


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## rook-e (Jun 18, 2012)

Good info in this thread!


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## InjunJR (Jul 25, 2011)

No brainer subscribed


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## wvdeerhntr (Dec 21, 2008)

I would love to try some of this.. I am really intersted in fine tuning my draw length seems most shops around here just throw on the mods that say they are correct and you go


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Cdpkook132:
> 
> Very simple.
> 
> ...


Here's a 30 shot pattern shot at 20 yards on a 35cm field face. The sight was not adjusted throughout the test and I shoot left handed. I've circled the main pattern as more than 50% of the 30 arrows went there. My tendency is to have left flyers at the closer ranges and not as much on the long shots. Aside from a sight adjustment, what can I assume from this pattern?


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

so,
we FIX LEFT misses, by SWINGING THE OFFSET MOUNT, just ONE CLICK (I have the Doinker Platinum Plus single axis offset mount)....AWAY from the bowstring.

You should see improvement,
and the LEFT MISSES will reduce.


Is this what you mean N&B?


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

subscribe


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ILOVE3D said:


> so,
> we FIX LEFT misses, by SWINGING THE OFFSET MOUNT, just ONE CLICK (I have the Doinker Platinum Plus single axis offset mount)....AWAY from the bowstring.
> 
> You should see improvement,
> ...


Yes,
for a RIGHT HANDED shooter.

Side rod on the LEFT SIDE.

SWING the side rod,
like a door on a hinge,
swing the side rod, ONE CLICK adjustment at a time,
away from the bowstring,
the side rod is moving in a CLOCKWISE direction,
away from the string,
ONE CLICK at a time,
and see what happens.


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

ttt


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

for me at 20 yards misses on right side of spot and at 50 yards misses left side of spot 

that is left hand


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

redman said:


> for me at 20 yards misses on right side of spot and at 50 yards misses left side of spot
> 
> that is left hand


Check your 3rd axis on your sight, at full draw.

Confirm you are centering your bubble on your sight,
for each shot,
AFTER you check 3rd axis on your sight, when at full draw.

Shoot groups at 20 yards, and take a photo.
Shoot groups at 30 yards, and take a photo.
Shoot groups at 40 yards, and take a photo.
Shoot groups at 50 yards, and take a photo.

I'd like to see how the groups change in shape,
and how the size of the groups change
and how the point of impact changes (primary group and the fliers).


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## al302852 (Jun 13, 2007)

Tagged!!


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## GTOJoe (Mar 9, 2009)

Subscribed for later.


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## jdggibson2011 (Dec 21, 2011)

Great Thread


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## jhumble123 (Apr 9, 2013)

Great info here.


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## Taco_seasoning (Apr 24, 2013)

Subbed


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> Yes,
> for a RIGHT HANDED shooter.
> 
> Side rod on the LEFT SIDE.
> ...


But for a lefthanded shooter missing left you move the side bar toward the string correct? The opposite of a righty missing left?


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Just went to garage to play with this.

I never could get my oin to slow as much as i liked. A few at ASA this weekend commented it looked like i was a bunch to short on draw length.

Added half inch and put blade rest. I took 1.5oz off front when i straightened arm as ut felt way too front heavy.

Dual axis side mount....

















I shot same arrow all 30 shots. I shot 3 dots to try and save it from becoming one shot out mess.



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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

cenochs said:


> But for a lefthanded shooter missing left you move the side bar toward the string correct? The opposite of a righty missing left?


LEft missing left,
shorten the draw length.

Tune your bow
so ALL misses are only to the RIGHT.

Then,
with ALL misses to the RIGHT
for a left handed shooter,
then,
swing the side rod away from the bow string.


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## arrow-n-bucks (Mar 22, 2007)

Great thread! I see some tuning in my future!


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

Tagged for later reference. Thanks


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

some great discussions about stabs lately


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

30 arrows - one at a time - same arrow each time. Standing on piece of tape. Shot at shoulder height.

I was hitting left from the beginning. Wasnt going to adjust sight as I interpreted the entire ordeal to be more about group rather than exact spot where it hit.

One thing I should have done is moved my sight so the arrow hit off the dot maybe - kept getting sucked into the hole.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Alright this one was a little different. First thing in morning, 4 practice/warm ups and let them fly.

I could tell I wasnt holding near as well and made one HORRIBLE shot.

First time I Missed an X completely at 10 yards in a long time......just was UGLY 

Def wasnt holding as well this morning, was about 34 degrees in my garage, and right out of bed.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

subscribed...


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Finally got to do 30 shot game with only one arrow today at 20 yds.

Shot a 3d course prior. Was with my 3d bow not spot bow shooting GT 22s

















Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## bowtecha (Feb 16, 2010)

EXTREMELY GREAT READ, really like the info here


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

To the OP. 
I'm not sure it's done anymore but I heard some pros and coaches that conduct shooting schools use lasers to see what the float pattern is on their students... then make adjustments. Can't see why it wouldn't work? It would actually be a great aid to help someone who can't physically get to a coach. Just video that float pattern and post or send it to them... 
Next best thing to being there...


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Absolutely!

However- i suggest making sure YOU can not see the laser in your sight picture.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

what lasers are available out there for such purposes?


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## bfelver (May 13, 2012)

Dado said:


> what lasers are available out there for such purposes?


Bstinger sells one on there website


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## Armed_AL (Jun 8, 2012)

ttt


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, the research showed how the top shooters range of float went from moving around in the bulls-eye to essentially dead still, in the X, as the shooter loaded up just before the shot broke. the laser was focused on a target next to the one being shot at, so the shooter didn't see the laser's movement in his aiming view. extremely good for determining the exactly right draw length, if you can do it.


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## locusthill1831 (Apr 3, 2010)

Tagged


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

fortunebrass said:


> Hello Everybody.
> 
> I am New Here From Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers Company. We Provide Custom Word Wide Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers service as per client requirement. All your comment about Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers are welcome.
> 
> Thanks.


LOL NB is so popular the bots are even searching him out now.


