# 2012 Cape Buffalo Arrow, tech discussion



## Don_Go

I had all this posted in several different threads across the internet, so I'm moving the tech info here. Old posts are divided by:

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The first "external footing" I tried was one inch (100 grains) of stainless .049 wall tubing. Just enough clearance on ID for some epoxy and OD is 3/8", matching the 315 grain ABS Ashby broadheads. Last time I tested arrows on cape buffalo carcases I had several failures of the ferrule/insert/arrow where the arrow meets the BH. That was NOT with the ABS Ashby broadheads, but it's still the weakest spot.) The footing gives the best "gusseting" for the shaft/ferrule interface, and stiffens and protects the end of the arrow shaft. On these Axis ST arrows the Hidden Insert Technology means that there is normally no metal (insert) on the last 0.4" of the shaft. The external footing covers that up nicely. 

Some testing yesterday seemed to indicate that the spine was at least in the ballpark. I can get decent bareshaft groups at 20 yards, with the bareshafts grouping with the fletched shafts. 

I can rotate the nock on all the bareshafts 90 degrees at a time, and they still group together. I think that might mean the dynamic spine is both sufficient and consistent around the shafts.

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For Cape Buff I plan to use the Alaska Bow Supply (ABS) Ashby heads that weigh 315 grains, and are one-piece 440C stainless. I have brass inserts that weigh 100 grains. The 3/8" SS tubing footer adds 100 grains. Add the Asby and it's a 515 grain head. 

Ed Ashby's latest thing is Extreme Front OF Center (EFOC) arrows. The idea is to use the lightest shaft/fletches/nock that has enough spine for the head. It penetrates a lot better than same-weight arrows with normal/lower FOC. If I can get the FOC above 30% it will be in his Ultra EFOC group, which he says is the ultimate in penetration. 

The lightweight shaft is also less likely to bend/break at the insert or ferrule when the arrow has to change directions as the head breaks a bone then slides into the crack. 

I remember seeing the fletches slap when testing the heavy arrow/heavy head 900 grain arrows I took to TZ last time. Had some failures on scapula shots. One was a bent Grizzlie (!), two were bent/broken ferrule/adapters. I was using 125 grain steel adapers that I had case-hardened. No adapters broke, but some bent. A mature Cape Buff has some heavy and hard bones. Even the ribs are very tough and hard and likely to make a BH slide before penetrating.

I was getting 220 fps from an 80# x 30" Allegiance last time. That's 96 KE, .87 momentum on an 895 grain arrow.

My 73# 101st matched those numbers at 30" draw, but I dropped back to a more useable 29" draw and now get 208 fps/86 KE/0.83 momentum on an 895 grain arrow. 

Guess I'm getting old. Was considering an 80# Monster for this trip, but decided that it wasn't worth the hassle. (Update: after dry-firing my 101st I am going to order an 80# Monster.)

Ashby says (and my experience upholds it) that it's a matter of how much inertia is in the broadhead and how much is in the shaft. Basically weight at the back of the shaft provides the inertia that makes the back of the arrow flop sideways when the head changes direction, stressing the ferrule area. In his testing on water buffalo carcases (almost Cape Buff from a bone standpoint) when he used heavy shafts/heavy arrows with "normal" FOC of about 15% he typically had a 16% failure rate of the shaft/insert/ferrule/adapter. When he made arrows of the same total weight, but put the weight up front (25-30% FOC) he had ZERO shaft/insert/adapter failures at the shaft/insert/ferrule/adapter on the same broadside shots that had previously caused the 16% failure rate. He said in his 2008 report that he'd test angled shots in a future test, but that has not been published yet if it has been done. (Update: Ashby has health problems that effectively prevent any further testing.)










Here's a photo of the Asbhy BH with the 3/8" SS tubing external footer.


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Here's a sketch of what I think would be the best broadhead/shaft interface design for the skinny Axis ST shafts. No bending motion can ever get applied to the threads, and the bending motion is applied to the shaft only where the insert is full diameter metal. Should be unbreakable. The head is a modified Alaska Bowhunter Supply (ABS) 315 gr Ashby.

It would require a custom insert as shown, or a piece of all-thread and a standard HIT insert (or the 75 gr Easton brass or 100 gr brass insert from 3Rivers), glued in forward in the shaft. The standard/brass commercial inserts would be inferior to a custom insert of threaded spring steel.

No luck finding a machine shop that would take this on.

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I put a section of 2.4"x2016, 1"x 2215, .25"x 2413 on a 28.5" Easton Axis ST 300 shaft. The 2413 is a press fit on the 2215, so I'm not sure if enough glue stays in to hold it. I will use 2412 for the next batch. Footing adds 40 grains total. The 28.5" arrow weighs 780 grains total with feather fletch. The FOC is 29.3%, not quite meeting Ashby's definition of Ultra Extreme FOC.













This gives one layer of support .2" past the 3 rivers 100 grain brass insert, 2 layers past the threaded section of the insert and a full 3/8" diameter end section that matches the OD of the Alaska Bowhunting Suppply Ashby broadhead.

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Testing report 10/23/2012

I tested some arrows to destruction yesterday. I put some rubber tubing on the edges of a 36" section of 2x2 angle iron. The idea was the tubing might help protect the shafts from the edges of the angle iron after the arrow deflected to the side. The tubing did not help much, as you will see.

Background: I am pretty well convinced that many reinforced shafts can survive a square direct hit on a hard surface. The problems come when the arrow deflects on heavy bone, or splits the bone and is forced to change direction to follow the split. Anybody that's hunted a lot has seen the fletches slap around when an arrow deflects in an animal. Heavy arrow shafts exacerbate the problem. High FOC arrows reduce the problem to an extent, and external footings can help support the shaft/insert. The remaining weak spot is the ferrule/shaft/insert junction. If the ferrule bends, penetration in an animal effectively stops, hence ferrule integrity is crucial to the successful hunting of heavy game.

The skidding hit on the angle iron causing an off-angle hit of the target is a very tough test of the arrow's integrity. (It is arguably too tough.)









All arrows lost or broke the nock as they hit. At least two broke off leaving a piece inside the shaft. This indicates that we need both tougher and lighter nocks. Weight at the back of the arrow is a Very Bad Thing!

First Arrow: 830 grain total weight, 28.5" Axis ST shaft, 2.5" Right helical feather fletch: [email protected] degrees, 100 grain 3Rivers brass insert, 100 grain external footing: 1" of 3/8" SS .49 wall tubing, 315 grain ABS field tip. This arrow struck about 3/4 inch from the edge of the iron and skidded to the edge, staying in contact with the iron. The arrow stayed right next to the iron and entered the target. The external footing was slightly deformed at the front face, the field point was deformed at the tip, the body was bent, and the ferrule was bent. The external footing only covered the first 1" of shaft and brass insert. The shaft was cracked at the rear of the footing and the brass insert was bent. The shaft was also damaged 6" back where the side of the shaft hit the edge of the iron.










Second arrow: 780 grain total weight, 28.5" Axis ST shaft, 2" Left Helical feather fletch: [email protected] degrees, 100 grain 3Rivers brass insert, 40 grain external footing: 2.4"x2016, 1"x 2215, .25"x 2413, 315 grain ABS field tip. This arrow struck the iron about one inch from the edge and skidded to the edge while staying in contact. The external footing was scraped on the side by the iron but otherwise intact, the field point was deformed at the tip, bent in the body and bent at the ferrule. The shaft broke in half where it slammed sideways into the edge of the iron.









first shot top arrow, second shot middle, third shot bottom









Third arrow: 780 grain total weight, 28.5" Axis ST shaft, 2" Left Helical feather fletch: [email protected] degrees, 100 grain 3Rivers brass insert, 40 grain external footing: 2.4"x2016, 1"x 2215, .25"x 2413, 315 grain ABS field tip. This arrow hit almost at the center of the iron, then bounced away far enough for the shaft to clear the iron. The tip did stay in contact with the iron from initial impact to the edge of the iron. The external footing was intact, the field point was deformed at the tip, bent in the body, and bent at the ferrule. At first it appeared that the insert had shifted forward, but that was not the case: apparently the BH had unscrewed when the bent/off center BH hit the target and the shaft kept spinning. The shaft was intact and straight. Perfectly shootable.

I'm not sure what I learned on this test, other than the three-layered footing is superior to the single thick footing. This stands to reason, as the extended, effectively tapered footing extends .3" past the brass insert, and has a full-contact interface with the ferrule. As a matter of fact the footing is 3/8 OD to match the Ashby broadhead, and is bigger than the field tip diameter. Next test I will put a "footing" on the back of the practice tip to see if the extra .025 contact patch helps the ferrule survive. I kinda doubt it, but I have gone this far...

The 315 gr field point is a fairly good model of the Ashby BH, since it extends 1.75" from the ferrule, but it is not worst case. The Ashby BH extends 2.67" from the face of the ferrule, giving it even more leverage to bend/break the ferrule. It is fairly discouraging that the body of the field tip bent all three times. (Just enough to show up when rolled on a table - not visibly bent.) Admittedly this is mild steel, but it is solid and 0.345" diameter.

We obviously need a better design somehow. After these tests I'm not sure even the "internal ferrule" BH would enable the arrow to maintain complete integrity. I suspect that with a spring-steel insert the arrow would stay straight and penetrate well, but the shaft would probably be damaged where it exited the BH. The crucial thing is the penetration, though.

Please speak up with ideas and discussion. My problems are not unique, and we might learn lessons applicable industry-wide by studying this admittedly extreme case.

