# Using a sight on a traditional bow is not a sin nor untraditional



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

:darkbeer::thumbs_up


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up 

Ray :shade:


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Posts like this that help fill us younger archers about the standard practices of the past, and how they apply to the present, are terrific. Thanks for the post.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Guess I'll be the odd duck. I think there's a reason folks gravitated away from sights on traditional bows--fads only carry so many for so long, what works is what hangs around. 

The reason I've never even considered using a sight on a traditional bow (I'd all but gotten away from them when I shot a compound) was the FACT that, for me, simple is better. I'd grown disgusted with constantly having to "baby" my bow in fear of something coming loose, getting moved, being broken, etc.

Proper instruction is the key. One of the main reason compound bows are so popular, especially with beginners, is they do a lot of things for you. Mechanical rests, mechanical release, draw stops, adjustable draw weights, etc. etc. etc. Just adjust the sights, pull it back, place the pin, and squeeze. It's not nearly so simple with a traditional bow--adding sight pins won't make a shooter consistent, or steady, or have a good release.

The proper mechanics of good shooting remain the same with or without sights. Consider the DVD "Masters of the Barebow III", which is being used as an instructional benchmark in some national programs. Aiming systems are barely mentioned, if at all. The reason is simple--shooting a traditional bow properly doesn't change regardless of the aiming system (or lack thereof). If you do it right, you will group arrows.

Just to clarify, I don't think sights/sight pins are "un-traditional" or any kind of parriah to the sport. If they work for you, great--but there are some real, practical reasons they aren't for everyone.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Nice historical perspective. Thank you for sharing. When I receive my first new hunting recurve in 1974 it came pre-drilled for sights and I used them.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LBR:

Two clichés come to mind: "Different strokes for different folks" and "The more things change, the more they remain the same."

Obviously your objections and opinions are emanating from a higher level of experience and expertise than that to which I intended my posting to reach and be (hopefully) informative and maybe helpful.

As for the "Masters of the Barebow III" assessment; of course the use of a sighting system is not being covered, that (the use of a sight) is not what is being instructed; how to shoot accurately with a _"barebow"_ is. Other than the clips on "You Tube" I have never watched any of the DVD's. Do the persons demonstrating and explaining how to be accurate with a barebow also advise against the use of a sight system and explain why?


----------



## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

Use a sight if you want to, you will not be shooting in alot of traditional 3D events, not allowed! Why? I would assume it would not be a "fair" playing ground any more. You can use whatever you want, use a range finder too if you want. Hope your not trying to convince the rest of use that your way is the right way.
The "Masters of the barebow" clearly talks about using a sighting system - Sosa does it with his little hole thingy. If your in a big hurry to "hit the X" then a sight would help - it would always help. Not my style with traditional equipment, would rather go instinctive, which is why I use it.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rraming said:


> Hope your not trying to convince the rest of use that your way is the right way.


His way is **a** right way--one of many. I hope you are at least convinced of that.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

rraming: 



> _Hope your not trying to convince the rest of use that your way is the right way._


If you are familiar with my posts then you would know that I commonly emphasis that what works for one may not necessarily work for another, that "One size does not fit all." Conversely; what may not work for one might work for another.

As for the target competition thingy, my emphasis was on a method that might be beneficial to some and bowhunting.



> _*If your in a big hurry*_ to "hit the X" then a sight would help -


 ?

PS: Just realized you were referring to David *Soza*, the inventor of the SRF sight designed to be used on a recurve bow, the sight you refer to as a "hole thingy." Here is the lead-off on the advertisement for the SRF sight.

"SRF sights are a revolutionary new sighting system *designed specifically for bowhunting*. They allow rapid target acquisition, instantaneous range adjustment, and the ability to track moving and even flying game."


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I should clarify this statement:


> "I think there's a reason folks gravitated away from sights on traditional bows--fads only carry so many for so long, what works is what hangs around."


What I meant is not using sights is not just a fad that popped up. It works for a lot of people, else it would have gone the way of so many other fads that pop up.



> Obviously your objections and opinions are emanating from a higher level of experience and expertise than that to which I intended my posting to reach and be (hopefully) informative and maybe helpful.


Not objections, just clarifications--i.e., keeping it simple isn't a fable for many of us. Actually the NASP (National Archery in Schools Program), in which children can start participating in at grade level 4, teaches them to shoot (from the beginning) with no sights. It's enjoyed HUGE success.



> Do the persons demonstrating and explaining how to be accurate with a barebow also advise against the use of a sight system and explain why?


Not at all. I need to watch it again to know for sure if a sight system is even discussed (I don't think it is), but Rod Jenkins is a (very accurate) gap shooter. Shooting "barebow" doesn't eliminate a sighting system--the most common is gap or split-vision, incorporating the arrow point like a sight pin. Like I said earlier, sight or no sight, consistency is the key. Shooting properly remains the same regardless of how you aim.



> The "Masters of the barebow" clearly talks about using a sighting system...


-

I was referring to Volume III.


----------



## NHBarcher (Feb 2, 2007)

I've never run into any trad-nazi's, maybe I don't get out enough. But if you go to a trad shoot in my area with a sight on your bow, you'll be an odd duck. I know, I've done it! Unless you're competing in a class, who cares?

A sight is a great way to check your form, improve your accuracy, and increase your effective range a bit. With a hunting weight bow it's a good way to develop target panic, too.

I agree with the practicality and time capsule comments. Putting all the various mechanical improvements into context, short of wheels, everything that's been done to compound bows has already been done to recurves- sights, kissers/peeps, stabilizers, releases, elevated rest, cut to centershot, metal risers. The reasons, of course, were technical progress- mankind generally seeks better tools, "traditional" archery is an aberration. It's just that in a hunting application, some of these improvements are limited or impractical.

It seems the most strident "trad nazi's" on the web are either compound shooters who got burned out, bored, and frustrated, or grumpy old men who tried compounds in their infancy, decided they were junk, and now don't like what bowhunting has turned into.


----------



## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

To each their own, I dont see it personally. If I needed to use a sight and wanted to rely on technology I would he using my compound. It far outweighs the trad setup in evey aspect and is a much greater killing machine and target tool. I shoot trad without all the bells and whistles by choice. Good post and it shows the options that are out there to the norm....


----------



## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I still see sights on trad bows. I don't see them at 3D shoots but I do see them on hunting bows and even fishing bows. My favorite hang out place has a bow shop, its fun to go see what comes in the door. It's like a live history lesson that needs a new string or "is this thing safe"?.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

NHBarcher said:


> I've never run into any trad-nazi's, maybe I don't get out enough.


Show up at Compton with a Metal Riser take down, elevated rest, stabilizer and vanes on your carbon arrows and you'll get a lot of snarky comments. I primarily do not use a sight because I enjoy the IBO RU and ASA Traditional 3D classes and the gap aiming technique transfer over to hunting very well (for me). However I've been toying with picking up a SRF sight to try out for hunting.

It's all archery...just slightly different flavors.


----------



## appalachianhunt (Feb 5, 2011)

this is not trad shooting no sights no training wheels .


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Putting all the various mechanical improvements into context, short of wheels, everything that's been done to compound bows has already been done to recurves- sights, kissers/peeps, stabilizers, releases, elevated rest, cut to centershot, metal risers. The reasons, of course, were technical progress- mankind generally seeks better tools, "traditional" archery is an aberration.


Yep. Sights were just a step in the direction of compound bows. Compound bows were developed to be "easier", "better", etc. It's strange--we choose a weapon that is more of a challenge, then tack on everything we can to make it "easier".

Sights, even on a compound bow, were detrimental to me in most hunting situations. The reason being is most game movement is when the light isn't good--sun coming up or going down--and I couldn't put the pin on the spot in low light. It never occured to me I could learn to shoot a compound bow "barebow"--if it had, I might still be doing it. Glad that didn't cross my mind.

Either way, do what works for you. I'm not convinced that a sight helps much if anything, if you have proper instruction to begin with.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _this is not trad shooting no sights no training wheels ._


Exactly what is "trad shooting?"


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Exactly what is "trad shooting?"



:book1: sheet, can't find it.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

When sights on a recurve bow first appeared in the 30's in competition events I highly doubt anyone had yet conceived the idea of a compound bow. Therefore, the purpose of sights on a recurve, as were early non-mechanical releases, were undoubtedly someone's idea of improving the accuracy and consistent accuracy shooting a recurve; not a preparatory prelude to the forthcoming compound bow which was not yet invented.

When I first started using a recurve to bowhunt deer it was not for the purpose of being a "challenge." My becoming a serious large game bowhunter was a fluke. 

