# Inappropriate posts in here....



## CarlV

I really liked the concept of somewhere to go where advanced archers could gather to discuss advanced completion archery topics.

It is rapidly digressing to somewhere that people with little to no competition experience are coming to ask stuff like what they should expect on their first 3D shoot, or how much should I reduce arrow weight, what is the size of the target, bla, bla, bla.......

The members on here are perpetuating this by answering these types of questions instead of asking them to take it to the appropriate forum to get their questions answered.

I've already observed a decrease in advanced archery chatter.

Who wants to wade through this babble to get to the advanced type subjects we come here to read and discuss?

Just some thoughts.


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## GWFH

Considering the size of this forum, and how loose all other subforums are structured......this one is going better than I expected.
I dont think you'll ever eliminate all the noise, but you guys been doing a good job of handling it so far.

Couldn't agree more.


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## hrtlnd164

I have been seeing numerous members tactfully and politely guiding some of these threads elsewhere for their answers. Every sub forum on AT is full of repeat info. About 75% of the threads started on AT could be avoided if people would learn to use the search bar!


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## SonnyThomas

"The members on here are perpetuating this by answering these types of questions instead of asking them to take it to the appropriate forum to get their questions answered."....*BS*

We've repeatedly replied of "needs to go to another forum in one manner or another" to many Posts and it's been going pretty good. Like that stupid 50 meter target. It was removed and the same person came back and posted it again.... The second time I gave of the bull's eye being 14 1/2" in diameter.

The one of going to his first 3D was asking of the national level. Okay, a toss up and I let it slide, but then a National is different from a club or state sanctioned 3D.


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## montigre

When I noticed the target thread reposted, I sent in a report to our Mod.... I've sent in quite a few this week.... 

I've been seeing a distinct pattern with these posts--they seem to be coming mostly from beginner/novice 3D shooters who feel it is their right to post their questions anywhere they choose and then attack or question anyone who informs them they should post elsewhere.

You're also correct in that these types of questions should not be answered and be redirected right way; but again, it's primarily the same people noted above who are perpetuating this trend by answering these threads.


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## c.sitas

Well said Sonny. Since Mahly asked to regroup ,I think things have changed. It just seems some poeple don't sleep well or?


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## SonnyThomas

I correct myself. I can't find the national 3D post, Metropolis, but I know I replied, perhaps another forum.....
And I correct myself again. I found it here down the list.

And that May 28 attack by that Du lama joker, he replied to numerous good Post in rapid fashion. We have no control over that. Report him is all we can do.... and he hasn't been back....


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## Perentie

I agree with making the inappropriate posts go away.

I really like this sub forum, seems to have more 'knowledgeable' information. I really do not want to sift through the crap or any of the brand tooting or bashing other sections get lambasted with.

However I would like a lil bit of leniency when someone coming up to a 'higher' level of competition asking for advice. Maybe not the super newb questions. But like that one asking about the State up to National level. Those people (I may end up being one eventually) that do ask are asking those with more knowledge and experience than the normal run of the mill general chat posters. I would even go as far as to debate for allowing actual thoughtful posts by those wishing to actually get into competitive shooting and expectations etc...

Some of, if not the best threads on AT are in this section.

I still would like to keep this section clean of the drivel that is common in some of the other sections. So far has been pretty good, and those that sneak by, usually only last a day or so.


Am pretty dissapointed in the 3d section. I 'think' I asked a fairly straightforward set of questions with 2 responses, one was what I would consider 'decent'. However that section has become or just is more of a 'Hey this 3d shoot is here. Back from this big shoot' etc... almost like a general chat for folks that do 3d. Not like what I would expect, advice, best practices, methods, 3d specific challenges to shooting and how to deal with them. Maybe I expect too much?


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## ron w

I predicted this would happen, people come here to post questions in hope of having someone who really knows what's up, answer their question. to be honest, there's not much difference between this forum and the "regular" one.


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## montigre

ron w said:


> I predicted this would happen, people come here to post questions in hope of having someone who really knows what's up, answer their question. to be honest, there's not much difference between this forum and the "regular" one.


Then, Ron, I suggest that instead of sitting there grumbling about the types of posts being made, that you step up to the plate and inform some of these posters that they have posted in the wrong forum and direct them to the appropriate place for their question. The maintenance of this forum is the responsibility of the entire membership and not just a few, or just the Mod. :wink: 

This forum will evolve into whatever *we* allow it to become....


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## Mestang99

I will admit, even I am still trying to figure out what questions belong here... There is a fine line that gets increasingly grey. Maybe we should get someone to start a topic of the week... Something to discuss and keep interest in this forum.


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## Rem7

Please don't ever make this a private forum, I get great enjoyment just coming in here to listen to all the complaining. :wink:


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## Blue X

Mestang99 said:


> I will admit, even I am still trying to figure out what questions belong here... There is a fine line that gets increasingly grey. Maybe we should get someone to start a topic of the week... Something to discuss and keep interest in this forum.



You tell me what you would like to hear about and ill type up something and start a new thread every week. 

Matter of fact, everyone with request pm me a topic you would like to discuss and I will do one every week for a month or so to see how it goes. I have so much archery coaching and training stuff I have already typed for people and saved in documents that I would never run out. 


Blue X


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## sharkred7

Blue X said:


> You tell me what you would like to hear about and ill type up something and start a new thread every week.
> 
> Matter of fact, everyone with request pm me a topic you would like to discuss and I will do one every week for a month or so to see how it goes. I have so much archery coaching and training stuff I have already typed for people and saved in documents that I would never run out.
> 
> 
> Blue X


That would be super cool. Kinda like the Swami threads that made you think outside the box. A new competition topic open for quality discussion with out bashing or berating.

Topics that interest me:

Training up to a major tournament.
Making the mental and physical switch from indoor to outdoor
The different ways to effectively weight your bow to improve holding pattern (maybe belongs elsewhere?)

Just a couple ideas I have, lets throw some more ideas out there.
John


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## Mahly

Just an FYI guys,

I have been moving threads to try to keep this group more focused.
It REALLY helps when I get a notification about a thread that doesn't belong.
I get on when I can, but I do have a real job and a wife so I don't catch them all right away.
I did combine and then move the target face questions. as well as several others that simply do not belong.
NOTE: I usually leave a link up when I move a post for a period of time (in case anyone was interested in the outcome of the question...target related or not) but those links will expire in time.
Some older threads I didn't move...if they seemed to have died out on their own, I just let sleeping dogs lay.

I DO inform every person who I close, or move a thread. And for the most part people have been very understanding, just probably didn't read the rules, or were on the wrong side of the grey area.

SOME threads some of us might think should be moved, others might disagree. I really only try to move or close the most obvious as there IS a bit of a grey area. YOUR posts on those threads can help guide those that start to become regulars here.
We have all seen it a couple of times. A thread that might not quite fit here...but we give them advice (as well as a hint that the questions might not belong here) and once in a while, the thread moves in a new direction that absolutely fits.

SO please continue to POLITELY inform posters of what you feel might be threads that are better placed in another forum, and please feel free to pass that on to me. Know that it might not get closed or moved....everything is a judgement call. But the more pro-active we all are, the better this forum will get.


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## hdracer

Aren't we a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. None of us in here are Mods but Mahly and yet some think that it is okay for them to tell others they do not belong here with their questions, and then ridicule those of us that answer them..."it's primarily the same people noted above who are perpetuating this trend by answering these threads. " I will answer whatever thread I feel like with or without your permission.

That is the type of elitist BS that DOES NOT belong here. This us still AT where Archers are supposed to help Archers, not belittle them by saying their questions are not important enough. If you don't like a post, report it and let the Mods handle it. You do not have the authority to do that and/or tell someone to take their questions elsewhere.

As for this particular Forum, everything asked in here can be found elsewhere on AT. There is really not a need for it...but it is cool that there is one being created. If the few that have elevated themselves above all others would stop acting like Mods things will work their way out. If you want to act like a Mod become a Mod.


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## RickT

Well said hdracer. The question has been asked at what level is an archer an intermediate-advanced competitor but none of these "elite" archers are willing to answer that question. Then again maybe some on here are just wannabe's that think they are better than they really are. Great way to promote the sport and help others trying to get started in competition archery.


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## ron w

montigre said:


> Then, Ron, I suggest that instead of sitting there grumbling about the types of posts being made, that you step up to the plate and inform some of these posters that they have posted in the wrong forum and direct them to the appropriate place for their question. The maintenance of this forum is the responsibility of the entire membership and not just a few, or just the Mod. :wink:
> 
> This forum will evolve into whatever *we* allow it to become....


 OK, i'll start with telling you that your comment has no bearing on the issue of "target shooting", what so ever. please take it to the appropriate forum area.


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## SonnyThomas

hdracer said:


> Aren't we a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. None of us in here are Mods but Mahly and yet some think that it is okay for them to tell others they do not belong here with their questions, and then ridicule those of us that answer them..."it's primarily the same people noted above who are perpetuating this trend by answering these threads. " I will answer whatever thread I feel like with or without your permission.
> 
> That is the type of elitist BS that DOES NOT belong here. This us still AT where Archers are supposed to help Archers, not belittle them by saying their questions are not important enough. If you don't like a post, report it and let the Mods handle it. You do not have the authority to do that and/or tell someone to take their questions elsewhere.
> 
> As for this particular Forum, everything asked in here can be found elsewhere on AT. There is really not a need for it...but it is cool that there is one being created. If the few that have elevated themselves above all others would stop acting like Mods things will work their way out. If you want to act like a Mod become a Mod.


I believe it was agreed we'd all monitor this forum. If we feel it's a inappropriate subject/question there's nothing saying we can't say so. Yes, we should notify Mahly, but then it's still our option. No one said someone's subject/question wasn't important enough, just not appropriate for this forum. And the biggie is; Though inappropriate we also have the option to answer a Poster's subject/question through PM. And I have replied as such in another Thread here.....


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> I predicted this would happen, people come here to post questions in hope of having someone who really knows what's up, answer their question. to be honest, there's not much difference between this forum and the "regular" one.


Well, something is working. We don't have 4 pages of 65 replies to "How do you nock a arrow?" 



ron w said:


> OK, i'll start with telling you that your comment has no bearing on the issue of "target shooting", what so ever. please take it to the appropriate forum area.


Good one, ron. Now, beings this Thread was begun by someone's oversight as many of us have noted, perhaps this entire Thread should be removed.


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## Mahly

Easy guys... As was mentioned, from the very beginning this forum was to be somewhat self moderated. 
As long as we can keep it polite, there is nothing wrong with suggesting that a thread doesn't quite fit this room.
As for what is "intermediate-advanced", it will always be a bit of a grey area... But for the most part, you know it when you see it (good enough for a judge).
When a thread is titled " I am just starting out..." Chances are it doesn't belong here.
There is a reason AT has more than 1 forum. There will always be some bleeding over. But there is a good reason for this one to exist.


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## Fury90flier

hdracer said:


> Aren't we a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. None of us in here are Mods we all mod this forumbut Mahly and yet some think that it is okay for them to tell others they do not belong here with their questionsit seems you don't know the rules for posting on AT...post in the proper section or someone will ask you to move it., and then ridicule those of us that answer them detailed answers only promote the wrongly placed threads..."it's primarily the same people noted above who are perpetuating this trend by answering these threads. " I will answer whatever thread I feel like with or without your permission...very good- so long as it applies. and for this area is approprate.
> 
> That is the type of elitist BS that DOES NOT belong here...you're right, general archery questions DO NOT belong here. People that can't follow those rules don't belong here. This us still AT where Archers are supposed to help Archers, not belittle them by saying their questions are not important enough.telling someone to place the thread in the proper location is not belittling them..."important enough"- again, read the rules. Don't like the rules- there are other sites If you don't like a post, report it and let the Mods handle it. You do not have the authority to do that and/or tell someone to take their questions elsewhere.yes we do...every one does
> 
> As for this particular Forum, everything asked in here can be found elsewhere on AT. There is really not a need for it...but it is cool that there is one being created. If the few that have elevated themselves above all others would stop acting like Mods things will work their way out. If you want to act like a Mod become a Mod.


It seems that you simply don't understand the rules.

While it's great to help others, promotion of creating threads in the wrong area doesn't help anyone.


If someone is offended by being told they posted in the wrong area....they should find a more thinsinned friendly site.


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## Ghostbuck

I was the person that asked about what to expect from the Metropolis shoot in this forum, and i am surprised that the question was borderline "grey area" for this forum. I appreciate those who took the time to anwser my question and am very grateful to have knowledgable people i can turn to. I hope someday to return the favor when i am one of the guys that has been there and done that. 

With that being said, reading your discussion on what you want this forum to be can be easily misconstrued as a bunch of elitist XXXXXX who don't want anyone in their club. Now, i know that isn't the case, and i can truly appreciate your vision for what you want this forum to be long term, but i can see how people would come to that conclusion.


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## Looney Bin

I'm coming to the conclusion there are no topics to be discussed in here.


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## montigre

Ghostbuck said:


> I was the person that asked about what to expect from the Metropolis shoot in this forum, and i am surprised that the question was borderline "grey area" for this forum. I appreciate those who took the time to anwser my question and am very grateful to have knowledgable people i can turn to. I hope someday to return the favor when i am one of the guys that has been there and done that.
> 
> With that being said, reading your discussion on what you want this forum to be can be easily misconstrued as a bunch of elitist XXXXXX who don't want anyone in their club. Now, i know that isn't the case, and i can truly appreciate your vision for what you want this forum to be long term, but i can see how people would come to that conclusion.


I was one of the individuals who felt your post would have received more direct answers in the 3D-specific forum as some of the individuals posting in that forum probably have had the experience with that type of competition to provide you with accurate answers. Although the object of your post pertained to a national level competition, the subject matter pertained not to improving as a competitive archer, but rather the basics of what to expect at your first national competition. It was solely on the basis of your subject matter that made me feel it should have been posted somewhere else. 

I have been participating in regional and national level competitions since 2009, but will be attending my first World Archery competition/USAT qualifier later this year. Although I do have questions about that particular type of shoot as a compound archer, I do not feel my questions should be asked here as it does not meet the guidelines of improving or adding to anyone's archery game even though I know there are posters here who have competed in such events. I may end up asking them in the fita forum if I cannot glean the answers from reading the relatively new world archery rules pertaining to compound competitions, but I'm going to do my own legwork first and post in the appropriate forum if I still feel a need. 

So, I am sorry you and some others feel there is an elitist attitude here and assure you that is not the case. However this forum was created specifically for the intermediate and advanced competitive shooters to discuss methods to improve their games and not for those who simply wish to reach the ears of shooters who have some years under their belts to answer their general questions or questions on easily researched subjects.


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## montigre

Looney Bin said:


> I'm coming to the conclusion there are no topics to be discussed in here.


That is not the case at all. However, I do not expect this forum to have 20 new threads started daily as most of the active members here are very busy practicing and competing and are not working on a gazillion tuning or form issues that need to be fixed yesterday. They are going through their routines, exploring new concepts, and spending hours a day actually at the range working things out. 

Occasionally we are all going to hit a brick wall and will need a new perspective to find our way around it or have a total epiphany about a shooting issue that may end up helping others in their practice or competitions--those are examples of some of the topics that should be discussed. They are not exclusionary, but rather, honed to meet the needs of the forum's intended membership.


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## bfisher

SonnyThomas said:


> "The members on here are perpetuating this by answering these types of questions instead of asking them to take it to the appropriate forum to get their questions answered."....*BS*
> 
> We've repeatedly replied of "needs to go to another forum in one manner or another" to many Posts and it's been going pretty good. Like that stupid 50 meter target. It was removed and the same person came back and posted it again.... The second time I gave of the bull's eye being 14 1/2" in diameter.
> 
> The one of going to his first 3D was asking of the national level. Okay, a toss up and I let it slide, but then a National is different from a club or state sanctioned 3D.


There's a 3D forum farther down the list and IMO that's where any questions or discussions about 3D should go.


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## hdracer

Fury90flier said:


> It seems that you simply don't understand the rules.
> 
> While it's great to help others, promotion of creating threads in the wrong area doesn't help anyone.
> 
> 
> If someone is offended by being told they posted in the wrong area....they should find a more thinsinned friendly site.


