# Rcherz scoring at Nationals



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, first time I've used this system. Took me a while to figure out the tablet (give me a break, I went to college before the internet) but it was pretty intuitive.
> 
> Just got my scorecards (ranking and matchplay) emailed to me. Now that's pretty cool.
> 
> ...


my son who has used the wired system in the past said the current system is much easier to us and our tech guy on the 25/30 field named ALVIN was competent, diligent, and patient. He did a lot to make that field run better and I noted that in my ACOJ report I am writing for the TD and the COJ


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I thought RcherZ was excellent. I have one piece of constructive criticism. There should be a page back button on the interface, versus using the back button on the tablet. I fat fingered the wrong line and it took the software developer next to me a couple of moments to figure out what to do. However, the system is certainly an upgrade from the wired system.


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Not a fan of "Xs are Xs only and 10s are 10s only" though.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Arsi said:


> Not a fan of "Xs are Xs only and 10s are 10s only" though.


It created a bit of a quandary about the X is a 10 on the paper scorecard. Of course an X is a 10 but it did present initial confusion


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

The weird part was that the handhelds were calling Xs as 10s as they should so I don't see why we had to change the paper cards.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I liked the handhelds and i liked that you get emailed the scorecards. I hate the web part of it. Trying to find target assignments, trying to see if i made the cut, trying to find the brackets or final standings. Hard to find, slow to load and much worse than using Ianseo. Also finding the page on usaarchery was difficult. Kept going to teamusa.irg and only showing one news page. Going back a page showed other sports webpage.

Archers were having to photo that long web address for scoring just to find it. Link on USArchery for nationals took you to the registration page, not tournament info and scores.

I had other archers also tell me they couldnt find their brackets for eliminations while we sat in the car waiting the rain delay. 

Having to select each male, compound, age, division etc.... Sometimes it would just load something not what i wanted and then i had to start over. Also the moving list was annoying. I wanted to shut that off. I would get to what i wanted to see and it kept moving up. Fail on the webpart.

I prefer Ianseo with seperate links for the info i need.




Chris


----------



## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Agree with Chris on just about everything. You have to select static to get the scrolling to stop.


----------



## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

chrstphr said:


> trying to see if i made the cut, trying to find the brackets or final standings. Hard to find, slow to load and much worse than using Ianseo.
> I prefer Ianseo with seperate links for the info i need.
> Chris


Same here, Try to find pdf with the results that you can print, or brackets that you can follow an archer from beginning of eliminations to the finals. Nope, you have to search the name on separate pages. On few occasions webpage was shown in Slovak language for no reason LOL. Total fail in my mind on web part. I also tried to setup tournament for our club. With Ianseo it is a snap. With Rcherz I found out that I am not that smart:embara:


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Same here. 
For the young archers as a data entry device the tablets are great. It's their type of technology! For the parent/spectator and archers looking for scores, placement, or even target assignments it's too slow, complicated, convoluted, and confusing. It worked differently on Android vs. Iphone. The app was different than the web page. Many users couldn't get it to scroll, many couldn't get it to automatically update and it seemed that everyone had to press far too many "buttons" in an effort to update the information manually. Although the Ianseo system provides far less data, it is by far my preferred system for tournament use.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Am I the only person that never looked anything up on their phone the whole week?


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i looked at my phone and my iPad. Most of the archers that i talked with having trouble finding info also were looking at their phone. On Elimination day, i had a female compound archer who couldn't find any info on her shooting. I was able to find it after 10 minutes and give her the info on her first two matches and target assignment. I am sure she was not the only one. 


Chris


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The Rcherz software (at least the Android/iOS versions) are a bit behind versus Ianseo.

One of the biggest issues is the lack of target progression shown in the software during OR's. Paper versions will show the target progression, so archers are able to move from target to target, but we're not able to see the progression on the mobile software.


----------



## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Am I the only person that never looked anything up on their phone the whole week?


No. Rick Stonebraker didn't see his texts. But he doesn't use Facebook either, soooo...

However, there's a theme here. The two top scoring barebow archers were not using technology outside of scoring at the bale. 