In the 60's, many states had just reestablished deer populations, purposely or as a result of migration, that had at one time had been nearly or completely obliterated from the state. In many states, the use of firearms was restricted to shotguns, the counties open to gun hunting were very few and often required traveling hundreds of miles, only a certain number of shotgun permits were issued, and in some states/counties the open season was but 2 days. Only a limited number of shotgun permits were issued and you were extremely lucky if you got one.

One day I chanced to walk by a small archery shop, which (archery shops) were unique in those days. Having been a rabbit and bird shooter with a longbow, I decided to go in the shop out of simple curiosity. I left with my first recurve, an over-bowed 56" Ben Pearson, and a dozen of wood arrows. At that time my bowhunting interest was still rabbits and birds and I still had not acquired a "challenge" mentality.

The small shop moved to a 2 story-building. Had a pro shop (stickbows), a 20 and 35 yard indoor range, and free coaching by experienced archers, a few being well-known competitive archers and one, a WW2 vet, having been member of a group of vets who apparently were instrumental in starting some type of archery events while stationed in Europe.

Then one deer season, the vet (Bill) arranged for anyone who wanted to go, to go to a hunting club in Wisconsin to bowhunt deer. Apparently this club had members who had once been instrumental in the widespread interest and legalization of bowhunting, and that he knew Fred Bear and an old bowhunter by the name of; Roy Case. I could not make the trip, but did end up traveling about 230 miles for a week of my first attempt at bowhunting deer. 

I did not tag a deer on that trip though deer were everywhere but in my line if fire or limited shooting distance or not on a dead run. I returned home; tired, beat down, hungry, and shy quite a bit of money. I decided that bowhunting deer was not for me. That decision lasted for about a week and then 47 years later the rest is history. However, I did not resume deer hunting with a bow just because I considered it "challenging." Using a bow was still a necessity if you wanted to hunt deer....and for longer than 2 days.

Now committed to the sport I started upgrading my equipment, but I still had not acquired an attitude that I would be a bowhunter because it was "challenging" and "difficult." Being challenging and difficult was and is just an unavoidable aspect of hunting with a bow. I stayed with the bow because using a bow allowed deer hunting in more areas, 90 days of season vs. 2 days, and obtaining a permit, though not guaranteed, the chances were nearly 100% if you chose the right county. I always received a permit.

Almost immediately I started setting up my bows as others had already been doing. First came the sights and a rest, then bought a couple of bows that were tapped for stabs, then came the kisser button (hunting bow) for establishing a consistent anchor and draw-length. Some shooters installed clickers; I passed on that one. Then we started using better sights...even target-type sights, crude range finding devices, Game Trackers, fiberglass arrows, etc, etc. 

All of this "stuff" was being used strictly for the purpose of improving performance, improving accuracy and enabling consistent accuracy, and to extend the shooting range. None of the "stuff" was ever thought of as making shooting a recurve "easier" or bowhunting "easier'" Regardless of what was mounted on the bow, the bows, whether they were a longbow or recurve, were still a longbow or recurve and still required pulling and holding full draw-weight and releasing the string with fingers...though some of us bowhunters eventually did experiment with early releases but due to design they were not easily adaptable to bowhunting conditions.

I don't recall any discussions regarding accessories that would make shooting a stickbow _"easier."_ Being that compound bows were not yet invented, the concept of wheels on the limbs, and let off and less holding weight would have been science fiction and laughable.

Bowhunters and manufacturers were constantly coming up with ideas and accessories meant to bring the stickbow out of the "primitive" stage" and improve performance and accuracy. You know! The "stage" that today is referred to as "simple" or "traditional."

Concern of equipment failure never subordinated the possible enhanced performance and accuracy. Things break, but because they do/did was not a common reason why some did not partake. I am sure that keeping things simple was why some bowhunters did not use certain accessories, but keeping it "simple" wasn't a prevalent reason and not considered a violation of the then unknown "trad" thing.. I have owned and used many bows, stick and wheel, and in 47 years I have never had 1 bow or piece of equipment fail, other than having 1 wood shaft break as it cleared the riser. And believe me; my equipment was/is exposed to the worst of conditions.

If a shooter desires to keep his or her bow bare; also described as "simple," that is the person's choice and prerogative and should never be a subject of ridicule. 

As for condemnation and/or ridicule, clearly expressed or subtle, of those that do not abide by the KISS rule or the infamous "traditional" rule; such terms and labels as_ "not traditional, not simple, not challenging, too easy, makes it too easy, won't work, detrimental, good form and constant practice is all one should need, and the BIG one that sets my butt on fire; if you want or need all that, why don't you just use a compound bow, etc, etc,"_ are utter BS, and to someone that comes from and through my era of bowhunting, such beliefs and criticisms come off as foolish and arrogant! 

As far as I am concerned, you can attach a bathroom sink to your bow if you believe that washing your hands before each shot improves your shooting. As long as you still have to pull and hold the bow with no assistance of wheels or any other let-off device, the bow is still a recurve or a longbow and requires the same effort to shoot it as does a "simple" version. If you convince me that the sink method actually works, I just might give it a try.


----------



## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Traditonally, a kitchen sink has been used (thus the expression "Everything, including .....").
I don't know if I consider a bathroom sink "traditional".

But I DO consider sights "traditional", and don't really care if others do or not.
It's my bow, and I will shoot it like I want to, so there !!!

Sights, like bowties, are cool !!!


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Therefore, the purpose of sights on a recurve, as were early non-mechanical releases, were undoubtedly someone's idea of improving the accuracy and consistent accuracy shooting a recurve; not a preparatory prelude to the forthcoming compound bow which was not yet invented.


Not a preparatory prelude, but both came along for the same reason--an attempt at making shooting a bow easier.



> When I first started using a recurve to bowhunt deer it was not for the purpose of being a "challenge." My becoming a serious large game bowhunter was a fluke.


I don't doubt that. However, one of the main reasons for the huge resurgence of interest in tradtional archery in the last 15 or so years is many people are bored with compounds, and are looking for a challenge. Original archery seasons for deer were not for population control--they were allowed primarily due to the minimal impact on herd numbers. The reason is simple--it was much more of a challenge to kill a deer with traditional equipment. The majority of people hunting with traditional gear these days do so for the challenge. If you just want to fill the freezer, there are much easier ways of doing it.




> I stayed with the bow because using a bow allowed deer hunting in more areas, 90 days of season vs. 2 days, and obtaining a permit, though not guaranteed, the chances were nearly 100% if you chose the right county. I always received a permit.


And most all folks today that use a bow just to extend their season and/or have a better chance at a permit use a compound--because it's easier.



> All of this "stuff" was being used strictly for the purpose of improving performance, improving accuracy and enabling consistent accuracy, and to extend the shooting range. None of the "stuff" was ever thought of as making shooting a recurve "easier" or bowhunting "easier'"


If improved performance, improved accuracy, consistent accuracy, and extended ranges don't make shooting a bow easier, then what is the point? If it's not easier, what is it? Those are the same reasons for the invention of the compound bow, and the reasons they are so much more popular than tradtional gear--because they are easier.



> If a shooter desires to keep his or her bow bare; also described as "simple," that is the person's choice and prerogative and should never be a subject of ridicule.


I agree--that's why I objected to this comment: "Completely dismissing the phony "trad" rule and that "simplicity is always the best," ". That is just a fact for many of us.

I believe folks should use what works for them and/or what they are comfortable with. I also believe that just because certain things work for one person doesn't mean they will work for all. I don't doubt individual experiences, but when compared to nationwide programs and trends that have been working for decades, I have to go with the numbers.

I have a couple of questions:



> good form and constant practice is all one should need,


What is incorrect with that statement? Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but the above is a proven fact, even with....ESPECIALLY with kids.



> if you want or need all that, why don't you just use a compound bow


From at least some of us, that is a sincere question. I don't understand the concept.



> As far as I am concerned, you can attach a bathroom sink to your bow if you believe that washing your hands before each shot improves your shooting.


I agree--whatever works--but I am prone to asking what makes you think clean hands will make you shoot better.

I see the biggest difference being your opinions and definitions are based on "then", rather than "now". When sights were new, they were seen as a big aid and lot of people were trying them. After years of trial and error, it's been proven that accurate shooting comes from good form and practice, with or without sights. If you don't have the basics down and/or don't ever practice, you won't shoot well regardless of what you put on or leave off of your bow.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LBR:

Either your reading comprehension is poor or you pray 5 times a day to the "Trad God," or both. 

