# Companies responsibilties.



## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

First, calm down and put the slingshot away, violence is not the answer. Those limbs look like they came out of the microwave!

Will Greenhorn send you several pairs of limbs so you can choose the best ones? Do you know anyone who owns a good set of their limbs? If yes, then they could make good limbs if they wanted. I doubt they want their reputation being trashed worldwide so I would think they'd want to make the situation right.

I've had dealings with retail stores who did not have their return policy clearly posted. Most are willing to cooperate if you're calm and reasonable. Some aren't. What is the store's published policy on returns? Has Greenhorn refused to refund your purchase price? How far is their company from you? If it's not too far, maybe a personal visit is in order

Do you have any local news "troubleshooters"? They're very popular over here and bring a lot of unwanted attention to the sellers who are giving a consumer a hard time. You could publish pictures of those limbs on all the classifieds you can find, touting their "superior quality" and the great service from the retailer. Be sure you notify both manufacturer and retailer when you post the ad. 

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

As stated above. The only wrong I see coming from Greenhorn is the fact that they don't make quality limbs. At least not in my case. When you pay $602.87USD or $850.87CAD then add on the $128.13CAD it took to get through customs. The limbs is near to $1000CAD. You expect the limbs to be high in the quality and shootability factors. Neither of these are so. But, it's not greenhorn's responsibility. They are the manufacturer. Not the distributor. 

I bought the limbs from Alternative services. They are the company that are giving me the run around. If I was Greenhorn. I would talk it over with Alternative and fix it so that "the consumer could recieve money back in return of faulty products". But I'm neither the, vendor nor the manufacturer. 

I am the consumer who's basically been fubar'd

It's all stated in Citizens Advice under consumer affairs. Which deals with England, Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland. England is where I bought the product from. So that english distributor is responsible.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Doug, I've been hearing nothing but horror stories about dealing with Alternative services over the phone. I have PM's from British people over on Sagitt website that have told me about how Tony deals with customers over the phone or face to face for that matter. Also how he tends to deal with customer service. Funny, the odd time he actually deals with a customer properly (example:Returns a pair of Samick Extreme limbs for replacment for somebody in Ireland). In my case. I'm not looking for replacement from the manufacture. I don't have to ask for a replacement from the manufacture. It's the distributors responsibilty under British law, which covers distributorship into other countries. 

Stated by law, even being in Canada. It is the responsibility of the vendor to refund me for faulty equipment. In this case. I have more then ample evidence. Which I do not need (because it's the responsibility of the vendor to prove if the equipment is suitable or not). 

But I have evidence proving it anyhow.

Read the article from Citizens advice. It's pretty clear. 

I have tried to contact Greenhorn over the phone. When I was waiting 3 months to recieve the second set of limbs. I got an answering machine and it was in Belgium. But I don't need to call them. This is Alternatives matter.

This isn't about a refund on here. More so making sure people know full well what they are dealing with before they buy from a company like Alternative services.

Dylan

PS. Merlin is a British company and they have great customer Service.


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## Xander (Dec 4, 2003)

Dylan, 

Get a live...


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

WAAaa WAAAaa WAAaa WAAAaaaa  Really, how old are you? Do you really think this will help anything? Like Xander said--- Get a life!!!


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

> I've been hearing nothing but horror stories about dealing with Alternative services over the phone. I


So heresay is what's keeping you from satisfaction?

You'd rather come here and complain as opposed to contact the source of the issue and get it taken care of?

Dylan, I feel your pain but this negativity is not the answer.

Call the company or distributer.

Posting all this nonsense doesn't get you any closer to getting your money back or getting new limbs brother.

Find the solution to the problem instead of adding symptoms man.

I'm not jumping on you here, honest. I feel your pain but your going about it the wrong way brother.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I will no longer be replying to this thread. If you want to question me about my intent of this thread. Contact me VIA PM. 

Dylan


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## cgehring (Jan 20, 2004)

then why did you post it


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

are you still fighting with them? man that is sad. i would just want my money back too.  

bad company if you ask me.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

cgehring said:


> then why did you post it



So people like yourself don't make the mistake of buying something expensive from a supposidly reputable company and then getting screwed over.

This thread is your education.  

Dylan


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## cgehring (Jan 20, 2004)

but man this has gotta be the millionth time 
no offence but I think we all got it by now 
I remember this from last year


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

> I will no longer be replying to this thread.


