# Gillo Ghost Review/Test (7.5GPP VS 10.0GPP)



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*"The Contenders":*










*The Bow:* 19" Gillo Ghost Riser w/ 40#/Short Gillo (spec'ed) Ghost Limbs

60" AMO Length set at 41# @ 28" Holding 40#s OTF's at a 27 1/2" Length of Draw.

*The "Light" Arrow:* Full Length .700 Spine GT Ultralight measuring 30 3/8ths" from center of nock too EOC...3 X 4" Feathers...80gr Glue-in Points.

Total Arrow Weight: 300grs/7.5GPP

*The "Heavy" Arrow:* .600 Spine Beman MFX Classics cut to 29"s from center of nock too EOC...3 X 5" Feathers...w/ Blow Can White Capping...125gr Screw-in Points in 16gr Alum. H.I.T. type Inserts.

Total Arrow Weight: 400grs/10.0GPP

and here's the results as shot over a Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph earlier today...






*My Impressions:*

Besides being extremely well mannered at-the-shot with exceptional handling qualities with the Gillo Ghost proving itself to me to be an...."Easy To Shoot Well"....60" Bow?...I'm amazed that it's capable of putting out these sort of numbers from what is a new ILF Rig priced in the $650-$700 range complete...especially in a world where one can be found paying that sort of price for a riser OR a set of limbs alone.

*My Conclusion:*

I also find it very interesting that while the heavier Beman arrows represented a 25% increase in arrow weight?...that the cost was only a 15% decrease in arrow velocities off the Gillo Ghost and I might add that I feel those to be "Stellar Arrow Speeds" off what is only a 60"/40# Bow.

Thank you for looking, watching and reading...Hope you enjoyed & L8R, Bill.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Wow! Never would have thought that you would lose over 25 fps with 100 grain heavier arrows. Typical longbow might lose 10 fps maybe 15 fps. But to be fair a Hill style bow would probably hit about 165 fps @ 10 gpp. to begin with.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Also figured out the KE and if anything the lighter arrow has a tiny edge over the heavier arrows. Momentum might be another thing.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Todd the archer said:


> Wow! Never would have thought that you would lose over 25 fps with 100 grain heavier arrows.


Yep...I'll admit...I was shocked too...after seeing 200+FPS out of the 300gr arrows I figured the 400gr arrows would be in the 180fps range...but when I did the math?...172FPS didn't seem so bad...especially from 27 1/2"s of draw off 40#s worth of bow.




Todd the archer said:


> Typical longbow might lose 10 fps maybe 15 fps.


Really?...cause I shot my 56"/46# Thunder Child across the chrono too this mornings and?...

With 445gr axis arrows (for 10GPP) I got 165FPS

Withe 300gr arrows (and I only dared shot 3 of them) at 6.7GPP I got 196FPS




Todd the archer said:


> But to be fair a Hill style bow would probably hit about 165 fps @ 10 gpp. to begin with.


yeah...but at what poundage?....60#s? LOL!


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

boy jinks your heavy arrow is my light arrow from a 40 #bow. bow speed is consistent


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

My experience with longbows was mostly in the past now days mostly recurves and asiatic style bows. But when I was shooting longbows they were all 60 plus pounds. I have to see if I can dig up my old notes for reference. 

Still goes to show your not losing much efficiency with lighter arrows. Also the Thunderchild is pretty radical as far as longbows go.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Todd the archer said:


> Wow! Never would have thought that you would lose over 25 fps with 100 grain heavier arrows. Typical longbow might lose 10 fps maybe 15 fps. But to be fair a Hill style bow would probably hit about 165 fps @ 10 gpp. to begin with.


It's really very interesting.

It goes to show that there is theory, and then there is what really happens. Sometimes one does not relate to the other, exactly.

Generally speaking, a bow becomes less efficient with lighter arrows. Generally speaking, I think that's still true. However, this case brings up two things.

First, if the bow is designed to go 'fast', in the sense of being able to drive light arrows, it doesn't actually suffer that much going from moderately heavy to moderately light. I'd venture to guess that this has something to do with it, and might have something to relate to the designer's experience working in long distance field shooting, or whatever you'd call the area of his legendary status. Some limbs are designed to work down to even 5 gpp, and while I don't want Jinks to void his warranty, I'd be interested to see if the bow could hold similar efficiency and lack of vibration with even lower arrow weight.

