# True Advantages of the Fat Shaft



## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

swerve said:


> Curious as to how many think they gain an advantage by shooting larger diameter shafts. Say in excess of 23/64ths. Is the Advantage in scoring or accurracy?


I have been debating a good diameter shaft myself....The NFAA rules say anthything under the 2317 is fine. Which would make my xringers not usable at .375. Soooooo

I think the general consensus is that the extra diameter will get you a few more points....accurracy is totally up to you.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Indoors or outdoors?


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

I started playing last winter with some 2315 and 2613. I haven't gave up on the 2613 yet but it just seems that my misses aren't as dramatic with my 2315 as the 2613. 

As a comparison I shot a 300 51x practising the other day with my ACE and have yet to shoot the with either 2315 or 2613.


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## Field Shooter (Nov 2, 2005)

itchyfinger said:


> I have been debating a good diameter shaft myself....The NFAA rules say anthything under the 2317 is fine. Which would make my xringers not usable at .375. Soooooo
> 
> I think the general consensus is that the extra diameter will get you a few more points....accurracy is totally up to you.



Does NFAA have a rule on the dia of the arrow did not know that, I thought it was the NAA.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

Field Shooter said:


> Does NFAA have a rule on the dia of the arrow did not know that, I thought it was the NAA.


you are right, the F should not be in NFAA. Sorry.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

For indoor shooting the fat shafts are very popular and may have a small edge. For the field round and it long outdoor shots in weather (wind) the fat shafts are a dis-advantage in my opinion.

Dave


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

I think your right Dave. Outdoors the larger shafts are a disadvantage with one exception. Long draw lengths can do amazing things with big arrows.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Dave T said:


> For indoor shooting the fat shafts are very popular and may have a small edge. For the field round and it long outdoor shots in weather (wind) the fat shafts are a dis-advantage in my opinion.
> 
> Dave


In field archery you only shoot 12 shots out of 112 over 65 yards. I think a happy medium diameter shaft would reek the most benefits. I will be parking my small diameter shafts and going back to a medium diameter shaft next year for filed.

Late summer I started checking the amount of lines I missed, per field round, with the small diameter shafts. I was shocked. I then got out some medium diameter shafts and compared the grouping at 80 yards scoring the X's as 6 and shooting five arrows I scored more 28's with the the medium diameter shafts than I did with the small diameter shaft.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

WV Has Been said:


> In field archery you only shoot 12 shots out of 112 over 65 yards. I think a happy medium diameter shaft would reek the most benefits. I will be parking my small diameter shafts and going back to a medium diameter shaft next year for filed.
> 
> Late summer I started checking the amount of lines I missed, per field round, with the small diameter shafts. I was shocked. I then got out some medium diameter shafts and compared the grouping at 80 yards scoring the X's as 6 and shooting five arrows I scored more 28's with the the medium diameter shafts than I did with the small diameter shaft.


What would you condsider medium diameter. 22's and 23's?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

swerve said:


> I think your right Dave. Outdoors the larger shafts are a disadvantage with one exception. Long draw lengths can do amazing things with big arrows.


LOL - swerve, I draw 32.75" with a barebow recurve. Trust me, at that length a fat shaft is presenting quite a cross section for the wind to get ahold of. I shoot Navigators (full length - smile) for field.

Dave


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Let's talk "Advantages" versus...being SMART and playing the odds.

Here's a take you people might not accept...but it sure makes sense to me....

Let's say a shooter is shooting...2114's or maybe ACC's INDOORS, and is shooting 57X or 58X. First, their FORM and SHOT EXECUTION is by far MORE CONSISTENT than someone shooting "only" 50X; that is a given.

Now...it MIGHT be SMART for the 57-58X shooter to "move up" and "setup" for the 2613, LinJammer, X-cutter, 30X...shafts to MAYBE pickup the 2 or 3X's needed...THEIR FORM CAN HANDLE THIS.

However, for a 45 to 50X shooter to THINK FOR A MINUTE that they will "instantly jump" to 58 to 60X simply by using the FAT SHAFTS...then they are in for a huge disappointment, IMHO.