I don't care to engage in "quote and rebuttal," but are you saying that sights on a recurve bow are waste of time and won't assist anyone in improvement of accuracy? 

PS: Caught the subtle "then" and "now" dig.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Maybe you can explain what I missed? I have no "trad god". I don't even have a "trad hero".



> ...but are you saying that sights on a recurve bow are waste of time and won't assist anyone in improvement of accuracy?


I said what I meant. Nationally recognized coaches and training programs, i.e. the NASP (National Archery in Schools Program) focus on form and consistency to obtain accuracy, as does what is considered by most to be the best instructional DVD on the market today (Masters of the Barebow, Volume III).



> PS: Caught the subtle "then" and "now" dig.


There was no "dig". You plainly refer to when you started, your generation, etc., back when sights were introduced, etc.



> When sights on a recurve bow first appeared in the 30's...
> 
> In the 60's,...
> 
> That decision lasted for about a week and then 47 years later the rest is history.




Things are obviously quite different now. I believe that at least some of that difference is based on what has been learned about shooting since "modern" archery took root in the U.S.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LBR:

I have a sneaky feeling you are deeply involved in competitive "barebow" target competition.

In case you do not know; disk brakes, front wheel drive, the overhead cams, automatic transmissions....were invented and used but faded out many years before the systems were reintroduced in an improved version and called "revolutionary." Until the systems were _reintroduced_, most likely everyone was driving skillfully and just fine.

I still recall the thread when and older recurve bowhunter stated that he was a recurve bowhunter and that no matter how hard he tried and practiced he couldn't shoot accurately without a sight, and that his 60-year old eyesight needed an assist. He wanted to install sights, and asked questions about best type and whether he should/could use a peep. The very first reply was:

_



..this is traditional archey u dont use sights go over to the compound forum for this

Click to expand...

_
Opposition by the "trad police" to those who wish to use certain accouterments on their stickbows isn't always as abrupt and as arrogant, but is present quite often in a subtle manner.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I have a sneaky feeling you are deeply involved in competitive "barebow" target competition.


You'll get a much more accurate answer by asking. :tongue:

Deeply involved? If by that you mean a serious competitor, no. I very much enjoy shooting in 3-D tournaments, I belong to a few clubs, and I'm a chairman with another, but none of these clubs are seriously competitive, nor is the drive behind them serious competition. The tournaments are more like social gatherings for the most part.

The one example you offer could very well be an exception to the rule, or maybe he just hadn't recieved good instruction. I've shot with some older gentlemen who literally couldn't tell a hog target from a bear target, but if they could figure out which end was which, they could hit the kill. 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the simple points I made though?

If you are referring to me as being one of the "trad police", you couldn't be further off base. Shoot what you like, how you like. My goal in posting is getting accurate information to those that need it and/or are interested in it. My simple point remains untouched: accurate shooting is founded on good instruction, good form, and practice. If you don't have these, your shooting will be mediocre at best--with or without sights. This is fact, along with the proven fact that sight pins, peeps, etc. aren't a requirement for the majority of traditional shooters to shoot accurately.


----------



## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

> My simple point remains untouched: accurate shooting is founded on good instruction, good form, and practice. If you don't have these, your shooting will be mediocre at best--with or without sights.


I can get down with this. 

However, I think that modern archers, especially the neophytes I know, simply don't have time to devote to practice that can lead to barebow excellence and really are given two choices: Quit or use sights. 

It's ok to use sights, imo. If you want to challenge yourself a bit more and forego them, so much the better. But, a lot of people simply don't have time to develop and maintain that level of skill nowadays.

Traditional is a big tent, and there's room for a lot of different perspectives.


----------



## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)




----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

_I have a sneaky feeling you are deeply involved in competitive "barebow" target competition.

In case you do not know; disk brakes, front wheel drive, the overhead cams, automatic transmissions....were invented and used but faded out many years before the systems were reintroduced in an improved version and called "revolutionary." Until the systems were reintroduced, most likely everyone was driving skillfully and just fine.

I still recall the thread when and older recurve bowhunter stated that he was a recurve bowhunter and that no matter how hard he tried and practiced he couldn't shoot accurately without a sight, and that his 60-year old eyesight needed an assist. He wanted to install sights, and asked questions about best type and whether he should/could use a peep. The very first reply was:

..*this is traditional archey u dont use sights go over to the compound forum for this *
Opposition by the "trad police" to those who wish to use certain accouterments on their stickbows isn't always as abrupt and as arrogant, but is present quite often in a subtle manner. _



The fellas that make statements like this just dont know what they're talking about. I shoot instinctive because that's the way I started out. Like Windwalker , I saw many archers in the 70's that used sights. Whatever works for an individual is what I recommend.
My question to the trad-police is this.........are you shooting a pre-1950 bow without fiberglas laminations? Are you shooting self-nocked arrows? Are you using a sinew or linen string? Are you using homemade broadheads?
Guess it depends on how far back into history you want to go when you start stating that something is not _traditional_. Most guys that make statements like that are post-compound era shooters.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> However, I think that modern archers, especially the neophytes I know, simply don't have time to devote to practice that can lead to barebow excellence and really are given two choices: Quit or use sights.


Sights don't work miracles. They might help someone hit a target at 10 yds, or might not. Again, with or without sights, good shooting requires good instruction and practice.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> simply don't have time to devote to practice that can lead to barebow excellence


I may be wrong, but I interpreted the statement to mean that with some shooters they have everything else pinned down but as is not uncommon, the person just cannot get the hang of shooting consistently accurately using the instinctive method, which not too many ever become proficient at regardless how much they practice, or ever become proficient at gapping or split-vision regardless how much they practice. In those cases, using a sight system just might be the ticket. 

Without a sight I can shoot consistently good out to -/+ 30 yards, well enough that I will only shoot 3 arrow rounds to avoid damaging arrows. If I use my sights I only shoot singles at separate spots because I know my groups will tighten up considerably and I am not into Robin Hoods and sliders because I don't want to ruin good arrows.


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

As sight gives a person a mechanical advantage. It is not considered traditional in the modern use of the term. Sights are not allowed in most traditional competitions for a reason. As has been said it gives a mechanical advantage. I really don't think anyone is arguing about sights being an advantage as far as accuracy. For that matter compounds, releases, vanes all have had there "advantage". The concern, I believe is that sights will creap back into competitions. Then the bickering begins about the advantage. Traditional, from the perspective today, is that there is no sight on the bow. The inheirent advantage of that appendage on the bow creates a mechanical advantage.


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

dragonheart said:


> As sight gives a person a mechanical advantage. It is not considered traditional in the modern use of the term. Sights are not allowed in most traditional competitions for a reason. As has been said it gives a mechanical advantage. I really don't think anyone is arguing about sights being an advantage as far as accuracy. For that matter compounds, releases, vanes all have had there "advantage". The concern, I believe is that sights will creap back into competitions. Then the bickering begins about the advantage. Traditional, from the perspective today, is that there is no sight on the bow. The inheirent advantage of that appendage on the bow creates a mechanical advantage.



You never heard the term traditional pre 1990...I didn't anyway. My point is just this......if a bow doesn't have wheels and cams, it doesn't classify as a compound. LBR said it,.... sights dont work miracles, you have to execute the shot on your own power regardless, whether you shoot instinctive, gap, point aim, ect.
I've been to shoots where you could not shoot 3-under. I dont go to trad-shoots to compete anymore...just for fun. A lot of American Indians shot 3-under, so, I guess they would be disqualified.
However a fella can get the arrow to the target with a recurve or longbow really shouldn't matter. I saw a lot of sights on bows when I started in the 70's [and rests]. 
Some people just dont know the history of archery I guess.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Please excuse me I if offend anyone; being primarily a bowhunter I have always considered instructions and advice that are based_ strictly and unwaveringly _on target shooting to be more aggravating and too commonly limiting (for bowhunters) than the "trad" rule thing, especially when the subject of the discussion is bowhunting related.

I consider it to be absurd to advise against or eliminate using certain equipment and methods that could benefit a person only because it ain't an "Oly" thing or some damn target shooting tournament won't allow it. The _"Lets, by any means available, force a non-use of certain hunting equipment for fear the use might creep into the target shooting community" _makes me want to hit myself in the head with a hammer. 

