# Issue with short range training?



## EPLC

Approximately 3 weeks ago I was shooting a consistent 295-297 Vegas, now after shooting at 10-15 yards I seem to have regressed. This has been my experience with short range training for a long, long time. I can shoot almost perfect (29-30X) at 10 yards and a consistent 297-299 at 15 yards. Now that I'm back shooting at 20 I'm struggling. There are those that will say that I move back too soon, and while this may have some merit, my question is: Why do I regress after shooting short range?


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## N7709K

Because what you are working on at close range isn't learned well enough to be carried straight back to scoring at 20yds.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Because what you are working on at close range isn't learned well enough to be carried straight back to scoring at 20yds.


I agree that this would be the issue if I were just having difficulty bringing what I had learned from one distance to the next but this problem is different. I tend to regress at longer distances after shooting short range even for a day or so.


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## ron w

at 20 yards you are trying to over control your float because the x-ring got small enough to trigger that function. basically, you're trying too hard to duplicate the scores you get at the shorter distances.


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## bigHUN

I have experienced the opposite....
I like to shoot long distance (either outdoor or indoor) and practice 65% at 70M and about 20% at 50M....occasionally come down to 30M and just got scared from the picture I am seeing in my scope....the ring is soo close in my face that Im getting nervous.....so, when I am there in my X-ring I blur my vision meaning I don't watch neither my pin/dot or the ring further just feel that position...and execute....
There are many theories about practicing short vs long distances, I believe the distance doesn't really matter, the ring have a center regardless how far out is....
At 20 or below, if you train for a "feel" you can take out the pin/dot/scope completely and just shooting a blank you can get as tight group same as with the pin/dot/scope....


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## SonnyThomas

Well, I like shooting nearer to the average distance of what 3D is for me in ASA events, 25 and 35 yards. Move up to 20 yard and that 5 spot is kind of big.....And then it's overcoming that dang "chip shot" thing which is rushing the shot. I even use the 20 yard spot out to 50 yards. Doesn't bother me a bit to shoot it from 80 yards.


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## possum trapper

Like ive said many times in the past......you may think your executing good at close range but you truly don't know.

Now if your having issues with being a little jumpy or quick on execution or just struggling in sight picture like if you have been shooting in wind and you want to settle back down by all means go up close.

but if your shooting decent scores and your just not getting great shots off up close may not work for you because its too easy to execute up close.

step back futher and then execute shots.55yrds and futher will show flaws like no other yardage will.

there is a fine line for what works for one person to the next.Its simple if up close works for you keep on doing it.If it doesn't don't.No one can really tell you what works for you they can only give you recommendations on what to try.Its up to you to getRdone and figure it out.

and for some guys its probably not gonna happen.No matter how hard they try and practice just because the mental and physical just isn't there.
and some people just listen to their coach and preach what they say.
If the coaches were correct all the time wouldn't everyone be standing in line at their doors and a lot more perfect scores would be getting shot at major tourneys and that's just not the case


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## aread

EPLC said:


> ... Why do I regress after shooting short range?


Added distance equals added stress. As you increase the distance, even a couple of yards, you feel added stress. 

You learn and master a part of your form at 10 yards at a 10 yard level of stress. 

Then you move to 15 yards. 

At 15 yards, it's difficult to repeat that part of your form because the stress level has increased. 

Of course this stress is all in our heads. If we could shoot our shot regardless of the level of perceived stress, we would be on the line competing with Reo.

When moving back from any training distance, the idea is to move back only in increments where you don't feel additional stress. And continue at that new distance only so long as you can shoot your shot with no additional felt stress. If you can hold your form for a dozen shots, then have a bad shot, that means that you haven't completely learned what you needed to at the shorter distance. It also means that, after a bad shot, you should quit shooting for at least a half hour break, then start back at the shorter distance.

For me, the maximum distance I can step back an still keep what I learned on the short distance is about 1 to 2 yards. If I'm trying to work on something that's pretty simple, I can step back 2 yards. If it's something that is either a big change or more complicated, the maximum for me is 1 yard.

I've noticed from your posts that you really aren't sold on short range and blank bale shooting. You seem to want results much more quickly than is possible with any training technique that I know about. This technique can take a very long time and require a level of discipline that most of us don't have. I know that I don't have the discipline it takes or I would already have reached my archery goals. It usually requires support from someone who can keep us focused on shooting a good shot. Fortunately, this year I have that support and I'm seeing some real results. 

If you don't believe in and commit to short range shooting, you won't be successful with it.

Allen


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## Padgett

My thing is something has to change, there is something in your approach to shooting right now that is hurting you and you are continuing to do it over and over and it simply isn't working. It could be your form or your mental approach or your firing method, I personally think that it is your back tension. I think I sent you a pm a week or so ago and talked about it, I know that shooting with pure back tension is important to you but it may be the problem. 

In the last week I have been working on my firing engines and the ones where I use more back tension and less rotation in the hand or yielding are very strong feeling but the problem with them is that there is no give in the hand and as you increase the back tension the lack of give in the hand allows you to pull off the x. So even though I shoot really strong and feel great with back tension I find myself pulling off of the x way more often. 

When I shoot with a rotation firing engine or a yield firing engine I use the back tension as a tool to remain solid and as that tension pulls into the wall the yield or rotation that i am using allows the pin to remain smooth and solid on the x.

Again, what you are doing isn't working and you have many months and years spent doing it so stopping right now and doing something completely different isn't going to kill you and might lead you into another direction. In the end you may end up back shooting with pure back tension but you may move on to something that allows you to achieve your goals.


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## EPLC

aread said:


> Added distance equals added stress. As you increase the distance, even a couple of yards, you feel added stress.
> 
> You learn and master a part of your form at 10 yards at a 10 yard level of stress.
> 
> Then you move to 15 yards.
> 
> At 15 yards, it's difficult to repeat that part of your form because the stress level has increased.
> 
> Of course this stress is all in our heads. If we could shoot our shot regardless of the level of perceived stress, we would be on the line competing with Reo.
> 
> When moving back from any training distance, the idea is to move back only in increments where you don't feel additional stress. And continue at that new distance only so long as you can shoot your shot with no additional felt stress. If you can hold your form for a dozen shots, then have a bad shot, that means that you haven't completely learned what you needed to at the shorter distance. It also means that, after a bad shot, you should quit shooting for at least a half hour break, then start back at the shorter distance.
> 
> For me, the maximum distance I can step back an still keep what I learned on the short distance is about 1 to 2 yards. If I'm trying to work on something that's pretty simple, I can step back 2 yards. If it's something that is either a big change or more complicated, the maximum for me is 1 yard.
> 
> I've noticed from your posts that you really aren't sold on short range and blank bale shooting. You seem to want results much more quickly than is possible with any training technique that I know about. This technique can take a very long time and require a level of discipline that most of us don't have. I know that I don't have the discipline it takes or I would already have reached my archery goals. It usually requires support from someone who can keep us focused on shooting a good shot. Fortunately, this year I have that support and I'm seeing some real results.
> 
> If you don't believe in and commit to short range shooting, you won't be successful with it.
> 
> Allen


It's possible that short range shooting just may not be the answer for me. I shoot mostly field archery during the spring, summer and early fall. Shooting the 15-25 yard targets I don't miss a lot. When field comes to an end I move indoors and the 20 yard shooting seems pretty easy. In early October I shot a personal best with a 445 25X Vegas 450 round. Up until 3 weeks ago I was shooting decent, 295-297 on the Vegas 300 round. Now I'm not and wondering why? 



Padgett said:


> My thing is something has to change, there is something in your approach to shooting right now that is hurting you and you are continuing to do it over and over and it simply isn't working. It could be your form or your mental approach or your firing method, I personally think that it is your back tension. I think I sent you a pm a week or so ago and talked about it, I know that shooting with pure back tension is important to you but it may be the problem.
> 
> In the last week I have been working on my firing engines and the ones where I use more back tension and less rotation in the hand or yielding are very strong feeling but the problem with them is that there is no give in the hand and as you increase the back tension the lack of give in the hand allows you to pull off the x. So even though I shoot really strong and feel great with back tension I find myself pulling off of the x way more often.
> 
> When I shoot with a rotation firing engine or a yield firing engine I use the back tension as a tool to remain solid and as that tension pulls into the wall the yield or rotation that i am using allows the pin to remain smooth and solid on the x.
> 
> Again, what you are doing isn't working and you have many months and years spent doing it so stopping right now and doing something completely different isn't going to kill you and might lead you into another direction. In the end you may end up back shooting with pure back tension but you may move on to something that allows you to achieve your goals.


It may be a simple matter of control. When I switched from RH to LH my release hand was dumb as a stump and I had two very good seasons. I could just pull through the shot because that's all my left hand was capable of doing. After shooting for a while my left hand has become much smarter, perhaps this is part of the problem. 

That said; in spite of any issues I may or may not have I was shooting reasonably well at 20 yards, moved back to 10-15 yards for 3 weeks and now am shooting worst than I was at 20. This is nothing new, it has been a constant. Back when I shot RH I did a lot of short range training, shot perfect games out to 15 yards. Even then I was never able to make the transition out to 20... It is possible that I've not been able to dedicate enough time to do this properly due to a never ending shooting schedule. The result is I just don't have a lot of faith in this method and not having that faith makes me reluctant to dedicate any substantial amount of time to do it. I think a good coach would help but there are none in this area at the level I would require to be of any help.


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## N7709K

You aren't bring back what you are working on up close... Not in the sense that you are sticking with what is being worked on up close. Before you can try to enact what you are learning up close at longer ranges for score it needs to be learned; as you learn a new skill scores drop, as scores drop at 20yds the shooter gives up on the process working because the scores dropped. 

Stay up close and learn the shot; if you gotta shoot 20yds, ya gotta shoot it but take it for what it is knowing that what is of importance is the foundation you are building up close. After your foundation is set and you work the shot back slowly the scores you want will be there.


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## Padgett

I feel your pain, this teach yourself thing takes so many years of wasted time. I feel like the answers are right in front of us and having a coach to point them out would be so awesome but day after day year after year I find myself on my own trying to coach myself.

Most of my breakthroughs happen in motel rooms at asa events when I get to spend time with my buddies Sam Woltius and Blake Allen. They are better than me and just talking to them over the weekend is where I get better more than anything else and they aren't even my coach, they are just shooters. I can't even imagine what it would feel like to have a good coach who could actually watch me on a daily basis and work with me.


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## Padgett

To me shooting with n7709k on a weekly or daily basis would be such a positive thing, he is the type of guy that can put up scores and obviously has strong training habits and shooting with him would really open my eyes to his strong points. Then it would be my job as a shooter to find a way to incorporate them into my bag of tricks.

My buddy Sam is more of a leader by example, he just pounds the center of the x ring over and over and you find yourself watching him do his thing and when he does talk about shooting it is very straight forward and simple. 97709k to me would be even more valuable because he is more opinionated and open about his training and shooting with him would more than likely be really really valuable.


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## Lazarus

possum trapper said:


> Like ive said many times in the past......you may think your executing good at close range but you truly don't know.
> 
> Now if your having issues with being a little jumpy or quick on execution or just struggling in sight picture like if you have been shooting in wind and you want to settle back down by all means go up close.
> 
> but if your shooting decent scores and your just not getting great shots off up close may not work for you because its too easy to execute up close.
> 
> step back futher and then execute shots.55yrds and futher will show flaws like no other yardage will.
> 
> there is a fine line for what works for one person to the next.Its simple if up close works for you keep on doing it.If it doesn't don't. *No one can really tell you what works for you they can only give you recommendations on what to try.Its up to you to getRdone and figure it out.*
> 
> and for some guys its probably not gonna happen.No matter how hard they try and practice just because the mental and physical just isn't there.
> and some people just listen to their coach and preach what they say.
> If the coaches were correct all the time wouldn't everyone be standing in line at their doors and a lot more perfect scores would be getting shot at major tourneys and that's just not the case


Great post. Burried. No accolades. Best post of the topic. 

I was talking to a gentleman about an hour ago, the most decorated US Archer in history. We were talking about the "mental" aspect of the game which we do often. He said almost the same things as this post says. It was an interesting conversation. Wish I could play it back in my head verbatim. Guess I'll just have to read the book.


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## SonnyThomas

Lead up.
Today, Election Day. Making it nice is Tim's archery shop not a block away from the voting poll  But then Tim's indoor range is not the best in the world. 18 yards is max. Lighting sucks. Four makes for a line. To have five one would hope all use deodorant. Get the picture? The target wall is well lighted, no light at the mid range length. Them ^%#^$^&% curled energy efficient junk light bulbs where you stand. The light is too direct over head to give good light to your pin. My red pin looks like a dark gray tiny dot.
Short range practice by all accounts, in this forum, is perfection of the execution of the shot. Tim has a 18 yard not so good practice range, but I'm going to use it regardless and I did use it today. I used what I believed the best line of sight, the lower right target of a 5 spot. I forgot my camera and don't have a clue how to down load the picture I took with my phone. 32 shot results; all in the bull's eye, vertical stringing on the right edge of the X ring from bottom to the top. 2 shots went high right in the same hole, but in the bull's eye - I didn't let the pin stop. Envision a black oval hole 1 1/2" high and no more than two arrow widths wide - .355 X 2 = .710". Considering the conditions, what's wrong with that?

Iron Man; "Jarvis, sometimes you have to run before you can walk." Poor comparison, but having some truth.


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## ILOVE3D

Question EPLC, are you using the same lens(magnification) up close as well as 20 yards and if so, do you use the same dot or are you using a pin. I find I group and shoot much better if my dot covers the 10 ring and not much more. If it covers say just the x the holes mess me up especially if I start out with one low or off to one side just a bit. If the dot is too large it covers too much of the gold for me and I find it harder to keep the dot in the middle. Just wondering if this is a common problem or what do you do at the different distances?


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## EPLC

ILOVE3D said:


> Question EPLC, are you using the same lens(magnification) up close as well as 20 yards and if so, do you use the same dot or are you using a pin. I find I group and shoot much better if my dot covers the 10 ring and not much more. If it covers say just the x the holes mess me up especially if I start out with one low or off to one side just a bit. If the dot is too large it covers too much of the gold for me and I find it harder to keep the dot in the middle. Just wondering if this is a common problem or what do you do at the different distances?


Neither dot nor pin... and it's a 6X for all.


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## ron w

can you find a peep size, that leaves the sight picture just a bit fuzzy, not crystal clear and sharply defined ?. 
I use a 4 power without a clarifier, and my eyesight leaves the pic just a bit out of focus, I like it that way for the same reason....it keeps me from gazing around at all the holes, yet gives enough definition, that it's not hard to acquire the x-ring. I discovered this when I switched to a ring, because I was moving the dot to see the x-ring.


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## SonnyThomas

ron, a tip I've heard before, having the target a bit fuzzy, perhaps a softer image. And I do that. Often I'm asked if I ever clean my scope lens. What for? I can see.


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## Tow-Mater

Im no pro I have had the same thing happen to me on short practice moving out to 20yd . What ihave done is when I hit 15 yds I move back only 1 yd at a time that seems to work for me I know everyone is different but instead of jumping 5 yds which for me wreaks havoc on my brain that 1 yd increment seems to work because im not shocking my systems that fast


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## EPLC

Tow-Mater said:


> Im no pro I have had the same thing happen to me on short practice moving out to 20yd . What ihave done is when I hit 15 yds I move back only 1 yd at a time that seems to work for me I know everyone is different but instead of jumping 5 yds which for me wreaks havoc on my brain that 1 yd increment seems to work because im not shocking my systems that fast


I honestly haven't tried that, mostly due to I only have 14 yards in my basement and it's difficult at the club because of other shooters. I'll see if I can work something out to try this. I'm also thinking that this may not be a distance thing at all. When I tried to shoot short again yesterday I wasn't very sharp there either. Historically I tend to do this, even back when I shot righty. I'll shoot good for a period of time and then I can't do it. It's like I forget how to do it and it can happen in a heartbeat. The problem may be that I just do not have a good definition of what the good shot feels like. When I'm doing it its great, when I'm not I haven't a clue and can't repeat.


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## Joe Schnur

We use the portable youth bale and you can slowly increase yardage till you hit 20


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## SonnyThomas

Really covering the bases, but for one thing, transferring the shot, one shot on the blank bale, one shot on the target. Same thing, one shot from short distance and one shot from the longer distance.

And then we hope our arrows behave all the way to the target. Some do, some don't. Say good out 8 to 10 yards, get goofy from 10 to 12, don't really settle down until after 12 or maybe even 15 yards.

And beating yourself to death wanting that 300 30X is no more than perfect right/left, and height. Execution the main objective, shooting leveled lines my help. Try keeping your arrow on a 1/2" wide line 30 times may show something. That do each separately allows concentration for just that line. I do try to when French tuning, short range or as far out as I can shoot and stay on the target stop/bag.


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## SonnyThomas

Picture loading problems, but 9 to 10 feet and 30 yards and then either 50 or 55 yards and 30 horizontal.


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## ron w

EPLC my buddy, 
i'm afraid you're far to swallowed up with score, to let anything be the driver that steers your efforts.


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## midstatearchery

Have you ever tried using scaled targets that way you can shoot at 14 yards but simulate distance changes by changing the ring sizes?


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## N7709K

Padgett said:


> To me shooting with n7709k on a weekly or daily basis would be such a positive thing, he is the type of guy that can put up scores and obviously has strong training habits and shooting with him would really open my eyes to his strong points. Then it would be my job as a shooter to find a way to incorporate them into my bag of tricks.
> 
> My buddy Sam is more of a leader by example, he just pounds the center of the x ring over and over and you find yourself watching him do his thing and when he does talk about shooting it is very straight forward and simple. 97709k to me would be even more valuable because he is more opinionated and open about his training and shooting with him would more than likely be really really valuable.


in the short term i'd leave much to be desired from just shooting with me or training with me; I have my routine that I run and thats just what I do.... Some days when i'm working on a specific issue i'll actually train now adays and put a couple hundred or more arrows down range but normally its 60 and then some on a blank bale. I'm also pretty quiet when it comes to what I have going on with my shot process or my rig; I'll peg the cam and start twisting cables and string on the line after shooting the first two arrows, give er a few clicks, and pop the last one.... if i'm at the feel i'm looking for i'll leave it, if not i'll work the harness again then pull. 

Long term there are a bunch of tricks that can be learned and some good tuning shortcuts to bring a setup to where it should be in a very short order.... but at times i'll make it just look too simple and too easy; just part of shooting the same shot for so long and being able to isolate the equip part.




EPLC said:


> I honestly haven't tried that, mostly due to I only have 14 yards in my basement and it's difficult at the club because of other shooters. I'll see if I can work something out to try this. I'm also thinking that this may not be a distance thing at all. When I tried to shoot short again yesterday I wasn't very sharp there either. Historically I tend to do this, even back when I shot righty. I'll shoot good for a period of time and then I can't do it. It's like I forget how to do it and it can happen in a heartbeat. The problem may be that I just do not have a good definition of what the good shot feels like. When I'm doing it its great, when I'm not I haven't a clue and can't repeat.


Have you had that one shot that just felt different? everything was relaxed and settled; you didn't need to try to put the arrow in the middle, it just went? There is a moment when you shoot THE shot that you know what to strive for; might have happened already, might be yet to happen... thats your call. When it does happen, shoot every shot in the effort to recreate or make THE shot even better... Shoot lots of blank bale getting the feel for the shots you are shooting and making the shots smooth. After things are working and things are smooth then start working on bringing everything full circle and into scoring. You've got leagues, etc while this is happening and thats fine-- but don't put the effort on shooting a perfect score; make it about shooting good shots. The first few weeks are gonna be rough but you'll get back to your average and then you'll move to above your average...


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Have you had that one shot that just felt different? everything was relaxed and settled; you didn't need to try to put the arrow in the middle, it just went? There is a moment when you shoot THE shot that you know what to strive for; might have happened already, might be yet to happen... thats your call. When it does happen, shoot every shot in the effort to recreate or make THE shot even better... Shoot lots of blank bale getting the feel for the shots you are shooting and making the shots smooth. After things are working and things are smooth then start working on bringing everything full circle and into scoring. You've got leagues, etc while this is happening and thats fine-- but don't put the effort on shooting a perfect score; make it about shooting good shots. The first few weeks are gonna be rough but you'll get back to your average and then you'll move to above your average...


Yes, I have lots of... "THE shot that you know what to strive for;". The "you know what to strive for;" part is where the problem is. I'll make a shot, or a series of shots like that and as soon as I say, "Wow, I need to do that again", I loose whatever it was I was doing. Last night my league started with a 450 Vegas round. I didn't have many, if any, of those shots. Lots of 29 ends and I scored 434 18X for the shoot but it felt more like 424 to be honest. Last night I could only muster up 2 decent shots per end and only had three 30 ends for the entire round, although I got better in the second half.


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## SonnyThomas

So a person gives all to the shot, not thinking of anything, and then doing so well tries harder and..... Yep, it happens. Sorting out what you did trying harder is what to figure out. Just exampling; Did you refine the sight picture, make it perfectly centered where before you just looked down range and shot? Anchor a little bit more refined instead of without thought? I've been there as in "what the heck am I doing wrong?" Force it and it gets worse. Sit down, take a break or do something that moves the mind out of the way or just give up and fling arrows and then just start killing the bonus or X ring....And then you can't figure out what you're doing right


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## EPLC

After looking at my 22 week league scores over the past 7 seasons since switching to lefty I've averaged 433 for the entire span. My two highest averages were in 09' and 12' with 437 and 436. Last year was 433 and my worst over that span was 429 & 430 in 10' & 11'. I'd like to get my average up around 440 this season and feel that it is doable. I know I can shoot much better than the 434 I shot last night.


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## Fury90flier

quit scoring at close range...either you hit your dot or you don't. Go get yourself some 1" sticky dots and shoot 1 arrow per dot.

