# How can you tell a $600 pair of limbs from a $120 pair?



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> Is their a shocking difference that would warrant the extra money or is their little to NO difference? Maybe just name or longevity of limbs?


This is JMHO but the way I see it?...most recurve archers can't tell a difference...but the bow can and does...and what I mean by that is this...

You take an archer who is trying to paper tune his bow with some inexpensive glass/wood recurve limbs?...and that's a recipe for a deluxe case of aggravation and the reason why is because of the "Instability" of the economy priced glass/wood recurve limbs as the limb tips are very easily torqued and the lower the poundage?....the more amplified this inherent inconsistency becomes...next thing you know?...he's gone through several dozen different arrow spines and configurations searching for that clean hole through paper that always seems to come and go at best and took many tuning sessions to get there and still isn't at a happy place...next thing he knows?...the paper gets crumpled up and bare shafting becomes "Good Enough & Close Enough" as he tromps off to the nearest PC to post how "Paper Tuning" is a crock and didn't work for him.

Now on the flip side?...

You have the archer who spends what his arrow too arrow shot executions are worth on some expensive and "Torsionally Rigid" limbs such as my TR-7's where the TR stands for "Tortionally Rigid" or other high end extreme stability limbs where the limb tips are so stable (due to the cost added composite of layers of CF) that they refuse to noodle and follow a much straighter path of travel far more consistently....and this is where the archer will experience clean holes through paper with a minimum of tuning effort hence more consistent groupings.

One other difference some wiull be able to recognize but others not so much?...is if this rig is in the hands of a serious archer who practices every day and has developed a feel for such things?...with glass/wood econo limbs he will experience a somewhat vague feeling of the bow pressuring into his bow hand...rotationally....where with the more expensive and rigid composite limbs?...he will feel the grip pressuring directly and squarely into his bow hand throughout the draw cycle and enhance his ability to sense proper alignment with the bow in a more acute fashion. 

Neither one is for everybody...some want to win while others just want to play....and yet others just find joy and appreciation in owning and shooting a cutting edge rig...like me. 

Does that help?...or just muddy things up! :laugh:

Hope it helped and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## davidflorida (Jun 21, 2012)

I finally found out what hand shock felt like , going to take a while but every little bit helps . Trying to keep it simple and let my practice sort things out . Like vipers book says no need to go crazy trying to tune it when ya really just need to practice on your form . One day i hope to b able to feel the difference in a nice set up but that is down the road a ways and a few more arrows to launch.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Yes and no. Some archers can and some can't. Some limbs are easy to feel a difference from the very beginning and others take some analysis.

Ultimately the feel may not actually indicate how well they shoot, only comparative score can do that.

An $80 set of Axioms seem to work just as well as limbs costing $200, but spend $300-350 and you can get a set which clearly outperform them. Double that though and things may not be so clear.
Personally I haven't ever shot a Samick limb I like, others rave about them.

-Grant


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm beginning to get the picture.....If I'm correct, those that have skill, knowledge and good form could right off know the difference.....If your skills are not nurtured enough however, then a person could not really take advantage of the higher expense of quality limbs by knowing right away the feel and difference....Am I close to correct of that?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> I'm beginning to get the picture.....If I'm correct, those that have skill, knowledge and good form could right off know the difference.....If your skills are not nurtured enough however, then a person could not really take advantage of the higher expense of quality limbs by knowing right away the feel and difference....Am I close to correct of that?


I think the best way to answer that is with a question to you Rem...

Imagine if the barrel on your .50cal Sharps actually measured out as a .51 caliber smooth bore...would the beginner notice a difference?...or just print targets like a beginner for a real long time until someone with more experience told them better? :laugh:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> I think the best way to answer that is with a question to you Rem...
> 
> Imagine if the barrel on your .50cal Sharps actually measured out as a .51 caliber smooth bore...would the beginner notice a difference?...or just print targets like a beginner for a real long time until someone with more experience told them better? :laugh:


Hey Jinkster, your talking about me now......I do resemble that! LOL


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

rembrandt said:


> I'm beginning to get the picture.....If I'm correct, those that have skill, knowledge and good form could right off know the difference.....If your skills are not nurtured enough however, then a person could not really take advantage of the higher expense of quality limbs by knowing right away the feel and difference....Am I close to correct of that?


You, or I might feel the difference, but can we capitalize on the difference? This is where the skill part comes in.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Good post Grant. 

I've got $80 limbs and $600 limbs. Almost anyone that has shot a trad bow more than a few times can tell the difference between those two....but when you go up the scale the improvements are much more subtle. I think its like most things- the $80 limbs shoot great...and are fine....UNTIL...... you try the expensive limbs, or the 12 yr old bourbon...or the $40 bottle of Red....then you are wrecked for the cheap stuff.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

So, I offer this without reading all the posts prior,

From my testing I can see the difference. Much of the difference is materials that make limbs lighter and more efficient. In general, higher cost limbs are faster than lower cost limbs because they use more carbon and less glass. There are low cost carbon limbs but it only takes one layer to label a limb carbon. Also, maintaining torsional stability while keeping limbs light and efficient takes higher cost materials, i.e. cross weave carbon. You can get some really inexpensive limbs that you can score very well with, or hunt effectively with, but you can get faster, more efficient and lighter limbs for a higher cost.

As far as capitalizing on the cost, it depends on what you are trying to do. I see a lot of folks with cheap limbs shooting 20 yards, including me. I have shot cheap, slow, Hoyt glass limbs indoors and they are fine. When I shoot FITA, or other longer distance shoots, I need a limb that will give me the sight points I need, at a draw weight that I can execute consistently with. That takes a much better limb.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

I think the make up of the limb has a lot to do with the actual feel of the draw and a persons preference of one limb over another. I have only shot a few types of limbs but each one has a different feel as I pull into my anchor. A less expensive set like my SF carbon plus are a glass wood carbon composite are very soft from start to finish and their reaction after the shot has a bit of vibration to it, and shot to shot consistency varies a bit even with good form especially at longer distances, they are a bit slower at the same poundage also. My set of Winex limbs however are smooth at the start but tend to set up a bit quicker at my draw length and the shot reaction is completely dead in the hand. They are a carbon foam limb and they are also very consistent at all ranges. Carbon wood limbs have a different feel also. They seem to be a bit smoother throughout the draw and not set up quite as hard at my final draw. Personally I would get a set of inexpensive but quality limbs until I got my form and point on where I wanted it then invest in a higher end limb. Maybe you could find some people that would let you shoot theirs just to feel the difference. My son swears by carbon over maple limbs , my self I like carbon foam. I know my Winex limbs are worth at least 20 points on a 28 target NFAA field round over the less expensive carbon plus limbs just due to their consistency.
Guess I should have mentioned I shoot non sight traditional recurve.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think it depends on a lot of variables, including the shooter.

I believe you can have very expensive limbs that aren't really better than some moderately priced ones.

I believe that some limbs may feel better to one shooter than others, though the performance in either efficiency, speed, or accuracy, whatever may not line up with the preference.

I believe that a lot of people believe things for reasons other than the reality of the product itself.

I believe that the best results, at the end, are the sum of all parts, and that quantifying those results may require different methods for different people. I've seen people absolutely in love with bows that don't do anything for me, but obviously work for them just peachy.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

_*"How can you tell a $600 pair of limbs from a $120 pair?"*_

The 600.00 pair will cost 480.00 more than the 120.00 pair. 

Less than 5% of the people could actually distinguish a measurable difference at the target end of the equation. Of the 5% that actually could, it would only make a difference while shooting against others in the 5%. If you are in the 5%, you would still outshoot the other 95% no matter what limbs you or they were shooting. The difference between the 95% and the 5% has very little, if anything to do with the cost of their limbs. 

A 600.00 limb might be 5% faster than a 120.00 limb. I say *"might"* because there are 120.00 limbs that are actually closer in raw speed to the 600.00 limb than that.

All the rest is subjective and a matter of personal preference, marketing, and hype.

KPC


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Good stuff above but what happens in the mid-range priced limbs, say $300 limbs? Is the quality there lean toward the $600 limbs or the $80 limbs.? And, having said that, are they worth the cost and, overall, do you get what you pay for?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

When it comes to conventional limbs it is very difficult 

Smoothness and the way they pick up weight is for me the quickest clue but there are some inexpensive limbs that do both very nicely 

I think many would find it very difficult to draw different conventional limbs and be able to pick out the more expensive ones on feel alone 

Cast and speed should none better but you asked about feel and even those qualities will be subjective .... Again there are some very good inexpensive conventional limbs out there 

Now when it comes to the Super recurve limbs like the Hex 7 the feel is unmistakable 

You will know immediately that there is something different 

They have a very unconventional feel


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I am seriously looking at the SF Forged riser and adding the Axiom limbs. Is this a good choice or can I buy better with what money I have to spend on both? I will, of course get the 25" riser and long limbs for targets......I don't hunt anymore except at the meat market or at the Pig or Wally World.......


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Now when it comes to the Super recurve limbs like the Hex 7 the feel is unmistakable
> 
> You will know immediately that there is something different
> 
> They have a very unconventional feel


This is very true, however the result of that *"feel"* would still fall under the *"subjective"* heading in my opinion. It is very real and yes, the reduction in the rate of weight increase later in the draw can be measured. Some archers like that feel, others do not. But what does it mean in terms of performance, scores, or animals killed?

It's a little like saying that there is a definite difference between a red riser and a black riser. It is also noticeable and unmistakable. With specialized equipment, it is even measurable in terms of hue, density, radiance, reflectance, and temperature. However, while we can attach a value to all those things, what do they actually mean in terms of bulls eyes hit, animals killed, or tournaments won? Not all things that can be measured are important or even relevant to a given outcome. 

So the question remains. While the difference might be very obvious, and while the difference might be measurable, and while some people might even like one a lot more than another, is a red riser worth 480.00 more than a black riser? 

KPC


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

I would like to add that speed is not the absolute measure of a higher quality limb. Yes there are a lot of very fast inexpensive limbs but I see the true measure of a quality limb is it's ability to have a better shot to shot consistency and it's ability to be less sensitive to small form mistakes. This will create a tighter overall group and higher scores for the target archer and a more confident shot for the hunter.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> This is very true, however the result of that *"feel"* would still fall under the *"subjective"* heading in my opinion. It is very real and yes, the reduction in the rate of weight increase later in the draw can be measured. Some archers like that feel, others do not. But what does it mean in terms of performance, scores, or animals killed?
> 
> It's a little like saying that there is a definite difference between a red riser and a black riser. It is also noticeable and unmistakable. With specialized equipment, it is even measurable in terms of hue, density, radiance, reflectance, and temperature. However, while we can attach a value to all those things, what do they actually mean in terms of bulls eyes hit, animals killed, or tournaments won? Not all things that can be measured are important or even relevant to a given outcome.
> 
> ...


