# Shot timing.



## Thepeopleshamer (Mar 1, 2009)

Let me start by thanking all these coaches for taking the time to help all of us out F.O.C.

I have been told by a couple people that my shot takes a little to long to go off. And these are peope with a vast knowledge of archery. I have been focusing on getting my shot off in under 7 seconds for my past few sessions. And it feels good to not be getting hung up on the release. But iam having trouble getting a good sight picture in thus amount of time and my shooting has gone down hill. Now I know you get worse before you get better. But am wondering if iam doing the right thing by focusing on timing so much and will it be worth all the work in the long run?

Thanks again


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

This an interesting topic and one I think is being mis-interpreted.

People find if their shot goes off between a certain number of seconds their arrows hit the middle. Shots which are shot in less or more than the "ideal" time are less likely to be in the middle. 
What you should be doing is to find out what prevents the shot from flowing smoothly. By that I mean when you shoot in that magic band of time the shot flows smoothly. Its easy. Most shots which are not so good are the ones which take more time to "go off".

To make a good shot you must follow your shot sequence and not be concerned by the time. As you master your shot sequence, train your subconscious to shoot the bow the shots should begin to flow smoothly.

Most people get hung up on the aiming bit, trying to get that sight picture right. This is where the time gets eaten up and people fight the natural motion of their sight.

What I would do is ignore the time and work on your shot sequence. Focussing on shooting in a certain time will destroy your shooting.

By the sounds of things you need to change how you aim. Unless you have an equipment or form issue it shouldn't take long to get your sight picture sorted.
If you saw the Vegas shoot-off the frenchman was really stuck on his sight picture and the pressure of winning and took an age to shoot. 

Somewhere you are getting stuck in your shot sequence and your conscious mind is not allowing you to progress.


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

Being at full draw for 8 seconds would not be the end of the world, but 5 to 7 seconds is optimal for the best shot.
Holding for 20 seconds is definitely not the best option... for a number of reasons.

The first and foremost reason is... human beings have a very hard time totally concentrating on one thing for more than 5-10 seconds. If your mind drifts, the arrow will follow.
Another reason... just like a rifle shooter, you should be holding your breath at the moment of release. Your brain can only last a few seconds without oxygen before your vision starts to fade.
One more reason.... muscle tension will tend to build up the longer you are at full draw. Tension is never good. Also, form collapse and/or creep can become a problem.

Even worse than holding at full draw for too long is... varying your hold time. Your hold time should be very nearly the same from one shot to the next. 

It is worth working on... and it isn't hard to fix. 
People tend to waste the most amount of time at the beginning of their sequence.... drawing off target and then moving the sight to find the spot. Then they get around to focusing on the target.
The position of your bow, arms and body should already be established before the string comes back. Draw straight back with the sight already on the target.
Concentration on the exact spot you want to hit should already be established before you draw the bow.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Excellent posts from Rugby & da white shoe!!

I agree with Rugby that you should try to find out why your shot is taking so long. Shooting a bow is a simple thing and hanging up at full draw for a long time is a recipe for bad habits. It gives your conscious mind time to screw it up. And that running out of air thing that Zane mentioned usually leads to rushing the shot as vision fades.

One thing that helps, is to be sure that when you draw, you are on the X immediately. Don't draw high, low or to one side. When you get to anchor and first look through your sight, you should see the X. Coming into the X from somewhere else is an unnecessary step and decreases stability.

Also, your execution should be a simple continuation of your draw. Too many archers draw their bow with one set of muscles and run the shot with another set. You have to involve arms and shoulders to start the draw, but transfer the load to your back muscles as soon into the draw as possible. Then without any relaxation of your back, and using the same muscles, pull through to follow-through. 

One of the better shooters at my club regularly shot in the high 50 X's and had the long hold that you describe. He is a very powerful man and has the strength and endurance to make a long hold work for him. Unfortunately, his hold time got longer and longer. One end when we were on the line together, I shot 3 arrows in the time it took him to shoot one. It finally got to the point where he couldn't finish a shot. I haven't seen him in several years & don't think he shoots any more.

There is the rule to "not let yourself shoot a bad shot". The solution to a shot going bad is to let down, not fight through it.

The great coach, Len Cardinale talks about shots that are "less than". A "less than" is a shot where some part of the shot was not the same as your shot sequence. The great thing about "less thans" is that they tell you what part of your shot that you don't trust to run subconsciously. It reveals what specific part of your shot that needs the most work. Holding too long is often because there is some part of your shot that you don't trust to run subconsciously. Figure out what that is and you will know what you need spend the most time on in practice. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

One other thing occured to me. Do you take the same amount of time for your shot to develop in practice as in competition?

