# Hoyt Formula RX Recurve Riser + Limbs



## Jason22

From the Hoyt 2010 Catalog... 










THE COMPLETELY NEW, COMPLETELY RE-ENGINEERED RECURVE FORMULA SYSTEM. 
We never stop pushing innovation. It’s been our formula for success for nearly 80 years now. It’s also a formula that has made Hoyt the most successful bow in recurve history. A formula that has generated more innovation in recurve archery than all other companies combined, including the world’s first carbon limb laminates, first bow stabilizers, first torsion-stabilized
recurve limbs, the first syntactic foam core materials and countless other innovations. Now, once again, Hoyt is moving ahead with a new formula
for success. Introducing the Hoyt Formula System. When we set out to redefine competition recurve bows with the Formula System, we looked at all of the properties that led our patented Hoyt Dovetail System to become the most-copied design in recurve history, and asked ourselves, “how can we make this better?” The result of that question, combined with the most intensive R&D effort in the industry, yielded the all new Formula Series. Integrating the riser and limb for tighter tolerances, the new Paralever System on the Formula Series intercepts vibration and adjusts the limb flex pattern, yielding the smoothest and fastest Hoyt recurve ever.

ALL-NEW FORMULA RX RISER
At the heart of the Formula System is the Formula RX riser. With its new Paralever stress-managing limb mounting system, improved perimeter mass, enhanced hardlock alignment module and multiple grip options, the Formula RX shatters the barriers of previous design to generate an ideal platform for the swiftest, smoothest, most dynamically accurate recurve limbs ever. It’s also one of the most durable and precise risers ever made.

Riser Length & Weight: 25” 2.6 lbs./1,188 grams 27" 2.87 lbs./1,301 grams
Riser Style: Hoyt Flex-Tuned Deflex Geometry

HOYT’S MOST ADVANCED LIMBS EVER
Powering the Formula System is a choice of two all-new, premium limbs – designated F4 with cross-carbon laminated syntactic foam cores, and F3 with crosscarbon laminated epoxy-infused wood cores. These smooth and incredibly swift new limbs feature a new tip geometry and new flex pattern, providing for substantially enhanced velocity – Hoyt’s fastest limbs ever – with silky smoothness even at extended draw lengths. They also feature
radically strengthened materials, ensuring the ability to withstand literally hundreds of dry-fires, unmatched torsional and vertical stability, and the industry’s best dynamic and static alignment. Whether you choose the punchy, dynamic F4 for ultimate performance, or the F3 for quiet stability, you will have the highest performance limbs Hoyt has ever produced.

NEW PARALEVER MOUNTING SYSTEM
The Formula limbs innovative, all-new cross-carbon multi-laminates work in concert with the Paralever Mounting System and extended limb design to reshape the limb stress curve for unmatched smoothness before the shot. The Paralever mount also manages vibration after the shot, with more than 40% less limb stress in the critical riser interface area. The result: increased smoothness in the clicker zone and a substantial velocity advantage with ultimate accuracy. The Paralever mount also further reduces limb alignment tolerance, allowing for rock-solid alignment stability and 0.005” increment adjustment capability using the ultra-reliable Hardlock alignment module. 

Formula system components feature two riser lengths and three limb lengths for combinations ranging from 66 to 72 inches in length, and from 22 to 50 pounds measured to ATA standards. 

The Formula Series Limb Dampening Bushing allows the use of accessories like
the FUSE Recurve Shock Rod (shown here) or even a simple Doinker suppression mount – to absorb vibration before it gets to the riser. This patent-pending feature is exclusive to the Formula Series.


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## Jason22

My impressions: 

Wow, Hoyt has been busy! Lots of new things there

"Oh no, another limb standard" but this doesn't appear to be just a means to be proprietary, it truly does look to be an advancement.

"Holy Smokes! Hoyt is making HIGH END WOOD/CARBON limbs again!!!"


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## whiz-Oz

Did you go and type that out? 
There's a link to the catalog already...


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## ScarletArrows

The question is...are we gonna play ball?
I am curious as to how this is an advancement though...looks to me like they lengthened the limb pocket and in turn the end of the dovetail...stuck a stabilizer bushing in it as a kinda "opps we forgot to have more than one stab bushing in this thing" I mean LOOK AT IT...they just moved the tiller bolt into the spot where the top/bottom stab bushing used to be. I see no improvement here that would create higher speeds or smoother shots at all (please prove me wrong I love when I am proven wrong)...the riser geometery is the same as the GMX and every other Hoyt...this is an attempt to have a patent on a "new limb" style. I love my Hoyt, and I want to see Hoyt really push design foward...if this is better I will eat my words and gladly...but something tells me its marketing and nothing more.


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## Jason22

It definitely requires jumping in with both feet since ILF limbs aren't supported.

Whiz, no I used copy and paste, and I know there was a catalog linked but having the info and images in this thread was relevent and saves people clicking


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## whiz-Oz

ScarletArrows said:


> The question is...are we gonna play ball?
> I am curious as to how this is an advancement though...looks to me like they lengthened the limb pocket and in turn the end of the dovetail...stuck a stabilizer bushing in it as a kinda "opps we forgot to have more than one stab bushing in this thing" I mean LOOK AT IT...they just moved the tiller bolt into the spot where the top/bottom stab bushing used to be. I see no improvement here that would create higher speeds or smoother shots at all (please prove me wrong I love when I am proven wrong)...the riser geometery is the same as the GMX and every other Hoyt...this is an attempt to have a patent on a "new limb" style. I love my Hoyt, and I want to see Hoyt really push design foward...if this is better I will eat my words and gladly...but something tells me its marketing and nothing more.




So you can't see how having longer limb working segments in the same length limb won't improve the linear loading characteristics of the limb?

And a less loaded limb can be built lighter and lighter limbs return energy faster?



Why don't you just say that you're not an engineer?

I'm not going to claim any mindblowing performance increases, but I'm going to say that while you're fixed with having to anchor the limb with the old method, you'll be stuck with the same engineering compromises that EVERY OTHER manufacturer has to deal with. 

For every customer who has a dummy spit because they don't like the change or don't understand, there will be some that actually get the point. 

Innovation isn't easy in something like a bent stick.

People used to think that people couldn't survive in a car that went more than a mile a minute too...



Jason22 said:


> It definitely requires jumping in with both feet since ILF limbs aren't supported.
> 
> Whiz, no I used copy and paste, and I know there was a catalog linked but having the info and images in this thread was relevent and saves people clicking


That's fair enough. 

People jump in with both feet when they buy a car that they can't easily put another engine in. They even did it BEFORE interchangeable limbs. What WERE they thinking?

If you have a Hoyt riser with Hoyt limbs and you've never taken the option of other brand limbs, it makes ABSOLUTELY no difference to you anyway...


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## Jason22

A longer limb pocket and "dovetail" section of the limb would in theory translate to a straighter bow in most cases and certainly being able to finer tune limb aligment.
If your adjustment was off or moved slightly with 3" between the end of dovetail and fulcrum, the problem would be magnified to the limb tip mich more than with 6" between dovetail and fulcrum. Capiche?


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## rgauvin

looks like they are trying to leverage some of their compound set-ups/technology. I am not sure what to think other then it looks interesting. It'll be an uphill battle with a new limb design that's for sure.


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## Collins

It looks good and I'll bet my wife it shoots well.:wink:


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## Viper1

Gents - 

With regard to the above ...

Yawn..... 

The cool thing about shooting these types of bows, for most of us anyway, is that it ain't the equipment ...

Viper1 out.


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## midwayarcherywi

Innovation is what moves societies. The fact that Hoyt is choosing to invest in recurve technology should have us all cheering.


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## jmvargas

...based on what i can see from the picture the lengthening of the limb pocket sections seems to have taken some length from the sight window...too short of a sight window could result in not having a place to put your sight ring at very short distances-ie-11 meters for field or 18m..


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## rgauvin

really dumb question. When you measure the size of the riser, how/where do you measure.

If it is from tip to tip, then the limb pockets of this riser are actually MUCH closer then a regular 25 in riser so the limbs would have to be extra long (probably close to 2 inches longer each then we are used to) to make up for it.

If it is from the limb pockets or the bolt in the limb pockets, then this riser would be a MONSTER nearing 30 inches? 

am I crazy?


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## Vittorio

rgauvin said:


> really dumb question. When you measure the size of the riser, how/where do you measure.
> 
> If it is from tip to tip, then the limb pockets of this riser are actually MUCH closer then a regular 25 in riser so the limbs would have to be extra long (probably close to 2 inches longer each then we are used to) to make up for it.
> 
> If it is from the limb pockets or the bolt in the limb pockets, then this riser would be a MONSTER nearing 30 inches?
> 
> am I crazy?


Yes, risers are measured tip to tip, or overall lenght. Surely , the window is at least a little bit shorter than in a normal 25" riser, if they have not made the riser slightly asimmetrical. In 27" riser of course it soes not make any practical difference.


