# 3D Archery "shotgun Starts"



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

I do think this is the only way to truly have afair playing ground.


Do it just like the ASA. If you want to shoot for fun. Thats great, but if your competing to win the class. Pair up and shot with everyone.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

LOVE EM...

Hate the left coast thingy...:wink:


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

DB, could you explain the details of the shotgun start?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Shotgun start*



Doc said:


> DB, could you explain the details of the shotgun start?


Everyone shows up at the same time.
Groups are paired up and everyone starts at the same time.
No buddy shooting:wink: 

JUst seems to make the sport fair. It is a compitititon.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Everyone shows up at the same time.
> Groups are paired up and everyone starts at the same time.
> No buddy shooting:wink:
> 
> JUst seems to make the sport fair. It is a compitititon.


So if this is the case...how long do you wait to get shooting? If the shoot starts at 9 a.m., and everybody shows up, how are groups selected? Also what decides when you actually start shooting. If there are 30 groups and you are in group 29 or 30, do you have to wait around for everybody else to start ahead of you? I haven't shot an ASA event, but quite a few IBO events and understand the need for this type of system to prevent "buddy shooting".


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

If the shoot starts at 10 am.... then everyone has to be on the stake before 10 Am...


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## NE1C_my_arrow (Apr 17, 2006)

They don't do very many around here and I'm not sure how it's done everywhere else, but here we can shoot with buddies but usually no more than one pair. They then pair you with at least two other people you don't know. Under certain circumstances they sometimes let you have three people that know each other, but there always has to be one stranger in the group. Groups are drawn lottery style.

As far as how they start, every group of shooters is given a target number to start on and you just go from there. Everyone starts at the same time. Like if you start on target 5, you then procede to target 6 and so on and when you come back around to the start you end up shooting targets 1 through 4 as your last targets. Ideally, you have shooters both in front of and behind you so the chances of cheating are brought down even further since people on either side will be watching. Also, everyone ends at approximately the same time as well so you don't end up waiting around forever to see how you placed.


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## J-Dunlap (Feb 26, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> I do think this is the only way to truly have afair playing ground.
> 
> 
> Do it just like the ASA. If you want to shoot for fun. Thats great, but if your competing to win the class. Pair up and shot with everyone.


that is the only way to go


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## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

1st group on stake 1
2nd group on stake 2
3rd group on stake 3........................

Everyone starts at the same time, but not the same target.


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

It would be nice if the IBO would try something like this at least once. I don't go to many big 3-d's because I just don't have the time. I usually only get Sunday off so if I were to shoot I would have to do it in one day.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

LastCall said:


> 1st group on stake 1
> 2nd group on stake 2
> 3rd group on stake 3........................
> 
> Everyone starts at the same time, but not the same target.


OK...now I understand...I was a little confused with that respect...makes sense now and sounds like a much better system than is currently in the IBO. How are the groups selected? Randomly? Draw names from a hat?


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## MoBowman (Nov 5, 2002)

Groups are normally slected randomly, Deermans uses the shotgun start on most of their shoots. May I add it is also good to have 2 sets of score cards, and 2 poeple scoring in the group.



MoBowman ```--------->


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## 1wayin (Mar 26, 2006)

The problem I see with shotgun starts is this. If there are 30 plus groups shooting you have to have a 1a,1b,2a,2b so on. I have seen enough golf tournaments done like this to realize there will be one group that holds everything up. And then you have multiple groups say 6 or 7 waiting on one group. Also when does the casual guys that are just there to shoot for fun get in on the action? Do they have to wait until everyone shooting for money is done?Now if you didn't have more than 30 total groups including the casual guys then the shotgun start would be ok but if you have more than 30 I don't see it working.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*If there to many groups*



1wayin said:


> The problem I see with shotgun starts is this. If there are 30 plus groups shooting you have to have a 1a,1b,2a,2b so on. I have seen enough golf tournaments done like this to realize there will be one group that holds everything up. And then you have multiple groups say 6 or 7 waiting on one group. Also when does the casual guys that are just there to shoot for fun get in on the action? Do they have to wait until everyone shooting for money is done?Now if you didn't have more than 30 total groups including the casual guys then the shotgun start would be ok but if you have more than 30 I don't see it working.


