# Diversity in Olympic archery



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I started to hijack my own thread earlier, so I figured I'd repost the question here...

For many years now, it's been obvious to me and so many others that our sport (Olympic archery in particular) is not a very diverse one. A quick walk between the shooting line and tents at any outdoor nationals will tell you that much.

I think a part of it is that it's an expensive sport. I'm sure other expensive sports have the same problem. It's also a shooting sport, and likewise, I think other shooting sports have at least as much of a problem with diversity as archery has, if not more.

I've also learned in the past 10 years, that the question of diversity in the sport of Olympic archery, really makes some folks in the sport very uncomfortable... which tells me it's not only an area we can improve, but an area that's probably being consciously ignored. Obviously the question of diversity is going to make for a sometimes uncomfortable conversation. I get that. But isn't it time we had that conversation in archery, for the good of the sport in our country? Why wouldn't we want to be recruiting ALL the best talent we can to represent us internationally?

Maybe we are already. Are there examples of this out there we should be highlighting?

As a related question, have we had any minorities represent us at a major international archery competition? Ever?

Look, folks who know me well know that I'm about the least PC person on the planet. But this really isn't a matter of being PC to me. It's more a matter of making sure *everyone feels welcome* in the sport we all love, and that we're taking advantage of ALL the talent we have available to us to represent the U.S. in our sport.

What say you?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Lots of kids of all stripes have come through our JOAD program. That no one has made it to the highest level is indicative of how hard it is and how much dedication it takes to get to the top.

It is about opportunity, not diversity. The question should be, are we offering opportunity to a favored group over another? I don't believe this to be the case. Not from where we shoot arrows anyway.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

I can only speak for my own ( admittedly limited) experience at local SoCal ranges, but I look down the line and it's like the UN. I was actually thinking just the opposite... How cool it is that this sport transcends so many boundaries of ethnicity, culture and finances. Now, Los Angeles is a melting pot so it's not unusual, but I've never seen that sort of diversity in any sport.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

The JOAD program I'm with is pretty diverse in race and gender, which I think is very promising...so the issue, at least in our area, it may not be so much about people who start archery but about those who develop the interest in and who can afford the luxury of competing in archery, which is expensive and a niche sport.

I'd love to see some stats on diversity. And as much as I think the target archery _JOAD_ I'm with is diverse, I also that the trad archery community in California at clubs in my area and at trad shoots I've been to, which often reflect the hunting community, tend to be very white very male. Most of the women who are there are not on their own but as wives and girlfriends of more serious archers, and I'm not sure I've seen much of the reverse, where the woman is the more serious archer and her SO is the tag along. Still a fun community, but I'd like to see a broader base with more diversity of all kinds.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Remember that what you see at your club, in your community, in your country may skew your view of diversity in Olympic Archery. Local club versus the world of Olympic Archery. The sample versus the population.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

MickeyBisco said:


> I can only speak for my own ( admittedly limited) experience at local SoCal ranges, but I look down the line and it's like the UN. I was actually thinking just the opposite... How cool it is that this sport transcends so many boundaries of ethnicity, culture and finances. Now, Los Angeles is a melting pot so it's not unusual, but I've never seen that sort of diversity in any sport.


Mickey, SoCal is the only place I've seen where this is the case, and it's mostly one ethnicity from what I can tell (and not one that's poorly represented in the sport). But you're right it is VERY refreshing to see indeed.

Have you walked down the line at an Outdoor Nationals event though? Maybe the grass-roots level is becoming more diverse, but the more elite levels of our sport still have a LONG way to go. 

I'd love to see an accounting of the RA program, for example.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

TER said:


> Remember that what you see at your club, in your community, in your country may skew your view of diversity in Olympic Archery. Local club versus the world of Olympic Archery. The sample versus the population.



Agreed, hence my disclaimer. The whole is the sum of all of its parts, so even though it is a sample (and maybe not an accurate or complete sample), it _is_ a cross section. Local JOAD clubs and ranges are where archers congregate, so that's where the data exists. 

I'd imagine Los Angeles is more diverse than say, my home state of Idaho. This may be more based on the diversity of the community as a whole, not the exclusiveness of archery.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Mickey, SoCal is the only place I've seen where this is the case, and it's mostly one ethnicity from what I can tell (and not one that's poorly represented in the sport). But you're right it is VERY refreshing to see indeed.
> 
> Have you walked down the line at an Outdoor Nationals event though? Maybe the grass-roots level is becoming more diverse, but the more elite levels of our sport still have a LONG way to go.
> 
> I'd love to see an accounting of the RA program, for example.



John, 

My experience is very limited and only includes the cross-section of the few ranges I've shot in SoCal, so the elite level shoots are certainly something that I have no experience with. Beyond the obvious Caucasian and Korean archers at our local ranges, I've met Chinese, Japanese, Filipino and archers from darn near every country in South and central America ...there are Russians and Armenians, African Americans galore here as well! It's a big happy ( admittedly grassroots level) Crayola box. 


But I'd imagine we are the exception, not the rule.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't know if this "lack of diversity" is evident across the entirety of the sport and may be too broad of a generalization. This is the group of archers from Maryland who attended the 2012 NFAA outdoor nationals and as you can see from the picture, we're about as diverse as you can get. 

View attachment 1809623


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mickey, I'm thinking you're definitely the exception. Good for you guys!

TER, I've traveled all over the US in this sport in that past 10 years. I look at JOAD and Outdoor Nationals as somewhat of a measure of where we are on this issue, as those tend to be where most of our national teams come from, and are the visible "face" of the sport, as it were.

Montigre, unless my eyes deceive me, that's not exactly a snapshot of America there. But then, neither would my club in rural SE Texas be either...

Look, I'm sure there are plenty of isolated examples of diversity in our sport, and that's truly great. But I don't think it's my imagination that we have some room for improvement. Moreso than many other sports. 

Again, let's look at representation on international teams... examples please?

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

montigre said:


> I don't know if this "lack of diversity" is evident across the entirety of the sport and may be too broad of a generalization. This is the group of archers from Maryland who attended the 2012 NFAA outdoor nationals and as you can see from the picture, we're about as diverse as you can get.
> 
> View attachment 1809623


Definitely a lot more diversity in that photo than I've seen at a number of trad shoots I've been at, but it also still looks mostly white to me. On the other hand, your club may be far more diverse than the local community. I'm thinking it will really take stats to understand to understand this issue and how it fits in with different commodities and different levels of archery.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I started to hijack my own thread earlier, so I figured I'd repost the question here...
> 
> For many years now, it's been obvious to me and so many others that our sport (Olympic archery in particular) is not a very diverse one. A quick walk between the shooting line and tents at any outdoor nationals will tell you that much.
> 
> ...


I think that some people mistake the elitism in the sport for racism and exit the sport earlier than they should.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess it would be appropriate to look into USArchery's goals for increasing (or maintaining, if it's already there) diversity in our sport. I hope that we have those, right?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> I think that some people mistake the elitism in the sport for racism and exit the sport earlier than they should.


Ouch. 

Hmmm. Yea, well maybe. As I said, it could just be a function of expense, which is common to many sports.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Montigre, unless my eyes deceive me, that's not exactly a snapshot of America there. But then, neither would my club in rural SE Texas be either...John


John, according to the 2010 US census, the total US population still consisted of 72.4% caucasians. My photo not only exemplifies ethnic diversity, but also socio-ecconomic diversity. There are people who earn an income in the 7 figures standing beside others who had to borrow just to get to the shoot. So, it is a pretty close representation of a cross section of the current general (not regional) US population pool. 

Just curious; in your eyes, what should the photo "look like" to be considered diverse?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> 72.4% caucasians.


Huh?

Only way that could be is if all Hispanics were counted as "caucasian" which I doubt any of my Hispanic friends or relatives would appreciate.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I started to hijack my own thread earlier, so I figured I'd repost the question here...
> 
> For many years now, it's been obvious to me and so many others that our sport (Olympic archery in particular) is not a very diverse one. A quick walk between the shooting line and tents at any outdoor nationals will tell you that much.
> 
> ...


Give me a few more years. Most of my JOAD are minorities, African american, Filipino american, Korean amercian, chinese, etc. Even my own son is Filipino/chinese american. 

I have a number of kids that want to go as high as they can in the sport and they are showing the drive, determination and ability. Currently they are 9-12 ish, but several will start shooting Nationally next year. 

Also on a side note, i talked one of our adult compound shooters into shooting the SOCAL showdown this year. He loved it. He is also African american. 

I was happy he started competing and his great experience there tells me he was welcomed and accepted as any other archer. 

I think the explosion of archery in the last few years has brought in large numbers of kids of all walks of life. We just have to wait for them to age in to the elite playing field. 



Chris


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I'm getting uncomfortable with this thread, not because of diversity but because we are now talking about 'increasing diversity', which sounds like coercion.

If you increase the size of the sport, you'll get more people of all types involved.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Midway, it's a hard topic to discuss, I agree. So many points of view.

It's just my personal observation at national events and from participating on, and looking at national teams, is that we (target archers) don't exactly look like a cross-section of America, while so many other sports do. I am concerned that our apparent lack of diversity (whether perceived or real) is hurting the sport and more importantly, keeping potential archers from enjoying the sport we all love. 

Golf had this issue forever. They have taken proactive steps to deal with it. I'm just wondering if it's time we do as well. 

But first, I guess it's appropriate to size up the problem or even determine if a problem exists. Of course, there are plenty who will just want to say that "we don't have a problem..." and get on with things. Based on my observations, I'm not sure I could agree with that, but I haven't done the math either. However, this is a case where the math may not matter. If there is a perceived problem, then there is a problem. In other words, you don't justify the cost of a bridge based on the number of swimmers. There are a lot of folks who will look at the sport, and decide not to even try in the first place.

The second question, if we did determine that we do need to take steps to be more inclusive, is to ask if - because of the expensive nature of the sport of target archery - how much can we, or should we, even do about it?

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Huh?


Yeah, the census figures probably don't say "Caucasian" but rather "white". Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites are put in the same category by the US census. It is kind of confusing. The non-Hispanic whites nationwide are 63.7 % as opposed to the 72% combined figure. In California non-Hispanic whites are 40% which is why the MD archers group photo doesn't seem all that diverse to me, but is more diverse relative to the demographics of MD, which is 54.7% non-Hispanic white. Texas, 45.3% non-Hispanic whites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yup, I edited that post when I realized that 72% figure had to include Hispanics.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A thought just occurred to me along those lines. With the recent breakout success of team Mexico, could USArchery use that to promote the sport to the US Latino population? Makes sense to me. Esp. in places like Texas, AZ and California.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> A thought just occurred to me along those lines. With the recent breakout success of team Mexico, could USArchery use that to promote the sport to the US Latino population? Makes sense to me. Esp. in places like Texas, AZ and California.


I gotta say I'm pretty ignorant about how to sell archery specifically to the Latino population in CA, but the success of both US and Mexican Olympic archery can only be a good thing in that regard.

As for anybody, what in archery for them? Is it fun? Is it affordable? Is it accessible? Is it a community they'll enjoy hanging around with? Is the competition fun, inspiring, availible? Is it easy/hard/confusing to get into? How do you sell archery to anybody?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I think there is a problem when we say an organization should look a certain way. Instead, we should be open and welcoming to all and foster those who try the sport.

Golf helped its diversity issue with Tiger Woods, not Cal Peete, Lee Elder, or Charlie Sifford. So it may take archery a while to catch on with certain ethnic groups. But from what I've seen, it will be sooner rather than later that archery in the USA will have up and coming talent other than caucasian kids.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Midway, companies market to certain demographics to increase sales where they see opportunity as a standard business practice.

Organizations such as USArchery have a duty to serve all citizens, and should have a plan to market the sport to people who traditionally didn't see it as available to them. I'm not an archery "insider" like some, and don't know whether there is a plan in place for this within the industry or organization, or not. 

You're right that we may see a groundswell soon, but the status quo seems pretty well entrenched to me, at least for now.

However, without asking the questions and picking our heads up to look around every now and again, how will we know where we are?

Part of what influences my personal perception however, is probably the fact that I'm used to living in a pretty diverse part of the country, and when I travel to certain areas (not going to say where) - the participants in our major events (both national AND state) don't exactly line up with what I'm used to seeing back home. That's all.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John, good topic,Ive been involoved in several different sports including sporting clays and Competition pointing dog trials....the expense is the same in traveling...however with archery once you get there its much cheaper than some of the others.

With sporting clays id spend $125.00 in ammo in dog trials id easily spend $300.00 in entry fees and such....to me archery is much cheaper than other sports...I can shoot the same dozen arrows for at least a year...the bow if I would keep it would last forever basicly.


Dewayne


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I think there is a problem when we say an organization should look a certain way. Instead, we should be open and welcoming to all and foster those who try the sport.


I don't think that is what people are saying, per se, but rather that the archery elite in the US are not demographically representative of the diversity of the US, and all things being equal they probably would, so we should check out the situation and see if we are missing opportunities to include a greater cross section of the US in archery. And you may be right, it may already be in the pipe line, but if it isn't, maybe we'll want to see that it does to give everybody a chance, and to make archery a sport for the entire community.

And a few awkward facts to add into the mix, Utah is 80.4% non-Hispanic white, so even growing the sport with new facilities like the awesome new Easton SLC archery center won't necessarily increase the diversity of the sport. Nor in 84.7% non-Hispanic white South Dakota, where the NFAA/Easton Yankton facility is located (The NFAA moved from the more diverse state of California). Florida, where the Easton Newberry facility is located, is more diverse, but less so than Texas or California. So "growing" the sport will mean more diversity in absolute numbers, but not necessarily in proportion. It really depends on *how* you grow it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

vabowdog, we've debated here whether archery is an "expensive" sport or not, at great length. Of course there are more expensive sports. Of course. But saying archery is less expensive than another sport, by default, doesn't make it an inexpensive sport. Now, comparing it to other shooting sports, then tracking the demographic differences along those lines - that could teach us something because we would remove some of the potential bias due to the perception of shooting sports. Is that what you're saying? That archery is more affordable than other shooting sports (which I would certainly agree with) and therefore may have the potential to be more inclusive to people from all economic backgrounds? 

But let's not try to say archery is a cheap sport. I've run JOAD programs in rural areas in two states, for over 8 years now, and know countless other JOAD program leaders across this country. #1 reason we lose archers to participation beyond the club level is expense. What's worse is the #2 reason WE NEVER GET ARCHERS is expense. It breaks my heart to see one interested kid after the next have to deal with the fact that their parents just cannot afford competitive equipment for outdoor target archery. So they go play soccer, or basketball, or other school sports, instead.

Now, I'm talking JOAD here where they're expected to compete against the better archers statewide, and in the US as they progress. That's different than many other introductory programs, where the expenses are better mitigated.

But I don't want to derail this discussion with a debate on expense, except as it may relate to how that affects the issue of diversity in the sport. I think it's a factor, but I think there are other factors. The perception of shooting sports in the minority populations is probably a big factor. The fact that a lot of minorities cannot see anyone who looks like them on a U.S. Olympic archery team or World Championship team is probably a big factor. I'm sure there are many others. Access is another factor. Again, the sport of Golf has been actively addressing these factors to increase participation THROUGH increasing diversity in the sport. 

And that's how we need to see this. As increasing participation THROUGH increasing diversity.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I think you will find USA swimming far ahead in programs to address this issue. Their "make a splash" initiative is making inroads in youth drownings, particularly among African Americans. They also have a strong diversity outreach effort that is a core principle of their organization. In particular they are parlaying the success of Cullen Jones, African American Olympic medalist.


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## longshotbml (Oct 30, 2013)

John people are going to pursue activities in which they have exposure and opportunity. I live in suburban Detroit where I have to drive almost an hour to have my daughter participate in JOAD. I am a competitive firearms participant and coach so shooting sport is common for our family. Of course my daughter was draw to a bow! Back to the point. The kids of Detroit have much easier access to participate in Hockey than archery. I really don't know how other areas of the country are but in our area the archers come from families with hunting background and competitive shooting experience and typically those tend to be Caucasian. So until we solve the access issue I think American archery will continue as it has.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John people are going to pursue activities in which they have exposure and opportunity


While I agree that those are two important components that tend to "close the deal," the initial interest can often come from seeing someone like yourself, do something that fascinates you. 

Hence, Tom's example of what US Swimming is doing right now. 

If I were an African-American or Hispanic archer and showed up at our U.S. Outdoor Nationals, or even the OTC, I would feel very, very out of place I think. Nobody, regardless of ethnicity or income level, should EVER feel out of place at any of our events. Period.

Yes of course we can always point to the exception to the rule and say "see there!" but that's hardly a way to address the issue.

John


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> A thought just occurred to me along those lines. With the recent breakout success of team Mexico, could USArchery use that to promote the sport to the US Latino population? Makes sense to me. Esp. in places like Texas, AZ and California.


I love telling my wife and father in law about how good team Mexico is and how well they do at the world cups and the London Olympics. He gets amped. He even gets so amped, he wants me to open up my own 3d archery range lol

living in Southern California definately has its diversity on the shooting line. Most of the state shoots I've been too have been pretty diverse for the most part. The only time I would say there was a bit of us...only 3 asians (counting myself) at a huge event (Redding) was the only time i could count on 1 hand the amount of asians there lol and I also seen only 3 African Americans there as well. I guess 3d doesnt really tickle their pickle, but for me, there is no funner archery than 3d. But that is just my personal opinion.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tomah said:


> I love telling my wife and father in law about how good team Mexico is and how well they do at the world cups and the London Olympics. He gets amped. He even gets so amped, he wants me to open up my own 3d archery range lol


Exactly what I mean. The connection to Mexico and what happens down there is still VERY strong to many Texans. I'm sure the same is true in AZ and CA as well. We had/have an opportunity here, I think.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

so what exactly is the point here, there aren't enough non whites in archery in the US?


