# Critique HER form.....



## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

Ok, this is my girlfriend's first bow season and I'm looking for any pointers that I could pass on to her to help her with her form. I've always thought the bowstring sat away from her face a little too far at full draw. Draw length to short???? 

Also, things I'm not seeing maybe that could guide her to shooting better than she is. Ladys, guys, anybody...... help us out if you can please!  

Thanks, Rick


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

Looks too long to me. Her upper body is leaning back too much.


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## goatranch (Sep 11, 2004)

A little too long! Also, looks like she could relax bow arm more. Notice bulging muscle below sling.


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

atleast an inch too long. Good luck


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## goatranch (Sep 11, 2004)

My opinion. If draw length is shortened...she could relax and drop her bow arm alittle. That would bring string in to face where it should be.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

one more......


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## Zen Archery (Jul 27, 2004)

It's worth paying for lessons from a local pro. They will not only make the right mechanical adjustments on the bow they will get you off the starting line more confident. 

1). Agree with above - too long.
2). Relax the hand grip. Looks like she is gripping it. She only needs to put the rear of the grip against her hand and use 1 or 2 fingers to brace the front of the bow.

It's really hard to critique with just a back shot. Need to see anchoring points etc...


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## goatranch (Sep 11, 2004)

Looking at the front view, it does look too short. I will defer to more experienced archers. Good luck.


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

I agree she is leaning back too much which is normally a sign of too long a draw, but notice the string is not even to the end of her nose. I think her draw is OK she just needs to straighten up her body / head and get the string on back to the tip of her nose.


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## huntin' moma (Aug 13, 2005)

It is hard to tell with second photo. On the first she is leaning back alot with her bow arm shoulder all shrugged up. On the 2nd pic she is alot more straight and it looks ok. Have you tried moving her peep so that she might be better aligned or maybe change the loop so that the distance from string to nose is better. Just a regular shooters opinion. :teeth:


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## Papick (Jul 13, 2004)

or could it be that she is faced with too much poundage to draw?? Causing her to lean back while drawing and staying in that position(bad habit/form).


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

huntin' moma said:


> It is hard to tell with second photo. On the first she is leaning back alot with her bow arm shoulder all shrugged up. On the 2nd pic she is alot more straight and it looks ok. Have you tried moving her peep so that she might be better aligned or maybe change the loop so that the distance from string to nose is better. Just a regular shooters opinion. :teeth:



I do agree folks she was leaning alot at the time the first pic was taken (two months difference between pics), she seems to be getting more vertical as she gets more familiar with it. She is shooting consistent though. You guys have picked up on some of the same things I have! Thanks :thumbs_up  

Anymore? I know there's alot more women who shoot. :smile:


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

Papick said:


> or could it be that she is faced with too much poundage to draw?? Causing her to lean back while drawing and staying in that position(bad habit/form).



Good point papick..... I started her out at 37lbs and it was VERY easy for her to draw. She has since moved up to 44lbs and its still somewhat a breeze. Good point though! :teeth: 

I guess I should add these pics were taken about a month ago, so maybe this weekend I'll take another and you guys can point pout any other flaws. Thanks.


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## Adkhunter (Jan 11, 2005)

Glad to see that you use the resources here.

I think her DL is too short and she needs to relax that bow hand. Have her, after drawing, just place the index finger to the tip of her thumb. Most of that weight can be supported by the meaty part of the thumb. Don't let her set her palm into the grip. Have her roll the left elbow out a tad more. This will help create that shoulder tension she needs.
Tell her to lean into the bow not away.

She just needs a little work that is all and she'll be shooting better than you!

Adk


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## dartman (Apr 22, 2004)

The back lighting in the second pic makes it difficult to decipher.

In regards to the string being away from her face, perhaps she's trying (she may be totally unaware of this) to look *at* the peep instead of *through* the peep. This is a very common error with firearms for shooters with little experience with aperture sights; it could also occur with bows.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

You won't be able to guage her correct draw length till you fix the posture. She should be standing straight up. Get her to lean heavily towards the target at the hips and that should fix it. (she'll feel like she's leaning forward, however it will make her straight)


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## basic instinct (May 28, 2004)

Is she shooting against the wall of the bow, or does she shoot in the valley, She looks like in the front shot she is not using any back tension, Make sure the peep comes to her, not her to the peep.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

She is choking the living daylights out of that grip. Did you make her mad? Is her peep in the right location? Have her draw the bow and come to a natural anchor with her eyes closed, good posture and head straight and then tell her to open her eyes. She should be looking right through the peep without moving her head or body. Where are her anchor points? Personally I think if she moves her release hand up, this will bring the string to the tip of her nose and also level out her forearm and elbow. It looks like she is holding her release elbow too high which is probably preventing her to hold the draw well with her back muscles, which may be the reason she is leaning back (to compensate for this).