I know the rules quite well, and thank you for your veiled threat. :moon: Show me where it says that members can Mod the forums on their own? If you don't like it report it. What doesn't help is talking down to someone because you don't like the question.



montigre said:


> I was one of the individuals who felt your post would have received more direct answers in the 3D-specific forum as some of the individuals posting in that forum probably have had the experience with that type of competition to provide you with accurate answers. Although the object of your post pertained to a national level competition, the subject matter pertained not to improving as a competitive archer, but rather the basics of what to expect at your first national competition. It was solely on the basis of your subject matter that made me feel it should have been posted somewhere else.
> 
> I have been participating in regional and national level competitions since 2009, but will be attending my first World Archery competition/USAT qualifier later this year. Although I do have questions about that particular type of shoot as a compound archer, I do not feel my questions should be asked here as it does not meet the guidelines of improving or adding to anyone's archery game even though I know there are posters here who have competed in such events. I may end up asking them in the fita forum if I cannot glean the answers from reading the relatively new world archery rules pertaining to compound competitions, but I'm going to do my own legwork first and post in the appropriate forum if I still feel a need.
> 
> So, I am sorry you and some others feel there is an elitist attitude here and assure you that is not the case. *However this forum was created specifically for the intermediate and advanced competitive shooters to discuss methods to improve their games *and not for those who simply wish to reach the ears of shooters who have some years under their belts to answer their general questions or questions on easily researched subjects.


What establishes an intermediate/advanced competition shooter? The number of tournaments competed in? The scores shot? The level of tournaments shot? It would help to have a semi-structured guideline on who meets the forum criteria. Yes, they could search AT but that is not the easiest thing to do even for experienced AT users...i.e. the filters leave a bit to be desired.

I guess the thing that set me off is some of these answers and directions make this forum no better than the fanboys in GenPop. The "take your stupid questions elsewhere" type answers have no place in here anymore than they do in another forum. We all started archery at the same level and worked to get to where we are. We didn't like being talked down to then so why do we do it now?


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## montigre

hdracer said:


> What establishes an intermediate/advanced competition shooter? The number of tournaments competed in? The scores shot? The level of tournaments shot? It would help to have a semi-structured guideline on who meets the forum criteria.


Like I mentioned in my posts, it is not the individual posting a thread or their personal archery accomplishments that has "to fit", it is the subject matter being posted about that either fits or does not fit in this forum. For a very recent example, a question of how to set up a basic set of v-bars would be best served in the General forum. However, how side bar/weight placement effects one's sight picture or shot dynamics would probably edge into the grey area and would be okay for this forum. Another example would be an announcement about attending one's first competition is a General forum topic, while what was learned about that person's mental game or or specific difficulties faced while at that first competition could easily fit in here. 

With regard to the membership assisting with Mod'ing the forum, please reread Mahly's post in this thread (#15) in its entirety. This forum was set up with the intent of its members having the ability to self-moderate to a degree. :wink:


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## ron w

what you guys don't seem to understand, is that to the average shooter or forumite, being told his question doesn't belong in this forum, is telling him this forum is "too good" to answer his question...."elitist attitude" has been projected, just by keeping this forum "target only", as we all decided. there's no way t avoid this from happening, short of actually making this guys perception of this forum come true. every time any one of us direct a post to some other area, we a re supporting that attitude....that is what I predicted would happen.
it's damned if we do, damned if we don't.
possibly, a sub-forum, for those who are interested in the target sports, but are at the entry level, might be included. that way the questions that are from people who only want target discipline oriented answers, have a place to post entry level questions still, it requires those who are at the entry level to realize their question is in fact "entry level" and that's where the problem develops.


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## montigre

You're correct, Ron. Perhaps the only was to navigate these waters without making novice target shooters feel alienated is to have a beginner/novice sub forum for the more general target archery questions. 

Personally, I do wish something like that existed when I started out, but the great posters on AT had already begun their mass exodus, so the information had already become very sparse and not easily found via search by then. It surely would have made my first few years as a competitive archer a lot easier and would likely have prevented me from picking up a few bad habits along the way.


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## TNMAN

A target forum that excludes entry level questions and shooters is not in the best interest of archery, and not in accordance with target tradition. That's all I'll say on this.


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## Fury90flier

ron w said:


> what you guys don't seem to understand, is that to the average shooter or forumite, being told his question doesn't belong in this forum, is telling him this forum is "too good" to answer his question We've all posted stuff in the wrong area, so what. Move it to the proper location. Anyone having an issue with this has a personal problem. If someone feels that they aren't good enough for this forum, they might not be...which is fine. I'm no Pro so guess what, I'm not going to post in the "PRO" section....."elitist attitude" has been projected, just by keeping this forum "target only", as we all decided. good. This section isn't for the beginners postings, general questions etc that apply across the board in archery- if they don't like it, change the channel there's no way t avoid this from happening, short of actually making this guys perception of this forum come true. every time any one of us direct a post to some other area, we a re supporting that attitude....that is what I predicted would happen.
> it's damned if we do, damned if we don't. not at all. What we're doing is helping to clean up this site. So many wrong postings- for example, "what truck should I get" does not belong in archery discussions.
> possibly, a sub-forum, for those who are interested in the target sports, but are at the entry level, might be included. FITA, 3D will take care of this... that way the questions that are from people who only want target discipline oriented answers, have a place to post entry level questions still, it requires those who are at the entry level to realize their question is in fact "entry level" and that's where the problem develops.



keeping this site clean and having threads in their proper location is a job of everyone. If you don't understand that you can talk to a mod directly...no need to provide you a list of rules.


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## SonnyThomas

TNMAN said:


> A target forum that excludes entry level questions and shooters is not in the best interest of archery, and not in accordance with target tradition. That's all I'll say on this.


I have to agree, but then Intermediate means you have your archery feet on the ground. Again, that the subject or question may not be for this forum does not mean that we can't answer by means of PM... Amazingly, one on one seems to work...I mean no flack by others, no interruptions by others and you can make head way.


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## SonnyThomas

bfisher said:


> There's a 3D forum farther down the list and IMO that's where any questions or discussions about 3D should go.


Yes, Barry, but the 3D forum is.....so Pro National...Much like Padgett's reply. So I PMed him and gave a full account of my first National. As the Poster thought my account was more in line with what he thought. I gave of what I thought bad and good. Yep, great as Nationals may be I'll probably not attend another through what I experienced.....


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## Looney Bin

montigre said:


> That is not the case at all. However, I do not expect this forum to have 20 new threads started daily as most of the active members here are very busy practicing and competing and are not working on a gazillion tuning or form issues that need to be fixed yesterday. They are going through their routines, exploring new concepts, and spending hours a day actually at the range working things out.
> 
> Occasionally we are all going to hit a brick wall and will need a new perspective to find our way around it or have a total epiphany about a shooting issue that may end up helping others in their practice or competitions--those are examples of some of the topics that should be discussed. They are not exclusionary, but rather, honed to meet the needs of the forum's intended membership.


So you want a forum nobody uses??? Except on rare occasion?? This place would be lucky to get one really informative thread a week let alone 20 a day.

I understand to some degree where you want this to go, but to think people that compete on a regular basis aren't constantly adjusting, tinkering, tweaking the tune of there bow and there form is foolish. It seems like Gillingham changes stabilizer setups for every tournament. 

I personally have not shot anything that resembles a tournament in a good long while. I took a few years off. Even from indoor leagues. I'm now working my form and indoor game around to hopefully compete this coming winter with aspirations of shooting Vegas, Lancaster and maybe a few others. I practice just about daily. While I shoot solid scores for an intermediate level archer and have studied various aspect of tuning, form and the shot process at great detail. I certainly have not studied them all and don't know every nuanced detail of them. Just because someone thinks this topic should already be completely and indepthly understood by a certain level archer doesn't mean him or her have ever truly covered the topic.

If this forum is only for trouble shooting your personal shooting problems and not about furthering knowledge with indepth topic discussion then why is it here?

I personally have given some thought to just a straight begginer target archery forum in place of this one with a forum like you want this one to be as a sub forum inside of it. There are far more beginners on AT these days who need more help than you or I do. That would keep down the number of threads you guys don't want as sub forums see far less use than the main ones do.

I would like to have intelligent conversation about a variety of mid to advanced level tuning, form and shot process stuff but usually refrain from posting it because some of the the more knowledgeable archers state that its in the wrong forum. Even if I'm not personally working on these issues I find the conversation interesting.


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## Fury90flier

There is no elitest attitueds here...just people that don't want to filter through general archery discussions....hence the subject name herein.

"So you want a forum nobody uses??? Except on rare occasion?? *This place would be lucky to get one really informative thread a week *let alone 20 a day."


You mean getting rid of the junk threads that belong in the "General Archery" section, perfect.. along the lines of what WE wanted this section to be.

Those that don't like it- move on to another section.


Seems that you're going out of your way to be combative, seeing as you say you know the rules.


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## Looney Bin

Fury90flier said:


> There is no elitest attitueds here...just people that don't want to filter through general archery discussions....hence the subject name herein.
> 
> "So you want a forum nobody uses??? Except on rare occasion?? *This place would be lucky to get one really informative thread a week *let alone 20 a day."
> 
> 
> You mean getting rid of the junk threads that belong in the "General Archery" section, perfect.. along the lines of what WE wanted this section to be.
> 
> Those that don't like it- move on to another section.
> 
> 
> Seems that you're going out of your way to be combative, seeing as you say you know the rules.



I promise you I'm not being combative at least I don't feel that way. You are reading a combative tone into my words just as I read an Elitist tone in some other peoples posts. In all honesty I'm confused more than anything. I don't understand why some of you people speak up about moving some topics but not others that to me are at close to the same level.


----------



## montigre

Looney Bin said:


> So you want a forum nobody uses??? Except on rare occasion?? This place would be lucky to get one really informative thread a week let alone 20 a day. And what would be wrong with that? There is really no need to have multiple threads posted just for the sake of hearing oneself chatter.
> 
> I understand to some degree where you want this to go, but to think people that compete on a regular basis aren't constantly adjusting, tinkering, tweaking the tune of there bow and there form is foolish. It seems like Gillingham changes stabilizer setups for every tournament. I did not say they didn't tinker--I know we do quite a lot, what I did say is that there is little need to address a forum to ask what to do to as part of our usual practice/training routine--most know or have a pretty good idea what needs to be done to tighten a group a little or better balance out a bow without asking for the how tos on a site like this--I guess that's part of being an intermediate/advanced archer. The pros, since you bring them into this, do not need to ask a ton of questions when they hit a brick wall to find out how to work through it--they have their established networks and coaches that they go to for advice or to have something looked at and they have a pretty good idea from the outset what the issue might be. This forum is supposed to serve a similar function for the intermediate and advanced competitive shooters and was never intended to be an avenue to teach someone how to become a competition archer. That is what the General forum and specialty forums are designed to do in the absence of a hired coach or instructor.
> 
> I personally have not shot anything that resembles a tournament in a good long while. I took a few years off. Even from indoor leagues. I'm now working my form and indoor game around to hopefully compete this coming winter with aspirations of shooting Vegas, Lancaster and maybe a few others. I practice just about daily. While I shoot solid scores for an intermediate level archer and have studied various aspect of tuning, form and the shot process at great detail. I certainly have not studied them all and don't know every nuanced detail of them. Just because someone thinks this topic should already be completely and indepthly understood by a certain level archer doesn't mean him or her have ever truly covered the topic. So you're telling us that topics like "Is my FOC too high", "Lens magnification", "Holding the release differently", "Ignore pin while aiming", "Getting used to a new bow" and others like these are going to be any benefit to the more advanced shooter?
> 
> If this forum is only for trouble shooting your personal shooting problems and not about furthering knowledge with indepth topic discussion then why is it here? It is here to benefit the intermediate/advanced competition shooters and not to teach a novice how to shoot a tournament or how to go about learning how to tune their equipment. Again, that is what the other already-established forums are for.
> 
> I personally have given some thought to just a straight begginer target archery forum in place of this one with a forum like you want this one to be as a sub forum inside of it. There are far more beginners on AT these days who need more help than you or I do. That would keep down the number of threads you guys don't want as sub forums see far less use than the main ones do.
> 
> I would like to have intelligent conversation about a variety of mid to advanced level tuning, form and shot process stuff but usually refrain from posting it because some of the the more knowledgeable archers state that its in the wrong forum. Even if I'm not personally working on these issues I find the conversation interesting.There have already been several quite interesting mid-level topics posted since the inception of this forum, but unfortunately, they have fallen to the lower sections or even to lower pages here by all of the beginner threads that have been posted over them.


It does seem that you're just getting upset because you and others, including myself, have to moderate what we post about to keep it within the guidelines of this forum. I personally like not having to wade through pages of drivel to get to the meat and potatoes posts. If you don't like it, then I"m sorry, but do not wish to to see the the values of this forum lowered just to make a few feel happier in their shoes.


----------



## Blue X

you know folks its a long way up the ladder, whats elementary for a guy at a 59x level may be hard to understand for someone at a 45x level. 

Try to keep that in mind when you see lesser important question that dont immediately raise your scores, because they may immediately raise the persons who started the thread. 

Contentment and patience are both rungs on that ladder, use those instances to practice those two great qualities that every top archery has to learn. Lets not put stumbling blocks in the path of those who are trying to learn. We are all climbing the same ladder not elitist or beginners, but good people who are all trying to learn to shoot better. 

Peace to all. 

Blue X


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## Looney Bin

montigre said:


> It does seem that you're just getting upset because you and others, including myself, have to moderate what we post about to keep it within the guidelines of this forum. I personally like not having to wade through pages of drivel to get to the meat and potatoes posts. If you don't like it, then I"m sorry, but do not wish to to see the the values of this forum lowered just to make a few feel happier in their shoes.



You listed a bunch of threads in red in response to my post. No I don't believe some of those threads benefit an advanced shooter but nobody spoke up about them. Its the inconsistent nature of what people say needs to be moved that's confusing.

Rev posted a Stab setup question that you responded to quite a bit. The thread ended up containing a lot of good info in the long run but the base question I would have thought most of you would have wanted bounced to gen pop.

I still don't know where you guys determine the line??


----------



## montigre

Looney Bin said:


> You listed a bunch of threads in red in response to my post. No I don't believe some of those threads benefit an advanced shooter but nobody spoke up about them. Its the inconsistent nature of what people say needs to be moved that's confusing.
> Rev posted a Stab setup question that you responded to quite a bit. The thread ended up containing a lot of good info in the long run but the base question I would have thought most of you would have wanted bounced to gen pop.
> I still don't know where you guys determine the line??


You are correct, no one spoke up about those posts that I listed likely because they had already been flooded with responses by people who were just answering the questions without any regard as to the content of the post. With people working full time jobs and then heading out to the range for a few hours of practice and doing all of the things needed to keep a household running, there are going to be those posts that slip though the cracks and go undirected--that does not mean they were appropriate. 

I initially ignored Rev's post about the stab because it did not fit, but after he posted his video, I realized several fit and form issues he was having (outside of the stabilizer thing) that squarely placed his query into the forum's grey area. In fact, I prefaced my initial response to him by stating, "This is starting to veer into Coach's Corner territory..." 

I not only shoot competitively, but I also do a lot of teaching of beginner/intermediate archers, so perhaps it is because of this perspective that I do not find it overly difficult to tell when a thread should be redirected. Some I thought should have been moved were, some were left on and evolved into a good discussion while others yet were left on that devolved into "what's the best" for this or that... Sometimes it's a crap shoot. There is a grey area here that is not present in other forums that we have to learn to recognize and work with. The forum is still new and is still evolving.


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## N7709K

This is why I feel puttin a line in the sand of what is considered intermediate is needed- is it shooting 300's or shooting 50x's? Or is it an expierence thing? Or is it an entitlement issue?


Y'all do realize high level discussion won't happen, right?


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## ron w

it's hard to say that putting a value of score or x count qualifies what can and can't be posted here. if that were the rule, I would not be posting here , as after my stroke, i'm certainly no 300 shooter, or 50 x shooter....far from it....but i'll bet,.... and not to brag....i'm more qualified to post and answer questions in this forum than most of the guys in it.
there are plenty of entry level issues that are pertinent to target archery specifically....they should not go ignored or be segregated from the topic substance of "target archery".
the problem is that at the entry level, so many questions can be applied to general shooting as well as target shooting.....a qualifier of " interest area" might be a little more "politically correct"...then, if the question is not in any way "target oriented" we would be clear to re=direct the question. the problem then is to be able to interpret the direction of the question. either way, it's going to be hard to k police the forum without offending people.


