# Draw length/form



## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Out of these four pictures which one appears to be the closest to the correct draw length for me?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

General rule is arrow nock should be under your eye. 4th photo seems the closest to that, but it may still be alittle short.


Chris


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## VMS (Jan 27, 2008)

#2

full draw when string is even with corner of mouth.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i would agree if his head was centered. But its forward of center line and too short of a draw. This is photo 2.










Chris


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Looking at the pic myself, #3 and #4 seem the closest for me. My draw elbow is a little low in #4.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Do you have a problem extending your bow arm wrist? Is that why you're using a very high wrist angle?


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

My wrist is not as flexible as I would like it to be but I had not considered myself as having a high wrist grip. Pictures don't lie, something else I'll have to work on. This is a pic from the opposite side but a different bow.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Enticer said:


> View attachment 7392063
> My wrist is not as flexible as I would like it to be but I had not considered myself as having a high wrist grip. Pictures don't lie, something else I'll have to work on. This is a pic from the opposite side but a different bow.


You also have a ton of tension in your bow arm forearm. You shouldn't be able to see the tendons of both your flexors and extensor muscles popping like you can. The flexors makes sense because you have to tighten them to hold the high wrist angle against the holding weight of the bow. The extensors should be getting shorter but they're tight simply because you're tightening them without thinking about it. 

I'd also imagine that you're torquing the bow a good bit by how your thumb is pointing to the right of the target. That means the bow is resting too far out on the thumb and you're having to use a lot of energy to keep the bow from bending your thumb back at you. If you get your hand deeper on the grip, let your wrist extend and put your 1st carpometacarpal joint (CMC joint) on the center of the back of the grip, you'll be able to really decrease the tension in your forearm and hand and torque the grip much less.


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## Buffalo Hunter (Jan 28, 2005)

My vote is for pic 4. But once head is shifted back just a wee bit and the grip relaxed, the DL may still be a little short?

I'll defer to Nuts and the other know more than I.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Huntinsker said:


> I'd also imagine that you're torquing the bow a good bit by how your thumb is pointing to the right of the target. That means the bow is resting too far out on the thumb and you're having to use a lot of energy to keep the bow from bending your thumb back at you. If you get your hand deeper on the grip, let your wrist extend and put your 1st carpometacarpal joint (CMC joint) on the center of the back of the grip, you'll be able to really decrease the tension in your forearm and hand and torque the grip much less.


If I put my 1st CMC joint at the center of the grip wouldn't that move the grip further out on my thumb?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> View attachment 7392063
> My wrist is not as flexible as I would like it to be but I had not considered myself as having a high wrist grip. Pictures don't lie, something else I'll have to work on. This is a pic from the opposite side but a different bow.


1) what is the issue with your range of motion for your wrist? Have you broken your wrist in the past? Do you have a titanium plate and screws in your wrist?

Work within your range of motion for your bow hand wrist.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> If I put my 1st CMC joint at the center of the grip wouldn't that move the grip further out on my thumb?


Looks like the d-loop is a bit short, cuz I don't see as much swing for your release elbow, as I would like to see.
Regardless. If you also have range of motion issues for the release shoulder, let's do a simple draw length test.





Shoulder high target. Pin a sheet of cardboard to the target. Sharpie pen cross hair. Shooting line at 10 yards.
I cannot see a sharpie pen cross hair at 10 yards, so I took a roll of duct tape, and drew a HEAVY circle.
Use a 20 yd sight pin.

Fire a bareshaft arrow. Pull it out. Label the hole.
Fire a fletched arrow. IF the draw module is the correct size for you, the two holes should be side by side.

You try.
Post a photo of your test results.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Enticer said:


> If I put my 1st CMC joint at the center of the grip wouldn't that move the grip further out on my thumb?


The 1st CMC joint is close to the middle of the heal of your hand so no it won't. It's just to the thumb side of the "valley" between your thumb pad and pinky pad on your hand. Here's where the joint is.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) what is the issue with your range of motion for your wrist? Have you broken your wrist in the past? Do you have a titanium plate and screws in your wrist?
> 
> Work within your range of motion for your bow hand wrist.


I don't really have an issue with my range of motion, just not as flexible as I once was .


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> I don't really have an issue with my range of motion, just not as flexible as I once was .


Range of motion IS flexibility. If you can, relax your wrist to match the grip angle.
More like this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If no prior wrist surgery,
if no broken wrist in the past, then allow wrist to flex back towards face this much.











chrstphr said:


> i would agree if his head was centered. But its forward of center line and too short of a draw. This is photo 2.
> View attachment 7388257
> 
> 
> ...


String will come back to corner of mouth, when he allows wrist to flex BACK towards his face.
HIgh wrist grip (flat horizontal back of hand), artificially moves string forwards of his nose.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

10 yd Bare shaft and fletched shaft.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Enticer said:


> 10 yd Bare shaft and fletched shaft.
> View attachment 7392541


I know N&B wanted you to do this little test but I'd ask you, what do you think this shows you? That your sight is off? That your grip is good or bad? That you can penetrate a piece of cardboard with an arrow at 10 yards?

