# Hoyt Buffalo of Black Widow PSA II



## Grassman (Nov 16, 2007)

Currently have a Black Widow PSAII with two sets of limbs and have been considering selling it to buy a Hoyt Buffalo! Any Thoughts? Or am I just NUTS????


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Grassman said:


> Currently have a Black Widow PSAII with two sets of limbs and have been considering selling it to buy a Hoyt Buffalo! Any Thoughts? Or am I just NUTS????


Nuts...

Mac


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'd sell it and get a couple ILF rigs personally. But then again I never bought the BW hype, probably because they stopped really innovating before I was born.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm not as taken with the Black Widow designs as some, but for pure aesthetics...yeah, the Buff ain't exactly a looker, in my eyes. If I were looking for a bow along those lines, I think I'd probably go with the Dalaa, probably with the ILF limb pockets.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I'd sell it and get a couple ILF rigs personally. But then again I never bought the BW hype, probably because they stopped really innovating before I was born.


They have a design that works well...and the bow holds it's value more than many others (which is a good thing for what they cost...)

That said...if I was just wanting something new..then it would be a custom rig...and we all know there are a bunch of top notch bowyers out there..My first choice for a moderate priced custom curve..is a Assenheimer...Don's bows are second to none for their speed/shootability..drop dead good looks..and how quiet they shoot..and relative short build time...A Schaffer Silver tip would be my next choice...but it would cost me more..and I would have to wait longer to get it..A Tall Tines would also be in line...but again...more money than what I have coming from Don...as well as a Black Tail...but...a year to 1-1/2 year wait...I couldn't deal with..

Lot's of good custom choices to consider...as well as the ILF rigs...with Morrison and Border's being at the top of the heap

That said...if you like your widow and shoot it well...keep it...if your looking for something new...the choices are staggering...

Mac


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

grantmac said:


> I never bought the BW hype, probably because they stopped really innovating before I was born.


Apart from new materials being used, who has brought anything totally new into Trad Archery in the last 10-15 years lot of reinventing of the wheel but nothing totally new.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ive owned and shot both and still have my widows.........



Dewayne


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## bigtone1411 (Nov 3, 2011)

I have shot the Buffalo and I do like it. I may even own one someday, but there is no way I would trade my widow for it.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I would keep your widow. If you want something like the buffalo do what some others have said and put together a nice ILF setup. Get some more top end limbs and see if you like them.


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## trentcur (Feb 26, 2009)

The BWs are completely and purely hype, so I think that you should sell your widow immediatly for a dirt cheap price and go get that buffalow..................... PM me and we will work out the details.......... like I said dirt cheap  hehe

Seriously....... I had a buffalow and let it go. Nice bow, but would never trade for the widow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

steve morley said:


> Apart from new materials being used, who has brought anything totally new into Trad Archery in the last 10-15 years lot of reinventing of the wheel but nothing totally new.


I view bows as one of the ultimate examples of materials-tech, so for my I consider new materials to be innovation. BW hasn't changed the recipe in decades, instead they have rested on past achievements.

-Grant


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Pretty wood means nothing to me. Cost means next to nothing. The only thing that matters to me is how well a bow groups arrows.

Among the hunting class recurves I've shot under 64", no bow has shot so well as the Hoyt Buffalo for me. I happen to think it's an ugly bow but this matters not to me. For pure shootability without going the Olympic recurve route with bows over 66", I'll choose a Buffalo every time. I would do so even if they cost 2 grand apiece. That's how impressed I've been with the 2 Buffaloes I've purchased. Have already begun unloading all my other recurves - including a Black Widow.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I shoot a league on Tuesday nights, one guy has a Buffalo- [email protected] and another an older Widow 59#@28. I've shot both and while both are too much weight for me I prefer the Buffalo - He did get some 45# limbs for the Buffalo and had them last week. Now that makes for a nice bow, not sure if they are worth $700 but pretty sweet for sure.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have both and I like both of them very much 

The Widow pound for pound shoots a faster arrow


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## blkfootmigrator (Mar 19, 2011)

Trade Ya !

Send me a PM if interested ....


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## Mark Land (Dec 4, 2003)

I shot BW bows for 12 years and had 5 of them including 2 SA's, 2 HS58's and 1 HF-1225, the SAIII and SAII bows were my main hunting bows and thought the world of them and never envisioned ever changing or getting rid of them until I got my Buffalo in Jan. The BW bows stayed unstrung and hanging on the rock since Jan. That Buffalo is an amazing bow, much smoother, quieter and faster and with the adjustments I can tune and set up the bow to fit me. It feels like I am drawing a 45# bow even though I am shooting 54#. All my BW bows are for sale now and have already sold 3 of them.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

JParanee said:


> I have both and I like both of them very much
> 
> The Widow pound for pound shoots a faster arrow


......Are You sure about the arrow speed comment??..Have You tested both of these bows, in a scientific, apples to apples test??.....Widows are pretty quick, but when they are set up for speed, they are loud...And WILL NOT take the combined effect of a light arrow/skinny string like the Hoyt will....I've owned 3 Widows, they are great shooting bows, very well made, and beautiful....But I got over the looks of a bow a while back....The Widow is a great bow, but I'd choose the Buffalo over it.....Jim


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## Mark Land (Dec 4, 2003)

I can vouch for the Buffalo speed I basically have a pro shop in my office here at Muzzy and have a chronograph, 2 in fact, and have tested my bows. Side by side, same draw, same arrow, same bow weight, the Buffalo was 8fps faster and after I changed out the factory Hoty string for 1 of my own, 18str 8125 w/double sets of catwiskers I picked up another 3-4fps as well. So overall I am shooting 11fps faster with the same draw weight, arrow and draw length, yet the bow feels like it draws much smoother. That's why the BW bows are hanging on the shelf for me and which I never thought would happen!
Not a slam on BW by any means and I truly enjoyed and love shooting those bows and took alot of game with them, but the Buffalo just does it a little better for me. Not crazy about the length and wish it came in a shorter riser version, but with the other benefits I can over look that.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Mark Land, what got me was how accurate I was with the Buff. I'd come from Howard Hill longbows all my life and more recently many different wooden hunting recurves like the various BW's, the Martin Hunter, Bob Lee's and assorted Bear recurves. I really liked the Hunter and the Super Kodiak. I liked my Widow too. But the Buffalo shot so much more accurately for me it was like I was shooting a compound bow barebow. The Buff just stayed dead in your hand after release and grouped arrows like I did not think I was capable. 

My first effort at the 300 round with a borrowed Buff of 50 pounds and wooden arrows of my own making, I shot 252. Previously with other recurves I averaged about 233-237. I'm pretty consistant albiet not capable of tremendous scores. Just going to the Buff jumped my scores almost 20 points.

Now I own 2 Buffaloes and have shot the 300 over a dozen times. My best is a 257 and my worst a 242. I'm averaging 249 with wooden arrows. I'm also shooting about 53# with a 60" bow for these scores. My other 62" model I've set up for carbon arrows. It's 5 pounds lighter. I've not had time to shoot the 300 with that bow yet.