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Exactly what I mean. The connection to Mexico and what happens down there is still VERY strong to many Texans. I'm sure the same is true in AZ and CA as well. We had/have an opportunity here, I think.


I think it would be super super cool to have the US National team and the Mexican National team shooting at a grassroots event somewhere between the two countries promoting the sport. I do recall the Mexican National team practicing at the shop I shoot at. They were gearing up for the Ogden, Utah world cup event and were in the area. Matt and Gary Zumbo brought them by and it was really cool and refreshing to see them shooting there.


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

Dacer said:


> so what exactly is the point here, there aren't enough non whites in archery in the US?


I wouldnt say that, I would say that there arent as many competing regularly. Maybe it will just take time, I believe I seen a pretty mixed group coming out of the JDT program and also out of GRIV's ALC (which I think is an amazing place to learn archery) and the Arcus Tijuana archery club is ENORMOUS.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

tomah said:


> I wouldnt say that, I would say that there arent as many competing regularly. Maybe it will just take time, I believe I seen a pretty mixed group coming out of the JDT program.


I see this as a non issue. Diversity will happen on its own if it's going to happen. The majority of pro football players are African American - is that an issue. Not a lot of whites running the 100m either.


There is nothing preventing participation - as the sport grows in popularity the demographic sampling on the ametuer lvl will start to be reflective of the region, and country as a whole. 

If that will translate up to the demographics of the USAT - you never know. In some sports it does in some it doesn't.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Hmmm. Interesting thread. 

I can't see over time how this sport can stay as it is. 

Do you really think one ethnic group has greater skills than another? I don't, Korea proved it over the last 20+ years. 

In time I doubt you will even think differently.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Dacer said:


> I see this as a non issue. Diversity will happen on its own if it's going to happen. The majority of pro football players are African American - is that an issue. Not a lot of whites running the 100m either.
> 
> 
> There is nothing preventing participation - as the sport grows in popularity the demographic sampling on the ametuer lvl will start to be reflective of the region, and country as a whole.
> ...


You are missing the real point here. The two-man consensus, I'd call it the AT Tag-team, wants us to believe that US Archery, along with Easton and Hoyt, and GT of course, are equally responsible for all the suffering in the Universe. All this time I thought it was the Catholics. J/K of course, however "there very well may be" a pattern...


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> I see this as a non issue. Diversity will happen on its own if it's going to happen. The majority of pro football players are African American - is that an issue. Not a lot of whites running the 100m either.
> 
> 
> There is nothing preventing participation - as the sport grows in popularity the demographic sampling on the ametuer lvl will start to be reflective of the region, and country as a whole.
> ...


You're actually quite wrong. Ever heard of racial ideology? Just curious, do you know why the majority of NFL football players are African American? I'll give you a hint. Look at the figures of what states the large majority of African Americans come from. Not colleges where they played, their home states. HINT HINT, It's the 5 poorest states in the US


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Let me add, I'm almost done with my masters in athletic administration, and the best class I had (and ever for that matter) was called Equity and Access. Some really interesting information all about race and sports. There's some awesome power points Id be glad to share that would really open some eyes to see why things are the way they are. To the OP, I'm writing my masters thesis on this subject, and I'm sure I can provide you with all the answers you'd need, feel free to shoot me a pm. I'd be glad to post some stuff if anyone is interested?


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> TER, I've traveled all over the US in this sport in that past 10 years. I look at JOAD and Outdoor Nationals as somewhat of a measure of where we are on this issue, as those tend to be where most of our national teams come from, and are the visible "face" of the sport, as it were.


That's exactly the mistake in reasoning I was suggesting we should avoid. US Olympic Archery is not Olympic Archery, it's a part of Olympic archery. The USA is not the world, it's a part of the world. If you intended the thread to be about "Diversity in *US*Olympic Archery," okay, I see what you meant to say now. But the title and OP seemed to be about Olympic Archery, not limited to just one country. Please remember this in an international forum with members from all over the world.

Anyhow, when I've gone to tournaments in the US it was always overwhelmingly white middle class and upper middle class people and a healthy number of Asian people. I think it's because it does cost some money to buy archery equipment, join a club and travel to tournaments. You just need to make a certain amount of money to be able to afford to travel to tournaments. Archery is less expensive than many, maybe most, sports; but you still need to make half decent money to afford it in the USA. So I wonder what percentage of white middle class Americans participate in Olympic Archery compared to the percentage of Black or Hispanic middle class Americans? Are non-whites really underrepresented or does it just look that way because Olympic Archery is such a tiny sport that two non-whites at a State championship is actually an accurate representation of non-white middle class earners?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> You're actually quite wrong. Ever heard of racial ideology? Just curious, do you know why the majority of NFL football players are African American? I'll give you a hint. Look at the figures of what states the large majority of African Americans come from. Not colleges where they played, their home states. HINT HINT, It's the 5 poorest states in the US



So do you want to have affermitive action archery style? Not sure what you are trying to get at. 

You are saying that poor African Americans are are NFL players because thy come from poorer demographics? And other ethinicties just don't want to play professionally because what?

If you feel the need to say, "hint hint" please just state your evidence.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

jmann28 said:


> Let me add, I'm almost done with my masters in athletic administration, and the best class I had (and ever for that matter) was called Equity and Access. Some really interesting information all about race and sports. There's some awesome power points Id be glad to share that would really open some eyes to see why things are the way they are. To the OP, I'm writing my masters thesis on this subject, and I'm sure I can provide you with all the answers you'd need, feel free to shoot me a pm. I'd be glad to post some stuff if anyone is interested?


Well if you know the answers to the questions this thread raises why don't you just tell us?


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> So do you want to have affermitive action archery style? Not sure what you are trying to get at.
> 
> You are saying that poor African Americans are are NFL players because thy come from poorer demographics? And other ethinicties just don't want to play professionally because what?


Well affirmative action wouldn't even be applicable considering there isn't limited space in clubs and tournaments. That doesn't even make sense.

And in the briefest nutshell I can put it in, the sport of basketball and football mean a whole lot more to young African Americans in poor communities than it does whites. It's not that other ethnicities don't want it, it's that the African American community values the game more as an opportunity for economic benefit as opposed to whites. What's your email address? I'll send you this lecture, I think you'll enjoy it


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

TER said:


> Well if you know the answers to the questions this thread raises why don't you just tell us?


Hopefully this works, never uploaded a PowerPoint file before to a file sharing website.

Social Class and Sport Lecture.ppt

Some parts need the lecture to go along with it, but basically, AA's don't participate in a majority of sports because there isn't any money to create opportunities for them to do so in their mostly poor or lower socioeconomic communities. From an early age, kids are pushed towards sports that offer economic benefit. 

“Young people from upper-income households often have so many opportunities that they seldom see sports as high-stakes, career-related activities in their lives. For a young person with a car, nice clothes, money for college tuition, and good career contacts for the future, playing sports can be fun, but it’s not perceived as necessary for economic survival, gaining respect, or establishing an identity.” David Moore Ph.D University of Michigan


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Look, folks who know me well know that I'm about the least PC person on the planet. But this really isn't a matter of being PC to me. It's more a matter of making sure *everyone feels welcome* in the sport we all love, and that we're taking advantage of ALL the talent we have available to us to represent the U.S. in our sport.
> 
> What say you?


As far as representing the US at an international level, I don't know anything about how diverse that pool has been, historically. since I am a relatively new shooter, I do know that in the larger metropolitan cities, archery has a diverse following but the demographic tends to narrow the further you go out from the larger cities. that said, the folks i have met at shoots in the larger cities, in the suburbs, in the country and around the US have been nothing but welcoming. period. the community as a whole has been great and there has been no shortage of great fun for me thus far.

representation of the US on the world stage is something any aspiring archer would love to do, i think, but like the saying goes you can only show the person to the door, they have to walk through it. the trials and competing at a high level is not an easy -or cheap- thing to do. i would imagine if someone -minority or not- is willing to go for the chance to compete for the US, it all comes down to how well you put that arrow in the center of the target.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> You are missing the real point here. The two-man consensus, I'd call it the AT Tag-team, wants us to believe that US Archery, along with Easton and Hoyt, and GT of course, are equally responsible for all the suffering in the Universe. All this time I thought it was the Catholics. J/K of course, however "there very well may be" a pattern...


What an incredible, intelligent contribution by such an insightful member. Hey SP, grow a pair and fill out your profile so I at least know who to introduce myself to at Nationals next year. kay? 

I get so tired of cowards who throw daggers from the safety of their keyboard.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> That's exactly the mistake in reasoning I was suggesting we should avoid. US Olympic Archery is not Olympic Archery, it's a part of Olympic archery. The USA is not the world, it's a part of the world. If you intended the thread to be about "Diversity in USOlympic Archery," okay, I see what you meant to say now. But the title and OP seemed to be about Olympic Archery, not limited to just one country. Please remember this in an international forum with members from all over the world.


I'm struggling to understand how one could begin to believe that I meant Olympic archery worldwide, lacked diversity. I mean, by definition, wouldn't that be a highly diverse group if all nations were equally represented? Of course I meant here in the U.S.. Sorry for the assumption that it was obvious. No disrespect intended toward our international members.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> What an incredible, intelligent contribution by such an insightful member. Hey SP, grow a pair and fill out your profile so I at least know who to introduce myself to at Nationals next year. kay?
> 
> I get so tired of cowards who throw daggers from the safety of their keyboard.


As opposed to abusive internet bullies?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You would certainly be the expert there...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmann, we actually have the same issue in the wildlife profession. For better or worse, it's not an area where one goes to make a lot of money, and therefore many ethnicities are underrepresented because their culture tends to favor other professions like engineering, medical, chemistry, etc. 

I'm not suggesting any kind of affirmative action programs at all. On the contrary. The simple message that archery provides the ultimate level playing field for people of ALL backgrounds, should make the sport an easy sell. We just need to be responsible, and accountable, for making sure it's a priority within our programs.



> i would imagine if someone -minority or not- is willing to go for the chance to compete for the US, it all comes down to how well you put that arrow in the center of the target.


Exactly. This is one thing that makes this sport so great. That even a 34 year-old with a wife and 3 kids, a mortgage, full time job and no coach, can shoot their way onto an Olympic team if they dare to dream that big. At the end of the day, all that matters is where the arrows land. Not your ethnicity, your upbringing, who you know or how much money you have changes that fact.

It's a great selling point. It's our greatest tool toward achieving true diversity and having our sport be as open and welcoming to outsiders as those of us who enjoy it now, know it can be.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Apart from the monetary investment required to get into the sport... is there any kind of discrimination in the sport that is happening where people feel like they can't participate because of ethnicity? 

I don't belong to a club, have membership in any national body, or been around anyone, ever that shoots recurves muchness Olympic recurve ... so maybe there is and I'm not aware of it?

if not ... this seems like a complete non issue.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I have to say that Olympic recurve archery is populated by the most gracious, pleasant, accommodating, humble _(and I'm convinced that the humility is due to a recognition of all archers of how difficult and demanding this sport is to do well, and how much tenacity and thought and dedication one has to put into it, and how a macho or blustery attitude doesn't impress the target face one little whit, and so the people who are willing over time to submit themselves to the discipline of the technical rigors for the sport are by-and-large humble (or acquire humility), and in my experience humble people doing with passion what they love to do are very pleasant company)_ group of sportsmen I've ever been around (at least the Masters division, which is all I can really speak to from personal experience). I'm strongly confident that would be the experience of anyone who shows up and steps on the shooting line. But one HAS TO SHOW UP. And this is an open sport - not an invitation only sport. So if someone doesn't show up, that's not on me, that's on him or her.

I agree that the perfect fairness and perfect merit of the sport should be a huge selling/marketing point being made continually. In archery, you shoot on a perfectly level playing field. Archery doesn't care about your height, your weight, your gender, your nationality, your color, your religion, or your bank account. It only cares about your performance - you get what you earn ... If you shoot a 10, you deserved it; if you shoot a 3, you deserved that, too ... it's straightforward, no excuses - "the arrow is the truth". Archery teaches that you can only control yourself, and that - with a plan, preparation, execution, reflection, and tenacity - you can achieve greatly.

Promote that message, and those for whom that message has appeal will come of their own accord. 
But nothing is owed to anyone. Get a bow, put in your study and your practice, and SHOW UP. You'll be welcomed by fellow archers with open arms.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

In jest, I offer this side of the archery world...

How many Asian youth *compound* archers do you see out in the tournament world?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One. I only see one, Beast.  LOL.

Larry, of course you are correct with your points. However...


> But one HAS TO SHOW UP.


 for that to happen, most have to first feel welcome. 

Again, you don't determine the need for a bridge by counting the number of swimmers.

Active recruiting toward underrepresented populations would be one answer. 

Just saying "the events are open to anyone" isn't enough. That's like telling me I'm welcome to attend a performance at the Apollo theater anytime I want. While it may be technically true, in practice, it feels quite different.

The way to prevent people of any background from feeling that way about our sport, is to be proactive, and have a plan to prevent it before it happens.

Honestly, I don't see how anyone could be against a goal to actively recruit underrepresented participants to our sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

As another aside, I was thinking today how even something as seemingly natural and unplanned as Brady Ellison's shaggy, country boy appearance is, in a way, welcoming a new demographic to our sport.

In many areas of archery, Olympic archery is viewed as the arena of the elitist. To many, visions of uptight, wealthy, half-athletes with heavy trust funds are what arise when the term "Olympic archer" is used.

Well, I think Brady has done a great job of helping break that stereotype, whether he was aware of it or not. 

Sometimes, it's taking advantage of opportunities to highlight the diversity we DO have that's all that is needed. That, combined with the message that the target treats everyone equally, would be an effective campaign for growth in this area, I'd think.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> In jest, I offer this side of the archery world...
> 
> How many Asian youth *compound* archers do you see out in the tournament world?


Lots, since the 2014 Asian Games will feature compound for the first time, participation has really taken off in Asia. Philippines, Korea, Japan, HK, TPE and China especially. One Chinese prefecture team alone bought 200 high end compounds in one model in one order from a certain maker last year. Watch out for China and Korea, they are working at it. Hard.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

montigre said:


> I don't know if this "lack of diversity" is evident across the entirety of the sport and may be too broad of a generalization. This is the group of archers from Maryland who attended the 2012 NFAA outdoor nationals and as you can see from the picture, we're about as diverse as you can get.


Yes, taking it out of the confines of "Olympic Archery" it can get pretty interesting.

When I lived in Virginia, I was invited to attend an "International Round" shoot at a club in Maryland, just outside the border of Washington DC.

My usual demographic was completely reversed. I was one of only a handful of Caucasian, out of about 90 people there!


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

In SoCal, I'd say the major obstacles are Coaching and the disappearance of regular, competitive, JOAD shoots since Lloyd left. Once upon a time here, there was something going on, almost weekly. Not so much anymore. Without a healthy environment, discovery is difficult. It's not so hard to find a Soccer, Basketball, Softball etc. prodigy. There's camps, clinics and competitions everywhere, every day, for those sports.

It's takes Coaching Expertise to develop an elite athlete of any kind. There _is_ a difference between Coaching and Instruction. A stable, documented and accessible environment and path for Coaches and Parents is lacking. It seems, that by the time the current criteria becomes public and accessible, it then changes. If on a local level, you found and nurtured the talent, regardless of ethnic origin, there is the perception that Chula Vista isn't the most welcome environment. 

On that note, there is such a lack of education and exposure to the opportunities available with regards to Archery, I'm surprised we have ANY elite archers. To the non-enthusiast, it's not much more than a camp activity glamorized in Hollywood.

For an Olympic Sport, there is a conspicuous lack of Collegiate Support. USC (The Trojans), for example, has virtually no budget for Archery. It's more Club than Team. That's a significant statement when you consider USC's proud tradition of promoting its Scholar Atheletes and Olympic heritage.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> What an incredible, intelligent contribution by such an insightful member. Hey SP, grow a pair and fill out your profile so I at least know who to introduce myself to at Nationals next year. kay?
> 
> I get so tired of cowards who throw daggers from the safety of their keyboard.


Seriously? You want to know which way I zip my jeans? 

You will be reminded that you brought up the profile business with me before. I explained my reasons then (btw, please note that I agree totally with Warbow on this topic), and your response to me at that time was “Fair enough”. It still is. Also recall at that time that I suggested to anyone who really gives a flip that they should feel free to PM me and get acquainted. I still do.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

jmann28 said:


> Hopefully this works, never uploaded a PowerPoint file before to a file sharing website.
> 
> Social Class and Sport Lecture.ppt
> 
> ...


Thanks for the very interesting document. With some interpretation, it is applicable to almost all countries and to Italy, too, if you change "football" to "soccer" and African Americans to South Italy inhabitants. At present archery is growing in Italy at double rate in northern regions in relationship to southern ones. 
Appied to Africa continent as a whole country, clearly explains why archery is developping in North countries like Algeria, Morocco and Egypt and faces much more troubles in center poorer countries but have some chanses in Ivory Coast and Center Africa. 
Definitely Archery, the archery we are from, is not a cheap sport and when we deal with new people we have to keep this in mind to get new members.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Certainly does, social class and sport is an issue globally not just in the US. 
So, let me ask this to anyone who would know, how many archery clubs are in or around inner cities? Every club and range I've ever seen is far off into 'white country'. Do you think kids in lower socioeconomic classes have the ability to get equipment and travel to the suburbs, pay a membership fee, and for coaching?? There's your answer. It's much easier to just play the few sports that schools offer, like football and basketball. 
The reason you see sports today with the participation numbers by race that you do is directly related to opportunities for them at the grass roots and youth level. Look at the mlb with 6% , college softball with 5%, college volleyball with 9%, golf, swimming, every single winter sport. The list goes on and on.

