# Making you change classes ??



## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

In the ASA and IBO they state if you win a certain amount in your class you are required to move up.
My question is: I shoot in HC and prefer that class because of my set-up, but it would seem if I were required to move up a class, I would be at a disadvantage shooting against shooters with open class set-ups. Or am I interpreting this wrong?

Thanks for the help,
vance


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

If your shooting the HC .You could move up to unlimited and still shoot the same set up.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

I wish the ASA would do more kicking. the top 1/3rd of the ASA Novice class shooters could re-sandbag New Orleans for the next hurricaine in a matter of hours.


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

Kill Shill said:


> the top 1/3rd of the ASA Novice class shooters could re-sandbag New Orleans for the next hurricaine in a matter of hours.


I heard this comment alot down there. Sandbag this and sandbag that..............I got called a sandbagger to my face. All I can do is laugh about it. I shot my VERY FIRST ASA and not knowing what to expect I chose the Novice class..........and won. I made the comment and stand behind it, "I will prolly move up next time regardless of where I finish". I shot as hard as I could, PERIOD. Thats not sandbagging. Sandbagging is when you shoot just enough to get it done using 70% of your skill/horsepower. I don't know about you, but the group I shot with and everyone I met was giving it 110%. Does this mean that since I shot well that I will also be called a sandbagger in the Hunter class IF I win? I'm not mad or trying to start something here. But somepeople really need to think before they speak, especially if they are going to say it out loud for everyone to hear. 

Now having said my piece, It was a Great trip, met great people, and can't wait until the next one.

JUSTIN CATTO


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## MrPibb (Apr 10, 2004)

Judgeing from your signature, your by no means a novice. Congratulations on your win and glad to see you enjoyed the ASA venue. ASA will take care of moving people to their appropriate class, thats the way it is designed. Good shootn.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

a pro staff novice? isnt that a contradiction in terms? Im sure you have shot some 3D before under ASA guidelines locally and won too,right? I know Jaime, the guy who finished right at your heels and he has made
more sandbags than the US Marines during Desert Storm.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Mag41- The win out is a great thing. Moves shooters along that need to be moved. I think you are misunderstanding how it works. Bownovice and Open C are the only immediate move out classes, everything else you are moved at the start of the next season. There should be no equipment change(except Hunter to Unlimited IF you wanted to go to a longer stabilizer or you decided to move from a pin class to a scope class).


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I hear this every year and I still do not understand it. People piss and moan all the time about the sandbaggers in Novice and Open C. The rules state that if you win $300 you are IMMEDIATELY moved to another class. And guess what, the prize money for a 1st place finish in either of those 2 classes is ALWAYS more than $300. If you finish in the top 3 more than once, you will have more than $300. 

If there are all these sandbaggers in Novice and Open C then they are NOT winning and that sort of defeats the idea behind sandbagging, doesn't it??


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Yeah, but the whole idea, IMO, is that "novice" is for beginners. Someone shooting in the class MULITPLE years is NOT a novice shooter.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> Yeah, but the whole idea, IMO, is that "novice" is for beginners. Someone shooting in the class MULITPLE years is NOT a novice shooter.


I understand your point. However, if someone is competing in the Bow Novice class and has for the let's say 5 years and never finished in the money, why would you bump them to a higher class?? That doesn't make sense. Why risk losing a shooter that just wants to come out and play?? If you make that shooter move to the 40yd Hunter Class, the will quit going to Pro/Ams all together. 

If the 30 yd Bow Novice class is in their comfort zone, then let them compete. If they win out, then they need to move up. 

The system is in place. It works. Sandbaggers and those that take it serious WILL move or be moved.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

C'mon. Is there that big of a difference from 30 to 40? Someone traveling to a Pro/Am isn't your average club shooter and the extra 10 yrd. shouldn't be that big of a deal. Especially if they are just there to "have fun and play".
Why would someone NOT want to challenge themselves?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> C'mon. Is there that big of a difference from 30 to 40? Someone traveling to a Pro/Am isn't your average club shooter and the extra 10 yrd. shouldn't be that big of a deal. Especially if they are just there to "have fun and play".
> Why would someone NOT want to challenge themselves?


Have you ever been to an ASA Pro/Am and shot Novice?? Because if you had, you would know the answer to that question.

Just in case,The answer is YES, there is that much of a difference in 30 and 40. There are Novice shooters that MISS targets at 30 yds KNOWING the distance. You think that shooter is gonna move to 40 and try and guess how far to shoot?? Not a chance.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

All the more reason NOT to have a bunch of guys tearin' up the range because they shouldn't be in the "Novice" class.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> All the more reason NOT to have a bunch of guys tearin' up the range because they shouldn't be in the "Novice" class.


I don't follow what you are saying.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Are the people pissin' & moanin' about sandbaggers the one's missing the 30 yrd. targets? They may be tired of not having a chance to win money cuz guys shooting in the "novice" class for 5 yrs?


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

Notm to stir the pot, but at paris last year i talked to an Open C shooter who has been an Open C shooter for a number of years...his claim was that he monitors his winnings so as to never win out of OPEN C I followed his career last summer, and he was right on the bubble at the end of the season and went to the Classic in open C. Don't think for a second that this doesn't happen, and there are a LOT of these guys floating in Open C and Bow Novice that shoot there for several years.


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## DBiggers (Nov 17, 2006)

Spoon13 said:


> I hear this every year and I still do not understand it. People piss and moan all the time about the sandbaggers in Novice and Open C. The rules state that if you win $300 you are IMMEDIATELY moved to another class. And guess what, the prize money for a 1st place finish in either of those 2 classes is ALWAYS more than $300. If you finish in the top 3 more than once, you will have more than $300.
> 
> If there are all these sandbaggers in Novice and Open C then they are NOT winning and that sort of defeats the idea behind sandbagging, doesn't it??


+1 Matt, your exactly right. The ASA, truley prevents sandbagging for this very reason. If your competitive enough to be in the money up to $300 then your outa here and up to the next highest class. I myself have only been shooting ASA's now for only 2 years and i'am still shooting in the Open C Class and will continue to do so, until i've won enough to be moved up. And to move myself up to a higher class would seem to me a bit arrogant. So listen at what Matt is telling you and anyone referring to another shooter as a "SandBagger" doesnt' have much of a clue as to how the ASA operates...:wink: Shoot your very best, have fun and quit worring about the next guy..

That's my .02 cents..:thumbs_up


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> Are the people pissin' & moanin' about sandbaggers the one's missing the 30 yrd. targets? They may be tired of not having a chance to win money cuz guys shooting in the "novice" class for 5 yrs?


The guys shooting the Novice class for 5 years, as in my example, are not winning the money either or they wouldn't be in Novice for 5 years.

It is a FACT that a shooter needs to shoot at least 10 up to be anywhere near the top of ANY class in ASA. To only have to hit 5 12's in 40 targets, that's fair. Even usually gets you a little money. That is what it takes.

Why force a shooter to move up in class when they can't meet the criteria for winning in the class they are in??


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## DBiggers (Nov 17, 2006)

Davik said:


> Notm to stir the pot, but at paris last year i talked to an Open C shooter who has been an Open C shooter for a number of years...his claim was that he monitors his winnings so as to never win out of OPEN C I followed his career last summer, and he was right on the bubble at the end of the season and went to the Classic in open C. Don't think for a second that this doesn't happen, and there are a LOT of these guys floating in Open C and Bow Novice that shoot there for several years.


Well that doesn't make any sense, cause whatever he wins carries over from year to year, so its impossibe to stay there long and why go through all the trouble and travel expense if all your going to do is sit quietly in one spot,  i'am sorry but that just plain stupid right there. Your there to compete and to try to do your very best or whats the point in showing up. Thats just :crazy: crazy!!


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Davik said:


> Notm to stir the pot, but at paris last year i talked to an Open C shooter who has been an Open C shooter for a number of years...his claim was that he monitors his winnings so as to never win out of OPEN C I followed his career last summer, and he was right on the bubble at the end of the season and went to the Classic in open C. Don't think for a second that this doesn't happen, and there are a LOT of these guys floating in Open C and Bow Novice that shoot there for several years.


I am not going to deny that in the very least. I DESPISE shooters like that. The reason a shooter does that is because he/she KNOWS they aren't willing to put the work in necessary to be at the next level.

You get out of archery what you put into it. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I will never deny the fact that sandbaggers exist. I know they do. I also know that they are not as good as they think they are. If they were, they wouldn't sandbag. I also believe that sandbagging is not anywhere close to the scale that some people would like you to think it is. For the majority, it's just an excuse as to why they didn't win.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Well the way i see it is the guy who won this didn't sandbag, how could he be called a sandbagger if this is his first ASA shoot and now he is moving up because he won more then $300??
Now had he purposely missed so he wouldn't win over 300 so he could stay in novice at the next shoot, then i would call that sandbagging.
It also looks like he had a few right on his heels........




