# solve a small debate....



## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

a buddy of mine was telling me about how someone protested another shooter at a field shoot for shooting with an arrow whose nock color didn't match it's mates. we both agreed this was a chickens*** move, and i couldn't ever remember seeing that nfaa rule, but my friend thought it was true. i've looked through the bylaws and can't find anything.

is there such a nfaa rule? i'm pretty sure it exists in fita.


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

I believe it says all arrows must match, at least fletching style and color.


I'm sure the ruling is there so someone doesn't come in with every arrow looking different and cause cofusion on where whos arrow is. Can't believe anyone would protest one nock, it's easy to bust one and not have a matching color. Be hard to look at yourself in the mirror the next day.


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

From the NFAA website - 

"F. Freestyle Bowhunter:
All arrows shall be identical in size, length, weight and fletching with allowances for wear and tear."

Pretty lame way to have to win:violin:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

It is a rule....but only in the barebow/bowhunter classes I believe. Maybe in BHFS....but FS is shoot whatever. 

It may seem like a BS rule but it makes PERFECT sense....it prevents guys from shooting different arrows at different distance....and other sneaky arrow tricks that have been used in the past. 

This is the first year I have shot all the same color nocks I know that....and I started the year with 4 or 5 color combos in my quiver. But I shoot FS.....


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## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> It may seem like a BS rule but it makes PERFECT sense....it prevents guys from shooting different arrows at different distance....and other sneaky arrow tricks that have been used in the past.


I'm curious how this trick worked.....don't understand what benefit of shooting different colors from different distances.....

i'm also still looking for the actual verbiage in the bylaws.....


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

avid3d said:


> I'm curious how this trick worked.....don't understand what benefit of shooting different colors from different distances.....
> 
> i'm also still looking for the actual verbiage in the bylaws.....


Thunderbolt already posted it...

It is a rule for most classes, but not for freestyle...

The rule is there for the non-freestyle classes to prevent tricks like different weight arrows for different distances. in this case it wouldn't likely give an advantage, but since it is in the rules, it ends up just as someones BS way of winning over a better shooter...It is technically is against the rules.

I'd be interested to hear from someone who really knows if the protest was upheld or dismissed. I know at our state shoot I would want to send the protester packing...


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

avid3d said:


> I'm curious how this trick worked.....don't understand what benefit of shooting different colors from different distances.....
> 
> i'm also still looking for the actual verbiage in the bylaws.....


Colors not so much unless your just trying to cause confusion....but a completely different arrow, same color or not, is what I think they are trying to stop. Perhaps shoot some Pro-Tours at distance and some 2712's for everything under 40yds?

SB


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## toyrunner (Jun 26, 2006)

I know some guy's in barebow used to put different weight tips in arrows shooting the heavier arrows at the closer distances. Most of them tried to make the arrows slightly different so they could tell which was which... thus the NFAA rules about arrows being the same color, etc.


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Thee is no reference for color , therefore the colors can be different. Number one rule in the book is if it don't say you can't then you can!!!! ken


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

Hmmm. I would say that "identical" kinda implies the same color. If you were wearing a red polo shirt and I was wearing a green polo shirt, I don't think you'd say we were wearing identical shirts!!?!

But - all that being said, it'll be interesting to see what the ruling was. And I assume it'll go before the RIC for a final ruling.


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

*All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching with allowances for wear and tear.*

The above was taken from the rules for Competitive Bowhunter, a non-sighted style but also applies to all the Bowhunter styles and Traditional as well. I think that's it.

As stated above it's so you can't have special arrows for special targets. In the non-sighted class you could have arrows that gave you a point on of say 35 yards and some others that gave you a point on of 50 yards and so on.

In Bowhunter Freestyle your 60 yard pin might become a 70 yard pin with different arrows.

Someone that wanted to cheat could put orange nocks on the arrows with 100 grain points and green nocks on arrows with 80 grain points...or something like that anyway.

It wouldn't be a cheap win if you thought the other competitor was cheating and using the nock color to keep the arrows straight.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Seems like I remember this having been discussed at the national meeting in a previous year over an agenda item. The consensus was that the rule said nothing about color and therefore did not apply to color of fletching or nocks.

