# Time limit on field/hunter rounds



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

The question is whether we need to write something into the constitution on a time limit and shoooting group preferences or has there been enough hell raised about aggressive enforcement of four across that " Lesson Learned" will suffice.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Unless you are going to hang a clock on each target....you don't need a tine limit...

Heck there is one in 3D and nobody follows it anyway...you have to have someone to enforce it :wink:

If cards need to be in by 4 then don't take cards turned in after 4


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> Unless you are going to hang a clock on each target....you don't need a tine limit...
> 
> Heck there is one in 3D and nobody follows it anyway...you have to have someone to enforce it :wink:
> 
> If cards need to be in by 4 then don't take cards turned in after 4


Yeah...Simple as that...I agree


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

Is "Four Across" the rule for all targets or just the fans?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

4 across isn't even a rule for the fans or the walk ups :wink:


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

I wonder how they shot in the old days before compounds,1500 shooters,recurves,arrows missing the target,looking for arrows,shooting 2x2?
How did they handle all these archers? were score cards all in by 3pm?


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

Also been thinking if We have a huge turnout in the future,say 1000 shooters and to give them all target assignments you had to have 6 on a target
(Rules state not less than 3 nor more than 6 on a target) Then shooting 3 and 3 is a must meaning that we would be shooting like years past.Wonder how we would deal with this?


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

I agree that if the scores have to be turned in by a certain time then that is the only time limit we need....We wait all year to attend Outdoor Nationals and some of us will not be rushed!! I for one find that after my Brain Tumor removal I do not move as fast as I used to...I dont score as fast as I use to...cant pull and lube my arrows as fast anymore...dont walk as fast as I use to and do'nt shoot as fast as I use to....but It seems the groups I was shooting in all week were always waiting on the groups in front of us...so be it...I dont mind the wait..........................


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I wrote this thread at darned near two in the morning and didn't exactly get the point I was trying to make across very well. I hate it when I sound like a dumb ass....


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

If we shoot 5 or 6 in a group......who's arrows get worked on the short target? On the bunny, 15, 20, 25, 30 there are only 4 targets. Someone is gonna get stuff wrecked and someone is going to have kiss outs :noidea:


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

ok...throw equipment failure into the equation.


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

I'll bite. What is the point?


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

archer breaks a string.
string is in car
~10min trip to car
~5mins to change string
~10mins to check string and marks on practice bale
~10mins back to target.....original group moved on.

shooter with equipment failure is 10mins past cut-off. original group has cards in a half hour earlier......what do you do as an official?


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Unclegus said:


> The question is whether we need to *write something into the constitution* on a time limit and shoooting group preferences or has there been enough hell raised about aggressive enforcement of four across that " Lesson Learned" will suffice.


NOTHING else should be written into the constitution. Since I joined the NFAA approx 1 year ago, the one thing that seemed totally "screwed up" was that every time the slightest change was made to anything, it meant an amendment to the Constitution/By-Laws. 

A "Constitution" should be a "static" document that, in general, provides the nature and purpose of the organization. The By-Laws should also be a somewhat static document that details how the organization will be run.

"Rules of the game(s)" should NOT be a part of either the Constitution nor By-Laws. And it seems that I am not the only one that feels that way.

The following is quoted from the Feb. 2009 NFAA Council meeting. 

<quote>
Yankton attorney Dave Hosmer joined the meeting and discussed the differences between Articles of
Incorporation and the Constitution & By Laws. Over the years, everything has been placed into one document
which is not the standard for corporations. The Articles of Inc. need to be simplified and made a separate
document from the Constitution, and the shooting rules should be broken out into a basic company policy.
Attorney Hosmer suggested that the By-Laws should be rephrased to reflect how the corporation is structured.
The changes would affect only the terminology, not the actual structure of the corporation.
</quote>

Wonder how this Council meeting item is progressing????


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## webb babcock (Jul 6, 2004)

Honet, on the bunny backstops you could put up 6 rows of 4 vertical targets instead of 4 rows that should work for this particular backstop. [24 targets instead of 16]--webb babcock


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

pragmatic_lee said:


> NOTHING else should be written into the constitution. Since I joined the NFAA approx 1 year ago, the one thing that seemed totally "screwed up" was that every time the slightest change was made to anything, it meant an amendment to the Constitution/By-Laws.
> 
> A "Constitution" should be a "static" document that, in general, provides the nature and purpose of the organization. The By-Laws should also be a somewhat static document that details how the organization will be run.
> 
> ...


UUUUUHHHHHH what he said?


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

Think of it as being a club who's constitution and by-laws are one in the same. The rules for a club run league are also part of that document. In order to get any changes made to a round, it must be done at boardroom/officer level.

Imagine a business that is run the same way. Zero flexibilty and even less ability to react to changes.

What the lawyer is saying is that the NFAA needs to separate operations document from management document.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

webb babcock said:


> Honet, on the bunny backstops you could put up 6 rows of 4 vertical targets instead of 4 rows that should work for this particular backstop. [24 targets instead of 16]--webb babcock


That would work in theory....but I haven't run across many if any back stops that would allow 6 rows on a bunny...and that still leaves the 15-30...


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## webb babcock (Jul 6, 2004)

Honet, you are correct. my answer wasen't well thought out. I have shoot several nfaa tounments with 5 in a group. What we did on the bunny & 15 thru 30yd targets was let 3 people shoot & go score & pull & walk back to the shooting line Then with 3 fresh targets the other 2 shooters would shoot, score & pull then all 5 went to the next target and started again. It takes a lot longer to do it this way & will probably add a hour to 28 target shooting time--webb babcock


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

barebowstixx said:


> I wonder how they shot in the old days before compounds,1500 shooters,recurves,arrows missing the target,looking for arrows,shooting 2x2?
> How did they handle all these archers? were score cards all in by 3pm?