The Hill style longbows, in contrast, have a lot of moving mass, are designed primarily with heavy weight in mind, and as such, lose a lot of efficiency as arrow weight drops in this range, but also gain it back when arrow weight goes up. Half empty, half full, however you want to call it.

Secondly, as the bow/arrow system is complicated, there are always contributing factors outside of the generalities we tend to consider. 

If we wanted to put a single name on it, we would call it tune, though I think it goes beyond what we generally consider 'tuned' or 'out of tune'.

I once tested a moderately heavy wood arrow versus a less heavy aluminum arrow, with my Tomahawk longbow. The aluminum arrow went faster, and left more hand shock in the bow. I opted to designate wood arrows for it, because the feel of the shot with the aluminum arrows was not enjoyable. However, the aluminum arrows were actually more efficient. I don't mean to imply that you can draw any conclusions about the efficiency of arrow materials, just that things aren't always exactly as we might assume based on general rules. They usually aren't WAY different, because physics works, if you know _all_ the information, and what to do with it. But, most often, we don't, and the little things can trump the big things when the big things aren't that significant.

I was playing around with silencers and serving one day. Tried removing some mass by trimming the silencers. Put it back with new silencers. Added a second layer of serving to make the string fatter for my fingers. Chrono'd before and after all changes. Didn't make a darn difference. Removed the second serving, got a nicer glove. Same.

It could very well be the case that I could add a little mass on the arrow and not lose a significant amount of arrow speed. Maybe. But it shoots well, and I'd rather not screw it up for the moment


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Are the arrow weights listed calculated or measured (scale)? Generally until arrow weight reaches an unrealistically high point (upwards of 1500 grains) both momentum and kinetic energy should increase as arrow weight increases.

Using your listed values for arrow weight and taking the average for each string of three velocity readings brings up a question, why is the momentum higher for the heavier arrow but the kinetic energy is lower?

300 grain arrows:
Avg. velocity = 200.333 ft/sec
K.E. = 26.728 ft*lbs
Momentum = 0.2668 (slug*ft)/sec

400 grain arrows:
Avg. velocity = 171.666 ft/sec
K.E. = *26.169 ft*lbs*
Momentum = 0.3049 (slug*ft)/sec


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

The Chrono is the same to the archer as the scale is to a bass fisherman ......... Meaning boy do they wreck what you thought was going on 

Great honest video Jinks and it really makes me appreciate my CH


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I assumed he used his scale.

Jinks, did you use your scale?

Any chance you've got a 200 gn and an 800 gn arrow laying around?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Are the arrow weights listed calculated or measured (scale)? Generally until arrow weight reaches an unrealistically high point (upwards of 1500 grains) both momentum and kinetic energy should increase as arrow weight increases.
> 
> Using your listed values for arrow weight and taking the average for each string of three velocity readings brings up a question, why is the momentum higher for the heavier arrow but the kinetic energy is lower?
> 
> ...





BarneySlayer said:


> I assumed he used his scale.
> 
> Jinks, did you use your scale?
> 
> Any chance you've got a 200 gn and an 800 gn arrow laying around?


This is going to sting and I'm officially turning in my "Review License" cause I'm simply not fit.

So ready?..."No"...I didn't use my scale...(until 5 minutes ago due to these questions and EK's math)...I went by memory of what I thought I remembered my arrows weighing...

Because I recalled my 400gr arrows as being 415grs (scaled)...but that was back when they had 145gr Pts in them...which I swapped out for 100gr points....just before I changed those for 125gr points about a week ago...so my 400gr arrows?...are really (I wanna say 395 so bad right now) but actually scaled 389-390grs minutes ago.

But that wasn't the big memory glitch I suffered here...the BIG memory glitch was thinking my Ultralights weighed 300grs...and they actually did back when I had 100gr Screw-ins that I swapped out for 80gr Glue-ins where minutes ago on the scale they weighed...(man..really don't want to reveal this but....)....

My 300gr arrows actually scaled 269-270grs.

My only excuse here is I did this today to keep my mind off the fact that our youngest daughter secretly moved out last night...on her 18th Birthday...I was so distraught I couldn't even work today and I decided to do this to get and keep my mind off of that little traumatic event.

Please keep the lashes down to under 100...thank you, Bill.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Don't worry about it Bill, honest mistake. Good luck on the home front.

