# Rehab the Barebow/Bowhunter styles



## archer_nm

We (NFAA) have an agenda item that will be on the table this Febuary to combine these two styles, this I am sorry to say is needed for survival. There has been a lot of discussion at major shoots pertaining to this and the best way for us to grow is by combining. When you look at our best turnout, Vegas is always the top and there we all shoot together. Talk to your state Directors and let them know your feelings on this issue.


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## Boyd

Known this is coming for some time.

My 2-cents. (I know this will piss some people off but frankly I don’t care. Put on your adult panties and join in) :wink:

The two WILL be combined no matter what is done at the local/state/national level so...
If the barebow shooter gives up the clicker, I, as a bowhunter, will give up the limitation for single string contact point on the string (string walking). As well as the limitation of stabilizer length.
Thus the two classes are combined and we can go forward.

With the bowhunter class being more restricted, there is nothing we have to give up in order to bring parity between the two.
With the elimination of the clicker that WILL be the single most effective way to equalize these classes.

Let the discussion begin.


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## Boyd

Oh... I forgot the new name for the combined classes, BareBowhunter.



Boyd said:


> Known this is coming for some time.
> 
> My 2-cents. (I know this will piss some people off but frankly I don’t care. Put on your adult panties and join in) :wink:
> 
> The two WILL be combined no matter what is done at the local/state/national level so...
> If the barebow shooter gives up the clicker, I, as a bowhunter, will give up the limitation for single string contact point on the string (string walking). As well as the limitation of stabilizer length.
> Thus the two classes are combined and we can go forward.
> 
> With the bowhunter class being more restricted, there is nothing we have to give up in order to bring parity between the two.
> With the elimination of the clicker that WILL be the single most effective way to equalize these classes.
> 
> Let the discussion begin.


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## archer_nm

This is a good start, Boyd don't forget to talk to your Director about what you would like to see
Vegas???


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## Boyd

archer_nm said:


> This is a good start, Boyd don't forget to talk to your Director about what you would like to see
> Vegas???


Will do.


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## grantmac

Scrap both, along with FSL. Finger shooting compounds won't survive once the current competitors stop shooting it. None of the younger generation are interested.

Introduce Recurve Barebow with the exact same rules as World Archery to replace Trad.

-Grant


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## archer_nm

Grant that may be where this ends up when it's all said and done, but I think it may be a few years away.


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## twofinger

Yes the writing has been on the wall for a long time with finger shooting in general. I just started shooting again and I am shooting compound barebow. I love this style. my family and friends all shoot fingers 6 of us. I wish I could say that its going to change but I know different bows are made for release shooters now. I thank the nfaa for hanging on to the finger classes for this long. I hope that putting these classes together will help us keep this going for a few more years.


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## itbeso

archer_nm said:


> Grant that may be where this ends up when it's all said and done, but I think it may be a few years away.


Bob, It doesn't have to be years away. There is no need to slowly get to the end result. I've thought about this a lot and I'm in agreement with Grant that we need to get the styles of shooting in line with the World Archery association and the sooner the better.If that is not possible, I think Boyds recommendation of getting rid of the clicker and combining the classes is the best idea I have heard.


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## archer_nm

Ben, I don't care either way, but as you know you guys and gals need to talk with the Dirrectors and let them know how you would like them to vote or what to put on a 15 signature item as an alternative measure.


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## 2413gary

You guys afraid of a clicker ?


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## screemnjay

As health and participation go, Harmony beats Dissonance. Alignment with the rest of the Archery shooting Earth, makes total sense. If half are happy and half are disgruntled in the end, I'd offer that's a strong indicator or fair decision making.


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## tgross144

I believe that we should get on the same boat as the other archery associations. Trying to remember what is legal and what to practice just take some of the fun out of it.

Tim


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## RCW 24601

I got out of archery some twenty years ago because I did not like the reliance on technology which was taking over the sport. I dropped out of the California Bowman Hunters and NFAA for that reason. I have no right to address the issue of classes, as I am not in organized archery. However, the reason I am not, is that organized archery does not offer me anything now that I want to rejoin. I shot 50% let off with fingers, not well, but had a great time doing it with good friends. Now, I am not wanted by archery. Or so it would seem. Is this the work of the archery industry, or our modern world's need to find the path of least resistance? I just want to shoot and have fun. But competition, even if I did not win, was great. I guess I will die out with the old breed, perhaps before I even get restarted. I leave with this thought from Aldo Leopold, edited to apply to target archery, as it was originally more about hunting. "Our tools...improve faster than we do, and sportsmanship is the voluntary limitation in the use of those armaments."


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## archer_nm

RCW please elaborate on what it would take to get you back in the NFAA and competition


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## twofinger

rcw, could not said it better myself. I live close to st. louis and at one time target archery was pretty good around here and with that we had a good group of finger shooters\barebow. My pastor told me 25 years ago that finger shooting would become a thing of the past because of the release aid another thing he was right about.
If i had a vote i would join barebow\bowhunter together but i would also look into the recurve barebow class and like was mentioned earlier develop the same rules as fita. at leagues i am working with a young man shooting barebow i hope as always that he would stick with it but i am no longer a dreamer. i Will shoot barebow even if there is no longer a class for me i all ways got my back yard!


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## archer_nm

Two finger, we need folks just like you and RCW to help with the transformation if there is one and to regrow the finger class? I have been at this for over 37 years and refuse to give up, it is a uphill battle at times but I will not stop trying.


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## twofinger

Bob,
My thoughts exactly, i know i live in the past alot but years ago there where 4 of us that shot bare bow in st. louis and there where 4 guys in kansas city that shot bowhunter at the state shoot one year we would shoot bowhunter and the next they would shoot barebow we did that for a few years it was fun. i am hopeing to be able to join the nfaa next year finances just won't alow it right now. i am always the voice at the archery shop begging people to sign up for a target league. i will contact the state rep and voice my opinions. i'm with boyd for the sake of non sight in general lets get this done and keep this style alive. And again thanks to the nfaa in keeping finger classes open.


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## RCW 24601

Bob, 
To your question: I would get back into archery if there was an active field course in my area, and if shooting a compound bow with fingers was not thought of as quaint. My local archery stores offer me what to my eye look like vertical crossbows and maybe one or two recurves. Nothing against the stores, or their friendly staff, they have to sell what the manufactures make, and the public asks for. I want to shoot a bow before buying it, and my only option of ordering a used bow off the internet gives me pause. So having "finger" bows at archery stores would help me, if not the owners. I started archery when the compound was but a gleam in Mr. Allen's eye, so I am a cornucopia of opinion, if not an accredited spokesperson. If you think it would help, I would be happy to communicate with you off-line, sparing the general public my tirades. I hope for the better, but, like Mr. Fezziwig, "I'll have to be loyal to the old ways, and die out with them if needs must."


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## rsarns

Bob,
I agree with Boyd here, ditch the clicker and put the two classes together. However, I am absolutely for the BB recurve class, get rid of the TRAD and Longbow classes and add BB recurve. I'll talk to you later (Vegas) about some other issues I am having in regards to the NFAA. Why get rid of Longbow? At the recent Outdoor Nat's of the male classes I was the only one (seniors) that had another competitor even though several LB shooters vowed to go. AT the Indoor Nat's there were 2 in adult and 2 in senior? If by next year this has not changed it should go away.


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## 2413gary

I know this will be hard to believe but I'm lost here does World Archery have a Compound Barebow class?


itbeso said:


> The top archery organization in the world, World archery, does not allow using a clicker in their barebow class. I thought the purpose here was to bring the archery organizations rules under one umbrella.. You argue that eliminating the clicker will erode the barebow support but you are willing to throw all the bowhunters under the bus who don't or don't want to use a clicker. I think there has to be give and take


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## twofinger

I have been watching that thread and its not just about recurves there is also kids shooting genesis bows too. I say grab um and show them how shooting non sight is a blast! and I am shooting in the Illinois target archery state indoor in February they are affiliated with usa archery its a senior compound barebow class right now but if the kids in joad keep going maybe the class would be open to the younger adults. I'm hoping


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## itbeso

2413gary said:


> I know this will be hard to believe but I'm lost here does World Archery have a Compound Barebow class?


World archery has barebow recurve, Olympic, and compound. Three styles and lots of interest in each.


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## 2413gary

Still confused is World Archery and NAA the same?


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## itbeso

2413gary said:


> Still confused is World Archery and NAA the same?


There is no longer an Naa.


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## Supermag1

Since we're getting off topic a bit, I'll follow that path too. Maybe we need to get a few more NFAA coaches that understand barebow and compound limited shooting. We all know just how dang frustrating barebow can be when starting out, especially without someone around that understands the frustrations first hand. I've seen kids that want to shoot barebow struggle and try to help but when the support system at home's answer is to put on sights and a release to end the struggle (which works), a few minutes of help can't compete.

In all reality, the best source of barebow shooters is going to be the traditional guys that physically can't shoot trad equipment anymore but want to stick to fingers and instinctive.


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## Boyd

It’s a *Christmas Miracle * :teeth:



2413gary said:


> Boyd and Ben on the same side I am impressed !


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## wa-prez

Boyd said:


> That sounds fine for now. Go ahead and combine both BB & BH by making them align with the BH rules.


When you say it that way "align with the BH rules" you haven't actually COMBINED BB and BH, you have eliminated BB as we know it. If you use a clicker, or long stabilizer, or string walk, you couldn't shoot in this style as the BH rules prohibit those methods.

If you want to COMBINE the two styles, you'd need to use the BB rules, as they are less restrictive.


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## zestycj7

From what I get out of the whole thing is that most ppl want to get rid of the non-sight finger compound class.
WA does not have this class.
So, all of us that shoot this style are forced to drop out of comps. or start shooting recurves, this blows.
I guess I stop shooting comps.
Don.


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## 2413gary

Hopefully just the oppsite WA has different rules but this Petition is for NFAA only. The Barebow / Bowhunter Divisions still have a lot of life left. The numbers are still there for a great class we just need to combine them. The east coast has a large following of Barebow Stringwalkers The west coast is just the oppsite with a bunch of Bowhunters. The top shooters still shoot the same scores weather it is BB or BH. The NASP is teaching kids nonsight finger shooting nonsight is not DEAD just spread out. Don its kind of like being a Cowboy the cattle are just spread out we need to round them up.
Gary


zestycj7 said:


> From what I get out of the whole thing is that most ppl want to get rid of the non-sight finger compound class.
> WA does not have this class.
> So, all of us that shoot this style are forced to drop out of comps. or start shooting recurves, this blows.
> I guess I stop shooting comps.
> Don.


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## archer_nm

Ttt


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## screemnjay

zestycj7 said:


> From what I get out of the whole thing is that most ppl want to get rid of the non-sight finger compound class.
> WA does not have this class.
> So, all of us that shoot this style are forced to drop out of comps. or start shooting recurves, this blows.
> I guess I stop shooting comps.
> Don.


Don, I believe, the death of compound Barebow will be relative to the lack of new, attractive, finger appropriate product. The trend has already started and doesn't look to change. The new, young, currently developing shooters will want affordable, current product. They won't be interested in rehabbing circa 1990's gear. 

I'd guess the only reason Hoyt has a fingers bow now, is the association with Chuck Adams.


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## Boyd

wa-prez said:


> When you say it that way "align with the BH rules" you haven't actually COMBINED BB and BH, you have eliminated BB as we know it. If you use a clicker, or long stabilizer, or string walk, you couldn't shoot in this style as the BH rules prohibit those methods.
> 
> If you want to COMBINE the two styles, you'd need to use the BB rules, as they are less restrictive.


wa-prez,

The more we here on this site, as well as other sources of archery information, chat about issues that are important to us the better. Having said that, its great to get your input. However, if you are going to post something as a quote of mine please include the entire meaning of the quote so as to not loose the meaning of the quote.
The below is the complete quote of mine.


> That sounds fine for now. Go ahead and combine both BB & BH by making them align with the BH rules. :wink:


The wink at the end of my quote should have shown that what I was saying was to be taken as not being serious.
But you did hit the very core of what I’m trying to get across by your concern about not wanting to eliminate the BB class.
I do not want to eliminate the BH class either. What you and I are trying to say is WE (both you and I) do not want to loose the class as love. Believe me, I get it, AND I’m in total agreement.

But, something will occur very soon that WILL have an impact on one, if not both, classes. I do not find it acceptable to completely eliminate the BH class and leave the BB class alone. That is wrong at every level.

So, for total clarification, I agree with you about not wanting to eliminate the BB class.
I just hope you are in total agreement with me about not wanting to eliminate the BH class.
I do believe that there is a way that these two classes can be combined. But it will take a compromise to make it happen.


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## itbeso

Boyd said:


> wa-prez,
> 
> The more we here on this site, as well as other sources of archery information, chat about issues that are important to us the better. Having said that, its great to get your input. However, if you are going to post something as a quote of mine please include the entire meaning of the quote so as to not loose the meaning of the quote.
> The below is the complete quote of mine.
> 
> 
> The wink at the end of my quote should have shown that what I was saying was to be taken as not being serious.
> But you did hit the very core of what I’m trying to get across by your concern about not wanting to eliminate the BB class.
> I do not want to eliminate the BH class either. What you and I are trying to say is WE (both you and I) do not want to loose the class as love. Believe me, I get it, AND I’m in total agreement.
> 
> But, something will occur very soon that WILL have an impact on one, if not both, classes. I do not find it acceptable to completely eliminate the BH class and leave the BB class alone. That is wrong at every level.
> 
> So, for total clarification, I agree with you about not wanting to eliminate the BB class.
> I just hope you are in total agreement with me about not wanting to eliminate the BH class.
> I do believe that there is a way that these two classes can be combined. But it will take a compromise to make it happen.


Hear, Hear, final closing argument was just presented.


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## Boyd

itbeso said:


> Hear, Hear, final closing argument was just presented.


Again, me and Ben on the same page??? I’m numb with excitement. :jaw: :mg: :smile::teeth::shade::banana::RockOn:

But seriously, for me, and I think for you too Ben, this passion for the BH comes from years worth of knowing the complete ins & outs of this division. Who I learned from, Frank McCubbins not only poured his knowledge on this style of shooting but the full package of the BH division. For that I will be eternally grateful. I love the heritage behind the great Men & Women of the BH class. To let the BH class die without keeping some of what built this most excellent class would be a complete disgrace to those folks.


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## grantmac

Will it be any less dead when nobody is still shooting it?
What about the internationally recognized class for this style of shooting that is not being offered within the NFAA?

Keeping a class on life support for perhaps a dozen shooters is wasting resources that could be used to promote classes which are actually popular somewhere besides isolated parts of the country.

Grant


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## 2413gary

Grant what internationally recognized class do you mean and what resources are we wasting ?


grantmac said:


> Will it be any less dead when nobody is still shooting it?
> What about the internationally recognized class for this style of shooting that is not being offered within the NFAA?
> 
> Keeping a class on life support for perhaps a dozen shooters is wasting resources that could be used to promote classes which are actually popular somewhere besides isolated parts of the country.
> 
> Grant


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## itbeso

grantmac said:


> Will it be any less dead when nobody is still shooting it?
> What about the internationally recognized class for this style of shooting that is not being offered within the NFAA?
> 
> Keeping a class on life support for perhaps a dozen shooters is wasting resources that could be used to promote classes which are actually popular somewhere besides isolated parts of the country.
> 
> Grant


Grant, I understand where you are coming from on the barebow recurve thing but I think you are underestimating the archers who support those classes( bb&bh). It doesn't matter whether they are popular in isolated parts of this country or in the whole country, they are being perpetuated for a reason. For a long time now, the manufacturers and industry have been trying to get rid of the nonsight and finger classes, ( not enough accessories in those classes to make money off of ). All marketing is directed towards compounds, releases,short, fast bows and instant gratification, but sooner or later, a lot of those archers come into contact with archers doing the sport in the old ways and actually get to experience , first hand , what the romance of archery is all about. I see a renewed interest and a real growth in archers getting back to the roots of the sport here in the U.S. I don't think it is feasible to drop the compound nonsight shooters at this time but I do think it is feasible to put all recurvers under one roof to have a class that complys with the rest of the worlds nonsight shooters


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## BigCnyn

Its a monetary driven sport. 
Retailers build bows for the masses. Those masses are time driven. Shooters no longer (in general) do not put the time in to become proficient in the world of BB.
I want to hunt tomarrow. So how can I get good enough to go out. Releases and sights.
Those shooters that in which class we want to play in are for the most part older through the kill everything we see. We have killed all we need to, we can kill animals now if we want to.
We have settled into the Love of just shooting. Making the perfect shot everytime.
Our group will continue to stay at about the numbers we are, and slowly dwindle out, as society has changed .. get it quick..get it easy.. We cannot change the future. All things change.


