# Bow won't Paper Tune



## bbhunter47 (Apr 26, 2011)

In my opinion you should fix that nock high tear first. Then go after the horizontal. Depending on how your bow is assembled and where your D-loop is, your nocking point has to go down or your rest has to go up - those adjustments will fix your vertical tear. After you fix that then you can go after the left tear - I'd check/reset your centershot and see what you've got, if it's still left you can move your rest to the right (very very small adjustments!). Hope this helps!


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

bbhunter47 said:


> In my opinion you should fix that nock high tear first. Then go after the horizontal. Depending on how your bow is assembled and where your D-loop is, your nocking point has to go down or your rest has to go up - those adjustments will fix your vertical tear. After you fix that then you can go after the left tear - I'd check/reset your centershot and see what you've got, if it's still left you can move your rest to the right (very very small adjustments!). Hope this helps!


Unfortunately no amount of rest raising would cure the nock high tear.

The Beiter blade rest is very precise and I can easily raise the rest by 1/4 of a millimetres increments, but having done this until the rest was a good cm higher than the start point, I still had the same amount of nock high tear.

It is a similar story with the nock left tear. 

No amount of rest movement is getting this bow to fire bullet holes - or even close.

I think there is something more fundamentally wrong with the bow. Either I need to take it back to spec with the cables, or I need to shim the cams.

That said I'm new to archery so do tell me if I'm wrong.


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## HTJ1964 (Oct 19, 2020)

Leave the rest alone and move the D-loop.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

HTJ1964 said:


> Leave the rest alone and move the D-loop.


I installed the d-loop a couple of days ago, and I'm really happy with its position.

When nocked the arrow runs straight through the berger hole, and using both string and arrow levels the arrow is just a fraction nose down. Just how I wanted it.

If raising the rest made no difference, why would lowering a d-loop that's already nicely aligned help?

I know the shop played with the cables when I bought it. I know that fully wound up the draw weight is only #55, when is supposed to be #60.

I've wound it down to around #45 while I get used to shooting a fixed blade rest - and the ATA is measuring 5-6mm long.

This is why I think it needs to go back to spec before it will shoot bullet holes.

Either that or shim the cams.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Nick72 said:


> I installed the d-loop a couple of days ago, and I'm really happy with its position.
> 
> When nocked the arrow runs straight through the berger hole, and using both string and arrow levels the arrow is just a fraction nose down. Just how I wanted it.
> 
> ...


Shimming the cams won't fix your problem!!!! Shimming the cams will only fix left and right tears. The biggest problem you have is vertical. Every book, every video, and every tuner that I know will tell you to ALWAYS fix the vertical tear FIRST!

Here is a "Test" that you can do without a bow press... Put a whisker biscuit on the bow, set center shot and level nock travel. See if things clear up for you. If they clear up, your blade is probably too weak or the angle of your arrow is compressing the blade too much on the shot.

I should've said this first.... but papertuning is NOT for everyone!!!! You absolutely must have consistent and repeatable form from shot to shot, day to day in order to truly get something out of paper tuning. If you've only been shooting "off and on" for 6 months, I doubt you have the consistent form needed to paper tune. This is not a bash by any means.... I have seen quite a few shooters with 5-10 years experience who don't have consistent enough form to paper tune and you're trying to do it in 6 months... Not an easy thing to do.

I know most of the pros shoot a blade rest.... but they are pros. The arrow is in contact with that piece of spring steel the entire time during the shot... so any flaws in your follow through will show. These flaws will be compounded by the springy blade on your arrow rest. 

My advice.... take the blade off and get a drop away. There are a ton of them on the market and they work great.


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## HTJ1964 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nick72 said:


> I installed the d-loop a couple of days ago, and I'm really happy with its position.
> 
> When nocked the arrow runs straight through the berger hole, and using both string and arrow levels the arrow is just a fraction nose down. *Just how I wanted it.*
> 
> If raising the rest made no difference, why would lowering a d-loop that's already nicely aligned help?


Is not about "how you want it", or what is aesthetically pleasing but what the bow wants.

A "nose down" arrow giving nock high tears seems pretty cut and dried to me but.... bare shafting at 20 or 30 yards is likely a better answer.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> Shimming the cams won't fix your problem!!!! Shimming the cams will only fix left and right tears. The biggest problem you have is vertical. Every book, every video, and every tuner that I know will tell you to ALWAYS fix the vertical tear FIRST!
> 
> Here is a "Test" that you can do without a bow press... Put a whisker biscuit on the bow, set center shot and level nock travel. See if things clear up for you. If they clear up, your blade is probably too weak or the angle of your arrow is compressing the blade too much on the shot.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice,

I left paper tunning until I had 6 months experience, but you could be correct in suggesting I need more.

It's good to understand that shimming won't be the answer - actually I should have realised that wouldn't be the answer for a vertical tear.

No one is agreeing that the bow being out of spec could be a factor, so maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong.

I'll invest in a cheap Whisker Buscuit rest to see if I can get a bullet whole with one.

I really do love the blade rest, so don't think I'll be able to leave it off permanently, but let's see what result I have with the whisker buscuit.

I'll also redo the nocking points and d-loop to achieve a completely level arrow, as opposed to my very slight nose down.

Just a thought - my target is a little low. Also the gap in the ladder with the paper is a little low - so when shooting the paper tune shots I'm having to shoot at a slight downward angle (maybe -15 degrees).

Do you have to shoot at 90 degrees through paper to get a proper paper tune reading?


