# custom vs stock bows



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

On a custom Bow the Bowyer will put a lot more time and effort into his build so build quality is much better, normally this also equates to a faster more stable Bow.

Some off the peg Bows can be real shooters to, so I wouldn't write them off


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, it isn't so simple as stock vs. custom. The gamut is wider than that. There are a wide range of options including


Factory bows

Factory bows with custom options

Handmade bows

Handmade bows with custom options

True custom bows built from scratch to a completely new design

And within those categories you have a wide range of levels of quality. You can get low and high end factory bows and low and high end handmade bows, and the engineering and workmanship can vary widely.

Ordering a hand made bow customized to your specs, in draw weight, length and materials you can get a bow that suits your tastes and shooting style. Generally, a "custom" bow is a stock design by a bowyer for which they will adjust to your needs, but with a proven design at it's heart--so that the basics are already well developed and tested. You probably wouldn't want a true "custom" scratch designed bow as it might take a couple of prototypes to get the new design to optimal performance, and you might not like it even then. 

And, of course, you may be able to find a stock bow that happens to match your needs. 

So, I think you are asking two questions. What is the advantage of ordering a bow tailored to your preferences in terms of length, draw weight, grip, etc. and what is the advantage of a high quality, high end bow (be it factory or hand made) vs. a lower end bow.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I have both. Stock bows, like my Viper, can draw and shoot pretty smoothly. However, a real custom, like my Jim Ploem Nova, seem to have all the points at a 9 or 10, draw, no stack, smooth, no shock, quiet, all seem to just be in sync, where my viper is smooth, just not quite a 10, no stack, that is a 10, a little shock, maybe an 8, pretty quiet, maybe also an 8, and pretty much in sync, just well.... you can sense in a good custom bow that all the detail has had attention.

Now taking the Samick versus a custom, IN MY OPINION, buy ANY other good bow if you've the money, or buy something like a Dorado or Gamemaster, Hatfield, or Bear. Apparently the Samick has improved a lot since my experiences with them, but if you've the financial option, I'd not start there.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Like anything else you need to shop around but know exactly what you want. My favorite style of Recurve is the 50's style. There are many differences with this style of bow. If you look at my Great Northern Ghost, it looks very plain, my Toelke Chinook looks much fancier. Both perform equally well. I would not hesitate to reach for either one. Look many custom shops are putting out bows that look real good but the performance isn't any better than a factory. The Hoyt Dorado, Gamemaster, Martin Hatfield are bow that I've shot and can say put the arrow where you want it to go as long as you do your part. On the flip side there are custom bows like Black Widow, built like a tank, ACS bows perform fantastically, Saluki exotic but kick ass, many others as well. You really need to shop hard. Either way save your pennies because the price on a really good factory or custom is way up there. Don't think your going to be able to buy something real cheap and consider it A1.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Well it really comes down to how well a bow fits you.If you pick one up and like the way it shoots for you it really does not matter how or who built it.When you take away the eye candy the only thing that really matters about a bow is how it shoots for you.I have had some of both I really liked and some I would not give you $20 for.Shoot all the bows you can every time you get a chance and you will find what works for you.Don't get caught up in brands and you will be a lot better off on the course and in the woods when the time comes. jmo


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

This is going to have to be one thread where I'll disagree with my friend Mr. Morley. While a "custom" bow made by a real custom bowyer may have more time put into each bow, overall the major players in the "production" arena have a heck of a lot more time and money put into the total bow "package". 

Most custom bowyers these days are mom and pop shops, a lot of times working out of their basements, garages or barns by themselves or with a few helpers. There's no way they are going to have the time, equipment or $$$ to do the R and D that companies like Hoyt, WW, Samick, Martin, even BW, etc do. Sure, you might get a one-off type of bow, if that's what you're looking for and yes, odds are it will be a shooter.

Warbow gave a more detailed breakdown of what may define a custom bow. So you have to decide what really is going to float YOUR boat, but keep those distinctions in mind.

As far as being really custom FOR YOU, your not going beat a PRODUCTION ILF type bow. No, you won't get exotic woods or fancy veneers, but you can get any weight you want and then modify that within a few pounds at will. Ditto for just about any length and with most, even change grip styles and shapes in a couple of minutes. If you want more or less centershot, that's adjustable too, as is tiller, if you think you need to do that. (Sure, a custom bowyer can do that for you too, but once done, the only way you can change it is with a rasp.) As far as quality goes, just remember that the bows used in the Olympics ARE technically production bows. 

Since you mentioned hunting, the "production" bows I'm talking about are things like the 3R Dalaa and TT Titan, etc. Also, and don't mean to piss any body off (too much), but given that most hunting shots are under 20 yds, the difference between a stellar bow and a "good" or decent bow may be more in the eye of the beholder than the placement of the arrow.)

In the end, you have to understand what you're really paying for and as I said, what will float YOUR boat.

Viper1 out.


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## flatbow1 (May 3, 2009)

What Viper1 said........I've found what he said to be true, I've owned a lot of both. A lot of times you're just paying for the extra cosmetics. My brother just bought a Belcher Longhorn, it's the base bow he offers at 495.00 , and it shoots REALLY GOOD. You dont have to spend a small fortune to get a good bow. Custom does'nt necessarily mean a better bow.....what ever you get my advice is to try it first if you can.


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

I would say with most factory bows it can be a crap shoot on the poundage and stacking,and overall quality.Customs are more consistent in quality and specs. And you get it your way.:wink:


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## dabersold (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks guys - great advise from everyone. Good shooting.


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## cedarsticks (Sep 10, 2009)

I grew-up shooting Bear recurves, alot and quite well. Since 1991, I have shot nothing but my Brackenbury Legend. IMO, the difference between custom and production bows is akin to the difference between a tailored suit and an S&K special. A production bow probably exists that will work for you as well as anything if you can find it. A custom bow built for you will just fit better.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Over the years, I have owned and shot _production _bows that were/are superb.

The reason I have had bows built is to be tailored specifically to all my personal specifications; grip configuration, draw-length, draw-weight, tillered for 3-under, limb material, etc. Otherwise, I too do not consider that the quality and performance of a custom-made bow _always_ supersedes the quality and performance of a "shelf" bow.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

I love my Samick Volcano and I've never heard any different from other folks...


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## howard hill jr (Aug 21, 2009)

I think Viper is right on. 99.9% of the archers out there can not tell the difference among bows. Most don't even know what stack is because they don't have a long enough draw for it to be important. As far as smooth, I have a Martin that is like velvet and shoots fast. I have a Bear t/d that has been custom tillered and center shot. It shoots extremely well, Its big advantage is that it is not sensitive to change in arrow spine. but when I am tired and not at my best the Martin is eaiser to shoot and it is off the shelf. If you simply can not get what you want in a stock bow or you want a pretty bow or what ever, go custom, I love the custom bows. As far as quality goes, my Bear t/d is 30 years old and has been hauled around and beat up and still shoots like it did 30 years ago. There are a lot of custom bows I would love to have, mainly because of thier look.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

mossanimal said:


> I love my Samick Volcano and I've never heard any different from other folks...


Neither have I, but my personal experience leads me to not RECOMMEND the Samick. Could I be dispensing with bad information? NO. Could I be keeping someone from a potentially good bow? Yes. Could I cause someone to spend more for a bow than he needed to? Yes. But the unassailable fact is this, you might spend more than you expected to sometimes, but that is not ANYWHERE near as bad as not spending ENOUGH.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm wasn't trying to rile ya up Rattus... Just sharing my experiences with that particular bow. I've never tried Samick's other bows. I did a lot of research into the Volcano and people really liked it and I never heard one complaint (unlike the Martin Jaguar!!!!). If I wasn't spending all my money making longbows I would've spent more on a better recurve if nothing else than for a better finish (but I guess I could refinish it myself).... and to support an American bowyer.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

mossanimal said:


> I'm wasn't trying to rile ya up Rattus... Just sharing my experiences with that particular bow. I've never tried Samick's other bows. I did a lot of research into the Volcano and people really liked it and I never heard one complaint (unlike the Martin Jaguar!!!!). If I wasn't spending all my money making longbows I would've spent more on a better recurve if nothing else than for a better finish (but I guess I could refinish it myself).... and to support an American bowyer.


Wasn't riled.... I haven't heard anything bad about Samick recently either and nothing about the volcano. The original question was _"And, are there any significant differences in shooting a high dollar bow vs a cheaper modle like a Samick.?"_

I know you've had great service with your Samick, and others have too.... but nonetheless, my experience would not lead ME to RECOMMEND the Samick. I'd be more inclined to suggest that he look for a good used bow from a mainstream boyer/company even.

Much Aloha....  :beer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom, et al -



> I'd be more inclined to suggest that he look for a good used bow from a mainstream boyer/company even.


Right now, Samick is one of the largest stickbow manufacturers in the world and fairly highly regarded in most FITA circles, were as a lot of "custom" guys we keep hearing about aren't really mentioned outside of the US. (Yes, there IS archery outside the the states.) Their high-end ILF limbs have been world-class for sometime and in more recent years, seems like that's trickled down to their entire line. I don't own any Samicks right now, but I've seen and shot a number of them. Not too shabby at all. and at time quite impressive. Are they THE bow for everyone? Certainly not, but neither is any other bow, no matter how custom or production.

