# Black panther in TN!!



## cropdustersteve (May 1, 2009)

Seen 'em a couple of times in south Arkansas. Game and Fish say they don't exist though.


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## Fldeerslayer (Jan 14, 2009)

There was a monsterquest show about this. There are tons of people report seeing them but the "Experts" say they don't exist.


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## MKNOX (Jul 8, 2007)

So far there has never been a documented case of a (hypermelanistic) black mountain lion EVER!!! The only large cats ever recorded with this color phase are Jaguars and Leapords and I am pretty sure they are not native to Tennessee.


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

Been 3-4 sightings in my area, one on trail cam after a family k9 nearly lost a leg. Area of sighting was about 10 miles, so it could possibly be the same one, but not likely. NCwildlife said "shoot it" and if it is brown, don't call him. If it's black call him.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Fldeerslayer said:


> There was a monsterquest show about this. There are tons of people report seeing them but the "Experts" say they don't exist.


Yep, tons of sightings, but every sighting that comes with a picture or video is proven to be a misidentification.

Mountain lions/panthers/cougars simply do not come in black. They do not possess the gene necessary for hypermelanoma.

Jaguars have a 6% chance of being black, but the black ones are localized, and the farthest north documentation has been in the amazon region of central south america.

the only black cats in the USA that are not escaped exotic critters are called house cats.


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## brodie1978 (Jul 24, 2008)

It's fiction


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## deerhuntinfool (Jun 2, 2009)

brodie1978 said:


> It's fiction


i see one once or twice a year.... nah i'm lying.... all BS.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

deerhuntinfool said:


> i see one once or twice a year.... nah i'm lying.... all BS.


I have no doubt that you are seeing something that you "think" is a black mountain lion.

I also have no doubt that you are NOT seeing a black mountain lion.

It is not possible....they cannot be black.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

LOL! That's the funniest thing about all these "reports"...... no one ever says they seen a Mtn Lion, no, no, they always see a BLACK panther! LOL!  I think it's a case of to much beer for to many hillbillies! :wink: :tongue:


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

You sure they were not hanging out around a polling/voting booth ?? There were some seen around those last year.......:tongue: .....


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## deerhuntinfool (Jun 2, 2009)

Big Country said:


> I have no doubt that you are seeing something that you "think" is a black mountain lion.
> 
> I also have no doubt that you are NOT seeing a black mountain lion.
> 
> It is not possible....they cannot be black.


ha sarcasm buddy, sarcasm. THERE ARE NO BLACK PANTHERS!


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## mtmedic (Sep 20, 2004)

Big Country said:


> Yep, tons of sightings, but every sighting that comes with a picture or video is proven to be a misidentification.
> 
> Mountain lions/panthers/cougars simply do not come in black. They do not possess the gene necessary for hypermelanoma.
> 
> ...


Jaquars have been seen in Arizona and Mexico over the last few years. Here is one of the most recent articles: 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090225-jaguar-picture.html


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

Big Country said:


> I have no doubt that you are seeing something that you "think" is a black mountain lion.
> 
> I also have no doubt that you are NOT seeing a black mountain lion.
> 
> It is not possible....they cannot be black.


And you know this because ..............?????????

Some so called TV expert says no way so you take it for that, I dont belive that for a minute there has been way to many sightings & photos that say otherwise.

on that monsterquest show the one walking along the ditch bank was clearly larger than a house cat, but thats what the so called expert dismissed it as.
Expert my A#$. Show me proof they cant be that color,for all I know they could be pink.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

mtmedic said:


> Jaquars have been seen in Arizona and Mexico over the last few years. Here is one of the most recent articles:
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090225-jaguar-picture.html


Agreed, there have been many sightings, and even several video documentations. But NOT of any black jaguars. The farthest north sighting of a black Jaguar has been in the central basin of south America.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

QuickReflex said:


> And you know this because ..............?????????
> 
> Some so called TV expert says no way so you take it for that, I dont belive that for a minute there has been way to many sightings & photos that say otherwise.
> 
> ...


It is simple genetics.....proven by DNA.

I know this because I read, and I pay attention to the details, the facts.

I have been listening to BS from all kinds of folks about all kinds of subjects for nearly 50 years now, and even a dummy like me can get fairly good at sifting the wheat from the fly scat in that amount of time.:wink:


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## deerhuntinfool (Jun 2, 2009)

i did see one in Mississippi though....


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

mtmedic said:


> Jaquars have been seen in Arizona and Mexico over the last few years. Here is one of the most recent articles:
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090225-jaguar-picture.html



that is pretty cool. "Jaguars, once common throughout the southern United States, were mostly killed off in the country by the early 1900s"

Last year we had a seal visit us from the Artic Circle  animals do travel! they can also breed with local animals which equals hybrids.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

I'm pretty certain there are quite a few black panthers in TN documented since 1969:nod:.
Here is the source---->CLICK


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Maybe they are just black bobcats.   I know how you flatlanders like to mix them up.


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## Flatfoot (Oct 5, 2007)

Here's one to look at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

Flatfoot said:


> Here's one to look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


that's a good sized cat with a long tail...


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

Flatfoot said:


> Here's one to look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


I guess that rather large Black cat didnt get his DNA tested.

Some people will belive anything you write in a book or put on TV, we call these Shepple just lead them nose to tail & belive what we say and everything will be ok. Sorry I dont walk that line.


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## stilwell#1 (Jul 6, 2009)

i believe you! my family lives on a farm in greenville tn an my grandpa has seen one twice and his friend that lives across the road seen one also... and they arent to far away from johnson city


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

MKNOX said:


> So far there has never been a documented case of a (hypermelanistic) black mountain lion EVER!!! The only large cats ever recorded with this color phase are Jaguars and Leapords and I am pretty sure they are not native to Tennessee.



Exactly...so if anyone is seeing a "black panther" they are seeing a jaguar.


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

Flatfoot said:


> Here's one to look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


How in the H#$# could anyone think that's a black panther??? Unless it is a midget panther that's a black house cat. Look how much bigger the buck is that walks out in front of where that "panther" crossed at.


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

This is usually what happens if someone shoots at the "black panther"

"my uncle said he saw a panther after about 30﻿ minutes they make a 400 yard shot to find out it was a 36 pound house cat "


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## fishfurlife (Jul 2, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> Has anybody seen a black panther in tn? I seen one and called twra but they pretty much laughed at me...and said if i have a picture of it to take it strait to the office...but they said there is no documented cases of a black panther in TN!!
> 
> So let's see if i'm not crazy!!


If you only knew how many black panther calls I have fielded throughout my days you would understand a little bit more as to why they might chuckle. I know it isn't very professional but it is somewhat of a running joke in this career.


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## jeb0217 (Apr 4, 2008)

say what you want to say - i saw one a few years back less than 50 yards while blackpower hunting. No doubt in my mind they exist.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

letemgrow said:


> How in the H#$# could anyone think that's a black panther??? Unless it is a midget panther that's a black house cat. Look how much bigger the buck is that walks out in front of where that "panther" crossed at.



watch the video again- the cat crosses further away on the path. also compare it to the brush and sapling...


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## Bowhuntr64 (Aug 6, 2007)

They are real! My great grandfather's uncle's brother's next door neighbor saw one chasing Bigfoot and another one that was running away from Nessie!:darkbeer:


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

Bowhuntr64 said:


> They are real! My great grandfather's uncle's brother's next door neighbor saw one chasing Bigfoot and another one that was running away from Nessie!:darkbeer:


OH SURE- now they're going to say Bigfoot DNA doesn't exist! when will it end


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## VanillaKilla (Dec 22, 2005)

I saw a Black Panther across the street from my house he was yelling something about cracker honky!!! LOL


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## gatider (Dec 18, 2007)

My dad saw a black cat in a tree fishing on the Sabine river once. The Sabine runs the LA, Tx border. He said he was floating down the river and saw it up in the tree. So yes, I believe you. It is just like Mt. Lions. You talk to folks around and they sware they don't exist but I have talked to too many hunters in states from Tx to Ga who have seen them. They are out there just nocturnal so it is VERY rare to see one.


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## FLINT HEAD (Aug 5, 2003)

We have sightings all the time in S.C. I've never seen one but my wife has, and she could care less if anyone believes her or not. It's kind of funny to me that about five years ago, out of no where, the S.C. rules and reg book says that you can't hunt or kill a Cougar????????? Seems odd that they would add that line for no reason. Until I see one I'll remain skeptical... but I won't say it's impossible.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Anybody wanna see the picture i have of it? it's on a gamecamera that i put out...and imo if the thing comes within shooting distance of me wheter is with a gun or bow the thing is getting shot at!!


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## Bowhuntr64 (Aug 6, 2007)

cmalone1 said:


> Anybody wanna see the picture i have of it? it's on a gamecamera that i put out...and imo if the thing comes within shooting distance of me wheter is with a gun or bow the thing is getting shot at!!


Yes...I want to see the pic. All it would take is one carcass or clear cut pic to silence all of us skeptics.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Heres the pictures guys...i checked it today and had the photo on there!!

Look at the time stamps on the bottom and you can see i have it set at 3 minute intervals


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## oktx (Jul 21, 2006)

It's a black and white pic. Anything dark will show up black. Maybe a mountain lion but not a black one.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

oktx said:


> It's a black and white pic. Anything dark will show up black. Maybe a mountain lion but not a black one.


but look at the deer in the first picture...if i'm right all the deer i have ever seen are brown...mt lions that i have ever seen are brown...soooo...????


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## coweye (May 23, 2009)

I saw a orange and black one in my living room bouncing on his tail saying something about a wonderful tigger


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

I knew i would get people that didnt believe me on here!! I'm not asking everyone in the world to believe me...BUT!! i know what i see in the pictures...i found the picture and about crapped myself...so i know there's going to be 234987359734 responses everyone with their own opinion...i have talked to people that swear on their mothers graves that they have seen them with their own eyes...so i'm just saying it might be possible....miracles still happen!!:wink:


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

they must have escaped from KY!!! Everyone sees them up here!

Pretty simple, shoot one and then you have the proof you need. Till then, even if its the truth, no ones going to believe it.........except the bigfoot sighters, and the alien sighters!!


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> they must have escaped from KY!!! Everyone sees them up here!
> 
> Pretty simple, shoot one and then you have the proof you need. Till then, even if its the truth, no ones going to believe it.........except the bigfoot sighters, and the alien sighters!!


exactly!! and i knew i would get some off the wall responses and nay sayers...but thats cool!! one of the coolest pictures i have ever seen...lol


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


fella, I believe you are the proud owner of a PHOTO of a large black................................................................................................................................................................................................"HOUSECAT"!! Congrats to you!:darkbeer:


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## mtelkhuntr (Aug 18, 2009)

Go back and measure the tree exactly where the top of the cat's back is, that will tell us size and should eliminate house cats.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Going back to measure friday...had people tell me that today...but i just judged it off of the deer in the first picture...sooo i will document the pictures on friday and post them as soon as i get them...


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

If that's a housecat, then those are Key deer- tiny!

I'm playing around with the picture in Photoshop- adding a lot of brightness and it's popping out pretty well. 

Anyway, here's a crop of that animal, brightened, but otherwise untouched. Try blowing it up- it stays clear up to about 400% for me.


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## coweye (May 23, 2009)

Do you see that big 4 pronger in the back ground, I'd like to dig it


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## tnts79 (Sep 21, 2007)

I am convinced thats a big black puddy tat!!:wink:


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## cmillett79 (Oct 24, 2008)

Im not gonna say there is or isnt any large black cats in the south..Ive seen and heard some explainable things here in MS in the swamps and back in no mans land .. The imagination is a powerfull thing .. But I have never seen a large black cat .... I have how ever killed a VERY large bobcat , 36lbs if I remember .. It was a large female , but was unique about this one she appeared to be solid black when I saw her , I then shot the cat..Upon closer inspection she was spotted but the ends of her hairs were solid black ( except for the belly) and the only way you could see her spots was if you brushed her hair against the grain . SO in turn she appeared t be a "black cat" ...The cat was unusally large ( bigger than the normal bobcats I kill ) .. Im 5'7' tall . I have a picture that I took holding her up by her hind legs.. Her hind paws were at my shoulders and the cats fron paws were on the ground...I should have mounted her but I blew I pretty good hole in her ... The picture doesnt show her color well and the pic was taken with her belly facing the camera..


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

House cat dude....get a grip...


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

cmalone1 said:


> Has anybody seen a black panther in tn? I seen one and called twra but they pretty much laughed at me...and said if i have a picture of it to take it strait to the office...but they said there is no documented cases of a black panther in TN!!
> 
> So let's see if i'm not crazy!!


thats because they don't exist lol. they are a melanistic jaguar and to my knowledge, they only occur about as often as my winning lotto tickets do.:darkbeer:


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## huntsman1024 (Aug 20, 2006)

What I find peculiar about the picture is the manner of the cat's walk. Walking along a downed tree like that is characteristic (although not exclusively so ) of a smaller animal, i.e a housecat. I would think that if this were indeed a large cat, and he is in such close proximity to the deer, he would be in a stealthier manner of movement. The times on the pictures indicate the deer and the cat being within minutes of each other.


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## frasermark (Jan 12, 2008)

If there are black panthers, cougars or what have you why havent we ever seen a picture of of a hide nailed to a barn from the 1800s or something, I just cant believe


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Is a Black Puma/Mountain Lion/Cougar possible? yep sure is ! Melinistic (Dark))is the opposite of Leucistic (Albino) they are simple mutations, they both occur in all animals and Melanism is far more common and is often beneficial to the species.

A simple search turned this up, here's a Black Cat found in Florida http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story/Rare-Black-Bob-Cat-Captured/pQ1teXR2Xkm01xJh42b8JA.cspx








a Bob Cat but they are no more likely to produce Melanism than say Cougars. the difference being that there are far more Bob Cats thus increasing the chances of the mutation occurring. So there for sure have been Black Cougars, is there one out there now? who knows but there will be again.

As for the game cam photo well it is to big to be a house cat and is far darker than a normal Cougar but you can't say for sure is is actually black. But then most Black Panthers IE Jags are not completely black either.

It always amazes me how many people say such and such is not true or impossible yet they are going on want they think instead of facts. Heck a simple internet search would have told anyone who bothered to look that yes a black cougar is possible. Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

huntsman1024 said:


> What I find peculiar about the picture is the manner of the cat's walk. Walking along a downed tree like that is characteristic (although not exclusively so ) of a smaller animal, i.e a housecat. I would think that if this were indeed a large cat, and he is in such close proximity to the deer, he would be in a stealthier manner of movement. The times on the pictures indicate the deer and the cat being within minutes of each other.


I've seen 400 pound bears walk down logs like that so what's your point?? Randy


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## ground checker (Mar 25, 2009)

where is this at around johnson city? i went to school at etsu and used to hunt around there a good bit.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

My upstate neighbors :hippie: see all that stuff too. probably soon after that pungent odor of burning vegetation wafts across the valley to my place :flypig:


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## Hiawatha (Dec 6, 2005)

coweye said:


> I saw a orange and black one in my living room bouncing on his tail saying something about a wonderful tigger


I have the one of those 8 month old loves it so i can't bring myself to shoot it wouldn't be terribly upset if the batteries died though


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> Is a Black Puma/Mountain Lion/Cougar possible? yep sure is ! Melinistic (Dark))is the opposite of Leucistic (Albino) they are simple mutations, they both occur in all animals and Melanism is far more common and is often beneficial to the species.
> 
> A simple search turned this up, here's a Black Cat found in Florida http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story/Rare-Black-Bob-Cat-Captured/pQ1teXR2Xkm01xJh42b8JA.cspx
> 
> ...


Umm, many of have bothered to look, and even your provided article says black panthers do not exist.

The picture you provided is of a 20 pound cat(bobcat). That is clearly a small bobcat, no larger than a tubby tabby.

BTW, your highlighted line above is not accurate. A "panther" is another name for a mountain lion or cougar. A Jaguar is a Jaguar........and there has NEVER been any type of documentation showing a black Jaguar north of the central Amazon basin, which is WAY south of Texas or Arizona.

There are exactly as many black panther sited in the USA each year as there is bigfoot, coyotes imported by insurance companies, cougars airdropped by game commissions, and Elvis sightings.

ZERO.......:tongue:


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> fella, I believe you are the proud owner of a PHOTO of a large black................................................................................................................................................................................................"HOUSECAT"!! Congrats to you!:darkbeer:


Some of you guys up north have got some huge house cats.

The cat in the photo has got to weigh 60# at least. Its as big as a dog, House cat my ***** , I thought you guys were hunters you cant distinguish the difference between a house cat & a Large cat. Im starting to wonder about you all.

Look at the log & the base of the tree how would a house cats body block that much of a tree that size. that trees gotta be 24" to 30" . CK out the thickness if his tail. that isnt no house cat just to big.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

perhaps you have the ONLY picture of a black panther known. Something I found below.

_The infamous ‘black panther’ 

Outside his office in Jackson, Peterson keeps a map of west Tennessee that’s decorated with hundreds of multi-colored dots. Some of the dots represent bear sightings. Others are for "tan panther" sightings, and still others mark reported sightings of "black panthers." 

Black panther sightings outnumber the others by more than a 2-1 ratio. 

Trouble is, there’s no such thing as a black panther. 

"Never in history has there been any evidence of a so-called black panther or black cougar," Peterson said. "There has never been one killed, captured or even photographed anywhere in the world. But when someone calls in claiming to have seen a black panther in west Tennessee, you can’t talk them out of it. They’re usually convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that’s what they’ve seen." 

Peterson said many animals could be responsible for the so-called black panther sightings, including large dogs, bobcats, coyotes and even river otters. He used to tell callers to shoot the animal and bring in its carcass for proof. But after inspecting the carcasses of two large, black house cats, he decided that wasn’t the best idea. 

Now when he gets a call from someone claiming to have seen a large cat — tan or black — he recommends a less destructive approach. He urges the caller to get photos or video of the animal or to make plaster casts of its footprints. 

"For about $1.25 at Wal-Mart, you can get plaster of Paris and make a perfect imprint of the tracks that will last for years," Peterson said. "We can tell right away what we’re dealing with by looking at those casts." 

They usually turn out to be nothing. 

"I’ve looked at hundreds of supposed cougar or panther tracks through the years," Peterson said. "Almost every one of them has turned out to be nothing more than a dog track." 

Surprisingly, Peterson said, most of the calls he receives about large, predatory cats in west Tennessee come from urban and suburban Memphis. 

"I would never call anyone a liar or make light of any phone call that we’ve received," Peterson said. "But think about it: If you were a large cat that feeds mainly on whitetail deer, would you be hanging out in downtown Memphis or out in the woods somewhere? The fact that most of those calls come from urban areas suggests to me that people are seeing something besides panthers or cougars." 

Unlike the mythical black panther, large, tan-colored cats known as mountain lions or eastern cougars really do exist. But there is no evidence of such cats anywhere in Tennessee. 



U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

Alleged sightings of mountain lions like this one have been reported across Arkansas and Tennessee for years. A few sightings have been verified in Arkansas, but no viable breeding population exists. No predatory cat sighting has been verified in Tennessee._


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## jcsanders79-xt (Aug 28, 2007)

I don't know about black panthers but I live in Chattanooga and a friends parents got a pic of a mountain lion in there yard on Signal Mountain.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Ah, but then there is this!!

_Black Leopard
(Panthera pardus) 
You may want to call these cats black panthers, but there's really no such animal. "Panther" is a generic work used to describe many large cats, especially black ones, but also Florida panthers which are just a subspecies of cougar. We have both black leopards and black jaguars here - they're often born in the same litter as the normal colored cats, because the black color, called melanism, is due to a recessive gene. So, melanistic cubs can be born to two spotted parents. The cats are actually dark brown, with the same pattern of black spots as any other leopard. There are no solid black big cats. 


Black Leopards at EFBC/FCC 


Meesha Female, born approximately 10/91. Was found in a boxcar with several other big cats up in Washington. Mother of several cubs, she is now fixed. More Photos
With Cub
On Log 


Roby Son of Meesha and Isaac, born here 15 September 1995. Has a sister (littermate) named Niah, now in Seoul, South Korea. Handraised, still enjoys pets from many volunteers (from outside the cage). Doesn't like men in general, especially if they resemble our vet. Photo history at Births 1995. 

Tran Son of Meesha and Isaac, born here on 1 October 1996. Littermate of *Kota (who moved to Memphis Zoo in 2007). *Mother raised, and so not friendly at all_ 

*Holy Moly you got pics of Kota, which as unknowingly escaped the Memphis Zoo!!!!*


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

QuickReflex said:


> Some of you guys up north have got some huge house cats.
> 
> The cat in the photo has got to weigh 60# at least. Its as big as a dog, House cat my ***** , I thought you guys were hunters you cant distinguish the difference between a house cat & a Large cat. Im starting to wonder about you all.
> 
> Look at the log & the base of the tree how would a house cats body block that much of a tree that size. that trees gotta be 24" to 30" . CK out the thickness if his tail. that isnt no house cat just to big.


