# How to correct "the wabble"



## Twistedx42 (Jan 30, 2015)

Assuming draw length is correct, and total mass weight of the bow is not more than you can handle, if the pin moves side to side add front weight or remove back weight. If the pin moves up and down add back weight or remove front weight.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Something of what Twistedx42 noted, bow fit and I'll add grip. Had a young man shoot my target bow a couple of days ago and my bow wobbled all through the shot. I had him watch me and my bow went dead, not wobble whatsoever. Watching him again I saw he was putting too much hand into the riser and he was pulling too hard. The same wobble can come from using a medium or high grip....


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> ... Watching him again I saw he was putting too much hand into the riser and he was pulling too hard.....


Relax that bowhand! 

I honestly think most people put too much emphasis on stabilizers and need to deal with the root causes before playing with moving weights. They're stabilizers...not magic.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with Bob 100%. Everything he said is spot on.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> Relax that bowhand!
> 
> I honestly think most people put too much emphasis on stabilizers and need to deal with the root causes before playing with moving weights. They're stabilizers...not magic.


Agree. Use to work at a archery shop where we held Indoor leagues. Watching shooters on the line I could pick out the better shots just by watching them. Stance, maybe not the greatest form, but repeated worked. Hands. Lord! Death like grips, fingers forced straight, too much thumb pressure. One young man, a teenager, was getting his forearm chewed to hamburger. Imagine having your hand turned to the just above the wrist laid on the strut of a Hoyt. Yep, he did. I instructed him, showed him and no longer got string slap. It didn't help. A few weeks later I heard he quit because he once again turning his forearm into hamburger.....

Stabilizers. Watched so many bow hunter rigs shoot outstandingly...My own hunting bow, it tips forward something awful and shoots just great. Told of it in a thread in this forum just recently. The bow, a 2009 Pearson TX4, will shoot a 5 spot 300 on command, 33 1/2" ata, 6 1/4" brace height and a 8" NAP Shock Blocker on the front and nothing on the back.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

I have better than average form, I won't say it perfect but it's fairly good. My draw length is measured and fits me well. I'm not leaning back, my bow weight feel comfortable, I run a 28" front bar 3oz 14" back bar with about 14 oz. it holds well but it doesn't settle, just wabbles left to right. 

Here is what I am prepping for some solutions. First I am going to focus on making sure my palm is relaxed it doesn't feel tense but I'll put emphasis on making sure it is relaxed and adding slight pressure to the front of the grip to get the bow to settle more quickly and stop the wobble. I have also just bought a shrewd 8* down angle QD and a new sidebar mount.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What do you mean "measured and it fits me well"?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> Relax that bowhand!
> 
> I honestly think most people put too much emphasis on stabilizers and need to deal with the root causes before playing with moving weights. They're stabilizers...not magic.


Bob is dead on. When your pin moves side to side, it's almost always the bow hand. You need to put the right part of your hand on the riser and you need to relax it. This was certainly the cure for when I was wabbling. Stabilizers are not magic wands. The best they can do is enhance an already good setup.

Allen


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

mhill said:


> I have better than average form, I won't say it perfect but it's fairly good. My draw length is measured and fits me well. I'm not leaning back, my bow weight feel comfortable, I run a 28" front bar 3oz 14" back bar with about 14 oz. it holds well but it doesn't settle, just wabbles left to right.
> 
> Here is what I am prepping for some solutions. First I am going to focus on making sure my palm is relaxed it doesn't feel tense but I'll put emphasis on making sure it is relaxed and adding slight pressure to the front of the grip to get the bow to settle more quickly and stop the wobble. I have also just bought a shrewd 8* down angle QD and a new sidebar mount.


Don't add the down angle QD before you try relaxing your grip. If you do both and the problem is fixed, you won't know what fixed the problem.


