# Centershot Revisited (shims)



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Just move the arrow rest until the two arrows are parallel.











Your Beiter blade rest is tunable, can move sideways. So, move the blade rest sideways,
until the two arrows are parallel to each other. Move blade rest to the right, until you achieve parallelism.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> I'm still trying to get a nice centershot out of my PSE Drive 3B.
> 
> It came with a centershot 16mm off the riser, quite someway short of the line PSE put in the rest platform (19.5mm), and even further from 13/16 (20.63mm).
> 
> ...


You do know that there is nothing MAGIC about 20,63 for centershot, correct?
More important than getting 20,63 mm for centershot, is what size are your groups at 18 meters.
Can you shoot one arrow (fletched) in the same hole at 18 meters?



One of my students, did a partial stress test. A stress test is where I have a student put ONE fletched arrow
in the quiver, and fire that one fletched arrow for 30 shots in a row. Yes, that means you must walk to the target
and pull out the arrow. Return to the shooting line and fire that ONE fletched arrow again. So, he stopped his test
after 21 shots in a row, plunging the ONE fletched arrow in the SAME hole.

So, take your bow as is, and fire your fletched arrow, a single fletched arrow at the target 18 meters away.
Can you stuff that arrow in the same hole at 18 meters? If you cannot, focus MORE on your form,
and on draw length tuning, instead of tuning the bowstring to some random measurement.

Your first problem, is that your arrow is not parallel to the arrow clamped/rubber banded to the riser.
GEt the Beiter blade rest shoved over to the right, until both arrows are parallel, with the current shim arrangement,
with the current cable guard rod position.

Then, shoot one fletched arrow at a target 18 meters, away, and fire 30 shots in a row.
Then, post a photo of the shotgun pattern, and we can proceed from there, about what changes to make.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

ok, I sorted the centershot:










but heavy rain meant I could not take your 30 shot test.

I’ll try it tomorrow, although I’m not exactly sure what the point is.

I’ve only been shooting for six months and average 265 for 30 on a WA 18m, so there is no chance of me repeatedly hitting the same spot, tuned bow or untuned bow.

Still I’ll try it tomorrow, weather permitting.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> ok, I sorted the centershot:
> 
> View attachment 7365440
> 
> ...


Yes you can, the 30 shot test with ONE arrow teaches you consistency for FULL draw posture,
consistency for how much you pull past holding weight...ideally 3 pounds MORE than holding weight.

You can hit the SAME hole, by shooting at 2 meters, by shooting at 1.5 meters.
THIS is your goal, to build muscle memory.



You should be able to find 2 meters in your garage.
The POINT of training is to TRAIN, to DRILL the muscle movements, required so you can shoot 270 with no effort.
So, you shoot 3000 shots at just 2 meters, but only 30 shots at a time.
This drill teaches you PATIENCE, cuz without discipline, without patience...
if you RUSH the shot (you only have 1 arrow)

You will get this result, at only 2 meters.



Physical discipline to shoot the same shot. If you repeat the movements with any degree of discipline,
any newbie can shoot 30 shots in the same hole at only 2 meters.

Mental discipline to shoot the same shot, only AFTER your "batteries" are fully recharged.
This means to take TWICE as long as you think you need, to breathe in, to breathe out, to clear the mind,
to EMPTY out your mind, and allow muscle memory to take over, to fire the next shot. IF you clear your brain,
and allow your body to get into the flow of things, the next shot goes in the SAME hole.

So, you set down your bow and walk forwards a step or two, and pull out the arrow.
Return to the shooting line. Breathe in. Breathe out. Sing a song in your head, to pass the time
while WAITING for "batteries" to recharge..meaning for the body to fully relax and prepare for the next shot.
Then, you empty your mind, almost go into a TRANCE, and repeat.

So, after a short while of TRAINING,
your brain becomes sooooo BORED, cuz this is SOOOOO EASY, it's ONLY 2 meters.
Perfect. WE want your brain BORED, so your body does all the work, so your BRAIN starts to EXPECT
one hole accuracy. 

