# Brady shooting ILF



## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

Wheres GT he loves the term ILF


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Lololololololololo lololololololo

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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

Interesting! I guess Hoyt doesn't really care. 


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

what riser is that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hoyt Epik "Grand Prix"

Replacement for the GMX


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

That sounds like a death rattle to me...


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

It wasn't his plan A bow, but this shows that he shot great with an ILF bow he just put together!


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Very interesting indeed! I could imagine using a backup bow to keep it broken in or using a practice bow for training, but at his level that makes no sense. His sponsors would give him as many copies of whatever he wants (or what they want to show off).

I wonder when Hoyt might give up on Formula. It is too much product differentiation and reduces the size of their market due to the lack of interchangeability. I also wonder if mechanically the fitting yields much benefit over ILF. Kudos to Hoyt for trying, though - there is no innovation and product advancement unless you try stuff, and trying stuff means that sometimes it won't pan out.

One thing I dislike in the current Hoyt marketing, though, is the goofy intentional mis-spelling of product names. It looks like a mistake to me, so I wonder what else they got wrong in the product and avoid it. It sends the wrong message for a company that positions itself as a top-tier manufacturer. It makes more sense for a cheap hillbilly knock-off to be named like that.


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## TheElBow (May 18, 2015)

j.conner said:


> One thing I dislike in the current Hoyt marketing, though, is the goofy intentional mis-spelling of product names. ...


One thing I like as a German in the current Hoyt Marketing, however, is the current, correct spelling of product names. ...


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## droy (Dec 21, 2012)

Good Marketing - win in Sunday (Saturday in this case) sell on Monday. Lets see if the sales numbers of EPIK GP go up this week!!


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

I still am a ILF fan. So is my Closet to many to change now.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

TheElBow said:


> One thing I like as a German in the current Hoyt Marketing, however, is the current, correct spelling of product names. ...


:wink::thumbs_up:guitarist2:
That was a good one!


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

lksseven said:


> :wink::thumbs_up:guitarist2:
> That was a good one!



X2!, :thumbs_up


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

theelbow said:


> one thing i like as a german in the current hoyt marketing, however, is the current, correct spelling of product names. ...


lol!


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Or perhaps he is just tinkering with different gear 3 years out from an Olympic year to get an understanding of it. If nothing more it would allow him to better answer questions he might get on that riser, limb combo from fans etc.


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## damiaan (Feb 17, 2014)

real question is, whats the last time brady wrapped his grip in the tennis grip like that?


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## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

SBills said:


> Or perhaps he is just tinkering with different gear 3 years out from an Olympic year to get an understanding of it. If nothing more it would allow him to better answer questions he might get on that riser, limb combo from fans etc.


this is what it is pretty much, he is just playing with that setup so he can better answer questions from people asking about it. it was posted on another picture of his shooting that bow on instagram i beleive.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I'd be with iArch on this one, she was there.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

The reason Brady shot the Ilf is because his main bow was damaged in an accident of some kind and he had the Ilf in his bag and tuned so he shot it.

source: Brady Ellison


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Does anyone honestly think that it matters what bow Brady shoots? I bet you could have handed him an oldschool Yamaha or GM and he still probably would have been able to slam the score that he did in the conditions we were shooting in.

The only thing that should be surprising that it isn't being talked about on these forums is the recent addition to the USA Archery suspensions list...


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

let's let the suspension issue go. we are not in high school. whatever happened, happened and talking about it only stirs up the rumor mill.
The individual in question is generally thought of as a good guy and he is going to have a hard time recovering from suspension, if he can recover at all.

Let sleeping gossip lie... just my humble opinion.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

jennpsu said:


> let's let the suspension issue go. we are not in high school. whatever happened, happened and talking about it only stirs up the rumor mill.
> The individual in question is generally thought of as a good guy and he is going to have a hard time recovering from suspension, if he can recover at all.
> 
> Let sleeping gossip lie... just my humble opinion.


