# Arrow Selection "rules of thumb" for Oly. recurves



## limbwalker

I get about 3-5 PM's a day here, and another 2-3 emails a week about selecting arrows for recurves and barebow rigs. 

I thought it may be helpful to post some general "guidelines" I have stored in my head, based on many setups I've tuned for students and fellow archers.

Just like arrow selection charts, remember, these are starting points. Nothing else. YMMV is a given when it comes to tuning arrows from a bow shot with fingers.

So here goes:

*2500* spine (1214 Jazz) work from bows that are about 22# @ 22"

*2000* spine Medallion XR's or 1413 Jazz/Tribues work from bows that are about 24# at 24"

*1500* spine Medallion XR's and A/C/C's work from bows that are about 26# at 26"

*1200* spine CI Ultra Fast (5/15 Super Clubs) and 1150 spine A/C/C's work from bows that are about 28# at 28"

*1000* spine Victory VAP's, 10/20 Super Clubs and CX Nano SST's work from bows that are about 30# at 30"


(do you see a pattern there?)


*800* spine 15/25 Super Clubs, Victory VAP's and Nano SST's and Nano Pro's work from bows that are about 32# at 30"

*600* spine A/C/E's, X10's, NPX and SST's work from bows that are 40# at 30" (Rick McKinney gave me that little nugget in 2006, and I've never forgotten it).

*500* spine A/C/E's, X10's, NPX and SST's work from bows that are about 45# at 31"

*450* spine (what I use) A/C/E's, X10's, Nano SST's and Nano Pro Xtremes work from bows that are about 47# at 32"

These are some rules of thumb for recurve archers with normal stabilization. Barebow archers can expect to be on the slightly weak side with these arrows, and will need to lean toward a slightly stiffer solution (shorter shaft length, lighter point weight, stiffer shaft, less draw weight, more nock-end weight, etc.)

Hope that helps.

John


----------



## bruce_m

Great post John, as always thank you for the research and info.

Data is spot on for my son, XR1500's at 26, and he's moving to XR1100 slightly long for 28lbs.


----------



## Mulcade

Just to be clear. When you say 22", you mean 22" in arrow length, correct?


----------



## Ms. X Hunter

Thanks John!

I'm pretty sure that the 5/15 SCs are 1.500 spine, and the 10/20s are 1.200 spine.

We should make a "master" spine chart with this stuff.........


----------



## limbwalker

Ms. X Hunter said:


> Thanks John!
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the 5/15 SCs are 1.500 spine, and the 10/20s are 1.200 spine.
> 
> We should make a "master" spine chart with this stuff.........


They could be. If so, pardon the mistake.


----------



## limbwalker

Mulcade said:


> Just to be clear. When you say 22", you mean 22" in arrow length, correct?


Yes. 22" But with those 2000 XR's I've had kids shooting arrows from 22" to full length, and 18 to about 24 lbs. There really isn't anything else that they can shoot at those weights and lengths, if they are shooting out to 30 (or even 50) meters.


----------



## vlesiv

Was going to just ask in a separate thread, but will try here: could you, please, advice - which VAP V1 (with which inserts) will work with 36# and 29.5'' DL (which would probably be 39# OOF?). Thank you very much! Would like to try VAP arrows to compare with my Medallion Pros....


----------



## limbwalker

First of all, I am not sure I'd recommend an archer pay for V1 VAP's unless they were shooting 300+ at 70 meters. My wife's arrows are V6's (.006 straightness) and our preliminary 30M bare shaft tests proved to me they are more than good enough for her at this time. 

As for your spine, I'd look at a 700 spine arrow with 90 or 100 grain points. Those should be close.


----------



## steve morley

I was caught out when I first switched to Barebow, couldn't get my 610 Navs to bareshaft at all and all I really did was take Stab off, change from 3 under to Stringwalking, I ended up going with Carbon1 550's and 90g points. Carbon1 is a great arrow to experiment with to try and figure out your spine, a cheap arrow yet shoots way above it's price bracket.

VAPs haven't really taken off this side of the pond but they seem popular on your side. I just changed to Cheetah 3D's 525 with 20g inserts and 105g Tophat points 38# OTF, first 2 tourneys this year (Field/3D) have been PB scores so pretty happy with them. Others have complained they're not as tough as other brands but no issues so far.

Would be good to have a Barebow spine chart, think it would help a lot of people.


----------



## mrcina

I think the main problem in arrow spine choosing is the arrow length. People see someone tuned well their vaps 900 at 30.5" and 34#, they buy them, cut them to 27.5" and then can't get them to tune. If I remember correctly, viper once wrote that 1" on the arrow is around 50 in spine number. 
Very nice topic, maybe we could make a public sheet database where people could submit their arrow and their dw


----------



## limbwalker

Steve, VAP's are a much better value than C1's IMO. My wife's "cheap" V6 VAP's are still better than the C1's some of my students have used (before I advised them to switch). QC on C1's is just awful.


----------



## kshet26

So when we generically talk about arrow length, are we assuming standard amo? Or are we talking about shaft length without consideration of shaft past plunger?


----------



## steve morley

mrcina said:


> I think the main problem in arrow spine choosing is the arrow length.


Yes with my 27.25" draw it took some experimenting, got several sets of arrows now ranging from 500 to 660 spine, so a wise move to go cheap through this experimental stage.

John I was pretty happy with the C1's, with Vaps only IXPE sell them and they offer no cutting service (I'll have to invest in a saw at some point). Cheetah 3D's I got for WA3D, they also work pretty good for Field, a good start to the season I shot a 433 Field round last weekend on a tough up/down course with Siberian wind freezing us right to the bones. 460 is my best practice on home range flat course, so I got some ways to go yet.