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## screemnjay

The beginning of this discussion is, the proposal, as written. A proposal that is a good idea, and a start. 

The additional discussion is, where do we subsequently, go from there, in the future. My suggestion is a separation of Compound and Recurve. The Recurve class morphs into the WA format, the Compounds with BH ltd. The Barebow Compounds, in that new class, keep the stabilizer in lieu of the five fixed pin sight.

Everyone then gets to continue to shoot and participate. In the end, change is in order and overdue.


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## BigCnyn

And what I am saying is this...
our class will phase completely out.
I shoot Recurve BB, I DO NOT want to shoot with guys with sights, I just wont go and compete. I will shoot with any compound BB class on the planet. I will end up just completely out of Nfaa
-Ifaa- competition ... not my bag.. I will join and shoot IBO recurve -unaided...
Brian Morris


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## RCW 24601

If there were an NFAA field course in my area I would already be a member. There is a private IBO course, which I will try this spring. I bowhunted as an extention of being a target archer. Today, bowhunting drives people's interest. My son called me a fuddy-duddy because I can not embrace what passes for archery today. I do not think I can shoot much over thirty-five pounds with a stick bow without snap shooting. I need 40 for deer 50 for elk. If I had that field course, I might dust off the 70" Del Ray I have retired with honor on my den wall. I do not have a vote, but I would embrace anyone shooting any style with fingers, and if need be, shoot in flights. Some guys shoot clickers because of target panic. A friend of mine shot the thermostat at the end of his hall when his clicker went off when practicing aiming. Long stabilizers are for leaning on when scoring. I wonder how the modern compound shooters will respond when the industry forces the crossbow on them? Just a thought.


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## wa-prez

BigCnyn said:


> And what I am saying is this...
> our class will phase completely out.
> I shoot Recurve BB, I DO NOT want to shoot with guys with sights, I just wont go and compete. I will shoot with any compound BB class on the planet. I will end up just completely out of Nfaa
> -Ifaa- competition ... not my bag.. I will join and shoot IBO recurve -unaided...
> Brian Morris


Recurve Barebow can register as Traditional in NFAA events. So you don't have to compete against compounds.


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## archer_nm

Ok you have a little over 1 month before the meeting and you need to tell your Directors how you want them to vote or modify the agenda Item as needed. The styles in question are dying on the vine and we need to come up with a solution for survival for the finger shooters, there have been some very good suggestions and comments on this thread. Keep them coming and make sure you talk to your Directors on what you want to come out of all of this.


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## Supermag1

Just got done emailing my Director. Basically told him I'm for the combination and then my feelings about other changes if amendments are offered concerning clickers, stabilizers, and string/face walking.


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## grantmac

wa-prez said:


> Recurve Barebow can register as Traditional in NFAA events. So you don't have to compete against compounds.


You most certainly cannot, and that is the most critical point of the whole conversation. There are excellent Rec BB shooters who have no interest in the NFAA simply because they don't have a category to shoot in.
Compound BB and BH are pretty much a show-up and win situation in almost every state except perhaps California and maybe a few back East. 

All compounds should shoot the same class, just like WA rules. If you want to be competitive with non-sight and fingers then shoot a recurve, seems simple enough.

3 classes:
Rec BB
Rec Freestyle
Compound


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## BigCnyn

So not true...wa-prez
I cant put a long stabilizer and v-bar on my recurve and shoot trad....
I have done that and won the NW sectional in BB, Not trad.


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## 2413gary

Why make a nonsight compound shoot against a sight shooter but let recurve shooters have a break come on if your going to be a bear be a Grizzly LOL


grantmac said:


> You most certainly cannot, and that is the most critical point of the whole conversation. There are excellent Rec BB shooters who have no interest in the NFAA simply because they don't have a category to shoot in.
> Compound BB and BH are pretty much a show-up and win situation in almost every state except perhaps California and maybe a few back East.
> 
> All compounds should shoot the same class, just like WA rules. If you want to be competitive with non-sight and fingers then shoot a recurve, seems simple enough.
> 
> 3 classes:
> Rec BB
> Rec Freestyle
> Compound


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## BigCnyn

I do not think that non sight should ever compete with any sight......
Recurve or compound....

It will eventually eliminate non sight.
my advantage to shoot sights.... period
just like wheels did to archery years ago..recurve sights could not compete with wheels..


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## 2413gary

Ok I got off track this thread is about NFAA Barebow and Bowhunter in the Compound division it does not concern WA. or IFAA only NFAA.
Gary


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## BigCnyn

I got off track...
Bowhunter class is... compound no sights 12 inch stabilizer...
bb class long bar no sights strong walk, face walk
Trad no bar. Recurve

all shot with Fingers

I will compete with any of the above....

No sights with No sight !!!!

Thanks Dan Kolb...


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## BigCnyn

Sounds to me like they...... u Bob are trying to eliminate Bowhunter and Bowhunter limited.
there then would be only bowhunter freestyle.. releases and sights.. There will not be any change in BB long bars , no sights? Correct?
No finger classed except "Trad" and BB correct...

Not cool .....


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## screemnjay

Recognizing that this is a deviation from the proposal and this threads intent, my thoughts with regards to class consolidation...

BB/Bowhunter = config #1: 5 fixed pins + 12 in. Stabilizer
config #2: non sight + any stabilizer and v-bar + clicker under the arrow, stringwalking allowed
All shot with fingers

Recurve = no sight, 4 in circle, stringwalking allowed, under the arrow clicker
FS Recurve = WA/FITA bow.


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## grantmac

2413gary said:


> Why make a nonsight compound shoot against a sight shooter but let recurve shooters have a break come on if your going to be a bear be a Grizzly LOL


Yep.
Then the nonsight people will shoot recurves, like WA.

Writing is on the wall for compound fingers. Recurves are gaining popularity. Doesn't take much to see where the smart move it.

Jay:
Ditch the clicker for Rec BB. That would perfectly align it with WA, which is where it should be.


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## screemnjay

grantmac said:


> Yep.
> Then the nonsight people will shoot recurves, like WA.
> 
> Writing is on the wall for compound fingers. Recurves are gaining popularity. Doesn't take much to see where the smart move it.
> 
> Jay:
> Ditch the clicker for Rec BB. That would perfectly align it with WA, which is where it should be.


Grant, you're right, however, I am choosing to be a Politician. That is phase II of my diabolical scheme.


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## DebraRose

There seems to be some peer pressure here to conform to styles of archery based upon perceived popularity.
Naturally, there won’t be as many Barebow Compound archers because it isn’t easy, and it also isn’t easy to withstand constant suggestions from the majority to add after market accessories.

If I wanted to use a mechanical release and pull a trigger, I’d get my gun. It seems more like archery, with fingers. I like my hand on the string, not some device.
I now have a new Hoyt recurve, because some tournaments throw me in with the compounds using sights and scopes, and score the outer 10 ring as a 9. This weekend will be my first competition using the recurve. 
It’s an enjoyable bow, in a different way than my Hoyt compound. It takes more muscle. Aim and release is quicker, since I can’t stand there all day thinking about it, second guessing myself. That doesn’t mean I want to give up the power of the compound, or speed. To reach the center holding either, is an accomplishment.

Some people start out Barebow, as affordable first step. Others try all the gear and gadgets, then go minimalist. My reasons were practical. Without the training to know how to adjust sensitive settings, or the right tools, or a handy pit crew/caddie standing by every time I want to fling arrows, it was simpler to take the path less traveled. 
It may be a longer learning curve. It’s taken a couple of years but I’m living proof the classification is not dead, just too easily dismissed. 
Everywhere I go, people ask about it, want to know more about how it is done. Recently, I renewed my coaching certification, to become a Barebow evangelist, with any bow. 

The first time I showed up to shoot Barebow at Las Vegas, a Canadian with a recurve said he was not happy to be in the same category as a compound. I told him I wasn’t thrilled to be in the same category as people a foot taller and able to pull much more weight, yet, here we are. 

After I won Female Barebow Indoor Championship last year in Louisville there were snarky remarks about how easy that is, being the only one in that age group. The 274 I shot, then did it again the next day, was higher than the more populated group. If I’d combined it would have taken a bowl from one of the younger ladies. Is it really an NFAA agenda item to stick us in with pins?

I don’t use a clicker, but see no reason to begrudge anyone else making that choice.
Having a bow balanced to your physicality is not an unfair advantage. Why is there so much attention to how many inches long your stabilizer is? 
There’s another generation of archers coming. Many of them will get tracked into tricked out bows to shoot fish in a barrel at 20 yards. Some will follow Olympic dreams, more power to them. 
It would be short sighted to eliminate the other classes, and lose the skills to develop that form. Eliminate some age groups, if this is about saving money on trophies and trinkets. Scrap that, and go forward. It is hyperbole to carry on dramatically about the “Survival” of the association hinging upon the elimination of minority styles. Archers shouldn’t have to fill the room to have a place at the table. We’re not selling sugar water with test group marketers dropping flavors due to low sales figures. 

Thank you for this opportunity to express my first comment and opinion in this forum. The state of the union of Barebow and Bowhunter overcame my preference to just scan and glean. If One World Archery New Orders go into effect everywhere, hello and goodbye, I’ll start my own sovereign guild. These boots were made for string walking.


----------



## screemnjay

DebraRose said:


> There seems to be some peer pressure here to conform to styles of archery based upon perceived popularity.
> Naturally, there won’t be as many Barebow Compound archers because it isn’t easy, and it also isn’t easy to withstand constant suggestions from the majority to add after market accessories.
> 
> If I wanted to use a mechanical release and pull a trigger, I’d get my gun. It seems more like archery, with fingers. I like my hand on the string, not some device.
> I now have a new Hoyt recurve, because some tournaments throw me in with the compounds using sights and scopes, and score the outer 10 ring as a 9. This weekend will be my first competition using the recurve.
> It’s an enjoyable bow, in a different way than my Hoyt compound. It takes more muscle. Aim and release is quicker, since I can’t stand there all day thinking about it, second guessing myself. That doesn’t mean I want to give up the power of the compound, or speed. To reach the center holding either, is an accomplishment.
> 
> Some people start out Barebow, as affordable first step. Others try all the gear and gadgets, then go minimalist. My reasons were practical. Without the training to know how to adjust sensitive settings, or the right tools, or a handy pit crew/caddie standing by every time I want to fling arrows, it was simpler to take the path less traveled.
> It may be a longer learning curve. It’s taken a couple of years but I’m living proof the classification is not dead, just too easily dismissed.
> Everywhere I go, people ask about it, want to know more about how it is done. Recently, I renewed my coaching certification, to become a Barebow evangelist, with any bow.
> 
> The first time I showed up to shoot Barebow at Las Vegas, a Canadian with a recurve said he was not happy to be in the same category as a compound. I told him I wasn’t thrilled to be in the same category as people a foot taller and able to pull much more weight, yet, here we are.
> 
> After I won Female Barebow Indoor Championship last year in Louisville there were snarky remarks about how easy that is, being the only one in that age group. The 274 I shot, then did it again the next day, was higher than the more populated group. If I’d combined it would have taken a bowl from one of the younger ladies. Is it really an NFAA agenda item to stick us in with pins?
> 
> I don’t use a clicker, but see no reason to begrudge anyone else making that choice.
> Having a bow balanced to your physicality is not an unfair advantage. Why is there so much attention to how many inches long your stabilizer is?
> There’s another generation of archers coming. Many of them will get tracked into tricked out bows to shoot fish in a barrel at 20 yards. Some will follow Olympic dreams, more power to them.
> It would be short sighted to eliminate the other classes, and lose the skills to develop that form. Eliminate some age groups, if this is about saving money on trophies and trinkets. Scrap that, and go forward. It is hyperbole to carry on dramatically about the “Survival” of the association hinging upon the elimination of minority styles. Archers shouldn’t have to fill the room to have a place at the table. We’re not selling sugar water with test group marketers dropping flavors due to low sales figures.
> 
> Thank you for this opportunity to express my first comment and opinion in this forum. The state of the union of Barebow and Bowhunter overcame my preference to just scan and glean. If One World Archery New Orders go into effect everywhere, hello and goodbye, I’ll start my own sovereign guild. These boots were made for string walking.


Ever seen "Fiddler On The Roof"?

I'd venture a guess, there isn't a Compound Barebow 'hater' on this thread. The unfortunate reality is, not only is there documented dwindling numbers of Compound Finger and Barebow shooters, the Industry is choosing to abandon the gear necessary to do so. It's a lot easier for a short draw Archer to adapt a portion of the current compound gear, than one who is 28 inches plus. I've seen the derailments and it's not pretty. On the other hand, Barebow Recurve, and Trad, are infinitely healthier and accessible from both a gear and participation stand point. Search the Internet. Compare the Two and it's not easy to conclude not only where things are headed, but, where they are.

The Archers who want/choose to participate in Compound Barebow aren't leading to its demise, it's the Industry, and the Archers who don't. Look at the numbers, Compound Barebow, while not quite Brain Dead, is on Life Support. It's not likely to awaken. It's only chance would appear to be the current group of youth Archers who actually have gear, but issues with organized representation. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2152831

Welcome to versions of the Trad World. It's a decision I also had to make (if I wanted to shoot with anybody). 
Kinky Boots eh?


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## 2413gary

Grant I think you are missing the point you talk about recurve BB shooters that won't join NFAA because there is no class for them. Then you throw the compound nonsight shooters under the buss. I guarantee there are more nonsight compound than recurve stringwalkers in the USA. There needs to be a place for all nonsight shooters.


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## itbeso

DebraRose said:


> There seems to be some peer pressure here to conform to styles of archery based upon perceived popularity.
> Naturally, there won’t be as many Barebow Compound archers because it isn’t easy, and it also isn’t easy to withstand constant suggestions from the majority to add after market accessories.
> 
> If I wanted to use a mechanical release and pull a trigger, I’d get my gun. It seems more like archery, with fingers. I like my hand on the string, not some device.
> I now have a new Hoyt recurve, because some tournaments throw me in with the compounds using sights and scopes, and score the outer 10 ring as a 9. This weekend will be my first competition using the recurve.
> It’s an enjoyable bow, in a different way than my Hoyt compound. It takes more muscle. Aim and release is quicker, since I can’t stand there all day thinking about it, second guessing myself. That doesn’t mean I want to give up the power of the compound, or speed. To reach the center holding either, is an accomplishment.
> 
> Some people start out Barebow, as affordable first step. Others try all the gear and gadgets, then go minimalist. My reasons were practical. Without the training to know how to adjust sensitive settings, or the right tools, or a handy pit crew/caddie standing by every time I want to fling arrows, it was simpler to take the path less traveled.
> It may be a longer learning curve. It’s taken a couple of years but I’m living proof the classification is not dead, just too easily dismissed.
> Everywhere I go, people ask about it, want to know more about how it is done. Recently, I renewed my coaching certification, to become a Barebow evangelist, with any bow.
> 
> The first time I showed up to shoot Barebow at Las Vegas, a Canadian with a recurve said he was not happy to be in the same category as a compound. I told him I wasn’t thrilled to be in the same category as people a foot taller and able to pull much more weight, yet, here we are.
> 
> After I won Female Barebow Indoor Championship last year in Louisville there were snarky remarks about how easy that is, being the only one in that age group. The 274 I shot, then did it again the next day, was higher than the more populated group. If I’d combined it would have taken a bowl from one of the younger ladies. Is it really an NFAA agenda item to stick us in with pins?
> 
> I don’t use a clicker, but see no reason to begrudge anyone else making that choice.
> Having a bow balanced to your physicality is not an unfair advantage. Why is there so much attention to how many inches long your stabilizer is?
> There’s another generation of archers coming. Many of them will get tracked into tricked out bows to shoot fish in a barrel at 20 yards. Some will follow Olympic dreams, more power to them.
> It would be short sighted to eliminate the other classes, and lose the skills to develop that form. Eliminate some age groups, if this is about saving money on trophies and trinkets. Scrap that, and go forward. It is hyperbole to carry on dramatically about the “Survival” of the association hinging upon the elimination of minority styles. Archers shouldn’t have to fill the room to have a place at the table. We’re not selling sugar water with test group marketers dropping flavors due to low sales figures.
> 
> Thank you for this opportunity to express my first comment and opinion in this forum. The state of the union of Barebow and Bowhunter overcame my preference to just scan and glean. If One World Archery New Orders go into effect everywhere, hello and goodbye, I’ll start my own sovereign guild. These boots were made for string walking.