For me it's the accuracy of these Hoyt Buffaloes, not speed or smoothness or lack of sound, just plain score is all I'm interested in. And they deliver like no other hunting bow I've ever shot. I only shoot the 300 for practice and training. I mostly shoot 3D. We have separate classes for wooden and carbon arrows in my league. Thus the two bows set up for different arrows.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I owned three Black Widows a TF, and SA, and a PSA - I bought an ILF Trad Tech Pinnacle with the Extreme BF Limbs - and sold all the Widows


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Sharp, I've shot the Pinnacle and really liked it. If that was the only bow I could use for the rest of my life I wouldn't feel sorry for myself. Still, I found the stupid Buffalo lightyears ahead in steadiness. I wish this were not true because the Buffalo is ugly and the Pinnacle is rather nice looking.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have only shot a buffalo once and I did not like the grip at all - I also don't like the fact that I cannot get a 64" version - or that the it is not ILF so that I could use the limbs I have on it. I think Hoyt made a big mistake by not making it ILF


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Another thing to consider - some guys talk about "custom" bows - the reality is that other than a choice of veneers and riser woods - an ILF bow is MUCH more custom than any Black Widow. If you have an ILF bow - you can adjust the pre-load of the limbs so that the bow is drawing as smooth as possible at your individual draw length - you can change the force draw curve - you cannot do that with a Widow. If you want to adjust the tiller with an ILF bow - it is as simple as turning a bolt - with a Widow you would have to send it back to the factory and pay over $100.00 to have the tiller changed - and if you wanted to change it back - same thing again. An ILF bow also allows you to mix and match risers or handles with limbs from several different makers - you cannot do that with a Widow.

If you want a bow that is custom to your shooting - ILF is the way to go - if you want a bow that is custom in the window dressing department - then any "custom" bowyer can do that for ya.

also - none of my Widows were as fast as my Tradtech


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## Mark Land (Dec 4, 2003)

Shibumi I agree, I believe I am much more accurate and consistent with the bow and I think alot of that has do with the grip and the tunability of the bow to the individual as well. I like small throat grips and I did change out the Buff grip with a higher wrist grip off 1 of my Dorado's and liked it much better then the original low grip that came on it. I know my 1st 8 shots on big game this hunting season resulted in 1 bear, 6 does and a 11pt buck, not to mention several squirrels, armadillos, etc. so cannot complain there and those were anywhere from 12-30yds with 30 being on the long end of my confidence range, but with this bow and how I was shooting, I had no reservations on taking that shot and double lunged the deer perfectly! I really like that bow!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

the one thing the buffalo has is versatility.. you can change grips ,tiller , weight etc etc etc and was design after ther formula rx fita bow... and yes you could make it longer by buying even the hoyt cheap excel formula limbs in a med or long length.. or the more exspensive f series ... possibilities are endless..


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Funny thing about the horrible factory grip on the Buffalo. I actually find the splinter grip to reduce torque greatly. I shoot the factory grip off the web of my hand with no palm pressure below. Not how I shot growing up and it felt funny at first. But the guys at Hoyt must know something and stuck that skinny grip on for a reason. For me it shoots extremely well with the less contact I make the better. I've tried other grips and have gone back to the crappy-looking factory splinter grip.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Grassman said:


> Currently have a Black Widow PSAII with two sets of limbs and have been considering selling it to buy a Hoyt Buffalo! Any Thoughts? Or am I just NUTS????


Just remember...you asked...so here it is..

2 decades ago i was a state level shooter and club champ bhfsl (compound fingers) for more than several years running..and wound up right in the middle of the NFAA VS IBO days...NFAA was all about accuracy while IBO was all about speed..and i enjoyed 3D competitions far more than punching paper..but then it started..the "SPEEDWARS"...and the obsession for an ever faster super tuned compound was non-stop...why am i telling you this?..to brag on myself?..no...i'm telling you this because in the end?..it sucked all the fun out of archery for me...i went through bows like underware upgrading at times twice a year...just to keep up with the jonses out there...stress, pressure..new home, wife and family...and hung it up..as i had gotten to a level where it just wasnt fun anymore..it was more like a job tending to a high maintainence addiction..and mothballed my bows...for 20 years.

I bought a new omen compound about 9 months ago...and it got boring quick...then drug out my old bob lee recurve and enjoyed the challenge of shooting again...omens been hanging on the hooks ever since.

Now...i dont know much anymore and ILF "Rigs" werent around in my day..but to me?..they sound an awful lot like compounds without wheels...and that's a huge turn-off to me..and i pray to God that i never want "adjustable limb bolts" on my recurve and i probably dont have a worry in the world cause i'd never buy a trad barebow that has a machined aluminum riser.

I'm of the opinion that the folks who are obsessing over accuracy so much that they need such technology?..will one day soon hit a wall like i did many moons ago..and the spiritual beauty of archery will be destroyed for them..as peace and fun leave the building whilst false pride and ego takes it's place.

Those who have the desire and discipline to become great archers could shoot a sapling strung with parachord and hit their spot..they dont need super adjustable "Rigs" that resemble wheel-less compounds...and they will rarely if ever brag of their skills.

Keep your widow bud.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jinkster - 

1. the IBO has always been about accuracy - speed is a factor in accuracy - the top IBO shooters are just as good of shots as the top NFAA shooters or any other top shooters. No top shooter in the IBO ever sacrificed accuracy for speed - that is just nonsense.

2. You don't know much about ILF "rigs" as you call them - all it is is a limb attachment system - your Bob Lee has a limb attachement system too. There are several ILF bows that are not machined risers - they are laminated wood - no different than your Bob Lee.

3. Obsessing over accuracy? We should all be obsessing over accuracy. An ILF bow is not going to make a lousy shot a great shot anymore than a Bob Lee will. Accuracy is about dedication and love of the sport - and those who are dedicated and love the sport have different preferences in equipment - that is all it is.

4. These comments about "whee-less" "rigs" need to go - here are a few photos of some of those rigs that you claim resemble a compound:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jinkster -
> 
> 1. the IBO has always been about accuracy - speed is a factor in accuracy - the top IBO shooters are just as good of shots as the top NFAA shooters or any other top shooters. No top shooter in the IBO ever sacrificed accuracy for speed - that is just nonsense.
> 
> ...


You obviousely missed my point and cant relate...yet...but you're well on your way.

and imho?..when you got a guy here asking if he should trade his widow for a buffalo?...somethings fundamentally flawed.

and it aint...."The Bow" LOL!


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Jinkster, I came at archery from the exact polar opposite from you. In fact we are about the same age. (mid 50s) I started shooting John Shulz longbows in high school during the early 70s. Then I switched to Howard Hill Archery bows out of Montana. As hard as this might be to believe, in all those years I never shot, let alone owned, a recurve bow. I would not even look at a compound and still do not consider the "compound" a bow. (not to start a separate issue)

I never shot a carbon or alloy arrow until a few years ago. All I shot were heavy Hill bows and wooden arrows. I toured all over the US shooting at various longbow and IBO events when my work allowed me. I competed year-round. I loved my longbows. Then a funny thing happened. I stopped finding others shooting Hill bows at the events I loved to compete in. Many a time in the last 5 years, or so, I'd show up at a longbow event and not see a single straight-limbed longbow.

All the competitive longbow men had switched to "cheater" hybrids with recurve grips and highly reflexed limbs. They were able to drop 12-20 pounds of draw weight and keep the same velocity. I found myself an island alone among an ocean of high-tech longbow men.

So I quit the longbow - the real longbow as I see it. And for the last 18 months I've decided to switch over to the recurve and compete on an even footing with my fellow recurve shooters. I've shot and owned a ton of recurves in the last year or so. None have proven better than the adjustable models that do allow tiller and limb changes. The Buffalo happens to suit me perfectly but any good ILF rig will do what my Buffalo is capable of.

You got sick of gadgets and went one direction. I got sick of nobody wanteing pure simplicity and made myself seek out a more modern version of the classic recurve. I happen to love the adjustability and can understand why most shooters do too.

You'll never see me with a compound bow. I'd put a cigar out in my own eye before I'd shoot one of those things. But an ILF recurve? That seems perfect to me.


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Shibumi said:


> I got sick of nobody wanteing pure simplicity and made myself seek out a more modern version of the classic recurve. I happen to love the adjustability and can understand why most shooters do too.
> 
> .


