# Clicker setup and arrow length



## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Despite having read all the dire warnings about transitioning to shooting with a clicker, I've decided to take the plunge and give it a go. 

I've also got a set of shafts coming, but they're not yet cut, so now seems like a good time to get the proper cut length sorted out. 

My first question: should the clicker arm be as close to perpendicular to the shaft as feasible, or is it OK have it at an angle as long as it drops off the end of the pile and not the shoulder?

2nd question: how to determine how long to cut the shafts, measured without the pile, but from the throat of the nock?

My draw length has settled down over the last few months to an even 28" measured to the back of the riser. I'll be putting NIBB points in, so I guess you subtract the length of the point from my draw length. 

I understand that I want to set up the clicker with about 1/16" or so of the arrow pile still under the clicker at my draw length. 

So could I mount the clicker on my riser, align it so that the front edge of the blade is even with the back edge of the riser, check that it's roughly perpendicular to the shaft, then just subtract the length of the NIBB point from my draw length and add back in 1/16"?

Or am I being my typical self and over-thinking this?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Despite having read all the dire warnings about transitioning to shooting with a clicker, I've decided to take the plunge and give it a go.
> 
> I've also got a set of shafts coming, but they're not yet cut, so now seems like a good time to get the proper cut length sorted out.
> 
> ...



Need the specs on your bow.

25-inch riser and short limbs?
25-inch risher and medium limbs?
25-inch riser and long limbs?

What is the weight rating on your limbs (see bottom limb sticker)?

What is your brace height?

What is your draw length?

What arrows did you purchase?
Aluminum?
Carbon?

Brand of arrow?
Spine rating for your arrow?

What pile weight did you purchase?

What vanes did you purchase?
Brand, model and length?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Despite having read all the dire warnings about transitioning to shooting with a clicker, I've decided to take the plunge and give it a go.
> 
> I've also got a set of shafts coming, but they're not yet cut, so now seems like a good time to get the proper cut length sorted out.
> 
> ...


Need all this info
to run a computer program in order to calculate
the power rating for your bow.

Once we figure out the power output for your bow,
then,
we figure the arrow stiffness required,
to be a perfect match for the energy provided by your bow.

When the arrow is the correct stiffness (pile weight, shaft length, vane weight, nock weight...FOC balance point)
then,
the arrows will TUNE for you,
meaning that the arrows will fly straight,
at short and medium and long distances.

IF the arrow is too stiff,
then for a RH shooter,
the arrows will veer off to the left.

IF the arrow is too weak,
for a RH shooter,
then the arrow will veer off to the right,
of where you are aiming.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Johndburk said:


> Despite having read all the dire warnings about transitioning to shooting with a clicker, I've decided to take the plunge and give it a go.
> 
> I've also got a set of shafts coming, but they're not yet cut, so now seems like a good time to get the proper cut length sorted out.
> 
> My first question: should the clicker arm be as close to perpendicular to the shaft as feasible, or is it OK have it at an angle as long as it drops off the end of the pile and not the shoulder?


 I like them as close to perpendicular as I can, but you're right, it isn't crucial. Does your riser has a clicker extension plate? I'd be tempted to go a little bit longer than you're suggesting (maybe up to a quarter inch) as you may find you start to pull just a touch longer than now because of the change in technique.


Johndburk said:


> 2nd question: how to determine how long to cut the shafts, measured without the pile, but from the throat of the nock?
> 
> My draw length has settled down over the last few months to an even 28" measured to the back of the riser. I'll be putting NIBB points in, so I guess you subtract the length of the point from my draw length.
> 
> ...


Sure could, but see above - I'd go a bit longer if you can...



Johndburk said:


> Or am I being my typical self and over-thinking this?


Nope, seems OK. Are you buying your arrows from "nuts&bolts".....?


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

The short and the long....fit the arrow to the bow then worry about your clicker placement, To bare shaft test start your arrow length about 1.5 inches longer than your draw length...insert 100 grain point and start testing. You need to plan on nibbling away at the arrow length as you start testing the shafts....Obviously just use one shaft for testing until you get close...Once you get them hitting correctly at 20yards (bare shaft) you should be able to fine tune If you have the proper shafts they will come close enough to the riser edge for a regular clicker to work..if not they there are clickers that have extension on them....and Yes the clicker can be at an angle.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

And after you have done all that get a good coach to evaluate your form. You may find using a clicker a little frustrating at first. A coach can help you through the process.

