# how do you define "target panic"?



## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

All,

I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic? 

Curious minds want to know. 

Thanks!


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Inability to perform an action due to fear of failure.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

The inability to control every aspect of the shot process.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

I think Simone's troubles are far worse than target panic. I read that she takes meds for her anxiety and those meds are illegal in Japan. So she went off of those meds and was overcome by what ails her.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

LD - 

What Stash said, only thing is the "fear" my not be, and usually isn't, conscious.
Gets more complicated as the symptoms can be all over the map. 

If some one gets TP or a variant at that level, something else is going on, or at least we're not getting the whole story. 
A good coach, should be able to see the early signs and nip it in the bud. 

Viper1 out.


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

So, pardon my questions. Is archery target panic mostly driven by perfectionism? Is it mainly competition driven? 

I have found some of my "down archery sessions" to be self-induced, self-competitive perfection. And at my stage of learning, only 3 months, those expectations are way high. 

I used to shoot college level small bore Olympic rifle. At a few matches I saw some epic meltdowns. The near perfect target, a great set of scores, and then everything disintegrating.

The mental and emotional aspects of archery, like many sports is part of the challenge.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

ld - 

The "fear" is ALWAYS self inflicted. It could be about "loosing" a match, missing a deer, looking bad in front of your friends (or a specific "friend"), or just even not living up to YOUR expectations. So, "competition" might be a reason, but it usually isn't #1 on the list, again because most serious competitors have a coach, and most coaches won't let it progress to that stage.

Viper1 out.


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## Graf228 (Dec 6, 2020)

I like everyones in depth explanation. My brain describes it as "Freaking the F out When on Target"


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

I have had the most fun and enjoyed shooting the most when I have a "light heart". 

Much thanks. 

aliquando unam sagittam


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I define it as: The struggle I have with myself every time I shoot a bow........Most days an onlooker would never know, but deep inside I have to work hard to keep it at bay.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


Same as the "yips" in golf. It's a form of target panic. It happens. Luckily for archers and golfers, we aren't faced with potentially being paralyzed if we try to compete with the condition.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> ld -
> 
> The "fear" is ALWAYS self inflicted. It could be about "loosing" a match, missing a deer, looking bad in front of your friends (or a specific "friend"), or just even not living up to YOUR expectations. So, "competition" might be a reason, but it usually isn't #1 on the list, again because most serious competitors have a coach, and most coaches won't let it progress to that stage.
> 
> Viper1 out.


You're talking about performance anxiety which is something different than target panic. Most people assume they are the same thing. They are not.

Also, most coaches have no effing clue how to help an athlete fix target panic. The ones that say they can never had it or never trained themselves out of it.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

For me TP is byproduct: lack of understanding the relation between execution and aiming process. Fear (to miss) is the result of this and is fuelled in background by other psychological traits.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

It is a psychological block most likely triggered by stress. It manifests itself in many different ways in archers. Different sports and professions have it too and the presentation is different in those as well. Not all archer get TP--Lina Bjorklund has said she has never suffered TP.


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## ZDC (Feb 17, 2021)

When you get a little worried because you just shot your neighbor


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> It is a psychological block most likely triggered by stress. It manifests itself in many different ways in archers. Different sports and professions have it too and the presentation is different in those as well. Not all archer get TP--Lina Bjorklund has said she has never suffered TP.


I have never experienced TP with the Olympic recurve. That stupid $10 metal blade completely eliminates it. Barebow however, is a completely different story. I've dealt with TP off and on shooting hunting recurves/barebow since the 1980's. 

The difference in relaxation I can achieve with an Olympic bow vs. a barebow is night and day. Like two completely different sports to me. 

As for TP coming from stress or self-induced anxiety, that doesn't explain why I have it in my back yard when I'm shooting alone with absolutely nothing on the line. TP is a short-circuit in the triggering mechanism. Performance anxiety (nerves) is something completely different.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> As for TP coming from stress or self-induced anxiety, that doesn't explain why I have it in my back yard when I'm shooting alone with absolutely nothing on the line. TP is a short-circuit in the triggering mechanism. Performance anxiety (nerves) is something completely different.


I agree it is odd. Writer's block is similar. Neither are nerves, but it is subconscious. It doesn't seem to be directly about performing well, performance anxiety, but it is obviously related to performing a certain action. Jake Kaminski has a very similar experience as you where having a clicker "cures" him of his target panic, but without one, it just comes back. He has been working on techniques to substitute the clicker in barebow for finger action on the riser. It seems more related to PTSD than anxiety. The clicker shorts the TP response by giving a neutral stimuli. I wonder if TP and all the other forms are a negative response of trying to act with perfection and the stress that it induces.


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## fcap60 (Jul 18, 2015)

I shot 3D with a friend who is a good shot and does well at the range. However, the 3D course he has Target Panic. I suggested he slow down and breath, but it appears to be mmore complicated. Basically, he would set his feet. Draw his bow back without setting up /dialing in/ finding the kill zone. Was shooting all over the place. 
He explained what was going through his head and it appears to be more than "taking a deep breath". He said he was considering hypnosis as a cure. I'll try to work with him some more, but it's really interesting..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> I agree it is odd. Writer's block is similar. Neither are nerves, but it is subconscious. It doesn't seem to be directly about performing well, performance anxiety, but it is obviously related to performing a certain action. Jake Kaminski has a very similar experience as you where having a clicker "cures" him of his target panic, but without one, it just comes back. He has been working on techniques to substitute the clicker in barebow for finger action on the riser. It seems more related to PTSD than anxiety. The clicker shorts the TP response by giving a neutral stimuli. I wonder if TP and all the other forms are *a negative response of trying to act with perfection and the stress that it induces*.


I think that would explain a lot. 

In TP the brain is trying to skip ahead to the conclusion rather than go through the steps. 

Feeling nervous in a big situation is a completely different thing, but a lot of people want to blame nerves for TP.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

Simply, the inability to control the shot


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PrimitiveGreek said:


> Simply, the inability to control the shot


Which can come from TP or from nerves.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I think one path to TP is due to the attitude "Shooting the bow is simple. You look, draw and shoot what you look at". You buy the bow, you go out and "you look, draw, shoot ..." and the arrow is not landing where you want. You try again, and again, and again until the arrow goes where you want. But in this "get the arrow where you look at" your shot sequence is less than stellar and you are starting to chase the result instead doing the footwork by learning a shot sequence that will put the arrow where you want IF you execute it right. Under self-imposed "hitting where you want" pressure you chase the result and your brain will protect you from the "damn, I didn't hit again" at one point in time. This path is something usual for self-taught archers - all the clinics are teaching the archer a shot sequence and force them to follow it.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

LD - [



> I have had the most fun and enjoyed shooting the most when I have a "light heart". [/quote}
> 
> But did you have the most fun because you had a light heart or did you have a light heart because you were having fun (or shooting well)?
> 
> ...


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I've shot poorly in cowboy action for fear of not doing my best at a shoot that was important to me. Done it with trad archery too. Doesn't mean I had target panic in either situation. There's always a real reason you missed, and a reason you nailed it. Setting and accomplishing attainable goals WITH a plan to get there keeps you on the road. Go back through your plan or sequence and try proving me wrong..... won a national competition in Phoenix in the pouring rain a couple years ago, and absolutely hate shooting anything in the rain! Guys get in trouble when they expect or hope for more than they're truly capable of, so again, attainable goals. You keep getting better with time and hard work, but you have to put that work into it. Or anything else in this life...... Mark


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> I have never experienced TP with the Olympic recurve. That stupid $10 metal blade completely eliminates it. Barebow however, is a completely different story.
> 
> Pardon my dense brain, but may I ask exactly what ten buck blade are you referring to please? I shoot recurve bow, no sights...and my biggest issue right now is sight picture/aim after expansion.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The clicker.


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> The clicker.


Walker of limbs,

Aha, I learned something new. Had to look up a video. Coach probably figures I am not ready for a clicker yet as I am still working on form consistency. I doubt I could hear a clicker with my hearing aids anyway? I will look to see if any other archers at the range are using one. Interesting. 

Coach did mention perhaps adding an aiming bead in my string?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lucydad said:


> Walker of limbs,
> 
> Aha, I learned something new. Had to look up a video. Coach probably figures I am not ready for a clicker yet as I am still working on form consistency. I doubt I could hear a clicker with my hearing aids anyway? I will look to see if any other archers at the range are using one. Interesting.
> 
> Coach did mention perhaps adding an aiming bead in my string?


If you're shooting barebow, an aiming bead on your string would be against the rules. If you're working your way toward Olympic style, then eventually you'll learn to use a clicker. Don't worry about hearing it. You will feel it if it is set up properly.


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## gbarber91 (Jun 24, 2009)

It manifests itself in my shooting by forcing me to be “locked off target”, causing me to “drive by” the bullseye and releasing on the move. It sucks. The only fix I’ve found for it has been a clicker (I’ve tried limb-mounted clickers and the RMS grip clicker and they both work great). 

I’m currently working my way through some Rod Jenkins coaching material for the next month and will see if that helps.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

ZDC said:


> When you get a little worried because you just shot your neighbor


That's I 'm going to prison panic-- a different category


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

gbarber91 said:


> It manifests itself in my shooting by forcing me to be “locked off target”, causing me to “drive by” the bullseye and releasing on the move. Is.


