# Ther's no such thing as tiller tuning



## 05_sprcrw (Aug 18, 2009)

hmmm, I didn't know that thanks for sharing and now that it was explained in simpler terms it is kinda one of those :doh: moments.


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

Gotta disagree with that one , not the concept that was actually discussed , but the fact that tiller tuning actually has nothing to do with tuning in the 1st place , what it is accomplishing is how the bow sits in your hand at draw , steadies up your sight picture , either putting more presure on the bottom or the top limb so that the bow doesnt want to rock back or forward on you while you are executing your shot , stabilizing the bow for less movement during your shot , thats how it has always been explained to me and how I have used it ( the very few times I found it necesary )


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

The concept might be right, but I have been tiller tuning my bows from the time Frank Pearson came out with his Secerts of The Pros. Follow his instructions and you can see your groups change from one setting to another. It will make your sight hold so much better.
Charlie


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Yup, Ceebee and iawbhtr echo my take on it too. It simply makes the bow pull into your hand the way that is the easiest for you to be consistent in your hand pressure against the bow.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

ia bhtr said:


> Gotta disagree with that one , not the concept that was actually discussed , but the fact that tiller tuning actually has nothing to do with tuning in the 1st place , what it is accomplishing is how the bow sits in your hand at draw , steadies up your sight picture , either putting more presure on the bottom or the top limb so that the bow doesnt want to rock back or forward on you while you are executing your shot , stabilizing the bow for less movement during your shot , thats how it has always been explained to me and how I have used it ( the very few times I found it necesary )


Couldn't agree more. I've seen first hand the positive effect of a correctly tiller tuned bow. I'll be setting up more bows very soon and I will be tiller tune them.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

ia bhtr said:


> Gotta disagree with that one , not the concept that was actually discussed , but the fact that tiller tuning actually has nothing to do with tuning in the 1st place , what it is accomplishing is how the bow sits in your hand at draw , steadies up your sight picture , either putting more presure on the bottom or the top limb so that the bow doesnt want to rock back or forward on you while you are executing your shot , stabilizing the bow for less movement during your shot , thats how it has always been explained to me and how I have used it ( the very few times I found it necesary )





ceebee said:


> The concept might be right, but I have been tiller tuning my bows from the time Frank Pearson came out with his Secerts of The Pros. Follow his instructions and you can see your groups change from one setting to another. It will make your sight hold so much better.
> Charlie





Boyd said:


> Couldn't agree more. I've seen first hand the positive effect of a correctly tiller tuned bow. I'll be setting up more bows very soon and I will be tiller tune them.


this ^

I'm a firm believer in it


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## Chop1 (Apr 30, 2007)

ia bhtr said:


> Gotta disagree with that one , not the concept that was actually discussed , but the fact that tiller tuning actually has nothing to do with tuning in the 1st place , what it is accomplishing is how the bow sits in your hand at draw , steadies up your sight picture , either putting more presure on the bottom or the top limb so that the bow doesnt want to rock back or forward on you while you are executing your shot , stabilizing the bow for less movement during your shot , thats how it has always been explained to me and how I have used it ( the very few times I found it necesary )


Yep, he left this out of the discussion. I have had bows that seemed to dip down a tad while aiming and was able to clean up my sight picture alot by adding a half twist to one limb. It will move you nocking point so you have to re set that after you have it the way you want it. He is correct that it doesn't seem to effect the bows performance, but it does affect yours in how you hold the bow. Well, I guess if you went overboard with it you would affect performance.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Yep, same here. Used to set everything up and an even tiller. Went back to fifty yards and started tightening the bottom limb an eigth of a turn until the scope quit bobbling up and down. No matter how irrelevant, never argue with success.


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

Just for the sake of argument, and I do like a good argument. We ain't had one on here in some time.
I submit that you are not tuning the bow but adjusting the draw weight to where you are comfortable with the hold. 
Now, if you take weight from the top and add to the bottom or vice versa, this is not true. What you are doing at that point is physically moving the position of the the limb tips and wheels to accommodate the different shapes of our hands on the riser. So with this said I would call this "grip tuning".
How's that for splittin' hairs?:teeth:


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## marcusjb (Jun 22, 2005)

So would all agree that this is not tuning for arrow flight, but rather how the bow holds and fires? Just trying to understand the idea here.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

marcusjb said:


> So would all agree that this is not tuning for arrow flight, *but rather how the bow holds and fires*? Just trying to understand the idea here.


yes


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Question......How does all of this affect, if at all, a bow with Cams??..Seems that changing the limb tiller would then require re-timing the cams, which would then negate the tiller adjustments that were made in the first place.....Right??....or what??....Please enlighten me.....Jim


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Jim I have a Merlin with cams that shoots great. However the pin tends to drop low on the spot and is hard to get back up. I did the tiller tune and now it holds solid in the center. I am heading out the door right now to tiller my new Maitland. Hope it works as well as the others.
Charlie


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

As long as the cables are not lengthened or shortened the timing is unaffected. When you change the limb tiller all you are doing is re-positioning the limb tip either further or closer to the riser. You are changing the brace height by changing the tiller. You are changing the nock-set location when you change the tiller.


