# Camo painted bow legal for USA Archery?



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Is a camo painted bow within the WA/USA Archery rules, or would it be disallowed like camo clothing? 

I'm not a camo wearer, just asking for someone else.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Afaik, it's still allowed, but there are rumors that it is being considered to not allow it. It resulted in a pretty long thread recently.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2364684


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Is a camo painted bow within the WA/USA Archery rules, or would it be disallowed like camo clothing?
> 
> I'm not a camo wearer, just asking for someone else.


World Archery is adopting rules starting in 2016 where no camo is allowed on anything, i.e. arrows, bows, accessories, etc. and no camo on clothing for the Olympics, World Cups and World championships. http://www.worldarchery.org/Portals...14/Bk3_Art.11.3.3_Art.20.1.1_Bk4_Art.33.1.pdf Combined with the USA Archery dresscode http://www.worldarchery.org/en-us/home/rules/constitutionrules.aspx and its essentially no camo anywhere on anything.

I suggest that all avoid camo of all sorts if there is a possibility of competing in a 2016 World Archery event such as AZ Cup, World Cups, World Championships, PanAm/ParaPan or other sanctioned World Archery events. I don't know if Star events apply to the 2016 no camo WA rules, however to be safe and avoid having to re purchase or paint equipment...avoid camo. This is especially important for youth archers. Often the parents expectation is for local events only, not knowing that with talent and determination, the sky is the limit and that equipment like camo arrows might end up being used internationally.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Serious Fun said:


> ...however to be safe and avoid having to re purchase or paint equipment...avoid camo. This is especially important for youth archers. Often the parents expectation is for local events only, not knowing that with talent and determination, the sky is the limit and that equipment like camo arrows might end up being used internationally.


Those are wise words. I'll be adding that to an FAQ for new students and parents.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Asking American kids to not shoot camo "anything" at a simple domestic star fita event is asinine. 

WTH is this country coming to?


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Asking American kids to not shoot camo "anything" at a simple domestic star fita event is asinine.
> 
> WTH is this country coming to?


That's what happens when USAA follows along with an organization that is ran by members of socialist countries. Hope nobody chews their pop tarts into gun shapes at one of these deals.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Supermag1 said:


> That's what happens when USAA follows along with an organization that is ran by members of socialist countries. Hope nobody chews their pop tarts into gun shapes at one of these deals.


In some countries that hold WA events running around with anything that resembles a weapon in camo gear is a sure way to get shot or at least arrested. Not every country in the world is as infatuated with camo and guns as people in US.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

zal said:


> In some countries that hold WA events running around with anything that resembles a weapon in camo gear is a sure way to get shot or at least arrested. Not every country in the world is as infatuated with camo and guns as people in US.


A WA or USA Archery event is a completely controlled environment - I suspect that someone "running around with anything that resembles a weapon" on the downtown streets is going to get arrested even if they're wearing Ralph Lauren or Armani instead of camo.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal said:


> In some countries that hold WA events running around with anything that resembles a weapon in camo gear is a sure way to get shot or at least arrested. Not every country in the world is as infatuated with camo and guns as people in US.


Not saying they are. But my comment was directed toward star fita events in the U.S. There is absolutely no valid reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to use a camo bow or accessory, or wear camo clothing during a target archery event. None whatsoever.

Many people in the U.S. have ONE BOW that they use for both target and hunting purposes. Many of these are kids or college aged archers, or recreational archers who are just trying out target archery. Rules like this only discourage participation by those people. I have several archers in my JOAD program that only have one bow, and it's camo. Who wants to tell one of these 9 or 10 year-old kids they cannot shoot their bow at a target event? Hmm?


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Not saying they are. But my comment was directed toward star fita events in the U.S. There is absolutely no valid reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to use a camo bow or accessory, or wear camo clothing during a target archery event. None whatsoever.
> 
> Many people in the U.S. have ONE BOW that they use for both target and hunting purposes. Many of these are kids or college aged archers, or recreational archers who are just trying out target archery. Rules like this only discourage participation by those people. I have several archers in my JOAD program that only have one bow, and it's camo. Who wants to tell one of these 9 or 10 year-old kids they cannot shoot their bow at a target event? Hmm?


Very true, but (to the best of my knowledge) the US is one of the few countries that has such a large camo/hunting culture that simply isn't seen in much of the rest of the world. I think that allowing for exceptions for things like camo is an unnecessary splintering of the rules and would be a slippery slope to the same kinds of issues we see with barebow rulings. I don't see it as a discouragement in participation, but rather an encouragement of a different culture of archery.

For every one person that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that there are two more that would be uncomfortable competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Last_Bastion said:


> Very true, but (to the best of my knowledge) the US is one of the few countries that has such a large camo/hunting culture that simply isn't seen in much of the rest of the world. I think that allowing for exceptions for things like camo is an unnecessary splintering of the rules and would be a slippery slope to the same kinds of issues we see with barebow rulings. I don't see it as a discouragement in participation, but rather an encouragement of a different culture of archery.
> 
> For every one person that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that there are two more that would be uncomfortable competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!


John's point was that these kids are being PREVENTED from competing because they only have one bow, and it's camo.

I don't wear camo to shoot target events, but it's not because I get faint at the sight of camo
What a wimpified scenario in which someone is "uncomfortable" because of the camo pants wearer next to him ... how does such a person ever manage to survive emotionally traveling to an event in the USA if someone else's clothing design at the gas station or airport gives them the vapors? And what to do about practice/training venues - does such a hot house flower get a restraining order against camo wearers from being at their range while the flower is practicing?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I've hunted since I was 5 and haven't yet had any camo clothes or equipment this far. In most common hunting (elk hunting) in here camo clothing is pretty much disallowed in main body parts and only hi-vis clothing is allowed. Which has lowered hunting accidents or hunters being driven over by a car to minimum. Makes no difference to game as they see different spectrum of light and generally don't give a f**k even if a lorry drives over them.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

My limbs are faced with snake skins. Is that camo?

I also have limbs with clear fiberglass so the wood shows through. Is that camo?

The dress code should cover things like the presence and length of shirts, pants, shorts, skirts, etc., not the design on the fabric, IMHO.


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

Quote Originally Posted by Last_Bastion 
For every one person that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that there are two more that would be uncomfortable competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!

If that's the case I got news for you, your in the wrong sport. Maybe pick up tennis or golf.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

j.conner said:


> My limbs are faced with snake skins. Is that camo?
> 
> I also have limbs with clear fiberglass so the wood shows through. Is that camo?
> 
> The dress code should cover things like the presence and length of shirts, pants, shorts, skirts, etc., not the design on the fabric, IMHO.


Agreed. This hypersensitivity to "camo" and politically correct "interpretation" of what it means is just silly nonsense. 

It's amusing to me that anyone who would consider themselves an educated person would allow something so benign to bother them.



> *For every one person* that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that* there are two more that would be uncomfortable* competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!


I could not disagree any more with this statement.

And the title of this thread is for* USArchery*. If camo bothers folks in other countries, I'm sorry for them.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

As of right now, Camo bows ARE legal in USA Archery Events.

As Bob mentioned, in the future that MIGHT change for STAR FITA events. It is being discussed and personally I hope we keep the camo bows here in the US. More and more archers are buying target bows in target colors but there are still several that use their bow for both hunting and target competition.

In Arizona, most of the people shooting camo bows are not very serious into target competition and when they do become serious, they buy a target bow in target colors or black.

Where I see an issue is in youth bows and or beginner bows. There are very few youth bows out there in target colors. Some companies do not make a youth bow in anything but camo.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

RickBac said:


> Where I see an issue is in youth bows and or beginner bows. There are very few youth bows out there in target colors. Some companies do not make a youth bow in anything but camo.


Then that is the thing that needs to change!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> when they do become serious, they buy a target bow in target colors or black.
> 
> Where I see an issue is in youth bows and or beginner bows. There are very few youth bows out there in target colors. Some companies do not make a youth bow in anything but camo.


Both are perfect examples of why we in the U.S. should ignore the "no camo" nonsense.

We have a lot of target archers - including many of the best compound archers in the world - who started their target archery journey with a camo bow in their hands. Imagine the next Reo Wilde choosing to skip our events simply because the bow they shoot for 3D events is not allowed in USArchery events. Are we willing to choose political correctness over welcoming these archers? 

And the point about the kids is spot-on. MOST of my young compound archers are shooting camo bows because they WANT camo bows.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Here's a question for those that think not allowing camo on equipment is a good idea:

*What purpose does this idea serve?* Is it so we're not offending the sensibilities of those on the line? Is it so everyone looks fancy in their colors? Is it so the rest of the world perceives us as a fine upstanding group of sportmen and women?

Target archery is a niche sport, plain and simple. Yes, it's growing, especially in the US. But it'll never reach the same level as any of the main stream sports. At least not in our lifetimes. So, at this point, what does the world perception gain us? Nothing really. Most of the world doesn't even know we're here (Korea being the exception).

So, we don't want to offend anyone on the line. What about offending fellow archers who would like to be *ON* the line, but are being told they can't play with the other boys and girls because of the color of their skin, err.. bows.

Seriously? Since when did archers care about what their peers are wearing or what their equipment looks like? All some of us ever care about is what's on the score card at the end of the day. Some of us don't even care about that, unless you're excited after a good day of shooting.

Can we please quit screwing around with crap that doesn't matter and get back to the important things. Like helping new clubs to host their first tournament, transitioning NASP kids into JOAD, getting better and more comprehensive training to our coaches, and making sure the barebow division shows up in Alabama in July so that all of USA Archery events will continue to be their home?


FULL DISCOLSURE: I have two bows. One Oly recurve and one compound. I have the recurve to help me be a better coach to my recurve archers. My passion is compound. It's covered in Mossy Oak Breakup. It won't be replaced until it fails just like the one before it. I've never shot another bow I enjoy shooting more. I'm not about to replace it because it's the wrong color.

Carry on. :wink:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

oh no hear we go again


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Both are perfect examples of why we in the U.S. should ignore the "no camo" nonsense.
> 
> We have a lot of target archers - including many of the best compound archers in the world - who started their target archery journey with a camo bow in their hands. Imagine the next Reo Wilde choosing to skip our events simply because the bow they shoot for 3D events is not allowed in USArchery events. Are we willing to choose political correctness over welcoming these archers?
> 
> And the point about the kids is spot-on. MOST of my young compound archers are shooting camo bows because they WANT camo bows.


Perfectly said.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Agreed. * This hypersensitivity to "camo" and politically correct "interpretation" of what it means is just silly nonsense. *
> 
> It's amusing to me that anyone who would consider themselves an educated person would allow something so benign to bother them.
> 
> ...


The other side of the coin is the moral outrage that so many people feel when you tell them they can't wear camo. I for one don't care, other than the entertainment factor it provides. When I see people walking around the mall in their camo hunting jacket I chuckle, but other than that it means very little to me.

I realize that I will probably spark more moral outrage at my not standing up for peoples god given right to wear camo, but oh well.

By the way, too bad Fred Bear never took an animal because he didn't have access to mossy oak or the new kryptec patterns.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

bobnikon said:


> The other side of the coin is the moral outrage that so many people feel when you tell them they can't wear camo. I for one don't care, other than the entertainment factor it provides. When I see people walking around the mall in their camo hunting jacket I chuckle, but other than that it means very little to me.
> 
> I realize that I will probably spark more moral outrage at my not standing up for peoples god given right to wear camo, but oh well.
> 
> By the way, too bad Fred Bear never took an animal because he didn't have access to mossy oak or the new kryptec patterns.


Clearly. Same for Howard Hill, who couldn't bag squat for lack of camo.

My favorite head scratcher is when I see people who have their pre-schoolers and other munchkins dressed in full camo when visiting the field course. It's hard enough to keep track of your kids without dressing them like snipers.

I don't think camo should be a big deal in the US tournaments - it's really a PR thing, I'd think. FITA wants to present target archery as an athletic pursuit separate from hunting, and wants dress and equipment to look like *sports equipment* rather than hunting equipment (which, I know, we also call sporting goods.) At the moment I'm sort of "meh" either way, subject to change.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Warbow said:


> Clearly. Same for Howard Hill, who couldn't bag squat for lack of camo.
> 
> My favorite head scratcher is when I see people who have their pre-schoolers and other munchkins dressed in full camo when visiting the field course. It's hard enough to keep track of your kids without dressing them like snipers.
> 
> I don't think camo should be a big deal in the US tournaments - it's really a PR thing, I'd think. FITA wants to present target archery as an athletic pursuit separate from hunting, and wants dress and equipment to look like *sports equipment* rather than hunting equipment (which, I know, we also call sporting goods.) At the moment I'm sort of "meh" either way, subject to change.


Yeah, like I said, doesn't bother me to see it, doesn't both me not to. 

