# Calling Rick McKinney, Mining the Path of the Aging Archery Maestro



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Rick, like an aging once-world class ballerina who retains all of her ballerina skills but now is aging out of her ballerina physical fitness/capabilities, you have no doubt experienced the frustration of your aging body's diminishing ability to exececute your lifetime accumulated world class shooting skills. Could you tell us, as you've aged, which aspects of this physical erosion have been the most noticeable? Things like finger strength? Bow shoulder strength? Draw shoulder strength? Concentration? The abiility to remain stable but relaxed at the shot, absorbing the bow shock without anticipating or reacting to it? Draw weight concessions? Training volume concessions? 

I suspect there are a lot of us Masters category archers around here who would be interested in this topic.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I think it varies a great deal among individuals. It might help to know the experience of others so that we are more aware of what is coming. 


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Larry, I don't think there is just one answer on this. People have different ailments while some have none. A perfect example is between Jake Kaminski and myself. I never had the back and shoulder issues he has professed that archery causes. Whether it is due to an accident he experienced at the training center (relating to a golf cart) or some other time, I am amazed at what he recommends a person needs to do to warm up. Darrell and I threw a frisbee at the 1976 Olympics because other teams were doing warmups and we decided to do something since we never did anything to warm up except the 6 sighter arrows to begin the event each day.

Anyway, back to your question relating to just me: Eyes went first and I had to adjust how I set my head so I could use progressives. Tried regular glasses but very cumbersome when scoring and other usage of closeups. That was in my 40's. Shoulder issues (couldn't keep my shoulder down when coming through the clicker) due to heavy weight, thus dropped down in poundage I could handle. In my elite years, I used 47-51 pounds slowly dropping as I aged and shot better because of it. When I retired from elite competition I was 46 years old and was using 47#. I dropped to 42# when I picked it back up and hovered around 40# most of the time until I hit 60, then I dropped to 38#. This was not due to pain, I just could not control the shot the way I wanted to and that was more important than having heavy poundage. Those who say they cannot release unless they have heavy poundage is due to using arms instead of back. Most use a mixture of both but you can tell who is a true back shooter. Legs. The foundation of the shot. I used to run 3-4 miles a day every day. Sometimes on Saturdays if there was no tournament I would just take off and run for about an hour covering 6-7 miles just because I enjoyed visualizing tournaments while doing my run. I ran a marathon in my early 50's just because I wanted to, but this created foot problems for my future runs. Thus, I had to slow down and find really good shoes and then I could not run much. 

I lifted light weights starting in the 1980's and continued that until I retired, but before that I was a pole vaulter in the late 60's and early 70's which required a lot of upper body strength, thus I used to lift heavier weights for that, but I noticed during the spring period I shot horrible. Obviously, the heavier weights was affecting my shooting, so I quit pole vaulting my senior year in high school. I have always felt that lifting weights kept my body fairly even throughout the years. Archers need to be careful due to curvature of the spine, one neck (mastoid) muscle stretched out while the opposite side has shortened, and a few other items that could be caused if you just shoot archery. Keeping your body well balanced is important for future health. Also, light jogging gives you great cardio for archery and as I stated above I started jogging in 1980 and just stopped a couple of years ago due to health reasons. 

Drive was a major factor for a good elite athlete. Once that drive slows down, so does your competitive edge. I cannot tell you how many arrows I shot but can only guess due to I never counted! I shot for enjoyment and that could be sunup to sundown when I was able to. Finger problems? Just add more tape and treat the fingers with care when not shooting. Sand down the callouses and use lotion to keep the fingers from drying out and causing cracking. If your hand hurts, you are probably using too much poundage for the amount of training or you are doing it wrong. You have to be aware of your own body and adjust accordingly. Using logic helps in keeping your body in good archery shape. Some of you train like you are a body builder, which really doesn't help as an archer. Using fine muscles has always been the key to success. The larger muscles are more of a stabilizer factor, not an execution factor. The finer the muscle usage the more accurate you can execute the shot. 

The final comment I can make is that when your body changes, change with it. Don't fight it. Make the adjustment and work at refining it. But never forget the reason you are shooting. That is because you enjoy it. Just because you are shooting bad, doesn't mean you should quit, just keep plugging along and experiment some so you can become more consistent and accurate. Oh, and don't expect scores you used to shoot. Ain't going to happen, so do the best you can with what you have. 

Good luck and happy shooting!

Ps. The competitive drive never goes away. That is the hardest thing to deal with because you don't put in the time physically but you will always be competitive.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Rick McKinney said:


> Larry, I don't think there is just one answer on this. People have different ailments while some have none. A perfect example is between Jake Kaminski and myself. I never had the back and shoulder issues he has professed that archery causes. Whether it is due to an accident he experienced at the training center (relating to a golf cart) or some other time, I am amazed at what he recommends a person needs to do to warm up. Darrell and I threw a frisbee at the 1976 Olympics because other teams were doing warmups and we decided to do something since we never did anything to warm up except the 6 sighter arrows to begin the event each day.
> 
> Anyway, back to your question relating to just me: Eyes went first and I had to adjust how I set my head so I could use progressives. Tried regular glasses but very cumbersome when scoring and other usage of closeups. That was in my 40's. Shoulder issues (couldn't keep my shoulder down when coming through the clicker) due to heavy weight, thus dropped down in poundage I could handle. In my elite years, I used 47-51 pounds slowly dropping as I aged and shot better because of it. When I retired from elite competition I was 46 years old and was using 47#. I dropped to 42# when I picked it back up and hovered around 40# most of the time until I hit 60, then I dropped to 38#. This was not due to pain, I just could not control the shot the way I wanted to and that was more important than having heavy poundage. Those who say they cannot release unless they have heavy poundage is due to using arms instead of back. Most use a mixture of both but you can tell who is a true back shooter. Legs. The foundation of the shot. I used to run 3-4 miles a day every day. Sometimes on Saturdays if there was no tournament I would just take off and run for about an hour covering 6-7 miles just because I enjoyed visualizing tournaments while doing my run. I ran a marathon in my early 50's just because I wanted to, but this created foot problems for my future runs. Thus, I had to slow down and find really good shoes and then I could not run much.
> 
> ...


