# in or out......you make the call



## showard321 (Feb 11, 2011)

Out


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## tomkat04 (Feb 22, 2005)

Out. If that's in I have scored wrong for a long time. 

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## Smoknnca (Sep 13, 2011)

Shooting with your buddies for fun call it in. For any competition it is out, at least from those picture angles.


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## Bowtech n ROSS (Aug 30, 2007)

Out


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## vftcandy (Nov 6, 2009)

Out


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## Rod Savini (Nov 23, 2011)

Out 


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Out


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

100% out...


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

ok then.....looks like we are all together on that one


now.....how about this one?


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

all out.


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

out on both


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## Dusty12 (Jul 7, 2013)

Looks like all out.


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## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

Out & out


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

First pic, out. Second pic, I've seen them called in. Score keeper once I questioned arrows like that and was told to write down what they called it. And then a friend related of shots near the same as you have at a ASA event and "theirs" were in and his were out. Seems the rest in his group well knew each other.... Just saying.....


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## trapper.robi (Jul 9, 2011)

Both out


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

out out


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## Maxemus (May 20, 2013)

How can there be any doubt? You're out!!!!!


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## stx.bowhunter (Feb 15, 2012)

Both out


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## Nock On 4 Life (Jun 17, 2013)

both are out


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## Smoknnca (Sep 13, 2011)

Smoknnca said:


> Shooting with your buddies for fun call it in. For any competition it is out, at least from those picture angles.


Second shot once again same call


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if you have to question it, it's out. But in this situation it's different, no question...all out by a mile.


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## tomkat04 (Feb 22, 2005)

Out again

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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

*Score*

The second one is iffy. Doesn't have to be cutting the line, just has to be touching it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Scott E said:


> ok then.....looks like we are all together on that one
> 
> 
> now.....how about this one?


in...touching the line. the rules say it has to touch the line, as i recall. it doesn't have to be inside that line. if you don't want to call that one in, then don't. but if i'm calling it, i'm calling it in.

if you want to end the debate then make the rule that a portion of the arrow must be inside the line...but that's not what the rule says now.

maybe we should ask mckenzie/rinehart to make the lines really really thin...those fat lines lend themselves to "pulling"...i love that one..."Its pulling the line."

most i shoot with say, "If you can't call it out, then its in."..not quite sure about that one either.

another one is, "Ties go to the shooter."


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Second one is in it is touching


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

I feel like i score myself pretty tough and would def call the first one out if it was my call.

Now....the second one seems to be up for debate.....

When i first started this game (not so long ago), i would have called the second out as well. But after going to quite a few shoots (including a national), it seems as tho most people would call the second one in


Hell, i have witnessed arrows like #1 get called in at a national event......most local shoots i do people would most likely call #1 in.....and most def call #2 in

Am i being taught wrong?


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## harobmx2004 (Nov 1, 2011)

Would call both out after zooming the second one doesn't look like it is pulling or cutting the line at all ?


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

First one out but the second one is touching the line. Not pushing it but actually touching the line. If you have to magnify pictures to make a call, give the call to the shooter and move on.


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## tomkat04 (Feb 22, 2005)

I disagree that the second is touching the line. It may be almost touching a line, but I don't consider it to be the line. Doesn't really matter to me. I don't shoot to turn a score in, but may explain why I average 290-295 and others shoot 300+ all the time.

I also only shoot with my wife and occasionally a couple buddies, so I have no idea how others score these.

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## klshooter (Feb 3, 2005)

Ur only cheating urself if u don't call them in for me.lol


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## Coolhand71 (Jun 3, 2013)

I say all out, I can still see a piece of the target between the arrow and the line in all the pictures.


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## wrevans (Dec 13, 2012)

Both are out because there is "meat" between the shaft and the line.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I say the first one is out without another glance. The second one is close though and for sure not out "by a mile". I actually downloaded the #2 pic and zoomed it in. By doing that, it is touching the line. It's not cutting it but it is touching it. The way I do these close ones is to take the score card and lay it on the part of the shaft that is nearest the line in question. If I can see foam between my card and the line, it's out. At my first ASA, the guys in the group were calling those like #1 as being in...some might have even been a little further out than that, and still got called in. We would vote as a group and on several of them, I was the only one that said OUT.


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## P'town Shooter (Dec 30, 2012)

All out.


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## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

Gotta cut the line to be in the line! Could be touching it doesn't count out and out!


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I like these threads! This one is an easy call compared to some that have been posted. It's out.......all day!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Crow Terminator said:


> I say the first one is out without another glance. The second one is close though and for sure not out "by a mile". I actually downloaded the #2 pic and zoomed it in. By doing that, it is touching the line. It's not cutting it but it is touching it. The way I do these close ones is to take the score card and lay it on the part of the shaft that is nearest the line in question. If I can see foam between my card and the line, it's out. At my first ASA, the guys in the group were calling those like #1 as being in...some might have even been a little further out than that, and still got called in. We would vote as a group and on several of them, I was the only one that said OUT.


Asa rules say you can only use your eyes......as i was told numerous times.

All scoring im familiar with says it has to touch.....

Day one of city shoot in metro - i saw a pro hit the nock of another that was in th 12 on a 40+ yard coyote. The point glanced down way into the 5, however the arrow shaft went straight up and the shaft laid across the 5, 8, 12 and 10......
Was the damnest thing i seen in a while.

Shaft touched 12, scored as 12

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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Both are out. Pushing a line is not the same as touching the line. There is foam between both arrows and the lines...


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I think there both in


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## Lakecrisco (Jun 16, 2009)

Depends on where the line starts. If you look at shot #2, is the bottom of the grove the 'line', or is the radius of the groove included in the 'Line'? If you look at pic #2, the radius of the groove (the lighter portion) is wider on both sides of the arrow than it is above the arrow. That tells me the arrow is inside of where the groove starts. So, is there a hard and fast rule on where the 'line' starts? Is it the bottom of the groove or the start of the groove?


