# Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance



## Hokieman

Hound hunting debate mounts
Bill Cochran

BILL: My name is Bryan Morris and I am the president of the United Eastern Virginia Hunting Dog Association and interim co-chair of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance. I am writing in reference to our position with the hound hunting study and the resolution that has passed the Board of Supervisors in several Southside Virginia counties.

The resolution in question merely emphasizes to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries that these counties are in favor of hound hunting, which plays a large part in their local economies. The resolution does state opposition for the current study by the DGIF and Virginia Tech. 

The reasoning behind our opposition is as follows: 

The impetus for the study is a reported increase in complaints [about hound hunters], but no numbers have been reported to substantiate this claim. Mr. [Bob] Duncan, [DGIF wildlife chief], was asked about the number of complaints, and was unable to give an estimate. We would like to be informed of the specific number and nature of the complaints, which sparked this study.

The study will be expensive. We have not been told the cost, but Virginia Tech advertised the assistant’s position at $30,000 per year with full faculty benefits. We do not see this as a judicious use of our licensing fees.

The profile of the focus group members continues to change. The original proposal involved a group of hunters that used dogs meeting to identify problems and offering options or proposals before legislation was imposed. When the study was announced at the DGIF June meeting, it was to include not only houndsmen, but also animal-welfare group members, still hunters, hikers and landowners.

As opposition to the study arose, we were then told that 70 percent of the study participants would be houndsmen. Now we are told houndsmen will make up 50 percent. How are we to be certain that the methods are not being changed to insure a predetermined outcome? 

Mr. Duncan has stated on several occasions that there may be no changes made or legislative proposals. This is very difficult to believe. The results of this study will most certainly be the basis of proposed legislation. The backing of Virginia Tech and the DGIF will give enough credence to any bill to guarantee its path through the legislature. The original process would have allowed for houndsmen to work with the DGIF to institute programs and practices that would not involve restrictive legislation. 

The method by which individuals are picked to be on the focus group is also questionable. What insurance is there to guard against “cherry picking?” How can we insure that our interests are being protected? The results of inquiry into a bear baiting issue by the DGIF, resulted in a proposal to ban tracking collars. No matter how “well intended” the resulting proposal was ill conceived and misguided. The issue was baiting, not telemetry.

In short, the study is unfounded and costly. It has questionable composition, means and methods. Therefore, the results will be questionable. Since this study will be the basis of upcoming legislation that will have the backing it needs to easily pass the legislature, we find it unacceptable in its current form. 

We recognize that there are issues to address. We want to be part of the solution and not have it imposed upon us. We urge all of our membership to be courteous and professional. Information on the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance can be found at vahda.org.

BRYAN MORRIS
DVM

BILL: The hound hunting debate has gotten out of hand every time it’s been brought up. I just wish people would understand that we are all hunters and if we don’t stick together in some fashion it will be the downfall of us all. 

FREDDY MCGUIRE


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## Hokieman

RA Virginia Tech
Research Associate: Public Involvement and Conflict Resolution Specialist 
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences 
Virginia Tech 

The Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences seeks to fill a full-time, term-limited research associate position with expertise in public involvement and conflict resolution in natural resource management and planning. The person in this position will work closely with the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries to facilitate public involvement in planning processes related to issues of importance to the agency. Primary emphasis in the first year will be on the issue of hunting with hounds in Virginia, with emphasis shifting in subsequent years to development of a land-use management plan for Virginia's state-owned wildlife management areas. Duties of the position include arranging and facilitating focus groups, advisory committee meetings and other public involvement events as well as maintaining lines of communication between Virginia Tech and the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. This is a special research faculty position with full faculty benefits, including tuition waiver for classes as outlined by Virginia Tech policy. The position is expected to be funded for at least 4 years but must be renewed annually.

Master's degree in fisheries & wildlife science, natural resources, or related field. Experience in one or more of the following areas: planning and public involvement in a natural resources field, conflict resolution, and meeting facilitation. Excellent communication skills. Anticipated salary is $30,000 per year with opportunities for adjustments depending on funding and performance.

Apply online at www.jobs.vt.edu , searching on posting # 070791. Attach a resume or cv, a cover letter, and a list of three professional references to the online faculty application. Review of applications will begin on September 7, 2007. Individuals with disabilities who need accommodation in the search process should contact the search committee chair, by the review date. Virginia Tech is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Institution. For further information contact: 

Dr. Steve L. McMullin, Search Committee Chair 
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences 
Virginia Tech 
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0321 
[email protected] 
Phone: (540) 231-8847 
Fax: (540) 231-7580 


Steve L. McMullin, Associate Professor 
Associate Department Head 
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences 
President-Elect, Southern Division American Fisheries Society 
Virginia Tech 
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0321 
Phone: (540) 231-8847 
Fax: (540) 231-7580


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## Hokieman

Grants Awarded to Virginia Tech Steven L. McMullen


Development of a land-use management plan for virginia's wildlife management areas 
Grant #: 447897 
Sponsor: VA Department of Game & Inland Fish 
PI: McMullin, Steve L. 
Inception to Date Total: $180,431 
Original Proposal #: 07267306 
OSP Admin.: Caldwell, Janice S. 
Program: Research 
Maximum Amt: $180,431 
Fund Code Financial Mgr. Department College Start Date End Date Transaction Year 
447897 McMullin, Steve L. Fisheries and Wildlife Science Natural Resources Aug 1, 2007 Jun 30, 2011 $180,431 2008 
Total Transactions: $180,431 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hunting with hounds in virginia 
Grant #: 447898 
Sponsor: VA Department of Game & Inland Fish 
PI: McMullin, Steve L. 
Inception to Date Total: $79,443 
Original Proposal #: 07267306 
OSP Admin.: Caldwell, Janice S. 
Program: Research 
Maximum Amt: $79,443 
Fund Code Financial Mgr. Department College Start Date End Date Transaction Year 
447898 McMullin, Steve L. Fisheries and Wildlife Science Natural Resources Aug 1, 2007 Jun 30, 2011 $79,443 2008 
Total Transactions: $79,443 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Hokieman

Things you need to know about the hound hunting study
by Bill Cochran


Dr. Steve McMullin may not be carrying a whistle or wearing a zebra shirt, but he is in for a lot of refereeing as facilitator of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries’ study of hunting with hounds in Virginia. 

The process has divided hound hunters. Some see it as an attack on their tradition. Others believe the best hope for preserving their sport is to join with the DGIF and address issues that have been giving hound hunting a bad name among landowners and even other hunters. 

The task for McMullin, who is associate professor of the Virginia Tech Department of Fisheries and Wildlife, is to make certain the process is clear, fair and meets designated goals. 

Here are his comments on several questions I asked: 

Q. What is behind the examination of hound hunting in Virginia? 

A. The DGIF began this examination in an effort to preserve the tradition of hound hunting while addressing the legitimate concerns of landowners who have complained in increasing numbers in recent years that their rights are being trampled. 

Some landowners have suggested that legislation is needed to address their concerns. The DGIF would prefer to have reasonable people from all sides of the issue talking to each other to address concerns. It is better to bring hunters and landowners together to work out their own solutions rather than fighting each other over potential laws and regulations. 

Q. Some hound hunters say the process is an effort to outlaw the use of dogs in deer hunting. How would you reply to that? 

A. Nothing could be further from the truth. Why would an agency that derives the majority of its income from hunters and anglers want to eliminate a significant number of its stakeholders? 

The agency’s goal in this process is clear: to preserve the tradition of hunting, including hunting with hounds, in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens.

All hunters should be concerned about shrinking opportunities to hunt because Virginia’s landscape is changing. Development pressure has gobbled up or surrounded many areas that have traditionally supported hunting, and many of the new landowners are less supportive of traditional uses of the land. 

Q. What about the people who say this process is nothing more than an anti-hunting move? 

A. I think it is unfortunate that a few folks are preying on the legitimate concerns of hunters with baseless and ridiculous accusations of anti-hunting sentiment in the DGIF instead of working with the agency to address the real issues. 

Q. Who are the stakeholders in this process? 

A. Everyone who has an interest in hunting in Virginia is a stakeholder. Our goal is to provide ample opportunity for everyone who chooses to participate. 

Q. A technical committee has been assigned. What is its function? 

A. It consists of DGIF wildlife managers and conservation police. Later we expect DGIF media specialists will be involved. The committee’s task is to research the issues and provide technically sound information to benefit the stakeholders. 

Q. Hound hunters say they originally were told that they would be the only stakeholders in an effort to solve their own problems. Now even animal-right’s people will be involved. What’s behind the broader base? 

A. The DGIF is bound by law to look out for the interests of all Virginians with respect to wildlife. Hunters, and especially hound hunters, clearly have the most direct interest and will be treated as the most important stakeholders in the process. However, the other people with an interest in the issues must be brought to the table. You can’t resolve issues between landowners and hunters by talking only to hunters. 

We will have an advisory committee comprised of a broad cross-section of all interests. Members must agree to pursue the goal of preserving the tradition of hunting, including hound hunting, in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens. 

Q. Some hunters will tell you that involving animal-rights people is carrying it a bit far. What’s your take?

A. They have the same right to participate as other stakeholders. We are specifically inviting people who we know have a great interest in the issues to participate in a series of focus group meeting over the next couple of months. The majority of these will be for hunters, and about half of them specifically for hound hunters. One focus group will consist of non-hunters who have an interest in the issue. 

Q. What if a person would like to be a stakeholder but is not selected to be part of the advisory committee? What opportunities will he or she have? 

A. There is much more to this process than who will serve on the advisory committee. This is a very inclusive process. Everyone with an interest in hunting in Virginia has multiple opportunities to participate, including through informal surveys, public meetings, review of the draft report and by calling, writing on emailing the DGIF. 

Q. What is the role of Virginia Tech in the process? 

A. To serve as a neutral and impartial manager. We have no stake in the outcome other than to ensure that every effort is made to promote the participation of those who have an interest in the outcome and to also ensure that all interests are treated fairly. 

Q. What skills do you personally bring to the table? 

A. I have more than 30years' experience in the fisheries and wildlife profession, first as a fisheries manager and chief of fisheries management for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, and for the last 18 years as a faculty member of Virginia Tech’s Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences.

In Montana, I revamped the state’s process for involving the public in making management decisions. In Virginia I have worked with the DGIF to implement my philosophy of public involvement through the development of the first statewide deer management plan and the statewide black bear management plan. 

My career has been dedicated to demonstrating that sound management of fish and wildlife must include both good science provided by professionals and meaningful involvement of stakeholders in determining what benefits we want our resources to produce. 

Q. When do you expect a final report and do you see recommendations going to the General Assembly? 

A. A draft report should be available for public comment by early next fall. After the public has had a chance to comment on it, a final report will be prepared and presented to the DGIF board. 

We have no preconceived plan to take anything to the General Assembly. If any recommendations go to the General Assembly, it will be because hunters, landowners and wildlife managers have worked together to generate solutions to issues that they agree require legislative action. 

An ideal solution to the issues surrounding hound hunting would be for hunters and landowners to agree on actions that resolve their own issues.


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## Hokieman

STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN H. KIRBY BURCH

This fight is not about the DGIF study, it is about a Governor that has stacked the Board of DGIF with folks that will do his will regardless of the consequences. The study is a distraction, a ruse. He has already said to "friends" that he will introduce legislation to make it a misdemeanor to leave a dog out for more than 3 days (maybe he will teach us to talk to them so they will come home more quickly)! He says he is going to end the chase seasons on all game during spring turkey, fall archery and muzzle-loading seasons. His divide and conquer tactics will only work if we Sportsmen don't reach out to non-dog hunting sportsmen. Remember this is the same Tim Kaine that, as Mayor of the City of Richmond, used taxpayer money to send six bus loads of demonstrators to the "Million Mom March Against Guns" in Washington D.C. When confronted with the facts by the Richmond Times Dispatch, he lied about it. After they stayed on him, Kaine said he did it, but that he had the authority to do so. A week later he finally agreed that he should repay the money! Six months later a group of prominent liberals re-paid the money (but no interest).

This time Tim Kaine is using Sportsmen's license money to fund a bogus study to distract you. The study is going to release its findings in 2008 or 2009 in time for the next Governor to deal with. But Tim Kaine already has the conclusions he wants and has told "friends" about them! He will introduce them after this year's elections on November 6. You probably won't hear about them in the newspaper because they will be covered up with budget stories. P.E.T.A. and the Humane Society of the US are the groups behind this effort. Animal rights activists have made this a major political issue and the Governor is going to listen to his allies.

The real issue before the Sportsmen of Virginia is the conduct of the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. Do we want an agency that defends hunters and promotes our Heritage instead of treating us as if we are all criminals? Do we want to support an agency that puts law enforcement ahead of resource stewardship? Millions have been spent for non-game programs, while quail populations have dwindled with little or no funding for research or habitat improvement. Wildlife biologists have complained that State Parks do a better job of managing wildlife resources than they are allowed to do on Wildlife Management areas! Do we want an agency that spends our license money for their personal use and is generally wasteful of its financial resources and then cries for more money and higher license fees? 

For too long DGIF has promoted its arrest of game violators with press releases telling of more than a hundred criminal violations only to get convictions on four or five charges because the rest were trumped up! DGIF has many dedicated professional staff members that are our friends, but they are being driven out of the agency by poor treatment and even poorer management!

We need to return a Department of Game and Inland Fisheries devoted to promoting our sport, in the schools, colleges and universities of Virginia so that mothers raising their children will want to be involved in a wholesome family oriented activity that promotes individual responsibility, self reliance and stewardship of our God given resources.

Remember that the Governor proposes, but the General Assembly disposes. This battle will be fought and won or lost in the legislature. On November 6, 2007, every member of the Virginia House of Delegates and the Virginia Senate will be up for grabs. If you aren't registered to vote, do it today, you only have until October 9th. Then go and talk to all candidates running in your area and see where they stand on the issues. If they won't pledge to SPECIFICALLY support your Heritage then don't vote for them! Elect No Strangers. If you don't go in person to see your legislators, phone them. They pay little attention to email messages and none to petitions. Remember to be polite and disagree only when you can be civil or be quiet!

You all need to do this today! Excuses will not mean much if you have to tell your child or grandchildren that we used to be able to hunt in Virginia. The people of Great Britain have lost fox hunting, the Australians have lost the right to own guns and we have let them take God from our schools... How much more are you going to let them get away with??? More than Ten Thousand Virginians have joined the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance standing shoulder to shoulder to stop this nonsense.

H. Kirby Burch
Chairman
Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance PAC
P.O. Box 657
Powhatan, Virginia 23139
http://vahda.org


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## Hokieman

Free Membership is being offered by Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance to every Virginia Hunter that wants to submit their information online at our website.

Thanks for Reading
Http://vahda.org


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## rattus58

The easiest way to cut through the BS is to File a Freedom of Information Act request for the records of complaints and keep pressing.

Aloha...


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## Hokieman

rattus58, Thanks for your comment. It is already in motion.:wink:


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## Hokieman

J Swan
The GA tasked DGIF with this issue - with the specific goal of DGIF reporting back to the GA.
That's how it works.
The intent was to do nothing but examine its OWN regulations to ensure there was a way to prosecute hunters who abused the exception to trespass. That's how this all started. A couple of citizens contacted their state reps because they were sick of a FEW hunters in their district not obeying the law. The reps sponsored some poorly written bills that got nowhere (because they were poorly written). So the ball kept getting tossed back in DGIF's court - and they did nothing. Eventually the GA got fed up and told the DGIF to do its job.
DGIF came up with this horrendous "study" all on its own. They were not tasked with reviewing hunting with hounds in Virginia. They were not tasked with doing anything but reviewing their OWN internal policies said:


> DON'T GIVE UP YOUR HERITAGE SO EASILY. VIRGINIA HUNTING DOG ALLIANCE IS WORKING VERY HARD TO SECURE HUNTING WITH DOGS IS SECURE FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO COME.


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## Hokieman

Article from Woods N Water Magizine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hunting with Hounds - A Virginia Tradition an Issue

Should there be any doubt that hunting with hounds is an imbedded tradition in the Old Dominion, consider that the Virginia state dog is the American fox hound. Consider that none other than the father of our country, George Washington imported fox hounds into Virginia for hunting purposes. Other prominent Virginians who molded our great state and country such as Thomas Jefferson kept and hunted with hounds. Hunting deer with hounds in eastern Virginia where the undergrowth is too thick for still hunting, standing or driving has been not only a tradition but an honorable way of life for generations.
What has changed over the years to bring the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries to consider new regulations for hunting with hounds? While not a new issue, the population growth and urbanization, posted property, development, "gentleman farms" and a more negative view of hunting and hunters all have contributed to a different view of hound hunting and hunting in general. These factors along with the few hunters who disregard property rights have brought the VDGIF to the point of seeking recommendations to resolve the issue which could result in new regulatory amendments to hunting with hounds. The intensity of the issue has certainly stepped up to another level.
Many of the small acreage farms, often held by owners without a rural or hunting background are posted and can be a point of contention when dogs hunting adjacent farms chase game onto their land. The same is true with absentee landowners (some not even U.S. Citizens) and those holding "investment property". Checking the VDGIF General Hunting Regulations regarding hunting with dogs, it is stated:

"When the chase begins on other lands, fox hunters and **** hunters may follow their dogs on prohibited lands, and hunters of all other game, when the chase begins on other lands, may go upon prohibited lands to retrieve their dogs, but may not carry firearms or archery tackle on their persons or hunt any game while thereon."

This regulation does not specify deer hunters who comprise the largest group of hound hunters and may have the widest ranging packs of hounds, and although not specified, I suppose they are included in the "hunters of all other game".
No matter what your stand on hound hunting I would advise a cyber trip to the VDGIF web site and check out their current thinking on "Hunting with Hounds in Virginia: A Way Forward". There you will find the approach which the VDGIF Board decided on, I.e. A "citizen stakeholder approach: the "stakeholders" to be comprised of "landowner based organizations; bear houndsmen; deer houndsmen; raccoon and fox hunters". Also, to create a "stakeholder" advisory group to consider issues identified by the preceding group.
To support the effort the department has formed a technical committee comprised of biologists, law enforcement officers "and others". The names and affiliation of those on the committee are listed on the web site.
If all is not totally a tangled mess in the above committees, the next step is to involve an "independent, professional dimensions consultant" (what a bunch of politically correct phraseology). This consultant is to report back with recommendations by the fall of 2008. Are we certain this consultant will be impartial? After paying for months of consulting, surely there must be action taken based on his or her recommendations.
Let's look at some of the means by which houndsmen, and hunters as a group can protect their rights.
We need to face the possible POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT on the issue. Unfortunately those with the most anti-hound-hunting sentiments, especially "recreational" landowners are folks of means and have some political influence. There are also groups (e.g. P.E.T.A.) with substantial monetary backing and political influence. The obvious action is to be in touch, individually and as sportsman groups with your legislators. And if you are not already a member of an organization with hound hunting interests - get involved as there is strength in numbers and even more in organized numbers.
Make sure someone from your organization is included in the VDGIF "focus group meetings" and in their "stakeholder advisory group". It would appear that deer, bear and raccoon hunters can also become involved as individuals.
Make sure you as a houndsman or your hunt club respect the rights of landowners. Get to know the landowners in your hunt areas. Let them know you will be hunting with hounds and that there is a possibility the hounds will cross onto their property. Don't assume that, since you or your club has to be running dogs on a certain acreage for generations that the right to do so exists with change of ownership. Do anything possible to improve the image of your sport.
Landowner rights must also be considered, whether they are old established farms or newcomers. These rights are already protected under existing laws and regulations and must be respected by the houndsman, who should, in addition to adhering to the letter of the law, show respect and courtesy to the landowner.
If you are a hunter but not a houndsman, be sure to have your voice heard on the matter, for, if the hunting with hounds is further restricted, it is another restriction on our overall hunting rights. Think of the old axiom "give them an inch and they'll take a mile". That is exactly how we should look at any anti-hunting proposals or actions.
As a deer hunter I do not hunt with hounds here in the western Virginia mountains but do respect the tradition, way of life and the fact that hunting with hounds in eastern Virginia is really a social event as well as a sporting event, and as such it should remain under the existing hunting regulations.
Let us hope that hunting with hounds in Virginia is truly "A Way Forward" as the VDGIF phrases it, and not a step back for the sport of hunting.


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## Hokieman

The Board members that are in position now are playing footies with HSUS and Peta and following political winds nothing has changed. DGIF and those that would end hunting are generally using two tactics. The first is to say that we are ignoring a widespread problem of trespassing. Anyone one that hunts knows there are slobs among us, as there are with fishermen, golfers and tennis players. We must learn to police our own by reporting violators and speaking out against members of our own groups that do not live up to the highest ethical standards. Please work to be a good neighbor! 

They have now produced a nebulous number of 900 complaints about hunting dogs between last hunting season and now. This is something that they said they did not have records on. It doesn’t say how the complaint was resolved or who was at fault! They pulled this one out of thin air! 

The second tactic being used is to say that we are attacking loyal DGIF staff that are our friends. That we are not telling the truth about their actions and motives! This often takes the form of personal attacks against us a group and the individual VHDA leaders. The record is clear. DGIF’s actions dispel doubt in any fair minded individual, the remainder do not want the truth! which are you?I stand firm in the direction Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is going.


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## rattus58

Do not let them get away WITH ANYTHING. Challenge Everything. When the truth gets out, it usually is ludicrous what they are trying to promote... not to take away the seriousness of this issue, I'd like to just show you what we have had to remind people of...

http://www.sunrisearchery.com/nwsltr/HHAfirst.pdf

If they say there are 900 complaints, demand them. If they say you are fighting those that are on your side... ask them for example... in fact.. demand the example.

Keep them honest, and keep PETA and HSUS honest as well. Challenge their influence with the Department, and make sure that ALL the players know that Wayne Pacelle is not out for Animal Welfare. He is anti HUNTING. That is his agenda, it has nothing to do with improving land relationships with hunters or vice versa.

If there are indeed high landowner complaints, do what you can to negotiate meetings DIRECTLY with the landowners. Do not let the State represent YOUR interests unless you are there.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Hokieman

KIRBY WILL BE DOING A LIVE INTERVIEW TONIGHT AT 9PM WITH NRA'S CAM EDWARDS.

live interview on the NRA News with Cam Edwards tonight at approximately 9:40 PM. It is available on Sirius Satelite Radio Channel 144 or can be heard on the computer at www.nra.org. The show starts at 9:00 PM.


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## treeman65

Well this is going to open a can of worms?First I agree with the fact that this is another step at taking our hunting rights away.
But I have to say it is also hard to try to stand up for the houndsman because of their lack of respect for other hunters.We have a 520 acre lease on the VA/NC line and they have done nothing but cause problems for us.Recently we cant them dumping dogs on to our property see from one of our stands acroos the clear cut.This property is at the dead end of a road and none of the landowners on either side allow dog hunting.When confronted we are always told you cant control where the dogs go and they lie to the fact of dumping them on the property.After this last incedent the Game Commision is involed and patroling the area for us.


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## MTNHunt

Thank you for the information. I will be sharing it with the hunting club that I am in, located in Spotsylvania. I will make sure that our President knows about the new association. During gun season we hunt with deer hounds and I know for a fact that we want our rights protected on this issue.


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## Hokieman

treeman65 said:


> Well this is going to open a can of worms?First I agree with the fact that this is another step at taking our hunting rights away.
> But I have to say it is also hard to try to stand up for the houndsman because of their lack of respect for other hunters.We have a 520 acre lease on the VA/NC line and they have done nothing but cause problems for us.Recently we cant them dumping dogs on to our property see from one of our stands acroos the clear cut.This property is at the dead end of a road and none of the landowners on either side allow dog hunting.When confronted we are always told you cant control where the dogs go and they lie to the fact of dumping them on the property.After this last incedent the Game Commision is involed and patroling the area for us.



It sounded as tho you had a enforcement issue with current game laws being broken. I am happy to see you got the game wardens involved to stop the current problem. I hope you have no further issues. There are rouge hunters everywhere and we have to start policing our own. thanks for your comment.


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## rattus58

*Dogs running loose..*

Here in Hawaii, hunting with dogs is a way of life. However, the law also states that you are responsible for the control of your animals. I think that it wouldn't be a stretch to have someone introduce legislation that dogs that trespass may be trapped or otherwise be disposed of by the landowner when he comes across them.

Another law that did not pass here for technical reasons, thankfully, is that if you are trespassing with a firearm, you are guilty of felony. Properly worded, this might also keep dog hunters on their own side of the fence.

While on a bear hunt in Maine last year, guys were running dogs from baits (that had to be marked) after bears, thus ruining hunting for several in our group who all payed good money for the opportunity to hunt.

People who hunt with dogs need to understand the implications for others, and that its the "others" who may make the difference. Once penalties are established for dogs trespassing, and you have a way to enforce it (license, tatoos, chips with the current owners info, etc etc) a few good fines will probably serve good enough notice on responsibility.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## jfish

*Quick simple question?*

Should a land owner who does not want hounds on his property have that right?


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> It sounded as tho you had a enforcement issue with current game laws being broken. I am happy to see you got the game wardens involved to stop the current problem. I hope you have no further issues. There are rouge hunters everywhere and we have to start policing our own. thanks for your comment.


I've called on these "rogue" hunters that train their dogs almost continuously out of season and the game warden tells me they're powerless to stop them. Unless they admit they're training illegally on deer which they won't. The GW tells me the laws need changing to stop it. The VHDA is playing this as a loss of hunting rights. Which of the 2 possible choices below should we pick? 

1. Allow dog hunters to continue to hurt the rights of other hunters who are obeying the laws.

2. Change the laws to stop problem causing actions through successful prosecution of those that are causing the problems - i.e. dogs out of season chasing during bow and ML on other's lands.

It's not loss of hunters rights it's a change in the laws to fix a problem. If the dog hunters obeyed the laws and showed respect for others then there wouldn't be survey and report on what to do. Denial there is a problem isn't going to make it go away this time. I think when the report comes out and the magnitude of it becomes known many will look at it differently.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I've called on these "rogue" hunters that train their dogs almost continuously out of season and the game warden tells me they're powerless to stop them. Unless they admit they're training illegally on deer which they won't. The GW tells me the laws need changing to stop it. The VHDA is playing this as a loss of hunting rights. Which of the 2 possible choices below should we pick?
> 
> 1. Allow dog hunters to continue to hurt the rights of other hunters who are obeying the laws.
> 
> 2. Change the laws to stop problem causing actions through successful prosecution of those that are causing the problems - i.e. dogs out of season chasing during bow and ML on other's lands.
> 
> It's not loss of hunters rights it's a change in the laws to fix a problem. If the dog hunters obeyed the laws and showed respect for others then there wouldn't be survey and report on what to do. Denial there is a problem isn't going to make it go away this time. I think when the report comes out and the magnitude of it becomes known many will look at it differently.


I understand your problem and admit that there is a problem with some rouge hunters but what I don't understand is the game wardens not coming out and enforcing current game laws and regulations and charging these individuals with trespassing or worse if no hunting is allowed on the property. If you're having a problem with illegal activity, and you don't call law enforcement, I fail to see how your problem is going to be resolved. You still have to call your game warden and ask him/her to help. Adding another layer of bureaucracy does nothing to solve your particular problem. You'll still have problems with illegal hunting - because 1) you don't call your game warden and 2) even if you did, there aren't enough of them. Though that should not stop you from reporting illegal activity to an enforcement officer. Who is your game warden? and how many is in your area that handle complaints.


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## jfish

Big Bird I will count your post as a "Yes" to Private land owner rights... thx


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## Hokieman

jfish said:


> Should a land owner who does not want hounds on his property have that right?



If your a landowner and your property is posted and hound hunters are on your property. You have every right to call your local enforcement officer and file charges for trespassing.

State law (Virginia Code Section 18.2-132) forbids hunters and fishermen to enter private lands without permission from the landowner. Although verbal consent is required for use of unposted lands, this provision is difficult to enforce. The landowner who wants effective control of access will have to post. Hunting, fishing, or trapping on posted land without written permission of the landowner is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $250.00 or by confinement in jail for not more than 30 days, either or both (Virginia Code Section 18.2-134). Posting laws are enforceable by game wardens, sheriffs, and all other law enforcement officers of Virginia.

Persons who own land in those counties in western Virginia that require big-game hunters to purchase animal damage stamps may have difficulty collecting for wildlife damages if hunters are excluded. Interpretation of Virginia Code 29-92.5 varies from county to county, so landowners should consult county officials before posting to ensure their eligibility for damage payments.

The landowner needs more than signs to post his property effectively. The posting strategy should include a standard sign that accurately conveys the landowner's policy on recreational use, systematic placement of signs along the boundary, routine inspection and replacement of weathered or vandalized signs, and a commitment to patrol for and prosecute violators. There is little point in conducting a half-hearted posting campaign because trespassers will detect a bluff and continue their use of the property.

In Virginia, the sign need only say POSTED to be legal. However, more information is desirable. If the land is closed to all trespassing, then a simple NO TRESPASSING sign will do. After you have established a record of successfully prosecuting trespassers, the trespassers in the locality will associate your sign and name with the fact that you mean business. If you limit hunting or other recreational activities to family, friends, and selected individuals, buy signs that read "POSTED, no hunting (and/or other recreational activity) without written permission" and give your name and address. Signs that convey positive messages are less likely to be vandalized than signs that are negative. If you have leased hunting rights to a club, then the club should purchase signs saying "POSTED, hunting rights leased by XYZ Hunt Club, no hunting without written permission. " The landowner may wish to control the wording of club signs. A landowner cooperative should adopt a standard sign not unlike that used by a hunting club.

Cardboard, fabric, plastic, and aluminum signs with standard or personalized messages are available from local or mail order suppliers. According to George Paduda, in the July, 1981, issue of American Forests magazine, the best long-run investment is the aluminum sign. Tack the sign to a board and then mount the board 10 to 12 feet high in a tree, using aluminum nails. Paduda recommends leaving onehalf inch of the nail out to accomodate tree growth. Aluminum nails will neither stain the wood nor ruin saw blades. Also recommended are the use of a stepladder to install the signs and a pruning saw to remove branches that obscure the sign. Spraypainting trees with a bright color along the boundary line is a good idea too. Signs should be displayed conspicuously along the property boundary and installed well before the hunting season.

The task of enforcement follows sign installation. Inform the game warden and other local law enforcement officers that your land is posted and that you and those to whom you grant permits and lease agreements will support prosecution of violators. During the hunting season the officers are extremely busy; but they will make every effort to respond to a call for help from a credible landowner.

The landowner or his representative should not take the risk of personally apprehending an armed trespasser. If a trespasser is operating a vehicle, write down the vehicle license plate number and its make, model, and color and note the date, time, and location. If a trespasser was observed, a name or description of the person is helpful. Call the warden or other local enforcement officer immediately.

During the hunting season wardens are almost impossible to reach at home, but they can be reached by calling the county sheriff, who will relay your message by radio. Also, while on the road, game wardens monitor CB Channel 9. All Virginia law enforcement officers are empowered to enforce the trespass law.


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## jfish

Hokieman,, Thanks for all the info on prosecuting people for tresspassing, however 9 out of 10 times it's not the people its the DOGS! Other than the Gloucester case I am unaware of a single case in Va where the Deer Hound Hunters were charged for their Hounds tresspassing. There are cases in Va of "Constructive Tresspassing" however other than the case mentioned above I know of no other where deer hounds alone caused issuance of a summons. It's the Deer Hounds that are typically causing the complaints not the Hunters chasing them.. Most Deer Hound Hunters are smart enough to not step over the line while they chase or dump their hounds.


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## Hokieman

jfish said:


> Hokieman,, Thanks for all the info on prosecuting people for tresspassing, however 9 out of 10 times it's not the people its the DOGS! Other than the Gloucester case I am unaware of a single case in Va where the Deer Hound Hunters were charged for their Hounds tresspassing. There are cases in Va of "Constructive Tresspassing" however other than the case mentioned above I know of no other where deer hounds alone caused issuance of a summons. It's the Deer Hounds that are typically causing the complaints not the Hunters chasing them.. Most Deer Hound Hunters are smart enough to not step over the line while they chase or dump their hounds.


Hound Hunters are responsible for their hounds and if their deliberitly cutting them loose on your property, they can be held accountable.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I understand your problem and admit that there is a problem with some rouge hunters but what I don't understand is the game wardens not coming out and enforcing current game laws and regulations and charging these individuals with trespassing or worse if no hunting is allowed on the property. If you're having a problem with illegal activity, and you don't call law enforcement, I fail to see how your problem is going to be resolved. You still have to call your game warden and ask him/her to help. Adding another layer of bureaucracy does nothing to solve your particular problem. You'll still have problems with illegal hunting - because 1) you don't call your game warden and 2) even if you did, there aren't enough of them. Though that should not stop you from reporting illegal activity to an enforcement officer. Who is your game warden? and how many is in your area that handle complaints.


Here you go for your reading pleasure.......



> No Sir.I'm sure they are running deer. They tell us they are fox dogs, or they got out of the pen, or any number of other things. I don't have any thing I can tell you that will help without a change in the seasons or laws.
> 
> Thanks, Sgt. Everidge


What part of the fact that the "no dog training on deer out of season" law is ineffective and impossible to enforce as it's written do you not understand?
That's the GW that's in charge of the zone I had problems in during youth spring gobbler day. Youth day in the spring and dogs are out running deer on private land? BTW we had a flock of birds under 100 yds with 4 big toms heading our way. Woof, woof and it was over for the morning. Try explaining that to your kid? And you wonder why people have had enough? Again unless they confess they're breaking the law the GW will not even bother to investigate because they know there is no chance of making it stick with the law as it stands today.

As far as number of complaints, I made ONE. And the response above is my reply and nothing happened. So why bother to call or email and go through the same "we're helpless with the current laws" story? I'm going to call each and every time from now on to make the numbers accurate. I'm also going to tell others to do the same. Many know it's a futile cry for assistance when you call so they don't even bother to call or call one time and give up. Again there is nothing or any way to prove a crime has occurred unless the criminal or offender admits it. They know and they don't admit it. End of story.


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## jfish

*Common excuses*

Hokieman, I applaud your effort and if it were as clear cut as you are suggesting the issue would not be before us. However, I would offer that it is not as simple as enforcing current laws and based on the experiences described by others regarding Deer Hounds running at large it has to be reviewed by VDGIF. Here is a quick 1/2 dz excuses typcially offerred by Deer Hound Hunters when their Hounds are where they aren't suppose to be... 

1. I dropped them on the other side of the road; I didn’t think they would cross over to your property.

2. We dropped them on our 40 acres up the road, We hoped they would run toward the standers and not into your 1200 acres that surround us on three side.

3. Oh? That Hound has been out since Thursday’s hunt, we were looking for that one.

4. Oh, no sir, we aren’t hunting, we are just parked in your driveway trying to catch our Deer Hounds that are running across your pasture..

5. No we’re not training deer hounds, we’re fox hunting…

6. They must have gotten out of the pen last night, sorry to mess up your morning bow hunt.

After considering just these six excuses, most of which I am sure are routinely used across the State, How under current law can a land owner preserve his right to "No Hounds" on his property. That is of course if you agree a property owner should have a right to say whether someone else's dogs are allowed on his property. I can tell you in most Cities across Va you do have that right and dogs at large are illegal.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Hound Hunters are responsible for their hounds and if their deliberitly cutting them loose on your property, they can be held accountable.


How about citing the law they're breaking? I'll save you the trouble, there isn't one - Yet.


Here's a post on another forum. Tell me how you stop this when you're 25 ft up a tree and 1/4 mile in. This is not me but another who's had enough.


> Just today -
> 
> This envolves a little 25 acre track of land in Prince George County VA that was just sold to a timber company that is located in Roanoke Rapids NC. The land happens to be adjacent to my property. It is all thick cut over and surrounded by private woodland property. Our property is mainly used for still hunting (when possible).
> 
> At 2:15 this afternoon I see seven unfamiliar trucks coming down the road, all with dog radio antennas on them and filled up with deer shooters with red hats. All seven trucks turned in on the 25 acre tract of land. They let out about 15 dogs and half of the shooters go down one side of the cut over and half the other side. All of them are on posted property because a man cannot walk through the thick cover on the property they obviously had permission to chase deer on (????)
> 
> I came out of my tree stand with my crossbow and called other land owners that join the 25 acres. There was a total of about 9 shots with dogs running all over my property and other's. Before I could get back to my vehicle and put my equipment up and get back there where they were, they had already gone. My afternoon hunt ruined once again on MY property. This is typical of inconsiderate deer chasing XXXXXXXX at least in the area of my property. Just one more incident that makes me hell bent on outlawing this crap.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> How about citing the law they're breaking? I'll save you the trouble, there isn't one - Yet.
> 
> 
> Here's a post on another forum. Tell me how you stop this when you're 25 ft up a tree and 1/4 mile in. This is not me but another who's had enough.



Code of Virginia

§ 3.1-796.93. Governing body of county, city or town may prohibit dogs from running at large. 

The governing bodies of the counties, cities and towns of this Commonwealth are hereby authorized to prohibit the running at large of all or any category of dogs in all or any designated portion of such county, city or town during such months as they may designate. Governing bodies may also require that dogs be confined, restricted or penned up during such periods. For the purpose of this section, a dog shall be deemed to run at large while roaming, running or self-hunting off the property of its owner or custodian and not under its owner's or custodian's immediate control. Any person who permits his dog to run at large, or remain unconfined, unrestricted or not penned up shall be deemed to have violated the provisions of this section. 

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.63; 1987, c. 488.) 


If dogs are running at large on your property and it is not chase season or hunting season. I would file a complaint with a local officer until something is done. It is apparent that your local game enforcement officers hands are tied so I would look at your countys ordiance codes. Reporting an offense is the first step to resolving your problem. I hope this helps.


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## Moon

*Hokieman*

The horse is out of the stable. You deer chasers have had every opportunity to do something positive during the last 10 years or so but fact is you cannot control the overwhelming number of slobs that are in your ranks.........neither can law inforcement. So, Hokieman, where does that leave us? I have an answer to that which you don't like and I'm going to continue to do everything in my power to end a long tradition that has gone horribly wrong. I'm sick of having my rights trampled upon on an ongoing basis and if ending it is the only thing that will take care of the problem then so be it. Nothing lasts forever and this is certainly something that has seen its best days. I'm 65 years old and have seen the gradual changing of attitudes of dog owners during the last 40 years. What was once a few farmers that had a couple hounds to chase deer on Saturdays (and I used to be part of that) has turned into bands of trucks with tracking antennas and triple decker dog boxes owned by arrogant young know it all dog owners that have no repsect for the law or property owners. I would describe what you are trying to do at this late date as "peeing up a rope".


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Code of Virginia
> 
> § 3.1-796.93. Governing body of county, city or town may prohibit dogs from running at large.
> 
> The governing bodies of the counties, cities and towns of this Commonwealth are hereby authorized to prohibit the running at large of all or any category of dogs in all or any designated portion of such county, city or town during such months as they may designate. Governing bodies may also require that dogs be confined, restricted or penned up during such periods. For the purpose of this section, a dog shall be deemed to run at large while roaming, running or self-hunting off the property of its owner or custodian and not under its owner's or custodian's immediate control. Any person who permits his dog to run at large, or remain unconfined, unrestricted or not penned up shall be deemed to have violated the provisions of this section.
> 
> (1984, c. 492, § 29-213.63; 1987, c. 488.)
> 
> 
> If dogs are running at large on your property and it is not chase season or hunting season. I would file a complaint with a local officer until something is done. It is apparent that your local game enforcement officers hands are tied so I would look at your countys ordiance codes. Reporting an offense is the first step to resolving your problem. I hope this helps.


Called the county and they do not have a at large law. Key word in the law is "may". As in may not. Not all counties have it. Besides hunting dogs are not at large, they're hunting and it's exempt. Again to repeat myself one more time, when caught or questioned the owner of the dogs state they are fox hunting. It's not against the law to fox chase 365. Now they're the sorriest fox hounds one ever saw because all they ever chase is deer. You know and I know they're deer hounds and dogs don't switch game animals when Nov 17th rolls around. I and another have exhausted the legal system and it's a looser. The GW won't bother to write a ticket. When they tell you they've never got a conviction on it what more does one need to hear?

Had another incident. Prez of the last club shot a dog that "didn't run". Said it was a common practice, sure is. I called animal control and reported it. They said an owner can put their own dog down by shooting and they too refused to act. I had the dog's location and all and they did nothing. Guess I should have told them his name was Vick huh? BTW it was in Surry county, same as the Vick incident.
The truth is the counties don't have funds or manpower to police hunting dogs. It's the game commission's job. But they don't have a law that holds up in court.


We can keep this there is a solution is available scenario going all day. The truth is nothing is and has ever been done to stop it. That's why the survey and report is in the works. Denial, aversion of the truth and shifting the process to say it's anti-hunting isn't going to work.


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## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> The horse is out of the stable. You deer chasers have had every opportunity to do something positive during the last 10 years or so but fact is you cannot control the overwhelming number of slobs that are in your ranks.........neither can law inforcement. So, Hokieman, where does that leave us? I have an answer to that which you don't like and I'm going to continue to do everything in my power to end a long tradition that has gone horribly wrong. I'm sick of having my rights trampled upon on an ongoing basis and if ending it is the only thing that will take care of the problem then so be it. Nothing lasts forever and this is certainly something that has seen its best days. I'm 65 years old and have seen the gradual changing of attitudes of dog owners during the last 40 years. What was once a few farmers that had a couple hounds to chase deer on Saturdays (and I used to be part of that) has turned into bands of trucks with tracking antennas and triple decker dog boxes owned by arrogant young know it all dog owners that have no repsect for the law or property owners. I would describe what you are trying to do at this late date as "peeing up a rope".


Bad attitude to take.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Called the county and they do not have a at large law. Key word in the law is "may". As in may not. Not all counties have it. Besides hunting dogs are not at large, they're hunting and it's exempt. Again to repeat myself one more time, when caught or questioned the owner of the dogs state they are fox hunting. It's not against the law to fox chase 365. Now they're the sorriest fox hounds one ever saw because all they ever chase is deer. You know and I know they're deer hounds and dogs don't switch game animals when Nov 17th rolls around. I and another have exhausted the legal system and it's a looser. The GW won't bother to write a ticket. When they tell you they've never got a conviction on it what more does one need to hear?
> 
> Had another incident. Prez of the last club shot a dog that "didn't run". Said it was a common practice, sure is. I called animal control and reported it. They said an owner can put their own dog down by shooting and they too refused to act. I had the dog's location and all and they did nothing. Guess I should have told them his name was Vick huh? BTW it was in Surry county, same as the Vick incident.
> The truth is the counties don't have funds or manpower to police hunting dogs. It's the game commission's job. But they don't have a law that holds up in court.
> 
> 
> We can keep this there is a solution is available scenario going all day. The truth is nothing is and has ever been done to stop it. That's why the survey and report is in the works. Denial, aversion of the truth and shifting the process to say it's anti-hunting isn't going to work.


Then you should get a group in your area to lobby the board and get the current codes of virginia approved so that some sort of enforcement can happen. This is ridiculos that game wardens not enforcing game laws and county government not adopting a nuisance dog ordiance. Thats the very reason Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance wants to restructure the DGIF Board.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Then you should get a group in your area to lobby the board and get the current codes of virginia approved so that some sort of enforcement can happen. This is ridiculos that game wardens not enforcing game laws and county government not adopting a nuisance dog ordiance. Thats the very reason Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance wants to restructure the DGIF Board.


It's not the board, it's the politicians that make the laws. The county is not going to adopt at large laws for deer hounds and add to their workload. The law to restrict dog running - PERIOD - in the off season is what's needed. I don't need to lobby, they just need a no dogs chasing out of season law - done and problem gone. If the fox hunters want to moan about it then let them try to get it through the deer hound hunters heads that they cant train out of (or actually in another's) season. It boils down to respect for your fellow hunter. It's been proven over time that many of the deer dog hunters don't have any. I've hunted for 30 years in SE VA both in and around dog clubs. My experience is 90% train out of season. I had few if any archery days out that I did not have another's dogs on the private land I was on. We're fed up and it's got to change. I am not alone.


BTW your attitude of it's someone else's fault or some other entity needs to fix it is classic dog hunter mentality in action. Denial to the extreme a problem exists. This is exactly why it's at the point it is.


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## Hokieman

Fox
Hunting With Dogs and Firearms
Season:
November 1-February 29. Closed in Albemarle, Clarke, Culpeper, Fauquier (except Quantico), Loudoun, Louisa, and Rappahannock counties.

Dogs May Not Be Used:
To hunt foxes during deer season 
on the Gathright, Goshen, Highland and Little North Mountain Wildlife Management Areas and within the boundaries of the George Washington/Jefferson National Forests. 
Hunting With Dogs Only
Continuous open season statewide; closed February 1-October 31 on the George Washington/Jefferson National Forests and on Gathright, Goshen, G. Richard Thompson, Highland, Little North Mountain, and Rapidan WMAs.

Restrictions:
To have in possession a firearm when hunting fox outside of the dog and gun fox season. Possession shall include, but not be limited to, having any firearm in or on one's person, vehicle, or conveyance 

I see your concern but I believe there is a solution to it without banning a sport for legitimate hound hunters that isn't a slob hunter. If your local game enforcement officer isn't concerned enough to try and catch these individuals then maybe he needs replaced and someone put into the area that nows virginia game laws and regulations enough to write some tickets to hunters who are abusing game law regulations. How can I contact Robert and get both sides to the story?


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> It's not the board, it's the politicians that make the laws. The county is not going to adopt at large laws for deer hounds and add to their workload. The law to restrict dog running - PERIOD - in the off season is what's needed. I don't need to lobby, they just need a no dogs chasing out of season law - done and problem gone. If the fox hunters want to moan about it then let them try to get it through the deer hound hunters heads that they cant train out of (or actually in another's) season. It boils down to respect for your fellow hunter. It's been proven over time that many of the deer dog hunters don't have any. I've hunted for 30 years in SE VA both in and around dog clubs. My experience is 90% train out of season. I had few if any archery days out that I did not have another's dogs on the private land I was on. We're fed up and it's got to change. I am not alone.
> 
> 
> BTW your attitude of it's someone else's fault or some other entity needs to fix it is classic dog hunter mentality in action. Denial to the extreme a problem exists. This is exactly why it's at the point it is.


My attitude has been nothing but concern for your problem unlike your ban all hunting dog logo. Let me see what the problem is from both sides. I admit you seem to have a problem but I feel with the laws that are already inacted by the virginia game laws regulations are enough to resolve the issue. I don't think your the owner of this property but lease it or what is your affillation?


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## treeman65

There is very good points on both sides.I feel that the good respectable dog hunters should do more than stand up and fight these changes.Maybe if they voiced their concerns to the slobs out there it would help to get the respect of the non- dog hunters.
Where someone that posted about the young arrogant dog hunters this statement is true specially in Person County,NC (Roxboro area) There is a store near our hunting property that we eat lunch at and 90 % of the dog hunters in there are of this arrogant type.We triing to manage the deer on our property then when we stop there we are always hear about them shooting these first year deer and thinking they running the county.Maybe this post should be posted in areas like that for them to see how they are ruining your sport.
If it one someone I knew breaking the laws are making a bad name for us hunters I would definitly do something to see this person was dealt with.2 years ago there was a guy that was bragging about shooting nice bucks at night with a spot light.Well he got what he deserved after I repeatedly called the warden.:wink:


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## Hokieman

Dogs at Bay

Friday, Dec 28, 2007 - 12:09 AM 

If someone moved to Manhattan and then complained that there was no place nearby to go fly fishing, you'd think he was a couple of cards short of a full deck. Likewise, if a Manhattanite moved to Kilmarnock and then complained that there was no deli within walking distance, you would wonder how many ants short of a picnic he was.

But according to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, some newcomers who have moved to rural Virginia have been dismayed to discover people hunt with dogs. Indeed, tens of thousands of Virginians do just that -- sometimes noisily, and often at hours that must seem odd to city folk.

There has been an increase in complaints about dog hunting. Complainers have been particularly upset when hunting dogs stray onto their land and the hunters show up to retrieve them.

No doubt some hunters trespass on the patience, never mind the property, of their neighbors, and could use a refresher course in etiquette. On the other hand, it's slightly ridiculous to move out of town in search of the charms of the country -- and then gripe about it when you find them.

Hunters should do their best to keep their dogs off the property of people who haven't given permission to hunt on their land. But newcomers should also realize property lines in the great outdoors can be difficult to discern. Maybe they should acquaint themselves with an old country trick that's often used to discourage unwanted guests: building a fence.


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## treeman65

Hokieman said:


> Dogs at Bay
> 
> Friday, Dec 28, 2007 - 12:09 AM
> 
> If someone moved to Manhattan and then complained that there was no place nearby to go fly fishing, you'd think he was a couple of cards short of a full deck. Likewise, if a Manhattanite moved to Kilmarnock and then complained that there was no deli within walking distance, you would wonder how many ants short of a picnic he was.
> 
> But according to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, some newcomers who have moved to rural Virginia have been dismayed to discover people hunt with dogs. Indeed, tens of thousands of Virginians do just that -- sometimes noisily, and often at hours that must seem odd to city folk.
> 
> There has been an increase in complaints about dog hunting. Complainers have been particularly upset when hunting dogs stray onto their land and the hunters show up to retrieve them.
> 
> No doubt some hunters trespass on the patience, never mind the property, of their neighbors, and could use a refresher course in etiquette. On the other hand, it's slightly ridiculous to move out of town in search of the charms of the country -- and then gripe about it when you find them.
> 
> Hunters should do their best to keep their dogs off the property of people who haven't given permission to hunt on their land. But newcomers should also realize property lines in the great outdoors can be difficult to discern. Maybe they should acquaint themselves with an old country trick that's often used to discourage unwanted guests: building a fence.


 I have to disagree with the statement about dogs onto other land.The property I talk about is on a dead end road and we are at the end of it.Plus we have talked to the landowners that surround it and they are having the same issues.So that means the dogs are comming across at least 2 properties which is alot of land in any direction so you can say this is stray?They have been caught by several of us dump dogs off on other peoples property in VA and NC.Matter of fact the one landowner has land in both states and has complained about have to give up hunting to patrol his land.
I also dont think we should have to build a fence to keep them out.IN order to put a fence on 520 acres would take alot of time away from us that we could be working on food plots.Other guys that hunt with us have threatened to take care of this their own way which I dont agree with and have been keeping that from happening so far.


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## 3dbowmaster

I've got a question???

There has been alot of concern from our club about hunting with hounds....
From what I've gathered, its mainly geared toward hunting deer with hounds.
They seem to think its geared more toward ****, rabbit, and fox hunting. 

We can't hunt deer with dogs here but there sure is alot of fox rabbit and **** hunting going on. 
Now what is the study geared mainly towards? Deer hounds or Hounds in general? Or trespassing/ dog control/restraint (which is my concern) ?

We would love to get a guest speaker to come and speak at our next meeting about this if you know of anyone....


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## Hokieman

This hound study involves bear, deer, fox and raccoon hound hunters. any new game regulations will affect all hound hunters.


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## jfish

*Geared toward?*

From what I have been told the study is geared toward all hound hunters. However, I would imagine there are very few complaints about hounds other than DEER Hounds. With that being said I would encourage all those who have a stake in this matter to clearly identify which group of Hound Hunters you are referring to when talking about the problem. I suspect the Deer Hound Hunters are taking ever opportunity to bring "all" hound hunters into the debate in an attempt to boost their numbers. As stated in other threads there are very few complaints about bird hunters, **** hunters, or rabbit hunters. I think that being very specific about who or which group you are referring to can only help the cause...


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## Moon

*Existing laws as Hokie keeps referring to*

are obviously a failure and/or are not/will not/cannot be enforced as we have seen year end and year out for a long time. What makes anyone think that suddenly deer/fox (you never know) chasing dog owners will start respecting others and obey the law? 

My bad attitude?? I didn't just wake up one morning and think OK I'll develop a bad attitude.  

I'm meeting with one of the timber company's representatives in January to let him know what they quite possibly could be facing in the future if things don't change for the better. 

I'm tired of pleading. I'm tired of trying to get deer chasers and deer chasing organizations to understand what they are doing to property owners' rights. I'm tired of the anguish I carry around with me as a result of being trampled on. I do nothing to affect anyone else's rights and privacy with my hunting. I expect the same in return. All the "let's talk this over" BS can be argued by others. I'm past that now as you can see.


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## BigBirdVA

I agree MK on the laws. I called the GW , the county and they both said presently there is no law to stop what they were doing, which was dogs running deer out of season. I don't have issues with real fox hunters and if I should one day actually meet a real one I'll ask their views on all this. To date I've seen seen 1, that's one, fox hunt with horses and red coats and tooting on a horn. I've seen dozens of false fox hunters tooting on other things and not wearing anything red. I have no issues with rabbit dogs, or bear dogs or any other dogs out hunting. Actually I could live with dog hunters if they would keep to their own until it's their time in the woods. Then they can do what they want.

As long as the dog hunters fail to wake up and smell the coffee they're going to have a hard time ahead. 

Lets recap for those that don't yet get it. There is no law to stop them anywhere in VA that can hold up in a court of law and result in a conviction. Without fear from prosecution there is no way to stop or deter them. They know this and that's the crux of the problem. We can talk all day about laws that should work and such but this is the way it is now, today. Now if you have a fix that gives each group it's time in the woods without the possibility of dog / deer hunters abusing it let me know.


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## MTNHunt

Hokieman,

Welcome to Sesame Street. Some people will never be happy until they do away with deer dog hunting whether its a law about it or not. I do it legally and will always disagree with so-called hunters who object to my legal way of running them. So far it seems that you have met three of them. They would never be happy because even if you were hunting on your land adjacent to theirs and the dogs were not on there land, they would probally want to past a law about the noise that the pack of hounds was making in that it was disturbing there trophy hunting.

And for the elderly guys comments about arrogant dog hunters, you are stero-typing people, not all dog hunters are trespasser and law-breakers or arrogant. Didn't they teach you that way back in school?

For the record Hokieman, you need to check some of the other dog hunting post and the pole that was done, because not all Virginia AT's want to put an end to it. 

BigByrd has posted many times that his solution is perfect, give the dogs a dirt nap.


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## Hokieman

DGIF has long-standing and continuing flawed supervision, enforcement personnel shortages and minimal understanding of dog training or hunting and mismanagement of non game funds. Now is the time to call your legislator and let him know how you feel and to support Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance in resturing the selection of the board of DGIF. 

http://leg1.state.va.us/081/mbr/MBR.HTM


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## jfish

*Mtnhunt*

Sure, I can just imagine if every so called "Trophy Hunter" as you put it went out and purchased a trapping lic. 2 dozen leg hold traps and followed the game laws regarding trapping on their land, based on your post you would not have anything to say about it. Yeah Right, I bet when most of your hounds or at least those that make it back onto your property come back limping you would go bat ****. Well, thats how I feel when deer hounds ruin my still hunting.. But wait! it's legal, it's Va Heritage, you just don't like what I am legally doing... how dare you complain?? Maybe you're right, you do whatever you want to do on your property and I will do whatever I want on mine. If my actions negatively impact you, oh well so be it.. Thats a great attitude toward other Hunters...


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## treeman65

Well another reason I am against running dogs for deer.Last night my daughters boyfriend showed up at the house and ask if I want a deer.I tell him no and asked what he shot.Well he states I shot 3 today so I proceed to question.
1. he was runnig dogs in a county that it is against the law.
2.3 deer is also against the law in one day.
He will never hunt with me again and if I find out where he is hunt the game warden will be waiting next time I know he is going.


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## 3dbowmaster

Out of curiosity, wonder how many dog handlers pull their dogs off the track when the dog crosses onto someone elses land?????:thumbs_do
I would gaurentee that there is none......

In my eyes, that is the problem. If there was a trespassing law for the dogs/dog owner. (that would stick in court) There wouldn't be a problem:darkbeer:


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## jfish

*dogs*

Although I have become very vocal about the anti-deer hound matter I truly think most hound hunters would rather their dogs stay on their land and not go onto others property. Neck I know years ago when I was a part of a hound club we hated it when the dogs go away from us and you spent the rest of hte afternoon trying to get them back on your land. It is just a part of the game when you run hounds. However, now days there are far more still hunters than 20 years ago, land is divided more than ever and dogs getting on someone else's property happen far too aften. That coupled with the out of season running and the image trucks, Cbs, antennas, orange hats ang guns is just not as acceptable as it was then. Times do change and maybe it's time.

Remember, at one time smoking in the office was perfectly acceptable, kids standing in a car seat, or riding in the back of a truck was nothing. Times have changed....


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## BigBirdVA

MTNHunt said:


> ..........BigByrd has posted many times that his solution is perfect, give the dogs a dirt nap.


Got a question for you MutnHtr. 

Lets say you pay $1,000 plus a year to lease private land. And in the spring dogs screw up your gobbler hunt just as one is coming in. You catch the 3 dogs and return them to the owner. You tell them I don't want to see them again it's spring gobbler season, not deer season. Next weekend the same dogs are out again. You know the GW and county have no way to stop this individual from disrupting your hunt. You know he's not going to stop on his own because you already asked him - NICELY - one time. Spring gobbler ends at noon. If the dogs run through and run the birds back into the swamp your morning set up is pretty much over. 

Do you expect me to just keep going out there and having my hunt messed up week after week?

How do I stop it from happening again? 

When there is no legal fix and I'm the repeat victim of another's inconsiderate actions I'm going to do what it takes to put a final and permanent end to the problem after I've exhausted all other possible solutions. 

This is what many of us are tired of dealing with year after year. Now I'm all ears if the VA Dog Chasers Association has a working fix that doesn't put their so called "rights" over mine.


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## GCOD

Here in Florida dog hunters are required to tag their dogs with the owners name ,adress and hunting lic number, if their dog or dogs come onto someone elses property all you have to do is catch the dog call the GW and he will come get the dog return it to the owner and issue the owner a ticket, also our dog hunters have their own area to dog hunt in that still hunters cannot hunt, and still hunters have their own areas to hunt without having to deal with dogs or dog hunters


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## 3sheets

*Alrighty then,*



Hokieman said:


> DGIF has long-standing and continuing flawed supervision, enforcement personnel shortages and minimal understanding of dog training or hunting and mismanagement of non game funds. Now is the time to call your legislator and let him know how you feel and to support Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance in resturing the selection of the board of DGIF.


