# It's Officially Unofficial - Intermediate Round



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Why not just convert over to WA field rules? IMHO WAAAAAAAY more beginner friendly and yet nobody has shot a perfect round.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> Why not just convert over to WA field rules? IMHO WAAAAAAAY more beginner friendly and yet nobody has shot a perfect round.
> 
> -Grant


First that would not be feasible as WA field is a 24 target round... I assume it is a totally different game, different faces, etc. and I have no idea what the WA field rules are. I'm not trying to solve world hunger, just trying a simple method to lure in some new blood.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It's actually a 12 target unit which is repeated for a 24.

VERY simple to set-up, run and explain compared to NFAA. Definitely a growth sport with the potential to compete internationally.

-Grant


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

EPLC said:


> There was some discussion last season about starting a competition intermediate round with a maximum distance of 50 Yards. We here in the RIFAA are going to implement this on a trial basis this season at our shoots. Currently the thinking is to reduce everything over 50 yards to 50 yards but I haven't ruled out just using the youth yardages instead. The object is to lure new shooters into field archery. Word is out and I'm getting some interest from some folks that normally wouldn't even consider field. Wish me luck!


Maybe just that standard NFAA field round, but shoot it from the youth pegs? Those are 50 yards max.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> It's actually a 12 target unit which is repeated for a 24.
> 
> VERY simple to set-up, run and explain compared to NFAA. Definitely a growth sport with the potential to compete internationally.
> 
> -Grant


Between RI and MA there are 9 or 10 clubs supporting NFAA field shoots. I can not imagine there would be any support for this suggestion. And I am trying to build up the NFAA field round attendance, not get rid of it. Not to say there isn't the option of introducing WA field at some point but that would be a huge undertaking just from a political sense. 



J. Wesbrock said:


> Maybe just that standard NFAA field round, but shoot it from the youth pegs? Those are 50 yards max.


I am considering that option but I want to stay away from the term "Youth Stakes". I prefer to call this an intermediate round to avoid any feelings that this would not be a serious competition for those that choose to shoot this class.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

So you don't use the 65 cm face? Or how does that work?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> So you don't use the 65 cm face? Or how does that work?


Actually I would use the 65 cm face, just shoot it from 50 yards, or less should I choose to use the youth markers. This way it allows you to run a standard shoot along with the intermediate class. Nothing changes, just some folks are shooting a 50 yard max. The more I think about this, the more the youth stakes make sense. Everything out to 50 yards remains the same as the adult yardages. The 55 would be shot from 40 yards, the 60 would be shot from 45 yards and the 65 and 80 would be shot from 50 yards.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Actually I would use the 65 cm face, just shoot it from 50 yards, or less should I choose to use the youth markers. This way it allows you to run a standard shoot along with the intermediate class. Nothing changes, just some folks are shooting a 50 yard max.


So you would have 5 stations at 50 yards with the 65 cm face instead of the 80wu 65 60 55 plus the original 50 yarder. 

Just trying to get what you are doing. Would love to get more people interested in field around here ad well. All attempts so far hasn't been successful.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> So you would have 5 stations at 50 yards with the 65 cm face instead of the 80wu 65 60 55 plus the original 50 yarder.
> 
> Just trying to get what you are doing. Would love to get more people interested in field around here ad well. All attempts so far hasn't been successful.


Yes you could do it that way, but as mentioned using the youth yardages may make more sense as you would then only have three 50 yard targets as the 55 and 60 would be shot from 40 and 45 yards. The entire goal here is to get some additional folks to try field archery. Making it less intimidating seems to make sense.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Ok I think I get it now. You'd have 2-40 and 2-45 but on different faces.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> Ok I think I get it now. You'd have 2-40 and 2-45 but on different faces.


Yep!


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

I guess I am just old school but it seems that dumbing down NFAA field will not have a good long term effect. First all of the records have been set on the original distances so any scores shot from 50 yards would have to be put in an entirely new catagory or just disregarded entirely. Secondly I personally find it pretty insulting that a game invented by guys shooting longbows in the late 30's and early 40's is too difficult for today's new shooters. If guys with longbows shooting 160 fops could do this why is it to difficult for the modern bows of today shooting 330 fps with sights, scopes, claifyers, and stabilizers. 

Rather than dumb down the game have all the clubs you mentioned advertise a 3-4 session Learn To Shoot NFAA field at their ranges free of charge. Teach the rules, types of equipment, how to shoot etc. invite the folks back after their initial group lessons and have an experienced shooter and member of the club sponsor them and shoot the course with them the first couple of times. 

