# Hoyt scrapping 27" FAKTOR?



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Had a 27" FAKTOR on order with LAS-told Hoyt is scrapping the 27" FAKTOR
LAS no longer has them listed nor does the Hoyt Website

very interesting


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Hmmmmmmm.... I'm still waiting on my orange 25".


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

Sad but true. I talked to a couple of people in customer service today, and they unfortunately are being given the mushroom treatment like everyone else including their own reps. The most information I could get out of them was that they "would not be able to produce a 27" version." Apparently this decision is driven by the bean-counters. Not an issue with actual engineering or physics, just a complete unwillingness to spend any production cycles on it. I am wondering if that decision had anything to do with Kaminski starting to look elsewhere if they did not provide him a 27" riser for him to fit medium medium limbs to as was his preference up til his extensive testing... though that's pure speculation on my part.

I am a relatively new archer, only been doing it for about a year or so, but I have a 32 1/4 inch drawl length which means I am now stacking so much on a 25 inch riser with the long limbs that I've already managed to twist one of my original limbs just from use and the lowest pound Long limbs on offer from W&W are still going to put me at well over 50 pound draw weight on a 25" riser... at a point where I'm really trying to reduce my weight to refine my technique. My coach was saying that I definitely needed to go to a 27" riser in my local shop had put in an order at the ATA, only to find out two days later that Hoyt is completely backing out of it. 

Does this mean they have depleted all of the Katnis and Hawkeye wannabes and are now belt-tightening? They complain about lack of sales, but the only two right-handed 27" risers I see available are the pink and white prodigies left at Lancaster, Hoyt is all out of them themselves... so if they're all sold out, did it really sell that badly? 

I'm used to paying extra for big and tall sizes, and I would gladly have paid the premium for an extra couple of inches on the upcoming riser... I even left a voicemail with Mr. Denton proposing that they just give me single use license to use their engineering files so that I can have one of my clients carve one out on their own CNC machine... Now, I guess it's fortunate that I learned this before I got heavily invested in formula limbs, but I can only imagine how annoyed and the other tallish people might be out there who already have.

So from what I can tell, this means the only 27" risers that are available are standard ILF, and only two companies producing them, and one of those From a nation not noted for producing a lot of people with overly long draw lengths... not sure where to go from here. I guess perhaps a 27" W&W riser paired with lighter weight Hoyt ILF limbs... but I hate to reward Hoyt with any of my business at all after these shenanigans.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

Gillo 27 beautiful finish! Ilf is a plus.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

KKW said:


> Sad but true. I talked to a couple of people in customer service today, and they unfortunately are being given the mushroom treatment like everyone else including their own reps. The most information I could get out of them was that they "would not be able to produce a 27" version." Apparently this decision is driven by the bean-counters. Not an issue with actual engineering or physics, just a complete unwillingness to spend any production cycles on it. I am wondering if that decision had anything to do with Kaminski starting to look elsewhere if they did not provide him a 27" riser for him to fit medium medium limbs to as was his preference up til his extensive testing... though that's pure speculation on my part.
> 
> I am a relatively new archer, only been doing it for about a year or so, but I have a 32 1/4 inch drawl length which means I am now stacking so much on a 25 inch riser with the long limbs that I've already managed to twist one of my original limbs just from use and *the lowest pound Long limbs on offer from W&W are still going to put me at well over 50 pound draw weight on a 25" riser...* at a point where I'm really trying to reduce my weight to refine my technique. My coach was saying that I definitely needed to go to a 27" riser in my local shop had put in an order at the ATA, only to find out two days later that Hoyt is completely backing out of it.
> 
> ...


WIAWIS NS and WIAWIS One and Winex are all offered in 28# long. You are definitely not stuck with 50#, it is only about 2# per inch, and you have limb bolt adjustment. On a 25" riser at 32" draw my 36# WIAWIS pull right about 44#. I would be shocked if you can't shoot a 25" with longs, though you may feel more comfortable in a 27". I have both, and don't feel I am compromising my limbs at all on the 25". I prefer the string angle on my fingers (marginally) on the 27", and other than that...???


