# Vision problems a symptom of target panic?



## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

I apologize in advance for the very long post. But, I'd plead that you read it all. I'd really appreciate it. 

I am posting this here, because I really do feel like this is a competitive target archery problem for me. I am really hoping that someone else here has experienced what I am experiencing, and that they have found a solution. My thought is that a competitive target archer is more likely to be aware of the whole psychological aspect of archery. So, here is what I know:

I am 43 years old, and roughly 6 months ago (for the first time ever) I started infrequently experiencing blurred vision and double vision "a few" seconds into my shot sequence. At first, this would only happen if my hinge took MUCH longer than normal to fire. However, over the past 6 months, the problem has progressed to the point that if I don't execute within 3-4 seconds (optimal sequence timing) from visual alignment of the peep-housing-target - it happens. 

At first, I suspected that my eyes were just getting older, and that I'd need glasses...maybe go to lens & verifier, etc.

I went to see an eye doctor mid summer. I was diagnosed with the slightest astigmatism they'd reportedly ever seen, in my dominant (right) eye. Slight enough they they couldn't believe it was causing me a problem. They gave me reading glasses to wear while doing computer work. But, said there's nothing wrong with my far vision & that the glasses wont help for driving, shooting, etc. They also gave me eye drops, reporting that my eyes were dry. None of this has helped over the last 6 months.

So, in addition to glasses and eye drops, I have tried different sized peeps, different sized pins, various reticles - none have any impact. Lenses & verifiers make it worse. It happens no matter which bow I use, and is independent of draw weight. It happens regardless of range (i.e 10 yds, 20 yds, 30 yds...). It happens whether I shoot with both eyes open, or just right eye open (my default norm is both eyes open). 

Once it happens, I can't recuperate from it - unless I break visual alignment. Once I break visual alignment, vision returns to normal - and falls apart immediately if I try to break & re-establish visual alignment without letting down. If I let down, I can restart the shot sequence, and vision will deteriorate in 3-4 seconds (or often less). 

Here's where things get interesting...

I use a hinge for target archery, because my brain just wont let me forget (for more than 12 arrows or so) that I can punch a thumb trigger. However, if I draw with a thumb release (with my thumb off the trigger) - I can hold all day (figuratively), and I can see all day (figuratively). I use a stan black jack and a stan sx3 - which are nearly identical in size & shape. So, I cant help but conclude that the only difference between the two situations is that, with the thumb release, my brain knows that the release wont fire...therefore, no anxiety. Ergo - I conclude target panic, and not a visual or medical issue. But, can target panic really cause visual symptoms?

If I fire a thumb release like my conscious mind wants to (i.e. surprise release due to hand stretch rather than thumb punch) - I'll start getting double vision with a thumb release too. 

I've done the best I can to find a sweet spot in my hinge that will fire inside of my psychological capacity for a shot sequence. I can get about 75% of my shots off before my vision falls apart. The times I can't - its because I did something kinematically wrong. However, once it happens, it becomes more likely to occur on future shot sequences, sooner, and seemingly regardless of form.

Really hoping someone can help. I've fought target panic in the past, and felt like I've (mostly) over come other manifestations of it. But, if these vision problems are really a symtom of target panic - I don't know how to get past it. 

So far, Ive tried to just shoot as much as I can, focus on the good shots, ignore the ones where my vision falls apart & hope that confidence rises and anxiety (if that's what it is) decreases. Also, working alot of blank bailing...

Anyone with similar past experiences....? Anyone get past it...and how, please?

TIA


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Do you know what you are doing as far as breathing goes during the shot?
If you know you are just holding to see if it comes, you may be breathing; where you may be holding your breath when the shots count.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Mahly said:


> Do you know what you are doing as far as breathing goes during the shot?
> If you know you are just holding to see if it comes, you may be breathing; where you may be holding your breath when the shots count.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I hold my breath while shooting. I do it subconsciously & didn't even realize I did it until someone else pointed it out. 

I assume that I am also holding my breath during a test draw with the thumb release. I'll try it later and pay attention to it. 

Either way - I should be able to hold my breath for alot longer than 4 seconds without vision problems. 

I just held my breath for a full minute while focusing on a distant point - no issue.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I'd bet that it is the astigmatism and your optometrist doesn't know enough about archery and what you're doing to know if it's causing a problem or not. An astigmatism is just a defect on the lens of your eye that doesn't allow light to focus on the retina and that creates blurred vision. When we put a peep sight in front of our eye, the eye will try focusing on the peep, we have to force our focus to the target. When people have vision problems, this becomes more difficult and as your eye is trying to focus, it's literally changing the shape of the lens. Your lens is changing to focus on the peep and it's changing in a way that the astigmatism is causing increased blurriness. That's when you see double and lose focus. You look away, the lens changes back and you can see clearly again. 

If it were me, I'd try shooting without a peep for a while. Just take it out and use a nose kisser or a small kisser button for another reference. If you can do that without getting double vision, then you know it's the peep and most likely because of what I detailed above. If you still get the problem, then it's not the peep and may be something else. Because you're also experiencing this while closing the left eye, the problem is most likely with your right eye.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> I'd bet that it is the astigmatism and your optometrist doesn't know enough about archery and what you're doing to know if it's causing a problem or not. An astigmatism is just a defect on the lens of your eye that doesn't allow light to focus on the retina and that creates blurred vision. When we put a peep sight in front of our eye, the eye will try focusing on the peep, we have to force our focus to the target. When people have vision problems, this becomes more difficult and as your eye is trying to focus, it's literally changing the shape of the lens. Your lens is changing to focus on the peep and it's changing in a way that the astigmatism is causing increased blurriness. That's when you see double and lose focus. You look away, the lens changes back and you can see clearly again.
> 
> If it were me, I'd try shooting without a peep for a while. Just take it out and use a nose kisser or a small kisser button for another reference. If you can do that without getting double vision, then you know it's the peep and most likely because of what I detailed above. If you still get the problem, then it's not the peep and may be something else. Because you're also experiencing this while closing the left eye, the problem is most likely with your right eye.


Thanks for chiming in. I hoped you would pop up. 

Are you suggesting that I shoot without a peep, as an experiment? Or are you suggesting that I should tournaments without a peep?

I have doubts that I can be precise enough without a peep...


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Thanks for chiming in. I hoped you would pop up.
> 
> Are you suggesting that I shoot without a peep, as an experiment? Or are you suggesting that I should tournaments without a peep?
> 
> I have doubts that I can be precise enough without a peep...


More of an experiment to try and diagnose the problem. You have to start eliminating variables in a situation like this.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> More of an experiment to try and diagnose the problem. You have to start eliminating variables in a situation like this.


I'll give it a try and report back. Thx


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## hunterdan49 (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm in for the reading and results .I to have the same problem


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Maybe. If so it's psychosomatic. This means it's created by the mind. Tp is also created in the mind so yeah it's a possibility.

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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Can you pull against some cord and operate each release without this vision problem setting in?
Let's say you "visualize" making a shot, does the vision problem set in?

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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Can you pull against some cord and operate each release without this vision problem setting in?


Yes



Normash Shwacks said:


> Let's say you "visualize" making a shot, does the vision problem set in?


No


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

try this shoot the thumb button but instead of rotation as a trigger. set the trigger tension very high and set the release to go off with adding more and more pulling weight until the shot breaks. just try it to see if that has the same effect on your vision.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

1tiger said:


> try this shoot the thumb button but instead of rotation as a trigger. set the trigger tension very high and set the release to go off with adding more and more pulling weight until the shot breaks. just try it to see if that has the same effect on your vision.


This is exactly how I have my thumb release set. I have tried firing the thumb release 2 different ways with the same setting (stiff thumb, zero travel). 

Firing method one is to put the thumb barrel in the meat of my thumb muscle and hook my thumb on/over it. After I settle into anchor, I get my release elbow into position and then exercise LAN muscles as I let my release hand flatten into a straight j-hook, while keeping my thumb stationary (in the original hooked position). In this firing method, the thumb release behaves like a hinge, and I can get a surprise release without rotation. This works great, unless it takes a little too long to fire. Then I get the vision issue. This is no better or worse than a hinge - because it is the same. 

