# Think You're Draw Length is Correct?...Check Again!



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Not in line? Which line are you considering? From the side or from overhead?


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

carlosii said:


> Not in line? Which line are you considering? From the side or from overhead?


Overhead. It's one of those things that is really tough to tell unless someone with a trained eye notices.


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

All very well to get the drawing arm elbow to align correclty, but how's you front shoulder positioned...they run hand in hand, so to speak.

One can take a particular drawlength and alter the set-up position of the shoulder to a point where the untrained eye might want to increase the drawlength by up to 2" to achieve the desired rear albow alignment.

The wingspan method of which you spoke is a hit and miss affair...There are so many variables to the correct set-up for individuals, the WS formula could have a + or - factor of 1-1/2" and that's rediculous .

If anyone is having issues with their drawlength, to save a lot of time money and frustration, find a reputable coach...it's the only way.

Cheers


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

aussiearcher said:


> All very well to get the drawing arm elbow to align correclty, but how's you front shoulder positioned...they run hand in hand, so to speak.
> 
> One can take a particular drawlength and alter the set-up position of the shoulder to a point where the untrained eye might want to increase the drawlength by up to 2" to achieve the desired rear albow alignment.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY! :thumbs_up


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

aussiearcher said:


> All very well to get the drawing arm elbow to align correclty, but how's you front shoulder positioned...they run hand in hand, so to speak.
> 
> One can take a particular drawlength and alter the set-up position of the shoulder to a point where the untrained eye might want to increase the drawlength by up to 2" to achieve the desired rear albow alignment.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm checking the bow arm shoulder as well as the drawing arm location. Thanks for adding that point. All form items are under scrutiny at this time. Larry Wise has an excellent article in Archery Focus magazine (Volume 11, Number 3, 2007) on body position. He shows some excellent over-head views of the proper bow/drawing arm location.

You reinforced my point on wingspan. It is hit or miss. :embara:


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## moecarama (May 17, 2005)

Hmmmmm interesting I have that edition:thumbs_up


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I told you 

Just kidding....but I know the feeling....:wink:

My draw has gotten longer recently as well...by a good bit I might add


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

I can shoot a slightly shorter length, but when I get even 1/4" too long, it's horrible. That's where I am now with the new grip on my bow. I might have to add some twists to the string to shorten it up or move the stop from 31" to 30.5' and retune the bow for 65% Letoff. I agree about needing a good coach! PSE has a good school in Arizona!!!!......anybody closer? I think I've become teachable.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Ode1891 said:


> I can shoot a slightly shorter length, but when I get even 1/4" too long, it's horrible. That's where I am now with the new grip on my bow. I might have to add some twists to the string to shorten it up or move the stop from 31" to 30.5' and retune the bow for 65% Letoff. I agree about needing a good coach! PSE has a good school in Arizona!!!!......anybody closer? I think I've become teachable.


You have GREAT ....not good....archers all around you:wink:


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

Ode1891 said:


> I agree about needing a good coach! PSE has a good school in Arizona!!!!......anybody closer? I think I've become teachable.


Depending on time of year...

I would be willing to hold a school if there were sufficient numbers to make it worthwhile.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

A local shop let me play with one of Bernie's laser tools. I found that by going from 28.5" to 28" made a world of difference. It let me go from staying in the gold most of the time with the laser to never leaving the gold at 1/2" shorter. I have found the same difference with my bow so I've stayed there for quite some time now. The wingspan method told me almost 29".

I guess you either need a good coach or you have to experiment a lot.


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

aussiearcher said:


> Depending on time of year...
> 
> I would be willing to hold a school if there were sufficient numbers to make it worthwhile.


How do you plan on running your "Online Coaching"? 

Barnsdale shooter, archery coach and only 5 hours from my house. :thumbs_up


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

supernova said:


> How do you plan on running your "Online Coaching"?
> 
> Barnsdale shooter, archery coach and only 5 hours from my house. :thumbs_up


I'm always available for "online coaching' if that's what you want.

In the past, I have been able to keep on top of those folk who have sort my help by reviewing their progress via video footage. I have some pretty neat software to study the footage.

If your interested, i'll explain what is the best material to send.

"In the flesh" is always better, why not plan a drive to the U.P. and visit.