While I'm not saying anyone or any race is excluding AA's or other races specifically on purpose, if they don't have any opportunities they can't try it. Until some governing bodies in archery find a way to introduce this to lower socioeconomic classes, it's going to be vanilla valley. Which most likely will never happen as it seems money is already an issue for getting things done as is.


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

jmann28 said:


> Certainly does, social class and sport is an issue globally not just in the US.
> So, let me ask this to anyone who would know, how many archery clubs are in or around inner cities? Every club and range I've ever seen is far off into 'white country'. Do you think kids in lower socioeconomic classes have the ability to get equipment and travel to the suburbs, pay a membership fee, and for coaching?? There's your answer. It's much easier to just play the few sports that schools offer, like football and basketball.
> The reason you see sports today with the participation numbers by race that you do is directly related to opportunities for them at the grass roots and youth level. Look at the mlb with 6% , college softball with 5%, college volleyball with 9%, golf, swimming, every single winter sport. The list goes on and on.
> 
> While I'm not saying anyone or any race is excluding AA's or other races specifically on purpose, if they don't have any opportunities they can't try it. Until some governing bodies in archery find a way to introduce this to lower socioeconomic classes, it's going to be vanilla valley. Which most likely will never happen as it seems money is already an issue for getting things done as is.


I had an interest in archery when I was growing up; however, I lived in Brooklyn, and had no exposure or understanding of how to pursue it. It was not until I moved out of the city that I began to find ways to participate in the sport. Perhaps there where opportunities of which I was unaware, but if there were, they were not well known and marketed. The clubs I have gone to, and the 3d shoots I have been on have some diversity, and in some way it does reflect the local demographic. 

If US Archery wants to reach a more diverse population start offering it in city public schools. Provide grants and other opportunities for schools to fund programs, develop city interscholastic leagues.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

alaz said:


> I had an interest in archery when I was growing up; however, I lived in Brooklyn, and had no exposure or understanding of how to pursue it. It was not until I moved out of the city that I began to find ways to participate in the sport. Perhaps there where opportunities of which I was unaware, but if there were, they were not well known and marketed. The clubs I have gone to, and the 3d shoots I have been on have some diversity, and in some way it does reflect the local demographic.
> 
> If US Archery wants to reach a more diverse population start offering it in city public schools. Provide grants and other opportunities for schools to fund programs, develop city interscholastic leagues.


Precisely. Go to any elementary school in any lower SES community, big city or not, and what two sports are available for boys to play that are paid by for the school system? Flag football and basketball. That's it. And for girls? Basketball. It's not until MAYBE junior high that more options open up, and usually not until high school where it becomes more open. The bottom line is $$$.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Now there's also the subject of parents pushing their kids into certain sports because a) that's just 'what you play' and b) potential economic benefit long term. Now, not saying every minority parent thinks they need to start think professional sports at the age of 5, BUT, to put it in context, would you rather your child get a degree in business, or a degree in art? What has a better future statistically in terms of careers and monetary gain? 

Another interesting subject is how the parents teach their sons how to act. Look at team photos of football teams, from elementary to junior high, what main difference will you see? In general, white middle class kids have smiles, others don't. They're taught to look 'tough'. It's actually quite disturbing sometimes. My university did a study on the school ID photos of all athletes. Not team or sport photos, just the school id's that few see. The AA's were overwhelmingly depicted themselves as angry/tough while others had smiles. It's deep rooted cultural and racial ideology based on generations of the same song and dance.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few comments.

1) the Phoenix metroplex area has two large clubs that draw and sit in the inner cities. One is based in Tempe, and exclusively targets and works with underprivileged kids.

The other is in Glendale and also has a decent amount of underprivileged kids that takes lessons and uses the shop bows. This is the program I used to work for, so I'm definitely familiar with the demographic. 

2) getting Archery in schools will be very difficult, specifically in public schools. As a former elected school board member, I can say that it's almost impossible to get archery back into the public schools system. In fact, in Arizona, it was 25 years ago when we took it out - I know that for a fact because I was in high school when we took archery out of the schools.

Why? School districts treated bows as weapons. And it hasn't changed after all these years.

Outside of more politically conservative schools in certain areas in the U.S., NASP has had its biggest success in charter school systems. So has the OAS program.

3) regarding Asians and compound, in the United States, I'm only aware of one compound male and three female compound shooters of direct Asian descent that consistently compete on a national level. The male is Spencer Yee, the females are Judy Zhou, Kit Flick, and Sashiko Powell. That's not a lot of Asian American compound shooters compared to recurve. And I may be missing someone, but if so, I haven't seen them in a lot of National shoots.

-Steve


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> A few comments.
> 
> 1) the Phoenix metroplex area has two large clubs that draw and sit in the inner cities. One is based in Tempe, and exclusively targets and works with underprivileged kids.
> 
> ...


Correct. Good to see there are some programs specifically geared towards lower SES communities. But, with that said it obviously takes more than a few clubs. Unless archery becomes seen as a sport and not using weaponry (especially in today's society) it's never going to be diverse as it's the school systems that will be the main medium for youth. 

With that said, shall we go deeper into sports and public schools regardless of SES? Did you know the United States is the ONLY country in the world that has high school sports? Other countries have intramural programs or city/community based teams or travel based competition like AAU, ASA, Gus Macker etc. The issues that are prevalent with our system that has High School sports teams is what other countries don't have. Other countries education systems are better (our test scores are embarrassing for the 'Greatest Country in the World'), they have less cheating and bullying, less elitism...the list goes on. I have a few more powerpoint presentations I'll post for those who are interested. 

I'll bet you within 50 years, we'll be transitioning to a system like the rest of the world.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Here's another interesting one! Needless to say, the conversations that took place during these lectures were very uncomfortable as there are many races and ethnicities represented in our class. 

Race and Ethnicity in Sport.pptx


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> participation has really taken off in Asia. Philippines, Korea, Japan, HK, TPE and China especially.


 



> regarding Asians and compound, in the United States,


Yea, I was pretty sure that was the question you were asking... LOL.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

jmann28 said:


> Correct. Good to see there are some programs specifically geared towards lower SES communities. But, with that said it obviously takes more than a few clubs. Unless archery becomes seen as a sport and not using weaponry (especially in today's society) it's never going to be diverse as it's the school systems that will be the main medium for youth.
> 
> With that said, shall we go deeper into sports and public schools regardless of SES? Did you know the United States is the ONLY country in the world that has high school sports? Other countries have intramural programs or city/community based teams or travel based competition like AAU, ASA, Gus Macker etc. The issues that are prevalent with our system that has High School sports teams is what other countries don't have. Other countries education systems are better (our test scores are embarrassing for the 'Greatest Country in the World'), they have less cheating and bullying, less elitism...the list goes on. I have a few more powerpoint presentations I'll post for those who are interested.
> 
> I'll bet you within 50 years, we'll be transitioning to a system like the rest of the world.


The problem is that all sports is a representation of war in some way, shape, or form. Archery hasn't evolved enough to where it's not directly connotating it's original roots of eliminating your enemy at a distance using direct and indirect fire.

The issue with sports for some who are more sensitive is that in all competitive sports, there is a distinct winner and loser. More so in shooting sports than anything else. Some people don't like that brutal Darwinian heritage, so there are attempts to change it. And when you can't change it, it gets defunded.

In some extreme ideologies being pushed by some school policy makers, sports funding gets diluted so monies can be freed up for other programs. 

Throwing money at a problem seems to be a common trait. In a lot of cases, it just plain doesn't work...except in sports. 

With regards to the Powerpoints, put them up! The more references available, the better!


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

limbwalker, please look through both of the powerpoints and tell me your thoughts? You seem to be quite involved in youth archery


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Beastmaster said:


> The problem is that all sports is a representation of war in some way, shape, or form. Archery hasn't evolved enough to where it's not directly connotating it's original roots of eliminating your enemy at a distance using direct and indirect fire.
> 
> The issue with sports for some who are more sensitive is that in all competitive sports, there is a distinct winner and loser. More so in shooting sports than anything else. Some people don't like that brutal Darwinian heritage, so there are attempts to change it. And when you can't change it, it gets defunded.
> 
> ...


Well, at the low-level essence of archery ... we are training with weapons.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, I was pretty sure that was the question you were asking... LOL.


My fault for not being more specific.

Deviating slightly, I am extremely worried about the development of youth in compound here in the United States. We are seeing history repeat itself. I fear that the United States will lose dominance in compound, just like how we lost dominance in recurve in the past.

Also - Using Spencer, his age group, and peers as an example, a huge proportion of kids he used to shoot with have turned away from compound towards recurve. While Spencer has stayed the course in compound, a lot of his competitors and friends have migrated away. I find that interesting. The allure of recurve and the potential for shooting a tournament that occurs every 4 years seems to be too great.


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

John just my observation, there is so many reasons I shoot a recurve, one is the people are usually kind, helpful, generous, honestly they can't be beat. From someone who is entering their first big shoot to someone who has shot in the Olympics, from local US, to Europe and other many countries. 
This is from longbow to bare bow to full decked out FITTA outfit. 

What bothers me like hiker Dave mentioned the "pro elitism" some think they are and think their better than the guy who is shooting their first big shoot... 
That right there is a HUGE PROBLEM in archery. 
Speaking from first hand experience.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jmann28 said:


> Certainly does, social class and sport is an issue globally not just in the US.
> So, let me ask this to anyone who would know, how many archery clubs are in or around inner cities? Every club and range I've ever seen is far off into 'white country'. Do you think kids in lower socioeconomic classes have the ability to get equipment and travel to the suburbs, pay a membership fee, and for coaching?? There's your answer. It's much easier to just play the few sports that schools offer, like football and basketball.
> The reason you see sports today with the participation numbers by race that you do is directly related to opportunities for them at the grass roots and youth level. Look at the mlb with 6% , college softball with 5%, college volleyball with 9%, golf, swimming, every single winter sport. The list goes on and on.
> 
> While I'm not saying anyone or any race is excluding AA's or other races specifically on purpose, if they don't have any opportunities they can't try it. Until some governing bodies in archery find a way to introduce this to lower socioeconomic classes, it's going to be vanilla valley. Which most likely will never happen as it seems money is already an issue for getting things done as is.


Just to answer your question - 
I've only 'seen' two archery clubs in Oklahoma (there are plenty more, but I've only seen personally two of them), and neither was in that iconic strawman wealthy white suburb that serves your narrative. One of the clubs, in OKC, is a GREAT facility, but is located in an area where I was cautioned 'don't leave stuff of value in your car', and the other is the small range/club that I'm fitting out right now in my business warehouse, which has more illegals living in the neighborhood than it does citizens - it ain't in the wealthy suburbs.

Anecdote - just last night I was at an area school tryout for a school archery team (NASP) for 5th, 6th, 7th grades. This is a school that is just a decent area school (it's not Gross Pointe or Gold Coast) and well represented by most ethnic and racial groups. School-provided Genesis bows. No equipment needed on the part of the students. Probably about 100 kids were there to try out ... I didn't see any black kids, I didn't see any Hispanic kids. All white kids, with a majority of them girls. Make of that what you will. But the opportunity was extended equally on the part of the school system to all students. Some chose to investigate the opportunity, some didn't.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

lksseven said:


> Just to answer your question -
> I've only 'seen' two archery clubs in Oklahoma (there are plenty more, but I've only seen personally two of them), and neither was in that iconic strawman wealthy white suburb that serves your narrative. One of the clubs, in OKC, is a GREAT facility, but is located in an area where I was cautioned 'don't leave stuff of value in your car', and the other is the small range/club that I'm fitting out right now in my business warehouse, which has more illegals living in the neighborhood than it does citizens - it ain't in the wealthy suburbs.
> 
> Anecdote - just last night I was at an area school tryout for a school archery team (NASP) for 5th, 6th, 7th grades. This is a school that is just a decent area school (it's not Gross Pointe or Gold Coast) and well represented by most ethnic and racial groups. School-provided Genesis bows. No equipment needed on the part of the students. Probably about 100 kids were there to try out ... I didn't see any black kids, I didn't see any Hispanic kids. All white kids, with a majority of them girls. Make of that what you will. But the opportunity was extended equally on the part of the school system to all students. Some chose to investigate the opportunity, some didn't.


Nobody said all whites have lots of money to spend on their kids / selves to participate in whatever sport they want, but the statistical data doesn't lie. Whites in general have a far greater monetary base to seek far more opportunities in a variety of sports. That's the realistic fact.

And I regards to those minorities not choosing to investigate the opportunity, that a direct effect of racial ideology the information I shared goes into. It's the parents responsibility to offer kids the ideas of new sports.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jmann,

"“Young people from upper-income households often have so many opportunities that they seldom see sports as high-stakes, career-related activities in their lives. For a young person with a car, nice clothes, money for college tuition, and good career contacts for the future, playing sports can be fun, but it’s not perceived as necessary for economic survival, gaining respect, or establishing an identity.” David Moore Ph.D University of Michigan"

Regarding the iconic young person described above - I have yet to met a single person involved in archery who fits that bill here in Oklahoma ... at least to the extent that I can tell it or not. Most of the young people I know/see who are active, pursuing archers are having those efforts supported by parents who are trying to figure out every month where they can cut out this or that from their family budgets (a new pair of pants for him, a new whatever for the mom, one less dinner out each week) in order to support this activity for the child. 

Again, make of that what you will.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, it's like a lot of open programs. IF we want change (and I'm not convinced we do as an archery community) then we have to actively recruit, period. Merely making events "open" is not enough. Sure, over time, eventually diversity will increase as a function of increased diversity overall. But if we really want the sport of archery to be as inclusive as it should be, then we need to be proactive and go out and recruit more diverse participants. 

Just because a few people who already like to swim, choose to cross the river (even though the opportunity is available to everyone) it doesn't mean thousands more wouldn't use a bridge. 

We need to build that bridge IMO.

So, I haven't done a thorough review, but offhand, does anyone know if - other than Joe Thornton in '65 - the U.S. has been represented by a minority at either the Olympics or World Championships? My memory isn't always the best, but I can't think of anyone, male or female.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmann, when I get time I'll give it a look.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

- Market/communicate to everyone the inherent benefits of archery

- Make sure we're communicating/promoting that the community of target archers is a completely welcoming environment (at least the adults - I'm sure there is lots of drama/cliques/b.s. that goes on in some of the younger archer circles ... but that's true of any subject matter, isn't it?)

- The big archery corporations/orgs should focus - as pointed out several times in this thread - on grassroots education and acceptance and encouragement of archery in the schools (this is KEY)

- And, then, who shows up is who shows up. As >gt> pointed out earlier somewhere, "horses" and "water" come to mind.

(and I had to laugh about your vivid description of the stereotype of the "Olympic archer" being a wealthy, white, half-athlete trustfunder ... that's exactly how golfers used to be thought of, isn't it? And, I guess, rowers ("crew"), too, right? )


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

lksseven said:


> jmann,
> 
> "“Young people from upper-income households often have so many opportunities that they seldom see sports as high-stakes, career-related activities in their lives. For a young person with a car, nice clothes, money for college tuition, and good career contacts for the future, playing sports can be fun, but it’s not perceived as necessary for economic survival, gaining respect, or establishing an identity.” David Moore Ph.D University of Michigan"
> 
> ...


So then, those parents do or don't make enough money to make it happen then? Albeit they're struggling, but it's more support than those in lower SES families can afford. Is it not? With that said, do you not understand what a small microcosm your club is within the overall picture? That quote is over ALL sports and activities within the United States, not just archery in your club. 

You and 4 buddies go hunting in x state on so and so's property for 1 day. You see deer every hour and your 4 buddies don't see 1 between them all. Are they to think there isn't any deer there and the property is a waste of time and money?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Larry, it's like a lot of open programs. IF we want change (and I'm not convinced we do as an archery community) then we have to actively recruit, period. Merely making events "open" is not enough. Sure, over time, eventually diversity will increase as a function of increased diversity overall. But if we really want the sport of archery to be as inclusive as it should be, then we need to be proactive and go out and recruit more diverse participants.
> 
> Just because a few people who already like to swim, choose to cross the river (even though the opportunity is available to everyone) it doesn't mean thousands more wouldn't use a bridge.
> 
> ...


The sport - any sport - should make sure that the sport is merit based and open to all who wish to participate, and then actively promote/communicate those facts to everyone. But potential participants (regardless of background) also have a responsibility ... to ACT - to SHOW UP and submit themselves to the discipline and rigors of the activity/pursuit. "Participants failing to ACT and ENGAGE" isn't on the shoulders of the sport in question.

