# What's the problem with Binos in 3D



## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*great post Brian .....*

and I totally agree ..... there's no reason for a club not to allow bino's, if someones using them to "cheat" so be it, but they are a vital tool for most 3D'ers.


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## Pic (Sep 12, 2003)

Great post Brian..but hey, what would you expect from a over-regulated society like ours!!!

I gues some people just want to be the first..or want complete and utter control.

Guess until they come out and say why...we'll never know.

Serge


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I never heard of such a thing.  Which clubs aren't permitting binos?


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Stash said:


> I never heard of such a thing.  Which clubs aren't permitting binos?


Kent County Bowhunters haven't for as long as I can rember. Ask Sean sometime what happens if you show up with a target colour bow


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

*I can't speak for anyone else.....*

Though, a few years back I tried to implement a no bino rule for one of our shoots at YCB. It was infact our first year of the marked yardage 3D. The intention was not to have the rule carried across the board on all the club's shoots, but rather be specific to that shoot. Reason being, I was attempting to try and foster a "back to basics" type shoot, that would hopefully bring out some of those archers who may (for various reasons) otherwise not attend a 3D shoot. Or those that had gotten away from the sport as the gadgets and competition had ramped up. The no bino's rule was just a part of the whole deal, which included no 12 rings, marked yardage, and shorter target distances.

The marked yardage shoot went over fairly decently and lives today, though the no bino's rule went over like a lead ballon, and was not pursued further.

Cheers


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Grey Eagle said:


> Though, a few years back I tried to implement a no bino rule for one of our shoots at YCB. It was infact our first year of the marked yardage 3D. The intention was not to have the rule carried across the board on all the club's shoots, but rather be specific to that shoot. Reason being, I was attempting to try and foster a "back to basics" type shoot, that would hopefully bring out some of those archers who may (for various reasons) otherwise not attend a 3D shoot. Or those that had gotten away from the sport as the gadgets and competition had ramped up. The no bino's rule was just a part of the whole deal, which included no 12 rings, marked yardage, and shorter target distances.
> 
> The marked yardage shoot went over fairly decently and lives today, though the no bino's rule went over like a lead ballon, and was not pursued further.
> 
> Cheers


There you have it Folk's. Dennis just admitted that it's all his fault!


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

In general, I'm not opposed to getting rid of binos in 3d. HOWEVER, what I'd like to see is an orange sticker on the 11/12 so that I know what I'm aiming at. (in lieu of glassing the target for marks to shoot at). Just ensure that the sticker is a colour that us colour-blind folks can see IE: NOT RED!

I've chatted with many folks that think this'd be a good idea. No binos would definitely speed things up (marginally), it'd also help to level the playing field a bit for us cheapos that can't afford swaros or leicas. I know many people would probably object to the sticker on the target, but 3D is a target event after all...

All that said, if there's a shoot that isn't "stickered" and doesn't allow binos, they will not be drawing my entry fee...


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

There are a few clubs that don't allow it, that's their choice, but mine will be to *NOT *attend...Kent County being the #1 club I will NEVER go to again. You'll be linched if you walk in there with a target bow...


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## btmckay (Dec 7, 2003)

As for clubs that won't allow binos. I heard on the weekend
that the Running Bear in North Bay is supposed to be, the 
first person to shoot is the only one allowed to glass.
Now binos aren't totally disallowed but what happens if the 
lead person misses or makes a bad shot, then you don't have
a spot to aim. I know in the past one of their members claimed
that binos slowed things down. I know I won't be going to the
shoot if it's this way and so will a number of people that I've
talked too.
Brian


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

This is just one more STUPID reason to turn people off this sport.I know that I wont be attendinding any where I cant use them.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Moparmatty said:


> There you have it Folk's. Dennis just admitted that it's all his fault!


You learn fast :wink:



hoody123 said:


> In general, I'm not opposed to getting rid of binos in 3d. HOWEVER, what I'd like to see is an orange sticker on the 11/12 so that I know what I'm aiming at. (in lieu of glassing the target for marks to shoot at). Just ensure that the sticker is a colour that us colour-blind folks can see IE: NOT RED!
> 
> I've chatted with many folks that think this'd be a good idea. No binos would definitely speed things up (marginally), it'd also help to level the playing field a bit for us cheapos that can't afford swaros or leicas. I know many people would probably object to the sticker on the target, but 3D is a target event after all...
> 
> All that said, if there's a shoot that isn't "stickered" and doesn't allow binos, they will not be drawing my entry fee...


Trying making an effort to attend the NFAA shoot in Redding, California one year. You'd enjoy it


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*how about one of these*

how about an 8 power monocle? hey D.D.. time to try some feild ? OAA provincials are not to far away from your place.. maybe start a movement of 3D folks and shoot some spots

Gilles


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## Green Archer22 (Oct 27, 2007)

*3d*

LOL!!!! Leave it to you, gilles, Too funny.:wink:


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## Mr.LIFETIME (Apr 12, 2006)

btmckay said:


> As for clubs that won't allow binos. I heard on the weekend
> that the Running Bear in North Bay is supposed to be, the
> first person to shoot is the only one allowed to glass.
> Now binos aren't totally disallowed but what happens if the
> ...





You can glass at the running bear. After the the first shooter shoots the rest are not allowed to glass from the PEG. Thats not a big deal to get all worked up about.
Here's how the club rule is written and as far as I know has always been this way.
Binocular rule: (Club rule) Only first shooter in group may glass from the peg.
Simple English and easy to understand.
:thumbs_upOne of the best tournaments around and there is NOT one reason I won't attend.

Roger


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

IBQUIKER said:


> You can glass at the running bear. After the the first shooter shoots the rest are not allowed to glass from the PEG. Thats not a big deal to get all worked up about.
> Here's how the club rule is written and as far as I know has always been this way.
> Binocular rule: (Club rule) Only first shooter in group may glass from the peg.
> Simple English and easy to understand.
> ...


What is the reasoning behind this. Shouldn't all shooters get the same look at the target?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Bino`s*

Hey guys don`t the rules state in fca and oaa and Ibo first guy can bino from peg and all others can bino outside the box lets say... One of the biggest problems is the guy who shoots then binos to see where he shot, that is against the rules I think for sure guess what the arrow ain`t going to move from the time the shot was made till you score it.... If you must check your shot do so outside the box because in reality you are taking up the next 2 minutes to shoot also in the rules , And to all those that won`t attend common play by the rules and you won`t run into problems like this, How many times have you been behind some one who glasses then draws , puts down glasses again , draws again etc etc etc again against the rules if I remember correctly, I think once arrow nocked or bow drawn and you put down you cannot re bino, These rules where created so tournaments have all the shooters doing the same and in a timely manner,... C ripes I`m as blind as a bat and use binos but try my darnedest to follow the rules out lined... Some one should post the rules from the governing bodies so everybuddy knows what they are from each governing group... Just my 2 cents for what they are worth... Again how come you can come across agroup of shooters and have 2-3 empty targets in front of them and it was a shot gun start where every peg had a group at it to start??????? check what is around their necks:darkbeer:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

The no-bino thing has always been a silly rule. "Vote with your feet" is the way to treat anything you don't like about a shoot. If the rule is followed, 2 minutes for the first shooter and 1 minute for the rest, and enforced, there won't be any backups at 3D shoots. 
If people want to speed up 3D shoots, they should institute a rule of no looking for arrows until the shoot is done. That will make shoots faster and safer...


