# 2213 arrows, not the trajectory I was hoping for



## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum as well as archery in general. I've done much reading in terms of background information, and I finally got myself a set of equipment to start shooting with. Refer to my sig for my current set up.

To keep it to the point, my arrow flight is not what I was hoping for. I understand that 2213 arrows are heavier than recommended for a 35lb draw weight. I'm going off of the 3Rivers Archery arrow chart btw. When shooting with my community college class, a few of the more experienced guys mentioned a visually significant amount of arrow drop during flight, as well as a generally slow trajectory. I personally also notice some horizontal fishtailing (is that the right term?) of the arrow (fletchings appear to drift towards the left as the arrow leaves the arrow rest). As far as the fishtailing is concerned, I'm pretty confident that has to do with my arrow rest not being set up properly. More importantly, I'm having a lot of troubles with my shots when utilizing my sight.

The arrows aren't grouping as well as I'd like (cannot group a pie plate at 20 yards). I have my sight set as far to the bottom of the rail as possible, and I'm using the absolute lowest pin on the sight. In other words, my sight won't work for any distances beyond 20 yards. Here are my questions that I've been wondering about.

1) Am I not using the sight correctly? I'd like to think my common sense is at least decent

2) Are my arrows simply too heavy for my bow? The elevation drop at 20 yards is possibly hurting my accuracy?

3) Should I get lighter arrows than what I have? What would you recommend

4) Would you recommend the Easton Genesis 1820 NASP arrows? 30" with glue in points

5) What is the absolute largest size of aluminum arrows you'd recommend? I'm guessing 2018 with 125gr points?

Keep in mind, I am going for target shooting. My state is not kind to hunters, so I'm unlikely to do any bow hunting, although I know my equipment veers on the side of hunting.

Edit: Noticed my sig isn't showing right now. My equipment are as follows:

Bow: 2013 Martin Saber Recurve
Arrows: 2213 Easton xx75 Superlite 31" with feathers and 100 gr field points
Sight: PSE Orion 5 pin


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

Nobody has any input on this? If I'm asking int he wrong place, could someone at least point me to the right place to ask for search for information???


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Heavy arrow with a very low poundage bow is going to give you a very large amount of drop and limit the distance you can shoot. 

Without seeing your setup and you shoot it's hard to tell if something is wrong with your setup. But like I said your shooting arrows that are very heavy for your setup. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What is your draw length? Fingers or release?
Those arrows are extremely heavy. When you don't have much draw weight or length then you need to go light with your arrows.

What sort of competition are you going for?

-Grant


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

grantmac said:


> What is your draw length? Fingers or release?
> Those arrows are extremely heavy. When you don't have much draw weight or length then you need to go light with your arrows.
> 
> What sort of competition are you going for?
> ...



His setup is in his signature.....he is shooting fingers. His bow is a recurve. 

But like we said...those arrows are super heavy...even more so since they are 31". Cut to the right length I could shoot those puppies from my bow on 60 lbs.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> His setup is in his signature.....he is shooting fingers. His bow is a recurve.
> 
> But like we said...those arrows are super heavy...even more so since they are 31". Cut to the right length I could shoot those puppies from my bow on 60 lbs.


Still no idea on Draw length, which is really the important number.

-Grant


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

At such a lite draw weight, i would shoot 500 spine carbons and buy yourself a field point test kit. I've found that alot has to do also with your release and shooting technique. Are you split finger or three under? Just like above, what is your draw length? 

When i shot trad, i shot a deep 3 under. In other words, i didn't hold the string with my fingertips, but rather with the string on my small knuckle lines instead. I also shot much heavier points. If you buy a test kit, bareshaft test into a bale at 3-4 yards to figure out what tip will coincidence with your arrow spine. Some points will kick that arrow left, others will kick it right. Choose the one which doesn't kick at all.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I just realized which Martin you are talking about, the Saber used to be a 1 piece.

If you bought it new I would recommend returning it if possible. They are a very poor design which basically just put very low quality limbs onto a recycled compound riser. The result has far too much reflex to shoot well and the limbs are a known issue.

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

All: I currently have a 28" draw length while shooting split finger with a tab. What size aluminum arrows would be recommended with my setup? I'm just going for recreational target shooting. Unlikely to go hunting or participate in tournaments.

Grant: Unfortunately, I cannot return the bow. What is poor about the design? I've heard about the limb issues in years past, but I also heard they have addressed the issues already. I read about delamination of the limbs.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It's an old compound riser with WAAAAY to much reflex. Exactly the opposite of what you want in a recurve, especially one for target shooting. All good recurves and longbows are of a deflex design with the limbs attaching behind the grip.

You may be able to fit the limbs to a different riser if they use the same attachment system as a Samick Sage/Polaris.

Why can't you return it? Did you trade for it?

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

grantmac said:


> It's an old compound riser with WAAAAY to much reflex. Exactly the opposite of what you want in a recurve, especially one for target shooting. All good recurves and longbows are of a deflex design with the limbs attaching behind the grip.
> 
> You may be able to fit the limbs to a different riser if they use the same attachment system as a Samick Sage/Polaris.
> 
> ...