That pretty easy. You have an early and late start times. Shotgun starts works great for the shooters and the volunteers working the event. Most shoots here dont have over 100 shooters. Five per stake on 20targets is a 100 shooters. Local shoots its never a promblem.
DB


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## 1wayin (Mar 26, 2006)

Yeah that is why I said under 30 groups(We always shoot 30 targets around here) wouldn't be a problem. But I see the early and late time would work. Also would allow the people that go to church a time to shoot.


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## 300MAG (Nov 26, 2005)

*People who ignore the Stake assignments*

Even at the ASA there is always those individuals who ignore there target stake assignment and shoot with their buddy. It happens all the time.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Dan, how many times do you have to bring this up, 1 thread a week? When was your last rant on this thread, 2 or 3 weeks ago now?

If you want to drive away the local shooters from the local clubs, by all mean go to a shotgun start.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

*reylamb*

Hey if you don't like it don't read it! And he's not trying to run off all the local shooters. Most little locals don't worry that much about it because its for fun, practice or a trophy. We're talking more about Money rounds, state qualifiers, state championships, regional tournies and national events. We need to have a more understanding of the conversasion before throwing in our 2 cents.:zip:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Whats your promblem*



reylamb said:


> Dan, how many times do you have to bring this up, 1 thread a week? When was your last rant on this thread, 2 or 3 weeks ago now?
> 
> If you want to drive away the local shooters from the local clubs, by all mean go to a shotgun start.



Im talking about a fair playing field. You have a promblem with that. Locals want to sign up and shoot for compititon. Fine but lets have a fair playing ground and stop all the pencil pushing which keeps many from parpacipating in this sport. I can name many that dont shoot 3d because its just a honor system. Golf and other sports have ways to make the compitition fair. Always here Im just shooting for the fun, good then dont keep score and compete.


Just for your info. One of the best clubs we ever had in this state was shotgun start only. Never has there been a club that is any bigger sense so I know it can be done and guys will drive to shoot on fair playing field.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Golf is probably the ultimate honor sport, and I don't see the problems there.

We tried shotgun starts and our attendance dropped by 33% in our area. At local shoots with the real world happening folks just might not be able to be at the shoot at 9am, but they could be there at 10 or 11. In this area shotgun starts don't work.

I also don't see a problem with pencil pushing in this area, maybe it is an Oklahoma thing. If you know the guys that are pushing the pencils shoot with them. We did have 3 guys in this area that were questioned on their scores as their scores were generally above their shooting level. We now send club members out with those guys to keep score. In the event I don't have a club member to go with them I will follow their group and keep a rough score with my binos, and the pushers know it. Of the 3, 2 no longer shoot at all as we were hounding them too closely. Good riddance I say. 

Pencil pushing can be fixed if the local clubs want to put in the work to fix the problem. In this area for the local shoots, shotgun starts is not the answer.

On a side note Dan, are you a member of a club? Do you help the club with setup and tear down? Have you made recommendations to your club on how to fix the pencil pushing? 

Now, at national shoots, I agree, by all means they should be shotgun starts. That is 1 reason I do not and will not shoot IBO.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Why can't people just be honest?  

My range will be sticking with the show up and shoot with your buddies method. It's more fun that way. :wink:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> Why can't people just be honest?


Because it is suprising what folks will do for an $8 trophy.

I saw a club once that had a whole stack of older trophies sitting on a table with a sign on the table that read: "If you want a trophy bad enough to push a pencil to get it, take one of these." Granted, no one took a trophy, but it was funny as heck....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im not saying anyone has to do it this way. Im saying many of us want it.*



reylamb said:


> Golf is probably the ultimate honor sport, and I don't see the problems there.
> 
> We tried shotgun starts and our attendance dropped by 33% in our area. At local shoots with the real world happening folks just might not be able to be at the shoot at 9am, but they could be there at 10 or 11. In this area shotgun starts don't work.
> 
> ...



