# What to do about archery shops overbowing targert archers...



## rstgyx (Apr 13, 2013)

For me it was more of archery shops taking advantage of new shooters and pushing them products which weren't necessary/required for them to be able to start shooting.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

archery shops can't win.

first and foremost, they are in business to make a profit. they're not a club. yes, they have some interest in seeing people progress into archery as a long term sport and thus become a source of repeat sales, but from association with a couple of business owners, the number of budding archers that reach that point are in the low single digits of walk-in sales. and then how many of the remaining ongoing participants learn to buy from Lancaster or Alt, so there's no sale anyway?

they also know that if they sell someone a rig that they can draw now, it will be a toy in 6 weeks, and the customer is annoyed at having to buy new gear - rightly or wrongly, that's how it is.

if they sell someone a rig they can grow into, they will struggle initially, and people like us will damn them for doing so.

if they tell people to go away and use club gear for 6 weeks and build some muscles, they risk the person walking away forever to another shop.

you know - if I was the shop owner, I'd probably end up at the same solution too, because it's the least of my evils.

that's not a perfect answer by any means, but the real world doesn't just work from our side of the counter either, and we are shortsighted if we think it does.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> Frustrated today: A father and daughter showed up at the public range today with a shiny new bow and arrows fresh from the largest archery store in the area. The girl is perhaps 10-12, under 5' and they set her up with a 30# Ragim with a 27" wood riser - now, of course, isn't 30# OTF, and she *can* pull it back to anchor, once. Grrr...
> 
> The father and daughter had showed up to the range earlier, but we weren't able to accommodate them today as walk ins, so we talked with them about options and opportunities and hoped to be able to accommodate them soon. Nice family. They left and showed up to shoot on their own at the range with their new rig as we were packing club supplies away. We were surprised by the draw weight, but that was what the store recommended to them, apparently in part because they had a limited inventory of left handed bows (and, it seems, think of the limbs as being left handed? I guess they sell them as a unit with the riser :dontknow: )
> 
> ...


Yes, I run into it quite a bit, too. The culprit in my neck of the woods is usually Bass Pro. The guys working there are usually compound guys and all about hunting and maybe some 3D. So their world view is poundage, and they sell the recurve looker a wood hunting recurve. The archer then finds their way to the range/me at some point with a bow that is beautiful and short and way too heavy a pull for them (and even heavier if the archer is lefthanded, because their selection of lefthanded bow is more limited and doesn't go down as low in limb weight). Luckily we've got a good selection of range ILF bows with lightweight limbs that they can use as they establish their form. But it's more often than not that that bow they walked in here with is a total $$$ write off for them except as wall art.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

caspian said:


> archery shops can't win.
> 
> first and foremost, they are in business to make a profit. they're not a club. yes, they have some interest in seeing people progress into archery as a long term sport and thus become a source of repeat sales, but from association with a couple of business owners, the number of budding archers that reach that point are in the low single digits of walk-in sales. and then how many of the remaining ongoing participants learn to buy from Lancaster or Alt, so there's no sale anyway?
> 
> ...


I do understand that shops exist to make a profit. From that stand point, I think their overbowing target archers is bad for business since weekend shooters will **never** "grow into" a bow and the bow will wind up in a closet, resulting in zero future gear sales for the store. 

Most archers start out as casual archers, and you don't develop strength if you shoot, say, once a week. To put this in context, selling people too much bow is a bit like an exercise equipment store selling a person who wants to work out once a week a 300 pound, fixed weight barbell, and saying "you'll grow into it." That only works from an ongoing business perspective if exercise store also owns the physical therapy supplies store down the street. 

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that nobody grows into bows that are a bit too (or way too) heavy for them, only that I think in the aggregate that more people buying their first target or casual bow don't than do, and that being over bowed can lead to bad form, dissatisfaction with archery and sometimes even strains and injuries.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I do understand that shops exist to make a profit. From that stand point, I think their overbowing target archers is bad for business since weekend shooters will **never** "grow into" a bow and the bow will wind up in a closet, resulting in zero future gear sales for the store.
> 
> Most archers start out as casual archers, and you don't develop strength if you shoot, say, once a week. To put this in context, selling people too much bow is a bit like an exercise equipment store selling a person who wants to work out once a week a 300 pound, fixed weight barbell, and saying "you'll grow into it." That only works from an ongoing business perspective if exercise store also owns the physical therapy supplies store down the street.


It's not that hard to have a $100 righthand and lefthand SF Axiom riser, and a variety of SF limbs from 16lb to 24lb, for prospects to demo a few shots with various draw weights and then order the setup that will compliment them in the beginning for around $200. Maybe have a Hoyt Excel 23" and a Horizon 25" riser, too, so the prospects can experience a different grip geometry to make a better initial choice. For $1,000 the shop owner has a functioning demo department that can serve customers well. But the shop has to be interested enough and knowledgeable enough in target recurve to create a scenario that encourages it - most shops I've seen don't have the interest or the knowledge to do so.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Yes, it's a common occurrence. Not just the big box stores, but pro-shops, too. 

I'm not sure it's always the fault of the store. While they should advise if something is not appropriate, often the parent or archer is the one who is making the bad choice, out of ignorance. I have seen this many times. Little Johnny or Suzie just had to have a bow, so they get the 30# Samick Sage at the bow hunting store, the only one that was available. 

Not only the bow, but the arrows too. Seeing 400 spine carbon arrows on a Genesis bow is not uncommon. Then watch them drop like a rock! 

So, here's what we do, at my dedicated target pro-shop... give kind advice, show them the difference with more suitable equipment, and let them use our rental bows. We offer to put their other gear on consignment, and help them with a more suitable purchase. 

We are careful not to be offensive to the parent, OR the store they bought it from. 

We can be part of the solution. 

I network with the other stores. They send people to me and I send people to them for brands that I don't carry (Hoyt, Mathews). I certified one of the main archery guys at Bass Pro to L1. That helped a little. I will also visit the other stores and just chat. The manager at Gander comes to shoot at X10. 

Visit your local stores and create relationships. It all helps.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> It's not that hard to have a $100 righthand and lefthand SF Axiom riser, and a variety of SF limbs from 16lb to 24lb, for prospects to demo a few shots with various draw weights and then order the setup that will compliment them in the beginning for around $200. Maybe have a Hoyt Excel 23" and a Horizon 25" riser, too, so the prospects can experience a different grip geometry to make a better initial choice. For $1,000 the shop owner has a functioning demo department that can serve customers well. But the shop has to be interested enough and knowledgeable enough in target recurve to create a scenario that encourages it - most shops I've seen don't have the interest or the knowledge to do so.


Yes, I think we've seen that really good business people can promote and *create* a market for what they do, whereas others just put out a sign and expect people to show up and buy whatever the store has bothered to stock. I respect people who can do the former, but I also know it isn't easy, nor always possible.

When I first started target archery I visited all the brick and mortar shops in the area. One thing that surprised me was that none of them had any test arrows for spine, so even if you visited a brick and mortar store you still had to guestimate the spine, and, possibly, still wait if they didn't have the shafts in stock. Other than measuring your DL, the brick and mortar store wasn't giving the advantage over mail order that it seemed like they should. This is just one of those things I thought a good store should have. But, now that I know more about arrows I know how expensive it would be to try to have such a set just sitting around a shop. dchan has set up one with intermediate level arrows (including Medallion XRs) with a full selection of low spines, each in three lengths with fletched and unfletched shafts, for the JOAD/AAP. It is really useful, but it was expensive to put together.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

An archery shop that overbows a shooter isn't doing itself any favors -- or so I thought. Because commons sense would dictate that if you sold me the wrong thing I won't be back. Wrong.

I met a guy pulling 45 pounds he had no business pulling. So he went back to the SAME shop -- you know-- spent more money. I have also seen shops sell new young shooters a bow because they CAN pull it back not because they should be, without advising to work on form. Because they want to impress the person with the checkbook -- the parent.

And don't get me started on arrows.........anytime anyone asks me what they should get I tell them take some lessons first, do some research on line but don't for God's sake buy anything till you have a better idea. 

Which is why when I walk into a shop (if they have what I want and it makes more sense to get it from them than to order it), I tell them what I want. I don't ask. I tell them.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> Yes, it's a common occurrence. Not just the big box stores, but pro-shops, too.
> 
> I'm not sure it's always the fault of the store. While they should advise if something is not appropriate, often the parent or archer is the one who is making the bad choice, out of ignorance. I have seen this many times. Little Johnny or Suzie just had to have a bow, so they get the 30# Samick Sage at the bow hunting store, the only one that was available.
> 
> ...


Wish you ran a store in my area. I won't say any more about the two pro shops in my county. The only people with appropriate gear from either store talked to a coach first or had lessons first. The ones who didn't -- oops.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

StarDog said:


> An archery shop that overbows a shooter isn't doing itself any favors -- or so I thought. Because commons sense would dictate that if you sold me the wrong thing I won't be back. Wrong.
> 
> I met a guy pulling 45 pounds he had no business pulling. So he went back to the SAME shop -- you know-- spent more money.


Great point. I do sometimes forget that assuming people make economic decisions rationally is a mistake (I still need to finish reading _Thinking, Fast and Slow_ by Daniel Kahneman :embara: )




StarDog said:


> I have also seen shops sell new young shooters a bow because they CAN pull it back not because they should be, without advising to work on form. Because they want to impress the person with the checkbook -- the parent.


I don't know about sales, but definitely in requests at the club. The boys frequently want to shoot higher poundage, even if they aren't shooting to their potential with their current bow. I do try not to project based on gender given the great differences between individuals, but some boys will act like boys... Sigh...




StarDog said:


> And don't get me started on arrows.........anytime anyone asks me what they should get I tell them take some lessons first, do some research on line but don't for God's sake buy anything till you have a better idea.
> 
> Which is why when I walk into a shop (if they have what I want and it makes more sense to get it from them than to order it), I tell them what I want. I don't ask. I tell them.


I think I can count the number of times I've seen a local shop set up a beginner bow with the correct spine on zero hands. (It may not actually be that bad, but over spined arrows are the rule.) Granted, for beginners, it can ok to go with arrows that are sturdy and a bit stiff (which is actually the rule for NASP with their massive arrows), but the shops often go way beyond even that.