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*

Hello
First off i would take her back to 37lbs draw weigh.

Then get her to stand up right and notice her feet placement.And angle she is turned to the target.

And like its been said before .While at 37 lbs and her body and head is up right get her to close her eyes and draw.And locate peep to her eye level.Do this at 10 yards with target at her level.Then after you have her natural stance form. Then up grade poundage till you see her form changeing ,to a recurve stance.

Now pictures are decieving .But that arrow looks like it is nocked to high.

Also i notice see might need a chest guard.

So run her through the mill and do bring another picture of her changes.

Unk :angel:


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

First, I agree with Marcus on not being able to determin correct draw lenght until posture is correct. Also many people and especially women tend to lean back just to offset the physical weight of the bow -- they shift their center of gravity over to compensate for the additional weight in front of them.

I agree that she appears to really have a hold on that handle. A "grip" is actually a poor name for it :wink: as it should not be gripped.

Try to get her posture correct and have her keep that bow shoulder down and seated in the socket. Drop the #s off the bow until her posture is correct -- ut will be easier for her to get the correct posture with lower pounds, even if she can draw it easily.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*Good reply's*



Marcus said:


> You won't be able to guage her correct draw length till you fix the posture. She should be standing straight up. Get her to lean heavily towards the target at the hips and that should fix it. (she'll feel like she's leaning forward, however it will make her straight)



Some things I need to fill in are...... that she was fitted and measured by an Archery Pro shop here in the area for her bow. 

Some have also said...... that she is gripping the BOW too hard. Trust me, she IS NOT! It is very decieving (from the pic), but when she draws she opens her fingers and VERY lightly raps them back around. NOT gripping the bow hard with them.

I think you guys have found some legit problems and I really believe that with her form (body) correction it will also help with her shooting. :thumbs_up 

Here's what we talked about last night...... I told her of the form problem that MANY have stated here (leaning) and she said "really". So, she wasn't aware that she was doing that to that extreme. She is very open for changing, and can't wait to get back out and work on it!

Here's what were going to work on..... Correcting her stance or posture (lean), lower her release elbow, and lower her weight down to 40lbs. I'll post some pics after the weekend to show the improvements!  :beer:  

THANKS for your HELP folks.... :teeth: :thumbs_up 

Rick


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*Adk.......*



Adkhunter said:


> Glad to see that you use the resources here.
> 
> I think her DL is too short and she needs to relax that bow hand. Have her, after drawing, just place the index finger to the tip of her thumb. Most of that weight can be supported by the meaty part of the thumb. Don't let her set her palm into the grip. Have her roll the left elbow out a tad more. This will help create that shoulder tension she needs.
> Tell her to lean into the bow not away.
> ...


What do you mean exactly by "roll her left elbow out more"? Could you explain please! :smile:


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## Adkhunter (Jan 11, 2005)

This is easier to show than to describe, I tell ya!

Before you tell her to do it I want you to grab your own bow and do it. Hold your bow at full draw then with your bow arm rotate the arm so that the elbow points to the ground. You should be able to see none or darn close to none of your forearm. Now, feel the tension that it created in your shoulder?
That is what it is supposed to feal like. Then work on the grip, or lack of that is so that your fingers are in the "A-ok" position.

As I looked back on her grip it does look like you could pluck her middle, ring and pinky fingers. That it's good.

Hope this helps

Adk


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Drawlength is fine. You just need to get rid of the lean. Using more of the mid ab's.. squeezing the belley button towards the back bone and squeezing the buttocks before drawing might help to keep her torso upright.


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

He release elbow looks fine to me as well.

Don't *intentionally* roll the bow elbow, but get the correct grip and it will be in place where it needs to be without adding muscle tension that you would get by intentionally rolling it.

Grip needs to be all to the thumb side of the life-line. knuckles should be about at 45° angle from the shelf. Hand relaxed.