Yeah you're right. I'm just surprised because you see everything on these forums nowadays. My post was pretty tactless.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

people are curious and that's natural... unfortunately, sometimes it makes bad situations worse. Trust me, I am as curious as anyone but, it's not productive.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

Is there a link to wherre you saw that Ellison said that was why he used that bow? I am curious just because it seems strange for someone of his caliber to not have an identical setup in case his primary equipment failed. Heck, my kids I coached in hockey had the same sticks and taped the same way if one broke.

Just seems odd to me, that is all.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

There's no link... I asked Brady myself. He has an ILF setup for testing and that's it plain and simple. 
I know Brady from shooting USAT and traveling with him on World Cup trips. He's a good guy.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

jennpsu said:


> There's no link... I asked Brady myself. He has an ILF setup for testing and that's it plain and simple.
> I know Brady from shooting USAT and traveling with him on World Cup trips. He's a good guy.


I never said he wasn't  I was just curious. From a coaching point of view you can understand why it might seem odd to someone. I have coached at the college level in hockey and took a team to the Nationals. 

No offense was intended...just seemed strange from a hockey player/coach POV


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i was never was tempted to even try the formula since the very beginning..

i believe in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" principle---and besides i have too much invested in my ILFs..


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

I had a very interesting conversation with Doug Denton of Hoyt regarding the Formula/ILF debate. He made some very convincing points regarding the stability offered by the extended pocket of the formula riser.

I have a w&w setup that I use and a Hoyt formula setup that tends to be my competition bow. I have to say my scores with the formula setup are way better than the scores I put up with the w&w. I don't believe it's a matter of favoring one over the other as I feel both are excellent setups. 

However, I find with the Hoyt setup I can definitely get a better arrow value out of a questionable shot. This is especially true at 70 meters.

To each his own really... archery is all about personal preference, right...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Long time ago, Sony invented the Betamax propertary format for video recording, and went in competition to the VHS format from JVC, but suppored by ALL other manufacturers. Betamax was by far a superior recording system, but never become a standard and lost the battle to VHS. 
Being a superior technical solution does NOT grant the right to survive.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

jennpsu said:


> I had a very interesting conversation ...... the Formula/ILF debate. He made *some very convincing points* regarding the stability offered by the extended pocket of the formula riser.
> 
> ..


Would you mind to share with us these points?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chang said:


> Would you mind to share with us these points?


I think one point is obvious by simple comparison. If you have ever been cast fishing, ask yourself if you had more control of the rod tip when your hands were close together at the base of the rod or did you have more control/stability/efficiency and accuracy when your hands were farther apart?


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Not meaning to derail the thread but on the topic of equipment changes, I saw Vic Wunderle shooting his PSE bow on day 1 and then a Win&win AXT with wiawis on day 2. I was really curious what caused him to switch in the middle of the tournament? To me it seems like a big changeup in the middle of a tourney. (I follow Vic as the Brady before Brady)
Day1








Day2


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

Seattlepop said:


> I think one point is obvious by simple comparison. If you have ever been cast fishing, ask yourself if you had more control of the rod tip when your hands were close together at the base of the rod or did you have more control/stability/efficiency and accuracy when your hands were farther apart?


Mechanically, We are talking about rigid joint between 2 mechanical parts here. what kind of control would an archer apply to the joint?

Technically, I would like to know if a long/wider joint really offer better torque resistance, balance and stability.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chang said:


> Mechanically, We are talking about rigid joint between 2 mechanical parts here. what kind of control would an archer apply to the joint?
> 
> Technically, I would like to know if a long/wider joint really offer better torque resistance, balance and stability.


Pretty sure an engineer as good as Earl Hoyt Jr. would have considered this when he developed the ILF system. But what do I know.



> To me it seems like a big changeup in the middle of a tourney. (I see follow Vic as the Brady before Brady)


That's a very astute observation. Vic was "Brady before Brady" but unfortunately for him he peaked before the advent of social media. Brady is still playing catch-up to Vic's Olympic accomplishments. Meaning no disrespect to Brady, but Vic was just that good for that long. 

Since Vic has shot his Mathews TR-7 for so many years, with so much success, it's taking him a while to locate it's replacement. This is why you see multiple bows during competition by him. Any bow is just a bow until you've tested it in competition.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Or...

