# tiller vs nock point



## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Hmmm... unless I'm misunderstanding this, I honestly don't see how the two are related. If the nock point is off, then its going to have the arrow porpois out of the riser. Changing the tiller will only add or decrease poundage, which would effect its fishtailing. 

I think the only way that a tiller adjustment would change the nock point is if the two tillers ARE NOT turned to the same amount of turns. Like if the top is only 3 turns out from the bottom and the lower tiller is ok... 5 turns. Then we might have something here. Follow me? 

You can take one of those tuning rulers and measure the distance the string is from the ends of the riser to make sure that they are even. That might affect your nock point. 



Xcreekarchery1 said:


> my dad was sayng that his nock poin was really high. could this be changed by the tiller?


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## Sleeping Robot (Aug 16, 2007)

There is definitely a relationship between the nocking point and the tiller. There was a good note about this on another board:

http://www.tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13991

Rather than summarize it, I'll leave it for others to read.

Best regards,
Ron


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Your on archery talk.... Why not have a look here:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=121
Must be one that you can use.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Tiller and nock point are not related in how they effect the flight of the arrow, but a change in tiller definitely requires a change in nock point.

Changing tiller doesn't change the poundage of one limb vs. the other limb. In fact it doesn't change the poundage of the limb at all. It simply changes the angle of the string versus the riser. This change in angle causes one limb to travel for a longer or shorter period of time during the power stroke relative to the other limb.

With limbs that are the same stiffness as most modern limbs are, there is very little effect on arrow flight when the tiller is set between 1/4" and 1" of positive tiller. It obviously raises the nock point as you go to a higher tiller, but the actual effect on the arrow is very small.

From my testing a significant or as some would say, radical positive tiller is quite beneficial. Especially if you are having trouble with sight marks at 90m. Simply go to a 1/2" or 3/4" positive tiller and you get a huge improvement in sight marks with no adverse effects.

Here's an animation of a crazy test I did last year that shows the effect of crazy tiller adjustments. These are due to limb poundage difference, but the same effect is true with equal limbs that have the tiller adjusted as far as it will go.

Enjoy 










cheers,
Pete


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Tiller with modern limbs is only changing the angle of the riser on the vertical and therefore the pressure point, and then of course changing tiller needs an adjustement in nocking point (or you may use tiller in tuning to avoid to move the nocking point and viceversa) 
Basically, higther the tiller, higther the nocking point and viceversa, if stabilzars remain the same. Dynamically, best solution remains to have the arrow as close to 80 degrees to the string as possible, thta also mans riser as vertical as possible, bu to avoid to unbalance the limbs too much.
Conclusion, tiller should be from zero (preferred) doun or up to the natural one of the pair for Olympic shooting (usually positive). 
Bare bow usually needs a slightly negative adjustement that someone gets by reversing the limbs to keep them working at natural tiller.


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## drtyrrel (Aug 26, 2007)

Vittorio why does barebow usually need a slightly negative adjustment vs. zero or positive tiller for olympic shooting ?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

drtyrrel said:


> Vittorio why does barebow usually need a slightly negative adjustment vs. zero or positive tiller for olympic shooting ?


Because they are drawing the string average close or below the pressure point, and they can't use stabilizers to dinamically compensate this.


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## drtyrrel (Aug 26, 2007)

thank you.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

When I was using Beiter nocking points, I soon discovered that if I wanted to securely bind the point to the string so that it would not creep up or down I had to use a strong tension on the Beiter Serving tool.

Unfortunately, once served in, during fine tuning, it is usually necessary to raise the nocking point up(or down) by a thread width or more at a time, searching for the better grouping. 
Also, even with the most careful attention when serving in the BNP, you almost always end up with the nocking point served in either too high or too low, necessitating a change during the tuning process.

So, I discovered, making a change in the tiller allowed me to get the height of the nocking point just right. 

A good archer can sense the difference in draw vectors that a change in tiller will have in the bow's feeling, perhaps. 

I'm taught that the best tiller is a zero tiller, but that a proper nocking height is much further up the criticality list - PNH is more important than ZT. so when you have to choose, PNH has a bigger effect on the total dynamic of the arrow delivery system tune.

I once set up a pair of bows, tuned sufficiently well to the archer, that the bare shafts at 70 meters were just a few inches directly above the fletched group. The tiller was nowhere near zero, but the Beiter Nocking Point height was perfect. The archer had no problem with the tiller affecting draw, and was able to shoot extremely well at 70 meters (based on "arrows in the gold").

Another "coach" then (in my absence) decided that the tiller was disastrous, didn't check the performance of the archer in actual shooting, and he then adjusted it to near zero. 

This lowered the Beiter Nocking point (perhaps a full inch too low) so far that it stressed the arrow rest to failure(he apparently never checked the nocking point height afterwards), and the junior archer spent an entire day shooting on a broken rest, turfing most arrows well in front of the bale, during an international competition. The "coach" never bothered to observe the archer's gear in use to be able to identify the problem. If you want to ruin an archer's head for years, this method of coaching can be very effective.

I no longer rely on BNPs, because I feel floss points are more easily adjusted and tuned to, without putting any other parameter out of "perfect". BNPs are good as far as being able to get a consistent nock "click" resistance, but for me there are other ways to achieve that and get a better overall tune. 

So to the original question - tiller and nocking point height are completely interdependent. Change one and you unavoidably change the other. And Brace Height is usually just as closely linked to either one. With apologies to Hammer I have to say that either one can alter the arrow's substantially, particularly when you change the tiller drastically and DO NOT CHANGE THE nocking height!


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