# Temporary Seated Form Issue



## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Don't know if they posted, going to try again


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Going to keep trying, these are "hopefully" pics with the DL dropped by 1/2" Didn't move the mods, just the stops so if there's a grimace, there's no valley and it took a little more concentration to stay on the wall.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Kelly. Head is tilted right eye socket low. Clear sign that the draw length (for sighted folks) is too long. Try to level out both eye sockets, and see if this changes things.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Release side wrist, the metacarpals in the back of your hand are not in line with the radius and ulna in your forearm, so you have a "hitch" in your wrist. Another signature of a draw length a tad long. Tension in the flexor muscles in the forearm, cuz you have to hitch the wrist at an acute angle, to take up the extra draw length.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Kelly, in rear view photo, bow riser is canted significantly to the right.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Kelly, you have a 9 degree tilt to the right.











Suggest add a threaded rod through a hole in the bottom third of the riser, and add lots of fender washers to create a pendulum effect. Each fender washer is 1/3 ounce, so add enough fender washers so you can feel "plumb".


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Will try to work on the head tilt- Get quite a bit of tightness when the head is rotated counterclockwise, and a right tilt seems to help a bit, but something I'll work on. 

As for tilt, I usually run a back bar pointed significantly downwards [pendulum] But I'm not in shooting form, and between not being able to lever the bow the same with a little back pressure as I do when standing and having to hold a little longer as I get settled plus the fact that I'm just a wimp, the shoulder just doesn't hold out long with the added weight. 

As for the cant, my nose button was centered, but I imagine the head tilt/rotation and lack of lower weights contributes to pushing it right over. 

Did the second set of pics show any difference/improvement? I only got a couple ends off with the shorter setting, I was launching to many accidential shots with the [lack of] valley and my hinge set fairly hot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Will try to work on the head tilt- Get quite a bit of tightness when the head is rotated counterclockwise, and a right tilt seems to help a bit, but something I'll work on.
> 
> As for tilt, I usually run a back bar pointed significantly downwards [pendulum] But I'm not in shooting form, and between not being able to lever the bow the same with a little back pressure as I do when standing and having to hold a little longer as I get settled plus the fact that I'm just a wimp, the shoulder just doesn't hold out long with the added weight.
> 
> ...


Set hinge colder, like STONE cold. This will force you to fully relax the tensor muscles in the forearm, to get full alignment between forearm and the metacarpals in back of hahd. Relaxed tensor muscles, in line with bones in back of hand is most efficient for transfering pulling force from elbow (right side) to the handle of your hinge release. GRIV calls this the yielding of the palm (flattening of the palm). Try to relax wrist as much as you can, to get rid of the acute angle (like peak of a roof top) between palm and radius/ulna in the forearm. Setting release stone cold, forces a more in line alignment for the release arm all the way to the knuckles around your hinge.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Will try to work on the head tilt- Get quite a bit of tightness when the head is rotated counterclockwise, and a right tilt seems to help a bit, but something I'll work on.
> 
> As for tilt, I usually run a back bar pointed significantly downwards [pendulum] But I'm not in shooting form, and between not being able to lever the bow the same with a little back pressure as I do when standing and having to hold a little longer as I get settled plus the fact that I'm just a wimp, the shoulder just doesn't hold out long with the added weight.
> 
> ...


Tightness for head rotation in counter-clockwise direction. Don't force this rotation. Try to keep eye sockets level and only rotate as much as your range of motion allows.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Will try to work on the head tilt- Get quite a bit of tightness when the head is rotated counterclockwise, and a right tilt seems to help a bit, but something I'll work on.
> 
> As for tilt, I usually run a back bar pointed significantly downwards [pendulum] But I'm not in shooting form, and between not being able to lever the bow the same with a little back pressure as I do when standing and having to hold a little longer as I get settled plus the fact that I'm just a wimp, the shoulder just doesn't hold out long with the added weight.
> 
> ...


Sitting on a stool does take out any stabilizing effect from the lower body. I would add weight onto the riser itself, through a hole in the riser, to increase the pendulum effect, so the riser will auto plumb itself. Variable cant for top of bow off to the right, will exacerbate the right misses.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Kelly. I don't see a wrist sling. Even a loop of paracord, will suffice as a wrist loop. This way, you don't have to "grab" the bow after the shot. Thenar eminence is oozing substantially past the right vertical edge of your grip. Would like to see more knuckles rotation (bow hand) so less of the thenar eminence is over-flowing the right edge of the grip. Combined with no wrist loop, this would explain the right misses...as well as the 9 degree tilt of top of bow to the right.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Kelly. I don't see a wrist sling. Even a loop of paracord, will suffice as a wrist loop. This way, you don't have to "grab" the bow after the shot. Thenar eminence is oozing substantially past the right vertical edge of your grip. Would like to see more knuckles rotation (bow hand) so less of the thenar eminence is over-flowing the right edge of the grip. Combined with no wrist loop, this would explain the right misses...as well as the 9 degree tilt of top of bow to the right.



