# Leaning at Anchor



## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

**Please read before commenting**

This is a topic that I see addressed, some people immediately jump all over someone for some lean at anchor, others say if it works, do it. 

I recently watched a video on Reo's YouTube channel where he brings up a great point about leaning, and that's offhand rifle shooters (ie smallbore, Olympic shooters). I have a predominantly competitive shooting background, so that makes sense to me.

I do have some lean at anchor, and I chalk that up to years of not shooting straight up, as well as not having very strong shoulders. I find that when I have tried to shoot standing straight up, I'm inconsistent, even after trying for a year to try and straighten up my spine. When I just let my lean do its thing, I'm smacking shafts at 90m like it's my job. 

The topic of discussion that I'd like to see here, is WHY do some vehemently advocate straight spine posture, and who believes that there is merit to leaning if that's what your body naturally wants to do? 

For some reference and scale, this is about how much lean I have at anchor. 

**I should add, I'm not a new shooter. I've been shooting a bow for 17 years, this isn't a new shooter question, or a how's my form.**


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

If you are happy with your shooting, don't worry about what we think.
If not, maybe the suggestion to straighten up would be worth investigating. 

A pretty smart coach recently told me, that you can pick out anything that's considered bad form, and pretty soon somebody with that bad form will beat you.

Just because Reo leans back doesn't mean that it's right for you and it also doesn't mean that it's wrong for you.

Good form is essentially what is repeatable. Reo is really consistent by leaning back. For most, it's not that consistent. The primary reason is that it makes it much harder to keep your bow shoulder down.

But, like many of us, you are not worried about what's best for "most". You want to know what is best for you. I wish I could tell you, but you'll have to figure it out for yourself. But a good coach would probably shorten the time it will take you.

Allen


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

I think you misunderstood what I was asking here…

I know what's working best for me, I'm more interested in discussing the practical application of the theory of moving the weight of the bow more towards your center of gravity as an offhand shooter does.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

rifle shooters stand they way they do, in order to get their forearm elbow against their rib cage to form the triangle of stability that supports the front of the gun. they don't have the dynamic tension from the bow's holding weight and a good stance (form) to help stabilize the hold. 
not to be derogatory here, just factual..... but I think Reo leans the way he does, because of his size......big torso is hard on the back. add to that a fairly heavy rig at fairly low holding weight and his back muscles are strained from all the time they spend holding the bow out in front.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I know why I lean...it's how I was taught. Back in the day, that is how you anchored...put the weight on your back foot, lean back a little (helps you 'hold' the shot) and we got a little longer draw length. 

I've been working on the leaning and have much of it whipped...but still from time to time it creeps back in. And when it does, it throws the shot...to lean or not to lean- just pick one:frusty:- if you don't, you'll shoot like me.


On level ground such as you're used to shooting on (in katy, the only elevation is the ditches...lol), it's easy to deal with moving weight around and not feeling the true effect it has on your form. Once you get into the 10deg+ aiming while leaning back causes misses due to inconsistent DL/anchor.

But, like I was telling students last night...doesn't matter what works for me- if it doesn't work for you, we'll find what will.

At the end of the day, what ever works.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Fury90flier said:


> I know why I lean...it's how I was taught. Back in the day, that is how you anchored...put the weight on your back foot, lean back a little (helps you 'hold' the shot) and we got a little longer draw length.
> 
> I've been working on the leaning and have much of it whipped...but still from time to time it creeps back in. And when it does, it throws the shot...to lean or not to lean- just pick one:frusty:- if you don't, you'll shoot like me.
> 
> ...


I've contented myself with my lean, I've even made friends with it recently. Since learning to shoot a hinge, I've noticed that I actually shoot much worse by trying to stand straight up. Last week was a week where I decided to try and shoot straight up again, and it became a bad week of shooting that led to a sour all around attitude towards life. 