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## Mr.LIFETIME (Apr 12, 2006)

H.M. Murdock said:


> What is the reasoning behind this. Shouldn't all shooters get the same look at the target?



Does it realy matter? When your glassing out of the box you can tell where the first shooter put his arrow, if he's got a good shot, you'll have a reference point unless he put it in the bush, and no matter how long you stare at the target you still have to make the shot.
Simplicity is gold, just follow the rules and have some fun and enjoyment with the company your with, as far as I know no one will be driving away with a new car for first place.:wink:


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

IBQUIKER said:


> Does it realy matter? When your glassing out of the box you can tell where the first shooter put his arrow, if he's got a good shot, you'll have a reference point unless he put it in the bush, and no matter how long you stare at the target you still have to make the shot.
> Simplicity is gold, just follow the rules and have some fun and enjoyment with the company your with, as far as I know no one will be driving away with a new car for first place.:wink:


I just asked for the reasoning that was all. If I am looking from an angle other than what I am shooting, this will change what I am aiming at when I am shooting where it be a person arrow or where I belive the 11 to be


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

cath8r said:


> The no-bino thing has always been a silly rule. "Vote with your feet" is the way to treat anything you don't like about a shoot. If the rule is followed, 2 minutes for the first shooter and 1 minute for the rest, and enforced, there won't be any backups at 3D shoots.
> If people want to speed up 3D shoots, they should institute a rule of no looking for arrows until the shoot is done. That will make shoots faster and safer...


If I can't look for my arrows how am ever going to finish a shoot


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Hey guys don`t the rules state in fca and oaa and Ibo first guy can bino from peg and all others can bino outside the box lets say... One of the biggest problems is the guy who shoots then binos to see where he shot, that is against the rules I think for sure guess what the arrow ain`t going to move from the time the shot was made till you score it.... If you must check your shot do so outside the box because in reality you are taking up the next 2 minutes to shoot also in the rules , And to all those that won`t attend common play by the rules and you won`t run into problems like this, How many times have you been behind some one who glasses then draws , puts down glasses again , draws again etc etc etc again against the rules if I remember correctly, I think once arrow nocked or bow drawn and you put down you cannot re bino, These rules where created so tournaments have all the shooters doing the same and in a timely manner,... C ripes I`m as blind as a bat and use binos but try my darnedest to follow the rules out lined... Some one should post the rules from the governing bodies so everybuddy knows what they are from each governing group... Just my 2 cents for what they are worth... Again how come you can come across agroup of shooters and have 2-3 empty targets in front of them and it was a shot gun start where every peg had a group at it to start??????? check what is around their necks:darkbeer:



Here is aling to the OAA site where all the rules are posted. I belive this follows the FCA pretty close. I can't find any thing about glassing targets. I can find is that every shooter has 2 min at the stake. But read it and let me know what you find. It is really a pretty good read. It will put you a sleep pretty quick
https://www.oaa-archery.on.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=24&Itemid=125


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

H.M. Murdock said:


> If I can't look for my arrows how am ever going to finish a shoot



LMMFAO!!!!!!!!!! I'm with him on this one.


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*so were do we go from here?*

Ted (classichuneter), you being the most experienced 3d/politician I know, what do you suggest we do.. we have to start a movement somehow.. I think the NB 1st bino rule kind of s.cks. but if that's the case I have a choice..(don't go) I'll think twice to go to the club Matty describes.. I guess my only alternative is to get in touch with friends (if I do go out.. and I'd like to start again, that was my reason for quiting in the first place) like Zaki and see which place has the best level playing field.. what kind of impression does moving vitals due to reconstructions and not having the ability to see without bino's , this leave with somebody.. not much .. those clubs seem to be against the OAA recomendations, should the OAA have outlines and if one doesn't follow those outlines then they can't advertise their shoot??(hard to inforce though..) I can assure you that Sean M, gets a pile of e-mail asking why are the rules a certain way..

Gilles


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

*Bino Rule Change At North Bay*

At our last exec meeting we voted in favour of changing the bino rule at the running bear tournament. 

New rule- 

*EACH SHOOTER HAS 2 MINS AT THE STAKE. YOUR TIME STARTS WHEN THE PREVIOUS SHOOTER RELEASES HIS/HER ARROW. *

You can do whatever you want in that 2 min window (glass, fiddle with bow, judge yadage etc.)

The old rule was in place to try and speed things up. But from my experience not many followed the rule anyways so it didn't actually speed things up. Also the rule included that shooters had a 2min window but couldn't glass. That just does make any sense, you can stand at the stake and stare at the target for 2 mins but you can't raise your bino's up. Anyways we talked about it and scratched the rule to make things more simplified.


So spread the word; NO WEIRD BINO RULE AT RUNNING BEAR IN NORTH BAY.

If you guys have any other suggestions for the Running Bear then let me know. Thanks


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## Pic (Sep 12, 2003)

The big shoot in St-Zenon Quebec has a NO BINO rule...BUT...there is a nice white line aroundt the 10..no x's, 11's or 12's. As far as I know..no complaints, because you can see the 10 line...all the way out to 50+ yards.

Serge


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## Big F (Aug 20, 2004)

*bino's and 3d*

I've only seen one rule enforced at an fca 3d championship before that applies to shooters with moveable sights/scope. A group member was told that they could not move their sight after looking through the bino's. This would mean that the archer approaches the stake, judges the yardage, dials in the yardage into the sight, and than can look into the bino's. 

This rule is meant to dampen the effect of rangefinding with bino's. Once the distance is dialed in on the sight and the bino's come up, the sight can not be moved again. I've seen archers break this rule, and go beyond to another level. Some walk up to the stake, put down there bow and start glassing the target while adjusting them back and forth...never make an attempt to look to grid out the ground for distances, never judge for focus points and never look at the size of targets with the naked eye for distance...they just look through there bino's, than look to see where the adjustment dial lyes and set there yardage scale. I've seen this done in national events during difficult longer shots in an attempt to gain an advantage. This is an extreme let down to see a fellow archer do this. 

The point is if bino's are to be allowed/used proper rules and guidelines need to be set out. It bothers me when people say 'who cares', 'does it really matter' and 'simplicity is gold'. Guess what, it does matter where people are allowed to glass targets and it does matter when there allowed to glass and so on. The playing field needs to be level and cheaters need to be weeded out.

My post was alot longer but decided its not worth it. I'm going to work on somthing to submit to Adam in the next month to bring up in the oaa agm for moveable sights...we'll see how it goes.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*ok here*

Murdock
You had to make me go look at the oaa 
I owe you one here took ten minuets and 2 rums to find as under cameras and rangefinders lol

section 11.9.2 page 157 I think rums kicking in now

You can bino at the peg but once arrow is shot you cannot re bino to check shot 5 point deduction , next person can bino from peg but is under the 2 minute rule if I remembered correctly from the time I read it till I posted this lol 

And who is the masked man that calls me the 3d politican is that you rob... 
Practice hard for the running bear... I want it to be shot at dusk again lol 

Don`t worry ming everybody will be there Binos on as usual and if its a recore who`s to say the animal didn`t a transplant or bypass lol see you guys there ....


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Isn't the rule at National events (IBO and ASA) that you can't adjust your sight after having come to full draw? I think its legal to glass the target and then adjust your sight afterward. I hear you though, Andrew, that it is discouraging to see when people are obviously using the bino's as a rangefinder.
Using bino's help to figure range legally by seeing if the target is angled, if it is sitting higher on the stakes, seeing if the ground drops off before the target etc etc. So I think that they are a good tool to the 3D game, especially if you don't have access to the targets at home so you can get a look at where the rings are. Its uncool to see someone playing the 'focus dial' game.