All very true 

But the OP asked can you tell the difference and I still maintain that there is only one limb that if I handed it to a blind folded archer that they could feel a difference .... I never said it was better or worse but you can definitely feel what you are spending 600 dollars on  

It is that different


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

I think the difference is best noticed by shooters who stick to 1 shooting style and setup and practice seriously with set goals in mind.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I have owned several sets of TradTech BackMax limbs. Base wood cores. wood/carbon, and the Carbon Extremes. Each is very nice and you won't know the difference until you shoot the next step up. So far as speed, I shot a set of wood/carbons and CE limbs side by side, adjusted for same poundage, same arrow, same riser, my shooting. The CE limbs shot 8 fps faster.
I find there is a difference in feel of the draw, and particularly after the shot. Some prefer the carbon, some like the wood cores. A friend has a set of the Extreme BF limbs ($650) and I shot them but failed to notice a difference between them and my $400 Carbon Extremes.
If shooting a TradTech limb, I am sold on the Carbon Extremes.
I also have a set of 42# Border Hex 6 BB2 limbs. They are a different animal. They load poundage earlier in the draw while the last couple of inches only load 1 1/2# per inch. Some folks really like that while others prefer to hit more of a wall as they anchor. I swap back and forth between them and my 52# Carbon Extremes


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Actually JP, I don't mean to be a nitpicker here, but I think it's important. 

The OP actually asked:

*"Is their a shocking difference that would warrant the extra money..."*

Therein lies the crux of the entire discussion. Yes, there is a noticeable difference. Yes, the difference is measurable. Yes, some people like the difference. However, the same things apply to red vs black risers. What is it *about* the difference that warrants a difference of 480.00 or more...sometimes much more? 

What is *"it"* at the target end, or the critter end, that actually *"warrants"* the difference to anyone other than maybe 3 or 4 out of hundred archers or hunters?

Some women will pay thousands to have their lips or breasts enhanced. Some men will pay thousands to keep or put hair on their heads. These things can surely be measured, and some people really like them, and some people will insist they are worth the cost, but they still don't have anything to do with improving the function for which they were designed.

It's all subjective.

:wink:

KPC


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

rembrandt,
Like that Sharps vs an Italian import.....


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

LOL

This: 

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_63/rifles-1874-sharps-rifle.html

VS this:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/rifles.php ????

A difference in cost, appearance and maybe quality ... but not so much in accuracy. Does knowing that the parts of your Sharps fit on an original really make you a better shooter?

Do your high priced limbs really make you a better archer ??? THAT is the question ... and as said above, the answer for the majority on this forum is NO.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

In my opinion, having owned limbs from $70 used and up.....
There is a difference for me. I now shoot the best limbs I can afford. If I can't afford them, I save up or sell something.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

What I would like to see is some examples of actual improvement in scores (300 round) achieved by upgrading from a good set of limbs (say, my Tradtech BlackMax Carbon-Woods) to a set of $500-600 set of limbs (spending 2-3X more). The proof is in the shooting.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

It depends on whose $120 and $600 limbs we’re discussing. I’ve shot some $600 limbs that didn’t feel or perform as well as $120 offerings from other companies. But generally speaking, yes, the difference in high to low end is apparent.

Several years ago a company sent me a bow to test. I told the owner I had only two conditions: that he included a prepaid return shipping label because I didn’t want anything for free, and that he wanted my honest feedback, good or bad. He agreed and sent the riser and limbs.

A few days after I got the bow I called him on the phone to let him know my thoughts. Part of the feedback I gave him was that the limbs were some of the worst I’d ever shot. I had to brace them at 9” to keep the bow from wanting to fly out of my hand with a loud “thwack!” every time I dropped the string (the tiller was fine). In contrast, my Winex limbs shot great at 7 ¼”. He apologized and said they were supposed to send me their high end limbs to test (about $600) instead of the entry level models ($150).

Later that week the high end limbs arrived. They shot great, right on par with my Winex limbs. In this case, the difference between their $150 and $600 limbs was night and day. My understanding is they have long since discontinued the low end limbs I tested and replaced them with a much better model for only a few dollars more.


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## Will Tell (Mar 10, 2014)

The difference is $480 dollars.lol if you can't shoot $120 dollar limbs you won't be able to shoot $600 dollar limbs. For the average shooter there's not a nickels difference.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Actually JP, I don't mean to be a nitpicker here, but I think it's important.
> 
> The OP actually asked:
> 
> ...


Kev 

No worries about nitpicking .... I always enjoy the conversations we have  

I agree a pair of decent conventional limbs is not to far behind the top of the line conventional limbs out there 

A perfect example is the Black Max Carbon Extreme 

For 400 dollars I really can't justify spending any more on a conventional design ....they are that good 

But I will spend like I just did another grand for the IlF Hex 7's because I like their feel 

Yes I believe that they will put out slightly more energy than a conventional limb ..... But certainly not enough to quantify the added expense 

No I will not score higher than I would using and decent or even average limb ......... But and this is a big but......I like how they feel 

Enough that I will spend the money 

So to get back to my point in a conventional design I would have trouble dumping 600 + dollars on a conventional design that I can pretty much get the same results and FEEL from a sub 400 dollar limb but I will spend extra to get a drastically different feeling draw cycle that I have come to prefer 

This goes for many different types of fishing rods etc 

A 200 dollar fly rod can at times cast as far as a 1000 dollar rod but many will pay the difference because of a subtle different feel 

So to answer the OP's question I would not spend a huge amount of money on a conventional limb when there are so many great ones in a lower price range but I would spend the bigger money and do to get a limb that feels and performs a certain way 

As for the comment about women 

Have you seen my old lady  

Just like everything in life I like them jacked up


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

A: One set of limbs is $ 480 more money than the other set of limbs.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Dewey3 said:


> What I would like to see is some examples of actual improvement in scores (300 round) achieved by upgrading from a good set of limbs (say, my Tradtech BlackMax Carbon-Woods) to a set of $500-600 set of limbs (spending 2-3X more). The proof is in the shooting.


I shot my best NFAA score (284 25X) with a set of $79 Axiom Plus limbs. I think it depends on what your doing with the limbs. If your just shooting indoors or short range stuff like 3D or hunting then the difference is minimal. If your shooting 70m Fita and are a quality shooter then the couple inches difference from cold to hot may be worth the expense.

The most expensive limbs I have shot were Hoyt's Formula Carbon Quatros ~$750. They seemed pretty fast, but felt possibly stiffer than my Axioms of about the same weight. I only got to shoot them indoors for a couple dozen shots but I'm in no hurry to upgrade to those.

I'm a tightwad and like to have value for the money I spend so I really don't try a lot of expensive gear. On the other hand there are plenty that spend mightily trying to buy accuracy. Some don't even shoot a standard target round to get quantifiable data (which I really do not understand) but - we are all wired a little differently I suppose. I think somewhere in the middle is the place to be, good quality equipment - a year or two old, proven designs for 1/2 the price of the 'state of the art'. In the end traditional archery is much more about the shooter than the equipment, but often, the equipment is much easier to change than the shooter.


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

I'd like to add, consider spending more coin on more efficient limbs improves the ability to successfully take game (ie the same weight arrow is moving faster results in higher chance of a pass through). This is my biggest draw to the 'expensive' limbs


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Intended application is the key. If you are a casual target shooter vs 3D vs hunter trying to get max speed and energy.
Each fills a niche. It just depends on where you fit in when balancing need, ability, and financial ability.
I know guys that have bought $1000 Blackwidows and hated them. 
Despite what some here tell you, there is no right answer.


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## Cwilder (Jun 4, 2006)

For me with a 17" riser with long limbs and a 30" draw. I can tell the difference in limbs so for me yes it's worth it for me to spend the extra money


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Some limbs do have an apparent benefit nearly anyone can feel. The Border Hex limbs is one. (don't have them, wife declined my application). I got to try it recently and it does give the sensation of weight drop off towards the end of the draw. What good is that? It "may" help in high stress situations like a trophy buck at 30 yards or the deciding shot of a championship. Other limbs aren't quite as obvious and sometimes it's in the details like where it stacks, chronograph readings or consistency when the temperature, altitude, or even humidity changes.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

guyver said:


> I'd like to add, consider spending more coin on more efficient limbs improves the ability to successfully take game (ie the same weight arrow is moving faster results in higher chance of a pass through). This is my biggest draw to the 'expensive' limbs


The technical benefits or something in the 'super' recurve class are entirely real. Whether they are or 'worth' it, or even preferred, is entirely subjective.

Same thing with compound bows... Costs/Benefits/options/choice.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

All very good points 

Bill and Rancho 

For me whitetail hunting is a real passion and while I would certainly not say you need a high end Hex limb to kill a deer I work hard and if that is what I enjoy I'm fine with that  

I think the biggest deer shot on AT last year with a single string was with a Sage so there ya go


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

The 'let off' feeling in the hex limbs although interesting, is actually a sign of a more efficient bow. More efficient bow=faster arrow. Which means my arrow has a better chance of a complete pass through. Which means my chance of recovering the animal is better. 

But yes 'worth it' is subjective when referring to anything


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## Yohon (Aug 28, 2003)

GEREP said:


> _*"How can you tell a $600 pair of limbs from a $120 pair?"*_
> 
> The 600.00 pair will cost 480.00 more than the 120.00 pair.
> 
> ...


Badda bing badda boom..........you CANT add anything to that....KPC 12 ringed it!!!!! It ALWAYS comes down to the Indian pullin the string


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Yohon said:


> Badda bing badda boom..........you CANT add anything to that....KPC 12 ringed it!!!!! It ALWAYS comes down to the Indian pullin the string


He's also shooting $ 600 dollar limbs


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I can't say too much because I've never owned or even shot an "expensive" set of limbs.

I still read with some interest though because the bow that I most want to be shooting and hunting with is a self bow of my own making.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Beendare said:


> Good post Grant.
> 
> I've got $80 limbs and $600 limbs. Almost anyone that has shot a trad bow more than a few times can tell the difference between those two....but when you go up the scale the improvements are much more subtle. I think its like most things- the $80 limbs shoot great...and are fine....UNTIL...... you try the expensive limbs, or the 12 yr old bourbon...or the $40 bottle of Red....then you are wrecked for the cheap stuff.


This is about an accurate assessment as I've heard. I do recommend shooting all types of limbs to see for yourself. I'm reading everyone's comments and some I agree with and some I don't. I own $100 limbs and $600+ limbs. I just shot some $600+ limbs of another brand this past weekend. I'm reluctant to go back to $100 limbs after 3 years of shooting premium limbs it makes that much difference to me.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Just like everything in life I like them jacked up


To each their own JP, I tend to like stuff that's real. 