I don't know, but it seems to me that a lot the guys who are head over heels over "custom" bows are the same ones who are content with paper plate sized groups at 17.3 yds. _OK, That probably sounded a lot worse than it was meant, but it has been an observation of mine over recent years._

Viper1 out.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

a large part of the appeal of custom bows are the exotic woods used and the quality of the finish. That is really a large difference between custom and Factory.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom, et al -
> 
> Right now, Samick is one of the largest stickbow manufacturers in the world and fairly highly regarded in most FITA circles, were as a lot of "custom" guys we keep hearing about aren't really mentioned outside of the US. (Yes, there IS archery outside the the states.) Their high-end ILF limbs have been world-class for sometime and in more recent years, seems like that's trickled down to their entire line. I don't own any Samicks right now, but I've seen and shot a number of them. Not too shabby at all. and at time quite impressive. Are they THE bow for everyone? Certainly not, but neither is any other bow, no matter how custom or production.
> 
> ...


We are talking about CHEAP bows here Viper. My experiences with Samick which form the basis of MY OPINIONS are such that I would not RECOMMEND THEM unless there were no other choices for the purchaser financially. 

The question was, _"And, are there any significant differences in shooting a high dollar bow vs a cheaper modle like a Samick. I'll be using the bow for hunting. "_ my answer is going to be the same... based upon MY EXPERIENCE.

I'm not condemning anyone who shoots a Samick. You all should know by now that my experiences are what they are. There are lots of folks here LOVE their Samicks. THEY will recommend the bow to others based upon their experiences, you will RECOMMEND the bow based upon yours. Me... I'm recommending something else as a first choice... I'M BIASED AGAINST THEM. Would you care to see the pictures again?.... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom -

If some one posts that a given bow is great or terrible, that's all well and good. If ten people, or a hundred people concur, even better. Better still is if someone who's opinion I value says something. Also helps to know if a person is biased against something for whatever reason or is being compensated to promote it. The reality is that any bow any of use mention will have it's supporters and it's detractors. 

Look, I have pictures of an $800 custom bow that delaminated after ONE day of shooting (it's the one in my book) and have seen three bows from another well known custom bowyer develop limb cracks within a few months. I also know of a production bow that I used to recommend that has shown a higher than average failure rate in the *last few months*. I won't recommend that bow again until I see (or more accurately don't see) any more reports. 

Stating your opinion is fine, just don't be upset if some folks disagree or have evidence to the contrary. 

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> If some one posts that a given bow is great or terrible, that's all well and good. If ten people, or a hundred people concur, even better. Better still is if someone who's opinion I value says something. Also helps to know if a person is biased against something for whatever reason or is being compensated to promote it. The reality is that any bow any of use mention will have it's supporters and it's detractors.
> 
> ...


Viper...  

I am absolutely NOT UPSET. I acknowledge that there are many here who love their Samick bows. I don't condemn anyone who shoots the Samick either. If that is what it takes to get into archery for someone, I'm THE LAST PERSON to deny someone the joys of our sport.

Speaking of your book, I'd like to get two copies of it so if you'd be kind enough to PM with how I might do that, I'd be grateful.

Much Aloha, Tom....  :beer:


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Tom, et al -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Viper1, are you saying that the ilf bows are that much more accurate? I ask cause I am contemplating a new bow.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SE - 

Unless a bow physically changes during a shooting session, it can be neither accurate nor inaccurate by itself. That means that out of a shooting machine a $10 (or whatever they cost these days) solid fiberglass bow will shoot as well as a world class Olympic bow. 

When adding a human factor, things change. While the concept of a custom bow that fits a shooter makes perfect sense, the fact is that we are all works in progress. With most custom wood bows, as you /your shooting evolves you really can't change the bow.

Now, going back to what I said earlier: 



Viper1 said:


> As far as being really custom FOR YOU, your not going beat a PRODUCTION ILF type bow. No, you won't get exotic woods or fancy veneers, but you can get any weight you want and then modify that within a few pounds at will. Ditto for just about any length and with most, even change grip styles and shapes in a couple of minutes. If you want more or less centershot, that's adjustable too, as is tiller, if you think you need to do that. (Sure, a custom bowyer can do that for you too, but once done, the only way you can change it is with a rasp.) As far as quality goes, just remember that the bows used in the Olympics ARE technically production bows.


So, if you believe that a custom fit will allow you to shoot more accurately, then YES an ILF rig with the above adjustments will be more accurate in your hands. 

The other part of the equation is that a lot of ILF risers are metal. While that might not seem "trad", metal usually doesn't change in regards to temp/humidity etc, so that's a plus too. And depending on what you can / want to spend, yes, you can get some of the best limbs going. 

That's the tech stuff and while true, the flip side is the question: is your shooting ability or the situations to shoot/hunt going to allow YOU to take advantage of the above? That's not a slur, just reality. In the close-in world of a lot of trad bowhunters some of the stuff just doesn't matter.

LOL, and you thought it was going to be a yes or no answer !!! 

Viper1 out.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Viper I see your point but still stick with mine. I did also say some stock Bows can be real shooters, ILF being the best example of this.

Another factor comparing stock against custom Bows is having a custom Bow made to suit your shooting style (more important with Trad Bows) can add something that cant easily be measured and will only show up in improved scores, that is the confidence a custom fit Bow gives the Archer, they say 70% of shooting is in the mind, I believe this is the biggest difference between custom and stock Bows.

As somebody pointed out the average archer wont really notice the difference but the top shooters I think become more fickle and need some belief that their equipment is going to give them the best setup for them and those couple of points that make the difference between 1st and 3rd, again more important with something like a Longbow or Trad Recurve, ILF technology has allowed these bows to be very adjustable but I bet if you put 10 ILF limbs all marked up the same on one Riser they wouldn't all shoot\feel the same.

I wonder if any top Oly shooters are reading this topic as I would like to know if the ILF Bows they shoot are exactly the same as the shop bought bow or did they get a specially selected Bow and limbs direct from the factory?


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

dabersold said:


> Hello - I'm a new poster here and have a question. What are the REAL differences (besides the shear beauty) in spending the money for a custom recurve vs buying a stock bow? And, are there any significant differences in shooting a high dollar bow vs a cheaper modle like a Samick. I'll be using the bow for hunting. Thanks, I look forward to your response.


Short answer, not all that much of a practical difference (if any) IMHO. A Chevy will get you from point A to point B just as well as a Porshe will; a $1,200 dollar Widow won't kill a deer any deader than a $300 Bear.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Steve - 

There was a guy a while back who posted that "top" Olympic shooters had specially made or hand selected bows. You might want to check with limbwalker (John Magera) on that. When he was in the Olympics most of his stuff was 10 years old. 

I'm sure the top guys today DO carefully pick their equipment and won't shoot anything that doesn't feel right, but other than that, the other claims are smoke and mirrors to the best of my knowledge. One of the big selling points with ILF metal risers and carbon limbs is that tolerances are much more precise than can be obtained with wood. Therefore, the odds on getting two bows to shoot and feel exactly the same are greatly enhanced. Another reason why I personally don't go for one-off or custom bows. If my go-to bow gets run over by a truck, I need to know that it's replacement will be damn near identical. That's a lot easier without "natural" materials. Also makes setting up an identical "back-up" bow a lot easier. LOL, people figured that out over 40 years ago!!!

The other problem I see is the old "what do the top guys do" thing. Steve YOU ARE one of the TOP GUYS. The rest of us ain't. While having what the top guys have may give us a psychological boost and certainly wouldn't hurt anything (except our bank accounts), the odds are we'll never realize any difference. 

Here's an example: A new or "untrained" shooter having a custom grip made to fit his hand is a total waste of money (IMHO). His grip is still evolving. What works, or what he thinks works this week may not work next month or next year. 

If someone really is into the fancy exotic woods and furniture-like finishes, that's great, but in the end it doesn't make the bow shoot one bit better. A $12.000 shotgun is still just a pipe wearing fancy clothes. 

Now, it there's a psychological (placebo) effect going on, and it works, I'm all for it.

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Traditional Archery is easy for me. Strive to be the best with what I have on hand, but also strive to know _when_ what I have on hand is not the best, at least, not the best for me.

This is not a process of decision making; it is a slow process of learning me and my relationship to archery. IOW, knowing what bow to own is a learned process. 

Early on, had I jumped ahead on this learning curve, no doubt, I would own a bunch of pretty yet useless bows - useless for me that is.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Steve -
> 
> If someone really is into the fancy exotic woods and furniture-like finishes, that's great, but in the end it doesn't make the bow shoot one bit better. A $12.000 shotgun is still just a pipe wearing fancy clothes.
> Viper1 out.


This statement is as far from being accurate as it could be. There is a world of difference between firearms and muzzleloaders, which I dabble, in function and accuracy. Feed, speed, accuracy, handling, pointability, sight picture, weight, recoil, all play a part in the final product and there is a HUGE difference between a pipe and a work of art designed for the shooter. There may be less of a difference between bows, but we have all struggled with dull knives, and until you have shaved sashimi with a truely sharp fish knife, you wouldn't understand.

Quality MAKES a difference, whether bow, knife, firearm or automobile. No question, we can all make do, but to say that it doesn't matter is only kidding oneself.

Aloha... Tom


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom - 

Keep believing that, it keeps a lot of people in business and certainly fostered by most manufactures. 

Sorry, Tom but there's a really big difference between a well designed (as in functional) shotgun and delicate hand checkering / gold inlays - which is where the real money is going. Believe what you like, but too many trap and skeet matches have been won with what you might consider "crap" guns. There IS a difference in quality, but I'd rather pay for something that "works better - FOR ME" rather than just looks better. I've seen enough Mossbergs balanced and fitted to *work* as well as guns costing 20 times as much. 