Method two is to use the thumb barrel as a trigger. My conscious mind wants to gradually apply pressure to the trigger as I focus on the target. In this approach, I should get a surprise release - just like you should by applying gradual pressure to a rifle trigger. However, after about 12 arrows, my brain figures out that I have a trigger to punch. So, then I get stuck in trigger punching mode, and have to get away from the thumb release again.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

1tiger said:


> try this shoot the thumb button but instead of rotation as a trigger. set the trigger tension very high and set the release to go off with adding more and more pulling weight until the shot breaks. just try it to see if that has the same effect on your vision.


I also have a stan perfex resistance release. Which (if I understand) should mimic your suggested method. I also have vision problems with that release.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

The short answer is that, based on the descriptions of your shot, the probability is very very high (98% or greater) that it's target panic, not 100% but that confidence is certainly high enough to begin with troubleshooting this as a nominal anticipation issue.

The long answer is too long to repost here, so I'll only refer you to the AT archives on the subject of TP generally.

The medium-short answer is as follows: Your post #13 describes nearly textbook anticipation of the release. This is caused by an attempt to command-shoot in both scenarios: in the first scenario, you attempt to time the shot (command-shoot) after the "window" for a surprise release has passed, and in the second scenario you just attempt to time the shot period by squeezing the trigger, from the get-go.

In scenario #1, it sounds like you've already figured out the surprise release, but you simply haven't practiced a) detecting the actual passing of the "window" and b) canceling the shot once a) has occurred.

So I don't think you're in as bad a shape as it may appear. I'd simply resume practicing your method #1 (which sounds like a typical surprise release method) but simply cancel the shot and let down as soon as you recognize the "window" of time has expired. In other words, don't ever do your scenario #2. Not only don't attempt to command-shoot to get rid of the arrow, but just don't command-shoot ever, under any circumstances; instead practice cancelling the shot and starting over.

Don't ask me why I know all this.

lee.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

lees said:


> The short answer is that, based on the descriptions of your shot, the probability is very very high (98% or greater) that it's target panic, not 100% but certainly high enough to begin with troubleshooting this as a nominal anticipation issue.
> 
> The long answer is too long to repost here, so I'll only refer you to the AT archives on the subject of TP generally.
> 
> ...


Lees,

Thanks for the input. Id really like to stay away from the thumb trigger for target archery (if I can). I would really like to use the hinge for target, if possible. If I use the hinge, I have a couple of challenges with your suggested b) if a) approach.

One challenge (for hinge or thumb) is that I'm not sure how to correctly measure / identify a passed window, before I get to vision break down. I would really like for my release to fire 3-4 seconds from visual alignment because this seems to be long enough to comfortably settle and short enough not to cause too much stress. But, it seems logical that counting out seconds would create anxiety, and anticipation of the window closing. Another person suggested that I recite the verse of a song in my head. Either method of measuring a window seems that it would cause anticipation of the window closing. If I wait for vision problems to start to let down, they seem to be worse for future shots. How do you suggest one measure a window?

Secondly, letting down with a hinge has been challenging & I don't want to be plunking arrows past the foul line. Maybe I just need to practice letting down more with the hinge. Most of the time (until a few months ago) I haven't had this problem or a reason to let down very often, and I haven't cared if I dropped an arrow during home practice. 

I'll give letting down more an honest try. But, I would like to better understand how to measure a window and determine that it's passed - in a way that is not going to cause more trouble.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

It's surprising to me that so many are so quick to label this as TP and say it's in your head. Maybe it's because I know what an astigmatism is and working in healthcare, I routinely diagnose problems for patients but this description makes me fairly certain that it's a problem with the eye and not a problem with the "head". It may be leading to a potential bad shooting habit, maybe already has developed, but the eyes don't go blurry and cause double vision when you get anxious to shoot a shot. They do that because they're unable to focus. 

When we throw a peep sight in front of one eye, it's actually putting quite a bit of strain on our vision system to focus through it, throw in a lens in the scope and that's another source of eye strain. If there's a reason that the eye can't focus properly, it's very likely that it won't be able to perform and problems like this can arise. The optometrist is probably right that for the average person, doing average daily tasks, your astigmatism probably isn't bad enough to cause a problem. Problem is, you're not doing average daily tasks when you're forcing that eye to focus through a tiny hole while seeing a pin and looking through a lens to a target that's 20 yards away. I'm pretty confident that you'll be able to take the peep away and not have the problem, assuming you don't put the string in front of your eye to cause a string blur.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Huntinsker: 

I’m trying to understand how you conclude this is caused by the astigmatism and is not TP when NY Whitetail states that this vision loss does not happen when he draws with no intention of making the shot. He says “..if I draw with a thumb release (with my thumb off the trigger) - I can hold all day...and I can see all day.”

To me, that’s a textbook sign of TP.


NY: 

I’m not a medical professional, but this strikes me as possibly a symptom of an underlying neurological problem, maybe related to blood pressure caused by stress. Do you have any cardiac issues such as high BP? Do you experience this vision problem with any other activity that requires eye focus combined with a success/failure outcome such as shooting a rifle?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Stash said:


> Huntinsker:
> 
> I’m trying to understand how you conclude this is caused by the astigmatism and is not TP when NY Whitetail states that this vision loss does not happen when he draws with no intention of making the shot. He says “..if I draw with a thumb release (with my thumb off the trigger) - I can hold all day...and I can see all day.”
> 
> ...


I honestly didn't see that. That may lean more to psychosomatic but certainly not a textbook or even remotely common symptom of TP to have vision disturbances like double vision or blurring vision. It could also mean that he's not trying to focus through the peep when he knows he's not going to shoot with the thumb trigger which may keep his eye from trying to shift focus and cause the problem. Either way, getting rid of the peep and trying to shoot without would tell us a lot.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

By "textbook" I obviously don't mean that this exact symptom is common. 

I meant, if a symptom occurs when the archer is involved in a success/fail situation (like shooting at a target) and doesn't occur in a no-judgement situation (blank bale, up close), then THAT's "textbook".

NY - I couldn't find in your posts - are you using a scope with lens, or just pins? I suspect pins because you mentioned a verifier (clarifier is for a lens), but it might be useful information.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

So you already have a slight astigmatism. This is possibly caused by psychosomatic illness like alot of things. The subconscious is the source of psychosomatic illness AND Target panic. The subconscious is there to help. Let's say you're jumping off a high spot into the lake. you know it's safe . your friends did it. the water's deep enough. the subconscious will freeze you. It's solutions aren't always logical though. Let's say you can't hold entirely still on the bull. The subconscious will "help" you by not allowing you to put a pin on a bull at all. It's a solution but not a very logical one. So if this is true then it may be true the subconscious is "helping" you shoot your bow by not allowing you to see. 

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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

NY_Whitetail said:


> One challenge (for hinge or thumb) is that I'm not sure how to correctly measure / identify a passed window, before I get to vision break down. I would really like for my release to fire 3-4 seconds from visual alignment because this seems to be long enough to comfortably settle and short enough not to cause too much stress. But, it seems logical that counting out seconds would create anxiety, and anticipation of the window closing. Another person suggested that I recite the verse of a song in my head. Either method of measuring a window seems that it would cause anticipation of the window closing. If I wait for vision problems to start to let down, they seem to be worse for future shots. How do you suggest one measure a window?


The short answer is to start by doing as you suggest: simply do a slow count to 3 or 4 starting when you initiate your pull. If you get to 3 or 4 without a kapow, let down. The song idea is fine too. As long as you maintain the increase in pressure throughout.

The long answer is too long to post here, I'll again just point you to the archives for complete discussion of TP, anticipation and command shooting.

The medium-short answer is as follows: the goal is to reduce the *precision* of the timing of your shot, to the point that the timing of the release itself is *too imprecise* to be able to anticipate. That;s why the pull-through method is often preferred because it a) lasts a comparatively *long* time vs the release and b) is among the easiest to cause the "kapow" to go off at a sufficiently *ambiguous instant within a "window" * of time. 

In plainer language, it's ok to start your pull at instant X and steadily increase it consciously for 3 or 4 seconds as long as you can't tell "exactly when" in that window the release is going to fire. "Can't tell when" means approximately an ambiguity of 1 second or more in my personal experimentation but preferably as much as 2. If you can "know when" the release is going to fire to a precision shorter than 1 sec max, you will start to become able to anticipate it and that leads to TP. 

That's the key to eliminating anticipation issues. If you don't know "when it's going to go off", you can't anticipate the shot and the TP will clear up on its own. 

