# Maryland DNR ... Meetings for proposed regulation changes



## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

DNR Announces Meeting Schedule to Present Proposed Hunting & Trapping Season Dates & Regulation Changes

Posted on February 16, 2006:

ANNAPOLIS - The Maryland Department of Natural Resources (DNR) today announced the public meeting schedule to present proposed hunting and trapping regulations for resident game species and select migratory game species for both the 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 hunting license year. 

DNR's Wildlife & Heritage Service adopts hunting and trapping regulations for resident game species on a biennial schedule. Three public meetings will be held to solicit public comment. 

"We look forward to discussing our proposals with hunters and others interested in Maryland's wildlife," said Wildlife & Heritage Service Director Paul A. Peditto. "In an ongoing effort to gain public input, we have added a Saturday public meeting in addition to our evening meetings." 

For those unable to attend the public information meetings, written comments may be sent to: Paul Peditto, Director, DNR Wildlife and Heritage Service, Tawes State Office Building E-1, Annapolis, MD, 21401. Citizens may also call (410) 260-8540 or toll-free in Maryland at (877) 620-8DNR, ext.8540. Comments may also be sent by fax to (410) 260-8596, or via e-mail to [email protected]. 

The proposed regulations and comments received by e-mail can be viewed at http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/comments/2006seasonprop.html. 

Public comments on the proposed regulations will be accepted until 4 p.m., Monday March 13. 

Public meeting locations 

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 (7 p.m.) 

Easton High School 
723 Mecklenburg Ave. 
Easton, MD 

Directions: From Rt. 50, take Dutchman's Lane (right turn if east-bound on Rt. 50 or left turn if west bound on Rt. 50) for 0.2 miles. Turn left on Mecklenburg Avenue. Proceed 0.2 miles, and the school is on the left. Presentations in the cafeteria. 

Thursday, March 9, 2006 (7 p.m.) 

Fort Hill High School 
500 Greenway Avenue 
Cumberland, MD 

Directions: From I-68 take Exit 44 (Baltimore Avenue and Willowbrook Road). From the east, turn left on Willowbrook Road; from the west turn right on Willowbrook Road. Go to the stop sign and turn right on Williams Road. Take Williams Road to the top of the hill and turn left on Avendale Avenue. The school parking lot is on the right. The meeting will be held in the school cafeteria, entrance at the back of the school. 

Saturday, March 11, 2006 (1 p.m.) 

Central Middle School 
211 Central Avenue East 
Edgewater, MD 

Directions: From Route 50 - East or West. Take Aris Allen Boulevard (MD Route 665) to Southbound MD Route 2; continue southbound MD Route 2; turn left at MD 214 East. Turn right into the South River complex at Mayo Road at Central Avenue traffic light; make an immediate left onto Nancy Hardesty Way. Follow signs to Central Middle School. Turn right into the Central Middle School parking lot. 


http://somd.com/news/headlines/articles/3338.shtml


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

Interesting report on the crossbow harverst...
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/gpar/gpdeer_table2.asp

and on sunday hunting.
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/gpar/gpdeer_table3.asp

Looks like twice as many deer taken in a 1 day sunday season for both
bow and firearms, in a very limited number of counties I might add, than all deer taken with crossbows during all seasons.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/gpar/gpdeer_table1.asp

Can current crossbow numbers for 2005-2006 be presented during the meetings?

What is the rationale for not expanding this to run coresident during more of bow season?


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Interesting report on the crossbow harverst...
> http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/gpar/gpdeer_table2.asp
> 
> and on sunday hunting.
> ...


Hey, if you can attend one of these public hearings, you can bring it up yourself! You have some very good information here, and this info warrants the subjecting being brought to the table.

Good luck!


----------



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

I thought the x-bow season was a separate season the runs concurrent with bow season, how come no numbers on table (1) for the x-bow? Are we to add the x-bow numbers to this total? And I find it very interesting the numbers of deer killed on the Sunday hunts, this looks like it should be the biggest push for those in Maryland that want to control deer numbers. If I remember right, there were what, two Sundays in the 04 05 season open to deer hunting? If my math is right on just two days of hunting 2% of the deer killed were killed in these two days, just think what could happen if it was opened to Sundays during the whole season.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

Free Range said:


> I thought the x-bow season was a separate season the runs concurrent with bow season, how come no numbers on table (1) for the x-bow? Are we to add the x-bow numbers to this total? And I find it very interesting the numbers of deer killed on the Sunday hunts, this looks like it should be the biggest push for those in Maryland that want to control deer numbers. If I remember right, there were what, two Sundays in the 04 05 season open to deer hunting? If my math is right on just two days of hunting 2% of the deer killed were killed in these two days, just think what could happen if it was opened to Sundays during the whole season.


It appears to be a separate season that runs concurrently. I think they need to call it a separate season to let us crips use it throughout the season, and still define it as a separate season for all others, and (especially?) to ease the transition for trad/compound bowhunters so they don't feel like they're losing anything.

