# 3D Archery My thoughts!



## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

yep. eliminates those "buddy" systems for certain.
official scorer needs to be impartial.

good shooting this weekend by the way! :wink:


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## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

I agree. when you have a shotgun start for some reason my groups that i have been in have always taken it a bit more seriously.

i think sometimes people don't realize it but if you ever went to a trap shoot they don't let you trickle in and do what you want, its their way or the highway.


shotgun start all the way with two different score keepers keep the pencils still sharp at the end of the day.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Archery*

I really dont understand we drive miles to compete but we dont have scoring system like most sports. 

I actually enjoy indoor shooting because we all shoot and score fair.

If we are shooting for fun why keep score?

Why is it a shotgun start is not best for everyone? 

If you do this here in my state it seems many dont come, Why? Or they shoot for fun. I personally enjoy pairing up and meeting new shooters.

I just dont think anyone should be able to score themselfs or shoot with there buddies only 

Not sure what the solution is! Open to suggestions.


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## BoBean (May 17, 2005)

I have never had any problems but we break groups as a rule. It is rare that I shoot with a group where I know everyone.


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## Northforker (Oct 11, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> I really dont understand we drive miles to compete but we dont have scoring system like most sports.
> 
> I actually enjoy indoor shooting because we all shoot and score fair.
> 
> ...


Great post DB

That is why the ASA shoots have so much more credibility than the IBO shoots. Don't get me wrong, at the pro level, I doubt much pencil whipping goes on at IBO shoots either, but at the MBR level, it's rediculous. How can three brothers and their cousin be considered a busted group. 

How about these guys at local shoots that are adding up their score cards while studying the tally sheet at the table? "Let's see. I need to add 35 points in here somewhere" 

Maybe when there is no money involved, it doesn't matter, it's still wrong.:zip:


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## sullivt (Jun 4, 2004)

Most guys do this for fun... they don't like being there at 8am... but like to have breakfast first... maybe some coffee and show up between 9 and 10 am to put in their score. I believe it you asked everyone to be their at 8 am you would have a drop in participation. Besides I consider it just practice until the shoot off where you have scorers... Just my thoughts.


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

Do all shoots have to be on saturdays then? What about church goers? What about families shooting together? What about travel times..I go to a couple shoots that are 1.5 hrs away and across a time zone, thus to make a 9am shotgun start, Im up at 5:30 am to get ready and get gone (not this napper, aint gonna happen). Anyhow, just some things to ponder. I like formal shoots also, but each has its place I think.


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## Archless (Sep 20, 2005)

> 3D Archery My thoughts!
> My biggest complaint is local honor system.
> 
> To me the shotgun start should be the only way to go for shoots. Pair the shooters up and two score keepers.
> ...


I wont shoot unless they use double scoring.I get to mad.
I work to hard at this game to be beaten with a pencil.


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

*Not sure how the shotgun start would go over but,*

it is a good deal to break up groups. My wife and I have been trying to arrive at shoots early enough to hook up with different groups. It is great to meet other shooters and whereas we have both been shooting at or near the top of our classes this year it just removes any possibility of being questioned.

The thing is that if a club is going to "bust" groups, they must do it to all groups. If money or prizes are involved I think groups MUST be broken. Same goes with bigger regional shoots like best of Midwest, Deerman, Missouri Bowhunter classic, etc.

For the little local shoots I can see where a couple buddies or families come to shoot together and should be allowed to. If someone wants a little plaque bad enough to cheat then shame on you, hope you are real proud to hang it on your wall.


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## lkmn (Feb 28, 2006)

I hate to say it but i know i've been beat by the pencil a few times, as i'm sure most of us have. I've been competing in 3-D's for about 15 years here in Montana, and I've seen alot of pencils get sharp at the end of the day. It really frustrates a guy or gal when you know you've practiced and done everything right and shot to the best of your abbility but there's still that "magical" pencil that one has to worry about at the end of the day or weekend. I do believe some kind of fair system needs to be practiced throughout but what it is I'm not sure.

All i know is that if a hunk of wood or whatever the trophy matbe means that much to them sobe it. My concious is clear at the end of the day.


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## xsmasherj (Oct 12, 2005)

why dont they just use pens...in all honesty in a competiton when anything as small as atrophy is on the line .there should be shotgun starts.Ive had it go both ways I shot in a trophy shoot last year and my partner didnt show,so i shot it alone,but at every target I shot with a group of shooters.Long story short,I shot a 280 and was one of the last guys in.The guy who shot the high score before had been waiting all day for his trophy.I beat him by 17 points he freaked out...Thats not fair He was shooting alone...blah blah blah
I asked if he wanted to have a shoot off or wanted to go through and shoot the course again.He was basically calling me a liar to my face.I told him if the trophy was that important to him he could have it...I have plenty.
What was funny is most of the guys I shot targets with through the shoot were right there,and about 15 guys vouched for me that I shot A ten or better when I was with there group.He shot with his brother and friend.
The guys putting on the shoot knew me from past shoots and relized that my score was pretty much what i shoot normally.No one had ever seen this guy before.I gave him the trophy.He wouldnt have a shoot off with me,because he won and he didnt need to prove it.
I didnt care about the trophy I cared about my name...I came out of that crap storm smelling like a daisy.


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

I'll throw my .02 cents in since this is an issue which I take pretty seriously. I can't abide by cheaters.. There is NO way around it, and in our group of guys that go to the local shoots there are a few with "questionable" scoring ethics. For example, there is one guy that during our last indoor 3d league was very inconsistent with scoring. Most nights on the 30 target course he was in the 220's, one or two nights he could hit the 270's but there was always someone there to score him and keep him honest. Mind you this is an indoor course with max. yardage of about 24 yards. More or less just spot shooting, but we were using 3d targets. He's got pretty good skills.. I'll give him that, but didn't have the consistency. Then we start outdoor, he shoots a few shoots with us and did pretty good but not good enough to place(probably 212 on a 25 target course) but then wanted to start going on days when others of us in the group couldn't go.. Or he wants to get there before the rest of us and even shot one of the tournaments by himself even though the rest of us had gotten there while he was shooting on the bags. He could have waiting, but didn't want to. Anyway, long story short (I know, too late..  ) All of a sudden, this guy who couldn't keep a consistent score indoors shooting at 20-24 yards, has turned in cards shooting 10 up on a 25 shot outdoor 3D range with yardages out to 35 yards on the last two shoots. I'm sorry, but until I see that with my own eyes.. I'm calling BS on that one. 

Now, he doesn't shoot the same class as me and it would be easy to just let it pass but I don't believe that way.. Cheating is cheating, plain and simple. The rest of us in the group have decided at the next shoot, we're all going to throw names into a hat and draw out who we'll be shooting with.. At least in our group of guys (about 10-12 of us depending). That way, there will be someone to watchdog over the questionables in the group. If they decline to do this, then it's going to be the last time they shoot with the rest of us.


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

I know there are cheaters everywhere, but just because someone is inconsistent, dont mean they cheat. Over the last year, Ive had 30 target scores w/12 rings ranging from 233 to 300.  67 point spread...um, thats me. I shot 236 (very hard course) last weekend, and 277 two weeks earlier. It happens. I do think it often correlates porportionately to how many drinks I had the saturday night before the sunday shoot. :wink:


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

KYShooter said:


> I know there are cheaters everywhere, but just because someone is inconsistent, dont mean they cheat. Over the last year, Ive had 30 target scores w/12 rings ranging from 233 to 300.  67 point spread...um, thats me. I shot 236 (very hard course) last weekend, and 277 two weeks earlier. It happens. I do think it often correlates porportionately to how many drinks I had the saturday night before the sunday shoot. :wink:


But this guy was inconsistant in a known yardage format (indoor shooting). I can see what you're saying, and I'm the same way. Outdoors, some days are better than others... My point was that I have a hard time believing someone that can't consitently shoot even or up on an indoor range at no more than 24 yards isn't magically going to go outdoors at longer unknown yardages and start shooting 10 up consistently. That just doesn't compute for me. And beside that, I know these guys. LOL!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I know for a fact*

I have shot at clubs that do shotgun starts.