1 JUSTIN CATTO 16382 432 16 0 
2 JAMIE SELVAGE 34296 428 18 0 
3 NICHOLAS RAY 30081 428 16 0 
4 WESLEY HARWELL 17666 426 13 0 
5 JEFF HUNT 30897 421 14 0 
6 JEREMY ABNER 34279 419 13 0 
7 JAMES MIMS 15021 418 12 0 
8 T.J. VANN 26940 418 9 0 
9 DAVID MYLER 70567 415 12 0 
10 GEORGE DESKINS 31173 412 11 0 
11 CHRIS GRIFFITH 14955 411 10 0 
12 TODD SHIVE 30963 410 12 0 
13 JONATHON WRIGHT 16446 408 7 0 
14 SCOTT MCCLURE 17639 407 10 0 
15 DENNIS GREEN 34230 407 9 0 
16 CHARLIE PORTER 10545 407 8 0 
17 CHAD DAWSON 34291 406 11 0 
18 JOE BAKER 29839 406 10 0 
18 TY CROZIER 13792 406 10 0 
20 BEAU HUNTER 17721 406 9 0 
21 JOHN BOWERSOX 18267 404 8 0 
22 MATTHEW SOWELL 13408 404 7 0 
23 DONALD SCOTT 14838 403 9 0 
24 DONNIE MESSER 34228 403 6 0 
25 JOSEPH ANDROYNA 14047 402 11 0 
26 CHARLES HERRINGTON 14741 402 10 0 
27 VAN ARNOLD 30638 402 8 0 
28 ANTHONY MATTOX 14108 400 7 0 
29 JOE FERRIGO 30620 400 6 0 
30 JOSH RAMSEY 34278 400 5 0 
31 BRANDON DAVIS 19023 399 10 0 
32 CAMERON BRIMLOW 30156 399 8 0 
33 MICHAEL BROZAK 14613 398 6 0 
34 JAMES W LUNDY 2312 396 11 0 
35 ROBERT SIDERS 30652 396 7 0 
36 JONATHAN MOUGHTON 16099 395 10 0 
37 JUSTIN DRISKELL 34299 394 9 0 
38 WESLEY LUKE 28873 394 5 0 
39 CLYDE WILSON 18097 394 4 0 
39 DAVID PARSON 15098 394 4 0 
41 CHRIS JOHNSON 34246 393 8 0 
42 KEVIN TOLLEY 30654 393 6 0 
42 HARRY ROHR 17777 393 6 0 
42 MICHAEL JONES 18030 393 6 0 
45 SETH ANDERSON 16377 392 4 0 
46 SHAWN JONES 34262 391 6 0 
47 LOGAN MC BETH 29489 391 4 0 
48 BEN BROWN 12853 389 9 0 
49 RICHARD MANN 16305 389 7 0 
49 ROBERT HALLMAN 18191 389 7 0 
51 JAMES BROUGHTON 29909 389 4 0 
52 ADAM FERGESON 30078 388 10 0 
53 JOHN CHANDLER 14453 388 6 0 
54 JODY MORGAN 34235 388 2 0 
55 RAY STILLWELL 12958 387 9 0 
56 JAMES KIRKLAND 12049 387 3 0 
56 JASON DAVIDSON 34270 387 3 0 
58 GEORGE MURRAY 30345 386 6 0 
59 JIMMY GUNN 34229 386 5 0 
60 CLARK ALLEN 29517 385 7 0 
61 JOEL COMBS 16096 385 5 0 
62 RICHARD JERSTAD 14308 384 6 0 
63 JASON MCDONALD 18317 384 5 0 
64 ANDY HARDEE 13853 383 9 0 
65 TRAVIS MIMS 14320 383 5 0 
65 WILLIAM GERRALD 70503 383 5 0 
67 GARRETT HANCOCK 12509 382 8 0 
68 STEVEN DOCKERY 19024 382 5 0 
69 TRAVIN C ROBINSON 34292 381 10 0 
70 ROME SMITH 31026 381 4 0 
71 JASON MC GOVERN 14055 381 3 0 
72 DUSTIN ROZIER 13881 380 5 0 
73 WALTER KNOWLES 14056 378 10 0 
74 CHAD NORRELL 30698 378 7 0 
75 ANDREW VINSON 18316 378 5 0 
76 DANIEL REED 34290 378 4 0 
76 RANDALL JONES 13754 378 4 0 
78 BRIAN NOLEN 17884 376 3 0 
79 JOSEPH MOORE 30674 375 4 0 
80 GARY COTHREN 16117 375 3 0 
81 RAY MILLER 13079 375 2 0 
82 KURVIN QUALLS 16461 374 4 0 
83 RUSSELL MILLER 30987 373 6 0 
84 WHITNEY QUALLS 34268 370 3 0 
85 JOSEPH IRVIN 16353 370 2 0 
86 JON COATES 12536 369 4 0 
87 RYAN MILLER 30988 369 0 0 
88 WAYNE MILLER 16270 368 3 0 
89 FRED BEANE 18257 368 1 0 
90 CHARLES ADAMS 28874 367 7 0 
91 KEVIN PITTS 13153 367 2 0 
92 MIKE SASNETT 16304 365 7 0 
93 CODY WOOTEN 34260 365 4 0 
94 RODNEY HALFORD 16408 365 3 0 
95 WILLIAM E WHITE 34287 364 6 0 
96 TERRANCE GAINER 17069 364 3 0 
97 TIM TEAGUE 14775 362 5 0 
98 ERIC WINSTEAD 20440 362 4 0 
99 MIKE LAWRENCE 17589 361 7 0 
100 MICHAEL REVELS 34294 361 6 0 
101 JODY GIBSON 34295 360 3 0 
102 MIKE HURST 16109 359 2 0 
102 JONATHON QUALLS 34269 359 2 0 
104 RICHARD HRITZ 30362 358 7 0 
105 MARK NEWTON 12514 356 4 0 
106 MARC ARNOLD 70563 352 8 0 
107 SAM LEWIS 34245 352 7 0 
108 SCOTT SELF 34252 350 4 0 
109 ROBERT SOWELL 13407 347 3 0 
110 ROBERT MOUGHTON 15884 344 1 0 
111 COLTON JONES 34263 340 0 0 
112 JASON BLAIR 16452 329 4 0 
113 CADE STAFFORD 15234 326 2 0 
114 MICHAEL ROGERS 34233 325 7 0 
115 ETHAN WINSTEAD 22919 324 0 0 
116 SHELBY BENTLEY SR 34274 318 3 0 
117 CHARLES ROCHE 13176 315 3 0 
118 LOUIE NOGEL 34280 303 2 0 
118 KEVIN KOTH 30668 303 2 0 
120 JOHN PURVIS 13836 301 2 0 
121 BRANDON COATES 12484 289 1 0 
122 JOHN BREWER 34257 287 0 0 
123 BOBBY STEVENS 34249 201 3 0 
124 SCOTT LA FOLLETTE 34283 195 4 0 
125 DAN REXRODE 30079 193 2 0 
126 CHARLES DELAY 30679 182 4 0 
127 EDWARD BARNES 30069 176 4 0 
128 KENNETH BOYER 11836 175 2 0 
129 BRIAN JONES 34298 168 1 0


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## eville archer (Feb 20, 2004)

I cant comment for everyone else but I like to challenge myself. I shot a 375 in open C and hope to do even better this year. My goal is to break 400 this year. If you know for a fact you have a good chance of winning then its time to step up to the next level. I say if you are in the top 5-10 then its time to move on. Chances are you are a good shot and the next class up is not gonna effect you too much. Just my 2 cents


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## Robert Sowell (Aug 22, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> Well the way i see it is the guy who won this didn't sandbag, how could he be called a sandbagger if this is his first ASA shoot and now he is moving up because he won more then $300??
> Now had he purposely missed so he wouldn't win over 300 so he could stay in novice at the next shoot, then i would call that sandbagging.
> It also looks like he had a few right on his heels........
> 
> ...


I could have gone all day without seeing that score again. I have shot novice for two years and I finished 109. I guess I am a sandbagger too.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Spoon13 said:


> The guys shooting the Novice class for 5 years, as in my example, are not winning the money either or they wouldn't be in Novice for 5 years.
> 
> It is a FACT that a shooter needs to shoot at least 10 up to be anywhere near the top of ANY class in ASA. To only have to hit 5 12's in 40 targets, that's fair. Even usually gets you a little money. That is what it takes.
> 
> Why force a shooter to move up in class when they can't meet the criteria for winning in the class they are in??


Maybe they are not winning any money because there are to many shooters in the class that should be in Unlimited? I'm not saying anyone should be "forced" to move up, unless by rule the win enough money to be bumped up, but all I'm saying is, IMO it IS sandbagging to sit in Novice for 5 yrs. just so you can put up some good numbers, thump your chest all while your never pushing yourself to get better.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

N2RCHRY said:


> Maybe they are not winning any money because there are to many shooters in the class that should be in Unlimited? I'm not saying anyone should be "forced" to move up, unless by rule the win enough money to be bumped up, but all I'm saying is, IMO it IS sandbagging to sit in Novice for 5 yrs. just so you can put up some good numbers, thump your chest all while your never pushing yourself to get better.


But why sit in Novice if your not winning any money, that makes no sense...

I never shot a ASA venue and was planning on it this year and was gonna enter novice..... But to tell you the truth i might not do it at all now, i would be afraid to win and have the stigmata placed on my head....


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> Maybe they are not winning any money because there are to many shooters in the class that should be in Unlimited? I'm not saying anyone should be "forced" to move up, unless by rule the win enough money to be bumped up, but all I'm saying is, IMO it IS sandbagging to sit in Novice for 5 yrs. just so you can put up some good numbers, thump your chest all while your never pushing yourself to get better.


That's my point. The people that have been in Novice for many years are NOT putting up good numbers. If they were, they wouldn't be in Novice anymore.

Unfortunately there are a LOT of shooters out there that don't take it as serious as we would all believe. I push myself to do the best I can every time out and I believe you are the same. However, we can NOT assume that everyone approaches the game the same way we do.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Robert Sowell said:


> I could have gone all day without seeing that score again. I have shot novice for two years and I finished 109. I guess I am a sandbagger too.


Oh your a bagger all right, I'm on to you...............


I see that there is a lot of sandbagging stuff being dropped, what was the pay outs Robert, so i can check past years and see if there is any truth to this....


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> But why sit in Novice if your not winning any money, that makes no sense...
> 
> I never shot a ASA venue and was planning on it this year and was gonna enter novice..... But to tell you the truth i might not do it at all now, i would be afraid to win and have the stigmata placed on my head....


If you have never shot an ASA Pro/Am, you TRULY qualify for the Novice class and by all means. GO! You'll LOVE IT and if you place real high up. Move up like you should...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bowbuster said:


> But why sit in Novice if your not winning any money, that makes no sense...
> 
> I never shot a ASA venue and was planning on it this year and was gonna enter novice..... But to tell you the truth i might not do it at all now, i would be afraid to win and have the stigmata placed on my head....


Please don't change your mind based on what you see here. It is an experience that you will absolutely LOVE. 

Go, shoot lights out, and enjoy the heck out of yourself. I can GUARANTEE the enjoyment part!!


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## DBiggers (Nov 17, 2006)

:doh: Ooooop's my bad, i was just informed from a very realiable source, that the earnings do not carry over from season to season as i was first informed a while back. So i guess a shooter could sandbag to a degree, but why would you want to,:noidea: unless your simply not good enough to make it to the money and you have no choice but to stay where you are. If thats the case, then your not a sandbagger, your just not willing to put in the work to make youself good enough to place in the top 10 or 15 consistantly enough to win your way out of your class. :bored: Thats all i've got to say about this, because Matt (aka) "Spoon13" is telling it like it is. Keep'em straight Matt...:thumbs_up

Danny :cheers:


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

jwcatto said:


> I heard this comment alot down there. Sandbag this and sandbag that..............*I got called a sandbagger to my face.* All I can do is laugh about it. I shot my VERY FIRST ASA and not knowing what to expect I chose the Novice class..........and won. I made the comment and stand behind it, "I will prolly move up next time regardless of where I finish". I shot as hard as I could, PERIOD. Thats not sandbagging. Sandbagging is when you shoot just enough to get it done using 70% of your skill/horsepower. I don't know about you, but the group I shot with and everyone I met was giving it 110%. Does this mean that since I shot well that I will also be called a sandbagger in the Hunter class IF I win? I'm not mad or trying to start something here. But somepeople really need to think before they speak, especially if they are going to say it out loud for everyone to hear.
> 
> Now having said my piece, It was a Great trip, met great people, and can't wait until the next one.
> 
> JUSTIN CATTO





N2RCHRY said:


> If you have never shot an ASA Pro/Am, you TRULY qualify for the Novice class and by all means. GO! You'll LOVE IT and if you place real high up. Move up like you should...


