# NFAA Problems ?



## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Spock once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." The NFAA however seems to change the rules to benefit the few or the one. That is why there are so many classes and age groups. Winning at the Nationals has become a joke. I could have won a silver bow by simply picking a class with no one else in it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

So, item one is that there are too many classes. How does that contribute to the decline in participation?


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

carlosii said:


> I wonder if there is someone who can enumerate, point by point, what are generally considered the problems that NFAA needs to address in order to re-energize the sport.


The NFAA is organized like a representative government, and not a dictatorship. 48ish Directors/people (some States don't participate) decide things based on what their state membership wants (if the sate's members care to comment). These 48ish people get together once a year to change, expand, and whatever things.

That, is IMO the biggest problem there is, but also exactly how it is designed to be administered.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

carlosii said:


> So, item one is that there are too many classes. How does that contribute to the decline in participation?


In my humble opinion, people no longer value a silver bowl like they used to because you certainly don't have to work too hard to get one anymore, in most classes. There is not that much pride in being an Nfaa champion with all the watering down that has gone on. I quit attending because the Nfaa outdoor nationals seem more blase than some of our bigger shoots in the West.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

some state reps vote the way THEY want, not the way of the membership they represent.

without accountability, no one cares what the little people want.

some of THE worst votes were cast in secret squirrel 'emergency re-vote' manner. who were the ones that voted AGAINST arrow sizes under 27series AFTER it was voted FOR a restriction of 25series to be even with the 3d orgs? the world may never know.

of course, i stopped being a member so the cool kids get to beat up on me now.


i love the game just cant stomache the games.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> some state reps vote the way THEY want, not the way of the membership they represent.
> 
> without accountability, no one cares what the little people want.
> 
> ...


Have your director to always ask for a role call vote on every thing that comes up on the floor


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

> In my humble opinion, people no longer value a silver bowl like they used to because you certainly don't have to work too hard to get one anymore, in most classes. There is not that much pride in being an Nfaa champion with all the watering down that has gone on. I quit attending because the Nfaa outdoor nationals seem more blase than some of our bigger shoots in the West.


This !!


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

itbeso said:


> In my humble opinion, people no longer value a silver bowl like they used to because you certainly don't have to work too hard to get one anymore, in most classes. There is not that much pride in being an Nfaa champion with all the watering down that has gone on. I quit attending because the NFAA outdoor nationals seem more blase than some of our bigger shoots in the West.


I don't think the problem is simply too many classes, it IS a lack of publicity and "hype". 

If the NFAA put as much effort into the Outdoor Nationals as they do for Vegas, we'd be back to having 600-800 people attending, and multiple flights in most of the divisions. Then there would be plenty prestige in winning a bowl.

I have six bowls, and I'm proud of every one of them. I had to travel, have my equipment and myself in operating condition, and shoot five days (or just three recently) and beat anyone else who registered in my style!

The first Nationals I attended (1982) I finished the BOTTOM of the Championship flight in BHFSL (yes, that almost non-existent fingers style) and was happy to be there, because I wasn't in SECOND flight.

We need more PEOPLE, and that means we ALL need to spread the word about what a great game Field in, and how much fun we had at Nationals, and back off the grousing a little. I think we are our own worst enemies by talking about the 80-yard shot and 112 arrows and 6+ hour rounds, and we scare people away.

We need some super-stars and good spokesmen (and women) to take our place ahead of 3D and FITA shooting. They get lots of promotion, and such a low percentage of archers even know Field exists.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

:set1_applaud: Well said Linda!


wa-prez said:


> I don't think the problem is simply too many classes, it IS a lack of publicity and "hype".
> 
> If the NFAA put as much effort into the Outdoor Nationals as they do for Vegas, we'd be back to having 600-800 people attending, and multiple flights in most of the divisions. Then there would be plenty prestige in winning a bowl.
> 
> ...


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

'Public Relations' consists of finding informational outlets to get the word out and also getting information in.

that would be in the responsibilities of the NFAA Vice-President according to the C/BL as of the last printing of the C/BL


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

why is archery growing so fast but the NFAA is not.the MSAA i belong to in Minnesota is growing we have over 1,000 state indoor shooters now every year but we are not a member of the NFAA with these good old boys rules .but there is a very small Minnesota state archery group called MAA that does belong with the NFAA they have around 75 people at their state indoor. 1,000 indoor shooter`s vs 75 shooter`s ? so can you see what some of the problems are ? something must be amuck as one person wrote in a post.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Pete53 said:


> why is archery growing so fast but the NFAA is not.the MSAA i belong to in Minnesota is growing we have over 1,000 state indoor shooters now every year but we are not a member of the NFAA with these good old boys rules .but there is a very small Minnesota state archery group called MAA that does belong with the NFAA they have around 75 people at their state indoor. 1,000 indoor shooter`s vs 75 shooter`s ? so can you see what some of the problems are ? something must be amuck as one person wrote in a post.


Maybe the 1000 don't want to see their $$$ go to an outside entity that is not accountable to them. All the money going to NFAA does not stay in the state where the archers reside. Seems a little lopsided that more money goes to the NFAA than to the states where it is needed to grow the archer base. And I doubt that will ever change. Many may feel "$35 goes to the NFAA but what has the NFAA done for me"? A magazine? National shoots that are too far away to attend? Etc...


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i think the members of the MSAA which is more like 2,000 and out of those member`s 1,000 indoor state scores are shot now each year,some would consider rejoining the NFAA but common sense has to be part of this and not force all to join. if 200 or more out of the 2,000 joined that`s better than none.that NFAA 100% is a very foolish rule and should be change, i really think it hurts both sides and the future of archery.Pete53


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wa-prez said:


> I don't think the problem is simply too many classes, it IS a lack of publicity and "hype".
> 
> If the NFAA put as much effort into the Outdoor Nationals as they do for Vegas, we'd be back to having 600-800 people attending, and multiple flights in most of the divisions. .


Can't buy this. Vegas is a open event. No membership required.
Out state once had a Open 3D Championship. Yep, open to the public. More often than not it was the highest attended IAA event, but mostly made up of non-NFAA members. Before the 3D Championship was eliminated only a average of 30 to 35 NFAA members attended it. Contestant numbers for a event ran from around 100 to the highest of 215. I kept records....


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Pete53 said:


> i think the members of the MSAA which is more like 2,000 and out of those member`s 1,000 indoor state scores are shot now each year,some would consider rejoining the NFAA but common sense has to be part of this and not force all to join. if 200 or more out of the 2,000 joined that`s better than none.that NFAA 100% is a very foolish rule and should be change, i really think it hurts both sides and the future of archery.Pete53[/QUerOTE]
> 
> so the problem is that you have to be an NFAA member to shoot state shoots that are NFAA sanctioned? am i understanding that right? and that's a problem for some folks?
> 
> if you want to compete in an ASA pro am you have to be a member if you want to shoot for the money.