This will force you to change the way you think. Right now you're focus is all wrong.

Question....how many arrows do you shoot in a session.


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> Yes, I have lots of... "THE shot that you know what to strive for;"


not good shots... but THE shot; the single best shot you have ever shot. Do you know what the best shot you have run felt like?




EPLC said:


> After looking at my 22 week league scores over the past 7 seasons since switching to lefty I've averaged 433 for the entire span. My two highest averages were in 09' and 12' with 437 and 436. Last year was 433 and my worst over that span was 429 & 430 in 10' & 11'. I'd like to get my average up around 440 this season and feel that it is doable. I know I can shoot much better than the 434 I shot last night.


how do you want to get to the 440 average and is that your end goal?


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## EPLC

Fury90flier said:


> quit scoring at close range...either you hit your dot or you don't. Go get yourself some 1" sticky dots and shoot 1 arrow per dot.
> 
> This will force you to change the way you think. Right now you're focus is all wrong.
> 
> Question....how many arrows do you shoot in a session.


It varies but generally quite a few.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> not good shots... but THE shot; the single best shot you have ever shot. Do you know what the best shot you have run felt like?
> 
> how do you want to get to the 440 average and is that your end goal?


1. I know it when it happens but have difficulty retaining the feeling. It's like my subconscious is keeping it a secret from my conscious.
2. Anyway I can and once I get there I'll reevaluate my end goal. I'm going to Mechanicsburg next summer and would like to finish in the top 10 in silver senior. My best finish is a mathematical 18th with ties, etc., in a field of 80 or so shooters (master senior)
I can and have shot scores at the Nationals that are good enough to win but these have been only partial. The first time I went I scored a 272 first half with a very dumb extra arrow on target 14. I remember the feeling of that half but can't repeat it at will, even though I shoot like that off and on. The second time I went I shot 12 up on the animal round which put me in group 2 for the last day. Once again couldn't repeat.


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## SonnyThomas

Fury90flier said:


> quit scoring at close range...either you hit your dot or you don't. Go get yourself some 1" sticky dots and shoot 1 arrow per dot.
> 
> This will force you to change the way you think. Right now you're focus is all wrong.
> 
> Question....how many arrows do you shoot in a session.


And why I suggested shooting the leveled lines. Breaks up the monotony for one and "you got to do" with no point value.

Another, I don't mind missing so long as I know why. Yeah, a lot of times I've given cause for Confession before the arrow reached the target. The thing if you come back with "get it right" attitude for the next shot and you do it right, it a "Atta Boy." Now just do it again and again and again.


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## N7709K

Would you have one season of lower than average scores for the following season to be higher than average?

Your focus is score; nothing wrong with that as a goal per se, but as the overall focus it causes issues. Scores don't just happen over night; they take work and at a point they take reworking the entire system they are built upon because it has plateaued at its highest level. You're at a point where scores have become the ultimate goal and you just care about scores; to a degree there a some tuning tricks and little things that can pick up a few points and don't take the required time and dedication to "rebuild" the shot... They will bring scores up but only a few points... and they will only work for so long. If you want a lasting increase it takes giving up a season to rework things and bring things up to a different plateau; when that happens you work on tweaking some little things.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Would you have one season of lower than average scores for the following season to be higher than average?
> 
> Your focus is score; nothing wrong with that as a goal per se, but as the overall focus it causes issues. Scores don't just happen over night; they take work and at a point they take reworking the entire system they are built upon because it has plateaued at its highest level. You're at a point where scores have become the ultimate goal and you just care about scores; to a degree there a some tuning tricks and little things that can pick up a few points and don't take the required time and dedication to "rebuild" the shot... They will bring scores up but only a few points... and they will only work for so long. If you want a lasting increase it takes giving up a season to rework things and bring things up to a different plateau; when that happens you work on tweaking some little things.


In 2001-2011 my averages dropped off but have since climbed back up again. I actually feel pretty good about my shooting and progress so far this season but sometimes you wouldn't know it based on some of my posts. I played with my setup today and got rid of the instability issue at the end of the shot, or at least I think I have as I haven't left the cellar with it yet. I lengthened my d-loop and messed with my weights. The bow seems to be holding nicely without that quirky movement at the end of the cycle. I'd love to be able to take a year off and work on my shot but at my age taking a season off isn't an option... I'm also discovering some of the inner workings of THE shot. I have discovered the secret is in my alignment with regard to the push/pull. If I get it right it's an X... These threads have actually been quite helpful as I'm starting to get some value out of the short range shooting I have been doing. Nothing is automatic and I have to really force myself to bring the short range shot back to longer distances. I also understand that I have to let this happen in its own time and it can't be rushed. Waiting has never been my strong point...


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## N7709K

by giving up a season i'm not so much saying take a season off as i am don't worry about the scores that happen during that season but worry about the process... go in committed to shooting good shots and the primary focus is shooting only good shots; not making score XXX or finish in position XX.


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## Lazarus

N7709K said:


> by giving up a season i'm not so much saying take a season off as i am don't worry about the scores



EPLC.........are ya listening? How many people have been telling you this?

Best thing you could do is take what people have been telling you about "score," *log off of AT for AT LEAST 30 days,* cold turkey, stop jacking with your set-up, and PRACTICE until "where" your arrow hit wasn't important to you any longer. Make the "reward" not your new average of 45 shots. Make the reward THE shot. It's not that hard.

I'm done.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> by giving up a season i'm not so much saying take a season off as i am don't worry about the scores that happen during that season but worry about the process... go in committed to shooting good shots and the primary focus is shooting only good shots; not making score XXX or finish in position XX.


Putting it this way does make sense. While this won't be an easy ride, I'm going to give this an honest try. Thanks! 



Lazarus said:


> EPLC.........are ya listening? How many people have been telling you this?
> 
> Best thing you could do is take what people have been telling you about "score," *log off of AT for AT LEAST 30 days,* cold turkey, stop jacking with your set-up, and PRACTICE until "where" your arrow hit wasn't important to you any longer. Make the "reward" not your new average of 45 shots. Make the reward THE shot. It's not that hard.
> 
> I'm done.


It's not a question of listening Laz... it's a question of understanding and implementing. And for the record, for me it "IS" that hard. I don't know how to just turn it off and I believe there are many in the same boat as I am with this. I know sticking within my shot process helps but performance thoughts can pop up anytime, and do. This triggers my conscious mind to take over and then I'm toast. It's most difficult when I'm shooting really well and my brain goes in this direction. Once there it's very difficult to turn off the noise. If you think you're frustrated, imagine how frustrating it is to me having the physical ability and tangible evidence of competence only be dragged down by performance anxiety is very frustrating to say the least. 

As mentioned above I'm going to give this an honest try.


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## ron w

by your last post there, I would say, you need to spend some time at the blind bale, really going back to the basic element of developing your sub conscious release execution and the shot process, in general. if your having trouble maintaining that shot execution without it going consciously driven, you're in need of the development that runs the entire shot, on the sub conscious level. this is not learned or maintained at the short bale, with a target in front of you. you need to posses that process well, before stepping in front of a target at the short bale. what is lacking is the process that runs the shot internally . that process needs to be strong, because any distraction has the effect of forcing you out of that sub consciously driven process. 
think of it as learning what the gas pedal does, without learning what the brake pedal does. not knowing what that brake pedal does, is destinating you for a crash. when you convert back to conscious level guidance, that is a shot that is now being forced and should be abandoned. it does no good to abandon just that part of the shot, by pausing the shot process and starting back up where it left off, the whole shot has to abandoned, the entire process.... with a let down,..... because that teaches the shot process, not to get into the state of mind that will allow it to be distracted.


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## aread

Do you trust your shot sequence? 
Are you consistently executing every little part and piece of your form and execution in a way that can take you where you want to go?

If you are like me the answer is NO.


When practicing, do you tinker with your form and execution?
Do you have doubts about any part of your shot?
Do you do things differently from shot to shot hoping to find something that works?
In practice, are you more interested in hitting an X or on executing the shot perfectly?

If you are like me, the answer is YES.


It's probably pretty obvious where I'm going with this post. 

If you are not 100% convinced that every part and piece of your shot sequence can take you to the top, you are going to tinker with it. Until you can find a shot sequence that you can totally trust and not tinker with, you can't commit to practice it under all conditions. 

Any practice session is not going to be effective if we are tinkering and making changes. And if you are tinkering and trying to shoot an inside out X at the same time, the results are not likely to be pretty. We may hit 10,000 inside out X's in a row at 10 yards, but if we aren't using the exact same form on every shot, we are just flinging arrows.

Tournament archery, especially indoor, is about perfection. To achieve that we have to be consistent in form and execution. Most of us are not practicing to achieve that level of consistency anywhere near as much as we should. 

This post is written as much for me as it is for you. This tread has made me examine what I'm doing and I realize I'm committing most of the same practice sins as everyone else. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## ron w

i'd say that by comparison of the number of active pros there are and the number of members here on this site...we all are practicing "in sin" !


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## Padgett

I DON'T in training: 

1. Blind bale
2. Shoot scoring rounds more than once a week.
3. Keep track of scoring rounds
4. use one release
5. use one firing method

I DO in training:

1. use many firing methods
2. I keep running totals of how many x's I hit in a row and I start over every time I miss a x.
3. I shoot old and new targets to practice hitting weather it is a fresh or shot up target.
4. I use up to 4 different hinges most every visit to the range.
5. I count how many arrows hit on the outer edge of the x

To me I heard and still hear from people here on archery talk that I need to pick one hinge and only shoot it and I have ignored this piece of advice for the last few years, I am so glad that I ignored because to me being able to go a week of shooting up to 5 hours of indoor and either not missing a x or only missing one is something I never thought I would be able to do. One of the reasons I believe I am seeing this kind of shooting is because I was stubborn and chose to learn to set up many different hinges and shoot them almost equally as good with a variety of methods to firing them. Sure one of them always stands out as the dominant one that pounds the center of the x better than the others and it is the one I will compete with but the lessons learned from being able to simply pick up one of the four hinges and pick one of my three favorite firing engines and shoot each hinge with any one of the three and never really miss is special to me.

I simply really don't shoot scoring rounds very often, this is something that I am so glad that I started doing because in the beginning when I started shooting 5-spot the magic number 60x just seemed so huge and something I would never be able to accomplish, I still remember the first time I made it clean on half of a 5-spot and shot 30x's in a row. I shot for about a year after accomplishing 30x's in a row and never really did any better than that and somewhere in that time period I began keeping track of RUNNING TOTALS, I would lay a couple hinges on my stool and shoot with one of them until I missed and then I switched and shot with the other hinge until I missed. It was that easy of a drill and this type of shooting session gave me so many memories of positive things instead of another stinking disappointing scoring round. It wasn't to long before I started 70 and 80 and then one day I shot something like 111 x's in a row and I think I called every buddy and even my mommy and told her what I had done.

I have been competing in sports for decades and to me you must find a way to leave the ball park or shooting range excited about what you did that day and for me I structure my training around having a good time and banging x's, it started out for me just trying to shoot 5 x's in a row and it has progressed into simply not missing for a week at a time. It didn't happen over night and I didn't do any of the blind bale crap that I hate so much, it came from my ability to find something positive about my shooting and simple and fun little shooting sessions that I do.


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## Padgett

In highschool my brother and I set up the pitching machine on the baseball field and took batting practice a lot, I always had him keep one good fresh ball in his left hand so that when a car came down the road behind right field he watched and when it came to this one fence post on the yard on the other side of the road he would put it in the machine and I would hit a home run and try and hit the car as it went by the light pole. I had to hit about a 390 ft ball and it had to be very close to the light pole as it left the park to have a chance to hit the car.

I can still remember visualizing what my swing had to exactly be to hit the ball perfect and leave the park just right to have a chance. I came close many times but such a simple little thing like this taught me how incredibly useful visualizing something could be, I never really tried to hit home runs as a player because I had the ability to hit well over 500 in high school and was a high average type line drive guy in college but I did hit some home runs on purpose for my girlfriend who I later married. I always wish I had just let go of the high average type hitting and just saw how many I could launch in to orbit.

I met a guy in college in a summer college league who would sit a milk crate out in the infield between first and second and I would pitch a variety of balls to him inside and outside and he would hit ground balls and line drives at the mild crate and hit it on a regular basis.

Why did I mention these few baseball things, because sometimes I think you just need to think outside the box a little to make a shooting session fun and productive. One of my latest shooting sessions that I do from time to time indoor or with my 3d bow is to set the sight low so that you shoot out the top of the x about 2 or 3 inches. you shoot each shot and put one click into the sight and over the next 20 arrows or so the arrows will move towards the x until sooner or later you start hitting the top edge of the x and then you start hitting the top half of the x and then all of the sudden you are banging the center of the x. I love this little drill because I am allowing myself to shoot and miss, I am aiming dead on at the center of the x but my arrow is hitting above just like it is supposed to. Then as I move the sight I get to look forward to sooner or later banging the x. This drill helps me know if my bow is dead on and it helps me not worry about where the arrow is hitting and I can just work on my float but I love banging the x so about 15 or so minutes into the session I get rewarded because the arrow finally starts banging dead on.

Little shooting sessions like this one for a guy like me who shoots a high volume of shots keeps things fresh and positive day to day. I shoot running totals more than anything else but I do have other things I enjoy doing from time to time.


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## EPLC

aread said:


> Do you trust your shot sequence?
> Are you consistently executing every little part and piece of your form and execution in a way that can take you where you want to go?
> 
> If you are like me the answer is NO.
> 
> 
> When practicing, do you tinker with your form and execution?
> Do you have doubts about any part of your shot?
> Do you do things differently from shot to shot hoping to find something that works?
> In practice, are you more interested in hitting an X or on executing the shot perfectly?
> 
> If you are like me, the answer is YES.
> 
> 
> It's probably pretty obvious where I'm going with this post.
> 
> If you are not 100% convinced that every part and piece of your shot sequence can take you to the top, you are going to tinker with it. Until you can find a shot sequence that you can totally trust and not tinker with, you can't commit to practice it under all conditions.
> 
> Any practice session is not going to be effective if we are tinkering and making changes. And if you are tinkering and trying to shoot an inside out X at the same time, the results are not likely to be pretty. We may hit 10,000 inside out X's in a row at 10 yards, but if we aren't using the exact same form on every shot, we are just flinging arrows.
> 
> Tournament archery, especially indoor, is about perfection. To achieve that we have to be consistent in form and execution. Most of us are not practicing to achieve that level of consistency anywhere near as much as we should.
> 
> This post is written as much for me as it is for you. This tread has made me examine what I'm doing and I realize I'm committing most of the same practice sins as everyone else.
> 
> JMHO,
> Allen


I just returned from shooting and was very happy with my progress... and then I read this post. I really need work because this describes me to a tee. I started out this morning with the intent of working on my execution without scoring. While I did do this I also did a lot of tweaking for the first hour or so as I had increased my loop length last evening and needed to tweak my DL to get the feel I wanted. I did this by turning in the limb bolts 1 turn at a time until it felt right. I did get rid of the instability issues at the end of the shot cycle so I'm happy with that. The bow and fit seems to be very stable right now so I'm leaving it alone. I shot for about 3 hours today. Once I got the bow where I wanted it I tried to feel every shot. During this process I identified THE execution that I want to develop and was reasonably successful at repeating it towards the end of my session. I will say that just working on discovering and trying to repeat THE shot isn't easily accomplished. I found myself looking to shoot 5X ends... just another distraction. Well at least I made a beginning and did make some progress.


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## N7709K

we've all been at the point where it came down to giving up a season or two to get the outcome that was needed; i've done it... it sucks... BUT its the best thing i've done in regards to getting to where I wanted to be. I've had tourneys where running correct shots put the father down the list than I would have been if i had cheated a few...

Its tough, but stick to the blank bale and work the feel; don't shoot the close bale and the blank bale until you get it right, go until you cannot get it wrong.


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## EPLC

This is not going to be an easy task for me... For example: I have a shoot tonight at one of our local clubs so I've been telling myself that I'm not going to be concerned with the score as my goal for the shoot is to just make good shots. Then the gremlins start... "If I do this THEN I'LL HAVE A GOOD SCORE!" Not sure how to stop this line of thinking as it has been messing me up for a long time...


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## EPLC

Well the first shoot with my new found attitude is in the books. I started out well in pre-shoot practice with my "just make good shots" focus and drilled mostly X's. When the competition began I felt comfortable and made it through the first half reasonably well. I'd give myself a B+ for the first half. This was a real challenge because I had a circus going on to my right. A group of shooters along with their yahoo friends were yucking it up all through the shoot. On the last arrow of the 6th end I dropped a 4 for no other reason than I got a little cocky and lost my focus. The second half focus was not as good as the first (C-) but I did learn where my weak spots are as a result of focusing on form and not score. More work is going to be required to further develop THE shot. I've identified it, now I have to perfect it.


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## EPLC

I can't believe I'm saying this... I just Blank and Blind baled for the past couple of hours. I learned some things, such as I really need to stop slouching (clever_guy told me this many moons ago right here on AT). I've always resisted blank and blind baling because my shot wasn't defined enough to find it useful. Now that I have a shot that I truly believe can be developed it does make sense. The burlap bag is a new addition to my arsenal and it is working out great. Not only does it save my target butt, it's very durable. Just punch it in various places once in a while and it's like new again. Very useful, inexpensive ($.95 each) and like I said, durable. This was taken at the end of my session today.


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## Fury90flier

"resisted blank and blind baling because my shot wasn't defined enough to find it useful"

you never understood blank baling...that was the only issue. Looking at a target "aiming" will screw up the form building process....if you're focused on aiming- it's very difficult to also focus on developing form. 

I'm glad you're seeing the benefit of blank baling.

Now...if you really want to step up your game....close your eyes when you shoot.


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## EPLC

Fury90flier said:


> "resisted blank and blind baling because my shot wasn't defined enough to find it useful"
> 
> you never understood blank baling...that was the only issue. Looking at a target "aiming" will screw up the form building process....if you're focused on aiming- it's very difficult to also focus on developing form.
> 
> I'm glad you're seeing the benefit of blank baling.
> 
> Now...if you really want to step up your game....close your eyes when you shoot.


You're supposed to open your eyes? :embara:


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## EPLC

I've done a lot of thought about this subject as well as shooting a ton of arrows at short range. While this effort may or may not have helped in some ways, it certainly hasn't done anything to improve my range of motion. In fact my range of motion suffers a sloppy setback when I shoot at short range too much and/or too often. There is no debate on this as I have found this to be the case over a very large sampling. I need a training routine that will help reduce my range of motion and believe I may have something. I've tried just about every variation of short range shooting known to man and beast including using scaled target faces. So what if I go the other direction and scale the targets for 30 yards instead of scaling down. Since the 20 yard Vegas face is 40cm a 60cm face should produce the same sight picture at 30 yards. I'm willing to bet that this 30 yard drill will pay off as a method to improve range of motion. In any case I'm going to give it a try. I've made up a few to try out and if it seems to have promise I'll order some 60cm 3 spots from Lancaster. http://www.lancasterarchery.com/maple-leaf-ta-60cm-vertical-3-spot-target-face.html


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## N7709K

range of motion?? in what sense are you using that... i don't really follow?


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## Rick!

N7709K said:


> range of motion?? in what sense are you using that... i don't really follow?


EP substitutes "range of motion" for "float".


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> range of motion?? in what sense are you using that... i don't really follow?


Like Rick! said... think "float". Close range shooting has done nothing to decrease my range of "float". For years I've just accepted that it is what it is and put most of my effort into paying as little attention to it as possible. I do reasonably well when I can accomplish that goal. But... the problem I've consistently had to deal with is following the float or trying to control it. Generally this starts after a period of shooting well. When I do this I go into a slump which is self feeding as I try harder. The harder I try the worst I shoot. This continues for a while and then for some reason I snap out of it and shoot good again for a while... until the cycle starts again. 

Thanks to many of the recent suggestions here on AT I've stopped scoring my practice rounds. I'm also making an effort not to fixate on score during competitions. As a result I've identified a repeatable shot that hits the X each and every time I execute properly. I'm currently working to ingrain that shot. The problem with using short range to practice this is that I have trouble identifying the subtle feel that comes along with this shot. At 20 yards I can see and feel the good shot as well as identifying subtle errors that I wouldn't notice at 7 yards. As a result I have been making more and more of these good shots. I'm thinking that shooting 30 yards on a 60cm face will produce the exact same sight picture I get at 20 yards with a 40cm face. Because you have to be more precise at 30 yards than at 20 I feel this with be a worth while effort. When I'm shooting field all summer I practice 75% at 30 yards and 25% at 50 yards and this routine works well.


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## N7709K

stop over aiming and forcing the dot to sit still...

here's my take- view it as you will. I'm not trying to be a d-bag, its just how i'm reading things and taking them in.

The short work and the reasons for the short work are being lost somewhere along the lines. If you are shooting different shots at 20yds, 30yds, 50yds than you are shoot at 7yds its not doing any good and it up close the bale is just being flogged. At 7yds, yes the dot doesn't leave inner 10 but it floats in inner 10 the same amount it would float in big 10 at 20yds or in the yellow at 50m etc... The short work allows for fixing the shot when score is a constant variable; you don't fixate on shooting 30x games when that is the known outcome; working the shot back brings in the changes to score AFTER the constant variable has become the shot itself. In short if you half ass the process, you get halfass results.

the overall distance traveled by the dot is going to be the same no matter the distance; the target size(and to a degree clarity) is all that is changing. If you are going to use and aiming system without a reference point you need to understand that you just center what you want to hit and let it do its thing; it never will sit still because there is no reference on the lens to make sit still... the will always be more movement. bringing the overall movement to a minimum requires work to the shooter to create a stable platform that is conducive to extended periods of stability, work to the bow to best utilize the input from the shooter, and the auxiliary equipment to best cushion the inconsistencies among the three. No one hold still; everyone has float and everyone lives with it. We all have put the hundreds of hours in to find what setup gives us the best results across the board and what plays to our natural strengths and abilities; giving a setup a couple games isn't enough of a test(for most shooters; depending on their level you can tell in a half doz shots if something is going to work of not) to whether or not this setup is going to provide a better platform.

the cyclical highs and lows happen to all shooters; its all about bringing the highs and lows closer to the one another. To be able to bring the lows up to the old level of the highs you need to rework the process and be diligent in building the process. At this point you want scores to come up; plain and simple... it might just be in your best interest to put some time in reworking the equip and tuning the equip to bring about those few extra points you are looking for.


