# how much practice for instinctive archery



## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Hey there guys for the past few months ive been practicing every day for a good while and i can feel physical and mental attributes improving such as my shoulders and back muscles have strengthened and i no longer feel sore,getting clean releases and so on but..I still cant get a good grouping consistantly for my life.Im only shooting about 10 meters and yeah i might get about 3 arrows within a 6 inch diameter every now and again but its not consistant the next few arrows i might miss my target all together and it feels a bit frustrating since i'm at such a close range.I know its not my equipment and I think I have a relatively consistant form but im not seeing any results from my arrows.I suppose what i wanted to ask is is this normal for instinctive archery if ive been practicing this same range for a month and just with more practice i'll get there or two every day or am i just really bad at this?I woulden't feel so bad if it where 20 meters but whenever i stop focusing on my target and look around me it just feels so close to be missing.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Don't take this the wrong way please....but I've seen people shooting instinctive for 10 years and are really no better shot today than they were 8 years ago...the issue IF you're wanting better accuracy is with instinctive shooting you don't have a way to check yourself with each and every shot.

If you want your accuracy to get better then you're going to have to learn some type of a method like gapping or pick a point.

I tried instinctive shooting for 5 years and gave up 3 different times because I couldnt achieve the level of accuracy I wanted.



Dewayne


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

I can't tell you. I know I don't have patience for it. I have site pins and I am working on tightening my groups every day. Some days are better than others but I still have a long way to go to get the consistency I want. I am a mile wide with bare bow, I have a 28# one of those I am also shooting, it is tough for me.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

vabowdog said:


> Don't take this the wrong way please....but I've seen people shooting instinctive for 10 years and are really no better shot today than they were 8 years ago...the issue IF you're wanting better accuracy is with instinctive shooting you don't have a way to check yourself with each and every shot.
> 
> If you want your accuracy to get better then you're going to have to learn some type of a method like gapping or pick a point.
> 
> ...


I just thought i forgot to include im not doing the instinctive archery where you have no anchor point or consistant follow trough or anything i do really its the intuitive kind if i didn't make that clear or if that affects anything.Also id like to know your opinion about some of the instinctive or intuitive archers on the internet like youtube. I know they have all mostly been training for 15+ years but some of them seem to be able to consistantly shoot a very tight grouping from even 30-50 meters which is what i hope to do after years and years of training.If you can't increase your accuracy much with instinctive shooting how did they manage to get where they are?Thanks


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

MoSportsman said:


> I can't tell you. I know I don't have patience for it. I have site pins and I am working on tightening my groups every day. Some days are better than others but I still have a long way to go to get the consistency I want. I am a mile wide with bare bow, I have a 28# one of those I am also shooting, it is tough for me.


well im glad im not the only person that finds it tough hope things go well for you too.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

even with instinctive shooting you must have a consistent anchor point and draw and follow through if you want to hit the middle


flowarcher said:


> I just thought i forgot to include im not doing the instinctive archery where you have no anchor point or consistant follow trough or anything i do really its the intuitive kind if i didn't make that clear or if that affects anything.Also id like to know your opinion about some of the instinctive or intuitive archers on the internet like youtube. I know they have all mostly been training for 15+ years but some of them seem to be able to consistantly shoot a very tight grouping from even 30-50 meters which is what i hope to do after years and years of training.If you can't increase your accuracy much with instinctive shooting how did they manage to get where they are?Thanks


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

2413gary said:


> even with instinctive shooting you must have a consistent anchor point and draw and follow through if you want to hit the middle


I know this and thats what i do i was saying i know there are some people who dont and think that you can get accurate without anchor points etc. I was clarifiying that im not one of those people


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Flowarcher,

I personally put zero stock in what I see in most shooting videos on YouTube. With a camcorder, basic editing software and an internet connection, anyone can make themselve look like Howard Hill.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think if you're a natural at Instinctive shooting you get to a good level fairly fast, that is if your form is solid to start with (it took me 6 weeks), you have to figure out if it's a Form issue or aiming that is not working for you. It could also be a Focus issue as Instinct focus is more intense the trade off being Form can suffer from this required extra focus, it's difficult to identify unless you have someone experienced to watch you shoot. 

The hard work with Instinct is that it's high maintenance in it need constant upkeep to maintain that subconscious link with the mental imprint of the arrow trajectory for each distance. I practiced daily for at least an hour, I think Form was the key for my success because I only had 10y in my back yard and yet I was good out to 50 yards, our tourneys had no limit on target distance but it was rare to got more than 2-3 shots past 50 yards on a 40 target course.

On Youtube a lot of people claim they are Instinctive shots when they're not, it carries a certain prestige to say your Instinctive, some believe they are by thier own definition, it's a minefield as so many points of view on what exactly is Instinct or Trad. Just take it as good shooting and look for Form tips. I've not seen any Instinctive shots shooting well on Youtube past 30y, would like to see the links.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Flowarcher,
> 
> With a camcorder, basic editing software and an internet connection, anyone can make themselve look like Howard Hill.


I cant, I'm not tall enough, neither do I have enough hair to pass for a Howard lookalike :wink:

I've seen Howard clips that have obviously been edited, arrows appeared in the ground, fletchings changed colour from release to hitting the target.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

steve morley said:


> I think if you're a natural at Instinctive shooting you get to a good level fairly fast, that is if your form is solid to start with (it took me 6 weeks), you have to figure out if it's a Form issue or aiming that is not working for you. It could also be a Focus issue as Instinct focus is more intense the trade off being Form can suffer from this required extra focus, it's difficult to identify unless you have someone experienced to watch you shoot.
> 
> The hard work with Instinct is that it's high maintenance in it need constant upkeep to maintain that subconscious link with the mental imprint of the arrow trajectory for each distance. I practiced daily for at least an hour, I think Form was the key for my success because I only had 10y in my back yard and yet I was good out to 50 yards, our tourneys had no limit on target distance but it was rare to got more than 2-3 shots past 50 yards on a 40 target course.
> 
> On Youtube a lot of people claim they are Instinctive shots when they're not, it carries a certain prestige to say your Instinctive, some believe they are by thier own definition, it's a minefield as so many points of view on what exactly is Instinct or Trad. Just take it as good shooting and look for Form tips. I've not seen any Instinctive shots shooting well on Youtube past 30y, would like to see the links.


Well my form seems good a bit of work can definetly be done to my follow trough but other than that it feels ok. As for focus im generally good for focus outside of archery so I think focusing isn't a big problem perhaps its because im constantly thinking about working on my follow trough i might not be as focused as i should be other then that i cannot locate much of a problem.Seems small but could something like that be whats keeping me down?

forgot to ask,how long would getting to a good level fairly fast be roughly?


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

First of all, I would recommend you stop shooting for groups. The only time I will shoot more than one arrow during practice is to check form. Try shooting just one arrow for awhile and see if there is an improvement. Even with one arrow, you see where the problems are, if you know what you are looking at. Good luck. Speck


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Speck1 said:


> First of all, I would recommend you stop shooting for groups. The only time I will shoot more than one arrow during practice is to check form. Try shooting just one arrow for awhile and see if there is an improvement. Even with one arrow, you see where the problems are, if you know what you are looking at. Good luck. Speck


ok ill give that a shot (ba dum tss)
although wouldent be kinda time consuming?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Speck1 said:


> First of all, I would recommend you stop shooting for groups. The only time I will shoot more than one arrow during practice is to check form. Try shooting just one arrow for awhile and see if there is an improvement. Even with one arrow, you see where the problems are, if you know what you are looking at. Good luck. Speck


Never really thought about it much (which I have a tendency to do these days! LOL) but Speck makes a great point here in not shooting for groups...as shooting for groups is probably best left for the bench rest rifle and sighted bow crowds...where most of the good instinctive shots I grew to admire were into "Roving" (shooting from all different distances and positions)...to better ingrain the arch of their arrow/rig from a variety of distances.

and it might be noted that we are few in numbers here.....as most would advise you aim another way.

Welcome and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## SoCalArcher (May 22, 2009)

I shoot for an hour, four days a week.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

If you are still pretty scattered at 10 yards or closer, it's going to be form related, as even if aim was off, a relative group should be forming somewhere on the target. But, not always, so and easy test is to tape a matchstick or something to the riser and use as a makeshift sight. If things change for the better, you have refined your aim and found part of the problem. If things stay about the same, you just need to work on form some more.


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

I saw an interview with Fred Bear and he was an instinctive shooter where he said he could not compete on a field tournament because the level of concentration on each shot was to much to maintain through a full competition. So maybe fewer shots with greater concentration.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

flowarcher said:


> ok ill give that a shot (ba dum tss)
> although wouldent be kinda time consuming?


No, not if it helps. When you shoot groups, it's easy to forget the bad shots on only focus on the arrows that are the closest to what you are trying to hit. With one arrow, total focus on that shot, because that's all you get. A little more walking never hurt anyone. Groups have their place, but with instinctive, that place is way down the list, IMO. Speck


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> ok ill give that a shot (ba dum tss)
> although wouldent be kinda time consuming?



If time consuming is an issue, just forget it right now. It takes time, lots of it and there's definitely no free lunch. Either you have the desire to hit what you are looking at or not. That of course means within reason. Fifty yards is something only the best can do but fifteen to thirty is fairly easy to do. 
Now, about focus. Steve Morley mentioned it but didn't elaborate. There's focus and then there's FOCUS. You actually have to train your eyes to totally focus on what you want to hit. Then there's the burning desire to make it happen. Those two require some thought about your goals. But, just because you are staring at a spot intently doesn't mean you are truly focused on hitting that spot with an arrow. That's where the desire part comes in. I will give an example. My eight year old grandson was shooting with me recently and not having his best day until he spotted a spider on the target. He pointed it out to me and asked if I thought he could hit the spider. Of course I said no, no way you can kill that spider. If you had seen the difference in the shooting after that you would understand the process much better. At that point he had a mission and something to focus on. Now he was really focused with eyes and desire, a mission. You just can't do that while you're worried about form issues. If your form is pretty good then just forget about it an put your mind on killing the spider. 
There is a guy on youtube that you might gain some insight from. Greyarcher, he explains a lot of instinctive shooting rather well. He also goes into equipment issues and that could be some of the problem you are having.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Speck1 said:


> No, not if it helps. When you shoot groups, it's easy to forget the bad shots on only focus on the arrows that are the closest to what you are trying to hit. With one arrow, total focus on that shot, because that's all you get. A little more walking never hurt anyone. Groups have their place, but with instinctive, that place is way down the list, IMO. Speck



Absolutely!

Some more internet homework for you. Look up Barry Wensel and read his story about the mountain lion attack. Had he taken time to think about his form or anything else he might not be with us now. He had ONE chance to get it right, no time to think about aiming. ONE opportunity that lasted about two seconds, one arrow that had to be right the first time.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

yes lots of dedicated time is important if you want to become a decent recurve or longbow archer.., i still love shooting my compound bow and crossbow so im kind of slowing my process of becoming a pure stickbow archer, after this season i will probably sell my compound and crossbow to completely focus on one weapon, because thats what it takes to become a really good traditional archer, thats my 2 cents at least


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Sanford said:


> If you are still pretty scattered at 10 yards or closer, it's going to be form related, as even if aim was off, a relative group should be forming somewhere on the target. But, not always, so and easy test is to tape a matchstick or something to the riser and use as a makeshift sight. If things change for the better, you have refined your aim and found part of the problem. If things stay about the same, you just need to work on form some more.


A good way to check of you are having a aiming issue our form issue.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

I have been practicing instinctive shooting for almost two years. I am not especially good either.

But there does seem to be two basic parts to it.

First, you have to be very consistent. You have to shoot the bow exactly the same every time. Your form has to be repeatable. Here I disagree wit others. I think you need to shoot groups. To tell if you are consistent, it doesn't really matter where the arrow goes so long as it goes where the last one went. After about 6 months I started to shoot robin hoods at 10 yards. Disgustingly, none of them happened in the center of the target but I was missing very consistently. You need to find a good anchor, good body position, good release and at ten yards you should be able to stack arrows. 

The second part of this technique is based on the idea that if you look at something, and ten point at it, you will be pointing directly at it. Gunslingers in the old west used this. But honestly, it is easier with bullets. They have almost no drop. Arrows have a lot of drop so you need to train your brain to not point at an object, but above it. Then it gets harder because you have to judge the distance and adjust the point of your bow hand to accommodate the drop at that distance. Some people are very good with this hand to eye coordination, the rest use sights. 

Two years into this, at ten yards I have about a 4 inch group, usually above the center. At 20 yards I have about a 12 inch group, most of the arrows inside of 8 inches. At 25 or 30 yards I have about a 16 inch group. I don't know why that is about the same. When I do walk back shooting, I am always all over the map. This tells me that my range estimation is terrible and my brain pointer not so good either. I do have no interest in sights, gapping, or any other mechanical aiming technique. If I need to actually hit something I will use the rifle with the optics.

So, for me I am prepared for this to be a long journey, like you I practice daily, and given my poor coordination I know I will never be great. Hopefully you are better equipped to master this but even then, think in years, not months or weeks.

Good luck.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Nekekal said:


> I have been practicing instinctive shooting for almost two years. I am not especially good either.
> 
> But there does seem to be two basic parts to it.
> 
> ...


Great post and a realistic out look. 

Flowarcher I would suggest that if you are having grouping issues at 10 meters (with any aiming system) you have form issues.

Is it possible to get some lessons?? They could shorten your learning curve a ton. 

Matt


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

I'd say keep at it, look things up on here, theres moebow's u tube, jimmy blackman, I'm not great, but learning different things has improved my shooting , the right grip, everytime, same anchor exactly, , I draw,get a good anchor, and have this relaxed feeling, like a let off almost, and pull with back keeping focused on target till arrow hits, hard to explain, but it gets better, some days, are better than others, but they are all better than my first days, keep it up, and good luck


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Nekekal said:


> I have been practicing instinctive shooting for almost two years. I am not especially good either.
> 
> But there does seem to be two basic parts to it.
> 
> ...


Well then there's "THAT" too!...and great post Nekekal!

So I guess it may sound like I'm back-tracking on what I posted above but I'm not...because as Nekekal just pointed out...yes....you do need....

Group Shooting Practice: as a way of monitoring and polishing the physical form aspects.

as well as...

Roving: as a way of developing your minds eye for envisioning arrow flight. (if instinctive aiming is what you wish to do)

What's it all mean?...this...you need to shoot a lot and often to become a good instinctive shooter and even the best will never become as consistently accurate as a well practiced "conscious gap" type shooter at distances greater than 30yds or so.

So why would anyone choose to shoot this way?...because it can be extremely fast (especially when coupled with a snap-shooting style of form) and with enough practice?...plenty accurate enough for many at distances of 30yds and less...also?...some find it fun, relaxing and enjoyable.

I've dedicated myself to it as I just enjoy it so much and find it far more relaxing as opposed to other forms and aiming methods....I think many of my friends here probably believe I'm short-changing myself by doing so and they may be right but...I do dabble with form/gap shooting on occasion when the mood strikes....meanwhile here's what a little practice can get you with instinctive snap-shooting...hope you enjoy and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Totally misunderstood sorry


flowarcher said:


> I know this and thats what i do i was saying i know there are some people who dont and think that you can get accurate without anchor points etc. I was clarifiying that im not one of those people


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

You mentioned followthrough, the issues I had with mine was the more I thought about it the harder it was to get right, I gave up and thought about a balanced hold while aiming and just increased tension front/back end and the followthrough became more natural with no conscious thought. 

You can imprint the followthrough (i.e find that conclusion point) with an exercise stretch band, it's light weight and as no aiming is involved you can focus on things like followthrough and release, you want to build an automated shot sequence so when you're aiming intensely, pretty much everything else is automated.

My practice target is a small white dot on a huge black target (which I move around often), this helps me learn to focus on just a small spot.









out to 50y


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

Instinctive is much different than shooting a recurve. Number 1 advice I can give you. Don't shoot any other bow. Don't even draw anybodys bow. When you do, your changing the calibration your mind has stored. In order to shoot different distances, instinctive, you must clear out the unwanted variables. If your releasing as soon as you hit anchor, you have to aim on the pull. I say aim, but I mean focus on the spot. I like Ricks style of hold a momment. I think it is better. You will not shoot good groups if your trying new things, such as anchor heights, arrows, etc. Not shooting well causes us to try new things, looking for a better way. Find what feels best, natural and stick with it. I loved shooting instinctive. Something magical about shooting where your looking. I considered myself a very good instinctive shooter. They just went where I looked... but occasionally, I had a wild one on the 3d range. I could not stand that inconsistent arrow. I hated the thoughts of a miss. So I have caved to the desire to win, having given up my own rules of not trying anything new, and am now shooting different styles. If I were you, I would verify that I am anchoring the same each time. Another thing to check is your release. Unlike most, my hand stays in the exact position from which I release. The olympic style is that you pull through. I say this to mean that if you hand is leaving your face or anchor any direction other than straight back, then your plucking the string. I myself can not shoot with a deep grip. I shoot off my finger tips. Also, what pound pull are you pulling with what arrows? Good luck


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

The follow-through is the result of the force of the string suddenly disappearing. The follow-through occurs because you are pulling, maybe even expanding, at release. Your arm will go the direction you are pulling at the time that the force of the string is gone. You don't work on a follow-through, you work on how you expand at release. Many, many, many folks, manufacture follow-through's by throwing their arm back, because they think that is what they are suppose to do. I see a lot of folks (one I was watching today) who will dead hand release and then move their hand behind their head, long after the arrow is gone. A good check is that your fingers should brush along the surface of your face. You should not have your hand go out away from the face and then back.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Other than the good stuff others have mentioned, I would also consider rig tune. If your tune is wrong your groups suffer. Often when a tune improves groups get much better and penetration of the target improves.

Lately I am trying a new rest set up on one rig. I am not grouping as I have in the past. I think the side plate is to soft and makes for a unforgiving rig tune. I will soon change that rig yet again and focus on better results.

Here is some vid on form and exercises:
http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/coaching_videos.php

Here is some info on tuning:
http://veraxservice.net/arch/tune.html

Good luck.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

wseward made a great point.

An untuned bow will still shoot good arrows with perfect form but the slightest form error will send an arrow way out of the group, a really well tuned bow still keeps arrows in a respectable group even with small form errors.


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## Bytesback (Apr 8, 2013)

I have been learning trad archery for about a year now, and similar to you I am attempting to follow a more "intuitive" course. Some days are good, some days are bad, but I do see improvement from where I was when I began. My advice, put some stock in what Speck recommended. When I went through what you are going through after shooting for a few months feeling like there was no progress, I went down to shooting just one arrow at a time and going through a mental checklist before every shot where I consciously checked my stance, my form, my grip, my hook, my draw, my elbow position, and my anchor all before releasing. If you do that for awhile, you should be able to get a solid repeatable form down that happens subconsciously when you go to shoot. I know it made a world of difference in both my form(I wasn't utilizing my back muscles) and my release(shallow hook, plucking string).


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Matt_Potter said:


> Great post and a realistic out look.
> 
> Flowarcher I would suggest that if you are having grouping issues at 10 meters (with any aiming system) you have form issues.
> 
> ...


Nope can't live in a rural town in ireland which only has a population of 4 million and half of that is in dublin city no archery coaches for miles.Only archery shop around here which is 50 miles away aren't that good at all they dont even know what an arrow spine is.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

wseward said:


> Other than the good stuff others have mentioned, I would also consider rig tune. If your tune is wrong your groups suffer. Often when a tune improves groups get much better and penetration of the target improves.
> 
> Lately I am trying a new rest set up on one rig. I am not grouping as I have in the past. I think the side plate is to soft and makes for a unforgiving rig tune. I will soon change that rig yet again and focus on better results.
> 
> ...


i havent personally done bareshaft tuning but ive done the math with my draw weight draw length etc and got a fletcher to make sure my arrows where tuned and they seem to fly straight with little wind


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> The follow-through is the result of the force of the string suddenly disappearing. The follow-through occurs because you are pulling, maybe even expanding, at release. Your arm will go the direction you are pulling at the time that the force of the string is gone. You don't work on a follow-through, you work on how you expand at release. Many, many, many folks, manufacture follow-through's by throwing their arm back, because they think that is what they are suppose to do. I see a lot of folks (one I was watching today) who will dead hand release and then move their hand behind their head, long after the arrow is gone. A good check is that your fingers should brush along the surface of your face. You should not have your hand go out away from the face and then back.


ok thanks very informative i always felt a bit recoil from the bow after the release but i was pulling my arm back too and my fingers where not brushing against my face this could have been a big flaw i didnt see in my form.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Bytesback said:


> I have been learning trad archery for about a year now, and similar to you I am attempting to follow a more "intuitive" course. Some days are good, some days are bad, but I do see improvement from where I was when I began. My advice, put some stock in what Speck recommended. When I went through what you are going through after shooting for a few months feeling like there was no progress, I went down to shooting just one arrow at a time and going through a mental checklist before every shot where I consciously checked my stance, my form, my grip, my hook, my draw, my elbow position, and my anchor all before releasing. If you do that for awhile, you should be able to get a solid repeatable form down that happens subconsciously when you go to shoot. I know it made a world of difference in both my form(I wasn't utilizing my back muscles) and my release(shallow hook, plucking string).


yeah im gonna try doing 1 arrow for a while and later doing some group shots too just to try and get everything in there.I had another question for you though,i think im using my back muscles because im pushing with my bow arm and pulling with my string arm with a raised elbow and kinda trying to emphasise the expansion of my chest and compression of my back muscles is this correct?When i try this without a bow in my arm i can feel my back muscles moving but with one i cant feel my back that much more my shoulders.


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## Bytesback (Apr 8, 2013)

For me I can definitely feel when I'm using my back, and towards the end of my sessions I can feel when my back muscles aren't up to task anymore. I'm sure someone will come along who can explain it better but for me my shoulder blades come together and I can feel my back muscles taking some of the weight so to speak


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> yeah im gonna try doing 1 arrow for a while and later doing some group shots too just to try and get everything in there.I had another question for you though,i think im using my back muscles because im pushing with my bow arm and pulling with my string arm with a raised elbow and kinda trying to emphasise the expansion of my chest and compression of my back muscles is this correct?When i try this without a bow in my arm i can feel my back muscles moving but with one i cant feel my back that much more my shoulders.



"Trying to emphasize ( focus ) the expansion of my chest and compression of my back muscles."

In other words, focusing on everything BUT the spot that you are shooting at. Notice I didn't say 'the spot you want to hit' because you are not allowing your brain to think about that, it's busy with too many other thoughts. If you watched Jinksters latest video, you would have seen him looking at his target for an extended period of time. While it's not necessary for him to do that, the idea is to give his brain time to soak in that the mission is to hit that cigarette pack, nothing else, total focus on the mission. For instinctive shooting you MUST put your thoughts in the right place and that's the spot you want the arrow to hit. 

You asked "is this correct?"
Well, that depends on what you really want to do. For other shooting methods it is correct. But for instinctive shooting all those other details that you are focusing on will just clog up the subconscious and render it useless. 

How did you like the story of Barry Wensel and the mountain lion?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Ok I will take a chance here. I shoot instinctive and I shoot a gap in the window Visualizing the spot I want to hit in the window above the arrow. These go hand in hand because I always focus on the spot where I want my arrow to hit and never the arrow. If you want better groups this is what I do and it works very well. First I would try to get a 40 to 45 yard point on. Then find out what your 20 yard picture looks like. This is the distance between arrow and the spot in the sight window. If you do this enough it will become automatic and your Subconscious will remember what it looks like. Then shoot instinctive not looking at the gap just the spot your subconscious will set the picture for you it's like riding a bike it just happens. Oh and shoot a boat load of arrows. When I shoot a marked yardage I Consciously estimate the gap. When I shoot unmarked I just focus on the spot I want to hit and let the the aiming just happen I don't think about the yardage. Once you learn your gaps Consciously the unmarked gets easy. You will then see how easy it is to go back and forth between the two aiming styles. 
Gary


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

flowarcher said:


> yeah im gonna try doing 1 arrow for a while and later doing some group shots too just to try and get everything in there.I had another question for you though,i think im using my back muscles because im pushing with my bow arm and pulling with my string arm with a raised elbow and kinda trying to emphasise the expansion of my chest and compression of my back muscles is this correct?When i try this without a bow in my arm i can feel my back muscles moving but with one i cant feel my back that much more my shoulders.





FORESTGUMP said:


> *But for instinctive shooting all those other details that you are focusing on will just clog up the subconscious and render it useless.*


*BINGO!* :thumbs_up

You know?...there is such a wealth of "well rounded" knowledge, skill and experience in this particular forum?...I can't help but sit here and think that anyone here who would be so brazen as to come off as a know-it-all?...is to be pitied...because their mind is already on lock-down and their learning process stopped long ago...thereby shortchanging no one but themselves...and while I find Forrest's statement above both very insightful and extremely profound?...I also feel compelled to express a thought here that may sound contradictory to what Forrest has so eloquently expressed but in my world still stands as truth and good advice....as follows....

flowarcher....it seems to me (after much deep thought inspired by the words of others here) that you are putting the cart before the horse so to speak...and it is my firm belief that you would be best served to commit yourself too "Form Development" *PRIOR TOO....*

dabbling at developing any sort of aiming system whatsoever....and this should be done by focusing on establishing an ingrained and consistent physical form shot sequence...and it won't happen overnight...but the first thing you need to do is decide what your primary end goal is....so you know which path to take up front in establishing such...for instance...

If your primary mission is to become a proficient bow hunter?...I'm of the firm belief that Instinctive/Snap has some serious benefits...mainly?...because it's Johnny on the spot fast with blink of an eye execution...however....while the extremely well practiced Instinctive/Snap Shooter can become a walking weapon of death at responsible hunting distances?...they will be hard pressed to best the highly disciplined Solid Form/Gap Shooter at field tournaments and/or most 3D events...but another benefit of training as a snap shooter for me is the fact that as opposed to solid form shooting?...I can masterfully handle a bow of about 25% more draw weight doing so...but everything's a trade off and decisions should be made here and up front...and decide which form best fits your specific goals...fast powerful hunter?...or deadly accurate form/gap?