Funny how different folks see the same thing thing totally different?

I have hunted for 37 years now, and have killed well over 200 big game animals in multiple states and countries. When I look at the picture where you see a 60# plus animal, I see a critter much smaller than the fawn in the 2 deer picture above it.

I also know that black panthers simply do not happen, so I am looking at the picture objectively trying to figure out what it is....not what I know for sure it is not.

In this day and age of technology, we still have not a single verifiable photo, video clip, etc. to bolster these far flung claims of black cougars.

We do have simple genetic evidence that clearly states cougars cannot come in black.

The bigfoot crowd is undaunted by any scientific data though......:darkbeer:


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

ravensgait said:


> they are no more likely to produce Melanism than say Cougars. the difference being that there are far more Bob Cats thus increasing the chances of the mutation occurring.
> 
> Heck a simple internet search would have told anyone who bothered to look that yes a black cougar is possible.


The difference is that true melanism requires a certain gene and _Felis concolor_ does NOT have that gene. 

Show us the data that says a melanistic cougar is possible. I've done that search myself, not to mention that I have a M.S. in Wildlife Biology and have done this search in the scientific journals, too. 

It's a VERY interesting topic because I have friends who casually mentioned seeing "black panthers" as part of a whole nother discussion. I've also been on the other side of the coin where I was looking at a family of pileated woodpeckers that I later found out were about 500 miles out of range. And I've done the same with a sidewinder rattlesnake that is not supposed to exist in New Mexico, but there I was looking at eliptical pupils, horns on the nose, and a side-winding motion, all at my feet. That was 20 years ago before cell phones and cameras. So, I'm flipped on this topic- the scientific literature says that melanistic cougars are impossible, black jags are only about 6-8% of the jag population and usually occur in rain forest environments (which TN is not!). There are no black cougars in museums, none on farmer's doors, none have been hit by cars, and we have no pictures of such. We have all of those for regular cougars (and wolves, and etc.) The nearest picture I found was a cougar shot in Mexico (according to the photo) but it's hanging in the shade and looks "dark" as opposed to black. 

At the same time, people are reporting a lot of things and I don't think they're all house-cats. My neighbors to the south of me, for instance, just a few months ago reported a "jaguarundi". These are cowboys who've grown up around cougars, coyotes, housecats, etc. and they had it w/in 50 yards. I said "is it still alive?" and got a laugh and then a "yes". "Next time, SHOOT IT!!!" What was it? I dunno... jaguarundi sound most plausible but it's WAY out of range and habitat.

To paraphrase Rod Tidwell- show me the skin! Show me the SKIN!!!


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## Silage_Man26 (Sep 16, 2008)

That could very well be a dog... But reguardless, you dont have a black panter, black puma, black mtn lion or anything else of the sort on camera. Its scientificly impossible... they dont exist.. im not calling you a liar, but dont jump to conclusions.. They are about as rare as aliens..... Im not far from you in JC and ive got hundreds of thousands of trail cam pics of places so remote you cant even imagine.. Yes deer, bear, yotes, bobcats and everyother thing you can imagine but a mtn lion or anything black in the cat family.. 

So i think either you got a dog, or a big house cat


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Black puma? black jaguar? black mt. lion? Extremely doubtful.

black leopards are more common, but the only catch to that is they are only native in the wild in Central India, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, and islands of Java and Sumatra.

So unless one has either A) made the journey from India to TN. or B) escaped a local zoo or been released into the wild by a pet owner........now come to think of it, its very possible.


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

b_vanfossen said:


> OH SURE- now they're going to say Bigfoot DNA doesn't exist! when will it end


If you know where the squares are in the everglades you can find them in there! Friends in the hunt club we had lost a dog to one.


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

scrapejuice said:


> Black puma? black jaguar? black mt. lion? Extremely doubtful.
> 
> black leopards are more common, but the only catch to that is they are only native in the wild in Central India, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, and islands of Java and Sumatra.
> 
> So unless one has either A) made the journey from India to TN. or B) escaped a local zoo or been released into the wild by a pet owner........now come to think of it, its very possible.


Keep in mind that there are allot of documented casses where owners of these beasts couldnt handle them so instead of taking them to zoo or call someone for help they did what? Let them go into our woods! Just like the boa's in the everglades. Another thing.. There are black leopards in central america been there for a while too.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

georgiabuckdan said:


> Keep in mind that there are allot of documented casses where owners of these beasts couldnt handle them so instead of taking them to zoo or call someone for help they did what? Let them go into our woods! Just like the boa's in the everglades. *Another thing.. There are black leopards in central america been there for a while too.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> those are jaguars, not leopards.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

melanism(black fur) does occur in both jaguars and leopards just to set that straight.


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

scrapejuice said:


> georgiabuckdan said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind that there are allot of documented casses where owners of these beasts couldnt handle them so instead of taking them to zoo or call someone for help they did what? Let them go into our woods! Just like the boa's in the everglades. *Another thing.. There are black leopards in central america been there for a while too.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Yep, tons of sightings, but every sighting that comes with a picture or video is proven to be a misidentification.
> 
> Mountain lions/panthers/cougars simply do not come in black. They do not possess the gene necessary for hypermelanoma.
> 
> ...


Not to nitpick, but that would be "hypermelanism," not "hypermelanoma." The cougars don't have cancer. :wink:


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

oktx said:


> It's a black and white pic. Anything dark will show up black. Maybe a mountain lion but not a black one.


hahah. thanks for the good laugh. Deer are close to the same shade of brown as the Mt Lion. why arn't the deer black in the pic then?

I thought I saw a putty cat


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

One would think that a scientific specimen of a black cougar would have shown up by now, since they have been reported for hundreds of years. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it seems improbable that they could avoid being shot by humans or discovered as carcasses for that long, especially if they are propagating.

That being said, I do not buy for a SECOND that felis concolor does not "possess" the proper gene for hypermelanism. Nearly all mammals have a melanistic phase. Hypermelanism is a genetic mutation, therefore if an animal has melanocytes, it has the possibility of an overabundance.


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## BoonerToon (Feb 1, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


if you look at the contrast of the images you can see that some of the trees in the pictures look black too. i dont believe this is a black panther, however an eastern cougar is completely plausible, and not as rare as you might think, plus it makes just as good of a story!


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

cmillett79 said:


> Upon closer inspection she was spotted but the ends of her hairs were solid black ( except for the belly) and the only way you could see her spots was if you brushed her hair against the grain



If the breed of cat has spots and one is born melantistic, the spots are still visible. Hard to see but they are still there.

Since jaguars use to be native to the southern half of the US. Why wouldn't it be possible that there is a population hidden in deep country. With their reclusive nature I feel it is possible.

Now as far as someone stating no pictures taken in the 1800's of a hunter taking one- everone didn't have a camera back then. I feel the trail cam pics with the deer and cat are evidence enough. Is it a "black panther" IDK- but it sure is a big black cat.

Remember- a few hundred years ago people felt just as strongly that the world was flat and you could simply fall off the edge.


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## drawforce (Feb 25, 2003)

*believe it*

i never thought they were possible especially here in tn.however last spring while turkey hunting we saw a black, yes solid black cat of some type trying to stalk down a levy and hunt the same turkeys we were after.the animal was spooked when it saw us and ran for the woods leaped over the levy and dissapeared.three of us all saw it and yelled panther at the same time.another guy hunted this land for deer the previous year and reported seeing one from his deer stand.i did not believe him and tried to convince him he had seen a really big and dark bobcat but he stuck to his story.now i have seen it with my own eyes at less than 200 feet and i can say seeing is believing.was it a cougar,leopard or some undiscoverd cat i dont know.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Funny how different folks see the same thing thing totally different?
> 
> I have hunted for 37 years now, and have killed well over 200 big game animals in multiple states and countries. When I look at the picture where you see a 60# plus animal, I see a critter much smaller than the fawn in the 2 deer picture above it.
> 
> ...



So if i take measurements and post them up on here will you be satisfied that the cat in the picture is DEFINATELY bigger than any HOUSE CAT??


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

oktx said:


> It's a black and white pic. Anything dark will show up black. Maybe a mountain lion but not a black one.


Are you serious? If that's not a BLACK cat then I will go dive down my stairs into the concrete.


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> So if i take measurements and post them up on here will you be satisfied that the cat in the picture is DEFINATELY bigger than any HOUSE CAT??


Take your wifes cat and throw it out there and make it stay there til it takes a picture of it so the kids on here will believe you that it's bigger than a housecat. You may have to spray paint some cardboard, brown, black, gray, green, etc. so they can realize that cat is black and not a #### mtn lion that just magically shows up solid black "b/c it's a black and white picture"


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

coweye said:


> Do you see that big 4 pronger in the back ground, I'd like to dig it


what are you talking about?


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

If you think that's a housecat you probably pass a lot of 160 deer with your shrink vision.


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## 1smoothredneck (Jan 14, 2005)

I've never seen a mtn lion here in Tn. I HAVE seen something that blew me away about five years ago. I was out scouting for stand sights and found
what appeared to be a full grown goat carcass in the fork of a tree about twenty six or so feet up a tree... I dunno, but I think a bobcat woulda had problems getting a big goat in that tree. I didn't scout that particular ridge any more. Not cause I was scared, but I hadn't been seeing much sign up till
I saw the goat, and figured the presence of something(whatever IT was) that
could do that was probably not conducive to deer patterns..
And I don't drink @ all:wink:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

NM_HighPlains said:


> The difference is that true melanism requires a certain gene and _Felis concolor_ does NOT have that gene.
> 
> Show us the data that says a melanistic cougar is possible. I've done that search myself, not to mention that I have a M.S. in Wildlife Biology and have done this search in the scientific journals, too.
> 
> ...


LMAO that is the biggest load of BS yet ! they lack the gene lol.. They lack the gene when it is a mutation well unless it is adaptive Melanism then is is a dominate ETC ETC do some research before posting lol. I hate to put it this way but I find it hard to believe you have a MS in anything to do with animals as you seem to know nothing about this subject. 

-----

I said this before there may or may not be a black cougar out there but tomorrow, 10 or 100 years from now there will be a black cougar.

Funny Melanism is common in all species of cat why would Cougars be any different . Oh yeah they lack the gene LMAO ..Randy


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

I said this before there may or may not be a black cougar out there but tomorrow, 10 or 100 years from now there will be a black cougar.

Funny Melanism is common in all species of cat why would Cougars be any different . Oh yeah they lack the gene LMAO ..Randy[/QUOTE]

Boa's arent native to the u.s. But If you want your more than welcome to go wading through some of the everglades marshes. Things get released and breed. I wouldnt be so quick to try to discredit folks. You have some of them in upstate ny.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Silage_Man26 said:


> That could very well be a dog... But reguardless, you dont have a black panter, black puma, black mtn lion or anything else of the sort on camera. Its scientificly impossible... they dont exist.. im not calling you a liar, but dont jump to conclusions.. They are about as rare as aliens..... Im not far from you in JC and ive got hundreds of thousands of trail cam pics of places so remote you cant even imagine.. Yes deer, bear, yotes, bobcats and everyother thing you can imagine but a mtn lion or anything black in the cat family..
> 
> So i think either you got a dog, or a big house cat



So how is it impossible? please prove your point because you are so very wrong.. Randy


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

this thread is increasingly entertaining


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

cmalone1 said:


> So if i take measurements and post them up on here will you be satisfied that the cat in the picture is DEFINATELY bigger than any HOUSE CAT??


Wouldn't it be easier to make a cutout mountain lion with cardboard thats 30" tall and 90" long. 

How much does an August fawn weigh in Tennessee?


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

cmalone1 said:


> So if i take measurements and post them up on here will you be satisfied that the cat in the picture is DEFINATELY bigger than any HOUSE CAT??


Haven't you all ever heard about the old trophy photo trick where you hold the deer head way out in front of you to make it look bigger?

While you are out taking measurements do us all a favor and measure these two things:

1. The distance from your trail cam to the little log that the cat is on.
2. The distance from your trail cam to the big log that the doe is standing behind.


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## MKNOX (Jul 8, 2007)

cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


OK if we assume the log the cat is walking on is 8" in diameter the the cat standing on it is about 13 or 14" tall at the middle of its back and 24 inches long from the base of its tail to the tip of its nose. i am sorry but that is one TINY PANTHER!!! If you don't like my math use a caliper and do it yourself. If the log is smaller than 8" in diameter then the cat is even smaller!!


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## 2wyoming (Sep 5, 2007)

Here is what I have personally researched and found out.

black "Panthers" do exist.

Which is a mountain lion, with a black coat.

Like animals being Albino, they do not produce enough pigment in the skin, which everyone probably knows, and the skin coat is white.

There have been cases of "Black" Deer in western texas.
The blackness comes from producing too much pigment, which makes the coat of hair on the animal become black, or very dark.

If you google "Black Deer" you will see many pictures of jet black deer.

just my 2 cents


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## BoonerToon (Feb 1, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> this thread is increasingly entertaining


hahaha +1000


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## nojreyd (Oct 1, 2008)

*black bobcats / pumas*

I have reserached mountain lions up here since they started appearing in Michigan and all of my research has led to a few things.

1. Many big cat sightings are in fact misidentification.
2. Black big cat sightings seem to heavily outweigh regular color sightings (which if you play the genetic odds, even if possible, is very unlikely).
3. I trust that Geneticists know more about animal DNA than backcountry hillbillies who say "you can't prove they don't exist". 
4. I have talked to a few people that I trust have actually seen cougars in the state of michigan. Whether they are transients, or have made this their home is yet to be determined.
5. If you honestly see a black panther, shoot to kill. Prove us all wrong please! 

Also, this is a cool article with pictures of a black bobcat captured in florida in 2007. Read up!
http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story/Rare-Black-Bob-Cat-Captured/pQ1teXR2Xkm01xJh42b8JA.cspx


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## team_realtree (Mar 17, 2009)

there were several sightings of black mountain lions in my city in ontario last year.....they did find mountain lion dna but no one believed it.


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## nojreyd (Oct 1, 2008)

*My photo*

The above being said, I too have a picture of a black panther in michigan!!! Here it is. I think the secret to seeing a black panther in michigan is to sit in your blind after you have tagged out and drink bloody marys all day and watch deer run around. Something about bloody marys brings the black panthers out...:tongue:


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## nojreyd (Oct 1, 2008)

team_realtree said:


> there were several sightings of black mountain lions in my city in ontario last year.....they did find mountain lion dna but no one believed it.


I saw a purple deer behind my house and I collected some droppings from the same field that i saw the purple deer and had them tested and it was in fact a deer!

They have footprints from bigfoot too...


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

nojreyd said:


> The above being said, I too have a picture of a black panther in michigan!!! Here it is. I think the secret to seeing a black panther in michigan is to sit in your blind after you have tagged out and drink bloody marys all day and watch deer run around. Something about bloody marys brings the black panthers out...:tongue:


Lmao, puppy dogs don't count.... Head to San Augustine Texas if you want to black kitty on film... their there in abundance.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

PUG said:


> Actually...Cougars fall under the genus "Felis" while the majority of the other big cats fall under the genus "Panthera"....Panther is a generic term used to describe any black big cat....And honestly, in the scientific world, the Cougar isnt even consdiered a member of the Big Cat group because it doesnt fall under the Panthera Genus...Its considered the largest of the Small Cats...which also include bobcat, lynx and many other smaller species of wild feline....Oh...and House Cats too...
> 
> Melanism in Cougars, which is consdiered a very young species in terms of evolution, has NEVER been documented...Not once...at a 6% rate for SA Jaguars, Melanism is not common, although it can be found in higher denstities in pocketed populations of the cat...IF, and thats a big IF, a large black cat is documented, photographed, shot or otherwise found ANYWHERE in the US it will most likely be an escaped or illegaly released pet/display/ or sanctuary animal...and more than likely be a Melanistic Jaguar...IT WILL NOT BE AN AMERICAN MOUNTAIN LION...


its nice to finally hear an educated post on here (there have been a few more), rather than lots of mumbo jumbo! Its not that hard, google some of these "buzz" words or phases. The net is already right at these peoples fingertips. Lots of people on here seem to know just enough to be dangerous. Its still amazing how people will deny proven facts, but rather continue to quote their "cousin's brother's uncle"!


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

you people keep coming on here with proven facts and your ruining it for all of us that love the "mystical" powers of the un-known!!


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## CHAMPION2 (May 6, 2004)

Those black labs tend to look like mountain lions after a shots of Wild turkey!! (




Cornfed said:


> LOL! That's the funniest thing about all these "reports"...... no one ever says they seen a Mtn Lion, no, no, they always see a BLACK panther! LOL!  I think it's a case of to much beer for to many hillbillies! :wink: :tongue:


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## nojreyd (Oct 1, 2008)

Even with all my Tom-foolery and mumbo-jumbo above, I do feel that no matter what the opinion or facts are, nature often finds a way to prove us wrong. Maybe this fall with be the season that somebody finally proves us nay-sayers wrong! Have your camera (and rifles) ready! Biologists and crypto zoologists around the world would cheer. (well, if you shot one, biologists might be upset...but at least there is proof).


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> you people keep coming on here with proven facts and your ruining it for all of us that love the "mystical" powers of the un-known!!


 Dude.... roam around San Augustine river bottoms and then tell me about the unknown.... 

Don't even think about baiting them....


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## heartshot88 (Oct 20, 2008)

Maybe by the year 2024 they will be black.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


I'm not sure what that is but it's not a dog and it's not a house cat for crying out loud! Anyone that looks at that pic and sees a dog needs to have their vision checked lol! Even if discounting the deer as being young TN deer, the cat in the picture is still too big to be a house cat. Possibly a large dark phase bobcat but who knows?


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

RxBowhunter said:


> Possibly a large dark phase bobcat but who knows?


Nosire, bobcats don't have long tails... either fake or mishaps in photograph but looks legit too me..


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## mobowhunter31 (Nov 12, 2008)

*What?*



scrapejuice said:


> fella, I believe you are the proud owner of a PHOTO of a large black................................................................................................................................................................................................"HOUSECAT"!! Congrats to you!:darkbeer:


Your high if you think that is a house cat.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

mobowhunter31 said:


> Your high if you think that is a house cat.


I have been accused of worse!! but I am still sticking with it, That is a large, black, housecat! or at least that is the most likely of all other possibilities.


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## GETMRUTN (Mar 5, 2009)

I have been sitting here talking about this with a guy that is from Johnson City Area and he said he has heard of this cat to. His dad said that he hunts with a few guys that claim they have seen a cat like this as well. 

We have been sitting here looking at this cat and doing searches about this and that is by no means a HOUSE CAT!! Whether its a pet that escaped or what have you, It's indeed a LARGE CAT and not a HOUSE CAT. Look at the tail most of all. Show me a house cat even a large fat one with long legs like that. But I wish the camera wasnt on a 3 min delay. Would have liked to see a head shot or broad side shot. But anyway, Its not a dag or house cat.


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> but I am still sticking with it, That is a large, black, housecat!


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627775
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627777

OK, click on each one... suddenly a house cat is as tall as a deer...


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## cropdustersteve (May 1, 2009)

oktx said:


> It's a black and white pic. Anything dark will show up black. Maybe a mountain lion but not a black one.


Ohhhh!!! You gotta be kiddin' me man! You can sit there, look at that, and then tell us that you honestly don't think that's black????!!!!! This is giving me a migraine.


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

GETMRUTN said:


> I have been sitting here talking about this with a guy that is from Johnson City Area and he said he has heard of this cat to. His dad said that he hunts with a few guys that claim they have seen a cat like this as well.
> 
> We have been sitting here looking at this cat and doing searches about this and that is by no means a HOUSE CAT!! Whether its a pet that escaped or what have you, It's indeed a LARGE CAT and not a HOUSE CAT. Look at the tail most of all. Show me a house cat even a large fat one with long legs like that. But I wish the camera wasnt on a 3 min delay. Would have liked to see a head shot or broad side shot. But anyway, Its not a dag or house cat.


Long legs??? There's maybe 4-6 inches of daylight between the log and it's belly. The cat is about 1/4 the size of the fawn in the first pic, it's a house cat that has been eating well. 

Of course everyone in Johnson City has seen a black panther, as soon as one person makes that claim everyone is looking for it. The first dog, house cat, or bobcat they see at a distance turns in to an animal that no one can prove exists. People see what they want to see and this picture proves it.


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## huskyarcher (Feb 2, 2009)

athomPT said:


> Been 3-4 sightings in my area, one on trail cam after a family k9 nearly lost a leg. Area of sighting was about 10 miles, so it could possibly be the same one, but not likely. NCwildlife said "shoot it" and if it is brown, don't call him. If it's black call him.



