# holding weight vs mass/stabilizer weight



## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

I've been shooting a PSE Perform X with a 30"/15" stab setup. I had kind of settled on 8oz up front and 220z on the back and was shooting great but the bow just felt too heavy and my front shoulder would wear out pretty fast, but if I cut the weight down, my float opened up a lot. I was shooting 80% let off. For variety, I put the low let off mods on at 75%, thinking maybe the extra tension would help me stabilize the weight. Turns out it was the exact opposite. I couldn't hold that bow still to save my life. The LL mods do however seem to force me into shooting with better form. If I don't lock my shoulders back and down and keep tension I can't even get my release to fire and/or the bow takes off on me. 

This all has me thinking with the high let off mods I was just getting lazy and not keeping enough tension in my back and that weight was transferring to my front shoulder. I pulled most of the weight off now shooting 3-4oz on front and 9-12oz on back and things feel alot smoother. I am going to keep shooting low let off for now because I think its at least a training tool to keep check my form. Just curious what others experience has been with high vs low letoff.


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## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

I've had very similar experience with the high let off. so easy to get lazy and not realize. Also after shooting like that for it was difficult to adjust to the higher holding weight but I committed and it helped a lot. In the beginning there be a lot of times I'd get caught creeping because I was just repeating poor technique with the high let off. after some time it worked out and I eventually found the threshold where I could hold the most weight and still have a little left to load slightly into the wall. 

In more recent times I did pick up The Sweet Spot pressure Pro which has helped tremendously to fine-tune even more and not lose pressure especially during the last few seconds of the shot. Besides the benefits of float higher holding weight is really helpful for a forgiving release. Even with a hinge or a trigger I found the differences can be significant when camping out on the back end sloppily and only holding like 12 or 13lbs or less.

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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

Don't you dare temp me with another archery gadget.... Haha. I have using a resistance release for the feedback. Very eye opening to see how bad my form really is given how often I can't get the release to go off smoothly. But I'm encouraged by your comment that sticking with the higher let off led to improvement in your game.


enderson said:


> I've had very similar experience with the high let off. so easy to get lazy and not realize. Also after shooting like that for it was difficult to adjust to the higher holding weight but I committed and it helped a lot. In the beginning there be a lot of times I'd get caught creeping because I was just repeating poor technique with the high let off. after some time it worked out and I eventually found the threshold where I could hold the most weight and still have a little left to load slightly into the wall.
> 
> In more recent times I did pick up The Sweet Spot pressure Pro which has helped tremendously to fine-tune even more and not lose pressure especially during the last few seconds of the shot. Besides the benefits of float higher holding weight is really helpful for a forgiving release. Even with a hinge or a trigger I found the differences can be significant when camping out on the back end sloppily and only holding like 12 or 13lbs or less.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

You hit it spot on.

I use low letoff -- for two reasons. One because letting down is easier with low letoff. It starts loading up as soon as you start letting down as opposed to suddenly jerking as the cam rolls back over.

Second, the low letoff helps me make sure I don't get lazy and lose tension out of my back.

I support the bow mass weight from my draw side elbow (with the load in my draw side back). I do not try to hold up the bow and stabilizers with my bow side shoulder. 

Holding the bow suspended from the draw side elbow allows the bow to settle into position. The heavier stab weights help keep the bow from moving as easily if my execution is not quite as smooth as it should.


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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

Your anecdote about suspending the weight from your draw side elbow was a complete game changer for me. I am not even sure what I changed but just visualizing the weight distribution that way seemed to make it happen for me. My float went from all over the Target to pretty much locked on the bull at 35 yards. Still have work to do on the shot execution but major improvement, thanks for that.


Shogun1 said:


> You hit it spot on.
> 
> I use low letoff -- for two reasons. One because letting down is easier with low letoff. It starts loading up as soon as you start letting down as opposed to suddenly jerking as the cam rolls back over.
> 
> ...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I truly believe draw length plays into this. Shoulder tore to pieces and after surgery I went to a 50 pound bow with 85% let off and played with draw length so I was on the wall regardless. I shot as good as I ever have. Present bows are at 55 pounds. Played with draw length with 85% let off and shooting pretty good considering my back problem. Back problems, yeah. Hauled off the 3D course twice this year and made it halfway through two others. Some courses kind rough enough I didn't even try.