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I have been deriding hoyt for years for not having a 27" ILF model. I can not believe that the Formula line is dropping the 27". I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to find out there were engineering issues in their "latest and greatest" that didn't allow a simple translation from 25" to 27". They discovered this in their "beta test" sales, they will rejig and re-offer a 27" when and if they can figure it out.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

bobnikon said:


> I have been deriding hoyt for years for not having a 27" ILF model. I can not believe that the Formula line is dropping the 27". I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to find out there were engineering issues in their "latest and greatest" that didn't allow a simple translation from 25" to 27". They discovered this in their "beta test" sales, they will rejig and re-offer a 27" when and if they can figure it out.


Wrong. It's purely a matter of production flow. It doesn't make sense to give up capacity for thousands of bows to deliver a few hundred.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

>--gt--> said:


> Wrong. It's purely a matter of production flow. It doesn't make sense to give up capacity for thousands of bows to deliver a few hundred.


True. Whether it is a good decision though remains to be seen. There are many manufacturers that make products just to have a complete collection. If you cannot cover as a manufacturer most bases you risk introducing your clients to your competitors that do.


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm just going by what the bow-scale shows me - my starter glass/wood limbs 26#/70" stack to 46# at my draw to the click. My 32#/70" carbon/glass/wood limbs stack to 55#. I figure that would put me with 28# limbs somewhere right around 50#. I think the 2-3#/inch rule might be generally true for the first inch or so past 28, but recurve draw weight isn't linear. I'll ask the folks at my club to help play around with the scale and one of their measuring rods - who knows, maybe their scale is off... my limb bolts might be able to come out a turn but not much more and be safe... I'll keep fidgeting since I am going to have to adapt some how to what is available... I thought the Gillo was only a barebow riser, but I see it works for olympic recurve as well, so I'll give it a closer look.

Bobnikon: Just to clarify, are you speculating on the engineering issues with their "beta" bows or do you perhaps have some insider information? From what I have seen, Hoyt is saying nothing other than "We aren't making one... ever" and when pressed the most I can get out of them is it's a problem with poor sales. W&W is only doing 27" in carbons, and not (so far) for the TFT which sounds like it's H-beam is providing a little better "feedback" than their other all carbon offerings. If it is truly an engineering issue, it would be better for Hoyt to just fess up and say, "you know what, based on field testing we aren't happy with this quite yet, stay tuned," and maybe even produce a limited run of 27" Prodigy's from time to time. Yeah, I get that they probably want to devote 100% of current production capacity to filling existing orders for the 25" line, and I can accept being told, "be patient, we'll get there." But what I am hearing instead is, "Go f*** yourself, gorilla arms!"


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## yugami (Dec 10, 2013)

KKW said:


> I'm just going by what the bow-scale shows me - my starter glass/wood limbs 26#/70" stack to 46# at my draw to the click. My 32#/70" carbon/glass/wood limbs stack to 55#. I figure that would put me with 28# limbs somewhere right around 50#. I think the 2-3#/inch rule might be generally true for the first inch or so past 28, but recurve draw weight isn't linear. I'll ask the folks at my club to help play around with the scale and one of their measuring rods - who knows, maybe their scale is off... my limb bolts might be able to come out a turn but not much more and be safe... I'll keep fidgeting since I am going to have to adapt some how to what is available... I thought the Gillo was only a barebow riser, but I see it works for olympic recurve as well, so I'll give it a closer look.


Something is very odd on your setup. I have a 32 1/4" draw and shot 25" riser with 32# SF Fiber Foam limbs that came in at 40 at the clicker bolts almost all the way down. Switched to 27" RX + 40# Quatro's and they come in at exactly 48#'s at half tiller bolt.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

And..... Hoyt is only making one hunting recurve now and it is ILF. WOW!


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Yea, something sounds off with your setup KKW. Sjef Van den Berg has a draw around 31.5" and uses IIRC 46# (maybe 44# or so actually) limbs to reach 53# OTF. Sure you're pulling even further than he is, but either your limbs are stacking really really badly or something is off with your measuring tools.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> Wrong. It's purely a matter of production flow. It doesn't make sense to give up capacity for thousands of bows to deliver a few hundred.


Good point. Tell me, how does that sight window work out for everybody at 20 yards? I can't see my sight aperture on a 25" formula bow. I realize I am probably in the minority, and hoyt doesn't need my business. Which is fine because I gave up on formula and hoyt a while back. 