That's how i was kind of looking at it, but look at the guy who won it. In his post it says he was called a sandbagger to his face!!!!!

To me that sounds like sore losers, but i wasnt there and don't know the manner in which it was said...

But i know me and if I had someone say that to my face in a derogatory tone, I would get upset...:set1_punch:
Do they have an etiquette rule at these shoots???

I am new to the 3D seen this year and i am enjoying it a lot, i feel i shoot well with my rig..
But that is one of the reasons I thought about novice or hunter, I don't have scopes, log stabs and all the bells and whistles so to say..
I use what i hunt with right down to the arrow, it is what i want to become more proficient with from a bowhunting aspect...

I am keeping all my scores right now and figured i would let that determine what class I enter, don't get me wrong, i want to go into a class that i feel I have a chance at winning. But I also don't want to be shooting against a person who is fairly new to the sport, that wouldn't sit right with me as far as fairness...

A week before I enter for my first ASA, I will post my scores up to that point and have y'all help me pick my class..........


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> Please don't change your mind based on what you see here. It is an experience that you will absolutely LOVE.
> 
> Go, shoot lights out, and enjoy the heck out of yourself. I can GUARANTEE the enjoyment part!!


I plan on it bud, I am looking forward to the fun, not the money.. I have a day job that pays the bills, well most of the time...

I like to get out and meet new folks and shoot my bow, that's the push for me.. If i come in last place and had fun doing it, so be it.....


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bowbuster said:


> That's how i was kind of looking at it, but look at the guy who won it. In his post it says he was called a sandbagger to his face!!!!!
> 
> To me that sounds like sore losers, but i wasnt there and don't know the manner in which it was said...
> 
> ...


Here's the way I'll boil it down for you.

Bow Novice is a 30 yd max with known distances both days.
Hunter Class is a 40 yd max with unknown Saturday and Known Sunday.
Once daylight savings time hits, you will most likely see Bow Novice and Open C shoot BOTH rounds Saturday.

Not knowing how the class is structured where you shoot, if you feel comfortable judging yardage out to 40 yds, then by all means shoot Hunter class. If you are not a s sure about yardage judging or are not confinfident shooting out to 40, then shoot Bow Novice. 

To me it is important to shoot where you feel the most comfortable, especially since it will be your first ASA Pro/Am, not where anybody else feels you should be. If you take the game serious and put in the work, success will find you, no matter what class you shoot.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> Here's the way I'll boil it down for you.
> 
> Bow Novice is a 30 yd max with known distances both days.
> Hunter Class is a 40 yd max with unknown Saturday and Known Sunday.
> ...



That's some real sound advice right there, makes a lot of sense... Thanks for taking the time to post that........:thumb:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bowbuster said:


> That's some real sound advice right there, makes a lot of sense... Thanks for taking the time to post that........:thumb:


No problem. That's what we're here for. Archer Helping Archers. Or something like that.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

Anybody who can shoot close to even in NOVICE is capable of 375+ game in Hunter & Open C with target sight/stab. Opinions are like*******.I would kick everybody out of Novice who shot 400. Anybody shooting 380+ really arent novices.


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

MrPibb said:


> Judgeing from your signature, your by no means a novice.


My signature says nothing about my shooting ability. I am open and honest about my shooting ability to all of the companies, they all knew where I was shooting at. What you can tell by my signature is that I am an honest and very friendly " people person". I speak well and represent only the products I truely believe in, PERIOD. If you have met me in person, you know exactly what I am talking about, its not a show, its how I was raised and who I am, a 32 year old Christian High School History teacher who has shot precision rifle for years and took that experience and put it into the Archery venue. 

If someone is upset at what I did, I will make no apologies, just encourage them to practice more and extend a friendly hand to help if possible. 


Now onto the sandbagging comment, This comment was made by a shooter who will remain nameless ( but yes, I know who you are) and he said the comment as he turned around to leave after approaching me about my bow setup. It came as no suprise to me to hear a comment like that come from someone of his character, soooo, like an adult i ignored it and then went and shot my round to the BEST of my ability.


To anyone who is contimplating going to an ASA event, DO IT!!!!!
No lie it was one of the best times I have had in a few years. Forget the scores and the payout, all of that will fade away quickly, I made some friendships that will last a lifetime.

Pray Hard, Shoot Straight, and most importantly, live the golden rule,
Thanks for reading,
JUSTIN CATTO


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> Anybody who can shoot close to even in NOVICE is capable of 375+ game in Hunter & Open C with target sight/stab. Opinions are like*******.I would kick everybody out of Novice who shot 400. Anybody shooting 380+ really arent novices.


And a 375 would have gotten you a 41st place finish in Hunter and a 72nd place finish in Open C. 

Yep, no doubt about it, those shooters are definitely in the wrong class.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> Anybody who can shoot close to even in NOVICE is capable of 375+ game in Hunter & Open C with target sight/stab. Opinions are like*******.I would kick everybody out of Novice who shot 400. Anybody shooting 380+ really arent novices.


I agree and especially if they are on a bow prostaff. How in the heck can you be a novice and be sponsored by all those companies? That just isn't right. I shot my first ASA this past weekend after being out of the game for 15 years. I mainly shot IBO. I loved the ASA format; they put on a great tournament. I signed up for Bowhunter class. Could've shot Novice, but that wouldn't have been right. Novice is defined by dictionary.com as _a person new to a particular occupation, activity, etc.; apprentice; beginner; tyro_. Someone tell me how Catto fit that description. It really sucks for all the true Novices when shooting against guys like that. Thats my two cents worth.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

shamlin said:


> I agree and especially if they are on a bow prostaff. How in the heck can you be a novice and be sponsored by all those companies? That just isn't right. I shot my first ASA this past weekend after being out of the game for 15 years. I mainly shot IBO. I loved the ASA format; they put on a great tournament. I signed up for Bowhunter class. Could've shot Novice, but that wouldn't have been right. Novice is defined by dictionary.com as _a person new to a particular occupation, activity, etc.; apprentice; beginner; tyro_. Someone tell me how Catto fit that description. It really sucks for all the true Novices when shooting against guys like that. Thats my two cents worth.


If he came in at say 50th place, would his signature have mattered to you then?? Just because someone is on a pro Staff doesn't make them an awesome shooter.. The word "Pro" in Pro Staff means promoter, it has nothing to do with his shooting ability.. What about the guy who finished behind him 4 down, he had 2 more 12's then he did. Is he a cheat as well?

I see your point, but it's not like he has been in ASA for years and is hanging out in Novice.. This was his first shoot, so yes, he is a novice to the ASA venue and now he will be moved up in class..

Are the payouts really that big at these events to create so much animosity, I don't know, so i am asking...
I play professional pool at a high level, I have seen many sandbaggers over the years. In our sport we call them sharks and it's all about the money..

I don't see why a person would pay to drive out of state to a tournament where his expenses would be much grater then his winnings, that would not make sense...


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

I started competitive archery last year...............I guess I should shoot pro!
Heck one of the guys I shot with has been in the novice class for* 5 years* I guess he should be shooting pro too. 


The Merriam Webster dictionary defines novice as:_inexperienced or untrained_
Never been trained (self taught), never shot a big tournament, first time ever shot an ASA, IBO, or anything else bigger than a club level shoot, which by the way I am not even a member of a friggin club. What class would you like me to shoot in??

This is getting a bit ridiculous, I told you guys that I did not know what to expect and after seeing the layout I would have voluntarily moved up even if I didn't win. I didn't come on here bragging about winning, I came to answer the initial question and comment about those who call others " sandbaggers". 


Look for me in the hunter class in the April ASA, if you see me say hi and introduce yourself. I promise it will be much more constructive than calling people names and arguing on the internet.


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

Bowbuster said:


> Just because someone is on a pro Staff doesn't make them an awesome shooter.. The word "Pro" in Pro Staff means promoter, it has nothing to do with his shooting ability.. What about the guy who finished behind him 4 down, he had 2 more 12's then he did. Is he a cheat as well?



Thank you, If someone doesn't understand this then I am going to go to the dictionary and look up the definition of dense.


Oh and just so you know, Some of the money I won is being donated to one of my students families who recently lost their house. Some of you guys out there really have no clue.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

jwcatto said:


> I started competitive archery last year...............*I guess I should shoot pro!*Heck one of the guys I shot with has been in the novice class for* 5 years* I guess he should be shooting pro too.
> 
> 
> The Merriam Webster dictionary defines novice as:_inexperienced or untrained_
> ...


Why are you going to shoot in hunter if you say you should shoot in "Pro"..
What a sandbagger you are!!!!!!


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

Bowbuster said:


> If he came in at say 50th place, would his signature have mattered to you then?? Just because someone is on a pro Staff doesn't make them an awesome shooter.. The word "Pro" in Pro Staff means promoter, it has nothing to do with his shooting ability.. What about the guy who finished behind him 4 down, he had 2 more 12's then he did. Is he a cheat as well?
> 
> I see your point, but it's not like he has been in ASA for years and is hanging out in Novice.. This was his first shoot, so yes, he is a novice to the ASA venue and now he will be moved up in class..
> 
> ...


I ask this; did he know what he was doing when he signed up? Did he ask himself do I truly know what I am doing? Am I too good of a shooter to call myself a Novice? I asked those questions and did the right thing......Bowhunter.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

shamlin said:


> I ask this; did he know what he was doing when he signed up? Did he ask himself do I truly know what I am doing? Am I too good of a shooter to call myself a Novice? I asked those questions and did the right thing......Bowhunter.


Well look at it this way, next time he shoots an ASA event, you will both be in the same sand box. He broke no rules, and is moving up the ladder as the rules dictate.

Is it what you would have done, apparently not. That doesn't make it wrong.


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## JuniorsOutdoor (Apr 11, 2008)

I don't get this. I just started shooting (besides hunting) in July and because I shot a 404 I shouldn't be shooting in Novice? Makes no sense, bro. I worked my tail in preparation for this one shoot. However I do agree that quite a few quys shouldn't have been there. Novice's don't wear prostaff shirts or get free equipment. I was a bit put off by shooting against guys who were anything but novice's. Maybe to ASA they were newb's, but not to 3d.



Kill Shill said:


> Anybody who can shoot close to even in NOVICE is capable of 375+ game in Hunter & Open C with target sight/stab. Opinions are like*******.I would kick everybody out of Novice who shot 400. Anybody shooting 380+ really arent novices.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

JohnBSox said:


> I don't get this. I just started shooting (besides hunting) in July and because I shot a 404 I shouldn't be shooting in Novice? Makes no sense, bro. I worked my tail in preparation for this one shoot. However I do agree that quite a few quys shouldn't have been there. Novice's don't wear prostaff shirts or get free equipment. I was a bit put off by shooting against guys who were anything but novice's. Maybe to ASA they were newb's, but not to 3d.