----------



## Bees

EPLC said:


> Like Rick! said... think "float". Close range shooting has done nothing to decrease my range of "float". For years I've just accepted that it is what it is and put most of my effort into paying as little attention to it as possible. I do reasonably well when I can accomplish that goal. But... the problem I've consistently had to deal with is following the float or trying to control it. Generally this starts after a period of shooting well. When I do this I go into a slump which is self feeding as I try harder. The harder I try the worst I shoot. This continues for a while and then for some reason I snap out of it and shoot good again for a while... until the cycle starts again.
> 
> Thanks to many of the recent suggestions here on AT I've stopped scoring my practice rounds. I'm also making an effort not to fixate on score during competitions. As a result I've identified a repeatable shot that hits the X each and every time I execute properly. I'm currently working to ingrain that shot. The problem with using short range to practice this is that I have trouble identifying the subtle feel that comes along with this shot. At 20 yards I can see and feel the good shot as well as identifying subtle errors that I wouldn't notice at 7 yards. As a result I have been making more and more of these good shots. I'm thinking that shooting 30 yards on a 60cm face will produce the exact same sight picture I get at 20 yards with a 40cm face. Because you have to be more precise at 30 yards than at 20 I feel this with be a worth while effort. When I'm shooting field all summer I practice 75% at 30 yards and 25% at 50 yards and this routine works well.


That is because you have only been doing this for a few weeks.
When I first had the though about taking something that worked at 20 yards and walking up closer to the target and repeating that something.
then I would say OK Now that is what I'm going to practice all week up close.
When I got home I would try to duplicate the something, and I couldn't do it. oh crap. but I would try all week anyway.
it took me almost a year before I could repeat the feel of the something up close. 

you have spent your whole shooting career not knowing the difference between a good shot and a bad shot.
you have never known why you were on one day and off the next day.

Now your learning what those difference's are, but you have to get this need for instant results out of your head.
You have spent years walking into those woods, and it's unreasonable to think your going to walk out of those woods in just a few weeks.


----------



## Bees

N7709K said:


> stop over aiming and forcing the dot to sit still...
> 
> here's my take- view it as you will. I'm not trying to be a d-bag, its just how i'm reading things and taking them in.
> 
> The short work and the reasons for the short work are being lost somewhere along the lines. If you are shooting different shots at 20yds, 30yds, 50yds than you are shoot at 7yds its not doing any good and it up close the bale is just being flogged. At 7yds, yes the dot doesn't leave inner 10 but it floats in inner 10 the same amount it would float in big 10 at 20yds or in the yellow at 50m etc... The short work allows for fixing the shot when score is a constant variable; you don't fixate on shooting 30x games when that is the known outcome; working the shot back brings in the changes to score AFTER the constant variable has become the shot itself. In short if you half ass the process, you get halfass results.
> 
> the overall distance traveled by the dot is going to be the same no matter the distance; the target size(and to a degree clarity) is all that is changing. If you are going to use and aiming system without a reference point you need to understand that you just center what you want to hit and let it do its thing; it never will sit still because there is no reference on the lens to make sit still... the will always be more movement. bringing the overall movement to a minimum requires work to the shooter to create a stable platform that is conducive to extended periods of stability, work to the bow to best utilize the input from the shooter, and the auxiliary equipment to best cushion the inconsistencies among the three. No one hold still; everyone has float and everyone lives with it. We all have put the hundreds of hours in to find what setup gives us the best results across the board and what plays to our natural strengths and abilities; giving a setup a couple games isn't enough of a test(for most shooters; depending on their level you can tell in a half doz shots if something is going to work of not) to whether or not this setup is going to provide a better platform.
> 
> the cyclical highs and lows happen to all shooters; its all about bringing the highs and lows closer to the one another. To be able to bring the lows up to the old level of the highs you need to rework the process and be diligent in building the process. At this point you want scores to come up; plain and simple... it might just be in your best interest to put some time in reworking the equip and tuning the equip to bring about those few extra points you are looking for.


yep... 
I don't normally keep score but today I paid attention to it, working with reticles and my sight picture.
I shot a 5 spot target, 300 51X's hoping my cycle doesn't dip lower??? :noidea:


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> That is because you have only been doing this for a few weeks.
> When I first had the though about taking something that worked at 20 yards and walking up closer to the target and repeating that something.
> then I would say OK Now that is what I'm going to practice all week up close.
> When I got home I would try to duplicate the something, and I couldn't do it. oh crap. but I would try all week anyway.
> it took me almost a year before I could repeat the feel of the something up close.


Actually I've been working various short range routines for more than 10 years without any measurable degree of success. The difficulty has been the inability to identify subtle issues at close range that become apparent at longer ranges. If I shoot at short range too much or too often these subtle issues rear their ugly head at real world distances. 




Bees said:


> you have spent your whole shooting career not knowing the difference between a good shot and a bad shot.
> you have never known why you were on one day and off the next day.


This is a very true statement... shoot good one day and then not able to repeat. The good news is that I now have a successful execution process that I can repeat. I'm currently working to refine it, build confidence in it and stick with it. I've taken Jacob's advise with regard to taking this season off mentally. I'm no longer shooting for score, even when my rounds are being scored. I just don't care. I've noticed that in competition I'm tending to start off tighter than is acceptable, but as I shoot I'm loosening up and the shots are getting smoother and I'm finishing strong. 



Bees said:


> Now your learning what those difference's are, but you have to get this need for instant results out of your head.
> You have spent years walking into those woods, and it's unreasonable to think your going to walk out of those woods in just a few weeks.


Like I said, I'm taking this season off mentally and will reassess where I am in the spring. My goal is to finish in the top 10 in my class at the NFAA Field Nationals next summer.


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## dunmoab

Hey eplc, sorry to add this if its already been stated....but. Are you working on your overall process, or one piece at a time when you're working up close? 
Myself, I only work on one specific part of my shot at a time when doing close work. In fact that's the only time I do "close work/blank bailing". I keep at it, only focusing on the problem till I get it worked out and have it down. Till it becomes part of my subconscious shot process. I don't aim(unless working on my hold). While up close. Most of the real work on my entire process I do is at long distance. 80-100 yds. I feel that long distance shows errors much easier and forces me to make very well executed shots to place the arrow where I want. It is kinda forced focus or hyper focusing if you prefer. Then when I have the shot down, shorter stuff is much better. 
Having said that, the real trick for me becomes just shooting every shot the same way. Regardless of distance. In theory, if every shot is executed the same. The shot should hit the middle, in the same place as every shot taken(same hole). That's the work..... Works for me


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## WhitBri

possum trapper said:


> Like ive said many times in the past......you may think your executing good at close range but you truly don't know.
> 
> Now if your having issues with being a little jumpy or quick on execution or just struggling in sight picture like if you have been shooting in wind and you want to settle back down by all means go up close.
> 
> but if your shooting decent scores and your just not getting great shots off up close may not work for you because its too easy to execute up close.
> 
> step back futher and then execute shots.55yrds and futher will show flaws like no other yardage will.
> 
> there is a fine line for what works for one person to the next.Its simple if up close works for you keep on doing it.If it doesn't don't.No one can really tell you what works for you they can only give you recommendations on what to try.Its up to you to getRdone and figure it out.
> 
> and for some guys its probably not gonna happen.No matter how hard they try and practice just because the mental and physical just isn't there.
> and some people just listen to their coach and preach what they say.
> If the coaches were correct all the time wouldn't everyone be standing in line at their doors and a lot more perfect scores would be getting shot at major tourneys and that's just not the case


Great post. As with so many things on AT people want to get results from reading a post. What most don't want to admit is either not putting in enough time practicing or the right kind of practice. 
Getting to a 300 55x shooter is one thing but getting to a consistent 60x is obviously a lot of work with some natural talent sprinkled in.


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## N7709K

Bees said:


> I shot a 5 spot target, 300 51X's hoping my cycle doesn't dip lower??? :noidea:


Totally depends on your level as a shooter; it's always possible to drop lower in score, any changes made will first lower score before giving a definitive answer to how the the change affects your average. If 51x is about average for you then dropping an x or two lower is very possible- same for if it's on the high end of things. 

If you want to see how well a shooter grasps their shot and how well they have there process learned you look at the deviation of scores over an extended period (say a season just to make things easier...). If shooter x is a 50x shooter the scores will show a fluctuation of +/- 2x's on average and this stays consistent... There may be the outlier high or low game but the majority all stay in that range. Now take shooter y who is a 60x shooter; they track I/o's for the games. Over the course of a season they may see that +/-2 i/o's, but more than likely it will be a +/- 1 i/o. They have their process to the point where the established average is more or less a constant; extrapolate this out over 5 seasons and there will be very little change present.


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## EPLC

I shot my first practice session at 30 yards with my homemade 60cm face. I believe this is what I've been looking for as it was easy to identify the issues needing attention. If you don't make a good shot it shows immediately as I found out. I started out quite sloppy spraying arrows all over the gold... with a few in the 8 ring. As I continued shooting I had to force myself to buckle down and make my best shot. I finished out the session making much better shots with most hitting the 10 or 10X. This has been the problem I have encountered with shooting targets at short range. It's just too easy and faults do not get identified. I need something to force me to make good shots... and shooting at 30 yards seems to be just that. By using the 60cm face I'm getting the same sight picture as I do at 20 with the 40cm face. This, combined with a distance that requires a truly good shot, provides a training routine that should provide improvement over time. I'm not expecting an instant fix, just hoping my progress is steady over the course of this indoor season.

In addition to the 150% face I've also made up a 125% face to shoot at 25 yards for times when 30 isn't available.


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## Joe Schnur

You'd be better off th shoot standard vegas face at 25 or 30


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## N7709K

i don't think the target size is really gonna play that much into working on shooting better shots; that is about paying attention to detail and all aspects of the shot(including setup). If you diligently go through all of the steps each and every time until the process is entirely subconscious distance shouldn't have any effect upon the shot itself; distance will change what you are seeing in your sight...


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## SonnyThomas

If I remember correctly the Vegas target was designed for purpose and that purpose was visual. Them %#$%^*! 

One of my good days from 30 yards. 1st pic cost someone a diet Pepsi and the 2nd trying NAP/s Twisters. I used a 4X lens, large stick-on circle and .029" green fiber optic pin. 282 gr arrow at 281 fps.


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## Rick!

EPLC said:


> In addition to the 150% face I've also made up a 125% face to shoot at 25 yards for times when 30 isn't available.


The inner 10 on a Vegas target at 10 yards is 7.5 MOA.
The 4cm 10 ring at 20yds is 7.5 MOA.
The 6cm 10 ring at 30yds is the same MOA.

In my opinion, the same form/shot process flaws show up at any distance, it just depends how you interpret what you're "printing" with what it felt like.


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## EPLC

Well I can only speak for myself... and this is a very small sampling, but two days of shooting this face at 30 yards is encouraging. Shooting the same sight picture with the added difficulty factor of 30 yards seems to be helpful. I'm better able to get the "feel" of the good shot and faults are more apparent as well. Yesterdays effort was not as good as todays although I did finish yesterdays session stronger toward the end. Today was much better as I kept all but a couple in the gold, with most being in the 10 or 10X ring. After shooting for over an hour I no longer had the range to myself and had to move in to 20 yards. I only shot 2 ends at 20 but my shots were strong and easily found center. I found it easy to duplicate what I was doing at 30 yards at 20. My experience at short range has been just the opposite as moving back after short range sessions seems to be much more difficult than moving closer after a 30 yard session. 

It would seem that there is not a lot of support for my plan, but I'm committed to doing this. I have a test that will either prove or disprove this adventure. I have a 7 year league average of 433 that I will compare at the end of this season to my 2014/2015 results. Doing what I have been doing since switching to lefty my average hasn't changed much over the past 7 years. I think you might say I've peeked. So, either my average goes up, stays around the same or goes down. We'll find out in April. The numbers won't lie:
07/08 430
08/09 437
09/10 433
10/11 429
11/12 430
12/13 436
13/14 434


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## SonnyThomas

Glad for you, EPLC. Archery is so much mental that it isn't funny. All of us different, anyway you can make for improvement or see what the problem is so to correct it goes in the plus column.


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## N7709K

be careful not to stay caught up in scores... When a shooter makes changes to the process and the platform, scores drop; it doesn't matter who they are or what level of shooter they are, scores go down. That said if working the bale at 30yds is bringing about what you need in regards to highlighting the areas to work on keep working at it... but put the focus into good shots, not so much as to where they are printing. Chances are good shots aren't going to print with the same zero that your sighted in for


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## fanio

What does that last sentence mean, Jacob? Do you mean that if your sight is set for best overall score, your good shots may not be completely centered, because in effect you had "mis-set" the sight slightly to compensate for errors? An example might be, set sight so good shots hit top right of X because most of your bad shots go low and left, and that way you might still catch a line? (This is in fact exactly what I do: I very rarely miss high right so at 50m my sight is set so perfect shots hit near the X line at between 1 and 2 o'clock).


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## N7709K

What I'm meaning is this: when you are sighted in for shot "y" (let's say your standard, unchanged shot... Not bad, but not a truly good shot) you hit in the middle any time you shoot shot "y". With shots "x" (these are the bad shots, and they miss no matter where your sight is set) and "z"(these are the good shots) you miss the middle. When the focus is on the score, shot "z" is thrown out just as much as shot "x" because it didn't hit the middle. When the focus is on shooting good shots, the sight is set so that good shots are printing in the middle- anything not printing in the middle isn't a good shot.


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## EPLC

The good news is I'm not scoring any of the practice rounds and in competition I'm trying to not pay attention to score at all. My goal is to create a mindset that centers around making the best shot possible. The average will be what it will be and used as a metric only. While I fully intend to not focus on it, an honest average is the only true metric there is to measure progress or regression. The average will be there whether I fixate on it or not, so it will be interesting to see if my plan is headed north or south.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> The good news is I'm not scoring any of the practice rounds and in competition I'm trying to not pay attention to score at all. My goal is to create a mindset that centers around making the best shot possible. The average will be what it will be and used as a metric only. While I fully intend to not focus on it, an honest average is the only true metric there is to measure progress or regression. The average will be there whether I fixate on it or not, so it will be interesting to see if my plan is headed north or south.


Just a random observation that doesn't entirely pertain to short range training, but sort of does - Rethink these statements..... Instead of "not pay attention to score" and "not focus on it", try thinking about "my only focus will be on shot process". 

A friend of mine's dad is a Vietnam vet and going through counseling for PTSD. One of his exercises was to try to not think about chocolate cake. Guess what you do when you try to not think about chocolate cake?


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## EPLC

Ned250 said:


> Just a random observation that doesn't entirely pertain to short range training, but sort of does - Rethink these statements..... Instead of "not pay attention to score" and "not focus on it", try thinking about "my only focus will be on shot process".
> 
> A friend of mine's dad is a Vietnam vet and going through counseling for PTSD. One of his exercises was to try to not think about chocolate cake. Guess what you do when you try to not think about chocolate cake?


Good suggestion Ned, thanks!


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## ron w

EPLC,
using a reduced size target close up, completely eliminates the purpose that shooting close up, is intended to do. you cannot gain any advantage in shooting close up with a target, until you have established the tools that allow you to shoot with a target on the bail. if those initial tools have not been established and ingrained into your shot execution, before you step in front of a target, you will only go backwards, or reach a plateau that won't allow you to advance your shot execution. 
you're being all wrapped up in score or "hitting the center" indicates that you haven't reached that qualification of shot execution that merits shooting up close with a target. it's about "hitting the center", it's about the "shot running perfectly", while aiming at a target. when your all engulfed in hitting the center, you are directing too much energy controlling the sight alignment and missing the purpose of developing your shot.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> EPLC,
> using a reduced size target close up, completely eliminates the purpose that shooting close up, is intended to do. you cannot gain any advantage in shooting close up with a target, until you have established the tools that allow you to shoot with a target on the bail. if those initial tools have not been established and ingrained into your shot execution, before you step in front of a target, you will only go backwards, or reach a plateau that won't allow you to advance your shot execution.
> you're being all wrapped up in score or "hitting the center" indicates that you haven't reached that qualification of shot execution that merits shooting up close with a target. it's about "hitting the center", it's about the "shot running perfectly", while aiming at a target. when your all engulfed in hitting the center, you are directing too much energy controlling the sight alignment and missing the purpose of developing your shot.


Ron, it's apparent that I'm not getting the short range practice thing, been there done that. My fault... my bad... I'm guilty... doesn't work for me. While shooting a scaled target at short range has been one of the many schemes I have tried at close range, currently it isn't one of them. What I am doing now, and intending to stick with it, is shooting a 30 yard scaled target face at 30 yards while building the perfect shot. Even though I've only been doing this for 3 days, I'm already seeing value in this effort. 

I speak for myself: The problem with short range target training is that I find it too easy to hit center and it builds false confidence. It hides my form flaws and as a result I struggle when I shoot longer distances. I have a very large sampling over a long span of time to bare this out. On the other hand I find shooting longer distances forces you to make a good shot because you can't get away with anything less. Unlike short range shooting which produces issues when I move back, when practicing at 30 yards I can move to 20 and not loose anything. In fact what I am finding is it is much easier to use what I learn at 30 when shooting 20. Short range training has not produced the desired effect for me.


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## ron w

if you know it hides your form flaws, then you are recognizing that you are "shooting through those flaws" and that is specifically and distinctly, the reason it is not helping you.
if you recognize the flaw and don't completely abandon the shot set up at the flaw (as with the "let down" drills), you are not teaching your shot process to avoid, or refuse the flaws, conversely, you are teaching your shot process that "the flaw is OK.....just shoot through it, as long as the score comes out good"...ie "forcing the shot"
this where some of us are saying you're not getting the picture. it is not the score that counts at the short bale, it is the quality of each individual shot, with the score being the ultimate production of each individual shot being done correctly......eg. the score is simply the "by-product" of 60 individually well made shots, regardless of the fact that there were some letdowns or not. the purpose of the short baling is to teach your shot process, to refuse to run through those flaws that you recognize, by deliberately letting down and starting over and doing it religiously at every tiny flaw. the instant you get that feeling of "this isn't right", no matter how slight the feeling is, abandon the shot with a let down. the idea is that the whole shot has to run correctly or the whole shot has to be abandoned....no in between and NO LETTING A FAULT KNOWINGLY SLIP BY.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> if you know it hides your form flaws, then you are recognizing that you are "shooting through those flaws" and that is specifically and distinctly, the reason it is not helping you.
> if you recognize the flaw and don't completely abandon the shot set up at the flaw (as with the "let down" drills), you are not teaching your shot process to avoid, or refuse the flaws, conversely, you are teaching your shot process that "the flaw is OK.....just shoot through it, as long as the score comes out good"...ie "forcing the shot"
> this where some of us are saying you're not getting the picture. it is not the score that counts at the short bale, it is the quality of each individual shot, with the score being the ultimate production of each individual shot being done correctly......eg. the score is simply the "by-product" of 60 individually well made shots, regardless of the fact that there were some letdowns or not. the purpose of the short baling is to teach your shot process, to refuse to run through those flaws that you recognize, by deliberately letting down and starting over and doing it religiously at every tiny flaw. the instant you get that feeling of "this isn't right", no matter how slight the feeling is, abandon the shot with a let down. the idea is that the whole shot has to run correctly or the whole shot has to be abandoned....no in between and NO LETTING A FAULT KNOWINGLY SLIP BY.


Here's the problem with your assumption, and the reason short range shooting doesn't work for me. "I am not able to feel the fault at close range." What ends up happening is I engrain the flaw and make things worse not better. I believe this is due to me being naturally lazy. By shooting longer distances I simply can't get away with bad form as the result is obvious.


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## N7709K

Do you not feel the differences; or do you simple not see the hit/miss value that you do shooting at longer ranges?


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Do you not feel the differences; or do you simple not see the hit/miss value that you do shooting at longer ranges?


Probably a little of both. When you are putting them all in the middle who's to know.


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## N7709K

there is a distinct difference between arrows going in the middle and good shots; the goal of any distance is to shoot the same good shot each and every time. Up close all factors are removed beyond shooter error- the feel of the shot was there or it wasn't, there aren't any other factors.

In my shooting I can tell up close and out to 18m whether I'm shooting good shots or just hitting 10's...


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Here's the problem with your assumption, and the reason short range shooting doesn't work for me. "I am not able to feel the fault at close range." What ends up happening is I engrain the flaw and make things worse not better. I believe this is due to me being naturally lazy. By shooting longer distances I simply can't get away with bad form as the result is obvious.


That happens to me when I over aim. It's a unwanted response while aiming hard really hard.
If I concentrate on aiming and only aiming, I will collapse my bow arm and maybe even creep a bit from the back. I don't even notice, I have collapsed that little bit until after the arrow is gone. I guess I get too focused on the aiming and don't notice anything else. turns out I didn't collapse on every shot but enough to screw up a round. 

I spend years going around and around just like you before I figured out I can't aim that hard. 

Now I spend a lot of time looking at the X but I put off really aiming at the X until way late in my cycle and I don't aim for very long


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> there is a distinct difference between arrows going in the middle and good shots; the goal of any distance is to shoot the same good shot each and every time. Up close all factors are removed beyond shooter error- the feel of the shot was there or it wasn't, there aren't any other factors.
> 
> In my shooting I can tell up close and out to 18m whether I'm shooting good shots or just hitting 10's...