Scores and winners are often different.

If someone offended by being ask to shoot with another shooter. Thats there promblem. I think most club owners know who can shoot top scores and win most classes. If your shooting by yourself then you can easily see why some would challenge your scores, Especially if you win. You shoot with my buddies and theres no love in are scores, we always betting on the side who wins.


We all know it happens in 3d and several clubs in my state are looking for solutions to make things fair for everyone. Just not sure how to go about that.

Not sure what the answers are but feel we really need to have some way to keep the playing field fair.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Have five target shoot-offs for the top five serious shooters,everyone else can either watch or go home.Set-up on a range by non-club members just before the shoot-out.


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> I have shot at clubs that do shotgun starts.
> 
> Scores and winners are often different.
> 
> ...


Our local shoots here are probably not as structured as most... But it's all the shooting we have in the local area so I'm not going to complain, the people that put them on are all great folks and they are doing a great job. But some of us in our group are looking to expand our area of shooting, and beyond our own backyard we are not known to anyone. I know that I personally am getting to a point that I want to know just how good/bad I really am. Around here, you shoot with the same people pretty much all the time and how do you tell how you stack up out there in the real world. So, shooting in groups with others that ARE local is what I want to do. There were two of us the other day that shot a course we had never been to. I told the guy running it, that if they wanted to put us with a couple of other guys that shoot there alot that we would be thrilled with that. I don't want to walk into someone else's club for the first time and possibly have the best day of my shooting career and post a score that's even or up and have anyone doubt that I shot the score I turned in. They weren't even shooting for money or throphies or anything.. But good or bad I don't want anyone doubting my score and I'm willing to shoot with anyone that will shoot with me.

I don't know what would fix all the problems, but I think having shotgun starts and busting up groups of shooters is a good place to start. Especially if there is money or whatever involved. It might take you out of your "comfort zone" if you're shooting with guys you don't know.. But isn't that what competition is all about?? You can't have your buddies holding your hand and vice/versa and if you're serious about shooting and possibly hoping to take it somewhere one day and expand beyond your local area you have to get used to shooting in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. It's just a fact of life and if you get to meet alot of cool people in the process then that's just a bonus to me.


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## BigPineyArcher (Apr 8, 2006)

Don't worry Stephan, If we can get together this weekend for the R-100 I'll be watching your pencil very closly!:wink: Just kidding! But seriosly, I know that a shotgun start would be the way to go to keep them all honest, but as I have my shoots on sunday, that would make me lose probably 50 shooters that are the after church crowd, and I would really hate to put those fine people out. We also get several that do the daily double, I know I used to do that to help put my sponsors name out there as much as possible. As far as my shoot goes, I plan on having some money shoots, and if you shoot for the money it will be mandatory shotgun start, but for those out there for fun it'll be trickle start. I know how most all of my local shooters typically score and I have some very, very good shooters at my range, and I know that we have a group of people with very good integrity, I understand what you were saying about being from out of town and nobody knowing who you were and I believe that hooking up with a few of the locals is the way to go. Oh, and by the way, sorry about the typo on the name.:embara: But we all can have our up and down days, like my shooting partner, he shot a 388 two weeks ago, and this weekend he shot a 423! I know this man well and he is of the utmost integrity. But if there is someone that can't shoot even up indoors and then heads outdoors and smokes the course I believe there could be something a little fishy going on there.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Shotgun starts are great at the national level and work well for ASA and IBO....well it would work great for IBO. However, you have to consider something about those shoots. Folks are travelling a distance to shoot an entire weekend and they have set aside that weekend for just that purpose, to shoot 3D. Whether they have taken vacation, or just travelling after work on Friday they are going for one purpose, to shoot. As such there are no other constraints on their time for that weekend as they are setting that time aside for one thing, to shoot at the designated times.

At the local level that just does not work. Folks are not setting aside the entier weekend to shoot, they are at home and have other things that require their time. Maybe it is a kids softball or soccer game, maybe it is breakfast or lunch with friends, maybe it is doing work around the house, maybe it is a church activity, who knows, but at the local shoots there are things that happen that may prevent you from being on the stake at 8am for a shotgun start. A person may have something going on first thing in the morning and later in the afternoon, but they may be able to swing by at 10am, shoot and get out to whatever else they have going on later that afternoon. Shoule I as the club president say, too bad you are screwed, shoot when we say you will shoot or don't shoot at all? How is that drawing in archers? How is that helping out the archery community in your area? At local shoots folks do not have the luxury to say, I am setting Saturday or Sunday aside just to shoot, real life happens. We need to have the flexibility to allow shooters to show up when they can and then shoot, otherwise we do nothing but hurt archery in our area.

As far as pencil pushing, cheating or whatever. We require 2 scorekeepers and still have a couple of shooters that have a reputation for pencil pushing. It happens, but there are a few things you can do to combat it. 

For example, there was a local shoot last year in sleet, rain, ice and high-winds. Some of the best ASA semi-pro, unlimited, hunter class, and Open A shooters turned in scorecards and the highest of the bunch was a 6 up on 20 targets. Towards the end of the day a shooter came in with a 26 up, when his normal score was around 30 down. Granted any dog can have his day, but...........we now send club members out with his group everytime he shoots, or I will follow along closely and keep a score with binos (estimated but it still prevents blatant pencil pushing). Since then he has not posted a big score again.

The second thing we do is require 2 scorecards to be kept. Even then, it does not and will not prevent all pencil pushing if someone wants to win that badly. However, it keeps it to a minimum.

The third thing is we require every group to have a minimum of 3 adult class shooters in every group.

The last thing we do is we do not post scores until late, and then we do not show the scores to the competitors until all scores are in. If someone wants to know where they stand in order to decide if they should wait for a trophy we tell them where they stand and how many shooters are still out in their class, but we do not tell them what scores are leading. Additionally, we will not even tell anyone where they stand until after they have turned in a scorecard. We go so far in this that we will not even record the first score in the book until after the cut-off for sign up, that prevents folks from walking up at 3 pm (the cut-off time after daylight savings starts) and seeing what score they may need to win.

Personally, at least in our area, I do not find pencil pushing to be rampant. What I have found, shooting with various different groups, is the large disparity in scoring. Scoring differences tends to be the biggest area where scores are pushed so to speak. I have seen local guys say "that is close enough" or "it is pushing/pulling the line" or whatever. Ideally you would have a range official on every single target to score every arrow for that target, but I do not know of any clubs that have enough members or volunteers to be able to do that, especially since the members and officers would also like to be able to shoot their own club courses also. 

In all honesty, in every class we have I can give the 4 or 5 guys that will have a serious chance of winning at every one of our shoots. These same guys are in the running at every ASA shoot that they attend also, so they are good shooters. On occassion you get one shooter that no one knows that turns in a scorecard that gets everyone scratching their head, but it is a small percentage here.


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## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

I'm I guess shocked. I know I shouldn't be but ....

I can't imagine cheating at golf, archery, or monopoly. 

If it's on the line and questionable it's the lower score for me. I was aiming over there, and hit over here I missed. Seems simple.

For bigger club shoots why not have scorers assigned to the targets? Range ref's to keep things moving?


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Selil said:


> For bigger club shoots why not have scorers assigned to the targets? Range ref's to keep things moving?


I briefly mentioned that above. Clubs just don't have the volunteers to do that. It would take a minimum of 20 folks that would volunteer to do the scoring, and then when would they get to shoot? I can't get 8 guys to show up to help setup a course, let alone 20 to be scorekeepers. It would be great, but I just don't know of any clubs that could do that.