FAT SHAFTS GIVE YOU NOTHING...remember, in this game, MORE is NOT always BETTER....and what you GET on one thing...you GIVE AWAY somewhere else.

If you have the FORM for it, then FAT SHAFTS can really help. But for an Average shooter to EXPECT to jump from 45X to 55X or better simply by putting on the FAT SHAFTS...ain't gonna happen...UNTIL THEIR FORM IS READY FOR IT, IMHO.

CORRECTLY SPINED ARROWS are ALWAYS much more forgiving than the SUPER STIFF fat shafts...so an average shooter probably is wiser to work their way up to fat shafts....IMHO.

FOR ME...I've NEVER, NOT ONCE, shot a 60X with a 2613...the BEST I've ever done is 58X. However, when I was shooting my lifetime best...I shot NUMEROUS 60X with CORRECTLY SPINED 1714 or 1813 arrows! Even a 2114 or 2312, 2413....best I ever did with them too...58X. But when I was shooting by best...gimme a correctly spined arrow, and I KNEW I COULD shoot 60X, or 39-42X, 450 Vegas...regularly..NOT ALL THE TIME...but regularly....

So...weigh the odds, PAY ATTENTION to HOW you shoot, and don't expect miracles...those FAT SHAFTS ARE NOT A GUARANTEE to the "winner's circle" by any means.

SOME of the best shooters in the WORLD...>DO NOT SHOOT FAT SHAFTS....and for a reason.....

field14


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

field14 said:


> But for an Average shooter to EXPECT to jump from 45X to 55X or better simply by putting on the FAT SHAFTS...ain't gonna happen...UNTIL THEIR FORM IS READY FOR IT, IMHO.
> field14


Great post and I agree. Get your form perfect first, then make the changes to the equipment that may give you a little edge in certain situations


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

itchyfinger said:


> What would you condsider medium diameter. 22's and 23's?


I would consider those shafts the extreme top of medium diameter shafts.:wink:


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

I shot fatboys last year, not huge but not small either. I know theres bigger logs. Heres what i seen. When you try to pile 4 arrows in a spot, while shooting with 3 other guys, it gets awfully crowded in there too. The potential for damage goes up. I dont believe for a second that my scores were better for it, but thats all I had so. Just my 2 bits.


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## bowhnter7 (Dec 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> Let's talk "Advantages" versus...being SMART and playing the odds.
> 
> Here's a take you people might not accept...but it sure makes sense to me....
> 
> ...


What if ya get em to spine out? If there a diff then?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

bowhnter7 said:


> What if ya get em to spine out? If there a diff then?


Well, let's see....to get 'em to spine out...FOR ME at my drawlength:::

I need 500 grain points, 90 pounds of peak weight, and 34" shafts...and they are still slightly stiff!

the 90 pounds peak weight...poses problems.

1. the NFAA has and 80 pound peak weight limit...so 90 pounds is out right of the bat.

2. I cannot COMFORTABLY pull more than around 63# peak anyways.

3. GoldTip 30X don't come in 34" length

5. I can't get enough LEAD into my 30X tips to get 500 grains, and the SCREW I need...even in brass or stainless...would be over 5" long...and the FOC would be distributed way back away from the nose of the arrow.

OTHER THAN THAT..."spining 'em out".....would be a WASTE OF ENERGY and NOT WORK anyways...

Then, I gotta consider this....I'm shooting the 30X with 150 grain points...WAY TOO STIFF...and heavy as heck...even a MINOR mistake produces a miss...even putting my finger in the release wrong can do it...and if I creep or lose tension or fatigue..GUARANTEED LOW MISS..GUARANTEED.

People tend to GET SLOPPY when using FAT SHAFTS...expecting the ARROW to do the shooting for them (buying a score)...STIFF ARROWS are PROBLEMATICAL, just like WEAK ARROWS are seriously flawed too...(you know FOR THE SAKE OF SPEED, shoot a LIGHT ARROW).

So, I think the key here is Being REALISTIC...and remembering that what you get on one side FAT DIAMETER...may well be over done on the other...cuz you GIVE UP SOMETHING TOO when you go to FAT SHAFTS.

