# Famous "thumb behind the neck" archers... who is teaching this anymore?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just saw the video of double Olympic medalist Richard Priestman posted by GB archer Patrick Huston, and it made me think...

Where are all our "thumb behind the neck" archers going? 

Famous, and remarkably successful ones that I've shot with include Tsyrempilov (Russia), Ruban ( '08 individual gold medalist and '04 team bronze medalist) from Ukraine, and maybe the most famous of course - Frangilli (too many championships to mention) of Italy. These three men were/are legends in the sport, and yet where has this technique gone?

Is anyone here in the U.S. teaching it? 

I have one student that I switched to this style of shooting in order to fix a chronic collapse, and it worked like a charm. He loves using it and his shooting has really improved because of it. I think it's still a valid technique that we as coaches need to keep in our toolbox.


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## Hoover388 (Oct 28, 2016)

Good Ole cam Hanes shoots like that, and so do many of his followers. Not sure theres a legitimate disadvantage to this technique.

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Patrick Houston uses it. Some of GB team, and i think Ukraine still utilize the method.



Chris


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

been doing it for 45 years barebow bowhunter


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Doing it (sometimes) but not teaching it. Can't remember who I learned it from but it was back in the early 80's.- Pete


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

It's not about "teaching it", it's more about physically doing it. 
It's arguably one of the most solid anchors possible, that the majority of people anatomically can't comfortably do. 
I only have two shooters who can pull it off, without seriously over drawing. 

Viper1 out.


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## Boatman71 (Jul 16, 2013)

Did it for years until moving on to a hand held release. What's the big deal with it? Felt natural to me.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Hoover388 said:


> Good Ole cam Hanes shoots like that, and so do many of his followers. Not sure theres a legitimate disadvantage to this technique.


I recall, many years ago, seeing a very serious warning about this from Vittorio- If I recall correctly, the possibility of a stroke was mentioned, due to excess pressure on the internal carotid artery.

Perhaps he will weigh in here.

Personally I have never seen a problem with this anchor, as long as the shooter "fits" it.


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## Mombo59 (May 3, 2013)

I've wondered at times where it has gone.
From my earlier post some might know I like doing things a bit different, and it is a different style for sure.
It can be a very solid.

Back in the 70's, as a competitive stringwalker, I had a chance to shoot next to, on the practice line, David Hughes.
He was my idle back then, being the king of the barebow.
He showed just how solid this style can be.

Tony


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I Think "Gillo" adopted that style when he watched-as a young boy-Stanislav Zabrodsky break Darrell's record I think Vittorio said they created Gillo's style from watching SZ and USA shooter Alan Rasor


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It's fairly easy to slip a bit too high with the pressure and find yourself from the floor. The point (artery that GT mentioned) behind the ear is something most martial artists are taught about (usually to avoid) when doing head locks / throws.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal said:


> It's fairly easy to slip a bit too high with the pressure and find yourself from the floor. The point (artery that GT mentioned) behind the ear is something most martial artists are taught about (usually to avoid) when doing head locks / throws.


I suppose in that case, the problem takes care of itself in short order then. 

Now that gt mentions it, I do recall Vittorio's caution. Hopefully he will weigh in, or maybe I will go re-read my copy of "The Heretic Archer."


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I suppose in that case, the problem takes care of itself in short order then.
> 
> Now that gt mentions it, I do recall Vittorio's caution. Hopefully he will weigh in, or maybe I will go re-read my copy of "The Heretic Archer."


Mr Spock was a famous Vulcan archer before serving on the Enterprise and that is where he learned his unique technique of rendering earthlings unconscious with a mere squeeze!


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

When I was shooting a wheel bow with a release I held thumb behind the neck. That one thing got me from being an A shooter to AAA. No one taught me, it felt more secure, steady, consistent and rock solid. Today after reading this question I took out the recurve and tried it once again this time with a recurve. What I found was a better hold, eliminated head tilt and my groups tightened. 
I don't hold my thumb behind my neck with my compound but I do use it to spot my anchor with more consistency.
The key to a consistent thumb placement begins with a consistent draw cycle. Its very easy to get it right or totally screw it up. I do creep when fatigue sets in. My thumb behind the neck help correct that issue and makes creeping much easier to detect. Teaching what is self taught is over my pay grade but I promise its worth considering. I'm still working on my form making my observations more personal than instructive. Try it, your mileage may vary.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

@ Nick728 - I second everything you said. 20+ years ago when I was shooting wheeled bows with a release that was how I anchored and it worked very well for me. I have no idea why I gave it up when I switched to recurve.... Probably because I watched what other people were doing and copied them. I'll try it with the recurve next time I'm at the range - C


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Eric Hall quite successfully used the thumb-behind-neck anchor when he shot FSL. He didn't use it for long when he made the switch to recurve.