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

aussiearcher said:


> I'm always available for "online coaching' if that's what you want.
> 
> In the past, I have been able to keep on top of those folk who have sort my help by reviewing their progress via video footage. I have some pretty neat software to study the footage.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the offer but I have a coach who's a little closer than you:wink: I was reading on your website about On-line coaching and found it interesting and was just wondering how you planned on doing it.


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

supernova said:


> Thanks for the offer but I have a coach who's a little closer than you:wink: I was reading on your website about On-line coaching and found it interesting and was just wondering how you planned on doing it.


Supernova, I got your PM and understand completely.

To answer your questions about the Online Coaching...

The "Online Coaching" is simply where you have video footage take at various angles. You send the file to me, to which I study it with a viewing program which allows me to get in your face, so to speak From there, I am then able to offer suggestions and keep track of your progress. The Skype phone is pretty handy to, I can use it to communicate instructions as well.

Where "one on one" would allow me to instruct you as we work together, the "Online Coaching" lacks some of the personal touch.

However, if you can't get to a coach, I'm sure the "virtual" version will be of some help.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I told you
> 
> Just kidding....but I know the feeling....:wink:
> 
> My draw has gotten longer recently as well...by a good bit I might add


Yes, I know and you were right. But, as you know I'm a little hard-headed. 

Let me make one thing clear. This issue of draw length was pointed out to me by a few of my fellow archers. I didn't make this discovery on my own. One happens to have a number of National Championships to his credit. None of these archers would steer me wrong and its almost impossible to detect on your own.

As far as utilizing a coach, that's a bit of a challenge. The archer who as agreed to work with me is a few hours away. Unfortunately, travel for work has made it tough for me to get some of his quality time at this point. Hopefully, in the very near future that will change.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

I am pretty sure mine is correct. 

It is funny when people ask you for help and you tell them there draw is too long or short, they won't change it. Shortening the draw length seems to be the thing most people are unwilling to do for some reason. Yet, they want to get better. I don't get it.


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## meesier42 (Feb 14, 2007)

The Swami said:


> I am pretty sure mine is correct.
> 
> It is funny when people ask you for help and you tell them there draw is too long or short, they won't change it. Shortening the draw length seems to be the thing most people are unwilling to do for some reason. Yet, they want to get better. I don't get it.


I know a guy like this, he firmly believes that his form and anchor are perfect cause the 17y/o at BassPro told him that was the right D/L. meanwhile he can't group at anything beyond 20 yards consistently and his bow is eating biscuits for breakfast. So he decided to replace the whiskerbiscuit with a dropaway and thinks that will fix his consistency problems, without fixing his form and bow setup, oh well, eventually he'll learn.

I, for one think my compound may actually be a little short, as I am now shooting trad and consistently pull to that to 29-29.5. With my compound set at 29" I could probably go longer and get some more speed. But the bow is so comfortable and stable where it is I am not changing a thing.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

The Swami said:


> I am pretty sure mine is correct.
> 
> It is funny when people ask you for help and you tell them there draw is too long or short, they won't change it. Shortening the draw length seems to be the thing most people are unwilling to do for some reason. Yet, they want to get better. I don't get it.


Most of the concerns about draw length center on the 'too long' scenario. I would imagine that is the problem with the majority of archers. In my case, it was the opposite. Believe you me, it wasn't what I expected to discover when analyzing my shooting form. :embara: 

One person in particular kept pinging on me about this issue...saying there was *NO WAY* I should be at 27". He happens to be the moderator of this forum! :wink:


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

mdbowhunter said:


> Most of the concerns about draw length center on the 'too long' scenario. I would imagine that is the problem with the majority of archers. In my case, it was the opposite. Believe you me, it wasn't what I expected to discover when analyzing my shooting form. :embara:
> 
> One person in particular kept pinging on me about this issue...saying there was *NO WAY* I should be at 27". He happens to be the moderator of this forum! :wink:


I am a 27. I am 5'10. You got good coaches in your area. You should be utilizing them.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

The Swami said:


> I am a 27. I am 5'10. You got good coaches in your area. You should be utilizing them.



How are you measuring....are you going from the grip to the string to get 27" or adding the 1 3/4" to get it.....