When talking FIELD...FAT SHAFTS take up more room...so KISSOUTS can become problematical. FAT SHAFTS are going to get BUSTED UP..if not by YOU, by your competitors....AND, IN ADDITION...if those FAT SHAFTS cost your competitors some points due to YOUR arrows kissing THEM out...you are not going to be "popular" with them. And I guarantee you...cuz I SURE WOULD...they'll be GOING AFTER YOUR SHAFTS with a vengeance! If they hit 'em square they wont in all likelihood kiss out...and they stand a good chance of TUBING THEM! hahahahahaha.

field14


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

I fell in love with my X-Cutters with 4" helical feathers shooting indoors last Winter. Considering how stiff they are they tuned very, very easily. Even more easily than the 22s I tried shooting for 3D. I did go against the "common" wisdom on cutting them very short, though. But OT2 still calls them off the charts.

But when I thought I would try chucking them some distance this last Spring I decided to change. Even though they grouped rather well they would do a big tail whip if the they went past something that was blocking the wind. And talk about kiss outs! WOW! I ended up using properly spined XT3555s with better success and got even better results switchng to 300 grain Redlines. In my own personal experience this year I say that skinny and properly spined is the way to go if you want to shoot a long ways.:nod: 

I have shot Fatboys as far as 60 yards with my 3D setup, though, and they still drifted more than my Redlines. Very noticeable difference.


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## bowhnter7 (Dec 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> Well, let's see....to get 'em to spine out...FOR ME at my drawlength:::
> 
> I need 500 grain points, 90 pounds of peak weight, and 34" shafts...and they are still slightly stiff!
> 
> ...



Sorry I was thinking more indoor. I guess I got 2512's to spine out at 34 inches 270 up front with only 50#'s. Looking at some 2613's. On Target says I get get em to spine out at 34 inches with 325's up front. My 2314's are shorter with only 180 up front.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

bowhnter7 said:


> Sorry I was thinking more indoor. I guess I got 2512's to spine out at 34 inches 270 up front with only 50#'s. Looking at some 2613's. On Target says I get get em to spine out at 34 inches with 325's up front. My 2314's are shorter with only 180 up front.


What I said APPLIES INDOORS AS WELL.....

You probably CAN get a 2512 to "spine out" that way...but a 2613 is a different animal...and a HEAVY HEAVY arrow is very susceptible to shooting LOW with even a slightly SOFT SHOT at ALL....

When I shot my best....and was using FAT SHAFTS, almost ALL of my misses would be LOW at 6 o'clock...I rarely then would miss left, right, or high...ALWAYS LOW...the things were just so heavy that my piddly baby pull weight didn't have enough UMPH, know what I mean?

Longer the arrow is on the string...the more time YOU HAVE to INFLUENCE THE SHOT.

the arrow WILL hold the line if it is shot correctly...but a heavy arrow moving so doggoned SLOW out of the bow...heaven help you if you make a mistake....AT LOWER POUNDAGES.

field14


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Outdoor
I have looked around on this one for quite some time and have decided it is just not worth it going with a thick arrow for outdoor field. Any of the non-bigseye shots the disadvantages of drift far far outweigh the advantages of linecutting. I use X10's for FITA Field and watch the points loss to linecutters closely. Last competition over 2 days I lost 2 points to linecutters, but in was a bit windy and I did not get drift, so chances are picked up more points. 

Indoor
Different beast. No drift and smallish target. Bigger is better. Now a 26xx shaft may not actually big you much over a 23xx shaft, but they will give you alot more over a thin arrow. I've cleaned Vegas rounds with ACE's and X10's, but it is a crap load easier with 2315's. 
The spine issue I don't buy. Compounds are not recurves and spine is not that big a deal. Weight however is VERY helpful and I find that a heavier arrow groups tighter than a light arrow. This is what I think people see when they put heavy points in. Point weight changes resonant frequency slightly, but not spine. 
I have high speed video of someone shooting 2513's with a 49# bow with level nock travel and 100gr points and getting huge amounts of flexing, enough that you would say the arrows were underspined. 