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

Here in Michigan if we are going to a member of the Michigan archers association you have to be a member of both the MAA and the NFAA. We did try it for a few years to where you didn't have to belong to the NFAA and our membership was about the same either way


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Pete do you have to be a MSAA member to shoot for awards at these state tournaments?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

With exception to a specified State NFAA event all other events require NFAA membership to compete for awards. Like the IAA, we once had our 3D Championship open to the public. All other events, Indoor, Outdoor, and Field you had to be a NFAA members. Not forgetting, a non-member could shoot as a Guest - no awards.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Sonny I know the rules for NFAA competion, my question to Pete was due to the fact that the MSAA is not the NFAA state organization, does anyone know the membership requirements for the organization I have asked about


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

wa-prez said:


> I don't think the problem is simply too many classes, it IS a lack of publicity and "hype".
> 
> If the NFAA put as much effort into the Outdoor Nationals as they do for Vegas, we'd be back to having 600-800 people attending, and multiple flights in most of the divisions. Then there would be plenty prestige in winning a bowl.
> 
> ...


Why do we thw people need to spread the word, Linda? The Nfaa should be the one promoting field archery and its participants rather than promoting the officers of the Nfaa. In every other sport I am aware of, the focus is on the athletes, not on the officers that work behind the scenes. I also have a few silver bowls that I am proud of but they were won in an era where there were constantly 2-3 flights within my division rather than 2-3 people. The problem is DEFINITELY too many classes but until the Nfaa and its officers find the cajones to address this problem, there will continue to be a downhill spiral.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

the rules are written in a language that confuses.

the rules need to be 'people-ized'. written in such a way that ANYONE can pick it up, read it, shake their head and say 'got it' instead of 'huh?'


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

rock monkey said:


> the rules are written in a language that confuses.
> 
> the rules need to be 'people-ized'. written in such a way that ANYONE can pick it up, read it, shake their head and say 'got it' instead of 'huh?'


thank you.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Why do we thw people need to spread the word, Linda? The Nfaa should be the one promoting field archery and its participants rather than promoting the officers of the Nfaa. In every other sport I am aware of, the focus is on the athletes, not on the officers that work behind the scenes. I also have a few silver bowls that I am proud of but they were won in an era where there were constantly 2-3 flights within my division rather than 2-3 people. The problem is DEFINITELY too many classes but until the Nfaa and its officers find the cajones to address this problem, there will continue to be a downhill spiral.


U B right in some cases, but It used to be that it was the clubs that formed the basis of the advertising . I don'y think that is happening much any more.
To many clubs are more interested in 3D than field. 
Just my $2.00


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

when i go to a state shoot and pay $25 to shoot, how much stays with the state and how much goes to the national office?


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> i think the members of the MSAA which is more like 2,000 and out of those member`s 1,000 indoor state scores are shot now each year,some would consider rejoining the NFAA but common sense has to be part of this and not force all to join. if 200 or more out of the 2,000 joined that`s better than none.that NFAA 100% is a very foolish rule and should be change, i really think it hurts both sides and the future of archery.Pete53


 Pete, NFAA is no different than a club. if you want to belong to a club, you follow their rules.
If the MSAA were smart,they would all join the NFAA, & be a controlling factor like CA. is . Instead of having one vote, if you brought those 2000 members over you would have 4 votes. You could change a lot of things. I don't know what went down at your big meeting, but maybe things can still be worked out. everyone wants to know what has the NFAA done for them. For one thing they gave you the very games that you all enjoy with out having to be a part of .
What has everyone done for the NFAA should be the question. It is all part of supporting the parent organization. I have always said it is the $35.00 that separates them. Bet you that if the dues were suspended they would join. In all my 50 years in archery, all I have heard is that I don't go to Nationals or sectionals, so why should I join? 
There are so many programs offered, that most people haven't a clue as to how many. With your 4 votes, you could evan come up with more.

Some states don't like to be told what to do, I say don't join & go an start your own games & rules. 
If you partake of the NFAA system,I say join it 
Just my rant & rave


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

archer_nm said:


> Sonny I know the rules for NFAA competion, my question to Pete was due to the fact that the MSAA is not the NFAA state organization, does anyone know the membership requirements for the organization I have asked about


 Bob, You can bet your bippy that they would have to be a member of that organization.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

carlosii said:


> when i go to a state shoot and pay $25 to shoot, how much stays with the state and how much goes to the national office?


In NJ , none goes to the NFAA when we have our state championships. We buy state championship patches. 
At a sectional shoot the host club gets 50% of the gate & the awards,targets, & score cards come out of the NFAA's end.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> the rules are written in a language that confuses.
> 
> the rules need to be 'people-ized'. written in such a way that ANYONE can pick it up, read it, shake their head and say 'got it' instead of 'huh?'


You may be right, but have you ever tried to write a rule ? I have written many of the rules for the NFAA, & in my mind they were so simple to understand. However, they were not that simple when they hit the floor.
No mater how you write them some one will interpret them as it benefits them. That;s why we have the RIC . If rules were simple ,you wouldn't need them.

Same thing with civil laws. That's why there are judges & courts.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

carlosii said:


> When I go to a state shoot and pay $25 to shoot, how much stays with the state and how much goes to the national office?


For a State Championship shoot, 100% stays within your state - usually split with the host club. The state doesn't send any of that to National unless they buy their awards from National for the event.

For Sectional Championships, 1/2 stays with the host Club and 1/2 the registration is sent to NFAA. And NFAA provides the scorecards and the awards. The Sectional Tournament accuonting sheet is available on the NFAA website, in the "Resources" section.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Why do we the people need to spread the word? The NFAA should be the one promoting field archery and its participants rather than promoting the officers of the NFAA.


Some of the people seem to forget we ARE the NFAA. National headquarters has very few paid staff (a few more now that they run the archery center, but that is a separate issue). We've got a President and Vice President (and I don't even know if THEY are paid). There are a few people in the office that handle membership, charters, tournament registrations, event planning, and various paperwork. The Councilmen (one from each Section) and Directors (one from each State) form part of the communications pathway up and down the chain. The Directors serve without pay.

If we want anything changed, or want something done, we need to tell our Director! Or volunteer to become your state's Director, or to take on a task!

Clubs, State Associations, National Association, it is all us people.

So, I'm thinking of asking my Director to put in a resolution to ask for a publicity campaign. Maybe "Back to our Roots" or "Field is our strong root" .


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Bob, You can bet your bippy that they would have to be a member of that organization.


Mike I really knew the answer, I was looking for certain type of response from the state with 2000 members. You gave them the best reason to join but I am afraid it will fall on deaf ears, thanks for your input.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

wa-prez said:


> Some of the people seem to forget we ARE the NFAA. National headquarters has very few paid staff (a few more now that they run the archery center, but that is a separate issue). We've got a President and Vice President (and I don't even know if THEY are paid). There are a few people in the office that handle membership, charters, tournament registrations, event planning, and various paperwork. The Councilmen (one from each Section) and Directors (one from each State) form part of the communications pathway up and down the chain. The Directors serve without pay.
> 
> If we want anything changed, or want something done, we need to tell our Director! Or volunteer to become your state's Director, or to take on a task!
> 
> ...