... hows about some specifics as to how you folks exactly wanna see the VDGIF Board restructured. Come on give us names, what currrent board members would you like to see removed ??? :set1_thinking: :biggrin1:


3sheets


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## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> ... hows about some specifics as to how you folks exactly wanna see the VDGIF Board restructured. Come on give us names, what currrent board members would you like to see removed ??? :set1_thinking: :biggrin1:
> 
> 
> 3sheets


Enough to be replaced by those with dog breath so they can keep on doing what they do. :thumbs_do


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## 3sheets

*So ...*



Hokieman said:


> This hound study involves bear, deer, fox and raccoon hound hunters. *any new game regulations will affect all hound hunters.*


since you seem to know the particulars about all of these new regulations already, howz bout being so kind as to fill us all in ??? :bounce:


3sheets


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Enough to be replaced by those with dog breath so they can keep on doing what they do. :thumbs_do


No Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance wants everyone to call your representatives and ask them to "support the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and our efforts to de-politize the DGIF Board by restructuring the Board so the six positions are appointed by the General Assembly and are no longer"at will" positions. 

"This DGIF Board consists of 11 members appointed by the Governor of VA, with one representative selected from each congressional district in the state. The Board meets approximately six times a year to set regulations and policy for the operation of the Department. Proposed regulations are presented at public meetings so that anyone who has an interest in them is able to voice their opinion. Once the discussion is complete, the Board votes on the regulation and sets a date for when it will take effect if it passed."

The legislators will support the home town folks far quicker than they will a State organization that they know doesn't vote in their district. Its important that you understand that all hunters in virginia should do this not just the hound hunters.

First of all if we can get six of the eleven members of the DGIF Board appointed by the Legislature... 4 House, 2 Senate and have all members of the Board serve for "good service" as opposed to "at will" they will be better able to resist the pressure from the appointing authority to follow political winds and more likely to follow their conscience. If they are required to hold a VA hunting or Fishing or Trapping license for the three years prior to their appointment you most likely will get a better group, that will be more likely to follow the voice of the people and know what hunting is and about. Their are some on the board who has never hunted or care too.


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## Hokieman

This fight is not about the DGIF study, it is about a Governor that has stacked the Board of DGIF with folks that will do his will regardless of the consequences. The study is a distraction, a ruse. He has already said to "friends" that he will introduce legislation to make it a misdemeanor to leave a dog out for more than 3 days (maybe he will teach us to talk to them so they will come home more quickly)! He says he is going to end the chase seasons on all game during spring turkey, fall archery and muzzle-loading seasons. His divide and conquer tactics will only work if we Sportsmen don't reach out to non-dog hunting sportsmen. Remember this is the same Tim Kaine that, as Mayor of the City of Richmond, used taxpayer money to send six bus loads of demonstrators to the "Million Mom March Against Guns" in Washington D.C. When confronted with the facts by the Richmond Times Dispatch, he lied about it. After they stayed on him, Kaine said he did it, but that he had the authority to do so. A week later he finally agreed that he should repay the money! Six months later a group of prominent liberals re-paid the money (but no interest).

This time Tim Kaine is using Sportsmen's license money to fund a bogus study to distract you. The study is going to release its findings in 2008 or 2009 in time for the next Governor to deal with. But Tim Kaine already has the conclusions he wants and has told "friends" about them! He will introduce them after this year's elections on November 6. You probably won't hear about them in the newspaper because they will be covered up with budget stories. P.E.T.A. and the Humane Society of the US are the groups behind this effort. Animal rights activists have made this a major political issue and the Governor is going to listen to his allies.

The real issue before the Sportsmen of Virginia is the conduct of the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. Do we want an agency that defends hunters and promotes our Heritage instead of treating us as if we are all criminals? Do we want to support an agency that puts law enforcement ahead of resource stewardship? Millions have been spent for non-game programs, while quail populations have dwindled with little or no funding for research or habitat improvement. Wildlife biologists have complained that State Parks do a better job of managing wildlife resources than they are allowed to do on Wildlife Management areas! Do we want an agency that spends our license money for their personal use and is generally wasteful of its financial resources and then cries for more money and higher license fees? 

For too long DGIF has promoted its arrest of game violators with press releases telling of more than a hundred criminal violations only to get convictions on four or five charges because the rest were trumped up! DGIF has many dedicated professional staff members that are our friends, but they are being driven out of the agency by poor treatment and even poorer management!

We need to return a Department of Game and Inland Fisheries devoted to promoting our sport, in the schools, colleges and universities of Virginia so that mothers raising their children will want to be involved in a wholesome family oriented activity that promotes individual responsibility, self reliance and stewardship of our God given resources.

Remember that the Governor proposes, but the General Assembly disposes. This battle will be fought and won or lost in the legislature. On November 6, 2007, every member of the Virginia House of Delegates and the Virginia Senate will be up for grabs. If you aren't registered to vote, do it today, you only have until October 9th. Then go and talk to all candidates running in your area and see where they stand on the issues. If they won't pledge to SPECIFICALLY support your Heritage then don't vote for them! Elect No Strangers. If you don't go in person to see your legislators, phone them. They pay little attention to email messages and none to petitions. Remember to be polite and disagree only when you can be civil or be quiet!

You all need to do this today! Excuses will not mean much if you have to tell your child or grandchildren that we used to be able to hunt in Virginia. The people of Great Britain have lost fox hunting, the Australians have lost the right to own guns and we have let them take God from our schools... How much more are you going to let them get away with??? More than Ten Thousand Virginians have joined the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance standing shoulder to shoulder to stop this nonsense.

H. Kirby Burch
Chairman Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance
Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance PAC
P.O. Box 657
Powhatan, Virginia 23139
http://vahda.org


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## 3sheets

*Alright*

... Hokieman, enough of the cut & paste and canned responses already, just answer the specific questions I asked above if that is even possible for you !!


Now in addion to those that you avoided so far, here's two more:

1. Who on the current VDGIF Board doesn't hunt, trap, or fish ???

2. What if I posted, let's say what I would call very questionable information about one of your Deer Dog Hunting brethern, would you investigate it and get back to us with a response, since you seem to think that you Deer Dog Folks can police your own ranks ??? 


3sheets :bounce:


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## billy the kid

*Half Truths*

It seems that this alliance is speaking in half truths , all hunting as we know it is in jepordey, ha , ha , ha ukey:. Seems to me your just looking for quick support using scare tactics and wanting a knee jerk response from us law abiding hunters , I persnally hope deer dog hunting in Va. changes . In all other types of dog hunting the dog goes home at night !! And be carfull ya don't tell the study how you tresspass RIGHT . THINGS HERE IN VA. NEED TO CHANGE!!!


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## Hokieman

billy the kid said:


> It seems that this alliance is speaking in half truths , all hunting as we know it is in jepordey, ha , ha , ha ukey:. Seems to me your just looking for quick support using scare tactics and wanting a knee jerk response from us law abiding hunters , I persnally hope deer dog hunting in Va. changes . In all other types of dog hunting the dog goes home at night !! And be carfull ya don't tell the study how you tresspass RIGHT . THINGS HERE IN VA. NEED TO CHANGE!!!


"And be carfull ya don't tell the study how you tresspass" I posted that for **** hunters and Bear Hunters because of the right to retrieve is the focus group main study point. Landowners don't like the right to retrieve law. Not trying to scare anyone but to info all hunters of what is going on.:darkbeer:


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> I posted that for **** hunters and Bear Hunters because of the right to retrieve is the focus group main study point. Landowners don't like the right to retrieve law. Not trying to scare anyone but to info all hunters of what is going on.:darkbeer:


Well Derick, I must say those **** & Bear Hunters must be so in awe of just your very presence, since none of them has saw fit to make a post in that thread yet. 

Lets look at what else you said; First you say this: 
"A FEW ROUGE INDIVIDUALS COULD RUIN A GREAT THING FOR VIRGINIA HUNTING DOG OWNERS. LAWS ARE TO BE FOLLOWED, IT'S THAT SIMPLE. IT'S NOT THE GAME COMISSIONS FAULT THEY ARE MERELY ENFORCING THE LAWS"

Then you say this:
"IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION."

Sure seems to me like your talking out of both sides of your mouth !! :doh:

By the way, I'm still waiting on answers to my 4 previous question !! :nixon:

Whoops just make that 3 questions, turns out this one ... "2. What if I posted, let's say what I would call very questionable information about one of your Deer Dog Hunting brethern, would you investigate it and get back to us with a response, since you seem to think that you Deer Dog Folks can police your own ranks ???"
... was actually you !! roflmao :mg:



3sheets :bounce:


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## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Well Derick, I must say those **** & Bear Hunters must be so in awe of just your very presence, since none of them has saw fit to make a post in that thread yet.
> 
> Lets look at what else you said; First you say this:
> "A FEW ROUGE INDIVIDUALS COULD RUIN A GREAT THING FOR VIRGINIA HUNTING DOG OWNERS. LAWS ARE TO BE FOLLOWED, IT'S THAT SIMPLE. IT'S NOT THE GAME COMISSIONS FAULT THEY ARE MERELY ENFORCING THE LAWS"
> 
> Then you say this:
> "IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION."
> 
> Sure seems to me like your talking out of both sides of your mouth !! :doh:
> 
> By the way, I'm still waiting on answers to my 4 previous question !! :nixon:
> 
> Whoops just make that 3 questions, turns out this one ... "2. What if I posted, let's say what I would call very questionable information about one of your Deer Dog Hunting brethern, would you investigate it and get back to us with a response, since you seem to think that you Deer Dog Folks can police your own ranks ???"
> ... was actually you !! roflmao :mg:
> 
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Nothing would be gain by bantering back and forth with you. I already know your position and how you feel about it. Thanks for your opinion.


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## Hokieman

john M. Morse, Jr. 

Dec 6, 07 - 2:57 PM VGIF Group Participant 

I attended one of the VGIF Focus Group Meetings in Emporia on December 3, 2007. The meeting was comprised of 3 moderators from Virginia Tech, 17 deer houndsmen from the Southeast region of the State, and one sharp as a tack houndswoman. We were questioned in very general terms about our basic hunting backgrounds, and provided information as to "what dog hunting means to us". I can assure everyone that the overall message of how important dog hunting is to us was delievered appropriately and completly. 

Despite this, I and several otehrs whom I have spoken to continue to have an ever increasing skepticism of this entire process and its ultimate goal. With this in mind, I strongly urge all supporters of any form of dog hunting to become a member of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, and its political action committe, Commonwealth SportsMen's Alliance. I have had contact with H. Kirby Burch of this group, and am very impressed with his depth of knowledge regarding this situtation (please refer to the post of Derick Ratcliffe dated 11/28/07 for a statement by Mr. Burch). 

At any rate, I intend to work at organizing all hound hunters in the Chesapeake/Virginia Beach area. Please feel free to contact me regarding this effort. 

I'm sure you agree this is worth our time, money and effort.

Sincerely, 
John M. Morse, Jr.
3636 Ballahack Rd
Chesapeake, VA 23322
757-421-0822 
Email: [email protected]


Mike Cobb 

Dec 7th, 2007 - 5:41 AM Re: VGIF Group Participant 

I was at the same meeting Mr. Morse. I agree with you 100%. I found it odd how our invitation was worded concerning how "focus group" meetings worked. I believe it said they would ask us questions and see how we responded. I only remember 1 question being asked, the one you mentioned, that broke the ice and discussion got started. I hope that all who read on this board will join VHDA, make the necessary calls to your congressmen, senators, as well as the Gov. and express your displeasure with what is going on. Then write or e mail whomever your board member is on the VDGIF. I feel this is a winnable fight if everyone does what they should and let their voices be heard!


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Nothing would be gain by bantering back and forth with you. I already know your position and how you feel about it. Thanks for your opinion.



In review: you can answer simple questions to clarify your position, you talk out of both sides of your mouth, clam up when the going gets a little rough, and fall back to your old cut & paste routine to avoid answering any direct questions. It sure seems to me that your hurting your cause a heck of a lot more than you'll ever help it. You prolly should just quit while your only but so far behind!! :bolt:



3sheets :bounce:


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## BigBirdVA

I've yet to hear of a bow hunter having issues with a **** hunter at 10pm during bow season. Same goes for bear dogs. There aren't that many in eastern VA anyway. They seem to hunt bear in western VA without any issues. Never heard of any from anyone ever. How do they do that? That brings us back to which sect of dog hunting is causing the problems? The sky is falling is just a ruse to get all dog hunters involved and on your side. If I was a dog hunter in one of the non-problem game species I would be unhappy that so called hunters were possibly going to screw up my hunting with their actions. Another reason to stop all deer dogging. Then the other dog hunting sports can hunt anytime they want to. Just another negative aspect you can thank the dog chasers for.


They read my thoughts...........:thumbs_up


> .....He has already said to "friends" that he will introduce legislation to make it a misdemeanor to leave a dog out for more than 3 days (maybe he will teach us to talk to them so they will come home more quickly)! He says he is going to end the chase seasons on all game during spring turkey, fall archery and muzzle-loading seasons..........


I imagine this is the way it is every time I pack up and head out. Outsmarting game animals is enough of a challenge without worrying about whose and how many dogs will be running interference on any given day. 

Hurry up 2009.


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> At any rate, I intend to work at organizing all hound hunters in the Chesapeake/Virginia Beach area. Please feel free to contact me regarding this effort.
> 
> I'm sure you agree this is worth our time, money and effort.
> 
> Sincerely,
> John M. Morse, Jr.
> 3636 Ballahack Rd
> Chesapeake, VA 23322
> 757-421-0822
> Email: [email protected]


Derick/Hokieman, 


I must admit that I have at least one thing to thank you for, and that's the reminder to always keep being "politically active". I'm sure my delegates would be quite interested in knowing that one of the Virginia Department of Corrections folks was using their VA Goverment email address and obviously some of their "on-job time" to help organize support for the Deer Dog runners. 

Thanks so much, and in 2nd thought keep those "cut & paste" jobs of yours coming !! :jaw:


3sheets :bounce:


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## billy the kid

*What about the dogs*

When I see deer dogs out in the woods , 12 At a time , some look healthy , some look like they need to be put down . If you want to spend hours and hours online MAYBE you should be trying to convince deer dog owners to care for thier dogs rather than ask us to help you allow dogs to run for days and days on private property . ukey:


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## billy the kid

*I don't Belive this statement*



Hokieman said:


> This hound study involves bear, deer, fox and raccoon hound hunters. any new game regulations will affect all hound hunters.


PLEASE gimmie a break , How on god's green earth ,can you make this statement when you don't have any idea what the outcome could possibly be . SCARE TACTIC ukey:, NICE TRY IT"S THE DEER DOG HUNTING IN JEPORDEY


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## billy the kid

*the new vadgif*

sounds like this ALLIANCE wants to run the dgif . From what i've read of your posts , you can't be serious , This alliance wants to oversee the dgif ??? AND YOU WANT MONEY TOO , WHO elected YOU ? WHO is going to oversee YOUR activities ?? DEER DOG HUNTERS IN VA. HAVE DUG THIER OWN GRAVE !!!


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## MTNHunt

jfish said:


> Sure, I can just imagine if every so called "Trophy Hunter" as you put it went out and purchased a trapping lic. 2 dozen leg hold traps and followed the game laws regarding trapping on their land, based on your post you would not have anything to say about it. Yeah Right, I bet when most of your hounds or at least those that make it back onto your property come back limping you would go bat ****. Well, thats how I feel when deer hounds ruin my still hunting.. But wait! it's legal, it's Va Heritage, you just don't like what I am legally doing... how dare you complain?? Maybe you're right, you do whatever you want to do on your property and I will do whatever I want on mine. If my actions negatively impact you, oh well so be it.. Thats a great attitude toward other Hunters...


jfish,

First of all, the club that I am in has no negative action on others around us. You don't hunt near me or understand anything about what I enjoy doing. They are about 6 clubs around the land that we lease. We all get along, catch each others dogs, every club knows that deer hounds are like personal property. Some deer hunters in the club have 3 and 4 generation hounds from stock that was running deer 20 years ago. So, with that said how can you make a comment like the one above? You can't.

The bottom line is that the only thing I see changing in the hunting community is exactly what the anti-hunters want to see, and that is other hunters fighting with each other and trying to ban ways of legally taking game. Your comment about times are changing is very selfish in that you totally miss the larger picture about what is going on. I am not surpised by your comments, because in your post it's not just about dogs chasing deer on your property, but that you and Bigbird and some others just hate it. It also seems funny that you just started posting? Is BigBird ralling some of his troops? Like I said in a previous post, the clubs around you could fence the whole area in around where they hunt and you would still complain. Look at California and the new laws pasted about the use of lead ammo. Crazy isn't it, changing the dog hunting laws or stopping it is just the tip of the iceburg that the anti-hunters want to go after first. It may be a slow start for the anti-hunters, but to them they are planting a seed. I never stated that all dog hunters abide by the law, yet you want to judge my hunting with dogs. I also stated that I don't know the answer, but there needs to be a solution that is fair for both sides. Your solution, is to ban it. To you, that a great solution for maybe your hunting area. What about mine? You walk and talk a big game about hunters rights, yet you and bigbird and others want to get rid of the ways of hunting you don't like. :thumbs_do


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## MTNHunt

Bigbird,

Why don't you tell your new following to fill out there profile or at least put down what they shoot? Do they even bow hunt, or is it a crossbow. First and foremost, I enjoy this archery site because of all the great information that is provided to you as a member, I am finding your ban dog hunting in virginia crusade rather boring lately.


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## deepzak

We'll hit this one at a time


Hokieman said:


> This fight is not about the DGIF study, it is about a Governor that has stacked the Board of DGIF with folks that will do his will regardless of the consequencesThis seems like something call a cabinet, kind of like the presidents. The study is a distraction, a ruse. He has already said to "friends" that he will introduce legislation to make it a misdemeanor to leave a dog out for more than 3 daysWhy would you want to leave a dog, cold and hungry out and about for three days? (maybe he will teach us to talk to them so they will come home more quicklyIts called training, and it has worked very well for years with upland bird dogs and house pets)! He says he is going to end the chase seasons on all game during spring turkey, fall archery and muzzle-loading seasonsThe only people this would directly affect would be the dog hunters, all the other hunters would be quite happy I am sure. His divide and conquer tactics will only work if we Sportsmen don't reach out to non-dog hunting sportsmenBecause "non-dog hunting sportsmen" wont support you?. Remember this is the same Tim Kaine that, as Mayor of the City of Richmond, used taxpayer money to send six bus loads of demonstrators to the "Million Mom March Against Guns" in Washington D.C. When confronted with the facts by the Richmond Times Dispatch, he lied about it. After they stayed on him, Kaine said he did it, but that he had the authority to do so. A week later he finally agreed that he should repay the money! Six months later a group of prominent liberals re-paid the money (but no interest). Money gets spent poorly at all levels of government, but I might let you have this one. On second thought, the money did get repaid, and no, the government does not pay interest on money it collects from the public and pays back.
> 
> This time Tim Kaine is using Sportsmen's license money to fund a bogus study to distract youMonies from licenses are for all things hunting related and of concern to ALL hunters. The study is going to release its findings in 2008 or 2009 in time for the next Governor to deal with. But Tim Kaine already has the conclusions he wants and has told "friends" about themI tell my friends about what I would like to see happen all the time! He will introduce them after this year's elections on November 6. You probably won't hear about them in the newspaper because they will be covered up with budget stories. P.E.T.A. and the Humane Society of the US are the groups behind this effortDo you have supporting documentation of this occuring?. Animal rights activists have made this a major political issue and the Governor is going to listen to his allies.
> 
> The real issue before the Sportsmen of Virginia is the conduct of the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. Do we want an agency that defends hunters and promotes our Heritage instead of treating us as if we are all criminalsYes, but defends ALL hunters and treats those who are criminals as such.? Do we want to support an agency that puts law enforcement ahead of resource stewardship? Millions have been spent for non-game programs, while quail populations have dwindled with little or no funding for research or habitat improvementAgain, see above. Which non-game programs are you refering to?. Wildlife biologists Which ones?have complained that State Parks do a better job of managing wildlife resources than they are allowed to do on Wildlife Management areas! Do we want an agency that spends our license money for their personal use Name names and incidents, because this sounds as if you are saying that they are imbezeling money and is generally wasteful of its financial resources and then cries for more money and higher license fees?
> 
> For too long DGIF has promoted its arrest of game violators Good, they should print their names in the paper for all to seewith press releases telling of more than a hundred criminal violations only to get convictions on four or five charges because the rest were trumped upEver stop to think that maybe a conviction on some crimes is hard because the violation is hard to prove, like tresspassing to retrieve a dog, or intentionally letting your dog run deer on someone elses property (it got away from us and the dog cant read)! DGIF has many dedicated professional staff members that are our friendsWho's friends,?, dog hunter's friends, or ALL hunters friends?, but they are being driven out of the agency by poor treatment and even poorer management!
> 
> We need to return a Department of Game and Inland Fisheries devoted to promoting our sport, in the schools, colleges and universities of Virginia so that mothers raising their children will want to be involved in a wholesome family oriented activity that promotes individual responsibility, self reliance and stewardship of our God given resources.This is simply a plea to pull at some hearts. Mothers who want to be involved in a wholesome family oriented activity.....come on.
> 
> Remember that the Governor proposes, but the General Assembly disposes. This battle will be fought and won or lost in the legislature. On November 6, 2007, every member of the Virginia House of Delegates and the Virginia Senate will be up for grabs. If you aren't registered to vote, do it today, you only have until October 9th. Then go and talk to all candidates running in your area and see where they stand on the issues. If they won't pledge to SPECIFICALLY support your Heritage then don't vote for them! Elect No Strangers. If you don't go in person to see your legislators, phone them. They pay little attention to email messages and none to petitions. Remember to be polite and disagree only when you can be civil or be quiet!I won't even touch this paragraph, because you obviously cut an pasted it from a previous post because it is clearly well after November the 6th
> 
> You all need to do this today! Excuses will not mean much if you have to tell your child or grandchildren that we used to be able to hunt in Virginia.They are not looking at affecting changes to all hunting, just the way deer hunting with dogs is done The people of Great Britain have lost fox hunting, the Australians have lost the right to own guns and we have let them take God from our schools... How much more are you going to let them get away with??? More than Ten Thousand Virginians have joined the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance standing shoulder to shoulder to stop this nonsense.
> 
> H. Kirby Burch
> Chairman Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance
> Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance PAC
> P.O. Box 657
> Powhatan, Virginia 23139
> http://vahda.org


I notice that he doesn't have a phone number listed, too bad, maybe he could answer some of these questions.


----------



## Hokieman

It doesn't matter what I say, You've done formed your opinion. Virginia hunting Dog Alliance isn't just about perserving deer hound hunting but perserving all dog hunting. You can like it or not. I don't care but I as a sportsman have a right to keep others informed of whats taking place and if you feel that by ganging up and making lude comments is going to make me tuck tale and run then you are mistaken. we have over 15,000 members and 270 clubs affillated with us and I too can't wait till 2009. things are in the works and we are moving full speed ahead with our agenda.


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> It doesn't matter what I say, You've done formed your opinion. Virginia hunting Dog Alliance isn't just about perserving deer hound hunting but perserving all dog hunting.


Yeah right, it's the Deer Dog Runners that started this whole mess. 

I believe the term you like to use is "A FEW ROUGE INDIVIDUALS", yet instead of assisting to eliminate that problem, you coach those "ROUGE INDIVIDUALS" by instructing them "IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION." 

:bs: You can twist and spin that anyway you like by calling it "lude comments", but face the fact that you are obviously not part of the solution, you indeed however have become part of the actual problem !! :fuming:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## BigBirdVA

MTNHunt said:


> Bigbird,
> 
> Why don't you tell your new following to fill out there profile or at least put down what they shoot? Do they even bow hunt, or is it a crossbow. First and foremost, I enjoy this archery site because of all the great information that is provided to you as a member, I am finding your ban dog hunting in virginia crusade rather boring lately.


I thought all you needed to post on here was an email addy and a PC. What's the matter new people you can't check up on and try to figure out who they are? 

If it's boring, don't bother to read it. Don't cry to me because you don't agree with it or like what you read. Don't worry when they have the meetings on dog chasers where you can voice your views there will be some people that don't find it boring.


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Yeah right, it's the Deer Dog Runners that started this whole mess.
> 
> I believe the term you like to use is "A FEW ROUGE INDIVIDUALS", yet instead of assisting to eliminate that problem, you coach those "ROUGE INDIVIDUALS" by instructing them "IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION."
> 
> :bs: You can twist and spin that anyway you like by calling it "lude comments", but face the fact that you are obviously not part of the solution, you indeed however have become part of the actual problem !! :fuming:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



No need in explaining. Your comments are always going to be one sided. BAN DOG HUNTING. I tried this before with you on another forum and was taken out of context by you same men. I won't do it again.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I thought all you needed to post on here was an email addy and a PC. What's the matter new people you can't check up on and try to figure out who they are?
> 
> If it's boring, don't bother to read it. Don't cry to me because you don't agree with it or like what you read. Don't worry when they have the meetings on dog chasers where you can voice your views there will be some people that don't find it boring.


The reason current laws and game regulations don't work for you is because you don't push them or the landowner doesn't.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> We'll hit this one at a time
> 
> 
> I notice that he doesn't have a phone number listed, too bad, maybe he could answer some of these questions.


On the website is an email address.


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> No need in explaining. Your comments are always going to be one sided. BAN DOG HUNTING. I tried this before with you on another forum and was taken out of context by you same men. I won't do it again.


You couldn't be more *wrong*!! But unlike yourself, I am all for 100% elimination of the "ROUGE INDIVIDUALS" that run Deer with Dogs, rather than coaching them "TO AVOID TELLING STORIES HOW THEY TRESSPASS"!! :secret: 

You obviously must have missed this part "*it's the Deer Dog Runners that started this whole mess*" of my last post; nowhere did I say that I wanted to BAN DOG HUNTING. You are grasping for straws and the hole you are digging for yourself just keeps getting deeper and deeper; enjoy the view from way down there!! :beat:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> The reason current laws and game regulations don't work for you is because you don't push them or the landowner doesn't.


That's a big pile of BS and you know it. Well the other possibility is you're really that dense. THEY WON'T WRITE A TICKET BECAUSE THEY CAN'T WIN IN COURT WITH THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN. Do I need bigger letters or something? Want to read the emails from the Sargent in charge of the zone I had issues in? I communicated with 3 different people in VDGIF and another person I know called 2 more different people and guess what? We all heard the same thing, there is nothing they can do to stop it with the current regs. And sure bug the land owner, that's a great plan. Heck let's get the mayor and governor a call too while we're at it.

Keep right on with the denial and aversion plan. I'm sure Richmond will go for it.


----------



## Hokieman

This Resolution was passed by Charlotte, Brunswick, Mecklenburg
and Lunenburg Counties and is currently under consideration in at
least seven other Counties.

Ask your Board of Supervisors to help now!

A Resolution of the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors Where as Brunswick County has a tradition of hunting with dogs and specifically with hounds that is as old as the County; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs provides significant economic benefit to the county and her people; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs significantly contributes to the public safety by controlling excess wildlife populations that would otherwise increase automotive collisions, crop and other property damage, and disease control; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs, especially hounds, is practiced on the vast majority of land in Brunswick County and is a source of revenue and a major resource management tool; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs is a wholesome family oriented heritage that teaches self-reliance, individual responsibility, and the values of community and stewardship of our GOD given natural resources; therefore Be it resolved that the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors supports our Heritage of Hunting with Dogs, especially hounds, and opposes any studies or actions on the part of Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries and Virginia Tech as detrimental to that tradition. Be it further resolved that the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors in support of our Heritage of Hunting with Dogs, especially hounds, hereby calls on the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries to work to increase communication with hunters and their hunting organizations and to increase law enforcement of the existing laws.


----------



## billy the kid

MTNHunt said:


> Bigbird,
> 
> Why don't you tell your new following to fill out there profile or at least put down what they shoot? Do they even bow hunt, or is it a crossbow. First and foremost, I enjoy this archery site because of all the great information that is provided to you as a member, I am finding your ban dog hunting in virginia crusade rather boring lately.


I shoot The Apine Silverado Match Grade ,Beman 9.3 w/Speed Hunters , Rage 2 Blade Broadheads , A Vibrachech Omega 8" Stablizer , An Apex Micro 3rd Plane Sight . And I have a CAP Wisker Biscut Deluxe QS Camo Arrow Rest And I shoot with a Stan Super - X Release . Hokieman what kind of set up are you using .


----------



## Hokieman

billy the kid said:


> I shoot The Apine Silverado Match Grade ,Beman 9.3 w/Speed Hunters , Rage 2 Blade Broadheads , A Vibrachech Omega 8" Stablizer , An Apex Micro 3rd Plane Sight . And I have a CAP Wisker Biscut Deluxe QS Camo Arrow Rest And I shoot with a Stan Super - X Release . Hokieman what kind of set up are you using .



I shoot a Pioneer XP 70% let off. copper john sights, whisker biskit micro adj. zebra string, virgin teflon slide, doinker stablizer,flecth hunter release, cx300 with rage broadheads. killed 5 pointer last year and a big doe. Didn't have much luck this year hunting in a cut over with my doghouse blind. seen plenty of first years but nothing mature. how bout you.


----------



## billy the kid

I got a 7 point this year


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> This Resolution was passed by Charlotte, Brunswick, Mecklenburg
> and Lunenburg Counties and is currently under consideration in at
> least seven other Counties.
> 
> Ask your Board of Supervisors to help now!
> 
> A Resolution of the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors Where as Brunswick County has a tradition of hunting with dogs .........


That's great! Take it and .79 ¢ to 7/11 and get some coffee. I read it to say that we're afraid we'll lose some $$$ so please VDGIF don't change a thing lest we all go broke in winter. 

BTW they dreamed this one up in a closed meeting. Now lets see you're not happy with those on the board of VDGIF but if something that you support is created in a closed session it's ok. That's a real hoot Hookieman.

http://www.brunswickco.com/board%20minutes/min10-17-07.doc


----------



## ButchA

billy the kid said:


> sounds like this ALLIANCE wants to run the dgif . From what i've read of your posts , you can't be serious , This alliance wants to oversee the dgif ??? AND YOU WANT MONEY TOO , WHO elected YOU ? WHO is going to oversee YOUR activities ?? *DEER DOG HUNTERS IN VA. HAVE DUG THIER OWN GRAVE !!!*


*SLAM DUNK!!!* :shade:

Hokieman, and other deer dog runners: Sorry guys... I can't support you. Just like how other hunters can't support my push for Sunday hunting. I can fully understand how BigBird and others feel about constantly running into deer doggers or vice-versa. I'm sorry to say, but, honest... you deer dog runners have brought it all on yourselves. You got some serious bad apples among you and they are bringing you all down.

I have had countless hunts ruined by deer dogs. I fought with deer doggers, went toe-to-toe with a few, said some things I shouldn't have said. In the long run, it didn't get any of us anywhere. So, I just gave up and will sit back and let you deer doggers fix your own mess. To the rogue deer doggers and "bad apples": Clean up your act, or it will be cleaned up for you! :mmph:

Anyway, if you really want to know, I am probably one of the luckiest guys around, because I got into a deer camp way out it in the George Wash Nat'l Forest - totally FREE. Bows, rifles, black powder, X-bows, whatever you want to bring. The best part - absolutely *NO* deer dogs. 

Some of you deer doggers need to come out to the other side of the Blue Ridge - WITHOUT the dogs. Come on... Come on out and talk to some of the ol' mountain boys out there. They will tell you exactly how they feel about dogs running deer. It'll get rolled by a .270 rifle! :mg:

In closing: Sorry deer doggers.... But you brought it on yourself.


----------



## BigBirdVA

We can't all go out there to get away. I have free land and a camper to stay in and the whole deal too. It's that 5 hour drive to get away from inconsiderate jerks that hurts. Shame I can't count on my 1.5 hour drive to have a hunt in peace. Right now I'm getting about 30% of my hunts free and clear of others dogs during bow & ML seasons at the club land.


----------



## Hokieman

billy the kid said:


> I got a 7 point this year


Congrats on your buck.


----------



## Hokieman

Law to help dog owners gets test 
December 29, 2007 12:35 am
BY ELLEN BILTZ

BY ELLEN BILTZ 

A new law that makes it illegal to remove a tracking collar from a dog will get tested in Caroline County.

State game officers have charged a Caroline man with violating the new statute and believe it is the first case since the legislature passed it earlier this year.

David Schwartz, 28, of Milford, is charged with removal of a tracking collar and destruction of property, said state conservation officer Ryan Shuler.

Shuler said a legal snare trap was set up on Schwartz's property that a dog wandered in to earlier this month. The dog died, its collar was removed and later destroyed, Shuler said.

During the last General Assembly session, a law was passed making it illegal to remove a dog's tracking collar. The law was backed by the Virginia Hunting Dog Owner's Association.

Bob Kane, the group's president, said he is encouraged to see that state game officers were aware of the new statute and able to bring the charge.

"There were too many of these instances where dogs were being killed and they were never recovered because their collars were removed," Kane said.

If convicted, Schwartz faces a maximum of 12 months in jail and up to $2,500 fines on both charges, which are class 1 misdemeanors.


Ellen Biltz: 540/374-5424
Email: [email protected]


----------



## rattus58

Ok... reading between the lines here, this guy is being charged with removing a dogs collar and destroying it, getting maybe up to a year in jail. Supported by the Virginia Hunting Dog Owner's Association. 

Bob Kane, the group's president, said he is encouraged to see that state game officers were aware of the new statute and able to bring the charge.

"There were too many of these instances where dogs were being killed and they were never recovered because their collars were removed," Kane said.

It is interesting that "too many of these dogs were being killed" and Kane doesn't seem to address that part of it. Most people wouldn't kill any dog, never mind a hunting dog without some real animus. People killing dogs must be really pissed off for some reason, and I wonder why this wasn't addressed by the Group.

Is it that they support action against those that try to regulate the dogs in the only manner they can be regulated when the owners won't, but won't do anything to regulate the owners or the dogs?

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> I thought all you needed to post on here was an email addy and a PC. What's the matter new people you can't check up on and try to figure out who they are?
> 
> If it's boring, don't bother to read it. Don't cry to me because you don't agree with it or like what you read. Don't worry when they have the meetings on dog chasers where you can voice your views there will be some people that don't find it boring.


Basically, I should have replaced the word boring with listening to you is like changing a babies diapers. All your whinning and complaining is one sided, along with jfish. Your solution is not the solution and I look forward to running dogs in 2009:nyah::elf_moon:


----------



## rattus58

So MTNHunt.... 

Question... 

Here in Hawaii you can be charged with nuisance if your dogs tresspass and property damage if they injure farm animals, and you can also be charged for not having control of your animals. What recourse do the landowners of whom your dogs may tresspass have? Is there a $1,000 fine or a year in jail for dog owners too?

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## ButchA

MTNHunt said:


> ...and I look forward to running dogs in 2009:nyah::elf_moon:


Even when I'm bowhunting on a Sunday? :wink:

_(Hint: according to rumors from deep inside closed doors in both Richmond, VA and Raleigh, NC there is talk of a joint effort of both states having extremely limited Sunday hunting in 2009)._


----------



## MTNHunt

ButchA said:


> Even when I'm bowhunting on a Sunday? :wink:
> 
> _(Hint: according to rumors from deep inside closed doors in both Richmond, VA and Raleigh, NC there is talk of a joint effort of both states having extremely limited Sunday hunting in 2009)._


No, if it was hunting on Sunday in Virginia during bow season or any other legal deer season, I myself would be doing the same as you hunting with my new 82nd Airborne, breaking it in on some deer! :thumbs_up


----------



## ButchA

Very cool.... I don't want to mis-judge anyone, but from what I understand, a lot of deer doggers don't want Sunday hunting, and that doesn't make any sense to me!


----------



## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> So MTNHunt....
> 
> Question...
> 
> Here in Hawaii you can be charged with nuisance if your dogs tresspass and property damage if they injure farm animals, and you can also be charged for not having control of your animals. What recourse do the landowners of whom your dogs may tresspass have? Is there a $1,000 fine or a year in jail for dog owners too?
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


There is no running at large law in most counties in VA. Just in city areas. 

The reason the dog collar law came into being is an interesting story too. A card carrying peta member(s) picked up a sheriff's hunting dog that had a tracking collar on it. They removed the collar and threw it away and took the dog in their peta van. The sheriff was in his patrol car and pulled them over and got his dog back. First I want to know why a deer hound was out running deer in the non-chase season? This was an illegal act in itself. Gee how come our law enforcement officer wasn't asked what was up with that? That's how ingrained the dog chasers disregard for the law is. A LEO doesn't see anything wrong with doing it. And that brings us to why people dirt nap them. They're at the end of their rope and have no way to stop dogs running out of season on their land. That's why this is such a heated topic. 

And MutnHtr don't worry, in 2009 I'll be out there too. :dead: :dog1:


----------



## MTNHunt

rattus58 said:


> So MTNHunt....
> 
> Question...
> 
> Here in Hawaii you can be charged with nuisance if your dogs tresspass and property damage if they injure farm animals, and you can also be charged for not having control of your animals. What recourse do the landowners of whom your dogs may tresspass have? Is there a $1,000 fine or a year in jail for dog owners too?
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


In all Virginia counties there is a leash law during the spring time in the counties. In the cities there are leash laws all the time. It is listed in the game laws the exact dates. Also, with the recent mauling of a person by a pit-bull, a new law was created in Virginia that pertains to dangerous animals permitted to roam freely. The majority of farm animals in Virginia are killed by house pets and wild dogs that people have dropped out or have no control over. My brother is a police officer in Powhatan County (12 years) and I have rarely heard him talk about a deer hound that is owned by a hunter destroying livestock. Not to say it can't happen. However, they have enough problems with house pets that roam and are violent. To group all dog under this, then you are classifing two totally different types of dogs.

In my experience with deer dogs, the majority of the dogs are only concerned about running deer. That is what they are trained to do, the people who own them spend alot of money to feed and take care of all year. Dog Hunters want to retrieve their dogs because of this, they don't want them out running for fear of being lost or hit by a car. Alot of times only the hunter that feeds and raises the deerhound can only retrieve there dogs, some dogs will avoid at all means of being caught by other hunters. Thats why most clubs or the deerhound hunters have bought exspensive tracking equipment to retrieve the dogs. The picture that some posters on here want you to think to further the banning of deerhounds is purely because they hate hunting with dogs and that the deerhoundsman is lawbreaker and a road running trespasser and have wild attack dogs. That is just plain wrong. Yes, they are certain individuals who will always break the law, but that is with any type of way you hunt. They need to be dealt with and punished. I have never disagreed with anyone on this. 

A landowner can can call the local dog catcher, report it to the Gw, call the local sheriffs office, etc, etc. Maybe Hokieman can shed some light on a law in paticular that protects livestock, because I am sure that it is something in Virginia Code that protects livestock damage.


----------



## MTNHunt

ButchA said:


> Very cool.... I don't want to mis-judge anyone, but from what I understand, a lot of deer doggers don't want Sunday hunting, and that doesn't make any sense to me!


That is the perception that the anti-dog hunter wants you to believe, I can only speak for the people I know and hunt with and they wouldn't mind it. Keep in mind, I enjoy all types of hunting and I hunt all the deer seasons and some other game animals, to me hunting on Sunday would only help with families that can't take there kids hunting on Saturday because of work or they themselves would get more time to spend outdoors. I am blessed in that I have a job where I can hunt every saturday, some can't. I truly believe that hunters should respect each other and not divide from within. This whole hunting world would be alot better place if people didn't dwell in all the negative things (i.e. your ethics beat up my ethics, I don't shoot does, I only kill 130 and above bucks, etc. etc)) and let other hunt legally how they like too. If you really think about the study that is going on, why on earth would the VDIGF appoint to the team anti-hunters? Only to be politically correct? Maybe, but take a look at whats is happening in states such as Califorinia. The lead ammo ban and fingerprinting bullets is an outcome of being politically correct. We all need to set back and take a look at the big picture and not just at whats in it for me in my lifetime.

Thats my $0.02 cents.

Oh, p.s. Bigbird I don't hunt with a crossbow, however you would never hear me bashing you for what you can legally now do in Virginia.


----------



## MTNHunt

That's a very nice buck! Congrats.




billy the kid said:


> I got a 7 point this year


----------



## Hokieman

MTNHunt said:


> In all Virginia counties there is a leash law during the spring time in the counties. In the cities there are leash laws all the time. It is listed in the game laws the exact dates. Also, with the recent mauling of a person by a pit-bull, a new law was created in Virginia that pertains to dangerous animals permitted to roam freely. The majority of farm animals in Virginia are killed by house pets and wild dogs that people have dropped out or have no control over. My brother is a police officer in Powhatan County (12 years) and I have rarely heard him talk about a deer hound that is owned by a hunter destroying livestock. Not to say it can't happen. However, they have enough problems with house pets that roam and are violent. To group all dog under this, then you are classifing two totally different types of dogs.
> 
> In my experience with deer dogs, the majority of the dogs are only concerned about running deer. That is what they are trained to do, the people who own them spend alot of money to feed and take care of all year. Dog Hunters want to retrieve their dogs because of this, they don't want them out running for fear of being lost or hit by a car. Alot of times only the hunter that feeds and raises the deerhound can only retrieve there dogs, some dogs will avoid at all means of being caught by other hunters. Thats why most clubs or the deerhound hunters have bought exspensive tracking equipment to retrieve the dogs. The picture that some posters on here want you to think to further the banning of deerhounds is purely because they hate hunting with dogs and that the deerhoundsman is lawbreaker and a road running trespasser and have wild attack dogs. That is just plain wrong. Yes, they are certain individuals who will always break the law, but that is with any type of way you hunt. They need to be dealt with and punished. I have never disagreed with anyone on this.
> 
> A landowner can can call the local dog catcher, report it to the Gw, call the local sheriffs office, etc, etc. Maybe Hokieman can shed some light on a law in paticular that protects livestock, because I am sure that it is something in Virginia Code that protects livestock damage.



§ 3.1-796.116. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry. 

It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog. 

Any animal control officer who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock or poultry shall be empowered to seize such dog solely for the purpose of examining such dog in order to determine whether it committed any of the depredations mentioned herein. Any animal control officer or other person who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock, or committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section, shall apply to a magistrate of the county, city or town wherein such dog may be, who shall issue a warrant requiring the owner or custodian, if known, to appear before a general district court at a time and place named therein, at which time evidence shall be heard. If it shall appear that the dog is a livestock killer, or has committed any of the depredations mentioned in this section, the district court shall order that the dog be (i) killed immediately by the animal control officer or other officer designated by the court or (ii) removed to another state which does not border on the Commonwealth and prohibited from returning to the Commonwealth. Any dog ordered removed from the Commonwealth which is later found in the Commonwealth shall be ordered by a court to be killed immediately. 

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.85; 1985, c. 385; 1987, c. 488; 1990, c. 222; 1993, c. 977; 1998, c. 817.)


----------



## ButchA

MTNHunt said:


> If you really think about the study that is going on, why on earth would the VDIGF appoint to the team anti-hunters? Only to be politically correct?


Bingo! From my crusade to try to bring Virginia into the 21st century (end the stupid ban on Sunday hunting), I can tell you wholeheartedly, that the DGIF and the General Assembly want to include *everybody* in their research about lifting the ban on Sunday hunting. Not soley the hunters. They also look at churches, land owners, farmers, horse back riders, hikers, tree huggers, and even the granola eatin' ******* and PETA people!!!!  :mmph:

Anyway, running hound dogs after deer is just not my thing. If you and others like it, that's fine. I would just caution the dog runners to use some good judgement regarding land owners and property boundries. It's the same as them cautioning me about hunting up in the mountains and steep ridges. I have to be careful and not get myself lost or run into a mama bear and her cub!


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> § 3.1-796.116. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.
> 
> It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.
> 
> Any animal control officer who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock or poultry shall be empowered to seize such dog solely for the purpose of examining such dog in order to determine whether it committed any of the depredations mentioned herein. Any animal control officer or other person who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock, or committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section, shall apply to a magistrate of the county, city or town wherein such dog may be, who shall issue a warrant requiring the owner or custodian, if known, to appear before a general district court at a time and place named therein, at which time evidence shall be heard. If it shall appear that the dog is a livestock killer, or has committed any of the depredations mentioned in this section, the district court shall order that the dog be (i) killed immediately by the animal control officer or other officer designated by the court or (ii) removed to another state which does not border on the Commonwealth and prohibited from returning to the Commonwealth. Any dog ordered removed from the Commonwealth which is later found in the Commonwealth shall be ordered by a court to be killed immediately.
> 
> (1984, c. 492, § 29-213.85; 1985, c. 385; 1987, c. 488; 1990, c. 222; 1993, c. 977; 1998, c. 817.)


What the heck does that have to do with anything? Last time I checked I've never seen any dog attack soy beans or corn or even dig up peanuts. Cattle or other livestock is not that prevalent in SE VA. Man you are digging deep on that one. Or we're back at the you just don't get it point again. When was the last time any official shot a dog around here?

Again for those with loss of short term memory, I called Surry County animal control and asked them. They said same thing. They'll say they are chasing foxes and it's legal to chase foxes any day of the year. So until the laws are changed they can chase 365 and no one can get a conviction. Since it's a proven and well known fact ( by all but one ) they can't get a conviction they do not bother. Any part of that you don't get? If they could ticket hunting dogs running without supervision every dog chaser in SE VA would have a pocket full of tickets. The law in Surry is for Michale Vick's dogs. Got it?

No go find some more meaningless BS and cut-n-paste for us.


----------



## BigBirdVA

MTNHunt said:


> ........Oh, p.s. Bigbird I don't hunt with a crossbow, however you would never hear me bashing you for what you can legally now do in Virginia.


If my crossbow ever takes off on it's own an wanders off my land and onto yours while you're bow hunting and chases off deer or disrupts your time in the woods you have my permission to shoot it and dispose of it in any manner you see fit. I'll guarantee you if you do that it won't ever bother you again.


FYI I was against xbows until I actually tried one and found out it was all BS. ( another pack of lies brought about by people that wanted the season all to themselves. now where have I seen a group like that recently? ) Just like if dogs were outlawed you might find you can still hunt deer in SE VA.


----------



## billy the kid

*True Story*

True Story , and this is what bothers me most . A man bought some land to teach his young sons our love of hunting . He and the 3 boys spent time working the land . They posted the land , and built a small driveway . He taught the boys to scout the land for deer sign and to build thier stands in good locations . When opening day of gun season arrived they were all in thier stands early in anticipation of a successful hunt . shortly after daybreak the man heard some vehicles driving down the county road his land is at . Soon he heard the dogs barking and vehicle doors closing and some men lined the road facing into his land . As he heard the dogs bark he knew they were now on his land . With his young sons sitting inside his property line and these men standing on the road with guns looking into his property the man realized his sons were in real danger and left his stand to confront the men . He approached and asked what they think thier doing , one man replied we are looking for our dogs . The man who owned the land took out his cell phone and stated he was calling the authorities and telling them about the danger these men posed to his sons who were just inside the property line . The men QUICKLY got in thier trucks and left . 
Does this story sound like other stories around the state , Very Possible !!I personally sent this story to the Vadgif and I certainly hope they take heed to it's merit . Road hunters like this pose a great danger to law abiding hunters and thier families . NOT TO MENTION THE HUNT WAS RUINED !!


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> What the heck does that have to do with anything? Last time I checked I've never seen any dog attack soy beans or corn or even dig up peanuts. Cattle or other livestock is not that prevalent in SE VA. Man you are digging deep on that one. Or we're back at the you just don't get it point again. When was the last time any official shot a dog around here?
> 
> Again for those with loss of short term memory, I called Surry County animal control and asked them. They said same thing. They'll say they are chasing foxes and it's legal to chase foxes any day of the year. So until the laws are changed they can chase 365 and no one can get a conviction. Since it's a proven and well known fact ( by all but one ) they can't get a conviction they do not bother. Any part of that you don't get? If they could ticket hunting dogs running without supervision every dog chaser in SE VA would have a pocket full of tickets. The law in Surry is for Michale Vick's dogs. Got it?
> 
> No go find some more meaningless BS and cut-n-paste for us.



I was ask by MTNHNT 

" A landowner can can call the local dog catcher, report it to the Gw, call the local sheriffs office, etc, etc. Maybe Hokieman can shed some light on a law in paticular that protects livestock, because I am sure that it is something in Virginia Code that protects livestock damage."


----------



## billy the kid

*What !!!???*



Hokieman said:


> I was ask by MTNHNT
> 
> " A landowner can can call the local dog catcher, report it to the Gw, call the local sheriffs office, etc, etc. Maybe Hokieman can shed some light on a law in paticular that protects livestock, because I am sure that it is something in Virginia Code that protects livestock damage."


Who's Gonna Protect Our Children . HOKIEMAN


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> What the heck does that have to do with anything? Last time I checked I've never seen any dog attack soy beans or corn or even dig up peanuts. Cattle or other livestock is not that prevalent in SE VA. Man you are digging deep on that one. Or we're back at the you just don't get it point again. When was the last time any official shot a dog around here?
> 
> Again for those with loss of short term memory, I called Surry County animal control and asked them. They said same thing. They'll say they are chasing foxes and it's legal to chase foxes any day of the year. So until the laws are changed they can chase 365 and no one can get a conviction. Since it's a proven and well known fact ( by all but one ) they can't get a conviction they do not bother. Any part of that you don't get? If they could ticket hunting dogs running without supervision every dog chaser in SE VA would have a pocket full of tickets. The law in Surry is for Michale Vick's dogs. Got it?
> 
> No go find some more meaningless BS and cut-n-paste for us.



:thumbs_do

Meaningless BS and cut-n-paste?  

I find it very meaningful because Hokieman responded to my question and the question that Rattus58 asked me. Maybe you need a refresher course in reading and need to read the posts before you come up with some more so called stories about the game wardens doing nothing and law enforcement officers creating new dog laws. I am starting to believe that your comments are a "wait a minute lets see if this can create an issue" I am calling you out on this one. State proof of the so called game warden that you say is in a club next to yours and approves of running dogs out of season? Not a hand typed letter by you with some game wardens name and number. Scan the letter with the Virginia seal and posted it. If it was mailed to you like you say, then it was surely printed on VDIGF letterhead, it is standard procedure. I find it hard to believe as you stated before that your in a dog club now and after being in 7 or 8 this one hasn't kicked you out for wanting to ban there legal way of hunting with dogs. Remember, you stated that they break no laws and your a member, but you want to end the right to hunt with dogs in Virginia. Also, state proof of the incident with the deputy sheriff who had one of his own dogs picked up and then prosocuted them (PETA)? I am finding your hatred in your post reaches farther out than just doing away with dog hunters, your post are starting to sound as if you are against the very people that uphold the law on a daily bases. It started with bashing GW, then Law officers, now animal officers...

Your posts and evidence would be a great story for the discovery channel episode of urban myths. Truth or Facts. It looks like to me alot of FACTS have been posted by Pro-Dog Hunters and alot of rumors are being created to further your adgenda. Just like PETA and Anti-hunting groups do. 

You even turned my post around to make it seem like I am against you hunting with your crossbow? Guess what, it's legal and have at it. You have a right to hunt with it. Good Luck.


----------



## billy the kid

MTNHunt said:


> :thumbs_do
> 
> Meaningless BS and cut-n-paste?
> 
> I find it very meaningful because Hokieman responded to my question and the question that Rattus58 asked me. Maybe you need a refresher course in reading and need to read the posts before you come up with some more so called stories about the game wardens doing nothing and law enforcement officers creating new dog laws. I am starting to believe that your comments are a "wait a minute lets see if this can create an issue" I am calling you out on this one. State proof of the so called game warden that you say is in a club next to yours and approves of running dogs out of season? Not a hand typed letter by you with some game wardens name and number. Scan the letter with the Virginia seal and posted it. If it was mailed to you like you say, then it was surely printed on VDIGF letterhead, it is standard procedure. I find it hard to believe as you stated before that your in a dog club now and after being in 7 or 8 this one hasn't kicked you out for wanting to ban there legal way of hunting with dogs. Remember, you stated that they break no laws and your a member, but you want to end the right to hunt with dogs in Virginia. Also, state proof of the incident with the deputy sheriff who had one of his own dogs picked up and then prosocuted them (PETA)? I am finding your hatred in your post reaches farther out than just doing away with dog hunters, your post are starting to sound as if you are against the very people that uphold the law on a daily bases. It started with bashing GW, then Law officers, now animal officers...
> 
> Your posts and evidence would be a great story for the discovery channel episode of urban myths. Truth or Facts. It looks like to me alot of FACTS have been posted by Pro-Dog Hunters and alot of rumors are being created to further your adgenda. Just like PETA and Anti-hunting groups do.
> 
> You even turned my post around to make it seem like I am against you hunting with your crossbow? Guess what, it's legal and have at it. You have a right to hunt with it. Good Luck.


ARE YOU DRINKING RIGHT NOW !! SOUNDS CRAZY !!! WHAT ABOUT THE DANGERS TO OUR CHILDERN I SPOKE ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BigBirdVA

This first article says the owner of the dog was both sheriff and an animal control officer whose dog was chasing white tail foxes. So much for calling animal control huh? And so much for dogs running at large laws. Check the date, October 25th was the Wednesday it happened. Is deer chase season in then? Nope, another illegal out screwing up archery season for someone. Again just goes to show how even those in the legal system have no regard for chase laws. They know they can't be convicted.

I'm not bashing, I'm telling it like it is. 

http://www.yourish.com/2003/06/27/3362



> A motorist who saw the women pick up the dog called Southampton County Deputy Sheriff J.T. Cooke Jr., an animal control officer for the county. Cooke found the van a few minutes later and discovered his Walker hound in the back.
> 
> Cooke testified that he had let out several of his hounds the night before to chase foxes, and one failed to return. The dog carried dye markings of numbers on its side and “JT” on its hip and wore a neon yellow collar bearing Cooke’s name and cell phone number, the deputy said.


This is the other local article on it in the Pilot.


> Two PETA workers charged with abducting hunting dog
> Posted to: Crime
> 
> © October 27, 2006
> 
> By MATTHEW JONES
> The Virginian-Pilot
> 
> NORFOLK - Two employees from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals have been charged with abducting a hunting dog in Southampton County.
> 
> About 10 a.m. Wednesday, a witness reported seeing two women in a vehicle with PETA markings take the dog from the side of Meherrin Road, said Detective Cpl. Richard Morris of the Southampton County Sheriff's Office.
> 
> A witness alerted the county animal control officer - who happened to own the dog. The officer stopped the vehicle soon after and, finding his dog inside, turned the case over to a colleague, Morris said.
> 
> The dog's radio tracking collar had been removed and was found near where the women reportedly picked up the animal, Morris added.
> 
> The two women were released and not charged at the time, Morris said. Arrest warrants were issued later.
> 
> Morris identified the two as Carrie Beth Edwards, 26, of Hampton Boulevard, Norfolk, and Andrea Florence Benoit, 25, of Henwick Court, Chesapeake.
> 
> Each has been charged with grand larceny and petty larceny for taking the dog and radio collar, respectively.
> 
> The two women are expected to surrender at the sheriff's office today, Morris said.
> 
> PETA issued a statement Thursday saying the two had done nothing wrong.
> 
> "They found a dog alongside a busy highway and picked her up for her own safety," the statement read. "That's what we tell everyone to do when they encounter strays - stop and assist."
> 
> The statement said the women were calling in the dog's tag numbers to the PETA office to help find the owner when they were approached by the officer who owned the dog, which they immediately turned over.
> 
> There is no leash law in Southampton County, Morris said, so dogs are allowed to run free.  PETA said its workers did not know this, adding that this law "needs to be changed for the animals' own safety."


----------



## MTNHunt

billy the kid said:


> ARE YOU DRINKING RIGHT NOW !! SOUNDS CRAZY !!! WHAT ABOUT THE DANGERS TO OUR CHILDERN I SPOKE ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!!


My response wasn't a response to your post, it was a response to bigbirds. And no I do not drink, look at my profile. I don't drink or smoke, however I do like my skoal. In since your posts are all in capital letters, don't reply to me again in this manner as it is offensive. Since you are new read the rules please.

As to your post, the unlawful trespassers need to be prosecuted by the full extent of the law. Looking for dogs and hunting other people property is clearly obivious to law enforcement officers. I hope the father wrote liscenses numbers down or filed a police report with helpful information. Many game wardens will gladly check up on property that is being poached.


----------



## billy the kid

MTNHunt said:


> My response wasn't a response to your post, it was a response to bigbirds. And no I do not drink, look at my profile. I don't drink or smoke, however I do like my skoal. In since your posts are all in capital letters, don't reply to me again in this manner as it is offensive. Since you are new read the rules please.
> 
> As to your post, the unlawful trespassers need to be prosecuted by the full extent of the law. Looking for dogs and hunting other people property is clearly obivious to law enforcement officers. I hope the father wrote liscenses numbers down or filed a police report with helpful information. Many game wardens will gladly check up on property that is being poached.


EGGS ARE POACHED , POEPLE ARE VIOLATED !!! And you neen to check your spelling.!


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> This first article says the owner of the dog was both sheriff and an animal control officer whose dog was chasing white tail foxes. So much for calling animal control huh? And so much for dogs running at large laws. Check the date, October 25th was the Wednesday it happened. Is deer chase season in then? Nope, another illegal out screwing up archery season for someone. Again just goes to show how even those in the legal system have no regard for chase laws. They know they can't be convicted.
> I'm not bashing, I'm telling it like it is.
> 
> http://www.yourish.com/2003/06/27/3362
> 
> 
> This is the other local article on it in the Pilot.


Bigbird,

They are many fox hunters who also deer hunt with dogs. No laws were violated by the dog owner and there are no facts in the article to prove otherwise. This is merely you twisting the story to make it seem that the hunter inwhich happens to be in law enforcement was breaking the law.:sad: You added the spin on deer chasing with dogs. Check the fox chase season with dogs in the Virginia Game laws, it is an open season statewide without the use of a firearm or weapon. So let me see, now it is in your adgenda to stop chasing foxes with dogs? Do you understand why Hokieman want to unite the entire dog hunting community, it is not rocket science, people like yourself just hate dogs being used legally to hunt any game animals. 