But also know this...just because snap shooting happens faster?...it doesn't mean that "sloppy is okay"....it's not...because all that "fast"?...also needs to be consistent, smooth and repeatable....cause if it's not...you will struggle big time when it comes time to begin developing your instinctive minds eye or envisioning arrow flight, arch, trajectory where the mastering of the instinctive aiming process will become an agonizingly slow process if in fact it develops at all...and I believe this is right where many fall short....have a bad experience with it...then give up and write it off as BS and move on to a more disciplined form and type of aiming and as a result actually become a far more consistently accurate archer...I still believe many of us are wired differently...and I've seen archers who either excel at one style yet fail miserably with the other and a 3rd type that seems completely comfortable, relaxed and successful with either...but before you choose to pursue any particular aiming system?... 

Find out which style of form suits you best...mentally....physically...and in achieving your archery goals. 

That would be my avice and good luck deciding and remember this...if it's not fun and enjoyable?...you're doing it wrong. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

For archery... it's more quality practice than quantity.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shooting at a 5 spot target at 12 yards really helped me improve my accuracy. When learning to shoot instinctive it is sometimes difficult to know where to point the rig. You can always trace/cut out some paper circles and tape/pin them to your target if you can not get 5 spot targets.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

wseward said:


> Shooting at a 5 spot target at 12 yards really helped me improve my accuracy. When learning to shoot instinctive it is sometimes difficult to know where to point the rig. You can always trace/cut out some paper circles and tape/pin them to your target if you can not get 5 spot targets.


Great practice... especially for those with limited shooting distance. When you start to see your scores go up it's a great feeling too.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

steve morley said:


> You mentioned followthrough, the issues I had with mine was the more I thought about it the harder it was to get right, I gave up and thought about a balanced hold while aiming and just increased tension front/back end and the followthrough became more natural with no conscious thought.
> 
> You can imprint the followthrough (i.e find that conclusion point) with an exercise stretch band, it's light weight and as no aiming is involved you can focus on things like followthrough and release, you want to build an automated shot sequence so when you're aiming intensely, pretty much everything else is automated.
> 
> ...


nice shooting, and by the way what bow is that?


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## Hex (Feb 21, 2014)

steve morley said:


> ...I've not seen any Instinctive shots shooting well on Youtube past 30y, would like to see the links.


If you get a chance check out all of Wolfie Archer's vids, very helpful and he leaves you with the confidence that it can be done by you...


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## Hex (Feb 21, 2014)

I shot much tighter groups off one knee. I can feel each shock force all the way from the bow through the knee to the ground. It's a smaller frame line, solid knee anchor, try it and see.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Ok I will take a chance here. I shoot instinctive and I shoot a gap in the window Visualizing the spot I want to hit in the window above the arrow. These go hand in hand because I always focus on the spot where I want my arrow to hit and never the arrow. If you want better groups this is what I do and it works very well. First I would try to get a 40 to 45 yard point on. Then find out what your 20 yard picture looks like. This is the distance between arrow and the spot in the sight window. If you do this enough it will become automatic and your Subconscious will remember what it looks like. Then shoot instinctive not looking at the gap just the spot your subconscious will set the picture for you it's like riding a bike it just happens. Oh and shoot a boat load of arrows. When I shoot a marked yardage I Consciously estimate the gap. When I shoot unmarked I just focus on the spot I want to hit and let the the aiming just happen I don't think about the yardage. Once you learn your gaps Consciously the unmarked gets easy. You will then see how easy it is to go back and forth between the two aiming styles.
> Gary



But, you're special Gary!!!:greenwithenvy: I'm glad you posted the information here and it even helped me to understand your method better. Not that I can do it, but I would recommend the OP to give it a try.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Hex said:


> If you get a chance check out all of Wolfie Archer's vids, very helpful and he leaves you with the confidence that it can be done by you...




Excellent video, challenging someone to think outside the box. Good stuff.


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## Hex (Feb 21, 2014)

2413gary said:


> Ok I will take a chance here. I shoot instinctive and I shoot a gap in the window Visualizing the spot I want to hit in the window above the arrow. These go hand in hand because I always focus on the spot where I want my arrow to hit and never the arrow. If you want better groups this is what I do and it works very well. First I would try to get a 40 to 45 yard point on. Then find out what your 20 yard picture looks like. This is the distance between arrow and the spot in the sight window. If you do this enough it will become automatic and your Subconscious will remember what it looks like. Then shoot instinctive not looking at the gap just the spot your subconscious will set the picture for you it's like riding a bike it just happens. Oh and shoot a boat load of arrows. When I shoot a marked yardage I Consciously estimate the gap. When I shoot unmarked I just focus on the spot I want to hit and let the the aiming just happen I don't think about the yardage. Once you learn your gaps Consciously the unmarked gets easy. You will then see how easy it is to go back and forth between the two aiming styles.
> Gary


This is exactly how I've been training, and it works. Thanks for putting it in words, I stumbled upon the practice instinctively!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> But, you're special Gary!!!:greenwithenvy: I'm glad you posted the information here and it even helped me to understand your method better. Not that I can do it, but I would recommend the OP to give it a try.


Nah he's not special - he was just smart enough to marry Sandy - now she is special.


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## Live In a Park (Apr 1, 2012)

I thought that I might get pretty good shooting instinctively after 10,000 arrows. I'm at about 25,000 and now I'm thinking it might take 2-300,000 shots. Maybe a million. A whole lotta fun ahead!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It's all about the G.A.P. profile :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> "Trying to emphasize ( focus ) the expansion of my chest and compression of my back muscles."
> 
> In other words, focusing on everything BUT the spot that you are shooting at. Notice I didn't say 'the spot you want to hit' because you are not allowing your brain to think about that, it's busy with too many other thoughts. If you watched Jinksters latest video, you would have seen him looking at his target for an extended period of time. While it's not necessary for him to do that, the idea is to give his brain time to soak in that the mission is to hit that cigarette pack, nothing else, total focus on the mission. For instinctive shooting you MUST put your thoughts in the right place and that's the spot you want the arrow to hit.
> 
> ...


Sorry i didn't explain correctly I have already engrained that push pull motion in my mind when i was only practicing my form and i can now aim at a spot and not think about it, it just happens.now when I shoot i dont think about anything but that spot and keeping my release on the same plane which i know i shoulden't do but i just can't help but try and focus on not plucking the string.
On that note someone else posted about how my fingers should rub along the surface of my face after i release.If i just relax my hand and nothing else my hand is slightly propelled backwards but my fingers do not touch my face.Just to make clear I am improving my form seperatly to when I am shooting to hit a spot and thought i already had practiced my form enough for it to be second nature but it appears there are quite a few flaws in my form so ill be going back to the basics again.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> *BINGO!* :thumbs_up
> 
> You know?...there is such a wealth of "well rounded" knowledge, skill and experience in this particular forum?...I can't help but sit here and think that anyone here who would be so brazen as to come off as a know-it-all?...is to be pitied...because their mind is already on lock-down and their learning process stopped long ago...thereby shortchanging no one but themselves...and while I find Forrest's statement above both very insightful and extremely profound?...I also feel compelled to express a thought here that may sound contradictory to what Forrest has so eloquently expressed but in my world still stands as truth and good advice....as follows....
> 
> ...


Yeah man a proficient bow hunter for me,dont need mad accuracy and never gonna do field tournament just want decent enough accuracy to be able to hit a bird the size of a crow or rabbit from any range within hunting distances with practice not looking for every time bullseye shot


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Yeah man a proficient bow hunter for me,dont need mad accuracy and never gonna do field tournament just want decent enough accuracy to be able to hit a bird the size of a crow or rabbit from any range within hunting distances with practice not looking for every time bullseye shot



OK, that narrows it down considerably. I hate to say this and I know there are people who will take it the wrong way. But, to meet that goal you will have to practice those type situations and stop thinking about back muscles, stance, form in general. I believe you said before that you think your form is pretty good, so move on. 
It's been a few years but the last time I was in Ireland I saw lots of rabbits, tons of big rabbits. Perfect practice for shooting rabbits. All the other stuff is minor, you got it now go shoot rabbits.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> OK, that narrows it down considerably. I hate to say this and I know there are people who will take it the wrong way. But, to meet that goal you will have to practice those type situations and stop thinking about back muscles, stance, form in general. I believe you said before that you think your form is pretty good, so move on.
> It's been a few years but the last time I was in Ireland I saw lots of rabbits, tons of big rabbits. Perfect practice for shooting rabbits. All the other stuff is minor, you got it now go shoot rabbits.


Indeed the is many rabbits a few next to my house however i dont intent to hunt unless eat the animal and I am 16 and still live with my parents.My parents would not appreciate me bringing dead rabbits to eat.My goal was to become a good shot with a 2D target to atleast to get started so i can be a good shot and then when i move out go hunting or go hunting with some of my friends parents i would rather have a 3D target but where i live,I can't get one.I figured that practicing some target shooting would help me for hunting.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Gotcha, and that narrows it down even more.
There are some good ways to practice without actually shooting the rabbits. All practice is good, you can use a ball and shoot it while it's rolling or a bottle swinging from a string. Just be creative and invent challenging shots.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Flowarcher....if casual hunting of small game is your bag?...you got it made man and you are in for many years of shooting fun and relaxation...now realize...you can at any time pursue other more formal venues but for running rabbits and flying crows?...I don't think you can go wrong with instinctive/snap....and though it may sound a wee bit cliché?...the path to best performance is to figure out how to "Get In The Zone"...fully relaxed...where the body, bow, arrow and mind become as one. 

I just did pretty much everything I shouldn't do...rushing around to church at 1:00pm...stopped to gas up the bike and drank a sugar free rockstar energy drink...rode home...decided to hurry up and post a first shot vid before racing off to my daughters house for Easter dinner and?...in hindsight?...the results were extremely predictable...

"A Clean Miss"

where normally?...just prior to my best sessions?....I sit and meditate for awhile....clear my head of life's many issues...getting fully relaxed with not a care in the world and?...

"In The Zone"

Then it all comes together...at times in a seemingly magical way...but that's how it works for me. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> Flowarcher....if casual hunting of small game is your bag?...you got it made man and you are in for many years of shooting fun and relaxation...now realize...you can at any time pursue other more formal venues but for running rabbits and flying crows?...I don't think you can go wrong with instinctive/snap....and though it may sound a wee bit cliché?...the path to best performance is to figure out how to "Get In The Zone"...fully relaxed...where the body, bow, arrow and mind become as one.
> 
> I just did pretty much everything I shouldn't do...rushing around to church at 1:00pm...stopped to gas up the bike and drank a sugar free rockstar energy drink...rode home...decided to hurry up and post a first shot vid before racing off to my daughters house for Easter dinner and?...in hindsight?...the results were extremely predictable...
> 
> ...


Makes sense since your mind is not distracted by anything previous to your session.Will try to do that as much as possible


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Don't blame instinctive aiming. It doesn't matter how you aim if you can't hit what you're aiming at. With some good form instruction some of my pupils can put many of their arrows in a four inch group at ten yards in the first or second session. I had one fellow draw and aim then close his eyes and concentrate on his form. He put three shots in one inch at 10 yards. He and I were both shocked.

I recently coached a woman to shoot well to 50 yards with instinctive aiming in about three months.

So I suspect it is your form. Better find a good coach if you can. Otherwise better get some one to make a video of you shooting slowly and carefully and post it on here. We will try to coach you from afar. - lbg


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## Zurf (Mar 8, 2014)

Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you are practicing a lot and not improving, more than likely you have a problem with inconsistency in your form rather than in your aim. I recommend a little time with a qualified trainer or coach. Ten minutes with a person who has a skilled eye to see what you are doing wrong and help you to know what it feels like to get it right would probably do you more good than ten more hours of practicing on your own. 

If you can't get help from a coach or trainer, videotape yourself shooting ends changing the angle between ends and do your best to check for common problems in form. Shoot one from directly behind and facing the target, shoot one with the camera pointed at your chest, and if your range will permit it shoot one with the camera downrange and slightly to the side of the target. Look for your shoulders being perpendicular, consistent anchor point, bow arm elbow turned out, string elbow high, etc. All the basic form considerations. My guess is that's where you have an issue rather than with aiming.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Form in and by itself is pretty easy to master. Aiming in and by itself is pretty easy to master. It's combining the 2 and executing a good shoot that can become difficult for most.

Aiming issues can have just as much effect on accuracy as form issues will. You can't have consistent accuracy with doing just one aspect well. 

Instinctive Aiming is a harder aiming technique to master and achieve similar accuracy as with some of the other aiming techniques.

Your form is your foundation and what you build your aiming technique off of. If your form is inconsistent...it can be hard to determine exactly why you missed....especially if you're aiming Instinctively. Little variations at close distance at larger targets aren't as important...especially for an archer who's main GOAL is to bowhunt deer at fairly close distances.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

The longer I shoot the more I become convinced that aiming (however you do it) is the easy part. John Shultz (for example) stressed "form". According to him, Howard Hill did too.

Rabbits for practice...I guess it depends on the kind of rabbit and the terrain but our cottontails are normally in cover. They don't usually go off running across open ground. It's a good time to use a shotgun that can blast through some brush because there's always something in the way.

I do a fair amount of rabbit hunting with a bow in years when we have a decent population of rabbits. I spot them sitting in cover before they break. It's still hard to get a clear shot but, when I do, the shooting is easy. Most shots would be measured in feet rather than yards.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Hey guys i went out shooting this morning and i did really good for a change.I just forgot everything about my form and life in general and only thought about what was in the present(which is looking at that spot)and had a desire to hit that spot.I shot at the target and i was getting really consistant shots where i wanted them.I tried groups too and was getting groups within 3 inches.I was really relaxed and enjoying myself so i decided to shoot a bit further and did 20 meters for fun.I didn't get the same results as 10 meters but i was still really pleased shooting at 20 for the first time and getting only a few inches off to where i was aiming.I tried grouping too which was a bit more scattered but it was better than previous groups at 10!Just because i wasn't thinking about my form thought didnt mean it was out the window i just wasnt conciously thinking about how to improve it all the time.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Hey guys i went out shooting this morning and i did really good for a change.I just forgot everything about my form and life in general and only thought about what was in the present(which is looking at that spot)and had a desire to hit that spot.I shot at the target and i was getting really consistant shots where i wanted them.I tried groups too and was getting groups within 3 inches.I was really relaxed and enjoying myself so i decided to shoot a bit further and did 20 meters for fun.I didn't get the same results as 10 meters but i was still really pleased shooting at 20 for the first time and getting only a few inches off to where i was aiming.I tried grouping too which was a bit more scattered but it was better than previous groups at 10!Just because i wasn't thinking about my form thought didnt mean it was out the window i just wasnt conciously thinking about how to improve it all the time.



Good, progress has been made and you learned about the mental aspect of instinctive shooting. Remember my story about the spider? You can pretend some if there's no spider or you can make a paper rabbit. I saw one made from some kind of foam material in a video recently. The main thing is to be creative and make the targets more realistic.
Ten yards or less is the hardest for me, it's a mental block on my part because I really don't have much need for it in the real world. And besides, when you become comfortable at longer distances like thirty or even forty yards, it almost seems like you can touch the target with your arrow at ten yards.
Moving back to twenty might be a bit too much of a jump but, if it works that's fine. I would have said to go a little slower and try fifteen for a while. 
Did you ever look up the Barry Wensel stories? Very few people reach his level of shooting but it shows what is possible with instinctive shooting.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Good, progress has been made and you learned about the mental aspect of instinctive shooting. Remember my story about the spider? You can pretend some if there's no spider or you can make a paper rabbit. I saw one made from some kind of foam material in a video recently. The main thing is to be creative and make the targets more realistic.
> Ten yards or less is the hardest for me, it's a mental block on my part because I really don't have much need for it in the real world. And besides, when you become comfortable at longer distances like thirty or even forty yards, it almost seems like you can touch the target with your arrow at ten yards.
> Moving back to twenty might be a bit too much of a jump but, if it works that's fine. I would have said to go a little slower and try fifteen for a while.
> Did you ever look up the Barry Wensel stories? Very few people reach his level of shooting but it shows what is possible with instinctive shooting.


yeah i was only doing 20 yards today for fun and because i suppose i felt very confident in my ability but i will be going back to 10-15 for now.Also one thing i forgot to mention was when my brother came down to the field i shoot in he started to talk a lot and i found it a lot harder to focus and was distracted a lot.Anyone know how i can train myself to block out other sounds more?I'm not talking about ambient sounds in the backround like birds or motor vehicles but people talking I do struggle with.
As for barry I looked him up but couldent find the story about the mountain lion i only found some about a buck he shot called hurley do you have a link to the mountain lion story?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> yeah i was only doing 20 yards today for fun and because i suppose i felt very confident in my ability but i will be going back to 10-15 for now.Also one thing i forgot to mention was when my brother came down to the field i shoot in he started to talk a lot and i found it a lot harder to focus and was distracted a lot.Anyone know how i can train myself to block out other sounds more?I'm not talking about ambient sounds in the backround like birds or motor vehicles but people talking I do struggle with.
> As for barry I looked him up but couldent find the story about the mountain lion i only found some about a buck he shot called hurley do you have a link to the mountain lion story?



You are not alone in the distraction department. I'm pretty sure that most people find it hard to chit chat and focus on shooting at the same time. 
Go to Brothers of the Bow. com and on the homepage look down and to the right in yellow letters you will see 'free reading from Brothers of the Bow" click it for some great stories written by two elite bow hunting brothers. 'Read 'Pray or prey?' If the lion story doesn't inspire you to learn instinctive shooting, you can just give it up right now.:wink:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

flowarcher said:


> Hey there guys for the past few months ive been practicing every day for a good while and i can feel physical and mental attributes improving such as my shoulders and back muscles have strengthened and i no longer feel sore,getting clean releases and so on but..I still cant get a good grouping consistantly for my life.Im only shooting about 10 meters and yeah i might get about 3 arrows within a 6 inch diameter every now and again but its not consistant the next few arrows i might miss my target all together and it feels a bit frustrating since i'm at such a close range.I know its not my equipment and I think I have a relatively consistant form but im not seeing any results from my arrows.I suppose what i wanted to ask is is this normal for instinctive archery if ive been practicing this same range for a month and just with more practice i'll get there or two every day or am i just really bad at this?I woulden't feel so bad if it where 20 meters but whenever i stop focusing on my target and look around me it just feels so close to be missing.


 Practice is a lifelong endeavor of anything being done... practice and formed habits... rote if you will... you need that first to accomplish the finesse part. How I learned, and this isn't a schooling... just an example for me and my kids.... 5 yards 7, 10, 12, 15, 20, 22, 25, 27, and 30... then 5, 15, 10, 30, 5, 10... or whatever combination you make of it... and you eventually pretty much get it down for your arrow being used... that and I rove constantly.

That all said.... basics and critique are the building blocks of empirical learning which is my preferred method of understanding.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> 'Read 'Pray or prey?' If the lion story doesn't inspire you to learn instinctive shooting, you can just give it up right now.:wink:


Yep...I NEVER want to be in big woods with "just my bow" and not have the skills of being a decent instinctive/snap shooter...I once watched a show where two archer were hunting these huge Russian Boar...one had a pinned out wheelie and the other a recurve....they were on the ground and the boar where all over the place...the dude with the recurve was having a blast....in one scene a huge boar took him by surprise charging him out of nowhere and he ran....as fast as he could for a short distance...with the boar right on his tail...then suddenly?...he reached out with one hand hooking a sapling and spun feet off the ground 360 degrees as the boar blew by him and as he hit his feet?...in one fluid motion drilled that boar with a beautiful quartering away shot sending him into a leg shivering pile....heart shot...and about a 400lb'er!

Meanwhile?...the wheelie guy was crapping his pants and couldn't wait to get back to the truck! :laugh:

When that adrenalin pump kicks into high gear?...nobody is ever going to convince me that they were focusing on back tension or anchor or executing a clean release and imho?...

they'll be lucky if they capture a mental recording of the arrow flying to it's mark! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Yep...I NEVER want to be in big woods with "just my bow" and not have the skills of being a decent instinctive/snap shooter...I once watched a show where two archer were hunting these huge Russian Boar...one had a pinned out wheelie and the other a recurve....they were on the ground and the boar where all over the place...the dude with the recurve was having a blast....in one scene a huge boar took him by surprise charging him out of nowhere and he ran....as fast as he could for a short distance...with the boar right on his tail...then suddenly?...he reached out with one hand hooking a sapling and spun feet off the ground 360 degrees as the boar blew by him and as he hit his feet?...in one fluid motion drilled that boar with a beautiful quartering away shot sending him into a leg shivering pile....heart shot...and about a 400lb'er!
> 
> Meanwhile?...the wheelie guy was crapping his pants and couldn't wait to get back to the truck! :laugh:
> 
> ...


Yer a marine Jink.... :grin:... you know as well as any marine... that adrenaline shouldn't be taking over the situation at hand.... and rote takes the shot.... now that 360 was a nice touch... probably only made possible by the adrenaline.... :laugh:


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## GaryinOK (Apr 3, 2007)

For distractions might I suggest a good pair of head phones? I've been shooting instinctive for a long time, and struggled with getting a "proper group". Didn't really improve much until I discovered that terms like "proper group" and "form" and "proper release" are all terms that compound shooters need worry about. As soon as I let go of all of these archery Clichés, shooting got a whole lot easier. For my "proper draw and anchor spot", I pull the string to my face. For my "consitent release", I let go of the string. Traditional archery is simple because it's simple. Don't over think it. I also don't do a lot of "tuning" of my bow, and I can pick up almost any arrow and put it where I need to within reason. Not drilling nickles at thirty yards, but who cares. When you can let all that stuff go this gets fun. So my advice would be to put on a good set of headphones, zone out, and shoot what your looking at. It's easy.


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## marksman1122 (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm still new to the sport of archery too, but I've been shooting handguns, rifles, and shotguns for years. Archery and shooting are both basically what I would consider deginerative instinctive skills that require a lot of practice to maintain. Form is very important and we have to keep the basics always in mind. For archery specific, the things I have found that help maintain consistancy are the simple basics. Use a consistant anchor point, focus on your intended target, focus on a clean release, and I find using a second anchor point helps maintain a smooth and consistant release. I definately agree that only perfect practice makes perfect, as practicing wrong only ingrains bad habits. Spend the time practicing, and make sure you're having fun and you should slowly but surely get better. Lastly, instinctual archery, much like instinctual or point shooting with firearms, may not be for everyone. To a certain extent most people will be able to do it alright, but to be truely accurate with it is not going to be within everybody's abilities.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

I would say that it does not take months to get good at instinctive. If it does not come easy, if you have to turn it into a discipline of do this and do that, I would advise to try gapping or string walking. As much as I hate to say it, instinctive is not so much "learned" as it is a talent. Not everyone can shoot instinctive just the same as not everyone can shoot 3 pointers. Shoot what is most fun for you.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

If you could focus only on the spot you wish to hit........ but if your not grouping as well as you like, it's expected that you would start thinking about all the form aspects, etc. Problem is, that thinking about those things works directly against the instinctive archer. His focus is the intended point of impact.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

1gr8bldr said:


> Problem is, that thinking about those things works directly against the instinctive archer. His focus is the intended point of impact.


A True Instinctive archer should only focus on the target and when to draw the bow. Breaking down the shot sequence much more than that causes most Instinctive shooters to start thinking to much about the shot rather than just letting it happen.



1gr8bldr said:


> If it does not come easy, if you have to turn it into a discipline of do this and do that, I would advise to try gapping or string walking. As much as I hate to say it, instinctive is not so much "learned" as it is a talent. Not everyone can shoot instinctive just the same as not everyone can shoot 3 pointers. Shoot what is most fun for you.


:thumbs_up

This is what's great about archery. If one style or technique doesn't fit your GOALS or ABILITIES...there are other one's out there that can.

An archer doesn't automatically become superior just because they chose a harder or easier technique...what determines who the superior archer is...is the one who hits their target the most under the conditions based around their GOALS.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> A True Instinctive archer should only focus on the target and when to draw the bow. Breaking down the shot sequence much more than that causes most Instinctive shooters to start thinking to much about the shot rather than just letting it happen.
> 
> Ray :shade:



This is the reason why when at the Bale the aim is totally taken out of the equation, it allows the Archer to break down the shot and ingrain the feel into their mind so when they do aim the Form and Shot sequence is automated and very little thinking is required.

It is very difficult for a newbie to build a shot sequence while also trying to aim, if you take the aiming out for a few min whilst thinking/working on a specific part of the Form most people ingrain it much faster.

I've got my sequence down to one conscious thought "Balance" at anchor, it's a key word going through my head which allows me to be in control taking all the time I need to settle and focus on the aim, I am still always following a shot sequence to conclusion but with the Bale work I've pretty much automated 99% of it, working well both for Instinct and Gap.

Every time I pick up the bow I spend the first 5min ingraining the sequence and then when I'm happy I just forget about it, it is that simple. Some days when it's not working well I will go back to bale work for 5-10min but I don't remember that last time I needed to do that.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

LOL, what determines who the superior archer is? Well, I reckin that could be the mountain lion. If Mr. Wensel had been anywhere near halffast the story might have a different ending. Just sayin.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> This is the reason why when at the Bale the aim is totally taken out of the equation, it allows the Archer to break down the shot and ingrain the feel into their mind so when they do aim the Form and Shot sequence is automated and very little thinking is required.
> 
> It is very difficult for a newbie to build a shot sequence while also trying to aim, if you take the aiming out for a few min whilst thinking/working on a specific part of the Form most people ingrain it much faster.


EXACTLY!!! :thumbs_up



steve morley said:


> Every time I pick up the bow I spend the first 5min ingraining the sequence...


Me too :wink: but I also like to finish my practice sessions that way too.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, what determines who the superior archer is? Well, I reckin that could be the mountain lion. If Mr. Wensel had been anywhere near halffast the story might have a different ending. Just sayin.


Yep...key word I used was 'conditions' :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Hey...if I were still 16 I would not give up on instinctive shooting any time soon. I am 55, have been able to use instinctive traits in several sports successfully and it takes time to develope such skills.