Thanks,
Don


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## apexsmoke

Very interesting test! I think the test results would have been more conclusive, however, if the piece of angle iron was flush with the face of the target; such that the leading edge was flush with the face of the target in order to eliminate the back end of the arrow from slapping into the iron. For a crude example: __/__ something simmilar to this, where as soon as the arrow contacts the angle iron, it is immediately encountering the resistance of the target. This would better replicate the slip motion experienced with hitting heavy bone on the entry side of an animal. This setup may require embedding a piece of flat iron into a target...such as a 3d target; or it may even be possible to cut a "slice" at an angle into the front of a layered target, and slip a piece of flat iron into the face of the target. This would allow the arrow to slightly penetrate the target material before making contact with the metal plate. While I think your results did prove which type of external footing was more effective, I believe more results could be obtained with regards to reducing tail slap/whip of the arrow when the tip suddenly changes direction; without getting skewed results from erratic contact with the angle iron.

By the way, which Monster did you order? I've got the MR5, and have been very pleased with it. I think you'll really like the performance you're going to get out of it!


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## Don_Go

I am waiting for Nov 1 to order, on advice of my dealer.

I'm looking for better ways to protect the arrow from the edge, but I think the unrealistic nature of the iron as a model is the core problem. Since I did not see any arrow failures of the shaft on the carcases I shot in TZ in 2006, I am ignoring the shaft failures back in the middle. Basically I think the 3-layer footer is about as good as can be done with existing ferrule designs.

We need a better broadhead/ferrule design.


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## Don_Go

I just realized I did not state that the above tests were performed using my 81# Allegiance. More testing to come in a week or two.


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## Don_Go

Well, the new strings and cams seem to have fixed the 101st after I dry-fired it. Then I had to wait for my elbow to heal, but I tested an Ashby 315 gr Right Bevel broadhead today. The broadhead was glued and screwed into the arrow, and tightened with a wrench. The arrow was one of the triple-footed Axis ST 300s as described above. Ashby BH is pic below.










When it hit the angle iron the tip buried into the angle iron about .1 inches or so, then apparently the tip and the ferrule broke at about the same time. The aluminum footer smeared onto the iron within .2" of the tip strike, indicating that the ferrule broke early in the event. There is a bump on the back of the iron where the tip struck, so it had some power. The broadhead struck the iron again about 1/2" downslope from the tip strike. I think this is when the lower corner broke off, meaning the BH had flipped almost 180 degrees. The tip and the corner are stuck in the iron, but I cannot get a reasonable pic of it to come out. The BH then ricocheted back across the floor, breaking the other rear corner and taking several chips off the edge. This appears to me as if it is breaking like glass or flint. 

I also shot a glued-in practice tip at the angle iron. It is shown below. It bent at the tip, and at the ferrule. Since I cannot get it off the arrow I cannot tell if the body is bent, but I suspect it is slightly bent like all the others (not that it matters.) Note that I had glued an aluminum "footer" on the practice tip (black section in photo) so that it was the same diamter as the arrow footer. This should have given a bit more support to the ferrule - but not much. I do think that gluing in the BH is the right thing to do on a Cape Buff arrow. I might not do it on my elk arrows.










I'm going to try a bit gentler test next on the Ashby BH, shooting it glued into an unfletched footed shaft into a piece of plywood or particle board. I think the uncoordinated flight of the shaft will give the ferrule a reasonable test, about like if the tip skidded a little out of the line-of-flight on a rib. Stay tuned.


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## Don_Go

More testing 01/07/2012:

Took a piece of OSB to the range and tested the ABS Ashby, the Abowyer Brown Bear and the 300 grain VPA Penetrator against it. (Like a dummy I forgot to take my German-Kinetics.)

All BHs were tested with the same arrow, the 455 grain triple-footed Axis ST 300 described above. They were fired from a 73# 101st Airborne at a range of 20 yards.










Above is a pic of the single-bevel Ashby BH results. Full penetration, with and impressive hole blasted through.










Approximately .05" of the tip broke off the Ashby. Note again that this was at 20 yards with perfectly coordinated arrow flight. This tip should have survived, IMHO. Note also that again the tip is chipped like glass (see detail photo in post above), not torn as would happen with good, tough metal. Ido not like the metallurgy of this BH.










The single bevel Abowyer Brown Bear had similar penetration results, but the tip survived with just a slight burr. Just a few strokes with a stone would restore a perfect edge.



















The double-bevel VPA Penetrator did not penetrate as well as the two single-bevel heads, but the BH appears perfectly straight, and the tip is factory perfect. 










The above photo makes it seem like the Penetrator was stopped by the shaft, but close examination showed that the arrow never made it to the surface of the board.









I have to say, though, that of the three BHs, the metallurgy and dimensional control seems best on the VPA Penetrator. The three I got all spin true out of the box. The spine or cone that forms the ferrule on this BH starts right up at the tip of the BH, giving it maximum stiffness and resistance to bending. It will take a bit of work to get the VPA Penetrator out of the wood to see if it still spins true.

Overall the results seem to indicate once again that single-bevel BHs tend to out-penetrate double bevel heads in non-homogenous media. I make no claim that this is test mimics an animal carcase, but it is more indicative of penetration in bone than a foam target.


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## Longbow42

Have you tried the GT Kinetic 200 spine shafts? They are very strong and will give you the spine you need for such extreme FOC. I would try them with a brass HIT insert that is footed with some type of steel tubing. Use an X nock instead of the GT nock.


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## Don_Go

Yep, I have a dozen, and am using them exactly as you say, except I use the 3-Rivers 100 gr brass insert. I do not use them in destructive BH tests since I got the Pros, and they are very expensive - and even with the Axis ST 300 the arrow is not the weakness in the system; it's the BH. I also use them with 1, 2 or 3 layers of aluminum footing, I cannot find thin enough steel that fits. One layer of footing is enough to strengthen the arrow, I use the other layers as needed to match the BH base diameter for maximum ferrule support.


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## Longbow42

I would not worry about your BH standing up to the steel angle iron test, no BH is going to come out unscathed. Buffs are tough, but not steel tough. I would use 1" plywood or similar instead. My setup has over 100# KE and I can put a strong BH through 1" plywood and sometimes even two pieces. That's more similar to a buffs ribs. My Kinetic 200's with a 75 grain brass HIT can go through 2" and stand up to that without any metal collar.


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## Don_Go

I do not expect any BH to survive the angle-iron test intact. I thought I had made that clear. I am looking for a BH/arrow combination whose FERRULE survives the angle-iron test intact and straight. I do not claim that the angle iron mimics any kind of bone on any kind of animal. It is merely a test that forces the BH out of the line-of flight to stress the ferrule. I think that many BHs and arrows will survive square impact onto plywood (or even cinder-block.) 

I think that many arrows/BH will survive square impact with plywood or even cinder blocks. It's what happens when the tip skips on bone that interests me.

My motivation is that of 24 arrows I shot into cape buff carcases in 2006, several of them bent at the ferrule. (These were Carbon Tech Rhino Safari shafts with steel adapters and Grizzly tips at 96 ft-lbs KE) 

What setup do you use that gets 2" of penetration on plywood?


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## Longbow42

"What setup do you use that gets 2" of penetration on plywood?"

I have a long DL, 32.5" and use arrows in the 550 range, plus my bow is pretty fast. I used two pieces of 1" plywood, but allowed some space in between. My BH was a VPA Terminator (3 blade).

That makes sense about the ferrule strength test. I have some new VAPs with SS inserts/outserts. I wonder how they would hold up. The VAP is coming out in a 250 spine this month.


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## Don_Go

Longbow42 said:


> "What setup do you use that gets 2" of penetration on plywood?"
> 
> I have a long DL, 32.5" and use arrows in the 550 range, plus my bow is pretty fast. I used two pieces of 1" plywood, but allowed some space in between. My BH was a VPA Terminator (3 blade).
> 
> That makes sense about the ferrule strength test. I have some new VAPs with SS inserts/outserts. I wonder how they would hold up. The VAP is coming out in a 250 spine this month.


When you say 2" penetration do you mean the tip of the BH comes out the back of the plywood, or does the whole BH blow completely through? Either way is pretty impressive for a 3-blade.


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## Longbow42

Don_Go said:


> When you say 2" penetration do you mean the tip of the BH comes out the back of the plywood, or does the whole BH blow completely through? Either way is pretty impressive for a 3-blade.


The BH usually sticks out completely through the back of the second board, not always but usually.


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## rayzor43

Check out Andy Ivy's Youtube tests of the 2 blade Penetrator. Also Gary Logsdon's tests posted on Tradgang and Leatherwall when we initially released them. If I recall correctly he tested both 250s and 300s.


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## piggy

I Used Ashby's Broadheads on a recent water Buffalo hunt and had the same issues with the broadhead snapping, infact of the 6 shots into water buffalo 5 of the 6 broadheads failed when impacting the entrance rib!
I changed to the 250grn VPA broadhead on the same shaft and same bow and took a buff.

Here are some of the broadheads which snapped the shaft is where one snapped at the ferule


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## piggy

Forgot to mention gear used was a 58# recurve bow and 850grn arrow


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## Don_Go

Yikes! Thanks for posting.


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## Don_Go

I drilled out the VPA Penetrator and it still spins true. Only damage is some scratches where my drill got against it.

I ordered some 300 grain single-bevel Steelforce heads from 3Rivers. Did not even know they existed. More to follow.


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## John Wayne

have you looked at any of the Aboyer heads? i have been very inpressed with there heads for the 2 years that i have shot them. They have a couple that are either screw on or glue on. and they do have some titanim adapters for the glue in. just a thought. 

www.abowyer.com


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## John Wayne

never mind, i just saw that you had shot the Brown bear head. sorry not sure how i missed that. 

