# So, if instictive can't compete with gapping or string walking, how close can it come



## Ben Pearson (Oct 7, 2016)

I can sense some of you already getting your shorts in a bind. I'm not attacking gapping or sting walking. But that isn't what I like to do, I like to do is instinctive. Seems like I should be able to put up a post about instinctive without one of you guys getting all defensive. Jeez, it's like talking to my oldest brother.
I accept that string walking and gap shooting are more accurate. That isn't the point. I don't want to get good at string walking or gap shooting, I want to get good at instinctive. I'd rather put an angry ferret down my pants than string walk. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.
So the question is, could a good instinctive shooter place high in a trad tournament? I was watching the trad shooters at the Lancaster Classic, and they were good. Far better than me, but I wasn't that impressed. If I weren't blind, hadn't messed up my left elbow and right shoulder last winter, made archery more of a priority (right now it's behind cycling, mountain climbing, hiking, backpacking, canoeing, and sex. Not necessarily in that order) and invested in really top notch equipment, I think I could get arrows in the gold pretty consistently. In a few months of pistol shooting, I went from having a hard time hitting a ten inch frying pan at 50 ft, to being able to hit it at 100 yards. I'm pretty sure, if I weren't 63 years old and falling apart, I could hit the gold center at 20 yards pretty frequently. Even now, with my Olympic recurve, I've gotten five out of six arrows in the gold from 15 yards. If I could do that consistently from 20 yards, I'd be pretty competitive. There must be instinctive archers out there that can do that. I've seen some pretty amazing shots on the internet.


----------



## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

You're not going to get far talking about watching the Lancaster Classic and NOT being impressed. The guy that won is a member here and well respected. You're simply here to cause problems, I doubt you even shoot a bow. You should post less, read more, especially if you're going to throw shade at people who've forgotten more about archery than you'll ever know.


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

> I can sense some of you already getting your shorts in a bind. I'm not attacking gapping or sting walking. But that isn't what I like to do, I like to do is instinctive.


You really should make up your mind. In a previous post you said you used a "bit of a gap."




> Seems like I should be able to put up a post about instinctive without one of you guys getting all defensive. Jeez, it's like talking to my oldest brother.


I can appreciate what your oldest brother endures.



> I accept that string walking and gap shooting are more accurate. That isn't the point. I don't want to get good at string walking or gap shooting, I want to get good at instinctive. I'd rather put an angry ferret down my pants than string walk. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.


Again... please make up your mind.




> So the question is, could a good instinctive shooter place high in a trad tournament?


No and if they do, they're not shooting "instinctive." They're trying convince someone they are because they're into the religion of TRAD.



> I was watching the trad shooters at the Lancaster Classic, and they were good.


You were not watching the "trad" shooters; you were watching the participants in the Lancaster Archery Classic Bare Bow class (which may be different than other bare bow classes).



> ....but I wasn't that impressed.


Then, you sir, can not be impressed.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Demmer shot a 299 NFAA score using gap. Why do you shoot one and post the target? You can even use your Olympic bow so it'll be really easy.


----------



## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Demmer shot a 299 NFAA score using gap. Why do you shoot one and post the target? You can even use your Olympic bow so it'll be really easy.


Well he would, but he doesn't actually own a bow. Just a lot of free time and an internet connection.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Prayers sent...it's Sunday.


----------



## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

grantmac said:


> Demmer shot a 299 NFAA score using gap. Why do you shoot one and post the target? You can even use your Olympic bow so it'll be really easy.


I wonder if I could shoot a 299 on the NFAA blue face with my old PPC revolver? Nah…probably not…might could do it instinctively though. That could be interesting!


----------



## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Prayers sent...it's Sunday.




Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Ben Pearson said:


> So the question is, could a good instinctive shooter place high in a trad tournament?


Taken as a serious question. So here's a serious answer.

Yes. He could even win. BUT there is a qualifier. It is dependent upon who else shows up. 