Oh yeah love those drive by shootings-- hardly ever work out--for me it is just trying to steady the bow and refusal to let down when I can't get the correct sight picture so I just let the arrow go---...


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

For me it is like a clock starts at the instant that I pull back on the bow. The shot will be released when a certain amount of time has elapsed, whether or not I'm ready for it to go or not. I work hard to ignore that clock. I usually only need maybe a quarter second more time to finish the shot sequence. That may be muscle memory and not target panic. What ever it is, it spoils my shots.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

"An uncontrollable urge to do something, you dont intentionally want to do, during the shot. "

It could be releasing early. It could be avoiding putting the sight on the target. It could be a variety of actions or inactions.

Using the word "subconscious" seems to bother some science types here since you can be aware of whats happening as you do it.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

As for the cause.

Habit is definitely involved. But the habit mostly seems to be formed as your brain tries to protect it self from various types psychic insult occuring during the shot.

It could be that your are repeatedly over aiming and hurting some aspect of your nervous system - so the brain is desperately trying protect itself by preventing you from aiming. There have been brain scans showing this brain damage is high level competition archers suffering from TP.

It could also be that the anxiety is out of control and your brain is trying to protect you from that.


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## ZDC (Feb 17, 2021)

woof156 said:


> That's I 'm going to prison panic-- a different category


Ok I was a little confused


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

One component of the shooting sequence I am working on: letting down the bow and stopping the shot if my sight/visual image goes out of focus...done it a couple times...the "system" wants an arrow to fly...


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Fighting it currently and training drills are working but….. it’s not competitive based in my case. At NFAA In Yankton, shot with no issues for the majority of the field round but it jumped up once or twice. Freeze below the target, can’t let down, can’t move my aim point… pull harder … the next few days were disappointing as it jumped on my back and wouldn’t let go.
Pulled out of tourneys for the rest of the year to fix it, or regain control of my shot. I put my oly clicker on my BB rig (yes I know it’s not legal, but for training) and my shot sequence is back. Put a grip pressure clicker on another bow and no issues. Hold and let down drills, blank bale shooting etc. I even pulled my compound and hinge release out. 
So to answer what it is in my opinion, a psychological disturbance to the ability to execute your shot sequence.


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## BowFlight (Jan 25, 2008)

This video by Tom Clum explains this topic in detail. Its a short circuiting of the shot process by an over efficient brain.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Dartwick said:


> Using the word "subconscious" seems to bother some science types here since you can be aware of whats happening as you do it.


Not sure why because the inability to compete the shot is subconscious. Awareness is a different matter. Knowing you cannot make the shot does not explain the subconscious behavior.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Dartwick said:


> Using the word "subconscious" seems to bother some science types here since you can be aware of whats happening as you do it.


O contrare-- science types are well aware of the fact that your subconcious part of the brain makes all your decisions before your concious brain realizes it happened- exception may be relfex Rx. Your subconcious brain says fire microsconds before you are aware you have and that creates a number of aiming problems. Your are only aware of what you subconscious brain has already done...been well and thoroughly researched....don't let your conscious brain kid you about that.....


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

Hard to explain, but definitely subconscious. An anxiety, subconscious urge to release the arrow. I constantly work on "hold and letdown" drills, which really helps. Also, I changed my focus from "got to score in the gold" to " lets set up a good shot". The drills and change in focus has immensely helped. (BTW - thanks to Viper1)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

BowFlight said:


> This video by Tom Clum explains this topic in detail. Its a short circuiting of the shot process by an over efficient brain.


This.

Competely different issue from performance anxiety.


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## raisins (Jan 21, 2016)

Having an object release a projectile in your hand is a weird thing for a human based upon our instincts. There's no reason to assume it is fear or something "bad". We are trying to do something very meticulously while knowing that the whole thing is going to go off in our hands. It's like with shooting heavy recoiling rifles. Almost everyone shoots a 22 LR better than a 338 win mag. Because most people subconsciously brace for being punched in the shoulder and anticipate it. Calling that "fear of recoil" is a bit of a negative exaggeration. No reason, necessarily, to think that you have to shrink your own head.


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## cgdubs (Jul 31, 2021)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


It’s terrible what happened to Simone I was rooting for her. Now she gets almost nothing. I didn’t realize she was taking meds like that for anxiety.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

cgdubs said:


> It’s terrible what happened to Simone I was rooting for her. Now she gets almost nothing. I didn’t realize she was taking meds like that for anxiety.


We would all be taking anxiety meds if we were her. The pressure the damn media puts on her is ridiculous.


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## cgdubs (Jul 31, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> We would all be taking anxiety meds if we were her. The pressure the damn media puts on her is ridiculous.


Yes that’s true I also saw how the athletes feel really weird in those huge empty stadiums. Pretty bizarre with all those empty seats.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

"Performance anxiety" is a cause, the symptoms of target panic are the manifestations. 
And technically, the performance only as to be "real" to the guy trying to do the action. 
That's why you can get TP all by yourself in your back yard, because there is an audience there - YOU.

And no the neurological changes may or may not be the same in every case, but most of time the treatment (short of drugs) is the same.

Viepr1 out.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> We would all be taking anxiety meds if we were her. The pressure the damn media puts on her is ridiculous.


Not sure about the media (she was a victim of Nassar and a corrupt USA Gymnastic organization, the media are just annoying). When your next performance could be your last, either from a traumatic injury or even death, the stress at performing at that level is enormous. Unless you step out of the firing line to pick up something you dropped, archery is pretty safe. The worst is a string slap, but then you should have had your guard on...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> "Performance anxiety" is a cause, the symptoms of target panic are the manifestations.
> And technically, the performance only as to be "real" to the guy trying to do the action.
> ...


wrong again.


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## cgdubs (Jul 31, 2021)

Hikari said:


> Not sure about the media (she was a victim of Nassar and a corrupt USA Gymnastic organization, the media are just annoying). When your next performance could be your last, either from a traumatic injury or even death, the stress at performing at that level is enormous. Unless you step out of the firing line to pick up something you dropped, archery is pretty safe. The worst is a string slap, but then you should have had your guard on...


Yes I was thinking that too. You’re not gonna land on your head while shooting.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Hikari said:


> Not sure why because the inability to compete the shot is subconscious. Awareness is a different matter. Knowing you cannot make the shot does not explain the subconscious behavior.


I explained what is happening while avoiding the saying whether or not its "sub-concious" Im simply not interested in debating the that word.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

woof156 said:


> O contrare-- science types are well aware of the fact that your subconcious part of the brain makes all your decisions before your concious brain realizes it happened- exception may be relfex Rx. Your subconcious brain says fire microsconds before you are aware you have and that creates a number of aiming problems. Your are only aware of what you subconscious brain has already done...been well and thoroughly researched....don't let your conscious brain kid you about that.....


NO

I have seen Phil who is about as "science type" as it gets over on Tradtalk say that was is happening in target panic doesnt fit the definition of "subconcious."

I didnt say "all" I said "some" - So dont go telling me im wrong.

I made no judgment as to whether or not the word "subconscious" fits. I simply explained what is happening without that word.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

She quit on her team. She took a spot some other girl has worked her whole life for, made the trip over, still gets a front row seat to watch and hang out, but quits before she even gets started. 
No broken bones, no torn ligaments, no debilitating injuries. 
She should be ashamed. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Dartwick said:


> NO
> 
> I have seen Phil who is about as "science type" as it gets over on Tradtalk say that was is happening in target panic doesnt fit the definition of "subconcious."
> 
> ...


Unless Phil is a qualified neurobiologist then his view of subconscious is just his view. Gawd forbid anyone should every imply you are wrong....so very sorry... But in the end who cares TP is TP for those afflicted just don't go telling science what science is supposed to "believe"/


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> She quit on her team. She took a spot some other girl has worked her whole life for, made the trip over, still gets a front row seat to watch and hang out, but quits before she even gets started.
> No broken bones, no torn ligaments, no debilitating injuries.
> She should be ashamed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


That might be the most ignorant, ill-informed post I've seen here in a while, and that takes some doing.

I assume you're criticizing Simone Biles, and you are 180 degrees from the truth. She helped her team, she didn't quit on them. No different than a pitcher being honest with the pitching coach and essentially taking himself out of the game when he just doesn't "have it" that day. That's how you help your team. Staying in and being stubborn and lying about your condition is how you hurt your team.

If you think that training for four years only to not compete in a 2 day event is something she wanted to do, you clearly don't understand what it means to have the mindset of an Olympian. Her maturity and thought process is so far ahead and above yours that it's no wonder you don't recognize it.

Now go get your damn vaccine so those of us who already have, can quit wearing these masks to protect you.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

woof156 said:


> Unless Phil is a qualified neurobiologist then his view of subconscious is just his view. Gawd forbid anyone should every imply you are wrong....so very sorry... But in the end who cares TP is TP for those afflicted just don't go telling science what science is supposed to "believe"/


You didnt imply I was wrong - you said i was wrong. But I wasnt. And now your are falling back on "who cares anyway." If you dont care anyway - maybe you shouldnt talk out of your butt telling people they are wrong.