As is your wont to do, you have misread the sentiments posted on this thread. No one is advocating phasing out non sight shooting. Some have the opinion we are on the way out, but the overwhelming majority are on track for coming up with rules to combine the bowhunter class with the barebow class to make a stronger contingent of non sight shooters. Nowhere has it been suggested that we shoot against sight shooters. There is also an advocacy to streamline the recurve classes into one class that mirrors the barebow class that world archery has to bring us in line with the rest of the world. Both of these scenarios should make you happy.


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## archer_nm

Folks please take another look at,the agenda item it is to combine the Compound BB and BH styles (both non-sight) there is nothing about the recurve shooters in either agenda items. I can hear some of you right now "Not my style" well in case some don't know, I am talking about MY STYLE. I have shot as a Bowhunter for almost 40 years and I am sad that this is what we are facing but I realize that we are watering down what the awards mean by only having a couple of shooters at most shoots and if we give out a bowl at nationals for only 2 or 3 shooters then how hard is it to be a National Champion, at an earlier time in my life when you won a Silver Bowl you were a big deal and people looked up to you. Now it hardly means a thing, at Vegas in 2013 I brought this up and asked all of the shooters in the BB division (which included about 15 Bowhunters) to go out and talk to people they shot with to see if they would agree with combining them 2 styles, most of the shooters I talked to had no problem and agreed that WE needed to do something. So that is an explanation and some of the history of what I am attempting to do, an amendment could be this would only be for Sectional and National Shoots at least for a year or two. Rembering that our biggest turn outs are Vegas and Redding where we already shoot together. I hope that this sheds some light on this issue.


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## DebraRose

Mr. Borges, you didn’t ask “all” the Barebow shooters at Vegas 2013. I was there, and we didn’t have that conversation. 
Vegas Bowhunters Rules limit the anchor point and finger location. Some Bowhunter Rules specify stabilizer length. That’s why I didn’t sign up in that category, and would prefer the distinction between the two remain. 
How gallant of you to state that my recent silver bowl “hardly means a thing” . 
My competition was against the target, and a 274, my style, is not “watered down”. 
Historically, there certainly is a tradition of some people not feeling like a winner unless they beat someone and make them feel like a loser. 
Sometimes, not enough people show up for a particular category, or scores are low due to the archer still gaining ability and experience. I’ve seen and been that person, and know that limiting styles and herding those willing to try something more difficult into the general population would not result in more archers. That’s a big deal.
Thank you for shedding more light on this issue. I’m done hiding mine in a barrel.

Ben, your condescending assumption that I don’t know how to read or interpret information presented, along with the added insult that this is a personality trait or propensity, is exactly why we are having this conversation in a forum and no where else.
There are some tournaments that allow Bowhunters to use pins. I prefer Barebow without. It’s good news the agenda doesn’t impose that possible combination. Go ahead and disagree, make your counter point to contribute to the discussion, but what would really make me happy is if I could express myself without being stifled.

Screemnjay, the “Industry” isn’t the only game in town. I have Trad bows, and appreciate the primitive beauty of it, but I’m so glad somebody invented the wheel.
The Compound Barebow shoe fits.


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## s.a.w.

I have read everyone's comments here and agree somewhat to both sides. Just as a reminder to all that there was a time when compounds where such rage that you lucky to find recurve shoots at a meet but we didn't change the rules so that recurves or longbows couldn't shoot. This kinda thing happens all the time. Take cars everyone is making cars look like the 60s cars now. If it were me there would be four classes. Fingers no sight, fingers sight, release no sight and release sight. Everything else is purely preference .


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## s.a.w.

Oh by the way it won't bother me to beat a compound. Just funnin.


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## itbeso

DebraRose said:


> Mr. Borges, you didn’t ask “all” the Barebow shooters at Vegas 2013. I was there, and we didn’t have that conversation.
> Vegas Bowhunters Rules limit the anchor point and finger location. Some Bowhunter Rules specify stabilizer length. That’s why I didn’t sign up in that category, and would prefer the distinction between the two remain.
> How gallant of you to state that my recent silver bowl “hardly means a thing” .
> My competition was against the target, and a 274, my style, is not “watered down”.
> Historically, there certainly is a tradition of some people not feeling like a winner unless they beat someone and make them feel like a loser.
> Sometimes, not enough people show up for a particular category, or scores are low due to the archer still gaining ability and experience. I’ve seen and been that person, and know that limiting styles and herding those willing to try something more difficult into the general population would not result in more archers. That’s a big deal.
> Thank you for shedding more light on this issue. I’m done hiding mine in a barrel.
> 
> Ben, your condescending assumption that I don’t know how to read or interpret information presented, along with the added insult that this is a personality trait or propensity, is exactly why we are having this conversation in a forum and no where else.
> There are some tournaments that allow Bowhunters to use pins. I prefer Barebow without. It’s good news the agenda doesn’t impose that possible combination. Go ahead and disagree, make your counter point to contribute to the discussion, but what would really make me happy is if I could express myself without being stifled.
> 
> Screemnjay, the “Industry” isn’t the only game in town. I have Trad bows, and appreciate the primitive beauty of it, but I’m so glad somebody invented the wheel.
> The Compound Barebow shoe fits.


Again, you need to look up and understand before you make statements without any basis. There is no bowhunter class, per se, at vegas. The bowhunter class and the barebow class are combined under one heading. There are no tournaments where sights are allowed in the bowhunter class. Lastly, I have no desire to have conversations with you anywhere other than correcting your misinformation on these threads.


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## archer_nm

Debarose, you are shooting BB and the agenda item puts that in your favor, I quess that you don't want anyone to compete against. sure your score is what defines you against the competion when there is someone to shoot against and in practice keeps you shooting to get better. Most of us (not all) go to Vegas or Lousiville or Outdoor Nationals to enjoy the competition with other shooters and try to beat each other. I am sorry that is not your bag or cup of tea, so I would ask you to share your feelings with your State Director on how you would like him to vote since this is a Democracy, but in the same token if it does not go the way you would like it to go please don't let it hamper your enjoyment on why you are shooting. You are correct in that I may have missed some of the shooters in Vegas but I did the best I could with the time I have available while I am working those 12 hour days.


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## zestycj7

I say just go ahead and join the two "COMPOUND" classes.
Make it so you can use any length stabilizer/counter balance.
Everyone shoots thier bows bare, no levels, clickers, draw checks.
One anchor point and no string walking.
That would put "everyone" on the same playing field.
Don.


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## BigCnyn

I agree with Don...
and contacted my director


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## archer_nm

Thank you Brian that's just what you need to do.


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## archer_nm

Don if I am reading what you said correctly the only thing you would allow is a longer stabilizer for a new style, would you PM me with your reasoning on the issues with all the things you would not allow.


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## pokynojoe

I would say that combining them for most of us in the "hinterland" would be a non issue. The bigger issue for us, is the survival of field archery in general. We had only 18 shoot our state outdoor championship this year and that's in all classes. I shot in three different state championships this past year and the largest was 32 participants. There were no barebow, bowhunter, or traditional shooters in any of them. There was one shooter who shot freestyle recurve (or whatever it's called nowadays).

I suppose what this is all about is the attendance at the two or three big events. From where I sit, I just don't see where combining them or not is going to make much difference in attendance. If awards are a problem, just don't give them out if you only have a few in the class. We've been doing that here for a long time now; no complaints.

It seems to me reading through all the posts that most of the respondents seem to be located in California or the west. Frankly I'm not seeing this resurgence in barebow, bowhunter or traditional, in any of the states I shoot in. 

Perhaps what we need is two NFAAs. One for the "blue states" and one for us in the "red states". I'm just kidding, of course. Whatever happens, we'll be fine with it here, it won't make much difference.


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## grantmac

I see lots of new trad archers, but when was the last time ANYONE saw someone get into BB or BH? Compound finger shooting will die with the current shooters.
JOAD has now started offering achievement badges for recurve barebow, even for adults. That it's our source of new nonsight shooters and we don't even have a class for them to compete in.

Grant


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## Supermag1

grantmac said:


> I see lots of new trad archers, but when was the last time ANYONE saw someone get into BB or BH? Compound finger shooting will die with the current shooters.
> JOAD has now started offering achievement badges for recurve barebow, even for adults. That it's our source of new nonsight shooters and we don't even have a class for them to compete in.
> 
> Grant


How about this one from yesterday??? http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157478&p=1069043322#post1069043322

Actually I've seen a fair number of others, most are trad shooters who's shoulders can't hold up to shooting hunting weight with their traditional setup anymore. 

Why do you seem to have some sort of vendetta against unaided compound shooters?


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## DebraRose

The basis for my initial comment was concern that suggestion for agenda item to combine Barebow and Bowhunter would result in my not being able to string walk or an edict on stabilizer length.

I like to string walk. It isn’t an issue at indoor shoots, with point on. For longer or variety of yardage, not everyone uses a trademark gapping method, and I don’t want to have to look at the ground or sky to reach the middle.

Bob, the issue was not about a preference for less competitors. I never said that. I stated the opposite with my credentialed willingness to share what I know about it when asked. 
It isn’t likely that style will ever attract big numbers, compared to the sponsored equipment, but it doesn’t have to be a big deal to include a category that allows any or all of either. You say things are in my favor? The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

Grantmac, a hunter knows that just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. A believer knows that just because something appears to be dying doesn’t mean there won’t be a resurrection.

Ben, while I was not inclined to take your initial call, you have since convinced me of your sincere apology, and once again, it is accepted. Live and learn. 

Happy New Year, Everyone! Best wishes for another great year of archery in 2014!


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## archer_nm

I wish everyone a Happy New Year and hope to see each and everyone of you in Vegas


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## zestycj7

Okay, here is the Adgenda from ther NFAA....
New B. Barebow-Bowhunter
1-11 Remain the same.
C. and D. Remain the same.
Remove E.
F. Becomes E., Re-letter remainder of shooting styles.
So,
The Bowhunter class rules are being dropped, Bowhunter shooters now shoot against the Barebow shooters and Barebow looses nothing.
At least keep line 8 and 9 of the Bowhunter rules. Then at least we all aim the arrow the same.
Don.


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## JINKSTER

zestycj7 said:


> I say just go ahead and join the two "COMPOUND" classes.
> Make it so you can use any length stabilizer/counter balance.
> Everyone shoots thier bows bare, no levels, clickers, draw checks.
> One anchor point and no string walking.
> That would put "everyone" on the same playing field.
> Don.


It's depressing to see the numbers dwindling to where measures must be taken but...if there were a measure to take?...imho?...

Zesty just nailed it.

And again IMHO?...I think there should only be "Two Classes OF Non-Sighted" competitors...

1. "Barebow/Hunter Recurve"

and?...

2. "Barebow/Hunter Compound"

an no string-walking...as you might as well have a sight if you do...(and y'all know that's true)....besides...I never did quite understand how anyone could call a bow that has every bell and whistle known to man screwed and glued to the bow (except a sight) and call it "Bare"?...really?...I'm 55 and been getting a chuckle out of that one since I was 25. :laugh:

I can understand the use of stabs to properly balance a bow...and I don't think it should be anybody's decision how long or short it should be except the archer who owns and shoots it...as to me?...micro-managing and dictating that is like telling a guy how much make-up his wife is allowed to wear...or whether or not or how many cigarettes he's allowed to smoke in his own home...to me?..it's just wrong....*it's their bow*...and part of the archer learning how to properly balance what comes in all different configurations and balance points...so I feel it should be left up to the archer who owns the bow how long or heavy of a stab they want....but clickers?..levels?...draw checks?...to me are all things that make the term "Bare Bow" an oxymoron. :laugh:

Just my 2cent$...Bill. :cool2:


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## grantmac

Supermag1 said:


> How about this one from yesterday??? http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157478&p=1069043322#post1069043322
> 
> Actually I've seen a fair number of others, most are trad shooters who's shoulders can't hold up to shooting hunting weight with their traditional setup anymore.
> 
> Why do you seem to have some sort of vendetta against unaided compound shooters?


He shot fingers compound in the past, not new to the style. Also knowing him it'll be shot a few times (never in competition) and sold within six months. I'm talking about competitors, non competitive shooters aren't my concern. We are discussing the rules of a competition so they really have no part in the conversation.

As for my personal feelings: I like to shoot recurve barebow (world archery rules). I'd like to see the style grow because I know it has the greatest chance of long term growth due to the inherent simplicity of the rules and international popularity.
The NFAA is busy keeping styles on life support which will never grow, handing out prizes to single entrants and doing nothing to become consistent with international rules.

Grant


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## JINKSTER

Supermag1 said:


> Why do you seem to have some sort of vendetta against unaided compound shooters?


What would ever make you ask that question SM? :laugh:



grantmac said:


> He shot fingers compound in the past, not new to the style. Also knowing him it'll be shot a few times (never in competition) and sold within six months. I'm talking about competitors, non competitive shooters aren't my concern. We are discussing the rules of a competition so they really have no part in the conversation.
> 
> 
> Grant


Grant...really?...you've been a witness to an extremely small fraction of a whopping 2 years of my 55 year old life...and a forum where I found some great people who happen to have a lifetime of trad experience and shared it with me as they talked me down (albeit in baby steps) from a 54# Bob Lee TD Hunter too...a 32# Falco Force Carbon D-Longbow...and Having my custom 43# Bushmen reduced to 37#s...with a plethora of other bows between such as ILF's that I never tried before and just wanted to see...heck...I even owned a DAS for one day! LOL!...(BTW I think their limbs blow)...but here's what I did win...AS A COMPETITOR.....NFAA....BHFSL...and much of them with my 1991 Jennings Carbon Extreme that I sold just two years ago...






























but now...according to you...and your apparent foul opinion of me which you just chose to make public...I'm not a competitor anymore?....just a guy who buys and sells bows?....who has no say in this public conversation?...and if I do?...according to you I just don't count and all my remarks and opines should be immediately dismissed?....okay.

You have a great evening Grant.


