# Certified Archery Instructors



## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

I understand that there is no requirement to be certified to teach archery and I am completely OK with that. What I do have a problem with is people claiming to be certified who are not. There is a local guy offering lessons and making claims about being certified in order to bolster his business. My issue is that I and many other coaches put a lot of effort and energy into our certifications all in an effort to improve the quality and integrity of our role in the sport. 

If you are gonna teach, then teach, but making false claims and deceiving people who are paying for your services is another thing entirely.


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## giltyone (Nov 9, 2009)

OCCS-RJ said:


> I understand that there is no requirement to be certified to teach archery and I am completely OK with that. What I do have a problem with is people claiming to be certified who are not. There is a local guy offering lessons and making claims about being certified in order to bolster his business. My issue is that I and many other coaches put a lot of effort and energy into our certifications all in an effort to improve the quality and integrity of our role in the sport.
> 
> If you are gonna teach, then teach, but making false claims and deceiving people who are paying for your services is another thing entirely.


Teaching for free and not being qualified is fine. You're sharing knowledge.

At least a guy can get their "intro to archery" coaches certification.


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## bigbadwoolfe (Jan 1, 2013)

giltyone said:


> Teaching for free and not being qualified is fine. You're sharing knowledge.
> 
> At least a guy can get their "intro to archery" coaches certification.


Even teaching for money and not being certified is fine. Just don't lie about being certified if you're not.


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## mprus (Oct 11, 2009)

Just curious... what extra skills and abilities does an archery 'certification' give you?


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## Fixerman812 (Sep 28, 2008)

When the warm weather hits us there is no shortage of "certified" coaches giving out dubious instruction out to newbies at the public range down behind the Science Centre. For the most part it is great for the recent surge in archers picking up the sport.

I am not an Olympic Recurve archer but do listen to pointers given out by Joan McDonald and Gary Gillies who are frequent visitors down here.


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

mprus said:


> Just curious... what extra skills and abilities does an archery 'certification' give you?


Certification teaches you principles of teaching like building effective lesson plans, understanding different stages of athlete development, effective teaching methods, etc. In the early stages it outlines and helps you with making ethical decisions regarding coaching and your athletes. You also belong to an association of your peers with whom you can share and gain skills and info from. I did not make my post to sell anyone on certifications and so do not really want to go too much down this road but I am guessing that you would not like a school crossing guard coaching your NHL team or your national team Olympic athletes._ (nothing against crossing guards of course just trying to make a point)_

The point is as bigbadwolfe stated its not whether he is certified or not its the deceptive claims. After all he is charging for the service and people are making choices based on his claims. Many people see certification as a legitimate benefit especially when it comes to dealing with kids. To be honest if i had the choice between two equally skilled people willing to teach me something and one had a certification from a legitimate organizing body i know who i would choose.


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Fixerman812 said:


> When the warm weather hits us there is no shortage of "certified" coaches giving out dubious instruction out to newbies at the public range down behind the Science Centre. For the most part it is great for the recent surge in archers picking up the sport.
> 
> I am not an Olympic Recurve archer but do listen to pointers given out by Joan McDonald and Gary Gillies who are frequent visitors down here.




Joan is a great coach and certified as well. Like everything you have better and more qualified people in any organization. And I do not claim that just because someone is certified they are better or have all the correct answers. Its about the deception and misrepresentation


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

Sounds like someone who's working out of their garage ... Misrepresenting himself to lure people in who don't know any better ... Claiming to be a 'high end archer' ... Continuously charging these vulnerable people money for 'lessons' using unfounded information ... Giving Archery a bad name


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

You talking about certified coaches or certified instructors? as my first confusion....
I believe the title "coach" starts at level 3? or beyond level 3?....nevermind...
I have in person meat with several - titled "coaches", never asked them what level they are but definitely I would not let them my own kids to train !!!!
Also on the other hand I know a decent list of great shooters without a title who may want to help, I would want them to "coach" my two boys......whatever it takes !!!
I don't want to create emotions but I have to note this sport is getting ridiculously "ethical" lately for a cost of two hundred bucks seminar, and how to judge now if some parents will chose an "instructor-coach" for their kids a person "A" over the person "B" regardless of any titles....