I do agree with field14 that a huge arrow won't make you a 58x shooter, but I decent sized arrow does help, even with lower end shooters.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Outdoor
> I have looked around on this one for quite some time and have decided it is just not worth it going with a thick arrow for outdoor field. Any of the non-bigseye shots the disadvantages of drift far far outweigh the advantages of linecutting. I use X10's for FITA Field and watch the points loss to linecutters closely. Last competition over 2 days I lost 2 points to linecutters, but in was a bit windy and I did not get drift, so chances are picked up more points.
> 
> Indoor
> ...



Marcus,
You are IN ERROR with your statement above in RED...

GO into Archer's Advantage OR OT2. Leave your setup as it is....and then just changed the POINT WEIGHT...and watch what happens to the SPINE of the ARROW....just on the "graph" thingy alone.....by INCREASING POINT WEIGHT, you DECREASE or BREAK DOWN the spine of the arrow.

On OT2....if an arrow is TOO STIFF...ONE OF THE VARIABLES they offer up...INCREASE POINT WEIGHT....if too weak..ONE OF THE VARIABLES they OFFER>>>>>DECREASE POINT WEIGHT..

POINT WEIGHT DOES AFFECT SPINE.....or at least the bow's reaction to it, and can be a quick and easy way to "spine tune match" your arrows instead of CUTTING them off, or buying new ones cuz you cut them too short!

I quote from OT2 for an arrow I INTENTIONALLY made TOO WEAK IN SPINE:
This is in response to a WEAK SHAFT situation.
"Comments: Remove weight from the front, add weight to the back, decrease draw weight, add weight to the string, pick a stiffer shaft, increase brace height."

For a STIFF shaft situation: 

QUOTE from Comments on OT2: "add weight to the front, remove weight from the back, increase draw weight, remove weight from the string, pick a weaker shaft, decrease brace height.

ALL OF WHICH...you can do with the setup part of the computer, of course ONE AT A TIME...the easiest being POINT WEIGHT...cuz you can just plug that in easily on the "shaft selector" portion and not do much more...and you can CLEARLY SEE what effects on SPINE removing or adding point weight has!

Increasing the "pile" also helps the arrow DRIVE THRU the wind better, and increases momentum, thus allowing the arrow to have less speed/energy bleed off down range..>WHERE, in FITA IT REALLY COUNTS a ton!

field14:wink::tongue:





field14:wink::tongue:


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## SOBLE (Aug 9, 2007)

This is where I am lost. I need to study arrows a bit more. I couldn't even tell you what I shoot now other than they are GoldTip.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

SOBLE said:


> This is where I am lost. I need to study arrows a bit more. I couldn't even tell you what I shoot now other than they are GoldTip.


Why not a heavy, skinny, wind bucking arrow with small fletchings outdoors? That would probably be your best bet.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Outdoor
> I have looked around on this one for quite some time and have decided it is just not worth it going with a thick arrow for outdoor field. Any of the non-bigseye shots the disadvantages of drift far far outweigh the advantages of linecutting. I use X10's for FITA Field and watch the points loss to linecutters closely. Last competition over 2 days I lost 2 points to linecutters, but in was a bit windy and I did not get drift, so chances are picked up more points.
> 
> Indoor
> ...


Marcus,

Agree 100% with your statement on spine. Back in the day when you had to shoot around the riser spine was an issue. Now days you can set the bow up with the rest center shot. I shoot 26" 2613 and have not had any issues with accuracy.

Made a challenge a while back that never received much input. It went something like this. I challenge anyone to prove that an arrow has to flex a specific amount to be accurate. 

I think with proper clearance spine is a mute point unless you go to weak. Spine charts are in place today for liability purposes.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> Marcus,
> 
> Agree 100% with your statement on spine. Back in the day when you had to shoot around the riser spine was an issue. Now days you can set the bow up with the rest center shot. I shoot 26" 2613 and have not had any issues with accuracy.
> 
> ...


Brian,
I agree with you a lot when it comes to TWENTY YARDS, 25 meters INDOORS....however...if you are WAY OFF SPINE (especially WEAK) OUTDOORS at DISTANCE...you are asking...no BEGGING....for POORLY GROUPING ARROWS!

Just cuz you got a compound and release...does NOT mean you IGNORE SPINE for OUTDOOR DISTANCE SHOOTING...and just grab an arrow and point weight and run with it...that is a RECIPE FOR FAILURE.....