Such a thoughtful indepth answer. Thank you!


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## geocarr (Oct 14, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Such a thoughtful indepth answer. Thank you!


Agreed! Thanks!


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Awesome insight as always, Rick, thanks for sharing!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks Rick! Are you back at it Larry?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Great to have you share your experience, Rick. Have you had any changes in you kinesthetic awareness? One of the biggest changes I have had is not being able to feel where my body is like when I was younger. 


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Leonard, I think there are a lot of changes we have to deal with when we get older. Yes, your foundation is not as stable and the longer you stand there holding the shot the more movement you make. I like to relate it like a drunken sailer. I wonder if it is more equilibrium more so than balance. I get a kick out of the kids shooting. They are doing everything we do but they are on the upward swing and probably will get better while we on the other hand....


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Thanks Rick! Are you back at it Larry?


I am, at least trying! Still shooting OR, and now doing barebow, so I can learn more about it...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 

A lot of us have been through similar scenarios. Thanks for sharing, it lets us older guys know we're not alone 

Just curious, I understand the drive part, but over the years, have your thoughts on the sport changed, or more specifically your thoughts about you personally and the sport? Things like what's still important and what's maybe not so much?

Thanks again,

Viper1 out.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Thanks Rick! Are you back at it Larry?


Hi Gabe!
I'm shooting everyday, but finding a consistently repeatable shot is still elusive. Am making progress though. 
Trying to make some business manuevers that will give me more time and focus, maybe, on getting at least an indoor groove going.

But for now, I'm just happy to be LIVING VICARIOUSLY THROUGH THE OLD AGE DOMINANCE OF MY GOOD FRIEND GABE QUEROL!!!!! Yay Gabe!!!! I'm amazed and proud how you and Gary and the other oldsters are still getting such good wood on the ball.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Larry, I don't think there is just one answer on this. People have different ailments while some have none. A perfect example is between Jake Kaminski and myself. I never had the back and shoulder issues he has professed that archery causes. Whether it is due to an accident he experienced at the training center (relating to a golf cart) or some other time, I am amazed at what he recommends a person needs to do to warm up. Darrell and I threw a frisbee at the 1976 Olympics because other teams were doing warmups and we decided to do something since we never did anything to warm up except the 6 sighter arrows to begin the event each day.
> 
> Anyway, back to your question relating to just me: Eyes went first and I had to adjust how I set my head so I could use progressives. Tried regular glasses but very cumbersome when scoring and other usage of closeups. That was in my 40's. Shoulder issues (couldn't keep my shoulder down when coming through the clicker) due to heavy weight, thus dropped down in poundage I could handle. In my elite years, I used 47-51 pounds slowly dropping as I aged and shot better because of it. When I retired from elite competition I was 46 years old and was using 47#. I dropped to 42# when I picked it back up and hovered around 40# most of the time until I hit 60, then I dropped to 38#. This was not due to pain, I just could not control the shot the way I wanted to and that was more important than having heavy poundage. Those who say they cannot release unless they have heavy poundage is due to using arms instead of back. Most use a mixture of both but you can tell who is a true back shooter. Legs. The foundation of the shot. I used to run 3-4 miles a day every day. Sometimes on Saturdays if there was no tournament I would just take off and run for about an hour covering 6-7 miles just because I enjoyed visualizing tournaments while doing my run. I ran a marathon in my early 50's just because I wanted to, but this created foot problems for my future runs. Thus, I had to slow down and find really good shoes and then I could not run much.
> 
> ...


Pure gold. Thanks Rick.

I can 100% relate (now) to the marathon at 50 and subsequent foot problems. Only I never got to run the marathon after training for a year. PF got me and got me bad. I wouldn't wish it on anyone but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one I guess.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Rick McKinney said:


> Leonard, I think there are a lot of changes we have to deal with when we get older. Yes, your foundation is not as stable and the longer you stand there holding the shot the more movement you make. I like to relate it like a drunken sailer. I wonder if it is more equilibrium more so than balance. I get a kick out of the kids shooting. They are doing everything we do but they are on the upward swing and probably will get better while we on the other hand....


Well, I have managed to steadily improve in the 5 years since I came back. But it is an order of magnitude harder. Knowing much more about motor control, learning, and biomechanics helps make up much of the difference, but things are certainly not what they once were. I work far harder and smarter on many fewer arrows than 40 years ago. 