Separate tournament (target shooting) classifications are very valid and I have absolutely no problem with that. But when the target shooting community and individual target shooters start campaigning against the use of particular methods and equipment by bowhunters, using strict target shooting arguments, demeaning titles, or some idiotic rule such as "That ain't traditional," that is where I draw the line.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

"That ain't traditional" seems to be more a hunter response/gripe around here. Same as the incessant "instinctive" argument. Target shooters put it to book. They don't need or want to have to repeat any argument.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

The "that ain't traditional" argument doesn't hold water with me either. If someone is putting on a tournament, the get to set the rules and I respect that. If I don't like it, I have the option of either being an active member that gets to set the rules, or put on my own tournament.

I also am primarily a hunter, and accurate information is my goal in posting on a message board or anywhere else I'm swapping information.

Nobody has, and nobody will, see me using some sort of lame excuse to back up my opinions and experiences. So far nobody has even attempted to address the valid points I made.


----------



## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Sanford said:


> "That ain't traditional" seems to be more a hunter response/gripe around here. Same as the incessant "instinctive" argument. Target shooters put it to book. They don't need or want to have to repeat any argument.


Except for the fact that depending on which sactioning organization you're looking at, the definition can be substantially different. So apparently, even "target shooters" can't agree from one organization to the other. Honestly though, I'd rather spend my time shooting than arguing about how someone else chooses to label my equipment.


----------



## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Honestly though, I'd rather spend my time shooting than arguing...


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up ahh...now ain't that a breath of fresh air on a sunny day...speaking of which, my gear is calling. :shade: rick.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _So far nobody has even attempted to address the valid points I made._


Summarized, they are?


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

LBR said:


> The "that ain't traditional" argument doesn't hold water with me either. If someone is putting on a tournament, the get to set the rules and I respect that. If I don't like it, I have the option of either being an active member that gets to set the rules, or put on my own tournament.
> 
> I also am primarily a hunter, and accurate information is my goal in posting on a message board or anywhere else I'm swapping information.
> 
> Nobody has, and nobody will, see me using some sort of lame excuse to back up my opinions and experiences. So far nobody has even attempted to address the valid points I made.





I think I said the same thing. I dont think sights necessarily will make anyone a better shot. I like simple myself. But, I dont care to shoot self-bows, self-nocks, ect. I shoot instinctively because that's what I naturally went with or maybe because we had nobody around to coach us and give advice. My Dad, has always shot point-aim. If sights seem to help an individual, then that's a good thing. But like LBR said, whatever method you use ...you the shooter ,have to make the shot work. My Dad switched to 3-under after 28 years of shooting split, and it worked better for him.
I shoot off the shelf because that's what I like personally. My point I was trying to make earlier is that a lot of archers that have got into recurves and longbows in the last 20 years, dont know the history of modern archery...I dont mean that disrespectfully. Back in the early 80's a buddy of mine was shooting sights on an old Bear takedown [metal riser, or cast aluminum], and I tried it and it didn't fit me...or maybe I didn't try it long enough I dont remember. But, it worked for him and he was pretty accurate with the sights. Sights are not a cure-all but it may be the way to go for some archers. I am simple minded I guess..lol..I like it simple as I can get it.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Summarized, they are?


 I think there's a reason folks gravitated away from sights on traditional bows--fads only carry so many for so long, what works is what hangs around. 

Proper instruction is the key. One of the main reason compound bows are so popular, especially with beginners, is they do a lot of things for you. Mechanical rests, mechanical release, draw stops, adjustable draw weights, etc. etc. etc. Just adjust the sights, pull it back, place the pin, and squeeze. It's not nearly so simple with a traditional bow--adding sight pins won't make a shooter consistent, or steady, or have a good release.

The proper mechanics of good shooting remain the same with or without sights. 

The NASP (National Archery in Schools Program), in which children can start participating in at grade level 4, teaches them to shoot (from the beginning) with no sights. It's enjoyed HUGE success. The bows (Matthews Genises), although appearing to be compounds, have no let-off and no draw stops--they shoot like recurves.

If improved performance, improved accuracy, consistent accuracy, and extended ranges don't make shooting a bow easier, then what is the point? If it's not easier, what is it? Those are the same reasons for the invention of the compound bow, and the reasons they are so much more popular than tradtional gear--because they are easier.

Nationally recognized coaches and training programs, i.e. the NASP (National Archery in Schools Program) focus on form and consistency to obtain accuracy, as does what is considered by most to be the best instructional DVD on the market today (Masters of the Barebow, Volume III).

My simple point remains untouched: accurate shooting is founded on good instruction, good form, and practice. If you don't have these, your shooting will be mediocre at best--with or without sights. This is fact, along with the proven fact that sight pins, peeps, etc. aren't a requirement for the majority of traditional shooters to shoot accurately. 

Sights don't work miracles. They might help someone hit a target at 10 yds, or might not. Again, with or without sights, good shooting requires good instruction and practice. 

No "that ain't traditional" remarks from me, nothing concerning what might bleed over into competitive archery. I also had a bunch of questions that were ignored. I can list those too, if you want...but it will have to be later. I'm headed to a buddy's house to shoot a while.

Chad


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

I rest my case.:zip:


----------



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Please excuse me I if offend anyone; being primarily a bowhunter I have always considered instructions and advice that are based_ strictly and unwaveringly _on target shooting to be more aggravating and too commonly limiting (for bowhunters) than the "trad" rule thing, especially when the subject of the discussion is bowhunting related.
> 
> I consider it to be absurd to advise against or eliminate using certain equipment and methods that could benefit a person only because it ain't an "Oly" thing or some damn target shooting tournament won't allow it. The _"Lets, by any means available, force a non-use of certain hunting equipment for fear the use might creep into the target shooting community" _makes me want to hit myself in the head with a hammer.
> 
> Separate tournament (target shooting) classifications are very valid and I have absolutely no problem with that. But when the target shooting community and individual target shooters start campaigning against the use of particular methods and equipment by bowhunters, using strict target shooting arguments, demeaning titles, or some idiotic rule such as "That ain't traditional," that is where I draw the line.


I am really at a loss as to your point. Bowhunt with whatever you want that is legal means. That is your choice. Everyone has their way of shooting. If you simply bowhunt, and never compete then what in the world is the issue. Traditional tournaments do not need to have sighted classes. Traditional 3-D shoots are practice for hunting. They are specific for those without a sight. If you want to shoot a trad bow with a sight that is okay. If you want to compete there are organizations that will allow you to shoot that equipment. Most people want to learn how to shoot a bow without a sight attached to it in the recurve and longbow hunting archers. The idea of a point and shoot method in the hunting woods in which shots can be made in unorthodox and under the intensity of the moment, draws people to shooting without a sight for archery hunting. That is why at a traditional 3-D shoot you typically shoot shorter distance but from more simulated hunting conditions. You still cannot input the adrenaline rush that will come from taking live game with a bow. You only really know what will work when you do that. Shooting a traditonal bow in a manner that allows for a simplicity of thought works when you have to operate under the intensity of the moment. There are plenty of organizations that will allow you to shoot with a sighted recurve. There are those that will exclude you and, yes they will tell you they are traditional. Traditional in todays vocabulary is without a sight. There is a finger shooting section on this site that you can discuss shooting a sighted bow with fingers all day long and get lots of great info. Very few people in a traditional forum are going to be using sights that visit here. You say it is idiotic to say "that aint traditional", and yet you know exactly what they mean. The term traditional archery really did not exist until after the compound, really until it was defined as a class in competition. Traditional is a modern term used to define shooting recurves and longbows without sights. Most hunting archers that shoot recurves and longbows do it without a sight.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I don't like to engage in posting lengthy "quotes and rebuttals," but sometimes it is necessary, especially when someone is not satisfied with general answers or opposing answers and want each of their arguments specifically addressed, and to try and make it clearer to anyone that is still in the "decision" mode.

_



I think there's a reason folks gravitated away from sights on traditional bows--fads only carry so many for so long, what works is what hangs around.

Click to expand...

_
That is an inaccurate statement being that all "folks" did not gravitate away from using a sighting device on a recurve bow, and some "folks" have started using a sighting device on their recurve bow for the first time, and some are considering doing so. 



> _The proper mechanics of good shooting remain the same with or without sights. _


That's a given with any weapon that casts a projectile. But you keep maintaining that proper mechanics alone is all that is required to shoot accurately, and are ignoring the fact that some bow shooters are not skilled shooting instinctively and likely will never be, and some have difficulty using the "gap" method and may never be sufficiently skilled using the gap method. 

Disregard all the "it can be done only if, and it isn't necessary" and explain how a pin (sighting device) on a recurve bow is unnecessary for anyone. 