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Are you going to get that good of a look at them? first one is out second one it in. Maybe they need to change scoring rules needs to clearly be breaking the line not touching ,breaking.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Any of the groups that I have ever shot with at a national events or local events would have called BOTH arrows 10's without a doubt no arguement. The first arrow is not only touching the 10 line (all that is required by the rules) but it is actually pushing it in slightly. The second arrow would not even take a second look to call it a ten.


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## Onpoint85 (Jun 26, 2013)

Out


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Tallcatt said:


> Any of the groups that I have ever shot with at a national events or local events would have called BOTH arrows 10's without a doubt no arguement. The first arrow is not only touching the 10 line (all that is required by the rules) but it is actually pushing it in slightly. The second arrow would not even take a second look to call it a ten.


I agree, the outer most outside of the line is still the line.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> Any of the groups that I have ever shot with at a national events or local events would have called BOTH arrows 10's without a doubt no arguement. The first arrow is not only touching the 10 line (all that is required by the rules) but it is actually pushing it in slightly. The second arrow would not even take a second look to call it a ten.





jimb said:


> I agree, the outer most outside of the line is still the line.


I agree.

It appears to me that the first arrow has the outer edge of the line. I'd have to look close in person but it looks like a 10.

The second arrow is clearly in.

99% out is 100% in.

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## tomkat04 (Feb 22, 2005)

trucker3573 said:


> Man some toughies oh here. The first out and the second in. Glad I don't shoot with those of you that even consider the 2nd "out by a mile"...geeze. I love the comment about this being the reason a guy shoots 290's and not 300's....LMAO.
> 
> Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


Why's that funny? If I have two that I call 8's that should be 10's, I am cheating myself. If I call a 5 and not an 8 same thing. Adds up quick. I am a pretty fair shot, I guess I'm just a dumbarse because I look at something differently than you. 

Good thread by the way. Learned something new today!

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## Infamousfrog (Sep 24, 2011)

Out out out


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

carlosii said:


> in...touching the line. the rules say it has to touch the line, as i recall. it doesn't have to be inside that line. if you don't want to call that one in, then don't. but if i'm calling it, i'm calling it in.
> 
> if you want to end the debate then make the rule that a portion of the arrow must be inside the line...but that's not what the rule says now.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% but we seem to be the minority here. Seems to me that the majority would rather this sport be known as a cut throat, dog eat dog, if in doubt call it out method of judging.
Just my opinion but, touching is touching, and has nothing to do with cutting, pulling, the edge of the line, portion of the line, width of the line etc. I think a person should call it as if they would want it called, if it were their own arrow. 
Way I see it, the first arrow clearly shows the arrow is pushing the edge of the line toward the center, making the arrow edge cutting the outer edge. and the second arrow is cutting the outer edge of the line.
What has happened to our sportsmanship, not to mention our character and honesty, if we are of the opinion that to call it out, if there is a doubt, is always the correct call.


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## archerynut01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Both out...


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

1st out 2nd is in


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

#1 is out #2 is DEFINITELY in. The people calling the second arrow out have issues. Even Jack Wallace would have called that #2 in.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

The group decides we have all shot in groups that call tight or loose ,it's still the groups call not one person in the group.if the second arrow was mine and three called it out its out, butt I would told them I disagree and move on. I like the bowjunky video with Jeff and chance on calling the arrows on the turkey, 3 called it out its out.thats what makes it fun. ,


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Garceau said:


> Asa rules say you can only use your eyes......as i was told numerous times.
> 
> All scoring im familiar with says it has to touch.....
> 
> ...


The pro told you that?....he might want to go reread the rule then...


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

1st one out. 2nd one has a chance.Camera is looking down at it and I bet if you got down and looked at it straight on,it would be very hard to take it away from the shooter. I would need a down the shaft pic before I would call it out.


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## BOW TECH MAN (Mar 28, 2011)

Just by judging pics and not being able to see the arrows in person I would call #1 out #2 in.


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

The second one is in hands down. The first one is very close and if I was the shooter I would want it and therefore would probably call it in. The hair definition on the rineharts makes for some tough calls at times but my group would discuss and make a group decision.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Out--it has to actually touch the line. Deforming the line does not count. Sorry.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

wrevans said:


> Both are out because there is "meat" between the shaft and the line.


This.

Pushing foam into the line, isn't cutting or touching the line.

Easy solution...learn to be a better shot so it's clearly way inside scoring area.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> This.
> 
> Pushing foam into the line, isn't cutting or touching the line.
> 
> Easy solution...learn to be a better shot so it's clearly way inside scoring area.


Negative. The shaft can be pushing or pulling as long as it is touching the line.


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

The first one is out. I would sure fight for that second one.


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

schmel_me said:


> 1st out 2nd is in


Exactly how i see it.

I like to see all the diff opinions and ideas of whats in and whats out.

I also like the idea of an arrow must be "cutting" the line to score in.....seems a little clearer than the "touching" terminology

This has been a good thread so far.....i like it......i plan on taking more pics as i come across tough calls like this........would love to see any close call pics that you may have as well......feel free to add to the thread or start another

Good stuff guys.....call em as you see em!!!!


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

I can see the first one being called out. It the second one no way....too many people on here will thump their chest and say they would call it out...there is no way I would take that 2nd one away from someone. Like some one above said, 1% in is 100% the higher score. If someone wants to call my arrow tight, I'm fine with that as long as it applies when they have a close call too.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

No doubt about it; the first one-> Out! Second one is 99% out...so it's 100% in!


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## lectrode (Sep 13, 2009)

If its touching its in.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I had two today. Scorer called a 12 and a 10 which I had doubt of both. Scorer called them, score keeper wrote them down. Just like baseball, umpire calls it and that's what what it is, right or wrong. Next play may be called differently. So live with it.