ACC's and ACE's seem heavy, is thin diameter/heavy shaft better for windy long shots? For this WA3D (33y max) game I went for lightest mid diameter shaft I could find with good FOC 315g total with 125g up front makes a stable/fast arrow and good for the line cutters, maybe not so much an advantage for longer Field shots.


----------



## limbwalker

kshet - AMO arrow length. Nock groove to top of point.


----------



## dchan

And by top of point, we mean where the arrow shaft meets the arrow point. Just to be completely clear.

DC 

And thanks John.


----------



## erickatgta

Wow.. thanks. This is kind of posts we real need!


----------



## trajanbeil

Forgive my ignorance, but are 1516 Easton Platinum Plus arrows similar to 1500 spine Medallion XR's? I have 27" 1516 Platinum Plus arrows that I shoot at 22.5 lbs. They were recommended to me, so I got them without thinking much about the technicalities. They've shot well for the past 6 months, though to be honest I haven't tried any bow-tuning, since I'm still the weakest link in my bow's setup. Now I'm trying to learn more about the technical parts of archery...


----------



## dchan

trajanbeil said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but are 1516 Easton Platinum Plus arrows similar to 1500 spine Medallion XR's? I have 27" 1516 Platinum Plus arrows that I shoot at 22.5 lbs. They were recommended to me, so I got them without thinking much about the technicalities. They've shot well for the past 6 months, though to be honest I haven't tried any bow-tuning, since I'm still the weakest link in my bow's setup. Now I'm trying to learn more about the technical parts of archery...


a 1516 Platinum Plus would be close. 1400 ish spine. They are parallel shaft.. Probably a bit larger in diameter than the Medallion XR 1500. and I think the point weight is about the same.

since you don't list the rest of your particulars it would only be a guess if you are in the correct range.. is that 22.5lbs measured, what you think it might be or the rating on the limbs. What's the rest of your shooting setup..

DC


----------



## kshet26

limbwalker said:


> kshet - AMO arrow length. Nock groove to top of point.



How much does the amount of shaft past the plunger affect spine? Say I have 2 shooters with 1200 spine arrows(28" in length) and being shot at #28 otf. If one shooter has 1" of shaft past the plunger at full draw and the other had 4" past the plunger at full draw, would the 2nd shooter's arrows be noticably weaker?


----------



## limbwalker

In theory, the 2nd archer's shaft would react stiffer since the span between the string at loose and the plunger, is shorter. Again, in theory. Every archer and every archer's setup is unique. These are just starting points. The rest is up to the coach and archer.


----------



## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> kshet - AMO arrow length. Nock groove to top of point.





dchan said:


> And by top of point, we mean where the arrow shaft meets the arrow point. Just to be completely clear.


I'm not sure if you are referring to the same measurement.

It's pretty common to refer to arrow length as "BOP", that is, nock groove to "Back of Point". However, for archers using clickers, knowing the total length from the groove to the _end_ of the point is a key measure, because it is the point that pulls through the clicker, not the end of the shaft. So there isn't just one universal arrow length measurement that meets all needs.

ATA "Actual Arrow Length" (ATA/ARR-201-2008 (latest I have)) is essentially all BOP, and not what some would intuitively consider to be "actual" arrow length since it doesn't measure from the nock grove out to the end of the arrow point.

ATA "Actual Arrow Length" is made for determining the "front of center" balance calculations, not for spine calculations or arrow length for clickers. With wood arrows with glue on points and non-wood arrows with outsert nocks, the ATA Arrow length is BOP. Arrows with inserts are measured from the nock groove to the end of the shaft (back of the insert shoulder). Neither points nor broadheads are measured for ATA Actual Arrow Length. I don't know how ATA Actual Arrow Length deals with the very long shank glue in points made for skinny shafts. :dontknow:


----------



## limbwalker

I meant to write "tip" of point, and folks, if the length of the point is of concern, then the suggestions above are not nearly specific enough. 

BTW, it takes a lot more than the length of a point to make an arrow untunable.


----------



## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> I meant to write "tip" of point, and folks, if the length of the point is of concern, then the suggestions above are not nearly specific enough.
> 
> BTW, it takes a lot more than the length of a point to make an arrow untunable.


So your suggestions are nock groove to _tip_ of the point (nock groove to the end of everything)? And not nock groove to _back_ of point?

(Potential confusion/ambiguity is something I think is good to rule out when we can. )


----------



## limbwalker

Warbow said:


> So your suggestions are nock groove to _tip_ of the point (nock groove to the end of everything)? And not nock groove to _back_ of point?
> 
> (Potential confusion/ambiguity is something I think is good to rule out when we can. )


I'm pretty sure I JUST said that for the purpose of these guidelines, it really doesn't matter.

You still have to shoot the arrow to know, and until then, you cannot know. And even then, that's assuming the bow is set up properly and the archer has decent enough form to tell.


----------



## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> I'm pretty sure I JUST said that for the purpose of these guidelines, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> You still have to shoot the arrow to know, and until then, you cannot know. And even then, that's assuming the bow is set up properly and the archer has decent enough form to tell.


Yes, you *did* say it doesn't really matter, but I asked for clarification anyway because I value clarity whenever possible. Even for ballpark estimates it's nice to know what basis you are using, what the approximate center is, even if it is fuzzy.