I will see what I can do about the grip- It's hard to get that 45deg because I lose the feel of the tactile the closer to 45deg I rotate. 

I'll put a wrist sling back on- In an earlier tactile design the tripod was closer to the bow, and in one event a judge thought I was using the stand as an additional bow support because I kept tapping it on the shot... I ended up developing a more dramatic "catch the bow" grip and response, and just never tried letting it go with the stand set farther from the bow. 

Dang, a lot to work on... Thanks a ton.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Another question- the wrist and how it relates to GRIV's comments starting around 23:45






Only in that a conscious effort to straighten the wrist seems to add a lot of tension on the back half, but then maybe it's just working against a bad habit.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> I will see what I can do about the grip- It's hard to get that 45deg because I lose the feel of the tactile the closer to 45deg I rotate.
> 
> I'll put a wrist sling back on- In an earlier tactile design the tripod was closer to the bow, and in one event a judge thought I was using the stand as an additional bow support because I kept tapping it on the shot... I ended up developing a more dramatic "catch the bow" grip and response, and just never tried letting it go with the stand set farther from the bow.
> 
> Dang, a lot to work on... Thanks a ton.


Can you modify the tactile with some sugru, so you contact the back of your hand i two locations (two peaks)
and this will allow for a more pronounced knuckles rotation?

Judges. Gotta luv em. Was shooting a USAA event. Ballistic netting behind the easel and the 4 ft diameter fita target.
Only one arrow was in the target...like a 9 or 10 ring. I forget. Other two arrows were buried in the ballistic netting. Judge gave me 2 x's. I ended up doing this multiple times. Gave me 10s and ultimately switched me to another target stand.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Another question- the wrist and how it relates to GRIV's comments starting around 23:45
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Find some paracord and make a practice loop. Start with the loop too long and twist into a figure 8 to shorten the loop. Idea is to experiment with the size of the practice loop, either retying the loop shorter (loosen knot and retie knot) or as you sneak up to the ideal draw length with the practice loop, just a single or maybe a double figure 8 twist.

Relax the tensor muscles in the forearm, so the forearm becomes literally a ROPE that connects the elbow to the fingers curled around the handle of your release. To get this FEEL of relaxing into a steady hold, while seated on your stool, hold a heavy suitcase and let the heavy bag hang. Stool may be too short, to allow your right arm to hand straight down. Can take weight lifting plate and tie with rope (short enough) and add a handle, and just allow the weight to hang...from shoulder to elbow to release side wrist. Hold that heavy weight long enough, and you get the FEEL of the tensor muscles in the forearm INLINE with he metacarpals in the back of hand. Hold up the weight long enough that the forearm muscles fatigue.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Another question- the wrist and how it relates to GRIV's comments starting around 23:45
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are stuck low at 6-o'clock, then GRIV Thing a Week #8 and #9.











Shooting seated is much more complex than shooting while standing.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Can you modify the tactile with some sugru, so you contact the back of your hand i two locations (two peaks)
> and this will allow for a more pronounced knuckles rotation?
> 
> Judges. Gotta luv em. Was shooting a USAA event. Ballistic netting behind the easel and the 4 ft diameter fita target.
> Only one arrow was in the target...like a 9 or 10 ring. I forget. Other two arrows were buried in the ballistic netting. Judge gave me 2 x's. I ended up doing this multiple times. Gave me 10s and ultimately switched me to another target stand.



Unfortunately, only one point of contact is permitted. I do have the tactile tip angled slightly downwards, perhaps I'll play with some Sugru to put more of an angle on it to decrease the angle between the pointer ad the knuckles, but this may require me to hold upwards tension against it to keep a good contact. .


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you are stuck low at 6-o'clock, then GRIV Thing a Week #8 and #9.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure I do, or at least could effectively evaluate, if I'm holding low- if my shots are ever low I simply adjust the elevation of the tactile. 

I have been neglecting to scoop the bow into a draw. I know the pics were with a hoodie so it's more difficult to see the shoulders, but I may be letting it drift up out of the pocket- something I'll have to pay attention too.