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## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

robVos is correct about the grip. Perfect picture of correct grip. The fingers do not go aroung the handle, the index finger holds the front of the bow. The 45 degree angle of your knuckles turns your elbow somewhat outward not downward. This is also correct. It makes your forearm clear the string, notice you will never see a pro use an armguard and every one of them Ive seen shoot holds a bow this way. It makes your shoulder lock into the joint correctly, thus using less muscle to hold the bow. Her draw length looks too short. The string does not come to the nose or corner of her mouth. Also, her hand is high up on her face rather than near her jaw. If your hand is up to high the string cant get near your face. As far as poundage, you should be able to sit indian style on the floor and draw your bow comfortably. If you cant, than turn that puppy down. One last thing, looks like the sling is too freaking tight. It should not have any tension on your wrist, arm etc, It will cause the bow to torque itself on recoil.


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## BUCKSTER (Jan 20, 2003)

First off......how is she shooting and grouping her arrows>>>>>If we are looking for perfect form...that she would loose on that contest...but if your more worried about how shes grouping how she feels after shooting...is she sore in any area...does she feel things aren't right?????

The only thing I see she might want to change is how high he drawing arm is...notice that in both pictures she look like she has a chicken wing....have her bring down that arm and see if she feels comfortable in that postion....she may have to move her peep, but it will help on getting the T form..and also in the leaning back issue others have broought up.

Good luck and I hope this is helpful to you and her!


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*Thanks for the ADVICE!*

Adk, Merlin, Robvos, boojo35, BUCKSTER, Thank you for your input!

She is work in progress and I knew if I came here I'd get SOUND advice!

I believe her drawlength is correct and with taking some weight off the bow, getting her form PROPER in ALL areas, (release arm a little straighter, torso more upright and vertical, proper grip) that she will IMPROVE! As of now she's grouping the about the size of a small saucer at 20yds. Not bad but, I think she can do better and with my help and others she'll be one salty hunter very SOON! :thumbs_up 

I'll post some more pictures on Monday of the improvements.

Thanks again, Rick


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## Dthbyhoyt (Dec 4, 2004)

Tooooooo long


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## THE FISH (Jun 26, 2005)

First I will give my opinion on what the issues are with her form 1) Release arm is too high. 2) head is leaning in too far to the string and she is still not touching the string with her nose. 3) Grip is tense and should be relaxed. 
Now the good thing---- In the second pic her bow arm is bent at the elbow at a good angle.

The solution------ add at least an inch to the draw length. This will bring the string back farther to her face. It should eliminate her need to move her head to the string, and at the same time allow her release arm to come back and down to a more comfortable position. My opinion on her body leaning back is that it also is a result of compensation for short draw length, attempting to get the string closer to her face.
Remove the peep and adjust the draw length to correct her form. Also turn the wieght back down until proper form is achieved. Once you have her in good form then put the peep back in and have her draw with her eyes closed.
Once she is comfortable and properly anchored she should open her eyes and tell you if the peep centers around the sight housing properly. She should not have to adjust to center the peep. If the peep needs to go up or down she can tell you and you can move it while she is at full draw. Repeat this process until she can draw, anchor, and open her eyes and the peep lines up without her having to move to center the sight in the peep. Once that is achieved you can tie in the peep, and she can start shooting, and sighting in the bow.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

There is no use doing this really. There are about 30000 solutions that people think they have. 

Turning the arm over so that the elbow joint is at a 90. Well thats what Lee Ki Sik Advocates. My girlfriend managed to learn how to do it in the span of a few months. It makes for better arm clearance and a more solid bow arm That is just the start however. 

Marcus knows what he is talking about. He just had a student that is now moved on to the AIS.. the AIS is the Australian institute of sport. They train Olympic level atheletes. The head coach is Lee Ki Sik (former Korean head coach).

The picture below is my girlfriend and another girl from my club, Kristen.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*FORM Update....*

Ok, i took these updated pics two nights ago. Well prior to taking we worked on some of the form problems that I and others noticed here. (THANKS) :smile: 

I believe that we are headed in the right direction! :thumbs_up

She has reduced tension on her GRIP, straightened her body out ALOT and anchoring a little more solid. Also, I reduced the poundage down to 42lbs, so i took five pounds off.

Her shooting honestly hasn't changed much although. I do feel with time and correcting her form problems that we are on the right track!   :thumbs_up 

Thanks for the help, Rick.