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

I run 7 Park District and 4 after school programs in the Denver area. Many times students will show up with 45# bows that they got from one of the big box stores. The problem is that they do not ask the right questions. IE: what type of shooting do you do, what is your experience, have you shot a bow before? et al. They simply are not trained properly and most are part timers so they themselves don't have that much archery experience. There are only a couple shops in the Denver area that I send people to since they carry recurve equipment and they bother to spend time with their customers to make sure the equipment fits them and their shooting style/needs. Before I send anyone into a shop I counsel them on what they should be looking for and what to expect. Kinda like writing a prescrition.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I often run into folks who get really bad advice before buying and it is super frustrating to see someone come in with a rig that just doesn't fit the student. 
I've gone out of my way to source and link to bows that I recommend on our website and point people to it regularly. 

Fortunately the major shop near my program also runs a youth program so they deal with the same issues and are generally pretty good at outfitting the new archers. It's the big box stores that send people out the door with crap.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

This is a problem everywhere. Retail job is to move inventory it has on the shelves, not order anything in special. Because of this they will always over bow kids.

We have an equipment recommendation sheet. We will put on information like draw length, bow weight, arrow spine, etc. We tell the parents NO SUBSTITUTIONS. If a shop makes a substitution it is wrong 90% of the time. I will call the shop and tell them they are to take the product back and ORDER IN they correct item. We make it clear to the parent that several of the items will need to be ordered in. Either that or we go thru Lancaster.

The shops are slowly learning what to stock and not to substitute if it comes from DSA.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

StarDog said:


> Wish you ran a store in my area. I won't say any more about the two pro shops in my county. The only people with appropriate gear from either store talked to a coach first or had lessons first. The ones who didn't -- oops.


There needs to be more of what we're doing here in Houston for target archery. I have a plan...


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

At some point, however, the consumer has to take SOME responsibility. I think people forget this is an actual weapon. When someone walks into a pro shop and sees dead animal heads on the wall, that should be a clue this is DANGEROUS and maybe I should get some information before I buy one, or I arm my child. 

Of course I am totally delusional if I think a consumer is going to take responsibility.....

I would fail miserably as an archery shop employee. "Before you buy, you have to demonstrate you either know what you're doing, or take a beginning course."


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

This is a problem where I live to, and unfortunately the bowtech, who is very knowledgeable about what beginning archers need, does not have much control over it. The inventory is done by someone else, who does the inventory for every department in the store (read: rock climbing, fishing, hunting, kayaking, etc) so the only lighter poundage bows are very basic (and not very attractive looking) target recurves. Most people, i think, who have little or no experience with archery walk into a store like that, and they see the pretty wooden hunting style recurves and dont take a second look at the target recurves. I know I did this very thing, and despite the bowtechs best efforts to steer me towards a bow that was better suited to my needs, I walked out of the store with a 60" 40# wooden recurve and proceeded to tear my rotator cuff in the first week of shooting. Luckily I didnt give up and eventually bought a nice riser and some low poundage limbs and now I am the West regional Collegiate champion! So, a combination of bad inventory and bull headed consumers like myself can be a difficult position for even an experienced bowtech. But also, most stores are just trying to turn a buck, so there is also that.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

StarDog said:


> An archery shop that overbows a shooter isn't doing itself any favors -- or so I thought. Because commons sense would dictate that if you sold me the wrong thing I won't be back. Wrong.


unfortunately, from close association with the owner of an archery show, unfortunately - yes they are.

well over 95% of the gear that walks out of his store would get shot a few times and then turns into a dust collector. it's impulse buying, he's never getting a second sale out of them.

he does try to do the right thing by people, but if turns someone away he loses a sale, so he gives them advice, and then sells them what they want. I don't blame him in the slightest. he's in business, not a public service.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

caspian said:


> unfortunately, from close association with the owner of an archery show, unfortunately - yes they are.
> 
> well over 95% of the gear that walks out of his store would get shot a few times and then turns into a dust collector. it's impulse buying, he's never getting a second sale out of them.
> 
> he does try to do the right thing by people, but if turns someone away he loses a sale, so he gives them advice, and then sells them what they want. I don't blame him in the slightest. he's in business, not a public service.


At that point I"d agree with you. He's done his best and they aren't listening.


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## chunkysushi (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm not sure it's actually irrational... it's simply they defer to the "expertise" of the salesman. If I'm at a fancy restaurant, and the sommelier recommends a wine as fantastic. I drink it and it tastes off... I'm not versed enough to question his recommendation. Maybe it's just my group... but almost no-one I know has ever sent back wine (and there were definitely some bad ones).

Just this past weekend, I saw (just recurve... compound was worse):

1) 66" recurve with a 4" brace height
2) 3 kids with under 20lb bows with 1816 arrows (not long draw archers)
3) 2 incorrect nocking points
4) 2 incorrect bow sizes for LD archers with stacking issues
5) 4 overbowed archers (overbowed by at least 15 lbs each)

Hearing the customer stories... so many tried and dropped the sport not because of disinterest... but simply of bad setups that were uncomfortable. Seeing why they were uncomfortable usually leads back to the same two things... laziness (no setup/measurements at all) or greed (just trying to clear out old inventory). I was hit with both for my first bow setup ($500+) and was lucky enough to meet Viper1 later on who kindly ("grilled and lectured") me on some changes and why the setup was completely wrong.

Money is tight on both sides of the register these days. As a business owner, you'd have to be a total moral-less butt-hole to not spend time fitting a customer who is spending a good amount of their hard earned money on gear. It doesn't matter if you're making $5 off the sale or $50. With the interweb, it's just a matter of time before the consumer is educated... and though not immediate they will eventually see very clearly who has earned their loyalty.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

chunkysushi said:


> Hearing the customer stories... so many tried and dropped the sport not because of disinterest... but simply of bad setups that were uncomfortable.


Absolutely. It is amazing how many folks, parents usually, who are put off archery because they think that you have to be really strong to pull back the bow. They have either tried someone else's bow that is too heavy for them, or they are just under a false illusion.

There are several informational type leaflets that I want to put together for my store. One of them will be a guide on purchasing equipment, and why understanding the shot cycle is essential to proper form and avoiding injury. If you started weight training, you wouldn't go out and buy the heaviest weights you could carry and make up some routines. You would take advice from a trainer, probably, and start out at an appropriate level for a beginner. I think some people (retail outlets included) don't readily grasp that concept because they don't view archery as a "sport" where injury is possible.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

StarDog said:


> When someone walks into a pro shop and sees dead animal heads on the wall...<snip>


That is one of the things, imho, that leads folks to not realize that archery can be a sport, and the process that is needed to own your sport. They equate it with hunting, which leads to a certain mindset.

We don't have anything hunting related in our store (yet - we will give a little nod closer to hunting season, but you won't see any camo (let's not get started on that ) or trophy mounts). We're going for a clean, sporty look. We have vintage archery pics on the wall of folks like Daryl Pace, LuAnn Ryon, Bob Rhode, and some other cool B&W archery pics. Our logo includes a WA target face (and a cross), so it's fairly obvious what we're about. 

We found out recently that a local culture, who wanted to try archery, would not come into the store when the previous tenants were here because of the trophy mounts all over the walls. We now have many of that community coming in on a regular basis.

I hate to say it, because I know folks have strong feelings about maintaining that link to archery's roots of survival, but I believe there is a need to create a separate image for target archery. That is one step toward newcomers finding the right resources to get them started out in the right way.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> If you started weight training, you wouldn't go out and buy the heaviest weights you could carry and make up some routines. You would take advice from a trainer, probably, and start out at an appropriate level for a beginner.


Hmm if you could only buy one pair of free weights, I think it would be reasonable to buy one that you can only lift for 3 reps - all with proper form. Gradually 3 proper form reps will turn into 20. This method does have the potential to help gym enthusiasts save money. It's definitely not an ideal method since there is a risk for injury. For archers and retailers, jumping weight might be more enticing because of the sometimes-long wait-time for new limbs to ship/come in.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

iArch said:


> Hmm if you could only buy one pair of free weights, I think it would be reasonable to buy one that you can only lift for 3 reps - all with proper form. Gradually 3 proper form reps will turn into 20. This method does have the potential to help gym enthusiasts save money. It's definitely not an ideal method since there is a risk for injury. For archers and retailers, jumping weight might be more enticing because of the sometimes-long wait-time for new limbs to ship/come in.


Really, from a PT standpoint it would still be better to go with the lighter weight. You can increase the amount you can lift by doing very concentrated and controlled eccentric movements with light weight. Plus some of the form issues that come with lifting in the gym don't have as severe of a risk of injury as archery because most popular exercises are pretty natural movements. 

I don't see a good parallel between lifting and archery. If I misunderstood your meaning, I do apologize.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

iArch said:


> Hmm if you could only buy one pair of free weights, I think it would be reasonable to buy one that you can only lift for 3 reps - all with proper form. Gradually 3 proper form reps will turn into 20. This method does have the potential to help gym enthusiasts save money. It's definitely not an ideal method since there is a risk for injury. For archers and retailers, jumping weight might be more enticing because of the sometimes-long wait-time for new limbs to ship/come in.


A neophyte starting off with an amount of weight they can only lift 3 reps? Forget about the word 'gradually' and concentrate on the phrase "almost immediately", because that's how quickly most people would get hurt/injured.

As mentioned before, it's not a big stretch for a business to keep 4 or 5 pairs of lightweight limbs, and a right and lefthanded riser, in stock for demo - but the store has to be knowledgeable about target recurve and the considerations thereof. The customer gets measured for draw length, tries out several different limb weights, and can then make an 'informed' decision about the gear specs to order. The business owner could impose a 'demo fee' that would apply to the purchase price, to discourage people from coming in to get all measured up for free, and then sourcing the equipment somewhere else to save $20. That would establish the shop as being 'serious' about 'serving the client in their target archery interest/pursuit' and not just shoving product out the door. If they miss some impulse purchases, then so be it. A target recurve department in an archery store is better run as a tailor shop, not "rack suits available in 'small, medium, and large'.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

In my experience sporting goods stores and compound oriented shops often stock 30-50# recurves which are high enough to talk about hunting with but low enough to sell someone as a beginner. They're not going to try -- or probably even be allowed to try -- a woodie for an hour to see if they can complete a session with that weight. The same people will admit they don't know a bunch about recurves, but we all know that's often the "just in case" nook for the ones coming in who'll consider those bows at a hunting oriented shop. The choice of weight might help them sell to the anticipated clientele but it's a poor match. In an ideal world they'd send you over to the right shop for you but that's not often how the world works unfortunately.