Relatively new to archery, my form mistakes are the cause of most of my bad shots. If and when my form gets really good and I still can not shoot, then I will try something other than instinctive. Now I try to put lots of arrows down range in different modes. If I want to shoot well I do not think of form. I just do my best to focus on shooting well and shoot. Other days I think of form a lot while shooting and do not expect to do well, as I am working on things.

For me I shoot well when I try to focus...go for a shot that feels right and looks right...and regardless of the results...start focus on the next loose.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

Also, If you want to shoot tighter groups, don't shoot at the "group". Shoot at something the size of a bottle cap.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Went out to the field again and got some of the same results as last time did pretty well but i stayed out a bit longer today.Near the end i started missing a lot of shots and getting less consistant is mental fatigue a thing in archery because i was pretty much repeating the same process.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, what determines who the superior archer is? Well, I reckin that could be the mountain lion. If Mr. Wensel had been anywhere near halffast the story might have a different ending. Just sayin.


Hate to break it to ya but the Wensel boys use the arrow tip - one of my favorite quotes from Barry is "how can you not see the arrow, it's right in front of your face??"

They hunted my valley quite a bit when they still lived in Montana. Yeah that shot on the kitty was a reactive snap shot. But, their day to day shots on deer and elk were very deliberate.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

flowarcher said:


> Near the end i started missing a lot of shots and getting less consistant is mental fatigue a thing in archery because i was pretty much repeating the same process.


For me mental fatigue is a worse proposition than physical fatigue. If I am frustrated, over thinking one or more aspects of my shooting, or just not feeling it I will just stop shooting knowing that nothing more will come from that session. No fun, no learning, no challenge? Then it is best just to come back another day.

There have been days when I am feeling in the zone and having a good time. On those days when my muscles are tired I can push through that for quite a while and still shoot well.

Just like anything it is possible to over do it.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Looking back from what I've learned since 1996 shooting a bow...I think a person is better off in the beginning to learn as much form as he or she can apply without turning into an unhappy robotical shooter....pick a method like gap,learn it first so you can some immediate accuracy and not get discouraged and then maybe 6-12 months later once you've felt how the shot should feel,the anchor,the whole sequence then experiment with instinctive aiming.

In the beginning an archer is so new to it all it was really easy for me to get overwhelemed with all the aspects of draw,anchor,focus,burn a hole that I really couldn't diagnose which part of my shot was wrong.


Dewayne


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowzen said:


> If I am frustrated, over thinking one or more aspects of my shooting, or just not feeling it I will just stop shooting knowing that nothing more will come from that session. No fun, no learning, no challenge? Then it is best just to come back another day.
> 
> There have been days when I am feeling in the zone and having a good time. On those days when my muscles are tired I can push through that for quite a while and still shoot well.
> 
> Just like anything it is possible to over do it.


Bam!...we'll said...For me?...if it ain't fun?...it's over right then and there.

But I also understand some folks are overachieving workaholics. :laugh:

The tough part about instinctive?...you haft a shoot a lot.

The wonderful part about instinctive? ....you haft a shoot a lot.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> one of my favorite quotes from Barry is "how can you not see the arrow, it's right in front of your face??"


Just as with the term Instinctive...people need to make an effort to understand how the person is using that word...is using it.

'To see or not to see' is the question. It can mean different things to different people.

For some 'to see' means to recognize consciously. For others 'not to see' means they don't consciously recognize it.

In aiming...it basically boils down to how we use our aiming references.

Each aiming technique has a specific and different way of using our aiming reference/references...which is why each one is given a specific and DIFFERENT name.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

People...this is really a very easy concept and is based on common sense.

We are NOT all wired the same.

Some people can get overwhelmed by thinking about too many things at once whereas others need to break apart everything and analyze it.

This is what helps create...DIFFERENT...PERSONALITIES.

Some archers are going to be drawn to Instinctive Aiming while others will be drawn to String Walking for example.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Hate to break it to ya but the Wensel boys use the arrow tip - one of my favorite quotes from Barry is "how can you not see the arrow, it's right in front of your face??"
> 
> They hunted my valley quite a bit when they still lived in Montana. Yeah that shot on the kitty was a reactive snap shot. But, their day to day shots on deer and elk were very deliberate.



And you will note that I only mentioned that particular shot on the 'kitty'. I don't remember about their day to day shooting but, I will say if one can hit a running deer by guesstimating a gap and lead, they got it going on. 
What I did do yesterday evening was to test my own ten yard abilities. I don't shoot that close normally but I started wondering how I would in the situation he was in. My first shot was not as good as his but still would have been lethal for the cat. I shot about fifty more just for fun and all were good kill shots. Pretty cool, might do it again.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Flowarcher I would suggest that if you are having grouping issues at 10 meters (with any aiming system) you have form issues.
> 
> Is it possible to get some lessons?? They could shorten your learning curve a ton.
> 
> Matt


Ditto. Would be the advice I gave myself and I started, exactly the same scenario. I didn't know who the experts were, didn't know where to look for shooting form, just was told, pull index finger to the corner of the mouth, look where you want to hit, and let your hand eye coordination develop. After awhile, I started stacking arrows at 7-10 yards out of mere habit, but if I wasn't shooting pretty much every day, at variable distances, my first shots might be on, or they might be WAY off, as my coordination would need calibration, and if I hadn't shot for a few weeks, forget it. I also had problems with just plain shot execution consistency, because I had no idea about what I _wanted_ to do with executing the shot.

So, first, FORM. I would suggest, as a starter, Anthony Camera's 'Shooting the Stickbow'. You can get it at Lancaster Archery. I would also look into MoeBow and Jimmy BLackmon's videos (forgive possible spelling errors). You may have good form, or you may _think_ you have good form. I remember spending days and days blank bale shooting, thinking I was doing everything right, pulling through the shot, back expansion, everything, and then realized when I went outside that my form improvements had arrows flying all over the flippin' place.

You can also post a video here, if you haven't already, and get some useful feedback.

If you want to shoot with 'Instinctive' aiming, that's cool, though you should realize that learning other methods can be useful, if only for a learning experience, or a diagnostic tool, and you can _always_ go back to 'Instinctive' aiming simply by not trying to use another method. There is also a wide range of what people consider 'Instinctive', from non-anchoring snap shooting to 'gapstinctive' peripheral awareness of the arrow shaft without the explicit knowledge of through process of establishing gap values.

But, like many others have said, Form first. For form, shoot groups. When you've got form nailed to your satisfaction, and get fixed distances dialed in reasonably well, go to one arrow, different distances, and pay attention to the trajectory of the arrow.

Above all, keep a positive attitude on the whole process, if you can. Every bad arrow, so long as you try to learn and improve from it, is one arrow closer to the next good arrow. If it is fun, and you apply effort and knowledge, you can only get better. And, it's easier to have fun when you get better


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Went out to the field again and got some of the same results as last time did pretty well but i stayed out a bit longer today.Near the end i started missing a lot of shots and getting less consistant is mental fatigue a thing in archery because i was pretty much repeating the same process.



Mental fatigue is definitely a big factor as well as physical. If it's just not going well it's probably better to come back later. Remember, the desire is mental and directly affects the mission, if your mind is wandering your focus won't be concentrated on the combination of the two well enough for them to work together.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

flowarcher said:


> Yeah man a proficient bow hunter for me,dont need mad accuracy and never gonna do field tournament just want decent enough accuracy to be able to hit a bird the size of a crow or rabbit from any range within hunting distances with practice not looking for every time bullseye shot


My suggestion. Collect old shoes. Throw one, shoot at it until you you hit it. Throw another. Repeat. If you can't hit it in a few arrows, throw it closer. It's fun.

I'd still focus on form first. Doesn't have to look like the 'target' archers, but it does have to be repeatable and consistent.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Form in and by itself is pretty easy to master.


I wish I could say that for myself


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> And you will note that I only mentioned that particular shot on the 'kitty'. I don't remember about their day to day shooting but, I will say if one can hit a running deer by guesstimating a gap and lead, they got it going on.
> What I did do yesterday evening was to test my own ten yard abilities. I don't shoot that close normally but I started wondering how I would in the situation he was in. My first shot was not as good as his but still would have been lethal for the cat. I shot about fifty more just for fun and all were good kill shots. Pretty cool, might do it again.


At those truly short ranges is where instinctive shines. The first big field shoot i ever did was the US national champs in Spokane. I got paired with this grumpy old guy named Ben who proceeded to kick my but. I was really struggling on the short stuff 5-15 meters. His advice was "just shoot them instinctively" - I started shooting them like I was deer hunting and did much much better. 

All aiming systems have their place - one of the reasons I think people struggle with instinctive is they try and learn it before they know how to shoot a bow and they try and take it past it's realistic effective range. 

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> I wish I could say that for myself


How do feel when shooting at the Blank Bale?

Do you feel like your form is all over the place or do you feel pretty consistent?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> At those truly short ranges is where instinctive shines.
> 
> All aiming systems have their place - one of the reasons I think people struggle with instinctive is they try and learn it before they know how to shoot a bow and they try and take it past it's realistic effective range.


I agree :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> I wish I could say that for myself



That's because it's relative. I might say , "it looks good just shoot the damn thang". There are bunch of other people here who would critique it to death. Form has to fit the situation. When I was shooting my ten yard shots yesterday evening I was simulating the sudden, close up and personal encounter with a big cat. I noticed that most of the time my string hand was nowhere near a target shooter anchor. The interesting part is that those were actually the best shots. Go figure. But, if I were shooting at spots on a wall and trying to 'outscore' someone then I would do it differently. Why? Because a couple of inches one way or the other on the cat probably won't matter but, speed might be the determining factor in the outcome of the encounter. That same couple of inches would completely determine the outcome of a target shooting match. :sad:


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

If I may be so bold as to put forth an opinion on this matter. I am a new (Left Handed) archer as well. For about 1 month, I have been shooting a Samick Sage 40# with a 27.5" draw length. I had a similar problem. It turns out my arrows were too stiff. We put 145's on and raised the brace height and nock point. I got some good groups but consistently right patterns. In "Shooting the Stickbow" stated that the arrow is the most important part of your equipment. And I ignored that at first. But 400's were just too stiff. Switched to 500's and there was instant improvement. So my advice would be start at the beginning/basics.

1. Arrows - Spine, length etc.
2. Bow - Length, poundage, brace height, nocking point.
3. Form - Stance, Arm position, and Release.

I don't know much but sometimes its things we overlook. There is my 2 cents worth. Not sure it's worth 2 cents though.


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## winouspoint (Sep 2, 2013)

A few things I have learned in my two year quest to shoot instinctive, these have been mentioned by others. Arrow spine is critical and makes a world of difference. Throw away your target and stump shoot old shoes and soccer balls tossed around the yard. Work on consistency with form, I am still not there yet on this one.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> At those truly short ranges is where instinctive shines. The first big field shoot i ever did was the US national champs in Spokane. I got paired with this grumpy old guy named Ben who proceeded to kick my but. I was really struggling on the short stuff 5-15 meters. His advice was "just shoot them instinctively" - I started shooting them like I was deer hunting and did much much better.
> 
> All aiming systems have their place - one of the reasons I think people struggle with instinctive is they try and learn it before they know how to shoot a bow and they try and take it past it's realistic effective range.
> 
> Matt



My first thought was that you should look that old guy up and slip a Ben Franklin or two in his shirt pocket for such a big favor. But, all those pockets are probably so full of Ben Franklins already that there's no room for another one.

Yep, they all have their place. And that's what usually causes these threads to turn ugly. Some people just will not accept that fact.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

txbowcub said:


> If I may be so bold as to put forth an opinion on this matter. I am a new (Left Handed) archer as well. For about 1 month, I have been shooting a Samick Sage 40# with a 27.5" draw length. I had a similar problem. It turns out my arrows were too stiff. We put 145's on and raised the brace height and nock point. I got some good groups but consistently right patterns. In "Shooting the Stickbow" stated that the arrow is the most important part of your equipment. And I ignored that at first. But 400's were just too stiff. Switched to 500's and there was instant improvement. So my advice would be start at the beginning/basics.
> 
> 1. Arrows - Spine, length etc.
> 2. Bow - Length, poundage, brace height, nocking point.
> ...



Welcome to the forum and your opinions are also welcome.:welcomesign:


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Welcome to the forum and your opinions are also welcome.:welcomesign:


Thank you, glad to be here. I will be pestering you guys with questions at some point.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> How do feel when shooting at the Blank Bale?
> 
> Do you feel like your form is all over the place or do you feel pretty consistent?
> 
> Ray :shade:


I don't do it much anymore, but...

I don't think my form is any different when shooting at one thing or another, blank or not. It was more that, while the blank bale may serve to provide a shot sequence with an explicit target removed, which can be great if you're trying to ingrain something specific into your shot sequence, or working on changing a single aspect, and want to be able to execute the shot without the hit/miss feedback getting in the way, the removal of that feedback also lets you develop bad habits if you're introducing something into your form which isn't exactly what you really want to be doing.

Specifically, I misunderstood 'back tension' and 'pulling through the shot'. While I was doing a great job with developing a very visually pleasing follow through, and was certainly loading my back muscles, I was also developing a pluck and an outward bow arm flail. Now, if I had a good instructor giving me feedback, telling me what I was doing wrong, the blank bale practice would have been great. However, I did not, and as such, as soon as I took my new 'uber' form out to a target at distance, I realized that something was wrong, and that what I was trying to do wasn't what I was doing, or what I was trying to do was baloney, however you want to look at it.

My point, more so, is that a person may _think_ that their form is good, because they _believe_ that they're doing all the right things. To a casual observer, or themselves, it may look just like those guys you see doing all that impressive shooting. However, if they're all over the place, and have removed aiming from the equation, it is entirely likely that person probably doesn't have good repeatable form. That has been my personal experience anyway


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't do it much anymore, but...
> 
> I don't think my form is any different when shooting at one thing or another, blank or not. It was more that, while the blank bale may serve to provide a shot sequence with an explicit target removed, which can be great if you're trying to ingrain something specific into your shot sequence, or working on changing a single aspect, and want to be able to execute the shot without the hit/miss feedback getting in the way, the removal of that feedback also lets you develop bad habits if you're introducing something into your form which isn't exactly what you really want to be doing.
> 
> ...


Barney, good post! From my experience reading around here over the years, "Form" for some is a generic word, encompassing many individual interpretations. For others, it's a "Term of Art", having a defined set of parameters. So, in that context, some will describe their "Form" as good, but it's not form they are describing in the meaning of others. Back tension is a classic example. All the elements seem to fit, but the action doesn't verify it being so. Blank bale without feedback is pointless, I agree. If "feel" alone is the only feedback you are seeking, then everything you shoot at is a blank bale anyway.


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## Smitty1hunter (Aug 5, 2009)

I was very hesitant to post a reply to this thread because I have very limited experience shooting a trad bow but want to get back into it soon. The reason I am going to post is because I know a few guys who have given me instruction who are really good so basically I'm paraphrasing. Form can vary quite a bit from one person to another, like mentioned, consistency is def. key. My brother studied African tribes whose form looks a bit ridiculous. The stick their butt way out and crouch over quite a bit. Their bow arm is turned inward and then they turn their wrist up, this gets your forearm out the way. You wont see an Olympic archer with this form but my guess is it works really good because if they miss they don't eat! I'm also of the opinion that if I wanted to shoot a trad bow by gap shooting I wouldn't even pick it up. Yes it works and you can even make a tape to go on your bow that is mathematically correct. What's the fun in that?! If I wanted to shoot with a sight I'd just stick with my compound. I want to be Byron Ferguson, you know, be the arrow. The human brain is doing multiple things at once. When you shoot a bow you are in essence gap shooting, looking at your arrow, and aiming at your target all at the same time. Your brain has the ability to work out the most complicated shot in the blink of an eye one you have done it enough. It seems impossible except that it works. My suggestion is find a form that feels good and doesn't make you think too much. When you throw a football you're not thinking turn body, snap back wrist, follow through, you just throw the freakin' ball! You do it enough you start getting good at it. When I started playing tennis I would hit the ball against a wall at just a few feet. I would hit it where I wanted it to go and then slowly start backing up. There is no such thing as starting too close! Hit where you are aiming and start backing up. Before long it will be second nature. If that doesn't work I hear golf drives people as crazy as archery!


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Smitty1hunter said:


> I was very hesitant to post a reply to this thread because I have very limited experience shooting a trad bow but want to get back into it soon. The reason I am going to post is because I know a few guys who have given me instruction who are really good so basically I'm paraphrasing. Form can vary quite a bit from one person to another, like mentioned, consistency is def. key. My brother studied African tribes whose form looks a bit ridiculous. The stick their butt way out and crouch over quite a bit. Their bow arm is turned inward and then they turn their wrist up, this gets your forearm out the way. You wont see an Olympic archer with this form but my guess is it works really good because if they miss they don't eat! I'm also of the opinion that if I wanted to shoot a trad bow by gap shooting I wouldn't even pick it up. Yes it works and you can even make a tape to go on your bow that is mathematically correct. What's the fun in that?! If I wanted to shoot with a sight I'd just stick with my compound. I want to be Byron Ferguson, you know, be the arrow. The human brain is doing multiple things at once. When you shoot a bow you are in essence gap shooting, looking at your arrow, and aiming at your target all at the same time. Your brain has the ability to work out the most complicated shot in the blink of an eye one you have done it enough. It seems impossible except that it works. My suggestion is find a form that feels good and doesn't make you think too much. When you throw a football you're not thinking turn body, snap back wrist, follow through, you just throw the freakin' ball! You do it enough you start getting good at it. When I started playing tennis I would hit the ball against a wall at just a few feet. I would hit it where I wanted it to go and then slowly start backing up. There is no such thing as starting too close! Hit where you are aiming and start backing up. Before long it will be second nature. If that doesn't work I hear golf drives people as crazy as archery!


great post...and yes i used to play on north,east and south texas golf tours and playing golf willl drive a man crazy, but archery gives me peace, no matter how bad i miss the target i will never get frustrated, especially like golf


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't think my form is any different when shooting at one thing or another, blank or not.


Allot will depend on how in tune an archer is with their body.

The more in tune you are the more you can feel variations in your form.

The Blank Bale is great for everything you mentioned but it also gives feedback based on feel.

The next step is The Bridge so an archer can transfer what they learned at The Blank Bale to shooting at a large close target. An archer needs to spend quite a few shots at the BB to develop some motor/muscle memory before they try it out on a target.

Bottom line is consistency...no matter what it looks like.

If an archer's form is consistent the only reason why an archer would miss than would be an aiming issue...or a mental issue :wink: which I have from time to time.



BarneySlayer said:


> However, if they're all over the place, and have removed aiming from the equation, it is entirely likely that person probably doesn't have good repeatable form.


I agree :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mental fatigue is definitely a big factor as well as physical. If it's just not going well it's probably better to come back later. Remember, the desire is mental and directly affects the mission, if your mind is wandering your focus won't be concentrated on the combination of the two well enough for them to work together.


Yeah i don't really find my focus or concentration wandering off just i kinda lost the desire to hit the spot after a while i knew i should probably pack it up but i always like ending on a good note so i continued till i got 1 last good shot which took a while.I dont really physically fatigue though anymore i have been working on shoulder and back muscles at the gym and i dont get sore doing archery anymore is that the only part of physical fatigue in archery or is there more to physical fatigue because i doubt that i would somehow be able to never physically fatigue while other guys much older than i and stronger do.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Smitty1hunter said:


> I was very hesitant to post a reply to this thread because I have very limited experience shooting a trad bow but want to get back into it soon. The reason I am going to post is because I know a few guys who have given me instruction who are really good so basically I'm paraphrasing. Form can vary quite a bit from one person to another, like mentioned, consistency is def. key. My brother studied African tribes whose form looks a bit ridiculous. The stick their butt way out and crouch over quite a bit. Their bow arm is turned inward and then they turn their wrist up, this gets your forearm out the way. You wont see an Olympic archer with this form but my guess is it works really good because if they miss they don't eat! I'm also of the opinion that if I wanted to shoot a trad bow by gap shooting I wouldn't even pick it up. Yes it works and you can even make a tape to go on your bow that is mathematically correct. What's the fun in that?! If I wanted to shoot with a sight I'd just stick with my compound. I want to be Byron Ferguson, you know, be the arrow. The human brain is doing multiple things at once. When you shoot a bow you are in essence gap shooting, looking at your arrow, and aiming at your target all at the same time. Your brain has the ability to work out the most complicated shot in the blink of an eye one you have done it enough. It seems impossible except that it works. My suggestion is find a form that feels good and doesn't make you think too much. When you throw a football you're not thinking turn body, snap back wrist, follow through, you just throw the freakin' ball! You do it enough you start getting good at it. When I started playing tennis I would hit the ball against a wall at just a few feet. I would hit it where I wanted it to go and then slowly start backing up. There is no such thing as starting too close! Hit where you are aiming and start backing up. Before long it will be second nature. If that doesn't work I hear golf drives people as crazy as archery!


I Feel the same way i maybe even worse at that,to all people suggesting other archery techniques such as gapping and sights i just won't be interested in archery anymore I've tried compounds and gapping withmy trad bow just don't like it.Instinctive archery is pretty much the only type i have fun with and enjoy others feel more like a choir.I suppose the main reason i like instinctive archery is because it feels more relaxing and meditative to me so i suppose if im doing archery instinctive would be the way i would want to go.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Smitty1hunter said:


> I was very hesitant to post a reply to this thread because I have very limited experience shooting a trad bow but want to get back into it soon. The reason I am going to post is because I know a few guys who have given me instruction who are really good so basically I'm paraphrasing. Form can vary quite a bit from one person to another, like mentioned, consistency is def. key. My brother studied African tribes whose form looks a bit ridiculous. The stick their butt way out and crouch over quite a bit. Their bow arm is turned inward and then they turn their wrist up, this gets your forearm out the way. You wont see an Olympic archer with this form but my guess is it works really good because if they miss they don't eat! *I'm also of the opinion that if I wanted to shoot a trad bow by gap shooting I wouldn't even pick it up. Yes it works and you can even make a tape to go on your bow that is mathematically correct. What's the fun in that?! If I wanted to shoot with a sight I'd just stick with my compound. I want to be Byron Ferguson, you know, be the arrow.* The human brain is doing multiple things at once. When you shoot a bow you are in essence gap shooting, looking at your arrow, and aiming at your target all at the same time. Your brain has the ability to work out the most complicated shot in the blink of an eye one you have done it enough. It seems impossible except that it works. My suggestion is find a form that feels good and doesn't make you think too much. When you throw a football you're not thinking turn body, snap back wrist, follow through, you just throw the freakin' ball! You do it enough you start getting good at it. When I started playing tennis I would hit the ball against a wall at just a few feet. I would hit it where I wanted it to go and then slowly start backing up. There is no such thing as starting too close! Hit where you are aiming and start backing up. Before long it will be second nature. If that doesn't work I hear golf drives people as crazy as archery!


That is a great post and I couldn't agree more with *"THAT".*

I started out shooting stickbows as a 7-8 year old kid with my father and his friends chanting to me...

_"Just look at what you want to hit and with one fluid motion..."_

and it took awhile...but not that long before I realized there was actually something to it...if not flat out "Special" and in a magical sort of way to me back then.

I'm 55 now and restarted this stickbow fetish of mine about 3 years ago after finding these cool traditional forums...and did so by dragging out my old 54# Bob Lee TD Hunter and shooting it the way I always had...Instinctive/Snap....and this was me then...






now my original "Fluid Snap Form" had already been tainted (so to speak) by me trying to instill some conscious form aspects learned about in forums such as these....and some of it did most certainly help but it also sent me down a 2 1/2 year long road that saw me buying and selling bow after bow going lower and lower in poundage until I was shooting bows 1/2 the weight of my original Bob Lee...holding them at full draw...crawling up in my head about every little thing and attempting to use my arrow as a crude sighting system...then my old wheelbow buddy Target Panic came back to pay me a visit and I became extremely stressed and sad with my archery with a feeling that...

"Shooting my stickbows was never like this for me before...and I went to them to get away from the stressed out horrors of my past of competitive compound shooting yet sure enough?...here I am again trying to shoot my stickbow as though it were a wheelbow....holding an ultra-light stick and trying to use the arrow as a sight?...what the heck am I doing here!"

and that was that...it was time to find the fun again...and I did...and don't get me wrong...those cats that can and do whale away on long distance field targets and such?...have a skill ANYONE should be dang proud of...and they all worked darn hard at it to acquire it...and such definitely earns my respect.....but for me?....it's about fun and relaxation....the same sort one might get casually throwing a baseball or football or frisbee back and forth with a child or friend.

And another thing I hope folks don't take me wrong about is this...I do still have those moments when I pull down my 30# Bear Polar and go form shoot...but mostly?...it serves just to remind me of what I don't want to do...cause truth be known?...I admire it all...I've even entertained thoughts of saving up for an Olympic rig...but again...I know where that will lead...and it's just not a place I wish to go these days...fun first...relaxation 2nd...and yes...maybe some time in the woods hunting again should the opportunity present itself.

But the way I feel now?...is my mantra of...If it ain't Fun?...you're doing it wrong! :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> That is a great post and I couldn't agree more with *"THAT".*
> 
> But the way I feel now?...is my mantra of...*If it ain't Fun?...you're doing it wrong!* :laugh:
> 
> L8R, Bill. :cool2:


:thumbs_up


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## Spoolio (Mar 3, 2014)

I've been trying to learn this as well, so it's really useful to see all the advice. In retrospect, i think I need to go back to shooting 10 yards so I can get my form down first. Doesn't help that I'm learning on a 55# bow, but it's what i've got


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Let me tell you from a person who has shot both Instinctively and Gapped to a good standard, the learning process between the two aiming styles are very different but once mastered the internal process of what goes on in your head to make accurate shot is exactly the same.

Don't be fooled by the romance of the Instinctive path, it may be a different path to Gap but the destination is the same.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Allot will depend on how in tune an archer is with their body.
> 
> The more in tune you are the more you can feel variations in your form.
> 
> ...