Levi


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## JCHB

*Ashby 315 failures*

I was shocked to see the pics of the Ashby failures from the Aus buff hunt. I'm booked on an elephant hunt in August and my current setup is a Easton Dangerous Game 250 + 110gr insert + epoxy threaded bar insert + 5 inch feathers + Ashby 315. Total weight 1100gr. This lot flies out of a Bowtech Tribute at 93lbs.
I want to know what comment has been offered by the manufacturers of the Ashby heads and if this was just a bad batch. Snapping like that on an animal is just not acceptable. Does anyone have more information?
JCHB


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## Don_Go

I'm in the same boat as you, except I'm booked for a Cape Buff in August. 

The tips breaking is very bad, but the ferrule breaking on entry from a trad bow and 850 grain arrow is very, very bad.

When Ashby himself tested the prototype heads he had one chip on a water buffalo, and stated that the batch he had was over-hardened. I have seen additional isolated comments about ferrule failures. When I asked ABS about those reports I was told that ABS' position was that the failures occurred in the death throes.

Piggy is not one of the world's great communicators, but he told me that ABS had been notified of his situation with no response. I will email ABS a copy of Piggy's post and see what they say.

I have 20 of these heads, and would sell them pretty cheap right now!


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## Don_Go

Does anyone know how the Steelforce 300 gr DGR head is assembled? 










Blake of Steelforce actually talked to me on the phone. He seemed to be one heck of nice guy, and a true "broadhead geek." He stated that the ferrule was stainless steel and that the head was not held on by a screw and clamped tighter on impact. After looking at the pic I realize I should have asked what did hold the blade in!


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## JCHB

Don
I would also like to know what holds the blade in. Please share any info you get. I passed on the Steel Force because I liked the idea of the one piece Ashby and was prepared to pay the (considerable) price. Now, if ABS don't come up clean, I may have to go back to the Steel Force camp. I have 12 Ashby's in my archery box right now.
JCHB


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## henro

Cool read...


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## Don_Go

JCHB said:


> Don
> I would also like to know what holds the blade in. Please share any info you get. I passed on the Steel Force because I liked the idea of the one piece Ashby and was prepared to pay the (considerable) price. Now, if ABS don't come up clean, I may have to go back to the Steel Force camp. I have 12 Ashby's in my archery box right now.
> JCHB


JCHB I have 3 of the Steelforce on order. Will test them ASAP.

Can you please get an accurate measure of the OD of your DG 250 FMJs? I need that for a project.

Don


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## henro

From everything I've been reading and seen on here, the quality and durability of any GrizzlyStik heads seems to be terrible? I'm building a high FOC setup myself and will be trying out the new Steelforce 145gr Titanium 2-Blade single bevels as soon as they're released. I was told it would be sometime later this month. My arrow build is here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182


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## rayzor43

If the blade is of a different material from the ferrule,it appears head is likely swaged together.


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## rayzor43

Missed the part about the impact clamp. Pretty much same.


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## piggy

For all of you who want to know about the Ashby's feel free to email or PM me. For what's it worth they will not even replace the heads which failed on me  (no warranty on broadheads they tell me)
I don't want to post anything that may cause this post to be removed or potential issues for the administrators.
My personal opinion is not to use these heads on any large game.
I am planning on going back again this year for Buffalo and after using and seeing how the 250grn and 150grn ( used by the compound boys) VPA performed I will be looking at their 300grn 2 blade for my next trip.


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## piggy

Don_Go said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, except I'm booked for a Cape Buff in August.
> 
> 
> 
> Piggy is not one of the world's great communicators, but he told me that ABS had been notified of his situation with no response. I will email ABS a copy of Piggy's post and see what they say.


Initially I had discussions with them but they have stopped responding I never got replies from my last emails.
I do not want to comment too much as they should have a right to reply.


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## JCHB

Don
I will send you the measurement of the Dangerous Game Shafts ASAP, just need to get a new battery for my vernier. In terms of broadheads "chipping" I have had this with the original profile German Kinetics 150gr. The arrow punched the offside rib of a giraffe and chipped but it did not stop the beast going down with one shaft. I have a pic but need someone clever to tell me how to upload/download it.
Piggy, I understand why you are hesitant to post but this is the type of info the bowhunting community needs. Your pictures tell a story and I'm shocked ABS do not see them as a problem. I cannot afford for that to happen on my elephant hunt for both financial and saftey reasons. Ashby heads are promoted and priced as the ultimate big game head. I for one have spent my money based on the information provided by ABS. If there is a problem with a batch, they owe it to their customers to step up to the plate and come clean.
JCHB


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## JCHB

Don
I've just been to the VPA website and checked out their penetrator range. The 300gr looks a dead-ringer for the Ashby. It has the homogenous, single piece of steel construction that I prefer. Do you know what they cost and where to get them? (preferably an online site) Would they not be an answer to your Ashby worries?
JCHB


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## Don_Go

JCHB,

The VPA Penetrators are double-bevel sharpened, and I like the single-bevel for DG. The Penetrators are far and away the best double-bevel head I know of. I ordered the ones I tested from [email protected]. Ray has said they will add a single-bevel some day, but I don't know the schedule. 

The original German Kinetics are very high quality double bevels as well, but the monolithic Penetrators beat them for ultimate toughness in my opinion.

ABS called me last night in response to my forwarding piggy's post to them and offered to let me return the Ashby heads or replace them with new production at my option. You can't get better support than that. I told him I'd make up my mind very soon. I am leaning towards sending them back for refund right now. Like piggy I'll let ABS speak for themselves as to the rest. They obviously believe in and support their product.


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## JCHB

Don
Thanks for the info on VPA's. I agree that single bevel is the way to go. The diameter of the Dangerous game Easton is 7.38mm. How do you get to post the broadhead photo's in your posts? I would like to post the photo of the German Kinetic. I have it as a jpeg right now.
JCHB


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## Don_Go

I put the photo on photobucket.com (free), then copy the link under the photo into your clipboard and paste it in a REPLY on this forum. You can see how one looks by hitting the QUOTE button on any post with a photo.


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## Don_Go

Here's a disassembled SteelForce 300 grain single-bevel broadhead. The fit and finish is very good. There is no discernible slop in the ferrule-to-blade fit. The locking ring turns to hold the blade in. I hope to test it next week - busy this week. 

The tanto tip has flats facing the direection of travel, I'd be tempted to shape it to a cut on contact tanto - but I will test it as is first.


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## piggy

Don_go, 

Take your money and run!!


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## Don_Go

piggy said:


> Don_go,
> 
> Take your money and run!!


piggy, can you answer a few questions for me? Please don't be offended, but you've left a whole lot of details out so far. Please don't take this wrong, I'd just like to fill in some holes in my mental picture. 

How did you recover the arrows if they were stuck in a buff? 

Where's the head that the ferrule broke on? 

I think once you said you shot 6 Ashby heads. What happened to the 6th head?

Thanks,
Don


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## SDHNTR

Wow! All I know is that I have seen and experienced enough on my own. If I was going on a big DG hunt, VPA's I would be shooting, without question. SOLID MACHINED STEEL baby! It doesn't take a degree in metalurgy to realize the superiority of that type of construction.


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## JCHB

SDHNTR said:


> Wow! All I know is that I have seen and experienced enough on my own. If I was going on a big DG hunt, VPA's I would be shooting, without question. SOLID MACHINED STEEL baby! It doesn't take a degree in metalurgy to realize the superiority of that type of construction.


Great broadheads, no doubt, but superior penetration on the largest of beasts is best achieved via a single bevel edge. VPA reckon they should have some ready in around 2 months time.
JCHB


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## arrowhead125

I read these posts from time to time on archery talk, but never registered before now as I never felt the need until now. I had some issues with some of the heads chipping at the tip and inquired with ABS - they replaced them at no charge - but I still had enough penetration to split ribs on entry and exit and got my animals. They also informed me they have addressed the steel issue - myself, along with my clients that I build arrows for, have tested them. I shot a water buffalo in December, split ribs on entry and exit, no broadhead issues. My friend shot two water buffalo late 2011 - no issues. These heads will be traveling to Tanzania in September for elephant and cape buffalo. No worries here.


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## piggy

arrowhead125, I wish you the best of luck for your hunt and keep us informed how you go.

Cheers


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## paulgeorges

Tuffhead 300 gr + 125 gr adapter or 50 gr titanium adapter 

Great broadhead for buffalo


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## Don_Go

paulgeorges said:


> Tuffhead 300 gr + 125 gr adapter or 50 gr titanium adapter
> 
> Great broadhead for buffalo


Those Tuffheads look great, but last time I used trad heads I had adapter failures. Where did you get the titanium adapter? Who makes it? 

Thanks!


----------



## paulgeorges

Don_Go said:


> Those Tuffheads look great, but last time I used trad heads I had adapter failures. Where did you get the titanium adapter? Who makes it?
> 
> Thanks!


No problem with titanium adapter

Aboywer 

http://www.abowyer.com/id118.html


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## Don_Go

Did some more testing today, but got interrupted before I was through.










It was a bad day for blow-throughs. I was explaining the superiority of the single bevel to a guy at the range, when the single-bevel 300 grain SteelForce failed to blow through the 5/8" OSB. I then fired an ABS Ashby and an Abowyer Brown Bear at the OSB. These heads had blown through easily before, but were stopped today. The best explanation I can come up with is that the OSB was damp from the leaking camp on my truck. The Abowyer was the only one that made it to the arrow. It looked like the Abowyer penetration was stopped by the oversized footer on my test arrows. The footer left a definite impression on the OSB. 