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## useyourbow (Jun 2, 2010)

In your first pic the one arrow fletching we can see is torn. May have some contact somewhere.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

HTJ1964 said:


> Is not about "how you want it", or what is aesthetically pleasing but what the bow wants.
> 
> A "nose down" arrow giving nock high tears seems pretty cut and dried to me but.... bare shafting at 20 or 30 yards is likely a better answer.


Granted I half expected and would have been happy with a very slight nock high tear.

I don't think my very slight nose down arrow would cause this massive tear, and I'm sure I moved the rest up more than enough to reverse the nose down to nose up - but I am new and could be wrong, so I will redo the nocking points and d-loop to take out the arrow nose down.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

useyourbow said:


> In your first pic the one arrow fletching we can see is torn. May have some contact somewhere.


The high tear took me by surprise and I ended up getting some contact with the ladder - which removed some fletches.

This then left me short on arrows, so I had to start using some with pre-existing fletch tears.

I spent some time this evening re-fletching my last five good arrows.


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## HTJ1964 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nick72 said:


> Granted I half expected and would have been happy with a very slight nock high tear.
> 
> I don't think my very slight nose down arrow would cause this massive tear, and I'm sure I moved the rest up more than enough to reverse the nose down to nose up - but I am new and could be wrong, so I will redo the nocking points and d-loop to take out the arrow nose down.


One of the ambitions with nock point/d loop adjustments is level nock travel - no amount of vertical adjustment to the arrow rest will help that.

I'll echo the whisker biscuit suggestion - simplify your life for now.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

HTJ1964 said:


> One of the ambitions with nock point/d loop adjustments is level nock travel - no amount of vertical adjustment to the arrow rest will help that.
> 
> I'll echo the whisker biscuit suggestion - simplify your life for now.


Sorry but I don't understand that.

Let's assume that my nocking points / d-loop are 3mm high.

The arrow still runs through the berger hole but at a very slight nose down angle.

Now I raise my blade rest by 3 or 4 mm. Am I not likely to raise the rest high enough to ensure the arrow is now running at 90 degrees to the string?

Is this not level nock travel, even if the arrow runs a couple of mm higher in the berger hole?


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Nick72 said:


> Thanks for the advice,
> 
> I left paper tunning until I had 6 months experience, but you could be correct in suggesting I need more.
> 
> ...


My responses in RED


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> My responses in RED


Lots of good points for me to digest there.

Thank you for taking the time.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

The nock high could be from the rest. Stiff blade rests will bounce the nock end of the arrow high. Without knowing the exact model I'll offer this. Try lowering the spring tension on the rest if that's available to you. If not, switch to a lighter blade. If that doesn't do it, drop the angle of the blade, mine are about 28-30 degrees give or take.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Update:

I reset the center shot for true center (I had previously moved the rest towards the riser to improve accuracy).

I dropped the nocking points and d-loop by around 4mm, which I believe gives me a perfectly horizontal arrow from nock through to berger hole.

I admit this seems like a better alignment.










Then I repeated the paper tune test from yesterday.

I got the exact same result, very nock high and a little nock left.

Again I tried raising the rest to eliminate the nock high, but every time I raised the rest by 1mm or 2mm only dramatically increased the nock high tear.

After three adjustments I no longer needed the paper the nock high was very obvious to the naked eye.

That’s me done with tuning for a while.

I figure either:

a) I’m not getting close enough to true center shot to tune.

b) My form isn’t good enough to paper tune

c) The bow is too far out of spec to tune

d) You have to shoot exactly 90 degrees to target to paper tune

e) Several of the above

In any case I’m making no progress and will be happier going back to shooting 18m rounds for score. That’s what’s given me most improvement so far.

I’ll come back to tuning at a later date.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

i find it very hard to believe the bow will not tune. depending on what is out of spec, that might be the reason you are having a hard time. you cannot expect a bow to be tunable, if it is out of spec. slight variations in ATA and brace height won't make a bow untunable in any respect. cam synch., widely uneven tiller, and center shot not within reason, will make a bow untunable. what specifically is.... "out of spec" ?. 9 times out of 10, severe tears like you posted, are shooter error. are you absolutely sure you aren't doing something to produce those big tears ?.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Nick72 said:


> Update:
> 
> I reset the center shot for true center (I had previously moved the rest towards the riser to improve accuracy).
> 
> ...


Did you read what I wrote to you already? It's your rest. The fact that your arrow is level through the berger hole when the bow isn't drawn, and you're shooting a blade rest, means that the blade is acting WAAAYYYYY too stiff. It should never be able to hold your arrow up like that. Moving the rest up makes the tear worse because the REST is causing the nock high. Move it up makes the nock end hit the rest harder and bounce even higher nock high coming off the bow. Fix the rest and you'll fix your problem. 

You don't want the arrow to be level at brace, you want it level at full draw. When I set up a blade rest, I use a very short arrow with no point in it to set my nock point. That way the weight of the arrow doesn't deflect the blade. I set the blade angle to 30deg and set the nock point/rest height to were it is very slightly nock low of what I actually want it to be at full draw with the actual arrow. That way when I have an actual arrow on it, the point weight will bend the blade slightly and I'll have the nock height I actually need. 

I never use a blade thicker than .008", even with my heavy indoor arrows. You can always make a weaker blade act stiffer but it's harder to make a stiff blade act weaker.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

merlinron said:


> i find it very hard to believe the bow will not tune. depending on what is out of spec, that might be the reason you are having a hard time. you cannot expect a bow to be tunable, if it is out of spec. slight variations in ATA and brace height won't make a bow untunable in any respect. cam synch., widely uneven tiller, and center shot not within reason, will make a bow untunable. what specifically is.... "out of spec" ?. 9 times out of 10, severe tears like you posted, are shooter error. are you absolutely sure you aren't doing something to produce those big tears ?.