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

Much improved!!


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## Chinchgub (Feb 3, 2005)

Yes, very impressive....


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

I think the others have gotten most of the problems in sight. However, I still think the bow is going to end up too long. I think if you shorten the drawlength (is the bow adjustable) about an inch it would help her stand erect. She really is leaning badly. Then if need be, once she gets her body vertical you could gradually adjust the bow longer as needed. And turning the weight down helps too.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*bfisher....*

With all due respect..... We've already turned draw weight down 5lbs and worked exclusively on her form. 

The initial pics in this post were from several months back and admittedly she was LEANING BADLY. If you'll look at the recent pic (4 posts up) you'll see the lean is ABOUT eliminated.

No, the bow is not adjustable it is @ 25" draw length. 

She was fitted at a pro-shop and I watched as she was fitted also. The pro-shop fella is a friend of mine and he MADE SURE she was standing upright and pulling to the proper point. He did this two or three times to get CONSISTENT anchoring and POSTURE results. The leaning came from her BEING A NOVICE and ME not watching close enough in the beginning. Were working on it though! 

Another thing to mention...... She has GREAT DRIVE and DETERMINATION and a HUGE willingness to DO BETTER!

Thanks fellas, Rick


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

And that she has. Keep up the good work. How's her grouping?


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

*Better!!*



michihunter said:


> And that she has. Keep up the good work. How's her grouping?


From several weeks ago...... and its funny, she shoots dots better than the 3D target. I'm just the opposite, WEIRD!!


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

That picture looks much better.

If she's not getting better, have her try shooting straight armed. Bent arm doesn't work for everyone just like straight arm doesn't work for everyone.
Although if the bow is not adjustable that may not be possible.

There is no way she is long on the draw length. You will always have people making that claim because they were shooting long. I see just as many people with short draws now that that "fad" has happened as I've ever seen with long draws.

Easy way to get rid of the backwards lean is to consciously lean forward.


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## MerlinMax3000 (Dec 7, 2004)

her bow hand still looks off she needs to rotate the bottom clockwise. U should not be able to see her life line, if u look at the latest pic u can see her life line.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*

Hello
I think she has realy improved. :thumbs_up 

From what iam viewing in the picture she has no problems , that will efect her shooting.

Now I would like to see a full picture of a complete stance showing her at full draw .
Looks Good
Unk :smile:


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## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

I think her main problem is she is shooting her arrows from the wrong end. Thay appear to be in the target nock end first


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## strungout (May 24, 2005)

I don't know, I think I like the overall shape of things more than anything...but I am a dog and that is just me.. :mg: 

On the form, I want to see that back elbow down more, a straighter line through and parrallel with arrow. Rotate that hand and let bow float more into the hand. Shoulder blades sqweezing together as if trying to hold a dollar bill could work wonders on making sure things are relaxed where they should be. Ask her to try these two things with her eyes closed and see if string comes to tip of nose and find out where the peep ends up. Looks more and more to me like a need for tad more length. 
On the elbow thing, I like a position that keeps shoulder down and relaxed. Mine hinges at about a 45 degree angle with thumb coming back to tickle nose.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

Top Cat said:


> I think her main problem is she is shooting her arrows from the wrong end. Thay appear to be in the target nock end first


Crazy how that happens.  You should see her trying to knock them broadheads up.


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## ratfart (Jan 20, 2005)

I think the turnaround is very impressive. You two have done a lot of homework!
I see a lot of the shoulder blade posture she is exhibiting as a Physical Therapist in a sports clinic. I treat a lot of archers and have an indoor archery range at work. She looks to be very rhomboid and upper trap dominant. Telling her to "squeeze her shoulder blades together" will likely result in poorer shoulder posture. Her brain will fire the rhomboid to pull the shoulder blade back and that also results in rotating the shoulder blade downward at the shoulder, her elbow will drop as well.
I would cue her to push her arm toward the target while trying to keep the shoulder down. That will pull in the lower trap, serratus anterior and upwardly rotate the shoulder blade and stabilize the shoulder and will likely make her more steady.
Your lower trapezius muscle is vitally important to any task requiring force or stability at the shoulder.
To strengthen that muscle have her try to pull the bottom point of the shoulder blades toward the spot where her bra strap crosses her spine and makes a "+". That gives them the "down and back" idea.
Overall though she looks like she's improving, she seems to enjoy it, so you've got the hard part done!!!
Wish I could get my wife to shoot with me and the kids! You lucky dog! :wink:


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## strungout (May 24, 2005)

What a joker... quoting me with intention to discredit via fancy lingo and in same breath saying "pull the bottom point of the shoulder blades toward the spot where her bra strap crosses her spine and makes a "+". ".  
Not shrugging shoulders has already been implied somewheres in here so thanx for clarifying which muscles and their scientific namesakes.
How about posting up one of them pictures of muscle groups with drawn in arrows.. yadda, yadda so we can all know what yer talkin about..


