# Ifaa Professionalism In Archery



## aussiearcher

Possibly one of the most important moves in Field Archery to date. 

This new approach has the potential to allow our game to move to a well deserved level.

Well done to the executive of IFAA :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## I BOW 2

Sure is kinda confusing on what is and isn't considered a PRO archer tho???.

Randall have you started packing yet? :wink: Ken


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## aussiearcher

I BOW 2 said:


> Sure is kinda confusing on what is and isn't considered a PRO archer tho???.Ken


hahahah...only to those who can't read.....well, read "English" anyway.....they way it was written....not "uperized"

And yes...i'm nearly on my way back...got another shoot this Saturday though...a full FITA..

talk to ya soon eh.


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## jonabxring

*I ain't as smart as most of you guys...*

Just in case there are others who may not get the whole picture (surely I'm not the only one)...can someone explain this in general or elementary form...perhaps give a good example. Please forgive me for my ignorance and lack of experience...I do want to understand, unfortunately I don't know what ifaa stands for.


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## JAVI

jonabxring said:


> Just in case there are others who may not get the whole picture (surely I'm not the only one)...can someone explain this in general or elementary form...perhaps give a good example. Please forgive me for my ignorance and lack of experience...I do want to understand, unfortunately I don't know what ifaa stands for.


http://www.ifaa-archery.org/index.htm

International Field Archery Association 


 As from 01 May 2008 the IFAA will level the playing field. All archers who are paid up members of Full or Associate IFAA members will be deemed to be Amateurs irrespective of their previous status.  As of May 1, 2008 any member of the IFAA or associate organization i.e. the NFAA will be considered to hold amateur status regardless of their previous status. 
 The IFAA will start a formal database for the registration of Professional archers. The IFAA plans to make such a database accessible via the IFAA web site. there will be a database of all who register as professionals and this information will be available to all on the IFAA web site
 Any archer who is found by IFAA to contravene the definition of Amateur status will be considered to be a Professional archer. An Amateur archer or a tournament organiser may now lodge a report to IFAA against an archer who has contravened the definition of amateur status.  Any archer found to be in violation of the requirements for amateur status will be considered a professional immediately. Any amateur or tournament manager may report the violation directly to the IFAA
 Only Professional archers who have registered with the IFAA as Professional archers may enter IFAA sanctioned archery tournaments as a Professional. At this stage registration with the IFAA will be free of charge. Archers who are Professional archers but are not registered with the IFAA may NOT compete in IFAA sanctioned archery events either as an amateur or as a professional. Only professionals who have registered with the IFAA may compete as professional in sanctioned IFAA events. If you are a professional who has not registered as such with the IFAA you may not compete in any IFAA event; even as an amateur.
 All IFAA sanctioned tournaments must allow for professional competition in the Freestyle Unlimited, Freestyle Limited Compound and Freestyle Limited Recurve shooting styles for men and women in the Adult division. No other styles are recognized for the Professional archer and archers who shoot as professionals in other than those three styles in non-IFAA sanctioned events may only compete as Professionals in those styles in IFAA sanctioned events. E.g. an archer who shoots as a Professional in the Bowhunter Unlimited or similar style in a non-IFAA event may only shoot as a Professional in the Freestyle Unlimited style in an IFAA sanctioned event.  All IFAA sanctioned events must make available competition slots for the above listed styles for both adult men and women. If you want to compete in a sanctioned event and are a registered professional, you must compete in one of the three styles listed above.
 IFAA is encouraging Style Team competitions at IFAA sanctioned events for Amateurs as well as for Professionals in Corporate Team, see new IFAA Policy Article 16. However, it should be noted that any archer shooting for a Corporate Team is deemed under the Status rules to be a Professional, see new IFAA Policy Article 15.  Team competition is being encouraged for both amateurs and professionals. If your team is corporate sponsored then you will be considered a professional and required to compete as such in all IFAA sanctioned events. 
 IFAA hopes that this recognition of the realities of our sport where some archers are full time professionals but most are aspiring amateurs, who may be encouraged by support from other sources, will encourage a wider participation in our sport to the ultimate benefit of all.

See the attachment in post one for the defination of amateur status...


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## jonabxring

*hummm...don't know what to think*

Thank you Javi... I read the attachment to post #1
Still don't know how to paste and transfer ect....anyway, still need to search the IFAA website for additional information ie. how to contact the IFAA Secretary; not that I intend to.
I have some concerns...and hope to get some feedback from more experienced archers and/or PRO's as to where this is all going or has it always been like this?
"...any action to become Professional..."---My goal is to become a professional, everything I do is in an effort to reach that goal. While I have only been shooting for 4 yrs. and am in my opionion not yet, but stiving to become...does that make me a professional? Of course not; unless I really enjoy starving to death as the "pros eat my lunch".
I'm a member of (was actually, expired May, will renew next month) of USA Archery which I think is NAA and if not then I am a member of NAA which is honored by NFAA which is apparently honored by IFAA...(wow, thats a mouth full)...If at some point I am "deemed" registered, why "must" I register? Could I possibly be disqualified for winning "Vegas" (yeah...I know...) if I shot as an amatuer and it was determined that I was "deemed" registered, yet hadn't registered as a pro? (I interpet the answer as yes)
If I shot (as an amatuer) at vegas and won contingency money that would deem me a professional, and then I won, would I get the professional bonus?
10$ is 10$ and it's certainly better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick...regarding sponsorship...I don't have any, but would probably jump all over any assistance with gas or even a hamburger, I usually sleep in my truck...if I obtained assisitance with a motel (especially a day early for rest and/or practice) would that "deem" me a professional? I interpret yes.
I have other thoughts, but am running out of space...what do those of you who "know" think? What is the purpose? Will it lead to a more level "playing field", higher payouts, greater sponsorship compensation, longer trials or struggles as an amatuer...in the end what does the future hold for someone hopeing to reach the "professional" level? Your thoughts and forsights would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## JAVI

jonabxring said:


> Thank you Javi... I read the attachment to post #1
> Still don't know how to paste and transfer ect....anyway, still need to search the IFAA website for additional information ie. how to contact the IFAA Secretary; not that I intend to.
> I have some concerns...and hope to get some feedback from more experienced archers and/or PRO's as to where this is all going or has it always been like this?
> "...any action to become Professional..."---My goal is to become a professional, everything I do is in an effort to reach that goal. While I have only been shooting for 4 yrs. and am in my opionion not yet, but stiving to become...does that make me a professional? Of course not; unless I really enjoy starving to death as the "pros eat my lunch".
> I'm a member of (was actually, expired May, will renew next month) of USA Archery which I think is NAA and if not then I am a member of NAA which is honored by NFAA which is apparently honored by IFAA...(wow, thats a mouth full)...If at some point I am "deemed" registered, why "must" I register? Could I possibly be disqualified for winning "Vegas" (yeah...I know...) if I shot as an amatuer and it was determined that I was "deemed" registered, yet hadn't registered as a pro? (I interpet the answer as yes)
> If I shot (as an amatuer) at vegas and won contingency money that would deem me a professional, and then I won, would I get the professional bonus?
> 10$ is 10$ and it's certainly better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick...regarding sponsorship...I don't have any, but would probably jump all over any assistance with gas or even a hamburger, I usually sleep in my truck...if I obtained assisitance with a motel (especially a day early for rest and/or practice) would that "deem" me a professional? I interpret yes.
> I have other thoughts, but am running out of space...what do those of you who "know" think? What is the purpose? Will it lead to a more level "playing field", higher payouts, greater sponsorship compensation, longer trials or struggles as an amatuer...in the end what does the future hold for someone hopeing to reach the "professional" level? Your thoughts and forsights would be appreciated. Thank you.


As it stands today, you have no worry unless you intend to compete in IFAA sanctioned events. If U.S. organizations such as the NFAA decide to adopt the same provisions to their bylaws then you may have to make a decision but until that unlikely event happens, I would not worry.

I cannot speak authoritatively as to the IFAA’s intentions but the way I read the text it appears they are seeking to make a clear line of demarcation between amateur and professional putting an end to the flip-flopping that takes place today. Amateurs should not receive sponsorships and compete for cash prizes, when they do they cross the line and become professionals… at least according to the new IFAA bylaws… Those amateurs who participate in IFAA events and are currently receiving sponsorship now must make a decision. I applaud the IFAA for taking this stand, but I fear it will not be popular in the U.S. where many amateurs receive greater sponsorships than most professionals will.


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## aussiearcher

jonabxring said:


> Thank you Javi... I read the attachment to post #1
> Still don't know how to paste and transfer ect....anyway, still need to search the IFAA website for additional information ie. how to contact the IFAA Secretary; not that I intend to.
> I have some concerns...and hope to get some feedback from more experienced archers and/or PRO's as to where this is all going or has it always been like this?
> "...any action to become Professional..."---My goal is to become a professional, everything I do is in an effort to reach that goal. While I have only been shooting for 4 yrs. and am in my opionion not yet, but stiving to become...does that make me a professional? Of course not; unless I really enjoy starving to death as the "pros eat my lunch".
> I'm a member of (was actually, expired May, will renew next month) of USA Archery which I think is NAA and if not then I am a member of NAA which is honored by NFAA which is apparently honored by IFAA...(wow, thats a mouth full)...If at some point I am "deemed" registered, why "must" I register? _The reason you must registar, as pointed out in the first paragraph....there are NO PROFESSIONALS...the slate has been wiped clean in order to establish a truly Professional Division_ Could I possibly be disqualified for winning "Vegas" (yeah...I know...) if I shot as an amatuer and it was determined that I was "deemed" registered, yet hadn't registered as a pro? (I interpet the answer as yes)_In Vegas, there are ..NO PROFESSIONALS, we shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP rounds so this isn't an issue_
> If I shot (as an amatuer) at vegas and won contingency money that would deem me a professional, and then I won, would I get the professional bonus?_Again NO PROFESSIONALS in Vegas_ 10$ is 10$ and it's certainly better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick...regarding sponsorship...I don't have any, but would probably jump all over any assistance with gas or even a hamburger, I usually sleep in my truck...if I obtained assisitance with a motel (especially a day early for rest and/or practice) would that "deem" me a professional? I interpret yes._The same terminology has been in place "forever"..if you received assistance for a motel, then you were suppose to notify the association of the assistance.....does that stop you from shooting as an amatuer, I think not, but rules are rules. Should you keep that information to yourself...only you know that answer_
> I have other thoughts, but am running out of space...what do those of you who "know" think? What is the purpose? Will it lead to a more level "playing field", higher payouts, greater sponsorship compensation, longer trials or struggles as an amatuer...in the end what does the future hold for someone hopeing to reach the "professional" level? Your thoughts and forsights would be appreciated. Thank you.


As previously stated...this is a new approach to "Professionalism" when it comes to the International Field Archery Association. In the past the progression of a Pro Division has been stifled by various factors and the resultant small number of participants was a reflection of an archaic attitude . This new approach will allow for a completely different approach for those who choose to shoot as a "Professional". 
You may, or may not be aware, that in the past, the "Pro" purse was made up of just the entry fee, less some admin fees...not much to cover costs....but this was ONLY in the IFAA.

IFAA was established as an AMATUER Association....yes, they made allowances for 'Pro's"...but the structure didn't lend itself to one which had welcoming arms for anyone who shot as a Pro. In fact, on several occasions, the Pro's were awarded their "checks" before the cubs, very petty and embarassing, but true nevertheless. Mind you, it isn't too bad in the USA, as most Pro's are NFAA and a lot of folk in the NFAA didn't even know there was a World Governing body (eeekkk...a world outside the USof A...go on).:wink:

Attitudes have changed...the corporate dollar is out there, the executive of IFAA are establishing a World Class entity, with World Class events worthy of Corporate Sponsorship.

Field Archery as a whole will benifit enormously from this move, if supported totally.


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## ShakesTheClown

All I can see this accomplishes is to drive a bigger wedge between the NFAA and the IFAA.

I understand the desire to grow the Pro division, but this doesn't seem the right approach to me. Seems to me that forcing people never works half as well as enticing them.

In many sports, bowling and golf come to mind, amateurs can compete for and win cash prizes. (NCAA golfers cannot, of course.)