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Hi Gabe!
> I'm shooting everyday, but finding a consistently repeatable shot is still elusive. Am making progress though.
> Trying to make some business manuevers that will give me more time and focus, maybe, on getting at least an indoor groove going.
> 
> But for now, I'm just happy to be LIVING VICARIOUSLY THROUGH THE OLD AGE DOMINANCE OF MY GOOD FRIEND GABE QUEROL!!!!! Yay Gabe!!!! I'm amazed and proud how you and Gary and the other oldsters are still getting such good wood on the ball.


Hey Larry! It is still fun and that's why we all do it. We still love to compete, see friends and test ourselves. 
In the medal matches, 3 of the 4 of us were +60! How cool is that?! The camaraderie is outstanding. Come back and play!!

I had a conversation with Jay and while he still shoots Vegas, I asked him why not NOW? Well it was something about not being his Olympic version. But the truth of it is, none of us are the versions of what we were many years ago. For me, it's about being better than I was yesterday. And if we can be just slightly better than yesterday, it is motivation to keep training and competing.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Rick’s “The competitive drive never goes away. That is the hardest thing to deal with because you don't put in the time physically but you will always be competitive” is right on the mark for me.

While I’d never presume to claim to be a “maestro”, I certainly fit the description of an “aging archer”. 😄 For those who don’t know my background, I was a member of the Canadian team in the ‘70s and ‘80s and shot in several international competitions with Rick and Darrell back in the day. I was pretty good at the national level, but never amounted to much internationally, which is why nobody ever heard of me. 😄.

I’m about Rick’s age, and have experienced some of what he describes, but for me, recurve archery just got too hard when I hit my mid 30s - the competitive drive was still strong and the health was still there, but the necessary willingness to work at it enough to stay competitive faded. I pretty much packed in Olympic style around 1990 (three years after my last International event), switched to compound and had a decent local competitive career for another 15 years or so. After that, the eyes went on me, then the shoulders and finally the rest of my body. Now I just go out and plunk a few with a lightweight trad bow every week or so.

But like Rick said, the desire to win is still there, under the surface, so much so that I avoid anything in archery that involves keeping score, maybe for fear of having it right there on paper how long ago it has been since I was capable of fulfilling that desire. I can convince myself I can still shoot a pretty good arrow or 10, but I’m afraid to see an actual number. 😬

The other hardest thing, I have found, is losing contact with most of my archery friends. All of my ‘70s-‘80s teammates have long left the sport (or shuffled off this mortal coil), and I’m not part of the current local “in” crowd any more. For me, the social aspect of the sport was always the best part.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Hey Larry! It is still fun and that's why we all do it. We still love to compete, see friends and test ourselves.
> In the medal matches, 3 of the 4 of us were +60! How cool is that?! The camaraderie is outstanding. Come back and play!!
> 
> I had a conversation with Jay and while he still shoots Vegas, I asked him why not NOW? Well it was something about not being his Olympic version. But the truth of it is, none of us are the versions of what we were many years ago. For me, it's about being better than I was yesterday. And if we can be just slightly better than yesterday, it is motivation to keep training and competing.


Gabe, It was fun to watch the scoring! Great to see you shot well.

Stan


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Pure gold. Thanks Rick.
> 
> I can 100% relate (now) to the marathon at 50 and subsequent foot problems. Only I never got to run the marathon after training for a year. PF got me and got me bad. I wouldn't wish it on anyone but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one I guess.


on the running front, I started running at 44 and did 13 marathons, my last being at 52. When I turned 50 I tried to qualify for Boston and ended up with PF for 2 years. That was when I decided that running faster was not going to happen.

I did pick archery back up a year ago and knew I would not be anywhere close to what I was in college. For one, I could only make out colors at 18m, when back in the day I could see the black rings. I’ve enjoyed shooting again, but can’t practice as hard or as long as yesteryear. It been humbling adjusting expectations with what the body can do.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Good stuff. My shooting vs age is like an M.C. Escher painting, where every direction I go is downhill. I started young shooting terrible and it only got worse over time, never better... 

lee.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> Just curious, I understand the drive part, but over the years, have your thoughts on the sport changed, or more specifically your thoughts about you personally and the sport? Things like what's still important and what's maybe not so much?
> Viper1 out.


Viper, I have thought about this and still do not have a good answer. When you don't have skin in the game, you care less, thus when they change the rules on selection trials, scores required, hiring people without going through the correct process, I can just blow it off. Unfortunately, since I started coaching several kids I am starting to pay more attention to some of the details. I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole of politics, cronyism and manipulation but trying to stay out of it will be difficult. I find that I really don't care what WA does vs what our club does locally. I push the kids to honor their competitors, encourage sportsmanship and understand that the journey is long and can be fun if they look at it right. As for me personally, I shoot very little and when I do I shoot a compound since there is very little pain when shooting it. I am not very good at it, but that's ok since it is not my specialty. None of the kids I have coached for over 5 years have never seen me shoot a recurve. That may change since I plan to shoot at the National Target this year with my friend who won the title 50 years ago. He is going and convinced me I should go. Who knows, maybe I can beat him this time!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, I wonder if anyone has ever discussed what the equivalent of "shooting your age" (golf term) is in archery? 

If a senior golfer is able to shoot their age, that is considered a major accomplishment. I wonder what our equivalent would be? It would be neat to have one.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

For compound I used to promise myself I wouldn’t enter Master (Senior) division until my age was higher than my bow weight. 

That came sooner than I expected. 😩


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Larry Anderson, Ed Eliason, Wilburn Wooten, and a few others would skew that calculation. I was just looking at the records for the National Senior Games and Wilburn holds it for 60-64 at 1718. That’s 2 900 rounds. 


