# Target Archers D-Loop. Which way and why?



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One should tie the d-loop for least amount of twist for the release being used. For my ST360 with rotating head this was not a problem, but with fixed head like hinge type leases knots had to be reversed. 

Some claim there not enough torque provided the d-loop is not overly short, but why not have the best....

Your words; My burnt end for the top knot is now on the left/face side. Me saying it; Loop comes off left side at the top and right side at the bottom.
top.
>\<.
bottom.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I do it the same way, for the same reason.
Not convinced it makes a spot of difference, but figured it can't hurt.


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## daniel2370 (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm a right handed shooter and I've tried it both ways and I can't tell a bit of difference one way or the other.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I am using the softest material what LA is selling and I like to have the d-loop longer then 3/4" with top burnt end facing me. I don't twist my release is always horizontal. With a longer d-loop I have tried both \ and / ways have not noticed any errors in accuracy.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

anything you do that eliminates as much potential for any amount of torque, is advantageous to your shooting. 
the accepted wisdom, given that you cant you release in the typical fashion, is that for a right handed shooter, the top leg of the loop should come off the left side of the string and the bottom leg of the loop should come off the right side of the string. the burnt ends would be on the same side respectively and of course, the knots should be tied so that the burnt ends are not on the inside of the loop.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

I have tied the Cow Hitch both ways and noticed no difference. It is required that the knots be opposite and I believe the softer the loop material the better. I like my loops about 3/4" ( clears the release hook away from the back of the Nock.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the idea of tying them the way I described, is to reduce the "potential" for any torque from twisting the loop as you anchor. not many people anchor with their release sitting perfectly horizontal. most people lay the release along side their jaw at roughly a 45 deg. angle, which twists the loop to some degree. 
when the legs of the loop come off opposite sides of the string, and those sides are accordingly chosen, by the direction the loop is twisted, the "potential" for twist induced torque, is minimalized.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

ron w said:


> the idea of tying them the way I described, is to reduce the "potential" for any torque from twisting the loop as you anchor. not many people anchor with their release sitting perfectly horizontal. most people lay the release along side their jaw at roughly a 45 deg. angle, which twists the loop to some degree.
> when the legs of the loop come off opposite sides of the string, and those sides are accordingly chosen, by the direction the loop is twisted, the "potential" for twist induced torque, is minimalized.


I believe this is a valid point in theory and I do arrange my loop to complement my release angle however, in actuality I could see no difference in my shooting or D-Loop wear. I guess the best statement would be " if it feels good, do it ".


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I know what you mean,.... you don't always see any difference in many things we do about archery. that said,.... there is a logical purpose applied to many of those things. in this case,...."potential",..... is the key word. some times,...many times, actually,... we do stuff to logically ensure the "potential" doesn't exist, or is at least, minimized. it's not always about whether it physically makes a difference or not, or "if it feels good, do it", as you say,....there is sometimes, truly a logical reason for doing it one way or the other, based on the alternative way, having more "potential" logically,.... to induce torque. 
the reason you don't see any difference, is most likely because the loop knots, rotate to find their own "happy place", so to speak. the potential problem with that, is that the loop legs usually take an abrupt bend coming off the knot that can be hard on the loop material and the serving stability. 
so, by doing one particular way, instead of another, the "potential" to cause problems, is much reduced in a general sense.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I tie mine so that it sits at that slight angle like everyone is suggesting and to me there are a couple other things that really help.

1. Using 1.8mm BCY cord in the white color, it is very low stretch and it is very supple because it isn't dyed. It ties much smaller knots

2. I use fire line to tie in only one nock set next to the lower knot. With fire line it is easy to build a 1/16 in knock set that does the job with out taking up a lot of room

These things make the size of my d loops from top to bottom very short and less prone to torquing. The longer they are from top to bottom allows them to twist the string way more.

I have also gotten my drawlengh perfect so that I can use a slightly longer d loop and as supple the cord is it soaks up the twist from my release really well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Hey I did tie in my prototype d loop that really is pretty cool, only a few people have ever seen it, it is on my 3d bow right now.

If somebody wants to volunteer to pm their number you can post a pic for me.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Tooltech said:


> I believe this is a valid point in theory and I do arrange my loop to complement my release angle however, in actuality I could see no difference in my shooting or D-Loop wear. I guess the best statement would be " if it feels good, do it ".


It's always good to take advantage of a forgiveness opportunity when there are no other significant costs to it, tho. That's just MO, but this is probably a reason most folks tie in the D loop the way being described here. 

For example, I use the stiffest material I can find - something made by Winner's Choice that I found at Lancaster which I bought 10 feet of - to help prevent the loop from coiling up around the string on the shot. This stuff is almost like wire it's so stiff. I also anchor with the release aid in the 45 deg position with the index and ring fingers against the face, so there's a definite twist there. So, for me, the combination of some twist, extremely stiff loop material and shooting very light poundage/holding weight all adds up to I'll take all the help I can get on reducing the twist whether it actually helps or not LOL.