I think it's really interesting that you were actually taught to lean, was it from the desire to fit shooters with a longer DL like you mentioned? Or did coaches have another reason for it?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

About 15 years ago I shot with a very similar lean as you do. My scores were decent and I had a few titles but it got to me. Since then I've put an enormous amount of effort into correcting my form and now "look" much better. Truth is though my scores haven't changed very much as a result... but I look much better doing it


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

The upright form is about shoulder position and the strength of it. High = weak and subject to being broken down during shot development and also by the mass weight of the bow.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> The upright form is about shoulder position and the strength of it. High = weak and subject to being broken down during shot development and also by the mass weight of the bow.


On that note, if shoulder position is parallel to the shaft and level to the ground, is there any real problem with it? I find myself having more of an issue with shoulder position when I try and force it lower, it ends up being lopsided and not level.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> On that note, if shoulder position is parallel to the shaft and level to the ground, is there any real problem with it? I find myself having more of an issue with shoulder position when I try and force it lower, it ends up being lopsided and not level.


I'd say yours is high, not neutral. 

Even at neutral, the holding weight and mass weight of the bow is trying to pop the shoulder up. When low, the holding weight is providing lift for the bow and the shoulder maintains position without excessive input. 

Got a video camera? Take a video from behind your shoulder, focused on the gap between the top of your shoulder and the bottom of your arrow shaft. See if that gap gets smaller during the shot. It would be good to take a few of these.... Early and late in your round.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> I'd say yours is high, not neutral.
> 
> Even at neutral, the holding weight and mass weight of the bow is trying to pop the shoulder up. When low, the holding weight is providing lift for the bow and the shoulder maintains position without excessive input.
> 
> Got a video camera? Take a video from behind your shoulder, focused on the gap between the top of your shoulder and the bottom of your arrow shaft. See if that gap gets smaller during the shot. It would be good to take a few of these.... Early and late in your round.


Just so I'm clear, you're saying to lower the bow shoulder lower than parallel with the ground?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> Just so I'm clear, you're saying to lower the bow shoulder lower than parallel with the ground?


Yep.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> Yep.


I'll give that a try. I've always been told to keep shoulders parallel to the ground.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Is this a little closer to what you're talking about?


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> I'll give that a try. I've always been told to keep shoulders parallel to the ground.


I'm learning that there are a lot of things we're "told" that aren't the full truth. This could be one of them. Another would be to "push the bow toward the target" or something similar. Taken to an extreme, we know pushing the bow arm can result in some wild flyers. Yes, it's not good to collapse your shoulder and let your bow arm sink back, so someone came up with this phrase to help point out our errors.

The whole thing about stance, 70% on the balls of the feet, 30% on the heels? Really? How do we measure that? Finger tension: 50%, 40%, 10% ? Again, really??? How?

I think coaches came up with things like this as an exaggerated example to break our bad habits and get us to at least be conscious of what we're doing wrong, not that we should actually *do* them on a regular basis.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Dave V said:


> I'm learning that there are a lot of things we're "told" that aren't the full truth. This could be one of them. Another would be to "push the bow toward the target" or something similar. Taken to an extreme, we know pushing the bow arm can result in some wild flyers. Yes, it's not good to collapse your shoulder and let your bow arm sink back, so someone came up with this phrase to help point out our errors.
> 
> The whole thing about stance, 70% on the balls of the feet, 30% on the heels? Really? How do we measure that? Finger tension: 50%, 40%, 10% ? Again, really??? How?
> 
> I think coaches came up with things like this as an exaggerated example to break our bad habits and get us to at least be conscious of what we're doing wrong, not that we should actually *do* them on a regular basis.


I'm starting to think you're right on the money. Not everyone's body mechanics allow for an "ideal" form, but I'm trying to get to MY ideal form that will allow me to stay on X's all the way to the end of the session.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

good posture for your shoulders is "down and back" ...same as standing at attention, "military style". from that posture, raise your bow arm to hold the bow and draw with your other arm, keeping that "down and back" tension, in both shoulders. you will then automatically be in "back tension" at full draw and you will clearly feel it, isolated from the rest of your body and be able to maintain the tension, no matter what position your torso is in.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

coaches simply try to come up with ways to make people understand what is difficult to describe.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

ron w said:


> good posture for your shoulders is "down and back" ...same as standing at attention, "military style". from that posture, raise your bow arm to hold the bow and draw with your other arm, keeping that "down and back" tension, in both shoulders. you will then automatically be in "back tension" at full draw and you will clearly feel it, isolated from the rest of your body and be able to maintain the tension, no matter what position your torso is in.