As always you are truly an ambassador GT :shade:


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

bobnikon said:


> Good point. Tell me, how does that sight window work out for everybody at 20 yards? I can't see my sight aperture on a 25" formula bow. I realize I am probably in the minority, and hoyt doesn't need my business. Which is fine because I gave up on formula and hoyt a while back.
> 
> As always you are truly an ambassador GT :shade:


Hey, you're absolutely right. I certainly should have left your baseless and speculative statement run unchallenged.

My bad, carry on.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> Hey, you're absolutely right. I certainly should have left your baseless and speculative statement run unchallenged.
> 
> My bad, carry on.


No worries, based on your usual demeanour it is hard to discern the wheat from the chaff. 

You could be a great source of info if it wasn't for your curt answers generally lacking in any useful detail. But maybe that is just me that finds your display on here, for someone who should be an ambassador of archery, rather disappointing.

Anyhow, any idea if there is another individual or two out there who have any problem with the sight window and losing their aperture at short (20 and under) distances? I suppose that could also just be me.

Cheers


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> Hey, you're absolutely right. I certainly should have left your baseless and speculative statement run unchallenged.
> 
> My bad, carry on.


And as always, when questioned you resort to an attack rather than actually answering the question.

Anyhow, to the OP I am sorry for derailing your thread and asking for reasonable answers from an industry insider. I will leave it to the professionals.

Cheers


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Is this the General Archery forum?


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

GT - from your profile you are a Hoyt staff shooter, yes? So your information lines up with it just being about production capacity and not at all about engineering challenges?

Is there perhaps a trend in coaching or training that puts 27" risers out of favor as redundant/unnecessary even for longer draws? I'm a total noob here, so if Kisik Lee went to Hoyt and said, "don't bother, they really aren't necessary," his opinion, or that of other coaches and long draw shooters is sure worth more than mine. What do some of you other coaches think?

How about those of you who already have and love your 27" formula setups - would you upgrade to the 25" riser's features and sacrifice length? If not, would you have if there were a 27" option?

To all others, I appreciate your insights and I will see what some rough calibration tests yield - but even if my numbers are wrong because the measurement tools or technique off, I am still in the market to upgrade my platform to work with higher quality components and lower draw weights than where I am at now. My coach's opinion is that for me to progress it would be useful to have a setup I could be a little more relaxed with. It was looking to me up until the past couple of days like Hoyt had the best Formula for that... guess they'd rather just I go Win.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

I have been the first one to design and introduce a 27" ILF riser in the market back in 2007 with the Bernardini Luxor 27. Other manufacturers have followed after then, and there are at present 3 still active in 27 ILF: Gillo, Fivics and W&W, with very different solutions. 
27" from W&W and Fivics are simmetrycal risers, just equivalent to the 25" with 1" added to top and 1" added to bottom. Gillo G1 27 instead follows same asymmetrical geometry of the Luxor 27, with 0.5" added to the top and 1.5" added to the bottom from 25" equivalent riser. But both solutions have height of the window taller than any 25". As far as Formula risers are concerned situation is totally different, as 27" Formual have window height almost same as 25" ILF risers, and 25" Formula have windows height almost same as 23" ILF risers. It is well known that people with an average to long distance from jaw to eye can not shoot 23" ILF risers as they can't see the sight at short distance, and therefore same people can not shoot a 25" Formula for the same reason. A practical example of this problem is a friend of mine that has shot with an ILF 25"riser today in Nimes, as he can not shoot his Formula 25" indoor because of the shorter window.
As this situation is quite common around, it looks to me quite strange that Hoyt is dropping 27" Formula risers. 
While 27" ILF risers presently account for around 10% of sales for those making them, based on window problem 27" Formula risers should account to much more, up to 30 to 40% of sales. If they don't, it only means that owners of 25" Formula risers like my friend forced to use an ILF riser to shoot indoor or field are a lot.
Very strange situation....


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

Vittorio - I hadn't even considered the sight window issues with the longer limb pockets.... I primarily shoot indoors for now. Thanks for pointing out the Fivics Platina.

GT - if i infer corectly that you are the same G.T. who uses the 27" HPX with shorts, how do you personally feel about the lack of a new (or any) 27" riser option from Hoyt?

Sorry to anyone who thinks I am posting too much, but I understand that once I reach 20 I can throw my [Want To Buy] out there for someone's unloved 27" Formula.


