# The Olympic Recurve and recreational archers



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This may sound like a little bit of rambling, but stay with me here. There is a trend in our sport that I think recreational club leaders need to be in tune with.

Unlike team sports, archery (much like golf, bowling, etc) is still very much an individual sport where the performance of an athlete rests solely on their skill, preparation and how well they handle the circumstances at hand. Further, archery is not a reactionary sport like tennis or wrestling, so nothing any other athlete does has a material affect on their results.

Because of this, athletes can focus solely on their own preparation. It is even more personal in nature than sports like golf, since our "course" never changes and aside from dealing with wind, we are not required to change our physical movements or strategy during play. There are no "lucky shots" or "bad breaks" and we have but one tool to use. 

These aspects of our sport can be both a blessing and a curse. Allow me to explain what I mean by that. Because it is such a personal endeavor, the results tend to be very directly linked to an athlete's preparation. This is often what attracts people to archery. Many archers like the sport specifically because it is not a subjectively judged sport, the conditions don't change and because they aren't subject to the actions of their opponent. They get exactly what they deserve - nothing more, and nothing less, based on their performance. It removes any excuses, but also affords the ultimate in rewards when things go well as nobody else can take credit for it or say "lucky shot..." at the end of the day.

Where it works against the athlete, especially in the recreational ranks, is when - for whatever reason - we can not prepare as well as we would like. Often, due to age, injury or busy schedules, we can no longer maintain the level of proficiency we once had. This makes it very easy for a sport that was once fun, to become a source of stress and disappointment. 

I have seen this many times over the years, especially with teenage archers and young adults. Many of them have prepared and trained for years to reach a high level of proficiency, then their lives get busy with other responsibilities. The same is often true of young professionals who start a family. 

I think this is especially true with young Olympic recurve archers due to the extra physical conditioning required, and now the added stress of high-performance national programs. When the skills start to wane - for whatever reason - we often see archers who shoot recurve drop out at a faster rate than those who shoot compound or barebow. When you look closely at the reasons for this, it makes sense.

It is my hope that recreational club leaders are in tune with this and encourage their archers to come up with a "post competitive" plan to continue shooting after the peak scores are behind that archer. It happens for everyone at some point, so the question is, how do you prepare them for it? It pains me to see so many of our talented, hard working archers just drop out of the sport because they can no longer perform to the level they once had. It also worries me that - at least in recurve - we are inching closer to a Korean-like scenario where archers who pick up that style of bow are not afforded the space to just shoot for fun, with no expectations of making a "team" or competitive program.

I'd love to hear some stories from club leaders and coaches about how they have helped their archers through this transition, from peak competitive ability to "shooting for the fun of shooting" as a recreational archer. I think it's a real art to be able to do this - to retain these archers "post-peak." I also think we all benefit when highly skilled and experienced competitive archers stay in the game. Whether they realize it or not, they have a LOT to contribute to the archers around them.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The pat answer is to have an adjustment of expectations based on time allowed for an activity. But as we all know, our expectations do not always fit reality. It's just human nature. Why don't you ask Rick, as he went from the top of the mountain, to clearly having some fun. Or ask Jay Barrs. Those two can give us all some valuable insight.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick is a great example of someone who has been at the top, and has learned how to compete for fun years later. Ed Eliason is another. 

I know from time to time I see a few 20-somethings who shoot recurve after college, but not many. The recurve archers in their late 20's and 30's who are competing "just for fun" are scarce as hen's teeth. We just don't have them, esp. in the women's ranks. However, over on the 3D, compound spots and traditional side, there are a lot of them. 

So what can we do about the attrition of recurve archers in that 30-50 year old demographic? Anything?

The participation in the senior male recurve division at our state events is just pitiful, and the senior women is worse still. Are we okay with losing two decades of interest in the sport (until those recurvers can shoot in the senior games, or the masters division), or losing them to compound or barebow?


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The physical strength needed to be only modestly competent with an Oly recurve requires more time than many who are starting careers are willing to put forth. If one were to put down their recurve for a month, making any type of a reasonable shot is not possible. Contrast that to compound, where there are many examples of people who have had long lay offs, come back, shoot comfortably, have fun and make decent shots.


----------



## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Rick is a great example of someone who has been at the top, and has learned how to compete for fun years later. Ed Eliason is another.
> 
> I know from time to time I see a few 20-somethings who shoot recurve after college, but not many. The recurve archers in their late 20's and 30's who are competing "just for fun" are scarce as hen's teeth. We just don't have them, esp. in the women's ranks. However, over on the 3D, compound spots and traditional side, there are a lot of them.
> 
> ...


I competed as a teenager pretty heavily back in the late 90's (Jr. USAT's, Jr. Worlds, etc) up until I was 18 or 19. Then life started to happen and I just couldn't afford the time to keep pace anymore. Rather than shoot at what I felt was a "diminished capacity", I just decided to stop shooting all-together and take up other interests that I felt more comfortable participating in at a hobby level. After so many years of competing and training in archery to be the best, the thought of shooting "just for fun" kind of felt like failure.

Fast forward to today, I am now in my early 30's and have picked up the Olympic recurve again and have begun to dabble in competition again. It has quickly become clear that I am nowhere near the level I once was, and that in order to compete at the top of the mountain again will require more of a time/money commitment than I am able to invest. Even after all this time it is still difficult to accept shooting at a hobby level, when all my muscle memory says "TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!!".

John, you bring up an excellent issue here that I think is often overlooked. I wish I had a solution to offer other than encouraging people to consider switching from Olympic recurve to barebow/compound, but thought I would just share my experience.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well, just by way of statistic, I've just gone back to olympic recurve full-time at age 53. After fighting nearly a year of my compounds literally pulling my arms out of their sockets, I finally just said "enough!" to myself about 3 weeks ago. After $100's in tournament entry fees went down the drain because of a case of epicondylitis in the right arm, I dismantled all my compounds, put them in the closet and haven't looked at them since. They're going on the market soon as I have a time and place to hawk them to a new owner. Out came the Win & Win, bowstand and ACC's and I haven't looked back.

Fortunately, I never got to the level on olympic recurve I got to on compound, so I can't go in any direction except up at this point. Soon as the elbow heals up, that is. 

So speaking from the other end of things, as a participant, I think it's just vital that it be fun first and foremost. Once it starts to become work (or painful), it's probably time to reevaluate and make some changes. I can only imagine what it's like to decline after a peak in one's performance, so I don't have that to contend with. But it took me a year to come back to The Good Side of the Force and that was too long lol.

As for the older folks shooting olympic style, we truly are a pretty rare animal these days. But we have a few locally including myself and the girlfriend (though she shoots barebow which is unfortunately even more rare around here)....

DM


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ShooterPhill said:


> I competed as a teenager pretty heavily back in the late 90's (Jr. USAT's, Jr. Worlds, etc) up until I was 18 or 19. Then life started to happen and I just couldn't afford the time to keep pace anymore. Rather than shoot at what I felt was a "diminished capacity", I just decided to stop shooting all-together and take up other interests that I felt more comfortable participating in at a hobby level. After so many years of competing and training in archery to be the best, the thought of shooting "just for fun" kind of felt like failure.
> 
> Fast forward to today, I am now in my early 30's and have picked up the Olympic recurve again and have begun to dabble in competition again. It has quickly become clear that I am nowhere near the level I once was, and that in order to compete at the top of the mountain again will require more of a time/money commitment than I am able to invest. Even after all this time it is still difficult to accept shooting at a hobby level, when all my muscle memory says "TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!!".
> 
> John, you bring up an excellent issue here that I think is often overlooked. I wish I had a solution to offer other than encouraging people to consider switching from Olympic recurve to barebow/compound, but thought I would just share my experience.


I'm glad you did. Yours is a story I have seen, and have experienced with my own archers for a while now. The trouble with having trained and competed at a high level with recurve is that it's hard for anyone to sustain that for a long period of time, which does not lend itself well to recreational sport. This is why we see people either drop out, or gravitate to compound or barebow as they age. And maybe we are just okay with the notion that high level recurve is just a "young person's" sport (with a few obvious exceptions) and we move on. But I do think that not only is it worth discussing, I feel as a coach that it's part of my job to help those archers chart a path through "post-peak" recreational archery.

I just hate to lose these archers. Our sport needs them. They have a great deal of archery knowledge and competitive experience to pass along.


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

First, I don’t think that any young (USAT, JDT, Youth Worlds, State Camp…..etc.) shooter would be receptive to entertaining a lecture on ‘what do I do when my competitive days are over’. The coach sets the example of what can be done when the competitive days are gone. The Coach coaches, the coach shoots at the range, the coach competes every once in a while. His/Her actions are what the plan is and showcases what’s available to the once competitive young archer. 

Having said that, I find it unremarkable that these young people stop shooting when they are no longer competitive. Archery is a lonely sport. The competitive kids are driven by the love of, or need, to be competitive. Being successful in competition is what drives them to spend endless hours, alone, on the range. Yes, they enjoy shooting, but they enjoy success more! So when that success goes away, they stop shooting and reintegrate with their friends. What we'll see years down the line is that many of these young people will return with young kids of their own.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

First a quick reality check. 
97.5% of Olympic shooters in this country are recreational, 2% are delusional and MAYBE 0.5% can take it beyond that. That 0.5% is probably a stretch. 