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## btmckay (Dec 7, 2003)

Rob
The rule in IBO is that you are not allowed to adjust your sight 
after you looked through your binos at the shooting stake. But 
you are allowed to glass while waiting for your turn.
Ted
There is nothing in the rules about reglassing the target if you 
let down, only that you have 2 mins to complete your shot. 
James 
Thanks for clearing up about the bino rule for the Running
Bear. This is a fun tournament that I like to attend.

Brian


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## Big F (Aug 20, 2004)

btmckay said:


> Rob
> The rule in IBO is that you are not allowed to adjust your sight
> after you looked through your binos at the shooting stake. But
> you are allowed to glass while waiting for your turn.
> ...



Yes. FCA 3d rules are set up to follow IBO rules. Since the OAA has aligned with the FCA, I would assume all three are the same now. Figure I'd put somthing in writing anyway to make it clearer.

Rob I hear you about the angle of the target thing and the possibility that the target isn't pushed down into the ground all the way (I call those flying or floating targets)...but dealing with that is part of the game.

Andrew


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## 3D-GURU (Apr 1, 2003)

*Not me Ted*



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Murdock
> 
> 
> And who is the masked man that calls me the 3d politican is that you rob...
> ...


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

3D-GURU said:


> What I didn't like was the rule change to max 8.5 power for binos, which was also enforced at the FCA's last year, even though I could use any magnification I liked for my crossbow scope. Alot of people were using 10x and had to go get new ones this year. Fortunately for me, I know where to get them for a good deal!!:wink::wink:
> 
> Rob


The OAA did not adopt the 8.5 power rule.

11.9.1 *[FCA Similar] *Camera or range-finding devices are not allowed on any of the shooting ranges regardless of use. Handheld binoculars are allowed. All binoculars must bear the manufacturer’s original markings showing their maximum power.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Ohhh good...so we follow FCA rules(but not all of them,just the ones we want), and they follow IBO rules(but not all of them, just the ones they want)...and the IBO sucks...lol... ok...got it now:wink:



CaptainT said:


> The OAA did not adopt the 8.5 power rule.
> 
> 11.9.1 *[FCA Similar] *Camera or range-finding devices are not allowed on any of the shooting ranges regardless of use. Handheld binoculars are allowed. All binoculars must bear the manufacturer’s original markings showing their maximum power.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Ok*

3-d guru I mean rob good to hear from you ,,, Do I know gilles who you say does not shoot 3-d Have I met him and where and what are some of his traits so I can remember him as my mind is failing short term is gone for sure ...


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> 3-d guru I mean rob good to hear from you ,,, Do I know gilles who you say does not shoot 3-d Have I met him and where and what are some of his traits so I can remember him as my mind is failing short term is gone for sure ...



come on guys be nice.. one of these days Rob..


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## tru-force ss (Mar 25, 2008)

Why do people alway mess with a good thing??? .........if it ain't broken....


Besides when you hit your forties with my binocs I can't see anything


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*ok ok ok*

Ontario moose I mean gilles I hope that I did not tick you off ,, I`m just trying really to place your face,, Seems you know me but I have a real problem with names not faces and that was caused by my bypass surgery a few years ago... After the surgery 2-3 months I had to tell my heart specialist can`t remember names and short term mem is gone .. He looks at me and goes oh ya thats one of the side effects of the surgery because we recycle your blood going to your brain as your heart is not pumping... Great I go, I guess my 40 years in sales at the retail level is gone . He replies ya ... Oh well more time to shoot lol.. So don`t be offended anyone if I look at you a bit strange and I can`t remmber your name... Oh ya who am I talking too lol lol ...Good shooting everyone and be safe....:darkbeer:


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

You got it :darkbeer:



ZarkSniper said:


> Ohhh good...so we follow FCA rules(but not all of them,just the ones we want), and they follow IBO rules(but not all of them, just the ones they want)...and the IBO sucks...lol... ok...got it now:wink:


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*sorry wrong guy..*



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Ontario moose I mean gilles I hope that I did not tick you off ,, I`m just trying really to place your face,, Seems you know me but I have a real problem with names not faces and that was caused by my bypass surgery a few years ago... After the surgery 2-3 months I had to tell my heart specialist can`t remember names and short term mem is gone .. He looks at me and goes oh ya thats one of the side effects of the surgery because we recycle your blood going to your brain as your heart is not pumping... Great I go, I guess my 40 years in sales at the retail level is gone . He replies ya ... Oh well more time to shoot lol.. So don`t be offended anyone if I look at you a bit strange and I can`t remmber your name... Oh ya who am I talking too lol lol ...Good shooting everyone and be safe....:darkbeer:


sorry CH.. I though you were Big-F big dad.. anyway have fun in NB, it's the same time as the provincial fields..

hey Rob, offer still stands, take me to a 3d, I take you to a field shoot and I'll up the anti.. you don't like your day and I'll refund your money.. expect for the OAA provincials.. don't forget in my time I won most of the 3d shoots NE ontario.. didn't win overall running bear, but won BHUNL twice, top score of the year at Jimbows, Moose Shoot Sudbury (almost cleaned the entire course), first clean round in Temiskaming indoor 3D.. not tooting my horn, just want to make sure you thought I was born a paper puncher.. finished ahead of you at the wolf's den oaa 3d just to name a fiew..


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## 3D-GURU (Apr 1, 2003)

Well, if that isn't TOOTING your own horn, I don't know what is. No thanks on the offer Gilles, I'm not interested in proving anything on the 3D course anymore, or having you prove anything to me either for that matter. 

Some people wondered why I have really backed off on my shoots last year and this, well this is the exact reason. I don't need to prove to you how big my genitals are. I much prefer to go out and shoot for fun now. Seems I finally realized that some people in this sport still don't look at this as just a game, and practise for hunting season. As mentioned before, nobody wins any cars or anything, do they??

Besides Gilles, I never said I was BETTER than you, I said you don't shoot 3D. You don't. You have told me that many times, and also said it did not interest you anymore. I think it was right around the time that Foghorn said that 3D was beneath him. Have fun.

Rob


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*my impression was*



3D-GURU said:


> Well, if that isn't TOOTING your own horn, I don't know what is. No thanks on the offer Gilles, I'm not interested in proving anything on the 3D course anymore, or having you prove anything to me either for that matter.
> 
> Some people wondered why I have really backed off on my shoots last year and this, well this is the exact reason. I don't need to prove to you how big my genitals are. I much prefer to go out and shoot for fun now. Seems I finally realized that some people in this sport still don't look at this as just a game, and practise for hunting season. As mentioned before, nobody wins any cars or anything, do they??
> 
> ...


Lighten up Rob.. it's just for fun.. ha!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*ontario moose*

gilles you might as well take rob to a field shoot because between jonesie or me the money I hope is coming to the ottawa area lol ooops sorry there rob again lol lol Ah banter isn`t it just gggrrrreat....:darkbeer:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Who can afford to go to a 3D shoot in Ontario anymore anyways????
Price of gas makes me want to stay home and just forfeit any archery glory to Matt Tyhurst.


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*that awesome*



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> gilles you might as well take rob to a field shoot because between jonesie or me the money I hope is coming to the ottawa area lol ooops sorry there rob again lol lol Ah banter isn`t it just gggrrrreat....:darkbeer:



Hey.. that's great to hear.. as in all things, the one that walks the talk usally can take home the money.. the ones just out to have fun don't need bino's..