Like I said, don't ask me how I know all this. 

So that'd be the first thing to try: A fuzzy idea of 3 to 4 seconds in which you continuously increase your pull and that's all you do is a good starting point. Eventually you'll refine that window and your shot will start to have a rhythm to it, even though you're still not able to anticipate the instant of the kapow....

lee.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I’m just going to repeat that there is a possibility of an underlying medical condition causing this, and it shouldn’t be ignored or bypassed. 
Best to consider looking into it.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Huntinsker said:


> It's surprising to me that so many are so quick to label this as TP and say it's in your head. Maybe it's because I know what an astigmatism is and working in healthcare, I routinely diagnose problems for patients but this description makes me fairly certain that it's a problem with the eye and not a problem with the "head".


I have astigmatism to some degree in both eyes and it doesn't remotely behave the way the OP describes. OTOH, the description he does give of his shot routine most definitely involves command-shooting, so by Occam's Razer.... 

It's a remote possibility that it's actually a vision problem, but by his account, I'd say it's a very remote possibility....

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Stash said:


> I’m just going to repeat that there is a possibility of an underlying medical condition causing this, and it shouldn’t be ignored or bypassed.
> Best to consider looking into it.


Possible, but really and truly the least plausible explanation by miles and miles. A simple anticipation problem is a far better fit with the data (such as it is)...

lee.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I’m not going to belabour the point, but google “vision loss due to stress” and a whole bunch of stuff comes up. 



> "There is clear evidence of a psychosomatic component to vision loss, as stress is an important cause, not just a consequence, of progressive vision loss resulting from diseases such as glaucoma, optic neuropathy, diabetic retinopathy, and age-related macular degeneration," said lead investigator for the study Bernhard Sabel, Director of the Institute of Medical Psychology at Magdeburg University in Germany.


Like I said, something to consider that should involve professional consultation.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> So you already have a slight astigmatism. This is possibly caused by psychosomatic illness like alot of things. The subconscious is the source of psychosomatic illness AND Target panic. The subconscious is there to help. Let's say you're jumping off a high spot into the lake. you know it's safe . your friends did it. the water's deep enough. the subconscious will freeze you. It's solutions aren't always logical though. Let's say you can't hold entirely still on the bull. The subconscious will "help" you by not allowing you to put a pin on a bull at all. It's a solution but not a very logical one. So if this is true then it may be true the subconscious is "helping" you shoot your bow by not allowing you to see.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Are you suggesting that the physical defect that the optometrist found in the curvature of the cornea or the lens of the OPs eye could be psychosomatic? I've treated a lot of people who actually do have psychosomatic pain and symptoms but none of them caused actual physical defect. That's the whole point of them being psychosomatic. If there were actually physical, they wouldn't be psychosomatic.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Huntinsker said:


> Are you suggesting that the physical defect that the optometrist found in the curvature of the cornea or the lens of the OPs eye could be psychosomatic? I've treated a lot of people who actually do have psychosomatic pain and symptoms but none of them caused actual physical defect. That's the whole point of them being psychosomatic. If there were actually physical, they wouldn't be psychosomatic.


Yes. You could remember something and blush. The mind controls the body.

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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Yes. You could remember something and blush. The mind controls the body.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Haha okay. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Maybe since the astigmatism is only in the dominant eye, as you try to focus harder the non-dominant eye is being used to assist. Try putting a patch over the non-dominant eye. That is just a guess. My other thought on the matter is to agree that it is probably some form of TP.

The reason for my guess is that I have astigmatism in both eyes and it seems to be more of a problem as I get more visual fatigue. I work in IT so I spend large chunks of time at a computer and my eyes can get quite tired. I find shooting in indoor lighting that is poor also fatigues my vision more.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Huntinsker said:


> Haha okay. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.


A memory can increase a person's heart rate.

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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

I see that alot of folks posted info and questions last night while I was away. I really appreciate the ideas, and I'll respond to each one separately. But, first, I wanted to share some experimentation from last night. 

I had very limited time last night, so I didn't try removing the peep sight yet. But, another fellow mentioned maybe trying a vision blocker for the non-dominant eye. I happened to have a double vision blocker (the kind that mounts on your scope with rubber bands) from when I first started shooting with both eyes open. I originally tried the double vision blocker because I had a little double vision when I first started shooting with both eyes. However, I didn't like it because it made my sight picture feel dark & restricted, and because the very minor double vision resolved after getting used to shooting with both eyes.

At any rate, I tried several shots last night with the double vision blocker installed (and all other elements remaining the same). 

Part of what I found was what I thought I remembered - which is that it makes the sight picture very dark. I feel like I am straining to look through a tunnel. I don't feel open and relaxed...maybe that would ease over time. 

The other thing I found is that my "vision" problem has two distinct components (i.e. blurring, and double vision). I say it that way because, with the double vision blocker, my vision still blurs after 4-5 seconds of holding. But, I don't get the double vision at all. 

It seems like I can hold for a second or so longer before my vision breaks down. But, once it does, my reticle disappears and the target becomes so blurry that all the rings bleed together. 

I did the double vision blocker experiment with a 2x lens (which is what has been in the scope) - which tends to make the target a little more blurry, than with naked vision, all on its own. So, I want to try the double vision blocker again tonight without a lens and see what happens. I will let you know. 

But, so far, I am inclined to conclude that the culprit (to be focused on, whether a cause or a symptom) is the blurring vision - as the accompanying double vision only seems to be a result of the blurring vision.

Another piece of information that might be useful (that no one asked yet) is peep size. I have tried everything from 1/8" to 5/16" and I have the same issues. But, another fellow suggested that I should try something smaller than 1/8".

I had never gone below 1/8" in the past because it was too dark for 3D. But, maybe it would work for indoor. So, I will try that also - with and without the double vision blocker, and with and without a lens.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> A memory can increase a person's heart rate.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It's clear you don't quite understand enough about human anatomy and physiology to continue this argument. Suffice to say that you can't "think" a physical defect into the body. They either happen by physical means or they don't.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> I see that alot of folks posted info and questions last night while I was away. I really appreciate the ideas, and I'll respond to each one separately. But, first, I wanted to share some experimentation from last night.
> 
> I had very limited time last night, so I didn't try removing the peep sight yet. But, another fellow mentioned maybe trying a vision blocker for the non-dominant eye. I happened to have a double vision blocker (the kind that mounts on your scope with rubber bands) from when I first started shooting with both eyes open. I originally tried the double vision blocker because I had a little double vision when I first started shooting with both eyes. However, I didn't like it because it made my sight picture feel dark & restricted, and because the very minor double vision resolved after getting used to shooting with both eyes.
> 
> ...


Seems to follow what I thought might happen. The eye can't focus so your brain shifts focus to the non-dominant eye, which is where the double vision comes in. Good work and keep narrowing the variables. You'll figure it out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Huntinsker said:


> It's clear you don't quite understand enough about human anatomy and physiology to continue this argument. Suffice to say that you can't "think" a physical defect into the body. They either happen by physical means or they don't.


Explain stress-induced stomach ulcers.

And why does my blood pressure go up when I’m upset or angry?


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Stash said:


> NY:
> 
> I’m not a medical professional, but this strikes me as possibly a symptom of an underlying neurological problem, maybe related to blood pressure caused by stress. Do you have any cardiac issues such as high BP? Do you experience this vision problem with any other activity that requires eye focus combined with a success/failure outcome such as shooting a rifle?


I do not have any cardiac or neurological disorders that I am aware of. I am about 5'/8" 155 lbs, very physically active. My self assessment is that I am very able & healthy. Blood pressure (last reading, October 2019) was 138/85. The reading before that (June 2019) was 125/86.

So, some might say that the 85-86 puts me at the very edge of prehypertension. I have a family history of high blood pressure and diabetes. But, I have no signs of onset of either (unless you think BP reading or described vision symptoms are signs).

I do not have these vision issues during any other activity, including rifle, shotgun, etc. I actually do quite well with a rifle.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Stash said:


> NY - I couldn't find in your posts - are you using a scope with lens, or just pins? I suspect pins because you mentioned a verifier (clarifier is for a lens), but it might be useful information.


I've tried various combinations. Lens (2-4x), no lens, pins, circle reticles, clarifiers, verifiers, etc. I've found that any combination that includes any clarifier or verify makes vision immediately worse. The 4x lens is a little more blurry than I'd like. I've found that I have vision issues with all combinations.