ABS 315 grain Ashby penetration:








The Ashby had some chipping on one edge about halfway back that was originally masked by the splinters.

SteelForce 300 grain single bevel:








The SteelForce edge was very slightly burred along its full length. Nothing that 2-3 strokes on a stone wouldn't fix.

Abowyer 300 grain single bevel:








The edge of the Abowyer head was essentially untouched by its third trip through the OSB.

Then I fired a 180 grain original GK-Silver Flame at the OSB, and it blew through, in spite of being 120/135 grains lighter! 









The GK penetrated in spite of hitting the previously embedded SteelForce on the way in. The edge of the GK was damaged, but the ferrule was still true. 









In the spirit of fairness I fired the GK again at a clean spot in the OSB. It also blew through, even with the damaged edge. I have no explanation for why the GK performed so well - but I like it! It'll tip my elk arrow this year. 

I then fired the GK at the angle iron. The tip buried into the iron before breaking off. The arrow also broke at the back of the footer. A dimple in the back edge of the aluminum footer makes me think the arrow broke here due to hitting the side of the angle iron as has happened before. But it could be that the shaft actually flexed enough to break there without help. If so it'd be the first arrow that broke without help. The ferrule appears to still be straight, even though the head was well and truly trashed.









To DO: trash a VPA, an Abowyer and SteelForce on the angle iron.


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## Don_Go

I forgot to mention that the ABS folks let me return the undamaged ASHBY heads and refunded my money. You can't ask for better behavior than that from a vendor.

Garret said that they have a new video taken with the prototypes of their new production Ashby heads. He offered to let me swap the old heads for new production, but I declined. 

I am a bit curious why there was no video of their old production heads. The new video is very impressive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrpfLol20_Y&feature=youtu.be


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## JCHB

*300 gr abowyer?*

Don
Can you please re-cap on the construction of the 300gr Abowyer? My understanding is that it is a trad head with an epoxied insert. Is that right?
JB


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## paulgeorges

JCHB said:


> Don
> Can you please re-cap on the construction of the 300gr Abowyer? My understanding is that it is a trad head with an epoxied insert. Is that right?
> JB


That s right , it is a glue on broadhead with adapter . Aboywer make only one screw on broadhead with the brown bear but the weight is only 260 grains .

Perhaps a glue on brown bear (175 grains ) + adapter (125 grains )


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## Don_Go

JCHB said:


> Don
> Can you please re-cap on the construction of the 300gr Abowyer? My understanding is that it is a trad head with an epoxied insert. Is that right?
> JB


Nope, the Abowyer Carbon Brown Bear is an .072" x 2.5" x 1.125" blade, and a 1.25" x 0.3125" conical welded in insert. Very good metal that holds an edge, and reasonably tough. Mine weigh 270 grains, they are advertised as 260. The only issue is they tend to have a bit more runout than the one-piece designs. I'd use them on brown bear with large helical fletches.

http://abowyer.com/abowyer_carbon_screw_on_brown_bear.html


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## Don_Go

*Carbon shafts can look fine, but be internally damaged*

Since the range was busy yesterday I could not make any sparks, so I tried to see why my groups had opened up.

As you all know I have been using Axis ST 300s with a 2.5" footer on a 28.5" arrow that has a 100 grain brass insert and heads between 270 - 315 grain. At first they checked out as slightly under spined for the job. (Software said they were under-spined as well.) Paper tuning showed that there was about 1/2 inch of random-oriented flex at 6 feet. I have been abusing the crap out of these arrows. 

After a few weeks of severe abuse the arrows are whole, and pass a hand flex test easily, but the dynamic spine is very poor and repeatable. I can get 4" tears that index with rotating the three-fletch 120 degrees. New Axis ST 300 arrows work about like before and new GT Kinetic Pro 200s give bullet holes. (I've been saving the GT200KPs for the real hunt. So it's the arrows that have changed from the abuse, not the bow. I will try to see if I can devise a static spine test to show the changes.

At any rate, from now on I'll put any mistreated arrows in the practice bucket. And I will be wearing my armguard faithfully!


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## paulgeorges

Don_Go said:


> Nope, the Abowyer Carbon Brown Bear is an .072" x 2.5" x 1.125" blade, and a 1.25" x 0.3125" conical welded in insert. Very good metal that holds an edge, and reasonably tough. Mine weigh 270 grains, they are advertised as 260. The only issue is they tend to have a bit more runout than the one-piece designs. I'd use them on brown bear with large helical fletches.
> 
> http://abowyer.com/abowyer_carbon_screw_on_brown_bear.html





A tuffhead 350 ( 50 grains adapter titanium ) compare with the "little" aboywer brown bear 260 grs 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Don_Go

I have been avoiding any glue-in adapter heads because I always had trouble getting them to spin true, but I will have to get a couple of the Tuffheads to trash!

I just looked and did not see a 350 grain Tuffhead. Was that with the adapter weight added?


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## Don_Go

WooHooo!

I've found a broadhead manufacturer to make my custom broadhead.










More to come in a few weeks!


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## JCHB

C'mon Don
SPILL THE BEANS!!!!!
JCHB


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## Don_Go

*I call it "The Dauntless"*

No can do, JCHB. The manufacturer has added a few wrinkles of his own, and has sworn me to silence on blade details until he gets any patent and trademark stuff done. They don't let any grass grow under their feet, so I am expecting the finished product around the end of the month. The head should be around 275 grains and the insert/footer around 100 grains. The ID of the broadhead internal ferrule will be .3135 so that any Axis ST/GoldTip Kinetic-sized arrow can be externally footed with a 20xx aluminum arrow to mate. My estimates are that this internal ferrule design yields an assembly about 4x stronger than the normal external ferrule. To say that I am excited is an understatement!

The cone on the head that forms the ferrule reaches .375 diameter about half an inch forward of the rear face. This makes the taper a little steeper/fatter than other designs, but I think the ultimate strength is worth it. I just cannot picture this thing breaking on anything less than my angle iron.

The .3135 ferrule ID allows you to make total arrow weights from 550 to 1250 grains (including the head), with spines from 400 to 100. I don't pretend to know what bow could shoot this head at 400 spine! 

This lets the trad guys use it with a lighter arrow and an aluminum insert for 550 gr arrows that reach the true 30% ultra extreme FOC that was Ashby's goal. 

My Cape Buff arrow will probably be a Gold Tip Big Game 200 Kinetic Pro with a short 2014 external footer, and come in around 750 grains and 27% FOC. The 200 spine arrow with external footer is just barely adequate for my 73# 101st Airborne, according to pjwatson05, who ran some calculations for me.

For all you elephant hunters, you could full-length sleeve the GTBG200KP with a 2014, add the 8 GPI weight tube from threerivers and get a 1250 grain arrow with an FOC of 15%, and a spine sufficient even for a 100 pound compound bow. (You could even look for some sort of 'weight tube' that adds to the spine.)

You could probably find some sort of metal tape to "foot" an FMJ DG 250 out to fit, but I don't think the spine would be sufficient even for my 73# 101st Airborne. If this catches on, maybe Easton will make a 150 spine FMJ with a .3125 OD.

I am NOT going to be any kind of partner/employee/part-owner in this. I make nothing on the deal, and paid full price (plus development cost) to buy mine. It took some stubborn-ness on my part to get them made. If you are interested in buying any of these after you see them you will have to wait and ask the manufacturer. I am not going to get into the middle of this. If anybody wants to "pay me back" for getting the design in play, fund the development of the custom 275 gr practice head. My wallet is skinny!


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## TimmyZ7

ttt


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## Don_Go

I played with Stu's arrow calculator and it says that the Dauntless broadhead would be properly spined for a 53# trad bow using an Axis ST 340 at a BOP of 29.25 with a normal aluminum HIT insert with a 1/2" set screw forming a light-weight Dauntless internal footer and a 2.5" external footer made from a 2016 Easton aluminum arrow.

The three layers formed by the external footer/carbon shaft/internal footer will extend about 1/2" into the broadhead, making a very strong assembly.

I forgot to weigh the insert/set screw before I glued it in. 

In a few weeks I hope to show you a pic of the broadhead. Right now here's the business end of the assembled shaft.










If you want more weight, you could do the same thing with a brass 100 grain insert from threerivers. For more strength and weight you could use a steel Dauntless internal footer.

I wish I knew how to use Stu's calculator for my compound bows.


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## TimmyZ7

Which of your broadheads tested revealed extremely lethal characteristics as far as tunneling instead of slicing? I am asking because I have been looking really hard into a single bevel two blade for the tunneled wound channel. I am not a fan of the slivers that typically come from a double edged 2 blade. I appreciate any advice.


----------



## Don_Go

I have been looking more at reducing the risk of broadhead ferrule failure than the cutting effects of the broadhead. My thought is that for the arrow to have a chance at being lethal it first has to maintain its mechanical integrity. I am also looking at shooting some tough-boned critters so I don't know how generally applicable my "best broadhead" would be for your situation. 

Having said that, I do think that single-bevel blades tend to do the best job when bone is hit. They do tend to crack and splinter the bone, but I think that's a good thing. 

What are you hunting?


----------



## Don_Go

I checked the static spine on the arrows I have in the house. My setup has a 2.15# weight rather than the 1.98# weight called for. So my deflection measurements are not exactly the measured spine, but they are close.

My Axis ST 340 measure .340+/-.005 as I spin them.
If I add a 2.5" 2020 footer, the spine only improves to .333

My Axis ST 300 arrows measure .310 +/- .005
If a 2.5" footer improved it, it was in the measurement noise.