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 

Thanks again for the honesty and reality check, it's always appreciated. 
I've become less and less tolerant of the politics, including rules changes, bickering and my personal favorite, the hype .

I guess I'm pretty lucky that a lot of the people I train these days are either approaching or well into their 70's. Believe it or not, most can shoot OR (at lighter weights) remarkably well, and happily have no intention of "serious" competition. When I run matches, I use common sense rules based on the old NFAA/NAA standards. I know that's not what a lot of guys here are into, but it serves our purpose. 

A while back, I asked the question if "archery" was a sport or a hobby. For what I and most of my guys do, it's a hobby, usually just one of several. And before folks don't think that's not taking it seriously enough, they haven't seen how seriously us old geezers take our "hobbies". 

Viper1 out.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Stash said:


> For compound I used to promise myself I wouldn’t enter Master (Senior) division until my age was higher than my bow weight.
> 
> That came sooner than I expected. 😩


My age was almost double my peak weight the last time I shot in competition. But IIRC, I came in around 60th or something in the country out of about twice that many in Masters. I was happier than a pig in slop - I not only showed up both days with a flu, I shot all 120 arrows with my old Supra Max with my homemade strings on it, a recurve sight and trusty 10” stab, 33lbs measured peak weight at equipment check. And I made my goal of no 8’s. Funnest/most grueling loss ever…

I’ve finally worked up to about 40 lbs peak weight now and will be Senior next year. Er, I don’t know if that’s progress or not….

lee.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> Larry Anderson, Ed Eliason, Wilburn Wooten, and a few others would skew that calculation. I was just looking at the records for the National Senior Games and Wilburn holds it for 60-64 at 1718. That’s 2 900 rounds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wilburn's records are borderline absurd. I had the pleasure of meeting him (and owning some limbs built for him by Earl) at the '04 Gold Cup. He seemed shocked that I knew who he was.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I got to shoot with him twice at NAA Nationals in Oxford in the early ‘80s. Great guy. My favorite Wilburn quote after a bad end - “Mah mahnd warn’t raht.”


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I got to shoot with him twice at NAA Nationals in Oxford in the early ‘80s. Great guy. My favorite Wilburn quote after a bad end - “Mah mahnd warn’t raht.”


After meeting him once, I could tell I had missed a decade or more of good times.

My one regret in this sport is that I started so late. While I was working my way through college and starting a career and a family, there were a lot of good tournaments full of good people going on and I knew nothing about any of it.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper, that's what you should do. US Archery has always had a difficult time in blending recreation (hobby) and elite (sport) as one. It is one of the few sports that still allow the recreational minded archers to shoot shoulder to shoulder with an elite. The balance is very difficult and yet it has worked with US Archery. In the 1980's the board discussed having the Nationals for elite archers only (a score requirement to go). We discussed this, and most felt it was important to allow those recreational archers to shoot the nationals because that is how you start out, then eventually, if the drive is there and the scores are there, you start to become an elite. I was an elite on the board but never forgot my roots. Also, if some of you have seen instagram when Eunice met Brady, she was just a toddler and now she wins a bronze with him at the world cup. How inspiring is that?!?! 
John, I have no idea on how you could relate score with age. As most of you have noticed, Wilburn was "a square peg trying to fit into a round hole!" His words, not mine. He was so popular that when his bow broke at the National Sports Festival, nearly half the field came to his aid, offering him any and all kinds of equipment to help him through the round. When I was told what his record was at the Master's event, I thought back as to when he shot well and that was in his 60's. Ed's was in his early 50's (he won the National Target Championships three times in a row). I guess you can say that if you hang in there, it will come through for you. Well, except maybe for lee.... . 
One last thing, I asked US Archery if they would be willing to sell the name and logo of the NAA, specifically to promote the recreational side of archery, but they freaked out! I wasn't sure how we could work it, but felt it would have been more of an all volunteer recreationally minded group of people who just want to shoot and have fun. That did not go over well. It appears I am an extremely self-centered, narcissistic, evil doer who plots all the time for the destruction of archery. Who knew....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> One last thing, I asked US Archery if they would be willing to sell the name and logo of the NAA, specifically to promote the recreational side of archery, but they freaked out! I wasn't sure how we could work it, but felt it would have been more of an all volunteer recreationally minded group of people who just want to shoot and have fun. That did not go over well. It appears I am an extremely self-centered, narcissistic, evil doer who plots all the time for the destruction of archery. Who knew....


I asked Denise the same question about 8 or 9 years ago. She was very quick to dismiss the idea. Very quick. But by then, anything that came out of my mouth she quickly dismissed so I was the wrong messenger. 

I believe Tom Barker tried as well. 

And you have some company in that category Rick. LOL


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Rick McKinney said:


> It appears I am an extremely self-centered, narcissistic, evil doer who plots all the time for the destruction of archery. Who knew....


Welcome to the club Rick. Though maybe it is the other way around. You were probably perceived as subversive before most of us. 


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

lees said:


> Good stuff. My shooting vs age is like an M.C. Escher painting, where every direction I go is downhill. I started young shooting terrible and it only got worse over time, never better...
> 
> lee.


