# Walk back tuning question.......



## jtascone (Feb 27, 2007)

I have never heard of this happening, nor can I think of a reason that it would. I would like to see this done with a shooting machine with your current setup and see if the results are the same. I would have to say that somehow, someway it is a shooter error problem. Possibly just anchoring and torquing a certain way at that particular distance, and not at other distances? I just don't know what would make an arrow "curve" back into line that far away from the bow. Unless of course there is a crosswind that is not being taken into account on the day you did your walk back tuning.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Im a self taught shooter so form could be an issue, but I shoot tight, repeatable groups. They just seem to wander out and back. I cant imagine that my form, grip etc.. would change based on distance in a repeatable pattern. I appreciate the feedback.


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## BTM (Dec 31, 2002)

Have someone stand behind you and watch the arrows as they fly. Could be fishtailing.


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

Fishtailing would explain the perfect hole at one set distance and a tear at another.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Isnt fish-tailing usually a contact issue or is there something else?


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

can be from torqe also


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

For quite some time I have thought I could see the arrow fishtail in flight. But when I slap the Wasps on, they reach the same POI as the FPs fairly easily, so I forget about it for awhile. I started this re-tune due to a wear pattern that developed on the string side of the bisquit. Here's the brief on my gear:

AR34 with cam and 1/2
70 lbs bottomed out creating a 64lb true draw wt.
winners choice with G5 peep
Maxima 250s cut to 27" 100 grain heads, blazers right helical = 338 gn total
Bisquit rest


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

INTOODEEP said:


> For quite some time I have thought I could see the arrow fishtail in flight. But when I slap the Wasps on, they reach the same POI as the FPs fairly easily, so I forget about it for awhile. I started this re-tune due to a wear pattern that developed on the string side of the bisquit. Here's the brief on my gear:
> 
> AR34 with cam and 1/2
> *70 lbs bottomed out creating a 64lb true draw wt.*
> ...


If the bow is only getting 64# something isn't right. Check the specs, cable/string has got to be off.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

454casull said:


> If the bow is only getting 64# something isn't right. Check the specs, cable/string has got to be off.


Been that way since new. I cant say wether my scale is accurate or not. What "specs" are you refering to?


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

Axle to axle brace height and such with winners choice string and cable i would not think it would be off that bad the are usally very good on length.Most bows will be 1#or2# over the highest weight such as 71/72# limbs bottomed out.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

I see. I havent checked those two things. Tiller was good the other day though. I'll check them this evening. Thanks! Am I correct in that a longer A to A would reduce brace and of course poundage?


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

yes limbs not preloaded enough


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

INTOODEEP said:


> I see. I havent checked those two things. Tiller was good the other day though. I'll check them this evening. Thanks! Am I correct in that a longer A to A would reduce brace and of course poundage?


Yes.

If the cables stretched,
then the ATA would be more than factory spec,
which means,
that the limbs are not squeezed enough, at rest,
so your draw weight drops.

When the limb tips are farther apart, than factory spec,
then...

the brace height also drops/gets smaller.


What do you think the draw length setting on your bow is?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

INTOODEEP said:


> Been that way since new. I cant say wether my scale is accurate or not. What "specs" are you refering to?


Factory specifications for the bowstring length.
Factory specifications for the cable length, for the AR34.

http://www.archeryresearch.com/html/ar_34.htm

Axle to Axle = 33.5 inches
Letoff should be 70% (holding weight should be 30% of your peak draw weight)
Brace Height = 8-inches

Bowstring length = 86.5-inches
Cable Length = 34-inches.


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't know about the AR brand but most PSE models go way over max, PSE is their parent. Take the measurements and let us know what they are.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

The axle to axle checks out to be 34 and 3/8ths. From what is stated above this is way out. How, if at all, will this relate to my odd tuning results?


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Nuts and bolts, I know its odd but I struggle to remember things like draw length. I believe its 29.5ish


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

It will cause your draw to be way long causing hand tourqe,bow out of time making it hard to tune,change your draw weight change the required spine of arrow,etc.do you have a press ?