> and until you have shaved sashimi with a truely sharp fish knife, you wouldn't understand.


I have no intention of shaving sashimi, so my own ineptness at sharpening blades suffices. That, my friend, was my point. btw - You posting that is a classic debating tactic of changing the topic to a seemingly similar analogy which is in fact unrelated. The sashimi knife needs to be sharp, the shotgun doesn't need stock inlays.

In short, there is a difference between a world-class rig and an entry level one, but there aren't many shooters who are going to be able to exploit those differences - paying for something that can't be used is like buying the aforementioned $12,000 shotgun, when a $1,200 one will do the exact same thing, yes, even without the hand checkering and gold inlays. We're going to have to disagree on this. 

Viper1 out.


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## howard hill jr (Aug 21, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> SE -
> 
> Unless a bow physically changes during a shooting session, it can be neither accurate nor inaccurate by itself. That means that out of a shooting machine a $10 (or whatever they cost these days) solid fiberglass bow will shoot as well as a world class Olympic bow.
> 
> ...


Well said Viper,

accuracy is in the hands of the shooter. When I hear one bow is more accurate than another, I wonder how much real quality experience the reporter has and how much he is being paid to report on a particular bow.

One bow is eaiser for "Me" to shoot than another or one bow will be more forgiving of spine than another but the fact is a cheap 30# bow will shoot an arrow of 50# spine to the same point time after time. I may not be where you want it to go but it will go to the same place.
I think the question should be which bow can "I" shoot most accurately.
answer: Any if you learn to shoot.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Quality design will create a more stable bow. This is what separates the wannabes and the true custom bowyer. There is much to be said about a bowyer who not only puts together a sweet looking bow, but one that works with you. Let's not forget that custom shops will listen to you and help get the bow to be as perfect a fit as possible. Your not going to get that from a factory bow.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> Keep believing that, it keeps a lot of people in business and certainly fostered by most manufactures.
> 
> ...


Viper... 

I'm really sorry to have to disagree. What you are saying is only partially true. The difference between the accuracy of target rifle and a hunting rifle whether a pellet gun or a 22 or .223 is noticeable and defineable. Trigger pull, feed and cycling makes a difference. The fact that you are obviously not a gun person is ok, but a competition gun and its function versus standard fare is night and day. I'm sorry.

I used to sell a muzzleloader manufactured by Doc White. The accuracy, the loadability and repeatability of the White has garnered a cult following... Why... because of the quality, ease of loading, and most important, a twist and caliber matched for accuracy. 

There are lots of accurate guns, but few other muzzleloaders if any, can put 30 rounds into a target bull at 80 yards in less than 30 minutes.

Quality MAKES a differnce. Sure, the shooter is 90% of the shot, but it's the gun that makes the x ring. 

Aloha... Tom


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom -

With all due respect, I have Masters ratings in both NRA Conventional and International HP rifle. Also have a "little" experience with benchrest, so I think I have an idea of what works and what doesn't. You see, I do know the difference, and I also know when someone is trying to change or divert the topic because he's running out of answers. 

Believe whatever you like. This thread was about bows. The reference I made to shotguns was accurate - it's a pipe and nothing more. Rifles are a different story and not for this forum. I think this one has run it's course, at least with me.

BTW - the difference is as simple as honing a sear and hand checkering a stock. One has an effect on the shot, the other is window dressing. 

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> With all due respect, I have Masters ratings in both NRA Conventional and International HP rifle. Also have a "little" experience with benchrest, so I think I have an idea of what works and what doesn't. You see, I do know the difference, and I also know when someone is trying to change or divert the topic because he's running out of answers.
> 
> ...


Viper... for a guy with all of your credentials to say that a 12000 shotgun is a $300 pipe with engraving is ludicrous and I'm actually surprised you'd stand behind that statement without admitting maybe you sorta overblew your example. 

I'm not here to argue with Viper, but you know, with your credential, that feed, extraction, trigger pull, balance, weight, with rifling, without rifling all make a difference, recoil, pointability, all matter and aren't found often in your "$300 pipe".

Aloha...


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> all matter and aren't found often in your "$300 pipe".
> 
> Aloha...


$120.00 more and you have a Remington 870 w/a 18 barrel to use for home defense or whatever. Not very expensive for what many consider to be the best combat shotgun ever made and the one that all others are judged by. BTW,my 870 has the 2 shot extension. LOL


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I've shot a lotta bows in my 49 years, and there are some great production bows out there, but the finest bows I have shot have all come from small time bowyers, and yes some were eye candy, but they were all extremely fine shooters as well, and to me that's what makes the difference, it is possible to have both, but the fellas that make them you will seldom see advertising anywhere, word of mouth works just fine for them as quality is more important than quantity to those that build with heart and sole over those who's main focus is the almighty dollar, there is a difference, but to find it you have to search these fellas out........to me the finest production bow will never hold a candle to one built by a true artist with one pair of hands, one pair of eyes, and a desire to build from the heart......oh and I don't drive a chevy either.... a kustom one off hot rod for me, a custom white muzzy, and play custom guitars too.... all built by fellas in a small time shop, garage or yes even in a barn...................


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

AKM said:


> $120.00 more and you have a Remington 870 w/a 18 barrel to use for home defense or whatever. Not very expensive for what many consider to be the best combat shotgun ever made and the one that all others are judged by. BTW,my 870 has the 2 shot extension. LOL


 No question... and I have one of them too. One of the lightest shotguns I own as well, especially compared to my Mossberg 500.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Orion Major (Oct 20, 2006)

So much for staying in the same ballpark as the original post


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> I've shot a lotta bows in my 49 years, and there are some great production bows out there, but the finest bows I have shot have all come from small time bowyers, and yes some were eye candy, but they were all extremely fine shooters as well, and to me that's what makes the difference, it is possible to have both, but the fellas that make them you will seldom see advertising anywhere, word of mouth works just fine for them as quality is more important than quantity to those that build with heart and sole over those who's main focus is the almighty dollar, there is a difference, but to find it you have to search these fellas out........to me the finest production bow will never hold a candle to one built by a true artist with one pair of hands, one pair of eyes, and a desire to build from the heart......oh and I don't drive a chevy either.... a kustom one off hot rod for me, a custom white muzzy, and play custom guitars too.... all built by fellas in a small time shop, garage or yes even in a barn...................


We're a conspiracy ..... :grin:

Aloha...  :beer:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

steve morley said:


> On a custom Bow the Bowyer will put a lot more time and effort into his build so build quality is much better, normally this also equates to a faster more stable Bow.
> 
> Some off the peg Bows can be real shooters to, so I wouldn't write them off


That pretty much sums it up, and from a guy with a proven track record of success. 

With regard to Samick, I'm sure their ILF stuff is exceptional. But their "traditional" bows are of extremely low quality (and that's being generous). Comparing Samick's ILF equipment to their trad equipment would be like comparing a Lexus to a Yugo. And to say their trad stuff is as good as most custom bows on the market? Well, that shows a lack of knowledge in both areas.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes Rattus58, I guess we are, because we know what we like and we know what works best for us....... and that's really what matters here, we are all a bit different , we don't drive the same cars, or marry the same type women, and we don't prefer the same bows, we are drawn to some for looks, and to others for performance, and some, like the women we have chosen, have both....we each need to make the choices for ourselves, opinions on threads like this can give us some much needed direction, and that's a good thing, but they need to be taken with a grain of salt, because what's Ideal for one may not be the best for another...........myself, due to my neck issues and the titanium plate in it, makes me very suseptible to any hand shock at all, and when I shoot a bow ,with some, I feel what I equate to a small electric shock, believe me I've shot some fine customs and some production bows that really lit me up, and I've also shot some of each that were smooth as silk, but as in my post above, for me I've had more success with the small "ma & Pa" custom shops, but that's just me, and my opinion, you may find your holy grail made by a big company, and that's cool too, heck one of the best I have shot is an old Mamba recurve that I reworked for a friend, maybe one of these days he'll get tired of me bothering him about it and sell it to me...... it truly is smooth as silk.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

The problem with threads like these or any "which is best" thread is that it always boils down to people's opinions and half of the time the guys new to the forum have no idea who the people posting are or why that are saying what they are saying. 

Just a few closing thoughts from my end:

1. A number of years ago, I posted on another forum that Samicks high-end stuff was stellar, but some of their entry level stuff was somewhat lacking. The key phrase there was "a number of years ago". While I don't own or sell them, I have shot them over the years and have seen a notable improvement. IMHO, FWIW, for the money you could do a lot worse and for 3 times the money, not do much better. 

2. (This may piss a few people off). It still seems strange to me that a number of "trad" guys who are happy with a 6 - 8" groups under 20-25 yds are more concerned with "quality of workmanship" (whatever that means) than the guys *needing* 6-8" groups at 70M and farther who are using effectively off the shelf production bows. 

So sure, do whatever keeps you happy, just keep it real so as not to mislead the new guys.

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> 2. (This may piss a few people off). It still seems strange to me that a number of "trad" guys who are happy with a 6 - 8" groups under 20-25 yds are more concerned with "quality of workmanship" (whatever that means) than the guys *needing* 6-8" groups at 70M and farther who are using effectively off the shelf production bows.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Their "off the shelf production bows" are top end Olympic rigs, often costing far more than what most custom traditional bows sell for. Do you actually think people are shooting FITA rounds with Martin Hunters and Samick Deerslayers. If not, I'll ask you to take your previous advice..."just keep it real so as not to mislead the new guys.."