I hope that all the charges stick and the two women are proven guilty. It sure looks that way to me, why not call the owner of the dog? Why take the collar off, it is not there property. It has the owners name clearly stated on the collar? It definately looks to me because of their beliefs they were purposely trying to steal the dog because they disapproved of of its us as a tool to chase game animals. Most of all please tell me that you yourself as a hunter don't side with the PETA organization that if it had it way they would have us hunters eaten rice and soybean burgers.ukey: 

And for the record, PETA's headquarters is located Virginia. I believe in Virginia Beach or Chesapeake. They are up to no good all the time in that area of the state.


----------



## deepzak

I was just looking around on the VDGIF website. Did everyone know that it is illegal to run dogs on deer during any archery or muzzleloader season. In Virginia Beach, Chesapeake and suffolk(east of the Dismal Swamp line) archery season runs from 6 OCT to 16 NOV. Firearms season (when you can run dogs) is from 1 OCT to 30 NOV. So that means that by VDGIF regulations, people running dogs in those counties can only run them from 17 NOV to 30 NOV. I know I have seen people running dogs in those counties when they legally should not have been.

As far as training dogs goes (here is my contribution to the cut and paste):

Training Dogs
The training of dogs on live wild animals is considered hunting and is unlawful during the closed season except as noted below.
You must have a valid hunting license while training dogs on live wild animals. 
You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and non-migratory game birds on private lands and Quantico Marine Reservation. Participants shall have no weapons other than starter pistols in their possession and no wild animals shall be taken. Weapons may be in possession when training dogs on captive raised and properly marked mallards and pigeons so that they may be immediately shot or recovered, except on Sunday. 
You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and nonmigratory game birds on Ft. A.P. Hill the months of September and February. Participants may only have starter pistols in their possession. No captive reared birds may be released. 
You may train dogs on National Forest or Department-owned lands only during authorized training seasons that specifically permit these activities. 
You may train dogs on quail on designated portions of the Amelia Wildlife Management Area (WMA), Chester F. Phelps WMA, Chickahominy WMA and Dick Cross WMA from September 1 to the day prior to the opening date of the quail hunting season, both dates inclusive. No weapons other than starter pistols may be in possession, and pen-raised birds may not be released. 
Pen-raised quail may be released at any time on private land with landowner permission. However, except on shooting preserves, birds can only be shot during the regular quail season. Regular bag limits apply. 
You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and nonmigratory game birds on the Weston WMA from September 1 thru March 31, both dates inclusive. Participants in this dog training season shall have no weapons other than starter pistols in their possession, shall not release pen-raised birds, and must comply with all regulations and laws pertaining to hunting. No game shall be taken. 

Doesnt say anything about running dogs on fox outside of the open season (ends 29 FEB). That means dogs should not be out and about during Spring Gobbler season.

Virginia Beach has animal control laws that preclude dogs from running loose without a leash and direct supervision. They also have ordance for animals who are a nuciaence. Did you also know that in VB that you are not allowed to own more than 4 dogs without a kennel license and that each dog must be licensed by the city as well as have rabies vaccinations by a licensed Veternarian?

You can bet that the next time I catch a dog where it is not supposed to be, these questions will be asked to the police officer before the owner of the dog gets his "property" back. If they are in violation, I will push to my utmost that the offender be ticketed.

I say this not because I am totally against people hunting with dogs, I am just sick and tired of having my hunt ruined by others who willfully disregard the law and abuse loopholes Since those people cannot police themselves, I will try to use the existing laws to my advantage.


----------



## MTNHunt

billy the kid said:


> EGGS ARE POACHED , POEPLE ARE VIOLATED !!! And you neen to check your spelling.!


Yeah, Yeah, check yours to :nyah:....poeple... Huh...people..yeah 

I don't know how to spell poached, because I don't practice it. And I sure didn't win many spelling bee's in school. 

Here is a tip for you since your new, you will spend all your time correcting spelling on here, because alot of poeple I meant people spell terrible.:wink:


----------



## bkjastrebsky

*Deer hunting with dogs*

It seems alot of the problems with this subject is dogs running on other peoples property. Hunting with dogs is a big past time in the south and I don't see it going away in the near future. But what I wanted to say was if the problem some of yal have is dogs running on private property as soon as one of my dogs learns to read and can tell what the sign on that tree says I will let yal know. Until then the dogs are gonna run on property and its gonna be something you live with just like the last 150 years or however long orginized hunts with dogs has been in Virginia.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Lets see people let dogs out at night and have no idea where they are so the dogs can run "foxes". Now what's wrong with that picture? :crazy: Nice try but we all know the game. Every dog from Jan 5th or so until Nov 17th or so is a fox hound. Never seen a deer hound until opening day. Don't believe me just let the GW ask them and they're all fox hounds.

Add that one in for the 4th biggest lie.


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> Lets see people let dogs out at night and have no idea where they are so the dogs can run "foxes". Now what's wrong with that picture? :crazy: Nice try but we all know the game. Every dog from Jan 5th or so until Nov 17th or so is a fox hound. Never seen a deer hound until opening day. Don't believe me just let the GW ask them and they're all fox hounds.
> 
> Add that one in for the 4th biggest lie.


You left out a couple of words in the ending statement...(in my opinion.):wink:


----------



## rattus58

bkjastrebsky said:


> It seems alot of the problems with this subject is dogs running on other peoples property. Hunting with dogs is a big past time in the south and I don't see it going away in the near future. But what I wanted to say was if the problem some of yal have is dogs running on private property as soon as one of my dogs learns to read and can tell what the sign on that tree says I will let yal know. Until then the dogs are gonna run on property and its gonna be something you live with just like the last 150 years or however long orginized hunts with dogs has been in Virginia.


Something you live with... not at all... People eventually get tired of being abused. If the law doesn't solve the problem by prosecuting with meaningful penalties, then people will resort to the next best thing, hopefully a bullet instead of paraquat or anti-freeze...

Aloha....  :beer:


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> I was just looking around on the VDGIF website. Did everyone know that it is illegal to run dogs on deer during any archery or muzzleloader season. In Virginia Beach, Chesapeake and suffolk(east of the Dismal Swamp line) archery season runs from 6 OCT to 16 NOV. Firearms season (when you can run dogs) is from 1 OCT to 30 NOV. So that means that by VDGIF regulations, people running dogs in those counties can only run them from 17 NOV to 30 NOV. I know I have seen people running dogs in those counties when they legally should not have been.
> 
> As far as training dogs goes (here is my contribution to the cut and paste):
> 
> Training Dogs
> The training of dogs on live wild animals is considered hunting and is unlawful during the closed season except as noted below.
> You must have a valid hunting license while training dogs on live wild animals.
> You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and non-migratory game birds on private lands and Quantico Marine Reservation. Participants shall have no weapons other than starter pistols in their possession and no wild animals shall be taken. Weapons may be in possession when training dogs on captive raised and properly marked mallards and pigeons so that they may be immediately shot or recovered, except on Sunday.
> You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and nonmigratory game birds on Ft. A.P. Hill the months of September and February. Participants may only have starter pistols in their possession. No captive reared birds may be released.
> You may train dogs on National Forest or Department-owned lands only during authorized training seasons that specifically permit these activities.
> You may train dogs on quail on designated portions of the Amelia Wildlife Management Area (WMA), Chester F. Phelps WMA, Chickahominy WMA and Dick Cross WMA from September 1 to the day prior to the opening date of the quail hunting season, both dates inclusive. No weapons other than starter pistols may be in possession, and pen-raised birds may not be released.
> Pen-raised quail may be released at any time on private land with landowner permission. However, except on shooting preserves, birds can only be shot during the regular quail season. Regular bag limits apply.
> You may train dogs during daylight hours on rabbits and nonmigratory game birds on the Weston WMA from September 1 thru March 31, both dates inclusive. Participants in this dog training season shall have no weapons other than starter pistols in their possession, shall not release pen-raised birds, and must comply with all regulations and laws pertaining to hunting. No game shall be taken.
> 
> Doesnt say anything about running dogs on fox outside of the open season (ends 29 FEB). That means dogs should not be out and about during Spring Gobbler season.
> 
> Virginia Beach has animal control laws that preclude dogs from running loose without a leash and direct supervision. They also have ordance for animals who are a nuciaence. Did you also know that in VB that you are not allowed to own more than 4 dogs without a kennel license and that each dog must be licensed by the city as well as have rabies vaccinations by a licensed Veternarian?
> 
> You can bet that the next time I catch a dog where it is not supposed to be, these questions will be asked to the police officer before the owner of the dog gets his "property" back. If they are in violation, I will push to my utmost that the offender be ticketed.
> 
> I say this not because I am totally against people hunting with dogs, I am just sick and tired of having my hunt ruined by others who willfully disregard the law and abuse loopholes Since those people cannot police themselves, I will try to use the existing laws to my advantage.



Yes. That is exactly what you should do. Thank You


----------



## swampfox

rattus58 said:


> Something you live with... not at all... People eventually get tired of being abused. If the law doesn't solve the problem by prosecuting with meaningful penalties, then people will resort to the next best thing, hopefully a bullet instead of paraquat or anti-freeze...
> 
> Aloha....  :beer:


Alot of times only the hunter that feeds and raises the deerhound can only retrieve there dogs, some dogs will avoid at all means of being caught by other hunters. 


The above 2 posts and quote about sums it up IMO.


----------



## deepzak

bkjastrebsky said:


> It seems alot of the problems with this subject is dogs running on other peoples property. Hunting with dogs is a big past time in the south and I don't see it going away in the near future. But what I wanted to say was if the problem some of yal have is dogs running on private property as soon as one of my dogs learns to read and can tell what the sign on that tree says I will let yal know. Until then the dogs are gonna run on property and its gonna be something you live with just like the last 150 years or however long orginized hunts with dogs has been in Virginia.


If everyone had an attitude like you dude, we would still have slavery. After all, it was tradition and something people like you told others to "just learn to live with" and it was around for about 150 years. You don't have to teach your dog to read, but dogs can differentiate color and know what a fence is. What you really need to do is called TRAIN your dog. I know I would be all in favor of something like a personal fine for the owner of $1,000.00 per dog per incident of tresspassing that goes into the landowners pocket, after 2 incidents that person is no longer allowed to own dogs and if they are caught with dogs they face something like a $20,000.00 fine and 10 years in jail. It may sound like a heavy fine, but sometimes that is what is needed to deter people.


----------



## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> Something you live with... not at all... People eventually get tired of being abused. If the law doesn't solve the problem by prosecuting with meaningful penalties, then people will resort to the next best thing, hopefully a bullet instead of paraquat or anti-freeze...
> 
> Aloha....  :beer:


You hit the nail on the head with that one. It gets old real quick.


----------



## Hokieman

Editorial: Hunting for truth about hounds
A Virginia study of hound hunting and the conflicts it causes will allow informed debate.

Hunters sometimes are a paranoid bunch. The slightest hint of scrutiny sets them off defending tradition against encroaching modernism. It is therefore no surprise that a Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries review of hunting with hounds has hunters reflexively on the attack.

If they would take a minute to think about it, though, they might see that the study is the best chance to ease tensions between hound hunters and other residents of the commonwealth.

State game officials initiated the "Hunting with Hounds in Virginia: A Way Forward" project last summer when they suspected complaints about hound hunters were on the rise. With help from Virginia Tech, the department is studying complaints and speaking to stakeholders on all sides. It will try to determine what, if any, problems exist and how to fix them equitably.

DGIF fielded more than 900 calls during the last two hunting seasons, but the full scope of the problem remains undetermined because many calls about troublesome hunters go to local sheriffs. Moreover, the legitimacy of most complaints remains unknown.

Hunters should welcome research that would clarify the situation. Without it, an increasing number of citizen complaints about what are most likely a few troublemakers eventually will instigate General Assembly action. Better that policymakers have facts on hand for that debate and carefully considered recommendations from game officials.

One of the most common complaints arises from an oddity of Virginia law. Hounds now may run across private property and hunters may enter -- even past posted "No Trespassing" signs -- to retrieve them. Many people understandably do not want strangers and their animals traipsing across their land without permission.

It is a conflict between two of the commonwealth's core principles. Virginians sanctified the right to hunt in their constitution, but they also hold private property rights sacred. Hunting should not trump the fundamental right of citizens to be secure on their property.

For their final recommendations, DGIF officials might consider hound-hunting rules used in other southern states. In Georgia, for example, hound hunting is permitted on large private tracts with the owners' permission and on leased lands. That approach, according to Peach State officials, has tremendously reduced incidents of dogs straying onto private property.

First, though, Virginia needs the facts. Hunters can either help make sure the hound report includes their perspective or complain about conspiracies and go unheard


----------



## 3sheets

*Hey*

Hokieman when you post those cut & paste jobbies of yers, please at least be considerate enough to include from what newspaper (or whatever), date, etc. they came from, ok??? :dontknow:

Also, would it be safe to say that saving "Deer Dog Hunting" is an "agenda" of yours?? :set1_fishing:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Editorial: Hunting for truth about hounds
> A Virginia study of hound hunting and the conflicts it causes will allow informed debate.
> 
> Hunters sometimes are a paranoid bunch. The slightest hint of scrutiny sets them off defending tradition against encroaching modernism. It is therefore no surprise that a Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries review of hunting with hounds has hunters reflexively on the attack.
> 
> If they would take a minute to think about it, though, they might see that the study is the best chance to ease tensions between hound hunters and other residents of the commonwealth.
> 
> State game officials initiated the "Hunting with Hounds in Virginia: A Way Forward" project last summer when they suspected complaints about hound hunters were on the rise. With help from Virginia Tech, the department is studying complaints and speaking to stakeholders on all sides. It will try to determine what, if any, problems exist and how to fix them equitably.
> 
> DGIF fielded more than 900 calls during the last two hunting seasons, but the full scope of the problem remains undetermined because many calls about troublesome hunters go to local sheriffs. Moreover, the legitimacy of most complaints remains unknown.
> 
> Hunters should welcome research that would clarify the situation. Without it, an increasing number of citizen complaints about what are most likely a few troublemakers eventually will instigate General Assembly action. Better that policymakers have facts on hand for that debate and carefully considered recommendations from game officials.
> 
> One of the most common complaints arises from an oddity of Virginia law. Hounds now may run across private property and hunters may enter -- even past posted "No Trespassing" signs -- to retrieve them. Many people understandably do not want strangers and their animals traipsing across their land without permission.
> 
> It is a conflict between two of the commonwealth's core principles. Virginians sanctified the right to hunt in their constitution, but they also hold private property rights sacred. Hunting should not trump the fundamental right of citizens to be secure on their property.
> 
> For their final recommendations, DGIF officials might consider hound-hunting rules used in other southern states. In Georgia, for example, hound hunting is permitted on large private tracts with the owners' permission and on leased lands. That approach, according to Peach State officials, has tremendously reduced incidents of dogs straying onto private property.
> 
> First, though, Virginia needs the facts. Hunters can either help make sure the hound report includes their perspective or complain about conspiracies and go unheard


Thanks Google-Man for yet another cut-n-paste. I did a Google and came up with 33,500 hits on "hound hunting Virginia". Hope you're not going to paste all of them on here. 

Just wondering what's the point of posting redundant cut-n-paste articles others wrote on here? Seen one dog chaser article you've seen them all.


----------



## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> Hokieman when you post those cut & paste jobbies of yers, please at least be considerate enough to include from what newspaper (or whatever), date, etc. they came from, ok??? :dontknow:
> 
> Also, would it be safe to say that saving "Deer Dog Hunting" is an "agenda" of yours?? :set1_fishing:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Just cut-n-paste the first line on Google like Google-Man does and you'll get it.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/wb/145346

Actually all of this is great. Advance warning of what points they plan on using to justify dog chasing. Gives me time to counter them for when I go to the meetings and get my turn to speak.


----------



## jfish

*Article Origin?*

Although Hokieman and I disagree on most everything I do not discredit or disregard his thoughts just because we tend view things differently. Even if it is a clip and paste the post above made sense and lets face it, most all of us have an agenda, some for, some against. I too would like to know where the article originated from if for no other reason other than follow-up, I don;t discredit what it says actually I thought it was one of the better post regarding this issue. But thats my opinion and we know what they say about opinions. It will take thought and consideration like found in that article to come to a resonable solution. I just hope accurate honest discussion prevails in Richmond, not under handed, looking out for any particular group occurs. Am I being too Unrealistic? Hope not? :set1_STOOGE2:


----------



## Hokieman

jfish said:


> Although Hokieman and I disagree on most everything I do not discredit or disregard his thoughts just because we tend view things differently. Even if it is a clip and paste the post above made sense and lets face it, most all of us have an agenda, some for, some against. I too would like to know where the article originated from if for no other reason other than follow-up, I don;t discredit what it says actually I thought it was one of the better post regarding this issue. But thats my opinion and we know what they say about opinions. It will take thought and consideration like found in that article to come to a resonable solution. I just hope accurate honest discussion prevails in Richmond, not under handed, looking out for any particular group occurs. Am I being too Unrealistic? Hope not? :set1_STOOGE2:


I was also surprised to see it didn't have a name of who wrote it, most I copy and past has newspaper and person who wrote it. This came from roanoke times. Did you know if you sign up for news updates they'll send them too you. of course you did., I have signed up to hundreds of va newspaper to where if some is posted about hound hunting I can post it for the ones who doesn't follow the news.


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> I have signed up to hundreds of va newspaper to where if some is posted about hound hunting I can post it for the ones who doesn't follow the news.


Geeze, aren't we the lucky ones !! lmao 

Since I'm trying to be a small bit nicer, howz bout rewarding that effort by answering my other question:
" Also, would it be safe to say that saving "Deer Dog Hunting" is an "agenda" of yours?? :set1_fishing: " 


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Geeze, aren't we the lucky ones !! lmao
> 
> Since I'm trying to be a small bit nicer, howz bout rewarding that effort by answering my other question:
> " Also, would it be safe to say that saving "Deer Dog Hunting" is an "agenda" of yours?? :set1_fishing: "
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance will lobby agianst any new bill that comes up in the General Assembly that doesn't support dog hunting. weither it is ****, bear, rabbit, fox, squirrell, coyote and deer hunting with dogs.

Political action may include all state and local offices (excluding Federal elections) and will include lobbying the members of the Virginia General Assembly in support of the right to hunt with dogs.


----------



## Hokieman

I found this interesting and well thought out.



Mark Slade said:


> *I don't want to burst anyone's bubble and I am really tired of saying this, but did you know the HSUS President is said to have vowed to end hunting within ten years last month . Did you know the ALF and the ULF both linked to PETA by a U.S. Senator have been linked to over 900 terror crimes . The FBI ranked the two(which are really one group ) as America's number one domestic threat of terrorism .Although most media is biased toward one party or the other . I hope we all understand that to begin . This hound issue is not about hounds as they would like for you to believe but about individual rights . I believe this issue is clouded by Anti hunting group pressure and the money they donate to lawmakers . If you listen to the jargon, they say, just get involved but they only invite certain people excluding Association and club Presidents . Most game officials want to talk about Georgia and Louisiana two pathetic sources that have explosians of outsiders that could care less about hunters rights . Why don't they talk about Mississippi that had the fortitude to turn the issue down flat . Cale Godfrey asked me "What do you expect us to do ignor the rest of the country?" Yes Cale. I am sorry but you told me your wife didn't care for deer hunters running dogs on the lot beside you . Well Cale as long as they are legally hunting ,its your job to get over it . I don't uphold lawbreakers . Charge them if they break the law . I believe being biased you should resign this post on the hound issue and work in another venue of the dgif . You have no place here . I will gladly testify to that also. Several counties have already spoken about the dgif's shananagens . You need to stop destroying Virginia's dept. of game . Get out now. We don't want or need you anymore. There are plenty of qualified wildlife professionals needing great jobs that will understand Virginia and exclude the worthless trouble makers . Excluding our Enforcement division and our gamelands managers we would be much better off if you all resigned forthwith . *


----------



## billy the kid

*happy new year*

we all have our own passionate opinions . but we are also all devoted hunters . I wish everyone Good Prosperity This New Year !! Bad Dog , Bad
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/bobbythekid/*******.jpg


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I found this interesting and well thought out.


You would. More redundant the sky is falling drivel. Yes it's legal. What's legal changes. Just like xbows for years weren't because of the pressure others used to keep them out. Now they are. Same with dogs. They're trying to put pressure on to keep them in. It's long overdue but it needs a revamp. Legal and not legal is constantly being redefined. It's just your turn is all that's happening.

BTW you win!


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## Hokieman

To everyone. I am going to a family gathering for New Years. I won't be back on tonight. I wish everyone a HAPPY NEW YEAR.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Just got this today from one of my wifes animal loving friends. Just another wonderful aspect of dog chasing that gives all hunters a black eye. Many do not know there is a separation among hunters that divides dog chasers from hunters. These people when asked would say "no" to all hunting because they don't know the fine points of the hunting methods out there. They lump all hunters in one lot. It's hard enough to keep them pro hunting, let alone educate them on the different styles of hunting. There may be legitimate reasons the dog is there and skinny but the tight collar is no excuse. The bottom line is this dog is a classic example of what many others view as the typical life of a hunting dog. It brings all hunters down. Again dog chasing is the most visible and problematic aspect of hunting in VA today. Just another aspect no one has touched on in this thread.



> Well 2008 has started off with a bang..(no pun intended) today while
> driving to get some hay I saw a hound standing on the side of highway
> 360..he was skinny and I mean skinny and looked really confused...I slowed
> down and noticed he was holding up his hind leg....I stopped the truck
> and got out and as I approached him , he wagged his tail and tried to
> walk toward me...he collapsed. his left hind leg was dangling, the bone
> was so badly broken ..it was heartbreaking........a young friend was
> with me, we took my jacket and wrapped the dog in it and lifted him into
> my truck, he sighed when he laid down in the back seat... we called Dr.
> XXXXXX in Halifax and we took the dog straight there...he needs surgery
> and shots and help...I have to call Dr will in the morning to see what
> the prognosis is....I told him I wanted himi to save the dog.....there
> was a collar on the hound...so tight it was actually cutting into his
> flesh...I have had hunters tell me the dogs get skinny from
> running...well??? my questions is...why was that collar so tight...seems to me it should be hanging on his neck as skinny as that poor dog is....I named
> him will......he had sheer will to stand on the edge of that highway
> ....he had a strong will to survive to allow perfect strangers to pick him
> up and carry him to a waiting vehicle...the dog was in horrible pain.,
> he was shaking all over.....yet, when I called out to him, he met me
> with a wagging tail....I really need help here folks.. I know I am always asking...but the animals keep on coming.....his vet bill will start at 250.00 and I will need to find him a good forever home...he is sweet and good
> natured.....can you please help me...I really have my hands full at the facility with all the horses and we now have 15 dogs all coming from local
> dumpsters and most are hounds.....we are at capacity...but, I
> could not leave that hound standing there to freeze to death tonight......I know there is one around every corner...if we could all just realize this is has
> to stop...these hounds deserve better, they should not be used for
> hunting and then abandoned when something happens to them....I know they trust, I saw will wag his tail, he had hope. I never have seen so much
> abuse it is disheartening and to me this is abuse. how can anyone think
> it is ok to treat any animal the way most of these hounds are treated???
> Please help me to help will.....he deserves a chance....
> Thanks
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx


Hey Hokieman think the VHDA will spring for the vet bills? If they really want to turn the image of dog chasers around this would be a great opportunity.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Just got this today from one of my wifes animal loving friends. Just another wonderful aspect of dog chasing that gives all hunters a black eye. Many do not know there is a separation among hunters that divides dog chasers from hunters. These people when asked would say "no" to all hunting because they don't know the fine points of the hunting methods out there. They lump all hunters in one lot. It's hard enough to keep them pro hunting, let alone educate them on the different styles of hunting. There may be legitimate reasons the dog is there and skinny but the tight collar is no excuse. The bottom line is this dog is a classic example of what many others view as the typical life of a hunting dog. It brings all hunters down. Again dog chasing is the most visible and problematic aspect of hunting in VA today. Just another aspect no one has touched on in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hokieman think the VHDA will spring for the vet bills? If they really want to turn the image of dog chasers around this would be a great opportunity.



I'm guessing the collar didn't have a name tag. On top of that their going to find the dog a home instead of looking for his original owner. I see several laws broken here. Now if you could give that doctors name and location to see weither or not this is a verifable story or another peta story. I would appreciate it.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I'm guessing the collar didn't have a name tag. On top of that their going to find the dog a home instead of looking for his original owner. I see several laws broken here. Now if you could give that doctors name and location to see weither or not this is a verifable story or another peta story. I would appreciate it.


I emailed back and told of the tracking collar law. The person who passed this along to us was unaware. I also asked what was to become of the dog? They're looking for a home. I'm not dealing directly with the person who found the dog but have their info. It unfortunately isn't another peta story. I do understand there could be other possible reasons for the dog being there. It's also easy to see what the finder assumed as well. I even said if it's a beagle the club I'm in might take it just to give it a home. That's assuming they'll allow it to go back into a hunting situation. It also brings up the dilemma with the real owner. Is he negligent in care? Does he deserve the dog back? Can the AC in that county do anything assuming a law was broken? Hunting dogs fall in a gray area of care that pet owners don't understand. Lots of variables to take into account when this happens.

But no matter how it turns out it's just another dog chaser tale to blacken all hunters eyes.


I got the email of the person who found the dog so I'm going to try to follow this through and see where it goes. I'll post back what I find.


What laws do you see broken here if you don't mind answering?


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I emailed back and told of the tracking collar law. The person who passed this along to us was unaware. I also asked what was to become of the dog? They're looking for a home. I'm not dealing directly with the person who found the dog but have their info. It unfortunately isn't another peta story. I do understand there could be other possible reasons for the dog being there. It's also easy to see what the finder assumed as well. I even said if it's a beagle the club I'm in might take it just to give it a home. That's assuming they'll allow it to go back into a hunting situation. It also brings up the dilemma with the real owner. Is he negligent in care? Does he deserve the dog back? Can the AC in that county do anything assuming a law was broken? Hunting dogs fall in a gray area of care that pet owners don't understand. Lots of variables to take into account when this happens.
> 
> But no matter how it turns out it's just another dog chaser tale to blacken all hunters eyes.
> 
> 
> I got the email of the person who found the dog so I'm going to try to follow this through and see where it goes. I'll post back what I find.
> 
> 
> What laws do you see broken here if you don't mind answering?



1. § 18.2-97.1. Removal of a dog collar; penalty. 

Any person who removes from a dog an electronic or radio transmitting collar without the permission of the owner of the dog and with the intent to prevent or hinder the owner from locating the dog, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Upon a finding of guilt, the court shall order that the defendant pay as restitution the actual value of any dog lost or killed as a result of such removal. The court may also order restitution to the owner for any lost breeding revenues. 

(2007, cc. 484, 721.) 

2. § 18.2-97. Larceny of certain animals and poultry. 

Any person who shall be guilty of the larceny of a dog, horse, pony, mule, cow, steer, bull or calf shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony; and any person who shall be guilty of the larceny of any poultry of the value of $5 dollars or more, but of the value of less than $200, or of a sheep, lamb, swine, or goat, of the value of less than $200, shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-102; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 15; 1966, c. 247; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1981, c. 197.) 


3. § 3.1-796.127. Dogs and cats deemed personal property; rights relating thereto. 

All dogs and cats shall be deemed personal property and may be the subject of larceny and malicious or unlawful trespass. Owners, as defined in § 3.1-796.66, may maintain any action for the killing of any such animals, or injury thereto, or unlawful detention or use thereof as in the case of other personal property. The owner of any dog or cat which is injured or killed contrary to the provisions of this chapter by any person shall be entitled to recover the value thereof or the damage done thereto in an appropriate action at law from such person. 

An animal control officer or other officer finding a stolen dog or cat, or a dog or cat held or detained contrary to law, shall have authority to seize and hold such animal pending action before a general district court or other court. If no such action is instituted within seven days, the animal control officer or other officer shall deliver the dog or cat to its owner. 

The presence of a dog or cat on the premises of a person other than its legal owner shall raise no presumption of theft against the owner, and the animal control officer may take such animal in charge and notify its legal owner to remove it. The legal owner of the animal shall pay a reasonable charge as the local governing body by ordinance shall establish for the keep of such animal while in the possession of the animal control officer. 

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.95; 1987, c. 488; 1988, c. 537; 1998, c. 817.) 



If the dog got lost from the pack while hunting and been out wandering for days this rule doesn't apply. As the dog's condition at time of found would be in poor health due to lack of food and water and lenght of time out.


§ 3.1-796.68. Care of animals by owner; penalty. 

A. Each owner shall provide for each of his companion animals: 

1. Adequate feed; 

2. Adequate water; 

3. Adequate shelter that is properly cleaned; 

4. Adequate space in the primary enclosure for the particular type of animal depending upon its age, size, species, and weight; 

5. Adequate exercise; 

6. Adequate care, treatment, and transportation; and 

7. Veterinary care when needed or to prevent suffering or disease transmission. 

The provisions of this section shall also apply to every pound, animal shelter, or other releasing agency, and every foster care provider, dealer, pet shop, exhibitor, kennel, groomer, and boarding establishment. This section shall not require that animals used as food for other animals be euthanized. 

B. Game and wildlife species shall be cared for in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries by January 1, 1994. 

C. Violation of this section is a Class 4 misdemeanor. 

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.38; 1987, c. 488; 1991, c. 348; 1993, c. 174; 1996, c. 249; 1998, c. 817; 2002, c. 787; 2003, c. 1007.)


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> 1. § 18.2-97.1. Removal of a dog collar; penalty.
> 
> Any person who removes from a dog an electronic or radio transmitting collar without the permission of the owner of the dog and with the intent to prevent or hinder the owner from locating the dog, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Upon a finding of guilt, the court shall order that the defendant pay as restitution the actual value of any dog lost or killed as a result of such removal. The court may also order restitution to the owner for any lost breeding revenues.
> 
> (2007, cc. 484, 721.)
> Wasn't electronic. Tag wasn't readable.
> 
> 2. § 18.2-97. Larceny of certain animals and poultry.
> 
> Any person who shall be guilty of the larceny of a dog, horse, pony, mule, cow, steer, bull or calf shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony; and any person who shall be guilty of the larceny of any poultry of the value of $5 dollars or more, but of the value of less than $200, or of a sheep, lamb, swine, or goat, of the value of less than $200, shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
> 
> (Code 1950, § 18.1-102; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 15; 1966, c. 247; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1981, c. 197.)
> Not larceny or theft if it's abandoned. Obviously if you want something or care about getting it back you mark or create a way to identify it.
> 
> 
> 3. § 3.1-796.127. Dogs and cats deemed personal property; rights relating thereto.
> 
> All dogs and cats shall be deemed personal property and may be the subject of larceny and malicious or unlawful trespass. Owners, as defined in § 3.1-796.66, may maintain any action for the killing of any such animals, or injury thereto, or unlawful detention or use thereof as in the case of other personal property. The owner of any dog or cat which is injured or killed contrary to the provisions of this chapter by any person shall be entitled to recover the value thereof or the damage done thereto in an appropriate action at law from such person.
> 
> An animal control officer or other officer finding a stolen dog or cat, or a dog or cat held or detained contrary to law, shall have authority to seize and hold such animal pending action before a general district court or other court. If no such action is instituted within seven days, the animal control officer or other officer shall deliver the dog or cat to its owner.
> 
> The presence of a dog or cat on the premises of a person other than its legal owner shall raise no presumption of theft against the owner, and the animal control officer may take such animal in charge and notify its legal owner to remove it. The legal owner of the animal shall pay a reasonable charge as the local governing body by ordinance shall establish for the keep of such animal while in the possession of the animal control officer.
> 
> (1984, c. 492, § 29-213.95; 1987, c. 488; 1988, c. 537; 1998, c. 817.)
> 
> Again it was abandoned or no way to identify. Uhhh...... it was taken to a vet for medical care. It's usually dog chasers that shoot wounded or sick hunting dogs or see below........
> 
> If the dog got lost from the pack while hunting and been out wandering for days this rule doesn't apply. As the dog's condition at time of found would be in poor health due to lack of food and water and lenght of time out.
> 
> 
> § 3.1-796.68. Care of animals by owner; penalty.
> 
> A. Each owner shall provide for each of his companion animals:
> 
> 1. Adequate feed;
> 
> 2. Adequate water;
> 
> 3. Adequate shelter that is properly cleaned;
> 
> 4. Adequate space in the primary enclosure for the particular type of animal depending upon its age, size, species, and weight;
> 
> 5. Adequate exercise;
> 
> 6. Adequate care, treatment, and transportation; and
> 
> 7. Veterinary care when needed or to prevent suffering or disease transmission.
> 
> The provisions of this section shall also apply to every pound, animal shelter, or other releasing agency, and every foster care provider, dealer, pet shop, exhibitor, kennel, groomer, and boarding establishment. This section shall not require that animals used as food for other animals be euthanized.
> 
> B. Game and wildlife species shall be cared for in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries by January 1, 1994.
> 
> C. Violation of this section is a Class 4 misdemeanor.
> 
> Proving that wouldn't be too hard given the shape of the animal. Guess it was lucky for the owner it wasn't legible. But then again maybe that's the reason it is.
> 
> (1984, c. 492, § 29-213.38; 1987, c. 488; 1991, c. 348; 1993, c. 174; 1996, c. 249; 1998, c. 817; 2002, c. 787; 2003, c. 1007.)


Here's the reply I got from the finder of the dog.


> the dog i found had a collar, but it was unreadable....and i do think the owner would have shot it or used it for bait.........
> this hound is in pretty bad shape..he is extremely skinny..on a scale of 1-10 10 being best..he is a 2...
> i have another hound that i found impaled on a fence..her front and hind legs were almost severed...her hips were dislocated and she had a hole in her head...she allowed me to pry her out of the fence......i have nother hound i found inside of a dumpster..she could not have jumped into it, it was way to high..she weighed 25 pounds...she now weighs 50.. i have another one that was in the dumpster that had all his teeth knocked out...and on and on.....the other day coming back from halifax i saw a man hit a hound...the dog landed in the ditch...the owner ( a hunter) pulled over ..got out and kicked the dog...he then grabbed it by the collar and dragged it out of the ditch..he removed the collar... the dog was dead.. i flipped out...he was just going to leave that poor dog there to rot....i thought all dogs were considered companion animals and there are laws to protect them......why then are hounds not protected???
> you can use my info and i have plenty more with the vet bills to back them up.....take care rick and let me know what i can do and if you are going to use my info...


 This is exactly why dog chasing is under review. Another black eye hunters do not need. Let me know when you get your can opener and want to look in this can of worms.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Here's the reply I got from the finder of the dog.
> This is exactly why dog chasing is under review. Another black eye hunters do not need. Let me know when you get your can opener and want to look in this can of worms.


Has this person reported it to anyone? like an animal control officer? Does your friend by chance have a picture of the dog or a picture of the tag he/she can share?


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Has this person reported it to anyone? like an animal control officer? Does your friend by chance have a picture of the dog or a picture of the tag he/she can share?


Maybe the licensed vet she took it to has that. Why going to try to get the dog chaser for animal abuse or neglect? LOL


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Maybe the licensed vet she took it to has that. Why going to try to get the dog chaser for animal abuse or neglect? LOL



I am more concern with getting the dog back to the rightful owner. However if owner fails to acknowledge it is his or her dog, I don't see no reason it can't be given to another home, but the dog belongs to the owner who's name is on the tag. A tip you can use a piece of paper and layover the imprint on the back or front and with a pencil color it and the name should be readable.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I am more concern with getting the dog back to the rightful owner. However if owner fails to acknowledge it is his or her dog, I don't see no reason it can't be given to another home, but the dog belongs to the owner who's name is on the tag. A tip you can use a piece of paper and layover the imprint on the back or front and with a pencil color it and the name should be readable.


If the owner was so concerned he should have put more effort into finding it or making sure it had a tag one could read. When they don't have a tracking collar then it's a budget hunter. There is also the possibility the dog was found by the owner, they saw it was hit by a vehicle, tracking collar was removed and left to fend for itself. Typically they're put down when vet bills exceed a certain point. This dog probably hit that with a bill of $250 or so. Unless the dog can be made whole through the abilities of the owner many are not kept around or even given the chance to go somewhere else. And spare me the it isn't like that routine. I've seen it too many times.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> If the owner was so concerned he should have put more effort into finding it or making sure it had a tag one could read. When they don't have a tracking collar then it's a budget hunter. There is also the possibility the dog was found by the owner, they saw it was hit by a vehicle, tracking collar was removed and left to fend for itself. Typically they're put down when vet bills exceed a certain point. This dog probably hit that with a bill of $250 or so. Unless the dog can be made whole through the abilities of the owner many are not kept around or even given the chance to go somewhere else. And spare me the it isn't like that routine. I've seen it too many times.


How do you know he hasn't? How do you know what this hound was doing? He was found by the road so any number of things could of happen. He might have been picked up by someone and dumped there. Someone with your attitude towards hunting dogs. I am trying to help but your looking at the negative side of the issue as always. when your serious about it let me know.


----------



## deepzak

Come on Hokie, 
You know as well as I do (deep down inside) that this dog, if found by it's owner would have been shot because it could not run anymore this year. I saw it happen in Isle of Wight county right along side the road. One of the dogs got clipped by a car and wasn't dead, it could even walk, just not run so the "owner shot it right there and said that it wasn't worth his time". You may not want to admit it on a public forum, but you know it happens all the time.

I have to wounder if the owner identification on the collar was obscured because the dog wasn't registered and didn't have rabies shots like it was supposed to, which would subject the owner to a fine. Just a thought.

As for your statement about the animal laws, I wounder if #7 under § 3.1-796.68. would include administering B-12 shots to keep the dogs running?


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Come on Hokie,
> You know as well as I do (deep down inside) that this dog, if found by it's owner would have been shot because it could not run anymore this year. I saw it happen in Isle of Wight county right along side the road. One of the dogs got clipped by a car and wasn't dead, it could even walk, just not run so the "owner shot it right there and said that it wasn't worth his time". You may not want to admit it on a public forum, but you know it happens all the time.
> 
> I have to wounder if the owner identification on the collar was obscured because the dog wasn't registered and didn't have rabies shots like it was supposed to, which would subject the owner to a fine. Just a thought.
> 
> As for your statement about the animal laws, I wounder if #7 under § 3.1-796.68. would include administering B-12 shots to keep the dogs running?


If that was the case, why would the owner put a collar on it at all. No one seen this dog chasing deer. everyone assumes it was, I for one would like to see a picture of the hound and the tag. any rules may apply if owner is known and a complaint is made. but we don't know the owner or the situation with this dog.


----------



## MTNHunt

Assume? Assume? Assume?

BigBird and Deepzak, your assumptions on the picked up dog are starting to really define the word assume for all of us. 

Clearly, the pro-dog hunter has more facts on the matter than an anti-dog green card PETA hunter member that both of you are starting to sound like. 

BigBird, a big Board of Supervisor meeting Thursday night in Spotsylvania County, it going to be a big turnout for the pro-dog hunters, and I am sure that we will wish you were here. :zip:

Keep on posting because maybe you will start to realize that you need to stop the _ _ _ out of u and me...........story telling.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Well lets assume this from the finder of the dog............


> hi rick..
> i guess you don't understand..there was no info on the collar..it was not a tracking collar. it was an old leather collar that looked like something had been scratched off.....i know the law and would not remove a tracking collar.. i would have still taken the dog to the vet, paid the bill and then contacted the owner..i have done that before too...the dog is my concern....most of the time they have told me to "just keep the dog"
> it is good that you are going against these people (if you can call them that)...i have returned dogs that were in good health and had id on them....i am not into taking peoples dogs..just saving the ones that i know have been hung out to dry....


Lets assume some more while we're at it...............


> just an update on will the hound dog...he is home , i went and picked him up this evening...he has a pin and wires holding his leg in place..he is on antibiotics...he has a very sweet disposition and looks relieved.....hopefully he will gain some weight over the next few weeks....he got his shots and the vet said he thought he would do well.....when he came out of the back, will wagged his tail.....so i thought i would call him willie wags...lol
> thanks to those that have been supportive....now....he needs a forever... loving home....he is going to be beautiful when he fills out..he is red and has amber eyes..he is around 5 or 6....lets find willie wags a new home and a new life where he can be loved and have the life he deserves......
> thanks



MtnHtr are you trying to say something? If so say it. 
Is that the County board of supervisors meeting?


----------



## deepzak

MTNHunt said:


> Assume? Assume? Assume?
> 
> BigBird and Deepzak, your assumptions on the picked up dog are starting to really define the word assume for all of us.
> 
> Clearly, the pro-dog hunter has more facts on the matter than an anti-dog green card PETA hunter member that both of you are starting to sound like.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I really haven't seen any "facts" on this one yet (other than a bunch of cut and pasted laws) from EITHER side. But nice name calling, how old are you? Way to have an adult conversation.


----------



## bkjastrebsky

*deer hunting*



deepzak said:


> If everyone had an attitude like you dude, we would still have slavery. After all, it was tradition and something people like you told others to "just learn to live with" and it was around for about 150 years. You don't have to teach your dog to read, but dogs can differentiate color and know what a fence is. What you really need to do is called TRAIN your dog. I know I would be all in favor of something like a personal fine for the owner of $1,000.00 per dog per incident of tresspassing that goes into the landowners pocket, after 2 incidents that person is no longer allowed to own dogs and if they are caught with dogs they face something like a $20,000.00 fine and 10 years in jail. It may sound like a heavy fine, but sometimes that is what is needed to deter people.


Alright man seems like everyone one here has there own opinion and most of ya don't really see where this subject comes from. I think this is just another reason for some of yal to argue about something. If yal go pick up the new outdoor life and read the article about Virginia's past time of deer hunting with dogs it will clear alot of this subject up.


----------



## BigBirdVA

bkjastrebsky said:


> Alright man seems like everyone one here has there own opinion and most of ya don't really see where this subject comes from. I think this is just another reason for some of yal to argue about something. If yal go pick up the new outdoor life and read the article about Virginia's past time of deer hunting with dogs it will clear alot of this subject up.


 What a heart warming story. All is well in the land of Dixie. I think I'll call VDGIF in the morning and tell them to call off this whole review thing because Outdoor Life can't say one bad thing about dog chasing. Typical one sided presentation of dog chasing. Too bad they left out some of the not so nice aspects of it. But hey they have to sell their rag.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> What a heart warming story. All is well in the land of Dixie. I think I'll call VDGIF in the morning and tell them to call off this whole review thing because Outdoor Life can't say one bad thing about dog chasing. Typical one sided presentation of dog chasing. Too bad they left out some of the not so nice aspects of it. But hey they have to sell their rag.


Gotta love his sense of sarcasim:thumbs_do


----------



## BigBirdVA

*too many forums...... too little time........*

My turn.............. Agenda or OCD or both? 


http://forums.cabelas.com/search.php?searchid=434131

http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1579

http://www.newrivervalleynews.com/content/view/12158/59/

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=171248

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/search.php?searchid=1827706

http://www.huntfairchase.com/msgboard/read.php?1,8937,8955

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=173022

http://vadeer.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=hokieman

http://www.vaturkey.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=24008&sid=695bef80bad4834e0466b349e19977e9


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> My turn.............. Agenda or OCD or both?
> 
> 
> http://forums.cabelas.com/search.php?searchid=434131
> 
> http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1579
> 
> http://www.newrivervalleynews.com/content/view/12158/59/
> 
> http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=171248
> 
> http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/search.php?searchid=1827706
> 
> http://www.huntfairchase.com/msgboard/read.php?1,8937,8955
> 
> http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=173022
> 
> http://vadeer.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=hokieman
> 
> http://www.vaturkey.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=24008&sid=695bef80bad4834e0466b349e19977e9


You was really trying to make a statment with this post. I noticed you posted it 3 times. I make no appologies for wanting to inform all Hunting Dog owners in Va. Keep that google fired up now I am set out for a 100 forums all because of you BIGBIRD.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> You was really trying to make a statment with this post. I noticed you posted it 3 times. I make no appologies for wanting to inform all Hunting Dog owners in Va. Keep that google fired up now I am set out for a 100 forums all because of you BIGBIRD.


I'll make no apologies for countering your OCD actions. Guess I need to join a few forums to get the truth out.


----------



## ButchA

Good God, Hokieman... You are _EVERYWHER_E on the internet. 

My opinion: Deer dog hunting will still continue. However, there will probably be new rules/regs to curtail the trespassing, road hunting, etc... In a nutshell: Dog doggers can still run dogs. They are just going to have to "clean up their act" - that's all.

I've always said:

Hunt rabbits with a beagle? Cool. Let's go. :shade:
Hunt upland birds with a spaniel? Cool. Let's go. :shade:
Hunt waterfowl with a black lab? Cool. Let's go. :shade:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Hunt/chase deer with a blue tick/hound dog?
Er, uh, um, why? I guess I just don't understand all the hoopla about it.  It's okay for some, I guess... It just ain't my thing... I like peace and quiet with just me and the deer one-on-one, in the woods.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I'll make no apologies for countering your OCD actions. Guess I need to join a few forums to get the truth out.


Psst buddy your 45 behind.:zip:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Psst buddy your 45 behind.:zip:


Could be 2 reasons for that. 
1. I'm not OCD
2. I've got a life


----------



## MTNHunt

Hokieman,

Thank you for your support and persistance to get the right truth out about the Virginia Dog Hunting issue. :wav:

I for one and many others who use dogs legally in Virginia during the deer gun season look forward to keeping the HERITAGE ALIVE and WELL in this Great State of Virginia.

Keep posting away:thumb:, and I wish you the Best of Luck and Happiness!

Best Regards,
Matt


----------



## Hokieman

MTNHunt said:


> Hokieman,
> 
> Thank you for your support and persistance to get the right truth out about the Virginia Dog Hunting issue. :wav:
> 
> I for one and many others who use dogs legally in Virginia during the deer gun season look forward to keeping the HERITAGE ALIVE and WELL in this Great State of Virginia.
> 
> Keep posting away:thumb:, and I wish you the Best of Luck and Happiness!
> 
> Best Regards,
> Matt


Thanks for your support!!!


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Thanks for your support!!!


Do you guys need some time alone?


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Do you guys need some time alone?


Rick you seem like a lonely man. Do you need a hug?:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Rick you seem like a lonely man. Do you need a hug?:wink:


I'm not lonely at all Derick. Low tolerance to BS. Guess it shows sometimes.


----------



## Hokieman

Hokieman said:


> This Resolution was passed by Charlotte, Brunswick, Mecklenburg
> and Lunenburg Counties and is currently under consideration in at
> least seven other Counties.
> 
> Ask your Board of Supervisors to help now!
> 
> A Resolution of the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors Where as Brunswick County has a tradition of hunting with dogs and specifically with hounds that is as old as the County; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs provides significant economic benefit to the county and her people; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs significantly contributes to the public safety by controlling excess wildlife populations that would otherwise increase automotive collisions, crop and other property damage, and disease control; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs, especially hounds, is practiced on the vast majority of land in Brunswick County and is a source of revenue and a major resource management tool; and Where as the Brunswick County tradition of hunting with dogs is a wholesome family oriented heritage that teaches self-reliance, individual responsibility, and the values of community and stewardship of our GOD given natural resources; therefore Be it resolved that the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors supports our Heritage of Hunting with Dogs, especially hounds, and opposes any studies or actions on the part of Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries and Virginia Tech as detrimental to that tradition. Be it further resolved that the Brunswick County Board of Supervisors in support of our Heritage of Hunting with Dogs, especially hounds, hereby calls on the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries to work to increase communication with hunters and their hunting organizations and to increase law enforcement of the existing laws.


This Resolution was passed in Spotsylvania County and Caroline County, more to follow.


----------



## cynic

BigBirdVA said:


> Just got this today from one of my wifes animal loving friends. Just another wonderful aspect of dog chasing that gives all hunters a black eye. Many do not know there is a separation among hunters that divides dog chasers from hunters. These people when asked would say "no" to all hunting because they don't know the fine points of the hunting methods out there. They lump all hunters in one lot. It's hard enough to keep them pro hunting, let alone educate them on the different styles of hunting. There may be legitimate reasons the dog is there and skinny but the tight collar is no excuse. The bottom line is this dog is a classic example of what many others view as the typical life of a hunting dog. It brings all hunters down. Again dog chasing is the most visible and problematic aspect of hunting in VA today. Just another aspect no one has touched on in this thread.
> 
> Well 2008 has started off with a bang..(no pun intended) today while driving to get some hay I saw a hound standing on the side of highway 360..he was skinny and I mean skinny and looked really confused...I slowed down and noticed he was holding up his hind leg....I stopped the truck
> and got out and as I approached him , he wagged his tail and tried to
> walk toward me...he collapsed. his left hind leg was dangling, the bone
> was so badly broken ..it was heartbreaking........a young friend was
> with me, we took my jacket and wrapped the dog in it and lifted him into
> my truck, he sighed when he laid down in the back seat... we called Dr.
> XXXXXX in Halifax and we took the dog straight there...he needs surgery
> and shots and help...I have to call Dr will in the morning to see what
> the prognosis is....I told him I wanted himi to save the dog.....there
> was a collar on the hound...so tight it was actually cutting into his
> flesh...I have had hunters tell me the dogs get skinny from
> running...well??? my questions is...why was that collar so tight...seems to me it should be hanging on his neck as skinny as that poor dog is....I named
> him will......he had sheer will to stand on the edge of that highway
> ....he had a strong will to survive to allow perfect strangers to pick him
> up and carry him to a waiting vehicle...the dog was in horrible pain.,
> he was shaking all over.....yet, when I called out to him, he met me
> with a wagging tail....I really need help here folks.. I know I am always asking...but the animals keep on coming.....his vet bill will start at 250.00 and I will need to find him a good forever home...he is sweet and good
> natured.....can you please help me...I really have my hands full at the facility with all the horses and we now have 15 dogs all coming from local
> dumpsters and most are hounds.....we are at capacity...but, I
> could not leave that hound standing there to freeze to death tonight......I know there is one around every corner...if we could all just realize this is has
> to stop...these hounds deserve better, they should not be used for
> hunting and then abandoned when something happens to them....I know they trust, I saw will wag his tail, he had hope. I never have seen so much
> abuse it is disheartening and to me this is abuse. how can anyone think
> it is ok to treat any animal the way most of these hounds are treated???
> Please help me to help will.....he deserves a chance....
> Thanks
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hokieman think the VHDA will spring for the vet bills? If they really want to turn the image of dog chasers around this would be a great opportunity.


Does it being a hound make it a hunting dog? Could this just have been a pet that was neglected... Really nice way to try and paint another form of hunting as evil just because you choose not to participate in it... I didn't see anywhere it denoted HUNTING


----------



## crazyfarmer

I dont even know where to begin in this post LOL. You have the die hard guys that hate hounds.... you have some that only use them.. then you have the slect few that like both. I personally like both. I enjoy setting in a stand from dusk till dawn, I love hearing hounds run. I was raised in the old ways where us farmers owned hounds and loved to hear them run. It wasnt about killing a gaint buck, it was just hearing the hounds run through the woods. Now times have changed and everyone from the city has moved to the country taking land which was once wooded farm land and divided it into 15 different tracks and all but 2-3 of them are posted. Also, rich still hunters are buying land up down here which we once hunted and now cant even breathe near for the fear of being run off. Not every hound hunter is bad or evil. If they did away with hound hunting would it bother me? No, but its part of Va's history and shouldnt be done away with just because a few complain. Plain people abuse dogs everyday. But if someone see's a skinny hunting dog then its a totally different thing. I work in the sheriffs department and its far more abuse coming from a normal john doe that lives next door than from any hunter! Its gonna be bad apples in nay bunch. Thats a way of life. Whats bad is that non hunters and PETA are taking action to do away with HUNTING. So while everyone bickers about dog hunting being allowed, we better worry about HUNTING all together! I just hate seeing non dog hunters and dog hunters battle. Its a pointless war that does nothing but hurt the whole sport. Its idiot still hunters out there and its idiot dog hunters out there also. To do away with one is to do away with another:sad:

someone posted about hunting dogs being abused.. well drive down the road and look at the stray cats people through out. Should be ban people that must hunt with cats since they are abused??? LMAO 

from a still hunters side I can see why some dont like dog hunting. I myself spend 9months of the year patterning deer and hunting 1-2 deer I want to put on my wall. If I dont get them, then normally the first pack of dogs that run through run them out to someone thats never hunted before and the big bucks dead. But thats hunting. You have some still hunters that rent land and manage it. Then dogs run through that land and flush their deer out. Well, what can be done? Most clubs dont turn their hounds loose on that land on purpose. Thats stupid! When I hunt with my local club and hounds run on posted land our day is shot since we have to spend all day trying to get those dogs back!! Its a hassle for the club to even hunt since half the lands posted, half one 3-4 people have permission, and half the land has a daytona 500 raceway through it and dogs get killed!

from a dog hunters side.... 

they dislike still hunters since they come here and buy their land at prices they cannot afford. Land they hunted for years. I had some farmland I hunted by myself for years taken away by some this season. But what can I do.. im not paying to hunt land . If you pay one, you have to pay another. Lands hard to find and most is being rented out. 

but bah bah bah.... both sides can go on and on.. its always gonna be some like are idiots on both sides. If everyone would just focus on hunting as a sport instead of bickering maybe we could all get along. Im just glad im blessed to like both types of hunting. 


FYI, ignore my typoes.. im not going back to reread this LOL


----------



## deepzak

crazyfarmer,

First off, :welcomesign:to AT! and thanks for speaking up. I do however feel that you are wrong about a few things. 

First, in the small area's that I hunt I have personally seen dog clubs let their dogs onto property that they did not have permission to hunt to run across it and run deer off the property. I was in no position to confront a group of armed hunters while I only had a bow in my hand, plus, why should I have to give up my hunt? So these guys can run their dogs?

Second, I don't believe that it is the still hunters buying up land so much as it is non-hunters. These people as well as farmers see the negative side of hunting (hunting from the road, tresspassing, shooting everything that runs by, leaving trash all over, ect....) from the most visible group....dog hunters. If a still hunter is doing his or her job right, no one will know they are there.

Third, and this is only my thoughts on the subject. One of the reason's I go into the woods to hunt is for the solitude and peace and quiet. When I have settled in and am enjoying the quiet trying to hear a deer and then that quiet is shattered by the baying of dogs it kind of ruins the not only the moment, but sets a bad tone for the whole day. If we were neighbors in town, and my dog set to barking at 7am and barked all day long on your one day a week off, how would you feel. When you asked me to keep the dog quiet, and I told you that it was the dog "singing" and that I just like to hear it "sing", it's a tradition where I come from to here your dog sing all day saturday. Would this be ok with you? I don't think so.

Please don't take this as a slam or personal attack, I am just responding to your comments. Again, welcome to AT and thanks for sharing your thoughts, continue to do so!!


----------



## Moon

*Bottom line*

Deer chasers are wide open to ignoring existing laws that apply to them, knowing there will be no enforcement even if they are caught red handed. This is by design in order to carry on the good ole boy tradition . Never mind that they trample over others' rights and property. You'll notice that Brunswick County's litttle spiel only says that laws should be enforced and they know damned well there is no way they will be Brunswick County land owners, you see what property rights means in that county. The thing that really stands out is that they say since it's a tradition they should not change anything (that's the way we've always done it mentality) I say to Brunswick County, wake up! Are you saying that all of the values of hunting that you listed would not be enhanced by the ellimination of trampling and tresspassing on private property and that showing youngsters that abiding by the law is the right thing to do instead of having them seeing no respect for existing laws from an early age? By the time they are 15 years old they too will be doing the same things and thinking the same way. Too bad...................and it's all tied to chasing deer with dogs, a tradition gone horribly wrong.


----------



## crazyfarmer

deepzak, nothing personal taken. I know everyone has their views on this and as I said, im in the middle. I like both. Yes I preferr bowhunting and ML'ing. I could bow hunt all year if I had to. But I do like the mix up in things for the later season when dogs hit the woods. I spend about 40 days bowhunting and ML'ing in the first 2 months and after that I like to get up and move a little bit Alos, like I said, its always a bad apple or 2 in every bunch. I just know we try and avoid posted land since we dont want the hassle involved with it. 9 times out of 10 the game warden is called and some fight is started when we actaully did not intend on the dogs going that way. For example, we have one trac of land which we hunt and directly across the road its posted. Its about 800 on the side we hunt and probably 1000 across the road thats posted. No matter how hard we try and stop the dogs from crossing that road a few will make it. But we have to hunt that land since being a farmer also our crops get wiped out. This season was the first season we had to get summer kill permitts for deer eating our crops. Most of these deer are coming from the posted land also since mainly the ones that rent the posted land are shooting big bucks and letting doe walk. But what im getting at is that no matter how hard you try, you cant control a dog and where he goes. You can try but 9 times out of 10 you cant. Yes its some that do break the rules and hunt posted land. I know still hunters that do the same. But dog hunting is getting a bad wrap since its the most obivious. You cant hide a pack of barking dogs in the woods.

whatever happens with the sport ill be fine... but killing 20+ deer per year will get boring with a bow after awhile for everyone. Plus the still hunters wont have anyone to pick on and call "evil" when dog hunting is over:tongue: LOL

btw, not flaming or bashing anyone.. a friendly debate is always good and whatever happens happens for the best


----------



## crazyfarmer

Moonkryket said:


> Too bad...................and it's all tied to chasing deer with dogs, a tradition gone horribly wrong.


just htink of it this way.... 

once dog hunting is gone, hunting in general will be next on the list for the anti's. It's a step by step process


----------



## Moon

*That's interesting*

but IMO deer chasing is the ONE THING that could undo all our hunting rights. I refuse to be classified in the ranks of deer chasers simply due to the fact I've had 44 years of experience in the midst of this so called method of "hunting". A tradition that started out as a few farmers throwing a couple hounds in the woods on Saturday to help them more easily get their venision in NO WAY resembles the sorry situation this method of getting deer has transformed into. No , not all deer chasers are law breakers, but the fact remains that there are overwhelming numbers of dog owners that have no respect for the law. I see it on a continous basis from November 15 until January 6. The DGIF can't even come close to policing these thugs. So where does that leave deer chasing? I have NEVER had a still hunter come onto my property without permission or dissrupt my hunting or use of my property. Time changes everything and it's certainly time for this sore to be lanced. The mere fact that there is an ever increasing revolt from property owners and hunters alike that a fed up with their sport and privacy being continually invaded by dogs and uncaring dog owners should tell you something. I have other things in life to do besides calling game wardens and police everytime my privacy in invaded. If you can't see that then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you but sooner or later the deer chasing will end and hunting will be truly hunting east of the Blue Ridge just as it is today west of the Blue Ridge mountains.