That is the single best description I've got to date, and I now understand exactly what the idea is. Thank you!


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> I've contented myself with my lean, I've even made friends with it recently. Since learning to shoot a hinge, I've noticed that I actually shoot much worse by trying to stand straight up. Last week was a week where I decided to try and shoot straight up again, and it became a bad week of shooting that led to a sour all around attitude towards life.
> 
> I think it's really interesting that you were actually taught to lean, was it from the desire to fit shooters with a longer DL like you mentioned? Or did coaches have another reason for it?


I'm just wondering here but when you tried to stand up straight, did you also change things on the bow like DL, loop length and peep height or, did you just shoot the same setup with a different posture? Whenever I help someone with their shooting and posture, we have to make certain changes to the bow to fit the new posture. If not, things like anchor and sight geometry gets all messed up and causes more problems.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Huntinsker said:


> I'm just wondering here but when you tried to stand up straight, did you also change things on the bow like DL, loop length and peep height or, did you just shoot the same setup with a different posture? Whenever I help someone with their shooting and posture, we have to make certain changes to the bow to fit the new posture. If not, things like anchor and sight geometry gets all messed up and causes more problems.


Yes, I've been changing everything when I try and stand up straight. Try though I may, I just can't get comfortable standing straight up, I feel "off."


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> I'm starting to think you're right on the money. Not everyone's body mechanics allow for an "ideal" form, but I'm trying to get to MY ideal form that will allow me to stay on X's all the way to the end of the session.


Alright heres what I see, have seen etc. 

The leaned back form was usual or somewhat normal with the wheel bows and valley bows. It is usually pretty accurate at the longer distances because your bow hand comes up above your shoulder the longer distance you shoot. It can be somewhat called a consistency form over an accuracy form. You may not hit exactly what your aiming at but when you miss it wont be as far off center. You see this form a lot in FITA not so much indoor or on uneven footing venues. 

Where the problem is with the leaned back form is At the closer distances. When you shoot close the bow hand goes below your shoulder and with a straight arm it leverages your shoulder up. It makes release activation super tedious because any added pressure to your bow arm from your release will pull the bow down. Its is somewhat a vicious cycle. with the leaning back form you get the sight picture of to long of draw length and the feeling of to short of draw length at the same time. Most people who use this form are always searching for these 2 reasons. 

A more straight up form is in my opinion much better for close range accuracy. But you cant really have close range accuracy and long range accuracy with the classic straight arm. Here we are faced with yet another age old question, straight or bent arm!! With a hard wall bow you have to accept either leaning back if you use the old straight bow arm, or you have to accept a slight bend in a overly relaxed elbow to keep the straight arm from pushing you backward. 

My advice to someone who had of posted in a "Hows my form" thread would be to set your draw length to 1/4" less than armspan divided by 2.5 and relax your bow arm elbow so your upper body could come forward and you could stand up straight. 


Blue X


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

IMO, standing up straight does a couple things to aid in stability. The first is how easily you can hold the bow at full draw without your bow arm shoulder collapsing. If you stand up nice and straight, your bow arm and torso will create a 90 degree angle. This directs the force of the bows holding weight directly into your shoulder joint so that the entire mass of your upper body is behind it. If you lean back, the angle is now decreased and the angle of the force is pushing into your shoulder joint on an upward angle. The upward angle of the force causes you to use more muscle energy to keep it at bay and keep your body steady. This makes it easier for your form to break down and your shoulder to collapse. 