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> I had two today. Scorer called a 12 and a 10 which I had doubt of both. Scorer called them, score keeper wrote them down. Just like baseball, umpire calls it and that's what what it is, right or wrong. Next play may be called differently. So live with it.


Thats pretty much the cold hard truth......if you look at it like......."if i coulda made just a touch better of a shot, i coulda had it, no question".......focus daniel son....focus


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## archery4 (Apr 3, 2010)

1st one out 2nd one is in.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Out and Out
U can see daylight in both cases b4 the line boys.....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Babyk said:


> Out and Out
> U can see daylight in both cases b4 the line boys.....


The first could go either way. 

But the second is in all day. Its dang near in the bottom (deepest part aka center) of the trough/line.

The outside of the line is still the line.

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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

i take what they call it and move on either way, but i've been to a lot of nat shoots, asa and ibo and 90% will be pissed if you call those out, and when on the computer looking at it 90% will call both out. just sayen


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

First one is definitely out. Second would probably score in on a "good ole boys" shoot. In a tournament it could be argued either way. 

Sent by homing pigeon


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## shooter64 (Nov 8, 2004)

1st arrow is pushing but it is out, 2nd is in I don't care who in the group shot it is touching the line for sure. How could you call it out.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

First out there is non line between. Just like you can pull a line to your arrow some also push it. This is a push line and isn't touching the line per the riles. Second is in all day as it is touching a portion of the line.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

hooiserarcher said:


> First one is definitely out. Second would probably score in on a "good ole boys" shoot. In a tournament it could be argued either way.
> 
> Sent by homing pigeon


how many national tournaments have you shot? just curious.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> The first could go either way.
> 
> But the second is in all day. Its dang near in the bottom (deepest part aka center) of the trough/line.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, I think that in most groups at a national level event both arrows will score, I see no way someone could call the second arrow out without cheating the shooter of points. Guess that would be another way to beat someone if you can't outshoot them.


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

jimb said:


> how many national tournaments have you shot? just curious.


Well I have shot exactly zero national tournaments. I have shot a lot of local tournaments though. I am looking at the pics through a not so good phone screen. So I could be dead wrong.

Sent by homing pigeon


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## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

First one would end up getting called out, never shot with any group of guys that wouldn't give it a good look as a group. Second one is in for sure. 

I agree with some others on here. I really think alot of people on here can say they'd call it out on the internet but would cry a river if it was their arrow and someone wanted to call it out at a shoot.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Out, not even any debate on that one.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

hooiserarcher said:


> Well I have shot exactly zero national tournaments. I have shot a lot of local tournaments though. I am looking at the pics through a not so good phone screen. So I could be dead wrong.
> 
> Sent by homing pigeon


I think the first could be argued but the second one has to be called in, its well into the line.


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

milkman38 said:


> i take what they call it and move on either way, but i've been to a lot of nat shoots, asa and ibo and 90% will be pissed if you call those out, and when on the computer looking at it 90% will call both out. just sayen


Good point.....


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

1st one out 2nd one in its breaking the line. Look at the line on both sides of the arrow its in.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

Both were out.


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## TroyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Ok, so not to derail this thread but I am new to 3D (archery in general) but I ran into this question this year. When there is 3 circles inside the 10 ring which one is the 10x? All or just the center one? 

I am talking about a 10 ring that looks like this:


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

anywhere withing the big circle is a 10

center circle would be an IBO 11

the other 2 circles would be the upper and lower ASA 12

an X would be the 11 or 12.....depending on which organization you are shooting in


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

TroyP said:


> Ok, so not to derail this thread but I am new to 3D (archery in general) but I ran into this question this year. When there is 3 circles inside the 10 ring which one is the 10x? All or just the center one?
> 
> I am talking about a 10 ring that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 1703893


Center circle is scored as an 11 by the IBO. The upper and lower are scored as 12's by the ASA. I'm not aware of any organization the scores a 10X unless it is NFAA. Sure someone will chime it. If it is scored as a 10X in your area of the country I would assume it would be the center circle.


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

Guess i have never actually heard of a 10x either.....just figured the bonus rings (11 or 12) would be called an X


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## TroyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Scott E said:


> Guess i have never actually heard of a 10x either.....just figured the bonus rings (11 or 12) would be called an X


That is exactly what I figured to with the bonus rings. I have never been to a large sanctioned shoot just some semi local clubs and it is usually stated that the 10x is scored as an 11, but never knew which circle counted for the 11 or if all did


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## JPhipps (Apr 18, 2012)

Both are close. Neither one is "out by a mile." The first one is iffy but the second one is definitely touching the line.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

had part is we have to make calls on foam rings and alot of times rings are gone or bigger the shaft the more it pulls and looks like its in. if i got to get on my hands and knees and look for a min im not gonna take points away. i have more of a problem of guys that know better try to pressure new shooters into giving them the higher scores.


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## Scott E (Apr 20, 2012)

milkman38 said:


> i have more of a problem of guys that know better try to pressure new shooters into giving them the higher scores.


Seen this quite a bit too......being that im a fairly new shooter myself

I still say score yourself tough and take the tough calls like a man......it will make you a better shooter because you will try that much harder next time


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

archery4 said:


> 1st one out 2nd one is in.


Exactly.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

I guess I'm confused. I can't even come up with a good reason you guys can call theb2nd arrow out. Zoomed in and all. It's touching the line clearly.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Jay-J said:


> The second one is iffy. Doesn't have to be cutting the line, just has to be touching it.


agreed, I would call the 1st one out(barely but some foam between ring and arrow), the 2nd one looks like its touching the outside of the ring and I would call that in. There's no pushing, no pulling, its either touching or it isn't.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

I guess the question is what are some guys calling "the line"? The line surrounding the 10 ring has 2 edges, an inside edge and an outside edge. Do some people call the inside edge?