----------



## deepzak

Moonkryket said:


> but IMO deer chasing is the ONE THING that could undo all our hunting rights. I refuse to be classified in the ranks of deer chasers simply due to the fact I've had 44 years of experience in the midst of this so called method of "hunting". A tradition that started out as a few farmers throwing a couple hounds in the woods on Saturday to help them more easily get their venision in NO WAY resembles the sorry situation this method of getting deer has transformed into. No , not all deer chasers are law breakers, but the fact remains that there are overwhelming numbers of dog owners that have no respect for the law. I see it on a continous basis from November 15 until January 6. The DGIF can't even come close to policing these thugs. So where does that leave deer chasing? I have NEVER had a still hunter come onto my property without permission or dissrupt my hunting or use of my property. Time changes everything and it's certainly time for this sore to be lanced. The mere fact that there is an ever increasing revolt from property owners and hunters alike that a fed up with their sport and privacy being continually invaded by dogs and uncaring dog owners should tell you something. I have other things in life to do besides calling game wardens and police everytime my privacy in invaded. If you can't see that then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you but sooner or later the deer chasing will end and hunting will be truly hunting east of the Blue Ridge just as it is today west of the Blue Ridge mountains.


Can I get an...........:amen:.....?


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> but IMO deer chasing is the ONE THING that could undo all our hunting rights. I refuse to be classified in the ranks of deer chasers simply due to the fact I've had 44 years of experience in the midst of this so called method of "hunting". A tradition that started out as a few farmers throwing a couple hounds in the woods on Saturday to help them more easily get their venision in NO WAY resembles the sorry situation this method of getting deer has transformed into. No , not all deer chasers are law breakers, but the fact remains that there are overwhelming numbers of dog owners that have no respect for the law. I see it on a continous basis from November 15 until January 6. The DGIF can't even come close to policing these thugs. So where does that leave deer chasing? I have NEVER had a still hunter come onto my property without permission or dissrupt my hunting or use of my property. Time changes everything and it's certainly time for this sore to be lanced. The mere fact that there is an ever increasing revolt from property owners and hunters alike that a fed up with their sport and privacy being continually invaded by dogs and uncaring dog owners should tell you something. I have other things in life to do besides calling game wardens and police everytime my privacy in invaded. If you can't see that then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you but sooner or later the deer chasing will end and hunting will be truly hunting east of the Blue Ridge just as it is today west of the Blue Ridge mountains.


Your sterotyping one form of outdoor recreation over another. not all deer chasers, not even a majority are the slobs you reffer too. You have them same slob hunters in every form of hunting just not as reconized as much because their more concealed. Hunters better unite and stand togeather because after one group is gone whats to stop another complaint to come up like wounding bambi with an arrow and leaving him to suffer in the woods because you couldn't find him. I know because I bowhunt. The animal rights are just getting geared up. Wayne Purcell from HSUS has already made a comment if he could end all hunting he would. who is going to stand with you? something to think about.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Can I get an...........:amen:.....?


No, What you have are landowners who aren't filing complaints and the law and game wardens who aren't enforcing it. There are enough current game laws and county laws in place if the officers and wardens would do their job and landowners would file their complaints.


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> No, What you have are landowners who aren't filing complaints and the law and game wardens who aren't enforcing it. There are enough current game laws and county laws in place if the officers and wardens would do their job and landowners would file their complaints.


Let's not forget the folks (YOU ... Hokieman/Derick) who talk out of both sides of their mouths. If you think I'm going to let you live this down, you are sadly mistaken !!  :nyah:

First you said this: 
"A FEW ROUGE INDIVIDUALS COULD RUIN A GREAT THING FOR VIRGINIA HUNTING DOG OWNERS. LAWS ARE TO BE FOLLOWED, IT'S THAT SIMPLE. IT'S NOT THE GAME COMISSIONS FAULT THEY ARE MERELY ENFORCING THE LAWS"

Then you said this:
"IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION."



3sheets :bounce:


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> No, What you have are landowners who aren't filing complaints and the law and game wardens who aren't enforcing it. There are enough current game laws and county laws in place if the officers and wardens would do their job and landowners would file their complaints.


What good does it do to file a complaint when you KNOW it will not get acted on or the people who the complaint is file against will just use the "dogs can't read signs" defense so they get off. I tell you honestly, it pisses people off to waste their time like that. To avoid the runaround, they would just prefer to remove the cause, and I really can't blame them.

It's also very hard to get the gamewardens off THEIR packs of dogs to come enforce the laws (not all of them, there are some really good ones out there). :wink: Yes, that is a generalization, but the GW's also know that even if they do issue a ticket, it will be dismissed in court; because without video evidence, it's a he said/she said, your word against mine thing.

You have cut and pasted enough of the laws, that I would have thought that you'd have seen the laws concerning dog chasers being allowed to enter posted property to "retreive their dogs" (so what if they shoot a deer or two, right?) You apparently will defend the law breakers to the very end. You toute how the VDHA investigates any law breaking reported against dog clubs, but I have to wonder how many convictions there have been due to evidence provided by VDHA. No, I firmly believe that VDHA is looking out for VDHA and will cover up any wrong doing by ANY dog club better than a politician can cover a scandal.


----------



## crazyfarmer

hokieman, I think me and you are on the same page. Granted taking hunting dogs away wont effect me one bit since im a die hard still hunter also. But like I said and you have said, whats next on the list.. Here is what the anti hunter list looks like

1: Hound hunting is evil do away with it!
2: Any hunting other than bowhunting is insane. People with guns running through the woods shooting bambi isnt right!
3: All hunting is bad and since we did away with the top 2, lets cancel hunting together since its nothing left to do :zip:

As a farmer and a out of control deer population now, whats gonna happen when dog season is gone? As a still hunter myself, I have no trouble taking and killing deer anyday. I probably see atleast 10 when im out everyday in the woods. But Im looking for a goodbuck and not a doe. Granted I'll still take a few doe but im always looking for something to go on the wall. Now with dogs, shooting a doe is much more fun to me. And for me, its definitly not a lazy way to kill a deer since I probably walk 2-3 miles a day when hunting with dogs. It gives me a chance to scout new land also while im out for next years bow season to. But its by no means a easy way to shoot a deer. But back to the topic... who's gonna control the deer population? From what I read gun hunting/dog season kills the majority of deer in this state. Take that away and a good chunk of hunters and in a 1-2 year timeframe our crops will get hurt badly. This year we already had to get kill permitts. I hate those since you have to shoot deer in the summer and they pretty much go to waste. Controlling deer herds is my concern when dogs are gone:sad: Those that dont farm could care other wise, but our lively hoods depends on crops we raise in the fields. We dont plant them for deer to eat! Every sport has its negative. Its just sad to see hunters picking on hunters. Its like saying someone driving a chevy should be banned since ford is better


----------



## crazyfarmer

deepzak said:


> What good does it do to file a complaint when you KNOW it will not get acted on or the people who the complaint is file against will just use the "dogs can't read signs" defense so they get off. I tell you honestly, it pisses people off to waste their time like that. To avoid the runaround, they would just prefer to remove the cause, and I really can't blame them.
> 
> It's also very hard to get the gamewardens off THEIR packs of dogs to come enforce the laws (not all of them, there are some really good ones out there). :wink: Yes, that is a generalization, but the GW's also know that even if they do issue a ticket, it will be dismissed in court; because without video evidence, it's a he said/she said, your word against mine thing.
> 
> You have cut and pasted enough of the laws, that I would have thought that you'd have seen the laws concerning dog chasers being allowed to enter posted property to "retreive their dogs" (so what if they shoot a deer or two, right?) You apparently will defend the law breakers to the very end. You toute how the VDHA investigates any law breaking reported against dog clubs, but I have to wonder how many convictions there have been due to evidence provided by VDHA. No, I firmly believe that VDHA is looking out for VDHA and will cover up any wrong doing by ANY dog club better than a politician can cover a scandal.



anyone that enters posted land to get their dogs and shoots a deer should be punished by law. I believe its a hefty fine and 2 years loss of license. But doesnt the law state you can enter land on foot to get your dogs back. No gun or truck can go with you. Our club usually calls the landowner to let him know whats going on and most are nice enough to allow one truck to enter. But anyone going on posted land and shooting a deer should lose their license for a good period of time if you ask me. It does the sport no good in general! 

but back to my issue.. no dogs=more deer... which equals tee'ed off farmers with no crops which equals shoot everydeer you see in the summer before hunting season begins. Every action has a ripple effect


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## deepzak

*Where Is Vhda?*

Derick Ratcliffe Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: 





Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 94
Location: SWVA
DGIF RAIDS FOX PENS IN VIRGINIA OVER THE WEEKEND AND SHUTS DOWN 2 THRIDS. MORE INFO TO COME. 



quote: 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Originally posted by Mark Slade 
I find it very interesting that the VDGIF did inspections on quite a few fox pens over the weekend . It has been suggested that some of the Wardens had been scheduled off but were called into work at 6:00 am for a briefing on protocal for a new computer program ...LOL . Full inspections are said to have been done. Isn't it sorta funny, just when they have a new agenda Fox pen owners get a new inspection ? Lord have mercy ! Several pens are said to have been targeted and all the details have not been released . I have to wonder who inspects the VDGIF now ? Certainly not African Safari International lol... (INSIDE JOKE) 

This is a sad time in Virginia . I think its time a Federal organization took another look at Virginia's DGIF . Because of their affiliation with the State Police" per their transfered leader" they certainly should decline doing it . If you are listening ! This doesn't seem right and we could use all the help we can get . I have to wonder what's next ? Lord only knows . 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Hokie, I thought VHDA was going to police itself? Where are they at when crimes are committed? Oh, let me guess, those violators are beyond the VHDA to police right? Or is it just a case of "tell VDGIF what we think they want to hear so they leave us alone?"

Derick Ratcliffe Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: 





Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 94
Location: SWVA
IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION. WHEN YOU FIRST GO IN THEY WILL HAVE YOU SIGN A WAIVER AND WILL RECORD EVERYTHING SAID TO BE USED LATER TO VALADATE WHY THEY FEEL THEY NEED STRICTER REGULATIONS. DON'T BE A FOOLED. THEY R OUT TO TRICK YOU BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY VALADATED INFORMATION. 
Here is the exact quote that 3sheets is talking about copied from AKC Coonhounds message forum. If you have nothing to hide, how can they coax you into a story?


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## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Derick Ratcliffe Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joined: 06 Sep 2007
> Posts: 94
> Location: SWVA
> DGIF RAIDS FOX PENS IN VIRGINIA OVER THE WEEKEND AND SHUTS DOWN 2 THRIDS. MORE INFO TO COME.
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Mark Slade
> I find it very interesting that the VDGIF did inspections on quite a few fox pens over the weekend . It has been suggested that some of the Wardens had been scheduled off but were called into work at 6:00 am for a briefing on protocal for a new computer program ...LOL . Full inspections are said to have been done. Isn't it sorta funny, just when they have a new agenda Fox pen owners get a new inspection ? Lord have mercy ! Several pens are said to have been targeted and all the details have not been released . I have to wonder who inspects the VDGIF now ? Certainly not African Safari International lol... (INSIDE JOKE)
> 
> This is a sad time in Virginia . I think its time a Federal organization took another look at Virginia's DGIF . Because of their affiliation with the State Police" per their transfered leader" they certainly should decline doing it . If you are listening ! This doesn't seem right and we could use all the help we can get . I have to wonder what's next ? Lord only knows .
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hokie, I thought VHDA was going to police itself? Where are they at when crimes are committed? Oh, let me guess, those violators are beyond the VHDA to police right? Or is it just a case of "tell VDGIF what we think they want to hear so they leave us alone?"
> 
> Derick Ratcliffe Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joined: 06 Sep 2007
> Posts: 94
> Location: SWVA
> IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION. WHEN YOU FIRST GO IN THEY WILL HAVE YOU SIGN A WAIVER AND WILL RECORD EVERYTHING SAID TO BE USED LATER TO VALADATE WHY THEY FEEL THEY NEED STRICTER REGULATIONS. DON'T BE A FOOLED. THEY R OUT TO TRICK YOU BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY VALADATED INFORMATION.
> Here is the exact quote that 3sheets is talking about copied from AKC Coonhounds message forum. If you have nothing to hide, how can they coax you into a story?


Have you attend a focus group meeting? The method they go by is deceptive to say the least. Their there for one purpose to ask questions and see how many will respond with the keyword of the focus group which was trespass. They mark it down and add it to the list. **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters all have a right to retrieve their hound by law, so is this in reality trespassing? the focus groups don't care they want to see how many **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters etc say they trespass and in reality they have a right by law to retrieve their hounds. so I posted for them not to say the key word trespass.


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## Hokieman

Hokieman said:


> Have you attend a focus group meeting? The method they go by is deceptive to say the least. Their there for one purpose to ask questions and see how many will respond with the keyword of the focus group which was trespass. They mark it down and add it to the list. **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters all have a right to retrieve their hound by law, so is this in reality trespassing? the focus groups don't care they want to see how many **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters etc say they trespass and in reality they have a right by law to retrieve their hounds. so I posted for them not to say the key word trespass.



Hokie, I thought VHDA was going to police itself? Where are they at when crimes are committed? Oh, let me guess, those violators are beyond the VHDA to police right? Or is it just a case of "tell VDGIF what we think they want to hear so they leave us alone?"

This was a operation or sting that was over 18mnths, Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance was formed until june of 2007. This was in regards to the sell of illegal widlife and poor record keeping from foxpen owners. nothing to due with the current issue with DGIF.


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## Hokieman

Wildlife officials respond to Bill's questions on foxhound training centers
By Bill Cochran

Blogs and chat lines have been busy since officials of the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries swept across the state earlier this month inspecting 41 foxhound training facilities, and closing 35 of them because of alleged violations. 

Some people have praised the effort; others say it is still another example of the VDGIF attempting to put hound hunters through the wringer. Many people have no clue as to what a foxhound training facility is all about. 

I asked VDGIF officials to help sort out things. Here are the agency’s answers to questions I posted: 

Q. What exactly is a foxhound training center and how many are there in Virginia? 

A. Foxhound training preserves are fenced enclosures of at least 100 acres that provide locations for the training of foxhounds and hound field trials. Permits to operate have been issued to 41 foxhound training preserves in Virginia for the current year.

Q. Who is the typical client of these facilities? 

A. A large percentage of Virginia foxhunters utilize the training enclosures for the purpose of training hounds or for field trials. Also, in eastern Virginia some dog deer hunters will use foxhound training enclosures to condition their dogs prior to the deer season. Some of the larger, sanctioned foxhunter events will draw hundreds of hounds and hound hunters. 

Q. What was behind the recent surprise inspection of the 41 foxhound training centers in Virginia? 

A. A multistate covert investigation over the past two years indicated serious problems with some foxhound training facilities. Conservation police officers with the VDGIF conducted a compliance inspection of all 41 facilities in Virginia at once to determine facility conditions and identify permit violations. 

Q. I understand the VDGIF temporarily shut down 36 facilities. What type infractions were found to merit this? 

A. The number was 35 suspended. Six facilities completely passed the initial inspection. Most violations consisted of inadequate records detailing hunter information and the number of animals released into the fenced enclosures. 

Q. When do you expect these facilities to reopen, or will they reopen? 

A. Seven have been reinstated. Seven more are currently ready to submit to the VDGIF appeal’s panel for consideration of the reinstatement of their permit. 

Q. Do you anticipate any criminal charges? 

A. Yes, specific details are not available at this time due to the on going investigation. 

Q. Many hound hunters already were upset over the VDGIF’s recent move to examine issues surrounding hound hunting in the state. Isn’t the foxhound training centers investigation adding salt to those wounds? 

A. The investigations into the foxhound training preserves in several southeastern states preceded the issue of the hound hunting study which was adopted by VDGIF in July 2007. It is unfortunate that some folks might consider the two linked, as they are not. 

Q. How many states were involved? 

A. Nine states: Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Virginia. 

Q. A major issue appears to be the importation of foxes and coyotes from out of state to be used in foxhound training centers. Why is this a concern? 

A. The importation of foxes or coyotes from out of state poses serious wildlife disease and health issues to native Virginia wildlife. For that reason it has been prohibited from the start for foxhound training facilities in Virginia. The Texas coyote/dog strain of rabies is not found in Virginia and represents clear health risks for wildlife, domestic animals and humans, and as such, the interstate translocation of coyotes should be strictly prohibited. With regards to out of state fox importation, there is a tapeworm (echinococcus multilocularis) which is not found in the southeast but is found in the Midwest and other regions. This parasite has health implications for wildlife, domestic livestock and humans; thus, the importation of foxes from outside Virginia is considered biologically hazardous. 

Q. Where can facility operators legally get foxes for their operations? 

A. Each foxhound training preserve permit outlines the conditions for obtaining live foxes within the state for the purpose of stocking preserves which are open to the public. Each facility operator may have up to 10 trappers live capturing foxes between Sept. 1 and the last day of February subject to the conditions outlined in the permit. 

Q. I understand coyotes are used in several states, but are illegal to use in Virginia. Are they considered superior to foxes for pen use and why can’t they be used in Virginia? 

A. Many foxhunters like to have their dogs run coyotes because coyotes remain more active in the daylight hours whereas foxes tend to run better at night and before daylight. The Department considered allowing coyotes in fox pens in Virginia and conducted a pilot program to evaluate this concept. Out of concern that it might encourage the illegal importation of coyotes from other states the proposal was not advanced. 

Q. A report from Alabama said 25 coyotes, 55 foxes, two bobcats and 33 cardinals, not to mention a moonshine still, were seized during inspections in that state. What role do cardinals play in this business? 

A. You will need to contact Alabama for specifics on their cases.

I hope this helps to answer your concerns.


----------



## 3sheets

crazyfarmer said:


> hokieman, I think me and you are on the same page.


Welcome to the debate Crazyfarmer !! Most farmers I happen to know, choose their allies with a lot more care. :wink:

Course, most of em are also so dang busy farming, they don't have time to Dog Hunt, Bow Hunt, or let alone hold down another job, post on messageboards, and spend 9 months patterning Deer. Curious what types of crops your growing, I might be able to send you a few new customers your way !! lmao :flypig:


3sheets :bounce:


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Have you attend a focus group meeting? The method they go by is deceptive to say the least. Their there for one purpose to ask questions and see how many will respond with the keyword of the focus group which was trespass. They mark it down and add it to the list. **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters all have a right to retrieve their hound by law, so is this in reality trespassing? the focus groups don't care they want to see how many **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters etc say they trespass and in reality they have a right by law to retrieve their hounds. so I posted for them not to say the key word trespass.


Considering I first made my post about your "doublespeak" way back on page 2 of this thread, 10+ days ago actually. I thought you could come up with a much better spin, than that given that much time. Apparently based on your comments, quite a few of your Deer Dog Running Brethern don't know what's legal or not legal since you see the need to help explain it to them to avoid any embarrasment. :embara:

Course, since your VHDA site has been up and on-line since July, I would have also thought that by now ya'll would have a "Missing Dogs" Tab, including aToll-Free number to report your missing dogs as well as their pictures and a brief description as to where/when they were lost; that's assuming of course that you folks actually care about your 4-legged buddies like you claim you do; I guess I just expect to much and perhaps am too logical at times. :boxing:


I'll even go out on a limb and say the VDGIF, even as much of a hard time and bad mouthing you folks have given them so far, would strongly consider posting that toll-free number on their website. :behindsof


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Considering I first made my post about your "doublespeak" way back on page 2 of this thread, 10+ days ago actually. I thought you could come up with a much better spin, than that given that much time. Apparently based on your comments, quite a few of your Deer Dog Running Brethern don't know what's legal or not legal since you see the need to help explain it to them to avoid any embarrasment. :embara:
> 
> Course, since your VHDA site has been up and on-line since July, I would have also thought that by now ya'll would have a "Missing Dogs" Tab, including aToll-Free number to report your missing dogs as well as their pictures and a brief description as to where/when they were lost; that's assuming of course that you folks actually care about your 4-legged buddies like you claim you do; I guess I just expect to much and perhaps am too logical at times. :boxing:
> 
> 
> I'll even go out on a limb and say the VDGIF, even as much of a hard time and bad mouthing you folks have given them so far, would strongly consider posting that toll-free number on their website. :behindsof
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



Your opinion is formed and no amount of debating or bantering is going to change your mind that is already made up and one side. Ban Hunting Dogs and Support Sunday Hunting. I am here to let sportsmen and sportswomen know that by joining with Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance they'll have a voice. Virginia’s Sportsmen need a strong voice to tell the bureaucrats and politicians not to tread on our rights! They want their Sportsmen’s organization to be bold defenders of their Heritage not elitists that ignore the hunting traditions that are as old as Virginia herself! Yours and others opinions matter little to me as I firmly stand behind Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and our agenda. You can join in support or choose not too, that is entirely up to you. This fight will be won or lost in the General Assembly not on a public forum bantering with people, with that said you have a nice day and remember I am still your friend:wink:


----------



## ButchA

Hokie, I must tip my hat to you... Man, you are *EVERYWHERE!* 

Every hunting forum I visit - you're there, preaching about supporting deer dogging/chasing. Heck, I might even visit a golf forum or a motorcycle forum, and you'd be there in the "off topic" forum!!!!

Why not change your VHDA name to VDDHA (Virginia DEER DOG Hunting Alliance)?

Nobody I know of who hunts waterfowl with labrador retrievers has any problems.

Nobody I know of who hunts rabbits with beagles has any problems.

Nobody I know of who hunts upland birds with spaniels has any problems.

Hmmmm.........


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## crazyfarmer

3sheets said:


> Welcome to the debate Crazyfarmer !! Most farmers I happen to know, choose their allies with a lot more care. :wink:
> 
> Course, most of em are also so dang busy farming, they don't have time to Dog Hunt, Bow Hunt, or let alone hold down another job, post on messageboards, and spend 9 months patterning Deer. Curious what types of crops your growing, I might be able to send you a few new customers your way !! lmao :flypig:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



thanks for the welcome.. but yes farmers have to grow the goodstuff just to pay bills these days


----------



## Hokieman

ButchA said:


> Hokie, I must tip my hat to you... Man, you are *EVERYWHERE!*
> 
> Every hunting forum I visit - you're there, preaching about supporting deer dogging/chasing. Heck, I might even visit a golf forum or a motorcycle forum, and you'd be there in the "off topic" forum!!!!
> 
> Why not change your VHDA name to VDDHA (Virginia DEER DOG Hunting Alliance)?
> 
> Nobody I know of who hunts waterfowl with labrador retrievers has any problems.
> 
> Nobody I know of who hunts rabbits with beagles has any problems.
> 
> Nobody I know of who hunts upland birds with spaniels has any problems.
> 
> Hmmmm.........



Well you never know, there is always the first time:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Your opinion is formed and no amount of debating or bantering is going to change your mind that is already made up and one side. *Ban Hunting Dogs* and Support Sunday Hunting. I am here to let sportsmen and sportswomen know that by joining with Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance they'll have a voice. Virginia’s Sportsmen need a strong voice to tell the bureaucrats and politicians not to tread on our rights! They want their Sportsmen’s organization to be bold defenders of their Heritage not elitists that ignore the hunting traditions that are as old as Virginia herself! Yours and others opinions matter little to me as I firmly stand behind Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and our agenda. You can join in support or choose not too, that is entirely up to you. This fight will be won or lost in the General Assembly not on a public forum bantering with people, with that said you have a nice day and remember I am still your friend:wink:



I challenge you to show where in any of my posts that I have said to "*Ban Hunting Dogs*"; come on Sport show me!!! :set1_punch:


After I give you & your Deer Dog Runners such a novel idea & enterprising idea to have a "Missing Dogs Tab" and a Toll-Free number to report your missing dogs on your site and for you to approach the VDGIF with that idea (you folks, not me would have gotten all of the credit) and your post is the thanks I get for doing that; I'm truely hurt!!! 

Way I look at it, there comes a time to put up or shut up and sadly it's rather obvious which choice you made; I can only hope there are a few logical folks at the VDHA that will take my suggestion and make something positive happen for a change. Originally, I was also going to suggest a T.I.T. (Turn In a Tresspassor) hotline to you, I'm glad now that I didn't ... if such a positive suggestion as the "Missing Dog Hotline" invoked such a negative response, I'd sure hate to see what sort of response I would have gotton with the T.I.T. hotline!!! :flame:


3sheets :bounce:


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## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> I challenge you to show where in any of my posts that I have said to "*Ban Hunting Dogs*"; come on Sport show me!!! :set1_punch:
> 
> 
> After I give you & your Deer Dog Runners such a novel idea & enterprising idea to have a "Missing Dogs Tab" and a Toll-Free number to report your missing dogs on your site and for you to approach the VDGIF with that idea (you folks, not me would have gotten all of the credit) and your post is the thanks I get for doing that; I'm truely hurt!!!
> 
> Way I look at it, there comes a time to put up or shut up and sadly it's rather obvious which choice you made; I can only hope there are a few logical folks at the VDHA that will take my suggestion and make something positive happen for a change. Originally, I was also going to suggest a T.I.T. (Turn In a Tresspassor) hotline to you, I'm glad now that I didn't ... if such a positive suggestion as the "Missing Dog Hotline" invoked such a negative response, I'd sure hate to see what sort of response I would have gotton with the T.I.T. hotline!!! :flame:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



Ok I'll retract the Ban on Hunting Dog statement and I appologize. I'll even give you credit for some great ideals that I will present to the board of directors or if you would like can email them at [email protected] but lets be honest here. your either for it or agianst it. problems yes there are problems but rome wasn't built overnight and a resolution to a fix won't be either. communication is the key and education on both sides of the feild. were working towards a goal but don't expect a return overnight. I am still your pal:tongue:


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## 3sheets

Nope I don't want any credit; if you can actually make the "Missing Dogs Tab/Toll-Free number" thing happen (including with the VDGIF) then you deserve and can have all the credit. You can even use the T.I.T. suggestion as well, with absolutely no strings attached !! :wink:


3sheets :bounce:


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## Hokieman

Spotsy weighs in on hunting dogs
January 9, 2008 12:35 am


Back in the trailer after a hunt, Hugo, Gallup, and Tarnish watch the fox hunters standing around. The hounds are rigorously trained for fox hunting. 

Some groups in the state have questioned whether the use of hunting dogs is a form of animal cruelty. 

BY DAN TELVOCK
BY DAN TELVOCK 
Hunters who use dogs have launched a statewide effort to defend this longtime tradition that they believe is under attack.

The Department of Game and Inland Fisheries has partnered with Virginia Tech to study the use of hunting dogs. The state agency created a working group to make recommendations by November that will "provide diverse opportunities for hunting with hounds in Virginia in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of private property owners and other citizens." 

Modern challenges of rapid growth, smaller parcels for hunting, more frequent turnover of rural land and concerns about animal rights all have created the need to review the standards and laws, according to minutes of July 17 Board of Game and Inland Fisheries meeting in Richmond. The meeting attracted about 350 people, mostly hunters. 

Spotsylvania County supervisors Emmitt Marshall and T.C. Waddy won unanimous support of a resolution last night that states current laws are sufficient to regulate hunters and the use of hunting dogs.

A shortage of wardens makes it difficult for the agency to enforce the laws, the resolution states. Five other Virginia counties, including Caroline, have already passed or are considering passing a similar resolution. 

"We want to stop this thing before it goes too far," Marshall said during an interview before the county board meeting. 

Marshall is a member of the Berkeley Hunt Club. 

"We treat dogs better today than we ever have before," he said. 

The game department commissioned the study and working group to address rising complaints about hunting dogs. Virginia Tech Assistant Professor of Fisheries and Wildlife Steve McMullin leads the study.

He could not be reached for comment, but his Web page states that the use of hunting dogs has generated "substantial opposition" from animal rights advocates and private landowners who are concerned with trespassing problems. 

State law states hunters whose dogs stray on private property cannot carry their guns to retrieve the dog, and they must identify themselves when asked. McMullin says on his Web page that the 900 comments received in two months on the VDGIF Web site relating to a resident's recommendation to make the law more restrictive shows the degree of controversy that surrounds this law and the use of hunting dogs. Two recent meetings in Bowling Green and Charlottesville attracted more than 200 people, mostly hunters. 

Since the announcement of the study, the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, with support from the Commonwealth Sportsmen's Alliance political action committee, has been established. The group urges hunters to unite against further restrictions on hunting dogs.

It is distributing fliers that state the VDGIF is trying to outlaw hunting with dogs, which the agency has strongly denied. More than 200 hunting clubs across the state, including at least five in this region, are shown as "alliances" with the group. 

Waddy, 72, said after last night's county board meeting, that hunters have used dogs for years and he supports preserving the right. 

"That's hunting," he said. "I've been hunting since I was 8 years old, and I've always used a dog."

Dan Telvock: 540/374-5438
Email: [email protected]


----------



## MTNHunt

:welcomesign: Crazyfarmer to Archery Talk.....you will find that they are some very interesting posters on here about banning dogs for deer...

I believe you have already met one by reading his post above.....my friend you have chosen your side (with Hokieman) very well. Some of the anti-dog hunters on here will always tease him about being on so many forums...but oh well...the VHDA is getting the point accross very well to the law makers every minute, hour and day for all of us who use dogs for deer in Virginia. 

Whether your a dog hunter or not, to ban any type of legal means of hunting is the downfall of our sport. You said this, I will say this, and the VAST MAJORITY of hunters will say this. It will open a whole new arena of issues that are not worthy of any merit, only to further the anti-hunters adgenda. I recently posted on Bowsite.com, (by the way Hokieman, your favorite Bird is on that one) you should have seen some of the so call hunters wanting to ban certain types of buckshot because of deer being chased and shot by standers, and blaming the so-called lazy, slob dog hunter the reason for banning it. #4 Buckshot was on the list.

However, I am starting to see some very positive thing coming about because of all the fuss over Deerhoundmen, like resolutions by many counties protecting the right to use dogs or should I say PROTECTING THE TRADITION OF USING DOGS FOR DEER IN VIRGINIA, YEA HAH!!!!!:amen: (one is my county I hunt in, Spotsylvania) another is Luneburg, Spotsylvania Board of Supervisors shot down a measure that said you had to have 1,000 acres of land? Non-sense..BS...started by the anti's against the use of dogs.......Hunters showed up in full force and the board agreed that the game commission had adequate laws about using dogs! 

The BEST thing about all of this debat is that the Dog Hunters Supporters and Groups are becoming very large and are far out weighing all of this whinning that some of the anti-dog hunters are doing, infact, most of which is Dream up in their imagination to further there cause of their Deer Management Adgenda in Virginia. :zip: 

The lastest excuse for the anti-dog hunter when asked where are all the incidents on record from the Game Commission of trespassing and poaching from the Dog Hunters? Which is I don't have time to call, or it's not worth my time, etc, etc. Give me a break, I don't have time to call, but lets see I will just post a lot of my interrupted hunts on Archery forums???Duh...thats right.... By all means, I am not saying that all dog hunters follow the laws correctly nor do all hunters, however to lump them in as all law-breaker is just plain stupid! It is a small group of hunters who must be stopped by the exisisting laws in place. But wait, thats what they (anti-dog) want you to believe it's the majority because they just don't like that way of hunting. I do it all from Bowhunting to Dog Chasing, and I have a lot of fun at it all! 

Please pinch me, so I can wake up from the Wizard of OZ.....my dogs are lost on the yellow brick road.... I need that number to call. Ha! Ha!


----------



## ButchA

Er, um, let me clarify... (I sense MTN's first paragraph above was aimed at me)...

-- _Do I support dog hunting?_ Perhaps, if it is done right and doesn't anger land owners.

-- _If I am in Richmond, how come I don't hunt with dogs?_ I choose not to. I mean, it's cool... it just ain't my thing, you know? So, I hunt over the other side of the Blue Ridge, away from the deer dogs. I learned to not fight the deer doggers. There's too many of them to just li'l ol me. Yes, I have had many hunts ruined by deer dogs - even in archery season. So, I just went elsewhere to hunt, where I can enjoy the peace and quiet of the woods.

-- _Have I ever hunted deer with dogs?_ Um, funny you should ask... A few years ago in Cumberland State Forest, I was trying to hunt with my Remington 870 shotgun and kept running into deer dogs and other hunters. I went to another area, down the road, to another side of a ridge, and found a single deer dog along the dirt road. It somehow separated from its pack. The collar said "CH-7" along with a phone number. I decided to park my truck, and go walking down one of the trails, and the deer dog followed right along behind me. It grew fond of me (I guess because I knelt down and talked to it and petted it) and it wouldn't leave. So, long story short - _YES_ - I hunted deer with a dog! After a while, I wanted to move on to another area, but the dog still wouldn't leave. So, I did the only thing I could think of... I picked up the dog and put it in my truck with me. (The deer dog was in 7th heaven, riding _inside_ the cab of a pickup! It kept coming over to me and licking my face! :lol: ) So, I drove down the dirt road to where a bunch of other trucks were with dog boxes in the back. I pulled over and let the dog out. It sniffed the ground, then took off down the trail to rejoin the pack.

-- _What do I think of DGIF's study with VA Tech?_ I think it's needed. Like I said, there are good clubs and there are bad clubs. But what has happend is the bad clubs got too much out of hand and, I'm sorry... But I feel they spoiled it for all deer dog clubs.

-- _You're a Yankee come-here wanting to do away with tradition._ Ouch... Okay, so I'm a Yankee from upstate NY and settled in Virginia when I retired from the military. But I don't want to do away with anyone's tradition. I like Virginia and the people in Virginia. I just never heard of hunting deer with dogs until I moved here. I don't own any land here, so I can't be one of the bonafide complainers threatening with law suits. But then, I do sympathize with them. Such as, if it were me, I too would be totally P.O'd at all the deer dogs trespassing, and all the jacked up pickups, tearing across a pasture. We all need to come to some sort of agreement that works for all.


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## MTNHunt

ButchA,

I was merely stating that they are some interesting posters that started other facts (such as why does Hokieman post in so many forums, shooting dogs, stories of abused believed to be deerhounds, etc,) it was more of a general IMO than anything else for someone who has just starting to post here. And mainly directed at the post that Hokieman and 3Sheets were bouncing back at each other with the :icon_1_lol: I tend to follow alot of the dog threads on here after reading some of the older post before I was a member of AT.

And on another subject, sunday hunting, I have seen that you have posted on other sites about your petition, and I applaud your efforts in tring to rally support for the justification of your belief that it should be legal in VA. I am not quite sure why some dog hunters don't support the measure. I am sure that they are two sides of the debate, but I for one would sign your petition in favor of the measure and know of many other dog hunters who would also agree to it. But, not to high-jack the thread, I think the percentages are leaning more towards the approval every year. It may have to do with the evolution of the younger dog chasing crowd that also enjoys bowhunting, muzzleloading and other ways of hunting also (again IMO), not just soley dog hunting for deer. I know of some clubs,one in Caroline County who bans any other type of hunting but dogs during deer gun season. Personally, I would not be a member, because I to enjoy my Bowhunting and scouting for that big trophy or Meat before the dogs hit the woods in gun season.

Back to the dogging issue, the ones who tresspass and treat other peoples land without respect should be dealt with as the law states, unfortunatly, we all have some bad apples in the things we enjoy legally. As I read it in the Virginia game laws dog chasing on game lands is against the law? I will never state that all dog hunters follow the rules by the book, however in my experience it is a small majority, definately not the group of hunters I share my camp with. 

And by the way I can't call you a Yankee, because I never have met you, so I don't pass judgement that easy. HA! HA! Some of the most beautiful woods and hunting land is located in upstate NY.

And the only reason I am up this early is because my little squrril hunting buddy had to go outside.......look at this dog hunting stock below. Mans best friend, I love it :dog1:


----------



## 3sheets

Alrighty then Hokieman, in review, so far you are going:
1. To find out about the reason the Sunday 2am **** Hunting Law was implemented.
2. Present the "Missing Dog Hotline" and the "T.I.T. (Turn In a Trespassor)" ideas to the VDHA and then possibly to the VDGIF (thru the VDHA).


Since it appears we are making some small progress here, I think we should continue our debate/discussion/dialog (or whatever you want to call it) in hopes of making more progress. :grouphug:


With that in mind, I have a question for you: 
*Do you think the current laws regarding "the use of" or "recover of dogs" on un-authorized (not owned or no advanced permission given) private land need changed and if so, how would you change them??*


For the record, I'm not opposed to any type Dog Hunting, nor do I want to see Dog Hunting banned. What I do have real issues with is "willy-nilly", non-landowner approved access to private property by any individual or group ... that includes anyone, including: the pope, nature-loving sightseers, Hunters, Local, State, or Federal Guberment people, animal rights idiots, Joe Blow down the road, and anyone else I happened to miss. :smokin:



3sheets :bounce:


----------



## deepzak

crazyfarmer said:


> anyone that enters posted land to get their dogs and shoots a deer should be punished by law. I believe its a hefty fine and 2 years loss of license. But doesnt the law state you can enter land on foot to get your dogs back. No gun or truck can go with you. Our club usually calls the landowner to let him know whats going on and most are nice enough to allow one truck to enter. But anyone going on posted land and shooting a deer should lose their license for a good period of time if you ask me. It does the sport no good in general!
> 
> but back to my issue.. no dogs=more deer... which equals tee'ed off farmers with no crops which equals shoot everydeer you see in the summer before hunting season begins. Every action has a ripple effect


I agree, people who break the law should be punished, yet like I said earlier, unless you have video of the crime nothing happens. So, now I am REQUIRED to have a video camera with me when I go hunt just to preserve my right to hunt without interference right? Not because I want to video my hunt, but to defend my rights. Sad! :sad:

I must comment on something else you said, just to allow you to clarify. In one sentance above, you said that "the hunting traditions that are as old as Virginia herself!", yet you respond to another question with "problems yes there are problems but rome wasn't built overnight". I think Virginia is older than "overnight", please feel free to clairfy.



crazyfarmer said:


> thanks for the welcome.. but yes farmers have to grow the goodstuff just to pay bills these days


The GOOD stuff?.....Is that a reference to puff, puff, pass? :wink:


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Have you attend a focus group meeting? The method they go by is deceptive to say the least. Their there for one purpose to ask questions and see how many will respond with the keyword of the focus group which was trespass. They mark it down and add it to the list. **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters all have a right to retrieve their hound by law, so is this in reality trespassing? the focus groups don't care they want to see how many **** hunters, fox hunters, bear hunters etc say they trespass and in reality they have a right by law to retrieve their hounds. so I posted for them not to say the key word trespass.


Honestly, I would love to go to these meetings, if for no other reason than to listen to the debate and get a better feel for what is going on. Sadly, I am not the most computer literate person around and as much as I have searched, I am unable to find a schedule of dates and locations for the meetings. I was planning on calling VDGIF and see if they will tell me, but if you know the schedule, please post dates, times and locations as well as that meetings planned agenda so that anyone who wishes to go, can. Thanks in advance for the info and maybe I'll see you there (I'll be the one with the red carnation :wink: ).


----------



## ButchA

MTNHunt said:


> And on another subject, sunday hunting, I have seen that you have posted on other sites about your petition, and I applaud your efforts in tring to rally support for the justification of your belief that it should be legal in VA. I am not quite sure why some dog hunters don't support the measure. I am sure that they are two sides of the debate, but I for one would sign your petition in favor of the measure and know of many other dog hunters who would also agree to it.


Thanks... I have since shutdown the petition since it's 2008 and disabled the link. I emailed all the results to the General Assembly, Governor Kaine, and members of the DGIF board of directors. What becomes of it, I don't know...

From what I understand, _some_ of the deer doggers don't want Sunday hunting, because they need that extra day to retrieve their dogs from peoples' land. They also want to scout, hang stands, and possibly trespass, while the land owner is in church. Like I said, it is just what I've heard, what I've read on other forums, etc... To me, it's probably the rogue deer dog clubs (bad clubs) that don't want it.



> And by the way I can't call you a Yankee, because I never have met you, so I don't pass judgement that easy. HA! HA! Some of the most beautiful woods and hunting land is located in upstate NY.


LOL! Yeah, but NY State's laws are insane and they actually now have a liberal *ANTI* from Queens in charge of the DEC (like our DGIF). I have had many offers to go "back home" and hunt, but I politely refuse. The non-resident licenses are ridiculous! $$$$



> And the only reason I am up this early is because my little squrril hunting buddy had to go outside.......look at this dog hunting stock below. Mans best friend, I love it :dog1:


Cute dog!!  I have an 11 year old black lab (Sonny) and an 8th month old female Beagle/Shepherd cross (Amber), who we recently got from the pound. (our 13 year old female black lab passed away this past summer). I tried taking my black lab out to Amelia WMA to go rabbit hunting once. He did good and stayed right with me and never ran off. When we came to a huge pile of thickets and briars, I started kicking them with my boot. I looked at Sonny and said, "Get 'em!".... Sonny went up real close, sniffing the holes in the briars, then backed away, looking at me like, "you want me to go in there? I don't think so...." :lol: But, nevertheless, we had fun out hunting that day. I can't take Amber out yet, because she'd be gone in a flash and she's too hyper and to crazy. She's almost pure Beagle with a touch of Shepherd in her face, and chews everything, digs in the yard, tries to get out, etc... She's a handful!

Getting back on topic as well... I just hope we all can work something out regarding deer dog hunting. Some people mention they'll _shoot_ a dog. I could never bring myself to do that - no matter what. Knowing me, if I owned 200 acres and had issues with deer dogs running amok, I'd end up keeping them. "Oh, sorry... You're looking for your dogs? Well, they were on my land and looked lost. So, I sort of adopted them, fed them, and gave them water. Oh, you want them back? Okay, fine. Pay an adoption fee!" :wink:


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## BigBirdVA

cynic said:


> Does it being a hound make it a hunting dog? Could this just have been a pet that was neglected... Really nice way to try and paint another form of hunting as evil just because you choose not to participate in it... I didn't see anywhere it denoted HUNTING


Same tired old argument the dog chases use. "It was running foxes, not deer", or "it wasn't a hunting dog". I run the roads as much as anyone and I see more hounds out before, during and right after deer season. Of course it's possible they all were just hounds that were pets and got loose then. It's also possible I might win the lotto tonight. Another reason to mark or license hunting dogs. So we can prove they're not hunting hounds. :wink:
Keep using these lame reasons and excuses and ignore the obvious. One day it will all catch up with the dog chasers. I'm guessing 2009 is the day.


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## BigBirdVA

crazyfarmer said:


> just htink of it this way....
> 
> once dog hunting is gone, hunting in general will be next on the list for the anti's. It's a step by step process


If it was anti's that were pushing for it I would stick with the dog chasers and defend it no matter what. But that's not the case. Stopping dogs is not going to end hunting, it's alive and well in the mountains and they don't run deer there. The game commission is doing it based on the numbers of complaints from other hunters and land owners fed up with the madness. It's also partly from the suit in other states. That suit was from hunters, not anti's. Stopping or fixing it before the courts do is a wise move by the VDGIF.
To sit there and let a part of your group keep causing problems is wrong. If we don't clean up our act the anti's will. Right now the dog hunters are bringing all of us down and it needs to be fixed.


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## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> ........They also want to scout, hang stands, and possibly trespass, while the land owner is in church. Like I said, it is just what I've heard, what I've read on other forums, etc... To me, it's probably the rogue deer dog clubs (bad clubs) that don't want it............


Nice observation. Those numbers are in control because there are a ton of rogue clubs. The good ones are truly the minority. I put the good ones at 15% or so tops. Just the fact that there is so much opposition shows how rampant and prevalent the dog chaser mentality really is.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Nice observation. Those numbers are in control because there are a ton of rogue clubs. The good ones are truly the minority. I put the good ones at 15% or so tops. Just the fact that there is so much opposition shows how rampant and prevalent the dog chaser mentality really is.


Your assumption only.:wink:


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## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Alrighty then Hokieman, in review, so far you are going:
> 1. To find out about the reason the Sunday 2am **** Hunting Law was implemented.
> 2. Present the "Missing Dog Hotline" and the "T.I.T. (Turn In a Trespassor)" ideas to the VDHA and then possibly to the VDGIF (thru the VDHA).
> 
> 
> Since it appears we are making some small progress here, I think we should continue our debate/discussion/dialog (or whatever you want to call it) in hopes of making more progress. :grouphug:
> 
> 
> With that in mind, I have a question for you:
> *Do you think the current laws regarding "the use of" or "recover of dogs" on un-authorized (not owned or no advanced permission given) private land need changed and if so, how would you change them??*
> 
> 
> For the record, I'm not opposed to any type Dog Hunting, nor do I want to see Dog Hunting banned. What I do have real issues with is "willy-nilly", non-landowner approved access to private property by any individual or group ... that includes anyone, including: the pope, nature-loving sightseers, Hunters, Local, State, or Federal Guberment people, animal rights idiots, Joe Blow down the road, and anyone else I happened to miss. :smokin:
> 
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


in response to number 1. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To: removed to prevent spamming
Subject: Raccoon Hunting Question

Hello xxxxx,

Your question was forwarded to me for reply. The code section allowing for raccoon hunting until 2 AM on Sunday is very old and predates my employment in 1983. I don't know when it was implemented, but I suspect that it's at least 50-75 years old.

Sorry that I don't have more information for you.

Mike
Michael L. Fies
Furbearer Project Leader
Virginia Department of Game & Inland Fisheries
P.O. Box 996
Verona, VA 24482

540-248-9390 (office)
540-248-9399 (FAX)
540-569-0824 (cell)

[email protected]

2. I think anyone hunting with a dog and it goes upon another property should be able to exercise the right to retrieve law.


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## Hokieman

All focus group meetings are concluded. now the stakeholders meeting will start. Contact Steve McMullin at 540-231-8847 for more information on the interview process.


----------



## crazyfarmer

BigBirdVA said:


> To sit there and let a part of your group keep causing problems is wrong. If we don't clean up our act the anti's will. Right now the dog hunters are bringing all of us down and it needs to be fixed.



I agree, anyone that does wrong by the law should be punished. But my group isnt the one causing the problem. Everyone in the club I hunt with during dog season does their best to follow the law. I doubt our club stays together much longer anyway since Refuges have bougbt most of the land bordering where we hunt, houses are being built 24/7 on land we use to hunt, and still hunters are offering big cash prices to buy land to hunt. If anything drives dog hunters out of hunting it will be because they dont want to deal with the hassle of everyone thinking thay are evil. 

it just seems like its the old theory of women being witches like they hanged back in the old days. If someone says something other than what they believe, they must be a witch and should be hanged. Same concept applies here


Deepzak, I think you misquoted me on saying the tradition was as old as Va itself and something about Rome being built overnight. I dont recall saying anything about that Its to many quotes to know who says what in here now


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Your assumption only.:wink:


Been in 8 or more dog chaser clubs. To date only the present one has not trained out of season. To date 5 ran on others lands they had no permission at all to be on. To date 3-4 ran across others lands they had no permission to be on. That's not an assumption - it's a fact.


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> 2. I think anyone hunting with a dog and it goes upon another property should be able to exercise the right to retrieve law.


Hokieman, thanks for at least trying to get an answer on #1.

As far as #2 goes, per my previous post, I don't want anyone to have access to my private property, regardless of who they are. Not only did I go without a lot of "niceties" in life to be able to scrimp and save to acquire it, but you and everyone else are way too quick to overlook the potential liability issues that a property owner might face in the event of an accident. :mg:


3sheets :bounce:


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## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> Hokieman, thanks for at least trying to get an answer on #1.
> 
> As far as #2 goes, per my previous post, I don't want anyone to have access to my private property, regardless of who they are. Not only did I go without a lot of "niceties" in life to be able to scrimp and save to acquire it, but you and everyone else are way too quick to overlook the potential liability issues that a property owner might face in the event of an accident. :mg:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


I'm surprised it hasn't already happened in our law suit happy society. The law prohibits you from protecting your property.


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## BigBirdVA

*My turn to cut-n-paste...........*

In Richmond Times dispatch 1-9-2008. Another black eye for all hunters. Typical Dog chasers in action.
http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/opinion/letters.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-01-09-0032.html


> Hunters Should Know The Times Have Changes
> 
> Editor, Times-Dispatch:
> I live in Dinwiddie. I am what folks call a "come here." That would be a person who is new to a rural area. As I sit here typing this, I am listening to the sounds of hunting dogs running amok on my well-posted property.
> 
> I do understand that dogs can't read, but the well-armed men in the very expensive pickup trucks with the dog boxes in back sitting on the road in front of my home are literate enough to read the signs that say Private Property and Posted: No Hunting. They simply ignore them. As one of them told me, "We were hunting this land before you got here and we'll be hunting it after you're gone." Welcome to the neighborhood. We have also been advised that it would be wise if our sons wore blaze orange while playing in their own yard, and another helpful hunter suggested that we keep our pets "put up" or they could be inadvertently shot.
> 
> Understand, this is not a case of dogs accidentally wandering onto our property. I saw the hunters release three truckloads of dogs on my property this morning. The hunters know where the deer are -- on my land -- and I guess they feel it is their God-given right to relieve us of them. Don't get me wrong, I understand their problem. They are running out of land. It is all being sold to people like me and they feel their way of life is being threatened. I can't help that. Maybe it's time to take a closer look. This style of hunting is legal only east of the Blue Ridge and south of the Mason-Dixon line. Why do you suppose that is? Think about it.
> 
> Christine Williams Wooddy. DeWitt.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> In Richmond Times dispatch 1-9-2008. Another black eye for all hunters. Typical Dog chasers in action.
> http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/opinion/letters.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-01-09-0032.html



She seen illegal activity but failed to report it. first step in resolving a problem is to report it.:tongue:


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> She seen illegal activity but failed to report it. first step in resolving a problem is to report it.:tongue:


Uh........ short term memory loss? It's already been discussed and confirmed that calling to report a crime that can't be prosecuted is pointless. Like most residents in VA living in rural areas they already know it's pointless.
But that may change...........see below.


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## BigBirdVA

SENATE BILL NO. 263
Offered January 9, 2008
Prefiled January 8, 2008
A BILL to amend and reenact § 18.2-136 of the Code of Virginia, relating to retrieving dogs from the property of others; penalty.
----------
Patron-- Deeds
----------
Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice
----------

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That § 18.2-136 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:

§ 18.2-136. Right of certain hunters to go on lands of another; carrying firearms or bows and arrows prohibited.

A. Fox hunters and **** hunters, when the chase begins on other lands, may follow their dogs on prohibited lands, and hunters of all other game, when the chase begins on other lands, may go upon prohibited lands to retrieve their dogs, but may shall not carry firearms or bows and arrows on their persons or hunt any game while thereon. The use of vehicles to retrieve dogs on prohibited lands shall be allowed only with the permission of the landowner or his agent. Any person who goes on prohibited lands to retrieve his dogs pursuant to this section and who (i) carries his firearm or bow and arrow on his person or hunts while on the property or (ii) willfully refuses to identify himself when requested by the landowner or his agent to do so, is guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

B. Any firearm or bow and arrow carried by the person in a manner that violates clause (i) of subsection A shall, upon conviction of such person violating clause (i), be forfeited to the Commonwealth by order of the court trying the case. The forfeiture shall be enforced as provided in Chapter 22 (§ 19.2-369 et seq.) of Title 19.2. The officer or other person seizing the property shall immediately give notice to the attorney for the Commonwealth.

C. In addition to the penalty prescribed in subsection A, the court shall revoke the current hunting license, if any, of a person convicted of violating clause (i) of subsection A and prohibit the issuance of any hunting license to that person for the next license year. If the person hunts during this prohibited period, he is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Notification of such revocation or prohibition shall be forwarded to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries pursuant to subsections C and D of § 18.2-56.1.


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## BigBirdVA

*and another dog at large (AKA dog chasers)control measue*

It's starting................



> 3.2-6538. Governing body of any locality may prohibit dogs from running at large.
> 
> The governing body of any locality may prohibit the running at large of all or any category of dogs in all or any designated portion of such locality during such months as they may designate. Governing bodies may also require that dogs be confined, restricted or penned up during such periods. For the purpose of this section, a dog shall be deemed to run at large while roaming, running or self-hunting off the property of its owner or custodian and not under its owner's or custodian's immediate control. Any person who permits his dog to run at large, or remain unconfined, unrestricted or not penned up shall be deemed to have violated the provisions of this section.


----------



## 3sheets

MTNHunt said:


> And the only reason I am up this early is because my little squrril hunting buddy had to go outside.......look at this dog hunting stock below. Mans best friend, I love it :dog1:


Neat Squirrel Dog you got there; curious if he is part "Westy" (West Highland Terrier)??


You should be thanking me for keeping an close watchful eye on Hokieman for you. Without me doing that, you would have probably overlooked the fact that the VHDA has zero, zippo, nada designated representation for the Squirrel Dog Hunters as well as Coyote Dog Hunters on their Board of Directors!! :jaw: :biggrin1:


3sheets :bounce:


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## 3sheets

*I kinda enjoy cuttting & pasting ...*

... Hokieman classics, like this one!! 

""*The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is a Committee of autonomous organizations and individuals working in conjunction with the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc. a Virginia Political Action Committee registered with the Virginia State Board of Elections. All expenditures and receipts of the organization are reported in accordance with the Code of Virginia (Law). Financial reports are made quarterly and may be viewed at the State Board of Elections web site - http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/ 
Our By-laws require that the Board of Directors of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance shall consist of no less then eleven (11) nor more than twenty-three (23) members and shall include, to the greatest extent possible, representatives of every major geographic area of the state. 
The Membership shall also be representative of the varied hunting dogs interests of the hunters of the Commonwealth. At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter. *""


Other than absolutely no representation for the Squirrel Dog or Coyote Dog Hunters for their desiginated "Board of Directors", can anyone see any other problems with the above?? :set1_fishing: :lol3:


3sheets :bounce:


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## MTNHunt

3sheets said:


> Neat Squirrel Dog you got there; curious if he is part "Westy" (West Highland Terrier)??
> 
> 
> You should be thanking me for keeping an close watchful eye on Hokieman for you. Without me doing that, you would have probably overlooked the fact that the VHDA has zero, zippo, nada designated representation for the Squirrel Dog Hunters as well as Coyote Dog Hunters on their Board of Directors!! :jaw: :biggrin1:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Ha! Heck, I officially nominate myself and Scrappy to represent the squirrel dog treeing/chasing society........:wink:

He is a mix of a Russell Terrier and Schnauzer, and as friendly as a junk yard pit bull believe it or not Just kidding, he has a chip on his shoulder with other dogs because he believes he is 150 pounds.....chased two Walker deer hounds off my porch this year. My Black Lab that's runs lose at the house could care less about the stray deer hounds. I have to keep an eye on him(Scrappy) because he might meet his match one day. 

Anyway, He does great with squirrels, and it is a great way to get my 4 year old out in the woods enjoying hunting with Dad. We are going in the Morning, I have seen to many squirrels at the hunting club this season and it's time to get the deep fryer filled up........:hungry:


----------



## jfish

*Hold the Choke? Let's re-think this one...*

Bird, I will have to disagree with you on the "Why call, it does no good." On second thought CALL! Call everytime you see them breaking the law. In fact, call twice, have everyone who witnessed it call and don't stop calling till something is done!

Folks complianing is what got VDGIF looking at this issue. Now Pro Deer Chasers are arguing, were are the 900 calls? We goofed, or at least I did. I should have called everytime I saw or heard them dropping dogs where they weren't suppose to be. Whether VDGIF was able to do anything with it is secondary. The call is cheap why not call? You can bet come next season if things don't change VDGIF will need to hire more call takers come November. 

P.S. Did anyone hear about the wreck on I think I-95 last week? From what a source in VDGIF stated a deer and most of the hounds chasing it were hit. No people injured but a lot of vehicles damaged..


----------



## 3sheets

*No problem ...*



jfish said:


> The call is cheap why not call? You can bet come next season if things don't change VDGIF will need to hire more call takers come November.


... Hokieman and the VHDA should have their toll free "Missing Dog" and "Turn In a Tresspassor" hotlines up and running looooooong before then!! :cheer2: :nixon:


3sheets :bounce:


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## deepzak

3sheets said:


> ... Hokieman classics, like this one!!
> 
> ""*The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is a Committee of autonomous organizations and individuals working in conjunction with the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc. a Virginia Political Action Committee registered with the Virginia State Board of Elections. All expenditures and receipts of the organization are reported in accordance with the Code of Virginia (Law). Financial reports are made quarterly and may be viewed at the State Board of Elections web site - http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/
> Our By-laws require that the Board of Directors of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance shall consist of no less then eleven (11) nor more than twenty-three (23) members and shall include, to the greatest extent possible, representatives of every major geographic area of the state.
> The Membership shall also be representative of the varied hunting dogs interests of the hunters of the Commonwealth. At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter. *""
> 
> 
> Other than absolutely no representation for the Squirrel Dog or Coyote Dog Hunters for their desiginated "Board of Directors", can anyone see any other problems with the above?? :set1_fishing: :lol3:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


I'm guessing that the listed reps are for activities that use dogs? I don't believe that you can use dogs to hunt turkey, can you? I don't know (someone cut and paste for me). 

I see no representation for pheasant hunters, ratter's (yes, rat terriers are hunters), and how about pig hunters?