I have to ask you Shibumi - This statement makes it look as though you forced yourself to change something (pure and simplistic) that you loved doing for the purpose of leveling competition which is understandable. My questions is, do you still enjoy shooting a real longbow outside of competition or is competition the sole reason you shoot? Please don't read anything into this as we each have individual reasons for what drives us and the variety in archery is one of the best aspects of the sport IMHO. Just curious.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

a "real" longbow - what the heck - so a takedown longbow is not a longbow? An ILF is simply a takedown longbow - and it is very simple - and once you make the adjustments to your individual shooting style - you will never adjust it again - unless you change your style.

What is great about ILF bows - is that you can make the bow custom to you and your shooting style - that is all - other than that - it is simply a takedown bow - there is nothing magic about them - other than with the right limbs you can shoot lighter arrows than most other recurves or longbows without damage to the bow.

The "custom" that the felt hat and flannel shirt guys like is picking out the wood for the riser and the veneers for the limbs - they want a "pretty bow" - the custom that the ILF shooter wants is a bow that he can tune to his individual shooting style and draw length.

My Tradtech is quiter, faster, and for me - more accurate than any of my Black Widows. With a heavy arrow it is only a few fps faster than a Widow - but I can shoot a lighter arrow with the Tradtech and the bow does not get excessively loud like the Widow did. I would not say that it is any smoother drawing than the Widow - but something about the stability or feel is different and I can shoot it more accurately than I could my Widows.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Shibumi said:


> Jinkster, I came at archery from the exact polar opposite from you. In fact we are about the same age. (mid 50s) I started shooting John Shulz longbows in high school during the early 70s. Then I switched to Howard Hill Archery bows out of Montana. As hard as this might be to believe, in all those years I never shot, let alone owned, a recurve bow. I would not even look at a compound and still do not consider the "compound" a bow. (not to start a separate issue)
> 
> I never shot a carbon or alloy arrow until a few years ago. All I shot were heavy Hill bows and wooden arrows. I toured all over the US shooting at various longbow and IBO events when my work allowed me. I competed year-round. I loved my longbows. Then a funny thing happened. I stopped finding others shooting Hill bows at the events I loved to compete in. Many a time in the last 5 years, or so, I'd show up at a longbow event and not see a single straight-limbed longbow.
> 
> ...


That's cool man...and thanks for sharing that..i think ultimately we're all different in our individual growing experiences as archers yet the same in many ways..for instance..you experienced the same affect with non-hill bow shooters as i did with release vs finger shooters..i can remember a day when the finger shooters out-numbered the release shooters..on compounds...but the "product" of mechanical releases saw larger purses for release shooters and soon?..i was showing up to shoots where 40 of the 50 competitors were pulling triggers instead of strings and i was repulsed..figuring if i gotta pull a trigger i might as well shoot my rifle..to me it just wasnt archery anymore and the real sucky part was with a mech. release?..any joe schmoe could be packing them in the bull inside a week..the skill level dropped to trained monkey level..and it depressed heck out of me.

On another note (wether this will make you feel better or not) to me?..these hill bows are stick bows..yes...a flavor all their own but..R/D designed bows can be traced back to mid-evil times when archers steam bent limbs for increased performance on the field of battle..is it still cheating?...or just a better buggy whip?..in which case i see and accept your veiwpoint regarding the ILF "Rigs"..however...there is a key word you used that's a bit of a rub for me these days..that word is "competeing"..and while i may attend and shoot 3D matches these days?..

I have no desire to best another archer...i only wish to best myself..one arrow at a time..and in a spiritual fashion..and to me these days?..."that" is "winning"...to me?..the ILF "Rigs" are somewhere's between a trad bow and an oly bow..and i'm just trying to keep things simple these days and i can see where these "Rigs" could turn me into a professional tinkerer rather than a great archer.

I prefer the latter...but of all the venues of todays archery?..it always boils down to personal choice..L8R, Bill.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

My widow with 61 pound limbs is faster than my Buffalo with 65 pound limbs 

The buff is pulling 2 to three pounds heavier than the widow at my draw and is smoother I will say that 

I like my buff very much and I hunted with it this year and did not pick up the widow except to play with it 

But my Bob Lee is smoother my Fedoras are faster and my tips a lot prettier than the Buff  

All and all after changing the grip on the Buff I really do like it


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

everyone that I have met that competes - competes against himself - not the other archers in the competition. I have attended so many 3D competitions that I cannot even begin to count them all - and only once - did I ever meet an idiot at one that was out to win and win only - of course he did not - all the rest of the guys I have met were great guys out there trying to shoot the best that they can and encourage others to do the same. 

These nonsensical attempts to divide traditional archers make me sick. There is a huge difference between an ILF and a compound - there is no comparison. An ILF is simply a take down bow - nothing more and nothing less. An olympic recurve bow without a clicker, stabalizers, sights, rest and plunger is no different than any recurve bow - to claim otherwise is absurd. 

I shoot my ILF Tradtech Pinnacle wood riser bow off the shelf - it has no sights, stabalizers, rests, clickers - etc... - this bow is no more or less traditional than any laminated takedown bow - and it is absolutely absurd to claim there is a difference.

These types of comments are divisive and serve no purpose. If archery is such a spiritual thing for some - then maybe they should consider being more charitable to others who enjoy the sport for what it is and don't make a new religion out of it.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I for one am very interested in ILF bows and see them as being no different than any 3 piece take down with just some room for slight adjustment 

I wish my Buffalo would take ILF limbs I am dying to try those extreme carbon limbs and I have been talking to John at Trad Tech and I am waiting for there new riser to come out 

Which riser would you suggest


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I like my Pinnacle - I like a longer bow - with my pinnacle and the long limbs it is 64".


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

> *The "custom" that the felt hat and flannel shirt guys like* is picking out the wood for the riser and the veneers for the limbs - they want a "pretty bow" - the custom that the ILF shooter wants is a bow that he can tune to his individual shooting style and draw length.





sharpbroadhead said:


> everyone that I have met that competes - competes against himself - not the other archers in the competition. I have attended so many 3D competitions that I cannot even begin to count them all - and only once - did I ever meet an idiot at one that was out to win and win only - of course he did not - all the rest of the guys I have met were great guys out there trying to shoot the best that they can and encourage others to do the same.
> 
> These nonsensical attempts to divide traditional archers make me sick. There is a huge difference between an ILF and a compound - there is no comparison. An ILF is simply a take down bow - nothing more and nothing less. An olympic recurve bow without a clicker, stabalizers, sights, rest and plunger is no different than any recurve bow - to claim otherwise is absurd.
> 
> ...



What a typical hypocritical load of manure you love to spread Ken...It's ok for you to say these divisive things right ? 


I have a news for you...as part of that floppy hat/flannel shirt type folks you love to slam... getting to pick out the various woods is part of it and one we love to have the choices of doing...it goes much deeper than that..and from your statements here...I can clearly see you won't never fully understand or appreciate the reasons...and can't see the forest for the trees as usual...so I won't waste my breath trying to explain to you what they are...Maybe one day...you will...but...it is very doubtful that you will...and for that..I can say I truly feel sorry for you.

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This bashing of fellow bowhunters was started by those attacking ILF bows - the phrase "felt cap flannel shirt wearing" - is a tongue and cheek way of refering to those traditional elitists who hate everything from ILF bows to baiting, from ground blinds to deer cams, from treestands to camo - it is meant towards people who bash and divide hunters and archers - not literally anyone who wears a flannel shirt or a felt cap - I wear flannel shirts in the winter for crying out loud. I first heard it used by limbwalker a former member of the United States Olympic Archery team and a traditional bowhunter.

