# Sharing your knowledge...not your attitude.



## Kungur (May 3, 2009)

Thank-you for your post. There are times I hesitate,as a new archer, to ask a question because of what might be said. It has happened on another,unrelated forum, and I no longer ask questions there.


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Thanks SA,
After gazing over the corpse of Saggitarius, I am saddened by the loss.
Quite a few folks are now posting here, but this site is not immune to death by a thousand snips.
Listen, consider, then respectfully respond, or just listen. This is too valuable a resource to squander.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SA -

Welcome to the Internet. On the positive side, like TV we always have the choice to by-pass certain threads or worst case usie the "Ignore List" function. 

It does seem that the Internet can and does bring out the best in some and the worst in others. Happily, compared for a few other forums, the FITA forum is a little cleaner and *most* of the regulars a little classier than to get involved with too much non-sense. 

Kinda have to deal with it, I guess.

Viper1 out.


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## skybolt (Apr 29, 2008)

ScarletArrows said:


> Pardon my language---> BUT what the  is up with all the bickering on here lately. It seems to me that thread after thread is becoming hijacked by a few individuals whom want to do nothing but argue. Its making this board turn into a common school ground...and to be honest its really kinda sad.
> 
> I mean seriously folks its archery...take a chill pill and have some fun...if you argue with everyone on here all the time what the hell are you accomplishing? I'll tell you---->your proving to the board how much of an ass you are, NOT how knowledgeable you are. Your proving your maturity.
> 
> Its easy to have an argument, its harder to have a discussion. I know this. But if your not contributing knowledge, if your not asking questions, then what are you really here for?


Very well put. When people start out "hey, this might be a stupid question but.............", I tell them the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Obviously, if you ask a question, you don't know the answer and are not looking to be ridiculed for it.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Speaking for myself only, I used to look forward to all the insights I could find on this board. There is still lots of good information on here, but it really has gotten chippy here lately. That's too bad. And after just being part of a chippy thread, I apologize for my being a part of it. We really have better things to do with our time. I know I do. 

I'll check back on the site from time to time, but I need a break.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Irritable male syndrome*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_male_syndrome


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

@sandsquid


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

SandSquid said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_male_syndrome


Good One!!! Maybe they should double up on the Andro Gel??? Get their T-Zone back up.:wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I've noticed that those who have an identifiable handle tend to be a bit more courteous.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, 

Funny, but I notice the same thing...

It's called accountability. 



> but this site is not immune to death by a thousand snips.


No site is. 

I've watched several archery sites over the past 10 years go through their life cycle. Sad, but it happens. Usually, the first step is to see all the experienced, valuable members be driven off by the jerks and wannabees. Then "middle age" sets in and often, mediocrity. Then finally, the site is finished off by the constant sniping by a few who don't really care about the overall community.

AT's fita forum has always been a place of respect and I've enjoyed visiting here because of that. 

We have a few "new" members here that clearly need to learn what that means, and I'll leave it at that. They know who they are.

John.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Jim C said:


> I've noticed that those who have an identifiable handle tend to be a bit more courteous.





limbwalker said:


> Funny, but I notice the same thing...
> 
> It's called accountability.


Gentlemen, I encourage the both of you to take a step back and examine how you've behaved here of late. Neither one of you have particularly been part of the solution, but more often than not, part of the problem.

I have the utmost respect for the information and opinions you have shared here on this board. You are both VERY passionate about what you do and the future of the sport that we all love here. However, being the caliber of competitors and coaches I believe you are, it saddens me that you seem to be unable to float above the negative comments and attitudes.

On a similar note, I take my hat off to Viper1 and Jake Kaminski. Both of these gentlemen (to the best of my knowledge, anyway) seem to simply ignore the comments that aren't adding to the progress of the thread and can continue on in spite of them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we just need to all learn to ignore the parts of threads that aren't adding to the conversations at hand. I know it's hard when some of those comments are shot directly at you, but you don't serve any kind of purpose by acknowledging them. 

I hope all of us sleeps well tonight and I look forward to meeting some of you here in a couple of weeks down here in Aggieland!

Thanks,
Kevin
aka Mulcade


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm not a FITA/Oly. shooter, but I come to this forum because the equipment is very similar, or the basics are the same as my intended Archery pursuits...The Info that I glean here is invaluable, and I've learned so much, from so many, that I wont even start naming names, just want to say "THANK" to anyone and everyone that has helped me out....I also want to add, that if anyone think that this board is getting out of hand with bickering, and harmful debate, take a look at the Trad Archery forum....YIKES!!!!...I've been a Member of A.T. for a while, and yesterday, I used the "Ignore List" feature for a certain member on the Trad forum.....First time I've ever used this feature....Sad!.....I will add that this is the best Forum on this website, PERIOD!......Take care!.......Jim


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Neither one of you have particularly been part of the solution, but more often than not, part of the problem.


Kevin, while I often admire the ability of folks like Viper to simply ignore the obtuse behavior of others, I think that statement is rather unfair. 

"more often than not" ? Really?

Sorry, but I disagree.