If the practice hold time is much less than the competition hold time, you are focusing on score too much. Refocus on shooting a good shot. The scores will follow.

Allen


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Thepeopleshamer said:


> Let me start by thanking all these coaches for taking the time to help all of us out F.O.C.
> 
> I have been told by a couple people that my shot takes a little to long to go off. And these are peope with a vast knowledge of archery. I have been focusing on getting my shot off in under 7 seconds for my past few sessions. And it feels good to not be getting hung up on the release. But iam having trouble getting a good sight picture in thus amount of time and my shooting has gone down hill. Now I know you get worse before you get better. But am wondering if iam doing the right thing by focusing on timing so much and will it be worth all the work in the long run?
> 
> Thanks again


Shot timing.

Send a pm to 137ftdeep.

He had been shooting for all of 30 days, when he came to my seminar at Shingle Springs, CA
at Absolute Archery.

So,
he was doing EXACTLY like you.

Spending a LOOONG time, trying to get his SIGHT picture perfect,
micro adjusting his bow hand up
no, NOPE..not quite right

micro adjusting his bow hand left
no, NOPE..not quite right..almost, but not QUITE

micro adjusting his bow hand down
no, NOPE..not quite right..almost, no, nooo, just about there

micro adjusting his bow hand back up
no, NOPE..not quite right...nearly there....

oopps,
running out of steam,
no more air mmmmmust breathe...ok.nope..wait just a SEC....POW.

whew!

So,
I tell 137ftdeep,
that I want to change his shot, COMPLETELY.

STEP 1....raise your hand, the bow hand HIGH enough to BLOCK your VIEW of the spot, with your sight, BEFORE you even START to pull back the d-loop.
do NOT start ABOVE the target face...(the dreaded SKY DRAW)
do NOT start BELOW the target face....

just raise your bow hand so that the PINS, all the PINS block your view of the target...(assumes shoulder height x-ring)

STEP 2...CONTINUE To BLOCK your view of the target, while you pull the d-loop back to your anchor

STEP 3...IMMEDIATELY pull the d-loop back so that you are holding 3 POUNDS MORE PRESSURE than holding weight, and MAINTAIN this HEAVY HIGHER than holding weight pressure

STEP 4..the INSTANT your release hand TOUCHES your FACE..I START the count...ONE-ONE-THOUSAND...TWO-ONE-THOUSAND..THREE-ONE-THOUSAND...*FIRE>>FIRE>>FIRE*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

No messing around.
No time to analyze.
No time to THINK.

Just REACT.

Your MIND is EXTREMELY good at centering round objects inside round objects.

So,
I had 137ftdeep fire his FIRST shot,
this way,
when I did the VERBAL shot clock FOR HIM,
and did not GIVE him TIME to THINK
and did not GIVE him TIME to ANALYZE...

and only gave him a THREE COUNT,
from the INSTANT he touched his face,
and then I commanded him to *FIRE>>FIRE>>>FIRE*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Under STRESS,
under SHORT time frames to RESPOND,
then,
your subconscious takes over
and your body goes into INSTINCTIVE mode.

I had 137ftdeep fire THREE shots,
under LIVE FIRE, DIRECT COMMAND mode.

(insert LOUD voice).
I told him to imagine that he was a F-16 fighter pilot,
and shooting missiles over the horizon.

So,
focus,
short duration,
STRESS,
gets the adrenaline going.

This was COMPLETELY different than
what he had been doing for the two day seminar.

He couldn't see the target very well,
forgot his glasses or something or other.

He asked me,
WHERE DID THE FIRST SHOT GO?

I said, doesn't matter.

Told him to block his view of the target again,
with the pin sight,
and then PROCEED to draw your weapon.

After his hand touched his face,
ONE-ONE-THOUSAND
TWO-ONE-THOUSAND
THREE-ONE-THOUSAND...*FIRE>>FIRE>>>FIRE.*

second missile LAUNCHED.

Repeated this process,
create stress,
create urgency
give 137ftdeep NO TIME TO THINK...
just time to EXECUTE.

*FIRE>>>FIRE>>>>FIRE.*

Missile #3 is away.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
whaddya think happened?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Split his nock,
cracked the back end of the shaft.