AFter you log 100 training sessions, then, bump up the difficulty to 3 meters.
With 3000 shots under your belt, in the SAME hole....shooting one hole accuracy at 3 meters will be a piece of cake,
no perceived increase in difficult.

Another 100 training sessions at 3 meters. YOur brain becomes BORED again, even though the difficult was a tad higher, the level of control was a bit more RIGOROUS. BUT, you SLOG through 3000 shots in the SAME hole at 3 meters. Your body is becoming accustomed to the HIGHER levels of control.

After 3000 shots at 3 meters, then, you try 4 meters.
After a short while, this becomes SOOOOOOO boring, cuz it's soooo EASY.
Perfect. Your body is rapidly adjusting to the HIGHER levels of control.

AS a side effect, you may find that your 18 meter scores are also CLIMBING,
cuz the muscle memory is starting to take hold.

THIS is the purpose.
Positive reinforcement.
Mental conditioning.
BRAINWASHING the conscious mind to get out of the way, of the BODY executing a series of well controlled movements.

THIS is how to become a 270 average shooter.
Continue the training and you will become a 280 average shooter, and so on and so on.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

So I took the 30 shots at 18m this morning. One shot at a time, then retrieve.

6 tens, the majority in the nine and some wild shots in the eight, seven and six.

That's a few more tens than I'd normally get, but also a couple more wild shots than usual.

All shots found the target face, ignore the shots outside they were from previous days.










It was interesting and enjoyable shooting this way, as it gave accurate and immediate feedback on each shot.

Although I didn't keep score, in the end it felt like a fairly poor round.

Still I think I'll shoot 30 one at a time again.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

@nuts&bolts

Going back to the centershot issue.

The Drive 3B shot about the same before I shimmed it. When it had a 16mm centershot.

What it wouldn't do was shoot bullet holes through paper.

I read numerous threads on this forum and the concensious seemed to be:

Set centershot to manufacture specifications (usually 13/16) or 13/16 if specifications unavailable.

If you need to move the rest more than 1/16 in any one direction to achieve bullet holes, then something else should be adjusted: cable guard, yokes or shims.

In any event I was repeatedly told not to accept 16mm as a centershot.

I have a secondary issue that I believe my #4,0.25 (0.10 equivalent) blade rest is too stiff for my 361grain 5.6mm O.D. arrows.

I've ordered some #4,0.20 (0.08 equivalent) blades, but it's taking a few weeks for them to arrive.

So in the meantime I thought I'd adjust to a suitable centershot - even knowing I probably won't get bullet holes through paper until the #4,0.20 blades arrive.

What has really suprised me is that threads on shimming cams tend to say a little shim makes a big difference, and you usually only need to move the thinnest shim.

This was not my experience.

I found that moving a 3mm shim from the left side of the top cam to the right side moved my centershot by only 1.5mm to the left.

I found moving a 5.5mm shim from the left side of both top and bottom cams, while moving the 3mm shim back to the left has only moved my centershot from 16mm to 18.8mm and that includes a least 0.8mm I got from also adjusting the cable guard.

I now have cams that are shimmed 3mm on the left, 11mm on the right, on both cams. A cable guard moved into the arrow as far as I dare, and still only 18.8mm centershot.

So my reality has not matched what I have read.

Another issue is that I have my 29mm scope fitted as far right as the main rod will allow and as far right as my sights windage will allow to get an accurate target. 

This leaves me zero windage adjustment available.

I had thought bringing my centershot out to the left would have helped, but the 2.8mm movement made no obvious difference.


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## tirving (Nov 3, 2013)

Nick72 said:


> @nuts&bolts
> 
> Going back to the centershot issue.
> 
> ...


You're going to benefit from DL tuning. That's where nuts & bolts will likely take you.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

So finally let's talk about this mornings shooting through paper - even knowing I have the above issues.










I adjusted the rest less than 0.1mm to the right to take out a very slight left tear with a slight high tear.

I got 'Yellow' a very very slight right tear with a slight high tear.

I moved the rest up by 0.1mm I got 'Blue' a worse high tear.

I moved the rest down by 0.05mm and got 'Green' - which makes no sense to me.