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## Twistedx42 (Jan 30, 2015)

I think taking a few weights off your back bar would be a good idea. I realize that every body prefers something a little different, but that is a lot of back weight compared to your front weight. 2 simple starting points are a 1 to 3 ratio, or front bar length x front weight ÷ back bar length = back weight. I'd really advise lightening the load especially if you are working on grip issues.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

grantmac said:


> What do you mean "measured and it fits me well"?


Measured wing span divided by 2.5 = 29". Shot 28.5" mods with a 1/2" d loop for a while and felt like my bow arm was still scrunched a little, went to 29" mods with a little shorter d loop feels good.


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## Twistedx42 (Jan 30, 2015)

Another thought I just had would be to take the bars off your bow. Shoot a vegas round or a couple vegas rounds with no bars, just the sight. Focus on your form. Make sure everything is right. Grip, shoulders, anchor all that good stuff. Really get a good feel for the bow. If the bow is fit to you correctly and your form is good, you should be able to shoot a decent score without the bars. If you can't I'd say you have things you need to work on.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

mhill said:


> Measured wing span divided by 2.5 = 29". Shot 28.5" mods with a 1/2" d loop for a while and felt like my bow arm was still scrunched a little, went to 29" mods with a little shorter d loop feels good.


You really need to get it set more precisely than that. You can see a DL change of 1/16" very easily.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

grantmac said:


> You really need to get it set more precisely than that. You can see a DL change of 1/16" very easily.


Yeah I plan to play with it. I think my 28.5" mods measured to the string 28.25 so I put a 3/4" d loop to make it an even 29". I didn't want to go any longer if d loop so I went up one mod size 1/2" and now playing with it to see if it feels good and if I shoot it well. My indoor bow I have only been shooting it for about 6 weeks still playing with it little by little to see what works best. I noticed with it being 29" to the back of the d loop my bow arm tricep would be fatigued after a around because I still had to use muscle to hold the bow instead of bone structure. That's why I went longer.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

mhill said:


> I have better than average form, I won't say it perfect but it's fairly good. My draw length is measured and fits me well. I'm not leaning back, my bow weight feel comfortable, I run a 28" front bar 3oz 14" back bar with about 14 oz. it holds well but it doesn't settle, just wabbles left to right.
> 
> Here is what I am prepping for some solutions. First I am going to focus on making sure my palm is relaxed it doesn't feel tense but I'll put emphasis on making sure it is relaxed and adding slight pressure to the front of the grip to get the bow to settle more quickly and stop the wobble. I have also just bought a shrewd 8* down angle QD and a new sidebar mount.


Your stabilizer weight doesn't seem right. Yeah, there is the promoted ratio of 1 to 3, but sure seems 1 to 2 is seen a lot. 
If by Griv's formula, a in the ball park formula;
As per a article separate from his Oh My article;

"length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"

Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.

You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.

You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X."

So your 28" front times 3 ounces = 84 / 14" back bar = 6 ounces on the back bar.

Target bows I have;
4.5 ounces on the 30" front / 6 ounces on the 10" back bar.
Another'
6 ounces on the 30" front / 12 ounces on the 12" back bar


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

One of the most counterintuitive aspects of getting a good sight picture is maintaining back tension with soft hands. 

When we pull with our arms, we naturally grip harder with our hands. You really have to learn how to relax your hands and arms and pull with your back muscles. 

It sounds easier than it is.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> Relax that bowhand!
> 
> I honestly think most people put too much emphasis on stabilizers and need to deal with the root causes before playing with moving weights. They're stabilizers...not magic.


Another +1 for Bob's comment. The bow should sit still with no wobbles, motions or wiggles with no stabs on it at all. So the first thing to do is take everything off the bow except the sight and start there.

I had a problem with a rapid side-to-side wiggle a while back that ultimately turned out to be too long of a draw length. Took me a while to finally debug that because the wiggle felt almost involuntary - even with fully conscious, deliberate relaxation of the small muscles everywhere as best I could, the bow wiggled back and forth at almost 10hz seemingly by itself. 