Just like everything in life, when the covering comes off, the truth comes out. 

:mg:

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> He's also shooting $ 600 dollar limbs


Which, in my opinion, makes what I said even more believable. 

:wink: 

Yes, I shoot a set of 600.00 limbs. They feel good, sound good, and perform with the best. However, critter wise and score wise, I can't shoot them appreciably better than I could a set of Black Max wood/glass, or set of Black Max Carbons, or a set of SF Axiom Plus. I'm just not that good...I'm not part of the 5%. 

It's one thing when a guy that shoots a 120.00 limb says there's not a lot of difference, but it's a whole other thing when a guy shooting a 600.00 set says it too.

:teeth:

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree with a lot of what's being said here...and I'd like to add these few extra tidbits...

1. No archer should ever allow themselves to "Feel at a Disadvantage" over shooting inexpensive limbs because IMNSHO?..."Proper Selection & Set-up"...are far more important factors than any claimed performance disparities between expensive and inexpensive limbs.

2. "Skill and Ability" Will ALWAYS Trump "KIT" in every instance no matter what the venue or event.

3. "Not All Limbs Are Created Equal".....be they expensive or inexpensive.

and the following is also...JMHO...

Having owned and shot limbs ranging from $85 too $630?....I've yet to meet the archer who would complain about any of them provided they were properly set up and well tuned and adjusted and it would take a chronograph to discern any delta's in FPS...and while there's times I feel my Glass/Maple Sky XGM's (purchased used for $175 off the classifieds) or even the several sets of TT Black Max Glass/Wood limbs are more forgiving than are my expensive $630 Sky Dbl CF/Boo Core TR7's...but at the end of the day?...the TR7's are the first and only set of limbs I've owned and shot that can be tuned to a state that I can finger shoot clean holes through paper with confidence and consistency shot after shot.

But what's that worth?.....to me?..."A High Level Of Personal Satisfaction"...(which I personally find priceless)...but to others?...

it may not represent much more than a lot of paper shod with very round holes. :laugh:


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm just waitingvto buy Jinx's next $600 set for $150.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Which, in my opinion, makes what I said even more believable.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...


Than you should sell them and get yourself a 120 dollar set 

Put the rest in the bank 

If your not part of the 5 % that can ring them out than why do you have them ? 

I'm certainly not but I enjoy what I enjoy 

This goes back to NO one needs top of the line gear but if you derive personal pleasure out of it I say good for you and more power to you


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> To each their own JP, I tend to like stuff that's real.
> 
> Just like everything in life, when the covering comes off, the truth comes out.
> 
> ...



If it doesn't look good I have no interest in taking the cover off Kevin


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

So, it seems that thhe nutshell answer is, it depends.

If you don't have specifics, the answers are all over the place, and they're all right.

Were there some particular contenders that caught some interest?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> If your not part of the 5 % that can ring them out than why do you have them ?
> 
> I'm certainly not but I enjoy what I enjoy
> 
> This goes back to NO one needs top of the line gear but if you derive personal pleasure out of it I say good for you and more power to you


I have them because I like them. The reasons I like them are all subjective, which was my point from the start. 

So back to the OP's question:

*"Is their a shocking difference that would warrant the extra money..."*

Both our answers could be the same. Other than personal preferences or pride of ownership, not much.



JParanee said:


> If it doesn't look good I have no interest in taking the cover off Kevin.


See JP, there is the difference between us. To me, there's nothing worse than taking off the beautiful wrapper and finding out it was all smoke and mirrors underneath.

:sad:

KPC


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> I have them because I like them. The reasons I like them are all subjective, which was my point from the start.
> 
> So back to the OP's question:
> 
> ...


For the first point 

You found enough of a difference to purchase the 600 dollar limbs thou .....didn't you  

As for the wrap comment .... If i get the wrap off and I feel like I'm in a National Geographic video than I'm out


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Back to the OPs point 

If you blindfolded me and I had to draw 10 different limbs from different companies and different price points there is only one limb that I could bet I could tell which it was 

For me that is the whole point of the question


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> So, it seems that thhe nutshell answer is, it depends.
> 
> If you don't have specifics, the answers are all over the place, and they're all right.
> 
> Were there some particular contenders that caught some interest?


Barney...maybe what some don't take into consideration *(which makes this entire thread extremely subjective)* is this....

the vast differences one can experience due to variables...including riser....

1. Riser Type: Were the limbs in question mounted to a Deflex, Reflex or Straight Up configuration?

2. Riser Limb Pad Angles: Which in my experience thus far?...can and do range as steep as 15 Degrees too upwards of 22 Degrees on Shorties & Warfs.

3. Riser Mass Weight: Was it a 1 1/2# Youth or Fiber/Poly/bow 21" Shorty Excel or?...a 5# Beast of a BB with weights?

and?...

4. Riser Length.

So you could have an inexpensive set of limbs that shoot like a rocket off a short, straight up config riser with limb pad angles on the shallow side and is dead in the hand at the shot over extreme mass weight or?...real expensive limbs who's performance is doggedly lackluster because they are mounted too a 25" long, light mass weight, heavily deflexed riser with steep limb pad angles.

So here we have a plethora of archers with an "across the board" range of riser configurations rending opinions on limbs? :laugh:

where's "The Standard" here?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Back to the OPs point
> 
> If you blindfolded me and I had to draw 10 different limbs from different companies and different price points there is only one limb that I could bet I could tell which it was
> 
> For me that is the whole point of the question


I have no doubt you could. However, that just makes it different, not necessarily better. The question was about what would *"warrant the extra money."* 

If someone blindfolded me and handed me 9 sets of 50lb limbs and one set of 40lb limbs, I guarantee I could tell you which ones were the 40 pounders.. Of course I could, they feel different. That doesn't mean I'd pay 4 times the amount of money for them.



JParanee said:


> If i get the wrap off and I feel like I'm in a National Geographic video than I'm out


The quality of limbs, like the quality of women, is about much more than their shape. 

:wink:

KPC


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I have read thru all of this and analyzed, theorized, grey-matterized and catarized all this and the educated opinion that I've come up with is...........I'M CONFUSED! I'm gonna stick with "it's the Indian not the bow"....


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

They are not 4 times the amount in some cases 

They are only a tad bit more than what you are shooting 

I answered the OPs question 

For me there is only one high end limb that stands out to be different that I can feel the difference without question 

That's my answer sorry if you don't like it


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> I have no doubt you could. However, that just makes it different, not necessarily better. The question was about what would *"warrant the extra money."*
> 
> If someone blindfolded me and handed me 9 sets of 50lb limbs and one set of 40lb limbs, I guarantee I could tell you which ones were the 40 pounders.. Of course I could, they feel different. That doesn't mean I'd pay 4 times the amount of money for them.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree......


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rembrandt said:


> I have read thru all of this and analyzed, theorized, grey-matterized and catarized all this and the educated opinion that I've come up with is...........I'M CONFUSED! I'm gonna stick with "it's the Indian not the bow"....


It's always the most important aspect 

You could take Dwayne of Demmer and they will wipe the field most days with a PVC bow given time to get used to it 

But if the majority of archers just bought a bow that works I wouldn't have just been treated to the endless procession of fine bows I saw in Baltimore 

From high end Widows to Titans with Carbon foam limbs 

Lots of people enjoying some beautiful not needed bows


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## jshperdue (Feb 1, 2010)

GEREP said:


> _*"How can you tell a $600 pair of limbs from a $120 pair?"*_
> 
> The 600.00 pair will cost 480.00 more than the 120.00 pair.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree anymore. I would have saved myself a lot of money if I had started with this philosophy. It's about consistency and the Indian behind the bow. I'd venture to guess very few can shoot the difference between high dollar limbs and a set of the black max wood/glass limb, I know I can't.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> They are not 4 times the amount in some cases
> 
> They are only a tad bit more than what you are shooting
> 
> ...


See the tone things take when we have these discussions JP?

The funny thing is, you seem to be so invested in defending certain narrative, that you don't see that we are actually *agreeing.* 

I said from my very first post, that except for a very small percentage of archers who are talented enough to exploit any *actual objective differences* (a group that I am *not* a part of, by the way), the differences between a 120.00 set of limbs and a 600.00 set of limbs are mostly subjective.

If a person thinks the way something feels *"warrants"* the extra cost, that's fine, and they are welcome to spend any amount of money they choose to feel it.

If a person thinks the way something looks *"warrants"* the extra cost, that's fine too. They are welcome to pay any price they wish for those looks.

I never said that those reasons were invalid, or that my reasons for liking or not liking something are better than anyone else's. Some people are willing to pay substantially more for the same thing just to support someone they like, or to not support someone they don't like. Also, not everyone likes a different "feel.". That's not to say it's not there, it's just that not everyone places a premium on it. 

All I ever said (and based on what you've posted, you seem to agree), is that while there are many valid (to them) reasons for a person to spend 600.00 on a set of limbs as opposed to 120.00 on a set of limbs, very few of them, if any, will make any measurable difference on the target or critter end of the equation for the vast majority of the archers and bow hunters.

As I said in my very first post on this thread *"All the rest is subjective and a matter of personal preference, marketing, and /or hype." * ( */or* added for clarity of intent.)

Like you said, *"that's my answer sorry if you don't like it."* 

:wink:

KPC


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

I have a little different look at the differences between expensive limbs and cheaper models. Especially when it comes to supper recurves. With the extra performance you get from a super recurve you can drop around 5+ pounds and get the same performance. This has helped me shoot more accurately. Also with the higher performing limbs if you short draw a little you don't lose as much speed since they are building less poundage at the end of draw. This has helped my scoring quite a bit on animals and foam.
Chris


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Kevin 

You are correct and that basically we agree 

But ever since the nonsense on TT with you using false names to attack my posts etc things have not been the same between us 

It really bummed me out that you would do that 

But after much deliberation I agree 

I will be selling all of my high end limbs and entering my old lady in pie eating contests 

Hopefully some day we can meet in person and sort out my hard feelings


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think jinks made a really good point.

As such, my position is;

So long as it works for you and you like it, be happy with what you have. The best results come from what you know, what fits, and what you enjoy.

Try things when you're able, if you're curious. If there's something you notice that you like better, investigate, and act accordingly.

Have fun


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

4nolz said:


> I'm just waitingvto buy Jinx's next $600 set for $150.


Not a bad strategy - not just Jinks (although he does test his share of gear ), but the classifieds are full of bargains for those with some patients.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

GEREP said:


> If someone blindfolded me and handed me 9 sets of 50lb limbs and one set of 40lb limbs, I guarantee I could tell you which ones were the 40 pounders.. Of course I could, they feel different. That doesn't mean I'd pay 4 times the amount of money for them.
> KPC


I'd rather score a couple rounds with each of them and go with the ones I shot best...........