Saying that sponsored shooters should automatically be forced to turn pro demonstrates to me a lack of understanding why bow companies sponsor shooters. Winning tournaments or shooting great scores is only one reason. Ultimately they give bows away to help sell more bows. The right person for that bow may not be a pro. It might be the kid behind the counter, the local coach/guru or maybe just a guy that helps the local rep at shows and events. Hardly pro material, but maybe a great candidate for a shirt, hat and a free bow.

I don't see the NFAA giving this any consideration.


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## aussiearcher

ShakesTheClown said:


> All I can see this accomplishes is to drive a bigger wedge between the NFAA and the IFAA.Where's the wedge, I haven't seen one of late.
> 
> I understand the desire to grow the Pro division, but this doesn't seem the right approach to me. Seems to me that forcing people never works half as well as enticing them.Having rules and detailing a clear understanding to those rules isn't forcing people...it's just covering areas where some might choose to slip under the screen
> 
> In many sports, bowling and golf come to mind, amateurs can compete for and win cash prizes. (NCAA golfers cannot, of course.)
> 
> Saying that sponsored shooters should automatically be forced to turn pro demonstrates to me a lack of understanding why bow companies sponsor shooters. Winning tournaments or shooting great scores is only one reason. Ultimately they give bows away to help sell more bows. The right person for that bow may not be a pro. It might be the kid behind the counter, the local coach/guru or maybe just a guy that helps the local rep at shows and events. Hardly pro material, but maybe a great candidate for a shirt, hat and a free bow.All of the above has been factered in i'm sure, when it's all said and done...don't like the changes...don't shoot IFAA..
> 
> I don't see the NFAA giving this any consideration.




UMMMM!!!...the NFAA..*is* a member of the IFAA..therefore, if a NFAA member wants to participate in a IFAA event..them's the rules..can't have your cake and eat it to...:wink:


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## Marcus

By sponsorship, what level does that extend to? Shop shooters, factory staff or those receiving money from outside sources? (or all of course)


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## jonabxring

*that helps*

thank you, thank you, and thank you again...good helpful answers and explanations above and certainly cleared up a few questions and concerns I had.
I obviously don't see the bigger picture that you guys see...I do hope that the decision makers are lead by a desire to promote "archery" (I must act on this trust and faith until I have the wisdom and experience to understand and see more) and not to just promote one organization. Hopefully there will not be a wedge (as there is too much of this already as can be witnessed by someone as inexperienced as myself between something as basic as "traditional" vs "compound" or "pins" vs "scopes" and it carries over into competition between many organizations that we are all familiar with).
Hopefully it could provide a "bridge" instead of a wedge (wich it could turn out to be) that will strengthen at least both the above mentioned organizations; whether dependently or interdependently of/on each other.
Thanks again for the information and insight...and hopefully things will continue to improve, if not for us then perhaps for the young man or woman whom has never picked up or shot a bow and has no idea how much they love it yet.
Maybe I'm naieve or too optimistic (I think of myself as a realist) anyway; heres hoping


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## Marcus

If it's what I think it is I think it is a good move and encourages me to have a seriously good look at playing IFAA again.


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## aussiearcher

Marcus said:


> If it's what I think it is I think it is a good move and encourages me to have a seriously good look at playing IFAA again.


Welcome aboard Marcus...there's a big world out there....IFAA has become userfriendly :wink::wink:


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## Grey Eagle

As I read it, if you so much as receive a hat from a manufacturer, with the intent being on advertising for that manufacturer, you're no longer an Am in the eyes of the IFAA.

This one is going to be a tough sell on this continent.


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## JAVI

Dennis 

I doubt that is the intent of the change, but rather to put a stop to the amateur who is collecting thousands of dollars from manufacturers in equipment, travel expenses and entry fees. 

But I agree it won't sit well over here...


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## Grey Eagle

Mike,

As with you, I am sure the intent is not to be so limiting as my example laid out. However, that appears to be the letter of the law..... is there any interpetation available?

Is this change really intended to force people out of the Am divisions, or force them to stop accepting help 

I'd love to get a clear understanding, in layman's terms, of the reasoning and intent behind this change.


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## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Dennis
> 
> I doubt that is the intent of the change, but rather to put a stop to the amateur who is collecting thousands of dollars from manufacturers in equipment, travel expenses and entry fees.
> 
> But I agree it won't sit well over here...


 Interesting to note that expenses can be paid to an amateur via the Organizing body itself.

"For reasons of advertising" is going to require a little clarification. In essence any give away is done for advertising potential, but I suspect that the wording was chosen to be directed at the amateur who wittingly or unwittingly becomes a manufacturers agent in the field.


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## Marcus

aussiearcher said:


> Welcome aboard Marcus...there's a big world out there....IFAA has become userfriendly :wink::wink:


It's a great game for sure, just got to find shoots around here.  Very FITA orientated here in Vic.


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## ShakesTheClown

aussiearcher said:


> UMMMM!!!...the NFAA..*is* a member of the IFAA..therefore, if a NFAA member wants to participate in a IFAA event..them's the rules..can't have your cake and eat it to...:wink:



I think we saw in Watkins Glen in 03 just how important the IFAA is to the majority of the NFAA members. What percentage of those attending actually chose to participate in the IFAA as well as the NFAA? It was a pretty small number. I recall a shooter that shot well enough to slide in the top 10 in the NFAA but jumped all the way to a medal in the IFAA because all those above him didn't participate. Doesn't say much for the relevancy of winning a medal at the World's.

Different equipment rules. Different shooting rules. And, now you're going to force a huge number of NFAA members to shoot pro? I see a pretty big wedge there.

When will archery organizations realize they are the sellers and the membership are the buyers? There is a lot of competition for the buyers time and dollars.

If you want to grow, make it attractive, not more difficult.


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## ShakesTheClown

Watkings Glen was, of course, '04 not '03.


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## Two Bears

"Any archer who is found by IFAA to contravene the definition of Amateur status will be considered to be a Professional archer. An Amateur archer or a tournament organiser may now lodge a report to IFAA against an archer who has contravened the definition of amateur status. Any archer found to be in violation of the requirements for amateur status will be considered a professional immediately. Any amateur or tournament manager may report the violation directly to the IFAA "


So if you are a "VIOLATOR" you are considered to be a "professional" ?  
Remember take five?


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## JAVI

Two Bears said:


> "Any archer who is found by IFAA to contravene the definition of Amateur status will be considered to be a Professional archer. An Amateur archer or a tournament organiser may now lodge a report to IFAA against an archer who has contravened the definition of amateur status. Any archer found to be in violation of the requirements for amateur status will be considered a professional immediately. Any amateur or tournament manager may report the violation directly to the IFAA "
> 
> 
> So if you are a "VIOLATOR" you are considered to be a "professional" ?
> Remember take five?


And pray tell what does amateur status have to do with a violation of a standing rule about moving a sight during a competition?


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## Two Bears

Well lets see............If you violate a rule ....even a standing rule....even for sights.....as an amature and..... OH you won't get it anyway.


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## Two Bears

JAVI, It was a joke........


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## Guest

you guys must be reading something I am not, this rule just clairifies who is classed as a Pro, in order to be considered a Pro you will have to register as a Pro in an IFAA even or have registered as a Pro in another archery org. At no time was sponsorship equated to Pro you have to have registered as a Pro. Yuo could have been paid millions of dollars to shoot archery but if you never registered as a Pro in any tournament you are not a Pro. An event like Vegas has no Pro division so it won't matter but if you register in an ASA as a Pro then you will have to register as a Pro in an IFAA event as well, it is quite clear.


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## aussiearcher

I think some of you might have missed the boat...as I see it..

The IFAA is re-establishing the foundation for a *truly Professional Division*.These are the rules....pertaining to that competition.

There isn't any point going on how it will and will not work...in the States or anywhere else.

Fact of the mater is...*this is the game*...if your not into shooting IFAA, then it won't matter one little bit. If you have reservations...don't shoot.

This is a positive move...with a more open mind, you should be able to envisage what might come of this...

With respect to some of the above...Watkins Glenn :embara: 

Remember...there were plenty of NFAA members who were ignorant to the fact that IFAA even existed....:embara:
Some of these folk were absolutely spewing about not being informed that they could have competed in an 'International' event.:sad:and won:sad:

whose fault is that:wink:


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## ShakesTheClown

aussiearcher said:


> With respect to some of the above...Watkins Glenn :embara:
> 
> Remember...there were plenty of NFAA members who were ignorant to the fact that IFAA even existed....:embara:
> Some of these folk were absolutely spewing about not being informed that they could have competed in an 'International' event.:sad:and won:sad:
> 
> whose fault is that:wink:


Well, I was there and don't anyone that didn't know about it.

Maybe the IFAA needs to find a way to become more relevant to NFAA members.


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## jonabxring

*Hope I didn't cause a problem*

Went back and re-read a few things...specifically, item #7 in the original post. It would appear that the IFAA is completely aware that there are some "full time" pros, yet most are "aspiring amateurs" who are encouraged by support from other organizations. Re-read the "attachment" in Javi's original post about the "parameters" of recieving financial help and support. It was enlightning...what I got was an archer can compete and maintain amateur status with "no out of pocket expense" (within limits up to 500 EURO's...whatever that is) Anyway, what I got was an amateur could "possibly" compete at "no personal expense"; but he/she cannot make a penny..."no financial gain". 
It seems the "spirit" is to protect the amateur, the "aspiring archer", while understanding we could all use a little support. So many of the previous posts have been "all around" the truth and have helped me understand more of what I have read. Comments about "flip flopping"...starting out as an "amateur" organization ect. and of course there is no denying that "this is the game" if you want to play it, I never really wanted to "debate or argue" the rules, just hopefully understand...and I can probably say that I got the most out of this thread as I would "bet money" that I was certainly the least informed 24 hrs ago:embara:
Thanks for the examples and time spent helping me understand especially regarding "Vegas"...(I don't know if it's WAF of NFAA or what...and don't want to open another can of worms) anyway, I realize that there was no "pro class" there but to hopefully end on a "humorous note"....some of those boys were "Professionals", I recognized em from thier pictures in magazines and stuff, I heard rumor of a "professional bonus" paid to the winner if they were a "registered professional". While I may have "tipped" a few back in my life; I've never (well, there was one time) had enough that I would walk up to Dave Cousins and ask "Hey man, aren't you that amateur that won Vegas in 08"?
Some of the best advise I've read is "if there is a question, notify the Secretary in writting"...since I hate that kind of stuff, I thought I'd ask you guys...thanks for the response and I hope my lack of education and experience hasn't caused some of you old "bulls" to want to pull your hair out.
See you down the road...keep em in the middle...:darkbeer:


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## Guest

you are looking into this way more than requiered, in the rule the ametur definition applies to IFAA sanctioned events only, so if you win money in vegas it doesn't matter at all since it isn't a sanctioned IFAA event, the only IFAA events in North America would the NAFAC shoot, since the NFAA nationals do not follow the IFAA shooting rules ie animal round it wouldn't be a sanctioned event, but to win money there you will need to register as a Pro


key words- IFAA santioned event, and registered as a Pro



and as for Watkins Glen I was there as well ans shot with 12 different people that week and none of them even knew what the IFAA was only that there was a bunch of out of towners in this year.


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## JAVI

Ok why don't we take them one at a time...:wink:

*Purpose and Spirit*

The purpose and spirit of the Rules is to maintain the distinction between Amateur archery and Professional archery and to keep the Amateur sport as free as possible from the abuses, which may follow from uncontrolled sponsorship and financial incentives.

It is considered necessary to safeguard Amateur archery, which is largely self-regulating with regard to the Rules of competition, so that it may be equally enjoyed by all Amateur Archers.

Seems straightforward to me they want to maintain a distinct separation between the amateur and professional archer. 
What do y’all think their saying?


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## JAVI

*Definition of Amateur Status:*

1. An Amateur Archer may work in an archery shop and receive a salary.

2. An Amateur Archer must not take any action for the purpose of becoming a Professional Archer, including entering into an agreement, written or oral, with a sponsor or Professional agent.

3. An Amateur Archer must not hold or retain membership of any Professional Archers’ Association.

4. An Amateur Archer may compete in IFAA archery tournaments for prize money but must not accept a prize (other than a medal or trophy) or prize voucher of retail value in excess of Euro 500 or the equivalent in another currency. This limit applies to the total value of prizes or prize vouchers received by an Amateur Archer in IFAA sanctioned tournaments over one calendar year. A prize or prize voucher may not be exchanged for cash. However an Amateur Archer may submit a prize voucher to the national association with which he is registered and thereafter be reimbursed from the value of that voucher in accordance with 5. a. below.