I guess my point, for those who feel it is a hot topic, is that it is the choice of the individual to wear it. 
It is the choice of the governing body to not allow it. 
If they feel so strongly about camo, wear it proudly, stand by the courage of your convictions... and deal with the consequences.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

This new WA By-Law on Camo will be voted on at the World Archery Congress held at the same time as the World Championships in Copenhagen, Denmark. It would go into effect on January 1st, 2016 if passed. At this time it will effect all World Archery Sanctioned tournaments starting at the World Ranking Event level and higher. It will effect all World Championships, including Field and 3D, World Cups and tournaments like the Arizona Cup. Star FITA registered events at this time are not included.

It will effect the Arizona Cup for all archers who register. It should not effect any other USA Archery event. 

Here is the link to the proposed By-Law

http://www.worldarchery.org/Portals/1/Documents/Rules/Bylaws/2014/Bk3_Art.11.3.3_Art.20.1.1_Bk4_Art.33.1.pdf


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

All I own are camo bows and they put a hole in a paper target just as well as a solid color bow. Because I can't afford to change my bows or purchase all new, I wouldn't be allowed to participate? Seems a bit ridiculous. IMO, if someone is uncomfortable being around me because my bow is camo, I'm going to be uncomfortable around them because they obviously have a fragile mental state and could snap at any moment.


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## mahgnillig (Aug 3, 2014)

Wow, there is a lot of anti-any country not the USA in this thread. It's actually unusual to see people walking around in camo in other countries... only the US and Canada seem to have this obsession with looking like you just walked in off a battlefield. 

I can see the logic behind the ban... WA is trying to present archery as a serious sport and disassociate from weapons and hunting. If USArchery follows along or if they don't, I'm not really bothered... none of my stuff is camo anyway. People who have stuff that is camo and can't change it could always just wrap it with vinyl or vet wrap to cover it up when they need to.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Well, lets just hope the people running USAA has some common sense, and devote their efforts in developing the highest quality archers in the world, instead of making fashion models.

I am encouraged in that the USAA does allow barebow to shoot in their indoor and outdoor target events, something that WA frowns on.

If a person shoots well enough to represent the US at the world events and gets the invite to do so, then it is at that time they need to be compliant with the WA rules. If they don't want to comply, then move to the next person on the list.

Lets just hope that USAA stays focused on developing shooting skills, and not fashion styles.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> looking like you just walked in off a battlefield.


That's just it. You've bought into the liberal mindset. 

It's not a "battlefield" - particularly when it comes to archery. It's that folks use their bows to HUNT... LEGALLY... here in the U.S., and don't particularly see the need to buy another bow to shoot targets with. 

If USArchery tries to enforce the "no camo" rule at sanctioned domestic events in the U.S., it's going to blow up in their face. I will intentionally wear camo or put camo tape on my bow just to make a point. And if I get kicked out, I'll take me and all my JOAD/AA students and we'll go shoot NFAA events and that will be the end of my USArchery membership. Period, end of story.

This nonsense has to stop at some point. USArchery used to be the NATIONAL ARCHERY ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES, not some servant organization to fita. I'm sure NFAA will be all too happy to welcome all the former USArchery members when this happens, and to become THE national target archery organization for the U.S.

I couldn't care less what they allow or don't allow in other countries. If they want to be more or less restrictive than what WA sanctions, then so be it. But if USArchery blindly follows WA on issues such as this, they have lost my support.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I always marvel at the passion over these things. It seems I am not passionate enough. 

I don't see why a person need camo to sneak up on the ellusive yellow/red/blue/black/white circled prey in its natural habitat, a big open field with stands and banners and concession booths. 

I guess it all comes down to the perceived injustice of being told they can't. We have a rather entitled society now-a-days where we feel set upon when a governing body makes a rule we don't like. So, heck, lets open Oly recurve to camouflaged compounds, because really we are just oppressing them by not letting them shoot in our category. 

If the rule does indeed get implemented then there should be a grace period before it is enforced. Allow people to become educated and let word spread. It behooves parents to do a little more research before getting johnny or jenny into any sport, besides just walking into dicks or bass pro. Buy the black bow insteady of the woodland pattern and I bet they can still use it for hunting both paper and real live animals. 

Sports have rules. Sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't. If you don't like them then boycott as indicated above. I don't think it will have as big an impact some believe it will.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

bobnikon said:


> I always marvel at the passion over these things. It seems I am not passionate enough.
> 
> I don't see why a person need camo to sneak up on the ellusive yellow/red/blue/black/white circled prey in its natural habitat, a big open field with stands and banners and concession booths.
> 
> ...


Just as a comment, that 'don't tread on me' isn't a modern day invention - our Founders had pretty much that same mindset that prompted them to risk all by crossing an ocean in small boats and carving out a nation from scratch


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Yeah... but it wasn't over the color of their bows or muskets (I bet neither were woodland disruptive and they seemed to eat as well). Sometimes it gets extrapolated a little too far.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

mahgnillig said:


> I can see the logic behind the ban... WA is trying to present archery as a serious sport and disassociate from weapons and hunting. If USArchery follows along or if they don't, I'm not really bothered... none of my stuff is camo anyway. People who have stuff that is camo and can't change it could always just wrap it with vinyl or vet wrap to cover it up when they need to.


How does one separate a sport from weapons and hunting when the equipment of the sport is a weapon? What good do we do the sport when we deny its history?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> How does one separate a sport from weapons and hunting when the equipment of the sport is a weapon? What good do we do the sport when we deny its history?


When in the history of archery did we start painting the bows in camouflage? Wooden longbows I can see the argument, but camouflage is not a "tradition" that holds too much water. 

I can see the argument for allowing them (hence my comment on grace period between implementation and enforcement), for the time being, in that the parents bought johnny or jenny the camo bow because it was on the shelf at Dicks. But after a break-in period... not so much.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't mind a dress code. That's fine. The thing that gets me is that they single out camo on a bow. Who cares what color the bow is? You can have any combination of wild bright colors but if you have a green/black/brown bow it's a problem? What definition will they put on camo? Is this bow camo because it's 3 colors in a pattern?








Is it going to be that you can't have any sort of pattern? I've seen bows with flame patterns on them. Is that camo because it's multiple colors and in a pattern?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

bobnikon said:


> I always marvel at the passion over these things. It seems I am not passionate enough.
> 
> I don't see why a person need camo to sneak up on the ellusive yellow/red/blue/black/white circled prey in its natural habitat, a big open field with stands and banners and concession booths.
> 
> ...


Bob, I'll ask you directly. What purpose does setting this rule serve? Why does it matter if it's shades of green, brown, and black or bright blue, green, or red?

This isn't about sneaking up on a target, and you know it. It's about using the equipment that an archer has and not forcing them to go out and spend more money just to play the game they're already playing.


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## Less is More (Nov 15, 2013)

I did not even know that this was going on but......I can certainly say that this is by far one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard of!


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> Bob, I'll ask you directly. What purpose does setting this rule serve? Why does it matter if it's shades of green, brown, and black or bright blue, green, or red?
> 
> This isn't about sneaking up on a target, and you know it. It's about using the equipment that an archer has and not forcing them to go out and spend more money just to play the game they're already playing.





bobnikon said:


> *If* the rule does indeed get implemented then there should be a *grace period before it is enforced*. Allow people to become *educated and let word spread*. It *behooves parents to do a little more research* before getting johnny or jenny into any sport, besides just walking into dicks or bass pro. *Buy the black bow insteady of the woodland pattern and I bet they can still use it for hunting both paper and real live animals.*
> 
> Sports have rules. Sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't. If you don't like them then boycott as indicated above. I don't think it will have as big an impact some believe it will.


I can not speak for the exact why of the rule. My understanding, third hand because I have not spoken to the governing body directors, is the same as has been stated above by other posters. USA is small in the grand scheme of things. WA is the governing body. They are trying to separate hunting (and the negative connotations that camouflage has in some areas of the world for a VERY good reason) from the sport. For us, in our little corner of the world, to complain about it will not change World Archery. If we want an inlet into WA events, it would help greatly to have an organization that is affiliated with it, and for now that organization is USA Archery. We have options if we don't want to go that route. 

Am I concerned that this rule will impact the kids, yes! That is why I believe there needs to be a gap between implementation and enforcement. I have yet to see proof that you need a camouflage bow to hunt. So, once the rule is out there, communicated and clear, it is up to people who want to play the game to appropriately equip themselves. I am not sure the deer will mind if you shoot it with a black bow :wink: 

Do I believe they need to clearly define what the interpretation of camouflage is? Absolutely! Will Fusion would be considered camouflage??? Long story short, I believe until that is clearly defined you will have individual judges making a call which may not coincide with what another judge would answer. 

Is this even going to be implemented at any level besides WA ranking events? I have no clue. I will have to buy my son a new quiver if so. I won't be marching on Washington if that is the case.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Just for the heck of it, I decided to see what the ruling for competitive firearms was in regards to camo. Believe it or not, camo is NOT allowed even in international firearm competitions. I think this should make it pretty clear that USArchery is in the right to rule the same way.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Just when archery bans camo, the rest of the world uses camo as a fashion statement. yep, we are 180 degress out of phase.

Part of an article from the Denver Post on the new trend in clothing-camo.

MILWAUKEE — Camouflage clothing is in vogue — and not just among those who are trying to remain invisible to white-tailed deer and other critters.

"It's a trend that is most popular now in the U.S. and Europe, but has seen its time in nearly every part of the world," said Jordan Dechambre, a Milwaukee-based style expert.

In addition to guys in tree stands and duck blinds across Wisconsin, celebrities including Rihanna, Justin Timberlake, Gwen Stefani and Sarah Jessica Parker have been spotted wearing camo gear.

"Camo has been an important trend over the past couple seasons and shows no sign of slowing down," Sofia Wacksman, vice president of trend for Menomonee Falls, Wis.-based Kohl's Department Stores, said in an email. "While re-colored and abstract iterations make it look new, the classic camo can also feel modern when mixed with softer colors like ballet pinks and creamy neutrals."

The fashion appeal of camo comes as no surprise to Al Lobner.

"I always thought that," said Lobner, president of the Wisconsin Bear Hunters' Association. "The rest of the world is starting to figure it out."

Lobner, 60, said he has been wearing camo for at least 30 years. He has a closetful of the stuff. So do a lot of other people these days.

"The fact that camouflage is more easily accessible than ever — whether it's from local boutiques or national retailers — makes it much more convenient to rock the trend," Dechambre said. "'Standing out' in camouflage is no longer an oxymoron."

Classic solution to a problem that doesn't exist.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

TomB said:


> Just when archery bans camo, the rest of the world uses camo as a fashion statement. yep, we are 180 degress out of phase.
> 
> Part of an article from the Denver Post on the new trend in clothing-camo.
> 
> ...


That should be all the more reason to avoid it :wink:

If the fashionistas think it is good... it probably is very bad.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Oh for the love of... really? This bedwetting PC BS has elevated to an epidemic in this country. I can see it all now... the pontificating among the yuppies.. "We must disassociate and distance the image of WA, and the sport of FITA, Olympic, and any other body involved within the halo of WA and USA archery away from the brutality of hunting. In doing so we shall elevate the image of the sport, furthermore, this may attract more participation including anti-hunters, minorities, and those with alternative lifestyles, as well as restore the image of archery in the public eye."

This has become a nation of over sensitive brainwashed sheep. Cumbaya.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

The sky is falling and world is going to hell in a hand basket. Some guys are reading a lot into a proposed bylaw that would govern international level competitions: World Champs, World Cups, and World Ranking Events. If the bylaw gets passed.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> Those are wise words. I'll be adding that to an FAQ for new students and parents.


 Providing information so that archers and families can make informed choices is the key. I think its important to get the word out as soon as possible so that folks can avoid making an avoidable mistake. I am sure someone will bring camo arrows to equipment inspection and say, "The store told me the arrows were legal, what do you mean I need to change arrows?" Nationally, no big deal, we just inform them that next time, avoid camo and tell them why. We do the same with blue jeans at target events, we tell the archer where they can buy pants to shoot in tomorrow. Its the archer that goes to their first televised international shoot and is prohibited from shooting camo equipment that needs to know the information. FAQs lists is a great place to help get the word out. Thank you.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mo0se said:


> Oh for the love of... really? This bedwetting PC BS has elevated to an epidemic in this country. I can see it all now... the pontificating among the yuppies.. "We must disassociate and distance the image of WA, and the sport of FITA, Olympic, and any other body involved within the halo of WA and USA archery away from the brutality of hunting. In doing so we shall elevate the image of the sport, furthermore, this may attract more participation including anti-hunters, minorities, and those with alternative lifestyles, as well as restore the image of archery in the public eye."
> 
> *This has become a nation of over sensitive brainwashed sheep. *Cumbaya.


I guess we can look at the other side of the coin again. There is an army of camouflaged sheep heeding the call to arms to protect the corporate profits of the camo companies who are marketting the clothing equivalent to Coca-Cola. It may be pleasing to some but totally unneccessary and they keep changing the formula (design/pattern) and the sheeple keep buying it in promise of accomplishing something our forefathers did in denim and wool...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

TER said:


> The sky is falling and world is going to hell in a hand basket. Some guys are reading a lot into a proposed bylaw that would govern international level competitions: World Champs, World Cups, and World Ranking Events. If the bylaw gets passed.