Never seen one... but i do love the end of your signature.:wink:


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## TnLungBuster (Mar 19, 2006)

There is no way that is a house cat....

This may be irrelevant, but just a couple of years ago I thought I saw a a black panther and my cousin ended up seeing it and it was a black coyote. 

Now I know this is not a coyote, but maybe a black cougar or big bobcat?


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

TnLungBuster said:


> Now I know this is not a coyote, but maybe a black cougar or big bobcat?


Hmm, black cougar = aww nevermind
big bobcat... lol .... catch him by his big black long tail...


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Anyone ever heard of depth perception????

just curious.


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## ks_bow_hunter (Sep 4, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> So if i take measurements and post them up on here will you be satisfied that the cat in the picture is DEFINATELY bigger than any HOUSE CAT??


Take a picture of yourself standing there with something we can reference for size.


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> Anyone ever heard of depth perception????
> 
> just curious.



Not too much depth between the front of a tree and the back of it.....


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## GETMRUTN (Mar 5, 2009)

Kansas Bruisers said:


> Long legs??? There's maybe 4-6 inches of daylight between the log and it's belly. The cat is about 1/4 the size of the fawn in the first pic, it's a house cat that has been eating well.
> 
> Of course everyone in Johnson City has seen a black panther, as soon as one person makes that claim everyone is looking for it. The first dog, house cat, or bobcat they see at a distance turns in to an animal that no one can prove exists. People see what they want to see and this picture proves it.



Show me a fat house cat thats belly isnt rubbing the ground!!!! 

If a house cat is as big as that then its belly WILL NOT be that high off the ground. The legs are long on this cat and not short. I have three outside cats here in my barn and I will tell you the longest the legs are on either of them are no longer than 6-8 in. You are in serious denial if you think this is a house cat. PLEASE.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

7thSeal said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627775
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627777
> 
> OK, click on each one... suddenly a house cat is as tall as a deer...


Alright, here is my take on those pics. Stay with me here.

The fawn is approx. 3 feet behind the tree, the tree is at least 1' in diameter(probably more), the cat's back is approx. 1' in front of the tree. Thats a total of 5'. Right??

The fawn's back is roughly 28" at its back(at most). That means its belly approx. 16 or less". I believe if you move that cat back to the same distance as the fawn, it could easily walk under that fawn. With that said it is a large house cat that stands approx. 14" or slightly less at its shoulder height.

That is how I come to the conclusion that we are all looking at a large, black, house cat. But some of us are seeing something of much greater proportions.


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## Silage_Man26 (Sep 16, 2008)

For the love of gosh would some body please shoot one of thise black panthers to prove worng 50 years worth of DNA research.... I mean how man hunter say ohh yeah wese got us 3 of them there painters in our lease, grand pappy seens em up here fer years.... and every tom dick and harry has got a buddy, a cousin and 3 neighbors whove seen black panthers in their back yards... But NEVER EVER EVER EVER has anyone ever killed one, caught it in a trap, got a legit face on photo, a track, hair sample or anything from A BLACK PANTHER... Read people i dont care what you say, untill I see one Dead, ill never believe it for a second. 
If you do see one then please kill it, and take it to the musem of natural history and your gonna be the most famous man/woman in the science world for a while!


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

7thSeal said:


> Nosire, bobcats don't have long tails... either fake or mishaps in photograph but looks legit too me..


Very true! Forgot about the long tail when I posted that.
No way that's a house cat. I've held 30+# house cats and they don't look like that. 4-6" between the log and it's belly??? Please buy a new ruler. 
It looks like a 50-60# feline animal. That's about all I can say.......other than get out of the bull butter if you think it's still a house cat.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Just trying to put two and two together...

-Nobody has ever had any physical evidence of a black panther (melanistic mountain lion)

-I don't know of any black panther sightings where mountain lions are the most prevalent (out west).


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> Alright, here is my take on those pics. Stay with me here.
> 
> The fawn is approx. 3 feet behind the tree, the tree is at least 1' in diameter(probably more), the cat's back is approx. 1' in front of the tree. Thats a total of 5'. Right??
> 
> ...


OK, so suddenly the deer behind the one that you've sized up as a fawn is suddenly a fawn also????

Lol, now black house kitty sharpening his claws is able to walk under both....

Try again....


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## cropdustersteve (May 1, 2009)

Interresting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panther#Reports_of_Black_Panthers_in_the_United_States


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

scrapejuice said:


> Alright, here is my take on those pics. Stay with me here.
> 
> The fawn is approx. 3 feet behind the tree, the tree is at least 1' in diameter(probably more), the cat's back is approx. 1' in front of the tree. Thats a total of 5'. Right??
> 
> ...


I would say the fawn it no more than 2 feet from the tree. I agree the tree is about 1'. The cat is right next to the tree....maybe a few inches away tops at the shoulder. No more than 3' and inches total. 

No way that fawn is only 28" at the shoulder either. It's bigger than that. It looks like a 1 1/2 year old deer and even in TN they get bigger than that at that age. It looks like it is closer to ~24" from the deer's belly to the ground. 

That's no house cat


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## cropdustersteve (May 1, 2009)

cropdustersteve said:


> Interresting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panther#Reports_of_Black_Panthers_in_the_United_States


Read about them being introduced into Florida along with their ranges. Wouldn't take long to spread over Southern U.S. .......


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

7thSeal said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627775
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=627777
> 
> OK, click on each one... suddenly a house cat is as tall as a deer...


if you measure, the cat comes up to the belly of the closest deer. which the cat is also a few feet closer to the camera than the deer is, AND the cat is standing on a log which appears to be maybe 6" tall, which IN TURN drops the cat to 6" shorter than it appears. just what i'm seeing anyway.:darkbeer:


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Another thing for size comparison......

The tree the cat is by looks to be around 12". The large fallen tree closer to the further deer looks to be at least twice that size if not 3 times. Even if it's a 24" diameter tree compare that to the distance from the deer's belly and the ground.

I'm not calling it a black jaguar but it's not a house cat


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

here's how big a mountain lion looks compared to a deer about the same distance away.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054420256&postcount=1


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> here's how big a mountain lion looks compared to a deer about the same distance away.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054420256&postcount=1


But what of the cat's age? The mountain lion appears full grown in terms of height anyway


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> here's how big a mountain lion looks compared to a deer about the same distance away.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054420256&postcount=1


yeah....but what about a black panther??????? does anyone have any pictures of one of them??:wink:

great post Bob...that should clear the whole thing up. that rules out the possibilty of it being a black panther. unless....its a dwarf black panther. they are very very rare.:darkbeer:


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

danimal7802 said:


> 6" tall, which IN TURN drops the cat to 6" shorter than it appears. just what i'm seeing anyway.:darkbeer:



Look at his right hind leg.... is it touching the ground?

So the log he is standing on doesn't measure up to the 'fawn' on the other side of the tree ????


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

danimal7802 said:


> yeah....but what about a black panther??????? does anyone have any pictures of one of them??:wink:
> 
> great post Bob...that should clear the whole thing up. that rules out the possibilty of it being a black panther. unless....its a dwarf black panther. they are very very rare.:darkbeer:


I'm not calling it a black panther but that's like saying that a 4th grade human should be the same size as an adult. The pictures don't clear up a single thing.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

RxBowhunter said:


> But what of the cat's age? The mountain lion appears full grown in terms of height anyway


Bigrack said that it was south Texas so I'd say that lion is 100-110 pounds adult I'd think the buck would be a little less than that (unsure of local game size, just know that their deer are small-bodied).


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

*Optical illusions...*

I guarantee this cat's paw is not as big as this guys head.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054049316&postcount=1


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> Bigrack said that it was south Texas so I'd say that lion is 100-110 pounds adult I'd think the buck would be a little less than that (unsure of local game size, just know that their deer are small-bodied).


I would have to agree with those numbers. By comparison that would put the black cat ~50#. Maybe 60 tops. Can anyone show a pic of a 50-60# house cat "on the hoof" so to speak? They usually max out in the mid 30's and look as round as they do long.


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## MKNOX (Jul 8, 2007)

Bobmuley said:


> Bigrack said that it was south Texas so I'd say that lion is 100-110 pounds adult I'd think the buck would be a little less than that (unsure of local game size, just know that their deer are small-bodied).


Bob, I think we should give up on trying to confuse evreyone with actual evidence and facts. It just messes with their own personal realities:wink:


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> I guarantee this cat's paw is not as big as this guys head.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054049316&postcount=1


That's a big healthy cat but yes, it's an optical illusion that makes his paw look big.


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Funny how different folks see the same thing thing totally different?
> 
> I have hunted for 37 years now, and have killed well over 200 big game animals in multiple states and countries. When I look at the picture where you see a 60# plus animal, I see a critter much smaller than the fawn in the 2 deer picture above it.
> 
> ...



I too have hunted over 35 yrs. & have killed many large game animals, I also have worked in & around the woods my whole life. I have seen numerus large cats in the wild , several right here in S. Fl. I know what they look like & this pic. looks like one. It is alot bigger than a house cat. Weather this is a panther or not I cant say , however its obviously large enough to be.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

danimal7802 said:


> dwarf black panther.


_pantherus melanus dwarficus_


I always wanted to name a species.:embara:
:wink:


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

MKNOX said:


> Bob, I think we should give up on trying to confuse evreyone with actual evidence and facts. It just messes with their own personal realities:wink:


I'm not saying what it is, I'm ruling out what it isn't. It isn't a house cat and it isn't a dog. 

Next?


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

RxBowhunter said:


> I'm not saying what it is, I'm ruling out what it isn't. It isn't a house cat and it isn't a dog.
> 
> Next?


So either a cougar or black cat depending on the camera and photo... which I agree would need to be verified before reaching a conclusion.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Just as an update...i have been asking around and i know people can see things and blah blah blah...but have talked to 3 people that say they have seen the same "Thing" in the area...if it's not a black "panther" so be it...BUT!! I know its NOT a DOG!! and NOT a house cat!!! FELINE YES!! but thre is NO way that it could be a dang house cat!!


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

and i am going to have the photo verified and have a biologist from the area look at it tomorrow!! :wink:


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## MKNOX (Jul 8, 2007)

This is a very easy dispute to resolve. Go stand in front of the camera and stand a yard stick on the log in front of the tree.


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

RxBowhunter said:


> Very true! Forgot about the long tail when I posted that.
> No way that's a house cat. I've held 30+# house cats and they don't look like that. 4-6" between the log and it's belly??? Please buy a new ruler.
> It looks like a 50-60# feline animal. That's about all I can say.......other than get out of the bull butter if you think it's still a house cat.


How many inches do you think is between the log and belly? If a black panther did exist I'm guessing a young 50 lb cub would have more ground clearance than this thing does. Just for the record I know you don't think it's a black panther, that was for the fellas that do.


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## BoonerToon (Feb 1, 2008)

maye both deer were dwarf!  dude needs to take some pictures with a yardstick or something that shows a known distance, standing where the deer was and where the UFO (unidentified feline object) was. 

NOTE TO EVERYBODY . . . DON'T BUY CHEAP CAMERAS!


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

Silage_Man26 said:


> For the love of gosh would some body please shoot one of thise black panthers to prove worng 50 years worth of DNA research.... I mean how man hunter say ohh yeah wese got us 3 of them there painters in our lease, grand pappy seens em up here fer years.... and every tom dick and harry has got a buddy, a cousin and 3 neighbors whove seen black panthers in their back yards... But NEVER EVER EVER EVER has anyone ever killed one, caught it in a trap, got a legit face on photo, a track, hair sample or anything from A BLACK PANTHER... Read people i dont care what you say, untill I see one Dead, ill never believe it for a second.
> If you do see one then please kill it, and take it to the musem of natural history and your gonna be the most famous man/woman in the science world for a while!


Bet that up! But then we would get locked up for shooting a protected species or some crapola like that! But if I see one within 40 yards I'll drill it for ya! Hey you think it will jump the string?:tongue:


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

GETMRUTN said:


> Show me a fat house cat thats belly isnt rubbing the ground!!!!
> 
> If a house cat is as big as that then its belly WILL NOT be that high off the ground. The legs are long on this cat and not short. I have three outside cats here in my barn and I will tell you the longest the legs are on either of them are no longer than 6-8 in. You are in serious denial if you think this is a house cat. PLEASE.


Big Ferrell cats usually don't have a big belly like the ones laying around a house all day. Your cat's have 6-8 inch legs, that would account for the low clearance in the photo. 

We need a picture of something else in the spot the cat is standing to see how big or small it really is. A yard stick would do just fine.


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## mobowhunter31 (Nov 12, 2008)

*cat*

I have never saw a house cat with that big of paws or the diameter of tail that it has,


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

QuickReflex said:


> I too have hunted over 35 yrs. & have killed many large game animals, I also have worked in & around the woods my whole life. I have seen numerus large cats in the wild , several right here in S. Fl. I know what they look like & this pic. looks like one. It is alot bigger than a house cat. *Weather this is a panther or not I cant say *, however its obviously large enough to be.


I can....panthers do not come in black, ever. I am not even sure that trail cam pic is of a feline?


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

OK to all "black panther" believers

I am posting a bounty on the elusive Tennessee Black Panther!! $100 to the first person who can deliver me a Tennessee Black Panther dead or alive!!

OH! and I will post bail if you get in trouble for shooting a species that does not exist!!

Not to mention you will be famous at your family reunion for years to come!!:wink:

So there it is boys, go gett'em!!!!!! That Tennessee Black Panther dont' have a chance now that the AT believers are on his trail!!

(tip for killing or catching Black Panthers - put some roadkill out in the vicinity and sit nearby with a spear. Thats how I've always seen them do it on TV.)


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## KYBowhunter (Nov 22, 2005)

Couple of thoughts...

No chance that's a bobcat, bobcats have short stubby tails. 

May be a house cat maybe not, but I'm not totally convinced the pic is even real. Something with the way the back foot looks just does seem right. Also kind of convenient that a guy starts a thread asking whether black panthers exist and then as luck would have it he has a pic. I'm calling BS on the whole thing.


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Here's the REAL question i'm wanting answered...all you non believers SUPPOSE for one second that it's real...and i am within range of the thing...whether with gun or bow...

CAN I SHOOT THE DANG THING!!??

I mean if something doesnt exist...and i HAPPEN to shoot one am i going to jail...cuz i have done some research and found a law passed in 2003 that protectes "Black Panthers"...so if these things don't exist why the heck is there a FEDERAL law protecting them??


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

KYBowhunter said:


> Couple of thoughts...
> 
> No chance that's a bobcat, bobcats have short stubby tails.
> 
> May be a house cat maybe not, but I'm not totally convinced the pic is even real. Something with the way the back foot looks just does seem right. Also kind of convenient that a guy starts a thread asking whether black panthers exist and then as luck would have it he has a pic. I'm calling BS on the whole thing.


pic is legit! i'll let anybody that wants to disect, examine, try to say its not real come look at it...lol...i have nothing to hide or make up here...so anybody wanna try to disprove me on the pictures go right ahead...be my guest...:wink:


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> OK to all "black panther" believers
> 
> I am posting a bounty on the elusive Tennessee Black Panther!! $100 to the first person who can deliver me a Tennessee Black Panther dead or alive!!
> 
> ...


you got a deal scrape juice!! got three free days off work!! So we'll see how it goes down!!


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

RxBowhunter said:


> That's a big healthy cat but yes, it's an optical illusion that makes his paw look big.


Oh.. so objects in the foreground of a picture look disproportionally larger than objects in the background... If only there was a thread on archery talk where this principle could be applied.:embara:


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> OK to all "black panther" believers
> 
> I am posting a bounty on the elusive Tennessee Black Panther!! $100 to the first person who can deliver me a Tennessee Black Panther dead or alive!!
> 
> ...


No reason for me to kill them.... I don't know about TN but when hogs became extremely bad in Texas and began doing damage... well dig into what some of the things were done to straighten it out.


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## moose1915 (Aug 25, 2009)

georgiabuckdan said:


> Things get released and breed. I wouldnt be so quick to try to discredit folks. You have some of them in upstate ny.



no, we don't . really! we got fishers that people THINK are big cats, yellow labs that are big cats, bobcats that are cougars with a bitten off tail etc...we have no solid evidence here either...but pets DO escape-get released...


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## normbates1 (Apr 14, 2008)

I saw a Black Panther once. He was on 12th street in DC, fighting the Man for you and me.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Big Country said:


> I can....panthers do not come in black, ever. *I am not even sure that trail cam pic is of a feline?*


Aw come on Mitch? What else could it possibly be than a feline of some type?

Labradoodle?


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

cmalone1 said:


> Here's the REAL question i'm wanting answered...all you non believers SUPPOSE for one second that it's real...and i am within range of the thing...whether with gun or bow...
> 
> CAN I SHOOT THE DANG THING!!??
> 
> I mean if something doesnt exist...and i HAPPEN to shoot one am i going to jail...cuz i have done some research and found a law passed in 2003 that protectes "Black Panthers"...so if these things don't exist why the heck is there a FEDERAL law protecting them??



Well depends on what species of animal it turns out to be after its dead. If its a cougar, It would have to be during that season. If an exotic that is escaped I would guess you have a right to kill it. Im sure there are some Game Officers here that can answer better.

On a lighter note, I believe some states do have laws that it is illegal to kill a Sasquatch/Bigfoot. So I may be wrong in my first sentence.


GTR


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

cmalone1 said:


> Here's the REAL question i'm wanting answered...all you non believers SUPPOSE for one second that it's real...and i am within range of the thing...whether with gun or bow...
> 
> CAN I SHOOT THE DANG THING!!??
> 
> I mean if something doesnt exist...and i HAPPEN to shoot one am i going to jail...cuz i have done some research and found a law passed in 2003 that protectes "Black Panthers"...so if these things don't exist why the heck is there a FEDERAL law protecting them??


Don't worry, Scrapejuice has you covered.:wink:

The only panthers listed on the USFWS endangered species list are the jaguar (_panthera onca_) and the florida panther (which is really a puma or mountain lion subspecies - _pumas concolor coryi_).


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## PUG (Nov 3, 2002)

*lolol*



Huff/MO said:


> Oh.. so objects in the foreground of a picture look disproportionally larger than objects in the background... If only there was a thread on archery talk where this principle could be applied.:embara:


WHy whatever do you mean?..:wink:

It looks like the corn is tossed out on an old roadbed maybe?...Its looks to me like there is a ledge that the fallen log is sitting on...if so that would only add to the illusion of this series of pics...It really could be put to rest if we could just see a pic of the guy with a yardstick on the fallen log where the animal was walking...The DNR guys arent going to tell him anything more than anybody here already has....


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## spear85 (Aug 18, 2007)

That animal is as long as the deer, whether or not the deer are slightly farther away in the pictures dont matter. You can plainly see that the mystery cat is pretty close to the sae length as a deer. That aint no housecat! Look at the size of the paws on that thing. Like others have alreay said, just look at the size of the tree it is walking directly next to...a house cat would struggle to be a WHOLE lot longer than that tree is wide. Im not saying i know what it is by any means but it sure aint no housecat so we can put that to rest.


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## bowme..2 (Apr 20, 2005)

heartshot88 said:


> Maybe by the year 2024 they will be black.


Caught that too... :wink: 

Crap... I'll be 55!!!


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Just a google pic of a "black panther"


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## cropdustersteve (May 1, 2009)

cropdustersteve said:


> Interresting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panther#Reports_of_Black_Panthers_in_the_United_States


Here it is again. Will explain why the black panther isn't the same size. The species of large cat introduced was a smaller one.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Young "black panther" from google


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

RxBowhunter said:


> Young "black panther" from google


I think that's the problem with the term "black panther"...it makes no taxonomic sense because its used across different species.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> I think that's the problem with the term "black panther"...it makes no taxonomic sense because its used across different species.


I understand. As has been mentioned before, "panther", "mountain lion", "cougar" and "jaguar" are often used interchangeably but erroneously


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## Skewerer (Nov 8, 2006)

This trailcam pic was taken in North Carolina (Catawba County).


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

What was some these black cats most common prey?

If applied to help straighten out a problem (where ever that might be) and some ranchers cattle or what not was damaged by the method.... those being responsible would admit that the cure which was applied existed? 

In our day and age when people are sued for anything.... it doesn't take much common sense to figure this stuff out.


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## ncstatehunter (Jul 11, 2008)

Skewerer said:


> This trailcam pic was taken in North Carolina (Catawba County).


Wow, that's a first for me. I am from Catawba County and have never heard about or seen this picture in my life . Where did you get that pic?


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## Skewerer (Nov 8, 2006)

ncstatehunter said:


> Wow, that's a first for me. I am from Catawba County and have never heard about or seen this picture in my life . Where did you get that pic?