The second thing that it does is it allows you to better engage your core muscles to help you hold steady. When you lean back, you will engage muscles to keep you upright but it will be mostly on only one side. You can feel this if you do this little exercise. Stand up nice and straight and reach your hands around and place them on your lower back like a pregnant woman does when she's been standing too long. Then pay attention to how your muscles feel on each side. Now lean to one side just a little bit and again pay attention to how the muscles feel under your hands. The side that you're leaning toward will feel softer than the opposite side. That's because that side is relaxed while the other side has to contract to keep you upright. If you shoot like that a lot, it can actually cause back problems but a more immediate side effect can be premature fatigue since those muscles are working all the time you're shooting.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Dave V said:


> I'm learning that there are a lot of things we're "told" that aren't the full truth. This could be one of them. Another would be to "push the bow toward the target" or something similar. Taken to an extreme, we know pushing the bow arm can result in some wild flyers. Yes, it's not good to collapse your shoulder and let your bow arm sink back, so someone came up with this phrase to help point out our errors.
> 
> The whole thing about stance, 70% on the balls of the feet, 30% on the heels? Really? How do we measure that? Finger tension: 50%, 40%, 10% ? Again, really??? How?
> 
> I think coaches came up with things like this as an exaggerated example to break our bad habits and get us to at least be conscious of what we're doing wrong, not that we should actually *do* them on a regular basis.


Actually we dont come up with ways to con you into shooting good. 70% on the balls of your feet is to get some preload on your toes. When you expand thru release your center of gravity moves backward and if your on your heels it will make you move backward and u drift left on the target. You measure that in no backward rocking on your heels drift thru execution.

Any coach that is any good knows the bow shoulder is the most important piece of archery form. Everything you are told or instructed is to stabilize your bow shoulder. The rest is pretty cut and dry. There is a push but its built in to good form and shot sequence. Never would I or have I ever told anyone to do anything I didnt want them to do on a regular basis. Our goal is to help you shoot better not to con you with bull crap that you dont need to do. Thats just crazy thinking. 

Archery is a round motion not a straight motion. All the answers you seek are all hidden in that statement. 

Blue X


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, pistol, rifle and shotgun competing for years, stance was foremost. We didn't lean away from the target. Pistols, we were into the target. Shotguns, stand straight and lean into the shot. Rifles forms varied. I shot 300 yard Silhouette. I stood more straight up, but I was in the sling. To example; In the sling, my 10 1/4 pound Savage .22-250 would stay on my shoulder with just my offhand supporting the rifle. It actually felt like nothing. I taught more than a couple how use the sling. Using the same in the sling my .30/06 was a piece of cake. Scoped, leaning into the shot was a sure way to get "scoped." The Palma rifle I used was different. I leaned a bit away from the target and leaned a bit back and could "hunker" right into the rifle with comfort and right through the sights. Now, I can't say this would all correlate with shooting a bow as I am lefty with all firearms and shoot a bow right handed. And we aimed backwards, or at least I did, with pistols and rifles. Shotguns, you lined up and went after the target. Sights were foremost and let the target blur. Must have worked for pistols as I held two club records for years. One was 15 yard offhand slow fire. Got a 5 shot "stack" of .38 wad cutters in my loading desk. Yep, one right on top of another. Target had one hole and the roll paper showed 5. Range Master called my back stop split and out came 5 slugs stuck together. Did near the same with .44 Mag with target load. 5 consecutive 5 shot groups of .378" C/C. Won Club End of the Year High Overall in 200 meter Silhouette with a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt, 300 gr Speer SPS at 1230 fps, but then we had 4 different required positions, bench rest thru standing offhand.

Pictures and videos I don't agree on, but it seems you have your weight down on both feet, maybe a tad on the back foot. No problem. Leaning away from the target giving perhaps a center of gravity that is agreeable with you.

Heavy myself, I like straight up and feel my weight fully down on both feet. If anything I sometimes feel a bit on my lead foot and a slight shift of one foot or the other, not moved from position, will allow my weight to come down on both feet. 

3D couple weeks ago; "How can you shoot that way?" Our stake was on a down hill grade and target straight out. Astraddle the stake as permitted, my feet were wide, weight fully down on both feet, knees locked, upper body bent away from the target, but upper body in "T" form. Center punched the 33 yard 10 ring. 

I believe Bernie Pellerite penned; "I don't care how you do it as long as you do it the same way each and every time." Go to one of his classes and you'll know different.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> **Please read before commenting**
> 
> This is a topic that I see addressed, some people immediately jump all over someone for some lean at anchor, others say if it works, do it.
> 
> ...