So, while I typically use a single pin with no lens for out door, my current setup (getting ready for indoor) has a 2x lens with a circle reticle, no clarifier or verifier). I find that the circle reticle allows me to look directly through the circle at the center of the target and is less stressful than a pin.

Using a circle reticle, and during my shot sequence, I center the circle on the target circle (9 ring) after visually aligning the peep and sight housing. From that point on, I dont pay attention to the reticle, I just stare through it at the target and wait for fire.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

lees said:


> In plainer language, it's ok to start your pull at instant X and steadily increase it consciously for 3 or 4 seconds as long as you can't tell "exactly when" in that window the release is going to fire. "Can't tell when" means approximately an ambiguity of 1 second or more in my personal experimentation but preferably as much as 2. If you can "know when" the release is going to fire to a precision shorter than 1 sec max, you will start to become able to anticipate it and that leads to TP.
> 
> That's the key to eliminating anticipation issues. If you don't know "when it's going to go off", you can't anticipate the shot and the TP will clear up on its own.
> 
> ...


I think this is what Im doing....sort of. I've found that if I focus on pulling (e.g. rearward elbow movement), I get high POI every once in a while (talking like high 10 instead of X). But, if I focus on getting my release elbow behind my head (first), then counting slowly while I exercise LAN (i.e. sweeping elbow in the direction my back is facing) I am much more repeatable. Therefore, my shot sequence has been to draw, reach anchor, achieve visual peep / scope alignment, get release elbow in position, center reticle and count / recite song verse while slowly sweeping release elbow. This works great when it works great - but, if I take too long to fire, vision breaks down.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

lees said:


> I have astigmatism to some degree in both eyes and it doesn't remotely behave the way the OP describes. OTOH, the description he does give of his shot routine most definitely involves command-shooting, so by Occam's Razer....
> 
> It's a remote possibility that it's actually a vision problem, but by his account, I'd say it's a very remote possibility....
> 
> lee.


Lee, 

Just to be clear and avoid confusion. My thumb release shot sequence is admittedly prone to command shooting. I don't believe that my hinge shot sequence is - which is why I keep saying that I want to stay with the hinge for target. I described my hinge shot sequence in my previous post.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Stash said:


> I’m not going to belabour the point, but google “vision loss due to stress” and a whole bunch of stuff comes up.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, something to consider that should involve professional consultation.


Stash, 

I am trying to cover this base as well. As I described, I've been to see an eye doctor - and may have ruled out a significant vision problem. Though, a slight vision problem (as diagnosed) could be at play. My BP is probably ok. I do have a family history of adult onset diabetes. So, that is something I will ask my doctor about.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

lcaillo said:


> Maybe since the astigmatism is only in the dominant eye, as you try to focus harder the non-dominant eye is being used to assist. Try putting a patch over the non-dominant eye.


After the double vision blocker test, I think this is exactly what is happening. However, double vision is preceded by blurring - which is coming from the right eye (the one with a diagnosed astigmatism). So, I feel like I need to figure out what is causing the right eye blurring and how to stop it.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Stash said:


> NY:
> 
> I’m not a medical professional, but this strikes me as possibly a symptom of an underlying neurological problem, maybe related to blood pressure caused by stress. Do you have any cardiac issues such as high BP? Do you experience this vision problem with any other activity that requires eye focus combined with a success/failure outcome such as shooting a rifle?


Fasting glucose is 88-90 mg/dL, historically, and has been stable for over one year (4 readings). So, guessing that diabetes onset is out.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Stash said:


> Explain stress-induced stomach ulcers.
> 
> And why does my blood pressure go up when I’m upset or angry?


I don't have time to explain all the processes of the body. Google it or take the years of college and grad school like I did if you want the details. I'll simplify. Stomach acid production and heart rate are partially controlled by hormones that are created in the brain and released to the body. When we get emotionally stressed, those hormones are released from the brain and cause the physical reaction to create more acid or to increase the heart rate. There is no hormone in the body that can cause an astigmatism like there is no hormone in the body that can cause a fracture in a bone. Those are very different things and are not controlled by the body. 

Most astigmatisms are congenital, meaning they were present at birth and are essentially a birth defect. You're not "thinking" your way into a birth defect.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Huntinsker said:


> It's clear you don't quite understand enough about human anatomy and physiology to continue this argument. Suffice to say that you can't "think" a physical defect into the body. They either happen by physical means or they don't.


Memory exists in the mind. Certain memories will cause physical manifestations such a,s blushing,increased heart rate and MANY other things. It's easily demonstrated. The mind controls the body. It's easily provable. Especially if you've ever had Target panic and the mind wouldn't allow you to put a pin on a bull and keep it there.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

It's interesting you can shoot a gun without problems. I think by process of elimination you pinpoint the exact thing in archery that causes the problem.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Memory exists in the mind. Certain memories will cause physical manifestations such a,s blushing,increased heart rate and MANY other things. It's easily demonstrated. The mind controls the body. It's easily provable. Especially if you've ever had Target panic and the mind wouldn't allow you to put a pin on a bull and keep it there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Blushing, heart rate and other physical manifestations of emotional stress are processes in the body that are controlled by stress induced hormones. Even putting a pin on a target is a process. They are not physical defects that were with you from birth. An astigmatism is not a process in the body, it is a physical flaw in the eye. There is a very real difference between a physical flaw and a body process and if you can't see that then there's no point in me arguing with you about it.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

NY_Whitetail said:


> I think this is what Im doing....sort of. I've found that if I focus on pulling (e.g. rearward elbow movement), I get high POI every once in a while (talking like high 10 instead of X). But, if I focus on getting my release elbow behind my head (first), then counting slowly while I exercise LAN (i.e. sweeping elbow in the direction my back is facing) I am much more repeatable. Therefore, my shot sequence has been to draw, reach anchor, achieve visual peep / scope alignment, get release elbow in position, center reticle and count / recite song verse while slowly sweeping release elbow. This works great when it works great - but, if I take too long to fire, vision breaks down.


Your description of the what and when of your visual disturbances here sounds perfectly nominal to me. In fact, it's the rare individual, even in full good health, who can focus the aiming eye like the proverbial "laser beam" on a tiny X 20 yards away through two small holes for longer than 4 seconds without the eye beginning to water. And then start squinting, or bulging the eye and so on - which is likely the source of the blurred vision in the aiming eye after that time period. 

Again don't ask me why I know this happens and how it happens.

So again I think the strategy at this point is simply practicing your final shot execution until your shot window is only 3 seconds (or so) max in overall length. That's just a matter of arrows through the bow over and over, repeating that sequence you describe that gives you the best result. Then you'll start to see a rhythm to your shot as your execution becomes more subconscious and consistent. Consciously pulling to a conceptual object behind you with LAN 2 sounds like the best approach for you at this time, tho eventually with practice you may end up with a modification of that. But you have to find that by trial and error in the usual way. Just wash/rinse/repeat on the line at a target until you find the option that you can repeat the best.

As for the release type, by all means I'd suggest shooting the hinge if that makes it harder for you to command-shoot. The hinge and the tension style release both have that advantage of making you have to really heave the shot off when you're breaking down and attempting to time the shot. Unlike a trigger release, where it's so easy to just thwap it or mash a trigger with an index finger or thumb, a hinge forces you to give it a big yank with a bunch of large muscles in the body, something that's much easier to recognize that you're doing it. And not make the same mistake again on the next shot. 

Don't listen to anyone that says you must use a thumb trigger or this or that type of release or you won't learn how to shoot "properly". Use the one that gives you the easiest-to-repeat surprise release. 

Otherwise, I still think you're dealing with an ordinary case of target panic, which is easily treatable with the surprise release. Which you already seem to have a basic technique for. So I'd suggest just "mindful practice" of your final shot execution at this point....

my .02,

lee.


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## Billie (Jul 1, 2004)

Huntinsker said:


> Blushing, heart rate and other physical manifestations of emotional stress are processes in the body that are controlled by stress induced hormones. Even putting a pin on a target is a process. They are not physical defects that were with you from birth. An astigmatism is not a process in the body, it is a physical flaw in the eye. There is a very real difference between a physical flaw and a body process and if you can't see that then there's no point in me arguing with you about it.