Sorry Linda, but with 50 state directors deciding our fate, we have ended up with the mess we have. The system of making rules, determining how many classes, going after new members, etc. has to change. You can't have the inmates making their own rules.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> Some of the people seem to forget we ARE the NFAA. National headquarters has very few paid staff (a few more now that they run the archery center, but that is a separate issue). We've got a President and Vice President (and I don't even know if THEY are paid). There are a few people in the office that handle membership, charters, tournament registrations, event planning, and various paperwork. The Councilmen (one from each Section) and Directors (one from each State) form part of the communications pathway up and down the chain. The Directors serve without pay.
> 
> If we want anything changed, or want something done, we need to tell our Director! Or volunteer to become your state's Director, or to take on a task!
> 
> ...


from the 2013/2014 C/BL

page 14, paragraph 2

*ARTICLE V 
Duties of Officers and the Executive Secretary 
*
_Vice-President: 
2.1 The Vice-President shall serve as a member of the NFAA Council. 
2.2 Perform the duties of the President if the President is unable to act. 
*2.3 Coordinate public relations of the NFAA. 
*_


can someone remind me what else is being made public other than the Vegas (not an NFAA function btw) and Indoor Nats on the web?

why no blindly usps mailed flyers/posters/announcements sent to shops/ranges/clubs?
why no links or banner ads bought on archery websites/forums?
why no mass e-mailings/social media ad campaigns?


for the LONGEST time, the NFAA had a banner ad here, for what? ATLANTIC CITY. i may be wrong (or crazy) but isnt disseminating and keeping ad campaigns current and relevant part of paragraph 2.3 of the Duties and Responsibilities?

why was the NFAA website not under NFAA control until just very recently?



it seems more like the NFAA is more about wanting revenue generated for sites and businesses showing the NFAA logo via royalties and less about being active with promotions and advertising.

it's a pathetic shame that the NFAA was no where to be actively found during the first season of Nock Out *EXCEPT* for the shooter bio captions and Chuck's info segment. SHAME ON YOU, NFAA for blowing a FANTASTIC CHANCE to advertise.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

wa-prez said:


> For a State Championship shoot, 100% stays within your state - usually split with the host club. The state doesn't send any of that to National unless they buy their awards from National for the event.
> 
> For Sectional Championships, 1/2 stays with the host Club and 1/2 the registration is sent to NFAA. And NFAA provides the scorecards and the awards. The Sectional Tournament accuonting sheet is available on the NFAA website, in the "Resources" section.


Thanks. Appreciate the response.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

to shoot msaa classes you do have to be a member of the msaa, we do have one quest class no awards ,you do have to shoot a regional score for the class you shoot in at one of the sites in minnesota ,we do get to keep all the money, we do not belong to the nfaa. some of us do belong to the nfaa on our own thru the maa.we do always have at least 1,000 shooter`s that state msaa weekend ,personally i do wish we did belong somehow with the nfaa but not all feel that way.having two state organizations just makes it hard to shoot all those weekends.msaa with 1,000 shooter`s for the weekend verses maa with 75 shooter`s and you have to pick a weekend, mostly because its a family thing ,we here in minnesota are going to go with the MSAA just more people more fun. and it is one very large indoor shoot that you don`t have to drive 500 miles too.so to me for the good of archery in minnesota we do really need only one state organization and stop all the past bickering but the NFAA needs to change some rules too for the good of archery.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Pete what rules do you think need to be changed, please keep "not being a member" off the table, since the MSAA requires the same.
I am talking about rules to improve membership


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> Some of the people seem to forget we ARE the NFAA. National headquarters has very few paid staff (a few more now that they run the archery center, but that is a separate issue). We've got a President and Vice President (and I don't even know if THEY are paid). There are a few people in the office that handle membership, charters, tournament registrations, event planning, and various paperwork. The Councilmen (one from each Section) and Directors (one from each State) form part of the communications pathway up and down the chain. The Directors serve without pay.
> 
> If we want anything changed, or want something done, we need to tell our Director! Or volunteer to become your state's Director, or to take on a task!
> 
> ...



i remember a few years ago, we asked for just that........and we got yit on for it. gimme a few and i can dig it up for ya.


edit: found it

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1146979


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

the rule the nfaa needs to try to change .let all states that have a state archery association ,that any club that belongs to the state organization somehow if they want to be part of the NFAA that local club must have aleast 10 % of them must join the NFAA.i would bet that would help my state go down to one large state organization and the NFAA gain maybe 200-400 new members per state.in a free world you can not be that tuff on membership.myself i will still belong to the NFAA and i am a MSAA life member already.the main reason i bring this change up is only for the good of archery,it is not going to help me anyway. i really believe this would help archery and help the NFAA grow its membership,change can be good.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Pete as it now stands a club only has to have 5 head of household members to belong to the state organization that most of the time is less than 10%


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> the rule the nfaa needs to try to change .let all states that have a state archery association ,that any club that belongs to the state organization somehow if they want to be part of the NFAA that local club must have aleast 10 % of them must join the NFAA.i would bet that would help my state go down to one large state organization and the NFAA gain maybe 200-400 new members per state.in a free world you can not be that tuff on membership.myself i will still belong to the NFAA and i am a MSAA life member already.the main reason i bring this change up is only for the good of archery,it is not going to help me anyway. i really believe this would help archery and help the NFAA grow its membership,change can be good.


 Pete, what your asking for in your proposal, is for the club to decide who will be the 10 % sacrificial lambs so they could be part of the NFAA. 
you want to impose a mandate on the clubs just as the NFAA imposes their rules on the states.
The only thing that your state is complaing about is that you must provide only one indoor & one out door championship that all participants be NFAA members. You can have all the other shoots that you want. 
As it is now, you may have guests at the shoot, but for no awards. what awards are they talking about? I think it is NFAA awards. You probably could give your own door prizes for showing up. 

Pete, I really think this is all BS. Take a poll & ask every one why they don't join the NFAA. I guarantee you that the answer will be that "why should I join & spend $35.00 when I don't go to nationals or sectionals". I have asked that question for 50 years, & 95% gave me the same answer. 
It seems that if there is no immediate benefit to a person , that they will not part with the funds. They don't spend money to support an organization. 

Just my observations over all of my years


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

yes you may be right if you took a poll ,but does minnesota need two state archery organizations ,that answer with most target shooters is no.these shooter`s are tired of going to all these shoots and having to have to join two clubs,most of these target shooters want to belong to the NFAA including myself.so somehow here in minnesota we need to unite both state archery organizations, bury the hatchet and somehow allow some of us to belong to the NFAA.here in minnesota we need to somehow get this done and get rid of all this political crap !


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Pete give me an Amen


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> yes you may be right if you took a poll ,but does minnesota need two state archery organizations ,that answer with most target shooters is no.these shooter`s are tired of going to all these shoots and having to have to join two clubs,most of these target shooters want to belong to the NFAA including myself.so somehow here in minnesota we need to unite both state archery organizations, bury the hatchet and somehow allow some of us to belong to the NFAA.here in minnesota we need to somehow get this done and get rid of all this political crap !