My Gold Tip 200 Kinetic Pros measured .220 +/-.002
The 2.5" footer maybe improved it to .215.

I have read that these footers help the dynamic spine a lot. Can anybody explain the relationship between dynamic spine and static spine?


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## Longbow42

I would think that a footer would weaken the spine, not increase it as it adds weight up front. You would need to add weight in the back in order to increase the dynamic spine.


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## Don_Go

You are right that simply adding weight up front will weaken the dynamic spine, but adding the extra external layer of aluminum stiffens the arrow for that length, and so improves both the dynamic spine and the static spine. Stu's calculator shows the increase in dynamic spine of the arrow, but does not show the static spine at all. 

Stu's calc shows that my GTBG200KPs with the 275 gr Dauntless head and 100 grain steel insert has a dynamic spine of 84# without an aluminum external footer. The dynamic spine increases to 91# with a 2.5"/25 gr external 2014 footer, and increases to 141# with a 6"/60 grain external 2014 footer. 

I have no idea what sort of dynamic spine my 73# 101st Airborne would need. I suspect that it's a whole lot higher than 73#, but I don't know if it requires twice as much. Any help appreciated!


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## TimmyZ7

Deer and Elk sized game. I have yet to venture to Africa or New Zealand for some really big game but like the idea of building a versatile f.o.c. setup that can produce on multiple pursuits.


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## Don_Go

Timmy,

It's hard to use the same arrow on deer/elk and cape buffalo or bigger game. It is possible to use the same arrow/head on deer/elk/black bear. I would tend to go bigger/heavier on brown/grizzly or moose.

For a 60-70# compound I like the Axis ST/Gold Tip Kinetic sized arrows with 100/125 gr heads and short aluminum footers for deer/bear/elk. After the testing shown above I would look hard at the German Kinetic or VPA heads for general use. They are expensive, but worth it. I would try for total arrow weight from 425-500 grains.

If you are shooting a trad bow, I'd use the same general setup, but go to the 147-180 grain heads and go up to 550 for a minimum total arrow weight. 

But telling a man what arrow/head to use is almost as useful as telling him what woman to marry.


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## Longbow42

I get great performance out of a 200 spine Kinetic with a 50 grain brass Hit. My finished arrow weighs 535. I can shoot that bare shaft at 20 yds and get really close to a perfect bullet hole through paper. My light arrow is the Quest Powerpunch at 465. That arrow also flies great, but is tapered.


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## Don_Go

Longbow,

Do you use that for the trad bow, or the compound? What weight head?


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## Don_Go

I had an expensive trip to the range today.

Every arrow I shot broke when it hit the angle iron/target/skin that I had set up. These arrows all had a single 2016 aluminum footer 2.5" long on them, to match the common ferrule diameter.

I made a frame and stretched an old towel over it and placed that 6 inches from the target. Then I taped the angle iron to the target. The idea was that the towel would act like the skin of a critter and keep the shaft from slapping the angle iron. This did not work so well...

The first shot was the Abowyer Brown Bear (mine weigh 270 grains.) The head hit the iron and skidded off as always. The head hit so that bending force was in the plane of the blade - the blade is hardest to bend this way. The blade bowed very slightly and the ferrule bent at the back of the broadhead. The shaft broke about 9" back of the head, where it slapped the iron. There are several scrape marks on the shaft where it slid along the edge. The head buried about 8" into the Black Hole target. The Abowyer head behaved very well in this test.









The next head tested was the SteelForce 300 gr single-bevel. This head came off the ferrule, inside the target. It came off right through the locking ring. Penetration into the target was about 4 inches. The ferrule was bent at a severe angle. The shaft and footer were cracked longitudinally.








The last half inch of the SteelForce tip curled.









The VPA 300 grain Penetrator also curled at the tip. (About the last .7 inches.) 








(The shiny tracks on the blade are where I drilled the head out of the OSB in a previous test.) The curve in the head caused a curving track in the target. The head penetrated 10 inches into the target before the shaft broke off due to the sideways pressure. The body of the ferrule is still straight, but the threads broke off. This is where the shaft broke as well. This is the first total failure of one of these footed shafts. The forces due to the curving path must have been tremendous - the head wound up travelling at right angles to the flight path. I was very impressed that the ferrule did not bend. I suspect very strongly that the threads broke after the reinforced shaft gave up the ghost.








You can see in the photo that the end of the shaft essentially disentegrated: there was aluminum and carbon fiber shrapnel in the "wound channel." The head almost exited the side of the target.

Add up the cost of the shafts, the heads and the target, and it was an expensive day!

All in all I was impressed with the metallurgy of both the Abowyer and VPA heads.


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## TimmyZ7

Hey Don thanks for the reply. I was building an arrow that maintained enough integrity with high enough F.O.C to blow through two hog shoulders so that I could utilize it for hog, Elk, Whitetail and bear. This is my current pursuit. I have spent tons of time on OT2 and getting these stats out of my setup; 

PSE 2012 Dream Season Evo 72lbs 28.5" DL + D-loop, G5 Titanium Peep @ 9.8grs.

Victory Vap .250 V1
Velocity: 259.3
GRS/LB: 7.553
F.O.C: 20.21%
K.E.: 81.16

VAP .250: 9.8gpi x 27" = 264.6grs.
Insert: Stainless Steel 92grs.
Nock: Nocturnal G nock 12.8grs.
Fusion 2" x 3 vanes: 21 grs.
Wrap: 3.1grs.
Broadhead 150grs. two blade (RFA Razorhawk is top choice right now)
Total Weight: 543.5grs. 

What are your thoughts?


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## Don_Go

I think you'd better pick a different arrow. It does not matter how good the shaft is if you cannot connect it well to the broadhead. Everything I've read from people using them here says those weird adapters (even the SS) tend to bend and break when hitting bone. There's one arrowhead out there that uses "Deep Six" technology that might let that shaft survive - but it's a three-blade which I would not try on two hog shoulders.

I like that weight for an all-duty North American arrow.

In that weight range I'd look at an Axis ST or GoldTip Kinetic type shaft with .265-.288 OD and .204 ID. These, with a 2.5" external aluminum 20xx footer have been shown to be very hardy shafts. I'd use a VPA Penetrator or German-Kinetics Silver Flame 2 blade broadhead, as these have been shown to be very tough also. There are 50/ and 75 grain inserts available from Easton, and 100 grain inserts available from ThreeRivers that give you a lot of choices in trading off broadhead weight vs overall weight. It takes something like my angle-iron target to stress these footed shafts to the point of failure, so don't be fooled by the carnage shown in this thread. This is a very tough, survivable assembly at a reasonable weight. Working these combos will give you FOC of 20-23%.

I have tried out the OT2 software, and don't understand how they link the separate pages together. But it appears that if you lump the footer/head/insert weight together and use just the exposed shaft length on the spine calculation page, then you might get reasonable spine prediction for this setup. (Don't forget to add in the weight of the shaft under the footer section.)

Like I said earlier, giving advice on archery equipment is like telling a man who to marry -but maybe it gives you more to consider.


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## John Wayne

On the Gold tip kenitics shafts. what sizes of the Alumin shafts fit it? I have some that fit the FMJ .300 but the Gold tip are just a hair biger. mine are the 200 spine. 

Once upon a time i did some trading with a guy on here and ended up with some brass tubes that will fit the FMJ DG. these also fit the Gold tips good. the brass weights in at about 150g for a 1.75" to 2" section. I have not shot an arrow with this on there yet as i was also looking to make a footer out of the alumin shafts. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

The GTBG200KP shafts I have can be footed with some 2014 Eclipse shafts I have, but another archer could not get 2014s to work. He sent me some cutoffs and my 2014s would have worked on his shafts - barely. The published diameter of the GTBG200KP is .288, which means a 2012 is the best fit on paper. But I'd try a 2014 first, then a 2013. It seems this is a situation where the slight variation between production runs is important. 

You are not using the GT outserts are you? They looked as bad as the VAP outserts to me.

What size aluminum shaft fits your FMJ300s?


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## John Wayne

Don go, i will look when i get home. i have used the outserts on the GT but only because they were already glued in when i got the arrows. i will be swithing these out as i go. using the axis inserts in either alum. or brass. 

I wil check on shafts when i get home. I was thinking 2014 or 2015 but i am not sure. 

Levi


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## TimmyZ7

Hey Don, any experience with the Arrow Dynamics or Quest line up of arrows?


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## John Wayne

Don Go, the 2018 fit my FMJ 300. They are tight but still have plenty of room for glue. I have used these on several arrows and they fit good.


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## Don_Go

My first response is missing. I apologize if this doubles up.

Timmy, I don't know those arrows. I like the notion of tapered shafts. I always wonder if they are made like the Grizzly from ABS. On that shaft the ID and OD tapers, but the wall thickness is constant. This does give a very slight FOC advantage, but not much. The Grizzlies I tried several years back had a bare-shaft balance point about 0.5" forward of the center. After all the FOC hype I was really disappointed. Combine that with the limited insert availability, and it just was not worth it to me. There is an advantage in penetration, but I did not think it was worth the hassle. Those Grizzlies looked tough, though. reminded me of golf club shafts. As I say I don't know if the Quest and Arrow Dynamics shafts have that constant wall thickness, but production would be tough any other way.

Thanks, JW, a footed FMJ sounds like a very tough shaft. How long of a footer do you use? The 220 grain total tip weight in your sig sounds awfully heavy for a 300 spine shaft and a 77# compound unless the footer is pretty long. I have no experience with that shaft, I just used Stu's calculator - and I'm not sure I'm using it right! According to that I'd try a 5 or 6 inch footer.


