# How many shoot instinctive only?



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm one of those that shoot instinctive only and its a whole different game than with all the accoutriments. I'm curious as to how many shoot the way I do. The only thing that I have on my Excel is a short hunting stab which I stuck on there to see if it helped but stabs have never done much for me no matter the length. Also, I have a flipper rest but no plunger.....the main thing is I don't have a sight at all and don't have any intention of getting one right now. Just curious what others are doing and if they shoot the same way? Thanks


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

I shoot instinctive only as well. I know we have had many discussions about a hybrid of instinctive and gap but I really have never shot gap type shooting. It would have driven me crazy to hold 3 feet in front of the target or much over it to hit the bull.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BowmanJay said:


> I shoot instinctive only as well. I know we have had many discussions about a hybrid of instinctive and gap but I really have never shot gap type shooting. It would have driven me crazy to hold 3 feet in front of the target or much over it to hit the bull.


I agree and feel the same way......my brother used the spot method and I don't know how he did it but he was really good at it. I just flung arrows instinctively and was fairly good at it back in the 50s and 60s. We both could tear up a bulls eye target at 20 yds back then shooting Bear recurve bows off the shelf. We both shot 40 and 45lb bows with little effort.....something said about the prowess of youth!


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

Instinctive for me as well.

For target shooting I would like to try gap shooting but I can't get my point of aim anywherer near 20 yards (I am already shooting 33" arrows)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> I'm one of those that shoot instinctive only and its a whole different game than with all the accoutriments. The only thing that I have on my Excel is a short hunting stab which I stuck on there to see if it helped but stabs have never done much for me no matter the length. Also, I have a flipper rest but no plunger.....the main thing is I don't have a sight at all and don't have any intention of getting one right now.


What does shooting instictive mean to you...because based on your post...it's more about the equipment than a specific aiming technique.

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What does shooting instictive mean to you...because based on your post...it's more about the equipment than a specific aiming technique.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I'm curious as to who shoots instinctively only and not with all the gadgetry, especially sights. I would think that when you have sights on your bow, it makes for a different way of obtaining a score that puts some distance between the two....does that make sense?

What I'm trying to say is an instinctive shooter that shoots a 200 on the NFAA target at 20 yds would be as good as a 250 shooter with long stabs and sights, yet both are shooting trad bows.......


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> I'm curious as to who shoots instinctively only and not with all the gadgetry, especially sights. I would think that when you have sights on your bow, it makes for a different way of obtaining a score that puts some distance between the two....does that make sense?


It seems to me you are basically asking who shoots a traditional barebow.

The word Instinctive use to be the way people described shooting barebow years ago...but today it has a more specific meaning that descibes a specific aiming technique.

Aiming Instinctively is one of the many different barebow aiming techniques...and it is'nt determined by the equipment being used unless a sight is being used.

If a sight is being used...than there is no way the archer can aim TOTALLY Instinctively because of how the pin/sight is positioned in the archer's direct line of sight to the target.

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It seems to me you are basically asking who shoots a traditional barebow.
> 
> Instinctive use to be the way people described shooting barebow years ago...but today it has a more specific meaning that descibes a specific aiming technique.
> 
> ...


Yet they post scores without acknowledging the gadgets on the bow.....should there be a line drawn in the sand on how the scores are accomplished? In other words, an instinctive shooter, I'm talking about a bare bow shooter that doesn't use any method of aiming but concentrating on the bullseye, be compared with a Oly type bow shooter?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> What I'm trying to say is an instinctive shooter that shoots a 200 on the NFAA target at 20 yds would be as good as a 250 shooter with long stabs and sights, yet both are shooting trad bows.......


I understand what you're trying to say...but I disagree.

If an archer wants to be as good at something as another archer is...than they have to match their score.

I think a better way to describe what I think you're trying to say is that that a good Instinctive archer will score a 200 on a NFAA 300 round and a good Trad archer using a recurve with sights and a long stabilizer would shoot a 250.

I personally would change those numbers to 220 for a good barebow trad archer and at least a 280 on up for a good Trad archer using a sight and stabilizer.

Ray :shade:


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I focus on a spot and the sight picture. I anchor for a few seconds and when my mind tells me everything is right, the arrow is gone. I sometimes shoot using Rick Welch's method and sometimes I use Joel Turner's method. Im still trying to decide which works better for me. I shoot pretty consistently both ways but all is at close range.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You can't make rules that you are not capable of enforcing. The only person that knows what is going on behind that bow is the one shooting it. You can't tell if I'm looking at the tip of the arrow, the intended X or the guy's bow beside me. It's impossible to enforce so we make classes based on equipment and let the archer aim (less sights) how they want to. 
You said, "What I'm trying to say is an instinctive shooter that shoots a 200 on the NFAA target at 20 yds would be as good as a 250 shooter with long stabs and sights, yet both are shooting trad bows....... "
There is no way what so ever to say something like this. If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his rump when he jumped either. I'm not trying to be rude to you in any way but why do we have this need to compare like this. Does it hurt someone's feelings that the guy beside them shoots better because he focuses differently on the target? The goal for all of us should be to continually improve our shooting. If you choose to shoot with no sights and no stabilizer then don't compare yourself to those guys but the beauty of the NFAA TRAD class is that we are all shooting against each other. You can't use a sight or a stabilizer. You must use one anchor, but you can stare at the dot, measure the distance with your eye or close both of them and shoot. It's great fun and it's fair.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I understand what you're trying to say...but I disagree.
> 
> If an archer wants to be as good at something as another archer is...than they have to match their score.
> 
> ...


I'm still a little confused on this but thats nothing new for me......we are close on the figures tho, only 10 points apart with you 220 and 280 and my 200 and 250......I think what I'm trying to say is.....if I went to a tournament and I have a flipper rest and nothing else, why would I have to compete with guys all rigged out with sights and stabs 3ft long etc......?

Would it then behoove me to get all the trimmings to fairly compete with those folks?


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## MI_Darton (Aug 8, 2005)

My long bow and recurve are shot off the shelf with nothing on the bow except muskrat string silencers... I just look at the spot, draw to anchor, and let it go. Seems to work out well for me. Maybe that's instinctive, but not totally sure.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Ranger B said:


> You can't make rules that you are not capable of enforcing. The only person that knows what is going on behind that bow is the one shooting it. You can't tell if I'm looking at the tip of the arrow, the intended X or the guy's bow beside me. It's impossible to enforce so we make classes based on equipment and let the archer aim (less sights) how they want to.
> You said, "What I'm trying to say is an instinctive shooter that shoots a 200 on the NFAA target at 20 yds would be as good as a 250 shooter with long stabs and sights, yet both are shooting trad bows....... "
> There is no way what so ever to say something like this. If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his rump when he jumped either. I'm not trying to be rude to you in any way but why do we have this need to compare like this. Does it hurt someone's feelings that the guy beside them shoots better because he focuses differently on the target? The goal for all of us should be to continually improve our shooting. If you choose to shoot with no sights and no stabilizer then don't compare yourself to those guys but the beauty of the NFAA TRAD class is that we are all shooting against each other. You can't use a sight or a stabilizer. You must use one anchor, but you can stare at the dot, measure the distance with your eye or close both of them and shoot. It's great fun and it's fair.


Pardon my ignorance on this but I was not aware of their being different classes according to equipment......as for as how we instinctively shoot, I wasn't going there at all and I'm sorry if I misled you on that......for me instinctive is instinctive no matter how you do it as far as I'm concerned but when you add a sight and long stabs that kinda threw me.....I didn't know there were different classes according to the equipment.....thanks and I'd like to learn more on that.......


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MI_Darton said:


> My long bow and recurve are shot off the shelf with nothing on the bow except muskrat string silencers... I just look at the spot, draw to anchor, and let it go. Seems to work out well for me. Maybe that's instinctive, but not totally sure.


To me, thats instinctive shooting, but I'm not sure it halts at that......when does instinctive end and a different class of shooters begin?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> I think what I'm trying to say is.....if I went to a tournament and I have a flipper rest and nothing else, why would I have to compete with guys all rigged out with sights and stabs 3ft long etc......?


You shouldn't have to. Most organizations have seperate classes for guys shooting recurves rigged with sights and long stabilizers.



rembrandt said:


> Would it then behoove me to get all the trimmings to fairly compete with those folks?


If an archer's goal is to compete at the highest level they can within a specific class it would be smart to use anything to their advantage they can as long as it was within the guidlines of that specific class.

There are no added points for archers who make it tougher on themselves in competition.

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You shouldn't have to. Most organizations have seperate classes for guys shooting recurves rigged with sights and long stabilizers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that.....you mean to tell me that I WON'T get a mulligan or a handicap?????? That sucks!

Can you tell me and others that are new like me what classes are out there for trad shooters according to equipment?


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

I shoot instinctive also.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> To me, thats instinctive shooting, but I'm not sure it halts at that......when does instinctive end and a different class of shooters begin?


There is usually a seperation in class when an archer is using String Walking or Face Walking as their barebow aiming technique...because it is something that is easily seen and definitely has advantages under specific circumstances.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> Thanks for that.....you mean to tell me that I WON'T get a mulligan or a handicap?????? That sucks!


LOL....nope...but in most if not all tournaments...you would be shooting in a seperate class.



rembrandt said:


> Can you tell what classes are out there for trad shooters according to equipment?


It depends on the organization.

Ray :shade:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

instinctive persay is not using any mechanical device...example arrow tip ... riser parts ...arrow shaft etc to view down or point of reference on target.. this is a touchy subject but hopefully my SIMPLE LAYMAN'S TERMS and description define instinctive ..I shoot instinctive only because I am left eye dominate and shoot right handed due to shoulder injury...I look at target and vision in my small mind the arrow flight persay.. I am going to try to teach my right eye to take over this summer ..again practice and maybe a patch for a while will do it ...and going to 3 fingers under ..as I have observed people who shoot this way usually have higher scores..I shot with Jim powell at the worlds and Garry and the other big names and wow its a science and a art form to watch.. poetry in motion...Just my opinion...


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL....nope...but in most if not all tournaments...you would be shooting in a seperate class.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> instinctive persay is not using any mechanical device...example arrow tip ... riser parts ...arrow shaft etc to view down or point of reference on target.. this is a touchy subject but hopefully my SIMPLE LAYMAN'S TERMS and description define instinctive ..I shoot instinctive only because I am left eye dominate and shoot right handed due to shoulder injury...I look at target and vision in my small mind the arrow flight persay.. I am going to try to teach my right eye to take over this summer ..again practice and maybe a patch for a while will do it ...and going to 3 fingers under ..as I have observed people who shoot this way usually have higher scores..I shot with Jim powell at the worlds and Garry and the other big names and wow its a science and a art form to watch.. poetry in motion...Just my opinion...


Here is where I get confused.......I have a flipper rest.....will I have to compete with guys with all the trimmings including sights etc?


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

What I'm hoping is when I go to the club shoot here and I have only a flipper rest, I will be in a different class with those that have sights.......


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

You would shoot in ru recurve unaided and you can have a flipper rest and a stabilizer and now a clicker according to ibo no sights.. if memory serves me right string walking and face walking allowed....trad is off the shelf and no string walking or face walking majority I saw at worlds did use point of aim which is I guess legal in trad class and these guys can shoot for sure...If you do have a rest do the right thing and enter ru class.. or just shoot off shelf .. in trad class


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

yes you will be in a differant class than the sight shooters


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

2413gary said:


> yes you will be in a differant class than the sight shooters


Thats good to know and thats what I've been trying to get out of folks. If I heard right, the guys with sights, stabs etc. have to compete at and with the compound shooters....that don't sound fair to me.....


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

a good recurve shooter with sights can almost shoot arrow for arrow with compound guys ..I`ll say almost as the recurve shooter has to hold his max weight and compound only as much as 15-25 0/0 of bows weight.. usually they have an olympic classification for these guys though ....


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

At all IBO shoots except Traditional Worlds here are the classes:
Longbow - shot off the shelf. 1/8" out of center for the shelf. Wood arrow.
Trad - Any longbow or recurve shot off the shelf. Any arrow with screw in points.
Recurve Unaided - Recurve or longbow, elevated rest, facewalk or stringwalk, stabilizer, clicker

At Trad Worlds we further break it down with a primitive class, modern longbow, and hunter heavyweight.

ASA puts everyone together in a TRAD class. You can shoot an elevated rest, plunger, etc. but no stringwalking, facewalking and no clicker with ASA.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Ranger B said:


> At all IBO shoots except Traditional Worlds here are the classes:
> Longbow - shot off the shelf. 1/8" out of center for the shelf. Wood arrow.
> Trad - Any longbow or recurve shot off the shelf. Any arrow with screw in points.
> Recurve Unaided - Recurve or longbow, elevated rest, facewalk or stringwalk, stabilizer, clicker
> ...


thanks RangerB, thats pretty much what I've been looking for but I would imagine that some clubs vary on this......I would fall in the recurve unaided class with a flipper rest so it would be to my advantage to have a stab and a clicker.....now, tell me how a clicker works and what advantage or purpose is it for?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ranger B is right that there is no way to make a seperate class for instinctive only.

Regarding the definition of instinctive - it is really simple - an instinctive archer aims at a subconscious level - meaning that he pays no conscious attention to the arrow, the bow, the bow hand or arm, etc... - only the spot that he wants to hit - the aiming and even the release are all actions that are mediated below the conscious level - it is "automatic" and requires no thought to distances or aiming references.

This is how I aim and I feel that I am very qualified to speak on this issue - since I am in the top five shooters in the world within my class - regardless of how they aim.

There are many who argue over the definition of the word: "instinctive" - and even some who do not believe that we have a subconscious mind, etc...

The medical definition of the term "instinct" is defined as follows:

From the Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary: 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instinct?show=0&t=1333135186

1: a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity <had an instinct for the right word> 


2 

a: a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason 

b: *behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level *



NOTE THE 2nd Definition (b.)

The guys who argue about this do not shoot instinctive and do not understand or comprehend the first thing about it - and are unwilling to try to understand - so it is usually a total waste of time to debate them on it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> I'm still a little confused on this but thats nothing new for me......we are close on the figures tho, only 10 points apart with you 220 and 280 and my 200 and 250......I think what I'm trying to say is.....if I went to a tournament and I have a flipper rest and nothing else, why would I have to compete with guys all rigged out with sights and stabs 3ft long etc......?
> 
> Would it then behoove me to get all the trimmings to fairly compete with those folks?


You wouldn't. They would compete in Freestyle Recurve where a good score is 295-300, you would compete in Trad (if you loose the stab, its not allowed) where a good score is 270-280.

-Grant


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ranger B is right that there is no way to make a seperate class for instinctive only.
> 
> Regarding the definition of instinctive - it is really simple - an instinctive archer aims at a subconscious level - meaning that he pays no conscious attention to the arrow, the bow, the bow hand or arm, etc... - only the spot that he wants to hit - the aiming and even the release are all actions that are mediated below the conscious level - it is "automatic" and requires no thought to distances or aiming references.
> 
> ...


Sharp, I had no intention of any variation within instinctive shooting... I don't know where that came from. I was only interested in what equipment you could have that put you in a certain class.....Its my lack of wording that I must have misled RangerB.........


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

How and what does a clicker work and for what purpose? I know it clicks at full draw but what does that tell you other than you are at the anchor spot?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> How many shoot instinctive only?


How many do; or believe they do? :flame:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

A clicker is like a draw check it makes a sound or vibration to let you know you have drawn the bow the same distance every time..hence if you short draw bow weight is down so arrow will shoot lower at a greater distance..this will make you come to the same anchor point every time in theory and they do work..clicker can attach to limb and string and when string hits certain distance or drawn back it makes a sound then you know when to release


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> A clicker is like a draw check it makes a sound or vibration to let you know you have drawn the bow the same distance every time..hence if you short draw bow weight is down so arrow will shoot lower at a greater distance..this will make you come to the same anchor point every time in theory and they do work..clicker can attach to limb and string and when string hits certain distance or drawn back it makes a sound then you know when to release


I'm thinking that would be a distraction to me......I'd be thinking clicker instead of target which I'm focusing on!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

I have one of the best coachs around she coached chris perkins the world record holder... here in canada and a clicker she says takes thousands and thousands of shots to get used too to make it a subconsciousness thing to do naturally..


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> I have one of the best coachs around she coached chris perkins the world record holder... here in canada and a clicker she says takes thousands and thousands of shots to get used too to make it a subconsciousness thing to do naturally..


Thats what I was thinking right off the bat......its got to be ingrained into ones draw and not even think about it but just react to it......


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

It does take time but it is certainly an advantage once you master it. Several thousand shots really isn't that much if you shoot competitively and work at it daily. I average 185-200 shots a day 7 days a week. Others shoot much more, some less.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

rembrandt said:


> I'm still a little confused on this but thats nothing new for me......we are close on the figures tho, only 10 points apart with you 220 and 280 and my 200 and 250......I think what I'm trying to say is.....if I went to a tournament and I have a flipper rest and nothing else, why would I have to compete with guys all rigged out with sights and stabs 3ft long etc......?
> 
> Would it then behoove me to get all the trimmings to fairly compete with those folks?


Rembrandt
Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but all you, or anyone else for that matter, need do is go to the NFAA, IBO, ASA, NAA, etc. websites and there you will find the rules and regulations for all the different shooting styles and classes. You will also find the target configurations, distances, etc., for all the different games played under the auspices of each organization.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm back to shooting instinctive. String walking was very accurate especially at the longer ranges but too much stuffing around, I may as well use a compound and sights. I might not be as accurate now but its a lot more enjoyable.

Btw rem, you might want to think about changing that flipper rest to a plunger & magnetic flipper. I tried a NAP Centerest on my Horizon and I wasn't anywhere near as good as my Spigarelli Z/T & Cartel Click Pressure button (Beiter copy). Showed up my poor form.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Question for the purist instinctive shooter: If your POI is left or right or high or low in relation to your POA and you know the off-shot is not tune or form related, how do you correct and bring the arrow back on target?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

is this a trick question ??? you ask for point of aim which means using arrow or bow as a reference so I guess this is not a question for a purist instinctive shooter right....?????? or am I reading the question wrong


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

I started out shooting instinctive, though I didn't know I was shooting instinctive at the time. My Dad naturally adapted the point-aim method, and was a pretty good shot too...he doesn't shoot much anymore.
Back in the 70's a lot of archers I ran into shot with sights, I tried it for a little while but stuck with instinctive. Back then they would drill holes so the sights could be mounted, some of the target bows came with sliding sights in side of the riser....window.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Destroyer said:


> I'm back to shooting instinctive. String walking was very accurate especially at the longer ranges but too much stuffing around, I may as well use a compound and sights. I might not be as accurate now but its a lot more enjoyable.
> 
> Btw rem, you might want to think about changing that flipper rest to a plunger & magnetic flipper. I tried a NAP Centerest on my Horizon and I wasn't anywhere near as good as my Spigarelli Z/T & Cartel Click Pressure button (Beiter copy). Showed up my poor form.


Eventually, I probably will go to a plunger type rest.....


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> Eventually, I probably will go to a plunger type rest.....



I would go with what works best for ya, you will have more tunability with a plunger type rest.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Curve1 said:


> I would go with what works best for ya, you will have more tunability with a plunger type rest.


How does the plunger work? Also, how do you know how to adjust the plunger when arrows vary at the target? Curious how it works?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> how do you correct and bring the arrow back on target?


If it starts out hitting right (or whatever) I just keep shooting until I straighten it up again, automatically.



Curve1 said:


> I would go with what works best for ya


True, I find a plunger helps with my poor release. It could be I'm just use to that one setup as well.



rembrandt said:


> Eventually, I probably will go to a plunger type rest.....


Sounds like you are happy with your current setup.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> is this a trick question ??? you ask for point of aim


Ok! Let's use "pick a spot" that you aim to hit... subconsciously. Do all above-average instinctive shooters always hit the "spot" they are not aiming at, and if they don't, the cause is always form or maltune related?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> the cause is always form or maltune related?


Not tuning because we can test that easily so its always form related. Do everything right (same) and you hit the spot.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Do everything right (same) and you hit the spot.


Always.... if you do everything right and the same?



> _If it starts out hitting right (or whatever) I just keep shooting until I straighten it up again,_


So if your arrows are grouping, for example, a bit low-left; you just keep shooting until your arrows _automatically_ come back on the spot?


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

This subject seems to always move to a debate of this is the way to do it...ect. My way is only one way, and it may not be the best way for everyone. Sometimes we can make a mountain out of a mole hill [to use that old corny phrase].
If you pick up a rock and throw it at an object 20 yards away... you hit it! Simple as that. That's what instinctive shooting is.
True, you need to form the basic essentials [form] but you just DO IT. Not everybody shoots instinctively, some find other methods to work for them better. When you pick up that rock and throw it, you dont think about 10 different things before you throw it..you just throw it. It's really that simple.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _If you pick up a rock and throw it at an object 20 yards away.... you hit it._


Curve: Do you know or judge the size and height of the of the object in relation to distance and angle, and estimate or judge the distance to the object before you throw the rock; or just quickly throw the rock at the object and let the subconscious take care of the unknowns?