I have no problem if picking out wood is what you enjoy - but don't bash those of us who prefer a bow that is more custom to our shooting than our aesthetic side. I don't expect you to get this - as you don't expect me to get what you say - but comparing an ILF bow to a compound is ridiculous.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

cossack said:


> I have to ask you Shibumi - This statement makes it look as though you forced yourself to change something (pure and simplistic) that you loved doing for the purpose of leveling competition which is understandable. My questions is, do you still enjoy shooting a real longbow outside of competition or is competition the sole reason you shoot? Please don't read anything into this as we each have individual reasons for what drives us and the variety in archery is one of the best aspects of the sport IMHO. Just curious.


I take no offense. If it were not for competition I seriously doubt I'd shoot any bow. I do not hunt and have no interest in killing anything. For me the weekly quest to outshoot my pals is what drives me. Archery is like golf to me.

At this time I do not even own an longbow of any kind. All I have are modern recurves. They are my new golf clubs. You know, clubs with graphite shafts and titanium heads. No more rosewood Arnold Palmer junk for me. LOL I've gone neo baby!


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> everyone that I have met that competes - competes against himself - not the other archers in the competition. I have attended so many 3D competitions that I cannot even begin to count them all - and only once - did I ever meet an idiot at one that was out to win and win only - of course he did not - all the rest of the guys I have met were great guys out there trying to shoot the best that they can and encourage others to do the same.
> 
> These nonsensical attempts to divide traditional archers make me sick. There is a huge difference between an ILF and a compound - there is no comparison. An ILF is simply a take down bow - nothing more and nothing less. An olympic recurve bow without a clicker, stabalizers, sights, rest and plunger is no different than any recurve bow - to claim otherwise is absurd.
> 
> ...


Hey, listen pal: I never compete against myself. What would be the point? That's new age "let's not hurt anybody's feelings crap." I go to 3D shoots to compete against others. I don't give a rip about my own score as long as it's one point better than the other guy's. That's what competition is. How can you not understand that? Did you not play sports as a child or in high school? I played football into Division I at Ohio State and loved nothing better than to crush my fellow man on Saturday afternoons.

I shoot my bows today to win. I happen to like my shooting pals too. We do have fun and laugh and hoot on each other. It's not a bad environment each Sunday. But make no mistake, we all try to grind each other up in ways old men do in their old age. It wouldn't be pretty if we played tackle football each Sunday instead. LOL

So save me your goody two-shoes attitude about competition. I love it and this is why I shoot the bow. Others feel just like I do even if they are not inclined to come on a public forum and make such a statement. Why do you think the IBO is such a popular event? There are still a lot of old football and baseball kids out there doing other things to get their competitive fix as they age and slowly fall apart at the seams.

Believe me, if I were still 19 years old, I'd not shoot 3D each weekend. I'd still be playing free safety looking for somebody coming off the edge to bury.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow.


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## blkfootmigrator (Mar 19, 2011)

It amazes me how the original topic gets twisted into some Else's ego......lets be courteous and post self proclaimed expert opinions on another thread.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

blkfootmigrator said:


> It amazes me how the original topic gets twisted into some Else's ego......lets be courteous and post self proclaimed expert opinions on another thread.


No need to get personal or nasty. A guy asked me why I shoot a bow and I told him. It didn't rise to your level of what's right and proper. Big deal.


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## gobblengrunt (May 23, 2006)

back to the subject, i have had both bows. the widow is a great bow, nice looking, and bullet proof. the buffalo has the adjustability to tune to your shooting style but has its limitations. hoyts paralever system (not ilf) has few choices on limbs. i beleive its very overpriced for its purpose. if you are looking for a metal riser with adjustability i would lean towards an ilf. there are great choices from tratdtech titan II and pinnacle III (metal risers). if you are looking for a wood ilf there are great choices from tradtech, dryad, morrison, and zipper. most archers would not benefit from a tuning standpoint with most ilf bows but just the choices of limbs and grips the can put on them to change the feel, length, poundage, etc. widows hold thier value very well also. try to shoot both bows before buying. black widow has a trial run program and you can shoot the hoyt at many shops. good luck with your choice.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Shibumi must hold several titles and won several world chamionships - whats your name so we can look you up. 

Anyhow the original topic was about the difference between a Widow and a Buffalo, which is similar in concept to an ILF bow - and the topic was derailed when somone started comparing ILF bows to compounds - a typical ignorant, divisive, and elitist comment - that bugged the heck out of me and I responded to it and the subject became more focused on that nonsense - I guess I should have left such a silly statement alone and not even wasted my time responding to it.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> *Shibumi must hold several titles and won several world chamionships - whats your name so we can look you up.*
> 
> Anyhow the original topic was about the difference between a Widow and a Buffalo, which is similar in concept to an ILF bow - and the topic was derailed when somone started comparing ILF bows to compounds - *a typical ignorant, divisive, and elitist comment* - that bugged the heck out of me and I responded to it and the subject became more focused on that nonsense - I guess I should have left such a silly statement alone and not even wasted my time responding to it.


:angel:


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Fella's.....Lets put some Fact into this debate.....Fact#1....Reflex/deflex "Hybrid" design bows go back to the Bronze age, or before...We are talking 3000 years ago, and the bowyers in the Middle East and northern Africa were laying up composite bows of complex and efficient designs when Europeans were still wearing animal skins, and living in thatched mud huts...So, a Hybrid design IS as Trad as Trad gets....Fact #2...Recurves have been around in one form or another since the Ancient Greeks, or before, and have been in use since the Bronze age as well....Fact #3...Take down bows of various designs, and metal handled bows have been around since the mid 1800's, at least, and pre-date Fiberglass, epoxy resin glues, Dacron/HMPE strings, and aluminum arrows....How TRAD is that???..Fact #4....Compound bow technology such as adjustable limbs, Plunger holes in the sight window, stabilizer holes, stabilizers, wrist slings, draw checks, adjustable sights, and the like were ALL used on Recurves before the Compound was on the market....The mid 70's to late 80's was kinda like the "Dark Ages" of Trad archery, wherein there was alot of things that were forgotten, alot of things that were hidden, and alot of things were misconstrued and flat out lied about to suit a certain mindset of the front runners of the Neo-Trad "Movement"....I'm amazed that folks that have access to the Internet, or a T.V. with any of the Educational channels hasnt seen through all the smoke and mirrors over 20 years later.....Like my buddy used to say....."There's them that Know, them that dont Know, and them that dont know that they dont know"....L.O.L......Y'all have a great Christmas......Jim


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Shibumi must hold several titles and won several world chamionships - whats your name so we can look you up.
> 
> Sharp? I've seen your YouTube videos, all your public presentations. I have no such inner need to be "known". I could not be more insignificant if I worked at it.
> 
> The difference between us is I understand I'm not important to the world at large - and you're struggling mightily with this same realization.


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Shibumi said:


> I take no offense. If it were not for competition I seriously doubt I'd shoot any bow. I do not hunt and have no interest in killing anything. For me the weekly quest to outshoot my pals is what drives me. Archery is like golf to me.
> 
> At this time I do not even own an longbow of any kind. All I have are modern recurves. They are my new golf clubs. You know, clubs with graphite shafts and titanium heads. No more rosewood Arnold Palmer junk for me. LOL I've gone neo baby!


Fair enough. That's one of the great things about this sport, it appeals to all levels and has no age limit.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Grassman -

I have sold a lot of things that I eventually regretted selling.

Many of these things I re-bought - usually at a higher cost.

If you like shooting the BW, I would hold onto it and try to swing buying the Buff as a second bow.

Then later, if you find yourself only using one or other, you can thing about selling one of them.

Or you might find you enjoy having both of them !

Good luck with your decision !!

Me, I'm keeping ALL my bows ... AND thinking about getting an Abbott longbow !!!


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

IAIS604 said:


> Grassman -
> 
> I have sold a lot of things that I eventually regretted selling.
> 
> ...