You are correct. There is a great difference between a “process” and “defect”, or “flaw”, but it won’t matter. Not trying to troll here, just a heads up. I’ve had this argument with norm before, as well as several about vaccines, the moon landing and flat earth. Guess which sides of the arguments we were on? 
A persons mind is a very powerful thing, but a thought is not going to cause astigmatism. There is a lot of good advice here for the OP, if he weeds through the least logical.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Lee,
> 
> Just to be clear and avoid confusion. My thumb release shot sequence is admittedly prone to command shooting. I don't believe that my hinge shot sequence is - which is why I keep saying that I want to stay with the hinge for target. I described my hinge shot sequence in my previous post.


For what it's worth, triggers are somewhat more difficult to learn a surprise release with, mainly because they're activated with finger tips and thumbs. Our fingers and even thumbs are extremely sensitive and evolved for very fine manipulation of items in our environment. So they use a lot of brain power, especially for delicate tasks like trying to press a trigger at exactly such-and-such a moment. 

The hinge and pull-through releases rely more heavily on larger, dumber muscles in the arms, shoulders and back. These don't use as much brain power to train to do a particular task, so they're less "noisy" in our brains.

Think of it like standing outside a football stadium. When you activate your fingertip to do a delicate operation, inside the brain that's like the crowd cheering when a touchdown is made. When you do something like tense your large back muscles, that's maybe just barely audible among the mumble of the crowd. Just so you know I"m not making this up - neuroscientists take advantage of these facts to measure things like emotional responses in the brain to various stimuli like looking at certain types of pictures inside MRI machines and so on. 

It's the same principle with our release aids. The dumbest-to-use one is typically the easiest one to learn how to use at first . 

But absolutely world records and etc have been shot with the hinge, so my all means stick with it if it works for you.

lee.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Normash Shwacks said:


> It's interesting you can shoot a gun without problems. I think by process of elimination you pinpoint the exact thing in archery that causes the problem.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It is...

I have a couple of theories. 

One is centered around confidence & its potential relationship to TP. I have always been good with a rifle & I usually know before I touch the trigger if I am going to make my shot or not. I don't think about visual alignment, I don't pray I hit the target, I don't think about much of anything. Once I get in my eyebox and have achieved a natural point of aim - I want to be nothing but a straight back trigger pulling machine. Archery has been a more difficult feeling learning curve. It seems (to me) much more difficult to draw and hold a bow without imparting undesirable forces on it, than it is to do the same with a rifle. Therefore, there are more elements of the archery shot process to consider, think about, even obsess over. Shortly stated, target archery is a much more complicated feeling and stressful process for me. That having been said, 8 months ago, I was feeling very comfortable and shooting very well with my current target bow set up.

The other theory is about actual vision. When I look through a rifle scope, I don't see the eyepiece. I only see the reticle and the outer black circle created by the objective lens. Therefore, even though the eye piece is probably just as close to my eye as a peep sight is, I don't feel it there. Conversely, with a bow, I very much feel a peep sight close to my eye...and I do feel (some times more than others) that it takes a bit of conscious effort to make my eyes look through it rather than focus on it. I never feel like I am consciously trying not to focus on a rifle scope eyepiece. Along these lines, I have a theory that (like other parts of the archery process) its a fight. Its a fight to keep my eyes focused on the target...not on the peep, not on the scope housing, not on the reticle. I wonder if the blurring occurs because focus on the target is breaking down and transitioning to the peep. The question, though, is (if thats happening) why is that happening.

My honest suspicion is the latter theory & I may find out by removing the peep and seeing how accurate I can be without one. It should be a good test of whether or not the issue is preoccupation with accuracy (AKA - TP). 

By the way, I am considering all variables and making effort to eliminate all possible causes as best as I can. So, with all due respect and appreciation for everyone, there's no need to conceptually prove that TP is more likely than a legitimate vision problem or vice versa - as I will be approaching them both as if they were of equal likelihood.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

lees said:


> Your description of the what and when of your visual disturbances here sounds perfectly nominal to me. In fact, it's the rare individual, even in full good health, who can focus the aiming eye like the proverbial "laser beam" on a tiny X 20 yards away through two small holes for longer than 4 seconds without the eye beginning to water. And then start squinting, or bulging the eye and so on - which is likely the source of the blurred vision in the aiming eye after that time period.
> 
> Again don't ask me why I know this happens and how it happens.
> 
> ...


Thanks for input. Will do.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Huntinsker said:


> Blushing, heart rate and other physical manifestations of emotional stress are processes in the body that are controlled by stress induced hormones. Even putting a pin on a target is a process. They are not physical defects that were with you from birth. An astigmatism is not a process in the body, it is a physical flaw in the eye. There is a very real difference between a physical flaw and a body process and if you can't see that then there's no point in me arguing with you about it.


Oh. Ok. So according to big pharma there is no mind. Just a body and glands and hormones and pills and prescriptions. Ok. Good luck.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Billie said:


> You are correct. There is a great difference between a “process” and “defect”, or “flaw”, but it won’t matter. Not trying to troll here, just a heads up. I’ve had this argument with norm before, as well as several about vaccines, the moon landing and flat earth. Guess which sides of the arguments we were on?
> A persons mind is a very powerful thing, but a thought is not going to cause astigmatism. There is a lot of good advice here for the OP, if he weeds through the least logical.


Yes. The mind is powerful. However It's not a thing. The mind controls the body. This is easily demonstrated. So somehow you know where this line is drawn on how much control the mind has over the body. That's outstanding.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> It is...
> 
> I have a couple of theories.
> 
> ...


Another good test would be to try a left handed bow. Close/block the right eye, look through a peep and sight to a target with the left and see if the problem manifests. Even if it was just a little Genesis bow, if it's in your head, you should see it happen even on the left side of the body. If it's the right eye, you'd expect that the left wouldn't have the same problem.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Oh. Ok. So according to big pharma there is no mind. Just a body and glands and hormones and pills and prescriptions. Ok. Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Well I'm a DC so I don't do anything with "pharma". Just research, evidence and a knowledge of the body. And I also help people with psychosomatic pain. 

One of my best patients was a car accident victim that had a "mangled" right leg. She had constant pain and infections in the right foot for nearly 10 years before they amputated it. She still "had" pain in her foot.......that was no longer there. I told her all about neuroplasticity and how her "foot pain" was being created by a "memory" in her brain and when she started to understand, she no longer had the phantom limb pain. She also realized that the vast majority of her other pain was because her brain had been over emphasizing pain for years and she was in a "chronic pain condition". The brain can learn pain just like it can learn a task. It creates the neural pathways that can literally make pain a habit. Just like any other bad habit, we can create new neural pathways that override the old. We can never get rid of the bad pathways that were created but if we nurture the good pathways, the good habits, we can suppress the bad. She learned to suppress the bad and today I only see her occasionally and her pain response is now normal. Where before a sore muscle might cause her a 7/10 pain and weeks worth of it, it now causes a normal 2/10 ache for a day or two and it goes away.

I know what's going on and I know that the OPs astigmatism is not caused by his mind.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> Another good test would be to try a left handed bow. Close/block the right eye, look through a peep and sight to a target with the left and see if the problem manifests. Even if it was just a little Genesis bow, if it's in your head, you should see it happen even on the left side of the body. If it's the right eye, you'd expect that the left wouldn't have the same problem.


I thought about that too. Don't know anyone with a LH bow that I can think of. But will keep an eye out.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Huntinsker said:


> Well I'm a DC so I don't do anything with "pharma". Just research, evidence and a knowledge of the body. And I also help people with psychosomatic pain.
> 
> One of my best patients was a car accident victim that had a "mangled" right leg. She had constant pain and infections in the right foot for nearly 10 years before they amputated it. She still "had" pain in her foot.......that was no longer there. I told her all about neuroplasticity and how her "foot pain" was being created by a "memory" in her brain and when she started to understand, she no longer had the phantom limb pain. She also realized that the vast majority of her other pain was because her brain had been over emphasizing pain for years and she was in a "chronic pain condition". The brain can learn pain just like it can learn a task. It creates the neural pathways that can literally make pain a habit. Just like any other bad habit, we can create new neural pathways that override the old. We can never get rid of the bad pathways that were created but if we nurture the good pathways, the good habits, we can suppress the bad. She learned to suppress the bad and today I only see her occasionally and her pain response is now normal. Where before a sore muscle might cause her a 7/10 pain and weeks worth of it, it now causes a normal 2/10 ache for a day or two and it goes away.
> 
> I know what's going on and I know that the OPs astigmatism is not caused by his mind.