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

bigHUN said:


> You talking about certified coaches or certified instructors? as my first confusion....
> I believe the title "coach" starts at level 3? or beyond level 3?....nevermind...
> I have in person meat with several - titled "coaches", never asked them what level they are but definitely I would not let them my own kids to train !!!!
> Also on the other hand I know a decent list of great shooters without a title who may want to help, I would want them to "coach" my two boys......whatever it takes !!!
> I don't want to create emotions but I have to note this sport is getting ridiculously "ethical" lately for a cost of two hundred bucks seminar, and how to judge now if some parents will chose an "instructor-coach" for their kids a person "A" over the person "B" regardless of any titles....


you are missing the point* its about* the *misrepresentation* and *deceit* and yes i think this sort of thing is unethical. I don't think honesty is a ridiculous expectation during a business transaction. When you take some ones money it becomes business.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I'm not sure who you are talking about, RJ, but if this person is representing himself as having OAA, AC or NCCP certification but doesn't, you should bring his claims to the attention of the appropriate association.

One thing to consider...I have known a few Americans living in Canada who had NAA certification but weren't on the Canadian coaching lists. Perhaps this person has certification from another country and you aren't aware of it? Just asking...?


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Stash said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking about, RJ, but if this person is representing himself as having OAA, AC or NCCP certification but doesn't, you should bring his claims to the attention of the appropriate association.
> 
> One thing to consider...I have known a few Americans living in Canada who had NAA certification but weren't on the Canadian coaching lists. Perhaps this person has certification from another country and you aren't aware of it? Just asking...?


Thanks Stash, already done


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

Stash,
You made reference to Canadian coaching lists.
Is there a public list or link to lists of coaches / instructors who are OAA , AC or NCCP certified in Canada? If those list are available, it maybe beneficial to have those posted on AT especially with the increase in the sport of archery and the number of requests clubs or local archery stores are seeing from new archers or parents looking into lessons for their children. 
Our club alone receives several requests each week from new members or potential new members inquiring about lessons or locations where there kids have shown an interest in the sport of archery and would like to have an opportunity to try out some equipment with proper instruction prior to making an investment in equipment.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I believe the newcomers to this sport want the best service regardless of title, gender, time or age....
They want to get up to a level asap, they want to go shooting and they want to see their scores climbing, and they want all this and many more -> now. 
We know if they feel just for a moment they can not score well enough, they will most likely go somewhere else.
After a good year or so whoever is left on the list you may want to grab them all and start teaching them ethics and showing the next levels in the sport. 
But for now I would let the "best in class" entertain with them and me personally would put this your request for "titles" aside...I believe pushing it forward is worthless unless, harms your-own business....


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

DssBB said:


> Stash,
> You made reference to Canadian coaching lists.
> Is there a public list or link to lists of coaches / instructors who are OAA , AC or NCCP certified in Canada?


I don't know. There used to be, but it was difficult to keep up-to-date. I'm sure if you contacted the OAA or AC person responsible they could produce it or direct you to it.

I just e-mailed Bruce Savage (OAA Coaching Coordinator) about it and I'll post what he replies.


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## 3--d (Feb 15, 2005)

Last year I got the OAA [Bruce Savage]to come down to us here in Kingston to do a NCCP coaching course
Out of the 12 of us only one of us completed the remaining on line course to get NCCP instructor the rest of us at the time completed NCCP instructer trained
But to be honest , knowing and passing on that information is different in each person.
NCCP teaches only everybody to be consistant from coach to coach nothing about the information that years of experience teaches you

Andy


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## crazymoose (May 17, 2005)

I guess its one thing to take the NCCP course but the question still remains did the individual write the exam at the end to obtain their certification.
If not, then in my opinion he or she is not a certified coach or instructor.
That would make them just an ordinary person giving lessons for a fee.
I see your concern and in my opinion it may offend some people in the archery community.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

crazymoose said:


> ...it may offend some people in the archery community....


Sorry for a contrast but I shall call for a little attention here, my standpoint may not be an isolated view, 
My best opinion is, that the coaching certificate shall not be awarded to all below a recorded score of 300 or 700 or 1400 class (and Olympic style equivalent) in the first place....
regardless of the soft skills they may have. 
What or how can me (or anybody) -earn from a "coach" experience if he/she never invest an effort to get to that level neither knows what is a cost involved? 
If "we" think cheering only is good enough for a progress then don't be surprised when the results surfaces.
I know on the other side for several people, new to the sport, coming out from 3rd party "training" and must say their skills are really impressive considering the time line. I believe these folks don't care much did their tutor had a certificate or not, and I assume they will share their good experience on a wide scale.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Well, that's certainly an interesting view on coaching qualifications. When you deduct the number of active competitors in, let's say the men and women compound division, that would leave us in Canada with...let me count them...zero qualified coaches.