I was a PGA golf professional for many years and grew the membership in the clubs I worked at many times by this type of intro to golf course. The number of repeat golfers was significant. At no time did I dumb down the great game of golf. Most folks are intimidated because they just don't understand the game.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Old Sarge said:


> I guess I am just old school but it seems that dumbing down NFAA field will not have a good long term effect. First all of the records have been set on the original distances so any scores shot from 50 yards would have to be put in an entirely new catagory or just disregarded entirely. Secondly I personally find it pretty insulting that a game invented by guys shooting longbows in the late 30's and early 40's is too difficult for today's new shooters. If guys with longbows shooting 160 fops could do this why is it to difficult for the modern bows of today shooting 330 fps with sights, scopes, claifyers, and stabilizers.
> 
> Rather than dumb down the game have all the clubs you mentioned advertise a 3-4 session Learn To Shoot NFAA field at their ranges free of charge. Teach the rules, types of equipment, how to shoot etc. invite the folks back after their initial group lessons and have an experienced shooter and member of the club sponsor them and shoot the course with them the first couple of times.
> 
> I was a PGA golf professional for many years and grew the membership in the clubs I worked at many times by this type of intro to golf course. The number of repeat golfers was significant. At no time did I dumb down the great game of golf. Most folks are intimidated because they just don't understand the game.


There was a time that field archery was the only game in town, your only choice of equipment was recurve or longbow and it was very popular. The game of field archery was also designed for that equipment. Then came the compound and things changed again. Soon the 5-3 scoring system became too easy for many and they changed the game to what it is today. It was at that point that many of those folks that you spoke of put their tails between their legs and quit because they could no longer break 500. Many went into 3D so that was to blame. I think not, but that's another topic. 

We've tried to go the teaching route with zero success. The only folks that showed up for the instruction were a handful of stick bow shooters that had no real intention of actually doing this. I think we can safely say we've protected this venue into near extinction by hanging on and resisting any new ideas. Will this work... who knows? We need something to draw in new blood and I'm at least trying something.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The nature of the NFAA Field round is the entire reason for it's lack of popularity, seconded only by the preponderance of equipment categories.
It WAS an excellent round when it was 5-3 scoring and two equipment choices. It was also a much faster round to shoot and the stigma of a miss was not there.

But hey, clearly what you've been doing is going great and I shouldn't mention that we regularly get 10-15 people out every Sunday in all weathers through the winter months to shoot the WA 14 target we have set-up even though my club is in a very small town.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Not knocking your venue, just not on topic, or pertinent to what I am attempting to do.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Good luck with the change Paul! I hope it takes off. I don't understand why people are so reluctant to try field archery...they hear 80yds and tremble. It's only 2 arrows in a full round and there's a big backstop there!

On a side note...I've been shooting competitive archery for 25 years now, I've shot 3-D, Indoors, Field and USA archery events. I try to be very well versed in the rules of each game...but field archery gets me every time. IMO Field archery needs to make some changes if it wants to survive...the name of the game is shooting arrows into the spot, not oh you just lost 5 points because you shot the wrong target. I feel like a moron when I have to ask the group of people I'm with which target am I supposed to shoot this arrow into! I lost 10pts at Sectionals on Sunday for that last year.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

EPLC said:


> There was a time that field archery was the only game in town, your only choice of equipment was recurve or longbow and it was very popular. The game of field archery was also designed for that equipment. Then came the compound and things changed again. Soon the 5-3 scoring system became too easy for many and they changed the game to what it is today. It was at that point that many of those folks that you spoke of put their tails between their legs and quit because they could no longer break 500. Many went into 3D so that was to blame. I think not, but that's another topic.
> 
> We've tried to go the teaching route with zero success. The only folks that showed up for the instruction were a handful of stick bow shooters that had no real intention of actually doing this. I think we can safely say we've protected this venue into near extinction by hanging on and resisting any new ideas. Will this work... who knows? We need something to draw in new blood and I'm at least trying something.


Well you may be correct and I guess it is worth a try. As someone that was shooting field in the 60's and 70's I guess I'm just to stuck in my ways. Maybe shortening up the course will draw more folks. I certainly hope so. 
We just opened up a new field course in NC which is kind of unusual so maybe there will be some growth on the horizon.
Best if luck in your endeavor and keep us posted on the results.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Old Sarge said:


> Well you may be correct and I guess it is worth a try. As someone that was shooting field in the 60's and 70's I guess I'm just to stuck in my ways. Maybe shortening up the course will draw more folks. I certainly hope so.
> We just opened up a new field course in NC which is kind of unusual so maybe there will be some growth on the horizon.
> Best if luck in your endeavor and keep us posted on the results.


Thanks, and keep in mind I'm not looking to change the basic game, just adding another less demanding class.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

shawn_in_MA said:


> I try to be very well versed in the rules of each game...but field archery gets me every time. IMO Field archery needs to make some changes if it wants to survive...the name of the game is shooting arrows into the spot, not oh you just lost 5 points because you shot the wrong target. I feel like a moron when I have to ask the group of people I'm with which target am I supposed to shoot this arrow into! I lost 10pts at Sectionals on Sunday for that last year.