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## Don_Go

re-subscribe: lost it somehow


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## John Wayne

I have a few of the Quest HD shafts. they dont seem as stiff as there spine rating. they do give quite an big jump in FOC based on the design. But i just could not get them to shot as well as the FMJ. 

Don Go. I have been using about 1" footer on the FMJ. but there is also the 100grain brass insert that is about 2.5" long on the inside. They are on the weak side but still fly good. With the short silverflames they seem to shoot just fine. but when i use the longer abowyer and just the alumin inserts they are less accuret and seem to be very touchy when shooting. So i have decided to use the FMJ for the silverflames and the gold tip kenitcs 200's for the larger abowers. The abowyes really add a lot of weight to the front, where as when i was using the brass inserts get some weight it helped stiffen the shaft enough to handle the load fine. 

I have started looking at putting a footer on both the GTDG200k and the FMJ300's. this way i can re-adjust the rest to shot both as i would have to drop the rest down the width of the sleeve to keep them sitting straight. right now i can still shot both arrows with out adjusting the rest. so if i add 3-5" footer to one i want to add it to the other so that i can still shot both as i carry both arrow when i hunt. 

I have also thought about


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## John Wayne

I have a few of the Quest HD shafts. they dont seem as stiff as there spine rating. they do give quite an big jump in FOC based on the design. But i just could not get them to shot as well as the FMJ. 

Don Go. I have been using about 1" footer on the FMJ. but there is also the 100grain brass insert that is about 2.5" long on the inside. They are on the weak side but still fly good. With the short silverflames they seem to shoot just fine. but when i use the longer abowyer and just the alumin inserts they are less accuret and seem to be very touchy when shooting. So i have decided to use the FMJ for the silverflames and the gold tip kenitcs 200's for the larger abowers. The abowyes really add a lot of weight to the front, where as when i was using the brass inserts get some weight it helped stiffen the shaft enough to handle the load fine. 

I have started looking at putting a footer on both the GTDG200k and the FMJ300's. this way i can re-adjust the rest to shot both as i would have to drop the rest down the width of the sleeve to keep them sitting straight. right now i can still shot both arrows with out adjusting the rest. so if i add 3-5" footer to one i want to add it to the other so that i can still shot both as i carry both arrow when i hunt. 

I have also thought about seeing if i could have a small pices of steel derilled and taped to act as an internal footer. 


Levi


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## Don_Go

That all makes sense to me, Levi. 

You carry both arrows in case you see pig while hunting deer?


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## John Wayne

i carry both depending on where i am hunting and what mood i am in today. but mainly so that i can have a few different broadheads in the quiver at the same time. and it takes the .200 to get the abowyers to fly good. and yes on the pigs, thou i usually just use which ever arrow loaded when i see a pig. most morning i will just take which ever i feel like today. usually i start with the silverflames early in the year, then after i have meat in the freezer i will try a few different heads. This year i took a buck and pig with teh silver flames. then a small buck with teh abowyer whitetail. 

Thank for the arrow sizes. i will see if i can find some 2012,2013, and 2014 shafts. 

sorry about the triple post. internet slowed down and i hit the post reply butten a few too many times.


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## Don_Go

Could you find the balance point on the bare Quest shafts (or give, length, fletch and insert weight) and tell us how far forward of center it is? Ever since I tried the Grizzly shafts I am a bit skeptical.


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## John Wayne

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Product.aspx?ProductId=308

These may be something that you want to look at. i just saw them today but have not looked into them much. I will get some numbers on the quest arrows soon. all mine are cut to 26.75 but it can get all of the weights. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

I doubt I will spend any money to try those new ABS arrows. I suspect they still have a constant wall thickness, which greatly limits any FOC benefit. The taper does help penetration a bit, though.


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## Whitey375

Just reading and thinking about footing shafts, due to the extra stiffness the footing imparts, and running said combo through one of the programs, wouldn't it effectively shorten the length of the shaft? Ex: a 3" footer on a 30" arrow would have the same effect on spine as shooting a 27" arrow.
Or I may be off base?
For lighter poundage bows, the Carbon Tech Panther is a tapered shaft, and spine is affected depending on which end you cut, .340 is as stiff as it goes though. I built some that shot great at 440gr and nearly 17% FOC.


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## John Wayne

******, that is my understanding of have it works. there may not be a direct relation ship between the 3" foot and not having the 3" at all, a 30" arrow with a 3" footer vs a 27" arrow. the footer will still flex some but should be a lot less. But again i do not know the exact ratio. but for all intents and purposes you should be able to start with that assumption and then do some testing. 

Don go, I have not forgot about checking the Quest arrow. should be able to this weekend. 

After looking around my bow area i do not have any of the 2014,13, or 12. Does anybody have any they are willing to sell or send me for shipping? I could go buy a half dozen but would like to see if i like them first. looking for 1 arrow or at least 10 to 12" so i can try a longer footer. 

i am hoping in june or July to be done building our house and moved in. that shoud give me some time to play with different footing such. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

I've got a bit of 2013 and 2012 I can send, but I am short of 2014 myself. I'm away from home for the next few days, will check when I get back. Send me a PM.


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## Don_Go

Levi,

I'm back home, now. I can send you some very short lengths (like 2.5 inches) to help you determine what fits your shafts, but I don't have any extra shafts.

Be forewarned that even if a short section of my 2014 fits your shafts, when you order new shafts they may be just different enough to not fit. I sent out some before, and that's what happened. My GTBG200KP arrows measure .282" even though the book value is .288". The other cutoffs I have (from another archer) measure .284" which means that my 2014 shafts are a friction fit on his cutoffs. He ordered 2014s and they would not fit. 

On my bow setup I have to choose between a short footer of 2.5" or less, or one of 6" or more. Otherwise the footer drags across the rest and clicks or even pulls the arrow off the string. My brass inserts are 1.8" long, and glue into the shafts another .45", so a 2.5" footer extends just far enough beyond the brass to ease the transition from flexible to rigid. Chamfer the inside and the outside of the back of the footer to help prevent drag and stress risers.


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## Don_Go

:thumbs_up 

Wahoo!

Just got word that my broadheads are shipping tomorrow!

Just a few days to Christmas!


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## John Wayne

Be sure and post some pictures when you get these. i am waiting to see this idea played out. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

Don't worry. You will probably get tired of me extolling the virtues of the blasted thing!


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## Whitey375

http://www.synbone.ch/wEnglish/catalogue/index.php?navanchor=1010043 

Here you go Don.


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## Don_Go

Wow, it is expensive! I'll stick to cow bones.


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## John Wayne

Check with Hittingguru


he has a large list of alumin arrow that are i think around $2.50 each. great for cutting footing. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

Your samples of 2012/2013/2014 are in the mail. MIGHT make it by Sat.


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## Don_Go

Someone asked me about using the Victory VAP. The VAP is VERY small ID (.166), and at first glance would seem to need yet another custom adapter to fit the head to the Dauntless. The ID of those new arrows is so small it was hard for me to see how you could ever get them to work for heavy broadheads. The SS adapter made by Victory is known to fail easily. 

With enough work you could make a custom insert/outsert to get it to tie well to a Dauntless, but even the 250 spine is not enough by itself. It would then need a long external footer to get the spine high enough to support a 375 grain total BH + adapter weight.

So I did some homework. It looks like an 1816 external footer combined with a 2013 external footer would get the OD correct. The ID pretty much matches an 8-32 screw, so you could make it work without a custom insert if you wanted by cutting the head off an 8-32 cap screw (available up to 4" long), or a simple custom insert could be made by partially threading a .166 dia rod. The total 1816 external footer length would need to be about 8." The 2013 footer section could be less than an inch long, preserving as much as possible the slenderness of the shaft.


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## coiloil37

This might help with footings.


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## Don_Go

Thanks!


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## Don_Go

For the testing of my custom Dauntless broadhead see:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1730979&highlight=Dauntless


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## PFArchery

Has anyone looked at the new hard impact penetrator arrows, do you think they are really worth $165 a dozen?


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## Don_Go

Can you give me a link to the arrows you are talking about?

I'm paying that for the 200 spine Gold Tip kinetic Pros, that have the best straightness and weight specs.


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## PFArchery

Don_Go said:


> Can you give me a link to the arrows you are talking about?
> 
> I'm paying that for the 200 spine Gold Tip kinetic Pros, that have the best straightness and weight specs.


http://hardimpacttech.com/home.html


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## henro

Don_Go said:


> Someone asked me about using the Victory VAP. The VAP is VERY small ID (.166), and at first glance would seem to need yet another custom adapter to fit the head to the Dauntless. The ID of those new arrows is so small it was hard for me to see how you could ever get them to work for heavy broadheads. *The SS adapter made by Victory is known to fail easily. *
> 
> With enough work you could make a custom insert/outsert to get it to tie well to a Dauntless, but even the 250 spine is not enough by itself. It would then need a long external footer to get the spine high enough to support a 375 grain total BH + adapter weight.
> 
> So I did some homework. It looks like an 1816 external footer combined with a 2013 external footer would get the OD correct. The ID pretty much matches an 8-32 screw, so you could make it work without a custom insert if you wanted by cutting the head off an 8-32 cap screw (available up to 4" long), or a simple custom insert could be made by partially threading a .166 dia rod. The total 1816 external footer length would need to be about 8." The 2013 footer section could be less than an inch long, preserving as much as possible the slenderness of the shaft.


Where have you heard of the stainless steel inserts failing from Victory? I've only read of issues with the aluminums? Fwiw, I've shot my VAP250s with the 90gr SS inserts and 145gr fp's through my bag target and connecting with the concrete block wall behind it in my basement without issues to the inserts?