----------



## MTNHunt

Turkey dogs are used to flush the birds and then set up and try to call them to get back together. The most die-hard of all Turkey hunters that I know of have been using dogs for a long time. It's mainly one dog and it is usually a bird dog or type of dog used in quail/pheasant hunting. Actually it is quite a treat to hunt with someone who has a dog that is so well trained that it will sit so quite when you start calling the birds. Some hunters use sacks that they hid the dog in and put a leg over them to keep them quite. Ha! It's really not a chasing issue because that is not the object of using a dog for turkeys. However, I have shot plenty of turkeys off deer dogs who run them. Of course when it's legal. It helps now that I can have 4 of them #1 3 1/2 mag in my gun!!!!!!!!!!!:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

MTNHunt said:


> Turkey dogs are used to flush the birds and then set up and try to call them to get back together. The most die-hard of all Turkey hunters that I know of have been using dogs for a long time. It's mainly one dog and it is usually a bird dog or type of dog used in quail/pheasant hunting. Actually it is quite a treat to hunt with someone who has a dog that is so well trained that it will sit so quite when you start calling the birds. Some hunters use sacks that they hid the dog in and put a leg over them to keep them quite. Ha! It's really not a chasing issue because that is not the object of using a dog for turkeys. However, I have shot plenty of turkeys off deer dogs who run them. Of course when it's legal. It helps now that I can have 4 of them #1 3 1/2 mag in my gun!!!!!!!!!!!:wink:


1 shot = 1 bird. Of course that's when you actually hunt them and not chase them within shooting range. Personally I wouldn't shoot a bird like that. But we all have our standards. That's the one thing I've noticed about dog chasers. It's not the hunt, it's possession of the game animal in any manner one can that counts.


----------



## MTNHunt

You know, I am going to throw this one out there and I don't want to highjack the thread, but alot of anti-dog hunters don't really know alot about different tactics that are used to hunt game with dogs. IMO, that is. Traditionally, hounds are used for running deer, however due to limitation on land and tracks that are very small, a lot of deer dog hunters have begun to use Bird dogs, this is nothing new, my father has hunted with them past, and I am sure that others have too. This year at my club, we used them on some pieces that we had hunted with a group of 4-5 hunters and it was like shooting rabbits! We jumped 13 deer out of 500 acres that the dog usually just run right throught. The bird dogs will site chase and most will bark (some don't), but it is very fast, not like hound chasing where the deer is alot of time out in front of the pack. Most of the time the bird dog will not run the deer into the next county and will keep pushing the deer tell you shoot it. The only trick is that you need to line the piece that you are hunting up very tight and you must be very careful not to shoot to close to the dog. Most of the time the bird dog is directly on the deer. How about that for fun. Oh, the best thing is that the majority of the time you can call the dog up without tracking them for miles. In case you haven't realized yet by this post, I am planning on getting a couple next year.:tongue:


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> 1 shot = 1 bird. Of course that's when you actually hunt them and not chase them within shooting range. Personally I wouldn't shoot a bird like that. But we all have our standards. That's the one thing I've noticed about dog chasers. It's not the hunt, it's possession of the game animal in any manner one can that counts.


I think you mis read my post, the dog is used to flush the turkey not to shoot at the turkey. All the other tactics are the same, call the bird one shot one kill. Just as you use a turkey wing early in the morning by hitting the ground to make the birds fly off the roost or a hawk call to locate a flock. You just don't like dogs period 

During Deer season when turkey season is in, I will shoot the birds if the dogs hunting for deer jump them. Down your wayi in SE Virginia I know its not in season.


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> 1 shot = 1 bird. Of course that's when you actually hunt them and not chase them within shooting range. Personally I wouldn't shoot a bird like that. But we all have our standards. That's the one thing I've noticed about dog chasers. It's not the hunt, it's possession of the game animal in any manner one can that counts.


My standards are to make a clean kill and ethical kill, not to wound game and have them suffer. Give me a break, you will twist any story you read to make a person that uses dogs for any type of game look bad. Many of deer being chased by dog have been killed with one shot, contrary to what you believe.:zip:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> 1 shot = 1 bird. Of course that's when you actually hunt them and not chase them within shooting range. Personally I wouldn't shoot a bird like that. But we all have our standards. That's the one thing I've noticed about dog chasers. It's not the hunt, it's possession of the game animal in any manner one can that counts.



You just hate anything DOG. I have seen non dog hunters put feeders out to lure turkeys to stay on their property. I have seen them run themselves to break up a gang of turkeys just so they can call them back. Your life would be better if you owned a companion pet.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Uh........ short term memory loss? It's already been discussed and confirmed that calling to report a crime that can't be prosecuted is pointless. Like most residents in VA living in rural areas they already know it's pointless.
> But that may change...........see below.


I guess some need a manual to do it correctly.


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Neat Squirrel Dog you got there; curious if he is part "Westy" (West Highland Terrier)??
> 
> 
> You should be thanking me for keeping an close watchful eye on Hokieman for you. Without me doing that, you would have probably overlooked the fact that the VHDA has zero, zippo, nada designated representation for the Squirrel Dog Hunters as well as Coyote Dog Hunters on their Board of Directors!! :jaw: :biggrin1:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:



That is untrue many of our members hunt squirrel with a dog. I hunt them with a jack russel/feist mixed and enjoy watching them. their fun.:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> *That is untrue many of our members hunt squirrel with a dog. *I hunt them with a jack russel/feist mixed and enjoy watching them. their fun.:wink:


Now where in the dickens did I say that they didn't?? What I said was that based on you quote of:

""*Our By-laws require that the Board of Directors of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance shall consist of no less then eleven (11) nor more than twenty-three (23) members and shall include, to the greatest extent possible, representatives of every major geographic area of the state. 
The Membership shall also be representative of the varied hunting dogs interests of the hunters of the Commonwealth. At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter. *""

... That none of your dedicated Board of Director spots were reserved for Squirrell or Coyote Dog Hunters. ukey:



Deepzak, 

I wasn't ignoring you, but wanted to give Hokieman a fair shot at answering my little quiz as well. :wink:

Where I went to school the ... "At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter" *would equal == 15 *minimum, not the "*no less then eleven (11)" *that Hokieman sez!! :doh:

However, since it's almost that time of year again and based on his obvious tendency to be lower rather than higher, I am strongly considering asking Hokieman to do all the "ciphering" on my taxes this year!! 


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## deepzak

3sheets,
Thats very sporting of you, giving someone a chance. Some don't give anything a chance.

If your planning on hokie doing your taxes, be very careful. There is a pretty good chance of getting audited with addition like that. You had a very good catch there, I honestly didn't even notice it. I guess I had better pay closer attention.


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Now where in the dickens did I say that they didn't?? What I said was that based on you quote of:
> 
> ""*Our By-laws require that the Board of Directors of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance shall consist of no less then eleven (11) nor more than twenty-three (23) members and shall include, to the greatest extent possible, representatives of every major geographic area of the state.
> The Membership shall also be representative of the varied hunting dogs interests of the hunters of the Commonwealth. At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter. *""
> 
> ... That none of your dedicated Board of Director spots were reserved for Squirrell or Coyote Dog Hunters. ukey:
> 
> 
> 
> Deepzak,
> 
> I wasn't ignoring you, but wanted to give Hokieman a fair shot at answering my little quiz as well. :wink:
> 
> Where I went to school the ... "At a minimum, there shall be three (3) deer hunters, three (3) fox hunters, two (2) **** hunters, two (2) bear hunters, two (2) rabbit hunters, one (1) bird (Quail/Grouse) hunter, one (1) Turkey hunter and one (1) Waterfowl hunter" *would equal == 15 *minimum, not the "*no less then eleven (11)" *that Hokieman sez!! :doh:
> 
> However, since it's almost that time of year again and based on his obvious tendency to be lower rather than higher, I am strongly considering asking Hokieman to do all the "ciphering" on my taxes this year!!
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Then I guess that would mean that one or two or maybe three of the board members does both or maybe all three, . Hmmm:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Then I guess that would mean that one or two or maybe three of the board members does both or maybe all three, . Hmmm:wink:


Well there goes the 1 Board Member == 1 vote, right out the old window, hey?? :bs: :boom:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Well there goes the 1 Board Member == 1 vote, right out the old window, hey?? :bs: :boom:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Ok enuff BS. We are newly formed and if thetr is any position you think your qualified for just apply. only thing is you must support dog hunting in an ethical and professional manner. join up now glad to have you on the board.:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Ok enuff BS. We are newly formed and if thetr is any position you think your qualified for just apply. only thing is you must support dog hunting in an ethical and professional manner. join up now glad to have you on the board.:wink:


So let me get this straight, if I decide to join, you'll promise me a position on the "Board of Directors"?? Boy, I have really undervalued my true worth to your organization !! :set1_thinking:


3sheets :bounce:


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> You just hate anything DOG. I have seen non dog hunters put feeders out to lure turkeys to stay on their property. I have seen them run themselves to break up a gang of turkeys just so they can call them back. Your life would be better if you owned a companion pet.


No I'm not too fond of people that go into the woods and have game chased to their waiting slob rear end, shoot it and act like it's some big accomplishment. Go call one in this spring and stick and arrow in it and let me know if you feel like you did something? We have a fall season down here, all of archery. I let them pass and save my tags for spring where it's one on one, not 10 on 1 with 9 doing the work and 1 sitting on their behind. Again dog hunters don't care about the hunt or doing anything to actually "hunt" the game. Possession is all they care about. 


I have several companion animals thank you.

Sure many are killed by one shot. Many are not killed at all. If one is wounded it's too many. The very nature of shooting at moving game increases the chances for a miss or wound. I've heard the "dove shoot" deer hunts and when it's all said and done 2-3 deer are brought out. Where did all those other shots go? Regardless of how you try to slant it dog chasers are shooters, not hunters.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Ok enuff BS. We are newly formed and if thetr is any position you think your qualified for just apply. only thing is you must support dog hunting in an ethical and professional manner. join up now glad to have you on the board.:wink:


Those words don't go together. What's professional about slob hunters waiting for game to be chased to their waiting butts on the road side? You've got to be kidding me? LOL That's a hoot! Professional?  Professional lamers.

So a guy that comes up to a dog chase, has never been there before, gets driven or dropped off at a stand he didn't put up, and shoots a deer run out by a pack of hounds is some kind of professional?


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Those words don't go together. What's professional about slob hunters waiting for game to be chased to their waiting butts on the road side? You've got to be kidding me? LOL That's a hoot! Professional?  Professional lamers.
> 
> So a guy that comes up to a dog chase, has never been there before, gets driven or dropped off at a stand he didn't put up, and shoots a deer run out by a pack of hounds is some kind of professional?


typical.


----------



## MTNHunt

BigBirdVA said:


> Those words don't go together. What's professional about slob hunters waiting for game to be chased to their waiting butts on the road side? You've got to be kidding me? LOL That's a hoot! Professional?  Professional lamers.
> 
> So a guy that comes up to a dog chase, has never been there before, gets driven or dropped off at a stand he didn't put up, and shoots a deer run out by a pack of hounds is some kind of professional?


Big Bird,
I find your opinions out of all the anti-dog hunters to be very hypocritical, you rant and rave about how unsporting and lazy a deer dog hunter is, however you supposingly hunt in a club that runs dogs and does it all by the book. I guess your a part time professional lamer yourself during gun season? You talk out your :booty: as :vom: comes out you mouth in opinions that contradict themselves. You state that dog hunters are all lamers.:blah::blah: If your other post are true in that you have been in 8 or 9clubs that run dogs illegally in the past and now your in one that hunts them only in season, then you have made a long career pretending to be a professional lamer that hunts with dogs for deer. 

Oh, again your quote in that it would be more challenging to take a turkey with a bow, yes it would be, but don't you use a crossbow with a scope and a trigger? So I ask you in the world of AT who would consider this lame, I will pull out of my hat some percentages like you do, I say 90% of the membership. 

I find nothing competitive or challenging about that at all, I much rather shoot them with a rifle or bust them up with a DOG. 

And boy, I bet you give your guest member at your club a real warm, fuzzy, feeling about they first deer hunting experience with dogs. "HEY I AM GOING TO DROP YOU OFF ON THIS STAND DUDE, JUST WAIT FOR THE DEER TO POP OUT AND PULL THE TRIGGER, HELL ITS SO EASY A CAVEMAN COULD DO IT, STUPID."

:doh::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:


----------



## 3sheets

deepzak said:


> 3sheets,
> Thats very sporting of you, giving someone a chance. Some don't give anything a chance.
> 
> If your planning on hokie doing your taxes, be very careful. There is a pretty good chance of getting audited with addition like that. You had a very good catch there, I honestly didn't even notice it. I guess I had better pay closer attention.


Thanks Zak !!!! 
Hopefully, by the time I'm done coaching him up, everyone will be calling him H & R Hokieman!! roflmao :lol3: 


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## Moon

*You must live on Mars*

"No, What you have are landowners who aren't filing complaints and the law and game wardens who aren't enforcing it. There are enough current game laws and county laws in place if the officers and wardens would do their job and landowners would file their complaints."

You simply don't know what you are talking about. I've been a bowhunter in this part of the state for 44 years...........................and just happen to be a land owner too. If you truly believe the current laws are all that's needed to protect my property rights and my rights to my privacy you are in la la land.


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> "No, What you have are landowners who aren't filing complaints and the law and game wardens who aren't enforcing it. There are enough current game laws and county laws in place if the officers and wardens would do their job and landowners would file their complaints."
> 
> You simply don't know what you are talking about. I've been a bowhunter in this part of the state for 44 years...........................and just happen to be a land owner too. If you truly believe the current laws are all that's needed to protect my property rights and my rights to my privacy you are in la la land.



Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?


----------



## BigBirdVA

MTNHunt said:


> Big Bird,
> I find your opinions out of all the anti-dog hunters to be very hypocritical, you rant and rave about how unsporting and lazy a deer dog hunter is, however you supposingly hunt in a club that runs dogs and does it all by the book. I guess your a part time professional lamer yourself during gun season? You talk out your :booty: as :vom: comes out you mouth in opinions that contradict themselves. You state that dog hunters are all lamers.:blah::blah: If your other post are true in that you have been in 8 or 9clubs that run dogs illegally in the past and now your in one that hunts them only in season, then you have made a long career pretending to be a professional lamer that hunts with dogs for deer.
> 
> Oh, again your quote in that it would be more challenging to take a turkey with a bow, yes it would be, but don't you use a crossbow with a scope and a trigger? So I ask you in the world of AT who would consider this lame, I will pull out of my hat some percentages like you do, I say 90% of the membership.
> 
> I find nothing competitive or challenging about that at all, I much rather shoot them with a rifle or bust them up with a DOG.
> 
> And boy, I bet you give your guest member at your club a real warm, fuzzy, feeling about they first deer hunting experience with dogs. "HEY I AM GOING TO DROP YOU OFF ON THIS STAND DUDE, JUST WAIT FOR THE DEER TO POP OUT AND PULL THE TRIGGER, HELL ITS SO EASY A CAVEMAN COULD DO IT, STUPID."
> 
> :doh::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:


I don't hunt with them during dog season. Club before this one allowed still hunting on pieces other than the ones they were dogging on. I did that for the 3 years prior to this year. They all knew my views on dog hunting. The present one knows I haven't been on a dog hunt and don't ever plan on it. I've been bow only hunting for the last 6 years or so. 

I hunt in a dog club because they have all the leases. I and a group of others are looking to start a non-dog chaser club. Maybe this year it will happen. We started looking last fall and it takes time to get land. We have the funds and more than enough people to start one. Believe me when some comes up I'll be free of the dog chasers. When virtually ever piece of land is taken by dog chasers what other option is there? Everyone is aware of my views. I pay my dues and do what I'm supposed to do I just pack up late Nov and head to other places. I'm not a lamer staying to hunt with the dogs after bow/ML. How about you? 

Nice try but as usual dog chasers can't seem to get it right.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?


I made one 2 years ago. Read this and tell me why should I bother making another one? What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results?



> My name is Robert Everidge, and I am the Game Warden Supervisor for the area you have described in your previous e-mails. The running of dogs out of the hunting season has become more and more popular within the District these days. As the Communications Officer has advised, it's close to impossible to stop this from occurring in the off season. The fox season, with landowner permission can be open all year and the dogs can't read posted signs. We, as Game Wardens check these groups weekly and try to keep them off the roadways and out of posted property with their vehicles.
> 
> The only recourse to the problem would have to start with our Game Department board and the Legislature of Virginia. Our board information is available on our web site at [email protected] .
> 
> Thank You for your concern to this problem. Please let me know if you have any questions or if I can assist you in the future.
> 
> Sgt. Robert Everidge
> Department Of Game and Inland Fisheries
> 757-810-6662 Cell
> 888-556-6741 Pager
> 
> 
> -----------------------------Second Reply --------------------
> 
> No Sir.I'm sure they are running deer. They tell us they are fox dogs, or they got out of the pen, or any number of other things. I don't have any thing I can tell you that will help without a change in the seasons or laws.
> 
> Thanks, Sgt. Everidge


You must be turning into a dog. I've seen them chase their tail going in circles and not figuring it out. Kind of what you keep dong in this thread. You can't legally get it stopped so why call repeatedly? What the heck is so hard to understand about that? I figured it out after the first round of calling on dog chasers running out of season. I will be calling each and every time this year and I'm going to encourage others to do it as well. When the wardens are too busy chasing dogs to do real work they'll fix the problem for us. I'm also going to start trapping foxes with leg traps this year too since it's legal. Hope they keep their dogs where they belong. Laws can work both ways when people want to play games. What do you think Alpo, Eukanuba, or the cheap stuff? I'll let you know what works best.:rip:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I made one 2 years ago. Read this and tell me why should I bother making another one? What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results?
> 
> 
> You must be turning into a dog. I've seen them chase their tail going in circles and not figuring it out. Kind of what you keep dong in this thread. You can't legally get it stopped so why call repeatedly? What the heck is so hard to understand about that? I figured it out after the first round of calling on dog chasers running out of season. I will be calling each and every time this year and I'm going to encourage others to do it as well. When the wardens are too busy chasing dogs to do real work they'll fix the problem for us. I'm also going to start trapping foxes with leg traps this year too since it's legal. Hope they keep their dogs where they belong. Laws can work both ways when people want to play games. What do you think Alpo, Eukanuba, or the cheap stuff? I'll let you know what works best.:rip:


In your situation the landowner didn't call and press the issue. Thats the correct thing to do. If you see an illegal act call and report it. Let's hope you don't intentionally set out to trap a dog, there are laws you know.:wink:


----------



## bkjastrebsky

*hunting with dogs*

You must be turning into a dog. I've seen them chase their tail going in circles and not figuring it out. Kind of what you keep dong in this thread. You can't legally get it stopped so why call repeatedly? What the heck is so hard to understand about that? I figured it out after the first round of calling on dog chasers running out of season. I will be calling each and every time this year and I'm going to encourage others to do it as well. When the wardens are too busy chasing dogs to do real work they'll fix the problem for us. I'm also going to start trapping foxes with leg traps this year too since it's legal. Hope they keep their dogs where they belong. Laws can work both ways when people want to play games. What do you think Alpo, Eukanuba, or the cheap stuff? I'll let you know what works best.:rip:[/QUOTE]

Here you go man I check back on this thread about every other day just to see what the post are looking like. This is by far the most left field one I have read yet. You are correct when you say laws work both ways. But then when you want to make a comment about playing games and then that includes trying to trap peoples dogs I think you are gonna end up digging a deeper hole for yourself in this whole subject then you would like. I'm currently over in Iraq and I missed all hunting season but my dogs were still taken out and hunted with and If someone purposely trapped any of my dogs or any other hunters dogs for that matter thats a complete lack of respect and ethics. I think you need to look back at the heritage of hunting and how other people chose to hunt and then reflect on your own morals and ethics becasue apparently you are haveing trouble in that area.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> In your situation the landowner didn't call and press the issue. Thats the correct thing to do. If you see an illegal act call and report it. Let's hope you don't intentionally set out to trap a dog, there are laws you know.:wink:


There are laws for running deer out of season. They're not enforceable no matter how many times or ways you try to say it. Unless the guy says to the GW "Yes I'm chasing deer" or admits to the crime he's going to get off. You've got to be the thickest individual on this I've ever seen. I called, I emailed, another person called. It went NO WHERE. What is so hard to understand about that? 

Just wondering what's the difference in a lease holder calling or the owner? There shouldn't be one, against the law should be the same no matter who calls. The more one calls and bothers the owners, the more chance one has of loosing the land. Most have other things to do and don't want to be bothered.

The traps, all I have to say is "I'm trapping foxes, they're legal". Sound familiar? It should. 


Funny how touchy some get when it's their turn to have their hunting messed up a bit. But it's ok when they're doing the messing. I'm tired of having my hunting messed up and I'm going to stop it by doing whatever is necessary. If the law can't do I'll find another legal way to. Traps are legal. I think others need to quit using "heritage" as an excuse to justify the problems they create. If they keep their "heritage" in their own season and on their own land there won't be a problem. Many of us are tired of getting the crap end of the stick. 

That's a hoot that morals and ethics come out now. Where are they when one talks about running deer out of season? That shoe sure feels different on the other foot doesn't it?


----------



## jfish

*Attention Getter!*

First off let, me preface this with;
I would never intentionally set leg holds for the sole purpose of trapping someones dogs. However, I promise you this, after many years of fur trapping in my younger days , fox trapping is hard on hounds.

Isn't it funny how as soon as someone mentions doing something that by law is perfectly legal ie.. _fur trapping _but would spell disaster to a pack of hounds everyone changes their tune. Its ok if your deer chasing on your property spills over to my land and negatively impacts my hunting, its tradition, Va Heritage. But if I do something on my land that is perfectly legal that will most definitely negatively impact your style of hunting, folks have a different view. Keep using tradition and heritage as an excuse... Trapping has been here for a long time also. 

Bird is fed up! it's just that simple.. He is not the only still hunter that has had enough of other people's hounds ruining their hunt. No more excuses, no more apologies, no more Heritage bull... A Land Owner's rights are paramount, to include a private lease holder's right to no hounds.

As said over and over here there are good and bad hunters in both groups. But everyone knows that VDGIF can't enforce existing laws if they don't see it themselves or the offender admits it. Well the same thing applies to most all illegal activies in the woods. Fox trapping is legal.. if no one admits to setting the trap solely for hounds you will never prove it. Heck for that matter once the hammer drops on a hound, if no one witnesses it you will never get charged, much less convicted... It the same rationale bad deer hound hunters use when they drop the gate knowing good and well they are crossing someone else's property. It no secret what I am saying here. It's just that non-deer hound hunters are fed up and are starting to take matters into their own hands. 

Deer hound hunters are screaming, "All hunters must Unite, we have to save our sport." You're right, but if they truely believe this, come to the table and admit something has to be done to protect the rights of those who do not want hounds on their land. Stop saying there are sufficient laws governing this issue, nothing needs to change. Apparently there aren't adequate laws and something has to change! Until that happens there will always be division..

Some Deer Hound Hunters are living in denial?


----------



## ButchA

I agree... I don't know BigBird and/or have never met him. But from what I can see from his posts, he is fed up beyond the breaking point. You deer doggers have totally pi$$ed off the wrong guy!

I mean, whoa... if deer doggers keep pi$$ing off land owners, still hunters, etc... and next thing you know there's going to be trip wires, razor wire, land mines, and C4 explosives in the woods! :mg: :wink:

I have had my share of battles with deer doggers and unlike BigBird, I gave up. I just *refuse* to hunt east of the Blue Ridge. I am so fortunate, blessed, and probably extremely lucky, that I have a deer camp out in the GWNF on the other side of the Blue Ridge, away from the deer doggers. If I didn't have that deer camp and had to continually deal with deer doggers? Honest... I would probably quit hunting! :sad:

Deer doggers got too out of control, too big for the land acreage, and well, probably too ignorant of the game laws. Now that the spotlight is on them, the "bad clubs" are squirming like a worm on a hook. The "good clubs" are supportive of the DGIF and game laws, but have a deer in the headlights look like, "hey what'd we do wong?"

Again, the bad deer doggers have ruined it for everyone. Oh well....


----------



## Hokieman

Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is working towards a solution to the problem that exsits in a small group of deer hound hunters rather than the majority. I am not here to debate with anyone on this topic as it serves no purpose in resolving the issue at hand. I agree that a problem exisits and were working toward solutions for a resolution. if your interested in learning more join Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and attend our meetings. This forum or any other isn't going to resolve the current problems, it is only adding fuel to the fire. I came in peace to inform virginia resident hunting dog owners that they do have a means of exercising their political voice if they choose too by joining with us.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is working towards a solution to the problem that exsits in a small group of deer hound hunters rather than the majority. I am not here to debate with anyone on this topic as it serves no purpose in resolving the issue at hand. I agree that a problem exisits and were working toward solutions for a resolution. if your interested in learning more join Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and attend our meetings. This forum or any other isn't going to resolve the current problems, it is only adding fuel to the fire. I came in peace to inform virginia resident hunting dog owners that they do have a means of exercising their political voice if they choose too by joining with us.


The thing is Hokie, is that by joining VHDA you have to agree that you support running dogs on deer, and frankly I just don't think that is the case for many bow hunters on here. There are too many people that are upset that the dog hunters have destroyed their outdoor time. Honestly, I really don't care how you hunt, or what you hunt with as long as it doesn't affect any other person in a negative way. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Until you train your dogs (not you specifically, but dog chasers in general) to stay on their property and not disturb anybody, I cannot support their use. If it were possible to have your dogs run property next to mine without the possibility of the dogs coming onto mine and without the noise, I would be glad to have them chase your deer onto my property, but the dogs would have to stop at the property line (and no barking). You would also have to stop all the road hunters from gathering on the side of the road and slinging lead at running deer. If you can guarentee that these things will happen, I might be persuaded to join your little band, but I really don't see that happening and I don't think you see it happening either, right?


----------



## deepzak

bkjastrebsky said:


> You must be turning into a dog. I've seen them chase their tail going in circles and not figuring it out. Kind of what you keep dong in this thread. You can't legally get it stopped so why call repeatedly? What the heck is so hard to understand about that? I figured it out after the first round of calling on dog chasers running out of season. I will be calling each and every time this year and I'm going to encourage others to do it as well. When the wardens are too busy chasing dogs to do real work they'll fix the problem for us. I'm also going to start trapping foxes with leg traps this year too since it's legal. Hope they keep their dogs where they belong. Laws can work both ways when people want to play games. What do you think Alpo, Eukanuba, or the cheap stuff? I'll let you know what works best.:rip:
> 
> Here you go man I check back on this thread about every other day just to see what the post are looking like. This is by far the most left field one I have read yet. You are correct when you say laws work both ways. But then when you want to make a comment about playing games and then that includes trying to trap peoples dogs I think you are gonna end up digging a deeper hole for yourself in this whole subject then you would like. I'm currently over in Iraq and I missed all hunting season but my dogs were still taken out and hunted with and If someone purposely trapped any of my dogs or any other hunters dogs for that matter thats a complete lack of respect and ethics. I think you need to look back at the heritage of hunting and how other people chose to hunt and then reflect on your own morals and ethics becasue apparently you are haveing trouble in that area.


I've thought about it for a while this morning, and.........



jfish said:


> First off let, me preface this with;
> I would never intentionally set leg holds for the sole purpose of trapping someones dogs. However, I promise you this, after many years of fur trapping in my younger days , fox trapping is hard on hounds.
> 
> Isn't it funny how as soon as someone mentions doing something that by law is perfectly legal ie.. _fur trapping _but would spell disaster to a pack of hounds everyone changes their tune. Its ok if your deer chasing on your property spills over to my land and negatively impacts my hunting, its tradition, Va Heritage. But if I do something on my land that is perfectly legal that will most definitely negatively impact your style of hunting, folks have a different view. Keep using tradition and heritage as an excuse... Trapping has been here for a long time also.
> 
> Bird is fed up! it's just that simple.. He is not the only still hunter that has had enough of other people's hounds ruining their hunt. No more excuses, no more apologies, no more Heritage bull... A Land Owner's rights are paramount, to include a private lease holder's right to no hounds.
> 
> As said over and over here there are good and bad hunters in both groups. But everyone knows that VDGIF can't enforce existing laws if they don't see it themselves or the offender admits it. Well the same thing applies to most all illegal activies in the woods. Fox trapping is legal.. if no one admits to setting the trap solely for hounds you will never prove it. Heck for that matter once the hammer drops on a hound, if no one witnesses it you will never get charged, much less convicted... It the same rationale bad deer hound hunters use when they drop the gate knowing good and well they are crossing someone else's property. It no secret what I am saying here. It's just that non-deer hound hunters are fed up and are starting to take matters into their own hands.
> 
> Deer hound hunters are screaming, "All hunters must Unite, we have to save our sport." You're right, but if they truely believe this, come to the table and admit something has to be done to protect the rights of those who do not want hounds on their land. Stop saying there are sufficient laws governing this issue, nothing needs to change. Apparently there aren't adequate laws and something has to change! Until that happens there will always be division..
> 
> Some Deer Hound Hunters are living in denial?


I don't think I could have said it better with out getting banned. Thank you Jfish. :thumbs_up


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is working towards a solution to *the problem that exsits in a small group of deer hound hunters rather than the majority*. I am not here to debate with anyone on this topic as it serves no purpose in resolving the issue at hand.


Hokieman,

I'm rather curious as to know what % that "*small group of deer hound hunters*" is; is it 5%, 10%, 20% etc. of the total number of "deer hound hunters" (notice, your choice words, not mine)?? :wink:


3sheets :bounce:


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## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Hokieman,
> 
> I'm rather curious as to know what % that "*small group of deer hound hunters*" is; is it 5%, 10%, 20% etc. of the total number of "deer hound hunters" (notice, your choice words, not mine)?? :wink:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


I personally feel it is less than 5% IMO.


----------



## Moon

*Huh?*

"Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?"

So you are keeping count 

As Bird and many of us know by now, your continued calling for complaints to DGIF for deer chasing dog law breakers is absurd as there is no way they can control the sheer number of property encroachments going on in SE Virginia resulting from deer chasing practices. I have a better way of ending this crap around my property and it does not depend on law enforcement. It has to do with timber company leases. You figure it out.

And your dog alliance I think we are on the verge of creating a SOUTHEASTERN VIRGINIANS TO END DEER CHASING ALLIANCE.

I just today found a deer chasing dog on my property that had fallen into a hole and could not get out. I guess the dog had been in the hole for 3 or 4 days. I got the dog out of the hole, fed it and gave it water then called the owner. Yet again, my day and my plans for today were changed by another's actions. I'm sick of it. My bowhunting acitivities encroach on no one's privacy
and affects them in no way. I expect the same from others that hunt but know for a fact that deer chasing, as it is today, will continue to be a negative part of my life. I'm not giving up in my fight to end the senseless method of so-called "hunting". To others that are affected as I am, I hope you too will continue in our effort to end it.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> The thing is Hokie, is that by joining VHDA you have to agree that you support running dogs on deer, and frankly I just don't think that is the case for many bow hunters on here. There are too many people that are upset that the dog hunters have destroyed their outdoor time. Honestly, I really don't care how you hunt, or what you hunt with as long as it doesn't affect any other person in a negative way. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Until you train your dogs (not you specifically, but dog chasers in general) to stay on their property and not disturb anybody, I cannot support their use. If it were possible to have your dogs run property next to mine without the possibility of the dogs coming onto mine and without the noise, I would be glad to have them chase your deer onto my property, but the dogs would have to stop at the property line (and no barking). You would also have to stop all the road hunters from gathering on the side of the road and slinging lead at running deer. If you can guarentee that these things will happen, I might be persuaded to join your little band, but I really don't see that happening and I don't think you see it happening either, right?


You need to be more realistic. Nothing in life is a gaurentee. can you quarentee if I quarentee that you can stop crime from happening at all.


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## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> "Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?"
> 
> So you are keeping count
> 
> As Bird and many of us know by now, your continued calling for complaints to DGIF for deer chasing dog law breakers is absurd as there is no way they can control the sheer number of property encroachments going on in SE Virginia resulting from deer chasing practices. I have a better way of ending this crap around my property and it does not depend on law enforcement. It has to do with timber company leases. You figure it out.
> 
> And your dog alliance I think we are on the verge of creating a SOUTHEASTERN VIRGINIANS TO END DEER CHASING ALLIANCE.
> 
> I just today found a deer chasing dog on my property that had fallen into a hole and could not get out. I guess the dog had been in the hole for 3 or 4 days. I got the dog out of the hole, fed it and gave it water then called the owner. Yet again, my day and my plans for today were changed by another's actions. I'm sick of it. My bowhunting acitivities encroach on no one's privacy
> and affects them in no way. I expect the same from others that hunt but know for a fact that deer chasing, as it is today, will continue to be a negative part of my life. I'm not giving up in my fight to end the senseless method of so-called "hunting". To others that are affected as I am, I hope you too will continue in our effort to end it.


That is my point! not enough game wardens around to do the job, so instead of trying to ban hunting with hounds, someone should have been pressing the issue of why DGIF isn't up to date with hiring new enforcement officers. The demand is high and what do they do spend millions of dollars building wildlife watching trails instead of spending the funds were it will best be served.:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Moonkryket said:


> "Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?"
> 
> So you are keeping count
> 
> As Bird and many of us know by now, your continued calling for complaints to DGIF for deer chasing dog law breakers is absurd as there is no way they can control the sheer number of property encroachments going on in SE Virginia resulting from deer chasing practices. I have a better way of ending this crap around my property and it does not depend on law enforcement. It has to do with timber company leases. You figure it out.
> 
> And your dog alliance I think we are on the verge of creating a SOUTHEASTERN VIRGINIANS TO END DEER CHASING ALLIANCE.
> 
> *I just today found a deer chasing dog on my property that had fallen into a hole and could not get out. I guess the dog had been in the hole for 3 or 4 days. I got the dog out of the hole, fed it and gave it water then called the owner. Yet again, my day and my plans for today were changed by another's actions. I'm sick of it. My bowhunting acitivities encroach on no one's privacy
> and affects them in no way. I expect the same from others that hunt but know for a fact that deer chasing, as it is today, will continue to be a negative part of my life. I'm not giving up in my fight to end the senseless method of so-called "hunting". To others that are affected as I am, I hope you too will continue in our effort to end it*.


Don't forget to call Monday and report the incident to the VDGIF; if they happen to ask why you are reporting it now, tell em Hokieman/Derick and the VDHA want "accurate numbers". You may also want to consider sending the VHDA a bill for you phone calls, time, & services rendered!! :wink: 


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## deepzak

Moonkryket said:


> "Out of those 906 complaints to DGIF, How many did you make?"
> 
> So you are keeping count
> 
> As Bird and many of us know by now, your continued calling for complaints to DGIF for deer chasing dog law breakers is absurd as there is no way they can control the sheer number of property encroachments going on in SE Virginia resulting from deer chasing practices. I have a better way of ending this crap around my property and it does not depend on law enforcement. It has to do with timber company leases. You figure it out.
> 
> And your dog alliance I think we are on the verge of creating a SOUTHEASTERN VIRGINIANS TO END DEER CHASING ALLIANCE.
> 
> I just today found a deer chasing dog on my property that had fallen into a hole and could not get out. I guess the dog had been in the hole for 3 or 4 days. I got the dog out of the hole, fed it and gave it water then called the owner. Yet again, my day and my plans for today were changed by another's actions. I'm sick of it. My bowhunting acitivities encroach on no one's privacy
> and affects them in no way. I expect the same from others that hunt but know for a fact that deer chasing, as it is today, will continue to be a negative part of my life. I'm not giving up in my fight to end the senseless method of so-called "hunting". To others that are affected as I am, I hope you too will continue in our effort to end it.


You can put me down as a member. :nixon:

Did the dog you found have a current rabies vaccination tag on it's collar? If not, you probably should have reported it to Animal Control also. Not having a current vaccination from a licensed vet is a crime. Also, if it was found in Virginia Beach City or Chesapeake it needs to have a city license. Just one more way to get the job done. :ninja: Did the owner seem concerned that his or her dog was missing? What reason/excuse did they give for the dog being out on your property?


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> That is my point! not enough game wardens around to do the job, so instead of trying to ban hunting with hounds, someone should have been pressing the issue of why DGIF isn't up to date with hiring new enforcement officers. The demand is high and what do they do spend millions of dollars building wildlife watching trails instead of spending the funds were it will best be served.:wink:


I don't know if its millions, but VDGIF serves ALL outdoor activities.


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## rattus58

*I don't know what all the fuss is about....*

From Freedom Fields Farms taken from a Google Search on Fox hunting in Virginia.

The Foxhunting Controversy

The controversy over Foxhunting as a blood sport is not a new one. Originally, hunts were organized by farmers and landowners to cull the over population of foxes and deer that were damaging their livestock and crops. In these cases, the goal of the hunt was, and in some cases in Europe, still is, to kill the quarry. Proponents in England consider hunting as a means to effectively control over population of the species as it is the weak, old or diseased animals that are culled. In addition, hunting with hounds is a more selective means of killing than shooting is, which often only injures the animal and leaves it to die a long and difficult death. If the animal survives the shooting, it is often maimed and at a disadvantage with regards to hunting and surviving attacks by other predators.

In North America, where coyotes and bobcats are also hunted on horseback, the goal of the hunt is rarely to kill the animal. Quarry that is treed or goes to earth is considered "accounted for" and may not be forced to jump out of the tree or be dug out of its earth in order to continue the hunt. In the rare case that an animal is to be killed, it is done so quickly and humanely by the hunt staff. The species used as quarry are themselves accomplished hunters and as such are worthy opponents in the game of cat and mouse. While no one can know what a fox is thinking, there have been reports of foxes stopping to hunt, doubling back on the hounds, or running back and forth past its own earth, all while being chased by the hounds. While still considered a "blood sport", the manner in which foxhunting in North America is carried out does have certain differences to the traditional hunts in England and Europe.

*Foxhunters as a group and individually, demonstrate a deep appreciation for the environment they use for hunting activities and respect for all other users, particularly the wildlife, which are seen as opponents in a game rather than as candidates for extinction.*

Maybe them holes should dug to provide for "deeper" appreciation.... 

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> I don't know if its millions, but VDGIF serves ALL outdoor activities.


Yes your right. DGIF does serve all outdoor activites but the past few years they haven't, The quail population has dwindle down to almost nothing. Their lack of mis management on wildlife is getting big attention.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> You can put me down as a member. :nixon:
> 
> Did the dog you found have a current rabies vaccination tag on it's collar? If not, you probably should have reported it to Animal Control also. Not having a current vaccination from a licensed vet is a crime. Also, if it was found in Virginia Beach City or Chesapeake it needs to have a city license. Just one more way to get the job done. :ninja: Did the owner seem concerned that his or her dog was missing? What reason/excuse did they give for the dog being out on your property?


All of them were great questions and would like to know the answer.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Yes your right. DGIF does serve all outdoor activites but the past few years they haven't, The quail population has dwindle down to almost nothing. Their lack of mis management on wildlife is getting big attention.


Hokie, I think what you ment to say was "their mis-management of wildlife is getting big attention." But in reality it's their mis-management of funds for wildlife. This occurs at all levels of government. Look at VA's roads, this state has ginormous taxes on vehicles and gas that are supposed to go to road maintenance and building, yet roads around here are terrible. Where does that money go? To a bunch of fat cats and their cronies.



Hokieman said:


> All of them were great questions and would like to know the answer.


Thank you. I asked Moonkryket to read these posts on the Poll where he also posted the story. Hopefully he reads this.


----------



## Moon

*Do see what I mean?*

Although I went to the farm to get MY things done yesterday, I spent 1 hour trying to get a dog out of a hole on my property that had probably been there 3 to 5 days and in bad shape. What continues to happen is an accumulative affect on me and everything I do on MY property!!!!

To the best of my knowlege the dog only had the owner's name and his phone # on the collar. Yes, I could drive 20 miles to the nearest county dog shelter and take away even more of my time doing what I NEEDED to do. I should have let the dog go but I knew it would probably die since the owner likely had given up on the dog and was not looking for it anymore. I love dogs and they are not the problem. It's the owners, idiotic laws that can't be enforced and deer chasing in general.


----------



## jfish

*Fix*

MOON,

I don't know you but if you had a number or someone that you could call and get a _real_ response, would you be less irritated? An effective system in place where an official responds and retrieves the animal, follows up with holding the owner accountable if there are any violations, etc.. Would you have felt better about having your day interrupted? Sure you're tired of interruptions of your time but if there was a real response to the problem it wouldn't piss folks off so bad. If you could make a simple call and knew the problem would be followed up on I'm sure it would reduce the aggravation. I'm not talking about lip service, I mean someone comes out, takes the animal and the owner is held responsible...

Just an Idea????


----------



## BigBirdVA

I had these numbers but didn't have time to crunch them. Dog chasers say that without dogs being able to hunt certain terrain, like pine thickets the deer population would explode. The total kill or damage permits issued in 2007 was 2529. There were .054 per square mile issued west of the Blue Ridge and there were .076 per square mile issued east of the Blue Ridge. So how come the population is more out of control in dog chasing lands? 

Deer kill totals for 2006.
WBR (west Blue Ridge) they kill 5.16 deer per sq mile. They also do it with only 2 weeks of gun. EBR (east of the Blue Ridge) they kill 6.4 per sq mile but they have 7 weeks or so of hunting. Again if you take the number and facts and look at them and not "tradition" the dog chasing doesn't add up. BTW these numbers and data are straight from a biologist with the VDGIF who gave me all these goodies - along with more........
Another tidbit, more deer are killed by rifle than shotgun in VA. Where are most shotgun only counties? What form of hunting is the shotgun the preferred weapon? Dog chaser counties. Again it doesn't add up. 

I'm working on a lot of numbers to support my argument against "tradition" to take to VDGIF.


----------



## BigBirdVA

jfish said:


> MOON,
> 
> I don't know you but if you had a number or someone that you could call and get a _real_ response, would you be less irritated? An effective system in place where an official responds and retrieves the animal, follows up with holding the owner accountable if there are any violations, etc.. Would you have felt better about having your day interrupted? Sure you're tired of interruptions of your time but if there was a real response to the problem it wouldn't piss folks off so bad. If you could make a simple call and knew the problem would be followed up on I'm sure it would reduce the aggravation. I'm not talking about lip service, I mean someone comes out, takes the animal and the owner is held responsible...
> 
> Just an Idea????


That would take a complete change in the animal/pet laws. See below, but a dog at large includes pets as well as hunting hounds. You start fighting the animal lover groups anytime you suggest any change in pet laws. Many of these rural counties are understaffed in the animal control department and it would be a real chore to take every lost hound in. Unless you called and they sent a white peta van out to get the hunting dog.

We've all seen these dogs on the roadside and back in the woods. I posted on an event by a person I was informed of and Hokieman tried to say how do you know it wasn't a fox hound or a pet hound? Again the deer doggers just pass any problems off on others and their answer is "nope not us, it's not a problem we're a part of " and then back to business as usual.


----------



## Moon

*I'll need to hire a full time person*

to do this:thumbs_do Let's see........................what would his job title be??? How about "Private Property Defense Officer" ................or " Private Property Privacy Insurer".......................or..........................

The ad for such a person would read like this:

Wanted: Person with animal (2 and 4 legged) control experience to work 7 days per week, 24 hours per day from October 1 through january 6 in an effort to protect and rid my property of deer chasing trespassers thereby hopefully allowing me to live my life without constant distraction and anguish.


Bird, keep up the good work. I'm working at it from a different angle but I'm sure our efforts are to acheive the same results.


----------



## crazyfarmer

BigBirdVA said:


> Another tidbit, more deer are killed by rifle than shotgun in VA.


seems to me you think of dog hunters as I do those that use rifles. I cant stand the thought of a rifle and personally dont think those should be allowed to use. Whats the sport in something if you cant get it within 30-40 yards before shooting. Shooting 200-350 yards isnt a sport, its a sniper:thumbs_do

the same can be said about dogs from your point of view.. what sport is it where dogs chase a deer to you. What sport is it cause the deer doesnt have a chance with 20 people around a 100 acre block

everyone above has very good points.. I really like where someone said the dog hunters that want all hunters to unite should set down and try to settle things so landowners dont get so mad. The problem that occurs is that every season, 1 or 2 idiots in eveyr club think they can go anywhere and do anything. Then it just looks bad on everyone in that club. We had a group of still hunters rent about 1500 acres behind my house. They hated dog hunters. Well, believe it or not they were poaching deer, stashing them in their tool boxes, killing turkeys out of season, and so on. They had a writeup in the paper about them. I believe 10 of them lost their licenses and hefty fines were given out. That looked bad on every still hunter at the time, just like one stray hunting dog left out does for the dog chasers.

arguing wont fix anything.. it just adds more fuel to the other side for a swift comeback so they each think they look good or are proving a point. Everyone can argue all day long here.. everyone is right in their own point of view also. I know I do hunt about 80% more form a stand than with dogs now just because I dont want the hassle of dealing with either group now. Everywhere you turn, someone is fighting over nothing..............!

if someone breaks the law, they should be punished for that.. I agree with that 100%


----------



## BigBirdVA

crazyfarmer said:


> ...........if someone breaks the law, they should be punished for that.. I agree with that 100%


First we have to have that law. Or one that can result in a conviction.


----------



## crazyfarmer

BigBirdVA said:


> First we have to have that law. Or one that can result in a conviction.


BB, which law are you talking about btw? I lost what everyone was getting at trying to read 4050696707 posts in this topic LOL:embara:

I do know that even hunting with dogs throughout the year, I dont think its right for someone being able to walk on your land to get their dogs, even if you cant carry a gun or drive in. Its still your land and you should have control over it. 

I believe its a law now, but no dog hunter should be able to turn their hounds out during bow season or ML season. The months before that should be the training periods when no one is trying to hunt

No one should be allowed to hunt from the edge of a paved road either, even if they are on the other side of the ditch. Their should be a 30ft law or something. That alone gives dog hunters and all a bad rap

If you dont have permission to hunt the land, then dont turn your dops loose 10 yards from it saying you where trying to hunt the other block. Now if you honesty turned the pack out 2-3 miles from that track and they ended up there, well its nothing that can be done. Thats the case where we hunt. We try to avoid posted land, but no matter how hard we try, some dogs will get by. 

Every club will have its idoits. If the presidents of those clubs would kick them when they first do wrong then half of them would clean up their acts. I know the club down the road from me did that just this season. 

Lastly, if hunters would respect the wishes of others, including landowners, still hunters, and so forth everyone maybe able to get along. But still hunters and landowners hve to realize, that no matter what sometime throughout the year some dog may stray onto their land. Hopefully it wasnt intended to happen by the dog chaser club. Its gonna happen though. When it does, the landowner should be able to just call the club and say hey, I have 1-2 of your hounds. We were trying to still hunt and they came running through the woods. Then hopefully the owner would say, im truly sorry since we were trying to stop them before they got that far but they got by us. 

Everyone just assumes the other party if out to get them now-a-days. Usually nothing was meant to happen on purpose, but it always seems that way. Yes its some that do these things on purpose. Those should be the ones that lose their hunting rights. But I agree with both sides on everything said. Neither is right, and neither is wrong.


----------



## BigBirdVA

An enforceable one for chasing out of season. I had virtually every Sat messed up during bow by deer hounds. That's not an accident. I could hear the person arrive, then hear the dogs get excited in the pen. Then hear a few dogs coming my way right after that. 8-9 AM every Sat. There is almost zero land where the pens are (5 acres in a strip maybe). They're let loose to run our land because we got the lease and they didn't.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> An enforceable one for chasing out of season. I had virtually every Sat messed up during bow by deer hounds. That's not an accident. I could hear the person arrive, then hear the dogs get excited in the pen. Then hear a few dogs coming my way right after that. 8-9 AM every Sat. There is almost zero land where the pens are (5 acres in a strip maybe). They're let loose to run our land because we got the lease and they didn't.


You had all that happen to you and still manage to kill 2 bucks this year with a bow. Your a true woodsman.:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> You had all that happen to you and still manage to kill 2 bucks this year with a bow. Your a true woodsman.:wink:


1 was in the mountains. You know the place they do so well without the use of dogs. I probably could have shot another but I needed to move my stand location over to where the neighbors dogs always run the deer through every Sat. The deer I shot was on it's natural movement route. Anticipating dog interference in MY season is something that I didn't want or plan on doing. I know some are real proud of dog chased deer during bow but some of us think it's a lamers tactic.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> 1 was in the mountains. You know the place they do so well without the use of dogs. I probably could have shot another but I needed to move my stand location over to where the neighbors dogs always run the deer through every Sat. The deer I shot was on it's natural movement route. Anticipating dog interference in MY season is something that I didn't want or plan on doing. I know some are real proud of dog chased deer during bow but some of us think it's a lamers tactic.


Don't discredit something you've never tried.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Don't discredit something you've never tried.


I've gun hunted over dogs long ago. Felt it was cheating or for noobies and other incompetent types. Sure you would be more qualified to comment in that area.


Many places don't allow the snagging of fish with bare hooks. The reasoning is simple enough - you didn't catch it fair and square. They recognize that the possession is not the goal - it's how one came in possession of the fish. Same with dog chasers. They didn't hunt it or take it in a natural manner. Kind of like hunting next to a fire where all the animals are run out of a tract of land. How come doggers can't see that or have that sense of accomplishment? The only difference in doggers and fire is the doggers can do it again tomorrow.


----------



## ButchA

Hokieman said:


> Don't discredit something you've never tried.


Let me step in here and try to answer this....

I sort of tried it. Remember that story of me and the lost/separated deer dog in Cumberland State Forest? Okay, so maybe I haven't tried a full deer dog hunt with others and a pack of 20-25 dogs. But you get my point.

If deer dogging is done properly and doesn't bother anyone else, then I guess it's okay. It's just not my thing, but, well, ....whatever.

I want to be proud of an accomplishment of getting a nice 8 pointer, that I worked hard on getting. i.e., I scouted, I studied topo maps, I played the wind, I was extra careful with noise and scent control. There was nobody else and most importantly there were no deer dogs. It was me and me alone going on one one with an 8 pointer on his own turf.

I would feel a little weird if I got an 8 pointer with a group of 15 guys and 20-25 deer dogs. It no longer becomes a one on one situation. It becomes a team effort. I guess I would feel like I didn't give the 8 pointer a fighting chance if I hunted as a team. I would feel like I didn't give him a chance to bust me at 25-30 yards, because I did something stupid and moved or made noise which alerted him. I guess it's not much of a challenge, because a pack of deer dogs ran him to me, right into an ambush, and I blast him with buckshot.

I prefer to lure an 8 pointer to me from up in my treestand, where he still has no idea where I am or anything, but is looking for a doe that he hears (Primos L'il Can). If everything goes as planned and I am careful, silent, and don't blow it, he'll come to about 20-25 yards from my stand. Then, _THWACK!!!_ a Beman ICS Hunter 340 arrow with a Magnus Stinger broadhead, nail him right right in the chest, puncturing both lungs, and he drops dead 40-50 yards away.

Deer doggers have their style of hunting, and I have mine. Hopefully, somehow, someway, we can all work this out.


----------



## Moon

*You are giving them credit for being "hunters"*

and it's not hunting......................it's *CHASING*. Plain and simple. The only hunting they do is looking for their dogs on others' property


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> and it's not hunting......................it's *CHASING*. Plain and simple. The only hunting they do is looking for their dogs on others' property


Roanoke Times Article

Respect Virginia's hound hunting heritage

John E. Boon Sr.

Boon is a native of Roanoke, a retired Navy officer and an avid hunter. He lives in Roanoke County.


The commentary by Marlene Condon ("Time to re-evaluate hunting with hounds," Dec. 20) calls for re-evaluation of the Virginia tradition of hunting with hounds. The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries has funded a study to do just that; however, the purpose of the study is to examine and resolve issues surrounding hunting with hounds.

The department is clear in its commitment to preserve the tradition, not to eliminate it. It has teamed with Virginia Tech for this effort and has formed the Hound Hunting Stakeholder Committee to make recommendations. Hunting with dogs is not cruel to the animals as Condon states. It is not necessarily cruel to the game being hunted and doesn't negatively affect many other species.

The decline in woodcock and quail in Virginia is due to loss of natural habitat and not to hunting with dogs. Ground nests are much more likely to be raided and destroyed by raccoons, foxes and bobcats than they are by hunting hounds.

There is an effort in Virginia to restore quail habitat by planting native grasses and restoring fence lines and by building the population of birds.

The first hunting I did as a boy was quail hunting with my father and grandfather behind very well trained hounds. Those hounds flushed many birds, but never raided a nest. Hunting hounds do not run uncontrolled as Condon states. They are trained for a specific role and they follow that training.

Condon writes that abandoned hunting dogs are a common sight in Virginia. There are certainly many abandoned dogs running loose in some areas of our countryside, but these are most likely not hunting dogs. They are more likely to be unwanted pets.

Hunting dogs represent a substantial investment in initial purchase -- often several thousand dollars -- and in training and maintenance. They are not likely to be abandoned even when they are too old to hunt because their master has become too attached.

A lost hunting dog will be searched for by his master until found. Many hunting dogs now are fitted with transmitters on their collars so that they can be more easily located, and hunters will remain in the woods or fields until they have retrieved their dogs. A hunter may go onto "prohibited" (private) land to retrieve his dogs, but he must do so without arms and only on foot unless he has obtained permission from the land owner to use a vehicle. A hunter who refuses to identify himself to the landowner is guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

Condon also tells us that chased animals are "absolutely terrified." A bear, ****, deer, fox or rabbit being chased by hunting dogs is better described as just being annoyed. If Condon could witness a deer being brought down by two or more coyotes or a bobcat or fox rush into a flock of wild turkeys, then she could see terrified animals.

She has presented a very distorted picture of hunting with dogs, which is her right to do, but if one wants to review the facts and then decide the issue they need to look well beyond her commentary. They can look to the regulations for hunting and trapping in Virginia, contact DGIF for a copy of the brochure on the hunting with hounds study and talk with hunters and game wardens before forming a final opinion.

Condon's commentary may play well with newcomers to the commonwealth and to those city dwellers recently moved to the country, but it certainly doesn't sit well with those throughout Virginia from the Tidewater area to the Blue Ridge and beyond who hold the traditional hunting heritage with or without dogs to be our right.

We understand that we must also respect the rights of landowners and those of nature lovers with whom we share our federal and state lands. However, they also need to be respectful of the hunters' rights. We must come to a mutual understanding of the issues and that is what the hunting with hounds study is to do. The DGIF Web site explains that its aim is "to preserve the tradition of hunting, including hunting with hounds, in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike, and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens."


----------



## BigBirdVA

Thanks Derick for yet another cut-n-paste. Quite a nice fairy tale he's spinning. Just another dog chaser spouting drivel about how all is well in dog chaser land.


Found this pic of one of your kids on another forum you posted on. It's all starting to come together now.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Don't discredit something you've never tried.


Hokie, are you freely admitting to running dogs during bow season? Because this is what your response to BB is saying. 

He said "I know some are real proud of dog chased deer during bow but some of us think it's a lamers tactic." and your response is above. Almost every county I can think of, it is illegal to run dogs during archery season. Do we need to be contacting VDGIF?


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hunting deer with dogs an emotional issue

By Bill Cochran


> Curt Lytle was clearly nervous. Never mind that his business card says, among other things, that he is a speaker. And he has talked before some huge crowds, like during the weigh-in of the 2003 Bassmaster Classic when he placed fifth.
> 
> But this time was different. This time was absent of swagger. This time was from the heart.
> 
> Standing before the board of the state Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, Lytle, who lives in Zuni, told about fulfilling his dream when he purchased 160 acres of his own for bowhunting, bird watching and wildlife photography.
> 
> “I have done a lot for the habitat,” said Lytle, who is a professional bass fishermen sponsored by Ranger and Yamaha. The efforts include a nice chunk of quail cover and a bunch of bluebird boxes.
> 
> But his dream has been spoiled by hunting clubs that send their hounds across his property to chase deer. Never mind that they are uninvited and unwanted, and violate the tranquility that Lytle believes should be his. They just come.
> 
> And what can you do? Under Virginia law, not much. It can seem to Lytle and other landowners who have been abused by hound hunters that dogs have more rights than landowners.
> 
> “I feel like my hands are tied,” Lytle told board members. “If you don’t protect the landowners and the landowner’s rights, I don’t know what the future of deer hunting is going to be.”
> 
> Lytle wadded up his notes and set them aside. He said he forgot half what he wanted to say. His eyes grew moist. When a red light flashed on at the speakers stand, indicating his time was up, Lytle didn’t see it.
> 
> He said he understood hunting deer with dogs is a long-held tradition in Virginia. He doesn’t want to stop it. He just believes that people, like him, who don’t want to be part of it, should get some respect on their own property.
> 
> There were emotions on the other side, too.
> 
> C.W. Miller, the president of a deer hunting club in Gloucester County, pointed out the positive aspects of hunting deer with dogs.
> 
> Dog hunters provide more revenue for the local economy than any other form of deer hunting, he said. They also help control the deer herd while keeping crop damage down, because their dogs can nose deer out of the thickets and marshes where they otherwise would escape other hunters.
> 
> Then there are those intangible things, hard to describe: the camaraderie, the storytelling, the memories, the music of hounds flowing across the frosty air, the introduction of youngsters to the tradition.
> 
> Miller admitted, as do most creditable dog hunters, that there are outlaws in their ranks and they must be dealt with for the good of the tradition.
> 
> “We should not let these bad apples spoil it for everyone,” he said.
> 
> Board members could have backed away from this controversy and told Lytle, Miller and the hundreds of others who have responded to the DGIF Web site on the issue that their hands are tied, that this is a matter for the General Assembly.
> 
> But they didn’t.
> 
> “I would ask all parties to keep an open mind on this issue,” urged Jimmy Hazel, incoming board chairman from Oakton.
> 
> Marshall Davison, board member from Hague, challenged the various factions to come up with a solution.
> 
> “You guys know what is going on,” he said. “You know who the bad guys are. You know who the good guys are.”
> 
> Establishing regulations designed to place more control on dog hunters is a matter for the General Assembly, but the board and its staff must be active in the issue, said John Montgomery, board chairman from Sandston.
> 
> The agency already has started bringing together a cross section of people to embrace the issue, said Bob Duncan, chief of the DGIF wildlife division.
> 
> “The response has been very positive,” he said. “We want a very candid discussion of the dog hunting issue in Virginia and what the problems are,” he said.
> 
> Some states have taken a hardnosed approach and passed stiff regulations to control deer hunting with dogs. Certain timber companies that hold the key to thousands of acres of deer terrain have ban hunting with dogs in several states.
> 
> There is a chance that this can be avoided in Virginia, but only if sportsmen work hard to deal with circumstances that are giving deer hound hunting a bad image.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Roanoke Times Article
> 
> Respect Virginia's hound hunting heritage
> 
> John E. Boon Sr.
> 
> Boon is a native of Roanoke, a retired Navy officer and an avid hunter. He lives in Roanoke County.
> 
> 
> The commentary by Marlene Condon ("Time to re-evaluate hunting with hounds," Dec. 20) calls for re-evaluation of the Virginia tradition of hunting with hounds. The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries has funded a study to do just that; however, the purpose of the study is to examine and resolve issues surrounding hunting with hounds.
> 
> The department is clear in its commitment to preserve the tradition, not to eliminate it. It has teamed with Virginia Tech for this effort and has formed the Hound Hunting Stakeholder Committee to make recommendations. Hunting with dogs is not cruel to the animals as Condon states. It is not necessarily cruel to the game being hunted and doesn't negatively affect many other species.
> 
> The decline in woodcock and quail in Virginia is due to loss of natural habitat and not to hunting with dogs. Ground nests are much more likely to be raided and destroyed by raccoons, foxes and bobcats than they are by hunting hounds.
> 
> There is an effort in Virginia to restore quail habitat by planting native grasses and restoring fence lines and by building the population of birds.
> 
> The first hunting I did as a boy was quail hunting with my father and grandfather behind very well trained hounds. Those hounds flushed many birds, but never raided a nest. Hunting hounds do not run uncontrolled as Condon states. They are trained for a specific role and they follow that training.
> 
> Condon writes that abandoned hunting dogs are a common sight in Virginia. There are certainly many abandoned dogs running loose in some areas of our countryside, but these are most likely not hunting dogs. They are more likely to be unwanted pets.
> 
> Hunting dogs represent a substantial investment in initial purchase -- often several thousand dollars -- and in training and maintenance. They are not likely to be abandoned even when they are too old to hunt because their master has become too attached.
> A lost hunting dog will be searched for by his master until found. Many hunting dogs now are fitted with transmitters on their collars so that they can be more easily located, and hunters will remain in the woods or fields until they have retrieved their dogs. A hunter may go onto "prohibited" (private) land to retrieve his dogs, but he must do so without arms and only on foot unless he has obtained permission from the land owner to use a vehicle. A hunter who refuses to identify himself to the landowner is guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
> 
> Condon also tells us that chased animals are "absolutely terrified." A bear, ****, deer, fox or rabbit being chased by hunting dogs is better described as just being annoyed. If Condon could witness a deer being brought down by two or more coyotes or a bobcat or fox rush into a flock of wild turkeys, then she could see terrified animals.
> 
> She has presented a very distorted picture of hunting with dogs, which is her right to do, but if one wants to review the facts and then decide the issue they need to look well beyond her commentary. They can look to the regulations for hunting and trapping in Virginia, contact DGIF for a copy of the brochure on the hunting with hounds study and talk with hunters and game wardens before forming a final opinion.
> 
> Condon's commentary may play well with newcomers to the commonwealth and to those city dwellers recently moved to the country, but it certainly doesn't sit well with those throughout Virginia from the Tidewater area to the Blue Ridge and beyond who hold the traditional hunting heritage with or without dogs to be our right.
> We understand that we must also respect the rights of landowners and those of nature lovers with whom we share our federal and state lands. However, they also need to be respectful of the hunters' rights. We must come to a mutual understanding of the issues and that is what the hunting with hounds study is to do. The DGIF Web site explains that its aim is "to preserve the tradition of hunting, including hunting with hounds, in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike, and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens."