If it were me I'd ask for a ruling on that. It would seem that the rules are carved in Jell-O with regard to which target is the "correct" one. I've seen more than several interpretations of what is correct. Opinions are like elbows... most seem to have a couple. At the Nationals I was at full draw just about to shoot my first arrow at a bunny target and "bang" an arrow goes in my spot. "Hey, you just shot my target"... "No I didn't", says the guy that shot the arrow. "No he didn't", says his buddy, an NFAA director. Then he goes on to say it's Ok to agree on a different target assignment. So I said, "Don't you think I should be involved in any such agreement? What would have happened if I had shot that target?" So this NFAA director says, "You'd have lost 5 points"... Needless to say things went downhill from that point.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Off and running!*

It's official... we'll be running our intermediate class this season with great hope of success. The intermediate class will be using the Youth stakes so no changes to the course will be required.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

EPLC said:


> If it were me I'd ask for a ruling on that. It would seem that the rules are carved in Jell-O with regard to which target is the "correct" one. I've seen more than several interpretations of what is correct. Opinions are like elbows... most seem to have a couple. At the Nationals I was at full draw just about to shoot my first arrow at a bunny target and "bang" an arrow goes in my spot. "Hey, you just shot my target"... "No I didn't", says the guy that shot the arrow. "No he didn't", says his buddy, an NFAA director. Then he goes on to say it's Ok to agree on a different target assignment. So I said, "Don't you think I should be involved in any such agreement? What would have happened if I had shot that target?" So this NFAA director says, "You'd have lost 5 points"... Needless to say things went downhill from that point.


That’s a giant load of you-know-what. The rules are very clear with respect to shooting the bunny.

Article IV, Section I. 3. 3.2 Page 46:



> 20 cm. Targets. Each archer must choose one column of four target faces on his or her side of the shooting stakes.


If you shot two abreast like we did and the guy shot a column on the wrong side of the shooting stake, then he should have lost points. If you shot four abreast and the guy couldn’t figure out that the archers should shoot the column that corresponds to their position in the left to right order, than that’s unfortunate.

Without belaboring the point, there were several people who had issues with unsportsmanlike conduct of a state director at Yankton last year. Mostly he was heckling other groups during the IFAA shoot. When he did it to us, I politely told him his comments were out of line. Apparently one of the female archers he picked on told him he was acting like a feminine hygiene product. I would have hated to be stuck shooting with him for five days. I suppose people are what they are, and having a title doesn’t change that fact.

Anyway, back on point. We had an issue at last year’s outdoor sections where my daughter’s group (young adult archers) got confused on how to shoot one of the fans – either 28 or 32. They didn’t know who shot which of the four targets, and some of them ended up losing points. After the first fan of that type they asked one of the adults in another group and shot the remaining stations correctly.

I think it's great you added an intermediate class. Hopefully it brings in new people who would otherwise be intimidated by shooting out to 80 yards. I know when our local clubs did the same type of thing at 3D shoots (adding a 30-yard max hunter class) the response was excellent.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I wish we had field archery here.


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## JF from VA (Dec 5, 2002)

I say good for you guys. Anything that introduces new people to the field game is great.



EPLC said:


> There was some discussion last season about starting a competition intermediate round with a maximum distance of 50 Yards. We here in the RIFAA are going to implement this on a trial basis this season at our shoots. Currently the thinking is to reduce everything over 50 yards to 50 yards but I haven't ruled out just using the youth yardages instead. The object is to lure new shooters into field archery. Word is out and I'm getting some interest from some folks that normally wouldn't even consider field. Wish me luck!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

cbrunson said:


> I wish we had field archery here.


There are ways of shooting a WA field round with just 4 butts and some ground markers.

-Grant


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

grantmac said:


> There are ways of shooting a WA field round with just 4 butts and some ground markers.
> 
> -Grant


You can do that with NFAA field too. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine and I each shoot full practice rounds with a single butt and the appropriate yardage markers.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> You can do that with NFAA field too. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine and I each shoot full practice rounds with a single butt and the appropriate yardage markers.


Two butts 15 yards apart works great for nfaa field. 65 cm on the far one rest on the closer butt.

40 and 55 same stake
45 and 60
50 and 65
35 fan and 50 for 80wu same stake.
Minus bunnies only 10 stakes total.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

erdman41 said:


> Two butts 15 yards apart works great for nfaa field. 65 cm on the far one rest on the closer butt.
> 
> 40 and 55 same stake
> 45 and 60
> ...


That's a great idea. Thanks.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

grantmac said:


> There are ways of shooting a WA field round with just 4 butts and some ground markers.
> 
> -Grant



The issue is lack of interest here locally. There are times we can't get people to show up for non-competitive 3D shoots.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

cbrunson said:


> The issue is lack of interest here locally. There are times we can't get people to show up for non-competitive 3D shoots.