Pete I know I'm right, but you are absolutely correct that Minn does not need 2 organizations so why don't the target shooters join the NFAA. First base .(a little Abbott & Costello here) Just like I said $35.00
If they want to join like you say, why don't they.
Just think if they all join ,you can have 4 votes to get rid of all this "political crap"


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i do wish it was that simple that the target archer`s could just do that,but i think that we must belong to a state club like the MAA with the NFAA which some do including myself.but i do not like belonging to two state clubs and most don`t either.so right now somehow it all needs to change back like it was in the past.if the MSAA,MAA and the NFAA all took a positive out look it could get done and that`s our problem some people are just too negative.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Just my opinion here, archery in general isn't a major sport to the public because no one can agree on making single rules. A 5 spot should be scored the way it is, a 3 spot Vegas face should be scored the way it is. 3d needs to get it together and pick one set of scoring rings and leave it that way. You can't have a respectable sport when people in Georgia (example only) have different rules than they do in Tennessee.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Forget the 10% required NFAA members per club. Ain't happenin'. Figure no less than 25% of all NFAA clubs dropping the NFAA if required membership was put into effect. Our club will celebrating it's 50th anniversary next year. We have Constitutions and By-Laws of all the years. At one time all members were required to be NFAA members. As time went by membership declined to the point we didn't have any members to speak of, Officers and Range Captions. Our Constitution was revised to lessen the number of NFAA members. It didn't go over. Our Constitution was overhauled. All said and done, 5 Officers would be selected to be NFAA members and their membership paid by the club. It remained this way until our Club membership expired in 2007. Reasons for dropping; Our club is a 3D club and the I.A.A. eliminated the 3D Championship. We can't host any other I.A.A. event as we have no indoor range and we aren't throwing away bunches of money on a Field range when no one shoots Field. Besides, required is a 28 lane Field range for Field. One club tried to get, keep or get Field going, but 15 shooters was just about average per month. I wouldn't open the gates for 15 shooters....

Now, for our club, during the period of 2003 thru 2006 only two club members competed in all NFAA events, me and one other. All others competed in the 3D Championship which was eliminated in 2006.
Another club, right next door, is both a NFAA and ASA club. It runs on ASA insurance and has two NFAA members who compete in NFAA events. If not for these two individuals the club would drop the NFAA altogether.
Another club to the North West of me is much the same, both a NFAA and ASA club. It hasn't held a NFAA event in quite some time. The last Field event held there was two showed up, me and a person who just wanted a place to shoot while he was on vacation. 

Illinois and NFAA membership dues total $60.00. I would guess it depends on how much you compete. We have 1 championship of each; Indoor, Outdoor, and Field. The Indoor Aggregates for each Zone leading up to the Championship are not required. Spring Openers for each Zone, usually Field Events, are not required. There is the Spring and Fall Rendezvous that are normally 3D events and have no value.

Vast are the number of 3D clubs in my area, 15 at least. There are 3 indoor ranges, one closed to only shop use and practice, within a hour's drive of my house. 3D is the biggest attendance of the other two indoor ranges. A few of the 3D clubs overlap shoot dates and effects attendance, but 35 to 40 for a low and has high as 200 for others. Our club averages 140 3D shooters per event. Our last 3D of the year this past weekend drew 170 shooters. 
field14 would have the information for indoor paper leagues for one indoor range. It's biggest Indoor target draw is the Presley's Indoor MidWest Open.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> i do wish it was that simple that the target archer`s could just do that,but i think that we must belong to a state club like the MAA with the NFAA which some do including myself.but i do not like belonging to two state clubs and most don`t either.so right now somehow it all needs to change back like it was in the past.if the MSAA,MAA and the NFAA all took a positive out look it could get done and that`s our problem some people are just too negative.


 Pete, from what you are saying, it isn't an NFAA problem ,it is your state that is making all of the mandates


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Pete53 said:


> i do wish it was that simple that the target archer`s could just do that,but i think that we must belong to a state club like the MAA with the NFAA which some do including myself.but i do not like belonging to two state clubs and most don`t either.so right now somehow it all needs to change back like it was in the past.if the MSAA,MAA and the NFAA all took a positive out look it could get done and that`s our problem some people are just too negative.





brtesite said:


> Pete, from what you are saying, it isn't an NFAA problem ,it is your state that is making all of the mandates


Yes, please expand. At loss here in Illinois as we just don't have spot shooters. Largest turn out at IAA event was the Indoor back in 2005, I believe. 91 competing.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Regarding the mandated membership I do know that with the insurance paid to the ASA the local club is provided ten ASA memberships. With the insurance being something on the order of $350, that's a pretty good deal. Maybe NFAA could look at something like that.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> Regarding the mandated membership I do know that with the insurance paid to the ASA the local club is provided ten ASA memberships. With the insurance being something on the order of $350, that's a pretty good deal. Maybe NFAA could look at something like that.


ASA membership and insurance program all covered as per the following;
10 members or 10 membership certificates - $30 per total $300.00
enrollment of club ------------------------------------- 50.00
Additionally insured ------------------------------------ 20.00
Total ------------------------------------------------- $370.00 
Hard to believe, but $370.00 does it all.
I believe it is stipulated that shooting yourself with a arrow is not covered.
And ASA insurance is good enough to host other sanctioning bodies.
Other; ASA insurance can be extended. For $20 for Additionally insured a club may add another range for ASA events. I had this for the 2nd Illiniois ASA Indoor DAIR Qualifier 2 or 3 years ago. I guess this is still in effect. I don't know if the NFAA does this.

Carlos, the last I understood the NFAA insurance goes farther as to unrelated to archery. Originally, it covered firearm sports, but, I guess, a uproar got rid of that. Now, if you run your ATV into someone's Cadillac, I guess you or the club is insured. Same with riding horses or whatever not related to archery.
Now, they also cover you hunting wise, like if you were to shoot some farmer's tractor tire or cow. I think it was/is good up to $5,000.00.

Personally, I'm at odds of why NFAA and State dues amounts to so much.... $60 for Illinois. For ASA, $30.
The ASA Director handles everything as far as scores for end of the year awards, SOY, (no cost to the state), paper work to the ASA and whatever else.... Clubs supply scores and paper work to the State Director and ASA headquarters, but all paper work is supplied by the ASA and only copies have to be made. Beings I had my own copier I didn't feel like charging our club for maybe 20 sheets of paper and no big deal either for mailing paper work. I did charge the club for mailing checks to those who placed and won, envelopes and stamps did add up.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

You guys are getting off course........

We should be able to agree on the following:
The NFAA is fundamentally flawed in structure and/or how it operates. Some state NFAA orgs have followed suit and are well beyond fundamentally flawed. No one involved with the NFAA wants the muck from just the last 8 years brought back up. Too many NFAA state organizations are very unappealing to a lot of folks. So let's move on and when I say this I'm not giving the NFAA leadership a pass!

Soooooooo............
The indoor spot game is the only NFAA game that has any value at this point and the ONLY tournament the NFAA has that is of any value is Indoor Nationals. Vegas is NOT an NFAA tournament, note the opening paragraph. The indoor sectionals is attractive in some regions but these events are held in multiple locations. The LAS Classic is a popular and fantastic indoor tournament and does not follow NFAA rules. The NFAA _could _have done something similar decades ago.

The typical field game has not been attractive to the archery public in _decades_. Not years but decades. It may make a come back but definitely not in the next decade. I like to look at all sides to an "issue" but I can't find an angle in which NFAA field archery competes with the ASA or the IBO. 

The NFAA or another entity needs to re-invent the field archery game if there is to be a viable field game. Create a new game or adapt a current field game to be more appealing to more archers. So what if it's not the old school NFAA field archery game! The popularity (attractiveness) of the old school field archery game is so weak now that it is well beyond being fixed by minor tweaking. Cutting or combining a class here and there is NOT going to put more folks on field courses. This is especially true in the areas where there is no longer a field course. 