Draw length should be set based on your best pin float and shooting results. NOT where a bareshaft impacts compared to fletched, especially when you have clear grip issues that will change how a bareshaft flies anyway. Don't adjust your draw length to change bareshaft flight. Find your draw length based on solid repeatable form and your best pin float then tune the bow for arrow flight using the tunable components on the bow. That way you have good arrow flight and the best chance of hitting what you're aiming at. Besides, who cares how well a bareshaft flies if you can't shoot consistently to begin with?


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Doing some paper tuning so yes my sight will need to be adjusted. I don't think my grip is as bad as those first four photos indicate, I think I was rushing to get to full draw with arrow level before the timer on my DSLR went off. Couple more pics of my grip from this morning.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Lol, not sure what the sensitive content is .


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Enticer said:


> Lol, not sure what the sensitive content is .


Grip does look better here. I had that sensitive content deal come up on a picture I posted the other day too, I think it was that x-ray picture actually, so who knows haha.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> 10 yd Bare shaft and fletched shaft.
> View attachment 7392541


Very nice. Adjust your cam sync (timing) to get the bareshaft to hit inside the FS hole
at 10 yards.


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## Johnboy60 (Mar 17, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Range of motion IS flexibility. If you can, relax your wrist to match the grip angle.
> More like this.


Yes, perfect.


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## GerSig88 (Dec 28, 2020)

Enticer said:


> Doing some paper tuning so yes my sight will need to be adjusted. I don't think my grip is as bad as those first four photos indicate, I think I was rushing to get to full draw with arrow level before the timer on my DSLR went off. Couple more pics of my grip from this morning.
> View attachment 7392581
> View attachment 7392584


Sorry to deviate topic, but what bow is this?? The riser is cool


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

GerSig88 said:


> Sorry to deviate topic, but what bow is this?? The riser is cool
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


APA Black Mamba 35.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> Very nice. Adjust your cam sync (timing) to get the bareshaft to hit inside the FS hole
> at 10 yards.


Which cam do I need to advance or slow down to bring the BS poi down?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> Which cam do I need to advance or slow down to bring the BS poi down?


Goto the top cam. Pick one cable to work with. Then, try adding 1/2 twist. See if things improve.
If not, go back to the same cable and remove 1/2 twist. Might need half a twist, might only need 1 full twist of adjustment.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Start by adding a twist to the bottom cable, meaning the one attaching to the bottom cam.

If you adjust the cables to the point of the bow feeling jumpy, because the cams are so out of sync, before the vertical bareshaft miss is fixed, you might need to reset the cam timing and adjust the nock/rest height. Don't forget about your microtune cable guard either. Putting a little pressure on a cable at the guard effectively shortens it like adding a twist to the cable. Should help with the fine tuning.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

When I start adjusting the cam timing in order to move the BS poi down, won't those adjustments also affect the fletched shaft poi?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Enticer said:


> When I start adjusting the cam timing in order to move the BS poi down, won't those adjustments also affect the fletched shaft poi?


Yes but it doesn't matter where they hit on the target, just that they eventually come together. The bareshaft will be affected much more than the fletched and once you get the bareshafts flying with no vertical or horizontal nock travel coming off the bow, they'll hit together.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

Just had to adjust the micro tune a little bit and as long as I do my part the BS and FS are impacting the same place. I need a little more windage on my sight apparently,I am at the extreme end of travel.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> Looks like the d-loop is a bit short, cuz I don't see as much swing for your release elbow, as I would like to see.


D-loop is 3/4" at the moment, how much longer should I make it?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> Just had to adjust the micro tune a little bit and as long as I do my part the BS and FS are impacting the same place. I need a little more windage on my sight apparently,I am at the extreme end of travel.
> View attachment 7394242


Assuming this is 10 yards. If so, excellent.

Now, is time to shoot 3 fletched arrows and 2 bareshafts (all 5 arrows) aimed at a spot, 20 yards / 18 meters away.
Leave all 5 arrows in the target, and take a photo.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

I did have to adjust the timing a little bit as the BS were hitting about 2" low.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> I did have to adjust the timing a little bit as the BS were hitting about 2" low.
> View attachment 7395925


Very nice. Now, go shoot 30 yards (fletched only)
and play with the arrow rest height...this is called GROUP tuning, where you play with arrow rest height,
and where you play with arrow rest sideways position (adjust in super TINY amounts) to tighten up fletched group size.


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## Enticer (Sep 6, 2005)

This was at 40m, I am a little hesitant to start moving the rest. Locked down due to covid-19 at the moment so no range time for a while.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Enticer said:


> This was at 40m, I am a little hesitant to start moving the rest. Locked down due to covid-19 at the moment so no range time for a while.
> View attachment 7398379


Very nice. Now, try 50 meters. Ideally 3 shots.


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