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> Curve: Do you know or judge the size and height of the of the object in relation to distance and angle, and estimate or judge the distance to the object before you throw the rock; or just quickly throw the rock at the object and let the subconscious take care of the unknowns?


I'm laughin really hard right now,, cant help it.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I'm laughin really hard right now,, cant help it.


 ...


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Seriously, I dont mean to be argumentive, but back when me and my Dad and brother's got into archery the objective that every archer [I knew or met] was to hit the mark. I really dont think a lot of folks know the history of modern archery...and I dont mean that in an arrogant way.
I sure dont claim to know it all, but I never witnessed the categorizing among archers that I have in the last 15 years.
My son shoots a Hoyt Dorado with a flipper rest. He shoots a more methodical style but that's what works for him. I've never tried to change his style when he was younger...just tried to show him the basics and let him go with what works for him.
One of my brother's has always used more of a target style of shooting and he does good with it.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> Always.... if you do everything right and the same?


Pretty much. Just remember that I'm not saying every single time, I can't shoot the exact same and do everything correct every time lol!



WindWalker said:


> So if your arrows are grouping, for example, a bit low-left; you just keep shooting until your arrows _automatically_ come back on the spot?


Yes. For example, when I went to the Hoyt Horizon from the Samick Vision riser I was hitting way right (grip alignment). All I had to do is keep shooting until I corrected it. If I start hitting low now that I'm use to it then I'm not doing it right (poor form) or I'm not concentrating hard enough on what I want to hit. 

I know it sounds a bit 'magical' but it really does work the way.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

New question: If knowing or judging the distance to target/spot is of no concern for a skilled instinctive shooter; why then do some admit they are not as good beyond 20 yards or beyond other distances they they shoot well at? If the bow is capable of shooting to, say, 80 yards, and distance is not a concern, why then can't all skillful instinctive shooters shoot well at any distance the arrow is capable of reaching?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Destroyer: But if you are shooting competition how many points are you willing to sacrifice to allow your arrows to come back on target...automatically?


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

The more you throw the rock at longer distances the better you get, but your accuracy at longer distances shooting instinctive [IMO] is harder to achieve. Archers that use some form of aiming will tend to be more accurate at longer distances compared to most instinctive archers.
This is only my opinion and should not be used in any archery handbook.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I throw rocks about as good as I shoot arrows with the recurve so I must be shooting instinctual.:wink: I mostly trust the mental equipment in there to get the arrow where it goes I think it just needs a little more time to get the program fine tuned. I am fortunate that my goal is just to some day get together fair 3D scores and hunt a deer.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Curve I`m glad you answered this.. I thought the baseball throwing answer did it but ????? I guess every pitcher for the national teams must analyze each player as he walks to the mound...height weight and circumference of their belly... before they throw a pitch..lol lol lol ... wow are we off topic now...


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I don't know if its intinctive or not.... but I don't use sights... :grin:


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

You're only an instinctive shooter if you shoot off the hand with cane arras and a sinew string on a self bow...in a loin cloth.:wink:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> New question: If knowing or judging the distance to target/spot is of no concern for a skilled instinctive shooter


Its a concern but not to the same degree since we use 'Instinctive Correction'. We just don't need to know or guess the exact distance but that doesn't mean it always works out.



WindWalker said:


> why then do some admit they are not as good beyond 20 yards or beyond other distances they they shoot well at?


For some archers the difference between hitting and missing can not be 'Instinctively' corrected, the amount is too small of a difference at longer ranges. Some archers simply don't have the form to shoot further anyway, that's all archers really.



WindWalker said:


> Destroyer: But if you are shooting competition how many points are you willing to sacrifice to allow your arrows to come back on target...automatically?


None. Once I'm use to a bow and have corrected to hit center its all about repeatability/form and I expect to hit center. If I'm off, the next shot will be on but if not I just keep shooting.



Curve1 said:


> Archers that use some form of aiming will tend to be more accurate at longer distances compared to most instinctive archers.


Yep, some instinctive archers turn to gap shooting at longer distances.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Curve1 said:


> You're only an instinctive shooter if you shoot off the hand with cane arras and a sinew string on a self bow...in a loin cloth.:wink:


okay I was right with ya on the rock throwing but after this post well your on your own now.:wink:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I shoot instinctively when I forget that I'm now trying to use the gap method for longer distances. For flying targets, it seems to work the best for me anyway. For longer ranges, my instinctive is hit and.... we won't talk about that. It has worked in the past, so long as I didn't think about it too much, and I had a bit of luck. But if I was shooting longer distances instinctively, and then second guessed myself, almost guaranteed failure. I try to only remember the good shots.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The whole key to shooting instinctively is to not think about it - any instinctive shooter will tell you that if they over think a shot or think at all about the distance - they will almost certainly blow the shot - I know I will. Instinctive is all about surrendering the shot (or at least the aim) to the subconscious - and this is a difficult thing to do at times.

Many instinctive shooters have trouble with indoor 3D and/or outdoor line shoots - where you see the distance relationships between the targets - verses a typical outdoor 3D shoot where you only see one target at a time. The reason for this is that you know that the target you just shot was either further or closer than the last - you can actually see it - and this many times causes the instinctive shooter to give conscious thought to the distance - which will cause the shot to be bad. For most of us it takes a great deal of mental discipline to put all the other targets out of mind and just focus on the one you are shooting - I know it was hard for me at first. For a conscious aimer - an indoor or line shoot is actually advantageous - as they can more easily accurately determine the distance of the targets.

It is a mind game - big time - and instinctive is all about thinking of nothing but the spot you want to hit and surrendering or trusting everything else to the subconscious - and when you do this - it is amazing how accurately we can shoot a bow without even thinking about it.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I have 7 hunting bows that have draw-weights that range from 34# to 54#...one bow is a 66" longbow 26#@26"; each one is setup differently and shooting arrows that may/do differ in static and dynamic spine. During the deer season I often use two of the bows, and sometimes in the course of the hunting day I may switch out from one bow to another. 

Now if I am understanding the "instinctive" thing correctly, I need not be concerned about the difference in arrow weight, speed, trajectory, or any setup aspect that differs from bow to bow. All I have to do is just not over-think the shot or not think about the shot at all, don't concern myself with target distance...don't even think about it, don't concern myself with target height or position, don't think about the small fire zone and shot timing; just pick a spot, focus on the spot, and surrender all shot concerns over to the subconscious mind and all things will be taken care of for me regardless which setup I may be shooting and the shooting condition I am facing.

That's some cool stuff!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Curve1 said:


> You're only an instinctive shooter if you shoot off the hand with cane arras and a sinew string on a self bow...in a loin cloth.:wink:


 hows about... nahhh probably too much information... :grin:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

now your getting it windwalker ..like you said from .. surrender all shot concerns in your last post lol lol lol .. buddy this instinctive thread has been haggled to death in previous threads spearheaded by you.. and no none of us is going to make a statement that you can quote us on ... I guess learn to throw a ball and then learn to shot an arrow... lol lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Guys - as I said - the ones who don't shoot instinctive and don't have a clue or understanding of what it is are the ones who bash it.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Boring...........why do we bother with definitions, does it make us better archers ???


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I’m not sure whether or not one would call it “instinctive” or not, but several weeks ago, I witnessed something peculiar.

I attended an indoor sectional tournament and my companion was a seventy year old gentleman who suffered a stroke about nine months ago. This left him blind in one eye, and coincidentally he has a pretty bad cataract in the other eye, that will require surgery. He wanted to attend but is unable to see well enough to drive so I took him. He is a very experienced barebow shooter with many tournaments under his belt, and coincidentally an accomplished hunter, having taken a number of North American big game species.

His scores for the two rounds were 270 and 276. I asked him afterwards if he was able to see the target, and he said that all he could make out was a blue “smudge”. Of course, two things he knew; he knew that the distance to the target is 20 yards more or less, and he knew the size and configuration of the target. He also knew that mid way through each round, he would have to change targets and shoot “top” or “bottom.” The only help he needed was that before each end he needed me to confirm which target he was pointed at, so that he knew which “smudge” was the “smudge” in his lane, and not the lane to his right or left. Most proponents of the instinctive method say that concentration and focusing on the spot you want to hit is required, but since he really couldn’t “see” the target, I suppose one wouldn’t be able to call what he did “instinctive.” 

So how do you account for this? Sure, there was some luck involved, but luck can’t account for all his shots. I have to say, that after witnessing this first hand, one could make a case for the fact that he was shooting on some instinctive level. Or maybe perhaps since he had done it so many times one could just say that he just “knew” , from some kind of muscle-memory where and how to point the arrow, in order to hit the center of the target, and that would qualify as a “learned behavior” as opposed to “instinctive” behavior. I wasn’t the only one surprised by his performance, a number of the other attendees stopped and watched him shoot and were pretty amazed he had done so well, taking into account his physical limitations. What is really peculiar is that he is right handed, and when he draws his bow, he anchors directly under his right eye…his blind one!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> Boring...........why do we bother with definitions, does it make us better archers ???


I agree with LongStick64 here..to the extent that how another archer shoots/aims or what label he chooses to place upon it is not worthy of aggressive debate..however..that said?..open discussion to gain a better understanding of what's going on with an archers personal ways and means of aiming and others sharing their thoughts and experience is a very interesting topic..to me anyways..as i'm always open to hearing how others do it..and sharing what seems to work and what doesn't seem to work for me..and i like hearing those same things shared by others..and that said?..here's how i've been doing it lately...

I'm under the belief that i "Use It All" to varying degrees pending the shot presented...as even with 3-under?..my gap is so huge at closer distances i truely believe i lean mostly towards "instinctive" cause i just can't wrap my head around the huge 2-3 foot gaps at 15yds and under..but i do still gap..when i first raise my bowarm to begin my draw..then as i start the draw?..i believe i go into what i understand to be spilt-vision as i'm constantly re-gapping throughout the draw to the tune of what i'll term "The Big Picture"...which is basically a sight picture that include the disposition of my sight window, the arrow and the relationship of it all unto the target..and through gaggillions of pratice arrows shot?..my mind seems to know what that "Big Picture" is supposed to look like at any given distance..and that gapping/split-vision as i draw sequence also includes alignment of my arrow (feathers too point) to both my eye and the target and as i draw my bow is slightly canted so that the cock-feather and the hen-feather create a V-Notch (much like a rear sight on a firearm) while the point is centered in that rear V-Notch acting much like the front sight of a firearm..which only assures that i'm drawing the arrow straight back in relation to my eye and the target as the gap seems to be ever-changing throught the draw as my minds processor is constantly monitoring, adjusting and compensating to accomodate "The Big Picture" split-vision so the sight picture of everything looks right to my minds eye..but once i hit anchor?..(and i ain't there long cause if i am?..things seem to go awry)..for those last few milliseconds i'm at anchor?..gaping goes away..split-vision goes away..the arrow goes away..as does "The Big Picture"..and the only thing that exists?..is that spot..and that's my que for release..and good, bad or indifferent?..she's gone..and there ain't no "stopping it" when that moment occurs.

I've tried the gapping and holding the arrow point dead on a gap spot at anchor for several seconds with my 44# Longbow..and no doubt..it works...to a degree..but it seems a struggle for me..as the associated stresses of "hold anchor/gap shooting" at times comes scary close to inducing target panice for me..and i don't like that..reminds me to much of pin-shooting compounds..where with my 54# recurve?..i seem to be more consistant with my accuracy when it's all done in one very relaxed fluid motion and if i stop that fluid motion for more than a few milliseconds at anchor?..i'm in trouble..cause "thought" comes rushing into my head and it gives me time to think..so if i'm more relaxed and more consistant with my accuracy doing what some might term as "Snap-Shooting" my 54# recurve as opposed to "hold anchor/gap shooting" my 44# longbow?..that tells me something about myself..and my mind..and also realize..all of our minds aren't wired the same..what works for one archer?..might absolutely blow chunks for the next.

And all of the above?..is just how i shoot/aim for 20yds and under..as i get out beyond 20yds?..i do become slightly more reliant/confident with gap/split..but even those shots..at the very end final moments?..are finished off instinctively..as my good friend sharpbroadhead would say?.."Surrendering Myself To The Shot"..which i better accept and interpret as.."Surrending Conscious Thought"...or?.."Empty Mind" (if you prefer)..and even if it doesn't turn out to be that great of a shot?..it's an awesome experience when it happens..and when it happened the first time for me?...and i put it into practice for awhile?..going back to just pure gap or even just split-vision or "just a combo of them both"?...was almost an impossibility.."for me"...but i still use it all..every shot..to varying degrees pending distance.

Yep..that's how i do it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LongStick64 said:


> Boring...........why do we bother with definitions, does it make us better archers ???


Knowing the proper definitions won't necessarily make us better archers...BUT...the purpose of discussing the proper definitions is PRIMARILY if not ONLY...for educational purposes for coaching.

Unfortunately...there are those that use the term Instinctive as a badge of honor to some how elevate themselves or use it to explain their poor shooting.

There are also those that deny it's existence based on insecurities, fear or ignorance...because they don't understand or are jealous of how someone can accurately throw, shoot or do something based on having superior hand and eye coordination.

Ray :shade:


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

To elaborate more, I agree with Jink that discussion is positive but it would a better thread if we discussed how those that shoot instinctive do it, rather than why we do and how that makes us super archers. The amount of my way is better than your way discussion is pointless, it doesn't help anyone especially the newbies who are getting the worst of it. I can't seem to understand why some cannot accept the fact that there are many accomplished archers that shoot with a different methods with equal results and more than that how many successful archers change their shooting methods from time to time and back again. How many of us that have been shooting for a while are still shooting the same bow, arrows, same technique ? I like to think of myself as "still in deveopment" I'm always looking for a way to improve but within reason.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Black Wolf

Definition can only carry so far, especially in the case of "Instinctive" where it seems everyone has their own definition for it. It's not an exact science and should not be treated as such. My point is if archers are getting so hung up on the definition of a "style" how can they examine and focus on their shot. I think the definition of "Instinctive" is the holy grail of our sport, everyone keeps looking for it but they can't see it in front of their face.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

As far as coaching, I thought Proper form was Primary to the education of the sport not a definition of a term right ? Yes I know what exactly proper form means is another holy grail but for the purpose of teaching I've never heard anyone teach a new archer aiming as a the primary principle. The Korean archers are better than us collectively and their methods are far more advanced, Form rules their training, For a whole year they train without a bow, just form and the mental approach. And yes you can practice form without the bow.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> I like to think of myself as "still in deveopment" I'm always looking for a way to improve...


That statement there pretty much sums it up for me as well...as for me?..it's always a process of continual improvement..cause if i ever get to thinking "I'm There!"....it's over....and the thrill, excitement and fun...will be gone...along with...

my highly refined character! :laugh:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

A stage of development is what its all about. There is plenty of room for enjoyment from your lowest score till you repeatably reach your capabilities. Then I don't know if its enjoyment or disgust but once your good at something, frustration at not being better becomes more of a reality.....If you shot 300 every time out you would be ticked off at not having all Xs.......If your a competitive individual thats just the way it is.....I was that way with golf. The lower my scores the more tanamount it became to stay there and the more frustration I felt with an errant shot......You just have to learn that its part of the game and take it in stride and go on. Even the Pros make bad shots....


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## Leon Hinton (Jul 4, 2010)

I shoot instinctive until the shot is around 40 yards then I try to use point of aim. Killed a doe this year at 42 steps just shot her didn't try to aim or anything and was really surprised how far it was. If I had thought about it would probably have missed.
I shot the IBO Trad world last year and it was a great tournament and experience. I was in the modern longbow class came in 6th had a great last round but mediocure first 2 rounds. 
I have been shooting longbow for the last 5 years exclusively and find if I think about the aiming rather than what I want to hit I don't do as well.LCH


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

in order to understand how those, like myself who do shoot instinctive - you have to first understand how it is defined.

I shoot instinctive - I am among the top five shooters in the world in my class - if you have questions regarding how I do it - ask. I have, however, explained to large extent how I do it - via the definition.

I will try to explain it as clearly as I can.

As an instinctive shooter - I aim at a subconscious level. I do not aim using any references, gaps, point on or off, nothing - I look at the spot I want to hit and keep looking at it until the arrow impacts the target. My subconscious mind makes all the adjustments needed to get the arrow there.

Some examples of this are walking up and down steps - do you think about each step - do you reference where to put your foot at each step - or do you just walk up the steps? Driving a car - do you consciously think about how to steer your car to keep it in your lane - or is it just automatic - done at a subconscious level? If a deer jumps in front of your car - do you consciously think - deer - move right leg over to brake, apply pressure to brake, etc... - or do you just do it without any conscious thought?

When you throw a ball - do you have any aiming references? Is there any "gap", or "point on" when you are holding a basketball over your head to throw a basket? Is there any reference point to aim with when you throw a baseball or wad of paper into the trash? Yet you do it - and pretty accurately ta boot. Your subconscious brain tells your body how hard or soft to throw the ball - at what point to let go of the ball, etc...

And actually - throwing a ball is more difficult to do accurately than to shoot a bow instinctively - because when we shoot a bow there is one less variable. When we throw a ball our brains have to account for velocity (speed), windage (left/right) and elevation (up/down). When we shoot our bows - if we have consistent form - we have only two variables - windage and elevation - velocity is a constant - and this is why we can shoot a bow more accurately than throw a ball.

Does instinctive shoot have limitations? - of course it does. 

1. Distance - most are limitted to a bit further than you can throw something - ie: - 50 yards or less - our brains are not hard wired to judge distance much further than that at subconscious level

2. You are limitted to one set up - ie: - If you want to shoot well insintctively - you need to shoot one bow and arrow combination so that it can become an extention of your self. If you are shooting bows that shoot different speeds (different trajectory) every other time you shoot - your subconscious mind will have conflicting feedback and it will either take much longer to get accurate - or it will be impossible.

3. You need to surrender the shot to the subconscious - and for some people this is a very difficult thing to do. Usually management types have a very difficult time with this - they want to be in control of everything - they are usually natural leaders - and there is nothing wrong with this - but for these types of personalities - it is very difficult to not consciously feel that they have to do something to control the aim and shot.

But if you are willing to learn and understand what instinctive shooting is - I believe it is by far the most enjoyable way to shoot a bow - at least for me.


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## Leon Hinton (Jul 4, 2010)

Sharpebroadhead well put I would like to shoot with you sometime.LCH


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LongStick64 said:


> Definition can only carry so far, especially in the case of "Instinctive" where it seems everyone has their own definition for it. It's not an exact science and should not be treated as such.


It actually is an exact science...if you know what you're talking about. 

For the person who has never really studied much about kinesiology or how how the mind and body connects...it won't be an exact science...but discussing the mechanics of how to aim Instinctively....really isn't any different than discussing how to aim Gap, Point of Aim, String Walking or Face Walking.

The primary reasons why it has become the holy grail for some is because they use the term Instinctive as a badge of honor to some how elevate themselves as superior archers, will use it to explain their poor shooting or will deny it's existence based on insecurities, fear or ignorance...because they don't fully understand it or are jealous of how someone can accurately do something well based on having superior hand and eye coordination. 

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> 2. You are limitted to one set up - ie: - If you want to shoot well insintctively - you need to shoot one bow and arrow combination so that it can become an extention of your self. If you are shooting bows that shoot different speeds (different trajectory) every other time you shoot - your subconscious mind will have conflicting feedback and it will either take much longer to get accurate - or it will be impossible.


Ken...i don't agree with this..alright...maybe to a small extent but...i can switch back and forth between my 44# longbow and my 54# recurve and by group #2?..i on and in there...i guess there's no disputing that i could be "more accurate" with one particular rig if that's all i shot but..i don't agree it's "impossible" to be accurate with more than one bow.



sharpbroadhead said:


> But if you are willing to learn and understand what instinctive shooting is - I believe it is by far the most enjoyable way to shoot a bow - at least for me.


That?..i thoroughly agree with...through and through.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LongStick64 said:


> As far as coaching, I thought Proper form was Primary to the education of the sport not a definition of a term right ? Yes I know what exactly proper form means is another holy grail but for the purpose of teaching I've never heard anyone teach a new archer aiming as a the primary principle.


I do NOT believe ANYONE has said that definitions or aiming should be taught as the primary aspect of learning to shoot a bow.

ANYONE who believes that is reading to much or making false assumptions based on someone wanting to explain what Instinctive aiming is and involves.

Form should be the primary aspect of every archer to learn and develop to the point it can be reproduced in a consistent and effective manner. When that has been achieved than aiming can be learned more efficiently and more effectively.

A great coach will be able to communicate to any student the proper techniques to shoot a bow...and knowing the correct definitions can by key in being able to communicate that accurately..whether the coach is discussing form or aiming techniques.

In archery...you can NOT have CONSISTENT accuracy without having CONSISTENT form...and you ALSO can NOT have CONSISTENT accuracy without being able to aim accurately. BOTH are VERY important to an archer.

Ray :shade:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I like these discussions, arguments, "frank exchange of views" threads. I always learn something. After a while you get to know peoples writing styles and can better understand their positions. Differences of opinion is good thing...as long as people play nice.