5. An Amateur Archer must not accept expenses, in money or otherwise, from any source to compete in an archery tournament or exhibition other than provided for in this Article:

a. An Amateur Archer may receive expenses, not exceeding the actual expenses incurred, to compete in an archery tournament as follows:

i. Paid from a member of his family or a legal guardian or

ii. Paid by the national association of which he is a member.

iii. Expenses shall only be paid for the actual duration of the tournament as well as for reasonable travelling time and practice days.

b. An Amateur Archer may accept archery equipment or any other gift (e.g. complimentary sight-seeing trips, hunting trips, etc.) provided no advertising is involved. Such equipment or gift may not be exchanged for cash

c. An Amateur Archer who is invited to take part in a tournament for reasons unrelated to archery skill may receive reimbursement of his actual expenses.

d. An Amateur Archer who is participating in an exhibition in aid of a recognised charity may receive reimbursement of his actual expenses, provided that the exhibition is not run in connection with another archery event.

e. An Amateur Archer may receive payment or compensation for actual expenses incurred when giving instruction in performing archery.

f. An Amateur Archer must not use his archery skill or reputation to:

i. Promote, advertise or sell anything or for any financial gain.

ii. Obtain payment, compensation, personal benefit or any financial gain for allowing his name or likeness to be used for the advertisement or sale of anything.

iii. Obtain payment, compensation, personal benefit or any financial gain for a personal appearance at an archery tournament or archery exhibition.

6. An Amateur Archer may compete in a Pro-Am event (i.e. WBHC) without compromising his Amateur status so long as he complies with paragraph 4 above.


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## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Ok why don't we take them one at a time...:wink:
> 
> *Purpose and Spirit*
> 
> The purpose and spirit of the Rules is to maintain the distinction between Amateur archery and Professional archery and to keep the Amateur sport as free as possible from the abuses, which may follow from uncontrolled sponsorship and financial incentives.
> 
> It is considered necessary to safeguard Amateur archery, which is largely self-regulating with regard to the Rules of competition, so that it may be equally enjoyed by all Amateur Archers.
> 
> Seems straightforward to me they want to maintain a distinct separation between the amateur and professional archer.
> What do y’all think their saying?


 Lemme take a crack at this one. Folks if we're gonna webcast field archery and keep it clean all around the globe, we best be getting a handle on the money flow from the get go. We cannot let it turn into the two legged billboard fest the Nord Amerikans have made of it or no body will be able to tell who's shootin fer what.


----------



## field14

Hutnicks said:


> Lemme take a crack at this one. Folks if we're gonna webcast field archery and keep it clean all around the globe, we best be getting a handle on the money flow from the get go. We cannot let it turn into the two legged billboard fest the Nord Amerikans have made of it or no body will be able to tell who's shootin fer what.


Can a amateur archer "sell shirt space" to vendors? THAT is going on...and I've witnessed some negotiations of parents doing this selling of so many square inches of shirt space to archery manufacturers to place their patch or logo onto said archers' shirts! Seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears! Unbelievable...kids, even! Walking billboards...for sale.....

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> Ok why don't we take them one at a time...:wink:
> 
> *Purpose and Spirit*
> 
> The purpose and spirit of the Rules is to maintain the distinction between Amateur archery and Professional archery and to keep the Amateur sport as free as possible from the abuses, which may follow from uncontrolled sponsorship and financial incentives.
> 
> It is considered necessary to safeguard Amateur archery, which is largely self-regulating with regard to the Rules of competition, so that it may be equally enjoyed by all Amateur Archers.
> 
> Seems straightforward to me they want to maintain a distinct separation between the amateur and professional archer.
> What do y’all think their saying?


I guess I don't see why it's so important to protect "Amateur" archery. The home of the true amateur archer was FITA prior to the Olympics allowing pros. The term amateur archer meant something then. Now, it's only important for those shooting in the collegiate ranks.

The NFAA constitution doesn't even use the term amateur in describing it's non-pro shooting divisions. Even when describing the procedures for a pro that decides to leave the professional ranks it never uses the term amateur.

I've always viewed the NFAA adult divisions, not so much as amateur, but more an open or non-pro division. Perhaps because my background includes some time shooting FITA back in the day when being an amateur was important. And, maybe, because side bets and money shoots were always a part of field archery in my area.

Anyway, I don't know that I care what the IFAA does. I find it unfortunate that the IFAA has so little relenvance here. I had hoped that the IFAA and the NFAA could find a way minimize the differences between the two organizations. This is a step in the opposite direction.

Also, FWIW, I don't have a problem with building up the pro division or drawing a little more distinction between the pro and amateur. I just think this is more than a bit heavy handed. It won't do anything, as far as I can see to increase participation and that is what we really need to be concentrating on.

The worst of the rules, in my mind, is 5b. Giving an adult, or a deserving youth, a bow or a shirt or a hat...for whatever reason...doesn't make the recipient a pro. Everyone makes way too much of who's being sponsored and at what level.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

field14 said:


> Can a amateur archer "sell shirt space" to vendors? THAT is going on...and I've witnessed some negotiations of parents doing this selling of so many square inches of shirt space to archery manufacturers to place their patch or logo onto said archers' shirts! Seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears! Unbelievable...kids, even! Walking billboards...for sale.....
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Any idea what it costs parents for their kids to take a run a a Jr USAT position? 

Not condoning anything, just saying.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> Lemme take a crack at this one. Folks if we're gonna webcast field archery and keep it clean all around the globe, we best be getting a handle on the money flow from the get go. We cannot let it turn into the two legged billboard fest the Nord Amerikans have made of it or no body will be able to tell who's shootin fer what.


Sponsorship issues aren't limited to North America.

Last year I ran into a top FITA shooter at a tournament just back from, I believe, one of the world cup events. He had some interesting patches on his shirt that I had not seen before. I asked, and yes they were sponsors of the tournament he had just come from and he was required to put them on his shirt.


----------



## JAVI

ShakesTheClown said:


> I guess I don't see why it's so important to protect "Amateur" archery. The home of the true amateur archer was FITA prior to the Olympics allowing pros. The term amateur archer meant something then. Now, it's only important for those shooting in the collegiate ranks.
> 
> The NFAA constitution doesn't even use the term amateur in describing it's non-pro shooting divisions. Even when describing the procedures for a pro that decides to leave the professional ranks it never uses the term amateur.
> 
> I've always viewed the NFAA adult divisions, not so much as amateur, but more an open or non-pro division. Perhaps because my background includes some time shooting FITA back in the day when being an amateur was important. And, maybe, because side bets and money shoots were always a part of field archery in my area.
> 
> Anyway, I don't know that I care what the IFAA does. I find it unfortunate that the IFAA has so little relenvance here. I had hoped that the IFAA and the NFAA could find a way minimize the differences between the two organizations. This is a step in the opposite direction.
> 
> Also, FWIW, I don't have a problem with building up the pro division or drawing a little more distinction between the pro and amateur. I just think this is more than a bit heavy handed. It won't do anything, as far as I can see to increase participation and that is what we really need to be concentrating on.
> 
> The worst of the rules, in my mind, is 5b. Giving an adult, or a deserving youth, a bow or a shirt or a hat...for whatever reason...doesn't make the recipient a pro. Everyone makes way too much of who's being sponsored and at what level.


The NFAA removed the word Amateur from the by-laws when they bought the WAF... it seemed to conflict with the everyone shoot for money concept of the WAF...:wink:

The NFAA could care less about any archery professional... it is an amateur club that allows the pros to hang-out with them for a fee... 

I'm not going to travel to Europe to compete in the IFAA pro events, but I do find it interesting and wonder if and/or when the new rules will reach the U.S. organizations..


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Any idea what it costs parents for their kids to take a run a a Jr USAT position?
> 
> Not condoning anything, just saying.


Yup it's pricey. But if you look in there there is provision for expenses being paid by the Governing body. There is nothing in there that prevents a heavily discounted bow from making it into the amateurs hands. They seem to have taken a direct action against the amateur who is shilling for the sponsor.

This is a step at controlling the money flow in a sport to prevent the scenarios that Field mentions.

Makes me want to move to Europe and shoot there:wink:


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> Yup it's pricey. But if you look in there there is provision for expenses being paid by the Governing body. There is nothing in there that prevents a heavily discounted bow from making it into the amateurs hands. They seem to have taken a direct action against the amateur who is shilling for the sponsor.
> 
> This is a step at controlling the money flow in a sport to prevent the scenarios that Field mentions.
> 
> Makes me want to move to Europe and shoot there:wink:


I'm assuming that the provision for expenses to be paid by the governing body is there so they can field teams for the Worlds. It's vague and doesn't say that they will fund anything, just that they could.

And, I agree with Javi, the NFAA has done nothing to turn the pro division into what it should be...real pros, shooting for real money.

But, again, what's so special about amateurs that they need to be protected? Amateur bowlers and golfers have competed for money for decades. What's wrong with an amateur shilling for an archery company? How does that hurt anyone or take away from the pros?


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## jonabxring

*be careful what you ask for*

My instincts say stay away from this one, but here goes....JAVI, you asked "what do ya'll think they are saying" and since I really respect you and believe you are trying to help...I'll respond. Please understand that I intend to offend no one.
"purpose and spirit" you mentioned a distinction between amateur and professional "archers". They refered to it as a distinction between amateur and professional "archery"...this could be argued to be the same thing, yet in the "spirit" of archery....
We all know that "if your not having fun, your doing it wrong" the amateur sport of archery...the pure thrill of enjoyment and discovery; a hobby, a pastime, a new passion. Fun with the family or friends; perhaps friendly competition to see who this months "champion of the universe" is.
Professional archery (thru some's eyes) in the "spirit" of professionalism. A little different. There are winners and those who didn't come in first place. The role models, the poster men and women whom inspire younger aspiring archers to shoot what they shoot, to be like them. To be recognized and sponsored, to be paid and if truely "blessed" to earn a living doing what they truely love.
The amateur...for the fun of it. The professional...perhaps additional reasons.
Abuse...(I deleted examples of what this could be as I felt is was too negative and it was depressing me)
I hope we reach a point where we "Know" what they are saying...until then, I think they are saying that is the amateur sport and archer that needs to be protected as they are the foundation and hope for tomorrows professinals. It is the larger mass whom shoot for "fun and enjoyment" that will produce the "aspiring archers with hope" which will produce tomorrows "professional". While all are connected, "amateur archery" must be protected so that eventually "professional archery" and archers can achieve even higher rewards.
I'm making myself sick...it's cut and dried as you said. They are defining and seperating amateur from professional in an effort to protect amateur archery from abuse that may happen. (I don't really know how yet, but I'm sure ya'll and /or they do). Evidence of abuse (cheating? unfair advantage?) are evident almost everywhere because winning has either become more important than having fun or because it's no longer fun enough to develope the skill to become a professional archer.


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> I'm assuming that the provision for expenses to be paid by the governing body is there so they can field teams for the Worlds. It's vague and doesn't say that they will fund anything, just that they could.
> 
> And, I agree with Javi, the NFAA has done nothing to turn the pro division into what it should be...real pros, shooting for real money.
> 
> But, again, what's so special about amateurs that they need to be protected? Amateur bowlers and golfers have competed for money for decades. What's wrong with an amateur shilling for an archery company? How does that hurt anyone or take away from the pros?


Okay you're essentially asking for speculation, I'll bite.

I don't really want to get into the NFAA thing here, I don't think anyone alive right now doesn't know they're the Typhoid Mary of archery. So for the sake of speculation (and remember we are talking about IFAA here NOT US Field Archery) Lets assume we are working with an entity that is able to set up a series of webcast tourneys and has plans to grow the sport from that aspect.

We have not gotten to what they are going to do for the Pros over there yet as that is outside the scope of this thread (I Believe)

They have in fact opened a door to level the competition for the amateur divisions by eliminating or controlling the flow of cash into the ranks directly from sponsors. I see this as a move by a proactive organization to head off attempts by manufacturers to blatantly saturate a sport with their logos et al at any opportunity. They have gone to great pains to put this together and in their shoes I'd be damned if I'd let XYZ Corp pollute my video link with their logos or other promos free of charge. They have taken the bull by the horns here and it pretty much looks like if you want to inject money into the sport you had better partner up with the org. If you're thinking of backdooring your way into a free promo well, you'll not be doing that here.