From your trailcam...that I stole....


Here's the link: http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/newcat-pix09/

:beer:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

So how big is a "Black Panther"? All the supporting photos I see show 20-30# (in my opinion-unless the flora in those places suffers gigantism) felines.


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## slim07 (Jul 20, 2009)

Ha, Black Panter in TN? I saw a Black Panter in the rice field between I-5 and HWY 99 a few months back (in CA in case some of you guys dont know)! Thats crazy!!


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## Skewerer (Nov 8, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> So how big is a "Black Panther"? All the supporting photos I see show 20-30# (in my opinion-unless the flora in those places suffers gigantism) felines.


Would a good example of this be what you have done in your avatar?

:tongue:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Skewerer said:


> Would a good example of this be what you have done in your avatar?
> 
> :tongue:


Exactly! Use a 30 pound 5 year old girl as a model and take something that's normal and it suddenly appears very large. While many hunters work their cameras to their advantage for glory shots, the same thing can happen by accident.:thumbs_up


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## ncstatehunter (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks for the link Skewwer, I'll have to look into what part of the county this was taken in and investigate :wink:


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## Skewerer (Nov 8, 2006)

Let us know after you talk to your homeboys. :happy1:


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## Teh Wicked (Jul 30, 2009)

Those things are all over the place in WV...Brown and black, but all the experts say they are not panthers or anything. Just a Mountain Lion with a weird gene causing them to be darker than the others.


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## steeld3_4 (Oct 3, 2005)

I seen what I think was a black panther during the early bow season in NW NC a few years back. I seen something coming under some pine limbs and thought it was a fawn at first, then it turned down the hill and all I saw was a long slick black tail that curled. In the direction it went the squirrels went to barking like crazy. I can't say for sure what it was but it sure wasn't a bobcat or a coyote.


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

Huff/MO said:


> Oh.. so objects in the foreground of a picture look disproportionally larger than objects in the background... If only there was a thread on archery talk where this principle could be applied.:embara:


Yep, just look at any trophy photo of someone holding a deer head or a fish, they hold it way out in front of them to make it look bigger.

At first I thought this thread was funny. In reality, its just plain sad. Now I understand how Obama got elected. 

Get us those measurements of the distances to each of the logs and this will be settled.


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

Olink said:


> Yep, just look at any trophy photo of someone holding a deer head or a fish, they hold it way out in front of them to make it look bigger.
> 
> At first I thought this thread was funny. In reality, its just plain sad. Now I understand how Obama got elected.
> 
> Get us those measurements of the distances to each of the logs and this will be settled.


some people are just plan idiots. Also- you really think Mccain would have the holw world fixed by now-


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

*"if they exist, why haven't we seen trail cam pictures"*

"if they exist, why haven't we seen trail cam pictures" 

here they are, yet you still argue. The op's picture, I believe, is a black panther, or a black mtn lion, or a black jaguar, or a black puma, etc... It's a much larger than a housecat, BIG BLACK CAT. The second photo where the cat is in the field, looks to be a housecat to me. The third photo from cataswaa county or whatever, is once again, a very large black cat. Bigger than a housecat. If I save it up for a few days, I can piss and hit the national forest from my back door here in AR. I swear on my life that one night about 8 or 9 years ago. I walked onto my balcony in the spring time to listen for deer feeding down below my house (you can hear them walking on a crisp night) and all the sudden a very loud scream,cry, whatever you want to call it busted out through the night about 150 yards from my house back in the forest. I know it was a cat, a big one. I know what house cats sound like when they're fighting, it sounds like a baby crying. I called the cops one time b/c I thought there was a baby crying in a field beside one of our old houses, turns out it was two tom cats fighting. This was so much louder it was even close to the same. I've never seen a black pan,uma,uar,lion but or any color one for that matter, but i'm not gonna say there not here. I've never seen a 180+ deer here in AR either but several people kill them every year.


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

moose1915 said:


> no, we don't . really! we got fishers that people THINK are big cats,


Fishers:



















I've only seen fishers in zoos and as museum specimens and they didn't look big enough to be confused with a jaguar OR a cougar, but is there any possibility of that picture being a fisher?


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

asa_low12 said:


> "if they exist, why haven't we seen trail cam pictures"
> 
> I've never seen a black pan,uma,uar,lion but or any color one for that matter, but i'm not gonna say there not here. * I've never seen a 180+ deer here in AR either but several people kill them every year*.


Very well said. I have no doubt a few of these pics are real and don't see what these people have to gain by trying to falsify these pics.



NM_HighPlains said:


> Fishers:
> 
> I've only seen fishers in zoos and as museum specimens and they didn't look big enough to be confused with a jaguar OR a cougar, but is there any possibility of that picture being a fisher?


absolutely no. Unless i missed one of the pictures


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

I don't see any similiarities...


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## b_vanfossen (Dec 5, 2008)

b_vanfossen said:


> some people are just plan idiots. Also- you really think McCain would have the whole world fixed by now-


I apologize for my remark.












pretty amazing they were once native to South US. (melanistic)


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

If nothing else, at least this thread is good for some really cool big cat pictures.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

I see that some of us still refuse to accept reality.:tongue:

Going bigfoot hunting with Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis........have fun boys.:darkbeer:


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## Hossii (Mar 5, 2006)

*Probably a Fisher Cat you heard*



asa_low12 said:


> "if they exist, why haven't we seen trail cam pictures"
> 
> here they are, yet you still argue. The op's picture, I believe, is a black panther, or a black mtn lion, or a black jaguar, or a black puma, etc... It's a much larger than a housecat, BIG BLACK CAT. The second photo where the cat is in the field, looks to be a housecat to me. The third photo from cataswaa county or whatever, is once again, a very large black cat. Bigger than a housecat. If I save it up for a few days, I can piss and hit the national forest from my back door here in AR. I swear on my life that one night about 8 or 9 years ago. I walked onto my balcony in the spring time to listen for deer feeding down below my house (you can hear them walking on a crisp night) and all the sudden a very loud scream,cry, whatever you want to call it busted out through the night about 150 yards from my house back in the forest. I know it was a cat, a big one. I know what house cats sound like when they're fighting, it sounds like a baby crying. I called the cops one time b/c I thought there was a baby crying in a field beside one of our old houses, turns out it was two tom cats fighting. This was so much louder it was even close to the same. I've never seen a black pan,uma,uar,lion but or any color one for that matter, but i'm not gonna say there not here. I've never seen a 180+ deer here in AR either but several people kill them every year.


Fisher cats sound just like a baby crying. 
http://fishercatscreech.com/fisher-cat-sound-and-audio/


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## CREEKER (May 23, 2006)

Alright here goes, my name's Creeker (Hello Creeker!) and uh I've seen a black panther,or what I thought was one in the spring of 1990 going up an old tram road near my home my wife was there and saw it as well,big,long feline looking critter,black in color,long tail.I've also heard cats on two different occasions while squirrel hunting,may have been bobcats,but one sounded pretty deep for a bobcat. Like I said maybe not a black panther per say, but a large dark colored feline,and it wasn't no house cat. What I'm surprised the most by in this thread is the absolutness (is that a word?) of some of the posters that black panthers or some species of large black/dark colored cats,not house cats, don't exist, there's just too much remote area out there to be 100% certain that these animals or some other species of large dark cat doesn't exist.One of the posters eluded to the notion earlier that we don't find any hides or traces of them,to which I can say that I live in black bear country and we have a pretty good population of bears here and I can go further to say that I've never came up on a black bear carcass in the woods (25-30 years)and I would say that black bears would have a much higher population then some large member of the cat family.JMO.


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## Bowhuntr64 (Aug 6, 2007)

As someone said about 50 posts ago on this thread, this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read! Keep it coming!:tongue:


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

I didnt think it would be this interesting either!! But i like it!!


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

I guess that is corn on the ground. Compare the pieces of corn to the paw size.:beer:








cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

Yea, these cat threads are always a good read.

My opinion is never say never when dealing with nature.






Bowhuntr64 said:


> As someone said about 50 posts ago on this thread, this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read! Keep it coming!:tongue:


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Big Country said:


> I see that some of us still refuse to accept reality.:tongue:
> 
> Going bigfoot hunting with Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis........have fun boys.:darkbeer:


 Do you believe in Jesus? 

GTR


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

Here's some fun reading. Take it or leave it, buy it or not. Just goes to show that this is certainly not a new debate.

1) From the crypto guys:


> No known, recognized, or verified forms of black or melanistic pumas, cougars, mountain lion, or whatever you want to call them are known from North America. Needless to say, a find of a dead black puma, i.e. mountain lion, or a classic black panther, i.e. melanistic leopard (that is not a former captive) verified as being a native of North America would be a remarkable cryptozoological discovery.


LINK

2) Molecular Genetics and Evolution of Melanism in the Cat Family:


> The cladogram indicates evolutionary relationships of species with melanistic forms included in this study; thick branches on the tree indicate major lineages in the Felidae [19]. Only unrelated individuals from each species were included. The number of melanistic individuals assayed is given in parentheses (see asterisk). Melanistic individuals include black domestic cats from Botswana (n = 1), Brazil (n = 10), Israel (n = 5), Mongolia (n = 4), and USA (n = 37) (see double asterisk); USA black cats include random-bred individuals as well as representatives of the following breeds: Bombay, Maine ****, Norwegian Forest Cat, Cornish Rex, Turkish Van, and Sphynx. The other Felidae include one or two individuals from each of the following cat species: black-footed cat (Felis nigripes), sand cat (Felis margarita), lion (Panthera leo), tiger (Panthera tigris), snow leopard (Panthera uncia), clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa), ocelot (Leopardus pardalis), puma (Puma concolor), cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus), leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis), caracal (Caracal caracal), African golden cat (Profelis aurata), and bobcat (Lynx rufus) (see triple asterisk). f [Δ2] represents the frequency of the ASIP-Δ2 allele in each species; the domestic cat frequency was calculated exclusively from the nonmelanistic genotype frequencies, assuming Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium.


From: LINK to original Check it out and study the figures.

3) See Wild Cats of the World

4)


> The "Cherokee Cougar" taxidermy is claimed to be a black puma. The 1.87m (6' 2") big cat is variously claimed to have been shot in Tennessee or Montana and variously claimed to be genuine, a hoax (tawny puma dyed black) or a hybrid. Tennessee has a tradition of "black panther" sightings. DNA testing by East Tennessee State University's Zoology Dept appears to confirm it as a puma and that hairs tested were not dyed, however there are no definitive results confirming it as a melanistic individual. From it appears solid black although the available photograph appears mahogany brown. Melanism is recessive in leopards, but an incomplete dominant in jaguars. Mounts of melanistic leopards appear more prone to fading to dark brown than those of black jaguars. Black domestic cats (also a recessive mutation) are also prone to "rusting" of the fur. This suggest that if genuine, the black puma taxidermy may be a recessive mutation.


LINK










5)


> Melanism is most common in jaguars (Panthera onca) - where it is due to a dominant gene mutation - and leopards (Panthera pardus) - where it is due to a recessive gene mutation. .... There are no authenticated cases of truly melanistic pumas. Black pumas have been reported in Kentucky, one of which had a paler belly. There have also been reports of glossy black pumas from Kansas and eastern Nebraska. These are known as the North American Black Panther (NABP) and are cryptozoological animals. However no one has ever taken a picture of a black puma, no breeder in the world has ever been able to produce one, and no hunter has ever shot one. All breeders of pumas in the world agree that the 'Black Puma' is nothing more than a myth. This is probably due to most people being inexperienced in what different breeds of cats actually look like and mistaking one breed for another.


http://en.allexperts.com/e/b/bl/black_panther.htm


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## team_realtree (Mar 17, 2009)

nojreyd said:


> I saw a purple deer behind my house and I collected some droppings from the same field that i saw the purple deer and had them tested and it was in fact a deer!
> 
> They have footprints from bigfoot too...


mountain lions are now confirmed to reside in ontario smart ass


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

*More fun*



> Interesting information comes from Bruce Stanley Wright, a Canadian wildlife biologist and former forest ranger from New Brunswick on the north-east coast of America. He made an in-depth study of melanism in pumas, eliminating reports of night sightings. There were still day time reports of "jet-black all over" and "short shiny black hair on its body and tail" from Nova Scotia, also in the north-east. At 3pm "quite definitely black" was reported, as well as "black as midnight" in Fredericton in 1970. There was a sooty or slate grey specimen from Florida, exhibited in the American museum of Natural History, but a black specimen was shot in south America, described as having the whole body, sides and tail a glossy black, with inner surfaces shaded to a stone grey.
> 
> " I�d bet that small, cryptic and elusive puma populations survive in the East, where they were once common, and in Britain and Australia where they have been introduced, and that, due to a genetic reason we don�t yet understand, some individuals are of a black colour phase."


Big Cats in Britain!

Picture in above post that got deleted:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GTR said:


> Do you believe in Jesus?
> 
> GTR


Completely different situation. We have all kinds of proof that cougars exist, and we have all kinds of proof that cougars cannot be black.

Conversely, we have ZERO proof of any black cougars, and in fact, most normal color phase pictures from areas where they do not have breeding populations are easily proven to NOT be cougars.

The best footage I have seen to date of a black mountain lion was from West Virginia. It sure looked like a black cougar to me! Once a video specialist was brought in, he easily determined the size of the critter in question, and explained his method for making the determination. What looked for all the world like a 150lb. cat, ended up being 24.92" long from the tip of it`s nose to it`s butt. After measuring my daughters 15lb. tomcat at 21.5", I would estimate the footage was of an 18lb. housecat.:tongue:

And to answer your question.........Yes I do. But I do not claim to see him behind every tree in the forest.:wink:


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Completely different situation. We have all kinds of proof that cougars exist, and we have all kinds of proof that cougars cannot be black.
> 
> Conversely, we have ZERO proof of any black cougars, and in fact, most normal color phase pictures from areas where they do not have breeding populations are easily proven to NOT be cougars.
> 
> ...


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

QuickReflex said:


> Big Country said:
> 
> 
> > Completely different situation. We have all kinds of proof that cougars exist, and we have all kinds of proof that cougars cannot be black.
> ...


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

Flatfoot said:


> Here's one to look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


Looks like a DAMNED big cat to me. 



letemgrow said:


> This is usually what happens if someone shoots at the "black panther"
> 
> "my uncle said he saw a panther after about 30﻿ minutes they make a 400 yard shot to find out it was a 36 pound house cat "


I'd believe that, a Maine **** Cat is one of the LARGEST on the domestic cat breeds, and can be quite large. 


cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...


That pic is believable to me, then again, I've also seen what looked like a MINIATURE black panther type cat on a couple of different occasions. I didn't think it was a cougar/mountain lion/panther as the sized wasn't right, but seeing a BLACK cat with a LONG tail stalking through the woods is something that gets your attention, even if it's only maybe a 35-40# animal, but it's not something you see everyday, so it stands out in your mind. :noidea: :confused3:


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

For all those that believe this is a real, but not full grown approx. 100 lb. "panther" of some sort. And are under the impression and belief that it is/may be released pet. Then answer this:

If it were a pet at one time. Then it would most likely not have a tremendous fear of people. Thus making it much easier to hunt and kill than say a wild born animal. As most have said it isn't big enough to be an adult, so how is this juvenile cat able to appear to be eating so well (hint: notice the large sagging belly as some have indicated, which is generally only present on older members of any species unless fed very well, not the condition of what a juvenile animal ((especially one that once was a pet and fed by humans)) would be able to sustain in the wild. One final thing would be the lack of sign. Any type of sign left behind. I would think you would be able to see tracks, fecal, or even some type of kill remains if this animal is able to appear so well fed. And if it is being fed/eating as well as the picture would indicate, why would it even be venturing very far.

Thus far we basically have 3 choices. So instead of attempting to determine what it is, lets rather approach it as what its not.

1) As far as it not being a *house cat *the only arguement so far is it appears too large. However, attempting to make a 3 dimensional picture/object from a 2 dimensional object(picture) will almost certainly create error to some degree.

2)As far as it not being a "*wild black panther*" of some sort, well applying some rational here would at least lead you to believe this is probably not the most likely choice of the three. There has never been a "black puma", "black mountain lion" documented that I am aware of. This being of the species found in North America. As far as it being a Jaguar, yes they are found to be black, but are only sparsly found as far north as S. California and primarily in S. America (just very unlikely one came to TN). As for being a leopard(don't believe there was ever a black one documented), South Africa and A few parts of Asia around India are the only places they are found(so virtually impossible that one made it half way around the world to TN). Not saying it is impossible that a truly wild black panther is in TN, just that it is VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY (maybe a few more VERYs') unlikely. You probably have a better chance of winning the Powerball 2 times back to back.

3)Finally, the possibility of it being a *"once a pet, now a wild black panther"* is far more likely than choice #2 I think we could all agree. However I believe, as most of us are hunters and can see the rational I listed in the beginning of this post, that this is not a very likely possibility either.

My Conclusion: other than what you *think* you see in the picture. Help me to understand how you believers are coming to the conclusion that what is in this picture is in fact a "black panther". Convince me, I'm all ears.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

one more possibility, as rediculous as it may sound must still be included as a possibility.

Someone PETA member has wrestled down a normal colored mountain lion and physically dyed every inch of it black. In the hopes it would walk in front of one of the trailcams of a AT member and the member would post it on here in the Bowhunter forum, to attempt to divide the unity we have as AT bowhunters.

I know...I know.....its seems far fetched, but not impossible!!

(sorry I just can't help it, its the joking side of me coming out!!)


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

Hossii said:


> Fisher cats sound just like a baby crying.
> http://fishercatscreech.com/fisher-cat-sound-and-audio/


It wasn't a da fisher cat. I've never heard of a fisher cat before this thread. If you'll read closer it sounded nothing like a baby crying. It was wayy louder like a loud pissed off womans scream.


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## wrdaniel8 (Jun 30, 2009)

I've isolated the receptor compounds in your brain to show only the mystery cat's size and give some more detail to its physiology. Notice the thick tail, from tip to tush.








This is a cougar, mountain lion, panther, whatever you want to call it. Very similar in shape to the mystery kitty.








Here is a sample of a domesticated cat. Notice the small paws and nearly pointed tail, lacking any substance at all. This animal is dainty, not powerfully built like the one above.








I have a question, would those deer have been spooked by a house cat? I doubt it, this buck looks to get to second base with this one.








I don't know what it is, but I do know that it's big, black, and no house cat. Whether it's an exotic animal that escaped or was released, or a native isn't something any of us can begin to debate.


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## wrdaniel8 (Jun 30, 2009)

And I agree about never saying never in nature... haven't you seen Jurassic Park? Female dinosaurs have babies!


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

QuickReflex said:


> Some of you guys up north have got some huge house cats.
> 
> The cat in the photo has got to weigh 60# at least. Its as big as a dog, House cat my ***** , I thought you guys were hunters you cant distinguish the difference between a house cat & a Large cat. Im starting to wonder about you all.
> 
> Look at the log & the base of the tree how would a house cats body block that much of a tree that size. that trees gotta be 24" to 30" . CK out the thickness if his tail. that isnt no house cat just to big.


That tree aint 24-30 inch tree.....and the guy knows that Look at the smaller deer standing BEHIND the tree. Its a lot bigger and taller than the cat pictured IN FRONT OF THE TREE. Move that deer to the same spot as the cat and it would be visually even BIGGER than it was in the background. Its a 15 pound housecat walking down a 10 inch log in front of a 12 inch tree....I dont dispute that there are Mt Lions in a lot of places. But this aint one of em.....I think this guystarted this thread as a fun converstaion piece and is laughing his Arse off at us.....keep it going.


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## Lost archer (May 22, 2004)

QuickReflex said:


> Some of you guys up north have got some huge house cats.
> 
> The cat in the photo has got to weigh 60# at least. Its as big as a dog, House cat my ***** , I thought you guys were hunters you cant distinguish the difference between a house cat & a Large cat. Im starting to wonder about you all.
> 
> Look at the log & the base of the tree how would a house cats body block that much of a tree that size. that trees gotta be 24" to 30" . CK out the thickness if his tail. that isnt no house cat just to big.


+1


ain't no house cat for sure


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## Martial Archer (Jun 8, 2003)

Black panthers in TN  What a maroon

And that youtube vid of the black cat stalking the buck is counterfeit as a mofo. That cat may be big, but it sure ain't stalking that buck. Looks to be responding to an animal handler if you ask me.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Bobmuley said:


> Just trying to put two and two together...
> 
> -Nobody has ever had any physical evidence of a black panther (melanistic mountain lion)
> 
> -I don't know of any black panther sightings where mountain lions are the most prevalent (out west).




I didnt see this combined photo....guys- who shoots a lot of 3D?? That fawn may be 3-4 yards maybe even 5 to 6 behind that tree. So the cat appears big in front of the tree. Come on - its a danged well fed house cat. I bored now....on to getting ready for elk hunting....