You are taller then I am (as you already knew ) but yours shoulders are more narrow then mine and your arms are shorter.....


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> How are you measuring....are you going from the grip to the string to get 27" or adding the 1 3/4" to get it.....
> 
> You are taller then I am (as you already knew ) but yours shoulders are more narrow then mine and your arms are shorter.....


I am adding 1.75 inches to my true draw to get that figure. Most people get confused when stating your true draw. Mine is 25.25".

Yes, there is no cookie cutter way determine your draw length. That is why I posted a picture with my height and draw.

My wingspan is 70 inches I think. My shoulders are not as wide as some. People are built in many different ways so there isn't a method that works for all to give you your exact draw length.

The cookie cutter methods of determining your draw length are just to get you within an inch or so. It isn't gospel.

Determining your ideal draw length will take some time. But it is worth doing.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2008)

I had the same questions concerning draw length.....I finally got to me the Legend Dee Wilde...and he told me to lengthen out...so I did! 

Back to shooting good and being much more consistant...

shooting the same draw that I shot when I first started archery.....then I started listening to the wrong crowd....

get a good coach/ successfull pro.....they will steer you in the right path...


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

The Swami said:


> I am adding 1.75 inches to my true draw to get that figure. Most people get confused when stating your true draw. Mine is 25.25".
> 
> Yes, there is no cookie cutter way determine your draw length. That is why I posted a picture with my height and draw.
> 
> ...



Yep...I was just trying to figure out which way you where getting to 27".

But like you said...everyone is built different.:wink:

Spec and I are the same height give or take 1/4"....I look like a folded up lawn chair trying to shoot his bows.:embara:


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Yep...I was just trying to figure out which way you where getting to 27".
> 
> But like you said...everyone is built different.:wink:
> 
> Spec and I are the same height give or take 1/4"....I look like a folded up lawn chair trying to shoot his bows.:embara:


I am also about 5'10 (on the shorter side of it) and my DL is 28"

I also shoot with an open stance and have pretty wide shoulders however. I could shorten it by 1/4" and might be a bit better when tired, but doggone it, even though everyone says it is too long I am comfortable and relaxed at full draw with both shoulders down and my 6x scope simply doesn't float around the gold anymore, it just stays steady.

I'm excited to see what next indoor season brings when my shoulder is healed up all the way.

-Andrew


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

Jerry...How does it feel? Are you more comfortable? Are you aiming steadier?


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> Jerry...How does it feel? Are you more comfortable? Are you aiming steadier?


It feels much better. I haven't had a chance to shoot it outside my basement so I'm not sure about aiming. Getting either the Stan or an Evolution to fire is smoother now since I can effectively use my back muscles. 

I appreciate the help and advice from you, Ed and Sean. Like I said in a previous response, I NEVER would have suspected my draw was too short. You just don't know until someone points it out.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Mike you should have seen Jerry try and shoot that Evolution. I was getting tired watching him draw than let down. He is starting to look like Popeye on one arm.:wink:
Jerry I think you are living on the edge. I mean first it was the Hoyt issue and now the Longer draw...What next eating the crust on your peanut butter and jelly sandwich..:zip:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Mike you should have seen Jerry try and shoot that Evolution. I was getting tired watching him draw than let down. He is starting to look like Popeye on one arm.:wink:
> Jerry I think you are living on the edge. I mean first it was the Hoyt issue and now the Longer draw...What next eating the crust on your peanut butter and jelly sandwich..:zip:


I'm *STILL* worn out from that thing. Told Hornet that was too much like work. 

The new draw length feels good and everyone tells me I don't look 'all crunched up' anymore. Thanks for the help. As I told Mike, you just don't know until someone points it out. 

Still struggling to find a comfortable and consistent anchor point. But, when you've increased your draw by 1.5"  I guess that is to be expected. The Morrel bag in my basement is gonna get a work-out. :wink:

Oh, can't stand PBJ. But, I do eat the crust on my sandwich...and I have the waistline to prove it!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> It feels much better. I haven't had a chance to shoot it outside my basement so I'm not sure about aiming. Getting either the Stan or an Evolution to fire is smoother now since I can effectively use my back muscles.
> 
> I appreciate the help and advice from you, Ed and Sean. Like I said in a previous response, I NEVER would have suspected my draw was too short. You just don't know until someone points it out.