270 grain arrows:
Avg. velocity = 200.333 ft/sec
K.E. = 24.037 ft*lbs
Momentum = 0.2399 (slug*ft)/sec

390 grain arrows:
Avg. velocity = 171.666 ft/sec
K.E. = 25.494 ft*lbs
Momentum = 0.2970 (slug*ft)/sec

Don't give up on the reviews, I know I enjoy reading them.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx, don't worry about it. I can tell you that scientist make mistakes all the time. The key, though, is to continuously challenge your results, and your measuring system. Continuously ask whether you are measuring what you think you are. The more you challenge, the more problems you find and eliminate, and the better your results and conclusions. Also being open with errors when they occur is essential to build trust. I have made mistakes in my testing, or my posts of test results, and have posted corrections whenever I find them. I had a doozy back in graduate school where I made an error in some sophisticated calculations because I defined zero as too big of a number (yes, some numerical calculations will blow up if you define zero as zero). I discovered the error about a month later and had to give my research adviser the never mind speech. He was already using my results. My research adviser was the 2013 Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry. You hate to embarrass a guy like that with bad results.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Don't worry about it Bill, honest mistake. Good luck on the home front.
> 
> 270 grain arrows:
> Avg. velocity = 200.333 ft/sec
> ...





Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, don't worry about it. I can tell you that scientist make mistakes all the time. The key, though, is to continuously challenge your results, and your measuring system. Continuously ask whether you are measuring what you think you are. The more you challenge, the more problems you find and eliminate, and the better your results and conclusions. Also being open with errors when they occur is essential to build trust. I have made mistakes in my testing, or my posts of test results, and have posted corrections whenever I find them. I had a dusy back in graduate school where I made an error in some sophisticated calculations because I defined zero as too big of a number (yes, some numerical calculations will blow up if you define zero as zero). I discovered the error about a month later and had to give my research adviser the never mind speech. He was already using my results. My research adviser was the 2013 Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry. You hate to embarrass a guy like that with bad results.


Thanks Guys...what a butthead...I left work within a 1/2 hour of getting there cause my head was up my butt...then screwed up at home here.....what was I thinking?:embara:

appreciate the forgiveness...thanks.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> Don't worry about it Bill, honest mistake. Good luck on the home front.
> 
> 270 grain arrows:
> Avg. velocity = 200.333 ft/sec
> ...


That makes more sense, removes the exception and so is less remarkable, but I'm still wondering what it might look at with 6 gpp, whether the 'target limb' pedigree would keep the KE from crashing.

Then again, I don't really know what target limbs actually do in the 5-6 gpp range. Maybe I'm just curious. But, Jinks, don't blow your bow up for my sake. Keep it in the yellow zone


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hoping things are good with the daughter Bill


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Looks like some good realistic numbers. 

I've chronoed tons of bows. Everything from aggressive recurves to string follow longbows. I've shot some real burners and some that were shockingly slow. I haven't used the chrono to justify buying or selling a bow but it does make it interesting and educational. 

I've found most bows tend to be fairly linear in the rate of acceleration/deceleration over the years. When you get on the light end and heavy end the rate changes slightly. For example, with most bows I've chronoed from 8-11 gpp the change from one grain class ( 8 to 9, 9 to 10, etc) to another, normally is about 10- 11 fps. This applies to recurves and longbows with draw weights ranging from 32 - 78 pounds. Below 8 gpp, and especially closer to 5 gpp it is usually a touch less... maybe 7-10 fps. I would account this to the decrease in efficiency as the arrow weight decreases. On the flip side regarding heavy arrows I've found a similar trend. When I've tested over 11 gpp the expected velocity would be higher, the losses slightly less, as efficiency increases... again this applies to recurves and longbows. 

I also find that draw weight is less of a factor than people credit. I have owned several bows from the same bowyer, same model, different draw weights and when set up to all be at the same grain class will all shoot within a fps or two of each other. I've never found a 50# bow that will shoot even a modest amount faster than a 10 pound lighter equivalent. 

So, Jinks went from 6.75 gpp to 9.5 gpp ( almost 3 full gpp classes) and saw a change of 29 fps. Pretty close to what I've seen and would predict. If I had to guess on Jink's bow at 5 gpp I'd say 215 (+/- 3 fps). If he tried a 500 grain arrow (12.5 gpp) I'd guess it would be right around 153-154.