You will NOT group consistently tight with a way weak, or way stiff arrow OUTDOORS at distance. You gotta have the correct arrow...and then TUNE THE BOW TO THE ARROW AND YOU....for TIGHTEST POSSIBLE Consistency, Grouping, and Forgiveness. If you don't, you are ROBBING YOURSELF.

They don't put together the OT2, TAP, or AA computer programs, have you go thru all that bow and arrow equipment data input. and then give you a list of recommended arrow spines..FOR NOTHING..They don't give you the laterality to adjust your "setup" on screen before whacking off a new dozen arrows or wasting money on the WRONG ONES...for NOTHING.

YOU might think spine is of NO CONSEQUENCE...even outdoors...and that is fine...but you WILL NOT find yourself on the winner's platform if you are WAY OFF in a "Match" with your BOW to the ARROW and YOU...

SPINE does MATTER a TON....

Do a poll sometime for OUTDOOR SHOOTERS and if they shoot close to "recommended spine" or not....you'll see the light....

OR...ask how many TUNE THE BOW to the ARROW..you'll find that the TOP SHOOTERS do...the mid-range shooters will pick a weight and stick with the WEIGHT and buy more arrows instead of tweaking the poundage...and the newbies...GIVE ME A BOW AND SOME ARROWS...and I"LL MAKE THIS SUCKER shoot them arrows... or something like that, anyways.

I'm NOT bad-mouthing anyone...just the facts.....

field14


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Shaft size for Field*

For the average Field archer even up to the advanced field archer it seems to me that you are better off picking correctly spined shafts for the type of terrain you are shooting. If your courses are open and windy you will score better with the heavy smaller diameter shafts like X-10's, Nano's, and Cartel Triples. If your courses are protected in heavy timber like most of the courses in New England you may do better with a little fatter shaft. Several of the arrow companies have a high quality shaft around .246 diameter and they seem to group extremely well out to 80 yards and pick up a few lines without too much problem with kiss outs.
Jbird


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

OK so field14, you whole basis on whether point weight makes a difference to spine is some program that is programed to tell you that "you shaft is too stiff add weight". ROFLMAO. That is not scientific proof. Go back and try to come up with something better. 

As a FITA shooter I have shot and scored well with 
X10 500's 120gr points
Protour 470's 120gr points
X10 450's 110gr points
X10 410's 110gr points
X10 380's 110gr points

They all group the same and my 90m best scores are all very close with all the above arrows. 
Sorry but these are well made compound bows with good nock travel and good limb pockets. You can shoot pretty much anything accurately with them. 

Oh, and by the way, putting words in capitol letters every sentence doesn't automatically make a conclusive argument.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Arrow spine is simply a static measurement of how much any given arrow shaft will bend under a specific load. This was/is used to indicate how an arrow shaft will react to a particular applied force.

You can vary the reaction of the shaft to the applied force by reducing the shaft length, adding or subtracting weight from either end or by modifying the applied force, but you cannot alter the spine of a specific shaft without altering the diameter, wall thickness or material composition. 

Of course we often speak of spine as if we could defy physics but the truth is all we alter with our efforts is the reaction of the shaft...

Anybody want to discuss how an arrow which is rotating only bends in one plane when shot with a release, but in another when shot with fingers. Or how the design of the string loop or the type of rest used influences the amount of bend the shaft will demonstrate.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Marcus said:


> OK so field14, you whole basis on whether point weight makes a difference to spine is some program that is programed to tell you that "you shaft is too stiff add weight". ROFLMAO. That is not scientific proof. Go back and try to come up with something better.
> 
> As a FITA shooter I have shot and scored well with
> X10 500's 120gr points
> ...



OK, Marcus.

Here's what to do then, based upon your statement in red above:

Take a 1713 shaft of the SAME LENGTH and point weight as your "super shooters" above...shoot 'em at 90 meters even in calm weather, and show us pictures of your GROUPS. Heck we can fatten them up a bit...even an 1814 with 110 grains...what the heck...

THEN....take some....FAT SHAFTS....say 2512's, 2613, or even X=cutters or line jammers...with 110 grain points in them...and shoot those too at 90 meters....