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## Jason22

In another thread Vittorio made a comment that was perfect. If the system offers significant advantage, it is wise to patent and license rights to produce products to meet the standard... if your product offers no improvement but is merely proprietary, it is not likely to succeed unless you have complete dominance in a market. Hoyt has been slipping as Korean and European manufacturers have been making fantastic equipment, so they don't have the dominance to enforce a new standard that they once did.

Sony has lost my business completely because of their practice of going proprietary without a good reason for the consumer. Often with inferior products that only look superior externally.
Memory sticks only work in Sony devices, Sony MicroMV was 66% of the quality of MiniDV which others used, so they lose again. Sony MiniDisc? A horribly expensive alternative to the Compact Disc and we know who won there as well. 
But on the flipside, Phillips created the Compact Disc, made it superior to others, cheap to produce, cheap to license... so everyone adopted the standard.

If this system proves superior to ILF and Hoyt makes the wise choice to license manufacture rights to other companies, it could become the next standard. If not, it will be in the landfill with Betamax video tapes and HD-DVD players.

*I'm really excited to learn more about these limbs. The claim to survive hundreds of dry fires, increase in speed and stability and the fact that there is a carbon/wood offering are all great news to me!*


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## Vittorio

Jason22 said:


> If this system proves superior to ILF and Hoyt makes the wise choice to license manufacture rights to other companies, it could become the next standard. If not, it will be in the landfill with Betamax video tapes and HD-DVD players.


Mmm.. It took around 25 years to Sony to understand the basic rules of the market, but finally they have contributed to make a winning standard... Blue Ray had Sony inside with Philips, HD -VD had Toshiba tied with Microsoft. You can't make a new standard being alone nowdays.. 
But 25 years (from Audio 8 against Compact Cassette first lost war) are a lot of time and billion dollars losses to learn such a simple lesson.


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## Seattlepop

*ILF compatible*

I see nothing in the literature to indicate the new RX will not accept ILF fitting limbs. You just don't get the upper bushing for limb dampeners. I think their use of the phrase "extended limb design" refers only to the new flex pattern of the limb.

It would seem the F3 and F4 limbs will also fit any riser's ILF pockets giving you an additional option for limb dampener location(s).


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## Jason22

As for using ILF limbs in the RX riser, I don't think it's possible. But you might be able to use these limbs in an ILF riser.
The "bushing" fitting in the Formula limbs might be able to be removed to install an ILF fitting and use in ILF risers. Anyone have info?

Also, did anyone notice the limb tips? The tip is partially covered by the white laminate, instead of the tip being glued on over that piece.


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## rgauvin

Jason22 said:


> As for using ILF limbs in the RX riser, I don't think it's possible. But you might be able to use these limbs in an ILF riser.
> The "bushing" fitting in the Formula limbs might be able to be removed to install an ILF fitting and use in ILF risers. Anyone have info on that?


based on this picture, I'll say I doubt it. It isn't just where the bushing is located, but it also about torsional rigidity and where the limb is supposed to flex and how. 

Add to the fact that these new limbs are probably 2 inches longer then their equivalent ILF limbs, well, it'd make it complicated I am sure.


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## Warbow

From the new Hoyt Catalog:


> [The Formula RX Riser] also one of the most durable and precise risers ever made.


I wonder if that is a dig on carbon fiber risers in general the TF Apecs riser in particular, given all the problems people have been having with them?


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## Seattlepop

Jason22 said:


> As for using ILF limbs in the RX riser, I don't think it's possible. But you might be able to use these limbs in an ILF riser.
> The "bushing" fitting in the Formula limbs might be able to be removed to install an ILF fitting and use in ILF risers. Anyone have info?
> 
> Also, did anyone notice the limb tips? The tip is partially covered by the white laminate, instead of the tip being glued on over that piece.


Looking at the underside of the limb pictured shows a standard HDS, dove tail hardware, I'm also not seeing where anyone thinks its in the wrong place. The "F" limbs do not have the usual transition layers so you don't have that reference is all that is.



rgauvin said:


> based on this picture, I'll say I doubt it. It isn't just where the bushing is located, but it also about torsional rigidity and where the limb is supposed to flex and how.
> 
> Add to the fact that these new limbs are probably 2 inches longer then their equivalent ILF limbs, well, it'd make it complicated I am sure.


Where do you see that these limbs are 2" longer? I must have missed that.


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## rgauvin

Seattlepop said:


> Looking at the underside of the limb pictured shows a standard HDS, dove tail hardware, I'm also not seeing where anyone thinks its in the wrong place. The "F" limbs do not have the usual transition layers so you don't have that reference is all that is.


 If you look, that is a receiver for stabilizers, it does not appear to be another dovetail for ILF risers



Seattlepop said:


> Where do you see that these limbs are 2" longer? I must have missed that.


they have to be. Risers are measured tip to top. The support under the limb is the 25 inch mark. The pocket on this riser is ~2 inches closer to the handle then a normal ILF riser. You seat a limb that is the same size 2 inches closer to the riser it'll be a much smaller bow.

that bow needs longer limbs to make up for the limb pocket location being so much closer to the grip.


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## Seattlepop

rgauvin said:


> If you look, that is a receiver for stabilizers, it does not appear to be another dovetail for ILF risers


Yes, I see the stab bushing and the dove tail.

View attachment 654763


they have to be. Risers are measured tip to top. The support under the limb is the 25 inch mark. The pocket on this riser is ~2 inches closer to the handle then a normal ILF riser. You seat a limb that is the same size 2 inches closer to the riser it'll be a much smaller bow.

that bow needs longer limbs to make up for the limb pocket location being so much closer to the grip.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I have to agree when I side/side the RX and GMX. It does look like the RX limb bolt is now positioned where the GMX (and other risers) limb pocket stabilizer bushing is located. 

Interestinger and interestinger.

View attachment 654770


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## s26286603

"NEW PARALEVER MOUNTING SYSTEM
The Formula limbs innovative, all-new cross-carbon multi-laminates work in concert with the Paralever Mounting System and extended limb design to reshape the limb stress curve for unmatched smoothness before the shot. The Paralever mount also manages vibration after the shot, with more than 40% less limb stress in the critical riser interface area. The result: increased smoothness in the clicker zone and a substantial velocity advantage with ultimate accuracy. The Paralever mount also further reduces limb alignment tolerance, allowing for rock-solid alignment stability and 0.005” increment adjustment capability using the ultra-reliable Hardlock alignment module." 

OK having a look at it, it does look good, and it does make sense engineering wise,ie make the distance between the dovetail and the limb bolt longer(less stress in the overall area and at the dovetail). But this does two thing guys, a)material savings on the material used at the dovetail area of the limb and b)less stress on the limbbolt. But after reading the "Paralever" thingy, i dont think it makes a big difference at all. Engineering wise i dont think some of the things really will do as they say, like "increased smoothness in the clicker zone" and the velocity advantage........ The allingment will improve by the distance but thats all. They are trying hard to convince us its worth investing in them. Now all that other manufactures have to do is make a limb that has two dovetail holes :wink: and thats all, but the limbs probably have a different angle.


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## Shinigami3

Have you shot it?

Hoyt is saying, for example, that if you use a 68" bow, then with this setup, because of the reduced stack, you can use a set of SHORT limbs on a 27" riser and have the whole thing weight (mass) the same as a bow set up with mediums on a 25.

They say the shorter limb means less vibration and more accuracy.

That sounds like quite a big deal to me. I want to try one.


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## Steve N

Would someone please post a link to the above catalog page? The Hoytusa.com website does not have the 2010 catalog on it.

Seems to me that Hoyt may be cutting out over 50% of their potential market. If you can only afford a new riser, but not new limbs, are you going to buy the RX? If you buy the wrong weight limbs, or want to change weights, you are stuck with one manufacturer, paying whatever price the vendor wants, and possibly having a limited selection of limbs to choose from. There will be an extremely limited market for used limbs. If the technology fails to take off, you may be stuck with a riser no one wants to buy used because it doesn't have ILF limbs. 

New technology is great, and maybe someday, every riser will use the RX style limb pockets. But archery technology changes at the rate of molasses in January, not the 6-month timeframe of consumer electronics. 

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## Shinigami3

Well, in a PM (from another site) one of the Hoyt Engineers told me this bow isn't meant for "shooters who are still working up to final weight with cheap Chinese limbs". LOL.

He implied it's for experienced shooters.


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## Warbow

Steve N said:


> Would someone please post a link to the above catalog page? The Hoytusa.com website does not have the 2010 catalog on it.


http://vinz.tweakdsl.nl/2010HoytCatalog.pdf


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## ScarletArrows

Steve N said:


> Seems to me that Hoyt may be cutting out over 50% of their potential market. If you can only afford a new riser, but not new limbs, are you going to buy the RX? If you buy the wrong weight limbs, or want to change weights, you are stuck with one manufacturer, paying whatever price the vendor wants, and possibly having a limited selection of limbs to choose from. There will be an extremely limited market for used limbs. If the technology fails to take off, you may be stuck with a riser no one wants to buy used because it doesn't have ILF limbs. .