I forget just what sort of research doctor Phil is - but hes worked with neuro-muscular whatever and etc.

Here is a link to him talking about the subconscious some years ago starting in the second post.








Subconscious pseudo science


In a thread elsewhere, instinctive archers were once again invoking the subconscious mind and its mechanics as the reason why their technique works. Now, I don't want to start another thread about instinctive archery, and I am certain that competent aiming can become subconscious, but I often...




www.tradtalk.com





Im not even saying hes right.

Im but i dont care for posts from people like you who say Im wrong when Im simply mentioning that other people have varying opinions.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

woof - 

Actually "Phil" is a neuro biologist, but has an issue differentiating between theoretical and clinical. However, you are correct, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's probably not a Volkswagen Beetle. 

You can make arguments on both sides, and it doesn't really change anything, the "fixes" are the same, behavior modification or "throwing a monkey wrench into the short circuit". .

Is it "subconscious" because it happens without the user's control (before he can stop it) or is conscious because he knows he's doing it, but can't stop it? Unfortunately, both manifestations exist and no you won't find "Target Panic" in the DSM-5, but I haven't looked lately.

You are also correct, that too many people give their opinions and assume that "every body else is wrong". That's called the Dunning-Kruger effect in the lay population, but IIRC that isn't in the DSM-5, either  So I guess neither are real???

As an aside, as much as it pains me, I have to agree with GCook on this one. If you need anti-anxiety meds to compete, maybe you shouldn't be there is the first place. Last time I checked, in this country, it's just a (stupid) game., but t hat's actually another discussion.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> woof -
> 
> Actually "Phil" is a neuro biologist, but has an issue differentiating between theoretical and clinical. However, you are correct, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's probably not a Volkswagen Beetle.
> 
> ...


That's probably because you and likely him - are from a generation where you were told to just "suck it up" and ignore mental health issues, or even physical ones for that matter. But now we know better and understand the lasting effects of leaving these issues untreated. What she did was incredibly difficult and brave and was the ultimate show of support for her teammates, but I don't expect anyone over the age of about 50 to see it that way, and I also don't expect anyone who hasn't ever trained for four years to do one thing, one time, to even understand.

However if it is nothing more that just a (stupid) game, what difference does it make to anyone else?


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Viper1 said:


> woof -
> 
> Actually "Phil" is a neuro biologist, but has an issue differentiating between theoretical and clinical. However, you are correct, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's probably not a Volkswagen Beetle.
> 
> ...


Except Wolf is the one who gave his opinion and said other people were wrong. 



I do agree that if you are taking anti-anxiety meds to be better at a sport - you have your priorities way out of whack.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

Ah, no. Medication for mental heath can actually fall into the category of a miracle drugs in many cases, but with obvious exceptions, they aren't the first line treatment. Behavior modification and removal of the causative factor is. Relying on them (the meds) to "perform" isn't good for the athlete or their fans, by doing long term harm to the athlete and perpetuates a myth to their fans. Sooner or later, it will catch up, on one level or another.

Sure, the "pressure" put on athletes and performers is way over the top and it's been getting worse, and our society isn't going to change, but until it does, it will only get worse, and no, I don't see a fix in the near future.

I doubt the OC will restrict an athlete for using anti-anxiety meds, but maybe they should, for the sake of the athlete and the sport.

John years ago, when things got to be "too much" for you, you ran off and took up golf, which is exactly what you should have done. And yeah, it's just a (stupid) game, the thing is, I actually believe that.

Viper1 out.


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## raisins (Jan 21, 2016)

woof156 said:


> O contrare-- science types are well aware of the fact that your subconcious part of the brain makes all your decisions before your concious brain realizes it happened- exception may be relfex Rx. Your subconcious brain says fire microsconds before you are aware you have and that creates a number of aiming problems. Your are only aware of what you subconscious brain has already done...been well and thoroughly researched....don't let your conscious brain kid you about that.....


There is an obvious feedback loop. Even if a part outside of your direct consciousness and control makes the decision before you think you did, then your conscious mind still evaluates that decision and then feeds that back into whatever "ghost in the machine" might be calling the initial shots. This process can happen very rapidly. So, to think that the conscious brain is just along for the ride as a spectator is wrong. I don't care if someone is a neurobiologist, it doesn't mean they are never wrong. It also doesn't mean they are brilliant. I know tons of PhD's that are only slightly above average.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John -
> 
> Ah, no. Medication for mental heath can actually fall into the category of a miracle drugs in many cases, but with obvious exceptions, they aren't the first line treatment. Behavior modification and removal of the causative factor is. Relying on them (the meds) to "perform" isn't good for the athlete or their fans, by doing long term harm to the athlete and perpetuates a myth to their fans. Sooner or later, it will catch up, on one level or another.
> 
> ...


*** are you talking about? You have no idea what you are talking about. LOL

At no time did I "run off and take up golf." I'd love to know where you got that. I was playing golf long before I picked up the Olympic bow and I sat out the 2008 trials due to an injury in my right arm that prevented me from shooting for nearly a year. Four years later I was shooting the best scores of my competitive career.

Also, my shooting career never was and was never going to be a full-time endeavor for me. I picked it up and put it down routinely. I never wanted archery to be my full-time job, even though I had several offers to make it so.

The only thing that ever got to be "too much for me" was the politics because I was deep in the coaching circle for a couple years. But that had nothing to do with my shooting.

You really should get your facts straight.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

I would like to point out one thing - almost everyone here is relating "target panic" directly to performance anxiety.

Im sure that is what going on for many probably most people. 

But you should acknowledge that over aiming can also do it. 








The Secret Curse of Expert Archers (Published 2008)


There is an affliction so feared by elite archers that many refuse to even speak its name. It causes even crack shots to suddenly lose control of their bows, and their composure.




www.nytimes.com





Have you ever had the uncomfortable sensation that comes from to repeatedly thread needles, shoot a gun very exactly, or draw tiny exact designs. You do it too much and you feel compelled to stop. If you force yourself to keep trying your some part of your mind starts trying to stop you. 

In action "target panic" is really just a bad habit that starts to prevent you from doing something uncomfortable. It gets its name because performance anxiety often create the habit.
But you can create the bad habit other ways.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

I recall you posting that upstairs in the FITA forum or it may have been in a PM after one of your hiatuses. 
I also have a pretty good guess as to where your current posts and attitude are coming from, and I'm sorry for that. 
Sometimes you really do need to step back and see what you're doing as how it's being perceived. 
Please, lets not turn this into facebook.

Anyway, we're off topic. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John -
> 
> I recall you posting that upstairs in the FITA forum or it may have been in a PM after one of your hiatuses.
> I also have a pretty good guess as to where your current posts and attitude are coming from, and I'm sorry for that.
> ...


Again, you have no idea what you're talking about, but that's never stopped you before.

Nothing "new" old friend. You've just managed to find my limit. Simple as that. Accusing me of picking up golf to run away from archery is the latest example of you once again assuming you know more than you actually do. Plenty here have seen through the smoke screen. Long ago, I asked you to provide some names of archers you've trained that we would recognize, so that you might establish some credibility. But you refused to. I wonder why.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dart - 

I've read a number of articles on TP, have a fair amount of experience dealing with people who have it, wrote about it and actually had it myself. 

The following assumes an experienced shooter, or one who hasn't over-bowed himself or been "self-trained" from the get go:

It's unlikely that anyone wakes up one morning with TP, it's a gradual process that goes unchecked. Yes, it typically begins with a slight laxity or complacency (read sloppiness) that either goes unnoticed or is (consciously, there's that word again) ignored. Typically, whatever the manifestation, it progresses to a point where the shooter can't control it. Since we assumed the shooter was shooting at a decent level, the ego has an issue with the "lack of performance" and the harder he works at it, the worse he gets. That's the "performance anxiety" part and as I said above, there's always an audience. 

That's why the (usually) most effective treatment is the monkey wrench tactic, or distraction, to break the neural pathway causing it (the symptom). 

The problem people have is that the cause(s) may or may not be obvious, and several may be intertwined. Sometimes, you have to treat the symptom and not the cause, and sometimes vice versa. 

Viper1 out.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

You're beating a dead horse, I nor most of the people I've trained have any interest in the Olympic or being nationally ranked. they just like shooting (and hopefully shooting well). Believe it or not, that describes most archers, and given what we've seen, it seems to be a much heather approach.

And btw - I did send you a number of names a while back, and even asked you to talk to some one of them in Vegas,or somewhere you were shooting. 

As I said upstairs, I have no real interest in the Olympics (and haven't followed it in years) for the simple reason, nothing that happens there has any effect on me or any (ok most) of my students. 

Again, you're making it personal, and I don't think that's the point. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John -
> 
> You're beating a dead horse, I nor most of the people I've trained have any interest in the Olympic or being nationally ranked. they just like shooting (and hopefully shooting well). Believe it or not, that describes most archers, and given what we've seen, it seems to be a much heather approach.
> 
> ...


If you and your archers have never shot for anything that matters, then why have you or any of them ever gotten target panic? By your own explanation, that isn't possible.

