# paper tuning alphamax



## j53 (Jun 8, 2007)

whats up fellas, got some questions. I've literally papertuned hundreds of bows and do realize some simply wont bullet hole at close range (6 ft range). however, the next one you drag off the shelf just like it will. Ive seen high speed footage several times and do realize that and arrow flexes when released. In our shop we like 2 be able to paper tune all at close range primarily as a starting point and go from there usually depends on situation. We started selling hoyt this year and the new alpha's are a hot item, how ever I cant get nothn but low tear from close range, if I do get a bullet hole or close to one the cams are generally noticably out of time. I called a hoyt pro with a couple or world championships under his belt and he says paper tune in five yard increments in which my bow shoots a bullet hole back there!!The arrow has corrected its self with the field point, he says you have got to give the arrow time enough to find a sense of direction, thats cool, but why do all the other bows I tuned shoot bullets holes up close, I feel like they should even though that doesn't determine bow accuracy. The pro's still say high left tear is what they prefer on right hand shooters and some articles I've read back it up. I realize all the theories and diff ways of tuning, just want to know why the new hoyts even katera I have tried have a low tear with fall away rests. And what distances do yall prefer to paper tune from, I just feel like if it comes off the rest (no matter the spine or fall away I have tried) used you will have trouble shooting fixed blades. I haven't took enough time to thoroughly test the fixed blades yet even though I understand sometimes a bow that will shoot broadheads and field pts in the same hole wont shoot pretty through paper. Im just anal I guess on a bow being able to paper tune up close. Any body else tried or notice this, thanks


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## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

I have been having the opposite problem with my new Vantage Pro. All the tears are high. From 6', tears 3/4" high, and from 15', 1" high. Can't get it down no matter how I set the nock point (have it at 90 degrees now). 

Read a lot that it is a timing issue, and have adjusted the control cable and yolks. I am using the Hoyt TEC prong rest, and have it adjusted to the lightest tension possible. Centershot is 13/16", and moving it left or right makes the tear respond. Shoot cock vane down, and have no fletch contact issues. Might have to try a drop-away as a last resort?

Used to getting bulletholes 6-20' with my bows, so this perplexes me. Don't like the way the arrows react in the first 15 yards of flight. Changing the tiller settings doesn't appeal to me, as I always like shooting them equal. Suppose a limb could be weak (bottom in my case, top in yours)???


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

I've had my 35 for about 5 weeks now. Set it up by just eyeballing things and then shot the crap out of it. For kicks this past weekend I set up my paper tuner, which by the way looks a lot like a barstool turned upside down with paper taped to the legs.

Started at 9 feet, first shot was the prettiest bullet hole you've ever seen. Shot again at 15 feet and again, a beautiful bullet hole. This thing just flat out throws a beatiful arrow.

I'm running a TT Pronghorn rest, no grip, 60 pound limbs and cheap Cabela's Stalker Extreme arrows. Centershot is dead nuts down the middle of the trough in the riser and my arrows sits at a 90 to the string at brace. My stops are timed to touch the cables at the same time as well.

Muzzy MX4's fly perfectly out of it as well. Maybe I got lucky as this is the only AM I've tried to papertune?


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

i absolutely could not get my vantage elite with cam half plus to shoot a good hole with a trophy taker spring steel no matter what i tried. changes launchers changed arrows and fletching every thing. i then put on a trophy taker fall away and bingo bullet hole.


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## lzeplin (Jan 19, 2008)

I have setup and tuned 3 different alphamax 35,,All shot perfect bullet holes,,the second one had a hostage pro rest,,and it would low tear no matter what arrow or how I adjusted it,,I put a dropzone rest on it the first arrow was a perfect bullet hole this is one easiest bow I have ever paper tuned,,I have used easton axis n-fused 400,,500 spline,,arrow dynamics the 395 mag blue,,easton 400 fat boys,,I set the cams to stop on the draw stops at the same time,,


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## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

It must be the rest. I changed the twist in the control cable until the top cam was way ahead of bottom, and still had high tears (4 twists). 

