# Eye dominance and instinctive shooting.



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bacause a sight picture is used in most forms of aiming....eye dominance can definitely play a roll in an Instinctive archer's progress as an archer.

Shooting with your dominant eye can make the aiming process easier rather than trying to compensate for the different sight picture that is created while trying to shoot with the less dominant eye...but than you have the other issue with learning to shoot with your cross-dominant hand.

Just as with any aiming technique the mind and body is an amazing thing. They can adapt to just about any situation and you can learn to be very accurate being cross-eyed dominant. It just may be harder to master your aiming technique.

I would suggest you shoot a NFAA 300 round if you want to compare your ability with other archers. Based on the pics of your groups...if those are your average group size...I would say you are shooting around a score of <200 on the NFAA 300 round, which is fair, IMO.

Ray :shade:


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks, Wolf.  Does it make sense that my arrows would tend to group up on the right side if I'm shooting with both eyes open and am left eye dominant? I'd think they would end up on the left too... Maybe there's some kind of neurological weirdness there, flipping or mirroring. I don't know much about how vision works but I think there's something like mirroring going on with the retina, like how a camera works. Have to ask my optometrist. He's the one who first told me I was cross-dominant, though his exact words were "You ever play softball? Bet you were a good hitter." Which was true. I was a very good batter. Showed up to an intramural adult game last summer to fill in for a friend and the pitcher took one look at me and my pink tennies and then gestured all his fielders in, assuming I wouldn't hit it very far, if at all. I plowed that sucker up to the fence between left and center and laughed all the way to home base at their shocked faces. Never assume the 30something in glasses with goofy 80s cleats wasn't coincidentally also a semi-pro softball player when she was a kid, lol. 

Anyway. 

I hate to sound ignorant, but what's a NFAA 300? I googled it and found people talking about it, but nothing just saying what exactly it is.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

maidmarian said:


> Does it make sense that my arrows would tend to group up on the right side if I'm shooting with both eyes open and am left eye dominant?
> 
> I would say...yes...but that's somewhat based on a guess because I don't shoot cross eye dominant and have never tested it. Hopefully...someone with more experience with this exact situation when jump in and be of more help.
> 
> I hate to sound ignorant, but what's a NFAA 300?


It's a scoring system based on a specific target shot at 20yrds. The archer shots 12 rounds of 5 arrows scoring 5X,5,4,3,2,1,0.

Someone here knows the exact dimensions of the target, so hopefully you'll be able to make one...but if you're close to an archery range...you should be able to pick some of those targets up there.

Ray :shade:

PS....by the way...you don't sound ignorant at all for asking a question about something you are trying to learn about :wink:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

40 cm or almost 16"


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

maidmarian said:


> I hate to sound ignorant, but what's a NFAA 300? I googled it and found people talking about it, but nothing just saying what exactly it is.


Its a merciless critic that you will begin to love, then hate:shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BlackWolf, I'm gonna have to charge you for using "cross eyed dominant". I have a patent on it.:teeth:

maidmarian, Glad to see that you do shoot with both eyes open. Closing one could make you cross eyed dominant.:wink:
Anywho, it's possible that you may have more than one arrow with a mind of its own. Woodies can be tricky like that. I love em but they do require a little tweakin sometimes. Not always as straight as it should be. If you put a number on them with a marker then you can easily see who is always where you want it to be and who is not. That will help determine if it needs the tweakin.

But I would bet that the problem is one of inconsistent focus. Instinctive shooting is not for the lazy as it takes a lot of practice. Learning to focus is not as easy as people think. You MUST be focused on the small spot where you want the arrow to hit at the time of release. If not,the arrow will most likely hit where your eyes were focused at the release. Pay attention to what is happening with your eyes while at full draw. Are they really staying focused on the spot or drifting around some???? I call it shifty eyes. Not something to get too involved in,just be aware of.
Don't worry about being cross eyed dominant. Lots of people are,myself included. Looks as if you are well on your way.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

grantmac said:


> Its a merciless critic that you will begin to love, then hate:shade:


Ain't THAT the truth !!!:set1_rolf2:

MM - I second FGs arrow numbering system, which an older (than even ME) gentleman at my club had suggested to me a couple of months ago. 
My main "mind of its own" flyer arrow (#3) took off for parts unknown in the woods today, so don't have to worry about THAT number any more!

I'm also CED (right hand, left eye). I usually try to keep both open, but sometimes the left eye kicks in (helped #3 escape today, I suspect).
A pirate patch might be helpful if all else fails, and would be cool (also a bow tie and a fez, if you wish).