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Time the cams so they impart equal force to the arrow and the rest is the same. All this is simple once you understand that the force on the arrow is just that. How that force is applied is up to you. There is an ideal set-up where the force on the arrow causes level nock travel. Where the bow presses against the hand in a manner that allows the hand to relax and not influence the arrow(tiller). Where the draw length is set just so, so that by pulling hard into the back or "stops" you come inline with the arrow. Once all this is set up and you have already dealt with limb twist and alignment, then that bow will shoot right down the pipe if you aim it there. THAT is bow tuning!


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

That argument of cable lenghts to wheel timing falls flat on its face when it comes to single cam bows. The wheel timing is fixed on the single cam.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

I shoot a Constitution with dual draw stops and have had goos success with "Tiller Tuning" with the stops, those with binary cams may want to give it a try...


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

Cannot agree with his opinion on tiller.


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## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

All I can say is when I followed tiller tuning as described in an article in Petersons bowhunting "BULLET PROOF BOWTUNING" I shot my bow (at the time a Jennings PWC) better than I had shot before, but that was with a one cam where the cam was oblong in shape with a signifigantly smaller idler wheel, now with my iceman the cam is more round and the idler is larger in size
(at least very close to the size of the cam) and it is very easy to set for even tiller, with this bow I find no signifigant difference by tiller tuning so I go with equal tiller and start tuning.


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## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

Some of you talk of holding low on your spot and then you tiller tune your Bow to help you hold better on the spot. What exactly did you you do to do this? Did you take a turn or two out of the top limb? I read somewhere where Dee Wilde used to or still does this to his bows. Post up please. Thanx :thumb:


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

YankeeRebel said:


> Some of you talk of holding low on your spot and then you tiller tune your Bow to help you hold better on the spot. What exactly did you you do to do this? Did you take a turn or two out of the top limb? I read somewhere where Dee Wilde used to or still does this to his bows. Post up please. Thanx :thumb:


Took some off the lower limb to make mine hold it's best.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Unclegus said:


> Yep, same here. Used to set everything up and an even tiller. Went back to fifty yards and started tightening the bottom limb an eigth of a turn until the scope quit bobbling up and down. No matter how irrelevant, never argue with success.


This is what I used to do.....


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

I think it make good sense that single cams and standard riser dual cam bows require some tiller tuning to help match limbs that have slightly different deflection from top to bottom. However, don't believe that parallel bows or standard bows with matching deflection limbs require much in the way of tiller. I just called Hoyt resently and ask the finger shooting engineer how I should setup my parallel bow with hybred cams. See I shoot two fingers under which does not pull directly behind the arrow at center shot. They directed me to advance the top cam ahead of the bottom cam by 1/8". This bow shoot very nice now and seem to aim even better. dd


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

DDSHOOTER said:


> I think it make good sense that single cams and standard riser dual cam bows require some tiller tuning to help match limbs that have slightly different deflection from top to bottom. However, don't believe that parallel bows or standard bows with matching deflection limbs require much in the way of tiller. I just called Hoyt resently and ask the finger shooting engineer how I should setup my parallel bow with hybred cams. See I shoot two fingers under which does not pull directly behind the arrow at center shot. They directed me to advance the top cam ahead of the bottom cam by 1/8". This bow shoot very nice now and seem to aim even better. dd


I have the privelage of shooting with quite a few top end Hoyt shooters , this is how they set up their bows even tho they shoot release , maybe not an eighth , but they do have the top cam coming in ahead of the bottom cam


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

I don't shoot single cams. I like to adjust things to fit me. To be honest, I never felt the need to change. Not saying they don't shoot well but why change it if it aint broke?


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

ia bhtr said:


> I have the privelage of shooting with quite a few top end Hoyt shooters , this is how they set up their bows even tho they shoot release , maybe not an eighth , but they do have* the top cam coming in ahead of the bottom cam*


Again...this has nothing to do with tiller, this is cam timing.


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

DDSHOOTER said:


> I think it make good sense that single cams and standard riser dual cam bows require some tiller tuning to help* match limbs that have slightly different deflection from top to bottom*. However, don't believe that parallel bows or standard bows with matching deflection limbs require much in the way of tiller. I just called Hoyt resently and ask the finger shooting engineer how I should setup my parallel bow with hybred cams. See I shoot two fingers under which does not pull directly behind the arrow at center shot. They directed me to advance the top cam ahead of the bottom cam by 1/8". This bow shoot very nice now and seem to aim even better. dd


Think about it. What difference does the limb deflection really make or if they are even the same? So what if it bends with slightly more or less effort than the other limb? All that is changed is the draw weight. The deflection is like arrow spine, a certain amount of bend with a specific weight at a specific distance.
There could be two radically different deflection difference limbs on the same riser and it would still shoot well. The only thing affected is the draw weight.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

What about Nock Travel??.....Cam timing, and it seems Tiller setting, would also affect Nock travel, then, wouldnt it??...making the bow hold well by Tiller tuning , I understand, as well as timing the cams, (I also time Hybrid cams with the top cam hitting a bit ahead of the bottom cam)...But doesnt one thing affect the other??....Which to do first, then, cam timing, or Tiller tuning??...Because after setting one, then adjusting the other, either way, will affect the first setting..Does this make sense??...L.O.L....Great thread, by the way......Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