There are some bows that don't follow these trends but these tend to be more radical designs on the ends of the spectrum. I'm playing with one now that shines as arrow weight increases. Based on most people's theories it should slow down more than a longbow as arrow weight goes up (it's a recurve) but from 8 gpp to 12.5 gpp I only lose 25 fps or so. I wouldn't have guessed that but the chrono can be a great learning tool. It doesn't make the bow better but it helps me add pieces to the puzzle when I'm choosing what to shoot.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Also, my numbers arefrom testing bows in the average draw length range of 27-29". On either end of the spectrum I would guess the changes in velocity as arrow weight changes would be different. I would also expect bow length would become a larger factor as the bows would either be under worked or over stressed on either end of the extreme. 

I've tried some testing at much shorter and longed draw lengths but it's hard to hold consistency so I quit trying because the results weren't meaningful.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks Str8! :thumbs_up  

Through it all?...one thing I'm very pleased about that this chronograph has shown me is...

It's made apparent that my efforts regarding "consistent form" have seemed to pay off by way of rather consistent arrow velocities...I surprised myself holding the numbers as close as I did....effortlessly.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

On average all bows lose 3 fps every 10 gr of arrow added..so actually dead on where it should be..bow is really quiet to


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> There are some bows that don't follow these trends but these tend to be more radical designs on the ends of the spectrum. I'm playing with one now that shines as arrow weight increases. Based on most people's theories it should slow down more than a longbow as arrow weight goes up (it's a recurve) but from 8 gpp to 12.5 gpp I only lose 25 fps or so. I wouldn't have guessed that but the chrono can be a great learning tool. It doesn't make the bow better but it helps me add pieces to the puzzle when I'm choosing what to shoot.


Str8 do you attribute this to the weight of the limbs?
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Hoping things are good with the daughter Bill


Thanks Joe...it was an extremely painful and disheartening event for the wife and I...which I guess means I should cheer myself up with a new set of 7.5's for the DAS ELite cause this way the wife could spend more time with the grandkids! LOL!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Thanks Str8! :thumbs_up
> 
> Through it all?...one thing I'm very pleased about that this chronograph has shown me is...
> 
> It's made apparent that my efforts regarding "consistent form" have seemed to pay off by way of rather consistent arrow velocities...I surprised myself holding the numbers as close as I did....effortlessly.


Jinx, I have used a chrono for practice. It is a good tool to ensure that you have consistency. I would not use it all the time because it becomes part of the sight picture. But once in awhile is good.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

DDShooter,

I'm not sure if it's the weight of the limbs. It's a one piece bow which makes it hard to try separating limb vs riser weight. The limbs are just good ol' fiberglass, no carbon so I'd expect the physical weight of them is average. 

I think it's likely a bow that starts off with very good efficiency at lighter arrows and only gets better with heavy arrows.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Str8 Shooter said:


> I think it's likely a bow that starts off with very good efficiency at lighter arrows and only gets better with heavy arrows.


Would that be true with all bows?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, I have used a chrono for practice. It is a good tool to ensure that you have consistency. I would not use it all the time because it becomes part of the sight picture. But once in awhile is good.


Thanks Hank and yeah....I'm not using it for a practice tool...matter fact the only other arrows that I've shot across it (besides what's been published here in videos) has been about a dozen shots with a variety of arrow weights off the Thunder Child...I just surprised myself staying within 3FPS on all tests...2FPS on a few...and how many times I got to see "Duplicates"...that made me happy. 

Tonight I was left in somewhat of an arrow dilemma though as I think I'm lucky I didn't blow anything up or do any damage by relying on "my memory" alone for arrow weights...especially considering I accidentally exposed both Robertfishes and the Ghost limbs to multiple shots of 270gr arrows....heck...they were the same arrows I shot off the DAS Elite w/ Roberts limbs at a 3D a couple weekends back...so do the math?...270gr/42#s equaled a 6.43GPP rig I've been shooting for some time now...Yikes! :embara:

So this evening?...I needed to sift through my collection and ultimately decided to work with my old 25/50 .650 spine CT Cheetahs as they are super light at 5.3GPI and I had cut them down too 28 1/4" (years ago) running heavy points for EFOC off my old longbows and while I'm on that note?...I must say this...

_"I found those 270gr .700 spine Ultralights packed up together real nice when I did everything perfect execution wise (and fast of course but...) they were very twitchy and not very forgiving at all with those 80gr glue-in points."_

after trying 175gr screw-ins in the Cheetahs (which showed weak) I dropped down too 145gr screw-ins and Bam!...The Gillo Ghost really liked these! 










and yes...I weighed them...and yes...on a scale this time! LOL!