Hit the nail on the head. Could be freakin awesome but you have really got to sell this one Hoyt. Only way I am going to jump on board is if I see the proprietary limb used/ licenced by other companies...that would be proof in the pudding. It has to be something Hoyt is completely dedicated to having in their line for many years to come...if they bail on it all the sudden next year or the year after... then what? On to the next gimmick? Serious shooters will be on the fence with the wait and see game... I would be far less skeptical about this whole thing If Hoyt went...screw ILF and the new GMX this is so radically better we are discontinuing that idea and those bows/limbs all together... this is the wave of the future, get with it or be left in the dust... and not to have the next page of the cataloge as the ILF bows and limbs. That's a statement of faith and purpose. I feel honestly that this is a shaky attempt to try something different and see if anyone really buys it cause they say its better. I for one am going to wait for better specs and tests...and see if Hoyt is going to stand firm with these things over the next couple years before I go jumping in.


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## Release_chucker

ScarletArrows said:


> I would be far less skeptical about this whole thing If Hoyt went...screw ILF and the new GMX this is so radically better we are discontinuing that idea and those bows/limbs all together... this is the wave of the future, get with it or be left in the dust... and not to have the next page of the cataloge as the ILF bows and limbs. That's a statement of faith and purpose.



Then you'll be complaining that they don't have an ILF option and that hoyt are out of touch. Serious shooters will buy this bow and if its no better than a the old ILF offerings they won't shoot it.

But then remember how everyone complained about the GMX/990TX wasn't compatible with other brands and yet that combination has gone and done very well for itself. Maybe the GMX "issues' were just hoyt testing the waters to see if the market was ready for an innovation? 

But I'd be willing to gamble now that this combo is going to shake things up in a market sector that is ready/needs to be rocked.


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## ScarletArrows

Release_chucker said:


> But then remember how everyone complained about the GMX/990TX wasn't compatible with other brands and yet that combination has gone and done very well for itself. Maybe the GMX "issues' were just hoyt testing the waters to see if the market was ready for an innovation?


Really?...never read anything about this...but I don't get out much. I do know that ILF as a rule of thumb does have its issues across brands usually requiring a bit a sand paper...but anyway. My 900's fit well into my GMX... So did a buddies Inno's and a set of Carbon Plus's and Carbon 300's (needed sandpaper for those oddly enough). Market for archery is always ready for innovation...when its actual innovation, and I am not saying this isn't...I am waning on the side of caution folks sorry, I work retail side of archery and don't get me wrong I Freaking LOVE Hoyt bows, but there are people out there who make things to in order to make money, Hoyt is in the business of selling bows. Don't jump in cause its the newest thing out there and Hoyt says its the best...proof will be forth coming till then this in nonsensical banter. And your right I do love complaining :twitch: ....Operative question here is ...Will every recurve bow company now have a proprietary limb pocket all the sudden? And will Win & Win's be better or Samicks?


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## ScarletArrows

Shinigami3 said:


> Have you shot it?
> 
> Hoyt is saying, for example, that if you use a 68" bow, then with this setup, because of the reduced stack, you can use a set of SHORT limbs on a 27" riser and have the whole thing weight (mass) the same as a bow set up with mediums on a 25.
> 
> They say the shorter limb means less vibration and more accuracy.
> 
> That sounds like quite a big deal to me. I want to try one.


Hoyt says that a shorter limb means less vibration and more accuracy? When did Hoyt say this? and to whom?...Not to be at all nasty about the comment I am just curious cause this is a question I have asked a few other freakcurvers about and (one was a JDT'r) and most agree that it would have more speed most likely but would Stack like crazy, yes I believe accuracy wouldn't be hurt or maybe helped because the limb has less travel to perform in propeling the arrow but on the vice side of that argument would it not be more finicky to the shooters errors because of the shorter limb not allowing more time to "pull" the string straight and help to correct ...Now this works well with a compound I know (see vantage elite in Reo Wilde's hands lol)...but a recurve is a whole different animal when talking about limbs. I don't know but I would love to hear further thoughts.


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## jmvargas

ScarletArrows said:


> Hoyt says that a shorter limb means less vibration and more accuracy? When did Hoyt say this? and to whom?...




....this was the claim in another forum of the hoyt engineer who used to post here........he made many other claims about the benefits of the new riser...


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## LoneBear

*Hoyt Catalog...*

http://www.hoyt.com/assets/downloads/catalog/HoytCatalog2010.pdf



Steve N said:


> Would someone please post a link to the above catalog page? The Hoytusa.com website does not have the 2010 catalog on it.
> 
> Seems to me that Hoyt may be cutting out over 50% of their potential market. If you can only afford a new riser, but not new limbs, are you going to buy the RX? If you buy the wrong weight limbs, or want to change weights, you are stuck with one manufacturer, paying whatever price the vendor wants, and possibly having a limited selection of limbs to choose from. There will be an extremely limited market for used limbs. If the technology fails to take off, you may be stuck with a riser no one wants to buy used because it doesn't have ILF limbs.
> 
> New technology is great, and maybe someday, every riser will use the RX style limb pockets. But archery technology changes at the rate of molasses in January, not the 6-month timeframe of consumer electronics.
> 
> We'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## ScarletArrows

*from Hoyt.com*

Hoyt's New Formula Recurve System - Beyond the Limits!

by Team Hoyt

10/16/2009


At Hoyt, it’s always been our policy to seek ways to improve on the status quo. Whether that is in design, materials, aesthetics, feel, or other important areas, we’re always looking for ways to make things better. Given that philosophy, it’s a testimony to the quality and genius of our original, patented Hoyt Dovetail System (HDS) that it has been around for 25 years now.

Things are, once again, about to change for the better, in the shape of Hoyt’s new Formula Series – totally fulfilling our commitment to improvement.

The Formula series is designed as an integrated system- a complete bow designed from the ground up for performance, balance, accuracy and quality. 

When we set out to redefine competition recurve bows with the Formula System, we looked at all of the properties that led our patented Hoyt Dovetail System to become the most-copied design in recurve history, and asked ourselves, “How can we make this better?” The result of that question, combined with the most intensive R&D effort in the industry, yielded the all new Formula Series. Integrating the riser and limb for tighter tolerances, the new Paralever System on the Formula Series intercepts vibration and adjusts the limb flex pattern, yielding the smoothest and fastest Hoyt recurve ever.

Equipped with an even more precise version of the proven Hardlock alignment system, and an expanded fully Hoyt-compatible set of grip options, the Formula RX riser shatters the barriers of previous design to generate a platform for the swiftest, smoothest most accurate recurve limbs ever. It’s also one of the most durable and precise risers ever developed.

The unique mounting system on the Formula RX riser also allows for improved perimeter mass, increasing inertia and enhancing shootability. Mass concentrated at the ends creates a more stable riser with a smoother shot reaction.

Powering the Formula System is a choice of two all-new, premium limbs- designated F4 in syntactic foam, and F3 in laminated wood cores.

These smooth and incredibly swift new limbs feature a new tip geometry providing for substantially enhanced velocity- Hoyt’s fastest limbs ever. They also feature radically strengthened materials ensuring the ability to withstand more than 500 full-on dry-fires, more than one million shot cycles with no performance change, and unmatched torsional and vertical stability. 

Innovative, all-new cross-carbon multi laminates and the new Hoyt Paralever mounting system reshape the limb stress curve for unmatched smoothness before the shot, and helps manage vibration after the shot with more than 40% less limb stress in the critical riser interface area. The result is increased smoothness in the clicker zone and up to a 4 FPS velocity advantage over any available recurve limb today. 

A sleek, redesigned limb tip increases strength and alignment accuracy and also adds to velocity through an adjustment in critical string leverage at full draw.

Mounting a damper (for example, a Doinker with a weight) using the patent-pending Limb Dampening Bushing on the portion of the limb within the Paralever mount means there is no speed loss penalty from this vibration reduction method- yet it is far more efficient than riser-mounted dampers. Shooters who prefer a sharper feel can simply omit the use of a damper. Either way, the Limb Bushing allows optional use of a top rod if desired.

Take time to get directly acquainted with this new pinnacle of Hoyt recurve technology, and see for yourself why Formula is truly a step beyond the state of the art.


---catalog said 1500 dry fires right?... 4 fps? that's makes it the fastest recurve riser ever?---getting interestin folks, getting interestin. So radical and innovative that we had to keep the old stuff around too...you know just in case.  Hey just for giggles I dug up my 07 Hoyt catalog and guess what M3 limbs had syntatic foam cores. Buzz words gotta love em...let em disappear for a few years then BAM! right back at ya....ok now I am getting sarcastic...sorry, I am loving this marketing, had a art history professor in college who told me "Tony, the guy who can bull**** the best rules the world and makes the most money."