I think that just as we have to specify "AMO Drawlength" in the forum so everyone is on the same page, it probably makes sense to explicitly state in forum discussions whether you are talking BOP arrow length or nock group to tip of point measurement given that both are legitimate measures of arrow length and it is easy to assume you and someone else are talking about the same thing when, in fact, you are not.


----------



## dchan

limbwalker said:


> I meant to write "tip" of point, and folks, if the length of the point is of concern, then the suggestions above are not nearly specific enough.
> 
> BTW, it takes a lot more than the length of a point to make an arrow untunable.


Thanks for your clarification and agreed. Not enough to make a difference, especially for an intermediate shooter. Certainly not for a first set of arrows. Get in the ball park and go shoot!


----------



## Osmanthus

I am confused about the arrow length...

For example:


> 2500 spine (1214 Jazz) work from bows that are about 22# @ 22"


My bow is 22 lbs but On The Finger it is probably 19 lbs for me. My draw length is 25". So it seems that I would need to use 1214 Jazz arrows, but what does the 22" mean?

I shoot barebow recurve, but I am also want to at least know a little bit about Oly recurve.

Thank you.


----------



## Ms. X Hunter

I'm nearly positive that it means you are pulling 22# OTF @ a 22" DL. One of the veterans could clarify this. 

And the 1214 Tributes that you are using are the exact same arrows as 1214 Jazzes, just with a different paint job.


----------



## Osmanthus

Ms. X Hunter said:


> I'm nearly positive that it means you are pulling 22# OTF @ a 22" DL. One of the veterans could clarify this.
> 
> And the 1214 Tributes that you are using are the exact same arrows as 1214 Jazzes, just with a different paint job.


Then what is the significance of the measurement (the 22" DL)? If someone doesn't have that DL, but still pulling close to 22# OTF that person still can use the arrow mentioned as long as they watch that the length is long enough, correct? 

Yes, Tributes and Jazzes are equivalent, only different in the shaft color.


----------



## dchan

Normally 22# @ 22" means up to 22 lbs OTF and a 22" arrow. 

I'm sure this was an experience thing.. John and several of the other coaches here work with lots of kids so we do often see the real small kids with short DL's. I'm pretty sure John has set up this combo which is why he uses it as an example.

John will need to clarify or confirm this however because a lot of the kids bows (smaller) do have ratings on the bows for --xx# @ 24"-- or --xx# @ 22"-- ratings. meaning they can have 22lbs OTF @ 22" DL

That being said, Pretty much anything less than 20lbs OTF and cut shorter than 25" will require the 1214's in order to get close. 

If you are pulling 22lbs OTF and shooting 26" arrows, for safety reasons you do need to go up in spine. the 1214's are too weak to shoot safely for many people in the longer configuration.


----------



## limbwalker

Yes. That's correct.

So think of those numbers as the "middle of the range" so to speak. 

I agree that anything under 20# and 25" will probably want a 1214.


----------



## Osmanthus

dchan said:


> Normally 22# @ 22" means up to 22 lbs OTF and a 22" arrow.
> 
> I'm sure this was an experience thing.. John and several of the other coaches here work with lots of kids so we do often see the real small kids with short DL's. I'm pretty sure John has set up this combo which is why he uses it as an example.
> 
> John will need to clarify or confirm this however because a lot of the kids bows (smaller) do have ratings on the bows for --xx# @ 24"-- or --xx# @ 22"-- ratings. meaning they can have 22lbs OTF @ 22" DL
> 
> That being said, Pretty much anything less than 20lbs OTF and cut shorter than 25" will require the 1214's in order to get close.
> 
> If you are pulling 22lbs OTF and shooting 26" arrows, for safety reasons you do need to go up in spine. the 1214's are too weak to shoot safely for many people in the longer configuration.


Thank you for your reply. I think I am pulling about 19# at my 25" DL. My arrows are full length (27" or 27.5"?).


----------



## Osmanthus

limbwalker said:


> Yes. That's correct.
> 
> So think of those numbers as the "middle of the range" so to speak.
> 
> I agree that anything under 20# and 25" will probably want a 1214.


Thank you for the clarification John. OK, so my 1214 is still good then. My DL is 25" and OTF I am probably pulling 19 lbs. The arrows are full length (I shoot barebow, so no clicker).


----------



## williamskg6

limbwalker said:


> First of all, I am not sure I'd recommend an archer pay for V1 VAP's unless they were shooting 300+ at 70 meters. My wife's arrows are V6's (.006 straightness) and our preliminary 30M bare shaft tests proved to me they are more than good enough for her at this time.


As always, John is on the money here. This straightness discussion has been had before on AT, and with respect to carbon arrows and straightness, the straightness tolerance isn't as important as people think. Consistent spine from arrow to arrow is much more important. Here's the link to an article by Rick McKinney discussing just that: http://www.carbontecharrows.com/main/arrow-spine-weight-and-straightness/

As for the list, thank you John! Very useful information!

Since the Carbon Impact 5/15 is 1500 spine and 10/20 is 1200 spine, do the lines that have the 5/15 in the 1200 spine and 10/20 in the 1000 spine need any modification? For example, the 5/15 SC would be moved up with the 1500 spine Medallion XRs and the 10/20 would be moved up with the 1200 spine Ultra Fast. The numbers I got from Carbon Impact for the Super Clubs are as follows:

Super Club 5/15 is 1500 length is 27 3/4
Super Club 10/20 is 1200 length is 28 3/4
Super Club 15/25 is 950 length is 30 1/4
Super Club 20/30 is 820 length is 30 3/4
Super Club 30/40 is 620 length is 31 3/4
Super Club 40/50 is 500 length is 32 3/4

That would seem to indicate that the 15/25 (950 spine) is weaker than the 800 spine arrows it's grouped with in the list. Does this need to be moved too? Sorry to pester - just trying to keep it clear on my end.