So what your saying is that if i put on a police uniform, I'm a cop. Or if i wear a suit that I am a professional....

Pro Staff wear shirts from the company who they shoot for, for advertisement!! They are a walking billboard for a company and that is why they get free stuff, they promote their product.. It doesn't mean they are any better then a guy who is in a plain T Shirt...

Jeeezzz maybe he should have wore a skirt with high heels, then folks wouldn't be posting about being beat by a guy in drag!!!!!!!


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

Just in case you were wondering who I was...........

Also, I paid for everything I used. NOTHING FREE!!
200.00 used bow
50.00 used sight
15.00 stabilizer
15.00 release.

No Pro shooter shirt.
That shirt is from my car club and the visor was free from Gold Tip


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

JohnBSox said:


> I don't get this. I just started shooting (besides hunting) in July and because I shot a 404 I shouldn't be shooting in Novice? Makes no sense, bro. I worked my tail in preparation for this one shoot. However I do agree that quite a few quys shouldn't have been there. Novice's don't wear prostaff shirts or get free equipment. I was a bit put off by shooting against guys who were anything but novice's. Maybe to ASA they were newb's, but not to 3d.


There are some folks that would like YOU to believe that. Just keep doin what your doin and you will either shoot your way out of the class or you will decide one day that you need the challenge of something more.



Bowbuster said:


> So what your saying is that if i put on a police uniform, I'm a cop. Or if i wear a suit that I am a professional....
> 
> Pro Staff wear shirts from the company who they shoot for, for advertisement!! They are a walking billboard for a company and that is why they get free stuff, they promote their product.. It doesn't mean they are any better then a guy who is in a plain T Shirt...
> 
> Jeeezzz maybe he should have wore a skirt with high heels, then folks wouldn't be posting about being beat by a guy in drag!!!!!!!


Staff Shooter shirts is one of the most common misconceptions in archery today. A lot of people feel as though if you wear a Staff shirt, then you are better than they are. There are even some that have Staff shirts that think they are better than everyone else. Just because someone wears a shirt that has the name of a bow manufacturer on it does not mean that his/her arrow is any more likely to find the 12 ring than someone who doesn't have a Staff shirt. We all have to make the shots. I try and make any judgments based on the person IN the shirt, not the shirt itself.


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

A few friends I made:
My first 14. ( never shot at one before this weekend)
Me getting a check :-')


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> There are some folks that would like YOU to believe that. Just keep doin what your doin and you will either shoot your way out of the class or you will decide one day that you need the challenge of something more.
> 
> 
> 
> Staff Shooter shirts is one of the most common misconceptions in archery today. A lot of people feel as though if you wear a Staff shirt, then you are better than they are. There are even some that have Staff shirts that think they are better than everyone else. Just because someone wears a shirt that has the name of a bow manufacturer on it does not mean that his/her arrow is any more likely to find the 12 ring than someone who doesn't have a Staff shirt. We all have to make the shots. I try and make any judgments based on the person IN the shirt, not the shirt itself.


Exactly right..........:thumb:


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

jwcatto said:


> A few friends I made:
> My first 14. ( never shot at one before this weekend)
> Me getting a check :-')


Nice pics, thanks for sharing and good shooting.....


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> So what your saying is that if i put on a police uniform, I'm a cop. Or if i wear a suit that I am a professional....
> 
> Pro Staff wear shirts from the company who they shoot for, for advertisement!! They are a walking billboard for a company and that is why they get free stuff, they promote their product.. It doesn't mean they are any better then a guy who is in a plain T Shirt...
> 
> Jeeezzz maybe he should have wore a skirt with high heels, then folks wouldn't be posting about being beat by a guy in drag!!!!!!!


You throw out some pretty silly comparisons. 
Can't you see the reasoning some of the guys are getting at? Some feel someone who shoots good enough to even have sponsors has no business shooting in the Novice class.
But hey, if that's the class they want to shoot, so be it.
Myself, I want to challenge myself and see what I can do against the big dawgs. 
The three times I went to vegas I shot the Championship class cuz I didn't think placing in the 2nd, 5th or 10th flight for that matter was much to brag about.
I have to admit, I haven't shot an ASA tourny in a few yrs. Not that I don't want to but I can only do so many tournaments a year and I stopped traveling out state to concentrate on state level stuff, but when I did shoot ASA I started out in Open A then moved up to Semi. Not because I won alot of money, because I felt I could learn more from moving up. Plus, like I said. A top ten in Semi meant ALOT more than a top ten in ANY other class!(excluding Pro ofcourse...LOL)
All of this is just opinions. I don't personally look down on anyone for shooting the class they choose. It's all for fun right?:shade:


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

jwcatto said:


> Just in case you were wondering who I was...........
> 
> Also, I paid for everything I used. NOTHING FREE!!
> 200.00 used bow
> ...





N2RCHRY said:


> You throw out some pretty silly comparisons.
> Can't you see the reasoning some of the guys are getting at? Some feel someone who shoots good enough to even have sponsors has no business shooting in the Novice class.
> But hey, if that's the class they want to shoot, so be it.
> Myself, I want to challenge myself and see what I can do against the big dawgs.
> ...


What is silly is that the guy who won it is getting crap because of his signature.. The guy shot well in his first ASA shoot and most are trying to make him feel like garbage, all because he won $326.00 dollars. Which IMHO would leave me to believe is less then what he invested to go on the trip. That I don't know because I am not friends with him and don't know how much he spent.. So that is just an assumption based on the fact that he had to travel from another state..

But you are right, that was a silly comparison that i posted earlier..
it was pretty weak, but it was all i had...:shade:


I'm starting out in Pro for sure now and i am gonna wear a tutu so i don't scare the Pro's in Pro shirts and that way when i win it i won't be ridiculed for winning....


I truly see the point some are trying to make about not going into Novice if you know how to shoot well, I truly do.. But the fact that they are saying that because he is on a "pro staff" he should not go into novice, well that is absurd...


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> I'm starting out in Pro for sure now and i am gonna wear a tutu so i don't scare the Pro's in Pro shirts and that way when i win it i won't be ridiculed for winning....


I'd almost pay money to see that...LOL
It's all good man. The guy shot great and deserves to be congratulated! Which I do, Congrats Justin!


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## mrfingers (Feb 15, 2008)

I must be the real sandbagging machine. I shot 24 up on saturday for the lead over catto by 2 points. However sunday was a different day all together. I got to my 11th target and I was another 10 points up. Well when I got to 12th target I shot my first 8. Hmmmmm? Go to my 13th and the arrow looked like a f15 doing barrel rolls down range for another 8. Well on that 11th target my arrow had been hit and broke the back of one vane loose. At this point I can see the championship going away from me and it got in my head and I finished out 2 up. Novice? well if I wasn't I would have checked that arrow a lot more closely when it got hit and it would have never got to my head. 

So at one point in this shoot I was 30 points up in novice but I finished out 4th. 

Novice or not? Zero sponsors and some used ebay and A.T. equipment. This was also my first ASA event.


Wes


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

mrfingers said:


> I must be the real sandbagging machine. I shot 24 up on saturday for the lead over catto by 2 points. However sunday was a different day all together. I got to my 11th target and I was another 10 points up. Well when I got to 12th target I shot my first 8. Hmmmmm? Go to my 13th and the arrow looked like a f15 doing barrel rolls down range for another 8. Well on that 11th target my arrow had been hit and broke the back of one vane loose. At this point I can see the championship going away from me and it got in my head and I finished out 2 up. Novice? well if I wasn't I would have checked that arrow a lot more closely when it got hit and it would have never got to my head.
> 
> So at one point in this shoot I was 30 points up in novice but I finished out 4th.
> 
> ...


Do you shoot like that at your local shoots? 24 up is pretty good. 4th is great also. Do you feel you should move up a class?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

mrfingers said:


> I must be the real sandbagging machine. I shot 24 up on saturday for the lead over catto by 2 points. However sunday was a different day all together. I got to my 11th target and I was another 10 points up. Well when I got to 12th target I shot my first 8. Hmmmmm? Go to my 13th and the arrow looked like a f15 doing barrel rolls down range for another 8. Well on that 11th target my arrow had been hit and broke the back of one vane loose. At this point I can see the championship going away from me and it got in my head and I finished out 2 up. Novice? well if I wasn't I would have checked that arrow a lot more closely when it got hit and it would have never got to my head.
> 
> So at one point in this shoot I was 30 points up in novice but I finished out 4th.
> 
> ...


There is a lot more to 3D than just shooting 12s and 14s. Some people fail to realize that. You have learned a valuable lesson that WILL make the difference one day.


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## ChadLister (Jan 28, 2009)

I dont think its right to move someone up by the amount of money someone wins, maybe if the winner shot so many above second place then that would be a diffrent story.


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## ChadLister (Jan 28, 2009)

jwcatto said:


> A few friends I made:
> My first 14. ( never shot at one before this weekend)
> Me getting a check :-')


congrats on your first 14?

keep up the good shooting.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I suppose I understand. 
It seems as if everyones motives will be question if they happen to be successful. It is a shame that the world is so cynical.
I only came back to the competition scene (after a 25 year absence) last year to encourage my son, who is just getting his feet wet in College archery. Liberty University just formed a 3D archery club, and named him President. 
Being a 50 year old grandfather, I found that I was still able to shoot well, win tournaments and have fun in the process. The thing is, I cannot afford to outfit myself to compete in a class other than HC. I guess I can shoot my HC rig in there an hope for the best.
I will not try to pretend I am just shooting for fun, cause I want to win if I can. 

Thank you for helping me understand the theory behind the rules.


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## JuniorsOutdoor (Apr 11, 2008)

My point is that if you are a novice you are a novice, and to my knowledge most novices don't get picked to be "pro staff". Maybe some companies do it that way, but again I'm still a rookie and maybe my perception of how "pro staff" are chosen is off. There are lots of other places to shoot and compete besides ASA competition so it would be very easy for some one who is not novice to come to their first ASA shoot, enter Bow Novice, and clean up.

With all that said, I understand the rules and don't think there is a problem with them. I think that earning your way out of the class is the way to do it. I guess my problem is more with the name, Bow Novice. Is it for novices or is it for anyone who hasn't earned their way out of the class yet? It definitely trashed my expectations, being a first timer, to be shooting against guys that were anything but novice. In my opinion, Bow novice is the class that novices should be shooting in, but I see now it is not a novice class. Hope that makes sense. Next time, I'll know what to expect and will do my best to kick their you know what. :wink: Honestly, I had a great time and can't wait to do it again.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Yeah, to be honest, it should be called something other than "novice" but beginner sure isn't it either.
Maybe Bowhunter A, B & Bowhunter Unlimited instead of Hunter, Novice and Unlimited? With the same yardages applying...