I know what I'll be doing next year.


----------



## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the app. I have Android and consider myself to be fairly tech savvy. Must be getting old. Bah.


----------



## Scipiotik (Apr 11, 2012)

The android app is terrible. Crashed constantly until I was compelled to uninstall it. A shame really because the idea is great and doing live scoring for even club level tournaments would be an interesting wrinkle.


----------



## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Is there a difference in reliability between the app and scoring system alone? We've used it here for simultaneous cross-country and trans-Atlantic tournaments without any real problems I could see.


----------



## unitminer (Jun 19, 2010)

As rcherz.com has all information about the archer, maybe it would be possible to send email with target assignment (the part of this feature is already implemented and we did few tests already).

However, we don't want to send email to archers, which was not approved by USArchery. After each tournament we can add more and more features like this.

I would like to thank to all archers in this thread to point out the problem with finding the target assignment - We will suggest some improvements for next tournaments.


----------



## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

Scipiotik said:


> The android app is terrible. Crashed constantly until I was compelled to uninstall it. A shame really because the idea is great and doing live scoring for even club level tournaments would be an interesting wrinkle.


Yes I tried, we are relatively large club, but not everyone is participating in the tournaments. We are all volunteers here and very proud of our tournament fees which are still $6 per youth and no one really remembers how long ago it was set. Also for that reason we are not planning to raise them. With the tournament averaging 30 participants we are going to earn $180 where $100 will go to Rcherz for using their software and $80 to us to maintain equipment, buying target faces etc. I doubt that board of directors will approve those fees. They will tell me to use paper scoring not the software. In this case and for that reason I am leaning towards Ianseo open source software.
There is another issue from organizer point of view no one really noticed. The data. Right now it resides on the server which belongs to Rcherz. And I believe it belongs to them not to organizers (USAA). I might be wrong here, but even in the event if organizers get the copy of database, they can't still use it without placing it in the proper space and using proper software which they don't have. With Ianseo, data belongs to you, the user, you have the software at hand to get to the data, and actually you can do with it whatever you are pleased. Heck, you can even modify it to your own liking as you have the source code. Ianseo Italian server, carry only results, not individual data of the athletes, athletes data is on our own computer, which belongs to us not some foreign company.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Georgemay said:


> Yes I tried, we are relatively large club, but not everyone is participating in the tournaments. We are all volunteers here and very proud of our tournament fees which are still $6 per youth and no one really remembers how long ago it was set. Also for that reason we are not planning to raise them. With the tournament averaging 30 participants we are going to earn $180 where $100 will go to Rcherz for using their software and $80 to us to maintain equipment, buying target faces etc. I doubt that board of directors will approve those fees. They will tell me to use paper scoring not the software. In this case and for that reason I am leaning towards Ianseo open source software.
> There is another issue from organizer point of view no one really noticed. The data. Right now it resides on the server which belongs to Rcherz. And I believe it belongs to them not to organizers (USAA). I might be wrong here, but even in the event if organizers get the copy of database, they can't still use it without placing it in the proper space and using proper software which they don't have. With Ianseo, data belongs to you, the user, you have the software at hand to get to the data, and actually you can do with it whatever you are pleased. Heck, you can even modify it to your own liking as you have the source code. Ianseo Italian server, carry only results, not individual data of the athletes, athletes data is on our own computer, which belongs to us not some foreign company.


Putting my USA Archery Tournament Information Technology hat on here...

USA Archery receives a crapton of data from Rcherz at the end of a tournament. It's a combination of CSV/Excel, PDF, and raw data.

So, USA Archery does have the data in a location that they control as well as on the Rcherz servers.

-Steve


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Scipiotik said:


> The android app is terrible. Crashed constantly until I was compelled to uninstall it. A shame really because the idea is great and doing live scoring for even club level tournaments would be an interesting wrinkle.





Cephas said:


> Is there a difference in reliability between the app and scoring system alone? We've used it here for simultaneous cross-country and trans-Atlantic tournaments without any real problems I could see.



On the Android side of the world, there are two actual Rcherz apps.

