# Fastest skinny and long one piece "longbow"?



## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

https://www.kotabows.com


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

4 Fletch said:


> https://www.kotabows.com


They dont make a bow longer than 62. 

Theres quite few 62" zippy "longbows" out there.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

You might look at the Toelke Whip. They make them up to 66".

I've got a 64". Very nice. 

http://montanabows.blogspot.com/p/one-and-two-piece-bow-designs.html


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## Hnh092299 (Jun 3, 2015)

Toelke Whip at 10 gpp at 27” draw, 174 fps.
Lightest LB ever owned, unknown actual wt.
1/2 “ at the tips, 1” at the fades.
Considered a hybrid, reflex deflex.
Very quiet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## IDD65 (Jun 18, 2012)

I went from a Bear AuSable #50 62” to a Falco Saga Vintage #42. The Bear stacked in my 30.5 “ draw to almost 60 lbs so it was a rocket ship but I couldn’t handle that weight. Ausable comes in 64” also. Falco is smooth and stable and fast thx to the carbon and bamboo in the limbs.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Im familiar with Toelke Whips. Nice bows but not what I would go so far as to consider fast. 

And once again Im looking for bows that are at least 66 and preferably 68 or more.


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## jerrym (Mar 18, 2007)

A&H one piece 66"


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I've never heard of significant speed differences between good bows of that description. 

My guess is most of the bows with that criteria at 66" to 68" are all going to be with a few FPS of each other. It seems to me that someone buying bows like that are less concerned with speed and more about shootability. A bow like Centaur will be faster with a performance advantage...but those are shorter than your criteria. 

Bows like Liberty, Toelke, Stewart, and a bunch more I cannot think of right now all make very good bows in that 66" 68" range. 

_____


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## jerrym (Mar 18, 2007)

Beendare said:


> I've never heard of significant speed differences between good bows of that description.
> 
> My guess is most of the bows with that criteria at 66" to 68" are all going to be with a few FPS of each other. It seems to me that someone buying bows like that are less concerned with speed and more about shootability. A bow like Centaur will be faster with a performance advantage...but those are shorter than your criteria.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Well said - to say he doesnt know the answer?

Hes saying a bunch of stuff I know. The point of asking the question was that maybe someone here on one the most popular trad sites might know answers or or at least have some specific input on some of the bows. 

Im not complaining that he gave his input. But complimenting non-responses seems like a bit much.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Beltcher longhorn bow was the fastest longbow I ever shot.
Smooth and very fast. If I remember correctly in the neighborhood of 200 fps.
Might have been slightly more.


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## Toxalot (Nov 17, 2019)

There's a point of diminishig returns on both ends of the speed spectrum. Fast is only helpful if you can hit what you're shooting at consistently. Fit is first and foremost the most important aspect of any bow. After that, you can find which one works best for you. It likely won't be the fastest or the slowest. Speed is not the only facet of a good bow and actually not even in the top three in my opinion.


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## jerrym (Mar 18, 2007)

So what fps are you looking for? @ what DW & DL


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

It's just a guess at best. There is no way anyone can have shot every bow made in the same poundage... same arrow...so speculation at best... I'd guess javaman Impala double or triple carbon


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Dartwick said:


> Well said - to say he doesnt know the answer?
> 
> Hes saying a bunch of stuff I know. The point of asking the question was that maybe someone here on one the most popular trad sites might know answers or or at least have some specific input on some of the bows.
> 
> Im not complaining that he gave his input. But complimenting non-responses seems like a bit much.


Maybe you aren't really looking for a bow at all. It seems like your purpose is something else.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

MontanaMarine said:


> Maybe you aren't really looking for a bow at all. It seems like your purpose is something else.


Oh really? Please explain my psyche and motivations, Im interested in your wisdom.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Last time I checked, traditional archery, and longbows in particular, are not a game of speed...…but I'm sure you already know that.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I would suggest asking Kegan what he thinks he could do for what you want, give him info of draw length, holding weight, arrow weight, and when you're looking for with that comparison, and then throwing that in your comparison list with whatever qualifications he's given. A bow could be fast because it's tolerate of light arrows, and could be a FPS king because of it, but not actually store much energy. That could be fine so long as you're not shooting anything where penetration matters, or distance where excessive drag/mass becomes an issue. That same design could be fine at relatively low holding weight, but becomes problematic at higher draw weights where more residual energy becomes uncomfortable/destructive. Or, it could be a very fast bow for chucking a relatively heavy arrow.