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## 3dshooter80 (Mar 13, 2006)

*it makes me sick...*

As someone that has been the victim of pencil whipping very recently, this topic greatly upsets me. I won't go into the whole story, but a guy that I shoot against and that has "questionable" scoring ethics recently walked off the course bragging about his score and then waited to turn in his score card until after I had turned in mine and some of his buddies told him what I shot. Guess what, the score he bragged about and what he turned in were two different numbers. 
I suggest that all score cards be collected at the last target, not at the registration booth. By collecting the score cards at the last target, this type of "let's see what I need to win" would be avoided. Also, depending on how the course is set up, the person or persons that are collecting the score cards would be able to monitor the last target or group of targets which I believe is where most of this pencil pushing takes place. 
Additionally, I beleive that if enough people agree, the local organization should be allowed to ban someone from competition. The same should be true for someone that behaves in an unsportsmanlike or even worse, an unsafe manner. 
And you know what makes this really bad, I noticed that a buddy of mine stopped bringing his son to the shoots and when I asked him about it, he said that is was because his son didn't like to be around this shady character and listen to the way he talks and the way he behaves his self. It is bad that a 12 year old wouldn't want to shoot a bow because of the way a grown man behaves. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

BigPineyArcher said:


> Don't worry Stephan, If we can get together this weekend for the R-100 I'll be watching your pencil very closly!:wink: Just kidding!


Shayne, you won't have to worry about watching my pencil.. I've already got my score cards filled out. :tongue: I'm guessing I'll be in the top five somewhere..

Whoops, did I say that out loud?? :sorry: 

hehehehehe

Turning cards in at the last target is a great idea, I think. Also, not giving out scores is another one. What about scorecards that make you punch out the score you shot.. Like with a hole punch of some kind or maybe even your pen. That way, if two scores are punched you get the lower score and scores can't be "erased".. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I make a mistake while writing down a score, as I'm usually the one holding the cards (I'm the only one with a holder.. LOL!) and when there are 4 shooters in a group sometimes I'll get on the wrong line or even the wrong card. But with a hole punching method you would have to be really careful because I'd hate for someone to lose points because I wasn't paying attention.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

oh man what about hanging chads then ... lmbo..


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

archerdad said:


> oh man what about hanging chads then ... lmbo..


HA!! You know, that thought actually crossed my mind when I was writing that.. 

But say you use the same cards they put out now, but just have to punch the score instead of write it.. Most of the cards I see around here are boxes lined up under the score, you just put an "X" or checkmark in the box for the score... Just take your pen, and punch the correct box instead of putting in the "X".. 

Just a thought..


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Whats sad*

Most the clubs know who the guys are that are pencil whipping and winning,

Im proud to say clubs around my area are taking steps to avoid this.

Most know who these guys are and if they could shoot they would step up and shoot with the top shooters in there class and prove they can score with them.


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## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

Is there any rule in NAA, IBO, ASA, NFAA about using a pen instead of a pencil? I'll just start using a pen at every shoot. Others can or can't.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I had no idea...until joining AT.. that every 3D wasn't a "shotgun" start. It's very important to me to have a safety meeting, a time for announcements, and a time to mingle before we all START AT THE SAME TIME. In Alaska, every 3D is a shotgun start. I travel 120 miles for a 30 target shoot and I have no problem getting there by the 9 or 10 am start time even with icy roads (we shoot in winter) I don't think a liberal start time would change anything and it certainly would put an undo load on the poor guys trying to clean up the range afterwards. Another thing about shotgun starts is that everyone pretty much finishes at the same time and most of them hang around to help clean up.

We double score and I have never caught a guy cheating, or even had a inclination that anyone was doing so.


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## Archer Elaine (Feb 16, 2004)

Since sending score keepers is sometimes hard , I think double scoring is great! But if that is not done, then shooting with strangers should be mandatory. Besides, it really gives you a chance to meet new people and see all different types of shooting. It's also a great opportunity to learn things from fellow archers....


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## BlackKnight81 (Jul 25, 2004)

I can see your point DB. The only problem is that most people who come to club shoots are the weekend warrior. That is how it is out here in Colorado anyways. We do have a fun division but 9 time out of 10 these people want to see if they can win a trophy. It is sad that we can't just trust them to write down the real score and not beat us with their pencils. I know around here that virtualy all of us competetion shooters shoot with our competetion. There is a shotgun start for the money class though. If you aren't there by the set time you don't get to shoot in the money class. I would like to see shotgun start implemented here here for all the calsses, but with so many Johny Shoots Twice A Year's out there, there is just no way it would work.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I vowed last year that when I saw a new guy or a loaner I would invite him or her to shoot with myself or my father and I. 

I go to local shoots frequently by myself. I've stood around for over an hour waiting to shoot with someone. I have had pairs of shooters say they were waiting for some others and then in a few moments they were on the course shooting.

Sunday I invited 2 guys that had never shot a 3D course before to shoot with my father and I. They were hanging around the registration desk asking questions about how to score and where to start. They were fine guys and good shots. We all had a good time and are going to meet up for some shoots.

If either one stick with it they will be way above average BHFS shooters.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Most agree shotgun starts is the best*

You get paired up with new shooters and get to meet new people.

Its diffiantly the best way to have a shoot Doug.

Doug you guys up there are doing it right.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

I hate Left Coast starts....


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

All our shoots are shotgun starts, I don't like busted groups because my friends and I just have to much fun ( of course I've only placed twice in 7-8 years ) and at our big shoot of the year the final day is top flighted and everyone in the top flight starts at 0.

At our smaller shoots if somebody wants the little trophy enough to cheat they really are pretty pathetic so maybe it will make them a little happier


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

Well the shoots I go to are all honor rule scoring. With the exception of one I went to in Oshkosh. Indoor 3-d shoot out to 45 yards. It was awesome.... anyways I wish they had some shoots that others would score for you. I always use a marker to keep my score. I don't care if its legal or not lol I shoot what I shoot and that's all there is to it. Now I have at times not known where to shoot on an animal. Granted I know the general area but I like to make it fun with the people I shoot with. And maybe showboat a lilbit. Sometimes it works....lol sometimes it backfires!! I simply pick a spot (usually the eye) and tell whoever I'm shootin with what I am aiming at. After they are done rubbin their jaw from me actually hittin the eye or holdin their gut from laughin so hard from me missing, they expect me to take a ten or twelve and carry on. BS I picked the spot. It still wasn't where it needed to be. So I take my 5 or 0 (along with lookin for my damn arrow) and carry on. I've only won a few trophies from the local shoots the past two years and I'm A-OK with that! I really just enjoy gettin my buddies out there and watchin em have a great time. Can't seem to find many women at them shoots though....speakin of which.... hey Archery Elaine!?!?!? Got any single friends?? :wink:


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I've never felt like it is worth cheating! The only one that gets cheated for sure is you...if you do it! It just ain't worth it...
Plus I am always there just to beat myself if I win or place that's cool! It is all fun to me. If I took it that serious I may never go to another shoot...It's sort of like fighting...There's always someone who can kick your butt somewhere...
Shoot your best and have fun compete with yourself if you win....Hey that's great! Just my approach:wink:


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

I can see it both ways. Hard to get newbies shooting with strangers and the time constraints. I like meeting new folks and feel I actually play, shoot better when there's added pressure golf or bow. Cheater's shouldn't sleep at night!


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## Top-Pin (Apr 5, 2006)

I just brought this up with my archery club. I know for a fact of some of the place shooters doing some funny stuff on the course that I've witnessed. 