I _try_ to do what sharp says, unfortunately I am nowhere near as good at it. It does work and it's really a beautiful thing. But man...it's tough to ignore that arrow. I've tried to learn how to gap shoot but it has never worked for me, I must be missing some fundamental concept of gap shooting or haven't committed enough time to it. If I try to gap I loose my concentration on the target, the gaps are pretty big. There is something to the idea of the less I think about it the better I do. Easy to say, not so easy to accomplish.

I'm pretty sure my subconscious is doing some lining things up because my accuracy is much better and more consistent when I hold at anchor for a while. For me, snap or quick shooting often works for the first shot, then not so much after that. As long as I don't _look_ at the arrow I do pretty well, but the fact that I shoot better when I hold for a moment tells me I must be using the arrow to some extent. When I shoot at distances beyond about 25 yards, I shoot lower and lower and then have to go to a more conscious aim. I do better if I make a range judgement and just shoot at a spot _above_ where I want to hit. I guess I have a "shot" that works fairly well within hunting distances, say 30 yards max.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I do not aim using any references, gaps, point on or off, nothing - I look at the spot I want to hit and keep looking at it until the arrow impacts the target. My subconscious mind makes all the adjustments needed to get the arrow there.


You may claim that...but a picture is worth a 1000 words.

Anytime an object is within an archer's direct line of sight...the conscious mind can NOT completely ignore it...if the archer is CONSCIOUSLY focusing on the target.

When an archer....like yourself...has set up their bow and arrow and adjusted their form to place the arrow tip on target for a specific distance...the archer will not be aiming TOTALLY instinctively when shooting at that distance.

Ray :shade:


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## Pikkuhannu (Apr 3, 2009)

I use only bow, string & arrows. Nothing extra.

With two of my bows i shoot off the knuckle.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just to address another ridiculous claim that keeps coming up - where I am accused of lying about how I aim. This is the most silly of claims I have come accross to date, namely, that somehow - if the arrow is under the shooter eye and pointed at the target they are not shooting instinctive - LOL - if that is not the most moronic thing I have heard - I don't know what is - btw - check out this pick - one is me and one is the king of Instinctive himself - G Fred - wow - big difference there - LOL Sometimes the crap that gets posted on the net is just silly.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sharp.... who cares how you shoot... I'm marveled at how'd you can still shoot after patting yerself on the back so much....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just to address another ridiculous claim that keeps coming up - where I am accused of lying about how I aim. This is the most silly of claims I have come accross to date, namely, that somehow - if the arrow is under the shooter eye and pointed at the target they are not shooting instinctive - LOL - if that is not the most moronic thing I have heard - I don't know what is - btw - check out this pick - one is me and one is the king of Instinctive himself - G Fred - wow - big difference there - LOL Sometimes the crap that gets posted on the net is just silly.


uhmm..i gotta agree with you..cause i do see some big differences there..

G Fred is shadowing his feet with a somewhat oblique stance, canting his bow, his draw shoulder seems to be fully rotated and his draw elbow appears to be in spot-on alignment and a grip that seems to be a tad more closed (hard to tell in the cut-off pic) where you appear to be shooting straight-up, even stance with a higher elbow and not quite as much draw shoulder rotation with a very open grip...just my observation.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just to address another ridiculous claim that keeps coming up - where I am accused of lying about how I aim.


I honestly do NOT believe you are lying about how you aim. I truly believe that you have convinced yourself for whatever reason you have come up with that you aim TOTALLY instinctively.



sharpbroadhead said:


> This is the most silly of claims I have come accross to date, namely, that somehow - if the arrow is under the shooter eye and pointed at the target they are not shooting instinctive


Most archers if not ALL have the arrow under their eye somewhere...so that's NOT the particular aspect that is being discussed.

It's when an archer places their aiming reference directly in-line with their line of sight to the target where it can NOT be consciously ignored and aimed totally instinctive.

Whether an archer uses their arrow tip or a pin sight....it's really no different...when they are placing it on the target for a specific distance....whether the distance is known or guestimated subconsciously...and most of us know that using a pin sight is NOT aiming totally instinctive.

There IS a difference between aiming totally Instinctive and doing what you're doing.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm the only true Instinctive shooter here, everybody else who has the arrow in front of their eye is lying. :wink:









Sharp maybe you should post some video of yourself shooting aerial targets so we can fully appreciate your instinctve skills :thumbs_up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

steve morley said:


> I'm the only true Instinctive shooter here, everybody else who has the arrow in front of their eye is lying. :wink:
> 
> View attachment 1328728


I knew I was doing something wrong! That picture clears it up for me...:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

sorry - no video of ariel targets - but I have shot them - and I just got the video on ariel practice for pheasants - plan on trying that this summer


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve is spot on and that pic is a perfect illustration of the absolute ridiculousness of this idea that if the arrow is under your eye you are not instinctive - other than a few trick shooters - EVERYONE has the arrow under their eye - and as I pointed out - there is no difference in where my arrow is in relation to my eye and where Fred G has the arrow in relation to his eye. 

It does not matter - it would be like me calling someone a communist and then them denying it - and me saying - no they are a communist because to me they look like a communist - and when they deny it again - I will just say - I am not calling you a liar - you just have convinced yourself that you are not a communist, but I know you are because you look like you are - and I don't care how much you tell me you are not - you look like you are and therefore you are!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I'm the only true Instinctive shooter here, everybody else who has the arrow in front of their eye is lying. :wink:


Hey...using mirrors 'can' be a different story :wink:

That's a fun shot! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Steve is spot on and that pic is a perfect illustration of the absolute ridiculousness of this idea that if the arrow is under your eye you are not instinctive -


If that's what you think that illistration represents...you couldn't be further from the truth.

When an archer uses a mirror they are making conscious adjustments within the sight picture created by the mirror...especially when there is a lenghthy hold at anchor.

I have yet to see an archer shoot fluidly and fast using a mirror.



sharpbroadhead said:


> EVERYONE has the arrow under their eye -


Most everyone do....except when they are shooting upside down as when I shoot lying on my back.



sharpbroadhead said:


> there is no difference in where my arrow is in relation to my eye and where Fred G has the arrow in relation to his eye.


Really....absolutely no difference??? 

I see a difference. 

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If that's what you think that illistration represents...you couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> When an archer uses a mirror they are making conscious adjustments within the sight picture created by the mirror...especially when there is a lenghthy hold at anchor.
> 
> ...


Let me ask ANYONE here.. does anyone think that you can just pick up a bow and hit what you shoot at on the very first try with it? Do instinctive shooters get better with practice? If you answer no and yes, then it AINT INSTINCTIVE... it is IN MY OPINION... learned outcomes from a learned sight picture.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> It does not matter - it would be like me calling someone a communist and then them denying it - and me saying - no they are a communist because to me they look like a communist - and when they deny it again - I will just say - I am not calling you a liar - you just have convinced yourself that you are not a communist, but I know you are because you look like you are - and I don't care how much you tell me you are not - you look like you are and therefore you are!


Do you believe an archer can use a pin sight totally Instinctively?

If you do...you have convinced yourself or have been told inaccurate information on how our minds connect with our eyes and what we see.

If you do NOT...than you should understand that using the arrow tip in the same way is ALSO NOT aiming TOTALLY instinctively.

If you understand those...yet still claim to be aiming TOTALLY Instinctively as some other archers do...than you may be lying or in denial for what ever reason you choose.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Let me ask ANYONE here.. does anyone think that you can just pick up a bow and hit what you shoot at on the very first try with it? Do instinctive shooters get better with practice? If you answer no and yes, then it AINT INSTINCTIVE... it is IN MY OPINION... learned outcomes from a learned sight picture.


You're getting HUNG UP on the definition and how it is used within a BIOLOGY class.

The definition that is used in a BIOLOGY class is NOT the EXACT SAME definition being used to describe an aiming technique.

Do you know the difference between the two? If you do....please explain the differences.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

this is a good one to try and it makes you realise how much we shoot by overall sight picture without really knowing how much we use/rely on it, to make this shot work I have to ignore the sight pictue and point my top knucle of my bow hand at were I want the arrow to hit, it's the same basic aiming method I use for shooting aerial targets.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You're getting HUNG UP on the definition and how it is used within a BIOLOGY class.
> 
> The definition that is used in a BIOLOGY class is NOT the EXACT SAME definition being used to describe an aiming technique.
> 
> ...


First off, you *didn't really answer my question did you?* Let's start there shall we?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> this is a good one to try and it makes you realise how much we shoot by overall sight picture without really knowing how much we use/rely on it,
> 
> Soooo true...but some archers do it at a subconscious/unconscious level...while others do it consciously.
> 
> to make this shot work I have to ignore the sight pictue and *point my top knucle of my bow hand at were I want the arrow to h*it, it's the same basic aiming method I use for shooting aerial targets.


You do have to ignore what your normal sight picture should look like for that distance when you're that bent over.

The fact is that you do NOT ignore your sight picture....BUT...it's how you change your aiming reference from your arrow to your knuckle.

Whether you're using your knuckle consciously or subsconsciously/unconsciously...is determined on where it is within your vision and how you have learned to use it.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Let me ask ANYONE here.. does anyone think that you can just pick up a bow and hit what you shoot at on the very first try with it?


Yes...I've seen it done.



rattus58 said:


> Do instinctive shooters get better with practice?


Yes...just as ANY athlete does...throwing a ball, shooting a basketball, running sprints, etc. etc.



rattus58 said:


> If you answer no and yes, then it AINT INSTINCTIVE.


I agree...IF...the ONLY definition you are reffering to is the one we all were taught as it applies within a biology class.

Now it's your turn to answer mine :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1328768
> 
> 
> 
> this is a good one to try and it makes you realise how much we shoot by overall sight picture without really knowing how much we use/rely on it, to make this shot work I have to ignore the sight pictue and point my top knucle of my bow hand at were I want the arrow to hit, it's the same basic aiming method I use for shooting aerial targets.


 That may be, but in MY OPINION... you get to be where you are through a repetitive understanding of your equipment... such as a kid would with a BB gun. I have, after discussing this ad nauseum with folks, come to MY OWN CONCLUSIONS... as to instinctive and I've come up with two scenarios of shooters FOR MY OWN EDIFICATION... 

1) You shoot alot and you come to conciously/unconcsiously imprint what your sight picture gives you. Ferguson and other accomplished shooters, or maybe even yourself, get there in MY OPINION.. which you're free to do whatever you want with it.... from practice. Those are the "instinctively (substituted for subconsciously learned) applied "snap or shooting awareness" shooters. 

2) You shoot alot and you come to consciously/unconsciously imprint a gap/sighting/combination method of shooting. This is how I shoot. You're not using sights, but you're using sight.

This is my OPINION. :grin::beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> *Yes...I've seen it done.*
> Yes...just as ANY athlete does...throwing a ball, shooting a basketball, running sprints, etc. etc.
> 
> 
> ...


So have I.... but it was beginners luck. :grin: see above for my impressions of instinctive.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> 1) You shoot alot and you come to conciously/unconcsiously imprint what your sight picture gives you. Ferguson and other accomplished shooters, or maybe even yourself, get there in MY OPINION.. which you're free to do whatever you want with it.... from practice. Those are the "instinctively applied "snap or shooting awareness" shooters.
> 2) You shoot alot and you come to consciously/unconsciously imprint a gap/sighting/combination method of shooting. This is how I shoot. You're not using sights, but you're using sight.
> 
> This is my OPINION.


Do you realize...that is basically what I have been taught, learned and have been expalining in all my years as a fitness coach, medical exercise specialist and athlete?

The only difference is that you seem to have a hard time using the word INSTICTIVE to describe some of those processes with shooting an arrow.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you realize...that is basically what I have been taught, learned and have been expalining in all my years as a fitness coach, medical exercise specialist and athlete?
> 
> The only difference is that you seem to have a hard time using the word INSTICTIVE to describe some of those processes with shooting an arrow.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Not at all.... but I changed my position while you were typing... I apologize for being able to have a consistent thougt process... :grin: and I did use the word "instinctive" :grin:

So like the allstate guy... "its like we're connected!"... "yes we are"... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Not at all.... but I changed my position while you were typing... I apologize for being able to have a consistent thougt process... :grin: and I did use the word "instinctive" :grin:
> 
> So like the allstate guy... "its like we're connected!"... "yes we are"... :grin:


I'm a little confused...which doesn't surprize me :wink:

So do you believe there is a seperate and unique way to aim a barebow that is called Instinctive...that can be learned and further developed and isn't Gap aiming or any other specific barebow aiming technique?

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

surrendering the threasd to those who know sooooooooooooo much more than me about instinctive shooting - keep patting yourselves on the back on how much you know and what experts you are in archery and instinctive shooting - I am gonna keep shooting, killing deer, and winning shoots


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> surrendering the threasd to those who know sooooooooooooo much more than me about instinctive shooting - keep patting yourselves on the back on how much you know and what experts you are in archery and instinctive shooting - I am gonna keep shooting, killing deer, and winning shoots


 I refer you to Franks avatar... :grin:

View attachment 1328807


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> surrendering the threasd to those who know sooooooooooooo much more than me about instinctive shooting - keep patting yourselves on the back on how much you know and what experts you are in archery and instinctive shooting - I am gonna keep shooting, killing deer, and winning shoots


How am I NOT surprised by your comment...as if ANYONE could possibly be more educated than you in regards to kinseiology, sports medicine, sports psychology or anything to do with the mechanics of aiming Instinctively while you sit in your funeral home shooting your bow in between coffins? :mg:  :confused3: :jeez: 

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> I refer you to Franks avatar... :grin:
> 
> View attachment 1328807


That avatar is hilarious!

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm a little confused...which doesn't surprize me :wink:
> 
> So do you believe there is a seperate and unique way to aim a barebow that is called Instinctive...that can be learned and further developed and isn't Gap aiming or any other specific barebow aiming technique?
> 
> Ray :shade:


 When you ask a child to explain the concept of nuclear physics, you wind up with the Big Bang Theory.

I know of the two systems you read of my interpretations... of which what you are I'm thinking, scenario 1 for me. Gap/combinations/arrow alignments and such are 2... like I shoot. :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That avatar is hilarious!
> 
> Ray :shade:


 frankchugga over in PRM... :grin:


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

I'm glad just to be able to shoot! scout4


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I kinda didn't wanna post in this thread because of all the back and forth that is gong on 

I shoot what I would call instinctive 

I really have no idea consciously of where my tip is 

Now don't get me wrong I know the arrow is right in front of my eye so I am seeing it and I am sure some part of my brain is aiming it but if I focus on my arrow tips height I blow the shot 

If I pick up a different bow it takes me a awhile to dial in but that wonderful computer between your ears learns quickly 

I have often shot in complete darkness at candle flames and get very tight groups 

I don't know what to call it but that kind a shooting used to be called instinctive 

On my bow fishing rig it takes me the longest to switch oveR because of the roller rest I use with fishing arrows but eventually I start to hit

Now again I know my eyes are seeing the arrow but I am not conscious that I am gapping 

When I break a shot I just keep pulling till the shot goes off I know I fired it and I know there must be some kind of sight picture but I really don't focus on that

I am not a world class shot if I am not focused I blow shots. 

This type of shooting has gotten me a lot of good animals and a life time of struggleing to be a better shot but it keeps me coming back again and again and if I was going to consciously use a sight ( Tip of my arrow)I would use a sight  

Again I don't care how anybody shoOts or what they shoot as long as they shoot


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

it's true...high school never ends..does it. :laugh:

here's a vid of me shooting instinctively! :laugh:

[video]http://Jinkster.vidmeup.com/view?q=4f4ebea3cdcdb.flv[/video]


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> I kinda didn't wanna post in this thread because of all the back and forth that is gong on
> 
> I shoot what I would call instinctive
> 
> ...


What you have described...is in fact Instinctive aiming...UNLESS...you're aiming reference is in your direct line of sight to the target. I'm not talking about within your periphial vision...I'm talking your direct line of sight.

No one needs to the know the exact vocabulary or the specific terms to describe how they shoot to be able to shoot well.

Again...knowing how you shoot is really only important for teaching purposes.

Unfortunately...some people use the term for the wrong reasons.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

See... ifn yuda just kep yer eyes closed... yuda gottem all together... :grin: :thumbs_up


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What you have described...is in fact Instinctive aiming...UNLESS...you're aiming reference is in your direct line of sight to the target. I'm not talking about within your periphial vision...I'm talking your direct line of sight.
> 
> No one needs to the know the exact vocabulary or the specific terms to describe how they shoot to be able to shoot well.
> 
> ...


 So we're connecting then... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> here's a vid of me shooting instinctively! :laugh:


If you haven't already understood Instinctive aiming...than that video should help explain to you what your mind and body utilize to aim Instinctively.

How do you think you were able to keep all of your arrows on the same basic elevation while keeping your eyes closed?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> So we're connecting then... :grin:


:thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If you haven't already understood Instinctive aiming...than that video should help explain to you what your mind and body utilize to aim Instinctively.
> 
> How do you think you were able to keep all of your arrows on the same basic elevation while keeping your eyes closed?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Body position...form...and muscle memory?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> Now if I am understanding the "instinctive" thing correctly, I need not be concerned about the difference in arrow weight, speed, trajectory, or any setup aspect that differs from bow to bow.


Lol! Never said that. You need to learn each bow setup, how well you shoot when you swap bows will depend on the differences and your ability.



pokynojoe said:


> Most proponents of the instinctive method say that concentration and focusing on the spot you want to hit is required, but since he really couldn’t “see” the target, I suppose one wouldn’t be able to call what he did “instinctive.”


He could see a blur right? Knowing what to concentrate on is all he would need, part of the target would look different. But who knows what style he used and who cares with scores like that!


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If you haven't already understood Instinctive aiming...than that video should help explain to you what your mind and body utilize to aim Instinctively.
> 
> How do you think you were able to keep all of your arrows on the same basic elevation while keeping your eyes closed?
> 
> Ray :shade:


From memory...and memory is controlled by the conscious..as is everything we do that requires movement.The problem is folks refuse to really understand this.There is nothing below conscious thought...because in reality...when we shoot instinctively...it is from memory we do this..and when from memory..it is at a much faster rate than trying to analyze it..If it is faster..then there is no "sub" to this..it is not below..it is actually above conscious thought..The analytical part of the brain is controlled by the conscious..and it is what is used to verify our memories..If we have a memory that matches what we are seeing..there is no need to analyze what we has initiated..and the shot is executed successfully..It's that simple..but...those who believe the sub-conscious controls these actions...fail to take in we as a species..and multi task...

Want to read a interesting theory...? I for one know the brain as being the greatest biological computer known to man..and since our modern computers are based on the human brain to an extent...find this very plausable..

http://howourbrainswork.com/

Mac


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _surrendering the threasd to those who know sooooooooooooo much more than me about instinctive shooting - keep patting yourselves on the back on how much you know and what experts you are in archery and instinctive shooting -_


Well...that is quite revealing!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> From memory...and memory is controlled by the conscious..as is everything we do that requires movement.The problem is folks refuse to really understand this.There is nothing below conscious thought...because in reality...when we shoot instinctively...it is from memory we do this..and when from memory..it is at a much faster rate than trying to analyze it..If it is faster..then there is no "sub" to this..it is not below..it is actually above conscious thought..The analytical part of the brain is controlled by the conscious..and it is what is used to verify our memories..If we have a memory that matches what we are seeing..there is no need to analyze what we has initiated..and the shot is executed successfully..It's that simple..but...those who believe the sub-conscious controls these actions...fail to take in we as a species..and multi task...
> 
> Want to read a interesting theory...? I for one know the brain as being the greatest biological computer known to man..and since our modern computers are based on the human brain to an extent...find this very plausable..
> 
> ...


So Mac..who's gonna tell'em..me or you?..you know..the part where it's stated that when you entirely lose conscious thought?..they call that a...

*"COMA"* :laugh:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I can correlate in-stinck-tive shooting with the way I shoot......I stink!


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Sharp's statement about nobody else knowing more about instinctive shooting than he does, begs of questions needing answers.

If shooting instinctive; other than picking a spot and focusing on it, ignoring target distance and size, and then putting your brain in cruise control and letting your subconscious mind do the driving, what else does an instinctive shooter do different (form, bow setup, tune, release, etc,) than any other shooter not shooting instinctively, that only an instinctive shooter would/will know?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

ok now I`m going to stir it up...lol llol HOW DO THOSE old guys with the wood sling shots get so good and they shot from the hip some of them.. and these I mean are the tree wooden ones not c&c machined.. now thats instinctive...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> So Mac..who's gonna tell'em..me or you?..you know..the part where it's stated that when you entirely lose conscious thought?..they call that a...
> 
> *"COMA"* :laugh:


Or asleep...or in some trance state..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> I can correlate in-stinck-tive shooting with the way I shoot......I stink!




Thanks Remmy...I just blew coffee through my nose on that...

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> ok now I`m going to stir it up...lol llol HOW DO THOSE old guys with the wood sling shots get so good and they shot from the hip some of them.. and these I mean are the tree wooden ones not c&c machined.. now thats instinctive...


Well...since you are talking old...I'll tell you a old saying...

"practice makes perfect"

Mac


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MAC 11700 said:


> Thanks Remmy...I just blew coffee through my nose on that...
> 
> Mac


Hey man, I'm sorry LOL....I was just telling a truism that fits me to a tee, especially today.....


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> There is nothing below conscious thought...because in reality...when we shoot instinctively...it is from memory we do this.