Regardless, Kegan may not know brand comparisons, but he knows longbows, and has spent way more time than most of us exploring options in design, and how they tend to affect performance under different conditions, and even if you don't end up wanting one of his bows, you could narrow down the design type that might best suit your particular version of fast.

Plus, he's a nice guy.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Something like an a&h 3 piece with the handle set back is probably going to give you the most performance...but I can read...you want a one piece and I will stick with the javaman


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

MontanaMarine said:


> Last time I checked, traditional archery, and longbows in particular, are not a game of speed...…but I'm sure you already know that.


Last time O checked you were a pompous #@$^%$# - but Im sure you already knew that.

Just because it isnt what you are interested in that doesnt mean it cant be what I would like. 

If you want to make comment saying your opinions about archery are all that matter - its lame but its fair game on a forum. 

If you want to comment about me personally - you better back it up. Which you didnt - so why dont you shut up and go away.



EDIT: sorry to everyone else. I appreciate your thoughts. I really didnt like this yahoo deciding to rip on me personally.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MontanaMarine said:


> Last time I checked, traditional archery, and longbows in particular, are not a game of speed...…but I'm sure you already know that.


It sort of isn't, and yet it still is, not so much as many think, but there is a tempting rationale in that if you go to an unmarked 3D tournament, and put an arrow just under the target, or just below the kill, it's not unusual to think, "If my arrows was just a little faster" or to think that the guy or gal with the fast bow is scoring the way they are because of a tighter trajectory.

The flatness of the trajectory makes a difference, but far less than most people would think, because it isn't the difference in drop at a given distance, it is about the difference in drop between the distance erroneously estimated versus the distance aimed at, and that difference between bows isn't really a whole lot compared to the absolute difference in drop at the target distance, and if neither distance estimation or aiming compensation are particularly well done, well... that's not the bow's fault.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Are you looking for something like this?

https://speedbows.net/


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

You're not interested in my wisdom. you're interested in showing the forum how much smarter you are, than the rest of us.

Here's my suggestion to you. Since you don't consider the Toelke particularly fast, there must be another bow that meets your basic criteria you are using as a mental yardstick of comparison. You didn't share what bow that might be. I'll just refer to it as your 'yardstick'.

So here's what you do, take your yardstick, and work up the lightest arrow it can handle. Whatever speed that is, is going to be about as fast as you'll get with any other bow within the criteria you are looking for.

Have a great journey.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Dartwick said:


> Last time O checked you were a pompous #@$^%$# - but Im sure you already knew that.
> 
> Just because it isnt what you are interested in that doesnt mean it cant be what I would like.
> 
> ...




Look, you are the smartest guy in the room.....there, feel better now?


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

MontanaMarine said:


> Look, you are the smartest guy in the room.....there, feel better now?


What are you talking about?

I asked a question - it was specific. 
-many people read and didnt answer - thats cool
-some people answered with useful information - thats cool
-someone didnt quite understand what I was asking but tried to answer. - thats cool
-some people didnt think it was much a useful question - I dont care for that but people can have opinions - thats fine

-and then there was you. You did decided to passively aggressively suggest I had ulterior motives and proceeded to $&!# all over the thread because you dont like people doing trad archery the wrong way.


Stop posting and go away.


EDIT: Thanks everyone else though. For the record I dont compete - Im just always chasing my personal ideal.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm just interested in what bow you are thinking is significantly faster than a Whip, in the slim longbow format.

It was a serious suggestion, but you discounted it without any quantification. So instead of trying to flatter me with your candid compliments, why not talk bows?


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

One of the longer longbows I'd like to try out is the 68" OMP Sierra. I believe it's a straight D-loop style. It's easy on the eyes, and I'd think it would be a lot of enjoyment. I see them for under $200 on the 'net.

https://www.octobermountainproducts.com/shop/bows/sierra-longbow

Lancaster has a 70" with mild R/D, but was out of stock last I looked.

Not sure how skinny you are looking for, these aren't the slimmest, but look pretty nice.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Here's that Black Ridge 70" from Lancaster.

https://www.lancasterarchery.com/galaxy-black-ridge-70-longbow.html


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

MontanaMarine said:


> I'm just interested in what bow you are thinking is significantly faster than a Whip, in the slim longbow format.
> 
> It was a serious suggestion, but you discounted it without any quantification. So instead of trying to flatter me with your candid compliments, why not talk bows?


No. That is NOT what you initially said. 