Please honor your promise Dylan.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

trying to remember where I promised?


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Lesson to be learnt. Buy from a big company that sells internationally on a large scale - Hoyt, W&W, Beiter, Sure-Loc, etc.


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## oleg (Feb 26, 2003)

it looks like they sold you 2 limbs from two different sets


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Looks like you got shafted to Me*

But I have been reading about this matter from you for about a year and half.
If you have legal remedies open to you, stop whining and do something about it. It is obvious that you have been sold a load of crap. Sue em.
Jbird


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Unfortunately, I can't afford to get a lawyer.


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## 3dcuda (Mar 7, 2003)

*lawyer*

dylan,

not trying to be a smart ***** , but if you can spend a grand on limbs for your bow you can probably afford a lawyer......no offense to you but just an observation.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I had to save for those limbs. When I want something. I am very diligent about saving the funds for it. The cost of a lawyer is way out of my league.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> I had to save for those limbs. When I want something. I am very diligent about saving the funds for it. The cost of a lawyer is way out of my league.


Go to the court clerks office. Get the forms and fill them out yourself then get them filed with the court. They will tell you how. You can do it without a lawyer but it will be trial and error and expect some setbacks, nonetheless, it can be done. You can also find the documents online and print them out for a small fee. I say go for it. It will cost you alot of time but little money.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I really dunno Doug. If I send them back I could wait months, maybe years to get a replacement pair that I will be only trying to sell as soon as I recieve them anyhow. Why should they bother spending the time making a replacment pair? When after 2 pairs of crappy limbs, I definitely won't be shooting the replacements. I mean it would probably cost less to give me my money back then to spend the time making new limbs.

I don't understand why they don't let me send the limbs back and return me my money. It's plain as day that they are not quality limbs. They could cut all the strings and let it be. I have no confidence in either the seller or the manufacturer. So it's not like I care to continue doing business with them. 

Dylan


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## oleg (Feb 26, 2003)

MerlinApexDylan!
you 'll not get your money back maybe, but you took revenge upon them in such effective way! I believe no one from AT will never look on GH bows with interest after your thread!


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Dylan,

Have you emailed the link to this thread to Green Horn ?
If not, do it !
If they care about their products, they will respond in a positive way.
Best of luck to you.


Sag.


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## Africanbowhunter (May 29, 2003)

ttt


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## Ailurophile (Mar 8, 2004)

*Legal recourse*

I think you might have gone about this the wrong way. Once you start threatening a merchant, citing legal recourse, you have to be prepared to actually seek a remedy through the courts.

In this case, you might not have the law behind you, even if you did decide to sue. I followed your consumer affairs link, and came away with a completely different interpretation than yours. The first sentence of that web site is: "Consumer problems: options for the customer 

This information applies to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland".

Granted, we Americans are a little weak on geography, but when last I checked, Alberta, Canada wasn't in any of those places. Even if you were England, you'd probably have to take the complaint to court, to determine what the appropriate solution would be.

If you've threatened the dealer with a lawsuit, you can't really expect them to do much for you voluntarily. In their position, my reaction would be to say "sue me" and escort you off the premises.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I never stated anywhere, not even in emails to them that I would sue them. Never stated anything about quote-unquote - the word "sue". After I didn't get any sort of satisfaction. Even if I stated that I am within my rights to make it a legal matter. I never stated anything about a suit. 

So....... suing? What is that word? I don't believe I've used it. Not even on here. If I did. Then I must be mistaken and apologise for my ignorance.

Both of my mother born in England and Estranged father of Northern Ireland are from GRB. It wouldn't take me much to get a passport, nor duel-citizenship if I chose to. That would thus make me a citizen of GRB and give me rights under their laws I believe, wouldn't it?

With the price paid and 2xfailure to produce a sufficient product. All I want to do is cut the strings. Get my money back and move on. 

I've said honestly, that they (greenhorn) want me to send the limbs back. But I will not stand for another set of substandard limbs or even waste the money for shipping to send this set back. Should I send this set back. I feel a return of money is the only suitable tradeoff. 

Otherwise, if I am a being a fool. At least i've educated a few. 

Dylan


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Dylan, yes you have educated a few. You have educated quite a few people that you may be nothing more than a misguided zealot windbag beating a drum to a lost cause.