I have read many shooters that have known about shooters that push the pencil. Dont tell me it it dont happen in other states. If you dont think it will work, dont do it. It can work and does at ASA events. Its been proven it works. I actually think it will help promote other competitors. Appartently if they placed trhat sign there at that shoot it happens. Heck have a shotgun start and trickle start after the shotgun for shooters that want to shoot for fun. We trying to get a fair event and I do believe the compitition shooters will make the drive for a shotgun.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*If its just for fun*



sagecreek said:


> Why can't people just be honest?
> 
> My range will be sticking with the show up and shoot with your buddies method. It's more fun that way. :wink:


Dont keep score, dont give trophies. ASA is successfull because its fair. We are getting a good base of shooters here and many want a fair playing field.
Todays gas prices most of us want to go to events we know are managed and the event is as fair as it can be. Some of are events are paying money, thats why many of us want a fair events.
DB


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> I have read many shooters that have known about shooters that push the pencil. Dont tell me it it dont happen in other states. If you dont think it will work, dont do it. It can work and does at ASA events. Its been proven it works. I actually think it will help promote other competitors. Appartently if they placed trhat sign there at that shoot it happens. Heck have a shotgun start and trickle start after the shotgun for shooters that want to shoot for fun. We trying to get a fair event and I do believe the compitition shooters will make the drive for a shotgun.
> DB


The difference between big ASA shoots and local shoots is that the shooters are dedicating their weekend to be at and shoot the ASA's, not so at the local shoots. I am not going to cater to the minority of shooters and drive away the biggest group, the guys just out to have fun and sling some arrows. If you know who is pushing the pencil, fix it, shoot with them. 

You did not answer the other part of my question, do you work at or for a local club, or do you just whine about something not being fair? 

Are there pencil pushers out there? Sure there are, but they are easily identified and it is easily fixed. If we can do it any club can do it, if they want to put in the work.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Do I wrok for a local club or just whine*



reylamb said:


> The difference between big ASA shoots and local shoots is that the shooters are dedicating their weekend to be at and shoot the ASA's, not so at the local shoots. I am not going to cater to the minority of shooters and drive away the biggest group, the guys just out to have fun and sling some arrows. If you know who is pushing the pencil, fix it, shoot with them.
> 
> You did not answer the other part of my question, do you work at or for a local club, or do you just whine about something not being fair?
> 
> Are there pencil pushers out there? Sure there are, but they are easily identified and it is easily fixed. If we can do it any club can do it, if they want to put in the work.


I do as much for Oklahoma Archery as anyone here in the state. I help just about ever club here in my state in many ways. I just started a website to promote the NFAA and keep its membership going here in my state. JUst check the regional shoots and see who post ever club to promote them. Im envolved with the promotion of the ASA events. Im well known by lots of club owners and they diffiantly appreciate everyone input and we here in Oklahoma do work together. If you would like a list of names for references, Ill be glad to give them to you. Didnt realize you had me figure out. Maybe some here will testify to how much I do to promote archery here. Oklahoma archery is better than ever and its all of us working together, no one guy does it all. But we have it going good. We are always looking for improvement. I shoot field and all events, not just 3d and promote them all. Any other questions?
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Sad part about it.*



reylamb said:


> The difference between big ASA shoots and local shoots is that the shooters are dedicating their weekend to be at and shoot the ASA's, not so at the local shoots. I am not going to cater to the minority of shooters and drive away the biggest group, the guys just out to have fun and sling some arrows. If you know who is pushing the pencil, fix it, shoot with them.
> 
> You did not answer the other part of my question, do you work at or for a local club, or do you just whine about something not being fair?
> 
> Are there pencil pushers out there? Sure there are, but they are easily identified and it is easily fixed. If we can do it any club can do it, if they want to put in the work.


You know it happens and dont care. You would rather have an unfair shoot.
Then keep it that way. Dont act like it dont exist. I know exactly what you talking about some dont want shotgun starts and what your saying. What Im saying 3d can be more and grow if some would just open there minds and try new ideas. We and some of the clubs here in my state are working together to make it so much more than just a local events. Imigine that clubs working togehter for the good of all archers. Has it ever accured to you it can be shotugn and trickle both. It can be done. Everyone happy.
DB


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## HoodIN (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Dont keep score, dont give trophies. ASA is successfull because its fair. We are getting a good base of shooters here and many want a fair playing field.
> Todays gas prices most of us want to go to events we know are managed and the event is as fair as it can be. Some of are events are paying money, thats why many of us want a fair events.
> DB