I'm making it personal. LOL Okay. I'll fix that by putting you on ignore for a while. Cheers.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

This tread is giving me TP.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

You did read what I wrote, right?
And yeah, the ignore list is a good thing.

Take care, buddy.

Viper1 out..


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> That might be the most ignorant, ill-informed post I've seen here in a while, and that takes some doing.
> 
> I assume you're criticizing Simone Biles, and you are 180 degrees from the truth. She helped her team, she didn't quit on them. No different than a pitcher being honest with the pitching coach and essentially taking himself out of the game when he just doesn't "have it" that day. That's how you help your team. Staying in and being stubborn and lying about your condition is how you hurt your team.
> 
> ...


She quit. That's all that needs to be said. Many athletes have played with broken bones, collapsed lungs, all kinds of things they had to have the physical and mental toughness to do their part for the team. 
I went back to work as an individual mechanic 5 day after an inguinal hernia repair because my team was short handed and over run. 
Unless some proof of a debilitating injury surfaced to me she should never be allowed to compete again.
You can shove your vaccine in your ass. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> She quit. That's all that needs to be said. Many athletes have played with broken bones, collapsed lungs, all kinds of things they had to have the physical and mental toughness to do their part for the team.
> I went back to work as an individual mechanic 5 day after an inguinal hernia repair because my team was short handed and over run.
> Unless some proof of a debilitating injury surfaced to me she should never be allowed to compete again.
> You can shove your vaccine in your ass.
> ...


Yup, you confirmed what I expected. 

Don't worry. The rest of us will protect you from yourself.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

At this point in this race it's likely a better discussion to be about what some of us have done to get our shooting back to where we like it to be. Yes it is all very possible to get better after being stung by the TP bug. But I would venture that would require a new thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PrimitiveGreek said:


> At this point in this race it's likely a better discussion to be about what some of us have done to get our shooting back to where we like it to be. Yes it is all very possible to get better after being stung by the TP bug. But I would venture that would require a new thread.


I used the clicker on my Olympic rig to help me shoot barebow. It worked for a couple years then eventually the TP returned. I'm back to shooting Olympic for a while, I think.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Which can come from TP or from nerves.


Nerves can be overcome with experience, controlling your shot requires a deeper thought process into analyzing what you are being triggered by


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> I used the clicker on my Olympic rig to help me shoot barebow. It worked for a couple years then eventually the TP returned. I'm back to shooting Olympic for a while, I think.


May I ask a question because I have never been on Olympic styled shooter. I have been told that the clicker in Olympic archery is not intended as a tool to combat TP but to be used as a draw/anchor check? yet in traditional circles clickers are mainly used to combat TP. Is it possible that Olympic shooters are also using it for TP without knowing ?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PrimitiveGreek said:


> May I ask a question because I have never been on Olympic styled shooter. I have been told that the clicker in Olympic archery is not intended as a tool to combat TP but to be used as a draw/anchor check? yet in traditional circles clickers are mainly used to combat TP. Is it possible that Olympic shooters are also using it for TP without knowing ?


For me, it's both. Initially, it was designed as a draw check and even today you still see a few older archers using it that way. But ever since Darrell Pace discovered it could be used to trigger the release (I think it was him) archers have been using it that way because it's incredibly effective. 

I think a lot of Olympic shooters who otherwise would have developed TP, are shooting successfully with a clicker and just don't know that's why. Most Olympic style shooters have never tried shooting barebow seriously, so they haven't had time to develop TP with the barebow.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

For my self, fighting TP became a whole lot easier once I realized when I hit anchor, it would trigger my release. Once I started to focus on getting to anchor and focus on putting string pressure it allowed me to avoid shooting prematurely. By snap shooting I never got to the point where I felt I was in control of the shot or specifically the aim portion. By using the string tension at anchor as the focus I became stronger on the shot and much better overall form leading to more consistent results from having seconds more to aim.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Hikari said:


> very


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

If I feel my TP coming on. I focus on drawing until the feather touches my nose.
My TP is trigger when the arrow is close to the spot. 
Dan


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

PG -

The clicker was invented by Fred Leder in 1957 as a means of stopping or over-riding target panic. Earl Hoyt defined it as a draw check (as opposed to a release trigger) to get it passed FITA rules.

For trained Olympic shooters, it IS a release trigger, and in theory, an anticipatory response links the click to the release. While not easy to do, the goal is to take the conscious control out of the release process.

But, for people with TP, it takes the mind off the release (and to some degree, off the target) and gives them a concrete "thing" (the click) to focus on.

I stared using a clicker bare bow, because I couldn't consistently over-ride the TP urge, the clicker stopped that pretty much dead in it's tracks, and that's what got me into Olympic recurve (what we used to call "target archery").

And just to muddy the water, yes, clicker panic, for lack of a better term can happen. That's when the shooter doesn't miss a beat breaking a clicker at a blank bale, but has a devil of a time with a real target. Happily, that's usually a lot easier to fix.

And for the folks who aren't familiar with a clicker, I try to wait until a shooter's form is pretty well established before introducing them to a clicker. There are two exceptions to that rule, obviously one is TP and the other is an inconsistent draw length, that can't be corrected with simple form exercises.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DDSHOOTER said:


> If I feel my TP coming on. I focus on drawing until the feather touches my nose.
> My TP is trigger when the arrow is close to the spot.
> Dan


That works for some folks. Unfortunately you can move your head about 1-2" so it's not a good draw length check. But it does work for some as a trigger to release.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

If your in control of yourself you could use as away to aim. Coming from years of compound finger barebow.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> PG -
> 
> The clicker was invented by Fred Leder in 1957 as a means of stopping or over-riding target panic. Earl Hoyt defined it as a draw check (as opposed to a release trigger) to get it passed FITA rules.
> 
> ...


Thank you Viper, didn't realize that the clicker went that far back. Based on what you mention, is it out of the question to say almost every archer has TP to some degree, and that the successful archers are those who can manage it consistently? vs those who fail to acknowledge the correct cause and lead themselves in circles in trying to get it under control.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

PG - 

LOL, that's a loaded question. 
The idea of the anticipatory response is usually a good one, since if you think about the release (which happens faster than you can control), there's a greater chance of messing it up. Training it to be a reaction (in my way of thinking, a controlled reaction) rather than a separate action, solves that problem and why I tell people that the clicker is the best thing they'll ever hate. 

So no, I don't think every body as TP in one form or another, but getting the brain out of the way is sometimes a best practices approach. Then knowing the differences between the parts of the shot you have (or should have) control over and which parts you don't (or shouldn't) makes the difference. 

Viper1 out.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> For me, it's both. Initially, it was designed as a draw check and even today you still see a few older archers using it that way. But ever since Darrell Pace discovered it could be used to trigger the release (I think it was him) archers have been using it that way because it's incredibly effective.
> 
> I think a lot of Olympic shooters who otherwise would have developed TP, are shooting successfully with a clicker and just don't know that's why. Most Olympic style shooters have never tried shooting barebow seriously, so they haven't had time to develop TP with the barebow.


This is mostly why I have decided to buy a full olympic setup. I had TP when I shot compounds, and it followed me to barebow. I want to learn to shoot a clicker, just to see how good I can be. The boys at winter indoor league are going to crap when I show up with that thing. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

This is the most depressing thread I have yet to read at AT.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> This is the most depressing thread I have yet to read at AT.


I figure that's why we have three disciplines that are so uniquely different. I'm thankful that I found Olympic recurve, even though I really resisted it at first.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

strugglesticks said:


> This is mostly why I have decided to buy a full olympic setup. I had TP when I shot compounds, and it followed me to barebow. I want to learn to shoot a clicker, just to see how good I can be. The boys at winter indoor league are going to crap when I show up with that thing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Struggle the boys at winter league will probably check your clicker response by snapping plastic spoons on the table when you're at full draw. My gang did and I released every time, even after I shot a clicker long enough to argue that I felt rather than heard the thing. Clicker..... love to hate is pretty accurate as is it will probably take a year to learn how to shoot a full blown FITA rig with some degree of accuracy. It looks easy. it's not.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

3finger said:


> Struggle the boys at winter league will probably check your clicker response by snapping plastic spoons on the table when you're at full draw. My gang did and I released every time, even after I shot a clicker long enough to argue that I felt rather than heard the thing. Clicker..... love to hate is pretty accurate as is it will probably take a year to learn how to shoot a full blown FITA rig with some degree of accuracy. It looks easy. it's not.


Get ready for the workout. Most people have no idea how physically demanding that tiny piece of steel can be.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

3finger said:


> Struggle the boys at winter league will probably check your clicker response by snapping plastic spoons on the table when you're at full draw. My gang did and I released every time, even after I shot a clicker long enough to argue that I felt rather than heard the thing. Clicker..... love to hate is pretty accurate as is it will probably take a year to learn how to shoot a full blown FITA rig with some degree of accuracy. It looks easy. it's not.


That's just mean! I fully expect to be a slave to the clicker. 


limbwalker said:


> Get ready for the workout. Most people have no idea how physically demanding that tiny piece of steel can be.