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## ia bhtr

Bob , from shooting BBBH in the past and seeing how some got bent out of shape if they thought someone had an equipment edge , this mite not be a popular idea , but if non sight is headed where you think it is ( I also believe the same as you - even tho I went to a hinge release because of TP ) my suggestion would be finger release - non sight w/o any rules pertaining to nock contact , stabilizer length , draw checks etc , that way everyone wanting to shoot non sight has to do so with fingers and everything else is fair game for all to use .......... seems pretty simple to me .......... and fair to all competitors because they have the same options available to them as everyone else


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## JINKSTER

ia bhtr said:


> Bob , from shooting BBBH in the past and seeing how some got bent out of shape if they thought someone had an equipment edge , this mite not be a popular idea , but if non sight is headed where you think it is ( I also believe the same as you - even tho I went to a hinge release because of TP ) my suggestion would be finger release - non sight w/o any rules pertaining to nock contact , stabilizer length , draw checks etc , that way everyone wanting to shoot non sight has to do so with fingers and everything else is fair game for all to use .......... seems pretty simple to me .......... and fair to all competitors because they have the same options available to them as everyone else


I like that idea as well. :thumbs_up


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## 2413gary

Unless I am missing something this is exactly what the petition is doing just bring your bow without a sight and shoot to simple.
Gary


ia bhtr said:


> Bob , from shooting BBBH in the past and seeing how some got bent out of shape if they thought someone had an equipment edge , this mite not be a popular idea , but if non sight is headed where you think it is ( I also believe the same as you - even tho I went to a hinge release because of TP ) my suggestion would be finger release - non sight w/o any rules pertaining to nock contact , stabilizer length , draw checks etc , that way everyone wanting to shoot non sight has to do so with fingers and everything else is fair game for all to use .......... seems pretty simple to me .......... and fair to all competitors because they have the same options available to them as everyone else


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## archer_nm

*Rehab bowhunter*

Thank you Gary, not everyone will be happy but the majority will IMO. Don you did not give me a chance to answer your PM, prior to your posting your last response. This could be amended at the meeting but as I have seen at these meetings if a Director does not have time to confer with his state they will not be willing or even able to amend the agenda item. If this does pass in its present form then you may want to make changes in 2015 or not. But the bottom line is we need to do something.
Don your state will tell Tom how to vote so as I have said in the past you need to talk to your area reps and to Tom as your meeting is less than 2 weeks away.


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## dragonheart II

An good archer shooting bowhunter can compete right with a stringwalking barebow shooter. Make NFAA barebow like the rules of Vegas are right now. One non-sighted class.


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## archer_nm

As well as in Redding and we even have at least 1women besting most of us


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## itbeso

archer_nm said:


> As well as in Redding and we even have at least 1women besting most of us


Speak for yourself, Bob.:smile:


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## screemnjay

Jinkster, you asked the question...http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157478

Maybe Grant has answered.

LOL!


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## archer_nm

Ben I was talking about me:zip:


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## itbeso

archer_nm said:


> Ben I was talking about me:zip:


LOL. It's all good.


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## J. Wesbrock

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but for the life of me I don't understand this drive some folks have to make every archery organization exactly the same. If they all have the same classes, rules, and competitions, what's the point of having different organizations at all? Why don just disband IFAA, NFAA, ASA, IBO, and make everyone join and shoot WA? Part of what's great about having different organizations is that they're different.


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## itbeso

J. Wesbrock said:


> It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but for the life of me I don't understand this drive some folks have to make every archery organization exactly the same. If they all have the same classes, rules, and competitions, what's the point of having different organizations at all? Why don just disband IFAA, NFAA, ASA, IBO, and make everyone join and shoot WA? Part of what's great about having different organizations is that they're different.


Jason, I think the answer to your question is that for those of us who would like to crossover and shoot the different organizations, we would like to do so without changing our bow setup everytime we do. It is very frustrating to have to change your equipment moving from Nfaa to Ibo to Wa To ifaa.


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## screemnjay

J. Wesbrock said:


> It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but for the life of me I don't understand this drive some folks have to make every archery organization exactly the same. If they all have the same classes, rules, and competitions, what's the point of having different organizations at all? Why don just disband IFAA, NFAA, ASA, IBO, and make everyone join and shoot WA? Part of what's great about having different organizations is that they're different.


In addition to Bens point, which I agree with, I think the thought process is saturation as opposed to diluted. Imagine a well attended tourney, regardless of Organization, with a consolidated class of sightless Archers, that has an equal or greater number of sightless shooters compared to sighted.

There's strength in Harmony.


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## archer_nm

At this point no one is trying to make the NFAA like the other organizations, this is only trying to make the non-sight compound shooters a bigger group. Meeting time is getting close and that being said if any of you have talked to your Directors, I would like to hear what their reactions have been. Keep in mind that THEY work for you the members.


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## J. Wesbrock

itbeso said:


> Jason, I think the answer to your question is that for those of us who would like to crossover and shoot the different organizations, we would like to do so without changing our bow setup everytime we do. It is very frustrating to have to change your equipment moving from Nfaa to Ibo to Wa To ifaa.


I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see the big deal. If I can figure out how to transition between IBO RU, Fita Barebow, NFAA Traditional, and IFAA Recurve Barebow it can't be that difficult.


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## FS560

s.a.w. said:


> If it were me there would be four classes. Fingers no sight, fingers sight, release no sight and release sight. Everything else is purely preference .


Bingo! These four styles. Any style bow, stabilizer or not, clicker or not, stringwalk or not, etc.


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## FS560

Pursuant to the purported well intentioned posts in this thread, is it not amazing how alive and well the small pond attitude still remains. And that is the reason productive change is not likely because few, if any, of us can agree on a GD thing.


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## JINKSTER

FS560 said:


> Pursuant to the purported well intentioned posts in this thread, is it not amazing how alive and well the small pond attitude still remains. And that is the reason productive change is not likely because few, if any, of us can agree on a GD thing.


I agree.


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## itbeso

JINKSTER said:


> I agree.


***???? You get some GD freestyler butting into our attempts to unify two divisions and you agree with him, Jinks?????? Speaking of a small pond, lets get rid of all the other styles of shooting except freestyle and see how long the Nfaa lasts and especially the multitude of archery ranges in service today because there sure won't be any arrogant and elitist freestylers out there maintaining those ranges. They want someone else to do it for them.


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## screemnjay

As the subject matter derailed during the progression of this thread, it has not been emphasized that, the amendment, as proposed, is discretionary. The rules (subject to the passing of the amendment), moving forward, will allow the consolidation, not make them mandatory.


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## JINKSTER

itbeso said:


> ***???? You get some GD freestyler butting into our attempts to unify two divisions and you agree with him, Jinks?????? Speaking of a small pond, lets get rid of all the other styles of shooting except freestyle and see how long the Nfaa lasts and especially the multitude of archery ranges in service today because there sure won't be any arrogant and elitist freestylers out there maintaining those ranges. They want someone else to do it for them.


No....I was just heck bent on proving him wrong....an did....with two little words. 



screemnjay said:


> As the subject matter derailed during the progression of this thread, it has not been emphasized that, the amendment, as proposed, is discretionary. The rules (subject to the passing of the amendment), moving forward, will allow the consolidation, not make them mandatory.


Question...if it's discretionary and not mandatory...does it really still qualify as a "rule"?

or just yet another amendment?

Because I feel this is very close to the way congress manages to get absolutely nothing done but...increase the whine factor.


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## FS560

I may be a GD arrogant freestyler to you but I was shooting recurves with fingers and no sights before you were old enough to vote. I could just as easily call you a condescending small pond bowhunter, but I do not need to do so, because you prove it yourself with every statement.

Here we have a councilman with good intentions in a proposal to combine two small ponds that may be nearing extinction. He shoots in bowhunter and has not attempted to restrict the barebow shooters in this endeavor, but to elevate the bowhunters with availability of the clicker. But, what is the first thing the bowhunters try to do? They want to take the clicker away from the barebow shooters. And why is that? It is because the clicker would bring in more competitive bowhunters and these people do not want that. They want to drag the barebow shooters down to their level or below to maintain their own superiority. This is perpetuation of small ponding at its finest.

And I still say that we cannot agree on a GD thing.

There is certain to be a 15 signature agenda item for the NFAA/USAArchery merger that will take up a lot of time along with these style mergers. Maybe a one day meeting is too short.


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## FS560

What would be the downside to the four styles set forth by s.a.w. in an earlier post?

Fingers/No sight Style
Any bow.
Stringwalking, clickers, short stabilizers, and any arrow rest.
Three piece bows for all non-compounds.
Any arrow style.

Fingers/Sight Style
same as above but any sight.

Release/No Sight Style
same as fingers no sight but any release.

Release/Sight Style
any bow, sight, release, stabilizer.


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## FS560

Clickers

I think we should allow clickers in all divisions and styles because it is really a psychological tool to eliminate target panic. Upon reading extensively in Trad Talk, I am aware that this affliction affects many bowhunter, traditional, longbow, and bowhunter freestyle limited shooters in field and 3D.

Allowing the clicker in all finger styles may help with retention of shooters in those styles. Target panic, whether it be snap shooting or freezing off is quite demoralizing and causes many shooters to just quit. Retention or return of those shooters could be a great help with attendance in the finger styles.

In 1966 I went from shooting 485 barebow one day to being unable to get the point of the arrow anywhere near the dot the next. I tried counting, coming in from the bottom, coming in from the side, thinking about the bearded clown, dipping my bowhand in water between shots, changing anchor points, swilling beer, and other things I cannot remember. Nothing worked. then I discovered the clicker. It worked, I could hold the point of the arrow on the dot, and it was like a revelation, shooting was fun again. Later on, I switched to left hand and taught myself how to use a clicker correctly.

Back then, I asked Cliff Necessary about it and he screwed up his face and said "what".

Getting something like this passed would probably have as much chance as Ben Rogers switching to freestyle.


----------



## zestycj7

FS560 said:


> And why is that? It is because the clicker would bring in more competitive bowhunters and these people do not want that. They want to drag the barebow shooters down to their level or below to maintain their own superiority.


 Really, you are going there?
I take offence to this statement.
I am not trying or wanting to "Drag" anyone down to any level.

Would it not be that if two classes are merged, the rules of both classes would be combined to make one and not elimanating all the rules from one?

I know everyone says that this is allowing the more (as you say) superior BH class to use all the rules of the BB class.
So why not keep the rules listed on lines 8-9 of the BH class so we all just aim the same?
Or is this "Dragging" the BB shooters down and small ponding?
Don.


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## screemnjay

The way I interpret the amendment, the individual class rules will continue as previously defined. The change, will be the consolidation of scores, and awards, when the tournament feels necessary. All the other banter about equipment is just suggestive or speculative.


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## zestycj7

screemnjay said:


> The way I interpret the amendment, the individual class rules will continue as previously defined. The change, will be the consolidation of scores, and awards, when the tournament feels necessary. All the other banter about equipment is just suggestive or speculative.


Nope thats what it is....
Okay, here is the Adgenda from ther NFAA....
New B. Barebow-Bowhunter
1-11 Remain the same.----Bare Bow rules
C. and D. Remain the same.
Remove E.Bow Hunter class
F. Becomes E., Re-letter remainder of shooting styles.
So, the Bowhunter class rules and class are being dropped. 
Now where does it say anything about scores or awards. 

Link to the amendment...https://www.nfaausa.com/sites/default/files/Scanned agenda items.pdf
----page 25
Link to the rules as the are now.....https://www.nfaausa.com/sites/default/files/Constitution-By-Laws-2013-2014_0.pdf 
----pages 30-31.
Don.


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## screemnjay

zestycj7 said:


> Nope thats what it is....
> Okay, here is the Adgenda from ther NFAA....
> New B. Barebow-Bowhunter
> 1-11 Remain the same.----Bare Bow rules
> C. and D. Remain the same.
> Remove E.Bow Hunter class
> F. Becomes E., Re-letter remainder of shooting styles.
> So, the Bowhunter class rules and class are being dropped.
> Now where does it say anything about scores or awards.
> 
> Link to the amendment...https://www.nfaausa.com/sites/default/files/Scanned agenda items.pdf
> ----page 25
> Link to the rules as the are now.....https://www.nfaausa.com/sites/default/files/Constitution-By-Laws-2013-2014_0.pdf
> ----pages 30-31.
> Don.


The whole point is scores and awards. Doesn't have to say it, it's the inspiration. 
You could still set up as a Bowhunter based on the proposal. You just have to shoot in a combined class with Barebow. All of the Bowhunter rules fall within the allowable elements for BareBow.

Bowhunters, as proposed, will compete with/against compounds, clickers, stabilizers and stringwalkers. (Isn't that truly the crux of the argument).

The last Amendment, as presented is the discretionary addendum.

At the end of the day, it works in Vegas.


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## archer_nm

Jay the last has a problem in that you need at least 7 archers in your style and a short notice if you will be combined. Most people have to ask for vacation time at the first of the year way in advance of any type of notice so your time off will not be spent the way you wanted.


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## J. Wesbrock

FS560 said:


> What would be the downside to the four styles set forth by s.a.w. in an earlier post?
> 
> Fingers/No sight Style
> Any bow.
> Stringwalking, clickers, short stabilizers, and any arrow rest.
> Three piece bows for all non-compounds.
> Any arrow style.
> 
> Fingers/Sight Style
> same as above but any sight.
> 
> Release/No Sight Style
> same as fingers no sight but any release.
> 
> Release/Sight Style
> any bow, sight, release, stabilizer.


None, unless you consider realistically eliminating recurves from NFAA competition a downside, which I do.


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## grantmac

Zero point to a release/no-sight class as it's not contested in any other organization.

Replace that with Freestyle Recurve then add Barebow recurve. That gets you pretty close to World Archery. Then just give it a few years and drop the finger compound classifications once the numbers are gone (under 10 years for adult, maybe 10 more for senior).

Grant


----------



## screemnjay

For Clarity's sake, I agree with the consolidation. I also think we need to, if not now, eventually be WA aligned. Not just for the sake of alignment but, because it simplifies and makes sense (to me). The 'descretionary' proposal I disagree with and, find it unnecessary if the classes are combined.


----------



## itbeso

FS560 said:


> Clickers
> 
> I think we should allow clickers in all divisions and styles because it is really a psychological tool to eliminate target panic. Upon reading extensively in Trad Talk, I am aware that this affliction affects many bowhunter, traditional, longbow, and bowhunter freestyle limited shooters in field and 3D.
> 
> Allowing the clicker in all finger styles may help with retention of shooters in those styles. Target panic, whether it be snap shooting or freezing off is quite demoralizing and causes many shooters to just quit. Retention or return of those shooters could be a great help with attendance in the finger styles.
> 
> In 1966 I went from shooting 485 barebow one day to being unable to get the point of the arrow anywhere near the dot the next. I tried counting, coming in from the bottom, coming in from the side, thinking about the bearded clown, dipping my bowhand in water between shots, changing anchor points, swilling beer, and other things I cannot remember. Nothing worked. then I discovered the clicker. It worked, I could hold the point of the arrow on the dot, and it was like a revelation, shooting was fun again. Later on, I switched to left hand and taught myself how to use a clicker correctly.
> 
> Back then, I asked Cliff Necessary about it and he screwed up his face and said "what".
> 
> Getting something like this passed would probably have as much chance as Ben Rogers switching to freestyle.


Ben rogers stopped practicing archery in 1988 after winning his 6th outdoor nationals, in bowhunter class, with an aggregate score higher than any barebow archer up until that time. that group includes Dave Hughes, Denny Cline, Bruce Shelley, Al Tuller, etc. In 1989, I won my last Nfaa nationals in Bowhunter class with 3 weeks practice. My kids were in college and law school and I spent the next 8 years working long hours to help defray those costs. During those years of next to no practice, I finished 2nd in bhfs-l twice at the nationals, I finished in the top 5 twice in bhfs, In 1996, My partner and I won the Redding Classic professional team event( yes, that one!) shooting freestyle. In 1998 , I started practicing again and finished 3rd twice in the Nfaa Senior Pro Freestyle division. Between 2000 and 2009 I won ASA and Ibo tournaments in the senior professional division. In January of 09 I ruptured my left forearm and when the pain stopped 2 months later, Anytime I tried to shoot my compound it was like a piston in action, as my bowarm would bounce from blue to blue on the outdoor 900 round. My scores went from low 890s to 822. I fought that for 3 years of rehab before I picked up a local trash talkers recurve in late Dec. of 2011. By some stroke of fate , I could hold his 47 pound recurve still and proceeded to take his money with his bow. I started shooting recurves shortly after that after a 39 year hiatus strictly because of a chance pull of someone elses one string bow and because it kept me in archery. So, Jim, if you were up on all your facts, you would realize that Ben Rogers has done the freestyle thing, and very well I might add.