In my shooting I can't... at least not up close. The farther out I go the better feel I have for the good shot. Also with regard to the good shot; I'm confused by some of the seemingly contradictive statements here as of late. Yes, I equate a good shot to those that find center... and while I get the message that this is somehow wrong, what is a good shot if it isn't the one's that find center? Granted there are those mystery shots that hit center that shouldn't but isn't the point of this entire endeavor to put arrows in the middle? Also, I think you may be missing the simple fact that most of us don't have a hold that floats in the X ring. I firmly believe that the steadier you are the easier this game is. I have a shooting machine that does not miss. Unfortunately I'm a lot less steady than my machine so I have to contend with float that is larger than a 10 ring.


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## N7709K

a good shot is one that is technically and physically executed correctly for YOU and YOUR shot style; where it prints is all relative to where the dot is. If your dot is in the middle, the arrow will go in the middle- if your dot is on the 8/9 line, thats where your arrow will go. An arrow that goes is the middle is just that; one in the middle- it cannot be quantified as good simply because it "scores" well. 

If you want to shoot good scores you need to shoot good shots; if all you shoot is good shots, all you will see are good scores.

It can be broken down relatively; at score level x, float is going to be in range x... at score level y, float is going to be in range y... etc... For ME and MY shooting my float/hold and my scores correlate rather well, but it comes down to quality of shots when its time to shoot some scores. If I make weak shots, no matter how well I hold, i will shoot low scores. Its not a game about holding well, its about consistency; if was about who can hold the most steady I guarantee I wouldn't be shooting the same setup I am right now...


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## ron w

well said.....
we don't shoot up close any different than we shoot at distance...at least we "shouldn't" shoot any different. if you recognize that your float range is getting out of "imits" when shooting at 20 yards, you should be able to recognize the same thing up close. as you move closer, the range doesn't change, it just gets a larger field to move around in. when you see it moving out close to the ring, you know it's getting too big, so you let down. it takes some amount of studying your float, as Padgett talks about. you have to set a standard , or limit to your flat range and then live by that standard. just because the float gets big and the arrow still goes in the middle,.... because the target is closer,..... doesn't mean it was a "good shot". again, that mentality is "score oriented" and as long as you work "score oriented", instead of "shot quality oriented", the short yardage game won't do anything for your shot, because you are justifying your shot quality by the score, instead of the execution.
as I said earlier, you use the close bale, because the field is bigger, so you don't have to pay all your attention to float range and you can concentrate on execution, but you still have to be aware of the float being produced and realize that a float range that teases the ring at 10 yards, will be off the bull at 20, or danged near off, anyways.
the point is that if you let those large range floats slip by at the short bale, even though they may produce the intended result, you aren't doing yourself any good.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> a good shot is one that is technically and physically executed correctly for YOU and YOUR shot style; where it prints is all relative to where the dot is. If your dot is in the middle, the arrow will go in the middle- if your dot is on the 8/9 line, thats where your arrow will go. An arrow that goes is the middle is just that; one in the middle- it cannot be quantified as good simply because it "scores" well.
> 
> If you want to shoot good scores you need to shoot good shots; if all you shoot is good shots, all you will see are good scores.
> 
> It can be broken down relatively; at score level x, float is going to be in range x... at score level y, float is going to be in range y... etc... For ME and MY shooting my float/hold and my scores correlate rather well, but it comes down to quality of shots when its time to shoot some scores. If I make weak shots, no matter how well I hold, i will shoot low scores. Its not a game about holding well, its about consistency; if was about who can hold the most steady I guarantee I wouldn't be shooting the same setup I am right now...


Ok, for the sake of discussion: Your dot is floating out to the 8 ring. What are your expectations?


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## Ned250

Bees said:


> That happens to me when I over aim. It's a unwanted response while aiming hard really hard.
> If I concentrate on aiming and only aiming, I will collapse my bow arm and maybe even creep a bit from the back. I don't even notice, I have collapsed that little bit until after the arrow is gone. I guess I get too focused on the aiming and don't notice anything else. turns out I didn't collapse on every shot but enough to screw up a round.
> 
> I spend years going around and around just like you before I figured out I can't aim that hard.
> 
> Now I spend a lot of time looking at the X but I put off really aiming at the X until way late in my cycle and I don't aim for very long


You just described my experience to a T.


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## N7709K

Average float hittin red on more than likely both sides... 290-292 avg shooter, maybe a lil higher or lower depending on the frequency that their dot hits the red


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> Average float hittin red on more than likely both sides... 290-292 avg shooter, maybe a lil higher or lower depending on the frequency that their dot hits the red


I was thinking more 275-280. Shot that dang Vegas face enough to think so. How I ever shot a 297 still puzzles me.....


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Average float hittin red on more than likely both sides... 290-292 avg shooter, maybe a lil higher or lower depending on the frequency that their dot hits the red


On good days I'm 295-297 but for average this would be pretty close. Ok, so the issue is float. How does one improve float?


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## N7709K

SonnyThomas said:


> I was thinking more 275-280. Shot that dang Vegas face enough to think so. How I ever shot a 297 still puzzles me.....


its a tough call; depending on how much you are hitting the red and how far into the red the scores can fluctuate so much... hell i flirt with the red every now and then on the really bad shots.



EPLC said:


> On good days I'm 295-297 but for average this would be pretty close. Ok, so the issue is float. How does one improve float?


its not a float issue. If the shot isn't there the scores wont be there either.

but if you just wanna address float without addressing the shooter; tune dl to withing half a twist of the string, then tune bars. After that make the needed adjustments to holding weight, peep height, aiming system and repeat step one and two. When the bow is as good as you can get it, shoot a month or so and again revisit step one and two seeing if adjustments improve things.


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## EPLC

If it's not a float issue then what is it?


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## aread

EPLC said:


> If it's not a float issue then what is it?


Trust in our shot?

At our level, we don't set up a good shot as often as we would like. Because of this, it's difficult to develop trust in the shot. We want to muscle the pin onto the X which creates tension, which leads to more movement, etc. I think the challenge and the goal we should be working on it to set up a good shoot on every arrow or let down.

In my case this is one of the hardest things I've ever done in archery. 

Float is a separate issue, though it goes hand-in-hand with being able to trust our shot. It's easier to trust the float when it's 100% within the X ring than when it's 6 to 8 inches.

How to reduce float would be a great thread. 

Allen


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## ron w

everybody's float changes slightly, from day to day. you have to establish your own limits to how big a float you can tolerate and learn to let down on shots that exceed that float limit. if, for instance,...when your float goes as far as out to the 8 ring,.... and you know that usually results in a 9 ring shot, why would you not refuse that set up with a let down ?. every tme you don't refuse it, you teach your shot process that it's OK, and you add a bit of sloppiness to your range of acceptance.
the point is, that you cannot easily change the float range you have, for any given day, but you can certainly refuse to accept the floats that wander out to the widest limits of the day's range. you have look at a let down as a powerful tool that teaches your shot process what to accept and what not to accept. a let down, does not mean a failure to execute, it means a refusal of sloppy performance. it is a positive thing that installs good values to our shot process. not using it, is the basis of why we force shots that aren't running to our best abilities and not using it reinforces those poorly running shots to be considered OK.


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## EPLC

aread said:


> Trust in our shot?
> 
> At our level, we don't set up a good shot as often as we would like. Because of this, it's difficult to develop trust in the shot. We want to muscle the pin onto the X which creates tension, which leads to more movement, etc. I think the challenge and the goal we should be working on it to set up a good shoot on every arrow or let down.
> 
> In my case this is one of the hardest things I've ever done in archery.
> 
> Float is a separate issue, though it goes hand-in-hand with being able to trust our shot. It's easier to trust the float when it's 100% within the X ring than when it's 6 to 8 inches.
> 
> How to reduce float would be a great thread.
> 
> Allen


That's it, that's exactly it! It's a trust issue. The smaller your float the easier it is to trust. Is a larger float capable of hitting center, yes... but much harder to develop trust in that float. Take short range shooting: I know I can shoot perfect games consistently from 7-10 yards so I trust my float and they basically go in the same hole over and over. When I move back with that same float the visual perception changes and with it trust changes as well. So, either you learn to trust what your mind tells you isn't trustworthy or you end up in the same boat I'm in. I find my trust varies based on my float range variances. As noted I'm currently working on building trust at 30 yards and I'm seeing some improvement already.


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## aread

So which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Good float or trust in the shot? 

I think Jacob is saying that we have to learn to set up a good shot and trust whatever float we see. If it's inside the X ring, wonderful! If it's 4 or 5 inches or worse, first trust and acceptance of what we see, but only if its as good a set up as we are capable. Then work to reduce float with the steps he outlined above.

Allen


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## ILOVE3D

EPLC said:


> That's it, that's exactly it! It's a trust issue. The smaller your float the easier it is to trust. Is a larger float capable of hitting center, yes... but much harder to develop trust in that float. Take short range shooting: I know I can shoot perfect games consistently from 7-10 yards so I trust my float and they basically go in the same hole over and over. When I move back with that same float the visual perception changes and with it trust changes as well. So, either you learn to trust what your mind tells you isn't trustworthy or you end up in the same boat I'm in. I find my trust varies based on my float range variances. As noted I'm currently working on building trust at 30 yards and I'm seeing some improvement already.


For me I had to work on my float and then once that was good the "Trust issue" came into play. 

I know you don't think the short range stuff works for you but for me it seems to be working just fine. At first I couldn't trust my float to be good enough to put every arrow into the same hole, that is in the Vegas X ring. Now I don't even think about it that much, I know it's going to go there when I make good shots and it does. Yes, the hole is getting larger and takes up pretty much all of the 10 ring. From time to time a shot that I think "this shot is not going to be the best, I should let down" and I don't it will break the X ring line sometimes half out or more and immediately I know "Dang, should have let down". I will be moving back say to 7 yards or so probably within a week or two and I know it will be a trust issue for me again until it becomes ingrained in my little brain that the arrow will go there every time I make a good shot. At that point I will move back again and on and on. I know it is helping me because last night just for kicks I shot some at 10 yards and except 2 arrows, about 18 were mostly half way inside the x ring and the other two were 10's. I moved back to 20 and shot 9 arrows, 3 rounds of 3 at the Vegas face. First arrow was just outside the 10 ring (trust issue about float)but the remaining 9 were all 10's and 7 of those were x's. It was just a great feeling for me to notice I was really making progress although still a ways to go. I am hoping that once I fully ingrain the trust issue things will go a little faster at each distance although I am in no hurry and will take it one step at a time whatever it takes. I hope you find a method that works for you as I know how frustrating it can be.


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## EPLC

This is a typical example of 30 arrows at 7 yards. This was May of 2013... with my field setup.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> I was thinking more 275-280. Shot that dang Vegas face enough to think so. How I ever shot a 297 still puzzles me.....





N7709K said:


> its a tough call; depending on how much you are hitting the red and how far into the red the scores can fluctuate so much... hell i flirt with the red every now and then on the really bad shots.
> .


KD was on my bale at this one Vegas event. Okay, we shot 60 arrows in the Qualifiers, later called Aggregates. K looks at my target and says; "How can you have so many shots on there and not hit the 10 ring that much?" I never had one arrow out of the gold. My score 575/600. The first half I did good. We got a short break, got a cigarette smoked and we went for the second half. Me and KD made a pair on the line, him left hand and me right handed and back to back. Back to back our "counter weights" made a spectacle. Glad no one took pictures


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC,
Question and lead up; I have float issues per se, more like getting on target, getting in that dang circle. Once in, I'm in. With execution of the shot my pin is dead still. Dead still so long as I don't execute hard, jerk, flinch or whatever. When I screw up I can see my pin move. So, what's it look like to you? Pin...in your case, the circle holding or just floating as you execute?


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> EPLC,
> Question and lead up; I have float issues per se, more like getting on target, getting in that dang circle. Once in, I'm in. With execution of the shot my pin is dead still. Dead still so long as I don't execute hard, jerk, flinch or whatever. When I screw up I can see my pin move. So, what's it look like to you? Pin...in your case, the circle holding or just floating as you execute?


I honestly try not to look at it... but I can tell you that it seldom stops moving. I pull through the shot as I'm staring at the X... or at least that's my intention.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> On good days I'm 295-297 but for average this would be pretty close. Ok, so the issue is float. How does one improve float?


I stood up straight and got rid of the slouch in my alignment and cut my float in half.. 
I shoot from an attention position now, instead of an at ease position.

I also went from a low wrist to a high wrist position with my grip 
high wrist builds more push toward the target, which further decreases the float.

Next I learned how to complete my back tension move with my rhomboid.
using rhomboid doesn't upset or make the float bigger.

that's about it. I can tell you it is easier to commit to the shot with the smaller float.


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> I stood up straight and got rid of the slouch in my alignment and cut my float in half..
> I shoot from an attention position now, instead of an at ease position.
> 
> I also went from a low wrist to a high wrist position with my grip
> high wrist builds more push toward the target, which further decreases the float.
> 
> Next I learned how to complete my back tension move with my rhomboid.
> using rhomboid doesn't upset or make the float bigger.
> 
> that's about it. I can tell you it is easier to commit to the shot with the smaller float.


Slouching is an issue for me as well. That's one of the things I'm working to correct. I do hold better in the attention position.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> This is a typical example of 30 arrows at 7 yards. This was May of 2013... with my field setup.


Do you have notes on how those 19 shots went? Say..... 12 perfect shots, 5 good, 2 bad?


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## SonnyThomas

Look at most of the really good archers. Most stand very straight and have their head up as in up. The only exception I can think of is Tim Gillingham. He "crunches" his head right in.


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## EPLC

Ned250 said:


> Do you have notes on how those 19 shots went? Say..... 12 perfect shots, 5 good, 2 bad?


No, unfortunately I do not.


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## N7709K

there are form tricks and attributes that add to the stability of the platform and make the shooter more stable.. but it comes down to how far back into the process you want to go in an effort to gain like two or three points.... if you want to go back to the basics; fix and make changes to alignment and setup, rebuild the shot around that and learn the entire new process then its worth doing... but if its gonna be something that is half-assed and given up on when scores dont immediately rise its not worth the time.

The issue with float is that it can be cheated; bad setups can give better holds, good shots can give more relaxed softer float that doesn't hold as well... etc. If your shot isn't trusted/mastered when the float changes you cannot isolated why it changed or realize that the change is do to bad setup or tension in the hands or this or that. As i've said, i don't trust my float- it changes far too often; I trust my shot because I KNOW that can be kept constant. 

You need to settle on what you deem as not acceptable; for me, IF my dot flirts with the red that shot is let down(talking only about indoors here). If my dot floats loose around the edges of big 10; the shot is let down. I know both of those sight pictures do not correlate to good shots; that doesn't mean they won't result in 10's or x's, it means simply they aren't good shots and I won't shoot them as a result. I run a small dot; it moves- when I ran a big dot the amount my dot moved was probably half of what it is today and my skillset as a shooter was at a lower level.... what you choose to aim with WILL change how much perceived movement changes; when you run a large ring/circle the amount it moves on the face will seem diminished because there is no center point to reference movement. When you run a small dot it moves a hell of a lot but you look at how far from center it moves; it may dance around but never leave big 10 or at most a half shaft outta big 10.


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## ron w

EPLC, 
N.7709K's post above, is exactly what I just PM'd you about. setting that "personal limit" of float range and then sticking to that limit of acceptability and letting down every time it's exceeded, religiously...especially at the short bale, where you can easily see your float moving around. whether you're at 7 yards or 20 yards that float has to be within an acceptable range that you establish....and then enforced with a vengeance....no "give" to the limit. a lapse in enforcement at the short bale, especially, only reinforces the sloppiness that makes you miss at 20 yards. this where some of us say you are too score oriented at the short bale. as I see it, ....as long as the arrow goes to the middle, you think it is OK....but that's not necessarily the real objective of short bale shooting. of course, it's good if the arrow does go to the middle, but what goes on at the line is what the short bale is all about. cleaning up that "sloppiness" is all about establishing yor own personal limits of flat range and then reinforcing that limit by abandoning the shots that exceed it. even if they would produce an arrow in the x ring.
if you find that the short bale , as you said, "hides your flaws and you get sloppy", then tighten that personal range limit at the short bale.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> No, unfortunately I do not.


Try taking notes on every shot. It helps to reinforce making a single shot "count" and avoid just standing there mindlessly pounding away at the same hole. As you've noted, it's easy to hit the same hole at 7yds, but if you grade out each shot based on your own criteria of a perfect shot, it makes short yardage a much more meaningful exercise. 

You can make it a simple + or - grading, or you can grade out certain aspects of your shot. Whatever level of details you're personality can handle.


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## SonnyThomas

Done past being a re-hash of everything already said and said differently.


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## EPLC

Ned250 said:


> Try taking notes on every shot. It helps to reinforce making a single shot "count" and avoid just standing there mindlessly pounding away at the same hole. As you've noted, it's easy to hit the same hole at 7yds, but if you grade out each shot based on your own criteria of a perfect shot, it makes short yardage a much more meaningful exercise.
> 
> You can make it a simple + or - grading, or you can grade out certain aspects of your shot. Whatever level of details you're personality can handle.


Ah, but first you have to be able to identify that "perfect shot"... which has been just one of the problems I've experienced shooting short range. I just can't do it, don't know why, just can't. I've been shooting short range for years, both right and left handed without seeing any measurable improvement in my shooting. Based on this very large sampling, I've had to reassess my training strategy. On November 21st I started training at 30 yards on a 60cm face. In only 5 short days I've seen my groups tighten significantly and my confidence build. I have a better feel for that good shot and my range of motion (float) is getting smaller... When I move in closer to 20 yards I'm easily able to duplicate the shot I've been working on at 30 yards. I'm not foolish enough to believe this will provide an instant solution to my quest, but I am willing to put the time and effort into this strategy.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> Ah, but first you have to be able to identify that "perfect shot"... which has been just one of the problems I've experienced shooting short range. I just can't do it, don't know why, just can't. I've been shooting short range for years, both right and left handed without seeing any measurable improvement in my shooting. Based on this very large sampling, I've had to reassess my training strategy. On November 21st I started training at 30 yards on a 60cm face. In only 5 short days I've seen my groups tighten significantly and my confidence build. *I have a better feel for that good shot and my range of motion (float) is getting smaller... When *I move in closer to 20 yards I'm easily able to duplicate the shot I've been working on at 30 yards. I'm not foolish enough to believe this will provide an instant solution to my quest, but I am willing to put the time and effort into this strategy.


Are you measuring your good shots based on how the float looks?


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## EPLC

Ned250 said:


> Are you measuring your good shots based on how the float looks?


No, actually those can be my worst shots. Fixating on float, pin movement, etc., is a killer for me. My best shots are those that smooth out as I'm pushing/pulling until the shot breaks... When this happens I'm focusing on the X. When I get it right, things settle in quite nicely just before the shot breaks. I can feel these things at 30 yards but can not at very short range. What seems to be a good shot on the short bale doesn't translate as such at real world distances.


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## EPLC

My 60cm faces are in! Now I can stop using up my ink  As you can see I'm very committed to doing this 30 yard drill. I'm fortunate to have the facility to be able to do this 30 yard drill most mornings...


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> My 60cm faces are in! Now I can stop using up my ink  As you can see I'm very committed to doing this 30 yard drill. I'm fortunate to have the facility to be able to do this 30 yard drill most mornings...


Now before you leave for home Walk up to the 14 yard line and do the same thing your doing at 30. don't even set the sight.
let the arrow hit high who cares what the score is, by your own admission it already is bad so don't worry about it.
what you want to take with you is the feel of the body positions. then you take that feel to your basement and practice the feel.
no target just the feel of what works at 30 but do it up close. I won't be too long before you can feel your collapse and other flaws.
once you can feel the flaws coming on , then you can let down and do over. 
Good Luck, this takes a lot of work on faith because your score won't improve until after you have the new form ingrained into your shot.
Been there and done it, now I am at the point of finding out if any of the new will help the score or not? time will Tell....


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## EPLC

Here's 3 pictures of the same 60cm target after 30, 45 and 60 arrows shot this morning from 30 yards. Face #1 seems to have the best grouping, less so in face #2 and it looks like I'm getting fatigued by face #3 as I'm dropping out low left. What say you?


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## Bees

the low lefts smell like collapse from the bow arm side. 
I'm low right when it happens to me.

When that happens I have to make a more concentrated effort to push the bow at the target the same all the way through the shot.
most of the time I will start with the right amount of push at the target, but if I over aim, I forget about the bow arm push and end up collapsing just that little bit and I'm low right. Unwanted reaction to aiming hard... So my fight goes...

I don't think you can over push the bow at the target at this point, so push hard and keep that hard push going.
eventually your subconscious mind will get the massage that your desire to push the bow hard at the target and it will take over those duties.
but until it does you will have to have push hard at the target in your though process as you think your way thru your shot.
So stay strong at both the front and the back and trudge on....

It has taken me about 11 months, to get my push at the target semi-automatic, so to speak.


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## Bees

the next Question is when your holding or I guess what you call aiming how steady is the sight picture?
Can you divide the sight movement up into two parts, how steady is it when at full draw and not yet started to release.
then when you start to release, does it get bigger?

for me I would see my float around the ten and out into the 9. but when I started my release action, my sight would jump and move. It would get bigger, and sometimes go out into the red just when the arrow released. 
so the fight for me got to be how to get though the release smoothly without making the float motion bigger.
and that has taken me the last 12 years to get it.... ( rhomboid muscle range of motion issue) 
and the other fight was how to make the float smaller, which for me was alignment issue and bow arm strength issue, getting that solved too..


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## SonnyThomas

Well, target labeled #1 is the best target throughout. #2 is second best and the same height as #1. #3, higher, has a "decent" group, just low left. Figure 3 sets and the #3 target is just a reflection of the target being high, so a possibility of form or a sighting issue.