Sage advice. A man can not have too many bows. 
George-I picked up an Abbott at a shoot last month and you won't be dissappointed. Steve builds some quality bows, fair prices and they are a pleasure to shoot.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Jink:


You've managed to build-up a lot of opinions and prejudices in your what, 2 months, of trad shooting. Some of us have been making, shooting and competing with the stickbow for decades. Just to lay it all on the table:
I'm 27 and I've been shooting stickbows since I was 5. Thats right, 22 years.
At one time I used to complain about how other people approached the sport:

"Well if you aim then your cheating"
"I'll take my selfbow and shoot like a real man"
"That 3D didn't have any ethical hunting shots in it"
"If your going to shoot that why not just join the compound guys?"
"Well it doesn't matter where I score because I made this bow myself from a tree, nobody else here did that!"
"You could never hunt with that weight, thats a target bow and this is 3D!"

Its all just insecurity, a need to prove how "Trad" you are. How born-again non-compound.
Now I shoot what puts the arrow where it needs to be. For me thats a 68" ILF bow, but you know its just another recurve. It doesn't have any let-off, sights, stabs or release.

We've got a saying in my line of work "switch to listen". Might be applicable here.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

nice post grantmac - I could not agree more


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Jink:
> 
> 
> You've managed to build-up a lot of opinions and prejudices in your what, 2 months, of trad shooting. Some of us have been making, shooting and competing with the stickbow for decades. Just to lay it all on the table:
> ...


Grant...while I appreciate what your saying from your perspective...I respectfully disagree with some of the things you are saying..because of his newness to shooting a traditional set up...you are forgetting he is coming from a wheel & cable world...where he did quite well in it..Insecurity has nothing to do with it..he is just totally enraptured by it..How can I say this...I'll use your analogy...

I'm 56 years old...and I have been shooting for getting close to 50 years..I started when I was 8 years old in 1963...so I've been doing this longer than you've been alive..and maybe even your folks..depending on how young they were when you were brought into the world..I have a good read on Jinkster...and what he is doing...and also where he is coming from..Insecurity isn't it Bro...A little scared perhaps...but...not insecure..He is throwing himself into something that is helping cleanse his soul...All one has to do is to look where he was a short time ago..and where he is now..2 months is a blink of a eye for most of us..but knowing what he is dealing with...is a eternity to him...Born again non-compound...naw...Proud Traditional Shooter I would say...and loving every minute of it..

Now..as to all of your quotes...I feel...

If you consciously aim...you are cheating...*if* you claim you are shooting instinctively...

Folks who shoot self bows...they can be different ..and for many..it is a macho trip..Same for any other sport..that doesn't always mean insecurity...

I'm guessing with your 3d comment...this was a tournament where folks complained..? Possible insecurity...but..I would say ill informed on what truly is ethical or not..Many don't know...since all they shoot is a broadside shot at 10 yards with light weight bows...?

Many who don't shoot OLY rigs...and have never seen that type of bow..don't understand...and yes...some indeed compare it to a wheel bow..I would wager most of them aren't shooting 30-35 lb Olympic style bows too...In many folks eyes...seeing a fully dressed out one...the similarities in shooting them and how they look are obvious...To those who shoot them...they forget this salient fact.It doesn't matter that it doesn't have any let off..and your using your fingers..Holding 30-32 lbs to some of us for many minutes aiming with a pin & peep is not really that difficult...

Those that shoot what they build have a right to be proud...and as long as they are having fun...and if it doesn't matter what they score to them...why should it matter to anyone else...?

The last one...I have heard believe it or not..and I know where they are getting that notion...unfortunately...3d tournaments...are a far cry from any real hunting...and is mainly competition for those who are serious about competing ...Their notion is that 3d tournaments should be shot with what they consider a real hunting weight bow..not you..or the state your shooting in..It's a personal opinion...

One last thing...You should know...many times folks will say these things to you...just to get under your skin and try to get you to screw up...I used to let BS like that bother me...but..have learned over my time on the planet...to ask for their true reasons...and can sort out BS when I here it..Being around as long as I have...has given a pretty good perspective on doing this..

You all have a Merry Christmas..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh brother

_"If you consciously aim...you are cheating...if you claim you are shooting instinctively..."_ Hmmm - and other than being able to read anothers mind - how would you determine if someone is aiming at a conscious level or not? 

I could go on - but won't - it's Christmas time and this stuff is sillyness


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Mac, overall I liked your post. It wasn't silly to me but well thought out.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh brother
> 
> _"If you consciously aim...you are cheating...if you claim you are shooting instinctively..."_ Hmmm - and other than being able to read anothers mind - how would you determine if someone is aiming at a conscious level or not?
> 
> I could go on - but won't - it's Christmas time and this stuff is sillyness


I can't...and have never said as such and knowing this...I can state..and put the appropriate emphasis on the word *again*..they are not only cheating and trying to deceive others _*If..*_ they are doing so...but they are also cheating themselves..

One should understand when a single word is singled out with such emphasis put on it that is a special notation....but that won't happen with you Ken...since you are completely unable to see or read others true meaning in what they post...and as such..you always have to put your twisted logic on it..Such a shame on such a beautiful morning..

Thanks Shibumi...

Enjoy the day folks...It's Christmas

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> Jink:
> 
> 
> You've managed to build-up a lot of opinions and prejudices in your what, 2 months, of trad shooting. Some of us have been making, shooting and competing with the stickbow for decades. Just to lay it all on the table:
> ...


 yeah... but its a recurve.... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I hunt ONLY with muzzleloaders... where guns are allowed, and have with the exception of one deer that was FORCED, not fired a single shot at game with a centerfire since 1991. I also hunt predominently with a longbow. These are choices that one makes of ones own free will. It is not about being traditional, it is not about bein "Rad". It is about free will and choices. It also isn't about the other guy and what he shoots... that is why the arguments against crossbows are so inane... they are archery too... but... but... but...

Free will and choices for ourselves seem to be our free will and choice for ourselves until someone else wants to exercise their own free will and choices.... If you're a hunter, hunt. What your neighbor drives doesn't make a difference to you in how he gets to work, shouldn't matter to you how or what he uses to hunt with either.... well... firearms maybe in archery season... but then I hunt all season with a bow or my muzzleloader... you know choices... Game doesn't automatically move from 10 yards to 100 yards with the calendar... they make choices due to pressure... so hunters should also... The winners I know follow the adage of hunters everwhere.... go deeper into the bush and eat what you hunt.... that's an attitudinal admonishment of an old timer I knew.... For Whatever This Has To Do With Black Widows... :grin:

Mele Kalikimaka...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Jink:
> 
> 
> You've managed to build-up a lot of opinions and prejudices in your what, 2 months, of trad shooting. Some of us have been making, shooting and competing with the stickbow for decades. Just to lay it all on the table:
> ...


Well Grant..to be honest?..i read your post..chuckled to myself (recalling how i conducted myself at your age) and decided it would probably be a great idea to not even dignify you ramblings of a personal attack on me with a response feeling no sense of shame in not defending myself against such sillyness..but since it seems others have stepped to the plate for me?..i've reconsidered...so here ya go son..

Opinions?..yep..guilty as charged..no doubt i've formed a lot of'em since i was born in 1958 and twice your age...and i challenge you to have less when you hit 54..cause it seems like you have accumulated quite a few yourself but the difference between our opines is i'm voicing mine about my take on todays current line of archery tackle..whilst yours seems to be more aimed at the character assasination of other members here.

Insecure or scared?...LOL!...lessee here..you're 27?..born somewhere's around '85?..i was attending Parris Island Marine Corps Boot Camp in Nov. of '77...8 years before you were born..I've been married for 22 years living in the same new home i had built in '89 with 3 daughters whom i had pre-paid college for all 3 in the safe deposit box for by '98..(my two oldest are attending FAU now)..i've owned dozens of high end sportbikes and currently have a Suzuki Hayabusa in my garage that i sometimes haul up to the mountains for bi-annual "Busa Bash" sportbike rallys in the back of my long since paid for Nissn Titan Crew cab P/U..so?..insecure?..absolutely not..i'm an aerospace machinist working for the same company for over 7 years now..scared?..you betcha..but only of myself and my ability to destroy things...including myself.