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## itbeso

screemnjay said:


> For Clarity's sake, I agree with the consolidation. I also think we need to, if not now, eventually be WA aligned. Not just for the sake of alignment but, because it simplifies and makes sense (to me). The 'descretionary' proposal I disagree with and, find it unnecessary if the classes are combined.


Jay, the BB-BH consolidation would not be relevant to WA. What would be relevant is if we could consolidate all the recurve shooters under the WA rules.


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## Boyd

FS560 said:


> I may be a GD arrogant freestyler to you but I was shooting recurves with fingers and no sights before you were old enough to vote. I could just as easily call you a condescending small pond bowhunter, but I do not need to do so, because you prove it yourself with every statement.
> 
> Here we have a councilman with good intentions in a proposal to combine two small ponds that may be nearing extinction. He shoots in bowhunter and has not attempted to restrict the barebow shooters in this endeavor,* but to elevate the bowhunters with availability of the clicker*. But, what is the first thing the bowhunters try to do? They want to take the clicker away from the barebow shooters. And why is that? *It is because the clicker would bring in more competitive bowhunters and these people do not want that.* *They want to drag the barebow shooters down to their level or below to maintain their own superiority*. *This is perpetuation of small ponding at its finest.*
> 
> And I still say that we cannot agree on a GD thing.
> 
> There is certain to be a 15 signature agenda item for the NFAA/USAArchery merger that will take up a lot of time along with these style mergers. Maybe a one day meeting is too short.


To your points that I’ve highlighted in *BOLD* I say that you are so very wrong.
I’ll make this very simple. IF... the whole point (and this is the whole point) is to combine the BB/BH divisions into one, thus making a larger group of archers, the elimination of the one side of the non-sight class is not fair to the division being eliminated.
In an effort to *COMBINE* the two, there must be a melding of the two sets of rules that govern them. Thus you have a *TRUE* combination of both.

Us BH shooters are not afraid of, nor unwilling to shoot against, BB shooter. Heck, I like shooting against them. I admire anyone who puts the effort into mastering the clicker.

So... NO... If it helps non-sighted archery to build in numbers I would rather we meld the two classes into one. I just know the way to do it is NOT the total elimination of either one just make it happen.


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## archer_nm

Boyd I agree with you but, I talked about this to a number of shooters last year and told them to talk to as many folks as they could to see how they would attack this issue and received no insight on how to handle the thing other than almost all agreed we need to do something, so I came up with what I submitted which had to be in to HQ by the end of Sept. I am the person who started this thread and have seen a lot of feed back some good and some not so good, but it got everyone talking. Like I have stated before ALL of YOU need to talk to your Directors and tell them how you want them to vote or how you think this agenda item needs to be amended. As I have no vote and only can talk if given the floor by a Director (which won't be a problem).


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## Boyd

Bob,

Our phone conversation this evening was most excellent. To that point, I thank you again for your efforts to keep “Archery” alive. Be it BH or BB, your motives are pure.

To the rest of us,
“WE” in these styles (combined or not) need to be involved “IF” there is going to be any real hope to make it our own.
Call your Directors. I called mine and got the ball rolling for the Pacific Northwest.




archer_nm said:


> Boyd I agree with you but, I talked about this to a number of shooters last year and told them to talk to as many folks as they could to see how they would attack this issue and received no insight on how to handle the thing other than almost all agreed we need to do something, so I came up with what I submitted which had to be in to HQ by the end of Sept. I am the person who started this thread and have seen a lot of feed back some good and some not so good, but it got everyone talking. Like I have stated before ALL of YOU need to talk to your Directors and tell them how you want them to vote or how you think this agenda item needs to be amended. As I have no vote and only can talk if given the floor by a Director (which won't be a problem).


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## steve morley

What is it now around 11 divs in IFAA, that is the problem right there. WA3D have 4 divs Compound UL, Barebow, Instinctive and Longbow, WA Field also have and Rec Freestyle, five shooting divs 3 unsighted and 2 sighted, this is the direction we all need to be going. The awards at IFAA worlds takes almost as long as the actual shooting lol

I would like to see two sighted divs Compound/Rec and two unsighted divs Modern/Traditional in the IFAA. Some of the Div rules are so confusing that people don't join the assoc or go to tourneys because they're not sure if their bow fits into the rules


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## itbeso

steve morley said:


> What is it now around 11 divs in IFAA, that is the problem right there. WA3D have 4 divs Compound UL, Barebow, Instinctive and Longbow, WA Field also have and Rec Freestyle, five shooting divs 3 unsighted and 2 sighted, this is the direction we all need to be going. The awards at IFAA worlds takes almost as long as the actual shooting lol
> 
> I would like to see two sighted divs Compound/Rec and two unsighted divs Modern/Traditional in the IFAA. Some of the Div rules are so confusing that people don't join the assoc or go to tourneys because they're not sure if their bow fits into the rules


Steve, for the most part I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem is that the powers that be have no backbone to pare down the classes because they are afraid they will lose archers to another organization that will have a style for them. The solution is to bring all the organizations in line with the same styles of shooting so it doesn't do anyone anygood to threaten to leave if we don't make a class for them. A pipedream for sure, but, we can fantasize.


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## twofinger

6 pages of posts and for the most part it appears that we still have issues on what the solution is. I shoot bare bow ( long stab & stringwalk) I am ready to give up my long stab but I would like to see string or face walk allowed. Even that to me is not important because I shoot mostly indoor shoots so I would work on arrow lengths to be able to shoot with the finger touching the nock but I see the help in string walking for those that shoot outdoors. I really never understood the clicker thing in bare bow to me its not right but that's me, I am not going to have a fit if it is allowed. I have let my director know my thoughts. as a get back in to archery after a long absents I just want to know a) will there be a non sighted class? for compounds and b) what do I need to do to conform to the rules. I have a goal to shoot at next years (2015) indoor nationals, so do I keep saving my change?


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## Boyd

itbeso said:


> Steve, for the most part I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem is that the powers that be have no backbone to pare down the classes because they are afraid they will lose archers to another organization that will have a style for them. The solution is to bring all the organizations in line with the same styles of shooting so it doesn't do anyone anygood to threaten to leave if we don't make a class for them. A pipedream for sure, but, we can fantasize.


O.K. Ben, enough is enough...
Is it the advancement in age (talking about my age. you’ve always been old :wink: ) but every single point that you and I have brought up we’ve been in total agreement. 

A fella could get use to this.


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## steve morley

A few years ago WA and IFAA made an agreement to bring the Div rules closer to each other making it easier for Archers to switch between Associations, nothing happened :sad:


We have a tourney 100 x 3D 2 arrow tourney here and 7 countries participated they merged they IFAA/WA divs like Recurve Bowhunter, Barebow and Instinctive into one, *nobody* complained everybody had a great time.

I dont see why at local events it's split into the normal divs and at National/International events it's cut down to 4-5 divs, at local level the people just shooting for fun still enjoy and the more serious tourney shooters would make their equipment fit and develop their shooting style to these 4-5 divs.

How does a clicker work for IFAA Barebow, doesn't the different crawls and up/down terrain make it more trouble than it's worth, plus you cannot use a normal clicker above the arrow?? I just switched from Bowhunter to Barebow but I've kept it to WA Barebow rules as I will shoot both IFAA and WA tourneys. 

Just an idea.


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## FS560

itbeso said:


> Ben rogers stopped practicing archery in 1988 after winning his 6th outdoor nationals, in bowhunter class, with an aggregate score higher than any barebow archer up until that time. that group includes Dave Hughes, Denny Cline, Bruce Shelley, Al Tuller, etc. In 1989, I won my last Nfaa nationals in Bowhunter class with 3 weeks practice. My kids were in college and law school and I spent the next 8 years working long hours to help defray those costs. During those years of next to no practice, I finished 2nd in bhfs-l twice at the nationals, I finished in the top 5 twice in bhfs, In 1996, My partner and I won the Redding Classic professional team event( yes, that one!) shooting freestyle. In 1998 , I started practicing again and finished 3rd twice in the Nfaa Senior Pro Freestyle division. Between 2000 and 2009 I won ASA and Ibo tournaments in the senior professional division. In January of 09 I ruptured my left forearm and when the pain stopped 2 months later, Anytime I tried to shoot my compound it was like a piston in action, as my bowarm would bounce from blue to blue on the outdoor 900 round. My scores went from low 890s to 822. I fought that for 3 years of rehab before I picked up a local trash talkers recurve in late Dec. of 2011. By some stroke of fate , I could hold his 47 pound recurve still and proceeded to take his money with his bow. I started shooting recurves shortly after that after a 39 year hiatus strictly because of a chance pull of someone elses one string bow and because it kept me in archery. So, Jim, if you were up on all your facts, you would realize that Ben Rogers has done the freestyle thing, and very well I might add.


Ben, I stand enlightened. I really did not think you had ever shot FS.


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## FS560

itbeso said:


> The solution is to bring all the organizations in line with the same styles of shooting


There is currently an initiative in the works to merge NFAA and USAarchery under a common umbrella. In my opinion, Easton would be holding the umbrella.

Regarding NFAA, there is no agenda item to legislate this, but there is likely to be a fifteen signature agenda item for this probably written by the NFAA president (Bruce). He will still need fifteen directors to sign for it to make it to the floor.

I heard from someone that USAarchery has already approved this initiative but I have no idea what the NFAA directors will do.


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## archer_nm

Ok Jim you and Ben need to kiss and make up:wink:


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## itbeso

archer_nm said:


> Ok Jim you and Ben need to kiss and make up:wink:


Differences of opinion do not mean we are fighting. Jim is passionate about archery and so am I, I just feel I have the interest of non sight as well as sight shooters at heart. Jim may also, but, I get the feeling that he is more interested in promoting freestyle only. If I'm wrong, I apologize for that perception. By the way, I'm not sure many people know, but If I remember correctly, Jim was the first person to shoot a 560 on the old face in a sectional or national tournament( not sure which). He also won The Vegas tournament. My respect has always been there for those accomplishments.


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## itbeso

Boyd said:


> O.K. Ben, enough is enough...
> Is it the advancement in age (talking about my age. you’ve always been old :wink: ) but every single point that you and I have brought up we’ve been in total agreement.
> 
> A fella could get use to this.


Boyd, you should have gotten to know me personally instead of listening to all those stories that have no merit.:angel:


----------



## tori_mish

steve morley said:


> I just switched from Bowhunter to Barebow but I've kept it to WA Barebow rules as I will shoot both IFAA and WA tourneys.


What a thread, just worked my way to page 6. Really interesting discussion. Here on the other side of the world, finger shooting is alive and going strong. My local club has a ton of new shooters coming in - many opting for a barebow recurve. Both our National organisations (ABA and AA) feature barebow recurve rule variations - with AA (Archery Australia - our local 'arm' of WA) using the typical WA barebow rules (pass through 12.2cm circle, string/facewalking allowed etc) and with ABA (Australian Bowhunters Association) favouring the equivalent of the IFAA bowhunter class, with fixed anchor point, finger touching nock (eliminating string walking).

I am an active member of both organisations and see no problem with a combination or standardization of the recurve barebow class. My opinions are not particularly pertinent to this discussion, given that it is NFAA specific. I'd favour the World Archery rule-set, it's straight-forward, minimalist with gear and allows all 'aiming' systems, gap/face/stringwalking etc.

I do have a question though, and Steve you might be able to assist in answering - I'm coming over to shoot in Yankton in July, and I am going to shoot 5 days of your NFAA Nationals, and right after that the IFAA Worlds. I haven't decided whether or not I'll be shooting bowhunter or barebow recurve in the IFAA, but I'd like to shoot the same in your NFAA. I currently have a weight screwed into my riser, as you see with WA barebow ... how should I proceed to choose class in NFAA? I'm happy string-walking or gapping, and really just want to shoot the 10 days with the same rig.


----------



## itbeso

tori_mish said:


> What a thread, just worked my way to page 6. Really interesting discussion. Here on the other side of the world, finger shooting is alive and going strong. My local club has a ton of new shooters coming in - many opting for a barebow recurve. Both our National organisations (ABA and AA) feature barebow recurve rule variations - with AA (Archery Australia - our local 'arm' of WA) using the typical WA barebow rules (pass through 12.2cm circle, string/facewalking allowed etc) and with ABA (Australian Bowhunters Association) favouring the equivalent of the IFAA bowhunter class, with fixed anchor point, finger touching nock (eliminating string walking).
> 
> I am an active member of both organisations and see no problem with a combination or standardization of the recurve barebow class. My opinions are not particularly pertinent to this discussion, given that it is NFAA specific. I'd favour the World Archery rule-set, it's straight-forward, minimalist with gear and allows all 'aiming' systems, gap/face/stringwalking etc.
> 
> I do have a question though, and Steve you might be able to assist in answering - I'm coming over to shoot in Yankton in July, and I am going to shoot 5 days of your NFAA Nationals, and right after that the IFAA Worlds. I haven't decided whether or not I'll be shooting bowhunter or barebow recurve in the IFAA, but I'd like to shoot the same in your NFAA. I currently have a weight screwed into my riser, as you see with WA barebow ... how should I proceed to choose class in NFAA? I'm happy string-walking or gapping, and really just want to shoot the 10 days with the same rig.


Tori, if you want to gap, index finger touching the nock, you can register in the traditional class at Nfaa nationals. If you prefer to stringwalk, you would be shooting in the barebow class against compounds


----------



## tori_mish

itbeso said:


> Tori, if you want to gap, index finger touching the nock, you can register in the traditional class at Nfaa nationals. If you prefer to stringwalk, you would be shooting in the barebow class against compounds


Ah, cheers. Just looked up the trad division ruleset ... looks like a 12 inch stabilizer is allowed. I would suppose therefore that a screw-in weight (much shorter than a 12 inch stabilizer) would be acceptable? This is what I use on my FITA barebow setup.


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## FS560

Although I have shot freestyle for a long time now, I have not forgotten the fun early on with recurve and fingers, even stringwalking and facewalking. Or shooting recurve, sight, and release before ever having a compound. That 560 at the nationals in 1972 was with a Bear TD recurve, chek-it sight, and a rope-spike, no scope.

I do not feel like I am attempting to preserve freestyle at the expense of other styles. It may seem like that to others, but not to me. Even though I do reference small ponding liberally, it does exist. Anytime someone speaks about combining styles, it is really about small ponds and the potential elimination thereof.

Competitive archery is a sport where many participants enjoy using equipment and technique limitations and restrictions in lieu of the latest advancements in the sport. What is the difference between that and using a 410 for competitive skeet. With a half ounce of shot and a long column, it is not easy. Likewise, traditional is not easy, or is stringwalking.

Is the problem of too many style champions really a financial thing or just that many of us just do not like to see a champion who only had to outshoot a couple of people or maybe no one? I do not think anyone on the administrative staff at NFAA has ever said that we cannot afford the awards.

After all these years and proliferation of styles, how do we tell a longtime barebow shooter that he now has to learn to shoot with more restriction or tell a bowhunter, who has perfected his craft, that we have created a bigger pond for him, and he will either have to adapt or get eaten.

Maybe the problem is just a small part of a nationwide attitude of ego self gratification whereas everyone has to be a winner to preserve self esteem. We now have graduation exercises for kindergarten, elementary school, junior high, and high school, of course. Where does the instant gratification end?

In our state (VA), our award cost (nice tasteful plaques) are just over half the cost of a single shooter registration fee. The second and third place awards are a little less than that. This means that we could award every participant a plaque and still show a slight profit. This year, however, we are applying the unit rule when overall tournament attendance is less that predetermined minimums.

If there were plenty of shooters in all the styles, we would not be having these discussions. But does it matter.

I would like to see larger attendance within styles, but how can we really do this by combining styles and thereby punishing a few shooters who have perfected their style? I do not know how to do it.

One way is to just do it with large scale style combinations and say "here it is". The diehard loyalists will remain for sure and many others will get mad and leave. Do we want that in an organization that is getting smaller year by year. Again, I do not know.