I guess this is where a coach or other set of educated eyes comes in but my problem with "blank bale" is the same as BarneySlayer's. The lack of feedback. How it "feels" doesn't always seem to indicate how well it will work when you're trying to hit a target.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Smitty1hunter said:


> I was very hesitant to post a reply to this thread because I have very limited experience shooting a trad bow but want to get back into it soon. The reason I am going to post is because I know a few guys who have given me instruction who are really good so basically I'm paraphrasing. Form can vary quite a bit from one person to another, like mentioned, consistency is def. key. My brother studied African tribes whose form looks a bit ridiculous. The stick their butt way out and crouch over quite a bit. Their bow arm is turned inward and then they turn their wrist up, this gets your forearm out the way. You wont see an Olympic archer with this form but my guess is it works really good because if they miss they don't eat! I'm also of the opinion that if I wanted to shoot a trad bow by gap shooting I wouldn't even pick it up. Yes it works and you can even make a tape to go on your bow that is mathematically correct. What's the fun in that?! If I wanted to shoot with a sight I'd just stick with my compound. I want to be Byron Ferguson, you know, be the arrow. The human brain is doing multiple things at once. When you shoot a bow you are in essence gap shooting, looking at your arrow, and aiming at your target all at the same time. Your brain has the ability to work out the most complicated shot in the blink of an eye one you have done it enough. It seems impossible except that it works. My suggestion is find a form that feels good and doesn't make you think too much. When you throw a football you're not thinking turn body, snap back wrist, follow through, you just throw the freakin' ball! You do it enough you start getting good at it. When I started playing tennis I would hit the ball against a wall at just a few feet. I would hit it where I wanted it to go and then slowly start backing up. There is no such thing as starting too close! Hit where you are aiming and start backing up. Before long it will be second nature. If that doesn't work I hear golf drives people as crazy as archery!


I understand your post and usually do not get into the conversation about gap vs instinctive 

I am an instinctive shooter (subconscious gapper) 

I feel the same way about shooting my style as you do but ............ Since I have left my backyard and ventured out and I have shot a few rounds with world class gap shooters I have gained a very healthy respect for their consistence and how proficient they can be 

Many of us do not aspire to be a world champion and for some myself included my simple system at the ranges I hunt works very well but I have seen what is possible and I would never say never 

Bottum Line is that a good gapper will beat a good instinctive shot 9 times out of 10 IMHO


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

Honestly, I think if you look at the aiming techniques without bias it is hard not to see they all share one or more things from another. I pretty much agree with those who can plainly state they all have their advantages in certain situations. 

A detailed aiming method will benefit from good instincts or intuition, and a good intuitive shot will benefit from discipline and form....well that makes sense to me at least.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I guess this is where a coach or other set of educated eyes comes in but my problem with "blank bale" is the same as BarneySlayer's. The lack of feedback. How it "feels" doesn't always seem to indicate how well it will work when you're trying to hit a target.


You're absolutely correct...especially for most archers....especially new archers.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowzen said:


> Honestly, I think if you look at the aiming techniques without bias it is hard not to see they all share one or more things from another. I pretty much agree with those who can plainly state they all have their advantages in certain situations.
> 
> A detailed aiming method will benefit from good instincts or intuition, and a good intuitive shot will benefit from discipline and form....well that makes sense to me at least.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Many of us do not aspire to be a world champion and for some myself included my simple system at the ranges I hunt works very well but I have seen what is possible and I would never say never
> 
> Bottum Line is that a good gapper will beat a good instinctive shot 9 times out of 10 IMHO


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

J, I totally agree that many do not wish to become a World Champion...however nobody will convince me that we all don't wish to be more accurate...especially on a live target...I know I've made poor shots on live game and it's an awful feeling thwt I hope to never have again.

Instinctive, gap,pick a point, whatever it's all about making to best shot you can.


Dewayne


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

I shot instinctively for a lot of years. I continued to shoot instinctively with the first several compounds I owned (not as unusual back then as some newcomers to the sport likely believe).

I no longer shoot instinctively for two reasons: 1) I'm a lot more accurate with pins, and 2) I don't want to devote that much time to practicing. Can't say exactly how many how many hours it would translate to in order to be "adequately" accurate, but it's a whole lot more than I need or want to deal with these days.
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

I went to the field again to do archery and ths time i did awful lol.They werent scattered around the arrows just came short everytime coulden't even hit my target.I was quite frustrated because i coulden't put my finger on what i was doing wrong i should have stopped but was just determined to get atleast 1 decent shot.Seems weird since probably my best shooting yet was from the past few days.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> J, I totally agree that many do not wish to become a World Champion...however nobody will convince me that we all don't wish to be more accurate...especially on a live target...I know I've made poor shots on live game and it's an awful feeling thwt I hope to never have again.
> 
> Instinctive, gap,pick a point, whatever it's all about making to best shot you can.
> 
> ...


I agree Dwayne that's why I said never say never


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Hey guys ive been thinking a lot about my release since earlier and wanted to know is it ok(by that i mean am i plucking or not) that 1 my fingers or hand do not touch my face and 2 when i release my hand relaxes and my fingers do not completley open like an open fist they kinda hang halfway between closed and open.If the weathers good ill try and get a video of my shooting so you can see.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

flowarcher said:


> Hey guys ive been thinking a lot about...


Great news Flow!...Instinctively?...I found your problem! 

I'm serious here....if you're working on "Form Development"....yes....by all means....think away....but do it from about 3yds away from a blank bale...better yet?...close your eyes and "Blind Bale" to "FEEL" what "your natural form" is and ingrain "That".

Then go looking around for something that needs a hole in it...and if you can keep that head like an upside down goldfish bowl?...you'll be amazed at what solid repeatable form along with the oh so awesomely powerful subconscious mind...."Sans Any Conscious Thought Whatsoever"....is truly capable of.

And you can take that too the woods.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> I went to the field again to do archery and ths time i did awful lol.They werent scattered around the arrows just came short everytime coulden't even hit my target.I was quite frustrated because i coulden't put my finger on what i was doing wrong i should have stopped but was just determined to get atleast 1 decent shot.Seems weird since probably my best shooting yet was from the past few days.




Does not compute! Did you venture too far away from the target? Were the arrows falling short as if they ran out of gas? Or, were you shooting them into the ground in front of the target.
When you post the video it will all become clear and be easier to help you figure it out.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> Great news Flow!...Instinctively?...I found your problem!
> 
> I'm serious here....if you're working on "Form Development"....yes....by all means....think away....but do it from about 3yds away from a blank bale...better yet?...close your eyes and "Blind Bale" to "FEEL" what "your natural form" is and ingrain "That".
> 
> ...


Sorry probably didnt make thia clear.When i went out shooting yesterday and did bad i wasnt thinking about form but later that day i came back to work on form about 3 yards away.I just noticed that when my hand released my string it didnt fully open.
Anyway weather is good today here will post a video soon


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Sorry this so short my battery died pretty much straight away didn't notice my charger wasn't fully plugged in so this is all i got but this was probably my worst group ive ever done so im glad i got it on camera.I wasnt focusing on form when i did this either


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Casual observations...

Looks like you're opening your hand away from your face and then pulling it back, as opposed to follow through caused by the loss of holding resistance caused by a slip in what we look for with a dynamic release.

Also, I can't read your mind, but it doesn't look like you're actually putting much mental focus into each shot. The impression I get when watching that is that you're looking at the target, going through the motions, and expecting some magic to happen. May not be accurate, but that's what it looks like.

My suggestions....
Develop a shot sequence, a list of things that you think are important to do, that end with transferring your attention to the target. It will give you brain something to do that is consistent, as well as assist in developing and redeveloping form (yes, it's a consistent task). Over time, your shot sequence my evolve, as some things become so ingrained you no longer have to think of them at all, or other issues pop up, and you need to put them in your countdown check list, so to speak.

Take more time with each arrow. After an arrow, take 10-15 seconds to simply clear your head. Then think about what you're going to do, and go through it deliberately, like this is the only arrow that matters, and the only one you'll get. Easier said than done, I know


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

BarneySlayer said:


> Casual observations...
> 
> Looks like you're opening your hand away from your face and then pulling it back, as opposed to follow through caused by the loss of holding resistance caused by a slip in what we look for with a dynamic release.
> 
> ...


Yeah i was thinking my release doesn't look that good too but all im doing is relaxing my hand,if i pull back that probably out of habit so i definetly need to work on my release if anyone has some tips.
As for the mental focus i don't quite understand,what im doing is envisioning my arrows going where i want it before i draw,then clear my head of anything but what im looking at and proceed to and releasing when my instinct tells me to let go is the another part im missing to it?
Ill also take your tip on slowing down each arrow shot,Again force of habit because i wanted to try and learn to draw fast at one stage so it stuck with me.
Thanks for the comment any more tips and criticism is welcomed.


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## alukban (May 24, 2013)

I'm a total newb also but what has helped me tremendously is "feeling" the direction of the arrow between my hands - that vector - as I concentrate on the target. When that "feeling" is right on, I am also right on.

One of the things that I am realizing is that direction/pointing something without involving a force component, that "push <-> pull" thing, makes it lacking in one's sense of vectorizing the thing. It is the same thing with running a handgun - driving it towards the target. The arrow shot to me is complete with the follow through of the bow hand pushing towards the target and the shot feeling just happening with the direction + force of pointing with the sense of the arrow's vector.

Pretty airy-fairy description I guess... :embara:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Watch this and do what Jimmy does. I know you live out in the sticks - I do as well and that's a good thing but, as you pointed out it makes getting coaching hard. There is no reason to beat yourself up about aiming until you have a solid repeatable form and shot sequence.

Take some time to brows through Jimmy's whole video collection - they are great http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmyblackmon

Another Great one to look at is Mobow's channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbp6-yyllTxo6pnhEYFpKhQ


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

You're ok, the main thing I see is rushing the shot and that has lead you to just flingin arrows and not giving each arrow the attention it should have. That's a good thing after you become proficient, but in the beginning it's not good. 
You should only bring one arrow to the field and focus all attention on one shot. You have the swing draw down fairly well but a few seconds pause at anchor will allow your brain time connect the dots between the target, your eyes, and your hands. Three or four seconds will cause the tension build on your fingers and the string will slip out more effectively. During that pause is the time to be focusing your eyes on the target. Focus is more involved than just looking at it. That's when the desire is created in your mind for the arrow to hit a particular spot. It's not mechanical though so hold a few seconds and let the string slip away without consciously releasing it.


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

totally agree with the pause at anchor, I see my shot as a launch sequence when I reach full draw I have committed to the shot and use the hold to finalize my focus. I see it in my minds eye as dialing a scope from 3X to 9X. In other words going from focusing on the bullseye or kill zone in its entirety to as small a spot as I can see be it an X or the very point of a patch of ruffed up hair for myself the release just happens from there. Coming back to recurves after 15 years of compounds this was my biggest problem I had to train my mind to maintain alignment and tension for that pause and lose the "let it go now" trigger pull mind frame. Anyway that worked for me along with watching those afore mentioned videos about a thousand times. My technique probably wouldn't work on aerials or fast moving targets but I'm just not that good.

hope this helps,

chris


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> You're ok, the main thing I see is rushing the shot and that has lead you to just flingin arrows and not giving each arrow the attention it should have. That's a good thing after you become proficient, but in the beginning it's not good.
> You should only bring one arrow to the field and focus all attention on one shot. You have the swing draw down fairly well but a few seconds pause at anchor will allow your brain time connect the dots between the target, your eyes, and your hands. Three or four seconds will cause the tension build on your fingers and the string will slip out more effectively. During that pause is the time to be focusing your eyes on the target. Focus is more involved than just looking at it. That's when the desire is created in your mind for the arrow to hit a particular spot. It's not mechanical though so hold a few seconds and let the string slip away without consciously releasing it.


 How do you release unconciously?I would just hold the string for a very long time until my arm tires and reverse ly draw back without letting go of the string.Previously i just let go when i got a feeling it was time.I even suprise myself didn't realised i shot so quick after draw feels a lot longer when i do it.


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

what I was referring to was keeping my back muscles engaged, keeping my wrist loose and just relaxing my forearm muscles letting the string slip free, if I think about opening my fingers it causes me all kinds of problems with sting pluck, letting the string basically push through my fingers gives me a smooth release.

chris


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hold up...I didn't "see" a problem...I "Heard" one...those arrows sounded like they were whacking Flowarchers bow like a baseball bat....sent me racing for my volume control kind of Loud.

Flow....the bow needs tuning...and until you at least get it close?...no amount of form or aiming is going to give you consistent accuracy at a variety of distances.

I Think your arrows are too stiff and whacking the pi$$ out of your riser. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Pick up a bucket of sand and drop it. don't think about relaxing you fingers think about relaxing for fore arm. 

The release is a non-thought.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

I watched your video. I'm sure the form guys can pick it apart. This will sound strange... But if things are not perfect, as long as they are the same each time, you should get better groups than what you shot. So, I'm wondering... the bow does not act or sound as if it is shooting "snappy". What poundage are you shooting? I honestly did not see a major flaw in your shooting. Nothing that if repeated everytime the same, whether wrong or not, that would not produce decent groups at short range. Do you know someone who has another bow you can borrow? A terribly weak bow is so "spongy" that it does not shoot well.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

I really believe that the pause at full draw like in Rick Welchs videos will benifit most shooters.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Hold up...I didn't "see" a problem...I "Heard" one...those arrows sounded like they were whacking Flowarchers bow like a baseball bat....sent me racing for my volume control kind of Loud.
> 
> Flow....the bow needs tuning...and until you at least get it close?...no amount of form or aiming is going to give you consistent accuracy at a variety of distances.
> 
> I Think your arrows are too stiff and whacking the pi$$ out of your riser. L8R, Bill. :cool2:



Good catch Bill, I didn't notice it the first time but after replaying it several times I believe you might be right. Do you think it could be the proximity of the bow to the microphone.
Either way it's a good time for the OP to post up the information about the bow and arrows. At least then we will know if they are way too stiff. 
It's really pretty hard for us to remember what it feels like to be a beginner. Shooting a bow takes time to learn and it can be frustrating at times. Don't give up and someday you will wonder how it seemed so hard when you were starting out. You're doing fine, just hang in there. The video was the best post so far.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

vabowdog said:


> Don't take this the wrong way please....but I've seen people shooting instinctive for 10 years and are really no better shot today than they were 8 years ago...the issue IF you're wanting better accuracy is with instinctive shooting you don't have a way to check yourself with each and every shot.
> 
> If you want your accuracy to get better then you're going to have to learn some type of a method like gapping or pick a point.
> 
> ...


After all the posts this is still the Best advice given and the simple answer.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I watched your video. I'm sure the form guys can pick it apart. This will sound strange... But if things are not perfect, as long as they are the same each time, you should get better groups than what you shot. So, I'm wondering... the bow does not act or sound as if it is shooting "snappy". What poundage are you shooting? I honestly did not see a major flaw in your shooting. Nothing that if repeated everytime the same, whether wrong or not, that would not produce decent groups at short range. Do you know someone who has another bow you can borrow? A terribly weak bow is so "spongy" that it does not shoot well.


40 pound bow,Dont think that being to weak is the problem i know what you mean though,used to have a 20 pound and was not accurate at all.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok my deatails are:
Samick sage 40pounbd @28
arrows are .600 spine at 282 length
draw length is around 26"
Brace height is about 7.8-8 inch(which when i changed form a lower brace hieght it got a LOT louder which i noticed)
my string silencers broke off my string need new ones if that matters


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I suspect that the bow sounded a bit loud because of the release and...there aren't any string silencers on it, are there?

I think the arrows are probably in the ball park....close enough for government work.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

MGF said:


> I suspect that the bow sounded a bit loud because of the release and...there aren't any string silencers on it, are there?
> 
> I think the arrows are probably in the ball park....close enough for government work.


Yup no string silencers i did have some catwhiskers on my string but they broke off ,it was very quite when it did have silencers.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Flow...what's the length of those arrows again?...282 does not compute...also...what is your point weight?


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

JINKSTER said:


> Hold up...I didn't "see" a problem...I "Heard" one...those arrows sounded like they were whacking Flowarchers bow like a baseball bat....sent me racing for my volume control kind of Loud.
> 
> Flow....the bow needs tuning...and until you at least get it close?...no amount of form or aiming is going to give you consistent accuracy at a variety of distances.
> 
> I Think your arrows are too stiff and whacking the pi$$ out of your riser. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


I had the same problem. Check the bottom feather. Is it hitting anything? The bottom feather will be ruffled somewhat. They will tell you. Dust the ends in baby powder also helps.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> Flow...what's the length of those arrows again?...282 does not compute...also...what is your point weight?


28" sorry typo.
got them off these guys http://www.flybowshop.com/assets/s2dmain.html?http://www.flybowshop.com/
Penthalon "SL black" 
field tips(dont know the weight either 65,85,100,or 125 grains) i dont know much again weights but the field tips are definetly very light if a nothing like a broadhead if one of those weights would be a broadhead weight 
Straightness: 004
i talked to these guys and gave them my bow info and they said they would make arrows that would fit my bow and they also made my string.


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

Could be too light of an arrow? I shoot 500's. We have similar poundages and draw lengths. I also found taping a matchstick to my window is helping. It gives me a point of consistency. That way I know it's form and release and not aiming.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

txbowcub said:


> I had the same problem. Check the bottom feather. Is it hitting anything? The bottom feather will be ruffled somewhat. They will tell you. Dust the ends in baby powder also helps.


Yes my arrows are ruffled at the end very much so they feel a lot softer than top arrows and look more worn at the ends.Also if it matters when i bought the bow my arrows shelf has velcro on it that i place my arrows on


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

On the second shot your hand does leave your face as it goes back.

Your arrows are not tuned and probably to weak. A 500 would probably be a better pick in spine. You will not group well with a weak arrow. They tend to go all over the place unless your form is perfect.

We can not see your bow arm follow through. If you do another vid try to put the camera back a bit so we can see the whole pic. I am guessing you are dropping your bow arm

That is plenty to work on on that beautiful range you have. You are a lucky guy. Have fun!

Here is some vid on form and exercises:
http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/coaching_videos.php

Here is some info on tuning:
http://veraxservice.net/arch/tune.html


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

"Shooting the Stickbow" says to shoot off a rest when beginning as it eliminates some of the guess work when starting out. I didn't do that but it probably would cut a lot of the initial guess work out of it.

Also - Raising the brace height and nocking point might help it avoid the shelf. Just needs some tuning.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

The velcro on the shelf is fine. You may want it to cover only half of the shelf (the long ways) for better clearance.

Try to pause at anchor for a while, see if that helps. You can always go back to snap shooting if you want to later.

I was having problems with snap shooting and found that a good pause (EXPANSION) was a great help.

Try to slow down a little and smile at each loose. I shoot better when I am happy and having a good time.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

flowarcher said:


> 28" sorry typo.
> got them off these guys http://www.flybowshop.com/assets/s2dmain.html?http://www.flybowshop.com/
> Penthalon "SL black"
> field tips(dont know the weight either 65,85,100,or 125 grains) i dont know much again weights but the field tips are definetly very light if a nothing like a broadhead if one of those weights would be a broadhead weight
> ...


So let's review...40 lbs bow...drawn too 26 inches. ..means your shooting 600 spine arrows that are cut down to 28 inches at about 36 pounds of draw weight...dude...you are away stiff on arrow spine...You may get them to fly off that bow if you screw in about 250 grains of point weight...the sound of your shaft smacking your riser jolted my ears on your first shot...I have a 250 watt log it ech sound system hooked to my computer...I had to turn it up to hear you nock the arrow then almost blew my speakers at the shot.

and I bet you're getting some fletch wear! LOL!


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Also the expansion and relaxing the forearm is what gives you the "unknown" release. I still have huge problems with this part of the shot...and I do not care. I will get it eventually...if I shoot enough. Now I am trying to enjoy each shoot regardless of the results.

I am new to this and expect to get better over time.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I missed the 26" draw part. I was mistaken and thought your pull was 28", thus 40#s. So I am not sure about your arrow tune now.

Do some bare shaft tuning, so that you can determine where your arrows are in terms of tune.


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## txbowcub (Apr 10, 2014)

http://www.victoryarchery.com/carbon-arrows/sizing-charts/

700 Spine arrows at 100 Grain head? He is right in between. Same problem I had. Had to put 145 on the 400's, raise the brace height, and nock point to get them to clear. But my velocity really dropped. Dropped to 500's with 125's and worked like a charm.

I am asking really. I am not even close to any kind of expert. Just sharing my experience as it sounded really familiar.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Dang :/ moms not gonna like the fact i need to get new arrows again.She thinks its a really expensive sport and should give it up but i really don't want to.and i only bought these arrows last jan . I got some adder points for if i ever want to go hunting so i guess ill put those on..are heavier tips gonna be expensive?I would prefer to get new tips rather then new arrows if i could.
Also does it matter that if i change the brace height the noise is significantly different?when i put it down about an inch' its a LOT quieter.Only put it up case i was hitting my arm.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

wseward said:


> Also the expansion and relaxing the forearm is what gives you the "unknown" release. I still have huge problems with this part of the shot...and I do not care. I will get it eventually...if I shoot enough. Now I am trying to enjoy each shoot regardless of the results.
> 
> I am new to this and expect to get better over time.


im in the same boat as you..its really fun right now, i have my good groups then i have my what the what groups but could careless, because shooting the recurve is one of the more addicting things ive ever done in my life!!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Am I reading wrong or do we have one guy telling him his arrows are weak and another telling him they're way too stiff?

Stiff or weak, they should mostly go to the same place and those arrows were all over the place. My money says that tuning is NOT the issue. I can shoot a 29 inch 2117 (400ish spine) off my 40# (I draw just a shade past 27") solid glass "toy bow" and put them in a "group". The guy at the shop sold my wife 29" 2016 (.500ish spine) with her 35# PSE and they'll group. Just do some tuning before you try to shoot broadheads.

The problem is that you aren't going to be able to even do much real tuning until you get a little better handle on your shooting.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

flowarcher said:


> Dang :/ moms not gonna like the fact i need to get new arrows again.She thinks its a really expensive sport and should give it up but i really don't want to.and i only bought these arrows last jan . I got some adder points for if i ever want to go hunting so i guess ill put those on..are heavier tips gonna be expensive?I would prefer to get new tips rather then new arrows if i could.
> Also does it matter that if i change the brace height the noise is significantly different?when i put it down about an inch' its a LOT quieter.Only put it up case i was hitting my arm.


Put the brace height inside the range that the manufacturer gives. Beyond that it's one of the things you adjust to get your arrows flying well. All else being equal, a better flying arrow will probably be quieter. However, a poor release makes more noise than anything except maybe the case of a misaligned limb or something where the arrow is really smacking the riser and that sounds like a firecracker. I didn't hear anything like that in the video.

I had a PSE take down that always sounded like a firecracker on the first shot after being restrung. It about made me mess my pants. LOL


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

MGF said:


> Put the brace height inside the range that the manufacturer gives. Beyond that it's one of the things you adjust to get your arrows flying well. All else being equal, a better flying arrow will probably be quieter. However, a poor release makes more noise than anything except maybe the case of a misaligned limb or something where the arrow is really smacking the riser and that sounds like a firecracker. I didn't hear anything like that in the video.
> 
> I had a PSE take down that always sounded like a firecracker on the first shot after being restrung. It about made me mess my pants. LOL


manufacturer brace height is betwewn 7.5" to 8.30" however its quieter the higher it is.Also about all the arrow spine being wrong if it is so my arrows are too stiff or weak how come my arrows fly completely straight when there is no wind?Tried testing it from 3-30 meters they all fly straight.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

flowarcher said:


> manufacturer brace height is betwewn 7.5" to 8.30" however its quieter the higher it is.Also about all the arrow spine being wrong if it is so my arrows are too stiff or weak how come my arrows fly completely straight when there is no wind?Tried testing it from 3-30 meters they all fly straight.


Fletching can correct for a lot when shooting a field point. If they're stiff or weak they may group left or right and maybe be less forgiving(not group quite as tight).

If it were me I wouldn't go spending a bunch of money and, for some of us, a dozen arrows is a bunch of money. If anything you can get a field point tuning kit (a bunch of different weight field points) from 3-rivers for like $6.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Dang :/ moms not gonna like the fact i need to get new arrows again.She thinks its a really expensive sport and should give it up but i really don't want to.and i only bought these arrows last jan . I got some adder points for if i ever want to go hunting so i guess ill put those on..are heavier tips gonna be expensive?I would prefer to get new tips rather then new arrows if i could.
> Also does it matter that if i change the brace height the noise is significantly different?when i put it down about an inch' its a LOT quieter.Only put it up case i was hitting my arm.



Jinkster gets the award here. But, not to worry, you just need some heavier points or some way to add weight to the existing ones. Not knowing if you have the standard aluminum inserts or heavier brass inserts limits my calculations to some extent. Doesn't matter how you get it as long as you end up with approximately 200 grains up front. My best guess, at the moment, would be to find some 100 gr. inserts and any of the point weights you listed will get you closer.
It sounds like a compound shop sold you the arrows because they tend to think in terms of short, stiff and light. Not the correct way of thinking for a recurve.
Here's a quick test, mark the center of the arrow and then using a pencil or something similar on a flat surface, balance the arrow on the pencil and mark that location. Measure the distance from the middle to the balance mark and post it for us. I already have enough information to figure the foc and that will shed more light on the arrow situation.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> Am I reading wrong or do we have one guy telling him his arrows are weak and another telling him they're way too stiff?
> 
> Stiff or weak, they should mostly go to the same place and those arrows were all over the place. My money says that tuning is NOT the issue. I can shoot a 29 inch 2117 (400ish spine) off my 40# (I draw just a shade past 27") solid glass "toy bow" and put them in a "group". The guy at the shop sold my wife 29" 2016 (.500ish spine) with her 35# PSE and they'll group. Just do some tuning before you try to shoot broadheads.
> 
> The problem is that you aren't going to be able to even do much real tuning until you get a little better handle on your shooting.



Too stiff, I actually used the calculator and 200 grains is ballpark. MGF, I have had some experience back in the day with super light points and they seemed to have a mind of their own. Fast but unreliable, as in all over the place. I agree that as a general rule the arrows will group to some extent but, in this case any improvement will help the OP to stay focused. AND, maybe his mom won't put knots on his noggin if he doesn't need new arrows.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> manufacturer brace height is betwewn 7.5" to 8.30" however its quieter the higher it is.Also about all the arrow spine being wrong if it is so my arrows are too stiff or weak how come my arrows fly completely straight when there is no wind?Tried testing it from 3-30 meters they all fly straight.