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

cath8r said:


> Who can afford to go to a 3D shoot in Ontario anymore anyways????
> Price of gas makes me want to stay home and just forfeit any archery glory to Matt Tyhurst.


wow ..... times must be real tough there cath8r ..... I'd rather give my money to Exxon, than forfeit any glory to him :embara:


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

pintojk said:


> wow ..... times must be real tough there cath8r ..... I'd rather give my money to Exxon, than forfeit any glory to him :embara:


Alright Its on now. Name the time and place


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

You guy listen to big F....a.k.a "the Freak"

He knows what he's talkn' bout.

He's educated :yo:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

.... uhhh.... that's 'edg-emu-cated' there blowie...

... that bugspray sure is hard on your spelling.

Archery is cool! (must keep all posts archery related)


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

ZarkSniper said:


> There are a few clubs that don't allow it, that's their choice, but mine will be to *NOT *attend...Kent County being the #1 club I will NEVER go to again. You'll be linched if you walk in there with a target bow...


 That's funny because I was there recently and there were a few target bows. Maybe your opinion is based on ancient history. Sounds to me like you used a thread about BINO'S to bash a club for something not even related. That's my opinion anyway. 

Guys raise valid points here and to some of them I agree, but I sure wouldn't stop helping support any of your clubs just because I didn't like one of the rules. I'm not sure why they have the "no bino" rule but it sure isn't going to prevent me from shooting and enjoying archery.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Shooting at Kent County makes me not enjoy archery. I gotta agree with Zark on that one.
Man, I tried to bait that blowie a few posts back but he didn't bite. I must be losing my mojo.....


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## 56Bearbow (Jun 5, 2008)

so cat8er what club do you have your membership at I would like to shoot there and see if all the rule's are up to my standard's? So I can wine like a little *****! I will be shooting at K C all day PLEASE come on out.but leave your bino's at home.

You are leaning on the personal attack line with this one. There are other ways to get the point across. Please pick one. -hutnicks


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

AMA Sportsmens in Amherstburg. Also, Gesto Gamegetters and Kingsville WildGoose are good clubs too. Don't forget your bino's.....


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## Forsaken (Jun 8, 2008)

*binos*

i see no problem with binos,,, however,, i shot in the BC provincials several years back,, and it was enough to make me walk off the final day..
it was in kitwanga,, 30c 100 percent humidity.. two mountains,, skitters everywhere.. i walked off the final day with 4 targets left to shoot.. 9 freaking hours to get that far... were we held up from the group in front NOPE.. we were held up by members of my group.. who insisted on pushing the two minute time limit to the max..(read 4-5 minutes on the line) i complained the judges warned them.. and then disappeared.. i was so pissed off i would walk to the line,, judge distance, draw, and release in under 20 seconds.. trying to make a point.. i still placed 4th in unlimited.

use of binos is fine.. my suggestion.. if you got em.. you time on the line drops to 30 seconds.. and a judge should nail you with an instant DQ if you break the time limit.. thats just me.. spouting,, it was enough that i didnt go to another shoot for a couple of years.. 

forsaken


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

cath8r said:


> AMA Sportsmens in Amherstburg. Also, Gesto Gamegetters and Kingsville WildGoose are good clubs too. Don't forget your bino's.....




you also could go to Lambton-Kent Archers and bring your range finder as well as your Binos.


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

Forsaken said:


> i see no problem with binos,,, however,, i shot in the BC provincials several years back,, and it was enough to make me walk off the final day..
> it was in kitwanga,, 30c 100 percent humidity.. two mountains,, skitters everywhere.. i walked off the final day with 4 targets left to shoot.. 9 freaking hours to get that far... were we held up from the group in front NOPE.. we were held up by members of my group.. who insisted on pushing the two minute time limit to the max..(read 4-5 minutes on the line) i complained the judges warned them.. and then disappeared.. i was so pissed off i would walk to the line,, judge distance, draw, and release in under 20 seconds.. trying to make a point.. i still placed 4th in unlimited.
> 
> use of binos is fine.. my suggestion.. if you got em.. you time on the line drops to 30 seconds.. and a judge should nail you with an instant DQ if you break the time limit.. thats just me.. spouting,, it was enough that i didnt go to another shoot for a couple of years..
> ...


 This is about the only problem I see with the use of bino's. A few years ago, we took a group of kids to shoot the Triple Crown. It was the same as what you describe. It was boiling hot that day and it took us over 9 hours to shoot a 30 target round. We had to stand there and wait and wait and wait while guys stared at the same target through their binos. By the time we were done, the insides of the kids legs were so full of soars from the heat that they were just sick of it. After that day, I believe only one of the kids returned to archery. The rest hung it up and never bothered again.

I personally don't have a problem with the use of binos, it's the waiting and waiting while guys stare at the same target for minutes on end. The target hasn't moved any since the first guy shot it, so what's the need of taking longer to glass it again? There could be the use of them without wrecking it for those that don't care to use them. That's just my opinion.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

it would seem that most are opposed to the time limit of 2min for each archer to shoot, so why not just put a proposal in to limit the time down to what ever you think is needed or propose that 2 archers shoot at a time, the total course time would be cut in half after if it works in Field archery it will work for 3-D since both are shot in similar enviroments.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Maxtor said:


> This is about the only problem I see with the use of bino's. A few years ago, we took a group of kids to shoot the Triple Crown. It was the same as what you describe. It was boiling hot that day and it took us over 9 hours to shoot a 30 target round. We had to stand there and wait and wait and wait while guys stared at the same target through their binos. By the time we were done, the insides of the kids legs were so full of soars from the heat that they were just sick of it. After that day, I believe only one of the kids returned to archery. The rest hung it up and never bothered again.
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with the use of binos, it's the waiting and waiting while guys stare at the same target for minutes on end. The target hasn't moved any since the first guy shot it, so what's the need of taking longer to glass it again? There could be the use of them without wrecking it for those that don't care to use them. That's just my opinion.


Probably waiting for the heat mirage to clear

Time limit is the way to go here. It's not like your scouting for elk on the Tundra. Targets are all close and easily visible.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Range finders AND bino's Sean??!! 
Thats just crazy talk!


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

Sean McKenty said:


> you also could go to Lambton-Kent Archers and bring your range finder as well as your Binos.


 Didn't think you needed range finders here. Don't they have plates on the ground telling you the yardage?


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Binos didn't seem to slow things down at the R-100 this past weekend. 

:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Maxtor said:


> Didn't think you needed range finders here. Don't they have plates on the ground telling you the yardage?


Only if you are shooting a field or Hunter round


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

Maxtor said:


> Didn't think you needed range finders here. Don't they have plates on the ground telling you the yardage?




When we do run any 3-D we welcome rangefinders, they use them for hunting as well as binos, we use to have a seperate distance plate for the 3-D so you could shoot it unmarked if you wanted but opted to allow rangefinders, most didn't care and like to idea of useing them on the course, the funny thing was the scores didn't change from unmarked.


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## michigan bound (Jun 9, 2008)

*why not use bionculars?*

For one thing, you don't see deer or any other animal running around with a bright spot on them saying HIT ME HERE. It is about the guess and how well you think you judged your shot. When you go down to the targer and see that you got a vital hit. You can pat yourself on the back and say I GUESSED THAT ONE RIGHT. If you didn't get a good shot on the animal you live and learn. Practice some more and hopefully you can eventually be able to guess all your yardages and be ale to hit most of your shots. Most vitals on all animals are in the same place.Right behind the front leg in the bottom third of the animal when they are on all four. You don't need binoculars to see that. And as you have already stated, all the glassing does slow down the course. Good Luck in learning to shoot instictively, hope you can figure out your shots without the aid of binoculars. One last thing, I have never used binoculars to see my shot spot and shoot regularly 260 and higher. I also know other people who have never shot with binoculars and can shoot a near or on occasion a perfect score. All you need is practice.