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> But ever since the nonsense on TT with you using false names to attack my posts etc things have not been the same between us
> 
> It really bummed me out that you would do that


I never attacked you or your posts, under any name, false or otherwise JP. That's just simply not true. 

In the interest of full disclosure, and just so there is no confusion going forward, my name really isn't *GEREP.* :wink: 

Also, there is a big difference between attacking someone and disagreeing with their opinions. It doesn't bum me out at all if we disagree...even heatedly. Have we have become so thin skinned that we cry foul every time someone disagrees with what we might believe in? Have we become so thin skinned that people are banned from talk forums, just because they disagree with a sponsor, or the close friends of a sponsor? Even if the people that did the banning no longer own or have anything to do with the forum? What bums me out is that *anyone* (and yes, there are many), would even have to use a different sign in name in order to give their honest opinion on a product, service, or method. If what they are saying is inaccurate, it almost always comes out in the wash, and they are often shown to be fools, shills, or just plain wrong. In my opinion, we don't need moderators with their own agendas, to "protect" us from that process. 

The problem with these forums is that if allowed, they become much more about promoting products or personalities, and defending friendships, than the free flow of *accurate* information. Everything comes out in the wash. While true friendships are certainly possible, it's not the reason I come here. Everyone loses, in my opinion, when talk forums are allowed to become nothing more than veiled infomercials for sponsors, and blogs for certain individuals. Threads are conversations and yes, often debates. If I was just looking to read a sponsors views on their own products, or only glowing reviews of the same, I'd just go to their websites. 

If we want to discuss things related to archery equipment or bow hunting, with people that may or may not agree with us, that's cool. I'm just not interested in any of the other ancillary stuff. 

KPC


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

I am undergoing shoulder surgery this week on my drawing arm and will eventually get back into archery using a set of TT 30# limbs. However, eventually I will be looking at low 40# draw weight limbs that are smooth and fast. Possibly even lighter limbs than that depending on how my recovery goes. It seems that the consensus here is that I probably will be unable to distinguish differences between the low dollar limbs from the more expensive ones. Might anyone have a little insight to share concerning the need for speed from low poundage set ups?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> I never attacked you or your posts, under any name, false or otherwise JP. That's just simply not true.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, and just so there is no confusion going forward, my name really isn't *GEREP.* :wink:
> 
> ...



Say what you want Kevin 

I have my opinion of how you behaved as Sullivan and that is not going to change 

I use my name and I stand up for my friends 

You didn't 

It's that simple


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Say what you want Kevin
> 
> I have my opinion of how you behaved as Sullivan and that is not going to change
> 
> ...


I've never posted under the name of Sullivan, on any forum at any time. 

I stick up for my friends also, unless I don't agree with them. In that case, I say so and I explain why I don't agree. Friends sticking up for friends, just because they happen to be friends, is often what makes getting useful, accurate, honest, information and advice on these forums a crap-shoot. 

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Chris Hill said:


> I have a little different look at the differences between expensive limbs and cheaper models. Especially when it comes to supper recurves. With the extra performance you get from a super recurve you can drop around 5+ pounds and get the same performance. This has helped me shoot more accurately. Also with the higher performing limbs if you short draw a little you don't lose as much speed since they are building less poundage at the end of draw. This has helped my scoring quite a bit on animals and foam.
> Chris


Well?...while you make some valid points here Chris?... (and I agree you get some extra kick at the end with the big hooks)...there's a very interesting thread going on in the F.I.T.A. forum inquiring why we don't see the use of such doing much winning or becoming adopted by high level name brand archers.

and with some real interesting answer's.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Well?...while you make some valid points here Chris?... (and I agree you get some extra kick at the end with the big hooks)...there's a very interesting thread going on in the F.I.T.A. forum inquiring why we don't see the use of such doing much winning or becoming adopted by high level name brand archers.
> 
> and with some real interesting answer's.


I haven't looked at that thread, but I can think of a few good answer myself for FITA kinds of applications...

Use of a clicker.
KE available holding weight is of no interest (and for arrow speed, you can just drop arrow weight).
The big companies who sponsor shooters don't sell them.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

If a Buck knife cuts well, dresses deer well, holds an edge well does it warrant spending the money for a Randall?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> I've never posted under the name of Sullivan, on any forum at any time.
> 
> I stick up for my friends also, unless I don't agree with them. In that case, I say so and I explain why I don't agree. Friends sticking up for friends, just because they happen to be friends, is often what makes getting useful, accurate, honest, information and advice on these forums a crap-shoot.
> 
> KPC


Sorry Kevin it was Sylvan or something like that 

Now your just being misleading about what you did because I said Sullivan instead of Sylvan 

You are a tricky guy I'll give you that


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

JINKSTER said:


> Well?...while you make some valid points here Chris?... (and I agree you get some extra kick at the end with the big hooks)...there's a very interesting thread going on in the F.I.T.A. forum inquiring why we don't see the use of such doing much winning or becoming adopted by high level name brand archers.
> 
> and with some real interesting answer's.


Thanks for pointing towards this thread.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If I was looking to maximize KE for a given draw weight I wouldn't hesitate to use a high-energy limb. However I would not go into a serious competition shooting them.

Different priorities.

-Grant


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Grant... Ive certainly knarked you off... for some reason.

but anyhow, 
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/resources/images/2143560/
This is Kate Murray at the 2012 Paralympic games in London. Shooting Hex6 BB2s.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow...first thing that hits my mind is....

Did we really have to travel 3 years back in time too the 2012 London Paralympics...and then into the Female Division to find an example of Hex BB2 ' s being used in a major competitive event? 

hmmm...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> wow...first thing that hits my mind is....
> 
> Did we really have to travel 3 years back in time too the 2012 London Paralympics...and then into the Female Division to find an example of Hex BB2 ' s being used in a major competitive event?
> 
> hmmm...


Perhaps he needed to pull from the 2013 or 2014 Summer Games????  Wait until 2016 and maybe some "real" archers, non-cripples and males, will shoot for you. If your comment were not so bigoted, it would be worth further discussion. You just never know what you will read off these forums.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> wow...first thing that hits my mind is....
> 
> Did we really have to travel 3 years back in time too the 2012 London Paralympics...and then into the Female Division to find an example of Hex BB2 ' s being used in a major competitive event?
> 
> hmmm...


I don't have photos of Kates Recent performance this weekend in Holland representing the GB squad im afraid Jinks...

nor do I have photographic evidence of a lady here in the UK scoring a Grand master Bowman score in Target, Clout and Flight. with Hex6 BB2 limbs. for the shooting year just gone.

The Grand Master Bowman classification is intended to include about the top 1% of U.K. competitive archers (1% for men, 1.5% for women). for each discipline. 
(effectively speaking)


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I shot against a guy at Yahi 3D last weekend that was using the Border 6.5s and dang are those pull nice....though his were loud as hell with him shooting 50# and a 300gr arrow. His bow was significantly flatter shooting than my setup with 560gr arrows.....but the main reason he beat me and shot high score was his great form....I think Don S. only lost one arrow a tad right all day- 42 targets 2 arrows per.

I'm willing to bet he would have beat me even if we swapped bows...thus I'm a firm believer that many of these great archers would still be great- with any bow.


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Well?...while you make some valid points here Chris?... (and I agree you get some extra kick at the end with the big hooks)...there's a very interesting thread going on in the F.I.T.A. forum inquiring why we don't see the use of such doing much winning or becoming adopted by high level name brand archers.
> 
> and with some real interesting answer's.


I am definitely not a world class archer but I can hold my own against most. I don't shoot paper only 3 D and hunt. I really like being able to drop 3# in draw weight and go up 80gr in arrow weight and still have the same speed. I guess I am not good enough to tell the difference in accuracy. But I can tune them well enough to shoot good groups with broadheads at 50 yds. I just won our state championship with a 62" CH shooting against full barebow rigs with stabilizers and rests. So I m very happy shooting super curves and I think they have helped me.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> ...there's a very interesting thread going on in the F.I.T.A. forum inquiring why we don't see the use of such doing much winning or becoming adopted by high level name brand archers.


That was an interesting read.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Chris Hill said:


> I am definitely not a world class archer but I can hold my own against most. I don't shoot paper only 3 D and hunt. I really like being able to drop 3# in draw weight and go up 80gr in arrow weight and still have the same speed. I guess I am not good enough to tell the difference in accuracy. But I can tune them well enough to shoot good groups with broadheads at 50 yds. I just won our state championship with a 62" CH shooting against full barebow rigs with stabilizers and rests. So I m very happy shooting super curves and I think they have helped me.


Well that's cool and it sounds like you are very blessed and skilled Chris...and you mentioned your state win before but congrats again however...I don't think many archers stateside here are going to drop nearly a grand on what I believe is the most expensive limbs currently available (Hex 7's) to experience what shooting a 10gpp rig that's 3#s lighter feels like.

Especially when at the current exchange rate?...a buyer could snag a set of the lastest and greatest Uuhka V1000 Xcurve limb sets for right around $700 USD and those suckers pretty much can't delam...as they are pressure molded 100% CF....and I haven't heard the first complaint yet about Uuhka's upper end limb sets while others?..seem to spend a lot of time chasing dark clouds on the net.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> wow...first thing that hits my mind is....
> 
> Did we really have to travel 3 years back in time too the 2012 London Paralympics...and then into the Female Division to find an example of Hex BB2 ' s being used in a major competitive event?
> 
> hmmm...


Ignorant comment Bill 

I thought you had more class


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

I just happen to shoot a Border but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot any of the super recurves. Joel just ordered a set of Uuhkas extra curves I can't wait to try. Dryad makes a great one as well as Morrison. I just think that the extra power you get out of them means you can drop poundage and and most people will benefit from that.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Chris Hill said:


> I am definitely not a world class archer but I can hold my own against most. I don't shoot paper only 3 D and hunt. I really like being able to drop 3# in draw weight and go up 80gr in arrow weight and still have the same speed. I guess I am not good enough to tell the difference in accuracy. But I can tune them well enough to shoot good groups with broadheads at 50 yds. I just won our state championship with a 62" CH shooting against full barebow rigs with stabilizers and rests. So I m very happy shooting super curves and I think they have helped me.