Regards,


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

OK, here's the details, but note that the riser/limb combo is still new to me (I've been shooting it less than 2 weeks), and I'll probably be turning the limb bolts in a couple of turns in the next month or so:

25" Helix riser
36# medium Hoyt GM Carbon Plus limbs

limb bolts backed all the way out right now as I adjust to the new weight (was shooting 31# for the last 4 months). With both bolts backed all the way out 5 full turns the tiller ends up being 1/4" positive (not sure is this matters, but noted for completeness). I shoot pretty much every day, so I expect I'll be back up to the bolts halfway out instead of all the way out in about 4-6 weeks.

brace height currently at 8 1/2" - note that this is a new (to me) riser and limb combo. I've spent a day trying the brace height at 1/4" increments between 8 1/2" and 9 1/2", and the bow seems quietest and smoothest at 8 1/2". Unsure if this will change as I turn the limb bolts in over the next couple of months.

draw length is 28" even. Started out at 27 1/4" 4 months ago and got increasingly longer, but it seems to have settled in at 28" - I've measured it a month ago and just a few days ago, and it was 28" both times.

Arrows:
Easton xx75 Platinum Plus 1913
spine weight according to the charts: 0.733
points will be 64gr NIBB (recommended according to the Easton charts, should give a 7% FOC)
uni bushings with small G nocks

3" parabolic feathers (unsure of the brand, it's what the local retailer stocks)

Guess I'm looking for a recommended length to cut them that will leave me with a tunable arrow as I turn the limb bolts in over the next month or so. But a 28" 1913 should be tunable in the 34#-38# range via brace height, plunger position, and limb poundage, correct? 

I guess to be really sure of all this, I'll need to put these limbs on a scale and see what they actually weight at a draw length of 28". Are Hoyt limbs usually pretty close to marked weight, or is that an incredibly naive assumption?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> I guess to be really sure of all this, I'll need to put these limbs on a *scale and see what they actually weigh at a draw length of 28*".


This piece of information is one of the most critical pieces of information.

Gotta know the exact draw weight,
at your CURRENT draw length, and form.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> *Guess I'm looking for a recommended length to cut *them that will leave me with a tunable arrow as I turn the limb bolts in over the next month or so. But a 28" 1913 should be tunable in the 34#-38# range via brace height, plunger position, and limb poundage, correct?
> 
> I guess to be really sure of all this, I'll need to put these limbs on a scale and see what they actually weight at a draw length of 28". Are Hoyt limbs usually pretty close to marked weight, or is that an incredibly naive assumption?



Dump the feathers.

You need MORE weight on the back end,
to make your arrows tunable
between 33 lbs and 36 lbs.

Have your arrows cut END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT (ENG to EOS) = *29.5=inches.*
I suggest 3D Duravanes in the 2.3-inch size.

Go and purchase some inserts for your 1913 arrows.

At 33 lbs of draw weight,
and 28-inches of draw length...

100 grain screw in field points should tune for you...fine tune with the plunger.


At 36 lbs of draw weight,
and 28-inches of draw length...

75 or 80 grain screw in field points will tune for you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Less weight (feathers) will make an arrow behave weaker.

More weight (vanes) will make an arrow behave stiffer.

The insert and screw in field points will give you TUNING flexibilty,
as you change form, as you change DL, slightly.

So,
sell the nibbs.

Sell the feathers or just hang onto them,
and get some 2.3-inch 3D Duravanes (you need the extra weight in the back end).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Lindy said:


> And after you have done all that get a good coach to evaluate your form. You may find using a clicker a little frustrating at first. A coach can help you through the process.
> 
> Regards,


Yup.

Agree 100%.

Small changes in body position (form)
will also result in small changes to your DL,
and this will drive you absolutely STIR CRAZY,
when trying to figure out proper position
for the clicker.


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

So at 29.5" plus the length of the field point, it would seem that the end of the pile will be almost 2" past the back of my riser (which is at 28"), which will make the use of a riser-mounted clicker problematic. 

Needing this long an arrow and having to add mass to the rear of the arrow would seem to imply that the 1913's at a spine of 0.733 are too stiff for a bow in the 33#-36# range. 

If I'm looking more for an arrow that will tune at around 28", will I need to go up another spine weight?

As stated in the OP, I've measured my draw length to the back of the riser, not to the rest; isn't this the convention? Or is the "draw length" input parameter for your length calculation measured at the rest, which would make sense, as it's at the plunger where the riser interacts with the shaft.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> So at 29.5" plus the length of the field point, it would seem that the end of the pile will be almost 2" past the back of my riser (which is at 28"), which will make the use of a riser-mounted clicker problematic.
> 
> Needing this long an arrow and having to add mass to the rear of the arrow would seem to imply that the 1913's at a spine of 0.733 are too stiff for a bow in the 33#-36# range.
> 
> ...


a 28-inch Draw Length,
implies a tape measure reading
of 26.25-inches...

measured from the deepest part of the curve on the grip
to the center serving where the nock groove touches the center serving.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> So at 29.5" plus the length of the field point, it would seem that the end of the pile will be almost 2" past the back of my riser (which is at 28"), which will make the use of a riser-mounted clicker problematic.
> 
> Needing this long an arrow and having to add mass to the rear of the arrow would seem to imply that the 1913's at a spine of 0.733 are too stiff for a bow in the 33#-36# range.
> 
> ...