Now if you follow along, that allows potential sponsors the opportunity to go above board and one level up. Rather paying for patches for amateurs donate that money into a global travel fund via your local org. There is nothing in there that prohibits a competitors discount for equipment being offered.

I'm thinking that this is an open invitation for local orgs everywhere to step up and take responsibility for the governance and administration of amateur archery, while at the same time making it possible for the guy with a 5 year old setup to believe they can compete without looking down the line at the guy with 4 grand worth of free equipment and not a care in the world.


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Okay you're essentially asking for speculation, I'll bite.
> 
> I don't really want to get into the NFAA thing here, I don't think anyone alive right now doesn't know they're the Typhoid Mary of archery. So for the sake of speculation (and remember we are talking about IFAA here NOT US Field Archery) Lets assume we are working with an entity that is able to set up a series of webcast tourneys and has plans to grow the sport from that aspect.
> 
> We have not gotten to what they are going to do for the Pros over there yet as that is outside the scope of this thread (I Believe)
> 
> They have in fact opened a door to level the competition for the amateur divisions by eliminating or controlling the flow of cash into the ranks directly from sponsors. I see this as a move by a proactive organization to head off attempts by manufacturers to blatantly saturate a sport with their logos et al at any opportunity. They have gone to great pains to put this together and in their shoes I'd be damned if I'd let XYZ Corp pollute my video link with their logos or other promos free of charge. They have taken the bull by the horns here and it pretty much looks like if you want to inject money into the sport you had better partner up with the org. If you're thinking of backdooring your way into a free promo well, you'll not be doing that here.
> 
> Now if you follow along, that allows potential sponsors the opportunity to go above board and one level up. Rather paying for patches for amateurs donate that money into a global travel fund via your local org. There is nothing in there that prohibits a competitors discount for equipment being offered.
> 
> I'm thinking that this is an open invitation for local orgs everywhere to step up and take responsibility for the governance and administration of amateur archery, while at the same time making it possible for the guy with a 5 year old setup to believe they can compete without looking down the line at the guy with 4 grand worth of free equipment and not a care in the world.


Exactly... they are adjusting the playing field... It's a win for the pros who hopefully will see bigger purses and a win for "REAL" amateurs who no longer will have to compete with pros who hide behind amateur status while collecting sponsorships from manufacturers.


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## rock monkey

JAVI said:


> Exactly... they are adjusting the playing field... It's a win for the pros who hopefully will see bigger purses and a win for "REAL" amateurs who no longer will have to compete with pros who hide behind amateur status while collecting sponsorships from manufacturers.


harrumph:darkbeer:



if ya dont know what 'harrumph' means, go rent 'blazing saddles' and watch it......a few times.


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## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks, I think you're making some far-reaching assumptions. Specifically, that archery manufacturers will redirect the money they're currently giving amateurs in cash, equipment, etc. into larger pro pots and other wonderful things. Wishful, thinking. Those are marketing dollars and they will spend them where they think they'll get the most bang for the buck. Tournaments may or may not benefit but they certainly wouldn't get all of that money.

As for the NFAA being the Typhoid Mary of archery, I certainly don't agree with that. The NFAA gets a bad rap here on AT but out in the real world people have a different take on things. I reside in a state with one of the larger NFAA memberships and where you can still find a field shoot on a regular basis. You'd be suprised how few people here know or care about things like the great AT arrow size debate or any of the other manufactured dramas here on AT.

I won't deny that field archery has been in decline for a long time and the NFAA at some point must stop concentrating on indoors and do something to promote field archery. But the fact is that the NFAA is still part of two of the biggest tournaments out there...Vegas and Redding. Two well loved and well attended tournaments. Redding, btw, although being called a 3D tournament actually evolved from field. Not some desire to shoot 3D targets at marked yardage. It's held on a field range, at a field club.

The IFAA, on the other hand, is arguably the weakest of all the tournament organizations. I think it's safe to say that in Europe more people shoot FITA field than the IFAA version of field archery. FITA as whole is way bigger. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if the NFAA, a member of IFAA, was not bigger than the rest of the organization combined. I think the IFAA has their North American Championships here. That may be the only IFAA rules tournament in the US.

I don't think their interest is so much protecting the amateur ranks but rather buidling up the pros by forcing some on the margins to step up. Plus, I doubt that anyone cares to see a webcast of amateurs or care whats on their shirts. I know Europe televises some archery...all FITA as far as I know, where no distinction is made between pros and amateurs and they all seem to wear sponsors shirts or team shirts with sponsors logos on them.

If I've brought up the NFAA a bit too much for you in this discussion, I'm sorry, but the first things people talked about when they saw the IFAA's new policy was that it would be great if the NFAA adopted it as well. I happen not to agree and I'm disappointed that the IFAA and NFAA have moved further apart.


----------



## aussiearcher

ShakesTheClown said:


> Hutnicks, I think you're making some far-reaching assumptions. Specifically, that archery manufacturers will redirect the money they're currently giving amateurs in cash, equipment, etc. into larger pro pots and other wonderful things. Wishful, thinking. Those are marketing dollars and they will spend them where they think they'll get the most bang for the buck. Tournaments may or may not benefit but they certainly wouldn't get all of that money.
> 
> As for the NFAA being the Typhoid Mary of archery, I certainly don't agree with that. The NFAA gets a bad rap here on AT but out in the real world people have a different take on things. I reside in a state with one of the larger NFAA memberships and where you can still find a field shoot on a regular basis. You'd be suprised how few people here know or care about things like the great AT arrow size debate or any of the other manufactured dramas here on AT.
> 
> I won't deny that field archery has been in decline for a long time and the NFAA at some point must stop concentrating on indoors and do something to promote field archery. But the fact is that the NFAA is still part of two of the biggest tournaments out there...Vegas and Redding. Two well loved and well attended tournaments. Redding, btw, although being called a 3D tournament actually evolved from field. Not some desire to shoot 3D targets at marked yardage. It's held on a field range, at a field club.
> 
> The IFAA, on the other hand, is arguably the weakest of all the tournament organizations. I think it's safe to say that in Europe more people shoot FITA field than the IFAA version of field archery. FITA as whole is way bigger. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if the NFAA, a member of IFAA, was not bigger than the rest of the organization combined. I think the IFAA has their North American Championships here. That may be the only IFAA rules tournament in the US.
> 
> I don't think their interest is so much protecting the amateur ranks but rather buidling up the pros by forcing some on the margins to step up. Plus, I doubt that anyone cares to see a webcast of amateurs or care whats on their shirts. I know Europe televises some archery...all FITA as far as I know, where no distinction is made between pros and amateurs and they all seem to wear sponsors shirts or team shirts with sponsors logos on them.
> 
> If I've brought up the NFAA a bit too much for you in this discussion, I'm sorry, but the first things people talked about when they saw the IFAA's new policy was that it would be great if the NFAA adopted it as well. I happen not to agree and I'm disappointed that the IFAA and NFAA have moved further apart.


wow!!and to think this one started with" Hutnicks, I think you're making some far-reaching assumptions"....:zip::wink:

I'm going with Javi on this one..:wink:Exactly... they are adjusting the playing field... It's a win for the pros who hopefully will see bigger purses and a win for "REAL" amateurs who no longer will have to compete with pros who hide behind amateur status while collecting sponsorships from manufacturers.


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Hutnicks, I think you're making some far-reaching assumptions. Specifically, that archery manufacturers will redirect the money they're currently giving amateurs in cash, equipment, etc. into larger pro pots and other wonderful things. Wishful, thinking. Those are marketing dollars and they will spend them where they think they'll get the most bang for the buck. Tournaments may or may not benefit but they certainly wouldn't get all of that money.
> 
> As for the NFAA being the Typhoid Mary of archery, I certainly don't agree with that. The NFAA gets a bad rap here on AT but out in the real world people have a different take on things. I reside in a state with one of the larger NFAA memberships and where you can still find a field shoot on a regular basis. You'd be suprised how few people here know or care about things like the great AT arrow size debate or any of the other manufactured dramas here on AT.
> 
> I won't deny that field archery has been in decline for a long time and the NFAA at some point must stop concentrating on indoors and do something to promote field archery. But the fact is that the NFAA is still part of two of the biggest tournaments out there...Vegas and Redding. Two well loved and well attended tournaments. Redding, btw, although being called a 3D tournament actually evolved from field. Not some desire to shoot 3D targets at marked yardage. It's held on a field range, at a field club.
> 
> The IFAA, on the other hand, is arguably the weakest of all the tournament organizations. I think it's safe to say that in Europe more people shoot FITA field than the IFAA version of field archery. FITA as whole is way bigger. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if the NFAA, a member of IFAA, was not bigger than the rest of the organization combined. I think the IFAA has their North American Championships here. That may be the only IFAA rules tournament in the US.
> 
> I don't think their interest is so much protecting the amateur ranks but rather buidling up the pros by forcing some on the margins to step up. Plus, I doubt that anyone cares to see a webcast of amateurs or care whats on their shirts. I know Europe televises some archery...all FITA as far as I know, where no distinction is made between pros and amateurs and they all seem to wear sponsors shirts or team shirts with sponsors logos on them.
> 
> If I've brought up the NFAA a bit too much for you in this discussion, I'm sorry, but the first things people talked about when they saw the IFAA's new policy was that it would be great if the NFAA adopted it as well. I happen not to agree and I'm disappointed that the IFAA and NFAA have moved further apart.


Well, as I said you are asking for speculation, you got it.

Feel free to bring up the NFAA all you wish. I just want readers of this thread to realize that it is about IFAA definitions of Amateur not NFAA policy. You know and I know that as long as the NFAA stays in existance by sucking at the teat of manufacturers best interest theres not a chance they will consider a ruling of this sort. Hades will field an olympic bobsledding team first.

I'm happy your state is doing so well ("Outer Limits Field Association"??) but by and large most are not. As to the IFAA having a lesser membership than NFAA that is worth looking into, It would be some kind of record for a major org to have less members than the NFAA.

Yes FITA is the world leader in organized and regulated archery and I suspect the IFAA is looking very closely at their operations model, and it is showing. Pity some of the other Orgs cannot see fit to do the same.

You said it yourself there the two, biggest tournaments no longer have to do with field archery. I wonder if the IFAA has any plans to move to a 20M indoor format??

As for where the money goes. At this moment I don't know if it's moving to the pro class or not. I do not really care at this point in time. When they publish the Professional Archers Guidelines we can debate that then. I do Doubt you will see a surge of amateurs jumping up to the pro ranks due to this. I do not think it is in fact a left handed attempt to swell the pro ranks but instead a method to clean up the amateur ranks. A well defined line between the two is absolutely necessary for Archery to be taken seriously and this is an attempt to create it.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> Well, as I said you are asking for speculation, you got it.
> 
> Feel free to bring up the NFAA all you wish. I just want readers of this thread to realize that it is about IFAA definitions of Amateur not NFAA policy. You know and I know that as long as the NFAA stays in existance by sucking at the teat of manufacturers best interest theres not a chance they will consider a ruling of this sort. Hades will field an olympic bobsledding team first.
> 
> I'm happy your state is doing so well ("Outer Limits Field Association"??) but by and large most are not. As to the IFAA having a lesser membership than NFAA that is worth looking into, It would be some kind of record for a major org to have less members than the NFAA. Keep in mind that the NFAA had a 30 year head start on the IFAA. Field archery in the US was already at or near it's zenith when the IFAA was founded.
> Yes FITA is the world leader in organized and regulated archery and I suspect the IFAA is looking very closely at their operations model, and it is showing. Pity some of the other Orgs cannot see fit to do the same. How can you say they are looking at FITA when FITA does not differnetiate between pros and amateurs?
> You said it yourself there the two, biggest tournaments no longer have to do with field archery. I wonder if the IFAA has any plans to move to a 20M indoor format?? That isn't exactly what I said, or was trying to say. Redding is little more than a field tournament with 3d targets. I think the NFAA should be taking a long look at the west coast "safari" tournments.
> 
> As for where the money goes. At this moment I don't know if it's moving to the pro class or not. I do not really care at this point in time. When they publish the Professional Archers Guidelines we can debate that then. I do Doubt you will see a surge of amateurs jumping up to the pro ranks due to this. I do not think it is in fact a left handed attempt to swell the pro ranks but instead a method to clean up the amateur ranks. A well defined line between the two is absolutely necessary for Archery to be taken seriously and this is an attempt to create it.