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi Arrowwood - is that a FITA target? I can't find any NFAA targets that are 40cm, but the FITA 18m shoot is 40cm. 

I found some NFAA pdf guides on target sizes and shoots but nothing about a 300 yet. Anyone have a link to the NFAA 300, set up and scoring?


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Also, can someone explain wth this means: " Ali's and 3 Under in Longbow which wasn't allowed, he made the changes to Split finger and woodie" -- found it in a discussion of NFAA 300. Discussions in which everyone seems to be speaking a foreign language, lol.


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## mncarphntr (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm left handed, right eye dominant. I shot left for 40 years, finally decided to give switching a serious try this spring. Didn't happen overnight, I'm still working on finding the right anchor and "feel". But its feeling comfortable shooting this way now. I don't conciously "gap" but always had double images in my peripheral vision that made me lose concentration when drawing. Using my dominant eye I see much less of this. Shooting cross-dominant certainly can be done as me and many others on here have proven, but its worth trying to switch and the sooner the better. Good luck!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

maidmarian said:


> Hi Arrowwood - is that a FITA target? I can't find any NFAA targets that are 40cm, but the FITA 18m shoot is 40cm.
> 
> I found some NFAA pdf guides on target sizes and shoots but nothing about a 300 yet. Anyone have a link to the NFAA 300, set up and scoring?


You can use the FITA multi-color at 18m but its a considerably harder target to shoot instinctively then the NFAA blueface. That big white centre on the NFAA target is much easier to focus on, just like your sticky note.

The 300 round is a long shoot, 60 arrows in 12 ends. Keeping focus is the toughest part. Its been recommended you shoot it at 10yds until you can shoot a 240 then move it back to 15, then 20.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Fred Asbell seems to think it matters - Jay Kidwell thinks it does not. Since shooting at a subconscious level (instinctive) is all about "feel" - I would shoot the way that feels best to you - your brain can compensate for pretty much anything. 

A 300 Round is 60 arrows shot in groups of five arrows at a time at the target posted above at 20 yards - scoring 5 for anything in the white - and then 4,3,2,1 for the other lines in the blue. The top "traditional" shooters are in the 270's and sometimes low 280's - but these are not longbow or even "traditional" recurve shooters - these are guys shooting really long olympic recurves with rests and plungers and using arrows that are full length and tuned and weighted down so that they are slow enough that they can use the tip of the arrow as a sight - they use these bows only for this sort of competition.

I went to the NFAA Indoor Nationals last year and myself and one other guy were the only ones shooting hunting weight bows off the shelf instinctively with hunting arrows - I shot a 259 the first day and I think a 264 the 2nd - about 10 points less than I shoot at home.


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

grantmac said:


> You can use the FITA multi-color at 18m but its a considerably harder target to shoot instinctively then the NFAA blueface. That big white centre on the NFAA target is much easier to focus on, just like your sticky note.
> 
> The 300 round is a long shoot, 60 arrows in 12 ends. Keeping focus is the toughest part. Its been recommended you shoot it at 10yds until you can shoot a 240 then move it back to 15, then 20.
> 
> -Grant


Is the FITA multi-color the same dimensions as the NFAA, then? I think that target I printed out is the same thing, cropped squareish on account of paper size. Have to go find that website again. 

Also, here's a big "Ruh-roh, Raggy" - found this in an NFAA rulebook: "The archer shall touch the arrow when nocked and drawing the arrow with the index finger against the nock. Finger position may not be changed during competition. In the case of physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers."

OK, does this mean I have to shoot one finger over the nock and one or two under the nock? Because sadly, nobody has ever mentioned this as a thing that most folk do, and I'm afraid I've gone and learned to shoot three fingers under the nock. I found that I kept knocking my arrow off the serving when I tried to shoot with one finger over the nock, which is how the guy who first showed me to shoot did it. He shrugged and said "Hey, whatever works. ;-)" Sooooo. Um?


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> BlackWolf, I'm gonna have to charge you for using "cross eyed dominant". I have a patent on it.:teeth:
> 
> maidmarian, Glad to see that you do shoot with both eyes open. Closing one could make you cross eyed dominant.:wink:
> Anywho, it's possible that you may have more than one arrow with a mind of its own. Woodies can be tricky like that. I love em but they do require a little tweakin sometimes. Not always as straight as it should be. If you put a number on them with a marker then you can easily see who is always where you want it to be and who is not. That will help determine if it needs the tweakin.


Between the "shifty eyes" and the cross-eyed dominant you made me laugh while I read this and smile and I had kind of a bad day, so making me grin was appreciated as much as the good advice!