Here's one of my favorite stereotypes - Asian kids in school show up 5 minutes before class, arrange their books and notepad, and at the bell have their eyes on the teacher and their mechanical pencil 'at the ready'. That's cultural. That this isn't also a stereotype of black kids or white kids or Hispanic kids isn't the fault of the schools, and isn't about monied disparity.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I think there is another issue to consider. The white majority is diminishing in the US, and non-Hispanic whites are already a minority in a number of states, including mine. If we want archery to remain popular in the US, we need to continue expand it to a broader base, so archery will be popular with people of many races and ethnicities. Diversity in archery is a good idea for many reasons, not just for being "PC" - it's the long term self-interest of target archery in the US. If we are just content to say "well, not being interested, that's on them" then we are being lazy, and ignoring the future of archery. That's seeing diversity as some sort of drudge rather than a big marketing opportunity for the long term success of the sport.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

lksseven said:


> The sport - any sport - should make sure that the sport is merit based and open to all who wish to participate, and then actively promote/communicate those facts to everyone. But potential participants (regardless of background) also have a responsibility ... to ACT - to SHOW UP and submit themselves to the discipline and rigors of the activity/pursuit. "Participants failing to ACT and ENGAGE" isn't on the shoulders of the sport in question.
> 
> Here's one of my favorite stereotypes - Asian kids in school show up 5 minutes before class, arrange their books and notepad, and at the bell have their eyes on the teacher and their mechanical pencil 'at the ready'. That's cultural. That this isn't also a stereotype of black kids or white kids or Hispanic kids isn't the fault of the schools, and isn't about monied disparity.


And how are these kids supposed to act and show up if their parents don't have the ability to do it? Kids can't drive themselves, pay for their equipment, and pay for dues and coaching. Theirs kids! How realistic do you think it is, regardless of the sport, for a kid in a lower SES family to get him/herself to a facility that has the sport he/she is interested in?? 

Why go through all the trouble of trying to find time and money to get my kid to archery that's 45mins to an hour and away when he can play basketball down at the school? That's what the parent mentality is. Kids are going to have fun playing any sport they can enjoy with friends. You can't expect kids to get themselves to a club and pay for it can you?????? Do you not understand the issue is with the parents not the kids. Did you look through the power points?


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

Social Economic issues don't change the fact that Archery has an uninteresting presentation. If it were more interesting, _*and*_ there was a perception of opportunity attached, the diversity would grow. 

The current swell in participation is largely based on Hollywood (that's one reason why it's so young Girl based). Girls see it as cool. Rambo did similar for Boys and Young Men.

At the inner-city driving ranges, Happy Gilmore brought more kids in, than Tiger. The ones that remained interested, then discovered Tiger and the other more achievable benefits.

Getting diversity to the Range is just the beginning. How to sustain interest is the crux.

The Horse needs water, nobody needs Archery.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

An interesting experience I had in inner city Houston a couple of years back. The ATA came into the Houston parks and recreation department to introduce archery as an opportunity for inner city kids (Coach Falks was there to do the level 1 and 2) I was invited to represent the JOAD opportunity for these kids. Texas Parks and Wildlife were there too. We had a great two days. I have to say that I was very nervous traveling to and from the venue as one of only a few Caucasians in the area. The venue had scores of pictures of Clyde Drexler, Akeem Olajawon and the others from the Phi Slamma Jamma basketball era. During a break in the practical shooting there were two African American kids who there playing basketball but kept sneaking over to see us shooting bows. I used the opportunity to demonstrate how steep the archery learning curve is and took the two boys and taught them how to shoot a bow in just a few minutes. The experiment went well and not only were the kids thrilled but the soon to be instructors were amazed at how quickly the kids got it. 

Fast forward nine months later and Rick Stonebraker and I were invited to watch the Houston City Parks archery championships. What I saw made me want to cry. In the time between roll out and the "championships" a dedicated group of instructors had gone around the city of Houston to the scores of parks facilities introducing and teaching archery. They had five bows and targets and an appropriate number of arrows for five bows. Everyday was a different facility. The championships consisted of the best 25 archers that had qualified to represent their facilities and regions of the city. The same five bows were used. How did they do it? Imagine five rows of five chairs with the five bows on the shooting line. Every child got one chance to shoot five arrows and have those arrows scored. After the first group of five archers shot their arrows, they went to the end of the line and with the precision of a military formation, the other twenty archers moved forward one seat. This was repeated until all 25 archers had shot five arrows and that was the championships. One other thing that was remarkable was there was peer and spectator style points for the manner you pulled your arrows and inserted it into the ground quiver. It was awesome. Rick and I were asked to say a few words as the "dignitaries" validating their archery experiences. We were humbled.

I asked several questions: why doesn't everyone have their own bow? "We don't have anymore." Why don't they shoot anymore arrows? "This is a school night, traffic is terrible and the parents have to get to work early in the morning." Why then do it on a school night? "Only night we can get the venue with all the other activities that go on here and the only time parents can come with work schedules."

Everyone had a blast. The kids considered themselves archers. The parents and other family that were there took pride in the participation of their archers. Rick and I saw that archery is so, so much more than Olympic medals.

This was one of the hardest archery experiences I have had because I felt so overwhelmed and helpless. My message: the customers are there and you can make a difference. But, it is uncomfortable at times and you can not even imagine some of the baggage these kids have. It is a paradigm shift and forces you to confront some of your most basic beliefs. It also helps you realize the most fundamental of issues: the human element. USA Archery and the ATA would do well to have a more concerted outreach effort for diversity, not because it will create more members, not because it will sell more bows, but because it is the right thing to do.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

So the basis of this thread is that we need to get minorities involved in archery - because for some reason its a 'white' sport. 

Honestly i think that has nothing to do with it. I didn't even know about this huge world of archery until about 19 months ago when i decided I was going to buy a wood riser to play with in my back yard. I liked it and started trying to find out more, and a whole world opened up. 

I had never hear of the NAA, 3-d, FITA, USArchery, didn't even know there were national or regional competition, JOAD - never heard of any of it. I come from a upper middle class family, socioeconomic status and my ethnicity had nothing to do with me not knowing about archery. Its has everything to do with the fact that archery for at least in my lifetime has been an obscure niche sport that was spread by word of mouth. 

If archery becomes a mainstream recreational sport - then i don't think we will have to worry about diversity. Local clubs will be made up of the local demographic just like any of the other big sports; baseball, basketball, soccer, football ... and so on.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> So the basis of this thread is that we need to get minorities involved in archery - because for some reason its a 'white' sport.
> 
> Honestly i think that has nothing to do with it. I didn't even know about this huge world of archery until about 19 months ago when i decided I was going to buy a wood riser to play with in my back yard. I liked it and started trying to find out more, and a whole world opened up.
> 
> ...


So then, in regards to mainstream recreational sports, how do you account for a lack of minorities in the following...

Baseball
Softball
Golf
Tennis
Volleyball
Soccer
Wrestling
Hockey
Lacrosse
Bowling
EVERT winter Olympic sport 

These have been around quite a while, and general US demographics aren't represented by any stretch of the imagination here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well said Tom. It is the right thing to do, in addition to the other benefits.

Our sport is currently enjoying one more resurgence in a long line of them. We had interest after Robin Hood, with Kevin Costner. We had interest after the 96 Olympics and Geena Davis, we had interest after Lord of the Rings and Legolas, we have interest now. 

We've never demonstrated an ability to maintain that interest. That tells me the sport, whether we want to admit it or not, may be cool but it isn't current. Like something you'd read about in history class and think "that's cool" but then not ever think about again. I mean, we all love a ren fair, right? But how many of us want to go every week? It's cool, but not current.

I listened to a great discussion on this very topic this morning on ESPN's "Mike and Mike" show. They were discussing how the NFL "got it" and was staying current and attracting new viewers, even at the risk of having the traditionalists switch the TV off. They talked about how baseball, boxing and horse racing used to be the "big 3" sports in the 50's - 70's, but they all stayed loyal to the traditionalists and as a result, have lost market share. 

The sport of archery needs an update. And actively recruiting and inviting a more diverse participant base is one of the updates it needs.



> "Participants failing to ACT and ENGAGE" isn't on the shoulders of the sport in question.


You know Larry, I used that argument for many years in the wildlife conservation business. I would say "why are we being held accountable for the college's failure to recruit minorities?"

Eventually, I saw the impact that even just a few minority leaders in the organization could have on shaping the diversity of the organization, and changing the culture so that we better represented the people we serve, and were positioned well, long term, to continue our mission.

That's one of the things that concerns me. In addition to Tom's point that it's simply the right thing to do, it's also the right thing to do for our sport. Because without it, we are going to become increasingly less relevant compared to other sports.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Coodster said:


> John just my observation, there is so many reasons I shoot a recurve, one is the people are usually kind, helpful, generous, honestly they can't be beat. From someone who is entering their first big shoot to someone who has shot in the Olympics, from local US, to Europe and other many countries.
> This is from longbow to bare bow to full decked out FITTA outfit.
> 
> What bothers me like hiker Dave mentioned the "pro elitism" some think they are and think their better than the guy who is shooting their first big shoot...
> ...


Agreed. One thing that appeals to many about shooting recurve is that generally, there are few egos to have to deal with in the sport. Nobody shoots a recurve to get wealthy, or to become famous, period. It's even more true in barebow. We do it for the love of shooting the bow and for the great fellowship we all enjoy. 

Sorry you had to experience the elitism. I felt it too when I first started. 99% of the archers were incredibly helpful and welcoming. But there's always that 1% that want to keep the sport out of reach of those they view as "unworthy." Part of the reason I hang around the sport still, is to remind that 1% that the target doesn't care what they think.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> So, I haven't done a thorough review, but offhand, does anyone know if - other than Joe Thornton in '65 - the U.S. has been represented by a minority at either the Olympics or World Championships? My memory isn't always the best, but I can't think of anyone, male or female.


Anyone care to take a crack at that? Are we seriously looking at 50 years since the last minority represented us internationally at a major event? Makes me wonder what other sport could possibly compare.


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Well said Tom. It is the right thing to do, in addition to the other benefits.
> John


What right thing! Right thing for whom? What other benefits?

I ask, excluding diversity, Is Brady, the Poster Child, attractive source for Organized Archery? If not, who or what is? What are we proposing to market?


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> For many years now, it's been obvious to me and so many others that our sport (Olympic archery in particular) is not a very diverse one.
> What say you?


Ive been saying the same about boxing and sprinting - who knows how many sub 10 sec mexicans and brazilian pigmy title contenders will never realise their potential.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> So then, in regards to mainstream recreational sports, how do you account for a lack of minorities in the following...
> 
> Baseball
> Softball
> ...


first, a number of those are just as niche as archery if not more so. And if you are talking about the demographics at the pro lvl that a little different that what i'm talking about. I am speaking to the grassroots demographic. That kinda of things is going to based on where its taking place. If you go to my local high school, the sports teams are almost all white individuals. You go up the road an hour to st.louis and that almost all white demographic changes.


at the pro lvl...
Baseball - plenty of great non white players. 
Softball - didn't even know this was a pro sport. 
Golf - Tiger woods?
Tennis - Williams sisters?
Volleyball - at the pro lvl i think this is a fairly niche sport. 
Soccer - yep only white people play soccer...
Wrestling - more niche than Archery i think
Hockey - if every small town could afford an icerink Im sure more would play.
Lacrosse - you got me on this one. Its a costal ivy league-ish sport. 
Bowling - again a niche sport. 
EVERT winter Olympic sport - this is really a location problem. Not everyone lives in areas that they can ski, or do winter sports. You need snow. And mountains. Or an incredibly expensive facility to practice at. 

BUT for the vast majority of what you are talking about - there is little investment needed to engage in those sports for recreation at a grassroots, local town level.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Anyone care to take a crack at that? Are we seriously looking at 50 years since the last minority represented us internationally at a major event? Makes me wonder what other sport could possibly compare.


when was the last time a white man ran the 100m for the US in the Summer olympics?


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Anyone care to take a crack at that? Are we seriously looking at 50 years since the last minority represented us internationally at a major event? Makes me wonder what other sport could possibly compare.


Justin Huish


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hey, look. we have some visitors to the fita forum! Welcome guys (or gals).

Justin? Huh? Pls. explain.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dacer said:


> when was the last time a white man ran the 100m for the US in the Summer olympics?


Good point. Look at the success and attention that track and field enjoy. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> first, a number of those are just as niche as archery if not more so. And if you are talking about the demographics at the pro lvl that a little different that what i'm talking about. I am speaking to the grassroots demographic. That kinda of things is going to based on where its taking place. If you go to my local high school, the sports teams are almost all white individuals. You go up the road an hour to st.louis and that almost all white demographic changes.
> 
> 
> at the pro lvl...
> ...


Two things.
1. I was only considering youth level grassroots sports when I listed these.
2. The professional level is a DIRECT representation of the youth level. They are directly related.

So, lets look at what you said sport by sport.....

at the pro lvl...
Baseball - plenty of great non white players. 
(2012 MLB Race %) White 63.9% Black 7.2% Latino 26.9% Asian 1.9% 
Softball - didn't even know this was a pro sport. 
Yes, yes it is.
Golf - Tiger woods?
Thats one out of what, 250 that hold a pro card at any time? Theres maybe a few more.
Tennis - Williams sisters?
Only 2 players out of both men and women come to mind? Odd
Volleyball - at the pro lvl i think this is a fairly niche sport.
Not nearly as niche as archery. Between beach and indoor, more than you think. 
Soccer - yep only white people play soccer...
Wrestling - more niche than Archery i think
Not even close. And its mostly white. Watch the Olympics when it comes back
Hockey - if every small town could afford an icerink Im sure more would play.
So, cost IS a factor then? Its not just the facility being there. Rental time and equipment? Hockey is the whitest sport in the US, SOLEY BECAUSE OF MONEY. There is no better example!
Lacrosse - you got me on this one. Its a costal ivy league-ish sport. 
Bowling - again a niche sport.
Bowling has higher ratings than Hockey on TV believe it or not, and has one of the HIGHEST participation rates in the country. Not even close to niche. 
EVERY winter Olympic sport - this is really a location problem. Not everyone lives in areas that they can ski, or do winter sports. You need snow. And mountains. Or an incredibly expensive facility to practice at. 
You think once you get to mountain ranges, its all white people? And again, as you just said, you need an expensive facility. Those options aren't availbale to those in lower income communites. 

BUT for the vast majority of what you are talking about - there is little investment needed to engage in those sports for recreation at a grassroots, local town level.
Little investment?!?!?! You have no idea what you're talking about, I assume through no fault of your own. Where do you think parks and rec departments get the money to fund programs? Through taxes, millages, and player fees. Do you think in lower SEC's that these funds exist? I dare you to go to your local inner city YMCA, and tell me how much money is going into that facility.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Good point. Look at the success and attention that track and field enjoy. Thanks for pointing that out.


If you looked through the powerpoints, you'd understand why you see certain races participating in certain sports and how they approach the sport. It has been proven there is no 'Jumping Gene' like previous stereotypes have led people to believe. Just isn't true.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> Two things.
> 1. I was only considering youth level grassroots sports when I listed these.
> 2. The professional level is a DIRECT representation of the youth level. They are directly related.
> 
> ...



the small town I live in has over 30% at or below the poverty level. Yet, there are basketball courts, baseball/softball fields, soccer fields that double for football if needed, Tennis courts, the school as a wrestling team, and a track, we have a bowling ally that is dirt cheap. 

We even have a golf course near by but that is a privately owned - but its open to the public and if you want to play golf in high school - you get to use it for free. 

We don't have any mountains with snow, or a bobsled track, or a icerink - so not a lot of those sports going on here. 

baseball - gloves (kinda optional) a bat and a field doesn't even need to be a real baseball field. 
Soccer - you need a ball and goal nets are nice but we played without them when i was a kid all the time. 
Football - you need a ball. 
Tennis - you need a ball and some $15 rackets from walmart. 
... and so on. 

For a grassroots participation not a lot of investment is needed by the individual. The town i live in has 6,200 people i with a 1/3 of them at or below the poverty line.


Your point is minorities don't get to play sports because they dont have the money... yet you also pointed out the African American majority in pro football, and of course you can look at basketball too, US track and Field. 

I am however done with what I have to say in this tread. I understand you are saying there is a economic barrier in getting involved with things. And its not surprising that the majority population is the majority in many sports. IF someone wants to start a charity to help those with out the economic means by starting archery equipment then that's great. But what is being argued doesn't change anything and it certainly isn't progressing the topic.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> the small town I live in has over 30% at or below the poverty level. Yet, there are basketball courts, baseball/softball fields, soccer fields that double for football if needed, Tennis courts, the school as a wrestling team, and a track, we have a bowling ally that is dirt cheap.
> 
> We even have a golf course near by but that is a privately owned - but its open to the public and if you want to play golf in high school - you get to use it for free.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but you're not even close.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> If you looked through the powerpoints, you'd understand why you see certain races participating in certain sports and how they approach the sport. It has been proven there is no 'Jumping Gene' like previous stereotypes have led people to believe. Just isn't true.


So what you are saying is that its not that African Americans of west African decent are physically more capable at running but that white athletes just don't want it as much their black teammate? whites just don't have the willpower to win?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dacer, that's very similiar to the town where I live and where we operate our JOAD club.

While I have a small group of very dedicated and very accomplished archers who travel up to 2 hours one-way to shoot with us, it's been very difficult to get many of the small-town local archers to take archery seriously as a sport, and to set goals that extended beyond their county lines. It's a source of frustration for me weekly because I see the talent that many of these small town kids have. Biggest obstacle is that they have very few role models who shot archery, if any, and of course, the expense. 

So yea, it's not just a question of ethnicity. Diversity of course, comes in many forms and to see one of these small town kids from a very modest background succeed at the highest levels of our sport is of course, one of my biggest motivators. Any coach will tell you that every time they wanted to quit coaching, there was always that one kid who kept them going. I have a few of those, thankfully.