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## N7709K

Score puts everyone on the defensive it seems- I keep bringing it up because it denotes a cut and dried measurement. It gives a defined cutoff as to what is beginner and as to what is "intermediate", whether or not you feel it beat vouches for your cred. Without a set "benchmark" the "elitist" attitude of I'm a target shooter won't go away- whether or not it's correct. That said "elitist" has been thrown around way too freely; if restrictions are implicated " you're elitist attitude isn't what we want, go away! But by god you need to help me with my issues at the drop of a hat!".

Honestly I don't care what the measuring system utilizes, but there needs to be a set line as to what is beginner and what is not. Where I'm at with my shot and how I put is forth gets brushed off because it's too simple, when the fact of the matter is my shot is exactly where it should be- not to stroke my ego, just an example. When bad advise is constantly offered up... When does calling foul actual have clout?


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## ron w

yah, I know what you mean, we shouldn't have to worry about someone thinking we're being "elitist", just because there is forum specific to target shooting issues. I know guys that shoot close to perfect games all the time, but couldn't tell a kid how to tie his shoe and wouldn't be able to explain the difference between open and closed stance. a question from someone like that about stance, for instance, might be considered elementary and re directed, yet the shooter is far from entry level.
I do agree that in order to keep this forum from becoming just another "general archery forum", there should be some kind of qualification to it's participation or postings. score most certainly does "cut and dry" the question, no doubt. I guess then, not to be sarcastic, but,.... i'm in the wrong forum.
it's a grey area, that we might have to just let run it's course for a while and see just how far "outside the box", it gets....and just how well the board polices itself.
that said,.... I will comment,..... that it seems to be headed in the wrong "content direction" as it is currently developing. it could be that we need to simply not worry about who thinks this forum is elitist and who doesn't...and let the guys that realize and acknowledge it's value, enjoy advantage of the level of it's core participants. as you state, "without a benchmark of some sort", "elitist" is going to be assumed.


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## chevman

hdracer said:


> Aren't we a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. None of us in here are Mods but Mahly and yet some think that it is okay for them to tell others they do not belong here with their questions, and then ridicule those of us that answer them..."it's primarily the same people noted above who are perpetuating this trend by answering these threads. " I will answer whatever thread I feel like with or without your permission.
> 
> That is the type of elitist BS that DOES NOT belong here. This us still AT where Archers are supposed to help Archers, not belittle them by saying their questions are not important enough. If you don't like a post, report it and let the Mods handle it. You do not have the authority to do that and/or tell someone to take their questions elsewhere.
> 
> As for this particular Forum, everything asked in here can be found elsewhere on AT. There is really not a need for it...but it is cool that there is one being created. If the few that have elevated themselves above all others would stop acting like Mods things will work their way out. If you want to act like a Mod become a Mod.


wrong forum. try the trouble makers forum


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## cbrunson

I am starting to agree with the early naysayers.


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## Rick!

The consistent drama and hand wringing over this subject is entertaining. Can all the similar threads in this forum be combined into one large [email protected]$&h session so it takes less time to search?


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## SonnyThomas

I vote to pull this Thread. We're chewing, rehashing, explaining and doing no good. The Poster has replied once. So maybe he got answers that tucked his tail or just plain left...and I don't care which. You start something stand up for it or apologize is the way I see it.

Heck if a simple 5 cent question comes up, answer it and move on. And there's always General Archery Information for anyone to look to. So point it out if you think it will cut the numerous replies....


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## Mahly

My opinions/ $.02
A score based system, while cut and dried as a qualification, would not help. One can be VERY knowledgable and still not be a great shooter.... N7709 is a great example. I could also be an example. I have studied archery for decades. Yet I am lucky in my current living situation if I get to shoot more than once a month. I'm a 300 45-50x shooter. On a bad day I'll hit 299 or even 298. No way I could say in average 300 50x.
It's the quality of the question/comment that we should be regulation here.
What is "target" archery? Isn't everything we aim at a target? Getting into int-adv comp archery. I think we are looking for the more detailed questions.
If your shooting your very first league or tournament, your likely not worried about advanced comp archery. 
If you need to ask what brand of bow/arrow/release to buy, that's not advanced. 
Here's maybe an example of beginner vs. intermediate
Beginner. What hinge should I buy?
Intermediate. What releases have different speeds "heat" after the click available, or what is a release with a fast click, or slow click. Are there releases with an adjustable click?

The beginner is looking where to start, the intermediate is looking at a more specific attribute to help get a couple of Xs. 

There will ALWAYS be some "elitist" stigma associated with a forum like this. By definition some questions are NOT "good enough" that it why we have more than 1 forum.
I honestly feel we could do with a beginners target forum... But that's another topic.
Yes, most people here actually do want to help beginners and grow the sport. I get the feeling I am not the only one who still goes to Gen pop, and offers advice. There are TONS of good shooters in Gen pop, one needs to sift through a bit more to get the best answers, but I think in a way, that in itself can be a good experience for a beginner (if a little daunting). 

I look in this forum, and see a huge improvement over Gen pop in many ways.

Very little "fan boy" debating.
Very little in the way of vendors pushing products.
Very little in the way of vicious personal attacks... In fact most light attacks are in threads like this one.
Very little in the "how's my form" or who makes the best bow?

There is a lot to gain in this forum. I think it is a great resource for ALL levels... one of the reasons I volunteered to Mod this forum.

I think some of us may be taking ourselves a little more seriously than needed, and we are debating about truly small potatoes.


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## Mahly

SonnyThomas said:


> I vote to pull this Thread. We're chewing, rehashing, explaining and doing no good. The Poster has replied once. So maybe he got answers that tucked his tail or just plain left...and I don't care which. You start something stand up for it or apologize is the way I see it.
> 
> Heck if a simple 5 cent question comes up, answer it and move on. And there's always General Archery Information for anyone to look to. So point it out if you think it will cut the numerous replies....


I see your point, but think there is some good to take from everyone's point of view.
We don't need to endlessly say the same things, but it is good they have been said.


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## stromdidilly

SonnyThomas said:


> I vote to pull this Thread. We're chewing, rehashing, explaining and doing no good. The Poster has replied once. So maybe he got answers that tucked his tail or just plain left...and I don't care which. You start something stand up for it or apologize is the way I see it.
> 
> Heck if a simple 5 cent question comes up, answer it and move on. And there's always General Archery Information for anyone to look to. So point it out if you think it will cut the numerous replies....


Absolutely agree. As a constant lurker in this forum, I find it quite funny and a bit sad that this thread has more views and responses than 90%+ of the other threads in this sections. Oops, probably should have posted that in Gen AD :wink:


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## cbrunson

Perhaps instead of a few members policing the forum, they should just pm you or another mod to get threads moved rather than taking it upon themselves, and acting like junior forum cops. Other members might take that as part of the "elitist" mentality. I know I find that to be more annoying than a couple of potentially misplaced topics in an otherwise dead forum.


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## Mahly

I'm open to that, but just because someone feels it might not fit, once a couple of replies are in, often it doesn't pay to move it.
If anything, a few threads with some friendly direction can help others reading those threads see what side of the grey area their question might be on.
And again, there will be those that disagree as to whether the thread fits or not. I prefer to move the most obvious threads, and err on the side of lenience.


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## CarlV

SonnyThomas said:


> The Poster has replied once. So maybe he got answers that tucked his tail or just plain left...and I don't care which. You start something stand up for it or apologize is the way I see it.


I am the OP, Sonny. I haven't tucked my tail and left. I am standing up for the opinions I origionally posted, and I'm not apologizing for what my thoughts are either.

I thank you for your opinions and views, which I greatly treasure. Your archery experience is vast and I really like it when you share it with us.

I still think that it's important in this forum to immediately tell people that it's inappropriate to ask what color wrap should they should use.

I don't have to be politically correct either. Just tell them to move it to the General area.

Call me an elitist, I'll be honored. I shoot well, but normally not well enough to beat the top pro's.


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## SonnyThomas

Carl, thanks for getting back in the Thread and thanks for the compliment. I still think some of us do "weeding" as best we can. And so far it hasn't been a "run away" for Posts that slip through. Well, except for this Thread  

Wished I was experienced. Then I'd know what I was doing wrong today


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## N7709K

Just to clarify mahly- are you sayin that I'm a good example because I know my stuff but cannot shoot well? Just trying to clarify?


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## jmann28

N7709K said:


> Just to clarify mahly- are you sayin that I'm a good example because I know my stuff but cannot shoot well? Just trying to clarify?


Yes Jacob, he's saying you suck


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## Rolo

N7709K said:


> Just to clarify mahly- are you sayin that I'm a good example because I know my stuff but cannot shoot well? Just trying to clarify?


I was kinda wondering if that was REALLY what he was saying or not. If that is what he was saying, then that calls a whole bunch into question, none of which has to do with your knowledge or ability behind a bow. That, I know, some obviously may not. :wink:


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## hdracer

chevman said:


> wrong forum. try the trouble makers forum


Couldn't find one. But my post still stands and I stand by it, like it or not. It is not about having a Target Shooters forum, it is how the answers are handed out by a few in their bully pulpit. I guess I struck a nerve.:binkybaby: C'est la vie!


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## Longshore

Mahly, calling Jacob, or anyone, out like that is bs and completely uncalled for. That dude can flat out shoot and definitely has a ton of info to pass on to people. Over the past year or so he has taken me from a vegas 290 shooter to a 299-300 average and I very appreciative of his help. Comments like that are going to keep the higher level shooters from getting on AT. Lets keep the focus on helping people get better.


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## N7709K

Mahly- why do you feel having a cut and dried definition of what an "intermediate" archer in will not help? Right now the issue seems to be what should and should not be allowed/covered; there is no fixed system to gauge this off of other than what you personally choose to allow... The numbers I threw out were more or less arbitrary- but depending on whom you ask a 300 50x shooter may be a "very good shooter" and they may also be only intermediate at best. 

There is more to being knowledgeable than being able to shoot, i'm not arguing with that, but at a point it takes being able to shoot said scores to help people progress and work with the issues that arise at that point in the game. on the equip side this becomes much more apperent; its kinda hard to nock tune, or group tune, or tell if your arrows are dynamically optimal for the game at hand, or dl is correct for the face you're shooting, etc, if you aren't at that level of shooting... sure you can pass on second hand what you have picked up, or pass on what you have heard pro's say but without the first hand of actually being at that level you cannot do it justice. 

@Rolo, Jmann, Longshore- if that is indeed how he meant it i'm gonna take that as i'm not wanted and that my insight and experience is no longer wanted... atleast in this outlet, good thing i frequent others... right steve ?


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## Rolo

N7709K said:


> @Rolo, Jmann, Longshore- if that is indeed how he meant it i'm gonna take that as i'm not wanted and that my insight and experience is no longer wanted... atleast in this outlet, good thing i frequent others... right steve ?


If it is, in one fell uneducated, I'm a powerful 'Mod' swoop, it has effectively killed this forum...not that it wasn't well on it's way from the outset...


----------



## Mahly

Longshore said:


> Mahly, calling Jacob, or anyone, out like that is bs and completely uncalled for. That dude can flat out shoot and definitely has a ton of info to pass on to people. Over the past year or so he has taken me from a vegas 290 shooter to a 299-300 average and I very appreciative of his help. Comments like that are going to keep the higher level shooters from getting on AT. Lets keep the focus on helping people get better.


Whoa whoa whoa!!! I am not "calling him out"!!! 
Re reading this, I confused him with Ron W ( no offense to either shooter... I'm doing this on an iPhone and it's a [email protected]&%# to find the post I thought was Jacob. My mistake. 
As for Ron W, HE said that he is not longer a 300 shooter. I was re-iterating that it would be a travesty to tell him he can't post because his scores are not high enough.

I am fully aware that the BOTH dudEs know their stuff, and are assets to this forum.


My apologies to Jacob, but the rest of that post still stands.


----------



## Mahly

N7709K said:


> Just to clarify mahly- are you sayin that I'm a good example because I know my stuff but cannot shoot well? Just trying to clarify?






jmann28 said:


> Yes Jacob, he's saying you suck






Rolo said:


> I was kinda wondering if that was REALLY what he was saying or not. If that is what he was saying, then that calls a whole bunch into question, none of which has to do with your knowledge or ability behind a bow. That, I know, some obviously may not. :wink:


Just to clarify again, I confused a post of his with someone else. I was not trying to call anyone out. 

I apologize for the error and confusion it has caused.


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## Longshore

That's cool Mahly. It's all good. Jacob is a huge asset to this place. I don't know who that Ron W guy is but he's got some really great info as well. I personally find this forum very useful and there has been some really good threads on here. Lets keep it positive, encouraging and informative. Peace.


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## dua lam pa

Personally , I feel his follow thru is a bit much , however his views are very good in my opinion.


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## ron w

about the only way people that really know what's up are going to quite posting, is if they get a bunch of criticism about what they post when they try to help someone, or get sick of all the senseless bickering and bantering, that goes on about a post.....just ask all the honest to goodness, best in the world, real pros that used to frequent this forum.


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## skynight

Half of this forum is threads complaining about the content of the forum.


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## Mahly

Looking at the 1st 26 threads that show up on my phone, I see 2 about the forum itself.

Being a VERY new forum, some discussion about how it should be run is to be expected.


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## ron w

the qualification of score wouldn't stop me from posting, I think everyone here would appreciate my contributions and I know,.... I know what i'm talking bout.
as is aid earlier, a score has less association with someone's ability to participate than their yearning for good helpful information, the trick is to glean out which questions are directed at target and which are not. the camophlage is that allot of entry level questions can be directed at hunting or target,......it is that issue, that we have to find a solution for.
my suggestion, is that we don't get too quick to redirect questions, but rather, let a few questions from the same guy be asked to cipher the direction of his interest. this, after all, a new forum and it will take some time to be recognized that you won't ....or shouldn't attempt to.... get your hunting or 3d questions answered here.
within a few questions, you can tell if a fellow is a newbe shooter/hunter/3d'er, looking for basic archery advise, or not. many times, that "elitist attitude" is built on the speed and words, a question is redirected with.
with that said, I feel questions that are asked about equipment ...if allowed at all... should be allowed from any genre, "accuracy" demands that all bows are target bows,...some are just green.


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## zdogk9

Ron, 
Well said, A lot of the "entry level" questions can also be addressed from the viewpoint of an accomplished archer, which would be of benefit to all concerned. The person answering would have to examine their thoughts and experience which is never a bad thing, the person asking would get an answer that in all likelihood goes beyond the very basic information they asked for, and possibly an explanation as to why the person answering uses the method they do. What Bow Should I get, and forty zillion other questions of this ilk are obviously out of place on this sub-forum and tedious at best in the general archery forum.


----------



## BowHuntnKY

skynight said:


> Half of this forum is threads complaining about the content of the forum.


Exactly...I dont dare post usually because...god forbid im not advanced enough....everytime I click a thread, its just someone saying this or that dont belong here...


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## ron w

i'm just a schmuck that really loves archery, knows way more than my capabilities to shoot as good as what I know and has the nack to have a very clear understanding of the finer elements involved, that produces good shooting !. in a few other posts about how we all got our start, I've told my story, and I was just lucky enough to be taught by one of the best in the country at the time. just payin' it forward !. 
thanks for the good words.


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## Ninja of Kaos

I would just like to throw out there that when I first saw this forum and how people kept requesting threads to be moved, I was of the same mentality of some of the posters here that this forum is full of 'elitists.'

However after watching this forum develop and grow and these 'elitists' weed out some many of the posts in this forum, I have found that the remaining posts are very beneficial and helpful to read. The 'elitists' are simply trying to discuss the advanced aspects of archery, and are really not elitists at all as so many try to point out.

I am by no means an advanced archer, rarely do I ever feel that I have any information of to contribute to this forum, but I think that helps me out even more. There are many aspects discussed in this forum that I have never even considered and when I read them I am able to take that concept and try to experiment with it on my own.