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## N7709K

Feel is feel- if you gauge good shots off feel, then distance doesn't matter and neither does whether or not you are aiming at a target face.... I'm getting a feeling something else is dictating what a good shot is and isn't....

That said, of the above 60 arrows how many did you let down?


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## ron w

N7709K, is on the right track.....


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> That said, of the above 60 arrows how many did you let down?


This is the million dollar question right here!!


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Feel is feel- if you gauge good shots off feel, then distance doesn't matter and neither does whether or not you are aiming at a target face.... I'm getting a feeling something else is dictating what a good shot is and isn't....
> 
> That said, of the above 60 arrows how many did you let down?


I think I let down twice. And to your second point I'm not even sure I understand a good shot so these represent my best effort today. I know the better I hold the better I shoot. The "good" shot... I know it when it happens but can not actually duplicate it in my mine after the fact. This makes it very difficult to duplicate physically. I'm developing a push/pull execution which I haven't done in some time. I did some blind baling this morning before I went to the club. It definitely felt different than when a target is in front of me. When the target is there I have trouble pushing off. I'm sure this is some kind of psychological issue indicating my mental game needs fixing. Problem is I don't know how to fix that.


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## N7709K

Two let downs... Okay. So 58 out of the 60 shots were good right out of the gate? Do you agree with that? 

Just flogging the bale won't ever get you where you want to be....


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Two let downs... Okay. So 58 out of the 60 shots were good right out of the gate? Do you agree with that?
> 
> Just flogging the bale won't ever get you where you want to be....


No, but they were my best effort for today. Many of these shots probably would fall into the letdown category but broke down at a point where it would be impossible to letdown. I'm not sure how to fix that.


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## N7709K

If when you COME TO ANCHOR things do not feel right, LET DOWN. If you know the shot is sub par, let down. Having a "best effort" so to speak results in just flogging the bale... Shots aren't going to directly transfer from blank bale to a target when the personality shooting at the target doesn't know anything different than what it has done for thousands and thousands of shots. The shooter needs to relearn how to shoot the new process and work the new process into the routine before it will transition.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> I think I let down twice. And to your second point I'm not even sure I understand a good shot so these represent my best effort today. I know the better I hold the better I shoot. The "good" shot... I know it when it happens but can not actually duplicate it in my mine after the fact. This makes it very difficult to duplicate physically. I'm developing a push/pull execution which I haven't done in some time. I did some blind baling this morning before I went to the club. It definitely felt different than when a target is in front of me. When the target is there I have trouble pushing off. I'm sure this is some kind of psychological issue indicating my mental game needs fixing. Problem is I don't know how to fix that.


yep I know exactly what your talking about. 
The problem for me was on the short bale I could do my shot sequence without any hesitation or hang ups. 
But move out to 20 with a target and I wasn't as smooth. 
This is when I had to forget about the score completely and just look at the center and trust that I could hit the center. 
So for this phase of development my conscious thought was totally on my release method. 
Aiming became secondary importance and getting thru my shot with my chosen method was primary importance 
even if the sight wasn't exactly where I wanted it.
I had to trust that it would happen and it finally did...

the other problem I had, was I couldn't feel when the shot was going bad.(all of them felt good)
so since I didn't know it was going bad I didn't stop the cycle.
it seems now I am just getting the feel for when the shot is breaking down
so, I can save a few now, by stopping the cycle (let down).


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## ron w

any time you take your conscious focus off of aiming, you are doing your shot process no good. 
if you have to think about the release execution, it's time to abandon the shot completely and re-evaluate your release execution's ability to run by itself. in other words,.....maybe it's time to jump back in front of the blind bale and refresh your sub conscious release process. when you don't refuse a set up that distracts, or forcibly reorganizes the "system", even temporarily, you are reinforcing that the shot process "as a whole" is running OK when you have to consciously think about something other than aiming. 

Bees,
that's what the "shot widow timing drills" are for. you earn that the good shots go in a specific range of time from anchor and you will have an ingrained connection to that specific time through your internal clock. a shot that isn't running according to that time frame, will take longer to develop and your internal clock will recognize this and let you know. when it does, abide by it and abandon the shot. if you haven't developed that shot window time, it is suggested that you do that before any other work on shot development. 
the general order of development is....
#1,.... blind bale..... to learn the subconscious release execution. that is necessary as the basis for developing the shot window time, because the subconscious release process is the instrument that allows the shot window to establish itself.
then #2,.... the "shot window timing drill" itself, that establishes the cadence that your shot runs on to produce the best shot results and establishes the "standard", against which your internal clock measures how well the shot is proceeding. without that established "standard"....you don't recognize when things are going south.
EPLC.....this, above,.... is where you learn that "perfect shot" 
by the time you have developed your shot to this level, you have developed a release execution that will run by itself and run in a fairly specific and consistent amount of time and you have developed a standard of that time that compares how the shot is running to what is known to produce a good shot. 
you then have the bases covered. you have a shot that runs consistently and a "control" that watches the shot develop and tells you when it isn't running the way it should. 
now,.... you don't have to think about it while you make the shot. it becomes like knowing the way to the grocery store....you don't think about it , you just do it and if you make a wrong turn, you know it, half way through the turn. 
and #3.....you also have a "corrector"...the let down,.....which tells the shot process it screwed up, so the next time, it runs the way it's supposed to.
when these three elements are in place and running correctly the only thing you have to consciously think about is aligning the sights, so your "focus" as far as the shot goes, is all getting that arrow in the middle.
EPLC, this is where N7709K and I say your focus is mis-directed....you need to develop the above three elements of your shot process, before you can direct all of your focus on the score your shots are producing. and it is whay you don't recognize the flaws you have in your short bale shooting,....you haven't developed that "standard", yet.


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## Bees

ron w said:


> any time you take your conscious focus off of aiming, you are doing your shot process no good.
> if you have to think about the release execution, it's time to abandon the shot completely and re-evaluate your release execution's ability to run by itself. in other words,.....maybe it's time to jump back in front of the blind bale and refresh your sub conscious release process. when you don't refuse a set up that distracts, or forcibly reorganizes the "system", even temporarily, you are reinforcing that the shot process "as a whole" is running OK when you have to consciously think about something other than aiming.
> 
> Bees,
> that's what the "shot widow timing drills" are for. you earn that the good shots go in a specific range of time from anchor and you will have an ingrained connection to that specific time through your internal clock. a shot that isn't running according to that time frame, will take longer to develop and your internal clock will recognize this and let you know. when it does, abide by it and abandon the shot. if you haven't developed that shot window time, it is suggested that you do that before any other work on shot development.
> the general order of development is....
> #1,.... blind bale..... to learn the subconscious release execution. that is necessary as the basis for developing the shot window time, because the subconscious release process is the instrument that allows the shot window to establish itself.
> then #2,.... the "shot window timing drill" itself, that establishes the cadence that your shot runs on to produce the best shot results and establishes the "standard", against which your internal clock measures how well the shot is proceeding. without that established "standard"....you don't recognize when things are going south.
> EPLC.....this, above,.... is where you learn that "perfect shot"
> by the time you have developed your shot to this level, you have developed a release execution that will run by itself and run in a fairly specific and consistent amount of time and you have developed a standard of that time that compares how the shot is running to what is known to produce a good shot.
> you then have the bases covered. you have a shot that runs consistently and a "control" that watches the shot develop and tells you when it isn't running the way it should.
> now,.... you don't have to think about it while you make the shot. it becomes like knowing the way to the grocery store....you don't think about it , you just do it and if you make a wrong turn, you know it, half way through the turn.
> and #3.....you also have a "corrector"...the let down,.....which tells the shot process it screwed up, so the next time, it runs the way it's supposed to.
> when these three elements are in place and running correctly the only thing you have to consciously think about is aligning the sights, so your "focus" as far as the shot goes, is all getting that arrow in the middle.
> EPLC, this is where N7709K and I say your focus is mis-directed....you need to develop the above three elements of your shot process, before you can direct all of your focus on the score your shots are producing. and it is whay you don't recognize the flaws you have in your short bale shooting,....you haven't developed that "standard", yet.


Nope, Not going to change... 
Go over to the KSL web sight and read what the Olympic archery Coach has to say about where your conscious thought should be during the shot cycle. 

I will repeat what I do again.
My conscious thought is 100% on my chosen release method during my shot cycle.
that chosen release method is Expansion caused by rhomboid muscle contraction.
Aiming is secondary for me.. 
and just has coach Lee has promised, when executed correctly the arrow lands in the only place it can land.
and that is in the middle of the target.

so you do it your way, 
But I have too many arrows in the X's doing it coach Lees way...

So I will continue with my Draw, Transfer, Hold and Expansion.


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## N7709K

If you shoot the same shot every time AND your dot is in the middle, you'll put arrows in the middle. It doesn't really matter the method you use to get there. When you are looking to inprove your scores you need to make changes- if you don't wanna make changes you don't wanna get better... Just sayin


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## Bees

N7709K said:


> If you shoot the same shot every time AND your dot is in the middle, you'll put arrows in the middle. It doesn't really matter the method you use to get there. When you are looking to inprove your scores you need to make changes- if you don't wanna make changes you don't wanna get better... Just sayin


I am improving, X count is on the way up and it's because I changed to coach Lees way.
not going to change because you guys don't agree..


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## N7709K

His way will work until you have your shot learned- at that point you'll plateau below your peak level... At that point with the shot learned, the process can reset and it can be built around the now learned and subsequently subconsciously ran shot. At this point the conscious mind is free to aim and run it's mental program; if you know you are going to hit the middle it's easy to let the dot sit there...

KSL is an... Interesting... Topic and his approach to coaching, especially with compound. I'm not saying don't use what he teaches or what is working for you; don't read that into it, I am pulling from my years on and off the line working with the best out there and from the supplemental material I have gone through in a few coaching certs, fixing my own issues I have encountered, conversations with the best in the business. 

Regardless of skill level many of the plateaus and roadblocks impact all shooters equally; if the journey is looked at as a whole and not broken down based upon skillset all shooters will be in the same positions at some point or another. Many high level and respected coaches have similar approaches and feeling about certain topics- the amount of crossover is very large. If KSL's way is working- good, stick with it UNTIL it plateaus out... At that point flogging the bale with the same approach won't improve things


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## ron w

there is always more than one "school of thought" , or "coaching theory", as soon as you get away from the foundational basics of doing any sport there is. if what you are doing and what your coach says, works for you, that's what you have to do. nobody's trying to make you change., just because they post their idea, or version of what they believe is the way it should be done.
I've got to go to that KSL sight and look around. I have a feeling that his methods is "subconscious aiming with conscious execution. this is widely accepted as the preferred method for Olympic style recurve shooting, because of the level of physical stress at full draw, compared to a compound. 
that said, there's no reason it wouldn't work, applied to shooting a compound, as well. it is simply one of several theories of coaching centered around archery. no more or no less effective , than any other of the accepted methodologies. it is simply the one that appealed to you. if it works,... it works,.... simple as that.
if we didn't have al those different theories and coaching methods, we'd have a lot less people that were really good at archery
I didn't post that with the intention of suggesting you change whatever you're doing. I just explained what I think is the way to go about developing your shot in hopes of helping you or anyone else that might read it.


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## Bees

N7709K said:


> His way will work until you have your shot learned- at that point you'll plateau below your peak level... At that point with the shot learned, the process can reset and it can be built around the now learned and subsequently subconsciously ran shot. At this point the conscious mind is free to aim and run it's mental program; if you know you are going to hit the middle it's easy to let the dot sit there...
> 
> KSL is an... Interesting... Topic and his approach to coaching, especially with compound. I'm not saying don't use what he teaches or what is working for you; don't read that into it, I am pulling from my years on and off the line working with the best out there and from the supplemental material I have gone through in a few coaching certs, fixing my own issues I have encountered, conversations with the best in the business.
> 
> Regardless of skill level many of the plateaus and roadblocks impact all shooters equally; if the journey is looked at as a whole and not broken down based upon skillset all shooters will be in the same positions at some point or another. Many high level and respected coaches have similar approaches and feeling about certain topics- the amount of crossover is very large. If KSL's way is working- good, stick with it UNTIL it plateaus out... At that point flogging the bale with the same approach won't improve things


sorry ron, I'm pursuing a different school of though but thanks for your concern anyway.

doing it ron w's way( 11 years worth) I plateaued out at 299 with occasional 300 with 45 to 50X (lots of 299 with 47 or 48x's)
on the Vegas face I plateaued out at 292 with occasional up to 298 with 10-15X's.

I spent the last 11 months making the changes to KSL way. 
Now the changes are made, So now I will find out where I plateau out.
Yesterday I worked on my scope and sight picture, I think I got something that holds promise
and the early results already have that 299 with 48X beat. 
I think where I'll wind up in all of this is a self made hybrid, between both of the systems, as there are parts from the old way that I liked.

I'll trudge on... and I'll do it my way......


----------



## ron w

that's the great thing about all the different theories...... one of them will fit you. you just have to research them , until you find the one that grabs your attention. no saying an one is an better than any other. there is one that will work for someone and one that will be more applicable to someone's problem area, than another. the job is to find the one that works best for you.
the problems arise when an individual is reluctant to openly accept one or another methodology completely and follow the advice from start to finish, or skip steps. it is truly a situation where you have to adopt the method wholly, because one element supports another , in each individual methodology. 
you are doing the right thing by refusing to consider some other method n the middle of what you are working with at the present time.
I've been involved in sports on fairly high levels of competition, all the way to being considered for national and Olympic level in speed skating when I was younger and one of the most commonly heard advices, is that when you decide on a coach, abandon all other ideas and work on specifically what only your coach tells you. he has developed his routine and methodology according to what he knows works. that's why he's the "coach".


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## Bees

so the name of this thread is Issues with short range training.
ever wonder why EPLC has so many issues with short range training?

Here is my take on it:
every archer develops a shot cycle, routine, of some kind.
every shot cycle, routine has some conscious thought and some unconscious though in it.
nobody knows exactly what the subconscious mind is doing to help you accomplish your conscious minds goal while shooting, but the subconscious mind is very engaged in any physical activity you may choose to do. ( when you walk across the floor do you think about any of the muscles involved? subconscious mind is moving all kinds of muscle so you can walk and you never consciously think about it.)
subconscious mind also wants to conserve energy. so it will try to do as little as possible and still accomplish the goal.

here in lies the problem.. at short range the arrow isn't in the air very long.
so your form doesn't have to be top notch to get the arrow to land where you want it.
so the subconscious mind throws the skimpy energy conserving program at it and asked you is this OK? 
arrow lands in the X so you say OK it's good.
so your subconscious mind is happy it has conserved energy and still satisfied the conscious mind.
everything works good until you increase the distance.

the weak form Rare's it's ugly head and you are not happy.

so to make short range shooting work I have too consciously demand the long program from my subconscious mind.
nope it tell it, just because we are up close I don't want the energy saving short version of my shot.
I want the full blown good form version. 
subconscious mind reluctantly gives in after a while (sometimes a long while) and starts running the energy consuming long version.

my conscious mind is happy, my subconscious mind has to figure out how to conserve energy with a different activity. 
after time it will try to conserve energy and short cut the shooting activity as well, so I always have to keep on top of this and keep demanding
that the long version is used, not the short one.. no matter how far away the target is.. 

EPLC has never demanded his long version up close, 
so all he gets is his short energy saving version and it don't work at distance. 

I call it the short range trap... 
and that's my theory on it and I'm stickin to it.....


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> so the name of this thread is Issues with short range training.
> ever wonder why EPLC has so many issues with short range training?
> 
> Here is my take on it:
> every archer develops a shot cycle, routine, of some kind.
> every shot cycle, routine has some conscious thought and some unconscious though in it.
> nobody knows exactly what the subconscious mind is doing to help you accomplish your conscious minds goal while shooting, but the subconscious mind is very engaged in any physical activity you may choose to do. ( when you walk across the floor do you think about any of the muscles involved? subconscious mind is moving all kinds of muscle so you can walk and you never consciously think about it.)
> subconscious mind also wants to conserve energy. so it will try to do as little as possible and still accomplish the goal.
> 
> here in lies the problem.. at short range the arrow isn't in the air very long.
> so your form doesn't have to be top notch to get the arrow to land where you want it.
> so the subconscious mind throws the skimpy energy conserving program at it and asked you is this OK?
> arrow lands in the X so you say OK it's good.
> so your subconscious mind is happy it has conserved energy and still satisfied the conscious mind.
> everything works good until you increase the distance.
> 
> the weak form Rare's it's ugly head and you are not happy.
> 
> so to make short range shooting work I have too consciously demand the long program from my subconscious mind.
> nope it tell it, just because we are up close I don't want the energy saving short version of my shot.
> I want the full blown good form version.
> subconscious mind reluctantly gives in after a while (sometimes a long while) and starts running the energy consuming long version.
> 
> my conscious mind is happy, my subconscious mind has to figure out how to conserve energy with a different activity.
> after time it will try to conserve energy and short cut the shooting activity as well, so I always have to keep on top of this and keep demanding
> that the long version is used, not the short one.. no matter how far away the target is..
> 
> EPLC has never demanded his long version up close,
> so all he gets is his short energy saving version and it don't work at distance.
> 
> I call it the short range trap...
> and that's my theory on it and I'm stickin to it.....


The only problem I see with this explanation is the how part? The subconscious does it's tasks without permission from the conscious so you can't "tell" it to do anything. As soon as you implement the "tell it" part you are no longer using the subconscious, you are using the conscious. Now if you are saying that you consciously do not allow yourself to get lazy when shooting at short range in an effort to reprogram the subconscious I can agree. My problem is I've not been able to do this, or any other of the 100's of schemes I've tried at short range. I just don't get the feedback needed to make any short range target shooting worth the effort. I've been to the well, drank the Kool-Aid and I'm done with it. Now I do see that blind baling has purpose and I intend to continue to use that for specific form changes or issues needing correction.


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## 60435

if you are going to shoot close dont use spots, leave your site set at 20 create a spot about the size of an arrow or smaller. concentrate floating your pin in the spot allow your arrows to shoot high dont worry about where its at soon your arrows will be in the same hole. this technique works great at 10 yards and keeps your target point of aim clean..
i use this when my shots begin to get sloppy


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> The only problem I see with this explanation is the how part? The subconscious does it's tasks without permission from the conscious so you can't "tell" it to do anything. As soon as you implement the "tell it" part you are no longer using the subconscious, you are using the conscious. Now if you are saying that you consciously do not allow yourself to get lazy when shooting at short range in an effort to reprogram the subconscious I can agree. My problem is I've not been able to do this, or any other of the 100's of schemes I've tried at short range. I just don't get the feedback needed to make any short range target shooting worth the effort. I've been to the well, drank the Kool-Aid and I'm done with it. Now I do see that blind baling has purpose and I intend to continue to use that for specific form changes or issues needing correction.


you just answered your own question, don't shoot at a target up close. 
just shoot the 30 yard shot at the up close bale.


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## SonnyThomas

60435 said:


> if you are going to shoot close dont use spots, leave your site set at 20 create a spot about the size of an arrow or smaller. concentrate floating your pin in the spot allow your arrows to shoot high dont worry about where its at soon your arrows will be in the same hole. this technique works great at 10 yards and keeps your target point of aim clean..
> i use this when my shots begin to get sloppy


I couldn't center a spot of arrow size with EPLC's rig, about looking through a 5 gallon bucket to me, but to each his own.
Evidently I have stupid eyes because with a 4X lens my .019" completely covers the 10 ring of the Vegas target or can stack my pin to something and drive "tacks."

EPLC's scope - 5/8" approx. if he hasn't changed it.









stacking pin to locking tube holes, 20 yards.


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## ron w

Bees is exactly right....
his problem is simply that he is allowing his shot process to do whatever it takes to produce a shot that puts the arrow in the middle, rather than training it to perform in a specific manor.
it is doing this task as process of his sub conscious, but it is exactly that,.... his sub conscious, that has become trained to do whatever it needs to produce an arrow in the middle, rather than perform the task in a specific way . 
the difference is that the shot process needs to be taught that "this is the way you do it" and then adopt a application that produces the arrow in the middle, according to doing it the way it is taught to do it. when it doesn't learn the application, it continues to do the same process that works at short yardage where the flaws that aren't detected at short yardage, don't influence the results at longer distances. when the flaws are detected and "policed" at short yardage, the shot process learns to avoid those flaws "because" they influence the results at longer distances. as long as the results are what is wanted at short distance, the shot process will go on believing it is doing well, when the distance is long enough that the flaws produce less than desirable results.
basically, he has to stop metering his progress by the measure of "arrows in the center" and start metering his progress by how well the shot adopts the application of it's control over the results.
in simpler terms, no matter how focused he gets at short baling, he is just "flinging arrows at the target", as long as he doesn't learn to establish that standard that warns him of a shot running poorly. the urgent intent to put the arrow in the middle, is blocking the ability to define the controls that produce the execution that satisfies the goal at longer distances.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> I couldn't center a spot of arrow size with EPLC's rig, about looking through a 5 gallon bucket to me, but to each his own.
> Evidently I have stupid eyes because with a 4X lens my .019" completely covers the 10 ring of the Vegas target or can stack my pin to something and drive "tacks."
> 
> EPLC's scope - 5/8" approx. if he hasn't changed it.
> View attachment 2095586
> 
> 
> 
> stacking pin to locking tube holes, 20 yards.


LOL, Yes it's about 5/8" but I actually took the thing completely out this morning and did fine with just the scope housing  like you said, to each his own.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> Bees is exactly right....
> ...he is allowing his shot process to do whatever it takes to produce a shot that puts the arrow in the middle, rather than training it to perform in a specific manor.


Yes, this explains my method(s) of execution quite well... Since I've always done it this way it would be very difficult to change... not even sure it would be possible or that I would have the desire to do so.


