# Dot Falls Low Aiming and during execution.



## ArcherXXX300

Alistar Whittingham
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyBKOApNqos&feature=youtube_gdata_player

EXCELLENT EXCELLENT VIDEO. 

NOW I have to ask if the draw length is correct...is it possible for the dot to fall low based on my reasoning here and what I experienced today? I forgot about that video and I have my own issue of the dot falling low. NOW I believe that today I figured something out (more testing is required to see if it is correct) and you could argue it as being a draw length problem however I see it as more of an ALIGNMENT problem. Everyone has said this is a draw length problem, a mass bow weight problem, leaning or holding weight and fatigue. 

My pin would sit in the center of the target for about a second or less and begin to fall as I started my firing engine, today in my attempts to figure this out and my hold out at 10yds I decided to change how I draw the bow. I have experimented with ALL kinds of draw lengths etc. (I've really tried everything I can think of) Now...the DL looks and feels pretty good, however with the position of my bow arm it was difficult for it to be "locked in" with the pressure of pulling with the release side. I also believe I had a slight twist in the torso towards the target that required me to turn my head less. So If I'm correct I was not completely straight in the torso and hips, would raise the bow and draw and it would be more towards my chest side than straight out from my ribs and shoulder socket at an angle. So....anyway shooting 10yds today I decided okay, "Set my stance, set my hips and shoulders etc all as perfectly square as possible. Raise the bow (BUT RAISE THE BOW TO SHOULDER HEIGHT AND MORE TOWARDS MY BACK FORMING A 90* ANGLE AT MY RIBS) and do this with very minimal twist in any part of the body as I draw directly to my face and anchor. I also noticed in doing this that I had to turn my head even more than normal to acquire the target. The result I got from this was astonishing to me (I may have been chasing my butt for months) but with the bow arm completely straight but not locked, in a relaxed state with constant pulling pressure from the release side the bow sat there and felt very "locked in." It did feel slightly cramped as well. The shot itself changed in intensity and went from a strong shot to an EXTREMELY STRONG SHOT. My releases are set very cold and have now been reduced almost to ice yet still go off with ease. This is just what I experienced today and may not mean squat but I believe I am onto something. I used to have a sharp angle of bow arm pointing more towards my chest side and had to hold up that heavy target bow with my bow shoulder muscles really and I'm almost certain that would make it sink easily? Does this sound like I'm onto something or am I just losing my mind here? Does any of this make sense?

I say try both ways of the shot, one with your bow arm more towards the front side of your chest creating a different "Steeper triangle" shape as viewed from above (easily a larger gap between your bowarm and string/chest) and then try it with the bow arm more inline with the ribs in a very straight line and reduce the height of the "archers triangle" as viewed from above and give me your opinions. I think of my new form as being much more inline through the shoulders and bowarm and much more like a recurve form on the front end. I may be going crazy but I'm going crazy trying to figure this out so I can shoot better.


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## ArcherXXX300

Ttt


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## subconsciously

Proper aligment of the bow hand wrist, bow shoulder-draw shoulder should be in a near straight line. This is the "gun barrel". Properly aligned you will have an angular draw not a linear draw. the angular draw incorporates more of the back and less of the shoulder. Tension should be in the bow arm tricep and lat. The draw hand will usually remain slightly lower, but if you watch many of the pro's like Chance B. he will draw high and set his shoulders down. This will help release any un-needed tension in the shoulders. If you raise the bow in an internal scooping motion, this will keep the front shoulder down - different strokes for different folk.

If you change your stance or alignement, this will possibly require slight changes in your draw setting. As the back is engaged during the draw cylce, this should be ever increasing. Most times if this motion is stopped during sight alignment or aiming, it is hard to get it going again and can lead to collapsing in the shot. Once the motion is started it sould never stop. A really good shot is made with expansion.

I personally shoot with a closed stance to tighten the gun barrel as much as possilbe. This also helps me keep my back flat. One should be able to lay an arrow across the back and it should point towards the target.