That is what I hear. I am hunting with 51# and I was planning to start with the olympic bow using limbs marked 40#. However the Sanlida limbs I bought came in about 4# heavy, so I'll be more like 47# at my draw length. I have some lighter Ragim limbs too if I need something to learn on.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

GCook said:


> She quit. That's all that needs to be said. Many athletes have played with broken bones, collapsed lungs, all kinds of things they had to have the physical and mental toughness to do their part for the team.
> I went back to work as an individual mechanic 5 day after an inguinal hernia repair because my team was short handed and over run.
> Unless some proof of a debilitating injury surfaced to me she should never be allowed to compete again.
> You can shove your vaccine in your ass.
> ...


Didn't Simone win some medals one year with broken toes? Mental struggle can be more debilitating than physical injury. I'm choosing to be disappointed FOR her, rather than being disappointed IN her.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

strugglesticks said:


> That's just mean! I fully expect to be a slave to the clicker. That is what I hear. I am hunting with 51# and I was planning to start with the olympic bow using limbs marked 40#. However the Sanlida limbs I bought came in about 4# heavy, so I'll be more like 47# at my draw length. I have some lighter Ragim limbs too if I need something to learn on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


You hunt with 51 and you're gonna shoot a clicker at 47? Oh boy. I'll pray for you.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

strugglesticks said:


> Didn't Simone win some medals one year with broken toes? Mental struggle can be more debilitating than physical injury. I'm choosing to be disappointed FOR her, rather than being disappointed IN her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Some people just need to put others down to feel better about themselves.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> You hunt with 51 and you're gonna shoot a clicker at 47? Oh boy. I'll pray for you.


Noted. I guess I'll start with the lighter Ragims. They should be around 41# at my draw length. I'm making myself wait until after my hunting has concluded for the year. Then I'll order the riser and "attachments". 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Its off topic, but since everyone is going there....

I dont see the big deal about Simon. She didnt do anything wrong or screw over her team mates by withdrawing. Nor did she do anything heroic by sitting down.

She had some type of temporary mental breakdown - it happens - someone else who isnt having a mental breakdown wins. Everyone moves on.


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## lucydad (Apr 24, 2021)

Hikari said:


> This is the most depressing thread I have yet to read at AT.


Apologies, but I have learned a few things.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I would rather go to psychologist if I would have TP, not the coach who trained me until I got it. Just because a psychologist can tell me that with enough repetition a behaviour can become automatic BUT it doesn't stay that way. The need to always exercise the basics - aka the things I can control are correct executed - should be part of the training. Our brain is wired toward the negative, and when something bad happens, instead returning to the basics the tendency is to try something different. Get good results using the bad method and in time you will create another habit. This should be enough to keep all the things in check and adopt a right mindset framework.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dart -

We're all speculating, so this all goes under the FWIW umbrella. If her "coach" knew she was on anti-anxiety meds (because of the competition), he should have pulled her off the team for her own good; if he gave them to her, he should be arrested, or at least removed. If some one has a medical (or psychological) problem, you try to fix it,not enable it. Meds have their place,and it ain't on a "sports field", IMHO anyway. It's just a stupid "sport",and in the case of the "Olympics", it's more of a show than a sport. But this is were we are and as long as it makes money, it ain't changing.

Viper1 out..


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

strugglesticks said:


> That's just mean! I fully expect to be a slave to the clicker. That is what I hear. I am hunting with 51# and I was planning to start with the olympic bow using limbs marked 40#. However the Sanlida limbs I bought came in about 4# heavy, so I'll be more like 47# at my draw length. I have some lighter Ragim limbs too if I need something to learn on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Strugglesticks From a very early age (BC: Before Compounds) I was overwhelmed by the enthusiasm, support and overall goodwill everyone I came in contact with in archery extended to me . That overall goodness has repeated itself over and over again throughout life. It is in this spirit that I suggest you wake into the FITA waters with a bow draw weight somewhere in the mid 30# range.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Yup, you confirmed what I expected.
> 
> Don't worry. The rest of us will protect you from yourself.


Not everyone is a sheep like you. Some of us understand that not all illness is bad. I dont get flu shots, I don't worry about getting a cold. The human body takes care of itself. 
If you're scared get your vaccine and wear your mask. Ignore the fact that the virus is so small none of your masks stop it, ignore the fact vaccinated people are still getting it, still giving it to other people. 
Your ignorance shows the more you type. Keep typing and proving how lost and incapable of cognitive and independent the liberal sheep are. Keep staying at home and collecting your unemployment thebrestbof us working people are paying for you. Pathetic. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> Not everyone is a sheep like you. Some of us understand that not all illness is bad. I dont get flu shots, I don't worry about getting a cold. The human body takes care of itself.
> If you're scared get your vaccine and wear your mask. Ignore the fact that the virus is so small none of your masks stop it, ignore the fact vaccinated people are still getting it, still giving it to other people.
> Your ignorance shows the more you type. Keep typing and proving how lost and incapable of cognitive and independent the liberal sheep are. Keep staying at home and collecting your unemployment thebrestbof us working people are paying for you. Pathetic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


"scared" LOL

Nah, I just care about others. 

As for ignorance, nobody who is afraid of the vaccine can even explain how they work. LOL

Yup, you hit every talking point. Congratulations. You are exactly what we all figured you were based on your one comment about someone who has accomplished more than you ever will.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> "scared" LOL
> 
> Nah, I just care about others.
> 
> ...


John save your breath. Feeding grain to a dead horse just ain't your style.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

GCook said:


> Not everyone is a sheep like you. *Some of us understand that not all illness is bad. I dont get flu shots, I don't worry about getting a cold. The human body takes care of itself.*
> If you're scared get your vaccine and wear your mask. Ignore the fact that the virus is so small none of your masks stop it, ignore the fact vaccinated people are still getting it, still giving it to other people.
> Your ignorance shows the more you type. Keep typing and proving how lost and incapable of cognitive and independent the liberal sheep are. Keep staying at home and collecting your unemployment thebrestbof us working people are paying for you. Pathetic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


These exact words were said to me by a person until his brother got 6' under. Bravado is good until death hits close to home.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

GCook said:


> Not everyone is a sheep like you. Some of us understand that not all illness is bad. I dont get flu shots, I don't worry about getting a cold. The human body takes care of itself.
> If you're scared get your vaccine and wear your mask. Ignore the fact that the virus is so small none of your masks stop it, ignore the fact vaccinated people are still getting it, still giving it to other people.
> Your ignorance shows the more you type. Keep typing and proving how lost and incapable of cognitive and independent the liberal sheep are. Keep staying at home and collecting your unemployment thebrestbof us working people are paying for you. Pathetic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Fyi the virus does not just float out of a persons mouth freely. It is attached to the humidity in breath, which is blocked and contained by masks. I don't get flu shots or worry about colds either. But this ain't that. If the truth ever comes out about the origins of this kung-flu, you will understand why it is so deadly. The human body was not designed to defeat this, but rather the other way around. The anti-vaccine crowd is responsible for this current wave of the pandemic. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not getting the vaccine is un-American. Period. Full stop. What this has to do with target panic? I have no idea. LOL

Last thing I'll post on this is that whenever there is a threat, there are two kinds of people who are not scared. 1) The prepared, and 2) The ignorant.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Getting the vaccine is a choice. They are already proving it ineffective. When you PCP wont get it because they don't trust it that should be a red flag. I see 3 doctors, pain management and orthopedic besides my PCP and everyone of them say there are too many problems for them to trust it.
There is no way I'm putting that in my body.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> Getting the vaccine is a choice. They are already proving it ineffective. When you PCP wont get it because they don't trust it that should be a red flag. I see 3 doctors, pain management and orthopedic besides my PCP and everyone of them say there are too many problems for them to trust it.
> There is no way I'm putting that in my body.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Being an un-American selfish twit is also a choice. Ignoring science, is a choice. If that's the advice you're getting, I'd find some new doctors.


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## K_Keefer11 (Jul 23, 2021)

Knowing what your sight picture or performance should look like, but never achieving it.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Being an un-American selfish twit is also a choice. Ignoring science, is a choice. If that's the advice you're getting, I'd find some new doctors.


You know you're most likely a very intelligent, nice and productive person. Sometimes I let things get under my skin and respond personally when I shouldn't. I apologize for that. 
However I've survived 4 heart attacks, shot, knifed, a boat dock I was working on being flipped and thrown 30 yards in a tornado, a ruptured spleen and being hit by a car.
I'm not too damn worried about a virus I've already had killing me.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> You know you're most likely a very intelligent, nice and productive person. Sometimes I let things get under my skin and respond personally when I shouldn't. I apologize for that.
> However I've survived 4 heart attacks, shot, knifed, a boat dock I was working on being flipped and thrown 30 yards in a tornado, a ruptured spleen and being hit by a car.
> I'm not too damn worried about a virus I've already had killing me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Fair enough. But consider doing it for those around you that you care about. The reason we have these more infectious variants is because not enough people got the vaccine when it became available. 

And yes, I am a (fairly) intelligent, nice and productive person. One who cares about others around me. It's my Christian duty to look out for my brother and sister, therefore I got the vaccine as soon as I could so as to be less likely to contribute to the problem.


