# Rick welch method?



## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I have been watching the accuracy factory, I shoot 3 under ect. His classes are prob out of he picture for a while, I have experimented with his insinctive aiming or what ever you want to call it.

My questionis after numerous reps, are you training our muscle and brain to know where your bow arm needs to point without thinking about it based on the trajectory of th arrow after numerous reps?

Not sure this makes sense, I am doing decent with this style, I normally gun barrel the arrow, but my accuracy suffers after 17 or so yards.


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## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

I think that would be one way of putting it. Byron Furguson explains it more as training your brain to imagine the trajectory of the arrow, with your body making adjustment accordingly...while you just concentrate on the mark. Same thing? Certainly it takes a lot of repetition, and I certainly think a lot about things like "did I anchor correctly that time?" when a shot goes wild.

I have been following the "become the arrow" style, system, whatever one would call it, and it has worked quite well for me. I'm not familiar with the Welch method...but any type of "instinctive" style should allow you to shoot at various distances without accuracy suffering greatly....as I move back my groups will open up a bit, but my windage and elevation will remain on, and I don't think about what the distance is. Moving from 18 yards, to 35, and anywhere in between and windage and elevation will remain constant, all without thinking about aiming or what the distance is. Having said that, I do line the arrow up with the mark windage-wise, but don't conciously (how do you spell that?) use any "gap". I'm surprised your accuracy suffers (and I assume "greatly") when you move back. You must still be thinking about aiming.

What works for me, and this will make all the experts, and those with great experience cringe and even become angry, but I don't shoot from close up for weeks or months until my groups are tiny, and then move back one or two yards and start over, I mix it up quite a bit. I might shoot a round (12 arrows) at 25 yards, the next round at 18, the next at 30 or 35, then back to 20...etc. That works for me. !! I might even shoot a round at 45 yards just for fun. Again this is working for me, but might not be everyone's cup of tea. I'm sure it will meet with great disapproval at least.

I am by no means a great shot, but I like being able to put the arrow on a paper plate at any range (between real close and 35 yards) rather than being able to shoot tiny groups at one specific range, (although at 18 and under I can shoot some pretty tiny groups) and then shooting way over or under at various ranges, or having groups open _WAY_ up when I move back. I don't know if that made any sense. I just seem to be getting really good consistency, and my accuracy keeps improving.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

Makes sense, just wanted make sure I was thinkin right about the method.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Just concentrate on shooting a strong shot no matter what the distance is. For any shot inside ~25yds with a reasonably quick bow that is all you need to do.

Its not about where the bow-arm points, its about how your brain perceives the sight picture. After a while you will know when the sight picture is aligned in the way required to hit the target.

-Grant


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

This my 1st season w/ trad bow. What about this scenarios, with my current aming method, the animal pretty much needs to be stopped and still, but we all know that don't happen.

With a more instinctive method, if the animal moves and takes a few step as I am ready to shoot, it seems I could hold and adjust to make the shot, without letting down. As apossed to letting down and redrawing and reaming.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Having filmed and coproduced The Accuracy Factory, with Rick, I think I'm qualified to attempt to answer your question. The goal of the dvd is to provide a more detailed illustration of Rick's shooting method. Although it's certainly NEVER going to be as beneficial as his very intensely focused, one on one shooting school, it's pretty much the next best thing. 

There is more than one thing going on in his shooting method, which when they are all incorporated *CORRECTLY* they will yield better, consistent accuracy. Please don't just take my word for it, just look at his Youtube page. It starts with a consistent, repeatable routine *THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT*. Then setting up the bow to shoot where you're NATURALLY looking (at the target NOT anything else this in your primary vision i'm speaking of not peripheral vision this is your *NATURAL SIGHT PICTURE*) is another component. Arrow setup, btw bareshaft tuning is a completely unnecessary *unless one is just strongly compelled to do so*. Then smart practice habits, one arrow at a time, from different distances/angles. 