So I bring up that on our 2 day shoots the top 10 shooters plus ties on Saturday get flighted for sunday 2 groups of 5+. It is the only way to solve the sharp pencils and strange rules that some people shoot by that lets them beat the rest of the crowd. Sure you might get them sharpening Saturday but who wants to look like a idiot Sunday then? 
My club opposed it saying there were to many families that were there to just have a good time shooting etc. and wouldnt want to be flighted on Sunday. I said fine let them shoot but no trophies to anyone thats not flighted and that the top 10 shooters werent out there with there kids as they take it too seriously. They still argued. 


During my heated argument with the club officers a shooter who shoots with our local winner starts spouting about certain targets at shoots and what they've had to do to see where to shoot. He talked about how 1 of them walked up to a turkey target and physically pointed out to his buddy where the 10 ring was cause it was so shot out. Hmm am I the only one that see's a problem with this? Then they mentioned a black bear that was in the shadows and you couldnt even see the lines and how they had shot for where they thought the 10 ring was and both ended up taking 5's. Hmmm I'm like well theres your proof of why you have to flight the top 10. First off who in the hell would let anyone walk up to a target and let them point out exactly where to shoot it, and secondly the 5 he said they had to take on the bear. Well it never ended up on the winners score card cause he shot a 398 out of 410. (40 targets 10/8/5 scoring with 1 target scoring 20/10/0) Umm the math dont add up as a 398 is impossible with a 5.*unless he shot 2 fives and one 8..(i doubt that) I've since given up on believing any of the top scores at the shoots around here. Its pathetic when you have someone that has won 6 of the 8 local shoots and his buddy tells the storys like that. By the way, they only shoot together. 
So if you want to keep it fair. Flight the top 10 for Sunday its the only way you could trust atleast 50% of the score.


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## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

Top-Pin said:


> My club opposed it saying there were to many families that were there to just have a good time shooting etc. and wouldnt want to be flighted on Sunday. I said fine let them shoot but no trophies to anyone thats not flighted and that the top 10 shooters werent out there with there kids as they take it too seriously. They still argued.



Some of what you wrote was interesting and I agreed with, but I think blocking families from trophies is a bit harsh. I especially think you are totally wrong about _"that the top 10 shooters werent out there with there kids as they take it too seriously"_. I shoot with my kiddos and wife. Saying I'm not a serious shooter because I shoot with my family pretty much pisses me off. You're saying I can't be a good shooter because I have kids? Does this make sense to ANYBODY ELSE?

So, is that I have to be a total jerk to be in the top 10?
or
I've got to be so focused I ignore my family to be in the top 10?
or
Competition and family are totally seperate never shall they exist in one person?
or
My kids in no way shape or form can be in the top 10 because they shot with their parents?
or
Only a certain _class_ of shooter can be in the top 10?


Yeah, I'm a bit sensitive to the talk that pops up saying families shouldn't be considered competitors along side the bachelors of archery.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*There often two types of shooters at shoots*

Serious die hard practice all the time. They come to compete to wwin


Then theres the hunter or average guy that just basicly shoots for fun but is competitive.


I really think the top class shooters should be a shotgun start. Maybe they start at 9:00am and 1:00am both days. Im saying place the top pin shooters class and freestyle together at these times.

If you want to have a B class maybe let them trickle start.

I do know when we have shotgun starts it really shows the scores are lower and on average many struggle on these shoots. Tough call because many dont want to show up and shoot at any given time.

I just want to know I had a fair playing field.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Serious die hard practice all the time. They come to compete to wwin
> 
> 
> Then theres the hunter or average guy that just basicly shoots for fun but is competitive.
> ...


Clubs here have tried shotgun starts, and attendance dropped off significantly. I am not going to cater to a few that worry that they may not be on a level playing few and drive away the majority that are out to have fun. If you think someone is pencil whipping you shoot with them. It is not a big problem in this area.


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Here's my take. It doesn't matter what game you play there will always be those that cheat. I like many of you have had the stuffin pencil wipped out of me on more than one occassion. However, I really don't think a shotgun start will be do-able at the local level. Currently our clubs largest obstacle is getting enough of our members to volunteer to run events due to the fact that everyone has so many obligations these days. To run a shoot that was really structured would be difficult. The next largest obstacle is dwindling participation. Now don't get me wrong we do fairly well at drawing a crowd but just in case you guys haven't noticed 3D isn't exactly a thriving and growing sport in the skeme of things. Most all clubs rely on repeat customers from the small hunter/archer community. I remember a time when it was growing and somewhat more popular in my area and we could draw 100 plus shooters to a Sunday shoot. In my opinion what happened was that it got too complicated, too serious, and we added too many classes. The serious competitors (myself included), were responsible for driving away many of the recreational or practice shooters without really realizing it. We did so because it got to be too darn competitive, to the point that it became all business and no fun. Our courses became more and more challenging in that only the serious could achieve at a high level which discouraged many of the average joe bowhunters since they regarded themselves as simply payback money donators. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, let me clarify that I'm all about taking my shooting serious. My personal values often leads me to want to say to many, "If your tired of losing maybe you ought to take it more serious, buck up, put in your time and get better!" Realistically, it ain't gonna happen for the majority so we have to weigh out what we really want to achieve as local archery clubs. Do we want to cater to a small group of serious 3D enthusiasts and risk going bankrupt or do we apeal to all kinds of archers/hunters and generate enough revenue to stay in business. This year our club made the decision to really cater to the average joe bowhunter while still providing a competitive course for those that take it much more serious. So far we have been successful. My main point in all of this is that local shoots need to be viewed as opportunity for practice for the majors. Score to me is just not that important at local shoots other than I want to shoot consistant and maintain my average or better since that is what I will expect at the larger contests. Besides, I never understood what the fuss was over the $20-$30 paybacks at most local shoots. I mean it ain't like anyone is depending on that for the rent or groceries. Too often I see too many guys that are their own heros when actually they are nothing more than average at best. They soon find out when they shoot with a group of what they believe are their own peers at a big shoots. Guys to keep the clubs open in this country we need to cater to all kinds of shooters. We need to make participation simple at the local level. The more rules and guidelines you place on the locals, the less participation we will have. Use it as practice, take it serious personally but not publically, and take advantage of opportunities to be stewards of the sport.


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## GeoMike (Mar 17, 2006)

I don't know that there's an easy answer when you have people with so many different ideas on why they are there. 

When you have one event that encompasses serious experts, casual shooters, people wanting to stay sharp until hunting season rolls around and newbies just starting out it's hard to deal with issues like this without ruining it for someone.

All of the club shoots here are on Sunday. We're part of the after church crowd mentioned earlier. We also have to work around soccer/softball/football/birthday parties/yard work/etc. on weekends, so shotgun starts won't work for us.
I like the idea of shooting with people I don't know, but I'm not excited about walking up to lot's of people asking if they'll shoot with me. I go with my 11 yr old son, and he's not quite comfortable with going out with strangers.
I know there's people that wouldn't want to go with a kid too.

He has to get over that soon though. The simple fact is that my son is good. 
The reason is that he's been through three 6 week JOAD courses and 2 one day events with good coaches, but no one knows that.
I've never been able to beat him. He's won or placed 2nd in the 11-15 yr. old class 3 times in a row now. I'm starting to see the eyebrows go up when his score gets posted. We'll have to get someone to go with us soon or we'll get the grumbling soon.

The big question here is what can be done about it. I don't see any easy answers that don't cause problems for someone.

Kind of sad that we need to worry about this.


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## kbotta (Feb 9, 2006)

Got a group of about 5-9 guys that go around here every-other weekend. We just go and shoot against "eachother". Don't really care if there is a trophey or not. We shoot for hot dogs:tongue: 
The one's we shoot are all honor system's, and I keep score every time we go - someone else rotates to pull arrows. Works nice. someone else could keep score if they wanted...But I'm the yankee (odd man out) 

We just love to shoot, and try to out-do our last score (and win the hot dogs..). Bunch of guys just having fun...