I agree that its kind of murky. Why they broke the crossbow numbers out on a separate worksheet, I don't know, but they did, and I can only assume that they'll apply consistency.

The numbers released (on 2/14 for 2005->6) didn't have crossbow numbers busted out either. I wouldn't expect the numbers to be reproduced that might allow for double counting. You're right...it needs to be defined.

Aren't the sunday numbers something!! 
I rememer what you remember (only 2 days.(

I'm not saying opening it up to sunday's is THE answer. We'll know more once
the sunday numbers for last 2005/6 are in. I am saying that lots of things are worthy of consideration, depending on one's view of the "problem."

IF they didn't let the seasons run concurrently and shut down bow season to open up crossbow season (and let trad/compound hunters use their gear), then they would pretty much lock in a course that kept the two forever separate. I think it makes sense based on an assumption that eventually we have a single bow season, which will probably happen once/if everyone sees there is no real difference in harvest rates.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

doctariAFC said:


> Hey, if you can attend one of these public hearings, you can bring it up yourself! You have some very good information here, and this info warrants the subjecting being brought to the table.
> 
> Good luck!


I went and laid it out for our friends in the DNR at the public meeting on saturday. I summarized the below paper and asked for a unified/single bow season for all bow hunters of all types as opposed to a concurrent crossbow season, in region B.

There was one gentleman who chose to speak in opposition to my position.
He wants them disallowed generally and allowed for only the disabled because "well...its just not right for people without disabilities to be using a crossbow."

I spoke with this gent after the meeting and carefully explained my position. He seemed to see the light. Long story short is there are folks that will listen as long as "we" listen too. I understand his point of view in not wanting to see tradition die in the state. Like I've said before...there are some downright gorgeous longbows and recurves made here in Maryland. Their beauty AND usefulness will keep them in production for a long time to come. He seemed to warm to the idea of 'traditional days' only but we both acknowledged that there would be one ton of upset compound hunters if we shortened their season. When he looked at it from all points of view...he got the sense that maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all.

I got to have a chat with the biologist (very intelligent guy I might add) and left him the following paper.

We'll see changes in Md next go around...and possibly this one. I would love to see the DNR make a decision on the use of crossbows concurrent for 'all' of bow season in select counties where it makes more sense than others if the only point of view considered is maximum herd reduction. 
+++++++++++++
There are many folks and organizations who would like to do away with the use of crossbows altogether. Not just in the state of Maryland but across the nation. I believe that there is still a ‘lot’ of misinformation floating around, as a result of these prejudicial attitudes towards crossbows. While we’re moving in the right direction (e.g. Kentucky’s new rules were just approved), we can go farther.

Prejudice
The question is ‘why’ do these prejudicial attitudes exist? 

Is it because of a “holier than thou” attitude about equipment use? Maybe.
How about an attempt at preservation of the use of ‘traditional’ equipment? Perhaps.

Is it because some folks fear an overcrowding of the woods during bow season as previous firearms only hunters take to the woods with crossbows? Could be.

Few can question that this is a hotly debated topic embracing bowhunters across the nation. And I mean ALL types of bowhunters, including crossbow hunters.

The DNR has chosen an appropriate path by running concurrent crossbow and bow seasons. Please do not listen to those who would have crossbows eliminated for all but the disabled. Instead let’s consider a single bow season for all. Thanks for allowing those over 65 the chance to stay in the field. Thanks for allowing those of us with medical problems to stay in the field. But it shouldn’t be ‘just’ for those of us who have been around for awhile. 

I challenge any traditional or compound bow hunter to talk about how my use of a crossbow, regardless of my age or disability status, in a single unified bow season, will negatively affect and impact his/her hunting experience. I’ll listen.

Until then, let’s ask the question. What are the objectives? I submit we want more people involved with hunting. We want them educated in safety, tradition, and the ethics of our sport. We want them to be successful, which I measure by days in the field vs. game in the freezer. That’s icing on the cake.

Is getting more people into the field during the bow seasons an objective? If hunters can’t have Sunday hunting, can they have more time in the woods, with their kids, with an expanded crossbow season? Will we get more kids into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get adults into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get more hunters from firearms having more days in the field because of crossbows? I suggest that answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Looking at the 2004/5 stats…twice as many deer were taken in a 1 day sunday season for both bow and firearms, in a very limited number of counties I might add, than all deer taken with crossbows during all seasons.

Can current crossbow numbers for 2005-2006 be presented today?

Based on these harvest rates, please explain the rationale for not expanding crossbow use to be used either during more of bow season, or to have a single season.

Let’s also talk about success when it comes to demographics, to dispel some of the myths about the crossbow. Please collect relevant data during the next 2 years which defines successful (or not) harvests between kids/teens, young adults, the disabled, adults, and our elderly who choose to use crossbows. Let’s get the real story out on the table. Let’s collect the information that we haven’t to provide clarity to the differences, or lack thereof, between crossbows, traditional, and compound bows. 