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## spruis (Jan 15, 2015)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


If you look at the breadth of the responses to this question, you can see why we have made very little progress in dealing with target panic. We do not even have a good definition of it. Do not our archery organizations have enough standing to ask a university psychology professor or even a whole department to study the topic. It would be nice to know if all cases are alike or whether there are varieties. It would be nice to know how much of th problem is mental and how much is physical. It would be nice to know . . . a great deal but all we have now are opinions and opinions not based upon solid data.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

spruis said:


> If you look at the breadth of the responses to this question, you can see why we have made very little progress in dealing with target panic. We do not even have a good definition of it. Do not our archery organizations have enough standing to ask a university psychology professor or even a whole department to study the topic. It would be nice to know if all cases are alike or whether there are varieties. It would be nice to know how much of th problem is mental and how much is physical. It would be nice to know . . . a great deal but all we have now are opinions and opinions not based upon solid data.


Could that also be due to the fact that it manifests itself differently in different archers though?


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## archerichards (Sep 21, 2016)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


I think there are some valid comparisons. I think of TP as an inability to either activate/deactivate the autopilot nature of the brain. In archery, your subconscious brain wants to take over the autopilot function and get that arrow gone, or shift the point of aim as it sees fit. For gymnasts, the brain that previously could easily execute aerobatic rotations refuses to do so; it won't turn ON. This of course is super dangerous for the athlete. 

At the end of the day Biles is an extraordinary athlete: the best in the world, ever, at her sport. If she says she has the Twisties and must return to compete another day, then I respect that.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

archerichards said:


> I think there are some valid comparisons. I think of TP as an inability to either activate/deactivate the autopilot nature of the brain. In archery, your subconscious brain wants to take over the autopilot function and get that arrow gone, or shift the point of aim as it sees fit. For gymnasts, the brain that previously could easily execute aerobatic rotations refuses to do so; it won't turn ON. This of course is super dangerous for the athlete.
> 
> At the end of the day Biles is an extraordinary athlete: the best in the world, ever, at her sport. If she says she has the Twisties and must return to compete another day, then I respect that.


As should everyone else - especially those who have never competed at her level in a sport that could paralyze or kill you.


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## MikeK (Dec 30, 2003)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


If you draw, come to perfect sight/target alignment, are physically unable to release but instead your release-hand begins to shake -- that is my understanding of what 'target panic' is. The way to deal with it is 'blank-bale exercise' which is to stand ten feet in front of a shooting backstop with no target face on it, come to full draw, forget about aiming and concentrate on nothing but releasing. Continue this exercise until you have absolute control of your release, then put a target up and continue the exercise with the target and aiming until the problem is purged.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

MikeK said:


> If you draw, come to perfect sight/target alignment, are physically unable to release but instead your release-hand begins to shake -- that is my understanding of what 'target panic' is. The way to deal with it is 'blank-bale exercise' which is to stand ten feet in front of a shooting backstop with no target face on it, come to full draw, forget about aiming and concentrate on nothing but releasing. Continue this exercise until you have absolute control of your release, then put a target up and continue the exercise with the target and aiming until the problem is purged.


This is one manifestation of TP I have never heard of. I think it is so hard to define because there are so many different symptoms. But I do believe it is mental in every case, and not so much physical.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

My understanding is that Target Panic is a physical manifestation of Psychological issue. It can manifest in many different ways, depends on the person.

It could be (not an absolute):

1) Inability to place pin/dot/arrow tip on the target
2) Sudden flinches when on target.
3) Inability to hold on target; tendency to snap shooting/drive-by shooting.
4) Slamming the trigger/pluck the string when pin/dot/arrow tip is on target.

And many others.

Performance anxiety could lead to Target Panic. in fact I have seen many people (myself included) that shoot great scores during practice but melt down once scoring end starts.

As with any psychological disorders, TP is difficult to fix permanently for majority of the people. We all deal with it at some point of our archery journey, some deal with it better than others, some do not.

I don't think Twisties in Gymnastics is comparable to Target panic in Archery... It's worst. 

Why? because Gymnasts suffering from the Twisties lose their sense of orientation while doing their routine. This can have dire consequences if they fail to recover and land properly because they lost their sense of spatial orientation, they could injure themselves or even die if they landed head-first.

If we suffer from target panic while shooting, we will either miss our target, destroy an arrow, damage bales/backstops... but rarely result in injury or death of the archer.

That's the difference.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

spruis said:


> If you look at the breadth of the responses to this question, you can see why we have made very little progress in dealing with target panic. We do not even have a good definition of it. Do not our archery organizations have enough standing to ask a university psychology professor or even a whole department to study the topic. It would be nice to know if all cases are alike or whether there are varieties. It would be nice to know how much of th problem is mental and how much is physical. It would be nice to know . . . a great deal but all we have now are opinions and opinions not based upon solid data.



The problem is the archer comes in archery with his own psychological traits too. Trying to dismiss this it is wrong. A University Psychology professor or even an entire department will tell you each case should be treated individually, and it is better to prevent than cure. That's why the way the teaching is provided is more important than anything else.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

A term created to have something to blame for allowing a bad shooting habit to become the norm and then feeling like you can't control it. TP is just letting bad habits get out of control and can be fixed by creating new, good habits in their place.

Personally, I don't think TP and the "twisties" are the same thing. I was a gymnast, gymnastics coach and a judge and the "twisties" in my case and in the case of other gymnasts that I coached and competed against, is more like a loss of proprioception or awareness of where you are in space, as you're flying through the air. It doesn't really bother on skills on the ground or when you're not inverting or twisting a lot but will pop up when there's a disconnect between what your body is doing in the air and what your brain thinks it's doing. That can lead to uncertainty and hesitancy in performing the skills and cause a "mental block" but it's a physical phenomena that causes a mental anxiety or fear. It's not just a bad habit gone wild.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

Interesting reading so far, I was hoping there was a vaccine to cure TP, oh well wrong vaccine


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Stash said:


> Inability to perform an action due to fear of failure.


May I amend your response by inserting "properly" before perform.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Boomer2094 said:


> Performance anxiety could lead to Target Panic. in fact I have seen many people (myself included) that shoot great scores during practice but melt down once scoring end starts.


Again, performance anxiety may influence target panic, but what you're describing is simply performance anxiety. 

I think it's important to separate the two things and treat them individually.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

TP is choking which is also the yips.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PrimitiveGreek said:


> Interesting reading so far, I was hoping there was a vaccine to cure TP, oh well wrong vaccine


Even if there was a vaccine, I think we've proven now that fully half the archers would refuse to take it, declaring they aren't going to live in fear of TP


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I've heard from a very reliable source the side effect of Covid vaccine is that it is curing TP due to the 5G microchip. They say that if you call 1-800-788 -7437 someone will push the switch and the automatic on (or off) will happen allowing for a better shooting experience.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> I've heard from a very reliable source the side effect of Covid vaccine is that it is curing TP due to the 5G microchip. They say that if you call 1-800-788 -7437 someone will push the switch and the automatic on (or off) will happen allowing for a better shooting experience.


I heard the same thing. Can't wait to call.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

GCook said:


> However I've survived 4 heart attacks, shot, knifed, a boat dock I was working on being flipped and thrown 30 yards in a tornado, a ruptured spleen and being hit by a car.


Dude! If you weren't a tough son-of-a-gun before all of that, you gotta be one now.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...


Well, in archery it's often looking for an excuse to buy more gear/gadgets instead of paying for coaching time


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Arcus said:


> Dude! If you weren't a tough son-of-a-gun before all of that, you gotta be one now.


God has not been ready for me to come home yet I guess. But I have learned a little pain tolerance and mental toughness.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

GCook said:


> Getting the vaccine is a choice. They are already proving it ineffective. When you PCP wont get it because they don't trust it that should be a red flag. I see 3 doctors, pain management and orthopedic besides my PCP and everyone of them say there are too many problems for them to trust it.
> There is no way I'm putting that in my body.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


ignorance is bliss


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

woof156 said:


> ignorance is bliss


It really is.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There are two ways people respond to a threat, prepare or ignore. We see it all the time.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey guys -

Off topic much?

Regarding target panic, it's been defined a pretty long time ago, and the definition or corrective measures haven't changed. 
It's just another case of arguing for the sake of arguing.

Viper1 out.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

"GCook said:
However I've survived 4 heart attacks, shot, knifed, a boat dock I was working on being flipped and thrown 30 yards in a tornado, a ruptured spleen and being hit by a car."