Flying straight doesn't always result in hitting where you want it to. Without going into too much detail at this point, do those measurements and report back. 
BUT, if you were shooting 30 meters in the video, then all bets are off. You are not experienced enough to expect accuracy at that distance yet.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

"If they're stiff or weak they may group left or right and maybe be less forgiving(not group quite as tight)."

You should really consider bare shaft testing the arrows you have now. You will learn something.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Jinkster gets the award here. But, not to worry, you just need some heavier points or some way to add weight to the existing ones. Not knowing if you have the standard aluminum inserts or heavier brass inserts limits my calculations to some extent. Doesn't matter how you get it as long as you end up with approximately 200 grains up front. My best guess, at the moment, would be to find some 100 gr. inserts and any of the point weights you listed will get you closer.
> It sounds like a compound shop sold you the arrows because they tend to think in terms of short, stiff and light. Not the correct way of thinking for a recurve.
> Here's a quick test, mark the center of the arrow and then using a pencil or something similar on a flat surface, balance the arrow on the pencil and mark that location. Measure the distance from the middle to the balance mark and post it for us. I already have enough information to figure the foc and that will shed more light on the arrow situation.


distance is 2.9 inches excluding my arrow tip for the centre of the arrow
also i find it strange because the bowshop i got my arrows from are strictly traditional archery shop.
If you also want i can post a picture of my field tip but dunno if that will help.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> distance is 2.9 inches excluding my arrow tip for the centre of the arrow
> also i find it strange because the bowshop i got my arrows from are strictly traditional archery shop.
> If you also want i can post a picture of my field tip but dunno if that will help.



I'm with you, maybe just a mistake on the part of the shop. But, that 2.9 inch divided by 28 (arrow length) gives us about 10% front of center which means you are really light up front. So, with big feathers on the back, guess who's in the drivers seat. That probably explains why you were shooting well at ten yds and things went haywire when you started extending the distance. The calculator shows 200grs to tune the arrow and that results in 22% foc if I remember correctly. You will see a big difference in stability. 
Now, that may not totally solve your accuracy problem because the learning curve is still an issue. But, I prefer to correct things that I can positively identify before going any further. You will see a difference though with an arrow tuned to the bow.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I'm with you, maybe just a mistake on the part of the shop. But, that 2.9 inch divided by 28 (arrow length) gives us about 10% front of center which means you are really light up front. So, with big feathers on the back, guess who's in the drivers seat. That probably explains why you were shooting well at ten yds and things went haywire when you started extending the distance. The calculator shows 200grs to tune the arrow and that results in 22% foc if I remember correctly. You will see a big difference in stability.
> Now, that may not totally solve your accuracy problem because the learning curve is still an issue. But, I prefer to correct things that I can positively identify before going any further. You will see a difference though with an arrow tuned to the bow.


Ok any arrow points you might reccomend for me?No idea where i can buy them and hwat price is a good deal.Also the adder points i have are 25 grains in weight.
And last thing is if i do get new points how will i remove the points?I don't know if there glued or tight fitted And when i do get new points should i glue them?
Also to your comment earlier,In the video i was only shooting about 18 meters.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Ok any arrow points you might reccomend for me?No idea where i can buy them and hwat price is a good deal.Also the adder points i have are 25 grains in weight.
> And last thing is if i do get new points how will i remove the points?I don't know if there glued or tight fitted And when i do get new points should i glue them?
> Also to your comment earlier,In the video i was only shooting about 18 meters.



I guess I'm having an oldsheimer moment but, I'm not sure what you mean by adder points. Try to make a close up picture of the arrow point and the adder points you are talking about. Be sure that some of the actual arrow is showing with the point. I'm looking to see if there are inserts with screw in points or if they hooked you up with glue in target points and no insert. 
The fix is easy and you can probably get the inserts from the shop where you bought the arrows or order them online.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

wseward said:


> "If they're stiff or weak they may group left or right and maybe be less forgiving(not group quite as tight)."
> 
> You should really consider bare shaft testing the arrows you have now. You will learn something.


All my shafts have been "bare shaft" tested and tuned accordingly...and shot with broadheads. But he isn't shooting bare shafts or using broadheads, is he?

Are you saying that his lack of grouping is because of his arrows?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> All my shafts have been "bare shaft" tested and tuned accordingly...and shot with broadheads. But he isn't shooting bare shafts or using broadheads, is he?
> 
> Are you saying that his lack of grouping is because of his arrows?



I am saying that's a good possibility considering the very light point on a stiff arrow and the foc is so low that they are unreliable in terms of accuracy in general.
In diagnosing a problem I lean towards first things first. If your vehicle is overheating and you open the hood and see a broken belt, would you send it to the radiator shop or replace the belt first?
I had an experience with super light weight points (compound) and they were just unreliable. Sort of a shotgun pattern.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I am saying that's a good possibility considering the very light point on a stiff arrow and the foc is so low that they are unreliable in terms of accuracy in general.
> In diagnosing a problem I lean towards first things first. If your vehicle is overheating and you open the hood and see a broken belt, would you send it to the radiator shop or replace the belt first?
> I had an experience with super light weight points (compound) and they were just unreliable. Sort of a shotgun pattern.


I was respond to wsewards remark concerning what I'm about to learn.

But let me suggest an archery related question in place of your auto-mechanics question. It's been several decades since they've built a car that I'd want to work on at all. LOL

If somebody hasn't learned to shoot a bow yet and is failing to group arrows, would you blame the arrows? I saw the video. I don't think the arrows are the problem. That's not to say that the arrows are presently a good match. Just that I don't think that's "the" problem.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow...lots of opinions and personal preferences being interjected here...guess I'll weigh in so Flowarcher doesn't get too confused here...maybe it will "help him"?

Flow...here's a list of things you can do that should have a positive impact...

1. Max out your Brace Height...you should be able to take it too 8 1/2"s with no worries and this will "dynamically" weaken the spine of your arrows.

2. I'm suspecting these things you're referring too as "Adder Points" are 25gr spacer weights...much like a flat washer...if so they get installed by removing your screw-in points...placing them on the threaded shank of your points and sandwiching them between the point and shaft...if this is not the case?..then I have no clue what these "adder points" are...however...much the same can be accomplished by buying a handful of #8 flat washers to add the weight needed...you may need 2...you may need 6...experiment with it.

3. The actual weight of your current points may/should be stamped on them...take a close look...rubbing some white chalk on them may help reveal light stampings.

4. Remove the Velcro strike plate from your riser wall...then use a durable thin tape such as duct tape or electrical tape to protect the finish...this will get your stiff shaft closer to center shot.

5. Strip fletchings off at least one (preferably two) of your arrows and keep adding the flat washers (mentioned above) until your bare shafts are flying straight and grouping with your fletched arrows.

6. Draw strong and long.

7. Start with your nocking point set high...like 3/4" above the bows shelf and work your way down.

For reference?....

I have some .650 spine CT Cheetah shafts that I cut 28 1/4"s...they require 200gr points for proper tune off my 37# R/D Longbow when drawn too 28"s.

I have some .600 spine Beman MFX Classics...cut too 29"s long...they require 100gr points to be shot off my 44# Herters Perfection Magnum 58" amo Recurve and 125gr points when shot from my 37# Longbow...but I'm drawing a full 2"s longer than you and 1" of CF shaft can make a HUGE difference in the dynamic spine of an arrow as you are now learning and to give you an idea?...when I'm "Cut Tuning" CF arrows?...it's done 1/4" at a time...and even that can make a huge difference.

There is a bright spot here though...as when these arrows of yours are tuned?...they will have a lot of weight forward...the downside is they'll most likely have the trajectory of a rainbow at distances beyond 20yds...the good news?...they will be very forgiving to shoot with a consistent and predictable arch at distances of 20yds and under.

$o don't bother Momma just yet...we're all here to help walk you through this and good luck, L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

"Are you saying that his lack of grouping is because of his arrows? "

Yes...it MAY be a large factor in why the OP's arrows are not grouping. Not the only factor however. As we are not there, it is difficult to tell what some of the other issues may be.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok these adder points are not made to add weight thats just a side affect.There used to cause shock when hunting animals with sharp field points to kill them faster and more effectively but they may help with weight but i can only put 1 on per arrow.
Found no sign of a print on my field points they are probably custom made as the shop i got them from are a small business and he made my string,nocks and fletching so maybe he also made the field points?I don't know.Also to people saying how the arrow is not the problem i agree.I obviously need some work however i also see forestgumps point about how fixing my arrows up first will allow me to more effectively practice and know where I am and first things first.
Also jinkster i dunno if i feel comfortable taking the velcro off or fletching off incase i mess them up really don't want more expense i would want to know how to take the velcro off aswell as i dont know why the velcro is a problem.
i also dont think i would like to take the fletching off of one of my arrows because i don't know how to put them back on and don't know anyone who does is there any other work around?
Anyway here is the picture of my adder points and arrow tip


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Last week, I took the step of giving up on "group tuning" of two different sets of arrows on two different archery rigs. Took the vanes of of one 500 and the feathers off of one 600. Then bare shaft tuned both. Made much progress and learned much.

Not easy to strip the fletch off of one of your arrows. If you do and spend the time tuning it will be time well spent. I try to keep at least one bare shaft of each type of arrow I have for checking tune. Just one way of trying to improve.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

wseward said:


> Last week, I took the step of giving up on "group tuning" of two different sets of arrows on two different archery rigs. Took the vanes of of one 500 and the feathers off of one 600. Then bare shaft tuned both. Made much progress and learned much.
> 
> Not easy to strip the fletch off of one of your arrows. If you do and spend the time tuning it will be time well spent. I try to keep at least one bare shaft of each type of arrow I have for checking tune. Just one way of trying to improve.


Woulden't have much of a problem doing this if i wasn't down to 4 arrows lol.I do have one of the same arrow with a TINY TINY crack at the end nothing to serious but its enough so my field point is very lose in it so i havent used it for target practice.Since i Can't Use it for target practice perhaps i could take the fletching off that one? The point will be lose but it stays in when flying,Only comes out when i pull it out of my target.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

flowarcher said:


> Ok these adder points are not made to add weight thats just a side affect.There used to cause shock when hunting animals with sharp field points to kill them faster and more effectively but they may help with weight but i can only put 1 on per arrow.
> Found no sign of a print on my field points they are probably custom made as the shop i got them from are a small business and he made my string,nocks and fletching so maybe he also made the field points?I don't know.Also to people saying how the arrow is not the problem i agree.I obviously need some work however i also see forestgumps point about how fixing my arrows up first will allow me to more effectively practice and know where I am and first things first.
> Also jinkster i dunno if i feel comfortable taking the velcro off or fletching off incase i mess them up really don't want more expense i would want to know how to take the velcro off aswell as i dont know why the velcro is a problem.
> i also dont think i would like to take the fletching off of one of my arrows because i don't know how to put them back on and don't know anyone who does is there any other work around?
> ...


well that explains a lot....tell me...did the same guy who made up your arrows with what appears to be brass glue-in points sell you the adder points?

Maybe I'm jumping the gun here but...Negligent or not?...it kind of pi$$es me off when business men take advantage of a young aspiring archer and his mother. 

Maybe Sid could place "a local call" to this guy and help get this young man squared away? :dontknow:

just say'in.....cause something definitely seems wrong with this picture.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Chances are your arrows are on the stiff side but as others have said they should group just fine. They may not impact straight down your line of sight but they should group. Tip weight with those arrows should also be fine. It's very hard to get a super low FOC on carbons and that is likely the very least of any issues. 

To be perfectly honest if a person can't hold groups at 10 yards it isn't anything related to the arrows or bow, short of some catastrophic structural failure in materials. I've been following this thread for a few days now. I hate to say it but, in my opinion, there's too much of the mental/aiming stuff going on. The issues with an inability to hold groups are normally related to form. For example, if you can shoot arrows from various distances and the main issue is vertical displacement than look into focus and aiming. But, if you can't hold your left/right line than the problem is most likely related to your form.

If you want to diagnose this issue and take aiming out of the equation you should give yourself a hard reference to aim at. Tape a matchstick to the riser to cover the bullseye, stick a colored ball on the ground and hold the tip on it... anything to give you a reference and take the uncertainty of aiming out of the equation. At this point just shoot groups. If you suddenly tighten up and start busting nocks than look into trying other methods of aiming but if you still have grouping issues than its time to go back to basics and work on developing consistency. 

Your form looks alright but look at slowing down and pay attention to details. Archery is a simple thing but to really develop consistency the devil is in the details. 

Also, don't force the release. If you shoot and end up with splayed fingers that are straight you are mentally opening your hand. The best release will have the fingers end up in virtually the same position as the hold.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> well that explains a lot....tell me...did the same guy who made up your arrows with what appears to be brass glue-in points sell you the adder points?
> 
> Maybe I'm jumping the gun here but...Negligent or not?...it kind of pi$$es me off when business men take advantage of a young aspiring archer and his mother.
> 
> ...


No this guy sold me my glove,string and arrows but the adder points where bought in a different all hunting shop which i picked up pretty cheap.Can you explain more whats wrong?


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

ALL my carbon shafts with cracks and pressure dings do NOT get used.

















Just was out and shot these two groups with a bow I just rough tuned. 100g tips showed a little to stiff and 125g tips showed a little to weak. These have 100g tips plus 5g washers. Will be taking these out to 20 yards soon for more testing. Groups were shoot from 12 yards.

I was thinking how I need to work on my release and a solid bow arm. Third point for me is to continue to try and steer the arrows around the 5 point area...at 12 yards. Later will try 20 yards. ;-) It kind of reminds me of steering a planning sailing vessel...it is real easy to over steer!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> No this guy sold me my glove,string and arrows but the adder points where bought in a different all hunting shop which i picked up pretty cheap.Can you explain more whats wrong?



What happened is they sold you perfect target shooting arrows, if in fact you owned a compound bow. The bad part is you don't. After looking at their website I would bet those are 90gr glue in points. I don't understand why they would do such a dumb thing but, it's too late to worry about that. Now you need some 100gr inserts and 100gr screw in points to fix the screw up. They have the screw in points but I didn't see any inserts, doesn't mean they don't have them though.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I was respond to wsewards remark concerning what I'm about to learn.
> 
> But let me suggest an archery related question in place of your auto-mechanics question. It's been several decades since they've built a car that I'd want to work on at all. LOL
> 
> If somebody hasn't learned to shoot a bow yet and is failing to group arrows, would you blame the arrows? I saw the video. I don't think the arrows are the problem. That's not to say that the arrows are presently a good match. Just that I don't think that's "the" problem.



Just a way of saying to fix the obvious first. The arrows are absolutely waaaay too stiff as they are presently set up with no front of center worth mentioning.
As for the last statement, no, not necessarily, assuming I knew that everything else was good. And you may be right, his shooting could be as much a problem but it's hard to work on that with arrows that can't be expected to show any consistency.
Not you particularly MGF but, I'm surprised that some people seem to think that just any old arrow will work just fine. Most people know better than that. I don't believe for a second that those people would accept arrows that were cut too short to begin with and topped off with 90gr target points. Any idiot should have known that was not the correct set up for this young man. Hell, most people can at least read and use a free calculator that would have gotten it close. :jeez:


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> What happened is they sold you perfect target shooting arrows, if in fact you owned a compound bow. The bad part is you don't. After looking at their website I would bet those are 90gr glue in points. I don't understand why they would do such a dumb thing but, it's too late to worry about that. Now you need some 100gr inserts and 100gr screw in points to fix the screw up. They have the screw in points but I didn't see any inserts, doesn't mean they don't have them though.


So i can get some 100gr screw in points and if i can,should i get 75gr worth inserts and use the adder points for extra 25 or go for 100gr inserts only?
i Don't have a problem buying them elsewhere too as long as the shipping isnt too expensive.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

flowarcher said:


> No this guy sold me my glove,string and arrows but the adder points where bought in a different all hunting shop which i picked up pretty cheap.Can you explain more whats wrong?


actually?...



FORESTGUMP said:


> What happened is they sold you perfect target shooting arrows, if in fact you owned a compound bow. The bad part is you don't. After looking at their website I would bet those are 90gr glue in points. I don't understand why they would do such a dumb thing but, it's too late to worry about that. Now you need some 100gr inserts and 100gr screw in points to fix the screw up. They have the screw in points but I didn't see any inserts, doesn't mean they don't have them though.


Forest explained it spot-on right there....and if you were in driving distance of me?...I'd be swinging by to pick up you and your gear and driving over to that shop to have a chat with the cat that sold you those arrows...and when it was over?...he'd be humbled...and you'd have some proper arrows for your bow...or?....I'd probably get arrested or shot if things didn't work out quite so well. :laugh:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Why are people saying these arrows are for compound bows?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> Why are people saying these arrows are for compound bows?


I think only Forest has mentioned that term (although I thought much the same) and I do believe he's using it metaphorically as cut that short with that light of a point?...they'd be more suited for use on a centershot compound...or?...a bow nearly twice the weight of what Flowarcher is shooting here.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

So .600 spine arrows for a 72 pound bow? I don't think so.. you said gump was "spot on"?

I can believe Flowarcher's arrows might be on the stiff side, but they would still group together.

Flowarcher, when it's time for more arrows, leave one or two bare without fletches, and see what's going on before the shafts are cut.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> So .600 spine arrows for a 72 pound bow? I don't think so.. you said gump was "spot on"?
> 
> I can believe Flowarcher's arrows might be on the stiff side, but they would still group together.
> 
> Flowarcher, when it's time for more arrows, leave one or two bare without fletches, and see what's going on before the shafts are cut.


You ask a question...I give my version of a possible explanation....and then you want to argue?...I did say "nearly"...and yes...at 28"s long with a 26" draw?...I bet those arrows just might tune well off a 60lb bow...or thereabouts.

Maybe you missed what it is we're trying to accomplish here...in which case I invite you to go back and watch the vid flowarcher posted of shooting his bow....and turn your speakers on and listen...cause those arrows are whacking his riser so hard and loud at the shot?...I wouldn't rule out the possibility he may induce a crack in one of his shafts....which wouldn't be good.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

I wanted to know why people (you and gump) said these arrows were for compound bows. Bearpaw makes them (or has them made) and sells them, as does KustomKing, for recurves. 

If you're telling us that .600 spine with 90 grain points is suitable for a 60 or 70 pound bow, then yeah, I guess I'd argue over that. I shot similar arrows a couple years ago for field and did ok - the arrows weren't a problem.

I saw the video. Anyone who has tried making a video knows that accurately recording sound is much more difficult than video - my vid's sound like a firecracker but it's not loud in person - but like I already said, I can believe his arrows might be stiff but that's not really a big issue, i.m.o.

I'm surprised nobody said anything about FA's stance - looks to me like all his weight is on the front leg.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> If you're telling us that .600 spine with 90 grain points is suitable for a 60 or 70 pound bow, then yeah, I guess I'd argue over that.


well you'll hafta do that alone then...as at this point?...I seriously doubt you've ever shot a .600 spine arrow *that's only 28"s long with a sub 100gr point*....

as at that length and point weight?...the spine dynamics begin to resemble something closer to a .400 spine arrow...

off a 36# bow w/ a 26" draw?

But I want to thank you...you just gave me a cool project to work on today...as I haven't shot my (1) wheel bow in quite some time. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

No they were 29" with a 65 grain point (+ insert), around 40 pounds. Also much lighter than these 7.2 g.p.i. Pentathalon SL's



> off a 36# bow w/ a 26" draw?


O.P.'s bow is forty# drawn to 26". 

What are the odds the shopkeeper who sold these arrows witnessed Flowarcher coming to a nice full draw in the shop, in a little micro-coaching session, expecting the archer's draw length to grow as most of ours have? Pretty good, I'd say. Certainly no reason for vague internet threats, or torches and pitchforks or whatever was going to land you in the county gaol.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> So i can get some 100gr screw in points and if i can,should i get 75gr worth inserts and use the adder points for extra 25 or go for 100gr inserts only?
> i Don't have a problem buying them elsewhere too as long as the shipping isnt too expensive.



Just throw the adder points in a drawer and forget about them until you are ready to go rabbit hunting, if ever you decide to do that. And don't buy anything just yet. I was just getting a ballpark on the weight needed to tune those arrows, not exact, even though I stand by my position on the issue. No doubt in my mind they will get better and more predictable to shoot. Until that problem is corrected, nothing else matters.
Those are skinny shafts and I could not find the specs so I don't know where to find the inserts. The shop you bought them from might have them but they didn't seem to be on their site. I would call them and ask if they have any 100gr inserts.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Arrowwood said:


> No they were 29" with a 65 grain point (+ insert), around 40 pounds. Also much lighter than these 7.2 g.p.i. Pentathalon SL's
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I can assume that you are a more experienced shooter than the OP. You may know how to design an arrow for a specific purpose and have the skills to soot it. But, that doesn't apply to a new shooter to whom all this stuff is so confusing. It helps to have the most forgiving setup that he can possibly have in order to reduce some of the variables. 

I don't know if the shopkeeper saw him shoot or not but, if he did that's even worse. The knowledge that his draw length would probably grow, possibly even to 28 inches, is more reason to leave the arrow full length, which I think is 30 inches, not totally sure about that. There could have been miscommunication, or someone might have simply made a mistake. It only took me a few seconds to confirm my belief that it was too stiff, I assume anyone building arrows for a beginner could do the same.

I don't see how it's so hard to understand that an arrow needs to be of correct spine and foc, especially for a beginner. I have obviously been mistaken in thinking that such things were basic common knowledge.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Beginners don't shoot well enough to pursue a great tune. All the sarcasm in the world won't change that.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> Beginners don't shoot well enough to pursue a great tune. All the sarcasm in the world won't change that.


which is already strike one going against them...toss in a local professed pro looking to fatten his wallet by taking advantage of a young man and his mother by relieving himself of some dead stock selling him ill matched gear?....and viola...the world receives yet another fine golfer! :laugh:

Of course the hypothetical scenario I described above would never actually happen...right? :dontknow:


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Flowarcher, a 600 spine arrow can be shot from a wide range of bows from the low 30's up into the high 40's. The FOC should be checked. Tip weight matters to the extent that it impacts overall arrow weight and length. If the arrows are very light a 65 grain tip may be ok. See this http://www.goldtip.com/calculatorcontent.aspx?coid=2 for how to see what your FOC actually is. I'd have to say a 600 spine out of a 60 or 70lb bow is asking for trouble though. To add to this. It isn't just the weight of the bow that matters. It's mostly how fast it gets that arrow moving. Acceleration induced paradox is what this is really about. The weight references are a common baseline that usually come close to an average in speed across a wide range of bows.

Check the FOC. If it's in the range of 10 to 15 you're close enough that you can call them correct. If that checks out move on to the next step. Another item to check is the centershot. If it's too far left or right it will give bogus results on what may be perfectly good arrows. Too far on one bow may not be enough on another. It varies a lot. Another good reference is this http://www.texasarchery.org/BoardMembers/RickStonebrakerPages/TuningForTens/TuningForTens.html It covers a lot of the problems in arrow and bow tuning.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

So... an arrow's flight dynamics can change without changing anything?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Just go watch some of the good nasp kiddos on sub 20# bows with 1820 arrows, light points, and short draws, and it will be clear spine is not an issue at this stage for the person.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Too stiff, I actually used the calculator and 200 grains is ballpark. MGF, I have had some experience back in the day with super light points and they seemed to have a mind of their own. Fast but unreliable, as in all over the place. I agree that as a general rule the arrows will group to some extent but, in this case any improvement will help the OP to stay focused. AND, maybe his mom won't put knots on his noggin if he doesn't need new arrows.


So... your arrows with light weight points flew... differently? From arrow to arrow without changing anything and using the same repeated form/release?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Arrowwood said:


> Beginners don't shoot well enough to pursue a great tune. All the sarcasm in the world won't change that.


True, your sarcasm is not helping anything. Actually 'beginners don't shoot well enough to pursue a great tune' is twisting the real situation a bit out of proportion. Nobody has mentioned a 'great tune', just arrows that are close enough to make shooting easier for the OP. 

Arrowwood, I'm not exactly a newbie to all this stuff. I have personally shot arrows bareshaft that are too stiff or weak and watched them make a quick turn before reaching the target as if they had a broadhead on them. Sure, fletching can help that situation but, it's still trying to make that turn and being forced in another direction by the drag influence of the fletching. That's definitely not a desirable situation for anyone.
I've shot arrows with too little foc and observed their unreliability. When I started shooting a target specific compound I wanted the arrow as light and fast as was possible. I had points that I customized to exactly 92gr. to maximize the speed and accuracy. That's splitting hairs but, anything less was unreliable, a mind of it's own, and would not group perfectly. More was obviously unnecessary weight or excess baggage.
But, that's not the case for the OP. He's not shooting target compound, he simply wants to shoot his recurve as well as he can at this point in his archery journey. I'm sure you agree that the equipment needs to work for him instead of against him.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Just go watch some of the good nasp kiddos on sub 20# bows with 1820 arrows, light points, and short draws, and it will be clear spine is not an issue at this stage for the person.


I don't need to look at anything, I have personal experience with it. I can demonstrate the result right now if I so desire. I do know that telling this young man that he doesn't need a properly spined arrow is not helping him. Of course, anything is possible, it's just not feasible in this particular situation. The interesting part is this information is coming from experienced shooters who know better. Does it have something to do with arguing for the sake of arguing?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grapplemonkey said:


> So... your arrows with light weight points flew... differently? From arrow to arrow without changing anything and using the same repeated form/release?


Silly question. You know I never said that. Nobody, including yourself, is capable of perfection in the form and release department. But, maybe you don't understand your physics well enough to know what I'm really talking about. These silly responses only serve to confuse the OP even more at a time when he needs help solving a problem.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> well you'll hafta do that alone then...as at this point?...I seriously doubt you've ever shot a .600 spine arrow *that's only 28"s long with a sub 100gr point*....
> 
> as at that length and point weight?...the spine dynamics begin to resemble something closer to a .400 spine arrow...
> 
> ...