Yea! But alot of us just like the practice and a day away from work spent with the guys doing what we can't get enough of. So why let someone who wants to cheat mess that up for us?? They know who they are and I'll bet they don't sleep as well at night as I do:wink:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> You know it happens and dont care. You would rather have an unfair shoot.
> Then keep it that way. Dont act like it dont exist. I know exactly what you talking about some dont want shotgun starts and what your saying. What Im saying 3d can be more and grow if some would just open there minds and try new ideas. We and some of the clubs here in my state are working together to make it so much more than just a local events. Imigine that clubs working togehter for the good of all archers. Has it ever accured to you it can be shotugn and trickle both. It can be done. Everyone happy.
> DB


Yup Dan, you have me figured out, I know it happens and I don't care because I like having unfair shoots, I love cheaters:embara: . Just for kicks and grins I go out before the shoots and hit every target with my personal rangefinder and only share that information with a select few:wink: , yes I like unfair shoots. You must be very very blissful. It does not happen on our range, at our club, and in our general area. It has in the past, we know who was pushing a pencil, we put a stop to it. All of the clubs in our circuit get together frequently to discuss these very issues. If we can do it and figure it out anyone can. How about I give you a list of around 50 guys for you to call that shoot at our club, and ask them if they know of or suspect anyone of pushing a pencil. I will PM you with the names of the guys that they will say are suspected of pushing pencils. I have DQ'd numerous shooters in the last 2 years for pushing pencils, and asked them to never come back. 

Again, if you know who is pushing the pencil, pony up and shoot with them. We had an individual level accussations of pencil pushing against a club member that had not been shooting very long because this newbie handed him his rear. The exact phrase was "there is no way he can shoot those scores, he has only been shooting for 2 years, there is no way he can beat me." He shot with the same individual at the next shoot, and got his rear handed to him once again. When I asked, hey I thought he could not beat you his response was, I guess I was wrong.

How can you do shotgun and walkup at the same time? Let's say I have to watch my kids the first thing in the morning and have dinner plans with the wife at 6pm. I could be at the shoot at 10 and make it home for dinner with my wife. If a shotgun start begins at 8am, just when can I shoot? I can't. I would have to wait until around 1 for the walkup start, but then I could not make dinner. I well, I guess I won't shoot. That is the real world scenario for the vast majority of shooters that attend local clubs on weekends, they get to the shoot when they can, when other obligations have been taken care of. When you have a shotgun start you are effectively saying, be here at x time or do not come at all. Yup, that helps grow archery.

Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of shooters at local shoots are not in it for the competition, are not in it for the $8 plaque or the few $$$$ for first place, they are in it for the enjoyment and fellowship of being around other archers? Again, should we as clubs cater to the shooters that are in it for the $$$$$$$$$?

If you really want to grow archery forget about trying to get the serious, competitive target shooters out at the local level. Instead, figure out how to get Joe Blow Bowhunter out there that cares less about winning, and currently cares less about shooting 3D. Those guys are not staying away because of shotgun starts and pencil pushers. They are staying away because it takes too long for the "serious competitors" to get around a course, which will also get someone DQ'd on our ranges.

Now, we will be hosting a state qualifier in June (maybe I gotta run that one by Brian Dansby and make sure the calendar is clear). The qualifier will be on Sat the regular club shoot on Sunday. Guess what, the qualifier will be shotgun start, but not because of pencil pushers. It will be shotgun start so that those of us that are at the club on Thursday evening, Friday evening, and Saturday morning setting up can get home at a decent time.


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

JAVI said:


> LOVE EM...
> 
> Hate the left coast thingy...:wink:


hey !!! shot gun starts are the way to go, we meet at 7 am, paired up and sent out to target and gun goes off at 8 am.if its a 2 day shoot , then 2 nd day you are grouped with your peirs.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Ill say this*

We are looking at many ways to increase particapation. We have classes for the average Joe. :wink: 

Many here have said they would like to see a shotgun start. Heck nothing wrong with shooting with other shooters and meeting other archers.:wink: I think it will happen here in some of not most of are larger shoots. 

But compeitive archery is growing here and we have many that want a fair playing field. Oklahoma archery is on the move and we always will be looking for ways to increase not only 3d but field and indoor and all archery.