.02


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## ArcherXXX300

I shot a 59X with 45 inside out at 10yds today with a very relaxed bow arm and shoulder. I shot with a bent bow arm which I almost never use but the hold seemed easier, granted its only 10yds. I hear that 90% of misses occur in the bow arm or bow hand, I'm just not sure what is giving me the best and most easily repeatable hold at this time. I know you can repeat relaxation easiest, just doesn't seem right to have a bent bow arm to me. I mean in core archery it says bone on bone contact and maximize skeleton and minimize muscle. Well how are you having bone on bone contact with a bent bow arm?


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## subconsciously

My wife won two national indoor championships with a bent arm. It is not always the most repeatable for a lot of shooters. It's what is repeatable for you. 

I feel most misses are made in the back half personally. 

.02


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## aread

From what I read above, when you closed up your stance a little, you shot better. This is often a sign that your bow's draw length was set a little long. 

Field14 has a good technique to balance this in his book, ProActive Archery. He also described it in an article in Archery Focus magazine.

You draw, aim, then close your eyes to execute the shot. If you are hitting left, close your stance a bit, if you are hitting right, open your stance a little. OR you can change the DL a little. Hitting left, shorten, hitting right, lengthen. 

The strategy is to find the foot position that gives you the best balance and stability of which you are capable. Then use this to adjust your DL.

Another technique is to draw and hold until your shot begins to break down. If the first breakdown is your bow shoulder coming up, then your DL is too long. If it's something else that begins to break down first, your bow is probably set very close to optimum.

Nuts&bolts describes a good test of DL in his posts. It involves shooting fletched and bare shafts at close range. I have tried this a little, but haven't reached any conclusions.

Field14's technique seems to work better for me, but you have to already have your DL set reasonably close to optimum before this works well.

For all of these methods, good form to start with is essential.

Bent or straight arm seems to depend on the archer. I watch a member of my club come back from a 4 year layoff, pick up a bow that was at least 2" too short for him and consistently shoot 60 X's & very high field scores. However, a couple of years later when he had a bow that fit, he won NFAA Shooter of the Year. So this wasn't a typical archer trying to develop his form. 

For all recurve archers, a straight arm is the best choice. For most compound archers, straight arm is the best choice, but there are exceptions. About 15 years ago & before, a bent arm was recommended by many top archers and coaches. However, more recently, even the pro archers who learned to shoot with a bent arm, have significantly straightened their arms. One that I noticed is Jesse Broadwater. 10 years ago, his bow arm was much more bent than it is today. And he still shoots better than 99.999% of archers.

I seem to find ways to miss in both the front and back half of my shot. However, two of the better coaches seem to think that the bow arm is the culprit in most misses. Terry Wunderle & Al Henderson wrote about this in their respective books. Of course the best strategy is to get both halves of our shot running right. 

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## mike 66

:cool2: not everyone is built the same,i have seen a few ways on this site to tell if your lined up.. nuts and bolts has this nice set of lines he puts up which is cool.im no putter wizz i like to look with my eyes to tell whats going on . sometimes i use a string and take pics to show the shooter .. this seems to help the most ..sub is spot on with the barrel. and great info from aread also..the trick is to find out what works for you! you can see a lot of pros with horrible form. they will even tell you its bad but it works for them and they can do it every time. shot after shot.i will say look close at the line up... and look closer at the peep...i teach straight arm.....mike


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## ArcherXXX300

I never really closed my stance. My coach and other excellent archers / friends and pros have looked at my form and draw length and said it is great. But I'm apparently at the point of what works best for me. I will say I'm sure I haven't yet found my IDEAL draw length for hold etc. but it is very close.


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## mike 66

:cool2: the stance can do wonders...coach bernie. had a drill for stance i cant remember how it all went .. ill try to look it up for you if you like.. it might help..how is your time while holding is it over 15 seconds? is it always close in the time frame?? it could be a simple thing it sure dont sound like D.L IM THINKING MORE PEEP....ISSUE... OR OVER HOLDING ...OR PULLING TO HARD.i see a lot of good shooters like yourself who fall in the the over holding issues, but it could be any of the 4. just my honest opinion.mike