Size of fletching must be identical and type of nocks probably have to be identical but not color.

There may have been a RIC on this before also. My previous years rulebooks with the RIC rulings for those years are at home and I am on vacation heading to Durango, CO, so I cannot check it out for a while.

I would rule as stated above.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> It is a rule....but only in the barebow/bowhunter classes I believe. Maybe in BHFS....but FS is shoot whatever.
> 
> It may seem like a BS rule but it makes PERFECT sense....it prevents guys from shooting different arrows at different distance....and other sneaky arrow tricks that have been used in the past.
> 
> This is the first year I have shot all the same color nocks I know that....and I started the year with 4 or 5 color combos in my quiver. But I shoot FS.....


It is a "rule" across the board, regardless of the division. That rule has been on the books since before I started competitive field shooting in 1968. HOWEVER_...."the allowances for wear and tear" had, in the past, included the NOCK, since those can be broken and replaced while on the course._ The rest of the arrow parts, however cannot easily be changed/fixed while out on the course, so those need to be identical "with allowances for wear and tear".

POINT WEIGHT is always a concern in the BH and BHFS divisions cuz of the fixed pin part.....I've seen people DQ'd on this issue because they were using several different points weights and had 4 or 5 arrows of each of the "group" of point weights, using those at different distances.....What a way to CHEAT...but it has been done!

field14


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> All arrows shall be identical in size, length, weight and fletching with allowances for wear and tear.


Doesn't specifically say the nocks must also be identical. Therefore, per NFAA rules, you can use different color nocks. I believe this has been discussed in the past, not sure if a separate RIC ruling was necessary or not. If someone were to protest I'd gladly take their protest fee and ask them to show me in the rules where it specifically states that nocks must be the same color.....and then I'd head out to the nearest ice cream shop with their money because I know they won't find it in the NFAA rules anywhere .

And to reiterate, the "identical" arrow rules do not apply to the Freestyle Divisions. Hence in FS/FSL you can use whatever color combinations you wish, can even use different arrows from target to target if you choose.

Just to add, for official FITA/NAA tournaments all arrows shot during an end must have the same fletch color and pattern (i.e. cannot shoot an arrow with 2 yellow and 1 orange and an arrow with 1 yellow and 2 orange in the same end) and identical nocks. However, doesn't mean you can't change up patterns or nock colors from end to end, just as long as all arrows shot in the target match. You can even change arrow size end to end if you want, as long as all arrows in the target are matching/identical.

>>------->


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

field14 said:


> It is a "rule" across the board, regardless of the division. That rule has been on the books since before I started competitive field shooting in 1968. HOWEVER_...."the allowances for wear and tear" had, in the past, included the NOCK, since those can be broken and replaced while on the course._ The rest of the arrow parts, however cannot easily be changed/fixed while out on the course, so those need to be identical "with allowances for wear and tear".
> 
> POINT WEIGHT is always a concern in the BH and BHFS divisions cuz of the fixed pin part.....I've seen people DQ'd on this issue because they were using several different points weights and had 4 or 5 arrows of each of the "group" of point weights, using those at different distances.....What a way to CHEAT...but it has been done!
> 
> field14


No it's not....you may want to go back and read again there F14. That rule doesn't apply to FS :wink:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