I continually think of changes in styles and divisions that could be implemented. Some I post on here from time to time and others I do not. I do not think changing our game to attract people that can only maintain an attention span or physical activity for only20 or 30 arrows is a good idea. Furthermore, I am conflicted about taking away any of the small ponds. I could stand flatfooted and argue both sides with a straight face.

I am serious that the clicker should be legal in all styles. The lack of clickers in all finger styles does, in my opinion, limit attendance in those styles. Target panic, whether it be snap shooting, unable to release, or freezing off is an insidious psychological issue. Skeet and trap shooters, bench rest rifle shooters, and golfers, to name a few, all have similar issues. Trap shooters use release triggers which are dangerous as hell.

As archers, we have a very simple device that can save untold numbers of shooters and preserve archery fun for them. But no, we have legions of misguided individuals that think the clicker is just a draw check. A draw check is the least of what it is, maybe one tenth of one percent.

Sorry for the long diatribe. My fingers are sore.

By the way Bob, there are no hard feelings between Ben and me. We just jab each other from time to time.


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## FS560

I have to ask a question about compound vs. recurve.

Is there a quantifiable score advantage between the two bows in non-sighted finger styles? For example, will a good compound stringwalker always outscore a good recurve stringwalker? How about a good compound gap shooter and a good recurve gap shooter?

I may have to ask by friend Dennis Cline. He has successfully stringwalked both, although he was a lot younger when he shot recurve. To bad David Hughes is not still around to ask.

Ben Rogers, what is your idea on this? Is there a real advantage to a compound? I know you have years experience with compound gap and are now playing with recurve stringwalking.

I am aware that compound crawls are less but have read that tuning a compound for crawls is difficult at best in the first place.


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## archer_nm

I knew that, that is what the wink face was for, all of us enjoy both of your post to the subjects we talk about.


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## itbeso

FS560 said:


> I have to ask a question about compound vs. recurve.
> 
> Is there a quantifiable score advantage between the two bows in non-sighted finger styles? For example, will a good compound stringwalker always outscore a good recurve stringwalker? How about a good compound gap shooter and a good recurve gap shooter?
> 
> I may have to ask by friend Dennis Cline. He has successfully stringwalked both, although he was a lot younger when he shot recurve. To bad David Hughes is not still around to ask.
> 
> Ben Rogers, what is your idea on this? Is there a real advantage to a compound? I know you have years experience with compound gap and are now playing with recurve stringwalking.
> 
> I am aware that compound crawls are less but have read that tuning a compound for crawls is difficult at best in the first place.


Jim, in response to your earlier post, I am and always will be an advocate for getting archery down to 3 or 4 classes, whatever they turn out to be. On the subject of compound versus recurve, there is no comparison as far as scores go, The compound is much easier to shoot consistently, much more accurate, and easier to tune for stringwalking. Now, that observation is made without having used a clicker in either discipline as WA archery does not allow a clicker in barebow nor does Nfaa in the trad class. Back when I was shooting The Bowhunter class, I used a gapping system exclusively. The gaps with a compound are much tighter than those with a recurve, making the short yardages with a recurve a lot tougher to score well on. When I first came back to recurve, I won the 2012 World fita field trials in Spokane using my old gap system, however the short yardages ate me up and I soon switched to string walking to account for that. I talked to my Nfaa director, Tom Daley, at length about the merger and he is of the same persuasion as you in that he feels the clicker should be retained because too many people rely on it to get them through target panic problems..


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## FS560

Ben, for barebow, if the recurve SW and compound SW are both aiming right at the dot and are point on at all distances, does the higher velocity of the compound provide a significant score advantage given equal shooter ability and that there be no other perception of the compound being superior.

Now here is a wild idea. How about compound bowhunter and traditional being in the same style/class but allow the recurve shooter to SW and the compound shooter not.

I believe that your four styles/classes are 1. compound freestyle unlimited; 2. recurve freestyle limited (Olympic rules); 3. compound/no sights/fingers (NFAA bowhunter rules); and 4. recurve/no sights/fingers (NFAA Trad and/or WA barebow?).

Not saying it would be a bad idea, because it is a logical process, but if that came to be, what would we say to all the styles that would be abrogated as a result? What do we say to the following style shooters?

Barebow (compound)
Bowhunter FS
Bowhunter FSU
Longbow
Freestyle Unlimited

The longbow shooter says "I am not shooting against recurves, they have an advantage".
The barebow shooter says "let the bowhunter move up to my way of shooting".
The bowhunter freestyle shooter says "I am not shooting against scopes and long stabilizers, they have an advantage".
The bowhunter freestyle limited shooter says "I am not shooting against releases, scopes, and long stabilizers, they have an advantage".
The freestyle limited shooter says "I am not shooting against releases, they have an advantage".

An so it goes and we are nowhere.


I do not see how to do it without stepping on some innocent people who we are already responsible for.


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## wa-prez

screemnjay said:


> The way I interpret the amendment, the individual class rules will continue as previously defined. The change, will be the consolidation of scores, and awards, when the tournament feels necessary. All the other banter about equipment is just suggestive or speculative.


THIS guy is talking about a DIFFERENT Agenda Item than the one most of you have discussed. THIS ONE is WA-1, which I drafted. It leaves the DEFINITIONS of the styles intact, but specifies that the "minority" styles (BH, BHFSL, and Longbow would be merged with their "bigger brothers" unless there was sufficient pre-registration (defined as at least 7) to warrant separation. 

So 3 guys register as Adult BB, 1 as Adult BH, they would be combined at BB. If 3 guys register as BB and 5 as BH, total is 8, both BB and BH would be recognized. 

This would only "automatically" apply to Sectional and National NFAA events. State Championships and Club events could choose to go along with the rule, to always recognize all the styles, or to always combine the styles.

MOST of the discussion in this thread has been on a different Agenda Item which only addresses BB and BH, and practically has the effect of eliminating BH.


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## J. Wesbrock

FS560 said:


> Ben, for barebow, if the recurve SW and compound SW are both aiming right at the dot and are point on at all distances, does the higher velocity of the compound provide a significant score advantage given equal shooter ability and that there be no other perception of the compound being superior.


Having competed in Barebow, Bowhunter, and Traditional, I can tell you the letoff of the compound is the huge advantage. Look at the NFAA Indoor Nationals scores. Last year Traditional was won with a 545. The top Bowhunter score was 587. In 2012 the winning scores in those two classes were 558 and 595 respectively. In 2011 they were 547 and 586. That's about a 40-point spread year after year.

If you look at the IFAA Field scores for Compound Barebow versus Recurve Barebow -- where there are no accessory or shooting style differences -- you'll also see a huge gap. The top shooters in Compound Barebow should easily break 500. In Recurve Barebow, the top scores are more like 470s.

Eliminating a specific class for recurves will effectively eliminate them from competition.


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## itbeso

FS560 said:


> Ben, for barebow, if the recurve SW and compound SW are both aiming right at the dot and are point on at all distances, does the higher velocity of the compound provide a significant score advantage given equal shooter ability and that there be no other perception of the compound being superior.
> 
> Now here is a wild idea. How about compound bowhunter and traditional being in the same style/class but allow the recurve shooter to SW and the compound shooter not.
> 
> I believe that your four styles/classes are 1. compound freestyle unlimited; 2. recurve freestyle limited (Olympic rules); 3. compound/no sights/fingers (NFAA bowhunter rules); and 4. recurve/no sights/fingers (NFAA Trad and/or WA barebow?).
> 
> Not saying it would be a bad idea, because it is a logical process, but if that came to be, what would we say to all the styles that would be abrogated as a result? What do we say to the following style shooters?
> 
> Barebow (compound)
> Bowhunter FS
> Bowhunter FSU
> Longbow
> Freestyle Unlimited
> 
> The longbow shooter says "I am not shooting against recurves, they have an advantage".
> The barebow shooter says "let the bowhunter move up to my way of shooting".
> The bowhunter freestyle shooter says "I am not shooting against scopes and long stabilizers, they have an advantage".
> The bowhunter freestyle limited shooter says "I am not shooting against releases, scopes, and long stabilizers, they have an advantage".
> The freestyle limited shooter says "I am not shooting against releases, they have an advantage".
> 
> An so it goes and we are nowhere.
> 
> 
> I do not see how to do it without stepping on some innocent people who we are already responsible for.


Jim, I feel we are more responsible for the perpetuation of archery than we are for stepping on toes of some of the current archers. I think it is incumbent upon Nfaa officials to have the backbone to undo all the damage they have done by making a class for every complainer along the way. With that said, my preference for four classes would be FSU, recurve- fingers and sight, compound barebow, and World archerys recurve barebow. When I first joined Nfaa, there were only two classes IIRC, FS, and barebow. If we chose to correct the problem now, in 3 years no one will remember the past and we will have helped our sport immensely. All the new people coming in will know the new rules and accept them. We need to have a committee to make and enforce the rules, not let the archers create whatever chaos that they do now under the existing constitution and by-laws


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## zipper62

I am sorry to butt into this seven page thread so late, but I just stumbled onto it. I very seldom visit and have never participated, as so many threads seem to degenerate into peeing contests and/or egotistical battles. However, this one hits where I live and many of the opinions offered disturb me. So, here are my opinions.

Did I miss something? Just one short year after adding a gazillion new awards and breaking classes into even smaller groups by expanding the senior classes we have this proposal to "save" two foundering divisions by combining them? Who is worried about the size of each class or the number of awards after taking that action? This proposal makes no sense to me and contradicts last year's changes. Has NFAA decided we made a mistake and now wants to reverse course, eliminate divisions and thereby offend the few who still participate in them? If so, I have not heard about it.

Regardless how it is done, this merge will offend some people. One prevalent oversight I have observed in this thread and others that bash the current state of affairs within the NFAA is that of viewing problems primarily through the eyes of one who competes on a world, national or regional level. In doing so, we ignore the many who compete only locally. These folks are members too. In some cases, they are the backbone of their local club. They like their shooting style. Let's not forget about them as we lament the dwindling size of the BH and BB classes at the nationals. They might be "small ponders" as some have suggested, but they are members too. After a long hiatus from archery, I was shocked to see how many clubs and members we have already lost. Why risk adding more to the list? It appears the idea of saving by merging is just that - an idea or theory. Anybody care to guarantee that it will work? That we will gain more members than we will lose? I sure would not. I know one goal of this thread is to generate ideas, but it seems to me that many of those presented are too cavalier and downright insensitive. Maybe I take them too seriously. So far, I see much more risk than reward in the proposed action.

BB, BH and Trad represent the last vestiges of NFAA heritage. Being an old school traditionalist, it disturbs me greatly to see how diminished they have become. I want as much as anyone to see them grow, but I don't think merging is the answer. NFAA as a whole, not just a few of us concerned BHs and BBs, needs to develop the desire to retain these divisions and preserve its heritage. Before risking further decline, we should seek other solutions. I sure don't have all the answers, and certainly nothing I would guarantee, but here are some alternative ideas.

NFAA needs to start actively promoting  all styles of shooting. When is the last time Archery magazine published articles promoting BH or BB? We lost a great friend and promotional resource when Paul Davison passed and was not replaced. I think the BH and BB articles profiling champions in the 60s, 70s and 80s helped to maintain interest in our shooting styles and helped some decide to try to join us. I know I wore out my issues reading about Gandy, Necessary and Hughes in my early years. We have a huge potential resource in the NASP, which starts kids out shooting fingers and no sights. Can we find a way to promote our brand with these kids? The Hunger Games movie has sparked tremendous interest in traditional archery. Seems like NFAA would benefit, across the board, by trying to recruit these kids, but I am not aware if there is a focused effort to do so. That would benefit all shooting divisions. Here is an idea that is a little more off the wall: why not create focus on finger shooting by having a separate nationals for all fingers styles? IBO enjoys great success by having a separate competition for traditional classes. Seems to me something like that might create some new incentive to participate. We are little fish in a big pond. We need our own pond. In BB, we have some unique traditions that have helped us maintain interest. One is the BB Belt (originally known as the Texas Belt), which personified David Hughes' sportsmanship. It has been passed on every year since 1972, when he passed it to me. It goes to the highest score of all men and young adults competing in the BB division. The women also have a similar award. We also help maintain interest with an annual picnic each year at the outdoor nationals. The BB Fraternity evolved from these informal cookouts among a few BB buddies and has been expanded to include BH and Trad shooters, family and friends. My point is we need to be promoting and recruiting rather than downsizing, which might occur if we merge divisions. I would rather try these or other ideas before merging.

Denny Cline


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## J. Wesbrock

Denny,

As someone who cut his teeth shooting BB out of Aurora Land Archers, it's nice to see you're still involved. Your name was like royalty in that club.


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## zipper62

Let me address some of the questions regarding clickers and recurve vs compound since I have used them all and am uniquely qualified. My experience with clickers dates back to 1965, which was only a couple years after I bought my first recurve. Only two people ever won men's BB at the nationals using a recurve and a compound. Dave Hughes was the first, and I was the last in 1973. Dave won the first nationals in BB with a compound in 1974 and by 1976 almost everyone had converted.

First and foremost, Jim is spot on with his comments about clickers. The primary need for them is to stop target panic. A clicker is not necessarily an instant cure, but given enough time it does the job. It took me at least two years to really learn to use a clicker. I shot the summer of 1966 in Washington state, when I had work there, and shot through the clicker nearly every shot. My cock feathers were shaved almost to the quill by the time I got back to college in the fall. That's how bad my target panic was. Once I got past the learning curve, other advantages became apparent, especially with a recurve.

Recurves that I used were considerably slower than today's compounds and, because they stacked badly, a little creep at full draw added considerable variability in elevation at the target. So a secondary benefit of the clicker was tighter groups by keeping a constant draw length. I guess Olympic shooters still use the clicker for that same reason. Another benefit that goes along is that they improve the aiming process. At least they did for me. It stands to reason since you are no longer snap shooting you have more time to aim and you aim closer. 

In the recurve era, I had to use three anchor points in addition to stringwalking and even then I needed to go split finger for the 80. Today, most BB shooters reach everything with the compound using one anchor point. Written memoranda were not allowed in those days, so you had to remember your crawls for each anchor. Of course, the BH crowd had to remember their gaps as well.

Aggregate score records for the outdoor nationals in the early 70s were about 420 points higher for BB than BH. It is impossible to know how much of that differential was due to aiming technique (stringwalking vs gapping) and how much was due to the clicker. My thinking is that it was mostly aiming since the bows were so much slower in those days which created a greater disadvantage for gap shooters, but the clicker could still have contributed. Of course part of the difference was Dave Hughes' superhuman performance in 1969 when he nearly beat the entire field including freestyle.

In 1972, Cal Vogt erased about 200 of the 420 differential and opened everyone's eyes to the coming of the compound. Wish I had taken heed sooner, but I was mired with the "can't stringwalk a compound" crowd. The following year, Cal cut the differential to about 100 points, raising the BH record to 2586. The last year on the old 5 - 3 target in 1976 Dave Hughes raised his aggregate record 51 points with the compound to 2774 which included a pair of 552s on the field round. Runner-up Al Tuller notched a 556 hunter round. Prior to then, 542 was the highest field round shot at the nationals with a recurve. In 1976, Hugh McConnell raised the BH aggregate record to 2600. 1975 and 1976 offer the only real data comparing recurve and compound on the same target and scoring, and clearly show the advantage of the compound in both BB and BH, with BH enjoying a much larger and faster gain. In 1977, all the records were reset with the new 5 - 4 - 3 scoring. 

After the target change, BB enjoyed an initial advantage in aggregate score of 183 points which stayed at 100 or more until 1981 when the advantage dropped to 61 points and stayed in the 60s until 1985 when it was cut to 34 points. Then, in 1986 Jim Brown bested my aggregate record by 2 points, marking the first time in the modern era that BH surpassed BB. Ben increased the gap to 15 points in 1988. After I retired my bow in 1989, Brad Marshall carried the flag for BB and I lost track of who beat who. The point of all this is to show agreement that BH scores have matched and then exceeded those of BB at the highest level of competition in spite of the use of a clicker and stringwalking in BB. In my view, this was accomplished by refining gap shooting technique once the benefits of increased speed of the compound were realized. Having never shot BH, I may be unaware of other milestones achieved in BH.