For that reason alone, I really think that is forum should continue because it helps archer's like me that are target oriented but don't necessarily know the right questions to help improve their game.

Just my two cents...


----------



## CarlV

Ninja of Kaos said:


> The 'elitists' are simply trying to discuss the advanced aspects of archery, and are really not elitists at all as so many try to point out.


This ^^^^

I'm going to find a T shirt company that will make me one with the word "Elitist" on it. I'm starting to like that title.

Oh, by the way, which is better: white wraps, red wraps, or no wraps at all with a red bow and red and black strings?


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## hooks

CarlV said:


> This ^^^^
> 
> I'm going to find a T shirt company that will make me one with the word "Elitist" on it. I'm starting to like that title.
> 
> Oh, by the way, which is better: white wraps, red wraps, or no wraps at all with a red bow and red and black strings?


----------



## hooks

Ninja of Kaos said:


> I would just like to throw out there that when I first saw this forum and how people kept requesting threads to be moved, I was of the same mentality of some of the posters here that this forum is full of 'elitists.'
> 
> However after watching this forum develop and grow and these 'elitists' weed out some many of the posts in this forum, I have found that the remaining posts are very beneficial and helpful to read. The 'elitists' are simply trying to discuss the advanced aspects of archery, and are really not elitists at all as so many try to point out.
> 
> I am by no means an advanced archer, rarely do I ever feel that I have any information of to contribute to this forum, but I think that helps me out even more. There are many aspects discussed in this forum that I have never even considered and when I read them I am able to take that concept and try to experiment with it on my own.
> 
> For that reason alone, I really think that is forum should continue because it helps archer's like me that are target oriented but don't necessarily know the right questions to help improve their game.
> 
> Just my two cents...


In reference to the advanced aspects of the thread Finding the "Zone" posted recently in this forum, I found this....from 2002

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5161&highlight=finding+zone

I miss those guys that used to post here!

What part of Nevada?


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## steve morley

Seems these days working hard at your game to be the best shot you can be, gets you an "Elitist" label on some of these Forums :mg:


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## Mahly

By definition, some questions/topics (yes, even some target questions) don't "fit" here, and that will keep some from posting.
That is kind of the point though...a focused discussion group discussing topics that are more advanced than basic gear or tuning or form questions.
Does that make us Elite? To some maybe. I would think the "Pro" section would be closer to Elite, and this is for people trying to get there, and those wanting to help serious shooters take their game to the next level.
Yes the post count will be down compared to Gen pop... that also is the point.

As we see, there is a side benefit. Not to just int-adv comp shooters. More novice shooters can come and maybe see some threads they never thought to ask about. Learning stuff they didn't have to wait until it becomes a road block for them. Hell, that might even spark a more advanced question from them.

I don't look at topics in the light of "are the GOOD enough". I ask do they FIT? Some very good questions don't fit here. I just wish people would realize WHY we want a focused group, and stop using labels to insult those that wish to help keep it focused.

We haven't moved anyone out...all are welcome. only threads that don't fit are moved...and save for extreme violations, links have been left up for a few days after the posts have been moved so people interested in the topic can still find it.

I LOVE this forum! I spend the vast majority of my "AT" time here. I still check out gen pop...but not as much as I used to. I think this is a great forum with room to grow. One of the things that makes it great (to me) is that it is focused on an area of archery I am very interested in. I hope we can all learn a lot here...no matter your skill level.


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## SonnyThomas

:thumbs_up


Mahly said:


> By definition, some questions/topics (yes, even some target questions) don't "fit" here, and that will keep some from posting.
> That is kind of the point though...a focused discussion group discussing topics that are more advanced than basic gear or tuning or form questions.
> Does that make us Elite? To some maybe. I would think the "Pro" section would be closer to Elite, and this is for people trying to get there, and those wanting to help serious shooters take their game to the next level.
> Yes the post count will be down compared to Gen pop... that also is the point.
> 
> As we see, there is a side benefit. Not to just int-adv comp shooters. More novice shooters can come and maybe see some threads they never thought to ask about. Learning stuff they didn't have to wait until it becomes a road block for them. Hell, that might even spark a more advanced question from them.
> 
> I don't look at topics in the light of "are the GOOD enough". I ask do they FIT? Some very good questions don't fit here. I just wish people would realize WHY we want a focused group, and stop using labels to insult those that wish to help keep it focused.
> 
> We haven't moved anyone out...all are welcome. only threads that don't fit are moved...and save for extreme violations, links have been left up for a few days after the posts have been moved so people interested in the topic can still find it.
> 
> I LOVE this forum! I spend the vast majority of my "AT" time here. I still check out gen pop...but not as much as I used to. I think this is a great forum with room to grow. One of the things that makes it great (to me) is that it is focused on an area of archery I am very interested in. I hope we can all learn a lot here...no matter your skill level.


:thumbs_up


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## Fury90flier

steve morley said:


> Seems these days working hard at your game to be the best shot you can be, gets you an "Elitist" label on some of these Forums :mg:


Exactly.

And, if you don't agree with someone or start to engague in a debate or using devels advocate type discussions, your a troll.


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## CarlV

hooks said:


>


Love the bow, Hooks!



Mahly said:


> As we see, there is a side benefit. Not to just int-adv comp shooters. More novice shooters can come and maybe see some threads they never thought to ask about. Learning stuff they didn't have to wait until it becomes a road block for them.


Good one Mahly.

I consider myself in the mid "advanced" shooter level, and I'm very interested in some of the topics that have come up. Not only the topics, but the in-depth answers and follow-on discussions from some of the best and most knowledgeable archers in the world. I absorb that stuff!


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## Ninja of Kaos

hooks said:


> In reference to the advanced aspects of the thread Finding the "Zone" posted recently in this forum, I found this....from 2002
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5161&highlight=finding+zone
> 
> I miss those guys that used to post here!
> 
> What part of Nevada?


Sparks. On the highway towards pyramid lake


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## hooks

Ninja of Kaos said:


> Sparks. On the highway towards pyramid lake


If you shoot at Lemon Valley or Wasting Arrows you've probably seen me.


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## Ninja of Kaos

hooks said:


> If you shoot at Lemon Valley or Wasting Arrows you've probably seen me.


I do shoot at both, Im going to start shooting an indoor league at wasting arrows on tuesday nights.! if you went to scheels prior to a year ago then you have seen me, i was the bowtech there for two years...


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## N7709K

i wouldn't label the pro section "elitist"; now or down the road. those who understand what has been put in and what needs to be put in don't see higher end shooters as elitist just because they are a small and tightly knit group... at that point it comes down to ego. 

ron- where would you draw the line as to what intermediate is seeing as using score doesn't work for you? same goes for all the others who are so vehemently opposed to using score....


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## N7709K

Seeing the direction that things have headed any more thought put into improvement?


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> Seeing the direction that things have headed any more thought put into improvement?


Headed ? Can you explain a bit on your thoughts as to the "direction " ? 
I just dont see much action / movement - 
Stepping back into Gen Pop you can see a very big differance in topics and discussions - 99% of which google or a color chart would solve.


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## ron w

N7709K,
to your question, i ask this....
what score would you establish as the point that suggests someone is serious about their shooting ?.


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## N7709K

Being serious doesn't denote mastery of the skill- seeing as this is an "intermediate/advanced" forum I would set the level of mastery at being able to consistently shoot 300's on blue face. On a broad scale that is the next step in the journey; hitting 300's and then working on the aspects related to bring the x count up. Now that doesn't mean anyone is serious about shooting, far from it, only a mastery of certain aspects. 

As far as a measure of seriousness goes... Making national events in min of one venue, actively seeking coaching assistance for a specific issue or issues, setting the groundwork to build working relationships with members of the pro divs.


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## SonnyThomas

Serious is as serious goes. Not all seek the higher level of competing. Being top gun at local club events might be one's serious goal or being the best you can be at State Sanctioned events, ASA, NFAA, FITA, etc....

You can't say attending higher level events is serious in all aspects. All you have to do is look at the scores sheets. ASA has lots of them going back many years. More than half the people that place in bottom half of their class finish in the bottom half nearly 100% of the time. When someone is in bottom half of his or her class nearly 100% of time or all the time this is not serious. It's vacation or party time or meeting old friends or prestige; "Hey, I shoot Nationals." And then if it wasn't for the masses these the National circuits wouldn't exist long. 

The National level is not for everyone that is serious or wants to be serious. For me, ASA event, 4 hours to shoot 20 targets was not fun, especially in 95 degree heat and two days of it. IBO event, shooting 30 target over 6 hours was not fun. Shot a ASA Qualifier this year, 4 1/2 hours to shoot 30 targets and it was not fun.
Blessed I be as my wife has encouraged me to go. I don't, not anymore.


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## ron w

N7709K said:


> Being serious doesn't denote mastery of the skill- seeing as this is an "intermediate/advanced" forum I would set the level of mastery at being able to consistently shoot 300's on blue face. On a broad scale that is the next step in the journey; hitting 300's and then working on the aspects related to bring the x count up. Now that doesn't mean anyone is serious about shooting, far from it, only a mastery of certain aspects.
> 
> As far as a measure of seriousness goes... Making national events in min of one venue, actively seeking coaching assistance for a specific issue or issues, setting the groundwork to build working relationships with members of the pro divs.


 well, I guess I don't belong in this forum then !. I don't shoot 300's, every time I shoot. if that is what it takes to be "an intermediate or advanced shooter", you won't find many in this forum. 
i'll match my knowledge of archery with anyone on here....that doesn't mean I can shoot better than everyone on here.


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## SonnyThomas

Right, ron. I can't shoot a 300 every time. Heck, I can't even complete a 300 round most of the time. No mind set for it. 
.
.
What type working relationship with members of the Pro ranks? Better yet, what Pros are we to "rub elbows" with?

Most people I know can't afford a coach. Yes, they want to go to a coach, but $400 for a one on one day long session is too much for them. In here is one that postponed a coaching session. Will he speak up? Will he go to this coach or another coach as he has said he would?
Coaching clinics; Two I know of attended one by Mr. Wise. Both wonder if they couldn't have spent their money more wisely. I wonder how many more think the same thing.... One, you have to attend with the right attitude. Two, you have to be at a level to understand or accept what is taught in these clinics. Here you have "JJ" with 15 years of shooting a bow and set in his ways and then there is "LL" who just got into archery. The coach can only do so much in the number of days of the clinic. And the winner is, Mr. Coach. He gets his money regardless of the outcome.


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## Lazarus

Maybe this is an apples to oranges comparison but there are many golf "Pro's" that don't play on a national level. Something to ponder. 

Having said that, and with all due respect, this is not to take away from anyone's "knowledge" base that may have years of experience; anyone that doesn't/can't shoot a 300 on a five spot face every single time, (with ease,) I'm going to have to use their advice very carefully, and I would advise the same to anyone who wanted to excel. No offense to anyone intended, it's just an opinon, not personal. 

And there lies the challenge, what is "Intermediate" to one person may not be to the next. As for me, in most cases "Advanced" would be someone that would certainly never struggle to keep 60 arrows well within a 3 inch circle at 20 yards indoors. When you look at the scope of all of the archery disciplines 60 arrows/20 yards in a three inch circle with no elements to contend with is a pretty elementary accomplishment. (Unless of course you do it without sights.)

My apologies if this offends anyone. I tried really hard to word this in such a way as to make a point without being abrasive. Just remember, it's just one mans opinion.


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## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> Two I know of attended one by Mr. Wise. Both wonder if they couldn't have spent their money more wisely. I wonder how many more think the same thing....


Sorry, Sonny, but this comment really rubs me the wrong way. I do not believe this type of public forum is the place to spread gossip about a coach/instructor, no matter who they may be. 

Just as an aside, is it not possible that those two individuals simply did not mesh with the coaching approach? Perhaps their personalities did not mesh well as a working team? Perhaps they had some unrealistic expectations that were not realized. Or, perhaps they are better suited for one-on-one instruction instead of group instruction. No one but those 2 really knows what transpired and it should stay with them.


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## SonnyThomas

Not offended here, but understand there is not a team of horses big enough to drag me to a indoor 20 yard event, the NFAA 5 spot or Vegas round.
And then understand I do use the NFAA single or 5 spot target face to practice as far back as 40 and 50 yards.

The Vegas face. Most in here talk of 300 scoring. I never saw the time I had to shoot just 30 arrows on the Vegas face. Our state has had the Vegas face a one day 60 arrow event since at least January or February of 2001, my first ever sanctioned event.


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> Sorry, Sonny, but this comment really rubs me the wrong way. I do not believe this type of public forum is the place to spread gossip about a coach/instructor, no matter who they may be.
> 
> Just as an aside, is it not possible that those two individuals simply did not mesh with the coaching approach? Perhaps their personalities did not mesh well as a working team? Perhaps they had some unrealistic expectations that were not realized. Or, perhaps they are better suited for one-on-one instruction instead of group instruction. No one but those 2 really knows what transpired and it should stay with them.


Not detracting from Mr. Wise, just poorly attempting to say he is a great coach and things don't work out. Yes, and a down fall, one or two day clinics just don't sink in with everyone and why I noted; "you have to be at a level to understand or accept what is taught in these clinics. Here you have "JJ" with 15 years of shooting a bow and set in his ways and then there is "LL" who just got into archery. The coach can only do so much in the number of days of the clinic." 

Gossip is one thing. When told directly by the persons who went is something else. Two of us spent time with one of the individuals to get his head straight again. He took Mr. Wise's instructions totally the wrong way. I also think he was confused by previous instructions by another coach.
And going to a coach can lead to despair on a big scale. Two people I know took coaching. One went to top level archery coach. The individual quit archery altogether because he couldn't improve, couldn't grasp what was required. No one has seen him since. Another blew up, coached by one of best indoor shooters I know. Threw his bow down and threatened to quit because a older gentleman beat him. I was at his house within the hour of hearing this. He talked, I threatened to bounce him around his living room if he didn't his head out of his azzzzz. Reality grabbing hold he is back to shooting and having fun.


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## Ned250

Who can I fax my resume to so I can be included in this clique?


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## Lazarus

Ned250 said:


> Who can I fax my resume to so I can be included in this clique?


I believe memberships are closed. :teeth:

Just an observation.....not personal experience.


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## Padgett

It is tough the moment you put your heart and soul into something, you might fail and fall flat on your face. For me I have always been honest about my beginnings and where I want to go with them, I AM PUSHING FORWARD WITH THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF BEING A PRO SHOOTER IN 3D. The minute that I put that out there to the public within my shooting circle locally and here on archery talk it comes with baggage because people are waiting for me to fail and then cram it into my face, this is exactly what people do and exactly why I love the challenge.

I fell into my role of being a coach here on archery talk by accident, I love archery and have become a very strong shooter but the fact that I got a job where I am forced to sit in a chair and do nothing but play on the internet is the accident that has lead me into coaching hundreds of people. My coaching really is just being a door opener, I only present what I believe to be good solid starting out methods and thoughts that a person can use to begin his or her journey. Archery is such a hands on sport and coaching from a key board is the biggest challenge I have ever taken on but what I have found is that being confident in my thoughts and just getting them out there to people is allowing them to open the correct doors and then they have to actually walk though the door and use the information correctly without me standing there to tweek them. 

Some of the really good shooters such as n7709k sometimes have to set me straight when they read some of my introductory stuff and I bite my lip because they are right most of the time but me being a coach for over 20 years in a variety of sports I know that there is a progression where people can't just start off doing what jesse broadwater is doing, they need to start out with a very simple approach and then work up to the point where they can call themselves a real shooter.

A couple of you have commented about your struggles with being a 300 shooter and admit that you aren't a 300 shooter all the time, there is nothing wrong with that unless you have given up on becoming a shooter that shoots a 300 every time. I can't remember the last time that I worried about shooting a 300 5-spot, sometime around 5 years ago I just realized that I was never going to shoot the blue ever again and I haven't. I don't try to shoot 300's because it is within my ability to do so, in fact I am trying to become a every day 60x guy now. I think that the good pro shooters actually feel the same way about shooting 60x's as I do shooting a 300 5-spot round, it is just going to happen and really isn't a concern. I am getting closer to becoming a 60x guy because I am shooting for a week at a time when I can go into the indoor range now doing my training sessions and I just don't miss hardly at all anymore. If I miss 1 or 2 x's in a week that is about it for the 400 shots that week so I know I am close to reaching one of my goals. The difference between me and many people is that I put my goals out here for everyone to see and then take a crack at them if they are that type of person.