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## jmvargas

it's all well and good to have a healthy and very interesting discussion on what may or may not happen with regards to hoyt's 2010 new recurves....the bottom line, however, is that hoyt has decided to make their move and take the risk..

only time will tell whether or not that risk will pay off....

meanwhile, i will be waiting for more actual testing by actual elite archers--preferrably not sponsored by hoyt--but that's just me..


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## jmvargas

i believe tha catalogue states "500"--not "1500"--dryfires??


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## ScarletArrows

jmvargas said:


> it's all well and good to have a healthy and very interesting discussion on what may or may not happen with regards to hoyt's 2010 new recurves....the bottom line, however, is that hoyt has decided to make their move and take the risk..
> 
> only time will tell whether or not that risk will pay off....
> 
> meanwhile, i will be waiting for more actual testing by actual elite archers--preferrably not sponsored by hoyt--but that's just me..


agreed JM

and your correct it does say 'hundreds of dry fires' 1500 was the standard for compound set ups


----------



## ScarletArrows

Here is a science question for those engineer's out there....on a lever, How does the fulcrum positioning have an effect on the amount of force required to move an object ? How about closer to the object that is being forced upon and farther from the force attemptin to move said object? How about farther away from the object being forced upon and closer to the object creating the force? How about in the middle? (hint hint folks this may be the science that makes me eat my words or proves my point..well maybe I dunno just trying to wrap my brain around this whole thing.)


----------



## ScarletArrows

Ok. I think I am about to eat my words.


----------



## s26286603

OK having a look at it, it does look good, and it does make sense engineering wise,ie make the distance between the dovetail and the limb bolt longer(less stress in the overall area and at the dovetail). But this does two thing guys, a)material savings on the material used at the dovetail area of the limb and b)less stress on the limbbolt. But after reading the "Paralever" thingy, i dont think it makes a big difference at all. Engineering wise i dont think some of the things really will do as they say, like "increased smoothness in the clicker zone" and the velocity advantage........ The allingment will improve by the distance but thats all. They are trying hard to convince us its worth investing in them. Now all that other manufactures have to do is make a limb that has two dovetail holes :wink: and thats all, but the limbs probably have a different angle.[/QUOTE]

Here is a science question for those engineer's out there....on a lever, How does the fulcrum positioning have an effect on the amount of force required to move an object ? How about closer to the object that is being forced upon and farther from the force attemptin to move said object? How about farther away from the object being forced upon and closer to the object creating the force? How about in the middle? (hint hint folks this may be the science that makes me eat my words or proves my point..well maybe I dunno just trying to wrap my brain around this whole thing.)
__________________

Ok if you read my previous post its says it all there. If the end point of a lever is extended from the fulcrum , then the force that is required to hold down the end( assuming that there is an apposing on the other end of the lever) becomes less making less bending forces and stresses in the lever itself. Its nothing special at all, i need to see machine fired group size data to say anything more, to me it sounds like a marketing gimmick, but if hoyt were truely an innovative company they would have made the riser accept the ilf and the formula limbs.......


----------



## VinZ

The ILF limb pocket does have its limitations. The best ILF pocket I have come across is on the Aladin riser. Never have I had the pleasure of tuning such a fine piece of work. To give you an idea: the limb bolt setting has the same 'click' function like on a sure loc sight. It does not have any locking screws and can be done when the bow is stung. 
But with ILF there will always be some mark on the limbs when it has been shot, even the Aladin is no exception. Personally I like it that way - keeps people from selling used limbs as new.

Nishizawa and Yamaha had better solutions but made sure nobody else would use them. Yamaha also changed the limb pocket system with every new riser (that does not help). It seems several better solutions have been found over the years but never caught on because of reasons Vittorio already explained in another threat. 
If Hoyt does patent this but does not charge for it (like Volvo did with the seatbelt) it is a good bet that this will become the new standard.

I still think Hoyts next riser will be better


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## xoras

so lemme get this straight , we have to buy the limbs specially for this or not? ,and the dampening system too, can we use the old ones?


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## whiz-Oz

The old limb system is incompatible with the new risers. For the Formula riser, you have a choice of two sets of Hoyt limbs. No other ones will fit. 

You are buying a new bow this time. Not a new riser. Not new limbs. 

You have to buy the Formula riser and the new F3 or F4 limbs.


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## Steve N

Scarlett Arrows, would you like some fries with those words? :wink:


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## xoras

thanks clears a lot of doubt in me , but its gonna be quite expensive. Should be worth it right?


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## ScarletArrows

Steve N said:


> Scarlett Arrows, would you like some fries with those words? :wink:


Well I do Like fries...but my main question is how does having that area with less stress make it have a better cast? I mean 1 inch ain't gonna do too much to change the cast of the overall limb...especially if all they did was add lenght to the limb at the dovetail/ limb bolt area as opposed to moving the hard lock back farther on the limb itself (but that would mean changing riser lengths to accomidate.) 

Operative place to watch over the next year folks is Korea...Had this pointed out to me :wink:...and its true, just look at the TF Apecs. 

But I do love Viper1's post that was overlooked by everyone..."it ain't the bow."


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## Jason22

ScarletArrows said:


> Here is a science question for those engineer's out there....on a lever, How does the fulcrum positioning have an effect on the amount of force required to move an object ? How about closer to the object that is being forced upon and farther from the force attemptin to move said object? How about farther away from the object being forced upon and closer to the object creating the force? How about in the middle? (hint hint folks this may be the science that makes me eat my words or proves my point..well maybe I dunno just trying to wrap my brain around this whole thing.)


"Give me a lever long enough... and I will move the world." - Archimedes

In our case, the lever is a limb. But it's a second class lever because the force (limb) is between the fulcrum (riser) and effort (draw hand). A first class lever is like a see-saw or using a crow bar.

Like good levers, good limbs are efficient at transferring energy. The more efficient they are, the more energy can be "stored" in a fully drawn limb with the same effort. But we care not only about getting energy into the limb, but efficiently getting it back out of the limb, being transferred to the arrow.

Since in our case the lever itself moves when we shoot, the weight of the lever comes into play. Throw a baseball with a wrist weight on, then throw it without. You are more efficient without so the ball is thrown much faster. A lighter limb with all else being equal is faster.

What I would like to know is if the limb really does flex past the edge of the riser. If it does, then these new limbs work differently than ILF limbs. If it doesn't, then the real benefit from the new limb mounting/pocket system is the greater length of it which translates to finer adjustability and coming less out of adjustment if there is any movement in the alignment system. And it would be hard to justify changing from ILF to the new system just for that reason.

If it flexes in the limb "pocket" area, then this would be a hybrid of first and second class levers (could be considered 3rd class). I know it works differently, but the concept was partially used on Screaming Eagle bows.









Even if we only got 1% more energy out of the limbs with this new system, that could be 2+fps










But then think about this, if it does flex in that section of the limb, then using dampeners or stabilizers screwed into the limb fittings would change your bow's tune.


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## Jason22

Quotes from Hoyt engineeer elsewhere on the net, so Hoyt says the limb is active in the pocket. *Cool stuff!*

"It's not just tighter tolerances- it decreases stack (you can shoot a short limb in a Formula 27" riser at 30.5" draw very comfortably), it kills vibration much faster (the limb is active in the Paralever mount, and can be further damped directly using assorted bits in the patent-pending limb bushing), there's 40% less stress at the limb-riser interface, and the mass weight of the 25" riser is the same as a 23" Nexus (the 27 is within a couple grams of a 25" Nexus). A loose analogy is the long riser-shorter limb situation you see with something like a Vantage Elite. Most setups are at least 4 FPS faster than anything else out there-this is a real improvement over current tech."


----------



## Seattlepop

Jason22 said:


> Quotes from Hoyt engineeer elsewhere on the net, so Hoyt says the limb is active in the pocket. *Cool stuff!*


Looking at the limb pocket pics and other F3/4 limb pics, it seems Hoyt is using the same limb-bolt/limb slot arrangement as before; they are using the same dove-tail bushing hardware as before; they are using the same dowel system as before; so what has really changed? If my assumptions are correct, the only real changes are a longer limb base which allows the limb to flex in the pocket and a longer limb pocket to accommodate it. 

Is this new or do limbs flex in the pocket with the current designs? I just crudely micro'd my Matrix/G3's and found that at draw, the limb "bows", ie, flexes, in the pocket which indicates the limb is active in the limb pocket. 

If the limb is already "active", can you patent "more active"?


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## ScarletArrows

I LOVE SCIENCE !!!! :band:


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## limbwalker

> The cool thing about shooting these types of bows, for most of us anyway, is that it ain't the equipment ...


Ditto.

I predict that this will go the way of the Axis riser and it's limb fittings. Whether or not it's revolutionary, I don't see it becoming widely accepted. Major risk by Hoyt IMO.

John.


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## jmvargas

as i mentioned elsewhere i love my border limbs too much to even consider a non-ILF riser!!


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## Borja1300

jmvargas said:


> as i mentioned elsewhere i love my border limbs too much to even consider a non-ILF riser!!