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

In NFAA index finger must touch the arrow nock. Index finger can be either under the nock (3 under) OR over the nock (split finger AKA Mediteranean Release) IFAA on the on the other hand mandates split finger in particular. "Ali's" refers to aluminum arrows.
Here is the link to the NFAA website.
Try to hang out with other stickbow shooters and get to some shoots. You will pick up all the odd bits that so many take for granted in short order.


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Fred Asbell seems to think it matters - Jay Kidwell thinks it does not. Since shooting at a subconscious level (instinctive) is all about "feel" - I would shoot the way that feels best to you - your brain can compensate for pretty much anything.
> 
> A 300 Round is 60 arrows shot in groups of five arrows at a time at the target posted above at 20 yards - scoring 5 for anything in the white - and then 4,3,2,1 for the other lines in the blue. The top "traditional" shooters are in the 270's and sometimes low 280's - but these are not longbow or even "traditional" recurve shooters - these are guys shooting really long olympic recurves with rests and plungers and using arrows that are full length and tuned and weighted down so that they are slow enough that they can use the tip of the arrow as a sight - they use these bows only for this sort of competition.
> 
> I went to the NFAA Indoor Nationals last year and myself and one other guy were the only ones shooting hunting weight bows off the shelf instinctively with hunting arrows - I shot a 259 the first day and I think a 264 the 2nd - about 10 points less than I shoot at home.


Thanks for this - I do just feel more naturally grounded in my whole body shooting RH so I think I'll stick with that. It may take more time, but I've got time. AFAIK, nobody's gonna shoot me if I can't score a 250 next week, it could be next year.  Or after that. Who knows. 

I do love to hear about folks shooting trad bows instinctively and kicking butt. I have a weird dislike of those Buck Rogers bows with all the contraptions and doodads on them. The more complicated the bow looks, the more "I personally welcome our new robot overlords" it looks, the more "I got this bow from Galgorak, Alien Warlord of the Planet Klingon, the last time his spaceship docked at Deep Space Nine" it looks, the more I just dislike it. Like the bow itself, I dislike it like I dislike moldy Chinese takeout leftovers and spiders. Like they make me feel kind of "mrreeahhhhhhh" - and it's always been like that with me. Never seen one that I coveted or craved or wanted to shoot. 

Well, it's not really the bows that make me mad - it's that the shooter takes credit for making shots with it. "I got 68 bullseyes!" Makes me want to say "Person, your gabillionty dollar bow that balances itself on various wheels, gimcracks, heavy sticks, wheelie things, which sees through various lenses and sites and whatnot, and onto the string of which you have got yet another contraption onto which you very comfy-like got your hand wherein it will never get tired or pinched or etc., that damn bow got 68 bullseyes, you were just holding on to it at the time and maybe did some math in your head. GRATS."

I'm not bitter, I just think people should give credit where it's due. If the equipment is doing 90% of the work, be a little humble about whether that's all you or if it's mostly how much stuff you got.


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

After you learn to shoot, and you've been at it a while, and you meet other shooters and get to know them and what they do, you may get to understand that you are doing a real good job right now of demonstarting your ignorance.
Ever hear that it is best to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?
I have no love affair with compound bows, but at your current novice level to declare that the bow does 90% of the work and the shooter deserves little or no credit is....well....ludicrous.


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Bender said:


> In NFAA index finger must touch the arrow nock. Index finger can be either under the nock (3 under) OR over the nock (split finger AKA Mediteranean Release) IFAA on the on the other hand mandates split finger in particular. "Ali's" refers to aluminum arrows.
> Here is the link to the NFAA website.
> Try to hang out with other stickbow shooters and get to some shoots. You will pick up all the odd bits that so many take for granted in short order.


Thank heaven! I am so glad I can have all my fingers under the nock... Unless I want to shoot IFAA, that is. Thanks for the link! 

I wish there were more stickbow shooters near me. There aren't any clubs in an easy drive (and with gas being so expensive I don't see making lots of drives to practices - range is 10 min away by car). The friends who taught me live in another town about a two hour drive away, and they do medieval reenactment so I don't think they know about these other things. We never discussed them anyway. 