Do NOT accept a ride from this guy. Do NOT stand next to him in a thunderstorm.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

woof156 said:


> ignorance is bliss


Yes but the reality is to people who believe as I do believe you are the ignorant ones. 
Not saying that to offend but personally I see Fauci as a liar and traitor who should be charged and tried. I see skewed numbers, misrepresentations of who actually had died from this and a government who couldn't tell the truth if they had to. This is a money grab and a fear mongering to manipulate the populace, destroy the economy and force America into the socialist world community the Clintons were pushing when I was a younger man.
I don't believe this is any worse than the flu. I know a person in the middle of a lawsuit with the insurance company and hospital because her husband's death was listed as covid when he clearly died from the injuries of an accident. Just because he tested positive for it, but was completely symptom free, the cause of death was listed as the virus. Not the internal injuries that caused the blood loss and trauma that actually killed him.
The reality is the "facts" are interpreted completely different by both sides.
The fact that I have a grandson who was damaged by the vaccination process as a baby also tells me there is definitely a reason to question everything.
Your reality may be to trust your government. Mine isn't. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Wow. Now I see. It’s ok for you to call names etc.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GCook said:


> Yes but the reality is to people who believe as I do believe you are the ignorant ones.
> Not saying that to offend but personally I see Fauci as a liar and traitor who should be charged and tried. I see skewed numbers, misrepresentations of who actually had died from this and a government who couldn't tell the truth if they had to. This is a money grab and a fear mongering to manipulate the populace, destroy the economy and force America into the socialist world community the Clintons were pushing when I was a younger man.
> I don't believe this is any worse than the flu. I know a person in the middle of a lawsuit with the insurance company and hospital because her husband's death was listed as covid when he clearly died from the injuries of an accident. Just because he tested positive for it, but was completely symptom free, the cause of death was listed as the virus. Not the internal injuries that caused the blood loss and trauma that actually killed him.
> The reality is the "facts" are interpreted completely different by both sides.
> ...


None of this is surprising based on your comments about Biles. Straight up scripted narrative.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Based on my suffering with TP, I think Limbwalker has pointed out an important distinction. Performance anxiety is a different issue. It will make TP worse but TP has deeper roots. It is all about malfunction of the subconscious. With the snap shooting variation, the sc has formed an undesirable short cut in the shot cycle. Another variation is freezing and the inability to achieve aim. It seems the sc wants to avoid the shock of shooting the bow and refuses to cooperate. In both cases the cure involves breaking the sc connection between aiming and release.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

camperjim said:


> Based on my suffering with TP, I think Limbwalker has pointed out an important distinction. Performance anxiety is a different issue. It will make TP worse but TP has deeper roots. It is all about malfunction of the subconscious. With the snap shooting variation, the sc has formed an undesirable short cut in the shot cycle. Another variation is freezing and the inability to achieve aim. It seems the sc wants to avoid the shock of shooting the bow and refuses to cooperate. In both cases the cure involves breaking the sc connection between aiming and release.


Would "undesirable short cut" by synonymous with "bad habit". I think a lot of people like to make TP out to be this sinister thing that worms its way into our subconscious like Freddy Krueger in our dreams when really it's just bad habits that we don't correct and that becomes part of our normal shot process. It's not that we can't control it. It's that we've controlled it over and over again until it's now the norm. Just have to create a new good habit in place of the bad habit that we created. It takes conscious thought and effort. Nothing more complicated than that.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

A "bad habit" is a choice. TP is not a conscious choice.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

You're arguing semantics, which is where this entire thread got ugly. 
With any psychological condition, there are three questions:

1. How (or why) did it start?
(With TP it's usually a laxity or a a subtle sloppiness that goes unchecked, and escalates over time. That escalation becomes exacerbated by the ego (the need to perform well), which is where the confusion with "performance anxiety" comes from.) 

2. What are the symptoms?
(With TP they can be pretty varied in both manifestations and severity.)

3. What treatments have proven effective.?
(With TP, sometimes (OK usually), you treat the symptom and not the cause, which may be and may remain unknown, and frankly may be irrelevant in a lot of cases. The techniques center around behavior modification and/or distraction, aka short circuiting the short circuit. Again, similar to the treatment for performance anxiety.)

Oh yeah, people who have gotten past TP usually have a pretty good idea of what works, unfortunately, it's really what worked for them.

Or you can just keep arguing for the sake of arguing, don't know about you guys, but I'm loosing interest..

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> Would "undesirable short cut" by synonymous with "bad habit". I think a lot of people like to make TP out to be this sinister thing that worms its way into our subconscious like Freddy Krueger in our dreams when really it's just bad habits that we don't correct and that becomes part of our normal shot process. It's not that we can't control it. It's that we've controlled it over and over again until it's now the norm. Just have to create a new good habit in place of the bad habit that we created. It takes conscious thought and effort. Nothing more complicated than that.


Negative ghost rider. That's not it. Feel fortunate you've never had TP.


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## ctuai1 (Nov 4, 2020)

Having shot for about a year, just this week I'm finally got a handle on my target panic. Holy cow it really opens up the sport. I now have the time to regain my focus, become body aware and then relax into the shot. It's amazing how much better I'm shooting. I think the key oddly enough was increasing my distance from 20yds to 40yds. At 20yds I could snap shoot ok, but at 40yds forget it. Given little expectation to hit anything allowed me to focus on form especially pulling through an imaginary clicker and 1000 arrows later... voila.

With TP somewhat managed any advice on controlling for arc. I'm shooting 36# Bear Polar (1959), split finger, instinctive (according to str8 shooter diagram).

[Hmmm realize the last comment should probably be in a new thread]


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ctuai1 said:


> Having shot for about a year, just this week I'm finally got a handle on my target panic. Holy cow it really opens up the sport. I now have the time to regain my focus, become body aware and then relax into the shot. It's amazing how much better I'm shooting. I think the key oddly enough was increasing my distance from 20yds to 40yds. At 20yds I could snap shoot ok, but at 40yds forget it. Given little expectation to hit anything allowed me to focus on form especially pulling through an imaginary clicker and 1000 arrows later... voila.
> 
> With TP somewhat managed any advice on controlling for arc. I'm shooting 36# Bear Polar (1959), split finger, instinctive (according to str8 shooter diagram).
> 
> [Hmmm realize the last comment should probably be in a new thread]


There is an active traditional forum here. Good place to ask.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Negative ghost rider. That's not it. Feel fortunate you've never had TP.


I have had it but I knew it was really just bad habits and so I fixed them with new, good habits. I had it bad enough that I started using my thumb trigger release set so heavy that I couldn't make it fire without backing the tension screw out. The first several times my pin got near the middle, my whole body flinched like I had be shocked with electricity as I tried to punch the trigger. Bad habits. Not a mental problem. Draw and hold drills while I watched my pin float over the X transitioned to shooting ever 3rd or 4th time I drew the bow and the rest of the draws I was still just drawing and holding. Eventually the trigger of seeing the pin on the X didn't signal my brain to immediately hit the release and just like that, no more bad habit. I never called it TP though because I knew it wasn't a "panic" to begin with but by every standard I've seen on the subject, it was classic TP.

Like Viper said, TP almost always starts with sloppiness that goes unchecked and is exacerbated by ego and self-imposed performance standards. It would be a pretty rare case that emotional stress or anxiety caused the bad habit to happen in the first place.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> I have had it but I knew it was really just bad habits and so I fixed them with new, good habits. I had it bad enough that I started using my thumb trigger release set so heavy that I couldn't make it fire without backing the tension screw out. The first several times my pin got near the middle, my whole body flinched like I had be shocked with electricity as I tried to punch the trigger. Bad habits. Not a mental problem. Draw and hold drills while I watched my pin float over the X transitioned to shooting ever 3rd or 4th time I drew the bow and the rest of the draws I was still just drawing and holding. Eventually the trigger of seeing the pin on the X didn't signal my brain to immediately hit the release and just like that, no more bad habit. I never called it TP though because I knew it wasn't a "panic" to begin with but by every standard I've seen on the subject, it was classic TP.
> 
> Like Viper said, TP almost always starts with sloppiness that goes unchecked and is exacerbated by ego and self-imposed performance standards. It would be a pretty rare case that emotional stress or anxiety caused the bad habit to happen in the first place.


I pray you never really get it. If you ever do, you'll know it.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I pray you never really get it. If you ever do, you'll know it.


I thought I already had, like I explained. Everyone I talked to told me I had it and everything you read on here says that I had it. Guess you only really have it if you agree to have it and don't try to be rational about it in a discussion.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> I thought I already had, like I explained. Everyone I talked to told me I had it and everything you read on here says that I had it. Guess you only really have it if you agree to have it and don't try to be rational about it in a discussion.


If it was that easy for you to get through, I'm not sure you had it. Either way, you're fortunate.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Theres a type of TP where you cant bring yourself to put your sight on the target. This is not a lazy habit left run out of control. The is mental defense mechanism. Its the equivalent a flinch but its protecting neurons instead of the shoulder.

I suspect that many people who compulsively release early are having the same thing occur. 
And eventually the situational defense mechanism beomes habit - just like a flinch.

Thats not to say some people dont ingrain sloppy habits and creat some sort of feed back loop with anxiety when they try regain control the habit under pressure. 
But I dont think you can simply write off target panic as being a result of slopiness.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dartwick said:


> Theres a type of TP where you cant bring yourself to put your sight on the target. This is not a lazy habit left run out of control. The is mental defense mechanism. Its the equivalent a flinch but its protecting neurons instead of the shoulder.
> 
> I suspect that many people who compulsively release early are having the same thing occur.
> And eventually the situational defense mechanism beomes habit - just like a flinch.
> ...


This is what happened to me in the 80's shooting compound/fingers. I could not get the pin on the target and would release before it got there. Eventually I just sold my compound and got a hunting recurve and learned to shoot without a sight - removing that problem altogether. It wasn't until I tried to learn target barebow (consciously aiming) 15 years later that the issue slammed right back into my life. 15 years without TP and one day I decide to consciously aim with the tip of my arrow, and here comes my old friend. Un freaking believable.