Glad everyone in Ga. is 100% happy. I think we can build a compitive fair event and archers will come and shoot. I do think shotgun starts are a good thing. Even if the club officers pick the groups accordingly. Place the groups with shooters of there own class.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> We are looking at many ways to increase particapation. We have classes for the average Joe. :wink:
> 
> Many here have said they would like to see a shotgun start. Heck nothing wrong with shooting with other shooters and meeting other archers.:wink: I think it will happen here in some of not most of are larger shoots.
> 
> ...


Heck Dan, we have classes for everyone, but we only draw about 15% of the bowhunters in the area. The #1 most common complaint is time, as in it takes too much time to shoot 20 targets. 

Heck, we have pencil pushers indoors from crying out loud. We have guys that shoot their hunting bows indoors but will not come shoot 3D because of the time thing.

We have high payouts for the money classes, but that is not helping us get out Joe Blow Bowhunter. Shotgun starts will not fix it.

I doubt everyone in GA is happy, remember the old saying, you can't please everyone? Never have, never will. What you have to do is figure out how to make the majority of folks happy. Put a target 1 yard over the max and someone will complain. Have a branch inf ront of the head of a target someone will complain. Have the footing at the stake anything but 100% level, yup you guessed it, someone will complain. Put 14 turkeys on a course, someone will complain. If the water comes out of a hose, someone will complain. If it rains, someone will complain. If there is not a jar of dill pickles at the concession area, someone will complain. However, there has never been 1 single complaint about not having shotgun starts in this area. Not having shotgun starts allows more flexibility for everyone to be able to shoot within the limited-available time that they have, and allows folks to hit more than one club if they want to travel the 100 or so miles to do so.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I think we are going to try it*

Its worth a shot. Whos knows. Cant please everyone. Im sure the local events will stay with trickle starts.

But we are getting some serious money on some of are events and its attracting new shooters. When that happens you have to have a fair playing field. I have shot plenty of indoors and I have found its just about as fair as you will find. "I like that" Realize indoors is growing with record attendance while 3d isnt.

Today we had a group of nine of us today that jackpotted between are selves at a local shoot. We all want fair. Thats what we had today. We will group up again tommorrow and do it again.

Folks will always cheat, happens in all sports. Only they know the truth.


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## bowman78 (Oct 21, 2005)

*shotgun starts*

i could care less if the local shoots have a shotgun start. if they did participation would go down. i for one cannot make a local shoot at a certain time. the ibo on the other hand needs to implement the shotgun start. long waits and disorganization is the name of the game. went to oakridge and saw the results of their system and all i can say is, wow they have it down. very nice and organized. you can make plans and shoot at one of their tourneys.......thumbs up ASA....tim


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## 2 Ultras (Jul 7, 2005)

Interesting debate.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

*Bust groups*

In any case, we need to bust groups in trickle starts and shotgun starts. Throw in that odd person or 2 with that group of 3 buddies. Busting groups and doing it right keeps things about as fair as they can be and is a great way to meet new people. :wink:


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## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

I shoot a lot of IBO events and I will say at most of them they break groups. I meet new people at these shoots all the time by shooting in broken groups. 

Shotgun starts dont work for many people. My son and I shoot 3-d just about every weekend. He plays travel hockey and plays nearly year around. My daughter plays basketball and softball and my wife works sometimes on the weekends. My son and I have never been able to shoot an event that has a shotgun start because it always seems to conflict with out schedules. We already attend the IBO nation triple crown and worlds which makes us plan 4 full weekends to archery only. He is actually missing two hockey games to go to Bedford. He is able to do this because it is a very informal spring league that he is playing, but missing hockey is not usually acceptable. He plays at a very high level on very select teams. If it came down to having to chose between a shotgun start events and not being on an elite hockey team, sorry to say, archery would lose. Archery would lose big time too, because he is very talented. If he continues this year like he has been shooting, he will place very high at the national events. 

I agree that cheating in archery, or anything else for all that matters, just plain sucks. Breaking groups works as well as shotgun starts. 

If you are an avid shooter, dont you know most everyone at a shoot anyways? If you do this sport often and long enough, it becomes hard to shoot in a broken group, doesnt it? Especially when local shoots have 100 or so that attend. 