Today at the range I was on my own and another car pulled up. I figured it would be a compound shooter because that's all I've ever seen out there. It was a guy with a horsebow! I got all excited and walked over to say hi. Nice enough guy, pleasant chat about his real nice bow. But the next time I walked back over that way to get a knife out of my purse so I could dig out an arrow that I shot through the target frame (yikes) he started telling me about this religion that he has invented, and it involved dragons and getting to be a god and having a cosmos and stuff. It was complicated. I listened for awhile and then pointed out that his religion was basically Mormonism With Dragons (which is so totally metal, it's cool, whatever) and he was like "Huh." Anyway, I think he might be :banana: :banana: :banana: so when he said he'd sell me a longbow I was like "Hey, bring it out next time, we'll run into each other again" because my home number? Not so much giving it out in that situation. He also told me that he met Luna, the Moon Goddess. And stuff like that. There was a LOT. I didn't take notes. But it was a lot. 

So anyway, I was bummed, because it was like "Hey! It's another person who shoots tradi - OH NEVERMIND."


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Charon said:


> After you learn to shoot, and you've been at it a while, and you meet other shooters and get to know them and what they do, you may get to understand that you are doing a real good job right now of demonstarting your ignorance.
> Ever hear that it is best to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?
> I have no love affair with compound bows, but at your current novice level to declare that the bow does 90% of the work and the shooter deserves little or no credit is....well....ludicrous.


Well, I might be a fool, but I'll be damned if those bows aren't doing a heck of a lot of work. If 90% is high, what is it? 75%? 50%? Whatever it is, it must be a fair piece because there sure is a lot of stuff to buy, and a lot of stuff to put on the stuff using other stuff. Rolling around discussion boards what I see from the complicated bow shooters is about a kazillion discussions of tiny things that go on medium sized things that go on big things that make ALL THE DIFFERENCE. So yeah, it looks like it's mostly about the equipment. And hey... I'm gonna go ahead and say to you that I'm pretty sure that A) I'm not alone and B) This opinion I have isn't yours, but it doesn't make someone a fool. If you think everyone with an opinion you don't share is a fool, that makes you a megalomaniac. So I'm pretty content to be considered foolish by you, it's not that much of an insult once you consider the source. Thanks for sharing! (P.S., in case you aren't familiar with the term, "megalomaniac" is High Fancypants for "d-bag." Ta.

Oh, and C) I found this: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1483345&page=5 -- which has me pretty convinced you're a resident troll. Sorry, bud. Can't be bothered to get into some nonsense with you. :boink: someone else.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

maidmarian said:


> If 90% is high, what is it? 75%? 50%? Whatever it is, it must be a fair piece because there sure is a lot of stuff to buy, and a lot of stuff to put on the stuff using other stuff.


Marian,

Respectfully....have you shot one of those Olympic stye bows set up with all the accessories?

If not...I would suggest you do...because you can than experience first hand how much all that equipment aides the archer...and from personal experience and personal research...it's not no where near 90% equipment/10% archer. If anything it's the other way around.

One way to test it would be to compare your score while shooting your current trad bow and than shoot an Olympic bow all decked out and compare the scores. 

Another way would be to compare scores of the top trad barebow archers and compare them to the top Olympic style archers. The percentage of increase in scores comparitively is about an 8% increase.

Ray :shade:


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

That sounds like a good way to figure out the ratio - I think it would be real interesting to see how much of a change in score I'd have with an Olympic style bow (I still think it's weird that the Olympic style of the sport involves so much fancy equipment -I can't think of another sport in the Olympics that permits so much of that, I think most of them have pretty strict regs that keep the emphasis on the athlete instead of the equipment). I also think it would be real interesting to see one of those shooters shoot a trad barebow. 

Once when I was at an indoor range a guy who was tic-tac-toeing Xs into a five spot target with a supreme alien overlord compound bow came over and asked if he could shoot my recurve. Suddenly he couldn't hardly hit the side of a barn. Didn't get anywhere near the paper. That is not true all-around, lots of versatile and well-rounded archers out there that can shoot anything. I couldn't shoot a compound, I have no idea how all those doohickeys work. So if I'd tried his bow it would have been the same result as far as not hitting anything. I guess in my mind, if the reliance on the equipment is so great that you can't shoot a basic stickbow anymore, something has gone really wrong as far as who's really the shooter - the bow or the bowman. 

That said, today I was explaining to a friend all the major different kinds of bows - compounds, Olympic style aluminums, traditional recurves, longbows, and self-bows - and how the difficulty level (in my opinion, OK) as far as consistent high accuracy levels gets progressively harder as the bow gets simpler. In my mind, the most amazing shooters are the guys who can make a bow and some arrows out of a tree and make them shoot consistently enough to hunt with clean kills, or get target scores equal to those of folks shooting modern materials, laminates and the like. I find that super impressive. I don't find the compounds impressive so much. And my friend, he says "So what comes after the self bow in your mind? Is the most impressive person in the world some guy armed with a pointy stick and a big rock?" It did make me laugh. Maybe I just have an anachronistic turn of mind. 







