# Cartel Midas or W&W Winex Riser?



## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

OK, I think I am down to these two as my riser choice. 

Winex
Pro: Well battle tested. The Winex has been used in many pro level tournaments up to and including the Olympics. Nicer paint ( I like the new silver/blue combo)
Con: Unable to try before buying, relying on reviews and pics more. Not really any cons to this other then price that I can see. 
Other:6061 Aluminum alloy (alloyed with Magnesium) makes it more ductile (able to bend or wilt under stress). Recently Win & Win moved all their riser production to China, haven't read of anything bad coming out of that move at present, just wary of the issues involved with moving a manufacturing facility.

Cartel Midas
Pro: Cartel's recent collaboration with Bow Korea has given them a lot of ability to improve this riser. Better paint (Blue and Green look great), dark wood grip looks nice, nicer graphics. Grip is similar to the Fantom which I find very good.
Con: Largely unnoticed in the Internet, few hands on reviews (those that are out there are all good - excellent though)
Other: 7001 Aluminum alloy (alloyed with Zinc) makes it harder and stronger but potentially more brittle (able to crack under stress)

About $100 price difference between these two. Both are forged and painted risers, both would need to be ordered. I like the looks of both, in fact they don't look all that different from each other. The Winex in pics may have an edge in finish but without seeing them both side by side in person I can't really tell. I think the Winex may have slightly more tiller adjustment room but the tiller adjustment mechanism is very similar (Grub screws with a pivoting dovetail). 

Just not sure I should spend the extra $100 on the Winex or put that towards my next few lessons or a set of Easton x7 or Carbon one arrows...
Pulling the trigger on something tonight though so any comments or points I am missing would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jim


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Winex


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

Succinct to be sure :smile:

Any particular reason?


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Winex is a proven design from a higher quality company. Better materials, workmanship, quality control, etc.....in my experience anyways. Don't skimp on the riser....get the best one you can at the beginning...it will stay with you for a very long time as you and the rest of your kit evolve and advance.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I have a Midas. The Midas has apparently been through at least one revision, because mine does not look exactly like the ones being offered on Lancaster, nor does it look exactly like those I've seen in photos of other Midas owners. The older revision (mine) has more of a satin anodizing instead of polished anodizing. The newer one has a little more refined machining with more curved surfaces, although the overall profile looks very similar. I paired my Midas with some Win & Win Winact carbon/wood limbs. Mine has a satin cobalt blue anodizing that matches perfectly with Shibuya's blue anodizing.















I'd be pretty surprised if the wood grip is the same as the Fantom's plastic grip, so I wouldn't base my decision on that at all unless you've actually handled a Midas grip. My daughter shoots a Fantom. I'd compare the grips, but mine has a custom grip (similar to a Jager) and I don't have the original since I bought the riser used.

I have had good luck with my Midas. It's very solid, well machined, shoots way better than I do, and looks very nice. It's also at least $100 cheaper than comparable risers from other manufacturers. However, if money were not a factor, I would have bought a Winex. Actually, if budget was completely unconstrained I'd probably have bought a Win&Win Inno Carbon, but that's just dreaming now!

Here's one thing to think about: if you save the bucks and buy a Midas, even if it shoots just as well as the Win&Win are you going to always wish you'd spent the extra cash on the more reputable brand? If the answer to that is yes, then spend the money. Quality and performance is likely quite similar and both will give great results, but the peace of mind knowing you have a tried-and-true design in the Winex might be worth the extra money to you. I'm certain the Winex is top-notch. You almost never see people selling them, which means they like them well enough to not want to part with them.

Although I'm very happy with my Midas, I'd be lying if I didn't have that little doubt in the back of my mind wondering if the Winex is actually a better riser. The snob appeal factor probably plays into it, since almost everyone that I encounter shoots a Hoyt and I feel them looking down their noses at me a little since it's "just" a Cartel. Then again, I have always enjoyed being just a little different. 

Now if I could only shoot as well as I'd like....


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's the link to the new Midas:
http://www.doosungarchery.co.kr/eng...0&page=1&catcode=100000&searchopt=&searchkey=

The pic Lancaster has is the old one. 

The new one actually looks very similar to yours with a clicker plate, I think the old one had a chromed plate and the grip was a light wood. The new one is dark wood and has a black plate. 
I was under the impression that it was a painted riser not anodized but looking at the threaded holes on yours it definitely looks anodized...