I remember years ago when certian "GOOD" shooters would carry different arrow sizes in their quiver. ie: 2117 and 2114 They shot the pin distances with the 2117 but shot the 2114 at the long yardages. Unless you read the marking on the shaft you would never know the difference. Or they shot shorter arrows. In every case they used a way to separate the shafts without bringing notice to themselves or their equipment. This was way back in the time when you could not use a level, vert. line or pin guard. They also would shoot the 70 and 80 by looking over the peep and then use one of their pins to aim. So technically it doesn't affect the way you shoot. That is why they had the rules in place, because someone was circumventing the rule to begin with. And yes years ago you had to hav ethe same color combos even for nocks. Least we forget in the day when you crushed a nock you also caused some damage to the shaft end. this meant that you needed to repair the nock end and then glue the nock back in place. For the most part at the bigger events no one wanted to repair in the field because you couldn't guarantee the validity of the repaired shaft. Also remember this was the time that the competitive BH needed 4 inch minimun vanes or feathers, 125gr screw in points.:zip:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> I remember years ago when certian "GOOD" shooters would carry different arrow sizes in their quiver. ie: 2117 and 2114 They shot the pin distances with the 2117 but shot the 2114 at the long yardages. Unless you read the marking on the shaft you would never know the difference. Or they shot shorter arrows. In every case they used a way to separate the shafts without bringing notice to themselves or their equipment. This was way back in the time when you could not use a level, vert. line or pin guard. They also would shoot the 70 and 80 by looking over the peep and then use one of their pins to aim. So technically it doesn't affect the way you shoot. That is why they had the rules in place, because someone was circumventing the rule to begin with. And yes years ago you had to hav ethe same color combos even for nocks. Least we forget in the day when you crushed a nock you also caused some damage to the shaft end. this meant that you needed to repair the nock end and then glue the nock back in place. For the most part at the bigger events no one wanted to repair in the field because you couldn't guarantee the validity of the repaired shaft. Also remember this was the time that the competitive BH needed 4 inch minimun vanes or feathers, 125gr screw in points.:zip:


Only a few short years ago, a BHFS 'shooter' (notice I did not say "archer". since "archers" don't CHEAT)...was using "identical arrows" but had 5 sets of 4 arrows in his quiver. Not that uncommon, since a lot of shooters "group" their arrows as to how well that set of 4 holds the line at different distances. I've done that for years....I will NOT shoot my "prime time" arrows that group tightly from 60 out on a 15 yarder, for example.

But, back to the case in point (pun intended). This "shooter" didn't seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary.. All his arrows were the same length, even the same shaft size, same identical vanes, nocks, etc. HOWEVER, two of the people he was with at this state tournament knew this guy had been notorious for anything from falling behind the group and moving his peep site or poundage "on the sly" if he knew what the next target was, to slipping his "pin gang site" up or down to "cover" what he knew was the next target (moving his site pins during scoring). So, these two guys paid the protest fee and demanded that ALL of this guy's arrows be weighed on the grain scale.

So, this BHFS shooter turns in his card and the chairman asks him for his arrows to weigh. This guy says, "sure, here ya go," and hands the chairman the arrow from the top tube of the quiver. The Chairman says, "NO, you don't understand, I want ALL the arrows out of your quiver for weighing." At this point, it was obvious the shooter knew he was done for and caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
ALL the arrows were weighed, and each set of 4 weighed DIFFERENTLY (and we are not talking 4 or 5 grains different...oh, no...we are talking 20 to 60 grains different depending upon the "set of 4 arrows" being weighed and depending upon which slot of the quiver they came from! The 5th slot? It had ONE "spare" arrow of each of the 4 other weights in his quiver!

TOTALLY ILLEGAL, and obviously INSTANT DISQUALIFICATION for that shooter. We never saw him again at a state event...he took up 3-D. NO loss for the ARCHERS in the State Organization, for sure. BUSTED forever.

Trust me, you give "some SHOOTERS" an opportunity to bend the rules or go beyond a limit...they are going to find a way to do it!

Oh, you wouldn't believe the other means of skirting the rules or downright cheating I've seen in BHFS over the years. And by first looks, everything appears copesthetic, too! Funny thing is that sooner or later they all get caught or run up against someone that is better at "skirting the rules" than they are...ROFLMAO, but gives BHFS a totally undeserved black eye because of the inappropriate CHEATING of a few bone-heads.

field14


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> Only a few short years ago, a BHFS 'shooter' (notice I did not say "archer". since "archers" don't CHEAT)...was using "identical arrows" but had 5 sets of 4 arrows in his quiver. Not that uncommon, since a lot of shooters "group" their arrows as to how well that set of 4 holds the line at different distances. I've done that for years....I will NOT shoot my "prime time" arrows that group tightly from 60 out on a 15 yarder, for example.
> 
> But, back to the case in point (pun intended). This "shooter" didn't seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary.. All his arrows were the same length, even the same shaft size, same identical vanes, nocks, etc. HOWEVER, two of the people he was with at this state tournament knew this guy had been notorious for anything from falling behind the group and moving his peep site or poundage "on the sly" if he knew what the next target was, to slipping his "pin gang site" up or down to "cover" what he knew was the next target (moving his site pins during scoring). So, these two guys paid the protest fee and demanded that ALL of this guy's arrows be weighed on the grain scale.
> 
> ...


exactly This however can cast a dim light on those that truely deserve recognition.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> exactly This however can cast a dim light on those that truely deserve recognition.