That is the curse of Bernie and his everyones draw is 2" to short....he got me about 7 years ago...:embara:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> That is the curse of Bernie and his everyones draw is 2" to short....he got me about 7 years ago...:embara:


So why hasn't somebody de-bunked this calculation? 

I smell another debate coming on...like Has Been blowing the 'walk back tuning' thing out of the water.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> So why hasn't somebody de-bunked this calculation?
> 
> I smell another debate coming on...like Has Been blowing the 'walk back tuning' thing out of the water.


They have tried......

and Has Been is correct.....:wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Many reasons, not the least of which is you will nowhere arguing with Bernie but probably more importantly in this issue he is right more often than not. 

As for walk-back tuning I saw no debunking, the process is proven and used by more than a few of the top shooters in the world in one version or another.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Many reasons, not the least of which is you will nowhere arguing with Bernie but probably more importantly in this issue he is right more often than not.
> 
> As for walk-back tuning I saw no debunking, the process is proven and used by more than a few of the top shooters in the world in one version or another.


There are about as many people that have been helped as there are as many that have been messed up.....not saying that is Bernies fault completly though :wink:

WB tuning can work if done correctly on ALL fronts....but majority of the people that swear by it NOW aren't doing it correctly...they never sight there bow in to begin with....and are moving their rest to match their sight.:embara:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Failure to properly use a process does not make the process faulty, only the user...

Draw length is a product of many variables and is too complex to diagnose via a photo or by reading a book. But even if one is properly fitted, subtle changes in stance, weight gain or loss, muscle development not to mention equipment changes can alter proper fit. I agree that some archers for whatever reason have shortened their draw too much, but in general I have to agree that most are too long.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Failure to properly use a process does not make the process faulty, only the user...
> 
> Draw length is a product of many variables and is too complex to diagnose via a photo or by reading a book. But even if one is properly fitted, subtle changes in stance, weight gain or loss, muscle development not to mention equipment changes can alter proper fit. I agree that some archers for whatever reason have shortened their draw too much, but in general I have to agree that most are too long.


That is true....there are a TON of faulty users:wink:

Weight gain....yeah my draw, stance, feel at full draw are all out of whack:embara:

Damn beer and burgers:wink:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Many reasons, not the least of which is you will nowhere arguing with Bernie but probably more importantly in this issue he is right more often than not.


Agreed. But, determing the correct draw length involves more than just measuring one's 'wing span'. There are too many other factors to consider. Being an Engineer and relying on calculations to do my job, I considered this method proven and accurate. In my case, it didn't work. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but it proves the method isn't fool proof...like so many other things in this sport. :wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

mdbowhunter said:


> Agreed. But, determing the correct draw length involves more than just measuring one's 'wing span'. There are too many other factors to consider. Being an Engineer and relying on calculations to do my job, I considered this method proven and accurate. In my case, it didn't work. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but it proves the method isn't fool proof...like so many other things in this sport. :wink:


As an engineer myself I understand, but those charts were developed for long bows and recurves....:wink: not compounds with hard walls... Maybe there needs to be a disclaimer....:tongue:


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> There are about as many people that have been helped as there are as many that have been messed up.....not saying that is Bernies fault completly though :wink:
> 
> WB tuning can work if done correctly on ALL fronts....but majority of the people that swear by it NOW aren't doing it correctly...they never sight there bow in to begin with....and are moving their rest to match their sight.:embara:


Oh I have done that!!! I sighted my bow first out of fear of messing up an arrow. A few on AT got me straight :wink: That was a frustrating experience. :embara:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

JAVI said:


> As an engineer myself I understand, but those charts were developed for long bows and recurves....:wink: not compounds with hard walls... Maybe there needs to be a disclaimer....:tongue:


Interesting. I didn't know it was developed for long bows and recurves. 

Disclaimer? How about a simple warning...'Beware, these results are subject to change!'


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

mdbowhunter said:


> Interesting. I didn't know it was developed for long bows and recurves.
> 
> Disclaimer? How about a simple warning...'Beware, these results are subject to change!'