Total Arrow Weight: 335gr/7.976GPP 

Flight was great...EXTREMELY FORGIVING...and made for a whisper quiet bow.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Thanks Hank and yeah....I'm not using it for a practice tool...matter fact the only other arrows that I've shot across it (besides what's been published here in videos) has been about a dozen shots with a variety of arrow weights off the Thunder Child...I just surprised myself staying within 3FPS on all tests...2FPS on a few...and how many times I got to see "Duplicates"...that made me happy.
> 
> Tonight I was left in somewhat of an arrow dilemma though as I think I'm lucky I didn't blow anything up or do any damage by relying on "my memory" alone for arrow weights...especially considering I accidentally exposed both Robertfishes and the Ghost limbs to multiple shots of 270gr arrows....heck...they were the same arrows I shot off the DAS Elite w/ Roberts limbs at a 3D a couple weekends back...so do the math?...270gr/42#s equaled a 6.43GPP rig I've been shooting for some time now...Yikes! :embara:
> 
> ...


Sounds like you've found your ticket!


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

BarneySlayer, 
Not always. Some designs have great energy storage but do not have great efficiency. Some have moderate energy storage and great efficiency and some are neither. Not all designs are equal.

Compare a hill style to a super curve. A hill has relatively poor energy storage. With light arrows it doesn't transfer energy particularly well but as the weight goes up it utilizes the heavy limbs better and increases in efficiency. A super curve has great energy storage and has good efficiency. It utilizes energy better at lighter arrow weights than the hill. As arrow weight increases it will gain efficiency also. 

From what I understand there are tradeoffs in bow building. Within a given bow design a bowyer can alter things to increase energy storage. But, this usually decreases efficiency. Things that may increase efficiency may decrease energy storage. I think in the example I mentioned it's one of those bows that is built on the fine line of have excellent energy storage and efficiency for its design.


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## skramr12 (Dec 20, 2014)

Did you chrono the bow again with the heavier arrows?


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Is Bill OK? I haven't seen him post in a couple of days.


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## jacibo (Aug 8, 2011)

Maybe he took rsarns up on his invitation.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Looks like some good realistic numbers.
> 
> I've chronoed tons of bows. Everything from aggressive recurves to string follow longbows. I've shot some real burners and some that were shockingly slow. I haven't used the chrono to justify buying or selling a bow but it does make it interesting and educational.
> 
> ...





skramr12 said:


> Did you chrono the bow again with the heavier arrows?


No....I haven't...as I haven't been feeling well lately and had some other pressing life issues going on but what I have done is this...

1. Besides being chock full of some of the most insightful information regarding bow and arrow weights and velocities?...I highlighted *"The Key Formula"* for you that Str8 so kindly shared with us above and the funny thing for me here is...

as I think about it and all the years gone by?....how far have we really come with single string bow speeds?....after all...when I take into consideration that it was a couple decades ago that Mike Fedora's Legendary 560 shocked with jaw dropping speeds of well over 200FPS...and where are we at today? LOL!

Well?...we have "Choices"...Borders made some landmark progress in that they managed to break 200FPS with 10GPP exploiting "Big Hook" (aka: "Super Recurves") which make an excellent choice for the bow hunting archers seeking flatter trajectories and more K.E. for a higher level of Lethality with heavier arrow weights but aren't necessarily the best choice for those seeking to exploit ultralight arrow weights to take advantage of much lower draw weights for a competitive edge via bow control and reduced fatigue levels when shooting well over 100 shots in field competitions yet as I've demonstrated with a variety of lower weight bows that same 200fps is still on the table for those competitive archers wishing to use lower draw weights with extremely well behaved standard profile limbs...but all the highly experienced are already aware of this.

That said?...I would love nothing more than to have a set of HEX 7.5's on my Hunting/3D bows but would rather have (and wish they still made) Border ILF Hex 5's for my lower poundage target rigs...but alas?....it doesn't appear I'll be needing either.