Kev


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

The root of much of the problem in 3D archery is the unrealistic (for many) belief that if they win a bunch of shoots that the bow and archery equipment manufactures will come beat their doors down to give them a sponsership. Many long to be recognized as a member of XYZ's prostaff. They dream of the big break that will take them out of the trenches of their day jobs and put them on the road to fame and fortune. You guys know the folks I'm talking about. You've seen them or shot with them. These guys are so serious about their game they can't converse much less cut up on the course.
The same guys that blame their poor results on the noise, the group they shot with or their equipment. Some of these dudes will sell their mamas to win. 

I have told this story one time before but its a good example for the topic at hand. One time at an ASA Shoot back a few years ago I shot with a group of the most tight arsed fellas I ever seen but one young guy in the group was really a class act. Upon meeting at the stake just before 8:00 am the young guy previously mentioned wasted no time explaining how good he was and how he was going to mop up the course and us along with it. Real choice way to make friends wouldn't ya say. Well anyway, his Daddy is there to spectate and to share in the trash talk. We start the shoot and I'm doing fairly well and the young guy is hanging in but not performing nearly as well as he talked, go figure? About target 12 he starts the arguing with the arrow caller over 12 lines and soon is throwing a fit over an out 8 that was a good 1/4" low of the twelve. He finally calms a bit but continues to cry to his Daddy. Then around target 15 we go to pull arrows on a considerably long shot. We return and shoot the next target, a modest mid 30's yarder and I all of a sudden hit way high. I'm not talking 2-3 yards. I'm talking aim at the twelve and hit the 8 line high. I shake it off and go to the next. Again, way high. So I make a compensation on 18 and stay in the 10. We fininish and I'm 6 up for the day. That evening, I find that the scope is way out of wack, level is off and a mess. I fix it and get it all back together. Then on Sunday morning I'm at the practice animal range getting in some practice. On to scene enters the young guy and his Daddy. He asks to join me and I say okay. 5 targets latter I'm 5 for 5 on the 12 rings and the young guy has already shot a nickle. We shoot another and go pull. We come back and shoot the next and I'm a high 8. Then it dawns on me, Daddy is running interference for the kid, he's screwing with my equipment while we pull. So I call him out. I say hey "Daddy", if you as so much as look at my rig again, I'm gonna let you find out what it tastes like because I plan to bust your teeth with it. He says , "What do you mean?" I tell him that I have figured out their game and I won't be a sucker to it any longer. I also said that I would alert the range officials and all of the shooters in the group once we get to the course for the noon shoot. The guys grumbled, left and I went back to the truck to straighen out my equipment once again. Later on the course, the young guy talked to know one and his daddy did not stay to watch. Just to teach the kid a valuable lesson, I spanked his butt, ruined 3 of his shafts, and made sure to tell him prior to leaving the course, that he should work harder to win legally and also that he should keep his mouth shut and let people think he was an idiot instead of opening it and removing all doubt. Just an example of what is sometimes wrong with 3D. Too many wannabees trying to win at all cost for their ego and or a bow deal.


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

SpotShy said:


> I have told this story one time before but its a good example for the topic at hand. One time at an ASA Shoot back a few years ago I shot with a group of the most tight arsed fellas I ever seen but one young guy in the group was really a class act. Upon meeting at the stake just before 8:00 am the young guy previously mentioned wasted no time explaining how good he was and how he was going to mop up the course and us along with it. Real choice way to make friends wouldn't ya say. Well anyway, his Daddy is there to spectate and to share in the trash talk.


First off, before I comment.. I just want to say this is NOT a dig on people from Kansas.. :tongue: 

BUT...

This guy wasn't from Kansas by any chance, was he? Sounds an aweful lot like a guy and his dad I ran into at an ASA stage shoot here last year in Arkansas... IIRC, they were from Kansas or so I was told. Didn't get to shoot with them, but was on the line shooting at the practice bags after turning in our cards. I heard nothing about anyone messing with anyone elses equipment so I can't say anything about the guy's integrity, but this guy seemed awefully high on himself and daddy was right there blowin' sunshine up his toot.


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## Top-Pin (Apr 5, 2006)

Selil said:


> I especially think you are totally wrong about _"that the top 10 shooters werent out there with there kids as they take it too seriously"_. I shoot with my kiddos and wife. Saying I'm not a serious shooter because I shoot with my family pretty much pisses me off. You're saying I can't be a good shooter because I have kids? Does this make sense to ANYBODY ELSE?
> ............................................................
> Yeah, I'm a bit sensitive to the talk that pops up saying families shouldn't be considered competitors along side the bachelors of archery.



I did not mean it at all that way. What I meant at the local shoots here the top ten shooters in this area are so serious and competitive that they stay to themsleves and dont have family members tagging along, kids etc. 

Yes you can be a serious shooter with your wife and kids with you, yes you can be a top shooter with your wife and kids with you, anyone can be a top shooter shooting with whoever, what I meant was our local shoots 99% of the top 10 guys do not have there wife and kids with them. There dead serious about this sport wearing there sponsored clothing etc. and taking the time and effort to be shooting top in there class. I'd compare it to pro golf, nobody could compete with anyone on the pro tour if he was golfing a round with his wife and kids and the rest werent.... There's just no way you could compete like that. My area seems to have this pro elite shooters at our shoots. If you want to compete with these boys you'd better be shooting 410+ on a 40 target course using a 10/8/5 scoring with 2 targets scoring 20/10.. 420 gross. The last shoot I shot a 389/420 and was 17th. No where near the big boys.

But during my arguing I did take into account about how the family shooter who was unwilling to get flighted cause his family or friends was more important then being flighted. I finally tried to suggest a pro class then. A $1 or $5.00 extra to register with 100% payback. To sign up all you had to do was agree to be willing to be flighted on sunday if you were in the top 10 saturday. This way whoever wanted to shoot for the money had to agree to shoot flighted on day 2 and those who wanted to shoot for fun or trophies just didnt pay to enter the pro class..... Seemed very simple to me. They still shot me down saying they didnt want the extra work with another class. 

I gave up at that point and just have decided that I wished the ASA or IBO had alot more shoots in the pacific northwest..........


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## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

Top-Pin said:


> I did not mean it at all that way. What I meant at the local shoots here the top ten shooters in this area are so serious and competitive that they stay to themsleves and dont have family members tagging along, kids etc.



Thank you that makes sense to me.

I had a whole littany of people under the age of 18 who have been winning competitions and beating everybody older than themselves I was going to use as examples of competitors. I was going to talk about my son who as he calms down and shoots more is becoming a pretty darn good archer. Up until yesterday when he broke his wrist. It'll be a few weeks until he shoots again  

By the way thank you very much for answering my concerns and carrying this forward. I understand much more about what you're going through and have a lot of respect for anybody trying to work towards a postive solution especially in the face of others negativity. Thanks again.


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## heilman181 (Mar 24, 2006)

*It's all about the HONESTY!*

I shoot every weekend with my brother and friends. First of all we are pretty cut throat. "If you in you are in, if you are out you are out!" If you cannot handle it stay home! Even though we are competing against everyone else in the class, we are mainly just competing within our group. I look at it this way. We are not shooting for money! If you want to pay $20 to shoot and need to cheat to win an $8 trophy, HANG IT UP! Just go to a trophy shop and have them made, save your self some time, money, gasoline and aggravation!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Not sad at all*



GeoMike said:


> I don't know that there's an easy answer when you have people with so many different ideas on why they are there.
> 
> When you have one event that encompasses serious experts, casual shooters, people wanting to stay sharp until hunting season rolls around and newbies just starting out it's hard to deal with issues like this without ruining it for someone.
> 
> ...