You may not have said that you wanted to sue but you have stated the following:

1. You do not want to do any future business with either the manufacturer or retailer.

2. You have stated that the manufacturer's product is of poor quality.

3. You have stated that the manufacturer wants to try to satisfy you with a third set of limbs, which you have declined.

4. You have stated that you cannot afford to sue.

NOW, why would either the manufacturer or retailer either feel compelled to or want to do anything to satisfy you or to have anything else to do with you?

I would not.

This thread has become funny. I only read it in order to see how many times you will continue to post to a thread that you stated you would no longer post to.


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## Ailurophile (Mar 8, 2004)

*Legal Recourse*

Even if you *were* a British citizen, you wouldn't be covered by the laws you've referred to on this thread. You have to make your purchase in one of the countries where the law applies. Even then, having the law on your side is meaningless unless you're willing to seek recourse through the law *in one of those countries*.

I'm afraid that I'm inclined to agree with FS560. Green Horn's been making bows for a century now, and is used by quite a few European champion archers. Your claim that they're unable to make a single pair of limbs that are free from defects is absurd.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Doug, I don't want the refund from Greenhorn... that leaves only one other place I'd want it from. 

FS560. Have you ever been in my situation? 2 screwed up bows later and still want to deal with the same manufacture after. Look at the pictures. 2 +900 dollar limb pairs on the sides and a $600 pair in the middle. Oh, and I'm sure you'd be a "fanatic" about getting what you paid for also.

Ailu. They may make a fantastic pair of limbs. They are batting 100% failure when it comes to me and why should I trust it will be any different with the third pair? 100 plus years? Could have fooled me.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> I will no longer be replying to this thread. If you want to question me about my intent of this thread. Contact me VIA PM.
> 
> Dylan


That was posted on February 21, 2005 and you have posted SEVEN times since.

If you do not want others to respond to your fanatical ranting, don't put it out here for all to see. I stand by everything stated in my post above.

And don't waste your time sending me any more wimpy PMs like the one you just sent or I will copy and paste them here in open forum.


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## Ailurophile (Mar 8, 2004)

*Legal recourse*

Dylan, if any substantial percentage of Green Horn's customers felt the same way you do, they'd be out of business. the only way they can get the prices they do, is that the vast majority of the people who own their products are delighted with them.

Your options are limited. You say you don't intend to take this dispute to court (even if British consumer laws did apply). That seems to leave you with only two choices. You can accept their offer of a new set of limbs, or you can live with the bow in the condition it's in now.

The dictionary definition of integrity is "doing what you say you'll do". Green Horn is required to live up to their warranty, no more.

By the way, a little economics 101: Green Horn sold the bow to their dealer, who sold it to you. Part of your money's in one pocket, part in another. What you're asking Green Horn to do, is refund the wholesale cost of the bow, plus the dealer's profit. LOL.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I never recieved any warranty on paper for the limbs. When the first set blew up in my face. I was going on sheer faith that I would actually get warranty on these limbs. NOW IF YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING ON THEIR WEBSITE TO THE CONTRARY That states they actually deal with warranty on their products and the manner in which they deal with the warranty? Let me know. Greenhorn 


From : Greenhorn bows <[email protected]>
Sent : April 29, 2004 3:02:06 AM
To : [email protected]
Subject : RE: RESPOND!.

MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Originating-IP: [81.82.129.166]
X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]]
X-Sender: [email protected]
Received: from 81.82.129.166 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:02:06 GMT
Dear Mr. Mason,

We suggest you send us the limbs back. We will try to find out what's wrong with the limbs.
As soon as we know if there is something wrong with them, we will send you new limbs.
If there is nothing wrong with those limbs , I ( World champion, Olympic competitor) will shoot with these limbs at the world championships this summer to proof there is nothing wrong with the limbs.

From the 1000 reactions, we get 999 positive comment, and 1 bad. It's really not necessary to make such a problem about this. You will get new limbs , if there's something wrong with them.
We will make a deal: If there's nothing wrong with the limbs , i'll shoot with the limbs at the world championships; if i win a medal , you quit with archery.Deal?

Serious now, send us the limbs back so we can see it for ourselves.

King regards

Francis 

This is the response I got after sending them photo's and waiting a few months. 

This was my final email that actually got a response after months of emailing. Notice the date I sent it was April 3rd and the date a recieved the email was April 29th... almost a full month.

Here is what I wrote to finally get a response after waiting a few months.