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

@michigan_bound I've never once hunted and don't have any particular desire to in the forseeable future. For me, 3D is strictly target, so I really want to know where that spot is that I'm aiming for.


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

Sean McKenty said:


> When we do run any 3-D we welcome rangefinders, they use them for hunting as well as binos, we use to have a seperate distance plate for the 3-D so you could shoot it unmarked if you wanted but opted to allow rangefinders, most didn't care and like to idea of useing them on the course, the funny thing was the scores didn't change from unmarked.


 Are they holding any 3D shoots this year? Been trying to find out if they are and if so, what dates?


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

michigan bound said:


> For one thing, you don't see deer or any other animal running around with a bright spot on them saying HIT ME HERE. It is about the guess and how well you think you judged your shot. When you go down to the targer and see that you got a vital hit. You can pat yourself on the back and say I GUESSED THAT ONE RIGHT. If you didn't get a good shot on the animal you live and learn. Practice some more and hopefully you can eventually be able to guess all your yardages and be ale to hit most of your shots. Most vitals on all animals are in the same place.Right behind the front leg in the bottom third of the animal when they are on all four. You don't need binoculars to see that. And as you have already stated, all the glassing does slow down the course. Good Luck in learning to shoot instictively, hope you can figure out your shots without the aid of binoculars. One last thing, I have never used binoculars to see my shot spot and shoot regularly 260 and higher. I also know other people who have never shot with binoculars and can shoot a near or on occasion a perfect score. All you need is practice.



Under that theory the cosue should be marked yardage. Because I will never Hunt an animal usless I know how far it is. I will always make a shot that is a kill. I don't want any animal that I hunt to have to suffer.

I my opion the Kent County has a lot of fences to mend before some shooter start comming back, Kent couunry is the only place I have ever seen a standing bear on coil spring and have to try to shoot it while moving. Kent County is also the only place that i have that you shoot a target while you are moving.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

Maxtor said:


> Are they holding any 3D shoots this year? Been trying to find out if they are and if so, what dates?



No 3-D this year, last Field shoot this weekend on Sat or Sun.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

michigan bound said:


> For one thing, you don't see deer or any other animal running around with a bright spot on them saying HIT ME HERE. It is about the guess and how well you think you judged your shot. When you go down to the targer and see that you got a vital hit. You can pat yourself on the back and say I GUESSED THAT ONE RIGHT. If you didn't get a good shot on the animal you live and learn. Practice some more and hopefully you can eventually be able to guess all your yardages and be ale to hit most of your shots. Most vitals on all animals are in the same place.Right behind the front leg in the bottom third of the animal when they are on all four. You don't need binoculars to see that. And as you have already stated, all the glassing does slow down the course. Good Luck in learning to shoot instictively, hope you can figure out your shots without the aid of binoculars. One last thing, I have never used binoculars to see my shot spot and shoot regularly 260 and higher. I also know other people who have never shot with binoculars and can shoot a near or on occasion a perfect score. All you need is practice.




Well 3-D isn't about hunting its about shooting your arrow into the highest scoring ring. The vitals vary alot betwen targets what would be a solid kill scores a 5 in some cases many score 8. As for guessing for hunting, never have never will. I use my binos and rangefinder to scope out distances to trees,shrubs etc. hunting unmarked is a risk I don't take. Since allowing rangefinders along with binos we have not seen any downfalls and many like the idea of useing all of their hunting gear.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

It's related...I have been there MANY times in the past. Yes it was quite a few years ago and I was even told I can shoot my target bow, but they didn't support the OPEN or Freestyle class...just the "hunting" classes so I had to donate my money without the opportunity to compete...Yay. I was also told I couldn't use Bino's, my argument...."I'm not competing, you don't even have me in a class, so what's the difference?" "It's not allowed, because it's not hunting gear" Alllrighty then.

I went back a few times, usually just because others I knew were going....always the same story....So I stopped donating.

I didn't say you couldn't shoot your target bow...Oh, you can...but if you do, they give you a serious look of disgust, like you just shot their best friend. They tend to be alot nicer if you show up with all your camo gear on though...:wink: 



Maxtor said:


> That's funny because I was there recently and there were a few target bows. Maybe your opinion is based on ancient history. Sounds to me like you used a thread about BINO'S to bash a club for something not even related. That's my opinion anyway.
> 
> Guys raise valid points here and to some of them I agree, but I sure wouldn't stop helping support any of your clubs just because I didn't like one of the rules. I'm not sure why they have the "no bino" rule but it sure isn't going to prevent me from shooting and enjoying archery.


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

H.M. Murdock said:


> I my opion the Kent County has a lot of fences to mend before some shooter start comming back, Kent couunry is the only place I have ever seen a standing bear on coil spring and have to try to shoot it while moving. Kent County is also the only place that i have that you shoot a target while you are moving.


 Two things I would like to point out here. First you say that Kent County has a lot of fences to mend before shooters start coming back. Could you explain to me how a club is supposed to mend these fences if the shooters DON'T come back? Are they supposed to drive right to your house and fix things there? They have to be given a chance before anything can be fixed. There is a post that states that the club is under new management but yet you still hold this grudge because of things in the past. So because of what "SOME" did to you in the past, you hold it against even new members and new management. That kind of says something about the type of person that you are. 
Also, the moving targets would have been at what is called their NOVELTY SHOOT or Spring Shoot. It happens one weekend out of every year and that's what it's all about. It's meant to have different things in it so that everyone can have a good time. It's unfortunate that you couldn't leave the seriousness behind for one weekend and truly enjoy the shoot. 

*@ZarkSniper* You're right, it must have been quite a few years ago because I have been going to that club for 12 years now and there has always been a OPEN and an UNLIMITED class. They even have a different colored flag for each group. Whether or not you got strange looks or a " serious look of disgust" as you put it, I can't say as I wasn't there. But I can tell you that it sure doesn't happen now. Although I don't have a target bow, because I can't afford two bows and use mine for hunting as well, I still love to see all the different bows there and see the new designs that are coming out. It also gives others a chance to see all the new gear out like sights, releases, etc. 

It's very unfortunate that a club as a whole, is still being punished for something that you both say happened years ago. New faces come along with every club, and with them come new ideas.


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Wow .. there is an hour of my life I will never get back .... 

9 hours to do 30 targets just because of 2 guys binos .. I gotta call BS on that .. I wasnt there but I would say that there was a little more to it than that ... 

3D in my opinion owes its roots to hunting as 3D started as hunting practice ... Now that said .. 3D has evolved to so much more than just hunting practice ..its now a target competion (for the most part) I mean really ... When was the last time any one of *You* hunted a 2' high stegasaurous or a 2' high mosquito for that matter. I really have no idea about Ontario but out here we have more targets than just Mackenzie deer .... Believe you me .. a Mosquito at 30 some yards I needed my binos to see where the rings are because I had never seen one before this season .

truth be told if you look at most 3D targets out there .. atomically they are are not correct shot placements ...especially if quarterd slightly ... even a standard Mackenzie deer ... quartering away to get an effective kill shot off .. you are flirting with a 5 score ..