2. "Perspective": is a word that comes too mind as I evaluate the many characteristics of "A Bow"....where in a "Self-Discovery" sort of way?....I've concluded that "Limb Profile" pretty much dictates what GPP they like best...where Big Hooks like Heavy Arrows?...the more subtle profile limbs can exhibit some pretty amazing performance levels when coupled with the right arrow weight/spine choice...but then?....this is also where "Riser Selection" becomes critical...and is the component that can in large part dictate just how well behaved (or not) ANY set of limbs may respond throughout the draw and primarily?...."at-the-shot".

And I find that when properly set-up?...the heavier machined aluminum risers are extremely capable of disciplining any choice of limbs with authority while exploiting the highest performance levels out of those limbs which brings me to what I did yesterday...which was finally get a precision scaled "mass weight" of my exquisite...

21" DAS Elite riser...



















as compared too my 19" Gillo Ghost Riser....



















And while these are both very massy risers for their size?...inch for inch?...The Gillo Ghost is heavier...But "Balance" is key as well...where I would give the DAS Elite the nod...but taking into account the DAS had 2"s more length in which to manipulate "Mass Location" and as such is more "Bottom Weighted" than is the Ghost?...in my eye's it's very close too "A Draw" between the two...until I take into account that the DAS Elite comes in at 2X's the cost...used...if you can find one...and only 65 RH Original models of the DAS Elite were ever made before becoming the 3 Rivers "Dalaa"...and I had one of those for a short time as well...










With "Bolt-Down Risers"?: The manufacturer professionally aligns the limbs and sets the tiller but...

With "ILF Risers"?: It's typically all left too the end user (unless it's sold as a pre-set-up package bow)...and this is where "Set-Up" can make or break the bow.

For instance?...5 years ago when ILF's were all "News Too Me"?...I had no clue what I was doing...and after a couple years of rejecting such?...did it anyway! LOL! 

When I look back?...I can clearly see (invoke: Hindsight 20/20) where I probably never had any of my wood core/black glass ILF limbs set-up properly...I'd clip on the limbs...string them up...and viola!...the string always seemed to find and line up just swell with the limb groove...so imagine my dismay the day I dropped $650 on what was my first set of torsionally stable CF limbs and what's this?...high end limbs and this is my first case of the string not just falling right into the limbs string groove? 

But this is when I learned that rigidly stable high end limbs DON'T allow the string tension to position them (incorrectly) unto the string and why God and the archery manufacturing folks came up with things like...."Beiter Limb Alignment Gauges" and?..."LLA"...(Lateral Limb Adjustment)

Cause see the problem is...

While every manufacturer wants to to claim..."Built To Perfect Precision"?...the folks making the limbs want them to fit every riser and the folks making the risers want every limb to fit...so they spec them accordingly but often times?...especially when "Mix & Matching" risers with limbs?....on occasion?....there's some slop involved...but Thank God there's Beiter Gauges and LLA in place to compensate and adjust for such!...There...I said it! LOL!

It's cold, windy and overcast today...depressing...I also feel I haven't really exploited the set-up of this Ghost bow to it's fullest...but I did receive a new Mountain Muffler string from Steve I'm setting up on the Ghost...I'm struggling with finding the optimum BH...toying with "Grip Or No Grip" isn't helping matters much!...I giess I need to "Measure That".

L8R, Bill.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx, I hate to give you a hard time....wait.....well maybe hate is too strong of a word. How about this, it makes me mildly uncomfortable giving you a hard time, but, scientist don't take pictures of all of their measurements. Rather than just criticizing, I am going to help. I am going to be your science mentor; your personal Bill Nye the science guy. I am going to assess your scientific "form", and no snap science allowed.

We will start with the lab notebook. Get a bound notebook with prenumbered pages. Write your results in ink. If you need to make a correction draw a single line through the number so that it can still be read. Sign and date the bottom of each page. Do not remove any pages from the notebook. Cross out and sign and date any pages that are skipped.

Then take a picture of your lab notebook and post it here. Wait...you got me. No picture. Build a table and post the results. Make sure you show all your units and carefully label row and column header so it is clear what you measured.

Lesson two will build one unified theory connecting quantum mechanics and relativity. You might want to read ahead.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, I hate to give you a hard time....wait.....well maybe hate is too strong of a word. How about this, it makes me mildly uncomfortable giving you a hard time, but, scientist don't take pictures of all of there measurements. Rather than just criticizing, I am going to help. I am going to be your science mentor; your personal Bill Nye the science guy. I am going to assess your scientific "form", and no snap science allowed.
> 
> We will start with the lab notebook. Get a bound notebook with prenumbered pages. Write your results in ink. If you need to make a correction draw a single line through the number so that it can still be read. Sign and date the bottom of each page. Do not remove any pages from the notebook. Cross out and sign and date any pages that are skipped.
> 
> ...