Hoyt's "Grand Prix" line (can we just call it what it is? ILF?) isnt selling as well and they need Brady the bread winner to help market it. 

Thats one thought. 

If Brady's main bow truly broke, I would think he would have had an identical back up.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chang said:


> Mechanically, We are talking about rigid joint between 2 mechanical parts here. what kind of control would an archer apply to the joint?
> 
> Technically, I would like to know if a long/wider joint really offer better torque resistance, balance and stability.


I think Hoyt claims it isn't rigid. In fact, if you measure the space between an ILF limb bushing and tiller bolt during the draw, you will find it does flex. Now more so, hence the claim for more efficiency due to more "working" part of the limb. The archer does not apply control "to the joint" if I understand your question. You have to think of the limb area between the wider "base" and the limb tip. Will the limb flail around (over-exaggeration for the point) more if it's "hands" are close together or wider apart? It's really a simple idea, don't over-analyze it. 

I think the real challenge for Hoyt is whether improvements to ILF designs will marginalize any advantage, perceived or realized, achieved by Formula systems.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

Seattlepop said:


> I think Hoyt claims it isn't rigid. In fact, if you measure the space between an ILF limb bushing and tiller bolt during the draw, you will find it does flex. Now more so, hence the claim for more efficiency due to more "working" part of the limb. The archer does not apply control "to the joint" if I understand your question. You have to think of the limb area between the wider "base" and the limb tip. Will the limb flail around (over-exaggeration for the point) more if it's "hands" are close together or wider apart? It's really a simple idea, don't over-analyze it.
> 
> I think the real challenge for Hoyt is whether improvements to ILF designs will marginalize any advantage, perceived or realized, achieved by Formula systems.


Technically, the bigger joint concept has been implemented on Black Widow for years. Alignment performance would a good indication for whether a joint is or not rigid/strong enough, but so far I do not see any real measurable different between the 2 design, in particular for recurve. 

For compound, it does make sense to make the joint wider/bigger, as it needs to sustain the much stronger shock force at the end of the power-stroke produce by compound bows. and the design is widely adapted after the bowtech general.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

fango0000 said:


> Not meaning to derail the thread but on the topic of equipment changes, I saw Vic Wunderle shooting his PSE bow on day 1 and then a Win&win AXT with wiawis on day 2. I was really curious what caused him to switch in the middle of the tournament? To me it seems like a big changeup in the middle of a tourney. (I follow Vic as the Brady before Brady)
> Day1
> View attachment 6209151
> 
> ...


I shot against Vic during elimination day and asked him what made him change the bows. During the two minute practice ends he shot both the PSE and the AXT. He felt that the AXT was shooting better than the PSE at the time. I also asked him if he thought the Mathews riser was better and he felt that all of them were within a point of eachother.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

rjbishop said:


> Or...
> 
> Hoyt's "Grand Prix" line (can we just call it what it is? ILF?) isnt selling as well and they need Brady the bread winner to help market it.
> 
> ...


This is a possibility, although I suspect their ILF line dramatically outsells their Formula line.

A photo like this drives speculation because he is a top shooter representing Hoyt at a sanctioned public tournament. This is not a clandestine paparazzi photo of him practicing in his back yard or non-descript archery range off-duty. We are all curious to learn the fate of Formula.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Mengtian said:


> I never said he wasn't  I was just curious. From a coaching point of view you can understand why it might seem odd to someone. I have coached at the college level in hockey and took a team to the Nationals.
> 
> No offense was intended...just seemed strange from a hockey player/coach POV


You're giving up too easy. I'd still ask why he tests with a different setup. I mean, you and I wouldn't test with anything different than what we'd use. Perhaps an interesting answer there hidden away, assuming the reportage is all true. Your "why" is a fair question, was re "that's what's in the bag" and still is re "tests with this."