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## JuniorsOutdoor (Apr 11, 2008)

I think you are right. I could get behind that.


N2RCHRY said:


> Yeah, to be honest, it should be called something other than "novice" but beginner sure isn't it either.
> Maybe Bowhunter A, B & Bowhunter Unlimited instead of Hunter, Novice and Unlimited? With the same yardages applying...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

JohnBSox said:


> My point is that if you are a novice you are a novice, and to my knowledge most novices don't get picked to be "pro staff". Maybe some companies do it that way, but again I'm still a rookie and maybe my perception of how "pro staff" are chosen is off. There are lots of other places to shoot and compete besides ASA competition so it would be very easy for some one who is not novice to come to their first ASA shoot, enter Bow Novice, and clean up.
> 
> With all that said, I understand the rules and don't think there is a problem with them. I think that earning your way out of the class is the way to do it. I guess my problem is more with the name, Bow Novice. Is it for novices or is it for anyone who hasn't earned their way out of the class yet? It definitely trashed my expectations, being a first timer, to be shooting against guys that were anything but novice. In my opinion, Bow novice is the class that novices should be shooting in, but I see now it is not a novice class. Hope that makes sense. Next time, I'll know what to expect and will do my best to kick their you know what. :wink: Honestly, I had a great time and can't wait to do it again.


This might help out a bit. 

Not everyone with a Staff shirt is a FACTORY SUPPORTED shooter. 

In 2007 I shot Novice class. When I went to the Classic there were two shooters in my group that wore Hoyt staff shooter shirts. However they were NOT Factory shooters. The shot for their local shop that was a Hoyt dealer. They had some deal through the shop to shoot Hoyt bows and they wore Hoyt shirts. They were promoting their local shop and the bows that the dealer carried.

I shoot for my local shop. I get a deal on the bows I buy from there, in return, I am supposed to promote that dealer and the sport of archery in a positive light. It is more effective at the local level because I can't expect people at ASA Pro/Ams and people here on AT to drive to Biscoe, NC and see Bob at Bob's Sporting Goods (even though I wish you would).

Every shop and every manufacturer is different. I can't necessarily say that the above is the case with EVERY shooter out there with a shirt, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of shooters fall into that category. Your not going to see much Factory support until you get to Semi-Pro or Pro with limited exceptions.

My apologies for such a long post. I just really didn't know how to say it any other way.

Matt


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## redfish (Jul 13, 2005)

Robert Sowell said:


> I could have gone all day without seeing that score again. I have shot novice for two years and I finished 109. I guess I am a sandbagger too.


+1 ukey:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> Yeah, to be honest, it should be called something other than "novice" but beginner sure isn't it either.
> Maybe Bowhunter A, B & Bowhunter Unlimited instead of Hunter, Novice and Unlimited? With the same yardages applying...


If they called it Red, White, and Blue it wouldn't change anything but the name. If that is the point, why argue with semantics??


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## JuniorsOutdoor (Apr 11, 2008)

The point is that it isn't necessarily a strictly novice class, so why call it Bow Novice? So, yes it is semantics. Why don't we call Open C...Open Novice? It doesn't accurately describe the class.


Spoon13 said:


> If they called it Red, White, and Blue it wouldn't change anything but the name. If that is the point, why argue with semantics??


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## Big Johnc (Sep 2, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> Anybody who can shoot close to even in NOVICE is capable of 375+ game in Hunter & Open C with target sight/stab. Opinions are like*******.I would kick everybody out of Novice who shot 400. Anybody shooting 380+ really arent novices.


 I shot the best I could 53 is where I landed. I look at it as if I can't shoot up at 30 known yards then why move up to half & half 40 yards? I told myself that if I shot Up I would move up. Well I’m not moving. This is only my 2nd year in 3D.


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## FLDartonGuy (Jul 23, 2008)

Well this is just my 2 cents. It is what it is. Yes there are some people who probably shouldn't be shooting in that class, but you can't really ***** about it.

I am still a first year shooter. I shot a couple of ASA shoots last year in the novice class and all the local and state stuff in that class. To this day I still haven't owned my bow for a year.

What I have done is move myself up to the hunter class. 1 because I truly believe that class should be for the first year shooter and 2 because I think it will help me as a shooter

I shot like crud in gainesville last weekend, ended up like 30 down or something but at the end of the day I use that to try to become better.

Thanks for reading


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## jonfinnell (Nov 26, 2008)

*New to the sport*

I shot for a year when I was 16 and hadn't shot a bow until 3 months ago when my son's talked me into trying it out again.. It's been 3 months, and 3 bow upgrades since then. We shoot in a weekly 300 league and are trying to hit any local 3d tournament we can. I signed up for novice at the local tourney 30 targets, and shot a 322 and won. Honestly during the shoot, I felt since I was shooting from the same stake as my 15 year old son shooting in young adult class that it seemed pretty close. And maybe I should have signed up for bowhunters class. But then I got to thinking, everyone that I am shooting against is shooting from the same distance and I honestly have no idea what to expect in the competition. I am now wrestling with the idea of weather to keep shooting in that class with that local club and try to score well toward thier shooter of the year award for each class. Or if I should move up because it feels close to me. 

Curious to hear any thoughts on the subject from anyone, and would also like to find out where and how I could sign up to do an actual ASA shoot... have no idea how to get into that..


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Well I have read through a bit of this thread......and.....well..... First off, Im a little confused by:

Mitch, why are you worried about someone that shot in bow novice, when you don't even shoot ASA. Or anymore that is. 

So, people want to have the name of the class changed, Ok. I will tell you what. Give me some suggestions, I will send them on and we can see about having a vote to change it. Want to call it Bowhunter? for example.



The person came he shot great, followed the rules, won over 300 dollars. and now having to move to either hunter, or Open C. Great job btw Justin. 


If you have an issue with anything contact one of your ASA reps. We are out to help any archer we can, to the best of our ablity.


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## NCSUarcher (Feb 14, 2005)

*My 2 cents*

Wow there are a lot of points, issues, misconceptions, ideas, complaints, and problem in these 2 pages I will try to hit a few of them with my own opinion. It is human nature especially male human nature to want to compete and want to win. If 95% of us honestly ask ourselves why we go to a big tournament it is 1st to WIN, and win money and an award and recognition. It is second for fun, fellowship, and the art of competition. Truthfully guys ask yourself, it's ok it's our nature as men and human beings for that matter.

If you see an issue with an archer or have suspitions or know someone from your state or local area not shooting in the right class, report it to ASA. Being an organization, policing it is hard and it requires help. Be serious about it and honest, not spiteful and have them look into it (which they should if there is validity). They should be asking the state reps to help police this organization and all archers to report cheating. It's just like calling the real Police to report a crime, they are not everywhere or see everything they need our help.

Anyone shooting a huge event like ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA, or FITA puts on will be a little intemidated by the glitz, glamour, crowd, and all the pretty collared shirts with names on it. So even if you kick butt locally you are now a little fish in a big pond. It is ok to start off at the bottom or slow and work your way to where ever it is you want to be or the organization says you should be for fairness of the sport.

Quickly, wearing shirts with a lot of names means nothing unless you have a signed contract with a company that gives you a check on a regular basis, just for signing the contract, kind of like a job.

Novice shoots 30yrds that is beginners, Pro's shoot 50yrds. 20 yrds difference, so yes a 10 yard jump with different rules is a huge difference! If it wasn't then the Pro's, the best in the world would be shooting 80 to 100yrds to prove they are the best. But that is not the case. Heck a five yrd difference makes a big impact on a shooter both mentally and physically.

Sandbagging and moving up. ASA is doing a good job at making sandbagging a non issue and moving up shooters as needed. Can they do more yes. They are a very open organization to change and suggestion. Complaining to other shooters or on here does nothing. Talk to someone affiliatied with ASA in an objective manner with an issue and keep on it to see what the results may be.

Sorry such a long post I am not widely known on here or in the archery world but sometimes I like to put it all out there. I have shot Open C for three years and never shot a 400 round nationally. Locally I have done well and moved up locally to a 50 yrd class, because we don't have a 45 yrd class, and plan on shooting the K45 in Augusta. I have chosen that becuase I think it will be fun, it's new and different, I think I can do well according to my standards, and in no way do I think I will beat Cody Thompson, that young man is amazing, but I will still compete knowing that fact.

Have fun guys, this is not our jobs, heck even the real Pro's have day jobs, and farms that they work on. This is a sport be competitive and worry about yourself not everyone else, have FUN or don't go and ruin it for others. That's it I know you are tired of reading. :teeth::smile:


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## NCSUarcher (Feb 14, 2005)

Way to stir the pot Matt, LOL!!! :mg::teeth::smile:


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

All I'll say is CONGRATS Justin and Wes. Great finally meeting you.
Charlie


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

the solution is simple.

The grave for ''Limited" Class is dug. Give that class the coup de gras .

Create 2 Hunter classes; "Hunter A", ALL Unmarked 40 yd max. & make the existing Hunter Class rules "Hunter B". 

Anybody shoots even or better in "NOVICE" gets an automatic heavy duty steel toe boot to "Hunter B" or "Open C" depending on what type of sight and stab he screws on his bow.
If the ASA did that, then there is no reason to call the ASA po-po and the 'sandbagger' issue could be thrown in the same whole as the "Limited" class


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

bhtr3d, this is a discussion board with people giving OPINIONS. Nothing more. I'm not "worried" about ANY class. I DO plan on shooting some more ASA in the future and because I haven't shot a Pro/AM in a few yrs I COULD sign up in open B or C.(I think, may be wrong) Would that be right? 
What class do you shot, not sure if we've met is the only reason I ask?
Sorry If it came off as "complaining"...


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

and when 'Hunter B' guys shoot even or more also get bumped to 'Hunter A':darkbeer:


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

I thought that the ASA did a great job putting on the shoot. All of the officials I met were more than happy to answer questions. Almost all of the people I met were fantastic ( there were a few exceptions), and over all I had a great time. I plan on going to 3 more of the shoots and I will be in the hunter class which makes sense.


I can understand the veiwpoint of if you can shoot even that you are not novice, it makes sense. BUT, I think the system they have for moving people out is fine. Once you winn 300.00 you are out, PERIOD. I was under the idea that it was 300.00 TOTAL, regardless of how long it took you to get there, if it is 300.00 a year, then maybe that should be changed but we are down to splitting hairs. 

No matter what we or the ASA does, it will never satisfy everyone. At the end of the day, be happy for the people that won and don't dimish their accomplishment because of you own shortcomings ( sportsmanship). I wish all of you the best of luck in the upcoming shoots and all of your endeavors.