From what I read, "Book 3 – Chapter 11 – Article 11.3.3: Athlete equipment shall not include camouflage colours of any kind." is not limited to world championships, world cups and WREs. The guy I am concerned about is the one that shoots a USAT star with a camo bow because it not a big deal and then goes to a WRE and is hassled for not having compliant equipment. We owe it to the archers to info them of the restrictions they might encounter. I think it starts with coaches and retail sales people. They must be informed to be able to serve the archer well. That having been said, things can change before 2016. But why risk it?


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## mahgnillig (Aug 3, 2014)

Mulcade said:


> How does one separate a sport from weapons and hunting when the equipment of the sport is a weapon? What good do we do the sport when we deny its history?


Maybe the military would have been a better term than weapons. But look at Olympic shooting... it too bears little resemblance to anything military, despite also being a weapon. 

Either way, in a wider world context, camo has negative connotations (and quite frankly no-one is going to stop to check if it's realtree or multicam). The reasons are varied, but I would imagine that the archery governing bodies in many countries want to distance themselves from the weapons and military aspect. 

Americans associate camo with hunting and military heroes, other nationalities associate it with invasion/occupation, corrupt military/police, terrorists etc. Since WA represents all nations it makes sense for them to cater to the majority of their member countries. In the US it makes less sense, but if archers are going to compete in WA events then USArchery should at least warn people about the rules, even if they don't adopt the rules themselves. 

Maybe that is the happy middle ground... USArchery shouldn't outright ban camo, but should make it known to all members that if they wish to progress to the international stage they will have to paint their gear. That way parents can make informed decisions when buying equipment, and maybe buy the kid a black bow and a roll of camoform tape.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is going to get flat-out hysterical before it's all over.

#1 question here folks - WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS OR ISN'T "CAMO" ????

If an archer shows up with an anodized green and black riser, do I get to claim it's "camo" and have that archer put their equipment away.

Do you see how asinine this is !?!

The hypersensitive pc crowd has not thought this one through.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> This is going to get flat-out hysterical before it's all over.
> 
> #1 question here folks - WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS OR ISN'T "CAMO" ????
> 
> ...


no more asinine than how bent some are on this topic, you like your camo and wanna wear it, I get it. never mind the rational and the rest of the world, camo rocks


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## Darryl Longbow (Apr 11, 2003)

Would any multi colored clothing be considered camo. What is the definition of camo ? Just more pc bs. Perhaps they can make it stick for clothing but bows ? arrows ? quivers ? silly, just silly. If you are not in an international event who cares. A lot of people used to wear a folding knife on their belt at shoots, guess that would horrify some people and make them nervous. Get real folks. And stopping a youngster from participation because of the color of his or her bow ? that's just real bright for our future.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

wanemann said:


> no more asinine than how bent some are on this topic, you like your camo and wanna wear it, I get it. never mind the rational and the rest of the world, camo rocks


I think you meant to spell "rationale".

I never said I wanted to wear camo, and I don't believe I've ever worn camo or used a camo bow or accessory at a target archery event. But I should be able to if I want to.

You're completely missing the point, and you clearly don't mind being controlled either.

What's next, no national flags on bows? Because from the news footage, the American flag is offensive to some people too.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Seeing some of the responses from "American's" in this thread that are ready to do whatever their told explains a lot about what's happened to this country. Assuming that they're participants of USAA events, makes me wonder why I even wanted anything to do with that organization. It's also too bad the NFAA caved and let USAA be the coaching certification too because now I am stuck with that affiliation with them.


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## Mormegil (Jan 26, 2012)

For a different country's take on the issue, here is the official response from Archery Australia:

Camouflage Equipment
For people considering trying for selection to an international team, be aware that World Archery has advised
that the use of any equipment or personal items that is camouflaged coloured or has a camouflage pattern is
not permitted at World Championships and World Cups. This includes all equipment that is taken onto the Field
of Play i.e. bow, clothing, quiver etc even items such as a carry bag, armguard, scope tripod or binocular strap.
Archery Australia takes a slightly different view of camouflage coloured equipment. For tournaments conducted
in Australia it is accepted that camouflage coloured equipment in particular bows are permitted, as they are
generally cheaper to purchase than coloured bows and we do not want to disadvantage people. 
Our rules only restrict the wearing of camouflage clothing. Refer to Archery Australia rule 7.10.7 that states –
The following items of clothing are not permitted:
• Clothing with inappropriate or offensive images, slogans or advertising.
• Untidy, unclean, damaged or torn clothing.
• Camouflage style clothing or clothing intended to break-up or hide a person’s image or blend into the
bush, such as green or green-based camouflage. 

Obviously the smart thing to do is encourage shooters who have a lot of ambition/ability to buy non-camo equipment just so they don't run into issues down the line but if you just want to come along to weekend shoots or state/national competitions and fling arrows with your camo bow then there's no problem.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I think you meant to spell "rationale".
> 
> I never said I wanted to wear camo, and I don't believe I've ever worn camo or used a camo bow or accessory at a target archery event. But I should be able to if I want to.
> 
> ...


ok, let me clarify.. I should have said you Americans, not you specifically, and not all Americans. 
it is possible I am missing the point, sure..... but then it must also be possible that its you who are missing the point. 
You are free to do as you choose with regards to what you wear to any event, but be aware you may be asked to leave, just as I may choose to drive 95mph and accept the ticket. in any society you are free to do as you choose, provided your choice is within the confines of the rules. its like this.. you are most welcome to my home anytime, but, I would like you to leave your shoes at the door, this doesn't mean I am out to get you, control you, or take your rights away, everyone leaves their shoes at the door or you don't come in my house, my rules, don't like it don't come its that simple.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

If you don't like the way USA Archery does things, just shoot NFAA tournaments
.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> If you don't like the way USA Archery does things, just shoot NFAA tournaments
> .


If this "no camo anything" rule goes into effect for domestic USArchery events, you will see a lot of folks quit shooting USArchery events. 

On the world cup / world champs / Olympic stage, sure. No big deal. Nobody NEEDS or should be hampered by the rule. Esp on foreign soil.

Sounds to me that Aus is ahead of the curve, as I would expect. 

Now let's see what the USArchery leadership decides. Are they going to cave to the international PC police, or will they stay true to their NAA roots? Time will tell.

Wanemann, I spent a month in central Canada, and it's a lovely country. The people are incredibly nice. But the rules you all are willing to follow border on oppressive and frankly won't fly here in the states. I also noticed that many of the people I met in central Canada felt they were more "American" than Canadian, and spoke very highly of the independant spirit and liberties we enjoy here. The reason we have those liberties (which have resulted in unchecked immigration) is because of our independant spirit, and I pray to God that never changes. If world archery is allowed to tell the parents of my 9 year old JOAD girl that they have to go buy her a new bow to compete in a target competition, or that her brand new pink camo armguard isn't allowed, then USArchery isn't serving their membership.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

I would support this no camo rule, if just for the purpose of getting people to leave USA Archery and join the NFAA and IFAA


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> I would support this no camo rule, if just for the purpose of getting people to leave USA Archery and join the NFAA and IFAA


LOL Kendric.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

I try my best.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If this rule does trickle down to domestic US competitions, I'm going to file complaints at every event anytime I see a bow that is not a solid color so they have to TRY and define what "camo" is. Good luck with that. LOL.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

One of the coolest bows I've seen was a Hoyt Radian with a camo pattern, but instead of green/brown etc., it was purple, blue and other colors. So is this camo? Is camo a color combo or pattern? They'll have to be clearer on this so judges can make the call. 

The Aussie take makes sense to me. If you plan to shoot an international event, get a can of spray paint or even spray on white foot powder for the duration of the shoot. By then, you'll probably have a non-camo bow anyway for serious competition. 

Frankly, I can't get too excited about the issue. I don't see a compelling reason for the rule or much to get excited about if you don't like it. Save your energy for something more significant. I don't see the end of our God-given rights or undermining of the Constitition.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

Is the purpose behind this rule to restrict access or to create a more uniform appearance during tournaments?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

To be clear, I don't care what WA decides. They have a lot more people to cater to than just Americans. On an international stage, they get to set the rules. I'm concerned with USAA following suit for no reason than to just follow.

Several people have mentioned that if we don't follow suit then those archers who get to perform on the international need to be aware of the rule. For a person that has the time and resources to dedicate to achieving the chance to play on the international stage, chances are they will have replaced their bow at LEAST once (usually multiple replacements) during the process. It's at that point they can easily purchase a bow in one of the acceptable target colors. Easy solution and done.

For the other 95% of the archers in the US who only compete at local, regional, and national events, what difference does it make what color our equipment is? 



bobnikon said:


> Am I concerned that this rule will impact the kids, yes! That is why I believe there needs to be a gap between implementation and enforcement. I have yet to see proof that you need a camouflage bow to hunt. So, once the rule is out there, communicated and clear, it is up to people who want to play the game to appropriately equip themselves. I am not sure the deer will mind if you shoot it with a black bow :wink:


Bob, that's all well and good for the kids, parents, and adult archers that ask a coach before purchasing a bow for the first time. I don't know about you, but I don't often get that opportunity. And on the rare occasions that I do, those people are going to get what they want and not necessarily what they're told. So now, because they have the bow they want, they don't get to play. How dumb is that? 



Serious Fun said:


> From what I read, "Book 3 – Chapter 11 – Article 11.3.3: Athlete equipment shall not include camouflage colours of any kind." is not limited to world championships, world cups and WREs. The guy I am concerned about is the one that shoots a USAT star with a camo bow because it not a big deal and then goes to a WRE and is hassled for not having compliant equipment. We owe it to the archers to info them of the restrictions they might encounter. I think it starts with coaches and retail sales people. They must be informed to be able to serve the archer well. That having been said, things can change before 2016. But why risk it?


Bob, you talk about educating retail sales people. You must live in a different world than I do because most of the ones that I know don't give a second thought to target archery and so don't care what our silly rules are. They only care about selling a bow.

Several others have brought up the no camo clothing rule as support for going in this direction. We're not comparing apples to apples here. Going out to Walmart and buying a $15 pair of pants that you can just change into on the spot is nothing like dropping $1200 on a new bow that now has to be setup, tuned, and practiced with. It's not even in the same ballpark.

What I'm seeing is another case of focusing on the handful of elite archers and leaving the rest of the membership in the dust. I have yet to see an actual answer to what purpose does this serve. Bobnikon, this isn't just about those of us who get to the international level. It's about the entire population of archers in the US. From the little kid who just picked up his first bow, to the junior who's working hard to some day make the USAT, and finally to the masters barebow archer who has found a new set of goals and records to beat.

USA Archery can't continue to just serve the handful of elite archers or else they'll look back one day and wonder where everyone else has gone.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

USA Archery has always moved towards exclusion of membership in order to create a small uniform group. If they want to stop pushing away people, they would allow more styles of shooting. I am fairly convinced that the only thing USA Archery cares about is putting together an international team.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

USA archery has not adopted this yet but it does look like it is going to happen.

I agree that the need to clearly identify what a Camo bow is. Is a flat black bow camo? depends on who you talk to.

Is a local tournament director going to turn away an archer because the bow is camo? I doubt it. I would expect that the rule will only apply to USAT and National tournaments.

Partially due to the lack of good bows available for our smaller archers that are not camo.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

OK I said to my self I wasn't going to weigh in on this but since we've jacked this up to 3 pages I feel I might as well throw in too. 

I'm perfectly fine with WA enacting a rule that is poorly worded and lacking definitions simply because I will never attend a World Archery ranking event. If an archer does achieve that level of competence and can afford to attend the world ranking events then they can probably afford a flat color bow. I see no problem with requiring pattern free bows at the highest level. However if USarchery blindly follow suite on that then I think I too will try to find some other way to run my club. It's just not practical in the US to try and have a youth program that intentionally tries to exclude the hunting crowd. This is my biggest objection if you are going to exclude some of your best talent from the new archer bandwidth simply because the archer cares more about hunting then they do targets at this point in their life then we certainly will be worse for it. 

Limbwalker is completely correct, how do we plan on defining camo? WA doesn't apear to have any plan on defining it I suppose they hope that no one will try and skirt the line. Clearly there are no real clean cut lines as to what camo is, so you are just setting your officials up for conflict.
Are any of these patterns camo or are all of them camo patterns?


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## Scipiotik (Apr 11, 2012)

It you put my bow on a John Player Special Lotus it would be camouflaged. It's a dumb rule, I hope it doesn't pass. Perhaps we USAA members should write to the leadership about it?

And I'm as liberal as they come, this isn't a PC/Liberal/anything else issue. This seems more like USAA wanting to restrict access to tournaments so they have a better chance of getting their handpicked archers through to the international teams. The larger the pool the more chances someone could show up and stage an upset.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

If you take a look at one of my target bows from a distance I'm sure it looks like a camo pattern.














However if you take a closer look at it you'll see it is something else entirely, if you were a WA competitor and you knew I was likely doing to shoot better than you would you petition to have me excluded?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

My money is on no! LOL


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

rharper said:


> My money is on no! LOL


That right there is funny!


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> Is the purpose behind this rule to restrict access or to create a more uniform appearance during tournaments?