I'm shooting through paper at 12 feet. The target butt is at 14 feet.

So how do the 'Green' arrows travel 12 feet with a severe right tear, yet hit the target butt two feet later with a slight left tear?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

The arrow rest sideways position is TIED to the cam shimming arrangement.
BLINDLY moving the arrow rest to a 13/16ths sideways position, is completely MEANINGLESS
if you end up with the arrow crooked in relation to the riser wall.

What do you mean?
THIS means, if I adjust the top cam HARD RIGHT, by moving all the cam axle spacers (shims) to the left side of the top cam, then, the arrow will ONLY be parallel to the riser wall, if you shove the arrow rest CLOSER to the riser wall...yes, the arrow will ONLY be parallel to the riser, with a sideways position LESS than 13/16ths.

So, now let's move all the axle spacers on the top axle, so ALL of the axle spacers (shims) are on the right side of the top cam. So, the top cam is now all the way HARD LEFT on the top axle.

So, you blindly set the arrow rest sideways position at 13/16ths, cuz you are "supposed to".
Well, it don't work that way.
When you get the arrow pointing parallel to the riser wall, the arrow is now MORE than 13/16ths away from the riser wall.

WHY is this?
Well, cuz we moved ALL of the cam spacers to the RIGHT of the top cam, and so now the top cam is HARD LEFT on the top axle.

So, what does this mean?

This means, we ALWAYS set the arrow to point DEAD straight ahead, parallel to the wall of the riser.
This means, that when we adjust the cam spacers (shims), we can make nearly ANY arrow rest spacing, 
provided us with an arrow that points parallel to the wall of the riser.

So, set the arrow rest sideways spacing like THIS.



BUT, what if I don't have the arrow rest at 13/16ths? I heard that you ALWAYS have to close your eyes,
use the tape measure, and BLINDLY set the arrow rest at 13/16ths????

IT is better to understand WHY and HOW a compound bow works.
For maximum efficiency, we want the arrow to fly parallel to the wall of the riser.
But why?

Well, for one thing, axles are drilled 90 degrees to the limb tips.
So, what????

So, if the limbs are not twisted,
if the limbs point dead straight ahead,
cuz the riser walls are not twisted
so the riser walls point dead straight ahead,
then, the cams will also point dead straight ahead.

Do you see a pattern here? Everything on a bow, points dead straight ahead.
So, if the riser is pointing dead straight ahead,
if the cams are pointing dead straight ahead,
then, you want the arrow to also point dead straight ahead...REGARDLESS of what tape measure reading you get.

So, if you want, 
if you insist on the arrow rest set at 13/16ths,
go purchase a digital caliper
and go purchase the custom shim kit (axle spacers)
and adjust the cam spacing, until the bowstring is in the position that allows
the arrow to be set at 13/16ths, and DEAD parallel to the riser walls.

If you set the arrow at 13/16ths, and the arrow is pointing LEFT...this means the nock needs to swing to the LEFT
and you need to ADD cam spacers (shims) to the right side of the top cam
and you also need to install THINNER cam spacers (shims) to the LEFT side of the top cam,
such that the total width of all the spacers (shims) on the top axle, total up to the same total width of spacers (shims).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> So finally let's talk about this mornings shooting through paper - even knowing I have the above issues.
> 
> View attachment 7365925
> 
> ...


So, after you adjust the BLADE rest so that the arrow is dead PARALLEL to the riser wall
like this...



NOW, you leave the arrow rest alone.
YOu Fire a group of fletched arrows at 18 meters. Like this.



Do not move the arrow rest. LEAVE arrow rest alone.
BUT, what about my paper tears? FORGET paper, for now. Fire a bareshaft at the 18 meter target. Like this.



K. So, bareshaft missing all the way to the LEFT, means a nock right tear, so I gotta twist my right yoke shorter,
I gotta shim my cams to the right, and I could shim the top left limb pocket, and I can also move the arrow rest to the LEFT.