- The NFAA or other entity should focus on the indoor spot game. The NFAA better get on the ball if it wants to continue to "own" this game or another entity may step in. The NFAA watched the 3D game grow sprout and chose to ignore it's potential. The indoor game is a good place to "catch" newbies.

- The NFAA or other entity should go to ASA tournaments and take notes. Use what has proven to work to develop a "new" field game.

- Be proactive. The ASA has made many changes and at least most have been very good.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> ASA membership and insurance program all covered as per the following;
> 10 members or 10 membership certificates - $30 per total $300.00
> enrollment of club ------------------------------------- 50.00
> Additionally insured ------------------------------------ 20.00
> ...


 Why blame the NFAA for such high dues. it is 35.00 the rest is the states charge. . In NJ it is 10.00 state dues. Th state makes it's money from the 50% split on the championships, & $1.00 per shooter on any card shooters during the year. If you have 15 shooter on sun, you send in 15.00 Yes it is on the honor system.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

what really happened in the past is not known by many and its not that honest what went on,but that was then this is now.most of us that are target shooter`s would just like to see one state archery organization the MSAA and somehow be able still to belong to the NFAA without belonging to another state club.the local club i belong too has insurance thru the NRA so that`s not the problem. also here in Minnesota winter indoor archery is growing alot because mostly we have snow 5 months of the year so its something to do and not get cold and its a family thing for most of us.also my club is building a new club house and a attached 40x96 indoor archery range heated,so if the NFAA somehow and the two state clubs MSAA and the MAA somehow need to work this out together.with a 1,000 state indoor shooters every year and growing here in Minnesota its kinda a big deal for us.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> You guys are getting off course........
> 
> We should be able to agree on the following:
> The NFAA is fundamentally flawed in structure and/or how it operates. Some state NFAA orgs have followed suit and are well beyond fundamentally flawed. No one involved with the NFAA wants the muck from just the last 8 years brought back up. Too many NFAA state organizations are very unappealing to a lot of folks. So let's move on and when I say this I'm not giving the NFAA leadership a pass!
> ...


There's a lot of sense in that, but I gotta parse it some...



Kstigall said:


> You guys are getting off course........


It's AT, you expect something different? :wink:



Kstigall said:


> We should be able to agree on the following:
> The NFAA is fundamentally flawed in structure and/or how it operates. *It was designed that way. Any organization modeled after a 'democratic government' is destined for problems...but I also agree to a certain extent* Some state NFAA orgs have followed suit and are well beyond fundamentally flawed. *Yep* No one involved with the NFAA wants the muck from just the last 8 years brought back up. *Yes and no.* Too many NFAA state organizations are very unappealing to a lot of folks. So let's move on and when I say this I'm not giving the NFAA leadership a pass!


But, there is also a general distrust of the Directors that they are losing too much power, control and influence over the direction of the NFAA. Just a couple of years ago there was a proposal to cede direction and control of the Pro Division to the Council. I think the intent of the agenda item was good, and do not think that it was intended to allow the Council to develop new games and rules for the Pro Division. (It could have though.) I think it was primarily intended to allow quicker resolution of issues solely endemic to the Pro Division. It could have been amended to specifically reflect this, but the mood of the Directors was going to prohibit that.

So yes, as long as the NFAA is controlled in a bottom up fashion, from 48ish directors who are supposed to represent the interests of their State members, there are going to be issues. No way around that unless the NFAA Const. is gutted, and a dictatorship of sorts is implemented...like the ASA. Not saying that is a bad or good idea...



Kstigall said:


> Soooooooo............The indoor spot game is the only NFAA game that has any value at this point and the ONLY tournament the NFAA has that is of any value is Indoor Nationals. Vegas is NOT an NFAA tournament, note the opening paragraph. The indoor sectionals is attractive in some regions but these events are held in multiple locations. The LAS Classic is a popular and fantastic indoor tournament and does not follow NFAA rules. The NFAA _could _have done something similar decades ago.


If 'value' is limited solely to money, there is no argument otherwise. If value includes opportunity introduction, and whatever other philosophical connotation can be applied, then I disagree. The NFAA is a non-profit (whatever that means anymore) and is intended to promote access to varying archery venues and opportunities. There has to be a 'value' associated with that, for all of them, though the 'return' on anything other than indoor (at least nationally) has not been good.



Kstigall said:


> The typical field game has not been attractive to the archery public in _decades_. Not years but decades. It may make a come back but definitely not in the next decade. I like to look at all sides to an "issue" but I can't find an angle in which NFAA field archery competes with the ASA or the IBO.
> 
> The NFAA or another entity needs to re-invent the field archery game if there is to be a viable field game. Create a new game or adapt a current field game to be more appealing to more archers. So what if it's not the old school NFAA field archery game! The popularity (attractiveness) of the old school field archery game is so weak now that it is well beyond being fixed by minor tweaking. Cutting or combining a class here and there is NOT going to put more folks on field courses. This is especially true in the areas where there is no longer a field course.


Yep...and I have heard just about every reason under the sun, and moon for the cause of the decline. There are so many reasons that I don't know that one 'general' cause for the decline can be identified and changed. Field is as much a thinking game as it is a shooting and execution game. (3-D shares these characteristics, if not exactly the same). Within and without archery, there has been a general decline in the populations willingness to engage in thinking, so not unexpected. :shade: Generally, and in conversations I have had with folks, they don't 'like' field because the rules are too complicated (agreed) and some of the required shots are 'silly'. Agree and disagree on the required shots. 3 of the biggest complaints I hear about the shots are the birdies, the 80 and the fans. The birdies are too close and don't resemble 'hunting' shots, especially the Hunter one-step forward. (Agreed, but they also allow you to get really familiar with your equipment.) The 80 is too far, and not a hunting shot 'I' will take. (standard0. The fans...well no one new to the game, and a lot of folks experienced with the game, think they're silly. (To a degree I agree). But there are also nuances with the fans that are critical to shooting them, that go back to over-all familiarity with the equipment...depending on how fanned the fans are.

Where a I going with this...the people new to the game that I have talked too about the issues, are hunters first, and are shooting field courses with that purpose in mind. So the rules are a pain, and they ain't really concerned with X counts 5 rings or total scores. A lot of them are doing it on their own. But, when shooting with these people and explaining the best way I can, they generally get it, and end up enjoying the heck out of it...even if a cheat sheet is necessary. They ain't likely to pass up a 3-D shoot (regardless of the rules or shot distances) to shoot field though.

Simplifying the rules, making it a more user friendly activity and promoting it beyond a 'target' oriented venue...well, yeah, that would appear to be a good thing, and more needs to be done.



Kstigall said:


> The NFAA or other entity should focus on the indoor spot game. The NFAA better get on the ball if it wants to continue to "own" this game or another entity may step in. The NFAA watched the 3D game grow sprout and chose to ignore it's potential. The indoor game is a good place to "catch" newbies.


No problem with focusing on the indoor game, but the focus should not be so myopic that the forest is lost...IMO. As to the rest...Yep.



Kstigall said:


> The NFAA or other entity should go to ASA tournaments and take notes. Use what has proven to work to develop a "new" field game.
> 
> - Be proactive. The ASA has made many changes and at least most have been very good.