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Das*

Do you guys consider the DAS a custom or a factory. I believe right now they are being made by 3 Rivers. So if it's a Factory bow, I'd say the difference between custom and factory are pretty slim.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

LS - 

The DAS is a production bow in the same way that an Olympic rig is a production bow. The all start out the same. The feature that makes them "custom" is that the user can customize the *tuning* to his needs or preferences. 

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

As for my "off the shelf", "mid-line" traditional bow:

"This year at the NAA and FITA Star Flight Championships on the Bonneville Salt Flats Flight Range A Martin bow crushed the flight record. While testing the prototype of the _*Savannah Longbow, Larry broke the National and World Flight Record by surpassing the old mark by a whopping 25 yards.*_ Larry has been the General Manager of the Martin Traditional Plant for 42 years. World Record Holder Larry Hatfield has dedicated his career to the quality of Martin’s Traditional Line. His 42 years at Martin Archery has kept the traditional Bowyer’s art alive, so you can have the best bow available."


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

*Original question*



dabersold said:


> Hello - I'm a new poster here and have a question. What are the REAL differences (besides the shear beauty) in spending the money for a custom recurve vs buying a stock bow? And, are there any significant differences in shooting a high dollar bow vs a cheaper modle like a Samick. I'll be using the bow for hunting. Thanks, I look forward to your response.


In the case of my longbow, Yes. It smokes the mass produced models #for# of draw weight. Laboratory testing proved has this. In the case of many Black widow recurves I have shot over the years- They all shot where I was looking. I have never experienced that with any other bow. Should you buy this or that model? Get what you like, can afford, and makes you happy. You are only here for a short time and you might as well enjoy every moment. Good luck. Dave

P.S. My Longbow is an ACS CX in case you were curious.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

I imagine if you spray painted a number of bows black and put them in a pile many would be real surprised at what they thought was the better shooting bow.Without the pretty wood and a name on the bottom limb they would be judged by shooting quality instead of looks or reputation.That is the way I pick bows anyway...by the way they shoot so factory or custom makes no difference to me.It all comes back to the sound,feel and shot. jmo


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Samick*

Hey

where the Samick bashing go :wink:

fyi,
All of the Tradtech gear I'm told is being made by Samick. I've never heard anyone complain about the limbs or risers having issues. I know that doesn't mean much, but from the people I've bumped into at shoots they love their TradTech gear.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

The TradTech limbs are Samick ILF models, which as many have pointed out, are among the best in the world. The Titan riser is not made by Samick, but rather made here in America. The Pinnacle riser is made by Samick, but as per TradTech’s specs, and I know the folks at TradTech have demanded a lot of small improvements into that riser to get it where it is today.

I own a Titan. It’s my primary go-to bow. In my opinion, the best think TradTech did was to dump Samick as the grip manufacturer and get someone else. The original grips were horrible, didn’t fit right and looked like they’d been finished with a rasp. The new ones are top notch and more in line with a riser of that high quality.

I understand that Samick has a new line of traditional bows in the pipeline that TradTech will have exclusive rights to. According to Lee, the bows are being made and remade over and over again at TradTech’s direction in order to get them up to snuff. Based on what I saw at Comptons, the quality of these new models is miles ahead of Samick’s other traditional offerings. But the traditional bows Samick has made on their own? Unfortunately, the quality is still very poor indeed.


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

Jamesw said:


> I imagine if you spray painted a number of bows black and put them in a pile many would be real surprised at what they thought was the better shooting bow.Without the pretty wood and a name on the bottom limb they would be judged by shooting quality instead of looks or reputation.That is the way I pick bows anyway...by the way they shoot so factory or custom makes no difference to me.It all comes back to the sound,feel and shot. jmo


Exactly right. As a matter of fact my first Black widow was painted black. I bought it for the reasons you stated. Good shooting folks. Dave


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Although my bow is a custom....it wasn't (the riser and limbs I'm currently hunting with) weren't custom built FOR ME. I bought it used.

Do I think there are "production" bows out there that I could shoot as well as this one? I'm sure there are. But some of the customizations to my recurve make it special (checkered grip, for one).


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -



Jamesw said:


> I imagine if you spray painted a number of bows black and put them in a pile many would be real surprised at what they thought was the better shooting bow.Without the pretty wood and a name on the bottom limb they would be judged by shooting quality instead of looks or reputation.That is the way I pick bows anyway...by the way they shoot so factory or custom makes no difference to me.It all comes back to the sound,feel and shot. jmo


Bada bing, bada bang, bada boom ...

Yup. I'm still amazed at how many bows I thought were "garbage" 30 years ago turned out to be excellent shooters today. The fact remains that there are so few "bad" bows out there, most of this discussion is pointless. If guys think they are getting a more efficient bow for $800 than for $200, they should really be looking at what distances they are shooting and what size groups they are expecting. 

Just for giggles here's a run down of bow qualities:

Stability (torsional)- One of my favorites. I'm willing to bet less than 1% of trad archers could tell the difference between a bow with more or less torsional stability. (Other than the manufacturer/bowyer telling them how stable they bows are.)

Stability (in the hand) - A factor or mass and balance. Before all this back to "trad" stuff, that was handled by adding a short hunting stab, if the natural balance of a bow didn't suit you. A good bowyer will know to make the lower riser heavier than the upper. 

Shooting where you're pointing/looking - Good one! That's more of a factor of tuning than a property of the bow. When setting up back-up bows, I regularly tune them to shoot to the same point of impact. (Up and down is controlled by nocking point placement and left and right by spine manipulation.)

Stacking - Real issue, but only if the bow stacks before YOUR full draw length. A bow with a brick wall stack at 30" doesn't matter to a guy with a 28" draw. 

Fit and finish - Presonal call. Not sure I'd want to go into the field with a piece of furniture; I'd be too worried about scratching it up.

Appearance, grip etc - all very subjective. (See my comments on metal risers with interchangeable grips in a previous post.)

Smoothness - see stacking 

Speed - one of the few quantifiable properties. With a given weight arrow draw to a given length all you need is a chronograph to tell see which bow is "faster". Welcome back to the real world. The difference between a 160 fps bow and a 190 fps bow really isn't an issue with the 20 yd and under crowd. Sure, faster is better, but is it necessary? It DOES become a factor when you're trying to reach 90M before you run out of sight bar.

Guys, you do what ever floats your boat. The idea of buying a "custom" bow for $600 - over $1000 isn't for me, not when you can get a used Olympic/ILF rig or Warf for less than half that and even most entry level bows, like the Samick that started this thread have built up a pretty good following in recent years. 

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> The difference between a 160 fps bow and a 190 fps bow really isn't an issue with the 20 yd and under crowd.


Sure, why would a bowhunter want to get about 20% additional energy for the same draw weight? It's not like they're trying to shoot through an animal or something. I respect the fact that you don't hunt and have never killed anything with archery equipment, but trust me on this, animals are more difficult to penetrate than paper.


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Sure, why would a bowhunter want to get about 20% additional energy for the same draw weight? It's not like they're trying to shoot through an animal or something. I respect the fact that you don't hunt and have never killed anything with archery equipment, but trust me on this, animals are more difficult to penetrate than paper.


any 650 or 700 gr arrow moving at 150 fps with a single bevel head will kill any animal in north america. With that said I would prefer 190fps over 160fps but I doubt you'll get 190 from any custom or production bow shooting that weight arrow unless its way up in pounds.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SE - 

*BINGO*. (tho I'm not sure you'd even NEED that heavy an arrow  all of mine were in the 500 - 525 gr range and don't recall any bouncing out...)

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> SE -
> 
> *BINGO*. (tho I'm not sure you'd even NEED that heavy an arrow  all of mine were in the 500 - 525 gr range and don't recall any bouncing out...)
> 
> Viper1 out.


That's like me saying I don't recall ever losing the Kentucky Derby.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

screamingeagle said:


> any 650 or 700 gr arrow moving at 150 fps with a single bevel head will kill any animal in north america. With that said I would prefer 190fps over 160fps but I doubt you'll get 190 from any custom or production bow shooting that weight arrow unless its way up in pounds.


Very true. But why are some people switching to 650-plus-grain arrows and single bevel heads? The quest for greater penetration. So then a 20% increase in energy with the same draw weight would also be advantageous to that end.

I've never known anyone who's said they wanted to go out and buy the slowest, least efficient hunting bow they could find.


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

> So then a 20% increase in energy with the same draw weight would also be advantageous to that end.


True. But how are you going to get that 20% greater efficiency? A custom bow?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> True. But how are you going to get that 20% greater efficiency? A custom bow?


I may be wrong, but I assumed that JW is referring to _penetration_ energy.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

screamingeagle said:


> True. But how are you going to get that 20% greater efficiency? A custom bow?


Not necessarily. I've shot custom bows that were screaming fast and forgiving, and I've shot some that were complete slugs. There are some fast and forgiving production bows as well. As a matter of fact, some of the faster bows out there are actually production bows. 

But this particular line of discussion isn’t about custom versus production. It’s about whether or not a 20% increase in efficiency (all else being equal) is beneficial to a bowhunter. 

If all a person is going to do is punch indoor paper at their local archery shop, they would probably feel that arrow speed is irrelevant. Back when I shot NFAA indoors competitively, slow and inefficient was fine with me since it got my point of aim up and on the target itself without string waking. 

But for a hunting bow, why would a person load up the most efficient arrow they could find and then purposely shoot it out of a bow that was 20% less efficient than other bows of similar style, all else being equal?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Very true. But why are some people switching to 650-plus-grain arrows and single bevel heads? The quest for greater penetration. So then a 20% increase in energy with the same draw weight would also be advantageous to that end.
> 
> I've never known anyone who's said they wanted to go out and buy the slowest, least efficient hunting bow they could find.