I just know that we are helping people more than we were just 5 years ago because archery talk has changed, it is so much easier to get help than it was when I first joined and I hope it can get even better. I feel really strong but for me to reach my goals I need guys like n7709k to find ways to reach me and give me that little boost that erases that one missed x for the week or tournament.


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## N7709K

And that's the coaches fault how? If a shooter wants to get better they need to work, not look for a quick fix....


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## Padgett

I don't know which post you are referring to n7709k but I shot for 30 years in my stinking back yard and didn't even know there was a thing called back tension or hinge or rear bar or a d-loop. I can assure you that I was putting out the same mental effort to shoot well that I am today because I am a highly motivated person and want to win really freaking bad. The fact that I have had to reinvent the stinking wheel over and over in my archery career is the problem, of course now I have guys who will dig up threads that existed that covered the same things that I have had to learn all by myself and they try and make me feel bad. My whole point is that I am going to do the best that I can to get people on the right track so they don't have to suffer doing things that we already know don't work and will never work not tomorrow or 50 years from now.

What really pizzes me off is that so many of the top shooters were lucky to grow up around the right people and get the introduction that I never had, crap I had two 17 year old guys tied for first in open a this year. Both of them have been shooting hinges longer than me and I am stinking 45 years old.


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## N7709K

That was towards sonny's... 

I'm having issues with my phone- I'll put up a decent reply after the CWI's and coasties peac out


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> And that's the coaches fault how? If a shooter wants to get better they need to work, not look for a quick fix....


Now, I didn't say that did I? The point was clinics and so many different people within the clinic, ages and as well as archery skills. What a sixteen year old picks up may not be the same as a older archer who has been doing the same thing over and over for years on end, but wants to learn. Young, a blank sheet ready to fill up. Old, a full sheet that needs erased to so to start anew.

What I pointed out was not someone looking for a quick fix. The one got lost, confused, when putting the gained knowledge to work. Okay, something didn't compute, was lost in transition. The other one had all he needed for the level he is shooting at, but let his brain get in the way. 

Hey, it's difficult. Braden Gellenthien let it known he just about out the door. His coach gave he wasn't going to be a upper class shooter if he didn't change. Turn about was hard for Braden and he said as much, but he made the transition and he is a upper class shooter today.


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## Padgett

I was probably not even in the top 5 athletes in my class in high school but I was the only one who earned a division 1 full ride to college to play a sport, I have coached at least 200 kids over the years that had so much more talent than I ever dreamed of having totally waste all of it. After all these years I have come to accept a few things:

1. Tell people your true feelings weather it pizzes them off or not, in the end you will get rid of some people and retain the people who like what you had to say.

2. Some people are going to actually listen and take what you have to offer and do something with it even though they have absolutely no talent and those people are the ones that appreciate and deserve your time.

3. Some people simply were touched by god himself and regardless of how pathetic their work ethic or how many hours they didn't spend working out they are simply going to kick your butt.

To me I cherish the kids over the years who actually listened and gave me a good effort, I got out of coaching school sports because I have a fire inside me to kick the crap of the guys I described in comment number three. I absolutely hate them and the talent that was given to them, the talent that they take for granted, the talent that they use to get free passes through life, the talent that I didn't get. I am slowly getting better and have no idea when or if I will reach my true potential but I refuse to quit and I refuse to roll over and just let them get off without a fight.


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## N7709K

SonnyThomas said:


> Serious is as serious goes. Not all seek the higher level of competing. Being top gun at local club events might be one's serious goal or being the best you can be at State Sanctioned events, ASA, NFAA, FITA, etc....


how do you get across that you are serious at TARGET shooting (seeing at this is a forum geared for intermediate/advanced target shooters) without attending national events? if i don't see you out and trying to better your shooting how can I label YOU as a serious shooter? 



ron w said:


> well, I guess I don't belong in this forum then !. I don't shoot 300's, every time I shoot. if that is what it takes to be "an intermediate or advanced shooter", you won't find many in this forum.
> i'll match my knowledge of archery with anyone on here....that doesn't mean I can shoot better than everyone on here.


so it needs to be a "smaller" subset, yet all inclusive? truth of it is that not all shooters are intermediate and a smaller portion are advanced. If this is a resource geared towards higher level shooters the information and those partaking should be as well. 

Do you feel that theory is all you need to have an understanding of a topic? or does practical application matter as well?



SonnyThomas said:


> What type working relationship with members of the Pro ranks? Better yet, what Pros are we to "rub elbows" with?
> 
> Most people I know can't afford a coach. Yes, they want to go to a coach, but $400 for a one on one day long session is too much for them. In here is one that postponed a coaching session. Will he speak up? Will he go to this coach or another coach as he has said he would?


first part: if you attended national tourneys and/or shot target you would have met pros and other higher level shooters whom would have passed on advise pertaining to issues you have. Depending on who it is they may pass on more; but as you travel to shoots and they keep seeing you, keep talking to you/you keep talking to them/letting them know how you have been shooting you start to build a personal relationship with said pro. BUT to get to this point you need to be at national events, need to be a name that people bring up.... so if you sit at home, it won't happen...

second part: the majority of coaches charging 400$/hr will take your game up a step or two... as you keep working with them what you get out of it becomes better. If you want to make the upper ranks (safe to assume is the goal[longterm] for all those striving to make the jump from intermediate to and advanced shooter) you'll need to work with or seek out a different coach for different aspects... a single coach won't solve all your issues, but they will cut them down to a short list. 

I pose this: as a coach why should i give away my services for free? same for being a pro? 




Ned250 said:


> Who can I fax my resume to so I can be included in this clique?


as far as this comment... although tongue in cheek, this is a very large reason as to why more upper level shooters don't frequent this site. Why should i go out of my way to pass on information in efforts to aid others when the end result is a harder field that I need to compete against? 

Here is my take on this issue.. call it arrogant, call me an ass, doesn't bug me.... If you are a marginal 300 shooter you have level "x" of experience, if you are a 50x shooter you have level "y" of experience, if you are a 60x shooter you have level "z". there are similarities between them- they all take a mental program and the ability to execute a good shot under the mental pressure of shooting a "high" score, but to shoot a 60x takes a fundamentally different understanding and approach than it does to shoot a 300. Who would you rather be coached to a 60x by?

this is an intermediate forum... and the contents should be as well. At some point shooters on their way to higher levels will see that theory only gets you so far, especially when theory cannot be proved or disproved through hands-on results. For me there are a select few that I openly listen to- they can shoot the scores that they claim their methods will provide. There are others i discount because their rationale and scores don't match up with the information they are passing on.... so its a bit of put up or shut up for CERTAIN topics.


----------



## Padgett

I think that my biggest fear is that I have reached my potential and that I have nothing else to gain, that just being a decent local shooter is all I will ever be. That fear keeps me on the practice line, that fear keeps me on archery talk learning and coaching, that fear keeps me motivated to be open minded and listen to guys like n7709k who are on a higher level than I am.

One thing I will say is that I have surrounded myself with a small group of guys that are all trying to do the same, we compete every week and for the most part the toughest competition we face is right in our group. We joke around and call each other names and in the end I am rooting for them to make that shot that gives them the win over me, I ain't going down without giving it my best but when they do beat me it is awesome. After all these years I have never had a group of friends where I felt this way, when I was growing up the effort to prove myself always kept me a little distant from my buddies but at 45 years of age I think the desire to win is as high as ever but at the same time having friends that are also having their day on top is very rewarding also.


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## SonnyThomas

Spoken by one who has lived life and found human. I commend you.


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## brad91x

Well I've posted in here and have had some good advise and some coming off as smug a%& holes..that being said I've had my bow about 6 months I shoot 297-299 my x count is usually in the mid 40's I have done this buy asking some questions and buying some stuff and trying it out and I feel I am doing OK for the time I have to shoot my last post was about bhfs set ups and it got moved OK no big deal but what is worthy of this forum ?


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## Ned250

N7709K said:


> Why should i go out of my way to pass on information in efforts to aid others when the end result is a harder field that I need to compete against?


This really is a shame. I've enjoyed the discussions here, but here's the real motivation right here. You made my point - you want a tight nit clique where you and your buddies just keep everything to yourself. It's high school politics at it's finest. 

So much for archers helping archers. GL on your pursuits.


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## Iowa shooter

N7709K said:


> I pose this: as a coach why should i give away my services for free?


Can you imagine where little kids baseball would be in this country if it wasn't for all the coaches that volunteer or charge a small amount per hour?

Can you imagine where target archery could be if coaches would charge significantly less than $400 per hour?


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## Carbofastdirect

Padgett said:


> I think that my biggest fear is that I have reached my potential and that I have nothing else to gain, that just being a decent local shooter is all I will ever be. That fear keeps me on the practice line, that fear keeps me on archery talk learning and coaching, that fear keeps me motivated to be open minded and listen to guys like n7709k who are on a higher level than I am.
> 
> One thing I will say is that I have surrounded myself with a small group of guys that are all trying to do the same, we compete every week and for the most part the toughest competition we face is right in our group. We joke around and call each other names and in the end I am rooting for them to make that shot that gives them the win over me, I ain't going down without giving it my best but when they do beat me it is awesome. After all these years I have never had a group of friends where I felt this way, when I was growing up the effort to prove myself always kept me a little distant from my buddies but at 45 years of age I think the desire to win is as high as ever but at the same time having friends that are also having their day on top is very rewarding also.



Well said, i can relate to this big time
I want and need to win as much as the next guy, what i cant stand are people who argue the linecutters on the good shooters and let them slide on the guys they beat comfortably
I enter every shoot to win but occasionly being beaten give you the kick up the ass to put some extra work in so it doesnt happen again!! In the end of the day you got to enjoy what your doing, if you dont theres something wrong


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## Lazarus

Ned250 said:


> This really is a shame. I've enjoyed the discussions here, but here's the real motivation right here. You made my point - you want a tight nit clique where you and your buddies just keep everything to yourself. It's high school politics at it's finest.
> 
> So much for archers helping archers. GL on your pursuits.


Ned250, you are spot on with the subject at hand. But don't let it get you down. I read something in a book one time, said something about sowing and reaping, talked about the principle of reaping what you sow. You may have read that book too, maybe. I can assure you, most shooters that are qualified to GIVE advice are pretty willing to do so. Probably not on an open forum. But if they are approached in the proper manner they probably are. I can think of only one out of a handful of the qualified that would probably think it was an imposition or "protected" information. 

Don't think that I'm pointing fingers with regard to the "sowing and reaping" principle. I have to check myself constantly to see if I'm living up to the standard of sowing that I would like to reap.  Some people think the pie is only so big, (faulty logic,) some just want to make it bigger.


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## N7709K

There is a huge difference between joad/usat coaches(and others) geared towards getting youth a foundation to build upon and excel with and private coaches... The material is different, the goals are different. 

There aren't all that many $400/hr (I can only think of maybe one that is 400/hr and that's more because he doesn't really want to take time from his tourney schedule to coach) most are $50/hr on the higher end. Depending on the length of time that you go to them you may only be paying $25/hr. Griv is bout $50/hr if I remember correctly


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## stromdidilly

Ned250 said:


> This really is a shame. I've enjoyed the discussions here, but here's the real motivation right here. You made my point - you want a tight nit clique where you and your buddies just keep everything to yourself. It's high school politics at it's finest.
> 
> So much for archers helping archers. GL on your pursuits.


I'm really hoping that he didn't mean that literally but was just making a point...why would anyone that actually feels that way even join?


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## montigre

brad91x said:


> Well I've posted in here and have had some good advise and some coming off as smug a%& holes..that being said I've had my bow about 6 months I shoot 297-299 my x count is usually in the mid 40's I have done this buy asking some questions and buying some stuff and trying it out and I feel I am doing OK for the time I have to shoot my last post was about bhfs set ups and it got moved OK no big deal but what is worthy of this forum ?


Not to berate, but you're a newb--have been shooting for 6 months and looking forward to your 1st year shooting indoors. Lazarus asked some very good questions of you after your post was moved, but I did not see where you answered, so like him, I am left feeling like you were not out to determine what would be a good set up for you to reach a specific goal, but to have some generic stab set up handed to you that would likely not do you one bit of good.

That's one difference between gen archery and intermediate/advanced forums. The level of the content and understanding is different. I'm not yet a 60x shooter (low 40s on a good day), so the things those that do shoot at that level know and use to gain an additional x or 2 will not be of any real benefit for my current level of shooting or immediate goals. I do not feel badly, put out, or insulted by this fact--I just continue to shoot, practice diligently, go to as many competitions as possible (including regional and national tournaments), talk to and shoot with as many more advanced shooters as I can, and keep my mind open to learning (often meaning keeping the mouth shut...lol!). 

EVERYONE, even the greatest shooters who have in the past and who currently are making the podium, have had to pay their dues and put in tens of thousands of hours of practice behind the string over a period of many years or decades to get to that level of expertise. The learning curve in archery is not linear--and getting information too soon or too quickly can cause many serious issues down the road for a novice or even intermediate shooter. Even advanced shooters often struggle to overcome some issues or plateaus they need to work through. Although the tools and fixes may be very similar, their applications are vastly different. 

You can read about and have all of the "Pro tricks" in the world stored in your head (or notebook), but if you're not shooting and competing at a level to personally put them to use for your improvement, they just end up creating wasted brain space and shooting pitfalls.


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## dua lam pa




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## montigre

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of:

"I Want My Maypo!"


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## Lazarus

dua lam pa said:


>


With all due respect.........it's more like this..........:teeth:


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## brad91x

OK so I'm a newbi OK I guess u started out advanced... I plan on going to as many shoots as I can THIS YEAR..I just started..and no I didn't reply much in my post because I'll be honest it just seemed like it was a bunch of jerks waiting to reply now I did have a few people pm me and I thank them for that


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## SonnyThomas

AT messing up. I had to copy and submit 3 times to get through.




N7709K said:


> how do you get across that you are serious at TARGET shooting (seeing at this is a forum geared for intermediate/advanced target shooters) without attending national events? if i don't see you out and trying to better your shooting how can I label YOU as a serious shooter?


You sir, are living in your dream world. Scan over the score sheets of the ASA ProAms for say just 3 years. Going to a ProAm, a National event, proves nothing, not by what I see. By and large all those that finish in the bottom half of their class are there virtually 100% of the time..... 



N7709K said:


> first part: if you attended national tourneys and/or shot target you would have met pros and other higher level shooters whom would have passed on advise pertaining to issues you have. Depending on who it is they may pass on more; but as you travel to shoots and they keep seeing you, keep talking to you/you keep talking to them/letting them know how you have been shooting you start to build a personal relationship with said pro. BUT to get to this point you need to be at national events, need to be a name that people bring up.... so if you sit at home, it won't happen...
> 
> second part: the majority of coaches charging 400$/hr will take your game up a step or two... as you keep working with them what you get out of it becomes better. If you want to make the upper ranks (safe to assume is the goal[longterm] for all those striving to make the jump from intermediate to and advanced shooter) you'll need to work with or seek out a different coach for different aspects... a single coach won't solve all your issues, but they will cut them down to a short list.
> 
> I pose this: as a coach why should i give away my services for free? same for being a pro?


Has the number of archers increased since I last checked? Not much, but say 4,000,000. Has the number of member increased in the big organizations? If by those in the know, No. About 60,000. How many compete on the National level? Vegas is a Open shoot to the world, so leave it out. Say average, 1500? And I'd think 1500 is high.... IBO, ASA, NFAA, FITA, NAA.....

I didn't ask you or any coach to give up anything..... But then this $400, and more, is it one-on-one for 1 day? For what is still a game... I never made $400 in a 12 hour day. My job must have had some importance as I was paid near $25 per hour, time and one-half for beyond 8 hours and Saturdays, double time for Sundays. And this 10 years ago.
2003. Doctor; "Your hand will last you the rest of your life...if you retire. To be rebuilt again doesn't go near as well." 36 years with Caterpillar, Inc. I retired December 2003. 
I still compete at club and state events. My bow hand, rebuilt, swells and sometimes swells so my watch band crushes into my wrist. You could ask ASA Pro Kevin Koch. He and I took first place at this club 3D, him in Bow Hunter Free Style and me in Adult Free Style (I was 64 then). We shot together, he saw my hand.