We need comparative results to appropriately assess and inform the hunting public.
Choose to create a single season and eliminate the animosity between the various types of bowhunters. Choose to collect and publish the information necessary to prove or disprove the things being said by those against the use of crossbows. 

For those of you who may wonder, I’ve been a resident of Maryland all my life and have no financial interest in crossbows.

Thanks for your time!!!


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Typical crossbow talking points - nothing new or original here.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> +++++++++++++
> There are many folks and organizations who would like to do away with the use of crossbows altogether.


The implication here is bowhunters and bowhunting organizations believe this. That's simply not true. They would like to do away with crossbows during bowseason, but I have not seen a stance on banning crossbows altogether.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Prejudice
> The question is ‘why’ do these prejudicial attitudes exist?


Assumes facts not in evidence. Is bowhunter opposition to crossbows prejudicial - or protectionist?



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I challenge any traditional or compound bow hunter to talk about how my use of a crossbow, regardless of my age or disability status, in a single unified bow season, will negatively affect and impact his/her hunting experience. I’ll listen.


Same sorry old crossbow talking point. So what if it doesn't? Your using a flintlock, or a handgun, or a sluggun wouldn't impact a single bowhunter either. Why do we not lobby for or allow these into bowseason?

Simple - they do not belong in bowseason. Neither does a crossbow. Your number 1 talking point turns out to be ...... irrelevant.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Is getting more people into the field during the bow seasons an objective? If hunters can’t have Sunday hunting, can they have more time in the woods, with their kids, with an expanded crossbow season? Will we get more kids into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get adults into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get more hunters from firearms having more days in the field because of crossbows? I suggest that answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.



We do not need more hunters in archery season. We need more bowhunters. Bowhunters welcome all of those with bowhunting's best interests to join us .... with a bow.

When the time comes to defend bowhunting from firearms intrusion, who is more likely to defend bowhunting? Bowhunters, or those firearm converts you are courting for your crossbows?


Crossbow hunters are just that, crossbow hunters. They are not, and will never be, bowhunters.


----------



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

Good post source.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

From the feedback I received from one who attended one of these meetings, it appears apathy is continuing to be a major concern for the future of hunting.

This person reported that a whopping two archers showed up to stand up for the bowhunters, and nearly all those in attendance were a little "long in the tooth". Mainly the meeting that was commented on seemed to be a showcase for DNR folks to hear themselves talk.

I sincerely hope Maryland Hunters get more involved in the future. The public comment period closed yesterday, I believe, and if this meeting is indicative of public participation for all meetings, well, Maryland hunters and anglers have more work to do in educating the hunting and angling public on the iportance of getting involved. Would be beneficial to start getting younger club members involved in the process as well...


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

Dismissive...very nice. 
The potential exists that not everyone is as well versed on the topic as you.

I said:

"There are many folks and organizations who would like to do away with the use of crossbows altogether. Not just in the state of Maryland but across the nation."

You said:

"The implication here is bowhunters and bowhunting organizations believe this. That's simply not true. They would like to do away with crossbows during bowseason, but I have not seen a stance on banning crossbows altogether."

As long as you deal with the issue in snippets and sound bites, while never connecting things, then that is the case.

Pope and Young says:
http://www.pope-young.org/clubnews.asp
"We see dangers, too, in promoting the commercial profiteering of crossbows at the expense of our national resources, " Ballard said. "It's a slippery slope. No user group exists for crossbow hunting and yet the public trustees of our natural resources are being pandered to by crossbow manufacturers and the commerce of hunting to allow crossbow hunting in bow seasons when no public interest exists."

when no public interest (yet) exists. Meanwhile Pope and Young does its best job to keep one from existing in the first place. That's an excellent way of creating a circular problem that can never be resolved.

This is a 'nip it in the bud' position statement. I'll treat the whole paragraph in its entirety. There is an expense to our national resources if crossbows are used in bow season. This suggests that there is no expense to national resources if crossbow hunting is conducted in a separate season. No not really. They didn't say that. They didn't even imply that. You have to read between the lines to get to that. So would pope and young say that its okay to have an expense of national resources, as long as its not in bow season? 
No because they want to associate crossbows with an expense, on a general level. I suggest that the objective is to form public opinion about their use in general, and limit their use altogether.

They are clearly engaged in circular problem creation, when you put together everything they say. They don't like crossbows and they don't want them used to take 'their' deer.

Excerpts from a dnr meeting where Dr. Swalec Illinois DNR where he has a conversation with Jerry Gille of UBI
++++++++++
http://dnr.state.il.us/legislation/CONSRV/June04.htm

"Jerry Gille, president of the United Bowhunters of Illinois: Thanks for the chance to comment. Couldn’t have picked a more contentious issue among bowhunters. Only comments on the use of crossbows in archery season. Commends Dr. Swalec for wanting to increase opportunities. Not seeing a decline in bowhunters. These "new" users will come from gun hunters who switch because it looks easier than conventional bows. It will be user groups switching back and forth. Harvest trends will change dramatically. Crossbow users will change the face of bowhunting.