Of course it's from memory...but how do you explain an Instinctive archer NOT consciously knowing EXACTLY where their aiming reference is to the target...other than that it's pointed in the general direction of the target?

How do you explain how a pitcher throws a ball and does the pitcher know EXACTLY where they begin to release the ball to throw it accurately even when they are consciously aware they are trying to throw a ball into the strike zone?

Or do you believe EVERY archer and every athlete consciously knows exactly where their aiming reference is to the target and can give exact meausurements whether they are throwing something or shooting it?

If an archer is consciously aware of EVERY aspect of their sight picture and exactly how they position themselves to shoot a target...why can't some archers tell you exactly what those gaps/measurements are?

Most professional athletic trainers, athletic coaches and others in the medical community explain these quick responses/actions/reactions being fine tuned or controlled unconsciously as in below a certain conscious level of awareness.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> So Mac..who's gonna tell'em..me or you?..you know..the part where it's stated that when you entirely lose conscious thought?..they call that a...


That's just it Jinkster...there are BOTH conscious and unconscious/subconscious actions and reactions going on at the same time when an archer aims Instinctively.

Know one I have seen, heard or read has said that an Instinctive archer aims while being totally unconscious...or do you disagree?

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

My statement was about poeple who do not shoot instinctively acting as if they no more than I do - when I do shoot instinctively - that was a hard thing to figure out - I guess, when considering the other statements and posts - that might have been very difficult to understand. We have guys telling us that there is no subconscious - this is like saying that the earth is flat - it is so absurd that - we have guys claiming that if the arrow is under your eye you are not shooting instinctive - guys who claim that everyone really gaps, or whatever - but the bottom line is that NONE OF THEM SHOOT INSTINCTIVELY - and you bet - since I do shoot instinctively - and I would also be willing to bet that I shoot more accurately than most of those making these comments - you bet I think i know a little more about instinctive shooting than they do. It would be like me commenting on how the army conducts military operations - I was never in the army - I am not in the army - and really have no business commenting on it - just like someone who does not shoot instinctive should just stay off threads asking how many people shoot instinctive - wow - what a novel idea - comment on what YOU know and YOU do.

I don't go on gap threads and try to tell guys how to gap shoot - hmmmm -


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Instinctive is just the term which has been applied to shooting a sight picture.
When people say they don't care about the range its true: they just shoot the same sight picture for every shot. This is how I shoot NFAA Trad 3D under 25yds, all for the same sight-picture, past there its gap.
So long as you are shooting a fast bow and staying within the range where this is effective then it works just fine. The faster your bow and the closer the arrow is to your eye the greater a number of distances it works for.

If a person was truely shooting without reference to their arrow tip then they would have no advantage using a high anchor or 3-under. 3-under can be debated as causing less nock pinch, but shooting a high-anchor causes all sorts of bio-mechanical problems (see OSBs high draw shoulder and slight creep). So if you see an "instinctive" archer using a high-anchor then its pretty obvious that they use the arrow point as a reference in their sight picture.

Now proprioception CAN be used to shoot a bow without a sight-picture, but does not offer much accuracy potential; similar to shooting from the hip.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> We have guys telling us that there is no subconscious - this is like saying that the earth is flat - it is so absurd that - we have guys claiming that if the arrow is under your eye you are not shooting instinctive - guys who claim that everyone really gaps, or whatever - but the bottom line is that NONE OF THEM SHOOT INSTINCTIVELY


Ummmm...I can shoot totally Instinctively and often do depending on the target and situation...so your claim is again WRONG!



sharpbroadhead said:


> since I do shoot instinctively - and I would also be willing to bet that I shoot more accurately than most of those making these comments - you bet I think i know a little more about instinctive shooting than they do.


Just because Tiger Woods can hit a golf ball does NOT mean that he also knows every definition that pertains to kinesiology and pshycology of the brain and body and how they work together...so again your reasoning is way off.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> My statement was about poeple who do not shoot instinctively acting *as if they no more than I do *- when I do shoot instinctively - that was a hard thing to figure out - I guess, when considering the other statements and posts - that might have been very difficult to understand. *We have guys telling us that there is no subconscious *- this is like saying that the earth is flat - it is so absurd that - we have guys claiming that if the arrow is under your eye you are not shooting instinctive - guys who claim that everyone really gaps, or whatever - but the bottom line is *that NONE OF THEM SHOOT INSTINCTIVELY *- and you bet - since I do shoot instinctively - *and I would also be willing to bet that I shoot more accurately than most of those making these comments -* you bet I think i know a little more about instinctive shooting than they do. It would be like me commenting on how the army conducts military operations - I was never in the army - I am not in the army - and really have no business commenting on it - *just like someone who does not shoot instinctive should just stay off threads asking how many people shoot instinctive *- wow - what a novel idea - comment on what YOU know and YOU do.
> 
> I don't go on gap threads and try to tell guys how to gap shoot - hmmmm -


Again and again, your arrogance and adoration of yourself continues to fill me with awe.... I'm callin Frank ..... :beer:

View attachment 1329136


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Instinctive is just the term which has been applied to shooting a sight picture.


There's actually more to it than JUST that.



grantmac said:


> When people say they don't care about the range its true: they just shoot the same sight picture for every shot.


Again...that's not true. Every archer...even Instinctive archers care to some extent on the range of the target...some just don't analytical range a target or think much about it...other than the target basically being a short, medium or long distance.



grantmac said:


> Now proprioception CAN be used to shoot a bow without a sight-picture, but does not offer much accuracy potential; similar to shooting from the hip.


But with an archer, who has been blessed with exceptional hand and eye coordination or has developed it to the exceptional level...can be surprisingly accurate.

The problem is...not everyone has that gift or has the time and perseverence to develop it to that level.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Of course it's from memory...but how do you explain an Instinctive archer NOT consciously knowing EXACTLY where their aiming reference is to the target...other than that it's pointed in the general direction of the target?
> 
> How do you explain how a pitcher throws a ball and does the pitcher know EXACTLY where they begin to release the ball to throw it accurately even when they are consciously aware they are trying to throw a ball into the strike zone?
> 
> ...


Ray...I can't help how these folks are saying it is happening..to me it isn't...and those who actually measure the brains responses know this as well..

A pitcher knows when and where to release the ball Ray...they practice it enough to know it..It is about timing...same as a golf swing..same as a tennis swing..same as anything else...it is done through repetition..and stored as memories..A brand new person to that sport..does not know what these folks know..because they have not stored these memories..

I don't believe any athlete can give exact measurements..no...and never said or implied they can..approximations based on memories...yes...and sometimes they can be exact..other times..they are off...

I can't tell you why some archers can tell you something and another can't..I'm not God Bro..but...I suspect some people are more adapt at doing things than others..some have better recall...some have more positive memories of doing something than others..I don't know..

These coaches..trainers..and some in the medical feild hold different beliefs..but..all have access to what is known..and what is measurable..If they choose to follow a theory..over what is proven medical knowledge...then that is their choice...isn't it..but...that doesn't make what they espouse as accurate...does it.We can liken this to a below conscious thought...but..that is not really the best way to describe it..since we already initiated that thought and set things in motion..If we use the word subconscious...as a description of the event..that is one thing..but..to use the word as a physical location or totally separate conciseness that is capable of thought...is where I disagree.. 

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

There is another totally ignorant statement by someone who knows nothing about shooting instinctive - Grant claims that instintive shooters all shoot the same sight picture - lets see if this is even possible. I shot in two indoor 3D leagues in one my average is just under a 9 per target out to 35 yards and in my other league I average just under a 10 per target out to 25 yards.

Soooo lets see - the same sight picture at 10 yards and at 35 yards - lets look at a ballistics calculator - and we will use my 214 fps arrows - which are very fast - the slower the arrow the more dramatic the drop.

Soooo - If I used the sight picture of a 10 yard shot for a 35 yard shot - what would happen:

here is the link for you to plug the numbers in yourself: http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery/archbal.asp

If I used the sight picture that is used for a 10 yard shot on a 35 yard shot with my 348 grain 214 fps arrow - I would be shooting a mere 35 inches low - but hey - maybe on those giant Fita targets - being 35 yards low is ok but on a 3d animal target - that doesn't cut it.

Lets say I used the 25 yard sight picture as he calls it on a 35 yard shot: 

If I had a sight on my bow zeroed in at 25 yards - and used that sight and shot it at 35 yards - heck I would only be 14.2 inches low - heck that's a kill - if I was shooting at a Elephant - MAYBE!

Lets go to the shorter range and lets say that my bow has a sight on it set for 10 yards and I shoot 25 yards - the supposed area that the expert grant says is the same sight picture:

10 yard sight picture shooting 25 yards - heck - that is only a 14.8 inch drop - yea - that would work on a whitetail target - what a joke

To illustrate this even more - what if I had a sight set at 15 yards and shot 25 yards - my arrow would drop 10 inches!

Do you see the absolute absurdity of such a claim - do you really think I could be averagin a 268 on a 30 target 3D range that has shots on animals like raccoons quartering away from 10 to 35 yards if I was using the same "sight picture" for every shot and dropping 35 or 14 inches on shots? Or that I could average a 477 on a 48 target 3D course with targets from 5 yards to 25 yards if I used the same "sight picture" on every shot?

These comments by people who think they know - are freakin' laughable - they have no clue and should not even be speaking on a method of shooting that they do not do and obviously know nothing about. And then to claim that when I shoot more than 25 yards I suddenly gap shoot - that is bovine excrement - I shoot to 50 yards in my yard and on some outdoor ranges and I never gap shoot - I shoot the same way if it is 10 yards or 50 yards - I pic a spot and keep looking at it and shoot.

And then this character rattus has the gonads to call me arrogant - I don't go on gap threads and tell gap shooters how to shoot or try to teach others about gap shooting - the arrogant ones are the onse who do not shoot instinctive and know nothing about it - but yet think they are experts and are commenting on a thread that is asking who shoots instinctve - when they clearly do not.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Not knowing the specifics about something does not prohibit asking questions or not being in agreement when the person has knowledge and skills that are relative. A chopper pilot might not know how to pilot a jet or a jet pilot a chopper, but they both have knowledge and skills that are relative. 

To say...to proclaim...that an experienced and skilled archer has no right or no relative skills to pose questions or be skeptical about certain claims regarding instinctive shooting, is the height of arrogance.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That's just it Jinkster...there are BOTH conscious and unconscious/subconscious actions and reactions going on at the same time when an archer aims Instinctively.
> 
> Know one I have seen, heard or read has said that an Instinctive archer aims while being totally unconscious...or do you disagree?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray?..i'm just mess'in with ya man..as you asked me a question earlier of..



BLACK WOLF said:


> If you haven't already understood Instinctive aiming...than that video should help explain to you what your mind and body utilize to aim Instinctively.
> 
> How do you think you were able to keep all of your arrows on the same basic elevation while keeping your eyes closed?


to which i would respond with just what i said.."Here's a vid of me shooting instinctively"..i mean what else did i have to rely on?...there were no visual ques...no sight picture..no point-on anything..and just today i toyed around with what grant speaks of below where i was changing up between split-finger and 3-under..changing up between straight up with a slight cant anchoring to the corner of my mouth too shadowing my feet with a heavy cant and drawing to right under my eye 3-under looking straight down the shaft and?..it seemed the first arrow was always a bit of a surprise but all that followed were right there as my minds computer could re-adjust for whatever anchor, string hold or style i shot..within 1-2 arrows..and i found that quite intriguing cause the one thing i definantly ain't is a point-on gapper as with most my holds, anchor and style?..by the time i get 1/2 way back through the draw?..that point is somewhere in the dirt..mostly cause i'm finding that i'm most comfy with a square draw across the chest..where my hands and elbows are all in-line with my shoulders with whatever slight angle comp that goes on which puts my stringhand v-ing the jawbone..and there's a huge gap between my eye and the arrow point but guess what?..the arrows still in the big picture..as is many other things..but they are all secondary periphials and when it ALL LOOKS RIGHT?..in those last few milliseconds just before i release?..all i see is the spot..the rest disappears...into what i guess is my subconscious...so it's official..i'm in a coma. :laugh:


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> I have 7 hunting bows that have draw-weights that range from 34# to 54#...one bow is a 66" longbow 26#@26"; each one is setup differently and shooting arrows that may/do differ in static and dynamic spine. During the deer season I often use two of the bows, and sometimes in the course of the hunting day I may switch out from one bow to another.
> 
> Now if I am understanding the "instinctive" thing correctly, I need not be concerned about the difference in arrow weight, speed, trajectory, or any setup aspect that differs from bow to bow. All I have to do is just not over-think the shot or not think about the shot at all, don't concern myself with target distance...don't even think about it, don't concern myself with target height or position, don't think about the small fire zone and shot timing; just pick a spot, focus on the spot, and surrender all shot concerns over to the subconscious mind and all things will be taken care of for me regardless which setup I may be shooting and the shooting condition I am facing.
> 
> That's some cool stuff!


 I shoot "split vision" if we will play the name game here, but I do not feel an archer can pick up any bow and be on right off. For myself it takes about 5-10 shot at unknown distance and I'll get the feel of the bow. Last 
Personally I feel it is more important for an instinctive shooter to be a one bow person than a shooter with an aiming system


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> There is another totally ignorant statement by *someone who knows nothing about shooting instinctive *- Grant claims that instintive shooters all shoot the same sight picture - lets see if this is even possible.


Where the hell do you get off from? Here again, you are making not only offensive comments, calling someone ignorant, you are making a statement from a position of complete ignorance yourself. You don't know ANYTHING about how Grant or me or anyone else shoots and for you to call someone ignorant of their own means of shooting illustrates not only your own inability to converse with people it shows your lack of civility and I'm thinking your insecurity. How the Administrators allow you this disrespect is completely beyond me.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _If I had a sight on my bow zeroed in at 25 yards - and used that sight and shot it at 35 yards - heck I would only be 14.2 inches low_


That is incorrect information but would be correct for Sharp, a result of Sharp not being a sight or gap shooter. Because he does not possess relative skills he should not be discussing and giving an opinion on the matter. I know more than he does about using a sight or any other aiming method. In fact, I am the greatest thing since sliced bread with a sight on a trad bow... just ask me.

However, to show how limited his all-round ability is; a shooter using a sight for bowhunting will know that he or she will need to know or estimate the target distance to know which pin to use or how to adjust the vertical and horizontal gap for a particular target that might be at a range that is greater or less than any of his or pins or pin. If I have multiple pins on my sight and the longest distance pin is set for 25 yards but the target is at 35 yards, I will know and I will gap the difference. 

Granted; Sharp would miss because he doesn't know how to estimate distance and doesn't care. Being so, he would not know that the deer is at 35 yards and probably would use his 25 yard pin, dead-on.... because his subconscious mind would be sulking because Sharp was using a sight and estimating distance. Subconscious minds are like that; they are very jealous.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> We can liken this to a below conscious thought...but..that is not really the best way to describe it..since we already initiated that thought and set things in motion..If we use the word subconscious...as a description of the event..that is one thing..but..to use the word as a physical location or totally separate conciseness that is capable of thought...is where I disagree..


As you already know...we're pretty much on the same page. There has been nothing proven on where the conscious mind exists within the brain...there's only theory...and some of it is very revealing. In saying so....there is also nothing been proven on where the unconscious mind exists within the brain.

I do believe that using subconscious or unconscious is the best way to describe how an Instinctive shooter uses the body and mind to make fine adjustments to their aim.

I've used this as an example before:

It's very similar to how a General will give orders to a sub-class officer.

The General initiates the orders and is responsible for starting the action/reaction...but it is the sub-class officer that carries them out without the General knowing the sub-class officers EVERY move.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> As you already know...we're pretty much on the same page. There has been nothing proven on where the conscious mind exists within the brain...there's only theory...and some of it is very revealing. In saying so....there is also nothing been proven on where the unconscious mind exists within the brain.
> 
> I do believe that using subconscious or unconscious is the best way to describe how the body and mind make fine adjustments to an archer's aim who is aiming Instinctively.
> 
> ...


Yeah.... my stomach tells its ready for dinner.. and without thinking about it, my feet get me to the table... :grin:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> As you already know...we're pretty much on the same page. There has been nothing proven on where the conscious mind exists within the brain...there's only theory...and some of it is very revealing. In saying so....there is also nothing been proven on where the unconscious mind exists within the brain.
> 
> I do believe that using subconscious or unconscious is the best way to describe how an Instinctive shooter uses the body and mind to make fine adjustments to their aim.
> 
> ...


That is not actually correct Ray...they have proven where the conscious eminates from ..and what controls us..

Medical science has long known what parts of the brain control many things...they have been experimenting for hundreds if not thousands of years..but..this therory of subconscious thought...is ralatively new as compared..

Decribing it as "subconscious"..derives from a time of little actual knowledge of how the brain actually functioned...and is closer to Sharpies comments about "flat earthers" than what I've been saying all along.Much of their therory is not based on proven measurable facts...but..suppositions and conjecture...as most theories usually are..They didn't have super computers..MRI machines/Cat scan machines/Pet scan machines...and it wasn't untill the invention of the EEG machines did they even know there was waves that could be detected in the brain..Modern medicine has come a long way in pin pointing many things..and will continue to do so..not being stuck with antiquidated beliefs..

Every person that picks up a bow and has shot it before..has a memory of doing it..something the analitical part of the brain can and does use to once the command has been given to shoot it again...This is the reason we can make adjustments to correct a arrow hitting left/right..in a wind..or up/down at unknown distances..

It's not magic...even though it is magical..it happens at all...in some...better than others..

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> That is not actually correct Ray...they have proven where the conscious eminates from ..and what controls us.


So where does the conscious mind eminate from?

Where is it exactly?

I have read the theories...but how was it proven beyond any doubt?

If you believe it is found within a specific spot in the brain...most of us know that each part of the brain is responsible for specific functions of the body...just as our military has specific people in command that give orders to carry out specific functions to meet specific goals...than where in the brain do each of these functions eminate from: hand and eye coordination, intuition and proprioception?



MAC 11700 said:


> Every person that picks up a bow and has shot it before..has a memory of doing it..*something the analitical part of the brain can and does use* to once the command has been given to shoot it again...This is the reason we can make adjustments to correct a arrow hitting left/right..in a wind..or up/down at unknown distances..


Is there ANY opther part of the brain that can use that information (memories) too?

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Grant claims that instintive shooters all shoot the same sight picture - lets see if this is even possible.
> 
> Soooo lets see - the same sight picture at 10 yards and at 35 yards - lets look at a ballistics calculator - and we will use my 214 fps arrows - which are very fast - the slower the arrow the more dramatic the drop.
> 
> Soooo - If I used the sight picture of a 10 yard shot for a 35 yard shot - what would happen:


I see you have no real understanding of Gap/Split-vision aiming, the Gap isnt an exact science it's just a general get me somewhere on target, the fine tune aiming adjustments are done below conscious level, so all I need out to 40y is one basic get me on target Gap, once I start really focussing into the spot I will make those fine tune adjustments. One of the reasons why people first learning Gap are all over the target, because they're measuring/looking for the Gap, it's not untill you learn to pay less attention to the Gap and focus on the spot do they start to see their groups shrink.

From somebody who has shot them all, Instinctive Gap, Split-vision and POA, it is my experience/opinion were all using the same basic aiming methods, we use everything available arrow, Sight picture, spatial awareness, memory etc etc, just some are accessing this same info on different levels of consciousness.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> So where does the conscious mind eminate from?
> 
> Where is it exactly?
> 
> ...


Your not asking for much are you...lol...lol...lol

Let's see...if memory serves me correctly...

Eye-hand coordination...all of the CNS..the cerebral cortex..sub-cortial cortex..the basal ganglia and brain stem..Also..the frontal and parietal cortex areas..as well as the parieto occipital junction and the posterior parietal cortex..

Proprioception..that's easier..the cerabellum..

Intuition...boy oh boy...which version would you like..the Carl Jung version of 1921..or the newer standards..? BTW...you should know that he was proven wrong in 1 validated tests..once in 1944 with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test...and again over a period of years from 1977 to 2004 by various studies done by researchers at Yale University and Ohio State University..and the University of Pittsburgh..unless you are refering to the religous aspect...or the spiritual aspect as some prefer to call it...and I'm not even going to get into that here..

Ohhh...where does the conscious come from..that is a good one..let's just say..I am in agreement with several studies done on patients showing electrical stimuli to the primary visual cortex..but also showing the same neural link within the prefrontal cortex..this coordination..in the higher brain areas..allows us to do what we do..and allow the executive orders to be given in their proper sequence..top down...or as you like to say..the genneral to the private...lol

What other parts of the brain are associated with memories..well...last time I checked..it was the hippocampus, the amygdala, the striatum..along with all of the neural path ways and synaps through out the entire brain..memories can be stored..in many parts of the brain..not just these..


Anything else :wink:


Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I think we have gone far enough off track on this..

Remmy...I can shoot by all methods..and can shoot all methods well enough to kill what I am hunting..That is what is really the most important thing there is about all of this to me..

Shoot how ever you are capable..and don't worry about what others think..you don't have to win tournaments to be able to discuss how "you" shoot..wither some folks ego's won't allow them to think so..