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## 3--d (Feb 15, 2005)

crazymoose said:


> I guess its one thing to take the NCCP course but the question still remains did the individual write the exam at the end to obtain their certification.
> If not, then in my opinion he or she is not a certified coach or instructor.
> That would make them just an ordinary person giving lessons for a fee.
> I see your concern and in my opinion it may offend some people in the archery community.


Hey Pauly buddy
The person that did get their full coaching certificate from our course has no experience shooting and is not a people person
But Tinker, Nuge and myself are all about the sport, have alot of experience behind us and are pretty good good talkers..lol
But due to time we only are NCCP coach qualified.

I would take one of the three of us first before the "Qualified "coach

Andy


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

The intent of this thread seems to be that some individuals are calling themselves "certified" coaches when they may have never taken a coaching clinic, written any exam and in all honesty are deceiving the public by calling themselves certified. 
There are also people who are new to coaching or recently completed their first level with limited exposure to the sport and may not have years of experience or won a ton of awards but are fully capable of teaching archery. There are quite a few who are very knowledgeable in several disciplines of the sport or may have even worked for years in the archery industry and have exceptional people skills and make excellent coaches. I for one would have no problem either taking lessons or even having my daughter take lessons from anyone of those people. If they are honest from the beginning and seem to be providing sound advice and improvement is evident, then I for one are fine with the person teaching.
Where I would have a problem, is having an individual claim to be "certified" as a ploy to make extra money.


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## mprus (Oct 11, 2009)

Stash said:


> Well, that's certainly an interesting view on coaching qualifications. When you deduct the number of active competitors in, let's say the men and women compound division, that would leave us in Canada with...let me count them...zero qualified coaches.


Yes I think you put your finger on the issue... zero qualified coaches...lots of people can talk the talk (I.e. take courses) but very few can walk the walk (I.e. actually be any good)!


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

DssBB said:


> The intent of this thread seems to be that some individuals are calling themselves "certified" coaches when they may have never taken a coaching clinic, written any exam and in all honesty are deceiving the public by calling themselves certified.
> There are also people who are new to coaching or recently completed their first level with limited exposure to the sport and may not have years of experience or won a ton of awards but are fully capable of teaching archery. There are quite a few who are very knowledgeable in several disciplines of the sport or may have even worked for years in the archery industry and have exceptional people skills and make excellent coaches. I for one would have no problem either taking lessons or even having my daughter take lessons from anyone of those people. If they are honest from the beginning and seem to be providing sound advice and improvement is evident, then I for one are fine with the person teaching.
> Where I would have a problem, is having an individual claim to be "certified" as a ploy to make extra money.


exactly my point, thank you


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## 3--d (Feb 15, 2005)

that sums it up

Andy


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## 3--d (Feb 15, 2005)

that sums it up

Andy


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

mprus said:


> Yes I think you put your finger on the issue... zero qualified coaches...lots of people can talk the talk (I.e. take courses) but very few can walk the walk (I.e. actually be any good)!


There's more to becoming a good archer than taking a course. But it's a good start for a beginner. 
There's more to becoming a good coach than taking a course. But it's a good start for a beginner.

Just like becoming a good archer, becoming a good coach takes years of learning and experience, and you're a fool if you pass up any opportunity(including courses) to become a better coach. There's more to coaching than just knowing archery. You have to know how to teach, how to deal with people, how to motivate them, how to get them thinking correctly, how the body works, how to train the body.

Anybody can tell an archer what they're doing wrong.
Many people can tell an archer what they're doing right
But it takes rare and special skills to be able to tell an archer HOW to do it right and help him get there.


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Stash said:


> There's more to becoming a good archer than taking a course. But it's a good start for a beginner.
> There's more to becoming a good coach than taking a course. But it's a good start for a beginner.
> 
> Just like becoming a good archer, becoming a good coach takes years of learning and experience, and you're a fool if you pass up any opportunity(including courses) to become a better coach. There's more to coaching than just knowing archery. You have to know how to teach, how to deal with people, how to motivate them, how to get them thinking correctly, how the body works, how to train the body.
> ...


This thread seems to have taken two directions, on the secondary topic of certification and coaching I think you are right on the money Stash.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

3--d said:


> ...that sums it up...


We better stop, because the real interesting story still remaining 



OCCS-RJ said:


> ....you would not like a school crossing guard coaching your NHL team or your national team Olympic athletes....


I have meat years ago with a foreign EU country National swimming champion, immigrant, can not have a word in a swimming club and babysitting in a daycare class!!!