BLACK WOLF said:


> Marian,
> 
> Respectfully....have you shot one of those Olympic stye bows set up with all the accessories?
> 
> ...


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Many of the early greats of our sport were cross-eye dominant, including the greatest of all, Howard Hill. Fred Bear and Glenn St. Charles switched sides but not, I believe, for eye dominance issues. Bear lost a finger tip and St. Charles had a target panic problem. 

For instinctive archery I suspect it may actually be an advantage. So I suggest you embrace it and make it work for you. Kindly also let us know how it goes. Cheers, lbg


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi LBG - I did not know that about Howard Hill - it is encouraging to hear though. I would love to hear what makes you suspect that it might be turned to an advantage, so I can think about that some more. Thanks! 



longbowguy said:


> Many of the early greats of our sport were cross-eye dominant, including the greatest of all, Howard Hill. Fred Bear and Glenn St. Charles switched sides but not, I believe, for eye dominance issues. Bear lost a finger tip and St. Charles had a target panic problem.
> 
> For instinctive archery I suspect it may actually be an advantage. So I suggest you embrace it and make it work for you. Kindly also let us know how it goes. Cheers, lbg


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

LOL!
Yes I am a troll! 
So what!
It stirs up controversy and passion. Even if nobody changes their mind, they none the less do wind up thinking. Oh good Lord! Can't have any of that can we?


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Powertools have their uses. Still, you might want to consider getting a life. Being a full-time jackwagon, instigator, and two-handed ****-stirrer on an archery board seems like a weird way to try to improve society.

And I wonder if you'd still feel so important if you realized that you're not stirring up "controversy and passion" but widespread "mild annoyance at yet another example of someone acting dorky on the internet." 




Charon said:


> LOL!
> Yes I am a troll!
> So what!
> It stirs up controversy and passion. Even if nobody changes their mind, they none the less do wind up thinking. Oh good Lord! Can't have any of that can we?


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## harvyh (Nov 21, 2010)

MaidMarian, while the content of this thread seems to be staying mostly on track, let me add.

I'm new to archery as of last December. I joined a local club (field archers/bowhunters) and found that I am left eye dominant (I'm left handed to so that was no surprise).

I purchased my first bow - a cheap recurve, and shot fingers and a simple plastic rest.

After 3 or 4 club Sunday shoots, my cheap recurve suffered a de-lamination of the bottom limb. So I bit the bullet and purchased a used compound from an AT member. I then fitted it it out with sight, rest, stabilizer, d-loop. Bought some new arrows and a decent release aid.

My scores did NOT dramatically improve. It is now after 6 months of constant practice and form fault correction by the excellent folk at the club that I am seeing an improvement.

So in MY case, all the fancy doo-dads that go to make up an efficient compound bow, did not just make me magically become a better archer........ it was the continuous execution of shot after shot that achieved this.

Sorry, I have to refute your 80% its the bow.

I have since replaced the limbs on my recurve and am enjoying shooting it at home - just for the practice - one day I will take it to the club and give em hell, but in the meantime, I will shoot the compound and watch my form and scores improve.

Cheers
Harvy


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi Harvy - I'd say that since you started with the compound instead of a recurve (as you say, 3 or 4 shoots with a defective bow), you're learning on a compound without learning a recurve... So it took 6 months to see an improvement - I bet that's about right for a beginner with a recurve OR a compound. Either way, gotta learn! Compounds and recurves are apples and oranges - one relies heavily on equipment and the other doesn't. I know compound is its own skill - even compound shooters will say "It's the shooter, not the bow!" and I have seen discussions where folks say "I outshot a guy with a 2011 eight bajillion dollar bow with my 1997 five bajillion dollar bow!" Even for them, the notion that a skilled archer will transcend equipment exists. There is a continuum. I could show up at the range tomorrow with a compound bow worth the entire GNP of a third-world country and shoot no better than a dog firing out of its butt. I'd miss everything. Arrows would end up in Idaho. The bow is no guarantee for anyone, and I'm sure it takes work to be able to master the business of a compound. 