KEEP YOUR POUNDAGE the same, DL the same...just change arrows to the two mentioned...you know, "shoot pretty much anything acccurately with them."

THEN....as a control...shoot a FULL 28 field round with your "normal setup", whatever that is, since ANYTHING works accurately...

THEN, without changing ANYTHING on the bow excepting going to the same 1713 arrows with 110 grain points...shoot a full field round with them and score it.

THEN, same with the 2512, 2613, or 30X shafts...shoot a full 28 and score it.

Now, lastly...go tell Dave Cousins and the vast majority of TOP END world-class shooters that SPINE DOESN"T MATTER for 'accurate shooting' and then tell them too, that the "computer programs" are meaningless, because with today's bows...you can shoot pretty much ANYTHING accurately...and you don't NEED TO BOTHER with the spine charts or any of that stuff...it DOESN"T matter anyways.

Very interesting..Probably 99% of us all these years should have been just grabbing any ole arrow and shooting it out of our bows, since gee whiz, just about ANYTHING will shoot accurately these days...no need to fret about the spine of the arrow...

Please include pictures of the supposed identical or close to identical "groups" you get with super weak and super stiff shafts, along with your "normal" arrow grouping...whichever are your "normal" arrows.

You are virtually saying that "one size fits all" so tell the arrow manufacturers to quit making such a selection of shafts too...cuz all along they've been cheating us....because with today's bows....you can pretty much shoot ANYTHING accurately."

field14:wink::tongue:


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

You are one of those who are a waste of time discussing complex equipment setups with arn't you field14?
1) It's ALWAYS windy here. However I would have no issue at all doing what you suggested. I would expect the heavier shaft to perform better than the 1713 because it's heavier, and heavier arrows will group better than lighter arrows. However at 90m there will be advantages in using the thin little 1713 arrow because of it's reduced drag. Thus for best results at that distance I would look for a compromise between the 2 arrows.
As I said I have done extensive testing with arrows ranging over 8 spine sizes and the results are very inconclusive. I shot good scores with all the arrows at 90m in relation to my ability at the time. 
I tried doing all the BS anal arrow selection crap that is pushed by the 'equipment guru pro guys' over the years and it's just a waste of time. I have tried it all with an open mind, best answer was to pick a setup based on the selection charts. Put in a heavy point and go out and shoot rounds and practise my aiming and release use. 

2) I would be more than happy to discuss with this an intelligent pro shooter like Dave Cousins. I am sure discussing it with him in person we would have similar opinions on this. 

3) I never said don't use the charts. I did say that the computer software telling you add weight to weaken a shaft spine is incorrect. Pay attention and don't make up my side of the discussion. That's impolite. 

Now what I am saying is this. 
What you are seeing and the results you get with your experiments and then the conclusions you are making are not correct. 
Adding weight to the points does not change the spine. End of story. It is physically impossible. You can change the amplitude of the flex by increasing point weight but you can not change the frequency of the flex. You can change the frequency by increasing the pile shaft length, however that will make the arrow react stiffer, not weaker. 

So in simple words increasing point weight will make the arrow flex a greater distance, however it still returns to it's original position at the same rate, which is what actually matters when tuning a bow. 

4) Now why does spine not matter on a modern compound bow?
You have a massive range to work in spine wise. You said
"so tell the arrow manufacturers to quit making such a selection of shafts too."
Umm, they have. 
Lets look at the recurve arrow X10 vs the Easton Lightspeed. 
The X10 has 13 sizes because spine matching is important when shooting with fingers. The Lightspeed is an arrow aimed at compound release shooting. They have 4 sizes. 
Some companies even produce arrows with a weight range of 45-70lb on them. 
Now why spine does not matter on a compound bow. 
a) The movement of the string left-right is only 2mm at the moment of release. 
b) Modern compound bows have straight nock travel which reduces the vertical flex greatly. Most bows will send an arrow out of the bow with minimal flexing. 
Because there is minimal flexing the spine will change how far out the bow the arrows are straight, and with all of them this is a very very short distance. Once the arrow is straight, spine no longer matters. 