Now to the "meat" of the answer. Your mind's eye (subconscious) already knows where to put your bow arm. The shooter just needs to learn to TRUST THE BOW ARM, and this takes different amount of time for different people. IT'S TRAINING THE SHOOTER TO LEARN TO TRUST HIS/HER INSTINCTS. I can tell you this, in my personal experience, when I follow the routine to the letter, lock my nose on the feather, and COMPLETELY focus on the spot I want the arrow to go thru during that 2 second hold is where "The magic happens!" More often that not when I don't hit the spot I'm looking at it's because I rushed the shot. The hold is gold! 

I actually had to pause making this response, because I just got a call from Rick Welch. I don't know if my answer is helpful to you, I hope it is. If you have any further questions regarding Rick's shooting method you are able to email him directly [email protected], tell him Dave Mullins sent ya. If you're not comfortable doing that feel free to call me anytime and I will do my best to explain anything you might not be 100% clear on 304-590-5623. It's alot easier to talk than type. Anyhow, all the best & Merry Christmas.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

What is happening is you are allowing your subconscious to aim - it is no more complicated - in fact - it is less complicated than how you aim a ball when you throw it - yet nobody questions it - nobody denies that we aim at a subconscious level when we throw a ball, nobody "gaps" when they throw a ball, etc...

Don't over think it - instinctive aiming is a simple thing - you just surrender the aim to the subconscious - all you worry about is consistent form and keeping your eye on the spot - your subconscious will do the rest - no need to "gap", to look at the arrow, to string walk, to put the arrow right up to your eyeball, etc...

This method of aiming is great for distances of less than 40 yards - 50 for guys who are exceptional - and the reason for the limitation is that our brains are hardwired to judge distance about as far as we can throw something - we extend this range a bit becuase of the velocity of the arrow - but beyond the 40-50 yard range - instinctive is not the way to go - then I think you should just put signts on the bow and be done with it if you want to shoot more than 50 yards.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

thanks, it makes sense, I feel with more practice I will improve, greatly, I have bursitis in my shoulder at the moment from a tree stand fall. So limited shooting tell it gets better.

Got a rinehart deer and turkey target (woodland) series, that's what i hunt and that's what I am going shoot at.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I am a bowhunter 1st but want to be the best possible shot I can be at 25 yards and in with the most simple method I can master.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Rick has suggested that an archer adjust their equipment to hit the target as if they were naturally pointing at an object.

In many cases...the arrow often replaces the pointer finger as the pointing/aiming reference and as with pointing...the archer makes adjustments so the arrow tip is on target or very close to it as when a person points at an object.

Going from Split Finger to 3 Under, raising your anchor point, going from index finger to middle finger as an anchor reference can all help in decreasing an archer's POD to help get the arrow to represent an archer's pointer finger within their sight picture at typical hunting distances.

If an archer can get their POD to 30yrds. and under...it makes shooting at targets 30yrds. and under way easier.

Ray :shade:


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

So does arrow weight and trajectory come into play on mistakes made in instinctive aming?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Keb - what less experienced archers are missing is that what Rick is doing with his tuning method is tuning the bow to the arrow instead of the arrow to the bow - when Rick says that if the arrow is hitting to the right - you should build the strike plate out - that is because an arrow that is impacting to the right of where you look is too weak for the bow - so building out the strike plate tunes the bow to the weak arrow. 

Regarding arrow weight and mistakes in instinctive aiming - our subconscious is not perfect and there are things that can screw up how our subconscious perceives or judges distance - a faster flatter arrow will be more forgiving of these errors in distance judgement.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

keb said:


> So does arrow weight and trajectory come into play on mistakes made in instinctive aming?


As with any aiming technique that involves shooting at targets at a variety of distances...a lighter, faster arrow helps make aiming easier.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

keb said:


> So does arrow weight and trajectory come into play on mistakes made in instinctive aming?