Get well soon Bro

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

uhmmm..why do i feel like this now?..


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Man, I didn't realize that I was getting into such a deep, profound idealog that would bring out the dogmatics among us........it CAN be a simple thing in my mind. DO YOU LOOK AT THE TARGET AND CONCENTRATE ON THE BULLSEYE (WHERE YOU WANT THE ARROW TO GO) OR DO YOU SHOOT SPOTS ETC? ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rembrandt said:


> Man, I didn't realize that I was getting into such a deep, profound idealog that would bring out the dogmatics among us........it CAN be a simple thing in my mind. DO YOU LOOK AT THE TARGET AND CONCENTRATE ON THE BULLSEYE (WHERE YOU WANT THE ARROW TO GO) OR DO YOU SHOOT SPOTS ETC? ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE!



COME ON! Over 19000 posts and you did'nt know about this great exchange that takes place almost monthly?

It seems that there are some of us who know how to shoot instinctively,some who understand it to an extent but are not real sure about their ability and some who just don't understand at all.

Those who do understand and know how to do it never change their style of shooting because it works well for them. Sometimes they attempt to convey their knowledge to others.

Those who sorta understand but question their ability to be consistent with that style seem to be constantly trying various methods in search of the answer to what works for them. 

Those who just don't 'get it' can't accept that others do 'get it', and go to great lengths to try and prove to the rest of us that it just can't possibly be true. Since these people are very wise men and know tons of stuff about brain function,how our eyes work and exactly how these things work together, they feel qualified to argue continously with those who have been shooting instinctively for many years.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? :angel:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

FORESTGUMP said:


> COME ON! Over 19000 posts and you did'nt know about this great exchange that takes place almost monthly?
> 
> It seems that there are some of us who know how to shoot instinctively,some who understand it to an extent but are not real sure about their ability and some who just don't understand at all.
> 
> ...


You've got to remember that I haven't been into trad shooting very long and I've been on here about two months so I'm not up on all the intrisinc or intrusive threads in the past.....I was looking for some simple answers on this and not some mind bending profound orgasms about instinctive shooting....if I had known I wouldn't have asked. I'd rather everything went cool on here with no disagreements but I realize thats not gonna happen. All that stuff is too deep for my substandard thinking so I will decipher what I can and try to apply it to my learning expierance.......LOL, I have to laugh cause I can't seriously believe that some people take everything so seriously! I thought we were here to have fun and help others.......at least thats why I'm here!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> COME ON! Over 19000 posts and you did'nt know about this great exchange that takes place almost monthly?
> 
> It seems that there are some of us who know how to shoot instinctively,some who understand it to an extent but are not real sure about their ability and some who just don't understand at all.
> 
> ...


Makes sense to me!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> You've got to remember that I haven't been into trad shooting very long and I've been on here about two months so I'm not up on all the intrisinc or intrusive threads in the past.....I was looking for some simple answers on this and not some mind bending profound orgasms about instinctive shooting....if I had known I wouldn't have asked. I'd rather everything went cool on here with no disagreements but I realize thats not gonna happen. All that stuff is too deep for my substandard thinking so I will decipher what I can and try to apply it to my learning expierance.......LOL, I have to laugh cause I can't seriously believe that some people take everything so seriously! I thought we were here to have fun and help others.......at least thats why I'm here!


Rem..ya need to keep in mind that when this monthly exchange takes place?..if your not a neurosurgeon with a doctorate in physcology?..you don't quailify..me?..i just tag along on the fringes hoping to learn sumpt'im through osmosis..which at times turns into reverse-osmosis. :laugh:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ForestGump is spot on


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> Rem..ya need to keep in mind that when this monthly exchange takes place?..if your not a neurosurgeon with a doctorate in physcology?..you don't quailify..me?..i just tag along on the fringes hoping to learn sumpt'im through osmosis..which at times turns into reverse-osmosis. :laugh:


I'm beginning to see what your saying. My idea behind the question was honest and simple to me but it got out of hand with others.....I guess I need to sit back and do as you say......get it thru osmosis! Some will sink in I hope but I'm notorious about opening my big mouth and many times misread cause I'm not a doctorate degree individual but just a lowly 2 degree art grad..........


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ForestGump is spot on


So Ken...you agree folks minds are often times wired different?..

some got it and are naturals?..

some don't..but can be taught and hafta work for it?..

then again?..

Some don't and never will even with instruction and massive effort?....(and it's these folks who will be a thorn in the paw of the ones who can?)

I agree...some skills folks are born and blessed with...others?..may attain them through an open-mind and effort..others yet?..have a closed mind (even though they'll deny it) and get so angry with themselves they lash out rather than absorb in. JMHO.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ah - no - that is not what he said

Everyone (barring some disability) has the ability to aim a bow at a subconscious level (instinctive) - just like most all of us can throw a ball accurately - but we will not all be pro-baseball players or break a freethrow record.

but everyone can do it - we all can throw a ball and after learning basic form - we can all aim a bow at a subconscious level

The issues i that some people put up a mental block


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> I'm beginning to see what your saying. My idea behind the question was honest and simple to me but it got out of hand with others.....I guess I need to sit back and do as you say......get it thru osmosis! Some will sink in I hope but I'm notorious about opening my big mouth and many times misread cause I'm not a doctorate degree individual but just a lowly 2 degree art grad..........


Well don't feel too bad..i dropped outta HS...twice..in the 12th grade..i was too smart for that shid..found it boring..joined the USMC..scored a 128GT (outta 150)..anything over 120 was automatic OTC (Officers Training)...which they offered me 3 weeks into basic as i also had 20/20-20/15 vision..and asked..how would ya like to fly those jets instead of work on'em?..I had 4 years gaurenteed airwing..offered a 10 year commitment..4 years college/2 years Officer-Flight training/4 years flying'em..then got turned down by the base commander cause..i didn't have a HS education..first thing i did when i got out?..night school..no GED..i wanted a diploma..and got it..then almost got a 2 year AS deg. in Manufacturing Technolgies but..got put on 2nd shift towards the end..working for Pratt & Whitneys Large Military Jet Engine R&D/Test Facility in W.P.B., FL...so i'm no neurologist/psychologist either! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> COME ON! Over 19000 posts and you did'nt know about this great exchange that takes place almost monthly?
> 
> It seems that there are some of us who know how to shoot instinctively,some who understand it to an extent but are not real sure about their ability and some who just don't understand at all.
> 
> ...


If you are an accurate shooter of bows and arrows without the aid of sights and you only spent time learning about archery from a target line at 20 yards, are you liable to be effective at roving the next day?

Aloha... :beer:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> Well don't feel too bad..i dropped outta HS...twice..in the 12th grade..i was too smart for that shid..found it boring..joined the USMC..scored a 128GT (outta 150)..anything over 120 was automatic OTC (Officers Training)...which they offered me 3 weeks into basic as i also had 20/20-20/15 vision..and asked..how would ya like to fly those jets instead of work on'em?..I had 4 years gaurenteed airwing..offered a 10 year commitment..4 years college/2 years Officer-Flight training/4 years flying'em..then got turned down by the base commander cause..i didn't have a HS education..first thing i did when i got out?..night school..no GED..i wanted a diploma..and got it..then almost got a 2 year AS deg. in Manufacturing Technolgies but..got put on 2nd shift towards the end..working for Pratt & Whitneys Large Military Jet Engine R&D/Test Facility in W.P.B., FL...so i'm no neurologist/psychologist either! :laugh:


But you got alot of quality education in your background......


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ah - no - that is not what he said
> 
> Everyone (barring some disability) has the ability to aim a bow at a subconscious level (instinctive) - just like most all of us can throw a ball accurately - but we will not all be pro-baseball players or break a freethrow record.
> 
> ...


I disagree..only cause i played mustang/pony/HS league baseball and i'm here ta tell ya..

not everybody can throw a ball..accurately...let alone consistantly...a fact that often times gets overlooked as i giggle to myself everytime someone makes that analogy between archery and throwing a ball...and if ya don't believe me?..next time your at the fair check out the folks throwing baseballs at the clown in the dunktank. :laugh:

Our leagues practiced 3 times a week and saturday afternoons and i can't tell ya how many grossly mis-thrown balls, during critical game moments..i wound up shagging down..and one of the worst nightmare missions a player that could throw might encounter?..is the coach ordering you to instruct and teach another player who couldn't throw too throw..accurately..and consistantly..and no way..at some point i learned the following phrase when assigned such tasks.."Coach?..it seems some natural skills and abilities can't be conveyed."....(Rem?..are ya reading this?..you might come in handy here)..so how about "artistic skills"?..some have it...some don't but can be taught..and others yet don't have it..can't get it..and never will and will never do anything but aggravate themselves and others trying. 

I've seen major examples of this through marine corps basic training as well..some skills guys excelled at in a near superhuman way..but there'd always be that one (or more) weakness..somewhere...and no matter how hard the D.I.'s hammered'em about it?..they just didn't get it..and it was simply beyond their mental/physical grasp.

all i got.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

rattus58 said:


> If you are an accurate shooter of bows and arrows without the aid of sights and you only spent time learning about archery from a target line at 20 yards, are you liable to be effective at roving the next day?
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


Good question.......I'm thinking I will eventually have to hit the 3-D range and get some expierance.....I joined the Coosa Valley Archers and they have great targets that I have access to all year. I get 12 free rounds on that range at 20 animals. That should get me ready for some varying lengths to the target......


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Those who do understand and know how to do it *never* change their style of shooting because it works well for them. Sometimes they attempt to convey their knowledge to others.


Never change?

Gotta disagree. AQn archer does NOT need to ONLY aim Instinctively to understand it.

I'm not one of the few who have been blessed with exceptional hand and eye coordination to hit targets while aiming at any distance under every circumstance.

I personally have found that each aiming technique will have it's inherent advantages and disadvantages...so I try to use the best aiming technique for a specific shot based on those....so for any shot that requires that I draw and shoot quickly I aim Instinctively. For targets where I can take more time and/or at further distances...I will aim Instinctive Gap...and where targets are close to my Point On Distance...I will use Point of Aim or a more conscious Gap technique.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Your not asking for much are you...lol...lol...lol


I know...but I knew you could handle it...so thanks :wink:

Some of this I already studied but wanted to see if we were on the same page.



MAC 11700 said:


> Eye-hand coordination...all of the CNS..the cerebral cortex..sub-cortial cortex..the basal ganglia and brain stem..Also..the frontal and parietal cortex areas..as well as the parieto occipital junction and the posterior parietal cortex..
> 
> Proprioception..that's easier..the cerabellum..
> 
> ...


It kind of sounds like you agree that some of the answers are still out there...and even with some of the answers we don't know with absolute certainty how every aspect of the brain functions...which is one of the things I wanted to make clear.



MAC 11700 said:


> What other parts of the brain are associated with memories..well...last time I checked..it was the hippocampus, the amygdala, the striatum..along with all of the neural path ways and synaps through out the entire brain..memories can be stored..in many parts of the brain..not just these..


This also helps explain why I believe the conscious mind is NOT COMPLETELY controling EVERY aspect of how an archer aims.

If the conscious part of our brain isn't in complete control of our proprioception, hand and eye coordination and intuition because there are other areas of the brain controling those aspects...than that tells me there is something else aiding in controling those if the conscious mind isn't in complete control. That to me is what the subconscious/unconscious minds is. As it applies to an archer aiming Instinctively...it's the conscious mind through faith or intuition allowing different areas of the brain and the body to respond based on what it has stored within it's memories while the conscious mind is totally focused on the target.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jinkster - does everyone who picks up a bow with sights get great or even good at it? does everyone who gap shoots shoot well? Does everyone who uses point on shoot good? If not - why do you expect that me saying that everyone can shoot a bow instinctively means that everyone is going to be great at it? I never said that.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

I move that we create a new board, the philosophy of traditional archery because if some believe we are talking about an exact science, this has been nothing but brag drag out of conceptual ideas that hasn't informed me of anything useful to apply. If you'll disagree, tell me one thing you have learned and applied from this theoretical session of sorts.
As far as the entertainment value, high marks !!!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jinkster - does everyone who picks up a bow with sights get great or even good at it? does everyone who gap shoots shoot well? Does everyone who uses point on shoot good? If not - why do you expect that me saying that everyone can shoot a bow instinctively means that everyone is going to be great at it? I never said that.


now you're getting into what i believe is the only thing you do better than trad archery...symantics.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> I move that we create a new board, the philosophy of traditional archery because if some believe we are talking about an exact science, this has been nothing but brag drag out of conceptual ideas that hasn't informed me of anything useful to apply. If you'll disagree, tell me one thing you have learned and applied from this theoretical session of sorts.
> As far as the entertainment value, high marks !!!


well?..ya gotcher boneheads, eggheads and deadheads..and this thread is helping sort us all out! :laugh:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - now stating the truth is symantics - this thread is hysterical.

Lets see what we have so far among the archers who do not shoot instinctively - but feel the need to comment on the subject as if they are experts...

We have a guy who thinks that anytime the arrow is under the shooters eye and aimed at the target the shooter is not shooting instinctive - classic

We have a guy who thinks he is a neurosurgeon and expert on the function of the human brain - awesome 

We have a guy who thinks that instictive shooters shoot the exact same sight picture whether they are shooting 10 yards or 25 yards - that is amazing 

We have a guy who thinks that if one states that anyone can shoot instinctively - but not everyone will become a pro at it - and that is symantics

And the guys who actually do shoot instictively and actually know what they are talking about are driven from the thread by these guys and the nonsense.

As I have said before - you don't see the instinctive shooter hijacking gap threads - you don't see instinctive shooters going on gap threads and telling gap shooters how gap shooting is really done or pretending to be experts on the human brain and using a bunch of mumbo jumbo "science" to explain how gap shooting works

It is really rather silly


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - now stating the truth is symantics - this thread is hysterical.
> 
> Lets see what we have so far among the archers who do not shoot instinctively - but feel the need to comment on the subject as if they are experts...
> 
> ...


How is gap shooting not learned? How is a sight picture not learned? I'll ask again... if you have learned to shoot on a target line at 20 yards without aids , will you be successful tomorrow roving?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - now stating the truth is symantics - this thread is hysterical.
> 
> Lets see what we have so far among the archers who do not shoot instinctively - but feel the need to comment on the subject as if they are experts...
> 
> ...


are you feeling a tad judgemental today Ken?..maybe even superior?..i mean..don't hold back bro..just let it all hang out! :laugh:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hmm...I was asked a few questions..and I tried to answer them to the best of my ability..

I am now being accused of something I am not..and being accused of not knowing how to shoot instinctively by a idiot here..fine..you guys keep it..live it..enjoy it..

Good Luck Remmy...I hope everything works out for you..

Mac


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MAC 11700 said:


> Hmm...I was asked a few questions..and I tried to answer them to the best of my ability..
> 
> I am now being accused of something I am not..and being accused of not knowing how to shoot instinctively by a idiot here..fine..you guys keep it..live it..enjoy it..
> 
> ...


Thanks Mac and I apologize for getting you into this.....doesn't have to be like this at all but some folks want to be argumentive when its not necessary. I've always been taught to respect others and their opinion......I always want to see others like that but its not that way in the real world it seems........


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Yep - I feel judgement against people who do not shoot instinctive and know nothing about it making comments about it that are simply not true. I find it hysterical that there are people who actually deny that our brain is capable of doing things below our conscious level (subconscious), I find it hysterical that any archer can think that one can use the exact same sight pic for a ten yard shot as he would for a 25 yard shot and still be accurate, I find it hysterical that when someone like myself who is an instinctive shooter corrects all these false statements - that I am considered arrogant and judgemental.

I would love to see how this went if I went into a gap shooting thread and started making all sorts of false claims about gap shooting - but you see - it is precisely because I am not arrogant and judgmental that I would not do that - I don't gap shoot and I have no business even having an opinion on how it is done or what part of the brain does it - since I know nothing about it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Yep - I feel judgement against people who do not shoot instinctive and know nothing about it making comments about it that are simply not true. I find it hysterical that there are people who actually deny that our brain is capable of doing things below our conscious level (subconscious), I find it hysterical that any archer can think that one can use the exact same sight pic for a ten yard shot as he would for a 25 yard shot and still be accurate, I find it hysterical that when someone like myself who is an instinctive shooter corrects all these false statements - that I am considered arrogant and judgemental.
> 
> I would love to see how this went if I went into a gap shooting thread and started making all sorts of false claims about gap shooting - but you see - it is precisely because I am not arrogant and judgmental that I would not do that - I don't gap shoot and I have no business even having an opinion on how it is done or what part of the brain does it - since I know nothing about it.


Yeah see you making all these corrections without answering any questions....


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LOL! Rock on! :guitarist2:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Yep - I feel judgement against people who do not shoot instinctive and know nothing about it making comments about it that are simply not true. I find it hysterical that there are people who actually deny that our brain is capable of doing things below our conscious level (subconscious), I find it hysterical that any archer can think that one can use the exact same sight pic for a ten yard shot as he would for a 25 yard shot and still be accurate, I find it hysterical that when someone like myself who is an instinctive shooter corrects all these false statements - that I am considered arrogant and judgemental.
> 
> I would love to see how this went if I went into a gap shooting thread and started making all sorts of false claims about gap shooting - but you see - it is precisely because I am not arrogant and judgmental that I would not do that - I don't gap shoot and I have no business even having an opinion on how it is done or what part of the brain does it - since I know nothing about it.


You will note that I did not mention names. Everyone knows which category they fit in.
Seems that you and I are the ones who 'get it' and never change our position on the subject. Too bad we don't get the opportunity to help those who don't 'get it'. 
When you can look at the target that you wish to hit and shoot it without all the other hassels, I don't see the need to figure out which part of my brain is doing what at that moment. My grandson is getting better at it every time he shoots and he's about to graduate kindergarten. But, I admit to keeping secrets from him. I never told him just how complicated it is to shoot an arrow. I just let him have his fun pulling arrows untill he got on my case to let him shoot. Then let him practice as much as he wanted and give a little assistance as needed. Yep,it's rocket science alright.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Does instinctive shoot have limitations? - of course it does.
> 
> 
> 2. You are limitted to one set up - ie: - If you want to shoot well insintctively - you need to shoot one bow and arrow combination so that it can become an extention of your self. If you are shooting bows that shoot different speeds (different trajectory) every other time you shoot - your subconscious mind will have conflicting feedback and it will either take much longer to get accurate - or it will be impossible.
> ...


I think Sharp has hot a few nails on the head here ... 
As for the limiting yourself to one bow mentality ... Mr Hill and John Schulz would agree wholeheartedly .

I shoot "instinctively" most of the time and always when hunting . My target shooting i use a more defines gap method ... I love both , shoot pretty good instinctively and pretty crapola at target ... but there are lessons in form and function and they'll all make yo a better well rounded archer once you have explored those that interest you , deciding for yourself which is the best , most enjoyable and practical for each individual


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> I think Sharp has hot a few nails on the head here ...
> As for the limiting yourself to one bow mentality ... Mr Hill and John Schulz would agree wholeheartedly .
> 
> I shoot "instinctively" most of the time and always when hunting . My target shooting i use a more defines gap method ... I love both , shoot pretty good instinctively and pretty crapola at target ... but there are lessons in form and function and they'll all make yo a better well rounded archer once you have explored those that interest you , deciding for yourself which is the best , most enjoyable and practical for each individual


Do you practice your instinctive shooting? How about your gap shooting? What does the practice do for you? What do you think you gain from the practice that helps you instinctively hunting, for example, or roving?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

why does rattus keep asking these silly questions? - oh - i know - he has now come full circle and wants to go back to the definition phase of this discussion and try to claim that instinct means only something that is inborn...it never ends.

On the outside chance that there is someone out there who really wants an answer to that question - I will give it.

Instinctive shooting is shooting or rather aiming - at a subconscious level - we all have a natural inborn ability to do this on some level - it is hand-eye coordination. Practice helps us hone the instincts that we have. When we throw a ball we don't have sights or any aiming references - yet if we practice - or rather the more we do it the better we get. The more an animal hunts the better it gets at it, but it still hunts by instinct.

When we run we run by instinct - we run at a level below our conscious level of thinking - we run at a subconscious level - but the more we run the faster and better we get at it.

The more we shoot a bow the more consistent our form gets and the better we shoot. The more we shoot the better we get. The best practice for an instinctive shooter is to shoot all sorts of different distances.

Dr. Jay Kidwell believes that the subconscious brain picks up on the trajectory of the arrow in the peripheral vision and that is the primary way that the brain learns how to get the arrow were we want it at various distances - I suspect that there is at least some truth to this in that this could be the only way that we figure out how to throw a ball at various distances - since there is no gap or reference to aim a ball.

How it works specifically I don't know - and I certainly would not claim to know based on some evolutionary biologists theories on the brain, and I really don't care about all the details - I know it works - I know that I can just look at a spot and shoot and be as accurate as the guy that gap shoots - many times more accurate.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> why does rattus keep asking these silly questions? - oh - i know - he has now come full circle and wants to go back to the definition phase of this discussion and try to claim that instinct means only something that is inborn...it never ends.
> 
> On the outside chance that there is someone out there who really wants an answer to that question - I will give it.
> 
> ...