Most risers come with a clicker extension
(flat aluminum plate that sticks out away from the riser).

If you have a clicker extension,
then your pile can extend past the riser away from you.

ALSO,
since you are just starting out,
if is HIGHLY likely that your DL will continue to increase,
as your form evolves.

So,
if you REALLY are absolutely sure
that you have a 28-inch draw length
(pivot point to center serving = 26.25-inches when at full draw)...

which means....26.25 inches PLUS 1.75-inches = 28.0 inch DL...


Easton Platinum Plus XX75 aluminum arrows...

MUST use the 3D Durvanes in the 2.3-inch SIZE...
*Have the END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT (ENG to EOS) = 28.00*

When the draw weight = 36 lbs, USE 100 grain screw in field points.

When the draw weight = 33 lbs, USE 125 grain screw in field points.


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

So which value is it that gets entered in when calculating the shaft length? 

Draw length to pivot point? In this case, we should consider my draw length to be 26.5", as it seems on my Hoyt Helix that the back of the riser where the shaft passes over it is 1.5" past the deepest part of the grip.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> So at 29.5" plus the length of the field point, it would seem that the end of the pile will be almost 2" past the back of my riser (which is at 28"), which will make the use of a riser-mounted clicker problematic.
> 
> Needing this long an arrow and having to add mass to the rear of the arrow would seem to imply that the 1913's at a spine of 0.733 are too stiff for a bow in the 33#-36# range.
> 
> ...



A need for EXTRA weight at the back end of the arrow,
implies that the arrow shaft is TOO WEAK.

Field points only come in certain sizes....100 grains, 125 grains...on the heavy end.

So,
when the END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT = 28.0 inches...

your end of pile weight to end of nock groove should be a skosh LESS than 28.5-inches.

You can have a piece of aluminum shaped with a mill file
to make a clicker plate. Looks like you have an indentation to mount a clicker plate on the Helix riser.

If you call Lancaster Archery, they may be able to sell you a clicker plate for the Helix riser.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> So which value is it that gets entered in when calculating the shaft length?
> 
> Draw length to pivot point? In this case, we should consider my draw length to be 26.5", as it seems on my Hoyt Helix that the back of the riser where the shaft passes over it is 1.5" past the deepest part of the grip.


Is the pivot point to center serving measurement...

26.25-inches???

26.50-inches???

Makes a HUGE difference.

Computer programs always want to know the AMO Draw Length,
which is the SUM of the tape measure measurement
PLUS 1.75-inches.











So, what is the correct Pivot Point to Nock Groove for YOUR current form,
when you are at full draw?

I have assumed your Pivot Point to Nock Groove length = 26.25-inches,
which means,
your AMO Draw Length is 28.0-inches.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> So which value is it that gets entered in when calculating the shaft length?
> 
> Draw length to pivot point? In this case, we should consider my draw length to be 26.5", as it seems on my Hoyt Helix that the back of the riser where the shaft passes over it is 1.5" past the deepest part of the grip.


Ignore the depth of the riser.

Not important.

Only thing that matters is the pivot point to nock groove length/measurement.


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Sorry, it looks like we're cross-posting. 

Thanks for all your help with this. 

I'll go with the 28" shaft ENG to EOS and the duravanes.


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Is the 1.75" difference between AMO and tape measure length a hard and fast rule? It seems my Helix is 1.5" from deepest part of the grip to the back of the riser, which would make my tape measure length 26.5".


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Argh. All so confusing. 

I've been measuring DL to the back of the riser as 28". 

My Helix has the pivot point 1.5" in front of the back of the riser. 

Which puts my pivot point at 26.5". 

If AMO DL is by definition "pivot point plus 1.75", then my AMO DL would be 28.25"

I wonder the programs don't use "nock groove to center of button", which would seem to more accurately describe the dimensions of the system acting on the arrow, since the button is the point at which the riser acts on the arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Is the 1.75" difference between AMO and tape measure length a hard and fast rule? It seems my Helix is 1.5" from deepest part of the grip to the back of the riser, which would make my tape measure length 26.5".


YES.

The 1.75-inch EXTRA is a hard and fast rule.

Since the tape measure reading is 26.5-inches...
then,
YOUR AMO DL = 26.50 + 1.75-inches EQUALS 28.25-inches of DL.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Argh. All so confusing.
> 
> I've been measuring DL to the back of the riser as 28".
> 
> ...


BERGER BUTTON hole is not always the same for each riser.