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## Armed_AL (Jun 8, 2012)

fortunebrass said:


> Hello Everybody.
> 
> I am New Here From Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers Company. We Provide Custom Word Wide Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers service as per client requirement. All your comment about Stainless Steel Nuts Bolts Manufacturers are welcome.
> 
> Thanks.


Ace hardware also has stainless nuts and bolts but you don't see them tread jacking about it.


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## Lungbustah (Oct 4, 2010)

Tagged for later. Waiting for my double knuckle to come in


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

For later


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## aljburk (Jan 6, 2007)

tag


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## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

up top


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

ron w said:


> yup, the research showed how the top shooters range of float went from moving around in the bulls-eye to essentially dead still, in the X, as the shooter loaded up just before the shot broke. the laser was focused on a target next to the one being shot at, so the shooter didn't see the laser's movement in his aiming view. extremely good for determining the exactly right draw length, if you can do it.


Correct draw length is important, but just one part of an overall optimum setup. There is another aspect of the setup that will yield a much more stable float pattern, but is often ignored by most shooters. When the number is right, you will be blown away by the hold. I have seen posts where people touch on this aspect, but never define it. I have been setting customers and shooting staff up according to what I believe to be a great formula and seen immediate, and major, differences in how well the shooters hold. 
Many manufacturers in the industry really do hope that the majority never get it right. As long as you keep searching for that "magic fix", you will keep buying product.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

3-D Junkie said:


> Correct draw length is important, but just one part of an overall optimum setup. There is another aspect of the setup that will yield a much more stable float pattern, but is often ignored by most shooters. When the number is right, you will be blown away by the hold. I have seen posts where people touch on this aspect, but never define it. I have been setting customers and shooting staff up according to what I believe to be a great formula and seen immediate, and major, differences in how well the shooters hold.
> Many manufacturers in the industry really do hope that the majority never get it right. As long as you keep searching for that "magic fix", you will keep buying product.
> 
> Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk 2


exactly what is your great formula ??? we would love to know!


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

POOREBOY said:


> exactly what is your great formula ??? we would love to know!


Most people would. I'm not going to discuss it on the forums. I'm just the average Joe, so most people will argue, and say I'm cracked, because they don't do it that way. Its not worth the time. And what could I know.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## pcaz (Feb 17, 2012)

Some of us are open minded!


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

pcaz said:


> Some of us are open minded!



Give me a call if you have time. Ill get some info and give you some info. Try it out and then you can see if I'm crazy or not.


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## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

30 shot with a single arrow shot at 20yds this morning. This is a 2" bulls eye and the quarter is a reference.
My question is, is my stabilizers set up ok for me according to this group ? 
if not, please give advice on what I should do.
Thank you.

View attachment 1703401


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## bigbadwoolfe (Jan 1, 2013)

zmanastronomy said:


> 30 shot with a single arrow shot at 20yds this morning. This is a 2" bulls eye and the quarter is a reference.
> My question is, is my stabilizers set up ok for me according to this group ?
> if not, please give advice on what I should do.
> Thank you.
> ...


Add 1 oz to front, 2 oz to back, swing back 15 degrees out and 7 degrees down... No, I'm not serious... but I'm wondering the same about the question.

Looking at your image, nobody can tell you what's wrong... It could be inconsistent form, it could be that you got tired near the end, it could be that you needed a few arrows to warm up, it could be that you're THAT good and need to practice more... It could be anything... there's about a million things that could be, likely none of which are your stabilizers... put that bow in a shooting machine, probably that same arrow will hit the same spot 30 times... meaning, it's not the bow, it's you that's messing up... You are the only variable in that equation. So my suggestion would be, check your form and shot sequence for inconsistencies, and don't worry too much about your stabilizers.


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## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

bigbadwoolfe said:


> Add 1 oz to front, 2 oz to back, swing back 15 degrees out and 7 degrees down... No, I'm not serious... but I'm wondering the same about the question.
> 
> Looking at your image, nobody can tell you what's wrong... It could be inconsistent form, it could be that you got tired near the end, it could be that you needed a few arrows to warm up, it could be that you're THAT good and need to practice more... It could be anything... there's about a million things that could be, likely none of which are your stabilizers... put that bow in a shooting machine, probably that same arrow will hit the same spot 30 times... meaning, it's not the bow, it's you that's messing up... You are the only variable in that equation. So my suggestion would be, check your form and shot sequence for inconsistencies, and don't worry too much about your stabilizers.


So you're saying 27 in a quarter and 3 on the line is inconsistent ? I thought it was pretty good myself.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

consistent would be all 30 of them on the line....te, he, he!


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## one66stang (Mar 25, 2009)

tagged for later


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

Bump


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## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

ron w said:


> consistent would be all 30 of them on the line....te, he, he!


Yeah, I'm trying to get those 27 out to the line for consistency. LOL


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## bigbadwoolfe (Jan 1, 2013)

zmanastronomy said:


> So you're saying 27 in a quarter and 3 on the line is inconsistent ? I thought it was pretty good myself.


Wait, did you read something you didn't want to read? Sorry about that.

Why do you want to tighten that group? What are you trying to achieve? 

Only asking because 27 in a quarter, 3 on the line @ 20 yards is 297 on a good day. If you're shooting a local tourney, you're great. If you're shooting a state championship, you may be OK (depending on the state). If you're shooting the nationals, you're not making the cut... so "pretty good" is very subjective, and yes, depending on what you're shooting, you very well may be "pretty good".

Anyway, my point is that if you fire that same arrow 30 times through the same bow and stabilizer setup, hit the bullseye 27 times and miss it 3 times, it's likely not the stabilizers. Stabs make the bow more forgiving to a point, but they don't do magic. Maybe those 3 shots would have landed way out because you messed up quite a bit, but because of your good stab setup they still landed fairly close to the center. The game of tweaking equipment is never ending... You shoot until you miss, then you tweak something... and repeat forever or until you decide 300 isn't reachable and give up. 

If you can consistently hit 297 (which honestly is not bad) and you want to step up your game, you're looking at anything to help you... This can range from getting proper shoes and a breathable shirt, to muscle endurance training, psychological conditioning, improving your cardio (i.e. lowering your heart rate), ability to shoot at elevated heart rate, proper nutrition... At this point tweaking the stabs won't help you, actually may hurt you more than help you... you're at a point where you'll will have to start taking archery as more than just a hobby if you want to improve, or be OK with shooting 297... 