I know that A&H bows are sort of famous fast - and they are fairly expensive too. 
And I had always heard that Kegans Omega Original was pretty fast. I think those 2 topped out at 66"
Ive heard people say the Stewart Slammer is pretty quick but I dont hear as much about them - theres some bows that are simply talked about more on forums than others. 

Im sure theres other bows too. In a question like this Im always hoping someone will chime with a comparison based on first hand experience with a bow that people dont talk about as much. There are a lot of bowyers out there.


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## Oryguncannaseur (Jan 12, 2020)

http://www.weswallacebows.com/Traditional-Archery-Longbows.html

I'll let you know when I get my wallace Royal in a couple weeks. I test shot his personal #52 and it blew me away how smooth and quick they are.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Dartwick said:


> No. That is NOT what you initially said...


Of course it wasn't. I don't tend to repeat myself.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Another way to see which direction to go is to ask your price range. Toelke is popular because they are reasonably priced...other high end bowyers might be several hundred dollars more...like widows, 
and Stewart slammer.


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## twopass is me (Apr 14, 2020)

SCORPION Longbow BY Southwest Archery is 68" but I know nothing of longbows


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Here's a couple pics of the 64" Whip just to give some perspective on how slim it is. Drawing around 31".

Pay no mind to the dude pulling the string....he's an az-zhole (most times).


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## bbtradlb (Jul 8, 2016)

Oryguncannaseur said:


> http://www.weswallacebows.com/Traditional-Archery-Longbows.html
> 
> I'll let you know when I get my wallace Royal in a couple weeks. I test shot his personal #52 and it blew me away how smooth and quick they are.


You’ll like it, he makes sweet shooting bows.


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## HawkeyeII (Sep 19, 2019)

A&H are very fast high end bows. I shoot the BW PL very and that is my biggest consideration. Speed is just an extra benefit.


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## trouthunter (Jul 26, 2015)

Leon Stewart is a great bowyer and could probably make what you are asking for.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

kegan said:


> Are you looking for something like this?
> 
> https://speedbows.net/


Thanks for the link. Not really what Im looking for, but an interesting read. Im not expecting amazing speeds and Im not looking for a reflex riser for reflex risers like that. 

I guess Im back to the usual suspects. Thats I was just hoping to find out what I might be missing. Theres a lot of bowers out there trying to make the fastest 62/64" longbow they can - and Im sure thats because thats what customers mostly want.


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

Dartwick said:


> They dont make a bow longer than 62.
> 
> Theres quite few 62" zippy "longbows" out there.


Why do you want it so long?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I'd check with Gregg from javaman...the Impala might be what you want...he offers it with several layers of carbon... surely that would gain some speed and I know it's available in a 68"... otherwise the 66" whip might be the best option other than a full blown custom build with a serious wait time.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Dartwick said:


> Well said - to say he doesnt know the answer?
> 
> .



I do know the answer...and I gave it to you, you just didn't want to hear it. 

There not much difference in speed with the bows in that skinny, long 68" configuration. 



_____


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

4 Fletch said:


> Why do you want it so long?


Well partly because I do have a long draw. And partly because I think Ill get a cleaner release. But in large part its just because it seems right to me.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Dartwick, I completely understand the goal of your OP. However, Opa seems to be the only person, to my knowledge, that's building the kind of bow you asked about initially with little to no deflex and lots of speed. If that's what you're after, of course. That's the kind of design you will find for that performance. A&H is another version at a higher price point. Maybe it's worth contacting them directly for a personal custom bow?

I didn't realize that most of Opa bows were around the 64" mark. As a bowyer that makes sense, but it wasn't my intention to just ignore that part of your search. Apologies.

From your OP, there really aren't many specific examples that stand out, either mainstream or otherwise, in terms of numbers. Bows require two things to hit high FPS numbers: high stored energy and high efficiency. Opa has taken the idea of longbow speed to the extreme, although admittedly his quality is not what most expect from "custom" work om that price range. I charge notably less and would be ashamed of sending out a bow with such tool marks pictured (and have been), but I build for folks who shoot their bows a lot at marks and not just over a chrono. I'm not really certain that I build a 35# bow that shoots a 500 gr arrow faster. Perhaps I'm too conservative? I don't know at this time, but if I were to build what you asked about initially it would look a lot like his bows.