First, let me just say that Mr. Boon is a retired Naval Officer and everyone knows that officers cannot be believed, they are only looking out for themselves. :wink:

Second, in blue above. It sounds like Mr. Boon is talking about bird dogs, and I will concede that most bird dog owners do consider their hunting dogs as pets. They do take care of them and will go out of their way to look for them should they become lost. This is not the case with deer dogs. I personnally have seen deer dogs shot for not chasing deer, chasing the wrong game, or not being able to run any more. I have seen far to many malnurished dogs sitting in a box in the back of a truck while it's freezing cold out while the owner is in the 7-11 drinking warm coffee.

Third, in dark orange above. Tell that to Moonkryket about the dog he found on his property.

Fourth, in red above. Do not include all hunters who do not hunt with dogs. It should be more than obvious by the posts on this thread that their are plenty of hunters who do not like the use of dogs for deer hunting. I am sure there are plenty more of us out there that just do not know about this site or thread. Mr. Boon should come check out this thread. If you want to talk rights, even the ACLU will tell you that no one person's rights should be allowed to trample over someone else's right. Just ask any smoker.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Hokie, are you freely admitting to running dogs during bow season? Because this is what your response to BB is saying.
> 
> He said "I know some are real proud of dog chased deer during bow but some of us think it's a lamers tactic." and your response is above. Almost every county I can think of, it is illegal to run dogs during archery season. Do we need to be contacting VDGIF?


I must have mis-read it. I don't condone illegal hunting and don't do it myself. I usally skim over your posts because some many stones are thrown. missed that one and the answer is no I don't.


----------



## Moon

*The stone throwing*

is just beginning.


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> is just beginning.


Well I ain't leaving, and You and others go right ahead. I been slammed on every forum and I can take it and smile.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Well I ain't leaving, and You and others go right ahead. I been slammed on every forum and I can take it and smile.


I'm not slamming you (much :wink: ). Just disagreeing with you.


----------



## Moon

*Deepzak*

Thank you


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Well I ain't leaving, and You and others go right ahead. I been slammed on every forum and I can take it and smile.


I'm making the rounds as well but I seem to have help most everywhere I go. Surprisingly many see through the line of crap Derick lays out daily. Keep smiling, 2009 is getting closer every day. :thumbs_up


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I'm making the rounds as well but I seem to have help most everywhere I go. Surprisingly many see through the line of crap Derick lays out daily. Keep smiling, 2009 is getting closer every day. :thumbs_up


No more crap then you lay out daily. I too can't wait for 2009. You got a surprise coming my ol pal.:angel:


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> I'm not slamming you (much :wink: ). Just disagreeing with you.


Well I guess it is good I am thick skinned:wink: see yah on the flip side.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> No more crap then you lay out daily. I too can't wait for 2009. You got a surprise coming my ol pal.:angel:


I know. That's why VDGIF is doing this. For a BIG surprise. The end of the doggers is closer than you think.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I know. That's why VDGIF is doing this. For a BIG surprise. The end of the doggers is closer than you think.


Only in your dreams.:wink:


----------



## ButchA

Hokie,

I have a question... You're in Giles county and yet support deer dog hunting? That's all find and dandy - I'm not busting on you.. :wink:

Do you run dogs after bears out there? 'Cause you and I both know you can't run dogs after deer west of the blue ridge....


----------



## Hokieman

ButchA said:


> Hokie,
> 
> I have a question... You're in Giles county and yet support deer dog hunting? That's all find and dandy - I'm not busting on you.. :wink:
> 
> Do you run dogs after bears out there? 'Cause you and I both know you can't run dogs after deer west of the blue ridge....


I have never ran deer dogs. I have hunted at clubs who do down in halifax and pittsylvannia. I do hunt with dogs for **** and bear.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Looks like NC has a few "rogue" dog chasers too. Typical disregard for the law from everyone's favorite hunting sect - dog chasers. Add another black eye for hunters to the growing list.:thumbs_do

2009 will be here before you know it............:thumbs_up



> PASQUOTANK COUNTY
> 
> The Sheriff's Office is pursuing persons of interest after about 1,000 nails were dumped in several driveways last weekend.
> 
> Residents at about 12 homes awoke Saturday to find about 75 to 100 nails dumped in each of their driveways, said Brent McKecuen, an investigator with the Pasquotank County Sheriff's Office. The people targeted included a county commissioner, several law enforcement officers and a local attorney.
> 
> McKecuen said no arrests had been made, but investigators are pursuing information and suspect the nail drops could be linked to a recent county commissioners' meeting.
> 
> The topic of the meeting was the use of hunting dogs,
> 
> McKecuen said, and some of the people targeted had spoken against it.
> 
> Hunters use their dogs to chase deer during the hunting season, he said. Residents and others who spoke against the practice don't want the dogs and deer running across their property.
> 
> The debate included about a dozen speakers and took more than an hour, according to the clerk of the Board of Commissioners.
> 
> Investigators don't have anything to substantiate the hunting dog theory right now,
> 
> McKecuen said, and no suspects have been named.
> 
> Staff writer Lauren King contributed to this story.


----------



## 3sheets

deepzak said:


> Hokie, are you freely admitting to running dogs during bow season? Because this is what your response to BB is saying.
> 
> He said "I know some are real proud of dog chased deer during bow but some of us think it's a lamers tactic." and your response is above. Almost every county I can think of, it is illegal to run dogs during archery season. Do we need to be contacting VDGIF?


You have learned well grasshopper ... one must keep a close eye on Hokieman for he sure is a sly one, but he is definately prone to the occasional faux pas (that's the 2nd time I'v used that here lately and I'm really starting to like it)!! :wink: :rapture:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## 3sheets

BigBird,


I see I'm not the only one who couldn't sleep. Of course I took about a 3hr snooze yesterday afternoon ... after my 2.5+ hour (normally 1hr) drive home on our finely cleaned VA highways and byways!! 

After yesterday's drive, I want to pull a "Hokieman" and reorganize VDOT!!! lmao


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> You have learned well grasshopper ... one must keep a close eye on Hokieman for he sure is a sly one, but he is definately prone to the occasional faux pas (that's the 2nd time I'v used that here lately and I'm really starting to like it)!! :wink: :rapture:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


He's prone to more than that. I find it ironic that he lives in dog free country and has to drive miles to chase deer with them. At least his neighbors have it figured out. Guess that blows the "it's in the water" theory! LOL


----------



## deepzak

Ahhhhh.....have you guys been out to the GWNF during bear chase season? There isn't a National Forest gate that's safe if the bear chasers think their dogs or a good bear are back there. It's hard to pull a 300lb bear a mile or two so why pull it when you can jerk a gate down and drive back there.


----------



## Moon

*I wonder what it is*

that ANYTIME a chasing dog is thrown into the mix for "so-called hunting", what few laws there are to protect private property goes to hell in a handbag?


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> He's prone to more than that. I find it ironic that he lives in dog free country and has to drive miles to chase deer with them. At least his neighbors have it figured out. Guess that blows the "it's in the water" theory! LOL


I have family who lives in halifax and I was invited down one year many years ago and fell in love with that way of hunting.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I have family who lives in halifax and I was invited down one year many years ago and fell in love with that way of hunting.


I have relatives in Ohio. He **** hunts. I was up there for a visit so I thought what the heck, beats looking at the mother in-law so I went one night. They run, they tree, you shoot it or shine it and go home. Total waste of a good set of batteries for a flashlight.


----------



## deepzak

BigBirdVA said:


> I have relatives in Ohio. He **** hunts. I was up there for a visit so I thought what the heck, beats looking at the mother in-law so I went one night. They run, they tree, you shoot it or shine it and go home. Total waste of a good set of batteries for a flashlight.


 ... :laugh: ..... :chortle: ..... :set1_rolf2: ..............


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I have relatives in Ohio. He **** hunts. I was up there for a visit so I thought what the heck, beats looking at the mother in-law so I went one night. They run, they tree, you shoot it or shine it and go home. Total waste of a good set of batteries for a flashlight.


Thats because you hate anything that involves a dog. You must have been deprived as a child and not allowed a pet or your old lady liked her fido better than you in bed.:wink: but whatever the reason you sure a haten.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Thats because you hate anything that involves a dog. You must have been deprived as a child and not allowed a pet or your old lady liked her fido better than you in bed.:wink: but whatever the reason you sure a haten.


Contraire my friend. I hate anything that involves lamers. I used to have a lab, actually bred them a few times, and bird hunted and went everywhere with him. Other than trying to get every bird shot in a dove field he never bothered another's hunt. He was a bird sniffing machine. Great companion animal. I've had dogs all my life. I have one presently. Again you've missed the mark. I have no problem with dogs for deer IF and that's the key word, if they wouldn't run out of season, and could keep them off others lands and not have a right to retrieve without permission. I have no issues with real fox hunters, the all red or gray ones not the white tailed variety. **** hunters don't bother me a bit either. I'm not alone in my feelings. It's the deer dogger that causes 90% of the dog related grief in VA.

I have no problems with any dog if the owner keeps it on his propety and under control.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Contraire my friend. I hate anything that involves lamers. I used to have a lab, actually bred them a few times, and bird hunted and went everywhere with him. Other than trying to get every bird shot in a dove field he never bothered another's hunt. He was a bird sniffing machine. Great companion animal. I've had dogs all my life. I have one presently. Again you've missed the mark. I have no problem with dogs for deer IF and that's the key word, if they wouldn't run out of season, and could keep them off others lands and not have a right to retrieve without permission. I have no issues with real fox hunters, the all red or gray ones not the white tailed variety. **** hunters don't bother me a bit either. I'm not alone in my feelings. It's the deer dogger that causes 90% of the dog related grief in VA.
> 
> I have no problems with any dog if the owner keeps it on his propety and under control.


A deer trail is like a interstate highway, It doesn't end on your land it continues thru out the county. When a deer is jumped and ran it follows the fastest escape route it can and runs them deer trials from one property to another, I have seen actuall clubs control this by placing men along those trials to kill the deer and catch the dogs as they come out, some do make it past the people who try and catch them and they will then exercise their right to retrieve, all hunting at this point usually stops. It is some that appear to continue with the hunt and these are the ones we try to encourage landowners or lease's to call and fill a complaint out on. I agree there is a lack of enforcement in this case but I feel if this would have been targeted to get more enforcement officers hired it would have saved alot of agrevation on both fronts.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> A deer trail is like a interstate highway, It doesn't end on your land it continues thru out the county. When a deer is jumped and ran it follows the fastest escape route it can and runs them deer trials from one property to another, I have seen actuall clubs control this by placing men along those trials to kill the deer and catch the dogs as they come out, some do make it past the people who try and catch them and they will then exercise their right to retrieve, all hunting at this point usually stops. It is some that appear to continue with the hunt and these are the ones we try to encourage landowners or lease's to call and fill a complaint out on. I agree there is a lack of enforcement in this case but I feel if this would have been targeted to get more enforcement officers hired it would have saved alot of agrevation on both fronts.


In a perfect world.............. 
So all those expensive tracking collars and receivers are for show?  
Sorry but I didn't take the boat here yesterday. :wink:

Yes looks like we need an officer for each and every dog club on every hunt.  If they paid an additional license fee to compensate the state for the extra workload they caused it might be possible. One county might have 3-4 officers out working on any given day. No way they can babysit the dog chasers with that small number. Like having one trooper for all of I-64. The speeders ( doggers ) would run wild. They know and they do.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> In a perfect world..............
> So all those expensive tracking collars and receivers are for show?
> Sorry but I didn't take the boat here yesterday. :wink:
> 
> Yes looks like we need an officer for each and every dog club on every hunt.  If they paid an additional license fee to compensate the state for the extra workload they caused it might be possible. One county might have 3-4 officers out working on any given day. No way they can babysit the dog chasers with that small number. Like having one trooper for all of I-64. The speeders ( doggers ) would run wild. They know and they do.


You have a negative remark to everything and your not going to be happy until deer doggers as you call them are banned period. You have a major issue and it doesn't involve a civil resolution.:sad:


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## Moon

*Civil resolutions?*

There IS one Just STOP deer chasing....................period.

*"A deer trail is like a interstate highway, It doesn't end on your land it continues thru out the county. When a deer is jumped and ran it follows the fastest escape route it can and runs them deer trials from one property to another, I have seen actuall clubs control this by placing men along those trials to kill the deer and catch the dogs as they come out, some do make it past the people who try and catch them and they will then exercise their right to retrieve, all hunting at this point usually stops. It is some that appear to continue with the hunt and these are the ones we try to encourage landowners or lease's to call and fill a complaint out on. I agree there is a lack of enforcement in this case but I feel if this would have been targeted to get more enforcement officers hired it would have saved alot of agrevation on both fronts."*

Thanks for the deer chasing lesson You are wrong...........the "HUNTING" never started. It's all about chasing, heading off deer and shooting them What part of that is hunting?


----------



## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> .........Thanks for the deer chasing lesson You are wrong...........the "HUNTING" never started. It's all about chasing, heading off deer and shooting them What part of that is hunting?


It's done during hunting season so it must be hunting.


I have a really simple issue Hokieman. Actually 3 of them. 
1. Make a law with bite that stops running, chasing or training of deer during archery & spring gobbler. I'll even go so far as to say set up a season to chase or train. Give enough time for things to cool off for archery.
2. Keep dogs used for chasing deer off other's lands.
3. Stop the right for a stranger to go onto another's lands to retrieve lost dogs. You let 'em go on purpose it's your problem.

Not too much or too unreasonable. It's going to get to that point one way or the other in time.


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## Idaho_Elk_Huntr

BigBirdVA said:


> Contraire my friend. I hate anything that involves lamers. I used to have a lab, actually bred them a few times, and bird hunted and went everywhere with him. Other than trying to get every bird shot in a dove field he never bothered another's hunt. He was a bird sniffing machine. Great companion animal. I've had dogs all my life. I have one presently. Again you've missed the mark. I have no problem with dogs for deer IF and that's the key word, if they wouldn't run out of season, and could keep them off others lands and not have a right to retrieve without permission. I have no issues with real fox hunters, the all red or gray ones not the white tailed variety. **** hunters don't bother me a bit either. I'm not alone in my feelings. It's the deer dogger that causes 90% of the dog related grief in VA.
> 
> I have no problems with any dog if the owner keeps it on his propety and under control.


I have to agree with tehe man 100%


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> There IS one Just STOP deer chasing....................period.
> 
> *"A deer trail is like a interstate highway, It doesn't end on your land it continues thru out the county. When a deer is jumped and ran it follows the fastest escape route it can and runs them deer trials from one property to another, I have seen actuall clubs control this by placing men along those trials to kill the deer and catch the dogs as they come out, some do make it past the people who try and catch them and they will then exercise their right to retrieve, all hunting at this point usually stops. It is some that appear to continue with the hunt and these are the ones we try to encourage landowners or lease's to call and fill a complaint out on. I agree there is a lack of enforcement in this case but I feel if this would have been targeted to get more enforcement officers hired it would have saved alot of agrevation on both fronts."*
> 
> Thanks for the deer chasing lesson You are wrong...........the "HUNTING" never started. It's all about chasing, heading off deer and shooting them What part of that is hunting?


Everyone has their own method of hunting. Who are you to say that your method of hunting is far superior over the later. The only problem I see here is selfish hunters who don't want to share their outdoor time with another hunter who hunts differently then you do.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> It's done during hunting season so it must be hunting.
> 
> 
> I have a really simple issue Hokieman. Actually 3 of them.
> 1. Make a law with bite that stops running, chasing or training of deer during archery & spring gobbler. I'll even go so far as to say set up a season to chase or train. Give enough time for things to cool off for archery.
> 2. Keep dogs used for chasing deer off other's lands.
> 3. Stop the right for a stranger to go onto another's lands to retrieve lost dogs. You let 'em go on purpose it's your problem.
> 
> Not too much or too unreasonable. It's going to get to that point one way or the other in time.


I guess those are the seasons (archery & turkey) in which you hunt, I assume you don't hunt the rest of the seasons or are you counting on the bill to pass for private land. That is an issue yet to be resolved but ideals are being considered as to not condem the entire hunting dog community. I believe in the right to retrieve and feel that it is an effect tool for the hunting dog community if followed by the rules and regulations set by dgif.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I guess those are the seasons (archery & turkey) in which you hunt, I assume you don't hunt the rest of the seasons or are you counting on the bill to pass for private land. That is an issue yet to be resolved but ideals are being considered as to not condem the entire hunting dog community. I believe in the right to retrieve and feel that it is an effect tool for the hunting dog community if followed by the rules and regulations set by dgif.


I used to bow hunt during gun. The previous club allowed still hunting on the parts the doggers did not have set aside for the dog hunt. That club lost the lease. Present club doesn't allow still hunting till the hunts are over so it's no point going out for 45 minutes. I found a tract of public land that is in Chesapeake and the gun ends Nov 30 there and then goes to bow till the end. I go there and bowhunt, and chase off the knot heads that can't figure out the game laws and try to come in and gun hunt the place. 3 lost individuals this year. Turkey I live in the woods that season. Between seasons I scout and fish/canoe the river. As soon as dog chasing ends and it gets back to normal I go back up there.


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## Moon

*You've got to be kidding, right?*



*"Everyone has their own method of hunting. Who are you to say that your method of hunting is far superior over the later. The only problem I see here is selfish hunters who don't want to share their outdoor time with another hunter who hunts differently then you do."*

It's not about different levels of hunting. It's about deer chasing CALLED hunting when in fact it's chasing animals, plain and simple.......................I'm sorry you live on mars. Come on down to reality sometimes and maybe we carry on a sensible debate. I've done it all, over the years, even chased deer for 15 years and the more I did it the more I questioned my ethics and how we were trampling on others' privacy and those that were TRYING to really hunt but couldn't because of us tearing the woods to hell all the time on club land AND THEIR land. If you can't understand that,my friend, read the small blue print below.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Everyone has their own method of hunting. Who are you to say that your method of hunting is far superior over the later. The only problem I see here is selfish hunters who don't want to share their outdoor time with another hunter who hunts differently then you do.


Sharing is fine, as long as it goes both ways. Sharing when one is giving all the time and the other is taking all the time is called something else.


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## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> *"Everyone has their own method of hunting. Who are you to say that your method of hunting is far superior over the later. The only problem I see here is selfish hunters who don't want to share their outdoor time with another hunter who hunts differently then you do."*
> 
> It's not about different levels of hunting. It's about deer chasing CALLED hunting when in fact it's chasing animals, plain and simple.......................I'm sorry you live on mars. Come on down to reality sometimes and maybe we carry on a sensible debate. I've done it all, over the years, even chased deer for 15 years and the more I did it the more I questioned my ethics and how we were trampling on others' privacy and those that were TRYING to really hunt but couldn't because of us tearing the woods to hell all the time on club land AND THEIR land. If you can't understand that,my friend, read the small blue print below.


Who are you trying to kid, yourself. Once you and BigBird and the other anti-dog (banners) relize that the door swings both ways on this issue, it seems this could be a sensible debate. Your anti-dog and lamer stereo-typing by BigBird only show how one-sided the debate is on here. The fact of the matter is DOG HUNTING IN VIRGINIA WILL NOT BE BANNED, yes maybe some laws will be changed, but it will still go on legally. Yes, I live in one of those counties that have passed resolutions to show there support for the TRADITION OF DOG HUNTING FOR DEER, for economical reasons and trditional hunting thats been done for years and years...... 

Actually, I find your small bashing comments to be pretty dumb founded and not of the norm for the intelligent debator, please answer me why the game commission would want to have an all out ban on dog hunting? Maybe in your world (southeat Virginia) the land is shrinking and maybe that is where most of the anti-dog hunter whinners are. Take a drive to the country once and a while (Central and Southside of Virginia) and you will find plenty of room to run dogs and still hunt and bow hunt and crossbow (for BigBird) and turkey hunt and so on......so quit your whinning and come home from venus, grasshopper. :wink:

:thumbs_do to anti-dog hunter whinners and cry babies who only care about themselves.

:set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon:


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## MTNHunt

This is the only place in your neck of the woods that you will not see dogs chasing deer! Ha! Ha! My duck hunt yesterday in good old downtown PUNGO.

:icon_1_lol:


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## BigBirdVA

All things have a beginning and all things have an end. We're just at the beginning of the end for dog chasing MtnHtr. A little this year and some more another year. Once they see what it will take to stop the problems they'll act and the rest will be history. 

The passing of a show of support is for the fear of loss of $$$. Once people see there is life after dogs they'll move on. Dogs = $$$ is another BS story the dog chasers spout. Hunting = $$$. Dogs = problems is the correct equation.


Actually the biggest state WMA ner here bans dogs for deer. Now why do you think they do that? LOL They know it's a lamers method and when they get the chance they stop it on land they have control of. You'll see what VDGIF thinks soon enough.


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## Moon

*Mtn*

Typical "head in the red clay" deer chaser comments. Blah Blah Blah........ Go feed your dogs.


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## MTNHunt

MoonCry and BigBird,

Typical stereo-typing and name calling, just as in politics, the party that fears the most will resort to this. The fact of the matter is that the true sportsman in Virginia will reconize that Virginia has a mixed bag of hunting methods for deer, and will not side with the people who want to ban a style of hunting. And yes things do change, but in my life I believe that the people who can adapt the best to change will win out in the long run. Both of you and other anti-dog preachers who talk DOOM AND GLOOM will not win out on me. Blah, Blah, Blah, ......take it elsewhere:bartstush:, because you are a minority when it comes to banning deer dogs in Virginia. Most who are against it just want some newer laws for retrieval and ways to stop the lawbreakers. Not an all out ban for something that be done for years and years in certain parts of Virginia legally.

I learned a long time ago, if you don't have a reasonable solution for the problem at hand, then obviously your are part of the problem. The state could fence it the whole county of South Hampton (or what ever, pick one), ban dogs, give you two lifetime hunting rights, and you two would still whin, cry:sad: and moan:Cry: about it.


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## Moon

*You might do well to read all my posts on deer chasing*

before coming on here babling nonsense. I own land in Prince George county that I paid paid good money for. I know the practices of deer chasers because I was envolved with it and did it for 15 years. I also own dogs but you won't see them on YOUR property. I have respect for property owners and their privacy. Obviously you don't give a rat's azz about that. That tells me you are likely one of those land leasers that gives you the right (in your mind) to trample all over others' rights in the process and we'll see which side timber companies fall on going forward that lease land to deer chasers. You keep your dogs on your property and chase all the deer you want to forever and I'm all for it and I'm not for taking that right away from anyone ( you would have seen that from my posts if you had read them.....but I firmly believe that there will not ever be enough law officers to enforce effective laws to keep the intrusive by nature so called sport of deer chasing off others' private property so that leaves me with one logical conclusion. You figure it out......if you can.

Bottom line: If new effective laws cannot be inroduced to protect private property and enough law officers in place to enforce them, end it.


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## BigBirdVA

I think we all know who's part of the problem and who's part of the solution. Having a solution you or others don't agree with doesn't make me part of the problem. It's dogs and how those that use them abuse them. I'm sure VDGIF knows who's part of the problem. 

Nice try to shift blame to others. Typical dog chaser actions - it's always someone else or someone else.:elf_moon:


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I think we all know who's part of the problem and who's part of the solution. Having a solution you or others don't agree with doesn't make me part of the problem. It's dogs and how those that use them abuse them. I'm sure VDGIF knows who's part of the problem.
> 
> Nice try to shift blame to others. Typical dog chaser actions - it's always someone else or someone else.:elf_moon:


Your living in LALA land.:wink:


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Your living in LALA land.:wink:


Close -dog chaser land. Of course it's almost the same. Full of people that don't see reality like the rest of the world does.


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## Shootercannon

*Same problems in MS*

We have a 2800 acre lease that does not allow dog hunting. So how during the open rifle season are there no less than 5 or 10 dogs a day caught, brought out of the woods and tied to the gate to be picked up by the owners. Ever been at full draw on a 140 class 8 point only to have him look back, sniff the wind (I'm down wind) and take off leaving you no shot opportunity? Well, this happend to me this year, what was he running from? A walker dog!! 
I was 1000 yards from the nearest property line when this happend. 
We have packs of dogs come through our property all the time. 
I grew up hunting with dogs and still enjoy it at times, the comradre of friends and family sharing the hunt is something that you cant replace 20ft. up a tree by yourself all day. However, I don't want dogs on our lease while we are trying to still hunt. The constant barage of deer dogs and deer drives changes the deers natural movement patterns and makes the deer even harder to hunt. 

I would much rather see a change in the hunting seasons than the removal of the hunting dog heratige. If they would allow bowhunting, then muzzleloader, followed by rifle still hunting. Then give the dog hunters the end of the season to run dogs I think that everybody would be much happier.


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## BigBirdVA

Shootercannon said:


> We have a 2800 acre lease that does not allow dog hunting. So how during the open rifle season are there no less than 5 or 10 dogs a day caught, brought out of the woods and tied to the gate to be picked up by the owners. Ever been at full draw on a 140 class 8 point only to have him look back, sniff the wind (I'm down wind) and take off leaving you no shot opportunity? Well, this happend to me this year, what was he running from? A walker dog!!
> I was 1000 yards from the nearest property line when this happend.
> We have packs of dogs come through our property all the time.
> I grew up hunting with dogs and still enjoy it at times, the comradre of friends and family sharing the hunt is something that you cant replace 20ft. up a tree by yourself all day. However, I don't want dogs on our lease while we are trying to still hunt. The constant barage of deer dogs and deer drives changes the deers natural movement patterns and makes the deer even harder to hunt.
> 
> I would much rather see a change in the hunting seasons than the removal of the hunting dog heratige. If they would allow bowhunting, then muzzleloader, followed by rifle still hunting. Then give the dog hunters the end of the season to run dogs I think that everybody would be much happier.


DITTO !!!! Don't forget to add in stopping ALL chasing during another's seasons. It's going to take a big slap to the head to wake the dog chasers up and realize that they need to stop their problem causing ways.


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## ButchA

Shootercannon said:


> We have a 2800 acre lease that does not allow dog hunting. So how during the open rifle season are there no less than 5 or 10 dogs a day caught, brought out of the woods and tied to the gate to be picked up by the owners. Ever been at full draw on a 140 class 8 point only to have him look back, sniff the wind (I'm down wind) and take off leaving you no shot opportunity? Well, this happend to me this year, what was he running from? A walker dog!!
> I was 1000 yards from the nearest property line when this happend.
> We have packs of dogs come through our property all the time.
> I grew up hunting with dogs and still enjoy it at times, the comradre of friends and family sharing the hunt is something that you cant replace 20ft. up a tree by yourself all day. However, I don't want dogs on our lease while we are trying to still hunt. The constant barage of deer dogs and deer drives changes the deers natural movement patterns and makes the deer even harder to hunt.
> 
> I would much rather see a change in the hunting seasons than the removal of the hunting dog heratige. If they would allow bowhunting, then muzzleloader, followed by rifle still hunting. Then give the dog hunters the end of the season to run dogs I think that everybody would be much happier.


Wow... What a post. This says it all. Absolutely Perfect. Excellent!!! :hail:


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## Moon

*Yep, but it's too logical *

I like Florida's dog laws. They ARE logical and in effect!!!!! Maybe lightning will strike the -hit house and Va will see the light as well. We'll see


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## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> before coming on here babling nonsense. I own land in Prince George county that I paid paid good money for. I know the practices of deer chasers because I was envolved with it and did it for 15 years. I also own dogs but you won't see them on YOUR property. I have respect for property owners and their privacy. Obviously you don't give a rat's azz about that. That tells me you are likely one of those land leasers that gives you the right (in your mind) to trample all over others' rights in the process and we'll see which side timber companies fall on going forward that lease land to deer chasers. You keep your dogs on your property and chase all the deer you want to forever and I'm all for it and I'm not for taking that right away from anyone ( you would have seen that from my posts if you had read them.....but I firmly believe that there will not ever be enough law officers to enforce effective laws to keep the intrusive by nature so called sport of deer chasing off others' private property so that leaves me with one logical conclusion. You figure it out......if you can.
> Bottom line: If new effective laws cannot be inroduced to protect private property and enough law officers in place to enforce them, end it.



Babling Nonsense, . I could care less about your so called experience in running dogs and hunting skills, like I said, you and BigBird rant and brag about how long you have hunted and all of your experiences but they mean little to this whole debate. Actually, I believe some of it is made up to push your adgenda. This whole post started just to notify members about a club that has form to PROTECT certain types of hunters in VIRGINIA and nothing but crap has come out of a few of the anti-dog hunters post on here. Go look at the post on this subject and it is the same ones bad mouthing or trying to get a negative remarks from the original poster. I HAVE A BRIGHT IDEA FOR YOU ALL SINCE YOU CAN'T SEEM TO FIGURE IT (Monkey) OUT START YOUR OWN ANTI-DOG CLUB, see how many will join, I am sure that it will be far less than the Pro-Dog Rights Clubs. You already have your over priced land, maybe the members can help you pay for it. I have read just about all of the post on AT about this issue and since being a new member pretty much all of my post are on the subject, so put your glasses on old man and start reading because it is not going to be an easy battle in banninig dogs for deer like you believe. I hunt in a club with 5,000 acres of land and we never have any problem keeping our dogs on our piece. I have hunted with clubs in Luneburg (Lonestar Hunt Club) that have had as much as 10,000 acres. No problems at all just, plain fun enjoying the dogs and killing deer. It just goes back to my thoughts on how much of a whiny, cry baby all of the anti-dog hunters are, even if they aren't beening bothered. And YES, I have figured it out, you hunt your way and I will hunt my way. What part don't you understand? You and the rest of the anti-dog hunters are so quick to say that all dog runners break the law and disturb everyones hunt. Not so in my neck of the woods, we all get along pretty well, landowners, farmers, other clubs and residents. I hunt in all the deer seasons and spend plenty of money enjoying it all. I don't need to buy land, because I have access to a whole lot of it and it is private. So who cares that you own land, I wouldn't want my dogs running across it anyway because they would sink up to there bellies in s..t, because that is all you have to offer in experience.


----------



## Hokieman

Shootercannon said:


> We have a 2800 acre lease that does not allow dog hunting. So how during the open rifle season are there no less than 5 or 10 dogs a day caught, brought out of the woods and tied to the gate to be picked up by the owners. Ever been at full draw on a 140 class 8 point only to have him look back, sniff the wind (I'm down wind) and take off leaving you no shot opportunity? Well, this happend to me this year, what was he running from? A walker dog!!
> I was 1000 yards from the nearest property line when this happend.
> We have packs of dogs come through our property all the time.
> I grew up hunting with dogs and still enjoy it at times, the comradre of friends and family sharing the hunt is something that you cant replace 20ft. up a tree by yourself all day. However, I don't want dogs on our lease while we are trying to still hunt. The constant barage of deer dogs and deer drives changes the deers natural movement patterns and makes the deer even harder to hunt.
> 
> I would much rather see a change in the hunting seasons than the removal of the hunting dog heratige. If they would allow bowhunting, then muzzleloader, followed by rifle still hunting. Then give the dog hunters the end of the season to run dogs I think that everybody would be much happier.


That sounds alot like cherry picking your seasons and discrimination to the hunting dog community.


----------



## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> before coming on here babling nonsense. I own land in Prince George county that I paid paid good money for. I know the practices of deer chasers because I was envolved with it and did it for 15 years. I also own dogs but you won't see them on YOUR property. I have respect for property owners and their privacy. Obviously you don't give a rat's azz about that. That tells me you are likely one of those land leasers that gives you the right (in your mind) to trample all over others' rights in the process and we'll see which side timber companies fall on going forward that lease land to deer chasers. You keep your dogs on your property and chase all the deer you want to forever and I'm all for it and I'm not for taking that right away from anyone ( you would have seen that from my posts if you had read them.....but I firmly believe that there will not ever be enough law officers to enforce effective laws to keep the intrusive by nature so called sport of deer chasing off others' private property so that leaves me with one logical conclusion. You figure it out......if you can.
> 
> Bottom line: If new effective laws cannot be inroduced to protect private property and enough law officers in place to enforce them, end it.


I hunt legally with dogs and don't trespass. How quick you are to judge a person you don't even know. Typical anti-dog BS. END OF STORY.


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## MTNHunt

Hokieman said:


> That sounds alot like cherry picking your seasons and discrimination to the hunting dog community.


That is it. Next the anti-dog hunters will want earn a buck, antler restrictions, and so on in Virginia. Just so they can brag about how big of a deer they killed on there land, probally with the help of a big PILE OF CORN and a tree stand over it. Who kidding who with this whole crap, it's the anti-dog hunters push. Whan, Whan, Whan It is more to there adgenda than meets the eye.


----------



## MTNHunt

Hokieman said:


> That sounds alot like cherry picking your seasons and discrimination to the hunting dog community.


That is it. Next the anti-dog hunters will want earn a buck, antler restrictions, and so on in Virginia. Just so they can brag about how big of a deer they killed on there land, probally with the help of a big PILE OF CORN and a tree stand over it. Who kidding who with this whole crap, it's the anti-dog hunters push. Whan, Whan, Whan It is more to there adgenda than meets the eye.


----------



## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> Typical "head in the red clay" deer chaser comments. Blah Blah Blah........ Go feed your dogs.


Go FEED "your" deer so you can keep them on your property, you bought them when you bought the property right....I know your game, all about trophy management, not about the health of the herd.


----------



## deepzak

MTNHunt said:


> MoonCry and BigBird,
> 
> Typical stereo-typing and name calling, just as in politics, the party that fears the most will resort to this. The fact of the matter is that the true sportsman in Virginia will reconize that Virginia has a mixed bag of hunting methods for deer, and will not side with the people who want to ban a style of hunting. And yes things do change, but in my life I believe that the people who can adapt the best to change will win out in the long run. Both of you and other anti-dog preachers who talk DOOM AND GLOOM will not win out on me. Blah, Blah, Blah, ......take it elsewhere:bartstush:, because you are a minority when it comes to banning deer dogs in Virginia. Most who are against it just want some newer laws for retrieval and ways to stop the lawbreakers. Not an all out ban for something that be done for years and years in certain parts of Virginia legally.
> 
> I learned a long time ago, if you don't have a reasonable solution for the problem at hand, then obviously your are part of the problem. The state could fence it the whole county of South Hampton (or what ever, pick one), ban dogs, give you two lifetime hunting rights, and you two would still whin, cry:sad: and moan:Cry: about it.





MTNHunt said:


> Who are you trying to kid, yourself. Once you and BigBird and the other anti-dog (banners) relize that the door swings both ways on this issue, it seems this could be a sensible debate. Your anti-dog and lamer stereo-typing by BigBird only show how one-sided the debate is on here. The fact of the matter is DOG HUNTING IN VIRGINIA WILL NOT BE BANNED, yes maybe some laws will be changed, but it will still go on legally. Yes, I live in one of those counties that have passed resolutions to show there support for the TRADITION OF DOG HUNTING FOR DEER, for economical reasons and trditional hunting thats been done for years and years......
> 
> Actually, I find your small bashing comments to be pretty dumb founded and not of the norm for the intelligent debator, please answer me why the game commission would want to have an all out ban on dog hunting? Maybe in your world (southeat Virginia) the land is shrinking and maybe that is where most of the anti-dog hunter whinners are. Take a drive to the country once and a while (Central and Southside of Virginia) and you will find plenty of room to run dogs and still hunt and bow hunt and crossbow (for BigBird) and turkey hunt and so on......so quit your whinning and come home from venus, grasshopper. :wink:
> 
> :thumbs_do to anti-dog hunter whinners and cry babies who only care about themselves.
> :set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon::elf_moon:





MTNHunt said:


> Babling Nonsense, . I could care less about your so called experience in running dogs and hunting skills, like I said, you and BigBird rant and brag about how long you have hunted and all of your experiences but they mean little to this whole debate. Actually, I believe some of it is made up to push your adgenda. This whole post started just to notify members about a club that has form to PROTECT certain types of hunters in VIRGINIA and nothing but crap has come out of a few of the anti-dog hunters post on here. Go look at the post on this subject and it is the same ones bad mouthing or trying to get a negative remarks from the original poster. I HAVE A BRIGHT IDEA FOR YOU ALL SINCE YOU CAN'T SEEM TO FIGURE IT (Monkey) OUT START YOUR OWN ANTI-DOG CLUB, see how many will join, I am sure that it will be far less than the Pro-Dog Rights Clubs. You already have your over priced land, maybe the members can help you pay for it. I have read just about all of the post on AT about this issue and since being a new member pretty much all of my post are on the subject, so put your glasses on old man and start reading because it is not going to be an easy battle in banninig dogs for deer like you believe. I hunt in a club with 5,000 acres of land and we never have any problem keeping our dogs on our piece. I have hunted with clubs in Luneburg (Lonestar Hunt Club) that have had as much as 10,000 acres. No problems at all just, plain fun enjoying the dogs and killing deer. It just goes back to my thoughts on how much of a whiny, cry baby all of the anti-dog hunters are, even if they aren't beening bothered. And YES, I have figured it out, you hunt your way and I will hunt my way. What part don't you understand? You and the rest of the anti-dog hunters are so quick to say that all dog runners break the law and disturb everyones hunt. Not so in my neck of the woods, we all get along pretty well, landowners, farmers, other clubs and residents. I hunt in all the deer seasons and spend plenty of money enjoying it all. I don't need to buy land, because I have access to a whole lot of it and it is private. So who cares that you own land, I wouldn't want my dogs running across it anyway because they would sink up to there bellies in s..t, because that is all you have to offer in experience.


MTN, your right. The side that fears the most will resort to name calling. At least while we were debating with Hokie, insults did not reign supreme. I will actually listen to what he has to say and respect his point of view (eventhough it differs from my own). You on the other hand, do not even deserve this response.

This thread was started to gather support for an organization whose goal is to keep the "traditional way of dog hunting" alive and unchanged. Well, it has been stated that the "traditional way" is not working. We, the anti-dog hunters, came to this thread to spread the word that there is opposition (freedom of speach) to the "traditional way of dog hunting". Sorry if you have a problem with that, but it is YOUR problem. If you truely read all the post's, you would see that most have said all they really want is a change in the way dog hunting is conducted. So get a grip. Laws are made or changed based on the actions of a few. If you don't believe me, check out www.dumblaws.com Here are a few gems from Virginia:

Citizens must honk their horn while passing other cars.
Children are not to go trick-or-treating on Halloween.
It is illegal to tickle women.

These laws had to have been passed because someone (one person or may be two) had to have done something stupid to cause it. That's why dog running law will change.


----------



## Moon

*He's a typical example of why deer dog so called*

hunting is in the fix it's in. No concerns for anything or anybody but his selfish practices. All we need is to have more of his likes standing up and calling landowners Monkeys and dumb  I'm sure folks from the VA DGIF read this board. Welcome aboard Mr. MTN man. When dogs are illegal for deer chasing, go look into a mirror and you'll see a prime example of why it ended that way. Maybe there are enough folks out there that chase deer legally and that have respect for others' property to find a way to rid themselves of folks like you. I wish them luck.


----------



## MTNHunt

deepzak said:


> MTN, your right. The side that fears the most will resort to name calling. At least while we were debating with Hokie, insults did not reign supreme. I will actually listen to what he has to say and respect his point of view (eventhough it differs from my own). You on the other hand, do not even deserve this response.
> 
> This thread was started to gather support for an organization whose goal is to keep the "traditional way of dog hunting" alive and unchanged. Well, it has been stated that the "traditional way" is not working. We, the anti-dog hunters, came to this thread to spread the word that there is opposition (freedom of speach) to the "traditional way of dog hunting". Sorry if you have a problem with that, but it is YOUR problem. If you truely read all the post's, you would see that most have said all they really want is a change in the way dog hunting is conducted. So get a grip. Laws are made or changed based on the actions of a few. If you don't believe me, check out www.dumblaws.com Here are a few gems from Virginia:Citizens must honk their horn while passing other cars.
> Children are not to go trick-or-treating on Halloween.
> It is illegal to tickle women.
> 
> These laws had to have been passed because someone (one person or may be two) had to have done something stupid to cause it. That's why dog running law will change.


To you also, I could care less if you give me a response. I am a sick of looking at this thread about stupid stories of dogs being picked up (assuming they are hounds) and all the so-called problems that are created by dog hunters. I am not dening that they are some, that would be stupid. Just as in your group they are bad apples who shoot dogs and trap them and sneak on land leased by dog clubs to bow hunt. O.K. let me see, Bigbird can get all personable about this and say he is at the last straw by trapping dogs and every anti-dog hunter can understand his feeling but not the feeling of one of a dedicated deer hunter with dogs. Talk about being prejudice? I am not alone, I know it because most people that hunt around my area know where the problem began, in your back yard. The anti-dog hunters in southeastern Virginia have pulled there panties up and want to alleged that all dog chasers are bad and the laws are all wrong. Period. What stage of denial are you in? If you don't like my post hit the ignore button. I walk a straight line of doing all my hunting legal and I am sick of the anti-slogans about how deer doggers are lamers and it's not a sport. What do you espect me to do, not respond, I don't think so. Your lame spin about laws is just that, a nothing BS story for the anti-dog adgenda. Period. 

My advise to you all is to go to the meeting that are going on in the counties where I am from and yours, you will see the support from the dog hunters is not as bad as you make it seem. My problem only, not in your wildest AT dreams. 

My image is clean and I am going to fight for my deer dogging rights period! So keep on spinning the story to get your type of hunting, because it will not work in my neck of the woods.


----------



## Moon

*Trophy management you say?*

 With 13 deer chasing clubs around me, with most of them shooting anything with hair on it. Yeah right! 

Rant on ole boy. Dig your hole.


----------



## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> hunting is in the fix it's in. No concerns for anything or anybody but his selfish practices. All we need is to have more of his likes standing up and calling landowners Monkeys and dumb  I'm sure folks from the VA DGIF read this board. Welcome aboard Mr. MTN man. When dogs are illegal for deer chasing, go look into a mirror and you'll see a prime example of why it ended that way. Maybe there are enough folks out there that chase deer legally and that have respect for others' property to find a way to rid themselves of folks like you. I wish them luck.


Keep on saying I am typical, I am glad the VDIGF read the board, I am doing nothing illegal in my hunting and yet you want to make it seem that way. I pay good money to hunt large pieces of land to hunt with dogs and not bother anyone but you want to stop it. Go figure. I hunt with law enforcement officers and people that are well represented in the community and you still want call me a law breaker? I am fighting for my right to hunt in Virginia with dogs. I am glad this debate won't be the one sided way you want it to be.

In case you can't read I highlighted the part that you accuse me of doing illegal?


----------



## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> With 13 deer chasing clubs around me, with most of them shooting anything with hair on it. Yeah right!
> 
> Rant on ole boy. Dig your hole.


I dug my hole when this battle began, so what is the problem? Nothing, I am standing up for something that I enjoy and believe in. You on the other hand have your own agenda by trying to scare me. Oh by the way read the VDGIF responses on there web page by all parties, these are tame compared to that. Do your homework, mr. VP


----------



## deepzak

MTNHunt said:


> [/COLOR]
> Keep on saying I am typical, I am glad the VDIGF read the board, I am doing nothing illegal in my hunting and yet you want to make it seem that way. I pay good money to hunt large pieces of land to hunt with dogs and not bother anyone but you want to stop it. Go figure. I hunt with law enforcement officers and people that are well represented in the community and you still want call me a law breaker? I am fighting for my right to hunt in Virginia with dogs. I am glad this debate won't be the one sided way you want it to be.
> 
> In case you can't read I highlighted the part that you accuse me of doing illegal?


You made my point in your other post, as to why laws change. It may well be that the law breakers are only in SE Virginia, however, their actions speak for your whole community. Since VDHA cannot get a reign on their people, it will come down to the state, unfortunately.

I am truely glad you are not one of the law breakers. I hope it will continue for all times. Unfortunately, the ones that do break the laws from your hunting community give all dog hunters a black eye, so, there in lies the reason why laws can and will change. By the way, just because someone is a police officer does not mean that they do not break the law. Did you not see the post in the Bowhunting section a few days ago about the State Trooper who was caught trying to get a deer mounted that was shot by his wife on another's tag? That is illegal. I see cops turn on their "blue lights" to get through stop lights all the time, I even got passed on I-264 by a VB cop while I was doing 60 (yes, I know, turn myself in right?). Not all cops obey all laws.


----------



## Moon

*My profile includes my name*

and it's not Mr. Anti-dog hunter. Where's yours?

If you look like a duck and quack like a duck, logically one will think you ARE a duck. 

I have no problems with folks that abide by the law and don't tread on others' property. If you don't do that, that's great and I'll defend your right to continue doing what you do. Instead of you calling folks you don't agree with Monkeys and dumb I suggest you try to help rid SE Va of the inconsiderate scum that tramples over property owners' rights..................all in the name of deer dog practices and that will enventually cost you your rights. I think your anger should be aimed at them.................your real enemy. Time is not on your side. You can change that.


----------



## MTNHunt

deepzak said:


> You made my point in your other post, as to why laws change. It may well be that the law breakers are only in SE Virginia, however, their actions speak for your whole community. Since VDHA cannot get a reign on their people, it will come down to the state, unfortunately.
> 
> I am truely glad you are not one of the law breakers. I hope it will continue for all times. Unfortunately, the ones that do break the laws from your hunting community give all dog hunters a black eye, so, there in lies the reason why laws can and will change. By the way, just because someone is a police officer does not mean that they do not break the law. Did you not see the post in the Bowhunting section a few days ago about the State Trooper who was caught trying to get a deer mounted that was shot by his wife on another's tag? That is illegal. I see cops turn on their "blue lights" to get through stop lights all the time, I even got passed on I-264 by a VB cop while I was doing 60 (yes, I know, turn myself in right?). Not all cops obey all laws.


I saw it, and I hope that he get in trouble. LE are not above the law and should play by all the rules we have to. Unfortunately, Bad apples have ruined alot of things for law abiding hunters. I agree with that.


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## MTNHunt

Moonkryket said:


> and it's not Mr. Anti-dog hunter. Where's yours?
> 
> If you look like a duck and quack like a duck, logically one will think you ARE a duck.
> 
> I have no problems with folks that abide by the law and don't tread on others' property. If you don't do that, that's great and I'll defend your right to continue doing what you do. Instead of you calling folks you don't agree with Monkeys and dumb I suggest you try to help rid SE Va of the inconsiderate scum that tramples over property owners' rights..................all in the name of deer dog practices and that will enventually cost you your rights. I think your anger should be aimed at them.................your real enemy. Time is not on your side. You can change that.


I can assure you I am no duck, however I am passinate about my right to hunt with dogs legally and kill some deer in Virginia. Just like I love to bow hunt for deer. Also, after joining this forum, I could not help but notice the pure hatred for the dog hunter, and I am just standing up for the sport. They are two sides to every story, and hopefully the study will be justified and not a one way decision. 

Matt-Beaverdam, Virginia


----------



## deepzak

MTNHunt said:


> I can assure you I am no duck, however I am passinate about my right to hunt with dogs legally and kill some deer in Virginia. Just like I love to bow hunt for deer. Also, after joining this forum, I could not help but notice the pure hatred for the dog hunter, and I am just standing up for the sport. They are two sides to every story, and hopefully the study will be justified and not a one way decision.
> 
> Matt-Beaverdam, Virginia


No one wants to stop you from doing anything that is legal as long as its legally done. What BB, Moonkryket, and myself as well as most non-dog hunters want is to not have our land, hunts, or privacy invade or trampled on. I understand, you already stated that you don't do this, however, there are many that do. These are the ones that you and your law abiding club need to direct your aggravations toward, not other hunters who only wish to have their hunting desires respected. We will however speak out because of the law breakers, just like you can speak out because of the law abiders.

BTW: QDM emphasizes deer herd management for total herd health. Not to big of a herd, not to small. Not that I promote QDM, because it was tried in a very poor manner where I hunt and all that was left was poor quality bucks and very young does.


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## deepzak

*Oh yeah,*

Forgot to say that the VDGIF website states that it is not out to end hound hunting in VA, it is out to find the cause of problems and get rid of those problems or at least make the laws enforceable.


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## Shootercannon

*HookieMan you completely missed the point*

First, let me fill you in on our current seasons. 
Archery starts 1 oct, 1st dog split week before thanksgiving until around 1st of Dec, Primative next two weeks, Rifle Still hunting only 1 week, 2nd split dog around Christmas eve until third Wednsday in Jan, primative weapon till 31 Jan. 

Now in all of your great wisdom and obvious college education on wildlife management explain to me how the 1st dog split (2 weeks of dogs in the woods and people driving everycutover around) doesn't have an effect on natural deer movement. 

Remember, I grew up owning and running deer dogs. You have blinded yourself because "We've always done it like this" (or what ever Cliche you choose). The problem is that you and many other dog hunters cant accept the changes that are inevetable. 

I read in one of these posts, a gentleman saying that they had a lease that was 5000 acers and that they had no problem keeping their dogs on their property, I applaud him and his lease for getting enough property to do what they enjoy and not encroach on others rights. Tell that to the guys who put their dogs out on one side of your property and stand off the line on the other side of your property. Ive seen it happen. That "Dogs cant read posted signs" don't hold water with me when I see the truck back up to the property line and drop the tailgate. Good walkers don't need to be driven, they know how to find and jump thier own deer. 
If you put thousands into foodplots and other improvements into your land, let younger deer walk so that they can get a little age and then have a guy back up to your property line drop out the dogs and some guy who has done nothing to make your place better kill that deer ahead of dogs that should have never been on the property anyway........ Well, that is how people get bad reputations and how certain types of hunting get bad names. 

I know it happens, Ive seen it happen, Hell I used to do it. But I realized that I was part of the problem. I may not be part of the solution, but you aren't either. All you are is another old dog hunter who refuses accept the changes that are coming. Compromise is whats best for dog hunting, I doubt that you will ever be able to, and being uncomprimsing, you will eventually loose your right to run deer with dogs. As unfortunate as that may be it is the future for all who refuse to change.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Forgot to say that the VDGIF website states that it is not out to end hound hunting in VA, it is out to find the cause of problems and get rid of those problems or at least make the laws enforceable.



The problem is and remains that DGIF board members failed landowners and sportsman by allowing this to escalate to the point it is. If better management had been done and wardens had been hired none of this would be were it is today. I blame DGIF board members and I personally have lost my trust for them to do their job effectively.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> The problem is and remains that DGIF board members failed landowners and sportsman by allowing this to escalate to the point it is. If better management had been done and wardens had been hired none of this would be were it is today. I blame DGIF board members and I personally have lost my trust for them to do their job effectively.


I don't neccessarily blame DGIF, I think it would be more valid to blame the state government. Virginia has one of the highest gas taxes (not to mention city taxes on gas) that is supposed to go back into the highways, as well as personal property taxes on vehicles that is supposed to go back to the highways. Yet year after year Virginia highways are some of the worst around. I know, I have driven all over this country. VA. has this Lottery thing that is supposed to pay for schools and teachers, yet that money never seems to make it to it's assigned destiny. Why? The state misappropriates it for other things.

I am in the Navy and remember when money at work was never really a concern. We could order everything we needed to do our job, and some things it was nice to have. Now, we barely have money to cover the absolute neccessities, let alone enough to get the job done completely, the right way. Short cuts are a way of life. I imagine it is the same way with DGIF. Money is short all around. I don't think they have the revenue to hire more wardens so I have to ask "Where is the money from Hunters' licenses going?" The answer to myself would have to be "back to the state coffers for misappropriation." DGIF is only a very small part of the government. It's an enforcement agency primarily, so it does not have decision making power like it should.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> I don't neccessarily blame DGIF, I think it would be more valid to blame the state government. Virginia has one of the highest gas taxes (not to mention city taxes on gas) that is supposed to go back into the highways, as well as personal property taxes on vehicles that is supposed to go back to the highways. Yet year after year Virginia highways are some of the worst around. I know, I have driven all over this country. VA. has this Lottery thing that is supposed to pay for schools and teachers, yet that money never seems to make it to it's assigned destiny. Why? The state misappropriates it for other things.
> 
> I am in the Navy and remember when money at work was never really a concern. We could order everything we needed to do our job, and some things it was nice to have. Now, we barely have money to cover the absolute neccessities, let alone enough to get the job done completely, the right way. Short cuts are a way of life. I imagine it is the same way with DGIF. Money is short all around. I don't think they have the revenue to hire more wardens so I have to ask "Where is the money from Hunters' licenses going?" The answer to myself would have to be "back to the state coffers for misappropriation." DGIF is only a very small part of the government. It's an enforcement agency primarily, so it does not have decision making power like it should.


DGIF has been spending the money on wildlife watcher areas like birding trails and such instead of spending it on wildlife management and programs to get more youths involved in the outdoors.


----------



## ButchA

Hokieman said:


> DGIF has been spending the money on wildlife watcher areas like birding trails and such instead of spending it on wildlife management and programs to get more youths involved in the outdoors.


How can you get youths involved when you don't have Sunday hunting (which by the way, the VHDA opposes....) :mmph:

Kids have school and Saturday activities (scouts, soccer practice, etc...) and normally can't go into the woods on Saturdays. Sundays would be better for youths. But noooooooo, the VHDA wants to keep Virginia stuck back in the 1800's. :rant:

I want to bowhunt private land on a Sunday, which in my opinion should be legal. But nooooooo, the VHDA has decided for me that it is wrong. :rant:

I'm sorry, Hokieman, you have lost all respect.... You and that guy "cornfedantirefuge" _(a poster on another site)_ deserve each other.


----------



## Hokieman

ButchA said:


> How can you get youths involved when you don't have Sunday hunting (which by the way, the VHDA opposes....) :mmph:
> 
> Kids have school and Saturday activities (scouts, soccer practice, etc...) and normally can't go into the woods on Saturdays. Sundays would be better for youths. But noooooooo, the VHDA wants to keep Virginia stuck back in the 1800's. :rant:
> 
> I want to bowhunt private land on a Sunday, which in my opinion should be legal. But nooooooo, the VHDA has decided for me that it is wrong. :rant:
> 
> I'm sorry, Hokieman, you have lost all respect.... You and that guy "cornfedantirefuge" _(a poster on another site)_ deserve each other.


I doubt you or your friends had any respect for me or the other guy as you call him. Butch I didn't decide for you I decided for myself.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> The problem is and remains that DGIF board members failed landowners and sportsman by allowing this to escalate to the point it is. If better management had been done and wardens had been hired none of this would be were it is today. I blame DGIF board members and I personally have lost my trust for them to do their job effectively.


The best warden in the world can't stop a person running deer hounds illegally on opener of bow season. That's not the wardens fault, it's the lawmakers fault for listening to the needs of the dog chasers back in the 50's or whenever the asinine dog hunting laws came into existence. They need laws with penalties, not loopholes. Whoever heard of a law that lets the criminal declare his innocence regardless of the facts and then walk away only to do it again tomorrow? That's what the out of season deer dogger does every day. He only needs to state "they are running foxes" and he's off the hook. Imagine this, on a Sunday I could say, "I'm not hunting" while sitting 30ft in a tree with weapon in hand and the warden wouldn't even bother to write a ticket, if he even showed up at all. To most if it's chasing a deer it's a deer hound, if it's retrieving a duck it's a bird dog. But to the deer doggers if it's chasing a deer it's a fox hound. Lets don't forget the denials. Lots of perfect clubs and members out there. Just no one hunts near them except 2-3 guys on the forums that post on 50 different boards, just to let everyone know how wrong everyone else is. This has got to to the point it's at because of one group, and they don't make laws or wear a badge, they break 'em.