Don't worry.

I'm pretty sure that hoyt's intentions are to changes all this risers in the future to this system so, posibly border will do limbs that can be used with this new system


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## jmvargas

there is no doubt borders can easily make these new limbs...but since my ILF borders are relatively new i am not in a hurry to switch to this new riser.....


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## sundevilarchery

Wow, this is funny. 

The Formula RX up is not part of some master plan to rule the world... it's a HOYT engineer's idea to make a better product (and the company supported it). 

It's pride in product and workmanship. 

Based on what I've heard, I can't wait to get my hands on one of the new systems to try.

KJ


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## monty53

It's a new concept, untried as of now.

If it's all that that Hoyt claims it is it will show.

When those that can tell the difference (the top elite shooters) try it and find it superior and better than what is now available, it will become "the new standard". 
If not it will go the way of the dodo-bird.


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## limbwalker

I can understand why the stab. bushing is where it is, but I would be concerned about the limb failing at that point. Hoyt hasn't exactly had the best of luck lately keeping their limbs together. One more hole in the limb IMO ain't gonna help that...

Having said all that, I hope it is better. We've been using the same "system" for almost 40 years now. If it's better, then it will be proven as such. If not, then it was a big waste of time, money and energy.

The skeptic in my says it's an opportunity to improve the performance and feel, but it's an even bigger opportunity to keep other manufacturer's limbs off of their risers...

John.


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## Shinigami3

limbwalker said:


> We've been using the same "system" for almost 40 years now. If it's better, then it will be proven as such. If not, then it was a big waste of time, money and energy.


According to the patent I looked up, it was patented by Hoyt/Easton archery company in 1983. 

Are those 40 years of yours dog years ?


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## ScarletArrows

The ILF patent may only be 26 years old but the "style" of pocket that ILF was based around dates back to the 60's with Bear archery and some of their takedowns.


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## Jason22

I only personally know 2 people who have shot the new bow, but they really liked it.

Whether it will be worth it to do a riser and limb upgrade that is incompatible with current standards is yet to be determined but I'm keeping an open mind and am optimistic that this could be something good. 

It's definitely refreshing to see a new design on the market


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## Warbow

ScarletArrows said:


> The ILF patent may only be 26 years old but the "style" of pocket that ILF was based around dates back to the 60's with Bear archery and some of their takedowns.


Not as far as the context of this thread is concerned, which isn't about take down limbs but specifically about interchangeable limbs made to the de facto ILF/Hoyt Dovetail Limb Fitting is concerned. We are talking about Hoyt messing with the _interchangeability_ of limbs, which requires an adherence to a specific standard.

This whole argument is pretty pointless until people have a chance to try out the limbs and see if messing with standards has resulted in limbs that make the investment in a proprietary riser/limb combos worth the investment/risk (since if the Combo fails, Hoyt could quickly discontinue the system.) As Vittorio has pointed out, Sony is known for its attempts at proprietary formats. That failed them utterly with Betamax because people wanted a longer recording time and because unlike Betamax, which was only made by Sony, VHS was made by multiple companies and you could play back your VHS cassettes in any of them. But, if the Hoyt Formula RX (sounds like an infomercial baldness cure...) is really amazingly good, it may get some traction...in spite of its proprietary nature.


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## Jason22

Hoyt site updated, it was under construction over weekend: 
http://www.hoytrecurve.com


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## michigan ken

Does anyone know how much these new risers and limbs will cost.????????


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## dchan

*altservices pricing*

So far the only place I've seen them online is altservices

http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/001095.5.9543779385973745387
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/001095.5.9757545543573745387
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/001095.13.4165190053373745387
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/001095.13.4352970233573745387


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## DEAD 10

Shinigami3 said:


> Have you shot it?
> 
> Hoyt is saying, for example, that if you use a 68" bow, then with this setup, because of the reduced stack, you can use a set of SHORT limbs on a 27" riser and have the whole thing weight (mass) the same as a bow set up with mediums on a 25.
> 
> They say the shorter limb means less vibration and more accuracy.
> 
> That sounds like quite a big deal to me. I want to try one.


agreed cause with less limb moving there is less of a chance to twist the limbs the only problen is that short limbs dont sell


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## massman

*For DEAD10*

Not to worry as this also makes HOYT limbs incompatable with every riser manufacturer in the world. You won't be seeing any of these new generation limbs on a Samick or Win & Win (unless they also change). But then, why would they?


BEST Regards,

Tom


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## Not Sure

Somebody tell me why 4 fps is going to make a real difference? I'll probably save a thousand bucks just by doing what Mr. Vargas did: McKinneys and those Border Hex5 limbs. I'll bet you that combination brings more than 4 fps compared to most limb/arrow setups.

That being said, man that new riser is pretty! 

Eager to hear people's results.


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## G4RB4G3M4N

*4 fps*

I guess I can miss or hit the target that much faster now :wink:


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## jmvargas

Not Sure said:


> Somebody tell me why 4 fps is going to make a real difference? I'll probably save a thousand bucks just by doing what Mr. Vargas did: McKinneys and those Border Hex5 limbs. I'll bet you that combination brings more than 4 fps compared to most limb/arrow setups......[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> .......at least 6 fps Not Sure..i went from 191 fps to 197 fps when i chronographed similar set-ups using my 34# Winacts and my 34# Borders HEX5-H Mk2 limbs and the same MkcinneyII 725 arrows....
> 
> ...And the Borders set-up only had initial tuning with a 16-strand string....i am still expecting some improvements when my 12-strand strings arrive and the bow is fine tuned...


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## Joe T

massman said:


> Not to worry as this also makes HOYT limbs incompatable with every riser manufacturer in the world. You won't be seeing any of these new generation limbs on a Samick or Win & Win (unless they also change). But then, why would they?
> 
> 
> BEST Regards,
> 
> Tom


Historically, via trial and error, bow/limb design has always become near optimum based on the materials available.

While the ILF has provided a lot of benefits to both manufacturers and end users it has meant limited improvements in performance for the last 30 years. What improvement there has been is by using better materials in the same basic design (a reverse of the historical process). What the EILF may do is open the door marginally to bow designers considering to go back to the historical process of thinking along the lines of designing the bow in terms of the available materials. After all, like Hoyt, they can continue supplying risers and limbs for the ILF market.


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## ScarletArrows

Jason22 said:


> "Give me a lever long enough... and I will move the world." - Archimedes
> 
> In our case, the lever is a limb. But it's a second class lever because the force (limb) is between the fulcrum (riser) and effort (draw hand). A first class lever is like a see-saw or using a crow bar.
> 
> Like good levers, good limbs are efficient at transferring energy. The more efficient they are, the more energy can be "stored" in a fully drawn limb with the same effort. But we care not only about getting energy into the limb, but efficiently getting it back out of the limb, being transferred to the arrow.
> 
> Since in our case the lever itself moves when we shoot, the weight of the lever comes into play. Throw a baseball with a wrist weight on, then throw it without. You are more efficient without so the ball is thrown much faster. A lighter limb with all else being equal is faster.
> 
> What I would like to know is if the limb really does flex past the edge of the riser. If it does, then these new limbs work differently than ILF limbs. If it doesn't, then the real benefit from the new limb mounting/pocket system is the greater length of it which translates to finer adjustability and coming less out of adjustment if there is any movement in the alignment system. And it would be hard to justify changing from ILF to the new system just for that reason.
> 
> If it flexes in the limb "pocket" area, then this would be a hybrid of first and second class levers (could be considered 3rd class). I know it works differently, but the concept was partially used on Screaming Eagle bows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if we only got 1% more energy out of the limbs with this new system, that could be 2+fps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then think about this, if it does flex in that section of the limb, then using dampeners or stabilizers screwed into the limb fittings would change your bow's tune.



Ok then continuing this lever thread of thought...
With a 2nd Class lever do you make it easier to transfer energy to the object being "levered" against by moving the fulcrum's edges farther towards the center of the levers arm.

I have been just messing with a metal ruler here at the desk and when I pinch the ruler at the bottom and flex then release the ruler really wobbles back and forth...when I pinch the bottom of the ruler and use my thumb to apply pressure father up the ruler while bending it back over my thumb the ruler snaps even harder and doesn't wobble as much. 
(now I know that this may not be exactly how the new paralever mount works but... they called it a para*lever* ) 
I understand the basic concept that if you lengthen the limb pocket the limb pivot point is moved back causing less flex on the overall length of the limb and in turn allowing the area inside the limb pocket to act as a better reinforcement for the shorter bending limb area (see Bowtech Center Pivot Bows) Shooting wise this makes the bow much smoother to shoot (less vibration and hand shock). Speed wise though this shorter moving limb area does not produce as much of a cast as a longer moving limb area, which is why a Bowtech Admiral won't shoot as fast as a PSE Omen...the limb moves more on the omen allowing greater speeds ...talking actual speeds of 305 (bowtech) vs 346 (PSE). 
To make arrows shoot faster you must do one of two things...put a pully system on it (compounds) or increase the cast of the limb i.e. take a limb and make it stiff that only a god like figure that can pull it back....to make it rebound faster to its resting position.