+1!!!

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> But for a hunting bow, why would a person load up the most efficient arrow they could find and then purposely shoot it out of a bow that was 20% less efficient than other bows of similar style, all else being equal?


It's just personal preference.

It could be based on looks. How well they could shoot it, sentimental value or any other number of reasons.

Having a sound understanding of archery physics or following the opinions of other more experienced hunters...allows a bowhunter to compensate with less efficient equipment and still be effective.

Ray


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

WindWalker said:


> I may be wrong, but I assumed that JW is referring to _penetration_ energy.


ok fine, but in order to get that greater penetration energy he is saying you need a faster bow. If you have two 50 pound bows and one shots at 190 and the other 160 isn't the bow shooting at 190 also more efficient? 

My question is how do you get that? Can you only get that through a custom bow?



> Originally Posted by steve morley View Post
> On a custom Bow the Bowyer will put a lot more time and effort into his build so build quality is much better, normally this also equates to a faster more stable Bow.
> 
> Some off the peg Bows can be real shooters to, so I wouldn't write them off
> ...


It would appear that is exactly what one must do, buy a custom bow if you want any kind of speed or energy behind your arrow. Even though in 2007 at the NAA and FITA Star Flight Championships on the Bonneville Salt Flats Flight Range in the US, a Martin Savannah crushed the flight record. While testing the prototype of the Savannah Longbow, Larry Hatfield broke the US National and World Flight Record by surpassing the old mark by a whopping 25 yards. The Savannah, a production bow.


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

> But for a hunting bow, why would a person load up the most efficient arrow they could find and then purposely shoot it out of a bow that was 20% less efficient than other bows of similar style, all else being equal?


Then the answer is to review all the test reports on the bows you are interested in and only consider those that are the fastest whether its a custom or production bow.

thanks


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's just personal preference.
> 
> It could be based on looks. How well they could shoot it, sentimental value or any other number of reasons.
> 
> ...


Ray,

Key words: "all else being equal."


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

screamingeagle said:


> Then the answer is to review all the test reports on the bows you are interested in and only consider those that are the fastest whether its a custom or production bow.


I disagree.

The answer lies within understanding what your chosen equipment is capable of and what is needed to effectively kill the animal you are hunting and than make the proper choices to effectively do that.

A bowhunter doesn't need the fastest or most effcient bow to do that.

Ray


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

screamingeagle said:


> ok fine, but in order to get that greater penetration energy he is saying you need a faster bow. If you have two 50 pound bows and one shots at 190 and the other 160 isn't the bow shooting at 190 also more efficient?
> 
> My question is how do you get that? Can you only get that through a custom bow?


Steve addressed that already when he said, _"Some off the peg Bows can be real shooters to, so I wouldn't write them off."_

I also adresssed it as well when I answered you by saying, _"As a matter of fact, some of the faster bows out there are actually production bows."_


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Ray,
> 
> Key words: "all else being equal."


Of 'similar style'...doesn't necessarily mean that 'all else being equal'.

Maybe I'm lost on what EXACTLY you are trying to say.

IMO...either way...it will still come down to personal preference....even if all other things are equal in regards to looks and craftmanship.

It's not much different than why some people use a certain gun over another, use a particular compound bow and or a particular self bow.

Like I said...there can be deeper reasons why someone chooses a less efficient bow over another.

It could be because it's the bow their father used or it's the bow someone they admire uses for examples.

Ray


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Then the answer is to review all the test reports on the bows you are interested in and only consider those that are the fastest whether its a custom or production bow


Somewhat, but too narrow. Speed is a crucial consideration, but there are variables that come into play that are respective to the individual shooter.


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

well guys, I am completely confused now 

I guess I'll just keep hunting with my spear and don't worry about it.

cheers :cocktail:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

screamingeagle said:


> I guess I'll just keep hunting with my spear and don't worry about it.


Got any pics or vids? That would be AWESOME! 

Ray


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I guess I'll just keep hunting with my spear and don't worry about it.


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Got any pics or vids? That would be AWESOME!
> 
> Ray


LOL, no I was joking, but I did know a guy once that wanted to do it bad. 

but custom verses production. When I first got into traditional I bought a 200 dollar kit bow because it was all I could afford. I then proceeded to take the biggest deer I have ever killed with a bow. Since then I have tried many custom and production bows in the quest for speed and accuracy. Today, I sure do wish I had that kit bow, it was as good as any of em. It wasn't the fastest and not even close to pretty, probably like that piece of junk samick, but I sure could shoot it.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

LOL - It's so cool that all I have to is sit back, let folks just debate long enough and ultimately repeat what I said originally ... :darkbeer:

Viper1 out.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Now that we're debating killing performance, the question is "Does Speed Kill". I was always under the impression that a true flying heavy arrow contributes more than speed. After all if you can get your bow to shoot a heavy arrow in tune, isn't that the objective in a hunting bow. A faster arrow does not really mean an arrow that has much oomph behind it. I'll leave the physics to the pros to explain this better. I look for a bow that doesn't shy away from heavy arrows, maintains good cast and is dead quiet. Whether or not that is custom or not who cares, the performance of the particular bow will answer the question better than me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LongStick64 said:


> Now that we're debating killing performance, the question is "Does Speed Kill".


Yes....Speed can kill...because it produces energy.

Speed is factored into equations to determine Momentum, Kenetic Energy and Kinetic Pulse, which can ALL be beneficial to an archer trying to scientifically understand how an arrow penetrates using energy.

But....speed is NOT the ONLY factor used in those equations.



LongStick64 said:


> After all if you can get your bow to shoot a heavy arrow in tune, isn't that the objective in a hunting bow.


Combined it with accuracy and quietness...and I think you're dead on.

Ray


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> It's so cool that all I have to is sit back, let folks just debate long enough and ultimately repeat what I said originally ...


Bit of false ego showing.....


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## flatbow1 (May 3, 2009)

[=Viper1;1055611303]Gents -





> Bada bing, bada bang, bada boom ...
> 
> Yup. I'm still amazed at how many bows I thought were "garbage" 30 years ago turned out to be excellent shooters today. The fact remains that there are so few "bad" bows out there, most of this discussion is pointless. If guys think they are getting a more efficient bow for $800 than for $200, they should really be looking at what distances they are shooting and what size groups they are expecting.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


_After 16 years of bow-hoping and owning several custom bows, I believe Viper1 is dead on the money.....Iv'e learned this the hard and expensive way. If I wanted a good recurve, example : Quinn Stallion 250.00, Warf, Hoyt Excell, Maddog, Samick, and I dont have to spend 800.00 dollars_.


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

Seems to me that if raw speed and performance were all that mattered for a hunting bow, we'd all be shooting compounds. Speed in and of itself doesn't kill; in this context the killing act is the province of the broadhead, as well as the mind of the hunter. Arrow speed is but one part of the get the broadhead where it needs to be equation. 

Say hunter A has the choice between 2 bows. First is shooting 190, but it's not tuned, is uncomfortable for him, and sounds like a mack truck. Second bow is shooting a whisper quiet perfectly tuned arrow at 160 and the hunter loves the way the bow feels. Which (in his hands) is the more efficiant hunting bow?

Sure, all things being equal, shooting a heavier faster arrow is preferable. That said, performance numbers have never killed anything.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

> That said, performance numbers have never killed anything.


Well..except for time on the internet.:zip:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

sj - 

Correct, but with a fairly common misconception. It's always assumed (or implied by some folks) that speed, quietness and "fit" are mutually exclusive. Happy, they aren't today and never were. That beings said, I did mention that for most bowhunters taking shots 20 yds and under, the difference between a 160 fps bow and a 190 is basically 0 providing they know how their bows shoot. Way too many animals have been harvested with bows shooting much slower to deny that.

Regarding the marketing aspects, there's another dichotomy: while speed is one of the only quantifiable features of a bow, it's all too common to see bows decked out as chrono-queens to generate "numbers". So, yeah, speed is important to me, but only the speed "I" get with the rig "I'm" using.

Note: regarding the speed thing: a gentlemen on another site posted that he had read somewhere that at 30 yds, misjudging your distance by as little as 2 yds would cause you to miss the vitals on a deer. That sounded strange, so I set up at 30 yds with my target bow (195 fps) and took 3 shots, then stepped back 6 feet and took 3 more using the same sight setting. All six arrows were in the 3" bull, granted some higher than others. (I'll assume the lower ones were from 32 yds). Either way at that speed, I'm not going to worry about misjudging distance by a few yds. Not sure at what speed it would become a factor. BTW - my Warf is a little faster than that 

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> sj -
> 
> Note: regarding the speed thing: a gentlemen on another site posted that he had read somewhere that at 30 yds, misjudging your distance by as little as 2 yds would cause you to miss the vitals on a deer. That sounded strange, so I set up at 30 yds with my target bow (195 fps) and took 3 shots, then stepped back 6 feet and took 3 more using the same sight setting. All six arrows were in the 3" bull, granted some higher than others. (I'll assume the lower ones were from 32 yds). Either way at that speed, I'm not going to worry about misjudging distance by a few yds. Not sure at what speed it would become a factor. BTW - my Warf is a little faster than that
> 
> Viper1 out.


That sounds like a good reason to choose the 190 bow over the 160 one. Quite an advantage for a bowhunter.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> That sounds like a good reason to choose the 190 bow over the 160 one. Quite an advantage for a bowhunter.