If there is any saving grace it would be that if you stick with it and become aware of all the outlets and what's available, you can usually buy new limbs for the takedown woodies. I was sold a 35# Sage for my first and after a session of uncontrolled cannon shots downrange (at least back then) quickly bought 25# for it which made it useful. My brother inherited it and uses both sets. He likes field courses where it's less important how it holds up for 100 arrows.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Pro shops and hunting keep us in business. And unless it's a BIG store like Hi tech in Fullerton, smaller, local shops can't really afford to have a small array of limbs etc for people to try They usually just have Samick or PSE (which should give someone a ball park re: bow length and draw weight.

Then there is the issue of is the store owner going to make any $$ on the sale. If he doesn't rep what I want there is no point I having him order it.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

iArch said:


> Hmm if you could only buy one pair of free weights, I think it would be reasonable to buy one that you can only lift for 3 reps - all with proper form. Gradually 3 proper form reps will turn into 20. This method does have the potential to help gym enthusiasts save money. *It's definitely not an ideal method since there is a risk for injury.*


That's the whole freaking point!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> We don't have anything hunting related in our store (yet - we will give a little nod closer to hunting season, but you won't see any camo (let's not get started on that ) or trophy mounts). We're going for a clean, sporty look. We have vintage archery pics on the wall of folks like Daryl Pace, LuAnn Ryon, Bob Rhode, and some other cool B&W archery pics. Our logo includes a WA target face (and a cross), so it's fairly obvious what we're about.
> 
> We found out recently that a local culture, who wanted to try archery, would not come into the store when the previous tenants were here because of the trophy mounts all over the walls. We now have many of that community coming in on a regular basis.
> 
> I hate to say it, because I know folks have strong feelings about maintaining that link to archery's roots of survival, but I believe there is a need to create a separate image for target archery. That is one step toward newcomers finding the right resources to get them started out in the right way.


This was true for me back when I took archery in college. I liked it, and I looked up archery in the Yellow Pages and drove to the nearby shops - one was a dingy, foreboding hole in the wall with trophies and huntin' stuff. Welcoming it was not. I didn't have any expertise in archery (or hunting), and the shop clearly didn't deal in the kind of archery I was doing in the college PE class. It made it seem that there was no support for target archery in my area so I gave up on archery. I didn't get into it until many years later, post world wide web. The internet was really key to learning what resources were available.

So, hats off to you for having the kind of store and support I was looking for back then. And the issue with hunting archery stores it isn't about hating hunting or anything like that, as some might presume, it's just the wrong category of stuff and support and the wrong atmosphere - there is a miasma of machismo at the hunting stores, which I've since seen lead to people buying manly bows that are way too heavy for them, buying the full 60 pound hunting weight bow their buddy has, regardless of whether they themselves can pull it back, and sometimes that works out, but often it doesn't. 

On a different note, there is a balance of how much to try to steer a customer and how much to just give them what they ask for, even when it is clear they don't know what they are doing. Too much in either direction can be bad. One store that used to be in my area had a curmudgeonly old owner, who would not sell you stuff he thought was wrong for you. The problem was he didn't know target archery - he was a compound hunter. And he wasn't helpful to people with special needs, either. He refused to put a D-loop on a recurve or sell a caliper release to a man with a hand deficiency, saying you couldn't do that with a recurve - you can. (I met the man at the range shooting his recurve with a release, one he'd had to go to a different store to buy.)


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> That's the whole freaking point!


Haha yes...though it_ is_ one way to go about things! 
:deadhorse


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Last_Bastion said:


> Really, from a PT standpoint it would still be better to go with the lighter weight. You can increase the amount you can lift by doing very concentrated and controlled eccentric movements with light weight. Plus some of the form issues that come with lifting in the gym don't have as severe of a risk of injury as archery because most popular exercises are pretty natural movements. I don't see a good parallel between lifting and archery. If I misunderstood your meaning, I do apologize.


Well there really isn't a good parallel. There are some free weight exercises that are very similar to archery draw movement.



lksseven said:


> it's not a big stretch for a business to keep 4 or 5 pairs of lightweight limbs, and a right and lefthanded riser, in stock for demo - but the store has to be knowledgeable about target recurve and the considerations thereof.


 You're right the business and staff should know better to inform the customers, but I also think the customers themselves should hold a measure of accountability for knowing their own body. If you try to lift a heavy moving box, you'll know instantly if it's too much. I think the same applies to testing a draw weight at the shop. With the amount of information on the internet these days, customers should be able to handle themselves at the shop. The demo fee is a good idea.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

MsSpeedmaster: for you! There is a club here in my neck of the woods which was designed so people didn't have to look at dead animals parts. They shoot at bales on private property with a coach. No compounds allowed. 

However the two shop owners of the local pro shops are both hunters and one of them put most if not all the animal heads on the wall of his store so there you have it.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

what does the use of compound bows have to do with hunting? there isn't a single one of the clubs I can think of locally (about 12 or so) that has any mention it at all, and compounds are about 50% of the bow makeup.

I can think of a few foam targets, but this is one of them, and it's used for kids parties.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

caspian said:


> what does the use of compound bows have to do with hunting? there isn't a single one of the clubs I can think of locally (about 12 or so) that has any mention it at all, and compounds are about 50% of the bow makeup.


You'd be surprised.... In the winter months, I often practice at a local pro shop that is, as most in the area are, hunting oriented--no target set ups, no target accessories, dead animals lining walls, one entire shooting lane occupied by a "man of steel" target..You get the picture. 

I cannot tell you how many times while practicing with my target compound, someone has come up to me to ask if I also hunt. When I reply that I do not and that I just shoot paper targets, they look at me like I have grown a thrid eye... 

How dare I shoot a compound without also being an avid hunter....LOL!!


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Warbow said:


> So, hats off to you for having the kind of store and support I was looking for back then.


Thank you. It's motivated by what I first experienced when moving over into target archery from the bow hunting world. There just wasn't easy access to knowledge and equipment. And also from having seen so many students buy the wrong equipment and go in the wrong direction. There literally was nothing visible in Houston to steer target archery. And now, I'm having a blast. Exhausted, but happy. 



> And the issue with hunting archery stores it isn't about hating hunting or anything like that...


Exactly. So many people have told me I need to embrace the hunting crowd, because that's where the money is. Well, guess what...? Bow hunting is very well catered for in Houston. And, I broke even in my first month of operations, based on lessons and range fees alone, before I had much inventory. I don't *need* to compete with our friends in the other pro-shops. 



> curmudgeonly


I'm going to try to use that in a sentence today, with a customer, haha.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

StarDog said:


> MsSpeedmaster: for you! There is a club here in my neck of the woods which was designed so people didn't have to look at dead animals parts. They shoot at bales on private property with a coach. No compounds allowed.
> 
> However the two shop owners of the local pro shops are both hunters and one of them put most if not all the animal heads on the wall of his store so there you have it.


Ha, yeah, there's a phrase where I come from... "horses for courses".


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

iArch said:


> You're right the business and staff should know better to inform the customers, but I also think the customers themselves should hold a measure of accountability for knowing their own body. If you try to lift a heavy moving box, you'll know instantly if it's too much. I think the same applies to testing a draw weight at the shop. With the amount of information on the internet these days, customers should be able to handle themselves at the shop. The demo fee is a good idea.


The new-to-archery customer is the person least likely to understand the sport or even to know where to look for answers. I went to a Certain Range for my lessons and I didn't know what draw weight I was using or should get for myself. I was well trained in the use of a recurve but had little idea about the equipment I was using to learn it. I asked some guy at a Gander Mountain and he told me what I assume was a hunting weight. I was overbowed for target purposes. I then educated myself and bought lighter limbs. Particularly since draw weight is figured out basically by discovering what becomes too much, I'd put the onus on the instructors and the sellers who have or should have some understanding as opposed to the noobs who don't know much of anything. Customers won't know better and can only learn by trial and error. A seller should know what the right weights for varying people and purposes are.

The noob may even have the good sense to buy the lightest thing in the store but if it's 30-50# it may still be unfit for noob strength and purposes.

To me it's also similar to how you go to a store/range to learn to shoot and what they will want to teach you varies by place. But the customer coming in doesn't know they are being taught "traditional" or "barebow" or "Olympic." We can tell watching it but it's because we already know better. But they just wanted an "archery" lesson.


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## mahgnillig (Aug 3, 2014)

Good on you Ms. S for catering to the target crowd... this reminds me of the shops I was used to visiting in the UK where most archery is target archery instead of hunting. I wish I could find a shop here that wasn't covered in dead animals 

Our coach at the indoor range told us last night that he was trying to get some target archery going at the outdoor range but the person in charge there had told him that the only people that use the outdoor range are hunters and there is no point in catering to target archers. /sigh.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Azzurri said:


> I went to a Certain Range for my lessons and I didn't know what draw weight I was using or should get for myself. I was well trained in the use of a recurve but had little idea about the equipment I was using to learn it.


The Certain Range you took lessons from has the draw weight and size listed on the bows. If you asked the instructor(s) you took lessons from, they would have quickly given you the specs of the setup that you were using. Also it might have helped to order your equipment from the Certain Range instead of going to Gander Mountain to speak with hunter-focused sellers - even if you were new. As a newbie myself, I trust my instructor over a retail dealer.



Azzurri said:


> To me it's also similar to how you go to a store/range to learn to shoot and what they will want to teach you varies by place. But the customer coming in doesn't know they are being taught "traditional" or "barebow" or "Olympic." We can tell watching it but it's because we already know better. But they just wanted an "archery" lesson.