The key for me was I only saw it when running my BHFS 10" stab and _really_ saw it with no stabs at all. Ultimately, I discovered I was just too stretched out. Went down in DL and as I closed in on the correct length, the wiggle suddenly stopped completely even with nothing screwed into the bow.

So anyway, draw length might be something to look at to debug this. It may or may not be what the problem is for you, but something to troubleshoot at least.

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> Agree. Use to work at a archery shop where we held Indoor leagues. Watching shooters on the line I could pick out the better shots just by watching them. Stance, maybe not the greatest form, but repeated worked. Hands. Lord! Death like grips, fingers forced straight, too much thumb pressure. One young man, a teenager, was getting his forearm chewed to hamburger. Imagine having your hand turned to the just above the wrist laid on the strut of a Hoyt. Yep, he did. I instructed him, showed him and no longer got string slap. It didn't help. A few weeks later I heard he quit because he once again turning his forearm into hamburger.....
> 
> Stabilizers. Watched so many bow hunter rigs shoot outstandingly...My own hunting bow, it tips forward something awful and shoots just great. Told of it in a thread in this forum just recently. The bow, a 2009 Pearson TX4, will shoot a 5 spot 300 on command, 33 1/2" ata, 6 1/4" brace height and a 8" NAP Shock Blocker on the front and nothing on the back.


Yep. Was watching Cassidy Cox practice at our local shop not too long ago. What struck me was how "outside" the bow her alignment looked, the bow shoulder almost pointing away towards the right... But that's what a correct draw length actually looks like from the back... 

I recently went through a too-long-draw length, AKA trying to get into "good" alignment, period and now that I've shortened it up, I see why this alignment is common among the really elite shooters....

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

mhill said:


> Here is what I am prepping for some solutions. First I am going to focus on making sure my palm is relaxed it doesn't feel tense but I'll put emphasis on making sure it is relaxed and adding slight pressure to the front of the grip to get the bow to settle more quickly and stop the wobble. I have also just bought a shrewd 8* down angle QD and a new sidebar mount.


Monitor also the forearm muscles at the top in the bow arm - it can actually be hard to detect, but if these can't be relaxed completely, they'll be the culprits in a wiggle of the bowhand. Often, an attempt to flatten the hand can involuntarily cause you to try to pull the hand back with these muscles. Like I said, in my case I was just too stretched out from too long of a DL, which didn't allow the bow hand to sit naturally on the grip. In that position, I also naturally torque the handle slightly to the right which affects my paper tune a little bit. But I'm able to reproduce it the same way every time so it doesn't affect my grouping. 

Attempting to counter a natural (but slight) torquing tendency when fully relaxed can cause that forearm tension too and that'll induce the wiggle....

Try adjusting the DL (probably in the shorter direction) until trial-and-error those muscles don't activate....

lee.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

mhill said:


> I have better than average form, I won't say it perfect but it's fairly good. My draw length is measured and fits me well. I'm not leaning back, my bow weight feel comfortable, I run a 28" front bar 3oz 14" back bar with about 14 oz. it holds well but it doesn't settle, just wabbles left to right.
> 
> Here is what I am prepping for some solutions. First I am going to focus on making sure my palm is relaxed it doesn't feel tense but I'll put emphasis on making sure it is relaxed and adding slight pressure to the front of the grip to get the bow to settle more quickly and stop the wobble. I have also just bought a shrewd 8* down angle QD and a new sidebar mount.




Haven't read through all posts, so forgive me if this has been mentioned, but have you tried increasing holding weight? Do you get teh same movements when blank bale shooting?


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Haven't read through all posts, so forgive me if this has been mentioned, but have you tried increasing holding weight? Do you get teh same movements when blank bale shooting?


Yes I just do that, I moved my draw stops forward about 1/16 of an inch and it seemed to help a lot. Now I'm off to a new issue with some shot anticipation. Time to break it down and start some aiming drills.