I would be more than proud to have my son shoot aginst the compititon if he that good. Nathan Brooks did at a young age and look at him now.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

My father and I shoot together frequently.
I now will wait as long as it takes to shoot with others.
I know what it's like to hang around at club shoots and not be invited to shoot or plain turned down by a group of 2. I've had 2 or 3 club members just walk onto to the course after blowing me off.
My father and I now shoot "practice" rounds if we can't pull a 3rd person to shoot with us. Which is pretty silly when a group of 2 is following.

This past Sunday I shot in a club shoot/ASA qualifier. At the registration table I invited two new guys that did not know each other and had never shot 3d before to shoot with my father and I. We all shot from the same Hunter stake but they paid the practice round price. They were great guys that shot well and they scored my arrows. They were very nervous but I just told them it is either touching the line or it's not, no big deal, just call it.

By the way, one of the guys had been hanging around the registration table almost an hour waiting for a shooting partner.
Now when I register, I tell them at the table that I'm looking for shooting partners and to send anyone over to where I'm warming up. Youngsters are a plus!!


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Kstigall, 

I can relate. I shoot with my Dad and we too welcome folks into our group. We do let them know though that we are there for fun, enjoyment, and to work on our game. We take our time as well so if they are in a hurry than they should chose others to shoot with. I have witnessed and have been in groups with guys that would blow people off, especially novices. I have heard the comment, "I ain't gonna spend the whole day looking for somebody's arrows!" First of all I think this attitude sucks. I have been known to leave these groups and join the novice. Hey we all had to start somewhere and we all know that we need more people to get envolved in 3D.

Most everything we discussed in this thread exists in every sport and has nothing to do with sport itself but with people. In my opinion on average 3D shooters are some of the best people in the world. I have had bad experiences but they are relatively few. Some of my dearest friendships have been made on the 3D range. Like anything else there will be the bad apples, it is up to us to determine wether or not we allow them to spoil the whole bunch.


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## LightSpeed (Sep 8, 2004)

What about having one scorer that isnt shooting, stand by the shooting pegs as the shooters take their shots. He then goes and scores all arrows in pen & the shooters then move on to the next target & another scorer.[one scorer stands at the same target all day]That way we can shoot with our freinds or whoever we want and no one can cheat.[Theirs no reason this cant happen at all major shoots]


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

LightSpeed said:


> What about having one scorer that isnt shooting, stand by the shooting pegs as the shooters take their shots. He then goes and scores all arrows in pen & the shooters then move on to the next target & another scorer.[one scorer stands at the same target all day]That way we can shoot with our freinds or whoever we want and no one can cheat.[Theirs no reason this cant happen at all major shoots]


This would work, however, around here we cant get more than four or five people who are willing to donate a week-end to set up and work a tournyment let alone 28-30 people to stand in the woods and score. Here in Wisconsin after just one day the scorers would be a dry sack of bones and the skeeters would be the only happy critters left in the woods come night fall.


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## Northforker (Oct 11, 2004)

LightSpeed said:


> What about having one scorer that isnt shooting, stand by the shooting pegs as the shooters take their shots. He then goes and scores all arrows in pen & the shooters then move on to the next target & another scorer.[one scorer stands at the same target all day]That way we can shoot with our freinds or whoever we want and no one can cheat.[Theirs no reason this cant happen at all major shoots]


At the ASA shoot in Oak Ridge, TN this weekend, there were 12 ranges with 20 targets on each range, at times, all ranges were being shot simultaneously, that would be 240 VOLUNTEER scorers?

And think about the disputes coming from shooters about inexperienced volunteers that didn't score their arrow correctly, at least in their view?

BTW, the way ASA uses broken groups, shotgun starts, and double scoring, I have VERY high confidence in the scores at those shoots.


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## BlueRidge (Dec 12, 2005)

I think the shotgun starts would be good for the money classes but too inconvenient for everyone else. It would hurt the attendance of families and others that just shoot for fun.

Most of the time I shoot with my wife and son but when they don't want to go I will go by myself. I to have been turned down when I asked to shoot with groups of 2 guys. Here is the what always gets me, I have never been turned down by factory sponsored shooters. It's always the 2 or 3 buddies shooting hunter class that don't want someone else along.

Back to the point of the thread, what I have seen that causes the biggest difference in scores is not pencil whipping but how the arrows are scored before they are pulled. You would think it's simple, it's either in or out. But I have seen a lot of factory guys that are very liberal in scoring the arrows. If it's close to or bending the line they count it. Others are just as conservative, if it's not clearly cutting the line they won't take it. I feel that this is something that needs to be made clearer and standardized. It's unreasonable to expect a club to get enough volunteers to do all the scoring. Maybe post some pictures or drawings of whats in and whats out at sign in.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

kbotta said:


> Got a group of about 5-9 guys that go around here every-other weekend. We just go and shoot against "eachother". Don't really care if there is a trophey or not. We shoot for hot dogs:tongue:
> The one's we shoot are all honor system's, and I keep score every time we go - someone else rotates to pull arrows. Works nice. someone else could keep score if they wanted...But I'm the yankee (odd man out)
> 
> We just love to shoot, and try to out-do our last score (and win the hot dogs..). Bunch of guys just having fun...
> ...


That's what we do shoot for hotdogs or hamburgers...it's all in fun and we shoot nearly every wkend. somewhere. I generally keep score cause I don't like pulling arrows. My scores are very consistent including ASA's...cause we do keep it honest....
reylamb has it...We just don't have that problem very often around here!


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## arkhotrock (May 13, 2005)

*let them cheat*

if someone has to cheat they don't see the big picture. it gives them a false sense of performance. they have in their little minds that everyone is doing some sort of cheating or not calling the lines tite. this gives me an advantage i could care less of winning local shoots if i can hang in the big ones asa, ibo and my state shoot. because when the big event comes around i know that the extra work will pay off and that when people are watching the cheaters will fall short. 

As for shooting with my buddies i usually don't have the concentration that i have when i shoot with someone new. the most fun i have is when i can stroke a really good day and they get to witness it.


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## jimposten (May 17, 2006)

I shoot local 3d shoots to compete against myself, I dont even pay attention to the group. I want to better my score from the last weeks. There is always going to be someone who can out shoot you (Or at least fluff there scorecard enough) to end up with a higher score.

as for a money, or trophie shoot, I want the groups to be mixed, to keep everyone honest. The same thing hapens whith golf, I have a golf buddy who always skims off a few strokes, I say why bother, what do you get from saying you finnished better in a shoot than what you really did? 

Sooner or later, your going to have to put your money where your mouth is , and if you cant shoot like you say you can... People will know your a bluffer.


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## Jack (Dec 11, 2002)

*Competition*

Competition 

My first experience with my first and only shotgun start wasn’t too good. I was paired with three people that were shooting in different classes from mine. When I compete I want to shoot against somebody in my class, at least one. I need somebody that’s going to get me fired up, that’s competition. If I only had one person in that class it would have been good. Shotgun is great when it is competitive. Could you imagine having loud speaker or score boards you could hear or see each other scores All other sports you can see where you stand.:darkbeer:


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## Shaman (Jun 19, 2005)

reylamb said:


> At the local level that just does not work. Folks are not setting aside the entier weekend to shoot, they are at home and have other things that require their time. Maybe it is a kids softball or soccer game, maybe it is breakfast or lunch with friends, maybe it is doing work around the house, maybe it is a church activity, who knows, but at the local shoots there are things that happen that may prevent you from being on the stake at 8am for a shotgun start.


TOO TRUE.
I attended my first shoot for score (charity), this past weekend.
I made a special trip and had to deal with late wives, and fussy kids before getting out the door.

Finally I made it to the shoot with my Dad and Bro and we went as a 3 group.
We had people in front and behind us watching us shoot, just like we watched the others shoot.