-Kent W.


----------



## limbwalker

Kent, my mistake. Go with the spine value, not necessarily the arrow label. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## fwt1712

Thanks John,

I am currently at 41.5# and 31" should I choose 600 or go to 550. My 500 Carbon ones with 120 gn points land 4" left at 15m so stiff and never really look settled in their flight, and typically give wider groups with little elevation variation. I am happy to experiment with 1/4 doz of either 550 or 600 c1s but would prefer to get myself in the closest ball park to start with if possible.

kind regards,
Nigel.


----------



## dchan

15M is too close to really settle in their flight so I would ignore that part.

4" at 15M figure about 8-12" at 30m if not more.. depending on a lot of other factors you don't give, ie what size groups you shoot at a longer distance, the rest of your rig setup, stabilizer, Plunger, tab/glove, and just about every other thing you can think of including quality of setup, center shot, etc.. are those poundages and DL's measured, or calculated? what method did you use? are they AMO, OTF. is that 31" a DL or arrow length.

Depending on many of these factors you may already be "in the ball park" 

Probably best for you to start your own thread.

DC


----------



## Jim C

its a good starting point. I find some of those are a bit light (weak) based on MY experience. a 30 inch 1000 spine arrow with 30 pounds at the fingers is going to have the bare shaft (out of a RH archer) go right of the group. I have several women shooting 1000 spine 26" arrows pulling about 30 pounds and the tune is pretty good


----------



## limbwalker

> a 30 inch 1000 spine arrow with 30 pounds at the fingers is going to have the bare shaft (out of a RH archer) go right of the group.


Someday I'll learn why my archers all tune weaker arrows than everyone else in the world.


----------



## grantmac

LAS is now selling the Fivics mach 3 arrows up to 1800 spine and I believe they are also the lightest shafts I've seen at the lighter spines. Really exciting time for archers shooting less weight.

As for me I can't tune lighter than 800 with 30# and a 28" arrow, but that is barebow.

Grant


----------



## mrcina

Grant,
What are your point weight, vanes type and tiller? How much weight do you use on the riser?


----------



## SAVILO

TTT

Just bringing this thread back to life as there is lots of useful information in it.


----------



## bobbinbette

BUMP as this thread is amazing. Also, I had a question that I don't think warranted its own thread.

How much does point weight affect the effective spine of the arrow? Here's my scenario.

Current: 28" length, 800 spine VAP v6, 100 grain points, and 35# OTF
The above configuration seems to work well with me (even though I have to soften my plunger quite a bit for bare shafts to group)

I'm thinking of moving up to 37# OTF. 

Can I achieve a stiff enough arrow if I reduce the point weight from 100grains to 90 grains?
Would an 800 spine arrow at 28" still be safe to shoot at 37#?


----------



## arrowchucker222

I'm with John, Carbon ones are the crookest arrows I have I have wood shafts with better tolerances


----------



## Stash

I miss the good old days, when if you were short you shot 1914, average was 2014 and tall was 2114. And for women the choices were 1614, 1714 or 1814.


----------



## limbwalker

I don't think I could have ever shot a 2114. LOL


----------



## dchan

First off.. 



bobbinbette said:


> even though I have to soften my plunger quite a bit for bare shafts to group


Softening your plunger is NOT changing the dynamic spine. That's not generally the way we recommend you get a bareshaft to join the group (change DW Weight)



bobbinbette said:


> Can I achieve a stiff enough arrow if I reduce the point weight from 100grains to 90 grains?


If you are using break off points (inside the shaft) most of us have found that breaking off the point changes how much of the point insert is in the shaft, and the weight change seems to be close to an offset. IE: you have a lower FOC,and the dynamic spine stays the same. (lower point weight means stiffer dynamic spine, but less support from the insert means "longer" bending part of the shaft and thus weakens the dynamic spine) Change in dynamic spine almost zero.


----------



## bobbinbette

@dchan

Your information on the breakoff points not affecting dynamic spine makes sense. I never considered the increase in effective flexing length of the shaft when I reduce the point weight. 

Slightly off topic of the original point of the thread: How do you know when to increase/decrease draw weight vs stiffen/soften the plunger?


----------



## dchan

bobbinbette said:


> Slightly off topic of the original point of the thread: How do you know when to increase/decrease draw weight vs stiffen/soften the plunger?


Since this is about "rules of thumb"

The General rule in tuning. Increase/decrease DW to move a bareshaft into a group (usually with a rigid plunger)
Plunger pressure is used to fine tune where a whole group lands, not move a bareshaft in relation to the fletch group.


----------



## erose

bobbinbette said:


> BUMP as this thread is amazing. Also, I had a question that I don't think warranted its own thread.
> 
> How much does point weight affect the effective spine of the arrow? Here's my scenario.
> 
> Current: 28" length, 800 spine VAP v6, 100 grain points, and 35# OTF
> The above configuration seems to work well with me (even though I have to soften my plunger quite a bit for bare shafts to group)
> 
> I'm thinking of moving up to 37# OTF.
> 
> Can I achieve a stiff enough arrow if I reduce the point weight from 100grains to 90 grains?
> Would an 800 spine arrow at 28" still be safe to shoot at 37#?


Playing around the day before yesterday checking what spine arrow to use with my new riser. I had 500 spine with 140gr tips and 600s with 110gr both bare shafts. At 20m they both shot slightly weak out of my rig, with the 500s hitting a few inches lower. I'm pulling about 40 to 42lbs at 29". I put 110gr points in the 500s and they started shooting slightly stiff.