I know the bow to be out of spec because it’s #60 bow but only goes to #55 fully wound down. I saw the bow shop technician take several twists out of the cables when I bought the bow.

That said the ATA is only out by a couple of millimetres, the tiller is good, the brace is to spec when wound down, and the cam timing seem fine.

I saw Brendon McDonald kneel down to get a 90 degree angle on his paper tune last night on YouTube, so I tried that this morning.











Same nock high and left tear from 10ft. The first with stabalizers the second without.










You can see the nock left in the second arrow, but neither display nock high by the time they hit target.

I went on to shoot 263 for 30 @ 18m WA (a good score for me) and the bow shot well when I did:

























I can’t say for sure I’m not causing the tear as I’m relatively new to the sport, but I trust my form and seem to get the same tears on consecutive days.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Huntinsker said:


> Did you read what I wrote to you already? It's your rest. The fact that your arrow is level through the berger hole when the bow isn't drawn, and you're shooting a blade rest, means that the blade is acting WAAAYYYYY too stiff. It should never be able to hold your arrow up like that. Moving the rest up makes the tear worse because the REST is causing the nock high. Move it up makes the nock end hit the rest harder and bounce even higher nock high coming off the bow. Fix the rest and you'll fix your problem.
> 
> You don't want the arrow to be level at brace, you want it level at full draw. When I set up a blade rest, I use a very short arrow with no point in it to set my nock point. That way the weight of the arrow doesn't deflect the blade. I set the blade angle to 30deg and set the nock point/rest height to were it is very slightly nock low of what I actually want it to be at full draw with the actual arrow. That way when I have an actual arrow on it, the point weight will bend the blade slightly and I'll have the nock height I actually need.
> 
> I never use a blade thicker than .008", even with my heavy indoor arrows. You can always make a weaker blade act stiffer but it's harder to make a stiff blade act weaker.


This is a very interesting read on the situation.

I did order a Whisker Biscuit so I should be able to get a bullet hole through that if your right. Online order so I'll get it mid week or soon after.

My bow is currently set to #45 Draw Weight with 75% let off.

My current arrow is 500 spine, 5.3mm outside diameter, 361Gr.

I'm currently using the 4mm (narrow) 0.25 (equal to 0.10) Beiter Blade.

It's set to 30 degree blade angle, and I'm using the 21mm support plates.

I might try going down to the 17mm support plates as this will soften the blade somewhat.

I’ve ordered some 4mm 0.20 (equal to 0.08) Beiter blades, but they will take approximately 3 weeks to arrive.

In the meantime it would be great to see a photo showing an arrow on your blade rest at brace, so that I can really picture what you mean.

If you have more than one arrow, the one closest to 361Gr would be most useful.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

if, as you say,..the cams are synch'd and the ATA is only a couple/few mm.long, that shouldn't produce a tear at all, much less a tear that you show. as for it only making 55lbs.,... if it is a few mm.long on ATA, it won't produce spec draw weight,...but again,... that by itself, will not produce a tear at all, much less one like you show. the tears do illustrate too stiff a blade, as Huntinsker suggests. i would look for severe fletching contact from the wrong blade width ( they are avalible in different deflections as well as different widths at the tips, for different arrow weights and diameters and they have to be relatively close to being correct for the arrow you are using), but your vanes don't look as though they show any contact. i would look at your limbs closely to see if one is damaged. have you checked tiller ?. i would make sure you have the same let-off modules on both cams. i don't see anywhere, what spine the shafts are. i would look closely at what you are maybe doing to produce that tear. did you ask the tech why he took some twists out of the cables ? your form is one thing that matters, but "form" is a static assessment and doesn't necessarily account for what you are doing with your release hand, when you release the arrow. beyond that,... i'm beginning to think you are pulling our legs about this.....


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

one thing i just noticed in post # 21 above, is that you say you are using 21mm.support plates,...i would say get rid of them,... they are making your blade too stiff for the spine of your arrows, too fast reacting for the weight of your arrows and the draw weight you are at.. setting up a blade rest can be complicated, can require a fairly long adjustment period to get everything just right and you need have some experience to know what you are doing to tune one. i'm not saying you can't learn this, or will never know how to,.. but it might be a bit too early in your archery knowledge timeline, to do it successfully. it's good that you came here to ask for help, we (those of us who know a little about blades rests), will certainly try to help you, but sometimes things have to be figured out as you are shooting, to get them to run right and with the amount of experience you have, i would suggest you use a less involved rest and get some more plain 'ole shooting experience under your belt. they aren't just throw it in your bow, make a few adjustments and away you go, like a drop away is. thier working correctly, extends into other components of your rig, not just the rest itself.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

merlinron said:


> if, as you say,..the cams are synch'd and the ATA is only a couple/few mm.long, that shouldn't produce a tear at all, much less a tear that you show. as for it only making 55lbs.,... if it is a few mm.long on ATA, it won't produce spec draw weight,...but again,... that by itself, will not produce a tear at all, much less one like you show. the tears do illustrate too stiff a blade, as Huntinsker suggests. i would look for severe fletching contact from the wrong blade width ( they are avalible in different deflections as well as different widths at the tips, for different arrow weights and diameters and they have to be relatively close to being correct for the arrow you are using), but your vanes don't look as though they show any contact. i would look at your limbs closely to see if one is damaged. have you checked tiller ?. i would make sure you have the same let-off modules on both cams. i don't see anywhere, what spine the shafts are. i would look closely at what you are maybe doing to produce that tear. did you ask the tech why he took some twists out of the cables ? your form is one thing that matters, but "form" is a static assessment and doesn't necessarily account for what you are doing with your release hand, when you release the arrow. beyond that,... i'm beginning to think you are pulling our legs about this.....