Sure. I don't think that it should be just limited to the ASA or archery in general though. Take a look at what has made bowling, cards, curling (minus the beer and nutt'n else to do in the middle of winter aspects) and any other 'non-traditional' sport attractive, and modify it to your use, whether it is the NFAA, ASA, IBO, or whatever org there is.

So yep...a lotta sense there...the problem is moving it from theory to the practice, and there's a whole lotta hurdles potentially in the way of that...a circular discussion indeed. :darkbeer:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> You guys are getting off course........


Well, not exactly. The NFAA lost a lot of clubs in our State when the 2005 Insurance Program went into effect. At one time we had 23 to 25 clubs. In a matter of two years or so we dropped to 15 clubs. You take clubs out of the picture you lose shooters.

brtsite asked why blame a NFAA for high dues. High dues, $60 for us, and 3 Championships and all the rest of the state events have nothing to offer. If of the ASA, we have Qualifiers, 6 or more, that pay off and go towards State Shooter of the Year. And then we have the State 3D Championship that pays off in addition to recognizing top finishers and SOY.
And by the same issue, states are all different it seems. Last I heard our State Chapter, the IAA, recieves 25% or 30% of Gross intake after deductions and the club pays for all the Plaques and medals. The question here is, why does the state chapter need a cut of the action? I mean, they get X amount through due dollars. What does the state chapter do for any state sanctioned event? The host clubs puts on the event, not the state chapter. And then, who puts on the Vegas event and who helps set up and run the Vegas event? Non-paid State Directors and other volunteers. Our state chapter has donated money our State Director who helps at Vegas. 
So state structure is a issue.

You have though nailed it. How to make Field attractive. Good Luck. I would cut Field down as noted by another. Perhaps the 80 yard Walk Up needs removed entirely - 1 shot at 80, 1 shot at 70 and so on. If a 28 Field, then 2 shots each. Figure 60 and 50 is shot on other lanes. And perhaps the Bunny Round needs removed - 1 shot per the foot distance, 2 shots if a 28 Field.
A 28 Field, whether the die hards, like it or not, is a long game compared to a 30 target 3D and people are shooting 30 target 3Ds. So push for 14 lanes and remove the 80 and Bunny. This would still be 48 shots.

Capture newbies at Indoor events? Lost me, but then I know 3D shooters don't shoot indoor paper all that much. But then 3D shooters shoot 3D virtually every weekend during 3D season. I don't know if it would work or how many clubs could do this; Have a 20 yard outdoor event, shortened of course ? 100 point game), during a club's 3D. Then perhaps capture some 3D shooters.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

If the NFAA wants more members and wants to grow act like it. Treat me like you want me to come back. Go to Indoor Nationals and no practice bales? I drove how many hours and spent how much and no practice bales? Name one other event like that. I haven't been but have been told Vegas even has practice bales so don't say too many people. If you want to argue too many people/not enough room then don't let every tom, dick and harry come to nationals, have a pre qualification of some sort.
Seems all the best indoor shoots are not NFAA shoots


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

not sure why states dont use other official rounds for their state shoots.

if it's listed in the good book, it can be used. it doesnt HAFTA be 28 field. it could be a 14 field, 14 hunter and 14 animal. 14 targets is an official round length. it's just that EVERYONE assumes and has accepted 28 targets as THE ONLY official amount to shoot.

i'm not sure if this is common knowledge but land is becoming a premium. it's getting harder to find suitable and AFFORDABLE acreage to put in more than 28 targets. bless the clubs that can find and afford land to use whether it's by lease or purchase 

there are several rounds of less than 14 target courses available that are officially recognized for championship events. those are listed in article VI, starting at the bottom of page 50

maybe it's just a lil too presumptuous to think people actually read the good book including those charged with official responsibilities.

my reference: article IV, paragraph E. page 44 found at the nfaa website, nfaausa.org.


national championships i can see why they stick to the 28 target format....it's the nationals and it's supposed to be a challenge.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, not exactly. The NFAA lost a lot of clubs in our State when the 2005 Insurance Program went into effect. At one time we had 23 to 25 clubs. In a matter of two years or so we dropped to 15 clubs. You take clubs out of the picture you lose shooters.
> 
> brtsite asked why blame a NFAA for high dues. High dues, $60 for us, and 3 Championships and all the rest of the state events have nothing to offer. If of the ASA, we have Qualifiers, 6 or more, that pay off and go towards State Shooter of the Year. And then we have the State 3D Championship that pays off in addition to recognizing top finishers and SOY.
> And by the same issue, states are all different it seems. Last I heard our State Chapter, the IAA, recieves 25% or 30% of Gross intake after deductions and the club pays for all the Plaques and medals. The question here is, why does the state chapter need a cut of the action? I mean, they get X amount through due dollars. What does the state chapter do for any state sanctioned event? The host clubs puts on the event, not the state chapter. And then, who puts on the Vegas event and who helps set up and run the Vegas event? Non-paid State Directors and other volunteers. Our state chapter has donated money our State Director who helps at Vegas.
> ...


There should be some changes made to the field rounds. Do you all realize the game as present was developed when the only way to shoot was BB FS or heavy tackle. Long before 3 fingers under. The silly 14-15 walk up made a difference back then . your aiming rock didn't move up with you. Every one shot fingers & recurves. The game never kept up with the times. The courses have not changed either ,such as single file walk ups. We tried the international round for our state. Died not enough arrows to shoot. 
All of the suggestions are good, but you have to have the fortitude to try it. All changes may have a drop in attendance, but if you stay the course it may start to go up.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

WhitBri said:


> If the NFAA wants more members and wants to grow act like it. Treat me like you want me to come back. Go to Indoor Nationals and no practice bales? I drove how many hours and spent how much and no practice bales? Name one other event like that. I haven't been but have been told Vegas even has practice bales so don't say too many people. If you want to argue too many people/not enough room then don't let every tom, dick and harry come to nationals, have a pre qualification of some sort.
> Seems all the best indoor shoots are not NFAA shoots


There is practice at the indoor. There is 9 hrs of practice the first day. As for during the tournament, no there isn't a specified practice range. To get an extra room would be cost prohibitive. You do get 2 ends before the shoot. Vegas does have the room, but that is Vegas. I don't know of any, but what indoor shoot has a dedicated practice area during the shoot. Like the old adage says, If you didn't bring your game with you, you won't find it on the practice range.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

brtesite said:


> There is practice at the indoor. There is 9 hrs of practice the first day. As for during the tournament, no there isn't a specified practice range. To get an extra room would be cost prohibitive. You do get 2 ends before the shoot. Vegas does have the room, but that is Vegas. I don't know of any, but what indoor shoot has a dedicated practice area during the shoot. Like the old adage says, If you didn't bring your game with you, you won't find it on the practice range.