I agree with what you're saying about life getting in the way of "shooting", but shooting for that 97.5% is a hobby and nothing more. Life does get in the way, and that's probably the way it should be. Sometimes, things besides shooting just become more interesting. Some people come back to it later on when life settles down and some don't. Just the way it is. 

As far as coaches and "leaders", whatever leaders are, figuring out what to do - besides throttling the training and workload based on the shooter's ability and available time, the rest is up to the shooter and his family, not the coach and not the club or organization. 

Maybe it's a sign of age, but other than trying to fit training schedules with life schedules, I generally don't try to "keep somebody shooting" at a competitive or recreational level, if that's not their priority. Heck, there are times I'd rather play with my car than shoot and I seem to recall a guy who put archery on the back burner for a while to play golf, I mean really, GOLF???

Viper1 out.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> It is my hope that recreational club leaders are in tune with this and encourage their archers to come up with a "post competitive" plan to continue shooting after the peak scores are behind that archer. It happens for everyone at some point, so the question is, how do you prepare them for it? It pains me to see so many of our talented, hard working archers just drop out of the sport because they can no longer perform to the level they once had. It also worries me that - at least in recurve - we are inching closer to a Korean-like scenario where archers who pick up that style of bow are not afforded the space to just shoot for fun, with no expectations of making a "team" or competitive program.


I'm wondering if that is some of the appeal of Barebow? Switching styles allows an archer to set up new goals and expectations, rather than just watch their Oly recurve scores continue to fall below their zenith.


----------



## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Great topic.

I would say this comes down to what the real heart issue is. Is it the score that is all that matters? is it the perceived fame from doing well? is it the winning of what ever tournament they are in (i.e. its the win, its the trophy, but not the score that matters)? is it trying to win the love of one of their parents approval? Or is it really the love of the archery by itself. People can do all of this without a love of archery itself. People are really good at lying to themselves, convincing themselves its one thing when in reality its something completely different.

When people have a true love for something, it becomes part of them, it sticks with them for better or for worse, it becomes your companion, etc. 

If someone has a real honest love for recurve archery itself and not the other things they use archery to get, they will stick with it. Otherwise, it will just get old, and they will move onto other things without a second thought.

Great topic


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto said:


> First, I don’t think that any young (USAT, JDT, Youth Worlds, State Camp…..etc.) shooter would be receptive to entertaining a lecture on ‘what do I do when my competitive days are over’. The coach sets the example of what can be done when the competitive days are gone. The Coach coaches, the coach shoots at the range, the coach competes every once in a while. His/Her actions are what the plan is and showcases what’s available to the once competitive young archer.
> 
> Having said that, I find it unremarkable that these young people stop shooting when they are no longer competitive. Archery is a lonely sport. The competitive kids are driven by the love of, or need, to be competitive. Being successful in competition is what drives them to spend endless hours, alone, on the range. Yes, they enjoy shooting, but they enjoy success more! So when that success goes away, they stop shooting and reintegrate with their friends. What we'll see years down the line is that many of these young people will return with young kids of their own.


You make some good points. Esp. your first paragraph. But I do think a coach can be a little more proactive than just setting the example. Each archer is different, as we all know, but there is no harm in sitting down with an archer and asking them what their plans are when life gets too busy for them to train at the level they have been training at, or when the scores aren't what they used to be. And then have some constructive suggestions, as a way of encouraging them to stay in the sport.

What I am tired of seeing is all that knowledge walk away because they think they have nothing to offer. They do, but it just might have never been explained to them in that way.

And it doesn't always have to be shooting, but if they can continue to shoot - perhaps in another discipline - then I think that's great.



> When people have a true love for something, it becomes part of them, it sticks with them for better or for worse, it becomes your companion, etc.


You're absolutely right, and I think a good coach or mentor can help a very competitive archer pause and take a look around at other ways to enjoy and contribute to the sport as they move forward.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I'm wondering if that is some of the appeal of Barebow? Switching styles allows an archer to set up new goals and expectations, rather than just watch their Oly recurve scores continue to fall below their zenith.


This is absolutely some of the appeal of both barebow and compound for a post-peak recurve archer. And there are a lot of very successful compounders who trained like heck with the recurve in their younger years... Wilde, Wifler, Menzer and others. Plenty of barebow archers too, like myself, Stonebraker and others. 

It's very, very difficult to put down the Olympic recurve, pick it up years later and ever get back to the same level. Many people who have shot Oly. recurve at a high level understand this because they have taken time off at some point, and then had to work very hard just to get back to where they once were.


----------



## mudcat dale (Sep 9, 2015)

For what it's worth, I guess I'll chime in. I shot 4h compound as a kid and bowhunted in high school & college. Due to some shoulder issues I quit shooting, but later made a short lived pass at bowhunting again. I recently began shooting OR at the age of 43 and I'm loving it. Part of the reason I began shooting was because I was spending so much time at the range for my son, but part of it was fascination with the technical precision required for OR. I've been shooting in some competitions and I'm having a ball. 

As far as keeping people in or even recruiting new shooters who aren't "in their prime" I see a couple of things that seem to be barriers. This may sound strange, but, calling this discipline "Olympic" recurve lends itself to the idea that this type of bow and shooting is only about trying to compete at the highest levels and anyone without those aspirations "need not apply". I know that's not true, but, perception means a lot. 

This may sound strange as well, but I also think the clicker runs quite a few potential shooters off. Perhaps if it was presented more along the lines of "a recurve bow with sight and stabilizer" and less as "a full OR rig (with clicker mandatory)" it might help as well. It might actually be more "fun" and less "work" for some if the perception was that the clicker was an optional accessory and not mandatory.

I may be way out in left field with both of these ideas, but, it's just how things have seemed to me coming in fresh.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't think you're out in left field at all. I agree with both of your observations as I have seen the same thing myself. It is actually quite common to see some of the more "mature" Olympic recurve shooters not use a clicker. For many, it's because they started shooting that discipline before the clicker came about, and a few still see it as a "crutch" that they don't want to use. But I suspect for far more, it is as you say - a way to reduce the physical expense of shooting that style, and to enjoy themselves a little more while doing it. There is nothing wrong with that logic and there is a good chance that when I shoot the OR as a Masters in a few years, I may not use it either.


----------



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

I guess the appeal to me at this time is the fact that this is an individual sport and that you alone are responsible for the results. And at times I like to shoot alone, it puts you in a zen. 
And some days when I do this I relate it to past achievements. But realistically at best I'd be just a competent shooter capable of testing others who are better. 
Now at 57, with sore hands and elbows I hope to shoot tomorrow at 60m, it'll be 11^c and it'll be the first time for me to shoot since Nov 4th, so it might be a challenge to get 100 arrows out. Anyway I'm mildly excited at the prospect. 

What would make the experience better for me would be the chance to shoot with others in the same discipline and age group, but sadly there aren't too many +50 recurve archers around here. So in areas with enough of the same in a group I could see a trend emerging, the desire is there I think and archery certainly has grown in every age group in the last 5 years.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I don't see this as something that can be influenced externally. You either love the sport for the sake of the sport, and so you will continue to participate no matter how far down your scores drop, or you were in it mostly for the competition and once you can't keep up with the younger crowd, you are out of there. 

For every Rick and Edwin and limbwalker, people who have reached the highest levels of competition, there are a dozen who, once they've had their moment at the top, are never heard from again in the archery world. Go over the list of past Olympic team members and see how many who stopped being competitive at that level are still shooting. Why have they disappeared from the archery scene? Who can say?

I can't make myself believe that their coaches could have had any influence on keeping them in the game, and I think the same goes for archers who peaked at lower levels either. 

I really believe it's that basic. If you love just watching the arrows fly, you'll be on the line until your last breath, and nobody can teach that.


----------



## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I also have seen a lot of very good archers stop shooting once into their "adult" years. The vast majority have never returned to it, albeit a couple are showing signs of interest again. The biggest reason for not resuming archery is "I don't shoot bad scores, because bad scores are not fun." Just for reference, I'm referring to archers who at one time were capable of 1200's, and one was 1300+ on her best day. To them, 1000's and 1100's are essentially not even worth noting. 

I have tried selling archery as a social event interrupted by launching arrows (essentially the same approach I take when golfing), and their competitive natures coupled with an awarenesss of past achievements keeps them from seeing archery tournaments in this light. 

For my current crop of archers, I temper their expectations with the "garbage in garbage out" principle. If you want to shoot 1200+, you had better be prepared to shoot 5 days a week, year round. Lots of good practice makes for lots of good shooting. 

I also encourage "forgiving" themselves for having a bad day/tournament/practice. If an archer misses several weeks due to school/vacation/illness/life, then I encourage them to work on getting the feel back, as opposed to worrying about a higher than normal amount of "bad" arrows. In this way I hope to have archers who can appreciate the work necessary to get good, plan and practice accordingly, and have realistic expectations of themselves at all times.