I shoot 27.5" GT 600 with 90gr points from my 35# limbs. Borderline weak unless I'm shooting without the grip which drops me down 1/2" of draw length.

So no, I don't think we are dealing with arrows that are completely unsuitable. Lack of grouping is a form issue.

-Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I shoot 27.5" GT 600 with 90gr points from my 35# limbs. Borderline weak unless I'm shooting without the grip which drops me down 1/2" of draw length.
> 
> So no, I don't think we are dealing with arrows that are completely unsuitable. Lack of grouping is a form issue.
> 
> -Grant


Grant...is that 27 1/2"s your arrow length or draw length....and if it's your DL?...(which I'm assuming it is)....then how long is your arrow?


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Grant...is that 27 1/2"s your arrow length or draw length....and if it's your DL?...(which I'm assuming it is)....then how long is your arrow?


Although my reading comprehension can be lacking at times... grant's post reads like he shoots 27.5" GT 600 arrows with 90gr points. Then he mentions shooting his bow minus the grip which shortens his DL by 1/2". He then finishes off his reply by stating he thinks that the OP has a form issue since he (meaning grant) can still group decently even with the change of a 1/2" in DL while still using the same arrow... the 27.5" GT 600 w/90gr points.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grapplemonkey said:


> Although my reading comprehension can be lacking at times... grant's post reads like he shoots 27.5" GT 600 arrows with 90gr points. Then he mentions shooting his bow minus the grip which shortens his DL by 1/2". He then finishes off his reply by stating he thinks that the OP has a form issue since he (meaning grant) can still group decently even with the change of a 1/2" in DL while still using the same arrow... the 27.5" GT 600 w/90gr points.


Well thanks for clearing that up for me monkey...just figured I'd ask because unless something's changed?...for as far back as I can recall grants been a huge fan of shooting his arrows full length...and 27 1/2"s seems awfully short to me...for an arrow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Grant...is that 27 1/2"s your arrow length or draw length....and if it's your DL?...(which I'm assuming it is)....then how long is your arrow?


Stringwalking set-up with a VERY heavy bow (like 20oz extra on top of a heavy riser), so the arrow has to be MUCH weaker spined then you would normally shoot. DL is ~28.5" with the grip removed, I can draw that arrow off the rest if I am not careful.
Shoots really well and as a matter of fact actually shot better with the 80gr CB points that have a longer shank so these are borderline weak for sure.

I've gotten 30" 600 spine to shoot inline with a 18# Polaris shot off the shelf just using 145gr point. They were way stiff and the trajectory was a rainbow but that didn't matter for the person learning since they hit the target in line.

So I would happen to think that this is a form problem. Probably related to being overbowed and not getting to full expansion.

-Grant

Edit: Arrows are 27" carbon-to-carbon, nock adds 1/4" so really they are 27.25" BOP.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Well thanks for clearing that up for me monkey...just figured I'd ask because unless something's changed?...for as far back as I can recall grants been a huge fan of shooting his arrows full length...and 27 1/2"s seems awfully short to me...for an arrow.


Me having a 25" DL... I can shoot chopsticks.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I don't need to look at anything, I have personal experience with it. I can demonstrate the result right now if I so desire. I do know that telling this young man that he doesn't need a properly spined arrow is not helping him. Of course, anything is possible, it's just not feasible in this particular situation. The interesting part is this information is coming from experienced shooters who know better. Does it have something to do with arguing for the sake of arguing?


Really not arguing at all. He's shooting ~36" pounds on the fingers with a .600 spine arrow cut to 28" and light points by some folks' definition. If he can't get a hint of group with that at 20 yards, I've got a 281 in competition with arrows intentionally shot WAaaY overspined to offer as a beg to differ. Look, who knows what his final tune will require. He ain't even to that determination point yet. Arrows causing his problems now, no way. That's just a rabbit-chase to serve nothing but to further confuse him. I'm working with someone new about every day of the week and Saturdays. They ALL have ill-tuned arrows to begin with. Some, ridiculously off. It's never went to their ability to learn to group some arrows - that rabbit chase don't compute in practicality.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Stringwalking set-up with a VERY heavy bow (like 20oz extra on top of a heavy riser), so the arrow has to be MUCH weaker spined then you would normally shoot. DL is ~28.5" with the grip removed, I can draw that arrow off the rest if I am not careful.
> Shoots really well and as a matter of fact actually shot better with the 80gr CB points that have a longer shank so these are borderline weak for sure.
> 
> I've gotten 30" 600 spine to shoot inline with a 18# Polaris shot off the shelf just using 145gr point. They were way stiff and the trajectory was a rainbow but that didn't matter for the person learning since they hit the target in line.
> ...


yeah...well?...in all honesty?...as per usual?...I wasn't expecting anything less than a contrary as possible answer...should've known better than to ask. 

btw...are you the same grantmac that when I was setting up my 30# excel recommended the 20/30 .710spine super clubs and then about flipped out when I mentioned cutting them down from full length?...cause here's how they shot....










and then there was the time you recommended .820 spine super club 15/25's for my PSE Zone w/ 26# Samick Universal limbs and here's how they shot...










and more recently?...(since you guided me so well in the past with these light-weight bows)....you recommended I try some Victory VAP V6's...for my 30# Bear Polar....you wanted me to get .900's but they weren't in stock...so I got the .800 spine V6's...left them full length and went with 120gr glue-ins....and here's how they shot...






and you freaked figuring these .800's would be far too stiff! :laugh:

and here this young man is drawing close too 2"s less than I....w/ 90gr points in a 28" long .600 spine arrow shot off a 40# @ 28" sage (that probably still has the factory string no doubt)...holding 36#s at his 26" DL and this is fine?...meanwhile his bow sounds like Mickey Mantle smacked one out of the park with each and every shot? :dontknow:

funny how some folks "tune" changes when they are trying to make a point. :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I didn't read where anybody said the arrows were "fine". It's just that a whole bunch of us seem to think they will still group.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Ok, for those of you who now, suddenly are promoting the idea that arrow compatibility to the bow is unimportant, what exactly do you have to offer? We all know, the OP included, that he's a new shooter and not perfect like you guys are. While I believe that some form issues are important, he is not too bad in that department. He's already been told that a short hold at anchor would be advisable, slow it down some. So what else about his form is sooooo bad? Is he not holding his mouth right?
Well hero's, I have a news flash for you. I can shoot an arrow that's properly tuned without even coming anywhere near to normal anchor, quite accurately. I don't have to worry if my feet are positioned like some book might say they need to be. That's just a couple of minor points but, your 'form issue' sermon doesn't impress me much. While I do understand that perfection of a shooters form has it's place, I also know that it's possible to shoot arrows from a bow without much attention to the details. If you don't believe me ,then maybe you should pay closer attention to the 'first shot' threads.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I didn't read where anybody said the arrows were "fine". It's just that a whole bunch of us seem to think they will still group.



Saying that the arrows are fine seems to be written between the lines. So what exactly is being said if that's not it? I know for a fact that arrows with insufficient foc can be quite unruly. I am not going to take the time to try and explain the physics involved for intelligent humans. I know it from experience. I will pose a question, if you take a carbon arrow shaft and plug the front end with dirt, will it still be fine? Or maybe just use a piece of wood glued in or a screw, anything, it doesn't matter anyway. If that's the case why are there so many different point weights available? And weights to screw into the insert or numerous other systems to increase foc for tuning purposes. Such a waste of time, all that matters is that you make sure you hold your mouth right and it will shoot perfect groups.:bs:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> yeah...well?...in all honesty?...as per usual?...I wasn't expecting anything less than a contrary as possible answer...should've known better than to ask.
> 
> btw...are you the same grantmac that when I was setting up my 30# excel recommended the 20/30 .710spine super clubs and then about flipped out when I mentioned cutting them down from full length?...cause here's how they shot....
> 
> ...



Jinks, I suppose you know the story about wrestling with a pig in a mud hole. You just get all dirty and the pig actually enjoys it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

A new archer doesn't need to have perfectly tuned arrows BUT they should be at least somewhere close.

I can't stand the sound of a poorly tuned arrow smacking a riser or seeing an arrow kick side to side violently as it flies toward the target.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I think the point both Forest and I were trying to make is this...

This young man was just catching on to instinctive/snap and wanting to do some form work....and yes...If he were just pounding arrows at one given distance?...I guess it would be no big deal that his arrows are smacking the pi$$ out of his riser...and yes...even mud will group consistently if thrown consistently at the exact same target from the same exact distance wit the exact same force...but such is not the case where he is roving for rabbits and not understanding why he just can't get his instinctive on....and many here might throw up a little in their mouth when I cite the following but swallow hard cause here goes...

There's no way he' going to be able to achieve his stated goal of intuitively snapping rabbits on the run from a variety of unknown, yet close-up distances, with a bow that's so ill tuned it's scattering arrows like a shotgun from yard too yard....but yes...if he stands in one exact spot....and executes (whatever) form consistently...then yes...even crap will group at the bottom of a toilet bowl. :laugh:

outside of that?...his arrows are so stiff?....it sounds like they're chopping his riser in half.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> yeah...well?...in all honesty?...as per usual?...I wasn't expecting anything less than a contrary as possible answer...should've known better than to ask.
> 
> btw...are you the same grantmac that when I was setting up my 30# excel recommended the 20/30 .710spine super clubs and then about flipped out when I mentioned cutting them down from full length?...cause here's how they shot....
> 
> ...


Tsk Tsk.... :laugh:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

MGF said:


> I didn't read where anybody said the arrows were "fine". It's just that a whole bunch of us seem to think they will still group.


This.

The arrows is the least of his worries at his stage. New equipment won't help him.... unless he's using arrows that somehow can change direction at will. Put that bow in a Hooter and loose those arrows from it and it will group.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grapplemonkey said:


> This.
> 
> The arrows is the least of his worries at his stage. New equipment won't help him.... unless he's using arrows that somehow can change direction at will. Put that bow in a Hooter and loose those arrows from it and it will group.



Just thought I would help you out with that. The OP is not a 'hooter'. 
Oh, btw do you have anything constructive to offer? What do you suggest? Oh yea, hold your mouth right, and be sure your feet are in the right place. hahahaha.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grapplemonkey said:


> This.
> 
> The arrows is the least of his worries at his stage. New equipment won't help him.... unless he's using arrows that somehow can change direction at will. Put that bow in a Hooter and loose those arrows from it and it will group.


Yes! As mentioned before, put the even stiffer spine Genesis 1820 arrow with a 60gr head in hands of a well trained kid in NASP archery on only 20#, and they will group fine enough for government work. That's not discounting against the person using these .600 spine arrows, but let's get things in perspective. 

Erratic arrows a done at the shooter, not the arrow. A piece of rebar will group if the person can shoot.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Just thought I would help you out with that. The OP is not a 'hooter'.
> Oh, btw do you have anything constructive to offer? What do you suggest? Oh yea, hold your mouth right, and be sure your feet are in the right place. hahahaha.


You feel better now?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grapplemonkey said:


> You feel better now?



How I feel is irrelevant, what I'm waiting for is something useful to the OP besides, 'you ain't doing it right'.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Yes! As mentioned before, put the even stiffer spine Genesis 1820 arrow with a 60gr head in hands of a well trained kid in NASP archery on only 20#, and they will group fine enough for government work. That's not discounting against the person using these .600 spine arrows, but let's get things in perspective.
> 
> Erratic arrows a done at the shooter, not the arrow. A piece of rebar will group if the person can shoot.



So, if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that no weight at all on the front of the arrow is just fine if the person knows how to shoot. Or, that any old arrow is fine, not to worry about all that spine stuff or tuning.

The problem with that theory is that it's just not true. The bigger problem is that the people promoting this silly concept are usually all about correct spine and tuning, so what gives? Seems like Jinks got it right, make it up as ya go to suit whatever argument you are making at the time. Is that possibly thread jacking? Oh, I understand though, it's the same crew that hijacks every thread where the word instinctive is mentioned. Sad for the people such as the OP who is already confused about traditional archery.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Aiming has nothing to do with it. The kid needs some semblance of form before he needs to worry about tuning. 

All arrows are going to be erratic if your form is in flux.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

Hmm...this is pretty much the first thread I've seen where someone seeking advice is told that tuned arrows don't matter very much.

I wouldn't recommend learning with the arrows I had 10 years ago. They were all old of various lengths, weights, quality, and fletching. I was a broke kid so that was all I had. However I just loved shooting the bow and arrow so I learned how to shoot each arrow based off of how crappy I knew each one to fly. Getting in the ballpark on what your appropriate arrow should be like is the first move to make if you want to prevent some of the tedium of learning to shoot. It's surprising to see people stating the contrary.

Ok I'll leave it at that, I've been making an effort to stay away from this thread. Good luck OP.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

I have a selection of arrows for shooting. Group shooting, that is 4 different lengths of six arrows at 600 spine, 4 different lengths of six at 500 spine and 4 different lengths of 6 at 400 spine. And have a dozen experimental tips of every weight from 55 gr to 250 grains. And every combination will produce 6 inch groups at 15 yards. That is not good shooting, but on one hand my point being that the correct arrow combination will help this young man, but it is likely not the entire problem. Yes, it will help, but I think we must be missing something................. thinking. Maybe not. Or maybe. The mind of the instinctive shooter calibrates how to hold based on previous shots. If you keep hitting low, it will raise the bow arm..... but if your not grouping at all, your mind has no way of knowing which way to adapt. Like sighting in a rifle scope. Until your grouping, you don't know which way to adjust the scope. Your just chasing the last bullet hole. So... it is possible that "a" issue, rather than a combination of issues, like I was thinking at the beginning of this post, is causing these bad groups. Flow, we are trying, good luck. It's up to you to sort through all the ideas and decide which is likely the problem.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Novel idea... that whole needing repeatable for thing, lol.

OP... Matt gave you two great tools in the links to Arne and Jimmy's videos. Use them and absorb everything they offer. You need to commit. When I first wanted to REALLY get better I was offered the advice of blank bale work... not the funnest of exercises but I'd be lying if I said it didn't work. Having to go back to the bale every time I let a bad shot go when shooting seemed too much like work in the beginning... but it paid off. I'm not near as good as most of the guys posting here but I'm leaps and bounds from where I started. You gotta put in the work and you need to be honest.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Arrowzen said:


> Hmm...this is pretty much the first thread I've seen where someone seeking advice is told that tuned arrows don't matter very much.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend learning with the arrows I had 10 years ago. They were all old of various lengths, weights, quality, and fletching. I was a broke kid so that was all I had. However I just loved shooting the bow and arrow so I learned how to shoot each arrow based off of how crappy I knew each one to fly. Getting in the ballpark on what your appropriate arrow should be like is the first move to make if you want to prevent some of the tedium of learning to shoot. It's surprising to see people stating the contrary.
> 
> Ok I'll leave it at that, I've been making an effort to stay away from this thread. Good luck OP.


Poor comparison. I'd reread the thread to see what most of us are implying.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

grapplemonkey said:


> Poor comparison. I'd reread the thread to see what most of us are implying.


I didn't quote anybody. I'm just referring to the 10 pages of near conflicting suggestions. Plenty of other threads people have asked for baseline equipment, where a well rounded set of numbers are usually given, and then end of story. This is a lot of debate for a new shooter to take in with limited resources. Based off of the new shooter part and limited resources parts I felt it was a good comparison since I've been there myself.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Aiming has nothing to do with it. The kid needs some semblance of form before he needs to worry about tuning.
> 
> All arrows are going to be erratic if your form is in flux.


That I can swallow, he's already been told that he needs to slow it down some. Other than that, what did you see wrong with his form?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

flowarcher,

Here's the straight forward.

Your main GOAL in most cases should be to develop some resemblance of CONSISTENT form. You can do this by shooting at a Blank Bale until it feels pretty natural and repetitive. Best case scenario is to have a good coach or mentor help you with your form.

Your form should be based on your GOALS.

If you strive to be a competitive target archer...your form may vary from someone who wants to primarily bowhunt big game and small game or you could be an archer like myself who likes to do both target and bowhunt.

Research the archers that fit the style that best suits your GOALS.

Work on aiming AFTER you've developed some decent CONSISTENCY with your form. Your form doesn't need to be perfect...but it should be somewhat repeatable.

Based on what you've shared with us...if you can buy weaker spined arrows...DO IT! 

It's not a necessity to have tuned arrows to work on form.

It's not a necessity to have tuned arrows to work on accuracy at close distance unless you're looking to split arrows...BUT...using tuned arrows or arrows that are more in tune are more forgiving of shooter error.

Arrows so stiff that bang against your riser are annoying and can definitely hinder accuracy. Exactly how much is debatable.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> flowarcher,
> 
> Here's the straight forward.
> 
> ...



Very well stated, good substance, and informative.:thumbs_up Cept the weaker spined arrows as they are fixable.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

flowarcher said:


> Sorry this so short my battery died pretty much straight away didn't notice my charger wasn't fully plugged in so this is all i got but this was probably my worst group ive ever done so im glad i got it on camera.I wasnt focusing on form when i did this either


Just wondering, Could it be..... that you are a left hand shooter, right eye dominate?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 1, 2013)

Matt had a point about string grip. If you shoot a deep grip, you need a relaxed hand, your structure holding the string rather than your hand strength. With this theory, the string pushes the limp fingers out of the way. If your hand has tension on it then it is hard to get an acceptable release with that deep grip. So, deep grip, relaxed hand. I shoot tips of my fingers with hand strength/tension, not relaxed. To each his own


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Arrowzen said:


> I didn't quote anybody. I'm just referring to the 10 pages of near conflicting suggestions. Plenty of other threads people have asked for baseline equipment, where a well rounded set of numbers are usually given, and then end of story. This is a lot of debate for a new shooter to take in with limited resources. Based off of the new shooter part and limited resources parts I felt it was a good comparison since I've been there myself.


The fact that he can learn to hit the same spot with his gear (arrows of same build) once he learns proper form differs from how you could not do (or as easily) so with needing to use different length/weight arrows... that makes me feel you were in a different boat... hope that makes sense.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Arrowzen said:


> Hmm...this is pretty much the first thread I've seen where someone seeking advice is told that tuned arrows don't matter very much.


Since I have been a member here, the standard advice has always been almost unanimous. As long as your arrows are not coming out sideways and have decent flight (not porpoising or fishtailing real bad), you are good as gold in the beginning stage. If you think about it, in the past, our predecessors called such method a tuned arrow - one that flies well by sight. 

Yes, it's done even better now that we know and measure spine and weight more precisely and bareshaft, but, that's nothing more than to get even better efficiency out of our arrow flight. In no way is that a prerequisite to one's learning to put an arrow in a relative grouping, which "is" a prerequisite to even knowing how to gauge a more precise tune.

If the OP was grossly out of spec on spine, maybe a new set of arrows is in order. His arrows are not in that category if they fly OK by his sighting. Later, they may or may not be his perfect spine to shoot. This whole discussion took an unnecessary derail because someone heard a noise. From there, it morphed into him having grossly out of spec arrows, which he doesn't.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The OP said he couldn't afford new arrows, I don't think it's necessary that he needs to make it a priority. What he has will work once he regains the 1-1.5" or so of DL which he seems to be giving-up in the video.
If he had the resources I'd definitely recommend something else but lets be honest here: when I was his age I shot wood arrows full length, once they broke I chopped them off to the next length which they all could muster and carried on until they fell off the shelf. Then I'd buy as many more as I could afford. With 4" feathers almost anything will fly inline out past 30yds.

I've been playing with a bow in my yard the last few days which is <30# at my DL with a 12" stab using the same arrows as my 36# unstabilized bow. They might fly funny but that doesn't make 10" groups at 30yds a problem.

If he's still having problems once the form gets sorted out then we can get something better figured out.

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I think some of you who can shoot, especially those of you who teach archery, should try to review the OP's video with him. Those collapsing hunched up shoulders and bent up torso aren't going to get straightened out by "magic", getting in "zones" or buying more equipment.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> The OP said he couldn't afford new arrows, I don't think it's necessary that he needs to make it a priority. What he has will work once he regains the 1-1.5" or so of DL which he seems to be giving-up in the video.
> If he had the resources I'd definitely recommend something else but lets be honest here: when I was his age I shot wood arrows full length, once they broke I chopped them off to the next length which they all could muster and carried on until they fell off the shelf. Then I'd buy as many more as I could afford. With 4" feathers almost anything will fly inline out past 30yds.
> 
> I've been playing with a bow in my yard the last few days which is <30# at my DL with a 12" stab using the same arrows as my 36# unstabilized bow. They might fly funny but that doesn't make 10" groups at 30yds a problem.
> ...


Yes but Grant...you have one huge advantage he probably doesn't...."Turbonocks" :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

35 pound PSE Razorback shooting 29" 2016 (.500 spine?) and 125 grain point. I'm a little guy and only draw about 27 inches.

I took a few shots to get used to the bow (it's my wife's bow) and then shot three arrows from ten yards. I was shooting at the top of that little stick. I forgot to measure the size of the group but it's probably less than an inch with two of the shafts just about touching.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*I found an interesting thread elsewhere...*

as it pertains too this level of spine, point weight and poundage...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2240376

Hope this helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It doesn't pertain. The issue is that he isn't shooting a group at all. Nobody said that the arrows might not be too stiff. I just shot a group with arrows that are way too stiff for the bow I was shooting. Shooting bare shafts would demonstrate that spectacularly but I cheated and used fletching. 

You want to bet that I can shoot a similar group even if I go to a .400 spine arrow? I think I have some 29" 2117 around here someplace. Those are left over from my compound days. My compound was set somewhere around 70 pounds but I'll bet I can group them off my wife's 35 pound recurve.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

29" 2117 (.400 spine) with 125 gr points off the same 35 pound recurve from 10 yards. I was shooting at the top of the same stick. The group is a little bigger than the last one but I'm not a very good shot. Those were the first three arrows off the bow...no warm up or checking gaps.










I'd be happy to try it with something stiffer but that's the stiffest I have...unless I go out back and cut down some tree trunks or something.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey I have a 15 pound recurve that my kids shot when they were little. I don't think I've ever shot that bow before but, as long as we're proving points here, should I go group some .400 spine arrows with it?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> It doesn't pertain. The issue is that he isn't shooting a group at all. Nobody said that the arrows might not be too stiff. I just shot a group with arrows that are way too stiff for the bow I was shooting. Shooting bare shafts would demonstrate that spectacularly but I cheated and used fletching.
> 
> You want to bet that I can shoot a similar group even if I go to a .400 spine arrow? I think I have some 29" 2117 around here someplace. Those are left over from my compound days. My compound was set somewhere around 70 pounds but I'll bet I can group them off my wife's 35 pound recurve.


Well that's one mans thought...but I think it most certainly pertains....as I'm not really in this to win a war of words regarding other folks thoughts regarding arrow spine...I'm in it because I can so relate to the look of disgust that young man glared into the camera (at the end there) after spraying his four arrows all over the place...does his form need work?...absolutely...(who's doesn't?)...can we help him with that?....absolutely....but what we can not do is contain his level of disgust...especially if he follows everyone's form advice to a "T" yet his extremely ill tuned rig is sending arrows into Wyoming while he's looking to hit Utah.

So in short?...first things first....because if this young man does work hard to put into practice the endless form advice from numerous others being given him here yet see's no improvement in end results doing so?....he will walk away...and it won't be because he failed....it will be because we failed him....allowing him to become completely discouraged...seeing no positive results for his hard work....with a grossly miss-tuned rig....and who could blame him if he does?

Meanwhile?...every Tom, Dick and Harry will try to prove how much they know and how "THEY" can shoot over-spined arrows off the rigs they've been yanking back for years with no problems?....is that a smart thing to do in this situation he's got going on here?

Go back and watch the look on that young mans face after shooting his last arrow...then ask yourself....should he have at least a bow that's within reasonable tuning parameters before he proceeds to take and work on anyone's form advice being given here?

Then ask yourself....who are you serving?....this young man?....or?.....


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Well that's one mans thought...but I think it most certainly pertains....as I'm not really in this to win a war of words regarding other folks thoughts regarding arrow spine...I'm in it because I can so relate to the look of disgust that young man glared into the camera (at the end there) after spraying his four arrows all over the place...does his form need work?...absolutely...(who's doesn't?)...can we help him with that?....absolutely....but what we can not do is contain his level of disgust...especially if he follows everyone's form advice to a "T" yet his extremely ill tuned rig is sending arrows into Wyoming while he's looking to hit Utah.
> 
> So in short?...first things first....because if this young man does work hard to put into practice the endless form advice from numerous others being given him here yet see's no improvement in end results doing so?....he will walk away...and it won't be because he failed....it will be because we failed him....allowing him to become completely discouraged...seeing no positive results for his hard work....with a grossly miss-tuned rig....and who could blame him if he does?
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? It has nothing to do what I think. Today was the first time in my life that I ever shot a .400 spine arrow from my wife's 35 pound bow and I've only shot a handful of arrows off that piece of junk bow since she bought it. I have NOT been yanking that rig back for years.

What's going to get him to walk away is putting his focus in the wrong place...one that his parents may not be willing to pay for. IF this young man does work hard at taking the form advice that he might receive here, he WILL see improvement. 

Who am I serving? Wow!...is all I'm going to say in public.

The bottom line is that the arrows are not his problem. His "ill-tuned rig" is NOT sending arrows to Wyoming.


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

What's going to get him to walk away is a bunch of adults bickering over semantics instead of encouraging the young man to enjoy a hobby we all love.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Then ask yourself....who are you serving?....this young man?....or?.....


lol... you do know that you should ask yourself the same question right? Anyone worth their salt here could easily group using the OP's equipment while drawing to the OP's draw length. I know I could. And if you know that you could do it to jink's then you'd understand the emphasis of needing to put the cart before the horse. Out of everything that the OP could do to immediately improve his shooting what would it be? Core freaking archery mang!


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

I always liked this site... http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/FAQs/FAQs.html... you can use everything or adjust accordingly if you shoot a different release style or anchor point... the mechanics pretty much stay the same.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

irishhacker said:


> What's going to get him to walk away is a bunch of adults bickering over semantics instead of encouraging the young man to enjoy a hobby we all love.


semantics? you really calling form semantics?