If you rip off the grip and shoot ...off the riser,
you get a different measurement on the tape measure...

versus,
the factory grip, which has a certain thickness and moves the pivot point CLOSER to your face...

versus
custom grip, which has a DIFFERENT thickness and may move the pivot point CLOSER to your face
or
FARTHER AWAY from your face.

This is way we measure to the pivot point.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Argh. All so confusing.
> 
> I've been measuring DL to the back of the riser as 28".
> 
> ...



This is why an ACCURATE measurement of DL is very important.

Since your AMO DL is now 28.25-inches....

the software is telling me that you are in between sizes on the point weight.
This is what usually happens.

I work with a lot of recurve shooters at the local indoor range,
so I have to run these calculations all the time.


STICK with the feathers now.

Purchase inserts.

Get an ACCURATE measurement of the draw weight, at your CURRENT draw length of 28.25-inches.


My calculations tell me...

Easton Platinum Plus XX&% 1913 aluminum arrows...
3-inch FEATHERS
INSERT installed...

*if you are shooting 36 lbs of weight on the fingers...*DL = 28.25-inches

USE 90 GRAIN FIELD POINTS,
with the END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT LENGTH = 28.00 inches.


*if you are shooting 34.5 lbs of weight on the fingers...*
DL = 28.25-inches

USE 100 GRAIN FIELD POINTS,
with the END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT LENGTH = 28.00 inches.


*If you are shooting 32 lbs on the fingers...*
USE 125 grain field points,
with the 3-inch feathers
and
END of NOCK GROOVE to END of SHAFT = 28.00 inches.


This gives you a ROUGH idea of the various weights on the fingers
that will tune for you, with standard weights of screw in field points
and the inserts....

with FEATHERS
and
with the END of nock groove to END of shaft = 28.00 inches.


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification. I always enjoy learning something new. 

How much does entering a new AMO DL of 28.25" change the arrow specs?

I received 2 lengths of clicker plates when I bought the riser off of thrillspike, so I have extra length covered. But if I need to add extra weight in the rear of the arrow to make it appear stiffer, wouldn't I be better off trying to take off some shaft length to stiffen the spine, as well as a lighter point? A lighter point will make the arrow appear stiffer due to dynamic spine, correct? Or have I got it backwards again?


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## Johndburk (Apr 29, 2011)

Cross-posting again. Sorry, I should be more patient. 

Thank you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I always enjoy learning something new.
> 
> How much does entering a new AMO DL of 28.25" change the arrow specs?
> 
> I received 2 lengths of clicker plates when I bought the riser off of thrillspike, so I have extra length covered. But if I need to add extra weight in the rear of the arrow to make it appear stiffer, wouldn't I be better off trying to take off some shaft length to stiffen the spine, as well as a lighter point? A lighter point will make the arrow appear stiffer due to dynamic spine, correct? Or have I got it backwards again?


My concern is that as you progress in skill,
the form will "narrow up"
and the bow DL will usually get a skosh LONGER.

So,
since you are currently at AMO DL 28.25-inches...

and the END of nock groove to END of shaft will be 28.00-inches...
with the end of the pile probably in the range of 28.50-inches....

we have room on the arrow for your DL to grow a little bit.

Since you have feathers now,
keep them on your arrows.

Goto a local pro shop or learn how to install inserts
with some hot melt glue.

Get a variety of field point weights.

Experiment with the heavier field point weights for now,
and tweak the limb bolts to find the draw weight which gives you
the absolute BEST GROUPS at a comfy distance.

Since you are starting to work with a clicker,
find an advanced archer in your area,
and have them work with you on form,
a CONSISTENT anchor (touch point on your face)
and learning how to "rotate the draw arm/draw side elbow through" the clicker.

If you spend the time to find a coach/advanced shooter that "clicks" with you...hehehe (pardon the pun)
then,
your learning curve will be that much quicker
smoother,
and ohh so much LESS frustation.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Johndburk said:


> Cross-posting again. Sorry, I should be more patient.
> 
> Thank you.


Welcome.

No worries.


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

To be honest, if youre just learning to use a clicker dont worry at all about all the fine details of arrow tuning, it will be counter-productive and a waste of time and money. The arrows you ordered will do fine and would be a close enough match to learn with. By the time youve got a good handle on shooting with a clicker you'll know much more about your exact draw length and have a much better idea on how the arrows tune - and then you can start to worry about point weights, fletchings etc. Though in my experience (1280+ FITAs) messing around with point weights and fletchings within "normal" parameters has very little impact on how the arrows tune. Buy a spine close enough and then technique is everything. How the arrows tune will also change as your technique develops, so spend the time/money when youre happy with the way youre shooting.

I'd agree with leaving the arrows a little longer than you think you need, especially if the bow has a clicker plate. Some angle on the clicker is fine and you can always cut the arrows at a later date whereas adding length back on is a bit tricky  Also, if your draw length increases in the future with any technique change you can still use the arrows.


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