----------



## Moon

*I had to re- post Shootercannon's words*

of wisdom. Deer chasers, please read this and take it not as a warning but as a prediction if the current situation with deer/fox dogs does not change from within the dog owner ranks:

*First, let me fill you in on our current seasons (MS). 
Archery starts 1 oct, 1st dog split week before thanksgiving until around 1st of Dec, Primative next two weeks, Rifle Still hunting only 1 week, 2nd split dog around Christmas eve until third Wednsday in Jan, primative weapon till 31 Jan. 

Now in all of your great wisdom and obvious college education on wildlife management explain to me how the 1st dog split (2 weeks of dogs in the woods and people driving everycutover around) doesn't have an effect on natural deer movement. 

Remember, I grew up owning and running deer dogs. You have blinded yourself because "We've always done it like this" (or what ever Cliche you choose). The problem is that you and many other dog hunters cant accept the changes that are inevetable. 

I read in one of these posts, a gentleman saying that they had a lease that was 5000 acers and that they had no problem keeping their dogs on their property, I applaud him and his lease for getting enough property to do what they enjoy and not encroach on others rights. Tell that to the guys who put their dogs out on one side of your property and stand off the line on the other side of your property. Ive seen it happen. That "Dogs cant read posted signs" don't hold water with me when I see the truck back up to the property line and drop the tailgate. Good walkers don't need to be driven, they know how to find and jump thier own deer. 
If you put thousands into foodplots and other improvements into your land, let younger deer walk so that they can get a little age and then have a guy back up to your property line drop out the dogs and some guy who has done nothing to make your place better kill that deer ahead of dogs that should have never been on the property anyway........ Well, that is how people get bad reputations and how certain types of hunting get bad names. 

I know it happens, Ive seen it happen, Hell I used to do it. But I realized that I was part of the problem. I may not be part of the solution, but you aren't either. All you are is another old dog hunter who refuses accept the changes that are coming. Compromise is whats best for dog hunting, I doubt that you will ever be able to, and being uncomprimsing *

Thanks Shooter for your input. Although you are not in Virginia, it's amazing how you exactly described what's been happening around my property for the last 20 years.


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## vabass

The Va Hunting Dog Alliance also wants to trample on your hunting rights. The below is cut and pasted from their website as it relates to the bill that is up to allow Sunday archery hunting on private land. Make sure you know what they stand for before joining their organization.

*"VHDA Strongly Opposes any form of Sunday hunting. This bill is merely an attempt to put the camel's nose under the tent."*


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## Moon

*yep!*

I think most of us can read through the deer chasing alliance's motives


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## Hokieman

vabass said:


> The Va Hunting Dog Alliance also wants to trample on your hunting rights. The below is cut and pasted from their website as it relates to the bill that is up to allow Sunday archery hunting on private land. Make sure you know what they stand for before joining their organization.
> 
> *"VHDA Strongly Opposes any form of Sunday hunting. This bill is merely an attempt to put the camel's nose under the tent."*


Kinda calling the kettle black when others are out trampling on hunting dog owners rights. :tongue:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> The best warden in the world can't stop a person running deer hounds illegally on opener of bow season. That's not the wardens fault, it's the lawmakers fault for listening to the needs of the dog chasers back in the 50's or whenever the asinine dog hunting laws came into existence. They need laws with penalties, not loopholes. Whoever heard of a law that lets the criminal declare his innocence regardless of the facts and then walk away only to do it again tomorrow? That's what the out of season deer dogger does every day. He only needs to state "they are running foxes" and he's off the hook. Imagine this, on a Sunday I could say, "I'm not hunting" while sitting 30ft in a tree with weapon in hand and the warden wouldn't even bother to write a ticket, if he even showed up at all. To most if it's chasing a deer it's a deer hound, if it's retrieving a duck it's a bird dog. But to the deer doggers if it's chasing a deer it's a fox hound. Lets don't forget the denials. Lots of perfect clubs and members out there. Just no one hunts near them except 2-3 guys on the forums that post on 50 different boards, just to let everyone know how wrong everyone else is. This has got to to the point it's at because of one group, and they don't make laws or wear a badge, they break 'em.


How many forums are you on spreading your anti dog propoganda. I bet I have ran across you on more than a few. All this links back to one forum and one agenda and I bet you can name both.


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## jfish

*Rights!*

Hokieman ;_Kinda calling the kettle black when others are out trampling on hunting dog owners rights._ 

How the heck is someone trampling on a Deer Hound Hunters Rights when all they are asking for is.

1: Keep Your Hounds Off My Land!
2: Don't Run Your DEER HOUNDS Outside of DEER Season!

Thats the problem, too many Deer Hound Hunters think it is their right to cross someone else's land. Under today's laws in some cases they can enter upon the land of someone else. There in lies the issue.. Oh! I love the "ol' my hound can't read signs excuse"... That is why the law must change... 
How about this concept? If your Hound is Trespassing You are Trespassing. 

Hound Hunter Rights? 
How about Land Owner Rights, Individual Hunter Rights?


----------



## deepzak

vabass said:


> The Va Hunting Dog Alliance also wants to trample on your hunting rights. The below is cut and pasted from their website as it relates to the bill that is up to allow Sunday archery hunting on private land. Make sure you know what they stand for before joining their organization.
> 
> *"VHDA Strongly Opposes any form of Sunday hunting. This bill is merely an attempt to put the camel's nose under the tent."*





Moonkryket said:


> I think most of us can read through the deer chasing alliance's motives


Sorry, maybe I am slow, but what exactly does "putting the camel's nose unter the tent" mean? Is it the same as "a foot in the door?"

I went to the Ag Committee meeting for SB 524 (amend Virginia law to allow hunting on Sunday- Sen. Wagner). VDHA was there and opposed the bill (imagine that). Their prime opposition was to give the animals a day of rest. Like the animals dont get something like 266 days of rest a year. I think what they really meant was to give the Dogs a day of rest and give the owners a chance to catch up on the B-12 shots to keep them running.:wink:

HSUS was there too; They also opposed the bill. Anybody else see a common thread? :wink:


----------



## deepzak

jfish said:


> Hokieman ;_Kinda calling the kettle black when others are out trampling on hunting dog owners rights._
> 
> How the heck is someone trampling on a Deer Hound Hunters Rights when all they are asking for is.
> 
> 1: Keep Your Hounds Off My Land!
> 2: Don't Run Your DEER HOUNDS Outside of DEER Season!
> 
> Thats the problem, too many Deer Hound Hunters think it is their right to cross someone else's land. Under today's laws in some cases they can enter upon the land of someone else. There in lies the issue.. Oh! I love the "ol' my hound can't read signs excuse"... That is why the law must change...
> How about this concept? If your Hound is Trespassing You are Trespassing.
> 
> Hound Hunter Rights?
> How about Land Owner Rights, Individual Hunter Rights?



+1 !!!!!!


----------



## Hokieman

jfish said:


> Hokieman ;_Kinda calling the kettle black when others are out trampling on hunting dog owners rights._
> 
> How the heck is someone trampling on a Deer Hound Hunters Rights when all they are asking for is.
> 
> 1: Keep Your Hounds Off My Land!
> 2: Don't Run Your DEER HOUNDS Outside of DEER Season!
> 
> Thats the problem, too many Deer Hound Hunters think it is their right to cross someone else's land. Under today's laws in some cases they can enter upon the land of someone else. There in lies the issue.. Oh! I love the "ol' my hound can't read signs excuse"... That is why the law must change...
> How about this concept? If your Hound is Trespassing You are Trespassing.
> 
> Hound Hunter Rights?
> How about Land Owner Rights, Individual Hunter Rights?


How you ask when you want to impose stiffer penalities on the hunting dog community who is hunting legally and ethically. Look at the dog retrieval bill it will apply stiffer penalities to the dog hunter instead of the common trespasser. not who is been targeted. You whine and complain about Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance were here to stay and like it or not we work for the hunting dog community.


----------



## vabass

Hokieman said:


> You whine and complain about Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance were here to stay and like it or not we work for the hunting dog community.



Then stick to hunting dog issues and dont team up with HSUS antis to restrict hunting opportunities for others.


----------



## Hokieman

vabass said:


> Then stick to hunting dog issues and dont team up with HSUS antis to restrict hunting opportunities for others.


In no way have we teamed up with hsus.


----------



## BigBirdVA

vabass said:


> Then stick to hunting dog issues and dont team up with HSUS antis to restrict hunting opportunities for others.


They're only interested in what they want and they'll team up with anyone that might help them. Like dragging all other dog related hunting groups into the problem they created. VDGIF calls it hounds but left off the deer part as well. Everyone knows it's the deer dogger people have issues with. 


We keep hearing fox hounds in all this. How many see real authentic fox hunters out there running fox hounds? I mean people really running foxes that you know aren't using it as an excuse to justify unethical and illegal activity?


----------



## BigBirdVA

I did some searching for fox hunting clubs in VA. I found a lot of them. To sum it up the picture below is what ALL of them show on their web sites. At first glance it may look like something we've seen on here crying about "my sport" but it's not remotely close to the way the bunch causing problems hunts. Again just goes to show VHDA is riding on the back of others in an effort to save their butts.


----------



## vabass

Hokieman said:


> In no way have we teamed up with hsus.


Hmmm. Lets see. Who showed up in oposition to SB 524 Sunday hunting in Richmond yesterday. HSUS and VA Hunting Dog Alliance. You should choose your friends more wisely. Thanks for helping to take away hunting opportunities from good hard working people.


----------



## BigBirdVA

vabass said:


> Hmmm. Lets see. Who showed up in oposition to SB 524 Sunday hunting in Richmond yesterday. HSUS and VA Hunting Dog Alliance. You should choose your friends more wisely. Thanks for helping to take away hunting opportunities from good hard working people.


That should clear things up a bit for anyone that might not have them figured out yet.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I did some searching for fox hunting clubs in VA. I found a lot of them. To sum it up the picture below is what ALL of them show on their web sites. At first glance it may look like something we've seen on here crying about "my sport" but it's not remotely close to the way the bunch causing problems hunts. Again just goes to show VHDA is riding on the back of others in an effort to save their butts.


BigBird do you not understand VIRGINIA HUNTING DOG ALLIANCE is a political action group fighting for the rights of the hunting dog community which is plural many more than one and represents over 15,000 and growing members and over 270 clubs. Wow thank you for taking the time out of your day to check out one of our member sites.:wink:


----------



## Hokieman

vabass said:


> Hmmm. Lets see. Who showed up in oposition to SB 524 Sunday hunting in Richmond yesterday. HSUS and VA Hunting Dog Alliance. You should choose your friends more wisely. Thanks for helping to take away hunting opportunities from good hard working people.


It's no more clearer than DGIF inviting HSUS to sit in on the focus group meetings or the stakeholders meetings and give their opinions concerning hound hunting. I guess that was just fine with you. No your statement and assumptions are wrong, we are not working with HSUS OR PETA, It just happen that their lobbyist was there to speak out agianst Sunday Hunting as Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance.


----------



## jfish

*Rights Trampled!*

Hokie, 
You say I am stepping on your rights?
_* HOKIEMAN:How you ask when you want to impose stiffer penalities on the hunting dog community who is hunting legally and ethically. *_

If you are running deer hounds legally how will the increase in penalities impact you? If you are legal, penalities are a moot point.  However, if you are scared that you might slip and do something illegal with your hounds then I would understand your concern with increased penalities...

I would think ethical deer hound hunters would applaud stiffer penalities for those who have brought such a bad image to their sport?

Remember;
Only Thieves care if the penalities for stealing goes up.

I would agree that trespassing is trespassing, however if you are armed I have no problem with enhanced penalities. Many crimes have enhanced penalities if armed..


----------



## Moon

*You will notice*

that their alliance includes so called hunting dogs for racocons, birds, rabbits, fox, squirrels ALTHOUGH their deer chasing practices are the ONLY ones in question Keep at it ole Hokie. If you succeed at having the current efforts, of land owning Virginians who are only asking for their privacy, to be thrown out, Im here to tell you that the battle will be ramped up from there. Your " A *LIE* ANCE" can take that to the bank.


----------



## BigBirdVA

I looked up fox hunting and Virginia on Google. Every single link to a club or group was horses and red coats. Not once did I see orange hats and dog boxes in pickups. Some time ago it seems the dog chasers slipped in on what the fox hunters had going. Over time they abused it to the point something has to be done to fix the mess they created. And now they're asking the very group of hunters they took from for help. If I was a traditional fox hunter I wouldn't support them. They already shown they'll side with other anti-hunting groups if it suits their needs. HM can try to talk his way out of that one but it's not going to work. He claimed they represent many but how come the survey the VDGIF did had Sundays approved with 62%? They represent and twist facts to meet their own agenda. They can't and shouldn't be trusted.


----------



## Moon

*if it looks like a duck...........................................*

 I would hope that VA legislators finally see through the fog and do the right thing. 

Club registration for deer chasing

Dog registration - either deer or fox but NOT both - Collar tag to verify which

Dog OWNER registration

Land to be used for chasing deer registered by each club and dog owner with written permission from land owner on file

Three strikes and you are out system for law breakers 

Dog owners that register for both deer and fox chasing permits will be required to apply for both permits and identify which on their dogs' collars.

If DGIF's current administration level is not adequate to emplement required actions to end trespassing and privacy encroachment, hire more and have dog license fees pay for it.

I think Florida's dog license requirements covers much of the above suggestions


----------



## jfish

*Accountability*

Having them claim what they are chasing will only work if the hounds are micro chipped or tattoed. Every Hound will have a duplicate collar if they are not chipped. Micro chips will end accountablility issues...


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I looked up fox hunting and Virginia on Google. Every single link to a club or group was horses and red coats. Not once did I see orange hats and dog boxes in pickups. Some time ago it seems the dog chasers slipped in on what the fox hunters had going. Over time they abused it to the point something has to be done to fix the mess they created. And now they're asking the very group of hunters they took from for help. If I was a traditional fox hunter I wouldn't support them. They already shown they'll side with other anti-hunting groups if it suits their needs. HM can try to talk his way out of that one but it's not going to work. He claimed they represent many but how come the survey the VDGIF did had Sundays approved with 62%? They represent and twist facts to meet their own agenda. They can't and shouldn't be trusted.


You'll twist anything to fit. That is an inncorrect statement.


----------



## Hokieman

jfish said:


> Hokie,
> You say I am stepping on your rights?
> _* HOKIEMAN:How you ask when you want to impose stiffer penalities on the hunting dog community who is hunting legally and ethically. *_
> 
> If you are running deer hounds legally how will the increase in penalities impact you? If you are legal, penalities are a moot point. However, if you are scared that you might slip and do something illegal with your hounds then I would understand your concern with increased penalities...
> 
> I would think ethical deer hound hunters would applaud stiffer penalities for those who have brought such a bad image to their sport?
> 
> Remember;
> Only Thieves care if the penalities for stealing goes up.
> 
> I would agree that trespassing is trespassing, however if you are armed I have no problem with enhanced penalities. Many crimes have enhanced penalities if armed..


This bill has to pass first.


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> that their alliance includes so called hunting dogs for racocons, birds, rabbits, fox, squirrels ALTHOUGH their deer chasing practices are the ONLY ones in question Keep at it ole Hokie. If you succeed at having the current efforts, of land owning Virginians who are only asking for their privacy, to be thrown out, Im here to tell you that the battle will be ramped up from there. Your " A *LIE* ANCE" can take that to the bank.


We are working on a solution but don't you think you or anyone else will force one down our throats.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> That should clear things up a bit for anyone that might not have them figured out yet.


This coming from someone who has been pushing to take someones hunting from them all year. your song is getting old bigbird so start singing a new tune.:tongue:


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> We are working on a solution but don't you think you or anyone else will force one down our throats.


Does this mean that if the State finds a solution that you won't follow the law? (Please say yes, please say yes, please say yes)


----------



## Moon

*Down your throats?*

Like we've had dogs and trespassers shoved down our throats for years? If so, then yes if that's what it takes and from the looks of things that's what it may take. Too bad but it will be a refreshing change for sure. I won't know how to handle not being distracted almost on a daily basis by actions of deer chasers. Just think, I'll be able to actually spend quiet afternoons on my property and not have my hunting ruined by barking dogs, trucks with loud mufflers, horn blowing, shooting guns and hollering for dogs. YES!!!!epsi:


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> Like we've had dogs and trespassers shoved down our throats for years? If so, then yes if that's what it takes and from the looks of things that's what it may take. Too bad but it will be a refreshing change for sure. I won't know how to handle not being distracted almost on a daily basis by actions of deer chasers. Just think, I'll be able to actually spend quiet afternoons on my property and not have my hunting ruined by barking dogs, trucks with loud mufflers, horn blowing, shooting guns and hollering for dogs. YES!!!!epsi:


You sure do like listening to your own fiddle


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Does this mean that if the State finds a solution that you won't follow the law? (Please say yes, please say yes, please say yes)


the law is the law:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> You'll twist anything to fit. That is an inncorrect statement.


Ok, find me a link to a club that's primarily fox hunting that does it in a similar manner that the dog chasers do it. That is trucks and such without horses and riders in the traditional manner.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> This coming from someone who has been pushing to take someones hunting from them all year. your song is getting old bigbird so start singing a new tune.:tongue:


I'm not pushing to take someones hunting. I'm pushing for others not to take mine away from me. i.e. dogs out of season, dogs on other's lands, people entering private land. The fact remains the dog chaser and HSUS, one of the biggest anti-hunter groups both agreed to TAKE hunting opportunities from hunters. It's ok for you to want to take Sunday hunting from me but I'm not supposed to want to stop you from interfering with others rights to a undisturbed hunt? Nice sell but no one's interested in your line of crap the dog chaser is peddling.


----------



## Moon

*and the fiddling will continue*

until something is done about it. Sorry you don't like my and thousands of others' song. I know you would like for us to go away so your buddies can continue doing what they've done for years. The cat's out of the bag my friend, or should I say the dog's IN the bag


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> until something is done about it. Sorry you don't like my and thousands of others' song. I know you would like for us to go away so your buddies can continue doing what they've done for years. The cat's out of the bag my friend, or should I say the dog's IN the bag


:darkbeer:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I'm not pushing to take someones hunting. I'm pushing for others not to take mine away from me. i.e. dogs out of season, dogs on other's lands, people entering private land. The fact remains the dog chaser and HSUS, one of the biggest anti-hunter groups both agreed to TAKE hunting opportunities from hunters. It's ok for you to want to take Sunday hunting from me but I'm not supposed to want to stop you from interfering with others rights to a undisturbed hunt? Nice sell but no one's interested in your line of crap the dog chaser is peddling.


Your a selfish hunter plain and simple. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon.


----------



## Moon

*Wanna bet? *

Keep your eye on the ball........................or should I say keep your eye on the dog:BrownBear:


----------



## Hokieman

Many reply to bobwhite's calls for help

Wednesday, Jan 23, 2008 - 12:07 AM Updated: 09:41 AM

By ANDY THOMPSON
TIMES-DISPATCH COLUMNIST
The bobwhite quail may be experiencing tough times in the state of Virginia, but the game bird certainly has some high-powered friends.

Yesterday, at a meeting of the board of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, those friends made a spirited pitch to take action against habitat loss and other factors threatening Colinus virginianus.

"For years I have been concerned, as have so many people, with the decreasing population of bobwhite quail," said former governor Linwood Holton. "I've mentioned it to several directors. This is the first time, though, that we've been able to get an organized effort, sponsored by the commission, to really take some active participation in restoring the population of this popular bird."

Holton was referring to the Quail Focus Group that the DGIF put together in December to discuss what could be done to stem the tide of population loss in the state. Holton was a member of the focus group, as was former DGIF board chairman Charlie McDaniel.

He and Holton, speaking on behalf of the focus group, recommended that the board enact a Bobwhite Quail Action Plan "encompassing management, research, education, outreach, coordination [with private and public partners], and specifically addressing environmental and other factors limiting quail numbers."

Other citizens, including members of local and regional chapters of Quail Unlimited as well as private landowners and hunters, spoke in support of the measure.

A key provision of the plan would have the DGIF establish official bobwhite quail habitats "to demonstrate the effectiveness of habitat management." Public areas, such as department maintained wildlife management areas, were mentioned as possibilities. So, too, were areas along power transmission lines.

The motion passed unanimously.

The board also heard from Virginia Tech researchers Dr. Steve McMullin and Sara Kozlowski on the findings of the recently completed hound hunting focus-group meetings. The board didn't vote on any issues regarding hound hunting but presented a timeline for action on addressing the concerns of both hunters who hunt with hounds and landowners.

According to McMullin and Kozlowski, there were a few general findings: 1) Virginia is becoming more urban and suburban; 2) New landowners who come in contact with hound hunters don't necessarily understand the culture behind it; 3) the actions of a minority of hound hunters are giving all hound hunters, and hunters in general, a bad reputation.

The next step in the process, McMullin and Kozlowski said, will be to set up a survey on the VDGIF Web site to "further gather information about issues and understand viewpoints of various stakeholder groups." After that, a stakeholder advisory committee will convene to discuss the issues and make recommendations. Once the public and interested parties review those recommendations this summer, the final proposals will be submitted to the board for a vote in October.

The final significant item of business concerned a law passed during the 2007 session of the General Assembly requiring the department to implement a boater-safety education program for all motorboat and personal watercraft operators. According to the law, if implemented by the DGIF on July 1, 2008 as written, all personal watercraft operators must meet specific boating safety education requirements (i.e. must take a class and pass a test). The requirements will be phased in between July of 2009 and July of 2016, depending on the boat operator's age. 


Contact Andy Thompson at (804) 649-6579 or [email protected].


----------



## coxva

*I agree with most of the anti-dog posts*

I have had the same experiences as shootercannon on a 1200 acre parcel. I have hunted it for 30 years and have always had hunt clubs drop their dogs off on our property. The dogs run from the beginning of season until they die of either starvation or freezing. It is sad to see these dogs as thin as greyhounds wandering your hunt property. They get wilder and wilder as the season goes on. They run deer day and night to include Sundays. Everyone seems to be against hunting on Sundays. We allow the hunt club to come and collect the dogs and we tie them up outside our gate when they are not too wild for us to catch them. The dog hunters usually cut them loose and they end up right back on the deer trails on our property. I never have seen anyone bother to come on the property to retrieve them. It requires walking and I don't usually see them too far from their trucks. I love how this is a heritage thing. VA used to be a slave state is that a proud part or our heritage. There are people that love dog fighting. If you grew up around that is it your heritage. I hope the property owners are taken into consideration when they come up with a solution to the complaints. I am afraid there is no way to appease both sides of this issue. I just wish the dog guys cared how much their sport upsets the rest of us.


----------



## Moon

*But they obviously don't*

Hard to believe but true, as thousands of us can attest. I would be ashamed that the very nature of my method of taking deer continually deprives others of their privacy on THEIR property. When I see all the protesting and even forming of deer chasing alliances in hopes of continuing their selfish and arrogant practices it just drives home how land owners and people that are surrounded by these people have been trampled over for years and are expected to continue grinning and bearing it. What a shame


----------



## deepzak

coxva said:


> I have had the same experiences as shootercannon on a 1200 acre parcel. I have hunted it for 30 years and have always had hunt clubs drop their dogs off on our property. The dogs run from the beginning of season until they die of either starvation or freezing. It is sad to see these dogs as thin as greyhounds wandering your hunt property. They get wilder and wilder as the season goes on. They run deer day and night to include Sundays. Everyone seems to be against hunting on Sundays. We allow the hunt club to come and collect the dogs and we tie them up outside our gate when they are not too wild for us to catch them. The dog hunters usually cut them loose and they end up right back on the deer trails on our property. I never have seen anyone bother to come on the property to retrieve them. It requires walking and I don't usually see them too far from their trucks. I love how this is a heritage thing. VA used to be a slave state is that a proud part or our heritage. There are people that love dog fighting. If you grew up around that is it your heritage. I hope the property owners are taken into consideration when they come up with a solution to the complaints. I am afraid there is no way to appease both sides of this issue. I just wish the dog guys cared how much their sport upsets the rest of us.


Check out the thread on Sunday hunting (HB1456).

You do make some excellent points!


----------



## 3sheets

*Hey Hokieman*

Me again (did ya miss me) with more questions:

What is your "position" in the VHDA; are you on the Board of Directors or something?? :set1_fishing:

How are ya'll doing on the "Missing Hound" and "Turn in a Tresspassor" hotlines suggestions?? :bolt:



3sheets :bounce:


----------



## deepzak

3sheets said:


> Me again (did ya miss me) with more questions:
> 
> What is your "position" in the VHDA; are you on the Board of Directors or something?? :set1_fishing:
> 
> How are ya'll doing on the "Missing Hound" and "Turn in a Tresspassor" hotlines suggestions?? :bolt:
> 
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Oh, you were serious about that? You actually wanted them to take action? Wouldn't that mean admitting there was a problem?:wink:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> Me again (did ya miss me) with more questions:
> 
> What is your "position" in the VHDA; are you on the Board of Directors or something?? :set1_fishing:
> 
> How are ya'll doing on the "Missing Hound" and "Turn in a Tresspassor" hotlines suggestions?? :bolt:
> 
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


To be honest, been working on adding new members names to database and keeping up with bills being proposed in General Assembly. We are laying everything down until after it is over since quick action is needed in supporting or opposing a bill.:wink:


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Oh, you were serious about that? You actually wanted them to take action? Wouldn't that mean admitting there was a problem?:wink:


Now that was funny.:mg:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> To be honest, been working on adding new members names to database and keeping up with bills being proposed in General Assembly. We are laying everything down until after it is over since quick action is needed in supporting or opposing a bill.:wink:


So, you won't even tell little old me if you are on the VHDA Board or not?? Shame, shame ... you wouldn't wanna see my "other side" ... :devil: ... to come out again now would ya ?? :wink:


3sheets :bounce:


----------



## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> So, you won't even tell little old me if you are on the VHDA Board or not?? Shame, shame ... you wouldn't wanna see my "other side" ... :devil: ... to come out again now would ya ?? :wink:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


Web site says he's on it as Derick Ratcliffe. Also everyone needs to go there and read the page on Legislation 2008.
http://vahda.org/legislation.htm
Tells you where they're at on issues. Any bill for control or being accountable for anything they're against. Like this one.


> SB 263 Retrieving hunting dogs. Summary as introduced: Retrieving hunting dogs. Requires the revocation of the hunting license for the current and the next hunting seasons as well as the forfeiture of the firearm or bow and arrow of any person who is convicted of carrying such weapons on another person's property while he is retrieving his hunting dogs. VHDA STRONGLY OPPOSES


 Also most any that are dog care or dog related they're against. Should help clear up who and what they stand for. They want no penalties for any infraction and don't want to end the history of problems their hunting methods create. They don't want any method of control being added to dog chasing. And they want to be the voice for hunters in VA.? They're a voice all right and just listen to what they're saying.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Web site says he's on it as Derick Ratcliffe. Also everyone needs to go there and read the page on Legislation 2008.
> http://vahda.org/legislation.htm
> Tells you where they're at on issues. Any bill for control or being accountable for anything they're against. Like this one. Also most any that are dog care or dog related they're against. Should help clear up who and what they stand for. They want no penalties for any infraction and don't want to end the history of problems their hunting methods create. They don't want any method of control being added to dog chasing. And they want to be the voice for hunters in VA.? They're a voice all right and just listen to what they're saying.



bill SB 263 Retrieving hunting dogs. Summary as introduced: Retrieving hunting dogs. Requires the revocation of the hunting license for the current and the next hunting seasons as well as the forfeiture of the firearm or bow and arrow of any person who is convicted of carrying such weapons on another person's property while he is retrieving his hunting dogs. VHDA STRONGLY OPPOSES 

Yes we oppose such a bill because it is only aimed at the hunting dog community and not all hunters who trespass. If this bill would include all who trespass Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance would support it.


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> So, you won't even tell little old me if you are on the VHDA Board or not?? Shame, shame ... you wouldn't wanna see my "other side" ... :devil: ... to come out again now would ya ?? :wink:
> 
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


I think you already knew the answer to that question before you asked, but to answer it, Yes I am a Board Member.:mg:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> bill SB 263 Retrieving hunting dogs. Summary as introduced: Retrieving hunting dogs. Requires the revocation of the hunting license for the current and the next hunting seasons as well as the forfeiture of the firearm or bow and arrow of any person who is convicted of carrying such weapons on another person's property while he is retrieving his hunting dogs. VHDA STRONGLY OPPOSES
> 
> Yes we oppose such a bill because it is only aimed at the hunting dog community and not all hunters who trespass. If this bill would include all who trespass Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance would support it.


We already have laws against that. Call your local game warden. That's what you always tell us on dog problems. LOL 

We need a dog chaser law because they're the ones doing it the most. Dog driver with gun in hand leads the pack. They slip into a little small cut over or other land they have no rights to and, oops, sorry just crossed the line and shot a deer on another's property. Dog handlers and those running the hunt are the ones most guilty of and the ones keeping these illegal an unethical practices alive. Stop the leaders and it's over. It's not the standers, it's the management that needs to be stopped. This law does just that. 

I do however understand VHDA being against any law that the dog chaser can't get out of by claiming he's innocent.:embara: You know like " they're running foxes, not deer" one that's been used many times.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> We already have laws against that. Call your local game warden. That's what you always tell us on dog problems. LOL
> 
> We need a dog chaser law because they're the ones doing it the most. Dog driver with gun in hand leads the pack. They slip into a little small cut over or other land they have no rights to and, oops, sorry just crossed the line and shot a deer on another's property. Dog handlers and those running the hunt are the ones most guilty of and the ones keeping these illegal an unethical practices alive. Stop the leaders and it's over. It's not the standers, it's the management that needs to be stopped.


No you need more enforcement officers to get serious about their job and follow up peoples complaints and write tickets. You also need DGIF Board to hire new enforcement officers or turn over some responsability to the county and let law enforcement officers handle the complaints and write the tickets to pursuade such trespassing and illegal hunting from happening. but just wait and your concerns will be met as we are working on it.:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> No you need more enforcement officers to get serious about their job and follow up peoples complaints and write tickets. You also need DGIF Board to hire new enforcement officers or turn over some responsability to the county and let law enforcement officers handle the complaints and write the tickets to pursuade such trespassing and illegal hunting from happening. but just wait and your concerns will be met as we are working on it.:wink:


It's the laws, not the enforcers. If we had a dog chasing deer out of season law that had bite to it I could go to a magistrate and by-pass the so called officers that aren't serious as you claim. Dog in hand, name on collar and a little video footage and it's a done deal. Give me a law and see what happens. Laws are the key for an individual to protect and enjoy their property and keep all their rights intact. It's just a matter of time till it gets straightened out and everyone sees the dog chasers and their group for what they really are. It's finally being seen for what it really is. Thanks VHDA for the insight! :wink:


----------



## Hokieman

Nichols' call for Sunday bow hunting defeated
By LILLIAN KAFKA
[email protected]
Friday, January 25, 2008


RICHMOND -- A House of Delegates subcommittee killed a Prince William County delegate's attempt to allow bow hunting on Sundays after hearing protests from farm and agricultural lobbyists. 
"The reasons for [opposition] begin with faith, and they expand to those people such as horse riders who enjoy the woods on Sundays," said Wilmer Stoneman III, a lobbyist for the Farm Bureau of Virginia.

Del. Paul F. Nichols, D-Occoquan, called the Sunday prohibition of hunting on private property "outdated." He said he proposed the idea at the request of bow hunters who work Monday through Saturday.

His bill, HB 1456, would have allowed bow hunting on Sundays on private property for only two years. Before he heard the request, the delegate from suburban Washington, D.C., said he didn't even know Virginia prohibited hunting on Sundays.

"We've had this ongoing discussion about hunting on Sundays," said R. Lee Ware, R-Powhatan, chairman of the subcommittee.

He joked and asked Nichols, "Boy, why'd you bring this bill to this committee?"

Katie Kyger Frazier, lobbyist for the Virginia Agribusiness Council, said the only day during hunting season that horse riders can ride in the woods without fear of coming into crossfire is Sundays.


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## BigBirdVA

Yes I've read accounts of horses being shot with arrows by hunters every time they ventured out on other days to ride during hunting season. 

It's horse all right, horse crap!


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Yes I've read accounts of horses being shot with arrows by hunters every time they ventured out on other days to ride during hunting season.
> 
> It's horse all right, horse crap!


Go play with your crossbow.:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Go play with your crossbow.:wink:


Go play with your dog. Before trapping season starts.


----------



## deepzak

3sheets said:


> So, you won't even tell little old me if you are on the VHDA Board or not?? Shame, shame ... you wouldn't wanna see my "other side" ... :devil: ... to come out again now would ya ?? :wink:
> 
> 3sheets :bounce:


I DO!!!!!!I DO!!!!!!:wink:



BigBirdVA said:


> Web site says he's on it as Derick Ratcliffe. Also everyone needs to go there and read the page on Legislation 2008.
> http://vahda.org/legislation.htm
> Tells you where they're at on issues. Any bill for control or being accountable for anything they're against. Like this one. Also most any that are dog care or dog related they're against. Should help clear up who and what they stand for. They want no penalties for any infraction and don't want to end the history of problems their hunting methods create. They don't want any method of control being added to dog chasing. And they want to be the voice for hunters in VA.? They're a voice all right and just listen to what they're saying.


Kind of sounds like they are infavor of allowing the breaking of the law.


----------



## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> I DO!!!!!!I DO!!!!!!:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of sounds like they are infavor of allowing the breaking of the law.


Your opinion is incorrect as I have explained it more than once. Your upset and it's ok to be.....:cocktail:


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> No you need more enforcement officers to get serious about their job and follow up peoples complaints and write tickets. You also need DGIF Board to hire new enforcement officers or turn over some responsability to the county and let law enforcement officers handle the complaints and write the tickets to pursuade such trespassing and illegal hunting from happening. but just wait and your concerns will be met as we are working on it.:wink:


When "the dog cant read" works as a defense, the law is meaningless. This law may have some teeth. It sounds like VHDA is afraid they might get biten.



Hokieman said:


> Nichols' call for Sunday bow hunting defeated
> By LILLIAN KAFKA
> [email protected]
> Friday, January 25, 2008
> 
> 
> RICHMOND -- A House of Delegates subcommittee killed a Prince William County delegate's attempt to allow bow hunting on Sundays after hearing protests from farm and agricultural lobbyists.
> "The reasons for [opposition] begin with faith, and they expand to those people such as horse riders who enjoy the woods on Sundays," said Wilmer Stoneman III, a lobbyist for the Farm Bureau of Virginia.
> 
> Del. Paul F. Nichols, D-Occoquan, called the Sunday prohibition of hunting on private property "outdated." He said he proposed the idea at the request of bow hunters who work Monday through Saturday.
> 
> His bill, HB 1456, would have allowed bow hunting on Sundays on private property for only two years. Before he heard the request, the delegate from suburban Washington, D.C., said he didn't even know Virginia prohibited hunting on Sundays.
> 
> "We've had this ongoing discussion about hunting on Sundays," said R. Lee Ware, R-Powhatan, chairman of the subcommittee.
> 
> He joked and asked Nichols, "Boy, why'd you bring this bill to this committee?"
> 
> Katie Kyger Frazier, lobbyist for the Virginia Agribusiness Council, said the only day during hunting season that horse riders can ride in the woods without fear of coming into crossfire is Sundays.


Think I may have to drop the good Delegate an email reminding him of his duty to seperate Church and State.
Maybe this means that we can hunt on sundays during the Horse riding season (summer) since that will be the only time WE could hunt without fear of being run over by horse's.


----------



## deepzak

Email sent. CC'ed the other Delegates so they get the point too. Below is the email I sent.

Delegate Ware,
I am a hunter in the Commonwealth of Virginia and I have recently seen the article attached below. I noticed that you voted against it. I am writing you to remind you of the seperation of church and state. A bill based on religious beliefs has been determined to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States. Recently, in a southern state, the Capital was forced to remove the 10 commandments from it's premesis due to the seperation of church and state. I fear that this law will be challanged in the court system on these grounds. Where do you think a faith based law will fall? 

As for the horse riders, hunting is only allowed 3 months of the year. Riding horse's is allowed all year long. Would you support year round hunting with no hunting on Sunday's? Landowners have the option to not allow hunting on their property, so if they ride horses, they can say no to hunters and not fear being shot. Honestly, I have never heard of a horse rider being shot by an archer, but I understand their fear.

I beg that you reconsider your position on this bill. 

Thank you,
Steve Tomasek

Nichols' call for Sunday bow hunting defeated
By LILLIAN KAFKA
[email protected]
Friday, January 25, 2008


RICHMOND -- A House of Delegates subcommittee killed a Prince William County delegate's attempt to allow bow hunting on Sundays after hearing protests from farm and agricultural lobbyists. 
"The reasons for [opposition] begin with faith, and they expand to those people such as horse riders who enjoy the woods on Sundays," said Wilmer Stoneman III, a lobbyist for the Farm Bureau of Virginia.

Del. Paul F. Nichols, D-Occoquan, called the Sunday prohibition of hunting on private property "outdated." He said he proposed the idea at the request of bow hunters who work Monday through Saturday.

His bill, HB 1456, would have allowed bow hunting on Sundays on private property for only two years. Before he heard the request, the delegate from suburban Washington, D.C., said he didn't even know Virginia prohibited hunting on Sundays.

"We've had this ongoing discussion about hunting on Sundays," said R. Lee Ware, R-Powhatan, chairman of the subcommittee.

He joked and asked Nichols, "Boy, why'd you bring this bill to this committee?"

Katie Kyger Frazier, lobbyist for the Virginia Agribusiness Council, said the only day during hunting season that horse riders can ride in the woods without fear of coming into crossfire is Sundays.


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## Moon

*I'm 65 years old and have*

never seen a horse ridden across my property. How idiotic can it get?


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## rwells

Know what you call a horse riding across my property?
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Dog Food:drummer:


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## BigBirdVA

Kind of like what you call a dog running across property out of season

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missing.........:rip:


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## rwells

Lets go on tour we'll make millions.


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## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> never seen a horse ridden across my property. How idiotic can it get?


They just pick a reason, logic has nothing to do with it, and they run with it. Same reasoning that has worked for years to keep hunting in the same place it's been. Still it's unbelievable to read the BS reasons and see action like this from our legislators. But hey they're the same ones that bring up all the other absurd crap you read about every year.


I'm going to try something else this year as well.


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## deepzak

*Reply from Delegate Ware*

Here is the reply I recieved last night (acutally, it was quite fast for a reply from a government official, he was working late last night):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: HB 1456‏ 
From: [email protected] 
Sent: Fri 1/25/08 6:59 PM 
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

Good to hear from you. The issue is not one of faith for me--and, by the way, the paper misquoted me about the bill: I was quoting former Ag Chairman Vic Thomas, whose reputation as a champion of sportsmen you may know. Rather, constituents, across rural Virginia at that, wish to use the outdoors without fear on one day of the week, and Sunday is naturally the most appropriate day, given the importance of Saturday to all hunters. We will no doubt continue to review the issue. Best wishes,


Cordially, Lee Ware

R. Lee Ware
Member, Virginia House of Delegates (65th District)
P.O. Box 689
Powhatan, VA 23139

David A. Bovenizer IV, Consigliere

DISTRICT OFFICE:
P.O. Box 689
Powhatan,.Virginia 23139
Telephone: (804) 598-6696
Email: [email protected]

DURING SESSION:
Room 409 General Assembly Building, Richmond, 23218
Telephone: (804) 698-1065
Email: [email protected]
Secretary: Barbara Monroe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the most professional and polite brush off :asleep: I have ever recieved. I guess I should feel honored. He must be a dog runner; I can tell because he redirected the blame to someone else and denied what was alleged against him. I have yet to formulate an adequate response, but I know one is short in coming. I will say that at least he answered his own email.


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## 3sheets

Ahhh, ya might ask him if he intends to sue the paper that misquoted him?? 

Course, you might also wanna forward his original response to the newpaper to find out if he happens to be talking out both sides of their mouths ... after all you said you thought he was a Deer Dogger, didn't ya?? :wink:


3sheets :bounce:


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## BigBirdVA

The problem here even though the law was for private lands only, is owners and others have learned through time they don't really control hunting on their own land - thanks to the long tradition of the dog chasers. They probably feel that as long as dog hunters are free to act the way they've done for many years the only way to have a safe day is zero hunting for all. And as we've all been saying people see the dog hunters and their bad act and view that as how all hunters act. So they don't want dog hunters on Sunday so all hunters pay the price for the dog chasers actions. No Sunday hunting till dog chasing is under control.


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## deepzak

I think I have made up my mind, but I can neither confirm nor deny that I will be hunting on Sunday's. WWBD? or as the case may be WWDCD (what would a dog chaser do?)


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> The problem here even though the law was for private lands only, is owners and others have learned through time they don't really control hunting on their own land - thanks to the long tradition of the dog chasers. They probably feel that as long as dog hunters are free to act the way they've done for many years the only way to have a safe day is zero hunting for all. And as we've all been saying people see the dog hunters and their bad act and view that as how all hunters act. So they don't want dog hunters on Sunday so all hunters pay the price for the dog chasers actions. No Sunday hunting till dog chasing is under control.


I hope you can smell the crap your shoveling. Man your reaching out there.


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## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> I hope you can smell the crap your shoveling. Man your reaching out there.


If a land owner is not afraid of tresspassers controlling his land, why would it bother him to deny a hunter access so that someone can ride a horse on his or her property?


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## Moon

*No chaser Hokie*

You need to check your boots..........................inside your boots I think that's where you'll likely find a load.:RockOn:


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## deepzak

Hokie, you need to check out Moons thread titled "Accroding to WRVA radio in Richmond VA." There is a money making opportunity for your VHDA organization. :wink: At least tell us what you think. (can't wait to hear this one  )


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## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> You need to check your boots..........................inside your boots I think that's where you'll likely find a load.:RockOn:


The other end has been delivering one as well. Not sure which might be worse.


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## Moon

*I think he's riding a*

dead :deadhorse.


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## Hokieman

:wink:


Moonkryket said:


> dead :deadhorse.


:wink:


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## tonyo6302

Hokieman, 

I have been keeping up with this thread too, and trying to bite my tongue. But I cannot stand it no more. Most of us were indifferent to deer dogging, until as one hunter from Falls Church wrote on the VDGIF Website last year, "your method of hunting (deer dogging) is foisted upon us" end of quote. 

My Points: 

1. Still hunters have already lost their chosen method of hunting, so the divide and conquer statements do not wash with us. You are fighting against any changes, thus ensuring we continue to have problems during prohibited seasons with deer dogs. You are not on board with changes to help us, therefore I cannot understand why you think we should help you out. 

2. Do not bury your head in the sand and pretend that there is no problem, or try to convince us that it is a minority of bad clubs that is giving deer dogging a bad name. Face the problem and help us still hunters fix it. If you do currently get your way in this state via high pressure lobbying, it will be for a short duration, all the while the problem continues to fester until it rears it's ugly head again. 


3. We still hunters speak the truth about the problems we contend with year after year. My Grandfather told me, "Son, always tell the truth. It may be unpopular, some won't like it, but the truth always has this nasty habit of coming out in the end." So don't automatically discount our statements just because they differ from your point of view and experiences. 

4. Your efforts to try to get all dog clubs to obey the law will serve you better in the long run, than the "Change be darned, no new deer dog laws" attitude that you and your alliance spout in spite of the truth posted by several hunters who have never talked to or met each other. Also, if your current efforts succeed, ya might just get the rest of us better organized for another round of fighting in the future. (Re-read #2 above) 

5. I have not read of or heard of hunters complaining about bird dogs, **** dogs, or rabbit dogs. This is a deer dog issue. Your website is intellectually and literally dishonest, and lacks integrity. (Re-read #3 above) Let me also join in on the Chorus of, "The Emporer, of the Virginia Dog Hunting Alliance, has no clothes on" 

I personally am not trying to get hound hunting stopped. I do think some changes are needed now. However, if I continue to have problems, especially during prohibited seasons, I may have a rabid change of heart. 

It sure is funny how every archery and muzzleloader season in the past 12 years since I have moved to VA has been full of deer dogs and deer doggers whose bows sure do sound like 30-06's when they shoot them.

Let me say this again, "The Emporer, of the Virginia Dog Hunting Alliance, has no clothes on" . You are not fooling the hunters who live in this state with your errant website or your dishonest arguements on this and other forums. May I suggest you clean up your website, your act, and your truthfullness.



Tony


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## Hokieman

The session is almost half over. Next week is cross over when the House of Delegates takes up Senate passed bills and the Senate takes up those bills passed by the House. The fun begins again! 

The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance has continued to work against a long list of bad “Animal Rights Bills”. 
a number have been killed, but are still a number to be defeated. We have taken positions on all bills that effect hunting, but because of the large number of bills this year have left the “Gun Bills” to the NRA and Virginia Civilian Defense League. We will get involved when our friends say they need our help!

A complete list of Bills that the Alliance is following and our positions are on the web site http://vahda.org. The Board of Directors in Accordance with the By-laws has approved these positions.


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## vabass

Hokieman said:


> A complete list of Bills that the Alliance is following and our positions are on the web site http://vahda.org. The Board of Directors in Accordance with the By-laws has approved these positions.



Just looking at your website. Why do feel an increase in penalities for fighting animals is such a bad thing? And I still cant figure out how you are so against Sunday Hunting. I really wish you guys would stick to the issues concerning dog hunting. I think you are alienating a lot of people (myself included) who otherwise might join in on your cause.


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## BigBirdVA

vabass said:


> Just looking at your website. Why do feel an increase in penalities for fighting animals is such a bad thing? And I still cant figure out how you are so against Sunday Hunting. I really wish you guys would stick to the issues concerning dog hunting. I think you are alienating a lot of people (myself included) who otherwise might join in on your cause.


Sundays the real reason. 
Sunday is the only day people living in rural VA east of the Blue Ridge can call a day of peace in the fall. Many feel, and comments on the survey VDGIF is doing support it, they don't feel safe or in control of their lands during dog season. The dog chasers know this and if Sundays are allowed it will be another day of heck or no day of peace for many that don't care for or like what the dog chasers do. They also feel if others, bowhunters, get in it will eventually lead to dog chasing one day after they see Sunday hunting really doesn't make any difference. If they have no weekends for 8 weeks or so then the public might turn against dog chasing and that's what they're afraid of. Funny they don't give explanations for most of their views. Now you know why. Another way the dog chasers to divide hunters. The VHDA wants what they want and to heck with what others want. VDGIF survey approved Sunday hunting by 62%.


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## deepzak

Sunday is not the actual Sabbath, Saturday is. Pope Constentine changed it on a whim. One man, on an arbitrary descision. So, in actuallity, Saturday should be the day that we cannot hunt, since we need to "keep holy the Sabbath." What would that do to the dog chasers since the majority of their hunts occur on Saturday?

My next question is, since Sunday is a day of rest for the animals, so they can be free of pressure from presuit, who will ensure that no other wild predators pressure the deer on Sundays? How do the deer know "today is Sunday, I've got a day off, I don't have to worry about hunters today?" Who is going to pay for the enforcement to keep the wild predators from harrassing the deer on Sundays? :wink:


----------



## CJF

Question for Hokieman

Your organization sides with the Animal Rights Activists when you publicly state you are against Sunday Hunting and fight any attempts to pass legislation in VA...It doesn't make sense to me and you never mention it in your myriad of posts across the internet. Why is this?


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> The session is almost half over. Next week is cross over when the House of Delegates takes up Senate passed bills and the Senate takes up those bills passed by the House. The fun begins again!
> 
> A complete list of Bills that the Alliance is following and our positions are on the web site http://vahda.org. The Board of Directors in Accordance with the By-laws has approved these positions.



Hummm, looks like Derick and the "pig slayer" need to do a little updating on their website !! :wink:

""HB 1352 Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. Summary as introduced: Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. Reconstitutes the membership of the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. The bill changes the criteria for appointment from the current requirement that there be a member chosen from each congressional district to at least one member, but no more than three, from each Department of Game and Inland Fisheries District. As a qualification for appointment, each Board member must have held a resident hunting or fishing license for three consecutive years. STRONGLY SUPPORT – VHDA Bill. 
See footnote #2 *Passed House Natural Resources sub-committee. *""

Yo Zak ... *"02/12/08 House: VOTE: --- DEFEATED #2 (47-Y 52-N)" *... can you say striiiiiiike #2 ?? :nixon:


----------



## BigBirdVA

CJF said:


> Question for Hokieman
> 
> Your organization sides with the Animal Rights Activists when you publicly state you are against Sunday Hunting and fight any attempts to pass legislation in VA...It doesn't make sense to me and you never mention it in your myriad of posts across the internet. Why is this?


Their campaign is only one way. That's not the way so it's brushed aside. Funny they're always quick to call anyone against dog chasing anti-hunters but they're the only group that's publicly sided with them.


----------



## deepzak

3sheets said:


> Hummm, looks like Derick and the "pig slayer" need to do a little updating on their website !! :wink:
> 
> ""HB 1352 Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. Summary as introduced: Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. Reconstitutes the membership of the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries. The bill changes the criteria for appointment from the current requirement that there be a member chosen from each congressional district to at least one member, but no more than three, from each Department of Game and Inland Fisheries District. As a qualification for appointment, each Board member must have held a resident hunting or fishing license for three consecutive years. STRONGLY SUPPORT – VHDA Bill.
> See footnote #2 *Passed House Natural Resources sub-committee. *""
> 
> Yo Zak ... *"02/12/08 House: VOTE: --- DEFEATED #2 (47-Y 52-N)" *... can you say striiiiiiike #2 ?? :nixon:


YES!!! I must say that I am relieved that they got at least one right. Now if we could just get them to listen to the majority of hunters on other issues........keep the push on!


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## 3sheets

deepzak said:


> YES!!! I must say that I am relieved that they got at least one right. Now if we could just get them to listen to the majority of hunters on other issues........keep the push on!


Also Zak, I'm thinking that it wouldn't hurt if a couple of us "of like mind" shouldn't send Mr. Duncan a congratulatory email of sorts. You know, sorta to cut thru the ice and all of the "other stuff". Course, it probably wouldn't hurt any to copy, thank, and especially inform each of our existing VDGIF Board representatives either. Wadda ya think ?? :wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

*More isolated dog stories...........*

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/search.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-02-16-0097.html
Wonder why this is a record low abandoned dog year? Not the survey in progress? NAaaaaaaaaaaa.



> Misfortune dogs canine castoffs
> Animals no longer useful to hunters are often abandoned
> 
> Saturday, Feb 16, 2008 - 12:08 AM Updated: 02:52 PM
> 
> By JANET CAGGIANO
> TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
> 
> It happens like clockwork.
> 
> Every January, a week or so after deer-hunting season has ended, beagles and tri-colored hounds show up at landfills scrounging for food. They rummage through backyard trash cans hoping to find a morsel.
> 
> "It's heartbreaking," said Mark Counts, animal-control officer for King and Queen County.
> 
> Evidence, Counts said, suggests that most of these lost canines were once hunting dogs, cut loose by their owners because they no longer serve a purpose -- too old, too slow or just unwilling to hunt.
> 
> "I don't know who these hunters are," Counts said. "I would kill to find a person doing it . . . so we could have them arrested."
> 
> Still, county officials say, the problem is not nearly as bad as it used to be. Many hunters pamper their dogs, spending large sums of money to keep them happy and healthy.
> 
> "It used to take us a few months to clean up all the dogs that were running loose," said Franklin Bates, supervisor of animal control for Charles City County. "But now there's a better working relationship with the hunt clubs."
> 
> Abandoning a dog is a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a fine up to $2,500. But it's next to impossible to catch someone in the act.
> 
> "The sad thing is, 99 percent of the hunters out there are responsible," Counts said. "Their dogs are in great shape. It's the small percentage who make things so difficult."
> 
> In rural counties across the region, animal shelters are taking in dozens of these throw-away purebreds and mixes. Since deer-hunting season kicked into high gear in November, Counts has picked up 35. The season ended Jan. 5.
> 
> "I wish this didn't happen at all," said Bradley McGehee, chief animal-control officer for Louisa County. "But the sad reality is, if a dog doesn't perform, [hunters] will abandon it. It's cheaper for them to buy a new one next fall than feed this one all winter."
> 
> The Louisa shelter took in 70 dogs in January. Twenty-two, or 31 percent, were abandoned hunting dogs. They are classified that way because of the telltale signs -- breed, collar marks, a skinny frame or perhaps a tattoo. Most of the beagles and hounds are older, but some are young pups afraid of loud noises such as gunfire.
> 
> "No one comes looking for them," said Sgt. Kevin Kilgore, chief of animal control in Hanover County. "We just find them walking down the middle of the road."
> 
> By law, county pounds must hold a lost dog five to 10 days. If no one claims it, officers try to adopt it out, or they turn it over to the Richmond Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and other animal-rescue groups.
> 
> Of the 165 dogs up for adoption at the SPCA, 40 are hounds, beagles or mixes. Many come from the Hanover shelter. The Hickory Hill Canine Rescue outside Ashland typically has about 50 ex-hunting dogs available for adoption.
> 
> Because many of these dogs are not accustomed to life as a family pet, they are harder to adopt. Their stay with rescue groups can be a year or longer.
> 
> Animal shelters don't have the luxury of waiting that long.
> 
> "Unless I can get them adopted, the prognosis is not good," McGehee said. Louisa euthanizes 25 percent to 50 percent of its hounds and beagles.
> 
> "I hate what happens," he said. "The fact that we find homes for some makes it better, but it still doesn't make it good. It's sad, and I don't know what to do to stop it."
> 
> Education is one key -- making sure hunters know they can legally turn in their dogs to their county animal shelter if they don't want them anymore.
> 
> "There's no sense turning them loose where they can cause problems on the road," said Jimmy Fitzgerald, a Charles City resident.
> 
> A hunter for 25 years, Fitzgerald has relinquished about 10 of his dogs to the county shelter because they were too old or did not hunt well.
> 
> "You do get attached to them," he said. "But you have to overlook that."
> 
> The older dogs are harder to place, but rescue groups such as Hanover's Hickory Hill and BARK, as well as Indian Rivers Humane Society in Aylett, will keep them indefinitely.
> 
> "These dogs are viewed as disposable, but they make the most loyal and loving pets," said Linda Wickham, who founded Hickory Hill two years ago. "The ones that don't want to hunt are so grateful to find a new home."
> Contact Janet Caggiano at (804) 649-6157 or [email protected].


----------



## Moon

*I wonder where they got*

"99% of them are responsible"??? Yeah, right!!:zip:


----------



## deepzak

Moonkryket said:


> "99% of them are responsible"??? Yeah, right!!:zip:


99% are responsible for doing this st.

I cannot believe that they allow these "people" to turn in their dogs just because they no longer hunt well enough. What a drain on tax payers. Someone has to pay to feed these animals while they are trying to find homes for them. 

:boink:I guess stuff like this explains why VHDA is opposed to the "Mike Vick" laws and opposed to the banning of gas chambers for destroying dogs. It's on their website.......I'm just say'n.:der:


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/search.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-02-16-0097.html
> Wonder why this is a record low abandoned dog year? Not the survey in progress? NAaaaaaaaaaaa.


This in noway represents the hunting dog community. I could go to the same animal shelter and see more dogs from poor pet owners than hunting dog owners.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> This in noway represents the hunting dog community. I could go to the same animal shelter and see more dogs from poor pet owners than hunting dog owners.


:hurt::hurt: Of course it doesn't prove a thing. We all know dog chasers are fine upstanding examples of the hunter in VA. This is all just a made up story. Maybe from your friends the HSUS. Go have dinner and a sleep over with them ( since it's been proven you'll get in bed with them now) and work things out. Let us know how it works out for you. 

Yes it's all a lie, typical dog chaser I'm in denial response. If you say it isn't so long enough they'll believe you right? :der:

The reason there are more from pet owners is the dog chasers usually just take them on a one way ride to the dirt nap. POP, end of problem. Now tell me that doesn't happen either.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> :hurt::hurt: Of course it doesn't prove a thing. We all know dog chasers are fine upstanding examples of the hunter in VA. This is all just a made up story. Maybe from your friends the HSUS. Go have dinner and a sleep over with them ( since it's been proven you'll get in bed with them now) and work things out. Let us know how it works out for you.
> 
> Yes it's all a lie, typical dog chaser I'm in denial response. If you say it isn't so long enough they'll believe you right? :der:
> 
> The reason there are more from pet owners is the dog chasers usually just take them on a one way ride to the dirt nap. POP, end of problem. Now tell me that doesn't happen either.


You would say anything to make the hunting dog community look bad, because your 100% anti-dog. Just go feed your parrots.:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> This in noway represents the hunting dog community. I could go to the same animal shelter and see more dogs from poor pet owners than hunting dog owners.


When you go, be sure take your fearless leader, "pig slayer" with you; who knows, they might just happen to have a couple of "porkers" he could :laser: "adopt". :zip:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> When you go, be sure take your fearless leader, "pig slayer" with you; who knows, they might just happen to have a couple of "porkers" he could :laser: "adopt". :zip:


LOL did you know the new director for DGIF Bob Duncan is a pigslayer as well and they both enjoy it. maybe you should try it sometime sailor boy.:darkbeer:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> LOL did you know the new director for DGIF Bob Duncan is a pigslayer as well and they both enjoy it. maybe you should try it sometime sailor boy.:darkbeer:


So your saying that he got verbally reprimanded by a governor as well, hambone??


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> So your saying that he got verbally reprimanded by a governor as well, hambone??


No but Bob loves to hunt boar as well and I don't know anything of the stipulations of the reprimand, maybe you can enlighten me.


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> No but Bob loves to hunt boar as well and I don't know anything of the stipulations of the reprimand, maybe you can enlighten me.


With your great googling capibilities, I'll let you find it on your own.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> You would say anything to make the hunting dog community look bad, because your 100% anti-dog. Just go feed your parrots.:wink:


They're all fed thank you.

I'm 100% anti bad image for hunters. Again reading more into something than is there. But what's new? I don't have to say or do a thing, they do a fine job of it all on their own. And I'm not the only one aware of it either.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> They're all fed thank you.
> 
> I'm 100% anti bad image for hunters. Again reading more into something than is there. But what's new? I don't have to say or do a thing, they do a fine job of it all on their own. And I'm not the only one aware of it either.