Much of this speed talk reminds me of the old days when we mechanics would sit around the lunch table debating horsepower. The real debate matters whether one is discussing a rate of work versus an amount of work that can be done. Like speed, horsepower is a rate. Otherwise, my 150 hp car engine could move 80,000 lbs. down the highway at 70 mph just like a 150 hp diesel can easily do, but it cannot and never will do such, all transmissions aside.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> That sounds like a good reason to choose the 190 bow over the 160 one. Quite an advantage for a bowhunter.


+1

Ray


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> sj -
> 
> Correct, but with a fairly common misconception. It's always assumed (or implied by some folks) that speed, quietness and "fit" are mutually exclusive. Happy, they aren't today and never were. That beings said, I did mention that for most bowhunters taking shots 20 yds and under, the difference between a 160 fps bow and a 190 is basically 0 providing they know how their bows shoot. Way too many animals have been harvested with bows shooting much slower to deny that.
> 
> ...


Well, you're the one with the misconceptions and assuming implications.

I never said that a bow cant be fast, quiet, and fit the hunter well. In my case, the Widow I'll be taking to the woods in 13 days (who's counting) is fast, quiet, and feels great. The point I was trying to make, (tho it was clearly lost in the verbage) is that a wizz bang "high end" / custom bow isn't a requirement for a successful hunt; which is after all, the nuts and bolts of the question posed in this threads OP. 

I stand by what I said in my last post; a hunter is more efficient with a bow he's comfortable with, performance numbers have never killed anything (well, the time caveat not withstanding), it's a well placed broadhead that does the killing, and that all things being equal, a faster bow shooting a heavier arrow is preferable.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

sj_lutz said:


> I never said that a bow cant be fast, quiet, and fit the hunter well. In my case, the Widow I'll be taking to the woods in 13 days (who's counting) is fast, quiet, and feels great. The point I was trying to make, (tho it was clearly lost in the verbage) is that a wizz bang "high end" / custom bow isn't a requirement for a successful hunt; which is after all, the nuts and bolts of the question posed in this threads OP.


:thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> :thumbs_up


+2!

Ray


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

sj -

In that case we're in complete agreement. But that's not the only way it could have been read. Just wanted to make it a little clearer.

Viper1 out.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Note: regarding the speed thing: a gentlemen on another site posted that he had read somewhere that at 30 yds, misjudging your distance by as little as 2 yds would cause you to miss the vitals on a deer. That sounded strange, so I set up at 30 yds with my target bow (195 fps) and took 3 shots, then stepped back 6 feet and took 3 more using the same sight setting. All six arrows were in the 3" bull, granted some higher than others. (I'll assume the lower ones were from 32 yds). Either way at that speed, I'm not going to worry about misjudging distance by a few yds. Not sure at what speed it would become a factor. BTW - my Warf is a little faster than that


Viper1:

I may be wrong, but unless you advise otherwise, I can only conclude that you do not bowhunt. 

In that you profess to be an expert in the sport of archery, I consider your conclusion that you are _"... not going to worry about misjudging distance by a few yds...."_ to be surprising, and completely misleading to the novice _bowhunter._

Your simple experiment was completely unscientific and did not come close to covering the multitude of variables that exist amongst individual bowhunters, the numerous varied setups, and the various conditions that will exist when _bowhunting._

In that I have been an avid bowhunter of various types of game for 45 years, I have to say that I consider it extremely ludicrous that you would shoot just a few arrows from a _personalized target bow _at a static (arrow) target at just ground level under controlled and ideal conditions, and then _imply _that your (unscientific) results prove that one should not be concerned about a misjudgment of distance of a few yards.

Based on experience, I can assure you that under certain circumstances, regardless you are shooting a compound bow or a stickbow, especially a stickbow, a 2-yard misjudgment of distance can not just cause the arrow to miss the (critical) vital area of a deer (9" - 10" diameter), the arrow can miss the entire deer.

Although it commonly difficult to always judge the exact distance, any experienced bowhunter will try his or her best to do so. Most_ bowhunters _I have known and know, fret about the possibility of just a _slight _misjudgment of distance. For a _bowhunter_ to believe that he or she might be misjudging the distance of a big buck by 2-yards would cause most to have a nervous breakdown.


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> sj -
> 
> In that case we're in complete agreement. But that's not the only way it could have been read. Just wanted to make it a little clearer.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Yup, like I said, I didn't do a great job clarity wise with that post. :darkbeer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Windy - 

You really have to take things in context. 

I haven't hunted in over 20 years, but did for about 1o years previously and was fairly successful. NYS thought I knew enough about it to allow me to teach the Bowhunters Safety course for a number of years and qualify others to hunt. Implying that my knowledge is meaningless because it's 20 years old is the same as saying a 60 year man has no understanding about raising children because all of his kids are now in their 30s.

Actually the test was quite scientific for it's purpose, because it was repeated enough times to rule out the chance of statistical error. It's purpose BTW, was to demonstrate if a 2 yd difference in range estimation would matter, with an arrow of given speed, shot from a given distance.

Sorry, but Physics is Physics and the laws don't change because of the type of bow or how it's shot. I'd like to think I've shot my hunting bows with the same level of precision as my target bows, relatively speaking. The use of a target bow with a sight was necessary to remove the possibility of me subconsciously adjusting for the distance.

Taking a shot at game is no different than taking a shot at paper from a shooting perspective. In some regards even easier, as the shooter is in complete control of the shot, because he can get as close as he is able and most importantly, can "wait it out" or simply choose NOT to shoot. What he is not in control of, is how the animal will react. The BEST he can do is make the arrow go where we wants it to go and hope that the animal doesn't have other ideas. Since the latter is beyond the shooters control, all he can do is stack the deck in his favor and hope for the best. You may not like it, but that's reality.



> Based on experience, I can assure you that under certain circumstances, regardless you are shooting a compound bow or a stickbow, especially a stickbow, a 2-yard misjudgment of distance can not just cause the arrow to miss the (critical) vital area of a deer (9" - 10" diameter), the arrow can miss the entire deer.


You can assure me all you like and still be dead wrong (sorry). What you failed to mention was the distance being discussed. For example, at a 10 yd base, varying your distance from 9 -11 yds will not put you out of the "kill" zone with almost any legal hunting bow. Going from 19 - 21, it might with some slower bows. My test was specifically to see if there was a difference at a given distance, nothing more. 

One of the things I teach people is to know at what distance range estimation (note the word estimation) becomes critical. for some bows it may be as little as 15 yds, others considerably more. It's one reason why serious 3D shooters shooting at longer ranges will tend towards the fastest rig possible.

Also please reread my earlier posts. That's why I said that the 20 and under crowd may not "need" a faster bow, while those of us able to take longer shots might.

Without a doubt, a serious bow hunter must learn to judge distance the best he can, but he also needs to know when a "slight" error will result in a miss and when not. That, my friend is a factor in someone picking their personal comfort zone. 

BTW - I keep hearing that "instinctive" bowhunters don't have to judge distance, perhaps you should be discussing this with them?

That's reality, it you choose not to believe it that's your prerogative.

(BTW - I know YOU have no interest in hearing this, but it might be helpful to some people.)

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Taking a shot at game is no different than taking a shot at paper from a shooting perspective.


Indoor paper is shot at exact known yardage across a flat floor. There is no wind, rain or other weather elements with which to contend. I even remember one NFAA indoor sectional tournament where they held up my shooting line until the sun coming through the gymnasium windows no longer cast shadows on the targets. The shooter has minutes, instead of merely seconds, to execute a shot at a static target pinned to a wall. You even get ten warm-up shots before your first arrow is scored. 

Taking a shot at game rarely if ever has any of those luxuries. To borrow a quote from your previous post, “That's reality, it you choose not to believe it that's your prerogative.”


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Windy -
> 
> You really have to take things in context.
> 
> ...


[quote =Viper1] Without a doubt, a serious bow hunter must learn to judge distance the best he can... [/quote] It's really hard to disagree with this, but I might add that a serious bowhunter need to know how to get close enough to do that range estimation without a rangefinder or invest in one. The other question I have is this notiong that "instinctive" bowhunters don't have to judge distance. I was always of the impression that ALL bowhunters had to learn, practice and rehearse through activities like 3D, roving and other "range estimation" games.

Other than that... try not to fall out of your tree stand.

Aloha... Tom  :beer:


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> BTW - I keep hearing that "instinctive" bowhunters don't have to judge distance, perhaps you should be discussing this with them?


yeah....right....lol


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

:moviecorn


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Viper1:

What can I say other then you are dead wrong and that your lack of knowledge of judging distance and aiming under hunting conditions vs. target shooting is showing.

I would like to hear from experienced stickbow bowhunters that consider a 2-yard misjudgement of range nothing to be concerned about.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Don't blame me I voted for the American.
> 
> Have you ever noticed that when you take the word "THE" and use it with "IRS" it spells "THEIRS"?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> I would like to hear from experienced stickbow bowhunters that consider a 2-yard misjudgement of range nothing to be concerned about.


I'm not a bowhunter, but I do have a problem with that 6 foot variance.

At <20 yards, and under any conditions, that variance is negligible. I don't need testing to prove that, I do it every day I shoot, indoors and out.