Thanks Hank but no need for further testing.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Come on Jinx. I thought we could start a science of archery subforum like there is over on PaleoPlanet.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Str8 Shooter said:


> BarneySlayer,
> Not always. Some designs have great energy storage but do not have great efficiency. Some have moderate energy storage and great efficiency and some are neither. Not all designs are equal.
> 
> Compare a hill style to a super curve. A hill has relatively poor energy storage. With light arrows it doesn't transfer energy particularly well but as the weight goes up it utilizes the heavy limbs better and increases in efficiency. A super curve has great energy storage and has good efficiency. It utilizes energy better at lighter arrow weights than the hill. As arrow weight increases it will gain efficiency also.
> ...


Thanks for making a point of it. I didn't _mean_ to imply otherwise, but... glad you caught it


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The limbs I have with the most relaxed geometry also seem to do the best with lighter arrows. Or perhaps another way of saying it is they do the worst with heavy ones. Either way they really seem to shoot nicely at the lower GPP.

Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> The limbs I have with the most relaxed geometry also seem to do the best with lighter arrows. Or perhaps another way of saying it is they do the worst with heavy ones. Either way they really seem to shoot nicely at the lower GPP.
> 
> Grant


True words Grant...and I find myself really enjoying the Ghost limbs and feel they were designed with much the same goals in mind as the Fedora 560 Hunter which claims...

*"When drawn back, the three-ply limb core flexes throughout the entire length, from taper to tip. This provides the bow with an impressively smooth draw even at a 60" size. We found it pulls quite nicely to 31" without fuss, so larger sizes will support long draws even better. The shooting quality holds up on the field, too. While not quite as fast as the smaller Sickle and Stalker models, we found it to be pretty quiet and lacking in shock."*

And to me?...this is the brilliance of Vittorio Frangilli in that he spec'ed out these short limbs in such a fashion that they too seem to flex throughout the entire length of the limb giving them a buttery smooth feeling draw where he claims they draw smoothly out to 30"s with zero stacking and for a 60" bow?...cool! 

Now I was at 6.75GPP getting right at 200FPS with a 27 1/2" DL...I figure that ain't bad...not bad at all...especially when all that "smooth" feels extremely stable as well.

I also find them to be inherently quiet and when mounted on the Ghost Riser they were designed for?...I can't feel any hand shock or vibes...just a very dead and abbreviated..."ThooomP!"

I'm also learning (the long hard way) this bow not only welcomes but enjoys a rather low BH...the sweet spot seems to be 7 1/2" BH (with the full grip) and 7 3/4" BH (without the full grip)

And then look at the $318 price tag on the limbs?...Deal! 

But the limbs quite literally aren't the 1/2 of it cause the Ghost riser flat out rox as well because where 19" risers are concerned?...for me it trumps the Mamba (also designed by Vittorio when he worked for Bernardini) due too having both "more" and? "better"....Grip Options. 

IMNSHO?...I think Vittorio deserves a round of applause for making a rig of this type, quality and performance available too us for under $700.


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> And to me?...this is the brilliance of Vittorio Frangilli in that he spec'ed out these short limbs in such a fashion that they too seem to flex throughout the entire length of the limb giving them a buttery smooth feeling draw where he claims they draw smoothly out to 30"s with zero stacking and for a 60" bow?...cool!
> 
> Now I was at 6.75GPP getting right at 200FPS with a 27 1/2" DL...I figure that ain't bad...not bad at all...especially when all that "smooth" feels extremely stable as well.
> 
> ...


You are right, and I completely agree! :thumbs_up


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*UPDATE:*


Well things are really coming together as I feel I'm closing in on that sweet chocolaty center of what is appearing to resemble an....

*"Optimum State-Of-Tune"*

for this bow I've affectionately dubbed....*"Casper"*..."The Friendly Ghost" LOL!

I've been through 3 string lengths experimenting with BH ranging from 8 1/2"s down too what these subtly profiled limbs seem to like best which is imho...

*7 1/2" BH (with the full grip) 7 3/4" BH (without the full grip)*

Two key indicators for me in establishing that is...