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## Washi (Jan 23, 2005)

I agree she has improved quite a bit. She looks quite good in the third pic.
As for the first pic I have never seen a female just starting in archery who didn't lean like that at first. A fair amount of guys do too. Also her elbow was probably locked because her shoulder wasn't in the right place so she was extending the elbow to make up for it. I have done it too. Looks like both of those problems are fixed.

I do not agree with the people saying her draw should be shortened. If anything it should be lengthened a little but it looks close enough that I'd probably just not mess with it. It seems like nowadays any time someone is having form problems everone tells them they need to shorten their draw length. That can cause just as many problems.

Besides that the only thing I can see is she does still have the grip too deep into her palm. Another thing just about everyone does when they start.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

This is Marcus's wife. Awsome structural technique.


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## strungout (May 24, 2005)

Washi,

I agree mostly..

And with your mentioning of the word "into" I should clarify my misuse of the word earlier today:
When I said "Rotate that hand and let bow float more into the hand" , I should have said "float more into covering up the lifeline at a diagonal angle next to the fleshy part of palm or thumb.. :thumbs_up 

I like all the shapes and forms of all the ladies..really, I do  :shade: :teeth:


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## stew (Jun 15, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies so I'm sure this has all been covered. 

Open the bow hand and relax the bow arm. Her hand should make a "V" which will prevent strangling the grip. The draw is too long. She is bent way too far backwards. She should be standing erect. It looks like she is leaning her head into the string instead of bringing the string to her. Her draw arm elbow is too high. Lower it so it is level with the ground and inline with the arrow. When you correct the draw length, Have her practice relaxing the shoulder of her draw arm. By doing so she won't become fatigued so quickly.


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## GMM (Jun 19, 2004)

It looks a lot better. After a little more shooting you might refine her form a little. It looks pretty good now, but I think she might be a little more comfortable if she was bone to bone in her right shoulder. Her elbow looks a little high, which will cause her to use extra muscle to hold it back. It isnt much rotation though, just enough to get her elbow in line directly behind the arrow. This will also force her grip to be more towards her thumb and let her relax her bow arm. This will bring the bowstring closer to her face so she wont have to reach at all to anchor. It will help her from getting tired as fast.

It does look a ton better though. Just think she may be out shooting you soon.

GMM


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

GMM said:


> It looks a lot better. After a little more shooting you might refine her form a little. It looks pretty good now, but I think she might be a little more comfortable if she was bone to bone in her right shoulder. Her elbow looks a little high, which will cause her to use extra muscle to hold it back. It isnt much rotation though, just enough to get her elbow in line directly behind the arrow. This will also force her grip to be more towards her thumb and let her relax her bow arm. This will bring the bowstring closer to her face so she wont have to reach at all to anchor. It will help her from getting tired as fast.
> 
> It does look a ton better though. Just think she may be out shooting you soon.
> 
> GMM


Thanks for all the replies on this FORM subject that were currently working on.  

Merlin....... Marcus' lady has great form I do agree! :thumbs_up 

Yes GMM, I hope she is out-shooting me that would make this venture all the more worthwhile. I'll let you guys know when she puts an arrow thru her first deer!   

Cya Rick


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

bowme_2. Erika should have great technique. :thumbs_up She is Australian national champion with a compound I believe.  Her recurve shooting is coming along also. Look for her to make the 2008 Olympics.


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## Vic303 (Aug 7, 2005)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> This is Marcus's wife. Awsome structural technique.


Uh, guys, I somehow doubt it is her 'technique' y'all keep drooling over...I mean eyeballing!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Sure, she's good looking. But her technique is really good on top of that fact. :thumbs_up .


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## strungout (May 24, 2005)

ttt

...just felt the need to double check these shapes & forms again..


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