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

OK - here is the straight dope from Doug Denton himself: Yes, it is purely a "business decision" to not offer the 27" Faktor based on overall sales and cost of tooling up for both RH and LH versions. My source is an e-mail that Mr. Denton sent to someone in the dealer rep chain of command which was forwarded to the rep which was forwarded to my dealer which I read personally.

Here is a real kicker, though - according to the e-mail, this decision had been made by Hoyt on the Friday BEFORE the ATA show... yet they didn't notify anyone, not their dealer reps, not even their largest NA distributor nor their own CS department until a day or so AFTER the ATA show. Perhaps they were holding off to see if there was going to be a high number of pre orders for 27" risers which would reverse their decision, but I'm sure that doesn't make bow shops, distributors, and their own reps any happier to have sales "in hand" and then just lose them.

I don't really think i buy the economic argument though - as there are damn few of any new 27" Hoyt risers left to be found where i have looked. Hoyt have none in stock themselves, certainly. I will probably have to order one from over seas IF i still decide that the Formula limb system is even worth-while now. Maybe they are just attempting to strategically keep demand pent up to see about doing a limited run and charging a premium for it, but telling the world you won't offer one at all, ever seems counter productive to that. Hell, I don't know why they couldn't just outsource the manufacturing, if it is truly an issue with not wanting to tie up their own in-house production. Or just simply say that the 27" will be released 3-6 months later - by that time they would have amassed pre-orders to know what their production run should be. People buying Formula limbs is going to depend on the availability of Forumla risers - and while I realize that limbs don't wear out like razor blades do, people change up their limbs for a variety of purposes... Selling risers at cost to keep people buying your nearly proprietary limbs makes long-term business sense! At this point, if I want to use formula limbs on a 25" riser - I'll probably just go with MK Archery's riser and be able to use Formula or ILF.


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## BrandonMReeves (Dec 27, 2016)

New archery dad here. Something Vittorio said regarding the industry sales and expectation percentages, where 27" risers are only hitting 10% of sales, when he felt they should be 30%-40%. I wonder if this is noted within the industry, and if so, have they identified the problem which is likely to be better training of retail and coaching staff on product fit. Granted, I have only been in this a little under two years with my two kids, 10 and 13. My son, 13, has grown nearly 8"-10" since they've taken up with a local JOAD club. He currently shoots a 25" GP Horizon riser, which was chosen for budget and expected growth spurts. at 5'9" currently (I'm 6'), he will likely top out somewhere around 6' to 6'2", with a fairly long reach. I do not know his current draw length, which reminds me we need to check, but I can see that a longer riser could be in his near-future. Directed at Hoyt and other manufacturers, it's not enough to build it, you have show the need and train to that. Many, like me, have a long road to learn about the many details of this sport, and I have received varying levels of expertise when looking at new equipment for my kids. Eventually, this year, I will start shooting as well, and one thing I can say for certain is that there is a distinct lack of clarity in many areas, including equipment needs. This isn't making it better in my mind. I have taken to speaking with other parents at competitions, other coaches, and visiting various archery shops when I'm traveling for business. A lot of what I receive as professional equipment recommendations stems from the "It's what we have in stock" syndrome, and not necessarily a true evaluation and recommendation on personal needs. Hoyt, if you pulled one of your top of the line 27" risers due to a lack of a market, maybe you just haven't effectively made the case for the need. And as was noted in another post, in order to retain customers for the future, wouldn't you be better off with a lower margin on some components to lock in customers on proprietary hardware? Market-share is a big deal, and when you start losing it, it is difficult to turn that momentum of loss around, and it can sometimes take years to overcome. My two cents from someone still learning. FYI, I have worked in the automotive industry for well over 30 years, and do understand about market demand, manufacturing cycles, and the fact that you sometimes have to suck up the cost in order to have products in place in segments that may not be highly desirable in the near-term, so that you have a breadth of product offerings and a presence across the board to help maintain overall brand loyalty. Loyal customers are more often your best sales people, until they are no longer your customers. Don't give them a reason to shop other products once you have them.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

BrandonMReeves said:


> ........ Something Vittorio said regarding the industry sales and expectation percentages, where 27" risers are only hitting 10% of sales, when he felt they should be 30%-40%. ........