"My shooting vs age is like an M.C. Escher painting, where every direction I go is downhill "
That is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> Larry Anderson, Ed Eliason, Wilburn Wooten, and a few others would skew that calculation. I was just looking at the records for the National Senior Games and Wilburn holds it for 60-64 at 1718. That’s 2 900 rounds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wilber was a monster!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I asked Denise the same question about 8 or 9 years ago. She was very quick to dismiss the idea. Very quick. But by then, anything that came out of my mouth she quickly dismissed so I was the wrong messenger.
> 
> I believe Tom Barker tried as well.
> 
> And you have some company in that category Rick. LOL





limbwalker said:


> I asked Denise the same question about 8 or 9 years ago. She was very quick to dismiss the idea. Very quick. But by then, anything that came out of my mouth she quickly dismissed so I was the wrong messenger.
> 
> I believe Tom Barker tried as well.
> 
> And you have some company in that category Rick. LOL


John,
I shamelessly flirted with Denise everytime I saw her (Tom Stevenson clutching his pearls at every interaction where I would suggest improvements or changes to her). But always "no joy." However, we had a great rapport - I believe she saw me less as 'subversive' than 'incompetent' ... does that put me higher on the totem pole, or lower?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I saw Wilburn's records when I shot Senior Games, which unfortunately has lost some luster for me, and those scores are really quite remarkable. We can all aspire to that kind of excellence.

Aging and sports is probably a little different for each athlete. For some it will be the physical differences. Well, to be fair, every aging athlete is not what they were physically in their prime, but some hang onto the physicality needed a bit better. I think some also hang onto the hand eye coordination better as well and that's a huge difference. Everyone I shoot with in competitions has drive and that might be the thing that changes the least. What I haven't heard is the mental state. Like golfers who lose their touch putting as they age. Archers who age often have nerves get in the way. 

It's a large amalgam of considerations and trying to sort each of them out is an important thing for the aging athlete.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I saw Wilburn's records when I shot Senior Games, which unfortunately has lost some luster for me, and those scores are really quite remarkable. We can all aspire to that kind of excellence.
> 
> Aging and sports is probably a little different for each athlete. For some it will be the physical differences. Well, to be fair, every aging athlete is not what they were physically in their prime, but some hang onto the physicality needed a bit better. I think some also hang onto the hand eye coordination better as well and that's a huge difference. Everyone I shoot with in competitions has drive and that might be the thing that changes the least. What I haven't heard is the mental state. Like golfers who lose their touch putting as they age. Archers who age often have nerves get in the way.
> 
> It's a large amalgam of considerations and trying to sort each of them out is an important thing for the aging athlete.


For me, as you list, strength and coordination has waned some. But also, some stiffness and arthritis results in some pain as a consequence of the shot. It's not catastrophic pain, but noticed, and it's difficult to remain relaxed and just absorb the bow shock (knowing the irritating pain will accompany the shot). Difficult not to tense up just a bit in anticipation, and that 'tense' is a great sabotager.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Nothing is as easy as you age. For me I have to work harder at bringing the energy to each shot and have to work around the aches and pains that I did not have when younger. the thing that affects my shooting the most, however, is that on some shots I just cannot get the feel of where my body is, and when I can it is certainly not as clear and sharp as it once was. I can feel the zone, but not as clearly, and sometimes I just can't tell that things are not where I think they are.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Just curious, how many of you shoot club shoots and local events or do most of you shoot USAT events and higher?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Just curious, how many of you shoot club shoots and local events or do most of you shoot USAT events and higher?


 All of it, as well as organizing it. Club shoots, local shoots, state events, regional events, national and USAT stuff.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lcaillo said:


> Nothing is as easy as you age.


Not sure about that. I fall asleep in my easy chair at night easily. And staying up, that is easy too--drink coffee after 5pm.

There is something I do easily, but I forget what it is...


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## monterey (Feb 16, 2015)

Out of curiosity - there's a World Masters Archery Championships: Do they conduct any testing for banned or performance enhancing substances or do they not bother? I'd imagine a good sample of the over 60's would be sporting levels of things like pain killers, beta blockers, fish paralyzer etc 

They could use the event to calibrate their tests though.


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

monterey said:


> Out of curiosity - there's a World Masters Archery Championships: Do they conduct any testing for banned or performance enhancing substances or do they not bother? I'd imagine a good sample of the over 60's would be sporting levels of things like pain killers, beta blockers, fish paralyzer etc
> 
> They could use the event to calibrate their tests though.


I'm curious about that as well. I know in cycling there is drug testing in the various Masters divisions. It seems like every year there's at least one new suspension announced by USADA for a masters rider. In fact, here's one that was just announced last month for a 56 year old rider U.S. Cycling Athlete Brian Abers Accepts Sanction for Anti-Doping Rule Violation | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)

Of course, cycling has a long history of dopers while archery has relatively few incidences of doping. So maybe it's not worth the expense to conduct drug testing at Masters archery championships.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

I dunno, guys.... I suppose you could try to find all those 60+ year old drug dealers trying to get into your tournaments... But you're going to have trouble because they're all dead.

OTOH, most of us are suped up on something, but mostly that's legal stuff designed to keep us alive, not kill us.. 

I would pee in a cup willingly, but I'm probably one of the few old guys that wouldn't spit on you if you told me to do that before a shoot. Just something to keep in mind about us old folks - we tend not to take a lot of ess aeych aye tee.. 

lee.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

monterey said:


> Out of curiosity - there's a World Masters Archery Championships: Do they conduct any testing for banned or performance enhancing substances or do they not bother? I'd imagine a good sample of the over 60's would be sporting levels of things like pain killers, beta blockers, fish paralyzer etc


and maybe Viagra...