As stated earlier in the thread this is a prime example of the NFAA attitude. We are doing it our way, you conform to us. For one I know the Iowa ProAM does have a range open. $5 to shoot it and Rinehart sponsored it last year. You don't think you could find a sponsor and charge enough to cover the cost of a practice range? I somehow doubt that. I understand practice on Friday, some of us drive a day to get there, so you are asking for another day from work. But that's ok the other venues will pick up where the NFAA doesn't and continue to grow. Not trying to find any game on the practice range but would be much easier to find out a change in lighting changed a poi on a practice range then on the line in 10 shots not to mention the mental side of it. 
Most archers out there can't go to all the national events so they pick and choose, and its evident which events the pick and why.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

WhitBri said:


> As stated earlier in the thread this is a prime example of the NFAA attitude. We are doing it our way, you conform to us. For one I know the Iowa ProAM does have a range open. $5 to shoot it and Rinehart sponsored it last year. You don't think you could find a sponsor and charge enough to cover the cost of a practice range? I somehow doubt that. I understand practice on Friday, some of us drive a day to get there, so you are asking for another day from work. But that's ok the other venues will pick up where the NFAA doesn't and continue to grow. Not trying to find any game on the practice range but would be much easier to find out a change in lighting changed a poi on a practice range then on the line in 10 shots not to mention the mental side of it.
> Most archers out there can't go to all the national events so they pick and choose, and its evident which events the pick and why.


Iowa has a separate range for practice during the tournament? I didn't know that . How many bales? Do you think that the lighting on the practice range will be the same as on the line ? It is at the Indoor. NFAA would have to rent another hall for practice. It is just cost prohibitive. It might be 10 grand.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

brtesite said:


> Iowa has a separate range for practice during the tournament? I didn't know that . How many bales? Do you think that the lighting on the practice range will be the same as on the line ? It is at the Indoor. NFAA would have to rent another hall for practice. It is just cost prohibitive. It might be 10 grand.


Iowa does, maybe 8-10 bales I don't remember exactly, bales were Rineharts as they sponsored the range, it was in the same arena just separated by a temporary wall so lighting was basically the same there. Now I understand if they had to rent another area as no room in the same room. Lighting may not be identical but atleast the attempt would be made. The attitude of we are trying to accomidate instead of take it or leave it. Some also fly in, rest could get bumped, etc. And I get the whole come a day early but its hard enough for some to get the day or two off just for travel let alone another for practice. 
There would be a pile more room if you had to qualify to make nationals and limit it to competitive scores, up fees a little, maybe offer purses to the lower ranks (don't know if I even like that last part but seems to work for ASA). Now I don't know if that would help or hurt attendance/$ in but would atleast make the Nationals have more meaning. The statement I shot Nationals would then mean that I am capable of the upper tier not just I paid an entry fee to shoot my 280 in freestyle class. Partner it with the state shoots and may draw more interest to them.
Guess I don't know the historical data but how has attendance been to nationals compared to growth at other national events. I've always questioned why we have the 3 star event have two indoor and one fita type event, why not one field instead of one of the indoor venues beside the fact at the moment there wouldn't be very many that would qualify. nFAa does stand for field archery doesn't it? Wish this part of archery wasn't dying.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

WhitBri said:


> Iowa does, maybe 8-10 bales I don't remember exactly, bales were Rineharts as they sponsored the range, it was in the same arena just separated by a temporary wall so lighting was basically the same there. Now I understand if they had to rent another area as no room in the same room. Lighting may not be identical but atleast the attempt would be made. The attitude of we are trying to accomidate instead of take it or leave it. Some also fly in, rest could get bumped, etc. And I get the whole come a day early but its hard enough for some to get the day or two off just for travel let alone another for practice.
> There would be a pile more room if you had to qualify to make nationals and limit it to competitive scores, up fees a little, maybe offer purses to the lower ranks (don't know if I even like that last part but seems to work for ASA). Now I don't know if that would help or hurt attendance/$ in but would atleast make the Nationals have more meaning. The statement I shot Nationals would then mean that I am capable of the upper tier not just I paid an entry fee to shoot my 280 in freestyle class. Partner it with the state shoots and may draw more interest to them.
> Guess I don't know the historical data but how has attendance been to nationals compared to growth at other national events. I've always questioned why we have the 3 star event have two indoor and one fita type event, why not one field instead of one of the indoor venues beside the fact at the moment there wouldn't be very many that would qualify. nFAa does stand for field archery doesn't it? Wish this part of archery wasn't dying.



Were the bales for spots or for 3D? The attendance is around 1300. maybe a little more for the indoor. To limit the shooters down to maybe 1k, would mean a lot more increase in fees to cover the costs of the convention center. Then you have the cost of expenses for the staff. Office, judges, sound, target faces, trucks to bring the bales. It's not cheap. I don't think that the shooters would like that just so they may have a chance to shoot some extra practice arrows. 
I don't think you know how the rules are. There is no pay outs in NFAA unless you are a pro. If that is what you want, then have your director introduce agenda to eliminate the pro div. & run it like Vegas where you don't need to be a pro to shoot for money


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

WhitBri said:


> Iowa does, maybe 8-10 bales I don't remember exactly, bales were Rineharts as they sponsored the range, it was in the same arena just separated by a temporary wall so lighting was basically the same there. Now I understand if they had to rent another area as no room in the same room. Lighting may not be identical but atleast the attempt would be made. The attitude of we are trying to accomidate instead of take it or leave it. Some also fly in, rest could get bumped, etc. And I get the whole come a day early but its hard enough for some to get the day or two off just for travel let alone another for practice.
> There would be a pile more room if you had to qualify to make nationals and limit it to competitive scores, up fees a little, maybe offer purses to the lower ranks (don't know if I even like that last part but seems to work for ASA). Now I don't know if that would help or hurt attendance/$ in but would atleast make the Nationals have more meaning. The statement I shot Nationals would then mean that I am capable of the upper tier not just I paid an entry fee to shoot my 280 in freestyle class. Partner it with the state shoots and may draw more interest to them.
> Guess I don't know the historical data but how has attendance been to nationals compared to growth at other national events. I've always questioned why we have the 3 star event have two indoor and one fita type event, why not one field instead of one of the indoor venues beside the fact at the moment there wouldn't be very many that would qualify. nFAa does stand for field archery doesn't it? Wish this part of archery wasn't dying.


Do you realize the impact to have a field round for the 3 star tourny. Vegas 1800, indoor aprox 1300-1400. Field round 350. Be aprox 1000 shooters revenue lost


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

In my previous post I said the only game that the NFAA has that is of any current "value" is the indoor spot game. I should have better defined value. 
The indoors games "value":
- It has growth potential 
- No competition from other archery games, organizations or hunting seasons.
- The indoor season is during a time of year when a lot of people stay indoors.
- It is very social game where newbies can learn archery skills.
- New archers can be exposed to the NFAA and archery competition.
- Indoor archery can be shot in urban/suburban areas.
- Anyone can participate. Families can shoot together. Physically a very broad audience can partake, much easier to do than other archery games.

Indoor spots is where and when the NFAA can "hook" folks. I know some fieldies look down their old crooked noses at the folks that only shoot indoors, 3D and bow hunt but that is a mistake.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

So if you had the 3 star be vegas, dakota classic and field nationals you are saying 1000 less shooters would shoot indoor nationals? I would think that the attendance at vegas and indoor nationals is pretty solid and right now you get a few more to go shoot the dakota classic as they shot both the indoor venues. Just thinking if the field round was brought in might generate some interest.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> In my previous post I said the only game that the NFAA has that is of any current "value" is the indoor spot game. I should have better defined value.
> The indoors games "value":
> - It has growth potential
> - No competition from other archery games, organizations or hunting seasons.
> ...