Now..just for verification purposes?..lets see if i can put a face with the claims cause i just found a few interesting pics of myself..

The Marines?..still at parris island in my dress blues..










and i do hafta admit i was one of the few of the few that actually liked our sister branch..the navy LOL!










and wound up stationed with VMA-214.."The Blacksheep Squadron"..out of El Toro, Ca.










This is 2 old pics i scanned (together) years ago..my wife took them..on our honeymoon in cancun mexico june of 1990..the top pic is just me wiped out after the long night/trip in our resort hotel room..but the bottom pic there?..look closely at my neckline..it's a diamond cut 14K gold arrowhead a ladyfriend bought for me when i came in 2nd place at a NFAA/FAA state indoor championship in Brooksville, FL...shooting fingers, compound BHFSL...and at that time i was 32 years old..and could still jog indefinantly holding 6 minute miles and cleanly bench 350lbs (but only 1 time as i only weighed 158) and had asperations/dreams of making big easy money becoming a cage fighter...glad i got married and settled down! LOL!










and my local club was rather proud of my accomplishments as well..



















Then i spent a few years as local club champ competeing in USPSA/IPSC Tactical Shooting..










Well..somewhat...cause a few years back i made the cover of KillBoy..riding the mountains on my Busa...










but it's not as scary as that 2000lb brahman bull i rode at the corrals of naval air station millington, tn LOL! (1 time..lasted 3 seconds LOL)

so?..while i am many things?..scared or insecure aint one of'em. LOL!

And grant?..there's many times i feel folks have a tendency to adopt an alter-ego and type things from behind the safety of their own keyboards that they wouldnt normally come out and say in person...and if they did?..i think their father would probably smack'em in the back of their head for disrespecting their elders..knowing...that they still have a lot to learn...about life. LOL!

Well?..enough about me...as i think i've devulged enough about myself that others here may better get to know me..and i hope i defended my honor in an appropriate fashion here..even though i never really felt compelled to until others stepped up for me..and my wish for you all this holiday season is that you all are blessed enough to live as fullfilled and secure life as i have and free of fear..after all..i spent several years of my life defending just that for us all. 

But I will admit..i am currently extremely obsessed with my new found love for trad..and i know i've been coming on a tad strong so..my most profuse apologies (like that one thorwulfx? LOL!) and i'll do my best to tone it down a notch. LOL!

Merry Christmas..Happy Holidays and?..L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

and all of this has what to do with the fact that you have been shooting trad for only a couple of months and are on here acting like an expert and bashing other trad hunters and shooters and their choice of equipment? I have won many tournaments and can shoot with the best of trad shooters and hold my own - but that does not mean I know a darn thing about compound shooting - and I don't - just because you won some tournments with a compound does not make you an expert in traditional archery - in fact - it says nothing about traditional archery - just like my winnings in trad archery mean nothing in compound archery and testify to nothing of my knowledge of compound archery.

Whatever - it is Christmas - I just got done playing with a stupid cool gift from one of my daughters - a silly little remote controlled helicopter that is fun as heck -  My wife bought me a nook - but it doesn't work - so that has to go back - but now I will have lots of books to read while passing time on the stand -  Now I am going to go check my deer cams. Yesterday I saw a HUGE buck - but the wind changed and before he got into bow range he ran - I hate swirling winds! Off to go check my stands and then go to the traditional Latin Tridentine Christmas Mass to celebrate the birth or our Lord.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Jinkster....In the pic with the woman.....That is one good looking WAVE....And Your hair cut (or lack thereof ??) is seriously Un-Sat!....L.O.L...But then again, I reckon that Hollywood Haircuts, and beautiful women are just another thing on the list of benefits of Swingin' with the Wing, huh??......L.O.L.......Merry Christmas, and Semper Fi,,Devil Dawg!!......Jim


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> and all of this has what to do with the fact that you have been shooting trad for only a couple of months and are on here acting like an expert and bashing other trad hunters and shooters and their choice of equipment? I have won many tournaments and can shoot with the best of trad shooters and hold my own - but that does not mean I know a darn thing about compound shooting - and I don't - just because you won some tournments with a compound does not make you an expert in traditional archery - in fact - it says nothing about traditional archery - just like my winnings in trad archery mean nothing in compound archery and testify to nothing of my knowledge of compound archery.
> 
> Whatever - it is Christmas - I just got done playing with a stupid cool gift from one of my daughters - a silly little remote controlled helicopter that is fun as heck -  My wife bought me a nook - but it doesn't work - so that has to go back - but now I will have lots of books to read while passing time on the stand -  Now I am going to go check my deer cams. Yesterday I saw a HUGE buck - but the wind changed and before he got into bow range he ran - I hate swirling winds! Off to go check my stands and then go to the traditional Latin Tridentine Christmas Mass to celebrate- the birth or our Lord.


He isn't the one acting like a expert here Ken......


Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Who gives a crap about what anyone else shoots. How is it that what I shoot is better than what you shoot? If I can't afford what you shoot, how does that change reality? I shoot what I can afford and more importantly, want to afford. How I hunt is my choice. Where I hunt is my choice. If you do more, go further, accomplish more... what is it to me? 

I have to laugh at people that criticize others... it only means that they are jealous, and then of course there is ETHICS... how I do it compared to how you do it... Only things that matter... is it LEGAL. There are more and more threats to our hunting... the Endagered Species Act and Environmentalists and Humane Society of the US with over 200,000,000 in Assets, suing your asses to keep you from Hunting... and we criticize *each other????* Mele Kalikimaka.... it might be your last.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Now I know why I like Trad Gang better


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Now I know why I like Trad Gang better


Trad Gang would be OK if it were not for Terry Green and his henchman Rob. You can have that pair of Nazis.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sorry double post


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't post 2 much on here but from what I have seen it is kinda a negative place 
At least over there I see a lot of people helping each other and communing in a civil manner
Here folks seem to have a more condescending attitude even when they are helping people
I have been a trad archer for 30 some years
I don't shoot tournaments besides the occasional 3 d shoot 
I hunt, at times in my life a lot
I don't care what anyone uses to hunt with weather it be crossbow ,gun,compound or trad gear and I would not presume to tell someone what to use 
What has happened on the Internet i believe Is because people are not face to face and you never no who you are talking to. People post up there accomplishments to show that they have weight in there words and opinions which is only normal and I guess everyone is guilty of it myself included 

I guess it is only human


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

People here do help people...and..there are good people...and not so good people at times...All places are like that...and everyone can have a bad day from time to time too...I like all of the archery forums..here...Trad Gang...Leather Wall..Trad Talk..even the Widow Wall...and enjoy each in it's own way..since they all are different..

I still think the OP would be nuts to trade...or sell his Widow for a Buffalo...but...in the end...it isn't up to any of us...only him..

Mac


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

JParanee, I dislike any kind of censorship unless somebody is threatening bodily harm. At Trad Gang you cannot go against Green or that other goofball Rob D. To even disagree with either of them is to disappear. You will notice TG has a huge turnover of readers. Many drop in and then drop out just as fast. That place is way too controlled and most adults don't care for that kind of environment.