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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> I truly believe draw length plays into this. Shoulder tore to pieces and after surgery I went to a 50 pound bow with 85% let off and played with draw length so I was on the wall regardless. I shot as good as I ever have. Present bows are at 55 pounds. Played with draw length with 85% let off and shooting pretty good considering my back problem. Back problems, yeah. Hauled off the 3D course twice this year and made it halfway through two others. Some courses kind rough enough I didn't even try.


Agreed. I have been going back and forth between 2 mod settings on the cam between 30" and 30.5" in draw. I also use a little sugrue on the grip to lower the grip angle which makes the draw feel a little shorter. I think I fall somewhere in between those draw lengths. I will try taking the sugrue off and see how that feels at the shorter draw length. Trial and error with a lot of variables.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

0.5" is really a huge change in DL. I'd be twisting cables to get it spot on.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

As a general rule of thumb, at least for me: if taking mass weight off the bow makes your float go to pot or otherwise results in wiggles, etc., taking that weight off was the right thing to do. And you should even keep going until all of it is unscrewed and reassess what you got from a barebow. 

Meaning, you should be able to hold still on the target and shoot well without the pin/ring meandering around or wiggling or wobbling with nothing on the bow but the sight. If not, the weight and stabs were just hiding an underlying problem like incorrect draw length, alignment, grip or even simply not so good physical conditioning even though everything else is fine. And it was all probably just making the overall problem worse.

In my experience, this is true of letoff as well. Meaning, things shouldn't deteriorate with a lower holding weight either - you should still be able to hold still and execute your shot well.

The only caveat with super high letoff that I've found is it's a little to moderately less forgiving. If it's really really light (in the single digit lbs), little things like too much pressure with the nose on the string (not kidding here) can change your tune and move the POI around. On my supra max, for example, this will make my bareshaft go a little knock-low and subtly make me group a little high. Its holding weight is very low at the poundages I shoot..... 

But the reason to prefer a higher holding weight or more mass weight, etc., should never be, again just speaking for myself, to try to mask something like a side-to-side wiggle or a really wandering-around float when shooting barebow. 

At least, for me that's the case. I should be able to hold and execute my shot with nothing on the bow, or else I always have problems no matter what I screw onto it.....

lee.


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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

lees said:


> As a general rule of thumb, at least for me: if taking mass weight off the bow makes your float go to pot or otherwise results in wiggles, etc., taking that weight off was the right thing to do. And you should even keep going until all of it is unscrewed and reassess what you got from a barebow.
> 
> Meaning, you should be able to hold still on the target and shoot well without the pin/ring meandering around or wiggling or wobbling with nothing on the bow but the sight. If not, the weight and stabs were just hiding an underlying problem like incorrect draw length, alignment, grip or even simply not so good physical conditioning even though everything else is fine. And it was all probably just making the overall problem worse.
> 
> ...


I think you make a great point. The more I've learned about stabs and weight and such the more I realize they are not necessarily to help you aim steady, but to keep the bow steady in the event of any torque applied on execution, which is more of a form issue. When I went to the low letoff mods, it really exposed a form flaw in that I was super lazy with my shoulders and back tension (I've always had posture issues not keeping my shoulders back). The heavy stab weight seem to just exacerbate this. I ended up taking at least half the weight off the stabs I was previously shooting and may pare it down more and shoot it that way for a while until, as to your point, I can keep it steady without the crutch of all the weight, then add it back on gradually if it helps.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

dbd1313 said:


> I think you make a great point. The more I've learned about stabs and weight and such the more I realize they are not necessarily to help you aim steady, but to keep the bow steady in the event of any torque applied on execution, which is more of a form issue. When I went to the low letoff mods, it really exposed a form flaw in that I was super lazy with my shoulders and back tension (I've always had posture issues not keeping my shoulders back). The heavy stab weight seem to just exacerbate this. I ended up taking at least half the weight off the stabs I was previously shooting and may pare it down more and shoot it that way for a while until, as to your point, I can keep it steady without the crutch of all the weight, then add it back on gradually if it helps.