It's the mind. Not the brain. Certain thoughts will bring about increased blood flow we know as ........blushing. and alot of other physical manifestations. This is all uncharted teritory.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Normash Shwacks said:


> It's the mind. Not the brain. Certain thoughts will bring about increased blood flow we know as ........blushing. and alot of other physical manifestations. This is all uncharted teritory.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It's a good thing you have a better grasp on it than the researchers, scientists, surgeons, doctors and Ph.Ds that I learned from then. You should publish your findings.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> I thought about that too. Don't know anyone with a LH bow that I can think of. But will keep an eye out.


Are there any shops or ranges nearby that give lessons? They may be willing to put a peep and a sight on one of their Genesis bows for you to try quick.


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## Billie (Jul 1, 2004)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Yes. The mind is powerful. However It's not a thing. The mind controls the body. This is easily demonstrated. So somehow you know where this line is drawn on how much control the mind has over the body. That's outstanding.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Thank you for proving my point about using logic in an argument with you.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

I did some more experimenting last night. I feel like this is going really slowly. But, I am trying to do one thing at a time and give it time to settle in - so that I don't confound variables or say something didn't work because I didn't give it enough time.

Two nights ago, I tried the vision blocker with all other components the same (i.e. 2x lens, 3/32" peep, hinge). I found that my vision still blurred after 4-5 seconds (a second or so longer than without the vision blocker). But, when my vision did blur, I didn't get the double vision anymore.

I wanted to try the vision blocker with no lens. My thought process was that the lenses make things a little blurry all on their own - and I don't need any help making things blurry...especially if my right eye is fighting blur.

So, last night, I shot with the vision blocker, no lens and a single pin. I lost count around 60 arrows with no significant blurring. There were 2 arrows where I felt like it was starting to get blurry. But, I was able to recover by focusing more intensely. Furthermore, I was able to hold for 8-9 seconds with no issues.

Conscious breathing exercises before holding definitely help, when I can remember to do them. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the couple of arrows that started to get blurry were arrows that I forgot to breath ahead of time.

My only complaint was that I don't really like a pin for indoor, and no lens means no circle reticle...and a 0x lens wont match the target rings at 20 yds properly. But, those are (I guess) relatively minor concerns / details.

But, I don't get to celebrate yet...

I decided to shoot a little before work this morning (which I never do). I wanted to shoot a little before work for a couple reasons. One was that I wanted to make sure that we found a solution before I told folks we did, and the other was that I really enjoyed flinging 60 arrows without fighting with vision and losing...and I just plain wanted to shoot some more. 

This morning, with the same setup as last night (nothing changed), all my arrows were blurry - and I couldn't make it 2-3 seconds into holding before vision deteriorated. I am attributing this to morning eyes - and it reminded me of several things I'd been experiencing & hadn't mentioned yet.

I've noticed that if I shoot first thing in the morning (on weekends), or just before bed (when I'm very tired) - the blurring issue is more predominant than when I shoot mid day to before dinner. Combine that with the fact that I was a really good boy yesterday, and I wore my glasses at work all day...which I admittedly haven't been doing.

So, why was yesterday before dinner and this morning shooting so different?...time of day, eye acclimation, and proximity in time to wearing glasses. I mention the glasses because I remembered (after this mornings observations) that the eye doctor told me that they should help reduce eye strain. So, I'm starting to think that perhaps a large component of this issue is eye strain...

If I don't give my eyes enough time to acclimate, if I don't wear my glasses enough (to relieve strain), or if I shoot at the very end of the day when my eyes are tired - it is much worse. That's not panic...that's eye strain. I am not experiencing different levels of stress at different times of day...I am experiencing different levels of eye strain, and I am wondering if it is my eye that is giving up - not my brain.

The more I analyze, the more I think this is a vision issue that is causing stress - not a stress issue that is causing vision issues. 

Do I get frustrated and panicky if I can't see...yup. Can I not see because I am panicked....I'm not sure. But, I'm feeling like the answer is no. 

Thoughts? Where to go from here?

I do also plan to remove the peep and try that with & without the double vision blocker....in addition to wearing glasses at work, and continuing breathing exercises.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> Are there any shops or ranges nearby that give lessons? They may be willing to put a peep and a sight on one of their Genesis bows for you to try quick.


Probably - I have a couple of friends that work at shops that I can ask if we get that far. I hate to be a pain because they tend to be very busy with other folks. But, yes, that is a lever that I can pull if / when we get that far.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

When you’ve changed something and it seems to work when your eyes are NOT strained, but goes back to the blurriness when they ARE strained, have you checked the “no shoot” situation with the thumb-off-the-trigger release?

That to me is the confusing part. What physiological difference is there between when you plan to take the shot and when you don’t plan to take the shot.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Stash said:


> When you’ve changed something and it seems to work when your eyes are NOT strained, but goes back to the blurriness when they ARE strained, have you checked the “no shoot” situation with the thumb-off-the-trigger release?
> 
> That to me is the confusing part. What physiological difference is there between when you plan to take the shot and when you don’t plan to take the shot.


No. I didn't try that this morning. I should have. 

I did try it again last night...and did verify that I hold my breath when I try the "no shoot" scenario (as you call it). However, as I mentioned, last night I was able to hold for 8-9 seconds without a problem with the current setup and a hinge. That might not be "all day" (figuratively)...but, that's a long time and a lot longer than I intend to hold. 

But, to answer your question directly - I think it might be about eye strain. When I am trying to execute a shot, I am staring past all of the sight pieces (i.e. peep, housing, pin) and intensely trying to burn a hole in the target face. 

During the no shoot sequence, I think I am just looking through all of the sight pieces waiting to see something happen....that doesn't. In other words, I think that the no shoot scenario lacks the intent focus that causes the eye strain. I'm not sure how to duplicate the intense focus that comes with an intent to shoot - without an intent to shoot. I will experiment with that some more.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Something else I've been thinking about...

I tried various lenses with various clarifiers and varifiers this past summer & it made everything immediately worse. But, I didn't try any of that with the double vision blocker. That might be something else to revisit.


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## skinnyjoey (May 21, 2018)

NY_Whitetail said:


> No. I didn't try that this morning. I should have.
> 
> I did try it again last night...and did verify that I hold my breath when I try the "no shoot" scenario (as you call it). However, as I mentioned, last night I was able to hold for 8-9 seconds without a problem with the current setup and a hinge. That might not be "all day" (figuratively)...but, that's a long time and a lot longer than I intend to hold.
> 
> ...


There you go. Looks like you're real close to pinpointing the mental part of smokin x's that's causing the problem.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Something else I've been thinking about...
> 
> I tried various lenses with various clarifiers and varifiers this past summer & it made everything immediately worse. But, I didn't try any of that with the double vision blocker. That might be something else to revisit.


When you were trying the different lenses and clarifiers, did you have an "intent to shoot" or did it immediately make it worse even without worrying about shooting? My thinking is if the added lenses in the peep made it worse no matter if you were shooting or not, it's a good indication that it's the obstruction of the lens in the peep that's straining the eye. It certainly sounds like you're doing a good job at isolating variables and seems to be steering towards an eye problem and not a mind problem.


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## Scottspot50 (Nov 21, 2017)

Two comments that may or may not help.
Take several deep breaths before drawing. The last breath should be as you draw the bow. Slowly exhale while aiming. This ensures adequate oxygen supply at the eye. Back in the day we did this during flight physicals. If you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying hard enough.
Relax into the shot. If you try too hard to hit the bullseye you will add tension to your hand arm etc.
So my suggestion is to shoot for a while at a square ( or circle) of plain paper. I’m talking 6 or 8 inches at 20 yards. Wait for the pin to stabilize then initiate the shot... no matter where the pin stabilizes on the paper. You’re trying to teach your mind that a well executed shot is a well executed shot weather it’s in the center or not. After a while you can start to shoot at previous holes in the target. I wouldn’t rush this or do it continually. Just occasionally could I hit that hole. It’s not “I have to hit that hole” it’s I wonder if I could hit that?” Then back to shooting at wherever the pin is stable. Don’t forget the breathing. 
Basically this is making Sure your vision is good, putting your emphasis on shot execution rather than score, then transitioning to hitting a specific spot. Please don’t fling arrows while doing this. ALWAYS wait for the pin to stabilize. You’re looking for “The pin hasn’t moved for a while now, I might as well shoot.” If the pin starts to move uncontrollably Let Down. 
I’m thinking multiple problems here, one is target panic, the other is a visual issue. I think they feed on each other. One is my sight gets blurry after 3 or 4 seconds then oh **** I need to get a shot off now to hit the target. You are trying to break this cycle. It will probably take a while.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Just an update...