Reread post #9 by aussiearcher, this exactly an attempt to build a strong pro division in the IFAA. And, I'm not opposed to that. I just don't agree with some of the approach.

You mentioned that this makes you want to move to Europe and shoot there...you do know the FCA is an IFAA member, right? Don't they follow the IFAA's lead?


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Reread post #9 by aussiearcher, this exactly an attempt to build a strong pro division in the IFAA. And, I'm not opposed to that. I just don't agree with some of the approach.
> 
> You mentioned that this makes you want to move to Europe and shoot there...you do know the FCA is an IFAA member, right? Don't they follow the IFAA's lead?


Gos alone knows what the FCA is following these days


FITA differentiates quite well, there is no pro division period, you don't have the opportunity to shoot for cash.

I'm withholding judgment up until IFAA makes a solid statement as regards to a PRO division. The OZlander may be right and I've missed the boat, but I believe that we should looks at this as defining the amateur status outright rather than as defining the pro class by inference.


----------



## JAVI

*Definition of Professional Status:*

1. A Professional Archer must register with the IFAA as a Professional Archer to be able to compete as a professional in IFAA sanctioned tournaments. Such registration shall be handled through the IFAA Secretary, who may delegate such function to others.

2. An archer shall be deemed to have registered as a Professional Archer when he first contravenes the ‘definition of Amateur status’.

3. An archer who is a member of a Corporate archery team shall be deemed to have registered as a Professional Archer.

4. A Professional Archer may compete in the Amateur division if no Professional division is advertised for an IFAA sanctioned event.

5. The IFAA Secretary shall maintain a register of Professional Archers. A listing of the register will be accessible on the IFAA website for reference purposes only. The authoritative register will be that held by the IFAA Secretary.

6. Once registered as or deemed to be a Professional Archer, an archer shall be deemed to remain as such until reinstated as an Amateur Archer by the IFAA Executive Council.

:wink:


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## JAVI

*Decision on a Breach*

1. The responsibility to maintain Amateur or Professional status shall lie with the archer.

2. If a possible breach of the Amateur status by a person claiming to be an Amateur Archer comes to the attention of the IFAA, it is a matter for the IFAA to decide whether a breach has occurred. Each case will be investigated to the extent deemed appropriate by the Vice- President and considered on its merits. The decision of the Vice-President as to a breach shall be communicated to the person and shall be final, subject to a referral by the person of the Vice-President’s decision to the Executive Council.

:wink::wink:


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Gos alone knows what the FCA is following these days
> 
> 
> FITA differentiates quite well, there is no pro division period, you don't have the opportunity to shoot for cash.
> 
> I'm withholding judgment up until IFAA makes a solid statement as regards to a PRO division. The OZlander may be right and I've missed the boat, but I believe that we should looks at this as defining the amateur status outright rather than as defining the pro class by inference.


But many manufacturers pay contengency for FITA events around the world...:tongue:


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## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> But many manufacturers pay contengency for FITA events around the world...:tongue:



Quite a lot of cash. Make USAT and you'll probabaly get a bow. And, World Cup pays cash prizes. I believe some others as well.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> But many manufacturers pay contengency for FITA events around the world...:tongue:


Thats true but you'll not be putting dinner on the table with it. A qorld class FITA shooter incurs pretty stiff expenses on the way and I doubt if many (if any) come out in the black.

FWIW I believe that contingency should be administered by the GB as well.


----------



## JAVI

ShakesTheClown said:


> Quite a lot of cash. Make USAT and you'll probabaly get a bow. And, World Cup pays cash prizes. I believe some others as well.


Didn't Diamond Jim make arrangements for a cash payout to the U.S. Oly archers if they win?


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> *Definition of Professional Status:*
> 
> 1. A Professional Archer must register with the IFAA as a Professional Archer to be able to compete as a professional in IFAA sanctioned tournaments. Such registration shall be handled through the IFAA Secretary, who may delegate such function to others.
> 
> 2. An archer shall be deemed to have registered as a Professional Archer when he first contravenes the ‘definition of Amateur status’.
> 
> 3. An archer who is a member of a Corporate archery team shall be deemed to have registered as a Professional Archer.
> 
> 4. A Professional Archer may compete in the Amateur division if no Professional division is advertised for an IFAA sanctioned event.
> 
> 5. The IFAA Secretary shall maintain a register of Professional Archers. A listing of the register will be accessible on the IFAA website for reference purposes only. The authoritative register will be that held by the IFAA Secretary.
> 
> 6. Once registered as or deemed to be a Professional Archer, an archer shall be deemed to remain as such until reinstated as an Amateur Archer by the IFAA Executive Council.
> 
> :wink:


Yes I was rather hoping they would flesh that out a little and perhaps throw in a code of conduct and "guidelines for competitors". Time will tell.

I somehow don't think all the wannabee's are out burning their "Pro Staff" Polos just yet:wink:


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Thats true but you'll not be putting dinner on the table with it. A qorld class FITA shooter incurs pretty stiff expenses on the way and I doubt if many (if any) come out in the black.
> 
> FWIW I believe that contingency should be administered by the GB as well.


Oh I think I could buy a couple of steaks and a bottle of beer or two with these funds... not to mention what Mathews or Hoyt pay http://www.eastonarchery.com/company/contingency


----------



## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> Didn't Diamond Jim make arrangements for a cash payout to the U.S. Oly archers if they win?


I don't know about that but what the bow companies pay will buy more than dinner and an airplane ticket.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

I will give the IFAA credit for putting their money (or someone's money ) where their mouth is...

http://www.europroarchery.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/main.htm


----------



## JAVI

ShakesTheClown said:


> I will give the IFAA credit for putting their money (or someone's money ) where their mouth is...
> 
> http://www.europroarchery.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/main.htm


That's been the point all along...:wink: They are doing something positive to promote professional archery while taking steps to protect the amateur...


----------



## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> That's been the point all along...:wink: They are doing something positive to promote professional archery while taking steps to protect the amateur...


As I've said from the beginning, I'm all for promoting professional archery. Long over due.

I just have issues with their definitions of amateur. I don't believe a free bow or bit of cash makes you a pro. Under their rules even a shop shooter could be considered a pro.

I also don't see a Senior, or Veteran to use the IFAA term, Pro division. That is another problem.

That being said, I will be watching this tournament closely and hoping for the best.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Oh I think I could buy a couple of steaks and a bottle of beer or two with these funds... not to mention what Mathews or Hoyt pay http://www.eastonarchery.com/company/contingency


I want to go over your books Javi First, isn't the Easton Money and the Hoyt money the same? I thought the Hoyt contingency came out of the same Easton account. I'd like to know if that is true or not.

Even with the amounts shown take the travel, and expenses on the road I used to call it a grand a week when away. The number of times you DONT win and come up short and by and by I don't think you'll see too many FITA shooters moving to Monaco anytime soon.

Once again I'd still like to see contingency money administrated by a 3rd party just to keep everyone honest:wink:


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> As I've said from the beginning, I'm all for promoting professional archery. Long over due.
> 
> I just have issues with their definitions of amateur. I don't believe a free bow or bit of cash makes you a pro. Under their rules even a shop shooter could be considered a pro.
> 
> I also don't see a Senior, or Veteran to use the IFAA term, Pro division. That is another problem.
> 
> That being said, I will be watching this tournament closely and hoping for the best.


 I think thats where the term agreement with a sponsor comes into play. If someone gives me a bow just so I can go out and shoot that's one thing if that bow is contingent upon me providing some form of WORK for that sponsor it becomes very much a different animal. 

I think the real break over point, is are you shooting as a sole concern or is your stepping up to the line representing more than just yourself.

There are more than a few Genesis bows donated to NASP but I hardly think those kids need be applying for IFAA pro cards just yet:wink:


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> I want to go over your books Javi First, isn't the Easton Money and the Hoyt money the same? I thought the Hoyt contingency came out of the same Easton account. I'd like to know if that is true or not. Totally separate deals.
> 
> Even with the amounts shown take the travel, and expenses on the road I used to call it a grand a week when away. The number of times you DONT win and come up short and by and by I don't think you'll see too many FITA shooters moving to Monaco anytime soon. No different than any other venue. Few archers make any money at this.
> Once again I'd still like to see contingency money administrated by a 3rd party just to keep everyone honest:wink:


Keep them honest how? It's no one's business but the company the shooter and the IRS.


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Keep them honest how? It's no one's business but the company the shooter and the IRS.


 I'd have to disagree there. Every other sport keeps a very close watch over how sponsorship and contingency money flow around, most have learned the hard way that leveraged money can be a tool to maneuver around an organizing body.


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> I want to go over your books Javi First, isn't the Easton Money and the Hoyt money the same? I thought the Hoyt contingency came out of the same Easton account. I'd like to know if that is true or not. according to the link I posted this is specific to Easton/Beman arrows, hoyt would be another deal.
> 
> Even with the amounts shown take the travel, and expenses on the road I used to call it a grand a week when away. The number of times you DONT win and come up short and by and by I don't think you'll see too many FITA shooters moving to Monaco anytime soon. there is the rub, some are making expenses and appearence monies for competing plus any winning monies. Others like myself are self funded, and therefore less likely to appear in Monaco or a lot of other places. I and many other pros have to pick and choose our tournaments based on time off and available funding.
> 
> Once again I'd still like to see contingency money administrated by a 3rd party just to keep everyone honest:wink:



You want to look at my books?  I became a pro to take advantage of the deductions for expenses and that's a good thing because there aren't many profits...


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> I think thats where the term agreement with a sponsor comes into play. If someone gives me a bow just so I can go out and shoot that's one thing if that bow is contingent upon me providing some form of WORK for that sponsor it becomes very much a different animal.
> 
> I think the real break over point, is are you shooting as a sole concern or is your stepping up to the line representing more than just yourself.
> 
> There are more than a few Genesis bows donated to NASP but I hardly think those kids need be applying for IFAA pro cards just yet:wink:


I believe this clause addresses the free bow thingy....

An Amateur Archer may accept archery equipment or any other gift (e.g. complimentary sight-seeing trips, hunting trips, etc.) provided no advertising is involved. Such equipment or gift may not be exchanged for cash

I read this to mean... 

As long as the gifting of equipment to the amateur is not contingent upon attendance at tournaments, making appearances on behalf of the company or lending their name and/or image to the promotion of that company then there is no contradiction to the amateur status.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> You want to look at my books?  I became a pro to take advantage of the deductions for expenses and that's a good thing because there aren't many profits...


 I think that was my point. Sprt of like the old saying we had about how to make a small fortune as a racing driver....start off with a big fortune:wink:



JAVI said:


> I believe this clause addresses the free bow thingy....
> 
> An Amateur Archer may accept archery equipment or any other gift (e.g. complimentary sight-seeing trips, hunting trips, etc.) provided no advertising is involved. Such equipment or gift may not be exchanged for cash
> 
> I read this to mean...
> 
> As long as the gifting of equipment to the amateur is not contingent upon attendance at tournaments, making appearances on behalf of the company or lending their name and/or image to the promotion of that company then there is no contradiction to the amateur status.


 I see that the same way, seems fairly clear cut and dried. Shoot the bow do not shill for the corp, you'll be fine, just fine.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> I see that the same way, seems fairly clear cut and dried. Shoot the bow do not shill for the corp, you'll be fine, just fine.



But the problem is that it doesn't say that. It just says that a gift is ok if it's not linked to advertising. What constitutes advertising? Wearing a shooters shirt for a local shop or your favorite bow company? Is it ok if you bought it but not ok if it was given to you?

You can interpet it any way you like but ultimately it means whatever the IFAA says it means.

Your analogy about NASP doesn't even come close since the gift was not to an individual but the program itself. The kids took no ownership.

But, if a shop gives a young hotshot a bow, or even just a discounted bow and gives him a shop shirt with instructions to wear it, then that is advertising for the shop and does not meet the letter of the law.

Common sense would say this kid is no pro but the rules could easily be interpreted otherwise.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> I'd have to disagree there. Every other sport keeps a very close watch over how sponsorship and contingency money flow around, most have learned the hard way that leveraged money can be a tool to maneuver around an organizing body.


I'm not so sure how or what could be accomplished by that, but I do believe that most of the organizations do have detailed knowledge of the manufacturers contingency programs.

The incentives written into the individual shooters contracts, probably not.


