# Can you recommend any tutorials on compound shooting form?



## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

I'm a visual learner. So seeing it done helps me a lot.

I'm looking for any videos you feel give good advice on stance etc. No point giving me advice on drawing as I won't be able to implement it:

My archery is largely crossbow based because of a shoulder injury. However, I did decide to take a chance and I bought a 55# micro compound. (essentially 4 limbs extnding out of a pistol-gripped riser so it is about 80 cm from cam to cam.)

Drawing this is hard work with my shoulder but I eventually found a rather unusual way of doing so by using my neck muscles and my lats. Looks ridiculous but works so who cares.

Once drawn though, I might be doing all sorts wrong and I won't know until I can compare.

Any suggestions gratefully received.


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## fgignac (Aug 21, 2014)

Two of the best resources out there are John Dudley at NockOn, in particular the first season of the "School of Nock" series. And George Ryals (GRIV) "Thing a week" series.

That being said, generally speaking, the shorter a bow, the more aggressive it tends to be in the draw. If you have shoulder issues, a longer axel to axel bow with a lower draw weight would put you in a better position for success. If you are drawing the bow with your "neck and lats" I would bet this will cause you problems at that draw weight since these muscles were not designed to work that way.

If you are serious about getting into archery, I would recommend looking up Archery Strong. They design custom, archery specific, shoulder rehab and strengthening programs for a very reasonable price. I believe @Dbolick (a member on here) is on their staff and could steer you in the right direction


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## Dbolick (Mar 27, 2020)

glad you are getting back into vertical bows! like fgignac said, Nock On is a great source. here is a link to a video i feel that is well worth the time: 




shoulder health is key to longevity in the sport. i'd like to know a little more of what kind of issues you are having compensation is a last ditch effort, it may lead to other shoulder injuries. Look into Archery Strong. I'd always recommend the assessment and personalized corrective exercises. That will give you a one on one video call with Christian (the owner) and allow him to get to know you as a person, what kind of issues you are having, previous history of injuries with your shoulder, shooting style, goals, etc. From that point on Christian will send you a link to a video exercise library of specific corrective exercises personalized for you with specific instructions on what to do, when to do them, and how to do them to get you into the best shooting shape you can be in. He will periodically check in to see if anything needs to be adjusted.
there are some other options. he just released his newest system, Archery Stronger Shoulders. $9.99 a month, unbeatable. What that is is a series of exercises given to you a week at a time that is just a general training regimen that is specific to the forces of archery. You give up the personalization though but it still isn't a bad option. For you having a pre-existing injury i would do the assessment and corrective exercises. there may be specific things you need to do or not to do, he can also assess drawing style and what will be most suitable for you. The difference between Christian and just your average joe who is a personal trainer is that Christian understands the forces that needs to be taken into account with archery. There are a lot of fine joint motions that must take place to allow for your shoulder to perform the work it needs to without any adverse reactions, these are the things that make Christian so good at what he does, he understands all those minute movements that must happen. 

If interested use the code strong10 at check out, it'll save you 10%


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

fgignac said:


> If you are drawing the bow with your "neck and lats" I would bet this will cause you problems at that draw weight since these muscles were not designed to work that way.


Thanks for the links, but I'll also try to describe my draw method.

Bow in the left hand, release in the right.
Lift the bow above my head with both hands as if I were to try to fire it, horizontally over a wall a foot above my head.

Still with me?

I rest my right bicep against the side of my head and brace it with my neck muscles.

At that point, I use my left lats and pecs to lever my straight left arm down toward the ground.

Doing this essentially pulls the bow away from my immobile right hand, without engaging my shoulder muscles.

From there, I can simply move my right hand to my anchor Index knuckle behind my right ear, aim and release.

It's a sight to behold, I can assure you!! 😅


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## fgignac (Aug 21, 2014)

Beau String said:


> Thanks for the links, but I'll also try to describe my draw method.
> 
> Bow in the left hand, release in the right.
> Lift the bow above my head with both hands as if I were to try to fire it, horizontally over a wall a foot above my head.
> ...


I follow you.. But at this point I can't really offer much more of an opinion because I just don't know the biomechanics well enough. 