Purchased it from eBay.... Either way, I just want to get some decent performance at this point for recreational shooting. Where can I find more information regarding reflex and deflex? All I found was a brief Yahoo answer and two short paragraphs on wiki. Would like to know more about the shapes and why they are good/bad for the bow's performance.

Any sizing recommendation for aluminum arrows? I would assume a 500 spine is good as far as carbon arrows are concerned.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If you look the limb butts are ahead of the handle, that is reflex and it makes the bow want to twist when you shoot it. This makes the bow very unstable, the only reason that a compound can get away with this riser shape is because they are fired with a release and use stabilizers. It's not that the bow is only good for an expert so much as it's just not a good design period.

Honestly I'd try and see if the limbs will fit on a Cartel Triple 62" riser, I believe they are under $50 and make a really excellent bow.

For arrows you are in the range of a full-length lightweight 600 spine, the Gold Tip Entrada 600 left 30" long with a point between 75gr and 150gr will likely tune for you and they are dirt cheap.

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

Is there any particular reason I see so many people stick with carbon arrows as opposed to aluminum? The strongest argument I've heard so far, is that carbon arrows can handle an impact better than an aluminum (since carbon can vibrate and aluminums can't really). Other than that, I've also heard carbon arrows have imploded under stress and leave graphite in some shooters (read this over at tradtalk).

I'm also going off of the spine chart provided by 3rivers (http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf). According to the chart, I'm currently somewhere between a 500 and 600 spine for carbon. If I were to put my limbs on a 62" riser, I should technically be pulling a higher draw weight. With that theory in mind, should I just go with 500 spine?

Edit: Thank you so much for the information so far. It is definitely invaluable to a new comer like me, and I always enjoy some good advice.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Carbon is lighter and won't bend, it's straight or broken. The pictures you see of them splintered are of the old pultruded variety which aren't make anymore, modern wrapped shafts don't break like that. I've broken many, many carbon arrows and I've never had one split down the middle.
I've shot the ultralight 600 arrows from bows of 32-40# with just point weight and length adjustments. But a lightweight 500 would also work if you wanted to use a heavier point.

As for weight, I'm betting you would be within 2# on the new riser or maybe just a little more. It's difficult to compare because of the geometry changes, but that seems about right.

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

What is considered a light weight 500 spine arrow? I've seen a few different "rule of thumbs" that members go by. Mostly, I've seen something like 10 grains per inch would be considered average.


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't know why my edit button isn't there...

Anyhow, I think what I've read before about 10 gpi is regarding arrows for hunting. A bit more digging has yielded a few archers using 6.5 gpi 500 spine arrows, but they also mentioned some durability issues. Would 8.5 gpi (500 spine) be too heavy for my 35lb draw weight?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Nothing over 6.5GPI for your DW otherwise they are going to be heavy, which is why I'd recommend the GT entrada in 600 spine. Arrows are meant to shoot, not miss. Hit a rock and almost any arrow will break.

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_3.htm (This is chapter 3, should start at Chapter 1)

For those that are somewhat new to archery, I found this set of articles regarding arrows. It's a nice read and would probably save a lot of headache in the end.


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

I remember the days BEFORE carbon. Local pro shops would have a bucket of aluminum "test" arrows. You would bring your trad bow and just start shooting until you find one that flew well. I remember the tech saying "ignore the number, shake your head, and just shoot". It was so diffcult to find a alum arrow that would work, probably because everybody lets the string go a little differently. Thank goodness for 500 and 600 spine carbons, you can dump so much weight on the end of those arrows it's crazy. My last setup included a 500 spine 29 inch arrow with a 260 grain point shot out of a reflex deflex 55 lb 64inch longbow... Most charts would say i was underspined...


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes, I wish that was the case now. My local pro shop has TONS of arrows to choose from, but sadly they don't allow for testing without being charged an arm and a leg for range fees first (I know, wth right?). I almost purchased a set of 500 spine Easton ST Epic Realtree, but at 8.0 gpi I wanted to go a bit lower. Time to do some more shopping!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You can get Gold Tip Entrada shafts for under $60/dozen. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.

-Grant


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

grantmac said:


> You can get Gold Tip Entrada shafts for under $60/dozen. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.
> 
> -Grant


Where so? I am willing to fletch on my own, but all I've found was $70 minimum for a dozen for raw shafts of GT Entrada (also on eBay). After doing even more reading today, I'm pretty sure I'll go with your word of shooting 600 spine (and sub 6 gpi) arrows. Just need to get a hold of those Entrada 600 shafts at a decent price.

Just checked Lancaster and 3Rivers also. Lancaster is almost $6 a piece and 3Rivers doesn't even have it


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

bow hunter superstore has em for $63/doz, I used to know where they were $58 but I can't find it now. Definitely go with the 600.


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## rice923 (Feb 19, 2013)

grantmac said:


> bow hunter superstore has em for $63/doz, I used to know where they were $58 but I can't find it now. Definitely go with the 600.


Just found them. They also charge shipping ($7.50 for an order like this). I hate having to pinch pennies over this but I'll have to keep looking for a bit.


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