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Also the log that cat is walking on is elevated a bit above the forest floor where the tree goes into ground....kind of like a small terrace which adds to the effect. That cat may not even be a few inches from that tree... house cat.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

scrapejuice said:


> For all those that believe this is a real, but not full grown approx. 100 lb. "panther" of some sort. And are under the impression and belief that it is/may be released pet. Then answer this:
> 
> If it were a pet at one time. Then it would most likely not have a tremendous fear of people. Thus making it much easier to hunt and kill than say a wild born animal. As most have said it isn't big enough to be an adult, so how is this juvenile cat able to appear to be eating so well (hint: notice the large sagging belly as some have indicated, which is generally only present on older members of any species unless fed very well, not the condition of what a juvenile animal ((especially one that once was a pet and fed by humans)) would be able to sustain in the wild. One final thing would be the lack of sign. Any type of sign left behind. I would think you would be able to see tracks, fecal, or even some type of kill remains if this animal is able to appear so well fed. And if it is being fed/eating as well as the picture would indicate, why would it even be venturing very far.
> 
> ...


Anyone willing to offer a logical explanation???


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

UTECRedNk said:


> Also the log that cat is walking on is elevated a bit above the forest floor where the tree goes into ground....kind of like a small terrace which adds to the effect. That cat may not even be a few inches from that tree... house cat.


And one more piece of food for thought...

Lets say for grins the cat is 3 to 5 feet in front of the tree. Very likely 

and the deer is 3-4 yards behind tree.....very likely

walla...the Chuck Adams trophy-- "I just killed a T Rex with antlers effect"


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> and the member would post it on here in the Bowhunter forum, to attempt to divide the unity we have as AT bowhunters.


We're not divided, we all agree its a cat, just can't decide how big of a cat. 

I think I'm agreeing with the advice someone mentioned of having the OP stand by the tree with a yard stick and get a shot of it. I'm guessing we would then argue over whether its a real yard stick. :lol:


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

I think I just figured out who this dude is who posted this thread. The same guy who had bigfoot's remains on ice a while back.... and the believers are the same guys who got really excited about that ice chest!

I think this guy is loving this post. :wink:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Completely different situation. We have all kinds of proof that cougars exist, and we have all kinds of proof that cougars cannot be black.
> 
> Conversely, we have ZERO proof of any black cougars, and in fact, most normal color phase pictures from areas where they do not have breeding populations are easily proven to NOT be cougars.
> 
> ...


I believe you have made more post in this thread than anyone, kind of funny as you continue to state the same Bull chit. Are Cougars some how exempt from the simple mutation that occurs in all other animals ? Nope they are not. So whether there is a Black Cougar alive in the world today or not there will be at some time. Simple facts that your continued BS can't change..

Anyone who really wants to learn something about this can do simple Internet searches on the subject. Melanism and Color inheritance and genetics will get you started. Just as Hypomelanism (Albino), Leucism(white) are one end of the spectrum Melanistic or melanism are the other and they occur in all animals. Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Martial Archer said:


> Black panthers in TN  What a maroon
> 
> And that youtube vid of the black cat stalking the buck is counterfeit as a mofo. That cat may be big, but it sure ain't stalking that buck. Looks to be responding to an animal handler if you ask me.



LMAO hey if you are going to try and insult someone, try calling them something other than a color LMAO what a Mor----------------


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## Martial Archer (Jun 8, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> LMAO hey if you are going to try and insult someone, try calling them something other than a color LMAO what a Mor----------------


Maroon, in this instance, being a reference to the old Bugs Bunny cartoons where Bugs frequently referred to idiots by saying "What a Maroon". (or at least that is how I remember it)


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

Martial Archer said:


> Maroon, in this instance, being a reference to the old Bugs Bunny cartoons where Bugs frequently referred to idiots by saying "What a Maroon". (or at least that is how I remember it)


I got it.:wink:


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

I was hoping this thread would get brought back to life. 

Try to refrain from name calling and personal attacks guys. Keep the discussion civil please.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Measure the trees in the photo. Simple to do, but the OP won't do it.  It would ruin his fun.

That tree next to the kitty is no 24-30 inches in diameter. I am going to say 8-10 inches. LOL! Measure the log on the ground the kitty was walking on. Easy to do and would prove what I know. 

You guys make me laugh.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Look at the size of the leaves next to the cat. We all know how big those leaves are. 

You believers are just seeing what you want to see instead of using your powers of observation.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> I believe you have made more post in this thread than anyone, kind of funny as you continue to state the same Bull chit. *Are Cougars some how exempt from the simple mutation that occurs in all other animals ?*Yes
> Nope they are not. So whether there is a Black Cougar alive in the world today or not there will be at some time. Simple facts that your continued BS can't change..
> 
> Anyone who really wants to learn something about this can do simple Internet searches on the subject. Melanism and Color inheritance and genetics will get you started. Just as Hypomelanism (Albino), Leucism(white) are one end of the spectrum Melanistic or melanism are the other and they occur in all animals. Randy


You seem to have issues with debating/discussion?

I am not sure why you are having a problem understanding that mountain lions do not possess the gene responsible for hypermelanoma?

I am nowhere near the only member to state that FACT on this thread.

If you want to believe in fairytales, that is your right.....just do not expect claims that are easily debunked to go unchecked.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

The Swami said:


> Look at the size of the leaves next to the cat. We all know how big those leaves are.
> 
> You believers are just seeing what you want to see instead of using your powers of observation.


Don`t think some Idaho spottie is gonna come in here and ruin a perfectly good bigfoot convention.:wink:


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

The Swami said:


> Measure the trees in the photo. Simple to do, but the OP won't do it.  It would ruin his fun.
> 
> That tree next to the kitty is no 24-30 inches in diameter. I am going to say 8-10 inches. LOL! Measure the log on the ground the kitty was walking on. Easy to do and would prove what I know.
> 
> You guys make me laugh.


Another vote here for measurements.......and a photo with a yardstick. 
I roughly agree about the size of the tree. I was thinking ~12"
I'm thinking the log the cat is walking on is 6-8" and the large log closer to the deer at ~24-30".

I can't say I think it's a black panther but it shares the posture of one (especially it's backline, hips and tail *see post #170*) and I don't believe it's a house cat.


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## drawforce (Feb 25, 2003)

*cougar*

google cougars in tennessee, some interesting info. there.


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## mxdkfreestyle13 (Sep 15, 2006)

the pic from the game cam is fake. the "black cat" was put in, it looks like it was done in the paint program, no detail to it yet you can see the hair on the deer, even if it were a bear you would see reflections on it, its a fake


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

UTECRedNk said:


> That tree aint 24-30 inch tree.....and the guy knows that Look at the smaller deer standing BEHIND the tree. Its a lot bigger and taller than the cat pictured IN FRONT OF THE TREE. Move that deer to the same spot as the cat and it would be visually even BIGGER than it was in the background. Its a 15 pound housecat walking down a 10 inch log in front of a 12 inch tree....I dont dispute that there are Mt Lions in a lot of places. But this aint one of em.....I think this guystarted this thread as a fun converstaion piece and is laughing his Arse off at us.....keep it going.


You take a tape & wrap around the circumfrence of that tree Ill bet you it goes at least 24" now if you cut it down & measure arcoss the stump it would be about 14" to 16" & that "small deer" in the background is standing
further back & also it in foliage that makes it look smaller than it really is.
Id say a 1 1/2 yr old deer in that country would have to weigh about 125# at least. Now Im not saying this is an elusive black panther nor am I saying this pic is real all Im saying is this IS NOT a house cat & it apppears to be black or a shade of that. I dont belive these so called biologist that test 1out of 500 cats to come to some conclsion , most couldnt find thier butts in the dark, so why would I belive them. Show me proof they dont exist. that goes for you to big country.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> You seem to have issues with debating/discussion?
> 
> I am not sure why you are having a problem understanding that mountain lions do not possess the gene responsible for hypermelanoma?
> 
> ...


I don't think any animal carries the gene for Hyper Cancer IE 'hypermelanoma' LMAO, this is the second or third time this has been pointed out to you..... Just like the rest of your post your last one is full of stuff you make up as you go. I'll say it again all animal can produce the mutation and yes Cougars are animals and thus can be Melanistic . Like Hypomelanstic (Albino) or Xanthic or Axanthic ETC this is a mutation some mutations are recessive genes , some dominate genes and some co dominate ETC . Take Albino, other than a spontaneous mutation to get an Albino it takes the breeding of two hets , a het to an albino or two albinos. Melanism can occur in any animal be it a bird , deer, snake what have you, all animals can produce the mutation. Do a simple search and you'll find all kinds of real info.

I have no problem with debate but using facts to support your argument would be nice. The simple fact is you are wrong, it is just as possible for a Cougar to be black as say a squirrel . Sorry if this upsets you but so far you haven't been right about much other than your name. Facts are facts and you saying the possible is impossible is just BS..

Whether the animal in the game cam photo is a Melanistic cougar or not I don't know but that cougars like any other animal can produce a melanistic offspring is a fact that I do know. The only question in this thread is if that is a Cougar in the photo, what ever it is appears to be black. Randy


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

mxdkfreestyle13 said:


> the pic from the game cam is fake. the "black cat" was put in, it looks like it was done in the paint program, no detail to it yet you can see the hair on the deer, even if it were a bear you would see reflections on it, its a fake


Oh great!!, now you've went and done it. Your about to ruin a perfectly good mystical creature thread!!

Can't you see, those of us that keep coming back to this thread......well.....its like a bad addiction to a drug. We just can't help to read what kind of non-sense is going to pop up next on here.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

mxdkfreestyle13 said:


> the pic from the game cam is fake. the "black cat" was put in, it looks like it was done in the paint program, no detail to it yet you can see the hair on the deer, even if it were a bear you would see reflections on it, its a fake



Well I wouldn't say that I'm one hundred percent sure it isn't a fake but if you blow the picture up(simple to do) you can see that the pixels match with the rest of the photo. So if it is a fake it is a very very very good one. Randy


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

RxBowhunter said:


> *I was hoping this thread would get brought back to life.*
> 
> Try to refrain from name calling and personal attacks guys. Keep the discussion civil please.


I can't honestly see where it ever even showed signs of dying!!! Same as the "TN black panther", you can't kill it. It'll live forever!!!!!!:wink:


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## bill_collector (Jul 5, 2009)

Id say a 1 1/2 yr old deer in that country would have to weigh about 125# at least. Qoute from above.


The 1 1/2 yr old deer where I live would be around 70 to 80 pounds. Very very seldom do we kill a doe that goes 125 no matter how old she is. I do believe that is not a house cat though. I think some of the posts above that are guessing that tree's size is way to small.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> I don't think any animal carries the gene for Hyper Cancer IE 'hypermelanoma' LMAO, this is the second or third time this has been pointed out to you..... Just like the rest of your post your last one is full of stuff you make up as you go. I'll say it again all animal can produce the mutation and yes Cougars are animals and thus can be Melanistic . Like Hypomelanstic (Albino) or Xanthic or Axanthic ETC this is a mutation some mutations are recessive genes , some dominate genes and some co dominate ETC . Take Albino, other than a spontaneous mutation to get an Albino it takes the breeding of two hets , a het to an albino or two albinos. Melanism can occur in any animal be it a bird , deer, snake what have you, all animals can produce the mutation. Do a simple search and you'll find all kinds of real info.
> 
> I have no problem with debate but using facts to support your argument would be nice. The simple fact is you are wrong, it is just as possible for a Cougar to be black as say a squirrel . Sorry if this upsets you but so far you haven't been right about much other than your name. Facts are facts and you saying the possible is impossible is just BS..
> 
> Whether the animal in the game cam photo is a Melanistic cougar or not I don't know but that cougars like any other animal can produce a melanistic offspring is a fact that I do know. The only question in this thread is if that is a Cougar in the photo, what ever it is appears to be black. Randy



Randy, why do you persist? You will not win a wordsmith war with me, and you cannot win by following your current path.

There has NEVER been a black cougar. Genetically it is impossible. This is not a fairytale, it is scientific fact.

Please provide on legitimate piece of scientific data that even mildly suggests a cougar can be black?

I agree that whatever is in that picture appears to be black, and that observation alone makes it very easy for me to know that it cannot be a cougar.

Why is it that the same folks who always see moutain lions where they do not exist, are also the same folks who believe that insurance companies stock coyotes, and DNR`s stock cougars?


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

I feel so strongly about the TN black panther, I had to put it in my user title!!


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

scrapejuice said:


> I can't honestly see where it ever even showed signs of dying!!! Same as the "TN black panther", you can't kill it. It'll live forever!!!!!!:wink:


:lol: I checked it this morning around 6am. The last post at that time was around 1230am. It was still alive but the rest of us were catching zzzzzz's


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## Rack Tracker (Jul 8, 2005)

It's always fun to set up the 3d course where this one is visible from the road....


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## warbird51 (Aug 10, 2008)

i've seen some in michigan. they usually have on acorn or o6ama tee shirts. and can be quite vocal. ha-ha....but seriously they have on acorn shirts. we have had Cougar citings in the U.P. though. yes i carry..........:darkbeer:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Randy, why do you persist? You will not win a wordsmith war with me, and you cannot win by following your current path.
> 
> There has NEVER been a black cougar. Genetically it is impossible. This is not a fairytale, it is scientific fact.
> 
> ...


And this from the guy who says Hyper Cancer LOL so just where is this proof that Cougars of all animals are the only ones who can't produce the mutation? you do understand the word mutation in this context don't you? 

The proof that animals can produce color mutations is everywhere, open your eyes or do a simple simple search. I do wonder why you keep making so many post in this thread repeating the same dis information. Is it that you can't admit you are wrong or what? Simple way to deal with it is to stop posting and hope everyone forgets your post in this thread the next time you offer up your facts.

Wordsmith War-- does that mean making up crap and typing it here? if that is the case you win hands down. Is that what you got was it an MS in ?. Keep on posting all you want but anyone who bothers to do the tiniest bit of research knows you're full of it and after the two or three Hyper Cancer remarks anyone half way intelligent knows your full of it. You simply don't know what you are talking about. Far be it for me to try and stop you from showing the folks here what you don't know..

Awaiting your next bout of wisdom lol.. Randy


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## wrdaniel8 (Jun 30, 2009)

drawforce said:


> google cougars in tennessee, some interesting info. there.


i found this one interesting...

http://www.dateacougar.com/singles/tennessee-cougar


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

wrdaniel8 said:


> i found this one interesting...
> 
> http://www.dateacougar.com/singles/tennessee-cougar


Now that is some useful information my friend!!!:darkbeer:

I knew something GOOD would come out of this thread if I just hung around long enough!!!!:wink:

and WHO said there aren't any cougars in TN???


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

wrdaniel8 said:


> i found this one interesting...
> 
> http://www.dateacougar.com/singles/tennessee-cougar


That will get expensive and even cost a marriage I'm sure.... :lol:


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## BoonerToon (Feb 1, 2008)

Why are some of yall so persistent on making sure noone believes these things exist? dude posts up a cool picture and is immediately flamed! I mean seriously if someone is gonna fake a picture just to post it on here. . . thats just queer, and i dont think thats what happened. I do wish that the OP would hurry up and get his CSI kit (yardstick) out and do some simple measurements. i could care less about the color, id just like to know how big this thing actually is!

sometimes i think AT should give out a "Big Spoon Award" for the one who stirs up the most crap each week, i swear, some of yall just like to argue. . .


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

cmalone1 said:


> and i am going to have the photo verified and have a biologist from the area look at it tomorrow!! :wink:


well?


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> well?


Prolly got attacked by a black panther


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

I wasn't aware that some mammals couldn't even have a chance to have this mutation of color. I would really like for someone to post the scientific data that shows that somehwere down the line a black cougar could never ever happen.

I understand they have never documented one.

Could someone please post a link to a site ? I would like to read this proven genetics info myself.

Thanks


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

Looney Bin said:


> I wasn't aware that some mammals couldn't even have a chance to have this mutation of color. I would really like for someone to post the scientific data that shows that somehwere down the line a black cougar could never ever happen.
> 
> I understand they have never documented one.
> 
> ...


I posted a pretty good link up above if anyone cares to go wade thru it. However, the phrase "somewhere down the line...could never ever happen" is impossible to "prove". All science can do is give you a probability. And since we ARE dealing with a "mutation" (although I think several of you are tossing that term around kind of willy-nilly), sure it _could _happen. If you're an evolutionist, then you believe that you and everything else came from single-celled goo, all thanks to natural selection working on random mutations. So, sure, "somewhere down the line" cougars could also sprout wings so that they could fly around chasing aerial pigs. I'm not holding my breath. 

I can buy the possibility that somewhere, somehow, there is *a* black cougar (_Puma concolor_). The strange thing, though, is that there are SO MANY reported, even in places where there aren't that many regular colored ones reported. As I quoted up above, maybe there IS a localized pocket population of inbred black cougars in the East. Which, BTW, don't get run over by cars, don't get treed by dogs, don't get shot, don't get trapped by fur trappers, and so on. Even in places where there aren't that many cougars (.ie Everglades), they get trapped, shot, treed, and so on. I'm having a HARD time believing that there are black jaguars running around in mid-TN.

And a photograph? I'm sorry to say that in this digital age, a photograph is not very good "proof". Everyone's seen the one of the cougar following the deer, right? And then the gal leaning on the tree... I do think that the OP got a picture of something, and it does indeed look cougar-ish, but just for fun, did anyone else besides me blow the picture up for a better look? In just about any court, you really need multiple lines of evidence. A picture alone won't do it. You need the picture, a fur, a track, some scat, a kill...several things. 

And remember, as I saw way up above, I saw pileated woodpeckers here in NM and it was discounted by NMDGF Non-Game, _in spite_ of the fact that I'm a) a peer-journal published biologist, b) have lived in southeast TX where pileateds are common (so we're not even dealing with something like a black cougar which is NOT common anyway you slice it), c) looked at them very carefully to determine that they were NOT ivory-bills, d) a recognized raptor expert (published, consulted with, etc), e) my boss at the time also saw them but not at the same time, and f) I watched them for several hours (I didn't realize it was such a big deal until I looked up the range). I only had 1 piece of evidence- visual sighting- and it wasn't good enough. Again, I can definitely sympathize, but the fact is, you gotta have multiple lines of evidence. Get those and you'll be a hero.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Looney Bin said:


> I wasn't aware that some mammals couldn't even have a chance to have this mutation of color. I would really like for someone to post the scientific data that shows that somehwere down the line a black cougar could never ever happen.
> 
> I understand they have never documented one.
> 
> ...



As far as I know there is no science that says any such and such species, sub species ETC can't be Melanistic . As far as the stuff I've been talking about just do internet searches on the word(s) of the subject you'd like info on such as Melanistic and look at the links provided lots of info out there just have to look. My interest in the subject comes from breeding other animals to fix certain traits colors ETC in a blood line.. By the way though it has been mentioned as cause a few times in this thread inbreeding has nothing to do with causing the mutation we are talking about. Randy

oh here's a link to some Melanistic critters http://images.google.com/images?hl=...ficial&um=1&q=melanistic&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Update*

First wanna say that this is just funny to see what everyone is saying!! I LOVE IT!! Also to anybody that belives the photo is fake i'm sorry you think that but ohh well...can't make everyone believe it!!

I do have a new update of the animal but idk if i wanna put it up and ruin the fun or just let this keep going!! :wink:


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

The OP might want to contact The Cougar Network with his picture:



> "Sightings can be wrong—people can see a housecat and think it's a cougar," said ECN co-founder Miller. To guard against this possibility, ECN maps only cougar finds determined to be "confirmed" or "probable." *A confirmed cougar requires* the body of a dead cougar, a live captured cougar, *a photograph of an animal*, or DNA evidence. To tally a probable cougar encounter, ECN looks for cougar-specific tracks, wounds or kills on prey that mirror a cougar's hunting style, or a sighting by a wildlife official.


Also check this out:
Black cougars in "The Eastern Cougar"


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

NM_HighPlains said:


> I posted a pretty good link up above if anyone cares to go wade thru it. However, the phrase "somewhere down the line...could never ever happen" is impossible to "prove". All science can do is give you a probability. And since we ARE dealing with a "mutation" (although I think several of you are tossing that term around kind of willy-nilly), sure it _could _happen. If you're an evolutionist, then you believe that you and everything else came from single-celled goo, all thanks to natural selection working on random mutations. So, sure, "somewhere down the line" cougars could also sprout wings so that they could fly around chasing aerial pigs. I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> I can buy the possibility that somewhere, somehow, there is *a* black cougar (_Puma concolor_). The strange thing, though, is that there are SO MANY reported, even in places where there aren't that many regular colored ones reported. As I quoted up above, maybe there IS a localized pocket population of inbred black cougars in the East. Which, BTW, don't get run over by cars, don't get treed by dogs, don't get shot, don't get trapped by fur trappers, and so on. Even in places where there aren't that many cougars (.ie Everglades), they get trapped, shot, treed, and so on. I'm having a HARD time believing that there are black jaguars running around in mid-TN.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying I think there are black cougars running all over the place. I'm not even sure whats in this trailcam pic. However, you have people that have come on here and said that its genetically impossible for this mutation to spring up in cougars.