I'm glad that people want to get rid of cheaters, but I for one would not be able to shoot very often if everything was a shotgun start. 

I say that we all just carry one arrow in our quiver with a broadhead, and "shoot a cheater" when we see one. This will eliminate it once and for all.:wink:


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## Tom Patton (May 1, 2006)

*Honest Johns*

I am just getting into the sport of 3-D shooting. It seems to me that there is a lot of oportunity for the dishonest guy to possibly cheat. I have not been to any big 3-D shoots and was wondering exactly what is done to keep the dishonest guy from cheating. If a fellow continuously shoots a 300 score do they ever have him shoot a few arrows at a said target to prove he can shoot a 10 ring everytime? I am in N.W. Ohio and would like to attend a larger shoot where there are cash payouts for high scores. Could someone let me know of any such 3-D shoots in my area.
Thanks for the info


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Two orgnaozations*



Tom Patton said:


> I am just getting into the sport of 3-D shooting. It seems to me that there is a lot of oportunity for the dishonest guy to possibly cheat. I have not been to any big 3-D shoots and was wondering exactly what is done to keep the dishonest guy from cheating. If a fellow continuously shoots a 300 score do they ever have him shoot a few arrows at a said target to prove he can shoot a 10 ring everytime? I am in N.W. Ohio and would like to attend a larger shoot where there are cash payouts for high scores. Could someone let me know of any such 3-D shoots in my area.
> Thanks for the info


IBO.Net is the website for IBO. Bedford, Indiana is next weekend
ASAarchery.com is the ASA website Most there shoots are south east part of US.


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

*Pencil Pushing*

I agree it is a problem. At our local club it seems to be a problem. We do everything on the honor system. Shoot when you want with who you want but I think it might me time for a change. About a month ago we had a couple guys who normally shoot in the 250s or 260s shoot together with no one else. One shot a 314 and the other shot a 317. I don't know if they cheated or not, maybe they had a really good day but it certainly did cause quite a stir. This could all be avoided if groups were busted or with a shotgun start. I however am not a fan of the shotgun start. I work 3rd Shift on weekends and usually don't make it to the range on Sunday's until 1 pm or so. It does get irritating when you shoot a good score and come in and find out that someone who is'nt the greatest shot beat you by 10 points. This is one reason I quit shooting the bowhunters class at our local shoots. I now shoot MBR and around here it is probably the toughest class to shoot in but I know just about everyone that shoots that class and know that they don't cheat. Not that I'm going to win much but it is a competiton and I am a very competitive person. I can handle loosing (maybe not very well) but I don't like being cheated.


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## Northforker (Oct 11, 2004)

Tom Patton said:


> I am just getting into the sport of 3-D shooting. It seems to me that there is a lot of oportunity for the dishonest guy to possibly cheat. I have not been to any big 3-D shoots and was wondering exactly what is done to keep the dishonest guy from cheating. If a fellow continuously shoots a 300 score do they ever have him shoot a few arrows at a said target to prove he can shoot a 10 ring everytime? I am in N.W. Ohio and would like to attend a larger shoot where there are cash payouts for high scores. Could someone let me know of any such 3-D shoots in my area.
> Thanks for the info


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Great Lake Shootout XII - Hosted by Gem City Outdoorsmen
McKean, PA
I-90 to Exit 18 (Sterrettania Rd.) turn right to West Rd. turn left. on Peffer Rd. turn right to Van Camp Rd. turn left. Gem City Outdoorsmen's Club is on the right. OR from I-79N to McKean Exit on to West Rd. turn right, turn left on Fry Rd. and right on Van Camp Rd. Gem City Outdoorsmen's Club is on the left. For those doing online directions, the address of the club is 6701 Van Camp Rd., Edinboro, PA 16412 Contact:
Gene Bihler 814-734-7484 (Vendors also contact Gene Bihler) or Craig Matteson 814-456-2999 (evening for both)