----------



## huckduck (Nov 24, 2014)

i'll chime in with a quip. its not specific to archery, but my mentality when i pick up activities

I do it for personal satisfaction and the challenge to myself. by nature i'm a competitive person, so when i started archery, i did it to try it out just because, and got hooked. not on the competitions (shooting my first one next weekend), not on the training (man i hate training), but because i want to best myself. maybe competitions will bite me and i'll have the urge to beat everyone. But i'm the kind of person who wants to be better than mediocre, and if i can't be, then i won't do it at all. personal pride i guess. whether or not theres programs to keep me going 20 years from now will probably not have much of an impact on whether or not i keep up with an activity, it will boil down to (for me) whether not i feel i'm still in a spot where i'm satisfied that i'm better than someone else. (i know that sounds shallow).


----------



## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

> I have tried selling archery as a social event interrupted by launching arrows (essentially the same approach I take when golfing), and their competitive natures coupled with an awarenesss of past achievements keeps them from seeing archery tournaments in this light.


 This is probably why. 

Unlike golf which usually has more of a camaraderie atmosphere archery somehow ends up an on the edge competition focused event. The casual relaxed element just isn't there. As much as some try to hide it or pretend it doesn't matter their primary goal is points. Been shooting for a couple years now and I see it. I used to play golf and it never got inside my head like this does. We'd drink beers launch balls into the lake for fun or race the carts. Score cards were never given serious attention. For that matter, golf never caused the level of self induced pressure to perform like archery does. I don't agree that age plays as much a role in ability though. I think it's years behind the string. A person reaches their top after X number of years and realizes that's as far as they're going to get and lose interest. Chasing the peak knowing it's still over the horizon somewhere is probably one of if not biggest motivator that keeps people pressing on. It does for me and I'm past 50. Maybe that's the trick, convince a person their show isn't over.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash, I hear what you're saying but I'm not willing to take that view. I too have noticed that many of our former top archers are conspicuously absent from events and that is too bad. They have so much to offer besides just competing for themselves.

But teaching/coaching/mentoring is not for everyone and I'll be the first to admit that as well.

What I hope is that coaches are at least TALKING to their archers about how to keep the sport fun when the scores aren't what they used to be. To me, this means getting my archers to try different disciplines or different types of events. It means taking my high achieving archers and putting them in mentoring roles within the JOAD/AA club so they become comfortable with teaching and begin to see the rewards that come with sharing what they have learned. 

One of the things I'm really glad to see happening with our RA/JDT program at the OTC is for those archers to serve as mentors and teachers to the up and coming archers. Because as we all know, probably 90% of them will never shoot better than they are while at the OTC, and once they leave that program there needs to be another reason for them to stay involved in the sport. I would like to see them cross-train with more than just the recurve, and maybe now that we have the compound JDT, some of them will do that too. 

Rancho, I played golf pretty seriously for over a decade. Got down to a 4 handicap and would flirt with breaking par every few weeks. For me at least, archery is always more relaxing.  ha, ha.

Maybe because I grew up "playing" with bows and arrows and it has always been a game to me. The fact that I had some competitive success didn't change that in my mind. Maybe that's the key - making sure your young archers or new archers see it as a lifetime "game" they can play first, and then if they choose for it to be serious competition for a while that's fine but hopefully they will come back to play after that.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

A bit of a dichotomy. If "fun" is anything besides smashing arrows against each other in the middle of the target, then the actual motives of the shooter are in question. I have a problem with baby-sitting shooters. 

IMHO (and that's all it is, MHO) what you're describing is having archers becoming jacks of all trades and masters of none. I like "fooling around" with different disciplines as much as the next guy, but right now, Olympic recurve is home base. After 35 years of instinctive/bare bow (old definition), I can pretty much say what my priorities are. One thing I see all too often are a lot of people in it for "fun" or the social aspects and never becoming half way decent. 

I know that sounds like an elitist attitude, and well, it is. I'd rather see fewer dedicated people at the range than a 10x as many there for yucks. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ranchoarcher said:


> This is probably why.
> 
> Unlike golf which usually has more of a camaraderie atmosphere archery somehow ends up an on the edge competition focused event. The casual relaxed element just isn't there. As much as some try to hide it or pretend it doesn't matter their primary goal is points. Been shooting for a couple years now and I see it. I used to play golf and it never got inside my head like this does. We'd drink beers launch balls into the lake for fun or race the carts. Score cards were never given serious attention. For that matter, golf never caused the level of self induced pressure to perform like archery does. I don't agree that age plays as much a role in ability though. I think it's years behind the string. A person reaches their top after X number of years and realizes that's as far as they're going to get and lose interest. Chasing the peak knowing it's still over the horizon somewhere is probably one of if not biggest motivator that keeps people pressing on. It does for me and I'm past 50. Maybe that's the trick, convince a person their show isn't over.


This is brilliant insight! Like more normal 'romance', many archers who fall in love with the Recurve want to know everything, be with the bow 24/7, learn everything, be everything, do everything. For many, having wrung out the last drop of uncharted knowledge/capacity, the candle flame slips from white hot to blue hot. Sad is the day the dog figures out that he's as close to the mechanical rabbit as he's ever going to get.

Not sure there's a proper 'fix' to the puzzle John's brought up. Look at the sprinting events in track and field - the unrelenting objectivity of the clock, and the huge demands on training efforts ... you don't see a lot of sprinters trying to maintain their proficiency ad infinitum. But maybe encouraging them to transition to soccer has some merit - still utilize their speed as an adjunct to a new endeavor. So, the Oly recurver to barebow or compound? I'd love to see a triathlon (3Bow) type event that required the archer to shoot all three dispciplines in the same competition (25 arrows each of recurve, barebow, compound). Now all of a sudden the archer has chasing to do - more knowledge, more technique, more nuance ... more ROMANCE! 

Although maybe something that might speed up those returns is a Masters 40+ division. I know Rick McKinney has opined that 40+ would be a legit division.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Tony, you never know who is going to catch the bug. Being disdainful of arrow flingers, might discourage someone who will be a competitor. I agree with those who say a passion for shooting will keep people in the sport. Some develop that passion in time. I have seen both kids and adults slowly go from casual flingers to serious competitors. 

I'm as competitive as most, but I enjoy shooting period. That's probably why I've stuck around as long as I have. I think those high level shooters who can no longer maintain their elevated level of performance can break two ways. The Darrell Pace's of the world will put down their bows competitively, while the Rick McKinney's will compete until they drop. Kind of like Jack and Arnie in golf. Darrell still contributes heavily to the sport, just not as a competitor. Rick still brings it on the shooting line.

I'm not sure there is an answer to keeping high level Oly recurve performers in the sport after they've stopped putting forth the all out effort. Again, Ed, Rick, Glenn and Jay may have some interesting insights.


----------



## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I think that, as leaders and coaches, the best we can do is help archers keep their performance in perspective. The pinnacle of the sport, indeed any sport, is a pyramid with a tiny fraction at the top and a whole bunch at the base. You have to push hard to reach the pinnacle, but it is OK not to be there too. There are several elements to reaching the top - skill, practice, luck, dedication, and support. Having all those stars aligned at the right time in the right place is rare, but that is what makes it special. It does not mean you don't try. Being able to appreciate and celebrate the success of others without denigrating others or your own is called "sportsmanship".

One nice thing about archery is that there are different equipment classes and styles with different goals and expectations. Shifting equipment allows you to reset your expectations, and gives you something different to focus on. That might be a good post-competitive strategy, as well as a shift to teaching, coaching, and promotion/administration of the sport.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> I know that sounds like an elitist attitude, and well, it is. I'd rather see fewer dedicated people at the range than a 10x as many there for yucks.


I guess that's just a matter of taste, but I've had some of the most fun at ranges with the folks that are there just for grins and giggles. You never know what's going to come in out of the day or night and onto the shooting line - that's how I met the girlfriend, for instance. Hey, some of my best friends are barebow shooters... Just kidding just kidding! 

But seriously, this is supposed to be fun, not a job or something that we "have" to do. I'm not saying it's bad to be driven or willing to fight against obstacles to getting better and so on, but I do think it's bad when it stops delivering a reward but we try to continue on with it anyway. How that happens when it happens is a highly individual thing and I don't think there's any way to really predict the when/how there and forestall it when it comes. Sometimes even we don't really know why or how we lose interest in things - I've lost interest in lifelong hobbies literally overnight for various reasons and the interests have never come back. It was nobody's fault; something like a switch just turned off in my mind and I walked away never to look back.

It's sad to me, and I feel a loss when it happens to me or to someone else, but I understand it. That doesn't mean I like it, only that I understand it. I will say, though, that closeting my compounds last month gave me no displeasure at all LOL. Those things hurt my shoulders and arms so bad, I don't care if they sit there in that closet until my apt. complex is finally condemned. It's good to have my Win&Win sitting on my stand in the living room again and I hope I never put it away.

DM


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gabe - 

Maybe I wasn't clear. People can shoot for whatever reason they want, that's their business. 
However, my range time is precious and I won't have them waste my time in the process. 
If a brand new shooter comes to me for instruction, they get a pretty boiler plate lesson and discussion on "where to go from here". 
Unless I see some spark (and attitude trumps raw ability), it doesn't go much further. 

Look, there are a lot of people making pretty good money "coaching". I don't charge for my time, and I certainly won't have it wasted on somebody there for yucks. 