Or maybe he packed his first line gear for Berlin, where after him competing last weekend practice already started. So he pulls out second tier stuff and tries it for Nationals. Just spitballing but the "why" on this is probably as interesting as the "what," when you're dealing with someone shooting that level.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

Azzurri said:


> You're giving up too easy. I'd still ask why he tests with a different setup. I mean, you and I wouldn't test with anything different than what we'd use. Perhaps an interesting answer there hidden away, assuming the reportage is all true. Your "why" is a fair question, was re "that's what's in the bag" and still is re "tests with this."
> 
> Or maybe he packed his first line gear for Berlin, where after him competing last weekend practice already started. So he pulls out second tier stuff and tries it for Nationals. Just spitballing but the "why" on this is probably as interesting as the "what," when you're dealing with someone shooting that level.


In Antalya Brady only had one bow inspected, his main faktor. I know because I was there...

as far as the testing assertion, Brady likes to play with equipment. He is Hoyt's premier shooter, it makes sense that he would have an Epik in his bag. Why he didn't have a second formula bow, who knows... Frankly, Brady is one of the most honest guys you will ever meet and if that's his story I believe him no questions asked.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

Azzurri said:


> You're giving up too easy. I'd still ask why he tests with a different setup. I mean, you and I wouldn't test with anything different than what we'd use. Perhaps an interesting answer there hidden away, assuming the reportage is all true. Your "why" is a fair question, was re "that's what's in the bag" and still is re "tests with this."
> 
> Or maybe he packed his first line gear for Berlin, where after him competing last weekend practice already started. So he pulls out second tier stuff and tries it for Nationals. Just spitballing but the "why" on this is probably as interesting as the "what," when you're dealing with someone shooting that level.


I am not giving up on anything. Though I am not a premier shooter, my coach is. He shoots with Brady. I trust the word of Jennpsu since she is talking to the man. I trust the experts on this forum. If that is what he wants to shoot, that is cool and I beleive it.

I did not "question" that he did. I, as an experienced hockey coach, was "curious" to why he did not shoot a same set up


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

jennpsu said:


> In Antalya Brady only had one bow inspected, his main faktor. I know because I was there...
> 
> as far as the testing assertion, Brady likes to play with equipment. He is Hoyt's premier shooter, it makes sense that he would have an Epik in his bag. Why he didn't have a second formula bow, who knows... Frankly, Brady is one of the most honest guys you will ever meet and if that's his story I believe him no questions asked.


++++1111


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## wesel (Sep 6, 2013)

Could this be a 27" version?


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

jennpsu said:


> In Antalya Brady only had one bow inspected, his main faktor. I know because I was there...
> 
> as far as the testing assertion, Brady likes to play with equipment. He is Hoyt's premier shooter, it makes sense that he would have an Epik in his bag. Why he didn't have a second formula bow, who knows... Frankly, Brady is one of the most honest guys you will ever meet and if that's his story I believe him no questions asked.


"It makes sense" but then "who knows." "Had one bow/I was there" but then "has two packed now." Plenty of room in there for interesting discussion. Sorry.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> ....
> Since Vic has shot his Mathews TR-7 for so many years, with so much success, it's taking him a while to locate it's replacement. This is why you see multiple bows during competition by him. Any bow is just a bow until you've tested it in competition.


This for sure.....many of my students LOVE a bow when they're loose and shooting on familiar turf for practice or maybe lunch. Get on a field for a decent level competition and they can't figure out what's wrong with their bow (or them). Everything - archer, bow, etc - reacts differently under tournament conditions....only way to find out how different (or different good/different bad) is use them in competition.


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## Area_51 (Aug 5, 2017)

Arsi said:


> Does anyone honestly think that it matters what bow Brady shoots? I bet you could have handed him an oldschool Yamaha or GM and he still probably would have been able to slam the score that he did in the conditions we were shooting in.


There's been some interesting discussion on this topic, however I think Arsi's point is still the strongest.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Just an abstract question of interest with some applicability. I bring a setup and run it through tech spec. During a quali round I have equipment failure. What are the limits to what I can bring back out after equipment failure, and does the reconstituted thing have to have cleared tech spec? Do the spare parts/accessories? Can I only fix that part? Does that part have to have cleared, or clear in the future, tech spec?