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## Don_Go

I have been told of numerous failures. (Do not know first hand.) Many arrows can withstand a straight hit into a steel wall. It's what happens when the arrow glances off that tells the tale of strength.


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## henro

Don_Go said:


> I have been told of numerous failures. (Do not know first hand.) Many arrows can withstand a straight hit into a steel wall. It's what happens when the arrow glances off that tells the tale of strength.


Are you sure it wasn't the aluminum inserts? Like I said I haven't heard of any issues with the stainless at all?


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## Don_Go

Yes, I was told specifically the SS outserts. YMMV, but I would test aggressively before trying it on big game. My personal experience says "approach with caution."

Good luck!


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## bambikiller

ttt


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## Don_Go

This tech discussion of the Dauntless broadhead continues here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1730979&highlight=Dauntless

Don


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## 260972

Chamfer the inside and the outside of the back of the footer to help prevent drag and stress risers.[/QUOTE]

Great post!!!

"Chamfer the inside???" The part of the footer that touches the carbon shaft so that it does not snap off????? I always thought you chamfer the outside of the footing only for easy arrow removal?


After trying the FMJ DG 250, ABS 175, and others...I just want to sleeve ICS Bowhunter/Powerflight 300. I have 5 dozen of them with the Abowyer 260 carbon steel heads (263-266gr for me) and 100 grain brass inserts. I have been shooting them full length with no spine issues so far, but would like to foot them. I saw a youtube video at... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYAU_sCIDLE 



 of this with these shafts and a 2117...so I ordered some 2117s today, but feel this might be to big of a foot compared to the small abowyer fuerele....as long as the furele is larger diameter than 21...then I will try to foot them. 

Looks like that GT 200 you have built is the way to go though as you could single foot with a 20 something shaft. The ABS head has a huge furele so you could foot with a large diameter aluminum as you did, but the abowyer seems like it has a narrow furele. Great thread...love your broadhead/insert idea!!! Abowyer said that with their lifetime warranty if I bent a head they would warranty them like Magnus and give me a new head!!! Did they ever tell this to you, or have you ever tried out their warranty? Thanks for the info...great post!


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## Don_Go

I did find that you need to chamfer both the inside and the outside at the back of the footer to keep the arrow from snapping at that point when bent.

When shooting a Cape Buffalo, a warranty does you no good at all. You can't call the arrow back, or try again. 

If you look up Dauntless broadhead on Google you will see what I took to Africa. I was successful on Cape Buff in TZ and grizzly in AK with the Dauntless. There's a (poor) video of the Grizzly.

The Abowyer is a pretty good head, but the ones I had were warped a bit where the ferrule was welded in. If I couldn't use my Dauntless heads I'd look at the 325 gr VPA single bevel. It is not well advertised, email them about it. The ferrule is tool steel and a bit stronger - in my opinion - than the Abowyer.


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## 260972

Don_Go said:


> I did find that you need to chamfer both the inside and the outside at the back of the footer to keep the arrow from snapping at that point when bent.
> 
> When shooting a Cape Buffalo, a warranty does you no good at all. You can't call the arrow back, or try again.
> 
> If you look up Dauntless broadhead on Google you will see what I took to Africa. I was successful on Cape Buff in TZ and grizzly in AK with the Dauntless. There's a (poor) video of the Grizzly.
> 
> The Abowyer is a pretty good head, but the ones I had were warped a bit where the ferrule was welded in. If I couldn't use my Dauntless heads I'd look at the 325 gr VPA single bevel. It is not well advertised, email them about it. The ferrule is tool steel and a bit stronger - in my opinion - than the Abowyer.



Thanks so much for the feedback!!! I will be sure to chamfer both the inside and outside of the 2117s.

I thought VPA just made single bevels?

Since you had the inception of the Dauntless then who owns the intellectual property??? You or VPA??? I would hope it is you, because the time stamps on the archery talk threads show it was your idea....or I hope you get VPA heads for free for life!!! Great idea, especially with the small diameter arrows.

Thanks for the footing tip, I will be sure to use it. I would also love to shoot a single bevel dauntless system with a 1.66 inside diameter small shaft like VAP, HT1, or injexion!


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## Don_Go

I'm not claiming any intellectual property on the Dauntless. I just wish they'd make some more. It'd be hard to make any money on such a specialty item. Not that many Cape Buffalo, elephant and hippo hunters. 

VPA made a run of 325 gr Single bevels with a normal ferrule. If I couldn't get the Dauntless, I'd use them for large dangerous game. 

If you could get a stiff enough arrow in .166, the Dauntless design would work very well indeed.


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## 260972

hyperflite said:


> Thanks so much for the feedback!!! I will be sure to chamfer both the inside and outside of the 2117s.
> 
> I thought VPA just made single bevels? I meant double bevels.
> 
> Since you had the inception of the Dauntless then who owns the intellectual property??? You or VPA??? I would hope it is you, because the time stamps on the archery talk threads show it was your idea....or I hope you get VPA heads for free for life!!! Great idea, especially with the small diameter arrows.
> 
> Thanks for the footing tip, I will be sure to use it. I would also love to shoot a single bevel dauntless system with a 1.66 inside diameter small shaft like VAP, HT1, or injexion!




I meant...I thought VPA only made double bevels.


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## 260972

Don_Go said:


> I'm not claiming any intellectual property on the Dauntless. I just wish they'd make some more. It'd be hard to make any money on such a specialty item. Not that many Cape Buffalo, elephant and hippo hunters.
> 
> VPA made a run of 325 gr Single bevels with a normal ferrule. If I couldn't get the Dauntless, I'd use them for large dangerous game.
> 
> If you could get a stiff enough arrow in .166, the Dauntless design would work very well indeed.



I will try to find some of these VPAs in the single bevel to test out. I looked into this earlier this summer and since VPA did not have any on their webpage...I bought some Alaska Bowhunting Supply and Abowyer Heads...to bad they don't offer the single bevels more publicly as it seems as though people would buy them from VPA just as much as they do from the current major single bevel manufacturers????

Thanks for the great insights, I loved the footage you have on youtube of the dauntless in action!!!!


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## Don_Go

The inside chamfer can be very small - just remove the sharp edge.

I've often wondered why VPA doesn't advertise them better.

email "Ray" to see if they have some. [email protected]


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## rayzor43

The Offset Single Bevel are available in 325gr and 300gr as of now. Left bevel only. There are several threads on the internet forums about them. Print advertising just doesn't give the return on investment to justify it especially on lower volume models.

We have only have seven packs of the latest run of 325s left and they are on sale for 20% off.

The 300s are not on sale.

Ray


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## 260972

Don_Go said:


> The inside chamfer can be very small - just remove the sharp edge.
> 
> I've often wondered why VPA doesn't advertise them better.
> 
> email "Ray" to see if they have some. [email protected]


Don, Thanks!!! I will post some picks of these when I make them. We are moving this week, but I hope to hook up my apple cut off tool quickly and cut these footings. I will post up some pictures....if you want, but I don't want to hijack this thread. 

I DO WANT SOME VPA RIGHT BEVEL HEADS THAT I CAN KEEP STOCKED AT ALL TIMES IF THEY TEST OUT WELL...AS I AM SURE THEY WILL...but people are going to want the more common right bevel as well as the left.

Thanks for the tips on the footings, I am going to go steal some of my 4 year olds aluminum arrows.


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## 260972

rayzor43 said:


> The Offset Single Bevel are available in 325gr and 300gr as of now. Left bevel only. There are several threads on the internet forums about them. Print advertising just doesn't give the return on investment to justify it especially on lower volume models.
> 
> We have only have seven packs of the latest run of 325s left and they are on sale for 20% off.
> 
> The 300s are not on sale.
> 
> Ray



Ray,

Thanks so much. When will the right bevels come in and will they be available at all times at any point? I would think that if they were available 24/7 then many more people would purchase them as single bevels have had to increase in archery market share with ABS, Ashby, and all of the "hub bub" over the last couple of years...at least I would think, but it sounds as though the VPA crowd buys the double bevels more than the single? I would love to pick up some VPA in a right single bevel non-vented in carbon steel in a 260 plus grain to 350 grain. Looks like you have built up a big following in both 3 blade and the 2 blade...nice looking heads!!!


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## Don_Go

The left bevel heads tighten up when they hit flesh. (The bevel is steeper than fletchings, causing it to spin even faster when it hits.) They will tend to loosen when they hit foam targets, since they can't turn in the target like they can in flesh. 

Getting left fletches and jigs is a PITA, but you really want everything on your side when hunting large, dangerous game.


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## 260972

Don, 

Yeah, I understand the best is needed for DG, but hopefully VPA will at least make a right bevel full-time as then they might sell exponentially more if consumers could buy them at all times for deer etc? However, if Ray tried to do this over the years and nobody bought the heads, then I could understand that he does not want to tool up for them. Ray if you get right bevels let me know as I have right bevel heads from other manufacturers, a Arizona EZ Fletch right jig arms, right offset fobs, and right offset blazer shrink fletch in bulk for all of my arrows.


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## geoff074

Try these us aussies swear buy them http://outbackbroadheads.com.au/ http://www.bowhuntingaustralia.com/


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## Blazinpond

interesting discussion. 

I use Gold Tip 200 Kinetic Pro and 300 Grain Single Bevel VPAs. Preparing for a trip to Africa next year...


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## bbjavelina

Blazinpond said:


> interesting discussion.
> 
> I use Gold Tip 200 Kinetic Pro and 300 Grain Single Bevel VPAs. Preparing for a trip to Africa next year...