DssBB said:


> ...Where I would have a problem, is having an individual claim to be "certified" as a ploy to make extra money....


And, where is a moral of the story about a decent number of - way under experienced but certified "coaches" -in many of our archery schools, only to - raise the budget?...


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

bigHUN said:


> We better stop, because the real interesting story still remaining
> I have meat years ago with a foreign EU country National swimming champion, immigrant, can not have a word in a swimming club and babysitting in a daycare class!!!
> And, where is a moral of the story about a decent number of - way under experienced but certified "coaches" -in many of our archery schools, only to - raise the budget?...


OK i give up, apparently there is no value in certification, and you can make any claim you would like to whether true or not ethics be damned who needs em! 


for those of you who get it, thanks, and for those of you who don't I accept your opinion even if I strongly disagree.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

This sort of thing rights itself in time, the customer votes to continue or not. If the value is there it continues, if not it withers.

Anyone can claim an archery credential and not have it. Is there an authority that can do something about it? take away their whistle or something? No I don't think so. 

As an aside....when my daughter was 7-8 she wanted to take dance lessons. The "instructor" made her pitch to the potential sign ups and their parents. 2 of the parents asked endless credential type questions to this 17-18 year old instructor. She answered them as best she could, did a very competent demo and we signed up. The other 2 moms left with their kids in tow, seemingly because there wasn't a credential they wanted. I was surprised. The class went 8 weeks and was totally fun, instructive and worth it. We gladly paid for a second session.

In archery, results, fun, matter. Whether that is basic instruction or engagement of the student in the mindful way they teach them. If you keep them engaged they'll come back. That is the true test. If not it withers and goes away.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OCCS-RJ said:


> OK i give up, apparently there is no value in certification, and you can make any claim you would like to whether true or not ethics be damned who needs em!
> 
> 
> for those of you who get it, thanks, and for those of you who don't I accept your opinion even if I strongly disagree.


You still haven't said who it is you're complaining about, and it hasn't been established (to my satisfaction, at least) that the person in question is actually not certified and claiming he is. Again, it's up to the association that does the certifying to enforce that it's own name and programs are not being misused.

I'm sure nobody will disagree with your original contention, that people who do not have paper credentials should be allowed to claim them and presumably benefit financially.

But on the other hand, it seems to me that people with paper credentials but little or no practical experience or skill at coaching 
should not be allowed to give the impression that they are in fact experienced coaches, and presumably benefit financially, either. Someone who advertises himself only as a "certified coach" leads people to make the not necessarily true assumption that this person is a good, experienced coach.


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Stash, he is claiming NCCP level one and two certification as well as another certification not associated to archery that has proven upon investigation with the governing body to be false. I have contacted the the appropriate person within the NCCP and they find no results in the new system or the old system for this person. I do not think this is right forum to out the guy, I am not trying to ruin his business, just wanting honesty when conducting it. After all his clientèle being mostly new to the sport may not have the ability to discern the truth.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OK, I'll accept that.

You won't "out" him here, so none of us can do or say anything to him or to anyone who we know might be considering going to him. You've said you've contacted the associations about it and presumably they will contact him to discuss the issue.

So, why did you post in the first place? What is it that you want us ArcheryTalk members to do?


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## giltyone (Nov 9, 2009)

OCCS-RJ said:


> Stash, he is claiming NCCP level one and two certification as well as another certification not associated to archery that has proven upon investigation with the governing body to be false. I have contacted the the appropriate person within the NCCP and they find no results in the new system or the old system for this person. I do not think this is right forum to out the guy, I am not trying to ruin his business, just wanting honesty when conducting it. After all his clientèle being mostly new to the sport may not have the ability to discern the truth.


If he thinks he's legit - then just pointing out the actual facts may make this guy get his ducks in order. If he believes he is certified - then he needs to take the proper corrective measures to protect what he may have earned.


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Stash said:


> OK, I'll accept that.
> 
> You won't "out" him here, so none of us can do or say anything to him or to anyone who we know might be considering going to him. You've said you've contacted the associations about it and presumably they will contact him to discuss the issue.
> 
> So, why did you post in the first place? What is it that you want us ArcheryTalk members to do?


I do not know who reads or is part of this discussion board, he may well see this and take it to account. I also think that just opening the discussion has merit.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I take it you have not approached the individual directly? If done tactfully in a non-confrontational manner, that is often the best way to resolve a problem.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Monday noon, 
nothing in the fridge..... my boys told me lets go for a dinner to "Louisiana Chicken" in TO.....
that reminded me .................
"coaching" clinics -we had in subject line :zip:


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