We want bowhunting to remain challenging. Want a certain type of bowhunter. Bowhunters have a sense of entitlement. Competition for access to private land will increase. Brings us back to the issue of access. Senior citizens can use modern bowhunting equipment. Bows are legal at 40 pounds with let off, which could be 85-90%, only holding small poundage. Today’s equipment is so user friendly. UBI older members were outraged that they would need a crutch of short cut. You may increase opportunity but will be at a cost. Already have a bow season that is overcrowded with little access.

Winchester: What if the crossbow use was in firearm season?

Gille: Doesn’t want to comment on a gun issue, we are bowhunters as long as it doesn’t impact our bow season we would not be opposed. 

Swalec: Data presented today is based upon perceptions that contradict. Bowhunters want ot eliminate crossbows and want to maintain knowledge and skill level. Others say if takes little or not skill to shoot a crossbow. Seems contradictory to eliminate people who could pick this up. Crossbow could be a detriment to some doe populations in some areas. Has trouble eliminating others’ opportunities because of one groups’ opinion.

Gille" If crossbows has significant impact on harvest them archery bowhunters are lumped into one group."

+++++++++
So Gille has his chance to talk. Swalec sums up his preceptions of what Gille is saying. Swalec flat out says that 'bowhunters' want to eliminate crossbows. Gille rebutts'confirms' Swalec's statement by saying that all bows will be lumped into one group. (he already stated that crossbows WOULD have a significant impact on harvest rates...'harvest trends will change dramatically) He had the chance to reiterate...NO...we only want crossbows to NOT be in bowseason. 

Why would he say what he said? I believe he is talking about 'perception' when he says all bows will be lumped into one group. Perception is what he is concerned about. Having to have a single season is what he's concerned about. 

Swalec says perceptions that contradict. Contradict what? Does Swalec imply contradict 'reality'? I think so. If that's the case...Dr. Swalec is suggesting that prejudice exists."An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts."

Maybe the statements regarding harvest rates?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

I said

" I challenge any traditional or compound bow hunter to talk about how my use of a crossbow, regardless of my age or disability status, in a single unified bow season, will negatively affect and impact his/her hunting experience. I’ll listen."

You said
"Same sorry old crossbow talking point. So what if it doesn't? Your using a flintlock, or a handgun, or a sluggun wouldn't impact a single bowhunter either. Why do we not lobby for or allow these into bowseason?

Simple - they do not belong in bowseason. Neither does a crossbow. Your number 1 talking point turns out to be ...... irrelevant."

Does "so what if it doesn't?" mean the same thing as "It doesn't but its irrelevant!" I'll assume yes for the purposes of discussion. I'm glad you agree that it doesn't.

I believe firearms don't belong in bow season for good reason. 
"Your using a flintlock, or a handgun, or a sluggun wouldn't impact a single bowhunter either. "
I wholeheartedly disagree and would never consider doing this.
I might get shot or shoot someone. I'd say 'that' is impactful. To solve that we'd have to all wear orange. Still I'd feel uncomfortable with it because visibility is limited with the foliage still on the trees and bushes. It would be unsafe to use firearms with everyone walking around in camo with foliage on the trees. That's why I wouldn't allow firearms into bowseason. 
Not so irrelevant eh? Safety first...right?

So now that we've established, arguably good reasons, for why firearms don't belong in bow season, let's get back to the subject at hand. Why don't crossbows belong in bow season.

Is that your #1 response? No wonder folks keep asking the same unanswered question. Source...I don't own a crossbow....yet.

Please help me understand why I shouldn't get one.


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

I'll respond to this post because I can't understand what the heck you are trying to say in the post prior to this. 



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I believe firearms don't belong in bow season for good reason.
> "Your using a flintlock, or a handgun, or a sluggun wouldn't impact a single bowhunter either. "
> I wholeheartedly disagree and would never consider doing this.
> 
> I might get shot or shoot someone.


You are saying you cannot get shot or shoot someone with a crossbow? It happens every year. Point dismissed...




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I'd say 'that' is impactful. To solve that we'd have to all wear orange. Still I'd feel uncomfortable with it because visibility is limited with the foliage still on the trees and bushes. It would be unsafe to use firearms with everyone walking around in camo with foliage on the trees. That's why I wouldn't allow firearms into bowseason.
> Not so irrelevant eh? Safety first...right?


Ahhh ... you are changing the rules in midstream. Are you now asking about the GROUP of hunters using (in this case) firearms?

Because in the first case you were talking singularly - what the impact was if you used a crossbow while another used a bow.


The case becomes significantly more complex if we're talking about a group of hunters. But you weren't. Please answer the question again in the singular...how is your hunting affected if I am using a flintlock?



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source...I don't own a crossbow....yet.
> 
> Please help me understand why I shouldn't get one.


You live in MD, they are legal .... get one if you want. What do I care?

But don't call yourself a bowhunter .... because you won't be.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

I said

"Is getting more people into the field during the bow seasons an objective? If hunters can’t have Sunday hunting, can they have more time in the woods, with their kids, with an expanded crossbow season? Will we get more kids into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get adults into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get more hunters from firearms having more days in the field because of crossbows? I suggest that answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes."