Chris don't bother 

Kevin wouldn't say Border makes a decent limb if his life depended on it and Jinks just does not know any better 

I'm glad you are shooting well Joel Turner has said as much and says along with my buddy Mark who has shot with you that you are a dam fine shot and great Hunter 

I have a set of Hex 5's ,6 BB2 (6.5) , 3 sets of hex 7's and I am waiting on shipping confirmation on an ILF set of Hex 7's for my WF 19 

So that's six sets of Hex limbs 

I have a ton of other limbs from BF's to Quattros and you can see were I spent my money and what I'm using 

The other limbs are very good limbs but I prefer the Hex stuff 

I'm sick of the pot shots at Border 

Kevin lives for it but jeez Jinks you won't be happy till no one sells you anything 

Have you shot a Border limb ? 

Have you seen a Border limb ? 

Good luck everyone I'm finished with this thread and the stupid ass comments

BTW 

Last I new Ben R and Alan E were shooting Borders and they don't suck to much


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

reddogge said:


> If a Buck knife cuts well, dresses deer well, holds an edge well does it warrant spending the money for a Randall?


I like your analogy........and having said that, I am hoping that the next limbs I buy will be evidence of this.....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Ignorant comment Bill
> 
> I thought you had more class


I do...and hopefully?...one day you'll understand that Joe.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I shoot with a couple of paralympic archers, one used to be my coach. One shoots from a stool and can use a conventional length recurve bow. The other shoots compound from a wheel chair. I often share targets with the later since we both compete at the 90 meter distance. He is interested in trying recurve and we have talked a lot about my Border HEX6's, which are what I am shooting when I am with him. The HEX6, and even more so, the HEX7, allows an archer shooting from a wheel chair to be able to shoot a longer bow and still have clearance. That is a clear benefit of a super recurve for this community of archers. I have shot with many paralympic archers and I am glad that archery provides a good competitive outlet. By the way, the compound archer is a 1350+ FITA shooter. He doesn't just compete, he wins, in the adult compound division.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Interesting read guys LMAO

I think as your average shooter with an average draw length your not going to see much difference between your mid priced limbs and your high end. If your a better than average shooter your might notice the difference over time. For me as a long draw shooter the difference is quite noticeable. I shoot the Hex-6 limbs because after drawing them EVERYTHING else stacks and I personally hate the feeling of a limb stacking weight.

Matt


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> wow...first thing that hits my mind is....
> 
> Did we really have to travel 3 years back in time too the 2012 London Paralympics...and then into the Female Division to find an example of Hex BB2 ' s being used in a major competitive event?
> 
> hmmm...


This is offensive. You may want to re-read then consider having the mods remove it. 

I would hope you don't have a problem with women or people with physical disabilities. Or do you just want to bash border so badly that you don't think before you post?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Interesting read guys LMAO
> 
> I think as your average shooter with an average draw length your not going to see much difference between your mid priced limbs and your high end. If your a better than average shooter your might notice the difference over time. For me as a long draw shooter the difference is quite noticeable. I shoot the Hex-6 limbs because after drawing them EVERYTHING else stacks and I personally hate the feeling of a limb stacking weight.
> 
> Matt


I guess I better start reading from the beginning. I think I missed the funny parts starting at the end.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

guyver said:


> This is offensive. You may want to re-read then consider having the mods remove it.
> 
> I would hope you don't have a problem with women or people with physical disabilities. Or do you just want to bash border so badly that you don't think before you post?


What's offensive is you taking the point of the comment completely out of context and re-directing it to demonize me...now that's offensive to both parties.

See...this is the problem with vendors and boards....everybody wants honest input and unbiased reviews with straight up answers to real questions but as it seems?...very few have the nads to be "That Guy"....and truth is?....I've owned many bows....some by folks who's livelihood rests on such...and as such?...didn't sugar-coat anything but did overlook and bypass many things...why?..."Compassion"..."Understanding"....and not wanting to believe I just gutted me own wallet over what were flawed products.

That needs to change...but it's an upstream battle for any (1) when a consumer base has been established....end result?....when's the last time we heard anyone come on and call things for what they actually were?...instead?...we get...

"Every bow in the world is just the most awesome killer product ever made."

so then folks dream, save, buy and experience huge disappointments.

L8R, Bill.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

Would love to find out some day, most expensive ILF limbs I owned were dryad epics. Thought they were really nice limbs, also liked my TT carbon woods alot though.

But someone accurate with a $600 limb im sure will be accurate with the $120 set. Some limbs just have a nice feel to them, maybe the higher price and brand name gives them a confidence boost that allows them to shoot better and have more fun. All about the journey and your personal experience with the bow. 

For me I loved my tradtech titan and was thrilled with my cheaper TTcarbon woods and epics. Debated about ordering some BF extremes but in the end I was stacking arrows with the cheap limbs and figured i wouldn't get the $480 benefit difference.

If I get out to denton this year for the trad shoot maybe ill find out what I high dollar limb really feels like. although I no longer have a ILF rig to throw them on.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I read a bit more. This is why I test limbs, to provide an objective view of bow performance. There are a lot of variables, and a lot of assumptions regarding how those variable affect performance. A lot of the rules of thumb are unsubstantiated, or at least, few know where the rules came from, let alone the fidelity of the experimentation that was involved. We accept them as truth, but how true are they? Do they move the needle a lot, or just a little? Some could, and probably are, the remnants of old technology, i.e. can you leave a bow strung; will Vectran based string materials damage recurve bows.... So, I am trying to do my part. What I am missing is things to test, particularly different length risers. I would love to run different configuration limbs through my test process on different length risers to see how speed, efficiency and smoothness are impacted. I continue to expand on my test suite and am now focused a lot more on foundational testing, i.e., testing these rules of thumb. In the meantime, I based my input to this thread on what I have measured. It is the best info I have at this point. I would like more.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I read a bit more. This is why I test limbs, to provide an objective view of bow performance. There are a lot of variables, and a lot of assumptions regarding how those variable affect performance. A lot of the rules of thumb are unsubstantiated, or at least, few know where the rules came from, let alone the fidelity of the experimentation that was involved. We accept them as truth, but how true are they? Do they move the needle a lot, or just a little? Some could, and probably are, the remnants of old technology, i.e. can you leave a bow strung; will Vectran based string materials damage recurve bows.... So, I am trying to do my part. What I am missing is things to test, particularly different length risers. I would love to run different configuration limbs through my test process on different length risers to see how speed, efficiency and smoothness are impacted. I continue to expand on my test suite and am now focused a lot more on foundational testing, i.e., testing these rules of thumb. In the meantime, I based my input to this thread on what I have measured. It is the best info I have at this point. I would like more.


Hank?...you are a Shining Star and a breath of fresh air when and where it comes to extrapolating tech specs from archery equipment.

My knee-jerk thoughts went to thinking what riser I could send you for testing as I have two coming in tomorrow (but I have none at the moment)...so I figure there's no way I'm sending you my new WF19 but maybe I'd be willing to send the 21" Spectra warf Sam is sending me but suddenly?...it all sounded ridiculous to me as my life-long machinist thoughts turned too...

*"Why doesn't he just build a fully adjustable fixture?"*


You're a resourceful and very capable guy Hank...so why not just purchase a set of warf ILF plates (on the cheap) and create a slider type "FISER"...one single fixture that can be adjusted to replicate any length and/or any limb pad angle and?....if you clevis it in the middle?...could even include and adjustable "Reflex/Deflex" feature.

Hence gaining the ability to replicate any commercially available riser to infinium and beyond! 

with one single fully adjustable "FISER"....how cool would that be? :cool2:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Kevin wouldn't say Border makes a decent limb if his life depended on it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dang JP, you're on a roll today. If I didn't know better, I'd think you are trying to goad me into an argument.

First of all, if you go back to page one of this thread, and if you are honest with yourself, you will see that it was actually you that turned this is into another Border against the world discussion. 

However, let's set the record straight. Not once have I ever said, or even implied that Border doesn't *"make a decent limb."* Quite the opposite actually. I have always said that I think Border makes high quality, great performing, great looking archery equipment. As do a lot of others. Is it all that it's cracked up to be? Is it everything that some people say it is? I have no idea. I have never seen an independent test of their equipment that put the performance much above that of the other top of the line equipment, if at all.

That's all I, and a lot of others, have ever asked for. Asking for proof and independent verification isn't a "pot-shot." I just think that if a bowyer is going to make bleeding edge performance claims, and how they have literally revolutionized recurve limb design, the onus and responsibility is on them to provide independent verification. Some of the other observations I've made are also well documented by others in the currently running thread over on the FITA forum, so apparently it's not just me that sees it. I'll just leave it at that. 

I just can't for the life of me figure out why Border wouldn't want to silence all the skeptics and have their limbs independently tested. If they proved to be everything they say they are, they would literally own the market. The only two reasons I can think of for not doing it would be that somehow they think the constant controversy is worth more in terms of free marketing than the actual results would be, or they think that the actual results might not be as impressive as advertised.

I'm sure they have their reasons but if they choose not to, they probably shouldn't be surprised when they become fodder for questions and jabs on internet forums. The *"why is everybody always pickin' on me,"* or the *"you're just not smart enough to use them right"* routines are getting old.

KPC


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Hank?...you are a Shining Star and a breath of fresh air when and where it comes to extrapolating tech specs from archery equipment.
> 
> My knee-jerk thoughts went to thinking what riser I could send you for testing as I have two coming in tomorrow (but I have none at the moment)...so I figure there's no way I'm sending you my new WF19 but maybe I'd be willing to send the 21" Spectra warf Sam is sending me but suddenly?...it all sounded ridiculous to me as my life-long machinist thoughts turned too...
> 
> ...


The problem Jinx, is that I am tool and knowledge challenged, and unable to construct what you are talking about, and what I really need. Something where I can change length, limb pad angles, like the Olsson Variable, but test oriented. http://www.ide-teknik.com/

I wish I could because that would be perfect. Basically jigs to hold limbs where all variables can be controlled.

Now we need someone who can conjure up a simple design. I have seen folks make risers out of bed frames. I wonder what can be done if we put our collective brains on the problem.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> I'm sure they have their reasons but if they choose not to, they probably shouldn't be surprised when they become fodder for questions and jabs on internet forums. The *"why is everybody always pickin' on me,"* or the *"you're just not smart enough to use them right"* routines are GETTING OLD.
> 
> KPC


So is your nonsense Gerep , Sylvan or ILF Rocks or who ever else you are this week


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> ....when's the last time we heard anyone come on and call things for what they actually were?...instead?...we get...
> 
> "Every bow in the world is just the most awesome killer product ever made."
> 
> ...



Isn't your above statement the exact description of every (my new bow video) you have ever made?

And then the inevitable falling out of love and the bow gets sold. Then all the reasoning starts again and a new love affair begins.