Thank you for your continued input - but why would I pull your leg about this?

I can assure you the issue I'm having is exactly as described in this thread.

I mentioned in my last post that the tillers match and the arrow spine is 500.

The limbs look fine.

I personally fitted the 75% let off mod on both cams, and I'm confident I did this correctly.

I'm annoyed the pro shop took twists out the day I bought the bow. They were trying to help me as I had cables in my sight view. This was of course 100% down to me being over bowed with no form (this is my first bow).

Why they didn't simply winned the bow down at the limb pockets I will never know.

My vanes ( AAE Plastifletch 2.0 Max) show no sign of contact, neither does the blade, except at the very tip of the point where it has become silver and shiny.

So yes at this point its starting to look like either :

A) Over stiff blade on rest 

Or

B) Poor form from the archer

Maybe it's my ego that won't let me beleive it's purely a form issue.

I'll try going down to the 17mm support plates on the 0.25 blades.

I'll try the Whisker Biscuit.

Then I'll try the 0.20 blades.

And then we will see where I am.


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## Jimdude (Aug 20, 2020)

I’m not an experienced tuner either. That said, I would get a cheep nock-off whisker biscuit off eBay or Amazon for probably less than $30. Then you can at least figure out if the problem is the rest. If you still have bad tares it’s either you or the bow. I’m also wondering if a 400 spine arrow might fly better. Maybe pick up a loose one next time you’re at Walmart for $4. Have you seen the Easton Tuning Guide? It is very helpful for beginners.


https://eastonarchery.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/TuningGuideEaston.pdf


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Jimdude said:


> I’m not an experienced tuner either. That said, I would get a cheep nock-off whisker biscuit off eBay or Amazon for probably less than $30. Then you can at least figure out if the problem is the rest. If you still have bad tares it’s either you or the bow. I’m also wondering if a 400 spine arrow might fly better. Maybe pick up a loose one next time you’re at Walmart for $4. Have you seen the Easton Tuning Guide? It is very helpful for beginners.
> 
> 
> https://eastonarchery.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/TuningGuideEaston.pdf


Hi Jim Dude

I mentioned above that I've ordered a Whisker Biscuit, just waiting for it to arrive.

My bow is currently set to #45 Draw Weight, so my 500 spine arrow is more likely to be over spined, but I think I'm within tolerance.

We don't have Walmart in Malaysia and my local Pro shops tend to only sell arrows by the dozen.

We can get some of the budget arrows and some of the most expensive, but we generally get far less range / choice than you might expect to in the US.

A new set of arrows will cost me anything from $100 USD to $800 USD depending on brand and model.

My current arrows are Accura X One Prime Carbon, which I find to be very good for a budget arrow, and a dozen cost around $138 USD.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Update:

The Beiter blade rest comes with 3 sets of support plates (2x17mm, 2x22mm and 2x26mm)

I took the Beiter blade out, and noticed that I was already using the 22mm support plate in the top.

I'm guessing the top plate is for rebound, but don't quote me on that.

I was already using the 17mm for the bottom plate. 17mm is the smallest so offers the least support, and therefore if I'm worried I have an over stiff blade I'm best sticking with the 17mm on the bottom.

As far as I can tell you need to run the Beiter blade rest with both an upper and lower support plate. There is no option for removing the plates completely.

Interestingly on very close inspection the upper support (22mm) was showing scrape marks from arrow contact. Looking very closely I can see it's been worn down by about 0.25mm at the end closest to the blade tip.

It looks like arrow shaft contact and is worn in a parabolo indent of the arrow shaft.

For me this is further confirmation that @Huntinsker is correct.

Unsure how to proceed I put in a new #4,0.25 blade, with 17mm (as the weakest) lower plate, and 26mm upper plate - hoping the larger plate will reduce rebound into the arrows path.

In reality I think I've achieved very little. I need to fit the weaker #4,0.20 blade when I can get one.

I'll still try the Whisker Biscuit as well next week.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Nick72 said:


> Update:
> 
> The Beiter blade rest comes with 3 sets of support plates (2x17mm, 2x22mm and 2x26mm)
> 
> ...


You'll have the same problem with a whisker biscuit rest. They're well known for causing persistent nock high problems because the whiskers act the same as an overly stiff blade rest. 

I'm not sure why Beiter didn't make the blade angle infinitely adjustable on that rest. It's so simple do do and it allows for much finer tuning. It's also, IMO, dumb to require the use of a backer blade. I've never used one and never for a moment thought I needed one. 