If they want a more uniform appearance they need to limit the colors that people can choose. Keep it to black, a single shade of red and a single shade of blue. None of this pink, purple or any of those other scary colors on the market.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> If they want a more uniform appearance they need to limit the colors that people can choose. Keep it to black, a single shade of red and a single shade of blue. None of this pink, purple or any of those other scary colors on the market.


LOL.

I can't wait to see a USArchery judge approach a 10 year old girl with a pink camo bow and tell her she can't shoot it. I want to be there to get the video from that landmark moment in the history of archery in this country.


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## CarbonWarrior (Apr 12, 2014)

I think... just to piss upstream... I'm going to have my command put me on Temporary Duty Orders for the next shoot.
I'll arrive in my Duty Uniform (ACU Camoflage) and enter.
Go ahead and let some douchey official or organizer tell me I cant wear my camo... I dare em! Same uniform that's good enough for me to wear to defend your rights aint good enough to wear for your little shoot? Go kick rocks, Tournament official/NFAA board/FITA board/whoever voted on and approved some dumb crap like this... SMH!
This sport has gotten out of hand with their insistence that everyone dress like they're competing in the Augusta Open. I understand the rules in most cases only dictate the "Pro" class wear collared shirts and some type of slack/khaki or whatno, as they are a representative of the sport at higher levels. I'm all for looking presentable. But, as for the amateurs and weekend shooters, how bout we leave that to the rest of the shooters? How do you feel standing side by side with a shooter wearing the same clothing that made archery popular in the FIRST place?

Ya'all just dont wanna get me started. LOL


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

CW, I'd enjoy watching that. 



> This sport has gotten out of hand with their insistence that everyone dress like they're competing in the Augusta Open


Actually, it wasn't all that long ago that folks had to wear all whites at Nationals, and white, navy and khaki were the only color pants/shorts allowed. I was even subject to this when I first started in 2004. The rules have been VERY relaxed since then. 

The no camo is purely a LWL elitist knee-jerk reaction to satisfy a few whiners. You know, the same ones who's right to whine you are putting your life on the line to defend.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Since there has been a lot of comparing this ruling to golf dress code, I'll run with that for a moment. At most golf courses around here, there isn't a dress code to play a round. Weekend golfers can play their 18 in sandals, camo shorts and a tank-top for all anyone cares and that's fine, but if you sign up for a tournament or join a club, you are expected to adhere to a specific dress code. That's all I see this ruling as (and yes we're talking about gear, not clothing, but bear with me) is not saying you can't have that equipment or practice with it, or that it's inherently bad, but you cannot argue that camo patterns exude an air of professionalism.

From what I have seen, USArchery caters to people who have an eye toward elite competition, whereas NFAA (at least in CO) seems more to give hunters something to do in the off season. It makes sense that USArchery wants to make this change and if you want to shoot, then do and to hell with anyone that wants to regulate your gear. If you want to compete, however, you need to follow the rules of the organization you align yourself with. 

I cannot think of a single sport that doesn't have restrictions on uniform, equipment, colors etc. So why should archery be any different.

P.S. Pink camo should be outlawed because who the hunts flamingoes anyway (yes this is a joke, just want to be clear on that)


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

so everyone who wants to shoot camo just needs to shoot NFAA?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Everybody is blowing this up on a forum, that while USA archery officials may lurk, the better manner would be to protest directly to them, *not to threaten to make a scene in front of all those kids people are professing to want to "protect"*. 

Again, most who are up in arms are missing what a number of us are saying.

IF, I say again IF this is implemented, and at this point we don't know, it will likely only be implemented at the higher levels, IE world ranking events, not the grass roots shoots all over the country. Then there should be a grace period, and education period to ensure that kids aren't turned away. If ranges, stores, and such are educated then they can educate the parents who are buying the gear. If the parents don't research a sport before they get their kids into competitive archery, I say again competitive archery, if this implemented at levels below world cup ranking events, I say again... no I won't bother, then it is the parents/coaches/ranges fault, not the judges. It is our responsibility to know the rules, it is the judges responsibility to enforce them. If I show up with a scope on my Oly Recurve I am going to get disqualified. If Mom and Dad bought a sight with a scope for their kids Oly Recurve, is it the judges fault that they are contravening the rules. Probably based on the bulk of this thread. 

As for equipment, again the whole break-in period if it is indeed even an issue based on how/when it is implemented should be enough for those few who aren't educated or have a clue to get one.

Anyhow, standing by for the firestorm.

Cheers


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

CarbonWarrior said:


> I think... just to piss upstream... I'm going to have my command put me on Temporary Duty Orders for the next shoot.
> I'll arrive in my Duty Uniform (ACU Camoflage) and enter.
> Go ahead and let some douchey official or organizer tell me I cant wear my camo... I dare em! Same uniform that's good enough for me to wear to defend your rights aint good enough to wear for your little shoot? Go kick rocks, Tournament official/NFAA board/FITA board/whoever voted on and approved some dumb crap like this... SMH!
> This sport has gotten out of hand with their insistence that everyone dress like they're competing in the Augusta Open. I understand the rules in most cases only dictate the "Pro" class wear collared shirts and some type of slack/khaki or whatno, as they are a representative of the sport at higher levels. I'm all for looking presentable. But, as for the amateurs and weekend shooters, how bout we leave that to the rest of the shooters? How do you feel standing side by side with a shooter wearing the same clothing that made archery popular in the FIRST place?
> ...


CW. I see your piss upstream, and I will piss across it. 

Not trying to start a war, but just to give a little context. 

When we go to official functions we wear dress uniforms not camo or whatever form of combat dress we wear. I can only presume that you don't protest being told what to do and wear your camo to parades and when meeting with dignitaries and such. 

I am truly curious. I wear my uniform with pride, but I wear the ordered dress of the day and don't whine when it isn't the most comfortable and easy to maintain, because I am proud of all my uniforms. And I wear the uniform that is appropriate to the situation.

As LW said, we all used to wear white on the line. I tell you what, it looked damn good. So for anybody who wants to worry about traditon and wearing what was worn to make "archery popular in the first place" and such cool, lets go back to whites. That was a uniform of sorts. So could be said about Khaki pants and a nice shirt for shooting. And has been discussed in other threads for about $6 from ARC, Good Will, etc. That is where I got mine.

I think the fact that we wear ACU/BDU/Combat Uniforms in the office is pretty much laughable. I recognize that mine is a very minority opinion. The argument is trying to Operationalize the Office Place, but it is more just us being too lazy to iron. I can't remember the last time I leopard crawled to the printer.

Anyhow, thanks for your service.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

(1) How do you separate a sport with martial roots from mars.
(2) If part of what makes the sport relevant in important countries is hunting, why on earth would you try and downplay that connection? I thought we were pushing for relevance and exposure. In the US if I see a bow on TV it's usually a compound on a hunting show. Why would you ruffle those feathers.
(3) I get other countries have different cultures and attitudes but really, how much camo was at work in Arizona? I don't buy that the would-be protected class is actually skipping archery to avoid camo. (See martial roots of sport, I can't believe anyone gets into it without making those connections or meeting hunters aplenty) But banning camo might actually squeeze out archers whose setups are hunting related, who don't want a second set of stuff just to meet rules.
(4) Don't the rules now reflect a compromise that should be maintained? You can't wear literal military or hunting garb but you can have trim and a camo bow. The first half of that addresses the main thrust of the cultural complaint while the second half lets the hunters be themselves, a little.


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## CarbonWarrior (Apr 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> CW, I'd enjoy watching that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PRECISELY... And, thank you for understanding.


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## CarbonWarrior (Apr 12, 2014)

bobnikon said:


> CW. I see your piss upstream, and I will piss across it.
> 
> Not trying to start a war, but just to give a little context.
> 
> ...


I wont argue your points... as i also agree partially with them. My primary function behind my little tirade was to draw attention to the point that the "little guy" or NON-Pro is really not who we should be targeting, imho. Enforce the rules for the folks who are trying to make their living in the sport. THAT is what defines a Professional. An amateur or novice has paid a chunk of change to participate in an event, knowing that even a podium finish in their class probably wont even put enough money in their pocket to cover the trip, hotel, meals and entry. Thats the guy who is paying just to be a part of something cool... should we really tell him his hunting bow isnt appropriate for Bowhunter class? Or his jeans and "local archery shop" T-shirt isnt appropriate attire for the tournament he has paid his hard-earned money to be in?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

CarbonWarrior said:


> I wont argue your points... as i also agree partially with them. My primary function behind my little tirade was to draw attention to the point that the "little guy" or NON-Pro is really not who we should be targeting, imho. Enforce the rules for the folks who are trying to make their living in the sport. THAT is what defines a Professional. An amateur or novice has paid a chunk of change to participate in an event, knowing that even a podium finish in their class probably wont even put enough money in their pocket to cover the trip, hotel, meals and entry. Thats the guy who is paying just to be a part of something cool... should we really tell him his hunting bow isnt appropriate for Bowhunter class? Or his jeans and "local archery shop" T-shirt isnt appropriate attire for the tournament he has paid his hard-earned money to be in?


See, now I AM passionate about my denim :wink: But I have accepted that I can't wear it when participating in my sons JOAD events.

As I said in previous posts, I do hope this isn't implemented at the grass roots or even most state and national events. It isn't necessary, especially as most events have nothing to do with WA. 

I just hope that the people who do intend to go on and abroad, educate themselves or their kids or their students to avoid any issues.

Cheers


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Azzurri said:


> (1) How do you separate a sport with martial roots


We do it all the time in track and field. Nobody expects to be allowed to have camo painted javelins or hammers, nor to wear camo shorts and tank tops... :dontknow: Same goes for fencing. The rules dictate the equipment and dress. How many world class sporting events allow camo? I'm sure there must be a number of them - snow boarding? Ice dancing? . But if so, they are a tiny minority.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> How many world class sporting events allow camo?


More than one may think. Boo Weekley made camo fashionable on the PGA tour. Cleveland sold a LOT of clubs to his fans because of it.

For many folks in the U.S., camo has become a way to identify themselves as people who enjoy hunting and fishing, and there is nothing more to it than that. For years, it was considered "taboo" to wear camo in public, but now it's pretty mainstream, esp. in areas where there are a lot of hunters and fishermen/women. Honestly, I see more ladies wearing camo than men anymore.

Pink camo is very popular with the young ladies in the South, and I suspect many rural areas. 

If someone is offended by camo, they really need to go see a shrink. Those same people would probably tell me I shouldn't be offended by dreadlocks or nose rings. Tell you what, you wear your dreadlocks and nose rings and let my JOAD kids shoot their camo bows. 'kay?


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## Darryl Longbow (Apr 11, 2003)

:wink: Bo bender I don't think anyone would say your bow is camo but I have worked with a few treasury officers that might question the legality of it.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Azzurri said:


> (1) How do you separate a sport with martial roots from mars.


Sorry, just can't resist taking another whack at this. 

There was never any printed camo during any time during the history of military archery. So perhaps instead of camo you should insure the rules allow linen hose with a codpiece, wool tunics and leather turn shoes :dontknow: 

Or, since target archery is centuries divorced from its military origins and was popularized in the 17 and 1800s as a high society sport, insure that long coats and vests, knee britches and buckle shoes are allowed?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Sorry, just can't resist taking another whack at this.


You will learn impulse control as you get older.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> You will learn impulse control as you get older.


Says the guy who just posted again himself :wink:

Posting here is like eating potato chips...


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## Mormegil (Jan 26, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Sounds to me that Aus is ahead of the curve, as I would expect.


To clarify the Australia situation:

We have 3 major archery groups - Archery Australia (the WA affiliated group), Australian Bowhunting Association, and the 3D Archery Association of Australia. We have some smaller groups as well but those are the 3 big ones and together they form a group called the Archery Alliance. Under the Archery Alliance members from any one of those associations can come along and shoot at a competition run by another association (normally they will not be eligible to get a medal but they're welcome to turn up and have a go). Obviously the equipment must comply with whatever rules normally apply to the shoot (e.g. if you're an ABA shooter with a 80# bow you'll be required to turn it down to 60# for an AA competition). I'm guessing the decision to allow camo bows was to keep encouraging this system where people could try out something different without having to go out and buy new gear. I know a couple of people with snow camo patterned bows that they bought just because they look cool - it would be silly to consider that as camo in Queensland where snow is a mythical weather condition that exists only on television.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

No camo clothing or worn gear makes sense in a sport where flying pointy things is the fun part. Get caught unseen bent over looking for arrows - no one wants to take the risk remote as it may seem.

However, we have to leave our bows behind the line as we go downrange to tend to our targets, so I see no reason to not allow camo-style bows.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

P


Mormegil said:


> To clarify the Australia situation:
> 
> We have 3 major archery groups - Archery Australia (the WA affiliated group), Australian Bowhunting Association, and the 3D Archery Association of Australia. We have some smaller groups as well but those are the 3 big ones and together they form a group called the Archery Alliance. Under the Archery Alliance members from any one of those associations can come along and shoot at a competition run by another association (normally they will not be eligible to get a medal but they're welcome to turn up and have a go). Obviously the equipment must comply with whatever rules normally apply to the shoot (e.g. if you're an ABA shooter with a 80# bow you'll be required to turn it down to 60# for an AA competition). I'm guessing the decision to allow camo bows was to keep encouraging this system where people could try out something different without having to go out and buy new gear. I know a couple of people with snow camo patterned bows that they bought just because they look cool - it would be silly to consider that as camo in Queensland where snow is a mythical weather condition that exists only on television.