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

I have a friend who uses this anchor but is struggling to make it work with a clicker. She pulls her thumb around and behind the tendon and then settles slightly forward into the anchor position. Then she has to work much harder than she should to pull through the clicker, which is currently set back enough so that she doesn't pull through while drawing. Any thoughts?


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## Fist429 (May 20, 2013)

It is not the straight thumb behind the neck like Stanislov or Jamie Loesch but this is what I have done for years . Pinky and thumb used to touch, that is what Allen Rasor did as well as some others from our USAT in the late 80's and early 90's. I do teach this method but it does have to be the right person


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Really thought the carotid artery was on the side of your neck. cant imagine how this could happen unless someone was helping you anchor 


>--gt--> said:


> I recall, many years ago, seeing a very serious warning about this from Vittorio- If I recall correctly, the possibility of a stroke was mentioned, due to excess pressure on the internal carotid artery.
> 
> Perhaps he will weigh in here.
> 
> Personally I have never seen a problem with this anchor, as long as the shooter "fits" it.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

They may be confusing the vertebral arteries in the spine? I can tell you from experience you don't want to mess with them, you might wake up on a medivac C-17 headed to Landstuhl from down range....


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Really thought the carotid artery was on the side of your neck. cant imagine how this could happen unless someone was helping you anchor


I guess the hand could be causing pressure on the side and not the thumb. ?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

People - 

The carotid artery isn't the issue, the issue is the carotid sinus. It's a sensor that's located on the carotid arteries in the middle/upper third of the neck (both sides) and directs pressure in the carotid artery. Direct pressure on it (internal or external) can cause a drop in blood pressure and fainting. Once that happens and the pressure is relieved, blood pressure should come back and the patient revives. Most behind the neck anchors I've seen are pretty far away from it. If there was a danger of hitting it, I would strongly advise the shooter to find a different anchor, even though the danger is slight since you have two carotid arteries and therefore two carotid sinuses as well as others in the body that act as a fail safe. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting all the concern. Somehow a few Olympic gold medalists managed to overcome the issue.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Back when many of us held behind the neck I can't recall anyone having a problem. As for myself I can't recall being anywhere near the area mentioned.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

The Carotid artery and sinus are in front of the sternocleidmastoid muscle, so it would seem the standard anchor and slide along the neck would trigger in incident more than putting your thumb behind the sternocleidmastoid. 

However, a quick look at the anatomy shows the sinus nerve on the back side of the carotid, facing rearward. Putting your thumb behind the sternocleidmastoid could push that muscle into the sinus nerve, triggering an incident. 

I feel much safer shooting tomorrow. I was a little concerned there for a minute.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

sprinke said:


> I have a friend who uses this anchor but is struggling to make it work with a clicker. She pulls her thumb around and behind the tendon and then settles slightly forward into the anchor position. Then she has to work much harder than she should to pull through the clicker, which is currently set back enough so that she doesn't pull through while drawing. Any thoughts?


Have her check out this video of Viktor Ruben. He briefly addresses over pulling so he can achieve a consistent draw with the clicker.

https://youtu.be/ksWnTrN6lG8




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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Nobody has stated why this anchor has not been widely adopted. Put your hand in that position and look at the extra tension it creates in your hook. Is it possible to create a relaxed hook with a thumb behind the neck? I suppose so, but if you have short hands, or a bull neck, it is extremely difficult. Even in archers with the right physical attributes, it is much harder to produce a relaxed string hand with an extended thumb.

You'll note that many who have been in the sport for a long time have messed around with it.......


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I agree with Midway and Viper. Few are anatomically suited for it (small head + long fingers) and, if not, it creates tension in the string hand that is detrimental.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Not many do the full thumb across the neck. Those who do a curled thumb behind sternocleidomastoid are much, much more common.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

zal said:


> Not many do the full thumb across the neck. Those who do a curled thumb behind sternocleidomastoid are much, much more common.


 that seems to be the more vulnerable position given our anatomy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I agree that not everyone is suited for this anchor. Short thumbs or small hands in general will preclude it. However most folks should be able to at least attempt it.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> I agree that not everyone is suited for this anchor. Short thumbs or small hands in general will preclude it. However most folks should be able to at least attempt it.