Soooo....lets apply this to new Paralever system. IMO it will shoot smother, but speeds will not increase much if at all...(baring you taking and putting a short set of limbs on it--but they will stack more ...no two ways around it...we all know that short limbs hit their peak poundage faster hence why they are recommended for those really short draw individuals...)
Beware the hype....and for those of you that said I ain't an engineer :darkbeer: I'm not, just been a Bow Technician for 4 years now. Shoot everything that comes through the doors of the shop, as well I have built recurves in college...amazing what you can learn building a simple stick bow. 
But BY ALL MEANS I CAN BE WRONG! So come to your own conclusions. 
I like wobbly rulers


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## ScarletArrows

oh and it might be quieter too...but who cares how quiet a target bow is really?
DO NOT GET ME WRONG...center pivot techonology is freakin awesome for the smoothness of shot on a bow...but for a recurve? I don't think it matters much or is a great improvement...Hence why bowtech ain't all the sudden building recurves.


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## ScarletArrows

and some of the referances are an oversimplification...sorry I don't want to get into cam design having the effect on speed...it doesn't pertain to our issue.
Just dawned on me as well that you can also increase speeds on a recurve by placeing the limbs at more of a preloaded stress (terminology?)...hence border's limbs and how curly they look.


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## ScarletArrows

And yes I am a pretensious ass...hence why I use the term "hence" so much....


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## massman

*Design*

Noticing that (as prev commented upon) the sight window is shortened on this new design. WHY?? If when designed the limb bolts are spaced apart the same as any current 25" riser design, then it makes no difference where the detent button is located in order to keep the bow as a 68" AMO. So if the window is shorter and the bow is an AMO of 68" and the riser is 25" long, does that mean that the limb is longer? If the limb is the same length from the detent to the tip as a current limb design, but it is longer from the detent to the limb bolt, the limb would need to be longer. Love to get one on a table to measure...

I can see an aftermarket design for an bolt on plate that fits a typical ILF riser to move the location of the detent button to accept these new limbs...

BEST Regards,

Tom


----------



## Seattlepop

massman said:


> Noticing that (as prev commented upon) the sight window is shortened on this new design. WHY?? If when designed the limb bolts are spaced apart the same as any current 25" riser design, then it makes no difference where the detent button is located in order to keep the bow as a 68" AMO. So if the window is shorter and the bow is an AMO of 68" and the riser is 25" long, does that mean that the limb is longer? If the limb is the same length from the detent to the tip as a current limb design, but it is longer from the detent to the limb bolt, the limb would need to be longer. Love to get one on a table to measure...


I posted this pic earlier, and I think it shows that the sight window is probably a non-issue. To accommodate the longer limb base, the riser limb bolt appears to have been moved to where the riser stabilizer bushing use to be. So yes, I'm assuming the overall limb is longer due to the extended limb base. They did that, of course, to maintain the current standard measurements of 66/68/70, etc., in order that you don't have to buy a new string. Cost conscious they are. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=654770&thumb=1&d=1255721804



massman said:


> I can see an aftermarket design for an bolt on plate that fits a typical ILF riser to move the location of the detent button to accept these new limbs...
> 
> BEST Regards,
> 
> Tom


I'm going to wait for the first person to take an old limb set and drill a new bushing hole to fit the RX. It will be the new game in town. "Hey, I tried the RX with an old pair of re-drilled Universals, $100, and they perform just like...$$$!" You know you want to.


----------



## pencarrow

Seattlepop said:


> I posted this pic earlier, and I think it shows that the sight window is probably a non-issue. To accommodate the longer limb base, the riser limb bolt appears to have been moved to where the riser stabilizer bushing use to be. So yes, I'm assuming the overall limb is longer due to the extended limb base. They did that, of course, to maintain the current standard measurements of 66/68/70, etc., in order that you don't have to buy a new string. Cost conscious they are.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=654770&thumb=1&d=1255721804
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to wait for the first person to take an old limb set and drill a new bushing hole to fit the RX. It will be the new game in town. "Hey, I tried the RX with an old pair of re-drilled Universals, $100, and they perform just like...$$$!" You know you want to.


Put a T/D2 bushing in the old hole and SHAZAM, you have a 1/4x20 stabilizer bushing.

Fritz


----------



## jmvargas

the shortened sight window is one of the comments made by the first?? archer who has tried this bow in the UK..it's in the UK forum....


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## jmvargas

i have to make a correction..the comment was in a PM to me from another archer who spoke to the archer concerned when i asked him for more details...


----------



## MyLifeIsArchery

I have a young friend that is trying this new hoyt and he is impressed with it. Im curious to see if it does shoot any better. From what I have heard its going to be a very nice shooting bow.I like how the riser looks. It looks like it will actually help load up the limbs, alot like a spring and maybe get some more snap in the limbs. They did a good job moving the string grooves up on the limb, that will make them faster and smoother too. I would think. I aslo like that new red fusion color, that was a good idea.:thumbs_up


----------



## tjk009

*A leap of faith....*

Yes, the riser looks nice and it might work better than existing products. Hard to say if the limbs will last a decade, year or month. With Hoyt warranty replacements taking two months or more a failure with a non-HDS/ILF system could ruin a season. Best to buy two pairs of limbs or keep the backup bow dusted off. Time will tell.


----------



## jmvargas

just read another review in the UK forum which said the bow is smooth, has a soft feel, is light and has no back bushing....the first three are good for me but my set-up requires a back bushing so that's it for me on that riser...


----------



## limbwalker

> is light and has no back bushing


Well, they obviously weren't worried whether Butch would shoot one of these or not...

A lack of backweight bushing seems silly to me. 



> my set-up requires a back bushing so that's it for me on that riser...


Ditto.

Let's see... proprietary limbs and no backweight bushing. Exactly what were they thinking on this one?

Did someone at Hoyt lose a bet or something?

John.


----------



## ScarletArrows

...I was looking foward to a TEC style carbon fiber riser...this THING is just a huge disappointment.


----------



## G4RB4G3M4N

*Rx vs. GMX*

Doesn't Hoyt's website state that the GMX and RX use the same HDS, without the paralevel on the GMX. So, if the Paralevel system isn't important to you, you can simply buy a GMX, save the little bit of money, and but F4 or F3 limbs on it? 0_0? Thoughts? I know I've seen GMX risers shot with non-hoyt limbs, so this is a tricky one....

Otherwise, I third John with the backweight not being there! V-bars are shiny and all, but very expensive (why does a short rod cost almost as much as a long rod again...), and take up a lot of room if you shoot indoors...

It's is pretty though, and the new HDS may work, but, only if people are willing to pay for it. 

As to what they were thinking on this one....
Well, they were hoping that people would buy their riser, get locked in, and not want to switch. Sadly for that logic, if I'm willing to buy a new riser and limbs for a new bow once.... :star:


----------



## VinZ

Just held a formula RX in my hands. It's CNC machined and I need to say that the quality has improved - a lot less CNC marks on it than usal. Formula limbs will not fit a normal ILF riser. Looks very good, but not 1150 euro's good.


----------



## limbwalker

> It's CNC machined and I need to say that the quality has improved


Vin, I'll take your word for it, but I'm not quite sure how this is possible. Hoyt's risers have always been at the top of the market for quality and esp. machining. I can't imagine how you could improve on them.

John.


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## whiz-Oz

I can believe it. If I look along the flat faces of my Axis, I can see machining marks that I'm going to have to blend or block sand if I'm going to make it look sweet when I (if I) chrome it. My platinum Axis doesn't have the same level of minor markings. Maybe it was a zeroing problem due to a worn tool in the machine. I've not seen this problem on the newer risers made less than 5 years ago in ANY of them.. and I look at a LOT of bows. At least 80 in detail in the last four days..


----------



## gig'em 99

limbwalker said:


> Let's see... proprietary limbs and no backweight bushing. Exactly what were they thinking on this one?
> 
> Did someone at Hoyt lose a bet or something?
> 
> John.


About a year ago, I was looking around the Win & Win website, and ran across one of their videos, about their research regarding back weights. Basically, the video said that their testing had shown that back weights decrease riser stability. Now, I'm not agreeing one way or another, I use a back weight...but maybe there is something to this, and Hoyt is jumping on that band wagon. 

I'll add that, bow stability as charted in slow motion and on a shooting machine, in my mind would not relate to the feel that an archer gets by putting weights where they prefer. Possibly this is another one of those engineering/physics principles that looks nice on paper and graphs, but as soon as you add a human to the equation is useless.

So, to all you manufacturers out there, that pay close attention to our musings here on AT...listen to the customer, and give us our back bushings!