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

I thought you might suggest those couple of things. I did notice my draw feeling a touch wide or long the other day. Had to work to find the wall. Guess that should have been a clue. Historically I watched for peep rotation as an indicator to stretch but havent seen any. I dont have a press. It may be the only archery tool I havent acquired yet. Surley I can take it to a local pro and have them put it back to spec.


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

Yeah i think if you get it back in spec it will perform alot better for you.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

So how many days did you do the walkback tuning before you decided that you have a problem. If you only did one day or even worse a few groups then you may be creating yourself more trouble than you need to. 

I have days where seems like I have a problem with my bow but I always wait until I know I am shooting good groups to make final decisions and that means good groups for more than one day. Last year I won a 3-d tournament in the spring with out holding my pin on the bulleseye because if I did I would hit 1.5 inches up and left. It was just something with my form that lasted the entire shoot, by the next week I worked on it and never changed the bow.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Padgett said:


> So how many days did you do the walkback tuning before you decided that you have a problem. If you only did one day or even worse a few groups then you may be creating yourself more trouble than you need to.
> 
> I have days where seems like I have a problem with my bow but I always wait until I know I am shooting good groups to make final decisions and that means good groups for more than one day. Last year I won a 3-d tournament in the spring with out holding my pin on the bulleseye because if I did I would hit 1.5 inches up and left. It was just something with my form that lasted the entire shoot, by the next week I worked on it and never changed the bow.


I have no doubt that my form is not consistent. With that in mind I do test and retest to find symtoms that become persistent. I have been shooting and tinkering and shooting and tinkering with this bow for 6 years. Most of the things I have asked about in this thread have been reoccuring over that time. Im actually pleased and surprised that this fishtailing thing came up here because I had about convinced myself that it was all in my head. The interesting thing is for what ever reason that the bow does quirky things - out of spec, or me over tweaking from chasing real and/or imaginary issues - it always has managed to find a simular impact point for fields and BHs. They are amazing machines that will always be able to shoot better than me and my self sabotaging ways. I giggle sometimes at the numbers of folks on here that replace bows or upgrade frequently. Im not sure I could learn all I need to know about this one in another 6 years. I might go nuts setting up a new rig every year.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shot and won quite a few tournaments with the same 2007 guardian up to last fall, and my bow shop gave me a destroyer for this 3-d season. It has taken me months to get it ready and a week ago I did the measurements to see if it was in spec and it was way off. I put it back to spec and have spent the last few days putting arrows through it to make sure things are right such as arrow flight and sights.

One thing my guardian did better than any bow I ever worked with is it paper tuned perfect bullet holes from 0 ft all the way to 20 yds shooting through paper at every foot. I know that the feathers start stablizing the arrow at some time but this method covers all the distances from the bow until past where the vanes take over. This is my version of "walkback paper tuning". The problem I have always had with walk back tuning is that most people don't shoot well enough to do it right. With my version how could the arrow be showing bullet holes at each foot from 0-20 yds and still be doing something weird.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

No doubt Padgett. One of the consistent problems I chase is shooting good holes at different distances. I have never been able to duplicate good holes at say 20 yds if I was good at 6 ft. Kinda gets in your head after a while. Makes sense that if you can shoot a good hole at point blank then the fletch should only increase your odds of success at increasing distance. It doesnt always happen that way though does it. Am I the only guy that can paper tune and adjust to a good hole, only to find out later that you've over corrected and things start to flip flop on ya? Im no physicist or engineer, but Im not stupid either. There are just so many variables to consider it gets challenging sometimes. Guess thats why I enjoy jacking with em. You all are great help!