Changing arrow weight and speed will effect your instinctive aim. Our minds eye gets used to seeing the arc of the arrow and logs that picture in. So lets say you shoot 175 fps and you are used to seeing this arc then change to 200fps. Your first few shots might be off because your subconscious sight picture is not used to 200fps but it doesn't take long to catch up. Once you see it that computer between your ears never forgets.
Gary


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

keb said:


> My questionis after numerous reps, are you training our muscle and brain to know where your bow arm needs to point without thinking about it based on the trajectory of th arrow after numerous reps


Only if your form and release is such that arrow trajectory is exactly the same on each shot. Otherwise, your brain and muscles are chasing a moving target. Some accuracy will come together that way, trying to meld aim and form by rep shooting, but more precision in accuracy requires more stability in your form and release. Like other coaches, I'm sure Rick has a good bit of instruction of how to develop a consistent form in your shot - that part is not as straightforward and takes much more instruction, study, and practice than can be had just off DVDs - though they are a good start. The basics are the basics, so whether a day with Rick or several weeks of sessions with a local coach, either would not only shorten your learning curve, but make you much more accurate. With a local coach, you could get many sessions for the price of one session with Rick, and that would give you way more feedback and instruction as you are learning the basics.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

keb said:


> My questionis after numerous reps, are you training our muscle and brain to know where your bow arm needs to point without thinking about it based on the trajectory of th arrow after numerous reps?


Basically...yes. It's called developing motor/muscle memory in basically the same way most athletes develop their specialized athletic abilities. Just like most athletes learn how to execute a movement...it begins with some level of conscious awareness in regards to how to execute it until the athlete has mastered it and is able to execute it without thinking about how to do it.

If you've ever taken any martial arts, dance classes or learned how to play a musical instrument...that may help shed some light on this subject for you.

True Instinctive Aiming is executed very smoothly with very little to no pause at anchor in basically the same way a person throws a ball.

The moment an archer pauses at anchor...they increase the chance of the conscious mind using the arrow or whatever aiming reference the archer may be using to adjust the sight picture. The longer the hold and the closer the aiming reference is to the archer's direct line of sight to the target...the more likely the conscious mind is involved with adjusting the sight picture...even if it's at a very low level of conscious awareness.

Keep in mind...there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with holding anchor and allowing your conscious mind to adjust the sight picture at some level of conscious awareness or to make sure your anchor is solid and consistent. Many archers who believe they are aiming Totally Instinctively are doing this but it's really no different than how many Gap shooters who have mastered their technique shoot.

You need to understand the difference between a very low level of conscious awareness with adjusting the sight picture and no conscious awareness with adjusting the sight picture.

One is aiming Totally Instinctively...the other is more or less only partially aiming Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here we go again:

_True Instinctive Aiming is executed very smoothly with very little to no pause at anchor in basically the same way a person throws a ball._ 

Remember in a post a while back when I said that this mentality is why soooo many guys snap shoot and shoot as if they have target panic when shooting instinctive - and that it is not really target panic - it is how they think they should shoot?

He mentions throwing a ball - ever watch a pitcher pause and then throw - a free throw shooter pause and then throw - and then the shortstop can catch a grounder and thow it very fast with no pause - in both cases they are aiming the ball the same - one is just done slower and more deliberate.

This stuff about what is "true" instinctive or not is subjective nonsense - Rick Welch, myself, Scott Langley, Sean Callanan, etc... are just as much instinctive shooters as Asbell or anyone else - a pause at anchor has nothing to do with it - if you follow this line of thinking - you will be snap shooting and shooting like crap and then they will say you have TP - LOL

Heck even Asbell himself says you should not snap shoot and that you shoudl pause at anchor as long as is necessary for you - and he is the supposed master of instinctive shooting!


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I just shot a bit, using what I have learned, but it's gonna take some time for me to convert, if I can.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I hold at my anchor for 2 to 3 seconds with my method, just going o get used to not lineing the arrow up prior to the shot.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If you havent already done this get some bright helical fletch arrows, you get better feedback and helps speed up the Instinctive learning process because the subsconscious picks up the trajectory easier and learns from it.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Keb, you may be already doing this, but practice close, on a bag if you can. Work on whatever changes you have made without actually trying to hit something. Change in anchor, holding longer, etc. Work on each step individually. Speck


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve is right - also - you can buy "arrow tracers" - which are big puffs of feathers that go in front of the nock - lighted nocks do the same as well.