State sanctioned events. They really shouldn't be given as sanctioned events. They should be regulated to "just another club event." At club events I shoot against the best that walk in. At sanctioned events I shoot against members of a organization. Just because you're a NFAA or IBO or ASA member doesn't make you the best of archers....


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## D.B.Cooper

In my real-world job, I’m often involved in designing technology training for teachers. As you can imagine, there’s a great variety of technology skills among any group of teachers. (Just as there would be with any large group of people.) Designing a single training session that meets the needs of everyone is virtually impossible. The ones that don’t know much (yet) are overwhelmed and confused, and the others with more experience are bored because they already know the information. Having multiple levels of training is critical so teachers find some training at a level appropriate for them.

That suggests to me that there’s a place on AT for different forums with different target audiences. The trick is ensuring that there is a critical mass of more experienced archers available to answer the beginners’ questions. If there’s a high quality beginning target archery forum, and a few more experienced shooters who enjoy helping new folks, it could be a win-win.

One of the tricks, as Jacob and others have nudged us to consider, is how to help members self-select into the right forum. I don’t have any specific suggestions, but it’s important to provide some guidance. Maybe the “General” forum already serves the beginner forum purpose and we would only need to provide more info (beyond what’s already provided in the sticky post) to help folks decide where to post their questions.


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> as far as this comment... although tongue in cheek, this is a very large reason as to why more upper level shooters don't frequent this site.
> .



It does not take much time to realize that the top shooters all have one thing in common. Nothing negative.
Negativity brings a shooter down. There is enough negativity on this site to end the carrear of 50 pros. -


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## SonnyThomas

dua lam pa said:


> It does not take much time to realize that the top shooters all have one thing in common. Nothing negative.
> Negativity brings a shooter down. There is enough negativity on this site to end the carrear of 50 pros. -


Relax. The Pros ignore the negatives here. I mean if the did take in the negatives.....[think box]...there'd be - 1.142858 ASA Pros


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## Azzurri

“I’m out of order? You’re out of order! This whole court is out of order!”

Thanks, tip your waitresses.


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## SonnyThomas

Azzurri said:


> “I’m out of order? You’re out of order! This whole court is out of order!”
> 
> Thanks, tip your waitresses.


We're cooked. The secret is out.... :sad:


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## Lazarus

I would really like to try to get this back on track.

Sonny, I'd like to go on record as saying your vast knowledge of archery is very evident. It is wonderful that you choose to share it with everyone in such a genuine manner. I really pay attention to what you write. Just one thing............please..........don't ever try to write a book. :teeth:


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## GRIV

N7709K said:


> There is a huge difference between joad/usat coaches(and others) geared towards getting youth a foundation to build upon and excel with and private coaches... The material is different, the goals are different.
> 
> There aren't all that many $400/hr (I can only think of maybe one that is 400/hr and that's more because he doesn't really want to take time from his tourney schedule to coach) most are $50/hr on the higher end. Depending on the length of time that you go to them you may only be paying $25/hr. Griv is bout $50/hr if I remember correctly



I charge $100 for an hour for private lessons unless you are a active member in my JOAD program. In that case the cost is $40


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## Iowa shooter

GRIV said:


> I charge $100 for an hour for private lessons unless you are a active member in my JOAD program. In that case the cost is $40


I really appreciate what you are doing in the TAW videos on youtube.


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## SonnyThomas

GRIV said:


> I charge $100 for an hour for private lessons unless you are a active member in my JOAD program. In that case the cost is $40


I was giving $400 for a day. What never seems to show, how much can a average (?) archer gain? Where is the most gain? Or should we start a new Post? I mean, people just don't know what they are walking into going to a coach.
.
.
I am no archery coach, but I see things. 17 shooters on the line and maybe 2 doing it right. Hip shot, hand full in the grip, draw length too long, peep not located properly. You can't tell these people they are doing something wrong. Well, you can, but.... Guy comes into the archery shop looking for a bow, stands maybe 5 foot, 6 inches tall and he has a 30" draw. I started a war and didn't mean to....Before back issues I stood 6 foot tall and couldn't draw 30," not properly anyway.


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## ron w

30 inch draw by the wingspan method, puts an average wing span at 6'3". given that there are very few people who are truly "anthropometrically balanced", where their wingspan is the same as their height....most a shorter short of that.....there's very, very few who actually can properly use a 30 inch draw bow.


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## SonnyThomas

I hear you, ron. There was no telling this person that he didn't have a 30" draw. I mean, he got down right hostile. I didn't know what I was talking about and so on. The man was anchoring his thumb on the back of his neck! It's a wonder he still had a ear.

Kid, 16 or 17, at one of our league shoots had his hand fully in the grip of his Hoyt. Overly in. His wrist was against the strut! His foreman chewed to hamburger. So I got him to grip the bow properly and he did pretty good for the rest of the night. On his own, back to chewing his forearm raw, I heard he quit.

Another kid, 16 or 17, wearing glasses. Set glasses just so, draw, nudge glasses a bit and then shoots. He kept doing this to the point it was driving me nuts... Shop closing I asked him to stay. "How bad are your eyes?" Got answer that didn't sit with me. I had him take them off and shoot. Of all things he was nudging the glasses that weren't there. So I'm in his ear; "Stop that. Start over. No messing around with glasses that aren't there." He gets out the nudging his glasses and begins shooting like his never shot before. Seeing his incredible score he nearly breaks down crying and has his arms wrapped around me. Yes, I called upon Jesus. He words; "I never shot this good in 2 years."


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## dua lam pa

go0d topic Ill get a new train running -


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## Strodav

Looney Bin said:


> I'm coming to the conclusion there are no topics to be discussed in here.


Feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, I have gotten some valuable information from this forum and will continue to read it. I have had a couple of questions / thoughts I would like to put in front of this group, but put them in the field archery forum instead, just because I don't feel comfortable posting here.


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## dua lam pa

This entire thread needs to be deleted -


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## Iowa shooter

dua lam pa said:


> This entire thread needs to be deleted -


Please don't delete where I tell Griv his TAW videos are appreciated.


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## SonnyThomas

dua lam pa said:


> This entire thread needs to be deleted -


I suggested such long ago - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2259732&p=1070298540#post1070298540

Or change the title to Rattle Room.....

Of course, there have been issues Posted in this forum and right off someone suggests something that has nothing to do with what the Poster put forth. You have a question to the Poster, then ask it to clarify so to give a decent reply.


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## Fury90flier

dua lam pa said:


> This entire thread needs to be deleted -


how about just don't open the thread.




brad91x said:


> OK so I'm a newbi OK I guess u started out advanced... I plan on going to as many shoots as I can THIS YEAR..I just started..and no I didn't reply much in my post because I'll be honest *it just seemed like it was a bunch of jerks waiting to reply *now I did have a few people pm me and I thank them for that


it's just what happens in a public free forum. Just have to gloss over the attack or nonhelpful responses



D.B.Cooper said:


> In my real-world job, I’m often involved in designing technology training for teachers. As you can imagine, there’s a great variety of technology skills among any group of teachers. (Just as there would be with any large group of people.) Designing a single training session that meets the needs of everyone is virtually impossible. The ones that don’t know much (yet) are overwhelmed and confused, and the others with more experience are bored because they already know the information. Having multiple levels of training is critical so teachers find some training at a level appropriate for them.
> 
> That suggests to me that there’s a place on AT for different forums with different target audiences. The trick is ensuring that there is a critical mass of more experienced archers available to answer the beginners’ questions. If there’s a high quality beginning target archery forum, and a few more experienced shooters who enjoy helping new folks, it could be a win-win.
> 
> One of the tricks, as Jacob and others have nudged us to consider, is *how to help members self-select into the right forum*. I don’t have any specific suggestions, but it’s important to provide some guidance. Maybe the “General” forum already serves the beginner forum purpose and we would only need to provide more info (beyond what’s already provided in the sticky post) to help folks decide where to post their questions.


We try to get people directed in to the proper form but all they do is get pissy. It's as if mom and dad never said "no" and just gave in to what ever the child wanted.

If we can figure out how to fix the "thin skinned" issue, that would solve most of the problem.


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## dua lam pa

Fury90flier said:


> how about just don't open the thread.
> 
> 
> We try to get people directed in to the proper form but all they do is get pissy. It's as if mom and dad never said "no" and just gave in to what ever the child wanted.
> 
> If we can figure out how to fix the "thin skinned" issue, that would solve most of the problem.




I open the thread becuse I would like to see this section flourish , Not much of any thing in this thread shining a positve light on " advanced " shooters , if anything we look like a bunch of school girls arguing over shoes. 
I have a quick tongue, I m  foul witted and about as tactful as a sledge hammer , I try and refrain myself best as possible here. Ask me what color string you should buy ... 

As far as "directing" people , just report the post , and move it , thats pretty much the way the rest of AT runs.
No one likes to be put in their place , "take it back to grammer school " is basically how any comment will come across - " people even get pissy when openly redirected gen pop " hey there is a hunting section " 

Report the thread , move the thread , pm the OP if you wish to lend a hand - Leave no trace of the thread ( dead courpse with a moved sign ) 





10-77


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## Lazarus

Fury90flier said:


> it's just what happens in a public free forum. Just have to gloss over the attack or nonhelpful responses


While the above is accurate, it's definitely not what happened to brad91x. 

He asked a generic question, a little, but not much different than "what's the best bow to buy for bowhunter freestyle." But somehow those who wanted to genuinely help him with quality information got labeled as jerks or some BS. No skin off my gnut sack. To each his own. And I'm sure he got precisely the information he needed over in "General." A list of different setups about 30 posts long that have nothing to do with what might be best for him. :wink:


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## Fury90flier

dua lam pa said:


> I open the thread becuse I would like to see this section flourish , Not much of any thing in this thread shining a positve light on " advanced " shooters , if anything we look like a bunch of school girls arguing over shoes. this was part of what we thought would happen...not sure how to work with that...but we're trying
> I have a quick tongue, I m foul witted and about as tactful as a sledge hammer , I try and refrain myself best as possible here. Ask me what color string you should buy ... completely understand...as you can see by my previous post you quote. Sometimes I come off as a jerk when really I'm just direct...often, I have not tact
> 
> As far as "directing" people , just report the post , and move it , thats pretty much the way the rest of AT runs.
> No one likes to be put in their place , "take it back to grammer school " is basically how any comment will come across - " people even get pissy when openly redirected gen pop " hey there is a hunting section " I know...thin skinn is the in thing now
> 
> Report the thread , move the thread , pm the OP if you wish to lend a hand - Leave no trace of the thread ( dead courpse with a moved sign ) good advice
> 
> 10-77





Lazarus said:


> While the above is accurate, it's definitely not what happened to brad91x.
> 
> He asked a generic question, a little, but not much different than "what's the best bow to buy for bowhunter freestyle." But somehow those who wanted to genuinely help him with quality information got labeled as jerks or some BS. this happends too often. I've resorted many times to PM- it gets old. No skin off my gnut sack. To each his own. And I'm sure he got precisely the information he needed over in "General." A list of different setups about 30 posts long that have nothing to do with what might be best for him. :wink:


I'll have to review the thread again...but I understand what was described happens all the time.

I wish we could do a FEE site...it would cut out much of the crap that goes on here. Unfortunately, many good members would leave too


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## Mahly

ron w said:


> well, I guess I don't belong in this forum then !. I don't shoot 300's, every time I shoot. if that is what it takes to be "an intermediate or advanced shooter", you won't find many in this forum.
> i'll match my knowledge of archery with anyone on here....that doesn't mean I can shoot better than everyone on here.


Ron w, your knowledge is well known around here, and it would lessen this group greatly if you were not to post here anymore.
I do understand the case for prerequisites, and the PRO section here has prerequisites....and virtually zero traffic. At least in the Pro section, it's easier to "prove" you belong than proving someone is at an intermediate level shooter.

NOTE: There is a difference between being intermediate and SERIOUS. I consider myself at least intermediate, most places I shoot consider me advanced. I have shot a lot of 300 games, and i'm around a 50x shooter. MY biggest issue is TIME. I just don't have the time to practice what I need to practice. I even became something of a partner of a local archery shop. I had a key to go shoot whenever I wanted....I WANTED to shoot every day. unfortunately, life is getting in the way. Now, I could be much more serious (which would likely get me farther into the advanced group...and I am now working on that) and tell the wife that I'm just not going to be around as much, as I need to get my practice in. But I am not looking to make a living at archery. Yes, I want to be the best I can be, and I am always looking to improve, but I won't sacrifice quite as much as some of you will. This does NOT reduce my ability to discuss more advanced techniques. N7709K is right though... theory only goes so far. If I had been doing this only for a year or 2, I wouldn't belong here. 30+ years of learning from my mistakes, and applying theory I got on AT and elsewhere improved my shooting greatly over the years.



dua lam pa said:


> This entire thread needs to be deleted -


I hear what you are saying, but for this group to move forward, we have to know which way IS forward. That means everybody gets to speak their mind as to what we should do to grow and move "forward".

Some say it's "cliquey" but this IS after all a more specialized group than Gen pop. Yes, your questions have to be "good enough". What bow should I buy threads or "I am just starting out in archery, what do I need to do to get better" or "Hows my form" threads don't really belong here. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. instead of a "hows my form?" (General), there might be room for a "I'm having trouble with ______ can you see anything that I am missing?" (Intermediate) thread.

Generally, I try to keep the "What brand of gear should I get" down to a minimum, but threads about how you USE the gear are perfectly fine (i.e. N7709K's thread on stab set up).

All in all I LOVE this forum. Sure sometimes people get rubbed the wrong way, but as a whole, I think this forum is much more useful for it's intended audience than Gen pop, or any of the specific game forums (3-D, Field etc). I just breeze through Gen pop now, maybe I'll see an interesting thread, but most often it's more "who likes brand X" and "how fast should my bow be". Sure, there is a grey line here. Sometimes a thread that doesn't belong will get some replies that move it in a new direction before it gets moved. Those stay as they are now getting filled with good information.

That said, if we can come up with something of a consensus for additional guidelines for this forum, they can always be thrown in on the Sticky.
I did not create this, and it's not mine to do with as I please. It's all of ours. I'm just here to enforce what the majority wishes.


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## ron w

I hear you Mahly....
the thing is, to put a score on what determines "intermediate or advanced" is asking for people to consider this forum an "elitist group of snob shooters". if there had been such a sub forum years ago, I would not know half of what I know now. as I was taught, I knew way more about "proper archery" than the average shooter...I just hadn't developed the production of high scores very fast. you can know what to do, but you still have to do it , in order to shoot a good score. 
I guess you could say that I value the knowledge more than the accomplishment, when it comes to describing the level of your shooting. if a guy wants to improve his shooting, he's not going to, unless he can participate in discussions that are outside his peer group's level of knowledge and seriousness about shooting. policing the "level of question" is the only way we can filter the subject matter here, if we regulate it score, we virtually say "don't bother us with your questions". 
think of this way, if there is a guy that is just starting out in spots and wants to learn the right stuff, a common suggestion is to "go to a range and talk the guys that are producing the good scores"..... the "serious shooters". if we don't allow the guys that want to be serious about shooting participate, they don't have a chance to learn what we know, because they obviously are not shooting intermediate to advanced scores yet, so they shouldn't be in this forum asking questions.. yet, at the same time, their questions are getting poor replies in the regular forum, because the question is too advanced for the general shooter.
it is the quality of the question that describes the level of shooter, not the score he produces.
at the other end of this spectrum, I know several guys that shoot good scores all the time, but couldn't tell you how to adjust the tiller on their bows....does that make them "advanced shooters" ?....not in my book. still, according to the "rules", they would be welcome here, but if they would ask how to adjust tiller, they might be sent to the "general question forum" because that's a pretty basic and fundamental element of bow tuning that certainly doesn't belong in this forum, because of the score the shooter can produce.


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## Lazarus

ron w said:


> I know several guys that shoot good scores all the time, but couldn't tell you how to adjust the tiller on their bows....does that make them "advanced shooters" ?....not in my book.