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

INTOODEEP
I am no pro, but have tried to read this whole thread and was wondering if you are keeping your bow straight when shooting and are you using the same sight pin when walk back tuning? I learned walk back tuning years ago from Nuts & Bolts, great guy and teacher. Not sure how you are doing it but I walk back starting with Field points at 20 yards using my 20 yard pin and go back in 10 yard incriments untill I run out of target or reach my own accuracy distance. I make an adjustment then do it all over till I get it right. After that, I take out my fixed blade broadheads and tune at 20 yards with both, then at 30 yrds, and so on till I again reach my personal accuracy distance (50 yards this year, ran out of back yard). I use the level on my bow sight to make sure I am holding properly. To check it, I have used a string level, but found that putting my bow in a vise and using a plum bob from top axle to botton axle is a better way for me to go (found my string level was off, assumed gravity didn't changed). Good luck
Ches.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Ches, I do walk back the same way. The level is a whole 'nuther deal. I havent checked my level against plum and true but Im sure it is off. How picky will a bow be on flat ground about a slight cant? I have found if I force the bow to match level that torque deteriorates my groups.


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

I have found on most sights with out axis adjustment they need to be shimmed to be plum with the bow.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

What brand and model of sights are you using. How many pins? Do you have different color pins for different yardages? What color are the pins?


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

INTOODEEP
Not sure how much it affects it if you are only using 1 pin. If you use more than 1 pin, it should make a difference the further back you go, how much, I don't know. Think of it, if your bow is tillted left, the further back you go, the further left your impact will be (pins tilted so lower pins will be more right). Again, I am no pro, but I think that is the way it goes. I don't know what kind of equipment you have, some guys have more than some archery shops on here, but if you don't have a vise, take a very fine thread (I use breaded fishing line, 10 lbs = 2 or 3 lbs mono), Tie a nut or washer to 1 end with a loop so the nut or washer will slide and find center. Put the bow up against a wall and hold the string so the free end goes over the end of the left or right top cam/idler axle, let the string with nut/washer hand down past the lower cam axle. Now tilt the bow until the string just touches the axle on the lower cam. At that point, the bow is level left and right, now look at your sight level to see if it is level at the same time. If not, adjust and do it over till it is right. Now this only corrects left and right tilt, tilt in your sight up and down is a whole nother animal depending on you sight mfg. Again, I am no pro, but this is what I do (but with a vise). Good luck.
Ches.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

right now im shooting a simple tru glo 4pin in .019. It appeals to me from a K.I.S.S. point of view.

I visited with a local pro shop yesterday and the fellow said that with the a to a off so much it might require a new string set to put back in spec. (May not be able to twist enough) I will be dropping it off with them soon so we can get this off of high center. No need in retuning without the bow being in spec. I havent used them before, but it is a long standing and respected shop.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Ches, 

I get what you are saying about drift due to tilt when using multiple pins. When I did this walkback, I worked with just my 20 pen and used it at each different length. Shouldnt that take the tilted bow (if tilted) out of the equation for this test?


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

INTOODEEP said:


> right now im shooting a simple tru glo 4pin in .019. It appeals to me from a K.I.S.S. point of view.
> 
> I visited with a local pro shop yesterday and the fellow said that with the a to a off so much it might require a new string set to put back in spec. (May not be able to twist enough) I will be dropping it off with them soon so we can get this off of high center. No need in retuning without the bow being in spec. I havent used them before, but it is a long standing and respected shop.


You might try switching your 30 yard pin with the 20 yard pin. You eyes pick up on some colors better than others. You are most likey getting an illusion effect with your 30 yard pin because of the color. Sometimes you can shoot in the bright sun and then later shoot in the late afternoon when it's starting to get dark and this can chage your point of impact. The amount of light and they way your eyes percieves the pins can trick you. Cerain colors are worse than others.


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

INTOODEEP
You got me. Why you could be on at 20, off at 30, then back on at 40 using the same pin is a question. If you tilted the same, I don't think that could do it. Somehow, I don't think it is the bow, but what it is I don't know. Good Luck

Ches.