Still probably better than putting a yardstick in the middle of your chest and measuring how far your fingertips will reach... that was another way used once upon a time...:wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Interesting. I didn't know it was developed for long bows and recurves.
> 
> Disclaimer? How about a simple warning...'Beware, these results are subject to change!'


I like the use of a little pracitcal knowledge....and realize that things are not set in stone.....and not everyone is built the same...just because both of our wingspans measure say 72" doesn't mean that we will both have the same draw....:wink:

Kind of like AtoA's and brace heights:wink:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Still probably better than putting a yardstick in the middle of your chest and measuring how far your fingertips will reach... that was another way used once upon a time...:wink:


Oh yeah, I remember that one.  That's a blast from the past. :wink:

Actually, what I used years ago, and it worked this time too...stand straight...make a fist with your bow arm and place flat against a wall...and measure to the corner of your mouth. Hornet reminded me of this method. Crude, but for me it worked.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Jerry I am still trying to get this longer draw length to work for me. Shot better last night with a 54X night but I think I can do better. Heck with the shorter DL I was shooting 56/57X consistantly. Hopefully I can get this thing in time for L'ville.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Jerry I am still trying to get this longer draw length to work for me. Shot better last night with a 54X night but I think I can do better. Heck with the shorter DL I was shooting 56/57X consistantly. Hopefully I can get this thing in time for L'ville.


and that is why I am not going this year......no point throwing myself to the wolves when I am working on stuff

Time to get it all right so I am not struggling during field also


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Jerry I am still trying to get this longer draw length to work for me. Shot better last night with a 54X night but I think I can do better. Heck with the shorter DL I was shooting 56/57X consistantly. Hopefully I can get this thing in time for L'ville.


Maybe you've gone too far. But, I understand your frustration. Sometimes last night my anchor felt great and I could see through the peep fine. Other times... For me it's gonna take practice and some experimenting. I wanted to shoot the State Indoors but like Hornet said, ain't gonna throw myself to the wolves. I already did that at LAS in January!


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

THIS STUPID SPORT When I thought I had it under control BAM I screw up. Then when I start to think maybe it is time to stop this experiment then BAM everything works. Tonight I shot 100 w/ 15 X's on 1st game , 99 with 13x's on the 2nd game then BAM 100 with 20 X's 3rd game with 17 I/O and 10 I/O on the last 2 ends. My peanut brain cannot compute.AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH :frusty::yield:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> THIS STUPID SPORT When I thought I had it under control BAM I screw up. Then when I start to think maybe it is time to stop this experiment then BAM everything works. Tonight I shot 100 w/ 15 X's on 1st game , 99 with 13x's on the 2nd game then BAM 100 with 20 X's 3rd game with 17 I/O and 10 I/O on the last 2 ends. My peanut brain cannot compute.AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH :frusty::yield:


Yep, it'll drive ya crazy. ukey: 

Moved the peep up slightly and my anchor feels more consitent and comfortable now. I may need to extend my string loop slightly to minimize contact with my nose. I'll find out for sure Thursday night. :tongue:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> THIS STUPID SPORT When I thought I had it under control BAM I screw up. Then when I start to think maybe it is time to stop this experiment then BAM everything works. Tonight I shot 100 w/ 15 X's on 1st game , 99 with 13x's on the 2nd game then BAM 100 with 20 X's 3rd game with 17 I/O and 10 I/O on the last 2 ends. My peanut brain cannot compute.AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH :frusty::yield:


 I did watch your last couple of ends last night.. looked like you were back in form... now.. readjust that draw length... :chortle: :thumb: :tea:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

IGluIt4U said:


> I did watch your last couple of ends last night.. looked like you were back in form... now.. readjust that draw length... :chortle: :thumb: :tea:


Me believes that you are mocking me.......:bartstush: Did you ever fix my post???


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> Me believes that you are mocking me.......:bartstush: Did you ever fix my post???


No, I'm not, and yes, I did.. .:wink:

Just don't want to see ya losing the wall in the 'ville.. :lol: :wink: :thumb:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Hey Sticky I reposted that ******* artist thread that you guys inadvertently removed. Ed


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> Hey Sticky I reposted that ******* artist thread that you guys inadvertently removed. Ed


Cool.. it was actually moved to Mutantville, not removed, but it was cool and can be in both.. :wink: :thumb: :cheers:


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