JC


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

There are those people who no matter how long they shoot Bownovice would never win a dime. They don't have the desire to be a Pro and just enjoy shooting. As long as they are not winning money, they are CONTRIBUTING to the payback leave them alone. Why force them to move out of Novice to Hunter when they are not competitive. What purpose would it serve to have them shoot 40 yards and judge yardage on half the targets. End result will be they will stop coming and ASA loses a shooter..............Now for those folks who shoot Bownovice and Open C that have been shooting for a while and winning in other venues get out of the "novice" classes. Back a few years ago there was an NFAA Pro who thought he should be able to shoot Bownovice because he had a hard time with yardage. He won a couple of ProAms and was Shooter of the Year(they had SOY for Bownovice back then). I wonder what scores he would have shot if it would have been known yardage back then?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> the solution is simple.
> 
> The grave for ''Limited" Class is dug. Give that class the coup de gras .
> 
> ...


I'm gonna operate in the assumption that you really aren't concerned for the fingers guys (Limited) and are really talking about the 45 yd pins class (Unlimited). 

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of shooters feel as if since the only difference between Unlimited and Semi-Pro is the sight, that they would rather shoot a scope than pins. Besides, the only classes above those are Pro classes. How much did the guy in Pro pins class win last year?? Who won Open Pro Shooter of the Year last year?? I bet a lot of people know that one.

ASA is slanted towards the Open classes. That's where they put the money. The slow demise of the Unlimited class has nothing to do with how many people are in the Novice class or Hunter class. 

You say that people shooting close to even don't belong in Novice is unfair to the rest. Implementing a strict "heavy duty steel-toed boot" move up system is just as unfair. 

Not everyone desires to or is capable of moving up the ladder. Archery should be an "All Inclusive" sport. Anybody that wants to show should be able to play regardless of skill level or ambition. To sit back and say that people should be moved if they shoot even, even if only once, is just as irresponsible as those that drop points intentionally to stay in a class. 

Are there people that sandbag?? Yes and you will never hear me deny it. Is it as wide spread as some would like you to think?? Absolutely NOT. Just because someone wins Novice doesn't make them a sandbagger. Somebody has to win, no matter what.

The system is in place, let it work.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

Im sorry,unlimited?


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## eville archer (Feb 20, 2004)

Why not change it from 300.00 to 200.00. This would move some people up and make room for some of the guys just out of the money. You could also make a rule that shooting 10 up moves you to the next class. Just some thoughts here. Good luck on the trail gentleman.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

18 shooters in Unlimited, let them go Open or Hunter A.
Having a Novice, 1/2 known 40 yd.Hunter B and 40 yd all unmarked Hunter A class makes a more logical progression based on the dwindling Unlimited class and the way the shoots are trending. 
There should be more stimulus or a rule to get 390+ shooters out of Novice quicker.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Kill shill there were 7 Limited shooters should ASA make them move. How about Traditional there were only 18 of them maybe they should lay down their sticks and shoot a compound................ASA is trying to give more folks what they want. What does it matter if the pins class is split three ways?? Are you the one who has to set three ranges instead of one to accommodate them? I like the ASA system at least they try to get folks in the right classes. Someone my sneak in the first time and shoot "Novice" but if they win out they are gone for good because the computer never forgets.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

I meant "Unlimited'' ,sorry.Bubba, I know what your saying. Im talking about 3 compound release classes. Hunter class 105 shooters, Novice class about 130 and Unlimited class 18. Im still talkin 3 classes. Im a Hunter who finished in the bottom of the top 1/3rd thanks to two 5's on the unmarked 1/2. I would like to see an all unmarked Hunter class. I would consider moving to Unlimited if it had 3 times the shooters it now has in it.The few Unlimited guys shoot target stabs and pins. all they would have to do is decide to go with a 12"or a target sight and move to the proposed Hunter A or Open B. it would balance things out more between the classes and make a more fun,fair,challenging and competitive enviroment based on todays scores/scoring rules(ie14s etc)and shooters class choices along with a 400 kick up rule in Novice and Hunter B.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> 18 shooters in Unlimited, let them go Open or Hunter A.
> Having a Novice, 1/2 known 40 yd.Hunter B and 40 yd all unmarked Hunter A class makes a more logical progression based on the dwindling Unlimited class and the way the shoots are trending.
> There should be more stimulus or a rule to get 390+ shooters out of Novice quicker.


Why move them quicker?? What problem is being solved?? 390 in Bow Novice at Florida would have gotten a 47th place finish. What is being accomplished by moving the 47th place finisher out of the class?? 

I am willing to bet that there are shooters right around that mark that have been in Bow Novice for years and NEVER won a dime doing it. What are the hurting?? If you force those shooters to move to Hunter Class, several will NOT shoot and stay home. That is NOT what 3D archery is about. 

To have a move up system based on score is just not right. No two locations are going to lend themselves to have identical courses. To use the 390 number some more, at no time during the 2008 season would a 390 have finished higher than 33rd place. In Metropolis, that 390 would have landed in 71st place out of 136 shooters. Are you seriously gonna tell a shooter that got beat by HALF the field that he's in the wrong class?? For all we know that was the best weekend of his archery career.

The system WORKS. If you win, your out. If you finish in the top 3 twice, usually your out. If you consistently finish in the top 10, your out. There is no need to subject the Novice class to any harsher standards that the rest of the classes. NONE.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

I just told ya Spoon. 47 sandbaggers in Novice, that sounds about right give or take a few.:darkbeer: Those 30 to 47 top Novice guys kicked to Hunter B. the Top 15 Hunter B's to Hunter A along with all the other Hunters who would like to shoot All unmarked + the Unlimited guys. 240 shooters in the 3 classes would then be more even in terms of numbers of shooters and more appropriate skill /challenge levels overall. The only people its going to tick off 3 dozen 2-3 yr career Novices whos egos are done good by dominating the true beginners.:darkbeer:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Kill Shill said:


> The only people its going to tick off 3 dozen 2-3 yr career Novices whos egos are done good by dominating the true beginners.:darkbeer:


With the current system in place, How is this possible?? If there were career Novice shooters dominating the class they would have won out a long time ago. It's just NOT happening.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

your right, without any change it is not possible.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

I think that the rules are good the way they are and i hardly think a person in bow novice that comes in 30th is sandbagging....

I here so much talk about sandbaggers in bow novice, you talking about a class that if you win you will get a few hundred bucks.. I hardly think that folks can make a living on that, but if they do win the 300+ they are out...

For the ones crying about folks being in bow novice for years, prove it please..

Show me the proof and also show me how much money they have won in bow novice, i would love to see the facts...

I really don't see how moving a person who came in 47th place up in class would be fair... I think most are right, you would have less people coming out to participate and that isn't what you want..


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Kill Shill- I have been shooting 3D a long time. When I started it out(IBO rules at the clubs I shot at) I was shooting 50 yards, with fingers and fixed pins. The set up I had was my hunting bow....a Trophy Hunter by High Country, it shot a smoking 217 with 2117 arrows and I had 4 brass pins on my sight. Judging yardage was a *%^* especially at that speed but I survived and came to love the game. I am not a huge fan of marked 3D but I do see it's merits. IF it brings more shooters out to play then so be it. If ASA or anyone can get more shooters out then they make more money and we will have shoots to go to. I agree that there should be classes where you judge all 40. Part of the charm of 3D is judging the targets.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

Bowbuster said:


> I think that the rules are good the way they are and i hardly think a person in bow novice that comes in 30th is sandbagging....
> 
> I here so much talk about sandbaggers in bow novice, you talking about a class that if you win you will get a few hundred bucks.. I hardly think that folks can make a living on that, but if they do win the 300+ they are out...
> 
> ...



your right , you couldnt move someone up in 47th place unless the sandbagging and overly liberal ASA rule governing the matter was really out of hand/out of touch with reality. If you look at the IBO hunter/pin related classes/rules are more logical and the ASA could do better with my idea.Be more balanced in terms of skill/competition


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Kill Shill said:


> your right , you couldnt move someone up in 47th place unless the sandbagging and overly liberal ASA rule governing the matter was really out of hand/out of touch with reality. If you look at the IBO hunter/pin related classes/rules are more logical and the ASA could do better with my idea.Be more balanced in terms of skill/competition


Do you really feel that there is that much bagging going on in Novice??
Have you seen it first hand or are you going by the scores and i don't mean that in a derogatory way, just a question...

I just feel that there would be nothing to gain by bagging in novice and everyone who bags has to have a motivation to do it, 99.9% of the time that motivation is $Money$. I just don't see there being big money in it for a jerk to plan on bagging, but that's just MHO.........


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

yeah, when there are 3 dozen + guys in Novice capable of 380 + game in Hunter Class.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> Do you really feel that there is that much bagging going on in Novice??
> Have you seen it first hand or are you going by the scores and i don't mean that in a derogatory way, just a question...
> 
> I just feel that there would be nothing to gain by bagging in novice and everyone who bags has to have a motivation to do it, 99.9% of the time that motivation is $Money$. I just don't see there being big money in it for a jerk to plan on bagging, but that's just MHO.........


I think there's two diff. issues here. Sandbagging would be shooting a lower score on purpose, or shooting a score just good enough so that you DO NOT win enough money that gets you bumped up a class. That's what I would call sandbagging. 
The other issue that is being talked about here is the guys shooting good enough that they could be in the 40 yd. class but they choose to stay in Novice. If a guy can shoot even or 10 up on a 30 yd. max course, he certainly can shoot good in the 40 yd max class. Let's be for real, ALL of the shots aren't 40 yds. So you got true Novice guys that, like has been stated, will never shoot close to even or up that aren't placing as high because their class is being dominated buy guys that should be in the 40 yd. class. Hope that makes sense to some, I can see why SOME might be discouraged...


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Bowbuster said:


> Do you really feel that there is that much bagging going on in Novice??
> *Have you seen it first hand or are you going by the scores *and i don't mean that in a derogatory way, just a question...
> 
> I just feel that there would be nothing to gain by bagging in novice and everyone who bags has to have a motivation to do it, 99.9% of the time that motivation is $Money$. I just don't see there being big money in it for a jerk to plan on bagging, but that's just MHO.........





Kill Shill said:


> yeah, when there are 3 dozen + guys in Novice capable of 380 + game in Hunter Class.


I have to assume that you are basing this on scores posted for Novice class, with scores alone you cant seriously believe that you can determine that there is sandbagging taking place.. 

Here are the scores for hunter class this year, lets analyze it...