I think some of the main reasons for people jumping on someone for leaning back are

1) They are posting a pic asking about form. If this is the case, most likely they haven't developed a very good repeatable form that works for them. If you haven't spent a lifetime perfecting a form that has some lean to it (i.e. Reo) your very likely to be better off learning what many believe to be "proper" form (not leaning back, release elbow parallel to arrow or higher, hips under shoulders etc)

2) The majority of people leaning back have never had proper coaching. Those that have had coaching most likely were taught the "proper" form bit.

3) It is much easier to see what problems an archer is having if the coach doesn't have to learn a different form for each student. Having a basic (again "proper") form to start with makes coaching easier, instead of having to figure out ways to improve every different amount of lean students may come in with. A common frame of reference if nothing else.

One CAN shoot AWESOME leaning back, but it is likely NOT the best option to learn. Put in the hours of a guy like Reo, with a coach like Dee, and you can be the best....leaning or not. Sometimes I wonder if he would be even BETTER if he learned NOT to lean as a kid.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Mahly said:


> I think some of the main reasons for people jumping on someone for leaning back are
> 
> 1) They are posting a pic asking about form. If this is the case, most likely they haven't developed a very good repeatable form that works for them. If you haven't spent a lifetime perfecting a form that has some lean to it (i.e. Reo) your very likely to be better off learning what many believe to be "proper" form (not leaning back, release elbow parallel to arrow or higher, hips under shoulders etc)
> 
> ...


That's my problem when trying to move to "proper" form. I have spent the past 17 years leaning. I have never had a coach. Right now, the biggest thing I'm fighting with is keeping my bow shoulder down, it seems like with the way my form is right now, I cannot physically move it any lower than it is. 

I've been working all day on dropping that shoulder, and this is the most I can do to get it down. It does seem to hold better for me, but I'm not sure how anything is holding because me elbow is hurting me a bit.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> I've contented myself with my lean, I've even made friends with it recently. Since learning to shoot a hinge, I've noticed that I actually shoot much worse by trying to stand straight up. Last week was a week where I decided to try and shoot straight up again, and it became a bad week of shooting that led to a sour all around attitude towards life.
> 
> I think it's really interesting that you were actually taught to lean, *was it from the desire to fit shooters with a longer DL like you mentioned? Or did coaches have another reason for it?*


 Keep in mind that my teachings were limited to club/shop instructors during the 80's...I can only assume why we were taught that. My guess is it was as mentioned with the old wheel bows. We held in the valley, then pulled through the top of the valley...basically bottoming out the cam. So, where today, you stop, then you had another 1/4" or so. Maybe it's from the recurve days...don't know. What I do know is that it's a very hard habit to break.


Wish I had something more to add but with info given here so far, seems it's been covered.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> I've been working all day on dropping that shoulder, and this is the most I can do to get it down. It does seem to hold better for me, but I'm not sure how anything is holding because me elbow is hurting me a bit.
> View attachment 2003960


Hombre, seems like you're passively turning this into a "how's my form" post..... Just sayin'


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Fury90flier said:


> Keep in mind that my teachings were limited to club/shop instructors during the 80's...I can only assume why we were taught that. My guess is it was as mentioned with the old wheel bows. We held in the valley, then pulled through the top of the valley...basically bottoming out the cam. So, where today, you stop, then you had another 1/4" or so. Maybe it's from the recurve days...don't know. What I do know is that it's a very hard habit to break.
> 
> 
> Wish I had something more to add but with info given here so far, seems it's been covered.


You should tell him even though you can't add anything else to this thread, you can still invite any pro that shoots 27 series shafts to your house that way you can outshoot them.


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

Blue X said:


> Alright heres what I see, have seen etc.
> 
> The leaned back form was usual or somewhat normal with the wheel bows and valley bows. It is usually pretty accurate at the longer distances because your bow hand comes up above your shoulder the longer distance you shoot. It can be somewhat called a consistency form over an accuracy form. You may not hit exactly what your aiming at but when you miss it wont be as far off center. You see this form a lot in FITA not so much indoor or on uneven footing venues.
> 
> ...