No, the weaker limb moves more which changes its speed for which it travels. Throwing the bow out of balance as it's drawn/fired. It rocks. Some people say the bow points down or up as you aim it. This is why adjusting a limb bolt brings both back in balance. dd


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

DDSHOOTER said:


> No, the *weaker limb moves more *which changes its speed for which it travels. Throwing the bow out of balance as it's drawn/fired. It rocks. Some people say the bow points down or up as you aim it. This is why adjusting a limb bolt brings both back in balance. dd


Why would you think the weaker limb moves more? That limb is only going to move as far as the wheel or cam would move any other limb. Simple geometry of the string wrap.


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

Harperman said:


> *What about Nock Travel*??.....Cam timing, and it seems Tiller setting, would also affect Nock travel, then, wouldnt it??...making the bow hold well by Tiller tuning , I understand, as well as timing the cams, (I also time Hybrid cams with the top cam hitting a bit ahead of the bottom cam)...But doesnt one thing affect the other??....Which to do first, then, cam timing, or Tiller tuning??...Because after setting one, then adjusting the other, either way, will affect the first setting..Does this make sense??...L.O.L....Great thread, by the way......Jim


What about nock travel? Adjusting tiller does move the nocking point. But, the nocking point can be adjusted without tiller adjustment. Probably the most accurate way to adjust your nock placement is with limb adjustment. I have in my possesion an article, given me by the same referenced design engineer that generated the thought for this thread, that depicts exactly this. On the bow in the article, which he says is a short ATA with a 6 7/8th inch brace height, 1/4 turn of the lower limb lowered the nocking point by .022" for a total at 1 turn of .088". Now that is some fine adjusting! I doubt most of us could even measure that with a bow square. All you are doing with nock travel is trying to clean up arrow flight. So, adjust it to where it flies clean and don't worry 'bout it no more!
Wheel or cam timing on a two wheel or cam bow is still strictly and ONLY changed by the cable length. Why would cam timing effect nock travel? The string is going to take exactly the same path on that wheel or cam everytime. The nock point is going to take the exact same path as where you put it ...everytime!


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

As already stated. Parallel, short AtoA, Cam with short throw and very high deflection, bow design will have very little affect if any with tiller tuning. However, since most on here shoot long AtoA bows and cam design that causes the limb tips to move a greater distance. Therefore having a bigger affect. If take a long AtoA bow and turn the bottom limb bolt 1/4" you will see about a 1/8" change in nock set point. Its not simple geomtry. A long 12-18" limb, with low deflection, will bend more if the opposing limb is slightly stiffer. Yes, you can say that the string wrap pull them even, But if the a limb tip moves more than the other then you will unknownly offset the cams timing when you time it. This doesn't cause the nock set point to change, but does cause the bow to rock as is drawn. Because one cam is working more than the other. dd


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

DDSHOOTER said:


> As already stated. Parallel, short AtoA, Cam with short throw and very high deflection, bow design will have very little affect if any with tiller tuning. However, since most on here shoot long AtoA bows and cam design that causes the limb tips to move a greater distance. Therefore having a bigger affect. If take a long AtoA bow and turn the bottom limb bolt 1/4" you will see about a 1/8" change in nock set point. Its not simple geomtry. A long 12-18" limb, with low deflection, will bend more if the opposing limb is slightly stiffer. Yes, you can say that the string wrap pull them even, But if the a limb tip moves more than the other then you will unknownly offset the cams timing when you time it. This doesn't cause the nock set point to change, but does cause the bow to rock as is drawn. Because one cam is working more than the other. dd


We'll have to agree to disagree on this 'til I can get back to you with more detail. I'll go home tonight and measure this on a long ATA bow...mine!


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Please keep in mine that I was trying to remember this morning how much it changed. That's why I said about. But it was a measureable amount. Now to be fair, I have to note that most limbs on today's bows are very well matched. As other on here have stated they Tiller tune their bows. So I suspect, this is to mismatch the top limb from the bottom in order to give them a better feel at the grip (high, med and low grip pressure). Others just learn the best way a bow needs to be gripped.

I currently shoot a non-parallel bow with parallel cams with higher deflection limbs and therefore, have it set even tiller (bottom out in the limb pockets). It does seem to be a bit sensitivity to heal pressure. I have tried to tiller tune my parallel bow but it didn't seem to make much difference other poundage and draw length, as you have already mention. dd


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## Darksider (Apr 14, 2006)

jerrytee said:


> That argument of cable lengths to wheel timing falls flat on its face when it comes to single cam bows. The wheel timing is fixed on the single cam.


True, With the Cam & idler wheel(nothing more than a pulley wheel) not equal tiller tuning will not much if anything. 
Just back out both limb equally to desired draw weight.

With a dual cam, yes, tiller tuning helps.


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## jrip (May 19, 2008)

Tiller tuning is more about fine tuning nock height and how the bow holds, and not about adjusting cam timing.


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