# After 5 years, he asked



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My best buddy dshort has shot with me for 5 years and we joke around and go to 40 3d tournaments per year and up until 2 months ago I had never worked with him, we simply laughed and shot and ate steak dinners on the way home after a shoot. Well this fall after 3d season was over he painted his bow and when it was done he called me and asked If I would come over and work with him on his shooting. I got over there and we spend a good 3 hours going over his shooting form and then execution and then how to aim. At that time he had never shot a 300 5-spot score and usually had somewhere around 40x. Two weeks later he called me and he had shot about 5 300 5-spot rounds that week and that next week he shot a 300 57x at home.

Well tonight on the line with other shooters at a bow shop in springfield mo he shot his first 300 vegas round, I couldn't be happier for him. I love to be the one who puts up a big score or win a tournament but when one of my friends has a special day and is on top it is just as good or better. For Donnie to be learning how to do things and start putting up respectable scores that any good shooter would be proud of is freaking sweet.

Tonight when he called me to tell me about the 300 vegas round he also said that for the first time he was SPECTATOR SHOOTING, he has known about it since I wrote it a few years ago but I think deep down inside he just couldn't accept it as something real. But now that he has made the commitment to change his form and execution and mental approaches things like spectator shooting are now becoming a reality and not just something in my archery articles. 

For those of you that have settled for some reason and have been at some level for a year or a decade or a lifetime you can totally push the reset button and simply move on to something else.


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## grousegrove (Aug 8, 2013)

Whew for a second there seeing your title I thought this was a marriage proposal! ;-). 

Seriously though, nice post. Friends helping each other out, that's even more significant than his score. Good job both of you. It must feel pretty edifying. 
Your advice on here has helped me think through some things, too, and I'm sure that's true of many others. That's the way the forum should be. 


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## grousegrove (Aug 8, 2013)

Oh and by the way... I thought about your comment the other day about confidence and commitment to hinge shooting and so yesterday I said what the heck and left my wrist strap in my pack when I went hunting. Drilled a doe at 40 yards shooting the hinge. 
And before anyone criticizes, I know, a bit of a poke for a whitetail, but she was relaxed and I pulled it off so all's well that ends well. 


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah I was fixin' to say... sounded like a friend went to the next level rather than a shooter went to the next level.... based on the title.... Got a good chuckle out of that. 

DM


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Hey all,.....well,I would almost rather take an ass whooping than say this,but Padgett has me on a promising path and have been told by some top shooters that have known and tolerated my antics for years that I don't even look like the same shooter.
Kudos to Padge for his humility in waiting till I was mentally ready to absorb his guidance.
Now back to reality,he is still jack hole.LMAO


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## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

it is great to have a freind that helpmake change with these results. I wish i had a friend with padgett's know how.
to heck with it padgett can you be my freind? lol


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah, be careful what you wish for, there, pops.... But yes some independent eyes and experience on your shooting can really speed up fixes. I was unknowingly shooting with a USAA Level 3 coach this summer when I was out with my recurve. He spotted right away the things I was doing right (my alignment and form he complimented, which I was grateful for since I'd had to fix it on my own a few months prior. It was good to know I'd done it more or less right) and one or two things I was definitely not doing quite right. I never would have recognized the errors had he not pointed them out. Or if I had it could have taken many months to correct on my own. In this case, it was how I was drawing the bow - he showed me the KSL method of treating the shoulder as a unit that you bring round, rather than drawing with the smaller muscles in the arm as I was doing. 

I've even incorporated that into my compound draw and my shoulder is already thanking me.... 

DM


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

pops said:


> it is great to have a freind that helpmake change with these results. I wish i had a friend with padgett's know how.
> to heck with it padgett can you be my freind? lol


Padgett doesn't have friends,just those few that will tolerate him.lol


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## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

ok i can do that im good at tolerating. it shooting where i need improvment


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## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

can you explain this ksl method a little better sounds like something i may want to try. my shoulders need a break as well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Donnie and I have way to much fun and it is only getting better, now we have 4 solid shooters in the group and it is getting even harder to walk away with a win.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

pops said:


> can you explain this ksl method a little better sounds like something i may want to try. my shoulders need a break as well.