So before you go ahead and tweak those stabs, make sure you take enough pictures so you can go back to this setup...


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## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Well, I've been shooting a target bow about 3 months now. I shoot local club tourneys and am going to join the FAA here in Florida and try some State shoots.
I'm really not trying to compare to National level shooting. That's a little out of perspective for me. Maybe I should have stated I'm a back yard shooter and how's my groups.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. 
Thank you for your response.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

I've tried many of the theories that people pimp here on the forums. 99% is crap. One of my factory shooters actually tried to work with a poster on here that is always spouting his stabilizer theory. He sent a video, a picture of his target, and the guy told him he was an advanced shooter. The poster was charging money for coaching by e-mail. After telling the shooter he was advanced he had no advice, but asked the shooter...."What do you think you need to work on?" I don't know about you guys but to me it sounds like he is selling snake oil. Its easy to take an average shooter and help them out. But it doesn't mean you are good. It may just be that the new information is just a little less wrong than the old information.
Here on AT there is no shortage of people really struggling to get better. Unfortunately many people and companies use that as an opportunity to gain financially from their hope for a fix. 
In the time that I have been working in the industry I have heard people tell me over and over. Well so and so says.... The question I have for them is.. if you already have all that information, why are you talking to me? Most people say they just enjoy discussing the issue, but that's a lie. The reason is that they want to sound intelligent by spouting some junk someone else made up. 
If you got it figured out then there is no need to talk to me. If you got it figured out, then we should see the plaques and trophies piling up around you..., right?
I'm not cutting on anyone, it's just the way it is. 

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

some really good info on this subject. Thanks to everybodys input so far.


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

subscribe


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## trapper.robi (Jul 9, 2011)

Wow, just came across this. Great read. Thanks Nuts&bolts!


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

great thread here

Just want to touch on the laser deal. As mentioned don't have it setup so that the shooter can see it, all that will happen is the shooter will likely chase the laser. I'm reminded of when I worked with pistol shooters when I ran a gun shop/range...lasers were the in thing at the time. 

We'd have shooters come in and want the latest and greatest "gimick" for their pistol...fine, we'll sell it to you. But magically their well shooting pistol all of the sudden didn't shoot so well..."you didn't install the laser right". It didn't take long for me to see what was going on...chasing. Their sights were fine before but then they'd just start looking at the laser...the reason they bought it. Well, they'd see the laser squeez the trigger...push the gun forward anticipating recoil and the shot would be off...upon recovery, the dot is back in the same place. Again, I'd have to adjust their laser, sight etc...remember, all was good when they came in. This wasn't every one but it was a high enough percentage that it was an issue. 

Once these people were properly trained and used the tool for what it was intended for most did well. However there were plenty that continued to chase the dot only making their groupings open up (typically low left for RH shooter).


Though a pistol is a bit different than what we're talking about the principal is the same...we see it, we want to correct it...it's a laser, it can't be wrong, right? 

If you want to use the laser, it can be a great training aid, but you'll need assistance in using it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

trapper.robi said:


> Wow, just came across this. Great read. Thanks Nuts&bolts!


Welcome.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a hint. Does anyone know what "Center of Mass" is? Many recurve shooters do and that is why they shoot extensions on their v-bars. There is a specific goal they are trying to meet. Balance is important, but it is only one rung on the ladder. You need to understand what is going on with your riser geometry. I'm sure some of you may have noticed that most of the newer compound bows prefer a little more neutral or back weight balance in the stabilizer setup to really shoot the bow well. Even some other stabilizer manufacturers have touched on this trend. But its all part of a big puzzle. As long as you only focus on one aspect of the setup, you will miss another part and never really get it right. 
I will give you a quick overview.

(1) Determine Stab Lengths. I base my determination mostly on riser geometry, natural bow balance, and draw length. 
(2) Determine Mass Weight. This is based almost entirely on HOLDING WEIGHT, with very limited variance, for the archers shooting style.
(3) Balance. This is mostly dictated by natural center of mass, based on geometry.
(4) Bar angle. I generally go to about a 40 degree down angle but this can change based on axle to axle length. I also believe a down angle mount up front is very beneficial, especially on short ATA bows.
I do most of this before the bow even goes in a persons hand. I will set rear bar angle to favor the left a bit for right handed shooters. The amount of left balance is usually determined by the grip and shelf design to begin with. 
I do not see much benefit in the swing angles that many people are trying to use on rear stabs. This does not work well for most shooters. Ive seen some really crazy angles out and just have to shake my head and walk away when I see some of these guys fighting their bow. There are a few that this can be beneficial for but not many.
Also I see guys loading up their bows with tons of weight because they believe heavier is better. WRONG. More weight is not always the answer. Also many shooters have a slight natural cant. A slight cant is just fine. Don't try to correct it by moving your rear stabilizer out to pull the bow back to level. Adjust the elevation on your sight to adjust to level for your cant. Most quality sights have an adjustment in the elevation for this reason.

When you move the back bar way out to the side you are moving the center of mass way to the left of center of your bow and also moving it forward at the same time. When the stored energy is released this will make that stabilizer induce a rotational force in your bow. For this same reason I dont bite into the gimmick of these side offset hunter and target stab setups. You may think it looks cool but it is not helping. These companies have a lot of good stories to tell about them, but in the end they are just polishing a turd. 
Think about these things, and let me know if it makes sense to you.
Also you need to understand your limits. shooting a bow at 65-70lbs with 65% letoff is going to cause a problem. Some can pull it off but most absolutely can not. You need to be reasonable. And if your draw length is not correct, you will not see much improvement. A couple twists in the string or cable can mean a world of difference.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Continue on 3-DJunkie...I'm listening, well reading...are you starting with the theory of multiply tip weight of front bar by length of front bar and divide that number by the rear bar length to get the weight appropriate to put on the back bar to start? Example 27" front bar X 4oz=108/12" back bar = 9oz on back bar.