In a field of competition composed solely of those who shoot "instinctive" the good instinctive shooter will win. If good shooters running a conscious aiming system are also competing, the good instinctive shooter may actually place high. But those who can do that are EXTREMELY rare, and it it even more unlikely that he will actually take the win.


----------



## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

2011 NFAA indoor nationals there was a self-described "instinctive" archer who shot 259 with 8 X and 264 13 X. Seventh place out of twelve, for whatever that's worth. The winner (men's traditional) shot 276 14 X, and 271 16 X.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

History of the OP's posts aside, I think this is a great topic.

If we define instinctive as simply using no conscious reference to point the arrow, then I think instinctive can be almost, if not as accurate, as gapping and string walking at the close range shooting most of us do. The aiming technique itself is very similar to gap. 

I've had the wonderful fortune to shoot with some really great archers, including Dewayne and John, as well as some folks who weren't so accurate. The biggest difference between the best and "the rest" seemed to be a very strong mental game and consistent form. The trouble with instinctive shooting is that it seems to encourage rebellion against strictness, which is what you need to really shoot well. There's a need to be machine-like in your physical and mental consistency. However, I don't believe that demand for strictness really caries over to aiming at the closer ranges that most of us shoot, if the shooters equipment is properly set up for it. 

Some of my best shooting has been done with no focus on the arrow and all of it on shot execution. Recently I've been playing with a fixed crawl to replace the high anchor, but due to my glasses, I cannot get PO crawl under 30 yards. Tried gapping at first, but became distracted by trying to find the perfect gap/crawl combination. After that I decided to just look at the spot and run my shot, letting the now much more forgiving fast arrow/short PO system work on its own. So I've just been bringing the tab to the third nock point and running the shot with no focus on the tip. The results are good (for me) and requires no more thought on aiming or distance than when I tried to replicate Mr. Asbell's technique and results ten years ago. Time will tell how well I can do with this kind of set up, but so far I'm enjoying myself at least. 

Personally, this gapstinctive crawl thing is a heck of a lot more fun than ferrets in the pants, but hey, who am I to judge? To each their own! :wink:


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Ben Pearson said:


> I can sense some of you already getting your shorts in a bind. I'm not attacking gapping or sting walking. But that isn't what I like to do, I like to do is instinctive. Seems like I should be able to put up a post about instinctive without one of you guys getting all defensive. Jeez, it's like talking to my oldest brother.
> I accept that string walking and gap shooting are more accurate. That isn't the point. I don't want to get good at string walking or gap shooting, I want to get good at instinctive. I'd rather put an angry ferret down my pants than string walk. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.
> So the question is, could a good instinctive shooter place high in a trad tournament? I was watching the trad shooters at the Lancaster Classic, and they were good. Far better than me, but I wasn't that impressed. If I weren't blind, hadn't messed up my left elbow and right shoulder last winter, made archery more of a priority (right now it's behind cycling, mountain climbing, hiking, backpacking, canoeing, and sex. Not necessarily in that order) and invested in really top notch equipment, I think I could get arrows in the gold pretty consistently. In a few months of pistol shooting, I went from having a hard time hitting a ten inch frying pan at 50 ft, to being able to hit it at 100 yards. I'm pretty sure, if I weren't 63 years old and falling apart, I could hit the gold center at 20 yards pretty frequently. Even now, with my Olympic recurve, I've gotten five out of six arrows in the gold from 15 yards. If I could do that consistently from 20 yards, I'd be pretty competitive. There must be instinctive archers out there that can do that. I've seen some pretty amazing shots on the internet.