1. The limbs draw buttery smooth at that BH and....

2. Are still Extremely Quiet at-the-shot.

Now of course lowering the BH and adding the full wood grip changed things a bit to where my 145gr screw-ins were now showing considerably "weak"

so I swapped those out for 100gr points for a Total scaled arrow weight of 290gr for a smooth, fast and amazingly quiet 7.25GPP

28 1/4" Long 25/50 (.650spine) CT Cheetahs...18yds....3 Fletched/2 Bare...






























and Steve Baker is making me a Mountain Muffler String of 16 strands of BCY-X and just for the record?...the string length it (and I) seem to like best is...

56 1/2"s....which yields the BH's previously stated.

L8R, Bill.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Groups like that are definitely tough on flecthing...:thumbs_up


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## skramr12 (Dec 20, 2014)

Great shooting jinkster!! Ugh.....anyone want to buy a titan II riser??...jinks gets it lol


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Groups like that are definitely tough on flecthing...:thumbs_up


Yes they are EK...the good news?...I got a Bitzenberger with plenty of glue & feathers! 



skramr12 said:


> Great shooting jinkster!! Ugh.....anyone want to buy a titan II riser??...jinks gets it lol


Thanks skramr12! ....and yes I do.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Groups like that are definitely tough on flecthing...:thumbs_up


Hey EK!...I came up with a solution for that "Tough on Fletching" problem! LOL!

Back when I passed the Border Black Douglas/Hex 6.5 deal onto our man skramr12 here?...out of the kindness of his heart he sent me some full length .500 spine Beman ICS Bow Hunter shafts...and just for chuckles tonight?...I thought...

*"Gee....I ought to go ahead and glue the inserts in them and try them out on the Ghost as well."*

So I did and then figuring in the full length 31" flex factor screwed 125gr points in'em to try first then went out and shot all 7...now...don't ask me why cause I wasn't even looking at yardage markers and just stopped at where I felt comfy testing the first few shots to see what they would do...turned out I was at 14yds....(1yd ahead of my 15yd marker)...










They were flying straight down the pike but POI was about 4"s left of where I was aiming...











so a little more brace or a thinner strike plate ought to do it! 



















But then I pressed my luck a little to far when I wanted to see how the Thunder Child might respond with them...










that little 46# beast just had a bit to much spunk for these .500 spine bemans! Weak and Well Spaced! LOL!

Going to have to stick with the .400 spine Axis arrows with that little guy but even bare?...the .500 Bemans flew like darts off the Ghost! 

Thanks skramr12!


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> the .500 Bemans flew like darts off the Ghost!


Would you like to try some very nice aluminum shafts, in the same spine? See for instance:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3474722


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

lscotti said:


> Would you like to try some very nice aluminum shafts, in the same spine? See for instance:
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3474722


Thanks Iscotti and those are rather sharp looking and unique but?...I have just bought another dozen of these .500 spine Beman ICS shafts from skramr12 but thanks for offering.


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## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Those are some great groups! Good shootings!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Homey88 said:


> Those are some great groups! Good shootings!


Thanks Homey! 

But I can't take all the credit as besides being of very high quality at an extremely affordable price point?...I'm also finding this Gillo Ghost to be not only easy to tune but also a very forgiving and easy to shoot well bow...especially for a 60"er...like I've stated before it's like shooting a well sorted miniature Barebow!


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> Thanks Iscotti and those are rather sharp looking and unique but?...I have just bought another dozen of these .500 spine Beman ICS shafts from skramr12 but thanks for offering.


No worries, I understand.
However, do not underestimate the Ghost T/D with aluminum shafts...
Those wood/carbon limbs like X7 and XX78 alloy


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

lscotti said:


> No worries, I understand.
> However, do not underestimate the Ghost T/D with aluminum shafts...
> Those wood/carbon limbs like X7 and XX78 alloy


No doubt...it was my first set of (seamless drawn tubing) X7's that took me to becoming an NFAA/FAA State Ranked shooter BHFSL (compound/fingers) back in 1987...before the X7's?....I had never experienced that level of shaft too shaft consistency before and as a result?...my "Shot Confidence" went through the ceiling! 

Now if you want to sell me something?....if ya got an extra set of 40# Ghost limbs laying around?....I'd love to get those Hoyt F7's off my 27" Gillo G1! LOL!


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

Based on the info about your daughter, I'd say you have no need to explain the discrepancies to us and no mea culpa needed. Hope everything works out on the home front.


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