So, comparing BH and BB and clicker vs no clicker, I can say that within BB, clickers initially ruled but since 1989 both Dave Clem and Brad Marshall have many wins without clickers. As far as record scores go, I think my two day field record still stands, but Brad has the rest without a clicker. (note this is for the 5 day shooting format - records were reset when we went to 3 days). I don't have much data since 1989, but understand that top BH and BB scores have been reasonably similar since then. 

This year will mark my sixth since returning to archery and I have become acutely aware that the guys beating me regularly don't use a clicker! So much so that I am currently trying to discard my crutch and shoot without one. But, believe me and Jim that there are folks that really need them and they should be allowed so that those folks can participate. And, yes, I don't give a rat's behind that we would not conform with WA. We are NFAA and should be proud of it!


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## itbeso

zipper62 said:


> Let me address some of the questions regarding clickers and recurve vs compound since I have used them all and am uniquely qualified. My experience with clickers dates back to 1965, which was only a couple years after I bought my first recurve. Only two people ever won men's BB at the nationals using a recurve and a compound. Dave Hughes was the first, and I was the last in 1973. Dave won the first nationals in BB with a compound in 1974 and by 1976 almost everyone had converted.
> 
> First and foremost, Jim is spot on with his comments about clickers. The primary need for them is to stop target panic. A clicker is not necessarily an instant cure, but given enough time it does the job. It took me at least two years to really learn to use a clicker. I shot the summer of 1966 in Washington state, when I had work there, and shot through the clicker nearly every shot. My cock feathers were shaved almost to the quill by the time I got back to college in the fall. That's how bad my target panic was. Once I got past the learning curve, other advantages became apparent, especially with a recurve.
> 
> Recurves that I used were considerably slower than today's compounds and, because they stacked badly, a little creep at full draw added considerable variability in elevation at the target. So a secondary benefit of the clicker was tighter groups by keeping a constant draw length. I guess Olympic shooters still use the clicker for that same reason. Another benefit that goes along is that they improve the aiming process. At least they did for me. It stands to reason since you are no longer snap shooting you have more time to aim and you aim closer.
> 
> In the recurve era, I had to use three anchor points in addition to stringwalking and even then I needed to go split finger for the 80. Today, most BB shooters reach everything with the compound using one anchor point. Written memoranda were not allowed in those days, so you had to remember your crawls for each anchor. Of course, the BH crowd had to remember their gaps as well.
> 
> Aggregate score records for the outdoor nationals in the early 70s were about 420 points higher for BB than BH. It is impossible to know how much of that differential was due to aiming technique (stringwalking vs gapping) and how much was due to the clicker. My thinking is that it was mostly aiming since the bows were so much slower in those days which created a greater disadvantage for gap shooters, but the clicker could still have contributed. Of course part of the difference was Dave Hughes' superhuman performance in 1969 when he nearly beat the entire field including freestyle.
> 
> In 1972, Cal Vogt erased about 200 of the 420 differential and opened everyone's eyes to the coming of the compound. Wish I had taken heed sooner, but I was mired with the "can't stringwalk a compound" crowd. The following year, Cal cut the differential to about 100 points, raising the BH record to 2586. The last year on the old 5 - 3 target in 1976 Dave Hughes raised his aggregate record 51 points with the compound to 2774 which included a pair of 552s on the field round. Runner-up Al Tuller notched a 556 hunter round. Prior to then, 542 was the highest field round shot at the nationals with a recurve. In 1976, Hugh McConnell raised the BH aggregate record to 2600. 1975 and 1976 offer the only real data comparing recurve and compound on the same target and scoring, and clearly show the advantage of the compound in both BB and BH, with BH enjoying a much larger and faster gain. In 1977, all the records were reset with the new 5 - 4 - 3 scoring.
> 
> After the target change, BB enjoyed an initial advantage in aggregate score of 183 points which stayed at 100 or more until 1981 when the advantage dropped to 61 points and stayed in the 60s until 1985 when it was cut to 34 points. Then, in 1986 Jim Brown bested my aggregate record by 2 points, marking the first time in the modern era that BH surpassed BB. Ben increased the gap to 15 points in 1988. After I retired my bow in 1989, Brad Marshall carried the flag for BB and I lost track of who beat who. The point of all this is to show agreement that BH scores have matched and then exceeded those of BB at the highest level of competition in spite of the use of a clicker and stringwalking in BB. In my view, this was accomplished by refining gap shooting technique once the benefits of increased speed of the compound were realized. Having never shot BH, I may be unaware of other milestones achieved in BH.
> 
> So, comparing BH and BB and clicker vs no clicker, I can say that within BB, clickers initially ruled but since 1989 both Dave Clem and Brad Marshall have many wins without clickers. As far as record scores go, I think my two day field record still stands, but Brad has the rest without a clicker. (note this is for the 5 day shooting format - records were reset when we went to 3 days). I don't have much data since 1989, but understand that top BH and BB scores have been reasonably similar since then.
> 
> This year will mark my sixth since returning to archery and I have become acutely aware that the guys beating me regularly don't use a clicker! So much so that I am currently trying to discard my crutch and shoot without one. But, believe me and Jim that there are folks that really need them and they should be allowed so that those folks can participate. And, yes, I don't give a rat's behind that we would not conform with WA. We are NFAA and should be proud of it!


Denny, thanks for the walk down memory lane, it brought back hidden memories. I could be wrong, but, I think you are ,in essence, preaching to the choir. I have never stringwalked a compound, but I have shot a compound non sight with fingers and without a clicker. I do not think the top archers in BH class need a clicker to shoot well and I also think there isn't an advantage to it when using a compound. We both know that shooting a recurve with a clicker is another story. I don't care if it is called barebow, bowhunter, or whatever. The bottom line is that the Nfaa needs to consolidate their classes and that is what this merger is trying to do.I am a proud member of Nfaa, but I am also of the opinion that all archery would be better served if there were consistent classes and rules throughout the different organizations. The merger of BH and BB has nothing to do at this point with World Archery. What a lot of us recurve archers are trying to do is bring our recurve rules in line with WA so we are better prepared for international competitions. By the way, can you tell me why in the world there are different records for a three day nationals. Why not take the best score per round from the previous nationals and count that as the record if it is higher. The Nfaa needs a little common sense leadership.


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## grantmac

zipper62 said:


> And, yes, I don't give a rat's behind that we would not conform with WA. We are NFAA and should be proud of it!


Who's going to beat that drum in 5, 10, 15 years if the NFAA won't draw in non-sight archers from other organizations? They sure as heck aren't generating any new ones.

-Grant


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## Humdinger

itbeso said:


> Grant, I understand where you are coming from on the barebow recurve thing but I think you are underestimating the archers who support those classes( bb&bh). It doesn't matter whether they are popular in isolated parts of this country or in the whole country, they are being perpetuated for a reason. For a long time now, the manufacturers and industry have been trying to get rid of the nonsight and finger classes, ( not enough accessories in those classes to make money off of ). All marketing is directed towards compounds, releases,short, fast bows and instant gratification, but sooner or later, a lot of those archers come into contact with archers doing the sport in the old ways and actually get to experience , first hand , what the romance of archery is all about. I see a renewed interest and a real growth in archers getting back to the roots of the sport here in the U.S. I don't think it is feasible to drop the compound nonsight shooters at this time but I do think it is feasible to put all recurvers under one roof to have a class that complys with the rest of the worlds nonsight shooters


I agree with this 100% I feel these two topics BB &BH combining and adding the Barebow Recurve class are necessary to keep the none site shooters in the game. WIth the current growth of Barebow recurve shooters coming in it only makes sense to have our classes on par with World Archery.

As for the Compound finger shooters there is not a huge stream of new archers coming in for this style. Its a survival thing at this point. Just like most sports as technology grows so does the sport. In some of these cases the sport moves away from the roots to adapt and survive the interest of the new generations.

Race cars, golf, Football, baseball, etc.. are all sports which lost aspects of the game that were equipment related. However if they didnt the sport itself would be gone as a whole... Sad reality.


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## 2413gary

Some of us here don't have the ability to give up. I will be beating the drum in 15 years and my 3 Nephews will take it from there everywhere I shoot people are amazed at nonsight shooting. You should try to help make our sport grow instead of Constantly tearing it down.


grantmac said:


> Who's going to beat that drum in 5, 10, 15 years if the NFAA won't draw in non-sight archers from other organizations? They sure as heck aren't generating any new ones.
> 
> -Grant


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## Humdinger

You know being a new archer coming into this sport i was very overwhelmed on all the different rules from sanction to sanction.. It all most turned me off going to shoots all together. I started in FITA with a Barebow because this was the only sanctioning body i heard of. It was the only advertised sanctioning body that was easly found by a new archer. I shot that for almost 6 months before i even heard of a 3d event or Field event. I got invited to go to my first 3d shoot like it was a big secret event that was invite only.. I went had a blast and still didnt know what or who NFAA was. I over heard a conversation about the CBH and then went online to investigate.. This is when i found out there was another organization called NFAA! Once ive become a member this is my home.. My point here is that i agree with an above statement about reaching out to new archers.. Had i not stumbled on the NFAA i would still not know about it and would probably be shooting a Freestyle compound instead of my Barebow recurve.. The key word is stumbled...Usa archery was and is everywhere.. They host collegiate tournaments which i feel is something that could boost the influx of new archers. This last weekend we had the most Barebow archers that has ever attended a State indoor and guess what? They were almost all College kids.. I bet you NONE of them know about NFAA and if they did im sure many would stay around after college..

anyways im rambling here..But bottom lines is there are a few issues at hand that need to be addressed. There are a few great ideas to get the numbers up and save what we all love here. 

Maybe the topic at hand here is just something that has to be done to buy time and try to save Finger shooting as a whole until the numbers improve. I understand the differences in the two classes, but after all you are both shooting a compound with fingers. I say you should Unite and together become strong again!


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## grantmac

2413gary said:


> You should try to help make our sport grow instead of Constantly tearing it down.


Transitioning all finger shooters to recurve BB would do exactly that. Create a larger class with rules that are consistent across all organizations.

If someone really cares about being competitive they will change with the rules. If they just care about shooting locally then they are welcome to shoot against all the other compounds, just like WA rules.

-Grant


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## itbeso

What the nonsight divisions need is personalities and someone to dislike enough to get motivated to beat him or her. The logical volunteer for that position is..............ME. I don't know why, but back in the day, it seemed like everyone was taking potshots at me on a regular basis. To this day, I do not know their reasoning, but I put it down to jealousy as There just wasn't any hope of beating me over the last 7 years I shot. I hate to say it this way, but, before I got back into recurve shooting last year, there was no one around that could hang with Alan Eagleton. After beating him a couple of times, it seems like there was a revival in the recurve ranks. If you peruse the scores being shot and posted on trad talk, It is exciting to see the quality of archers blossoming in our ranks. If you get a chance, go back through old Archery Magazine from the eighties, the bowhunter class was one of the featured classes at all championship shoots, mainly because of the rivalry between Jim Brown and Myself and the quality of the scores posted by us tournament after tournament. Instead of sneaking into tournaments with your heads down, act like you own the place. With all that said, you guys better get to practicing because this 67 year old man is almost back and there are going to be some "rumbles in the jungles.":darkbeer:


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## rsarns

Really no new shooters coming? Of the 211 shooters at our State Multicolor indoor this weekend (Vegas target) we had over 100 non sight compound youths. This was just one of the 3 sites the shoot was held at. What WE as members and promoters of archery and the NFAA need to figure out ..is how to keep their interest in OUR great sport. Those were just the NASP students, we also had a respectable turnout of JOAD BB and Oly (FSL/R) students. Now back to the original post, I respect all the inputs of the legends on here and thank you Denny for providing your insight. I for one am all for combining BH and BB, as a BH and Trad shooter I have no fear...


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## rsarns

itbeso said:


> What the nonsight divisions need is personalities and someone to dislike enough to get motivated to beat him or her. The logical volunteer for that position is..............ME. I don't know why, but back in the day, it seemed like everyone was taking potshots at me on a regular basis. To this day, I do not know their reasoning, but I put it down to jealousy as There just wasn't any hope of beating me over the last 7 years I shot. I hate to say it this way, but, before I got back into recurve shooting last year, there was no one around that could hang with Alan Eagleton. After beating him a couple of times, it seems like there was a revival in the recurve ranks. If you peruse the scores being shot and posted on trad talk, It is exciting to see the quality of archers blossoming in our ranks. If you get a chance, go back through old Archery Magazine from the eighties, the bowhunter class was one of the featured classes at all championship shoots, mainly because of the rivalry between Jim Brown and Myself and the quality of the scores posted by us tournament after tournament. Instead of sneaking into tournaments with your heads down, act like you own the place. With all that said, you guys better get to practicing because this 67 year old man is almost back and there are going to be some "rumbles in the jungles.":darkbeer:


I cannot believe it... YOU???? LOL You are my inspiration Ben......  Inspire me to shoot more, and do my best to beat you... The scores people are shooting is awesome!!


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## 2413gary

You guys better bring an extra shirt to Vegas because when I get done moping the floor you are going to need to clean up a little.:tongue:


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## itbeso

The gauntlet has been laid. Let the games begin. Friday, league 300 Nfaa round. Sunday, California state indoor championships, 450 Vegas face. Both will be shot with Trad equipment. W&W inno max riser, W&W ex power limbs,45#. 2314 x7 arrows.


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## itbeso

2413gary said:


> You guys better bring an extra shirt to Vegas because when I get done moping the floor you are going to need to clean up a little.:tongue:


At Vegas, I'm going to reprise the Al Pacino role in Scarface, " let me introduce you to my little friend, my pse magnaflite". Yeah, that one, 438- 450 round, 1988, still state record Bowhunter class, 526 hunter round,1988, still Nfaa record, Bowhunter or barebow,. Of course, Rick Stark is the defending champion, and until someone beats him, he is the man to beat, so all the other talk is just that.


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## J. Wesbrock

grantmac said:


> If someone really cares about being competitive they will change with the rules.
> 
> -Grant


Exactly. If someone want to be competitive in the NFAA, they will change to shoot within the NFAA rules. The same goes for IBO, ASA, IFAA, Regions, and any other organization.


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## rsarns

itbeso said:


> At Vegas, I'm going to reprise the Al Pacino role in Scarface, " let me introduce you to my little friend, my pse magnaflite". Yeah, that one, 438- 450 round, 1988, still state record Bowhunter class, 526 hunter round,1988, still Nfaa record, Bowhunter or barebow,. Of course, Rick Stark is the defending champion, and until someone beats him, he is the man to beat, so all the other talk is just that.


Exactly..... darn... you are breaking out the hardware? Going to be interesting.. Lots of recurves showing up....


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## itbeso

rsarns said:


> Exactly..... darn... you are breaking out the hardware? Going to be interesting.. Lots of recurves showing up....


Ren, you probably don't have to worry too much about me for the indoor shoots. I would like to peak in May and keep that level through August. But then again, when they blow the whistle, my competitive juices start flowing.


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## rsarns

itbeso said:


> Ren, you probably don't have to worry too much about me for the indoor shoots. I would like to peak in May and keep that level through August. But then again, when they blow the whistle, my competitive juices start flowing.


Ben, you are always at your competitive peak... its in our DNA. Soon as the bow goes into the hand...  With all the scores I am seeing and the way I shot this weekend, I should bring extra money to Vegas, as I'll need it for the tables. That'll be the only place I have a chance of winning anything.. LOL


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## itbeso

rsarns said:


> Ben, you are always at your competitive peak... its in our DNA. Soon as the bow goes into the hand...  With all the scores I am seeing and the way I shot this weekend, I should bring extra money to Vegas, as I'll need it for the tables. That'll be the only place I have a chance of winning anything.. LOL


Kind of reminds me of a state shoot many years ago. One of the Ca. bowhunters told me he was going to get me that weekend because he was shooting 255 14 field target scores regularly in practice. At the end of the day, I shot 522 and he ended up with 444. Wait till they blow the whistle and the scores are posted. It is exciting to see all the great scores being shot, though. It is nice to see a revival of finger non sight shooters coming forth. We will have to practice to keep up with the group.