Yep, I have a fair number of similar stories I can tell from my own shooting where I had to go in the opposite direction from what the "experts" advised. And that includes stabilization.

My general strategy is to start at the beginning, not the end. And stay at the beginning for as long as you need to before moving further. For example, up in the general section you'll find thread topics like "my bow is 55lbs and I can only pull it back 4 times before my shoulders are killing me. How do I work my endurance up to it?". Well.... , my strategy if I had a 55lb bow (that I also can't pull back more than 4 times) is to get rid of it and get a lighter bow. Not continue to struggle with the 55 pounder until I can draw it back, say, 10 times and tear everything up in my shoulders in the process. 

But I do have to custom order my bows factory new with 40lb limbs to do that because you can't find 40lb bows used anywhere. Reason being, most folks start at the end goal - 60lb limbs - and not at the beginning, so the used market is 98% 60lb bows . 

Yeah I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea. It's the same thing with stabs. At my local shop I see guys all the time with full-on freestyle rigs which weigh a minimum of 7lbs in mass weight, but you can see the shooter leaning back "like Reo", the end of the stab slowly wobbling back and forth and the shooter making the occasional wild 8 or even 7 about every 2 or 3 ends. They're still also early enough in their shooting, or I dunno maybe not, that they're still punching the trigger, but it's easy to see the bow is too heavy also. The bows also have the limb pockets fully screwed in too, I've noticed, and the bow has 60lb limbs on it. I don't know how those guys make it through a tournament at all, or even finish near the top (which most don't). 

I could post the video of (Uncle) Ted Nugent "discussing" the issue of excessive draw weight, but I'll set that aside as maybe overkill for now . 

But anyway, as I said that's the general idea - do the simplest and most important things first: make sure the draw weight is light enough for you to be able to draw it enough to actually work on your shot and the mass weight is light enough to be able to hold the bow up. Don't start twisting cables and trying to tune or even monkeying with drawlength and other more advanced stuff on a 60lb-limb bow that already weighs 8 lbs and you can barely even pick the thing up. Then shoot that rig as-is for a while until you adjust it properly for you and you can shoot it well. Only after that, start bolting stuff onto it to see if it helps.....

lee.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

grantmac said:


> 0.5" is really a huge change in DL. I'd be twisting cables to get it spot on.


Yes, 1/2" is a huge change. In some cases twisting the bow string can work. In other cases both the cables and string need played with. I guess it depends on the ata of the bow as there are two ratios I know of. One is 4 to 1 and the other 3 to 1. Okay, untwist the cables (each) 1 full twist and twist up the bow string 3 or 4 full twists to shorten. And vice versa to lengthen. Doing this will keep draw weight and let off the same or near the same.

I've had two custom bow strings made to correct draw length. To send a bow off and have it done is pricey. I had Roger Snodgrass of M&R Custom Bow Strings make both. Another string maker of high caliber is Jerry Carter of Threadz (yes, Z). I believe Jerry still shoots Pro division.

I'm not really OCD and can live with 1/8" off (short)....sometimes. Long sucks. That I have several hand held releases I can make adjustments pretty quick now. Little of d-loop changes and little of draw stop adjustments can get me dang close or dead on. Some of my hand held releases vary greatly, like .400" from short to long of hookup. 

Just had new mods installed on my MX3. I used 28.0" mods, ground, to get me 28 1/2" - let off went to 90% which I thought a bit too much. I later used 28.0" mods with strings played with to get 28 1/2". Now using 28 1/2" mods and still needed a bit of string twisting to get what I wanted - maxed out 55 pounds limbs now check 53 pounds.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

So Lee, is your philosophy that stabilizers are to fight movement after the shot, as opposed to aiming aides? Personally, I've never thought about it that way, but might take them off my bow to see how it aims, just to know, and take it from there.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

IBOHunt3D said:


> philosophy of stabilizers.


 It's a stabilizer.

For the past few years we've seen folks adding an increased amount of weight as some sort of magical potion to make one shoot better. Seriously, put a pound of weight on the front and three pounds on the v bars and you literally can't move the pin right, left, or high of the X ring. One shot may be all you get though before you start crunching up the bow shoulder, dropping the release elbow down to leverage the bow side up and you start shooting low.