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3RD LEG - JULY 7-9, 2006
Bowhunter Challenge - Hosted by Hocking College
Nelsonville, OH
From Northwest: -75 south to Findlay Exit SR 15 east Merges with US 23 south Follow US 23 to Columbus, exit I-270 east Follow I-270 to US 33 east (Exit 46B) Follow 33 east to Nelsonville From Northeast: I-71 south to Columbus Exit I-70 east (Wheeling) Exit US 33 east (Lancaster) Follow US 33 east to Nelsonville. From Southwest: -75 north to I-70 east Exit I-270 south to US 33 east to Nelsonville or -75 north to I-70 east Exit I-270 south to US 33 east to Nelsonville From South; SR 23 north to SR 32 east to Athens Exit US 33 west or SR 23 north to SR 32 east to Athens Exit US 33 west Contact:
Deb 740-753-3591 ext. 7134 (for booth space also) Dorm Rooms: 740-753-3591 ext. 6175


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## JLMoore1956 (May 11, 2006)

JAVI said:


> If the shoot starts at 10 am.... then everyone has to be on the stake before 10 Am...


Been awhile but if I remember right, if there are 14 targets, then shotgun means that there are shooters at all 14 at the specified time and shooting ends for that round when you get all 14?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Big shoots*



Tom Patton said:


> I am just getting into the sport of 3-D shooting. It seems to me that there is a lot of oportunity for the dishonest guy to possibly cheat. I have not been to any big 3-D shoots and was wondering exactly what is done to keep the dishonest guy from cheating. If a fellow continuously shoots a 300 score do they ever have him shoot a few arrows at a said target to prove he can shoot a 10 ring everytime? I am in N.W. Ohio and would like to attend a larger shoot where there are cash payouts for high scores. Could someone let me know of any such 3-D shoots in my area.
> Thanks for the info


ASA events you are paired up and they do a shotgun start. I think its real fair because of two guys keeping score.
DB


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## ashx2 (Jun 26, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> My range will be sticking with the show up and shoot with your buddies method. It's more fun that way. :wink:


I would hope, that if I (not being one of the regulars) were to show up at one of your shoots.....that I'd get a chance to be thrown into a couple of the buddy groups and not be singled out as one of the "not from here...don't belong here" positions.

That way, when I returned home to my local range and area, I could say, "Hey, you know that shoot that I went to in "X" state/area? Well, I met some great folks and I've invited them down to shoot at one of our shoots sometime."

It's just my opinion though. Maybe you have all the friends you need and don't plan on making new ones....I really hope I'm wrong on that though. :wink: 

Greg


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The club hosting a local shoot should have their members go out of their way to pair up with newbies. I hate going to shoots by myself and having pairs of shooters blow me off. "Uh, well, we're waiting for a guy." 5 minutes later they're on the course without a third or fourth shooter! 

At a recent ASA qualifier my father and I were both shooting the qualifier. I offered at the registration desk to shoot with any newbies. I told the desk to send any loaners over to where I was warming up. My father and I ended up shooting with two guys that didn't know each other and neither had shot a 3D course before. They shot the course as a practice round and appreciated having some experienced shooters with them. I enjoyed meeting and shooting with the gentleman.

If you have 2 or 3 in your group, extend an invite to a loaner!


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## Guest (May 15, 2006)

Pros and cons to both the ASA and IBO

I do like the concept of shot-gun starts... it would probably reduce the chances/ opportunity for cheating....But the IBO has so many that attend that it would be difficult to orginize... 

Peoples work sechdules interfere with shotgun starts too... I have seen many at ibo events that could not get off untill Friday or saturday.... shoot theri 40 in one day and go home... With the increasing cost of gas... expensese for travel is really an issue... an extra night in a hotel could keep someone from coming...


The real problem is the cheaters.. not the times we shoot...


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

I'm all for shotgun starts if there is any type of prize to be given away be it a trophy and or cash. I am sick and tired of getting beat by a couple people around here that will not shoot with anyone other than the father/son. These guys do not shoot anywhere that utilizes the two card method of scoring or busting of groups. It has gotten to the point, for me in these parts that I will not even waste my money entering a shoot just to forfiet my hard earned cash just so these two father/son teams can "win?" a trophy.
I try and wait until Sunday afternoon to go to the shoot and then ask if these people have sho, if not I will. If they have I go home.
You would think the people running these clubs would get wise to this. It is costing clubs a lot of lost revenue.


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