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## shoot3d (Feb 12, 2012)

They are both clearly touching the line and that is all you need. I say they are in.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

1st is no question out.

2nd one is NOT touching the line. Click it to enlarge it and you can see (throught the jpeg compression) that the arrow isn't through the rise around the actual line. There is 1/20th of an inch of foam between it and the line. OUT.


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## lectrode (Sep 13, 2009)

.This thread clearly shows that a lot of people do not understand how to properly call arrows.Its what makes it hard sometimes to just "accept it" and move on. I have no problem accepting it 
and moving on if I trust the person or persons calling said arrow knows what they are doing. Just sayin.Second one definitely touching by the way.


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

both out...


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The first set of pics you posted....the arrow is out.....the second pic you posted...the way the camera angle is, it apprears to have pushed/touch the line..but to be honest there is a BIG difference of looking at a picture that is 2d and the realism of a 3d look you have in real life.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

First one is out. I don't see anyone honestly believing it touches the line.

The second one is in according to what I see in the picture. In person from different angles it may appear to be obviously out but that is not the scenario. I see it touching the line so obviously I'm calling it in. I'd argue hard for my least favorite 3D'er to get the higher call.


I looked at the pair of pics of the first target again. In the second pic I can see where it could be called in. Initially I saw it as being "out". Now I waver..... If I can see it as touching I call it "in". I don't think about how other folks call arrows. I just look at it and if I see it just barely touching the outside of the line then it might as well be all inside as I will call it touching.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

i bet if arrow #1 was in same spot on top side of 10 ring most would call 10 all day just based on our angle looking below the shaft but being on bottom its a lot easier to see some meat between shaft. somes days u got a little luck on your side and catch the jar lickers and shoot a big score and some days just can't buy an 11


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## bluerocker (Dec 24, 2009)

If its my arrows there both in if its your arrows there both out! Isn't that the attitude most 3d shooters have? Honestly I couldn't call either of them out, zoom it in the first arrow has a small piece of foam pushed up in the line and the 2nd is a no brainier! It seems you run into alot of this at the asa type shoots, what needs to happen is a judge at each target score the cards and pull the arrows the group doesn't even need to approach the target.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

so true bluerocker


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

What is considered the "line"? Once a definition of the line has been made calling arrows should be easier. Is the line the outside portion of the groove or does it have to be the inside portion of the groove. 

If the outside is considered the line the they both are in because you can clearly see a half moon shape in the outside portion of the line caused by the arrow but if its the inside portion then they are both out.

A better understanding of what constitutes the actual line is needed.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Tallybowman said:


> What is considered the "line"? Once a definition of the line has been made calling arrows should be easier. Is the line the outside portion of the groove or does it have to be the inside portion of the groove.
> 
> If the outside is considered the line the they both are in because you can clearly see a half moon shape in the outside portion of the line caused by the arrow but if its the inside portion then they are both out.
> 
> A better understanding of what constitutes the actual line is needed.


the further most outside part of the line is still the line.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bluerocker said:


> If its my arrows there both in if its your arrows there both out! Isn't that the attitude most 3d shooters have?


Well, not of my experience. Most all I shoot with won't call their arrow if close like the initial Post pictures. They, like me, normally say for someone to call it for whatever they think. I can't remember ever arguing over whatever the call was and I've never heard hard feelings.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm glad I don't shoot with some of you guys. lain:


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Wow. People make this to hard. Making the rt call isn't hard to do.


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## sgtdww504 (Feb 19, 2012)

Out


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

First one out for sure, second, I'd call it in.


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## ConflictDiamond (Jul 30, 2009)

I have shot in Senior Open ASA with some REAL good and well known shooters. In the first pic, approx. 50% of the folks I know would call it IN because it is "bulging" or pushing the line. In the second, 100% of them would call it in because it's closer than the first one....and is "touching". I'd call them both out because I see "meat" between the arrow and the line. I've been overruled many times. I just let it slide.......

G


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

ConflictDiamond said:


> I have shot in Senior Open ASA with some REAL good and well known shooters. In the first pic, approx. 50% of the folks I know would call it IN because it is "bulging" or pushing the line. In the second, 100% of them would call it in because it's closer than the first one....and is "touching". I'd call them both out because I see "meat" between the arrow and the line. I've been overruled many times. I just let it slide.......
> 
> G


I have shot for the last 10 years at ASA events in Sr. Open and now one year in Super Sr. Before that I shot Open B. I would venture to say that more like 98% of the groups I have shot with would have called the first arrow in and as you said 100% on the second arrow. I can remember one group at the Classic one year that "might" have called the first arrow out but they were in my opinion inconsistant so who knows...... With this being said my groups at Pro/Ams overall have been very fair with their calls.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

Jay-J said:


> The second one is iffy. Doesn't have to be cutting the line, just has to be touching it.


This is my thought... Usually they specify before each shoot some need to break and some touch... But I am no pro on this.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SARASR said:


> Gotta cut the line to be in the line! Could be touching it doesn't count out and out!





OCHO505 said:


> This is my thought... Usually they specify before each shoot some need to break and some touch... But I am no pro on this.


Copied directly from the ASA rules that ALL of us should read!

"All arrows must remain in the target until all arrows are scored. The arrow shaft must be touching a portion of the next highest scoring line to be scored for the higher value." 

It is very clearly written in the ASA rules that an arrow merely has to "touch" the higher scoring ring.


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## easton1117 (Dec 27, 2006)

in easy move on


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> Copied directly from the ASA rules that ALL of us should read!
> 
> "All arrows must remain in the target until all arrows are scored. The arrow shaft must be touching a portion of the next highest scoring line to be scored for the higher value."
> 
> It is very clearly written in the ASA rules that an arrow merely has to "touch" the higher scoring ring.


It's amazing HOW MANY '''THINK"" they know the rules.... 