Interesting discussion. 

Ron....with all due respect, with the above quote you just highlighted a major difference in philosophies. This is just me personally, I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree. Its just a difference. It's also one of the reason nuts and bolts bores me to tears. Me? I study the art of the shot. I know for a fact a good shooter with subpar equipment will score better than a bad shooter with the very best. Therefore my main focus has always been on the shot. 

In my opinion a person doesn't have to know how to set the tiller on their bow in order to be an advanced shooter.

By the way, what is tiller anyway?[emoji4]

In my opinion, that is what this forum lacks, the focus on the making of an advanced shooter instead of an advanced tinkerer. My opinion only.


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## N7709K

The "pro" forum is a different issue... 

So because you can shoot 300's on blue face you are an. "Elitist"? Wow.... 

Big picture here:- if you want to become advanced , or make the step to advanced you need to decipher the information provided and weed out that which is flawed or inconsequential. You need to have an understanding of YOUR shot; your process and how it runs and you need to over simplify and break it down... You dot goes in the middle, shot breaks, you go count x's. All told this forum won't bring you as a shooter to that level; but you can learn the needed technical info to excel. Like I've said, you need to want it- if you don't want it no one can force it on you and have you see results


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> So because you can shoot 300's on blue face you are an. "Elitist"? Wow....



So what if you shoot a 299 in the pro division in Kentucky last year , but still produce a fist full of national champion kids ?


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## N7709K

Then you're straight up legit??


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## skynight

dua lam pa said:


> So what if you shoot a 299 in the pro division in Kentucky last year , but still produce a fist full of national champion kids ?


How well do national champion kids shoot? Just curious.


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## N7709K

Depending on class 600's with 115+x's


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## ron w

if the point of this forum is to "make intermediate or advanced shooters out of average shooters, then we have to allow the average guy to participate and ask "average questions". which in my opinion, is perfectly fine. it is the average shooter that is where the people in this specific sub-forum will come from. and they won't come if not allowed to participate here.
as I said, the qualification for participation has to based the level of serious interest, not score. if other wise, we aren't building or improving anything. any of the "intermediate and advanced shooters", know what's up about a good shot or they wouldn't be advanced or intermediate....it does no good to be able shoot a good score and not know how to answer a question that is on the same level as your shooting. the guys/gals that want to attain that level, have to be able to ask questions and get answers that are of an advanced level, in order to learn. putting a score as the qualification for participation eliminates the exact people we are trying to make more numbers of.
the qualification lies in the quality of the question and it's answers....not the score a shooter shoots. I knew way more than my scores reflected back when I was 'learning and developing my shooting. archery is just exactly that type of sport....you have to know more than you are capable of demonstrating, to be able to demonstrate what you are at your present level of shooting, or you'll never reach that next level of description.
there will always be those guys that come on here and ask a question that clearly belongs in the "general forum", most of those guys think they need to ask it here , in order to get good answers......those are the type of questions that need to be re-directed. .....not the questions from a average guy that wants to get more serious about his shooting....it'll never happen , if he can't ask the right people. simply go to the general forum and look at all the silly crap that is said about some of the more seriously oriented questions and all the poor advice given about shot execution and equipment.
simply put...it does no good for a bunch of advanced shooters to sit around and talk amongst themselves about advanced issues, we already know the answers. we need to make our knowledge available to the average guy that truly wants to improve. if the guy can't shoot good scores, he can't have that knowledge available to himself, as a "score oriented qualification for participation" stands.


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## carlosii

montigre said:


> So, I am sorry you and some others feel there is an elitist attitude here and assure you that is not the case. However this forum was created specifically for the intermediate and advanced competitive shooters to discuss methods to improve their games and not for those who simply wish to reach the ears of shooters who have some years under their belts to answer their general questions or questions on easily researched subjects.


Please re-read his last paragraph where he says his original impression was in error.


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## montigre

carlosii said:


> Please re-read his last paragraph where he says his original impression was in error.


I have and do not understand your rational for bringing up a post that is 3 months old into the current discussion. We have all already moved on from that point...


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## montigre

ron w said:


> if the point of this forum is to "make intermediate or advanced shooters out of average shooters, then we have to allow the average guy to participate and ask "average questions". which in my opinion, is perfectly fine. it is the average shooter that is where the people in this specific sub-forum will come from. and they won't come if not allowed to participate here. I thought the original premise of this forum was to provide a place for discussion where an intermediate shooter could gain some knowledge about skill sets that may help hem/her progress to the advanced level and for those advanced shooters who are just off the podium to find that little extra tweak that would allow them to further their game.
> 
> as I said, the qualification for participation has to based the level of serious interest, not score. if other wise, we aren't building or improving anything. any of the "intermediate and advanced shooters", know what's up about a good shot or they wouldn't be advanced or intermediate....it does no good to be able shoot a good score and not know how to answer a question that is on the same level as your shooting. the guys/gals that want to attain that level, have to be able to ask questions and get answers that are of an advanced level, in order to learn. putting a score as the qualification for participation eliminates the exact people we are trying to make more numbers of.
> That was the purpose of the game specific forums ie field, 3D, traditional, fita....)
> 
> the qualification lies in the quality of the question and it's answers....not the score a shooter shoots. I knew way more than my scores reflected back when I was 'learning and developing my shooting. archery is just exactly that type of sport....you have to know more than you are capable of demonstrating, to be able to demonstrate what you are at your present level of shooting, or you'll never reach that next level of description.True, as I said in another thread, gaining proficiency in archery is not a linear event.
> 
> there will always be those guys that come on here and ask a question that clearly belongs in the "general forum", most of those guys think they need to ask it here , in order to get good answers......those are the type of questions that need to be re-directed. .....not the questions from a average guy that wants to get more serious about his shooting....it'll never happen, if he can't ask the right people. simply go to the general forum and look at all the silly crap that is said about some of the more seriously oriented questions and all the poor advice given about shot execution and equipment. The information presented to the average shooter in this forum will not be very helpful to that shooter if he/she is not already shooting and competing at a level that is above average. They are still at a point in their archery play where they are fitting out equipment issues, battling significant form issues, or not running their game from a well planned out shot routine. I doubt many of them even have a formalized shot routine and for those shooters, the General Archery section would yield them the most useful answers. Yes, they will have to wade through a lot of misinformation, but it will be presented to them in a manner they can more easily relate to. There is nothing wrong with that, IMO.
> 
> simply put...it does no good for a bunch of advanced shooters to sit around and talk amongst themselves about advanced issues, we already know the answers. No, the intermediate/advanced shooters do now already know all of the answers. If that were true, we'd all be placing on the podium a lot more frequently than we currently are.we need to make our knowledge available to the average guy that truly wants to improve. if the guy can't shoot good scores, he can't have that knowledge available to himself, as a "score oriented qualification for participation" stands. Then make that knowledge available to the novice shooter asking questions in this forum once their question has been moved to the appropriate forum. I have done this on many occasions, as I know many others have.


How many novice shooters posting in this forum are in a real position to benefit from Jacob's recent pearl? "Hold and confidence go hand in hand- if you know your dot won't move it's easier to put an arrow in the middle; when you know you are gonna put one in the middle the dot doesn't move because you aren't being careful. Making the dot sit isn't a symptom of weak hold or too much float but more one of incomplete mastery of your chosen shot process.

If you trust your shot, truly trust it, it doesn't matter what your dot does your shot breaks the same each time and prints behind the dot. When you trust it distance of practice no longer matter and to a lesser degree amount as well. If you don't trust it you play careful; you shoot careful and "try" to put each arrow into the x.. Things get tense, shots start to hang up, the flow leaves. I don't trust my float, I trust my shot- there isn't a point to trusting my float, it doesn't harbor the control as to where the arrow will hit as the shot has." The novice shooter probably does not have an established shot process yet....


----------



## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> Then you're straight up legit??


My point was Griv ( toung in cheek ) did not shoot a 300 in Kentucky last year ( blue face ) One would only assume the point system here is not gonna carry weight - no need to get into a discussion on this either - 

A member imposed "rep " system works awesome. every one starts out with zero an a scale that looks like this -----0----- . Post a helpful comment , another member can give you positive rep , post crap info a member can give you negative rep. Rep is controlled by the system , A member can only receive on positive rep from another member per thread , and same goes for negatives. A member can only dish out X amount of rep per his own score , per week - A member that maintain +5 rep knows his business , a members with negative rep usually weed themselves out of conversations.
It is sort of a self moderated process that sorts out the boys from the men - and actually adds something to the forum - One site that runs this way is ridemonkey and it know as one of the best forums on the net - Very high levels of discussion -


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## N7709K

I'd be behind a member based rep system.. If everyone would follow it


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## erdman41

If you have coached people to shoot a 60x or have done it yourself that would carry weight with me.
If you have done neither how do you actually know what you are preaching is gonna get someone there.
I can only explain what it took for me to get to be a 55-58x/540-550 field shooter cause that is where I'm at.
I can't honestly tell someone how to get to 60x or 560 since I have never been able to do it myself.
My guess is most coaches that would be worth going to have in the past or are capable of putting up those scores.
Comment made earlier about finding the really good shooters at your local club and ask questions. Why shouldn't it be the same here?


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## redman

$100 hour for private lessons with griv is great deal he is one of the best archery coach, I know he knows archery,


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## Mahly

N7709K said:


> I'd be behind a member based rep system.. If everyone would follow it


Intrigued myself... May have to do some research.
My only concern would be that some people rub some people the wrong way. Different dialect ect. 

Would almost want an ability to appeal a bad mark (like in classifieds, when someone gets bad feedback but they don't deserve it).


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## N7709K

Maybe... But if lots of neg is showing up for a single person the underlying cause should be sought out. What bout the feedback like in the classifieds??


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## Mahly

If you get bad feedback in classifieds, you can plead your case to have it removed.

Checked out ridemonkey, and I do like thier system.


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## N7709K

When I get moved in I'll check their stuff out at ridemonkey


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## Iowa shooter

Mahly said:


> Intrigued myself... May have to do some research.
> My only concern would be that some people rub some people the wrong way. Different dialect ect.
> 
> Would almost want an ability to appeal a bad mark (like in classifieds, when someone gets bad feedback but they don't deserve it).


I quoted Terry Wunderhle once on this sub-forum and was strongly rejected.


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## carlosii

montigre said:


> I have and do not understand your rational for bringing up a post that is 3 months old into the current discussion. We have all already moved on from that point...


I only recently signed on to this forum and failed to notice the date on your post. My apologies.


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## reylamb

Iowa shooter said:


> I quoted Terry Wunderhle once on this sub-forum and was strongly rejected.


You cant quote Terry, or actual coaches with value....you have to quote random ramblings from members here that supposedly walk on water, then your thoughts wouldn't be so strongly rejected......even if those thoughts are wrong, dead 100% wrong, as long as it comes from someone the AT masses approve of....you will be golden. Just never quote a respected international coach if his advice goes against the AT appointed ones.....


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> Maybe... But if lots of neg is showing up for a single person the underlying cause should be sought out. What bout the feedback like in the classifieds??


Are you going to give a Negatives To No End because you think you know best? Nice about swords, they cut both ways..... 



carlosii said:


> I only recently signed on to this forum and failed to notice the date on your post. My apologies.


Hey, Chuck. Glad you joined in, but be aware, you're not any good if you can't shoot a 300 on some paper target face. Hey, I shot a 178/180 on the Field course the other day and I'm probably not good enough to be here. Scorching hot, drop dead humid on top of it today, but got 2nd place at a 3D, but probably not good enough to be here. And it probably doesn't count because I never shot one practice since last Sunday when I shot the 178/180. Yeah, I had find my bow so I could go the 3D today. Honest, I forgot where I put it..... I did shoot 2 shots on the practice range, but that doesn't count because I just wanted to make sure I could draw my bow. I did show the results of my injury to ASA Pro Kevin Koch after the shoot, he was there. "How the H3LL did you shoot?" Arm swelled up like mine and ole Arnie and Lou might get jealous. Still, you got be serious and by one account in here you are serious because you shoot all the ASA Nationals...

Mahley, you ready to remove this Thread?


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## montigre

carlosii said:


> I only recently signed on to this forum and failed to notice the date on your post. My apologies.


No worries, all is good. :wink:


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## skynight

Why does everyone hate this thread? I find it amusing.


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## montigre

I don't hate it and feel it should be kept with all of it's good, bad, and ugliness. This is the history of the beginnings of the I/A Target Forum and as your signature states, nothing is achieved without effort...(and lots of it...lol!).


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## SonnyThomas

skynight said:


> Why does everyone hate this thread? I find it amusing.


Cause those who think they know it all perturbs us that do.


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## SonnyThomas

Me jus' had to.


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## Blue X

Don't waste urctrainingvur argueing. Spend ur energy shooting ur bow. 

I been married 20 years. Got a wife that likes to argue and never forgets my negative feed back. Can't say that I need that in my archery forum. 

Blue X


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## carlosii

SonnyThomas said:


> Are you going to give a Negatives To No End because you think you know best? Nice about swords, they cut both ways.....
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Chuck. Glad you joined in, but be aware, you're not any good if you can't shoot a 300 on some paper target face. Hey, I shot a 178/180 on the Field course the other day and I'm probably not good enough to be here. Scorching hot, drop dead humid on top of it today, but got 2nd place at a 3D, but probably not good enough to be here. And it probably doesn't count because I never shot one practice since last Sunday when I shot the 178/180. Yeah, I had find my bow so I could go the 3D today. Honest, I forgot where I put it..... I did shoot 2 shots on the practice range, but that doesn't count because I just wanted to make sure I could draw my bow. I did show the results of my injury to ASA Pro Kevin Koch after the shoot, he was there. "How the H3LL did you shoot?" Arm swelled up like mine and ole Arnie and Lou might get jealous. Still, you got be serious and by one account in here you are serious because you shoot all the ASA Nationals...
> 
> Mahley, you ready to remove this Thread?


Thanks for the pep talk, Sonny. I needed that. :wink:


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## Blue X

Blue X said:


> Don't waste urctrainingvur argueing. Spend ur energy shooting ur bow.
> 
> I been married 20 years. Got a wife that likes to argue and never forgets my negative feed back. Can't say that I need that in my archery forum.
> 
> Blue X


What the heck, I wrote some German in there. Not sure how that went down.

Ment to say "Don't waste ur time arguing. Spend ur energy shooting ur bow. 

Blue X


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## SonnyThomas

Iowa shooter said:


> I quoted Terry Wunderhle once on this sub-forum and was strongly rejected.





reylamb said:


> You cant quote Terry, or actual coaches with value....you have to quote random ramblings from members here that supposedly walk on water, then your thoughts wouldn't be so strongly rejected......even if those thoughts are wrong, dead 100% wrong, as long as it comes from someone the AT masses approve of....you will be golden. Just never quote a respected international coach if his advice goes against the AT appointed ones....


That underlined was a mouthful.


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## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> That underlined was a mouthful.


:teeth:

Ya just gotta know how to act in these parts!!!!!!

Or get thicker skin, like I did....


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## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> :teeth:
> 
> Ya just gotta know how to act in these parts!!!!!!
> 
> Or get thicker skin, like I did....


You give coaching lessons?


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## carlosii

For every thread there's a place on the "Go Advanced" to rate a thread. If threads are gonna be "classified" in order to judge the level of expertise of the poster that might be a place to start. Just sayin'.


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## EPLC

IMO 8 pages on this thread is definitely "inappropriate"


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## Azzurri

My two cents the forum is slower paced than some of the others I frequent, and doesn't really have much in the way of disciplinary issues. I don't see any need to run people off.

Not a fan of censorship, including in the form of diverting posts out of a forum. I also think it tends to reflect the desire of people to control, which you might be ok with on one thread but not another. When that is possible, I'm not a fan of censoring at all because it shouldn't be "maybe, maybe no"t inconsistent. Been on some fora where a groupthink settles in and the "enlightened" are really just backslapping and not learning anything. You can be punished not so much for being inappropriate as new or different.