Now that I've tried it after not anchoring this way in decades I can't understand why I stopped using it. True enough, I can't do it like the video posted here but I'm self-taught and I've still found it to make a dramatic improvement overall.
I've been working on a release problem for a couple of month, if yesterday wasn't a one trick pony, this simple change is the solution I've been seeking.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Seattlepop said:


> that seems to be the more vulnerable position given our anatomy.


I've been told that it only comes a problem if the thumb starts out horizontal rather than first knuckle pointing at least 45 degrees down. Some older Finnish archers still do it, and at least one guy I've talked to about it said that they copied that from Soviet (/Ukrainian) archers back in the 80s. Apparently the way with full thumb behind neck is to have very little pressure on the side of the neck.

Hopefully Vittorio tunes in, also I think that Italy had some Ukrainian coaches back in the day which might have influenced it appearing around those parts. At least Giancarlo Ferrari (2 time olympic bronze medalist) shot that way in the 80s.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

zal said:


> I've been told that it only comes a problem if the thumb starts out horizontal rather than first knuckle pointing at least 45 degrees down. Some older Finnish archers still do it, and at least one guy I've talked to about it said that they copied that from Soviet (/Ukrainian) archers back in the 80s. Apparently the way with full thumb behind neck is to have very little pressure on the side of the neck.
> 
> Hopefully Vittorio tunes in, also I think that Italy had some Ukrainian coaches back in the day which might have influenced it appearing around those parts. At least Giancarlo Ferrari (2 time olympic bronze medalist) shot that way in the 80s.


Agree. I think its the style with the thumb running down alongside the neck muscle that could potentially cause the problem mentioned if the thumb is pulled forward into the muscle. As long as the motion continues backwards, as it should, I don't see a problem.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

guess I didn't know what thumb behind the neck really meant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksWnTrN6lG8


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Back in the late 60's it worked pretty good for Gentleman Jim Pickering.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Nice pictures and stories from the past 

Since archery got more serious within sports science, biomechanics and coaching within the last 20 years and the evolution like in most sports only leaves the best material and techniques over - i would put the "thumb behind the neck" in the same corner as aluminum arrows for outdoor. Proven for Medals and records at their time, but there have to be reasons why the last big results for an archer with "thumb behind the neck" are 10 years back.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> but there have to be reasons why the last big results for an archer with "thumb behind the neck" are 10 years back.


... or from 2012 Olympics?

There's nothing dated with "thumb behind neck" and plenty of archers anchor bent thumb behind SCM, they aren't just that obvious about it.

I don't know that much about his shot process these days (you Americans might tune in), but at least during Field World Champs in Sweden even Brady had pretty obvious "thumb behind SCM" anchor. There's nothing inherently different about the two concepts (full thumb across or behind SCM), just a slightly different hand tension.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Ok, i should have added "individual" before results or did the whole team use this technique?...
Nonetheless only individual cases over the past decades got on top.

Anyway, the topic is if anyone is *teaching* this method. And i doubt this happens on competitive level.
Richard Priestman is now a well reputated coach for national teams. Is he teaching his own method? would be interesting.

Nothing aigainst their single achievements - i was/am fan of Ruban - but i actually see a common and proven direction in technique which does not include this style.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> Ok, i should have added "individual" before results or did the whole team use this technique?...
> Nonetheless only individual cases over the past decades got on top.


Of the "new" archers using the technique my personal favourite is Luca Melotto (i.e. winner of Nimes 2016). His technique is eeriely similar to an another specific Italian archer, not surprising as afaik at least some point he was Vittorio's pupil.

About the countries, it is still taught at least (that I personally know of) in Italy, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Russia. If you attend, for example Toomas Kivilo memorial comp or Jarvakandi Open in Estonia, you'll see plenty of archers who shoot like that. It can be hard to come by via Youtube, though.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Of the "new" archers using the technique my personal favourite is Luca Melotto (i.e. winner of Nimes 2016).


Interesting! Thank you.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Seems like my inconsistent release began with my improper thumb placement. By placing my thumb behind my neck recurve finger drag & creeping seems to be more controlled. I went through several tabs with and without palm plates trying to get my hook into a consistent position. When I placed my thumb behind my neck my old AAE without the palm plate shot cleaner than ever before. The Shaker with a palm plate, that I've been using, is no longer my go-to. The kook became less likely to be out of proper vertical alignment. 
Keep in mind that shooting the recurve is still mostly a self taught work in progress. I'm waiting for my "coach" to get back from his time out to help me fine turn and get out past 40 yards with purpose. I know from shooting longer distances with the compound that a 2 to 4 inch left or right miss at 20 yard makes shooting 60 yards "fun". I never believed there is a "one way only" for shooters. Personal preference was / is key in finding my zone. The difference between thumb under chin and thumb behind the neck means less side to side drifting, a tighter group and a more consistent release. 
With a compound: where once I used thumb behind the next to keep a 300 NFAA indoor average with a wheel bow I can't get there with the new bows. Finding where thumb placement is best, really depends more on which release is being used. 
N