But even in our little town, our archers are not a very ethnically diverse group. A few of our out-of-towners add to that, but even though our town is easily 1/3 hispanic, white and AA, we struggle to draw equally from all ethnic groups. Our 4-H archery program even supplies the equipment, so expense is not the issue. I am seeing more and more hispanic families come to the 4-H archery program, but still very few AA kids. Not sure if that's true across 4-H, but I suspect it is. 

Somehow, the sport of archery needs to figure out how to break into those communities and help them realize that archery is a great sport for everyone. "Release your wild" sounds great, but every African-American I have known will tell you that they ain't going into the "wild." So I'm not sure that's the message for that audience.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> So what you are saying is that its not that African Americans of west African decent are physically more capable at running but that white athletes just don't want it as much their black teammate? whites just don't have the willpower to win?


Have you read through the material Dacer? It not a factor of will power. From a very early age, the way whites and blacks approach sports is very different. In the African American culture, sports is seen as their ticket to money and fame. Do you really think they all dream of being successful business men in power positions? Not a chance. The youth get this mentality from their elders, who, have gone through life as a second class citizen and breed this mentality into them. 

Do young black males in general, see professional sports as their meal ticket as opposed to middle-upper class whites? Absolutely, without a single doubt. Every professional black athlete will tell you the same thing, as they've gone on record hundreds of times saying just this.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You guys are getting off track. And jmann, your broad generalizations are starting to make me shake my head.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> You guys are getting off track. And jmann, your broad generalizations are starting to make me shake my head.


These aren't mine actually, this is the consensus of those in academia, professional sports, and almost all sport psychologists. Many of which fall in the minority category might I add. You mentioned it before, it's an uncomfortable topic.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

So is this new ATA derived "Release your Wild" campaign not diverse enough in its representation?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> So is this new ATA derived "Release your Wild" campaign not diverse enough in its representation?


I don't recall anyone saying that, but all of the current "Release Your Wild" photos on the FB page are of white people...









:dontknow:


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

Being a minority myself I am from the south and it's an exposure thing FOR THE MOST PART. We all made bows and arrows from sticks and string when we were little, but as we age the reality is through elementary>middle>high school the only sports we are primarily exposed to are the primary big TV sports. I am used to being the only black guy in the room from my interests in this area, but I'll say it's amazing the reponse I get with kids from all back grounds see me shooting in my or my parents yard. NASP programs do a great job of exposing youth to the sport, but unfortunately it's not available in my area, I happened on bowhunting and from there and thousands of dollars lately competitive archery in ASA & NFAA. I think as individuals we have a responsibility to be ambassadors of the sport and as we do we'd be amazed at the diversity of archers we'd see. I know also in the bowhunting realm it's very uncommon to see minority faces despite the fact I know guys originally from Laos, Korea, India, etc who hunt here in the states where they are citizens. On the flip side of things I've also experienced the "WTH is he doing here response too on the range and in the bow shops". So diversity is some times frowned upon in this arena...let's just be honest


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I don't recall anyone saying that, but all of the current "Release Your Wild" photos on the FB page are of white people...
> 
> View attachment 1810409
> 
> ...


Every single picture on the Facebook page, is of white people.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> Every single picture on the Facebook page, is of white people.


Why don't we stop looking at peoples skin color and rather at the content of their character? 

I see people in those pictures - if you want to make their race an issue thats on you.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> Why don't we stop looking at peoples skin color and rather at the content of their character?
> 
> I see people in those pictures - if you want to make their race an issue thats on you.


You're able to tell the content of somebodies character based on a picture? That's amazing.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> You're able to tell the content of somebodies character based on a picture? That's amazing.


 are you saying because they are white they have poor character? I give people the benefit of the doubt before passing decision on what their actions and attitude precludes me to believe about their character.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Dacer said:


> are you saying because they are white they have poor character? I give people the benefit of the doubt before passing decision on what their actions and attitude precludes me to believe about their character.


How old are you?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jmann28 said:


> How old are you?


Are you an Ageist?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You two need to stop. 



> Do young black males in general, see professional sports as their *meal ticket* as opposed to middle-upper class whites? Absolutely, *without a single doubt*. *Every* professional black athlete will tell you the same thing


I'm not African American, and I found this statement offensive and frankly, dumb. If you're going to presume to present "science" at least do it in a responsible, professional way. Using terms like "meal ticket" and "without a doubt" and saying "EVERY black athlete" is irresponsible, and offensive. I'm hoping you can do better.



> I am used to being the only black guy in the room from my interests in this area, but I'll say it's amazing the reponse I get with kids from all back grounds see me shooting in my or my parents yard.


This ^^^ right here, is my entire point. It could be, and should be, the way to grow this sport in a socially responsible way. We need diverse ambassadors for our sport to serve as role models. Imagine what impact just one or two minority Olympic or World Championship archers from the U.S. would have on the JOAD ranks going down the road. It would be huge.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Yea, I'll stop. The last few posts I was just being a troll. Apologies for derailing the thread.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Hmmm. Yea, well maybe. As I said, it could just be a function of expense, which is common to many sports.


As a young teen growing up in an extremely poor family, I never would have considered archery. Spending money on a sport was pretty much out of the question for me -- we were just trying to get by. I hiked, fished, and played softball, just like everybody else, because that's what was available. If there had been an archery range just down the street, and if the bows were free, I probably would have tried archery. Otherwise, forget it.

Poverty really narrows the vision. Despite my earlier comment, I would agree with your suggestion that a cause of a lack of diversity in the sport is economic.

Even after 35 years of a decent salary and relative wealth, It's still hard to break out of that poverty mind-set and spend money on things that will really help my enjoyment of life.

Maybe one solution is a bow scholarship. An archer of limited means can earn the bow that they are shooting by achieving a certain score, and trade up by earning the next store. To avoid the stigma of poverty, scholarship bows are otherwise unmarked and no different than other bows being shot at the club... That doesn't solve the transportation problem, though. In a family with zero or one beater car, how is our poverty-stricken archer supposed to get to the range?


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> You two need to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I dont disagree that it sounds harsh and quite frankly has some bigotry associated with it, there is an entire population of AA's in the professional ranks of ALL sports (both coaches and players) as well as university professors nationwide in sport psychology and sociology, that say this very same thing. It sounded just as bad coming out of thier mouths. Heck, there are currently THREE former NFL football players (who I wont name as they don't like everyone knowing what they do anymore) that are in my program. Not one disagrees with this approach to the subject.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jmann28 said:


> While I dont disagree that it sounds harsh and quite frankly has some bigotry associated with it, there is an entire population of AA's in the professional ranks of ALL sports (both coaches and players) as well as university professors nationwide in sport psychology and sociology, that say this very same thing. It sounded just as bad coming out of thier mouths. Heck, there are currently THREE former NFL football players (who I wont name as they don't like everyone knowing what they do anymore) that are in my program. Not one disagrees with this approach to the subject.


I think you could advocate for your position better at this point if you'd cite some of this reputable consensus you keep referring to, perhaps some survey data, or published papers or something similar so it is clear that it isn't just you.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I think you could advocate for your position better at this point if you'd cite some of this reputable consensus you keep referring to, perhaps some survey data, or published papers or something similar so it is clear that it isn't just you.


I've posted two PowerPoint presentations from lectures earlier this year in this thread with all the data you can ask for. If you want me to email them to you, pm your email address.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> As a young teen growing up in an extremely poor family, I never would have considered archery. Spending money on a sport was pretty much out of the question for me -- we were just trying to get by. I hiked, fished, and played softball, just like everybody else, because that's what was available. If there had been an archery range just down the street, and if the bows were free, I probably would have tried archery. Otherwise, forget it.
> 
> Poverty really narrows the vision. Despite my earlier comment, I would agree with your suggestion that a cause of a lack of diversity in the sport is economic.
> 
> ...


Great points all around. My upbringing was very similar, which is why I am so sensitive to the emotions that parents go through when we flip through a Lancaster catalog together. It's a weekly experience and I do the best I can to help them save $$ while still ensuring their child has equipment that at least match their experience level. But it's not easy. And these are mostly lower middle class small town folks, not even poverty level. Encouraging foundations like ESDF to address this need and make it a priority to develop facilities in underserved and minority-dense neighborhoods would be a good start. It's rather stunning to me that New York and LA and Houston don't have major archery facilities, if for no other reason than just the sheer populations to support them. But those would all be great locations for minority recruitment to our sport.

jmann, several of your comments sounded rather harsh and bigoted, specifically toward AA's. You should probalby think about that, esp. if you're studying what you say you're studying. 

Participation by any one ethnic group will only ever be part of the solution. And in my experience, young minorities don't necessarily have to see another minority of their same ethnic group to feel welcome. They just need to know that it's not another hangout for the wealthy white folks, and that's good enough for them. Right now, walking past the field at Outdoor Nationals or most other archery tournaments, that would be a tough message to sell.


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> This ^^^ right here, is my entire point. It could be, and should be, the way to grow this sport in a socially responsible way. We need diverse ambassadors for our sport to serve as role models. Imagine what impact just one or two minority Olympic or World Championship archers from the U.S. would have on the JOAD ranks going down the road. It would be huge.


I love talking to people about archery. I love to shoot and I love to try and get people involved in the sport and the culture whenever possible. One day, I hope to be a role model to some kids that come through the shop or even somebody that they can just swap stories with. Being that I dont see very many Asian's shooting 3d archery, I would love to be somebody that someone can look up to. I remember when I started any kind of sport. The ethnicity of somebody like me, really got me hyped up and I wanted to be just like them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tomah, great post.



> One day, I hope to be a role model to some kids that come through the shop


Chances are, you already are. We're usually not aware of who all was looking up to us, until someday, they are able to look us in the eyes and thank us.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

1,430 views in 27 hours. I'd say this is a topic worthy of discussion in our sport.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jmann28 said:


> I've posted two PowerPoint presentations from lectures earlier this year in this thread with all the data you can ask for. If you want me to email them to you, pm your email address.


I understand that, I was thinking of this great thing called quoting in a post as opposed to a giant attachment, kind of like what you do when you quote specific stuff in one of your papers rather than just attaching the whole power point to the end with no references.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> jmann, several of your comments sounded rather harsh and bigoted, specifically toward AA's. You should probalby think about that, esp. if you're studying what you say you're studying.


I think they sound more harsh and bigoted through text more so than if we were to be having this conversation in person. I can assure you, i'm not a bigot. If you'd be interested, come the end of december, I should have a 25-30 page thesis on this subject. I'd be more than happy to send you a copy.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I understand that, I was thinking of this great thing called quoting in a post as opposed to a giant attachment, kind of like what you do when you quote specific stuff in one of your papers rather than just attaching the whole power point to the end with no references.


Let me see what I can pull out of it for you, as far as graphs and numbers go.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

“Sports are a detriment to blacks because too many blacks channel all their energy into it at the expense of developing other skills. We have a society now where every black kid in the country thinks the only way he can be successful is through athletics. People look at athletes and entertainers as a sum of black America.”

-Charles Barkley

I'll get a bunch of stuff out of the powerpoints when I get home from class tonight.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jmann28 said:


> “Sports are a detriment to blacks because too many blacks channel all their energy into it at the expense of developing other skills. We have a society now where every black kid in the country thinks the only way he can be successful is through athletics. People look at athletes and entertainers as a sum of black America.”
> 
> -Charles Barkley
> 
> I'll get a bunch of stuff out of the powerpoints when I get home from class tonight.


Thanks. So yes, African Americans (at least one) do say that. But as you know anecdotes are unreliable evidence and not necessarily representative. What does the survey data say? (It's the pedant in me...) I ask because I can't very well quote you to someone else, I'd get shot down on the same reasonably skeptical basis that Limbwalker is objecting on. Show him data of a trend and that you are accurately summarizing how people in the community characterize it and we'll have some solid ground to stand on and have a discussion about.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Warbow said:


> Thanks. So yes, African Americans (at least one) do say that. But as you know anecdotes are unreliable evidence and not necessarily representative. What does the survey data say? (It's the pedant in me...) I ask because I can't very well quote you to someone else, I'd get shot down on the same reasonably skeptical basis that Limbwalker is objecting on. Show him data of a trend and that you are accurately summarizing how people in the community characterize it and we'll have some solid ground to stand on and have a discussion about.


It's a whole lot more than that! It was intersting hearing these former NFL players speak about it. They are really cool about the subject and were very open about it. Somebody asked if the notion that black kids look at sports this way is true, and all three agreed its the vast majority. Mostly becuase of the way they're told to treat sports by those around them. Ironic thing is, all three said they didn't have any desire for their sons to play football, and want them to go to school instead.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmann, you seem to have a real interest in black athletes.

I love Barkley, but I have to admit its pretty easy for him to say that now that he has all his finances taken care of. Maybe he always believed that, but I wonder if he was any different when he was 17.

A.n.y.w.a.y.... Back to archery.


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## TeamE (Aug 4, 2013)

Nathan Yamaguchi is a Resident Athlete out in Chula Vista


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Hey, look. we have some visitors to the fita forum! Welcome guys (or gals).
> 
> Justin? Huh? Pls. explain.


Welsh origins.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Welsh. Really?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

TeamE said:


> Nathan Yamaguchi is a Resident Athlete out in Chula Vista


Yes, he is. He just got accepted as an RA after an eval period. He's also a very good friend of my son's, and his dad and mom are good friends with my family. But, considering Asian recurvers are a pretty huge segment of archery here in the United States (let alone abroad), that's not a surprise.


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Welsh. Really?


Kid you not. I understand it's a stretch on the theme though.

I wish his personal life story was a different. He had an accessible hipness more relative to what we are discussing.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I am going to share a not so politically correct story from my youth.

Back in the mid-70's, Arizona was finally forced to desegregate their schools. The Tucson Unified School District (then known as Tucson School District 1) had to do integration and surveying of their schools to ensure that there was a balance of ethnicity.

My dad worked as a high school teacher during that time. I remember clearly the wonderful surveys that we had to fill out and send back regarding the ethnicity.

My genetic background is Chinese, although I'm the fifth generation here in the States on my mom's side of the family. So, under most current day surveys, I would be a "Asian/Pacific Islander". Back then? You had checkboxes for Caucasian, Hispanic, American Indian, and African American. That's it.

Calling the school district rendered the obvious. I'm classified as a Caucasian. 

The 70's were fun...


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> I am going to share a not so politically correct story from my youth.
> 
> Back in the mid-70's, Arizona was finally forced to desegregate their schools. The Tucson Unified School District (then known as Tucson School District 1) had to do integration and surveying of their schools to ensure that there was a balance of ethnicity.
> 
> ...


Small world. I graduated from Tucson's Santa Rita high school in 1974, then headed to UofA for my engineering degree.

Carry on.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

TomB said:


> Small world. I graduated from Tucson's Santa Rita high school in 1974, then headed to UofA for my engineering degree.
> 
> Carry on.


Peter Howell to Rincon High here, until my family moved back to Phoenix. Dad taught at Rincon, then Pima CC, then left school teaching for training potential Electricians at Cyprus Pima, a nearby copper mine.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Yes, he is. He just got accepted as an RA after an eval period. He's also a very good friend of my son's, and his dad and mom are good friends with my family. But, considering Asian recurvers are a pretty huge segment of archery here in the United States (let alone abroad), that's not a surprise.


Yup, I wouldn't consider Asian Americans to be underrepresented in our sport. Not if you attended a major event in the past few years... So that's great. I'm still waiting for the first Korean American to break out and make an international team some day. It's going to happen. You gotta know it is.

screemnjay, Justin did change the mold somewhat, and bring things up to date at the time. Shame the story didn't end better though. I think, in a way, Brady is doing the same - bringing in the bowhunting crowd and appealing to the younger, less "country club" audience. I think the fact that his family story is what it is, helps a lot too. One more example of how someone with enough talent and passion and drive can overcome a difficult background to do great things in our sport.



> although I'm the fifth generation here in the States


Beast, you're more " 'merican " than I am man! ha, ha. 

I'm only 3rd generation, unless you squeeze out the tiny bit of Choctaw, in which case I'm 500th generation.


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## Gwen Sheppard (May 11, 2012)

I am a 51 year old African American Woman. When I grew up the emphasis was always get a good education. I took up archery in 2011 when I competed on the Air Force Wound Warrior Team. Growing up we were never exposed to sports like archery, air rifles, skiing, golf, etc. You participated in whatever the school had or the summertime club near you. For me it was Softball and bowling. I took up air rifles in 2011 also. I never new such a thing existed. I love both sports and now wish I had been exposed to them sooner.

To generalize and say all Blacks are told the way to make money is through sports is insulting to me and other successful Blacks. My parents and my friends parents put emphasis on education. You play sports because all your friends played sports. There were no expectation of making money from sports. That being said, this is a new generation. I raised my brother who is 19 years younger than me. He was a phenomenal athlete. He played hockey, wrestling, football, golf and track. His passion was football were he earned a scholarship to play. During his whole time of playing the message was get a good education so if something happens and you don't make the pros, you have something to fall back on. He took a year off to purse trying to get selected on a professional team. He even tried out at Tampa Bay. After a year he went back to school to finish his degree in electrical engineering just like me.

I have digressed. I am now trying to get involved in Olympic recurve shooting. In the area I live there is only 1 indoor range were I can afford to practice. I am fortunate and can afford to participate in archery. I think about the inner city kids and they probably have no ideal what archery is about other than "The Hunger Games."

USA Archery needs a grass roots program to reach inner city kids. 