For you at this point, make sure you have the blade angle set to 30 degrees. Make sure you have the longest, thinnest blade available to you, so it acts as weak as possible and if you can figure out how to eliminate the backer blade deal, do that too. If it were me, I'd try to put both of the "guidance plates" above the actual blade or I'd cut the bottom "guidance blade" down so it doesn't make the blade act stiffer. You might also set the nock angle slightly nock high to try and prevent the nock end from hitting the rest so hard. Probably going to have to adjust vertical nock travel by adjusting the cam timing too.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Huntinsker said:


> You'll have the same problem with a whisker biscuit rest. They're well known for causing persistent nock high problems because the whiskers act the same as an overly stiff blade rest.
> 
> I'm not sure why Beiter didn't make the blade angle infinitely adjustable on that rest. It's so simple do do and it allows for much finer tuning. It's also, IMO, dumb to require the use of a backer blade. I've never used one and never for a moment thought I needed one.
> 
> For you at this point, make sure you have the blade angle set to 30 degrees. Make sure you have the longest, thinnest blade available to you, so it acts as weak as possible and if you can figure out how to eliminate the backer blade deal, do that too. If it were me, I'd try to put both of the "guidance plates" above the actual blade or I'd cut the bottom "guidance blade" down so it doesn't make the blade act stiffer. You might also set the nock angle slightly nock high to try and prevent the nock end from hitting the rest so hard. Probably going to have to adjust vertical nock travel by adjusting the cam timing too.


Thank you @Huntinsker - I understand your advice except for the bit about adjusting vertical nock travel.

How does one adjust vertical nock travel and why?

Your idea to put both support plates in the upper position above the blade may work, but I'm guessing I'll need the 0.20 blade.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Nick72 said:


> Thank you @Huntinsker - I understand your advice except for the bit about adjusting vertical nock travel.
> 
> How does one adjust vertical nock travel and why?
> 
> Your idea to put both support plates in the upper position above the blade may work, but I'm guessing I'll need the 0.20 blade.


Vertical nock travel is controlled by the cam timing and sync. To change it requires twisting or untwisting the cables to manipulate the starting position, timing, of the cams. If your bow has a lot of downward nock travel when you let loose the string, you can adjust your rest all you want but the nock will still be forced down into the rest and will bounce high. Rule out the rest issues and then if the problem persists, you have to assume nock travel as the culprit.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Update:

The 22mm upper support plate started to scuff badly after two arrows.

I took @Huntinsker 's advice and put the two 17mm plates above the blade.










60 arrows later and no sign of scuffing on the shorter plates or the blade.

Back to paper tuning and some improvement:










It's not a bullet hole, but it's much closer.

I tried a bareshaft at 18m:










Still some way to go as well, but at least it's in the same target, which again is an improvement.

I'm really hoping the #4,0.20 blade will do the trick when it arrives.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Good work. You're getting there


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Some background: I've been shooting for 6 months, but it's been broken up by Covid lockdowns.
> 
> I've got a PSE Drive 3B with the 75% Let-off Mods.
> 
> ...


The bow, with a top of the line BLADE rest will NOT paper tune,
cuz you don't have a bow press
and you don't know how to tune a blade rest. It's not the bow. It's you....

blade rests will ALWAYS have a BAD nock high tear, if you have no idea how to tune a blade rest.



This bow, setup like this, with a blade rest...did THIS nock high paper tear.





So, you don't go on the internet, with no bow press, and then say the bow "WON't" paper tune. You find someone with a bow press, and you admit you have NO idea how to tune a blade rest, admit that you don't know how to fix a nock high blade rest paper tear.

Then, when you want to learn how to tune a BLADE rest, you can learn how to kill the nock high paper tear, when using a blade rest.

So, the fella with THIS bow...



he reached out for help. The blade rest angle was no good, and the blade thickness was wrong. So, after he learned how to REALLY tune a blade rest, he fired 21 shots, in the same hole at 20 yards.



He fired one arrow, 21 times. So yes, he walked back and forth to the target, fired the arrow.
Set down his bow. Walked to the target. Pulled out the one arrow. Returned to the shooting line. Fired that ONE arrow again. Back and forth. 21 times. ALL shots in the same hole.
Why do all that walking back and forth? Cuz, it's harder this way. Provides a REAL test for how the NEW blade tuning is working.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Update:
> 
> The 22mm upper support plate started to scuff badly after two arrows.
> 
> ...


1) use the 0.20 mm blade will help tremendously.
2) set blade angle to 30 degrees, will also help tremendously.

You want the bareshaft and the fletched to touch at 18 meters, and be parallel.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> The bow, with a top of the line BLADE rest will NOT paper tune,
> cuz you don't have a bow press
> and you don't know how to tune a blade rest. It's not the bow. It's you....
> 
> ...



I'm fully willing to admit I don't know much about tuning bows.

I know nothing about blade rests except I've fitted a couple and not had much luck.

I'm probably not a very good archer, and I have only 6 months experience.

I'm on this forum because I have had nothing but bad experiences with Pro Shops and want to learn to be self sufficient. To be honest I prefer it that way regardless of the service available.

You say I will not succeed without a bow press. Okay - I've now bought the LCA EZ Press Manual, Excella Archery (Malaysia) keep them in stock, so I should have it within a couple of days.

I'll keep on posting on here, and I would appreciate any advice given.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) use the 0.20 mm blade will help tremendously.
> 2) set blade angle to 30 degrees, will also help tremendously.
> 
> You want the bareshaft and the fletched to touch at 18 meters, and be parallel.


The blade angle is set to 30 degrees.

I'm stuck with the #4,025 blade for now, but I've ordered some #4,020 blades, although it may be a few weeks before they arrive in Malaysia.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> The blade angle is set to 30 degrees.
> 
> I'm stuck with the #4,025 blade for now, but I've ordered some #4,020 blades, although it may be a few weeks before they arrive in Malaysia.


The thinner blade is more forgiving....meaning that the window for the sweet spot for the blade rest
is a larger window for vertical adjustment.