The Aussies seem quite reasonable and accommodating. What a novel concept.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Says the guy who just posted again himself :wink:
> 
> Posting here is like eating potato chips...


And about as healthy too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB said:


> P
> 
> The Aussies seem quite reasonable and accommodating. What a novel concept.


I need to spend more time in Australia.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

I am safe in the belief that the NFAA will never ban camo.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> And about as healthy too.


Too true... :embara:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> No camo clothing or worn gear makes sense in a sport where flying pointy things is the fun part. Get caught unseen bent over looking for arrows - no one wants to take the risk remote as it may seem.
> 
> However, we have to leave our bows behind the line as we go downrange to tend to our targets, so I see no reason to not allow camo-style bows.


I hadn't thought of that. I'd say the converse is true, too. Don't wear full sized FITA targets as logos on clothing. That's about as smart as dressing up like a punching bag on Halloween.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

What about camo on a barebow? Is it okay to ban it then, because it could be used for aiming? What if that is what little Johnny has been shooting all along? Seems a little contrary to the soapboxes that are being stood on. It is okay for the unlimited or freestyle folks but not the barebow types.

Come on barebow guys, stand up for your rights, stand by the courage of your convictions, boycott shooting barebow and show us how much camo really means to you!


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> I am safe in the belief that the NFAA will never ban camo.


So, given my rant (intended as fun but also to prove a point) is in fact uniformed because I dont know, can I shoot a clearly defined camo patterned barebow riser in the nfaa?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I hadn't thought of that. I'd say the converse is true, too. Don't wear full sized FITA targets as logos on clothing. That's about as smart as dressing up like a punching bag on Halloween.


Wait! What's wrong with that???


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

bobnikon said:


> So, given my rant (intended as fun but also to prove a point) is in fact uniformed because I dont know, can I shoot a clearly defined camo patterned barebow riser in the nfaa?


You're not allowed a Camo Genesis in the NASP realm, at least here in Arizona on a state level. Only solid colors allowed.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

bobnikon said:


> What about camo on a barebow? Is it okay to ban it then, because it could be used for aiming? What if that is what little Johnny has been shooting all along? Seems a little contrary to the soapboxes that are being stood on. It is okay for the unlimited or freestyle folks but not the barebow types.
> 
> Come on barebow guys, stand up for your rights, stand by the courage of your convictions, boycott shooting barebow and show us how much camo really means to you!





bobnikon said:


> So, given my rant (intended as fun but also to prove a point) is in fact uniformed because I dont know, can I shoot a clearly defined camo patterned barebow riser in the nfaa?


Now you're just being a jackwagon to be a jackwagon. Feel free to leave that at the door next time you post.

Feel free to replace wagon with any three letter word that comes to mind.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> Now you're just being a jackwagon to be a jackwagon. Feel free to leave that at the door next time you post.
> 
> Feel free to replace wagon with any three letter word that comes to mind.


Good day to you Sir,

Actually, I think it is a valid question. People are up in arms about a potential ruling, that may in fact already be in place and afecting an entire class of shooters, so really it would be bringing equity to the sport and not singling out a group.

Do you have something to contribute to the question, or just want to sit there resorting to name calling. (Just a caveat though, you are probably really close to breaking AT rules with your last post) I am good either way.

And, by the way, did you actually READ the second post you quoted?

Cheers


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

Barebow:
1. Archers shooting Barebow style will use bow, arrows, strings, and accessories free from
any sights, marks or blemishes that may be used as a sighting aid.
Traditional:
5. No clickers, drawchecks or levels will be allowed. No laminations, marks or blemishes on
the face of the bow or in the sight window will be legal


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> Barebow:
> 1. Archers shooting Barebow style will use bow, arrows, strings, and accessories free from
> any sights, marks or blemishes that may be used as a sighting aid.
> Traditional:
> ...


So, then my interpretation is that NFAA would disqualify a camo barebow?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mulcade said:


> Now you're just being a jackwagon to be a jackwagon. Feel free to leave that at the door next time you post.
> 
> Feel free to replace wagon with any three letter word that comes to mind.


No, I he brings up a valid point. There is much ado about camo on equipment, and it, to a degree sounds rather indignant over them foreigners being all easily offended and PC and USA Archery being bad for kowtowing to them, "How dare an archery org ban camo!!! NFAA would never do that! USA! USA!" bobnikon brings up the legitimate point that, in fact, camo is not allowed on the belly of trad bows under NFAA "Traditional" class rules, no "laminations, marks or blemishes" on the "face" are allowed. Same goes for NFAA barebow, which "will use bow, arrows, strings, and accessories free from any sights, marks or blemishes that may be used as a sighting aid." It is a valid point. 

I think posts that are nothing but name calling are inappropriate.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

bobnikon said:


> So, then my interpretation is that NFAA would disqualify a camo barebow?


Trad and BB.

But, if not, the I'm painting my BB with a special camo that will blend in if I ever toss my bow in a box full of rulers and archery sight graduations.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

bobnikon said:


> So, then my interpretation is that NFAA would disqualify a camo barebow?


No, but you are required to cover the camo pattern on the sight window. The same goes for laminations on wood risers. A piece of electrical tape will suffice.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

J. Wesbrock said:


> No, but you are required to cover the camo pattern on the sight window. The same goes for laminations on wood risers. A piece of electrical tape will suffice.


So, only on the cut out window side? Or the entire belly of the riser?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jason's right. Tape the window and you're fine. Again, same is true for wood risers where the grain is showing. Easily done and the rules officials can easily check it.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Jason's right. Tape the window and you're fine. Again, same is true for wood risers where the grain is showing. Easily done and the rules officials can easily check it.


Sooo...with a big enough roll of electrical tape, my short brimmed* camo Traditional Archers of California baseball hat will be fine at a FITA event... :embara:

*I really don't get why Easton doesn't have any short brimmed logo hats. Regular brims are fine for compounders and all...


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Jason's right. Tape the window and you're fine. Again, same is true for wood risers where the grain is showing. Easily done and the rules officials can easily check it.


Hmmmm. I have something similar to this:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/samick-red-stag-takedown-recurve-bow.html

So do the parts (top and bottom) where that stripe comes across the back make it no good for NFAA?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Jason's right. Tape the window and you're fine. Again, same is true for wood risers where the grain is showing. Easily done and the rules officials can easily check it.


There you go.

Somebody can make a mint off this, and I won't even call copyright.

Make a sock, lycra or some such material, that can be wrapped around the riser, sealed off with velcro and we have a solution for WA/USA Archery and NFAA. Now nobody needs to quit. An already accepted method of working within the rules can be utilized with some jigging, and nobody has to make huge emotional displays in front of little kids to prove a point.

Anyhow, I am feeling a little like Dexter here. No, not the homicidal tenancies, I just don't get the emotion involved. I truly can take or leave camo. It doesn't bother me a whit on the line or off, but if it is a rule... so be it. Both parents were cops and I have been in the military for almost 20 years. I think we as a society need some rules. If they don't make sense we can work within the system to try and fix them. I even stop at stop signs in the middle of nowhere...

So before I stir it up any more, I will bow out.

Cheers and enjoy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but if it is a rule... so be it


So then there are no rules at all that you disagree with, anywhere?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> So then there are no rules at all that you disagree with, anywhere?


Did you read the WHOLE post... "I think we as a society need some rules. If they don't make sense we can work within the system to try and fix them. " Context is good LW.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

bobnikon said:


> Did you read the WHOLE post... "I think we as a society need some rules. If they don't make sense we can work within the system to try and fix them. " Context is good LW.


I think limbwalkers point was clear. If it is a bad ill contrived rule than we owe it to the participants to say no that is in fact a stupid rule lets either not adopt it for USArchery or fix it. 

Way back on page one the initial premise of this discussion was simple. Most youth compound bows come in one color choice... Camo. So the US manufacturers are selling them like hotcakes in camo color and from what I've heard they are having a real hard time meeting the demand. So we can either choose to exclude all those archers who are buying them or we can choose not to adopt the no camo equipment rules. I think generally more participants are better so I choose the latter. Keep in mind a lot of the kids who may be buying these bows likely have never even heard of USArchery or Word Archery or FITA. They simply enjoy shooting a bow. Now if someone finds them and starts working with them and educates them on all the opportunities why would they choose to go buy yet another bow when they have literally hundreds of other events they could attend that don't discriminate against their bow color. 

I will also state that I have no problem what so ever having a no camo policy for world ranking events (assuming they can define what camo is). I will defer to my bretherin on the other side of the pond who say camo has a negative connotation. I wouldn't categorize it that way here in the US certainly not in the archery communities. However I'm big enough to say perhaps the US shouldn't dictate world archery rules. So if it is generally agreed upon to have a no camo equipment at WA ranking events then so be it. Anyone affluent enough to attend one of those events can afford a second bow or a new paint job. However if it is the USArchery's job to find the best US archers then it would be irresponsible for USArchery to dictate no camo at their everyday tournaments and events simply because we might miss the next Brady Ellison (Who hunts and I'm sure owns a camo bow or 2).


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

bobnikon,

I have tons of electical tape in my basement in an assortment of colors. We could sell it as Camo-Off. :wink:


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

J. Wesbrock said:


> bobnikon,
> 
> I have tons of electical tape in my basement in an assortment of colors. We could sell it as Camo-Off. :wink:


I can retire now... Cool.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

J. Wesbrock said:


> bobnikon,
> 
> I have tons of electical tape in my basement in an assortment of colors. We could sell it as Camo-Off. :wink:


More like Camo-Over. Turpentine might make better "Camo-Off"... :dontknow:


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

I need to buy more rolls of electrical tape


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Heh. Just use bug spray with DEET in it. That's the best Camo-Off out there.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris1ny said:


> I need to buy more rolls of electrical tape


and black sharpies


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Heh. Just use bug spray with DEET in it. That's the best Camo-Off out there.


I learned that lesson the hard way years ago. Had to refinish two rifle stocks as a result.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I learned that lesson the hard way years ago. Had to refinish two rifle stocks as a result.


While working for a shop, I've seen some of the worst DEET damage you could get, especially with the Bowtech InVelvet stuff. InVelvet would just peel off like a bad sunburn.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

bobnikon said:


> Did you read the WHOLE post... "I think we as a society need some rules. If they don't make sense we can work within the system to try and fix them. " Context is good LW.


careful... you will be grouped in with those passive Canadians with that kind of thinking


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

So, here's a reaction from the parents of the top female compound shooter in my JOAD Academy, when I commented on her camo quiver last night, giving them a heads up of what's coming down the pike. Especially because she has JDT and big things in her sights, and is very capable of getting there.

She, and her dad, both hunters, could not believe that was being considered, given the roots of archery. They had not been exposed to any discussion on this, so that was an instinctive reaction. They asked why. 

I explained that it was a WA policy that USAA was considering, and quite likely to keep a sporty and professional image in target archery. 

They were still bewildered, but grateful that was an easy fix for them in just replacing a quiver, after laying down a huge chunk of change on her new rig. 

This has changed my outlook on the matter. I thought it was a good thing, to help differentiate between two styles of archery. Now, having seen this girl's reaction, I'm not so sure. 

John, you're a prophet.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not a prophet, just someone that's been around archery in the U.S. for a while. The response here in the US to WA's new rules banning camo is easy to predict. And it won't be just the folks who have to make an equipment or clothing change. It will be their parents, their friends and those who support them, plus all those who see this as an inappropriate intrusion on US archery by an outside organization. There will be folks who never wore camo or ever had a camo bow or accesory, who do just because of this rule. I will be one of those. Even though I've never worn camo or had any kind of camo bow or accessory on the target line, I will now and I hope others will too.

Let them throw me out of nationals for wearing camo so I can file a protest. I want to see them try to define "camo." LOL.

Remember, this is the nation where the tea was thrown overboard to protest foreign overreach.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Remember, this is the nation where the tea was thrown overboard to protest foreign overreach.


Also remember that the NAA, and 6 other NGBs, **created FITA** in the 30s to make uniform international rules so we could compete internationally. This monster is on us :wink: (But I'm blaming the French :embara: )


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I understand that, but the tail shouldn't wag the dog.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Not a prophet, just someone that's been around archery in the U.S. for a while. The response here in the US to WA's new rules banning camo is easy to predict. And it won't be just the folks who have to make an equipment or clothing change. It will be their parents, their friends and those who support them, plus all those who see this as an inappropriate intrusion on US archery by an outside organization. There will be folks who never wore camo or ever had a camo bow or accesory, who do just because of this rule. I will be one of those. Even though I've never worn camo or had any kind of camo bow or accessory on the target line, I will now and I hope others will too.
> 
> Let them throw me out of nationals for wearing camo so I can file a protest. I want to see them try to define "camo." LOL.
> 
> Remember, this is the nation where the tea was thrown overboard to protest foreign overreach.