You said
"We do not need more hunters in archery season. We need more bowhunters. Bowhunters welcome all of those with bowhunting's best interests to join us .... with a bow.

When the time comes to defend bowhunting from firearms intrusion, who is more likely to defend bowhunting? Bowhunters, or those firearm converts you are courting for your crossbows?


Crossbow hunters are just that, crossbow hunters. They are not, and will never be, bowhunters."

Why is it okay for disabled hunters to use crossbows during bow season?
I used to be a traditional bowhunter. Compounds too. Now that I'm a planning on being crossbowhunter (actually planning on being one) will I have never been a "bowhunter?" Does it erase my past? Have I crossed over to the dark side? So if I'm a crossbow hunter hunting in bow season...what does that make me? "Just" a crossbow hunter?

This is what I mean by prejudice. You don't know me from Adam, yet I'm no longer a real bow in your eyes. 

Do you distinguish between long bows, recurves, and compounds? If so, tell me where because I don't see it happening in here. If not...why not? 

"When the time comes to defend bowhunting from firearms intrusion, who is more likely to defend bowhunting? Bowhunters, or those firearm converts you are courting for your crossbows?"

Firearms intrusion is already occurring. At least in Maryland, if you look at our history you'll see it. The question is 'why?' Maybe because the bowhunters weren't getting the harvest done that needed to be done? Maybe you don't have that "problem" in your state. Its a great "problem" to have and I want everyone to be able to enjoy it while we have it. We have a stabilized antlered harvest rate and a growing antlerless harvest rate which means that things are working, sustainable, AND we have a growing herd You treat me like the enemy. More bowhunters (all kinds) means a lengthier bow season as opposed to a shrinking one here because bowhunters aren't getting the job done.

Maybe if we had more of the harvest coming from bows of all kinds they'd be less inclined to jink with the season, and not take days away and give them to firearms?

Once the converts discover the beauty of bowhunting...and its differences...maybe they'll pick up their bows a little more often then their guns?

Did I tell you I took a nice typical 8 pointer with a bow on opening day of gun season? He's looking good over my desk.

Maryland's other "problem" is that with the two footed population densities skyrocketing a number of areas are becoming bow only. The areas where we have unlimited doe harvests, for bow, are the most densely populated.

There's no farmers to hand out nuisance licenses to. 

Your recommendation?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

You said:

"I'll respond to this post because I can't understand what the heck you are trying to say in the post prior to this"

No sweat. I'll keep it simple.
You don't see a stance by bowhunters and bowhunting organizations to eliminate crossbows because you refuse to connect the dots of what they are saying. Out of one side of their mouth they say they only care about their use in bow season. Out of the other side they are saying the harvest from crossbows will have a negative impact on bowhunters.

DNR says bowhunters want to eliminate crossbows.

UBI resonds with:
"If crossbows has significant impact on harvest them archery bowhunters are lumped into one group."

go back and look at the url and decide for yourself whether bowhunters want to eliminate crossbows.


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> You said
> Crossbow hunters are just that, crossbow hunters. They are not, and will never be, bowhunters."
> 
> 
> Why is it okay for disabled hunters to use crossbows during bow season??


Because they need the additional help to level the playing field.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I used to be a traditional bowhunter. Compounds too. Now that I'm a planning on being crossbowhunter (actually planning on being one) will I have never been a "bowhunter?" Does it erase my past? Have I crossed over to the dark side? So if I'm a crossbow hunter hunting in bow season...what does that make me? "Just" a crossbow hunter?


Am I a bowhunter when I carry a slug gun during firearms season? I think not. You have answered your own question. You used to be a bowhunter. Now you are a crossbow hunter.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> This is what I mean by prejudice. You don't know me from Adam, yet I'm no longer a real bow in your eyes.
> 
> Do you distinguish between long bows, recurves, and compounds? If so, tell me where because I don't see it happening in here. If not...why not?


Simple .... all are bows, hand held and hand drawn. Your crossbow is simply...not.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Maybe if we had more of the harvest coming from bows of all kinds they'd be less inclined to jink with the season, and not take days away and give them to firearms?


This is clearly just another crossbow myth. Your crossbows have not and will not dent the deer population. Management is totally dependent on guns and tags....state after state has shown this to be true.





oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Once the converts discover the beauty of bowhunting...and its differences...maybe they'll pick up their bows a little more often then their guns?


How can they discover the beauty of bowhunting if you never make them pick up a bow? 



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Did I tell you I took a nice typical 8 pointer with a bow on opening day of gun season? He's looking good over my desk.


Congratulations....private land, I'm guessing?


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> You said:
> 
> "I'll respond to this post because I can't understand what the heck you are trying to say in the post prior to this"
> 
> ...


I think you are reading too much into this. If Bowhunting Orgs are resisting crossbows in their entirity it is most likely due to what we are seeing in KY. Give them some, and they scream and cry and complain that they do not have all.