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

woof156 said:


> and maybe Viagra...


Stabilizers are illegal in barebow...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hikari said:


> Stabilizers are illegal in barebow...


Not even stubby little 3” ones?


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## bbtradlb (Jul 8, 2016)

lees said:


> I dunno, guys.... I suppose you could try to find all those 60+ year old drug dealers trying to get into your tournaments... But you're going to have trouble because they're all dead.
> 
> OTOH, most of us are suped up on something, but mostly that's legal stuff designed to keep us alive, not kill us..
> 
> ...



Most who take a minute to check the meds they are on are shocked to discover how many are banned substances.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Stash said:


> Not even stubby little 3” ones?


As long as they can fit through the 5” circle ⭕ you’re good


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Ryan understands...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

bbtradlb said:


> Most who take a minute to check the meds they are on are shocked to discover how many are banned substances.


My urine sample would frighten even a RUSADA official...


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

bbtradlb said:


> Most who take a minute to check the meds they are on are shocked to discover how many are banned substances.


I know and that's unfortunate... But yes the rules is the rules....

lee.


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## monterey (Feb 16, 2015)

bbtradlb said:


> Most who take a minute to check the meds they are on are shocked to discover how many are banned substances.


That's why I was asking. Do they slacken off the rules for the older age groups for legally prescribed pharmaceuticals? Otherwise the list of available competitors would be a lot lower for 60+/70+. I don't think it would lead to this, at least for archery:

```
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU
```


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## Steve P (May 14, 2009)

TUE, therapeutic use exemption. You will need documentation from your dr and specialists who prescribe the meds.

Steve


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

I may be way off the mark here.... and I tried to read the WADA rules one time and gave up figuring that I won't likely need to pee in their cup. But, in the TUE request doesn't your doctor have to provide justification for using the banned medication vs one that isn't on the banned list? Seems to me that it's more that "Steve needs to take XYZ medication to keep him from <fill in the blank>.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yeah, but people should be aware that it’s not just a matter of carrying around a note from your doctor. 

There’s a procedure involved in applying for a TUE from the national or international body, and it takes time. If anyone’s interested, just do a search for “WADA TUE” for the basics.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

And a prescription, even a legitimate one, isn't always going to be allowed under a TUE; WADA has a list of "absolute no-noes" regardless if they keep you alive or not. If you have any questions regarding your meds, I've found the USADA help line to be a great resource, just contact them with your sport/s and your meds list and they will tell you if and whether or not you can get TUE for your prescriptions. But honestly, drug testing is expensive, and unless you are Olympic/world championships level, maybe national podium, your chances of doing the pee pee dance is near nil unless you're shooting up on the line or bragging in the inspection line. 

Back to the decline from prime topic, I wonder from some of those who have been ultra elite in their career how much "decline" they attribute to merely aging and how much they might attribute to simply no longer training at that level... Yes yes, I know there is the age decline, and I also get training "at the same level" often times isn't a reality due to increased recovery times... But let's say "life" didn't happen and you could still dedicate to training at or near your recovery limits, how much loss would you say it due solely to age.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> And a prescription, even a legitimate one, isn't always going to be allowed under a TUE; WADA has a list of "absolute no-noes" regardless if they keep you alive or not. If you have any questions regarding your meds, I've found the USADA help line to be a great resource, just contact them with your sport/s and your meds list and they will tell you if and whether or not you can get TUE for your prescriptions. But honestly, drug testing is expensive, and unless you are Olympic/world championships level, maybe national podium, your chances of doing the pee pee dance is near nil unless you're shooting up on the line or bragging in the inspection line.
> 
> Back to the decline from prime topic, I wonder from some of those who have been ultra elite in their career how much "decline" they attribute to merely aging and how much they might attribute to simply no longer training at that level... Yes yes, I know there is the age decline, and I also get training "at the same level" often times isn't a reality due to increased recovery times... But let's say "life" didn't happen and you could still dedicate to training at or near your recovery limits, how much loss would you say it due solely to age.


While never "ultra elite," I had my moments  At 52, I have found that training for long spells really IS the problem for me at least. Last year, I had my sights set on breaking a world masters record. Although I eventually did break the record I was after, I had the chance to break two based on how I was shooting early in my training cycle. Unfortunately, my string fingers had other plans and I had to reduce my arrow count daily from over 100 to eventually fewer than 20 arrows/day just before the event in order to protect my fingers. I was getting significant pain in the tendon of my middle finger and it was swelling. This was even after adding a layer to my tab and reducing my draw weight down to just 44# - the least I've ever shot.

The weekend of the event, I ran out of gas at the end of each day, costing me about 10 points on each 36 arrow pass. I did the best I could, but I gave up 40 points to my average over the two days because I lacked the stamina I needed. Stamina has always been one of my greatest assets - being able to outlast even the guys 20 years younger in hot, humid and windy conditions. So that was particularly frustrating to me. The record was set, but it was not the most satisfying of scores.

I hope in the future I can find a way to overcome the finger issue and try again with better training. I'll try to post a picture of the difference now between my first three fingers on my string hand vs. those on my bow hand. It's considerable. I guess a lifetime of shooting bows with my fingers has eventually caught up with me.