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## krmccubbins

Oh man I missed out on the talkin crap for Vegas. I cant wait things have been clicking for me and feel great. Ive been workin hard the last three years since getting back into the sport, I want to compete with the best and feel like Iam close. I love the level of competition at Vegas and wish there were more like it. If it takes combining BB @ BH I'm all about it as a younger shooter.


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## Gapmaster

I don't know Ben. Sounds like a bunch of red neck noise comming out of you and Gary. Are you guys going to show up at Redding with your clown suits on? Don't forget the Visine and sun glasses because me and my partner gonna be lighting up those dots. Ohhhhhh it's crying time again etc. LOL


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## itbeso

Gapmaster said:


> I don't know Ben. Sounds like a bunch of red neck noise comming out of you and Gary. Are you guys going to show up at Redding with your clown suits on? Don't forget the Visine and sun glasses because me and my partner gonna be lighting up those dots. Ohhhhhh it's crying time again etc. LOL


Your partner had better be a strong man because he's going to have to carry your over the hill self for at least 67 out of the 70 targets at redding. Besides, you talking like that will probably scare off a lot of the current crop of instinctors and we need good numbers there this year. There are a good new group of barebow shooters who concentrate on 3-d only. My only thought is they can only shoot out to 33 yards or they are just skeered that they will get shown up by all the left coasters.


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## Gapmaster

There's targets over 33 yards at Redding? And there is 70 of them? I guess I'm going to have to change my practice sessions. I've been practicing 16 1/2 yards. Figured I would cut that gap in half for 33. No matter. I'll still go to watch the Barnum and Baily act. And my partner? If I need a lift he is deffinately the guy that can do it. He must be using the S.T.A.R. system because he never misses. You'll like him. He knows about all the dog and pony acts. And his woods are flying really good so you better be ready.


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## itbeso

I know it's still early in the new year Gapmaster, but, your team and mine might be the only ones to show up if lack of responses are any indication. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned the " Magnaflite", 26 years later, it still strikes fear into the hearts of non sight shooters. IT would be nice to see Boyd Koehler, Rick Bromley, Dave Lewis, Dave Camacho, and a host of the other posters on here , show up and take their licking, all in good competition mind you. I can just see the wheels turning in some heads now, " who does that over the hill $*& think he is, I'm going to start practicing hard now and show him". I'll just say this once, the experimenting is over. All those who were at Redding last year that beat me and think how I shot there is indicative of what's left in the tank should show up this year and see what it used to be like in the old days.


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## Gapmaster

Well they all must be scared because they are not responding. I guess they figured the forum beating is easier than the Redding beating. Because if they weren't scared they would answer after getting ----------um-------------invited.. Because if they weren't scared they would answer. Because if they weren't scared they would answer. Because if they weren't scared they would answer.

Ha ha ha, anyway, all in fun. I hope they all know all the badgering is all in the name of fun. It would be nice though to see all the non-sight shooters that participate here on the forum to be able to show for the shoot. If I can go and play as bad as I shoot anyone should be able to go and have fun. If they don't show up though, my team is whipping your team pal. In fact, I'll go as far to say that if your team beats my team I'll sit on the back of the 88 yard elk target and sing everyone a love song.


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## 2413gary

Ben we all know there is something left in the tank. But you better plug the leak before Redding cause I am going to be cracking my cam and 1/2:wink:


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## itbeso

2413gary said:


> Ben we all know there is something left in the tank. But you better plug the leak before Redding cause I am going to be cracking my cam and 1/2:wink:


It's about time somebody had the cajones to step up. Where are all the guys I let borrow my crown while I was over irritating the freestylers. Sciacca, Koehler, Eatmon, Bromley,Daley, Rosario, and yes, you too, Gary. The crown is being reclaimed and there is interest due.:mg:


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## FS560

With all this trash talking, you guys sound like wanna-be freestylers. Or maybe freestyle is still in your blood now. Who would have thought.......... Maybe hell does freeze over.


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## zestycj7

Ben,
I will be at Redding again this year, bringing my wife this time too. I have to let her enjoy what is Redding.
This time I will make sure my string and calbles don't streach on the ride up sitting in the trunk of my car like last year.
Then I might be able to hit some of the targets...:wink:
Don.


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## rsarns

I can't wait for Redding... I am running low on the money since Redding and Nevada City.... LOL


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## itbeso

zestycj7 said:


> Ben,
> I will be at Redding again this year, bringing my wife this time too. I have to let her enjoy what is Redding.
> This time I will make sure my string and calbles don't streach on the ride up sitting in the trunk of my car like last year.
> Then I might be able to hit some of the targets...:wink:
> Don.


It's good to see you on board again, Don.


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## itbeso

rsarns said:


> I can't wait for Redding... I am running low on the money since Redding and Nevada City.... LOL


I'm going to have a trailer there for those who need 30 day loans, I figure you will be on the first customers after shooting is done.:darkbeer:


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## itbeso

FS560 said:


> With all this trash talking, you guys sound like wanna-be freestylers. Or maybe freestyle is still in your blood now. Who would have thought.......... Maybe hell does freeze over.


And you thought you freestylers had all the fun.:wink:


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## krmccubbins

All this talk about Redding Vegas is first.


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## itbeso

krmccubbins said:


> All this talk about Redding Vegas is first.


Ain't no team event at Vegas, Kris. Plus, everyone shoots and then go in 40 different directions. Not much comraderie there. Plus, 20 yards is borinnnng. When are you going to get your scaredy cat dad back to shooting with us? Why don't you and he team up at Redding?


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## krmccubbins

itbeso said:


> Ain't no team event at Vegas, Kris. Plus, everyone shoots and then go in 40 different directions. Not much comraderie there. Plus, 20 yards is borinnnng. When are you going to get your scaredy cat dad back to shooting with us? Why don't you and he team up at Redding?


He is actually shooting again so maybe next year. I was going to come this year but am getting married in June so that takes my vacation days. Would be fun. I hear you about Vegas, I love it tho.


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## itbeso

krmccubbins said:


> He is actually shooting again so maybe next year. I was going to come this year but am getting married in June so that takes my vacation days. Would be fun. I hear you about Vegas, I love it tho.


Bad start to a marriage if your future wife doesn't understand priorities.:teeth:


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## krmccubbins

itbeso said:


> Bad start to a marriage if your future wife doesn't understand priorities.:teeth:



It's my work not my lady she is all about archery. I think I would have used my vacation on worlds in SD this year tho. That shoot isn't in US very often. Last years nationals was my first outdoor tournament in 17yrs, but I'm hooked again. I don't see myself ever putting my bow again. I shoot everyday now.


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## rsarns

itbeso said:


> I'm going to have a trailer there for those who need 30 day loans, I figure you will be on the first customers after shooting is done.:darkbeer:


Ben, Do I need to post pictures of my checks from last year again??? Wait to you see who I am (hoping) teaming up with for Redding.... Just hand all your money straight to us...... Oh ya.....


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## itbeso

rsarns said:


> Ben, Do I need to post pictures of my checks from last year again??? Wait to you see who I am (hoping) teaming up with for Redding.... Just hand all your money straight to us...... Oh ya.....


Rick is too damn tired from carrying you last year at Oregon safari, so it must be someone else.:wink:


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## itbeso

krmccubbins said:


> It's my work not my lady she is all about archery. I think I would have used my vacation on worlds in SD this year tho. That shoot isn't in US very often. Last years nationals was my first outdoor tournament in 17yrs, but I'm hooked again. I don't see myself ever putting my bow again. I shoot everyday now.


Kris, as talented as you are I have always been sad to see that talent on the sidelines. Just remember, you only go through life once.


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## krmccubbins

itbeso said:


> Kris, as talented as you are I have always been sad to see that talent on the sidelines. Just remember, you only go through life once.


No more sidelines for this guy, I shoot every shoot I possibly can.


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## rsarns

itbeso said:


> Rick is too damn tired from carrying you last year at Oregon safari, so it must be someone else.:wink:



LOL.... yep.... he hasn't shot since that after carrying me all weekend. Tom Daley was hobbled all the way until Nevada City after carrying me in Redding also.... Tim at Nevada City carried me too.... hey wait I took money at all 3 events... hmmm whats the common item... oh ya I had great partners.


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## grantmac

Getting back to the original question:

I've given this some thought. Back in the day when all compounds were using some sort of wheel, had fairly long ATA and shot pretty slow I think having a division between the styles made a lot of sense.

Now you've got BH guys shooting bows going 280-288fps. That is a VERY huge advantage for most of the rounds with the possible exception of indoor. The holding weight is low enough that a very high anchor really isn't that difficult to shoot so even with a 50 yd POD the gaps stay really small.

The BB guys are still limited to round wheels, long ATA and soft walls; lucky to be getting 230fps. Being able to stringwalk can help for some of the really long and really close targets, but not as much as you'd think compared with nice tight gaps.

So really the aiming methods don't seem like a huge differentiation to me (especially for 3D). What we are down to is the stabs and clicker.

This is where I think the compromise could be made to go to the BH stab configuration, then allow the clicker. Although I know there are ways of producing a "clicker-like" shot trigger without breaking the BH rules prohibiting draw-check devices.

Any thoughts?

-Grant

P.S. Yes, I'm a Trad/Rec BB guy. But I have shot Comp BB as well and I thought it was pretty cool except I had nobody to shoot against. Fun launching those full-length 2712s down range!


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## 2413gary

I don't think the clicker is a big deal with the hard wall now draw length is not a problem. So as far as a draw check no sweat. It's more of a let go now dummy (lol) the stabilizer is a different game with the back bars and length.

Gary


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## itbeso

I think all you barebow and bowhunter types will end up getting just what you deserve, which will probably be an elimination of your style of shooting. An honest effort is being made to assemble enough participants to warrant keeping your style of shooting alive in the Nfaa and you don't have enough common sense to band together and come up with with a consensus set of rules that will work for the majority. Every one always wants to protect their own little niche rather than look beyond for the bigger picture. leave the barebow rules in effect and lets get this merger completed. Then work on the Nfaa to get the classes cut down to 3 or 4 styles of shooting. Make a championship bowl mean something.JMO


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## krmccubbins

Like I have said before, I will shoot against anyone as long as they have no sights or release. We all know it comes down to your release, form and follow thru. I don't see a clicker long stabilizer or anything else as an advantage. When you are shooting good it doesn't matter what is in your hand.


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## Gapmaster

It has never been an issue for me to shoot aganist whoever with whatever they have to shoot. Long stabilizers, clickers, counting servings, pin sights, peep sights, I could care less. Itbeso's assertions are correct. Worrying about all the petty little things will destroy the finial outcome of what is trying to be created. If you really believe you lost a tournament because somebody had a longer stabilizer than you or used a clicker then to me it simply means you weren't prepared or didn't practice enough or your bow setup could have been tuned better. Let the BB rules take over. It doesn't mean you have to use long stabilizers. You will just have a choice now to do a set up any way that suits your mood that day. Aiming method and clicker will just be a choice. I don't think there is any advantages or disadvantages one way or the other. Save the division. Combine BH and BB using BB rules and move forward before the opportunity goes away and somebodys class is lost forever. Just my 2 cents for whatever that is worth.


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## 2413gary

:thumbs_up


itbeso said:


> I think all you barebow and bowhunter types will end up getting just what you deserve, which will probably be an elimination of your style of shooting. An honest effort is being made to assemble enough participants to warrant keeping your style of shooting alive in the Nfaa and you don't have enough common sense to band together and come up with with a consensus set of rules that will work for the majority. Every one always wants to protect their own little niche rather than look beyond for the bigger picture. leave the barebow rules in effect and lets get this merger completed. Then work on the Nfaa to get the classes cut down to 3 or 4 styles of shooting. Make a championship bowl mean something.JMO


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## Boyd

Agree...




itbeso said:


> I think all you barebow and bowhunter types will end up getting just what you deserve, which will probably be an elimination of your style of shooting. An honest effort is being made to assemble enough participants to warrant keeping your style of shooting alive in the Nfaa and you don't have enough common sense to band together and come up with with a consensus set of rules that will work for the majority. Every one always wants to protect their own little niche rather than look beyond for the bigger picture. leave the barebow rules in effect and lets get this merger completed. Then work on the Nfaa to get the classes cut down to 3 or 4 styles of shooting. Make a championship bowl mean something.JMO


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## itbeso

The more I think about it, what kind of scores could we bowhunters have shot with long stabs, levels and even a small amount of stringwalking at the short targets. Scaaarrrryyyy.lol


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## archer_nm

Vote time is near, please make sure you talk to your Directors and let them know how you feel about all of the agenda items


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## 2413gary

California is on board


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## rsarns

2413gary said:


> California is on board


Your director actually listens.....


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## CurryBB

2413gary said:


> California is on board


Thank you Gary. We certainly are on board. I'm new to barebow and can shoot most other styles, but it will always be my fav. I would hate to see it go so soon, especially in the women's division.


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## fuelracerpat

Haven't been here in a couple of years, work got in the way...but if BB goes away in the NFAA - and I still pay my dues - I will never be back. The BH shooters have always been welcome in the style, that shouldn't change.
I just got an e-mail from Denny Cline to let my Director know how I felt and I did this promptly.


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## 2413gary

Barebow and Bowhunter will always be in the NFAA


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## archer_nm

Pat no one has said that BB will be going anywhere


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## 2413gary

Petition failed everything stays the same NFAA meeting is in progress so far.


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## rsarns

Heaven forbid we use common sense. Why would we want to combine classes and make things competitive?? Lets just give out bowls to everyone who registers.


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## Humdinger

Failed!?!  Was it just flat out rejected or not enough support from other states??? What exactly does it take for a Petition to go through over there?


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## itbeso

It would take someone Or a group of someones with a small amount of common sense, to take over the Nfaa and straighten this cluster&*(^ out.


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## archer_nm

It flat out failed, I counted the votes for it one one hand. What else can I say


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## archerm3

I don't see the reason all these organizations are trying to restructure classes that are underpopulated. I fail to see how it costs any extra to host a class that only a few join. All you have to do is adjust the awards/payout so that there is a minimum number X participants for a certain trophy level or payout, otherwise just print out 35 cent certificates on powerpoint and print them on quality paper. People that have the capability to shoot particular disciplines will migrate to the underpopulated classes for easy wins, and therefore you maintain variety in shooting disciplines. Otherwise you willingly drop potential paying members/shooters from your future tournaments/clubs/organizations. 

Keep the classes the same I say. People just need the make the argument I made above; allow the class but just don't feel obliged to offer top notch trophies unless you have enough participants to cover your costs.

I have yet to shoot an R100 tourney purely out of spite of not offering a fingers class.

Most people want to shoot against other people that shoot THEIR own way. It's not selfish. Its not a way to shoot to get an attendance trophy even though thats what many people think. If people feel the need to tell others how to shoot and with what equipment for that sake of hosting a class, then the logical end result is just have ONE class for all shooters, all disciplines.


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## archerm3

Here are the equipment advantages that I see and should be classed away from each other for fairness.

Crossbow
Release 
Scope or not
Sight or barebow
Compound vs longbow/recurve

I don't see stabilizers or clickers offering any advantage in scores. As far as barebow I don't see stringwalking/gapping or anything else as providing much of an advantage either.


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## dragonheart II

In a 2012 interview that was done with longtime accomplished finger shooter and former Olympic coach Tim Strickland, he expressed that the clicker is a huge advantage, much more than the archers aiming style. Here is a link to the interview. A cool read BTW.

http://archersparadoxdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/a-discussion-with-tim-strickland/


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## archer_nm

All of you that had reservations will be happy to know it did not pass


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