# DAS dalaa or TradTech Titan??



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I'm sure you are going to hear things both ways, but if it were me, I'd choose the Titan, hands down.

First of all, the Titan utilizes the ILF connection which is infinately more convenient than the DAS connection in my opinion. The ILF connection will accept any ILF limb without any modification to the limb, either to the connection itself or to the limb butt. I know of certain limbs that require mods to the limb butt area in order to avoid "binding" with the end of the limb pocket. In some cases even the ones that came with the riser. This is important with some companies when it comes to warranty issues, should they arise. Even if it doesn't, I'm not to keen on go after a set of brand new limbs with a file in order to get them to fit properly. 

Second, the Titan allows for lateral limb adjustment and the Dalaa does not. You are likely to hear that LLA is not needed but I have seen numerous instances, both with the Dalaa riser, and others, (like my first Hoyt Excel) where the riser was out of whack and the string would not track in the string grooves. In each case that I saw, including my own, it was NOT and issue with the limbs, because the limbs were fine on other risers. 

Third is a personal preference thing, the Dalaa comes with a "hump" for shooting off the shelf. I do shoot off the shelf but I don't like the hump being there as I like to use a different setup that allows more tuning options. I have friends that shoot off an elevated rest and found that if they used Blazer vanes or other high profile fletching, contact with the "hump" was an issue. Other smaller things like the finger grooves that are milled into the front of the riser were annoying to me. Some people like them, I guess it all depends on how your prefer to grip your bow. 

There are a few others, but they happen to be more personal preference stuff that may or may not concern you.

There are literally dozens and dozens of risers utilizing the ILF connection. Wood risers, metal risers, hunting and target risers alike. To my knowledge, there is only one manufacturer that uses the DAS connection. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that might be.

At the end of the day, I would suggest that you try them both and see which one you like better. After all, that's all that really matters.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

KPC


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## Elite_Archer (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks a lot for that! You answered a lot of questions I had. I never realized that the dalaa had a hump on the rest or that the tradtech has LLA. I think I'm going to steer towards the tradtech. It looks like an awesome riser and I love the broadhead cutouts!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Both are too darned expensive, but beyond that I like the Titan also. For the reasons listed above and the options to weight the limb pockets to ballance to your own personal preference is a plus. You can buy an optional hump that bolts to the Titan riser if you prefer to shoot off the shelf also. I would love to try a Titan III but am having a hard time convincing myself that it is worth $430.


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## bigtone1411 (Nov 3, 2011)

Elite Archer, Take a look at the Sky Archery TDX 17" riser. I bought one last year and I love it. It is kind of a combo between the Trad Tech and the Dalaa. Just thought you should take a look at it before you made up your mind. It comes in black or Mathews Lost Camo. It is also an ILF attachment Riser.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Both are fine risers, and you've already gotten a lot of information on each, so I don't need to add to it. If I were in your position, I would (currently) order the 19" Titan with medium limbs. :^)


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

If you're in a hurry, the Titans are all on backorder at LAS, as of my perusal this afternoon. As a side note, the 21" DAS is available with ILF limb attachments, and combined with short limbs, would still be within the "hunting" length most people seem to like.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Even though the 21" Dalaa is available with the ILF connection, I'm pretty sure the shelf hump is still there and it still lacks lateral limb adjustment. Those two things seemed to be important to you.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I shot fatzboys DAS Dalaa a couple weekends ago and it was awesome..if you're into that kinda bow...i'm still romancing old school and figure if it's made right?..a trad bow shouldn't require all that much "adjustability"..way i figure?..anything that can be brought into proper adjustment can go out of proper adjustment..but i sure it makes it easier on the manufacturers being able to loosen up build tolerances...and i'll be honest here..i hate to see the Titan Frenzy that seems to be going on..would take a lot of the "interesting factor" out of things for me if every other trad archer was walking around with risers with broadheads silohettes machined in...like going to a gun show and the only thing there is AR's...and everybodys got one.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> but it sure it makes it easier on the manufacturers being able to loosen up build tolerances...


Huh??



KPC


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## Stykshooter (Aug 2, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> but i sure it makes it easier on the manufacturers being able to loosen up build tolerances....


Now, there is someone who obviously has zero experience with a Titan, or any other ILF bow.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I'd buy the Titan , every day of the week and twice on Sundays over the DAS ... 

Having said that both are fine risers but I just prefer true ILF fittings etc and IMHO , the fit and finish was just a tad better on the Titan 

Gerep covered it pretty well ......

JINX ... " Titan Frenzy " ? Really ...


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

You may find this informative:

http://www.bowreports.com/index.php...m/tradtech-titan-iii-19-2.html?category_id=90


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## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

Stykshooter said:


> Now, there is someone who obviously has zero experience with a Titan, or any other ILF bow.