Most bowhunters (individuals) probably feel as I do. Crossbows deserve a season, just not all of bow season.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

thesource said:


> I think you are reading too much into this. If Bowhunting Orgs are resisting crossbows in their entirity it is most likely due to what we are seeing in KY. Give them some, and they scream and cry and complain that they do not have all.
> 
> Most bowhunters (individuals) probably feel as I do. Crossbows deserve a season, just not all of bow season.


Well said. We should work together, not separately. And on another related vein, neither side should be parading any victory dances in front of the opposition, no matter what side of the fence you're on. The in your face, my way or the highway, then see we won you lost, hahahaha, baloney doesn't cut it. It is becoming increasingly evident that, like in US politics today, we have a very small, but vocal element of each side, and these folks are serving to undermine the vast majority of hunters.

Both sides scream, and cry and complain, and the majority gets whacked in the middle. In the end, hunting takes it on the chin, and that, IMHO, is just plain WRONG!

Let's get to the table, talk, examine, question and above all, keep the level heads most of us demonstrate we have. No doubt some disagreements will exist, but through compromise we get things accomplished and grow support and unity. After all, we have enough challenges coming from outside our own ranks, such as from HSUS, ASPCA and PETA, not to mention seeing increasing costs and diminishing access to continue to beat our own specialized hunters up, simply to do so. We have 3, 4, 5 decades of the same thing going on, from both sides. Can we not learn?

Compromise is good for all, even though it may disappoint some on both sides. Through compromise, we just may find out each side made good points, and we can address and assuage them all.....

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Doctari -

Good points.

My newest concern is how to keep a compromise a compromise, however.

The MD crossbow season is a compromise, as MBA was totally opposed to crossbows (as I understand it) but compromised to allow partial co-current season.

Now you have more screaming and yelling for additional ingress into an already compromised season.

We are already hearing the same thing in KY.

Your proposal for NY contained a similar "renegotiation" clause.

I only see ONE side giving here. I think bowhunters will require some guarantee of good faith moving forward if they are expected to compromise.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

thesource said:


> Doctari -
> 
> Good points.
> 
> ...


I see your point. This is a big reason why the revisit clause I mentioned in my compromise proposal contains some very specific goals and thresholds to reach. I am not for simply saying, hey, let's compromise now, and then go for more later without setting the bar for this effort up front. For instance, if we all come to the table and agree on a compromise, a review period for performance should be agreed to, and the level of success/ goals to be attained should also be hammered out. But done up front. And given a good period of time to allow the fad affect to abate. I like the five year period, simply because it matches the time period that USF&W conducts their in depth reviews of hunting and fishing. However, this period must be worked out, and goals must be clear (and realistic, based on facts from other states, then applied to your home as reasonable measures of success.)

Simply to throw in a review for review sake does nothing. Must have some clear cut goals and benchmarks defined during the negotiation process. If you don't hit the goals, no expansion talks needed.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

I said:

"Maybe if we had more of the harvest coming from bows of all kinds they'd be less inclined to jink with the season, and not take days away and give them to firearms?"

You said:
"This is clearly just another crossbow myth. Your crossbows have not and will not dent the deer population. Management is totally dependent on guns and tags....state after state has shown this to be true."

Are you saying that the vertical and horizontal bow harvest has no and won't have an impact? Let's look at Ohio. Look at table 1. 
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/pub304_05.pdf
How can you say what you're saying with a straight face?

"Totally" is the wrong word to use when 25k/61k/123k are the harvest rates for ML, archery, and firearms in Ohio, where there are liberal crossbow regulations. 

Now look at Maryland
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/dnrnews/pressrelease2006/0506deer_harvest.html
21/21/51 are the harvest rates for ML, archery, and firearms respectively.

I'll do the math for you: Harvest rates from the two references (in 1000's)
Type	MD	% OH	% 
ML	21	22.58%	25	11.96%
Bow	21	22.58%	61	29.19%
Firearms	51	54.84%	123	58.85%
93 209	

How long is Ohio's Muzzleloading season?
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Hunting/proposedregs/deerfull.htm
"Statewide muzzleloader season would open on Wednesday, December 27, and run through Saturday, December 30."

4 days

How long is Maryland's muzzleloading season?

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/comments/2006seasonprop.html#deer

22 days

My statement stands....maybe if maryland bowhunters of all types HAD been more successful in the past, they'd have more days in the field where they aren't wearing orange.

Taking away bowhunting days has not been a myth in the state of maryland. 

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/appendixa.html
"Maryland's first muzzleloader season was held in 1978 ( December 7 to December 9). With the initiation of this new opportunity, hunter interest in muzzleloader hunting have continued growing. In response to the popularity of muzzleloader hunting, various modifications have been made to the timing and length of the muzzleloader season since 1978. The 1997-98 muzzleloader season is comprised of two segments: October 16 to October 19, and December 20 to January 3."

You'll find that firearms was also extended to two weeks as well.