Jay Kidwell is a firm believer that we learn to aim instinctively based on trajecory feedback and not at all on the "gap" or arrow point - as some of the less experienced archers think we do - which totally negates the theory that pausing at anchor has anything to do with whether we are aiming instinctive or not.

I think Dr. Kidwell is partially correct - I think that our subconscious uses feedback from everything - the trajectory, the bow, the bow hand, the arrow, the "gap", the horizon, whatever - our subconscious brain can see and use thousands, perhaps millions of things at a time.

But I will say that when first read Dr. Kidwells book - years and years ago - he suggested shooting at very long distances and consciously paying attention to the arrow in flight - and that doing this would help improve your accuracy because you are speeding up the process of the subconscious learning the trajectory - and he was right - that was one of the first things that really improved my shooting.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I must also point out that you shouldnt actually be looking for the arrow in flight, just make them bright enough for the subconscious to pick them up. 

One of the reason Instinctive shooter like roving because everything (the world) is the backstop and the target is very small a flower/leaf, if your shooting at target fairly small like those block targets you natually want to line it up with the target and it can be more difficult with the instinctive learning process, I have a big black target 1m x 1m and just place a very small white piece of paper on it (not always in the centre), its amazing how far back and well I can group like that, shooting both Gap and Instinctively.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Keb,

An archer with very good hand and eye coordination can Snap Shoot very accurately. The problem is...alot of archers, who try it struggle with it because they haven't learned to develop consistent form first, aren't very gifted athletically and/or really have no clue what they are doing other than that's how they were told you HAVE to do it.

I've NEVER said an archer has to Snap Shoot to be aiming Totally Instinctively.

When a pitcher or basketball player pauses...their pause is NOT when they have commited to throwing the ball or shooting the basket. The pause is the set up before they have fully commited to throw or shoot. What they are doing is consciously setting up their foundation and almost every archer does this with their stance and/or in some cases presets their bow arm close to where it will be once they have fully commited to the shot. Just watch a video of Jinks when he consciously presets or preaims his bow to the target and than commits to shooting by drawing the bow and releasing the moment he reaches anchor. His technique is not much different than how a baseball player or basketball player pauses and sets their foundation before commiting to the shot.

There's a HUGE difference in understanding sport's science here in this thread. Some people get it...while others think they get it.

Here's a video of an archer aiming Totally Instinctively. 







There's really no question about it...where as with other archers who pause at anchor...there can be genuine doubts based on thoroughly understanding sport's science and what's involved with the mind and body while it performs certain tasks.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Steve thats exactly why I have all 4 4" white feathers on those ace's


steve morley said:


> If you havent already done this get some bright helical fletch arrows, you get better feedback and helps speed up the Instinctive learning process because the subsconscious picks up the trajectory easier and learns from it.


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## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

44" feathers...wow, never seen 44" feathers. But some less experienced archers might think those are too short.

Would it not make more sense to both tune the bow to the arrow, and the arrow to the bow? A little more lee-way, or finer tuning? Tuning the bow is nothing new, when one changes brace height or adds sting silencers, or trims silencers, one is tuning to the arrow. Not sure that "instead of" would be better than a little of both.

But I'm sure I took that statement a bit too literally.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Nokhead said:


> 44" feathers...wow, never seen 44" feathers. But some less experienced archers might think those are too short.
> 
> Would it not make more sense to both tune the bow to the arrow, and the arrow to the bow? A little more lee-way, or finer tuning? Tuning the bow is nothing new, when one changes brace height or adds sting silencers, or trims silencers, one is tuning to the arrow. Not sure that "instead of" would be better than a little of both.
> 
> But I'm sure I took that statement a bit too literally.