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## mueller1212 (Jan 17, 2018)

I agree with the relaxed bow hand! I had problems with my arrow chattering off a blade rest on the draw and it turned out to be because my hand was so tight, its helped my shot by a ton!


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## bowshootn70 (Oct 15, 2017)

mhill said:


> Last week started indoor leagues for me, i shoot 5 spot and 3 spot vegas leagues. Both of my targets had a horrizontal group the yellow and white areas on the targets. My partner noticed that i am holding pretty well butt stabilizer wabbles left and right. I read griv's blog about stabilizers. But what do you think would help stop the wabble?


If you are shooting 65# for spots like your signature says , I would go down to 55-58# and see what happens. That's a lot of draw weight for spots. 55-59# is about average weight the pros are running. No need in pulling out the man card shooting paper at 20 yards. Something to try, and draw length as well.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, I hate fine print.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

cbrunson said:


> One of the most counterintuitive aspects of getting a good sight picture is maintaining back tension with soft hands.
> 
> When we pull with our arms, we naturally grip harder with our hands. You really have to learn how to relax your hands and arms and pull with your back muscles.
> 
> It sounds easier than it is.


To piggy back on that - another thing I've noticed recently is I thought I was relaxing my release hand, but I really wasn't because most of the tension I had was in my wrist. I learned how to 'let that go' and it was a big difference in how easy it was to stay relaxed and to let the hand yield into the shot.


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## mfisher1 (Feb 5, 2018)

certainly check hand pressure, but before I would add or remove stabilizer weight, I would look into just how much wabble you are experiencing as well as when during the shot sequence you are noticing the wabble. If it is during the aiming aspect, then adding weight in front, or removing weight from back will help. If the wabble is mostly noticeable during the execution of the shot, then the issue more than likely is commanding the shot


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## 2little2late (Dec 25, 2006)

Lee. When you say outside the bow is she left or right handed?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

2little2late said:


> Lee. When you say outside the bow is she left or right handed?


She shoots lefty. Her alignment reminded me of Sergio Pangni, who to me also looks "outside" the bow. That obviously does not mean looks out of alignment... .

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

lees said:


> She shoots lefty. Her alignment reminded me of Sergio Pangni, who to me also looks "outside" the bow. That obviously does not mean looks out of alignment... .
> 
> lee.


Only about two feet of difference between the two...but very similar. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ice67 (Jul 8, 2011)

watching


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## gavintanouye (Oct 9, 2017)

If it's not a form issue and indeed is a equipment issue, then take a look at these NEW Stabs from 365 Archery.... I didn't believe they would work until Chad from 365 Archery said to try them out at the Vegas Shoot. When I draw I have slight "wabble" from my front 27" stab with 6oz of weight. I have a relaxed bow hand, yet still have a "wabble" which leads to extra time to settle, aim and then shoot. The NEW Modify Stabs from 365 Archery took "the wabble" out of my shot process. My "wabble" could still be my bow hand or it could be the flex of the B-Stinger front bar that I run. Whatever the case, the 365 Archery Modify Stab seemed to work as they claim. Have a look... http://www.365archery.com/modify-stabilizers.html


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lord. Now magic stabilizers....

Bee Stinger 27" stab, whether Competitor or Premier, are pretty stiff. I'm using 8 ounces on my 30" Bee Stinger Competitor and there ain't no flex. Tim Gillingham noted if exceeding 10 ounces to go with the Premier - If I remember correctly.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Being able to tune your bars could be a pretty big deal. If it works, it could be huge.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

What we need are "smart" stabilizers...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> Being able to tune your bars could be a pretty big deal. If it works, it could be huge.


"If it works." Just to throw one on and it works? Adjusting cables to get stiffness and feel and working out whatever weights? And to say the Bee Stinger 27" may have been the problem? Some detail of setting up the 365 stab would have helped a bit.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

cbrunson said:


> One of the most counterintuitive aspects of getting a good sight picture is maintaining back tension with soft hands.
> 
> When we pull with our arms, we naturally grip harder with our hands. You really have to learn how to relax your hands and arms and pull with your back muscles.
> 
> It sounds easier than it is.