Here's another good pic of the new one in green:
http://jordansequillion.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/2012-midas-riser/


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Slightly off-topic, here's a comparison backing up my "two versions of Midas" hypothesis.









- The finish is polished and shiny on the current version. The older model is satin anodized.
- The limb pockets are very different. The current version uses the same limb alignment system as the Fantom. Mine uses the washer/spacer method for limb alignment.
- The clicker extension is very different. The older version uses an inset pocket and uses the same clicker extension plate that the Fantom does. The newer one screws on the face of the riser forward of the grip.
- The hole beneath the grip is shaped differently - the older one is more triangular.
- All of the cutouts on the current version are beveled noticeably. My older model has cutouts that are just eased or very slightly radiused.
- The sections above and below the grip that face toward the archer have been tapered and shaped on the current model. On mine, it's the same thickness from front to back.
- The portion of the riser where your fingers fall when holding it are noticeably rounded where the older model is just radiused a bit. I think the grip on the newer model sits in a machined-in pocket too, where the older model has the grip just mounted on the exterior of the riser.

In short, it looks like they're putting more machining into the current model. I suspect that this results in tiny reductions in weight besides the aesthetics. If these photos I've found are an indication, though, the finish is paint now instead of anodizing. I'd much rather have anodizing, as it's more durable, and I prefer the satin over the gloss. The only thing I wish my version had instead is that limb alignment system - that's a big improvement. Despite this, I think I actually prefer the more sturdy, less-refined older model's shape.

Just a note - my Midas riser came with a clicker extension plate that is not stock. I've since replaced it with a stock Fantom plate.

One last thing - I bought my riser from a relative of a well-known archer (Limbwalker) here on the forum. Although this wasn't John's riser, he did shoot it and described it as being a very good riser.

-Kent W.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

My blue Midas is painted, nice paint job other than easily chips which is typical of paint. Like the current picture on doosung site it also has doweled clicker plate extension. Great riser for the money and a nice shot feel with little vibration and quiet limb pocket design. With a GM-4TD held up against it shares the same proven geometry. My only qualm would be the paint being fragile, preferring anodizing.


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

Hi Kent,
I think you are right on that, if you look at the hole right under the grip on your riser, it looks like the hole is a rounded triangle whereas on the current version it is more of an oval shape.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

JimB1 said:


> Hi Kent,
> I think you are right on that, if you look at the hole right under the grip on your riser, it looks like the hole is a rounded triangle whereas on the current version it is more of an oval shape.


Oh, and mine is definitely anodized, not painted. I much prefer the anodizing, and since it's an intense cobalt blue with uncommon satin finish, it's definitely a looker. I've read somewhere that the Midas was more or less an imitation of a famous Hoyt riser. Maybe the Matrix? In any case, that post I can't seem to find indicated that the geometry was nearly identical to the Hoyt, with differences in fit/finish and the arrangement of cutouts.

The photo of the Midas on Lancaster's page seems to be somewhat of a hybrid between my old version and the latest version. Perhaps we have a "three flavors of Midas" thing going on? Scratch that - it's the latest version with a light-colored wood grip instead of dark.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

That $100 won't be as drastic when in a few years you decide to sell whichever riser you get for something else. Cartel simply doesn't have a reputation of being anything above entry-level. I'm not saying this is an accurate portrayal or if it's even fair, but when I think of Cartel I don't think of the highest quality. I'm sure they've made leaps and bounds and While that riser may be on par quality wise with others, The public perception just isn't there yet. Sort of like what Hyundai went through. You can have an amazing quality product but if your reputation is for entry-level disposable products no one is gonna believe it for a long time.

If I were buying used, I would buy the cartel. 

If I were spending the same amount of money I would look at a Samick xenotech, masters or athlete riser, too.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

MickeyBisco said:


> That $100 won't be as drastic when in a few years you decide to sell whichever riser you get for something else. Cartel simply doesn't have a reputation of being anything above entry-level. I'm not saying this is an accurate portrayal or if it's even fair, but when I think of Cartel I don't think of the highest quality. I'm sure they've made leaps and bounds and While that riser may be on par quality wise with others, The public perception just isn't there yet. Sort of like what Hyundai went through. You can have an amazing quality product but if your reputation is for entry-level disposable products no one is gonna believe it for a long time.
> 
> If I were buying used, I would buy the cartel.
> 
> If I were spending the same amount of money I would look at a Samick xenotech, masters or athlete riser, too.


