# Stupidity at its finest...



## gobblercrazy (May 9, 2008)

Well today I was shoot in the back yard and got the AWESOME idea of shooting at the wooden yard marker stake from 5 yards. After I release I hear a CRACK and see arrow parts and wood flying everywhere! Wow...now that went well. Lets see what the damage is...

Splintered shaft, really don't know what is curling out.








end of arrow that entered the shaft, splintering it. 








Snapped the arrow like a twig. 2 good things came out of this though. 

#1 It was a old arrow.

#2 I hit the wood dead on:wink:


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## PA3-DArcher4 (Nov 5, 2008)

Im still just wonderin WHY!!! lol


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## gobblercrazy (May 9, 2008)

I have no idea....

Theres a stick! lets shoot it!! :doh:

Well how I got the idea was there was a bird wondering by the target, so i shot REALLY low on purpose to scare it off (I always have a crap arrow with me for some reason) and it was sitting by the marker...and you know the rest of the story...


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## buglebuster (Feb 18, 2009)

Dont feel bad, just the other day I was at 40 yards shooting with my freind and thought I could shoot through the carrying stap on one target and hit the target behind it....well I shot, it looked perfect, but then the angle of the arrow made it so when the arrow went through half way, the carrying strap split it in half. Pieces everywhere!! I only found the fletching!! If it were'nt for the angle at 40 yards, I would of made it.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Huh. I've put my wooden arrows through the works and never gotten so much damage from shooting a piece of wood.


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> Huh. I've put my wooden arrows through the works and never gotten so much damage from shooting a piece of wood.


They arent as hollow or rigid.

Last year when I was getting my sight marks for outdoors/FITA I managed to shoot the target peg (iron tent peg like thing) at 90M because i estimated low . . . my arrow ended up in a pretty similar state :embara:


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## cody roiter (Jan 31, 2005)

The funny thing we archer's do.. I to have shot at many stick's but never had any thing like that happen with my wood arrows.. 

That curling out stuff is the inside's that hold every togetter.. from what I know it the almost like the glue I have had the curling out on many carbons.. thats y I did shot shooting them but I went back with I found the rigth arrows... But man I see from your pics from other post u look like u have a lot of arrows any way's..

Cody


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BIGBC said:


> They arent as hollow or rigid.
> 
> Last year when I was getting my sight marks for outdoors/FITA I managed to shoot the target peg (iron tent peg like thing) at 90M because i estimated low . . . my arrow ended up in a pretty similar state :embara:


Cane is, and my heavier birch arrows are as rigid. I've still never had anything like that happen.

I only mention it because time and time again people talk about carbon's superior strength, and how wooden arrows are "junk".

Well...


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> Cane is, and my heavier birch arrows are as rigid. I've still never had anything like that happen.
> 
> I only mention it because time and time again people talk about carbon's superior strength, and how wooden arrows are "junk".
> 
> Well...


I find it very hard to believe any wood arrows could be as rigid.

It all depends on how the carbon is weaved. It is possible to get a strength-to-weight ratio of upto 18x that of steel. Its also possible to weave the carbon to get flexibility. Its what makes carbon fibre such a useful material; the ability to design its properties.


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## Rory/MO (Jan 13, 2008)

I'm surprised it broke your arrow.. But hey, at least you hit it


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## arrow2008 (May 12, 2008)

wow. i have shot arrows and bent them cuz they wont penitrate the target. or i shoot an arrow with a arrow and it bends. crazy


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BIGBC said:


> I find it very hard to believe any wood arrows could be as rigid.
> 
> It all depends on how the carbon is weaved. It is possible to get a strength-to-weight ratio of upto 18x that of steel. Its also possible to weave the carbon to get flexibility. Its what makes carbon fibre such a useful material; the ability to design its properties.


You haven't done much work with hardwoods then. 

Everything can be given special cases. Truth be told, it's all a matter of marketing. For it's _weight_ carbon's the stiffest. How much wooden arrow shooting have you actually done?

But it definatly isn't the best


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## PA3-DArcher4 (Nov 5, 2008)

arrow2008 said:


> wow. i have shot arrows and bent them cuz they wont penitrate the target. or i shoot an arrow with a arrow and it bends. crazy


carbon doesn't bend, though...


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> You haven't done much work with hardwoods then.
> 
> Everything can be given special cases. Truth be told, it's all a matter of marketing. For it's _weight_ carbon's the stiffest. How much wooden arrow shooting have you actually done?
> 
> But it definatly isn't the best


Ive been working in hard, soft + composite woods for the past 3 years, and studying the properties of them. On paper + in person ive never come across a wood as rigid or strong for the weight as carbon. Woods have a natural springyness, comparitively they are soft, and so absorb much more impact; for example missing the target or hitting a peg of wood.