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ttt


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

That formula has been around a long time. I never use that formula. All that does is take the bow back to the original front to back balance it had before you put on stabilizers. You may create a little moment of inertia, but the formula does not work very well with a bow that has a reflexed riser. In fact you will probably shoot worse than before. 
There's a lot of information that comes out on these forums that would work great if it had come out 10 years earlier, but doesn't apply any more because bow design and technology has evolved.
That formula also does not take into account the angle of drop in the rear bar to produce a lower center of mass, or the mass weight/holding weight ratio that is more crucial to reducing pin movement. 
Most of the info you get on here concerning stabilizers is not original thought. Its theories that have been recycled for years, and no longer do any real good because bow designs and geometry have changed drastically.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

Marked...great thread-

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

4 laters


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Ive had several people message me about this thread. here's a little info to get you thinking in the right direction. I posted this on FB earlier, so Ill just copy and paste.

Whats The Proper Way To Set Up Stabilizers?

I am asked this question so often you would not believe. There are a lot of theories floating around the internet forums, and passed between shooters, at tournaments and hunting camps.
Most formulas are so far off base that you would actually shoot worse than with no stabilizers at all, because they were developed 10-15 years ago when bow designs and technology were drastically different.
Over the last couple years I have pretty much lived for building and setting up stabilizers. I have learned a lot from talking to pro's and joe's alike. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, and many people have some of those pieces, but never really see the whole picture. No one person I have ever talked to has ever put it all together for me, so trial and error, have been a great help, along with a very competitive shooting staff that has been willing to test and experiment with their own setups.
There are a lot of things to consider when setting up stabilizers. Most of them have nothing to do with the shooter, and everything to do with the bow they are going on. Draw weight, holding weight, mass weight, riser reflex, and center of mass. Draw length comes into play, but requires very little compensation in the weight of the system.
Every one of these factors has an influence on the length of the stabilizers and how much weight is put on them. And your draw length needs to be set properly for this to work to its maximum potential.
First off lets discuss Center Of Mass since this is a new consideration for most shooters. The center of Mass is the balance point of the bow. If your bow falls forward out of your hand you have a center of mass that is in front of your grip. the faster it falls, the more forward mass you have. Most modern compound bows have a forward center of mass as a result of reflexed riser and parallel limb design. Center of mass is important because it creates leverage.
Now lets consider holding weight vs. mass weight. There is a "Sweet Spot" in this ratio, that is very predictable. The reason most shooters have to experiment with their stabilizer setups so much is not due to trying to figure out this ratio. It is due to trying to apply a certain ratio, without having any consideration for the center of mass in relation to the mass weight....... To explain let me put it like this....... if I had a 2 pound weight and I held it in my hand in front of me as if I were holding a bow, it would not be difficult to hold up. but if I held a 4 foot stick in front of me as if it were a stabilizer and put the 2 pound weight on the end of the stick, it would be much more difficult to hold up. Its not because I increased the mass weight, because the weight is basically the same. But putting that weight on the end of the stick created leverage by moving the center of mass farther away from me.
Now we have to discuss holding weight. Because we have letoff on compound bows, it is necessary to determine the ACTUAL holding weight of the bow.
When we are at full draw we are pulling back and slightly upward to our anchor point in relation to the grip of the bow. This creates a little backward "leverage" to counteract the amount of mass weight we are holding up. When you have the mass weight / holding weight ratio correct, it will seem as if the weight you are pulling and the weight you are holding up seem to balance out and you can truely relax in the shot and have very little pin movement. This ratio is very predictable as long as you can control the center of mass.
So lets assume you find this sweet spot in that ratio, and then switch to a bow with a higher or lower holding weight. You set the bow up with the same mass weight / holding weight ratio, but it is holding horribly. So you try to just set the new bow up with the same mass weight as your old bow, and it is still horrible. This is because of different riser geometry, and you have lost control of the center of mass. You need to recover the center of mass to a known point for a known MW/HW ratio to work.
I have been setting up bows like this for a few months with outstanding results for our shooters. I have a MW/HW ratio that I apply to every bow I set up, with a predictable center of mass, and it flat out works.
These are the most critical pieces to the puzzle that most people do not understand about stabilizers. There are other things to consider when doing a setup, but these are the most critical aspects to making it all work.
I don't publicly share the numbers I use. However I do help customers get their bows set up right. And will set them up for them whenever possible. My goal and job is not to educate the general public or other manufacturers. My goal and job is to give our customers the best competitive edge we can through building quality products, and providing those customers, that trust in us, all the information we can, to help them to achieve their goals.
There have been formulas and theories all over the internet for a few years, and I have not yet seen one that emphasizes these points together. And none give them the attention that they truely deserve.


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

good read thanks


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## bigbadwoolfe (Jan 1, 2013)

3-D Junkie said:


> Ive had several people message me about this thread. here's a little info to get you thinking in the right direction. I posted this on FB earlier, so Ill just copy and paste.
> 
> Whats The Proper Way To Set Up Stabilizers?
> 
> ...


No disrespect as I do value your opinion, but I find this post rather useless. Not only does it not help me, but it invalidates much of what I've read here on the subject, while throwing some new ways to determine stabilization without really telling how to do it. Seems like it was written in Washington DC by a bunch of politicians. To put it differently, I don't think I can better stabilize my bow after reading this post. 

It's like when someone is trying to get their computer to connect to the Internet, but someone else who knows a seemingly good way tells them the entire history of the Internet, what the dangers of connecting are, how the Internet protocols work and a bunch of theory on Internet connections... So all one needs to connect is to figure out that theory and they'll be online in minutes. 

So yeah, I'm not asking for your secret sauce, but elaborating on how someone would go about using this method to stabilize their bow better wouldn't be completely out of line. Actually, it would be quite helpful! 

Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way. 

Cheers! 



Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

I will elaborate a bit in hopes that you are able to pick up what I am laying down. Its hard to explain in writing. To do that lets look at the setups of a vast majority of recurve shooters. A recurve bow has a deflexed riser and no letoff. The deflexed riser will generally create a center of mass behind the grip. This will require a lot of mass weight to acheive a good mass weight/holding weight (MW/HW) ratio. Then you couple that with the fact that there is no letoff on a recurve bow, and the amount of mass weight required to achieve a good MW/HW ratio becomes ridiculous.
Here's an example with some hypothetical numbers. Lets assume that we are putting a stabilizer setup on a recurve bow that has a 40lb draw weight. Keep in mind that there is no letoff so our holding weight is also 40lb. If our target MW/HW ratio is 42%, we will need to make the bow weigh 16.8 lbs with stabilizers and weights. That is a very unreasonable number and that would mean that we would be stacking a crazy amount of weight on the end of the stabilizers. But for the sake of argument lets work with that weight. Using a well circulated theory lets apply the weights proportionately. Lets also use what most people would consider popular lengths of stabilizers. Lets use a 30" front with 2- 12" rear bars. And lets assume the bow already weighs 6.8lbs. We now need to divide the 10 lbs between the 3 stabilizers. So just to ball park it we would start with about 46oz on the front bar which is 30" so we would multiply 46x30 and we would have 1380 inch/oz. now we divide that by 12 to give us 115 oz. to split between the 2- 12" back bars.
You can see how unreasonable these numbers are, and the bow would fall backward at the shot. Also with that much weight on the end of a 30" stabilizer it would create a ton of moment of inertia or (resistance to movement), which is good..... but any movement would also carry a lot of momentum and take a very long time to stop. Not to mention how much of a pain it would be to carry that bow around, that weighs 16lbs. So how do you think recurve shooters reduce the weight necessary to get a good hold? 
They use a v-bar extender to move the center of mass forward. It allows them to use leverage to achieve a much higher "perceived" mass weight. It moves the whole stabilizer and weight system forward and greatly reduces the amount of actual weight needed to acheive the same hold. Now the numbers I have used here are hypothetical so don't argue my theory based on that.

So understanding that about recurves, lets examine differences in compound bows. 

Many compound bows have reflexed risers which puts the center of mass in front of the grip. They also have letoff which greatly reduces the amount of mass weight needed to achieve a good MW/HW ratio. This is why you do not see compound shooters using v-bar extensions. So think about this for a minute. lets assume you have 2 shooters of the same draw length, with very similar holding weights, shooting drastically different setups from a mass weight perspective? It is because they have different center of mass positions. One shooter may be shooting a 7.25lb bow and holding like a rock, the other may be shooting a bow at 6.5lb holding just as well, but I can pretty much gaurantee they have a different center of mass. With as many bows as I have set up I can tell you that the mass weight/ holding weight ratio that will work well for a majority of shooters is very predictable as long as I can dictate the center of mass to a predetermined point. And I feel I have found an accurate way to do that to within a few ounces.
The issues that most people have are finding a good center of mass in proportion to a predefined MW/HW ratio. This is why so many people that spout theories or formulas tell you that it is just a starting point and you just have to keep playing with weights from there. Often times people choose stabilizers lengths or styles that make it nearly impossible to achieve the correct balance for their bow and keeping these theories in mind. 
When some one tells you that correcting a pin holding issue is fixed simply by adding or removing weight from a front or a side stabilizer does not realize that 1 oz of weight changes not only mass weight but also, center of mass. This makes it very hard to find the "right combination". Especially when these principals are not well understood.

I hope this makes some sense and gets you all thinking and considering these principals. Stabilizer design can also play a major factor in this equation and your ability to hit your sweet spot.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Interesting stuff. I wonder though, isnt the old guess and test method that gets us pretty close good enough. I built my target rig last year and when I chose weights I did the double the weight on the back bar thing. I started with 6oz up front and 12oz. off the side. It ended up shooting best for me with a 1:1 ratio. I now shoot 6oz. up front and 6 oz. out back. I like a happy medium between as steady as possible yet still easy to carry for 3D. Sure I could load up 30 oz. And get a pretty steady bow but then i fatigue much quicker and start dropping my bow arm. This is especially true with shoots that require 100+ arrows in a day. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## aebennett (Sep 28, 2011)

subscribed


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

3-D Junkie, Still feel like we're missing a vital a piece of the equation.... For example, for a hypothetical compound shooter (shooting say a PSE Supra) with a MW/HW ratio of 0.757, who is using a 27" front stab and 12" side bar, how would you determine the appropriate amount of weight to add that would be in keeping with the center of mass you determined to be appropriate for that particular shooter's bow geometry?


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

deepsprayj said:


> Interesting stuff. I wonder though, isnt the old guess and test method that gets us pretty close good enough. I built my target rig last year and when I chose weights I did the double the weight on the back bar thing. I started with 6oz up front and 12oz. off the side. It ended up shooting best for me with a 1:1 ratio. I now shoot 6oz. up front and 6 oz. out back. I like a happy medium between as steady as possible yet still easy to carry for 3D. Sure I could load up 30 oz. And get a pretty steady bow but then i fatigue much quicker and start dropping my bow arm. This is especially true with shoots that require 100+ arrows in a day.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


 When you are talking about, loading up with 30oz. or more, it is a result of people always saying that heavy bows shoot better, or more weight equals less movement. That is as accurate a statement as saying less weight equals less movement. Neither is correct. It is a proportion and where that weight is centered that make the whole system work. I know nothing about your setup other than how much weight you have on unknown stabilizers of unknown length.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

montigre said:


> 3-D Junkie, Still feel like we're missing a vital a piece of the equation.... For example, for a hypothetical compound shooter (shooting say a PSE Supra) with a MW/HW ratio of 0.757, who is using a 27" front stab and 12" side bar, how would you determine the appropriate amount of weight to add that would be in keeping with the center of mass you determined to be appropriate for that particular shooter's bow geometry?


 I would bet that you can achieve a MUCH better hold with your setup. I base this on the little bit of info that you have given and past experience with the Supra. I admit I could be wrong, but without being able to set the bow up myself and putting it in your hand, we can't be sure.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Right now I am coming off of my best year of shooting ever and last fall I spent almost a week testing and coming up with a combination of weights for my target bow front and back. I built myself two weight hangers that I could easily fill up with weight and hang off of my front and rear stabs and try many combinations and after a week I found my choice and have shot it all season first on a 30 inch front stab and a 12 inch rear bar. Then I got a 33 inch front stab and 15 inch rear bar and simply moved the weights over.