Yeah that happened to me. I didn't know what style I was shooting until people put a name on it, started categorizing it, and eventually compared the merits of each style. 
What stores/ranges teach you definitely varies. No Shoes, No Shirts, No Sights, No Service!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

mahgnillig said:


> Our coach at the indoor range told us last night that he was trying to get some target archery going at the outdoor range but the person in charge there had told him that the only people that use the outdoor range are hunters and there is no point in catering to target archers. /sigh.


Doh! Self-fulfilling prophesy - just like USAA was doing with BB at the Nationals. Make it suck for a certain group at a range or event and then, when that group stays away, conclude, "See, nobody from that group is interested."


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Expose people to the possibilities. Educate and then advocate. Knowledge fixes these issues. And if you think shops are not open to getting better, you would be talking to someone other than the owner. The owner has a vested stake in improving his product every day and in any way. That leads to profit.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Target archery is big at our shop but not our bread and butter. 

If the target archers want us to cater to them more then they need to stop coming in and trying my products and then come back the next week with the identical item they purchased from Amazon. THEN expect me to show them how to use it for free.

I stock a selection of Recurves, plungers, tabs, sights, apertures, clickers etc. ALSO, for the compounds I stock spring steel rests, target sights from Axcel and Sureloc. (Big money wrapped up in these items) 

Oh, and by the way there are NO dead animals hanging on my walls except one European mount above the restroom doors.

Target archers are the first to complain that nobody stocks the items they need. Honestly, they make it hard for shops to stock what they need when they try then don't buy from the shop.

And, I am not a hunter, I am smart enough to know where my money comes from though.

And, like I mentioned before, sometimes the customer gets overeducated by researching the web. They will not listen to our advise because they learned that pro shops are evil by reading the info on the web. I've stopped arguing with those people, they want a 50lb bow for their kid and that's it. I sell them what they think they want, I advise them otherwise but what should I do, refuse to sell to them????


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

iArch being handed a PSE at the door is not standard range practice, nor is knowing all the numbers and where to find them. At that time I was a sailor and kayaker looking at other interesting sports and doing a once weekly lesson on a Polaris. I was not a star recruit, I just stuck with it. [I still do.] In our different station we don't know what the numbers mean or what is right for us. You go grab an 18R or whatever the instructor gave you last time but you don't know that's draw weight. I think they do work with you if you ask, but as a plodding student I wasn't encouraged and I didn't realize you could ask. All I know is I want to practice off campus so I can maybe improve. I would lose most of what I built in the week between sessions. I had other sports on my mind. I might have had a sailing race that last weekend. So in a sense I am like your average dunderhead going to buy a bow. IMO we generally "don't know better."

I also wasn't encouraged or coordinated in terms of my subsequent OR purchase. I got that so I could have something to work on with my own OR settings. At that point I had had the Sage experience and educated myself somewhat. I looked around and identified stuff on bows I thought I'd need. They had now told me -- since I screwed up -- where to find the weights so I knew what that meant. But I basically learned trial and error, and it still wasn't some coordinated purchase with the Brain Trust.

I think you had an unusual experience as a coveted recruit. Your average lesson taker or worse, the people who buy before they even try, is not going to know a lot to select wisely. You're almost admitting that the teachers and others are the ones with the knowledge but then blaming the students for not seeking it out. But from our perspective you won't even know what you don't know. I mean, to me, the fact I went out and got a Sage and then a SF reflected my own initiative and interest. We should encourage customers' eagerness to make the semi-commitment of plunking down not blame them for being dense. You just hope a ton of money is not wasted making mistakes. My Sage limb mistake cost another $70 or so.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Enough of us are going down the street to a public park to shoot outdoor distances that the local indoor range where I live is expanding to 50 yards. I do think ranges respond but in the context of this thread what is the stimuli for the response? The overbow is already sold. There is no disincentive unless the customer gets savvy or the competition so tough, that you can't get away with it and would be punished for doing so.

The response is build up archery enough that most everyone knows where to go for a well suited recurve. That you'd go to that shop for compounds but everyone buys their recurves at Store B. That includes shops that are either omnivorous or cater to recurves. But until then the recurve nook can be exploited, some shops reasonably, others less so.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

caspian said:


> what does the use of compound bows have to do with hunting? there isn't a single one of the clubs I can think of locally (about 12 or so) that has any mention it at all, and compounds are about 50% of the bow makeup.
> 
> I can think of a few foam targets, but this is one of them, and it's used for kids parties.


It's their club and they can run it anyway they want. This club caters strictly to recurve shooters and they are entitled so to do. Plenty of places for other people to go.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Personally I respond more to the quality of the range and the pleasantness of the people there, whether it's a comfortable place to visit over and over and prepare. I've been to places with and without taxidermy. I don't really have a strong reaction either way. I can see where it could bother some even if not me. I don't mind the hunting I just think that purpose (presented in a "trad" bow) plus a primary compound-orientation is the recipe for the overbowing. If a place has a target orientation they know better. If someone who works there gives recurve lessons, they know better (one place I know has a compound and hunter orientation but I assume because this employee is there routinely giving recurve lessons, the stock is in reasonable weights). It's more like when it's the equivalent of candy next to the register -- I can sell you that if you want it -- that it's a problem.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Azzurri said:


> iArch being handed a PSE at the door is not standard range practice, nor is knowing all the numbers and where to find them. At that time I was a sailor and kayaker looking at other interesting sports and doing a once weekly lesson on a Polaris. I was not a star recruit, I just stuck with it. [I still do.] In our different station we don't know what the numbers mean or what is right for us. You go grab an 18R or whatever the instructor gave you last time but you don't know that's draw weight. I think they do work with you if you ask, but as a plodding student I wasn't encouraged and I didn't realize you could ask. All I know is I want to practice off campus so I can maybe improve. I would lose most of what I built in the week between sessions. I had other sports on my mind. I might have had a sailing race that last weekend. So in a sense I am like your average dunderhead going to buy a bow. IMO we generally "don't know better."
> 
> I also wasn't encouraged or coordinated in terms of my subsequent OR purchase. I got that so I could have something to work on with my own OR settings. At that point I had had the Sage experience and educated myself somewhat. I looked around and identified stuff on bows I thought I'd need. They had now told me -- since I screwed up -- where to find the weights so I knew what that meant. But I basically learned trial and error, and it still wasn't some coordinated purchase with the Brain Trust.
> 
> I think you had an unusual experience as a coveted recruit. Your average lesson taker or worse, the people who buy before they even try, is not going to know a lot to select wisely. You're almost admitting that the teachers and others are the ones with the knowledge but then blaming the students for not seeking it out. But from our perspective you won't even know what you don't know. I mean, to me, the fact I went out and got a Sage and then a SF reflected my own initiative and interest. We should encourage customers' eagerness to make the semi-commitment of plunking down not blame them for being dense. You just hope a ton of money is not wasted making mistakes. My Sage limb mistake cost another $70 or so.


Azzurri perhaps you have been misinformed. My new-archer experience _wasn't _unusual. I was _not_ simply handed a PSE at the door. Try before you buy is a common occurrence. There's a difference between online/window shopping vs actually trying on clothes at a mall before you purchase. In Tennis you can pay a fee to demo rackets. Many players have more than one racket, and are willing to let a trustworthy person borrow it before purchasing. The difference here is taking the initiative to simply ask.

Some of us would rather not risk wasting money on trial and error mistakes, so we trust those who are in-the-know. For the record, I was not any sort of recruit at all. I was just a new archer, like the rest, wanting to buy their own equipment. Maybe you should do a little research before citing my 'unusual' experience.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Expose people to the possibilities. Educate and then advocate. Knowledge fixes these issues. And if you think shops are not open to getting better, you would be talking to someone other than the owner. The owner has a vested stake in improving his product every day and in any way. That leads to profit.


Not every shop owner is Mr. Spock, though. Humans are prone to sub conscious, irrational bias - even business people at the highest levels (cf. Thinking, Fast and Slow byDaniel Kahneman).


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I agree that there should be a demo aspect to buying recurve stuff. I shot at a compound oriented place Saturday and as I do my own thing I'm watching someone try different compounds and then have one adjusted to them. I wish recurves were like that. I applaud local efforts in that direction, eg, X10.

The reality is mail order trial and error for most of us. You see something you like, you research, you ask around. Maybe if you're lucky someone shows up to the range and you can try it. You buy, you see how it turns out. This becomes a more informed process as you move along.

I appreciate what the Certain Range did for me but disagree with your take on what happened so I am going to agree to disagree on the rest.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> If the target archers want us to cater to them more then they need to stop coming in and trying my products and then come back the next week with the identical item they purchased from Amazon. THEN expect me to show them how to use it for free.


Showrooming is a problem for many different businesses where customers would like to see things in person, from shoes to electronics. This isn't new. It happened back in the mail order by, well, mail and phone days, too. It is just more prevalent now because on-line shopping is so much easier than mail order used to be. 

So, how can shop make me want to to spend extra dollars with them rather than save money? Well, I do know one thing that doesn't work: charging 30% *above* MSRP/list. One of the local shops charges $5 for super rests, for example, and pretty much 30% above list all around. I did buy a bow from them because they gave me decent service when my GF and I sought out a coach for her (I know better than to try that myself - seen how that can go with others). But, while I'm willing to not get a discount to support a brick and mortar store, paying 30% extra above that is too much for me be interested in doing on an ongoing basis.

Also, demo fees can be tricky. I think they can work for bows. I've rented guns, for example, to try a wide range of models at the gun store range. And paying for that opportunity seemed reasonable - I was using *rental* guns, so paid rental. But at a shoe section at a store that sold dance shoes I saw a sign that said you owed them $20 tried on shoes and didn't buy any. Well, what if I don't like the shoes or the fit? I owe money? Nothin' doing, not gonna shop there. Yet I understand why the store implemented the fee. I don't know whether it is working for them or not.


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## Bow Dad (Feb 4, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> Target archery is big at our shop but not our bread and butter.
> 
> If the target archers want us to cater to them more then they need to stop coming in and trying my products and then come back the next week with the identical item they purchased from Amazon. THEN expect me to show them how to use it for free.
> 
> ...


I don't get this.... We are very loyal to our shop. We often order from them and wait for things we could order and get quickly online. We want and need them to thrive so that they will be there for our Archery Journey.