What's your total arrow weight?


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## Blazinpond

bbjavelina said:


> What's your total arrow weight?


I ran 4 arrows through my chrono...

266
267 x2
268

*677 grain arrow at 267 fps
Over 105 ft-lbs kinetic energy*

If I'm not mistaken, this is well above IBO for the Monster Safari (approx. 350 IBO)
This would indicate the bow is extremely efficient at 85 lbs w/ heavy arrows.

28" draw length
85 lbs draw
12 grains weight on the string

View attachment 1586583


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## John Wayne

BlazenPond, 

That is some impressive numbers. How does that set up group? And are you useing vanes or feathers. 

Levi


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## Don_Go

Sounds like a good combination. You must be using the 100 gr brass inserts?


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## Rapt_up

These failures are indicative of over hardening for the application causing brittle failure. There are plenty of steels that would take an edge, be as hard and much tougher. Many tool steels meet these requirements.

Check out some of the steels used by custom knife makers, some of them are phenomenal. I'd look at seeing someone would make broadheads like this in CPM M4, or CPM 3V.





piggy said:


> I Used Ashby's Broadheads on a recent water Buffalo hunt and had the same issues with the broadhead snapping, infact of the 6 shots into water buffalo 5 of the 6 broadheads failed when impacting the entrance rib!
> I changed to the 250grn VPA broadhead on the same shaft and same bow and took a buff.
> 
> Here are some of the broadheads which snapped the shaft is where one snapped at the ferule


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## 260972

Don_Go said:


> I had an expensive trip to the range today.
> 
> Every arrow I shot broke when it hit the angle iron/target/skin that I had set up. These arrows all had a single 2016 aluminum footer 2.5" long on them, to match the common ferrule diameter.
> 
> I made a frame and stretched an old towel over it and placed that 6 inches from the target. Then I taped the angle iron to the target. The idea was that the towel would act like the skin of a critter and keep the shaft from slapping the angle iron. This did not work so well...
> 
> The first shot was the Abowyer Brown Bear (mine weigh 270 grains.) The head hit the iron and skidded off as always. The head hit so that bending force was in the plane of the blade - the blade is hardest to bend this way. The blade bowed very slightly and the ferrule bent at the back of the broadhead. The shaft broke about 9" back of the head, where it slapped the iron. There are several scrape marks on the shaft where it slid along the edge. The head buried about 8" into the Black Hole target. The Abowyer head behaved very well in this test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The next head tested was the SteelForce 300 gr single-bevel. This head came off the ferrule, inside the target. It came off right through the locking ring. Penetration into the target was about 4 inches. The ferrule was bent at a severe angle. The shaft and footer were cracked longitudinally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last half inch of the SteelForce tip curled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The VPA 300 grain Penetrator also curled at the tip. (About the last .7 inches.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (The shiny tracks on the blade are where I drilled the head out of the OSB in a previous test.) The curve in the head caused a curving track in the target. The head penetrated 10 inches into the target before the shaft broke off due to the sideways pressure. The body of the ferrule is still straight, but the threads broke off. This is where the shaft broke as well. This is the first total failure of one of these footed shafts. The forces due to the curving path must have been tremendous - the head wound up travelling at right angles to the flight path. I was very impressed that the ferrule did not bend. I suspect very strongly that the threads broke after the reinforced shaft gave up the ghost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see in the photo that the end of the shaft essentially disentegrated: there was aluminum and carbon fiber shrapnel in the "wound channel." The head almost exited the side of the target.
> 
> Add up the cost of the shafts, the heads and the target, and it was an expensive day!
> 
> All in all I was impressed with the metallurgy of both the Abowyer and VPA heads.











Don,

I am sure you posted it somewhere, but what inserts do you use with the GT Kinetics? 3 Rivers does not sell a 100 grain HIT do they??? I thought they just sold the 75 grain HIT???? If you are footing anyway then why not shoot the stainless steal Gold Tip Kinetic Insert half outsert and then foot over the outsert part????

The reason I ask is that I made some FMJ 300 regular and FMJ 250 dangerous game arrows but do not like the HIT ans much as my standard brass inserts in the powerflights. Thanks so much for your testing and posts. I think people would buy the VPA in right bevel if it was advertised as well but don't know if Ray will ever make them? Maybe someone would mass produce the dauntless....as I believe people would buy it more then a Rage someday. Look at how well ABS does with a single bevel focus.

Thanks for your knowledge once again!

Sean


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## Don_Go

3 Rivers does make a 100 grain brass HIT-like insert (or did) it is not from Easton, though.

I think the carbon shaft is stronger and resists bending better than the GT (or any) outsert.

The Dauntless custom broadhead beats them all. (Do a search on this site.)


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## rayzor43

No plans for a right bevel. Single bevel isn't really a market we want to expand on.


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## rayzor43

If we ever make them it will be on a custom basis for a customer rather than our own line. We may even consider branding our Offset Single Bevel 2 Blades for exclusively for someone else if they want to buy enough of them. Not sure if you caught the test that Sethro did before it got pulled. The "Elephant" arrow was built using CE Piledriver 450 a steel insert and VPA Offeset Single Bevel 300gr. 750 grains or so as I recall. Blasted through his test box made up of Ballistic Gellatin with Plywood both sides, then through the foam target behind it and into the wall behind it. I had sent him some of the new small diameter CE Pile Driver PTX with some extra weight added for testing just before the thread was removed. They penetrate better yet with all my testing.


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## 260972

rayzor43 said:


> If we ever make them it will be on a custom basis for a customer rather than our own line. We may even consider branding our Offset Single Bevel 2 Blades for exclusively for someone else if they want to buy enough of them. Not sure if you caught the test that Sethro did before it got pulled. The "Elephant" arrow was built using CE Piledriver 450 a steel insert and VPA Offeset Single Bevel 300gr. 750 grains or so as I recall. Blasted through his test box made up of Ballistic Gellatin with Plywood both sides, then through the foam target behind it and into the wall behind it. I had sent him some of the new small diameter CE Pile Driver PTX with some extra weight added for testing just before the thread was removed. They penetrate better yet with all my testing.


Ray, that is Impressive!!! I would think people would buy them for that reason alone.... but totally respect the business decision if you don't produce them. It seems as though the dauntless would be even more impressive, especially if you have the IP.

Can I humbly ask you the question of why you think the double bevels are the best for lethality over the single bevels in your immense experience and professional opinion?


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## 260972

don_go said:


> 3 rivers does make a 100 grain brass hit-like insert (or did) it is not from easton, though. I see, i am going to try some as you can see from the chart that i could not get the ultra foc from the fmj with even a 75 grain hit and a long and heavy 8.5 inch 2018 footing in the front. I will give the fmj one more try with the 100 grain hit type insert.
> 
> 
> I am also thinking about trying out the 200 kinetics as my 300 powerflights seemed to be underspinned with broadheads striking about 5 inches lower than my fp and sometimes flying more radically. I am going to try to cut the cheapo powerflights down 1.5 more inches from 30.5 inches to 29 inches. For cheap arrows, i love them though. My old single cam shoots them fine, but my motive 6 seems to need more spine at about 43 fps faster than my single cam with 644 grain arrows.
> 
> I think the carbon shaft is stronger and resists bending better than the gt (or any) outsert. Gotcha, and i thought the half in and half out gt inserts were ss, but think they are aluminum. If you sleeved it...then it could become an insert surrounded by the aluminum footing rather than an insert/outsert.
> 
> The dauntless custom broadhead beats them all. (do a search on this site.)


 yes i buy that and then some!!!! Awesome concept and wish someone would mass produce them!!!


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## rayzor43

hyperflite said:


> Ray, that is Impressive!!! I would think people would buy them for that reason alone.... but totally respect the business decision if you don't produce them. It seems as though the dauntless would be even more impressive, especially if you have the IP.
> 
> Can I humbly ask you the question of why you think the double bevels are the best for lethality over the single bevels in your immense experience and professional opinion?


I didn't say one is better than the other for lethality. Either design in the right place is lethal. We just believe in "our" double bevel design. More to the design than just the double bevel sharpening. The ferrule supports the blade to the tip and is faceted to match the sharpening angle. Makes for quite the little bone splitting head. I definitely don't want to turn this thread into a double vs single bevel debate... it was started by a customer. If some is set on a single bevel though there's a lot more behind those offset blades than one might think too....a feature carried over into Don's Dauntless head too.


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## 260972

I see, thanks for the info Ray. Maybe I'll try some out.


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## 260972

rayzor43 said:


> No plans for a right bevel. Single bevel isn't really a market we want to expand on.



I know it is not rocket science, but am interested in what you do just to sharpen the VPA Penetrator. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I was wondering if any of you could post up the diamond stone part etc. in this other VPA Penetrator thread:


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...post1068053585



VPA Penetrator 2 Blade Sharpening Video and Pictures

I was hoping that someone could post up a video of the VPA Penetrator Sharpening Process. The VPA Site has Andy Ivy and another Pro Staffer Sharpening the 3 blade heads. I was hoping that someone could post up pictures of the Penetrator being sharpened.

I have an accusharp that I sharpen my softer Stingers within seconds to shave hair, but it will not sharpen the VPA Penetrator's hard metal at all. I was going to send the little 150 grain VPA heads back for some vented ones at long yardage...however Ray at VPA keep telling me to just try them out at long yardage. I did and I am sold on them!!! Now I just need a way to get the VPA much much much sharper. What angle is the bevel on the Penetrator and what is better the KME Broadhead sharpener or the KME Knife Sharpener for these?


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