Btw I will be going to the Vegas Shoot for the first time. I don't expect to see many Blacks but I hope to be surprised. 

Just my two cents on a wonderful topic. Thank you for having the courage to discuss this emotional topic.


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

Gwen Sheppard said:


> I am a 51 year old African American Woman. When I grew up the emphasis was always get a good education. I took up archery in 2011 when I competed on the Air Force Wound Warrior Team. Growing up we were never exposed to sports like archery, air rifles, skiing, golf, etc. You participated in whatever the school had or the summertime club near you. For me it was Softball and bowling. I took up air rifles in 2011 also. I never new such a thing existed. I love both sports and now wish I had been exposed to them sooner.
> 
> To generalize and say all Blacks are told the way to make money is through sports is insulting to me and other successful Blacks. My parents and my friends parents put emphasis on education. You play sports because all your friends played sports. There were no expectation of making money from sports. That being said, this is a new generation. I raised my brother who is 19 years younger than me. He was a phenomenal athlete. He played hockey, wrestling, football, golf and track. His passion was football were he earned a scholarship to play. During his whole time of playing the message was get a good education so if something happens and you don't make the pros, you have something to fall back on. He took a year off to purse trying to get selected on a professional team. He even tried out at Tampa Bay. After a year he went back to school to finish his degree in electrical engineering just like me.
> 
> ...


Great response all all around. While some believe, from experience, that schools will not be open to archery, I know of schools where I leave that offer courses in bow hunting, close down for the first season of bow season and offer archery as a form of physical education. I understand that is the culture of the area. With that said, there lies the bottom line for me. Change the culture of schools and their relationship to archery. While bow hunting will not be the way to sell to inner city schools, the idea of discipline, focus, community, etc. can be used. Beyond that, archery can be sold as a cross disciplinary study....physics, philosophy and archery would be an interesting blend. Colleges offer it....why not inner city schools. To simply accept that it will not happen is immediately cutting off a main system of culture and influence within communities.

Great topic. Diversity is the life blood of our country and while we may disagree on various politics, it is the one theme we all need to support.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gwen, thank you for speaking up and sharing your story.

If schools won't allow archery - and I respect their decision not to - then what about YMCA or city parks and rec programs? I know a woman who works closely with a city park and rec. program near Houston, and her counterpart who helps run the archery program is African American. While not "inner city" they do have an opportunity to reach into more diverse populations of kids than many suburban or middle America programs do.

Gwen, the small town I'm in is roughly 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 black, hispanic and white. We have a great 4-H program that supplies equipment and makes archery affordable for ANY kid, and this so far, has attracted a few families of lower income levels that could not afford to have their child participate in archery otherwise. Unfortunately, even 4-H struggles in our area to attract minority families for reasons I suspect have to do with the strong connection to agricultural programs. Some of our families are hispanic or African American. But I'd like to do more to help ALL the kids in our town have a chance to enjoy this sport. What advice would you have for the leader of a relatively small JOAD/Adult Archery/4-H program to do that? How would I get started? I, and I suspect many other program leaders, would love to hear your thoughts on this.

John


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## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

Interesting thread. Building archery is going to be a slow road. Obviously, kids are exposed to basketball and football at the youngest of ages, and that's why their role models are Michael Jordan and Peyton Manning. We have to capitalize on this current boom in archery awareness to capture kids attention. Let's face it, right now nobody is out there buying Jake Kaminski replica jerseys.

So what do you do? Bring the local archery pro into a PE class for a demonstration? Kids will think archery is cool until the next recess, then they will go home and watch/play football. 

Until archery can pay for college like football or basketball can, it's going to take a back seat. On the same token, high school males will take notice of the fact that not a lot of girls are showing up to watch them shoot arrows, but the stands are usually packed full of them under the Friday night lights.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jmann28 said:


> So then, those parents do or don't make enough money to make it happen then? Albeit they're struggling, but it's more support than those in lower SES families can afford. Is it not? With that said, do you not understand what a small microcosm your club is within the overall picture? That quote is over ALL sports and activities within the United States, not just archery in your club.
> 
> You and 4 buddies go hunting in x state on so and so's property for 1 day. You see deer every hour and your 4 buddies don't see 1 between them all. Are they to think there isn't any deer there and the property is a waste of time and money?


Puhleeze. I'm not the one relentlessly grinding my narrative, and pointedly discounting any inconvenient answers to what I guess you intended to be rhetorical questions. My statements did nothing more than address YOUR statements, and I didn't make blanket pontificating declarations about "how it is, and what it means". 

You said: "So, let me ask this to anyone who would know, how many archery clubs are in or around inner cities? Every club and range I've ever seen is far off into 'white country'. "

All I did was answer your question with my own personal experience (as opposed to making broad blanket pronouncements, and then discounting any contrary detail that strays from the narrative). 


Do you think kids in lower socioeconomic classes have the ability to get equipment and travel to the suburbs, pay a membership fee, and for coaching?? There's your answer. It's much easier to just play the few sports that schools offer, like football and basketball. 
The reason you see sports today with the participation numbers by race that you do is directly related to opportunities for them at the grass roots and youth level.

I also specifically addressed this question/assertion you made, with an observation/anecdote of something that _actually happened_, and just 24 hours ago (to wit, in an average demographic school with 5,000 students, and high participation rates by blacks in the more traditional sports like football and basketball, a hundred kids come out for archery in a school sponsored tryout, with school provided gear, and practice provided at the school (no 'white suburb club for practice necessary', no money for equipment needed, with all ethnic/racial groups made equally aware and equally welcome in the invitation/communication). And once again, you reaction is to brush aside any data that is inconvenient to your narrative.

Sorry, but I don't see a two way conversation here.

Instead of obscure generalities (which are only good for arguments, not solutions, because the commenting sides are never talking about the same issue - like blind men standing around an elephant and each man describing the part of the elephant that his hands are on .... that all descriptions don't "match" doesn't mean that any one of the descriptions is inaccurate) ... perhaps you could lay out some specific parameters that describe the composite group you're alluding to. Family yearly income? # of kids in family? Sports offered and supported (with school equipment and venues) by the schools the kids in this family go to, and the racial/ethnic breakdown of participation in those sports where money/access is not a exclusionary set of factors?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

it increasingly becomes more evident with statements like "white country" that you aren't going to be happy until white people start apologizing for being white... That's the attitude emanating from your posts. This is what i can skim from your clearly ideological view point that you are trying to present as hardcore science. That also has does nothing for the discussion on getting out the awareness of archery. 

The real point should be about getting archery exposed to the younger generation in schools and after school programs all over the country at YMCA's, community centers, all over. This exposure will lead to more people wanting to get into it... of all kinds of people. You say some won't get involved in it because they can't see it as making money (that is their choice) - well I don't see this as making money either but its still incredibly fun. 

This is about getting the word out - not shouting ideological arguments about the social and economic statues of minorities as if there isn't poverty in the majority population as well. Instead perhaps you can use your energies to set up a charity to help the disadvantaged - regardless of race - to get archery equipment in your local city, start a club or after schools program. We all know there are poor, and that getting into archery on ones own isn't cheap. However if we have clubs, after school programs that can help to shoulder those initial costs with the providing of club bows, arrows, and targets - that goes a really long way. 

Stop the ideology and think about actual ways to spread the world of archery to others - not rhetoric that does absolutely nothing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The real point should be about getting archery exposed to the younger generation in schools and after school programs all over the country at YMCA's, community centers, all over.


Yes, of course that's a big part of the answer. But not all of it. I say that, because to a degree, all of these things have been happening for decades now. Where do you think most of our current archers came from? They certainly weren't born at the OTC or on a field in Ohio.  Another part of the answer, and the one I was hoping to discuss, was how we expand those current efforts to better include ALL minorities (and sorry jmann, but I tire of those who seem to think African Americans are the only minority whenever this subject comes up) so that we don't have to go ANOTHER 50 years before we have a U.S. team that even comes close to representing the population. 

Obviously, in some areas of the country like SoCal, we're doing a great job of engaging the Asian-American community, and it would be my bet that we will see an Asian-American on a men's or women's Olympic or World Championship team in the near future. That's a start, but it's only a start in my view. I think our sport is really missing out on a lot of talented people who still don't see it as the welcoming, fair and unbaised sport that it is.

For those who will say "the opportunity is there, all they have to do is join," here's my reply: 

Imagine the house next door to you sells and new neighbors move in. You see them from your driveway every couple of days, smile and wave politely (after all, you're a nice person right? You don't want them to think you're mean), and then go about your business. But pretty soon, months go by and you wonder why you still don't know their name. That ever happen to anyone? It would be like saying, well, they have the opportunity to come over here and introduce themselves to me, but they just haven't taken it yet. Guess I'll just wait until they do. And then nothing will change. Meanwhile, on their side of the hedges, they are wondering why the neighbors haven't invited them over or come over to say hello, and being new to the neighborhood, they aren't really comfortable making the first move.

This is a scenario that plays out every day, in every neighborhood in the U.S. The behavior has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, but rather it's just human nature.

As the current "homeowners" in this neighborhood, I feel it's our job to reach out to new or prospective neighbors, introduce ourselves and invite them over for a glass of tea or (in my case, a :darkbeer: ha, ha). After all, we're archers, and archers are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. But it's up to us to take the first step. We can't just stand there and wonder why the new neighbor isn't coming over to say hello.


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## TeamE (Aug 4, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Yup, I wouldn't consider Asian Americans to be underrepresented in our sport. Not if you attended a major event in the past few years... So that's great. I'm still waiting for the first Korean American to break out and make an international team some day. It's going to happen. You gotta know it is.


Ok, so just a couple of points I would like to bring up. First off, we do have Korean Americans making international teams, Kevin Kim competed at the Youth World Championships last month, and both him and his brother are on Cadet USAT this year. Don't overlook the achievements of our junior archers. 

Secondly, I am a little confused as to what you are looking for when you say "diversity". You claim you don't really care about political correctness, so I am just going come out and ask...are you specifically looking for more black people on the national stage? If Asian Americans are not underrepresented( meaning Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc) what else are you looking for? I personally know quite a few competitors of Latin American and Cuban decent, and a handful of African American archers (again, mostly on the junior side of the field). So, what group do you feel is underrepresented and that requires this active recruitment approach you are suggesting?


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Here is another facet of the topic that might be in play; the individualistic nature of the sport.

I managed a soccer team that was loosely affiliated with my former employer for many years. Because that employer recruited internationally, we had a diverse group of players already, but needed to draw players from the community at large to fill out the roster.

In order to compete in archery, all I really need is the venue, my USA membership card and my bow. I don't have to bring 14 other people with me, and I don't need most of those other players to have a high skill set (i.e. I don't care where they came from, what accent they have, or even what language they speak -- just whether they can play)

Most of our players found us, by observing us playing or practicing and needing a team. We picked up a Columbian player and a couple of non-english-speaking Mexicans because we already had a couple of Mexicans on our team. Once we even had a Catholic priest from South America. Diversity begets diversity -- if you want diversity on a team I think that you have to be careful to hold onto the members you already have.

Without a good concept of 'team' in archery there's much less of an incentive to be welcoming. If I had to recruit a dozen others in order to participate in an archery competition, I might just try a little harder to be welcoming.

I'm not sure how this concept of team could be furthered, but I think that the sport might be better off if there was a team component.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

Diversity has to do with all minority groups. Clubs working with rec centers and camps can reach a lot of different backgrounds if we have the equipment and instructors to do that. We can get grants to get equipment,,but getting people to volunteer their time to teach and still live their own lives is tough. It is just part of life. But the more qualified people we get,,the more kids we can teach of all backgrounds. I want to see all my kids succeed and grow up to be accomplished archers. This can be done at a grassroots level as Limbwalker has shown,,or it can be done at the Olympic training centers. But the key here is the will of the child as to what he or she wants to obtain or goal they set for themselves and what the parent,parents,,grandparents,friends or instructor can provide in support. 
The fact that we are aware that more instruction of all our young people is needed is a very positive thing. Everyone on here can work toward that goal. But as on every sports team,,those with the talent and the mental toughness and the Love for that sport will rise to the top and represent U.S.A. Diversity in archery is going to get better at the lower levels,,but what happens at the upper levels in USA archery will only come with time. As for archery worldwide,,it maybe the most diverse sport other than soccer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TeamE - did you just register so you could post on this thread? If so, great. Thanks for joining in the conversation.



> First off, we do have Korean Americans making international teams, Kevin Kim competed at the Youth World Championships last month, and both him and his brother are on Cadet USAT this year. Don't overlook the achievements of our junior archers.


I've got a pretty good idea of what's been going on in our sport in the U.S. for the past 10 years, having coached at the OTC on the original JDT staff, run two JOAD clubs in two states, and haven taken archers from those two clubs to Indoor and Outdoor nationals, NFAA nationals and vegas countless times now. So, of COURSE I realize that we have young archers making international teams. If you would go back and read my posts, I said as much just one or two posts ago, and even said I thought a Korean-American or at least an Asian-American would probably be the first minority to represent the US at the Olympics or World Championships (not youth games) in the past 50 years. Please read what I said before you post.

In addition, our youth teams have been fairly diverse for more than just the past few years. So I guess I'm wondering when we'll see more diversity in adult international teams, and why it's been so long since that has happened (and it would be an insult to our intelligence to continue to cite exceptions to the rule).



> so I am just going come out and ask...are you specifically looking for more black people on the national stage?


Why always the African-Americans? Seems like more than one person here is hung up on that. If you think that's what I mean, then obviously you haven't been reading along. Where I'm from, it's pretty evenly split anglo/african-american/hispanic, so that's what I'm used to seeing on a daily basis. Not too many asian folks 'round here, but like I've said many times already, Houston is now the most diverse city in the U.S. and I go into Houston quite often. Believe me, I see true ethnic diversity a WHOLE lot more often than a lot of folks around this country. ha, ha. When I lived in Illinois, their idea of "diversity" was having a German, Italian and Pole all in the same room.  It's actually one reason (among many) that I wanted to bring my kids back to Texas - so they could experience kids their age from diverse backgrounds. 

PC? Nope. There is being PC, and then there is socially responsible, and then even still, there is being responsible to our sport. And that last part means we need to be reaching out further than we have in the past, and actively inviting people from ALL ethnic and socioeconomic groups into our sport - for the health and future of our sport. It's the best way to protect archery from going the way of boxing, horse racing and sailing. 




> If Asian Americans are not underrepresented( meaning Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc) what else are you looking for?


Well, I guess it's diverse enough through your eyes then? That statement makes it pretty easy to see where you're coming from, and I think you need to broaden your thinking a little bit.

Again, for the past *50 YEARS* - to my knowledge - we've not had a person of color represent us in archery at either the Olympic games or the World Championships. To me, that illustrates just how little diversity our sport has, at the highest profile events.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> Here is another facet of the topic that might be in play; the individualistic nature of the sport.
> 
> I managed a soccer team that was loosely affiliated with my former employer for many years. Because that employer recruited internationally, we had a diverse group of players already, but needed to draw players from the community at large to fill out the roster.
> 
> ...


That's a great observation. We lose a LOT of kids to team sports every year, regardless of their backgrounds. The draw of being part of a team simply isn't something our sport offers at the moment. This may be an example of what I mean when I say our sport is boring and needs to keep up with the times. Adding the mixed team event surely helped, but until we have archers who can enter JUST the team events (like Tennis), this won't really change very fast.

Something I've thought of for some years now is that every major archery event (USAT ranking events, and Nationals) should be REQUIRED to have a demonstration area where passers-by can at least TRY archery. I know, I know, they wouldn't be USArchery members, but that's another topic for that "other" thread... But how great would it be if all those folks walking by the tournament and stopping to look were actively encouraged to TRY shooting a bow? It's not hard. Our JOAD club in Illinois ran the archery booth for the state game dept. for years, and we pulled people out of the state fair crowd by the hundreds and put a bow in their hands. We would invite sometimes 2000 people in a weekend to shoot in our tent. Many of them had never even tried archery. This is where Genesis bows shine, and where I really learned to appreciate what a great tool those are for bringing folks into the sport.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> That's a great observation. We lose a LOT of kids to team sports every year, regardless of their backgrounds. The draw of being part of a team simply isn't something our sport offers at the moment. This may be an example of what I mean when I say our sport is boring and needs to keep up with the times. Adding the mixed team event surely helped, but until we have archers who can enter JUST the team events (like Tennis), this won't really change very fast.
> 
> Something I've thought of for some years now is that every major archery event (USAT ranking events, and Nationals) should be REQUIRED to have a demonstration area where passers-by can at least TRY archery. I know, I know, they wouldn't be USArchery members, but that's another topic for that "other" thread... But how great would it be if all those folks walking by the tournament and stopping to look were actively encouraged to TRY shooting a bow? It's not hard. Our JOAD club in Illinois ran the archery booth for the state game dept. for years, and we pulled people out of the state fair crowd by the hundreds and put a bow in their hands. We would invite sometimes 2000 people in a weekend to shoot in our tent. Many of them had never even tried archery. This is where Genesis bows shine, and where I really learned to appreciate what a great tool those are for bringing folks into the sport.


While I agree with you on having the demonstration/try out option, some venues are not able to handle that directly in the vicinity of the tournament itself.

I know that the Ben Avery Shooting Facility (current home of the Arizona Cup) would have to petition the Arizona Game and Fish Department to use the NASP only short distance range (across the street from the FITA range) to do any sort of thing like that.

You and I both have been to Hamilton many times. Where would we put it? Especially with the growth the JOAD Nationals side is seeing...we'd have to put it in the back end where the staff parking would be.