I mean no overt disrespect but you seem to forget what many people forget about all forms of media: If you don't like the message, the subject, or the persons involved, then don't read that thread. Most of this forum does not interest me in the slightest - so I don't read that part. It's just like TV. Bad program? change the channel. They have a lot of channels available here. And one other thing. All threads, good or bad, die of their own weight within about 48 hours max. This thread will be dead in less time than that.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

well back to topic christmas stress I see.... I would sell the bw just to try the buffalo.. you don`t like it... sell it and buy something else then ... life is too short to not live to the fullest... we are talking about something materialistic that can be replaced at the drop of a dime.. Heck guys its known fact we trade in wives now for new ones and they do the same with us...lol lol Its best to voice an opinion of your own but don`t pi-- on somebodies else choice ...Live on the wild side go for it....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> and all of this has what to do with the fact that you have been shooting trad for only a couple of months and are on here acting like an expert and bashing other trad hunters and shooters and their choice of equipment? I have won many tournaments and can shoot with the best of trad shooters and hold my own - but that does not mean I know a darn thing about compound shooting - and I don't - just because you won some tournments with a compound does not make you an expert in traditional archery - in fact - it says nothing about traditional archery - just like my winnings in trad archery mean nothing in compound archery and testify to nothing of my knowledge of compound archery.


For once Sharp is the only one that gets where I'm coming from, this IS a crazy mixed-up world 
I was talking about MYSELF a few years back: full of opinions and judgement about other people's equipment and technique. Used to look down on the Oly guys shooting bows that "just about shot themselves", talked a lot about "training wheels". I did shoot instinctively, but these days stringwalking or gap seem to work better. I LOVE building selfbows, like shooting them too; truth is they just aren't really effective in competition (in spite of RangerB's amazing videos). Then I realized that a bag full of opinions and excuses doesn't make a lick of difference to how you shoot. Just like a pretty bow isn't always a shooter.
Now I just show-up with my equipment which meets the letter of the rules. I shoot the course regardless of how the shots are set, they are the same for everyone. I completely accept that my equipment has been chosen to be as competitive as possible with no regard for aesthetics (although to me it IS pretty). At the end of the day I generally do VERY well, unless Ren is shooting 

Opinions are a poor thing to voice without experience. Not a personal attack but as in most things, its the new "converts" that sing the loudest.

-Grant


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> For once Sharp is the only one that gets where I'm coming from, this IS a crazy mixed-up world
> I was talking about MYSELF a few years back: full of opinions and judgement about other people's equipment and technique. Used to look down on the Oly guys shooting bows that "just about shot themselves", talked a lot about "training wheels". I did shoot instinctively, but these days stringwalking or gap seem to work better. I LOVE building selfbows, like shooting them too; truth is they just aren't really effective in competition (in spite of RangerB's amazing videos). Then I realized that a bag full of opinions and excuses doesn't make a lick of difference to how you shoot. Just like a pretty bow isn't always a shooter.
> Now I just show-up with my equipment which meets the letter of the rules. I shoot the course regardless of how the shots are set, they are the same for everyone. I completely accept that my equipment has been chosen to be as competitive as possible with no regard for aesthetics (although to me it IS pretty). At the end of the day I generally do VERY well, unless Ren is shooting
> 
> ...


 What makes you think you two stand alone?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Shibumi did you every try IFAA (NFAA) Field/3D? Longbows are 'D' shape when strung so Hill style Bows and some R/D bows are used like 21st century but you wont see any hybrids or takedown Longbows.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay..here it is christmas and i'm sitting here feeling bad despite my excitement over my new trad gear and newly re-found love for stickbows...trying to think..okay Bill.."what's the next right thing to do?"..so here it is..

"I Apologize"...to any and all whom may have taken my personal opinion based commentary.well?.."personal"..it was not my intent to offend anyone but just to share "my personal opinion" regarding the OP's decision of wether or not to off his Black Widow for an ILF Buffalo.

Yes..i'm a "recent convert"...and loving it...and my opinion was soley based on my own personal experiences as..to me?..the ILF Bows comprise just about every aspect of a compound sans wheels and cables where the bow can be adjusted and tuned to the archer rather than the archer adjusting to the bow..which to me the latter holds much of the skill involved..like a compound..tiller and poundage can be tuned and adjusted..the only dif it holds for me is is holding 14lbs at my lips or 40...and where i would get more of a thrill and hold more admiration for the archer who can deal with a true old school style stickbow and nail apples at 20yds than watching an archer with an adjustable limb ILF (almost oly type bow) nail ping-pong balls at 40...and again...that's JMHO and obviousely not shared by all. 

If I myself adopted the mindset that "I'm going to shoot whatever i shoot best with"?...i'd be blowing the dust bunnies off my compound and strapping on a wrist release..but for all who took offense at the airing of my "personal opinion"?

I apologize..sincerely, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hmm - I will apologize - but in my applogy - i will bash ILF bows again and compare them to compounds again - better to just remain silent than to "apologize" - in fact - in my "apology" I will go a step further and claim that ILF shooters have less skill because they tune their bows to their shooting.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Bill I understand where your coming from and can see you didn't intend to trash anybodys methods or equipment choices.

End of the day it's the person behind the string. I watched Liam Grimwood (one of the top compounds in the world) pick up some guys English Longbow and shoot a very respectable 20y group (better than the Bows owner).


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> hmm - I will apologize - but in my applogy - i will bash ILF bows again and compare them to compounds again - better to just remain silent than to "apologize" - in fact - in my "apology" I will go a step further and claim that ILF shooters have less skill because they tune their bows to their shooting.


Ken...grow up would you...Good Grief...I honestly have never seen a supposed grown man act and say the things you do here...It's a fact...a ILF rig has* similarities *that a compound does..sans the wheels and cables...Are you honestly saying they all don't ? He gave his opinion...nothing more...and is not "bashing" anything...if you actual took the time to read what he is saying...you would understand this...Only you would take it as such...Perhaps you should take your own sage advise...and say nothing...

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Okay..here it is christmas and i'm sitting here feeling bad despite my excitement over my new trad gear and newly re-found love for stickbows...trying to think..okay Bill.."what's the next right thing to do?"..so here it is..
> 
> "I Apologize"...to any and all whom may have taken my personal opinion based commentary.well?.."personal"..it was not my intent to offend anyone but just to share "my personal opinion" regarding the OP's decision of wether or not to off his Black Widow for an ILF Buffalo.
> 
> ...


 You don't need to be apologizing to anyone Bill, you're entitled! You have a right to enjoy your life, your equipment, and pleasure in your experimentations and to post them as well... For those of us that enjoy your posts.... :thumbs_up.... for those that don't... there is an answer,,, :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> Ken...grow up would you...Good Grief...I honestly have never seen a supposed grown man act and say the things you do here...It's a fact...a ILF rig has* similarities *that a compound does..sans the wheels and cables...Are you honestly saying they all don't ? He gave his opinion...nothing more...and is not "bashing" anything...if you actual took the time to read what he is saying...you would understand this...Only you would take it as such...Perhaps you should take your own sage advise...and say nothing...
> 
> Mac


It's alright Mac..dont put yourself at risk..all of his posts all say the same thing on my end now.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> hmm - I will apologize - but in my applogy - i will bash ILF bows again and compare them to compounds again - better to just remain silent than to "apologize" - in fact - in my "apology" I will go a step further and claim that ILF shooters have less skill because they tune their bows to their shooting.


 Some people just can't help themselves can they.... Just so some of us can understand this clearly.... are there any medical terms for this?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Some people just can't help themselves can they.... Just so some of us can understand this clearly.... are there any medical terms for this?


Actually there are...but...I suspect there are multiple issues manifesting themselves here in this case...so I would be very hesitant to say any 1 thing causes this...and no...I am not a doctor...but have stayed in ta Holiday Inn Express several times

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Actually there are...but...I suspect there are multiple issues manifesting themselves here in this case...so I would be very hesitant to say any 1 thing causes this...and no...I am not a doctor...but have stayed in ta Holiday Inn Express several times
> 
> Mac


 :grin: Happy New Years....