That is spot on. :thumbs_up


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

I like the the Field round just the way it is. In Florida we shoot 9 State tournies and a State games plus the NAFAC/ IFAA round in December. I don't even have to leave the State to shoot Field Rounds . But I like it so much I go to other States to shoot their Sectionals. I may even go to Yakton this summer for the big 10 day. What I like to see is the NFAA spend the money their spending in Yakton a build more ranges in other States that have something else to do their.
Most shooter that like field will go no matter what , but say they, the NFAA start's building a few more ranges around the country in areas that are easy to get to,and have something to do beside's Archery when you get there. The club bidding thing is a thing of the past , spend the money WAC spend's to rent the center's for the indoor's and start doing something for Field archery! I think most of use still like the game just the way it is , why change to make those that don't happy. Right Mike...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> In my previous post I said the only game that the NFAA has that is of any current "value" is the indoor spot game. I should have better defined value.
> The indoors games "value":
> - It has growth potential
> - No competition from other archery games, organizations or hunting seasons.
> ...


I for one will never shoot another NFAA indoor spot game so long as it exists today.

If you listen to 3D shooters, they don't want to shoot 60 arrows. There is no reason to shoot 60 arrows. They find it boring.
If a Vegas face attendance drops. 
Virtually all leagues in my area are "burned out" within 4 weeks and then some one wants to run them 10, 11 and 12 weeks. Handicaps suck. Shoot 300 throughout and get beat by someone with a handicap. Damn! A 300 shooter can't improve his or her game.

The last time I shot a Indoor it was the ASA Indoor DAIR 440. I had fun. Read the rules of the game. It can be a Team effort - shooter/spotter. Two of us had the same spotter. Maybe a down fall, the 1 minute end, but those who complained that shot it cleaned the 1 minute end. 4 arrows per end, 40 arrows for the event.
ASA also has the DAIR 380 using a tie breaker penny size ring worth .001.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

nock tune said:


> I like the the Field round just the way it is. In Florida we shoot 9 State tournies and a State games plus the NAFAC/ IFAA round in December. I don't even have to leave the State to shoot Field Rounds . But I like it so much I go to other States to shoot their Sectionals. I may even go to Yakton this summer for the big 10 day. What I like to see is the NFAA spend the money their spending in Yakton a build more ranges in other States that have something else to do their.
> Most shooter that like field will go no matter what , but say they, the NFAA start's building a few more ranges around the country in areas that are easy to get to,and have something to do beside's Archery when you get there. The club bidding thing is a thing of the past , spend the money WAC spend's to rent the center's for the indoor's and start doing something for Field archery! I think most of use still like the game just the way it is , why change to make those that don't happy. Right Mike...


Dave , I don't have a problem with the field round, because That's what I grew up with & I understand it. I can see where newbies might have a problem with the rules & the length of the round. I'd be fore any change that would bring in more people. 
You don't really think that what has been built in Yankton has come out of the NFAA pot do you? There isn't another Yankton around the country. Most of it has been accomplished thru the efforts of the Pres. & EAston.
The money that it takes to rent the hall for the indoor or Vegas comes back in the form of registrations. What return would you get from a field shoot. Would this be donated land or purchased.
The idea is sound, but I doubt that it could be done.
Why don't you look into the Pittman & Robinson act for funds for out door ranges. The money is there unless the Dems have latched on to it.
\


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Pittman & Robinson Act. Lots of paper work and unlikely was what I found. Almost need a attorney to wade through the mess.... On a larger scale...maybe funds could be made available..


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

the indoor leagues we shoot in my area in minnesota,ya people get handicaps but they cannot get with handicap over a 298 out of 300, you have too shoot the scores of 299 or 300,we do not allow ever with handi cap over a 298 score that`s the only fare way.personally i would rather shoot a 360 so those X`s count more and that if someone shoots a 299 53x it would count as a 352 now that`s more fare too.


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

There's a shooting range 2 miles from my house built from Pittman & Robinson funds ,mostly guns,pay per use no clubs. Myself an another fellow built a 14 target field their, I'm usally the only one using it, 3d is King in this area. Theirs also a archery shooting complex up by Gainesville that was funded by Easton, maybe P&R and others, that hold some shoots in State plus host a ASA and some Fita stuff.
I don't know were the money for Yanton is coming from, but it sure be nice to have a few more places to shoot Nationals. The south is out as far as a place to hold the Nat's . but say some of the regions all got together to find some land somewhere, get funded somehow and built a couple more ranges. Then we,d have at least 5 places to hold the Nationals and instead of just a club being the host that whole region would and they could use it for their sectionals.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Had / have the same problems in the USPSA (United States Practical Shooting Association), so NFAA board members may want to talk to Phil Strader, President USPSA for ideas. My take on it is that you need someone in charge with a vision of where to take the organization and then set goals, some of which may not be popular. Sometimes, just responding to member "complaints" will result in a camel. A camel is a race horse designed by committee, not very good for racing.

I like shooting NFAA field. I usually shoot a 1/2 course 4x a week during the summer and participate at the matches at 2 local clubs. Usually 15 to 20 shooters show up for a field shoot where 90 to 100 shooters show up for a 3d event. The archers are out there, but there isn't enough incentive for archers to want to shoot field. There were only 3 people in my class at the IL state championship. Something needs to be done quickly as membership and participation at local events is continuing to decline. I'm wondering why the club still spends money maintaining the 28 state accredited field course for those few members that use it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

brtesite said:


> Why don't you look into the Pittman & Robinson act for funds for out door ranges. The money is there unless the Dems have latched on to it.
> \


P-R funds are sent to the states and are generated by TAXES paid on guns, ammo, fishing tackle, and archery tackle. The state presents a plan to the feds for spending the money. Locals can make application to the state for funds that remaining after state projects are identified. Some of the funds go to hunter education, some to facilities construction, maintenance and repairs to existing facilities. Funded activities must relate to shooting sports or fishing activities. In my experience local activities are frequently required to put up some matching funds.

Its always worth a try if you have a good project with strong local support.

Just my two cents worth.


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## Wyattwithabow (Nov 3, 2013)

Put more money into do nationals. Pay down more. I hear it all the time" I don't want to go pro or wast my time and money to shoot against Jessie". Pay down further, grow the venue, put more cash and maybe a car or truck up for grabs to get the entry up at od nationals. Goin to Darrington, spending 800.00 to get there and lodging for most people on the east coast is a big hit to there wallet. If we payed down a little further or put more emphasis on payback or possible payback I think we would get more people to attend. I've always said if riding a bull or fishing can get tv time so can archery. The nfaa should put more into the system to get more out. How does fishing get soo much attention? You watch a guy cast for Christ sakes.... Just my 2 cents.....


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

wyattwithabow,you have an excellent solution i have even tried to do this same ideal on the state level but no one will listen.my other ideal to go along with this is why not show state or country and bow used with shooter`s name .just these two things would help make archery much larger and the bow companies no matter what size gets a deal. just look at how the big three bow companies kept the barnsdale class-x bow shot by dave barnsdale that won vegas against all the top pro`s a few years ago from going in the books ,those bow companies listed it the other bow and that`s bull crap ! personally i hope Elite kick`s their butts !


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