My point is that it's easier - for equally experienced archers in all classes - for the pimped out, tricked out, high tech bows to score high. That's not controversial. Fine compound shooters don't count to 300 for their NFAA scores - they say they got "58" or "63" meaning that's how many Xs they got! Everyone knows that. Compound shooters might joke to trad shooters "You sure must like to miss!" or "You're a brave lady." (I got the latter recently and I have no idea why he thought I was brave - it's not like I was facing down a zombie horde with my little bow and arrow), and trad shooters might say "Sure, you can shoot that contraption, but what happens if I give you an actual bow and arrow?" - everyone has their own biases and pride, their own inclinations and passions and values, their own ideals. In this day and age, I think EVERYONE who shoots a bow and arrow is a romantic at heart. Guns are easier and the most modern. Archers of every stripe and creed like the feeling of connection to the instrument and the projectile and the terrain. We all feel our arrows the way nobody can really "feel" a bullet. We are, every one of us, romantics and poets at the shoot. No matter what kind of bow or arrow. But yes - I do think that the noblest form of archery is the self-bow. Then the longbow. And then the trad recurve (which I shoot) and then the aluminum, and then the compound. With every movement away from the simple and into the complex, the truth of archery is, in my opinion, lost. And that truth is the naked eye, the naked bow, and the skill of the person who made and shot it. I shoot laminate recurves, both production bows, and I love it. Some day I truly aspire to be more than this, and to understand archery the way only someone who has actually sat down night after night to gently form and shape the instrument must know it. But I'll be old and grey by then. This is where I begin. This is what my heart tells me is true, so it's true for me. My goal is not to get the most Xs with a bow made with sophisticated technology. My goal is to get my mind and body and eye all aligned with each other so I can make good groupings, without a lot of technological assists. We live in a world where so much is done for us - our air is cooled, our water purified, our meat clean and packaged, the internet, computers, sophisticated medicine, sophisticated information, sophisticated everything - and I love all of it for the quality of life it brings. But doing this one thing as pure and simple as possible is so beautiful to me, such a relief and relaxation, so grounding and natural and REAL - I would not give up trad barebow for a compound in a million years. What I get from this way of shooting is what I need - it's as good to me as farm-fresh eggs and milk. Fancy contraption bows repel me. It's how I feel, and I sure don't expect the whole world to be on board with it. They repel me because they make archery easier, and I don't want another easy thing, like a plastic gallon of milk. I want something other than that with all my heart. I want to achieve something that I don't need fancy technology to get good at. I'm a historian and I use a computer and I wouldn't have it any other way. God bless my computer and all the computers that tell my computer things from vast distances. Just this one thing though, this thing I want to be really... Human. Not post-human, not technological, not done for me. Just this, I want for myself. 

Stickbow will always be harder to get Xs with than compounds and fancy sighted Olympic bows. It's really not controversial. In every case it's the shooter, not the bow. But the simpler the bow, the better the shooter has to be. It's really that simple.

So yeah. I love trad barebow and have a deep unlike of the others *for myself and in my mind*. It's not a superficial preference, it's a really personal and kind of deep one. I am humbled by the fact that I shoot, and will for a long time I am sure, maybe always - a fine production bow with modern laminates. Also, I can't fletch yet. I get my cedar arrows from a man who makes them with all the craftsmanship and pride of a man who makes fine chairs with nothing but a simple lathe. I respect him. I'd spend a lot of time and money getting to the point where I could make arrows a tenth as good as his. But I know that these things are helps to me, and that I am less of an archer for not really understanding arrows, or really understanding bows. My respect is reserved for those who do - not those who have gone so far afield of the craftsmanship and simplicity that all their stuff is made by machines. Just typing that gives me the wibblies. Machines do enough. We should have something that doesn't require them.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Page 53 has the specs and rules for the NFAA indoor round (which includes the 300 round):

http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/956-2010527-2010-2011 Constitution & By-Laws.pdf


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

maidmarian said:


> Also, can someone explain wth this means: " Ali's and 3 Under in Longbow which wasn't allowed, he made the changes to Split finger and woodie" -- found it in a discussion of NFAA 300. Discussions in which everyone seems to be speaking a foreign language, lol.


Not sure if this query was answered, didn't look like it was so I'll take a shot. It sounds like the guy showed up with ali's (aluminum arrows) and was shooting 3 fingers under which wasn't allowed and he changed to shooting split finger (mediterranean release) and woodies(wood arrows). It did sound foreign.

To your original post I've been shooting cross-dominant forever, I've done reasonably well in competitions both Stateside and International. More of a reference to the fact that it can be done.

I did make a switch when I had injured my shoulder in a mt bike accident. It was an 8 month change but once my shoulder healed up I switched back to cross-dominant primarily because my release hand and followthrough felt more fluid and coordinated on the right side. Most of the shooting sports info I've found both in archery and firearms recommends shooting with your dominant eye. I found some information in a Korean Archery book that suggested using the stronger side to shoot with rather than basing it on eye dominance.