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## PKayser (Jan 10, 2008)

My local shop does a pretty good job catering to just about everyone. Of course they push the product lines that they carry a little harder than the ones they don't but not to overly aggressive. They have a small JOAD program that my daughter is involved with. They have the hunting crowd covered too. They do a pretty good job keeping their shooting lanes filled for additional revenue. But I've been in on a few occasions to use a lane and there have been people that were shooting that just had no clue. This last time I was in shooting with my daughter. There was a family of three, mom, dad and son. The son was "teaching" his parents how to shoot. He was so over bowed himself that he couldn't pull back the string to touch his face for any kind of anchor. The mother was the opposite, I feared she was going to pull the arrow off of the rest, her "anchor" was somewhere behind her head. The dad was pinching the nock to draw back. Meanwhile, there was a small group of 20 something getting a group lesson and shooting very impressive for first timers. 

At one point I was a little concerned for our safety and asked the owners son what the deal was with this family. He said they were offered lessons but that they didn't want any. He did go over and tell the mom that she needed to stop pulling the bow back behind her head and addressed my safety concern. 

My point is, some people come into a store and know that they are already experts and no advice or help from a retailer is going to change their mind. Retailers that can inform their customers are great, but customers need to want to be informed and seek out retailers with that ability.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Warbow said:


> Frustrated today: A father and daughter showed up at the public range today with a shiny new bow and arrows fresh from the largest archery store in the area. The girl is perhaps 10-12, under 5' and they set her up with a 30# Ragim with a 27" wood riser - now, of course, isn't 30# OTF, and she *can* pull it back to anchor, once. Grrr...
> 
> The father and daughter had showed up to the range earlier, but we weren't able to accommodate them today as walk ins, so we talked with them about options and opportunities and hoped to be able to accommodate them soon. Nice family. They left and showed up to shoot on their own at the range with their new rig as we were packing club supplies away. We were surprised by the draw weight, but that was what the store recommended to them, apparently in part because they had a limited inventory of left handed bows (and, it seems, think of the limbs as being left handed? I guess they sell them as a unit with the riser :dontknow: )
> 
> ...


I fell for this once -- still have my daughter's first 25 pound bow as a useless wall hanging. She shot it a dozen times at Cabela's before we bought it but it was still way too much for her.

What might solve the problem is a starter kit that contained two sets of limbs -- say 12 pound and 20 pound. Sort of a Father's day, Mother's day special.

We just have to find the would-be archers before they go to the store.


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## PaloAltoJeff (Jul 17, 2014)

The shops are partly to blame, and machismo takes care of the rest. I get guys coming to where I teach all the time who feel like they are man enough to shoot 40#. 
I ask them if they want to shoot high weight or high scores. Then I have them try my 10# bows from Quintessential and once they see the difference they never complain. 
http://www.qproductsarchery.com/bows.htm Her pricing is awesome, too. Hard to beat a full setup for $150. Add in some Carbon Impact Super Club arrows and you're golden. 
And at 10#, you don't even really need a tab 

Many shops also cater to a hunting crowd rather than to target archers, so the stock heavier bows for that market. 

Either way, even 20# is too much for many new archers, yet that's what even Boy Scouts still starts kids at, which I think is a big disservice.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It's not the store's fault. They try to shift what's in the stock. It's more of a problem if store is first stop for anyone who's considering archery. Clubs and archery programs should think how to market so that they get them first.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

zal said:


> It's not the store's fault. They try to shift what's in the stock. It's more of a problem if store is first stop for anyone who's considering archery. Clubs and archery programs should think how to market so that they get them first.


I totally agree and I'm open to suggestions.
I get many people come in after they bought the wrong bow somewhere else.
I would love to have them come to me first.
There is a general consensus that shops are more expensive as someone mentioned but mine is not. I keep my prices competitive as I can with the internet places.
Many times I'm the same or less than Lancaster but that doesn't seem to matter.
Many come in to use my range and sometimes I cringe at how they shoot.
I sometimes offer help but some just don't want it.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

zal said:


> It's not the store's fault. They try to shift what's in the stock. It's more of a problem if store is first stop for anyone who's considering archery. Clubs and archery programs should think how to market so that they get them first.


The store decides what they order to have in stock. When they dump heavy limbs on newbies who have a normal low level of newbie knowledge the stores are knowingly ripping off customers for short term gain. It would be better for both the archers and the stores if the stores would think in more of a long term and honest manner.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

TER said:


> The store decides what they order to have in stock. When they dump heavy limbs on newbies who have a normal low level of newbie knowledge the stores are knowingly ripping off customers for short term gain. It would be better for both the archers and the stores if the stores would think in more of a long term and honest manner.


Believe it or not, not everyone in archery come from the same school of thought. So far, at least in this part of the country, long-term success has been in keeping bows in stock that folks will buy, and sad as it may be to those of us who have a different perspective, that's heavier weight bows. Just try to sell a 25# bow to someone who came in to buy what they "think" they want. All the "proper form development" talk in the world is usually just met with "I'll take the 45# one". In this regard, at least in this part of the country, the stores are thinking long term and doing their part to satisfy a need for bows. The fact they are not doing it like some of us think best is irrelevant and is our problem based on our bias, warranted or not, and not theirs.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

The way I see it, the issue is not with what is right for the shop or a proper business decision, but rather that if too many suppliers keep overbowing people then it has some serious implications for the longevity of the sport! What we need are more stores like LAS throughout the country so that we people can go and get advice on what to do from a supplier that has such a stock that they can try different weights and brands to find what fits the best. I love the concept of running a pro-shop like a tailor!


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

The problem with wanting to run a pro shop like a tailor is simply that most of your small archery businesses cannot afford to keep that much inventory. What we always do is advise people to stay at low poundage whenever they are buying their first bow. I have never, and neither have my coworkers, ever recommended buying bows over 25 lbs for a first bow.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Last_Bastion said:


> The way I see it, the issue is not with what is right for the shop or a proper business decision, but rather that if too many suppliers keep overbowing people then it has some serious implications for the longevity of the sport! What we need are more stores like LAS throughout the country so that we people can go and get advice on what to do from a supplier that has such a stock that they can try different weights and brands to find what fits the best. I love the concept of running a pro-shop like a tailor!


I would add that most all new archers, whether they received online advice or pro-shop advice, are pretty much guaranteed to come out overbowed at first. At least, that's my observation on my take on proper start-up. The sale is not where the disconnect is occurring. 

What initiated the sale is more important - did the archer come off the street with an idea to try archery or from proper initial training to know what they actually need? That is the question of whether shops, LAS or pro-shop, are also charged with prior training programs as well as sales of equipment. Where, it's not the business model of most. 

I'd say LAS is no less immune to overbowing folks than anyone else - they can only guess over the Internet. A pro-shop can only guess by sight or suggest a start based on the generic. This all does not preclude Warbow's observation, which is kinda blatant in irresponsible sales if the buyer did not push for his own desire.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Shops have to buy these bows and if they don't get an ROA (return on investment) there is no economic reason to have them in stock. 

And on the subject of overbowing: Coach He Who shall Not Be Named apparently does that. Saw a teenage boy at the local range struggling (shaking every inch of the way) to pull back his bow and he was wearing a t -shirt from a camp or group that Coach HWSNBN runs. I thought kid probably made a poor decision when purchasing a bow, but then perhaps this is what he was told to get.

earned later that this coach sometimes overbows the kids and then tells them to "practice more." Which leads to injuries which prevent people from shooting.

Makes no sense to me, but I am not a coach. What do I know. Could have been bad decision on the part of either shooter or coach. I have no idea.

Another young lady was shooting arrows between 500 and 600 spine because HWSNBN gave them to her. No. really. Gave them to her. x10s.

Which makes no sense to me but see above re: I am not a coach. she can't group them at any distance try as she might. I bet she'd kick butt if she had the RIGHT ARROWS.

If a parent walks into a shop and wants this stuff because their coach tells them to get it even though it makes no sense a shop owner may as well sell same, make some money, and keep that info in the back of his/her mind. "This is what you told me your coach wanted you to get. So I got it for you. You might want to have a chat with him." 

Because you certainly can't say, "Are you out of your mind?" 

All you can say is "Debit or credit."

.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

StarDog said:


> Because you certainly can't say, "Are you out of your mind?"
> 
> All you can say is "Debit or credit."


No, I would ask, "Are you out of your mind?!"

I guess I'm fortunate that I don't have to deal with another coach's recommendations, because I am the coach!

I stock regular bows, arrows and accessories that we sell all the time, and special order most custom bow orders. We order 2 or 3 times a week now, and can get items so quickly, I don't need to carry everything. 

For the most part, with proper guidance, folks don't mind a little wait for their equipment. We actively discourage making an impulse purchase, and encourage use of our rental bows before making a decision. 

We spend time with our customers. We know them by name (yes, it's like Cheers, lol), and make sure their needs are met. However, there is a fine line between investing in a customer and allowing them to waste your time.

Here's the return. They keep coming back. They bring their family, they bring their friends, they bring their co-workers. Then they all want lessons and bows. 

I haven't, yet, had a customer have a consultation with us then go and buy their bow elsewhere. We sit them down, at a desk, show them options, write up the order. 

Yes, we're only 4 months old, and it's early days, but I do have a degree in retail management, several years at the helm, I love people, I love to serve, and I know archery. 

It's not that hard. Any archery store owner, who loves archery, should want the best for their customers, regardless of sales or retail experience. The passion makes it easy.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> Yes, we're only 4 months old, and it's early days, but I do have a degree in retail management, several years at the helm, I love people, I love to serve, and I know archery.
> It's not that hard. Any archery store owner, who loves archery, should want the best for their customers, regardless of sales or retail experience. The passion makes it easy.


It shows


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

TER, I agree - the shop decides what weight limbs to carry, and how much inventory to carry. It's just as easy to key in a part number for a pair of 18lb limbs as it is a part number for 35lb limbs. Order small; order often; sales order before purchase orders.