I shot another 60+ arrows last night with the double vision blocker (this time with the 2x lens back in the scope). I am trying to find the light switch / smoking gun that makes the problem appear and reappear consistently. Since the lens caused me trouble before - I thought the lens might be it. I was surprised to find that I was able to shoot and see without any significant blurring, now with the lens back in, until I got to about 70 arrows. Once I started getting tired, my vision started breaking down once every few shots. I stopped somewhere north of 70 arrows. 

I shot the same setup again this morning before work to test my "morning eyes" / eye strain theory. I thought that with the lens back in, vision issues would be especially prevalent. I was surprised to find out that I only lost focus once or twice out of about a dozen arrows. Once my eyes started blurring, I tried the thumb release again (both without intent to shoot and with intent to shoot) and I couldn't get my eyes to blur again. 

So, on one heavy hand, I am very happy that this issue has improved drastically...and that it appears to be continuing to improve. But, on the other hand, I really wish I knew exactly why its improving drastically. Here's what I know I've changed and kept changed...

I am wearing my glasses every day at work, all day. I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not. I just remember the eye doctor saying that my glasses should help reduce eye strain. 

I am using the double vision blocker all the time. The truth is that I don't like my sight picture with it, and I feel like comfort and accuracy suffers because of a restricted feeling sight picture. But, I'll take it over not being able to see at all. 

I am practicing deliberate breathing as part of every shot sequence. Breath in before draw, breath out while drawing, partial breath in while anchoring, initiate firing mechanism. I feel like this one has been a big help.

I have my hinge timed to go off at 4 seconds...and it usually is. Sometimes it surprises me and goes off at 3 seconds. But, I am rarely holding past 5 seconds. 

I have nothing concrete to base it on. But, if I had to guess what really made a difference, I would say that committing to the double vision blocker and letting the new sight picture settle in was a big one. I'd say that the deliberate breathing was another big one. Lastly, I have a feeling that all this extra shooting I'm doing is needed strength training to reduce / delay fatigue...which seemed to bring blurring on (sample size of one).

I'll keep doing what I'm doing now and monitor for any changes. But, I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. As always, I appreciate the tips and advice from all.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> When you were trying the different lenses and clarifiers, did you have an "intent to shoot" or did it immediately make it worse even without worrying about shooting? My thinking is if the added lenses in the peep made it worse no matter if you were shooting or not, it's a good indication that it's the obstruction of the lens in the peep that's straining the eye. It certainly sounds like you're doing a good job at isolating variables and seems to be steering towards an eye problem and not a mind problem.


No intent to shoot. I was using the specialty archery tools with multiple clarifiers / verifiers - looking through them at my scope and lens. To be fair, and complete, my bow wasn't even drawn when I did this.

So, to your point, the clarifiers / verifiers made things worse even without the stress of actually shooting....or even drawing.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Scottspot50 said:


> Two comments that may or may not help.
> Take several deep breaths before drawing. The last breath should be as you draw the bow. Slowly exhale while aiming. This ensures adequate oxygen supply at the eye. Back in the day we did this during flight physicals. If you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying hard enough.
> Relax into the shot. If you try too hard to hit the bullseye you will add tension to your hand arm etc.
> So my suggestion is to shoot for a while at a square ( or circle) of plain paper. I’m talking 6 or 8 inches at 20 yards. Wait for the pin to stabilize then initiate the shot... no matter where the pin stabilizes on the paper. You’re trying to teach your mind that a well executed shot is a well executed shot weather it’s in the center or not. After a while you can start to shoot at previous holes in the target. I wouldn’t rush this or do it continually. Just occasionally could I hit that hole. It’s not “I have to hit that hole” it’s I wonder if I could hit that?” Then back to shooting at wherever the pin is stable. Don’t forget the breathing.
> ...


Thanks Scott,

Some of your suggestions were made by others also, and have already been incorporated. See most recent update.

I like your plain paper exercise & it seems like a halfway point between blank bailing and a full aiming commitment. 

I agree that the original issue was probably multi-faceted. My personal assessment is that vision problems were causing stress & not vice versa. But, I'm not 100% sure on that & it probably really doesn't matter because all facets need to be addressed.


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## zeee (May 19, 2018)

I wonder if control is a factor. Smoking a paper plate at 10 yards requires less control than smoking an x at 60

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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

zeee said:


> I wonder if control is a factor. Smoking a paper plate at 10 yards requires less control than smoking an x at 60
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not sure & not entirely sure what you mean by control. Are you referring to control of my float?

To be honest, I couldn't even tell you what my float looks like. Once I achieve visual alignment with the peep and scope housing, and I align my pin or reticle with the target - I don't look at it anymore. I look past it / through it. I am focusing on the center of the target.

Vegas is 20 yds & I practice (at home) at 12 yds and (at the shop) 20 yds. So, none of the recent experiences are related to anything beyond 20 yds. 

I will tell you, though, that (for outdoor) - I love 40-50 yds. For some reason, aiming at something 40-50 yds away feels easier.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Just an update...
> 
> I shot another 60+ arrows last night with the double vision blocker (this time with the 2x lens back in the scope). I am trying to find the light switch / smoking gun that makes the problem appear and reappear consistently. Since the lens caused me trouble before - I thought the lens might be it. I was surprised to find that I was able to shoot and see without any significant blurring, now with the lens back in, until I got to about 70 arrows. Once I started getting tired, my vision started breaking down once every few shots. I stopped somewhere north of 70 arrows.
> 
> ...


Guess you'll have to keep the glasses off at work one day to see if that makes an actual difference. I'd bet that it does as I still believe this is more to do with your eye than anything. You might eventually be able to get contacts, or a single contact if you only need correction on that one side, and be able to shoot without much issue.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> Guess you'll have to keep the glasses off at work one day to see if that makes an actual difference. I'd bet that it does as I still believe this is more to do with your eye than anything. You might eventually be able to get contacts, or a single contact if you only need correction on that one side, and be able to shoot without much issue.


Thanks, 

Another fellow suggested that contacts that brought me as close to perfect vision as possible might be a good solution. 

While I'm not 100% sure why, what I'm doing seems to be helping. So, I think I'll stick with it for now. 

If something changes, I'll likely go back to the eye doctor & try to better explain what I'm doing & why its important to have good vision and both eyes the same.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Another fellow suggested that contacts that brought me as close to perfect vision as possible might be a good solution.
> 
> ...


My sister is an optometrist and she says all the time that if people don't wear their glasses, their vision can degrade more quickly as it strains the eyes to have to try and correct all day. I'd guess that wearing the glasses is just better for your eyes and they're just less fatigued in general. You've started wearing your glasses consistently and your condition is improving. Seems a likely cause and effect scenario.


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## zeee (May 19, 2018)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Not sure & not entirely sure what you mean by control. Are you referring to control of my float?
> 
> To be honest, I couldn't even tell you what my float looks like. Once I achieve visual alignment with the peep and scope housing, and I align my pin or reticle with the target - I don't look at it anymore. I look past it / through it. I am focusing on the center of the target.
> 
> ...


So that's a good clue. You feel like shorter distances are more likely to agitate the problem? 

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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

zeee said:


> So that's a good clue. You feel like shorter distances are more likely to agitate the problem?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think he means that the longer distance is just easier to aim at. I feel the same way and for me, I've realized a lot of it has to do with the angle at which our bow arms are. It's honestly easier to shoot with your bow arm a little up hill and your torso a little angled back. When I shoot the low target indoor, I feel like I have to bend at the waist slightly and it's just more taxing and difficult to do than when I'm shooting longer range. I also like to aim at a small target, aim small miss small I guess. 