Well I do appreciate you pointing them out to everyone on every forum, you should be commended. Mr. Peta:wink:


----------



## Moon

*I knew of deer dog owners years ago*

that had a dog killing session at the end of each season. Just recently, a local deer chasing club had virtually all their dogs stolen a few weeks before chasing season started. But according to HM, we should ignore these things because 99% of all deer chasers are conscientious, law abiding citizens with much concern for private property owners and much love for their tools...............uhm..................dogs used for chasing foxes...............uhm.............deer (depending on when they throw them in the woods)

HM, why are you such a glutten for punishment trying to defend the indefenseable????


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> that had a dog killing session at the end of each season. Just recently, a local deer chasing club had virtually all their dogs stolen a few weeks before chasing season started. But according to HM, we should ignore these things because 99% of all deer chasers are conscientious, law abiding citizens with much concern for private property owners and much love for their tools...............uhm..................dogs used for chasing foxes...............uhm.............deer (depending on when they throw them in the woods)
> 
> HM, why are you such a glutten for punishment trying to defend the indefenseable????


If you see an illegal act by all means report it and stop it. We don't condone illegal activity. Report them and lets weed out the bad apples.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Well I do appreciate you pointing them out to everyone on every forum, you should be commended. Mr. Peta:wink:


Thanks Mr. HSUS. 


Attention everyone......... HM has been Goggling my name and he found out I have some pet birds - parrots to be exact. We used to breed them but got out of it years ago. So he's posting go feed my parrots like it's supposed to mean something to me or anyone else. Maybe it's to let me know he's searching my info up on the web. I'm flattered and didn't know you cared so much.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> If you see an illegal act by all means report it and stop it. We don't condone illegal activity. Report them and lets weed out the bad apples.


That's a lot of weeding to be done. More like deforestation. 
And it's not illegal to shoot your own dog if it's done with a single shot in a quick manner. Nice try on the "illegal act" line. Amazing how many times you try the same old illegal act thing without any success.


----------



## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> If you see an illegal act by all means report it and stop it. We don't condone illegal activity. Report them and lets weed out the bad apples.


Do you have these phrases set to hot keys or something? :dontknow: 

They never change, almost the exact same wording each and every time.:vom:


----------



## BigBirdVA

deepzak said:


> Do you have these phrases set to hot keys or something? :dontknow:
> 
> They never change, almost the exact same wording each and every time.:vom:


Dealing with him is a lot like the parrots. The repeat the same thing over and over and don't have a clue what they're saying. Guess that's why he brought it up.


----------



## 2-STROKE

Generally, individuals with miserable lives of their own, attempt to make the lives of others that are more fortunate, miserable too... :zip:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Dealing with him is a lot like the parrots. The repeat the same thing over and over and don't have a clue what they're saying. Guess that's why he brought it up.


Rick I feel sorry for you.:tongue:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Rick I feel sorry for you.:tongue:


Guess you've reached the end of things to cut-n-paste so we're onto personal comments on others huh? Truthfully I expected it sooner. But I had no doubt that you would get to it. You're predictable if nothing else.


----------



## rwells

In case you were wondering here is what HM is up to these days.

http://hunter316.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1203173173&page=1


----------



## 3sheets

BigBirdVA said:


> Thanks Mr. HSUS.
> 
> 
> Attention everyone......... HM has been Goggling my name and he found out I have some pet birds - parrots to be exact. We used to breed them but got out of it years ago. So he's posting go feed my parrots like it's supposed to mean something to me or anyone else. Maybe it's to let me know he's searching my info up on the web. I'm flattered and didn't know you cared so much.


Hey BB, that's really cool with the Bird breeding and all ... lemme know if you have any interest in getting back into the Bird breeding business. 

I gots some $$ to invest (sold some of my "pork futures") and I'm thinking there's a proverbial fortune to be made in *BPC's* ... you know, *"Border Patrol Condors"* ... and, I hain't not just talking bout the Mexican Border, either jack !! :wink:

Who knows, perhaps we could branch off into *DDRC's (Deer Dog Retrieval Condors)* as well??


----------



## 3sheets

rwells said:


> In case you were wondering here is what HM is up to these days.
> 
> http://hunter316.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1203173173&page=1


That's our boy Derick, making all sorts of new *"friends"* and creating a *"larger following"* everywhere he goes !! :wink:

Soooo Derick thinks he's a "Legal Eagle" now. One's gotta wonder if he would defend himself iffin he was ever charged with anything ... boy that would give a whole new meaning to the "defendant who represents himself in court has got a fool for a lawyer" saying, wouldn't it?? :chortle: :loco: :chortle: :loco: :chortle:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> That's a lot of weeding to be done. More like deforestation.
> And it's not illegal to shoot your own dog if it's done with a single shot in a quick manner. Nice try on the "illegal act" line. Amazing how many times you try the same old illegal act thing without any success.


I'm surprised actually of this news article to hear it from you the AC don't come out and pick up hunting dogs if that was the case since everyone nowadays has beagles and mixed for pets.


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> That's our boy Derick, making all sorts of new *"friends"* and creating a *"larger following"* everywhere he goes !! :wink:
> 
> Soooo Derick thinks he's a "Legal Eagle" now. One's gotta wonder if he would defend himself iffin he was ever charged with anything ... boy that would give a whole new meaning to the "defendant who represents himself in court has got a fool for a lawyer" saying, wouldn't it?? :chortle: :loco: :chortle: :loco: :chortle:


I haven't done no wrong.:darkbeer:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Guess you've reached the end of things to cut-n-paste so we're onto personal comments on others huh? Truthfully I expected it sooner. But I had no doubt that you would get to it. You're predictable if nothing else.


Only one who has posted personal information has been you these days Rick.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Dealing with him is a lot like the parrots. The repeat the same thing over and over and don't have a clue what they're saying. Guess that's why he brought it up.


I guess thats why you call yourself BigBird.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Thanks Mr. HSUS.
> 
> 
> Attention everyone......... HM has been Goggling my name and he found out I have some pet birds - parrots to be exact. We used to breed them but got out of it years ago. So he's posting go feed my parrots like it's supposed to mean something to me or anyone else. Maybe it's to let me know he's searching my info up on the web. I'm flattered and didn't know you cared so much.


Only one been googling anyone is you. and I am flattered.:darkbeer:


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> I haven't done no wrong.:darkbeer:


One can sure tell your real whiz at English, you even know bout using double-negatives and all that I see !! lmao :icon_1_lol: :lol3:


----------



## Hokieman

3sheets said:


> One can sure tell your real whiz at English, you even know bout using double-negatives and all that I see !! lmao :icon_1_lol: :lol3:


wait to I start with the metaphores and similys.:wink:


----------



## Hokieman

Hokieman said:


> This in noway represents the hunting dog community. I could go to the same animal shelter and see more dogs from poor pet owners than hunting dog owners.


A qoute

if I were an anti and I were going to try and get some negative exposure against hunters related to the discarded dogs, I'd do so where more people that don't hunt are going to see them. Bigger, more urban communities."

Dogs showing up in areas like that where there is very little hunting, certainly gives at least a clue that the dog was transported to those places for some other reason besides hunting. That's all I am saying.

A collar-less walker walking around in Lynnhaven vrs. a bean field around Amelia CH. Get the picture?


Such as someone like BigBird


----------



## BigBirdVA

I think this thread like HM has run it's course. Later guys.


----------



## deepzak

rwells said:


> In case you were wondering here is what HM is up to these days.
> 
> http://hunter316.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1203173173&page=1


Seems he's loved  where ever he goes! :wink:



3sheets said:


> One can sure tell your real whiz at English, you even know bout using double-negatives and all that I see !! lmao :icon_1_lol: :lol3:


Ya beat me to it. :aww: Guess I should check back here more often.:doh:

I guess this actually means that everything he does is wrong!


----------



## BigBirdVA

A little FYI for everyone. Look at the bottom of every VHDA page. http://vahda.org/donations.htm
Says


> Authorized and Paid for by the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance P.A.C (91-401)


So the VHDA is just a mouthpiece for a political PAC posing as concerned sportsman group trying to look out for you - and collect some funds in the mean time. All the money sent in goes to the PAC who really has other intentions.


----------



## ban_t

SB 263 
Retrieving hunting dogs. Summary as introduced: Retrieving hunting dogs. Requires the revocation of the hunting license for the current and the next hunting seasons as well as the forfeiture of the firearm or bow and arrow of any person who is convicted of carrying such weapons on another person's property while he is retrieving his hunting dogs. VHDA STRONGLY OPPOSES. Call your Delegate and request a NO vote on this bill! Passed Senate 38-1, 02/12/08 House: Referred to Committee on Agriculture, Chesapeake and Natural Resources

Would this not satisfy most Anti dog hound hunters? Just thought I ask:darkbeer: Oh Yeah it's call compromise.


----------



## ban_t

HB 1570 
Companion animals; sterilization; penalty. Summary as introduced: Companion animals; sterilization; penalty. Requires that sellers of dogs and cats adhere to the same sterilization requirements currently applied to releasing agencies, such as shelters and pounds. Breed improvers, fancier breeders, and hobby breeders would be exempt from the requirements. Violators would be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $150, while persons fraudulently claiming exemption would be subject to a civil penalty of $1,000. VHDA Strongly Opposes. Killed in House Agriculture, Conservation and Natural Resource Committee

Would it be safe too say that it would cause Hound hunters to take better care of said amnimals?:darkbeer:


----------



## ban_t

HB 1456 
Hunting; persons with bow and arrow or crossbow may hunt on Sundays. Summary as introduced: Hunting with bow and arrow or crossbow. Allows persons who hunt with a bow and arrow or crossbow to hunt on private lands on Sundays. VHDA Strongly Opposes any form of Sunday hunting. This bill is merely an attempt to put the camel's nose under the tent. Killed in House Natural Resources sub-committee of Agriculture Committee

What is the mater with this? Wow you guys lost another day of hunting, Opps did not get another day of hunting.
BIG LOSS TOO ALL


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> A little FYI for everyone. Look at the bottom of every VHDA page. http://vahda.org/donations.htm
> Says So the VHDA is just a mouthpiece for a political PAC posing as concerned sportsman group trying to look out for you - and collect some funds in the mean time. All the money sent in goes to the PAC who really has other intentions.


I guess you missed this link.

http://vahda.org/about.htm

The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is a Committee of autonomous organizations and individuals working in conjunction with the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc. a Virginia Political Action Committee registered with the Virginia State Board of Elections. All expenditures and receipts of the organization are reported in accordance with the Code of Virginia (Law). Financial reports are made quarterly and may be viewed at the State Board of Elections web site.:wink:


----------



## ban_t

no post's too the other three post's 
wating......................................
wating on copywrite............................ Oh yes this is public posting:darkbeer:


----------



## Moon

*I see Woo Daves is associated with the group.*

Interesting


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I guess you missed this link.
> 
> http://vahda.org/about.htm
> 
> The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is a Committee of autonomous organizations and individuals working in conjunction with the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc. a Virginia Political Action Committee registered with the Virginia State Board of Elections. All expenditures and receipts of the organization are reported in accordance with the Code of Virginia (Law). Financial reports are made quarterly and may be viewed at the State Board of Elections web site.:wink:


Working with and owned by are 2 different things. The vice chair and lobbiest for VHDA is also the director for Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc.. Same people wearing a different hat with the same agenda.


----------



## deepzak

ban_t said:


> SB 263
> Retrieving hunting dogs. Summary as introduced: Retrieving hunting dogs. Requires the revocation of the hunting license for the current and the next hunting seasons as well as the forfeiture of the firearm or bow and arrow of any person who is convicted of carrying such weapons on another person's property while he is retrieving his hunting dogs. VHDA STRONGLY OPPOSES. Call your Delegate and request a NO vote on this bill! Passed Senate 38-1, 02/12/08 House: Referred to Committee on Agriculture, Chesapeake and Natural Resources
> 
> Would this not satisfy most Anti dog hound hunters? Just thought I ask:darkbeer: Oh Yeah it's call compromise.


It would sure go a damn long way!!!! 

It's no wonder that VHDA opposes it, it would cause their members to loose money everytime they try to recover their dogs.:wink:


----------



## CJF

Gee I think I know their agenda. They are aligned with Falwell's Moral Majority.

This is off their website.



The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance has adopted a position opposing hunting on Sunday Hunting for many reasons. It is first and foremost an expression of the vast majority of our
membership, even though all may not subscribe to all of the stated reasons in this paper.

1. The first and foremost reason is our faith. The Fourth Commandment is
reason enough to oppose hunting on Sunday. "Remember the Sabbath day
by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the
seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.1 We also recognize that
the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

2. We believe that all can use a day of rest. It is a time to recover and reflect.
You may look for lost dogs or game animals, declared by the law to be
hunting, but the retrieval of lost sheep is consistent with the gospel. We
believe that the hunted also benefit from the day of rest.

3. We believe landowners want a day to rest. To enjoy the quiet of their
property, absent their guests of the rest of the week, no matter how welcome
they may be at other times. Sunday is a day of reflection.

4. We believe that even the most supportive families would benefit from this
positive statement of family values.

5. Other outdoor users appreciate a day to themselves. Without this day, they
may turn against the selfish hunters who demand hunting on Sunday and place
all hunting at risk. Remember all hunting is not done on large private tracts.

6. Virginia has the most generous limits on deer kill of any state in the nation.
No hunter, no matter how they plead otherwise, is so deprived as not to be
able to find an opportunity to hunt during the long seasons. We acknowledge
that some of our number have a limited number of vacation days, but believe
that resulting public opinion would inescapably be negative, and give antihunters
a big hammer to bludgeon us with.

7. Modern wildlife management bases its hunting seasons on range carrying
capacities, species reproductive rates and mortality rates. One significant
factor in determining any hunting season is the number of animals harvested
by hunters. The number of animals harvested by hunters is determined by
man-days a field times the success rate. Most studies have shown that
typically 40% of total man-hours of hunting occur on Saturday. The addition
of Sunday would be certain to require the eventual adjustment of the seasons
for most if not all species that are hunted. This would result in the eventual
shortening of the hunting season.

The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance acknowledges that hunters are coming to Virginia
from other areas having Sunday hunting. Many areas allow other practices that have also
long been against the law in Virginia such as hunting over bait and hunting big game
animals in small enclosures. We see no reason to support hunting on Sunday in the
Commonwealth of Virginia at this time.
1 http://70030.netministry.com/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=34808&columnid=3803


----------



## deepzak

CJF said:


> Gee I think I know their agenda. They are aligned with Falwell's Moral Majority.
> 
> This is off their website.
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance has adopted a position opposing hunting on Sunday Hunting for many reasons. It is first and foremost an expression of the vast majority of our
> membership, even though all may not subscribe to all of the stated reasons in this paper.
> 
> 1. The first and foremost reason is our faith. The Fourth Commandment is
> reason enough to oppose hunting on Sunday. "Remember the Sabbath day
> by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the
> seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.1 We also recognize that
> the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
> 
> 2. We believe that all can use a day of rest. It is a time to recover and reflect.
> You may look for lost dogs or game animals, declared by the law to be hunting, but the retrieval of lost sheep is consistent with the gospel. We
> believe that the hunted also benefit from the day of rest.
> Wouldn't looking for lost dogs (classified as hunting) not only be classified as work, but also illegal since it is "hunting"? Does VHDA also oppose driving to football games (work), NASCAR events (work), operating a buisness (work), mowing the yard (work), need I go on? Why are they not fighting for a ban on fishing on Sundays?
> 
> 3. We believe landowners want a day to rest. To enjoy the quiet of their
> property, absent their guests of the rest of the week, no matter how welcome
> they may be at other times. Sunday is a day of reflection.
> They don't have to let anybody on their land, it's theirs. Unless we're talking about dog chaser, they don't have to pay attention to others property.
> 
> 4. We believe that even the most supportive families would benefit from this
> positive statement of family values.
> What about those without families?
> 
> 5. Other outdoor users appreciate a day to themselves. Without this day, they
> may turn against the selfish hunters who demand hunting on Sunday and place
> all hunting at risk. Remember all hunting is not done on large private tracts.
> They have 255 other days to themselves, unless they are willing to share those with hunters (ie. hunting year round).
> 
> 6. Virginia has the most generous limits on deer kill of any state in the nation.
> No hunter, no matter how they plead otherwise, is so deprived as not to be
> able to find an opportunity to hunt during the long seasons. We acknowledge
> that some of our number have a limited number of vacation days, but believe
> that resulting public opinion would inescapably be negative, and give antihunters
> a big hammer to bludgeon us with.Unlike dog hunting....
> 7. Modern wildlife management bases its hunting seasons on range carrying
> capacities, species reproductive rates and mortality rates. One significant
> factor in determining any hunting season is the number of animals harvested
> by hunters. The number of animals harvested by hunters is determined by
> man-days a field times the success rate. Most studies have shown that
> typically 40% of total man-hours of hunting occur on Saturday. The addition
> of Sunday would be certain to require the eventual adjustment of the seasons
> for most if not all species that are hunted. This would result in the eventual
> shortening of the hunting season.
> It's 40% because Sunday is a non-hunt day.
> The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance acknowledges that hunters are coming to Virginia
> from other areas having Sunday hunting. Many areas allow other practices that have also
> long been against the law in Virginia such as hunting over bait and hunting big game
> animals in small enclosures. We see no reason to support hunting on Sunday in the
> Commonwealth of Virginia at this time.
> 1 http://70030.netministry.com/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=34808&columnid=3803



I have to call into question a group who supposidly touts being for all hunters rights and then come out against something that would benefit ALL hunters. Sunday hunting would only affect those who chose to hunt on Sunday, especially if it is no dogs allowed!:wink:


----------



## Moon

*I'm going to get some duct tape to tape my head up!!*

to keep it from exploding!!

*"3. We believe landowners want a day to rest. To enjoy the quiet of their
property, absent their guests of the rest of the week, no matter how welcome they may be at other times. Sunday is a day of reflection."*

Let ME decide how I want to use MY land 7 days per week PLEASE!!!!!! I can't stand this BS!! That's what this landowner believes!! And I also believe you (Virginia deer chasing Alliance) are full of it (BS that is).


----------



## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> I guess you missed this link.
> 
> http://vahda.org/about.htm
> 
> The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance is a Committee of autonomous organizations and individuals working in conjunction with the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance, Inc. a Virginia Political Action Committee registered with the Virginia State Board of Elections. All expenditures and receipts of the organization are reported in accordance with the Code of Virginia (Law). Financial reports are made quarterly and may be viewed at the State Board of Elections web site.:wink:


I guess YOU forgot this, here is the first line that you posted in this very thread ... 
*"Sportsmen from across Virginia have banded together to form the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance. ( http://vahda.org )*". 
It's very apparent who actually formed the VHDA, as BB pointed out, the real owner's name is at the bottom of each and every one of your website pages.  :tongue:


----------



## deepzak

3sheets,
Hokie won't reply to you It's too inconvenient, and embarassing. You can forget about the "pig slayer" responding, he's too busy trying to find a way to get on the DGIF board.:mg:


----------



## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> I guess YOU forgot this, here is the first line that you posted in this very thread ...
> *"Sportsmen from across Virginia have banded together to form the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance. ( http://vahda.org )*".
> It's very apparent who actually formed the VHDA, as BB pointed out, the real owner's name is at the bottom of each and every one of your website pages.  :tongue:


Whois info for VAHDA.org is CSA. All the same people just posing as something else to to get funds. 

Hokieman and Kirby Burch (CSA) are coonhound buddies.:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

deepzak said:


> 3sheets,
> Hokie won't reply to you It's too inconvenient, and embarassing. You can forget about the "pig slayer" responding, he's too busy trying to find a way to get on the DGIF board.:mg:


Poetic justice would be for the "pig slayer" to be "Woody's" cellmate down the road !! :set1_rolf2:


----------



## Hokieman

http://vahda.org/faqs.htm 

Why do we need another organization? 

The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance (VHDA) was formed as an umbrella organization, part of the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance PAC, to give Virginia Sportsmen a political voice within the law. Many groups came together because many of the"old line established or nationally affiliated organizations" simply were more interested in going along to get along. They did not criticize the DGIF Board or staff when it was needed! Now the DGIF Board has undertaken a dangerous course the Hound Study that they say"Will determine the future of hunting in Virginia"! Virginia’s Sportsmen need a strong voice to tell the bureaucrats and politicians not to tread on our rights! They want their Sportsmen’s organization to be bold defenders of their Heritage not elitists that ignore the hunting traditions that are as old as Virginia herself! 


You have been to the website. I encourage you to look it over more closely.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> http://vahda.org/faqs.htm
> 
> Why do we need another organization?
> 
> The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance (VHDA) was formed as an umbrella organization, part of the Commonwealth Sportsmen’s Alliance PAC, to give Virginia Sportsmen a political voice within the law. Many groups came together because many of the"old line established or nationally affiliated organizations" simply were more interested in going along to get along. They did not criticize the DGIF Board or staff when it was needed! Now the DGIF Board has undertaken a dangerous course the Hound Study that they say"Will determine the future of hunting in Virginia"! Virginia’s Sportsmen need a strong voice to tell the bureaucrats and politicians not to tread on our rights! They want their Sportsmen’s organization to be bold defenders of their Heritage not elitists that ignore the hunting traditions that are as old as Virginia herself!
> 
> 
> You have been to the website. I encourage you to look it over more closely.


You're 100% correct. Read the fine print as well. Sometimes they slip little things in there instead of making them plainly visible as well as being upfront about things. But I would expect no less from our white tailed fox chasing friends.

Traditions and so called rights, actually a license to abuse rights, is finally getting looked at. I would be worried too, that is if I was one that relied on abuse of rights to shoot deer. Traditions change. We'll see that in time. They changed for several other states that ran dogs. Expect the same here in time.


----------



## Hokieman

Why not just have annual membership fees?

We established the VHDA in response to the DGIF study on hounds and the general unresponsiveness of DGIF to Sportsmen’s concerns. It was felt that a new organization should not weaken existing groups, but work to strengthen all groups entering an Alliance. No membership fee is required, we ask Alliance groups and clubs to send a donation and provide their mailing list so that we support General Assembly members that are our friends and oppose those that work against out rights. Many clubs and organizations are holding fundraisers locally to help raise money for this Alliance.:mg:


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Why not just have annual membership fees?
> 
> We established the VHDA in response to the DGIF study on hounds and the general unresponsiveness of DGIF to Sportsmen’s concerns. It was felt that a new organization should not weaken existing groups, but work to strengthen all groups entering an Alliance. No membership fee is required, we ask Alliance groups and clubs to send a donation and provide their mailing list so that we support General Assembly members that are our friends and oppose those that work against out rights. Many clubs and organizations are holding fundraisers locally to help raise money for this Alliance.:mg:


Then what is CSA? The real group running VHDA. Why not just have a CSA web site and be done with it? We all know that one huh?


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Why not just have annual membership fees?
> 
> We established the VHDA in response to the DGIF study on hounds and the general unresponsiveness of DGIF to Sportsmen’s concerns. It was felt that a new organization should not weaken existing groups, but work to strengthen all groups entering an Alliance.


Again I repeat ... here first line that you posted in this very thread ... 
*"Sportsmen from across Virginia have banded together to form the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance. ( http://vahda.org )". *

So which one is it, and which one is just a bunch of BS ?? :darkbeer: ukey:


Loosing on that VDGIF Reorg Bill, really musta been a major blow to ya'll, since according to your very own FAQ's that was one of the major reasons for forming the VHDA !! roflmao :59: :nyah:


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## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> Why not just have annual membership fees?
> 
> We established the VHDA in response to the DGIF study on hounds and the general unresponsiveness of DGIF to Sportsmen’s concerns. It was felt that a new organization should not weaken existing groups, but work to strengthen all groups entering an Alliance. No membership fee is required, we ask Alliance groups and clubs to send a donation and provide their mailing list so that we support General Assembly members that are our friends and oppose those that work against out rights. Many clubs and organizations are holding fundraisers locally to help raise money for this Alliance.:mg:


Whose rights? Dog hunters?, or ALL hunters? Friends of the Dog hunters? I have seen who VHDA has given money to, and I have seen how those people, who are supposed to represent their entire constituency, have voted. I know that some of those individuals voted against their constituency.:set1_thinking: Wonder why?


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## Hokieman

deepzak said:


> Whose rights? Dog hunters?, or ALL hunters? Friends of the Dog hunters? I have seen who VHDA has given money to, and I have seen how those people, who are supposed to represent their entire constituency, have voted. I know that some of those individuals voted against their constituency.:set1_thinking: Wonder why?


You should email them and ask them why?


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## deepzak

Hokieman said:


> You should email them and ask them why?


I have, no reply. I can only guess that they have at least 250 reasons. Maybe their mouths are full.:mg::zip:


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## 3sheets

Hokieman said:


> Why not just have annual membership fees?
> 
> We established the VHDA in response to the DGIF study on hounds and the general unresponsiveness of DGIF to Sportsmen’s concerns. It was felt that a new organization should not weaken existing groups, but work to strengthen all groups entering an Alliance. No membership fee is required, we ask Alliance groups and clubs to send a donation and provide their mailing list so that *we support General Assembly members that are our friends and oppose those that work against out rights. *Many clubs and organizations are holding fundraisers locally to help raise money for this Alliance.:mg:


Well, when the "rubber hits the road" (SB263) it looks like Smith is your only friend in the Senate; 38 to 1 is about as close to a shutout as ya can get !! :eek2: :brick:

:idea1: One's gota wonder wut the "book" is for the house vote ?? :gossip: :nixon:


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## BigBirdVA

3sheets said:


> Well, when the "rubber hits the road" (SB263) it looks like Smith is your only friend in the Senate; 38 to 1 is about as close to a shutout as ya can get !! :eek2: :brick:
> 
> :idea1: One's gota wonder wut the "book" is for the house vote ?? :gossip: :nixon:


The need more $$$ to be sent in to CSA, errrr I mean VHDA.


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## 3sheets

Sure don't look like their getting very good "bang for the buck", now does it ?? :darkbeer:


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## 206Moose

Is there an organization to join that is against using dogs to hunt deer?


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## Moon

*I don't know of one YET*

but if relief is not coming soon you can bet that there WILL BE. Property owners teamed with REAL bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters, all pushing for real privacy of private land, would make a formidable group. To date these are the folks and sportsmen that have had their rights sh-- on for years now and it's time for change (and I'm not working as an advisor for Obama)


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## deepzak

Moonkryket said:


> but if relief is not coming soon you can bet that there WILL BE. Property owners teamed with REAL bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters, all pushing for real privacy of private land, would make a formidable group. To date these are the folks and sportsmen that have had their rights sh-- on for years now and it's time for change (and I'm not working as an advisor for Obama)


Moon, lets not forget the firearm hunters who do not hunt with dogs. I have been known to use a modern firearm for deer occationally :embara: but I don't do it infront of dogs:RockOn: . We don't want to exclude a powerful group of allies like a certain "hunter association" we know of.


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## Moon

*You are right*

I also hunt with a rifle a little in one rifle legal county. I should have said "real hunters" period.

BTW, I went to the farm this afternoon to sit on the edge of the field in hopes of seeing a fox or coyote (haven not seen one yet but they have been killed within 3 miles of my place) and guess what?? Yep! Deer chasing dogs were out doing it again


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## deepzak

Moonkryket said:


> I also hunt with a rifle a little in one rifle legal county. I should have said "real hunters" period.
> 
> BTW, I went to the farm this afternoon to sit on the edge of the field in hopes of seeing a fox or coyote (haven not seen one yet but they have been killed within 3 miles of my place) and guess what?? Yep! Deer chasing dogs were out doing it again


You sure it was a deer dog and not a brown and white "coyote":wink: . Deer chasers would never let their hounds out out of season and fox dogs won't chase deer. We all know this 'cuz Hokie has cut and pasted it, so it must be so.  I know how to take care of them "coyotes", think you do to.:zip::wink:

Good "coyote" hunting!


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## coxva

Moonkryket said:


> I also hunt with a rifle a little in one rifle legal county. I should have said "real hunters" period.
> 
> BTW, I went to the farm this afternoon to sit on the edge of the field in hopes of seeing a fox or coyote (haven not seen one yet but they have been killed within 3 miles of my place) and guess what?? Yep! Deer chasing dogs were out doing it again


Wow! I have never seen them still running this late on the property I hunt. The hounds have usually starved or froze to death by now. I have a work party on Sat 01 March. I will take a camera and show what happens to the hounds these hunters claim to care so much about. We have had a mild winter so they are only starving to death if any remain. I am sure the hound hunters will say it is a doctored picture or it doesn't happen or has never happened. They are the good ones and there are only a few bad apples.


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## Hokieman

Hunters express support for hounds
They attend hearing in King William to protect their pastime

Tuesday, Feb 26, 2008 - 12:25 AM 

By LAWRENCE LATANE III
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
KING WILLIAM -- Deer hunters unleashed their support for hounds, and residents took another bite at the pros and cons of motocross racing at a packed public hearing last night.

The crowd numbered in the hundreds and overflowed from the meeting room into the hallways of the King William County administration building.

Deer hunters backed the Board of Supervisors' unanimous resolution in support of hunting with dogs.

The county is the 11th to endorse the pastime, which advocates say is under pressure as suburban development spreads into rural outposts such as King William.

"We need to pass this thing to stay the same so we can continue to do what we've always done," said Mike Turner, one of the legion of hunters wearing blaze orange hats and canvas field coats.

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries launched a study late last fall that is examining hunters' use of hounds in the pursuit of white-tailed deer.

The study has fanned fears that the state may be looking for support to outlaw deer hunting with dogs, but Rich Busch, assistant director of the department's wildlife division, disagrees. "We want to find a way to have hound hunting continue into the foreseeable future," he said in an interview. He did not attend the King William meeting.

Residents also continued the furor for the second monthly meeting in a controversy about motocross motorcycle racing.

Developers tabled a proposal for a 327-acre motocross park in January before it reached the Planning Commission after critics overwhelmed an informal presentation of the plan.

At the time, the proposal called for four tracks and a campground about 5 miles west of Central Garage off state Route 30. The developers say they intend to return with a more palatable proposal, but they have not filed anything yet.

Last night, advocates of a track traded places on the podium with opponents who, so far, have dominated the debate.

"We go motocrossing every weekend," Eli Hopkins told the supervisors. "It's the number one family-oriented sport there is."

But Margo El, who lives near the proposed track site, said she fears racing will destroy her peace and quiet. "I'm used to listening to the birds, the crickets," she said. 
Contact Lawrence Latané III at (804) 333-3461 or [email protected].


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## ban_t

Well you have not responded too anything since post 444 and this is the best you have? :wink: copy paste Well Done!


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## deepzak

I find it extremely amusing that King William County board shuts down a motocross park due to the disturbance that it will cause, but supports the running of dogs eventhough it causes the same type of disturbances.....:set1_thinking:

"We need to pass this thing to stay the same so we can continue to do what we've always done," said Mike Turner, one of the legion of hunters wearing blaze orange hats and canvas field coats.
Here in lies the exact problem. Even admits that they don't want ANY change.


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## Hokieman

*Senator creigh deeds sb263 hound retreving bill*

sb263 is dead - 02/27/08 House: Tabled in Agriculture, Chesapeake and Natural Resources by voice vote


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## rwells

Why will you not answer ban t's questions?


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## deepzak

Just got an email from VDGIF concerning naming the stake holder advisory committee IRT the hound hunting survey. There are 3 deer dog runners,2 fox dog hunters, 1 bear, 1 rabbit hunter, 3 land owners, 2 LEO's, and just 2 non-dog hunters. Seems a little biased toward the deer dog runners if you ask me. I am curious as to why they didn't give equal voice to all parties. I guess that I need to contact them and ask why it seems they tipped the scales in favor of the deer doggers.


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## Hokieman

Stakeholder Advisory Committee
The Stakeholder Advisory Committee (SAC) represents the many values of Virginia's citizens interested in hunting with hounds and will meet several times to learn about the issues, understand the various viewpoints, and consider alternative strategies for addressing the issues identified by the focus groups and through public input. SAC members will maintain communication between the citizen interests they represent and other committee members (as well as the VDGIF). The SAC will provide an opportunity for the many different interests to talk about and understand the views of others and will work with the technical committee to develop sound recommendations to provide diverse opportunities for hunting with hounds in Virginia in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens. SAC members, representing the broad spectrum of stakeholder interests, have been invited to participate by VDGIF and Virginia Tech personnel leading this process.

Committee Member
Stakeholder Type

David Steger
Bear Hound Hunter

Jim Hackett
Deer Hound Hunter

John Payne
Deer Hound Hunter

John Rawls, Jr.
Deer Hound Hunter

Joyce Fendley
Fox Hound Hunter

Lt. Col. Dennis J. Foster
Fox Hound Hunter

Lyndell Price
Raccoon Hound Hunter

Buddy Fowler
Rabbit Hound Hunter

Greg Scheere
Corporate Land Manager, Westvaco

Woody Lipps
Law Enforcement, USFS

Carroll Dickenson
Non-hound Hunter

L. Nick Hall
Non-hound Hunter

Ben Fulton
Private Landowner

David Shelor
Private Landowner

Wilmer Stoneman
Private Landowner and Virginia Federation of Farm Bureaus

Emmett Edmonds
Animal control officer


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## Moon

*No matter how their study shakes out*

I have my game plan starting 08 hunting season.:mad2: I don't expect any measurable positive change to take place that will help protect private land owners' rights but the legislators need to understand we will not leave it alone until the practice of deer chasing with dogs somehow is controlled to a point that deer chasing is done only on the land it is supposed to be and not on others' property where it is unwelcomed. We will continue to demand our privacy rights until we get it and in the meantime, I for one, will make owners of dogs that trample over my property, wish they had not and I will do it legally with no harm done to deer chasing dogs, just the owners' wallets.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Stakeholder Advisory Committee
> The Stakeholder Advisory Committee (SAC) represents the many values of Virginia's citizens interested in hunting with hounds and will meet several times to learn about the issues, understand the various viewpoints, and consider alternative strategies for addressing the issues identified by the focus groups and through public input. SAC members will maintain communication between the citizen interests they represent and other committee members (as well as the VDGIF). The SAC will provide an opportunity for the many different interests to talk about and understand the views of others and will work with the technical committee to develop sound recommendations to provide diverse opportunities for hunting with hounds in Virginia in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens. SAC members, representing the broad spectrum of stakeholder interests, have been invited to participate by VDGIF and Virginia Tech personnel leading this process.
> 
> Committee Member
> Stakeholder Type
> 
> David Steger
> Bear Hound Hunter
> 
> Jim Hackett
> Deer Hound Hunter
> 
> John Payne
> Deer Hound Hunter
> 
> John Rawls, Jr.
> Deer Hound Hunter
> 
> Joyce Fendley
> Fox Hound Hunter
> 
> Lt. Col. Dennis J. Foster
> Fox Hound Hunter
> 
> Lyndell Price
> Raccoon Hound Hunter
> 
> Buddy Fowler
> Rabbit Hound Hunter
> 
> Greg Scheere
> Corporate Land Manager, Westvaco
> 
> Woody Lipps
> Law Enforcement, USFS
> 
> Carroll Dickenson
> Non-hound Hunter
> 
> L. Nick Hall
> Non-hound Hunter
> 
> Ben Fulton
> Private Landowner
> 
> David Shelor
> Private Landowner
> 
> Wilmer Stoneman
> Private Landowner and Virginia Federation of Farm Bureaus
> 
> Emmett Edmonds
> Animal control officer


Got a link to these names on the VDGIF site?

Well it looks like they did pick typical dog chasers. I personally know one of these guys. He's the one that shot the dog because it wouldn't run, trained out of season and ran on lands they did not have a lease or rights to run on. Calls and letters are about to go out.


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## 206Moose

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/hounds/stakeholder-advisory-committee.asp When you cut and paste an entire page from a website you should provide a link to it.


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## BigBirdVA

NTYMADATER said:


> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/hounds/stakeholder-advisory-committee.asp When you cut and paste an entire page from a website you should provide a link to it.


Found it but it was too late to edit my post. Still in shock over finding this individual is actually in the group. Ran out of season on deer EVERY Sunday and a few other days other days during and before bow season. When asked wasn't this a violation of state game laws, "well it's always been done. The state doesn't care". Tradition I guess? A FYI I have emails from him where he says he only trained 3 times illegally on deer out of season one year. He goes on to say the GW was there and said it was ok as well. How's that for an adviser? Here's some advise, never put into print something you don't want repeated later on.


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## Moon

*Why am I not surpised?*

I'm convinced now that private property owners have a long and hard battle ahead of us. Selective game law enforcement must end if landowners are to ever be able to enjoy the privacy of their own property. It's up to us to keep the battle alive if we are to stand a chance in achieving our privacy rights.


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## 3sheets

One sometimes does wonder what the ACLU might happen to think about VA's current "right to retrieve" law and how landowner's rights are being stepped all over, not to mention the Sunday Hunting ban in VA ... the proverbial "double-whammy" if you will !! :wink:

As far as BB's "buddy" being on the "Stakeholder Advisory Committee", that ammo may well be better spent after they came out with their recomendation rather than beforehand. Wouldn't ya just love to have all of those Deer Dog Runners under oath as part of a legal challange to the "right to retrieve" including the "Stakeholder Study Results" if they uphold the current "right to retrieve" law, and then be able to toss that "bombshell" bout BB's "buddy" (along with the supporting email) out on the table ??  
:bounce:


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## BigBirdVA

I and another who witnessed certain illegal acts sent an email to the guy in charge of the committee. Nothing back yet. 

3sheets 2 lines of thought on it. Remove a known bad apple before they add their input or let it ride and use it later. I really don't think there will be a later. Looking at the lineup and stacked deck there may not be anything decided. I'm beginning to see this as more of an act to be able to say " we examined it and we fixed it" when legal problems come up later on when someone challenges it in court as they did in other states. It's going to take an act that can't be influenced by those with a stake in it to correct it - the courts. Too many people in places able to influence the process as it's going now. And if it does come out with a decision it needs change they'll just file it with the pro Sunday hunting report. They're going to keep doing what they do until change is forced on them in some way.


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## Hokieman

Stakeholder Advisory Committee
The Stakeholder Advisory Committee (SAC) represents the many values of Virginia's citizens interested in hunting with hounds and will meet several times to learn about the issues, understand the various viewpoints, and consider alternative strategies for addressing the issues identified by the focus groups and through public input. SAC members will maintain communication between the citizen interests they represent and other committee members (as well as the VDGIF). The SAC will provide an opportunity for the many different interests to talk about and understand the views of others and will work with the technical committee to develop sound recommendations to provide diverse opportunities for hunting with hounds in Virginia in a manner that is fair, sportsmanlike and consistent with the rights of property owners and other citizens. SAC members, representing the broad spectrum of stakeholder interests, have been invited to participate by VDGIF and Virginia Tech personnel leading this process.

Committee Member
Stakeholder Type

David Steger
Bear Hound Hunter

Jim Hackett
Deer Hound Hunter

John Payne
Deer Hound Hunter

John Rawls, Jr.
Deer Hound Hunter

Joyce Fendley
Fox Hound Hunter

Lt. Col. Dennis J. Foster
Fox Hound Hunter

Lyndell Price
Raccoon Hound Hunter

Buddy Fowler
Rabbit Hound Hunter

Greg Scheere
Corporate Land Manager, Westvaco

Woody Lipps
Law Enforcement, USFS

Carroll Dickenson
Non-hound Hunter

L. Nick Hall
Non-hound Hunter

Ben Fulton
Private Landowner

David Shelor
Private Landowner

Wilmer Stoneman
Private Landowner and Virginia Federation of Farm Bureaus

Emmett Edmonds
Animal control officer


=========================================================================



Dear Friends,



This is a most disturbing announcement from the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. There isn't a single legitimate houndsmen club representative on that entire list. One of those named is an alleged dog killer. Another is the Legislative Aide of Delegate Frank Hargrove, who has repeatedly introduced bills for the PETA-wannabe Virginia Voters for Animal Welfare and twice patroned bills that made it possible to kill dogs without criminal penalty. The two red coated MFH types supported HSUS's HB538 anti-dog breeder bill. Many such trail riders call themselves "foxchasers," rather than fox hunters, to avoid the perceived social sigma of the word hunting. Their interest is to separate themselves from any limitations on hound running or right-to-retrieve imposed on non-mounted sportsmen.



The Vice President of the VA Deer Hunters Association is adamantly anti-hound. During the Caroline County focus group meeting, VDHA advocated eliminating all chase training that conflicts with any hunting of turkey, birds, bear or deer, i.e. no outside the pen hound running except during the actual hound hunting seasons. 



Left off this group were people like William "Billy" Bobbitt. Billy's the president of the National Beagle Club of America (NBCA), the AKC parent breed club, also president of the Skyline Kennel Club and a retired public defender from Augusta County. Billy represents a huge Old Dominion hunting dog constituency. Perhaps he knows too much about the law, proper procedures and is overly careful and conscientious for this DGIF Stakeholder Advisory Committee. 



This handpicked group will largely determine how Virginians hunt hounds in the future. Your input and mine through the invited focus group meetings has been buried and will never see the light of day. The HSUS-PETA-DGIF meeting summary also still isn't available, but a Virginia Animal Control Association board member has replaced HSUS-PETA. That's not progress, if you know anything about VACA. 



This roster is the result of months of deliberation and deal cutting. Don't believe for a moment the promises of meaningful future comment opportunities. This deck is stacked. DGIF is exempt from Virginia's Administrative Procedures Act (APA). That law requires open rulemakings, docketed comments, recorded ex parte meeting minutes and a causal relationship between a problem addressed, public comments received and the final rules adopted.



DGIF is spending over $250,000 on this hunting hounds study to set its revised hunting regulations and/or proposed 2009 General Assembly legislation. Its specific basis for this expensive and extremely divisive effort is that 406 complaints about hunting dog owner trespassing were received in a recent period. What DGIF management and board members don't acknowledge publicly is that all hunting complaints logged for the same period totaled 11,355. Not only were the hunting dog owner trespass complaints only 3.5 percent of the total, a substantial number of those were from people that don't understand the existing Code's right-to-retrieve provision and mistakenly complained about unlawful trespass.



ACTION REQUEST

Contact Governor Kaine and your personal General Assembly representatives. Tell them to stop this farce and restructure the Hunting Hounds Stakeholder Advisory Committee to include legitimate hunting dog owner representatives.



To email the Governor, use the form HERE. Ask for a subject-specific response.

Letters and faxes should request the same, subject-specific response.
Governor Timothy M. Kaine 
Patrick Henry Building, 3rd Floor 
1111 East Broad Street 
Richmond, Virginia 23219 
Fax: (804) 371-6351 

Telephone the Governor's office at (804) 786-2211 between 8:30 AM -5:30 PM on weekdays. Interrupt the recorded message by pressing zero (0) and tell the operator you want Governor Kaine to **Restructure the DGIF Hound Study Committee** and why.



For General Assembly contact information, see http://leg1.state.va.us/081/mbr/MBR.HTM



Please forward and cross post widely.



Sincerely,

Bob Kane, President
Virginia Hunting Dog Owners' Association
Chairman Emeritus, Sportsmen and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://vhdoa.uplandbirddog.com http://saova.org


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## BigBirdVA

Hey Hokie, how about I contact VHDA's new bed partner in the defeat of the Sunday hunting bill, the HSUS, and give them the specific info on the dog killer that's turned adviser? Since they're on your side I'm sure they'll use this as a chance to make hunters as well as the VDGIF look good. Sounds like a great plan to make use of your new hunting ally for a good cause.


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## Hokieman

Hey Rick Hutson, How bout you contact your friend in Peta since you are a member and tell them the great news. VHDA or your group Bob Kanes VHDOA had no part in the selection of the advisory committee. It was soley selected by the DGIF BOARD. I don't care who you get removed from it as they don't express the views of the hunting dog commuinty in virginia.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Hey Rick Hutson, How bout you contact your friend in Peta since you are a member and tell them the great news. VHDA or your group Bob Kanes VHDOA had no part in the selection of the advisory committee. It was soley selected by the DGIF BOARD. I don't care who you get removed from it as they don't express the views of the hunting dog commuinty in virginia.


Well I'm not a member no more than you are a member of HSUS. And not a member of any dog chaser group. I've already contacted them and they're going to run it by and see if it's something they wish to pursue. How ironic a dog killer and illegal chaser on the advisory committee? A good old 100% typical dog chaser no one would ever dream of using as the poster boy is one of the chosen ones that's going to advise others on how it should be done? Anyone else see the humor in that?  Of all the people to be picked what are the odds of it being him?


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## rwells

Dang BB I think you got Hokie a little angered LOL.


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## BigBirdVA

rwells said:


> Dang BB I think you got Hokie a little angered LOL.


He's no poker player for sure! I can tell when he gets a little pumped up. He starts adding some sort of personal info in the post like that's supposed to have some effect on the situation. He's quite the noobie. I've had better try before without any success. :wink:


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## Hokieman

The truth is bird man you don't know nothing about me. You didn't tick me off but I felt like if your going to be writing Ol Bill anytime soon. I wanted to show him the real Rick Hutson aka BigBird aka BiggBirdVA aka No Deer Dogs 2009.


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## Moon

*Go to virginia.gov*

and send Tim Kaine an email message to voice your concern about dog owners that kill unwanted dogs and continually chase deer out of season being on the VDGIF advisory committee. I knew all along that the bunch that chase deer were typically law breakers to varying extents but it's even worse than I thought. WRVA radio also has a call-in show to Mr. Kaine from time to time. I'd like to ask him what his thoughts are on deer chasing on that program and also what does he think about the DGIF advisory committee being corrupt.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> The truth is bird man you don't know nothing about me. You didn't tick me off but I felt like if your going to be writing Ol Bill anytime soon. I wanted to show him the real Rick Hutson aka BigBird aka BiggBirdVA aka No Deer Dogs 2009.


Yawn...... truth is I know exactly who you are as well as what you are. I've met you and your kind many times before. And I'm sure I'll meet many more like you.


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## Hokieman

:wink:


----------



## 3sheets

BigBirdVA said:


> How ironic a dog killer and illegal chaser on the advisory committee? A good old 100% typical dog chaser no one would ever dream of using as the poster boy is one of the chosen ones that's going to advise others on how it should be done? Anyone else see the humor in that?  Of all the people to be picked what are the odds of it being him?


They both will probably once again "see the light" and be "walking the straight & narrow" after that Derick Ratcliffe (Hokieman) fellow gets done "coaching" them!! :secret: :wink:

Just like Derick Ratcliffe (Hokieman) did here:
"IF YOUR GOING TO THE DGIF HOUND STUDY MEETINGs DON'T LET THE DGIF COAX YOU INTO TELLING A STORY OF HOW YOU TRESPASS. THEY R USING DECEPTIVE TATICS TO GAIN INFORMATION. WHEN YOU FIRST GO IN THEY WILL HAVE YOU SIGN A WAIVER AND WILL RECORD EVERYTHING SAID TO BE USED LATER TO VALADATE WHY THEY FEEL THEY NEED STRICTER REGULATIONS. DON'T BE A FOOLED. THEY R OUT TO TRICK YOU BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY VALADATED INFORMATION."


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## Thickshaft

So this is where you folks have been hangin out. Just found the site. Does this place have like a Virginia forum section? I see Big birds been slappin that no count non sunday bowhunting dog chasin Hokieman around a little:greenwithenvy: Also some experimentation with icons, hope they work!


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## rwells

Dang Thickshaft I figured you already knew about this place, or would have told you sooner.


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## Thickshaft

Leave it to me Robert to be the last one in line but ready or not here I am. I was wondering why there wasn't as much chatter on the other archery sites? Figured everyone was shed hunting and or getting ready for the spring gobbler. I found a beautiful shed the other day, looks like a typical 10 that may have scored in the 150's if the other side was just like it. Should be a real heart stopper next year. Take care and keep up the good fight! THICKSHAFT


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## BigBirdVA

Ready for this one? My friend called VDGIF on meetings and such and told of the dog killer and chaser out of season that's on the committee. Rick Busch personally calls him back. This is his reply "well most hunters have broken the law at some time and it would probably be good to have one like that on the committee". Save you ink and fingers they just don't get it.


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## deepzak

BigBirdVA said:


> Ready for this one? My friend called VDGIF on meetings and such and told of the dog killer and chaser out of season that's on the committee. Rick Busch personally calls him back. This is his reply "well most hunters have broken the law at some time and it would probably be good to have one like that on the committee". Save you ink and fingers they just don't get it.


Are you serious? He really said that.....?  Like if everyone breaks the law it's OK? If we all commit murder does that make it OK? To justify his being on the committee with a statement like that really explains the email I recieved from him in response to my comments on the committee makeup!


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## BigBirdVA

deepzak said:


> Are you serious? He really said that.....?  Like if everyone breaks the law it's OK? If we all commit murder does that make it OK? To justify his being on the committee with a statement like that really explains the email I recieved from him in response to my comments on the committee makeup!


Yep, I had lunch with the guy who called and he went over his response in detail. Words to the meaning that having a person like that would help with the diversity and allow others to see what they do. Like he's going to go in there and say we shoot dogs if they don't run and I chase illegally out of season.  Still in shock over how out of touch with reality they are. Does explain why VDGIF is still in the dark ages. Yes we all just break the law whenever we feel like it or can get away with it according to him. About over bothering with it. I think it will take a court challenge to make real changes. Next year the hound survey will be over and done and reduced to a link next to the $50,000 Sunday hunting survey. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## deepzak

Sounds like he's basically telling everyone that all those letters that make up words and sentences in the VDGIF regulations book are nothing more than suggestions in stead of rules and laws. Follow them if you feel like it, but if it's too inconvienient, they'll understand.


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## Moon

*Yet is they find a corn cob in the woods*

they'll accuse you of baiting AND give you a ticket. It's called SELECTIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT.


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## vabowhntr

Well, I know I have never had what I would call a positive experience with dog hunters. We have had a number of individuals on our land over the years in Faquier co indicate they are looking for their dogs. I kindly remind them that they have to leave their firearms in their vehicles and can come in on foot, which approx 60% of the time they have been in their trucks or had their guns, or both. Twice I have had individuals threaten me on my own land. Once they were unarmed and I was armed?!? Now we own a large tract in southern VA and have had a group of dog hunters line up on a road on one side of our land and release the dogs on the other side at the end of the county rd. This was fairly common the first couple of years. We even caught one of them on our property waiting for the deer. They just ran across the road and when asked what they were doing on our land said "What are you talking about, we were not on your land". We called the game warden and he handed out tickets for hunting without a license and shooting does on a buck only day and for hunting from a roadway. Didn't stop them, they were back several times after that. We have dogs running almost all of the time now. We even asked one of the local dog runners about it. He said they release them a few weeks before the season to tune them up and make them hungry so they would hunt better. They never seem to remember to pick them up after the season, though. Poor dogs keep showing up at the house trying to get a meal. 
I am a strong supporter of every legal hunting method. My problem is I have yet to run into a group of dog hunters that follows the laws, not just the ones that are convenient for them.


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## deepzak

vabowhntr said:


> Well, I know I have never had what I would call a positive experience with dog hunters. We have had a number of individuals on our land over the years in Faquier co indicate they are looking for their dogs. I kindly remind them that they have to leave their firearms in their vehicles and can come in on foot, which approx 60% of the time they have been in their trucks or had their guns, or both. Twice I have had individuals threaten me on my own land. Once they were unarmed and I was armed?!? Now we own a large tract in southern VA and have had a group of dog hunters line up on a road on one side of our land and release the dogs on the other side at the end of the county rd. This was fairly common the first couple of years. We even caught one of them on our property waiting for the deer. They just ran across the road and when asked what they were doing on our land said "What are you talking about, we were not on your land". We called the game warden and he handed out tickets for hunting without a license and shooting does on a buck only day and for hunting from a roadway. Didn't stop them, they were back several times after that. We have dogs running almost all of the time now. We even asked one of the local dog runners about it. He said they release them a few weeks before the season to tune them up and make them hungry so they would hunt better. They never seem to remember to pick them up after the season, though. Poor dogs keep showing up at the house trying to get a meal.
> I am a strong supporter of every legal hunting method. My problem is I have yet to run into a group of dog hunters that follows the laws, not just the ones that are convenient for them.


My suggestion to you is to get a video camera and catch their actions on tape or digitally and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Also, please do not forget to make reports to VDGIF, as we need to get the numbers up so that they start to believe us.

Just FYI, the law states that they have the right to RETRIEVE, not look for their dogs. If they cannot conclusively prove to you that THEIR dogs are on your property, you do not have to let them enter. Keep us informed, and good luck!


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## coxva

deepzak said:


> My suggestion to you is to get a video camera and catch their actions on tape or digitally and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Also, please do not forget to make reports to VDGIF, as we need to get the numbers up so that they start to believe us.


I think their is no doubt the law and the VDGIF believe us, but I am not sure for what reason they are on the side of the dog chasers. They obviously know there is a problem or they wouldn't have the survey. I hope they shutdown the whole dog chasing practice. If the dog chasers love there dogs so much maybe they can train them to ruin some other sport. How about golf turn the packs loose on the side of the road at a golf course and listen to them run. Teach them to chase golf carts or something....Wonder if they would receive any complaints.


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## BigBirdVA

Using the current dog chasing laws a person could chase hounds onto a golf course and not be in violation. "Prohibited lands" covers a lot of places those without permission aren't typically allowed.


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## deepzak

The point I was trying to get across is that we, as non-hound hunters, or land owners, need to make sure that the complaints are legally registered. Hokieman was on here asking "where are the numbers?", refering to the number of complaints filed with VDGIF. If the numbers match what is actually happening in the field, it can only help us. I know it is a pain in the tushy to make a complaint knowing that nothing will get done, as well as being extremely frustrating but if we don't take the time to do it I fear that things will never change. The dog chasers just have to keep up their "Stupid Act" and they will continue to get away with breaking the law.


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## BigBirdVA

deepzak said:


> The point I was trying to get across is that we, as non-hound hunters, or land owners, need to make sure that the complaints are legally registered. Hokieman was on here asking "where are the numbers?", refering to the number of complaints filed with VDGIF. If the numbers match what is actually happening in the field, it can only help us. I know it is a pain in the tushy to make a complaint knowing that nothing will get done, as well as being extremely frustrating but if we don't take the time to do it I fear that things will never change. The dog chasers just have to keep up their "Stupid Act" and they will continue to get away with breaking the law.


You got it. Every yapping mutt I hear that's not supposed to be there is going to generate a call. They want numbers they'll get 'em this year.

I'm also getting some traps for 'yotes. You know it's part of our tradition.:wink:
You can trap 'yotes 365, just like you can train on foxes 365. I heard a lot of " when the chase begins on prohibited lands..............." on another forum. I think it's not where it begins that counts, it where it ends. I own the end this year. :darkbeer:


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## Moon

*Let us know where we can get coyote traps*

I could use about 20 of them.


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## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> I could use about 20 of them.


Ebay has them a lot. Some of the ACE or mom & pop hardware or feed and seed have them too. Southern States has them. Typically a #3 coil spring or jump is the max size allowed for above water sets. You have a 6.5" limit for jaws for typical dirt K9 sets in VA.. I used 1.5 coil spring traps for fox and never had one get out. You go too big and all you get are feet left behind. And as a land owner you do not need to mark traps either. Catch a few 'yotes and any other K9s running loose and then put a sign up " Trapping in progress" and the word will get out to keep away. Besides it's our tradition, right? :wink:


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=210613&kwtid=204090
Widowmaker lure is supposed to be really good. They claim no canine can resist. We'll see soon enough. I get full access to some new private land this weekend. Looking to lease some more and meet a guy Sunday on it. I'm out of the dog chasing club and over their load of crap.


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## BigBirdVA

Stakeholder Advisory Committee had their first meeting. Didn't see anything on killing dogs and disregard of the present laws on training out of season in there from my friend Jim Hackett. Guess that will be in another meeting. I think it might come up in the one they say the public can attend and comment on. No I'm sure it will come up in that one. Will be interesting to see his response in front of a crowd when it comes up.

http://www.dgif.state.va.us/hunting/hounds/stakeholder-advisory-committee-meeting-summary1.pdf


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## Moon

*When is it coming up?*

I want to be there.


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## deepzak

Me too!


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## Hokieman

I do too!!!


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## 3sheets

Lemme be the 1st to put in a request fer a group picture of all ya'll ! :wink:


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## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> I want to be there.


I think the time frame was August this year. It's in one of the files they have out.


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## Kiyot_Trapper

*Coyote Trapping 101*

Nuisance canine (coyote) trapping in Virginia 101

Trap according to Virginia law. Coyotes can be trapped year-round. For nuisance canines, only use foothold traps without teeth and a jaw spread of 6 1/2 inches or less. Only set traps on your own land - not a legal requirement, but less problems. When trapping on your own land, you do not have to mark the trap with your name and address. Post signs that trapping is being conducted on your land - again, not a legal requirement but may head off legal problems. Identify known canine paths and set numerous legal leghold traps around a large animal carcass. The more traps, the better. Check traps daily - an absolute must and illegal otherwise. It is highly suggested that you maintain a daily log of where and when you set and checked your traps in case you need evidence that you did so. Coyotes caught in your traps will need to be dispatched with a .22 shot to the head and then remove the body from the trap. If, God forbid, you catch one or more hunting dogs, DO NOT kill the dog - this is illegal. DO NOT attempt to remove the dog from the trap or get close to read the collar either - you may get bitten no matter how gentle the dog appears to be. When you get home, call your local Animal Control. Inform them of the situation and request their assistance removing the dog(s) from your trap(s). When Animal Control or other law enforcement eventually shows, take them to the location and stand back while they release the dog(s). Politely answer all questions and, if asked, show them your trapping log that I suggested earlier.

If you are concerned that persons may disturb your traps (for example, to prevent the possibility that their hunting dogs will be trapped, which interferes with your legal right to trap coyotes), I suggest setting a few trailcams. If you catch pictures of someone disturbing your legally set traps, you have evidence of an illegal act. If you happen to catch pictures of a person stuck in a legal trap that was legally set on your own land that was clearly posted to show traps were set, you may want to post the pictures on the Internet for sheer amusement.


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## BigBirdVA

Nice tip on the check log. Also if you're a leasee you do not need to mark the traps.


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