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## ron w

the problem with that, is that t doesn't reinforce the consistency and the uniformity that that transfers from producing X's at the short bale to producing X's at 20 yards. you even admit, the shot feels different at long range vs. short baling.....and it shouldn't...... it is the exact same shot.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> the problem with that, is that t doesn't reinforce the consistency and the uniformity that that transfers from producing X's at the short bale to producing X's at 20 yards. you even admit, the shot feels different at long range vs. short baling.....and it shouldn't...... it is the exact same shot.


But I've already taken steps to eliminate the "problem"... As I no longer shoot short bale with a target face.


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## ron w

you will learn nothing from flinging arrows at a blank bale unless you are working on the subconscious part of your execution. then, if that is your intension, it must be done with eyes closed and your concentration directed at the feel of the muscular activity that is producing the shot. beyond that, it does you no good to try to apply your execution to the shot without a target. your shot is most likely well developed enough that sub conscious command doesn't need to be worked on any more. 
what is needed is to apply the execution to shooting at a target, but you need to abandon the "addiction" to getting the arrow in the x ring and concentrate on the actual application of the process to the physical activity of the shot itself. this has to be done with a target, because the application needs to learn to run while being controlled by the sight picture of target alignment. this is where you need to set that standard of float range control, in order to establish what is acceptable and what is not. the only way to do this is to short bale with a target and teach that acceptable range by abandoning shots that exceed the acceptable float range, with a let down. that is what the "let down drills do. 
you have to understand that you cannot skip steps in this development .
*teach the subconscious how to execute the shot ....blind baling
*teach the execution to run while aiming....target, concentrating on the application of the process to the execution learned in the above step...not concerning yourself at this level, about whether or not you hit the center....that will come as your shot learns to apply what it has been taught. this drill teaches the application of the process to run in co-ordination with the aiming process to produce a shot that is smooth in it's execution.....to be able to run while your conscious mind is working on something else.....like aiming.
*teach the process to run only when the sight picture and execution is running acceptably....the "let down drills". this and the above step can be combined, but neither individual step, whether combined or not, can be skipped. it is the basis that teaches the shot float control and polices form flaws by setting a parameter that compares good execution to bad execution. this is the step that has you saying, "you can't recognize your flaws", because your shot process never learned a specific way to run.
once these three elements have been ingrained to your shot, then....
*apply the whole process to producing arrows in the X ring.


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## possum trapper

It cant be the exact same shot........your doing something different.Its that simple.once you bring in outside influences things change and every human will also change.Its all about resetting your mind after every shot and executing your shot.


shoot up close or blank bail to ease your mind 

you guys come across as if you stand up close and really ingrain the feeling of the shot into mind it will be all good and that is the magical pill.

One of the biggest key to shooting well is visual image of everything you do including your aiming device being in the center letting your mind not get to high.

To shoot well in tourneys may take YOU to ease your mind up close BUT to truly get the confidence in yourself has to be done at that tourney yardage.

The reason why different coaches work is that yes all of our bones,muscles,brain works pretty much the same in general.The difference is that some people's strong traits are such a larger % of their make up.Some people are very strong at certain things like concentration so putting a pin in the middle is soooo easy for them to do.

some others can isolate very little muscles to perfection that make executing super easy for them.
some people can speak in front of a huge group and not get nervous what so ever....do you think they could shoot in front of a huge crowd???probably easier for them to do so once they do it.

IMO like you seen me post in the past if people would worry about their mental game instead of more physical they would have better results.

Me personally I believe in keep your mind on the actually executing of the shot because the bow will shoot the arrow just fine.you havea bow hand and a release hand to worry about and if I divide them 2 things I would pick #1 is release execution

how many times has the dot not been in the center and your arrow is in the center??Well IMO since your release hand is a couple inches behind the nock of arrow it is very easy to steer that thing in a not so good direction.

some people work to get release execution subconsciously and that is fine.if that's your strong point and if that's how you need to think to put the arrow in the middle do it.

we are human and everyone misses and most tourneys are won by the one's who make the least amount of mistakes

Ive shot on the line with the best in the world and ive heard a lot of I got away with one and I guaranty you they are all not doing it the same.Good luck all


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## possum trapper

you guys are really making this way harder than it is.

If you can shoot it in the x ring 1 time you can do it 2 times.find your best way to do so and get it done


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## possum trapper

For indoors I want to hone my skills at 20 yards,I want to fine tune my setup at 20 yards and for most of you know by doing this or that with weight distribution can make a ton of difference to ease your mind 

at 20 yards its my job to get use to sight picture/movement so I can execute

at further yardages it may take a split second longer to acquire target and that is a change you have to take into consideration so it wont be the exact same shot and you have to hone your skills at that yardage


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## possum trapper

can we all agree that everything we do is effort to ease our minds while shooting?But then again we do things in everyday life to ease our minds...some go the bar some go workout some smoke some don't....find what works for YOU to ease your mind and stick with it.Your 100% maybe only someone else's 80% and vice versa but that's ok


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## ron w

yup, I guess you could say that. everything we do is an effort to remove our conscious thought from the process of shooting a bow.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> yup, I guess you could say that. everything we do is an effort to remove our conscious thought from the process of shooting a bow.


I'm not sure I agree with that at all. The conscious mind is going to be involved in the process no matter what you do. The trick is to give it specific assignments throughout the process to keep it busy enough to stay out of the way... and out of trouble. Last night we had one of our weekly club competitions and this was the result of a 450 round. Target one had me stumped all night, target two was almost acceptable and target three was a tad wider but not too bad. I did let down quite a bit but still struggled on that first shot.


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## possum trapper

So the question for all of you is what are you looking at while drawing the bow and what are you thinking about while your drawing the bow and more importantly what are YOU thinking about at full draw??Also is it the exact same everytime or does it change?


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## Ned250

possum trapper said:


> So the question for all of you is what are you looking at while drawing the bow and what are you thinking about while your drawing the bow and more importantly what are YOU thinking about at full draw??Also is it the exact same everytime or does it change?


Man that guys bow is loud. 
Whoa wax your strings, pal. 
Oh the buzzer sounded!
OK, clean strong shots. 
Hmmm that draw felt weird, Ahhhh well I'm holding fine. 
Why isn't this thing going off?
Oh I'm sinking low, I better let down. 
Nahhhhh I can fight this back up. 
Ooops is that a 9? 
OK short term memory loss. Shoot this one better. 
Is that guy talking to himself?
Dang that dude shot three shots already?
I wonder what the score of the Pats game is.
Ugh I'm hungry. 
Ooops I got lucky on that one.
I can't wait for next weeks shoot. THAT will be my week. 
Oh yeah there it is. I just need to replicate this 57 more times.


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## ILOVE3D

Ned250 said:


> Man that guys bow is loud.
> Whoa wax your strings, pal.
> Oh the buzzer sounded!
> OK, clean strong shots.
> Hmmm that draw felt weird, Ahhhh well I'm holding fine.
> Why isn't this thing going off?
> Oh I'm sinking low, I better let down.
> Nahhhhh I can fight this back up.
> Ooops is that a 9?
> OK short term memory loss. Shoot this one better.
> Is that guy talking to himself?
> Dang that dude shot three shots already?
> I wonder what the score of the Pats game is.
> Ugh I'm hungry.
> Ooops I got lucky on that one.
> I can't wait for next weeks shoot. THAT will be my week.
> Oh yeah there it is. I just need to replicate this 57 more times.


That was funny. Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning.


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## possum trapper

Ned250 said:


> Man that guys bow is loud.
> Whoa wax your strings, pal.
> Oh the buzzer sounded!
> OK, clean strong shots.
> Hmmm that draw felt weird, Ahhhh well I'm holding fine.
> Why isn't this thing going off?
> Oh I'm sinking low, I better let down.
> Nahhhhh I can fight this back up.
> Ooops is that a 9?
> OK short term memory loss. Shoot this one better.
> Is that guy talking to himself?
> Dang that dude shot three shots already?
> I wonder what the score of the Pats game is.
> Ugh I'm hungry.
> Ooops I got lucky on that one.
> I can't wait for next weeks shoot. THAT will be my week.
> Oh yeah there it is. I just need to replicate this 57 more times.



this is so funny and so true..Thanks!


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## SonnyThomas

Ned250 said:


> Man that guys bow is loud.
> Whoa wax your strings, pal.
> Oh the buzzer sounded!
> OK, clean strong shots.
> Hmmm that draw felt weird, Ahhhh well I'm holding fine.
> Why isn't this thing going off?
> Oh I'm sinking low, I better let down.
> Nahhhhh I can fight this back up.
> Ooops is that a 9?
> OK short term memory loss. Shoot this one better.
> Is that guy talking to himself?
> Dang that dude shot three shots already?
> I wonder what the score of the Pats game is.
> Ugh I'm hungry.
> Ooops I got lucky on that one.
> I can't wait for next weeks shoot. THAT will be my week.
> Oh yeah there it is. I just need to replicate this 57 more times.


Funny, but if you got half that much running through your mind you best take up Checkers.


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## Ned250

SonnyThomas said:


> Funny, but if you got half that much running through your mind you best take up Checkers.


That's only about half of what is running through my mind.


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## possum trapper

SonnyThomas said:


> Funny, but if you got half that much running through your mind you best take up Checkers.



checkers takes so much more thinking than archery


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## ArcherXXX300

Bees said:


> I can tell you it is easier to commit to the shot with the smaller float.


EPLC

Good thread here. I haven't read through everything entirely yet....however I shoot target archery as well. I'm not great but I'm in the 290's consistently on a Vegas face and I've only been shooting competitively for 2 years now....anyway long story short here about why the short range games are so much better.

Float, mental game, sight picture.

You will always see less movement at short distance, you can actually fool your brain into thinking your holding steadier with less magnification, a larger dot or pin, or moving your sight bar in etc. but you know that. Seeing less movement for me always leads to a more confident shot. However some of the best 5 spot rounds I've ever shot I shot with a 8X tru-spot lens with I believe a .375" grind, it took getting used to but seeing all the added movement I believe helped me. 

I've got my own issues that I can't figure out though. I have no idea where my pin is when the shot breaks, I can't shoot a large dot, a ring I don't see particularly well unless I use a ton of them to make one small ring, but the tru-spot lens I shot well.

I was told "Piss on the pin" and I blind bailed for a month quite some time ago and never really paid attention to it again. I shoot a deer or a turkey, I literally just know the range put the pin where I want to hit and then focus on what I want to hit and don't even pay any attention to the pin really and the shot just happens, it is very strange to me.

Back to your issues and progress....hope some of that made sense, I'm rambling now.


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## TDS

possum trapper said:


> So the question for all of you is what are you looking at while drawing the bow and what are you thinking about while your drawing the bow and more importantly what are YOU thinking about at full draw??Also is it the exact same everytime or does it change?


Intersting, my focus the last few days practicing has been to not look at the target during the draw.. Once anchored in I look at target and start my shot sequence at the same time.. Seems to help me focus on the shot sequence.


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## ILOVE3D

TDS said:


> Intersting, my focus the last few days practicing has been to not look at the target during the draw.. Once anchored in I look at target and start my shot sequence at the same time.. Seems to help me focus on the shot sequence.


It's all about what works best for you. For me, after I started focusing on the spot I wanted to hit just before drawing back my dot came up right on the spot or pretty close and it moved over the X immediately making the rest of my shot process so easy to put into action. I think the extra focus helped me continue the focus rather than find the spot after drawing back which took some precious time and that of course made my shot deteriorate faster.


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> checkers takes so much more thinking than archery


That's what I meant. You're going think, think, think you may as well be playing checkers. Now if you play chess you really put on the Thinking Hat, like you're supposed think 5 moves ahead of any possible move your opponent may make.


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## TDS

ILOVE3D said:


> It's all about what works best for you. For me, after I started focusing on the spot I wanted to hit just before drawing back my dot came up right on the spot or pretty close and it moved over the X immediately making the rest of my shot process so easy to put into action. I think the extra focus helped me continue the focus rather than find the spot after drawing back which took some precious time and that of course made my shot deteriorate faster.


Thanks, I just tried that and You are correct... Now I have 2 methods.. I definitely like the other while working on the shot sequence.


----------



## ron w

EPLC said:


> I'm not sure I agree with that at all. The conscious mind is going to be involved in the process no matter what you do. The trick is to give it specific assignments throughout the process to keep it busy enough to stay out of the way... and out of trouble. Last night we had one of our weekly club competitions and this was the result of a 450 round. Target one had me stumped all night, target two was almost acceptable and target three was a tad wider but not too bad. I did let down quite a bit but still struggled on that first shot.


that doesn't mean we don't work to keep out of the shot. no,.....keeping it busy on other "assignments", is a distraction to the shot process as well. let downs during a round, doesn't mean you have a hold on your shot execution, one little bit. the idea of training with the let down drills, is to tailor your execution to the point that let downs from form, or execution flaws during a scoring round, don't happen. the idea is train to not have to let down during a round, not to "accept" that you inevitably will. the state of mind is that a let down is as valuable as the good shot, because it saves you from potentially loosing points from a poor shot, but ultimately, it is better, if you do not have to rely on that to get through a round without leaving points on the target.
You're just not seeing the whole picture.


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## EPLC

I


ron w said:


> that doesn't mean we don't work to keep out of the shot. no,.....keeping it busy on other "assignments", is a distraction to the shot process as well. let downs during a round, doesn't mean you have a hold on your shot execution, one little bit. the idea of training with the let down drills, is to tailor your execution to the point that let downs from form, or execution flaws during a scoring round, don't happen. the idea is train to not have to let down during a round, not to "accept" that you inevitably will. the state of mind is that a let down is as valuable as the good shot, because it saves you from potentially loosing points from a poor shot, but ultimately, it is better, if you do not have to rely on that to get through a round without leaving points on the target.
> You're just not seeing the whole picture.


Ron, The other assignment "is" the shot process.


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## SonnyThomas

Me and me rattling. The shot process, a manner of check off and forget. Stance, address the target, both gone with initiation of drawing. Full draw, dismissed with subtle anchoring and getting on target. Anchor dismissed with being on target. Sight picture acquired, aiming is all there is. Distraction is you not concentrating, the only thing you're allowed to due harder. Maybe a shotgun blast or fist fight would be a "legal" distraction. The pin is there or the wanted sight picture is there...instinctive is the execution of the shot, no thinking. Something goes haywire, brain, has built in warning channel, instinctively takes over and the let down. And why the practice of letting down. Picture perfect, text book shot in the works, but let down. If you can let down with a perfect shot then letting down with a bad shot should be easier. 

I still have pencils from a Vic Wunderle benefit to help him go to his first Olympic outing. Radio blasting away, tin cans clanging, shouts and roars...all made Vic concentrate all the harder, not physically trying harder. The noise was there, just ignored. "Love of the Game." Costner; "Clear the mechanism." "I'm not hearing them at all." A show, entertainment, the noise doesn't go away, it just something accepted and ignored. 
On pencil; "VIC WUNDERLEE USA ARCHERY TEAM." Yep, some one misspelled Wunderle.

Reading all that of these posts and threads in Inter/Advan....So much repetition/gab to the point of being uselessness. I was getting the "glitches" trying/testing all. I don't believe in target panic, not for me. Today, I like to froze to death, but when done I was "commanding" a ragged hole on that rotten Vegas face, yeah, 20 yards. 2nd time I've shot my MarXman since end of 3D season. I didn't use the back counter weight, the 10" Stinger with 6 ounces or the Bernie V bracket and Mini Silencers. The bow felt odd with just the front stabilizer, but it didn't hinder the shot one bit. Wife hadn't called me I probably would have froze to death.
Used my other Sure Loc sight frame and had to zero in. Grande scope housing, 4X lens with circle and .029" green fiber optic pin (broken and dangling about). 3/64" peep orifice and housing isn't in the sight picture.

Just me, I swear I play harder than most practice. Try over 200 shots, around 10 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon. Yep, the 2 pencils show I was getting tired and I quit after making one more X.

TY, ASA Senior Pro, use to come to the shop when it was open. Yeah, 3D boy. He made 30 yards Xs on the NFAA 20 yard targets like it was nothing. He rubs elbows with some of the best. He doesn't come on AT. Why? "Because it's stupid. People don't believe us. We don't care if the peep needs a nose nudge. Timing? As long as it isn't too far off, shoot the damn bow." And he gave more. Tim Gillingham. "Yeah, he rolls his eyes at some of the stuff on AT." Dave Cousin, on Facebook, gave a verbal account of hand to riser and displayed his hand with lines drawn on it, classic low wrist, no grip pressure. No one gave rebuttal. Bare shaft tuning? "Yeah, if that's what you want." Levi Morgan; "Sight in at 20 yards, then 50 yards, make the arrow hit both dead on and you're set."

I'm kind of dumb, but not stupid enough to tell the above they're wrong or not believe them either.


----------



## montigre

Whew, I can't believe this has reached 7 pages. EPLC has reached a plateau in his shooting performance and has received a lot of very good information here and in similar threads on how to go about breaking through it. However, those methods, for whatever reason, do not sit well with EPLC and he spends a lot of energy arguing how this or that will not work for him and that he would prefer to do things essentially the way he had been doing them....

But continuing to do those things in the same or similar manner with the same mind set will only accomplish the goal of keeping him at his current level of performance. As Richard Bach one wrote; "_Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they are yours_."

When a shooter reaches a true performance plateau, he/she must move away from their comfort level and sometimes, take a leap of faith approach to their training and totally rework their process from the point where it is broken. But this can only be done if their mind is not already full of tricks and tips that got them where they currently are. If there is not room in the ol' cranium for new information, or old information looked at from a new angle, then no amount of time flinging arrows at a target is going to produce the desitred results. 

Maybe EPLC is more content with remaining at his current level and subconsciously does not wish to venture into the dark unknown. That is okay if that is what is really desired... Some competitors are internally satisfied with shooting well at local, state or regional competitions--there is nothing at all wrong with that thinking and those people will gain much enjoyment from the sport over the years they put into it. But if you aspire for higher achievements, if you don't want to just do well, but would like to start winning, or you want to take that winning to the national/international level, then that former comfort zone MUST be left behind.

It is probably time, EPLC, that you take time out and perform an internal inventory to establish EXACTLY what your archery goals are so that you do not put yourself into a total tailspin trying to achieve something you may not really want.


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## Lazarus

montigre said:


> Whew, I can't believe this has reached 7 pages. EPLC has reached a plateau in his shooting performance and has received a lot of very good information here and in similar threads on how to go about breaking through it. However, those methods, for whatever reason, do not sit well with EPLC and he spends a lot of energy arguing how this or that will not work for him and that he would prefer to do things essentially the way he had been doing them....
> 
> But continuing to do those things in the same or similar manner with the same mind set will only accomplish the goal of keeping him at his current level of performance. As Richard Bach one wrote; "_Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they are yours_."
> 
> When a shooter reaches a true performance plateau, he/she must move away from their comfort level and sometimes, take a leap of faith approach to their training and totally rework their process from the point where it is broken. But this can only be done if their mind is not already full of tricks and tips that got them where they currently are. If there is not room in the ol' cranium for new information, or old information looked at from a new angle, then no amount of time flinging arrows at a target is going to produce the desitred results.
> 
> Maybe EPLC is more content with remaining at his current level and subconsciously does not wish to venture into the dark unknown. That is okay if that is what is really desired... Some competitors are internally satisfied with shooting well at local, state or regional competitions--there is nothing at all wrong with that thinking and those people will gain much enjoyment from the sport over the years they put into it. But if you aspire for higher achievements, if you don't want to just do well, but would like to start winning, or you want to take that winning to the national/international level, then that former comfort zone MUST be left behind.
> 
> It is probably time, EPLC, that you take time out and perform an internal inventory to establish EXACTLY what your archery goals are so that you do not put yourself into a total tailspin trying to achieve something you may not really want.



Good post. ^

I have heard it put a different way in a quote, I'm not sure who said it. "You will never progress until the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change."


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## ron w

if you do a search, you will find that he has been posting the same questions and comments and giving essentially the same responses to advice, since about 2000 give or take. 
what he doesn't seem to grasp, at in my evaluation, is the shot should be "processed "sub consciously" and the conscious thought should be directed at one thing and only one thing, ....putting the pin on the center of the target.
all the drills we do, is to train the shot "process" to run without conscious thought, beyond the decision to start the shot execution...from that point on, the shot should run without conscious guidance, other than a decision to abandon the poorly running shot shot. the point i'm trying to make is that you cannot take conscious thought out of the process completely, you have to train the sub conscious to run right along side the conscious evaluation of how the shot is progressing, yet not let it interfere with the shot's sub conscious guidance. the sub conscious only works in the level it knows how to run in and if we train it correctly, that correct procedure it has learned, is the only way it will know to run. it can't do something wrong, if it doesn't know what to do wrong.the only time it does something wrong, is when it is distracted by conscious thought during it's performance.


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## EPLC

Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


Actually, EPLC, that is exactly what everyone has been trying to do.... 

For me, I have chosen to totally forego indoor league and local shoots and really place my concentration on shooting the short range with precision and repeatability. I know well what my short term and long term archery goals are, so I took a few days just to go over my shot routine with a fine tooth comb and find out what was working and what was not and tossed out those things that were not working well. I incorporated the assistance of a couple of pros who were able to give me some pointers on how to reach my goals and I made sure my equipment was tuned to the max. I took those recommendations and my gear and put them to work on the short and blank bales. 

Some days I have it, but somedays, especially now that I am getting closer to my first short term goal, I hit a minor plateau (I become too careful) and have to dig my feet harder and evaluate what I am doing differently to get over it. This type of training is not easy, it is not fun, and it is a lot of really hard work, both physically and mentally (mostly the latter), but my focus is on my goals right now and this is really the only way I am going to achieve them in a reasonable amount of time. I had to ask myself if I was satisfied coming in 2nd all of the time and if I was willing to sacrifice the fun of shooting in league and local tourneys to achieve the goals I have set. This was also not easy, but necessary. 