Part of the appeal is the record keeping. You can go onto the website and see course records, aggregate scores for the year, best of 3, best of 6. All split by equipment (only 3 categories for WA which is nice).
Also any two club members can shoot the course and write their scores up throughout the week although the vast majority shoot it on the designated league day because it's more fun.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I recommend just evolving into the International Round which is also a quicker, cleaner "field round" that eliminates the silly targets and focuses on standard 20-65 yard targets in 5 yard increments with 3 arrows per target - much quicker, cleaner, and simple, uncomplicated rules for the newbies.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

rsw said:


> I recommend just evolving into the International Round which is also a quicker, cleaner "field round" that eliminates the silly targets and focuses on standard 20-65 yard targets in 5 yard increments with 3 arrows per target - much quicker, cleaner, and simple, uncomplicated rules for the newbies.


The International Round is a good round but doesn't accomplish my goal. The only long shot that round eliminates is the 80 walkup. I'm not trying to make it simpler to understand, I'm trying to make it easier and less intimidating to perform yet still be a competitive round. I have hopes of drawing in some 3D shooters that would not normally consider field. Already seeing some interest, even from some of the traditional shooters. I'm having an instructional shoot on the 24th so I'll have some idea at that time.


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## FLINTHEAD (May 14, 2006)

We just had the State Open Field shoot. We had 43 shooters. The weather was great. Not sure what the answer is-- but 43 shooters out of the entire state is not getting it. Our club tried the 300 round and attendance was low. Just think the field shoot needs some new ideas and rules. Everytime I bring up an idea it is shot down by the same folks[old like me] that have been shooting this form for many years. 
Maybe the intermediate form would bring in new blood. Maybe shortening the standard round so it does not take up to 7 hours to complete would be a start. How many tines do you need to shoot 35 -45 yards in a round? A simplified set of targets would be around 18-20 targets and be more user friendly. A 3-d round takes 2 hours and the shooters can go do something else with their family. 
On the 2nd day, one of our officers made a point that the round has a 5 hour limit and the shooters sounded offended. May not shoot another full field round because I lack the energy to hack a 5-6 hour endurance test. Even the die hard field shooters love the 2nd day as it is 14 hunter and 14 animal targets. 70 arrows shot for score. Will shoot the short 14 target for fun as the field shooting is really fun. Hate to leave it behind. 
Thanks, Roy


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well, our first try at introducing the intermediate round is history. We "did" get some new blood to shoot the but the attendance wasn't anywhere near what I had hoped for. That said; we are still going to offer this round for those that want to shoot it throughout our season. Hopefully the numbers will increase as we proceed. Worst case, nothing will change, best case we'll add some to our dwindling numbers.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well here it is more than a year later and we are still offering the intermediate round at our field shoots. Now that we are into our second season we have actually picked up a couple of shooters that seem to have stuck. While that doesn't sound like much, it's a 20% increase over what we've been getting. We've also had more than a few test the waters but most have moved on. At least we've sparked some interest to try it.. Here in RI we only have two clubs that support field and we've been seeing the same 10-12 people for some time. To pick up a couple more is big when the numbers have dwindled this low. Southeastern MA has several field supporting clubs and they do much better (I attend as many as I can in MA)... In any case we're still plugging.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

EPLC said:


> Well here it is more than a year later and we are still offering the intermediate round at our field shoots. Now that we are into our second season we have actually picked up a couple of shooters that seem to have stuck. While that doesn't sound like much, it's a 20% increase over what we've been getting. We've also had more than a few test the waters but most have moved on. At least we've sparked some interest to try it.. Here in RI we only have two clubs that support field and we've been seeing the same 10-12 people for some time. To pick up a couple more is big when the numbers have dwindled this low. Southeastern MA has several field supporting clubs and they do much better (I attend as many as I can in MA)... In any case we're still plugging.


Good to hear that things are still going well. I really like the idea of the intermediate round for BHFS. Most hunters have a pin out to 50 yards so they would not have to worry about stacking pins.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

ccwilder3 said:


> Good to hear that things are still going well. I really like the idea of the intermediate round for BHFS. Most hunters have a pin out to 50 yards so they would not have to worry about stacking pins.


We don't stack pins anymore... we cheat and set the bubble at 80  . I suppose it might bring more guys out, but the vast majority of the bowhunters I know won't even come out for a 3D, much less a field round. Honestly, I like shooting 70 and 80 as a BHFS guy.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

I know what you mean. I look forward to the long shots. But I have a number of hunting friends that have expressed an interest in shooting filed up to the point they find out about shots over 50 yards. Its not that they aren't interested in the longer shots, they just aren't set up for it.


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