Thanks kent for sharing.

People just don't go by what you hear.....if you want to know its all in black in white as the saying goes.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> It's amazing HOW MANY '''THINK"" they know the rules....
> 
> Thanks kent for sharing.
> 
> People just don't go by what you hear.....if you want to know its all in black in white as the saying goes.


I think there are a number of people who don't care what the rule says. They see it their way regardless.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I would bet those who called it out voted for Obama


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

Tallcatt said:


> I have shot for the last 10 years at ASA events in Sr. Open and now one year in Super Sr. Before that I shot Open B. I would venture to say that more like 98% of the groups I have shot with would have called the first arrow in and as you said 100% on the second arrow. I can remember one group at the Classic one year that "might" have called the first arrow out but they were in my opinion inconsistant so who knows...... With this being said my groups at Pro/Ams overall have been very fair with their calls.


The good thing about shooting Super Senior is that none of them can see good enough to call it out. Ha ha. Believe me that they can shoot very good yet though.


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

If it's my arrows the first two are out the third is in. I err on calling my arrows to the lower score. I want to earn my points. Not have them given to me. At an asa or ibo the foam will be fresh enough to roll with the arrow. then the debate begins. Lol.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> It's amazing HOW MANY '''THINK"" they know the rules....
> 
> Thanks kent for sharing.
> 
> People just don't go by what you hear.....if you want to know its all in black in white as the saying goes.



Some shooters know some of the rules, but none of them know all the rules......except for me of course.:shade:

The problem is...... shooters that think they know the rules try to apply an outdated IBO rule to an ASA shoot. 

I still have shooters asking me what power binos are legal in ASA events ????:sad: 

My reply is.....Guys there is no bino rule in ASA. You can use a 60x spotting scope if you choose to do so. I have actually seen this done. There was a guy at the Kinder La. Pro/Am with a spotting scope on a monopod.

or 

If I have a mis-fire and can reach the arrow from the stake can I re-shoot the shot ????

No...Please read the rules.....

_" a dropped arrow that falls while being nocked onto the string in preparation for a shot may be picked
up and shot with no penalty. If in the process of letting down the arrow drops off the bow it may be picked up and shot
with no penalty. However, the shooter is responsible for maintaining control of the arrow at all times and the arrow
must not be intentionally released, or in any way propelled by the string, or it will be scored as a zero. In addition,
releasing an arrow by pointing the bow at the ground in front of the shooter is dangerous and if an arrow is
intentionally released at the ground, the shooter shall not only receive a score of zero for that Pro/Am competition,
they will be in violation of Competition Committee Rules paragraph D-1 “Unsportsmanlike Conduct” and will be
referred to the Competition Committee for possible further disciplinary action."_

At our Texas ASA Federation shoots I read a rule at the safety meeting before we go out each day. It amazes me when shooters come up and say "I did not know that was the rule".



draw29 said:


> The good thing about shooting Super Senior is that none of them can see good enough to call it out. Ha ha. Believe me that they can shoot very good yet though.


Maybe thats why I said 98% of the groups I have shot with in the last 11 years would have called the first arrow in and 100% would have called the second arrow in. We cant see or we feel sorry for each other or both.:wink:


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

out.


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## BruceZ (Jan 4, 2007)

second pic looks good to me, dosnt the rule state touching the line?


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

I find it hilarious that you deleted your post because you realize you are hilarious.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

hooiserarcher said:


> I find it hilarious that you deleted your post because you realize you are hilarious.


What?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

There was a gentleman who I will refrain from naming who had posted saying " I think its hilarious that you all think its two different arrows" then he deleted it rather quickly


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

hooiserarcher said:


> I find it hilarious that you deleted your post because you realize you are hilarious.


I know im hilarious ..but I didn't delete any post


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

bhtr3d said:


> I know im hilarious ..but I didn't delete any post


Lol!!! Well I was going to quote you and I couldn't find it anywhere. Nothing wrong with being hilarious, but you do realize the leg of the target is on opposite sides of the deer on the pics making it impossible to be the same shot.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

hooiserarcher said:


> Lol!!! Well I was going to quote you and I couldn't find it anywhere. Nothing wrong with being hilarious, but you do realize the leg of the target is on opposite sides of the deer on the pics making it impossible to be the same shot.


Are you referring to these two pics that are in the original post? They ARE the same target. The pics were taken from two different angles. Look closely and you can see two arrows in the second pic.


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

The o.p. posted another pic of a completely arrow on a another post entirely. Have you not read through the thread?


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

Post #10


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

hooiserarcher said:


> The o.p. posted another pic of a completely arrow on a another post entirely. Have you not read through the thread?


I've read the entire thread. I _asked _in my post if you were referring to these two pics.......... I now know the answer is simply 'no'.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

hooiserarcher said:


> Post #10


It is obvious post #10 pic is different from the pics in post #1.


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

No may have been a better answer, but pretty much the whole point of this thread was arrow 1 which was post 1 and arrow 2 which was post 10. So when referring to both arrows I thought would have been pretty well self explanatory.


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## jzurek (Jan 23, 2013)

ray charles could look at that and see its out


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

This post does a great job of showing the inconsistency of calling a score on the range that's for sure!

The better example would be to show a lower 12 ring blown out with an arrow "in the hole" yet obviously below the 10 ring with someone calling it a 12 because it's "in the hole". That's the scenerio we are all faced with on day 2! hahahahaha


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

The first one I would have to see in person. The second one is in 100%


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## PFD42 (Mar 31, 2011)

They are both in!