So here's a question for you: Since you seem to have worked with some shooters on form issues, do you encounter any guys that have to shoot a slightly longer DL once they get outside and start shooting longer distances ? I shot with a lean for a long time. 2 or 3 years ago I put effort into correcting it, shortening DL, experimenting with loop length, arm bend etc. I'm very very close to my ideal indoor setup. Now, if I take that same "indoor" bow setup, and go outside and start shooting at 40, 50, 60 70 yds, etc, the past couple years I've had to take a couple twists out of my string get the comfy anchor point back. My groups automatically shrink when I do this. I feel it's because I have to induce a slight lean into my form to hold on a long range target. 

Does this sound reasonable to you - or anybody else?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, it seems people do something and it gets ingrained or they don't have someone to help them correct issues, human or bow, so a "proper" stance comes about. The only piece I've read that sticks in my mind is that of Braden Gellenthien and Terry Wunderle. Don't know Braden, go back to sandbox class. He isn't leaning, but Braden has a stance they most say is wrong. Terry fitted him with this stance because of the way Braden is. Braden more or less backed up Terry's article with his own. By Braden's own account Terry told him he wasn't going to advance, become a also ran, if he didn't apply the corrections he needed. Braden confessed he had to dig deep within himself to conquer his erroring ways. Seems he sure did.

Slipping pages Archery magazine of long, long ago. I came across a picture of Dean Pridgen, another that if you don't know you should go back to sandbox class. Dean is lean away from the shot.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

jmann28 said:


> You should tell him even though you can't add anything else to this thread, you can still invite any pro that shoots 27 series shafts to your house that way you can outshoot them.


I'd have to open a new thread for that.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

montigre said:


> Hombre, seems like you're passively turning this into a "how's my form" post..... Just sayin'


Thanks for attempting to police my thread, but I didn't take it in that direction. I would kindly ask that if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't add anything. If this didn't belong in this forum, I'm sure Mahly would have moved it. 

Thanks.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, it seems people do something and it gets ingrained or they don't have someone to help them correct issues, human or bow, so a "proper" stance comes about. The only piece I've read that sticks in my mind is that of Braden Gellenthien and Terry Wunderle. Don't know Braden, go back to sandbox class. He isn't leaning, but Braden has a stance they most say is wrong. Terry fitted him with this stance because of the way Braden is. Braden more or less backed up Terry's article with his own. By Braden's own account Terry told him he wasn't going to advance, become a also ran, if he didn't apply the corrections he needed. Braden confessed he had to dig deep within himself to conquer his erroring ways. Seems he sure did.
> 
> Slipping pages Archery magazine of long, long ago. I came across a picture of Dean Pridgen, another that if you don't know you should go back to sandbox class. Dean is lean away from the shot.


The more time I spend studying archery, and finding different yet equally qualified opinions on form, the more I firmly believe that the only constant for every single archer is the importance of having form that you can consistently duplicate in every situation.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> The more time I spend studying archery, and finding different yet equally qualified opinions on form, the more I firmly believe that the only constant for every single archer is the importance of having form that you can consistently duplicate in every situation.


Just because you can duplicate your stance doesn't mean it's right. Good that you hint of you pictures sure show you out of whack. And could this lead to a break down is what you should be asking. Personally, if I don't have a problem with my stance I'm not going ask or discuss it as too much comes forward and too many people jump in.....


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

One of the best archers in history. My opinion is to do what works best for you. Reo does and Katie did.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Good that you hint of you pictures sure show you out of whack. And could this lead to a break down is what you should be asking.


I don't mean to be rude, but I read your post 7 times and I can't make much sense of this part. Can you clarify?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

you show a pic and mention that you are not aligned (you lean)

he's saying a qood question to ask would be

I know I lean but I'm consistent and in general, consistent through out the entire day. Can you guys be specific as to what would, could or will break down in my form as a result from leaning? or something not even close to this


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Fury90flier said:


> He's saying that you're not aligned. That the proper question might be as follows.
> 
> I know that I lean but it seems to work for me...What problems to you guys forsee with my form. Can you be specific in to what and how the from will break down?
> 
> ...