Twisted bus cable.....no help. Finally took it back to where both cams were touching at full draw, and wall is solid. Holes are 1/2" high at 6', and 3/4" high at 15'. Unlbalanced tillers (turned down top bolt, up on bottom) with no change in tears. Returned to equal tiller.

This is the best it will shoot with a Hoyt TEC prong rest. Hate to go to a drop down, but may try next to see if it does better.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

Sounds like your sync my be off.

Timing and sync are two different things on these bows.

You say the draw stops are hitting on time and that is good.

From this point are the tillers even? This is how you measure the cam sync.

If not try throwong 3-5 twists in both CC and BC and see how that help get the tiller even or with in 1/16 or less. If it gets worse than you need to do the opposite to correct it.

You will also need to double check you timing after doing this. It may turn out you need 3 twist in one and 4 in the other.

Also Creep tuning would be my next step to fine tune the nock point travel to the shooter. You can bounce back and forth between paper tuning and creep tuning to set up a pretty good center shot. Research JAVI and the method he wrote. It does work quite well.

I do not want to upset the pro you talked to cause if it works for him then great but I paper tune at 3 feet from the bow to the paper to see what the arrow is doing AS it Leaves the bow, not 5 yards down the line. An arrow must have a "general direction" at the arrow rest and not 15 feet into flight.


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## j53 (Jun 8, 2007)

yeah, thats what I don't understand, I tuned a perfect bullet hole with a katera on 60lbs last year, my real first experience with paper tuning hoyts, I thought wow this is easy, got the dealership and most of my 70 lb hunting bows if not all especially 32 alpha tear low up close 6ft, start at 15ft they are pretty, I was just wondering whats up, martins, bear, mathews, bowtechs I have all got up close along with umpteen other brands. My biggest question was how far do yall start from with the alpha 32's excluding whisker biskits, they seem to make them shoot ever so slightly tail high, all fall aways tear low from 6ft. How is this really gonna affect fixed blades with the " letting the arrow have time to find a sense of direction" its just conflicting what I have programmed in my mind I guess. However I'm not through with fixed blade testing yet. It might not be that big of a deal and I may need to start taking little stock in starting to paper tuning from six feet like those guys suggested. NOT SURE YET!!!


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

The way I see it paper tuning is supposed to capture a snapshot of the arrow upon leaving the bow, not 15ft away to give the arrows fletching time to correct arrow flight.
I paper tune at 3 ft-ish from the front of the riser to the paper. This gives me the ability to read the tear the arrow produces at the moment it clears the riser.

Any hybrid cam system will exibit low nock point travel if the cams are out of time or out of sync and even more ridiculous if they are both out. Plus after creep tuning the top may not exactly jive with the bottom as far as cam timing and sync. I know it sounds like you are undoing a lot of work by untiming a cam but if you look at the bow at full draw there is more string to be taken up from nock point to bottom cam versus the nock point to top cam. If that top cam is taking up string just a hair faster then it will disrupt even nock point travel.

Broadheads should fly much better if they are properly timede and coming out of the bow dead staight but some broadhead tuning will be in order as well asfter the centershot is set and tweaked with walkback or modified french tuning.

I would also suggest you lay some foot powder spray on the fleching to confirm theree is no fletching contact.

I go over this in my DVD InSpec. Most have found it to be very helpful. I did not give every answer in it but I gave everyone the tools to understand it and use it and let their minds "flip a feww switches" and figure out the rest on their own. It seems to work better like that.


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## QuitYourCrying (May 30, 2009)

I know that some of these new bows are very sensitive to the way they are tuned, I have recently tuned an Alpha Max 35 and it didn't take very long. While on any Hoyt bow you should note that the bow should be in time, if it is timed it may be the arrow and last but not least it comes down to the rest. I put a Vapor Trail Limbdriver on this bow and shot it about 3 or 4 times at 3 feet and shot great! I shot it all the way back to 30 feet and it was shoot awesome, if you have tried everything you may wanna look into trying the Limbdriver by Vaportrail, just a thought


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## Washi (Jan 23, 2005)

j53 said:


> yeah, thats what I don't understand, I tuned a perfect bullet hole with a katera on 60lbs last year, my real first experience with paper tuning hoyts, I thought wow this is easy, got the dealership and most of my 70 lb hunting bows if not all especially 32 alpha tear low up close 6ft, start at 15ft they are pretty


By reading this part it makes it seem like it could be a spine issue. Is that possible?