Gig'em


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## VinZ

whiz-Oz said:


> I can believe it. If I look along the flat faces of my Axis, I can see machining marks that I'm going to have to blend or block sand if I'm going to make it look sweet when I (if I) chrome it. My platinum Axis doesn't have the same level of minor markings. Maybe it was a zeroing problem due to a worn tool in the machine. I've not seen this problem on the newer risers made less than 5 years ago in ANY of them.. and I look at a LOT of bows. At least 80 in detail in the last four days..


Exactly what I meant. CNC machine head markings on the riser due to worn/blunt head or producing to fast. I have seen these markings on new risers over the last year but there less and less of them.


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## jmvargas

i had 3 matrixes and 2 elans before i switched to my x-factors and all of them looked almost perfect to MY eye....i also recently got a pre-owned 23" elan to play around with and i just examined them now and they also look almost perfect....even my gamemaster riser looks pretty good....

...bottom line is Hoyt RISERS were/are always well made...or maybe i'm just one of the lucky ones?...


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## ScarletArrows

back bushings decrease riser stability cause they cost more to machine those holes into the riser then stick in a bushing.

Wonder if we'll see Butch shooting this thing?


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## limbwalker

Whiz, I noticed a few minor machining marks deep in the pockets and recesses of my older Axis riser, but none in the two newer ones. Personally, I think this is one area that Hoyt excels at. Their risers are always superb quality in fit and finish. One of the reasons I still shoot them... I've seen what I consider equal quality in the Bernardini and W&W risers too. But Hoyt definintely has the right shop cutting out their risers...



> back bushings decrease riser stability cause they cost more to machine those holes into the riser then stick in a bushing.


Huh? You lost me there...



> Wonder if we'll see Butch shooting this thing?


I doubt it, unless they install a backweight bushing just for him... I just don't think we'll see V-bars on his bow anytime soon. If ever. 

I don't want to speak for Butch, but from the vibe I was picking up, he was pretty disenchanted with the gear he was being asked to shoot since Sidney. He told me once that the Axis was his favorite riser as well. And at the Grand Prix event in Antalya in '06, he was shooting old wood core C+ limbs. I've even seen him pull out his old FX limbs at a few events. I know for a fact that the G3's let him down in Athens...

John.


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## jmvargas

for those interested i just called LAS to ask about this new bow..they now have one(1) set for demo purposes and expect some deliveries in 2 weeks or so..pricing is $679.99 for the 27" riser and $599.99 for the F3 wood cored limbs..i forgot to ask about pricing for the 25" riser and F4 limbs but it shouldn't be too far from these...


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## limbwalker

Wow. $1,300 for a bow, without any accessories. 

Well, what do I know. I have a few friends that spent that much on custom traditional bows with exotic woods and hand carvings. So I guess by comparison...

ITS STILL A LOT OF MONEY! ha, ha.

Sorry, but I guess I'm just "thrifty". Others may have another word for that, but I'm sticking with "thrifty"... 

John.


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## ScarletArrows

limbwalker said:


> Huh? You lost me there...
> 
> John.


Sarcasum John, sarcasum. :tongue: ..there is nothing about having a back weight that decreases stability...you and I both know that one. The only thing unstable about having a back bushing is the extra cost to tap it out and the lengths to which a company will go to save a buck...silly.
:wink:


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## limbwalker

You may be correct about that, but I find it hard to believe Hoyt would be that cheap on their risers. They have always provided things like backweight bushings and stainless bushings for thier stabilizer mounts. And always in a very refined fashion too. This lack of a backweight is truly a mystery to me.

John.


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## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> You may be correct about that, but I find it hard to believe Hoyt would be that cheap on their risers. They have always provided things like backweight bushings and stainless bushings for thier stabilizer mounts. And always in a very refined fashion too. This lack of a backweight is truly a mystery to me.
> 
> John.


Hmmm...Maybe Hoyt doesn't want you or Butch using their risers...:spy:

(A plot too subtle for me to figure...it does seem odd to give an archer fewer choices. Perhaps Hoyt wants to be like Apple computer, where the end user is assumed to be in expert and given fewer choices? (This written on an Apple computer, mind you...  ))


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## limbwalker

I somehow doubt that worries them at all...

Admittedly, 95% of the market is made up of folks who use the now-stock twin v-bars and no back weight. However, why remove the option at all? Even many who do use the twin-v bars will utilize the backweight bushing if they have the option (a la Vic). 

John.


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## G4RB4G3M4N

Notice the GMX and Nexus is still in the line up. They have back weight bushings in them, and accept IFL limbs. Good thing, or people might just skip over Hoyt all together if they use back weights.

Makes me wonder, if so many people shoot Hoyt _risers_ now days with non-Hoyt limbs, well we see if people prefer Hoyt risers more than other companies limbs... or buy older models (until they're all bought up)


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## flntknp17

I know this is only sorta germaine to the discussion here........but it comes up a lot when I talk to fellow recurve folks. It seems like people really dislike the Hoyt limbs and always have horror stories to back it up. My experience has been superb with the Hoyt limbs (C+, FX, G3, 900CX) with zero issues of any kind ever. Am I just lucky? I have handled a lot of different risers and I can't think of any that have the consistently high quality the Hoyt risers that I have owned (Radian, Elan, Axis, Matrix, Gamemaster, Excel).

Matt


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## Sighting In

I am not sure if this has been said already (I don't have time to read the entire thread) but my first thought when I saw this riser was that it looks like a center-pivot/Alpha Max limb pocket gone recurve. Honestly, I was wondering when somebody would do this sort of thing. It only makes sense to me that this principal would apply just as much to recurves as it does to compounds: a bigger limb pocket means less vibration and less room for movement between the limb and riser.


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## jmvargas

flntknp17 said:


> I know this is only sorta germaine to the discussion here........but it comes up a lot when I talk to fellow recurve folks. It seems like people really dislike the Hoyt limbs and always have horror stories to back it up. My experience has been superb with the Hoyt limbs (C+, FX, G3, 900CX) with zero issues of any kind ever. Am I just lucky? I have handled a lot of different risers and I can't think of any that have the consistently high quality the Hoyt risers that I have owned (Radian, Elan, Axis, Matrix, Gamemaster, Excel).
> 
> Matt


......no argument about hoyt making excellent risers Matt...i have had 3 matrixes and 3 elans before i switched to my x-factors but just because they were lighter..

it's their limbs that have been a problem lately...i never had any problems with my carbon+..vectors..and M1s but switched to win&win, samick and now borders after my last M1 as i wanted a bit more speed for outdoor..lucky for me cuz all their new limbs after the M1 seem to have issues!!


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## whiz-Oz

jmvargas said:


> just read another review in the UK forum which said the bow is smooth, has a soft feel, is light and has no back bushing....the first three are good for me but my set-up requires a back bushing so that's it for me on that riser...


Well, it was unlikely anyway, with the general theme of your Hoyt related posts.


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## jmvargas

whiz-Oz said:


> Well, it was unlikely anyway, with the general theme of your Hoyt related posts.


......you obviously don't read all my posts...


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## Rooikat

*My thoughts in regards to the Formula RX*

I have read many comments in regards to the Formula RX on this blog and many other blogs that has left me pretty much confused. Some people seem to be engineers in this field with expert opinions. 
I took a long aluminium blade/bar and hold it between my thump and pointing finger at the one end. I slowly started to lift the bar and I could feel the pressure increase between my thumb and pointing finger. I moved my pointing finger a little bit forward to replicate what Hoyt has done with the limbs. I could feel the difference in pressure between my thumb and pointing finger. I repeated this exercise putting some pressure/bending the aluminium blade/bar. It was clear from this little exercise how the bend in the aluminium bar moves as you start to move your pointing finger away from the thumb. I could also feel how the pressure between my fingers varies as I started to move my pointing finger away from my thumb. In my humbled opinion I believe I understand what Hoyt has done. I think I like it and I can see/feel the advantages of this design. 
I know that compatibility might be a problem for some but for me personally; I just want a bow that will perform well and keep me competitive. I won’t change my gear if it works for me. Currently my current setup works well for me, but I strongly feel that there is a huge advantage to this new design. I will buy this bow and if it works for me, I will hang on to it for as long as I can. I don’t think I will change my gear (Formula RX) unless someone brings something revolutionary to the table that will outsmart what Hoyt has done. Personally I think this bow is going to be around for a long time and will make its mark in the competitive world. Last words: Get something that works for you and stick with it until there is something better that will improve your shooting radically. 

Regards

Rooikat:thumbs_up


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## scriv

Welcome to the party!