I squint or nearly close my left eye to shoot righty, but a friend/coach has been urging me to shoot with both eyes open. His suggestion was to blink the left eye to show which image to choose and execute the shot with both eyes open. Great question and there is some fine information that has come forth. Keep shooting!


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks muchly, Arrowwood. Not sure how many pdfs I got through without finding this one, at least three or four. Cheers! 



Arrowwood said:


> Page 53 has the specs and rules for the NFAA indoor round (which includes the 300 round):
> 
> http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/956-2010527-2010-2011 Constitution & By-Laws.pdf


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

Bebe - thanks for the translation! Good to hear that a Korean archery book suggests shooting with the stronger side - since that's what I went with, it's nice to have some support for the confirmation bias beyond gut feeling. 

I like the winking suggestion. I am going to give that a whirl! Sounds like it could be effective and also winking at the target seems like a fun way to tell it that we're both in on the joke at the X. :-D So far anyway! 



Bebe said:


> Not sure if this query was answered, didn't look like it was so I'll take a shot. It sounds like the guy showed up with ali's (aluminum arrows) and was shooting 3 fingers under which wasn't allowed and he changed to shooting split finger (mediterranean release) and woodies(wood arrows). It did sound foreign.
> 
> To your original post I've been shooting cross-dominant forever, I've done reasonably well in competitions both Stateside and International. More of a reference to the fact that it can be done.
> 
> ...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

maidmarian said:


> he started telling me about this religion that he has invented, and it involved dragons and getting to be a god and having a cosmos and stuff. He also told me that he met Luna, the Moon Goddess. it's not like I was facing down a zombie horde with my little bow and arrow


LOL...where in the world do you live?

It's got to be Cali :wink:

It's a total riot reading some of your posts and stories about your expereinces. Love 'em :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## northern boy (Aug 25, 2010)

I,m right handed a left eye dominant I shoot with both eyes open an do ok with it. I put my focus on the target an try to keep arrow out of sight picture out to 40 yd,s. I also like to test myself with a 40cm 300 round. But I only shoot 20 arrows instead of 60 an just times by 3. Why 20 arrows I find boring to shoot 60 arrows from same spot. an 20 arrows gives you a great clue know you are shooting. I just shot a 240 this mourning all week I,ve been in the 210-218 range. An a also change bows alot. All a have three steps I try to do with each shot. One come to anchor settle in. Two keep bow hand up till arrow reaches target an good release. if I do all three thing I usally have a good arrow. Skip one of those steps an a not so good arrow. I think you shooting pretty good. Takes a lot of arrows to get a good forum going an have everything right. If I have a bad round I just call myself stuid an try the next day. I also like to mix things up shooting from different postion canting thebow to weird angles. Sitting kneeling an shooting backwards an also different objects. But shooting targets is the best way to see if you are improving. Good luck an have fun. If it ain,t fun make it fun.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

maidmarian said:


> Anyway - today I messed around with shutting my left eye to make my right eye do the work. This was suggested by my brother, who is a very accomplished sniper (with a law enforcement agency,* the kind that roll out for HRWT and security for dignitaries, not the creepy belltower kind)*.


THAT,....is very funny.:thumbs_up

Kev
<><


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

maidmarin, I'm right hand right eye but shoot lefthand. I taught myself to shoot left after an injury. It took along time but I love archery and was determined to keep shooting the recurve bow. At that time I forgot all about the dominant eye shooting, just so I could stay focused on shooting left hand. Some days are good, some not so good. Then there are those wonderful days when everything comes together and I shoot great! I do have to stay with a lower draw weight. Thanks! scout4<><


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

northern boy said:


> I,m right handed a left eye dominant I shoot with both eyes open an do ok with it. I put my focus on the target an try to keep arrow out of sight picture out to 40 yd,s. I also like to test myself with a 40cm 300 round. But I only shoot 20 arrows instead of 60 an just times by 3. Why 20 arrows I find boring to shoot 60 arrows from same spot. an 20 arrows gives you a great clue know you are shooting. I just shot a 240 this mourning all week I,ve been in the 210-218 range. An a also change bows alot. All a have three steps I try to do with each shot. One come to anchor settle in. Two keep bow hand up till arrow reaches target an good release. if I do all three thing I usally have a good arrow. Skip one of those steps an a not so good arrow. I think you shooting pretty good. Takes a lot of arrows to get a good forum going an have everything right. If I have a bad round I just call myself stuid an try the next day. I also like to mix things up shooting from different postion canting thebow to weird angles. Sitting kneeling an shooting backwards an also different objects. But shooting targets is the best way to see if you are improving. Good luck an have fun. If it ain,t fun make it fun.