There is an actual scoring only application that is used in the handhelds/tablets. All it does is it receives pushes from the server, programs in the assigned archers, and sends score data to the server. USA Archery side loads that application directly to the handheld/tablet, and does not use the Google Play store for that software.

The other application is the generic application that is the all-in-one app. That one you get from the Google Play store.

-Steve


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

*Many challenges*



Beastmaster said:


> One of the biggest issues is the lack of target progression shown in the software during OR's. Paper versions will show the target progression, so archers are able to move from target to target, but we're not able to see the progression on the mobile software.


This seems to be the least of the troubles with Rcherz. Updating scores was so slow and painful that target progression was a distant thought. It seems to me that the system is just not ready for prime time. There are always going to be people who are technology challenged and have difficulties with this kind of product. Unfortunately, even the technology savvy people had many, many problems with this. Even the main tournament selection page was confusing. My iphone showed three or four buttons for "US National Archery Tournament" (that might not be exactly what it said but you all get the point). As it turned out, one entry was Clout, one was the regular Tournament, one was the ORs and I forget what the other was. It would have been OK if the screen setup (frame size) was done correctly for each type of phone. All I saw was three or four entries that were identical in every way.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Do you mind if we break this down a bit? I'd love to get more info...

-Steve




Casualfoto said:


> This seems to be the least of the troubles with Rcherz. Updating scores was so slow and painful that target progression was a distant thought.


To clarify, you're talking about you as an archer entering in scores at the bale? Can you tell me which field you were on? And are you referring to ranking round or elimination round score updates?



> It seems to me that the system is just not ready for prime time. There are always going to be people who are technology challenged and have difficulties with this kind of product. Unfortunately, even the technology savvy people had many, many problems with this.


There is some overhead that needs to be cleaned up. However, on the back end Rcherz will update almost as fast as Ianseo. 

Unfortunately, for my Tuesday conference call, I need specifics. If you're able to provide me specifics, I can give them to the developers.



> Even the main tournament selection page was confusing. My iphone showed three or four buttons for "US National Archery Tournament" (that might not be exactly what it said but you all get the point). As it turned out, one entry was Clout, one was the regular Tournament, one was the ORs and I forget what the other was. It would have been OK if the screen setup (frame size) was done correctly for each type of phone. All I saw was three or four entries that were identical in every way.


Yes, and that even confuses the scoring team. It's a different way of thinking and processing by the developers. There are days where I will see (on the administration side) 4-5 duplicate tournaments that are identical in every way except for some trailing tag of some sort. 

One minor nag that I have is how Para and Collegiate is split off to its own tournament even though all it needs to be is put into its own session. Again, it's a different way of processing the data, and it also shows that Rcherz does need more exposure to higher end and far larger World Archery style events.

Larger, in this case, does not equate to "many tournaments at once" or "many similar/identical tournaments at once". Larger equates to a tournament in which you have 600-900 people at one tournament in one physical location. 

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback. I really can't ask for improvements if I don't know what the people want or need or want fixed. 

-Steve


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Obviously, as far as I'm concerned, target progress refers to the OR rounds. No I'm not talking about the archers entering their scores. *Score entry seemed to be the only part of the system that worked well*, except when the system went down  

For the rest of my comments I think they speak for themselves. Like everyone else, I did not keep detailed notes on the performance of the Rcherz system. My overarching comment is that the package has systemic technical flaws with respect to the output side of the system. I like elegant software designed clean and simple for the end user. In this case the end users are the people trying to access the processed data entered by the archers.


----------



## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Hello, I thought the following could be improved with the Scoring Tablets (or let us know if the feature is already there...):

1. When you finish entering the End Score for an Archer (you hit the green check mark) it cycles to the next Archer needing to be scored for that end A->B->C->D . As it currently is, I would hit the little "back" button" (icon on screen actually) at the top left of the tablet screen, then select the next archer, then select the end. This was annoying because, it normally took a couple taps to get the back button to work, and selecting an Archer, and then the End,.... I tried long hold Taps, Strong Taps, quick Taps, Light Taps...