First off, IN MY OPINION, all shooting without a sight, IS INSTINCTIVE. We learn every shot that we employ, one way or another. For me it was several years of 5 yards to 50 (so to speak... :grin and then when I learned what an anchor was... and actually thought about what I was doing... it was probably a form of gap shooting.. but without consciously forming a "gap style" but "learning it" from practice. GAP shooting, string walking, and the rest of it, IN MY OPINION... are still forms of learned responses that for the life of me I don't personally understand how people don't realize that... or maybe I don't.... :grin:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> 2011 NFAA indoor nationals there was a self-described "instinctive" archer who shot 259 with 8 X and 264 13 X. Seventh place out of twelve, for whatever that's worth. The winner (men's traditional) shot 276 14 X, and 271 16 X.


And the only reason the differences above were so comparatively minuscule?...is because the max distance was only 20yds...yet the instinctive aimer still lost by a good margin.

BP?....I wasn't even going to bother with this thread as I've been a part of way to many already but?...you remind me of some lost soul that showed up here about 5 years ago...."Me" LOL!

Funny part for me here though was while I was raised with stickbows?...I had become quite the accomplished archer as a state ranked NFAA fingers/compound BHFSL competitor between the mid 80's and early 90's...but despite my mid-life crisis with competitive compounds?...I always had a recurve of one sort or another laying about...to play with and reminisce of the good old days back when I could take every 3rd rabbit and successfully wing shoot about every 10th crow and even in and through my late 40's I managed to quietly rock the cradles of many a pesky bird feeder wrecking squirrel and rouge armadillo turning my yard into a minefield with my Bob Lee TD Hunter...as long as I could get within about 10yds of them...or less was always better! LOL!...I even once took an armadillo from machete distance! LOL!

But yep?...even up until about 2 years ago?...I fancied myself an instinctive archer...where today?...I cringe that I uploaded this vid of myself about 4 years ago trying to prove too the www just how effective my instinctive snap shooting skills were...






and here I was demonstrating just how effective my instinctive aiming skills were at 15yds while wielding a 54# bow....






and for a couple years afterwards?...I had no choice BUT to shoot like that due to an extremely acute case of Target Panic...but one fateful day?...I woke up and the left side of my body was paralyzed...I had suffered a stroke....took me 3 days to relearn how to "almost walk" again with the aid of hospital therapist and you know what else I had to relearn?...

*"Every Aspect of Shooting My Bow"*

Which is when I discovered a miraculous thing had happened...as I could now hold and aim at full draw....and this is how I shoot my bows today...from 30yds...






and this is how I shoot today from 50yds...(you'll see me stop at about 30yds ((to pick up my bow))..then step over a tree fall ((from hurricane Matthew))..and continue on until I'm but a fuzzy dot 50yds out...camera focused on a weed/leaf moving in the wind after I stepped away)....






and I fat fingered my camera so here's 50yds part II...






Now take into consideration that these following statements are coming from a reformed (and once dedicated) instinctive aiming snap shooter...

1. With ridiculous amounts of practice ingraining their shot?...an extremely dedicated instinctive snap shooter can become deadly out to about 15yds...but the magic ends there.

2. Archers who maintain solid form and execution but claim they aim instinctively?....can shoot real well out too 30yds...."SOMETIMES"

3. Archers who claim they don't "Consciously Aim"?....are in fact..."Subconsciously Gapping"

and finally?...I've come to find that...

*"Aiming Instinctively": is like daydreaming out the window while in class...where if you pay attention?...your test scores will go up and like your arrow?...you'll go a lot further in life and manage to hit your mark."*

or darn close too it! 

End of..."I Lived It"...With Much Thanks Too God...(and others here who suffered with and through me)....Rant...hope it helps! Bill.


----------



## olddogrib (Apr 4, 2014)

There's one way to find out...shoot the Classic next year.


