# Bareshaft tuning. Bow with no yokes. (Nuts&Bolts please help)



## Bulldogjohn (Jun 9, 2012)

When you lean back your draw length is too long then. I think 28 maybe a better DL choice for you as you said you feel comfortable and the photo shows your bow arm a bit too straight. Also you don't use a D loop to adjust your DL. keep it short. Shooting left could be a incorrect spine. And when you adjust your bow weight up and down it moves the knock point so everytime you play with the weight you must go paper tune your bow again. without watching you shoot their is no way to help analize your form. eg. punching the trigger. What is your pin doing? if it makes wide slow floating movement across bullseye,your draw length is too long. if it is holding fairly still but jumps around with quick jerky movements your draw lenght is to short. Hope this helps


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Hey Bulldogjohn,

Yes,that is why I shorten my DL. I was leaning back.

Per Nuts&Bolts method,if I want to have BS hitting with FP and have NO YOKES,than only thing to do is to dial my DL perfectly.
Problem is,that with longer DL (29") I am leaning back and hitting BS way to the right of FP. (sideway pull on the string)
With shorter DL (28") I am feeling much more comfortable and I think standing much straighter,but BS hitting to the left of FP.

Per Nuts&Bolts the total DL is made by lets call it front part of DL (bow DL) and back part of DL (D-Loop).
I feel that 28" or 28,5" is much more comfortable and form looks also better. But BS to the left of the FP.
This should be caused by incorrect release arm elbow alignment with the arrow. 
So if I feel that front part of DL is okay,than I should work on back part of DL (D-Loop) to align my elbow with arrow. In this case I should lenghten the D-Loop.

Or is it not like this? 

I think spine is not the issue. 
Pin is little bit jerky but than calms down when I push to the wall more.


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

Try rotating you release hand palm down so the thumb release is at a 90 degree to the string, you may be pulling the release around your jaw line. 

GRIM


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Found it. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457&page=13

Start at post #361 and go down.


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Well, I think I got it. I was little bit frustrated last days but I think I have it.

I tried bow DL at 28 inch, 28.5 inch, 29 inch and 29.5 inch.
I tried different D-Loop lenghts from 9 centimeters to 13 centimeters.
I tried to modify my form by changing stance and to rotate my release palm more down.

I tried too many combos. But my bare shafts still hitting way to the left of field points.
I even tried 29.5 inch DL and 13 centimeters D-Loop just to hit BS to the right of FP. I felt totally uncomfortable,leaning back,elbow below wrist etc. But still hitting BS to the left of FP.

I was frustrated because with fletched arrows I scored 345/360 at 30 meters FITA and 333/360 at 50 meters FITA. Nice groups,felt okay. Than came to 20 yards for some BS and bang- way to the left.

Than I started to think about cam lean. I have no yokes,so cam lean is pretty much fixed for me and I cant tune it,right?
So bow at static,no full draw, I took arrow and put it against left side of top cam and at half way of the string the arrow already crossed the string and whole tip was on the right side.
Than I put arrow against right side and at half way there was big gap between tip and bowstring.
I checked also bottom cam. Was much much better leaning only slightly to the same side.

And this was at static. I believe there will be bigger lean at full draw.

So bottom line for my thoughts:
I have a quite big cam lean (top cam leaning to the left) but my bow doesnt allow to adjust it because cam lean on this kind of cam system is fixed.
And that is causing my BS to hit to the left of FP. No matter what change I do regarding bow DL and D-Loop length.

Now I need someone to confirm my theory. Or to explain if it is something else :angel:
Thanks a lot !!!


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I know that some people have had luck with shimming the cams-- never had to do this but I hear that it works.

Other than the cam lean, it sounds like your shooting stiff arrows...add 25grns to the tip and see what happens


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

PUT AN ARROW in that damn bow when drawing........lol or your next post is gonna be "OMG i just accidently dry fired my bow.....how do i fix it?"


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Fury90flier said:


> I know that some people have had luck with shimming the cams-- never had to do this but I hear that it works.
> 
> Other than the cam lean, it sounds like your shooting stiff arrows...add 25grns to the tip and see what happens


I read something about shimming here on AT,but I dont have time and nerves to do it. And I have new target bow on order,so this one will be only for occasional hunting.