I will try and make my point again that camo is the NEW fashion trend (Elle) and the definition of what is "camo" is going to be so blurred to render the rule silly and implementation capricious. I got a chance to see Collin Klimitchek's camo RX and it was gorgeous. But, the judges at an international tournament had a fit. Urban camo clothing is everywhere and to be honest "plaid" could be interpreted as camo.

http://www.elle.com/fashion/g8405/camouflage-clothes-accessories/?slide=21

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/fashion/camouflage-styles-stand-crowd-article-1.1550941

One other thought. Some of us are old enough to remember the "cold war". It was American fashion and culture as much as anything that led to the end of the cold war and the removal of the Berlin wall. I watched a recent documentary on Billy Joel's tour in the USSR in 1987. It was a defining moment in moving the Soviets away from the classic communist model. The people wanted more American culture and fashion. So, the current vogue of Americans apologizing for everything including our fashion just seems nuts to me, especially when the American culture and fashion continue to influence the world. Camo just happens to be an emerging fashion trend and in banning it just seems so counter culture.


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

b0w_bender said:


> I think limbwalkers point was clear. If it is a bad ill contrived rule than we owe it to the participants to say no that is in fact a stupid rule lets either not adopt it for USArchery or fix it.
> 
> Way back on page one the initial premise of this discussion was simple. Most youth compound bows come in one color choice... Camo. So the US manufacturers are selling them like hotcakes in camo color and from what I've heard they are having a real hard time meeting the demand. So we can either choose to exclude all those archers who are buying them or we can choose not to adopt the no camo equipment rules. I think generally more participants are better so I choose the latter. Keep in mind a lot of the kids who may be buying these bows likely have never even heard of USArchery or Word Archery or FITA. They simply enjoy shooting a bow. Now if someone finds them and starts working with them and educates them on all the opportunities why would they choose to go buy yet another bow when they have literally hundreds of other events they could attend that don't discriminate against their bow color.
> 
> I will also state that I have no problem what so ever having a no camo policy for world ranking events (assuming they can define what camo is). I will defer to my bretherin on the other side of the pond who say camo has a negative connotation. I wouldn't categorize it that way here in the US certainly not in the archery communities. However I'm big enough to say perhaps the US shouldn't dictate world archery rules. So if it is generally agreed upon to have a no camo equipment at WA ranking events then so be it. Anyone affluent enough to attend one of those events can afford a second bow or a new paint job. However if it is the USArchery's job to find the best US archers then it would be irresponsible for USArchery to dictate no camo at their everyday tournaments and events simply because we might miss the next Brady Ellison (Who hunts and I'm sure owns a camo bow or 2).



Bow Bender,
You have hit the nail on the head. I think the fallout from a rule similiar to this would have a huge impact on youth archery programs. Last night we had a 4-H/JOAD practice, we have 11 compound shooters. 10 of the bows are camo. The market is not excatly flooded with target color bows for kids, and even if it was, most of the youth that join these programs already have a bow when they sign up. Will we then have to tell parents "great to have Johnny/Suzy, but before they can compete with us, they will need to go buy a new bow"? I also have no big problem with dress codes and if the world stage wants to ban camo, then so be it. I just hope that USAA recognizes and puts some common sense into any descion they make that affects the grassroots and youth archery programs.


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## krakin (Apr 13, 2014)

lol, so we must stop all forms of camo in order to blend in with everyone else as opposed to blending in with nature. By all blending in with everyone else, is that not a form of camouflage? If I shoot Olympics in a gillie suit then I'd stand out like a sore thumb - is that not the antithesis of camo and hence legal?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

krakin said:


> lol, so we must stop all forms of camo in order to blend in with everyone else as opposed to blending in with nature. By all blending in with everyone else, is that not a form of camouflage? If I shoot Olympics in a gillie suit then I'd stand out like a sore thumb - is that not the antithesis of camo and hence legal?


I love the way you think.  ha, ha.

Again, defining what is or is not "camo" is going to be entertaining to watch. Esp. when most of the field judges who work USArchery events have closets full of camo. :mg:


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

some uses of camo clothing have nothing to do with hunting but to honor the military such as in professional sports on Memorial Day and Veterans day.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I love the way you think.  ha, ha.
> 
> Again, defining what is or is not "camo" is going to be entertaining to watch. Esp. when most of the field judges who work USArchery events have closets full of camo. :mg:


I can't wait to see some of the hissy-fits some of the overly competitive parents will throw as an attempt to get a rival kid disqualified. Particularly since WA has seemingly made no effort to define what would constitutes camo?


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Last_Bastion said:


> For every one person that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that there are two more that would be uncomfortable competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!


I realize that what you say is actually true but that doesn't make that mentality rational. I don't deal well with irrational people.
If the color of my clothing or my bow is so important are there other things that make those folks become incontinent with fear? ( Just so I avoid offending anyone)

It used to be that people with "real bows" used to have that reaction around people with bows that had wheels. Are we headed back that way?
If you show up and you can hurl arrows better than everyone else while wearing a camo speedo you should win. That is it.

Rules which prevent you from having an unfair advantage and define the competition are legitimate. Ones that arbitrarily determine which fashion print your clothing or bow can or cannot be are simply nonsensical.

BTW If you scan the old "interweb" as my mother calls it, you find that camo print clothing is popular in a lot of places that don't have a 2nd amendment.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> Rules which prevent you from having an unfair advantage and define the competition are legitimate. Ones that arbitrarily determine which fashion print your clothing or bow can or cannot be are simply nonsensical.


They are quite "sensical" if the org wants to project a certain look in media. You can disagree with the goal of creating a look for national and international target archery that is distinct from field archery (camo is allowed in FITA Field) but you can't legitimately claim there is no rational thinking behind the rule. Just as there is $$$ behind the marketing of camo in the US, I'd bet there is also money on the line in creating a professional, non-hunting look for target archery to attract certain kinds of sponsorships. Keep in mind that although FITA does field archery, most of FITA's money (as with USAA) is directly related to its role as a governing body for Olympic target archery, so rule making is colored by those considerations.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Warbow said:


> They are quite "sensical" if the org wants to project a certain look in media. You can disagree with the goal of creating a look for national and international target archery that is distinct from field archery (camo is allowed in FITA Field) but you can't legitimately claim there is no rational thinking behind the rule. Just as there is $$$ behind the marketing of camo in the US, I'd bet there is also money on the line in creating a professional, non-hunting look for target archery to attract certain kinds of sponsorships. Keep in mind that although FITA does field archery, most of FITA's money (as with USAA) is directly related to its role as a governing body for Olympic target archery, so rule making is colored by those considerations.


Yeah. I get all of that. I am simply offended by people cultivating images. My parents taught us that it is what you know and what you can do that is relevant and that if anyone cares more about what you look like then ignore them. We live in a world that is way too image conscious. We make teenage girls bulimic by letting media convince them they need to look a certain way. We have kids buying
clothes with holes pre-worn in them (didn't you have to do work or go outside to wear out your clothes when you were a kid?). Everything is about image and little is about substance. Particularly
when it comes to kids being involved in the sport I we could let them get down to business and forget the image crap. That would be refreshing though probably unrealistic.....

Ouch. Fell off my soap box.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For every one person that wants to use camo and is discouraged from competing based on that there are two more that would be uncomfortable competing next to someone that looks like they just came off a hunt!





> I realize that what you say is actually true


Don't fall for it. It's not true. Not here in the U.S. at least, and from the sound of it, not in Aus. either.

Besides the logic above is pretty absurd if you ask me. We're okay with KEEPING a kid from shooting just so two don't "feel uncomfortable?" Seriously? Maybe the two need to get over their irrational fears so the one can continue to enjoy the sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> They are quite "sensical" if the org wants to project a certain look in media


Well it seems that the most popular sports in the TV world (professional football, baseball, college football, etc.) have ZERO problem with seeing camo on their athletes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cam...&sa=X&ei=8vg6VdrfIcrgoAS_oIAY&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

https://www.google.com/search?q=cam...=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=camo+football+jerseys

Maybe archery needs to get with the program.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

You know what's really funny, the sport with traditionally the strictest dress code, golf, will allow camo (no ban on camo at Augusta National or St. Andrews) but you'd get tossed if you wore the black and camo Hoyt shooters shirt you'd be disqualified at a WA/USAA archery event.

You want to know why this sport doesn't get non-industry sponsors or any tv time? It's because it does not embrace it's roots and tries to be something it never was intended to be. Look at Nascar and the PBR, huge money in those two because they embrace their roots.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nick Faldo - World Golf hall of famer and popular MAJOR NETWORK TV commentator - just said "I liked him (Boo Weekley) in camouflage. Maybe we need more camouflage." 

ROTF...!

This from a* European* announcer for *GOLF*. 

Where is WA coming up with this "no camo" nonsense?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> You know what's really funny, the sport with traditionally the strictest dress code, golf, will allow camo (no ban on camo at Augusta National or St. Andrews) but you'd get tossed if you wore the black and camo Hoyt shooters shirt you'd be disqualified at a WA/USAA archery event.
> 
> You want to know why this sport doesn't get non-industry sponsors or any tv time? It's because it does not embrace it's roots and tries to be something it never was intended to be. Look at Nascar and the PBR, huge money in those two because they embrace their roots.


The roots of target archery date from medieval volley archery through the high society European target archery of the 17 and 1800s through the classic recurve target archery of the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. You know what was consistent during all of that? No camo. Camo has nothing to do with the history of target archery. Nothing. It's a modern thing. If you like it, fine, enjoy. But it is not part of the history of target archery.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

This is silly. Nature is beautiful - what is wrong with looking like it?

A dress code should be more about decency - the prescence/absence and length of pants, shirts, etc. - and less about fabric or pattern.

And I get back to my beautiful snakeskin-backed limbs - are those camo? Yes, in one sense, but also no, they are just beautiful.

I am with Limbwalker - guess who will be wearing and/or shooting camo at the next USAA event I attend?


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

Everyone seems to be worked up over something that has not even happened yet. This is a World Archery rule that, if passed will deal with World Archery Events only starting with World Ranking Events (WRE). The only WRE in the U.S. is the AZ Cup. USA Archery has not made any comment on the rule, simply because it has not been voted on by WA. I am sure they are waiting to see what kind of clarification comes out of WA Congress. It most likely will pass, but it should not effect any U.S. events except one. You do not have to shoot in that tournament, there are three others (I am saying this as the tournament director of the AZ Cup).

The no Camo rule for clothing has been around for years and no one seemed to care except now? When it comes to the kids equipment, yes, camo compound bows are what is sold, but by the time the archers get to the Cadet level, the first level for International tournaments most have gone through a couple of bows and will have time to meet any rule. Camo equipment at this years AZ Cup was far a few between, we were looking for it to see how it might effect us in 2016.

I can see USA Archery coming out with a statement concerning Camo, letting membership know that if they are planning to shoot in an international event to be prepared for this rule change, but for every other USA Archery tournament, the rules will stay the same as they are now, no camo clothing, but bows and accessories are ok. 

I will say this, the way the archers dressed at the AZ Cup this year was pretty ugly, probably the worst I have seen. The rules were followed, but may archers just looked bad. I for one would like our USA Archery dress code to be cleaned up a little.


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## JByers (Jul 18, 2007)

Right on Limbwalker. With a one word substitution from the NRA slogan: "I will give up my camo (gun) when they peel my dead cold fingers from around it." PC has gone to far this time.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

ohh wow, still on this...... 
i think i am starting to get it, it common sense or lack of it, i sust cant see anyone , and i mean no one, turning away a kid or making them feel bad for their attire at an archery tournament, at provincial lever or lower, that would just be plain ignorant, it just wouldnt happen, now if you are spending money travelling and attending bigger tournaments, shooting at such a level. be assured we as instructors have done our jobs and you have been made aware of the rules and are willing to comply as shooting is your only concern, not fighting rules to suite your fashon sense.

bottom line, we exercise common sense, and our passive nature wouldnt allow a 6 page discussion on it, we would just say, its dosnt make sense and move on. now for those that would even consider blindly following rules and not exercising common sense i get the need for the lenghty discussion.

wayne


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Warbow said:


> The roots of target archery date from medieval volley archery through the high society European target archery of the 17 and 1800s through the classic recurve target archery of the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. You know what was consistent during all of that? No camo. Camo has nothing to do with the history of target archery. Nothing. It's a modern thing. If you like it, fine, enjoy. But it is not part of the history of target archery.


That may be the case but history is not what gets kids interested in archery, fun is. I would venture a hefty bet that the number of kids who sign up for archery lessons due to what they
perceive as a dress code which enhances the image of the activity is pretty minimal. Some kids don't even like to wear an arm guard.

I will second the comment made previously that no kid should be turned away because the of color of his clothing or bow. It is good to see any kid out doing an activity instead of parked in front of a video game or frantically thumbing their phone. As an adult I can suck it up and chose to attend or not attend events based on the level of snobbery I perceive to be present. I mostly chose to abstain since archery can be enjoyed by one's self trying to perfect the shot. No other person who might be offended is required.