----------



## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Using excuses to argue that you believe you could shoot arrows into the gold pretty consistently if only for physical illnesses, lack of enough interest or possession of elite equipment only serves to weaken your argument. It kind of reminds me of the guy sitting on the couch talking to his friends about how if he were playing football in the NFL, he could have made those catches the wide receivers missed... Being unimpressed with the elite BB archers at the Lancaster Classic seems a bit unreasonable and insulting to their incredible skills. But hey, maybe you're hard to impress. I don't know why it matters to you that instinctive archery should be able to compete at the highest levels in archery with SW'ing or gap shooting in some theoretical tournament/argument.


----------



## 3D Archery (May 19, 2016)

Okay, you stated this "I've gotten five out of six arrows in the gold from 15 yards. If I could do that consistently from 20 yards, I'd be pretty competitive". Sorry, but no you would not be competitive, at the national level. The margin for error is so small. I seen guys miss one and just go home knowing they no longer had a chance to win. 

Yes, GAP and String Walking is more accurate, but more importantly it is more consistent. That is what the vast majority of "Instinctive" archers lack, consistency. Yes, they can make that one good shoot, but can they do it three or five times in a row?


----------



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Arrowwood said:


> 2011 NFAA indoor nationals there was a self-described "instinctive" archer who shot 259 with 8 X and 264 13 X. Seventh place out of twelve, for whatever that's worth. The winner (men's traditional) shot 276 14 X, and 271 16 X.


I cant find the results on line, and am pretty sure Scott Bills won the mens trad in 2011 (I am old and memory is weak...LOL) but could have swore he shot a 280 something the first day? Don't hold me to it, but I thought it was 2011.


----------



## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

IMO, it depends on what your talking about shooting. If your shooting known distances at stationary targets, Id say a GOOD gap shooter will win most every time. If your shooting moving targets or unknown ranges, Id say a TRUE instinctive shot has the edge. I dont think there are a lot of true instinctive shooters out there tho. So hard to be consistent day after day.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

kegan said:


> History of the OP's posts aside, I think this is a great topic.
> 
> If we define instinctive as simply using no conscious reference to point the arrow, then I think instinctive can be almost, if not as accurate, as gapping and string walking at the close range shooting most of us do. The aiming technique itself is very similar to gap.
> 
> I've had the wonderful fortune to shoot with some really great archers, including Dewayne and John, as well as some folks who weren't so accurate. The biggest difference between the best and "the rest" seemed to be a very strong mental game and consistent form. The trouble with instinctive shooting is that it seems to encourage rebellion against strictness, which is what you need to really shoot well. There's a need to be machine-like in your physical and mental consistency. However, I don't believe that demand for strictness really caries over to aiming at the closer ranges that most of us shoot, if the shooters equipment is properly set up for it.


What he said...

For me, 'Instinctive' shooting seemed to really work well shooting the at relatively close distance, <20 yards, shooting that same distance over and over again, such that you kind of ingrained a sight picture. From 6-15 yards, for me it's kind of the same shot. However, if I shot 'Instinctive' for awhile at 20 yards, didn't think much about it, forgot to 'push it down', and stepped up to 10, I might accidentally send and arrow right over a foam back.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BOHO said:


> IMO, it depends on what your talking about shooting. If your shooting known distances at stationary targets, Id say a GOOD gap shooter will win most every time. If your shooting moving targets or unknown ranges, Id say a TRUE instinctive shot has the edge. I dont think there are a lot of true instinctive shooters out there tho. So hard to be consistent day after day.


I'd go so far to agree, sort of, in that if you're talking unmarked yardage, the explicit aiming system has less of an edge, because your subconscious adjustments to your elevation may be more trustworthy than your explicitly 'known' yardage estimate. I had a really tough time getting explicit gap methods working with unmarked tournaments, until I learned to let 'instinct' make adjustments, ultimately coming down to, "It looks more like a _____ kind of sight picture shot."


----------



## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> You really should make up your mind. In a previous post you said you used a "bit of a gap."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2: Brilliant!

The further I go down this road the more I despise the term "instinctive", "instinctive archers" (who mostly live on youtube) and anything neo-trad.