----------



## rock monkey

just do it the great american way.....sue if you dont get your way.:zip:

the line between pro and amature was drawn by one organization.

the clear as mud way the american orgs run things have made the distinction between amature and pro exist only in word and entry fee. the majority of the mirage of rules is from the special interest, make me my own class people.

is it right for a pro that finishes consistantly in the lower half of the top 10 in every tournament make less in sponsorship and prize money than someone shooting open B or the lower half of MBO in the same tournaments?, no, its not. is it right for an 'im afraid to shoot pro and look bad' semi-pro make more than a full pro?, nope.

the money in the 'amateur' ranks is getting out of hand. it's gotten to the point where you cant read a thread about someone making accusations or pointing out cheating to make an extra buck or whining because they were shorted a quarter for finishing 27th. you want more attendance and better payouts, put the money into the pro ranks, pay only those who put their money into the pot. payout goes only so deep. didnt make it?, bummer. maybe you should try harder. if you dont want to swim in the deep end, be happy with a trophy.


the ifaa set the rules for playing in the deep end of the pool...it's their pool. dont like it, dont swim in it.


my only modification to the sponsorship/logo issue is what i have stated before. no more than 1 logo displayed for manufacturer/retailer on one piece of clothing with a maximum of 2 pieces. shirt and hat or hat and quiver. hat and pants or shirt and pants. equipment is limited to the logo of the manufacturer only.




there's one more option.........take your ball and make your own game.


----------



## JAVI

I doubt that the document can be written that would contain every imaginable scenario for gifting equipment to an amateur. Moreover, even if it could why would anyone bother; no one is going to complain about the 15 year old who is finishing in 108th place. Now let that same kid slaughter the competition by 30 points and show up in a shirt touting 26 archery manufacturers with $11,000 in equipment on the bow rack and bragging about all his sponsors, then you might have a brow raised in question.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> I doubt that the document can be written that would contain every imaginable scenario for gifting equipment to an amateur. Moreover, even if it could why would anyone bother; no one is going to complain about the 15 year old who is finishing in 108th place. Now let that same kid slaughter the competition by 30 points and show up in a shirt touting 26 archery manufacturers with $11,000 in equipment on the bow rack and bragging about all his sponsors, then you might have a brow raised in question.


Are you suggesting that sposorship and money can buy you wins? You know better than that. :wink:

The rule as written is pretty specific, except that it doesn't define what the IFAA considers advertising. I think they need to clean that up.

Again, my stance is that a shooter that receives a bow, shirt and hat from a shop or a company and uses these things at a tournament is not a pro. Strictest definition of 5b suggests otherwise, at least until the IFAA comments.

As far as the whole money thing, to this point so few people in the entire world make enough at this archery thing that I don't see how it could possibly matter to anyone. Sure, archery is keeping a few guys from getting a real job but most everyone else, at every level is spending way more than they are making. 

How many amateurs out there are really getting more than a little free equipment. I don't think it's as many as everyone seems to think. Of course, I don't do IBO or ASA and I don't know what goes on there.


----------



## JAVI

Sponsorship in and of itself cannot buy anyone a win, but having sponsorship can make it easier to win...


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> But the problem is that it doesn't say that. It just says that a gift is ok if it's not linked to advertising. What constitutes advertising? Wearing a shooters shirt for a local shop or your favorite bow company? Is it ok if you bought it but not ok if it was given to you?
> 
> You can interpet it any way you like but ultimately it means whatever the IFAA says it means.
> 
> Your analogy about NASP doesn't even come close since the gift was not to an individual but the program itself. The kids took no ownership.
> 
> But, if a shop gives a young hotshot a bow, or even just a discounted bow and gives him a shop shirt with instructions to wear it, then that is advertising for the shop and does not meet the letter of the law.
> 
> Common sense would say this kid is no pro but the rules could easily be interpreted otherwise.


 The minute you are instructed to do something in exchange for the item it become a matter of commerce. Trade has occurred thats not a new thing in this world.

The NASP analogy is perfect it is a bow given with no expectations or conditions there's your behavior model.




ShakesTheClown said:


> I'm not so sure how or what could be accomplished by that, but I do believe that most of the organizations do have detailed knowledge of the manufacturers contingency programs.
> 
> The incentives written into the individual shooters contracts, probably not.


 You can accomplish a lot using money for influence. You can stack votes on rule submissions and changes you can arrange protests against other brands competitors, Why you can even get an arrow ruling overturned with a touch of the dial


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Sponsorship in and of itself cannot buy anyone a win, but having sponsorship can make it easier to win...


I have to disagree here. Money cannot buy _*talent*_ but it sure can buy a win. It can allow someone who elsewise would never have managed to get into a position to take a tournament to be in that place. Or to look at it in another light that same money denied a potential competitor somewhere the opportunity to take that win.


----------



## JAVI

Common sense may say that the local hotshot isn’t a pro but the moment they accept compensation for their skill in shooting or their attendence at a competition they become none other. 

While that doesn’t mean they are able to compete with the best in their class, it does in fact make them a paid shooter. The amount of compensation shouldn’t matter in the moment. 



After all they only had to say no…


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> I have to disagree here. Money cannot buy _*talent*_ but it sure can buy a win. It can allow someone who elsewise would never have managed to get into a position to take a tournament to be in that place. Or to look at it in another light that same money denied a potential competitor somewhere the opportunity to take that win.


Read it again...:wink:


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Read it again...:wink:


Texas Grammer vs Canadian?? I think the Vibrating Harlequin has worn me down:wink:


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Texas Grammer vs Canadian?? I think the Vibrating Harlequin has worn me down:wink:


My wife says I'm sometimes too cryptic... :wink:

Money cannot buy talent, but it can make it possible to win. 

As I tell those I coach, you cannot win if you don’t enter competitions. But that isn’t all sponsorship can buy. Time and ability to practice is more easily afforded through sponsorships as well as the opportunity to compete.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> My wife says I'm sometimes too cryptic... :wink:
> 
> Money cannot buy talent, but it can make it possible to win.
> 
> As I tell those I coach, you cannot win if you don’t enter competitions. But that isn’t all sponsorship can buy. Time and ability to practice is more easily afforded through sponsorships as well as the opportunity to compete.


Access to ahem:embara: quality coaching, the benefits of traveling in the immediate peer circle, the so called intangibles that all add up and are largely due to being able to put ones self in the right circumstances. Unless you are a true Ben Hogan type there is a lot more to winning than knocking out 10's all day long.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> Common sense may say that the local hotshot isn’t a pro but the moment they accept compensation for their skill in shooting or their attendence at a competition they become none other.
> 
> While that doesn’t mean they are able to compete with the best in their class, it does in fact make them a paid shooter. The amount of compensation shouldn’t matter in the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> After all they only had to say no…


Ah, but there's the rub!

Who says they are being compensated for their shooting ability?

Maybe they're being compensated for their ability to sell bows for the local shop or territory sales rep?

If the amount of compensation doesn't matter then we're back to where this whole thing started.

If you give a guy a hat and he wears, effectively advertising for you, does that make him a pro as per rule 5b.

The point I've been trying to make from the beginning of this is that many of the "amateurs" are given equipment by shops or reps...not for their shooting ability but for their effectiveness in helping the shop or rep or factory. Selling bows, working show, running leagues...whatever.

How does that make them any more a pro than the kid behind the counter that draws a paycheck. They're basically doing the same thing just different compensation.


----------



## OneBowTie

ShakesTheClown said:


> Ah, but there's the rub!
> 
> Who says they are being compensated for their shooting ability?
> 
> Maybe they're being compensated for their ability to sell bows for the local shop or territory sales rep?
> 
> If the amount of compensation doesn't matter then we're back to where this whole thing started.
> 
> If you give a guy a hat and he wears, effectively advertising for you, does that make him a pro as per rule 5b.
> 
> The point I've been trying to make from the beginning of this is that many of the "amateurs" are given equipment by shops or reps...not for their shooting ability but for their effectiveness in helping the shop or rep or factory. Selling bows, working show, running leagues...whatever.
> 
> How does that make them any more a pro than the kid behind the counter that draws a paycheck. They're basically doing the same thing just different compensation.



bingo.....

however...its not surprising that some would go to any lengths to try and say that 3/4's of all target shooters are "pro" by ifaa definations....

but then again....most of those that do have some kind of deal actually believe that the deal is for their shooting ability.....

and then there are others that wouldnt shoot pro if you offered them money to do so.....but would rather enjoy the view and offerings without caring less what the final score reads.....

the archery compensation waters are so muddy that the smart pros would actually try to enlarge the donor pool....even if by having to grasp the definations of a org that hardly has a pro movement at all.....i believe 4 at the last world championship they offered.....interesting indeed


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Ah, but there's the rub!
> 
> Who says they are being compensated for their shooting ability?
> 
> Maybe they're being compensated for their ability to sell bows for the local shop or territory sales rep?
> 
> If the amount of compensation doesn't matter then we're back to where this whole thing started.
> 
> If you give a guy a hat and he wears, effectively advertising for you, does that make him a pro as per rule 5b.
> 
> The point I've been trying to make from the beginning of this is that many of the "amateurs" are given equipment by shops or reps...not for their shooting ability but for their effectiveness in helping the shop or rep or factory. Selling bows, working show, running leagues...whatever.
> 
> How does that make them any more a pro than the kid behind the counter that draws a paycheck. They're basically doing the same thing just different compensation.


The kid behind the counter is not at a tourney directing traffic to the store as part of the understood compensation. This is the one area that needs to be cleaned up. A manufacturer can very easily redirect money through a distributor or dealer and have a paid staff shooter in there unbeknown to anyone outside. 

If the kid picks up a bow and goes to the tourney and solicits business for the shop, then he is acting as an agent on behalf of the shop at that tourney and is now in the "Staff Pro" zone.


----------



## OneBowTie

JAVI said:


> As it stands today, you have no worry unless you intend to compete in IFAA sanctioned events. If U.S. organizations such as the NFAA decide to adopt the same provisions to their bylaws then you may have to make a decision but until that unlikely event happens, I would not worry.
> 
> I cannot speak authoritatively as to the IFAA’s intentions but the way I read the text it appears they are seeking to make a clear line of demarcation between amateur and professional putting an end to the flip-flopping that takes place today. Amateurs should not receive sponsorships and compete for cash prizes, when they do they cross the line and become professionals… at least according to the new IFAA bylaws… Those amateurs who participate in IFAA events and are currently receiving sponsorship now must make a decision. I applaud the IFAA for taking this stand, but I fear it will not be popular in the U.S. where many amateurs receive greater sponsorships than most professionals will.



this is very interesting indeed....especially seeing how the IFAA had about 4 pro's show up for their last "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" in Africa.....

like you say.....this is interesting and would love to see how the IFAA would attempt to actually define any persons compensation packages....or worse yet confuse a compensation package that has nothing to do with shooting a bow.....but more along the lines of selling such bows.....are they going to attempt to call such compensation "sponsorship" or how will they deal with that???

none the less.....i feel that the IFAA PRObably just lost about 10 entrants to its Germany "world field archery championship" 

i do feel that in archery.....the waters were muddied long ago with the competing for cash having become the norm or standard thing to do in all class's.....

and there are so many so called "sponsorship deals" out there now.....do we call a person who pays for his PROduct-at a reduced rate a PRO.....i mean i really want to see how this all plays out....

even though in all reality.....what is there really to play out.....like i said...about 4 pro's went to the last IFAA event.....and how many from the US will even enter into IFAA events for the IFAA snoop dogs to have to determine status of......


----------



## JAVI

Looks like a few more than 4 are signed up to compete in the IFAA PRO tournament this weekend... and I saw a few from the U.S. on the list...:wink:


----------



## OneBowTie

JAVI said:


> Looks like a few more than 4 are signed up to compete in the IFAA PRO tournament this weekend... and I saw a few from the U.S. on the list...:wink:


which tourney might that be:wink:


----------



## JAVI

OneBowTie said:


> which tourney might that be:wink:


http://europroarchery.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/main.htm

You'll notice a couple of names on the list....:wink:


----------



## OneBowTie

JAVI said:


> http://europroarchery.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/main.htm
> 
> You'll notice a couple of names on the list....:wink:


thanks for the link there Javi.....i see that in this second event they do indeed have 3 entrants from the USA.....

i hope that its a 1,2, 3 sweep:wink:

this is purely a pro event that the ifaa is working with another PROmotor in the hopes of getting pro archery off the ground outside the US it appears

i dont think you'll find any joes at this event trying to shoot as joe.....

but i do think that at future ifaa events that they try to run in the US you will find less attendance then they have had in the past....and that attendance level i dont think was very well attended before....now i want to see how the joe/pros react to this past article.....