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## Borderbows

Rooikat said:


> I have read many comments in regards to the Formula RX on this blog and many other blogs that has left me pretty much confused. Some people seem to be engineers in this field with expert opinions.
> I took a long aluminium blade/bar and hold it between my thump and pointing finger at the one end. I slowly started to lift the bar and I could feel the pressure increase between my thumb and pointing finger. I moved my pointing finger a little bit forward to replicate what Hoyt has done with the limbs. I could feel the difference in pressure between my thumb and pointing finger. I repeated this exercise putting some pressure/bending the aluminium blade/bar. It was clear from this little exercise how the bend in the aluminium bar moves as you start to move your pointing finger away from the thumb. I could also feel how the pressure between my fingers varies as I started to move my pointing finger away from my thumb. In my humbled opinion I believe I understand what Hoyt has done. I think I like it and I can see/feel the advantages of this design.
> I know that compatibility might be a problem for some but for me personally; I just want a bow that will perform well and keep me competitive. I won’t change my gear if it works for me. Currently my current setup works well for me, but I strongly feel that there is a huge advantage to this new design. I will buy this bow and if it works for me, I will hang on to it for as long as I can. I don’t think I will change my gear (Formula RX) unless someone brings something revolutionary to the table that will outsmart what Hoyt has done. Personally I think this bow is going to be around for a long time and will make its mark in the competitive world. Last words: Get something that works for you and stick with it until there is something better that will improve your shooting radically.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rooikat:thumbs_up


What has hoyt done....
If the limb bolts didnt break or bend before. (on well deisgned bolts) then this pressure relief concept (if ive read you right) has achived nothing as fixing an issue that doesnt exist seems futile.
There is only one thing this bow has done. If you have slight slop in either the dovetail or limb "U" slot, then it will show less at the limb tip on an RX.
40% less based on the measurements.
now whether that 40% is worth a whole new bow, and limited limb options that can be out performed by near on all other limb makers in terms of speed.
then thats up to you to balance out.
Now... IF the Home riser, Home limbs fitted correctly in the first place, as it logically seems like a good plan. then the one stop shop for riser/limbs shouldnt need this tighter design plan?
You would think that a Hoyt riser and Hoyt limbs should fit snug... but seems to me, that hoyt are needing to tighten this up based on this 40% improvement? is that also a statement that could be assumed?


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## Rooikat

*Formula RX*

I am no expert but the 40% improvement (You have mentioned) seems to be possible because of the new design. To say this in a different way; if other manufactures would embrace this design they might have a significant improvement. To me logically this design makes sense. The fact that Hoyt tests has shown these improvements and the claims they have made can only be disputed by people that has the ability to prove their claims wrong. If they are to be proven wrong it will boil down to false advertising. I think the real question is: Do we trust the claims that Hoyt has made in regards to this new bow. Personally I trust their claims unless some engineer can prove otherwise.


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## Rooikat

*Riser/Limb Question*

Question One: 
If I get a 27in Riser and 68in Limbs – it will result in a 70in bow?
Question Two:
Can I use this combination 27in Riser and 68in Limbs?
Reason for the longer riser is: (Mind my terminology) I need a bigger site-window whilst aiming and have read – some where – a bigger riser will help do with that. 
Question Three:
If yes to question two, is this a known combination for archers?


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## whiz-Oz

1. Yes.
2. Yes. 
3. Due to the encroachment of the limbs into the riser space, the window of the 27inch Formula RX is similar to a standard 25" Hoyt Riser. 

So check carefully what your requirement is.


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## Rooikat

*Formula RX*

Thanks for your reply. 
I also had the following answer from Hoyt:
Thank you for the recent e-mail we received from you in regards to the Formula RX bow. We have had a lot of our top pro shooters switching to the longer riser and going to shorter limbs. Most shooter have found to get higher speeds 2-3 feet per second upgrade by shooting this configuration. The limbs are actually loading a little different and allow higher speeds. This speed difference is a pretty large upgrade as this has not changed for many years in the recurve world. I have been pretty fortunately to be able to shoot both configurations and like both set ups. The longer riser will be a little heavier as the material will weigh a little more. Most set up lengths are personal preference. It is really hard for us to choose a set up for someone. I wish I could be a little more help in this matter.
Alan
Alan Poole
International Customer Service Representative | Hoyt Archery
A: 543 N. Neil Armstrong Rd. | Salt Lake City, UT 84116
P: 801-433-4242 | F: 801-537-1470
W: hoyt.com | fusearchery.com


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## Rooikat

*Formula RX*

The issue I am sitting with on my current bow – Helix Hoyt – is that my clicker-bolt is in the way of my site on 40meters. I can hardly see the bul. I have to be very creative around this issue to get the arrows in the bul. Looking @ this photo (Thanks) that you have supplied doesn’t look like it will help my case getting a longer riser (Currently it is a 25in Riser with 990tx 70in limbs) – so from all the feedback I have had I know now that I have a 70in bow. I have a Sure-Lock site with the longer extension. My problem remains the clicker-bolt being in my way (Win&Win Clicker).If you have any recommendations – please let me know. 
I will buy this Formula RX next month and see how it goes. My draw length is 81.4cm. At the moment I am thinking to get a 27in Riser and 68in limbs. What do you think? However, I will hang on to my current bow for a little while before selling it – just in case. :sad:


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## Joe T

Rooikat said:


> The issue I am sitting with on my current bow – Helix Hoyt – is that my clicker-bolt is in the way of my site on 40meters. I can hardly see the bul. I have to be very creative around this issue to get the arrows in the bul.


If this is the case than you have a serious problem with your bow set up, or possibly your alignment - buying a new bow of any make is an expensive non solution. Maybe you can find a local knowledgeable archer who could help you out?

All manufacturers, whether its bows or can-openers, will claim their new product is "revolutionary", "new", "better" etc. All to be taken with a large pinch of salt.


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## Borderbows

If the riser is longer then the limbs must be shorter...
Shorter limbs have MASSIVE problems.
Its well known

Shorter limbs mess with vertical string stability. Stack quiker, and store less energy.

So yeah, im sure if i only told you the positives, you would think its the best thing ever too... But if i showed you the ugly side. then you might think twice.

If you keep the same overall riser length, then you will end up with a smaller sight window.
Woops. there are problems.

Hoyt havent compaired DFCS with the TX990/GMX setup, as far as ive seen... (might be wrong) If it makes a better bow. then where is the DFC?


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## tecshooter05

Rooikat said:


> The issue I am sitting with on my current bow – Helix Hoyt – is that my clicker-bolt is in the way of my site on 40meters. I can hardly see the bul. I have to be very creative around this issue to get the arrows in the bul. Looking @ this photo (Thanks) that you have supplied doesn’t look like it will help my case getting a longer riser (Currently it is a 25in Riser with 990tx 70in limbs) – so from all the feedback I have had I know now that I have a 70in bow. I have a Sure-Lock site with the longer extension. My problem remains the clicker-bolt being in my way (Win&Win Clicker).If you have any recommendations – please let me know.
> I will buy this Formula RX next month and see how it goes. My draw length is 81.4cm. At the moment I am thinking to get a 27in Riser and 68in limbs. What do you think? However, I will hang on to my current bow for a little while before selling it – just in case. :sad:


remove the black cap and insert just a small screw.


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## Borja1300

Borderbows said:


> If the riser is longer then the limbs must be shorter...
> Shorter limbs have MASSIVE problems.
> Its well known
> 
> Shorter limbs mess with vertical string stability. Stack quiker, and store less energy.
> 
> So yeah, im sure if i only told you the positives, you would think its the best thing ever too... But if i showed you the ugly side. then you might think twice.
> 
> If you keep the same overall riser length, then you will end up with a smaller sight window.
> Woops. there are problems.
> 
> Hoyt havent compaired DFCS with the TX990/GMX setup, as far as ive seen... (might be wrong) If it makes a better bow. then where is the DFC?


Excuse me, what's means DFC? 

Thank you


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## JDT_Dad

Borja1300 said:


> Excuse me, what's means DFC?
> 
> Thank you


I believe DFC = Draw Force Curve
Dave


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## st8arrow

I went with the 27" riser for the long sight window. I used short limbs to achieve a 68" bow. I'm very happy with the resulting set-up --faster & quieter than my 990CX's on the GMX. Stacking isn't an issue at my 29" draw.

To answer your question...you can use the 27" riser and go with medium limbs to get a 70" bow.

Tecshooter is right---just switch to a round headed allen screw, and don't use the plastic knob/cap---problem is solved.


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## Rooikat

*Formula RX*

Thank you all for your feedback. helped allot. Here is the latest reply from Hoyt I had:

If you intend to use the 27" riser with the medium limbs you will have an overall length bow of 70". This will also allow you to have a larger sight window. We have had many shooters changing to the longer riser with shorter limbs and they are having great results. 
Alan Poole
International Customer Service Representative | Hoyt Archery
A: 543 N. Neil Armstrong Rd. | Salt Lake City, UT 84116

I think I am going for the 70in bow  long riser medium limbs. In the meantime I will follow the advise replacing the black-knob with a screw. Thanks guys :thumbs_up


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## Aspirin Buster

*Formula RX*

I posted some posts earlier this year about loving the Formula RX bows. Here's a photo of my 2010 stage bows. 

If you missed it, here is a video I filmed with Hoyt's Douglas Denton, designer of the bow, at the 2010 ATA Show:

http://www.bowtube.com/media/778/AspirinBuster_At_Hoyt/

These bows are something!


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