If the blade rest is adjusted for elevation (height) outside of this sweet spot window,
the bareshafts go nock high...cuz if the blade rest is too high, the blade REBOUNDS HARDER and smacks the back end of the bareshaft and you get a nock high. Blade is a shock absorber.

So, if you go the other way, and the elevation (height) is outside the sweet spot window,
the bareshafts also impact nock high, cuz if the blade rest is too low, the bareshaft dives down, since a bareshaft has no steering correction.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> The blade angle is set to 30 degrees.
> 
> I'm stuck with the #4,025 blade for now, but I've ordered some #4,020 blades, although it may be a few weeks before they arrive in Malaysia.


So, when you go stiffer (thicker) on the blade, the rebound reaction hits the back end of the bareshaft HARDER.
So, to soften the rebound reaction, you lower the blade rest several thousandths of an inch, like 0,002-inches,
like 0,004 inches...or to soften a blade rebound reaction, move the blade rest in the down direction 0,050 mm,
like 0,100 mm...down from the level nock travel position.

How do you find the level nock travel height, for a blade rest?
Well, you turn the bow sideways, so gravity is your friend. Support your bow on a table, any flat surface.
Then, bottom out your blade rest.





Support the arrow parallel to the table top. Use corner of a sheet of paper to swing the arrow 90 degrees to the string.
Then, with blade rest bottomed out...your rest will look like this.



Micro adjust the blade rest until the blade touches the arrow, with ZERO bending on the blade.





This becomes the maximum height for your blade rest. All future tuning is in the DOWN direction,
moving 0,050 mm per adjustment. This is when you use the 0,20mm blade.

If you use the 0,25 mm blade, then, the tuning adjustment for elevation becomes even finer.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Reading through these last couple replies is like deja vu but with a tinge of belittlement sprinkled on top.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

N&B, how do you suggest we move the blade down "5 hundredths" of an inch and keep track of it ?.


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## rbnhood66 (Jan 14, 2014)

bbhunter47 said:


> In my opinion you should fix that nock high tear first. Then go after the horizontal. Depending on how your bow is assembled and where your D-loop is, your nocking point has to go down or your rest has to go up - those adjustments will fix your vertical tear. After you fix that then you can go after the left tear - I'd check/reset your centershot and see what you've got, if it's still left you can move your rest to the right (very very small adjustments!). Hope this helps!


As bad as that nock tear is the DLoop and the Rest may need to be adjusted.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

merlinron said:


> N&B, how do you suggest we move the blade down "5 hundredths" of an inch and keep track of it ?.


I'm not who you're asking of course but the OPs rest is a Beiter blade rest. They only have one model for a compound bow and it has micro adjustments for vertical and windage that are adjustable by 0.2mm (0.00787") per click. That's how you move such small amounts and keep track of it.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

OK,,..... i've never seen a beiter and never even searched them because no-one around me sells them, or uses them. i've always thought it was crazy that allot of the accessories we use, don't have micro adjustability. i understand the price vs.cost to manufacture aspect, but sometimes having that "luxury" is simply a necessity and the same item without it, makes it almost unusable.. can you imagine something like a target sight without micro adjustability ?.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

merlinron said:


> OK,,..... i've never seen a beiter and never even searched them because no-one around me sells them, or uses them. i've always thought it was crazy that allot of the accessories we use, don't have micro adjustability. i understand the price vs.cost to manufacture aspect, but sometimes having that "luxury" is simply a necessity and the same item without it, makes it almost unusable.. can you imagine something like a target sight without micro adjustability ?.


If you want to get very precise without a micro adjustable rest, use a set of calipers. Just squeeze the calipers to a stationary support on the rest and the moveable component and then adjust the calipers how ever far you want to move the rest and then lock it down. Then adjust the rest until it's again hitting both sides of the calipers. You can use the calipers like a stop on a lathe or milling machine if you don't have DRO.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

I've got a little experience with precision measurement,...have to admit,...never thought of doing that for rest adjustment !. as a highschool teenager and a few years afterwards, i ran a crankshaft grinder and a Sunnen Hone, at an automotive machine shop in Milwaukee and a little later in life, built SCCA race motors for a guy that ran E production MGB's (google "Killer B's Race Team") there's a pic of me and the driver taking a victory lap in one of his cars at Black Hawk Farms in South Beloit, Ill.. i also built all of my son's "Briggs 5 horse" motors (they made about 13 HP @ 9000 rpm. , on alcohol) for his kart racing, when he was a teenager. i still have a Sterrett Basic Dial Set, 1, 2 and 3 inch Mics. Depth Mic., Inside Mic., Snap gauges, a few dials and a couple Mag Bases and a dial caliper in my toolbox, but i sold allot of my precision stuff when i retired....just kept the basics. did allot of precision optical alignment and leveling, working on paper machines during my career as a Union Carpenter/Millwright, as well.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

I found it easiest to remove the sight first:









Then following @nuts&bolts instructions I tried to square everything up.



















This indicated that my centre shot needed to come left, and through the berger hole required the rest to be raised by around 1mm.

Whether eyeballing the rest, using levels on the string and arrow with the riser in a vice, or now laying the riser flat and trying to square everything with levels and set squares, it all comes back to the tolerance.

A tolerance of 2mm would be fairly straightforward, but with the latest advice to get the tolerance down to 0.05mm or less; well it's just tricky.

I'll try and get out to shoot later or tomorrow at the latest. Let's see how this new setting does, and whether a few micro turns can get it into alignment.