The 8 ring


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## BruceZ (Jan 4, 2007)

IBO rules IV B 2. "An arrow touching the line of a greater scoring area shall be given the higher score." I am not real sure of ASA rules but the IBO clearly states its in and maybe thats why there is so different veiws of this.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

STRICNINE said:


> This post does a great job of showing the inconsistency of calling a score on the range that's for sure!
> 
> The better example would be to show a lower 12 ring blown out with an arrow "in the hole" yet obviously below the 10 ring with someone calling it a 12 because it's "in the hole". That's the scenerio we are all faced with on day 2! hahahahaha


Heck.....been faced with that as tge 10 th group to rotate to it on day one.

In the hole scores to me.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## BruceZ (Jan 4, 2007)

Am I correct in saying thats an IBO target and not a ASA?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

BruceZ said:


> Am I correct in saying thats an IBO target and not a ASA?


Yes. Now we need the IBO rules...But the same pics are in the ASA forums and the Posters relating of Dee or Mike to make the call to establish correctness. They have not responded and if they did I'd say they would say what the rules say, the group calls it and no one else.....They if call arrow out and it's in it's still out, plain and simple....So be friendly with those in your group


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

second pic....am I shooting against you, or are you on my team?!!!
that one's hard to all and I think I would want an official to call it, if it made a apreciable difference in my tournament standings.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

OCHO505 said:


> This is my thought... Usually they specify before each shoot some need to break and some touch... But I am no pro on this.


This does not work. If the rules state touch then its touch. Groups cannot decide how they want to score. Carry a rule book with you.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

JimmyP said:


> I would bet those who called it out voted for Obama


On the contraire, even if its 1/4 inch out Obama would give it to you. His version of the bail out program for archery.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

I definitely didn't vote for Obama and I call those out. I wish Obama was "OUT" of the white house myself. Oh and a pencil on a score card is hard to beat. But if you take the shots you think are out or are too close, just call them out and quit lying to yourself.


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

The first one is out and the second is in. 


Sent from my Pro 22 at 300fps


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

1st looks to be out from the pic and 2nd I would call in.


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## fatboyshooter (Feb 9, 2010)

Scott E said:


> i know it may be hard to tell from pics, but do the best you can. im not tryin to start a pissing match or any big arguments.......just call it as you see it
> 
> it seems that some people score tougher than others and curious to see how the majority would call it.
> 
> touching or not?


Both of those shafts are touching the line especially if that certain shooter has a lot of 5's and 8's on their scorecard!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> second pic....am I shooting against you, or are you on my team?!!!
> that one's hard to all and I think I would want an official to call it, if it made a apreciable difference in my tournament standings.


ASA rule; "Officials will not score arrows except in groups of 2 or Shoot offs"


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know... ASA rules plainly state the arrow must touch the line to get the higher score. The rules goes on to say the Group must score the arrow before any arrow is removed. The rule also states no Official will score a arrow except for 2 in a group or Shoot Offs. In short, the group votes and that's it. So be nice to those in your group as you might that close call in your favor. Make them mad and the arrows in the pics just might end up a 5! The group calls it, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Group calls those arrows 5s and sticks to their guns who's to prove different? Read the rules, no Official can be called, the group has the final call the arrow.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

This system works can't improve on it , I guess if the call goes against you open a can of kick butt


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Make the Read the rules, no Official can be called, the group has the final call the arrow.[m mad and the arrows in the pics just might end up a 5! The group calls it, no ifs, ands or buts about it. /QUOTE]
> 
> Ouch, there are consequences to that as well.
> 
> First is out second is in.


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## RoscoeP23 (Feb 27, 2013)

I think the second one is the same arrow as in the first pic with the other arrow pulled out and I think it is touching, so in.


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

RoscoeP23 said:


> I think the second one is the same arrow as in the first pic with the other arrow pulled out and I think it is touching, so in.


That's two totally different targets, unless your talking about the 2 pics in the first post then they both have the 2 arrows in them. First pic angle is kinda blocking the second arrow but look towards the back of the shaft and you can see the other shaft under it.


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## ThomasBisbee (Dec 23, 2012)

first one out.second one in.


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## ProtecMan (Apr 14, 2003)

ThomasBisbee said:


> first one out.second one in.


X2, close, but that is what it looks like from the angle provided by the camera.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

Scott E said:


> ok then.....looks like we are all together on that one
> 
> 
> now.....how about this one?


sorry guys but that's in


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

first one out 2nd one I can call that in....

Remember the thread that I started earlier, about having range officials to call questionable arrows? The response to this thread supports that range officials are needed!


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

both in


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

i like that suggestion that if its really really close, the shooter turns away from the target while the other shooters vote and majority rules.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Carloss, that suggestion maybe fair within the group, but not all groups are going to score the same as others. We are competting with everyone,not just those within our group. 
Scoring should be consistant as possible. I dont see that happening based on the calls/opinions made on this thread. 
IMHO, we need refs for judgement calls. Same judge for each class


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

So your saying all refs would call the same,have you watched any sports,people are still people.you would still have tight and loose refs.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> i like that suggestion that if its really really close, the shooter turns away from the target while the other shooters vote and majority rules.


Something of this was used at the Presley's First Annual Indoor 3D. We had 3 close calls in our pair up Shoot Off. Neither of us complained.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

JimmyP said:


> So your saying all refs would call the same,have you watched any sports,people are still people.you would still have tight and loose refs.


You are correct. I pointedly noted umpires of baseball - they call it and that's that. My favorite team always gets the shaft


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

It amazes me how much difference there is in scoring these on this thread. This has got to be the most inconsistent scoring system of any sport if there is that much variation in people scoring......


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

jskd said:


> It amazes me how much difference there is in scoring these on this thread. This has got to be the most inconsistent scoring system of any sport if there is that much variation in people scoring......