Joe is a little more honest then you give him credit for. He likes what he likes, he pays his money, he makes a video and makes no excuses for his decisions.
He's not the hypocrite here.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

One problem is that forums are insular bubbles and a small section of the shooting comunity.
just because you dont hear of it on here. Doesnt mean its not happening.
there are some great archers. Check out Tori Dunn on tradtalk. She is doing well. there are other barebow archers such as some of the guys in the Spanish Barebow team. Then you have tradtalks Margly. In norway currently doing well. With hex7s.
these folks dont jump up and down about thier positions Within competitions and i hope i am not offending them by naming them.

There are alot more. im just not that overly keen in putting names forward without permission. I never have been.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Is it possible to separate a man from his pride?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

dougedwards said:


> Is it possible to separate a man from his pride?


Yes, but it usually requires him to assume room temperature.

:wink:

KPC


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Not everyone needs or wants an expensive pair of limbs. Lots of real good limbs for lesser prices.
Unfortunately once you start up the quality/performance/price ladder it is tough to come back down.

I notice there is a lot of strong support for both sides. I just hope that egos are not involved, but having worked with people for so long I know better.
I see it more with compounds. 
Enjoy what you have.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Bill 2311 said:


> Not everyone needs or wants an expensive pair of limbs. Lots of real good limbs for lesser prices.
> Unfortunately once you start up the quality/performance/price ladder it is tough to come back down.
> 
> I notice there is a lot of strong support for both sides. I just hope that egos are not involved, but having worked with people for so long I know better.
> ...


I have to enjoy what I have....can't afford the high dollar limbs.....I am currently looking at a set of SF Axiom limbs. Anyone know of a better buy?


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

I always tell people to buy the best that you can afford. We are lucky with ILF as the cheap limbs today where the top of the line years ago.
Chris.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

GEREP said:


> Which, in my opinion, makes what I said even more believable.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...



Yep. What he said. That's why I drive a Suburu.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

rembrandt said:


> I have to enjoy what I have....can't afford the high dollar limbs.....I am currently looking at a set of SF Axiom limbs. Anyone know of a better buy?


Really depends on how flexible your budget and time frame is.
A few ways to accomplish this are: 1) wait on a better quality limb in the correct weight and length to show on the classifieds.
2) put a wanted ad with or without budget on the classifieds.
3) check ALT archery services for close outs on prior years limbs.
They had the SF fiber foams and silver premium plus carbon glass limbs marked down.
I found the silver SF premium carbons limbs to shoot very well and felt good to me for the money. They were replaced with new black paint and graphics and still run $179 from LAS. I bought a bunch from LAS before and after the changes and found the silver ones to have a slightly better finish. 
I've yet to shoot $600 limbs and the thought kind of scares me knowing what that might result in 
Best of luck.


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## Stykshooter (Aug 2, 2007)

I have had more sets of limbs through my hands than I can remember, from $90.00 cheap limbs to two sets of BF extremes. I have spent a lot of time messing with them and running limbs through the chronograph. One snowy winter a couple of years back I spent three days off and on shooting various limbs through the chronograph, shooting the same arrow and using a clicker for consistency. I'd have to do a search and inventory here at the house to honestly say how many sets of ILF limbs I currently have.

Generally, the upper end limbs will give me, with my set ups, in the neighborhood of 2-5 f.p.s. more velocity. One of the real advantages of the more expensive limbs is in the feel, which as has been stated several times above, is highly subjective. For the most part, a good set of expensive limbs feel like they are about five pounds lighter in draw weight to me and will shoot a slightly heavier arrow faster. These differences may or may not become more pronounced when I switch the limbs between metal and wood risers. A set of lower end limbs may feel and shoot just fine off of one of my Titans but feel subpar off of one of my wooden risers. As an aside, that is one of the reasons that I like my Black Magic wood and phenolic riser. It really does feel better at the shot, regardless of the limb. But once again, that is my perspective.

I spent a lot of my life shooting competition but for the most part I am mainly interested in hunting now. That being said, having a bow that is whisper quiet is of paramount importance to me. I have noticed, once again off of my risers and with my shooting style, that it is a lot easier to get a glass/wood limb quieter than it is some of the high performance limbs. As the majority of shots I will be taking in the woods is going to be 25 yards and in, I usually opt for a set of glass/wood limbs on my hunting bows.

I was at Baltimore this past weekend and was really surprised to see as many sets of Hex limbs up there as there were. It is certainly a unique limb, recognizable from a distance and with a definitely different feel. I don't own a set and may or may not ever pick a set up, but I do think it is an interesting concept. But if they are the limb you are happy with and you personally feel they give you a performance edge, then by all means go for it. As long as you are happy with them and we have fun busting each other's balls on a 3-D course or field round, run what you like. I am also perfectly content driving my ten year old pick up. But if you have the means and desire to buy the newest Maserati each year, I certainly don't have a problem parking beside you.

Getting back to the original question about how to tell the difference in limbs. I believe that most experienced archers will probably be able to detect the difference in FEEL between the two sets of limbs. I'd wager that the majority of archers would be able to detect the difference in FEEL between a set of conventional limbs and set of Hex limbs. As the difference in speed when shooting the same arrow is going to be marginal, I don't think you are going to be able to detect it without a chronograph or unless you are shooting 90 meters on a F.I.T.A. course. It is hard for me to use speed as criteria for spending the extra money on a set of limbs as I am paying $100.00 for each extra f.p.s. But a lot of guys have no problem paying five grand to wring a couple of extra horsepower out of their vehicle either. Whatever floats your boat.

I agree that the easiest way to determine a difference in a $120.00 set of limbs and a $600.00 set of limbs is going to be the amount of $100.00 bills you need to purchase them.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GBUSA said:


> Isn't your above statement the exact description of every (my new bow video) you have ever made?
> 
> And then the inevitable falling out of love and the bow gets sold. Then all the reasoning starts again and a new love affair begins.
> 
> ...


Who said I was talking about Joe?...I believe I even I included myself in the nonspecific mix of things...I'm done here.

EDIT/PS: BTW....it was Joe's lambasting of others providing hardware store ILF fittings in his latest WF19 vid that sealed the deal on me ordering a WF19 as my replacement riser...should be here today...but no sense reviewing it now.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rembrandt said:


> I have to enjoy what I have....can't afford the high dollar limbs.....I am currently looking at a set of SF Axiom limbs. Anyone know of a better buy?


What weight are you looking for rembrandt? I have an "as new" set of *Axiom +* that I'd give you a heck of a deal on.

:wink:

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> One problem is that forums are insular bubbles and a small section of the shooting comunity.


I think your factory running at full capacity and having a well-respected name in bows proves this out, even in the minority representation of archers on the forums. If some few were not trying to take you down, then you would have worries. It's a sign of success.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Well said Sanford


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Guys I don't mean to come off nasty here 

I answered the OPs question by stating that any limb will get it done and that proof of this is that the biggest deer I saw shot on here last year with a single string was done with a sage 

My only comment was that today's production conventional limbs are so good that blind folded I would have a hard time telling them apart 

Sure they might feel a tad lighter or smoother but when set up correctly the 3 to 4 hundred dollar conventional limbs of today and even some of the 2 hundred dollar limbs are rivaling the 600 dollar limbs out there 

what I did say was that IMHO the only top tier limb that I know of that feels very different is the Hex series limbs 

I said it was not necessarily better or worse 

I have grown to really like the limbs and obviously for my money I believe that the subtle differences are worth the money 

What makes me get angry is that every time I mention the name Border the same clowns jump in and say well that's your opinion and that's subjective 

My answer back is no **** 

I stated it as my opinion 

I never said they were better for everyone or that you need to buy them 

Now I have Jinks who means well making a full on assault on Border for god knows what ? He's never even seen or shot a Hex limb that I know of 

I like Bill and I enjoy his archery journey as well as the next but I do not agree with lambasting small companies on the Internet and the only time I ever made an ill comment was on the BS thread and that was due to a policy that was in place not the quality of the kit 

I will continue to promote Border Archery and I do believe that what they are doing is revolutionary and I have invested a lot of my money in their wares and I will continue to do so 

Yes it is true that I have become friends with both of the SIDS and I am proud to call them that. It is also true that I have become friends with many on here. Unlike some I actually go and meet fellow board members and shoot with them. There are some wonderful people on here 

I had a wonderful conversation via Skype with Sid senior the other morning and a finer gentleman you would be hard pressed to find anywhere 

In the end the mark that Border archery leaves on the industry will speak for itself and if I were a betting man I'd say it will be rather impressive 

If I came off arrogant or nasty I apologize .....but I'm just sick of the same old detractors with the same old nonsense evey time someone says hey I really like my Border limbs and the way they feel and shoot


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Well that's cool and it sounds like you are very blessed and skilled Chris...and you mentioned your state win before but congrats again however...I don't think many archers stateside here are going to drop nearly a grand on what I believe is the most expensive limbs currently available (Hex 7's) to experience what shooting a 10gpp rig that's 3#s lighter feels like.
> 
> Especially when at the current exchange rate?...a buyer could snag a set of the lastest and greatest Uuhka V1000 Xcurve limb sets for right around $700 USD and those suckers pretty much can't delam...as they are pressure molded 100% CF....and I haven't heard the first complaint yet about Uuhka's upper end limb sets while others?..seem to spend a lot of time chasing dark clouds on the net.


I spent almost as much on my CH as I spent on my car, live in an unfinished house, heat it with yard trash.

I have no regrets dumping more than what used to be a month of rent into a bow. Spent less on it than a couple compounds I sold at a drastic loss. Spent less on it than all of the bows that came before, most of which I barely shoot.

I'm fine with the value. It is a personal choice. If that makes me stupid, I can't see that I see a whole lot that is smart.

Differences are real and quantifiable. Useful for you and what you do, probably not, though you've decided pretty certainly with no experience I can decipher.

I am sure there is a degree of hype associated with all marketing. With some products, and some companies, more than others.

I wouldn't tell anybody that it will help them shoot better, though despite a lack of practice, my scoring at events I have attended haven't seemed to suffer.

pick your tools as it suits you, and let others do the same. There is no universal fit, as you've discovered over and over.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JParanee, you have about the most tolerant personality here on this board. You didn't come off nasty at all. If you of all people had to sternly speak your mind, it must be for good reason. Folks can have good reason to like or not like about anything, but when someone is constantly farting in public over their same old saw, even creating anonymous names to hide an anonymous name so their smell can't be traced back to them, calling them out on their public actions, in public, is what is needed around here.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> What weight are you looking for rembrandt? I have an "as new" set of *Axiom +* that I'd give you a heck of a deal on.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> KPC


Archers helping archers! YAY!


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Ford or Chevy? (or foreign...)

its just an opinion based thread bringing out brand loyalties and brand dislikes.No correct answer.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> What weight are you looking for rembrandt? I have an "as new" set of *Axiom +* that I'd give you a heck of a deal on.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> KPC


Sent ya a PM.....