The archery "establishment" does not necessarily do what is good for the future of the sport. It does what it feels necessary to keep the cash flowing and perpetuate itself.

BTW in the early days of archery a ghillie suit constituted camo. I challenge anyone to wear that on the line!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mike, you know full well that this:



> Everyone seems to be worked up over something that has not even happened yet.


Is how this:



> I can see USA Archery coming out with a statement concerning Camo, letting membership know that if they are planning to shoot in an international event to be prepared for this rule change, but for every other USA Archery tournament, the rules will stay the same as they are now, no camo clothing, but bows and accessories are ok.


happens. 

They see the wave coming, and turn and paddle away.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The rules were followed, but may archers just looked bad. I for one would like our USA Archery dress code to be cleaned up a little.


And I agree with you here. The line is a lot sloppier than it was when I started in 2004. And some of our "elites" are the worst offenders, but in the case of one of them, it was on purpose, to make a point. He said so himself.

John


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

mcullumber said:


> Everyone seems to be worked up over something that has not even happened yet.......


This is actually a good thing, that everyone is getting all worked up over this "BEFORE" the rules are voted on. It is far easier to affect rule changes before they become official than after they are adopted.

The leadership of USAA comes up with ideas that "THEY" think is a good idea. If they make these ideas public with sufficient time for public comment, then there is an opportunity for the idea to be vetted out by those who are affected by the idea. Some ideas are good ones, and others are bad ones. In most cases the bad ones are bad because people don't think through the implications of how that idea will affect everyone.

So lets make sure that those who vote on these ideas, are aware of the opinions of those who these ideas impact.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

Mr. Roboto said:


> This is actually a good thing, that everyone is getting all worked up over this "BEFORE" the rules are voted on. It is far easier to affect rule changes before they become official than after they are adopted.
> 
> The leadership of USAA comes up with ideas that "THEY" think is a good idea. If they make these ideas public with sufficient time for public comment, then there is an opportunity for the idea to be vetted out by those who are affected by the idea. Some ideas are good ones, and others are bad ones. In most cases the bad ones are bad because people don't think through the implications of how that idea will affect everyone.
> 
> So lets make sure that those who vote on these ideas, are aware of the opinions of those who these ideas impact.


Please understand that this is not a USA Archery rule, it will be a World Archery rule that will effect WRE tournament and above. The rule is on the agenda at WA Congress. When a rule is put on the agenda, the votes are already in. Nothing goes on the agenda to fail.


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## Sarg_79_ (Dec 31, 2014)

No camo allowed at World Archery sanctioned events....

Rest of the world... "meh"

USA... 7 pages of outrage on AT lol


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

True, but USAA is not required to follow the exact rules that WA comes up with. USAA can choose to follow all of the rules, or just some of them.

A year ago USAA decided to drop barebow, and one of the reasons they published as a reason was so that they will be compliant with WA rules. But there was an outcry on that decision, so they are now bringing it back to the outdoor nationals this summer. I am encouraged that they made the decision to consider the desires of their membership.

On the same analogy, USAA can decide to make anything camo illegal and hide behind the WA rules, or they can be responsive to their membership. So lets make sure that USAA leadership is well aware of what their membership/customer base feels about the rule. Make the informed decision instead of putting the fix in like how it goes behind closed doors at WA offices.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mr. Roboto said:


> True, but USAA is not required to follow the exact rules that WA comes up with. USAA can choose to follow all of the rules, *or just some of them.*


Not for a world ranking event they can't. I think that's mcullumber's point.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sarg_79_ said:


> No camo allowed at World Archery sanctioned events....
> 
> Rest of the world... "meh"
> 
> USA... 7 pages of outrage on AT lol


The 7 pages are mostly in reaction to the IDEA that USArchery may (stupidly) follow suit. I have zero issues with following international rules as they are set, if it's an international ranking event. But if USArchery willfully caves to nonsense at the expense of their membership - and particularly many young archers - yea, I'm outraged at the thought of that.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Today was the 2015 Arizona State Outdoor.

We had 110 archers, broken up in bow type as follows: 4 Barebow, 77 Compound and 28 Recurve.

Of the 77 Compound bows, 9 were Camo. The rest were Target colored bows. The 68 target colored bows, 4 were black.

Of the 9 Camo bows, 8 were youth bows. The overwhelming reason for the 8 that were camo was the lack of availability of a good shorter draw bow in target colors. 2013l and older Ruckus's are getting very hard to find. No one wants to part with them. As soon as kids can pull back 30 pounds and have a draw length of 22 or longer, they buy target specific bows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

RickBac said:


> Today was the 2015 Arizona State Outdoor.
> 
> We had 110 archers, broken up in bow type as follows: 4 Barebow, 77 Compound and 28 Recurve.
> 
> ...


Interesting numbers, but we have to be careful to be sure we don't make this issue about the numbers. It's about what's right and why. People who are offended by camo need to just get over it, the way I and others get over their nose rings, dreadlocks, inappropriate clothing, tattoos or whatever else someone may be offended by. 

It's interesting to me we'd even be having this discussion since some of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen on archers are on some of our most high profile athletes. IMO, those tattoos make the sport look more unprofessional than some kid's camo bow.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Interesting numbers, but we have to be careful to be sure we don't make this issue about the numbers. It's about what's right and why. People who are offended by camo need to just get over it, the way I and others get over their nose rings, dreadlocks, inappropriate clothing, tattoos or whatever else someone may be offended by.
> 
> It's interesting to me we'd even be having this discussion since some of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen on archers are on some of our most high profile athletes. IMO, those tattoos make the sport look more unprofessional than some kid's camo bow.


I think there is more than one way to "frame" this issue. You are framing camo in target archery as America and Personal Freedom, and about people being "offended" by Freedom, or something. I think for FITA is is creating two brands, Target Archery and Field Archery. FITA isn't against camo, otherwise it wouldn't allow it in FITA Field. FITA is trying to differentiate its brands.

But, just to make some heads explode, what happens if a national or world class Target archer gets a prominent camo sleeve tat on their draw arm? :mg:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You are framing camo in target archery as America and Personal Freedom, and about people being "offended" by Freedom





> or something



"Or something" is right. You don't get it Warbow.

My first point is the same that Tom has made - it's people's right to choose camo as a style, just the way it's their right to choose tattoos (many of which I consider unsightly and distasteful), piercings, matted nappy hair or any other "style." 

It's absurd and an insult to intelligent people to suggest that somehow camouflage is offensive, but some of the tattoos and piercings we see on the field these days, are helping the image of the sport.

My second point is that a proposed ban on camo further smacks of elitism that many archers accuse target archers, and fita target archers in particular, of already. Elitism because they expect some kid or even an adult to buy a second bow besides their hunting bow, to participate.

But I'm out on this. I'm not going to argue anymore with you or anyone else that is going to try and "explain" why camo should be banned. 

If and when USArchery makes a ruling on it, I will then decide how to respond to it, just like many others.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> "Or something" is right. You don't get it Warbow.
> 
> My first point is the same that Tom has made - it's people's right to choose camo as a style, just the way it's their right to choose tattoos (many of which I consider unsightly and distasteful), piercings, matted nappy hair or any other "style."
> 
> My second point is that a proposed ban on camo further smacks of elitism that many archers already target archers, and fita target archers in particular, of already. Elitism because they expect some kid or even an adult to buy a second bow besides their hunting bow, to participate.


It's people's "right" to wear torn jeans, too. But that doesn't fly at tournaments, and, AFIK, you have no problem with that rule.

I think your more convincing argument, the one I sympathize with, is the barrier to entry. You have kids with camo equipment who can't afford special dedicated target bows. And there aren't many (any?) quality, small, kid's target bows that aren't camo anyways. That argument I think has some merit. The Camo as freedom of expression argument is kind of "meh" to me. You already don't have freedom of speech at USAA tournaments in terms of your what you wear - the rules say, IIRC, that shirts that say something that people find offensive are banned - and that is a really, really ambiguous rule. I might find Martin bows "offensive". So you don't have freedom to begin with. 

I do have sympathy for your "archery is too elite" arguments as well. Even though you and your wife are both college educated professionals, you make strong arguments for keeping USAA and target archery open to *everyone* and you put your money and time where your argument is, too, helping people out for free, and keeping things down to earth - which I genuinely respect you for. But, is camo really central to that? I'm still not really convinced, though I'm not entrenched the other way, either.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

First, and several of us have said this previously in this thread, this is not a rule in USA Archery, yet. It may never be.
If it is it may only be at Nationals and USAT tournaments.

It may be moot for entry level archers. Local tournaments will possibly never be effected.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

RickBac said:


> First, and several of us have said this previously in this thread, this is not a rule in USA Archery, yet. It may never be.
> If it is it may only be at Nationals and USAT tournaments.
> 
> It may be moot for entry level archers. Local tournaments will possibly never be effected.


That may be true but should everyone remain silent until those running the show make it a rule?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> That maybe true but should everyone remain silent until those running the show make it a rule?


Even though I'm pretty meh on this and not convinced that Camo Freedom is a vital issue for national target archery tournaments, I do think that contesting things while they are still being considered and *before* they are possibly locked in as a rule is entirely appropriate. If people don't contest the possibility now, I expect someone will say, "Well, you should have said something..."


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

So, does anyone have a viewpoint and more information on the NFAA Director's meeting and their voting on a camo ban??


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## Delw (Mar 28, 2014)

I happen to see this thread while looking for the new rule if any or any update (ie the camo vs non camo deal). I look at it this way it is what it is. and its going to be what its going to be.

What rick mentioned above he was correct about the numbers in this tourny and the tournies in arizona, I dont know about other states.

My daughter is one of those girls that Rick mentioned that has a camo bows and shoots them at tournies.

Diamond in my opinion( but that doesnt amount to much as I dont know squat about archery except how to kill stuff) was the best thing since sliced bread for a young kid. because of the huge draw length and weight adjustments not to mention the price factor and you can use it for both hunting and target shooting.
plus they are girls and what girl doesnt love a pink camo bow. Daughter got into archery to hunt mainly and actually sparked my interest back in hunting with a bow.No she never saw the movies. She hunted yotes with me almost every weekend with firearms. one day we were in the garage cleaning the guns and she asked when I was going to start bow hunting again and if I ever got a yote with one. told her I been hunting yotes since 82 and only killed less than 6 with my bow cause it was next to impossible to call them in and shoot one with a bow, well I guess that was a challenge as she hasn't picked up a firearm for hunting or shooting except skeet since. its been over 2 years.

The Warden told me not to buy her a bow right away she knows how I am, and my oldest daughter 10 years older we went through 3 bows in 1 year to get the right fit at about the same age, then she came out with other interest and archery wasn't her thing. so The Warden thought we might be wasting money again.
Kid decided to buy her own bow with her own money on layaway at the store we frequent, said she would sell it if she decided to give it up, Deal was if she kept her grades up and homework done she could buy it and shoot archery as much as she wants.. she never missed an assignment yet and gets straight A's. she bought it 2 years ago. she shot it in many tournies, leagues and basically 4-5 times a week at the shop we frequent. it served her well,and she uses it only for yote hunting and hunting now. The kid Loves archery she shoots at my shop after school some times.
She wants a new target bow but the brand she wants doesnt have one in her Draw length and she is dead set on a specific brand which beastmaster can attest to.
She ended up getting carbon rose for Christmas I figured at the very least she could use it till they have this issue settled and in the mean time she will grow her draw length, then she could use the camo carbon rose for just hunting and or 3d.

What I have seen/observed over the 2 years I been going to the local archery shops is mainly girls buying the pink camo diamonds, young girls and small framed girls. they walk into that shop or cabelas and the pink camo is like a magnet to them. they get the best of both worlds there dads hunt with camo bows and they get pink. and everybody who has daughters know that girls are daddy's girls and like to do the things there dads do but they still like pink.

My daughter knows the day is coming that she may have to give up the camo bow during tournies, she doesnt like it and whines to me about it when she heres talk about it. but she knows rules are rules. she is still hoping to grow another 1/2" in draw length before the rule change if any. she drives her coach nuts I am sure every week asking if she grew any more yet.

BTW
For those people who are on a fixed budget or just have stubborn daughters that are brand specific, there are other options to fix it if they have too. some are cheap and some are expensive.
they can get it powder coated, they can get it striped/polished and annodized, they can paint it in the back yard. one of my buddies even mentioned they could wrap it ( like they do with wraps on boats cars etc.)

Delw


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Warbow said:


> It's people's "right" to wear torn jeans, too. But that doesn't fly at tournaments, and, AFIK, you have no problem with that rule.


Warbow, I don't think this is an apples to apples comparison. The solution to the clothing problem can be as easy as $15 and 15 minutes spent down at Wal-Mart. The solution to the color on the bow is several hundred $$ and hours of tuning to solve. So, it's not really fair to compare the two. Yes, they do both have to do with camo and I get your point, but I just don't see it as that simple of a comparison.