(Still baring in mind that this might not work until I have the #4,0.20 blade)


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Well that was quick


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## Friedfifo (Dec 29, 2019)

Blade rests make tears like that lower it till it starts tearing in the other direction and work back from there. Or raise your d loop.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> I found it easiest to remove the sight first:
> View attachment 7354820
> 
> 
> ...


Computer printer paper is 0.003 inches thick = 0,076 mm. So, if your blade is not a micro adjust (highly recommend a CLICK micro adjust blade rest)...then, here is a low tech way to adjust the blade in the DOWN direction, 0,076 mm at a time.





Scotch tape and a piece of paper. Cut the paper along the horizontal seam, and draw a vertical pen line. The vertical pen line marks your current horizontal blade rest position. Now you can easily SEE when you bump the arrow rest ONE pen line width to the right, or ONE pen line width to the left.

So, on the right side of your blade rest, find the vertical seam. You can scotch tape a piece of paper horizontally
and slice the paper along the vertical seam. 

I THINK you have a Beiter blade rest, so you have a vernier scale, and should be able to resolve 0,05mm EASILY.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> I found it easiest to remove the sight first:
> 
> Then following @nuts&bolts instructions I tried to square everything up.
> 
> ...


Beiter Blade Rest Vernier Scale instructions. The vernier scale allows you to resolve down to 0,1mm EASILY...that translates to 0,004 inches for each line on the VERNIER scale.



http://www.wernerbeiter.com/en/information-downloads/operation_guides/Compound-Rest_GB_0612.pdf












Now if you put scotch tape over the UPPER scale, and hand draw in the lines for the ODD hash marks,
you can draw in lines for 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 on the upper scale with a fine tip sharpie pen, and now you have 
VERNIER scale resolution down to 0,05 mm = 0,002 inches.

When I use the bow sideways procedure on my own bow, and using the 0.008 inch thickness blade, and set blade angle at 30 degrees,
and set MAX blade height for the arrow at 90 degrees to the string (use a corner of a sheet of paper for a 90 degree reference)...
the blade will SAG, which is a GOOD thing.









SAG is not a problem, SAG is a GOOD thing, because this is an indicator that the BLADE rebound reaction will be very very gentle, or ZERO REBOUND.
ZERO rebound means no nock high, no nock low, with a blade rest.

So, with the blade rest elevation set at MAX height, with bow sideways on a table top,
then, we tune the blade rest in the DOWN direction, going 0,05 mm per adjustment. Took me only TWO clicks on my click micro adjust blade rest,
so I moved the blade rest DOWN only 0,10 mm to get THIS result.



So, what happens if I move the blade rest DOWN say 0,20mm or 0,40 mm? Now you are outside the sweet spot for blade rest elevation,
the blade is too low, and you will get THIS result. Bareshaft hits LOW, cuz the bareshaft is planing DOWNHILL.



Bareshaft impacts BELOW the fletched group.
BUT, why is his NOCK over 300mm NOCK HIGH?

Cuz, the blade angle was too steep, and the blade thickness was at maximum thickness, cuz the shooter selected blade thickness for total arrow weight,
which is completely incorrect.



RESULTS based tuning. Find the blade angle, the blade thickness and the blade rest elevation that allows you to do THIS at 18 meters.



21 shots with ONE arrow at 20 yards (about 18 meters). Yes, you walk back and forth to the target, pull out the ONE arrow and fire again.
WHY so much walking? Because this is a TOUGHER test, and shows you your TRUE accuracy, when tuning the bow.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

I had another go at paper tuning this afternoon.

This time I found center shot quite quickly and got rid of the nock left tear fairly easily.

Interestingly the Center Shot on a PSE Drive 3B is far over to the right.

If you consider 7/8 inch is around 22.2mm, 13/16 inch is around 20.6mm, then I ended up around 16mm from the riser - way inside the line placed on the riser by PSE.

I’ll go back tomorrow and measure the exact distance.










While the left tear was easily fixed the nock high tear was more persistent, and I haven’t been able to get rid of it yet.

Then as it was getting dark and I was out of fletched arrows, I sent a bare shaft down range from 10ft, and got this:










Very close to a bullet hole.

I’ll try to get back to it over the next couple of days.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

@Nick72, centershot is a measurement so it will have a certain value. Typically companies give a range like 3/4-13/16". Some wide shelf bows might be at 7/8" but they're aren't a lot of them. What you found is where the rest position tunes out the nock right. You're very near 5/8" which is pretty far inside. I give myself 1/16" either way of the actual centershot position and if that little adjustment can clear up what's going on, I do something else to help it along. 

The fact that your bareshaft seems to shoot a cleaner hole than your fletched isn't surprising when working with a blade rest. The fletchings are no doubt hitting the rest so there's simply more/harder contact with the rest with the fletched arrow compared to the bare shaft. You're currently using a pretty wide blade so there's more chance for fletching contact.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Huntinsker said:


> @Nick72, centershot is a measurement so it will have a certain value. Typically companies give a range like 3/4-13/16". Some wide shelf bows might be at 7/8" but they're aren't a lot of them. What you found is where the rest position tunes out the nock right. You're very near 5/8" which is pretty far inside. I give myself 1/16" either way of the actual centershot position and if that little adjustment can clear up what's going on, I do something else to help it along.
> 
> The fact that your bareshaft seems to shoot a cleaner hole than your fletched isn't surprising when working with a blade rest. The fletchings are no doubt hitting the rest so there's simply more/harder contact with the rest with the fletched arrow compared to the bare shaft. You're currently using a pretty wide blade so there's more chance for fletching contact.