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## ArcherXXX300

Shots usually fall into a very close time frame and rhythm of 6-8 second range from the start of the draw. Maybe trying to hold for 2-3 seconds in the center. I may be trying to hold too long and the shot is breaking down. It's just in how I execute a shot with a hinge...if I make the shot go by pulling it is usually a bad shot. If I simply relax until the shot breaks on its own it hammers X's. Sometimes the sight picture just seems right and everything feels right and the dot will sit in the center or near center of the X for less than a second and the shot will be gone. Perhaps I am going mad trying to hold, I'm under the impression you should easily be able to hold the dot in the center of the X for 5-8 seconds if you want. I shot a 46X with the pin jumping up and down like a kid on a pogo stick and unknown to me at the time the poundage was WAY excessive for indoors 65lbs on a 60lb bow. I preloaded the heck out of the limbs to get the draw length to where I wanted it and forgot to check poundage that day. There is a lot about stance in core archery by Larry Wise, I'm still trying to figure out the dot falling low. Arrow groups have been tall lately top of white to bottom of white and it is a real issue for me. I have no clue where the dot is or pin when the shot breaks...so highs and lows cause me to move the sight and never knowing where it is sure hurts me. Say i'm hitting the X, well was the pin at the bottom of the white? Was it on the X? Was it at the top of the white? That is my biggest struggle now, it doesn't matter what color pin or how big a dot I shoot, its just like I blank out and stare at the center of the target as the shot is breaking.


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## mike 66

:shade: ok now were on the right track.....time sounds good.. way excessive weight pre .. loading causing tension!!! or the limbs outta tune bad making it hard to steady up thats what im thinking now... i dont rule out the peep.....this will make it fall......i see this a lot just a small movement can fix this..i would move it in very small amounts , over holding hard pull im ruling out now....im staying with my gut feeling PEEP....


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## ArcherXXX300

mike 66 said:


> :shade: ok now were on the right track.....time sounds good.. way excessive weight pre .. loading causing tension!!! or the limbs outta tune bad making it hard to steady up thats what im thinking now... i dont rule out the peep.....this will make it fall......i see this a lot just a small movement can fix this..i would move it in very small amounts , over holding hard pull im ruling out now....im staying with my gut feeling PEEP....


Well I've backed limb bolts out 6 turns is making 55-56lbs (I don't trust our scale, it feels more like 50lbs). I've played with peep height and dropped it some but set it closing my eyes at the draw and not opening my eyes til I feel very settled in. I'm getting ready to shoot my first districts this morning (kind of being forced to by friend who thinks I can do well). I'm checking poundage on the scales at the other shops. I'm also picking up a second Dominator today so I'm going to set it different and see how things go with it over the next few weeks etc. Its not like I don't have enough bows already, I just don't have any identical ones yet.


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## wpk

So you move the peep down a little right 
And thanks for the info in this thread


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## mike 66

i havent heard back from archer xxx but he kinda sounds like the kind that likes a lot of holding lbs, im thinking he in construction. or concrete worker that needs the heavy weight.......... i might be wrong....the peep will help most...he did say it was off though... waiting to hear back. if his scores dropped he may just need some more weight on the stab, or side bar