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

The way it has been discussed in this thread, yes


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

so Forest...how much were the heavier points and inserts for this young mans arrows?...a few bucks?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Root recurve marked 15# @ 28" (I'm drawing less than 15 pounds at my 27 inches) shooting the same 29" 2117 (.400 spine) arrows from 10 yards. I wouldn't swear to it but I don't remember EVER having shot this bow before and, certainly, I would have never used .400 spine arrows. Oh, I didn't even buy this bow. Somebody gave it to me for my kids many years ago. I even gave it away to my father-in-law when he wanted a bow to hang on his wall for decoration. He gave it back when he moved into a motor home and went on the road. LOL










The thing is guys...you have to get in the zone...you have to burn a hole in the spot...you have to let the magic happen.

LOL or you can just get your shoulders lined up and relax your string fingers without collapsing anyplace.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> as it pertains too this level of spine, point weight and poundage...
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2240376
> 
> Hope this helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:



Well Bill, I guess I could say close but no cigar. You still made a group with the compound, I wonder what would happen shooting them from the Bear. I still believe you were right about the arrows kicking off the bow and it's not likely that they will bounce with any consistency. That's one strike against them.
The other, and my original idea even though I failed to make it clear, is not specifically about the spine. More about foc and the unreliability that I have seen from arrows with too little foc. Some people think that 10% is enough and in some cases it may be true. It's been a long time since I had this experience ( compound bow) so I don't remember the exact numbers but, I found that there was a definite threshold of reliable accuracy. I was really shooting for the lightest, fastest arrow that I could get away with. Now, it did not take a rocket scientist to see that 80gr points were not performing properly (buckshot effect)while 100gr would get the job done nicely, but I was looking for speed and splitting hairs. I ended up adding weight to the 80gr points until they performed like I wanted. That was 92gr. Normally that 8gr difference wouldn't matter at all and I wouldn't give it a second thought. But, I simply wanted the maximum speed and flattest trajectory that I could possibly get.
I think that everyone here knows that a higher foc contributes to the overall forgiveness and reliability of an arrow shot from trad equipment. Somewhere between 10% and 25% is an optimal foc for each different setup. I personally prefer about 17%, everyone has their personal opinion on that but, too much on either side of those parameters is a point of diminishing return in some way. I think everyone understands what happens when you get too much of a good thing when it comes to point weight. But, there seems to be less understanding in the case of too little. I know, and thought it was common knowledge, that there's also a threshold on the low side. I asked several question of people who should understand more about it than I do and they failed to answer. I can only assume that is because they don't know but, I presented extreme enough examples that most people should be able to recognize the obvious.
A carbon arrow with big feathers on the back end and NO weight on the front end won't fly properly and none of these people can shoot any kind of group with it at 20yds. You will get the buckshot effect. Start adding weight up front and at some point it will become stable enough to group arrows together. Where is the threshold? It's different for each setup. Where is the threshold for the arrows being discussed in this thread, who knows? There is a way to find out though. I'll state the obvious, add the proper amount of weight and kill two birds with one rock, the foc issue and the arrows bouncing off the riser issue. THEN, the OP can start paying more attention to 'holding his mouth right'. Won't do him any good with arrows bouncing all over the place.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grapplemonkey said:


> semantics? you really calling form semantics?



That question reveals your comprehension abilities so we can now assume it applies to other things as well. The man NEVER said anything near what you have implied. And, he's right, it seems the OP has already abandoned this hijacked thread and possibly the forum. Feel better now?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Well Bill, I guess I could say close but no cigar. You still made a group with the compound, I wonder what would happen shooting them from the Bear. I still believe you were right about the arrows kicking off the bow and it's not likely that they will bounce with any consistency. That's one strike against them.
> The other, and my original idea even though I failed to make it clear, is not specifically about the spine. More about foc and the unreliability that I have seen from arrows with too little foc. Some people think that 10% is enough and in some cases it may be true. It's been a long time since I had this experience ( compound bow) so I don't remember the exact numbers but, I found that there was a definite threshold of reliable accuracy. I was really shooting for the lightest, fastest arrow that I could get away with. Now, it did not take a rocket scientist to see that 80gr points were not performing properly (buckshot effect)while 100gr would get the job done nicely, but I was looking for speed and splitting hairs. I ended up adding weight to the 80gr points until they performed like I wanted. That was 92gr. Normally that 8gr difference wouldn't matter at all and I wouldn't give it a second thought. But, I simply wanted the maximum speed and flattest trajectory that I could possibly get.
> I think that everyone here knows that a higher foc contributes to the overall forgiveness and reliability of an arrow shot from trad equipment. Somewhere between 10% and 25% is an optimal foc for each different setup. I personally prefer about 17%, everyone has their personal opinion on that but, too much on either side of those parameters is a point of diminishing return in some way. I think everyone understands what happens when you get too much of a good thing when it comes to point weight. But, there seems to be less understanding in the case of too little. I know, and thought it was common knowledge, that there's also a threshold on the low side. I asked several question of people who should understand more about it than I do and they failed to answer. I can only assume that is because they don't know but, I presented extreme enough examples that most people should be able to recognize the obvious.
> A carbon arrow with big feathers on the back end and NO weight on the front end won't fly properly and none of these people can shoot any kind of group with it at 20yds. You will get the buckshot effect. Start adding weight up front and at some point it will become stable enough to group arrows together. Where is the threshold? It's different for each setup. Where is the threshold for the arrows being discussed in this thread, who knows? There is a way to find out though. I'll state the obvious, add the proper amount of weight and kill two birds with one rock, the foc issue and the arrows bouncing off the riser issue. THEN, the OP can start paying more attention to 'holding his mouth right'. Won't do him any good with arrows bouncing all over the place.


I don't know why you would say no cigar Forest...all I can figure is we're looking at it from opposite ends of the spectrum but when we meet in the middle we agree....as I figure this young mans efforts is at least worth a few bucks worth of heavier points/inserts to get his rig in the ballpark.

That said?...I couldn't agree more bout the FOC thing....I'm shooting 29" long .400 spine GT5575's with 250gr points off my 44# herters and to date?...is the most forgiving and well tuned instinctive/snap rig I ever wrapped my bow hand around.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> so Forest...how much were the heavier points and inserts for this young mans arrows?...a few bucks?



I don't know Jinks, I didn't find the specs for those shafts so I didn't bother to look at LAS. Probably not very much, maybe ten bucks? :wink:

Oh btw, no cigar because you still made a group, not perfect but, a group.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> Root recurve marked 15# @ 28" (I'm drawing less than 15 pounds at my 27 inches) shooting the same 29" 2117 (.400 spine) arrows from 10 yards. I wouldn't swear to it but I don't remember EVER having shot this bow before and, certainly, I would have never used .400 spine arrows. Oh, I didn't even buy this bow. Somebody gave it to me for my kids many years ago. I even gave it away to my father-in-law when he wanted a bow to hang on his wall for decoration. He gave it back when he moved into a motor home and went on the road. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually MGF, I can break all the form rules AND snap shoot (with a properly built arrow) and shoot the pattern you are showing, so your point is kinda mute.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> so Forest...how much were the heavier points and inserts for this young mans arrows?...a few bucks?


A few bucks can be a lot to somebody with no income. LOL, I know. However, all it takes to improve your own skill is time and some work...no government currency required.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> as it pertains too this level of spine, point weight and poundage...
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2240376
> 
> Hope this helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


Thank you... this video of your unmatched arrows proves our point about form... because even though they weren't spined correctly they grouped fairly well.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> That question reveals your comprehension abilities so we can now assume it applies to other things as well. The man NEVER said anything near what you have implied. And, he's right, it seems the OP has already abandoned this hijacked thread and possibly the forum. Feel better now?


Check thyself before thou dost recketh thyself.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Actually MGF, I can break all the form rules AND snap shoot (with a properly built arrow) and shoot the pattern you are showing, so your point is kinda mute.


My point is that the arrows aren't the problem. Why would you say that's a moot point?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I don't know Jinks, I didn't find the specs for those shafts so I didn't bother to look at LAS. Probably not very much, maybe ten bucks? :wink:
> 
> Oh btw, no cigar because you still made a group, not perfect but, a group.


Yes...and all shot from the same distance at the same...well?...area...but my point was...these arrows are weaker spined than the OP's...slightly longer than the OP's...with a bit more point weight than the OP's...and being shot effectively off a far more powerful bow.

and yes...as experienced archers "WE" can manage to adapt shooting styles and forms to effectively circumvent an ill-tuned rig...but this is a young man just getting his quiver on.


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## fieldnfeathers (Nov 7, 2013)

To the OP......I was in your same position around 6 years ago. I had been archery hunting with various fully equiped compounds for over 20 years, and had very good success in hunting and shooting. The problem was that I had lost my passion and/or desire for archery.....which was very hard for me to take considering my passion for archery for so many years.

Out of pure luck, I decided to try "traditional" archery. One reason was for the challenge of it. The other reason was that I wanted to harvest an animal with my father's old Bear Kodiak recurve. In the end, I am so thankful that I did, and very much wish that I would have done it sooner.

Much like you, I started this "journey" wanting to shoot instinctively, and struggled tremendously. My form was fine, although much better now, and my equipment was properly set up. I was feeling a bit overbowed, which I was for practicing, as the Bear was 55#. My form was repeatable, but my groups were not getting any better. Having shot bows well for so long, I knew I was doing something wrong and there just had to be a better way.

The next step I took was purchasing a light weight ILF recurve to allow easier practice sessions. It helped to increase my practice time, but didn't really tighten up my groups much. I felt like i was just guessing on where to shoot. I made some good shots now and then, but nothing was clicking in my mind to say....That is what you need to do. I remained frustrated and knew there still must be a better way.

The next step I took was instrumental in getting me where I am today with my shooting accuracy. I had thought about giving up and just using a damn sight, but couldn't bring myself to do so. That never was on my goal list. So, I used the next best thing....the arrow point. I immediately figured out what point on distance was. I literally was aiming my point at the bottom of my target, and absolutely stacking my arrows on top of each other...just quite a bit high. I'm sure the smile on my face was epic, and much akin to Christmas morning as a child.

My arrow point aiming technique developed further into pick a point style aiming, and my groups were now getting even better at any yardage as I had practiced for hours. It was now to the point of consistency, and when I missed the bullseye I actually felt and knew why. Ultimately, this repetition had also increased target acquisition speed. The amazing part of all this practicing happened when I decided to consciously disregard my arrow point and focus on the target, letting my peripheral vision take over on where the arrow was in relation to my previous pick a point technique. My mind had seen these "gaps" over, and over, and over again. 

It was at that point that I realized that whatever I was doing was working well. Accuracy was good. Was it instinctive? Heck, maybe to someone, but at that point I didn't care. I try to shoot daily when I can. I have since moved on to stringwalking. I'm even more accurate with it, and it suits my current goals, abilities, and personality...LOL! I'm a hunter first.

Sorry for being long winded. Good luck and have fun. Do what puts a smile on your face and tension on the string.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Yes...and all shot from the same distance at the same...well?...area...but my point was...these arrows are weaker spined than the OP's...slightly longer than the OP's...with a bit more point weight than the OP's...and being shot effectively off a far more powerful bow.
> 
> and yes...as experienced archers "WE" can manage to adapt shooting styles and forms to effectively circumvent an ill-tuned rig...but this is a young man just getting his quiver on.


Respectfully Bil... we are trying to give flowarcher what he needs to become an experienced archer. You didn't adapt to the bow in your video... you're that good of a shot... not trying to fluff you up just stating the obvious. Anyone who has decent form can do what you did in that video... but the OP cannot because he has not developed that part of his game yet. He needs to get that part down before anything else... and he can do so with what he has currently.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

fieldnfeathers said:


> To the OP......I was in your same position around 6 years ago. I had been archery hunting with various fully equiped compounds for over 20 years, and had very good success in hunting and shooting. The problem was that I had lost my passion and/or desire for archery.....which was very hard for me to take considering my passion for archery for so many years.
> 
> Out of pure luck, I decided to try "traditional" archery. One reason was for the challenge of it. The other reason was that I wanted to harvest an animal with my father's old Bear Kodiak recurve. In the end, I am so thankful that I did, and very much wish that I would have done it sooner.
> 
> ...


Don't be sorry... this is a very good read. Glad you got things working for you.
:thumbs_up


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Yes...and all shot from the same distance at the same...well?...area...but my point was...these arrows are weaker spined than the OP's...slightly longer than the OP's...with a bit more point weight than the OP's...and being shot effectively off a far more powerful bow.
> 
> and yes...as experienced archers "WE" can manage to adapt shooting styles and forms to effectively circumvent an ill-tuned rig...but this is a young man just getting his quiver on.


I didn't adapt anything. I grabbed a couple of bows that I never shoot and arrows that I never shoot and just shot them.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> My point is that the arrows aren't the problem. Why would you say that's a moot point?



LOL, now it is getting a bit funny. Of course you have proved that a stiff arrow can be made to group. Got that. Your point is moot because that's not the point at all. 
Your main point is about form and I said I can replicate your example by breaking all form rules. How hard is that too understand? I can't simplify it anymore.
I have said all along that while the OPs form may not be perfect and that he should slow his shot process down to match his level of experience, he also needs to remove a variable and add some point weight. The extra weight,,,Oh well, talking to walls here.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, now it is getting a bit funny. Of course you have proved that a stiff arrow can be made to group. Got that. Your point is moot because that's not the point at all.
> Your main point is about form and I said I can replicate your example by breaking all form rules. How hard is that too understand? I can't simplify it anymore.
> I have said all along that while the OPs form may not be perfect and that he should slow his shot process down to match his level of experience, he also needs to remove a variable and add some point weight. The extra weight,,,Oh well, talking to walls here.


Variable

1. an element, feature, or factor that is liable to vary or change.

How the heck is an arrow a variable? Unless it changes from shot to shot. The bow is more of a variable... the archer the biggest. Heck maybe we should try to get the world to stop spinning and take out that variable! j/k


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, now it is getting a bit funny. Of course you have proved that a stiff arrow can be made to group. Got that. Your point is moot because that's not the point at all.
> Your main point is about form and I said I can replicate your example by breaking all form rules. How hard is that too understand? I can't simplify it anymore.
> I have said all along that while the OPs form may not be perfect and that he should slow his shot process down to match his level of experience, he also needs to remove a variable and add some point weight. The extra weight,,,Oh well, talking to walls here.


My main point isn't about any specific form. A wise man once said "What works, works."

Point weight is ok. It's just that it's not going to make the groups any better unless something else changes.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grapplemonkey said:


> Respectfully Bil... we are trying to give flowarcher what he needs to become an experienced archer. You didn't adapt to the bow in your video... you're that good of a shot... not trying to fluff you up just stating the obvious. Anyone who has decent form can do what you did in that video... but the OP cannot because he has not developed that part of his game yet. He needs to get that part down before anything else... and he can do so with what he has currently.



Well yehaw, now we're getting somewhere. We have the same goal, trying to give the OP what he needs to become an experienced archer.
Newsflash, he needs both and we just happen to disagree on the order of events. I think adding some point weight to increase the foc and arrow tune can be done immediately and contribute to the improvement in his technique. 
You guys think he can use an unreliable arrow and perfect his form to git er done. Well, at least we have the same goal.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> My main point isn't about any specific form. A wise man once said "What works, works."
> 
> Point weight is ok. It's just that it's not going to make the groups any better unless something else changes.



Thanks MGF, you're making me smile. I guess though that post 259 slipped away while you had the blindfold on.
The point is, for the OP it doesn't work. If it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Let me say it again, I'm waiting for someone, anyone, to say exactly what it is about his 'form' that would be the fix all for the OP. Seems that some know that he's doing it wrong but, will not say what he's doing wrong. One person said he thought the OP had too much weight on his front foot, well heck, at least that's something. While I don't think it's a cure all, at least it's something specific.
All this form talk is useless without specifics. Just telling the man he's doing it wrong ain't getting us nowhere.

Btw, form changes will not stop the arrows from bouncing off the bow or add foc to make it more shootable.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

OP you got your answer on post #2.
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Folks...I apologize for getting overly involved in this one...I just felt for the young man..I wouldn't try to teach someone how to drive a stick shift if the engine was running on 3 of its 6 cylinders with a clogged air filter is all I'm saying.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Thanks MGF, you're making me smile. I guess though that post 259 slipped away while you had the blindfold on.
> The point is, for the OP it doesn't work. If it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> Let me say it again, I'm waiting for someone, anyone, to say exactly what it is about his 'form' that would be the fix all for the OP. Seems that some know that he's doing it wrong but, will not say what he's doing wrong. One person said he thought the OP had too much weight on his front foot, well heck, at least that's something. While I don't think it's a cure all, at least it's something specific.
> All this form talk is useless without specifics. Just telling the man he's doing it wrong ain't getting us nowhere.
> ...


I can't say what would fix everything for him because I haven't fixed everything for myself yet.
I can point out a couple of things though. His bow shoulder is bent forward and completely collapsed (riding his shoulder?). His string shoulder is scrunched up and collapsed forward. His torso is all bent up.

I'm not trying to hurt his feelings and everybody has to start someplace but I don't think anything in the world is going to get his arrows all going the same direction until he does something with the rest of that. I don't care if he shoots fast and "instinctive" like John Schultz and Howard Hill or slow and deliberate like an Olympic shooter but I've never seen anybody shoot well when they're all scrunched up like that.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Folks...I apologize for getting overly involved in this one...I just felt for the young man..I wouldn't try to teach someone how to drive a stick shift if the engine was running on 3 of its 6 cylinders with a clogged air filter is all I'm saying.


That's not all you said.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Thanks MGF, I looked at it again and you may be right. I'm not a form police but I thought his string arm elbow was too high, I like to see it level and in line with the arrow. Others say my way is wrong and that the high elbow is the right way. Me not know. I do believe that slowing down and pulling through the shot might help some of the things you mentioned.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok guys i've been away this weekend and i see i missed a LOT of stuff going on...
For those of you wondering what im getting from this,I am going to try and get better tuned gear if its under 20 bucks and ofcourse i am going to work on form(Its not like getting better tuned equipment is going to somehow make it so ill never practice form lol)
Lots of arguing going on too I see however i will agree more with jink,forest and blackwolf since all of them have made positive comments towards my progress and are not just here to argue and have also been helping me near the start.
Yes it has gotten a bit more confusing with all this debate going on but im still pretty confidant that after all this ill still be able to be a proffecient archer with practice and patience,I know one post said that i will walk away from not acheving results I want but i don't really work like that,I don't give up easily in other aspects in my life and i won't in archery especially since even though as was pointed out i do feel a bit disgusted when i don't do well after practice,I still really like archery even if i don't hit my target.
By june if i don't get my archery problems sorted out here I'll be moving to Ohio anyway and im sure over in the states there will be coaches for this.I do hope I can still do archery here before that anyway just cause I like it.
I would like if some of you form guys can stop quarreling with the equipment guys because they both need to be sorted out.Why not tell me whats wrong with my form and where to improve rather than yell at people talking about arrow spine and how wrong they are and its nothing to do with the arrow?Seriously its kind of rediculous how anyone saying my form is bad hasn't said anything thats wrong with it.
lain:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

flowarcher said:


> Ok guys i've been away this weekend and i see i missed a LOT of stuff going on...
> For those of you wondering what im getting from this,I am going to try and get better tuned gear if its under 20 bucks and ofcourse i am going to work on form(Its not like getting better tuned equipment is going to somehow make it so ill never practice form lol)
> Lots of arguing going on too I see however i will agree more with jink,forest and blackwolf since all of them have made positive comments towards my progress and are not just here to argue and have also been helping me near the start.
> Yes it has gotten a bit more confusing with all this debate going on but im still pretty confidant that after all this ill still be able to be a proffecient archer with practice and patience,I know one post said that i will walk away from not acheving results I want but i don't really work like that,I don't give up easily in other aspects in my life and i won't in archery especially since even though as was pointed out i do feel a bit disgusted when i don't do well after practice,I still really like archery even if i don't hit my target.
> ...


This is not an attack... you've just discounted the advice from some seriously reputable archers and stand up guys for that matter. Nobody intended to hurt your feelings but I can gather that have been. I'll leave you with this... you will have to take criticism and make it work for you just as you'd do with anything else in life. Seeing that you favor being commended versus critiqued lends me to believe you will need hands on training... hard to take people seriously with no face behind the words. Good luck to you and your archery endeavors... hope my PM to you serves you well too.

Kawika B.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

Hey Flow.

If you want to work on an instinctive shooting style, improve your form and approach to shooting the bow then check out some of Jeff Kavanaugh's videos. 

Listen, watch, and follow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LSlirztHUs

This one is a good one for picking up fundamentals and I think it can teach you so much more than words. Just check out the videos, Jeff is my instinctive archery hero for posting such informative and amazing shot videos, plus he just seems like a really cool and humble dude. Good luck.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Step 1: Stand-up straight
Step 2: Bring the string to your face, not your face to the string.
Step 3: Adjust the vertical at the waist/hips, not the bow arm.
Step 4: Keep the bow-arm shoulder down.
Step 5: Keep the draw-side elbow where it is vertically (above the line of the arrow) but focus on rotating it behind your head.
Step 6: Practice everything UP TO the release, but don't actually shoot the arrow. Just draw the bow and concentrate on getting your draw-side elbow rotated behind you. Once you feel this the bow may actually feel lighter to hold. Get comfortable in this position and if you ever feel like you are too tired to get into it then stop shooting.

Start every practice off with a few 5-10 second holds and then let the string down. Consider it a warm-up (which it is) for both your body and mind. Concentrate on the feeling of total control.
Form is just a way of doing things the same every time you shoot. Archery is the art of repetition. Certain ways of arranging your form make this easier. If you want to reasoning behind anything written above then I'd be happy to provide it. Generally I can get newbies shooting groups at 20yds in the first hour using completely untuned equipment because they learn how to shoot consistently BEFORE we worry about tuning. I've actually got an older gentleman shooting a [email protected]" vintage recurve drawn to 27" with 29" 600 spine arrows and he can keep them on a 40cm target consistently, shot a 900 round with him today and he (mostly) kept them on the 122cm target at 55m even though they were flying like corkscrews the whole way.

That takes care of the form stuff.

As for equipment stuff:
Are your arrows stiff? Yes.
Are they causing all of your problems? No.
Can they be made to work with some heavier points? Yes.

Do you know if your arrows can use screw-in points or are they one-piece target points?

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

flowarcher said:


> I would like if some of you form guys can stop quarreling with the equipment guys because they both need to be sorted out.Why not tell me whats wrong with my form and where to improve rather than yell at people talking about arrow spine and how wrong they are and its nothing to do with the arrow?Seriously its kind of rediculous how anyone saying my form is bad hasn't said anything thats wrong with it.
> lain:


Did you miss post 280? 

Earlier in the thread I suggested that someone should go over the video with you. I was hoping that one of these guys who is more knowledgeable or one who teaches would do it.

I didn't want to do it. Maybe others didn't want to for the same reason. I don't intend to me mean but I didn't see anything that looked "right".

I don't teach archery but about the best suggestion I can come up with is to look at some of the videos that have been recommended throughout the thread and do some work with a stretch band in front of a mirror or video camera. Then try it with the bow.

I also hoped that you'd get something out of the groups I posted that were shot with grossly mismatched arrows. In this case, the arrows don't have anything to do with it.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grapplemonkey said:


> This is not an attack... you've just discounted the advice from some seriously reputable archers and stand up guys for that matter. Nobody intended to hurt your feelings but I can gather that have been. I'll leave you with this... you will have to take criticism and make it work for you just as you'd do with anything else in life. Seeing that you favor being commended versus critiqued lends me to believe you will need hands on training... hard to take people seriously with no face behind the words. Good luck to you and your archery endeavors... hope my PM to you serves you well too.
> 
> Kawika B.


MY feelings are not hurt and im not disregarding criticism,I just think that there has been no criticism.What i ment at the end was I can see people think my form is bad, fair enough im sure it is,so how about actually pointing out what is wrong?I have gathered no information on what is wrong with my form just that it is bad and a whole bunch of arguing.
I don't care what you say whether i personally think its put in a rude manner or not is irrevlavant just tell me whats wrong with my form so i can improve.
There is no 'favor' in being commended I'm not someone who hears what they want to hear ,my favor is in what is progressive towards my ability and like ive said a billion times,There hasn't been constructive criticism about my form From these reputable archers.Try and give it a whirl rather than these off-rail comments.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Just posted and my page refreshed i see some decent comments about improving form this is what i was talking about.
Thank you.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1

Flowarcher - Jeff Kavanaugh's videos are good, I think someone earlier had mentioned Jimmy Blackmon as well. Above I also include Moebow1 he is another good one to watch and learn. Plus a lot of other good archers here with a wealth of information. At times you might not always agree with someone here but I have found I can learn things even from them at times.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Step 1: Stand-up straight
> Step 2: Bring the string to your face, not your face to the string.
> Step 3: Adjust the vertical at the waist/hips, not the bow arm.
> Step 4: Keep the bow-arm shoulder down.
> ...


Great post you yes and no comments are basically what I have been thinking this whole time,
I do have a question or two
For my bow arm shoulder being kept down i would also have to lower my string arm bringing my anchor to my chin isn't that more olympic style archery?or am i just doing that wrong.
You said that the bow might be lighter to hold and I think in an earlier post you mentioned i am most likely overbowed.At first i did find it hard to draw but now i could hold at draw for about 40 seconds before actually feeling any lactic acid,it feels pretty light and my bow arm doesn't shake anymore,but again If there could be more done feel free to elaborate.
In step 2 you mentioned vertical waist/hips i dont know if i fully understand?Do you mean don't bend over?I just did that because i cant my bow and saw some other archers doing that.
As for my arrows I do not know about the screw points?I know the field points can be taken out of my arrow and are a seperate part however I don't know if there suitable for screw in points,The inside of the arrow is just as plain as the outside.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Arrowzen said:


> Hey Flow.
> 
> If you want to work on an instinctive shooting style, improve your form and approach to shooting the bow then check out some of Jeff Kavanaugh's videos.
> 
> ...