Pretty much words out of my mouth! The more tension and lack of relaxation in my release hand specifically the more of a crazy float. The more relaxed the better for your entire body.

Putting tension but staying relaxed is easier said than done!


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Gotta agree that the stabilizers aren't the problem here, no way b-stingers are not stiff enough as they probably good for 20 to 30oz at least on a 27". 

the 365 ones maybe good/stiff but the Doinker Fatty really settles my bow down fast, and I still think its unbeatable quality for price/stiffness/anti-shock.

don't know why I don't see more of them, maybe people think the larger diameter will significantly catch the wind more, IME this has proven to not be true.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

3 things I did to help my waggle.
First and foremost important, relax the bow hand and get a consistent grip.
Second, 10 degree down front AND I match the rear bar to that same angle down.
I use the lower mount hole on my bows.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> "If it works." Just to throw one on and it works? Adjusting cables to get stiffness and feel and working out whatever weights? And to say the Bee Stinger 27" may have been the problem? Some detail of setting up the 365 stab would have helped a bit.


There’s a difference between “It works” and it could be better. The “could be better” is only known if you pursue it.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> Only about two feet of difference between the two...but very similar.


Yep. The arrows just go into the X every time as if by magic regardless. During league, all the rest of us are struggling and running out of breath and cursing just trying to keep it in the gold (well us poorer shooters anyway), but she's over there just like a bug in a rug putting them in there every time. She has a new Mathews now and that thing is totally silent. 

But looking around at other really good shooters I notice on compound that kind of alignment appearance is really common. And from what I can see, quite different from recurve shooters who have a more "inside" look to their alignment. 

Just interesting to me, I guess. My draw length has shortened up about 1.5" in the last year and I'm finding my shoulder blade/bow arm alignment has drifted into a similar kind of arrangement. But sure enough it's far more comfortable and I can get into my back tension a lot better. The wiggle of the bow has stopped also....

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> What we need are "smart" stabilizers...


I say just get rid of the bow altogether. If they'd let me just walk to the target and stick it in the X by hand you know I'd do it in a heartbeat every time. They haven't let me yet, tho, but I'll keep asking.. .

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

lees said:


> ...But looking around at other really good shooters I notice on compound that kind of alignment appearance is really common. And from what I can see, quite different from recurve shooters who have a more "inside" look to their alignment...


That's been my beef with NTS. Practically no worldclass shooters shoot a compound like the "converted recurve" form depicted.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

dajogejr said:


> 3 things I did to help my waggle.
> First and foremost important, relax the bow hand and get a consistent grip.
> Second, 10 degree down front AND I match the rear bar to that same angle down.
> I use the lower mount hole on my bows.


agreed on the 10 degree down angle on front rod, it definitely settles the bow quicker. but for some reason my groups/hold are worse with one on, and it slowly creeps out of the QD slot if you have a shocky type target bow, um like I dunno a Hoyt or something


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

dajogejr said:


> 3 things I did to help my waggle.
> First and foremost important, relax the bow hand and get a consistent grip.
> Second, 10 degree down front AND I match the rear bar to that same angle down.
> I use the lower mount hole on my bows.


agreed on the 10 degree down angle on front rod, it definitely settles the bow quicker. but for some reason my groups/hold are worse with one on, and it slowly creeps out of the QD slot if you have a shocky type target bow, um like I dunno a Hoyt or something


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## gavintanouye (Oct 9, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> "If it works." Just to throw one on and it works? Adjusting cables to get stiffness and feel and working out whatever weights? And to say the Bee Stinger 27" may have been the problem? Some detail of setting up the 365 stab would have helped a bit.