In the end, we posted #2, #3, and #4 for all shooters in our class at the time that we checked out.. At the scorers table we got a couple funny looks as we passed some of the people watching the books. UNTIL, a few of the regulars who have shot with my Dad and Bro on an ongoing basis casually commented, "Well, it looks like good scores run in the family.. nice to meet you.", to me.

While some could try and accuse us of family boosting, it was nice that my Dad and Bro were known and the guys shooting before and after also commented on watching is shoot and being impressed.

It also probably helped that I was able to whip out my camera and show a couple pictures. :wink: See Pics Here.


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## cheeseman1 (May 10, 2006)

*I have to side with ky shooter*

I'm just speaking from my experience, my group has shot at least 25 shoots this year with the closest shoot about 45 minutes, furthest that we shoot 2 hours. I have never seen a shotgun start in ky, and have never seen anyone breaking up groups. I also know that every shoot I see the same guys competing pretty much at the same stakes. I also talk alot to the range owners and pay attention alot to who wins and what the scores are. We also have a local archery magazine called KY archer that tells alot of the winners. I have to say it seems in ky you seem to know when someone is cheating because most people shooting are not cutting anyone any slack especially if they shoot with their group. It also seems that when you think someone is cheating around here word spreads fast and people will check you out. I know anytime anyone could do anything but I feel pretty good about the folks that shoot in the ky state they are just darn tough shooters. I don't mean better than any other state but it seems they dont have to worry about much cheatin. we can't afford them there golden pens.:wink:


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## EASTON94 (Jan 25, 2003)

I honestly did not read all the posts...but. I can see this both ways as I have been on both sides in that I have been ultra serious about it, and also have gone out with 4 or 5 buddies that I want to shoot with just to cut up and have some fun. 

I am thinking that if you see issues with a couple guys, or a group of guys, have some people available as club members to jump in those groups. Don't give them a choice, just say hey guys I want to shoot a round I am gonna jump in with you, you should be able to tell pretty quickly whos working the pencil. 

As far as the shotgun start goes, you lose my attendance if that happens, I have a couple that I shoot with most of the time and we have a blast shooting together. There are many things clubs can do to make these things better, but most of them don't want to rock the boat. To me if you have complaints about someone, and you say hey I'm gonna shoot with you today, if they ARE that good then they should have absolutely no problem with it....THEN you can tell everyone hey, this guy is just flat kickin your tail!! Easton94


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Several have there own ranges here*

We have decided to just show up with most of are friends who are pros and compete. We pay the entrys and shoot. We know the scores are honest.
Best practice for the larger shoots. 

Shotgun starts actually are the only way to make the shoots fair. But if yur in it for fun and not for the compitition trickle starts work for you.

If your out there shooting with your buddy and winning, then folks will talk, happens all the time.:wink:


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## EASTON94 (Jan 25, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> We have decided to just show up with most of are friends who are pros and compete. We pay the entrys and shoot. We know the scores are honest.
> Best practice for the larger shoots.
> 
> Shotgun starts actually are the only way to make the shoots fair. But if yur in it for fun and not for the compitition trickle starts work for you.
> ...


That is what I am saying, if you mix a club member in with those guys that shoot with buddies you put a stop to that talk. It has been my experience that pencil whippers are addicts and do it everywhere, if there is a question put an official with em, if they shoot 50 points lower its pretty obvious whats going on!! Easton94


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## Whitefeather (Jul 27, 2003)

huntelk said:


> If someone wants a little plaque bad enough to cheat then shame on you, hope you are real proud to hang it on your wall.


How about something like using a paper punch or small sharpened dowel to punch a hole in the paper? No changing your score after the punch has been made.

Also have one person score everyone's tally and have another person score the "scorers" tally.

JP


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## JLMoore1956 (May 11, 2006)

Guess being deployed so often I haven't experienced too many shoots, but when I shot with a friend on the trickle shoot it seem to go okay. But I wasn't shooting for money or trophy just little healthy competetion between the two of us and be ready for deer season. Then again, sometimes I think if it is that bad, might not want to shoot 3D unless I shoot the course alone.....:sad:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Whitefeather said:


> How about something like using a paper punch or small sharpened dowel to punch a hole in the paper? No changing your score after the punch has been made.
> 
> Also have one person score everyone's tally and have another person score the "scorers" tally.
> 
> JP


The drawback to the paperpunch as I see it are twofold. First, where do we come up with all the paperpunches? Do the shooters have to provide their own, or will the club have to get them. If it is the clubs, that is another expense that will be ongoing. With the increase in oil prices the target prices have gone up. Most clubs are barely getting by these days, to add any more cost would be an unnecessary expense. Second, what do you do when there is a legitimate error on the scorecard, how do you fix it? Scoring errors do happen from time to time. At our last shoot we were shooting behind a group where one of the guys was flat out tearing it up. We were scoring 14 rings that day and he was killing 14s and 12s all day. I was mentally keeping a tally on his score and I knew he was tearing it up. When they go to target 20 they only had 19 scores on both sets of cards. I did a quick review and found that they had left out the score for target 16, which just happened to be a 14 that they recorded as a 12. He then got a 12 on 17, a 14 on 18, a 12 on 19 and a 14 on 20. What they had was 12 on 16, 14 on 17, 12 on 18, 14 on 19, with no score on 20. I saw his arrows, saw his scores and we were able to correct the scorecards right then. With the paper punch everyone would have complained he was cheating even though 3 other guys in his group saw the arrows and the 5 guys in our group saw the arrows.

We do double scorecards. We know the guys that have been................shady yeah that's it shady......in the past with their scores, when they go out we send club members with them. It has curbed the pencil whipping to a large degree. Now our biggest problem is getting guys to move out of novice when they are supposed to.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I personally don't understand why folks would want to stay in Novice...It will never enhance their skills at the longer ranges. Once you have won 1 or 2 move on out to go to the next level..JMO


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Clubs have to police themselves*

We all know it happens and most the time know who the pencil pushers are because when they do shoot in a compiitition it shows in there scores.

We are trying to set a standard that makes a fair playing field for are larger shoots with good prizes.


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## Guest (May 31, 2006)

I agree with DB shotgun starts do have their strong points...

As far as cheating at the local level.... it is going to happen some.

A few years ago, we had a problem with cheating by a specific group of people, Same 3 shot together... 2 of the 3 would turn in some BIG SCORES!

They were "encouraged" to attend some IBO/ASA events.... Guess what they did not go

They finally got caught... At a state shoot they turned in some big scores again... and a certain person came forward and claimed they shot some 5's 
They Denied it

Well at a big shoot ( 40 targets) in our area they turned in another big score.. but they were being watched by someone in the bushes with binos...

Their scores did not match what was witnessed... the next round this person in question shot a 170.... after that, I don't think he ever shot again.

To the best of my knowledge.. all of the shooters in my area that currently shoot good at the local level, also compete at he national level as well. and often they place fairly well.... I feel pretty sure that they are straight up.


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## Hiawatha 1 (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm happy to say I've always shot with pretty good folks and cheating is never a issue. I shoot pretty bad anyway, compared to some. So my scorecard is never questioned. I whish I could work my way out of the novice level. Are shooters moving up to the next level like they should? It seem you have to shoot near 200 to win novice. As for permanent marks on the cards: as bad as I shoot I have paired up with someone who couldn't work with numbers very well and had my low score 20pts lower than it should have been. I think over all cheating is not a problem at least we in the lower ranks don't see it. The gainesville archery club does a fine job keeping folks honest.


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## Jack (Dec 11, 2002)

Your always going to have someone try to cheat; just try to make hard for them. If you see it say something, it's a start. Stand your ground and think of him on your next shot. It will help get a 12:wink:


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## Devin_BowTech (Apr 19, 2006)

at my local wendsday shoots we pair up and shoot, but i like to get to mine about an hour early to warm up and share a few talks.


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## Shaman (Jun 19, 2005)

I should really not express much of an opinion, only being to one shoot, but....