I think it's better to stay open, and if relatively new people come in asking for advice, take it as respect for your growing ability and knowledge and not intrusion on your space.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> IMO 8 pages on this thread is definitely "inappropriate"


The way my "settings" are set you just made it 9 pages. :wink:


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## Mahly

EPLC said:


> IMO 8 pages on this thread is definitely "inappropriate"


I don't see rational debate on how this forum is to operate as inappropriate.
I think it's good to hear all sides and ideas.


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> I don't see rational debate on how this forum is to operate as inappropriate.
> I think it's good to hear all sides and ideas.


Actually I forgot to add the


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## Mahly

Touché


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## SonnyThomas

So much has passed in this thread. Some of us are probably meaning the same thing, but coming out different or we are approaching subject differently and arriving at the same point. The biggest problem is, we are here, not face to face.


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## carlosii

SonnyThomas said:


> So much has passed in this thread. Some of us are probably meaning the same thing, but coming out different or we are approaching subject differently and arriving at the same point. The biggest problem is, we are here, not face to face.


Saw your face once Sonny...not an experience I'm eager to revisit. :wink:


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## SonnyThomas

carlosii said:


> Saw your face once Sonny...not an experience I'm eager to revisit. :wink:


For those who don't know... There I was just leaving range "H" of the Metro ASA ProAm and I come across Carlos. I thought he was a good natured and all around good guy as he was holding up this steel guard rail so it wouldn't fall on those still leaving range "H." I thought he needed some help and we sort chatted a bit while holding the up the guard rail. After that we've forum chatted in one manner or another. But dang, he's from across the border, in that foreign country, Indiana. Obligations, I shot some benefit over there in that foreign part of the country. Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. :wink:


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## DenCMSC

I have been very hesitant to post in this forum, but have thought about it for quite some time. I have actually started typing, and deleted the post on a few occasions. First off, I am, indeed, and "Intermediate/Advanced Competition Archer". I have been competing in various venues for many, many years, from 3D to indoor to a new quest for me this season, Field Archery, at the club, local, state, and regional levels. I see the need for "you folks" (I don't consider myself advanced enough to give much advise, particularly when there are so many more qualified folks wiling) to have a place to discuss the ins and outs of advanced archery, but keep in mind that others on the "borderline" are still thirsty for knowledge. I am a certified instructor, but I keep my instructing to kids and newbies. Enough about me, on to the gist of my post.

Target archery is a slowly dying sport. There, I said it. It is very, very hard to recruit new shooters into the fold, and becoming increasingly difficult to get folks "in to" archery in general. Several factors play in to this, for example up front cost of archery gear and the allowing of crossbows to be used for hunting by folks of all ages, let alone the bevy of other summer (or winter) activities vying for peoples time. However, the biggest "off-putting" thing I have seen (witnessed first hand) is how aloof and "better than you" some archers tend to be. They can't be bothered with stupid questions, or with taking a newbie under their wing, teaching them the ropes. There are a TON of rules to learn, not to mention tricks of the trade. My point is, this forum and it's not wanting "clutter" from those not "good enough" are a large part of the problem with archery today. 

That is all. It is likely you won't hear from me in this forum again, although I will be lurking, soaking up tips when I can....Just please keep in mind, folks, that every one of us had to start out new and "stupid" at some point.....


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## Mahly

DenCMSC,
Thanx for chiming in!
Please note than MANY of the people that are "regulars" here, if not all, do still frequent the General archery forum. Many are also active in Field, 3-D, and coaches forums.
There is no lack of helping beginners with this group.
This forum is a place to talk about more advanced techniques with more serious archers. 
We still wade through "clutter" in other forums, but we try to stay more focused here.
This forum has NOTHING to do with what is "wrong" with archery today.
Many would argue that archery is growing in popularity. Lots of new people getting into the sport. Yes, beginners. And a percentage of those beginners will get truly hooked, and want to take their archery to the next level. Then the next and so on.
This is for those people. We have taken our shooting to the "next" level several times over, and wish to continue. This IS beyond "what is the best brand of bow/release/arrow/vane?".
There is a reason this forum exists. By definition, some questions do not fit.
You will also notice that this group, being that is a more serious (about archery) group, we have less of the problems we see in gen pop that caused us to build this new forum. The fanboy, the hater, the name caller etc. 
I still go to gen pop to help people with their form and bow tuning or equipment issues. But I come her to learn how I can get myself to that next level. 
Just remember, most, if not everyone here has spent a great amount of time helping others. We didn't start in this forum, and most are not exclusive to this forum. We made this forum to get the help we give others, while still helping those who are moving up.


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## DenCMSC

Oh, I understand the intent of this forum, and agree that it should be a place to discuss more advanced archery topics than "what color nock is best", or the like. My point was simply to remind others to not forget that we all started "stupid". Every archery organization I belong to has something in its constitution and by-laws pertaining to "promoting/fostering archery".....Not pointing any fingers, as in my opinion archers are, for the most part, the most helpful and giving creatures on the planet. Just a not-so-subtle reminder to not get upset by "stupid" questions.....and keep up the great work, this is an excellent forum with just the type of information (for the most part) that I want to absorb.


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## Mahly

I actually think it's a misconception that people here really get upset at "stupid" (or shall we say inappropriate) posts here.
If someone sees a post they feel doesn't belong, they might say so. Some take offense to that. This doesn't mean the person questioning the post is upset, quite often that same person, in the same post will offer advice as well.
The reaction of some to this can be getting upset. 
People have a natural tendency to imagine emotion in text. Quite often that perceived emotion is wrong.
If someone says a post doesn't fit, it doesn't mean they are mad, they are just stating their opinion, often without emotion.
I have seen more emotion (or maybe I just perceive it wrongly) in responses to those posts.

That said, I agree that people should not get upset at inappropriate posts. Just make a polite comment to the OP, PM me, or report it. 
Life is too short to get mad over a post in the wrong forum!


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## SonnyThomas

DenCMSC, world leaders knock heads, so it carries on down 

Target archery dying? Field and Outdoor died a long time ago. Only the diehards keep a heart beat going. I can't remember a IAA Field Championship having more than 80 shooters of past years and two weeks ago the IAA Field Championship had 45 shooters. Years back our club was required in some manner to host a IAA Field event. The entire Field range was hand polished and at one time rated NFAA 3 or 4 Star and only a 14 Field range. That only 8 shooters came the field range was shut down.
Stories of old tell of entire families shooting Field and Outdoor target, 300 and more attending. Parking lots filled and over night campers were said common place. The world changed, kids have their things going on today.
Membership cost of the NFAA isn't helping. Our state; $65.00 and then $35 per Field, Outdoor and Indoor Championships. I was asked shoot our IAA Field Championship and refused. No way was I dropping a $100 to shoot one event. I faired very well when shooting Field and I noted somewhere, on some site, what you get in return if you win or place. Field and Hunter Championship patches, the 500 Club patch which I had to pay $5 to get. Two starter pins which if wanting the add-on bars you have to pay for. For 2nd or 3rd place, wow, a old price, $2.85 medal "made-in-China (I've got a bunch). State Championship title worth a pat on the back the day of winning and only used if the NFAA wants to use you for PR. Next day you're just another archer.

Indoor events, 20 yard target. Clubs don't have these. Clubs or shops have league events that are usually burned out in 4 to 5 weeks and left to smolder for another 5 weeks. People wanted to shoot 20 yard outdoor events. I offered to do so, offered the club grounds to do so. The 5 spot event would be run in conjunction with our 3Ds so 3D shooters could see, enter if they wanted. The IAA wanted rent on their target bunkers and this to promote what they wanted.... The highest ever Indoor State Championship I attended drew 91 shooters. Last I heard it was more like 50...

The NFAA Old Guard, state and national level, has hurt the NFAA more than anything. They don't want to change. Times have changed. Put in the corner, the IAA had to give to a one day Outdoor Championship instead of two days. The one day event draws more shooters, more productive for both the hosting club and the IAA than any other IAA event. Bigger example; 3D took off like a rocket and the Old Guard remained paper target oriented and still to this day. Our IAA eliminated the State 3D Championship with our club willing to pay up front to keep it going and put money in the IAA Treasury. 

As for "what color nock" questions, I may suggest another forum, but I do try to PM with the individual. Nice about PMing those with issues, no twenty to thirty people chiming in to "muddy up the water." Much appreciated have been the "thank you" notes.


----------



## Azzurri

Archery is doing fine. After years of playing soccer and starting to fall apart, I started looking for something else to do. I first tried small boat sailing, catamaran and sunfish kind of stuff (as well as windsurfing, which is a blast). I still do it informally, but a boat is expensive, it can be hard to find training, if you don't train much you get your tail whooped in races, the social scene is "clubby," and it is generally a hard sport for access. In comparison, you can get a bow and arrows cheap to start, coaches are all over, with that training you can progress and gain the respect of yourself and your peers, people are generally friendly, and while there might be some range fees and dues to pay, it's not like you have to join the yacht club to compete.

Trad archery is the only area with an inherent weakness, it's nominally throwback. Hence the defensiveness. In contrast compound and OR (and perhaps BB) are cutting edge and as long as people like hunting and target shooting there's a place for it.

I think what the sport needs is media exposure -- and I mean target competitions on TV, not Katniss -- and perhaps a little push towards supporting outdoor adult involvement (stuff between 20 yds and 70 m for your average Joe or Jane to try). But we had 100s of people shooting at our indoor state. And that's without a World Series of Poker or Strongest Man niche on TV, which we deserve more than those sports -- particularly if we pushed the head to head angle, which I think is inherently dramatic.

Along those lines, I get concerned when I hear this is not a newbie forum because that sounds like a sailing kind of attitude. I had a couple days people told me to stay on shore because the wind was blowing too hard. It's probably true but then enough of that without a simultaneous "but let me work with you tomorrow so we can catch you up," and I say efff this I'm doing something else. What "instinctives" sell aside, you don't make the big leaps and become intermediate or expert without help. I take lessons and work on that, and then I occasionally bother people on here for form or equipment advice. Like I said before, you should take people coming to you as a sign of respect for knowledge and ability.


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## SonnyThomas

Azzurri said:


> Along those lines, I get concerned when I hear* this is not a newbie forum *


The thought was General Archery Discussion forum for the most part would take care of the "newbies." In Intermediate/Advanced there shouldn't be discussions of "what color nocks" is best. You'll note equipment is listed elsewhere. To me, more things are personal preference than "best." In short we don't have 20 or 30 people telling of this brand or model is best.


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## Pete53

to the few that posted about the old guard NFAA ,i totally agree with the sport of outdoor and even indoor archery is dying and we may only see 3-d left someday. the old guard NFAA-MAA here in Minnesota is not doing well , but in our state of Minnesota the MSAA is doing well and the NFAA ignores this group of archer`s the MSAA with its around 2,000 members ,to me that`s a very foolish mistake the Nfaa is making. Here`s an example: this summer 2014 the weekend the NFAA- MAA held the national sectionals attendance was around 30 archer`s ,the MSAA held their state target that same weekend their attendance was 151 archer`s.> NFAA member`s which i am yet a member, i think there are some problems ???


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## Azzurri

We had 273 entries for our indoor state. 70-something for a 900 round state shot in 100 degrees.


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## montigre

Pete53 said:


> i think there are some problems ???


I agree---there is a problem with MSAA holding a state shoot on top of the NFAA Sectionals or vise verse. It seems both sides are doing the ignoring...


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## Azzurri

I'd actually say that Intermediate forum or FITA forum are the best place for newbies to ask stuff because you may get advice from former Olympians or the guy who wrote Stickbow, as well as us, as opposed to any ol' person trolling through that randomness in "General." Which is kind of like getting advice from some random guy at the range. Personally I find it interesting because no matter how much experience you have there'll be a tidbit or an angle buried in even basic advice. Also, I tend to think that while the questions seem basic, they often come from people with target aspirations and hint at a desire for deeper understanding. It's usually not tell me everything to buy or how to shoot, it's particular form or what arrows to get for a particular bow, which is actually a naive version of the same questions many of us are still asking.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Pete53 said:


> to the few that posted about the old guard NFAA ,i totally agree with the sport of outdoor and even indoor archery is dying and we may only see 3-d left someday. the old guard NFAA-MAA here in Minnesota is not doing well , but in our state of Minnesota the MSAA is doing well and the NFAA ignores this group of archer`s the MSAA with its around 2,000 members ,to me that`s a very foolish mistake the Nfaa is making. Here`s an example: this summer 2014 the weekend the NFAA- MAA held the national sectionals attendance was around 30 archer`s ,the MSAA held their state target that same weekend their attendance was 151 archer`s.> NFAA member`s which i am yet a member, i think there are some problems ???


Pete, I believe there are a couple other states with AA organization and doing well. Seems most of the spin offs came through the NFAA not permitting changes within the state. I mean if Field is the high then use Field that best benefits the state. If Outdoor, if 3D and so on. Remember when the Gold Tip monster diameter came on the scene? Members in our state wanted it banned to save both target stops and 3Ds. Nope, couldn't do due to the NFAA rules. At least one shop I know of refused to host another IAA Indoor event and gave birth to the Presley's Midwest Open. Presley's became the biggest Indoor event in the state and now moved to large facility may become even larger....


----------



## naptalene

Hi all,

The ONLY reason I'm posting here is because I am a mod on a Marine fishtank forum. We have similar issues. The hobby goes from simple to extraordinarily advanced. You just need some way of getting people to self moderate before they post in this subforum. I know this is easier said than done, and to be honest I have no idea how we achieved it on our site, but it's the best thing possible.

As an aside, i now only lurk in this subforum as I have no interest in hunting at all. The amount of information/ understanding I have gained has been incredible - mainly because I don't understand 99% of it. 
It let's me know what to search for.....
So I guess I'm saying thanks for making me feel stupid


----------



## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> I agree---there is a problem with MSAA holding a state shoot on top of the NFAA Sectionals or vise verse. It seems both sides are doing the ignoring...


If one has the control..... We had something of this differently. Our IAA picked a date to hold whatever Championship or other IAA sanctioned event, like the 3D Rendezvous and 3D Championship before it was eliminated. The 3D Championship was then open to the public, guests allowed to win Awards, a promotional gig. Okay, there was a "circuit" established, clubs didn't overlap other clubs in the immediate area, called respect. One club having a NFAA blood President got the his club to host a IAA 3D event. Only 30 or so shooters attended. Everyone one else followed the circuit club route. His club lost out. Our club got the 3D Championship and on our normal shoot date. Our club set a modern time record of 215 shooters. The 3D Championship continued for 2 or 3 years more, but never exceeded 108 shooters. 

The other ouch of the NFAA or state chapters, cost other than membership. A percentage was affixed each Championship, 25% of gross intake after deductions plus pay for all awards. Why such a big cut? Well, not taking from the great job our Secretary/Treasurer does, but the job is the biggest cost to the IAA, was something of over $4,000.00 per year, plus a floating bonus for doing a outstanding job. 

On the other side we have the Illinois ASA. Now Approaching 300 members, maybe down 60 to the NFAA, we have only a State Director and whatever number of Area Reps he or she wishes to appoint. No pay is involved. My ASA Area Rep benefits amounted to one year of membership serving, a collared ASA shirt, ASA ProAm practice pass and VIP parking at ASA ProAms. State Directors get a little more. 
State events and more for the state is posted on the ASA website.


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## SonnyThomas

naptalene said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The ONLY reason I'm posting here is because I am a mod on a Marine fishtank forum. We have similar issues. The hobby goes from simple to extraordinarily advanced. You just need some way of getting people to self moderate before they post in this subforum. I know this is easier said than done, and to be honest I have no idea how we achieved it on our site, but it's the best thing possible.
> 
> As an aside, i now only lurk in this subforum as I have no interest in hunting at all. The amount of information/ understanding I have gained has been incredible - mainly because I don't understand 99% of it.
> It let's me know what to search for.....
> So I guess I'm saying thanks for making me feel stupid


You're welcome. You'll learn though. I once thought FOC meant For Only Competitors  but I learned...well, somethings. Just like being married, I learned when to duck...most of the time.


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## Pete53

here`s some more info this spring 2014 the MSAA here in minnesota had over 1,000 archer`s participate in the 2014 state indoor and the NFAA does not even seem to care to try to improve membership here in minnesota.we have a real strong youth progam in the MSAA here in minnesota.


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## SonnyThomas

To have that many competitors the MSAA needs a Big Congrats, Job Well Done.


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