EDIT: Right on, Delw! Who wants to explain to a little girl that she can't shoot that pink camo bow that she is incredibly proud of because it's not the right color?


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I do not mean for people to be silent. 

If you have a concern about the possibility of no camo bows then let USA Archery know. Call them, send them an email. Talk to your local JOAD coordinator.

Be heard to the right people.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

RickBac said:


> I do not mean for people to be silent.
> 
> If you have a concern about the possibility of no camo bows then let USA Archery know. Call them, send them an email. Talk to your local JOAD coordinator.
> 
> Be heard to the right people.


:darkbeer:


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## Sarg_79_ (Dec 31, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> The 7 pages are mostly in reaction to the IDEA that USArchery may (stupidly) follow suit. I have zero issues with following international rules as they are set, if it's an international ranking event. But if USArchery willfully caves to nonsense at the expense of their membership - and particularly many young archers - yea, I'm outraged at the thought of that.


Ha the aussie forum i go on had 5 pages i just missed it, its just not the yanks 

Camo bows and equipment should be ok imo as some if the patterns are pretty cool, just the clothes lol.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

Great idea. Make an already unpopular sport more restrictive. Who comes up with this crap?


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

stillern said:


> Who comes up with this crap?


LMAO welcome to world archery :BangHead:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

stillern said:


> Great idea. Make an already unpopular sport more restrictive. Who comes up with this crap?


There's actually a balance, though. Without rules, it's just a hobbiy. Restrictions are what turn hobbies into competitive sports.

Though, I'm not sure that rules against camo equipment are really a good example of that. :dontknow:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Warbow said:


> I'm not sure that rules against camo equipment are really a good example of that. :dontknow:


Correct, the color of ones finger sling or bow or arm-guard or underwear for that matter have nothing to do with the competitive outcome of an athletic event.

As stated before World ranking events should have a clean professional look to them, I agree and I'm OK with those events being restrictive in clothing and equipment finishes. It's the every day events that need to be inclusive.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

So, are pink tiger or white tiger bows considered to be camo bows?

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/mission-menace-compound-bow-custom-colors.html

Thank you.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Osmanthus said:


> So, are pink tiger or white tiger bows considered to be camo bows?
> 
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/mission-menace-compound-bow-custom-colors.html
> 
> Thank you.


That depends on whether or not you see the world through rose colored glasses of course!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

What is the best way to teach which “rules” are critical vs less than critical?
i.e. a 70m world record cannot be set on a 70 yard target.
Verse rules that are to promote the sport;
i.e. 2016 Judge: “ I see that you have camo bow, arrows and camo on your hat.” Archer: “Yes, the shop that sold them said it was all legal.” Judge: “It’s a new international rule to promote the sport of target archery as separate from hunting. It’s not a problem at this national tourney, however if you compete in a WA international tourney, the no camo rule applies. I suspect you will have a different bow, arrows and hat that are WA compliant if or when you compete internationally. So have fun and good luck. Please feel free to ask for help any questions you might have.”

The problem with this example is that a week later, a newly registered judge declares the archers ineligible because they have camo, the family leaves and never competes again. Or an archer shows up at an international tourney with camo equipment and is turned away with the archers asking, “Why is it allowed in one place but not the others, why don’t they just have one set of rules.”

Is it reasonable to expect the archers, coaches, club leaders, retailers and judges to comprehend that there are different types of rules where some are strictly enforced while can be waved? Understanding the rules intent can be difficult for many people.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Is it reasonable to expect the archers, coaches, club leaders, retailers and judges to comprehend that there are different types of rules where some are strictly enforced while can be waved?


Yes. We do this all the time. We have a lot of divisions in USArchery that are not recognized by WA. Do judges walk up and "inform" them that they won't be allowed to shoot their division at an international event? Nope. They just enjoy watching them shoot, knowing it doesn't matter whether that archer knows that or not.

Sometimes, a judge's job is to just remain silent when there isn't an infraction taking place.

John


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Yes. We do this all the time. We have a lot of divisions in USArchery that are not recognized by WA. Do judges walk up and "inform" them that they won't be allowed to shoot their division at an international event? Nope. They just enjoy watching them shoot, knowing it doesn't matter whether that archer knows that or not.
> 
> Sometimes, a judge's job is to just remain silent when there isn't an infraction taking place.
> 
> John


Yup agreed 



Serious Fun said:


> Is it reasonable to expect the archers, coaches, club leaders, retailers and judges to comprehend that there are different types of rules where some are strictly enforced while can be waved? Understanding the rules intent can be difficult for many people.


It has been my experience that if an archer is attending a world ranking event they are relatively committed to the competitive rules that govern those more elevated events. If not they usually have a coach that will inform them. So the chances that someone will be turned away from one of those events is relatively small. 

However your local community shoot is really likely to see some first time archers and excluding them would be less than ideal.

I don't think a rule should be waved if it's a rule it should be adhered to, this is why many people have weighed in on this and asked that USArchery not incorporate this rule for US Archery events. We have very little say in what WA does with their rules but as a member of USArchery I feel some what compelled to express my thoughts on the matter.

When it comes to retailers knowing the rules... I know this may be hard to believe by those totally immersed in the JOAD USArchery bubble but many of the retailers not only have never heard of USArchery they have very little concern for their rules. In the USA hunting is what sells equipment. You'll find a 1000 camo compound retailers for every 1 Olympic recurve resellers. Being more restrictive would like just exacerbate that disparity.


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## slopoke36 (Apr 11, 2013)

Can you shoot a camp bow at Vegas?


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## slopoke36 (Apr 11, 2013)

*camo


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes, you can shoot a camo bow at Vegas.



chris


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## thebigcchambers (Mar 16, 2016)

....


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Bring back all white and call it a day. There actually were archery competitions before camo existed. When I wanted to start competing I had to buy white and all the other expected stuff. Too much whining nowadays.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

target1 said:


> Bring back all white and call it a day. There actually were archery competitions before camo existed. When I wanted to start competing I had to buy white and all the other expected stuff. Too much whining nowadays.


Yes because excluding people for what they are wearing or the color of their bow is a great way to increase popularity in the sport! 'he said dripping with sarcasm"


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

target1 said:


> Bring back all white and call it a day. There actually were archery competitions before camo existed. When I wanted to start competing I had to buy white and all the other expected stuff. Too much whining nowadays.


My dad was an avid field archer in the 50's and 60's. I got involved in archery in the 70's. My dad was kind of annoyed when I started hanging out with
"those FITA people" because as he put it they were a bunch of arrogant *******s. That is the perception that a lot of field archers and bowhunters had of the
olympic style target archery crowd. Why do we need to further that sort of image?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> My dad was an avid field archer in the 50's and 60's. I got involved in archery in the 70's. My dad was kind of annoyed when I started hanging out with
> "those FITA people" because as he put it they were a bunch of arrogant *******s. That is the perception that a lot of field archers and bowhunters had of the
> olympic style target archery crowd. Why do we need to further that sort of image?


One could equally ask why do we need to pander to people who are biased against target archers? Is there really anything we can do that will completely satisfy them? :dontknow:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> My dad was an avid field archer in the 50's and 60's. I got involved in archery in the 70's. My dad was kind of annoyed when I started hanging out with
> "those FITA people" because as he put it they were a bunch of arrogant *******s. That is the perception that a lot of field archers and bowhunters had of the
> olympic style target archery crowd. Why do we need to further that sort of image?


One could equally ask why do we need to pander to people who are biased against target archers? Is there really anything we can do that will completely satisfy them? Would your dad have said, "They allow camo? Well then I feel completely different about them. Go target archery!"? :dontknow:


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Warbow said:


> One could equally ask why do we need to pander to people who are biased against target archers? Is there really anything we can do that will completely satisfy them? :dontknow:


Well that depends on how many people you want to show up and/or participate in whatever activity you are trying to promote.
You don't have to "pander" to anyone if you are not interested in attracting more people but all the effort that the USAA and World Archery
have put into making the sport media friendly and crap like that suggests that they are trying to attract more interest.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> Well that depends on how many people you want to show up and/or participate in whatever activity you are trying to promote.
> You don't have to "pander" to anyone if you are not interested in attracting more people but all the effort that the USAA and World Archery
> have put into making the sport media friendly and crap like that suggests that they are trying to attract more interest.


I don't think it is really that clear cut. Sometimes loose rules can make it theoretically possible for more people to participate, but that doesn't mean outsiders will respect the org more or actually attend.. Other times, stricter rules make the game more professional looking and attract more people to it. So I think it can cut both ways. 

Should tennis allow camo? Would that allow more people to play tennis? I think not. 

I don't really have strong feelings about this either way, except that I think the rule is pretty trivial to follow as far as clothes go. Bows, though, are more expensive and not something people necessarily have extras of in different paint, so that is a bit of a different issue.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hear people who attend Emory University are offended by camo and want it banned.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Sigh.

The United States is not sitting alone in it's desire to see the "No Camo" rule disappear. I know that countries like Canada, China, and South Africa are among many others would like to see the rule go away.

Unfortunately, within the World Archery realm, we're not the only country wanting or trying to set the rules. There are some countries that flat out make wearing camo and owning camo accessories illegal. For example, in 2010, the country of Jamaica and their parliament ruled that you cannot own camo clothing or any camo colored accessories. My wife (who works for Xerox) encountered that rule right after the rule passed. She had a camo pen and a snow camo pair of shorts impounded when she went to visit the Xerox office in Jamaica.

Other countries have similar rules. And, some countries view the wearing of camo as a representation of an oppressive country (read: they don't like their own country and it's government). So World Archery has pretty much then ruled out Camo clothing, accessories, and bows.

Canada, China, and South Africa's argument is that World Archery is disenfranchising up and coming archers. Other countries are coming back saying that you can order a bow with any color you want.

For US based archers - want to play the World Archery game? Have a non-camo colored bow. If not, there are many other pools to go play in. And USA Archery isn't playing that game unless you want to travel outside the United States.

-Steve


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I hear people who attend Emory University are offended by camo and want it banned.


I hope a nice warm safe room with fresh cookies, stuffed animals and soothing ocean noises will do in the mean time... :embara:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think they get to claim 30% disability for having to look at it. But that's just a rumor. It's probably more.


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## IA Monsterbuck (Jul 18, 2006)

Mulcade said:


> Warbow, I don't think this is an apples to apples comparison. The solution to the clothing problem can be as easy as $15 and 15 minutes spent down at Wal-Mart. The solution to the color on the bow is several hundred $$ and hours of tuning to solve. So, it's not really fair to compare the two. Yes, they do both have to do with camo and I get your point, but I just don't see it as that simple of a comparison.
> 
> EDIT: Right on, Delw! Who wants to explain to a little girl that she can't shoot that pink camo bow that she is incredibly proud of because it's not the right color?


Actually a $3 can of spray paint is cheaper than a $15 pair of pants. [emoji6]


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Warbow said:


> Should tennis allow camo?


Why should they NOT allow it? If you can play tennis in flipflops and be good at it then more power to you.

I was taught that it is the skills that you show up with (not just in sports but anywhere in life - work, etc) that matter not how you dress or how you look.
If you can put every one of your arrows in the x then screw them it they don't like your camo tshirt and flip flops.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rkumetz said:


> Why should they NOT allow it? If you can play tennis in flipflops and be good at it then more power to you.
> 
> I was taught that it is the skills that you show up with (not just in sports but anywhere in life - work, etc) that matter not how you dress or how you look.
> If you can put every one of your arrows in the x then screw them it they don't like your camo tshirt and flip flops.


Dress rules can be a bit of an odd thing. I still sort of cringe when I see old film footage of people doing sweaty work in full suits and ties. That was the work uniform of the day, but so impractical it's ridiculous. 

On the other hand, no sport is about just doing things your way. You don't get to use just any bow, method, distance, target and scoring system. You have to use those within the rules of competition. All competitive sports consist of rules that make the competitors do things the hard way. This is part of the difference between a competitive sport and a hobby.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Yup, people don't even ask WHY? anymore.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

zal said:


> In some countries that hold WA events running around with anything that resembles a weapon in camo gear is a sure way to get shot or at least arrested. Not every country in the world is as infatuated with camo and guns as people in US.


Well maybe they need to grow up. This PC crap has no room in archery, or at least it shouldn't.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

teebat said:


> Well maybe they need to grow up. This PC crap has no room in archery, or at least it shouldn't.


They didn't used to have rules against camo because there was no such thing. But, if you want, we could roll back the USAA rules to older, "better" times...here's how you should be dressed for target archery:









I have to say that I think having to shoot in frock coats would be much more of a challenge than having to give up camouflage clothing. There's a certain irony, I think, that the rules were perhaps less complained about when they we're more restrictive and told you what you did have to wear (white only; blue or khaki pants only; etc.), than when they were drastically loosened with just a couple of prohibitions left (no blue jeans, no camouflage).


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Or could be like some other modern sports.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

kshet26 said:


> Or could be like some other modern sports.
> 
> View attachment 4078225


I'm still surprised that those support suits are allowed - not because they look funny, but because they structurally aid the shooter. But check out those shoes. Somebody should add them to the archery shoes thread.


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