I think that is (4) four inch feathers. As for tuning, assuming one wants to keep their arrow set-up as close to what they picked out, it's best practice to tune as much at the bow to the arrow before having to work at tuning the arrow. The idea of tuning to where you look is not really a tune in a formal sense, as it assumes where you are looking is the same as where the line of force and arrow path are congruent as well. If that's not the case, you are detuning to match your line of sight. Case in point, I can shoot my sighted rig with way heavy and overspined arrows, not nowhere near tune as over distance, but if my sight path aligns with the arrow path, it works fine for that distance it's tuned. Paper or bareshaft tuning would show that arrow is way inefficient in flight path over my tuned arrows.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - what Kidwell was talking about was taking crazy long shots - no aiming or anything and then watching the arrow in flight and do do this as a method to aid the subconscious learning curve - NOT to watch the arrow when actually shooting at a target or animal


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

But, by moving the target back, we have to elevate more to hit the same target, then the trajectory is not the same as when the target is moved back up. The only way to keep trajectory same is to shoot same elevation - the practicality of this doesn't make sense unless you do just that, shoot and watch the arrow fly, as you cannot hit the same target at 20 as you can at 30 with the same trajectory.


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## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

Okay gotcha, just kidding about the 44" feathers. Then he would need a 45" arrow, which I imagine would have to be pretty stiff to get the bow tuned to _that_.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

Do you guys pre-set your bow arm with a slight bend or locked out?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

keb said:


> Do you guys pre-set your bow arm with a slight bend or locked out?


Whether I'm aiming Totally Instinctively or Gapstinctive my arm starts at my side and when it's up in the correct position you want it to be locked but NOT hyperextended.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I do whatever is necessary depending on the circumstances - but under the "normal" conditions - I swingdraw - pre-set to me does not feel natural - it makes it feel forced to me


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> Your mind's eye (subconscious) already knows where to put your bow arm.


Does it .. How? ..


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

the swing draw is to much movement for me to hunt with.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I need to come up with a hybrid a cross between both, swing and set.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

It should be bent. If you'll recall in the vid Rick explains why this is much better than having the bow arm fully extended.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

keb said:


> I need to come up with a hybrid a cross between both, swing and set.


keb, can you post a video of you shooting? Don't feel nervous about that, it's a great learning/teaching tool. If you have a video perhaps you can post it on our forum. :wink:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

keb said:


> Do you guys pre-set your bow arm with a slight bend or locked out?





waiting4fall said:


> It should be bent. If you'll recall in the vid Rick explains why this is much better than having the bow arm fully extended.


Asuming the second is an answer to the first............now I've not seen the video but I hope you're not suggesting the bowarm be bent at full draw?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Greysides said:


> Asuming the second is an answer to the first............now I've not seen the video but I hope you're not suggesting the bowarm be bent at full draw?


I believe he's saying "bent" as in "not locked" or hyperextended.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

keb said:


> the swing draw is to much movement for me to hunt with.


Unless you're in your stand all day holding your bow up the whole time at some point you do have to lift or swing your bow and bow arm up into position to shoot a deer :wink:

Seriously though...I know what you mean.

One of your options is to lift your bow and bow arm into position when the deer can't see that movement such as when his head is behind a tree and than when he gets within shooting range...draw the bow while your bow arm is already near the correct position.

Another option wound be to keep the bow arm bent with your elbow at your side and your bow hand about chest height while holding the bow near chest height and when a deer is close enough to shoot...you draw with a push/pull technique.

I practice every possible scenario so when the moment of truth is near...I'll be ready for just about every shot opportunity.