Of my 3,000+ posts here, I would wager that fully 3/4 or more are made in an effort to help others. Frankly, I take offense at the notion that "more often than not" Jim or I are part of the problem. That is just not accurate. Jim has gone FAR out of his way to help others 1000's of times over the past 5 or 6 years. He could easily write several books just from the helpful posts he has typed here in that time.

I prefer to be direct and honest. I don't hide behind generalizations. If someone is being a bully or a jerk, often I'll choose to say what many others are thinking. I'm a big boy and I can take the heat if things get heated. Standing on the sidelines and hoping a problem will just "go away" often has the opposite affect.

John.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

John, thank you for replying and for the manner in which you did. Also, I will admit that you are correct in that my ‘more often than not’ statement was offensive toward yourself and Jim. Please do understand that I do believe you have been adding fuel to the fire in some of the more fiery threads we’ve had in the recent past. I personally don’t see the benefit to that, but we may have to agree to disagree on that. I certainly wouldn’t suggest you ignore a problem, but trading jabs, or merely even continuing in a one-sided conversation, isn’t in anyone’s best interests. You show great self-assurance and wisdom when you walk away when there is no longer anything to be gained from staying.

As I said previously, I certainly respect the efforts and information you’ve (and Jim as well) made up to this point. I truly believe this section of AT is made better by the camaraderie we share as fellow competitors, coaches, and just interested bystanders. The two of you have been a large part of the success we share here and I hope you will continue to do so. I implore each of us to remember we should be setting examples of how we expect our fellow archers, students, and teachers to act as we deal with each other.

Let me finish by apologizing to Jim and John for my offensive comments. I often don’t post to threads that get fiery because my own passion often does get the better of me. 

-Kevin


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## SCBOWHUNTER903 (Jan 28, 2010)

X2 for that


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

There is a fine line between waging war upon stupidity and becoming one of the dumbasses yourself...now by no means do I intend to say that I feel John or JimC are a part of the problem...if anything I feel they are more of the solution. 

for lack of a better way of putting it I will say it like this:

Let those guys with the clout and the knowledge hold the line.

The rest of us just need to make sure that those individuals whom frequent us with their vast experiance and knowledge are appreciated to no end. The rest of us need not get wrapped up in the fight...less it contributes to the gains of the whole...Those guys whom have been round the block will show you who knows what they are talking about and show you whom is here for nothing more than to **** in the soup.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

SandSquid said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_male_syndrome


Wow, this makes my day because lately I've been often wondering, "Why does it seem that men around age 50 are so angry and belligerent all the time." Turns out it's just nature.:teeth:




ScarletArrows said:


> There is a fine line between waging war upon stupidity and becoming one of the dumbasses yourself.


In one sentence, you have told the story of my life.:77:


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## wildjim (Jan 27, 2010)

There must be a statistic somewhere that proves antagonists prefer internet forums?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

wildjim said:


> There must be a statistic somewhere that proves antagonists prefer internet forums?


It's easier to have multiple personalities that way. :wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Kevin, apology accepted.



> Please do understand that I do believe you have been adding fuel to the fire in some of the more fiery threads we’ve had in the recent past. I personally don’t see the benefit to that, but we may have to agree to disagree on that. I certainly wouldn’t suggest you ignore a problem, but trading jabs, or merely even continuing in a one-sided conversation, isn’t in anyone’s best interests. You show great self-assurance and wisdom when you walk away when there is no longer anything to be gained from staying.


Well put, but hey, I'm human too. And I reserve the right to get annoyed just like anyone else. 

I've written a few things here that I'm not real proud of, but only a few. Most of the time - heck, all of the time - you're getting my point of view completely unfiltered. And while I'll be the first to admit I don't know it all, I have managed to acquire a pretty unique perspective on all this in the past 6 or 7 years. One that I think many can benefit from and are interested in - or so I'm told...

I'm about due for a break from all this anyway though. It's golf season now and my thoughts are more on shooting par this time of year than shooting arrows... And my golf buddies are not the type that are easily offended ! ha, ha. 
John.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

The question that we must ask ourselves BEFORE we post is this post being helpful or constructive. If it is not then keep your fingers to yourselves.

The idea of this forum is to help others, share information and build community. The mods have tried not to be to heavy handed. Lord knows there have been quite a few times I have been tempted to press the BANNED button, but have not.

We are not children (at least most of us) and we should behave accordingly. We have prided ourselves in not being like the GenPop of BH's here.

The problem usually begins when we attempt to push our opinion on others and feel we have to defend it. Opinions have a place here on AT, but please be repsectful. Don't make me push the button. Thank you

T1


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

Frequently, the threads lose their focus when two posters who disagree compete on getting in the last word...which rarely accomplishes anything. That's a great time to go offline with private messages.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Kevin, while I often admire the ability of folks like Viper to simply ignore the obtuse behavior of others, I think that statement is rather unfair.
> 
> "more often than not" ? Really?
> 
> ...