It was not uncommon when I first started shooting to shoot 56 targets a day....that's right...56 targets, 224 arrows in ONE day. We normally started at 9AM shot 28 targets, had a short lunch and then shot the other 28 targets and were off the ranges between 3 and 4PM and outta there by 4:30PM or so, with awards all handed out.
We shot with recurve bows (no such thing as 70% letoff, haha). We could use binoculars, but after some abusers brought out their spotting scopes and tripods...the used of tripods and spotting scopes were disallowed and still aren't permitted to this very day. Of course, the target scoring was easier...5-3 scoring, but the overall diameter of the target face was SMALLER...but the 5-ring was way bigger and the "aiming dot" was quite small.

It is only recently that people have been abusing things and literally taking all day to shoot their 28 targets. I remember during the Nationals and many of the Sectional shoots that I participated in that they didn't say the words 'Time limit'....BUT....simply told us that the scorecards had to be in NLT 3PM and that if you turned them in after 3PM....too bad...they wouldn't be accepted. Strange...EVERYONE complied, too, because they knew that the tournament committee had the cajunas to follow thru on that issue.

There wasn't a need for a 3 let-down rule, no need for a time clock for each target...you knew up front when the score-cards were due to be turned in, and you met that time. Plain and simple. We would shoot 4 across when the lane widths and overhead clearances permitted, or if we were "falling behind schedule". We always shot 4 across on the fans and the bunny targets.

If weather became a problem and they called you off the course, then of course the time was also adjusted for that.

I remember shooting two Great Lakes Sectional tournaments where the range was double butted and we had 8 shooters in each group. We STILL easily completed our 28 targets in under 5 hours . 

IMHO, 5 hours is AMPLE TIME for completion of 28 targets on a field and/or hunter round, and 6 hours or longer is ridiculous and is not needed.

field14


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Five hours/28 targets....Less than eleven minutes per target. I guess I'm just getting old, but I prefer not to wear track shoes on the range and I'd like to stop for a few minutes at the designated coolers on the range and eat a sandwich and get something to drink.... Hope THAT doesn't offend the people who feel it's their duty to shoot four and run to the next target. Cards in by three: Only exception is a verified equipment failure. Shoot two across if the group decides or as many as you can stand or can't stand as long as you don't hold anyone up...If you want to turn your cards in before 1:00 that's fine with me, but don't expect me to. I enjoy being out there too much....Guess father time and two heart attacks has made me look at things a little differently.


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

Unclegus said:


> Five hours/28 targets....Less than eleven minutes per target. I guess I'm just getting old, but I prefer not to wear track shoes on the range and I'd like to stop for a few minutes at the designated coolers on the range and eat a sandwich and get something to drink.... Hope THAT doesn't offend the people who feel it's their duty to shoot four and run to the next target. Cards in by three: Only exception is a verified equipment failure. Shoot two across if the group decides or as many as you can stand or can't stand as long as you don't hold anyone up...If you want to turn your cards in before 1:00 that's fine with me, but don't expect me to. I enjoy being out there too much....Guess father time and two heart attacks has made me look at things a little differently.


I'm with you on this one...I too wanted to stop for a drink,sandwich,but The others in my group were walked right past the coolers.We had our cards in by 1:00...sat around club house for an hour or so,for me I would have liked to have taken more time to shoot.I have waited all year for this event and I felt rushed all week.Thanks to Meckanicsburg and all they have done.Thanks to Phil and the whole gang for their hard work,a great venue for Nationals....


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

barebowstixx said:


> I'm with you on this one...I too wanted to stop for a drink,sandwich,but The others in my group were walked right past the coolers.We had our cards in by 1:00...sat around club house for an hour or so,for me I would have liked to have taken more time to shoot.I have waited all year for this event and I felt rushed all week.Thanks to Meckanicsburg and all they have done.Thanks to Phil and the whole gang for their hard work,a great venue for Nationals....


 These are probably the same guys I see everyday who run sixty miles an hour in town to get to the next stop light kinda Like Lemmings going headlong over the cliff...


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Unclegus said:


> Five hours/28 targets....Less than eleven minutes per target. I guess I'm just getting old, but I prefer not to wear track shoes on the range and I'd like to stop for a few minutes at the designated coolers on the range and eat a sandwich and get something to drink.... Hope THAT doesn't offend the people who feel it's their duty to shoot four and run to the next target. Cards in by three: Only exception is a verified equipment failure. Shoot two across if the group decides or as many as you can stand or can't stand as long as you don't hold anyone up...If you want to turn your cards in before 1:00 that's fine with me, but don't expect me to. I enjoy being out there too much....Guess father time and two heart attacks has made me look at things a little differently.



You're not getting old... I shot the whole week wearing a brace on my knee... and ended up with a problem with my other foot at Cajun night... My groups were outstanding all days. I can't walk fast & have a bit of difficulty walking down hills & over uneven terrain. I will say the last couple of groups I shot with were pretty protective of me... :wink: 

There's no hurry... at least for us there wasn't most days... we had plenty of time for a break for water, juice, and a snack at the coolers... and still turned our cards in with plenty of time to spare...


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> If we shoot 5 or 6 in a group......who's arrows get worked on the short target? On the bunny, 15, 20, 25, 30 there are only 4 targets. Someone is gonna get stuff wrecked and someone is going to have kiss outs :noidea:




No ones arrows get wrecked
rule says that every one gets to shoot at a face that has no arrows in it.
score & pull then the others shoot


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