To me the mistake many guys make is they only add one ounce at a time because they don't have very many to choose from so they really never test a wide enough range of weights to get a good picture of what is going on. Having a quick easy way to cover from 0 to 30 oz allows you to make changes quickly and rule out combinations that simply don't work.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

3-D Junkie said:


> I would bet that you can achieve a MUCH better hold with your setup. I base this on the little bit of info that you have given and past experience with the Supra. I admit I could be wrong, but without being able to set the bow up myself and putting it in your hand, we can't be sure.


I don't shoot PSE, I was using that as a hypothetical example of the bows with parallel limb geometry since you mentioned that particular set up in your original posting. Since this is an educational thread, I was trying to determine what you used to fill in the back end of the equation to determine how much weight would be necessary to balance such a bow at full draw with those parameters. 

So, if the MW=7.50# and the HW=9.90# giving a ratio of 0.757, what would be your next step to determine how much weight to add and where it should be added to this hypothetical reflexed parallel limb bow? TKS.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Other than float I found one other thing that really helped me especially on long days with tons of shots. I was finding that my anchor was creeping up my jaw because I didn't have enough back weight and by making my bow slightly back heavy it helps me keep really solid in my anchor and I am not fighting to keep it in place. 

Another thing I have found is that I like my rear bar to be out a little to far for my bow to be perfectly balanced left to right, I saw some pro shooters doing this in their setups and I like it. It puts a little side pressure on your grip and you have to counter it with some slight pressure in your grip which to me helps make the float slightly better. A perfectly balanced bow front and back and side to side just seems to wander a little more than a bow that is back heavy and side heavy.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Ok, in light of this conversation I loaded up my stabs with as much weight as I had and shot a few arrows. I went with a 2:1 ratio with 10oz. Up front and 20oz. On the back. This made for a gaudy looking back bar but it did work. I had a very tight float pattern just around the 10 ring on a vegas target. I shot 10 arrows like this, 10 with my normal setup, and 10 with no stabs. I shot best with the heavy rig, dropped one with the lighter set up, and dropped 3 with no stabs at all. The one dropped arrow with the light setup was not missed by much. I shot a left eight and a low nine with no stabs. This tells me what I suspected. If you are shooting a vegas round or something similar then load up that weight. If you are trudging around a 3D and shooting alot of arrows then the stability lost can be made up by less fatigue with a lighter set up. As for no stabs I would say bow design, shooter ability, and accuracy expectations are going to be critical factors if choosing no stabs or maybe just a rubber damper type stab. Hunting in a stand with shots less than 25 yards would be a scenario that comes to mind. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

deepsprayj said:


> Ok, in light of this conversation I loaded up my stabs with as much weight as I had and shot a few arrows. I went with a 2:1 ratio with 10oz. Up front and 20oz. On the back. This made for a gaudy looking back bar but it did work. I had a very tight float pattern just around the 10 ring on a vegas target. I shot 10 arrows like this, 10 with my normal setup, and 10 with no stabs. I shot best with the heavy rig, dropped one with the lighter set up, and dropped 3 with no stabs at all. The one dropped arrow with the light setup was not missed by much. I shot a left eight and a low nine with no stabs. This tells me what I suspected. If you are shooting a vegas round or something similar then load up that weight. If you are trudging around a 3D and shooting alot of arrows then the stability lost can be made up by less fatigue with a lighter set up. As for no stabs I would say bow design, shooter ability, and accuracy expectations are going to be critical factors if choosing no stabs or maybe just a rubber damper type stab. Hunting in a stand with shots less than 25 yards would be a scenario that comes to mind.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


 Your method of just adding weight at a 2-1 ratio did nothing to bring the setup in line with what I am trying to explain.


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## a1hoyt.ca (Feb 3, 2008)

This is great info. I will have to share it with a few of my buddies that using longer tabs more often now.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

3-D Junkie said:


> Your method of just adding weight at a 2-1 ratio did nothing to bring the setup in line with what I am trying to explain.


I think it kind of does. What is the goal of all this formulation? Is it to shoot better scores? Is it to find the most efficient set up in the least amount of time and cost? There are many different goals and needs each archer can have so formulation is going to be ballpark at best regardless of method. A 2:1 ratio or a 3:1 ratio is a good starting point for a typical front/side bar combo. Archers worried about the exact ideal stab weight know what they want so a little experimentation and they can get there. The only scenario where I can see an exact formula being necessary is when no weight is available to experiment with. This usually isnt a big problem as those willing to drop $500 on stabs usually dont mind spending another $50 on a bunch of weight. I know plenty of guys that shoot very little weight on their bars and do ok. Its a trade off as always because more weight usually equates to quicker fatigue and sloppiness so the points lost by a more erratic float are negated by the points gained through a more consistent float over time.

Oh, for those who were asking about my stab lengths I use a 27" front and a 12" side bar mounted at the second hole from bottom on the supra riser. The back bar helps keep me from dipping the bow downward and dropping shots low. I set mine just out far enough to clear the string during the shot at a pretty steep downward angle. I would say 60º down if i had to guess. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Ok, sounds good. If your happy, so am I.