No.
Huh? BUt, I heard I'm supposed to shim and to yoke tune, and I'm supposed to do something with my grip, and twist my thumb, and torque this and tweak that, and maybe I need to adjust the weights on my side stabilizers, or maybe I need two side stabilizers, and stand on one foot. RIght?

No.

If you fire a fletched group, and a bareshaft at 18 meters,
and you get THIS result..



Leave the arrow rest alone.
Leave the cam shims alone. DO not shim.
Leave the yoke legs alone. DO not yoke tune.
Leave stabilizers alone.
Leave your grip alone.

Change the brace height of your bow.
Huh?
What do you mean CHANGE my brace height? My brace height is in SPEC.
If I change my brace height, then, my brace height will be OUT of spec.
If my brace is OUT of SPEC, then maybe, I might break my bow, it might explode or something.

Nope. 
Change the brace height LONGER than spec, on purpose.
How do you change brace height LONGER than spec, on purpose?

You use a bow press and you shorten both cables. I shortened both cables, to grow my brace height out of spec, 1/16th inch LONGER...I grew the brace height 1,5875mm longer.

So, with the brace 1,5875mm longer, I fired the bareshaft twice at the 40 cm target, 18 meters away.



Look at that! The bareshaft hit closer to the x-ring. Let's try again. But, I went back to the bowpress
and shortened both cables again, and made the brace 3,175mm LONGER than spec, on purpose.



Look at that! The bareshaft hit closer yet again to the x-ring. No cam shimming. No yoke tuning.
No moving the arrow rest. Arrow rest is still parallel to the bowstring.
But there is a secret. Just making the brace height LONGER than spec, is not enough.
MUST 
ALSO
CHANGE
FORM....like this.



Wait a sec. The photos show a LONGER d-loop.
U said that you changed the brace height LONGER.

Yup. Either way, will give the SAME end result. You will anchor release hand FARTHER back on your head
and the entire goal, is to SWING the release elbow MORE clockwise behind your head.

So, I grew brace height again to 6,35 mm longer than spec.
Right elbow swung MORE clockwise behind my head.
Right hand (release hand) is now anchoring 6,35 mm FARTHER backwards on my head.



The new swing angle is a subtle amount MORE CLOCKWISE.



The bareshaft is now hitting the 10-ring on the 40cm target. Bareshaft impact has moved 165,1 mm to the right, nearly half way across the 40cm target.

So, let's fire three fletched arrows again.



So, get to a 18 meter target. Fire three fletched and fire the bareshaft at least twice. TAke photo of the target.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Okay @nuts&bolts 

Here they are:


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## mightymite04 (Jan 14, 2015)

Nick72 said:


> Okay @nuts&bolts
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> ...


The bow you have is pretty short ata. If paper tuner is easy to get to draw bow straight back anchor never moving your head keep nose of string and fire shot through paper.


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## tirving (Nov 3, 2013)

Nick72 said:


> So finally let's talk about this mornings shooting through paper - even knowing I have the above issues.
> 
> View attachment 7365925
> 
> ...


How long are your arrows? You might want to increase the distance between paper and target to at least the length of your arrows, probably 6" or so more. 
If the arrows is still going through paper when it hits the target, you will probably get inconsistent tears.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

tirving said:


> How long are your arrows? You might want to increase the distance between paper and target to at least the length of your arrows, probably 6" or so more.
> If the arrows is still going through paper when it hits the target, you will probably get inconsistent tears.


Hi @tirving -

My arrows are approximately 28 inches (can't remember if they are 27.5 carbon to carbon, but it's something close to that).

I guess I miss quoted above, because my arrows are at least 8 inches passed the paper before hitting the backstop.

I still find it really strange that they can give such a strong right tear 80% of the way to the target (at the paper), and yet hit the target, 0.05 seconds later, perfectly parallel to the ground and with only a very slight left nock.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay @nuts&bolts
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> ...


Need SIDE view photo.

Get down on your knees and get camera phone lens at the SAME height as the arrows.
Photo like this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay @nuts&bolts
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> ...


Instead of shooting top target at belt height, get target as high as you can,
ideally shoot at target at SHOULDER height.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay @nuts&bolts
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> ...