The instructions that Chad gave me from 365 Archery about the Modify Stab was to take a few shots with a neutral setting on the cables that he set with a cable tightness scale that they use.... Then start to slowly tighten the cables a 1/4 turn each... take a few shots and repeat until the "wabble" goes away. I used the exact same weights I had on my B-Stingers with the the 365 Archery Modify Stabs. I only had to tighten the cables twice before I was able to eliminate the "wabble" from my shot process. 

Chad also explained that they are working on a mounting system that will set the cables in a set position. By doing this you can tighten one of the cables to torque the stabilizer. So lets say your torquing the bow to the left, you can tighten the right cable to torque the stabilizer to the right to compensate the left torquing from your hand or release or cam lean or whatever. I didn't try torquing the stabilizer at all, I really wanted to just get the "wabble" out of the shot. As a store shooter for the local 365 Archery dealer, I wanted to check out the the new products from 365 Archery and to see if the "magic" in the stabilizer was real science. It seemed to work as they advertise and we ordered a few to test out. Of course with all technology / equipment.....results may vary.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> That's been my beef with NTS. Practically no worldclass shooters shoot a compound like the "converted recurve" form depicted.


Watch women’s outdoors matches maybe. Sarah has NTS traits and Erika does also.

Just because some don’t see the perfect reflection of NTS in a compound shooter, doesn’t mean it’s not effective. Just like anything in archery, everyone individualizes a technique. So, just like scoring a close arrow, if u can’t find a reason it’s not, it probably closer to NTS than u judge.

It’s not for those that have physical weaknesses. But there is not a better way to achieve skeletal alignment and perfect draw side positioning with a few simple adjustments. The hard part is working back into a steady hold and regaining confidence in your process.

Like has been mentioned, soft hands and relaxing where needed makes for a steady hold no matter whose techniques u employ.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> That's been my beef with NTS. Practically no worldclass shooters shoot a compound like the "converted recurve" form depicted.


Well, as late as 20 years ago the pedagogy on compound form was it had to be recurve form and that was that &#55357;&#56842;. But nowadays when the compound is a first class citizen in archery and not just a stepchild of Olympic recurve, it’s got its own best practices etc. so folks are shooting it the way compounds should be shot and not how recurves should be shot.

I’d be very skeptical of compound NTS if it was still back in that Stone Age, but I don’t know enough about it to say. I hope it’s not being taught with recurve techniques? Some of it kind of crosses over but only some of it...

Lee


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

gavintanouye said:


> The instructions that Chad gave me from 365 Archery about the Modify Stab was to take a few shots with a neutral setting on the cables that he set with a cable tightness scale that they use.... Then start to slowly tighten the cables a 1/4 turn each... take a few shots and repeat until the "wabble" goes away. I used the exact same weights I had on my B-Stingers with the the 365 Archery Modify Stabs. I only had to tighten the cables twice before I was able to eliminate the "wabble" from my shot process.
> 
> Chad also explained that they are working on a mounting system that will set the cables in a set position. By doing this you can tighten one of the cables to torque the stabilizer. So lets say your torquing the bow to the left, you can tighten the right cable to torque the stabilizer to the right to compensate the left torquing from your hand or release or cam lean or whatever. I didn't try torquing the stabilizer at all, I really wanted to just get the "wabble" out of the shot. As a store shooter for the local 365 Archery dealer, I wanted to check out the the new products from 365 Archery and to see if the "magic" in the stabilizer was real science. It seemed to work as they advertise and we ordered a few to test out. Of course with all technology / equipment.....results may vary.


Much better detail....