Hopefully that gives you an idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AllenPriest

I am a 52 year old male who is learning olympic style recurve shooting. I'm shooting a 68" SF Premium+ bow with a draw weight of 32#. Apparently, though, I have short arms and my draw length is about 24". I want to start learning to use a clicker but I have measured and it looks like I would need to cut my arrows down to 25.5". An alternative would be to keep my arrows at 27.25" and use an extended clicker mounted to the sight bar. I would prefer to use the clicker mounted to the riser but is there an advantage to using the longer arrows and the extended clicker? Is 25.5" too short for an arrow length or does it even matter?

Would appreciate some advice.

Thanks,
Allen


----------



## dchan

You might want to read the sticky thread (in my signature and at the top of this sub-forum)

There's not enough information in your post to give reasonable suggestions. Arrow type, spine, etc. Rest of your configuration, etc.. Everything matters depending on how accurate you want us to guess. 

You may also wish to start your own thread for more specific help and information.


----------



## AllenPriest

Sorry, you are right, more information needed.

I'm shooting carbon arrows - Easton Inspire for now. I'm currently shooting 750 spines but if I shorten the arrows, Easton recommends 900-1000 spine. I use a finger tab for release. My grouping at 20 yards is not bad - getting better but at longer distances, the side to side grouping is good but up-down is all over the target (but not missing the target). My arrows have 50 grain points in them and are fletched with Xs wings. I shoot almost entirely outdoors.

I think that covers the relevant info. This seemed like a good thread, since it's about arrow selection.

Thanks


----------



## dchan

AllenPriest said:


> This seemed like a good thread, since it's about arrow selection.
> 
> Thanks


This thread was about how to "generally" select spines to "get in the ball park" if you want more specifics as in how much to cut, etc you should start your own thread.

But since it's posted, You didn't tell us what the weight off the fingers is (if you know). But if we extract from what limited info you gave here's what we can ASSUME.
1. You did not use AMO to measure your DL,(how did you measure?) so if you have a 25.75" DL. Which is 2.25" shorter than the rated 28" Using that a 32lb lb as what's on the limbs and assuming somewhere mid poundage on limb bolts, we subtract 4.5lb and come up with 27.5lbs on the fingers.
2. We don't know if you have any thing attached to your bow (sight, stabilizer, etc) (will change dynamic spine)
3. We don't know what size target you are shooting at for 20 Yds/18M.
4. We don't know what kind of string.
5. We don't know if any kind of tuning has been done.

With this limited and possibly flawed information, I can only surmise that you are WAY over spined.

If we use John/limbwalkers chart (also in my sticky thread) which seems to be one of the better for carbon parallel shafts, (easton chart will be stiff) using a 27" arrow, you should be shooting closer to 1000 spine arrows. (27ish lbs and 27ish arrows)
If you cut them to 25.5" you are going to need to be in a 1300-1500 spine.


----------



## AllenPriest

Well, I learned a lot today about dchan and archerytalk, but really did not learn anything about my question.

I'm sorry for stepping into your pond.
Goodbye.


----------



## limbwalker

AllenPriest said:


> Well, I learned a lot today about dchan and archerytalk, but really did not learn anything about my question.
> 
> I'm sorry for stepping into your pond.
> Goodbye.


Wow.


----------



## dchan

AllenPriest said:


> Well, I learned a lot today about dchan and archerytalk, but really did not learn anything about my question.
> 
> I'm sorry for stepping into your pond.
> Goodbye.





limbwalker said:


> Wow.


Right?  I tried to help, tried to get allenpriest to get us more info so we could give him some relevant advice. Oh well. 

To answer his specific question of "Is 25.5" too short for an arrow length or does it even matter?" The only real answer I could have given was "It depends" and I'm sure that would have been met with even more confusion.


----------



## AllenPriest

Look, I'm sorry that I got angry, but here's how I see what happened.
I went to a thread entitled "arrow selection Rules of thumb for olympic recurves" and asked if there is an advantage to using an extended clicker to have a longer arrow rather than a shorter one. That's all I wanted to ask.

What I got was:
"Start your own thread."
"You don't know how to measure draw length."
"You don't know how to measure draw weight."
"Easton doesn't know how to select an arrow spine for their own arrows."

If you had responded with "it depends" and told me what it depended on, then I would probably have had additional information to consider. What you told me was not at all helpful since I did not ask you to diagnose the spine of my arrows but just to tell me if there is an advantage to using an extended clicker for someone with short arms.

Again I'm sorry that I got angry but I read this thread before I posted and I did not see you treat other people with simple questions the way you treated me.

Once more, please accept my apology for getting angry and my apology for wasting your time. I really did think I was asking a simple question.


----------



## ryan b.

You're lucky anyone is even giving you the time of day with that passive aggressive crap. There's plenty of knowledge and FREE help from very experienced folk ( a couple of them already gave you great answers in spite of how you're going about it) No one owes you anything. If you want help then try 180degree change in your attitude and how you display yourself to the community. You're not being sorry. You're saying sorry and then qualifying it and negating it with a bunch of "buts". 

So, once more, "what's your correctly measured draw length?"


----------



## AllenPriest

ryan b

I put an arrow on the string and pulled back to my anchor point. I had another person mark with a pencil at the point where the arrow crosses the center of the plunger. I repeated this 10 times and averaged the position that was marked. I then measure from the center of the plunger out to the farthest reach my clicker blade and clicker extension reaches. This gives me a measurement from the nock to the top of point of 25.5". I have repeated this measurement with other techniques and they pretty consistently say that I need an arrow length of 25.5".