Better to point out again:

10% 27" is related to ILF market, were they are sold mainly to long draw archers. and of course percantage is related to high level risers ony. 
30/40% 27" expectation should be related to Formula market, were the need of 27" comes not from the long draw of the archers , but from the tall face, that is surely more common than long arms.

Clearly when the Formula idea become real product, designer perfectly knew that the 27" Formula riser was the replacement of the 25" ILF for 20/30% of the archers, while the 25" Formula was for the remaining 60/70%, but information was not transferred properly to the market, IMHO, so delears started and after continued proposing 25" Formula risers only, to all archers regardeless they could use it at short distancies or not. 
Something went wrong in the sales strategy at the beginning, if sales are so small to bring to a cancellation of the product, but the main item to promote when the "Formula" started its race, was the 27 riser, not the 25, IMHO. Now, may be they have judged to be to late to do it.


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

*Gobsmacked!*

Just got a call from someone at Hoyt who spoke with me for about 20 minutes first apologizing that I hadn't gotten a response sooner (being as they were a little busy in Nimes) and also apologizing that the 27" riser had been canceled. 

I received a good explanation as to their demand (and lack thereof) nationally and apparently more importantly internationally, and also some guidance that in spite of the out-of-date information on their pro staff pages, most of their own pro staff and other top competitive archers, even those exceeding 31" draws, have been shooting 25s for the past several years. Moreover, while at one time the national training center was evangelizing 27" risers, apparently that is also no longer the case. So if top shooters, top coaches and the international market isn't driving demand, that leaves you and me, bobnikon, driving domestic demand (on this forum, anyway), and you would rather have the ILF version which isn't even a cad drawing yet. So, it sounds like they aren't likely to be induced to produce the 27" Faktor - but not ruling out a 27" in a future (2019?) production cycle... again depending on demand. Also I was assured that Hoyt WILL ALWAYS be producing recurve bows to bring the olympic stage regardless of the sales and costs relative to their compound lines and this has as much or more to do with their relationship to Easton as it does with US demand for target recurve.

I DO hope that Hoyt shares with everyone who had orders canceled what was shared with me; at the very least with their own customer service staff to pass on, if not just share it openly. I do think they could have put the word out a little better and a little sooner in the US, though I was told that the message did get out to international distribution in a more timely and complete manner.

In the mean time, I'm going to circle back with my coach who has been in turn putting feelers out to other coaches for input... I'm still going to do some more trials of whatever I can get my hands on and see what suits me the best.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*I wonder if that 10-20% lost is due to Hoyt not catering to BB/Trad shooters. It is a growing section of recurve archers out there. I found the HPX is a great base for the BB archers. It does need a weight added to the bottom of the riser. The HPX's lower riser is already set up for a weight that will meet the NFAA and WA legal bows. It is a shame they don't have a BB/Trad riser. *


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## CwbyJohn (Jan 29, 2014)

Guess I will have to buy a 25 for my next riser haha


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

There you go.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Hoyt is proceeding with the 27, now that they have (barely) started to catch up with demand on the 25's.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I guess there is a market for 27" afterall. Hmmm...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> Hoyt is proceeding with the 27, now that they have (barely) started to catch up with demand on the 25's.


very interesting. Thanks for the update


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

It's gained 28 grams, perhaps Hoyt had to make a change in design so it was delayed?


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## KKW (Oct 20, 2015)

Surprised my dealer's Hoyt rep didn't let them know. I know I should be excited (and I am a bit), but after being told in no uncertain terms by someone at Hoyt who would know that it was outright canceled (not delayed), and spending a good deal of time looking at my other albeit limited options... now I am strongly considering the Gillo G1 27" offering. 

Just got a 19" Satori riser for my son (only way I could find an "olympic recurve" style riser short enough for him to wield) and just recently got a chance to put my hands on someone else's G2. While the Satori is nice, I had to spend an hour or so cleaning off the taping burrs and even shaving out some excess powder coat from the limb pockets, then fiddling with the limb pocket set screws to get them juuuuust right so the limbs studs would not be completely bound up... whereas the G2 had an impressive quality of fit and finish (considering it is their "budget" version) seemingly right out of the box. Now, that's comparing a $430 riser to a $300 riser, but it does make me wonder if a $790 riser will match the quality of a $600 riser...

Perhaps I'll have to compromise and get both. By compromise I mean forego some other purchase... like food maybe. I could stand to drop a few pounds.


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