All I was asking for was where they got their info. I truely do understand people being skeptical, because a body has never been discovered by science. However to simple blanket it as NOT possible seems kinda dumb. Unless they have the science to back those claims. Which they may.

Not that this has anything to do with cougars, but a little over 100 years ago. Silverback gorillas were considered to be a legend. This debate isn't whether the species exists or not. We know they do, but wether a certain genetic mutation CAN exist?


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

cmalone1 said:


> First wanna say that this is just funny to see what everyone is saying!! I LOVE IT!! Also to anybody that belives the photo is fake i'm sorry you think that but ohh well...can't make everyone believe it!!
> 
> I do have a new update of the animal but idk if i wanna put it up and ruin the fun or just let this keep going!! :wink:



Exactly what I thought youd say...I dont care if the thing is pink....it aint a panther, cougar or jaguar....its a domestic cat and you know it too....:wink:


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## 7thSeal (Dec 18, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> First wanna say that this is just funny to see what everyone is saying!! I LOVE IT!!
> 
> I do have a new update of the animal but idk if i wanna put it up and ruin the fun or just let this keep going!! :wink:


So either you're looking for attention or have proof, which is it?


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

Looney Bin said:


> All I was asking for was where they got their info.
> 
> However to simple blanket it as NOT possible seems kinda dumb. Unless they have the science to back those claims. Which they may.


Again, science cannot demonstrate that something does NOT exist. We can say there is a very low probability, but you can never say never. Anything's _possible_. Nothing happens until it happens for the FIRST time, you know? 

Instead of vague statements to "go look it up", I've given a LOT of actual links to actual websites where you can go see where that information is coming from (on both sides). Whether a guy wants to accept those sources or not is up to him.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the photograph I posted. That, for me, is the best evidence we've yet seen as it clearly shows a cougar and also comes from a pre-Photoshop period.


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

NM_HighPlains said:


> Again, science cannot demonstrate that something does NOT exist. We can say there is a very low probability, but you can never say never. Anything's _possible_. Nothing happens until it happens for the FIRST time, you know?
> 
> Instead of vague statements to "go look it up", I've given a LOT of actual links to actual websites where you can go see where that information is coming from (on both sides). Whether a guy wants to accept those sources or not is up to him.
> 
> I'm surprised no one's mentioned the photograph I posted. That, for me, is the best evidence we've yet seen as it clearly shows a cougar and also comes from a pre-Photoshop period.



Thanks..


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## mattsdad (Sep 24, 2006)

*Forest Gump*



RxBowhunter said:


> Prolly got attacked by a black panther


"Sorry bout your Black Panther Party"


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

UTECRedNk said:


> Exactly what I thought youd say...I dont care if the thing is pink....it aint a panther, cougar or jaguar....its a domestic cat and you know it too....:wink:


ACTUALLY it IS a panther/jaguar...

SOOOO...Here's what I have found out...

A local wildlife biologist that works for bays mountain (Nature Park) says that he "thinks" it's whats called a jaguarundi...These are smaller than normal jaguars BUT!! it is a jaguar...they come from south america but he believes the way it got here is a lot of hispanic people like to keep them as pets since they are smaller...also there are a lot of hispanics around this area that work for the farmers up here... SOOO...we are trying to trap it at this time and i will continue to keep everybody updated...sorry if i have spoiled the thread now...lol i just loved seeing what everybody said!!


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## REFLEX269 (Oct 20, 2006)

I saw one off the Tenn-Tom waterway in Mississippi,And I can't be convinced other wise.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

cmalone1 said:


> ACTUALLY it IS a panther/jaguar...
> 
> SOOOO...Here's what I have found out...
> 
> A local wildlife biologist that works for bays mountain (Nature Park) says that he "thinks" it's whats called a jaguarundi...These are smaller than normal jaguars BUT!! it is a jaguar...they come from south america but he believes the way it got here is a lot of hispanic people like to keep them as pets since they are smaller...also there are a lot of hispanics around this area that work for the farmers up here... SOOO...we are trying to trap it at this time and i will continue to keep everybody updated...sorry if i have spoiled the thread now...lol i just loved seeing what everybody said!!



A Jaguarundi is NOT a jaquar.  What kind of science were you taught?

They have a body length between 55 and 77 cms (22 - 30 inches), a tail length of between 33 and 60 cms (13 - 23.5 inches) and they weigh between 4.5 and 9 Kgs (10 - 20 lbs).

It is barely bigger than a average housecat. Those who thought it was a cougar didn't look at the picture. The OP played you for the suckers you are.  

He THINKs it is a jaguarundi, but isn't sure. Hard to tell in that picture, so I won't even say. They do have really small heads.

Again, this section has real issues with identifying a mountain lion. Why am I not surprised people here haven't learned this by now.

Look at the picture and use some common sense and some brains. IT is not a mountain lion.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

So its either a regular house cat or a freakin mexican house cat....same difference- 10 to 20 pounds....put out some chimichangas and bait him in.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

NM_HighPlains said:


> *Again, science cannot demonstrate that something does NOT exist*. We can say there is a very low probability, but you can never say never. Anything's _possible_. Nothing happens until it happens for the FIRST time, you know?
> 
> Instead of vague statements to "go look it up", I've given a LOT of actual links to actual websites where you can go see where that information is coming from (on both sides). Whether a guy wants to accept those sources or not is up to him.
> 
> I'm surprised no one's mentioned the photograph I posted. That, for me, is the best evidence we've yet seen as it clearly shows a cougar and also comes from a pre-Photoshop period.


Actually, science can quite easily tell us that cougars do not possess the gene responsible for making them black.

I did read a report by one biologist that stated the chances of a cougar truly being black are less than 1:1,000,000

With that caveat conceeded........it may be possible for it to happen once in a blue moon.

Over 50% of mountain lion sightings in states that have been devoid of the big cats since around 1900 are claimed to be black cats. Here in PA we have more cat sightings than Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho combined, yet not one single verifiable picture, video clip, kill site, or track has been provided.

We actually had a mountain lion attack a resident just last year!

There were two cats in the mans field, a tan one and a black one. The man shot and wounded one of the cats, and when he followed them into the timber, he was ambushed by their buddy, who was a yellow colored cougar.:tongue:

This cat and the man fought for a full 15 minutes, with the man only holding a 3" pocket knife because his gun was knocked out of his grasp when the dastardly puma attacked from behind.:darkbeer:

After several well placed knife thrusts, the 3rd cat retreated to join his 2 buddies, one of which was wounded by the 30-06 round fired by the attacked man.

Lion dogs were immediately flown in from out west.(Colorado, I seem to recall)

Oddly enough, not a single cat hair or cat track was recovered at the scene of the 15 minute brew ha-ha, however, copious amounts of whitetail deer hair was recovered from the mans trusty pocket knife.

The ample blood trail from the cat that caught the `06 slug was used for DNA sampling, but sadly, with over 100 seperate samplings being taken along the bloodtrail, none of them help ed identify the creature.......because none of them were blood.:tongue:

The last I had read about this incident was that the poor man who was attacked was probably going to be receiving a citation for filing false reports.

He should be made to sell his farm if necessary to reimburse every agency who was involved in his BS story.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

UTECRedNk said:


> So its either a regular house cat or a freakin mexican house cat....same difference- 10 to 20 pounds....put *out some chimichangas and bait him in*.



You use those for bait, and you might catch me! I love those things.:tongue:


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## Whispers Death (Oct 6, 2005)

*Might be a housecat.*

I layered the cat over the deer photo. Due to the close proximity to the camera, I think the cat appears much larger than it actually is. I have pics of ***** close to the camera and in certain setups, they look absolutely huge compared the deer. I want to believe it is a big black panther, but I think it is a feral house cat.


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Actually, science can quite easily tell us that cougars do not possess the gene responsible for making them black.
> 
> I did read a report by one biologist that stated the chances of a cougar truly being black are less than 1:1,000,000


Yes, yes, but what I meant was that RIGHT NOW we can say within 1:1,000,000 that a *normal *cougar can't be black. I'm with you there, no problem. BUT, if these alleged black cougars are, say, living on radioactive rocks or under powerlines, and that radioactivity caused a mutant gene to arise, then THOSE cougars *MIGHT* now have a gene for melanism. In other words, we haven't DNA sampled ALL the cougars in the world and these alleged black cougars might turn out to be, I dunno... _Puma negrita_ I really doubt it, but like I said never say never. Say something like "One in a million probability...." Of course, it would really, really, really help to come up with an actual black cougar. Why they haven't DNA'ed the "Cherokee Cougar" I don't know.

Now, if we're going to play hardball, it's easy for a biologist to say something and for them to quote mis-information that just goes around and around. That won't hold; We need the primary source of his information. Probably 90% of the quotes I offered up are based on anecdotal or loose evidence, even those in the pseudo-scientific magazines. None of them said "The genetic makeup of Puma concolor with respect to melanism is found ______". We need the primary source, peer-reviewed journal references that describe _Puma concolor_ genetics. I searched but I couldn't find anything, but I retired from the wildlife field some 15 years ago and I let my J. Wildlife Manage membership go so I couldn't access their site. _Heredity_, Genetics, or someplace like that might be a better place to look and I also want to see the original American Cancer Institute papers that some people referenced.

And where's the "other information" the OP mentioned???


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

cmalone1 said:


> ACTUALLY it IS a panther/jaguar...
> 
> SOOOO...Here's what I have found out...
> 
> A local wildlife biologist that works for bays mountain (Nature Park) says that he "thinks" it's whats called a jaguarundi...These are smaller than normal jaguars BUT!! it is a jaguar...they come from south america but he believes the way it got here is a lot of hispanic people like to keep them as pets since they are smaller...also there are a lot of hispanics around this area that work for the farmers up here... SOOO...we are trying to trap it at this time and i will continue to keep everybody updated...sorry if i have spoiled the thread now...lol i just loved seeing what everybody said!!


haha i don't know why you are laughing. you just proved everyone that isn't crazy to be right. you have a picture of a large mexican house cat. kudos to your scientific investigations. case closed! :thumb:


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## archer109 (Sep 10, 2005)

Just outta curiousity how big do you think this mtn. lion is?


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## cmalone1 (Nov 12, 2008)

=QUOTE=archer109;1055439950]Just outta curiousity how big do you think this mtn. lion is?







[/QUOTE]

BIGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and SCARY!!!!:wink:


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

It can not be a Jaguarundi. Its a house cat, its been stated by the experts here. Also, cougars do not have the gene to make them black. Also, state by the experts. It can not be an escaped pet, because its an optical illusion which again stated by the experts. One day I wish to be as close minded as most.

GTR


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

Big Country;1055438360[B said:


> _]Actually, science can quite easily tell us that cougars do not possess the gene responsible for making them black.
> 
> I did read a report by one biologist that stated the chances of a cougar truly being black are less than 1:1,000,000
> 
> ...


You just contradicted yourself in the first three sentences. First you say that its easy to prove that cougars don't possess the gene to be black. Then you go to say you did a report where science said its a 1 and 1,000,000 chance of happening.
Then you on to say it could happen once in a blue moon.

Now, I not going to diagree with the probabilty that most black cat sightings are misidentifaction. However you just conceded your own point of defense, that black cougars are genetically impossible. You just admitted everything you tried to prove was wrong or has no pure proof in science.

Are you a politician????


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Ok, On another forum I found this set of trail cam pics. I dont know if you have to be a member to see them, if you do I apologize, but Ill post the link. Please respond on how big you think the predator is. There are 3 pics of different distances.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=27493

GTR


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

OK lets see how closely related Jags and Leopards both cats that are know to produce Black or Melanistic are related to the North American Cougar an animal that someone here claims is unable to produce color mutations(hey it doesn't take radiation to cause these LMAO) it should be noted that this same person seems to think that some animals have Hyper Melanoma. For those that don't know Melanoma is one of the worst forms of Cancer in humans and animals and isn't Hyper lol.


Leopard. Jag ETC 
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae
Subfamily: Pantherinae
Genus: Panthera
------
Cougar AKA Puma and jaguarundi
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae
Subfamily: Felinae
Genus: Puma

Notice how closely related they are as members of the large cats. 

Now I will toss out a few quotes from the larger discussion of melanisim

""Melanism (and pseudomelanism) is often the result of genetic mutation, but can result from other stimuli, such as exposure to abnormal temperature changes during gestation which transiently alter gene transcription or translation.""

""Many examples of melanism are known among felines.""
I will add that they go on to say ""(although cougars are also known as panthers, there are no verified cases of melanism in that species)"" Not impossible just never seen.

""Abundism is the occurrence of excessively abundant dark markings (such as spots, stripes or other patch types) due to increased dark pigmentation on the coat, fur or skin of some animal species. As the number and/or size of these markings increases, some overlap and merge causing the effect of pseudomelanism where the animal appears completely black. The background color may still be discerned between the markings.""

""Industrial melanism is adaptive melanism caused by anthropogenic alteration of the natural environment in terms of industrial pollution. As soot, smoke and other industrial pollutants from factories darkens the landscape and because many organisms rely on camouflage to avoid predation, this sudden change in their environment makes them highly vulnerable to predators. This creates a strong selective pressure which will see any organism with a darker colour much more likely to survive and contribute to the gene pool of the next generation. Rare mutations are hence selected for and over time the population will adjust to a new equilibrium.[5] Peppered moth evolution is commonly used as an example of industrial melanism."' 

This one we should all remember from school IE the the moth in England that turned from white to black because of the soot covering everything made it stand out. And there is just loads more info out there and easy to find if ya just look .

There is tons of info out there that shows that as many here already know mister Hyper Cancer doesn't know a thing about this subject. 

We've all seen pictures of the Albino Deer, Moose Fox, Bobcat ETC ETC and for those that didn't know Hypomelanism(Albino) is far rarer in nature than Melanism yet some here would like you to believe that Melanism is impossible in just Puma AKA Cougars. They provide no proof of their statements(hard to provide what isn't there)

Now something to think about. The Cougar population in the Lower 48 numbers in only the thousands and has never been large. Like all big cats they have huge territories and are seldom ever seen alive or dead other than by hunting(use of dogs) and the rare road kill ETC . So not real thick on the ground and one that is rarely seen even where he is considered abundant.

Has there been or is there now a Melanistic Cougar ? Who knows but they have the same chance of being Melanistic as any other animal , so at the very least there will be one. The Cat Family is more, well I'll use Prone to Melanism than many other species. In some wild populations IE Locals the incidence of Black IE melanistic is as high as 50 percent. This has to do with the benefits of being black and the Local ETC (Benefits of being black I'm not getting into look it up) . Yet a couple people here still say Cougars can't be black that it is impossible! well one changed his tune from impossible to one in a million which is still BS but oh well . OK I'm not typing anymore in this post do your own search it is easy . Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

GTR said:


> Ok, On another forum I found this set of trail cam pics. I dont know if you have to be a member to see them, if you do I apologize, but Ill post the link. Please respond on how big you think the predator is. There are 3 pics of different distances.
> 
> http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=27493
> 
> GTR


Pictures of pigs and a gator who wants to eat the pigs ????


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Looney Bin said:


> You just contradicted yourself in the first three sentences. First you say that its easy to prove that cougars don't possess the gene to be black. Then you go to say you did a report where science said its a 1 and 1,000,000 chance of happening.
> Then you on to say it could happen once in a blue moon.
> 
> Now, I not going to diagree with the probabilty that most black cat sightings are misidentifaction. However you just conceded your own point of defense, that black cougars are genetically impossible. You just admitted everything you tried to prove was wrong or has no pure proof in science.
> ...


Not a politician, but I could do a better job than the current crop of liberals and democrats. (there are no more conservatives)

You are taking my points differently than they are meant.

The biologist in the article I mentioned did not state that there ever was a black puma.........what he stated was that the chances of it occuring were less than 1:1,000,000

There has NEVER been a documented case of a black cougar......ever.

Hundreds of conventional colored cats are killed each year in the USA. thousands more are video taped and captured on still photo`s.

There is not one single case of a black puma being photographed or filmed, ever, yet most cat sightings in areas that simply do not have breeding populations are described as black in color. Why do you think that is?

Parts of the country that have cougars do not seem to have these mysterious sightings of black cats.....why do you think that is?

Can you explain why there has NEVER been a black cat killed, found dead, video`d, or photographed? I am not talking about the easily debunked bullschidt we find regularly on the net....I mean real, verifiable proof.

There ain`t no black cats..........why don`t we move on to bigfoot or Elvis sightings?


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> OK lets see how closely related Jags and Leopards both cats that are know to produce Black or Melanistic are related to the North American Cougar an animal that someone here claims is unable to produce color mutations(hey it doesn't take radiation to cause these LMAO) it should be noted that this same person seems to think that some animals have Hyper Melanoma. For those that don't know Melanoma is one of the worst forms of Cancer in humans and animals and isn't Hyper lol.
> 
> 
> Leopard. Jag ETC
> ...


Please do not take a mention of what one single biologist said as "changing my tune"

If you want to start being personal and obnoxious, we can go that way.

You seem to believe that there are black mountain lions, many people have told you that it simply does not happen. You persist with your silly claims, and become rude about it.

Please show one verifiable picture of a black mountain lion....just one will do.

Also, out of the thousands and thousands of puma legally killed during our lifetime and before, why is there not any black ones?

I can tell you why....in fact several people have already told you why. If you cannot handle the truth, please continue with your childish tantrums.

BTW, how about throwing up a couple of bigfoot pics when you post the black panther pics.


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## archery ham (Jul 26, 2007)

The guys I work with claims they have seen them on the bluffs above Tennessee River in Colbert County, AL.


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## JC-XT (Feb 3, 2007)

archery ham said:


> The guys I work with claims they have seen them on the bluffs above Tennessee River in Colbert County, AL.



Was it 86 yards away...and was it drinking from their moonshine still? :wink:


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Not a politician, but I could do a better job than the current crop of liberals and democrats. (there are no more conservatives)
> 
> You are taking my points differently than they are meant.
> 
> ...




I agree with you. The amount of black cat sightings vs the found evidence, proves the rarity of such a speciman. I will not even begin to try to portray a point of view that is different.

However you seem to give in to the fact that a black cougar is possible then retract your statements. Proven the species is young by earthly standards. I'm simply stating that a black cougar is possible. Which you agree to then retort.

I agree that with all the sightings you would think we would have proven this to be true by now. If the speciman existed. Yet you seem incapable to remit the fact that a black cougar could exist. Yet you don't have the science to back your claims. Merely the logic to say "Well, we have not killed one yet". Which is a dubous point, but in no way proves that a black cougar isn't possible, but merely hasn't been found yet.

I ask again to show me the gentic studies that prove a cougar can not and will never exhibt a an all black color phase.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Please do not take a mention of what one single biologist said as "changing my tune"
> 
> If you want to start being personal and obnoxious, we can go that way.
> 
> ...


BC what was rude I just used the BS you posted to show that you are full of it .. And I like how you can't comprehend what you read. Show me where I said there are Black Puma AKA Cougars? Come on show me! yep just as I thought more BS from a BSer . You make it up as you go, how very sad. I just said that it is possible for them to be Melanstic IE Black, never said I saw one or that I believed there are any out there at this moment, Just said as science says, It is possible. 

I like how you keep backing away from it LMAO, time to cut your losses because you haven't one shred of anything to prove any of what you have posted in this thread. 

Now this is a direct request or I guess you could say I'm calling ya out BC. Post some actual proof to back up what you've said IE It is Impossible for a Cougar to be black ! Yeah we know you changed your tune to one in a million, so show proof of both ! I know you can't post the proof just as you know you can't because there isn't anything to back up your BS. The- They don't carry the gene bit don't fly, what gene would that be? LOL..So just why is it that you keep on saying the same BS over and over? you know it isn't true but you seem to think that if you say it enough someone might believe you. Hey don't let me stop ya you're digging your own hole.. 

Wordsmith War ! LMAO yeah right, Bull Chit War and you won.. 