Here's how it seems:

1. Noisy "instinctive" shooters do very well on the internet where they can bang on about stumping and why they don't go to tournaments.

2. "Instinctive archers" are like the Vegans of shooting sports, as in "How do you know if there's a vegan in the room? Don't worry they'll tell you"

3. Good, accurate shooters who do not identify with specifically shooting gaps always have a very considered "system"

Good luck with your journey Mr Pearson, get yourself out there and shoot with some accomplished shots and experience………might be helpful to make up your mind than the internet


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Couple things popped into my head...

As in many things, if you're not impressed, it's often because you don't understand what you're watching.

Aiming systems don't beat aiming systems. 

Some shooters shoot better than others, for a variety of reasons, but the more experienced and educated most likely have collected a more extensive 'tool box' of knowledge and technique from which to draw.

An aiming system is an available technique tool, which an archer may elect to use, or not use, with any given shot. 

The chosen execution method for any single shot, or even a collection of them, does not define the archer, or the person.

The best 'instinctive' shooters I know, while they do not have a comprehensive explicit aiming system, have come to understand the relationship of their sight picture to distance, albeit in a loosely defined way, and know their point on distance, and certainly use the arrow for aiming, in terms of setting windage. In high variability, unmarked 3d shoots, such as Rancho Neblina or Chamberlain Ranch, they can give the better gap shooters a run for their money (not because of their aiming method, but because they tend to do a lot of unmarked shooting and are better at subconsciously estimating distance). When it comes to known distance shooting (a.k.a., hunting known grounds, or with a range finder (and yes, I've actually done that, and so do other responsible hunters)), while I still hold them in great esteem, no they couldn't hang with the better shooters who have explicit aiming systems.


----------



## dominator (Jan 2, 2004)

I never understand how anyone who shoots a bunch of arrows at a known distance over and over again (practice) is shooting instinctively. Your arrow is in your peripheral vision, and I don't think you could avoid memorizing the gap that works for that distance even if you tried. Thus what many believe is instinctive has become gap shooting over time as long as the distance is known. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

rsarns said:


> I cant find the results on line, and am pretty sure Scott Bills won the mens trad in 2011 (I am old and memory is weak...LOL) but could have swore he shot a 280 something the first day? Don't hold me to it, but I thought it was 2011.


Your memory is pretty good from what I can see - "Scooter" did win in 2011, but it was the next year (2012) that he shot 281 22X first day.

The older results are still on the old NFAA site, believe it or not:

http://www.fieldarchery.com/tournaments/IndoorNationals/results.cfm


----------



## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Well I am 62 and have arthritis in my old bones but I do shoot gap and can keep them all in the gold at 20 yards no problem.







Sorry I couldn't help my self, Had a really good day at the range today and an feeling good. Shot a 433 NFAA field round shooting NFAA trad rec setup.


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Can instinctive compete with gapping and stringwalking? Yes. At unmarked one arrow shoots. Been there done that


----------



## dominator (Jan 2, 2004)

Exactly 2413gary.


----------



## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Robot like form wins at a fixed distance with a fixed target. Most people can learn how to make shoot a foul shot.


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> Well I am 62 and have arthritis in my old bones but I do shoot gap and can keep them all in the gold at 20 yards no problem.
> View attachment 5447930
> 
> Sorry I couldn't help my self, Had a really good day at the range today and an feeling good. Shot a 433 NFAA field round shooting NFAA trad rec setup.


Great shooting!

Ole Ben reminds me of some non golfing people I have known who after drinking 10 beers, go to a driving range and bang 100 balls out there with a driver and then try to tell me they could probably really play golf well based on that experience.


----------



## fieldnfeathers (Nov 7, 2013)

reddogge said:


> Great shooting!
> 
> Ole Ben reminds me of some non golfing people I have known who after drinking 10 beers, go to a driving range and bang 100 balls out there with a driver and then try to tell me they could probably really play golf well based on that experience.