But I agree it's probably not a noticeable effect for most shooters. For me, I haven't done any experimentation either to see if it's an advantage for me - I just learned how to tie my D loops that way and tossed it into my handy bin of hope-it-helps setup techniques LOL. 

So I agree it's more one of those why-not setup items than something that is an epidemic finding by compound shooters to really make a big difference.....

LS


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One thing about the limp or really soft d-loop material. Watch carefully if using caliper releases. The jaws must go closed, period. Any gap and the limp or soft stuff may pull through...and may result in a bust in the mouth. Saw it happen.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> One thing about the limp or really soft d-loop material. Watch carefully if using caliper releases. The jaws must go closed, period. Any gap and the limp or soft stuff may pull through...and may result in a bust in the mouth. Saw it happen.


Oh yeah I pulled loops through my old Scott caliper a bunch of times in the old days when I first started experimenting with them. Clamping onto the draw string under the knock was starting to wear the serving out, so the guys at the shop in TX introduced me to the D loop. My Scott is old and a little worn, so the loop pulled through it a bunch of times, giving me a perfect surprise shot. Went back to clamping on the string. All my bows were stolen out of my house a few years later, ending the experiment forever. They didn't get the Scott which I still have and dearly love. But it lasted long enough to teach me that lesson for sure.

So yes, even with a good non-worn caliper, this is a hazard that one must take good care with.....

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I tried that really stiff stuff from BCY. it wouldn't stay on my Solution's hook ! I suppose it works OK on a release that has a captured hook, but not on open hooks.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> I tried that really stiff stuff from BCY. it wouldn't stay on my Solution's hook ! I suppose it works OK on a release that has a captured hook, but not on open hooks.


yep, it just barely stayed on my Honey Do's hook. It was generally reliable but I did have to be careful when hooking on and starting my draw. My Evo and Stan both have very positive hooks, tho, so it's not a problem for me anymore. But it'd be a good solution for caliper shooters for sure...

LS


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I've been wanting to play around with the 1.8 "D" braid material. I think I'll order some today from Lancaster and see how it feels compared to my standard BCY loop material. Dudley said he designed this to be used with hinges to give a better feel while the release moved.


Padgett said:


> I tie mine so that it sits at that slight angle like everyone is suggesting and to me there are a couple other things that really help.
> 
> 1. Using 1.8mm BCY cord in the white color, it is very low stretch and it is very supple because it isn't dyed. It ties much smaller knots
> 
> ...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

So many people pick reallly bulky thick stiff cord and it does nothing but make bulky huge messes to look at and I does last longer in most cases for guys that only allow a bow shop work on their bow. I shoot tens of thousands of arrows per year and d loop maintenance is just one of many things I do no different than fletching my arrows.. I tie d loops that enhance my shooting.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I tie mine so I twist into the knots, not out of them.

I prefer the 1.8mm material to the 2mm stuff. it melts to a blob a little better and the blob sits on top of the knot more easily than the larger gauge stuff.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, there's really no reason for that bulky stiff material for a loop. the smaller softer stuff, ties tighter and stays put much better and is less apt to induce torque from twist. it's the whole reason people started tying loops from multiple wraps of bow string material for and serving it to make what is known as a "catfish loop", several years ago.
I don't personally like them, but I mentioned it, as one of the ways for the purpose of suggesting attempts to eliminate the potential for a loop to introduce torque.
I also see no reason to tie nock points, inside a loop. if the loop is tied good and tight on the string, they are fine by themselves. I suppose the trend towards short ATA bows and their extreme string angles, have been the reason for the need to keep the loop from collapsing against the knock at draw. 
to me,.... just another reason to disdain those short bows!. it seems every time they come up, all I ever run into, is reason to not want one, when issues about their setup arise !


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

ron w said:


> yup, there's really no reason for that bulky stiff material for a loop. the smaller softer stuff, ties tighter and stays put much better and is less apt to induce torque from twist. it's the whole reason people started tying loops from multiple wraps of bow string material for and serving it to make what is known as a "catfish loop", several years ago.
> I don't personally like them, but I mentioned it, as one of the ways for the purpose of suggesting attempts to eliminate the potential for a loop to introduce torque.
> I also see no reason to tie nock points, inside a loop. if the loop is tied good and tight on the string, they are fine by themselves. I suppose the trend towards short ATA bows and their extreme string angles, have been the reason for the need to keep the loop from collapsing against the knock at draw.
> to me,.... just another reason to disdain those short bows!. it seems every time they come up, all I ever run into, is reason to not want one, when issues about their setup arise !