*1 LARRY ODOM 30822 412 13 0 
2 JIMMY MC BETH 29488 408 14 0 
3 BRUCE BARKER 3528 406 8 0 
4 PHILIP MODESITT 70565 403 11 0 
5 LARRY PAINTER 10185 402 9 0 
6 PHILLIP MENDOZA 16411 402 8 0 
7 JEFF HENNESSEE 10448 402 7 0 
7 BRADLEY TAYLOR 24809 402 7 0 
9 JONATHAN GREENE 13505 401 9 0 
10 JONATHAN WATKINS 30065 401 8 0 
11 RANDALL LANIER 30085 400 9 0 
12 BLAKE MELHUISH 23508 400 8 0 
13 BRIAN SCOTT 14839 400 7 0 
14 DAVID JENKINS 30695 400 6 0 
15 MARTY FRAZIER 29970 398 7 0 
15 TRAVIS BELCHER 13993 398 7 0 
17 BRIAN WRIGHT 17600 396 9 0 
17 LENNY SPENCER 13285 396 9 0 
19 JONATHAN HANCOCK 70513 396 6 0 
20 SCOTT CREQUE 12273 394 8 0 
21 NICK TINSLEY 13972 393 7 0 
21 MIKE DEVINE 14451 393 7 0 
23 KEVIN BRYANT 28188 390 6 0 
24 NATHAN BARKER 30644 388 7 0 
24 JAMES AYERS 70539 388 7 0 
26 DANNY RAY 5994 388 5 0 
27 SCOTT WRIGHT 10501 388 3 0 
28 SHANE WINDSOR 12392 386 7 0 
29 SCOTT MASON 16343 385 7 0 
30 BRANDON OGDEN 17659 385 6 0 
31 CLINT POFFENBERGER 18358 385 5 0 
32 MARC SMITH 34300 384 9 0 
33 JON MORRIS 13544 384 7 0 
34 BUTCH TALLEY 29160 383 8 0 
35 JEREMY HARDEE 1354 383 5 0 
36 MIKE BOULINEAU 17633 379 9 0 
37 ROBBIE FEDERER 29706 379 6 0 
38 LARRY DANIELS 26504 378 9 0 
39 AL MILLS 30108 378 6 0 
40 MITCH FOLSOM 14875 376 3 0 
41 FRANK OGDEN 17643 375 5 0 
42 HAROLD WATSON 19690 375 3 0 
43 JASON POLK 13996 374 5 0 
44 JAMES AVERY CAMPBELL 30984 373 6 0 
45 BRAD JOHNSON 30713 373 3 0 
46 PHILIP HUFF 4726 373 2 0 
47 JOSH MCDOWELL 14023 372 3 0 
48 AARON ASHLEY 12524 370 7 0 
49 DON DE LONG 15070 369 8 0 
50 MICHAEL CALHOUN 16355 369 6 0 
51 BRIAN REYNOLDS 14667 368 3 0 
52 MARTY PUGH 10089 368 2 0 
53 TRACEY MOORE 26892 367 7 0 
54 DANIEL HADLEY 14557 367 6 0 
55 ROBERT FITCH 10847 367 1 0 
56 BOOKER KILBURN 23332 366 6 0 
57 BRAD GRISSOM 13217 366 1 0 
58 SCOTT ALLEN 14028 365 6 0 
59 CHARLES LAUGHLIN 15065 365 4 0 
60 STEWART BURRESS 16413 364 7 0 
61 WES LEWIS 12657 361 1 0 
62 JODY MILLER 13228 360 5 0 
63 MARK PLANTE 34213 360 3 0 
64 PAUL LANDRY 12502 358 3 0 
65 PHIL LEACH 10963 357 2 0 
66 SCOTT ALEXANDER 15291 356 4 0 
66 JERRY WAITS 34250 356 4 0 
68 CARL CHAPMAN 30640 355 4 0 
69 DAVID ALLIGOOD 13222 354 0 0 
70 KEITH GOOCH 20745 352 5 0 
70 SCOTT HAMLIN 34303 352 5 0 
72 ARTIE BEARMAS 17637 352 4 0 
73 MICHAEL FRESENBURG 16195 352 3 0 
74 MICHAEL HUNT 11080 351 5 0 
74 MICHAEL TODD 17891 351 5 0 
76 DEAN KILBURN 23333 351 4 0 
77 JESSE CAMPBELL 34289 350 3 0 
78 TRENT JACKSON 12462 349 4 0 
79 DUKE CUEVAS 11917 349 3 0 
80 THEODORE MICK 34264 346 4 0 
81 FRED SEYFRIED 16511 345 6 0 
82 TREY MILLER 13393 345 3 0 
83 JEFF STEELE 17970 344 1 0 
84 RANDALL POLK 14110 343 2 0 
85 JOE HEIST 70420 342 3 0 
86 RODNEY GREATHOUSE 14006 339 4 0 
87 NATE MOORE 17914 338 3 0 
88 ALEX PEMBERTON 34271 337 8 0 
89 RAFAEL MENDOZA 17978 337 1 0 
90 JONATHAN PAGE 14315 336 4 0 
91 GEORGE MCCALL 14963 329 6 0 
92 DANNY MORGAN 13497 325 5 0 
93 BRIAN BAILEY 34308 323 2 0 
94 JOHN HIGHFILL 19689 322 3 0 
95 ANDREW WATKINS 18000 318 2 0 
96 JIMMY ALEXANDER 70486 317 3 0 
97 SAMMY GARVIN 34277 305 5 0 
98 KARL LARSSON 31088 301 1 0 
99 PETE MURPHY 70402 279 1 0 
99 DENNY MOORE 17642 279 1 0 
101 STACY CONRAD 34253 256 2 0 
102 HOWARD SOLKI 14699 252 1 0 
103 DOUG PUCKETT 70245 191 4 0 
104 JOEL HODGES 15952 153 0 0 
105 GREGG MOORMAN 10930 148 1 0 * 

A 380 score would have got you 36th place, so why would an archer who shoots a 380 in novice be better off in hunter? He didn't win any money in Novice, but because he is getting closer to that, you say move him up. I ain't buying it!!
How bout the guys that shot 380 or lower in hunter, should they move to Novice?

The fact is that there will be winners and losers in every class, someone has to win and others have to lose.. I think the way they have it structured with money won, making you go up in class is a smart way to do it.. 
That very rule keeps folks from sandbagging and why I feel it is place....

From what I have seen in this thread i will give you my thoughts on what is wrong with novice class...

It's the opinions right here that is wrong with the class. making it so taboo to shoot in it in fear of being ridiculed if you win is the very thing that keeps folks out of the sport.. Which IMHO is not the the message we as ambassadors of the sport of archery should be sending, and yes, we are all ambassadors of the sport in one way or another....

Lets look at the winner from last years Novice class, JONATHAN HANCOCK.
He shot a 412 last year with 13 12's to win. This year he shot a 396 in Hunter class and came in 19th.. What does that prove, the fact that hunter class is a harder course then Novice.. So moving folks out of Novice with a 380, who IMHO won no money and putting them in hunter class where the course is harder, makes no sense to me at all... 
I'm done in this thread, it seems to me that folks will want to make up rules that will benefit there own personal wants!!!!!

For those that are thinking about trying out the big tournaments and yes i am one who is thinking about it.. Enter what class you feel comfortable in, keep tabs of you own scores and compare them to the different classes that best relate to the type of shoots you attend.. Base your decision on whats right for you and good luck to you, i will be the first to congratulate you if you win.........:thumb:


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

N2RCHRY said:


> I think there's two diff. issues here. Sandbagging would be shooting a lower score on purpose, or shooting a score just good enough so that you DO NOT win enough money that gets you bumped up a class. That's what I would call sandbagging.
> The other issue that is being talked about here is the guys shooting good enough that they could be in the 40 yd. class but they choose to stay in Novice. If a guy can shoot even or 10 up on a 30 yd. max course, he certainly can shoot good in the 40 yd max class. Let's be for real, ALL of the shots aren't 40 yds. So you got true Novice guys that, like has been stated, will never shoot close to even or up that aren't placing as high because their class is being dominated buy guys that should be in the 40 yd. class. Hope that makes sense to some, I can see why SOME might be discouraged...



That makes good sense and I understand what you are saying, i agree that there are some in novice who would be able to compete in hunter... But if they haven't shot well enough to win any money in novice, do you feel it is fair to move them up in class just based on score?

The fact is that some might not take the sport real serious and really don't put in the time to become better. They come to the shoot to have fun with their buddies and that's about it, isn't that really what are sport is all about, having fun... I guess I lied in my other post about being done with this thread...


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Bowbuster said:


> The fact is that some might not take the sport real serious and really don't put in the time to become better. They come to the shoot to have fun with their buddies and that's about it, isn't that really what are sport is all about, having fun... I guess I lied in my other post about being done with this thread...


Yes, I agree it's about having fun and no, I don't think they should have to move up based on their score. It's just kinda crazy a guy shoots even in Novice and places 11th. But 11th outta 105 shooters IS pretty good.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

N2RCHRY said:


> Yes, I agree it's about having fun and no, I don't think they should have to move up based on their score. It's just kinda crazy a guy shoots even in Novice and places 11th. But 11th outta 105 shooters IS pretty good.


Yeah, I see what you mean.......

Now does equipment come into play on this? Can you use long stabs and scopes in Novice? I know you cant in hunter, but what about Novice?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bowbuster said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean.......
> 
> Now does equipment come into play on this? Can you use long stabs and scopes in Novice? I know you cant in hunter, but what about Novice?


No you can't use that stuff in Novice. It is the same equipment rules as Hunter class minus magnification.


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## MrPibb (Apr 10, 2004)

Here is the deal as I see it, ASA is designed to move shooters to the correct skill level of class, If they choose to shoot bow novice and win they will be moved up. If they win in bow novice, this means that they are competitive and will most likely continue to be in the next class as well. All the while the rest of the shooters in bow novice will either be happy where they are or will work their way up. Once again, this is how it is designed. Sure there will be some that will shoot the class just because they know they can win, its part of it. But what does it matter, their gonna have to face some bigger challenges along the way if they continue up the ladder in ASA. On the other side of the coin, some of the boys in hunter class can flat shoot, be careful what ya wish for, ya might just get smoked by one of them in the open class. Just my two cents.:darkbeer:


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

yeah, the Hunter guys who shot 400 should go to Hunter A if the class existed and they werent already be there. I came in at a lowly 32nd. If Hunter A was a class, I would already be there.


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## MrPibb (Apr 10, 2004)

Last year one of my buds shot unlimted, and I will tell you that those boys don't play, they can flat shoot, I don't think ya'll want them boys in hunter A. (if there was such a class). They can watch you shoot a target and know exactly what ya shot it for. By the way my bud moved to open A and shot 4 down at G'ville.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, I guess I did ask.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

N2RCHRY said:


> bhtr3d, this is a discussion board with people giving OPINIONS. Nothing more. I'm not "worried" about ANY class. I DO plan on shooting some more ASA in the future and because I haven't shot a Pro/AM in a few yrs I COULD sign up in open B or C.(I think, may be wrong) Would that be right?
> What class do you shot, not sure if we've met is the only reason I ask?
> Sorry If it came off as "complaining"...



It's all good, no worries from me. To address your question. You could shoot B, not C though. This is due to your shooting accomplishments, as you have stated in your signiture. Also, as a director, I have the right to place you in a class, due to that part as well.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

mag41vance said:


> Well, I guess I did ask.