First off sharp, you're going to have to come up with ANY COMMENT OF MINE that suggests anything you allege of me. Secondly, I agree with you... you don't know how it works.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

If instinctive is a bad word to describe someone that shoots wih out gapping or gun barreling an arrow what would you folks have it called 

I canT argue that I know the arrow is right in front of my face but I do not now the gap needEd to hit the target I just focus on a spot and keep pulling to the shot breaks


Would everyone be happy if we called it subliminal gap shooting


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Do you practice your instinctive shooting? How about your gap shooting? What does the practice do for you? What do you think you gain from the practice that helps you instinctively hunting, for example, or roving?


Rattus, 
I practice my shooting in all sorts of ways , 3d's, targets and lottsa bale work .... but mainly I rove , stump and clout ....

But shooting "target " , [using both sights and gapping ]as such can provide a feed back in terms of form, back tensions and release etc , that I may not get whilst roving , stumping etc . 
Much the same as shooting " target" can't give me the same feedback I need for a canted shot from my knees downhill at 25 yards can ......

YMMV


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Something is now not making sense regarding Sharp’s statement: 



> _Does instinctive shoot have limitations? - of course it does. .....You are limited to one set up - ie: - If you want to shoot well instinctively - you need to shoot one bow and arrow combination so that it can become an extension of yourself. If you are shooting bows that shoot different speeds (different trajectory) every other time you shoot - your subconscious mind will have conflicting feedback and it will either take much longer to get accurate - or it will be impossible. _


Read the statement several times; as you do, think about how this statement now runs counter to much of what Sharp has been claiming regarding instinctive shooting i_.e., no aiming, no concern of distance to target, leave everything else for the subconscious mind to calculate, etc._

I won’t yet indicate what bell rung when I read his statement, but it rang loudly regarding all or much of what Sharp has been claiming…and not just on this site…about how he shoots instinctively and how others should also do, and all his claims about “just pick a spot and let your subconscious take care of everything else.” I want to see if anyone else caught or will catch the inconsistencies. 

*Hint:* You need to shoot one bow and arrow combination so that it can become an extension of yourself. *If you are shooting bows that shoot different speeds (different trajectory) every other time you shoot* - your subconscious mind will have conflicting feedback and it will either take much longer to get accurate vs. using several bows with differing setups speed, trajectory, and so on.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

When I switch bows all are relatively close in speed and arrow weight it takes me a while to adjust 

I just walk around and shoot at different distances 

I will admit the longer I shoot one bow the better I shoot


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jparanee - of course you would shoot one bow better the longer you shoot it.

Our brain needs feedback - whether it is our conscious brain or our subconscious brain - it needs feedback. If you shoot multiple bows the feedback is different with each shot and the subconscious will never be able to do it's job and get the arrow where it goes.

Our subconscious mind learns - just in a different manner than our conscious - or at least in a manner that we are not aware of. It cannot learn if the rules change each time you shoot. This is why a shooter with inconsistent form cannot shoot accurately - the feedback is different from shot to shot.

It would be like each time you walk you had different length legs - wouldn't you be tripping all the time? But since your legs are consistent and always the same length - you can walk at a subconscious level. How about reaching for a glass - how would that work if each time you did your arm was a different length? 

How about steps - if one day someone made the steps you climb everyday have a different height - you would likely trip. Yet when the feedback is the same - you can run up the steps without giving a single conscious thought to the placement of your feet - you would run up those steps at a subconscious level.

and before the yahoo's start going on and on about it not being instinctive if it is learned - you need to go back to the dictionary and understand that the word instinct has more than one meaning:

http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmedsamp

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level 

note the 2nd definition


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> Rattus,
> I practice my shooting in all sorts of ways , 3d's, targets and lottsa bale work .... but mainly I rove , stump and clout ....
> 
> But shooting "target " , [using both sights and gapping ]as such can provide a feed back in terms of form, back tensions and release etc , that I may not get whilst roving , stumping etc .
> ...


I rove too... I've come to certain realizations about shooting. Feedback... yes.. that is why I shoot... for feedback. and for in my opinion, to imprint.. that's my version anyways... and scenarios presented by roving or hunting have a "familiar imprint" that I draw from for my next shot. I use a method of shooting wherein I draw to my anchor point, and in the process look down my arrow to my target or animal and voila... It's not gap, but I'm certain that it's a version based upon sight picture and distances.

So, do you feel that you're learning/imprinting/storing when you practice? Or is it ONLY feedback in terms of form, back tensions and release etc ?

Aloha... :beer:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I suppose that i seperate practice into two groups ... one is hunting "practice " which is stumping , roving etc and the other is more "training" . To be honest my renewed interest in shooting spots only came about because I moved back to the city and my roving grounds are an hr away .....

I think through "training " I have learnt to 'trust' myself more . Standing flat footed , shooting arrows at a small circle indoors , ditto bale work has reinforced for me a confidence is not only how I shoot and physical the mechanics but when I mental aspects of when to shoot ... I know when and where i have gone wrong and also when i have done well .
On critters I suppose I just "bore a whole " in the spot as they say ... but i am getting better at learing to actually trust that my "subconscious" or what ever you want to call it , will get my bowhand, anchor follow through as is should be . And thats kinda the feed back I have started to get , if that makes any sense ???

So , to answer , without sounding wishy washy ... the feed back is all of those things you described ... but the feed back is also all those elements in unison ... as a whole shot .... start to finish .


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Dr. Jay Kidwell believes that the subconscious brain picks up on the trajectory of the arrow in the peripheral vision


And why not at anchor, arrow and overall sight picture as well????

You complain about Gap shooters hijacking, firstly it's an open/public forum and secondly many of these Gap shooters started out shooting Instinctively, are you saying if you dont shoot Instinct anymore you suddenly lost all understanding of it or you've lost you rights to make comment on the subject being a traitor to Instinct lol

You obviously consider yourself the best qualified on this subject (No 5 in world) and nobody elses opinion is required.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

:deadhorse


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

steve - if you are going to quote - me please quote all of it - I said I don't know for sure how it works - I am certain that the overal sight picture plays a part - the difference between the instinctive and gap shooters is that the instinctive shooter does no aiming at a conscious level - none - it is all done at a subconscious level.

The guys that are in here making statements like "the sight picture is the same at any distance out to 25 yards" - obviously are dead wrong - as I have proven that this is a false idea.

If you understood that instinctive meant aiming at a subconscious level - you would not care whether it is the trajectory or the sight picture that is used by the subconscious - it is irreleveant to whether one is aiming at a subconscious level - and the very fact that you try to make some distinction in this tells me that you do not understand what instinctive aiming is.

I consider myself the best qualified on the subject of how I shoot - I know how I shoot and have no need of you, grant, or anyone else to inform me of how I aim. 

After shooting this way for decades, reading many books on archery, speaking and shooting with many excellent shots, both instinctive and otherwise, and being able to shoot with the best 3D shooters in the world - I think that I am qualified to speak on the issue and I make no apology for this.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I am certain that the overal sight picture plays a part -


I agree



sharpbroadhead said:


> The guys that are in here making statements like "the sight picture is the same at any distance out to 25 yards" - obviously are dead wrong - as I have proven that this is a false idea.


Please read a previous post I wrote on this, you are assuming the Gap is an exact measurement like a sight pin, this isn't the case.



sharpbroadhead said:


> I think that I am qualified to speak on the issue and I make no apology for this


I agree you are but so are many other members on this forum, some happen to also be gap shooters.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

When I hear or read the term World Championship(s) and World Champion I am always suspect what either term/title actually represents.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1619923&page=2


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Instinctive shooting is shooting or rather aiming - at a subconscious level "...Could someone please explain to me how looking down the arrow, (as the pic Ken posted clearly shows)....Can meet this definition?

I do shoot instinctive, and I have to say that it's quite annoying to see someone explain instinctive and pose as an instinctive shooter, that is clearly not.......

Ken, We aren't freakin blind...we can see your eye looking down the arrow!... not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but hey let's be honest here..........my god man how stupid do you think we are?.....


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

are you kidding me? Voodoofire's post shows that he is either attempting to bait me or that he is calling me a liar because I shoot well (because the arrow is no different in relation to my eye than the way the "master" of instinctive himself - G Fred has his arrow in relation to his eye)- either way it is sad. 

Steve - you keep posting this comment about gap shooting and the sight picture - I don't care about gap shooting - that has nothing to do with it - what grant said was that the INSTINCTIVE shooter shoots the exact same sight picture for every shot at distances of 25 yards or less - and that is simply not possible. The sight picture has to be different for a 10 yard shoot and a 25 yard shot - if it was the exact same - the arrow would drop by 15 inches if the same sight picture was used for a 10 yard shot on a 25 yard shot.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

What?... it's sad to be honest now?........I didn't call you anything... the pics did a fine job of that on their own......YOU posted the pics...........and G.Fred isn't on here telling us how to do it.....or explaining it.... you are...and if he was, after that pic, I'd be on him too..........looking down the arrow is as instictive as looking down a gun barrel after thousands of shots........no matter how many times you do it it still isn't instictive........and I don't need bait all I need is common sense.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

My lands to mergatroid..........all I wanted was a "yes" or "no"!


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Ok...."yes" or "no"..............seriously, I pick a spot, not the whole spot mind you, just a speck of it, sometimes I hit it sometimes I don't, but when I think about the shot, or the people around or chicken noodle soup, it's about a guarantee I'll miss it. point is that if anything enters my mind, my arrow won't hit the speck.......that's why I tried gap shooting, figured it would be easier, and for some it is, but I've been instictive for far too long, and it just didn't work out.....Gap seemed too un-natural.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Steve - you keep posting this comment about gap shooting and the sight picture - I don't care about gap shooting - that has nothing to do with it - what grant said was that the INSTINCTIVE shooter shoots the exact same sight picture for every shot at distances of 25 yards or less - and that is simply not possible. The sight picture has to be different for a 10 yard shoot and a 25 yard shot - if it was the exact same - the arrow would drop by 15 inches if the same sight picture was used for a 10 yard shot on a 25 yard shot.


Wait a min, if your changing your sight picture for different shots how the hell can that be subconscious aiming as you've been beating us over the head with in all your posts, if you're aware of a changing sight picture (even if you realise it's wrong sight picture while aiming) at different distances it has to be conscious aiming and not subconscious aiming or anything close to true instinctive shooting.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

regarding voodoofire - I am not even going to address the nonsense of this "looking down the arrow thing" any more - if some guys want to call me, Fred Asbell, Rick Welch and numerous other instinctive archers liars - fine - let them call us liars.

Steve - again - you are missing the point - and it is a VERY simple point - the sight picture as GRANT called it obviously changes from shot to shot - GRANT used the phrase "sight picture" - not me - I merely demonstrated that it was wrong.

Of course the position of the bow changes from shot to shot - if a target is further away - the bow has to be held higher - that is common sense - but GRANT claimed this was not necessary at 25 yards or less - which I clearly showed to be false.

I do not consciously do anything different if the shot is 10 yards or 40 yards - OBVIOUSLY, however - the bow is being held differently for different distances - the difference between an instinctive shooter and a shooter who aims at a conscious level is that I do not think about it or do anything at a conscious level.

Steve - you are making my case regarding the fact that you do not comprehend what instinctive shooting is. Once again - IT IS AIMING THE BOW AT A SUBCONSCIOUS LEVEL. 

The instinctive shooter aims his bow - just differently than the conscious aimer.

If you have a the same weight bow as me and draw the same and shoot the same weight arrows and we both shoot 40 yards - you will use your 40 yard pin to tell you at what angle to hold the bow to the target - you will have to consciously determine that the shot is 40 yards and consciously hold the bow at the angle that the pin you consciously set dictates. You will hold your bow at the same angle to the target as me, an instinctive shooter - the difference is that you determined how to hold it at a conscious level.

When I shoot a 40 yard shot - I look at the spot I want to hit and sort of visualize the shot and then, while looking at the spot, I draw the bow, anchor, and then remind myself to keep looking at the spot until after the arrow hits and then bam - the release happens. Never in that process do I think about distance, what angle to hold the bow, look down the arrow, look at a gap, nothing - I do what I said and nothing more - and the subconscious does the aiming.

Does my subconscious brain use the "sight picture" - I would think so via my peripheral vision, does it use the arc of the arrow, I would think so after "seeing" the arc of the arrow from thousands of shots in my peripheral vision, does my subconscious use the "gap" - I imagine it does since it is part of the "sight picture" - but it is all done at a subconscious level - I do not do any of this at a conscious level.

I truly and honestly fail to understand why this is soooooooooo difficult for some to grasp - it is part of our human experience - our subconscious mind does so many things in our daily life - yet some people fail to understand that it can happen in archery.

When you "aim" a ball before you throw it - what do you aim with? What "sight picture" do you have? When your throw a wad of paper in the trash - how do you "aim" it? When you run up the steps do you consciously think about each step you take and where to place your feet? When you drive your car do you consciously think about every single movement of the steering wheel to keep the car in your lane?

All of these things are done at a subconscious level - they are "automatic" - and so is the aim - and pretty much the entire shot - when an instinctive shooter shoots.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I happen to agree with Grant, as my own experience my sight picture doesn't change (at a conscious level) below 40 yards, it doesn't mean its not being adjusted, just not on a conscious level, one of the reasons I can shoot marked Field and unmarked 3D to a good level. What I see is the same sight picture and not what actually happens, you said this is impossible, to me this says youre aware of changing your sight picture, so please make up your mind becase what you first wrote before doesn't really add up with your last post.

You keep telling me to stop talking about Gap, firstly this is a public forum and secondly I was using my Gap method to make comparisons to Instinctive aiming, its a logical thing to do when you understand just how similar they are. We are doing the exact same thing, using the same basic aiming skills just at differnt levels of consiousness, even to the point of putting all focus where you want arrow to hit with both aiming methods, so what is so wrong with mentioning Gap on an Instinctive topic? 

You have zero respect for other peoples opinion, nobody here is 100% correct with their opinions, not even you, I'm giving an opinion on my own experiences of shooting both Gap and Instinct over the last 26 years, they will obviously be quite different from yours as my shooting background is very different from yours. I am also a qualified coach and I teach all forms of aiming depending on the students needs/abilities, do you teach Gap if one of your students isn't suited to instinct?


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

:deadhorse

It's deja vu all over again ... and again ... and ...........


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

IAIS604 said:


> :deadhorse
> 
> It's deja vu all over again ... and again ... and ...........


It does get tiring after a while but heres the way I see it..........

If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Sharpy, I've been shooting almost 50 years, and been through hell and high water to keep doing it,and I don't know everything, but I know BS when I see it.......... and anyway how does the way G.Fred and Rick Welch shoot pertain to you? leave them and their shooting styles out of this as they aren't here to explain it for themselves, and I doubt you are qualified or have permission to speak for them....you posted the pic of you looking down the arrow,...the pic itself makes my case.....

Fellas, Rembrandt, sorry, but I can take only so much BS......sometimes you have to stand up, or you'll just get covered in it.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough? "

Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.

but there is really nothing truly instictive about it... we don't come out of the womb shooting bullseyes, it takes practice, and more practice and then even more and one day it will all come together and you just do it, no thought, no bow, no arrow, no release, it just happens.... kind of a learned instictive, if you will...


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

voodoofire1 said:


> "If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough? "
> 
> Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.


I agree..........its really a no-brainer and what makes an instinctive shooter a very good instinctive shooter is practice, practice and muscle memory.......


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

voodoofire1 said:


> Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.
> 
> but there is really nothing truly instictive about it... we don't come out of the womb shooting bullseyes, it takes practice, and more practice and then even more and one day it will all come together and you just do it, no thought, no bow, no arrow, no release, it just happens.... kind of a learned instictive, if you will...


Good post Voodoofire1, it *really* is that simple :thumbs_up


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> Wait a min, if your changing your sight picture for different shots how the hell can that be subconscious aiming as you've been beating us over the head with in all your posts, if you're aware of a changing sight picture (even if you realise it's wrong sight picture while aiming) at different distances it has to be conscious aiming and not subconscious aiming or anything close to true instinctive shooting.


Steve... don't take this for anything... it means nothing... and I'm tortured to again come to the aid of the allmighty... but I think what happens comes from the, to use my terms, *"imprint"* in that as I shoot at varying ranges, a certain sight picture is presented to/for each shot distance. You do this often enough your imprint mechanism compensates for you at different distances... now for me, I've never measured this... only if my arrows wind up in the bucket... so it seems to me that sight picture changes, but I've learned it for different distances "subconsciously", lets say... in that I'm not "gapping" (not that I understand that completely either...) consciously. So in that sense, I can see what sharp is saying... and how he in book form so as to not be too obvious about it, is saying that you all are correct.... :grin:


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## bailebr3 (Sep 21, 2010)

or you can just gap shoot! not have to worry if your having an "on" or "off" day i use to say that i shot instinctive and killed a few animals with the method.....but after rod jenkins teaching of form and aiming method i have killed alot more.....and im more confident taking those 25 to 30yrd shots. some people can get away with instinctive at distance but they have to practice alot more and use a decently fast bow.....i know this topic is rehashed over and over and over but maybe more trad. archers should start out by trying an aiming method.....i see so many thinking that its just a pull and pray game. go to a trad shoot and you will usually here arrows hitting trees everywhere


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> "If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough? "
> 
> Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.
> 
> but there is really nothing truly instictive about it... we don't come out of the womb shooting bullseyes, it takes practice, and more practice and then even more and one day it will all come together and you just do it, no thought, no bow, no arrow, no release, it just happens.... kind of a learned instictive, if you will...


 This has been my impression. That we learn through repetition and practice. :grin:

Aloha.. :beer:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I am not even going to address the nonsense of this "looking down the arrow thing" any more - if some guys want to call me, Fred Asbell, Rick Welch and numerous other instinctive archers liars - fine - let them call us liars.


I agree. You really don't need to address 'looking down the arrow' because it's obvious in your picture that you are *NOT Gunbarreling*...at least to the extent that the arrow is DIRECTLY under your eye...BUT...you do need to address using the arrow tip like a pin sight within your line of vision.

I'm pretty sure I have read comments where you believe an archer can use a pin sight Instinctively...and that statement...whether you made it or not....is far from the truth....when an archer places their pin sight directly on the target within their direct line of focus to the target.

An archer does *NOT* have to conscoiusly use an aiming reference when it's in their *periphial vision*....but the closer that aiming reference gets within the archer's direct line of sight to the target...the harder it becomes to consciously ignore it. 

When you place your arrow tip on an object that you are consciously focusing on...you have to be consciously aware of it as it enters your direct line of sight. There is *NO WAY *to get around that...and based on this picture of you and the videos you have posted...your POD is within the typical range you shoot 3D targets within while competeting.

It becomes pretty ridiculous when you keep denying that you don't use the arrow consciously to aim at all when your picture is worth a 1000 words.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The circle never ends - for those who think that instinct only means something we are born with - then you are all gay - because gay only means happy. If you think that instinct only means an ability that we are born with then bow only means something a knot that you tie. If you think instinctie only means an ability that we are born with than light only means that an object is not heavy, etc...

For those of us who understand that words can have more than one meaning - we know that instinct can mean actions that are mediated below the conscious level.

Regarding the experts who keep up with this arrow under the eye stuff - we all know that G. Fred Asbel and Rick Welch are isntinctive shooters - I seem to remember G. Fred Asbel writing a book about it.

Here is the pic again of me shooting and the cover of one of G. Fred's books - the subject matter escapes my memory - oh yea - that's right - INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING. You will note that there is no difference at all in the relationship of the arrow to my eye than in the relationship of the arrow to Fred's eye.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Geee... Instinct now is learned behavior... imagine dat.... :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Kassai one of the modern Instinctive greats, no doubts where his eyes are looking.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1330224
> 
> 
> Kassai one of the modern Instinctive greats, no doubts where his eyes are looking.


BAM!...just wish I could've been there to see the look on his face when the trap door came slamming down...LOL


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hmm oddly enough - his eyes are looking exactly where the arrow is pointing - strange how that works


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1330224
> 
> 
> Kassai one of the modern Instinctive greats, no doubts where his eyes are looking.


Yep, kinda hard to barrel-sight down that shaft like the archers in the previous example pics are shown.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> hmm oddly enough - his eyes are looking exactly where the arrow is pointing - strange how that works


No his eyes are looking were he wants his arrow will end up in the target, if he was looking where the arrow is pointing with that low anchor he would shoot high, you can do that if you set your bow for IBO ranges and put the arrow under or very close to your eye.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Yep - G. Fred Asbell is now a "barrel-sight down the shaft" shooter according to these experts.

As much as I disagree with the form that Asbell recommends - never in a million years would I call him a liar and claim that he is not actually aiming the way he says in all of his books, magazine articles, at his clinics, and how he told me face to face that he aims. 

But these clowns have the nerve to come on here and claim that he is a "barrel-sight down the shaft" shooter - even though he, like myself have explained numerous times that we focus on one thing and one think only - the spot we want to hit.

My guess is that old voodoofire - does not anchor like Kassai - so even though he also claims to shoot instinctive - it is not possible unless the arrow is, what - 8-12 inches from the eye - is that the deterimining factor for these guys? If the arrow is closer than 8" to the eye - then you are not instinctive? But - wait - his eyes are still looking where the arrow is pointed - so it can't be instinctive - only if his eyes are closed or he is looking the other way can it be instinctive.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1330224
> 
> 
> Kassai one of the modern Instinctive greats, no doubts where his eyes are looking.