Now what you need to do field14 is to
a) Think about what is actually happening
b) Stop regurgitating the same old wives tales that have been around this sport too long
c) Open your mind up to the possibility that maybe this information is based on research of an engineer and not "Some Pro who told me this back in the 70's".


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Marcus said:


> You are one of those who are a waste of time discussing complex equipment setups with arn't you field14?
> 1) It's ALWAYS windy here. However I would have no issue at all doing what you suggested. I would expect the heavier shaft to perform better than the 1713 because it's heavier, and heavier arrows will group better than lighter arrows. However at 90m there will be advantages in using the thin little 1713 arrow because of it's reduced drag. Thus for best results at that distance I would look for a compromise between the 2 arrows.
> As I said I have done extensive testing with arrows ranging over 8 spine sizes and the results are very inconclusive. I shot good scores with all the arrows at 90m in relation to my ability at the time.
> I tried doing all the BS anal arrow selection crap that is pushed by the 'equipment guru pro guys' over the years and it's just a waste of time. I have tried it all with an open mind, best answer was to pick a setup based on the selection charts. Put in a heavy point and go out and shoot rounds and practise my aiming and release use.
> ...


Ah,ha! now I see where you are coming from...You DO USE THE SPINE CHARTS in arrow selection...with that "formerly missing" piece of information, I now understand.

Now, a bit of advice....PLEASE...do NOT try to shoot those 1713's out of your bow! PLEASE DO NOT DO IT.....those suckers are spined for about 25 pounds with 7% points and arrows cut at 27".....You would risk injury...

I intentionally went so radically weak away from the spine charts./..hoping that you would say something that started to add up.

Always remember...stiff arrow when windy....and NEVER go WAY WEAK away from what the spine charts say.

USING THE SPINE CHARTS gets you close...about all the computer thingy does is gives you some "recommendations" and IF YOU HAVE DECENT INFORMATION...can give you a BETTER INICATOR (not a guarantee) of more success in getting something CLOSER and saving you some time an effort fooling around.

I also did agree with what you said about the spine charts running STIFF for "safety"...I've found that to be pretty true across the board as well...Normally, a release shooter can take what the spine charts say for whatever and go 2-3 arrows weaker and be pretty close...then tweak stuff (bow or other things) from there.

MOST of the TOP GUNS however, are indeed looking at the computer "ideal" matrix...and using it as ONLY A GUIDE...and NOT cutting their arrows to that...but using the tried and true...SHOOT THEM and TUNE THE BOW TO THE ARROW technique. 

Now that I know you use THE SPINE CHARTS I see more clearly.

However...the stuff I wrote before about increasing/decreasing point weight or back weight around, or tweaking POUNDAGE up or down slightly..>WORKS to PERFECTION...ESPECIALLY WITH BROADHEADS....

Frankly, I do NOT piddle with adding or removing "weight" from the string and such other 'stuff."

I understand now where you were coming from...since you ARE USING an approach to get somewhere close to the "recommended shaft sizes"...there ARE POSITIVELY MORE THAN ONE...

I've found over the years...that any shaft size you decide upon has three "sweet spots" where the arrow WILL SHOOT ITS BEST for YOU...the "weak sweet spot", the Middle "sweet spot", and the "stiff sweet spot"....and the one in the MIDDLE doesn't always shoot the best either!

Thanks for the expanded explanation of what you are driving at....I initally thought that you just indiscriminately grabbed an arrow size and went with it.

BUT...one thing....MANY of the bows that "claim" level nock travel...DO NOT HAVE IT....you gotta TUNE to FIND THAT SPOT on the bow... SOME THAT CLAIM LEVEL NOCK TRAVEL...indeed DO have level nock travel. But once you get the bow set for "level nock travel" they will shoot pretty well with pretty much any of the recommended "spine chart" arrows....and the ones "recommended" by the computer programs too.

You aren't complaining about a 1370 FITA are you? I'd sure be pretty danged happy with that! I'd of course WANT MORE....like all of us, hahahaha.

So, the CROW FLAVOR of the day for the fieldman....is VANILLA-STRAWBERRY, hahahaha.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

Medium diameter shafts like the CT Cheetah or CT Whitetail works best for me for Field .


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