Binos will always be a part of 3D ...for 2 reasons ... great for aquiring the target ... and Binos will always be a part of your hunting kit


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

Actually, Rinehart are doing a great job on adding extra vital areas for when the animal is quartered away. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a lot of Rinehart but really like what I have seen so far. I can see McKenzie following suit on that.


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Maxtor said:


> Actually, Rinehart are doing a great job on adding extra vital areas for when the animal is quartered away. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a lot of Rinehart but really like what I have seen so far. I can see McKenzie following suit on that.



you are right .. the 2 zones on most are nice ... I like the treestand quartering deer ... where the rings are high and back ...and actually correct for a great treestand shot ... but I have had to shoot it broadside from equal plane before ... another great arguement for Binos ... if I was to shoot it where the zone normally is ..ie 6" above the arm pit... it woulda been a nickle 

I hope you are correct about Mackenzie/Delta or whatever their name is this week


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Unfortunately I talk to alot of people that have been to the club recently and they still witness some craziness at Kent County. I just laugh and think, yep, sounds the same as it was before. Who knows...maybe I will take you at your word and give it another try one day...can I use my bino's now?


When I said quite a few years, I meant 6-7...not 12... :wink:



Maxtor said:


> Two things I would like to point out here. First you say that Kent County has a lot of fences to mend before shooters start coming back. Could you explain to me how a club is supposed to mend these fences if the shooters DON'T come back? Are they supposed to drive right to your house and fix things there? They have to be given a chance before anything can be fixed. There is a post that states that the club is under new management but yet you still hold this grudge because of things in the past. So because of what "SOME" did to you in the past, you hold it against even new members and new management. That kind of says something about the type of person that you are.
> Also, the moving targets would have been at what is called their NOVELTY SHOOT or Spring Shoot. It happens one weekend out of every year and that's what it's all about. It's meant to have different things in it so that everyone can have a good time. It's unfortunate that you couldn't leave the seriousness behind for one weekend and truly enjoy the shoot.
> 
> *@ZarkSniper* You're right, it must have been quite a few years ago because I have been going to that club for 12 years now and there has always been a OPEN and an UNLIMITED class. They even have a different colored flag for each group. Whether or not you got strange looks or a " serious look of disgust" as you put it, I can't say as I wasn't there. But I can tell you that it sure doesn't happen now. Although I don't have a target bow, because I can't afford two bows and use mine for hunting as well, I still love to see all the different bows there and see the new designs that are coming out. It also gives others a chance to see all the new gear out like sights, releases, etc.
> ...


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

ZarkSniper said:


> It's related...I have been there MANY times in the past. Yes it was quite a few years ago and I was even told I can shoot my target bow, but they didn't support the OPEN or Freestyle class...just the "hunting" classes so I had to donate my money without the opportunity to compete...Yay. I was also told I couldn't use Bino's, my argument...."I'm not competing, you don't even have me in a class, so what's the difference?" "It's not allowed, because it's not hunting gear" Alllrighty then.
> 
> I went back a few times, usually just because others I knew were going....always the same story....So I stopped donating.
> 
> I didn't say you couldn't shoot your target bow...Oh, you can...but if you do, they give you a serious look of disgust, like you just shot their best friend. They tend to be alot nicer if you show up with all your camo gear on though...:wink:


I've been pondering this one with quite some interest. Perhaps the solution is a Blaze Orange target bow, best of both worlds really:embara:


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> I've been pondering this one with quite some interest. Perhaps the solution is a Blaze Orange target bow, best of both worlds really:embara:


Now THAT is funny 

Hunter Orange........ 

On a more serious note, I would sincerely hope that no club, or organization, would be so short sighted as to not try to be as inclusive as possible. Afterall, it's all about enjoying the sport is it not?


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## Mr.LIFETIME (Apr 12, 2006)

On a more serious note, I would sincerely hope that no club, or organization, would be so short sighted as to not try to be as inclusive as possible. Afterall, it's all about enjoying the sport is it not?[/QUOTE]



Very well said Dennis.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Maxtor said:


> Two things I would like to point out here. First you say that Kent County has a lot of fences to mend before shooters start coming back. Could you explain to me how a club is supposed to mend these fences if the shooters DON'T come back? Are they supposed to drive right to your house and fix things there? They have to be given a chance before anything can be fixed. There is a post that states that the club is under new management but yet you still hold this grudge because of things in the past. So because of what "SOME" did to you in the past, you hold it against even new members and new management. That kind of says something about the type of person that you are.
> Also, the moving targets would have been at what is called their NOVELTY SHOOT or Spring Shoot. It happens one weekend out of every year and that's what it's all about. It's meant to have different things in it so that everyone can have a good time. It's unfortunate that you couldn't leave the seriousness behind for one weekend and truly enjoy the shoot.
> 
> *@ZarkSniper* You're right, it must have been quite a few years ago because I have been going to that club for 12 years now and there has always been a OPEN and an UNLIMITED class. They even have a different colored flag for each group. Whether or not you got strange looks or a " serious look of disgust" as you put it, I can't say as I wasn't there. But I can tell you that it sure doesn't happen now. Although I don't have a target bow, because I can't afford two bows and use mine for hunting as well, I still love to see all the different bows there and see the new designs that are coming out. It also gives others a chance to see all the new gear out like sights, releases, etc.
> ...


Well I really don't know how you know what kind of person that I am. I guess I can't comment on the new managment and new members but I do know that the property owner has never made me feel welcome on the course. Has this changed? If there is new members and mangment why not allow bino's on the course


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

H.M. Murdock said:


> Well I really don't know how you know what kind of person that I am. I guess I can't comment on the new managment and new members but I do know that *the property owner* has never made me feel welcome on the course. Has this changed? If there is new members and mangment why not allow bino's on the course


 It's a little bit more complicated than the new management and members just saying okay, binos are allowed now. You mentioned the reason in the above quote. The property owner is the one that enforces the "no bino" rule. He's the one that started the club and even though the club rents the land, and he's not an executive, we still have to live by his rule. Make sense? 

Trust me, I wish we could just change the rule and see all kinds of people come out and enjoy a day of shooting with us but our hands are really tied here. Shooters aren't the only ones that are running off, so are long time members.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Maxtor said:


> It's a little bit more complicated than the new management and members just saying okay, binos are allowed now. You mentioned the reason in the above quote. The property owner is the one that enforces the "no bino" rule. He's the one that started the club and even though the club rents the land, and he's not an executive, we still have to live by his rule. Make sense?
> 
> Trust me, I wish we could just change the rule and see all kinds of people come out and enjoy a day of shooting with us but our hands are really tied here. Shooters aren't the only ones that are running off, so are long time members.


With this information it seems to me that things can never really change. Kent County is under the control of the land owner. Are we beating a dead horse?


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

H.M. Murdock said:


> With this information it seems to me that things can never really change. Kent County is under the control of the land owner. Are we beating a dead horse?


Hot Damn! A Fifedom! How much more trad could you get than that. Longbows all around for the serfs please:wink:


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Maxtor said:


> It's a little bit more complicated than the new management and members just saying okay, binos are allowed now. You mentioned the reason in the above quote. The property owner is the one that enforces the "no bino" rule. He's the one that started the club and even though the club rents the land, and he's not an executive, we still have to live by his rule. Make sense?
> 
> Trust me, I wish we could just change the rule and see all kinds of people come out and enjoy a day of shooting with us but our hands are really tied here. Shooters aren't the only ones that are running off, so are long time members.


lemme get this straight ... the club is letting a guy with no position in the club anymore make the rules .... ya ..ya'll got problems ... 

hey i got a rule for you ... "Everyone must sing the Bob the Builder song while on Course" Over and over again ... I'm not a club exec .. but evidently I can make rules that must be enforced. 