I think he was talking as someone with experience with build tolerances not with the bow in question.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Elite_Archer said:


> shorter limbs be faster and the longer ones smoother?


Can but how much is the question. I haven't seen a huge difference in speed but longer limbs have been a little smoother for me.



Elite_Archer said:


> DAS dalaa or TradTech Titan??


I'd would have bought a das but the payment method ruled that out for me. A camo 17" with das limbs would be an awesome bow. I would have purchased a Titan but couldn't get one without the broadhead cut-outs.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Titan III without a doubt...


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## thumper-tx (Dec 19, 2006)

I like the attachment system better on the DALLA . Before you buy, take a hands on look at both attachment systems, then you will be able to make an informed decision. You can still use any ILF limb by switching out the limb bushing which take a couple minutes.


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## jim preece (May 19, 2006)

I've had both and about every other metal ilf type riser out there.I have two titans with matching medium winex limbs.I draw 29"s and they are smooth enough.I really like the titan alot.It's got the best recurve geometry of any riser i've tried.I use the KPC furniture pad shelf on mine and get good arrow flight.The only advantage i could see in the dalla was it had a tad bit more preload adjustment.But if you buy limbs in the weight range you need.And dont have a super long draw.That little bit of adjustment really dosent matter much.I'd hate to disagree with Mr Casto.But i think you would be fine with the 17" titan and long or medium limbs.


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## Elite_Archer (Dec 16, 2009)

thumper-tx said:


> I like the attachment system better on the DALLA . Before you buy, take a hands on look at both attachment systems, then you will be able to make an informed decision. You can still use any ILF limb by switching out the limb bushing which take a couple minutes.


My only problem is I don't know how to get a hands on look at these bows. I live in Ontario Canada and I really don't know anyone who has one. One of the reasons I am steering towards a metal riser is the exchangeable grip option. I really like the tradtech pinnacle II and the Galaxy and i thought about a custom bob lee, but I'm scared I'll get it and not like the grip. 

So far the Titan seems to be the bow of choice. Now for the decision of the 17" or the 19". I would like to keep it to a 62-64" bow. Are there any advantages to a longer or shorter riser?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Tab Bender said:


> I think he was talking as someone with experience with build tolerances not with the bow in question.


Probably. But anyone with any experience with ILF bows, both metal and wood, would realize that the build tolerances are every bit as critical, if not more so, than any other TD.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Elite_Archer said:


> So far the Titan seems to be the bow of choice. Now for the decision of the 17" or the 19". I would like to keep it to a 62-64" bow. Are there any advantages to a longer or shorter riser?


That would be a tough one depending on what you primarily want to do with the bow. I've been shooting the 17" Titan with medium limbs for over 6 years now. I use it for everything, whether it be hunting from a treestand, hunting from a ground blind (pop-up), 3D, indoor paper, etc. Being primarily a hunter, I find it to be a happy medium between what would be most optimal for each one of those things, leaning *more* toward a hunting rig.

Having said all that, if I was in the market for a new one (which I may well end up being...lol) I think I might actually pick the 19". The one I shot in Kalamazoo this year was literally like butter. It was equipped with the same limbs I'm using now (BF Extremes) and it was absolutely dead in the hand, and it felt about 5 lbs lighter than marked. The extra couple inches would probably make for a better 3d/target rig without giving up much maneuverability as a hunting bow. 

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

gerep said:


> probably. But anyone with any experience with ilf bows, both metal and wood, would realize that the build tolerances are every bit as critical, if not more so, than any other td.
> 
> Kpc


:laugh:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> :laugh:


Ahh yes, ignorance is bliss.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Just as a couple observations?...while folks are all excited that the titan is being offered in a 19" configuration?...that's on backorder...the Dalaa is actually available in 21"...and can accept either the DAS limbs OR ilf limbs...where the ilf...cant.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Just as a couple observations?...while folks are all excited that the titan is being offered in a 19" configuration?...that's on backorder...the Dalaa is actually available in 21"...and can accept either the DAS limbs OR ilf limbs...where the ilf...cant.


First of all, there are no *"DAS limbs"* DAS limbs *ARE* ILF limbs with the hardware swapped out. It's not that an ILF riser *"can't"* accept "DAS limbs," it's a matter of not *needing* to make modifications to the original design. As stated before, some manufacturers will void their warranty if modifications are made to their limbs. This is a chance that some people are not willing to take, especially with high end limbs.

Second, the OP indicated that he might *want* the LLA and might *not want* the shelf "hump." This would make the 21" Dalaa a less than ideal choice for him.

Please JINKSTER, stick with what you know, and spend less of your energy trying to prove people wrong. Life will be a lot more enjoyable, and you'll have to fall on your sword a lot less often. 