> _The NASP (National Archery in Schools Program), in which children can start participating in at grade level 4, teaches them to shoot (from the beginning) with no sights. It's enjoyed HUGE success. The bows (Matthews Genises), although appearing to be compounds, have no let-off and no draw stops--they shoot like recurves._


What does any of that have to do with the price of tea? These are kids shooting a kid's bow at targets on indoor or outdoor ranges. Are you saying that all these kids will be skillful shooters and all of them will be accurate shooters under all conditions, instinctively or gapping, always and forever?

PS: The Matthews Genises bow is a compound bow. Though it is of such a low peak draw-weight, the cams assist in the bending of the limbs.



> _If improved performance, improved accuracy, consistent accuracy, and extended ranges don't make shooting a bow easier, then what is the point? If it's not easier, what is it? Those are the same reasons for the invention of the compound bow, and the reasons they are so much more popular than traditional gear--because they are easier._


When I was an active US Marine my primary MOS was as an infantryman. I was also an intra-service competition rifleman. My infantry issue rifle was a "service grade" issue, my match rifle was a "National Match" setup. The basic differences with the match grade were certain components/ammo that improved the performance and the obtainable and more consistent accuracy. Not once did I ever consider that because I was shooting a "match" setup that anything was going to be _"easier." _



> _Nationally recognized coaches and training programs, i.e. the NASP (National Archery in Schools Program) focus on form and consistency to obtain accuracy, as does what is considered by most to be the best instructional DVD on the market today (Masters of the Barebow, Volume III).
> _


You are ignoring the fact that most that are new or have been struggling to learn to skillfully shoot a stickbow do not have access to coaches and training programs. Most are self-teaching via books, videos, and forums. Which, though better than nothing, the information overload may be as confusing as when they first started? 

Nevertheless; your comments are still that nobody needs a sight device if their form is righteous and they practice a lot. I assume you mean if they shoot instinctively or gap. I believe I have covered that more than once. However, holding to your premise; why do Oly shooters and most compound shooters use sights? Because the use of a sighting device makes things _easier_ for them?



> _My simple point remains untouched: accurate shooting is founded on good instruction, good form, and practice. If you don't have these, your shooting will be mediocre at best--with or without sights. This is fact, along with the proven fact that sight pins, peeps, etc. aren't a requirement for the majority of traditional shooters to shoot accurately.
> _


Repetitive. 

_



Sights don't work miracles. They might help someone hit a target at 10 yds, or might not. Again, with or without sights, good shooting requires good instruction and practice.

Click to expand...

_
Who said works sights work "miracles?" What is "might be helpful out to *10 yards*????" The rest is repetitive.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

To some...the word 'traditional' will have different meanings than how it is defined by others.

Here are some research materials that may help 

*Merriam-Webster definition of 'Tradition"* - a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable 
2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction 
3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions 
4: characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition> 
— tra·di·tion·al \-ˈdish-nəl, -ˈdi-shə-nəl\ adjective 

*NFAA Traditional Class*: This style of shooting is for those who wish to compete with the Recurve or Longbow. No device of any kind, including arrow rest, that can be used for sighting will be used or attached to the archer's equipment. There shall be no device, mechanical or otherwise, in the sight window except the arrow rest, arrow plate or plunger button. No part of the rest or arrow plate may extend more than 1/4 inch above the arrow. No clickers, drawchecks or levels will be allowed. No laminations, marks or blemishes on the face of the bow or in the sight window will be legal. The string may be of any color but must have a single color center serving. One single nocking point is permitted. One or two nock locators may be used. Brush buttons and string silencers, properly placed, may be used. Any other marks or string attachments will be illegal. One anchor point only is permitted. The archer shall touch the arrow when nocked and drawing the arrow with the index finger against the nock. Finger position may not be changed during competition. In the case of physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers. Gloves, tabs or fingers shall be the only legal releases. In the case of physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers. All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching with allowances for wear and tear. No stabilizer or counter balance may be used. No written memorandum will be allowed. Bow slings are permissible.

*ASA Traditional Class *- 280 FPS or less, Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams. No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12” in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point. No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference. All arrows must be identical in size, weight and construction.

*IBO Traditional Classes *- *Recurve Un-Aided (RU)* A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. No sighting device of any kind may be used. A rest and plunger are all that may reside within the sight window of the bow. A limb mounted draw check or clicker may be used. There shall be NO markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. All arrows shall be of the same material and be of uniform length and weight. String walking and face walking are permitted in the RU class. RU archers will shoot from the orange stake. 

*Longbow (LB)*A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:
1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow. 2. The riser should be cut no closer than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, however, if a riser is cut less than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, a pad may be added so that the arrow rests on a surface no closer than 1/8 inch outside the centerline of bow. 3. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. 4. A longbow may have a draw weight of up to 90 pounds (measured at the face edge of the bow at the arrow shelf at 28 inches draw).

*Traditional (TRD)*A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight.
Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue-on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1)

Ray :shade:


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Traditional (TRD)A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight.
Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue-on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long. *No stabilizers*, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1)


Uh oh, that knocks me out of that category.....I like my stabilizer.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> That is an inaccurate statement being that all "folks" did not gravitate away from using a sighting device on a recurve bow,...


If I had said "all folks", then it would be inaccurate--but that's not what I said. The majority of archers that are using traditional equipment, especially hunters, do not use sight pins. I believe the reason is simple--because most people can learn to shoot accurately, especially at reasonable hunting distances, without pins. I don't believe it's just a "fad", because fads don't last. I don't recall seeing anyone using pins on a recurve in at least 15 years, other than Olympic style shooters.



> But you keep maintaining that proper mechanics alone is all that is required to shoot accurately,...


I haven't said that even once. I have maintained that good instruction, good form, and practice is required. I stated the fact that the VERY sucessful NASP does not rely on sight pins, nor does what may be the best instructional video on the market today. Those facts speak to me much louder than any opinion to the contrary.



> ...and explain how a pin (sighting device) on a recurve bow is unnecessary for anyone.


I cannot explain something I've never said or implied. I simply said that sight pins are a hinderance to many, and it has been proven by national programs and expert coaches that most do not need pins to shoot accurately. 



> What does any of that have to do with the price of tea? These are kids shooting a kid's bow at targets on indoor or outdoor ranges. Are you saying that all these kids will be skillful shooters and all of them will be accurate shooters under all conditions, instinctively or gapping, always and forever?


It's a proven national program. It's a fact that kids all over the U.S. can and have learned to shoot accurately without pins. I said what I meant, no more and no less.



> PS: The Matthews Genises bow is a compound bow. Though it is of such a low peak draw-weight, the cams assist in the bending of the limbs.


It's a "compound" bow that shoots like a recurve. No let-off, no draw stops for individual draw lengths. For the purpose of this discussion, it's identical to a traditional bow.



> The basic differences with the match grade were certain components/ammo that improved the performance and the obtainable and more consistent accuracy. Not once did I ever consider that because I was shooting a "match" setup that anything was going to be "easier."


What is the point of using "certain components/ammo", which resulted in better performance and consistency, if not because it made accurate shooting easier? Maybe you didn't consider it, but that's what it does. A bird may not consider having feathers makes it easier for them to fly, but that doesn't change the fact that it does.

If you don't think sight pins makes it easier for you to shoot accurately, why do you use them? 



> You are ignoring the fact that most that are new or have been struggling to learn to skillfully shoot a stickbow do not have access to coaches and training programs.


No, I'm not. I was one of those people. Sight pins were the least of my problems when learning to shoot. Sight pins were a huge hinderance for me when I hunted with a compound bow. I explained that in a previous post, just as I said that sticking pins on a bow won't magically make someone shoot well, at least past 10-15 yds.



> ...your comments are still that nobody needs a sight device if their form is righteous and they practice a lot.


That's not what I said.



> ...why do Oly shooters and most compound shooters use sights? Because the use of a sighting device makes things easier for them?


For the same reason they use clickers, stabilizers, vanes, let-off, etc.--of course because it makes achieving their goal easier. If not, what's the point in using them?

I find it ironic that you said this to me:



> Either your reading comprehension is poor or you pray 5 times a day to the "Trad God," or both.


yet your entire argument is based on things I never said or implied. Oh well. The facts haven't changed.



> Who said works sights work "miracles?"


The implication is all you have to do is add sight pins to your bow and you'll be able to shoot well, period. That, in my opinion, would require a miracle.

One more time. Nationally proven programs, and nationally recognized expert coaches agree that information, foundation, and practice are the keys to being an accurate archer, *regardless of how you aim the arrow.* Repetition? Of course--because you keep brushing off that simple fact.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LBR:

Are you my wife, using an anon user ID to mess with me? Your evasive rebuttals and denials are so familiar.