At >20 yards, judging a 6 foot variance is beyond human capability on distance perception. As this distance grows, one is working with much more impairment in distance judgment. Yes, as distance grow, the variance on misjudgment become of greater importance, but can we expect that anyone can work within a 6 foot variance at long yardage? I don't think anyone can.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> I'm not a bowhunter, but I do have a problem with that 6 foot variance.
> 
> At <20 yards, and under any conditions, that variance is negligible. I don't need testing to prove that, I do it every day I shoot, indoors and out.
> 
> At >20 yards, judging a 6 foot variance is beyond human capability on distance perception. As this distance grows, one is working with much more impairment in distance judgment. Yes, as distance grow, the variance on misjudgment become of greater importance, but can we expect that anyone can work within a 6 foot variance at long yardage? I don't think anyone can.


Which is why fast bows can have an advantage at longer distance...as long as the archer has mastered their technique regarding form and aiming.

When it comes to aiming...EVERY archer judges distance to some degree or another. Some do it consciously/analytically...while others do it subconsciously/instinctively.

Ray


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

We've done enough advanced bowhunter courses to come to the acceptance that judging distance is an art, combined with an awful lot of luck. We've learned that judging distance has a lot to do with the surroundings of your target. Shooting over a ravine, gulch, or ditch, and the size of the animal all affect perception of distance as do shadows and sunlight.

Constant practice and roving, shooting at different sized targets is probably the best way to practice as well as three D courses, in my opinion.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Which is why fast bows can have an advantage at longer distance...as long as the archer has mastered their technique regarding form and aiming.
> 
> When it comes to aiming...EVERY archer judges distance to some degree or another. Some do it consciously/analytically...while others do it subconsciously/instinctively.
> 
> Ray


Sure. I can see that an archer who is well versed with their 160fps bow is as advantaged as the archer who is well versed with their 190fps bow. Although, one may have distance limitations when compared against the other, neither archer is shooting the other - they learned their equipment. 

This 2 yard limitation is the variance in question. Neither archer can judge distance well enough to say that the 160fps hunter would be better served with a 190fps bow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Sure. I can see that an archer who is well versed with their 160fps bow is as advantaged as the archer who is well versed with their 190fps bow. Although, one may have distance limitations when compared against the other, neither archer is shooting the other - they learned their equipment.
> 
> This 2 yard limitation is the variance in question. Neither archer can judge distance well enough to say that the 160fps hunter would be better served with a 190fps bow.


All things being equal...there is less variance (less arrow drop) at longer distances with a faster bow....when comparing the sight picture at 20 yrds. with both bows and the sight picture at 30yrds.

Therefore a faster bow can make up for small errors in yardage estimation and score better when the archer miscalculates the target distance at longer ranges.

It's pure physics.

Does that mean an archer has to shoot a fast bow at longer distances to be any good?

Heck no!

It just means it's easier to be more accurate at longer distances shooting within a variety of unmarked distances with a faster bow...especailly when the difference is 30fps.

If you study the set-ups of many of the top shooters in unmarked long distance archery competitions...you will rarely see setups with bows shooting sub 160fps. winning them...and the reason why is because of what I stated above.

Ray


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ray said:


> If you study the set-ups of many of the top shooters in unmarked long distance archery competitions...you will rarely see setups with bows shooting sub 160fps. winning them...and the reason why is because of what I stated above.
> 
> Ray


Are any of them shooting recurves?

Aloha...  :beer:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Are any of them shooting recurves?
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


They are shooting BOTH longbows and recurves...depending on the class they are competeing in.

Ray


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Got it... actually I would think any efficient bow would do well on unmarked ranges. Some of the guys here have FPS variations of only a few feet per second with their bows and I'd be inclined to think that any of those would do well in competition.

Much Aloha.... Tom  :beer:


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## Orion Major (Oct 20, 2006)

I'm always trying to learn so I would like to hear the explanation for this:

"Based on experience, I can assure you that under certain circumstances, regardless you are shooting a compound bow or a stickbow, especially a stickbow, a 2-yard misjudgment of distance can not just cause the arrow to miss the (critical) vital area of a deer (9" - 10" diameter), the arrow can miss the entire deer."

Seems to me unless you are shooting at such a distance (or such a slow bow) that the arrows arc exceeds a 2inch drop per yard, you can't miss a 9" target for a 6 foot mistake. just ain't possible.

yes I hunt. And no, the laws of physics do not change between a paper and a live target, sorry guys, you can claim that a "live target" adds a hundred variables, it doesn't change what effect 2 yards has on the arrow.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

That distance with a 200 fps bow is 20 yards. With a 250 fps bow, it is approximately 30 yards.

http://home.att.net/~sajackson/ballistics.html

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Orion Major (Oct 20, 2006)

Rattus,
Math ain't my strong point, I tried playing around with that ballistic calculator (thanks for the link), but what numbers are you using and how are you interpreting the arrow drop exceeding 2" per yard at 20 yards? Thanks

And I guess to keep things honest, (math wise) the original numbers in question were "missing a 9" diameter target" which means you have to move at least 4 1/2" to change a center hit to a miss.

Now someone can certainly come along and say that to move an arrow strike from *ANYWHERE* in the kill zone to outside the kill zone *can* be as little as a 1/4 inch difference, in which case I concede a distance estimation error of 1 foot can make that difference, but if we go down that road, it looks like windy would be the only one with a sharp enough eye to be in the woods hunting.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Orion Major... 

Hi Orion.... all I did was to take an arrow, and divide the 10 yard sections by 2, which represents the 2 yards. So for 10 yards, you have 5 sections, 20 yards has 10, 30, 15 etc. The drop for 10 yards was X, divide by 5 = Y. Same for 20 and 30 etc. The question was a 2" miss, and if the drop at 20 yards is 21", then divided by 10, to represent the 2 yard sections in 20 yards, you'd get an average of 2.1" or more beyond 20 yards. Thirty yards would be the same.

I'm no math major either, so anyone out there wants to correct me, I'm awaiting with pencil in hand.... :grin:

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Orion Major...
> 
> Hi Orion.... all I did was to take an arrow, and divide the 10 yard sections by 2, which represents the 2 yards. So for 10 yards, you have 5 sections, 20 yards has 10, 30, 15 etc. The drop for 10 yards was X, divide by 5 = Y. Same for 20 and 30 etc. The question was a 2" miss, and if the drop at 20 yards is 21", then divided by 10, to represent the 2 yard sections in 20 yards, you'd get an average of 2.1" or more beyond 20 yards. Thirty yards would be the same.
> 
> ...


Your equation and the calculator assume linear path and drop. The calculator has the arrow dropping as soon as it is released. If the arrow drops in this way, your math says an arrow drops 40 inches every 20 yards (2"/yard). I would not be able to hit a 20 yard target with the mentioned bow weights, as that is more drop than I have bow height.

In reality, arrow path is parabolic. For the mentioned weights, the arrow is actually rising at 20 yards or close to full rise. Now, a faster arrow has a longer parabola than a slower arrow, but a linear calculation cannot model this travel.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Orion Major said:


> Rattus,
> 
> Now someone can certainly come along and say that to move an arrow strike from *ANYWHERE* in the kill zone to outside the kill zone *can* be as little as a 1/4 inch difference, in which case I concede a distance estimation error of 1 foot can make that difference, but if we go down that road, it looks like windy would be the only one with a sharp enough eye to be in the woods hunting.


Point Blank Range, MOA (Minute of Angle or 1 degree otherwise a 1 360th of a circle) and a group. These are terms that represent the result of a shot. They are somewhat related but mean different things.

Point Blank Range = that distance from the shot origination where the trajectory flies no more above line of sight than it does below line of sight by a certain measurement. We use the vital diameter of animals generally as the model, so an 8" vital would be represented by a Point Blank Range that had trajectory rising no more than 4" above line of sight. Ok... that makes sense.

Point Blank Range represents an objects trajectory. MOA represents an objects ACCURACY. I'm of the recent knowledge that MOA represents a "circle" of whatever your MOA is at basically 100 yard increments. 100 yards = 1" circle. 1000 yards = 10" circle...

Group = the measurement from the centers of the two most distant shot placements of a group of shots to a specific target. I guess this could considered an MOA measurement as well at 100 yards, but a 2" group at 100 yards is a 2" MOA at 100 yards but MOA at 200 yards due to the increasing width of a 1degree angle as distance from the shot lengthens.

Point blank range versus MOA. Point blank range is that range you can just aim and shoot and be reasonably certain of hitting the vitals effectively. 

Range estimation. You have to know how far your animal is whether for Point Blank Range or for sight pins set at different ranges. Point Blank Range represents the top to bottom of a vital in a vacuum. If the trajectory falls at the bottom or the top of a vital then your accuracy or grouping comes into focus. No longer does your arrows trajectory rule, it is now your group. If your group is consistent, say 5 out of 5 or 10 out of 10, and remains smaller than the vital of the animal you're hunting for that range, then your range estimation becomes the driving parameter.

All this being said for me wanting to procrastinate from doing my chores this morning, two yards of range estimation error is not insignificant. A 6" group means that between two independant shots, the error at best could be as high as 3" typically, but 6" potentially.

Better to be close, accurate, and quiet. 

Ok... so much for my procrastination.... Aloha...  :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> Your equation and the calculator assume linear path and drop. The calculator has the arrow dropping as soon as it is released. If the arrow drops in this way, your math says an arrow drops 40 inches every 20 yards (2"/yard). I would not be able to hit a 20 yard target with the mentioned bow weights, as that is more drop than I have bow height.
> 
> In reality, arrow path is parabolic. For the mentioned weights, the arrow is actually rising at 20 yards or close to full rise. Now, a faster arrow has a longer parabola than a slower arrow, but a linear calculation cannot model this travel.