The other thing to think about here is the motivation. Rick alluded to this earlier when he said he can shoot compound without any concern about his performance because that wasn't his specialty. Archery is as much about competing with yourself as it is against others and it's inevitable that you will compare your current scores with those you used to shoot. Mentally that can be a real challenge to your motivation when you see your training average so far below what you're used to. Many elites just don't even bother to compete because of this. I've seen it a lot even in younger archers.

Moving from 70 to 60 meters gave me quite a bit of motivation since I could once again shoot the scores I was used to seeing at 70 (or even a little higher). Early in my training last year I shot a 350 at 60 meters after work one day. I never shot a 350 even in training at 70 meters. That will motivate you! After that pass, I re-dedicated myself to training and increased my arrow count which is what led to my finger issues. So it was a short-lived but still very fun training period where 340 was just expected. Those are fun runs when they happen. They just don't last as long when you're older.


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Back to Wilburn Wooten for a moment - I met him when I lived in Winston-Salem, NC. I joined the Forsyth County Archery Club. One day, I went to the outdoor target course, I saw a man hitting center at 70 when I was practicing at 30. How did he do that, I wondered. So, began my enjoyment of Wilburn and his wife , Ruby. My first archery trophy was winning the 5th annual Wilburn and Ruby Open in 1991 - NFAA Traditional.
Wilburn had a straight line tattoo on his bow hand - about an inch long between his thumb and first finger - he would align that with a mark on his riser. He told me one day a new barber asked if he was one of the Klan. The barber explained that some of them had such a tattoo as a recognition mark for others. Wilburn was not amused. At his house, I commented on the unusual height of his backstop for his yard target - tersely he replied that was the compromise he and his neighbor arrived at after an errant arrow ventilated said neighbors living room. I have now lived long enough to have a passing acquaintance with such "errant arrows". 
When I owned for 3 weeks a compound to help switch from right handed to a left eye dominant shooter, Wilburn allowed at when I was done, he would trade me a bow for the compound for his nephew - I have a maroon Hoyt TD that he used for one of his national titles - when I learned Wilburn had died, I was unable to locate his son to pass it on to him. If anyone has that data, pass it to me, thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, that tattoo is also on the hand of Denise Parker and Ed Eliason. Odd coincidence, Ed showed me that tattoo and described its purpose to me at the same event ('04 Gold Cup) where I met Wilburn.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Rick McKinney said:


> I guess you can say that if you hang in there, it will come through for you. Well, except maybe for lee.... .


LOL... yeah true, but the fun factor always went monotonically upward. The greatness of the folks in archery always just got better and better. And it still gets better and better even now. When I was in competition "condition", if I showed up and actually managed to shoot all 120 shafts and they all were in the bale, it just got funner and funner.

That's the part I'm missing now, as various things are interfering with me getting back into actually shooting with the archery community again. Even if I stick with compound I just haven't been able to put my shooting regimen back together. So being away from the community is really the hard part.

lee.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lees said:


> So being away from the community is really the hard part.
> 
> lee.


Lee, come over and shoot with me--I suck too...

or maybe I suck better...or worse. Whatever, lets fling some arrows....


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Hikari said:


> Lee, come over and shoot with me--I suck too...
> 
> or maybe I suck better...or worse. Whatever, lets fling some arrows....


Around here (TAMU area), it's kind of like being in a boat on the ocean dying of thirst. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 3D shoot - you know: 3 arrows per hour with a campout and 6-pack of beer between every shot in 130 deg TX heat - but I just can't muster interest in that particular game. The only paper shot around here is the guys struggling to get a bullet-hole at 2 yards at the local shop .

The local shop, speaking of, recently moved and put up an incredibly nice range. Big enough you could probably shoot a typical state indoor in there, but I never see any targets on the bales and it's $15/day to shoot in there. Which I'm not complaining - a setup that nice ain't cheap for a shop to build and maintain, so they got to pay the bills - but too expensive for me to go in there and wear it out 4+ times a day after work, and both days on weekends like I really want to to get back into shooting condition.

Outdoors, that line of bales with the big F.I.T.A. targets with the flags on em at 50M on a field somewhere is just a dream I have 3 nights a week, and then I wake up, still surrounded by rubber deer... 

Very weird. When I lived here before, when working on my degree at TAMU back in The Good Old Days, there were leagues around and lots of spot shooting. Now it seems like I'd have to drive 100 miles to find an actual spots competition....

lee.


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## VAtiger (Dec 15, 2016)

Rick McKinney said:


> Just curious, how many of you shoot club shoots and local events or do most of you shoot USAT events and higher?


Both, although, alas, there haven't been many local shoots in the past few years.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lees said:


> Around here (TAMU area), it's kind of like being in a boat on the ocean dying of thirst. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 3D shoot - you know: 3 arrows per hour with a campout and 6-pack of beer between every shot in 130 deg TX heat - but I just can't muster interest in that particular game. The only paper shot around here is the guys struggling to get a bullet-hole at 2 yards at the local shop .
> 
> The local shop, speaking of, recently moved and put up an incredibly nice range. Big enough you could probably shoot a typical state indoor in there, but I never see any targets on the bales and it's $15/day to shoot in there. Which I'm not complaining - a setup that nice ain't cheap for a shop to build and maintain, so they got to pay the bills - but too expensive for me to go in there and wear it out 4+ times a day after work, and both days on weekends like I really want to to get back into shooting condition.
> 
> ...