When Carbon is used in an arrow context it is generally manufactured to have a consistent reaction, be light and extremely strong UNIDIRECTIONALLY, it is not meant to take forces at an angle. because of the way it is constructed, and the resins used (stronger resins really bump the weight up due to the density) the arrow will splinter/fracture along the fibres.

Fact of the matter is, carbon arrows were never designed to shoot at hard materials or miss with. If you want/need to miss then Carbon is wrong for you. If not it posses many advantages.

btw, rigid means - stiff or unyielding; not pliant or flexible; hard. And I do regularly shoot an english longbow and 'classic hunter' replica traditional bows with wooden arrows.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

For it's weight- yeah, nothing beats carbon. But they can be as stiff. And like I said before, cane and boo definately do.

I've been told time and time again though, that through and through carbons beat wood for durability. Obviously... not so much:lol:.

And if you're shooting cedars, you really haven't seen durability


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> I've been told time and time again though, that through and through carbons beat wood for durability. Obviously... not so much:lol:.


Your missing the point.
Sitting there + shooting random crap isnt what a carbon arrow is meant for. Yeah, if thats what you want to do a wooden arrow from a trad bow is the best choice.
Carbon arrows are generally shot from compounds/recurves and not trad bows, and so carry more energy, therefore the damage is more evident.
A Carbon arrow is more durable than a wooden arrow when you are consistently hitting a target. You cant really compare until your arrows are carrying the same energy and therefore taking the same beating anyway.

(just thought, maybe ur arrows are carrying the same KE due to higher weight. I dont really know . . .)


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BIGBC said:


> Your missing the point.
> Sitting there + shooting random crap isnt what a carbon arrow is meant for. Yeah, if thats what you want to do a wooden arrow from a trad bow is the best choice.
> Carbon arrows are generally shot from compounds/recurves and not trad bows, and so carry more energy, therefore the damage is more evident.
> A Carbon arrow is more durable than a wooden arrow when you are consistently hitting a target. You cant really compare until your arrows are carrying the same energy and therefore taking the same beating anyway.
> ...


And you're missing a point too- I've been repeatedly attacked for my arrow choice by people who didn't know that there was a difference.

In terms of sheer speed, carbons are the way to go. But unlike what 99% of people out there shooting them, they aren't the holy grail. If you haven't noticed, most people aren't that smart

And recurves _are_ trad bows. Besides, some of the first arrows I had were carbons, and I killed then with a really crappy 35# stick.

My point: great for targets, but not the holy grail


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> And you're missing a point too- I've been repeatedly attacked for my arrow choice by people who didn't know that there was a difference.
> 
> In terms of sheer speed, carbons are the way to go. But unlike what 99% of people out there shooting them, they aren't the holy grail. If you haven't noticed, most people aren't that smart
> 
> ...


Yeah but if you look back at this discussion that wasnt a point you raised until now. I didnt attack you for your choice of arrow.

Recurves certainly arent considered traditional over here - that is; olympic style recurves. I should have been more clear on that.

+ wooden arrows from a compound presents a whole new issue with gradient splits and complete splinterrings on loose. I only raise this as that is the context on which this started.


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## Southern Boy (Sep 4, 2008)

*idea lets drop it id hate to see eather of you be banned*


BIGBC said:


> Yeah but if you look back at this discussion that wasnt a point you raised until now. I didnt attack you for your choice of arrow.
> 
> Recurves certainly arent considered traditional over here - that is; olympic style recurves. I should have been more clear on that.
> 
> + wooden arrows from a compound presents a whole new issue with gradient splits and complete splinterrings on loose. I only raise this as that is the context on which this started.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

GA- doesn't seem like Big or I have become rude or disrespectful. We're jsut debating- it's the internet, it happens. Let it go.

If I hadn't mentioned it as a point, then that's my fault. But several times I've been attacked for using wooden arrows, even from longbows, because carbons are "better". The point others have always used was their durability- which isn't their greatest feature (which is the greatest strnegth and stiffness for their rediculously light weight, which is why carbon is used in many of the better products out there today). So when a thread like this comes up, I feel a little bit of begrudgery still there from all the times someone has thought ill of my choice of gear (hardly a choice because I don't have any money for carbons/aluminums anyway). With the many young archers out there, I'm also trying to take a step to nip that sort of propaganda in the bud. Which your insights have done more to help than my mindless arguements, so thank you.

For the most part, anything without cams or wheels is a traditional bow to me. But then again, it all depends on whom you talk to:lol:. 

Wooden arrows from a compound is an intersting idea. Some older compounds I'm sure would be able to shoot them- provided they were overspined. But new compounds are simply "too efficient" for lack of a better word, and would wind up dry-firing. More than that, there's no reason to bother risking it as aluminum and carbon are vastly more consistent, which is much better when shooting with a sight.

I wonder how aluminum plays? Seems to have excellent consistency, but a great deal of durability? Any aluminum shooters able to shed some light?