No question. It is not my math. It is my perception of the tables. If an arrow drops 21 inches AT 20 yards, I can say that I can average that drop at 1" per yard if I divide it by 20. That is what I did.

Parabola... has nothing to do with drop. Gravity is going to pull that arrow down no matter what we try. The "trajectory" of our shot relates to our wanting to hit a target within our line of sight and necessarily requires that we shoot above the line of sight in order that the "drop" bring the shot on target downrange. I recognize that, and parabola in a vacuum should be constant. However, we are human and represent error, so in MY opinion.... 

And the beat goes on.... :grin:

Aloha...  :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

WindWalker said:


> Viper1:
> 
> What can I say other then you are dead wrong and that your lack of knowledge of judging distance and aiming under hunting conditions vs. target shooting is showing.
> 
> I would like to hear from experienced stickbow bowhunters that consider a 2-yard misjudgement of range nothing to be concerned about.


I'd like to hear from an experience stickbow hunter that shoots POA and _needs_ to know the exact range to such a precise degree. Even Saxton Pope and Art Young, who shot modified POA and slow (150 fps or less) bows didn't bother to think entirely about the distance when they shot at game. They did what Viper simulated with his test: they saw the "range" and shot for that range- shooting out to 100 yards at big game. The fact they managed to actually kill game- numerous peieces- with such...er-hem... shooting is a clear indication that perfect yard gauging isn't as necessary as you seem to be implying- especially when most hunters today shoot within 25 yards. 

Espceially when you take into account also that they're wooden arrows were rather heavy (650 gr), they're bows with roughly protected from the elements (variations of linseed oil or french polish protection), and several of their weapons were very stressed (and therefore less reliable to perfomr the same- an 80# @ 28" English longbow only 62" long?). Their equipemet couldn't be expected to shoot the exact same way in Alaska as it could in Africa, and yet still the managed long distance kills on game.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Anyone can easily test their own equipment by putting some type of temporary sights on their bow.

Sight in your bow for 20yrds., 30yrds., 40yrds.

For examples:

Than shoot from 22yrds., 24yrds., 26yrds holding your 20yrds. pin on the bullseye and see how much you miss by. 

Than shoot from 32yrds., 34yrds., 36yrds. holding your 30yrds. pin on the bullseye and see how much you miss by.

Than shoot from 42yrds., 44yrds., 46yrds. holding your 40yrds. pin on the bullseye and see how much you miss by. 

Find out how much you can misjudge yardage and still hit your target with a particular sight pin.

I guarantee the faster bows will be able to get away with more than slower bows.

Ray


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> I'd like to hear from an experience stickbow hunter that shoots POA and _needs_ to know the exact range to such a precise degree. Even Saxton Pope and Art Young, who shot modified POA and slow (150 fps or less) bows didn't bother to think entirely about the distance when they shot at game. They did what Viper simulated with his test: they saw the "range" and shot for that range- shooting out to 100 yards at big game. The fact they managed to actually kill game- numerous peieces- with such...er-hem... shooting is a clear indication that perfect yard gauging isn't as necessary as you seem to be implying- especially when most hunters today shoot within 25 yards.
> 
> Espceially when you take into account also that they're wooden arrows were rather heavy (650 gr), they're bows with roughly protected from the elements (variations of linseed oil or french polish protection), and several of their weapons were very stressed (and therefore less reliable to perfomr the same- an 80# @ 28" English longbow only 62" long?). Their equipemet couldn't be expected to shoot the exact same way in Alaska as it could in Africa, and yet still the managed long distance kills on game.


Today most of us take a pretty strict viewpoint of animal wounding. I read a book on Teddy Roosevelt in Africa where wounding was accepted as routine. I don't know about Saxon and Pope or Ishii, but I can tell you that wounding was less of a concern for oldtimers than it apparently is today. We put a premium on "ethical" shots today. For you to say that they killed at 100 yards without the attending caveat that they may have wounded and in fact I am specifically implying that they didn't give wounding the consideration we give game today, fair chase not withstanding, for all fair chase required, was that you stalked your game without the aid of poisons, explosives, fences and the like. Posewitzes "beyond fair chase" introduced the concept of actually looking for your game after you hit it.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Anyone can easily test their own equipment by putting some type of temporary sights on their bow.
> 
> Sight in your bow for 20yrds., 30yrds., 40yrds.
> 
> ...


Bill Wadsworth in the Archery Video utilized in the Hunter Education Program shows him shooting at a deer and hitting it in the vitals. Shooting at target 8 yards further, and aiming presumably also at the vitals, hit it in the foot. I don't know if the targets were exactly deer sized or not, but the effect of the demonstration was obvious.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> Today most of us take a pretty strict viewpoint of animal wounding. I read a book on Teddy Roosevelt in Africa where wounding was accepted as routine. I don't know about Saxon and Pope or Ishii, but I can tell you that wounding was less of a concern for oldtimers than it apparently is today. We put a premium on "ethical" shots today. For you to say that they killed at 100 yards without the attending caveat that they may have wounded and in fact I am specifically implying that they didn't give wounding the consideration we give game today, fair chase not withstanding, for all fair chase required, was that you stalked your game without the aid of poisons, explosives, fences and the like. Posewitzes "beyond fair chase" introduced the concept of actually looking for your game after you hit it.
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


Also vey true. They did NOT show much conercern for quick kills other than recovery of "the specimen". But this is an elevation argument, where their style of "hunting" applies. My point was along the lines of, 'If knowing the exact distance was so necessary, then how would they have hit _at all_?'


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Also vey true. They did NOT show much conercern for quick kills other than recovery of "the specimen". But this is an elevation argument, where their style of "hunting" applies. My point was along the lines of, 'If knowing the exact distance was so necessary, then how would they have hit _at all_?'


You're right about this elevating the discussion, and in that light, I'd like to have your permission to say that they did not show much concern for quick kills other than the recovery of "A specimen".

Much Aloha,

Tom  :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Also vey true. They did NOT show much conercern for quick kills other than recovery of "the specimen". But this is an elevation argument, where their style of "hunting" applies. My point was along the lines of, 'If knowing the exact distance was so necessary, then how would they have hit _at all_?'


Your point is I'm sure, as hunters we take shots. If we were to be completely risk free, we'd probably never release an arrow. This is life.

Much Aloha...  :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> No question. It is not my math. It is my perception of the tables. If an arrow drops 21 inches AT 20 yards, I can say that I can average that drop at 1" per yard if I divide it by 20. That is what I did.


Sure, I fully understand what you did, mathwise, but one assumed ratio cannot hold for a non-linear path. All points along the path are not the same. Picking one point and applying the ratio "at that point" on the path to the whole path does not work if the line is curvilinear.

As we know from the flight of an arrow, the drop is positive at first (arrow rises above level line) and then falls. As it falls, the drop/feet ratio is higher towards the end of flight. The ratio of rise/run (drop to distance) is not the same at all points.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Rattus- yup. But what I meant by elevation argument was _actual _ elevation:lol:- not that it was starting an argument. The left to right misses (and numerous gut shots I'm sure) of Pope and Young were terible things no hunter would emulate today. But they certainly didn't know the yard to a "T"- nor did their gear shoot well enough to be 100% infallible- when they actually _did_ hit.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Rattus- yup. But what I meant by elevation argument was _actual _ elevation:lol:- not that it was starting an argument. The left to right misses (and numerous gut shots I'm sure) of Pope and Young were terible things no hunter would emulate today. But they certainly didn't know the yard to a "T"- nor did their gear shoot well enough to be 100% infallible- when they actually _did_ hit.


This is what you get when you start discussing elevated topics with someone who gets too much sun... :grin:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> This is what you get when you start discussing elevated topics with someone who gets too much sun... :grin:


Perfectly alright!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> Sure, I fully understand what you did, mathwise, but one assumed ratio cannot hold for a non-linear path. All points along the path are not the same. Picking one point and applying the ratio "at that point" on the path to the whole path does not work if the line is curvilinear.
> 
> As we know from the flight of an arrow, the drop is positive at first (arrow rises above level line) and then falls. As it falls, the drop/feet ratio is higher towards the end of flight. The ratio of rise/run (drop to distance) is not the same at all points.


Hi Sanford.... 

Not to be arguin here, but I think that is trajectory and as such, is there to counter the effects of gravity or drop, as it may.

As to your point of the curvilinear path... which by the way properly describes that bikini down the way some... but here not there... once you get to that point on the chart as a zero, all further reference to drop related to line of sight IS going to be negative, and if it accelerates with each passing foot/yard, the point can be argued... whatever we was arguing (not us... the discussion) which is..... whatever it was....  Be patient.... be patient... :grin:

Much Aloha...  :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Hi Sanford....
> 
> Not to be arguin here, but I think that is trajectory and as such, is there to counter the effects of gravity or drop, as it may.
> 
> ...


Nah, this stuff is too complicated to be arguin over. I save my internet arguin for space alien discussion and such. Curvilinear? Yep, that is one of those pedantic words that just ain't quitely so and best reserved for describing better things than math models.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Spaced Aliens huh...... :grin: certain times round here after the harvests we got some of them wandering around here too ...... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

So back to the original question.........If your asking about Factory, go with DAS, Tradtech or Hoyt, better yet a vintage Bear. If you asking about Custom, can't beat Bob Lee, Morrison, Great Northern, Saluki (if your into that style), A&H, Black Widow, Black Swan. Some "newer" custom shops that have very nice bows, Dryad, Dan Toelke, Rose Oak......Way too many choices.


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## SCS (Jun 27, 2005)

Thanks Longstick
I forgot the original question days ago!
Steve


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