Safety at the range - A preemptive private lesson is mandatory at my range before someone can just come shoot on their own. It can either be a fullblown 1hr15min lesson with all the trimmings, or a spartan 30minute version that concentrates just on the safety protocols and basic form/shot setup. But it's my range, my rules. I'm not trying to be BassPro. My defined mission is to teach people how to shoot, guide those who want to shoot well, put people in equipment specs that are a good fit for them, and offer/maintain a comfortable/safe/enjoyable venue for a growing archery community to engage with each other and prosper in their archery pursuits. 

Kudos to Lynda (Ms Speedmaster) for 'seeing it' so clearly. Keep your on-hand inventory shallow, order small, order often (sell, then buy - that's how you avoid write downs). If a shop has a range attached to it, then it's a simple matter to have a few range bows with 4 or 5 sets of limbs on-hand (16lb, 18lb, 20lb, 22lb, 24lb) for the tire kickers to try out (paying range shooting fees in the process), so they can actually experience the pleasure of proper draw weight. Once they settle on draw weight, then they can place the order for their bow and it will likely be in in a week. I'm not going to be panting and angsting after someone who can't wait a week for a setup that fits them well - that's a personality type that is more than likely doomed to dissatisfaction anyway.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

StarDog said:


> Shops have to buy these bows and if they don't get an ROA (return on investment) there is no economic reason to have them in stock. All you can say is "Debit or credit."


The key component to longevity is ROI (investment of shop owner's equity), of which, ROA is related. Formula being: Profit Margin x Asset Turnover x Financial Leverage (vendor credit). In this regard, it's easy to make good return on the assets and still go broke on investment. But, you are correct in that if assets are not moving, no turnover, then margin is lower and leverage is lower. How to make each of these factors work more efficiently is key, but in the end, correct again, as if you are not seeing enough "cash, debit, or credit", none matter.

How to make return happen is the beauty of having different business models. The most successful shop in our area accommodates "testers" of equipment with rentals and lessons, BUT, they protect themselves by charging for lessons then knocking the lesson price off the purchase if you buy the bow. In the case of compounds, they charge $25 upfront to measure you, fit bow, test drive, then, will knock that off as well on the purchase.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I will also take the cost of a lesson off the price of a bow if they purchase it from my shop.

As for ROI, the purchaser also needs to know their purchase won't be obsolete after a month of shooting. 

Since I am a coach I will comment on this subject. 

New shooters do not have the muscle coordination to shoot consistently without shaking a little, but once they start shooting their form and strength develops quickly. A shooter that cannot easily draw 20 pounds today may find it is too easy within a couple of weeks of shooting. With that being said, IMO, the purchase of the 25b bow would be a better investment for the shooter. Almost all new shooters struggle at first, but to expect them to purchase a light poundage bow and then heavier limbs within a month is not good business sense either.

You all can blame the shops all you want but believe it or not WE do have the shooters best interest in mind. Just because you see a new shooter struggling does not mean the shop did them an injustice.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> You all can blame the shops all you want but believe it or not WE do have the shooters best interest in mind. Just because you see a new shooter struggling does not mean the shop did them an injustice.


That's a bet I would take in most cases. You make valid points, of course, but I think most shops aren't offering the expertise or kind of support you are talking about. They sell a bow people will "grow into", but that only works if the person A) shoots more than once a week, say 3 times a week, with days off, B) doesn't get injured and give up, C) doesn't get frustrated and give up.

The topic of what draw weight to choose is a controversial one in the trad forum when first time would be archers ask about it. Financially, people want to buy their final bow right off the bat - typically a hunting weight bow 45# in the case of the trad shooters, or competition weight in the case of target shooters. And buying limbs you'll transition through is expensive, and not everybody has a program where they can borrow limbs. So I don't think there is a universal answer to this issue.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Warbow said:


> That's a bet I would take in most cases. You make valid points, of course, but I think most shops aren't offering the expertise or kind of support you are talking about. They sell a bow people will "grow into", but that only works if the person A) shoots more than once a week, say 3 times a week, with days off, B) doesn't get injured and give up, C) doesn't get frustrated and give up.
> 
> The topic of what draw weight to choose is a controversial one in the trad forum when first time would be archers ask about it. Financially, people want to buy there final bow right off the bat - typically a hunting weight bow 45# in the case of the trad shooters, or competition weight in the case of target shooters. And buying limbs you'll transition through is expensive, and not everybody has a program where they can borrow limbs. So I don't think there is a universal answer to this issue.


I do agree with you but I don't think it's fair to blame the shop for what a person does or does not do with their bow after they get home with it.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> That's a bet I would take in most cases. You make valid points, of course, but I think most shops aren't offering the expertise or kind of support you are talking about. They sell a bow people will "grow into", but that only works if the person A) shoots more than once a week, say 3 times a week, with days off, B) doesn't get injured and give up, C) doesn't get frustrated and give up.
> 
> The topic of what draw weight to choose is a controversial one in the trad forum when first time would be archers ask about it. Financially, people want to buy there final bow right off the bat - typically a hunting weight bow 45# in the case of the trad shooters, or competition weight in the case of target shooters. And buying limbs you'll transition through is expensive, and not everybody has a program where they can borrow limbs. So I don't think there is a universal answer to this issue.


Warbow, I think you right! There is no universal answer, as "overbowed" or "incorrect" is too relative. You can't save them all  The world of archery is very big, and not everyone or every archer subscribes to the same channel.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> I do agree with you but I don't think it's fair to blame the shop for what a person does or does not do with their bow after they get home with it.


Part of hooking up a person with the right bow is matching the bow with their requirements, though. Most people will be casual archers who shoot infrequently. They should only buy bows that they can shoot comfortably right now. However, I know that most people also think they will be shooting more than they, or their kids, actually will because that is how they justify buying the bow. And I know that many people actually will practice archery multiple times a week. And, you are right, I can't magically know exactly who is who. So I understand the issues for bow shops. What I can say is that from a instructors standpoint that it is better to err on the light side than the heavy side - easy for me to say, though, since I don't sell bows


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> What I can say is that from a instructors standpoint that it is better to err on the light side than the heavy side - easy for me to say, though, since I don't sell bows


Warbow, that's the whole disconnect in this thread. Two seemingly related things by use, proper instruction and selling bows; whereas, both are independently market driven on making a profit. A bow shop can only exist if it makes profit.

So, if your margin on bow price is basically set by the market, then you can only meet or beat the market to stay in business by selling bows - turnover of inventory.

If your time spent given lessons is income too, unless you are giving away your time, then it is market driven to have its own margin (time spent/lesson fee).

You can't give lessons without charging and you can't sell bows without charging. You can't properly instruct someone who only wants to buy a bow without giving up lesson money to make bow money. The net wash on your total return is then -0-.

If lessons drive more inventory turnover, and more inventory turnover drives more lessons, then, you have a winner!!! But, you need that kind of customer who wants to "pay" for both.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Warbow said:


> Part of hooking up a person with the right bow is matching the bow with their requirements, though. Most people will be casual archers who shoot infrequently. They should only buy bows that they can shoot comfortably right now. However, I know that most people also think they will be shooting more than they, or their kids, actually will because that is how they justify buying the bow. And I know that many people actually will practice archery multiple times a week. And, you are right, I can't magically know exactly who is who. So I understand the issues for bow shops. What I can say is that from a instructors standpoint that it is better to err on the light side than the heavy side - easy for me to say, though, since I don't sell bows


I think at shops where either the owner or their spouse/family/employee gives recurve lessons it seems like they get the draw weight issue. I sometimes go to a range that is compound and hunting heavy but the wife of one of the employees gives recurve lessons. They carry a different range of draw weights in their recurve nook, including lighter weights starting in the teens, than would similar shops. May or may not be related but they have probably the highest density of trad shooters in the attached range I've seen in town. I've been there days that's all that's shooting (at some other range they might be OR or BB -- or quickly have a sight on the woodie -- which I also find tangentially interesting). The ones that just have a Samick or PSE woodie hanging and don't seem to care if it sells also don't seem to have anyone in the range shooting them.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

XForce Girl said:


> I will also take the cost of a lesson off the price of a bow if they purchase it from my shop.
> 
> As for ROI, the purchaser also needs to know their purchase won't be obsolete after a month of shooting.
> 
> ...


I wish that you had a different opinion. I've had three young archers using my light limbs for several months at a time each because they were otherwise over-bowed.

A little extra money for a light set of limbs might save those folks hundreds of dollars on doctor bills and pain medication.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

HikerDave said:


> I wish that you had a different opinion. I've had three young archers using my light limbs for several months at a time each because they were otherwise over-bowed.
> 
> A little extra money for a light set of limbs might save those folks hundreds of dollars on doctor bills and pain medication.


I stand by my opinion, and I'm not talking about over bowing a child to the point of injury. I would never recommend a bow to someone that they couldn't pull all the way back at least a few times.
But, there is nothing wrong with a new shooter exerting a little muscle power to pull a bow back. Exercise is good for you and too many of todays kids are weak from not having to do any physical activity.

Maybe we have different opinions on what "Over Bowed" means. 
To me being over bowed is when you cannot get the bow all the way back OR you start to shake after a few shots. Being just generally out of shape and not knowing the proper way to draw and hold a bow are different matters all together.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

So hows this. (and I'll never do THAT again, trust me). I was shooting at the indoor range in a local pro shop when in comes a family. They are absolute beginners, don't even now range protocol. As in -- someone was going to die because the shop owner wasn't paying attention, had no idea who they were etc. So I spent my range time teaching them etiquette and safety.

Next time, I"m stopping, not paying lane fees and telling the owner he might want to check his liability insurance. He he can comp my lane fees if I have to teach someone how not to ill themselves.

I mean -- seriously. You think a shop owner has a responsibility to make sure people aren't such complete novices that they're loading the bows facing each other? Or shooting and starting down the lane to pull arrows before everyone else is done?


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Hmm I would have been happy to teach a new archer etiquette, then I would have went in and told the shop owner to keep an eye on them to make sure they had it after I left. This is how our sport grows when we pass it on. Ya perhaps having them watch an etiquette video might be a good practice but I have a hi level of empathy for an archery shop owner willing to run a business he/she knows will never make them rich. They often have their hands full just trying to keep the doors open. I know our local shop relies on the volunteer help the shooters offer to the new folks who attend the range. Of course a good liability insurance policy wouldn't hurt either. 