KPC


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## Elite_Archer (Dec 16, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Just as a couple observations?...while folks are all excited that the titan is being offered in a 19" configuration?...that's on backorder...the Dalaa is actually available in 21"...and can accept either the DAS limbs OR ilf limbs...where the ilf...cant.


I was just checking that bow out. The thing is I already have bow with a 21" riser and I'm not 100% happy with it. The only reason being that I do not want a bow longer than 62" for hunting and I really don't like the feel of it with the short limbs. 

I'm starting to feel that the 19" riser would suit me the best as I could get mediums and have a 62" bow.


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## Chupacabras (Feb 10, 2006)

Here is a link for the Sky TDX 17" mentioned above. http://www.skyarchery.com/skyinstock_tdx17.htm For those that hate the broadhead cut outs on the Titan take a look at the spirit metal risers at 3 rivers. Talk about cheesy.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

That Sky is a nice looking riser, but $524.99 - that is steep.


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## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

Morrison has a sweeeet looking 19" Rosewood riser in stock now for $395, if you like that sort of thing.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Elite_Archer said:


> My only problem is I don't know how to get a hands on look at these bows. I live in Ontario Canada and I really don't know anyone who has one. One of the reasons I am steering towards a metal riser is the exchangeable grip option. I really like the tradtech pinnacle II and the Galaxy and i thought about a custom bob lee, but I'm scared I'll get it and not like the grip.
> 
> So far the Titan seems to be the bow of choice. Now for the decision of the 17" or the 19". I would like to keep it to a 62-64" bow. Are there any advantages to a longer or shorter riser?


Personally...I would get a 19" Hoyt Excel and limbs of your choice..With medium limbs will give you a 64" bow..with short limbs will give a 62" bow..and you have a lot of grip choices...My favorite was this one...it's the Ortho Grip from Hoyt..










Give John at Lancaster's a call...he can hook you up with what ever you need..



Mac


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

MAC 11700 said:


> Personally...I would get a 19" Hoyt Excel and limbs of your choice..With medium limbs will give you a 64" bow..with short limbs will give a 62" bow..and you have a lot of grip choices...My favorite was this one...it's the Ortho Grip from Hoyt..
> 
> Give John at Lancaster's a call...he can hook you up with what ever you need...


...except of course for a 19" Excel, they only come in 21" and 23". Nor do they have the lateral limb adjustment.

John is good, but he's not THAT good.

:wink:

KPC


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

details,, details, KPC....never let the facts get in the way of a good post!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

lol


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## Elite_Archer (Dec 16, 2009)

GEREP said:


> ...except of course for a 19" Excel, they only come in 21" and 23". Nor do they have the lateral limb adjustment.
> 
> John is good, but he's not THAT good.
> 
> ...


Awwww man. I got all excited thinking that i somehow missed this 19" Excel riser only for it to be shot down : (


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Tab Bender said:


> I think he was talking as someone with experience with build tolerances not with the bow in question.


Yep...Bingo! 



GEREP said:


> Probably. But anyone with any experience with ILF bows, both metal and wood, would realize that the build tolerances are every bit as critical, if not more so, than any other TD.
> 
> KPC


Kev..i posted that :laugh: from my droid at work after reading your above statement...namely?...because in my world?...that statement is laughable...but i have the advantage of a rather extensive (if not exotic) work career as a lifelong machinst/fabricator and cnc programmer and have done much military/nasa work including R&D'in the first vectoring STOL nozzels for the F15 strike eagle, and SSME (space shuttle main engine) turbopumps, RL-10 Rocket engines and have been included in many design meetings with project engineers being introduced as the "If you can draw it?..he can make it!"..guy.

That said?..at a glance?...i don't hafta own an ilf riser to clearly see what ILF risers are about..to me?...they are a simple adjustable fixture whereby the end user can fine tune and tweak less than perfect components (as in my world there is no such thing as "perfect" anythings) into flawless funtion..and in many respects?..they are a great idea!...if the end user knows what they're doing and have the wherewithall to make the most of those adjustments..and what i'm simply saying is..

The folks at DAS don't allow themselves that luxury...they're limbs and slots MUST be straight and thet're holes must be spot-on as there is no LLA tweaking and wrenching...you simply slide in the limbs, tighten the thumb screws and everything lines up and it works..and it works great..and my machinst minds eye truely admired the though that went into the design of their 21" riser whereby they weighted the lower end and while admittedly it makes for a rather weighty bow?..that sucker is as dead balanced as it is in the hand at the shot..and then my machinst minds eye looks at the 19" titan where they REMOVED/MACHINED away material/weight in the limb pockets so now they can sell you weights to replace the material they removed?..and that's being advertised as a plus? :laugh: i guess. 