So to your point, when they "catch the bug", they get my attention. If the loose it later on, I have to throttle back. 
It's what we all do, some just don't admit it.

And for the record, I've never tried to "get more people in to archery" or into any hobby I was involved with. 
I want the people in it, to do it better. 
It really is the quality vs. quantity thing.

edit:

DM - 

And that's fine, just not the way I work. 
When I'm on the line, it's all business. Get in my way, and you'll be told where to go (nicely at first).
After we're done, then it's time for drinks, dinner and socializing. It's pretty rare a bunch of us don't go out for dinner after a Saturday session. 
I think part of the discipline is being able to separate shooting time from everything else. 

And Yeah, that doesn't work for a lot of people, and I couldn't be happier about that. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## twofinger (Feb 12, 2012)

i never made it to the top tried like hell, now i just shoot to enjoy the sport that i love. We all have different reasons to do what we do i now shoot with a great group of people we are shooting an nfaa 300 round right now we shoot one game take a break and visit and we do it after the second. my shoulder is doing better and i will pick up the recurve again why? just to have fun. for those who take it seriously great i respect you and will support you. when i am on the line i do the best i can but i don't sweat it no more. i wish those that have been to the top would continue to shoot it would be an honor to me to be next to them on the shooting line.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Honestly, the best thing to do (which I might get flamed for saying in this section) is to get them away from their main competition field and get them on a 3D course or even Field course. The change in venue might be enough to get some of the fun back in their shooting. Those two types of shooting came about because people got bored shooting standard target rounds.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tony, what I'm talking about is a purpose and a plan for post-peak archers (that's a lot of P's!). You and I both know what it takes to reach an archer's full potential, but there isn't always time for that in a person's life, or maybe the archer is at a stage in their life when they will never again reach those scores. So rather than just quit and find something else to do, I'd love to see coaches and mentors work with their archers in a constructive way to not only utilize their technical and competitive experience, but find ways to make archery fun again.



> Chasing the peak knowing it's still over the horizon somewhere is probably one of if not biggest motivator that keeps people pressing on. It does for me and I'm past 50. Maybe that's the trick, convince a person their show isn't over.


I think from a personal competition standpoint, this is important. I know it is for me, and for guys like Rick Stonebraker who will never again shoot the scores with the Olympic bow that we once did. So being naturally competitive and having developed a love for archery, we find other challenges. Every year, I set one archery-related competitive goal for myself. Two years ago, it was setting the TFAA indoor record for the "Traditional" division. Last year it was winning Outdoor Nationals in barebow, and winning the Clout round with a barebow. This year it's something else. In a few years, I'll be a Masters and will have some new opportunities to do things I've not done before. 

For others it may be trying 3-D archery for the first time, or Field archery, or maybe learning compound or barebow. Heck, for some compound archers it may be learning Olympic! But a good coach and mentor will see when an archer needs these options and encourage and support them. The idea that once an archer is past their peak, the coach's job is done is IMO not doing all we can do for the sport or more importantly for the student.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Or maybe top archers should act like top golfers and once they've reached their peak with one coach, switch coaches and see if changing everything will get them to a higher peak. And not to get this started back up, maybe that's another downside to a "national training system" because there are less systems out there for archers that need to find what works for them.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's assuming that technique has that much to do with reaching one's peak. And IMO, I don't believe it does. When you're shooting OR, physical and mental conditioning outweigh having "exactly" the right technique which is why once an archer is no longer able to maintain the physical or mental peak performance, their scores will begin to decline.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

That's the problem, you're looking for a boiler plate solution and there isn't one, at least not in my experience. After some one has "peaked" the course they follow is based on too many factors, not the least of which is their psychological make up. For some people not being able to shoot as well as they once did is all the reason they need to drop out or pursue other interests. Some can just accept that family/life responsibilities and age have caused definite changes and they can still enjoy shooting. Yes, some may "need" a different venue and others are fine just relaxing and shooting the way they always did for enjoyment or, what the heck, even take up coaching. Sometimes, even just a 10# drop in weight is all it takes! 

Remember I said that first timers get a boiler plate lesson? Well so do entry level and some intermediate shooters. After that, the rules or text book goes out the window and they start to develop their own style and find out what exactly works for them. You may not agree, but there are some damn good shooters breaking every rule in the book (at least to a casual observer). The same thing holds true for what happens after they have "peaked" (whatever that means). As a coach or instructor, it NOT my job to have a plan for them to wind down. I look at what's going on, discuss the situation with the individual and take it from there - it really can be as simple as the throttling thing or even suggesting an extended time off - leaving coming back or not as an option.

The LAST thing we need is another usa-archery type set of guidelines on archery retirement. And frankly, if a coach can't figure that out on a case by case basis, he/she probably isn't a very good a coach, because they lack the experience of dealing with the entire life cycle of an "athlete". Unfortunately, most times that experience only comes with age. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tony, there is no "problem." I'm just wanting to get a discussion going to exchange ideas. Hopefully some coaches who haven't thought about this, might because of this discussion.

We all know there are a lot of factors involved.


----------



## ACFrost (Jul 26, 2015)

This may not be exactly on point, but i enjoyed reading these posts and they got my mind wandering a bit:

As someone who pretty much wasted any chance at any competitive athletic peak that i might have had on the couch and more opportunities than I care to think about, I do occasionally wonder why now in my late 30s I find myself using my minimal free time and money pursuing something as seemingly impractical as Olympic style recurve archery.

Why would I spend money, get up stupid early (for me) on a Saturday to drive an hour each way, for archery lessons of all things, just in the hopes that I'll do a little better than the last time? Why should I force myself to practice each day after work? Really, what the heck is the point o end goal? I honestly don't know. There's no glory, fame, no pot of gold or grand legacy waiting at the end of the road.

It's the same with bjj, I started at almost 30, after my younger brother had already been training for 10+ years and received a black belt. That's another young man's game for sure. What could I possibly hope to accomplish against stronger, faster, younger and less damaged guys in the prime of youth who have been training every day all day since they were 5?

Why keep pursuing short term goals when the "ultimate" long term goals have already passed by without even a blip on the radar?

I guess the answer is the activity itself is the payoff, I don't know. Journey vs destination and all that. But at the same time I feel there is no good reason why I shouldn't somehow eventually be capable of having every shot I take be dead center of the target. Why should that be impossible?

I can sort of see two sides, one is that i would love it if there was a clear purpose or evident goal, a "road map" or program to enroll in, something to point the way for archers with "realistically" limited potential, but who still want to get the most out of it they can. I'd jump all over that. But would that really help solve any problems or provide any benefit? Maybe, I don't know.

At the same time, I wonder if alot of the issues and concerns that might drive an aging\past peak archer to give it up (or any other hobby, pursuit, or endeavor for that matter) might be beyond the scope of anything a coach is really in a position to, equipped for, or should be expected to help with. Maybe not though, I don't know.


----------



## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*"After that, the rules or text book goes out the window and they start to develop their own style and find out what exactly works for them. You may not agree, but there are some damn good shooters breaking every rule in the book (at least to a casual observer)." *
IMHO......This is the edge of the envelope, when great steps and even leaps, are made. Take notes and be authentic in the feed back you get. *Seacrest Out!*


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I believe that a coach that can also fill the role of mentor (some can, some cannot) is in a perfect position to help an athlete transition post-peak. I'm just not sure this is something that is talked about very often.

Some of us invest so many years into the most important period of development of our archers. It's only natural that we would want to help them devise a game plan for how to continue in the sport when they can no longer perform at their peak. If we don't do it, who will? Who is more qualified to help an archer through this period than the person who has been working with them all along?

I know I have been very up front with many of my highest-performing archers about the fact that I expect to see them passing along what they have learned from me, and from their own experiences. I have trained several as coaches, and use them as mentors for the newer and younger students when I can. Pulling aside an archer - when they are AT THEIR PEAK - is a great time to start talking to them about giving back to the sport and just asking them what they see in their archery future. If nothing else, just get the gears turning. I think that's only being fair to the archer. 

In a way, it's also being fair to the coach because no coach wants to see years of their hard work just disappear. A little nudge or suggestion may be all it takes.


----------



## ACFrost (Jul 26, 2015)

FWIW, I think you are probably on to something that's at least an important topic of conversation.

While I personally am too inexperienced to really contribute much to it methinks, i am glad I opened this thread.

I am too new to archery to even say I would be quitting anything if I stopped shooting, but if I can again draw a parallel I will say that I have thought about giving up training Brazilian jiu jisu before. One of the things that keeps me coming back is feeling like even if I may never be one of the greats, I can still in some small way perhaps contribute to the success of others.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

AC - 



> Why would I spend money, get up stupid early (for me) on a Saturday to drive an hour each way, for archery lessons of all things, just in the hopes that I'll do a little better than the last time? Why should I force myself to practice each day after work? Really, what the heck is the point o end goal? I honestly don't know. There's no glory, fame, no pot of gold or grand legacy waiting at the end of the road.


You just described what millions of people do every week(end) in any number of hobbies. You can be passionate about some thing and have no aspirations of "greatness" or recapturing former greatness. Sometimes the journey is more important than the end result and what we get out of it, isn't measured in medals. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Very true Tony. Very true.