IF you are right handed, and using a right handed bow, grow the d-loop roughly 5,0 mm longer.
Purpose is to move release hand 5,0mm farther back on your head,
so right elbow (release elbow) can swing MORE clockwise behind your head. This will make
the bareshaft impact MORE to the right.










This will not work, if you ONLY install 5,0mm longer d-loop and make ZERO change to the position of the right elbow.
See example photo on lower right. Right elbow MUST swing more clockwise behind your head,
right elbow MUST swing from 5-o'clock position, to 6-o'clock position.

Even if you THINK your right elbow is in line behind arrow, swing right elbow MORE clockwise behind your head
to pull string sideways left. This will pull the nock SIDEWAYS left, and the point of your bareshaft will fly SIDEWAYS right, and the bareshaft will impact more to the right. Want bareshaft to impact 6-o'clock low,
instead of low and left.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Hey @nuts&bolts

I think subconsciously I've known my shooting elbow had been forward of ideal form for some time.

I pulled back the bow to see what good form and a further rotated shooting elbow feels like, and it was clear I was far too compressed and would have to put far too much pressure on both front and rear hands to hold this posture.

I have therefore gone to a 29 inch draw length. While this is not immediately natural for me, it is the only way that provides enough space for my shooting elbow to come around.

It's possible I'm 28.80 draw length, but I'm now certain I'm closer to 29inch than 28.5.

As I changed draw length I left the d-loop alone.

This was the result:



















































Inconsistent but no real improvement on bareshaft.

I did have one or two shots where the bareshaft came in much closer to alignment with the fletched, but haven't included then here because I'm sure they were the product of poor shots.

I will try increasing d-loop this evening and then try to shoot again tomorrow.

My backstop only has one center core to line up with the target and raising the center to shoulder height is going to be a challenge. I'll see if I can find a solution over the next couple of weeks.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Hey @nuts&bolts
> 
> I think subconsciously I've known my shooting elbow had been forward of ideal form for some time.
> 
> ...


Need a form photo at 29-inches of draw.
Need a form photo at 28.5-inches of draw.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Need a form photo at 29-inches of draw.
> Need a form photo at 28.5-inches of draw.


Here you go:























































Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my form.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> View attachment 7366467
> 
> ...


1) MAJOR problem #1. No bow sling. Need at least a loop of paracord, to slide bow hand through the loop.
With no bow sling, then, every shot you HAVE to grab the bow, to prevent bow from hitting the ground.
Find some paracord, and make a loop, loose loop to rest on the wrist, so IMPOSSIBLE to drop bow.

2) 29-inch is too long, 28.5-inch is also too long, cuz you are leaning backwards on both draw sizes.
Both draw sizes did not improve bareshaft results. Therefore, the problem is the full draw posture,
and both draw sizes are no good.

3) ankles too far apart, the SUPER WIDE ankles allow you to lean backwards and not feel it. Get ankles touching side by side, and will be EASIER to feel that you are not in balance.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

28.5 photo. Not near enough rotation on bow hand wrist, knuckles way too vertical.
I can see nearly 100% of bow hand thumb muscle oozing past the vertical right edge of the grip.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> View attachment 7366467
> 
> ...


So, if I lean BACKWARDS enough, I can make a 30-inch draw LOOK like the string does not touch my nose.










Right side pic is your original 28.5 draw pic. I drew a vertical reference line through the belly button.
You can see in your right side pic, the red vertical reference line does NOT go through the midline of your neck,
cuz you are leaning BACKWARDS SOOOOO much. Just look at all the DIAGONAL lines in your t-shirt.

DEAD giveaway, you are leaning WAY backwards, to make the 28.5 draw LOOKS like it's too tight,
and I couldn't POSSIBLY fit a 28.5-inch draw, cuz it's too short, I'm such a BIG guy. 