H2H I would assume is different because I guess the clock keeps ticking even if your widget broke. So you have to pick up something and try to shoot it, or you blow up on time. In that case is the second bow cleared through tech spec too? Or do you declare failure and voila the fix just happens to be built?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Area_51 said:


> There's been some interesting discussion on this topic, however I think Arsi's point is still the strongest.


Agreed. However nearly 2K views in 48 hrs. tells me it matters to someone.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Azzurri said:


> Just an abstract question of interest with some applicability. I bring a setup and run it through tech spec. During a quali round I have equipment failure. What are the limits to what I can bring back out after equipment failure, and does the reconstituted thing have to have cleared tech spec? Do the spare parts/accessories? Can I only fix that part? Does that part have to have cleared, or clear in the future, tech spec?
> 
> H2H I would assume is different because I guess the clock keeps ticking even if your widget broke. So you have to pick up something and try to shoot it, or you blow up on time. In that case is the second bow cleared through tech spec too? Or do you declare failure and voila the fix just happens to be built?


The bow you bring back has to clear equipment inspection. This is part of the value of having your backup bow pre-inspected, a regular chore for nearly every serious competitor I know. Having said that, there will be a judge involved if you are granted time for an equipment failure and they can inspect the new rig on the spot.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

Azzurri said:


> "It makes sense" but then "who knows." "Had one bow/I was there" but then "has two packed now." Plenty of room in there for interesting discussion. Sorry.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

To me even if it is true as said by a couple people that they were there and this is what he brought and it is what it is, the interesting questions "why" and "should he" still sit out there unless he answered those too, in which case, spill some more. I was trying to prod the one guy that he was onto something interesting and he seemed to have gone the other way that the narrow factual version without explanation was satisfactory. I want to know "why."

I'd have to go watch world cups back and I don't feel that much need but if he compared to some people shows up with only one bow, that's interesting. I'm preferring that potential tidbit to the door being slammed shut with a quick "I know him" answer that doesn't actually tell me his thought process, which is what this kind of opens a door into and interests me.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

fader said:


> View attachment 6209579


It's really not complicated. If he brought two bows this time then he doesn't always just bring one. If he tests with this ILF was it an ILF toe-dip or does he interestingly test formula stuff on an ILF all the time, some of the time, or what. To me if you're paying attention to the details it should prompt even more questions as opposed to let's see how fast we can slam the door. It's not conspiracy crap.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

The meme was directed at everyone who continued to beat the dead horse after someone who was at the tournament and talked to Brady was gracious enough to come on here and share her knowledge of the situation. I'd like to have more people on this board like that... Not less.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Brady could wear a different hat one day and this forum would blow up, I swear.


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## Area_51 (Aug 5, 2017)

rjbishop said:


> Brady could wear a different hat one day and this forum would blow up, I swear.


:set1_rolf2:


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Today in Berlin he was still shooting the Epik


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> Today in Berlin he was still shooting the Epik


given the lack of time between nationals and Berlin... I'm not surprised he's still shooting the Epik. That's exactly what I would do too.
He probably has several bows setup and ready to shoot and that happens to be the one he grabbed... who knows maybe the archery gods told him to shoot that one.
Maybe it's all a big conspiracy by Hoyt to get people talking about what Brady shoots so they can move inventory. 

I'm not a Brady expert... Toja and Mel are the ones to talk to in that department. I happened to be lucky enough to have gone on a couple of International trips with him and brazen enough to strike up a conversation at USAT. Anyone could have gotten the same info I had if they just asked. 

It really doesn't matter. The man could pick up a wooden samick and out shoot any of us any day of the week.

I was merely giving information gathered first hand.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

For archers at his level, nothing ever just "happens." Believe me.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> For archers at his level, nothing ever just "happens." Believe me.