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> The kid behind the counter is not at a tourney directing traffic to the store as part of the understood compensation. This is the one area that needs to be cleaned up. A manufacturer can very easily redirect money through a distributor or dealer and have a paid staff shooter in there unbeknown to anyone outside.
> 
> If the kid picks up a bow and goes to the tourney and solicits business for the shop, then he is acting as an agent on behalf of the shop at that tourney and is now in the "Staff Pro" zone.


I don't think that's a reasonable definition of a pro and I'd venture to guess, neither does most of the archery community. You're putting way too fine a point on what constitutes a pro.

That same kid, according to a post from aussiearcher earlier in this thread, can pick up that same bow go to Vegas and shoot the championship flight for a potential prize of thousands of dollars and he's not a pro. 

Sponsored shooters can be an important tool for pro shops and manufacturers to promote their business. Sponsored shooters are not, by most reasonable peoples definition a pro. It takes more than a free bow to be a pro.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

OneBowTie said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> this is very interesting indeed....especially seeing how the IFAA had about 4 pro's show up for their last "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" in Africa.....
> 
> like you say.....this is interesting and would love to see how the IFAA would attempt to actually define any persons compensation packages....or worse yet confuse a compensation package that has nothing to do with shooting a bow.....but more along the lines of selling such bows.....are they going to attempt to call such compensation "sponsorship" or how will they deal with that???
> 
> none the less.....i feel that the IFAA PRObably just lost about 10 entrants to its Germany "world field archery championship"
> 
> i do feel that in archery.....the waters were muddied long ago with the competing for cash having become the norm or standard thing to do in all class's.....
> 
> and there are so many so called "sponsorship deals" out there now.....do we call a person who pays for his PROduct-at a reduced rate a PRO.....i mean i really want to see how this all plays out....
> 
> even though in all reality.....what is there really to play out.....like i said...about 4 pro's went to the last IFAA event.....and how many from the US will even enter into IFAA events for the IFAA snoop dogs to have to determine status of......



You do have to applaud the IFAA for trying to develop a meaningful and profitable pro division.

I still feel their tight definition of a pro is little more than attempt to artificially grow the pro ranks and perhaps PROvide a little canon fodder for the real pros. :wink:


----------



## Guest

does anyone actually think that the IFAA will have some goon squad looking for some shop shooter to shoot pro when they have never registered as one in any archery org???????? all this does is is force current pros in all archery orgs to shoot pro there as well not a big deal. The hype that is being placed here is certainly paranoia at best, if they have a sponsorship big deal is it a pro sponsorship or is it a shop bow at half dealer cost and the guy has a national staff shirt(how many of those have we seen) The IFAA has no right to view your shooting contract, heck they don't know even if you have one, and how many actually have a written one. The main thing this will do is force the ASA/IBO 3-D Pro or simialr to shoot Pro in an IFAA event if they registered in one. This quite frankly I see this as a non issue and just some house keeping rules to cover the Pro division definition.


----------



## Marcus

Great post Sean. 
I think it's great, it's a shame FITA does not distinguish between Pros and non-Pro shooters.


----------



## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> I don't think that's a reasonable definition of a pro and I'd venture to guess, neither does most of the archery community. You're putting way too fine a point on what constitutes a pro.
> 
> That same kid, according to a post from aussiearcher earlier in this thread, can pick up that same bow go to Vegas and shoot the championship flight for a potential prize of thousands of dollars and he's not a pro.
> 
> Sponsored shooters can be an important tool for pro shops and manufacturers to promote their business. Sponsored shooters are not, by most reasonable peoples definition a pro. It takes more than a free bow to be a pro.


I'm not putting anything on what constitutes a pro. The whole issue here is about defining an amateur, thats what this whole thing is about.

Anyone at all can shoot for the pot at Vegas thats not a terribly good example particularly as it is not an NFAA event per se but managed by the WAF and uses NFAA officials Wonder who created that mess?

Once again we have been over the free bow issue before and that is NOT an issue. Sponsored shooters if they are being paid to attend a tournament and are being used to "promote a business" should be given a long hard look. You *dont think* they are a pro, _*I dont think*_ they are an amateur in that they have significant advantage over the guy who pays his own way all the time and isn't hawking product at every event.


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## JAVI

Sean McKenty said:


> does anyone actually think that the IFAA will have some goon squad looking for some shop shooter to shoot pro when they have never registered as one in any archery org???????? all this does is is force current pros in all archery orgs to shoot pro there as well not a big deal. The hype that is being placed here is certainly paranoia at best, if they have a sponsorship big deal is it a pro sponsorship or is it a shop bow at half dealer cost and the guy has a national staff shirt(how many of those have we seen) The IFAA has no right to view your shooting contract, heck they don't know even if you have one, and how many actually have a written one. The main thing this will do is force the ASA/IBO 3-D Pro or simialr to shoot Pro in an IFAA event if they registered in one. This quite frankly I see this as a non issue and just some house keeping rules to cover the Pro division definition.


Exactly...


But all they got to do is say no to the free stuff and it isn't an issue, it seems to me that someone is worried they may lose their discount...


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## Guest

Marcus said:


> Great post Sean.
> I think it's great, it's a shame FITA does not distinguish between Pros and non-Pro shooters.



Fita use to have a rules defining what a pro was, at one time if you made any money in archery you were a pro and not qualified to participate in fita Championships, this ment if you worked on the line at say easton and didn't even shoot archery you were a pro. I like what Fita has done myself by just basically ignoring it completly. We have no pro division here but we do have an open class were you shoot for money, you can go in or out of the class at will, makes things easier to keep track of. What the IFAA has done is basically say you shoot pro there you shoot pro here, they have specifically limited their money limit to IFAA sanctioned events there by excluding how other orgs operate only were the word pro comes into play,( NFAA&NAFAC) no pro division in vegas/stan etc and not an IFAA santioned event so nock yourself out, don't know of any non pro archers to win the championship class. Nobody really cares if you get a few arrows for free and niether does the IFAA, action will only take place if a protest is filed and this will only happen if someone knows that you have registered as a pro in some other org, since they will have no insight as to any contracts you may or maynot have it will most likely be based on previous published results.


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## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> Exactly...
> 
> 
> But all they got to do is say no to the free stuff and it isn't an issue, it seems to me that someone is worried they may lose their discount...


There ya go talkin' out of both sides of your mouth again!

It's not a problem but you best not do it.... 

I'm not a bit worried about losing any free stuff. I'm still waiting for it to show up as a matter of fact!

And, I have no plans on going to Florida for the one IFAA shoot held in the US. So that's not an issue.

As for your and Sean's contention that it's no big deal as relates the IFAA, possibly true.

I still take exception to the notion that one's amateur status in archery is something sacred and special and worthy of protection. Once the olympics accepted pros that idea went out then window for me. 

And, that accepting a free bow in exchange for promoting a shop or company negates ones amateur status, as 5b would seem to indicate.


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## Guest

ShakesTheClown said:


> There ya go talkin' out of both sides of your mouth again!
> 
> It's not a problem but you best not do it....
> 
> I'm not a bit worried about losing any free stuff. I'm still waiting for it to show up as a matter of fact!
> 
> And, I have no plans on going to Florida for the one IFAA shoot held in the US. So that's not an issue.
> 
> As for your and Sean's contention that it's no big deal as relates the IFAA, possibly true.
> 
> I still take exception to the notion that one's amateur status in archery is something sacred and special and worthy of protection. Once the olympics accepted pros that idea went out then window for me.
> 
> And, that accepting a free bow in exchange for promoting a shop or company negates ones amateur status, as 5b would seem to indicate.


The contention that 5B would nulify an ameturs status is a stretch at best since the IFAA would have to know of your contract if any and prove that you got what ever for free and inturn was to promote what ever for who ever... sorry but the IFAA isn't interested in meanial things like this, they are more interested in provable facts like results ie. Jeff Hopkins wins both the IBO/ASA world Pro titles and then registers in the amateur F/S class at NAFAC. I have been through this with our National body that very very simialr rules, I shot for PSE for nearly 20years and decided to shot in our FCA nationals (read NAA) a protest was put in that I was to shoot in the Pro division of which I never entered in any organisation, and I was asked to provide the contract, I said what contract, end of discussion. There is no boogyman here if you shot as a Pro then of course you should register as one there, if you haven't shot as a pro then you have nothing to worry about


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## ShakesTheClown

Sean McKenty said:


> The contention that 5B would nulify an ameturs status is a stretch at best since the IFAA would have to know of your contract if any and prove that you got what ever for free and inturn was to promote what ever for who ever... sorry but the IFAA isn't interested in meanial things like this, they are more interested in provable facts like results ie. Jeff Hopkins wins both the IBO/ASA world Pro titles and then registers in the amateur F/S class at NAFAC. I have been through this with our National body that very very simialr rules, I shot for PSE for nearly 20years and decided to shot in our FCA nationals (read NAA) a protest was put in that I was to shoot in the Pro division of which I never entered in any organisation, and I was asked to provide the contract, I said what contract, end of discussion. There is no boogyman here if you shot as a Pro then of course you should register as one there, if you haven't shot as a pro then you have nothing to worry about


I hope that you are correct Sean. The IFAA hasn't weighed in other than aussiearcher's comments earlier. It would be nice if they did. But as I've said, there is little IFAA presence in the US and it doesn't apply to me anyway. What got my attention was the number of people that somehow felt this is needed in the NFAA as well.

I'm actually more interested in the general discussion of what constitues a pro or amateur. I'm shocked how many people think that if you are a staff shooter for a bow company that you should automatically be forced to shoot as a pro.

No one has yet shown me any good reason for this. They talk about protecting the amateur ranks but can't seem to tell me what's so important about doing that. They talk about a level playing field and then say it's ok to give someone a bow as long as they don't "shill" for the manufacturer. 

At this point I'm convinced that it boils down to simple jealousy and little else.

Building a viable, profitable pro division is a good thing. I hope the IFAA tournament is a huge success.


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## ShakesTheClown

JAVI said:


> it seems to me that someone is worried they may lose their discount...


Ya know, I wasn't going to say anything but I thought better of you. I thought you where the one person on this whole forum that could reasonably debate something that could affect the future of archery without trying to make it personal or without taking a cheap shot.

How disappointing...

For the record, the next free bow I get will be the first one and I'm not holding my breath.


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## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Ya know, I wasn't going to say anything but I thought better of you. I thought you where the one person on this whole forum that could reasonably debate something that could affect the future of archery without trying to make it personal or without taking a cheap shot.
> 
> How disappointing...
> 
> For the record, the next free bow I get will be the first one and I'm not holding my breath.


Jeez Shakey we finally have something in common, the same sponsor


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## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> I hope that you are correct Sean. The IFAA hasn't weighed in other than aussiearcher's comments earlier. It would be nice if they did. But as I've said, there is little IFAA presence in the US and it doesn't apply to me anyway. What got my attention was the number of people that somehow felt this is needed in the NFAA as well.
> 
> I'm actually more interested in the general discussion of what constitues a pro or amateur. I'm shocked how many people think that if you are a staff shooter for a bow company that you should automatically be forced to shoot as a pro.
> 
> No one has yet shown me any good reason for this. They talk about protecting the amateur ranks but can't seem to tell me what's so important about doing that. They talk about a level playing field and then say it's ok to give someone a bow as long as they don't "shill" for the manufacturer.
> 
> At this point I'm convinced that it boils down to simple jealousy and little else.
> 
> Building a viable, profitable pro division is a good thing. I hope the IFAA tournament is a huge success.


Yes, the Olympics allows pros to compete now, and they also cowtowed to Bejing to host a game so a member of the IOC could take a shot at the Nobel Peace prize. That should not affect how amateur status is percieved but more how politically motivated the IOC has become.

I doubt it's jealousey, but your opinions are your own and so be it.