Seriously .. It sounds like a time for the current exec and membership to grow a backbone ... I am sure there is more to it than whats listed ... but if the reason above is the major reason .......WOW!!!!!


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

Bowzone_Mikey said:


> lemme get this straight ... the club is letting a guy with no position in the club anymore make the rules .... ya ..ya'll got problems ...
> 
> hey i got a rule for you ... "Everyone must sing the Bob the Builder song while on Course" Over and over again ... I'm not a club exec .. but evidently I can make rules that must be enforced.
> 
> Seriously .. It sounds like a time for the current exec and membership to grow a backbone ... I am sure there is more to it than whats listed ... but if the reason above is the major reason .......WOW!!!!!


 You got land that you're willing to rent out to the club? Not likely. Easy for guys to put down a club and say the executives have no backbone but apparently you haven't noticed that land for clubs isn't easy to come by around here. Look at Lambton Archers. For a while there, they thought they were going to have to fold because of a land problem. So what would you suggest there Mr. "Bob the Builder"? How could they get rid of this rule without pissing off the land owner and having to look for new land to have a club on? Maybe the ones that would like to see the bino rule changed, could just say "screw it" and leave the club and join one of the others in our area. That would mean going to one, maybe two clubs without having to drive a long distance. But out of those two, the choices suck just as bad. One club doesn't hold any 3D this year, they would rather people drive at $1.30/liter to shoot at paper. The other club, held one shoot and then no one ever heard from them again. There's been no dates set for another shoot. 
I don't see a whole lot of alternatives here but I'll pass on any suggestions you might have :thumbs_up


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Maxtor said:


> You got land that you're willing to rent out to the club? Not likely. Easy for guys to put down a club and say the executives have no backbone but apparently you haven't noticed that land for clubs isn't easy to come by around here. Look at Lamb ton Archers. For a while there, they thought they were going to have to fold because of a land problem. So what would you suggest there Mr. "Bob the Builder"? How could they get rid of this rule without pissing off the land owner and having to look for new land to have a club on? Maybe the ones that would like to see the bino rule changed, could just say "screw it" and leave the club and join one of the others in our area. That would mean going to one, maybe two clubs without having to drive a long distance. But out of those two, the choices suck just as bad. One club doesn't hold any 3D this year, they would rather people drive at $1.30/liter to shoot at paper. The other club, held one shoot and then no one ever heard from them again. There's been no dates set for another shoot.
> I don't see a whole lot of alternatives here but I'll pass on any suggestions you might have :thumbs_up



Lambton Kent archers held 3d's shoots last year and very few people attended. I will be damned if I going to put out and take down 30 targets for hand full a people to shoot so I guess there is no one to blame expect the 3D arches that didn't show up. So why would I want to spend a 1.30 a liter to shoot your club and not be able to use my bino's they are part of target and hunting equipment. So to me Kent County Bowhunter sucks the worst of any of the clubs in the Lambton and Kent county since your not able to shoot your equipment


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Maxtor said:


> You got land that you're willing to rent out to the club? Not likely. Easy for guys to put down a club and say the executives have no backbone but apparently you haven't noticed that land for clubs isn't easy to come by around here. Look at Lambton Archers. For a while there, they thought they were going to have to fold because of a land problem. So what would you suggest there Mr. "Bob the Builder"? How could they get rid of this rule without pissing off the land owner and having to look for new land to have a club on? Maybe the ones that would like to see the bino rule changed, could just say "screw it" and leave the club and join one of the others in our area. That would mean going to one, maybe two clubs without having to drive a long distance. But out of those two, the choices suck just as bad. One club doesn't hold any 3D this year, they would rather people drive at $1.30/liter to shoot at paper. The other club, held one shoot and then no one ever heard from them again. There's been no dates set for another shoot.
> I don't see a whole lot of alternatives here but I'll pass on any suggestions you might have :thumbs_up



Actually I do have land access ..but would be a hell of a commute .... Its very simple for the club exec to go to the land owner and simply say *" Hey Boss... umm ya we've noticed our shoot attendance dropping drastically lately ..and word around the campfire is, that its because of that no Binos rule .... Could you please consider lifting the Bino Ban for our shoots?"* 
If you club does that one of two things will happen ...
1: he will say no and your club will likely fold because of it eventully..so you wouldnt have to worry about the land issue anyway 
2: He will ok and Champaine will fall from the heavens and shoot attendance will go up eventully and once again your club will be amoung the Elite .. 

But seriously ...I have no clue what the land situation is like out there ..is your club on his land .. I suspect probally a 1/4 section (360 acres)..all year or just for your shoot weekend ??...If its just for the weekend ... I bet if you go to 10 other owners with a proposal to rent their property 5 of them would eventully say yes ..might hafta hagle on price a bit ... but most everyone is out to make an easy buck without having to do anything


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

@Murdock After reading everything you have put here, it would appear to me that maybe it's not *YOU* that's benefiting from your lack of attendance at the club. :wink:

Mikey, the issue has been raised numerous times with the land owner and from your two choices, number one appears to be the winner. He owns the entire land that the club is on, and in fact, he is the one that started the club in the very beginning. There are shoots held every Sunday, not just once a month, and they start as soon as the snow is melted enough for them to get in there and runs until the beginning of June. The shoots are held regardless of the numbers of shooters because unlike others, there are people willing to put in the work for anyone that wants to shoot. Maybe that helps explain why the executives of the club are stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## Farley (Aug 1, 2005)

I find it strange that people will go to shoots that have oddball shots, tricky shots, SNEAKY shots, or a combonations of all 3 and say "oh well, thats part of the shoot", but take away one of your toys and all hell breaks loose. Isn't it a simple matter? Would it kill you to go to one of those shoots and consider it a novelty? What's at stake here? (no pun intended) The top guys are always going to win and the rest will always be the rest. I set up the 3D course for the Ottawa Archers tournaments and always include a couple of shots to mess people up, not one person complains, they just call me a sneaky bugger, figure thats how Ottawa does it and get on with life. There are alot of things used in 3D that you won't see in the woods (mostly) but they are allowed, what's the problem with losing one of them?


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Honestly, the no bino rule doesn't bug me too much at Kent. All the shots are 25 yards or under, shooting through sticks. Thats why I don't go. Also the longish drive for me to shoot a course that doesn't turn my crank. Even if I brought my hunting rig, I'd be taking shots that I wouldn't take at living animals. Not realistic for hunting practice, not realistic for 3D competition practice, can't use my bino's, $1.30 gas.....
... it being a free country and all, I'll pass and shoot field or a better club if I'm gonna drive that far.


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Maxtor;7047257................
Mikey said:


> well since ya put it that way ... if the club is getting attendance and is happy with it ...then there is no issue ...Its mentioned that the shots are 25 yards or less ...if one can see the rings at 25 yrds ...well you get the picture...
> 
> If you dont mind my curiousity however i dont think it was mentioned WHY the boss dont let binos on his property ... It strikes me as odd .. thats all


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

To be honest, I don't fully understand the reasoning behind it either. From what I gather is, he feels that the use of binos turns it into a "target shooting" club and he began the club as strictly a bow hunting club. I'd like to correct a couple things that were stated earlier. First, not all the shots are 25 yards and under. There are a few that go out to 30 - 35 but because of the way the bush is laid out, it's difficult to get 40 yard shots. This again goes back to his "bow hunting" club theory in that, real life hunting shots don't need to be taken at 40 yards. Most shots are taken at 25 yards and under. Which brings us to the mentioning of all the shots being through branches. That's not true either. There are two times through the season when they can be like that. The Spring Shoot which I mentioned earlier, which is a novelty shoot and again at the Traditional Shoot. The Traditional Shoot, in my opinion, gets a little extreme and I believe that is contributing to the lower attendance every year, but that shoot is strictly set up by the land owner and he decides how that shoot is run. 