This would be the method developed by the great recurve coach Kisik Lee, I've put a link to the description below. It's a recurve oriented method tho, so Caveat Emptor: some of it doesn't really apply as-is to compound (expansion for example may be inapplicable if you shoot a hinge and don't use the back-tension method, etc.). The technique of drawing with the back muscles, though, I have found can be adapted to the compound draw which helped me quite a bit to stop trying to draw the bow with little muscles in the shoulder. 
Look at section 6 for the skinny on the draw:

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/KSLShotCycle/KSLShotCycle-USA.html

DM


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## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

thanks I will check it out later today


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have watched Donnie shoot for years and he does make good shots most of the time and he has a good day from time to time but there was always something that held him back. I would notice it on the course where for no reason his arrow would be 5 inches to the right of a relatively easy target, in our group with 2 or three really strong shooters that 5 inch to the right arrow would take him out of contention and by the end of the day he would usually have 3 or 4 of them that kept him from scoring with us. 

It all had to do with allowing himself the option of punching the thumb trigger, I watched him do it all the time. He had a hair trigger on his thumb trigger and he basically came to anchor and stood there and waited for it to fire and most of the time it did fire but when it didn't he helped it fire by punching. In all reality on a 40 shot course I would estimate at least 15 shots would result in a punch and of course some of them did just fine but some of them didn't. The shots that did end up in the 12 ring are what allowed his brain to justify getting rid of the arrow by punching as a OK thing.

When I went to his house of course I worked on his form but the two big things that I wanted to tackle were forcing him to actually use a well defined firing engine and secondly letting down when it didn't fire within his shooting window. He was reluctant to concede and accept that we were going to define a specific firing engine but I allowed him to choose what method and then I simply defined how the engine would start and run and create the movement needed to fire the thumb trigger. 

I really think that for him accepting that there needed to be some form of movement in the release for it to fire was a tough thing because he had just been standing there with a hair trigger for so many years. I was strong to the fact that we were going to get a engine defined and that over the next couple weeks it would become a good thing. 

I also talked to him about setting up his thumb trigger and not being scared of it and setting it up to a trigger setting that complimented his shooting instead of dictating his shooting. This one took a few days of badgering him on the phone to get him to do it but I think about 4 days after working with him personally he did spend a day setting up his release and I got a phone call that night and he was a happy camper to say the least. Thank god that he had a couple good days of promising shooting that allowed him to feel progress and mentally allow himself to make the release changes to his thumb trigger. 

For those of you that are listening to this and you can see yourself in Donnie I suggest that you take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are ready to stop justifying the things that are holding you back, they have done nothing but hold you back from enjoying some sweet shooting.

My job now as a friend and a coach is to remind him that there will be some bad days but that if he stays on course there is even better shooting to experience, nothing more or less.


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## SILVERWOLF_73 (Apr 8, 2007)

what a wonderful post thanks for sharing


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

pops said:


> thanks I will check it out later today


One quick PS: I have heard that some compound coaches have started to incorporate some elements of the KSL/BEST technique into compound. I'm unfamiliar with the adaptations, and I'd be highly curious about what has been come up with. I shoot both compound and recurve personally and though some elements are similar, it's a completely different shot between the two for me. And that's even though I use a back-tension method in my compound shot. It still feels totally different.

DM


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

PPS: apologies for pulling this off topic. I'm going to search on KSL/BEST on compound in the coaches forum and post a question there if I don't find anything so I don't derail this thread. Apologies to Padgett and the others.

DM


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## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

padgett that is funny as i was reading your post i keep thinking that is me all over. then you put in that last sentence yes i need to look in that mirror and I already know the answer. thank you so much for your post (all of them) i have leaarned a lot just reading them.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I keep looking in the mirror from time to time and wonder if I am as good as I am ever going to be, I don't desire to be a strong shooter any more today than I did 5 years ago but the difference is that I have chosen to learn the lessons and then apply them to my shooting. All I am doing right now is giving my best friend those lessons I already learned. I think the hardest thing for me was coaching hundreds of people here on archery talk that I don't even know and having to wait for my best friend to ask when I spend virtually every weekend with him shooting.


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

He is fortunate, I wish I had someone with padgett's skill set in my area


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Athompt, we are out there. When I go to tha asa national 3d shoots I run into tons of great amateur shooters who come from all around the nation, they shoot hinges and thumb triggers and have good form and knowledge from years of competition. We aren't levi morgan but for the most part none of the pro shooters aren't either. 

What I have found is that you just have to look and open up your eyes, I started in 2007 shooting 3d in my area and it took me until 2011 to realize that I had a couple awesome shooters in my area. One of them was winning the open 50 class shooter of the year and multiple asa tounaments and the other one was a semi pro 3d guy, the pathetic thing is that both of them were on courses in my area that I shot on a regular basis and I simply had no idea. I was winning around 10 or so local tournaments a summer and I thought I was beating them but I finally figured out that the only time I could win was when they went to the national tournaments and weren't in town that weekend so I got to win. 