LOL. Yea, I play against them frequently in scratch league. More proof that it's the Indian, not the arrow.


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

*Correct *answer to the OP's question: not very.

Proof of this is simply to look at NFAA championship scores from 1958 through 1964.

What you will see is a significant increase in field target scoring. 1958 was the last year a truly instinctive archer won it all. In 1959 Fred Simmons, Jr.. won it using varying wood grain colors planed to correspond with various shooting distances on the belly of his bow. This was subsequently outlawed, but we archers are an ingenious bunch. By 1964, Cliff Necessary had perfected string walking, and his scores were approaching the pinshooters.

Guys like Jim Byrd and Lon Stanton (the Old Man of the Ozarks) never had a chance shooting the old fashioned way.


----------



## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Ben, you should be proud. You instinctively do things on here that I've never seen a gapper or stringwalker do.

Bowmania


----------



## fieldnfeathers (Nov 7, 2013)

bowmania said:


> ben, you should be proud. You instinctively do things on here that i've never seen a gapper or stringwalker do.
> 
> Bowmania


lol


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Ben Pearson said:


> .... Jeez, it's like talking to my oldest brother.
> ....
> .


I think he just complimented us....


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It must be cabin fever. I know that's what I've got going on. LOL


----------



## PHo (Jan 15, 2017)

2413gary said:


> Can instinctive compete with gapping and stringwalking? Yes. At unmarked one arrow shoots. Been there done that


This^


----------



## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

It is one of those depends answers. I cannot. But I believe that there are people out there somewhere that, or were historically, that could shoot as well instinctively as any other aiming technique, including sights. At some distances.

So, if you have the natural ability, and some amount of practice, I think you could be competitive at reasonable ranges. Like 20 meters. Especially at local target shoots. I have actually won one locally, came in third at one, and when shooting with the guys with compound, consistently come in last. But I have hope that I will eventually come in higher than that. They only shoot out to 30 yards.


----------



## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Well, there is a lot of bull-oney above. I aim instinctively out to about 45 yards, and gap thereafter, and have won many championships, state, regional and national. Steve Morley and Larry Yien have each won four world championships and have described themselves as instinctive or mostly so at similar distances. Children and newcomers learn it easily, properly taught. Surveys have shown that most archers prefer it, certainly most hunters do.

For target purposes there is some confusion in that most top hands are familiar with all the main aiming systems and may slide from one to the other without even being aware of it.

If I wanted to play just one target game, to 20 or 33 yards, I could change my tackle and aiming system to specialize at it and would probably use gap or point of aim. I might even string walk. No, I wouldn't string walk; too wierd. But I don't want to specialize. I want to be an all around good archer. So I'll stick with my methods. - lbg


----------



## UbiKaNoobi (Oct 24, 2014)

I do find it telling how many people get defensive. And go on the attack when the word instinctive is mentioned on these forums. The original post was simply asking if it would be possible to be able to compete if he dedicated the time in his chosen aiming method. Not trying to insult people who chose a different aiming method. Or stating that his chosen method is better than any other. 

It seems members on this forum love to use words like instinctive in a derogatory way. Or terms like trad police and neo-trad. To me it just looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. And I can only guess it's because you have most likely tried shooting instinctive in the past. But could not make it work for you. And that's fine, but that does not mean others can't. I think people should try and be a little more respect full of each other. And drop the tribalism nonsense. It just makes you look childish and insecure.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

UbiKaNoobi said:


> I do find it telling how many people get defensive. And go on the attack when the word instinctive is mentioned on these forums. The original post was simply asking if it would be possible to be able to compete if he dedicated the time in his chosen aiming method. Not trying to insult people who chose a different aiming method. Or stating that his chosen method is better than any other.
> 
> It seems members on this forum love to use words like instinctive in a derogatory way. Or terms like trad police and neo-trad. To me it just looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. And I can only guess it's because you have most likely tried shooting instinctive in the past. But could not make it work for you. And that's fine, but that does not mean others can't. I think people should try and be a little more respect full of each other. And drop the tribalism nonsense. It just makes you look childish and insecure.