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Rembrant, I think to actually address what you're asking, I think unless you're looking for something in particular, you can get everything you want with an inexpensive, well-engineered limb.

JP, whether intended or not, it seems that there is some kind of backlash going on, and baggage involved, though it, like many things, are well-intended.

Jinks, you are an inspired soul. I enjoy sharing in your revelations, but sometimes we can make use of a pause button to good effect .

Kevin, as somebody who works in a field driven by conspicuous consumption as much as functionality, I understand where you're coming from. Hype, marketing that leverages identity-seeking behavior, flat out misinformation, it is rampant in every market I have seen, particularly in America. I have a client who collects Ferraris, another who drives a bonafide race car as a hobby. No practical use at all, but to them, it is worth it.

Nobody should feel compelled to buy more than they can afford. Any well-tuned setup that fits the individual, that the individual has developed a familiarity with, will out perform, in terms of accuracy, any top of the line setup that does not meet the same criteria. What is more, many who try to buy shooting results, because they keep looking for the fix in the equipment, will never get to the level of the guy who simply learns to use what he has. I sometimes wonder if the top compound shooterfs get annoyed about having to change equipment every year.

The other thing is, not every tool is suitable for every purpose, or everyone. I looked at the FITA thread Jinks mentioned. It was indeed interesting, and also disappointing. What I took from it was two things mainly. First, that nothing is best for everybody, and results will vary. Second, a lot of animosity arises from insecurity and the resulting miscommunication. Nobody thinks that they are the jerk, and yet we invariably treat each other poorly, time to time.

So, cost is not predictive of end results, for many, many reasons. A person can do very, very well with well-chosen, inexpensive equipment that they take the time and effort to select carefully, and learn. 

Still, sometimes, even though it isn't necessarily true, sometimes you want something in particular, and it does cost more. You certainly don't need it, but for some people, the value is there, for them.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I've had durability issues with cheaper ILF limbs (twisting, bolts coming off). I feel like there are slight, incremental differences in more expensive ones.

However, I would take the less durable cheap ILF limbs, on performance, over those on a Sage or Polaris.

However, at the point when I was starting out I got by fine with a Sage or Polaris. I wouldn't use them for normal target work but I will use a Red Stag for 3d.

Is one better than the other? Probably. Would the money at certain stages be better spent on coaching? Yes. Would a sharp archer catch on to differences and benefit from them? Yes.

FWIW I think you could get a reliable accurate ILF limb pretty inexpensively, but there might be some significantly more expensive limb that might get you x amount of added speed or easier through a clicker. What do you need it for?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> I am currently looking at a set of SF Axiom limbs. Anyone know of a better buy?


Not until you are willing to spend $350.

-Grant


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rembrandt said:


> Sent ya a PM.....


Never got it rembrandt, try again.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> What makes me get angry is that every time I mention the name Border the same clowns jump in and say well that's your opinion and that's subjective


"Clowns?" Really? You mean like the same clowns that jump in on every Black Swan thread? Or the same clowns that jump on every Titan thread? Or the same clowns that jump on every BW thread, and every X, Y, and Z thread? 

Contrary to what you might think, these boards have been around long before you bought a border, and they will be around long after you move on to something else. Same for me. New people ask the same damn questions as if they are new questions, because to them, they *are* new questions...and believe it or not they are *looking* for answers from *both* sides. Not just your side and not just my side. So every time you post the same old crap about how you feel, you really should expect others to say the same old crap about how they feel. You think they're clowns, they think you're a clown. That's how this works.

When someone says certain things are subjective, your response is "no spit," you've said that a hundred times.

When you say you like the way a certain limb feels, others response is "no spit," you've said that a hundred times.

If we all stopped saying the same things because they've all been said before, the boards would have a whole bunch of questions and zero answers.

How many times do you think I've defended the ILF connection when the same ass clowns says it's too noisy to hunt? Or that it's just like shooting a compound? Or that all the screws and bolts come loose in the field? I defend it every single time someone new asks the question, because I want them to have the correct information...at least as I see it. I don't want them to be mislead by the "clowns" that have no clue what they are talking about. It would be a heck of a lot easier to just ignore them, right? Is that what we should do? 

So what? When a new person asks what it is about a limb that warrants it costing 600.00 instead of 120.00, we're all supposed to sit on the edge of our seats and listen to what you think warrants the additional money, but when someone else disagrees with you, or says something different, they're "clowns" and aren't entitled to their opinions?

Have I ever suggested you stop posting the same old crap that you always post just because I don't happen to agree with you and I've read it all before? No. Why then would you suggest others stop posting the same old crap they always post, just because you don't agree and you've seen it all before? 

Apparently you think that no matter how many times you say the same things, they are always pearls of wisdom, but when other's say the same things, they are "clowns" taking "pot shots."

If all you want to do is post the things you believe, and have nobody ever disagree with you, or God forbid post an opposing opinion, there is a place on Archery Talk for that.

It's called _*"Archery Talk Blogs & Articles"*_

http://archerytalkblog.com/

However, if we choose to post our opinions here, we should probably be thick enough skinned to realize that not everyone is going to agree. Three days from now, when someone asks the same question again, expect me to give the same answer...and I'll expect you to do the same.

KPC


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Dag-gum.......I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started this thread......LOL.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> Never got it rembrandt, try again.
> 
> KPC


I just sent you another.......


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

grantmac said:


> Not until you are willing to spend $350.
> 
> -Grant


Hey, that's more than I'm spending on the riser........I was told earlier to buy high on the riser and low on the limbs....what gives?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

No kevin 

If the majority on here new of your nonsense on TT with your using false identitys copying my videos for your own nonsense and basically being a back stabbing creep to me maybe they wouldn't think your BS was so cool 

On one board you were Kevin my friend and on an other you were some clown attacking and using my own videos to run your own little war against The SIDS because they made a fool of you with the whole there is no glass in the BF Debocal

Only person that is a fool here is me for thinking that you and I were actually ever friendly 

Shame is I do agree with much you have to say about so many things it's a shame you have that sneaky side that does things under false names to carry your own little private wars 

Many are saying that you are now ILF Rocks on TT and you are back attacking the DAS stuff 

You tricked me again if so and I was posting pics that you requested thinking that it was some new guy named ILF Rocks 

I guess I'm stupid 

But I'd rather be stupid than fake and malitous


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> Hey, that's more than I'm spending on the riser........I was told earlier to buy high on the riser and low on the limbs....what gives?


That is what I'm saying. Unless your limb budget is $350 then stick with the $80 Axiom+. If you have the budget for $350 limbs then spend it, but only if you also have the budget for the next upgrade in riser (G1 IMHO).
Either way I'm betting the $250 riser and $80 limbs will perform as well as you could wish for your purposes. I'd look into a 12" stab as well, that is worth more points then the best limbs in the work indoors.


-Grant


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> Rembrant, I think to actually address what you're asking, I think unless you're looking for something in particular, you can get everything you want with an inexpensive, well-engineered limb.
> 
> JP, whether intended or not, it seems that there is some kind of backlash going on, and baggage involved, though it, like many things, are well-intended.
> 
> ...


Very good post BarneySlayer, I agree with everything in it. People buy things for their own reasons for sure, and the only purchases that need to make sense to me are the ones I make for myself. Just cuz' you want em' is good enough if you know going in that it's just cuz' you want em'. If you're buying gummy bears because you like gummy bears it's one thing. If you're buying gummy bears thinking they're vitamins, it's quite another.

:wink:

KPC


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

grantmac said:


> That is what I'm saying. Unless your limb budget is $350 then stick with the $80 Axiom+. If you have the budget for $350 limbs then spend it, but only if you also have the budget for the next upgrade in riser (G1 IMHO).
> Either way I'm betting the $250 riser and $80 limbs will perform as well as you could wish for your purposes. *I'd look into a 12" stab as well,* that is worth more points then the best limbs in the work indoors.
> 
> 
> -Grant


Just a note on stabilizer lengths. The 12 inch rule is not the length of the stab itself but measured from the back of the bow per NFAA rule 11 defining a trad bow. Don't ask how I found out.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

What I try to do is buy the best items that I can afford and sometimes I go even higher. But having said that, my son and I went to a 3-D shoot just above Birmingham, AL and we signed up and started practicing.....a guy walked up and asked if he could shoot with us and of course we agreed......His bow looked scratched up and well used, strings were hanging loose and he said his Wal-Mart arrows didn't match his bow, every time he let fly I flinched just waiting for the strings to snap.......well, I'm here to tell ya that out of the 20 animals we shot at, he had 13 in the X.......He won the tournament with hardly any around to challenge him.....It's the Indian, not the bow..........


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee said:


> No kevin
> 
> If the majority on here new of your nonsense on TT with your using false identitys copying my videos for your own nonsense and basically being a back stabbing creep to me maybe they wouldn't think your BS was so cool
> 
> ...


That's what some might want you to believe JP, but nobody made me look stupid. I was only passing on information that was told to me by the person who had a hand in designing the limb. I guess they made Rob look stupid too, because that's what he thought also. How can I look stupid for honestly passing on information that was given to me, when I specifically inquired about it? I was told there was no glass in the limb, I passed that information along, and the information ended up being incorrect. I admitted that the information I was given was incorrect. Done, end of story. I don't feel stupid in the least. 

As to the rest of your post, this is the last thing I'm going to say on this matter JP. No need to respond, just some things to think about.

There are a lot of people on these boards that have an agenda. They will do anything they can in order to discredit someone that has an opinion that differs from theirs. Some of the same people are doing their best to discredit the spit out of me, are also doing their best to discredit the spit out of Sid over on the FITA forum. Funny how these things all come around. 

Some of the very same people that are telling you things about me are the very same people who also said that I and couple others were being paid 10,000.00 to shoot the original Titan, and specifically brought on board to put David Soza out of business. It's the same people that swore up and down that Rob K. was having his computer people manipulate the search engines so anyone that was searching for "DAS" was re-routed to Lancaster Archery Supply. I could tell you things that I was accused of that are so patently ridiculous that you probably wouldn't even believe them. If I spent all my time responding to that drivel, that's all I would ever do. 

You spent the weekend with some people that will tell you flat out, that I am not exaggerating. I can assure you, some of the very same people that are telling you things about me said some pretty interesting things about you...when you were primarily shooting TradTech stuff. To some, the enemy of their enemy is their friend.

Someday we'll cross paths and we can discuss these things in person. I look forward to it. Believe what you wish, but this topic is dead as far as I'm concerned.