When it it comes to over-bowing a lot of the shop owners aren't coaches they don't know the liabilities of trying to teach good form when the student is struggling to hold the bow back. They are trying to avoid the irate customer who is forced to buy more because they out grew the lightweight limbs in three months. Rather then blaming them perhaps trying to work with them to help them understand is a better approach.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Bowbender: he was alone in the shop, there was no business. This is just how he operates. He's always been that way. He has a guy working for him now who pays attention but the owner? couldn't care less.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

StarDog said:


> Bowbender: he was alone in the shop, there was no business. This is just how he operates. He's always been that way. He has a guy working for him now who pays attention but the owner? couldn't care less.


What a shame. 

Anyone who comes in to shoot at X10, who has never shot before, has to take a new archer orientation. No exceptions. We always have a staff member monitoring the range, too. 

It sounds as though that owner has gotten away lightly. 

I've seen complacency at archery ranges that has made me leave. Unfortunately a child was injured at a local range recently, i.e. shot in the head... because of range complacency.


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

I went Into local,shop to order some 1516 for my rent-a-kid. He tried to sell us some 500 gold tips because they only stock GT carbon? When he looked the order up from his wholesaler "what's a 1214"?. I had to,grab his order book
and show him the shafts and points I wanted. This shop,has been owned by his parents since the 60's and he has worked ther most of his life. I go to Lancaster almost all the time now unless I need something now and they have it. They just started stocking a few samicks. I watched him show the new buyer of a Sage the step-thru string method !!!! I shoved my stringer towards them and he says, no this works better!


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

StarDog said:


> Bowbender: he was alone in the shop, there was no business. This is just how he operates. He's always been that way. He has a guy working for him now who pays attention but the owner? couldn't care less.


Ya I agree he needs to find a new profession, sell the business to someone who cares about the sport. 

I keep hoping that one or a group of the manufacturers will pool their resources and follow Apples lead to create company stores. Depending on the entrepreneur to create a market just isn't cutting it anymore. The lack of shooting venues here near Seattle is painful!


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

b0w_bender said:


> Ya I agree he needs to find a new profession, sell the business to someone who cares about the sport.
> 
> I keep hoping that one or a group of the manufacturers will pool their resources and follow Apples lead to create company stores. Depending on the entrepreneur to create a market just isn't cutting it anymore. The lack of shooting venues here near Seattle is painful!


All the compound and hunter folks love him. It's a guy thing. That said, he has a family member who may hopefully inherit it and this young person is terrific and a joy to be around. Fingers crossed.

I am not sure that archery will ever enjoy the sort of support and mass interest that other sports do.

A west Coast version of Lancaster Archery would be nice.......


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Folks, not to discount the need for range owners to maintain a level of safety in their operations, but I have been to sanctioned shoots where range safety was not the order of the day, and only the participants were the primary enforcement. Nobody door-checked anyone's level of training. Means nothing other than the future of archery and shop owners maintaining safe ranges are only a tiny bit related. The boogieman to archery will always rest within the participants.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Everyone signs a range release to use my range. And part of that release form is the range rules and range etiquette. I ask them if they have any questions if I need to explain any of the rules they may not understand.

Then I watch them shoot for a few minutes, if everything is ok then I leave them alone to shoot. 

I have had to remind a few people of the rules and on a couple of occasions the people have stormed out never to return. Mostly due to them shooting the banners, lights or the wall. The range form states the fees for shooting these things.
I have no problem asking people to leave if they refuse to follow the rules and create an unsafe environment.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

XForce Girl said:


> I stand by my opinion, and I'm not talking about over bowing a child to the point of injury. I would never recommend a bow to someone that they couldn't pull all the way back at least a few times.
> But, there is nothing wrong with a new shooter exerting a little muscle power to pull a bow back. Exercise is good for you and too many of todays kids are weak from not having to do any physical activity.
> 
> Maybe we have different opinions on what "Over Bowed" means.
> To me being over bowed is when you cannot get the bow all the way back OR you start to shake after a few shots. Being just generally out of shape and not knowing the proper way to draw and hold a bow are different matters all together.


Yes. We have greatly differing opinions.

I'd go with what "Coach Will" at learn-archery.org says, whoever he is.

http://www.learn-archery.com/proper-draw-weight.html

I would call someone over-bowed when they can't shoot at a reasonably busy range for an hour or so, or shoot at home where there are no delays between ends for around a half an hour. I would call a Junior Olympic archer overbowed if at their first tournament, they don't show up for the second half because they are exhausted and can't continue. Another sign of being overbowed would be a large difference in score between the second half of a tournament and the first.

I can see your point, though -- I didn't want to spend a bunch of money on my first bow, a Hoyt Excel, 36 pounds on the fingers, purchased at Archery Headquarters in Chandler. The thought of starting with an intermediate draw weight didn't occur to me, because I somehow thought I was buying an heirloom that I would keep forever. (Now the bow is equipped with light limbs and is one of my daughter's teaching bows for use by her students before they get their own.)


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

If you're pulling significantly too much weight for target shooting periods of work that can help cause tennis elbow, shoulder problems, etc.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

HikerDave said:


> Yes. We have greatly differing opinions.
> 
> I'd go with what "Coach Will" at learn-archery.org says, whoever he is.
> 
> ...


Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree. 
I read some of that website you quoted: and although some of his info is good he contradicts himself many times. 
For instance he stresses the importance of not over bowing an archer then he posts: "There is a really fine line between too heavy of a draw weight and one that is too light."

He then goes on to say HIS numbers are only recommendations and a starting point.


If you don't want to over bow any of the new archers you will need about a 3-5 pound draw bow for some of the weaklings I see.
You all are really over thinking this over bow thing, I would never do it to the point of hurting someone or making them engage in bad habits.
But I do feel that when you draw a bow back you need to feel some resistance and as you develop your form the bow will become easier to draw.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

For my calculus, if after a newbie has been shooting for a couple of months, if he/she can't shoot 35 or 40 arrows while maintaining controlled (almost) zero angle alignment (meaning that you're all stretched out at the margins), then he/she is overbowed. And from my observation, nothing will make a fledgling archer 'give up archery' more than being overbowed.

e.g. an idealized graphic of zero angle alignment:








In an ideal world, newbies come to the range for a few lessons and quite a few practice sessions, enabling them the time and repetition to develop some measure of archery-muscles tone, while maintaining good alignment and a controlled smooth release. Then they'll be 'in decent enough shape to' buy a limbweight that is enough of a challenge but doesn't compromise their form. So they buy the correct SF Axiom limbs for $80, shoot them for 4 or 5 months, then sell them for $40 and buy heavier limbs for $80. Then 6 or 8 months later they repeat that buy/sell process, and now they're into some decent weight range while protecting their form, and it's cost them an extra $80 in a year's time to do it right. Not a real stumbling block.

For the majority of newbies who are too impatient to do the above, well many of them are just future archery dropouts (injury, diminished interest due to huffing and puffing or lack or progress) and just don't know it yet.


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## VFX_Fenix (Feb 8, 2007)

I do know from my own experience as an Archery Associate (name that store) that trying to sell an appropriate bow to a new archer is a challenge on a number of levels but here are the top problems.

1) Inventory - With the focus of a shop bent more on Compound and Hunting sales over the target archer I tend to send virtually every target archer to online or local retailers with recommendations for what they should be buying based on their budget and needs because I have one or two (on a good day) bows that aren't hunting recurves. There is no mixing an matching limbs and risers though because the bows are inventoried as complete items and swapping a set of 15# limbs onto what was a 30# LH riser to make a 15# LH bow is completely out of the question because it messes up inventory and ordering a correct bow will require several weeks to get in.

2) Machismo - New are occasionally archers are completely bent on how heavy their bow is. I can't say how many times I've told a customer that the bow they want is too heavy for them but they insist that it's what they want and there's not a thing I can do to convince them otherwise. This may not be the archer themselves but the parent(s) or "expert buddies" who have come along to encourage or fund the purchase. I've had new archers balk when I suggest they start with a 20# bow because I've personally seen people who look like they pick things up for a living and can haul back on a 70# set of wheels but can't get into a decent anchor on a recurve of that weight. I've also seen the most unlikely people come in and rock a 50# recurve.

3) It's Shiny - Some people just get pulled into the look of a hunting recurve, which is fine... BUT, and refuse to see any reason not to just buy what I've got that looks cool and getting out the door.

4) The Management - I had repeatedly brought to the attention the need for more low poundage recurve bows to be stocked and suggestions for entry level ILF gear to be carried to accommodate the target archers that keep coming into the shop. A few times this was done at the request of the department manager but as the idea got kicked up the chain there was no one who could "find a way to make it work" and so the idea fell dead. Even requests to carry more of the few recurves that are low poundage in the shop were denied. 

Let's not even get into the possibility of actually selling appropriate spine arrows when the lightest arrow in the shop is either the Genesis Arrow or a 600 Center Shot. 

Now this is myself, my other coworkers are definitely in the camp of "More pounds" and "Make the Sale". I've seen them sell 30# bows to 8 year old kids and 55# long bows to customers who are new archers and are anchoring 6" in front of their faces because that's all the further back they can manage and a lot of that comes into their own personal experiences shooting wheels and a 50# compound is "no big deal". 

It's maddening on the sales side of things because there's not a whole lot to do aside from send people somewhere else with suggestions or give the customer what they want with what is in stock and keep advising against it.


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## chunkysushi (Sep 2, 2012)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> What a shame.
> 
> Anyone who comes in to shoot at X10, who has never shot before, has to take a new archer orientation. No exceptions. We always have a staff member monitoring the range, too.
> 
> ...


We do the same. We also get people arguing that they don't need it because they took one lesson 10 years ago at sleepaway camp All it takes is one incident to happen before the city/town bans it (at least where we're from)... keeping the range open takes priority over any ego's. Unfortunately I've been to ranges where the response to a child running onto a live line is a chuckle by the owner instead of a "omg something bad may have happened."