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## BIGBC (Jan 29, 2007)

kegan said:


> GA- doesn't seem like Big or I have become rude or disrespectful. We're jsut debating- it's the internet, it happens. Let it go.
> 
> If I hadn't mentioned it as a point, then that's my fault. But several times I've been attacked for using wooden arrows, even from longbows, because carbons are "better". The point others have always used was their durability- which isn't their greatest feature (which is the greatest strnegth and stiffness for their rediculously light weight, which is why carbon is used in many of the better products out there today). So when a thread like this comes up, I feel a little bit of begrudgery still there from all the times someone has thought ill of my choice of gear (hardly a choice because I don't have any money for carbons/aluminums anyway). With the many young archers out there, I'm also trying to take a step to nip that sort of propaganda in the bud. Which your insights have done more to help than my mindless arguements, so thank you.
> 
> ...


I hadnt meant to come off as angry or peeved in any way. I was really just discussing things, or thats how i saw it anyways. And I hadnt taken anything u'd said as negative or personal either Kegan.

I always think its wrong when i see someone shooting a traditional bow (i mean non olympic style things) with anything but wood. A good wood arrow is going to shoot just as well from a trad bow as any £20 arrow.

I also think you deserve a great deal of respect for making your own arrows, and doing it well.

You'll probly find it interesting that I dont shoot all carbons for that exact reason; their durability is just awful. The carbon wears from the friction of hitting a target over and over. I used to shoot Lightspeeds but after 4 months of shooting they were worn and started fracturing at the point end so i moved onto Redlines, same thing happened, then I went to ACC's and again they wore. All this time I had been shooting a single set of Cobalt X7's indoors, and the only time I had them break was when I shot another arrow into one.
So i bought myself some Axis FMJ's (outer layer is a thin Aluminium I believe and the inner core is Carbon giving the strength of carbon and durability + easy target removal of an aluminium arrow) and havent had any wear issues over the past 1 and a bit years of shooting them.

Im of the opinion that carbons strength to weight ratio gives a better arrow speed making them a superior arrow for outdoors, however they will 'age' which is something that puts me off an outer carbon arrow. Aluminium arrows are superior indoors/close range arrows as the speed is just not needed and the aluminium will perform just as well, last longer and are generally cheaper.
A hybrid arrow brings a compromise together; best of both worlds.

I guess in a way this whole thing was a misunderstanding, and we have very similar opinions on this. I also thought we were discussing this maturely and intelligently - I saw no reason for banning.

:darkbeer:


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## buglebuster (Feb 18, 2009)

You guys ought to get a law degree....


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## turkey track (Apr 14, 2008)

buglebuster said:


> You guys ought to get a law degree....


lol i used to shoot aluminum tough as hell id shoot them and bend them take a torch bend them back in a vice good as new i was shooting a old darton ( first bow) and strait down the arrow type of deal. now i use carbon and s mathews drenalin and i like the new better as cost effecient the other one.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I've just learned a LOT about aluminum arrows!!!

Before now I had only seen two places where someone prefered aluminum arrows. From what I was told (and by even more people than had told me wood were junk) alumnum were done once they bend, and they enjoy bending. Here and there it began to seem like aluminum were just a stepping stone in the evelution of carbons.

I'm glad that's certainly not the case!

See? Dissucions _are_ good!


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## tutone500 (Feb 19, 2009)

At the Glenwood shoot i watched a few carbon arrows flying at 300fps just blow up when they missed the target and smacked trees. Traditional shooters shoot at slower speeds and less damage.


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## turkey track (Apr 14, 2008)

lost 2 arrows today shooting at black birds : ( there goes 15 bucks down the drain i know where one is but its sumberged in a foot of water ^_^


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

turkey track said:


> lost 2 arrows today shooting at black birds : ( there goes 15 bucks down the drain i know where one is but its sumberged in a foot of water ^_^


Wow, I went swimming for a $2 arrow once. Now I feel silly.


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## BigBuckStinger (Dec 9, 2007)

:doh:do not shoot threw medel becouse my arrow terned out as then as a peice of paper


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

kegan said:


> I've just learned a LOT about aluminum arrows!!!
> 
> Before now I had only seen two places where someone prefered aluminum arrows. From what I was told (and by even more people than had told me wood were junk) alumnum were done once they bend, and they enjoy bending. Here and there it began to seem like aluminum were just a stepping stone in the evelution of carbons.
> 
> ...


One of the benefits of aluminum shafts is that they are malleable, meaning you can bend em, but.. that means you can also unbend em.. guys like me shot alums for a looooong time before carbon came into the archery world.. for durability, I'll take an alum over a carbon shaft any day... that said, I shoot primarily carbons, or carbon alum composites. Drawback being, if you mess em up, ya gotta trash em.. or make a planter pole out of em.. 

Wooden shafts can take a great degree of flexing and torquing before they fail.. but today's archers know little about em, except for the traditional archers that have learned the benefits of good, ol fashioned trees.. :thumb:


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