Thanks im already subcribed to him, I also think hes pretty good to learn things from,
If anyone else is wondering what youtube archers i watch its jeff,greyarcher1,Wolfie instincive archery and archery adventures.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

You want to keep a perfect "T". You are breaking your T in your video when lowering your bowarm to aim at the target on the ground. Your drawlength changes when you do that. You want consistency. You have what looks to be a floating anchor too. Work on aiming at a target at chest level for a while.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> Folks...I apologize for getting overly involved in this one...I just felt for the young man..I wouldn't try to teach someone how to drive a stick shift if the engine was running on 3 of its 6 cylinders with a clogged air filter is all I'm saying.


Thank you i appreciate your kindness and you have helped me unfortunatly we are limited to just talking on forums but you have been a help.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

If you have one available... practice with a lighter bow for a while... a light bow will amplify any mistake you make form wise.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

MGF said:


> I can't say what would fix everything for him because I haven't fixed everything for myself yet.
> I can point out a couple of things though. His bow shoulder is bent forward and completely collapsed (riding his shoulder?). His string shoulder is scrunched up and collapsed forward. His torso is all bent up.
> 
> I'm not trying to hurt his feelings and everybody has to start someplace but I don't think anything in the world is going to get his arrows all going the same direction until he does something with the rest of that. I don't care if he shoots fast and "instinctive" like John Schultz and Howard Hill or slow and deliberate like an Olympic shooter but I've never seen anybody shoot well when they're all scrunched up like that.


Missed this one thanks for pointing this out do i just need to really expand my whole body out more?and i don't quite understand about my bow shoulder being bent forward what is it suppose to be like?


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grapplemonkey said:


> If you have one available... practice with a lighter bow for a while... a light bow will amplify any mistake you make form wise.


Unfortunatly,this is the only one i have atm.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

If you're willing to build some aids try searching for a DIY to build a FormMaster. It's a great tool to learn back tension and keeping it through a shot... it'll let you know if you collapse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9YCudXt9I


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grapplemonkey said:


> You want to keep a perfect "T". You are breaking your T in your video when lowering your bowarm to aim at the target on the ground. Your drawlength changes when you do that. You want consistency. You have what looks to be a floating anchor too. Work on aiming at a target at chest level for a while.


understood except the part about floating anchor,what exactly is a floating anchor?My current anchor my fingertips touch a gap in my teeth(index) and corner of my mouth(middle) the rest of my hand does not come in contact with my face..


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

flowarcher said:


> Great post you yes and no comments are basically what I have been thinking this whole time,
> I do have a question or two
> For my bow arm shoulder being kept down i would also have to lower my string arm bringing my anchor to my chin isn't that more olympic style archery?or am i just doing that wrong.
> You said that the bow might be lighter to hold and I think in an earlier post you mentioned i am most likely overbowed.At first i did find it hard to draw but now i could hold at draw for about 40 seconds before actually feeling any lactic acid,it feels pretty light and my bow arm doesn't shake anymore,but again If there could be more done feel free to elaborate.
> ...


Kept down just means that your hand on the bow should be at the same level as your shoulder or higher. Basically you want to use muscles to pull that shoulder down into position and no allow it to raise. It's the opposite of shrugging your shoulders. No need to switch anchors but generally with a higher anchor I put my pressure into the bow with the heel of my hand.
40 seconds is good! Getting into better alignment will only help that.
This goes with #1: You always want your upper body to appear to be shooting level, no matter what the angle is. It makes your torso and arms into a "T" hence why it is known as the T-stance. Bending forward at the waist can be useful if you are trying to shoot under something, but for most people it's more of an affectation then anything useful. If I have to shoot under something I'll shoot from my knees. If you are going to cant (personally I avoid it in order to limit variables) then you must make sure your head and shoulders also cant, you don't want to create this angle at the waist because it will shift your balance out beyond the ends of your feet which leads to instability.

Are the arrow points screwed-in? Can you take a picture of one out of the arrow?

-Grant


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

flowarcher said:


> understood except the part about floating anchor,what exactly is a floating anchor?My current anchor my fingertips touch a gap in my teeth(index) and corner of my mouth(middle) the rest of my hand does not come in contact with my face..


just saw this: get the string-hand flat with a deep hook and you will find that it HAS to make contact with your face. For my anchor this means the thumb knuckle goes right in the hinge of my jaw. I'd consider that my most firm anchor point with my index under my cheek to be the secondary and string on the front of my cheek to be my tertiary.

Here is an example of a low bow-shoulder:









Notice how the shoulder is lower than the hand relative to his spine even though he is shooting downhill?

-Grant


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Kept down just means that your hand on the bow should be at the same level as your shoulder or higher. Basically you want to use muscles to pull that shoulder down into position and no allow it to raise. It's the opposite of shrugging your shoulders. No need to switch anchors but generally with a higher anchor I put my pressure into the bow with the heel of my hand.
> 40 seconds is good! Getting into better alignment will only help that.
> This goes with #1: You always want your upper body to appear to be shooting level, no matter what the angle is. It makes your torso and arms into a "T" hence why it is known as the T-stance. Bending forward at the waist can be useful if you are trying to shoot under something, but for most people it's more of an affectation then anything useful. If I have to shoot under something I'll shoot from my knees. If you are going to cant (personally I avoid it in order to limit variables) then you must make sure your head and shoulders also cant, you don't want to create this angle at the waist because it will shift your balance out beyond the ends of your feet which leads to instability.
> 
> ...


Can't take a photo now its 1 am in Ireland maybe i can tommorow,The points i have now are NOT screwed in,they are tightly fitted but when take them out or put them back in there is no screwing involved.Does this mean my arrow shafts are not compatable?


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

grantmac said:


> just saw this: get the string-hand flat with a deep hook and you will find that it HAS to make contact with your face. For my anchor this means the thumb knuckle goes right in the hinge of my jaw. I'd consider that my most firm anchor point with my index under my cheek to be the secondary and string on the front of my cheek to be my tertiary.
> 
> Here is an example of a low bow-shoulder:
> 
> ...


I already do a deep hook but am i correct that what your saying is to make my fingers touch my face up to my first knuckes?Because as of now they are not touching my face.I also have tried doing this one time but the arrow fletching starts touching my nose and was a bit afraid to let go that way in case i hurt myself have no idea if it would hurt or not.
Also for the bow should i see what your saying but what should i bend if im shooting downhill?


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

1am!!! Go to bed and start fresh when you get back behind your bow. Get pics of yourself from the front, back and directly behind the arrow at full draw so we can see your alignment. Keep this thread going with your progress. Would be nice to see what you can achieve through armchair coaching here on AT. Most of all... keep it fun.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

flowarcher said:


> I already do a deep hook but am i correct that what your saying is to make my fingers touch my face up to my first knuckes?Because as of now they are not touching my face.I also have tried doing this one time but the arrow fletching starts touching my nose and was a bit afraid to let go that way in case i hurt myself have no idea if it would hurt or not.
> Also for the bow should i see what your saying but what should i bend if im shooting downhill?


Here's a good read on how to tell an overbowed condition. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2240242


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm doing some digging and it seems to me that your arrows are likely using the same shafts are Carbon Impact Super Clubs since they have the same outside diameter. What that means, in theory, is that you could use any A/C/E compatible point. Something like this:
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-x-pert-one-piece-break-off-points.html
Unfortunately it does mean that you won't be able to find a broadhead which will work unless you get some rather pricey outserts.

A simple test would be to see if an Easton G-nock will fit.

Those points should be glued in by the way, otherwise that IS some sloppy work at your shop.

-Grant


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Done right the string shouldn't hit your face... then again for some done perfect it rips their nose off. I anchor well against my face with my thumb knuckle sunk into my jawbone and the bowstring firmly affixed to my nose. Most importantly... "your" anchor needs to let you get your string arm into perfect alignment... forearm and elbow lined up with your arrow.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Yeah really should get to bed lots of homework tommorow will try and get those pics up if i can.
Glad the thread is steering in a more productive way again and again thanks for you time.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Give this a read when you get a chance... 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1878971

Hope you get addicted... next thing you know you'll be scurrying the FITA forums for a nice target rig... I constantly fight that urge since none of my camo or plaid would match any of the bows there.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

flowarcher said:


> Missed this one thanks for pointing this out do i just need to really expand my whole body out more?and i don't quite understand about my bow shoulder being bent forward what is it suppose to be like?


Yes, it's the 'T' these other guys are telling you about.

The way I think of it is just stand straight with your shoulders down and arms at your side. Now reach your arms straight out to the sides. No picture the bow in the bow hand and the string hand comes to anchor without moving the shoulder. A straight line is formed from the bow hand through both shoulders and another from the bow hand to the string elbow.

That's a good position to shoot from because bone structure supports much of the bow weight providing a very stable platform.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Wow, lol, :set1_rolf2: I go away for a few hours and the form police are swarming like mosquitos in the swamp. Guys, read the first post where the OP speaks of shooting rabbits and birds on the wing. He ain't got time for all that goofin around, lol.

flowarcher, your form isn't really all that bad, maybe slow down some and allow time while at anchor for your brain to process the info it receives from your eyes. When ya grow up you can snap shoot like the Jinsker if you want to but, it takes some time to get to that level. I'm not as good as he is in that department but I don't practice it much. Inside 20yds I can take care of business pretty quickly if need be though. First you need to gain proficiency and the speed will come. 
When I was out shooting this evening I was thinking about some of this stuff that's being thrown at you. Lol, interesting that I couldn't even say if my bow shoulder is too low or too high or just right, heck who cares. I don't care where my string arm elbow is, I don't care where my feet are and I certainly don't want a straight up vertical T form. As long as I can kill the pine cones at thirty yds with a wood arrow and make any of my other shots count, I guess I'm happy with that.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> I'm doing some digging and it seems to me that your arrows are likely using the same shafts are Carbon Impact Super Clubs since they have the same outside diameter. What that means, in theory, is that you could use any A/C/E compatible point. Something like this:
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-x-pert-one-piece-break-off-points.html
> Unfortunately it does mean that you won't be able to find a broadhead which will work unless you get some rather pricey outserts.
> 
> ...



Grant, he has posted a picture and his arrows have glue in 90gr target points, or maybe it was 95, don't remember exactly. I looked on the shops website and did not see any inserts or heavier points. That doesn't mean they don't have them. Most likely they are available for bearpaw shafts. The interesting thing is that the shop had screw in broadheads in 165gr, but no field points. Couldn't figure that one out. They may not be showing everything on the site. I also didn't find the specs for those shafts so I didn't look anywhere else.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

flowarcher said:


> Can't take a photo now its 1 am in Ireland maybe i can tommorow,The points i have now are NOT screwed in,they are tightly fitted but when take them out or put them back in there is no screwing involved.Does this mean my arrow shafts are not compatable?


They will be fine, just need to find the inserts and points to tune em up some. They're fairly inexpensive too and extremely easy to do so no shop needed.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Wow, lol, :set1_rolf2: I go away for a few hours and the form police are swarming like mosquitos in the swamp.


What would we do without them :wink:

Seriously...form is important...but how it looks is far less important than how natural and consistent it feels to an archer shooting Instinctively.

If target archery's your game than pull those shorts up tight and work on taking advantage of every possible joint and limb position available.

There is allot 'some' archers could learn from studying competitive target archers...but not everyone needs to copy their form to a T.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Grant, he has posted a picture and his arrows have glue in 90gr target points, or maybe it was 95, don't remember exactly. I looked on the shops website and did not see any inserts or heavier points. That doesn't mean they don't have them. Most likely they are available for bearpaw shafts. The interesting thing is that the shop had screw in broadheads in 165gr, but no field points. Couldn't figure that one out. They may not be showing everything on the site. I also didn't find the specs for those shafts so I didn't look anywhere else.


They are the Slim Line ones, something like .234" OD. So very unlikely to have an insert available although VAP outserts might work. Oddly enough identical OD to Carbon Impact Super Club 30/40 shafts, which can take A/C/E components.

-Grant


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What would we do without them :wink:
> 
> Seriously...form is important...but how it looks is far less important than how natural and consistent it feels to an archer shooting Instinctively.
> 
> ...


Dammit boy, you know I could have lived without that pic. I was thinking about hitting the rack but, now I will have to stay up another hour or two to get that image out of my 'minds eye'. LOL


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> They are the Slim Line ones, something like .234" OD. So very unlikely to have an insert available although VAP outserts might work. Oddly enough identical OD to Carbon Impact Super Club 30/40 shafts, which can take A/C/E components.
> 
> -Grant


Skinny, skinny but maybe the inside diameter will be the same also, they can be had. I'm still betting the shop that he bought them from has something.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Bearpaw doesn't make an insert for them. They are marketed entirely as a target shaft.

-Grant


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> Bearpaw doesn't make an insert for them. They are marketed entirely as a target shaft.
> 
> -Grant


oops, that ain't good. Hey, maybe glue two of those wimpy things together. More than one way to skin a cat.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Wow, lol, :set1_rolf2: I go away for a few hours and the form police are swarming like mosquitos in the swamp. Guys, read the first post where the OP speaks of shooting rabbits and birds on the wing. He ain't got time for all that goofin around, lol.


I've shot more rabbits and squirrels than anything else. What did I describe that takes so much time? You still have to draw the bow, right? 

Watch John Schultz shoot aspirins out of the air. He had time to get lined up across the shoulders. Listen to him ramble on about "form". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJh15ErDII

Maybe you can drop the names of a couple of good archers that shoot with their shoulders all collapsed. I don't get out much but I've never seen one.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What would we do without them :wink:
> 
> Seriously...form is important...but how it looks is far less important than how natural and consistent it feels to an archer shooting Instinctively.
> 
> ...


You have to start someplace and it seems wise to copy those who can hit something... at least in regard to the basic elements.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Those shafts are sold through Kustom King. The make a specific glue in point for each size shaft. Arrow weight is 6.7 gr/in so with a 90 gr point they at 28" they should be well over 10% FOC. 

A very easy way to see if they fly better without spending any money is too simply tape a few nails on the end of the shaft. Lay them flat along the length and put the heads along side the pointy end. Kind of a make shift blunt. Try taping 1-3 and it will easily add 50-100 grs up front. In the event there are overly stiff he can still shoot them until they get lost or broken and later on he can pick up something more suitable.

Listen to the advice on form. My hunting buds kid doesn't think it's important. He's been trying to kill a squirrel with his bow for 2 years but its pretty hard when you can't shoot arrows accurately enough to hit a 6" group at 10 yards let alone a tiny little squirrel moving around the foliage.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Look learning form is like taking math in school. In order to have choices down the road you have to master the basics. 

Maybe you are going to be a carpenter or maybe you will be an astrophysicist - you will never have that choice if you don't master addition and subtraction. 

The reason people suggest learning an upright target stance is there are way less variables. With fewer variables it's easier to figure out what you are going wrong or for that matter tune your arrows. 

Once you master classic target form you have that in the bank and have the option to do what ever you want with it. 

I can shoot any bow, in any position, with any aiming system you want me to use - because I did the work and took the time to learn proper form. 

It's worth the investment.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Listen to the advice on form. My hunting buds kid doesn't think it's important. He's been trying to kill a squirrel with his bow for 2 years but its pretty hard when you can't shoot arrows accurately enough to hit a 6" group at 10 yards let alone a tiny little squirrel moving around the foliage.


I've done a lot of squirrel hunting with bow, shotgun, rifle and handgun. The kill zone on a squirrel is pretty small so there isn't much room to be sloppy. These days I hunt them mostly with the bow or an air rifle. When I use the rifle, a carry a shooting stick and rest for probably 98% of my shots. For most shots, I sit or kneel because closer to the ground is more stable and, again, the target is small.

With a bow I catch them on the ground or low near the ground. Being sneaky and accurate seems to be the key. If they're working on/near the ground, being still and quiet can get you some close shots at unalarmed squirrels. Jimmy Blackmon shoots some squirrels and I think he has a few bow shots on video.

The OP said he's moving to Ohio? I guess he'd be hunting cottontail rabbits in cover where they usually live. I've been hunting rabbits since my legs got long enough to get me through the brush.I can't imagine getting many shots at running rabbits with a bow. Not to say that it could never happen but they're usually in cover so getting a clear shot is the problem. Running rabbits are a great target for a shotgun that can bust through some of the brush.

With a bow, I usually catch them sitting and shoot them before they jump. The hard part is maneuvering to get a clear shot through the brush. If you can get that far, there's usually plenty of time for a deliberate shot. I did catch one moving a couple years ago. He was doubling back on a cat that was trailing him. He was moving slow and sneaking though, not running. They do the same thing when you hunt them with dogs so that might work well with a bow.

I always wanted to hunt pheasants with a bow but we don't have any pheasants around here. Years ago, I killed plenty of them with a shotgun though. Some of the guys I hunted with would shoot fast, blast away and usually miss. Pheasants are relatively slow straight flying birds. I rarely ever missed a pheasant but I learned that the key was to take your time, let them get up and leveled out and carefully lay that bead on the bird. Most often they're fairly close when they flush and usually flying nearly straight away. It's just about like shooting at a still target.

Something like quail or woodcock might require you to move faster but that would be some tough shooting with a bow. It's tough with a shotgun.

I've never had a chance to hunt ducks with a bow but I've seen guys do it. Mostly I've seen them sneak up on them and shoot them on the water. We've got some creeks around here that have lots of ducks sometimes but I've never gotten permission to hunt any. I always thought it would be fun to sneak along the creek bank after them but, there again, I'd be trying to catch them sitting. I guess you might be able to get them landing into decoys if the action was close enough.

I've missed a couple of deer over the last couple of years but it wasn't because I was too slow. If anything I was in too much of a hurry and just did a lousy job of executing the shot.

I haven't hunted everything everyplace but all this talk of having to "snap shoot" at game just doesn't ring very true. I certainly don't see such a need for speed that one can't draw the bow with decent alignment. Again, the guys shooting aspirins out of the air look pretty well lined up to me. They get there quick but they don't just skip it because they're in such a hurry.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

What are the basics that EVERY archer MUST copy???

What bow arm angle to the line of draw is 'best' for everyone? 

What draw elbow position is 'best' for everyone?

What anchor point is 'best' for everyone?

What about stance?

Or how about canted or vertical? 

How much bow cant?

3 Under or Split?

High wrist or low wrist grip?

Raccoon or Fox fur hat?

Pink or blue panties?

The only 'basics' an archer must really follow to shoot a bow how most people shoot it is to grab it with their left hand and pull the string with their right hand if they are right handed and vice versa if their left handed.

An archer's form should ALWAYS be based on the archer's G.A.P. profile...no matter how it ends up looking like.

The key is developing CONSISTENCY and anyone wanting to learn or improve should watch archers who share similar GOALS and styles.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> I haven't hunted everything everyplace but all this talk of having to "snap shoot" at game just doesn't ring very true.


You can blame Hollywood for that one!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I haven't hunted everything everyplace but all this talk of having to "snap shoot" at game just doesn't ring very true.


If anyone was saying that an archer HAS to snap shoot than I would agree with you...BUT I haven't come across anyone saying that an archer HAS to snap shoot if they want to be a good bowhunter.

What I have read is where people try to explain the advantages to snap shooting accurately and how it can apply to many hunting circumstances.

I'm a Gap shooter and I've been very effective hunting small and large game even with shots at moving targets. I just recognize and acknowledge the advantages that snap shooting and Instinctive aiming can have while hunting.

There are only a few times I've used those techniques...and they can be very effective. I'm personally not that good at them because I don't practice them that much. My GOALS are to be able to hit about ANY target I can and my style has evolved from that where I can make Gap shooting work for most of my shots.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What are the basics that EVERY archer MUST copy???
> 
> What bow arm angle to the line of draw is 'best' for everyone?
> 
> ...


 
I agree but I'll ask again, do you know of any archer that consistently hits their intended target and shoots with both shoulders collapsed? What G.A.P. profile might lead us to want to adopt that "form"?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If anyone was saying that an archer HAS to snap shoot than I would agree with you...BUT I haven't come across anyone saying that an archer HAS to snap shoot if they want to be a good bowhunter.
> 
> What I have read is where people try to explain the advantages to snap shooting accurately and how it can apply to many hunting circumstances.
> 
> ...


Well, here's what forestgump said after a discussion primarily concerning alignment and the 'T'.


> Wow, lol, I go away for a few hours and the form police are swarming like mosquitos in the swamp. Guys, read the first post where the OP speaks of shooting rabbits and birds on the wing. He ain't got time for all that goofin around, lol.


The people trying to provide the OP with any suggestions that might help with consistency are being referred to as the "form police".

I guess the idea is that there aren't any techniques that tend to contribute to success and the key is to just use "the force" or something?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> Watch this and do what Jimmy does. I know you live out in the sticks - I do as well and that's a good thing but, as you pointed out it makes getting coaching hard. There is no reason to beat yourself up about aiming until you have a solid repeatable form and shot sequence.
> 
> Take some time to brows through Jimmy's whole video collection - they are great http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmyblackmon
> 
> Another Great one to look at is Mobow's channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbp6-yyllTxo6pnhEYFpKhQ


This is a good place to start.

Ray - you can pound your GAP BS all you want (you will get that book deal yet) but it doesn't fly with total beginners. He doesn't know where his archery is going to take him any more than a 1st grader knows what he/she will be when they grow up. If he gets started down the squat and snap shoot road from the get go, either that will be his only option down the road or he will need to unlearn a bunch of bad habits if he wants to try something else.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> You can blame Hollywood for that one!


I think that's it.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF, there are basic principles of physics that put one arrow over the top of another, and that can only be replicated in a shooting machine. We can only try to mimic as much of it as we can and call it "Form".

As for "Form", what is it? Well, if it's whatever the shooter ultimately decides works for him, he's cheated the physics. There is no "Form", then. He's invented his own version, which isn't form, it's just how he throws and arrow. 

If it's whatever puts multiple arrows together, he's found a way to deal with the physics using some of "Form". Here, though, he might also just be benefiting from shooting closer and taking advantage of the physics in rate of dispersion over distance. So, comparing his shooting to a distance shooter's results are not the same. It's apples and oranges.

In the end, there's either a baseline of "Form" or there's nothing. Learn that baseline and cheating it for multiple purposes becomes so much easier than a hit and miss approach till you find what works - which some refer to as " just shoot till you get it".


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## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

I was on YouTube yesterday and this just happened to be up in my reccomendeds so I watched it and it's pretty amazing. In it, they say that it took about 3 years of practice for this guy.


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## flowarcher (Dec 16, 2013)

Well i suppose one way or another,I may as well practice getting good form while im waiting for arrow tips so i suppose ill work on that about 4 yards away form my target.
Still confused on this back tension and release,thought i had back tension but im not so sure anymore.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

flowarcher, the best money you spend on this sport is to spend it on you and your form development. Most highly recommended is a book called "_Shooting the Stickbow_" by Anthony Camera -check Amazon. It's classical archery and the best-selling archery instruction book out there and covers it all and then some. The book will help in detail with what you see in some of these recommended videos on form aspects.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I guess the idea is that there aren't any techniques that tend to contribute to success and the key is to just use "the force" or something?


Do you really need to be this dramatic???

There are techniques that can contribute to success...BUT...they do NOT look the same for everyone! 

There are certain techniques that fit very well with Olympic archers. There are certain techniques that fit well with barebow target archers. There are certain techniques that fit well with archers hunting from the ground shooting at moving targets. There are also some techniques that can cross over from one style to the next.

Archery is about making choices that best suits an archer's G.A.P. profile. Some of those choices can be borrowed from target archers while others can be borrowed from snap shooters.

Archery is NOT about claiming my style is better than yours. It's about finding what works best for an INDIVIDUAL and their GOALS...NO MATTER WHAT IT ENDS UP LOOKING LIKE.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ray - you can pound your GAP BS all you want (you will get that book deal yet) but it doesn't fly with total beginners.


I'll pound mine while you pound yours LOL!

The fact is...not everyone is Matt Potter...and not everyone is Ray Cook!

Each archer needs to be addressed as an individual who has specific GOALS, ABILITIES and PERSONALITY.

The title of this thread is about Instinctive Shooting...NOT competitive target archery.

There are certain aspects to Instinctive Shooting that don't necessarily follow classical style target archery...no matter how much you pound your BS.

Just because you found a style and technique that fulfills your G.A.P. profile...and yes...you do in fact have one :wink: it does NOT mean it will satisfy every other archers.

There's nothing wrong with giving a new archer pointers and techniques that have worked for you...but when you or anyone else pushes your BS about how every new archer needs to follow this or that regardless of their G.A.P. profile...you're waaay off!

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

flowarcher said:


> Well i suppose one way or another,I may as well practice getting good form while im waiting for arrow tips so i suppose ill work on that about 4 yards away form my target.


:thumbs_up



flowarcher said:


> Still confused on this back tension and release,thought i had back tension but im not so sure anymore.


You do have back tension...what most of us want to learn...especially target archers...is how to feel it and how to increase it after reaching anchor.

Some people need manual palpation while others need verbal and visual cues.

The key is to try a few things out until you find what works for you.

Some archers visualize their draw elbow moving backwards at a slight radius towards the back as they release or increase back tension.

Some archers pick up a bucket full of sand while bent over and learn to relax their arm muscles while transfering the intensity or feel of contraction to the back muscles to hold the bucket in place. Than they learn to maintain that position and contraction of the back muscles while relaxing the contraction of the finger muscles.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you really need to be this dramatic???
> 
> There are techniques that can contribute to success...BUT...they do NOT look the same for everyone!
> 
> ...


Do you have any suggestions for the OP that might help him hit the target more often?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> Do you have any suggestions for the OP that might help him hit the target more often?


You must of over looked a few posts of mine like the one right above your's :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm going to have to side with Black Wolf. There's no 1 size fits all for shooting. My goals of having fun shooting would be destroyed if I was worrying about it too much and over thinking it. I like to just go out, shoot and not be too serious.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

xxxJakkxxx said:


> I'm going to have to side with Black Wolf. There's no 1 size fits all for shooting. My goals of having fun shooting would be destroyed if I was worrying about it too much and over thinking it. I like to just go out, shoot and not be too serious.


EXCACTLY :thumbs_up

Here are some successful archers...each with different styles and techniques.

Ray :shade:


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