Your word "won't" I'll put in the same category as your word "totally"

Crossbows are beginning to make a dent in the harvest rates already in the state of Maryland, like they made a dent in Ohio. The DNR's latest harvest report slides show crossbows as the growing sliver between guns and bows (your definition anyway) and it will be increasing each year. The state biologist said as much.

Do they make as much of a dent as a single sunday of bow/gunhunting in select counties? Not even close. Yet. I already said that. 

You said:
"How can they discover the beauty of bowhunting if you never make them pick up a bow? "

I find that you never having willing participants when you 'make' them do anything. Letting them pick up a longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow is the way to do get them to see for themselves.

You said:
"Congratulations....private land, I'm guessing?"

Good guess.


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

"How long is Ohio's Muzzleloading season?
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/...s/deerfull.htm
"Statewide muzzleloader season would open on Wednesday, December 27, and run through Saturday, December 30."

4 days"

your actually forgetting about a special three day season we have in state forest lands. so we have a total of 7 days


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

Marvin said:


> "How long is Ohio's Muzzleloading season?
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/...s/deerfull.htm
> "Statewide muzzleloader season would open on Wednesday, December 27, and run through Saturday, December 30."
> 
> ...


Actually the special season for 2006 is 6 days and its very restricted.
That's why I didn't include it.

It reads as follows: 

"Special area muzzleloader hunts would be open Monday, October 23 through Saturday, October 28 at Salt Fork, Shawnee and Wildcat Hollow. Muzzleloader hunts at these areas are by special permit only, with a random drawing held prior to the season for a limited number of antlered and unlimited number of antlerless permits."


----------



## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Actually the special season for 2006 is 6 days and its very restricted.
> That's why I didn't include it.
> 
> It reads as follows:
> ...


 man I didn't know they changed the rules. I killed my first buck in this season. it used to be open to everybody and antlered deer only with 4 inch minimum. too bad. It been a long while thats for sure but you do need to include it.


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Oldbhntrnewequip -

I'll consider myself fairly reprimanded for using too strong a wording. (semantics.)

Please change "totally" to "almost entirely" and "will not dent" to "will not significantly dent".....

Happy?

Doesn't change the point of the post. Using OH, and its 7 day gun season, as a model for comparison is silly. Please investigate the southern states who actually complain about deer overpopulation (AL for example) who need additional herd reduction. AL and GA have crossbows, yet still have a significant problem controlling their herds. How can this be?


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

thesource said:


> Oldbhntrnewequip -
> 
> I'll consider myself fairly reprimanded for using too strong a wording. (semantics.)
> 
> ...


Because....

Harvest rates with crossbows are virtually identical to that of the compound bow, the number of new hunters coming into the woods is not the flood of gun hunters picking up the crossbow to hunt during archery???

Only pulling your chain there, Source. Actually, just like everywhere else, development is retricting hunter's ability to get out and hunt places they used to, and with more suburbs, deer adapt and find the best food in the lawns and gardens and landscaping of the 'burbs.

Jobs growth in the southern states means more houses, shopping centers, highways, etc....


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

doctariAFC said:


> Only pulling your chain there, Source. Actually, just like everywhere else, development is retricting hunter's ability to get out and hunt places they used to, and with more suburbs, deer adapt and find the best food in the lawns and gardens and landscaping of the 'burbs.
> 
> Jobs growth in the southern states means more houses, shopping centers, highways, etc....


Way, way too simplistic of an answer.

States like AL are in real trouble not because of access, but because of lower hunter numbers. They do not have enough hunters willing to kill enough deer.

I'm not aware of the actual number, but if I remember correctly it is legal for a hunter in AL to take like 200+ deer a year!

That's just not going to happen, and crossbows are just not going to help. 

They won't hurt, either, and THAT is why liberal seasons and even crossbow expansion makes some sense in the south.

But those conditions certainly do not exist everywhere, and it is way too myopic to believe that one size fits all.

OH 7 day gun season changes the hunting dynamics. AL 2,000,000 strong deer herd and 250,000 hunters changes the hunting dynamics.

I do not really care what MD does to address its hunting dynamic (its none of my business)....crossbows may be part of the solution. But I don't have to sit idly by and watch crossbow myths and misconceptions perpetuate.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

thesource said:


> Way, way too simplistic of an answer.
> 
> States like AL are in real trouble not because of access, but because of lower hunter numbers. They do not have enough hunters willing to kill enough deer.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it was a simplistic answer. And you are dead on with the lack of hunters being a huge issue as well. And you are also correct in stating the "one size fits all" approach doesn't work, for obvious reasons. Habitat differences comes to the top of my mind without even thinking...