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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Its all in good fun, right? Im no expert by any means thats for sure. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

3-D Junkie said:


> I will elaborate a bit in hopes that you are able to pick up what I am laying down. Its hard to explain in writing. To do that lets look at the setups of a vast majority of recurve shooters. A recurve bow has a deflexed riser and no letoff. The deflexed riser will generally create a center of mass behind the grip. This will require a lot of mass weight to acheive a good mass weight/holding weight (MW/HW) ratio. Then you couple that with the fact that there is no letoff on a recurve bow, and the amount of mass weight required to achieve a good MW/HW ratio becomes ridiculous.
> Here's an example with some hypothetical numbers. Lets assume that we are putting a stabilizer setup on a recurve bow that has a 40lb draw weight. Keep in mind that there is no letoff so our holding weight is also 40lb. If our target MW/HW ratio is 42%, we will need to make the bow weigh 16.8 lbs with stabilizers and weights. That is a very unreasonable number and that would mean that we would be stacking a crazy amount of weight on the end of the stabilizers. But for the sake of argument lets work with that weight. Using a well circulated theory lets apply the weights proportionately. Lets also use what most people would consider popular lengths of stabilizers. Lets use a 30" front with 2- 12" rear bars. And lets assume the bow already weighs 6.8lbs. We now need to divide the 10 lbs between the 3 stabilizers. So just to ball park it we would start with about 46oz on the front bar which is 30" so we would multiply 46x30 and we would have 1380 inch/oz. now we divide that by 12 to give us 115 oz. to split between the 2- 12" back bars.
> You can see how unreasonable these numbers are, and the bow would fall backward at the shot. Also with that much weight on the end of a 30" stabilizer it would create a ton of moment of inertia or (resistance to movement), which is good..... but any movement would also carry a lot of momentum and take a very long time to stop. Not to mention how much of a pain it would be to carry that bow around, that weighs 16lbs. So how do you think recurve shooters reduce the weight necessary to get a good hold?
> They use a v-bar extender to move the center of mass forward. It allows them to use leverage to achieve a much higher "perceived" mass weight. It moves the whole stabilizer and weight system forward and greatly reduces the amount of actual weight needed to acheive the same hold. Now the numbers I have used here are hypothetical so don't argue my theory based on that.
> ...


I understand your concept, question for you

Where is the perfect location for this center of mass, the pivot point at the grip, or forward or rearward?


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Bearlee, call me and we can talk about your setup.


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## Brad HT (Dec 9, 2006)

Im curious about the ProComp. With the change in grip location last year, did you notice a difference in customer setups with that bow?
The reason I ask, is because ever since I got mine, It holds fairly well, but I have never really found a great and comfortable position and weight combo for that bow.... any suggestions?

B~


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## GreenBallz (Aug 17, 2012)

With my pro comp I couldn't find that spot either.. I had my side bar mounted in the lower rear hole and tried every bit of weight and angle I could think of.... It drove me nuts! Then after watching a few shoots on you tube with good old Reo I moved my side stab up to the front stab hole and made everything all better!


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## wagtail (May 5, 2011)

Read later. Thank you to everyone for the very useful info


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Marked. Sorry for bump everyone. Awfully good data here.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Me also.



CMA121885 said:


> Subscribed


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> 99% is crap


X1000 The ideas to stop pin movement might work for some but for most I would say it's more a physical or mental limitation. Swinging back bars out and all that may help for a while but only because it takes the mind off what may be the real problem. Some people can only hold so steady. Same with rifles, some shoot good at 50 yards off hand, others cant hit a softball consistently. I used to be a lot steadier 20 years ago.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I just read all 7 pages of this thread and saw my post back from september 2013, well over the last year I did improve my hold and float and eliminated the occasional drop out of the bow out the bottom of the 12 ring. I got a full set of carbofast stabs from Damien along with 40 ounces of weight and I went out and layed it on my 3d stool at 50 or so yards and I just started shooting with no weight on my stabs, they were totally blank of weight. I then started adding weight to the front and rear bar and writing down good and bad things that I saw and over about 2 days I had found 2 really good combinations of weight that really gave me good float and overall feel and performance. After a couple weeks of shooting I noticed that one of them actually made me less prone to see the dreaded drop out of the 12 ring and it is the one that I still use to this day. 

I strongly suggest that you find a way to get 40 or so ounces of weight so that you can start low and go way past your comfort zone, There is a lot to be learned by shooting a little bit with to much weight. I see way to many people who borrow one ounce from a buddy and they put it on their stab and they call this testing, I couldn't disagree more. By having a good amount of extra weight you can try a variety of combinations and settle on 3 or so good combinations and then shoot with them for a few weeks and really nail down which one performs the best for you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Read all this and got dizzy.....Good info, but a lot of reading and sorting out stuff.

Me, there is no set ratio, different length front and back stabs tear ratios apart. Watched this Archery Center video, one of England's top archery centers. The spokesperson, the archer, gave of a 1:3 ratio. Able to stop the video I took Snips of the weights on his front and single back bar. 14 ounces up front and 17 ounces on the back is not a 1:3 ratio.

First things first. You don't on a bunch of weight. Too much weight can hurt you as in hurt you physically. If wanting more weight then one should build up to it. 

You just don't throw weight on and expect things to be correct, even if correct the first day. Shoot your setup for a few days to see verify. 

Griv's formula has been around a while. Though kind of old it still gets one in the ball park. Here's one he gave of that's a little different.
"length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"
Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.
You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.
You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X." (underline is usually missing).


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Read all this and got dizzy.....Good info, but a lot of reading and sorting out stuff.
> 
> Me, there is no set ratio, different length front and back stabs tear ratios apart. Watched this Archery Center video, one of England's top archery centers. The spokesperson, the archer, gave of a 1:3 ratio. Able to stop the video I took Snips of the weights on his front and single back bar. 14 ounces up front and 17 ounces on the back is not a 1:3 ratio.
> 
> ...




Haven't seen the video or even read through all the posts, but could the 1:3 ratio have had soething to do with bar length, or even torque (length * weight) or soething? 

As I normally use stabs for a whole other reason than pin float, I am clueless as to how you retinal dependent shooters do it. Just wanting to learn...


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## PWOODNC (Mar 6, 2005)

3-d junkie hasn’t been on AT for a few years.

Did anyone in this thread ever contact him to try out his way of doing things?
If so what were your results?


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## Sivart (Mar 12, 2004)

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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Haven't seen the video or even read through all the posts, but could the 1:3 ratio have had soething to do with bar length, or even torque (length * weight) or soething?
> 
> As I normally use stabs for a whole other reason than pin float, I am clueless as to how you retinal dependent shooters do it. Just wanting to learn...