Shooting 20 and then multiplying doesn't really get the whole scope of the 300 round, its about mental endurance. The first 20 arrows are always the best and I can usually shoot a 22-24 for the first couple of ends, lucky to get 21 by the last round.

As for the OP:
Don't judge other archers on their tackle. I used to think like that then I took a much harder look at the Olympic side and its got layers of skill that most trad shooters will never know exist. Getting a good score based upon your good arrows is a lot less critical then getting a bad score based upon a few bad shots.

There is also a Barebow category in the Olympics but few people shoot it so it doesn't get much coverage. It's a very different game then trad shooting though.

-Grant


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## northern boy (Aug 25, 2010)

I just use the 300 round as a test most people you are into it use light weight bow so they can shoot the 60 arrows . Shooting 60 arrows with hunting weight bow is tough an severs no purpose for me. It,s just a test to see if I,m improving or if I shoot one bow better then another. But Understand what you are saying.


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...where in the world do you live?
> 
> It's got to be Cali :wink:
> 
> ...


I live in Kansas! No kidding! It's a quirky college town though - Haskell Indian Nations University is here, and the University of Kansas, and it's about 20 minutes from Kansas City so it's more urban and eclectic than most Kansas towns, which are generally more rural. Most of the oddballs in Kansas end up here, just like most of the oddballs in Indiana end up in Bloomington.  I love it here! Picked up a hitchhiker on I-70 here once who was carrying an honest to god harpoon - he was a Native American dude who had hitchhiked here all the way from Alaska to get to Haskell. I was just dying to know what was up with that harpoon, I generally don't pick up hitchhikers. He does trad fishing with it.

I do tend to meet wacky people, probably mostly because they don't freak me out or scare me - so when they start talking strange talk (strange to me anyway) and I don't shut them down or run away, and just demonstrate curiosity and respect for their unique views... I hear a lot of interesting stuff. When I lived in Boston there was a guy with multiple personality disorder who panhandled on my walking route to work. I usually picked up a McMuffin for him when I bought mine in the morning. It was interesting talking to someone who had multiple personalities. Two of them really liked me but the other one was kind of a jerk. I just like people. Everyone you'll ever meet has an interesting story and has interesting ideas and experiences. I don't think there's a genuinely boring person on this whole planet. Some of them have their treasure buried deeper than others, but everyone shows out to be interesting if they feel they won't be judged, and if they think you'll value what they've got in their heads.


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## cyclepath (Jul 1, 2009)

wow, let's see if we can simplify things alittle for you. This is not rocket science. You want to have fun first of all. Think of your brain as a computer. You have to program the computer to do what you want, right. Example, when you learned to throw a ball, depending on the distance, you programed your brain how hard and how far to throw the ball, at what point to let go of the ball and where to aim the ball. Over time ( practice ) this became second nature. You didn't close one eye or over think the throw because you programed that into your brain. This is the same in archery. Over time you will program your brain how to hold the bow, draw the bow, aim the bow and shoot the bow. Don't over think things, just take your time and program your shot, you'll get there. Above all just have fun.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

maidmarian said:


> I live in Kansas! No kidding! It's a quirky college town though - Haskell Indian Nations University is here, and the University of Kansas, and it's about 20 minutes from Kansas City so it's more urban and eclectic than most Kansas towns, which are generally more rural.


Ah ... so you aren't in the BIG CITY where I use to live - WICHITA !!!

(Stationed at McConnell AFB, SAC Titan II ICBM MCCC)

Go Shockers !!!

(Got a couple of degrees from WSU while I was in Kansas - and picked up a wife, too!)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

maidmarian said:


> I live in Kansas! No kidding!


Well...that explains it than. You live near the land of Oz :wink:

I'm just playin'. Where ever your from...you're more than welcome here.

Ray :shade:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

As others have suggested , perhaps shoot some of the more 'modern equipment ' before dismissing it as easy .
Too be at the top of the game in any area of archery takes commitment and talent , regardless of equipment used .


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## maidmarian (Jun 14, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> As others have suggested , perhaps shoot some of the more 'modern equipment ' before dismissing it as easy .
> Too be at the top of the game in any area of archery takes commitment and talent , regardless of equipment used .


1) Don't mischaracterize what I said. 2) I'm not going back into that can of worms. It got all kinds of thrashed out and sorted in another thread that was actually about that issue instead of eye dominance. Does a mod need to lock this thread? I can start another one about eye dominance and try to keep that one on track.


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