KPC


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I would never have thrown Rob under the bus like you just did 

You don't know the meaning of friendship 

Rob wasn't on the internet running his mouth ...... You where 

As far as what people have to say about me being affiliated with Trad Tech they meaning Trad Tech will always have my undying support 

I have three Titans a Black Magic and more TT limbs than I can count 

Kevin ya hurt my feelings with the fake names and using my posts for your own agenda 

You also offended me with the some women like to have fake tits bull**** comment and they are fake this and that 

Believe me you don't want to meet me in person 

Leave me the **** alone


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

We are a bunch of middle aged guys poking stuff with sharp sticks - this stuff ain't the end of the world. 

But I gotta say fake names and agendas SUCK. Kevin on one site your shinny happy and asking me for shooting help and on the other your are a crap stirring PRICK - not how I choose to conduct myself or behavior I will participate in.

You reap what you sow.


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## PaulDeadringer2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Joe, no need to defend yourself or what you shoot. I enjoy your videos and it's easy to see you are a competent shooter who knows what he's talking about. Speaking of videos.....Kevin, please post a video of you shooting so we know you're a competent enough shooter that knows what he's talking about. It's easy to say high end limbs are no different than any other limb if you can't shoot accurately.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rembrandt said:


> I just sent you another.......


Rembrandt:

Sent you some pics .

Thanks,

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Yes, the difference was that Rob listened to Sid and researched and reported he was mistaken. He knew his limits on the subject. He was a pro about it. Blaming him was about the lowest of lows.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hope I don't stir the pot here, but I made a post very early on . In it I mentioned that feel and speed is not the absolute measure of a quality limb. Shot to shot consistency is much more important to me than absolute speed. I have noticed this in my comparison of inexpensive limbs and higher quality limbs. Though I don't have a huge selection to experiment with my thoughts come from stepping up from SF carbon plus limbs to Win&Win Winex limbs. With all things being equal, weight on the fingers , arrows , and the same riser my scores on a NFAA field round shooting trad recurve went from a 415 average to a 430 average for 28 targets. I saw the most gain at yardages over 50 yards. 10 to 30 yards had only a small increase in score. So I can understand where there is a little confusion when comparing lower and higher quality limbs at 20 yards versus 80 yards. My higher quality limbs will definitely shoot a slightly tighter group. Just my thoughts though.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> Rembrandt:
> 
> Sent you some pics .
> 
> ...


I got the photos and I sent you a message back...I also sent you a PM just now and you need to send me your Pal Pal no..........


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sanford said:


> Yes, the difference was that Rob listened to Sid and researched and reported he was mistaken. He knew his limits on the subject. He was a pro about it. Blaming him was about the lowest of lows.


Nice try at stirring the pot Sanford, but there was no blaming going on and still isn't. I emailed Rob about in on numerous occasions and yes, I still have the emails. Rob was told by samick there was no glass in the limbs. Rob relayed that information to me, and I in turn relayed it. No blame at all, just an honest mistake from Samick, through Rob, through me. Nothing more than a chain of what ended up being incorrect information. 

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Rembrandt:

I sent you a PM. I question whether the shorts would be good at your DL. 

KPC


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## MikeG (May 17, 2014)

Corene1 said:


> Hope I don't stir the pot here, but I made a post very early on . In it I mentioned that feel and speed is not the absolute measure of a quality limb. Shot to shot consistency is much more important to me than absolute speed. I have noticed this in my comparison of inexpensive limbs and higher quality limbs. Though I don't have a huge selection to experiment with my thoughts come from stepping up from SF carbon plus limbs to Win&Win Winex limbs. With all things being equal, weight on the fingers , arrows , and the same riser my scores on a NFAA field round shooting trad recurve went from a 415 average to a 430 average for 28 targets. I saw the most gain at yardages over 50 yards. 10 to 30 yards had only a small increase in score. So I can understand where there is a little confusion when comparing lower and higher quality limbs at 20 yards versus 80 yards. My higher quality limbs will definitely shoot a slightly tighter group. Just my thoughts though.


Thank you very much for that. I've had the same question as the OP for a while now, and I was hoping to read more answers like yours.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

So after much thought and deliberation?...I finally came up with a solid answer of "What The Difference Is"...

With the $600 Limbs?...my wife screams at me...

*"Where the He11 is ALL YOUR MONEY GOING?...Are You ON DRUGS AGAIN?!!!*

but with the $150 Limbs?....she never even notices. :laugh:

and no...that's not the truth...but I just figured this thread could use a touch of humor.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

jinkster said:


> so after much thought and deliberation?...i finally came up with a solid answer of "what the difference is"...
> 
> With the $600 limbs?...my wife screams at me...
> 
> ...


Quod erat demonstrandum


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Quod erat demonstrandum


twice...in one lifetime...way I figure?...3rd times a charm. :laugh:

so we...I mean..."I"...won't go there. 

Hopefully. :laugh:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> Rembrandt:
> 
> I sent you a PM. I question whether the shorts would be good at your DL.
> 
> KPC


Well, I'm in dire need of a refresher course on the TRAD bows.......I sent you a PM and I measured the length of the GT Trad arrows and they are 30" long. At full draw my wife measured from the front of the riser to the end of the arrow and there was 2" out front not counting the tip.....I figure that but with the long limbs....I need to know how long the shorts are and if they will stack on me at a 29" DL? that's is the deciding question......Guess I need to come out with Tony's book and read up on these things........


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> There are a lot of people on these boards that have an agenda. They will do anything they can in order to discredit someone that has an opinion that differs from theirs. Some of the same people are doing their best to discredit the spit out of me, are also doing their best to discredit the spit out of Sid over on the FITA forum. Funny how these things all come around.



I have a lot to learn, that's for sure...

I was 15 years old when I attended a fun course....
one thing I walked away with was a method of working out if someones verbal reasons match their motives.

it focused on a scenario of a car sales man.
customer who is mearly wasting time:
Sales guy: I see your interested in this car...
buyer: I am, nice car, shame about colour, I wanted a blue car
Sales Guy: I have one exactly the same, Milage everything, but its in blue.
Buyer: but this ones a little too expensive.

His motive was to pass time. his verbal reasons were trash, a bluff. you wont get to the truth... you will get bluff after bluff.

if the buyer was interested, he would have proceeded to the next logical series of questions. "what happens once I own it" So what after care does it comes with?


so what happened there was the sales guy removed his objection. his objection changed goal posts. 
sales guy needs to abort. abandon the case. hes on a wild goose chase.


with this rational in mind...

read the nay sayers posts.

if you have also read their history of objections.
one guy:
limb mass is too light, sort that and id buy one...
I offered to make him a glass set. never got a reply.
now this guy is quoting a different problem...
REALLY...

another guy:
is claiming its a customer service issue.
its also a product performance issue
its also a trust issue with me in particular
Really... Nothing right!

You on the other hand Kevin, are consistent. even if its not always with the same name. but you can spot your rational a mile off in the words you use.

We all know each other too well here.


the difference is being able to spot the real topics under all the excuses and statements.

its a shame. because forums would be a lot more usefull if it were not for the alterior motives and agendas. mostly hatchets..


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rembrandt said:


> Well, I'm in dire need of a refresher course on the TRAD bows.......I sent you a PM and I measured the length of the GT Trad arrows and they are 30" long. At full draw my wife measured from the front of the riser to the end of the arrow and there was 2" out front not counting the tip.....I figure that but with the long limbs....I need to know how long the shorts are and if they will stack on me at a 29" DL? that's is the deciding question......Guess I need to come out with Tony's book and read up on these things........


As I said in my PM to you, in my opinion, with a 29" DL length, I think you would be on the verge of overworking the limbs. If I were in your situation, and using the limbs for what you want to use them for, I would look for a longer set. A good deal is only a good deal if it's the right fit.

JMHO 

KPC


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> As I said in my PM to you, in my opinion, with a 29" DL length, I think you would be on the verge of overworking the limbs. If I were in your situation, and using the limbs for what you want to use them for, I would look for a longer set. A good deal is only a good deal if it's the right fit.
> 
> JMHO
> 
> KPC


I agree.....disappointed but both you and Tony are right on this and I'll continue my search for "long" limbs. that's why I like it here on AT trad forum......good people and good info.........


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rembrandt said:


> I agree.....disappointed but both you and Tony are right on this and I'll continue my search for "long" limbs. that's why I like it here on AT trad forum......good people and good info.........


No problem. I wasn't necessarily looking to sell the limbs but I saw what you posted earlier and thought if they worked I'd pass them on. 

If I see anything else, I'll let you know. 

Bringing this back around to the original intent of the thread, I purchased these limbs (SF Axiom +) for my daughter and wife's bow, but as with anything else, I always try them, not only on their risers but on my risers too. I was actually very pleasantly surprised. Limbs have become so good in the last decade, the functional difference gap between them, especially for average archers/bowhunters, is getting narrower and narrower. This is a GREAT thing for all of us. 

I still maintain that a lot of people might be able to *feel* the difference in limbs, or *hear* the difference, or even *record* the difference on a chronograph, but very few are able to actually *"shoot"* the difference...especially after the honeymoon is over.

:wink:

KPC


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

GEREP said:


> No problem. I wasn't necessarily looking to sell the limbs but I saw what you posted earlier and thought if they worked I'd pass them on.
> 
> If I see anything else, I'll let you know.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gerep.....I will keep looking also. I might have to end up buying new from Las. but I've found some good buys in the used dept. Both my riser and limbs that I have been shooting since day one (ILF bow) has been this bow and I've done fairly well with it....I do want the SF Forged riser and the Axiom+ limbs however and if I have to buy new, I'll bite the bullet and do so.......there is always Tradtalk to go to and let them know I'm in the hunt for new limbs........


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

With your draw length medium limbs would be an good fit too.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> You on the other hand Kevin, are consistent. even if its not always with the same name. but you can spot your rational a mile off in the words you use.


From what I see, it becomes a circular process. One side says "This is the benefit." The other responds, "That's not really a benefit, because you can do it another way, don't need it, doesn't improve ____ for most people, therefore a waste of money, in my opinion."

I see both sides being right, given their own perspective. 

I think it is more accurate to say that there is an objective characteristic, that may or may not fit into a whole array of parameters, the benefit of which will depend on the end user, their situation, and their purpose. There are potential benefits, on which a shooter may or may not capitalize, and there are also costs, the most obvious of which being money.

You can have a race car, but if you don't learn to drive well, you're just going to fly off the road that much faster, and sooner. One guy will tell you, get the race car, and learn to drive it. The other guy will tell you, learn to drive, then consider getting a race car once you're good enough to make use of it. Another guy will tell you, save your money, get a motorcycle. Another will tell you, just buy a jet. Another will tell you to build/buy a rocket. Another will tell you to simply become an astronaut, and get a free ride...

Doesn't change a darn thing about a particular engine.

But, when you boil it down, people are arguing over different things, and not disagreeing about the specific realities.


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Very good post BarneySlayer.


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