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> hmm - I will apologize - but in my applogy - i will bash ILF bows again and compare them to compounds again - better to just remain silent than to "apologize" - in fact - in my "apology" I will go a step further and claim that ILF shooters have less skill because they tune their bows to their shooting.


I dont know if I understand Jinkster's posts as bashing, I think that for the most part, he is just saying that He doesn't want to shoot an adjustable limb bow, and wants His personal experience with Trad Archery to be about simplicity, and skill sets that involve more "Old School" equipment and shooting styles...Which is his choice, and His stating opinions to an open forum about this is O.K. as well....I do see the apology as a bit "tongue in cheek" as well, but , really I could care less what anyone else shoots, or thinks about ILF bows, osage Pony bows, Asiatic composite bows, or compound bows for that matter....I shoot what I like, and what I shoot the best with....I figure that as long as another Archer's arrows aren't aimed at me, I could care less what they launch those arrows out of...Now if I am at a shoot, and someone starts some mess with me about my bow choice in person, I'll handle it differently, until then, who cares??.......Take care.........Jim


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Good to see the traditional shooters have ford chevy , Mathews, Hoyt arguments over nothing like in the general section.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have no problem with difference in opinion - it is bashing that I don't like - it is divisive and stupid. If someone doesn't like ILF bows fine - but don't compare them to compounds or claim that they require less skill to shoot - because that is bovine excrement of the highest order.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I know some people have a thin skin. It is interesting that those with the thinnest skin have the sharpest tongues at times.... and are also prone to braggadocio and self aggrandizement and rigid inflexible opinion. Tis a pity too... there is a lot of knowledge available on this site.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Yep: I shoot what lets me shoot my best, a nice heavy riser and a pair of fast limbs.

But if you think for one second that ANY trad bow of any material or configuration is substantially easier to tune or shoot: then you've got another thing coming. Every aspect of trad shooting revolves around the archer, you should never tune yourself to the bow or you are compromising some aspect of your shot. Regardless of limb or rest tuning: you've got brace-height and string composition, plus the endless array of arrow possibilities. 

Holding weight on a compound vs. Trad bow is insignificant to accuracy. The single biggest factor to accuracy is the ability to set a defined draw-length on the compound, the single greatest variable in shooting a trad bow is draw-length. That is why the anchor and form are so essential, otherwise its like shooting a gun with different loads.

-Grant


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

It's not easy to get your true meaning on these Forums, I find it better/safer to take posts in a positive light rather than seek out the negative in peoples posts.

Nothing wrong comparing compounds to trad bows, I for one use compound scores as my benchmark as they're the most stable/consistant from tourney to tourney, (we all shoot from same stakes here in Europe) I know I'll never match those scores but doesn't stop me trying to reach those levels, if they don't shoot max score I know it was a tricky course and not too hard on myself if my score was lower than normal.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> Yep: I shoot what lets me shoot my best, a nice heavy riser and a pair of fast limbs.
> 
> But if you think for one second that ANY trad bow of any material or configuration is substantially easier to tune or shoot: then you've got another thing coming. Every aspect of trad shooting revolves around the archer, you should never tune yourself to the bow or you are compromising some aspect of your shot. Regardless of limb or rest tuning: you've got brace-height and string composition, plus the endless array of arrow possibilities.
> 
> ...


 While I agree with you, especially regarding anchor, I think that your interpretations of what is important to most archers is missing. Most archers aren't into the minutiae of bow tunining. I fuss with stuff because I like to fuss with stuff. I learn a lot from fussing... but when it comes to shooting, I've been happy with the same arrows at times, from 75# recurves to 60# longbows... and now a 45# recurve. It satisfies the need. On other occasion, I've wrapped my wood arrows with copper binding to affect spine... now I've discovered that taper or reducing shaft diameter might accomplish the same thing... I'm learning on that part... sanding works for sure on dowels... 

But the point of this is this, we all like information. Most Archers, IN MY OPINION, like the informtion for the sake of information and aren't going to the length of minute score on tuning to exact that last centimeter from the group.... I think most are probably happy with being able to accomplish a group. I could be wrong.. but.... :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think the point Jinkster was making was the more primitive the bow the less tuning options you have and will have to adapt your shooting more towards how the bow shoots, something like an ILF Oly Recurve with elevated flipper rest, pressure button, adjustable tiller etc, like a compound will allow greater accuracy *potential* but end of the day it's always the person behind the string that makes the real difference.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> I think the point Jinkster was making was the more primitive the bow the less tuning options you have and will have to adapt your shooting more towards how the bow shoots, something like an ILF Oly Recurve with elevated flipper rest, pressure button, adjustable tiller etc, like a compound will allow greater accuracy *potential* but end of the day it's always the person behind the string that makes the real difference.


 Ever see your kids with a BB gun? Most innaccurate devise manufactured for the purpose of flinging objects.. but flying cans... multiple shots into a tin can... without aiming even.... interest and motivation... the adage.. "caution the man who only owns one gun"... You learn from experience.... and ultimate experience comes from experimentation.

Aloha... :beer:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Ever see your kids with a BB gun?


Not a good idea, oldest isn't quite 3 yet lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - but the problem is - and has been pointed out to this man who insists on continually making his divisive comments - is that there are many on this site that shoot ILF bows without any of the add ons you mentioned - they shoot their ILF bows off the shelf with no rests, sights, plunters, stabalizers, etc...

To use his flawed logic - the argument could then be made that a guy who has a bow custom made for him has less skill as an archer than someone who buys a Bear or Martin off the shelf - the whole thing is stupid beyond belief.

These "opinions" should be kept to ones self - for all they do is cause division - bowhunters and archers need to find common ground - not what divides us - sepcially when there is no division to begin with.

One thing about opinions - they are like butt holes - everyone has one.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> Not a good idea, oldest isn't quite 3 yet lol


:grin: Ok.... but... you had one didncha... :grin:?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Steve - but the problem is - and has been pointed out to this man who insists on continually making his divisive comments - is that there are many on this site that shoot ILF bows without any of the add ons you mentioned - they shoot their ILF bows off the shelf with no rests, sights, plunters, stabalizers, etc...
> 
> To use his flawed logic - the argument could then be made that a guy who has a bow custom made for him has less skill as an archer than someone who buys a Bear or Martin off the shelf - the whole thing is stupid beyond belief.
> 
> ...


 Well yeah... but not everyone has hemorhoids


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

but they have a cream for those - or so I have been told -


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

steve morley said:


> Shibumi did you every try IFAA (NFAA) Field/3D? Longbows are 'D' shape when strung so Hill style Bows and some R/D bows are used like 21st century but you wont see any hybrids or takedown Longbows.


Steve, I have in the past shot several field rounds in parts of New England where NFAA field round is shot. Unfortunately, so few traditional style shooters showed up that we were all lumped in together. (recurve/longbow) In my area that game is a compound sport. I do remember once shooting with another man who had a "longbow". His longbow was a DAS riser outfitted with a plunger, high-wristed grip, one small stab and limbs that were highly reflexed. The string did not touch the limbs at brace height so he was good to go. LOL Howard Hill would have vomited.

I don't so much mind the modern limb shape - it's the fully centercut risers of great mass shot with recurve grips. That makes the bow so much easier to shoot and that's why everyone uses them under the guise of calling it a "longbow". Pure nonsense if you ask me. Recently when I switched to recurve after shooting Hill bows for so long, my scores jumped so much it startled me. It honestly did. I thought I gain (maybe) 10 points for 30 targets of 3D. It's been a jump of closer to 30 points.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Final answer to the posters question - Black Widow Bow or ILF Bow.... I have a third option:

Grandkids on Christmas - tops them all!


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Well yeah... but not everyone has hemorhoids


I just spit coffee all over my keyboard on that one. :thumbs_up


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

I hope all this "discussion" is helping the OP ..... ukey:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

*Thread closed.*


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