The backlash on this thread is more towards the OP, who's been getting his kicks lately trolling this forum, than instinctive shooting.


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

UbiKaNoobi said:


> I do find it telling how many people get defensive. And go on the attack when the word instinctive is mentioned on these forums. The original post was simply asking if it would be possible to be able to compete if he dedicated the time in his chosen aiming method. Not trying to insult people who chose a different aiming method. Or stating that his chosen method is better than any other.
> 
> It seems members on this forum love to use words like instinctive in a derogatory way. Or terms like trad police and neo-trad. To me it just looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. And I can only guess it's because you have most likely tried shooting instinctive in the past. But could not make it work for you. And that's fine, but that does not mean others can't. I think people should try and be a little more respect full of each other. And drop the tribalism nonsense. It just makes you look childish and insecure.


You haven't been following the various posts of the OP recently. He DOES insult other methods of aiming like string walking and gap shooting and very vehemently. He shows no respect for some of the people who post on here who are world champions and fine competitors and gentlemen. So do your homework before criticizing us.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Last night I sent 5 arrows into the 10 ring of my delta hog from 25yds from cold out of the house using my 585gr/13GPP arrows off my 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter and one was a bare shaft and ya know what?....

I can't recall how I aimed or even if I aimed at all. :laugh:

What's that tell you Benjamin Pearson? LOL!!!


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

reddogge said:


> Great shooting!
> 
> Ole Ben reminds me of some non golfing people I have known who after drinking 10 beers, go to a driving range and bang 100 balls out there with a driver and then try to tell me they could probably really play golf well based on that experience.


hahaha I laughed because I am member of a country club and know what exactly what you're talking about....im a scratch golfer and a lot folks talk a big game until a little pressure is put on them, ive won a lot of money just sitting back, being quiet, and letting my game to the talking....a lot of folks who talk about how good they are or how good they can be are usually full of themselves and have no clue what they're talking about


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

doesn't Ben remind you of that guy who comes around every so often, trolls, defies all sensible logic, questions everyones credibility, never posts again in his own thread and is called out, leaves for awhile and comes back?


----------



## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

Ben Pearson said:


> I can sense some of you already getting your shorts in a bind. I'm not attacking gapping or sting walking. But that isn't what I like to do, I like to do is instinctive. Seems like I should be able to put up a post about instinctive without one of you guys getting all defensive. Jeez, it's like talking to my oldest brother.
> I accept that string walking and gap shooting are more accurate. That isn't the point. I don't want to get good at string walking or gap shooting, I want to get good at instinctive. I'd rather put an angry ferret down my pants than string walk. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.
> So the question is, could a good instinctive shooter place high in a trad tournament? I was watching the trad shooters at the Lancaster Classic, and they were good. Far better than me, but I wasn't that impressed. If I weren't blind, hadn't messed up my left elbow and right shoulder last winter, made archery more of a priority (right now it's behind cycling, mountain climbing, hiking, backpacking, canoeing, and sex. Not necessarily in that order) and invested in really top notch equipment, I think I could get arrows in the gold pretty consistently. In a few months of pistol shooting, I went from having a hard time hitting a ten inch frying pan at 50 ft, to being able to hit it at 100 yards. I'm pretty sure, if I weren't 63 years old and falling apart, I could hit the gold center at 20 yards pretty frequently. Even now, with my Olympic recurve, I've gotten five out of six arrows in the gold from 15 yards. If I could do that consistently from 20 yards, I'd be pretty competitive. There must be instinctive archers out there that can do that. I've seen some pretty amazing shots on the internet.