This,
for someone who purchased a box store bow,
just 30 days ago,
where...

at the beginning of the 2-day seminar,
he was spraying the arrow from EDGE to EDGE of the target face.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Mental training.
Bow tuning.
Posture

Absolute Archery built a new string, on the spot for 137ftdeep, cuz the original string was soooo poor.

TURNING OFF your brain,
is the primary thing I wanted 137ftdeep to learn.

Urgency,
helped to turn his brain off.

Cuz of the short time frame I gave 137ftdeep,
he HAD to be more aggressive,
in the shot process,
and
confidence or lack of confidence became immaterial,
cuz I gave him a THREE COUNT, for his new SHOT clock,
from the INSTANT he touches his hand to his face.

ZERO wasted time getting TO "TARGET LOCK", 
cuz I had him block his view of the target.

ZERO wasted time getting to firing position,
cuz I had him IMMEDIATELY get to 3 POUNDS HEAVIER than holding weight,
so he was PRIMED, all SYSTEMS HOT,
when his hand touched his face.

NO time to think.
ONLY enough time to nail the FIRING switch,
and bombs away.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Is he still grouping that well now?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rugby said:


> Is he still grouping that well now?


Send him a pm
and ask him.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Hi Nuts and Bolts,
Looking at your coaching of 137ftdeep you appear to have instructing him to “command” shoot (FIRE>> FIRE>>> FIRE).
Is that right or am I missing something here?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Rugby said:


> Hi Nuts and Bolts,
> Looking at your coaching of 137ftdeep you appear to have instructing him to “command” shoot (FIRE>> FIRE>>> FIRE).
> Is that right or am I missing something here?


That was also my first impression when I read this--although, I do not believe that was the intent. Perhaps a little more clarification is in order here, so people do not start command-firing their releases (which is VERY easy to do) based on this recommendation.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

There is a huge difference between a punched shot and a strong, determined shot. Some even call it an aggressive shot. It sounds like the student in question was simply too timid with his shot and was focusing on score and not shot execution. I can see pushing the student to quit calibrating and shoot the shot.

However, you guys are right, if the student isn't carefully coached, it could turn into punching.

Allen


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## Thepeopleshamer (Mar 1, 2009)

amazing informatoin thank you all for taking the time to answer this topic so indepth. I have set my release as to set the clicker as soon as I hit anchor and get setteled in. With my holding pressure even with pure focus my shot is off in under 7 sec. anything past that I have been letting down. Or if I shoot a shot that dosent feel like it was exicuted perfectly to me. I'll shoot 10 shots on the blank bail as a punishment for letting myself shoot a bad shot insted of letting down and resetting .thanks again all for your adviise it is helping people like me tremendously


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rugby said:


> Hi Nuts and Bolts,
> Looking at your coaching of 137ftdeep you appear to have instructing him to “command” shoot (FIRE>> FIRE>>> FIRE).
> Is that right or am I missing something here?


Quite the opposite.
137free was over-thinking.
137ftdeep was trying to control his float. 
I wanted 137ftdeep to stop Thinking.

I wanted 137ftdeep to get to a subconscious shot
a shot which is muscle memory based.

Soooo if you work with a student who carefully aims high
SOooo if you work with a student who wants to control the shot
soooo if you work with a student who fine tuned the bow hand a little bit more up
soooo then your student fine tuned the bow hand a little bit more down
soooo then your student fine tuned the bow a little bit more left
soooo then your student fine tuned the bow a little bit more right

Control personality
over thinker
wants perfection in the sight picture
indecisive
taking a massive amount of time


Soooo
with THIS PERSONALITY...
a newbie perfectionist way over thinking personality....

Create stress
turn his shot clock completely upside down
give the shooter a more direct approach

Have the shooter block his view of the spot when
raising the bow arm....before pulling the d-loop.

Take away any aspects of CONTROL


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Blocking his view of the target spot with the entire pin sight
BEFORE pulling back the d-loop
is a more compact motion
a more energy efficient motion
and
MOST IMPORTANTLY

Does NOT allow the OVER THINKING shooter to OVER AIM

CREATES a sense of OUT OF MY CONTROL
which is exactly the Mental Response I was looking for.

It Delays any CONTROL SEQUENCE cuz Shooter
cannot see the spot....
his VISUAL CONTROL TRACKING System cannot engage


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Soooo once his hand touches his face....
his "normal shot routine" would take a tremendous amount of time.

Sooo once his release hand made contact with his face....
I started a slow three count.

Then said "FIRE".

HE SAID he had no time to "AIM".


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

What he meant to say...
I gave him no time to THINK.


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

Following


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