This is probably more response than you were expecting.


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

Im just expressing an opinion from my observations.Just like momma bird has to push some of her offspring out of the nest by early summer, I think the ASA should & could provide a rule or something to get the Novice guys out.
The way things are now you can have a 400(or real close) shooter staying in Novice indefinetly.


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## heilman181 (Mar 24, 2006)

Davik said:


> Notm to stir the pot, but at paris last year i talked to an Open C shooter who has been an Open C shooter for a number of years...his claim was that he monitors his winnings so as to never win out of OPEN C I followed his career last summer, and he was right on the bubble at the end of the season and went to the Classic in open C. Don't think for a second that this doesn't happen, and there are a LOT of these guys floating in Open C and Bow Novice that shoot there for several years.


Does he sit down to pee? :wink: If he is capabale for doing that, why not move up to Open B and see where the cards fall?


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

*An interesting note*

At least it is to me.

In Virginia I shot in the VBA 3D fall Classic in 08 and won the State Championship in the AMFSBH class, and when I competed in the VBA State Closed (members only) Tournament the following month, they placed me in the Mens AA class in AMFSBH and that was my first ever tournament shooting the Field Archery disciplines. I didn't think that was fair, not having Field archery experience. I placed 6th in the AA class that 2 day shoot, but would have finished 1st in the single A division in that class. I think in some ways trying to make all things fair by moving people into other classes is somewhat like socialism. Classes should be established based on merit (just like in life), and ones desire to either move up, or settle in your comfort zone. If that means being excluded from the trophies in the lower class because you're kicking the competitions rear all the time. That shouldn't be a big deal anyway. There can't be much satisfaction in that element. If that is your desire, you can always pay the lower shoot fee and shoot for fun, and compare your scores to the top guns. You can shoot from whatever stakes you wish at that point.
Then satisfaction is celebrated internally. 
How's that for a long-winded Baptist!:zip:


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## LONGSHOT ARTIST (Aug 28, 2007)

i think making people move up is a good idea, no reason for a good experienced archer sand bagging in one class and whooping up on a bunch of amatuers!...we want to grow the sport not discourage the newcomers!
why wouldn't people want to move up, better competition, you gain more knowledge and better yourself as an archer!


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## Cold Pt. Archer (Feb 5, 2009)

Kill Shill, you said that you would consider moving to Unlimited class if it had 3 times the shooters. You can't expect it to have three times the shooters unless people get over the fact it doesn't have a lot in it now and start signing up. Come shoot Unlimited with us and I can promise you won't be dissapointed. They are a great group of guys and I'm sure you won't be without competition. Hope to see some of you with us in Mississippi !!


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## apex7 (Mar 23, 2006)

*Open B Shooter*

I shoot an even or within 1 point if even the last few shots I HAVE BEEN TOO. i SHOOT THE BEST i CAN AND SCREW THE REST.tOO ME IT IS AN ACOMPLISHMENT TO MAKE THE 400 MARK.:wink::wink:tAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES AND THE OTHERS WILL TAKE THEIR PLACES.i SHOOT OPEN B. wON MONEDY I N OUR STATE TOURNAMENT AND HAD TO MOVE UP. SUCK IT UP AND STEP WITH THE MEN


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## ihunt-4-me (Jan 20, 2008)

*Wow!*

I've read these three pages and I don't know quite what to think? I have shot 3D on a local scene for a couple of years and I shoot even or better usually. I like to meet people, talk, learn and have a good time. I was asked to be staff shooter for a few companies this year, but it wasn't for my shooting. I called, wrote and sent resumes. I would like to think it is my reputation and people skills that got my staff positions. I have had nothing give to me from the companies other than hats and patches. Guess what, I'm proud to wear them because I believe in their product and given the chance I think you would too. 
Now because I'm a staff shooter and do kick butt on the local level, what class do I have permission to shoot. I have never been to a state or higher level competition. I really can't afford to go out of state, but I was thinking of going to Metropolis (ASA) and Bedford (IBO). I'm located about the same distance from both. I know I shoot well, but in a large competition stress will play it's hand. At the local level I've always shot with people I know, joke and have a good time with. It sounds like if a new guy shows up and kicks it, he's a sandbagger? This doesn't sound like fun.

HeyJustin if you ever need a shootin partner, just holler. I'll wear my staff hat and patch and be happy to shoot with you! So I'll read on and maybe someone will tell me what class I should shoot in.

Thanks.......Doug


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

ihunt-4-me said:


> I've read these three pages and I don't know quite what to think? I have shot 3D on a local scene for a couple of years and I shoot even or better usually. I like to meet people, talk, learn and have a good time. I was asked to be staff shooter for a few companies this year, but it wasn't for my shooting. I called, wrote and sent resumes. I would like to think it is my reputation and people skills that got my staff positions. I have had nothing give to me from the companies other than hats and patches. Guess what, I'm proud to wear them because I believe in their product and given the chance I think you would too.
> Now because I'm a staff shooter and do kick butt on the local level, what class do I have permission to shoot. I have never been to a state or higher level competition. I really can't afford to go out of state, but I was thinking of going to Metropolis (ASA) and Bedford (IBO). I'm located about the same distance from both. I know I shoot well, but in a large competition stress will play it's hand. At the local level I've always shot with people I know, joke and have a good time with. It sounds like if a new guy shows up and kicks it, he's a sandbagger? This doesn't sound like fun.
> 
> HeyJustin if you ever need a shootin partner, just holler. I'll wear my staff hat and patch and be happy to shoot with you! So I'll read on and maybe someone will tell me what class I should shoot in.
> ...


Here's what I tell EVERYONE. Look at the classes. I don't know what equipment you use so I can't guide to wards a class. Become familiar with the equipment limitations and yardages of each class, then enter the class you feel you would be most comfortable in or is most closely related to the class you shoot at home. No one HAS to start at the bottom but don't be intimidated by some people and move up because someone might ridicule you for it.

National events and your local shoots ARE NOT the same. There is some pressure put on you at the National events that you won't have at home. Shooting with people you don't know can have it's effect on people. 

No matter what class you shoot just remember one thing, Have as much FUN as you can stand. I have been to 5 ASA Pro/Ams over the last 2 years and am really bummed out because I will only attend one this year. I really enjoy the events. Seeing friends from all over the southeast and shooting with some great competitors and people mean a lot to me. 

If you go you WILL have fun. Just don't let somebody on AT ruin it for you.


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## whitetail101 (Aug 10, 2007)

mag41vance said:


> In the ASA and IBO they state if you win a certain amount in your class you are required to move up.
> My question is: I shoot in HC and prefer that class because of my set-up, but it would seem if I were required to move up a class, I would be at a disadvantage shooting against shooters with open class set-ups. Or am I interpreting this wrong?
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> vance


Its not the type of equipment, its how you use it. Just because another shooter has a different setup than you may not mean he can still shoot as well as you can.

If you win in a class, its time to move to the next level, period.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

I Hunt- I assume you are using an Open set up?????????? If you go to Bedford you will be shooting in MBO. Let your placement at Bedford tell you where you belong in ASA. If you are in the top 20% at Bedford shoot Open A in Metropolis, if you are in the bottom 50% shoot Open C if you are in between then shoot Open B. If you are a pin shooter shoot in AHC and make the choice between Hunter class and Unlimited at Metropolis. Your local record would disqualify you for Bow novice in my opinion. Just a reminder that ASA has a 280+ speed limit.


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

One thing I would like to see ASA change is go to a running total instead of 300.00 won in a years time. An Bow Novice or Open C shooter can shoot just 1 or 2 a year and still place high and not shoot their way out of the class. You just have to about win one to shoot out or shoot almost all of them and place in most. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

That makes sense Charlie, Make it 300.oo total, regardless of the time it took to do it. The people who place in the money for two years, prolly should be moving up.

I can't lie fellas, I thought about dropping points so I could stay in the class and make some more money, but it is just wrong to to do that (sandbagging). Geezer^^^ shot in my group and can testify that I tired as hard as humanly possible to win.



Overall the ASA rules that are current work very well, we have really gotten down to splitting hairs.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

At the ProAm level it doesn't take a good shooter long to win out. The problem with them staying around is too fold. One if they are close to winning out they quit coming or as JWCatto suggested tank a few points. Second money won on the Federation side of things does not count toward your win out. ASA counts on the State Federation director to move shooters along at the Federation level.


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## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

jwcatto said:


> That makes sense Charlie, Make it 300.oo total, regardless of the time it took to do it. The people who place in the money for two years, prolly should be moving up.
> 
> *I can't lie fellas, I thought about dropping points so I could stay in the class and make some more money,* but it is just wrong to to do that (sandbagging). Geezer^^^ shot in my group and can testify that I tired as hard as humanly possible to win.
> 
> ...


For all the ones in this thread that I told i just couldn't see someone sandbagging in Novice, I apologize, I was wrong to think it couldn't happen..

If this years winner admits to thinking about it, then there is surely those that are doing it...
It's pretty sad to think that folks would want to do that, it does nothing good for the sport or for the individual doing it. In fact, I think it would be holding the archer back from being the best that he can be..

I guess I am old school, the way I was raised i believe that "Money comes and money goes, but your reputation follows you your whole life"...:wink:

This is not a jab at this years winner, he said that he thought about doing it but didn't. I don't know him and have never met him so i have to take him at his word, but i do commend him for being honest...


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

There is a little more to that story, I'll try to explain. After the first round Justin's buddy , Wes , was leading shooting at high 12s. We had shot low 12s on our round. The next round we had to shoot high 12s and Wes had the lowers. Justin said there is no way that he could beat Wes having to shoot high 12s. He had never shot high 12s or 14s before. Anyway, we talked about just shooting safe and finishing high as possible and just shoot BN at another shoot. After over an hour wait to get on the range, Justin was pretty nervous and you could tell his shooting wasn't as good as the 1st round. I think he shot a couple of 8s on the first 8 targets. We had already heard that Wes was way up on his first 10 targets. I kept telling Justin to relax and just shoot safe. After a while he settled down and got back to shooting. At no time did I think he was sandbaging. He was trying as hard as he could, maybe a little too hard and forcing some of his shots. We found out after the round that Wes had an equip. failure and Justin had ended up winning. CONGRATS to JUSTIN and WES. New friends that I met through archery.
Charlie


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## jwcatto (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks Charlie for the explanation,

Bowbuster: I don't doubt for a second that there may be sandbaggers in the class. However, it is NO WHERE NEAR the level that some would like you to believe. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, charlie, John, and Wes, BUT we shot as hard as we could on every target. Only when it seemed that I would be beaten did I pause to rationalize that it would not be so bad to stay in the class and shoot again. I hope we can meet up at one of the shoots.

Honesty is the best policy,
Catto


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