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## Bugswest (Oct 20, 2020)

Draven Olary said:


> I think one path to TP is due to the attitude "Shooting the bow is simple. You look, draw and shoot what you look at". You buy the bow, you go out and "you look, draw, shoot ..." and the arrow is not landing where you want. You try again, and again, and again until the arrow goes where you want. But in this "get the arrow where you look at" your shot sequence is less than stellar and you are starting to chase the result instead doing the footwork by learning a shot sequence that will put the arrow where you want IF you execute it right. Under self-imposed "hitting where you want" pressure you chase the result and your brain will protect you from the "damn, I didn't hit again" at one point in time. This path is something usual for self-taught archers - all the clinics are teaching the archer a shot sequence and force them to follow it.


I agree with your post, as a self taught archer I have made all the mistakes according to all the teaching vids I have watched. Bow tuning, anchoring, release length, comfortable draw length, and the list goes on as our learning curve is improving/educated. And we are not going to not shoot that bow as we learn cuz' we love to shoot that bow....DIY dilemma.


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## jerrym (Mar 18, 2007)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> The inability to control every aspect of the shot process.


This!!!!!


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> If it was that easy for you to get through, I'm not sure you had it. Either way, you're fortunate.


Just because someone is able to work through something more easily than others doesn't mean they didn't have a problem and their experience shouldn't be marginalized for it. I've always been "strong of mind" and can easily break habits when I want to. I learned long ago that I am in control of my actions so there's no person or thing that causes me to do anything besides myself. It's a powerful mindset to live in because you're never a victim and can always improve your situation with a little bit of work. That said, it still took weeks of work to overcome the bad habit.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Hunts - 

You do have to be careful who you're disagreeing with, though. 
On the Internet, perception "trumps" reality. 

Like I said, manifestations and severity of TP are al over the map, and we do have to be careful distinguishing between anecdotal and empirical. 

Viper1 out.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Fear and panic are irrational responses and unfortunately I cannot relate to those things so understanding how much less why is beyond me. Don't get me wrong. I've had a case of buck fever as a young man and missed an easy shot but learning to control those nerves were a part of maturity and experience. I can't imagine getting the shakes and being unable to function as an adult.
That said my 62yo brother is afraid of the dark. To the point that he leaves the woods at sundown. Woods he has hunted for 40 years. Woods he knows like the back of his hand. I sit till dark, he waits for me in the truck.
I've never understood it and to be honest, I rib him about it now and then. But to him it's a very real issue he deals with.
I've seen grown men step out of the batters box in slow pitch softball because they were afraid the ball would hit them and swing wildly as they stepped back.
The human brain is a wonderful and complicated thing. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> Hunts -
> 
> Like I said, manifestations and severity of TP are al over the map, and we do have to be careful distinguishing between anecdotal and empirical.
> 
> Viper1 out.



Here most of the TP injured archers had access / info regarding the formal training and they got it by doing x, y, z. There are a lot of archers with TP who got it without any advice on how to shoot. In this case the personality traits are the root of TP on top of the lack of knowledge.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

D - 

Good info and doing x, y, z "might" help, but doesn't protect anyone from getting TP, panic attacks or performance anxiety. (In fact, I'd guess the exact opposite; I doubt a total moron would ever get TP  ) The only thing that does work is a good instructor/coach who can spot the early signs and stop it before it gets out of hand. I suppose an athlete who is very atuned to his body and brain might be able to pick up on it and fix it, but that goes against it's subtle nature. 

Are there certain personality types that are more prone to it than others? Sure, but that doesn't change the cause, progression or treatment. I think I said that a few pages ago. 

BTW - as an odd twist, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who believe they have TP (thanks again to the intraweb), when in fact, they just suck (the ones without the proper training) and are looking for an excuse. 

What started it can be all over the map, and that's why most of times treating the symptoms is the most expedient approach. 

Viper1 out.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> D -
> 
> Good info and doing x, y, z "might" help, but doesn't protect anyone from getting TP, panic attacks or performance anxiety. (In fact, I'd guess the exact opposite; I doubt a total moron would ever get TP  ) The only thing that does work is a good instructor/coach who can spot the early signs and stop it before it gets out of hand. I suppose an athlete who is very atuned to his body and brain might be able to pick up on it and fix it, but that goes against it's subtle nature.
> 
> ...


Well said. 

To reply to your previous quote and reply to my post........ I guess it's never TP to someone unless it affects you as bad or worse than them. Some people, like myself, refuse to get overly worked up about things. Especially since I know I'm the one making them happen or making them stop happening. I find that in archery and life in general, the ones that get overly worked up are more likely to believe they're not able to control what they're doing. I refuse to believe that because I've proven to myself over and over that I am. Some just haven't done that and can't understand how some of us can. That inability to understand and do it themselves turns to disbelief. After all, if they can't do it, it can't be done......right?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> D -
> 
> Good info and doing x, y, z "might" help, but doesn't protect anyone from getting TP, panic attacks or performance anxiety. (In fact, I'd guess the exact opposite; I doubt a total moron would ever get TP  ) The only thing that does work is a good instructor/coach who can spot the early signs and stop it before it gets out of hand. I suppose an athlete who is very atuned to his body and brain might be able to pick up on it and fix it, but that goes against it's subtle nature.
> 
> ...


That's true, but what I said is that without having a Coach who can intervene early, the "don't think, just shoot" has the potential to do a lot of damage if you are anxious, perfectionist, an emotive, short tempered person outside archery.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Hunts -

In a perfect world yes. There are some things we have control over and some we don't. The trick (IMHO) is to know, and not fight, the difference. And it may not be the same for any two people.

Some people can (and have) successfully lowered their blood pressure with life-style changes and bio-feed back, but most will need to take a pill. Both the cause and the degree factor in, as well as the make up of the person.

Target panic too can be controlled with intestinal fortitude - by some people. If it gets bad enough. or the person has the "wrong" psychological makeup, after a staged approach, they may need to "take the pill". It's not a one way thing.

D - 

Yup, that's the problem, again, knowing the difference and figuring out the best plan of attack.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> Well said.
> 
> To reply to your previous quote and reply to my post........ I guess it's never TP to someone unless it affects you as bad or worse than them. Some people, like myself, refuse to get overly worked up about things. Especially since I know I'm the one making them happen or making them stop happening. I find that in archery and life in general, the ones that get overly worked up are more likely to believe they're not able to control what they're doing. I refuse to believe that because I've proven to myself over and over that I am. Some just haven't done that and can't understand how some of us can. That inability to understand and do it themselves turns to disbelief. After all, if they can't do it, it can't be done......right?


You're getting pretty worked up right now. LOL


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> You're getting pretty worked up right now. LOL


Actually I'm not. You're just reading it that way. Which is to be expected from what I previously wrote.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> Actually I'm not. You're just reading it that way. Which is to be expected from what I previously wrote.


Nah, I'm just jerkin' your chain.


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## south dakota (Aug 4, 2007)

lucydad said:


> All,
> 
> I saw a NYT article comparing Simone Biles "twists" in her Olympic gymnastics to archery "target panic". Being new to archery, may I ask for your definition and experience of target panic?
> 
> ...



Knowing I will miss the target and or loose or damage my arrow before it leaves the bow. That is the 'oh ****' target panic moment I hate. Usually, I'm tired or not mentally wanting to shoot but think I should for some reason.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

south dakota said:


> Knowing I will miss the target and or loose or damage my arrow before it leaves the bow. That is the 'oh ****' target panic moment I hate. Usually, I'm tired or not mentally wanting to shoot but think I should for some reason.


I get that shooting at 40 and 50 yd bales- that oh s**** moment when you see your arrow sail over the bale into the tall grass behind and know you will be scratchin for some time to find it or not...but hey they make more arrows, more points, more fletches and winter is coming-- nice way to spend a winter afternoon makin up arrows-- it is just stuff, it can be replaced. So let that string slip thru your draw fingers, watch that arrow sail towards the target and know it will all be good one way or another-- winter is coming....


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## Mikekillion (Mar 17, 2021)

TP is no bueno.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

GCook said:


> Fear and panic are irrational responses and unfortunately I cannot relate to those things so understanding how much less why is beyond me. Don't get me wrong. I've had a case of buck fever as a young man and missed an easy shot but learning to control those nerves were a part of maturity and experience. I can't imagine getting the shakes and being unable to function as an adult.
> That said my 62yo brother is afraid of the dark. To the point that he leaves the woods at sundown. Woods he has hunted for 40 years. Woods he knows like the back of his hand. I sit till dark, he waits for me in the truck.
> I've never understood it and to be honest, I rib him about it now and then. But to him it's a very real issue he deals with.
> I've seen grown men step out of the batters box in slow pitch softball because they were afraid the ball would hit them and swing wildly as they stepped back.
> ...


I dont think Buck Fever is the same at all. In my experience when I was young and in others I have observed its a euphoria. An excitement that often drives poor choices and messes with perspective and eventually results shaking from the adrenaline(epinephrine.)

Anxiety is more closely linked to norepinephrine.


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