I am sure there are specific reasons for the choice of that specific setup... we shall never know. Unless, you ask him yourself.... dun, dun, daaaaaaaa


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## TheElBow (May 18, 2015)

Brady and his Epik (?) in Berlin?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Nobody has said it but I think the question is...is formula on the way out? Hoyt discontinued both formula traditional bows...the buffalo and the Tiburon for updated ilf risers...the satori.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It wouldn't surprise me. The Axis had a superior limb attachment system IMO and it didn't catch on. Good on them for trying though. Same with formula. I admire Doug for trying things. Whether they are truly superior is always up to the field of archers to prove or disprove, regardless of what the engineers or marketing people think.

If formula is on it's way out, it's smart of Brady to put an ILF rig into competition as soon as possible, so he can get some world cups and a world championships behind him with it before Japan. Not saying that's his reason, but if formula is on it's way out, then it would make perfect sense.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> For archers at his level, nothing ever just "happens." Believe me.


And that was why I thought the one poster gave up too easily. He was asking why two different types of Hoyts, why not identical like hockey sticks, and I thought the "why" was a fair question still not resolved by the more factually-oriented posts. jenn, iArch, you, and the other guy can all be right in their slice of the truth. The first two are kind of getting at a factual "what" and the second two I think are more intrigued by "why." Part of the reason I said what I did was I felt the "what" didn't quite settle the issue enough since, for example, if you're usually formula why aren't you testing stuff on formula, if something broke why isn't your backup the same formula setup, etc. It comes across like he did do something different for some reason not resolved by the "what" discussion. Yes, narrowly, perhaps he had some sort of break or failure on the one he intended to use. But then for someone of his level about to go to Berlin why isn't the second bow out of the bag effectively identical.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Speculation is awesome! What's his backup in Berlin? If it's another ILF, that may be the answer. If it's his previously primary Formula, I wouldn't drawn any conclusions from it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Awesome. Archery now has its own Alex Jones.


LOL 

14 years and still never misses an opportunity. That's stamina. 

Let's see how long you last this time.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I had to go look up Alex Jones. Had no idea who that was. LOL


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> 14 years and still never misses an opportunity.


And those of us who have been following his and your posts ever since Athens know why. Good job staying on the high road.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> ... regardless of what the engineers or marketing people think.


Far too often marketing people and the engineers are on the opposite sides of the spectrum.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

stick monkey said:


> Nobody has said it but I think the question is...is formula on the way out? Hoyt discontinued both formula traditional bows...the buffalo and the Tiburon for updated ilf risers...the satori.


If Hoyt was eliminating the formula line then I would think that Doug would be shooting ILF as well.... he's not. He's shooting a faktor and bamboo xtours.
I would think the same would be true of Mackenzie Brown but, she is still shooting her formula setup. She would also be considering what she would be shooting coming up to the Tokyo games.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The unanswered question here is why choose an ILF rig as a backup when formulas are available. I doubt anyone on this forum knows the real answer, but it did stand out as odd.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

For Brady, considering his position with Hoyt, its probably like selecting what flavor ice cream to get. No real reason, just trying out all the possibilities.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm coming back here in 3 years.


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## TheElBow (May 18, 2015)

Brady was just eliminated in the quarterfinal of Berlin.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> For Brady, considering his position with Hoyt, its probably like selecting what flavor ice cream to get. No real reason, just trying out all the possibilities.


Could very well be the case. Guess like TMD, we can all come back in 3 years and see.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Far too often marketing people and the engineers are on the opposite sides of the spectrum.


There is an interesting interplay between the two. The engineers won't release a product until it is perfect, which will be sometime in the year 2030. The sales and marketing organization wants to push new stuff out the door and engage customers. The trick is finding a good balance. It is healthier that way, IMHO - you want meaningful product releases that are not BS.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Nobody is concerned with what Doug Denton is shooting...as far as that goes maybe he's not ready to give up on his baby...the bottom line here is that Hoyt split the market with a proprietary limb mount and maybe they see that as a mistake...sales will dominate their product line.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> The unanswered question here is why choose an ILF rig as a backup when formulas are available. I doubt anyone on this forum knows the real answer, but it did stand out as odd.