From: "Dylan Mason" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RESPOND!.
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 16:02:26 -0700

Sooo, now that it's been a few months and those 602.87USD limbs have been sitting on my floor because they are unstable and everything else I have claimed. I came to notice that one limb tip was smaller then the other. The bottom limb tip being smaller then the top. Then I put the limbs side by side. Low and behold, the bottom limb is about 1/8 to 1/4 shorter then the other limb. So, I've paid out my nose for a pair of limbs, recieved another pair of warranty limbs after the first pair blew up and the second pair are faulty. But greenhorn as a company will do nothing about it. Great customer service guys. Really on the ball. I think Greenhorn and Alternative services need to have a little meeting and get on the ball here. I don't expect a reply, so thanks for the second pair of crappy limbs. I doubt either of the companies will go so far as to take the limbs back and return my money.

Sincerly one pissed of customer.

Dylan Mason
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FS560.. piss off. Do you feel like threatening me with crap like PM's. Go right ahead. I have a better idea. I will post my PM to you on here. I am probably one of the most honest people on this board. Perhaps too honest in with what I write in some cases, to the point of offending someone.

Here is what I wrote to FS560.

"Give me a break. "Fanatical"? I don't seem to recall calling you any sort of name. But if you feel so inclined.

I see you found the thread so amusing that you were forced to post your own opinion about the matter.. You or any number of others could have PM'd me. I seem to recall stating people could PM me about the matter???

I'm simply replying to the thread. Since the only one to reply or state an opinion through PM has been DougK.

Dylan".

Don't ever threaten me FS560.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Possibly Alternative should consider returning the limbs and swapping them with limbs from another company. You may lose some money on the deal Dylan, but at least you will have some limbs in the end. 
Try Samick Extreme or Masters. 



> We will make a deal: If there's nothing wrong with the limbs , i'll shoot with the limbs at the world championships; if i win a medal , you quit with archery.Deal?


That's great! LOL I'm writing that into all our warranty papers.  Very funny.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Dylan, if you have to resort to vulgar language to express your animosity toward my opinion, you may have other issues far more grave than anyone here on AT can help you with.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

DougK said:


> Dylan,
> 
> I have to agree with FS...
> 
> ...


good advice-and for those who don't know FS (J Q) was a top flight professional well respected by just about everyone in US Archery.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Yeah, maybe I'd actually follow some of this advice if Greenhorn had a real phone number on their website. I don't have a fax machine and all they have up there is a fax# for their phone and their fax. 

Funny, Alternative removed Greenhorn from it's list of product.


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## Ailurophile (Mar 8, 2004)

*Green Horn archery Products*

Actually, They do have a phone number on their web site. It's 00 32 3 295 41 04. Or, you can send them a message using their Info/Support form, and ask how you can contact someone who can help you, *o*r you can E-mail them at [email protected] .


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Look at the phone # and then compare it to their fax #. As for info support. It takes a very long time.


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## Ailurophile (Mar 8, 2004)

*Green Horn Customer Support*

By golly, you're right! The same phone number receives both Faxes and regular phone messages! So does mine. So what?

The point is, Green Horn isn't going to open a Canadian branch, just to take care of your complaint. If it's not worth the required effort to you to contact them, you can be sure you're never going to resolve this. 

Didn't they tell you they get only one complaint per thousand sales? That means you're in the one tenth of one percent who complains to them, and they've already exchanged limbs for you once. They probably have you written off as a nut, and are hoping they never hear from you again.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Really. Well I tried calling that phone # and well guess what.. BY GOLLY it sounded like a FAX machine.

I'm not asking for a Canadian branch, smart guy. One trustworthy person to talk to on the phone and ask if I can send the limbs back and that they will contact me when the limbs arrive so that I may get them replaced. Or they can see for themselves what the limbs look like. 

Not waiting four months with no reply and wonder what the heck they are doing about replacing my limbs. Like I delt with the first time. Then recieving a pair of limbs that wouldn't make it past any good bowyers quality control.

Dylan


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Oh, and do you have anything else to add? Besides some insult to an already tenuous situation. Look at the photo's on the first page. 1 set of blown up limbs and another set that are utter garbage. Is that a way to do business?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Or I even wish Merlin had limbs at the time. Ben and Merlin are a treat to deal with. They are tops for companies anywhere in the world. They are fast on delivery and fast if you need help with anything. 

Dylan :smile:


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I know the website. Yes, I have limbs. I had to buy them this past summer, because the Ellipse are untunable, nor shootable.


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