Yes, and it is so sad to have this happening over and over and over again as people's scruples and civility seems to be on the decline. Narcissim prevails, ME first, and to heck with anyone else or their feelings...you know the syndrome.

The BHFS is one of the most competitive divisions out there! When done right and by following the rules, I've had as much or perhaps even more fun and more a challenge in that division as I've ever had.

Nowadaze, however, If I get a pin size I can SEE...then it covers the spot, and if I use a pin size that doesn't cover the spot..I can't find the PIN... I guess I could try a VERIFIER in my peep housing, since those are now legal in BHFS.

Still think it would be better if BHFS was still straight pin stock, no bubble, peep fully tied in, and no lenses of any kind either in the peep or in the housing; along with a 125 grain MINIMUM point weight limit and the 80 pounds max weight. But obviously that isn't going to happen.

field14 (tom D.)


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## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

field14 said:


> Yes, and it is so sad to have this happening over and over and over again as people's scruples and civility seems to be on the decline. Narcissim prevails, ME first, and to heck with anyone else or their feelings...you know the syndrome.
> 
> The BHFS is one of the most competitive divisions out there! When done right and by following the rules, I've had as much or perhaps even more fun and more a challenge in that division as I've ever had.
> 
> ...


tom, that is really old school......you sure you want everyone knowing how old you are............

btw..off topic...did you enjoy the tour this year...i sure did.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

avid3d said:


> tom, that is really old school......you sure you want everyone knowing how old you are............
> 
> btw..off topic...did you enjoy the tour this year...i sure did.


NOT old school at all....people today are STILL bending/breaking the rules and trying things that they don't think they'll get caught at.

A survey/study of high school kids was taken and studied once again a short time back, and way more kids TODAY would "cheat on an exam" if they thought they wouldn't get caught at it than kids given the same survey only 10 years ago....Quite alarming, IMHO. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the INCREASE in the % of students that WOULD CHEAT was up by over 10% points in just 10 years! We are not talking from 30% to 40% either....more like something from 75% to 85% WOULD CHEAT if they thought they wouldn't get caught at it.

SO...NOT OLD SCHOOL....and just look at recent goings on with respect to civility, honesty, scruples....it is REAL and it is NOW.

Which "tour" are you talking about? If you are talking Tour de France...then absolutely. If the Leadville, CO race is any indicator, Senor "Contador" and his big yap may have provided plenty of incentive for Lance to go out and kick Contador's butt.....Contador won with Lance not being 100%.....and belittling and bad-mouthing Lance, like Contador did....may be Contador's undoing.....HOPEFULLY.

The Leadville race was unreal....Lance LAPPED those guys and rode 10 miles on a flat back tire!! I saw part of that course in August just prior to that race....and it was NOT an easy "single track" mountain bike course! Of course we are "roadies" so never rode the single track trails in Leadville, CO.


field14 (tom d.)


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> Yes, and it is so sad to have this happening over and over and over again as people's scruples and civility seems to be on the decline. Narcissim prevails, ME first, and to heck with anyone else or their feelings...you know the syndrome.
> 
> The BHFS is one of the most competitive divisions out there! When done right and by following the rules, I've had as much or perhaps even more fun and more a challenge in that division as I've ever had.
> 
> ...


I feel your pain. And personally I thought that having those limitations is what distanced the BHFS from FS class. Nowadays the distinction between the 2 is getting ever so small.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

It sounds like there is still a general opinion that the fletch has to be the same colors on each arrow. Nothing could be further from accurate.

Unless and until someone proves to me that the rule says same color, I will rule otherwise. The rule book says that the written word is law. And the written word does not say identical color. The rule does not even say that the shafts have to be the same color. Jeff, you are correct about the nocks, however different nocks, with adapters or pins or not,of significantly different weight might trigger the arrows to be different weights.


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