Well, stand to your neck is centered above your belly button,
lean FORWARDS enough so that ALL The diagonal creases go away in the t-shirt..

heck, I'll digitally cut off your head, and re-glue your head directly above your belly button
heck, I'll digitally cut off your body below the armpits, and above your shorts, and TILT your body 2-degrees FORWARDS, towards the target, and voila...

the same string angle suddenly, MAGICALLY touches your nose.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, when you stand up STRAIGHT, instead of leaning backwards, your right eyeball moves FORWARDS 1.5-inches or so. Thumb button on your release moves forwards about an 1inch.

More important, the RIGHT elbow swings FORWARDS
and swings UP...to the same height as top of ear. YOu WANT the right elbow HIGHER than wrist.







so, try the 28.5 draw again, and this time, stand at full draw,
with ankles TOUCHING
with the end of front stab 2-inches away from the target.

So, with feet and ankles TOUCHING side by side,
MOVE left armpit fORWARDS, so the end of front stab TOUCHES the target, 2-inches away.

Yes, will FEEL like you are falling forwards.
It will feel WEIRD that left armpit is FORWARDS of left ankle.

If you cannot master standing up straight, without pulling head/neck AWAY from bowstring,
use a plumb bob.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Major problems with bow hand.










1) wrist is not horizontal. Right side wrist is WAY high, and left side wrist is WAY low (green arrows)
So, rotate wrist MUCH MUCH more clockwise, so the thumb muscle drops down.
Get knuckles all the way to 45 degrees. Not a style thing. Will fix bareshaft a great deal.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

2) thumb and pointer finger are in REVERSE positions. Point finger knuckle should rise ABOVE the arrow shelf.
This automatically happens when the knuckles are twisted clockwise so knuckles are 45 degrees, like this.



I don't need to see your knuckles, to know that your knuckles are WAY WAY too much vertical.
So, get some rope, some paracord, and make a loop, a bow sling. Then, twist your bow hand WAY clockwise.

New photos.

You don't have a centershot problem.
YOu have multiple over-lapping FORM issues,..bow hand grip technique, and leaning backwards away from the bowstring when draw is at 28.5-inches. 29-inches is way wrong. Even 28.5-inches might be no good,
but cannot tell until you stop leaning head/neck backwards....need ONE photo where you are standing up straight.

Use plumb bob, if needed, or even the edge of a door.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Wow - thank you so much @nuts&bolts 

I would have carried on completely unaware of these form issues.

I didn't even see them when I looked at the photos.

I'll go back to 28.5 draw length and work on everything you have mentioned.

I really appreciate your help with this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Wow - thank you so much @nuts&bolts
> 
> I would have carried on completely unaware of these form issues.
> 
> ...


Try the DIY bow sling.
FIX the bow hand grip.
Use a plumb bob to learn how to stand up straight, center of neck directly over belly button.
New form photo, then, we try a shooting test again.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

A quick progress update.

It's been a lot to adjust to all at once, but all very positive.

Since @nuts&bolts pointed out that I was leaning backwards, and I clearly was, I have made efforts to remain straight.

Immediately this put my nose back in contact with the string, something that has been missing for several months.

I've now gone down to a 28 inch draw and feel much more comfortable.

I had to move my peep sight down the string about 8mm.

I then went from a 1/8th peep sight to a 3/64th peep sight (quite a big change).

As we are not chasing the 13/16th centershot I re-shimmed the cams back to a more central to axel position that feels more natural, and in turn they feel smoother.

The plumb-bob is handy for looking at photos and assessing if you are standing straight, although this is still something I'm practicing as it doesn't give any feedback while you are shooting.



























I did try the wrist sling, but honestly just found it combersom. The PSE Drive 3B is very dead in the hand and has no tenandancy to jump forward on the shot.


















The new hand position has been a revelation. It was fairly easy to adjust too - I hope I'm doing it right - and made an instant impact:










First arrows without sighting in, and the bareshaft had come completely in from being 8 inches to the left.











After some practice I even found the bareshaft ending up to the right of the fletched group:




























Does this mean I'm over rotating my right elbow (exaggerating the form)?

It's been really interesting so far. I'll need to keep on practicing with it.

Alan - I'm very grateful for the advise so far, and looking forward to further critisim and instruction.

Oh - and feet closer together feels much more natural.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

One more thing.