I could have interpreted his response wrong though.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

zeee said:


> So that's a good clue. You feel like shorter distances are more likely to agitate the problem?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Hard to say. I've always felt like 40-50 yds was a sweet spot for me (6-7 years with a bow) - and I only just started experiencing vision issues 6 months go, or so. That being said, the physical potential reason for vision issues is an astigmatism - which has been there long before I noticed any vision issues. 

So, is aiming at distance easier because my eyes like it better, because I put less pressure on myself at 40-50 yds than I do at 20 yds, because I am confident at 50 yds...or because my pin / reticle almost covers the target at 50...so I just let it happen? Don't know. 

I don't think it's an ergonomic thing. But, I could be wrong. 

The other thing I can share is that vision issues started March / April time frame when I was still shooting indoor target. May / June time frame, I transition to my hunting bow - and I fought with vision with that bow too (different DW, different peep, different sight, etc.). But, by the time hunting season came and I was sighted in and well practiced with that bow, I got a short reprieve from vision problems....until I went back to my target bow. 

Why the short reprieve? Was it because I was strong from shooting my hunting bow (heavier draw weight), or is the vision problem more of an indoor lighting problem? Maybe its because I rarely shoot, or practice at 10 or 20 yds with a hunting bow (once I have 20 sighted). I had just gotten my glasses then, and I was wearing my glasses more then...maybe that's part of it. 

I killed deer this year with my hunting bow...one at 13 yds. No vision issues in the field. Why? Adrenaline? I don't know.

Feels like too many moving pieces. But, I feel it's likely that vision issues are more prevalent indoors and at close range.


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## zeee (May 19, 2018)

NY_Whitetail said:


> Hard to say. I've always felt like 40-50 yds was a sweet spot for me (6-7 years with a bow) - and I only just started experiencing vision issues 6 months go, or so. That being said, the physical potential reason for vision issues is an astigmatism - which has been there long before I noticed any vision issues.
> 
> So, is aiming at distance easier because my eyes like it better, because I put less pressure on myself at 40-50 yds than I do at 20 yds, because I am confident at 50 yds...or because my pin / reticle almost covers the target at 50...so I just let it happen? Don't know.
> 
> ...


I think you're getting close to narrowing it down. Maybe in a couple hours of shooting at short distances and longer distances you could pinpoint that thing that's agitating the problem. I would try different things like outdoors at close range to see if comes back.
Does score or group size have anything to do with it? Also When a bull is close its easier to really dive in and focus on it. Is that it? Hopefully when the problem comes up again you can immediately change things up. Maybe Go outside and get in your sweet spot to see if there's a change. Also you could try this. Instead of putting one pin on the bullseye put the bull halfway between 2 pins. Or maybe put 2 pins really close to each other and put both pins on the bull. See if that makes any difference.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

zeee said:


> I think you're getting close to narrowing it down. Maybe in a couple hours of shooting at short distances and longer distances you could pinpoint that thing that's agitating the problem. I would try different things like outdoors at close range to see if comes back.
> Does score or group size have anything to do with it? Also When a bull is close its easier to really dive in and focus on it. Is that it? Hopefully when the problem comes up again you can immediately change things up. Maybe Go outside and get in your sweet spot to see if there's a change. Also you could try this. Instead of putting one pin on the bullseye put the bull halfway between 2 pins. Or maybe put 2 pins really close to each other and put both pins on the bull. See if that makes any difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Zeee, 

Those are some good things to try. 

I did experiment with the double vision blocker on / off the scope last night and this morning. It is definitely more difficult to maintain focus with it off. Without the double vision blocker, I lose focus / vision noticeably more often than with it. In my viewpoint, this adds strength to the argument that the root of the issue is an actual eye issue - and that, furthermore, it's a conflict between my left and right eye during the aiming process. Putting pieces together, I think my right eye (dominant eye) is getting weak and my left eye (non-dominant) eye is trying to compensate. 

Score or group size has nothing to do with it. I don't keep score when I practice at home. It's all about execution at home...no idea what my score is right now. And...I don't shoot groups for spots. 

Outdoors, I wont shoot groups 40yds or inside. If I do, I will ruin arrows (as long as I can maintain focus without vision breaking down). 50 yd groups are usually inside of 5"...usually around 4", sometimes as good as 3". 

It is definitely more difficult for me to maintain focus while diving into an x at 10 yards, than 20, 30 40...yds.


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## Tblodg (Aug 28, 2019)

I don’t think I can add much to help but a couple comments:

I am 52 and just returning to archery this summer after many years away I found I need to use the double vision blocker whenever I use a lens. I have went back and forth many times both indoors and out and need the blocker with the lens. The difference between us, however, is that without a lens I shoot just fine without the blocker both indoors and out. My pin is a little blurry but I focus on the target and it is fine and no double vision. I have tried a verifier several times and it makes the pin crystal clear but I shoot much worse. Again, back and forth several times with and without the verifier and shoot way better without it even though the pin is a little fuzzy.

As a side note I also need a clarifier with the 4X lens but I have Spot Hogg hunting sight with large 2 1/4” housing and therefore have a fairly large peep. A smaller peep might not require the clarifier but then I can’t frame my peep and housing. 

I also shoot more relaxed and therefore better at 40 or 50 yards. Now I do keep score but indoors at 20Y I struggle way more with staying relaxed and my reasoning is that you basically can’t miss at 20Y to shoot a good score. Outdoors I don’t feel the pressure and my groups at 40Y are not a lot bigger than they would be at 20Y if I shot at the same spot.

Good luck!


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

Tblodg said:


> I don’t think I can add much to help but a couple comments:
> 
> I am 52 and just returning to archery this summer after many years away I found I need to use the double vision blocker whenever I use a lens. I have went back and forth many times both indoors and out and need the blocker with the lens. The difference between us, however, is that without a lens I shoot just fine without the blocker both indoors and out. My pin is a little blurry but I focus on the target and it is fine and no double vision. I have tried a verifier several times and it makes the pin crystal clear but I shoot much worse. Again, back and forth several times with and without the verifier and shoot way better without it even though the pin is a little fuzzy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback Tblodg.

To be clear. I do keep score shooting spots at leagues and tournaments...just not at home. At home it's all about practicing / engraining execution. 

When shooting under pressure, I find it helps not to think about the game, the score, how many points I dropped, how many I need, etc. I try to treat every arrow as if it's the only one in the game. When I am shooting an arrow for a score, I don't want to care about the ones before it or the ones after it. I have no idea what my score is until the game is over. It has helped me.


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## skinnyjoey (May 21, 2018)

What distance is your "sweet spot" when just looking at things?

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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

One thing that came to mind, and was emphasised with a couple of comments, was oxygen supply to the retina and/or weakness of the ciliary muscles of the lens. Not so much that it shows itself in everyday activities/conditions, but just enough when under the added stressors of focusing through the peep and holding the mass and DW of the bow[one reason why you may not see it while shooting a rifle]. If breathing exercises and techniques to reduce eye fatigue continue to help, it might be worth talking to an ophthalmologist with your findings. 

Another suggestion might be, in the interim, is to talk to a low vision clinic [not just an optometrist but a specific low vision therapist] about absorbtive filters [sunglasses designed to filter specific wavelengths of light], just another something to help reduce eye fatigue during the day.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

skinnyjoey said:


> What distance is your "sweet spot" when just looking at things?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I dont know...maybe 20 yds. That seems to be where details are most clear.


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## NY_Whitetail (Dec 16, 2014)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> One thing that came to mind, and was emphasised with a couple of comments, was oxygen supply to the retina and/or weakness of the ciliary muscles of the lens. Not so much that it shows itself in everyday activities/conditions, but just enough when under the added stressors of focusing through the peep and holding the mass and DW of the bow[one reason why you may not see it while shooting a rifle]. If breathing exercises and techniques to reduce eye fatigue continue to help, it might be worth talking to an ophthalmologist with your findings.
> 
> Another suggestion might be, in the interim, is to talk to a low vision clinic [not just an optometrist but a specific low vision therapist] about absorbtive filters [sunglasses designed to filter specific wavelengths of light], just another something to help reduce eye fatigue during the day.


Deliberate breathing is helping. I agree oxygen levels may be / probably are a factor. 

My reading / computer glasses have some kind of blue light blocker & they do seem to help to reduce eye strain / fatigue. 

If I can't get this completely licked with reading / computer glasses, deliberate breathing, and a double vision blocker - I'll be going back to the eye doctor.

Things are moving in the right direction for now.


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