When I bought my arrows, they measured my draw length using an Easton draw length indicator, commented on my short draw length, and then cut my arrows to 27" because, at the time, I was not talking about using a clicker. Now, with a clicker, these arrows extend 1.5" farther than my clicker blade can reach. I am looking to purchase new arrows, but I need to know how long to get them before I can decide on spine, etc... That's why I wanted to know if it is advisable to use an extended clicker in order to lengthen the arrows.

On another note... I sent 2 PMs to dchan apologizing for this thread. I can't tell that either of them went through. (Perhaps I don't have privileges to send a PM.) I am sorry that I messed up this thread with my question and angry responses. It was not my intention. I do know that there are some very knowledgeable people on here who are giving very kindly of their time to help beginners like me. I really did think I was asking a simple question about using an extended clicker. That's all I wanted to know.


----------



## AllenPriest

Oh, I forgot... my anchor point is hand under jaw bone, string touching the tip of my nose.


----------



## Seattlepop

If you have a choice, I've read that longer arrows are more stable than shorter ones. Possibly one reason being that longer arrows, everything else being equal, will give you more FOC. Outdoors, FOC can be important. In that regard, 50gr pts are far below what the average Oly bow uses outdoors. The wrong arrow choice far outweighs having a shorter-than-average DL which is probably why you got the kind of responses you found objectionable.


----------



## AllenPriest

Thanks Seattlepop. Your FOC suggestion was helpful. I did more research on that and it lead me to some very useful info. I also found a different thread on ArcheryTalk specifically talking about extended clickers. I don't know why I didn't find that one before.

Easton only recommends 50gr points for the arrows I've been using which, as I know too well, are cheap arrows. I know I should use better ones but, given the choice of my son's tuition or my hobby, I'll have to go with tuition. 

Thanks, again.


----------



## dchan

Thank you for the info regarding how you measured. That clears up a lot. With that info we can make a good educated guess on your AMO DL. Usually riser mounted clickers will reach about 1/2" past the edge of a arrow plus point reaching about there and an inspire with chisel points (those 50gn points) probably means your shaft length is around 25.25" if you gave us your actual draw length (measured the way you did to the plunger) we can calculate your DW better.

However knowing your arrows are already spined way to stiff, you would be much better served by leaving your arrows long. The fact that you only have 50gn points, even more so.

Experience tells us 25" is sort of the limit on the short end for "best" flight but there are always exceptions to if someone can get them to fly well.


----------



## AllenPriest

dchan,
Thank you very much for this advice. I will definitely look at getting higher spined arrows and I'll probably try the extended clicker and see how that goes. I would love to start shooting better arrows but I feel like I could improve a lot before I start risking expensive arrows getting lost or broken.

You help is appreciated.

Allen


----------



## dchan

Knowing what size target or the size of your groups at 20 yds would give many an idea if arrow quality or tune is holding you back. Or if even a clicker makes sense.


----------



## keno190a

Woot! This information has been really helpful. Time to look at new arrows to accompany new limbs!


----------



## fingolete

Hi... quick question! 

I'm shooting 34# at 30" (32# at 28" Ragim X100 Limbs) and by Easton chart recomendation just bought a dozen of aluminium 1916. Will it be posible to tune the bow with them? i also bought RPS inserts, 70 and 80 gr points. I will fletch them with 3" feathers.

Some advice? It´s my first time fletching.

Thank you in advance


----------



## pipcount

Say, I would appreciate commentary on another idea related to "getting correct spine". Going to speak about "if you change arrow length, how much should you change static spine?" I referenced "Applications of Physics to Archery, by H. O. Meyer, Physics Department, Indiana University" published in 2015. Shows static spine ~ length cubed of an arrow. (or, for that matter, any cylindrical 

I found that the change in spine between various lengths, trying to keep similar "dynamic spine" roughly constant, varies from 15% for REALLY short kids arrows to about 10% for really long adult arrows. And in the most common lengths for adults change is ~12%. But, 12% or 15% is hard to remember.

Thus, an easy "rule of thumb" for changing spine or length might be: If you have an arrow and static spine that ALMOST works for you, going up or down 1" is going to change your dynamic spine about 10%. Interestingly enough, this matches prior thumb rule: About a spine rating an inch... which is easier, and if you simply look at most charts for arrows, you will find same.

Or, for example, if you have a 350 spine 29" arrow that needs to be stiffer, if you cut an inch you get to something that behaves more like a 315 (90%*350) would at 29". 

I am setting up a bunch of arrows for my wife and daughter... and would like to keep all tips as light as possible, keep arrow speed up on short draw length, low draw weight bows used at 10-20 yards. Planning to start with super light arrows, really weak spine (2000) for my daughter with arrows simply too long with light tips, and shorten until I get arrows that work. She is currently on a 54" bow, 16#/28", drawing 20" for ~10# at her fingers. So we are in a real odd regime here. I am going to try to step her up a set of limbs to 20# this week or next, let her shoot that for a while to stabilize, then introduce new arrows next month or so. She had an antibiotic resistant infection for last few years that we only knocked out recently, already getting stronger again, interested in arrows that don't "droop at the nose"  . I suspect when she shoots the 20# limbs she will be excited! Then step her up to "real arrows" that are lighter and shorter will add to enthusiasm... I hope to have an archer.