My first short term goal is the LAS Classic. I know I will not be in a position yet to win my division as I have a lot of work to do, but it is going to be used as a trial of my new process under real copetition conditions. Then I will again go back to the short bale for probably the remainder of the indoor season. My mid term goal is to place well at outdoor nationals next year and I know this is well within my abilities as I placed top 10 the last time I shot it, *if* I do not venture off my plan and start just flinging arrows without a *true* purpose. So that is what my eyes are set on...LAS, though expensive, is only another practice session in the over all scheme of things for me right now.

That is all that I have to say on the matter. Take from it what you want and need and good luck.


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## bowman72

ron w said:


> if you do a search, you will find that he has been posting the same questions and comments and giving essentially the same responses to advice, since about 2000 give or take.
> what he doesn't seem to grasp, at in my evaluation, is the shot should be "processed "sub consciously" and the conscious thought should be directed at one thing and only one thing, ....putting the pin on the center of the target.
> all the drills we do, is to train the shot "process" to run without conscious thought, beyond the decision to start the shot execution...from that point on, the shot should run without conscious guidance, other than a decision to abandon the poorly running shot shot. the point i'm trying to make is that you cannot take conscious thought out of the process completely, you have to train the sub conscious to run right along side the conscious evaluation of how the shot is progressing, yet not let it interfere with the shot's sub conscious guidance. the sub conscious only works in the level it knows how to run in and if we train it correctly, that correct procedure it has learned, is the only way it will know to run. it can't do something wrong, if it doesn't know what to do wrong.the only time it does something wrong, is when it is distracted by conscious thought during it's performance.


Excellent post.


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## ArcherXXX300

EPLC said:


> Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


I was shooting awesome I thought after blind bail for 30 days, 100-150 arrows a day at 2 yds eyes closed with a hinge. After 30 days of this and aiming at absolutely NOTHING, I was bored out of my mind. 30 days was up and I tried to aim. I started off at 20yds which was a mistake but I was amazed at what happened. There was a small speck of paper about half the size of the super X on a vegas face stuck to the blue Mckenzie foam block bails. I went through my shot process and put the pin on the speck of paper, I stared at it and stared at it and the shot simply happened without me THINKING of execute or how to execute. Needless to say I smoked that speck of paper and tried several more times on similar size objects....I won my first $10 in archery shooting a skittle at 20yds on a bet.

I've lost some of that execution due to the same stuff you're worrying about like SCORE and PLACEMENT. 

FOR ME.....30 DAYS BLIND BAIL WITH ZERO AIMING, 100-150 ARROWS A DAY. NOT IN A ROW SHOOT 2, Then pull them and mark 2 hash lines in a shooting journal until you shoot all of those shots. Do not rush the process. EYES MUST BE CLOSED.

Two words will screw up every archer if they think about them and focus only on them, "Score, Winning."

That's my opinion, I'm trying to get to the next level and I really believe I should take the indoor season off this year and work only on shot execution again.

A few weeks ago (Been busy hunting) I decided to shoot a whole game at 20yds on a NFAA single spot and shoot 1 arrow at a time. Only 1 arrow at a time walk and pull it. I ended up shooting a 300/50X. What it told me is my stance and shot setup etc. on a single arrow is very repeatable for me but not entirely. I also kept track of how many shots I let down and I only let down on 3.

These are just some things that I tried that really did up my game. Everything you do at 10yds you do at 20yds, the only difference is the amount of movement you see and the distance to the target.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


Last big things that have helped me were.

1. Added push with bow arm instead of a static arm.

2. Quit messing with my bow. Haven't changed anything in months. Same for my release.

3. Relax and focus on the process. I know if my grip is correct. Shoulders are correct. Back engaged on both halves. And have a clean release. I know where the arrow is going to go. So I don't worry about where the arrow is going to go because it is already determined if I do the process correctly. 

4. Checking my D loop for stretching more often. Started to dip in scores and inside outs and my d loop had stretched quite a bit.

I'm not sure if I am considered next level but I was a 300 54-57x guy.

Now I am a 57-59x guy.

I learned and made these changes ny talking to better shooters than me and Lanny Bassham book. 

I take pretty much everything on AT with a grain of salt. Unless a real pro comes on like Wolf44 or Scott Starnes is on here once in a while. I want advice from someone who can or has done it. Not just someone repeating what they think is correct info.

If you can't or couldn't beat me in your prime not gonna take what you have to say very seriously. But that's just me.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> I take pretty much everything on AT with a grain of salt. Unless a real pro comes on like Wolf44 or Scott Starnes is on here once in a while. I want advice from someone who can or has done it. Not just someone repeating what they think is correct info.
> But that's just me.


Well, it must be just you. I note why Pros don't frequent AT.


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


what have i done thats worked.. 

1) Close games..... lots and lots of close games
2) blank bale..... lots and lots and lots of blank bale
3) more close games....
4) more blank bale....
5) leaving certain aspects of gear alone while i address the shooter
6) picking ONE shot to shoot, learning that ONE shot, and committing to shooting ONLY that shot
7) more blank bale
8) couple hundred hours of tuning once i had the shot mastered to best make the bow work with my shot style
9) work one on one with a good coach... who said shoot more close games and blank bale
10) shoot the damn bow; just shoot it and stop caring at all whether its a 300 or a 30x
11) learn how to make the bow do what i want and need so all i need to do is shoot
12) more close games....

you can approach things however you see fit, but in the end no matter the approach you need to settle on and commit to one shot. part of that committal to that one shot is understanding for part of the process scores are going to drop; just how the game goes. Once the shot is learned it will bring scores to a higher level and plateau out at the upper ranges of your skill set.


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## ron w

the things I talk about are exactly what I did back when I was shooting competitively. I was on my way, then had a stroke that pretty much put the brakes on it for a few years. now, I just shoot because I still love archery, but i'm a far cry from the way I used to shoot. I still know what works and what doesn't, though. you don't have to have done it, to know what it does. you just have to able to talk about it and know/explain why it does what it does.


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## SonnyThomas

What I'm not seeing....grouping. Bow, sight, shooter?

I wasn't joking, pulling anyone's leg when I said that Senior Pro chewed on Xs from 30 yards like a hungry dog.... Shoot one target and only that target and you'll know your bow is grouping tight, same distance, same angle, same everything. I've kept a few bent and busted stuff over the past two years, my MarXman. 25 yards is my main practice distance and I got out to 40 yards. Bow must be somewhat repetitive. I must see somewhat well. Anything else has to be me....


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## EPLC

The major thing I've picked up here is:

While I do have and use a shot process, I do not have a specific shot, instead I have the goal of hitting center using any means possible. I really never truly release the exact same way every time. This has been going on for my entire shooting life... sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. I really never know if I'm going to break the State Record or fall on my face as I've done both with the latter being more prevalent. The concept of having a specific method of execution intrigues me and I'm working to try and fix that. I'm finding I have a better feel for this at longer ranges so I'm sticking to my 30 yard training routine. It's going to take time.


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## ron w

now you're talkin' !.


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## Lazarus

erdman41 said:


> I take pretty much everything on AT with a grain of salt. Unless a real pro comes on like Wolf44 or Scott Starnes is on here once in a while. I want advice from someone who can or has done it. Not just someone repeating what they think is correct info.
> 
> If you can't or couldn't beat me in your prime not gonna take what you have to say very seriously. But that's just me.


lol....pretty ludicrous really. 

I have a couple of questions for you, maybe three. First, if this were a golf forum would you really expect Tiger Woods to come and share? Second, if he did, what do you think he would share? Last, and most importantly, without looking can you tell me what Tiger Woods coaches name is? Think about that last one long and hard before you respond. :wink:

EPLC, I hope you have success with this new training method you are using. I'm not gonna make a "list" like some have above, I've already given you what I'm convinced was some pretty sound advice. Best, Laz


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> The concept of having a specific method of execution intrigues me and I'm working to try and fix that. I'm finding I have a better feel for this at longer ranges so I'm sticking to my 30 yard training routine. It's going to take time.


For me execution is the most vital. If whatever repeats and repeats then that's what to use. Text book does not have to be.

Maybe I'm odd, but 25 and 30 yards is my practice distance the vast majority of the time and I truly believe it has made me better.

I have a bunch of peeps and peep orifices and lens set up with different pins (all colors), and dots and circles of all colors. I have 3 Sure Loc sight frames where I can change to something different instantly. I also have a Cooper John Evo 2 with two different size scope housing and each with two size pins. I will find something that gives me the best.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Ok guys, I trust you are all having fun. Want to be really helpful? Here's an idea, instead of telling me what to do, try telling me what "you've" done to get to that next level? Of course this assumes that some of you have actually stepped up to that next level.


Not sure where the line for "next level", is drawn, but for me, the absolute most important thing is discipline. I have to get better at not taking bad shots.

This was last night. There's six bad shots. I remember each one, and I knew before I let it go, that it was a miss.


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## ron w

"getting better at not taking bad shots", pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it ? !!.


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## ron w

erdman,
"not someone repeating what they think is correct info" .....
when someone talks to you, that can, or has done it, they are repeating what they think is the correct info,...are they not ?. so if it comes from a different voice, it's suddenly not correct ?.
56 x's is the best I ever shot, I guess i'm no match for your knowledge.


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## cbrunson

ron w said:


> "getting better at not taking bad shots", pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it ? !!.


Well, assuming that at the "next level" you know the difference, then yes absolutely.


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## N7709K

I think it's more of a "do as I do, not just as I say" mentality for some... And to a point I can understand where they are coming from... Not saying it's right or wrong... To a degree I'm guilty of it on certain aspects


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> erdman,
> "not someone repeating what they think is correct info" .....
> when someone talks to you, that can, or has done it, they are repeating what they think is the correct info,...are they not ?. so if it comes from a different voice, it's suddenly not correct ?.
> 56 x's is the best I ever shot, I guess i'm no match for your knowledge.


I think right handed my PB was 56X or 57X but that was a while ago as I've been shooting LH for about 7 years now. My personal best shooting lefty is currently 54X... That said, nobody puts more effort into trying to improve their game than I do. At 62 years old, after struggling for 6 years with some kind of a nerve issue that destroyed my game I switched to shooting left hand... and I can't play the radio left handed. In the past 7 years I brought my game back to where it was and even somewhat better because I'm more consistent. Try to keep this in mind the next time you tell me I don't get it.


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## erdman41

Lazarus said:


> lol....pretty ludicrous really.
> 
> I have a couple of questions for you, maybe three. First, if this were a golf forum would you really expect Tiger Woods to come and share? Second, if he did, what do you think he would share? Last, and most importantly, without looking can you tell me what Tiger Woods coaches name is? Think about that last one long and hard before you respond. :wink:
> 
> EPLC, I hope you have success with this new training method you are using. I'm not gonna make a "list" like some have above, I've already given you what I'm convinced was some pretty sound advice. Best, Laz


Well this is not a golf forum. The big time pros used to come on here and answer questions. If you know their handle you can look up all their past posts. Most of their usernames are not very sneaky. 
Reo still answers questions on his personal web page and his youtube channel.
The main point I was making is you can ask a question on here and get 10 different answers. How do you sift through which answers are good and bad. Someone who has actually done it is how I go about it. Again thats just me.


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## erdman41

ron w said:


> erdman,
> "not someone repeating what they think is correct info" .....
> when someone talks to you, that can, or has done it, they are repeating what they think is the correct info,...are they not ?. so if it comes from a different voice, it's suddenly not correct ?.
> 56 x's is the best I ever shot, I guess i'm no match for your knowledge.


They are repeating the info that they KNOW works for them.


ron w said:


> erdman,
> "not someone repeating what they think is correct info" .....
> when someone talks to you, that can, or has done it, they are repeating what they think is the correct info,...are they not ?. so if it comes from a different voice, it's suddenly not correct ?.
> 56 x's is the best I ever shot, I guess i'm no match for your knowledge.


----------



## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> I think it's more of a "do as I do, not just as I say" mentality for some... And to a point I can understand where they are coming from... Not saying it's right or wrong... To a degree I'm guilty of it on certain aspects


It's all anyone could really go by. If it's not lessons from your own experience, it's just hearsay, or theory based on what you have read or have been told. 

I fear the latter is more often the case for most.


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## Lazarus

erdman41 said:


> Well this is not a golf forum. The big time pros used to come on here and answer questions. If you know their handle you can look up all their past posts. Most of their usernames are not very sneaky.
> Reo still answers questions on his personal web page and his youtube channel.
> The main point I was making is you can ask a question on here and get 10 different answers. How do you sift through which answers are good and bad. Someone who has actually done it is how I go about it. Again thats just me.


Before you share with me your expertise on who was here when you might check my "join date." 

That's not what you were saying above at all! You were saying unless you were a real "pro" you took everything with a grain of salt. Or you didn't want to hear from anyone that wasn't better than you in your prime. So, do you think since Tiger Woods coach hasn't won everything Tiger has he isn't qualified to instruct him?


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## erdman41

Lazarus said:


> Before you share with me your expertise on who was here when you might check my "join date."
> 
> That's not what you were saying above at all! You were saying unless you were a real "pro" you took everything with a grain of salt. Or you didn't want to hear from anyone that wasn't better than you in your prime. So, do you think since Tiger Woods coach hasn't won everything Tiger has he isn't qualified to instruct him?


Yup I'm skeptical (grain of salt) of advice from people on a public forum unless it is from someone who I know or have heard of. Again that's just me but aparantly opinions as such irritate a few on here.

I do find it strange that people would get upset that some stranger would take the advice of a pro or someone who has done it over someobody who hasn't. 

Not sure what a join date has to do with anything?

To the OP sorry for the thread diversion.

Out


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## Bees

erdman41 said:


> Well this is not a golf forum. The big time pros used to come on here and answer questions. If you know their handle you can look up all their past posts. Most of their usernames are not very sneaky.
> Reo still answers questions on his personal web page and his youtube channel.
> The main point I was making is you can ask a question on here and get 10 different answers. How do you sift through which answers are good and bad. Someone who has actually done it is how I go about it. Again thats just me.


I have been here since 2003, I have read about how to do this for a long time. 
How do I tell which is good info or bad info?
Simple I try it all out. 
It doesn't matter to me if the info was from a pro's lips or not. I'll try it anyway.
I keep what works and discard what doesn't.


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## erdman41

Bees said:


> I have been here since 2003, I have read about how to do this for a long time.
> How do I tell which is good info or bad info?
> Simple I try it all out.
> It doesn't matter to me if the info was from a pro's lips or not. I'll try it anyway.
> I keep what works and discard what doesn't.


That's one way for sure. I'm just trying to cut down on the amount of experimenting to do.


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## ron w

erdman41 said:


> They are repeating the info that they KNOW works for them.


 truth be told, most people have no clue what works for them, they just try different things and when they find something that makes a difference they think they found the answer. 
when you listen to any coach, he or she is simply repeating what he or she thinks will work for you, or anyone else. archery is not a new sport, it has been around and researched, almost as long a time itself, there are certainly specific methods that are universally accepted and known to be effective for the largest majority of shooters. if that weren't true, there would be considerably less coaches available because the value of a coach is based on his or her effective knowledge of what works for most people.
the human brain works in specifically the same way in everyone's body, it's part of humane nature, the affectivity of coaching, is based on the fact that what is taught, is taught because it makes the human brain work in a specific manor. there are variations of course, but most variations are used to apply what is taught to arrive at the same end result. the difference is in the students' ability to receive the information, not that the information has to be different for each student.
so, what works for Sally, will also work for Jimmy, the difference is how it is presented, not it's effective content. 
for some reason this forum , again, has a distorted perception that boarders on refusal, to accept what has been established as a standard. it is why you guys are all fumbling around , in the dark, with no professional shooters to give any guidance, like there used to be. 
they all knew what worked and what worked was pretty much the standard that they learned by, yet when the repeated what they thought would work for you , you guys rejected it and argued with them about it.....stupid is as stupid does.


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## TDS

Ron, please check your PM.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> Well this is not a golf forum. The big time pros used to come on here and answer questions. If you know their handle you can look up all their past posts. Again thats just me.


Well, 10 years and more of Pros being absent sort of takes the used to out of the picture.


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## cbrunson

erdman41 said:


> Yup I'm skeptical (grain of salt) of advice from people on a public forum unless it is from someone who I know or have heard of. Again that's just me but aparantly opinions as such irritate a few on here.
> 
> I do find it strange that people would get upset that some stranger would take the advice of a pro or someone who has done it over someobody who hasn't.
> 
> Not sure what a join date has to do with anything?
> 
> To the OP sorry for the thread diversion.
> 
> Out


There’s nothing wrong with taking advice here with a grain of salt. Just because a few post here a lot, doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about. You are right in feeling that way, and suggesting it to others, regardless of whether the regulars approve or not. 

There are some good things that come out occasionally. It’s like you said, take advice here with a grain of salt.


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## N7709K

cbrunson said:


> There’s nothing wrong with taking advice here with a grain of salt. Just because a few post here a lot, doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about. You are right in feeling that way, and suggesting it to others, regardless of whether the regulars approve or not.
> 
> There are some good things that come out occasionally. It’s like you said, take advice here with a grain of salt.



I don't think any of the "regulars" are saying that you cannot take the information given with a grain of salt (truth of it is that you should; especially on here...)... they just don't want to be disregarded because they aren't or were not 60x shooters in their peak. I'll agree to a point that it doesn't matter how well you actually can shoot FOR CERTAIN ASPECTS.... after a point it begins to become rather important. theory only can get you so far; at some point it needs to be put into practice...


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> I don't think any of the "regulars" are saying that you cannot take the information given with a grain of salt (truth of it is that you should; especially on here...)... they just don't want to be disregarded because they aren't or were not 60x shooters in their peak.


I believe that was the point of erdman's post as well as mine. I always have red flags pop up when someone "knows" exactly what the problem is. Especially when the person with the question gives very little info to work with. 



N7709K said:


> I'll agree to a point that it doesn't matter how well you actually can shoot FOR CERTAIN ASPECTS.... after a point it begins to become rather important. theory only can get you so far; at some point it needs to be put into practice...



I think that is where the "This is what helped me", stuff comes in. There should be less of the "Here's what you need to do." That is of course if our definition of "next level" is the same. You would need to be *that* shooter to offer *that* advice. If you averaged 50-55x games in your prime, you probably can't help the guy that is trying to figure out how to pick up the last few Vegas Xs.


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## Lazarus

Agree with the "grain of salt" comments. But that's not what erdman was really focusing on. His comment was focused on only taking advice from wolf44 and somebody else (and the likes.) It was pretty silly really. 

As I pointed out, nobody even knows Tiger Woods coaches name. Does that mean he doesn't give out quality info? That's laughable. And I'm certain he's never "done" what Tiger has done. Same applies to archery. There's a lot of folks out here that know a WHOLE lot more about shooting in general than some mid-level NFAA pro that does 95% of their shooting in one venue at one target. Just my .02

^ the above comment was not directed at any one individual and certainly not wolf44, great guy. I re-read it and wanted to clarify.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> I believe that was the point of erdman's post as well as mine. I always have red flags pop up when someone "knows" exactly what the problem is. Especially when the person with the question gives very little info to work with.


I'm really not knocking on erdman41 or anyone else, but we don't really know the issue of a person inquiring of a issue because he's telling his way and probably means something else or doing something he isn't telling us. Hey! They are "there" and we are "here." About like the person with the Group post. How do we know he doesn't have a "death grip" on his bow?


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## N7709K

cbrunson said:


> I think that is where the "This is what helped me", stuff comes in. There should be less of the "Here's what you need to do." That is of course if our definition of "next level" is the same. You would need to be *that* shooter to offer *that* advice. If you averaged 50-55x games in your prime, you probably can't help the guy that is trying to figure out how to pick up the last few Vegas Xs.



what do you define "next level" at? where do you set that bar?


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## SonnyThomas

You all don't know how tempted I R..... I just sent 7709 a JJ PM.


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> what do you define "next level" at? where do you set that bar?


Excellent question. I think if I remember correctly, that was one of the original speculated issues with the introduction of this sub-forum.

What qualifies someone to give advice? I don't necessarily have the right answer. I will say that arguing technique with someone on here that can not shoot anywhere near my average scores is of little interest though. Even arguing with someone at my level is pointless. The best we could hope for is to provide suggestions that helped us resolve some of our own issues without seeking to disprove others. That happens way too much I think.


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## N7709K

cbrunson said:


> Excellent question. I think if I remember correctly, that was one of the original speculated issues with the introduction of this sub-forum.
> 
> What qualifies someone to give advice? I don't necessarily have the right answer. I will say that arguing technique with someone on here that can not shoot anywhere near my average scores is of little interest though. Even arguing with someone at my level is pointless. The best we could hope for is to provide suggestions that helped us resolve some of our own issues without seeking to disprove others. That happens way too much I think.


so how do you quantify the "next level"? I think that is a sticking point for quite a few... 

I don't see the "next level" as fixed thing; its fluid and for each shooter they all have his or her own "next level"... if you shoot score level x you want to move to level y and see that as the next level, if you shoot level y you want to improve consistency... outside of score, or more opposed to score the quality of the shots and the percentage of good shots becomes of importance- more so than before. My "next level" is different than the majority on here, and your "next level" is different from mine, and so on. 

if discussing aspects of the game with those of a similar skillset is useless then you can only go so far before there wouldn't be any value is talking with other shooters.... best you can do is shoot clean scores and there are a bunch that do; I know a couple hours with the right group of shooters (not even the big names; just ones that know their stuff and how to play the game) will do more than months on here or even months with a coach (depending on what the issue being addressed is).


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## Bees

cbrunson said:


> Excellent question. I think if I remember correctly, that was one of the original speculated issues with the introduction of this sub-forum.
> 
> What qualifies someone to give advice? I don't necessarily have the right answer. I will say that arguing technique with someone on here that can not shoot anywhere near my average scores is of little interest though. Even arguing with someone at my level is pointless. The best we could hope for is to provide suggestions that helped us resolve some of our own issues without seeking to disprove others. That happens way too much I think.