It would be SO MUCH easier for people to score if the cards were set-up like golf. Assign each target a 'par' (8?) and then let people score + and -

Across 30 targets it is a lot easier to count all the minuses and add back in all the pluses. Then just take the total (-) from the highest available points.

Maybe some places do this?


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

My biggest competitor is myself.. I just don't "get it" why someone would cheat...they're only hurting themselves and giving the sport a bad image.. tsk,tsk tsk..shame on you!


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

DB good post but I have to say no to shotgun starts.I have a hard enough time making it to a local shoots when it is allday anyways.I aint worried about no pencil.I don't always have to win or score good for me to have a good day.Its like Jeff said most of your good shooters in each class are going to be in the top anywhere anyways.North GA and Benton Tenn. shoots police better than any I have been too.Thats what I think keeps the cheating down.


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## tctmy3sons (May 30, 2006)

i shoot with the same guy almost every 3d.we generaly win our classes or place.we always shoot with others mostly people we know.some do not like to shoot because we are so straight.if it's not touching the line you don't get the score.i don't care who shot it in what state,thats the way we do it!and yes i have been beaten by pencil sharpeners.how can they sleep at night?


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## ultratec1 (Jan 3, 2005)

Shotgun starts......no, just for the reason that, it is making people to be at the shoot at a deadline and I know that I get off work at 6 in the morning and head straight to a shoot so the shotgun wouldn't work for me. 

However I do HIGHLY believe that there should be a double scoring standard, and that doesn't mean getting 2 score cards and keeping your own score. I have seen this at a big indoor 3-D shoot. They handed us 2 cards and when I asked who the 2 were that wanted to keep score and the 2 that would call the arrows I was informed that we were suppose to keep our own cards. One was for offical turn-in and the other was for own to keep. This defeated the whole purpose of double scoring if you ask me. 

I like how the IBO busts groups up. Now I don't mean seperating me and my buddies but adding other shooters to our group. I like to shoot with the guys I shoot with because we REALLY hammer on each other and alot of flak is given. This makes for a fun day. I feel that giving someone in the new group a set of score cards and one of us gets a set makes it a honest playing field. 

If there is one thing that really peeves me, is a person who will run to the target and pull arrows before anyone can get to the target. Also those that shoot together and give either other a 10 or 12 in exchange for a good score for them. There are some that will do anything to get a good score but look like a complete IDIOT and blatant cheater to everyone else. To bad they don't see it themselves.


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## bradlemieux7331 (Mar 27, 2006)

*Your Right.*

On the competition level yes I think there should be an unbiased scorer for each team. If it's for fun it doesn't really matter to me cause they are just hurting them selfs they will never get any better then what they are when they start.


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## Big Dog (Oct 1, 2002)

I say no to all shoots being shot gun starts. I like to shoot with my freinds I dont see them very much and we have a lot of fun. We have shotgun starts
on our state shoots that count for shooter of the year the rest of the shoots are when you get there. So when it counts its shotgun starts! Not everone onces to be as serious about archery. If you cant have fun stay home. I like the way we do it. I dont worry about the cheaters I worry about my score only.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

Yeah, I know. This is an old thread but I just had to throw in my 2 cents. You know, beat the horse one more time!lol

I can't remember the last time I shot a trickle/casual start tourny but I SURE DON'T MISS EM'! I remember this much. If you started early, you had to wait for the shooters who cut their grass or went to church or whatever b4 the shoot and if you waited till the start deadline, you had a back up like it was a national tourny or something! booooooo!!!!!

NO QUESTION, if there is money involved, there should be double score cards and groups should be BROKEN UP! And what's this crap about SEVEN shooters on a stake! Heck, SIX is to many! Five shooter groups, MAX! PERIOD! Any more and it takes to long to score much less shoot a round!

Bottom line. If your schedule is so full that you can't make a shotgun start, then you need to just go to your local practice range and shoot there for fun. Oh, and yes I have kids and soccer games and all that stuff too...


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## Cezar11 (Jun 13, 2006)

*I can't cheat..*

I take my wife on the course with me.... there's NO WAY she lets me get away with anything!!...

she gets down and really looks at the arrow.. I have to argue over line splits..!

but I agree... the honor system is kinda sketchy when you are dealing with cash and prizes....


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## Bullish9 (Aug 27, 2002)

AKDoug said:


> I had no idea...until joining AT.. that every 3D wasn't a "shotgun" start. It's very important to me to have a safety meeting, a time for announcements, and a time to mingle before we all START AT THE SAME TIME. In Alaska, every 3D is a shotgun start. I travel 120 miles for a 30 target shoot and I have no problem getting there by the 9 or 10 am start time even with icy roads (we shoot in winter) I don't think a liberal start time would change anything and it certainly would put an undo load on the poor guys trying to clean up the range afterwards. Another thing about shotgun starts is that everyone pretty much finishes at the same time and most of them hang around to help clean up.
> 
> I shot in Alaska for a bunch of years and all starts were shotgun starts, my first local shoot in the lower 48 was very disappointing and hardly fun at all, as it was a trickle start. Trickle starts stink, half the fun of local shoots in AK was seeing the folks you hadn't seen in a while, talking BS and bragging how you were gonna school em. And after the shoot was just as much fun. Trickle shoots seem somewhat pointless, reduce the commentary of archery and do more Harm then good. Sure its nice to just show up whenever you want, but for me a big part of archery is the great friends I've made the laughs along the way and the memorable moments, such as when some new guy shoot the running buck in the butt twice and seem totally hopeless. Anyway I avoid trickle shoots unless I want to bring my kids then its fine, but otherwise I dont show for trickle shoots.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

In Michigan the best run 3D is MASO ! They have shot gun starts sometimes two a day if they have lots of shooters. No 285 FPS limits It is the best of IBO and the ASA with way better pay outs. If all 3D was run this way the sport could move forward and encourage participation in multi shoot events. Here is a link http://www.masoonline.com/
They pick the groups . You shoot with people in your class.Pay outs are right at the end of the shoot. It is 3D shoot perfection.:wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Wow*



whitetail99 said:


> In Michigan the best run 3D is MASO ! They have shot gun starts sometimes two a day if they have lots of shooters. No 285 FPS limits It is the best of IBO and the ASA with way better pay outs. If all 3D was run this way the sport could move forward and encourage participation in multi shoot events. Here is a link http://www.masoonline.com/
> They pick the groups . You shoot with people in your class.Pay outs are right at the end of the shoot. It is 3D shoot perfection.:wink:



Now thats the the way 3d should be done.:wink:


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## Tommy Chumley (Apr 9, 2003)

I am on the fence somewhat with this one. On the one hand it IS a competition. If winning wasn't the objective, we wouldn't keep score. I have lost to a "Pencil" or a friendly score keeper a time or two and it really gets to me. On the other hand it is supposed to be Fun. For some people that means going out and shooting with your buddies or your kids and for others it means Winning. I don't know if there is a simple answer. If it gets too strict, the local fun shooters stop coming and if it keeps going the way it seems to be, the local shoots turn into Just for fun type shoots. There needs to be a happy medium, I just don't know what it is.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

I strongly feel that these sharp pencils are having a very negitive inpact on the outdoor local 3-D shoots in this area. Those that win the majority of these outdoor shoots never shoot at the indoor winter shoots that require a shot gun start and where we slide the score cards to the person on the left (or right). To eliminate any hints of cheating we mostly have two person scrambles and one team member goes with the scorer to score their teams arrow and the second team member goes and scores the other teams arrows with a member of that team. This is why I dont shoot too many outdoor shoots with the exception of a couply two or three ASA's but hardly never miss an indoor. I don't mind getting beat, I dont like it, as long as it's honest


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Its a compititon*

Keep it honest.

Diffiantly that is whats best for archery.

Archers want a fair playing field.


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