Totally a good point. Resale value of my Midas will probably not be fantastic. Still, I bought mine used so I got a good deal. A Winex would definitely have higher resale value and would lose less of its value over time. Perception of Cartel's products is just as stated: generally cheap, lower quality. They do make some good products, but the rickety ones' reputations spill over onto the good ones. I put the Midas in the "good" column.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

The 7001 series aluminum used in the Midas has some pretty impressive properties in strength at 98000 psi tensile. Will have to do some comparisons to the 6000 series aluminum used in other risers.
www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_aluminum-zinc-magnesium_alloy_7001

www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_aluminum-magnesium-silicon_alloy_6061


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

From what I've seen the Midas _is _ a good riser, so I'm glad my statement was taken as intended. It's just very difficult to span the entire range of prices and still maintain a reputation of quality. I think the only reason W&W has been able to do this is because they let Sebastian flute shoulder the burden of the entry level gear. 

We see it every day when people ask about cartel stabilizers or sights. The answer isn't "they're really good"... It's " they're okay for the price, but flimsy"...

Samick and Hoyt both offer entry level products that aren't quite as inexpensive as the cartel entry-level stuff, they just don't include as many options ...there's no upper riser bushings for limb suppressors or anything like that on the Excel ( or Horizon) they're basic, but well-built.


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

... and the winner is Winex!!!

Just placed my order for one in blue along with a Shibuya Dual Click. My local shop couldn't get either of those so I got the Kaya K1 limbs (#26 long), Shibuya DX plunger, string and some other odds and ends there tonight when I went up for practice. 

Also, they has a old style Cartel Midas in stock but in 23", similar to Kent's but in Red. Anodized finish and all. It was actually pretty nice but the machining could have been a little nicer, visible waviness in the the pockets where the CNC marks didn't get cleaned up too well. Grip was different from the Fantom, a little narrower thumb webbing area and rounded more in the palm. Actually fit better then the Fantom. Overall pretty nice and their price was dirt cheap, I was surprised, I guess they got a deal on old stock from Great tree or something. 

Thanks for all the help with this. I'll post some pics once everything arrives...
-Jim


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## hoytshooter15 (Aug 13, 2012)

I would certainly go with W&W Winex. It is a great and high reputed riser. While with Cartel I never have been a fan of their products I have heard that their riser's plunger threads strip in a matter of weeks from just shooting. Win&Win has a reputation for having really nice products. I would go with the Winex


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

hoytshooter15 said:


> While with Cartel I never have been a fan of their products I have heard that their riser's plunger threads strip in a matter of weeks from just shooting. Win&Win has a reputation for having really nice products. I would go with the Winex


I don't know about that. I shoot a Midas, my daughter shoots a Fantom, and six other kids on her JOAD team shoot Fantoms. Not one of them has even a hint of troubles with plunger threads stripping. I think that statement is based more on opinion than fact. Basically, I follow this formula for Cartel products: if it has parts designed to move on a repeated basis, stay away from Cartel. Things that are relatively stationary are probably OK. For example - sights. I'd never buy a Cartel sight because so many of them are so rickety. Risers, on the other hand, have few moving parts, and those that do move only have to move when you align the bow. Once they're set you probably won't mess with them again, so risers are OK from Cartel. 

Having said this, if I was buying new, I would buy the Winex ten times out of ten unless the $100 higher price was just too much to swallow. Buying used, the decision gets a little tougher, which is why I have my Midas.

Congrats JimB1! That's going to be a nice setup!


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## hoytshooter15 (Aug 13, 2012)

I can name many people I know who have Cartel risers with stripped plunger threads. Maybe it's user error but all I know is multiple people have the same issue. That being I would go with the more reputable company. Not saying it's a bad riser, just saying it has some issues.


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## Blades (Jun 25, 2012)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I can name many people I know who have Cartel risers with stripped plunger threads. Maybe it's user error but all I know is multiple people have the same issue. That being I would go with the more reputable company. Not saying it's a bad riser, just saying it has some issues.


Stripped the plunger thread in the riser? Or the threads _of_ the plunger. Ive had a cartel plunger snap on me, and can fully agree that it was a piece of junk. But if you are stripping threads on a riser, you're doing it wrong.... Not saying it didn't happen, I am just curious of the circumstances. 

My coach is sponsored by Cartel. The midas is nice, and I just recommended the Fantom to a new shooter. Both are fine risers.


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