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Captain Kirk said:


> Nice pictures and stories from the past
> 
> Since archery got more serious within sports science, biomechanics and coaching within the last 20 years and the evolution like in most sports only leaves the best material and techniques over - i would put the "thumb behind the neck" in the same corner as aluminum arrows for outdoor. Proven for Medals and records at their time, but there have to be reasons why the last big results for an archer with "thumb behind the neck" are 10 years back.


That would be the "conventional" wisdom, right? I mean, that's what all the marketing narrative has been since, oh, about 2006 or so... so it must be true. 

We're talking about shooting bows here, something humans have done for about 10K years or more. So 10 years out of 10K is exactly 0.1% - or IOW a tiny blip in the timeline. Do you really think that everything is so much different now than it was 10 years ago?

And yes, the question is who is TEACHING this anymore...


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Fist429 said:


> It is not the straight thumb behind the neck like Stanislov or Jamie Loesch but this is what I have done for years . Pinky and thumb used to touch, that is what Allen Rasor did as well as some others from our USAT in the late 80's and early 90's. I do teach this method but it does have to be the right person
> View attachment 5585273


Loesch is the one I have seen doing it locally, and getting at John's point I don't see many (any?) of his current or recent former students doing it. Wasn't what I was taught during my period there.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> We're talking about shooting bows here, something humans have done for about 10K years or more. So 10 years out of 10K is exactly 0.1% - or IOW a tiny blip in the timeline. Do you really think that everything is so much different now than it was 10 years ago?


You startet this thread in the FITA sub forum, posting pictures of olympic archers. Olympic Archery is existent in the actual form since 1972 (Munich). There are multiple forums where you can discuss traditional styles if you want. But yes your question was who is teaching this. And i doubt there are many serious coaches teaching this for olympic archers. Zal gave the best input with Melotto, the young italian archer.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

kballer1 said:


> Back in the late 60's it worked pretty good for Gentleman Jim Pickering.


...shooting 32 pounds, with a completely static release hand. Just saying.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> You startet this thread in the FITA sub forum, posting pictures of olympic archers. Olympic Archery is existent in the actual form since 1972 (Munich). There are multiple forums where you can discuss traditional styles if you want. But yes your question was who is teaching this. And i doubt there are many serious coaches teaching this for olympic archers. Zal gave the best input with Melotto, the young italian archer.


Don't write off Ruban (last World Championship gold medal in 2014, still 35) or Michele (last World Championship medal in 2015, "young" at 40) yet. Markiyan Ivashko is another favourite of mine, who's shot world class scores and results with it past 10 or so years.

It is still a very current and respected technique, but perhaps not where you are training. There's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Don't write off Ruban (last World Championship gold medal in 2014, still 35)


No i don't 


Captain Kirk said:


> Nothing aigainst their single achievements -* i was/am fan of Ruban* - but i actually see a common and proven direction in technique which does not include this style.


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## Wags02 (Jul 24, 2015)

Frangilli won the Italian indoor national shoot this past weekend defeating Fissore. Always fun watching him shoot, not the prettiest technique but very effective.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> And i doubt there are many serious coaches teaching this for olympic archers. Zal gave the best input with Melotto, the young italian archer.


I doubt there are many as well. However, the current "biomechanical" method being taught here in the US is in the minority when it comes to podiums at major events, even compared to the "thumb behind the neck" style...

If one were purely running statistics on winning, the method of shooting with one's thumb behind the neck would do surprisingly well IMO with Ruban and Frangilli's (among others) success at major events.

This is why I wonder why more coaches aren't teaching this, when the facts shot it is a proven method for winning under pressure.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Thumb behind the neck ... first one in Italy was Giancarlo Ferrari, Bronzo Olympic medallist in 1976 and 1980... many followed, Michele and Matteo Bisiani (Bronze in 1996 and Silver in 2000 with Michele). 

Is a very solid anchor, usefull to limit the collapse of the bow arm in the pushing technique. As of the litel overdraw needed, is difficult to use by the ladies, but I had Elena Maffioli ( Silver team medal in Beijing WC in 2001) using it. In these days, I have Sara Polinelli, 13, second at the Italian Indoor champs last weekend in her age category, shooting like that. What makes Michele different is the way he reaches the anchor, not the anchor by itself. 