I think all myths, both for and against crossbows are doing all hunters a disservce. This is why I like to see the facts and keep the discussions there. This is also why we need to demand from the respective DNRs and DECs that they provide some real information, with enough detail to understand, not only season harvest numbers, but implement harvest numbers as well. Not only collected, but compiled and released to the public without having to go through hoops to get the info. Getting it timely would be nice as well.
Then, come to the table, look at the facts discuss the compromise, set the goals, set the review period, and come to a solid agreement. Myths from both sides certainly do nothing but drive a wedge between hunters, and that wedge usually squashes many folks in the middle, just minding their own business.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

thesource said:


> Oldbhntrnewequip -
> 
> I'll consider myself fairly reprimanded for using too strong a wording. (semantics.)
> 
> ...


Silly? You can't be saying that with a straight face either.
If the objective is to get more days in the field where you aren't wearing orange then they epitomize the way things should be run. 

It looks to me like a good model for some states, like Maryland. Maybe Kentucky too.

It 'could' be a model for states like AL. AL's problem is they have to get more hunters in the field. Are you suggesting that any incremental help isn't worth it? 

Its not silly to compare a state like Maryland to a state like Ohio where arguably things are working towards our goal of more days without orange. I didn't change the point of the post. 

I am not saying that crossbows are the be all end all and will solve all overpopulation problems in all states. I don't think anyone is. Are you saying it has to be in order to be worthy of consideration?


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Its not silly to compare a state like Maryland to a state like Ohio where arguably things are working towards our goal of more days without orange.


Fascinating. Not only do you want crossbows to take over bowseason, you want to shorten gun season to allow more time for crossbows.

And you call bowhunters greedy? 

No wonder everyone dislikes you guys.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

:moviecorn :darkbeer: :moviecorn :darkbeer:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

thesource said:


> Fascinating. Not only do you want crossbows to take over bowseason, you want to shorten gun season to allow more time for crossbows.
> 
> And you call bowhunters greedy?
> 
> No wonder everyone dislikes you guys.


Did I not say:
"Is getting more people into the field during the bow seasons an objective? If hunters can’t have Sunday hunting, can they have more time in the woods, with their kids, with an expanded crossbow season? Will we get more kids into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get adults into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get more hunters from firearms having more days in the field because of crossbows? I suggest that answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes."

Did you not say in response:
"When the time comes to defend bowhunting from firearms intrusion, who is more likely to defend bowhunting? Bowhunters, or those firearm converts you are courting for your crossbows?"

so which ways do you want it?

Back to the question:

I am not saying that crossbows are the be all end all and will solve all overpopulation problems in all states. I don't think anyone is. Are you saying it has to be in order to be worthy of consideration?


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Did I not say:
> "Is getting more people into the field during the bow seasons an objective? If hunters can’t have Sunday hunting, can they have more time in the woods, with their kids, with an expanded crossbow season? Will we get more kids into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get adults into hunting because of crossbows? Will we get more hunters from firearms having more days in the field because of crossbows? I suggest that answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes."
> 
> Did you not say in response:
> ...


If you have a point in all this, it is not obvious to me. Your statement is hardly any sort of answer to my question.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Back to the question:
> 
> I am not saying that crossbows are the be all end all and will solve all overpopulation problems in all states. I don't think anyone is. Are you saying it has to be in order to be worthy of consideration?


Not at all. I have always said that crossbows deserve a season - can't think of a reason they should not have one and wouldn't raise it if I did.

But not bow season. Bows are held in one hand, drawn with the other, held at anchor by your own power. They have 2 plane sighting, release and follow through are important.

Bows have none of those things in common with xbows. Your habit of declaring them "all bows" is laughable.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

thesource said:


> If you have a point in all this, it is not obvious to me. Your statement is hardly any sort of answer to my question.
> .


I think there are those who aren't so blinded that they'll get my points.
You didn't ask a question. I was reiterating what both you and I had already said in response to your statement that everyone dislikes us. Your proposal to allow more days for gunhunters should sit well with them. For a little while anyway. They can take what I've said and chew on it. Sooner rather than later its going to make some sense to them.

You offer nothing to them.

We are not going to agree on this so let's just drop it. 
This isnt' doing anything for me or you, or anyone else for that matter.
I think that we've laid out the issues sufficiently to discuss the problems, challenges, and opportunities. 

Your hatred for crossbows runs too deep for me to overcome it.

"Thanks, Jim, for articulating an excellent reason why crossbows should be opposed in their entirety."


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Your hatred for crossbows runs too deep for me to overcome it.


This is the part that you crossbow guys cannot, for whatever reason, grasp.

I do not hate crossbows. I believe they are viable deer hunting tools, just as I believe in MZ, slug guns, or centerfires. I am an advocate in my state for the liberalization of exemptions for crossbows in archery season for those who need them and for a separate season for those who don't.

What I do disagree with, most vigorously, is the thought that there is no difference between bows and crossbows, the ridiculous notion that the point and shoot crossbow is just another form of a bow and should be included with bows in bowseason.

It is not. It should not. People who shoot crossbows are not bowhunters, and they will never be bowhunters unless they actually learn to shoot a bow.

The lies and misconceptions forwarded and perpetuated by crossbow advocates (that includes you, oldbhtrnewequip) to that extent irritate the he!! out of me, and I will counter them wherever and whenever I can.


----------