A good stabilizer philosophy is to have them setup to augment your hold. This means getting your fitment and form down pat first, then paying attention to your sight picture to determine what stabilizer changes need to be made to assist you in keeping it in the middle. 

Some old philosophies: 
-for up and down pin movement take weight off the front or bring it closer to the riser,
-for side to side pin movement add weight to the front or move the weight further from the riser. 

It's a little more complicated with back- and v-bars and determining if you're going for a balanced or biased stabilizer setup, but the principles are the same. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2kMSxXtyxk&t=9s


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

IBOHunt3D said:


> So Lee, is your philosophy that stabilizers are to fight movement after the shot, as opposed to aiming aides? Personally, I've never thought about it that way, but might take them off my bow to see how it aims, just to know, and take it from there.


I don’t really have a particular philosophy about them, I just add whatever helps me shoot better. When I start shooting worse, I stop and go back. 

Right now at the level I’m at I shoot my best with a 10” beiter recurve side bar + a 3oz weight on the front of the bow. Anything longer or heavier my bad shots start getting worse.

So at this point I’m more familiar with removing stabs than putting them on.

But shooters at a higher level than me will be better guides I think...

Lee


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> It's a stabilizer.
> 
> For the past few years we've seen folks adding an increased amount of weight as some sort of magical potion to make one shoot better. Seriously, put a pound of weight on the front and three pounds on the v bars and you literally can't move the pin right, left, or high of the X ring. One shot may be all you get though before you start crunching up the bow shoulder, dropping the release elbow down to leverage the bow side up and you start shooting low.
> 
> ...


I believe a lot of truth Bob put forth. 

Somewhere in here I gave of Chance B's setup - 10 oz on a 30" front and 30 oz on a 14" back bar (I asked him personally on Facebook). This would break me for sure. Anything over 14 oz on my 12" back bar has the bow trying to twist out of my hand.

If looking at stabs of the "higher level" like Lee noted, looked to the smaller light weight ones. I've noted this before, Jeff Hopkins, Levi Morgan and Tim Gillingham would be good picks for a football team.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

PS: one syndrome I have with a high-inertia setup is it being too much of a fight to get the pin back on in the event that it does drift off. When I use my longrod, the result of that is wilder bad shots than with a low-inertia setup. The good shots, where I do hold sufficiently still, are really good, but the bad ones are much worse.

To me, that's a training issue - more movement than there should be - which is aided by going low inertia with just my bowhunter class stab on the bow. But that's an instance of where more stabilization in terms of MOI actually hurts more than it helps, due to an, er, ongoing improvement period for the shooter, I'll put it that way . 

Lately I've been trying my longrod from time to time to see if that's getting better and it is.

I have a similar issue shooting a scope, where excessive movement on occasion gives me the "yips" - the sudden movement of the target off to the side can make me try to yank through the shot instead of concentrating on the target and doing my normal steady pull. That's the same training issue involved, IMO.

Compound is the art of holding still and aids like additional stabilization and magnifying scopes depend on mastering the holding still part first to a certain level before they'll really help you. At least that's what I'm finding as I work to improve my shot, but I think that's true in the general case also.

lee.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

dbd1313 said:


> I've been shooting a PSE Perform X with a 30"/15" stab setup. I had kind of settled on 8oz up front and 220z on the back and was shooting great but the bow just felt too heavy and my front shoulder would wear out pretty fast, but if I cut the weight down, my float opened up a lot.


I had a similar problem with my bow shoulder, running similar weight to that. how low is your back bar(s)?

Found same as you when I lightened up back bar weights groups got worse, but when I simply raised my back bar small increments at a time I found the shoulder pain was gone and still maintained groups as before. I even increased the side bar weight, which improved things again.

ended up with 33" front 7.5oz, 12" back 20.5oz (indoor setup). I may try small increase as season goes on.

thinking about it more, if I run too much weight low down its always given some shoulder pain/fatigue

Amusingly doing the math this works out to Grivs formula hahahah, maybe a coincidence I dunno but its just where my indoor set up shoots best.