My personal best shooting "instinctive" is 294. Typical outing is 288-292 on a 18m/20 yard NFAA one spot target. To shoot that level required almost daily practice of 200 arrows or more. Now the reality of the situation becomes obviously apparent. Although not consciously gapping the required repetition to shoot at that Level is anything but instinctive. Through that repetition the brain learns how to subconsciously position the picture the eyes see to aim the arrow while the conscious mind is focused on the impact spot. Reality finally sets in and instinctive shooting is not instinctive shooting at all. We all have learned the parabolic flight of a projectile as a fact of life. Now take all the learning required to shoot 290 indoors and put it on a #D course where you are expected to hit the 10 ring on a Hen turkey at 30 yards in varying light conditions in the wind. After many, many arrows of instinctive practice you'll finally realize a reasonable amount of success, which will not do you a bit of good on the next target a 50 yard deer target, a NFAA or NIAA field course or a 900 FITA course unless you practice ,practice and practice to "instinctively" aim the bow. As hill says there is no such thing as instinctive shooting. Add to that that those who wish to turn off the brain and shoot instinctively and the accuracy of that performance is contained in the work. STINC and I mean P.U. Do not be afraid to learn a gap system your doing it anyway. You'll pull more arrows form the center of the target and loose or destroy a lot less arrows on the 3D course. As for string walking, well it is just not for me.


----------



## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

On unmarked short range 3D it can be anybodies game in regard to aiming method, on marked Field rounds the Gappers and SW's have a big advantage. My experience of both Gapping and SW is with the SW I can match my best Gap scores 15-20 times a year where those best Gap scores only came once or twice a year.

A good friend of mine who shoots Instinctive (I gapped at the time) we we're very tight on a WA3D course, he visited me at our IFAA 3 day Field champs and I shot a 100 points a day more, Nothing to do with him, just Instinct isn't best suited for those rounds.


----------



## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Correction on Longbow guy, I haven't won 4 world titles (still work in progress ) I've won 2 world and 2 European titles in Field and 3D.

I started off as an Instinctive shot and won some National titles (unmarked) but when I started shooting Field I was left behind and adopted Gap, I kinda blended the two and used whatever aiming method it took to get me on target. I'm my opinion very few can shoot Instinctively well, it takes huge dedication to maintain such a high skill level, those that can shoot Instinctively well have my respect.:thumbs_up


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Last night I sent 5 arrows into the 10 ring of my delta hog from 25yds from cold out of the house using my 585gr/13GPP arrows off my 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter and one was a bare shaft and ya know what?....
> 
> I can't recall how I aimed or even if I aimed at all. :laugh:
> 
> What's that tell you Benjamin Pearson? LOL!!!


Maybe you're a dirty rotten gapper!


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

reddogge said:


> Maybe you're a dirty rotten gapper!


Isn't everyone?

Whether they KNOW IT or?...NOT? :laugh:


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

At least your aren't a dirty rotten string walker.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

reddogge said:


> At least your aren't a dirty rotten string walker.


Amen!....I call 911 on those types and turn them in for "Bow Abuse" :laugh:


----------



## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Does Ben remind anyone of OSB??? Different, but the same!!!

Back to the question. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMPETEING AND WINNING.

I've had two different friends that were truly great instinctive shooters until TP took over.

Bowmania


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Last night I sent 5 arrows into the 10 ring of my delta hog from 25yds from cold out of the house using my 585gr/13GPP arrows off my 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter and one was a bare shaft and ya know what?....
> 
> I can't recall how I aimed or even if I aimed at all. :laugh:
> 
> What's that tell you Benjamin Pearson? LOL!!!


That it's time for you to start turning in score cards.


----------



## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

With all the feeding of Ben in all of his threads, the troll must be rather obese by now.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Bowmania said:


> Does Ben remind anyone of OSB??? Different, but the same!!!
> 
> Back to the question. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMPETEING AND WINNING.
> 
> ...



Ken was very different imho


----------