Anyways Kev...it seems you've been a little hard on the Beave here! :laugh: ...so i took the liberty of having one of my coworkers snap a coupe pix while i was at work today just for "validation"..as just because a guy owns a cadillac doen't necessarily mean he knows more about it than the mechanic that made it but can't afford one..and you belittling me with that very broad statement above regarding "build tolerances" (and assy) or my lack of knowledge regarding such?..maybe these pix will help you veiw my opines in a slightly different light! 

just one of the two 3D CNC milling centers i run one-off R&D aerospace test parts and fixtures on each day...










and a rather elaborate combustor case i've been working on..and pic rendered blurred on purpose..










I also have some limb blanks and cams that were supplied to me gratis from a major manufacturer as a pet project i was working on..a new compound riser design that would eliminate cam lean..but i actually like prime centroids design better so i abandoned it.

But i do hafta agree with you on one count..



GEREP said:


> Ahh yes, ignorance is bliss.
> 
> KPC


But for you to question my opines regarding fitment tolerances and assy?..would be like me trying to give you financial advice! :laugh:

now..did i throw myself on any swords or?..did you simply and accidentally walk into mine? :laugh:

Elite Archer: That "Hump" on the Dalaa 21 isn't as bad as you might think...cause from what i saw and experienced shooting the bow?..the shelf itself is so low to my hand that if that hump wasn't there?..fletchings would be slicing my thumb knuckle every shot...that riser is designed extremely well and that's coming from a class A all around machinist who shot one..but?..if ya just hafta have them broadhead cut-outs and you despise the hump for some reason the decision is definantly yours to make as it's your money being spent..and at this point?..i'd probably recomend you go ILF..(and the DAS riser can be had in that config as well but)..it seems owning, shooting or admiring anything other than ilf 'round these parts is a rough road to travel..Peace, Out, Bill. :cool2:


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Jinx,

I don't doubt your knowledge about machining but if a system like the DAS was so superior then I would assume all Olympic, FITA, and other world archery champions would discard the inferior ILF system and their ability to make adjustments on less than perfect systems. I have yet to see a DAS and it's limb system without lateral adjustment, etc on the podium at any archery competition. I don't shoot either system but am not naive enough to believe that if there was a superior system that the worlds best archers would be taking advantage of it. You might know machining but you obviously don't know much about bows , even though you were an accomplished compound shooter in the state of Florida. Lateral adjustment is another tool that archers an use to fine tune a bow.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

GEREP said:


> ...except of course for a 19" Excel, they only come in 21" and 23". Nor do they have the lateral limb adjustment.
> 
> John is good, but he's not THAT good.
> 
> ...


Your right...what was I thinking..so...to the OP...get a 21" Excel...still makes the lengths what I said..and it is a great bow for a great price..and it shoots great without the lateral adjustment screws..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Elite_Archer said:


> Awwww man. I got all excited thinking that i somehow missed this 19" Excel riser only for it to be shot down : (


Sorry Bro...that was my bad...but the set up I had was a really nice shooting/looking rig..You could do far worse than the combination I had..



Mac


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Not to press any further, but if Olympic and FITA shooters don't impress you, or seems insignificant, then check the equipment of the IBO Trad Worlds Recurve aided division. Scott Antczak, World Champion: Spigarelli Club Riser, ILF. Jimmy Blackmon: Spig Club Riser, ILF. Don't recall any bolt systems in the top of that class. At the first IBO Trad Worlds I attended as a vendor there were all ILF bows in that class. If that system is preferred by world class archers of all disciplines, why shouldn't the average hunter or 3d shooter benefit from it as well? If there was a better system they would be using it. I have no dog in the fight but wish people would have some basic knowledge before offering unfounded advice.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

fotoguy said:


> Jinx,
> 
> I don't doubt your knowledge about machining but if a system like the DAS was so superior then I would assume all Olympic, FITA, and other world archery champions would discard the inferior ILF system and their ability to make adjustments on less than perfect systems. I have yet to see a DAS and it's limb system without lateral adjustment, etc on the podium at any archery competition. I don't shoot either system but am not naive enough to believe that if there was a superior system that the worlds best archers would be taking advantage of it. You might know machining but you obviously don't know much about bows , even though you were an accomplished compound shooter in the state of Florida. Lateral adjustment is another tool that archers an use to fine tune a bow.