My scope is still as far right as possible, both on the retaining arm and via windage on the sight.

Can you think of any reason I would be so maxed out to the right?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> One more thing.
> 
> My scope is still as far right as possible, both on the retaining arm and via windage on the sight.
> 
> Can you think of any reason I would be so maxed out to the right?


Cumbersome or not, USE the wrist sling. With no sling, you MUST grab the bow, to prevent dropping bow on the ground.

With wrist sling, you can completely relax bow hand, so thumb muscle is as mushy as a goose down pillow.
We want the thumb muscle as soft as possible, so the grip SINKS into thumb muscle.
With no wrist sling, after you fire the arrow, FINGERS MUST react and SQUEEZE onto the bow, to prevent dropping bow,
so then thumb muscle becomes IMMEDIATE speed bump and bow riser will ALWAYS swing sideways.

So, no wrist sling, the arrow group will ALWAYS be larger than your true accuracy potential.

We want the bow to fall out of our fingers, and we WANT the wrist sling to CATCH the bow.

With wrist sling, and loosey goosey fingers, and mushy thumb muscle, where bow falls into my wrist sling,
I can do this at 20 yards.







If you want to skip the wrist sling, then you need to always shoot over grass
and allow bow to drop onto the grass after each shot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Need to check your arrow rest sideways position. Want to confirm you have arrow rest sideways position (centershot)
adjusted so arrow on the arrow rest is DEAD parallel to a 2nd arrow, clamped to the riser wall. CLamp 2nd arrow anywhere ABOVE the arrow on the arrow rest.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

After you confirm that arrow rest sideways position, has arrow on the arrow rest DEAD parallel to a 2nd arrow, clamped to the riser wall...

then, do a sight windage test at 2 meters.



Target and a length of dental floss. Put a nail in the target and hang dental floss.
NOT polyester rope. NOT paracord. Must use dental floss, something thin and very very loosely woven.
If you use the blue rope, the arrow will rebound off the rope and can fly backwards and hit you. Yes, this has happened.

So, dental floss plumb bob.

Stand only 2 meters away, and ONLY move sight windage, until you can hit the dental floss, 2 meters away.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> One more thing.
> 
> My scope is still as far right as possible, both on the retaining arm and via windage on the sight.
> 
> Can you think of any reason I would be so maxed out to the right?


Peep is too low. Press bow and move peep UP 2-3 millimeters.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Cumbersome or not, USE the wrist sling. With no sling, you MUST grab the bow, to prevent dropping bow on the ground.
> 
> With wrist sling, you can completely relax bow hand, so thumb muscle is as mushy as a goose down pillow.
> We want the thumb muscle as soft as possible, so the grip SINKS into thumb muscle.
> ...


I see. The sling is a part of the solution. I will use the wrist sling.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Need to check your arrow rest sideways position. Want to confirm you have arrow rest sideways position (centershot)
> adjusted so arrow on the arrow rest is DEAD parallel to a 2nd arrow, clamped to the riser wall. CLamp 2nd arrow anywhere ABOVE the arrow on the arrow rest.


Here you go.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> After you confirm that arrow rest sideways position, has arrow on the arrow rest DEAD parallel to a 2nd arrow, clamped to the riser wall...
> 
> then, do a sight windage test at 2 meters.
> 
> ...


I've got plumbers tape (PTFE) it's practically the same thing, I'll use that.

So I should only shoot my bareshaft at the tape - just like in your photos?


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Peep is too low. Press bow and move peep UP 2-3 millimeters.
> 
> View attachment 7367903
> 
> ...


Okay, I raised my peep by about 2-3mm. 
The outcome is that I can no long fully touch my nose to the string while looking square through the scope.

I can now keep my nose just off touching and be square on with the scope.

Is this what we were trying to achieve?


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

The #4,0.20 Beiter Blades I ordered three weeks ago finally arrived today.

So I've also put one of these in the rest to replace the stiffer / overly stiff #4,0.25 blade.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Okay my PTFE tape was a bit wider than dental floss and I got it first shot.