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## mattheww1377 (Apr 8, 2010)

i just put 70# limbs on my bow and the chart said that my arrows would work but on the light side. got about the same as you good at 20 30 was off to the right 40-50 fine 60 off to the right and 70-80 was on again. got to watching closer i shoot both eyes open so that helps a lil and the arrow wasn't flying strait at some distances. went with a heavier spine and bam bulls eyes out to 80. well i'm a lil off at 80 but it is me... Never the less my arrows were in the middle not to the right at certain distances. Maybe if your cables streched and you lost poundage your spines are too stiff now?? don't know just a possability in my mind..


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## bigzahmer (Jan 16, 2011)

Ches makes a great point, anything out of level will be exaggerated with increasing distances. Another possibility, though unlikely, is if you use a sight with threaded pins, i've noticed that sometimes one or two pins will not quite be in line perfectly (vertically) with each other. Try shooting at a vertical line from 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, but use your twenty pin for every shot.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

OK, heres the scoop. I dont have a press so when we found the axle to axle length to be out by 3/8ths I had to take my bow to a shop. We found a couple things: My draw stop peg was not in the right hole - (dont ask how cause I dont know). In effect I would hit the top stop then have to pull through a little more to the bottom stop ,mushy mushy. You can imagine what kind of catty whompus shot that could produce. Getting both stops on the same page made a huge difference in the wall and shortened my draw a dab which helped. Then when we pulled the A to A back into spec and of course my poundage went up. The bow was pulling 61lbs on a certified scale with bottomed out 70lb limbs. 3/8" sure made a big difference in the available draw. Set it back in at 67lbs and am running some shots through it to settle the new tune up. After that Im going back to square and see how it acts. Before the poundage increase I was on the border between 250 and 350 spine maximas. I expect now that I may find the bow wanting to eat a heavier spine arrow. Im optimistic about getting a more reliable tune this time around.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

INTOODEEP said:


> OK, heres the scoop. I dont have a press so when we found the axle to axle length to be out by 3/8ths I had to take my bow to a shop. We found a couple things: My draw stop peg was not in the right hole - (dont ask how cause I dont know). In effect I would hit the top stop then have to pull through a little more to the bottom stop ,mushy mushy. You can imagine what kind of catty whompus shot that could produce. Getting both stops on the same page made a huge difference in the wall and shortened my draw a dab which helped. Then when we pulled the A to A back into spec and of course my poundage went up. The bow was pulling 61lbs on a certified scale with bottomed out 70lb limbs. 3/8" sure made a big difference in the available draw. Set it back in at 67lbs and am running some shots through it to settle the new tune up. After that Im going back to square and see how it acts. Before the poundage increase I was on the border between 250 and 350 spine maximas. I expect now that I may find the bow wanting to eat a heavier spine arrow. Im optimistic about getting a more reliable tune this time around.


There ain't nothin worse than a catty whompus.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

fletched said:


> There ain't nothin worse than a catty whompus.


No doubt. Its closely related to FUBAR.


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## hunter74 (Nov 23, 2007)

Good thats kind of what i was thinking all but the draw stop was going on with it good luck and hope it shots darts for you now let us know.


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## Demp223 (Feb 3, 2010)

once you get your bow in tune and draw length set properly I highly recommend using a thin black vertical line on a large sheet of paper to do drop test on.
To many people bounce around on spot and rush shot for consistent results.A thin line makes for a better mark and more consistent results


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

Demp223 said:


> once you get your bow in tune and draw length set properly I highly recommend using a thin black vertical line on a large sheet of paper to do drop test on.
> To many people bounce around on spot and rush shot for consistent results.A thin line makes for a better mark and more consistent results


I'll try it!


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

INTOODEEP said:


> No doubt. Its closely related to FUBAR.


A FUBAR is a permanent catty whompus.


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## INTOODEEP (Sep 29, 2004)

fletched said:


> A FUBAR is a permanent catty whompus.


Yes it is.

On another note, I got a chance to shoot paper tonight. I shot bare shaft at 5 feet. Shot a few to see if things were consistent and they were, had a short tear. I made 2 small adjustments to the rest and poof - perfect bullet holes! I love it when a plan finally comes together. I ran out of daylight but I'll try to walk back tomorrow.


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