@Huntinsker - Thank you for your advice.

I'm pretty confident that my rest is now lined up with the bow string nocking point for "center shot", and that measurement is 16.85mm from the riser.

There is no way the center shot of this bow is the line drawn in the riser by PSE.

I don't know if PSE have ever published an official center shot figure for the 2019 PSE Drive 3B, but I can't find one anywhere.

Is there a reason to doubt 16.85mm as the correct and official center shot?

You say that you give yourself 1/16" of the actual center shot position - but what is the actual center shot position for this bow?

Am I missing something here? Is 16.85mm unrealistic for some reason? 

Are you saying that 16.85mm is only working because the cam is out of position and needs shimming?

Although I can no longer see signs of arrow contact with the rest / blade since moving over to both 17mm support plates in the upper position, I accept that you're probably correct when you suspect fletching contact with the blade.

One point though, I'm using the #4 blade, which is the narrowest blade available.

As previously stated it's the 0.25 (equal to 0.10 thickness) and almost certainly too stiff - but it is not wide.

In addition I'm running a 3x AAE Plastifletch 2.0 Max fletch configuration - I thought these were pretty minimal fletching in terms of size.

FYI - The arrow had a 5.5mm O.D and is 28" long.

I appreciate your continued input.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

PSE's sight window geometry has been pretty consistent over the years and center shot should measure 13/16". A simple way to check is to lay an arrow on the inside of the sight window and see if it's parallel to your arrow nocked on the string/rest. You can also measure from the inside edge of the sight window, down where the rest mounts as some have a little "jog" back in where the sight mount holes are, and measure to the center of the grip. That's the center of the bow and that measurement will be the center shot measurement. 

Now that I think of it, the difference in what you're measuring to the known center shot measurement could simply be where the sight window "jogs" back out towards the arrow. That's roughly 1/8" so it would make sense. 

It may have been the zoom of the photo that made me think your blade was wide. 1/4" is pretty standard for a narrow blade so you won't find much narrower unless you want to get creative with a Dremel tool.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

OK @Huntinsker - here are some measurements:

I have found centershot (where the rest lines up with the nocked arrow) to be 16.85mm.



















This also seems to line up well with an arrow pressed into the Grove line above the berger hole (so arrow along the riser).










The PSE Grove on the riser tray is 19.65mm and dead in centre of the grip - but too me this doesn't come close to shooting correctly.




























So I need your advice.

I clearly can't use the PSE centershot (19.65mm) as I will get a huge nock left tear through paper.

Are you saying I should not use the measured rest through nocked arrow of 16.85mm?

In which case what options are left? The Drive 3B doesn't have yokes, so do I need to shim?

What would you do in my position?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

If you're measuring from the deep part of the sight window, not where it comes back out towards the arrow, and you're getting 16.85mm to the center of the arrow shaft, and that's what's running parallel with the other arrow, then that's where you should start. I still wonder if there's not a disconnect with where you're measuring from or maybe to (measuring to the inside edge of the shaft instead of the middle maybe?) but the end result is what matters. If this measurement leads to fletching contact or some other problem, then you might need to change it and then adjust with the cable rod or even cam shims if it comes to that. 

I like to have things down the middle as much as possible so if it were me, I'd center the rest on the center of the grip and then try to tune that nock left out with other components on the bow. I'd start with the cable rod and swing it in towards the arrow and see how the nock left reacts. If that's not enough to fix it entirely, I'd be looking at cam shims and move the cams left. I wouldn't get too excited about it though until I figured out this nock high tear or I'd at least put lipstick on the leading edges of my vanes and see how much fletching contact I'm getting. Tuning a bow that has a lot of fletching contact can be a worthless endeavor since an arrow with fletching contact doesn't always act predictably.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Huntinsker said:


> If you're measuring from the deep part of the sight window, not where it comes back out towards the arrow, and you're getting 16.85mm to the center of the arrow shaft, and that's what's running parallel with the other arrow, then that's where you should start. I still wonder if there's not a disconnect with where you're measuring from or maybe to (measuring to the inside edge of the shaft instead of the middle maybe?) but the end result is what matters. If this measurement leads to fletching contact or some other problem, then you might need to change it and then adjust with the cable rod or even cam shims if it comes to that.
> 
> I like to have things down the middle as much as possible so if it were me, I'd center the rest on the center of the grip and then try to tune that nock left out with other components on the bow. I'd start with the cable rod and swing it in towards the arrow and see how the nock left reacts. If that's not enough to fix it entirely, I'd be looking at cam shims and move the cams left. I wouldn't get too excited about it though until I figured out this nock high tear or I'd at least put lipstick on the leading edges of my vanes and see how much fletching contact I'm getting. Tuning a bow that has a lot of fletching contact can be a worthless endeavor since an arrow with fletching contact doesn't always act predictably.


Thank you @Huntinsker

My measurements are good, having been made with vernier calipers.

I took the reading from just behind (string side) of the berger hole to the middle of the V in the arrow rest blade.

As you can see from the photos there is no recess in this part of the riser.



















So I believe I'm measuring the correct point a to b.

I do hear you though on the persistent nock high tear, and your general misgivings about finding centershot so close to the riser (so far from center grip).

I think I'll leave everything alone and just enjoy shooting a few rounds for the next week, or however long my #4,0.20 Beiter blades take to arrive.

I'll retest again with the new blades, and I'll try moving the cable guard arm towards the arrow if I'm no closer to center grip.

I might think about putting the bow back to spec over the next few days as well.

I should really have done this before I started tunning.


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