I have a fairly good grasp of the mechanics of a "conventional" draw. But yours is clearly quite unconventional. So from here I'll let people more knowledgeable than me take over


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

fgignac said:


> I follow you.. But at this point I can't really offer much more of an opinion because I just don't know the biomechanics well enough.
> 
> I have a fairly good grasp of the mechanics of a "conventional" draw. But yours is clearly quite unconventional. So from here I'll let people more knowledgeable than me take over


The draw is no great problem. In truth I have little choice. Drawing conventionally is just not gonna happen without me looking constipated.

I can draw my bow perfectly well and get lined up, but I want to perfect the other aspects and I hope those things I can learn in those videos!


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

Dbolick said:


> i'd like to know a little more of what kind of issues you are having compensation is a last ditch effort, it may lead to other shoulder injuries. Look into Archery Strong. I'd always recommend the assessment and personalized corrective exercises.


A motorcycle accident trashed the nerves in my arm which meant that I lost innervation to my left deltoid. 

I had a nerve graft which was partially successful to the point that I can raise my arm straight up, but my posterior deltoid never recovered and so I can draw or hold my arm back. 

This means that I don't have the strength there to counter pull on the bow as my right arm pulls the string back.

Dunno if that makes sense...


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## Dbolick (Mar 27, 2020)

Beau String said:


> A motorcycle accident trashed the nerves in my arm which meant that I lost innervation to my left deltoid.
> 
> I had a nerve graft which was partially successful to the point that I can raise my arm straight up, but my posterior deltoid never recovered and so I can draw or hold my arm back.
> 
> ...


ohhh dang sorry to hear that man. yeah with all that factored in i would say your drawing style is appropriate


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## fgignac (Aug 21, 2014)

Beau String said:


> A motorcycle accident trashed the nerves in my arm which meant that I lost innervation to my left deltoid.
> 
> I had a nerve graft which was partially successful to the point that I can raise my arm straight up, but my posterior deltoid never recovered and so I can draw or hold my arm back.
> 
> ...


You will find that many people recommend a dynamic shot execution using "back tension". Basically pulling with your back muscles to set off the release. This probably won't be possible for you. You will most likely have to rely on some kind of hand manipulation to activate the release. Many people call this "punching the trigger" but it is 100% possible to make a controlled shot using a hand manipulation. It just requires more discipline. Another person I recommend looking up is Joel Turner at ShotIQ. He had an online course you can take called "Controlled Process Shooting", but also has a lot of free content if you go looking for it.

If you are going to be relying on hand manipulations to execute the shot it is worth leaning his process. The sweet thing about his process is that it applies to all shooting. So learning it can improve your crossbow or rifle shooting as well. If you want to get a better idea of what he does, you can look up Bowjunky podcast from Apr 29 2020 or Gritty Bowman podcast #153.


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## The Bow Show (Nov 4, 2020)

school of nock, cant go wrong there, dudley knows his stuff 💪👌🤘


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

fgignac said:


> You will find that many people recommend a dynamic shot execution using "back tension". Basically pulling with your back muscles to set off the release. This probably won't be possible for you. You will most likely have to rely on some kind of hand manipulation to activate the release. Many people call this "punching the trigger" but it is 100% possible to make a controlled shot using a hand manipulation. It just requires more discipline. Another person I recommend looking up is Joel Turner at ShotIQ. He had an online course you can take called "Controlled Process Shooting", but also has a lot of free content if you go looking for it.
> 
> If you are going to be relying on hand manipulations to execute the shot it is worth leaning his process. The sweet thing about his process is that it applies to all shooting. So learning it can improve your crossbow or rifle shooting as well. If you want to get a better idea of what he does, you can look up Bowjunky podcast from Apr 29 2020 or Gritty Bowman podcast #153.


I have two trigger releases. One wraps around the wrist, and the other (the one I tend to use) has a rubber grip with pronounced finger grooves. 

That has what feels like a 3oz set-trigger! I only have to feather it and it releases which I quite like. I keep my finger on the body of the trigger and when I'm ready, I slide my finger off the edge and it releases the arrow on contact with the trigger.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Beau String said:


> I have two trigger releases. One wraps around the wrist, and the other (the one I tend to use) has a rubber grip with pronounced finger grooves.
> 
> That has what feels like a 3oz set-trigger! I only have to feather it and it releases which I quite like. I keep my finger on the body of the trigger and when I'm ready, I slide my finger off the edge and it releases the arrow on contact with the trigger.