> even if I may never be one of the greats, I can still in some small way perhaps contribute to the success of others.


So here's something I've found myself telling a few of my highest-performing archers over the years, as well as myself... Archery is a very small sport and we often find ourselves competing against the same people week in and week out. Usually, there is someone "just" below us in the scores/ranks who has been trying (whether they freely admit it or not) to beat us for a long time. For me personally, every time I compete it's an opportunity for someone to compete with and try to beat an Olympian and National Champion. So I believe we owe it to those who we have had the privilege to compete against - those who have made us BETTER because of the competition they provided us, to continue even after we're no longer capable of putting up the scores we once did, or even when we're not always prepared. Why? Because that person we've been beating the stuffings out of for years needs to finally have "their day." 

What is it we always tell our students? On any given day, you "can" beat that other archer. And it's true, unless of course that other archer just walks away cold turkey from the sport because they can't bring it at the same level they once did.

I am fully aware a lot of people don't share this view. Believe me. But it's something I think about and it's something I at least talk to my archers about. Plant the seed so to speak, so they are not only competitive, but generous to their fellow competitors and upcoming archers.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Good discussion here, lots of things to consider.

I've often thought about the retention rate of target archers who pass their peak, and wonder "whatever happened to...?". 

When I started shooting over 40 years ago, there was a prevalent attitude of "Archery is a lifetime sport" and the local mix was a wide range of ages. There was nothing in the way of formal coaching, especially for juniors. Adults learned on their own or got some basics from other archers, and kids were taught by their parents (who usually were not competent as coaches), and usually dropped out when they got to the age when they started thinking about girls and boys. Few made it to the adult ranks, and those that did tended to be the ones who got really good really fast. 

This was just about the time compounds were being picked up, and a few of the local pros were switching over from recurve for a number of reasons - the higher scores, the technology, and the novelty of it. But many adult shooters kept up with the recurve. There were those who just didn't have a clue and were always at the bottom of the results list, there were those who quickly rose to National/International level (like myself), and there were a few who worked hard and slowly improved to be competitive locally and even nationally. 

Every year a few would drop out and a few new people would come in. The total number seemed to remain pretty much the same year to year, though. But it was a small community and everyone knew everyone else. People seemed to stick with the sport for the social aspect. Everyone would stay after the shoot and have BBQs or go out for dinner in a bunch.

These days, they seem to pack up and go home as soon as possible after the last arrow is shot.

Things changed about 15-20 years ago, around the time people finally accepted that compounds were in fact "real" archery and it was acceptable to switch from recurve. A few took the opportunity to switch to compound. I did, and my reasons were simple. I liked archery, and I wanted to remain competitive but my body and my lifestyle didn't allow me to keep up the scores with recurve shooting.

Now here's where I can't come up with an explanation...of all the people in my local area that I shot with in recurve at or near the top level back in the '70s and '80s, I can't think of a single one who still shoots recurve, competitively or not. The last stubborn holdout passed away about 5 years ago, and only one or two others are still involved, as coaches. 

And even of those who made it to the top level in Canada (defining that as of being a member of a World Target Championships team) in recurve prior to 2000, there is only one other person that I know of who still shoots a recurve, and only two (including myself) who still shoot at all.

Chuck (cc46) is a rare exception. We used to be in the same club. If I remember correctly, he started as a junior in the '70's, got pretty good (but not great ), then dropped out for 25 years or so, coming back as an adult just a relatively few years ago, still shooting recurve. So, what brought you back?

Now, all of the above is my experience in my own local area, and I'm sure the archery culture in other parts of Canada and the US is different.

But this leads back to limbwalker's original premise - what role would a coach have in encouraging people to stay in the sport after their competitive days are over? 

How do other sports handle this?

Golf is the obvious comparison, and we have many examples of past-peak golfers still participating, but there are so many differences between archery and golf that explain this. The love of the game is #1, but there are handicap systems to equalize and feed the competitive edge. But the one main difference that I personally feel that sets golf aside from the other "accuracy" sports like archery or bowling or pool is the very real possibility and even likelihood of getting that one perfect, memorable shot that any golfer at any age or skill level can experience at any given moment. You may be a 28 handicap and shoot a 108, but that one chip-in to make birdie on the 17th is what you'll remember. That keeps golfers playing into their 90s, but you can't get that sort of thing in archery.

What other sports have a high after-peak retention rate? And how have coaches contributed to it?


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Ego vs. Humility*



limbwalker said:


> I'd love to hear some stories from club leaders and coaches about how they have helped their archers through this transition, from peak competitive ability to "shooting for the fun of shooting" as a recreational archer. I think it's a real art to be able to do this - to retain these archers "post-peak." I also think we all benefit when highly skilled and experienced competitive archers stay in the game. Whether they realize it or not, they have a LOT to contribute to the archers around them.


Transition? What transition (LOL)? You just shoot! At least that's what I do. In life we often just do the best we can with what we've got. I believe in giving your best effort and not worrying about the outcome. That by the way takes courage. That is what sport should teaches us. If you get into the outcome or expectations thing you've been hood winked (LOL). This hero/ego mentality is a losing proposition. 

Be in the moment......enjoy it and do the best you can with what you've got (play your position). That is what winners in life do (Rick and Ed).


-More Humility & Love Of Sport............ Less Ego!!!


-Focus On The Dot & Execute The Shot!
-R&B


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

R&B, you're absolutely right that it takes courage to continue to shoot when you can't bring your "A" game anymore. And the closer to the top you've been, I think the more courage it takes. Sadly, those who tend to drop out and are never seen again, often have the most to offer to their fellow archers. I think we as an archery community need to help them realize that.

As a lifelong archery enthusiast, it pains me to know so many outstanding archers about whom people often ask the "what ever happened to...?" question. Frankly, the higher they got in the sport, the more likely it is that we never hear from them again. And I don't believe it's because they don't love the sport. You have to love the sport to get to where they did. I think it's because they didn't really have a "post-peak" plan for their game. There needs to be something that keeps them involved, not just for their benefit but for the benefit of the archery community. 

Stash, your golf analogy is spot-on. I've seen my handicap go from a 15 to a 4 and back to a 15 in the past 15 years or so. But I'll go play because there will be that one perfect drive or long putt that goes in. It would be nice to have that in archery for sure. Good handicap systems like the ones you often see in indoor leagues, work well for this in archery. Years ago, we had an active indoor league in S. Illinois, and the flight I was in with my recurve was made up by all compound shooters - some fingers and some freestyle. That made it a lot of fun as we were all very closely matched.


----------



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks Stan for the kind words, all are accurate. 
You and I had been to Harrisburg in 76 and at that tournament I watched Darrell and Rick in awe, and I knew then just how far ahead they were, those memories are still in my head. I left archery in 1980, when in my 2nd year of university, I simply couldn't afford the time and had no extra money to continue. I focused on school instead. 

Fast forward to 2005, I came back. I recall watching the 2004 Olympic archery highlights, and it set a bug in me. And that year I rec'd a bonus from work. I paid credit cards to zero, took a vacation with my wife and 16 yo daughter and set aside $1000 for archery equipment. I joined AT and asked a lot of questions, and got started again. Had there not been a few extra dollars or had my career been too demanding, or my daughter had been younger I doubt I would have come back at that time. 

I think I'll always be an archer, but I may change how I participate, from time to time.


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Character Flaws*



limbwalker said:


> R&B, you're absolutely right that it takes courage to continue to shoot when you can't bring your "A" game anymore. And the closer to the top you've been, I think the more courage it takes. Sadly, those who tend to drop out and are never seen again, often have the most to offer to their fellow archers. I think we as an archery community need to help them realize that.
> 
> As a lifelong archery enthusiast, it pains me to know so many outstanding archers about whom people often ask the "what ever happened to...?" question. Frankly, the higher they got in the sport, the more likely it is that we never hear from them again. And I don't believe it's because they don't love the sport. You have to love the sport to get to where they did. I think it's because they didn't really have a "post-peak" plan for their game. There needs to be something that keeps them involved, not just for their benefit but for the benefit of the archery community.


For me bringing your A game is dynamic and not static. You perform to the best of what the conditions will allow. My A game represents my best effort! This doesn't always mean the best outcome or result. 

You need to look deep into the psychology of why people devote huge chunks of time and effort into things that potentially put attention and praise directly on them. Sometimes this psychology is an unhealthy neurosis. Not everyone has the same love or enjoyment in a sport no matter how successful they are. Their motivation aren't sustainable. Unless you're a trained Physiologist and willing to give up free sessions on your couch there isn't much you can do. I've shot with some great archers that no longer shoot due too some character flaws. I'm not worried about these people. I try to set an example. When I take on students I sometimes express my philosophy on why I shoot. The community is fine we have people like you and many others here on this forum who have the experience and knowledge to carry on the sport. The sport is a collective and the knowledge hasn't gone anywhere. It lives in all of us. Those who are interested just need to seek it out. 


Bless you John, Rick McKinney, Viper 1, Joe Tapely, DChan, Vittorio and the many many other that contribute and share your knowledge and continue to shoot. I hope to meet you all one day. In the mean time keep shooting............ the world is a better place because you do.



-Peace Be With You My Fellow Toxophilites!