I got lucky and the semi pro shooter had two buddies that quit shooting tournaments in late 2011 and I jumped on it and invited him into my 3d group, we simply exchanged phone numbers and I made sure to make him feel welcome in my group and that was the beginning of me getting better. I simply had no idea that a person could be that good until I had a solid semi pro shooter in my group, everything about his 3d game from the shooting to the yardage to the course management to bow setup and equipment was way better than any of us. 

The key is that I accepted that he was stinking way better than me and that I wanted what he had, it took me a good two years following him around courses and getting my butt kicked and his lessons finally kicked in and I closed the gap a bunch and actually started beating him from time to time. He is still my superior but his lessons have allowed me to win into the semi pro class with him. 

When I am on the semi pro range every one of those guys is in the same boat, of course some are better than others but the same kinds of knowledge allowed each of us to earn the right to be there and getting one of these guys in your group or at least spending some time with them is the key.

The other guy I mentioned is Sam, he is a pro indoor shooter and known 50 guy. With him I have traveled a few time to national tournaments and got to spend time in the truck and motel room talking about shooting. I also try and attend a local indoor league and shoot with him some. Those times just standing next to him on the shooting line and watching a real pro shooter is worth its weight in gold because those guys are just freaking good. 

Like I said, they are out there and one of the best and easiest ways to find them is local indoor leagues. these top shooters know the importance of using indoor as a training night and they show up, the key is with indoor that you get them trapped in a room for a few hours a week and that is where you can make friends and start building your game.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

So basically you stalk them...lol


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yep, I totally did.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Almost all of our discussions are game play, yardage judging, low back 12's and all the other things associated with being a asa 3d guy. Very little of our discussions are shooting related, I know that in the beginning when I first was around them they gave me a hard time about my equipment and the need for me to upgrade my stabs and rest and sights. Then both of them hounded me to become a hinge shooter for months and I finally got one, they didn't give me any instruction but they did open the door and shoved me right on through it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Yesterday we showed up to a local tournament, in my group I am a Semi pro asa guy and we had Jason who just won Lancasters and is on fire and Donnie. The course was a easy one, it had about 12 targets in the 30 to 37 yard range and the rest of them were from 17 to 28 yards so it was going to be a 12 ring buffet. I had a awesome day and shot really strong and was 50 up but as the day progressed I got to watch something happen that to be honest I really never actually thought I would see happen. Donnie simply kicked my rear end. He shot 56 up for the day and executed 40 good shots. To say it was awesome to see him sit in the drivers seat is a understatement, for the last 5 years I have watched him find tons of ways to screw up a perfectly good scoring round and end up shooting down. 

I think shooting with him all these years is going to help me as a coach and a friend many times over because it is showing me that doubt in yourself and excuses that you accept as reality can hold you back from being a strong shooter. 

Just two seasons ago when Jason and I started getting on the podium at asa national shoots I can still remember Donnie saying to me that I am just going to enjoy shooting and watching you guys. Not only did it suck to hear my best friend say that I just didn't believe it, I knew that it could change if he allowed it. 

Right now he has solid shooting form and is running a firing engine and he isn't sending arrows to the target that he already knows are going to suck, he lets down and resets and then draws back and sends a quality arrow on its way. Of course there is more to it than just that but what is really cool is that I now have two buddies in my group that I am competing with.


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## Outdoorlife89 (Feb 24, 2014)

Cool thread right here and glad your buddy finally allowed you to coach him. That is what its all about


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Here lately I have been using something new when I work with threads mainly in the general forum, I talk about "BEING BLIND". For Donnie he was shooting in a group with two semi pro asa guys and a guy that just won Lancasters and he was still blind to the simple fundamental shooting form and execution things that we take for granted. All I did was point out each and every one of them.

Now here is the part that is iffy, because he could have shut me down right from the start because some of the things I told him were hard for him to hear and he didn't want to do them. I was strong and saw the situation as a one time opportunity and he was either going to do exactly what I said or go down in flames. Why, because I wasn't going to take no for a answer. Thank god he was truly committed to listening to me and even though some of the things I asked him to do really sucked he did them anyway. 

That is where so many people go wrong, they know what the person needs to hear but they see them losing something such as a coaching fee or business in their bow shop so they only tell them what they want to hear. Right now Donnie has already won 3 of the 5 3d shoots he has attended and this weekend when we shot a tough course he was the only one that didn't leave the course bleeding in our group. He shot a tough footing and judging course 6 up and easily won his class. Why? Because he stepped up and executed smooth shots all day long and didn't have 6 "I wish I had that shot back" to talk about on the way home.


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