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## Aleatorian (Nov 13, 2017)

*SWITCH said:


> agreed on the 10 degree down angle on front rod, it definitely settles the bow quicker. but for some reason my groups/hold are worse with one on, and it slowly creeps out of the QD slot if you have a shocky type target bow, um like I dunno a Hoyt or something


Depends on the QD, if it's top loaded, like the Easton one then you are asking for trouble. I don't have an issue with my Doinker Mighty Mount being side-loaded and 15oz on it stays put on my Prevail 37 SVX


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Aleatorian said:


> Depends on the QD, if it's top loaded, like the Easton one then you are asking for trouble. I don't have an issue with my Doinker Mighty Mount being side-loaded and 15oz on it stays put on my Prevail 37 SVX


And I don't have a problem with my top load Bee Stinger quick disconnect


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Aleatorian said:


> Depends on the QD, if it's top loaded, like the Easton one then you are asking for trouble. I don't have an issue with my Doinker Mighty Mount being side-loaded and 15oz on it stays put on my Prevail 37 SVX


And I don't have a problem with my top load Bee Stinger quick disconnect


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

“I’d be very skeptical of compound NTS if it was still back in that Stone Age, but I don’t know enough about it to say. I hope it’s not being taught with recurve techniques? Some of it kind of crosses over but only some of it...”

There are separate but similar approaches in the NTS for recurve and compound. 

Kisik Lee’s “BEST” is a foundation for both approaches. 

The approaches have the same number of steps in the shot process. But not all those steps contain the same sub-processes. 

Larry Wise is also a prime contributor to the NTS. So as you might expect — multiple aspects of his books on form and coaching archer are reflected in the NTS. 

I have no doubt that the approaches to archery are multiple and somebody has probably used one that everybody thought was terrible,and yet, managed to win anyway. 

Every time someone starts embracing one approach — folks immediately roll out examples of archers who did (or are doing) it in a different way and doing well. 

Kisik Lee’s motivation was to devise an approach that is biomechanically efficient and that would reduce injuries. 

Go figure. An approach that primarily uses bone structure to support the bow and large strong muscle groups to execute the draw. An aporoach that minimizes recruiting small muscle groups and wear and tear on soft tissue. An approach that acknowledges that adaptations have to be made for archers with varying limitations due to physical problems rather than demanding exacting compliance with a prescribed form. An approach that emphasizes mental discipline to concentrate on the right things at the right time. An approach that includes mental recovery techniques to make good decisions on mid-tournament corrections. An approach that emphasizes balance between archery and the rest of life pressures and events. 

If such an approach were developed by a recurve archer turned coach, could such an approach also be good for compound archers?

We all have our own opinions. But from my perspective — the NTS has value.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Shogun1 said:


> “I’d be very skeptical of compound NTS if it was still back in that Stone Age, but I don’t know enough about it to say. I hope it’s not being taught with recurve techniques? Some of it kind of crosses over but only some of it...”
> 
> There are separate but similar approaches in the NTS for recurve and compound.
> 
> ...


Goal reached, and I didn't say it had no value. We should now see a reduction in all these USA Archery compound target-archery induced injuries.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Shogun1 said:


> Go figure. An approach that primarily uses bone structure to support the bow and large strong muscle groups to execute the draw. An aporoach that minimizes recruiting small muscle groups and wear and tear on soft tissue. An approach that acknowledges that adaptations have to be made for archers with varying limitations due to physical problems rather than demanding exacting compliance with a prescribed form. An approach that emphasizes mental discipline to concentrate on the right things at the right time. An approach that includes mental recovery techniques to make good decisions on mid-tournament corrections. An approach that emphasizes balance between archery and the rest of life pressures and events.
> 
> If such an approach were developed by a recurve archer turned coach, could such an approach also be good for compound archers?


Sure, sounds great to me . But if that chosen approach were too rigid about promoting recurve techniques on the compound, however, I'd stand by my previously expressed skepticism. From what you describe, that may not be the case (or at least not anymore)? 

But again I'm only familiar in a cursory way with recurve NTS and not the compound version, so I couldn't really say. I might also dare to say that compound seems to be significantly more lenient about variations in form, techniques, etc. than the recurve is. Which stands to reason because the compound is just an easier bow to learn to shoot at first (but not master, of course, which is as difficult as any other bow type). So I think the approach to teaching it should probably be more accommodating too and not too rigid/dogmatic and whatnot.

Just my opinion which again isn't informed on compound NTS so is very likely to be wrong...

lee.


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