Lee...lighten up bro...I never mentioned the words inferior or superior ..you did...and thus far I've really only mentioned how impressed the I was with the DAS li


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

forgive me, it was not inferior...it was less than perfect:"That said?..at a glance?...i don't hafta own an ilf riser to clearly see what ILF risers are about..to me?...they are a simple adjustable fixture whereby the end user can fine tune and tweak less than perfect components". Whereas, the DAS....."The folks at DAS don't allow themselves that luxury...they're limbs and slots MUST be straight and thet're holes must be spot-on as there is no LLA tweaking and wrenching...you simply slide in the limbs, tighten the thumb screws and everything lines up and it works..and it works great.."...once again..if the ILF is less than perfect, and the DAS/bolt assembly was dead on..wouldn't the world's best archers, FITA, Olympic, IBO World Champions be flocking to that system? Seems like a logical assumption, but yet they all stay with the "less than perfect" , kinda makes me wonder who knows what they are talking about and who just like to throw out opinions without any basis of fact..I am lightened up....and I'm not your 'bro!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't want to step in between to perfectly happy parties slinging poop, but I have to say that aside from the kindergarten play time, Jinkster has some good points, particularly if you consider that these bows seem to be designed for entirely different applications. I can't vouch for either, but it would seem like having the riser weighted to work better without a stabilizer, and having less adjustments to screw up would be a very good thing for somebody looking to crawl around in the woods, and doesn't want to spend a lot of time worrying about optimal tuning, let alone spend the time learning how to achieve it. A fully equipped olympic rig is ideal for competing in the olympics (though from a simple accuracy standpoint, my freestyle compound rig is far superior, as is my remington .223 on a pile of sandbags) but I can't imagine that you'd want to go hunting with one. maybe some people do? Having the ability to tweak things can be very nice, but every complexity adds a point of potential failure, be it the equipment, or the user. I don't have an opinion on either bow, but I just mean to say that Jinkster's opinions and observations aren't without merit. The benefits he's talking about may not address the 'ultimate accuracy' end goal that is paramount to target shooting, but neither is that the only priority for a lot of us, and that doesn't mean that our other priorities are wrong. ILF system is a really cool means of standardization, but there is room under this Trad label for things besides the olympics.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Heck, not long ago we had to go through the whole debate on ILF being nothing more than another mounting system, "that's it", now, it seems, my side of the debate is getting a little more traction . I guess debates are helpful in the end.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Heck, not long ago we had to go through the whole debate on ILF being nothing more than another mounting system, "that's it", now, it seems, my side of the debate is getting a little more traction . I guess debates are helpful in the end.


LOL!..AMEN TO DEBATE!...and just to toss another wrench in the works?...I'd like to try hoyts paralever arrangement as well!


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Touché, Sanford. I once again am humbled by your vast knowledge and experience, whatever that may be! Was never really clarified. The original post asked about both bows, opinions were given, and he must decide. I do know hunters who also hunt with ILF bows, and have quite a lot of success. I will remove myself from the thread and go shoot my Osage/bamboo longbow and let the kids continue the diatribe. This site has what appears to be Jinkster's personal forum on everything archery whether he has working knowledge of it or not. My advice is to try to shoot both and decide. Both Obviously work well for people, potato-potah-to!


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Mmmmmm ... I should just let this go ...but ....,

To the original topic I'd again suggest that if possible shoot both , short of that ask the opinion of people who have actally shot both ... there are a few of us around .....

I'd personally , as previously stated prefer the Titan , and being a long fulcrum kinda fella , I prefer longer bows over shorter bows so the 19" is an added incentive for me ......

But I certainly would shy away from the advice of people who seem to have an agenda and use these forums as their own personal sounding board for all and sundry ... particularly when they post on topics they don't really know much about ....... 

But again, both are fine bows ......


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

That's all fine and dandy JINKSTER but you seem to have missed what I said, or just chose to ignore it.

Let me try one more time.

*"Probably. But anyone with any experience with ILF bows, both metal and wood, would realize that the build tolerances are every bit as critical, if not more so, than any other TD."*

I'll stand by that statement. Do you disagree? 

I never said one was better. I never said you didn't know machining. I said anyone with any experience with ILF bows would realize that the build tolerances are the same. Either things line up when assembled or they don't. The reason I said "if not more so" was simple. A lot of "finessing" can be done during the tillering process of a laminated bolt and pin takedown, in order to correct a variety of ills. This isn't really possible with with a riser and limbs that may come from different manufacturers. That's why I feel LLA is so important. I have never needed it on my Titan with any set of limbs I've ever put on it. I needed it and did not have it with my first Excel. A LOT of the first Excels that came down the pike were torqued. That's a fact. I have seen Dalaa risers that were not right, that's a fact. Without LLA, there is no way of correcting it. A lot of what gets pawned off as a "twisted limb" is not the limb at all, it's the riser.

Now, we've derailed the OP's thread enough. If you want to spend your time proving your CNC cred, that's fine but I'll stand by the adivice I gave the OP.