I'll state this once, so pay attention. I have no issue with free equiment for amateurs, I have no issue with travel expensed being deferred to get people to shoots. What I do have issue with at this particular moment in the industry / sports history is the sponsorship of the individual amateur as opposed to sponsoring or supporting the sport as a whole. If you are going to give away bows why not charge a minimal amount and make an affordable bow program across the board? Why not take that money being spent on Staff Shooters and psuedo pros and inject it into a tournament series? Start PROmoting the sport rather than the pet shooters among the amateur ranks and who knows maybe participation may just go up a little.


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## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> Jeez Shakey we finally have something in common, the same sponsor


Does that mean we have to wear the same shirts?????


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## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> Yes, the Olympics allows pros to compete now, and they also cowtowed to Bejing to host a game so a member of the IOC could take a shot at the Nobel Peace prize. That should not affect how amateur status is percieved but more how politically motivated the IOC has become.
> 
> I doubt it's jealousey, but your opinions are your own and so be it.
> 
> I'll state this once, so pay attention. I have no issue with free equiment for amateurs, I have no issue with travel expensed being deferred to get people to shoots. What I do have issue with at this particular moment in the industry / sports history is the sponsorship of the individual amateur as opposed to sponsoring or supporting the sport as a whole. If you are going to give away bows why not charge a minimal amount and make an affordable bow program across the board? Why not take that money being spent on Staff Shooters and psuedo pros and inject it into a tournament series? Start PROmoting the sport rather than the pet shooters among the amateur ranks and who knows maybe participation may just go up a little.


I think you'd be shocked at just how much money some of the manufacturers do spend sponsoring various tournaments and touranment organizations. How much trickles down through the organizations to the shooters is anyone's guess. I know of one tournament in particular that gets quite a bit of sponsor money and none goes to the pros. 

Plus, in the big picture, archery is a pretty small industry. There isn't as much money to throw around as some people think.

It may be that the only way for a serious pro class to develop is to consolidate tournament organizations so that you have fewer mouths for the sponsorship money to feed.


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## Guest

Hutnicks said:


> Yes, the Olympics allows pros to compete now, and they also cowtowed to Bejing to host a game so a member of the IOC could take a shot at the Nobel Peace prize. That should not affect how amateur status is percieved but more how politically motivated the IOC has become.
> 
> I doubt it's jealousey, but your opinions are your own and so be it.
> 
> I'll state this once, so pay attention. I have no issue with free equiment for amateurs, I have no issue with travel expensed being deferred to get people to shoots. What I do have issue with at this particular moment in the industry / sports history is the sponsorship of the individual amateur as opposed to sponsoring or supporting the sport as a whole. If you are going to give away bows why not charge a minimal amount and make an affordable bow program across the board? Why not take that money being spent on Staff Shooters and psuedo pros and inject it into a tournament series? Start PROmoting the sport rather than the pet shooters among the amateur ranks and who knows maybe participation may just go up a little.



Sponsorship has more to do with local sales than any tournament series will, there are just way to many archers that first don't care about tournaments but do care about the seasons BH sales which has more to do with a staff shooter that is eloquant, knowledgable and available, a tournament series doesn't relate to this selling point. Although a great sound byte having the current world champ of what ever around it does little for the masses, BHers care little about tournement shooting, but having the local staffer bring in the largest buck/turkey with said bow does help since the locals can actually talk to him/her.


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## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> Does that mean we have to wear the same shirts?????


Hey I'll send ya one of my plain black or white polos:wink:


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## Hutnicks

Sean McKenty said:


> Sponsorship has more to do with local sales than any tournament series will, there are just way to many archers that first don't care about tournaments but do care about the seasons BH sales which has more to do with a staff shooter that is eloquant, knowledgable and available, a tournament series doesn't relate to this selling point. Although a great sound byte having the current world champ of what ever around it does little for the masses, BHers care little about tournement shooting, but having the local staffer bring in the largest buck/turkey with said bow does help since the locals can actually talk to him/her.


Oh Boy Sean now you've done it, you went and brought BowHunting into it. It's no secret that the money in archery in North America comes from BH sales and Target is rather the subsidized poor cousin. Not sure I want to step any further into those waters here (need hair raising smiley here) Theres a reason I'm waiting for the return of a Darton Target bow, I suppose


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## Hutnicks

ShakesTheClown said:


> I think you'd be shocked at just how much money some of the manufacturers do spend sponsoring various tournaments and touranment organizations. How much trickles down through the organizations to the shooters is anyone's guess. I know of one tournament in particular that gets quite a bit of sponsor money and none goes to the pros.
> 
> Plus, in the big picture, archery is a pretty small industry. There isn't as much money to throw around as some people think.
> 
> It may be that the only way for a serious pro class to develop is to consolidate tournament organizations so that you have fewer mouths for the sponsorship money to feed.


 And Waaaaaaaaaay back there somewhere is my opinion on the growth of the sport being stunted until sponsors from outside the sport can be interested.

Ever notice Nextel or ING dont actually manufacture Cars:wink:


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## ShakesTheClown

Sean McKenty said:


> Sponsorship has more to do with local sales than any tournament series will, there are just way to many archers that first don't care about tournaments but do care about the seasons BH sales which has more to do with a staff shooter that is eloquant, knowledgable and available, a tournament series doesn't relate to this selling point. Although a great sound byte having the current world champ of what ever around it does little for the masses, BHers care little about tournement shooting, but having the local staffer bring in the largest buck/turkey with said bow does help since the locals can actually talk to him/her.


Agreed. That's why companies give away bows to sell more bows.


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## ShakesTheClown

Hutnicks said:


> And Waaaaaaaaaay back there somewhere is my opinion on the growth of the sport being stunted until sponsors from outside the sport can be interested.
> 
> Ever notice Nextel or ING dont actually manufacture Cars:wink:


Exactly.


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## JAVI

ShakesTheClown said:


> Ya know, I wasn't going to say anything but I thought better of you. I thought you where the one person on this whole forum that could reasonably debate something that could affect the future of archery without trying to make it personal or without taking a cheap shot.
> 
> How disappointing...
> 
> For the record, the next free bow I get will be the first one and I'm not holding my breath.


I do not care one-way or the other whether you receive a free bow or not. (I do not) 
And no one cares if Jim Bob gets a free bow for being a good person, certainly not the IFAA, despite your concern. However, if Jim Bob wants to go to an IFAA shoot wearing his scare shirt full of patches he may get a little attention from the officials when he picks up his amateur package. I don’t for a moment believe that an official would make Jim Bob register as a professional.


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## WV Has Been

Sean McKenty said:


> Sponsorship has more to do with local sales than any tournament series will, there are just way to many archers that first don't care about tournaments but do care about the seasons BH sales which has more to do with a staff shooter that is eloquant, knowledgable and available, a tournament series doesn't relate to this selling point. Although a great sound byte having the current world champ of what ever around it does little for the masses, BHers care little about tournement shooting, but having the local staffer bring in the largest buck/turkey with said bow does help since the locals can actually talk to him/her.


I disagree.

Mathews was built on Professional National Tournament results being advertised in hunting magazines. A brilliant approach that worked to perfection. 

Was Mathews the best bows made? Maybe....Maybe not. The massive amount of Hunters that purchased Mathews bows because of the ads thought so.


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## Grey Eagle

WV Has Been said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Mathews was built on Professional National Tournament results being advertised in hunting magazines. A brilliant approach that worked to perfection.
> 
> Was Mathews the best bows made? Maybe....Maybe not. The massive amount of Hunters that purchased Mathews bows because of the ads thought so.


And I humbly disagree with you....

Take a look at the 08 Mathew's catalogue (and it is a catalogue, not a brochure) The vast majority of the images and text centres on hunting.

No-one has still offered up any plausible explanation as to why, truly why, the IFAA is doing this. I have some speculation on it, but I'll keep it to myself for now


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## Guest

Grey Eagle said:


> And I humbly disagree with you....
> 
> Take a look at the 08 Mathew's catalogue (and it is a catalogue, not a brochure) The vast majority of the images and text centres on hunting.
> 
> No-one has still offered up any plausible explanation as to why, truly why, the IFAA is doing this. I have some speculation on it, but I'll keep it to myself for now


I have to agree, I could go into 20 different shops and doubt anyone could name anyone in the book either, but they do know who Billy BHer is and shot a big turkey with his mathews bow.

As for why, I beleive it will have to do with getting the constitution recognised by Swiss international courts. They have been moving in this direction for several years now and since they have a seperate Pro division they would have to have guidlines to what is pro and ameture status. Fita got around this by simply not recogising any pro status at all.


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## Hutnicks

Sean McKenty said:


> I have to agree, I could go into 20 different shops and doubt anyone could name anyone in the book either, but they do know who Billy BHer is and shot a big turkey with his mathews bow.
> 
> As for why, I beleive it will have to do with getting the constitution recognised by Swiss international courts. They have been moving in this direction for several years now and since they have a seperate Pro division they would have to have guidlines to what is pro and ameture status. Fita got around this by simply not recogising any pro status at all.


 You just got my vote for the most astute post of the thread:thumbs_up


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## WV Has Been

Grey Eagle said:


> And I humbly disagree with you....
> 
> Take a look at the 08 Mathew's catalogue (and it is a catalogue, not a brochure) The vast majority of the images and text centres on hunting.


If I said water was wet would you humbly disagree???:wink:

I mentioned built not sustained.:tongue:

You remember the we won XXX out of XXX tournament ads.


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## Grey Eagle

WV Has Been said:


> If I said water was wet would you humbly disagree???:wink:
> 
> I mentioned built not sustained.:tongue:
> 
> You remember the we won XXX out of XXX tournament ads.


Yes, yes I would........ given that water is frozen up here most of the year, I would argue that water is wet :wink::tongue:

I do remember the ads you speak of, but I also remember they were only a part of a larger marketing campaign that, once again, centered on hunting.


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## Hinkelmonster

Once Again Fight Nicely Children!!!!


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## DarrinM

So have we decided if the symbiotic relayionship the NFAA has with IFAA will cause any changes here???????????????

And where & why did this come up? Who paid for the attorney to write this all up? What is the end game the industry desires????


What say you Lepera, Minx and others????????:tongue:


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## 4x20

Archery companies need a prostaff to survive plain and simple. I ran a shooting staff for many years and the companies sales always showed an increase when staff shooters won tournaments. A good prostaff gives the product credability which turns into sales.


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## DLJ

It'll be interesting to see if this new ruling has an effect on the number of pro entries for the world bowhunters next June at Yankton

see y'all there (in the amateur ranks :wink


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## aussiearcher

DLJ said:


> *It'll be interesting to see if this new ruling has an effect on the number of pro entries for the world bowhunters next June at Yankton*
> 
> Why should it make any difference.....Pro's a Pro, plain and simple..


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## DLJ

aussiearcher said:


> Why should it make any difference.....Pro's a Pro, plain and simple..


Shouldn't make any difference but...as we've seen from this thread some of the wording of the new professionalism rulings are unclear

I wonder if folks who are staff shooters for string co's, pro shops, bow co's etc will register in the pro class instead of registering in the 'standard' classes. In the USA I know it's pretty much the norm to get 'staff shooter' positions, are they all pros? 

I'm not saying they are either way but some folks may interpret the new amateur/pro definitions in different ways. A joe may think that because his pro shop gives him a bow to shoot every year that he has to register in the pro division another may think that although he gets strings and a stabilizer from manufactuers as a staff shooter he still does a day job and classes himself as an amateur.

Here in the UK it's more the exception than the rule to get staff shooter positions / sponsorships so it's less of an issue. I for one am still not 100% sure of when an archer should register in the pro division, I'm sure it will become clearer in the months to come.

Looking back through the IFAA results the number of pros is pretty slim, in the region of 5 or 6. With the WBHC being held in the USA next year there may be more entries in the pro division anyway because of the larger number of pro shooters in the USA. I'll be watching to see if sponsored shooters who were previously shooting in non-pro classes now switch to the pro division.

I'm not making judgments on anyone and haven't made up my own mind whether the new amateur/pro definitions are good or bad. Just interested to see how this pans out.

I don't currently have any sponsorships/staff shooter positions nor am I pro but as I understand it I'll be ok still shooting in Bowhunter Ltd regardless of any deals I get as there isn't a pro division for my style.

I know this is a forum for NFAA pros but this is the only thread I've found on AT about the professionalism rulings by the IFAA. Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here :zip:


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## aussiearcher

Hey James...I think we met a few years ago...I was staying with Adrian.

Why don't you email Steve Kendricks IFAA Vice President and Brit to boot and ask about your concerns...then you can enlighten us all.


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