Not for all, as it mainly depends from the face and neck shapes and possible brest interference, so I teach it when I judge it to be an advantage for the archer and he does not have to much problems in reaching it. 

By the way, I do not like the Ukrainian version with the thumb fully extended behind the neck, as in my opinion it creates too much tensions in the hand.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> If one were purely running statistics on winning, the method of shooting with one's thumb behind the neck would do surprisingly well IMO with Ruban and Frangilli's (among others) success at major events.
> 
> This is why I wonder why more coaches aren't teaching this, when the facts shot it is a proven method for winning under pressure.



Hmm. There are two main anchor techniques - thumb under jaw or behind the neck if you depend it on the thumb.
Comparing these two in statistics i doubt there will be a significant reason for coaches to bring this back to students.

People won Gold Medals with aluminum arrows, or shot with tabs without finger spacer (and some do still), but this is no reason to get this big into discussion.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> However, the current "biomechanical" method being taught here in the US is in the minority when it comes to podiums at major events, even compared to the "thumb behind the neck" style...


At least the US team has a very strong team and one really outstanding archer who is performing at best year by year now. (Winning world cups with consistency is at least on par with hitting the lucky punch at major sporting events)
So it could be worse....

we all know your heroes and it is valid to put them into light but the statistics will show one country on top when it comes to records, and achievements in international events for the last lets say 20 years, women and men. And you know the country for sure - their coaches spread the technique and refined ist to personal styles....


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Captain Kirk said:


> the statistics will show one country on top when it comes to records, and achievements in international events for the last lets say 20 years, women and men. And you know the country for sure - their coaches spread the technique and refined ist to personal styles....


While that is indisputable, you might (or might not) be surprised to learn where the "Korean style" originated. It's not something they invented from whole cloth.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

>--gt--> said:


> While that is indisputable, you might (or might not) be surprised to learn where the "Korean style" originated. It's not something they invented from whole cloth.


I know. What i wanted to show is the proof from my first posting 



Captain Kirk said:


> Since archery got more serious within sports science, biomechanics and coaching within the last 20 years and the evolution like in most sports only leaves the best material and techniques over


Some may not find it enjoyable, but if you want to bring athletes consistently at top level you have no space for extravagance.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> if you want to bring athletes consistently at top level you have no space for extravagance.


LOL

CK, you appear to have a very strong grasp on the topic. I'll just sit back, review footage from the last four Olympic men's gold medalists, and listen from here on out. 

It certainly is entertaining.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Completely off-topic, but as far as these "biomechanically perfect" archers go, my favourite is still David Barnes, especially his "textbook" follow-throughs (also if I'm not completely going deaf, it's our friend GT on announcement duty):


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

zal said:


> Completely off-topic, but as far as these "biomechanically perfect" archers go, my favourite is still David Barnes, especially his "textbook" follow-throughs (also if I'm not completely going deaf, it's our friend GT on announcement duty):


What happened to these two? Cuddihy won bronze in Athens, but that is the last I can recall of either him or Barnes. They were teenagers then. Did they just lose interest in the sport after getting near the top?


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## vhaele (Jun 26, 2016)

RMBX10 said:


> What happened to these two? Cuddihy won bronze in Athens, but that is the last I can recall of either him or Barnes. They were teenagers then. Did they just lose interest in the sport after getting near the top?


No idea - I'm sure I've seen Tim's name around somewhere but Archer's Diary has no record of him shooting a scoring round recently. Maybe that means he's out or he might be coaching or shooting field.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Completely off-topic, but as far as these "biomechanically perfect" archers go, my favourite is still David Barnes, especially his "textbook" follow-throughs (also if I'm not completely going deaf, it's our friend GT on announcement duty):


Nice footage zal. And a good example how professional coaches and/or training environment can boost a country in sport disciplines. Countless examples within all sports here. 
Nonetheless - my personal prime example for the perfekt shot execution - anchor included. (i think also your favorite?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqupMoeWDXk

And to get on topic:
Anyone with knowledge - is there any female archer using the "thumb behind the neck"?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I'm sure our ozzie friends can tune in and tell in more detail, but I got the impression that both burned out pretty quickly. Cuddihy did shoot a while after 2004, but Barnes stopped pretty suddenly. At the time he was perhaps the highest scoring western archer.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Captain Kirk said:


> And to get on topic:
> Anyone with knowledge - is there any female archer using the "thumb behind the neck"?


yes, Team Greece for one. 

in Athens in 2004 and Beijing 2008.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7cpvK5THhk

Evagelia Psarra screen shot

View attachment 5606873




Chris


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