He mentioned that he was working on a theory regarding ILF vs Formula... I asked him about the theory and he said that he didn't have enough data to discuss it yet...

speculation is fun but also not very productive.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tough to compare one platform to another with a sample size of one unit. The objective testing has already been performed if anyone wants to dig up the data from countless events since the formula platform was introduced, and crunch the numbers. I'd lay money on the difference between the two platforms being statistically insignificant.

What matters more to the individual is the confidence they have in that ONE bow. We've all had bows we loved and ones we didn't, and sometimes they were identical rigs. My Red Axis always outshot my blue one and I could never figure out why. My Black TR-7 always outshot my silver one and I still don't know why. It just is, and over enough competitions you get a feel for what rig you want in your hands when it matters. 

The ability to swap grips from one platform to another would tempt me to eventually compare them both.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

jennpsu said:


> He mentioned that he was working on a theory regarding ILF vs Formula... I asked him about the theory and he said that he didn't have enough data to discuss it yet...
> 
> speculation is fun but also not very productive.


We declare this thread mic-dropped four days ago and I believe what we learn is "not plan A" and "accident." More to the point, we never get the last nugget, "theory on ILF vs formula," which explains the contradictory bows being in the bag and answers the OP directly on his threadstarter. 

Viva speculation.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> .... My Black TR-7 always outshot my silver one and I still don't know why.


Photon Absorption Imbalance Phenomena.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Photon Absorption Imbalance Phenomena.


LOL. Whatever the reason, I stopped caring after a while and just shot it.


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## jennpsu (Mar 20, 2014)

Azzurri said:


> We declare this thread mic-dropped four days ago and I believe what we learn is "not plan A" and "accident." More to the point, we never get the last nugget, "theory on ILF vs formula," which explains the contradictory bows being in the bag and answers the OP directly on his threadstarter.
> 
> Viva speculation.


on one last note. given the performance in Berlin this week... I wonder what we will be seeing in SoCal and more importantly Rome?

Mic Drop and I'm out!


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

---Quote (Originally by limbwalker)---
... My Black TR-7 always outshot my silver one and I still don't know why.
---End Quote---



Mr. Roboto said:


> Photon Absorption Imbalance Phenomena.


Sorry, that post belongs in the Archery Mythbusters thread. ;-)


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

jennpsu said:


> on one last note. given the performance in Berlin this week... I wonder what we will be seeing in SoCal and more importantly Rome?
> 
> Mic Drop and I'm out!


Interesting... perhaps the ILF experiment was unsuccessful. Doh!

Of course, we all know that equipment changes take time to evaluate and there can be hot/cold performance days. And there is always the wildcard competitor who has a surprise hot day and knocks expected winners off the podium. That is the fun of sport, though.

I like the idea of digging through the data but suspect Limbwalker is correct. It may be that marketers and manufacturers don't really want to definitively know the answer, like the arrow straightness -vs- accuracy topic. Customers probably also have a desire for a magic bullet and something to experiment and speculate with. There is undoubtedly a very significant psychological aspect to archery performance, as with many sports.

It could also be one of those Beta -vs- VHS things. The superior product does not always win in the marketplace for reasons besides performance.

Market research is also littered with many fascinating examples of giving customers exactly what they asked for, only to see the resulting product fail in the marketplace. Sometimes people think something would be cool, but it is not as cool as they thought once they see it. Consumer desires are not always clear and it can be notoriously difficult to determine them accurately.

I will be at USAT #3 and look forward to discovering what everyone thinks.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

At least one barrier to market research I can think of is if the companies did it they would want the top archers for test pilots and real market research would mean you test yours and theirs, and would a company risk having their test pilot figure out he'd pick up 5 points shooting W&W when they meant to prove Hoyt was best. Similar on formula vs ILF. Maybe companies might be well meaning and follow the data or maybe you just killed the cash cow.

This is why most people for college, consumer products, etc. turn to something like US News or Consumer Reports. At least in theory neutral/no dog in the fight. But they also sell magazines to fund the testing/ranking. So who is going to pay some entity/publication/blogger so they can afford to buy the equipment to test? Unless Hoyt just hands them stuff to test gratis, which while nice is unlikely in a niche industry where an honest bad review might hurt sales.


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