Yeah I'm being hard on ya but I can't say I much care for folks that try and BS people and then when called on it can't admit they were wrong. And even worse keep trying to BS people. Randy


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

scrapejuice said:


> For all those that believe this is a real, but not full grown approx. 100 lb. "panther" of some sort. And are under the impression and belief that it is/may be released pet. Then answer this:
> 
> If it were a pet at one time. Then it would most likely not have a tremendous fear of people. Thus making it much easier to hunt and kill than say a wild born animal. As most have said it isn't big enough to be an adult, so how is this juvenile cat able to appear to be eating so well (hint: notice the large sagging belly as some have indicated, which is generally only present on older members of any species unless fed very well, not the condition of what a juvenile animal ((especially one that once was a pet and fed by humans)) would be able to sustain in the wild. One final thing would be the lack of sign. Any type of sign left behind. I would think you would be able to see tracks, fecal, or even some type of kill remains if this animal is able to appear so well fed. And if it is being fed/eating as well as the picture would indicate, why would it even be venturing very far.
> 
> ...


And yet here we find ourselves. 8 pages and 287 posts into this debate. Ands still NOBODY can provide 1 tiny piece of good logical reasoning as to how this could be an elusive, never before documented, "black panther", not to mention in TN of all places. I'm not even asking for proof, just a reasonable explanation that would be more believeable than a tricky depth perception picture.


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## Death Blow (Sep 3, 2007)

b_vanfossen said:


> I apologize for my remark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The President's job is not to fix the world. Appearantly Obama thinks the Presidents job is to destroy free market capitalism, piss all over the constitution and remake this Union into his own little fascist utopia.


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## archer109 (Sep 10, 2005)

Noone has guessed the size of the mtn. lion in my pic. I know how much it weighed as it is now dead. Lots of people on here think they can see that the "panther" in question is not a black cat so lets take a guess at the weight of the lion in my pic.


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## rhodeislandhntr (Jul 3, 2006)

archer109 said:


> Noone has guessed the size of the mtn. lion in my pic. I know how much it weighed as it is now dead. Lots of people on here think they can see that the "panther" in question is not a black cat so lets take a guess at the weight of the lion in my pic.


Its hard to tell from the pic, dont know how far away the pic was taken, but I know its over 100lbs, maybe 130-140lbs.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

what i find more amazing than a black mountain lion in Tennessee. (which that's definitely not a black mountain lion, but some of you guys are dead set on it being what you think) but anyway i'm more surprised at how many people on here come in and say that they ALSO have seen one. we went from them not existing, to someone bringing in a picture that tells us nothing, to a bunch of people claiming the sighting of one or knowing someone that has.

come on people...seriously. get real


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## bluehawk (Apr 16, 2009)

Ha, Not sure what it is. Man some of you guys sure dont like it if someone doesnt believe what you believe. Good lord who cares if some people want to think they have seen a black panther


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## mtelkhuntr (Aug 18, 2009)

Let me ask another question that seems somewhat relevant on this thread: anyone seen a WHITE mountain lion? Not albino, but pure white? I know for a fact they exist, but wondering how many have actually seen one?


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

mtelkhuntr said:


> Let me ask another question that seems somewhat relevant on this thread: anyone seen a WHITE mountain lion? Not albino, but pure white? I know for a fact they exist, but wondering how many have actually seen one?


well white ones actually occur, and still i'm sure the number of sightings nationwide are in the single digits. but black ones are the rarest of all, and the sightings just on AT alone is in the upper teens. 

get our point?


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

I compare a black mountain lion to winning the lottery, 1 in 1000000. Just because you haven't won the lottery, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others. While I agree 99.999% of the sightings are misidentification, it is plausible that someone somewhere has seen the real thing.

Even if people in this country saw 10,000 different cats a year it would take a century of sightings to get to the million mark.


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## PY Bucks (Feb 14, 2006)

:wacko::wacko:


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Twitch said:


> I compare a black mountain lion to winning the lottery, 1 in 1000000. Just because you haven't won the lottery, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others. While I agree 99.999% of the sightings are misidentification, it is plausible that someone somewhere has seen the real thing.
> 
> Even if people in this country saw 10,000 different cats a year it would take a century of sightings to get to the million mark.


Yeah, and wouldn't you have to at least think if there really was one to be seen, it would be where there is at the very least a documented population. Lets all rewind this thread to the beginning. If someone said these pics occured in say WY, CA, or ID, wouldn't it be safe to say that it might be at least a slight bit more believeable.

Oh and the large black cat pictured above is a Jaguar, notice the faint spots showing through and the blocky head.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> BC what was rude I just used the BS you posted to show that you are full of it .. And I like how you can't comprehend what you read. Show me where I said there are Black Puma AKA Cougars? Come on show me! yep just as I thought more BS from a BSer . You make it up as you go, how very sad. I just said that it is possible for them to be Melanstic IE Black, never said I saw one or that I believed there are any out there at this moment, Just said as science says, It is possible.
> 
> I like how you keep backing away from it LMAO, time to cut your losses because you haven't one shred of anything to prove any of what you have posted in this thread.
> 
> ...



1. It is not my job to do your homework son. I have asked for a single picture of a black cat, and I am waiting for one to be produced.

2. It is not hard to find a quote from a biologist that states puma simply do not come in black. My statement about reading one quote where the biologist said less than 1:1,000,000 was not backpeddling on my part in any way, shape, or form.

3. Not rude? Maybe where you come from calling someone a BS`er is acceptable, it is not where I come from. Since I do not stretch the truth at any time, and considering my personal dislike for liars(what a BS`er really is), I indeed consider it rude.

4. You would call me that one time in my presence......one time only.

5. Still waiting for you to address a single question I have asked????


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

cmalone1 said:


> View attachment 627775
> 
> 
> View attachment 627776
> ...



i'd be more then happy to take 'em out!! thier is no way in the world that this is a house cat...i don't care what anyone tries to say...


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Big Country said:


> Mountain lions/panthers/cougars simply *do not come* in black. They do not possess the gene necessary for hypermelanoma.





Big Country said:


> *It is not possible*....they cannot be black.





Big Country said:


> *It is simple genetics.....proven by DNA*.
> I know this because I read, and I pay attention to the details, the facts.





Big Country said:


> Umm, many of have bothered to look, and even your provided *article says* black panthers do not exist.





Big Country said:


> We do have simple genetic evidence that clearly states cougars *cannot come in black*





Big Country said:


> I can....panthers *do not come in black, ever*. I am not even sure that trail cam pic is of a feline?





Big Country said:


> I am not sure why you are having a problem understanding that mountain lions do not possess the gene responsible for hypermelanoma?
> 
> I am nowhere near the only member to state that FACT on this thread.


This may be true, but in the sense you are using the word hypermelanoma its not.



Big Country said:


> There has NEVER been a black cougar. *Genetically it is impossible*. This is not a fairytale, it is scientific fact.


_Then you state_



Big Country said:


> I did read a report by one biologist that stated the chances of a cougar truly being black are *less than 1:1,000,000*
> 
> With that caveat conceeded........*it may be possible* for it to happen once in a blue moon.


 Your words, my bolding. Seems this thread has accomplished something.


GTR


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> 1. It is not my job to do your homework son. I have asked for a single picture of a black cat, and I am waiting for one to be produced.
> 
> 2. It is not hard to find a quote from a biologist that states puma simply do not come in black. My statement about reading one quote where the biologist said less than 1:1,000,000 was not backpeddling on my part in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> ...


Yeah like I thought nothing to offer in any way shape or form. You can't post scientific papers because none exist to back up your ever changing opinions.. Pointing out that someone is full of it, isn't rude it is a public service .. What question have you asked? Not the hyper cancer thing again lol. You state things that are Not True over and over again but Questions?well ask an intelligent one. For someone who is supposed to have an MS in some animal field you would think that you'd know more . 

One thing I do is respond to people in the same way they respond to others here IE act like an Arse and I'll treat ya like one. You came into this thread spouting nonsense and then get upset when called on it. You do know how to fix your problem here.

------------------------------

Guys Leucistic (White) in most animals has no higher percentage of occurrence than Melanistic (Dark or Black) but in Cats Melanisum is far more prevalent than Leucism go figure.. Randy


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

is it just me or is has this thread got about 2 or 3 different conversations going on at once, which only faintly has to do with the OP????


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## Bowhuntr64 (Aug 6, 2007)

danimal7802 said:


> well white ones actually occur, and still i'm sure the number of sightings nationwide are in the single digits. But black ones are the rarest of all, and the sightings just on at alone is in the upper teens.
> 
> Get our point?


lol!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> Yeah like I thought nothing to offer in any way shape or form. You can't post scientific papers because none exist to back up your ever changing opinions.. Pointing out that someone is full of it, isn't rude it is a public service .. What question have you asked? Not the hyper cancer thing again lol. You state things that are Not True over and over again but Questions?well ask an intelligent one. For someone who is supposed to have an MS in some animal field you would think that you'd know more .
> 
> One thing I do is respond to people in the same way they respond to others here IE act like an Arse and I'll treat ya like one. You came into this thread spouting nonsense and then get upset when called on it. You do know how to fix your problem here.
> 
> ...



OK, since it seems I am mentally challenged by your standards, let us make the questions extremely simple so I can comprehend the answers.........


1. Do YOU, ravensgait, believe that there are truly black puma`s?

2. Do YOU, ravensgait have access to any confirmed pictures or video clips containing truly black puma`s? If yes, would you care to share them with us?

3. Do YOU, ravensgait know of a single black cougar that has EVER been killed?

BTW, in order to appease you, and against my better judgement, I did spend a solid 5 minutes this morning looking for the scientific example I have repeated, and you have requested. I only found a few cases where the author of the articles stated that there has never been a truly black puma. There was even mention of the specific gene in Jaguars that allow them to be truly black, but in that full 5 minutes of searching, I did NOT encounter a single statement of impossibility from any credible source. I read it previously, else I would have not repeated it. Later this evening after I am finished packing my hunting trailer for my upcoming trip, I will put another 5 minutes or so into looking for what you desire. Given that concession on my part, I think it only fair for you to answer the questions I have asked.

Also, as to my spouting nonsense.........while I may or may not be able to find the statements I have read previously concerning no black kitties, I am not the one claiming to have seen a black panther, or a bigfoot, or the toothfairy....


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GTR said:


> This may be true, but in the sense you are using the word hypermelanoma its not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you feel me giving the bigfoot crowd an infinitesimal amount of wiggle room is accomplishing something.....I am glad I could make you happy.

While a black puma has never happened yet(or at least never been seen), I guess you guys can still keep hoping.:darkbeer:


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

OK thats it, Big Country and Ravensgate can have this thread as there own personal thread to argue and attack each other personally.

All posts having to do with the OP or large black cats should be taken to a different thread!


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

archer109 said:


> Noone has guessed the size of the mtn. lion in my pic. I know how much it weighed as it is now dead. Lots of people on here think they can see that the "panther" in question is not a black cat so lets take a guess at the weight of the lion in my pic.


I am gonna say 35-50lbs. Of course I have been known to be wrong before. 

The other photo of the black cat is that of a house cat. Like I said, look at the leaves next to the cat. Those type of leaves are not big.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

scrapejuice said:


> OK thats it, Big Country and Ravensgate can have this thread as there own personal thread to argue and attack each other personally.
> 
> All posts having to do with the OP or large black cats should be taken to a different thread!


Didn`t mean to upset you here scrapejuice, honest *****. The original post on this thread was asking if anybody ever saw a black panther........that is what we are talking about, kinda. We are arguing over the possibility of such a critter.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Big Country said:


> Didn`t mean to upset you here scrapejuice, honest *****. The original post on this thread was asking if anybody ever saw a black panther........that is what we are talking about, kinda. We are arguing over the possibility of such a critter.


I'm not upset. It just seems this was turning into nothing but you and him taking personal stabs at each other.

Ya'll have done nothing but repeat the same thing for the last 3 pages, and taking each others quotes and re-quoting them, trying to catch each other slipping up with the tongue.

Heck, for that matter, I don't think anyone(myself included) has truly added much of anything of use to this thread for the last several pages. Entertaining?? maybe. But really nothing more than soft opinions, he said/ she said, or low credibility sightings. In my opinion, this was never more than a setup from the get go. MANY AT'ers have just ask for one simple thing. A picture of a person holding a yard stick beside the log. If nothing else, it should at least get rid of one of the arguements supporting either side.

Not sure why I'm getting so worked up. Maybe just having a bad day and on here taking it out on you guys?! Sorry to all, I'll just step off now.:embara:


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

can someone just please CONFIRM a true black panther??? then we can all get ready to start thinking about deer hunting. 

it's this simple. if there has NEVER been a confirmed "black panther" sighting, which seems to be the popular consensus. then why should anyone believe that the cat which has cause all of this turmoil is a black panther? shouldn't that actually hit home to us? NOBODY has ever documented or killed a black cougar. or at least that's what is being said. and so far i have yet to see anyone dig up the facts of one being documented as killed or seen. (documented and confirmed that is). so shouldn't we come to the conclusion that they don't exist? honestly?


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

scrapejuice said:


> Yeah, and wouldn't you have to at least think if there really was one to be seen, it would be where there is at the very least a documented population. Lets all rewind this thread to the beginning. If someone said these pics occured in say WY, CA, or ID, wouldn't it be safe to say that it might be at least a slight bit more believeable.
> 
> Oh and the large black cat pictured above is a Jaguar, notice the faint spots showing through and the blocky head.


Yea, but one of the factors in melanism is genetically isolated animals(inbreeding). In WY,CA,ID, the population #'s are there but I would think you would be more likely to find melanism in states that aren't supposed to have any cats at all. This would be due to limited genetic diversity in a very small breeding population. JMO:beer:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big Country said:


> OK, since it seems I am mentally challenged by your standards, let us make the questions extremely simple so I can comprehend the answers.........
> 
> 
> 1. Do YOU, ravensgait, believe that there are truly black puma`s?
> ...


LMAO Better Judgment being wasting time looking for what isn't there..So now what are you saying? backing away from your It is Impossible statements lol (rhetorical question) . Specific gene huh ,, what about this don't you get ? It is a genetic mutation any animal can have the mutation!! your dog could have puppies and one could be Melanistic because of a mutation, or the other documented causes of Melanism read the stuff it is in this thread. Come on this isn't rocket science .... Just as Hypomelanism AKA Albino (not HyperMelanoma as you've said a few times) ETC ETC are mutations something that can and does just happen in all animals every so often. You don't seem to know anything about the subject yet you try to pretend you do.

Don't do it to appease me, do it too show that you have half a clue as to what is being talked about. As for your questions they've been answered a few times might try reading what was written. What you have done here is made stuff up and passed it off as fact.. 'It could take forever to find what was never there.' Come on you're almost there go on say it , It is Possible! lol


-------
Scrape I think the OP isn't going to do the yard stick thing or he would have already done it. So no way to have any real idea of the size of the cat in his photo without it. Someone should loan him a stuffed Cougar to put in that spot lol.. Myself as I said before it looks to big to be a house cat but then I can't imagine much for mountain Lions in that neck of the woods though I guess it is possible. What is possible has been the whole heart of my argument IE a Black Cougar,, As for BC well I already stated that my problem with him is his making crap up and posting it as fact.. Sorry if it ruined this otherwise stellar thread for ya . Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Twitch said:


> Yea, but one of the factors in melanism is genetically isolated animals(inbreeding). In WY,CA,ID, the population #'s are there but I would think you would be more likely to find melanism in states that aren't supposed to have any cats at all. This would be due to limited genetic diversity in a very small breeding population. JMO:beer:


 Twitch it has nothing really to do with inbreeding, that doesn't cause mutation it just shows you very strongly the faults and good points very quickly.

The only way inbreeding would play a role is say by a Het breeding their own offspring and thus producing a visual . Say a Het for Albino quail hatched 10 eggs, somewhere around half of them would have the chance of also being Het Albino but none would be Albino. If she bred with one of those Het's the following year(or two of the Het Chicks bred) some of the chicks would be Visual Albinos the rest would be Het's. Different color mutations work different ways say the Mutation is Co Dominate then the only way it can be passed is by a Visual breeding say a non carrier . This would produce roughly 50% visuals 50% normals and if two Visuals were to breed it gets even weirder now you have a Super form as well as Visual and Normals. In Co Dom's no matter what a Visual is bred too there will be Visuals in their Get. With a recessive like Albino the only way you get a Visual Albino is by breeding Het to Het or a Visual to Het or Visual to Visual .. These are just two of the many many color and pattern mutations that exist in nature. In order for anything to breed and reproduce the Mutation the mutation had to appear on it's own in the original animal. Way more than you wanted to know lol.. Randy


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

archer109 said:


> Noone has guessed the size of the mtn. lion in my pic. I know how much it weighed as it is now dead. Lots of people on here think they can see that the "panther" in question is not a black cat so lets take a guess at the weight of the lion in my pic.


i'm guessing around 100-113lbs...and it's a male (guessing) looks awful muscular but may be added fat due to it being winter.

and for the big BLACK cat on the log i'm guessing around 50-64lbs and would make a good tapistry


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> LMAO Better Judgment being wasting time looking for what isn't there..So now what are you saying? backing away from your It is Impossible statements lol (rhetorical question) . Specific gene huh ,, what about this don't you get ? It is a genetic mutation any animal can have the mutation!! your dog could have puppies and one could be Melanistic because of a mutation, or the other documented causes of Melanism read the stuff it is in this thread. Come on this isn't rocket science .... Just as Hypomelanism AKA Albino (not HyperMelanoma as you've said a few times) ETC ETC are mutations something that can and does just happen in all animals every so often. You don't seem to know anything about the subject yet you try to pretend you do.
> 
> Don't do it to appease me, do it too show that you have half a clue as to what is being talked about. As for your questions they've been answered a few times might try reading what was written. What you have done here is made stuff up and passed it off as fact.. 'It could take forever to find what was never there.' Come on you're almost there go on say it , It is Possible! lol
> 
> ...




Again, it seems we have a blowhard who cannot answer a simple question.........good luck on your black panther hunts. Maybe you can catch the dnr releasing a bigfoot in your spare time since you waste no time answering questions, or posting pictures of your black cats.

Asking me to prove a negative is what is laughable....why not prove to all here that it is possible for a puma to be black?

Just got home from the hospital......I will try to devote some time to this unhealthy aversion you have with me proving a negative.......


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> Twitch it has nothing really to do with inbreeding, that doesn't cause mutation it just shows you very strongly the faults and good points very quickly.
> 
> The only way inbreeding would play a role is say by a Het breeding their own offspring and thus producing a visual . Say a Het for Albino quail hatched 10 eggs, somewhere around half of them would have the chance of also being Het Albino but none would be Albino. If she bred with one of those Het's the following year(or two of the Het Chicks bred) some of the chicks would be Visual Albinos the rest would be Het's. Different color mutations work different ways say the Mutation is Co Dominate then the only way it can be passed is by a Visual breeding say a non carrier . This would produce roughly 50% visuals 50% normals and if two Visuals were to breed it gets even weirder now you have a Super form as well as Visual and Normals. In Co Dom's no matter what a Visual is bred too there will be Visuals in their Get. With a recessive like Albino the only way you get a Visual Albino is by breeding Het to Het or a Visual to Het or Visual to Visual .. These are just two of the many many color and pattern mutations that exist in nature. In order for anything to breed and reproduce the Mutation the mutation had to appear on it's own in the original animal. Way more than you wanted to know lol.. Randy


OK, as a side note then. Nothing to do directly with the OP or black panthers persa. The color variation example you are speaking of is in the most simplest of forms. Its been a really long time since genetics classes, but bear with me. My terminology may be off a little. Actually color or lots of other characteristics, whether they be visual or not, can be linked to or controlled my more than one gene which can be found on different chromosomes. So the mutation necessary to create a "black" puma may be linked to many different genes not just one, how many :dontknow:, but it may be quit a few more than is needed in the Jaguar or even the Leopard. For every extra set of alleles involved necessary to get this color mutation, the odds would increase exponentially. So this furthermore implies that the odds of this black puma even existing could be astronomical. Even still, if by some crazy remote chance this is in fact NOT a house cat. I would think it to be far more likely that someone had a pet black jaguar, couldn't handle/care for it no longer and unloaded it on a remote back country road in TN. Unless the OP utilizes some form of measurement we can all agree on, this thread will and has ceased to move forward. Agree?


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

ravensgait said:


> Twitch it has nothing really to do with inbreeding, that doesn't cause mutation it just shows you very strongly the faults and good points very quickly.
> 
> The only way inbreeding would play a role is say by a Het breeding their own offspring and thus producing a visual . Say a Het for Albino quail hatched 10 eggs, somewhere around half of them would have the chance of also being Het Albino but none would be Albino. If she bred with one of those Het's the following year(or two of the Het Chicks bred) some of the chicks would be Visual Albinos the rest would be Het's. Different color mutations work different ways say the Mutation is Co Dominate then the only way it can be passed is by a Visual breeding say a non carrier . This would produce roughly 50% visuals 50% normals and if two Visuals were to breed it gets even weirder now you have a Super form as well as Visual and Normals. In Co Dom's no matter what a Visual is bred too there will be Visuals in their Get. With a recessive like Albino the only way you get a Visual Albino is by breeding Het to Het or a Visual to Het or Visual to Visual .. These are just two of the many many color and pattern mutations that exist in nature. In order for anything to breed and reproduce the Mutation the mutation had to appear on it's own in the original animal. Way more than you wanted to know lol.. Randy


Isn't the gene mutation is more easily perpetuated(sp) in genetically isolated populations of animals, reguardless of species?