Now, thats what I call INSTINCTIVE shooting............


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> *No his eyes are looking were he wants his arrow will end up in the target*, if he was looking where the arrow is pointing with that low anchor he would shoot high, you can do that if you set your bow for IBO ranges and put the arrow under or very close to your eye.


You beat me to it.... :grin: I'm reminded of young kids with BB guns and those guys on the Outdoor channel doing them impossible shots... often times through a process of elimination come to the impossible shot... in my opinion... learned behavior... :grin:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

It's all just sight picture refinement. The closer to you aggregate all available sighting appurtenances to your line of sight, the more refined your aim - to the point of even adding some more, say, a sight. In the context of "instinctual", whatever we want to really call it, I would assign that term more for folks who shoot with more stuff "away" from their line of sight - or those with less attention to getting everything lined up "directly" under or "in" their line of sight.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm not calling anybody a liar nor have I at any point, I'm just pointing out that the closer the arrow is to they eye the easier it is to line everything up, either consciously or subconsciously, and some will obviously doubt your aiming with this modern IBO shooting style.

Kassai's method is the purest form of instinctive archery shooting and historically correct as is the floating anchor he uses, you cannot anchor on your face whle at full gallop.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

" You will note that there is no difference at all in the relationship of the arrow to my eye than in the relationship of the arrow to Fred's eye"
Sharpy, G.Fred is leaning over in such a way as to place his eye directly over the arrow...... you on the other hand are not and have it about the 4:30 position in relationship to your eye..........that sure looks different to me......


And Sharpy ,calling someone a liar would involve knowing what that person meant by instictive........ if they are instictively looking down their arrow....... then it's instictive to them.........now nothing against G. Fred, I'm sure he's a fine shot, but he doesn't shoot my bow or my arrows....I found my own way long ago, and not saying it's better or worse, but it makes ME happy and I have fun doing it....... now isn't that the first rule of archery....To have fun.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

voodoofire1 said:


> "If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough? "
> 
> Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.
> 
> but there is really nothing truly instictive about it... we don't come out of the womb shooting bullseyes, it takes practice, and more practice and then even more and one day it will all come together and you just do it, no thought, no bow, no arrow, no release, it just happens.... kind of a learned instictive, if you will...





steve morley said:


> Good post Voodoofire1, it *really* is that simple :thumbs_up


Well said. I would add _deceptively_ simple. It really is a beautiful thing when it comes together. As someone who still struggles to consistently get it together I have the utmost respect for those that can.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> "If you made the bow and the arrow and the window invisable and all you had was the target before you, that is "instinctive shooting". Everything else is a form of spot shooting to some degree if you exclude sights.........Is that simple enough? "
> 
> Sure enough is, and that's how it works too, the mind excludes everything but the speck of a spot.........pure simplicity at it's finest.
> 
> but there is really nothing truly instictive about it... we don't come out of the womb shooting bullseyes, it takes practice, and more practice and then even more and one day it will all come together and you just do it, no thought, no bow, no arrow, no release, it just happens.... kind of a learned instictive, if you will...


You know what this is called Voodoo...

Occam's Razor..the simplest answer...is usually the correct one..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> " You will note that there is no difference at all in the relationship of the arrow to my eye than in the relationship of the arrow to Fred's eye"
> Sharpy, G.Fred is leaning over in such a way as to place his eye directly over the arrow...... you on the other hand are not and have it about the 4:30 position in relationship to your eye..........that sure looks different to me......


That's because according to Ken...no one can shoot like Fred is doing accurately...and since only Ken is shooting correctly...we all should shoot like him...Also...1 other reason... no one should wear a hat or shirt like that...because if you do...then you are showing Elitism..and that is a bad thing...:wink:

Mac


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Sorry, but I have to wear a hat or the solar panel for the sex machine will overcharge.............


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LMAO - now G Fred's style is "modern IBO style" - LMAO And now the way we lean or not lean has something to do with whether or not we are instinctive - LOL

This is soooooo silly


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp it's no suprise or shock that people bait you by saying maybe your lying about you aiming as you've just about called everybody on this thead who didn't agree with you either dumb or an idiot, what did you expect.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Hey I never said he was lying....... the pic he posted did...........looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... it's a duck... simple as that.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - voodoo told me he was losing his teeth because of the antler dust he sniffs all day making his bows - but I didn't think it was that bad!


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

There is always talent, it's the part of the equation that is never discussed. All things can be taught but talent will overcome them all.
Often talented people are the worst at explaining how they do things. Details don't enter into thier thought process because success comes eaisly to them. 

If you are going to teach somone of normal talent you will simply frustrate them if you use shortcuts that worked for you. So when somone asks what are you using for a sighting method and you can't think of one then it's best to send them to someone that can.
They can decide later if they need it or not.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Very funny sharpy, but what actually happened was that through smoking while I was working on some antler that was sent to me uncured..........I transferred a nasty bacteria to my mouth and it got into my jaw and ate some of the bone away......and they had to pull my teeth because of it, that was in November and I'm still being treated for it........


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

First off I have never shot any competition so I guess I am not qualified to even speak of this because I am not a world class shooter but I have been shooting a stick bow since I was about 5 I am now 43. 

I do not gap or at least if I am gapping I don't know it . I can shoot in the dark just fine even though I can't see my arrow. 

I can consistantly keep arrows in a kill zone out to 20 yds but I am not as consistant at longer ranges 

I have had great success with my hunting 

I think Sharp does shoot the way he says he does. He admits his mind is seeing the arrow tip in his peripheral vision just like I admit it but I also do not use the tip the way you guys are saying he does or at least I don't know if I do. 

If you all are saying that if you anchor on your face and the arrow is below your eye that you are a gap shooter than I guess I am a gap shooter but like Sharp I am using the term instinctive shot like it always has been used to describe a style of shooting bare bow with out a sight or a conscious aiming method. 

No one is denying that thru repetition your mind will learn a set sight picture but this has always been called instinctive shooting and I think that everyone if you will excuse me saying is just looking to argue with Sharp

I don't agree with everything he has to say but I understand him on this and I shoot the same just not as well 

In his pic I am shooting gap ? If I am it is unknown to me


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## eminart (Apr 2, 2012)

I can point my finger AND aim my finger and I can point it no matter where it is in relation to my eye.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

After reading everything and looking at the photos Sharp you need to get some sun on those legs, Steve needs a haircut and Voodoo needs dental help. Good luck guys I shoot Instinctive,Gap,point of aim and what ever takes to hit the middle
Gary


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Looks like about a 3/4" gap(lol)


JParanee said:


> First off I have never shot any competition so I guess I am not qualified to even speak of this because I am not a world class shooter but I have been shooting a stick bow since I was about 5 I am now 43.
> 
> I do not gap or at least if I am gapping I don't know it . I can shoot in the dark just fine even though I can't see my arrow.
> 
> ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL Jpar - there is no way for someone to tell from a photo what you consciously see or not - or how you aim - and it is absurd that there are even people trying to make this claim. It would be like looking at a picture of someone looking in a given direction and being able to say exactly what they are focused on consciously - it cannot be done.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Your killing me he's looking at me


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> First off I have never shot any competition so I guess I am not qualified to even speak of this because I am not a world class shooter but I have been shooting a stick bow since I was about 5 I am now 43.


You sure seem more than qualified to me!



JParanee said:


> I think Sharp does shoot the way he says he does. He admits his mind is seeing the arrow tip in his peripheral vision just like I admit it but I also do not use the tip the way you guys are saying he does or at least I don't know if I do.


If you shoot with the tip of your arrow on target for a specific distance (Point On Distance)...you NO LONGER can consciously ignore it.

Think about it....you're consciously focusing on only the target and than an object is placed directly between that target and your eye. If you are consciously focusing on the target...you will consciously know that there is something within your direct line of sight to the target. There is NO WAY you can consciously not acknowledge it if you're focusing on the target. It may be slightly blurred within your vision but you will be consciously aware of it.



JParanee said:


> If you all are saying that if you anchor on your face and the arrow is below your eye that you are a gap shooter than I guess I am a gap shooter


That's NOT what I'm saying...and I'm not even sure if anyone else is saying what sharp is claiming they are saying about the arrow being below the eye.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL Jpar - there is no way for someone to tell from a photo what you consciously see or not - or how you aim -


Sure you can. If the archer says they are looking at the target and the picture shows the dominant eye, the target and the arrow all in the same photo...all a person has to do is draw a line from the eye to the target to show the line of sight to the target while the archer is aiming. Whatever is within the archer's direct line of sight to the target HAS to be recognized conscoiusly.

If their was a target include in the same pic with Asbell...anyone would be able to do the same thing.



sharpbroadhead said:


> and it is absurd that there are even people trying to make this claim.


What's absurd...is your denial when the picture clearly shows your line of sight and what's in it!


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Those are billy bob teeth by buddies got me as a joke....man if I really had teeth like that my bowstring would have ripped em out long ago,lol.....

And anchoring below the eye wouldn't automatically make you a gap shooter, but it is easier to see, and kinda depends on the arrows position.....the closer it is the more chance there is they are either gapping or gun barreling.....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL Jpar - there is no way for someone to tell from a photo what you consciously see or not - or how you aim - and it is absurd that there are even people trying to make this claim. It would be like looking at a picture of someone looking in a given direction and being able to say exactly what they are focused on consciously - it cannot be done.


Then why did YOU post the pic of comparing yourself to G. Fred?..what point were you trying to convey?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Black wolf 

I don't use my tip to aim but I'm sure my mind does 

Voodoo 


Ya scared me for a second


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jinkster - the point I was trying to convey - is simple - almost noone questions the fact that G. Fred Asbell aims instinctively - the photo shows that there is no difference between the relationship of the arrow to my eye than there is to his - so if someone is going to make the absurd claim that I am not instinctively shooting because of where the arrow is in relation to my eye - they are going to have to make the same claim about G. Fred. This is so dumb that it is getting old - the claims that are being made are basically a way to say that nobody shoots instinctive and that those who say that they do not consciously use anything to aim are liars - and I for one am sick and tired of being called a liar.

All these guys can say what they want - I KNOW how I am - and yet these arrogant characters post this crap that is directly calling me a liar or stupid - but then I get accused of calling others liars, idiots and stupid - though I have not done that once - but hey - if the shoe fits....

I have had enough - I have explained as much as I possibly can what instinctive shooting is and how I do it - if someone is unwilling to take me at my word and thinks I am a liar there is nothing I can do about that, if someone does not have the capacity to understand what I am saying, there is not much I can do about that either, other than try to find a better way to explain it - but I am not smart enough for that - I have done the best I can. If someone is unwilling to understand it (dumb on purpose) there is nothing I can do about that either. 

Time to give this a rest - at least for me


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> Then why did YOU post the pic of comparing yourself to G. Fred?..what point were you trying to convey?


Cause he is clutching at straws to bolster his position...and if he can show his style is the same (which it is not and has already been pointed out by Voodoo ) to G.Fred's he might get some sympathy and someone to come to his rescue ...which is funny he would do this since he actually thinks his style of shooting is superior than G.Fred's ( he has stated that before) ....not to mention...(least you forget soo soon...) _how dare anyone here question what he has to say_...( which he has also said before..and to you )...so....that's why.. His last response is a typical response when you are dealing with a arrogant..conceded....hypocritical type person...because they can cast aspersions and then leave...simple as that...He's not done yet...wait and see...

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlemen?..I would just like to say at this point that despite the mental jousting and somehwat confrontational debate?..i'm gleening a lot from this thread..as it's not just stirring the pot?..it's really stirring the gray matter upstairs...and rather timely in maybe a coincidental way as just this past weekend i was dally'in around..and in my standard MO?..changing a lot of things back and forth still searching for that oh so magic form and tuning nock positions via bareshafting and listening to my bow and at one point?..just to "listen to my bows" and let them decide which they liked best?..split or 3-under?..i started alternating back and forth..and i admitedly claim to use it all..especially with my 54# Bob Lee curve cause i really can't hold that much weight (for more than a few shots) to even bother trying to gap shoot it and when i do it expends my strength so quickly?..i've just resorted to snap shooting it..and with both my bows?..my shot/aiming starts before the draw does..holding the bow out front shoulder rotated forward and i have a full view of the shaft in relation to the target..as i'm drawing?..i concentrate on a smooth powerful controlled draw all the while keeping the spot, point and nock-end of the arrow in alignment..somehwere's inbetween?..maybe more towards the end of the draw?....my focus comes off the arrow/target alignment (though it's still there) as i now start to see what i term.."The Big Picture"..(i.e. "the sight picture")..but as i hit anchor?..all that goes away and only the spot exists..and finish the shot instinctively..but what amazed me this past weekend?..was how i could switch back and forth from split too 3-under and still pull off the shot with reasonable accuracy..as i recall my first efforts at gapping many months ago?..the two different holds (split/3under) would cause a considerable difference in gap..if i switched back and forth back then?..3 under sent my first shots grossly low and switching too split would send them grossly high..but not anymore..and when i did question my instinctive tendencies back then?..i tried to go back to gap and it was a "no-go"..for some reason?..just couldn't do it..oh i could try as i might but..it was like the new found instinctive finish ruined me for gapping..and i'm kinda happy about that as shooting instinctive seems to be a lot less stressful..i still ain't great at it?..but at least i know which road i supposed to go down.

That said?..while i figure instinctive will be a feather in my cap for unknown 3D tournys? (which i find far more interesting and have way more fun at anyways)..i'll probably never be worth a dang at like indoor spots or field rounds...where the way i figure?..gapping skills would rule and instinctive would be vacuum hind breast. LOL! 

And That Said?..i just sent off my deposit today for the Rod Jenkins clinic i'm attending May 4-5th..and i think i'm gonna be needing like a 30sump'in# bow..cause i'm fairly certain he's gonna be teaching gap..but i figure it can't hurt to learn..or at least..taste it all!


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Cool, Rod's a heck of a fella, You'll learn a lot...PAY ATTENTION!..........and I saw yesterday where Byron Ferguson is putting on a shooting clinic for $1500 and the clinic with a chance to hunt with him for $2000.............


"If someone is unwilling to understand it (dumb on purpose) there is nothing I can do about that either."

Well that's funny, a few of us have that same problem too.....we feel your pain.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Black wolf
> 
> I don't use my tip to aim but I'm sure my mind does


You do know that your mind is a part of you and if your mind is using it to aim...than you are also using it to aim? :wink: I'm guessing with the smiley face you already know that...at least I hope so :wink:

I think what you're basically trying to say is that your not consciously aware if you're using the arrow tip to aim when you shoot most of your targets.

All I'm saying is that if you shoot at your POD and are placing you're arrow tip on the target within your direct line of vision...you will be consciously aware of using your arrow tip as an aiming reference.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> the photo shows that there is no difference between the relationship of the arrow to my eye than there is to his


That photo ABSOLUTELY shows a difference!



sharpbroadhead said:


> so if someone is going to make the absurd claim that I am not instinctively shooting because of where the arrow is in relation to my eye - they are going to have to make the same claim about G. Fred.


Nope. We would need to see a photo with both him and his target within the same picture to draw a line from his eye to the target to see if there is an aiming reference within that line.



sharpbroadhead said:


> This is so dumb that it is getting old -


It's only dumb to you because you've convinced yourself into believing you aim TOTALLY Instinctively when you do NOT have a full grasp of what it really means to aim TOTALLY Instinctively...as the word applies to an aiming technique.

It's really NOT any different when someone claims to be aiming Split Vision when there NOT placing their arrow tip on a secondary aiming reference..while also focusing on the target.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> Cool, Rod's a heck of a fella, You'll learn a lot...PAY ATTENTION!..........and I saw yesterday where Byron Ferguson is putting on a shooting clinic for $1500 and the clinic with a chance to hunt with him for $2000.............
> 
> 
> "If someone is unwilling to understand it (dumb on purpose) there is nothing I can do about that either."
> ...


Oh i'll be there bow in one hand notebook in the other..and uh?..$1,500 for BF?..

not even if it included being a guest on his show..no doubt about it....the guys an amazing shot but...what he's got?..

can't be taught.

and "that's" been proven.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

voodoofire1 said:


> Cool, Rod's a heck of a fella, You'll learn a lot...PAY ATTENTION!..........and I saw yesterday where _*Byron Ferguson is putting on a shooting clinic for $1500*_ and the clinic with a chance to hunt with him for $2000.............
> 
> 
> "If someone is unwilling to understand it (dumb on purpose) there is nothing I can do about that either."
> ...


$1500.00....that must include a $1000.00 bow.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Think about it....you're consciously focusing on only the target and than an object is placed directly between that target and your eye. If you are consciously focusing on the target...you will consciously know that there is something within your direct line of sight to the target. There is NO WAY you can consciously not acknowledge it if you're focusing on the target. It may be slightly blurred within your vision but you will be consciously aware of it.





Please forgive me, I do not understand how this works, I am sure I am miss reading the meaning of this comment.....But there has been many times while focusing on a patch of hair on a deers chest, than I've never consciously never saw a twig between me & that patch of hair, the only time I saw it was have my arrow deflected.
I'am not trying to start anything, I have no horse in this race, so to say. I'am just confused alittle, (normal for me I guess). After almost 40 years of bow hunting I think I know less now then when I started. LOL


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

It isn't instinctive if your using EFOC arrows with Rage broadheads


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Wayko said:


> Please forgive me, I do not understand how this works, I am sure I am miss reading the meaning of this comment.....But there has been many times while focusing on a patch of hair on a deers chest, than I've never consciously never saw a twig between me & that patch of hair, the only time I saw it was have my arrow deflected.
> I'am not trying to start anything, I have no horse in this race, so to say. I'am just confused alittle, (normal for me I guess). After almost 40 years of bow hunting I think I know less now then when I started. LOL


No problem. I want people to ask questions. This is how we begin to understand one another.

The line we make to our target with our eyes is like a lazer beam that has no curve to it...unlike the line an arrow makes along it's trajectory to the target...so the twig may have been above your direct line of sight...or the twig may have blended in perfectly with the deer's body and you in fact never did see it.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I know one thing, if I could get a 30yd PO like Sharp with some decently fast arrows I'd be able to dominate at NFAA Trad 3D. As it is with 9GPP and full-length shafts I've still got a 45yd PO due to my tall face.
Of course I shoot pretty much the exact same sight picture just like Steve for everything under 30yds, I guess that makes me an instinctive master?

If someone was truely shooting without reference to their arrow tip then they would use the most biometrically efficient anchor position, not a high one which reduces the PO distance.

I shot a 3D a couple of weeks past stringwalking, I shot every target over 15yds and under 30yds with basically the same crawl. According to Sharp they should have been misses, kinda funny when I look at the scorecard and don't see anything but 8s, 10s and 11s.

-Grant


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## Okie1bow (Jul 26, 2006)

Hunting and 3D pure instinctive with my BW 1200 TD/HB. @ 48 #'S AT 28" draw. No sight, no flipper rest, no clicker, just limb savers. Great fun!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> I know one thing, if I could get a 30yd PO like Sharp with some decently fast arrows I'd be able to dominate at NFAA Trad 3D.


Which is the exact reason why many barebow archers try to get their POD at 20yrds. for NFAA 300 round type competitions.

It makes the aiming process just that much easier the closer an archer's aiming reference is within the archer's direct line of sight to the target.

It's like using your 20yrds. pin for 20yrds. instead of using your 60yrds. pin for 20yrds.



grantmac said:


> Of course I shoot *pretty much *the exact same sight picture just like Steve for everything under 30yds, I guess that makes me an instinctive master?


*'Pretty Much' *does indicate...*'NOT EXACTLY' *the same sight picture...which I can understand IF you're shooting a very fast arrow. It's not much different than how many compound shooters have just one pin for 5yrds. to 20yrds.

The problem occurs when an archer is shooting a slow arrow...which can show a much more different sight picture from 5yrds. to 20yrds.

Ray :shade:


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## BowHunter6666 (Dec 28, 2005)

To answer the original post I shoot instinctive. I focus on the target throughout the draw anchor and until the arrow hits. Ive never used my arrow as reference my subconsious is better at lining up the shot then my consious mind. My consious is on pushing and pulling.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You do know that your mind is a part of you and if your mind is using it to aim...than you are also using it to aim? :wink: I'm guessing with the smiley face you already know that...at least I hope so :wink:
> 
> I think what you're basically trying to say is that your not consciously aware if you're using the arrow tip to aim when you shoot most of your targets.
> 
> ...


I'm so confused 

I think you know my meaning 

Of course I'm seeing the arrow it's right in front of my face but I am not consciously (if that makes sense  ) using the arrow as a sighing device. 

But I do see what you all mean. That if I had my bow in my hand and you asked me to shoot something at 20 yds I would hold my bow up and right before I released the arrow my bow hand would be pointing my bow at the target at the right height so someone set the gap. I just don't remember doing it  

If I consciously try to gap shoot I am lost


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> But I do see what you all mean. That if I had my bow in my hand and you asked me to shoot something at 20 yds I would hold my bow up and right before I released the arrow my bow hand would be pointing my bow at the target at the right height so someone set the gap. I just don't remember doing it


That's not quite what I'm trying to share with you.