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## QuitYourCrying (May 30, 2009)

Washi said:


> By reading this part it makes it seem like it could be a spine issue. Is that possible?


It very well could be a spine issue but you generally dont see an up or down tear with a spine issue more that you see a left or right tear pending on what hand the shooter is. I would make sure the bow is in time and watch the nock travel and go from there.


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

Center shot correct ?? Cam lean at full draw ?? I set my nock point 90 degrees arrow and string. Arrow dead center of the burger hole. I installed my Muzzy Zero Effect on my Xtec last night doing nothing but an eyeball method. After of course using a square to get the 1/8" nock high. and bare shaft paper tune....perfect bullet hole. As far as the Alphamax's, I never had any problem paper tuning them. Something isn't right if you can't get a perfect tear.


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## j53 (Jun 8, 2007)

I figured it out fella's my bad,, It was the arrow rest thats all, Ive tried others before but when I did cams must have been out, I was using a limbdriver rest that was the problem and has been the problem on my hoyts, any other fall-away tuned great from 3ft on back, I can sleep at night now.
The limbdrivers for some reason wanna make low tears in paper when horsepower is turned up on these bows and nothing you do seems to change the tear other than getting cams all out of wack


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## Roskoe (Apr 15, 2007)

I have really had good luck with QAD Ultra HD's on the Hoyts - even at "warp" speed.


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## Caper33 (Nov 17, 2008)

j53 said:


> I figured it out fella's my bad,, It was the arrow rest thats all, Ive tried others before but when I did cams must have been out, I was using a limbdriver rest that was the problem and has been the problem on my hoyts, any other fall-away tuned great from 3ft on back, I can sleep at night now.
> The limbdrivers for some reason wanna make low tears in paper when horsepower is turned up on these bows and nothing you do seems to change the tear other than getting cams all out of wack


I find it hard to believe a limbdriver will not tune, lots of guys using them.


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## ElkJunky1208 (May 18, 2009)

I work at a hoyt dealer and paper tune hoyts every day i usually just eye ball level and centershot, shoot at six feet and get a bullet hole from there to twenty yards...we put QAD's on a lot of our bows and those seem to work awesome with the hoyts...i found fall aways work and tune very well on a lot of bows


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## Bonz (Jan 15, 2006)

I have found out that with my am 35 it seems real sensitive to how you have your hand on the grip vertically. It seems sensitive to a person healing the grip with there thumb pad. When I was paper tuning sometimes I would get a slight low tear and the next day, without moving the rest, it would shoot bullet holes. I found out that the times I was getting a low tear I caught myself healing the grip. Now when I shoot I hold the bow straight out from me and have the weight of the bow itself rest in the area between your pointer finger and thumb. All the weight of the bow is coming down on that area. I then know that my hand is in the right spot vertically on the grip. Then I proceed to draw back like normal. That part of the grip where it starts to curve back toward the shooter is where you want the web in your hand that is formed when gripping the bow.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

QuitYourCrying said:


> It very well could be a spine issue but you generally dont see an up or down tear with a spine issue more that you see a left or right tear pending on what hand the shooter is. I would make sure the bow is in time and watch the nock travel and go from there.


Yes arrow spine can show up in up/dn tears, especially when using a release.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

*Tiller Questions*



Hoyt Thompson said:


> Sounds like your sync my be off.
> 
> Timing and sync are two different things on these bows.
> 
> ...



If you bottom out both limbs, does this make your tiller even? 
Also, does the tiller change as you adjust your buss and control cables?


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## jc2020 (Feb 28, 2009)

I too have had problems with tuning the limbdriver. I was using a pronghorn and then switched to the limbdriver. My accuracy went down. I've tried everything including cam timing, tiller adjustment, adjusting the weight, adjusting nock height and cannot get it to shoot accurately. Went back to the pronghorn


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