KPC


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## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

But if you get a 17"or 19" riser that is not right enough to cause the limbs to not track [or whatever the term is] do you want to have to tweek it back right yourself or send it back and get one that is right. Not talking oly here I'm talking average Joe's hunting bow and not nocking anyone or their bows, just asking.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> ILF system is a really cool means of standardization, but there is room under this Trad label for things besides the olympics.


True, and if you are under the impression that ILF is only for the Olympics, you simply have not been paying attention to "traditional archery" for the better part of the last decade.

KPC


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> True, and if you are under the impression that ILF is only for the Olympics, you simply have not been paying attention to "traditional archery" for the better part of the last decade.
> 
> KPC


Point taken, and I didn't mean to imply that, sorry if it seemed so. But, then again, I don't pay attention to lots of things.


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## Festivus (Oct 9, 2009)

Bernardini Mamba


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

You know JINKSTER, I went back an re-read your post and there was a couple things that I think need to be addressed.


*"The folks at DAS don't allow themselves that luxury...they're limbs and slots MUST be straight and thet're holes must be spot-on as there is no LLA tweaking and wrenching...you simply slide in the limbs, tighten the thumb screws and everything lines up and it works..and it works great..and my machinst minds eye truely admired the though that went into the design of their 21" riser whereby they weighted the lower end and while admittedly it makes for a rather weighty bow?..that sucker is as dead balanced as it is in the hand at the shot..and then my machinst minds eye looks at the 19" titan where they REMOVED/MACHINED away material/weight in the limb pockets so now they can sell you weights to replace the material they removed?..and that's being advertised as a plus? i guess."* 


Ok, so what happens when they aren't straight and everything doesn't line up? Notice I didn't say *"IF,"* I said *"WHEN."* It happens. It happens with DAS, it happens with Hoyt, it happens with TradTech, it happens with every riser known to man. Do you send them back just to be told that it's your limbs, not the riser? I realize that I'm not an "exotic" machinist, but in cases like that, I think I might want the LLA option. 

What happens when the riser is indeed perfect, but one of your limbs has a slight issue? Do you want the ability to bring it into line? I know I do. What happens when the ILF limbs that you bought because you were told that all you had to do was swap out the bushing won't fit because the limb butt binds at the back of the limb pocket? Do you send your riser back, just to be told to grind your limb butts down until you can fit a credit card between the butt and the pocket? How does the limb manufacturer feel about that? 

How good is a design where the tolerances are SO tight, that they won't work with all the limbs that they are designed to work with? When you design a universal riser, a good design will have "universality" designed into it. 

Ultra tight tolerances are NOT a good idea when you don't have control over all the components that are going to be used with it.

How good is a design that takes the weight *option* off the table. Not everyone want's a heavier mass weight riser. Not everyone wants the weight in the same amount and the same location. What about the guy that wants his bow to be one configuration for one disciline and another configuration for another discipline. In my archer's *"minds eye,"* the *best* designs are the ones that allow me the options to do a number of things with the same riser. Interestingly enough, that also appeals to my financial *"minds eye."*

Now again, I'm not an *"exotic"* machinist but I do have a little common sense and a little real world experience with the actual bows in question, which ironically seems to be a little *"exotic"* these days.

KPC


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Good post GEREP with some valid points.

I've shot the DALAA it was very good, I was told the limbs are made by SKY and these are superb limbs, I've not shot the Titan but imagine it will be a best seller, looks good and has great customer service to back up the product. 

I recently got a Bernardini Nilo and I have to say it's very well built and a lot of thought put into designing that Riser, I say this because somebody mentioned a 19" Bernardini Mamber, I would put that riser on your short list also. :thumbs_up

http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/002343.5.8136863183463991221

The Bernardini 21" Cobra is VERY COOL an ILF riser covered in snakeskin.:thumbs_up

http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/002343.5.6938090690263991221


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Heck ya, try them both (says the salesman) - with decent limbs on each you should be able to do it for right around $1500 - then when you decide which you like better you can sell off the other one at a loss and only be into the one you like for a $1000...........I'm sure they are both nice, but having a chance to try these two bows in one spot without purchasing has got to be very slim.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

centershot said:


> I'm sure they are both nice, but having a chance to try these two bows in one spot without purchasing has got to be very slim.


Only about as slim as attending any one of the 5 or 6 major traditional shoots that happen every year, not to mention the Kalamazoo Expo and any other large show. 

Heck, all you would have to do is show up at my league on any given day and you could try them both, with any one of about a half dozen different limbs.

:wink:

KPC


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

centershot said:


> Heck ya, try them both (says the salesman) - with decent limbs on each you should be able to do it for right around $1500 - then when you decide which you like better you can sell off the other one at a loss and only be into the one you like for a $1000...........I'm sure they are both nice, but having a chance to try these two bows in one spot without purchasing has got to be very slim.