Sorry, Martha! Not chauvinism; just factual. :smile:


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Your evasive rebuttals and denials are so familiar.


Lol--I'm the one being evasive just like I'm the one that has a problem with reading comprehension. If that's all you got, I guess this one is done. Obviously when you pit opinion against fact, fact will come out on top every time.


----------



## appalachianhunt (Feb 5, 2011)

traditional shooting like our ancestors did no sights i asked a man who has taught me everything i know about this hole sights on trad archery equipment and he simply said that is the stupidest thing ive ever heard that is not traditional archery that is traditional technology bows with a sight screwed on it


----------



## appalachianhunt (Feb 5, 2011)

trad archjery is a lifestyle not a type of archery there is so much more to this than just shootin a long bow the way i see it **** compounds


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _traditional shooting like our ancestors did no sights i asked a man who has taught me everything i know about this hole sights on trad archery equipment and he simply said that is the stupidest thing ive ever heard that is not traditional archery that is traditional technology bows with a sight screwed on it_





> _
> trad archjery is a lifestyle not a type of archery there is so much more to this than just shootin a long bow the way i see it ****** compounds_


And, unsurprising, there it is. I knew that eventually it would be clearly said.

The original discussion went from; if you want to try using a sight to determine if using a sight will benefit your accuracy, and only (you) can determine if it does, especially under hunting conditions, try it and do not let the faux trad thing or the trad police deter you, that the primary objective of bowhunting is to bag the game you are hunting, not to engage in some type of "reenactment" of some ritual from some unknown time in yesteryear. 

Not adhering strictly to some type of tradition does not ruin the flavor, nor, unless the rules of "Fair Chase" have been changed, are scoring points deducted if you drop a P&Y and you had a sight on your stickbow.

The sport of bowhunting has definitely changed...for the worse.


----------



## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

WindWalker said:


> I may be wrong, but I interpreted the statement to mean that with some shooters they have everything else pinned down but as is not uncommon, the person just cannot get the hang of shooting consistently accurately using the instinctive method, which not too many ever become proficient at regardless how much they practice, or ever become proficient at gapping or split-vision regardless how much they practice. In those cases, using a sight system just might be the ticket.
> 
> Without a sight I can shoot consistently good out to -/+ 30 yards, well enough that I will only shoot 3 arrow rounds to avoid damaging arrows. If I use my sights I only shoot singles at separate spots because I know my groups will tighten up considerably and I am not into Robin Hoods and sliders because I don't want to ruin good arrows.


Yeah, pretty much. However, anyone who is good at instinctive or gap is putting in time to be so. Sights help people compress the time needed to attain accuracy and precision. IMO.


----------



## need-a-bow (Aug 10, 2010)

I personally think that considering a stickbow with a sight un traditional to me is a total load of **** ****. As far as competitions I will just shoot in any class im put, whether Im allowed to use sights or have to remove them to stay legal


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Conversations and debates like this are why I do not use the term "traditional" to describe my participation in this hobby. I prefer "stickbow" or "recurve" shooter.

"Traditional" has such a broad and passionate definition that I stay completely away from it. I would point out that folks have been using sights on stickbows for over a half a century (and several decades before the compound was made available).

I'm a 3D target archer and bowhunter who happens to shoot a modern recurve without a sight. I'm not trying to replicate a certain time period or adhere to a "purist" tackle or technique setup in my approach. I do research the guidelines of the ASA and IBO equipment requirements to determine the optimal equipment configuration to be as competitive as my ability allows me to be. 

I'm just enjoying the hobby on my terms as it is a leisure time activity. My 2 cents worth...


----------



## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Try finding an old bow without holes from where a sight used to be. Is fiberglass traditional? Machined aluminum? 

I have a 45 year old wood and fiberglass bow that doesn't necessarily fit the PSAA definition of traditional, but a two-week old Hoyt Excel does. 
The NFAA or whoever started this mess could have picked a better term for recurves without sights, etc.


----------



## non-typical (Jul 5, 2002)

People should get off their high horse about not using sights on trad gear.I myself have been fortunate enough to be able to shoot sightless,but there a few that no matter how hard they practice they are not accurate enough to kill game cleanly! So tell them,instead of putting a sight on their trad gear go buy a compound? I see a few not so good shooters out their and I say wow,they hunt? Most of the time its because of crap on the PC that "you cant put sights on your bow" thats not traditional! BS


----------



## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

if those of you that really want to shoot traditional will lose the carbon and aluminum arrows, screw in mass produced points, the store bought bows/bow materials, and the high tech fiber strings I'll agree the sight should not be allowed in "traditional."


----------



## fuzzybear (Apr 8, 2011)

The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow.It is a measure of skill,a challenge.Its to relive before modern times,true trad shooters like me want nothing to do with modern equipment.Some of us will even make their own arrows and use stone points.That is the definition of trad.If you want to shoot with a sight thats fine,but its not trad shooting Trad stands for traditional, and a sight,let me tell you is not even close to traditional.


----------



## drbowhunter (Jun 23, 2005)

people should use whatever equipment they want to and tell others to mind their business. everyone is entitled to an opinion and to use what they like. if you dont like it, go and to the next thread. Im sick of all the damn whining on this site. There are a ton of people on here who need to take their moms tit out of their mouth and grow up


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow.It is a measure of skill,a challenge.Its to relive before modern times,true trad shooters like me want nothing to do with modern equipment.Some of us will even make their own arrows and use stone points.That is the definition of trad.If you want to shoot with a sight thats fine,but its not trad shooting Trad stands for traditional, and a sight,let me tell you is not even close to traditional._


What a bunch of "poppycock!" Sounds like a bunch of juvenile drivel; and has yanked my chain so hard it will take a bit to calm down in order not to use language that violates forum use rules. :angry7:


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

_The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow.It is a measure of skill,a challenge.Its to relive before modern times,true trad shooters like me want nothing to do with modern equipment.Some of us will even make their own arrows and use stone points.That is the definition of trad.If you want to shoot with a sight thats fine,but its not trad shooting Trad stands for traditional, and a sight,let me tell you is not even close to traditional_


Like I said before, some folks just dont know the history of archery.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow.It is a measure of skill,a challenge.Its to relive before modern times,true trad shooters like me want nothing to do with modern equipment.Some of us will even make their own arrows and use stone points.That is the definition of trad.If you want to shoot with a sight thats fine,but its not trad shooting Trad stands for traditional, and a sight,let me tell you is not even close to traditional._


On second thought; such crap is not worth the time to respond to in an intelligent and informative sense. If one is so out of the loop as to believe such bs, and to make and publicly display such ridiculous comments, it would be a waste of effort. Any discourse would be better spent debating with a fencepost. 

I will reply to _"The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow."_ Should read: "The thing about bowhunting; it's you, the bow and the arrow....and the quarry you intend to kill."


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Just a suggestion...to get all worked up over someone's opinion is not only unhealthy for you but it really is a waste of time. There should be nothing wrong with having disagreements but to get this upset over an archery issue when there are much more important things worthy of our emotions is just fruitless. Feel free to debate your opinion but just be careful how you choose to allow your emotions to get involved. Healthy debate is good. Try not to take disagreements personal, which I have to occassionally remind myself of also 

Ray :shade:


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

BLACK WOLF:

Yes, doc! :smile:


----------



## elk country rp (Sep 5, 2005)

the word "traditional" is useless in its subjectiveness. 

i "traditionally" don't tag out on opening day (boy, was i ever happy to stray from THAT tradition last fall!!)
traditions are started & ended every day- why not use more accurate, quantifiable terms & quit with the (nerdy) etymology arguments?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> BLACK WOLF:
> 
> Yes, doc! :smile:


It's because I care...now where do I send the bill? 

Ray :shade:


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

fuzzybear said:


> The thing about trad is its just you, the bow and the arrow.It is a measure of skill,a challenge.Its to relive before modern times,true trad shooters like me want nothing to do with modern equipment.Some of us will even make their own arrows and use stone points.That is the definition of trad.If you want to shoot with a sight thats fine,but its not trad shooting Trad stands for traditional, and a sight,let me tell you is not even close to traditional.


So I'm assuming you shoot with only wood arrows, linen strings and shelf-less bows made of wood then? Because all of the modern versions of those things were introduced AFTER the sight had already been well accepted in the bowhunting community.

What many folks seem to be confusing is traditional with primitive, there is a very clear distinction between the two. Unfortunately primitive is a much harder path to walk then Trad is, so most people can't hack it.