The majority of my shots at deer in Illinois and elk here in Colorado are with a swing draw...but it's very slow most of the time.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have used a swing draw and shot deer for over 20 years with this method - no matter what when you draw your bow there is movement - and a lot of movement - you cannot draw a bow when a deer is looking at you - period.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Funny, I have shot at least a half dozen deer and a couple elk looking right at me. I just slowly raise and set the bow, slowly draw and shoot. Trying all along to keep movement to a minimum. If your doing your part to begin with, your mostly hidden to begin with and they don't really know what their looking at for a couple seconds anyway. Doesn't work all the time, but if your already busted, why not take a chance?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> Funny, I have shot at least a half dozen deer and a couple elk looking right at me. I just slowly raise and set the bow, slowly draw and shoot. Trying all along to keep movement to a minimum. If your doing your part to begin with, your mostly hidden to begin with and they don't really know what their looking at for a couple seconds anyway. Doesn't work all the time, but *if your already busted, why not take a chance?*



I have too...BUT...it really boils down to understanding the animals you're hunting...and how they react can depend alot upon the region they are being hunted in and the species.

Some deer are super spooky and in many cases it may not be wize to take a shoot at an already alerted deer.

It's ALL circumstantial.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

where I hunt - if a deer is looking at you and you try to draw - you are done - unless it is a young immature deer - those you can jump up and down and talk too and they look at you like "what the heck?"


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Funny, I have shot at least a half dozen deer and a couple elk looking right at me. I just slowly raise and set the bow, slowly draw and shoot. Trying all along to keep movement to a minimum. If your doing your part to begin with, your mostly hidden and they don't really know what their looking at for a couple seconds anyway. Doesn't work all the time, but if your already busted, why not take a chance?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

centershot said:


> Funny, I have shot at least a half dozen deer and a couple elk looking right at me. I just slowly raise and set the bow, slowly draw and shoot. Trying all along to keep movement to a minimum. If your doing your part to begin with, your mostly hidden and they don't really know what their looking at for a couple seconds anyway. Doesn't work all the time, but if your already busted, why not take a chance?


Damn slow echo in here...........


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

Update, I went out this evening to shot, pretty muched did everything he advises in the video, no using the arrow to aim, switched my grip, prob the way it's supposed to be for point and shoot to hit where your looking.

I had some pic I wanted o post but my desk top is messing up, I am truly sold on the method, I was able to shoot pretty good and like the being able to see just the spot and animal. I am stoked it is fun shooting but this is short of amazing, if I can get a video camera I will try and get video done.

I was wearing out my rinehart buck and turkey at 20 yards, could not due that before.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

my last arrows at 20 yards.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

awesome ain't it - if one just surrenders the shot to the subconsious it is amazing how accurate we can shoot and how much fun it can be. Lots of guys bash instinctive shooting - and they don't even realize that they make the case for it - for example - many guys will come out and say that almost all of the shooters at the IBO World Championships are not instinctive and shoot gap or some other conscious aiming method - well then - that makes us instinctive guys pretty good - I have finished forth in my class two years in a row - meaning that the majority of gappers could not shoot as well as me, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley - all IBO World Champs and not a single conscious aimer beat them - so considering that those of us who shoot instinctive are a tiny minority and shoot much better than the majority - one would think other guys would want to learn to shoot this way. But then you have the inexperienced guys who don't understand or comprehend what instinctive shooting is bashing you if you pause longer than they think you should at anchor or if you grip the string in a way that they don't like or if you anchor in a way that they think is not appropriate, etc.... - blah, blah, blah - you are finding out just how accurate, cool, and fun instinctive shooting is - and don't let anyone take it away from you or convince you that you have to switch to some fancy aiming method


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> awesome ain't it - if one just surrenders the shot to the subconsious it is amazing how accurate we can shoot and how much fun it can be. Lots of guys bash instinctive shooting - and they don't even realize that they make the case for it - for example - many guys will come out and say that almost all of the shooters at the IBO World Championships are not instinctive and shoot gap or some other conscious aiming method - well then - that makes us instinctive guys pretty good - I have finished forth in my class two years in a row - meaning that the majority of gappers could not shoot as well as me, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley - all IBO World Champs and not a single conscious aimer beat them - so considering that those of us who shoot instinctive are a tiny minority and shoot much better than the majority - one would think other guys would want to learn to shoot this way. But then you have the inexperienced guys who don't understand or comprehend what instinctive shooting is bashing you if you pause longer than they think you should at anchor or if you grip the string in a way that they don't like or if you anchor in a way that they think is not appropriate, etc.... - blah, blah, blah - you are finding out just how accurate, cool, and fun instinctive shooting is - and don't let anyone take it away from you or convince you that you have to switch to some fancy aiming method


