# ratio of push vs pull?



## Sivart (Mar 12, 2004)

When pulling thru the shot, is there a percentage of push vs pull? I find if I don't push enough i get some torque at times


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If the push does not equal the PULL, then, the bow slams into your face.
If the push does not equal the PULL, if the PULL is stronger than the PUSH,
and you have a bent elbow, the bow slams into your face.

Focus more on shoulders alignment.
Learn how to get into a more narrow stance.
FIX bow hand knuckles rotation.



If you resemble the fella in the Green hat, you will torque the shot.
Same fella, but in a blue t-shirt now, the AFTER form photo, he no longer has a torque problem.

Bow hand.



One of these guys has a torque problem. Other fella does not.



One of these guys has a torque problem. Other fella does not.
If you don't use a wrist sling, you will have a torque problem. Use a wrist sling.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Newtons third law of Motion .. you can't have push without pull or pull without push


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## Nick72 (Aug 14, 2020)

I was really hoping you would get more responses, as I don't think the answers above do your question justice.

I think it was partly the way you phrased it. Clearly the push will equal the pull - but can you increase / decrease this figure?

Unfortunately I'm not the right person to respond as I have very limited knowledge or experience but I'm going to try anyway - if for no other reason than to be corrected and learn something in the process.

My bow is set at #55 with 75% let-off.

When I use a hand held bow scale it reads #11 holding weight.

If I really pull into the back wall it reads #16 holding weight.

Now this tells me there is more to Let-off than the setting on the bow, and the archer is an active part of achieving the holding weight.

I've been shooting for less than 8 months, and my shooting has steadily been improving - although I've seen big jumps in improvement when I've had coaching, both in person and via this forum.

Thanks once again to @nuts&bolts

In all that time I would describe my pull into the wall as firm. I reach the back wall effectively, without too strenuous an effort, and don't experience any creep during the normal shot process.

But I'm fairly sure I'm getting that #11 of holding weight rather than the #16.

Today I was experimenting with forward hand pressure and it's effect on my pin.

I tried putting a lot more pressure on my bow hand while at full draw (I therefore must have also been increasing the pressure I put into the back wall - but this was fairly subconscious).

This was the effect:

1) pin held rock steady for up to a second immediately prior to release.

2) shot felt much more satisfying and directed (like a really solidly thumped pool table shot).

3) Arrows went 6 inches high and 4 inches left.

I persevered for a while and noticed my bare shafts were really good.

After about 30 minutes I was getting groups of one fletched and two bare shafts within a one inch circle - although still about 1 inch to the right of the bullseye (partly sights, partly my own lack of accuracy).

Now these groups were not necessarily better than my normal groups on a good day; but I've never been that consistent when mixing in bare shafts at 18m.

I ran out of time before I could persue this further.

I'm certainly going to be experimenting with varying bow hand pressure moving forward.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nick72 said:


> I was really hoping you would get more responses, as I don't think the answers above do your question justice.
> 
> I thinking partly it was the way you phrased it. Clearly the push will equal the pull - but can you increase / decrease this figure?
> 
> ...


Keep experimenting. You are on a good track of experimentation.
My best bow hand grip technique, training exercise only requires 2 meters.









1) must balance the "push" force with the "pull" force, within 1/10ths of an ounce. Set your scale to ounces
and learn the FEEL of 1/10th of an ounce. Your head/center of chest should feel "centered".

2) so, that's dental floss, or in my case, a spool of dacron bowstring. DO NOT USE ROPE. Only dental floss.
But, only 2 meters (2 yards). Yes. Play with the bow hand, to try and SPLIT the dental floss with your bareshaft.
Play with bow hand pressure. Play with bow hand knuckles rotation. 

PLAY with sideways pressure for the bow hand thumb, against the riser. Makes a difference.


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## ca.nuck (Feb 1, 2021)

nuts&bolts - you say to use a wrist sling - since it is supposed to be a loose fit (i think), is the value in it to help with confidence (and ultimately prevention from dropping the bow) in using a lighter or more open / angled grip on the bow?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ca.nuck said:


> nuts&bolts - you say to use a wrist sling - since it is supposed to be a loose fit (i think), is the value in it to help with confidence (and ultimately prevention from dropping the bow) in using a lighter or more open / angled grip on the bow?


With no wrist sling, the shooter MUST grab the bow after every shot, in order to not drop the bow on the ground.
So, with a wrist sling, with a finger sling, with any kind of device to prevent the bow from dropping to the floor,
the shooter no longer has to GRAB the bow after every shot.

Actually we train shooters to allow the bow to fall out of the hand, after the shot. For the target compound bows,
watch this follow through reaction, after the arrow is fired.

This shooter is using a finger sling.











A target compound bow is not "DEAD" in the hand. A target compound bow is designed to fly forwards out of the bow hand, and slam into the finger sling.

We want the thumb (side of thumb) to GUIDE the side of the riser (grip area) to allow a target style compound bow to REACT forwards to fly straight towards the target. Shooter does not worry that the bow will fly out of his bow hand and SLAM into the floor, cuz he is using a finger sling.

I once FORGOT to put on my finger sling. So, I fired my shot, just like this guy,
and the arrow hit the x-ring, and the bow followed my arrow, flying straight towards the target, landing about 4-5 feet past the shooting line. My friends on the line, were laughing their heads off.

So finger sling, or wrist sling, the idea is to KILL the instinct to GRAB the bow, to suddenly close the fingers around the riser, after the shot. 

Want this style of bow hand grip, or thereabouts.





Short ATA bow, with parallel limb tips or slightly past parallel limb tips, will have ZERO forwards jump.
Still, regardless, want super light touch on the index finger.

Now, on this style of target bow, say a 40-inch ATA target compound, where the limb pockets are much more vertical...this style of compound bow WILL jump out of your hand.





So, you train your bow hand to allow the bow to fly forwards out of your bow hand, just let er go.
Wrist sling or finger sling will catch the bow, as the bow trys to follow the arrow all the way to the x-ring.


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