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## mrp (Oct 13, 2007)

Seems simple to me. More bacK tension and you’ll be hitting where you want.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Not sure I do, or at least could effectively evaluate, if I'm holding low- if my shots are ever low I simply adjust the elevation of the tactile.
> 
> I have been neglecting to scoop the bow into a draw. I know the pics were with a hoodie so it's more difficult to see the shoulders, but I may be letting it drift up out of the pocket- something I'll have to pay attention too.


Since you are temporarily on a stool, find some closed cell foam (about 1/4-inch thick) and cut a 5-inch wide strip
and duct tape it onto the stool, so you lift up the right side butt cheek. IT's a shim. I want to change the pelvic tilt, to bias the right butt cheek high, and correspondingly bias the left butt cheek low. This should kill or minimize your Low Dingers, if any.

I work with a shooter on the US ParaElite team. I see him when he comes to my area for an upgrade or modifications to his computer controlled prosthetic leg. I do a crude gait analysis, but more importantly, I watch to see how the new leg affects his shooting (evaluate group size). So, I use cardboard shims to affect/tweak yaw, roll and pitch angles. So, cardboard shims positioned at the rear of the heel, or the rear of heel-left edge or rear of heel-right edge. By shimming his heel (could be prosthetic heel or could be his natural heel), I fine tune/micro tune his pevlic tilt in the coronal plane (left to right bias for hip joints), and in the sagittal plane (front to rear bias for pelvis). Yes, this matters...for the target shooters. You can do the same with layers of closed cell foam to create a flat platform of foam, or a tapered layer of foam (front-back) or (left to right edge of foam).

Goal is to make the bow arm FEEL lighter and lighter, as if the bow is floating. Technically, you can shoot a pistol between heartbeats (with sufficient training), you can slow down your heartbeat on command (with sufficient training), and you can (with training) get to a zero float for 2-3 seconds, after hitting anchor. Need to find your alignment, how much to tilt your head sideways, how much to tilt the bow riser (cant angle)...maybe time to custom mold the grip, like all the recurve folks do. If you use Sugru to modify the grip, you want to create a wedge to custom modify the grip angle, and also create a wedge going left to right, usually high side on the left edge of the grip, tapering down to a thinner wedge on the right side of the grip. You can build in a palm swell on the left side to adjust your bow hand knuckles rotation.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Going to shoot the Reckoning [with the sliding draw stops] tomorrow- I think I have it right on the edge between too little let off and too long of a draw. It also has five 5/16" lower stabilizer bushings that I installed about 8oz of weight to on the left most bushing at the cost of using my lightest long stab and pulling all the weight off. 

I've thought about modifying the grit, I've got a few grip changes I want to try first. I've got a lot of atrophy in my thumb muscles, and I want to play with a couple positions that will rotate the knuckles out and not rest on boney structures. 

I have an idea for the hip wedge- I'll have to try to get to our local military surplus and pick up an old bed roll- I think the foam density will be just about right, in my mind anyway. 

Thanks again.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Going to shoot the Reckoning [with the sliding draw stops] tomorrow- I think I have it right on the edge between too little let off and too long of a draw. It also has five 5/16" lower stabilizer bushings that I installed about 8oz of weight to on the left most bushing at the cost of using my lightest long stab and pulling all the weight off.
> 
> I've thought about modifying the grit, I've got a few grip changes I want to try first. I've got a lot of atrophy in my thumb muscles, and I want to play with a couple positions that will rotate the knuckles out and not rest on boney structures.
> 
> ...


Luv surplus stores. Experiment and let us know how it goes. Since you have atrophy in the thumb muscles, do what is comfortable.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Shot a WA indoor round yesterday- Warmed up with the added weights on the bottom of the riser but was starting to feel a little fatigue in the shoulder... And as the round went on the groups drifted [tsunamied] to the right, but last few ends I put some of the weights back on [took off 4oz], and the group locked to the left side of the target except for the occasional flier, so I'm going to focus on the weights as the results between on and off did show a possible improvement. 

Slowed the hinge way down, but didn't get time to practice it on the paracord, and it gave me quite a few "yips" shots. It's an HBC with a click, and I found I needed to rotate so far around to get to the click before starting my execution I was losing my normal anchor feel. Completely took me out of my Turner "closed loop" process and got into my head something wicked. I'll try working it on the paracord, but may speed it up a little if I'm still a mental mess. 

Exciting news though- surgeon just gave the "full steam ahead/best foot forward" blessings to getting on the new leg. Already did a trial fit a couple weeks ago, and we made some fit and function adjustments then, but if it looks like I'll be able to bring it home in the next few days I'll give up scores for a bit and just work on getting used to shooting while standing again. 

The upside though; when looking back through my old practice and competition notes, the past two virtual tournaments I shot I did shoot above my averages- only with fewer 10s/9s and more misses... 

Thanks again.


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