2. On the Screen where you are entering the Archer's End Score it should show the score for the END, "Distance" (current 36 arrows), and Tournament Running Total. Because each tournament changes their mind if the Paper Running Total should be Tournament Score or "Distance" Score. For the 2nd Round of the Day I couldn't verify the running total with the Paper since only the END and Tournament Running Total were displayed on that screen. I know the information for that "Distance" (current 36 arrows) is available if you go back to the Archer, then click on them, ... but that holds things up.

3. Add the matching color for the background of the Arrow Value. 9&10 = Gold Background, 7&8 = Red, ... it's a quick visual double check. And an Archer can quickly look at his Scorecard and know in a second if they're shooting well or not.

Good Thing:

-I liked you could go back and Re-Edit an End later in the Round. I Fat Fingered one Archer's End entry, skipping the proper End it should've been in, and didn't discover it until the following End. I thought it would be "locked" to updating, but it was easy to redo. 

Thank you,
Brent


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Jim C said:


> my son who has used the wired system in the past said the current system is much easier to us and our tech guy on the 25/30 field named ALVIN was competent, diligent, and patient. He did a lot to make that field run better and I noted that in my ACOJ report I am writing for the TD and the COJ


I was on that same field a lot during that week. He was truly a hard worker, running to the targets to keep everything in going! Great work in my book!

SB


----------



## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Following the Pan American Games or the European Youth Championships this week highlights the simplicity of the Ianseo system. Two clicks and I can find anything I'm looking for. It doesn't matter whether I'm on a desktop, Iphone or an Android. The screens are identical and if left open, the pages refresh without the need for any prompting.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Casualfoto said:


> Following the Pan American Games or the European Youth Championships this week highlights the simplicity of the Ianseo system. Two clicks and I can find anything I'm looking for. It doesn't matter whether I'm on a desktop, Iphone or an Android. The screens are identical and if left open, the pages refresh without the need for any prompting.


And it's international tournament proven and open source. So I'm wondering what features or logistics lead to USAA wanting to go with the Rcherz system?


----------



## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Does anyone know where to find the final results? Not just the top winners but the complete listing. 

JOAD combined, Qualification, Elimination and Team rounds. Its the Nats, that all should be available.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

RickBac said:


> Does anyone know where to find the final results? Not just the top winners but the complete listing.
> 
> JOAD combined, Qualification, Elimination and Team rounds. Its the Nats, that all should be available.


The automated report has errors. Yours truly is one of the poor souls who is responsible for manually verifying every entry, ranging from the Ranking Round to verification that certain people participated or did not participate in the team rounds.

The top 3 for each Grand National Champion division has been verified and passed on to the web page crew.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> And it's international tournament proven and open source. So I'm wondering what features or logistics lead to USAA wanting to go with the Rcherz system?


Short version. Rcherz and Ianseo were both invited to bid for the official scoring system. We did ask for some small add ins as part of the bid.

Ianseo did not respond to USA Archery's bid request queries. Rcherz did. Rcherz won the bid.


----------



## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Short version. Rcherz and Ianseo were both invited to bid for the official scoring system. We did ask for some small add ins as part of the bid.
> 
> Ianseo did not respond to USA Archery's bid request queries. Rcherz did. Rcherz won the bid.


From what I know, ( I requested some changes to the code as well to accommodate USA Archery formats) their policy is that adjustment to the code is not free but after it is done anyone can use it free it will be embedded into the system. In order to have country data set which in our case would have round robin, added cubs, bowmen, yeomen, 600 round, current national database of archers as a look up etc etc. + whatever you wish that would cost $500. World Archery, Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, Norway, Italy did it, but USA Archery didn't want it. So the value of the bid was free code upgrade instead of paying them $500 for their work? I was about to ask other clubs to chip in and have it done. I may still do it alone just to have another option with the software. USAA could use it then for free without "bidding". PM me if anyone is willing to share the cost of the upgrade.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Georgemay said:


> From what I know, ( I requested some changes to the code as well to accommodate USA Archery formats) their policy is that adjustment to the code is not free but after it is done anyone can use it free it will be embedded into the system. In order to have country data set which in our case would have round robin, added cubs, bowmen, yeomen, 600 round, current national database of archers as a look up etc etc. + whatever you wish that would cost $500. World Archery, Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, Norway, Italy did it, but USA Archery didn't want it. So the value of the bid was free code upgrade instead of paying them $500 for their work? I was about to ask other clubs to chip in and have it done. I may still do it alone just to have another option with the software. USAA could use it then for free without "bidding". PM me if anyone is willing to share the cost of the upgrade.