I love the idea...but I don't know where the tournament officials would be able to put the bales.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beast, you're thinking of having them shooting further than I'm suggesting, maybe? 

What we had at the S. Illinois state fair, and the S. Illinois hunting and fishing days was a simple tent, with straw bales at the back of it and a arrow net behind that. The bales were only 10 yards. In front of the bales we had a few 3D animal targets, but those would of course be optional, esp. at an outdoor target event.

The entire operation takes up less room than the typical home footprint. It could easily be done at the end of the shooting line, or behind the shooting line in the opposite direction (in Hamilton, I'd put it between the field and the parking area so that passers-by could step in and shoot a few.

At A&M, they have room between the field and the parking lot.

It would need to be in a heavy traffic area, somewhere between the parking lot and the shooting line.

Chances are, that in addition to passers-by and casual observers, we'd also get parents, grandparents and brothers and sisters and friends to try it out while they're there at the event supporting their archer.

Again, what we did was very, very simple, and yet we had literally thousands of inexperienced archers shooting in just days with no more than 3 of us staffing the shooting line.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I'm still waiting for the first Korean American to break out and make an international team some day. It's going to happen. You gotta know it is.


 Why? do you think Korean Americans have more ability? How do Afro Americans do? I mean, it couldn't possibly be that people of certain races make better archers and thats why you don't see diversity at the highest level, could it? Do you see huge diversity at the highest level of any sport?


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## alaz (Mar 8, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Gwen, thank you for speaking up and sharing your story.
> 
> If schools won't allow archery - and I respect their decision not to - then what about YMCA or city parks and rec programs? I know a woman who works closely with a city park and rec. program near Houston, and her counterpart who helps run the archery program is African American. While not "inner city" they do have an opportunity to reach into more diverse populations of kids than many suburban or middle America programs do.
> 
> ...


http://www.outdooralabama.com/education/archery/

There are schools that offer archery. While in no way am I suggesting that YMCA and parks and rec should not, I am suggesting that school is a central location and has the ability to reach everyone equally.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

UKNick said:


> Why? do you think Korean Americans have more ability? How do Afro Americans do? I mean, it couldn't possibly be that people of certain races make better archers and thats why you don't see diversity at the highest level, could it? Do you see huge diversity at the highest level of any sport?


Speaking from experience...you see a cultural meme rearing its head.

In Korea, being an archer is a job. A good one too, that pays decent and is respectable. If a child gets chosen for an Archery academy at a young age, it's okay because the job is good, and success is shown in the job itself plus your score. And who wouldn't want to be featured in a Hyundai commercial?

Coming back to America, parental and family influence in the Oriental family is still huge. Once emigrated here in America, it's plainly obvious that a paid sports figure that can make a decent wage is in the rarefied air status. So, parents and the extended family will guide (sometimes brutally so) the emphasis on education and being a worker drone.

I'm the 5th generation here in the United States on my mom's side. My genetic background is Chinese on my mom's side, and theoretically Chinese (or some other Oriental race) on my dad's side...we don't know much because he was adopted by a second generation Chinese family here in the United States. 

I get grief by aunts, uncles, and even my mom for having Spencer shoot archery as a competition sport. All of them see that he's good, he enjoys the heck out of it, but they don't see a future in it, so they tend to attempt to guide Spencer away to more "mainstream" sports. This is the fourth generation here attempting to do this massaging of the outcome of the sixth generation.

On my dad's side of the family, Spencer and I got some odd comments when we did our trip to El Salvador...saying it was bringing unwanted attention to a kid at that age.

This type of influence in my own microcosm is indicative of some other Oriental families. Using Lindsay Pian, Spencer, Karissa and Nathan Yamaguchi as examples, all of their parents and the kids have bucked the trend within their own cultural memes. Not necessarily bucking away from their own families...just the memes they have had or currently have.

Until more Oriental families flush out some of these cultural memes from the homeland, it will be a while before you see a large amount of ethnic Oriental archers hitting the higher levels of the sport here in the United States. You will see some trickle in, but it won't be large amounts for a while.

And Lindsay is the closest we've seen to an ethnic archer reaching the top of Olympic Archery here in the United States so far.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

UKNick said:


> Why? do you think Korean Americans have more ability? How do Afro Americans do? I mean, it couldn't possibly be that people of certain races make better archers and thats why you don't see diversity at the highest level, could it? Do you see huge diversity at the highest level of any sport?


For none of the reasons you suggest actually.

Simply for the fact that our US senior teams have been the exclusive domain of the Anglo-archer for what appears to be 50 years, and it needs to change. Our sport, at it's highest levels, does not reflect the diversity of our Nation. For that reason, we are not going to attract as many minorities to our sport, and that means lots of people will be missing out on a great sport that can really add a lot to the quality of a person's life (ask Gwen).

John


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## Gwen Sheppard (May 11, 2012)

Hi John,
First I would set reasonable goals and expectations. There is no way to help ALL the kids. If you want to introduce some kids to archery, got to the park where a lot of kids play basketball. Set up some bails and have your kids shoot. Also make sure you have a cheering squad there while they are shooting. Don't make it a quit it demo. People congregate around a crowd having fun. Then let bystanders try there hand at it. You will always have one or two buddies talking smack about who can hit the target. Make it a competition between the two. Make it loud. Make it fun. Then start talking to them about your program. 
Couldn't hurt to try.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great idea Gwen. I'll talk to the city and see if we can set up a few demo at the parks in town. Okay - park. ha, ha. It's a really small town. 

John


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> For none of the reasons you suggest actually.
> 
> Simply for the fact that our US senior teams have been the exclusive domain of the Anglo-archer for what appears to be 50 years, and it needs to change. Our sport, at it's highest levels, does not reflect the diversity of our Nation. For that reason, we are not going to attract as many minorities to our sport, and that means lots of people will be missing out on a great sport that can really add a lot to the quality of a person's life (ask Gwen).
> 
> John


 Ok, but WHY do you think a korean amerian "gotta" make the national team? Why do I "gotta know that" ? the implication wether you realise or not is that YOU think koreans have an advantage - if thats your opinion, it answers you own question about why we don't see more diversity at a higher level. If I'm wrong, tell me why you think a korean "gotta" make the team.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

UKNick said:


> Ok, but WHY do you think a korean amerian "gotta" make the national team? Why do I "gotta know that" ? the implication wether you realise or not is that YOU think koreans have an advantage - if thats your opinion, it answers you own question about why we don't see more diversity at a higher level. If I'm wrong, tell me why you think a korean "gotta" make the team.


Your assumptions are not allowing you to interpret my comments the way they are intended, I'm afraid.

When I say "I gotta believe" - it's based solely on the current numbers. Nothing else. In other words, just from a pure statistical likelihood, an Asian-American will be the first minority to represent the U.S. in an Olympic or World Championship event in 50 years. Our U.S. Outdoor Nationals was filled in the Cadet and Junior ranks with Asian-American archers, so it only stands to reason that in another 10 years, a few of those kids will be representing us internationally. They already have at the Jr. games, but as I've seen many times already, even the most talented minority junior archers have yet to break through the glass ceiling and make it in the adult ranks. 

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to run the stats on Sr. USAT membership. That would be very revealing, I'd think.

You also seem somewhat defensive about this topic. As if this may be an issue discussed already in your country as well? I don't know.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

In an area diverse of culture not necessarily color, as people are just people here, I participated in a few events to introduce archery to local youth over the past year. A three day session was held for the YMCA we were volunteered as part of a college Marketing class with 28 young participants. Michigans Upper Peninsula State Fair has a DNR Pocket Park set up permanently with two shooting ranges, air rifle, and archery, where we volunteered throughout the week. I don't know the numbers but many 100's of kids and parents pass through and try archery every year. Even the Michigan DNR Director stopped in to shoot with us and talk about getting youth into archery.

Our last introductory event was held at a local sportsman club at their youth day where we volunteered at the archery range. As a well established yearly event this is well attended with over 350 young participants during the one day event. Prizes were donated from local businesses and every kid that was a shooter in the different events were awarded prizes.

Through relentless involvement of introducing all kids to archery diversity will come.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Through relentless involvement of introducing all kids to archery diversity will come.


I disagree.

Here's why - 

We've been doing this for decades. And we've even had "Hollywood" helping us too. This latest surge is just another in a long line of movies that have featured archery, and in every case, we saw a temporary boost in interest. This latest one will most likely last longer because of the "industry" that these sequels will create, but it's not the first time we've had this kind of help.

But - in each case, look at the actors who are using the bows. J. Lawrence as Katniss, Orlando Bloom as Legolas, Kevin Costner as Robin Hood, even Geena Davis. All white. Hollywood is not really helping us with diversity (but then, they profit from perpetuating and creating stereotypes, so why should I be surprised?).

Like you, I've used sportsman's shows and DNR facilities to introduce literally thousands of kids and adults to archery. BUT, let's look at the demographic that normally attends sportsman's shows and uses DNR facilities! We cannot expect to reach "all kids" by using these readily-available platforms. As great as they are, their participants are pretty much from only one slice of the pie.

I also feel that socio-economic diversity is the low hanging fruit. We can count on that even without ethnic diversity. I mean, forever we've had the archer with the ebay bow shooting next to the sponsored archer. I see it all the time. It's great to see - not saying it's not an important part of diversity in our sport, but it's one we have to a much greater degree than ethnic diversity.

Whether we like it or not, people make a lot of their decisions still on appearance. If they don't see anyone that looks like them doing something, chances are, they won't do either. We can't expect every person to have the personal courage it takes to step over that line. Instead, we in the community already, need to be extending our hand across that line, and making sure they know they are invited.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Another major problem I see is the local pro shops where sticker shock comes into play! Anyone wanting to try archery has nothing to choose from other than a minimum of a $300 investment in bow alone. I know the deals are out there but with local shops wanting to sell high end equipment as the profit margin is higher how does this help in bringing in diversity?

Kids always ask how much does our equipment cost at a demonstration, always! Smart money would invest in a second catalog dedicated to introductory equipment for inspiring young archers to hand out at these events. Although shop local is a big deal in this area, online and catalog purchases are the only way to find what we need.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Kids always ask how much does our equipment cost at a demonstration, always!


You are absolutely right. At every demo I've ever shot (and by now that's well over 100), one of the first questions is always "what does a bow like that cost?"

This usually comes from one of the parents, because most kids have no idea what things cost (because they don't have to worry about it since they usually have no money anyway!) but it's still a tough question to answer, esp. since I was in their shoes once, and luxury items like a good target bow, were completely out of the question, whether they were "cool" or not.

Most of the parents of the archers near my home are willing to pay $ for a hunting bow, but not as much for a target bow. That's because the whole act of hunting is seen as more valuable to the entire family. The parents get something out of it, as do the kids, and it is a way to put food on the table in addition to making lifetime memories. So if there is a choice to be made, usually the hunting bow comes first, and then if there is money left over, the target bow.

Your idea to have a seperate catalog to hand out for affordable entry level gear isn't a bad one. But too many get discouraged when I tell them the the bow I just used to shoot those balloons at 70 meters will cost them close to $1500. I don't even mention the arrows.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

So can we agree that the biggest barrier in diversity is not the sport itself but the cultural and social imbalance of wealth in this country. People of color have suffered the most during these hard economic times. There may be more interest in the sport than one would assume but the initial investment of gear rather than a meal on the table, or paying a bill, has discouraged ethnic diversity. I know that I had far more disposable income thirty years ago than now, at fifty and a college student I will graduate making less money than was made twenty years ago. Take a good look at unemployment rates and income levels based on race. Although unemployment rates only apply to those who have actively sought work in the last month the numbers are scewed as many have given up hope of finding gain-full employment. Therein lies the answer of diversity within sports.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

W8lon,

I don't really like it when folks automatically want to make the argument that economic imbalance = ethnic imbalance. Statements like "people of color have suffered most" - to me - are based on a big assumption, and really are unnecessary to make. Not only that, but they run the risk of doing even more damage by furthering the stereotype that already exists.

I would only agree with you if it were the case that (for example) a caucasian, asian, indian, african, hispanic and native american person of equal income levels, all felt equally welcome at one of our events. Looking around, I don't believe that would be the case.

I think it may serve us well to separate the socioeconomic diversity and ethnic diversity in our sport, even if there is SOME connection. We can't do anything about the connection that exists in this country between the two. But we can do something about the lack of ethnic diversity in our sport.

While I'm usually the first to exclaim how archery at the most competitive level, is a wealthy person's game, I also know (because I are one!) that we do in fact have a great deal of socioeconomic diversity already in the sport. Maybe not at the National level (but even there too in some cases) but especially the state and local level. Every year at our state championships, I shoot with people that struggle to pay their rent or tuition, and shoot bows that are somtimes 20 or 30 years old. But they are there, shooting every year. 

So while there are ways we could improve access for people of all socioeconomic scales, there is far more room for improvement, in my opinion, for increased ethnic diversity within our sport.

Removing the economics, let's imagine a scenario where a upper middle-class group of co-workers were at a business conference, and across the road on a large field, there was a major archery tournament going on. All week, this diverse group who were financially secure, would walk by those windows and look out over that field and watch the archery event. They would talk about it at breaks, and every one of them expressed interest in trying archery. The group had members who were of African, Asian, Indian, Middle-Eastern, European and Native American descent. 

1) Based on what they saw from those windows, who among them would feel the most welcome to walk across that street and ask how they could get started shooting archery? 

2) And for those who didn't feel that way, what will it take to make them feel welcome.

John


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> When I say "I gotta believe" - it's based solely on the current numbers. Nothing else. In other words, just from a pure statistical likelihood, an Asian-American will be the first minority to represent the U.S. in an Olympic or World Championship event in 50 years.


Korean Americans account for just 0.6% of the US population. Statistically, it would be very _un_likely if one ever made the squad based on pure numbers. As for defensive, no. Your assumptions are not etc etc :wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

UKNick said:


> Korean Americans account for just 0.6% of the US population. Statistically, it would be very _un_likely if one ever made the squad based on pure numbers. As for defensive, no. Your assumptions are not etc etc :wink:


If you were more familiar with what's going on in our junior and cadet ranks in the U.S., you'd understand my statistics. 

Carry on.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> If you were more familiar with what's going on in our junior and cadet ranks in the U.S., you'd understand my statistics.


Why? whats going on? are you getting disproportionately high numbers of promising Korean American junior and cadet archers? more than 0.6% of all junior and cadet archers in the US? what are these statistics of yours because i don't see them anywhere in this thread (that doesn't preclude it though, my eyes aren't what they were)

One other thing chap… calm down, I'm not attacking YOU just questioning your thinking a little:wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> more than 0.6% of all junior and cadet archers in the US?


Far more. Look up the results from the most recent U.S. Outdoor Nationals.



> One other thing chap… calm down, I'm not attacking YOU just questioning your thinking a little


The tone of your posts would suggest you have an ulterior motive, but I'll believe you if you say you don't. But don't worry. I'm plenty calm.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Far more. Look up the results from the most recent U.S. Outdoor Nationals.


 don't you have the stats to hand? its your point to make... "far more" and "look it up" don't really further the discussion much. If you can prove your assertion that would good but don't expect other people to do it for you.

Anyway, if your saying korean americans dominate US archery, it still answers your original question/point (not sure which it was) and yes the days of anglo american archers in the olympics could be numbered. Still would like some figures to back it up though.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah, there you go proving my point. 

It's pretty clear that you have an agenda and I'm not going to play your game... 



> Anyway, if your saying korean americans dominate US archery


 Never said that. You're trying to put words in my mouth now.



> Still would like some figures to back it up though.


 The figures are available for anyone to see, and they can draw their own conclusions.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Ah, there you go proving my point.
> 
> It's pretty clear that you have an agenda and I'm not going to play your game...
> 
> ...


No games, just simple questions on things you have posted. Your original post was half baked at best and you've said nothing factual or of note since - I was just trying to make sense of the thread. It seems your struggling to reconcile what you like to believe with what your learning to be true - your comment about a korean in the nation squad betrayed that quite clearly. Since then you have wriggled and tried to turn the table but its obvious you recognise that race is a big indicator of aptitude. This makes a nonsense of you sentiment that there _needs_ to be more diversity. I'm caucasian but it doesn't bother me that few caucasians reach the top of say heavyweight boxing or sprinting - I'm at ease with the fact that is no cultural diversity in those events… I respect the race that dominates them for their prowess. Stop thinking about race so much limb walker, don't judge, worry or strategise about the colour of peoples skin - your an archery coach you say, so just stick to that and you will sleep better (than you have recently anyway) and the race thing wil work it self out:wink:


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

MickeyBisco said:


> ...I look down the line and it's like the UN. I was actually thinking just the opposite... ....


I think the reason might be one of availability. In cities where the parks department has good public tennis courts, you can actually get a Vitas Gerulaitis or the Williams sisters. Where there are adequate basketball courts, you get Lebron et al. In California, you actually have many public archery ranges, hence the equal-opportunity-in-archery participation AND the high number of active archers in the USAA membership roles. Time and again, there are sterling examples of a JOAD being an over-producer of archery excellence, I think in great part simply because it is there, making it easy for kids to shoot. Hell, I used to have to drive my daughter an hour ONE WAY, just to get the chance to shoot. Once I bought a WhiteTail and set up a range on my street(use street view to check it out), her skills took off thanks in part to the "hey, want to shoot?" question being answered in less than 10 minutes by well, actually shooting.  We kept her gear on a red wagon, wheeled it all out and into place in just minutes - and the target stayed in place 24/7, as the deer hereabouts don't eat foam like they would straw. 
Anyway, kids are kids and like to play - you give them a street and a ball, they're playing stickball. Give them an archery range, a bow and arrows, and it doesn't really matter much where their forebears came from, they'll play. I am always bemused by the fact that the rest of the world looks on California as a bunch of tree-hugging reactionary fear-niks, yet they permit far more archery ranges in their cities than anywhere else I know of. Whut is up with that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> ince then you have wriggled and tried to turn the table but its obvious you recognise that race is a big indicator of aptitude


Pretty clear you're attempting to discredit me by putting words in my mouth. I would ask, why do you feel the need? And I find it humorous that you feel qualified to comment on the history of our sport in the U.S. Unless of course you shoot a lot of our tournaments? Otherwise, I'd say you're probably not qualified.