-Grant


----------



## drakesdad (Feb 12, 2011)

i think that sights on a recurve is rong and cheating!


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

drakesdad said:


> i think that sights on a recurve is rong and cheating!




I guess using carbon ,aluminum, arrows with a fiberglass laminated bow is wrong also. Oh, and factory made strings and a shelf cut into your bow.
All those things make it easier.
If the arrow hits where you want it to go....then that's what matters.


----------



## Kurt Blanken (Apr 12, 2011)

Everyone has their own personal philosophy of why they have chosen to go traditional.

Mine is that I shoot for the challenge of it and therefore the more traditional the better. I like to think in terms of what would have been possible for certain cultures, but also make plenty of room for convenience.

So how does this work out? Well carving a shelf onto the riser was technologically feasible, but "primitive" cultures never thought of it. Stone points would be great, but using the same arrow multiple times is also great so I think I will go with that instead, I would like my string to last longer, etc.

Why won't I use a sight? Feats of accuracy have been recorded of many "primitive" shooting styles (I am especially thinking of the Mongols) and although I will never reach that level I know it is possible.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

For those that want to try or use a sight on their bow, always or occasionally, check out these bows and the reasons some use sights. Notice the simplicity of most of the sights used. Old pin brackets.

LINK: http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=196415&messages=4&CATEGORY=5

LINK: http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=196537&messages=12&CATEGORY=9


----------



## appalachianhunt (Feb 5, 2011)

traditional archery is instinctive archery if you cant get your form down and need sights go ahead and use them but its not trad push pull point


----------



## Ft. Jefferson (Apr 11, 2011)

Trad to me means any bow that isn't a compound. Sights are not my thing but it's the bow that makes it trad for me.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _traditional archery is instinctive archery if you cant get your form down and need sights go ahead and use them but its not trad push pull point _


What can I say? I believe "misinformed" fits quite well.


----------



## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)




----------



## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

I've used the bow sight. Mostly because I needed to at the time. Curve1 understands, he knows the condition of my circumstances. Anyway, from what I've found out the use of even a simple sighting device goes along ways back. In his great book, the archers bible, Fred Bear makes a positive statment on the use of a bow sight, especially for beginers. If you can shoot with great accuracy without a sight, then I tip my hat to you! If you need the sight, use it. scout4<><


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

I dont see sights on them longbows but its hard to see in the photo. but even back then they did what they could to make it easier or perhaps by choice? I personally do not use a sight on the recurve but I cant say I wont ever try it just to see . I do not want to spoil myself while trying to master the art of instictive shooting. useing a sight would be detrimental in the learning phase . I will use the arrow as my sight for now


----------



## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

Hey airwolf! If you're sighting down the arrow then are you not using it the same as a sight to shoot with? Bow sight - arrow sight whats the difference? scout4<><


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

scout4 said:


> Hey airwolf! If you're sighting down the arrow then are you not using it the same as a sight to shoot with? Bow sight - arrow sight whats the difference? scout4<><


why not? the arrow is there anyways , why not help use for guide if thats the way you feel most comfortable with. besides sighting the arrow and useing a modern sight device are two totally different things and you realize that.


----------



## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

scout4 said:


> I've used the bow sight. Mostly because I needed to at the time. Curve1 understands, he knows the condition of my circumstances. Anyway, from what I've found out the use of even a simple sighting device goes along ways back. In his great book, the archers bible, Fred Bear makes a positive statment on the use of a bow sight, especially for beginers. If you can shoot with great accuracy without a sight, then I tip my hat to you! If you need the sight, use it. scout4<><


_'m likewise, use a sight at times, other times bare. Still trad in my book. This is an old argument._
Sighting devices have been around longer than most of us. Get over it. Use them if you want, or not. You still have to hold the weight, anchor, clean release.


----------



## Ft. Jefferson (Apr 11, 2011)

airwolf said:


> why not? the arrow is there anyways , why not help use for guide if thats the way you feel most comfortable with. besides sighting the arrow and useing a modern sight device are two totally different things and you realize that.


Not entirely different. Using the arrow to sight along is using it as a sight. You just shoot your sight in one instance and retain it in another. I call myself an instinctive archer but only for about 30 yards, then it's all referenced (sighted) off the arrow point for elevation and windage. I agree with scout4 - arrows are definately sights you happen to throw down range with the shot.

The biggest thing to hit trad archery in the last 20 years aside from carbon arrows is the acceptance and dominance of 3-under shooting style utilizing the arrow as a sight. Now the archer can really get a good look at his mark while peeking along the arrow which acts as not only a front sight but a rear sight too. The increase in scores over split-finger is very noticable to guys like me (or you older shooters) who have seen the change. It's all because of the "moveable" sight - the arrow.


----------



## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

Ft. Jefferson said:


> Not entirely different. Using the arrow to sight along is using it as a sight. You just shoot your sight in one instance and retain it in another. I call myself an instinctive archer but only for about 30 yards, then it's all referenced (sighted) off the arrow point for elevation and windage. I agree with scout4 - arrows are definately sights you happen to throw down range with the shot.
> 
> The biggest thing to hit trad archery in the last 20 years aside from carbon arrows is the acceptance and dominance of 3-under shooting style utilizing the arrow as a sight. Now the archer can really get a good look at his mark while peeking along the arrow which acts as not only a front sight but a rear sight too. The increase in scores over split-finger is very noticable to guys like me (or you older shooters) who have seen the change. It's all because of the "moveable" sight - the arrow.


yeah I guess if you wanna get technical about it we are still useing a sight in that aspect but i thought we were talking about a normal riser mounted bow sight. you cant argue theres a diference in the two.


----------



## Ft. Jefferson (Apr 11, 2011)

airwolf, there are guys shooting scores just as high in bullseye (300-450 round) today using 3-under as compared to sighted. The gap between mounted sights on recurves and gun-barrel 3-under is no longer any gap at all. They are in fact equal now. All because of using the arrow as a firm sighting device.

Same thing has happened in 3D. No split-finger shooter has won the IBO longbow title in many years. Once 3-under showed up, split was finished. Again, using the arrow sight.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Most barebow archers whether they are aiming Instinctively, using Gap or aiming with Point of Aim are using the arrow as an aiming device.

One of the differences is....the closer the aiming device can be placed on or near the target...the easier the aiming process becomes because it reduces the amount of error possible when comparing it to when the aiming device is placed further away from the target.

Ray :shade:


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Hmm... I wonder what the real issue here is. Because so far, I've yet to be able to shoot sights better than barebow (I'm equally terrible with both!) Both require discipline and skill when you're holding a hunting bow back and trying to get a nice clean release. Where's the outrage coming from? Where's the dismissal? 

Is it an advantage? Ft. Jefferson makes an excellent point about modifying your shooting style to eliminate any real advantage. Provided the bow is tuned, your subconscious will be able to remember trajectory fairly well, far better than a sighted bow could after a tumble from a tree stand. 

Sighting devices make for more sense as "traditional" than fiberglass, carbon, aluminum, Dacron, Fast Flight, epoxy, foam, rug rests, phenolic, or factory dyed feathers. Someone could walk into the woods and fabricate a simple sight (with sharp rocks if you were so inclined). Try doing the same thing with carbon or aluminum arrows, or that nice fiberglass laminated recurve...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> I've yet to be able to shoot sights better than barebow (I'm equally terrible with both!) Both require discipline and skill when you're holding a hunting bow back and trying to get a nice clean release.


Kegan, that's a key clue for you in understanding what you need to do to continue improving your accuracy.

I'm gonna let you think about that...and than get back to me or anyone else here about your thoughts as to 'what and why' that's a key factor in what you need to work on.

Ray :shade:


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

It is easy to misinterpret what a person writes vs. what a person actually meant. 

However, the part that caught my attention was that he...or someone.... is still trying to become a skilled shooter with a hunting-weight bow without yet having acquired good form ...release, and that you don't _TRY_ to get a good release. 

The release should be an unconscious event that occurs via back tension and relaxed hand. If you actually concentrate on your release, it will misdirect where your concentration should be and be mechanical. Hence, your aiming focus is blown and you will do all kinds of other nasty things.

BUT...as I said; did the Keg mean he is doing those things, or referring to someone else?


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Growing up here in Oz , back in the 70's and 80's ... it was pretty common to see 4 pin sights on recurves and we had our own Tournement criteria to shoot it as a seperate class . I'm a longbow shooter through and through , but still on occasion , fling arrows from my 'curve with sights . Why ? Coz its good fun .
Two different animals though and , as LBR says, without a good solid shot foundation , sights don't mean a thing . They are fun but don't make me a better shot ... only a miracle will do that ! lol .....