Going from short to an inch longer arrow acts like an arrow with the original length but a spine about (x%) higher spine rating/weaker arrow. (for carbon arrows). Conversely- if you start with an arrow that is too weak and too long, each inch you take off gives you a stiffer arrow by about the amount below in spine...
20	to	21 15.76%	
21	to	22 14.98%	
22	to	23 14.27%	
23	to	24 13.62%	
24	to	25 13.03%	
25	to	26 12.49%	
26	to	27 11.99%	
27	to	28 11.53%	
28	to	29 11.10%	
29	to	30 10.71%	
30	to	31 10.34%	
31	to	32 9.99% 

Don't use above to go up or down more than an inch... the relationship is NOT LINEAR... so the above is only valid for SMALL changes of length. 

I am trying to figure out a simple way to do the same for tip weight effect on dynamic spine.... if anyone has ideas love to hear them. Math looks far more complex. Seems like if we had a table built out as guide would be useful....


----------



## Viper1

Pip - 

10# of draw weight = 0.1" deflection = 2" of length = 100 grains of head weight or -50 grains of tail weight. 
Any closer requires experimentation. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## pipcount

Thanks Viper... above certainly true in center of arrow selection charts. Gives me a great start on the tip weight question. I have captured this in my thumb rules / notes.

Seems like there is non-linearity near ultra low draw weight/short arrows in the chart I am trying to model and extend, this rule might "bend" near that odd regime. Experimentation time- 

so many variables, so little time


----------



## Gregjlongbow

limbwalker said:


> Someday I'll learn why my archers all tune weaker arrows than everyone else in the world.


Yeah that’s what I was going to ask. I hadn’t seen this thread until it got revived. .500 for 45# and 31”??? I’m shooting 42# at 30” with my 500 spine X10 120 steel with the long insert trying to stiffen them a bit and I’m still a touch weak. I can still get good groups out of them at 44# but my bareshaft is way weak. Like right side black and white ring at 70m weak. Maybe my release is garbage? Centershot is dynamically correct with walk back. 

I’ve been thinking about how to get better sight markings. I don’t mind shooting sub 45#, but I am training enough to consider cranking it up to 45# and handle it. I just don’t know if going up to a 450 or 410 is going to give me any better sight markings with the increased arrow weight. I could drop down to the 100grn points but I really like the way the 120s shoot and group in the wind. I’m shooting at the 120 sight mark on the Axcel Achieve on the MK X10 riser. I’d like to be back up around the 110 hash mark. 

Maybe I’ll just switch back to ACEs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NOVABB

I shoot both oly recurve and barebow (Stringwalking) my oly arrow are CX Nono SST 550 120 grain points 29.5 inches and my barebow are 400 gold tip traidional xl with 135 grain points full lenght (32") . 29 " draw length 42# on the fingers for both bows. I suspect that this is because of all of the stabilization on the oly recurve allows for a weaker spined arrow.


----------



## pipcount

Novabb- you might find a little difference in how close you are to center shot in two setups as well. It appears that relatively modest changes to your degree of center matter a ton- so comparisons between rigs is really hard. So a minor difference there would put you "in the ballpark" of the thumbrules I think. Could be other things as well coming into play.

What I was trying for above, are "on same rig if you only change one item at a time" type of rules. Swapping rigs changes too many variables at once- likely riser center cut, plunger, limbs, riser length, etc. 

I learned value of thumbrules in Navy- simple, basic, "change one thing" ideas easy to remember.... but only for one thing at a time.


----------



## jvtrain

Awesome information for a dad navigating archery for the first time.


----------



## Scott_cr

Does adding a front stabilizer 28-30in to an olympic recurve stiffen or weaken the dynamic spine of the arrow in use, and why?


----------



## limbwalker

It makes the arrow behave stiffer, meaning you can generally use a slightly (maybe 1/2 size?) weaker spined arrow with an Olympic rig than with a barebow rig. Some say that it's just a function of the weight of the riser, but in my experience its a function of the length of the stabilizer. 

Just taking a guess - the added MOI of the long rod slows down the rotation of the bow and the arrow does not deflect as much on release. But that's just a guess. I could have that completely wrong so don't quote me. LOL

Just like understanding the complexities of arrow drift, I don't feel it's necessary to understand exactly why it happens so long as I know it happens and how to compensate for it.


----------



## Gregjlongbow

limbwalker said:


> It makes the arrow behave stiffer, meaning you can generally use a slightly (maybe 1/2 size?) weaker spined arrow with an Olympic rig than with a barebow rig. Some say that it's just a function of the weight of the riser, but in my experience its a function of the length of the stabilizer.
> 
> Just taking a guess - the added MOI of the long rod slows down the rotation of the bow and the arrow does not deflect as much on release. But that's just a guess. I could have that completely wrong so don't quote me. LOL


I’ve played with this a bit, and it is both. So I think both the length and the weight increase the MOI and cause the arrow to behave stiffer. Basically I just put my normal setup together, and added weight on all of the rods, plus weight on the riser mounted dampeners until my weak arrows (weak by about 1.5 feet at 70) came into the group. Didn’t change anything else. Now, I wasn’t able to shoot that setup because the balance of the mass weight to the draw weight was way off. I just did it after I read that weight stiffens the arrow which as counter intuitive to what I would have expected, but it totally does. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Scott_cr

Thank you for both answers and explanations! 

I was hoping it was the other way around... 

If my arrows are on the stiff side, bare shafts hitting level, but to the right ~16" @ 20yds (shooting left handed) In theory, does reducing the button pressure help much? I've been playing with it, but don't see any major gains... but that might just be my form


----------



## limbwalker

Not enough to move the arrow 16” but if you can add 40+ grains to the point you might have a chance


----------



## Scott_cr

Thanks Limbwalker!