I use OnTarget2 to match bow and arrow spine. And it is spot on. Spine is not issue.

At one point couple of months ago I was hitting BS to the right of FP. But I knew I had long DL a pulling sideways on the string. 
Than with shorter DL and shorter D-Loop I started to hit to the left. And later when I changed again for longer DL and D-Loop to confirm my DL setting I was still hitting left. I couldnt hit to the right. For me only logical reason is,that top cam had to start lean somehow. Can this happen? That cam over time started to lean?


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Or maybe it is some problem with top limb ...


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I had said add 25grn...should have said subtract--being that they're impacing left. Doesn't matter what the software says, it's what the results are that determine what we do. That said, it very well could be cam lean or shooter induced issues....one of the reasons I hate BS tuning---tells me everything I'm doing wrong.

Can a cam just lean over time...possibly if a bearing goes out, maybe the specs are off somewhere, too much pressure from the cable guard--if you're using tall fletching, this might be an issue...just speculation.

if I had cam lean like that, I'd pull the strings/cables the twist them to spec, reset ATA, bh, timing and see what happens (check the bearigns for excessive play/binding)


Top limb...could be. I was having tuning issues on a bow not too long ago---ended up that the limb had slipped a little...fixed that and all was good.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For one, I'd have my d-loop short, but long enough that twisting would not effect the bow string. 5/8" loop under draw should be adquate. After this, adjust the bow's draw length and length of d-loop to fit you.

I worry about bare shafts hitting with my fletched arrows like I worry about the Sun coming up tomorrow... Ie, I don't bare shaft tune..... However, I do make sure my arrows come out of the bow cleanly and I do the short or long version of Frenching tuning depending on the archery intended. Indoor/Hunting/3D distance, short. Outdoor target/Field, long. Want field points and fixed broadheads hitting together, tune as in standard procedure for such.

Of note; None of my 5 recent bows have yokes either, but they are pin point accurate...more accurate than I'm capable of....I've placed and won a bunch for not knowing how well a bare shaft impacts with my fletched arrow.


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## OkuanWakyn (May 2, 2013)

Fury90flier said:


> I had said add 25grn...should have said subtract--being that they're impacing left. Doesn't matter what the software says, it's what the results are that determine what we do. That said, it very well could be cam lean or shooter induced issues....one of the reasons I hate BS tuning---tells me everything I'm doing wrong.
> 
> Can a cam just lean over time...possibly if a bearing goes out, maybe the specs are off somewhere, too much pressure from the cable guard--if you're using tall fletching, this might be an issue...just speculation.
> 
> ...


Some good ideas here.

Lets think we have same bow,same shooter,same arrow,same bow settings (ATA,BH,DL etc)...all is constant
Lets say one day your BS hitting way to the right. (there is some problem...shooter or bow...but we dont change anything)
Lets say next day you want to double check your results but your BS hitting way to the left. (with all the things and settings same like day before)

So what can cause this happen? Bow with no yokes. 
For me it is sudden big cam lean or problem with the limb.

I try to understand what could possibly happen.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if your bare shaft is hitting left one day, then the next day right, All things being equal...it's the shooter. In order to BS tune, the shooter needs to be very consistent, if not, BS tuning is exactly "BS". But, in your case, it seems from your description, something has changed...limb, cables or cam/bearing.


relax the tension on the cams...lay an arrow across the cam---with the lean you're talking about, you should be able to see the angle in the arrow with the riser as a reference.

sometimes it's best not to understand first but to simply rectify the issue. In this case, go back to the beginning (bow setup) and see if you can trace out the problem...hence, relaxing the pressure on the cam (pressing the bow). If you press it and you still have lean, then cable tension probably isn't the issue...

the reason I point to ATA/BH etc is because I've had lean in my bow once---I had been playing with how the bow feels...was screwing around with DL vs advancing/retaring (how jacked up is this, I can't add the "d") the cam...got a good feeling draw the while tuning, noticed I had lean in one cam...a little more playing with cables/strings and all was good.


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