I know LAS, when I worked there, had a try and buy option...you paid for it, tried it, and if you didn't like it..sent it back,,,,all you lost was shipping costs....not sure if 3 Rivers has the same deal.....

There are so many "trad" shoots around the country...that there is a good chance that both types of bows would be represented there...and a chance to shoot either would be common....like KPC said....Kalamazoo, Denton Hill, IBO Worlds, and other shoots would provide the opportunity....the try and buy is a good option as well......


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Not meant to offend - I just got a little of buy a Ford and a Chevy, then figure out which one you want from it. - FWIW I'm on the West side of the Rockies - All the IBO, ASA etc don't exist around here. So to try, I have to buy. The try and buy option would be great, I'll have to check into that because I would really like to get my hands on a Titan III.


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## Elite_Archer (Dec 16, 2009)

centershot said:


> Not meant to offend - I just got a little of buy a Ford and a Chevy, then figure out which one you want from it. - FWIW I'm on the West side of the Rockies - All the IBO, ASA etc don't exist around here. So to try, I have to buy. The try and buy option would be great, I'll have to check into that because I would really like to get my hands on a Titan III.


Im in the same situation. I can't afford to buy both, that's why I asked the question on here. I trust you guys and I understand that everyone had their own opinion and preferences, especially in archery, but I believe that I have been able to get a pretty goo feel of what to expect from both bows thanks to all of the info and opinions that have been presented. So for that, thank you.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Everything is a trade off. More speed usually equals more noise and less forgiveness. So short limbs will be a bit faster, but stack quicker and be slightly less forgiving. I have a morrison 15" riser that is ILF and it is easy to tune and can use any ILF limb, but the trade off is the metal riser does make more noise. Im 6'3" and have a 29" draw and can shoot a 60" bow without too much problem but a longer bow is a tad more comfortable. The DAS is wood isnt it? I personally like the wood ILF combo as wood soaks up the vibrations better than metal. If noise is not an issue, that Titan looks like a winner. Just to add, the metal risers are not that noisy but my wood bows are noticeably quieter.

I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Last I heard the DAS was metal as well!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

i want to thank you all for talking me out of a DAS Dalaa..some very compelling arguements in this debate...and?..

i'm dig'in those bernardini mamba/cobra risers...sweet!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> i want to thank you all for talking me out of a DAS Dalaa..some very compelling arguements in this debate...and?..
> 
> i'm dig'in those bernardini mamba/cobra risers...sweet!



Those are *"glamour bows"* you know. You better stick with *"Mr. Lee."*

Oh, and just out of curiosity, did you just fall on your sword again or *"did you simply and accidentally walk into mine?"*



KPC


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I'd swear you guys are best buds offline, or something...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Those are *"glamour bows"* you know. You better stick with *"Mr. Lee."*


hey now...don't be talk'in no pooh 'bout Mr. Lee!...just got back in from shooting him as matter of fact and was gigglin to myself at how sweet it shoots with those cobbled together used signiture limbs on my old hunter riser..all hard bolted together..and shoots great! :laugh:



GEREP said:


> Oh, and just out of curiosity, did you just fall on your sword again or *"did you simply and accidentally walk into mine?"*
> 
> 
> 
> KPC


I dunno Kev...like i say..i'm a machinist..and the last thing i wanna do with my trad bows when i get home from work is break out a set of allen wrenchs to tune or tweak anything...i spend all day at work doing that...oh i know they're supposed to be "set-it & forget-it" but..repeated high freq vibes?..as a mchinist?..i have always trouble with that "forget-it" part...but i can also see where other folks who aren't exposed to that sort of folley all day long for a living..dig it..and think it's cool...where'd i be at full draw wondering if i used enough loc-tite! :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> the last thing i wanna do with my trad bows when i get home from work is break out a set of allen wrenchs to tune or tweak anything. i know they're supposed to be "set-it & forget-it" but..repeated high freq vibes?..as a mchinist?..i have always trouble with that "forget-it" part...but i can also see where other folks who aren't exposed to that sort of folley all day long for a living..dig it..and think it's cool...where'd i be at full draw wondering if i used enough loc-tite!


Even though I don't have your job, Jinks...I feel the same way, which is why I fell in love with my DAS even more so...after the limb bolt system was switched to what it is now.

When I was test driving the DAS before it went into production...I just didn't like the ILF system that much when I originally shot it.

This is and was just my perception at the time....I just didn't feel as confident with a limb mounting system like that based on my personality and goals.

Both are obviously great bows because they are so similar...yet IMO...it's no different than someone who likes Prego over Rago :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Even though I don't have your job, Jinks...I feel the same way, which is why I fell in love with my DAS even more so...after the limb bolt system was switched to what it is now.
> 
> When I was test driving the DAS before it went into production...I just didn't like the ILF system that much when I originally shot it.
> 
> ...