-R&B


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Very kind of you R&B. Thanks.

This is an interesting idea...


> why people devote huge chunks of time and effort into things that potentially put attention and praise directly on them.


One that I have spent time thinking about. Trying to answer the questions "why do I do this?" "is this the best use of my time?" 

For me at least, my motives for learning to shoot Olympic recurve and competing in 2003/2004 were to learn more about it in order to contribute to the local JOAD program my own kids shot in. I wanted to help coach that program, and I knew so little about Olympic recurve and target archery in general, that I figured I'd better invest some time as a competitor so I could pass along some real-world experience. I don't believe in teaching something I've not done personally. That's just how I'm wired. I wanted to be a credible coach. Anyway, I don't attend nearly as many events as I could, because my primary focus has always been my students and what can I do to learn more to help them. 

It is my hope that we as coaches include in the development of our students not only great technique and passion for the sport, but also a sense of responsibility to give back to the sport in whatever way they can. It saddens me when so many of our elite archers, who have so very much to offer, step away and are never seen again. These are people who others have invested SO much time in. I sometimes wonder how they can not feel obligated to return that investment.


----------



## arc2x4 (Jun 4, 2007)

The Boy Scouts are always looking for folks who can get a basic archery instruction certification and then come 
out for a week or two every summer and run the archery range or help at Boy Scout camp. You can become an archery merit 
badge counselor and take kids to the archery range who never would have had a chance otherwise.
I am an NRA certified Shotgun instructor and I help out at camp and at our club on Boy Scout weekends that we run.
I also help out with the Boy Scouts on the club archery range as needed. Not Competition but a way to stay involved and give some kids
a chance to do something new.


----------



## Darryl Longbow (Apr 11, 2003)

I have shot the bow for sixty years now, I love it just as much as I did at my peak of tournament shooting. Now that peak was not much by most standards, a few state and regional championships, college all American< nominated twice. Tied hard to make the 72 Olympic team but did not come close. Same in 76. Changed to the compound due to a hand injury and stayed with that for 20 years. Shot fairly well as a NFAA pro and did hundreds of demonstrations for school groups for Bear Archery. About 1990 I realized time was taking its tole as far as competition went and switched back to how I started, what we now call traditional. Won a lot of local shoots and did pretty well at some of the IBO and ASA shoots. Now well past my physical prime I am content to shoot hunting style short recurves instinctively. could care less about winning anymore. It is hard to not shoot up to the level I once was capable of when I let my ego get in the way.Droping the ego and enjoying the sport for the pure love of shooting arrows is where I have finally arrived. My point is this , John is absolutely right to encourage his archers and others to consider the future, and there is a future if you love the sport enough. Time creeps up on you weather you want it to or not and not being what we once were will eventually become a fact. If you can drop the ego of what was for what is you will stay in the sport if you want to, its all a matter of perspective and if you can keep that clear you will find archery a life time endeavor. Thank you John for bringing up something that is much deeper than it first seems and needs to be considered. John the next time you see Rick Stonebreaker or Don Rabska ask the if they remember how hot it was at the 1973 college nationals at Stetson University in Florida.We may be the last of that group that still shoot.


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Very kind of you R&B. Thanks.
> 
> This is an interesting idea...
> 
> One that I have spent time thinking about. Trying to answer the questions "why do I do this?" "is this the best use of my time?"


Your are most welcome.

No need to question this. For you and many others this drive is a benefit to those around you and the society as a whole. We humans have behaviors that are neurotic but many of them have positive influences on the world at large. Immortality striving is O.K. if other benefit from it. 



> For me at least, my motives for learning to shoot Olympic recurve and competing in 2003/2004 were to learn more about it in order to contribute to the local JOAD program my own kids shot in. I wanted to help coach that program, and I knew so little about Olympic recurve and target archery in general, that I figured I'd better invest some time as a competitor so I could pass along some real-world experience. I don't believe in teaching something I've not done personally. That's just how I'm wired. I wanted to be a credible coach. Anyway, I don't attend nearly as many events as I could, because my primary focus has always been my students and what can I do to learn more to help them.


You are a person of intelligence and integrity. You treat others as you would like to be treated. So out of respect for others you felt it best to give your best effort (your A game) to learn about something you knew little about. I've done the same thing but for different reasons. The end result is we both have valuable real world knowledge from getting our grind on/putting in our time (smile). We are willing to share our experience with those who need and want help and are willing to listen. Many of us here on this forum have what no certification can give..... Real world experience/practical knowledge gained through hard work and perseverance.



> It is my hope that we as coaches include in the development of our students not only great technique and passion for the sport, but also a sense of responsibility to give back to the sport in whatever way they can. It saddens me when so many of our elite archers, who have so very much to offer, step away and are never seen again. These are people who others have invested SO much time in. I sometimes wonder how they can not feel obligated to return that investment.


This is a personal choice. I don't feel my student have an obligation to anyone but themselves. I have a letter written to me by one of my students. I gave him lessons when he first started out. He went on to college and blossomed into a fantastic archer! I'm most proud of him because he is a beautiful human being. Our short time together has sparked his continued interest and the sport. He coaches at the collegiate level while pursuing his Masters degree. I had no idea I had anything to do with this spark. He wants to influence others as I have influenced him to want to coach. This was never my intention. I wouldn't have known this if it weren't for the touching letter he wrote me. Non the less I'm so very proud of of him all my students. I'm privileged to have to have been a part of their lives in some small way. I'm so very proud of all of them even if they don't shoot anymore. It is all about the experience and if you're are blessed you can influence someone with no intention other than they enjoy shooting their bow. 

I'm always a student of the game. When ever I see an archery with impeccable technique it is beautiful and it always inspires me. Scott McKechnie, Ezra Wheeler, Sagar Mistry, Paul Williams, Pete Karney, Michael Mills, Richard Freitas, Illaro Di Buo, Hong Sung Chil, Jae Hun Chung and countless others I don't have the space, memory or time to list have had a had a profound effect on me. Their legacy lives on through me. I'm so blessed to have been able to witness and interact with so many great archers/human beings.

It all about the experience for me. Experience is transcendent (nothing to do with time or outcomes). 



-Cheers
-R&B


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess I take it one step further. I often tell my students to look around at all the people who have helped them. Yes it is a personal choice, but if a student of mine chooses to walk away without giving anything back to anyone but themselves, I see that as lack of character or maturity. 



> Scott McKechnie, Ezra Wheeler, Sagar Mistry, Paul Williams, Pete Karney,


Wow, now there's a list! Most archers today wouldn't even know who these people are, much less how talented they are.


----------



## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

This has been a fascinating discussion and I am enjoying it immensely.

I am coming at archery from a completely different perspective: at age 52, having never picked up a bow of any type before, I tried Olympic recurve archery for the first time just 6 months ago. I was instantly hooked. I'm firmly in Viper's group of 97.5% recreational shooters, but with tendencies towards the 2% delusional.

I'm lucky enough to be able to train with two former National Team archers (one recurve, one compound) while working here in the Philippines on temporary assignment for my employer. I've joked with both of them that it's too late for 2016, so they've got another 4 years to get me ready for Tokyo. But realistically, I'm very interested in seeing what I can accomplish, accepting the fact that I've started 30+ (maybe 40+) years too late to be able to reach the highest levels of the sport. 

For me, it might be a positive thing that I'm starting this past my peak. I suspect that it's going to be a long time before I have to stop believing that I can still get better.


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I guess I take it one step further. I often tell my students to look around at all the people who have helped them. Yes it is a personal choice, but if a student of mine chooses to walk away without giving anything back to anyone but themselves, I see that as lack of character or maturity.


This is where we differ. We should contribute out of love not obligation. 



> Wow, now there's a list! Most archers today wouldn't even know who these people are, much less how talented they are.


I have a special bond with Paul, Pete and Ezra. We shared hotels rooms, meals, the insanity of chasing USAT points, deep philosophical conversations and the love of flying arrows. They no longer shoot tournaments which saddens me. My goodness there are so many others than have moved on. That's O.K. ........ I'm still here living the dream (LOL)

-R&B


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

In Italy, we have already reached the situation were >50 male archers are more than >18 & <50 male archers. It means that we already have more Master Men than Senior men registerd to the Italiam WA Federation. Many newcomers are in the 55 to 65 age range, and this is clearly giving new challenges to basic instructors and coaches. Managing their start and development has nothing to do with doing the same with young men or children. For sure, machplay and Olympic round formats are totally out of their needs and expectations, shooting at 70 mt is not considered at all and only objectives for them are personal satisfaction and fun. They usually start with Olympic recurve as this is what is teached them, then sometime they switch to Bare Bow. Compound is never an option for them as too far from the image they have of archery, as well as too much expensive end heavy to handle. of course, different countries, different realities, but for sure the future of archery does not seem to lay in young generations ...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

R&B said:


> This is where we differ. We should contribute out of love not obligation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is sad that they are no longer shooting. All great examples of those who have so much experience to pass along...

And yes, you hope it is out of love that someone wants to pay back to the sport, but in the absence of that, I will be sure they understand the obligation. Because it simply isn't a good way to live to take the efforts of others for granted and not give back in return.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> It is sad that they are no longer shooting. All great examples of those who have so much experience to pass along...
> 
> And yes, you hope it is out of love that someone wants to pay back to the sport, but in the absence of that, I will be sure they understand the obligation. Because it simply isn't a good way to live to take the efforts of others for granted and not give back in return.