Then I twisted it up a bit to offer a thinner profile. It took four shots and a couple of windage adjustments, then I got it again.










I was making very subtle windage adjustments, just a few clicks one way or the other, and it did seem to make a difference.

Immediately after this I shot a couple of ends from 20m, but got some pretty awful grouping.

Where do we go from here Alan?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay, I raised my peep by about 2-3mm.
> The outcome is that I can no long fully touch my nose to the string while looking square through the scope.
> 
> I can now keep my nose just off touching and be square on with the scope.
> ...


The idea is to have the arm on your glasses, DEAD parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.
YOu can adjust anchor (release hand height) so string touches nose.
If you don't want to change your anchor...you can use a kisser button, that is installed to touch corner of mouth,
WHEN the arm on your glasses is parallel to the arrow.

Post new form photo, wearing glasses. TRYING to adjust your CHIN height HIGHER,
so the arm on your glasses, will be parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.

Current form photos, chin too low, when arrow is parallel.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay my PTFE tape was a bit wider than dental floss and I got it first shot.
> 
> Then I twisted it up a bit to offer a thinner profile. It took four shots and a couple of windage adjustments, then I got it again.
> 
> ...


VIdeo would be nice, post to YouTube, when shooting several ends at 20 m, or 18 m.
Tape camera phone to a ladder, so camera phone lens is at YOUR shoulder height.

Position ladder far away enough, so we can see the grass, your shoes, all of you and all of the bow in the video frame.
Set ladder square to your body, not forwards of shooting line, not behind shooting line.

Shoot minimum of three fletched arrows
and at least two bareshafts at the same bullseye...during the video.

After firing the 5 arrows, then, walk with camera phone to take video frame
of the arrow group.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> Okay my PTFE tape was a bit wider than dental floss and I got it first shot.
> 
> Then I twisted it up a bit to offer a thinner profile. It took four shots and a couple of windage adjustments, then I got it again.
> 
> ...


DO you have a wrist sling yet?
Are you using a finger sling?


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> The idea is to have the arm on your glasses, DEAD parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.
> YOu can adjust anchor (release hand height) so string touches nose.
> If you don't want to change your anchor...you can use a kisser button, that is installed to touch corner of mouth,
> WHEN the arm on your glasses is parallel to the arrow.
> ...





nuts&bolts said:


> DO you have a wrist sling yet?
> Are you using a finger sling?



I'm using a wrist sling everytime I shoot now. I still don't feel the benefit but I understand it's part of the process.

With the arrival of the Beiter #4,0.20 blades, which provide more stability during the draw, combined with my new hand position I found I can now wind the limb bolts fully down.

I'm still waiting for a bow scale and draw board in the post, but I believe this bow is set around #56 now.

The higher peep has really made shot execution more difficult. Rather than holding my nose on the string and shooting, I now ensure I'm not leaning back by putting nose on string - then lift head until I can see square through peep (but without a touch point), then shoot.

It's been a little challenging, but I believe I'm achieving the head position you were looking for.

My glasses are for reading and I can't shoot with them on.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> VIdeo would be nice, post to YouTube, when shooting several ends at 20 m, or 18 m.
> Tape camera phone to a ladder, so camera phone lens is at YOUR shoulder height.
> 
> Position ladder far away enough, so we can see the grass, your shoes, all of you and all of the bow in the video frame.
> ...


I only have one bareshaft but I did my best,

I rushed the process a bit, conscious that my wife (cameraman) has limited patients.







I did a little better when the camera was off and I slowed my process down:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> I only have one bareshaft but I did my best,
> 
> I rushed the process a bit, conscious that my wife (cameraman) has limited patients.
> 
> ...


Excellent shooting. But, not shooting at your FULL accuracy potential.

Fix the leaning backwards, and you ca cut this group is half, and start busting nocks.


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent shooting. But, not shooting at your FULL accuracy potential.
> 
> Fix the leaning backwards, and you ca cut this group is half, and start busting nocks.
> 
> View attachment 7370993


Thanks Alan, 

I'll continue to work to be completely straight up and down.

I'll also shoot a few form checking bareshafts every round.


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