In the spirit of fairness, I think all those who finished ahead of Mr Welch at this years Trad Worlds and the Hunter Challenge were using aiming systems.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I'm not real sure what it is or what's is called, I like it, and am going to try to get better at it, I know that my old methond required me to know that past 15 shoot high lung, 20 crack daylight on the deer. Lineing the arrow up prior to shooting, the drawing.

This seems all I need to do is look at what I want to hit, how simple is that lol.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...are you ever going to quit talking about your 4 th place finishes???

I'm one of those terrible gappers..that just look down on all you instinctive guys....whatever......why is it that the last 2 world championships the last day...the TOP 5 shooters all have a method...not one instinctive shooter made the top 5...the last 2 years...look at the most dominant world champions like Jim Powell,John Dimmer,Scott Anctzak all those guys have a method...quit turning this into a we hate gappers because!!!!


Geez....

Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Keb,

So what exactly did you change about your form?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

By the way Trad forum members...Instinctive Aiming is an aiming method/system :wink: 

It's just one of the many choices an archer has to choose from while shooting a Barebow.

Ray :shade:


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I was holding the grip like a skinny compound, index finger to thumb. I put more hand in the grip the way it's made it's a talltines and has a diff grip, not sure that makes sense. 

Got me feet set, shoulder to the target , bow between my legs, look at the spot draw the bow in one smooth motion hit my anchor refocus on my spot for a second or two and dump the string and keep my bow arm straight till it hits.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I did all that before, just lined the arrow up, and used a more open grip in the other method.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

My eyes want to wander when I anchor on my face for some reason.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Keb,

Did you change anchor points or how you placed your fingers on the string?

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ray, when I shot instinctive I didn't think of it as a method....to me IMO a method has a way to double check like gapping does for me...under pressure I have a "way" that I can double check what I'm thinking like holding 5" low or 5" high...


Dewayne


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

No still anchor the same fingers the same.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I have been at the trad game for a year now, when I started I tried to mimick his method in the beginning, 3 under, ect buy watching videos, just started gun barreling to aim, it seemed to work.

I figured instinctive was a gift super natural and I did not have the skills, to do that. Now my season is on the down slope, I wanted to try it. My method works for sure, killed a spring turkey and one heck of a buck, truly blessed.

I just think if I can get good at this method it would be easier to hunt with.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I just shot a few more arrows in the dark, my targets are in the back of the garage so they were lit, but my driveway is pretty dark, same results better than my old method.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Keb,you've got to do what works for you or a version of the two....don't let the people on here including me influence how you shoot...try all the styles take something from each and make it work for you....it's a work in progress..be open minded about all the different styles..they all work....they are all good to some degree.


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Ray, when I shot instinctive I didn't think of it as a method....to me IMO a method has a way to double check like gapping does for me.


I can understand that but to me...a method... is nothing more than a specific way to aim a bow. Some are just more consciously involved than others. Each one is unique even though they may share some similarities.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

just keep at it keb and don't let guys fool you that it is somehow an inferior method - it is just as accurate as any method - and by the numbers - it may even be better - sure - at top level archery - there are guys who use all sorts of methods that do well - because aiming is really only a small percentage of the shot - but if gap shooting and all these other methods were the cats behind as many like to claim - then us instinctive shooters should have had a much poorer showing - yet we are almost always in the top 5


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Vabowdog - give it a rest - I mention my score to make a point about my method of shooting - not me personally - how many forums have you posted your wins in - everytime you do well at a tournament - you post on every forum on the net - when I talk about my scores and accomplishments in archery it is to illustrate that my method of shooting is an accurate method and that anyone can do it - not to make myself look special.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I don't have to "claim" anything look at the results....proof is in the pudding...your way works...just not for me...doesn't mean either one is right or wrong..just means there is other ways besides yours...