----------



## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

As a beginner, I found that using a sight tightened my groups - and has helped my instinctive shooting when I take the sight off, too!


----------



## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

Windwalker:

I've been around for a while. In fact, when I started shooting a Bear Grizzly, it was "modern" not "Traditional." As I recall at the time, the great improvements were (1) recurve - started about 500 years back by the Turks or Mongels and (2) modern glass backing. 

Anyway, today, one has a most difficult time defining what "traditional" really is! And, in the end, someone draws lines in the sand. ... Me? I'm not interested in all that. And, I only call myself "traditional" because there's not a much better word.

I have a new bow on order from Norm Johnson. The man makes works of art. But, when I imagine him making that bow, I imagine him wearing a respirator so that he doesn't breathe in too much of the artificial compounds that will cause his premature demise. So, I can't much say how much "traditional" he is, nor I am.

For these reasons, I seldom write on this subject. ... Except that, I put an old (35 year old) sight back on my bare bow the other day because I was strangely shooting high consistantly. Maybe it helped me. I think it did. I'm happy to know it's there if I need it so I don't wound game this fall. But, it's off my bow. And, I'm not sure just why. It just is. I don't seem to shoot any better nor any worse with the sight, but love shooting without the sight. Maybe it's the feeling of "majic" when I'm hitting dead on. Who knows?

So, anyway, I've enjoyed this thread. Have a good day. 

Bob


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray and WW- I'd become accustomed to "Archery ADD". Flinging for the sake of flinging. I taped a match stick to my bow and found even then I was very sloppy about holding it on target (I drew back and my brain just wanted to let it rip). After that I had been doing well to limit my shooting to "serious" shooting, holding steadier (and longer) and shooting for the mark not just to let it fly. I had been making some serious head way... until my bow tip cracked before we shot a 3D round up at the nearby club:zip:. So now I'm just trying to get a new self bow built while I wait for my sander to show up.

Anyway, back to the thread. My point was that whether you're aiming with the arrow, your subconscious, or an actual sight, there are still plenty of ways the archer can screw up the shot, and I offer myself up as exhibit A .


----------



## DiamondD (Apr 8, 2015)

"My simple point remains untouched: accurate shooting is founded on good instruction, good form, and practice. If you don't have these, your shooting will be mediocre at best--with or without sights. This is fact, along with the proven fact that sight pins, peeps, etc. aren't a requirement for the majority of traditional shooters to shoot accurately."

I think if that were true the majority of people would have no problem shooting in "Trad" divisions with others who shoot sights on their bows. Not to even mention that you can't string walk or shoot from a crawl or as has been mentioned earlier even shoot three fingers under in some of these competitions.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

WindWalker said:


> Exactly what is "trad shooting?"


According to the NFAA shooting with a sight is Freestyle Limited Recurve. Being how that is the sanctioning body for most of the shoots I go to I use their definition of Trad. Backyard heros feel free to do as you please.


----------



## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I find sights on a recurve or longbow to be perfectly acceptable to me.

I have a number of instructional archery videos demonstrating how one can make all sorts of marks on their riser, utilize natural marks on their riser, use marks on their tabs to walk the string, and use different anchor points to avoid using sights while essentially achieving almost the same accuracy of sights.

I can’t help to wonder whether it would not be less difficult and less silly to just simply use sights. I realize the rules of the competition sometimes dictate all this foolishness.

That said, I am having so much fun with a very simple clean bow that I am starting to view (just for me) an arrow shelf as an unnecessary complication to a simple clean bow. Real Trad don’t need no stinkin cheating arrow shelf – LOL.

In addition to arrows, of course, I have a longbow lacking an arrow shelf and handle wrap, simple straight grip, a string with a nock-set, and a tab. Nothing else!

Of course, I could likely actually produce non-embarrassingly huge groups should I use a sight – LOL. I still hope for acceptable groups “someday” with enough practice. The important thing is that I am having so much daily fun making the effort.


----------



## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I do have a nice self bow, but right now my “go to” longbow without an arrow shelf does have fiberglass on the back and belly. So, I guess it is not really Trad. But at least it is not one of those fancy modern takedown bow contraptions with all their complicated separate parts and stuff. It at least still looks like a real traditional bow – LOL.


----------



## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

I have no problems with those who wish to use sights on "trad" bows.

I have bigger problems with those who restart a FOUR YEAR OLD THREAD instead of starting a new one. 

Some of these posters are no longer here, others may have changed their viewpoints in that time.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

kegan said:


> Ray and WW- I'd become accustomed to "Archery ADD". Flinging for the sake of flinging. I taped a match stick to my bow and found even then I was very sloppy about holding it on target (I drew back and my brain just wanted to let it rip). After that I had been doing well to limit my shooting to "serious" shooting, holding steadier (and longer) and shooting for the mark not just to let it fly. I had been making some serious head way... until my bow tip cracked before we shot a 3D round up at the nearby club:zip:. So now I'm just trying to get a new self bow built while I wait for my sander to show up.
> 
> Anyway, back to the thread. My point was that whether you're aiming with the arrow, your subconscious, or an actual sight, there are still plenty of ways the archer can screw up the shot, and I offer myself up as exhibit A .


This is an old thread. My, how things can change in four years!


----------



## richmeister (Dec 13, 2015)

Its MY bow!!! If I want to hang a set of those big BULL TESTICLES like you see on big lifted trucks I WILL.
if ya doesn't like it bite it.


----------



## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

richmeister said:


> Its MY bow!!! If I want to hang a set of those big BULL TESTICLES like you see on big lifted trucks I WILL.
> if ya doesn't like it bite it.


 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. This gives me an opportunity to share my perspective of archery and would like to find out if anybody shares the same sentiment.

The reason I started doing archery is to experience and enjoy this thing which captivated my interest since I was a kid. I find the looks of traditional bows (especially the recurves) very elegant and beautiful. And learning to shoot a bow like this is the ultimate personal goal.

If ever my shooting accuracy develops into amazing levels, I will surely love to possess such a talent. But if I would have to "sacrifice" the looks to get the accuracy, that's where the enjoyment stops for me.

That is the reason I don't use sights, stabilizers, or anything that would diminish the beautiful looks of my bow. I even try to avoid "screaming" logos or glossy looks on ILF limbs. Risers with brightly colors? No way.

It's fine with me seeing other archers sporting their fancy-looking bows or even those that have wheels. I find them cool and eye-catching. It's a similar feeling when going to sporting events, full of banners and colors. But not on my own bow.

If accuracy becomes too important to me (and I want instant gratification), I would rather shoot with a crossbow instead of "accessorizing" my trad bow.


----------



## GarBear (Jan 4, 2020)

Whatever works for you technically and ethically is what really matters


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Lameduck, I think your sentiment is the probably the most prevalent in sheer numbers among those who shoot a single string bow, particularly in 'trad' cultural circles.

I share and differ on details, depending on the detail. I do not care what others choose, so long as their choices do not violate explicit rules previously agreed upon as a matter of hunting regulations or accepted rules of competition, be they NFAA or local club 'trad only' rules. If somebody is using a pin sight in a competition that prohibits a 'sighting device' that is obviously cheating.

Ultimately, it comes down to what the archer is trying to accomplish. I don't like the equivocation of using differing equipment as succumbing to 'instant gratification', as it kind of implies that there's some kind of lack of discipline, straying from a 'true' path. Maybe you just meant, for you, in which case I totally get that. Giving yourself something to learn, just to make yourself learn it, or because you prefer that, it can be a great training tool, in life in general.

We all make our own choices, and are free to do something different. Maybe they abandon and 'sacrifice' your version of beauty for their particular priority of function. They're obviously looking for something different than shooting a bow you (or I) find beautiful. 

I think that's fine. A lot of people would be embarrassed to shoot what I think is pretty cool. I understand completely 

But, when an archer comes to terms with their real goals, whether it is to hunt, or compete in any selected arena, or just fling arrows and spend time with friends, or shoot a bow they enjoy and find beautiful, and liberate themselves to do just that, honestly, without baggage of what 'should' be, I think that's a wonderful, empowering thing. You can even try stuff and decide you don't like it, and then know better why you like something else. All good.


----------



## Bisch (Sep 10, 2016)

I totally agree!!!!!!

Before compounds, there was no such thing as “traditional”. It was just archery!!!!!

Bisch 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## froo1173 (May 3, 2009)

Shoot what you want. Dont worry about it.


----------