1:3 ratio is a simple number to start with. For Target Folks. Say you have the typical 12-inch side stabilizer. Front stabilizer can range from 28-inches to 30-inches to 33-inches. Let's say you have the 33-inch front stabilizer. So, TECHNICALLY, and you know how TECHNICAL AT folks like to get, the ratio for a 33-inch front stick to the 12-inch rear facing stick, would be 1:2.75000000000, so easier to say 1:3 ratio.

So, Sonny gives the more detailed explanation, again, simplifying things, let's do a very basic "torque" or lever arm balance. If we do a Free Body Diagram, of a stabilizer, the front stick, the LEVERAGE factor from the 27-inch front bar, with 4 ounces of weight on the end of that long FRONT stick = 27-inches times 4 ounces (think torque wrench), and we get 108 inch ounces of leverage. If you are picky, we can convert that to ft-lbs. 27-inch torque wrench length = 2.25 feet of torque wrench length. 4 ounces of weight at the end of the torque wrench is 1/4 lb of force, applied at the end of the front "torque wrench". So, we take 1/4 lb of force (weight at the end of the stick) and we take a 2.25 feet of torque wrench length (front stick length) and we get 0.5625 ft lbs of "torque" or leverage from the front stick. 

So, we want to equalize the LEVERAGE from the rear facing stick, the side stabilizer, for STARTERS. Since we converted to FT-LBS, then the math is easy. 12-inch long side stick is a 1 foot long Torque Wrench. We have 0.5625 ft-lbs of "torque" or leverage from the front stick, so we want 0.5625 ft-lbs of "torque" or leverage also from the side stick. So, we want 0.5625 lbs of weight on the side stick. Let's convert 0.5625 lbs to ounces. Try 9 ounces on the side stabilizer to get roughly equal "LEVERAGE" from the side stick.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Haven't seen the video or even read through all the posts, but could the 1:3 ratio have had soething to do with bar length, or even torque (length * weight) or soething?
> 
> As I normally use stabs for a whole other reason than pin float, I am clueless as to how you retinal dependent shooters do it. Just wanting to learn...


So, the retinal dependent shooters and the non-retinal dependent shooters, from the perspective of a Free Body Diagram (it's an engineering thing), think of a shooter as a stick figure. Let's pick center of gravity right at mid-chest (button on your shirt). This center of gravity is also the center of rotation, the pivot point for all forces. The front stick provides FORWARDS leverage, and your bow arm wants to pivot down towards the floor, so your bow hand must direct the FORCE in the UP direction to resist the DOWN pull force direction of the front leverage stick. The Side stabilizer provides REAR leverage, and your release elbow also wants to pivot DOWN towards the floor, which is a good thing, cuz your release elbow is on the opposite side of the pivot point...button on your shirt, about mid-chest level. So, we have a see-saw (you know, those dangerous things that are now out-lawed from playgrounds). BUT, there is one more thing. HOLDING WEIGHT. YOur release arm is pulling against HOLDING WEIGHT. If you have one of those 90% letoff bows, your HOLDING weight is only 10% of that 70 lb target bow you are shooting for spots. So, you are only pulling 7 lbs into the wall. Maybe you have one of those new fangled 65% target bows, at only 50 lbs of draw weight. So, you are holding, PULLING against 35% of the 50 lbs of target bow draw weight, so you are HOLDING only 17.5 lbs. Whether you HOLD 7 lbs with the more MANLY 70 lb target bow, or you use that wussy 50 lb target bow, and are holding the more MANLY 17.5 lbs of holding weight...at full draw, you need to take the HOLDING WEIGHT into consideration, cuz the HOLDING weight, AND the side stabilizer leverage (torque force) COMBINE to create the TOTAL work on the release side, for that release side elbow.

MORE holding weight and the leverage from the side stabilizer, needs to be balanced by the FRONT stab leverage. Play with ONE end of your stab system, to find the sweet spot that gives you the best results. YOu can pick a REASONABLE amount of weight on the FRONT stick, based on your fatigue levels and the drop off in group size, as you get tired, towards the end of your training session. Play with the amount of side stick leverage force, to change the FOC of the entire stabilizer system. You want the entire stabilizer system, to be biased in the front heavy direction. How much FOC for the entire stabilizer system, will be determined empirically, based on shooting results. FOC for the stabilizer system, means the shooter's full draw posture (yeah, this matters), means holding weight at full draw, means front stick length and leverage force, means side stick angles, side stick leverage force.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Haven't seen the video or even read through all the posts, but could the 1:3 ratio have had soething to do with bar length, or even torque (length * weight) or soething?
> 
> As I normally use stabs for a whole other reason than pin float, I am clueless as to how you retinal dependent shooters do it. Just wanting to learn...


I think Alan pretty much covered you question, but will add; I noted "different length front and back stabs tear ratios apart." You can use Griv's formula to see how ratio is effected (just insert different numbers) . His example is more of 1:2.

I have used some pretty good weight and have got good results, but the heavier weight took a toll, wore me down. I've told of this before, friend of mine tried to mimic one of better Pros as for stabilizers and heavy weights. 11 pound bow hurt him. The next I knew I was watching him cut down a Bee String Premier front stab from 30" to 26" and dropping off so much weight his bow weighed less than my 7 1/2 pound bow.


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## Sivart (Mar 12, 2004)

sub'd


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## Ray Czajka (Aug 19, 2012)

Ttt


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## Sledge12001 (Jul 11, 2016)

This is in the weeds a bit. I think you just heap on weight until it is too heavy then back them off. Relax in the shot and see what you bow does. Behind tuning arrows this gets my second most attention. Continually change and try different things. Get adjustable stab mounts. Get different lengths and try them all. There are deals all the time. Keep looking until
You find what works.


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## 419hayden (Mar 3, 2009)

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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

Weight is directly affected by form... You can steady up in early rounds with more weights but ware down later and cause form issues/misalignments... As much as stabs are important so is the ability to shoot 30, 60 or more near perfect shots. Holding steadier on some shots is part of it.

I will say one of the guys here has 320z on his back bar and 16 up front and no BS it felt like mine at the time with 4 up front 12 rear with similar length bars. Definitely a hands on experiment to get it just right. I am still looking for magical numbers and lengths!


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## lvetohunt (Feb 24, 2008)

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