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

One thing I will do is that if I am at a public range and a beginning archer shows interest in my gear, or I overhear them having some major difficulties (like stringing etc). I will politely ask if they'd like some help. Then I will ask if they have had any lessons. And I usually ask where they got their gear because that gives me a general idea the type of advice they got. At which point I will direct them to our adult beginner program at the pro shop where I go (even though the owner is not high on my favorite person list) because I know they will get a good grounding with the coach who teaches that class. And I have never heard that shop sell a parent the wrong arrows for a youth shooter. The kids in the JOAD club have excellent coaching and I usually direct parents to that kind of thing. After that they're on their own. I've done my job.


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## WMalinak (Dec 10, 2010)

Nearly a hundred posts in this thread, and nobody from Michigan clubs?!?

We certainly see the same problem, and we aren't ambivalent...maybe just that the weather finally broke for us to get outside!

HOWEVER, I feel new archers (both junior & senior) that pass through the handful of local clubs I visit are lucky.
Most have a few experienced archers that:
1. Have access to simple club bows (or even loan out their own personal kit)
2. Stress form on correct/matching equipment (i.e., sizes & weights which archers can dominate) for a 3-6 months *before* purchasing! 
3. Advise on (specify or even broker) new/used purchases.

*I also have total confidence in our "local" (hour+ away) seller* -- Craig at ArrowSportArchery.
He knows his equipment and actively collaborates with instructors/coaches.
Nothing better than a call from Craig like: _I had her try those few sets of limbs...looks like 18# is best...you still good with that?_

==>BillM


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Check out this document from Canada federation for archery.

It's about long term development of archers with some very well thought out athlete paths.

On page 38-42 are recommended bow weights.. 

Too bad not more people use this formula..

View attachment bowweightsa.pdf


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## PaloAltoJeff (Jul 17, 2014)

I love this article

http://www.goldengatejoad.com/2012/...ective-archery-teaching-tools-2/#.VU-xBPlVhBc


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I have a 12 year old in our class that is so tiny she's about 4ft tall. Then I have another JOAD Shooter who is 13 years old and 5"8" tall and easily pulls 45 lbs. Don't tell me she's overbowed because she just won Bronze at Gator Cup shooting up as a Cadet.

That chart isn't very useful. Maybe for people who don't know anything about bows but for experienced archers it's not useful at all.

Those light weight bows are great for learning and borrowing, but nobody wants to buy one as their own personal bow. I've tried.


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## PaloAltoJeff (Jul 17, 2014)

There's a guy in my indoor league who competes with a Quintessential 10# bow and carbon arrows at 2200 spine, and he shoots really well.
The 10# bow is very demanding of good form, but also really allows the archer to develop it, so it's a great training tool. I like shooting them just for fun. You don't even need a tab


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## PaloAltoJeff (Jul 17, 2014)

Xforce, you're extrapolating from the specific to the general, which you can't do. 

Yes, not everyone is overbowed at 20#, but in my experience with hundreds of students, the VAST majority are overbowed at even 16# when they are a rank novice.
1 or 2 kids who have been shooting for a while and can pull 45# are the exception, not the rule. 

If you can't, for 30 arrows, hold full draw for a good 15 seconds (yes, that's long, but we're talking about novices) with no shaking, then you're overbowed as a learner. 
If you can't even plant your finger on your face at all (which is true for most novices with 20# bows), then you're overbowed.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

No, I'm making a point. You guys want everyone to use some chart. Rather than analyze new archers independently.

I also have had hundreds of students and many of them pretty successful. I know what over bowed is and I know what it looks like.

But, the point you all seem to keep missing is that people are going to do what they want no matter what I recommend to them. Especially new shooters.
The ones who have been shooting for a while and I have had some time teaching them and coaching them.... those are the ones who listen to sound advise.

On a side subject... from all of you more experienced coaches. I want your opinion on this scenario.

If someone is a new shooter and shooting the minimum poundage you recommend, how long do they need to shoot at that poundage to become proficient and ready to either move up in poundage or consider purchasing their own bow? generally they would be shooting a few times a week.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

If I remember correctly, Khatuna's criteria for correct bow weight for students is being able to hold at full draw without collapse for 1 minute, and be able to shoot 120 arrows in a day. Though I wouldn't hold an absolute beginner to the 120 per day.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Best peice of archery equipment I've ever bought have been my 26# SF prem carbons. 

XForce is right that people are going to buy what they are going to buy. Especially people coming into the sport with no previous exposure. 

However, I think and it's certainly a fact for me personally; you can't learn proper body positioning when you are fighting the bow.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

dchan said:


> Check out this document from Canada federation for archery.
> 
> It's about long term development of archers with some very well thought out athlete paths.
> 
> ...


That should, with out a doubt, be added your sticky thread


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Dacer said:


> That should, with out a doubt, be added your sticky thread



I was planning to add it but I need to rework the pdf's or images for better display.

In response to the comment about a case by case basis, I totally agree. Each athlete needs to be evaluated. The point of the chart I posted, and the document if you read it all the way through, is for the long term enjoyment of the sport. If we are, as instructors and coaches going to try to grow the sport, there has to be some better understanding on what it takes to build a good platform of fundamentals. There are always going to be outstanding athletes, or ones that don't fit the norm. But for the general public or new athletes, we need to be aware of some of the physical limitations of the human body. What kind of training it takes to get there safely and properly. How many people do you know that have started too high and injured them selves? How many friends or athletes have you dealt with that in their declining years needed knee replacement, had other injuries because they abused their body as children (I'm included in this by the way). By really starting out right, we can do our youth and other athletes a favor down the line, with good training and proper selection. I know of a great deal of archers that have injured themselves by pushing the time table too fast after a slight strain or just wanting to get to a higher poundage because they felt they had too.

I've read the whole document and it's good sound advice. Again there are always going to be exceptions but the document is well written and from what I can tell well researched.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

XForce Girl said:


> No, I'm making a point. You guys want everyone to use some chart. *Rather than analyze new archers independently*.


and my point was that there is some good information out there. Well researched information. Not that we want everyone use the chart, but look at some of the research and learn from it.. *Then* evaluate each archer with more understanding.



XForce Girl said:


> On a side subject... from all of you more experienced coaches. I want your opinion on this scenario.
> 
> If someone is a new shooter and shooting the minimum poundage you recommend, how long do they need to shoot at that poundage to become proficient and ready to either move up in poundage or consider purchasing their own bow? generally they would be shooting a few times a week.


I wish we had a shop/range that allowed for multiple days per week of shooting. The fact of the matter here in our neck of the woods is very often it's 1-2 times a month for many of the kids. Many of these kids that don't get out and do physical activity on a regular basis (adults too for that matter) so it can often take 3-4 months if not longer for some of our people to become proficient even with a very light weight bow. For some of them, our Saturday morning program is the only exercise they get. We have students that have been shooting regularly for over a year and yet 16lbs might be considered over bowed. Some will not make it through a 2hr session of straight shooting with that weight.

As you mention, each has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The point for some is how do we "hold them back for their benefit"?

I'm sure we have lost students because we were unwilling to let the archer move up in DW or adding weight to the bow in the form of a stabilizer. In many of these cases however the student was unable to keep all 6 arrows on a 122cm target from 15M after 1 hr of shooting, or they were taking breaks every other end because they were "too tired" to pull the bow back or hold the bow up.

Then there are others that come and in 1-2 ends they are starting to show they can "dominate" the DW of the light weight bows and we will move them right up to 12-14-16lb bows and beyond. In some cases some of them come back the next week and ask to shoot the lighter weight bows because the next day after shooting, they were "extremely sore" and realized for them selves that they were over bowed. 

There are many different types of athletes and archers. We need to evaluate each one. Agreed for some shop owners you have to sell them what they want but good guidance goes a long way. It sounds like you (XForceGirl) try to do the right thing and I don't think we are so far off. I think the contention is that not all of us fall into that category of "you have to use the chart" but I would like to see (and I'm sure this is Warbow's point as well) better understanding of the people selling equipment so that we don't see so often the kid at the range that is unable to lift their rig, let alone shoot it safely for more than 1 or 2 ends.

And to respond directly to XForceGirl's question,

The way our club operates, for those that will continue to shoot with us, is we encourage them to NOT buy anything yet. We encourage them to shoot with us. If they commit to multiple sessions with the club, and they demonstrate that they will care for the gear properly (or the parent will) we will check out gear for them to use and learn with. As they get stronger and better, they can trade out the gear and move up. When they are ready to purchase gear, we will assist and guide them to help them purchase a riser (or what ever other gear they want to add) and commit to them that they can check out different weight limbs (ILF) until they slowly get to the weight they feel is a good working weight. Then they can research and purchase limbs that match where they might be for a long time.

Things like tabs, arm guards, etc we do encourage them to start trying different styles/designs as soon as possible and purchasing these type of things for themselves. These are things that they can then customize for themselves. 

In her scenario, it might be 1-2 weeks or it might be 1 month, to upgrade.. then maybe another month. 

There is one shop owner here in SF that used to offer one limb upgrade after purchase (for bolt on limbs), for a good discount or even free from what I hear. (depending on how long the student holds onto the gear).


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

dchan said:


> Check out this document from Canada federation for archery.
> 
> It's about long term development of archers with some very well thought out athlete paths.
> 
> ...


Everyone concerned about youth archery should read and understand this document.


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## PaloAltoJeff (Jul 17, 2014)

XForce: I totally agree with you that you need to evaluate each person. 

The charts and other materials referenced aren't meant as mandates. 
The key takeaway is that they all recommend that people start at much lower weights than many traditional texts would have said. 

This is not because people are wimps, but because we now know that starting teaching with a lower weight makes the shooters learn faster and have more fun. 
It's also a relatively new option to have a decent recurve bow with a draw weight under 20#, so much of the old "start 'em at 20" mentality was because that's all you had to choose from. 


To your new question about how long should they shoot at a low weight, that also demands individual determination. 

I would say if they are consistently shooting over 200 out of 300 at 20 yards, then they can consider going up by 2 to 4 lbs. 
I don't recommend more than a 4 lb jump to prevent shoulder injuries. 

For a typical shooter, getting to 200 seems to take something in the range of 2000 to 4000 arrows, but that depends on how often they shoot and for how long. 

I've also had shooters who come on really strong, and who I have to tell to back off and not shoot every day until they get fatigued. Recovering from shoulder or back problems is a slow process and is a pain in the butt, so keeping their overall condition in mind is important, too.


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