I'd say basketball and baseball is much worse.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

J Whittington said:


> Carloss, that suggestion maybe fair within the group, but not all groups are going to score the same as others. We are competting with everyone,not just those within our group.
> Scoring should be consistant as possible. I dont see that happening based on the calls/opinions made on this thread.
> IMHO, we need refs for judgement calls. Same judge for each class


well, i reckon the only solution is to take the human out of the equation. insert a device in the target that gives ya a ding ding when you make a legit hit or when you pull the arrow...one ding for a five, two dings for an eight, three dings for a 10, and a "WOOHOO" for a 12...oh, and for a miss you get a big ol' horse laugh.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> You are correct. I pointedly noted umpires of baseball - they call it and that's that. My favorite team always gets the shaft


obviously another Cubbie fan.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I sort of gave my call of the arrows, but if some one were to make my billfold feel better......

And Carlos may have been joking, but they really do have what he gave, a device for scoring. Yes sir, they do. But I betcha the ASA or IBO would wanna shell out the cost for the number of targets they have at a national event.
Was watching a segment on Olympic pistol shooters and this some years back. The practice range all set up, each shooter has a monitor that shows the target for each and every shot and gives the score of the shot, even totals up at the bottom. Those shooters don't even have to walk to the target.

When I shot precision pistol and rifle there were transparent layout sheets to cover the group. It was the call of the scorer and what he or she said was final, didn't care what you or your opponent thought. Grrrrrr! Helen and that dang .22 PPC of hers. #@$%*& gender discrimination and sexual harassment is what I think was going on....

Most laughable score call I know of; Was at this Trap Shoot and a new Scorer was scoring. GC called for the target and just ground it to nothing but dust. "Miss!" called the Scorer. GC went nuts! We got it straightened out. What it was, the man instructed the newbie Scorer that he had to see a visible piece of the target broke to call it a "hit." And you do, meaning if a tiny piece breaks off the target, it's a hit.


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## huntnfishnut (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree that the 1st is out. Here is how I see the second


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

huntnfishnut said:


> I agree that the 1st is out. Here is how I see the second
> 
> View attachment 1707155


It's as plan as day that it is in. Like I said, I wouldn't want to shoot with some of these guys. lain:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

I see 1 as out and 2 as in.....of course it is always harder to judge close arrows via pictures, but that is how I see them right now....


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## huntnfishnut (Jan 12, 2011)

sagecreek said:


> It's as plan as day that it is in. Like I said, I wouldn't want to shoot with some of these guys. lain:


I will admit I initially thought out too. Unfortunately with the tapered cut for the ring, it does make for some uncertainty as to an actual "line". I won't go so far as to say it is in as "plain as day" though.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

huntnfishnut said:


> I agree that the 1st is out. Here is how I see the second
> 
> View attachment 1707155


In my opinion, the "outside" edge of your red line isn't even as far out as it should be. I still see target scoring line outside of your red line.

The arrow is clearly in though.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> In my opinion, the "outside" edge of your red line isn't even as far out as it should be. I still see target scoring line outside of your red line.
> 
> The arrow is clearly in though.


I want to know who /where this target is.....The 12 ring is TOO BIG ...it's not suppose to go INTO the ibo ring....IF anything there is suppose to a connection of the two...(greatest) . The rings do not intersect at all now. Or am I the only one that noticed this as well


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> I want to know who /where this target is.....The 12 ring is TOO BIG ...it's not suppose to go INTO the ibo ring....IF anything there is suppose to a connection of the two...(greatest) . The rings do not intersect at all now. Or am I the only one that noticed this as well


I don't even look at 12's. Just a 10 shooter myself.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

Out.. and out


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> I want to know who /where this target is.....The 12 ring is TOO BIG ...it's not suppose to go INTO the ibo ring....IF anything there is suppose to a connection of the two...(greatest) . The rings do not intersect at all now. Or am I the only one that noticed this as well


Looks like a Rinehart, probably with ASA rings added in by hand.....


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Looks like a Rinehart, probably with ASA rings added in by hand.....


I can see that...but still WRONG though


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I don't even look at 12's. Just a 10 shooter myself.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


So, you shoot for the center of the ten??? Or the left or right quadrant depending on the head side...and of if your going to try up for the upper?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> So, you shoot for the center of the ten??? Or the left or right quadrant depending on the head side...and of if your going to try up for the upper?


I need a special font that indicates sarcasm evidently. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I need a special font that indicates sarcasm evidently.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


You don't say????NO way.....you need help with sarcasm.....are you sure about that now???


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> I want to know who /where this target is.....The 12 ring is TOO BIG ...it's not suppose to go INTO the ibo ring....IF anything there is suppose to a connection of the two...(greatest) . The rings do not intersect at all now. Or am I the only one that noticed this as well


Ahhhh! Another issue. Evidently the target is of a club target, not one on the ASA tour. As such, a 12 is 12. And then for a ASA Qualifier, we had the State Director allow center X rings for 12s.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> You don't say????NO way.....you need help with sarcasm.....are you sure about that now???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6BrrxD_4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## blkfootmigrator (Mar 19, 2011)

Out!


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> I'd say basketball and baseball is much worse.


Lol basketball and baseball is as clear as day... You touch home plate you score... The ball goes in the basket you score.... This here people don't even agree on what part has to hit to get a score. It needs to be clear as day as to what constitutes a score.


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## huntnfishnut (Jan 12, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> In my opinion, the "outside" edge of your red line isn't even as far out as it should be. I still see target scoring line outside of your red line.
> 
> The arrow is clearly in though.


Show it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

huntnfishnut said:


> Show it.


Would love to but I wouldn't know how from my phone and big-brother polices my internet usage on "my" PC (company). 

I don't disagree with your call.... just think you didnt get all the line in your illustration.... the outer edge of the 10 line is visible below your red line.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I guess that's my question about the shot.....
i'm not really up on ASA scoring rules.
is the outside "edge " of the ring's depression considered the defining character, or the inside "edge" of the ring's depression. if the outside edge, then yes, i'd say he's in.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

O


ron w said:


> I guess that's my question about the shot.....
> i'm not really up on ASA scoring rules.
> is the outside "edge " of the ring's depression considered the defining character, or the inside "edge" of the ring's depression. if the outside edge, then yes, i'd say he's in.