First off?..be happy you don't have my job Ray..i've told my wife for years that i hafta know about as much as your average neurosurgeon to make a notch above pizza boy wages the past couple decades...and the stress is unreal...watched one of my bud/coworkers a few weeks ago scrap out a $187,000 ti part..puched in a bad number...touched his tool off in the wrong place..on a thursday afternoon..right before the 3 day Good Friday/Easter weekend...soon as he realized what he did?..it was too late..R&D "Flight Part"...he shut down his machine...locked up his box and told the guy next to him to tell the boss he'd be back monday morning to pick up his tools and left...he's still there..boss man cut him a huge break..gave'im a week off to chill and think about it and it was a mutual thing...cause when something like that happens?..your hand is shaking so bad the next time ya go to press a button it's rediculous..especially these days...and i've been doing this crap for close to 30 years now..i pray to God every morning asking he watch out for me..and there's been days/times i've just walked into the boss/owners office and tell'im.."I NEED to get out of here!"..and he understands..if i get a bad gut feeling?...or my head ain't in the right place?..and i get ta feeling nausius just thinking about running a program?..i stop...think..and if i ain't good with it?..it ain't happening..better to call a tme out than scrap a part that could be priced in the millions..and stress blows.

which is why i love to relax in my backyard after work with my stick bows...and shoot instinctively...no buttons...no wrenchs...no lining anything up...just look at it...relax...and shoot. 

But i can get a bad case of "the wants" just as quick as anybody...and i shot fatzboys 41# 64"/21" riser DAS Dalaa w/ CF/Foam limbs and.....dang was that one smooooth shoot'in bow...real sweet..but he loves my Bob Lee and my Longbow as well and can shoot heck out of any of'em..but the one big thing i've come to accept playing this game is..you can't buy skill..and a new bow doesn't even come close to meaning...a more accurate archer...and i love realizing that too! 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> First off?..be happy you don't have my job Ray. i pray to God every morning asking he watch out for me..and there's been days/times i've just walked into the boss/owners office and tell'im.."I NEED to get out of here!"..and he understands..


Holy crap...you're right. That sounds like some serious stress. I don't have to deal with much stress with my job helping people get fit or develop the strength, speed and flexibility for a specific sport.



JINKSTER said:


> which is why i love to relax in my backyard after work with my stick bows...and shoot instinctively...no buttons...no wrenchs...no lining anything up...just look at it...relax...and shoot.


I TOTALLY understand!

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Excel gets my vote as value for money. Dalaa is over rated and over priced. The original DAS bows that were knocked off by a certain company were really good risers, the Dalaa does not live up to their standard.
Still dont like the arrow head cut outs on the Titan so I would end up with a Morrison or Hoyt I think.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Ahhh, maybe I was thinking of the other trad techs. They make some wood ones. I like those better, but I stole my morrison so I cant complain.

I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


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## raygunner (Nov 2, 2007)

One thing that irritates me about both the Titan III & Dalaa is that they didn't bother to install a stainless steel bushing for the stab hole, even the cheap Samicks & W&W has one!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> oh i know they're supposed to be "set-it & forget-it" but..repeated high freq vibes?..as a mchinist?..i have always trouble with that "forget-it" part...but i can also see where other folks who aren't exposed to that sort of folley all day long for a living..dig it..and think it's cool...where'd i be at full draw wondering if i used enough loc-tite! :laugh:


"Folly?" You're right JINKSTER. After about 7 years and multiple tens of thousands of shots, I think I might have had to tighten the grip screw once, and it was VERY traumatic. Between that and making sure my field tips are tight, it's a wonder I haven't had a nervous breakdown.

:scared:

KPC


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL GEREP - if you only would have bought a Pinnacle riser - you would have avoided all that stress associated with tightening that grip screw - and a little nail polish on the threads of your field points will stop the agony of tightening those field tips.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

:wink:


sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL GEREP - if you only would have bought a Pinnacle riser - you would have avoided all that stress associated with tightening that grip screw - and a little nail polish on the threads of your field points will stop the agony of tightening those field tips.


Oh, I know. I live in fear every day that it might happen again sometime in the next 7 years and 40 some thousand shots. 

As a result, I actually think I might be developing a terrible case of *HBP.* 

(*H*ex *B*olt *P*anic)

:set1_rolf2:

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't know if TT has changed the limb bolt config, but on the Pinnacle, you better keep an Allen wrench handy. On mine, twice over a couple of years, I've pulled it out of the case to find the limb bolts completely loose and not knowing how long they had been that way - either from differential expansion or outright permanent expansion of the wood.


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