Well, if you are ever in my neighborhood (DC), bring your bow and I will take you over to my local public range in the Maryland side of Rock Creek Park. There are two 40 yard lanes and one dual 50-100 yard lane, all with 122 FITA bosses. It is surrounded by woodland and has bathroom and picnic facilities. (There is another larger public range just north of there, but I have not been.)

I feel incredibly lucky. I picked up a bow when I came to DC and was just fortunate to find this place. Like you, shooting foam animals has no appeal.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Just curious, how many of you shoot club shoots and local events or do most of you shoot USAT events and higher?


Just a few of eacn now, National Indoor, Pacific Coast for FITA events, 900 round shoots and the occasional 3D shoot, such as Million BC.


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## thearcher (Jul 23, 2003)

Stash said:


> I was pretty good at the national level, but never amounted to much internationally, which is why nobody ever heard of me. 😄.


Glad I decided to actually get on the range today and shoot some arrows for the first time in a long time AND get on archerytalk for the first time in a long time. So I could disagree with you!!! 

You were better than pretty good and you were on the Olympic Team. You just got unlucky with the year you made that team as that Olympics were boycotted. So don't sell yourself short and lucky for me I spent my first year of archery being introduced to the sport and learning from you! That was the year I fell in love with archery and that fun was what years later led me to be on an Olympic Team as well. There were many of us that you helped along the way even if you acted like you were a big scary bear.  Thanks coach. Been a while! 

By the way, great seeing Vittorio, Jon (LW), and Rick still on here. They are amazing resources but wow they are gluttons for punishment.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

thearcher said:


> Glad I decided to actually get on the range today and shoot some arrows for the first time in a long time AND get on archerytalk for the first time in a long time. So I could disagree with you!!!
> 
> You were better than pretty good and you were on the Olympic Team. You just got unlucky with the year you made that team as that Olympics were boycotted. So don't sell yourself short and lucky for me I spent my first year of archery being introduced to the sport and learning from you! That was the year I fell in love with archery and that fun was what years later led me to be on an Olympic Team as well. There were many of us that you helped along the way even if you acted like you were a big scary bear.  Thanks coach. Been a while!
> 
> By the way, great seeing Vittorio, Jon (LW), and Rick still on here. They are amazing resources but wow they are gluttons for punishment.


Whew! there's a blast from the past. You're right. We are gluttons, although I've scaled back my engagement here substantially. Getting too old and tired to argue anymore I guess.  A little distance from the sport has helped me realize just how unimportant teams and titles are in the bigger scheme of things.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

thearcher said:


> There were many of us that you helped along the way even if you acted like you were a big scary bear.  Thanks coach. Been a while!


Yeah, been a while. Stick around a bit longer this time. You got me remembering the old days - I still have the post card you sent me from Athens. 

Scary bear? That’s disappointing. I was thinking, more like cuddly panda...


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## thearcher (Jul 23, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Whew! there's a blast from the past. You're right. We are gluttons, although I've scaled back my engagement here substantially. Getting too old and tired to argue anymore I guess.  A little distance from the sport has helped me realize just how unimportant teams and titles are in the bigger scheme of things.


You've been too busy going after records to hang out here! Tell the truth.  And I sure hope you haven't gotten too old and tired to hang around here as a lot of people gain a lot from your participation here. And yes, teams and titles aren't necessarily as important from our point of view in the bigger scheme of things but they are important to many young athletes at that stage of the game. Helping them with form or with navigating the politics to get a fair shake can have impacts on how they view the world the rest of their lives. So keep up the good fight sir.


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## thearcher (Jul 23, 2003)

Stash said:


> Yeah, been a while. Stick around a bit longer this time. You got me remembering the old days - I still have the post card you sent me from Athens.
> 
> Scary bear? That’s disappointing. I was thinking, more like cuddly panda...


Been too long! Next time I'm in Toronto we need to get together. Maybe go visit HH archery range for old times sake! Lunch will be my treat for all you did for me back then. Those are good days to remember my friend. We had so many good times on that range and at Caledon and was a great bunch of people at that time. I'll dig up (I have somewhere) a few photos from back then. I know years ago I came across at least one so am sure I can find it again. Glad you still have that postcard and I still have that sight bar you gave me. 

 Cuddly Panda?!?!?  I always knew you had a huge heart and were so supportive of all of us. You just hid it a bit behind _a little_ gruffness and snarkiness which I always thought were pretty amusing actually. One needed to get your sense of humor though. Some of the other archers though were a bit scared of you till they got to know you.  But that kept them safe too as they didn't do stupid things in the very little space we had in the basement back then. I don't remember a single incident or injury in all that time.

I'll do my best to stick around a bit more this time but you can always message me directly if I fall off the map. 

To remind you one story, remember that time at Caledon I pulled back a compound bow for the first time? Was your brand new bow! Of course I didn't know that if I relax at all it will rip the string right out of my hand when I let it creep past the letoff. So didn't see that coming. Needless to say that is the only bow I ever dry fired! Your brand new bow! I felt so terrible about it! When it happened I think the whole place went silent and were sure you were absolutely going to kill me!!!! Literally. But you very calmly took the bow out of my hand and I got to keep all my limbs.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I don’t remember that compound bow incident at all. So, you’re off the hook, I guess. 

Sending you a PM - people here aren’t interested in the good old days at the U of Toronto.😄


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