But, but, but Ron, "I hunt from a treestand so I need the shortest bow I can get." How many times have you heard or read this? It holds no water with me. At 5'8" tall I still prefer bows at least 36" and 39" is better yet.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

he, he,....what did we ever do, when a "short compound" was 42 or 44 inches long ?!.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Aw cmon fellers, ya'll quit dissin' my loop rope, now... I love my wire like stuff, so much I even bought 10' of it from Lancaster so I don't run out. So there.

As for short ATA, the trend there that started back in the 80's and eventually went nuts is partially responsible for the popularity of the D loop. And for the knock-pinch reasons we're discussing here. Prior to that, you still saw a fair number of unadorned draw strings and shooters using rope releases or simply clipping onto the bare string underneath the knock.

I think we're seeing the trend slowly starting to reverse and bows beginning to settle into about the 35" to 40" range. I have to admit my Supra Max at 37" is actually my best fitting bow. Don't get me wrong, I love love love my Hoyt at 45", but it does require a slightly longer D loop for me to get completely in line with it due to its length.

But I think the D loop will remain about 98% in use even so, with the other 2% including the catfish loop (which is also a superb solution)....

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the shortest bow I've ever owned is my 101st airborne, at 36-1/4". and I was hesitant about buying that, for it's length !.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

well my DL is approx. 28 1/2" and the shortest bow I was able to comfortably shoot was a genesis pro youth bow, it was 35" IIRC. It was right on the borderline even with the shortest possible D loop. 

But like I said, I have to admit that my 37" Supra Max is actually like it was made specifically for me. Everything fits on the back end virtually perfectly. Don't know if that's a peculiarity of my anatomy that I just never realized before, or if it's common for many shooters in general. 

My Hoyt at 45" does, as I mentioned, require a longer D loop for me to get my back end into alignment. If my right forearm were about 1 or 2" longer and I could shoot fingers with good alignment, the Hoyt would be perfect for that.... 

So ATA is one of those compromises that fortunately has a pretty decent useable range. OTOH, I'm glad the too-short thing is finally starting to fade and more bows that I can actually shoot are starting to appear on the market LOL.

LS


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Hey I did tie in my prototype d loop that really is pretty cool, only a few people have ever seen it, it is on my 3d bow right now.
> 
> If somebody wants to volunteer to pm their number you can post a pic for me.


I am posting a couple photos for Padgett. I do like the way this one is tied in.

Here is the description in his words;

*"Those were done with 6lb white Berkeley fire line and 1.8mm BCY cord."*


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

with that real hard material, I could hardly get anything on the draw , and the loop was off the hook, and that's with my free swinging bail,...safety fully on , solution2 !. admittedly though ,.... the hook is pretty small on that release.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The bottom d-loop is my standard d-loop that I normally shoot with, I prefer the release to be straight behind the nock when at full draw and I like a small lower nock set.

Now the d-loop on the top is my prototype d-loop that I have only made 2 times and this is the second one, a couple summers ago I believe I had tied a catfish or something and I shot with it for a while and decided to put back on a d-loop but when I cut the catfish loop off I had a quick idea and I just did it. I shot with if for a good month and really liked it but I just never really put out the effort to do it again.

On the prototype one I burned the ends normally but I take a razor blade and trim off one side of the mushroom where the mushroom is going to lay against the cord and this keeps the mushroom from sitting at a funny angle. Secondly as I went around and around with the fire line I kept the mushroom next to the cord it was being served next to but on the outer edge so that the mushroom doesn't stick out into the area inside the d-loop. 

You will notice that there is some white serving above and below the d-loop, well that is where the fireline starts and stops. I started wrapping the fireline probably 8 times around the center serving and then I put my d-loop cord around the string and I began serving around and around it and then once I had went around it 20 or so times nice and tight I then went back to the center serving and went around it another 12 or so times and finished the pull under knot. this way the beginning and end of the serving are on top of each other with a lot of wraps.

This is what i like about 6lb fireline is that it is not a braid and it lays very flat and small so you can do many wraps of it and not build up a big ugly mess, when you look at the job it doesn't look like i have done at least 35 wraps of serving material on the top and then another 35 total on the bottom but I assure you they are there.

I fight big 4 to 6 lb small mouth bass on fireline in canada all the time and it is beyond strong, so by the time you do 10 to 20 wraps of it you have something that is nice and neat and also durable.

The only issue I have is if I have a problem and have to make another one it will take me a good 15 minutes to do it. But at a asa I would just call a break down and go to the practice break down bale and put on a normal one I have in my 3d stool and sight in my bow really quick and be back to shootin in minutes.

Take a second and really look at the distance from the top of the d-loop cord to the distance to the bottom of the d-loop cord. That gap for the nock is for a easton g-nock and then there is a 1/16 inch lower nock set and then the width of the 1.8mm d-loop cord, the distance from top of the d-loop to the bottom is really really a short one. With a regular d-loop you have more than doubble the distance for each knot because of the knot going around the outer edge of the d-loop cord and on the inner edge of it where it leaves the knot and by the time you do this on top and bottom it adds up to a lot wider d-loop.


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