Merry Christmas Ken to you and your family wish y'all the best....


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I agree with that post 100% - I agree that there are lots of ways to skin a cat - it just seems that on thse forums instinctive gets bashed quite a bit on many levels - and anyone who takes an unbaised and honest look at it can see it plain as day.

Hope you have a Blessed Christmas too

I am still trying to bring home some venison with my bow - early season I spent most of my free time at the wreath factory and when I did hunt it was only for a big buck - now that I want to shoot a doe - the dang deer are soooooo spooky - I am afraid this may be my first year without shooting a deer with my bow. The wolves are EVERYWHERE - I have three stands that are all between 6 and 10 miles apart and all of them have wolf sign and the deer are on edge like you would not believe. Oh well I have till the first week in January - hopefully one will give me a chance to let the air out of it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am hearing rumors around town that guys are buying Xylitol artificial sweetner in bulk and putting it in meat and leaving it all over the woods - it supposedly is toxic to canines. I don't think this is the answer - if it can harm canines - it can likely harm any animal that eats it - to me that is not the answer - I think a .306 is a much better choice - at least you know what animal is getting it -


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Friends of mine hunted out of Butternut again this year and said there were more wolves than grouse...good luck with your remaining season......are you coming to Cleveland????


God Bless...

Dewayne Martin


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Our coyotes here are terrible...the only way to successfully kill them is to trap them with snares....they are so elusive and so deadly on deer.


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Probably not - money is tight - but I plan to go for sure to the Worlds this year. There is supposedly a kid that is going to shoot trad at my winter league and thinks he is pretty good - if he wants to go to the Indoors - and we can split the costs maybe then I will go - we shall see - but in all likelyhood I will only go to one or the other - and I would rather to to the regular Trad Worlds in July than the Indoor worlds.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Me too...I missed the Trad Worlds last year like you did....hope you get to come to Cleveland....it's a fun shoot..something to do when it's nothing to do.

Dewayne


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

How far are the shoots there do they have class for wood arrows only?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

LB is longbow and you must shoot wood arrows...TRD is recurve and you can shoot wood,aluminum or carbon...the longest shot will be 30+- the average will be between 14-19 and some at 6-8 feet...

Dewayne


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

keb said:


> My eyes want to wander when I anchor on my face for some reason.



LOL, I see you have discovered the shifty eyes syndrome also. It seems that lots of people aren't aware of it but you can take advantage now that you know. When your eyes lock on the spot the brain will signal the fingers to release the string. Be careful and don't work at making this happen because the arrow is going where your eyes are focused when you let the string go. Just be aware that it's happening,no more.
I don't like the open hand on the bow because I always see people who do that are grabbing the bow as soon as they release. No way to time that perfectly enough to keep from affecting the arrow flight. It's a bad habit and it seems that everybody wants to do it. Drives me crazy.
Great that you are enjoying your shooting more and you are right, a better method for hunting. Luckily your equipment seems to be set up right to shoot where you look. All you had to do was get out of the way and allow it to do the job.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

Went to the range to see if I could extended my shooting, 30 yards before was not a option, I was hitting a pie plate quit often, I am sold on this method, I the shot the course in the woods, shot from the compound markers, most were 30 and in. I was amazed, not once did yardage come into my mind, and shot well.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

keb said:


> Went to the range to see if I could extended my shooting, 30 yards before was not a option, I was hitting a pie plate quit often, I am sold on this method, I the shot the course in the woods, shot from the compound markers, most were 30 and in. I was amazed, not once did yardage come into my mind, and shot well.



:set1_applaud:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

keb said:


> Went to the range to see if I could extended my shooting, 30 yards before was not a option, I was hitting a pie plate quit often, I am sold on this method, I the shot the course in the woods, shot from the compound markers, most were 30 and in. I was amazed, not once did yardage come into my mind, and shot well.


Nice going, glad it works for you.


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