If only there was some way that the many clubs and thousands of archers this update to Ianseo would benefit could join together collectively so that this cost would be mere pennies per person, some sort of "National" archery organization... Sigh...

Paying a mere $500 to update software that can subsequently be used for free at any and every club and tournament across the country seems like a no brainer for a national archery association. Too bad that didn't happen...


----------



## MHoward (Aug 18, 2008)

We noticed that my daughters final score for quals was lower than her final signed paper scorecard.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I think both systems are lacking in some regards. Who wants a bunch of wires on the field?? Heck, even the wired clock didn't work properly much of the time. I am trying to watch teams at the PanAm Games and the only thing you get is who won a set, but no end break downs. And I think that is Ianseo? 

While I agree the spectator experience is not very good with Rcherz, it is also lacking in Ianseo. I thought the archer experience was quite good with Rcherz. Both programs could stand to be improved; and how about getting the 'clock thing' figured out for big tournaments. I thought that was a bigger a detriment to the archer experience at Nationals


----------



## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I think both systems are lacking in some regards. Who wants a bunch of wires on the field?? Heck, even the wired clock didn't work properly much of the time. I am trying to watch teams at the PanAm Games and the only thing you get is who won a set, but no end break downs. And I think that is Ianseo?
> 
> While I agree the spectator experience is not very good with Rcherz, it is also lacking in Ianseo. I thought the archer experience was quite good with Rcherz. Both programs could stand to be improved; and how about getting the 'clock thing' figured out for big tournaments. I thought that was a bigger a detriment to the archer experience at Nationals


Well, that is true to any software. All can be improved a lot. Don't forget that Ianseo is wireless too for long time. If I email you scorecard with QR code you could start entering scores from your home, and watch it updated life on my server, you don't even have to go to the range :wink:.

Regarding wireless clock - here is mine I build recently following directions from http://archeryclock.com/


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Nice! Maybe you can share with Easton and USAA.


----------



## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

As a member of great archery community I can share ALL I know with ANYONE including Easton and USAA just for asking.


----------



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

So you really think it was just $500 to make tye requested changes? And do you really think that was the only factor in choosing one over the other? I would be hard pressed to think that was it (the 500 that is).


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rharper said:


> So you really think it was just $500 to make tye requested changes? And do you really think that was the only factor in choosing one over the other? I would be hard pressed to think that was it (the 500 that is).


Who are you talking to? 

As to me I have no idea what the bids were or were not. However I'm a big fan of open source software and I would think it would be in the interests of USAA and USAA members for the proven Ianseo open source software, that can be used for free, to be updated to work with USAA datasets. So I'm in favor of that regardless of the bid process for the NTC. This is exactly the kind of collective investment that national organizations are created for. 

I'm not saying that Ianseo should have gotten the bid, but I do think that it makes sense for USAA to support proven open source software that can be used for free by clubs around the country.


----------



## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

RickBac said:


> Does anyone know where to find the final results? Not just the top winners but the complete listing.
> 
> JOAD combined, Qualification, Elimination and Team rounds. Its the Nats, that all should be available.



http://www.rcherz.com/en/competitio...nal_Target_Championships___original_divisions


Like this?


----------



## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I do like the ability to drill down on a specific archer and see a each scored arrow.


----------



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

No one in particular, Warbow, just seems that some make it look like it was only the 500 that made the decision difference. I could see 500 PER small customization. That stuff is NOT cheap. The place I work for is about 250 an hour for consulting on software customization. You'll burn that up in just building the framework of the coding.


----------