Young men and women have dreams and careers to pursue. It took me over 20 years to be in a position to give back. Perspective and introspection come in time.


----------



## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

One thing that makes it hard to continue for some is draw weight : 
If you age and train less you NEED to change limbs for lower weight....
Some don't accept it I call it Ulysses' bow complex


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Young men and women have dreams and careers to pursue. It took me over 20 years to be in a position to give back. Perspective and introspection come in time.


I can understand that. For me personally, I enjoy teaching archery and passing along what I have learned. And I do feel a sense of obligation because of all those who took the time to teach me when I was young, to pass that effort along. As for dreams and careers to pursue, I was teaching archery to kids in scouts before I turned 30, helped with or have led a JOAD program since I was 32, and competed at my peak with three young kids in the house. Everyone has the same number of hours in the day, and really it's all about priorities. But again, planting the seed never hurts. Archers listen to their coaches and archery mentors. And if they can't give back right away, maybe they can a little later when they do gain perspective. Those words from their coach will stay with them. Believe me.

Crushed, this is one reason I specifically mentioned recurve - because of the three, the window for one's peak is the smallest with that discipline.


----------



## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

limbwalker;
So here's something I've found myself telling a few of my highest-performing archers over the years said:


> I don't think you could have said that any better. I would target archers to beat, and winning an event because they were a no show would take away from the win.


----------



## tbrash01 (Oct 7, 2010)

As many know I have had a very successful past in archery 30 years ago, a lot like shooterphil. Welcome back btw shooterphil! 

I stopped shooting due to injury on several occasions and always had the drive to be great again. Archery has been a major part in my life for 30+ years and it's in my DNA. I struggled heavily this past year with my back issues, damaged shoulder, and created a new injury... mental disappointment. 

I had to take a huge step back and look at my reality. I have physical issues, a family, a job, and I'm not getting younger. While I feel I embarrassed myself last September in TX, also had a major equipment issue, I finally learned something valuable. While I still strive to be recognized again as a once great archer, I now know it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about how I shoot today. What matters is that I know, and many others whom were teammates with me like Vic, Huish, Rick, Ed, Jay, Pfister, Holmes etc... that I could shoot lights out, even if it was for a short while. And today I can still do it... when I really try. I keep shooting today for fun because the lesson I learned wasn't about my own victories or records, but that I have 30+ years in archery. 3 decades of knowledge and experience that I can now give back. Young or old, new to the sport or not, I bring a wealth of knowledge and am finally coaching to watch them grow. I remind students daily that archery isn't for everyone, but once it gets a hold of your soul there is always a future in the sport. More importantly, there is always a family they belong to. 

I've made mistakes and while I will one day reprove my abilities, but I will forever share what I kniw to anyone. Ya everyone after shooting a few years becomes an expert, always forgets one key thing... this is the most rewarding sport ever and together we share a common bond. 

One piece of advise. Archery is a sport. Oly recurve is a discipline just as is compound or barebow. When you find yourself unable to compete at a high level, remember why it is you shoot in the first place. For me, there is nothing better than working hard at it and seeing results on or off the tournament field... and watching others that you've helped succeed to live their dreams. Inspire those around you by being passionate about archery and keep shooting good or bad to prove archers never quit. Ever.


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

tbrash01 said:


> One piece of advise. Archery is a sport. Oly recurve is a discipline just as is compound or barebow. When you find yourself unable to compete at a high level, remember why it is you shoot in the first place. For me, there is nothing better than working hard at it and seeing results on or off the tournament field... and watching others that you've helped succeed to live their dreams. Inspire those around you by being passionate about archery and keep shooting good or bad to prove archers never quit. Ever.


This is the gift sport offers us all. It is about humility and giving your best effort.............. You are a Champion! Champions when down always get up and give their best effort win lose or draw. 


-R&B


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Time*



limbwalker said:


> It is sad that they are no longer shooting. All great examples of those who have so much experience to pass along...
> 
> And yes, you hope it is out of love that someone wants to pay back to the sport, but in the absence of that, I will be sure they understand the obligation. Because it simply isn't a good way to live to take the efforts of others for granted and not give back in return.


There is still time. Yesterday there was a Facebook post by Tyler Benner. Tyler states in his post that he hasn't shot his bow in years. The funny thing is Sagar replied to the post.

I don't want to go into my Olympic Games and archery rant but there are so many great archers who gave up on the sport because they weren't able to attend 1 single event. I shot at the Olympic Trials in 2007/08 with Sagar and he let us know he was done. He didn't make the cut. I can still remember how sad I was hearing him say this. I just didn't understand it. I still don't. Paul, Pete, Ezra, Scott pretty much gave up on the Olympic Dream and therefore archery. I personally didn't and don't care about my shooting and the Olympics. I've been shooting my for 26 years with no real break. I don't shoot as many tournaments because of finances and time, however I'm always training and still shoot everyday because I love shooting my bow. 


-Cheers
-R&B


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Great discussion.

I can fully understand John's attitude towards giving back. However, that is not normal. Most people are in anything for enjoyment. Most enjoy when they start shooting good, then progress to get better. Then they become hooked until they can go no further or their attention leans towards something else. Archery can be very rewarding in so many ways. But it does not fit any particular mold for everyone. I can show on one hand +one the guys who had the selfish drive and attitude it took to become a champion during my time period: Darrell, Jay, Vic, Butch, Ed and myself. I watched many others while they progressed to a certain point and then drifted off to other directions in life. They chose that direction, just like we chose our direction. The passion, determination and the selfish approach is the only way to get to the top. When I used to give seminars, I talked about what it takes to be a champion. It was like an onion. Each layer was a part of your life and it's priorities. Things like work, play, friends, education, and many other items were the layers. The center core had to be archery or you would not get to the top. I don't mean just making a team or even finishing 3rd, but winning at the highest level. It is a dedicated drive that not many can understand nor appreciate. These guys put archery before relationships. They used coaches like most use rags to clean cars. They always thought of themselves first and foremost on how to get better. It was an obsession that could be considered a neurotic illness. These guys lost more events than you can count, but they never thought of it as a loss but as a stepping stone to get better. Each loss made them better, while many gave up, they continued on their drive to be the best. Even with these 6 guys, only 3 became either Olympic or World Champion, the highest pinnacle an archer can reach within the recurve freestyle division. The others came close (Vic-Silver, Butch-Gold team, Ed-5th at the '72 Games). The passion these guys have is something. Just for a disclaimer, I cannot mention Brady since I really do not know him well. He appears to have the drive, but I am not around him enough to see what makes him tick. No offense, just not enough info for my comment on this subject. 

Now, having said all of that, can you imagine them giving back? Their first and foremost importance is themselves to be the best. How can you change that around? How in the world can you expect them to continue shooting when they cannot improve or having accomplished so much? I can tell you that winning your first title (World or Olympic) is the easiest. The next one gets harder and a third is nearly impossible. Looking forward is always much easier than looking backward. These guys have been selfish most of their time in archery in order to get where they were going. Another thing about giving is that they gave all those years. Yes, while competing, they were giving. How many sports allows a newbie to shoot (compete) right along a champion? We have no bodyguards nor anything to keep any one from coming up and talking with us. Most have always been open and while maybe not fully understanding what they were saying, they were honest to the point of telling them what they knew. Most still do. Ed is teaching archery with kids and I think a University, plus he helps manage the Huntsman Games for archery. Darrell is wrapped up in his local club and is always there at Target Nationals helping with the field. Vic is still competing and coaching. Butch is competing and I think coaching and still working at an archery shop? Not sure what Jay does other than a little coaching with the Canadians and shooting Vegas every year. 

Someone said it best about ego. It is very hard to overcome. Most do not. Even I still struggle at times with how I shoot and how I used to shoot. However, keeping in my mind that I love to shoot that one good shot has helped and not shooting is the worst I can experience. Thus bad shooting is better than not shooting at all. 

Now, for those who have wandered off while getting close but deciding to chase another dream. Good for them! Expecting them to give back is a bit selfish for those who expect that. There is no written rule that you have to give. You should want to give, but only if you want to. You gave your heart and soul to becoming the best and did not quite get there. At least you gave your best for that time period and now you have moved on. Maybe you will be back and then maybe you won't. Either way, I wish you all the best in whatever you choose in life. Archery is not a big money earner, thus I don't have any disappointment on those who move on. I do relish to see those who have that spark and want to be a part of the game. 

I cannot understand those who give so much and get so little in return other than satisfaction. Those coaches, judges, volunteers, leaders and supporters. These are the real unsung heroes. I hope you all understand that my opinion is just one opinion. I love this sport and you probably can see that I am obsessed with it. I love watching the kids get that spark of excitement and even love shooting with the old farts like Glenn, Gabe, Larry, Gary and Tom! We don't always put them in the middle but we still enjoy each others competitive spirit and camaraderie. However, that is not what the kids who are working up the ladder are thinking. They want to get better and win! Let them. It is a wonderful experience and it helps their future when thinking about work, education or anything else they choose in life. Archery helps with self drive, positive attitude, time management, and many other things that are good for you. Thus, if you choose to move on, do so with knowing that you have learned so many lessons for your future.