Beau String. YOu are a special use case. So, general use videos will not apply to you.
Generic advice about "this is back tension", also does not apply to you. Your draw method sounds to be biomechanically appropriate to your specific use case. Your method works for you, and makes absolute sense, for your description of your abilities, range of motion in your left deltoid. Posterior deltoid no longer innervated and anterior deltoid is doing all the work.

Use your skeletal structure (bones in the forearm, bone in the upper arm, and your collar bones) to your advantage.
You will find that you are more stable at full draw, with a narrow wedge stance. Blah, blah, blah about how folks are "supposed" to be in a mild open stance, does not apply to you. The WEDGE will work wonders for how steady you hold at full draw.








Swing the bow arm out, so that if you put a pvc pipe across both shoulder blades, then, the pvc pipe would also touch your bow shoulder, the pvc pipe would also touch your bow side elbow, and the pvc pipe would also touch your bow hand/bow wrist. This is the wedge. The bones in your forearm, and the upper arm bone, and your bow side collar bone, and both shoulder blades are all in a line. This will take nearly all of the loading off your deltoid (bow side)
and put all the resisting force into the bones/ your skeleton.

Biomechanically, your draw motion is perfect for you. I did a seminar years ago, all the way in Florida. ONE seminar fella, told me he had target panic. He was stuck low. He was shooting a Mathews Apex 7. Older gentleman. I asked him to demonstrate. Yup, shooting just 20 yards, he was stuck low. ONE wrinkle. He told me that he has no bicep muscles. Bilateral. He was drawing with his lats, rhomboids and trapezius muscles.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Beau String said:


> I'm a visual learner. So seeing it done helps me a lot.
> 
> I'm looking for any videos you feel give good advice on stance etc. No point giving me advice on drawing as I won't be able to implement it:
> 
> ...


So, AFTER you get to full draw, with your unique method....then,
it's all about the follow through reaction...for release half side of the body, and for the bow arm half side of the body.











Not gonna show you HOW Dudley gets to full draw, cuz no point. Dudley has shoulder injuries, but his shoulder injuries are different, vastly different than your posterior deltoid, bow arm side. So, since you get to full draw in your very efficient, unique way, which is 100% appropriate for your lack of innervation in the left posterior deltoid,
then, what is important is for you to focus on the follow-through reactions.

For every action (release half of body pulling on the release), there is an equal and opposite re-action.
Study these freeze frame photos, taken from a video. Then try to see if a video (from your camera phone)
can look somewhat similar. That would be a very very good goal.


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> For every action (release half of body pulling on the release), there is an equal and opposite re-action.
> Study these freeze frame photos, taken from a video. Then try to see if a video (from your camera phone)
> can look somewhat similar. That would be a very very good goal.


I certainly try to let me release hand fall back after the shot, but as to what it looks like, I will see if my girlfriend will be my camera operator.

I will also concentrate on how my arm lines up with my back. I _think_ I'm approximating what you recommend, but I've not paid close enough attention. I will have to focus on it next time to see if I can "feel" how my form looks from above.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Beau String said:


> I certainly try to let me release hand fall back after the shot, but as to what it looks like, I will see if my girlfriend will be my camera operator.
> 
> I will also concentrate on how my arm lines up with my back. I _think_ I'm approximating what you recommend, but I've not paid close enough attention. I will have to focus on it next time to see if I can "feel" how my form looks from above.


Try a rubber stretch band tied into a loop.
Then, do your unique draw motion, standing with your back touching a wall behind you.
See if you can have both shoulder blades and the entire bow arm all touching the wall behind you.
If your bow arm and both shoulders can touch the wall all at the same time,
then, the bones in your bow arm will take care of all the load, and your posterior deltoid will not have to do any loading.


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## Beau String (Nov 29, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Try a rubber stretch band tied into a loop.
> Then, do your unique draw motion, standing with your back touching a wall behind you.
> See if you can have both shoulder blades and the entire bow arm all touching the wall behind you.
> If your bow arm and both shoulders can touch the wall all at the same time,
> then, the bones in your bow arm will take care of all the load, and your posterior deltoid will not have to do any loading.


Great tip! Thanks!


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## Tradrotis (Feb 28, 2021)

Lots of great videos on youtube - try NocOn


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