It depends on what your Point On Distance (POD) is.

An arrow in an archer's periphial vision...which is NOT in the archer's direct line of sight...can be used without the archer consciously being aware of it.

It's when the arrow tip is used just like a pin sight and is placed directly on the target within the archer's DIRECT line of sight to the target that it can NOT be consciously ignored.

Ray :shade:


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> is this a trick question ??? you ask for point of aim which means using arrow or bow as a reference so I guess this is not a question for a purist instinctive shooter right....?????? or am I reading the question wrong


No, WindWalker said POI (point of impact, not aim). With me it's a little voodoo science. If low and left I may have not put my whole back into it so I try harder next time. If high I watch that my anchor hasn't dropped or my string forearm hasn't dropped. Right and left problems are usually poor releases. Most of these things crop up for me when I start to get a little tired during long days of shooting 3-D.

Also I don't use a clicker but in addition to being a drawcheck they can be used as a release trigger. Your mind says "Release" when you hear the click.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That's not quite what I'm trying to share with you.
> 
> It depends on what your Point On Distance (POD) is.
> 
> ...


Ray I don't know my point of aim and I never really tried to figure it out. I think I know what you guys are trying to say


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I get accused of calling others liars, idiots and stupid - though I have not done that once - but hey - if the shoe fits....





sharpbroadhead said:


> There is another totally ignorant statement by someone who knows nothing about shooting instinctive





sharpbroadhead said:


> the arrogant ones are the onse who do not shoot instinctive and know nothing about it





sharpbroadhead said:


> These comments by people who think they know - are freakin' laughable - they have no clue and should not even be speaking on a method of shooting that they do not do and obviously know nothing about





sharpbroadhead said:


> pretending to be experts on the human brain and using a bunch of mumbo jumbo "science"






sharpbroadhead said:


> why does rattus keep asking these silly questions? - oh - i know - he has now come full circle and wants to go back to the definition phase of this discussion and try to claim that instinct means only something that is inborn...it never ends.


Now is it just me or does anybody else get the impression Ken is calling everybody stupid?




sharpbroadhead said:


> since I do shoot instinctively - and I would also be willing to bet that I shoot more accurately than most of those making these comments - you bet I think i know a little more about instinctive shooting than they do


This is your problem Sharp you believe nobody on this forum is better than you, so were all stupid/ignorant and have no right to post here, people bait you because you keep offending them in an indirect and very subtle way in just about every thread you post on. As I've said many times you seem to have zero respect for anybody elses opinion.

You dont have to agree with everything, just respect it's a different point of view to yours.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Ray I don't know my *point of aim *and I never really tried to figure it out. I think I know what you guys are trying to say


Point of Aim...is an aiming technique. 

Point On Distance (POD)...which is what I'm talking about...is the distance an archer has to elevate their bow arm that places the arrow's tip on the bullseye or on the same horizontal plane for a specific distance.

If you haven't figured it out...you most likely haven't shot far enough.

You might have a POD of 70yrds. and not know it because you just shoot at typical hunting distances.

For any archer to find their POD...they need to keep shooting longer distances until they can see their arrow's tip on the target or in the same horizontal plane as the target while at full draw.

Based on the picture sharp has posted of himself competeting...sharp has a POD of about 25 or 30yrds.

Does that help explain it better?

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Point of Aim...is an aiming technique.
> 
> Point On Distance (POD)...which is what I'm talking about...is the distance an archer has to elevate their bow arm that places the arrow's tip on the bullseye for a specific distance.
> 
> ...


So a point on distance must have to have the point lowered from the target as you get closer and closer... ? That's like my muzzleloader bein zeroed at 200 yards... I'm aiming at hooves at 25... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> So a point on distance must have to have the point lowered from the target as you get closer and closer... ?


Exactly!

Generally speaking....any target closer than an archer's POD will have the arrow tip somewhere below the target within the archer's sight picture while they are aiming...which will place the arrow within the archer's periphial vision and NOT within the archer's direct line of sight to the target.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Generally speaking....any target closer than an archer's POD will have the arrow tip somewhere below the target within the archer's sight picture while they are aiming...which will place the arrow within the archer's periphial vision and NOT within the archer's direct line of sight to the target.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Interesting... and this is the generalized substance of gap shooting?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Interesting... and this is the generalized substance of gap shooting?


If I understand your question correctly...Yes.

Gaps will exist between the arrow tip and the target when the target's distance is closer than the archer's POD.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> So a point on distance must have to have the point lowered from the target as you get closer and closer... ? That's like my muzzleloader bein zeroed at 200 yards... I'm aiming at hooves at 25... :grin:



I believe that about sums it up there RAT.

It seems that some of the people (who so obviously don't have a clue what they are talking about) trying so hard to explain something they clearly don't understand, aSSume that everyone has a long enough arrow that intersects with their line of sight at maybe 25yds or something like that. I have tested this idea before and my arrow tip seems to be on the target at 90-100 yds. I don't remember now but at the time I checked it with a rangefinder. I just don't see any way under the sun to use it as a sight unless I aim it at the ground somewhere in front of what I want to hit.

Must be trick shooting!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If I understand your question correctly...Yes.
> 
> Gaps will exist between the arrow tip and the target when the target's distance is closer than the archer's POD.
> 
> Ray :shade:


See... I'm learnin.... :grin: Someday even I'll figger out what it is I actually do... :grin: thanks... Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I believe that about sums it up there RAT.
> 
> It seems that some of the people (who so obviously don't have a clue what they are talking about) trying so hard to explain something they clearly don't understand, aSSume that everyone has a long enough arrow that intersects with their line of sight at maybe 25yds or something like that. I have tested this idea before and my arrow tip seems to be on the target at 90-100 yds. I don't remember now but at the time I checked it with a rangefinder. I just don't see any way under the sun to use it as a sight unless I aim it at the ground somewhere in front of what I want to hit.
> 
> Must be trick shooting!


Hahaha... Yup... knew there had to be a trick to it somewhere.. :grin:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jinkster - the point I was trying to convey - is simple - almost noone questions the fact that G. Fred Asbell aims instinctively - the photo shows that there is no difference between the relationship of the arrow to my eye than there is to his - so if someone is going to make the absurd claim that I am not instinctively shooting because of where the arrow is in relation to my eye - they are going to have to make the same claim about G. Fred. This is so dumb that it is getting old - the claims that are being made are basically a way to say that nobody shoots instinctive and that those who say that they do not consciously use anything to aim are liars - and I for one am sick and tired of being called a liar.
> 
> All these guys can say what they want - I KNOW how I am - and yet these arrogant characters post this crap that is directly calling me a liar or stupid - but then I get accused of calling others liars, idiots and stupid - though I have not done that once - but hey - if the shoe fits....
> 
> ...



The same thing always happens in these threads. Someone who understands how to shoot an arrow without using any kind of sight attempts to help others to understand it.
Then the wise ones who know everything about everything come crawling out of the woodwork. They argue for days about something they obviously don't understand and really believe that they are right.
It's really very sad that there are so many extremely intelligent people who cannot manage to figure out how to perform such a simple function as flingin an arrow. Probably just too simple for those complex brains to wrap around.

The worst part is that we cannot possibly help them on the forum,in person, or any other way. The refusal to accept the facts prevents some people from learning. Very sad. Makes me wonder how they would look trying to fall off a log.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> aSSume that everyone has a long enough arrow that intersects with their line of sight at maybe 25yds or something like that.


To assume EVERYONE is assuming that is an incorrect assumption. There's really no need to assume what an archer's POD is...when there are pictures that show how an archer's arrow tip intersects their line of sight to the target using sharp's for an example. 



FORESTGUMP said:


> I have tested this idea before and my arrow tip seems to be on the target at 90-100 yds. I just don't see any way under the sun to use it as a sight unless I aim it at the ground somewhere in front of what I want to hit.


Imagine that...my POD is 95yrds. and I can use it to assist me to aim consciously...and it's under the sun :wink:



FORESTGUMP said:


> Must be trick shooting!


Nope! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Forestgump

I believe it is possible to aim and not see the arrow on a conscious level, sharp has said on this thread he likely sees his arrow/sight picture on a subconscious level, we do have the ability to focus on some things and ignore others, we do this in everyday life otherwise our brain would have visual overload. 

I do believe we have degrees of Instinctive shooting, the closer the eye is to the arrow the more we rely on visual input, Kassai has trained his bow arm to follow his aim and doesn't rely on the same visual alighnment of Bow/arrow us tourney shooters use but thats just my opinion. One of the reasons I suggested Sharp show us a video of himself shooting aerial targets.

I don't agree with Sharp that his whole shot sequence is totally subconscious as he has said on previous threads, again just my opinion.

I think people question Sharp because he makes such a big thing about how he's winning tourneys using Instinct, is he trying to convince us or himself that he's an instinctive Archer?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Imagine that...my POD is 95yrds. and I can use it to assist me to aim consciously


Instinctive shooters probably use many points of reference in their peripheral vision to align the shot including the arrow. There is lots of other things going on too including how the shot feels at various distances and memory. The point of instinctive shooting is to *'not deliberately aim'* but there is some alignment going on.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ranger B is right that there is no way to make a seperate class for instinctive only.
> 
> Regarding the definition of instinctive - it is really simple - an instinctive archer aims at a subconscious level - meaning that he pays no conscious attention to the arrow, the bow, the bow hand or arm, etc... - only the spot that he wants to hit - the aiming and even the release are all actions that are mediated below the conscious level - it is "automatic" and requires no thought to distances or aiming references.
> 
> ...


So ... what input do you believe the Pre Frontal and Post Frontal Motor Cortex has on the execution of the shot ?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Destroyer my point in previous posts in comparing Gap and instinct, once Gaps are ingrained into subconscious it's really no different from setting vertical alignment as you mentioned, with Gap you're really just getting the horizontal alignment for each distance, it feels right and the arrow is away. I always say the gap is an awareness (Spatial)rather than a visual measurment but on a slightly higher level of consciousness than instinctive shooters both aiming styles have their focus on the spot they want to hit.

The only difference between the two aiming styles is Gap starts off as a very conscious learning process, where instinct is keeping the conscious focus always on the spot and through repetition learning a subconscious vertical/horizontal alignment for each distance.

Sharp thinks I have to stand at the stake and calculate the distance when in most cases I can just look at the 3D and from experience and feel make the shot, sometimes when it's either a long shot (+40y) or deceptive due to tricky terrain I will take the time to calculate the distance but I would say thats only around 20% of my shots, if anything it's an advantage as I can feel more confident on making longer shots, good for IFAA where the max for 3D's is 60y.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Point of Aim...is an aiming technique.
> 
> Point On Distance (POD)...which is what I'm talking about...is the distance an archer has to elevate their bow arm that places the arrow's tip on the bullseye or on the same horizontal plane for a specific distance.
> 
> ...





Yes it does and you are right I have never shot that far except messing around 

Thx


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Destroyer said:


> Instinctive shooters probably use many points of reference in their peripheral vision to align the shot including the arrow. There is lots of other things going on too including how the shot feels at various distances and memory. The point of instinctive shooting is to *'not deliberately aim'* but there is some alignment going on.


You are exactly right!.....the brain takes in everything to make the shot,body position, hand position, bow position, arrow position, distance, obstacles, wind, terrain, weather and it can do it a lot faster if we don't "help" by thinking, thinking seems to slow or interrupt the process and the results are often skewed which usually lead to a less than stellar shot.....a lot of people have trouble shooting instictive because they try and think the shot through instead of just letting it happen, it's a matter of trust, and some either won't, cannot or don't know how to trust their brain to do this unaided by thought,but this cannot happen overnight it takes thousands and thousands of shots to train the brain,and some just do not have the time it takes to do this, which can vary greatly from shooter to shooter, now this can be done quicker if the shooter is indoors and only shoots a certain distance and never changes that area and distance, but add in different yardages and varied terrain and the shot count will go up considerably in the quest to becoming a proficient instictive archer....... but the real kicker in this is that the brain is not up to par every second of every day, life happens and affects how our brain views things, yes you can tune that stuff out, but sometimes it's extremely hard or impossible, when my son died there was no way I could have kept it together to even shoot(if I was able), but later after things had calmed down, and I had made my peace and I took the gun outside that I had made to check out with.....but .... I went in and grabbed my bow for a few last shots, and I couldn't stop shooting it, I could only pull it half way due to my injuries, but those arrows were the most important arrows of my life because instead of thinking, my brain cleared and the shots just happened, but that's not the only thing that happened....I not only didn't think about the shots, I didn't think about my life.... but my brain still was.....my concious thoughts had clouded my judgement and that judgement had become skewed and it almost cost me my life......what it really comes down to is that your brain is smarter than you are........and it's truly amaing what it can do without any help from us.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I think the saying is we only use about 16% of our brain. I think I use about 2% when I'm at anchor. Anyway, I'm thinking of upping my anchor where I'm looking more down the shaft with a more parallel vision with the shaft. Not sure about where I'll anchor yet but it will probably be the middle finger at the conner of my mouth. Maybe by doing this it will take away some of the mental confusion trying to find out where the POD is or the POA.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ya know I was not going to comment anymore on this - but I am going to throw out one last comment about this claim of what my "point on distance" supposedly is since the expert archer Black Wolf can determine this by a photo of me shooting

1. I don't know nor do I care what it is, but I do know that the arrow is not blocking my line of sight at any shots that I make out to 50 yards - so somehow I doubt that my "point on" is 30 yards.

2. when I went to the NFAA Nationals last year - (Ranger B just posted a video of this years) - the guys were all shooting full length arrows and very heavy arrows to make them slow - I asked why - and they all said that they needed to keep their point on distance short enought so that they can use the tip of their arrow for a sight at 20 yards. These guys had almost 4 inches of arrow hanging over their bows and were shooting arrows traveling 130-150 fps.

I am shooting arrows traveling 214 fps with about an inch overhang - but my point on according to the expert Black Wolf - which he amazingly determined from a photo of me shooting is 30 yards - when these other guys need to have 4 x the overhang and almost 100 fps less speed to have their point on at 20 yards.

Does anyone really believe this nonsense?

The "point" on would be determined by where a person anchors (ie - where the arrow is in relation to the eye - mine is the same as Asbells' as I pointed out several times), the speed of the arrow (I seriously doubt that Asbell a heavy arrow advocate is shooting 214 fps - as I am - thereby making his "point on" closer than mine), and the amount of arrow that overhangs the bow - since I have only enough to ensure that I will not cut myself with a broadhead - obviously there is now way that there could be a point on at 30 yards. 

I tried to shoot about 100 yards was a year ago - and that was the only time that I had an issue with the arrow interfering with my line of sight to what I wanted to hit - so if I had to guess - I would say that my poin on is somewhere well after 50 yards. I shoot in my yard to about 50 yards and the tournaments I go to usually have a max of about 40 yards and never does the arrow interefere with my line of sight to the target - regardless of what the self-proclaimed expert Black Wolf says about some photo he saw of me. 

Funny thing is that I go to shoots all over the country and I never see these self-proclaimed experts at any of them - but on here they can tell everyone everything about archery.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Rembrandt, do you want to shoot instictive? or do you want to use an aiming aid, such as your arrow?........I can help with the first part, but Mr. Morely, Grant, or Sharpy, will be better for the second...........

There's a little shortcut I figured out a while back for learning instictive, it's pretty simple........

when you first start trying instictive shooting, your brain is taking in each and every thing around, well you need to limit that to only what you need to shoot that arrow and the target........full moon nights are great for this......I have a deer target that I lightly painted white on one side, and I added a lighted arrow nock to my arrows, start off close, say 5-10 yards, and when you put every arrow in the bull... back up 5 yards and repeat.......this will teach you of your arrows trajectory which is vital to an instictive shooter, and will also teach confidence as you will not believe how good you will get at this in a very short time.............simple works.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Who cares how someone does or doesn't aim - unless they are string or face walking you just can't tell unless you are in their brain and based off this conversation that is NOT a place I want to be.

Matt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

voodoofire1 said:


> You are exactly right!.....the brain takes in everything to make the shot,body position, hand position, bow position, arrow position, distance, obstacles, wind, terrain, weather and it can do it a lot faster if we don't "help" by thinking, thinking seems to slow or interrupt the process and the results are often skewed which usually lead to a less than stellar shot.....a lot of people have trouble shooting instictive because they try and think the shot through instead of just letting it happen, it's a matter of trust, and some either won't, cannot or don't know how to trust their brain to do this unaided by thought,but this cannot happen overnight it takes thousands and thousands of shots to train the brain,and some just do not have the time it takes to do this, which can vary greatly from shooter to shooter, now this can be done quicker if the shooter is indoors and only shoots a certain distance and never changes that area and distance, but add in different yardages and varied terrain and the shot count will go up considerably in the quest to becoming a proficient instictive archer....... but the real kicker in this is that the brain is not up to par every second of every day, life happens and affects how our brain views things, yes you can tune that stuff out, but sometimes it's extremely hard or impossible, when my son died there was no way I could have kept it together to even shoot(if I was able), but later after things had calmed down, and I had made my peace and I took the gun outside that I had made to check out with.....but .... I went in and grabbed my bow for a few last shots, and I couldn't stop shooting it, I could only pull it half way due to my injuries, but those arrows were the most important arrows of my life because instead of thinking, my brain cleared and the shots just happened, but that's not the only thing that happened....I not only didn't think about the shots, I didn't think about my life.... but my brain still was.....my concious thoughts had clouded my judgement and that judgement had become skewed and it almost cost me my life......what it really comes down to is that your brain is smarter than you are........and it's truly amaing what it can do without any help from us.



voodoo,that tells the whole story right there. Thinking and trying to 'figger out' as rattus said before,is where the trouble starts. One must just accept that the process is simple and does not need to be figured out. That's very likely the problem for people who must have control and 'figger out' how each detail works and why.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Destroyer said:


> Instinctive shooters probably use many points of reference in their peripheral vision to align the shot including the arrow. There is lots of other things going on too including how the shot feels at various distances and memory. The point of instinctive shooting is to *'not deliberately aim'* but there is some alignment going on.



Absolutely. But why is this so hard to understand? I am convinced that it's the refusal to accept the simplicity of the process. No different than many things we all do every day.
The op asked who shoots instinctive only,if I remember correctly, or something to that effect. Now all the usual suspects have highjacked the thread with their dictionarys and calculators. Easy to see why they can't shoot instinctively.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Yep, That's why kids take to it so easily, they just do it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*sharpbroadhead*

Have you ever tried wrestling with a pig in a mudhole? 

Well this argument is pretty similar. :tongue:
Now I suppose I'm in trouble for calling somebody a pig. I actually have not called anyone a pig but from what I've seen,the reading comprehension skills of some of our good friends can twist anything into something totally different from what was actually written.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Forestgump - I am soooooooooo glad that someone else is willing to publicly state what many have said to me privately - thanks

It is really not a matter of their comprehension - it is a matter of bad will - they know full well what they are doing - and when the facts do not side with the position that they hold - they twist and turn, dig and shovel, until they think they have made their case. There is a great deal of wisdom in the old saying: "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> 1. I don't know nor do I care what it is, but I do know that the arrow is not blocking my line of sight at any shots that I make out to 50 yards - so somehow I doubt that my "point on" is 30 yards.


A picture doesn't lie...unless it's been tampered with to change something. A picture has no reason to lie...but people lie for whatever reason they want.

ANYONE can draw a line from the eye to the target in a picture to determine the archer's line of sight. You do NOT need to be an expert to do that. All you need to see and know in a picture is what the archer is looking at, have the eyes in the picture and have the target in the same picture.

If there are objects such as an arrow or a sight pin that intersect that line of sight...there is no way the archer can consciously be unaware of it as they are aiming.

It's only if the arrow is within the archer's periphial vision can an archer not be consciously aware of it if they are only consciously focusing and looking at only the bullseye.

Based on that picture of yourself...there really are only 2 things that could explain why you would NOT be consciously aware of your arrow point.

#1. You are left eye dominant while shooting right handed...which would cause the arrow to not be directly held over the bullseye at your POD.

#2. You weren't on target in that picture yet and hadn't dropped your bow arm down for the correct sight picture...but based on your videos...that pic was taken right before you released the arrow.

Here are a couple more pictures that help show what's going on within an archer's direct line of sight while using Point of Aim.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Thinking and trying to 'figger out' as rattus said before,is where the trouble starts. One must just accept that the process is simple and does not need to be figured out.


Exactly! 

When an archer chooses to not consciously analyze their sight picture and chooses to just consciously focus on the bullseye...that's when they put faith into the process of using their hand and eye coordination to do what it has learned to do through practice.



FORESTGUMP said:


> That's very likely the problem for people who must have control and 'figger out' how each detail works and why.


Yes...there are different personalities...some that are more analytical and need to measure everything out and than there are those that shoot by feel and intuition. There are also those that have learned to use both sides of their brains and can do both equally as well.

A person can make it as simple as they want by describing Instinctive aiming as just pointing and shooting or they can go into medical terminology and describe it as complex as they want. Neither is more right or wrong...they are just different ways of describing what an Instinctive shooter is doing.

Ray :shade:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Done.


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