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## ArcherXXX300

Was going to post last night but didn't. Update, I've been setting up my 13 Dominator Max for indoors too. Coaches thought and still think it might be TP. I hate to think it is again, but I think that it is in the execution of my style of the shot. I never really pulled to execute my hinge, I really just relaxed and as I relaxed the release would rotate in my hand and the shot would break. Been playing with bars and my bow shoulder during shot setup. I was told in past that I had a high bow shoulder even with a draw length too long or short and I blame this on blank bailing months ago because I would draw the bow, anchor and settle in where I felt "Level" and shoot the shot with my eyes closed. Well, if I draw the bow shoulder low with zero push on the front end but straight arm and prior to the draw have my bow side scapulae slide inwards towards my spine my back loads up heavily and I believe that this muscle use here supports the deltoid muscles. You have bone on bone and muscle below the shoulder in the back supporting the deltoid muscle, I believe this has helped immensely in dropping low. I came to this conclusion by dropping bar weight immensely and then still dropping low, then I said, "well it isn't mass bow weight." Then I just happened to pull that bow shoulder scapulae in on the draw and have zero push towards the target, I felt my back load tremendously on the bow side a feeling I'd never had before, then the dot seemed to sit better without dropping so bad. I felt a tremendous amount of pressure about the center of my ribcage 90* from my armpit and about my scapulae. Well over the past several days I've thought its TP and in reality I think it is just in the way my shot is executed. Coaches suggested ditching the click in my release, well I used to have my releases super hot compared to now...well I think that through my research and practice I'd had shots go too soon. So I set my release colder, also I wanted to be able to fully relax my hand and all arm muscles on the draw side so I set the release so cold that as I relaxed my hand completely it would just hit the click, well I couldn't relax anymore to have the shot break and the dot wouldn't sit still enough to be confident so it became semi-punch hinge rotation with limited success. SO....I removed the click from the release and didn't like that one bit, but I shot it for 3 days without the click, shot close 10yds. Shot some blind bail, shots still felt the same with no target. Shot 10yds for awhile til I got used to just relaxing my hand til it was flat and pulling. Then I started playing with bars, I moved the back bar up and up and up in mounting holes on back of riser, then moved it to the front main stab hole, then I loaded the heck out of it. I went from 16oz back 4oz up front to 24oz out back and 6oz up front, side rod angle is dropped down just slightly and I went to a ring instead of a dot on my scope. The hold is at minimum 50% better than it was and I am teaching myself to pull to execute, no rotating the release, no relaxing til the shot breaks (though that to me gives me the best surprise release). Another worthy note here is my coach shot my hinge and literally said, "That is cold, its too cold, I've never told anyone this before but you need to put more heat in that." To me I have to have my hand flat and relaxed as well as entire release arm, I watch him shoot and his release has a lot of travel but he says he's pulling but to me it looks more like he's rotating the release big time. He does it very well though and I can still learn from him and he can still out shoot me.  Checked holding weight at 19.2lbs. However the highest x-count I ever shot 46X was with limbs preloaded and draw length mods short .5" and preloaded limbs to extend DL and increase BH, I didn't think to check the poundage and was surprised when I checked it to be 65lbs. I literally just shoot a bow every day 100+ arrows a day if not 200, and I'm built very stocky in the chest and back...I'm sure from all the shooting it increased. So in finality for the moment I think it was a bow shoulder position that can act like too long of a DL if there is any push on the front end as you would have to do with a DL that is way too long then the only muscle holding up the bow in the front is the deltoid and you pulling back on the string. It seems better at the moment, now to get a Stan Element to learn to pull better and still dialing in the hold. I've only been shooting freestyle for 9 months and I think I'm doing pretty decent, just hard not to be too hard on myself.


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## Fisharcher

I had to check and make sure that I had not written this post, including the stocky build comments.
I took my case to Chance B via Facebook. He was awesome and provided me with a setup suggestion that helped. He had me move my rest up so that the bottom of the arrow was at the top of the rest mount hole and set to top wheel slightly fast. This helped and the movement slowed and at times stopped but I still had some dropping out.
Then a friend told me about some comments made by George Ryals on the Truball Vegas seminars. He believes that dropping out has to do with the drawing arm setup wherein if the shoulder blade lifts during the draw cycle or at full draw it will drop the dot. I've found the best results with this with two 450/38x Vegas target rounds and an average of 447 through league for 8 weeks and several 300 Vegas rounds with the highest X count being 26.
I'm not sure why this problem seems to appear with this bow or can system. I thought that perhaps the larger diameter of the top can might result in a greater mechanical advantage on the top limb, thus making the bottom limb pull harder, but have not spoken to any engineers on the subject. Hope this helps...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## mike 66

i find it very difficult to help top shooters over the net. without seeing them shoot , most of the time you just get pieces of info of what they think is going on..but in reality it might be something else... even with watching them every once in a while i gotta break out the cam recorder and film them to see if im missing a issue...kinda sounds like anticipating the shot now, a click WILL do that...and the shoulder not in the right position..and not relaxed...... . i have seen bows with the limbs outta tune that fight each other that will cause that too.and peeps.. goes to show you it can be many different things. put the TP in the closet and close the door. work on one thing at a time and have patience.now im thinking you are on the right road, all i can say is i tried to help best i could. mike


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