----------



## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Rick, well said plus getting to watch you shoot is a great treat. I've never seen anyone get in line with the arrow quite like you do.


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Yesterday, I drove 2 hrs each way to meet with John.. Limbwalker...for help with form and a sore shoulder. I shot 9 arrows only. Yes, he saw a form flaw pretty quick that ought to fix a number of things. Even said my release was " close enough". 
More valuable was our discussion . I am 67 and came to Oly. recurve about age 61. My best score has been 286 indoors, best win was state shooting down with the 50 year olds and biggest "giggles" was taking 3 points battling Jeremish Cusick at the 2014 Texas Shootout. 

I told John I think I can stay competitive for at least ten more years. He told me my dream of 290 is going to take lots of arrows and mental management. Mainly we spoke of the attitude toward competition and archery...it's a game that we decide is important. Of being humble and helping others, of not letting one's ego ruin the enjoyment of archery, of congratulating the fellow who beat me at state this year but wanting a rematch, even as John admonished me to focus on giving each arrow my best effort and not focus on score (as in Terry Wunderle's book). Despite being at least ten years John's senior and a psychologist, he is one of my archery mentors along with Vic Wunderle and Lannie Whiteford. John and many others give to all of us. Tomorrow I go to Fort Sam Houston to volunteer with the wounded warriors archers there...to try and give what I know and to receive from them what they know. Archery is a minor part of what each of us souls can give to another. Go and give. We were not born to only think of ourselves.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

on another level it's much like aging golfers who had reached a relatively high level during their younger days but still continue to play onwards inspite of all the aches and pains they are suffering nowadays....

in my case inspite of a career low handicap of 3 going up to 16 after 58 years in the game i continue to play golf due to my love for the game and for the camaraderie and exercise i get from it nowadays...

my ego and hopes have taken a back seat to just being happy for my ocassional "flashes of brilliance" which at least makes me smile for the memory at how good i used to be...

i have a similar approach to my archery now...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Brilliant insight as usual Rick. You are 100% correct on the elite having to be selfish. It is something that not many understand, or are prepared or willing to do. And I get that. It takes tremendous drive and yes, selfishness, to be able to compete at the most elite level. I saw this first hand. I have also seen first hand that mindset work against some of those elite archers who may have wanted to give back, but frankly didn't know how or what that would look like because they hadn't developed that skill along the way.



> there are so many great archers who gave up on the sport because they weren't able to attend 1 single event.


THIS. I could not have said it better.

This is the kind of perspective we need to be promoting in Olympic recurve. Why? Because 99.999% of all who pick up the Olympic bow, will never use it for the event that it's named for. I am very up front about this with my archers who choose that discipline, and we talk regularly about what they are going to do post-peak (because Olympic recurve archers crash harder than compound or barebow archers when they reduce their training). What are they going to do with the knowledge they have gained and the competitive experience they have earned? 

The students I've had that I am the most proud of are not just great competitors, but they are great promoters of the sport of archery, in all it's forms.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, and RB, if you come across Sagar Mistry someday, please tell him I said hello and please tell him that I would love to see him back in the sport. He is one that I remember very well from my earliest days of competition, and I will never forget the encouragement and inspiration he gave me during the 2004 trials.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

It's interesting about giving back. I recall having a discussion with Earl Hoyt and I was so concerned that his knowledge would die with him. I tried so hard to get him to write about his experiences. Unfortunately, he wrote one small piece which I still have today. Although he left a legacy that still resonates in the recurve design, he had so much more to offer. He just did not like to write down what he knew. I know it is not easy. Heck, I had to take 3 college classes to learn to write and I still struggle with it. However, I have had a passion to give as much knowledge as I can. Unfortunately, work and other issues keeps me from writing more.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

BTW as a 70 year old i find the 20M indoor round with a single face and the FITA 900 still very enjoyable to shoot...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> It's interesting about giving back. I recall having a discussion with Earl Hoyt and I was so concerned that his knowledge would die with him. I tried so hard to get him to write about his experiences. Unfortunately, he wrote one small piece which I still have today. Although he left a legacy that still resonates in the recurve design, he had so much more to offer. He just did not like to write down what he knew. I know it is not easy. Heck, I had to take 3 college classes to learn to write and I still struggle with it. However, I have had a passion to give as much knowledge as I can. Unfortunately, work and other issues keeps me from writing more.


Rick, as far as I'm concerned, your book "The Simple Art of Winning" is still the greatest reference and first place I send archers who wish to learn Olympic recurve and I will forever be grateful that you took the time to get it to press. It was a well-used copy of that book, loaned to me by none other than Ed Eliason's cousin Bob Gordon, that served as my first "coach."

We all have been given various gifts to share with others. Blessed is the person who finds theirs, and chooses to use it.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

jmvargas said:


> BTW as a 70 year old i find the 20M indoor round with a single face and the FITA 900 still very enjoyable to shoot...


oops!.....i meant the 18M indoor fita round..


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Sagar Mistry*



limbwalker said:


> Oh, and RB, if you come across Sagar Mistry someday, please tell him I said hello and please tell him that I would love to see him back in the sport. He is one that I remember very well from my earliest days of competition, and I will never forget the encouragement and inspiration he gave me during the 2004 trials.


Sagar has a good soul. He was/is good for the sport. I don't know Sagar well. He was just one of the many great archers I shot with and have not forgotten about. Sagar, I think, is on the East Coast and I'm here on the West Coast so the likely hood of seeing each other is not very high. If I ever run into him I'll be sure to let him know you haven't forgotten him and appreciated his positive energy and support. 


-R&B


----------



## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Late to the party on this, but can offer an opinion from a late 30's (almost 38), competitive male. I have played golf for over 30 years, became a golf Pro and have left the industry, it wears on you and takes away the enjoyment of what was once a passion (which I've seen in others in golf and other sports, so can see top archers becoming the same way). My wife and I took a Beginner class in the Spring and I became infatuated with it. Simple 6 lessons, 1 1/2 hours long each Saturday morning, and I was hooked. She will follow suit to make me happy, but not to the level of anything more then a basic trainer recurve.

Archery is a very foreign thing as mentioned by others, its not reactionary and almost completely static. This doesn't lead to too much excitement, but you will never convince those people otherwise. But those who have a competitive edge in them will see what the sport has to offer, to be able to compete against yourself and others. Just getting a rig into peoples hands opens their eyes to something they might not even think about, obviously archery isn't a mainstream sport that beats you over the head with advertising (unless you go looking for it). 

Oddly enough, one of the good things I can see that is bringing attention to the sport is the 'dodgeball' like companies that are starting to come out and are great for corporate/team building outings (wife will be bringing her team of 35 employees out). This is a great entry to just getting a bow into many peoples hands and exposes them to it, much along the lines of going to a driving range for golf, a first introduction that isn't formal and more for exploratory/fun means. 

Avid golfers are well aware of how lonely its game is and how mentally strong you have to be to play to a good level. My coach says that understanding the prep work/time needed in golf to play well should lend well transitioning into archery. I would have been more into it this summer had I not spent a pile of money on a golf membership, but very much looking forward to buying all the pieces in the coming months for my first rig.


----------



## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Welcome to the joy of archery


----------



## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

Gwelfgulfer said:


> Late to the party on this, but can offer an opinion from a late 30's (almost 38), competitive male. I have played golf for over 30 years, became a golf Pro and have left the industry, it wears on you and takes away the enjoyment of what was once a passion (which I've seen in others in golf and other sports, so can see top archers becoming the same way). My wife and I took a Beginner class in the Spring and I became infatuated with it. Simple 6 lessons, 1 1/2 hours long each Saturday morning, and I was hooked. She will follow suit to make me happy, but not to the level of anything more then a basic trainer recurve.
> 
> Archery is a very foreign thing as mentioned by others, its not reactionary and almost completely static. This doesn't lead to too much excitement, but you will never convince those people otherwise. But those who have a competitive edge in them will see what the sport has to offer, to be able to compete against yourself and others. Just getting a rig into peoples hands opens their eyes to something they might not even think about, obviously archery isn't a mainstream sport that beats you over the head with advertising (unless you go looking for it).
> 
> ...


Very well stated and I couldn't agree more. I used to be an avid golfer and worked hard to get to 5 handicap and loved the challenge of pushing myself and what it takes to maintain the mental toughness to be competitive even on a local level. People say that archery is an expensive sport, clearly have never played golf haha. There are so many things that carry over from (good) golf to (good) archery IMO, trying to make that perfect shot over and over and over again, maintaining that focus and controlling your emotions throughout a round. Sound familiar? Welcome to the sport.


----------



## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

kevwill said:


> This has been a fascinating discussion and I am enjoying it immensely.
> 
> I am coming at archery from a completely different perspective: at age 52, having never picked up a bow of any type before, I tried Olympic recurve archery for the first time just 6 months ago. I was instantly hooked. I'm firmly in Viper's group of 97.5% recreational shooters, but with tendencies towards the 2% delusional.
> 
> ...


Congrats, I have been shooting for 3 years and love it, I am now 57.


----------