I was experimenting a little more today and by softening the plunger quite a bit I got the bare shafts hitting about 11-12in to the right. I'm using Easton Inspire 750 shafts, 28.5in nock groove to back of point and 110gr points. I'm currently only pulling 26lbs on my fingers at 29in AMO draw (thus the cheap shafts as I hope to continue to increase draw weight). I will order a dozen 900 shafts to test since the 1000 spines come max 27.5in from the factory. I could leave the 900s at full factory length of 28.5in (1/2 in more than I'm currently using) and move my clicker out.

Note: the bare shafts I'm using are bare. I read somewhere that maybe I should put masking tape with an equivalent weight of the 3 fletches on the nock end? would this make much difference? I understand that adding weight to the nock end stiffens the arrow, so I'm guessing it will exaggerate my spine error.


----------



## limbwalker

You’re not at the “ adding tape “ stage yet.


----------



## dchan

limbwalker said:


> You’re not at the “ adding tape “ stage yet.


^^^^This.. I was thinking the same.


----------



## tassie_devil

Scott, look at Avalon classic carbon shafts from Alternativess. Cheap and IMHO a step up from the inspires which are super heavy.


----------



## Scott_cr

limbwalker said:


> You’re not at the “ adding tape “ stage yet.


That is exactly why I asked  Thanks again for your advice!!!


----------



## Scott_cr

tassie_devil said:


> Scott, look at Avalon classic carbon shafts from Alternativess. Cheap and IMHO a step up from the inspires which are super heavy.


Thanks Tassie_Devil! I believe there is another thread on this (sort of) but saw some newbie getting flamed for how he posed his questions... I'll ask differently since I have seen archers at our club with the Avalon shafts and always thought they came "pre-built". Do you know if the components are interchangeable? the Inspires are .166 ID. I switched to recurve from compound where I have a collection of stiffer CarbonOne shafts and have been using the stainless C1 points in the Inspires (110gr) as well as std G nocks. I currently live in CostaRica so I have to plan my experiments a little bit around logistics and ridiculously high import duties... The more I can re-use or cross over the better, but have no issues with trying new stuff especially at the entry level price/performance range.


----------



## tassie_devil

You can by the Avalon classic pre-built or shafts/components etc. I have a set of 900 spine uncut I'd sell at cost, but the way Australia post work you would be better going straight to alternativess I think. They Classics are .166 ID and I sued G nocks in mine. I would expect the C1 points to fit (but am not 100% sure). If it helps, I am using my Avalon classic points in Victory VAPs (also 0.166 ID) and they are fine. I tried it initially as I wasn't sure what point weight to get, but saw no sense in changing (Avalon points are 8 euro/dozen).

The 100gr Avalon points for the Classic 800-900 size shafts fit my 700 spine VAPs pretty well. For reference, VAP 700 supposedly have the same outside diameter as C1 730.

James


----------



## Scott_cr

tassie_devil said:


> You can by the Avalon classic pre-built or shafts/components etc. I have a set of 900 spine uncut I'd sell at cost, but the way Australia post work you would be better going straight to alternativess I think. They Classics are .166 ID and I sued G nocks in mine. I would expect the C1 points to fit (but am not 100% sure). If it helps, I am using my Avalon classic points in Victory VAPs (also 0.166 ID) and they are fine. I tried it initially as I wasn't sure what point weight to get, but saw no sense in changing (Avalon points are 8 euro/dozen).
> 
> The 100gr Avalon points for the Classic 800-900 size shafts fit my 700 spine VAPs pretty well. For reference, VAP 700 supposedly have the same outside diameter as C1 730.
> 
> James


James, I went looking in Alternativeness for the Avalon Classics and they have replaced them with what looks like their own house brand "Skylon" http://www.skylonarchery.com. The say they are the same shafts? perhaps this Chinese factory makes all these shafts for everybody? The points look great and great price as well. Also looks like the shafts come factory length of 32 inches. Do you or does anyone know if these are the same as the Avalon shafts? I've also read great reviews for the VAPs and they are similarly priced as the C1s... I never tried them for fear that I might like them and have to rebuild my stock of components. This is very helpful. thanks again!


----------



## tassie_devil

Yep. Avalon got rebranded to Skylon. The Avalon’s were super cheap when they had them. So same deal, I think Skylon have increments of 50 in spine instead of the 100 of the Avalon’s


----------



## Timevoid

Scott_cr said:


> James, I went looking in Alternativeness for the Avalon Classics and they have replaced them with what looks like their own house brand "Skylon" http://www.skylonarchery.com. The say they are the same shafts? perhaps this Chinese factory makes all these shafts for everybody? The points look great and great price as well. Also looks like the shafts come factory length of 32 inches. Do you or does anyone know if these are the same as the Avalon shafts? I've also read great reviews for the VAPs and they are similarly priced as the C1s... I never tried them for fear that I might like them and have to rebuild my stock of components. This is very helpful. thanks again!


I got 3 dozen of Skylon radius and Brixxon. They are just as good as Easton Apollo and Carbon1. Skylon have same GPI weight as C1. And as a casual archer i cant make a diffrence of the shafts. If tuned correct they will land where you aim.


----------



## fwt1712

My 12yo son has outgrown his uncut 1516 tributes (28" nock to back of point) and he is currently pulling 25# otf. At the rate he is growing I am thinking 29.5" and 26# (as he is going to 25" riser from 23" there will be some reduction in draw weight to offset his increasing draw). Is 1000, 1100 or 1200 an appropriate spine? Thanks Nigel.


----------