A lot of the shots are set up to where the shot is taken from an elevated platform, trying to simulate actual hunting conditions. If someone were to choose to shoot from the ground instead of the platform, then yes, I could see there being branches in the way. 

I would like to see the no bino rule changed, I really would. Along with that, they also need to change their scoring system because they score 20, 16, 8 instead of 10, 8, 5. The reason for this is,,,,,,well, I have no clue why it's like that. To make matters even more difficult in getting these changed is, the land owners son was voted in as President this last year. (that's a long story) Although he has done a pretty good job so far, it just makes it that much more difficult for the executives to stand up and say "look, we want that rule changed" because I don't see him standing up to his dad about the bino rule.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*?????*

ok now we get the picture....THIS IS THE OLD BOYS CLUB...... Its a group of trad shooters shooting 25 yd shots and having fun doing it...It is their venue and seems thats the way they want it....so be it..... Its low maintenance and low stress.... Answer to this is either buy a tradtional bow or don`t attend... try the trad bow thing you might like it and only have 50-100 dollars outlay... If you where a golfer this would be one of those par 3 - 9 hole golf courses in the middle of a city. not a liking to the good golfers but a 4 club course ... best scenario I could come up with... Its to bad that we weren`t told about branches and 25 yd shots up front or this thread might have stayed to ONE PAGE ONLY LOL HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND GUYS......:darkbeer:


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## vyrtual (Feb 12, 2008)

personally, the only reason I use the bino's is too see the rings. I can't see them with the naked eye past 20 yards on some of the targets, especially the really dark ones. Some of us have only been to one 3d shoot and don't know where all the "bonus" rings are (12, 14's) so we have to check. 

If someone wants to cheat, they're going to cheat, they'll find a way. Sucks to be them, but that's the way it is. plus, some of the rings on target are odd. Example, I've never hunted a stegosaurus in the wild, or an alligator for that matter, we don't have them in canada you see... or a velociraptor for that matter lol. 

When you're hunting, you just shoot dead into the kill zone, so a one centimeter difference between the 10 and the 10x isn't an issue, but on a scored course it is, and everyone should have the right to see it clearly. Just like they don't hide the targets in the olympics lol. "yeah, the targets there we've just put this blanket over top, just shoot for the middle. Oh yeah, we've also but in a bonus 14 point ring somewhere off to the side. You'll have to just guess where that is and hopefully get lucky" LOL


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

vyrtual said:


> personally, the only reason I use the bino's is too see the rings. I can't see them with the naked eye past 20 yards on some of the targets, especially the really dark ones. Some of us have only been to one 3d shoot and don't know where all the "bonus" rings are (12, 14's) so we have to check.
> 
> If someone wants to cheat, they're going to cheat, they'll find a way. Sucks to be them, but that's the way it is. plus, some of the rings on target are odd. Example, I've never hunted a stegosaurus in the wild, or an alligator for that matter, we don't have them in canada you see... or a velociraptor for that matter lol.
> 
> When you're hunting, you just shoot dead into the kill zone, so a one centimeter difference between the 10 and the 10x isn't an issue, but on a scored course it is, and everyone should have the right to see it clearly. Just like they don't hide the targets in the olympics lol. "yeah, the targets there we've just put this blanket over top, just shoot for the middle. Oh yeah, we've also but in a bonus 14 point ring somewhere off to the side. You'll have to just guess where that is and hopefully get lucky" LOL


Be more like having the 90M a blank white paper with penciled in rings. Just shoot for the centre folks, bound to catch a ring in there somewhere!:wink:


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

2 things... 

First... are crossbows with scopes allowed? Are crossbows allowed at all?..... do you see where I am going with this?

Second... is there any way that you could get the land owner or his son to accidently see this thread? I mean if he saw the bickering he may reconsider...

I used to shoot Kent county for years a long time ago (15-20). Always liked it. I have a very good memory of a buddy (footed shaft) shooting a 80 lb Mach 6 from the "horse" (barrel) and he couldn't draw his bow. He had to use mine...hehehe. I have several pins from the old Canoe shoot. Man I loved that shoot... Not the best for form but still a blast... Do they still have it?


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## ace7038 (May 27, 2007)

I have just read every post in this thread. 

I will tell you my experience.

I have been shooting my compound bow for almost 3 years, still have my recurve from high school competitions (20 years or so ago....).
I drove past the Kent County Bowhunters, saw the sign, searched them on the internet, sent them a email. No response...maybe it didn't go through...sent another one, included my name, email address, phone number...no one called me. I found out who was the president, called their house and left a detailed message 'am interested in shooting, new to archery, would like to know what kind of shoot/range you have/open membership/closed club what have you. No one called me back (it was a local call for me...no long distance charges).
I got a fellow who pm'ed me here on AT wanting me to come out and shoot with the, offered to let me shoot with him and his friends. If I knew he was in the electorate of the club I would go for sure (I may yet someday).

Now for my thought on my position, never been to a 3-d shoot of any kind. Haven't competed with my bow in a long time (did shoot a couple deer with it in last year or more). I carry binoculars with me every day around the farm, I find them very useful, some days they save me walking a lot. I am going to a place I have never shot before, never shot seen these targets up close or far away before, and I can't use binoculars? I am shooting something that can kill and am not going to know exactly where to put the projectile? 

I am definitely going to shoot somewhere else, they make it clear they don't want new archers there.
I am a member of a gun club and have been for many years. All new shooters are welcome and given any assistance they ask for. A lot of older fellas there too, but they always welcome new. If you think I am an old boy look in my profile.

Just my$.02 from an outsider from the archery 'crowd' so to speak. I wish no ill will to the Kent County Bowhunters either.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

ace7038 said:


> I have just read every post in this thread.
> 
> I will tell you my experience.
> 
> ...



Yep sounds like the same old place to me. After reading what has been written by club members and others it seem that nothing has really changed.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Yep Matty, the less things change the more they never seem the same....


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## Canjapan2003 (Jun 3, 2006)

ZarkSniper said:


> There are a few clubs that don't allow it, that's their choice, but mine will be to *NOT *attend...Kent County being the #1 club I will NEVER go to again. You'll be linched if you walk in there with a target bow...


They have a RULE against target colour bows?


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2008)

many year ago the land owner which is the one enforcing these rule was the one that told a few of us that "this a hunting club and that ain't a hunting bow we don't need your kind here so leave" so we left and never returned. I never agrued with him over it, he was the land owner and can do what ever he wants. I am pretty sure that has changed now but the bino rule is still in effect, kinda funny an intrical part of bowhunting isn't allowed at a bowhunting club.


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## dh1 (Dec 16, 2004)

ACE7038 you are still more than welcome to come shoot with me and my friends even if not at Kent County. As much as everyone hates this club the last shoot I went to they had more people than most of the club shoots I've been to this year. I'll still go once in awhile to shoot cause no matter where I'm at I'm still having fun. It's also kind of in the middle for me and my friends!


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