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

The time stamp says the pic was taken 01-13-*2024*. It's a pic from the future when there will be large black cats in every state...:darkbeer:


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Twitch said:


> Isn't the gene mutation is more easily perpetuated(sp) in genetically isolated populations of animals, reguardless of species?


I maybe wrong, but it would seem to me that a gene mutation would be more easily expressed in a larger, non-isolated population rather than a small isolated. Making the assumption that the mutation is of a recessive type and would not be expressed unless it were to breed with another with the same "recessive" allele pairing maybe the wrong assumption. It may be in fact that the mutation is not neccessarily a rec./rec. pair of alleles, but in fact a dominant pair that has just never managed to mutate. Therefore a larger population would have a greater chance of producing this mutated gene.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

scrapejuice said:


> OK, as a side note then. Nothing to do directly with the OP or black panthers persa. The color variation example you are speaking of is in the most simplest of forms. Its been a really long time since genetics classes, but bear with me. My terminology may be off a little. Actually color or lots of other characteristics, whether they be visual or not, can be linked to or controlled my more than one gene which can be found on different chromosomes. So the mutation necessary to create a "black" puma may be linked to many different genes not just one, how many :dontknow:, but it may be quit a few more than is needed in the Jaguar or even the Leopard. For every extra set of alleles involved necessary to get this color mutation, the odds would increase exponentially. So this furthermore implies that the odds of this black puma even existing could be astronomical. Even still, if by some crazy remote chance this is in fact NOT a house cat. I would think it to be far more likely that someone had a pet black jaguar, couldn't handle/care for it no longer and unloaded it on a remote back country road in TN. Unless the OP utilizes some form of measurement we can all agree on, this thread will and has ceased to move forward. Agree?


Yeah there are any number of Alleles involved in fixing this or that color . Again my knowledge of the subject comes from having been involved in the breeding of Cattle,horses Dogs ETC most of my life and also too an interest in certain aspects of color and pattern fixing. That said you are right there are more ways than one to get a certain color and for Melanism there are a number of ways, I posted some info on that a few post back. 

The one thing many here seem to over look is that these mutations occur at a certain rate in a population. If I can remember correctly for Moose it is one in about 250.00, Whitetails are somewhere around 1 in 700.000 again if I remember correctly. All animals even humans have these mutations crop up at a given rate in the population . Oh and each mutation has it's own rate . But we also have to remember that cats have a high incidence rate of Melanism . So it is more than likely that in the long history of the Cougar that it has occurred at least a few times and will again, we just haven't seen it . Say the gene is a recessive and only one cat is born with that gene and is black, then the black dies with it as there are no other animals to perpetuate the mutation. Also consider would being black be a plus or a minus for Cougars I would think it would be a Negative so there would be another strike against a Black Cougar. If they stand out or get to hot. Think of a black one in the snow or desert, the first would make it hard for it to hunt the second would bake it lol. Where Panthers live in different climate and terrain where being black is not a disadvantage so they thrive and pass on their color. In some locals as much as 50% of the population is black. 

There is no gene that the Cougars are missing to prevent them from being black they just haven't rolled those dice lately but they will. Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Twitch said:


> Isn't the gene mutation is more easily perpetuated(sp) in genetically isolated populations of animals, reguardless of species?


Yes it would be if it occurs in an isolated population. Then the animals carrying the mutation have a greater chance of meeting and passing on the mutation. Which I guess would add credence to there being a population of black large cats somewhere in the east. I wouldn't bet money on that though.
--------

Some one mentioned that Jags once lived in the south and that is true and there have been sightings of them in recent years in southern New Mexico and Arizona.

But unless someone can show some real proof as to the identity of the animal in that game cam photo, I'd have to believe that if it is a big cat it is likely an escapee. Randy


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## FedSmith (Jul 27, 2009)

There are over 10,000 examples of the Felis concolor preserved worldwide. None of them are black. Not even close.

There are more Bengal tigers in Texas than in India.

Black "panthers" in the USA are leopards and jaguars that have escaped captivity. They are not reported missing because of the huge fines and liability involved with blowing the whistle on oneself.

There has never been a black Felis Concolor in recorded history.

Is it possible?

Out of the billions and billions of Alligators mississippiens there were 13 white ones. One died shortly after birth. There are 12 live white alligators. Ever.


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## turkinator (Feb 1, 2009)

*Picture of a deadun in TN*

I got one! I got one! ........................Oh wait, wrong thread, i got a sasquatch---


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

ravensgait said:


> Yeah there are any number of Alleles involved in fixing this or that color . Again my knowledge of the subject comes from having been involved in the breeding of Cattle,horses Dogs ETC most of my life and also too an interest in certain aspects of color and pattern fixing. That said you are right there are more ways than one to get a certain color and for Melanism there are a number of ways, I posted some info on that a few post back.
> 
> The one thing many here seem to over look is that these mutations occur at a certain rate in a population. If I can remember correctly for Moose it is one in about 250.00, Whitetails are somewhere around 1 in 700.000 again if I remember correctly. All animals even humans have these mutations crop up at a given rate in the population . Oh and each mutation has it's own rate . But we also have to remember that cats have a high incidence rate of Melanism . So it is more than likely that in the long history of the Cougar that it has occurred at least a few times and will again, we just haven't seen it . Say the gene is a recessive and only one cat is born with that gene and is black, then the black dies with it as there are no other animals to perpetuate the mutation. Also consider would being black be a plus or a minus for Cougars I would think it would be a Negative so there would be another strike against a Black Cougar. If they stand out or get to hot. Think of a black one in the snow or desert, the first would make it hard for it to hunt the second would bake it lol. Where Panthers live in different climate and terrain where being black is not a disadvantage so they thrive and pass on their color. In some locals as much as 50% of the population is black.
> 
> There is no gene that the Cougars are missing to prevent them from being black they just haven't rolled those dice lately but they will. Randy


educated post, logic and reason involved too.


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

Did any of you take the time to actually read this paper?



NM_HighPlains said:


> 2) Molecular Genetics and Evolution of Melanism in the Cat Family:
> 
> From: LINK to original


Have fun. I'm unsubscribing this thread and going hunting.


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

> Though a popular myth, *black panthers do not exist in the wild in North America*. A black panther is a melanistic version of a large cat, usually an African leopard or a jaguar. These can sometimes be seen in zoos. Melanistic refers to the unusual black coloration produced by a hereditary, genetic mutation. There has never been a black mountain lion documented anywhere in their range.


From here: http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/06/20.htm



> The Mountain Lion is a large, slender cat with a smallish head and noticeably long tail. Its fur is a light, tawny brown color which can appear gray or almost black, depending on light conditions. Contrary to popular belief, *there are no black panthers in North America*; no one has ever captured or killed a black Mountain Lion.


From here: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/mlion/



> May said several species do have melanism, a genetic variation that causes some animals to have darker fur than normal. But that variation, he said, *doesn’t exist in mountain lions*.


From here: http://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/features/local_story_033104022.html/resources_printstory

Big Country is right.


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## mlo32 (Jan 11, 2009)

Flatfoot said:


> Here's one to look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhUE58vV2Ws


Do these stealthy cats always parade back and forth across open areas? I think not, definitely a house cat


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## FL-HNT-N-FSH (Dec 4, 2004)

too big for a housecat. I am not a biologist but it is a bigger cat than any of the big barn cats I have seen.


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

LOL...it's that time of the year.
Panther and Bigfoot stories come out of the woods every late summer/early fall.
Never fails.
I suspect these "panther" pictures will circulate the internet and end up in my email inbox.


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## archer109 (Sep 10, 2005)

Only a couple people have guessed the weight of the lion in my pic. 

j82higgs i'm guessing around 100-113lbs...and it's a male (guessing) looks awful muscular but may be added fat due to it being winter.

rhodeislandhtr guessed Its hard to tell from the pic, dont know how far away the pic was taken, but I know its over 100lbs, maybe 130-140lbs. 

The lion in my pic is only 45 lbs. My pic just goes to show that cats can and do definantly look bigger than they actually are.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

archer109 said:


> Only a couple people have guessed the weight of the lion in my pic.
> 
> j82higgs i'm guessing around 100-113lbs...and it's a male (guessing) looks awful muscular but may be added fat due to it being winter.
> 
> ...


I did not guess because I have only seen a couple of them in the wild. That said, i would have agreed with j82higgs........I felt it looked like a male, and I felt it was easily over 100lbs.:embara:


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

archer109 said:


> Only a couple people have guessed the weight of the lion in my pic.
> 
> j82higgs i'm guessing around 100-113lbs...and it's a male (guessing) looks awful muscular but may be added fat due to it being winter.
> 
> ...


You forgot The Swami!!!

Looks like I had it about right. I said 35-50lbs. But then again, I live in a mountain lion state too. Man I love Idaho. 

Swami says...

It takes more than just eyes to see the light.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

NM_HighPlains said:


> Did any of you take the time to actually read this paper?
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=0b9c85934e1a17dfff535f26186c1d38
> Have fun. I'm unsubscribing this thread and going hunting.



OK, now I am going to start making excuses.......:embara:

1. I am in the middle of a rather large business deal that has me mentally drained.
2. This deal is causing me to be a few days late leaving on a 3 country hunting trip....and that has me drained.
3. I have been visiting my brother in the hospital all weekend, and he is not doing well.

Now that my excuses are out of the way.........does the link graciously provided by NM_HighPlains NOT pretty much state that the gene responsible for melanism is not found in several different cat species, including the puma concolor(mountain lion)?

BTW, CAPT. JJ, thank you for those links. I had already found those three, but I feared that since the authors were not noted as being scientists that their statements would be disregarded.


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

I know I read it right... 3 _*country *_hunting trip. Fill us in on the details.:beer:








Big Country said:


> OK, now I am going to start making excuses.......:embara:
> 
> 1. I am in the middle of a rather large business deal that has me mentally drained.
> 2. This deal is causing me to be a few days late leaving on a 3 country hunting trip....and that has me drained.
> ...


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

CAPTJJ said:


> From here: http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/06/20.htm
> 
> From here: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/mlion/
> 
> ...



Wow a Game Warden said it doesn't exist I'm convinced lol Not.. Might want to read the links .. Randy


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Twitch said:


> I know I read it right... 3 _*country *_hunting trip. Fill us in on the details.:beer:



Well, I am counting the good `ol USA in that list.....

Peace River, Alberta for spot and stalk bear(2 for me, 2 for my cameraman)
Durango, CO for elk
Fly to South Africa for multiple species
Drive back to Illinois for whitetails

Go home to see if my key still works and my wife is still home?:tongue:

Off to Kansas......


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## FedSmith (Jul 27, 2009)

CAPTJJ said:


> From here: http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/06/20.htm
> 
> From here: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/mlion/
> 
> ...


So is FedSmith.:wink:

I did not need Google. I had to live it to get an M.S.


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## warchild (May 26, 2009)

*Black panther*

I've heard stories of "black Panthers" in Ga. as well .We had a cougar killed here last year.Guy called DNR and they thought he was full of crap so they sent a Ranger out to have a look.Sure enough it was a cougar but when they checked it out they found wear on the cats pads and claws that came from being raised in a cage with a concrete floor.They said he was someones exotic pet that was being kept illegally.I'd bet that is probably the same case in a lot of these sightings.


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

cmalone1 said:


> ACTUALLY it IS a panther/jaguar...
> 
> SOOOO...Here's what I have found out...
> 
> A local wildlife biologist that works for bays mountain (Nature Park) says that he "thinks" it's whats called a jaguarundi...These are smaller than normal jaguars BUT!! it is a jaguar...they come from south america but he believes the way it got here is a lot of hispanic people like to keep them as pets since they are smaller...also there are a lot of hispanics around this area that work for the farmers up here... SOOO...we are trying to trap it at this time and i will continue to keep everybody updated...sorry if i have spoiled the thread now...lol i just loved seeing what everybody said!!


Originally Posted by Kansas Bruisers 
Long legs??? There's maybe 4-6 inches of daylight between the log and it's belly. The cat is about 1/4 the size of the fawn in the first pic, it's a house cat that has been eating well. 

Originally posted by RxBowhunter
No way that's a house cat. I've held 30+# house cats and they don't look like that. 4-6" between the log and it's belly??? Please buy a new ruler. 
It looks like a 50-60# feline animal. That's about all I can say.......other than get out of the bull butter if you think it's still a house cat. 


Originally posted by GETMRUTN
Show me a fat house cat thats belly isnt rubbing the ground!!!! 
If a house cat is as big as that then its belly WILL NOT be that high off the ground. The legs are long on this cat and not short. I have three outside cats here in my barn and I will tell you the longest the legs are on either of them are no longer than 6-8 in. You are in serious denial if you think this is a house cat. PLEASE. 





I just finished my last jar of bull butter and my denial is worse than ever, the biologist that looked at the photo thinks it's an animal that has an average weight of 13lbs. I'm thinking that's about the size of a house cat. Can you please send me that new ruler you wanted me to get.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Black jaguarundi


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Come on RX, you have to admit that looks just like a house cat.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Kansas Bruisers said:


> Come on RX, you have to admit that looks just like a house cat.


It looks like a screwy house cat on steroids I'll admit. I've met many screwy house cats but never one on steroids lol. Therefore I stand by my original post.

It AIN'T a house cat.


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## PUG (Nov 3, 2002)

*hehe..*



Kansas Bruisers said:


> Come on RX, you have to admit that looks just like a house cat.


Ill admit it...The darn things average less than 20 pounds...So yeah, might as well be a house cat...Like I said, aint no black cougar..best case scenario is a released/escaped pet...low and behold

Glad this all got cleared up!...


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

RxBowhunter said:


> It looks like a screwy house cat on steroids I'll admit. I've met many screwy house cats but never one on steroids lol. Therefore I stand by my original post.
> 
> It AIN'T a house cat.



Then let's meet in the middle, it's a Mexican cat that got into Barry Bond's steroid stash.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Kansas Bruisers said:


> Then let's meet in the middle, it's a Mexican cat that got into Barry Bond's steroid stash.


And Barry Bond never used steroids!!! :chortle:


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## ks_bow_hunter (Sep 4, 2008)

RxBowhunter said:


> It looks like a screwy house cat on steroids I'll admit. I've met many screwy house cats but never one on steroids lol. Therefore I stand by my original post.
> 
> *It AIN'T a house cat*.


Damn near the same thing. If it was living with someone, it's tame. The thing only weighs 15lbs! A mountain lion can weigh up to 200lbs! How could anyone confuse this with a mountian lion? The thing is smaller than a bobcat. There are house cats that get over 10lbs. I'd say it's a hell of a lot closer to a house cat than a black panther, LOL. When someone says "I know it's no damn house cat", well it's just a few pounds bigger.


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## georgiabuckdan (Dec 17, 2007)

Big Country said:


> OK, now I am going to start making excuses.......:embara:
> 
> 1. I am in the middle of a rather large business deal that has me mentally drained.
> 2. This deal is causing me to be a few days late leaving on a 3 country hunting trip....and that has me drained.
> ...


Whats up big! Hope all is well, Thats because the cat in the pic looks like a jaguar wich black in jaguar/ panther is 50/50 and is a recesive trait not gene.. Its like someone born with a 6th finger thats a recesive gene, not a recesive trait. And you are correct there are no indications of that recesive trait in cougars.


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## lumley1015 (8 mo ago)

cmalone1 said:


> Has anybody seen a black panther in tn? I seen one and called twra but they pretty much laughed at me...and said if i have a picture of it to take it strait to the office...but they said there is no documented cases of a black panther in TN!!
> 
> So let's see if i'm not crazy!!


I be damned! Cause me and my dad live in Wilder TN and we saw one today prolly bout 2 foot tall on all fours!


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## thwackaddict (Sep 1, 2006)

Bobcats and mountain lions both can look as coal black as a black lab from a distance in the right lighting. I have seen a bobcat go from coal black to normal gray as I drove from 120 yards to 30 yards away from one.


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## jacobh (Jun 7, 2009)

Can they not be melanistic? Never seen one but hey deer are brown right? Yet some are black


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

jacobh said:


> Can they not be melanistic? Never seen one but hey deer are brown right? Yet some are black


There has never been a melanistic mountain lion, puma, panther, etc., the genes do not exist in the population.


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## Dickenscpa (May 2, 2015)

It's funny I stumbled across this OLD thread that someone resurrected. Turkey season goes until 5/15 here in TN. I was fishing a bass tournament two weeks ago and I was site fishing a soft bottom for bed fish maybe 10 yds from the ramp and maybe 20 yds off the bank.

The water I was fishing was on Old Hickory Lake at the end of Cairo Bend Rd, which is surrounded by public WMA hunting land in the area I was fishing. Very common to hear gun shots while fishing in this area during turkey or deer season.

I was VERY close to the small parking area. Little to no boat traffic in this water because the parking lot is not paved or even hardly graveled, it's more chirt. There's also no concrete ramp it's just a low, sandy drop. I was fishing a kayak tournament so I'll launch here periodically to get away from boats.

Directly off from the parking lot is an old logging road that's now got one of those gates to keep ATVs and vehicles off. So the old logging road is kinda grown over but you can tell it was once a road. I'm fishing and I hear the weirdest growl. Thru the sparse trees that lined the bank I see movement coming out of the woods from the logging road into the small parking area.

I'm not saying I saw a black panther. But I did see the largest black cat I've ever seen with a tail as long as its body part carrying and part dragging a full grown tom. This cat was noticeably bigger than the tom, very noticeable.

Even though I was fishing a KBF kayak tournament where it's catch, photo & release and had my phone/camera on me - I didn't even think of a photo. Strangely my mind went to what cats don't like water and which don't mind water. I was in 1-2' of water and literally worried that when he stopped and looked at me was he coming into the water. I pedaled in reverse to deeper water.

After seeing me he picked his turkey back up and changed directions back into the woods. I'm NOT saying I saw a black panther. I did see the largest black feline I've ever seen carrying a 15-20# turkey and dwarfed the turkey.

I assume it was a house cat that went feral and fed well or an exotic cat or mix of one that the owner let loose. One thing for sure - if it came down to even get a drink of water at the edge you woulda thought my Hobie had a 250 Merc on the back. My legs would be on those pedals mojacking!

I've learned over the years to never say never, LOL! I go to church with one DNR officer and we're very close friends and I do his taxes as well. I do a number of DNR officer's taxes for free anyway and know them well. I was a co-angler in a boat tournament a number of years ago and my boater wrecked and almost killed us both. It was DNR that came and saved us and I've done taxes and helped many of them.

About a year ago I stepped on what I thought was a semi-soft dead log that wound up being a large python about 8' long. It was Nov and even though it doesn't get remotely cold in TN until Jan-Feb it was apparently too cold for this snake here in Nov. It barely moved. I reached for my phone and I kid you not I'd left it at home. I reported it and DNR came out and even a day later it had not really moved. After an investigation they found a guy two properties over that kept snakes as pets and admitted to letting this one go after it got big.

So I never say what definitely is or is not out there. People are weird and they do weird things.


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

lumley1015 said:


> I be damned! Cause me and my dad live in Wilder TN and we saw one today prolly bout 2 foot tall on all fours!


Better lay off the hard stuff….


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## hobbs4421 (May 20, 2006)

MKNOX said:


> So far there has never been a documented case of a (hypermelanistic) black mountain lion EVER!!! The only large cats ever recorded with this color phase are Jaguars and Leapords and I am pretty sure they are not native to Tennessee.


How does one get a documented case, and who documents it? If the authorities who want ya to believe they dont exist are in charge of documenting a case, then I think we know why there aren’t any documented cases.


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## cadguy2 (Nov 17, 2015)

Better lay off the hard stuff….
[/QUOTE]
I seen him behind the still I tells ya.[/QUOTE]


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## tmead (May 10, 2010)

hobbs4421 said:


> How does one get a documented case, and who documents it? .


Same way you document a bigfoot, unicorn or the tooth fairy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## hobbs4421 (May 20, 2006)

tmead said:


> Same way you document a bigfoot, unicorn or the tooth fairy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Lol


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

What would be the motivation for biologists to hide the existence of melanistic mountain lions? That's not how science works. Melanism has been documented in leopards and jaguars, but they are still rare. Very few melanistic bobcats have been documented, mainly in Florida, and only about 1/3 of wild cat species exhibit melanistic traits.


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