That would be a legitimate question, but I think that asking that question would push this topic towards Coaches Corner, so I didn't ask it. The only reason I posted follow up pictures is because several people were giving advice on my form, and I didn't want to give the impression that those people were being ignored.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Went back and reworded what I had posted...don't think I did a good job.


Coaches corner is a great place to ask that type of question. But, general archery or this section is acceptable as well.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Okay, here's my take on the whole form thing and its correlation to peak performance.

I think, by and large, "proper" form helps a lot of people. However…

Out of all the dominant professional shooters of today, there may be 2 who have what most here would consider proper form. The rest, and actually the MOST dominant shooters, do not have proper form. Sergio Pagni, the posterchild of string contact at the face and an unorthodox draw arm, not to mention his release choice. Reo, has been discussed ad nauseum. Braden, discussed previously. Martin Damsbo would be hearing about how his draw length is too long, and his shoulder is too high. Probably one of closest to "proper" form, would be PJ Deloche. As soon as we look at a proper form, we immediately come back to guys like Peter Elzinga, who also has some lean. Chris Perkins would likely hear about how his lean is no good, and his DL is too long. 

Now, I don't know if all of the above shooters were coached to shoot the way they do, but there isn't one amongst them that hasn't won extensively on the world stage. I believe that they have been as successful as they have, because they have embraced and built upon the shooters that they are. How many years would most of these guys be set back if they all tried to develop a "proper" form? I don't think we'd see them on the world stage again if they did, and if we did it'd be a long time.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure plenty will disagree.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

mikesmith66 said:


> So here's a question for you: Since you seem to have worked with some shooters on form issues, do you encounter any guys that have to shoot a slightly longer DL once they get outside and start shooting longer distances ? I shot with a lean for a long time. 2 or 3 years ago I put effort into correcting it, shortening DL, experimenting with loop length, arm bend etc. I'm very very close to my ideal indoor setup. Now, if I take that same "indoor" bow setup, and go outside and start shooting at 40, 50, 60 70 yds, etc, the past couple years I've had to take a couple twists out of my string get the comfy anchor point back. My groups automatically shrink when I do this. I feel it's because I have to induce a slight lean into my form to hold on a long range target.
> 
> Does this sound reasonable to you - or anybody else?


When you shoot long range do you raise your bow arm or bend back at the waist to raise your pins or scope? Reason I ask is that I find if I go from 70yards and jump down to 20 yards, I notice that I'm standing more upright at 20. I consider 20 to be my flat ground/level bow arm position. Anything beyond that, I try to remember to not just raise my bow arm but to keep my alignment through my shoulders and arms and slide my hips forward as I need to raise the bow for longer distances. I don't really notice this happening at 20-40ish yards but I do notice it more so from 50 and beyond. 

If you were leaning back more than you need to raise your pin or scope to the long range target, your anchor may change as your head moves further away from the string as you lean back. If you bend at the waist, like you would for an up/down hill shot, the string position and anchor should not change. For me, I only want to bend enough to get my sight on target but I try to do so without changing my position from my belly button and up. So any extra lean that you have may make your DL seem a little shorter and that could by why you require a few twists out of the string.

I hope that makes sense haha.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> Okay, here's my take on the whole form thing and its correlation to peak performance.
> 
> I think, by and large, "proper" form helps a lot of people. However…
> 
> ...


so you bring up the question can someone shoot accurately with a lean. the answer is yes, some can.

for myself, nope, I can't, I got more accurate and consistent when I got rid of what little lean I had.

Question is, can you? and judging from your posts I would say your not at all sure.
I get the impression that you don't really want to do the work it takes to get better either. 
so justify your lean all you want, if your happy with it, OK. 
if your not take all this  to Coaches Corner.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

I believe ElMuchoHombre has opened a discussion on this aspect of form in a thoughtful way. Having been involved in a variety of sports and professionally in firearms as an instructor; having a baseline from which to instruct is necessary. Every aspect of form is for a reason - to achieve an objective. However, adhering to perfect form is not the objective. Ultimately the only thing that matters is performance.