Why do you have to argue at all?


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> Why do you have to argue at all?


I believe his point was it is pointless to argue and we would all be better served if everyone would just share their experience.


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## cbrunson

Bees said:


> Why do you have to argue at all?





EPLC said:


> I believe his point was it is pointless to argue and we would all be better served if everyone would just share their experience.


This, kinda ^^^^


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> if discussing aspects of the game with those of a similar skillset is useless then you can only go so far before there wouldn't be any value is talking with other shooters.... best you can do is shoot clean scores and there are a bunch that do; I know a couple hours with the right group of shooters (not even the big names; just ones that know their stuff and how to play the game) will do more than months on here or even months with a coach (depending on what the issue being addressed is).


Discussing things you've tried with peers is not useless. That's not what I meant. There is a huge difference between having a buddy that shoots with you pointing out something you are doing, and the average AT expert that may, or may not have ever shot a 300 NFAA game. I'm not saying no one here has good advice to offer, I'm only reinforcing the grain of salt statement.


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> I believe his point was it is pointless to argue and we would all be better served if everyone would just share their experience.



just to clarify-- so the consensus is 'what worked for me' trumps 'here is what to do'?


I do not see the majority of talk as argumentative- sure there are underhanded comments and jabs tossed in, but overall i see is as a little higher level discussion about the topic at hand. Arguing grows stagnant and doesn't really move along; its safe to say that the majority of discussions have moved along even if there is disagreement on approach.


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> just to clarify-- so the consensus is 'what worked for me' trumps 'here is what to do'?


Not to answer for ELPC, but no, I don't think it's a one vs the other thing. It's more of an example thing over simple instruction. Even if said advice giver couldn't produce the results himself, but could provide links to a successful person that has conquered the issue, it would be more valuable I believe. Otherwise, it's just "Do this, because I know it works. I've never done it, but I know it works." instruction.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> just to clarify-- so the consensus is 'what worked for me' trumps 'here is what to do'?


While I'm not foolish enough to believe we'll ever have a consensus on this... for me personally the "what worked for me" works for me. How would you feel if someone at my skill level started hounding you at your skill level about technique? But back on topic: I started this thread because of the difficulties I've experienced with short range training. That hasn't changed, but due to some of the input here I think I may know why. One of the things that you have suggested many times is that in order to be successful you should develop ONE shot and then build around that. I'm finding that this is a major hurdle for me... there are others. 

Example: I shot my league last night and was not happy with my execution. I really struggled with my hold which was a disappointment because I had been making some progress in this area. This morning I went down to the dungeon to do some blank/blind baling. At 4 yards I was really focusing well and my hold felt as solid as it ever has. I mean this bow wasn't moving. During the session I shot some with my eyes open and some with them closed. I could see a difference between the two. No matter how hard I tried to repeat the feeling I was getting with my eyes closed... with them open I could not. I also could not duplicate with my eyes closed what I felt with them open. After about an hour or so of this I wanted to set my sight for a new tape. I moved my burlap bag out of the way and moved back to 8 yards which is where I set my baseline. Totally different feel, movement that wasn't there at 4 yards was very apparent at 8 yards.


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## stoz

EPLC said:


> While I'm not foolish enough to believe we'll ever have a consensus on this... for me personally the "what worked for me" works for me. How would you feel if someone at my skill level started hounding you at your skill level about technique? But back on topic: I started this thread because of the difficulties I've experienced with short range training. That hasn't changed, but due to some of the input here I think I may know why. One of the things that you have suggested many times is that in order to be successful you should develop ONE shot and then build around that. I'm finding that this is a major hurdle for me... there are others.
> 
> Example: I shot my league last night and was not happy with my execution. I really struggled with my hold which was a disappointment because I had been making some progress in this area. This morning I went down to the dungeon to do some blank/blind baling. At 4 yards I was really focusing well and my hold felt as solid as it ever has. I mean this bow wasn't moving. During the session I shot some with my eyes open and some with them closed. I could see a difference between the two. No matter how hard I tried to repeat the feeling I was getting with my eyes closed... with them open I could not. I also could not duplicate with my eyes closed what I felt with them open. After about an hour or so of this I wanted to set my sight for a new tape. I moved my burlap bag out of the way and moved back to 8 yards whiach is where I set my baseline. Totally different feel, movement that wasn't there at 4 yards was very apparent at 8 yards.


Glad you got back to the subject. Was hoping to read something relative instead of who is or isn't qualified to give advice. If you guys haven't figured this out yet there is only certain people on here I even read advice from. I know their usernames and I read what they post. But I guess I know from being here for awhile.


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## ron w

that "grain of salt" issue, directly addresses the question, "what makes someone qualified to give advice". we give it and we all have to realize that many of us aren't really "qualified by any sense of measurement" to give the advise we do. that doesn't necessarily make the advise meaningless, or wrong (although sometimes it is), so there's no reason to get all argumentive about it, when one guy is just trying to help another.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> *Totally different feel, movement* that wasn't there at 4 yards was very apparent at 8 yards.


This is not advice, just an observation. The bolded is where the disconnect is at, IMHO. You're letting the feel be driven based on what you're seeing. That movement you're seeing is just perceived movement. The float is always going to look amazing at 4yds compared to 8yds.

I couldn't tell you how to fix this since we're all mentally wired a different way, but I can tell you from my own experience that once I figured out how to let that go (by lots of 1 arrow shooting at 4-6yds on a standard vegas spot), my shooting has been a lot better and a heck of a lot less stressful. I view the short range 1 arrow shooting as therapy time when I mentally get out of sorts.


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## ride394

Ned250 said:


> This is not advice, just an observation. The bolded is where the disconnect is at, IMHO. You're letting the feel be driven based on what you're seeing. That movement you're seeing is just perceived movement. The float is always going to look amazing at 4yds compared to 8yds.
> 
> I couldn't tell you how to fix this since we're all mentally wired a different way, but I can tell you from my own experience that once I figured out how to let that go (by lots of 1 arrow shooting at 4-6yds on a standard vegas spot), my shooting has been a lot better and a heck of a lot less stressful. I view the short range 1 arrow shooting as therapy time when I mentally get out of sorts.


And to tag onto this, I also use scaled target when shooting at 5 yards so it's more accurate to what I'll see when I move back.


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## ILOVE3D

ride394 said:


> And to tag onto this, I also use scaled target when shooting at 5 yards so it's more accurate to what I'll see when I move back.


I would think that although it may be more accurate as to what you will see, it makes sense to me that your scores will not reflect truly what you would have scored because your shaft diameter is also 4 times larger on the scaled down target at 5 yards than the same arrow at 20 yards thus still giving one a false indicator if one is keeping score. Kind of like shooting arrows with a 1 1/4" diameter at 20 yards, pretty easy to cut the 10 line


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## ride394

ILOVE3D said:


> I would think that although it may be more accurate as to what you will see, it makes sense to me that your scores will not reflect truly what you would have scored because your shaft diameter is also 4 times larger on the scaled down target at 5 yards than the same arrow at 20 yards thus still giving one a false indicator if one is keeping score. Kind of like shooting arrows with a 1 1/4" diameter at 20 yards, pretty easy to cut the 10 line


Definitely. I wasn't talking so much about scoring on the scales target as much as watching my float.


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## EPLC

Ned250 said:


> This is not advice, just an observation. The bolded is where the disconnect is at, IMHO. You're letting the feel be driven based on what you're seeing. That movement you're seeing is just perceived movement. The float is always going to look amazing at 4yds compared to 8yds.
> 
> I couldn't tell you how to fix this since we're all mentally wired a different way, but I can tell you from my own experience that once I figured out how to let that go (by lots of 1 arrow shooting at 4-6yds on a standard vegas spot), my shooting has been a lot better and a heck of a lot less stressful. I view the short range 1 arrow shooting as therapy time when I mentally get out of sorts.


I agree in your assessment of my disconnect being "Totally different feel, movement..." but I do not believe it was just perception of movement. The movement was different. At 4 yards the bow was perfectly still and stayed that way throughout the shot process but there was no target. When I went to 8 yards there was a target and the movement started. I am quite sure of this. What I didn't elaborate on was that I did some work to correct this and did have some success. The improvement came by opening up my stance from the neutral stance that is my normal. I also was using my T.R.U. Ball ST-360 instead of my Sweet Spot as I thought a change might get me out of my rut. Today I took a ride up to a MA archery shop and did about an hour at 20 yards. With the more open stance the movement was much improved and while I didn't score I had no trouble finding center on the Vegas face. As mentioned the movement was very good, almost as good as yesterday on the blank bale... Now my plan is to refine my ST-360 release on the bale.


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## N7709K

do you have a hinge without a safety? Do you have a brass or SS hinge? to a degree more importantly, what is a release that you have NEVER felt/shot/played with?

a shot is a shot is a shot; if you learn to shoot one shot, it shouldn't really matter the distance... same goes for float- float is float; your dot is gonna move the same distance, it just appears as more or less depending on what it is placed on top of... I think we can all agree on those two aspects.

Is your main focus on shooting a good shot or is the focus on holding the dot in the middle? are you letting how the dot is moving dictate how you run your shot process?

Have you played with a very very small dot; small enough that it just covers inner 10- small enough that you KNOW it will never sit still and that you have to work with it moving around? do you heal your targets?


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> do you have a hinge without a safety? Do you have a brass or SS hinge? to a degree more importantly, what is a release that you have NEVER felt/shot/played with?


I have an old T.R.U. Ball Spike that I've only used a few times. Been there done that with the non-safety hinge releases. I shoot them well for a while and then my subconscious finds the edge of the sear and either I freeze or start timing the shot. I settled on the Sweet Spot II because I can set it slow and it stays slow due to the floating head. That said, I do think part of my issues are release related as I'm so familiar with the SP-II that I'm somehow timing it. This is why I recently switched to the thumb release. I shot yesterday and again today and my shot was much improved. I also have opened my stance and I believe that is helping as well. 



N7709K said:


> ...a shot is a shot is a shot; if you learn to shoot one shot, it shouldn't really matter the distance... same goes for float- float is float; your dot is gonna move the same distance, it just appears as more or less depending on what it is placed on top of... I think we can all agree on those two aspects.


Apparently I have not mastered the " ...a shot is a shot is a shot", so the other two aspects change as my shot changes. I'm not talking big variances, just subtle things in my actual execution. My index finger seems to be the guilty party as it is controlling the timing of the release execution. I actually had a cleaner release in my second tear of shooting LH as my left release hand wasn't smart enough to mess things up then. Due to my recent learning's on here about this I'm working to develop a more consistent "shot". Because I can repeat the execution easier with the thumb release (relatively speaking) I "should" be able to improve on this going forward. Of course this assumes I don't start punching the thumb button which has been an issue in the past. 



N7709K said:


> Is your main focus on shooting a good shot or is the focus on holding the dot in the middle? are you letting how the dot is moving dictate how you run your shot process?


I'm trying to focus on making a good shot, but I'm not really sure that the creepy crawlers in my head are truly allowing that to happen. The closest I can come with certainty is my shot process. When I stick to it I shoot better. 



N7709K said:


> Have you played with a very very small dot; small enough that it just covers inner 10- small enough that you KNOW it will never sit still and that you have to work with it moving around? do you heal your targets?


You name it I've tried it; small, medium and large dots, fiber optics, circles. Movement has always been an issue with me... I can keep it in the gold for the most part and sometimes smaller "IF" I don't focus on it. For me it has to happen, not make it happen. Not sure what "healing targets" is?


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## Rick!

EPLC said:


> . Not sure what "healing targets" is?


Healing a target, like on a Vegas face, is done to keep from being distracted by a hole not near the middle, You take the target pin out, lift up the face and push the paper back into the hole, effectively removing the black spot not near the X or where the rest of your shots hit.


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## N7709K

Have you shot scott hinges? Longhorn? Blackhole? Have you played with any brass truballs? You're shooting careful. By that I mean you are trying to place the arrow in the middle and not letting it find its own way there when the process is correct. You've shot the same release for a while, which is good (changing release every couple weeks isn't a good thing, but you should change things up every now and then so as to not too heavily ingrain how to shoot one release), but you have learned how to make that release work with your system... I think part of what is stalling out the process is trying to change over to a technically correct approach but with the ingrained release method being one of placing arrows. With this the easiest way to reset things is go to a release you have never touched and start the entire process clean; learn how to shoot the new shot with a new release. 

Drop my a PM if you are interested in changing to a different release and trying that route- i have a box of them that aren't being used and I can send one or two along....

Have you worked or done any training in regards to release hand and release side off the bow? on a string? etc?

What is your approach to the shot? what are you thinking about when you put your dot in the middle? For my shooting i've found settling on a single aspect of follow through to be the most effective. I think about where the release hand will end up and how it feels when it ends up there. I watch my dot do its thing in the middle but focus on working the back half correctly.

What has to happen? having the dot in the middle?


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## Ned250

N7709K said:


> You're shooting careful. By that I mean you are trying to place the arrow in the middle and not letting it find its own way there when the process is correct.


So damn true.


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## Bees

If EPLC would just soften up his release hand, and let his subconscious mind do whatever it wants to do with that hand, who knows what great things might happen.. hard release hand will kill accuracy... :noidea:


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> You're shooting careful. By that I mean you are trying to place the arrow in the middle and not letting it find its own way there when the process is correct.


Me thinks you have hit the nail on the head... This may have passed by me many times in the past, but for whatever reason these words have sunk in... Having a process is only helpful if you trust it until the arrow hits... When I'm shooting at the top of my game I'm doing this... but not understanding what it is I'm doing. I just know the arrow will find its mark. And you are absolutely correct about the range not mattering.

I had two competitions this weekend, one last night and another this morning. Last night I couldn't hit the side of the building, today I shot an NFAA 300 round and shot a 300 37X. I read your post this morning before I left for the shoot. I wasn't real sharp as my X count was about 10 under my average but I really tried to just trust the process to conclusion and let the arrow find its mark. I'll have to really work at this because my issues in this area are very deeply engrained. Thanks Jacob!


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Have you shot scott hinges? Longhorn? Blackhole? Have you played with any brass truballs?


I've tried many releases with basically the same result after any period of time. (see below) The Scott Longhorn was my hinge release of choice before the Sweet Spot II. 



N7709K said:


> You're shooting careful. By that I mean you are trying to place the arrow in the middle and not letting it find its own way there when the process is correct.


Spot on with this comment! Therefore I do not believe this is a release issue. I can make this mistake (and have done so) regardless of the release. A new release can mask the issue for a period of time (sometimes short) but it always rears its ugly head once I get used to the thing. 



N7709K said:


> You've shot the same release for a while, which is good (changing release every couple weeks isn't a good thing, but you should change things up every now and then so as to not too heavily ingrain how to shoot one release), but you have learned how to make that release work with your system... I think part of what is stalling out the process is trying to change over to a technically correct approach but with the ingrained release method being one of placing arrows. With this the easiest way to reset things is go to a release you have never touched and start the entire process clean; learn how to shoot the new shot with a new release.


I'll keep an open mind on this but my recent experience going to my thumb button was a bust. It only took me two days for that idea to blow up. I shot the SSII today. 



N7709K said:


> Drop my a PM if you are interested in changing to a different release and trying that route- i have a box of them that aren't being used and I can send one or two along....


I appreciate the offer... I'll PM you...



N7709K said:


> Have you worked or done any training in regards to release hand and release side off the bow? on a string? etc?


I have a Morin Trainer that George Ryals gave me just prior to my switching to Lefty. I use it off an on...




N7709K said:


> What is your approach to the shot? what are you thinking about when you put your dot in the middle? For my shooting i've found settling on a single aspect of follow through to be the most effective. I think about where the release hand will end up and how it feels when it ends up there. I watch my dot do its thing in the middle but focus on working the back half correctly.


Draw
Anchor and Align
Center the Peep
Acquire the X
Safety Off & Committ
Pull




N7709K said:


> What has to happen? having the dot in the middle?


Not sure how to answer this one as I am conflicted.


----------



## N7709K

So scotts are out... for now... what is a release that you have never touched?

The changing of releases is pseudo in part to that it "masks" the symptoms for the time being. In the period directly after changing releases the subconscious does not know how to cheat this particular release yet as it is still learning how to shoot. It is in this portion where you be diligent and devote the effort to the changes in your shot process- you reset the entire system and learn the new shot on a new release so there is not the temptation to cheat the release. The holdup that is slowing the progression of learning a new shot is the current shot that is written into the subconscious; to get over the issues you are fighting you need to rewrite that shot. Going to a completely new release that you have no experience with takes the control away from the subconscious; this technique works very well of a majority of mental issues and "other" issues as well.

have you used it had hand level and watched how the movement of the release hand fires the release? how relaxing the index changes the movement, how relaxing the entire hand and letting it stretch, etc? 

Not the steps in the process... but what do you think about when you are at full draw?


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## eagleman55

if you practice blind bale shooting at close range, your subconscious will learn how to execute the shoot by itself. when you go back to regular shooting, let the subconscious shoot the shot. if your conscious mind takes over, you get a version of stress that makes it hard to overcome. by blind bale shooting, I mean get close ( 3 to 5 yds.) with no target on the backstop. close your eyes, draw, and then shoot the shot. without the visual input overcrowding your mind, you will feel every muscle in your body that it takes to shoot the shot. the shot will go off by itself. after the good shot, say out loud to yourself "that is how I shoot". this helps the subconscious to reinforce what you are doing. shoot 25 good shoots in the morning and 25 good shots in the evening. after one week you will be amazed at how well you execute the shot. I forgot to ask so I will assume you execute with back tension. you can use back tension to execute with any release, by squeezing you scapula's together and just waiting for it to go off. try to squeeze them together like if you are holding a walnut between the. after go back to 10 yds. and repeat for one week. after that, place a 6 inch paper plate on the backstop and shoot into that for one week. then go back to 15 yds an shoot at a 4 in paper plate. when you get to 20 yds. shoot the 4 in for a week and then go to a regular size. if at any time up to that you get shot panic again, stop go forward 5 yds and shoot blind again. target panic comes from your conscious mind wanting to take over rather than your subconscious mind shooting the shot.

Doug


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## EPLC

I have a purchase pending on a TRU Ball BT Gold 3 finger. I've never had one of these but the feel should be very similar to my Sweet Spot II. Made up my new shot process card... with reminders on back side.


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## ron w

well and good, except it has to be consciously over viewed, so that movement doesn't get out of control to the point that not deliberately stopping a poorly running set up causes a miss, by allowing the shot to continue and be forced. that is why we need to do "let down drills. they are not for the purpose of conditioning our process to be "ok" with letting down on a shot,.... but rather,.... to train our shot process to not produce poorly running set ups by refusing to let them run on, so eventually, we don't have to interrupt our shot process. those interruptions detract from building the confidence that produces consistently good running shots. it's a vicious circle.....you don't want to interrupt the shot, but you need to interrupt the shot to teach to not give you reasons to interrupt it. the drills are what teach that, not the let downs during your actual shooting, so the drills need to be done, if you want to get to that point.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> So scotts are out... for now... what is a release that you have never touched?
> 
> The changing of releases is pseudo in part to that it "masks" the symptoms for the time being. In the period directly after changing releases the subconscious does not know how to cheat this particular release yet as it is still learning how to shoot. It is in this portion where you be diligent and devote the effort to the changes in your shot process- you reset the entire system and learn the new shot on a new release so there is not the temptation to cheat the release. The holdup that is slowing the progression of learning a new shot is the current shot that is written into the subconscious; to get over the issues you are fighting you need to rewrite that shot. Going to a completely new release that you have no experience with takes the control away from the subconscious; this technique works very well of a majority of mental issues and "other" issues as well.
> 
> have you used it had hand level and watched how the movement of the release hand fires the release? how relaxing the index changes the movement, how relaxing the entire hand and letting it stretch, etc?
> 
> Not the steps in the process... but what do you think about when you are at full draw?


When I originally answered this I wasn't thinking about my switch to lefty. The truth is I did all of my release experimentation while shooting right handed. I found the Sweet Spot II before I switched to lefty and since switching I really never have shot anything else, with the exception of my ST-360, which has been tried only a few times for very short periods. Since I haven't really ever shot a non-safety hinge left handed I assume that nothing would be ruled out.


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## SonnyThomas

Not really sure where to put this, will give a write up later in Equipment here or General Discussion.

Just shot my best Vegas face. I promised I'd give this "item" the best I could give. So I had in me to do just that, shoot my best. Cold, 32 degrees, no breeze thankfully. Bows liked to froze my bow hand. If the shot wasn't there I backed off, let down and this was rough, real rough. I used both my Pearsons, the MarXman with 37 1/2"ata and 280 fps or so and MX2 with 40 1/4" ata and 270 fps or so. Used the same arrows for both, 322 grs. with 6.04% FOC. Both bows set to 55 pounds. The MarXman, 28 1/2" draw. The MX2, 28 1/4" draw.

I first made sure both were shooting dead on, 20 yards, shooting about 10 shots with each. The MX2 with torque indicator and MarXman with no torque indicator. Knew I was sighted in I put up a new target. Now, don't you guys go fainting.... I then shot at least 40 shots total, at least 20 shots with each bow. My first shot on the new target was with my MX2 and it went high for a 9. One shot with my MarXman went left for 9 at 4:00. As my usual I shot 1 and 2 shots at a time.

If only 40 shots that would be 398/400. I didn't count Xs, but believe I got my fair share of them. I can't say the "item" helped me, but can say it wasn't detrimental to my shooting. Okay, I told the man I'd give it my best and my best did surprise me. Again, if the shot wasn't there I backed off, let down.

My poor old target bale has just about had it. The only thing keeping the arrows going through the bale is a 1/2" thick conveyor belt in back.


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## dunmoab

Are you still making stabilzers? Can you message me your number? I lost it and I need to set up a kid from our club.

Thanks...Tom


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