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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

*SWITCH said:


> I had a similar problem with my bow shoulder, running similar weight to that. how low is your back bar(s)?
> 
> Found same as you when I lightened up back bar weights groups got worse, but when I simply raised my back bar small increments at a time I found the shoulder pain was gone and still maintained groups as before. I even increased the side bar weight, which improved things again.
> 
> ...


You are saying running the back weight higher up on the bow, vs angling the bar down where the weight is lower on the bow, was easier on your front shoulder? I have a 14" back bar and I run it way down, basically next to my bottom cam. I found the bow settled more like this, but I may have to try raising it up and see what happens based on what you are saying.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

yeh exactly. Wow that is very low. The low COG could well be the cause. A lower COG is great for settling down quick and aiding a rock steady hold like you said, but you gotta look after that shoulder.

Are you running back bow from low riser bushing? if so you could also try running it from the grip level bushing if possible, which is what I do.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

There is a difference in leverage with using the high or low mounting hole for the back bar. I use a 10 degree down quick disconnect for the front and have the back bar as close to 10 degrees down as I can get it. This on two different bows. 

I doubt a shoulder issue with however the back bar is set. Extremely heavy bows weighted properly will balance nicely, but too heavy wears on one.

Old picture of my 2012 Pearson. I shot this bow with only a front stabilizer and 3 ounces on the front straight 30" Cartel.
1st pic is that using the same Cartel and Bernie's dampening balls fully weighted.

2nd pic is the same Cartel and a back 10" Bee Stinger with 10 ounces. Worst finish of that year was a 4th at a ASA Qualifier - finished 3rd in the Illinois ASA 3D Championship. Got told I was nuts when my sidekicks saw my totally bruised bow shoulder - fell a couple days before the event.

3rd pic, bow shot great, but then I had a accident that side lined me.
It is now set up with a 10 degree down quick disconnect, 30" Bee Stinger Competitor with 7 ounces and a single back 12" Bee Stinger with 14 ounces.

Sucks when your back hurts, but finished off yesterday staying in the 5 of the 5 spot target back to 40 yards - scared the X ring a couple off times  And some wonder why I hang on to the 2012 Pearson. My new Pearson is waiting on arrows.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

dbd1313 - today decided to increase weights. Long rod, went up to 10 oz. Hold locked in better with less/slower float and no shoulder issues, unlike with a low back bar.

I could certainly feel a bit more "pull" if you like on my bow shoulder but so far no problems. 

I then added and ounce to the back bar to keep front/back ratio roughly the same but this proved too heavy, so just stayed with the 10:21 front and back

I think with a little trial and error you can hopefully find that optimal balance between hold/groups and fatigue.

turned draw weight down to 52lbs for indoors but with about a 55-60% let off.


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## mgwelder (May 4, 2014)

I dont think I understand "supporting the bow from the release elbow". Can you explain how this is done, or is tgerecan article to explain this more?

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## GeorgiaArcher01 (Oct 7, 2018)

I use 4oz in the front and 8-10oz in the back. Works out pretty well.


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## dbd1313 (Oct 28, 2015)

I swapped mounts and ran my back bar off the forward grip bushing, but I'm still running very low weight and just concentrating on my form with the higher let off. I started getting comfortable with the 75% letoff and dropped it to 70% and my shot fell apart again. Took more weight off the stabs down to 3oz/9oz. Been shooting it that way for about a week and today was finally getting some steady holds and good shots. Really had to concentrate on keeping shoulders locked back and shoulders down and now really focusing on rear elbow position. I'll probably go down to 65% and see what happens.


*SWITCH said:


> dbd1313 - today decided to increase weights. Long rod, went up to 10 oz. Hold locked in better with less/slower float and no shoulder issues, unlike with a low back bar.
> 
> I could certainly feel a bit more "pull" if you like on my bow shoulder but so far no problems.
> 
> ...


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## the.pabst (Nov 6, 2014)

I shoot my performX 3D with 65% let off @60#.
My stab setup is 18oz @ 30" front and 24oz @ 14" back.
No issues at bow arm or sholder. Shoot this setup for 3D and also for Indoor.
Works good for me...


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