For beginners, it is easier to begin with building from generally accepted good form, as it will for most people, quickly get them to a point of becoming aware of the objective, be it balance, center of gravity, leverage, etc . . . Once an athlete can self diagnose how well they are achieving the objectives, they can begin to make fine adjustments, even if it deviates from "proper form". Provided these changes don't create other problems and performance improves or are used as a crutch to support some other weakness or flaw, I see nothing wrong with this. 

There isn't a sport I can think of where one or more superstars performing at a high level haven't deviated from "proper form" and they excel. Given that we are all different sizes, proportions, center of gravity, let alone not perfectly symmetrical ourselves - it comes as no surprise to me that within a group of archers, one or two will perform better having some variance from "proper form". 

I shoot with a slight lean away from the bow. I can shoot in a perfect archer's T, but find that my too much weight is on my leading foot. I lean back slightly to achieve equal weight distribution which results in more stability at full draw, and far better balance on anything other than a flat floor.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Bees said:


> so you bring up the question can someone shoot accurately with a lean. the answer is yes, some can.
> 
> for myself, nope, I can't, I got more accurate and consistent when I got rid of what little lean I had.
> 
> ...


Your perception is awful, and you really need to work on your reading comprehension. 

I'll try and not devolve into an all out attack.

Your first problem here is that judging thing. Probably a better idea if you didn't do that. 

I've been shooting for 17 years, and I wouldn't be heading into a national tournament if I wasn't confident in my ability to perform with my form as it is. 

As for doing the work to improve, what exactly would you call shooting 4 hours a day, blank baling for a month, and keeping score on every arrow? At what point do you consider the work that others do up to your standards? 

I'm not justifying anything with this thread, I was interested in discussing lean in general. A handful have read and understood that intent, while a few, including yourself, have chosen to ignore that intent and instead belittle me and talk to me like I'm an idiot.

ETA, I don't see a Mod banner next to your name, so instead of directing me to take my thread elsewhere, why not contribute something other than condescension and superiority, or can't you be bothered with engaging in constructive conversation? Isn't that the point of this forum, to get like minds together and have discussions?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

ElMuchoHombre said:


> Your perception is awful, and you really need to work on your reading comprehension.
> 
> I'll try and not devolve into an all out attack.
> 
> ...


Look first you say you can stack arrows at 90m like its your job, yea right. (Reo can't slap arrows at 90M and it is his job.)
next you say you can't hold on the x during a session
now you say look at all the work I've done bla bla bla... 
well do you like the results? 
if not go to coaches corner and fix what is really wrong.. 

At some point in time you have to realize what is a waste of your time and what is really working for you.

I still get the impression you want everyone to say your lean is OK and it isn't an issue. 
and you really don't want to do the work to get rid of it. that is what you leave me with. 

your score will never change if you don't change something to make it change.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Bees said:


> Look first you say you can stack arrows at 90m like its your job, yea right. (Reo can't slap arrows at 90M and it is his job.)
> next you say you can't hold on the x during a session
> now you say look at all the work I've done bla bla bla...
> well do you like the results?
> ...


What you leave me with, is that you're calling me a liar. 

You want to call me out for something that you perceive, and then attack me? If you've got a problem, it's your problem. Act like a grown adult and be civil.

Please show me where I said my scores aren't improving? You can't. Because I didn't. 

You've said your piece, and you're continuing to act like a horse's ass. I could post pictures of 100-110 yard groups, but you'd just call me a liar again. You're convinced that I'm doing everything all wrong, that I want to hear everyone tell me it's alright. Last I checked, I didn't ask anyone to tell me it's alright. In fact, I only posted a photo to highlight what I was specifically talking about. 

Now, I'll leave you with something you don't have to interpret or read into, go pound sand. This is my thread, and you've contributed not a single helpful thing to it, and I'd appreciate it if you'd remove yourself entirely from it. 

Thanks for your cooperation.


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Mahly, please close this thread. It has devolved into exactly what I didn't want it to.


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