The out cusp edge goes to tbe higher score.


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

both out. Second one is not touching the line, in fact there is about 1/32 of an inch between the line and the arrow. The line is the "Canyon" for lack of better words. If you look close there is a small ridge between the "Canyon" and the arrow. That ridge is actually the space between the arrow touching the line.

Take a pin or pencil and put it in the center of the "canyon" or valley of the line and run it up the side toward the arrow. Does the arrow come in contact with the pin tip at the intersection? Answer is no.. Its out

Im guessing that 90% of the shooters on a local level and maybe even State level would call the second and maybe perhaps the first one in.. But if im scoring they are both out! Ive had a couple buddies get a bit pissy with me about calling arrows out. They quickly learned to make sure im not scoring. If im not scoring i don't even bother to look and will trust the callers decision.

I will say that if Hunting all those shots are "Awesome" Great shooting!!!


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Another reason to have a ref.





Humdinger said:


> both out. Second one is not touching the line, in fact there is about 1/32 of an inch between the line and the arrow. The line is the "Canyon" for lack of better words. If you look close there is a small ridge between the "Canyon" and the arrow. That ridge is actually the space between the arrow touching the line.
> 
> Take a pin or pencil and put it in the center of the "canyon" or valley of the line and run it up the side toward the arrow. Does the arrow come in contact with the pin tip at the intersection? Answer is no.. Its out
> 
> ...


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Humdinger said:


> both out. Second one is not touching the line, in fact there is about 1/32 of an inch between the line and the arrow. The line is the "Canyon" for lack of better words. If you look close there is a small ridge between the "Canyon" and the arrow. That ridge is actually the space between the arrow touching the line.
> 
> Take a pin or pencil and put it in the center of the "canyon" or valley of the line and run it up the side toward the arrow. Does the arrow come in contact with the pin tip at the intersection? Answer is no.. Its out
> 
> ...


You would be one of the only people in the country to score from the bottom of the canyon. The outside of the ring is still the ring.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Whittington said:


> Another reason to have a ref.


Can't agree. Humans are human. Really, it's not rare, but dang few Post of a bad call in any archery venue.....


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## huntnfishnut (Jan 12, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> Would love to but I wouldn't know how from my phone and big-brother polices my internet usage on "my" PC (company).
> 
> I don't disagree with your call.... just think you didnt get all the line in your illustration.... the outer edge of the 10 line is visible below your red line.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Ok. It's hard too with the photos. Can't really go by the coloring or shadow either. Just wanting to see what other people see. It has always intrigued me in general the differences of perspective.


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

first one is out second one is touching the line


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## buckbuster31 (Dec 3, 2009)

Second I would call in


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## tweeter196 (Jun 9, 2009)

If it were mine and it was called out I would not argue.


Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## chasemukluk (Jun 10, 2008)

OK. I would call the 1st out for sure. 

2nd arrow, if it was my arrow, I would tell the group to score it and I wouldn't argue. 
But, if I was scoring the arrow for a complete stranger or buddy in my group I would call it in. 

I like these threads. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

First one is out. Second one likely out from what we can see. Sounds like there is agreement that if the arrow were at least cutting into the outside curvature of the line indentation it would be in, correct? The second one looks dang close to that, but.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

stanlh said:


> First one is out. Second one likely out from what we can see. Sounds like there is agreement that if the arrow were at least cutting into the outside curvature of the line indentation it would be in, correct? The second one looks dang close to that, but.


Not cutting, touching. lain:

I think that is the confusion. Everyone should read the rules.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

sagecreek said:


> Not cutting, touching. lain:
> 
> I think that is the confusion. Everyone should read the rules.


So are either of these touching?


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

all out!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

stanlh said:


> So are either of these touching?


IMO, looking at the photos, the second one is definately touching. Wish I could see the 1st one in person.


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## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Both are touching according to ASA rules


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## tweeter196 (Jun 9, 2009)

Just saw the second pic today. I would call that touching by what I can see in the pic.


Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

This thread is, in my opinion, an excellent example for us to use as a self evaluation of our own character, integrity, honesty, and also our sportsmanship. Does the ability to gain some type of macho feeling, for not letting a questionable arrow be allowed the higher score, take precedence over the ability to be an absolute joy to shoot with and be called a friend, as well an honest and fair competitor? Yes, I do feel that an arrow must actually touch the line, in order for it to receive the higher score because it's what the rules require. Also, as we do an evaluation of our self, one can quickly determine how we really want to be thought of by our peers, or do we really care, as long as we make dang sure that no questionable arrow is given the benefit of a doubt.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Dr.Dorite said:


> ...as long as we make dang sure that no questionable arrow is given the benefit of a doubt.


I'm sorry but I think your reasoning is flawed. 

An arrow must touch the line. In my opinion, where a question exists the line should be "interpreted" fairly and its entirety considered. 

"Questionable" does not mean its out.... whether its mine or yours. If I'm going to err, it will be in favor of the shooter. In until it can be called out- not the other way around.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 3dn4jc (Jun 25, 2007)

1st one out
2nd one in IMO


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

Humdinger said:


> both out. Second one is not touching the line, in fact there is about 1/32 of an inch between the line and the arrow. The line is the "Canyon" for lack of better words. If you look close there is a small ridge between the "Canyon" and the arrow. That ridge is actually the space between the arrow touching the line.
> 
> Take a pin or pencil and put it in the center of the "canyon" or valley of the line and run it up the side toward the arrow. Does the arrow come in contact with the pin tip at the intersection? Answer is no.. Its out
> 
> ...


LOL! The deepest part if the groove is not the line.... The line starts at the edge of the line indentation for lack of a better word....


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## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Without a deffinate line on the reignharts its hard to judge at times. but the tie goes to the shooter.


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