While I agree with some of the posts that you're "chasing a unicorn" in a lot of ways, the idea is very real and not unrealistic. It's just not popular because these bows are much harder to shoot. If I had more demand for a purely performance bow that's the kind of design I would be building for sure. I'm a speed geek. It's constantly on my mind. The idea of a forward handle longbow with super stiff stips and an absurd amount of reflex has been in my mind for YEARS. However, that kind of design is temperamental. Hard to tiller, hard to shoot, hard to really enjoy consistently if you don't keep up with maintanence. If you have ever seen what historical Asiatic composit shooters do to balance their bows, you'll understand that a certain level of care is required.

It's like a Corvette vs. a Ferrari. Market demand is a tricky thing, and most folks looking for that sort of performance just go for a carbon super recurve... or a compound. Longbows have never really been the "performance" option for speed. The other qualities and pure simple elegance are a separate draw.

Again, I understand what you're asking for initially and I just want to convey that the idea is limiting. Personally, I'd say it's time to look at Bingham's and start building... but hey to each their own.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Thanks for the in depth response. My knowledge on actual bow making is limited that was informative. The dream bow you describe is is kind of the idealized bow Ive had in my mind for a long time too but at a more basic concept level.

I didnt realize that the deflex riser with extreme reflexed would be much harder to shoot and maintain(my current longbow is has only a modest reflex deflex) can you tell what happens that makes it harder to use? Is it mostly related the issues in maintaining the bow or is there a reason that its just always harder to shoot?. 

Anyway thanks again for that response.


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## YamahaYG68 (Jun 11, 2018)

kegan said:


> but I build for folks who shoot their bows a lot at marks and not over a chrono. I'm not really certain that I build a 35# bow that shoots a 500 gr arrow faster per se, although last year after I messed up my right arm I certainly tried. Didn't chrono it, just tried to get through the year. I like bows that forgive my human error (because I'm a doofus) and his designs are more aggressive than mine optimizing performance. Perhaps I'm too conservative?


Kegan

IMHO, you're not too conservative. 

For me if it is a choice between a few extra fps and something that is easier for me to shoot consistently with, I will always choose the good "shooter". My opinion is that speed, without control is not to useful and I need all the help I can get with consistent, accurate form/shooting :embara:

I found it interesting to play with this trajectory calculator; http://peteward.com/ballistic.calc.htm

It seems to me, from working with that program, one has to push an arrow of a given weight quite a bit faster to get a markedly, desirable result with trajectory, I don't know if that much velocity difference can be typically achieved, with the same draw weight, for a trad bow design.

I don't have access to a chronograph, but I have shot my new Imperial out to 30 yards (so far before we closed the club for distancing) and was quite pleased with the performance all round, it is an easy bow for me to shoot well and that is what I look for in a bow. I think you have landed on a design that is an excellent balance of performance and shoot-ability


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Kegan is being nice....that Opa bow is overpriced and questionable quality. 

He is also being nice about you adjusting your expectations....essentially what Montana was telling you. Sounds like Kegan can make an Omega as close as anyone....and his reputation is impeccable. 

I for one would be interested in seeing a bow like that...and hearing about its performance....sounds like a cool setup even if its not a rocket ship. 

__________


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

I think some people are over estimating my desire(not expectations) - A&H basically makes something on the edge of what I want - Id rather 68" than 66" 

There are faster longbows than a Whip. The Whip is a nice bow but I dont know why half of you are making the case that it unreasonable to want something faster.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Dartwick, Do you have a quantifiable goal you are looking to achieve? For example some combination of draw weight, arrow weight, and velocity?


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## RidgeReaper23 (Aug 4, 2014)

Check out Riverbend Longbows by Ray Fletcher. Amazing bows and amazing bowyer!


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Dartwick said:


> I think some people are over estimating my desire(not expectations) - A&H basically makes something on the edge of what I want - Id rather 68" than 66"
> 
> There are faster longbows than a Whip. The Whip is a nice bow but I dont know why half of you are making the case that it unreasonable to want something faster.


A&H is on the top end of performance [but bottom end of customer service] 

I would be curious to see how much faster that A&H is....3%, 5%? 

Its not going to be 10% faster than a Toelke. I have some of the A&H patented design longbow limbs from Dryad.....6fps faster than comparable...3.5%

...and still a lot slower than my recurves. 

______


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## jwingman (Feb 7, 2007)

You asked a question that involves an opinion. You will get many of them. Some you may like and some you may not. Good luck in your search.


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## Commander Cody (Nov 24, 2006)

A&H ACS...these aree 3 pc TD, but their 1 pc are even sleeker.


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## Hnh092299 (Jun 3, 2015)

All this over 6-12fps. Amazing. Back to my original post....Toelke [emoji23]. Yet I admit some bias. 


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