I'd surely love to know the point of your participation in this thread, other than to discredit my assertions. I'd also love to know how you can explain that for 50 years, the U.S. has not had a minority represent us internationally at the Olympics or senior World Championships. Is that true as well for the UK? If so, your agenda may be more obvious than you think.



> I am always bemused by the fact that the rest of the world looks on California as a bunch of tree-hugging reactionary fear-niks, yet they permit far more archery ranges in their cities than anywhere else I know of. Whut is up with that?


Ron, you make a great point. California, and to a degree, AZ, are leading the way in our sport. You and I both know the challenges we face here in our beloved home state...


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

UKNick, once one finds oneself deep in a foot-in-mouth situation, one generally might stop digging. Or something to that effect. 

Unlike you, I got curious enough to actually go LOOK at what THat PITA renegade archer was say'ing, by going and looking on the USA Archery Website, and I chose at random the Cadets Men Recurve results, which had 61 contestants that finished. (took me all of 60 seconds, including the pdf download - DUH) At least 16 of the 61 have names that appear to this hick from south Texas to be furrin in ancestral origins. (They are AMERICAN now, with whatever hyphenation they might choose to use). I'd say that is substantially different than what, 0.6% ??? 
As for your "I'm at ease with the fact that is no cultural diversity in those events…" you may have put the finger on the nail right there...


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

TexARC said:


> UKNick, once one finds oneself deep in a foot-in-mouth situation, one generally might stop digging. Or something to that effect.
> 
> Unlike you, I got curious enough to actually go LOOK at what THat PITA renegade archer was say'ing, by going and looking on the USA Archery Website, and I chose at random the Cadets Men Recurve results, which had 61 contestants that finished. (took me all of 60 seconds, including the pdf download - DUH) At least 16 of the 61 have names that appear to this hick from south Texas to be furrin in ancestral origins. (They are AMERICAN now, with whatever hyphenation they might choose to use). I'd say that is substantially different than what, 0.6% ???
> As for your "I'm at ease with the fact that is no cultural diversity in those events…" you may have put the finger on the nail right there...


Incredible lol you want to offer up a a field of 61 to represent the demographic of a nation of 314 MILLION lol you sir are a JOKE!!! give me the TOTAL national breakdown not just some tiny numbers from some place or other you chose… all levels and divisions of participation or its worthless - its worse than limwalkers anecdotal approximations! 

As for "may have put your finger on it" thats was the intention.

I haven't put my foot in my mouth at all since all I've done is question the nonsense that is this entire thread. Its a limb walker brainfart no more.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

UKNick said:


> Incredible lol....


Hey, I forgot to turn on my TROLL sensor this morning. Engaging now. Ohhh, now I see.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

A quick look at the Asian population by state indicates that there is a MUCH higher ratio along the coastal states. Coincidentally, recurve archery is also more popular along the coasts, no? Why is it any surprise when compared to National statistics, there is a disproportionate ratio of Asians participating in recurve archery? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AA_Alone_or_in_Combination.jpg


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> As another aside, I was thinking today how even something as seemingly natural and unplanned as Brady Ellison's shaggy, country boy appearance is, in a way, welcoming a new demographic to our sport.
> 
> In many areas of archery, Olympic archery is viewed as the arena of the elitist. To many, visions of uptight, wealthy, half-athletes with heavy trust funds are what arise when the term "Olympic archer" is used.
> 
> ...


As someone coming from the Ivy league-old old family, I never saw archery that way. Squash-for sure-skeet-maybe, Polo absolutely-but archery? I think I am the only guy in the history of the Cincinnati "blue book" to be a serious archer after the 1920s day of archery golf that ladies at the exclusive country clubs participated in. . The great archers from Cincinnati, Darrell, Doug Brothers, Ann Clark, Nancy Vonderheide, and now the McLaughlin twins were not people who went to the big bucks prep schools. Charlie Pierson's fabled archery range was not a place where the debutantes hung out

true, people living on minimum wage aren't shooting archery for the most part. same with bowling or fishing. But an elitist sport-I don't think so.


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## LJOHNS (Dec 14, 2004)

Interesting comments here - I can't help you on the diversity thing. Where I live near SW PA/ North Central WV its mostly all white folks and red necks. However, our club is full of very nice welcoming people and we don't care what color your skin is or how much $ you have. 

I think before we can tackle the diversity - archery as a sport really needs some help. Around here there are very few clubs and other than 3D, and very little interest. WV has zero clubs shooting JOAD and very few archery clubs at all. The archery in schools program has some interest. I tell folks that I have my daughter shooting JOAD and they look at me funny and ask what it is. There has been increased interest thanks to Hollywood in the last couple of years so that, at least, is good. I had to really go looking to find a JOAD club in my area last year (45 min drive). Compared to other team sports there is hardly any real interest in competitive archery as a whole. That makes me sad... it is such a cool sport. Sorry, but in today's high tech world unless the parents really go looking for an archery club and care enough to get their kids involved you are not going to see diversity.

I am doing my part though! My daughter broke the 200 mark today - not bad for a 9 year old in her second year with a recurve!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, you're absolutely correct. But I myself didn't discover this truth until I was already a particpant at U.S. ranking events. The common opinion among (mostly white) traditional bowhunters in the U.S., and I'd even suggest that's bowhunters in general (in other words, the majority of bow-toters in this country) is that Olympic shooters are a bunch of country-club elitists. You and I both know this isn't the case. Far from it in fact, but that's still the stereotype among bowhunters. And if that's the stereotype among our own archery community, then one could only imagine it's worse among the general population. I would submit that the lack of diversity shown in the current "release your wild" campaign images -no matter how well intentioned- only serve to continue this stereotype. It almost appears as if a small group of A&F fashion models chose to pick up archery on their breaks between shoots... I can't believe we didn't take this opportunity to at least show the CURRENT level of diversity of youth in this sport. I see that as another missed opportunity, and an unfortunate oversight in a long series of them in our sport.

Like I said, we can do better, and IMO have both a social responsibility and a responsibility to the sport, to do better.

John


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Jim, you're absolutely correct. But I myself didn't discover this truth until I was already a particpant at U.S. ranking events. The common opinion among (mostly white) traditional bowhunters in the U.S., and I'd even suggest that's bowhunters in general (in other words, the majority of bow-toters in this country) is that Olympic shooters are a bunch of country-club elitists. You and I both know this isn't the case. Far from it in fact, but that's still the stereotype among bowhunters. And if that's the stereotype among our own archery community, then one could only imagine it's worse among the general population. I would submit that the lack of diversity shown in the current "release your wild" campaign images -no matter how well intentioned- only serve to continue this stereotype. It almost appears as if a small group of A&F fashion models chose to pick up archery on their breaks between shoots... I can't believe we didn't take this opportunity to at least show the CURRENT level of diversity of youth in this sport. I see that as another missed opportunity, and an unfortunate oversight in a long series of them in our sport.
> 
> Like I said, we can do better, and IMO have both a social responsibility and a responsibility to the sport, to do better.
> 
> John


We don't have a social responsibility or any other responsibility to recruit people based on their race. I have no idea why or what caused you to delve into this subject as it relates to archery, but it seems to me that you just want to broach any subject that get a rise out of your fellow archers. I can't fathom why anyone would espouse the idea of recruiting new archers based on their race. Archery is not a frontline sport that gets a lot of recognition on a regular basis. Most kids emulate sports heroes from the more popular action sports and consequently, the more athletic of them would be hardpressed to lure into the world of archery. Is there any real need to stir this pot up except to see your words in print? What's next, John, busing kids from one JOAD to another to get the percentages proportional. Ridiculous! You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> We don't have a social responsibility or any other responsibility to recruit people based on their race.


I respectfully disagree. And there's a difference between recruiting, and taking steps to ensure everyone feels welcome. A perfect example are the images in the "release your wild" campaign. Someone should have ensured the faces in those photos represented at LEAST the current diversity within the sport. Otherwise, we just perpetuate the same stereotype, that the sport of Olympic archery is for the pretty white kids, which all of us in the sport already know isn't the case at all.



> but it seems to me that you just want to broach any subject that get a rise out of your fellow archers.


Not so. When you are around a sport for a while and see patterns, it's impossible to ignore them. I can assure you I'm not the only one who feels this way. Not by a longshot. The supportive comments I've gotten for opening the conversation have far outnumbered the ones from those who prefer the status quo.



> Archery is not a frontline sport that gets a lot of recognition on a regular basis.


Irrelevant to the discussion.



> the more athletic of them would be hardpressed to lure into the world of archery.


Particularly if they don't feel welcome because they don't see anyone who looks like them in the sport.



> Ridiculous! You should be ashamed of yourself.


Sorry. I'm not. I could just as easily say you should accept the fact that it's not 1955 anymore.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

John, my point being, why would you force our sport on anyone just to satisfy quotas. I don't know of any archer that I have been associated with who has ever related to me that they wanted to keep the sport lily white. I know you are coming at this more from a target background whereas I am coming more from a field archery history so , those experiences may differ, but I have never seen exclusion of any race into our sport so the 1955 comment certainly doesn't apply.Just an aside, In a few weeks I will be attending the NAFAC tournament in Florida. There are two van loads of friends coming down from D.C. and I am being picked up by Jim Brown and his wife at the airport. We will all be staying at the same motel, shooting the same tournament , and enjoying the Keys after the tourney. Jim and his wife and the 2 van loads of friends are all African American and I will be the only lily white Caucasian in the group. This is not a unique situation in the archery world I'm used to, and I have trouble believing it would be unique in the archery world you are accustomed to.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> John, my point being, why would you force our sport on anyone just to satisfy quotas


itbeso, I don't think you are reading the same posts as the rest of us. Nobody is trying to force archery on anybody, let alone to satisfy "quotas." That's just ridiculous and has never been suggested in this thread. It is hard to take your posts seriously when you are attacking things people never said and then telling them they should be ashamed of themselves.

Outreach and making archery welcoming to everybody is commonsense. And target archery is a niche sport. I think a lot of us who like target archery have an interest in making the sport appealing to a broad base of people so the sport we enjoy will continue in the US, so it must makes sense for so many reasons to want to include people of all kinds of backgrounds and help them with opportunities to reach their fullest potential in archery. And in this day and age there is just no reasonable excuse for the ATA not to have had a more diverse bunch cast for their photo shoot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> why would you force our sport on anyone just to satisfy quotas.


Warbow is correct. Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that. I have to deal with "quotas" (although the people who do the accounting aren't allowed to call them that) in my agency, and I have pretty strong feelings about how they are applied and generated. But again, nowhere have I suggested that, and I believe that approach is, if not outright wrong, then at least, unnecessary if the proper recruitment and awareness tools are used. But no, I'm not talking about quotas at all. I'm talking about awareness first, then simple actions that can make just enough difference to encourage folks to take a step towards our sport.

Please try to understand what I'm saying. That I feel it's time our sport better reflect the diversity of our nation, and there are EASY ways to help make that happen. But it's not going to happen if we just keep doing what we have always done. Who was it that said if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten? Well, what we've gotten so far is 50 years and counting of international teams that do not reflect the diversity of our country - a pretty shocking statistic when you consider how people from every conceivable background have had success at the highest levels in our sport on the international stage.

Again, we can do better, but in order to do better, we're going to have to first recognize what's causing this (the whole purpose of starting this thread - to open a few eyes and at LEAST start the conversation), and then take small steps that are easily available to any of us in the sport. Many of us are already doing these things but at least so far, they have not "trickled up" to the top of our sport. 

To further illustrate my point, simple statistics would be easy to produce, but then, that would quickly start to smell like quotas and I'm not interested in that. I think common sense and a good 360-degree look around is all that's needed for folks to do the right thing here, and maybe find small ways to grow our sport in all ethnic groups in this country.

Texas as with most border states, has a large hispanic population. Why do we not see that reflected in our tournaments? All I'm asking is that we recognize that, and then take the steps necessary to grow the sport in that direction, because it is not only the right thing to do, but it's a area of growth that we haven't really moved into so far. 

What's it going to take? Well, it would probably help if each of the heroes in the past 3 or 4 Hollywood films that featured archery were someone they could relate to. I mean, Wesley Snipes didn't have the bow in "BLADE" - Jessica Biel did. Sometimes, little things like this make more of a difference that people realize.

John


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Warbow said:


> itbeso, I don't think you are reading the same posts as the rest of us. Nobody is trying to force archery on anybody, let alone to satisfy "quotas." That's just ridiculous and has never been suggested in this thread. It is hard to take your posts seriously when you are attacking things people never said and then telling them they should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> Outreach and making archery welcoming to everybody is commonsense. And target archery is a niche sport. I think a lot of us who like target archery have an interest in making the sport appealing to a broad base of people so the sport we enjoy will continue in the US, so it must makes sense for so many reasons to want to include people of all kinds of backgrounds and help them with opportunities to reach their fullest potential in archery. And in this day and age there is just no reasonable excuse for the ATA not to have had a more diverse bunch cast for their photo shoot.


Warbow, I am reading the same posts as you are, I'm just not a political correctness guy like you are.I've only been in archery for 44 years, but I've never seen anything but welcoming arms for new people to the sport. If I read your post correctly, and I do, you are saying that archery as we know it just isn't appealing to a broad(?) base of people so we should somehow change it to appeal to people who haven't shown the least interest in trying it? Or are you saying that we should put a token(insert whatever race you see fit) in a photo just to give the appearance of someone or something that isn't necessarily reflective of our sport. Personally, I have a hard time taking anything you post seriously as , in my opinion, political correctness doesn't even come close to equating to real life.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Warbow is correct. Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that. I have to deal with "quotas" (although the people who do the accounting aren't allowed to call them that) in my agency, and I have pretty strong feelings about how they are applied and generated. But again, nowhere have I suggested that, and I believe that approach is, if not outright wrong, then at least, unnecessary if the proper recruitment and awareness tools are used. But no, I'm not talking about quotas at all. I'm talking about awareness first, then simple actions that can make just enough difference to encourage folks to take a step towards our sport.
> 
> Please try to understand what I'm saying. That I feel it's time our sport better reflect the diversity of our nation, and there are EASY ways to help make that happen. But it's not going to happen if we just keep doing what we have always done. Who was it that said if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten? Well, what we've gotten so far is 50 years and counting of international teams that do not reflect the diversity of our country - a pretty shocking statistic when you consider how people from every conceivable background have had success at the highest levels in our sport on the international stage.
> 
> ...


John, you don't have to say the word "quota" for everyone to know what you are espousing. The rest of your arguments are moot. There is the same opportunity for members of any ethnic group that there were for me, to get themselves involved in the archery world. What the do gooders of the world don't quite understand is that, not everyone has an interest in shooting archery, not everyone is interested in living in racially mixed neighborhoods, not everyone is interested in being disarmed, not everyone is interested in having mandated healthcare ( some would rather take those premium payments and buy boats, atvs, RVs, and a slew of other things, then complain that they can't afford healthcare. You need to pick your fights more carefully, you , in my opinion, dilute your credibility by constantly being on the attack.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I started to respond, but I won't bother. Since your rant after the field event, there's nothing I could say that you would agree with anyway.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I started to respond, but I won't bother.


I'll drink to that:darkbeer:


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

TexARC said:


> Hey....


go away nobody likes you. 


:wink:JOKE


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Perhaps discussions about racial diversity belong in the forum where politics and religion are debated since the topic of racial diversity applies to all segments of society. There is nothing discussed in this thread that is unique to archery.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> Perhaps discussions about racial diversity belong in the forum where politics and religion are debated since the topic of racial diversity applies to all segments of society. There is nothing discussed in this thread that is unique to archery.


I have to disagree. This isn't a generic discussion about race, and it isn't about government or quotas. It is a discussion *specific to USA Archery and target archery*, so the FITA forum makes perfect sense. And there really wasn't anything political about it until one poster posted utterly reflexive posts that really don't pertain to the specifics of the thread (say the word "race" in a thread and he kicks "They are coming to get your guns!!!"). If you'd like to start a generic, and political thread about race equality and such over in the A&E forum, rather than talk here about WA, USA Archery, JOAD, ATA then you can certainly do so.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> Perhaps discussions about racial diversity belong in the forum where politics and religion are debated since the topic of racial diversity applies to all segments of society. There is nothing discussed in this thread that is unique to archery.


Hear. Hear.:darkbeer:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I started to respond, but I won't bother. Since your rant after the field event, there's nothing I could say that you would agree with anyway.


John, why is it that when someone disagrees with you, THEY, are ranting? When you get off your soapbox and actually talk to something that pertains to archery, there have been several things that I agree with you on. Topics like this, don't belong in this forum.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think this thread served it's purpose. Without opening the posts from the two on my "ignore" list, I'm going to close it.

Thanks to all those who had positive contributions.


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