Thanks John, I truly appreciate that. I try to call them like I see them and be as honest as I can. I was blessed to be able to spend several years learning all I could from Charlie and Mildred Pierson. They never asked for a dime or anything else from me for all they taught me. As a college kid, I used to spend a fair amount of time hanging out in Larrell Dick's Primitve Weapons Arena (the range where Doug Brothers and Maureen Becholdt (72 US Olympic Team) used to shoot and Larrell and his wife taught me alot as well. Larrell later ran the archery department at RELO's in Fairfield Ohio and he, Marvin Hundley, Bill First (Ashley Kamuf's Husband now) and Calvin Short all worked there are spent plenty of time showing me how to set up compound bows etc. And of Course Darrell Pace whom I have known for years as well as Al Kramer and the Late George Helwig and There are also people I met later in my archery career, Ann Hoyt, Ann Clark, Terry Wunderle and Don Rabska who have shared their knowledge with me--and there are many more as well.

I figure I owe all of them a great deal for what i have learned and since I really cannot pay them back for what they have given me, at least I can do my best to help others. 

And yes, I can be a bit abrasive, I don't have much use watching someone with no profile bashing people like John or Rick who really know what they are talking about. I am a trial attorney by trade and I get plenty of time to argue with people and get paid for it--I don't come here looking to do that for free:wink:


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

skybowman said:


> Frequently, the threads lose their focus when two posters who disagree compete on getting in the last word...which rarely accomplishes anything. That's a great time to go offline with private messages.


That's why it's VERY important to remember that when you're discussing a certain topic, stay focused because that's what you're supposed to be doing - discussing the topic, NOT each other. Not an easy task if you know the other party 'well' and can't resist getting personal. That's why having one's profile all filled out may not entirely be a good thing too.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

First I want to thank Tony and John for the sincere help they have given me in the past. Having said that, not all of the problem in this arena lies at the doorstep of newbies.

A couple of years ago, I was commenting on a spine/shaft/arrow length issue in relation to the current Easton spine charts versus older charts. I don't think this issue is as cut and dried as some may think. I also think the view I expressed is in fact shared by a few here who have strong profiles, unlike my own unimpressive profile since I am an avowed "back yard" shooter.

A couple of old timers (one does not post much any more, the other is a real regular) did their best to make me look stupid. One even questioned my integrity regarding my back yard scores. These two gents then engaged in a series of back and forth posts between themselves slamming others who held a view different from their own as being stupid, almost as if they had to pat themselves on the back for all the knowledge they held - knowledge they "HELD" but chose not to share in a meaningful and helpful manner.

Yes, my profile is pretty empty when compared to the gents I refer to, but I did not put them down. My sin was in expressing an opinion based on my limited experience and conversations with another here whom I hold in the highest regard and who has a pretty full profile.

I quit posting here, and when I need help, I contact Tony directly. I never expected my views to carry the same weight as most who post here, especially those with full profiles. I did however expect to be treated with the "archers helping archers" approach, not with ridicule and scorn. If I state an opinion based on personal experience, I would have expected a "teaching" moment rather than a put down. There are some here who genuinely try to help all of the time and then there are others who often tend to be abrasive without cause when perhaps they should try to teach.

I guess the bottom line is that respect is earned more by conduct rather than by credentials. I admire the sterling achievements of any person, but I give respect to people based on their behavior, not on their scores.


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## wildjim (Jan 27, 2010)

Its interesting that personalities can manifest in writing?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

wildjim said:


> Its interesting that personalities can manifest in writing?



and alcohol


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

wildjim said:


> Its interesting that personalities can manifest in writing?


Why not? :darkbeer:


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

ScarletArrows said:


> Pardon my language---> BUT what the  is up with all the bickering on here lately. It seems to me that thread after thread is becoming hijacked by a few individuals whom want to do nothing but argue. Its making this board turn into a common school ground...and to be honest its really kinda sad.
> 
> I mean seriously folks its archery...take a chill pill and have some fun...if you argue with everyone on here all the time what the hell are you accomplishing? I'll tell you---->your proving to the board how much of an ass you are, NOT how knowledgeable you are. Your proving your maturity.
> 
> Its easy to have an argument, its harder to have a discussion. I know this. But if your not contributing knowledge, if your not asking questions, then what are you really here for?



Well I certainly hope I have not been offensive in any way since the first of the year. One of my New Year resolutions was and is to no longer be a bull head, offensive, pompous know it all windbag. I now strive to begin reacting to things by the new platinum rule “Treat others as they want to be treated.” which as I understand has replaced the old golden rule. “Treat others as you would like to be treated.”

Prior to January 1, 2010. No comment.


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## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

You hit the nail on the head with this post. It seems if some one has an idea that's not written in a book some were, they're idiots. It's sad to see this forum has become the place to insult people and their beliefs if it doesn't conform to what others believe to be true. It sure makes you think before you ask a question or reply to some ones post.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Greg Bouras said:


> I now strive to begin reacting to things by the new platinum rule “Treat others as they want to be treated.” which as I understand has replaced the old golden rule. “Treat others as you would like to be treated.”


In a course I'm currently taking (PL-401) I just learned about the Silver Rule is most commonly understood to be "*Do not do to others as you would not have them do to you*" which I kind of dig...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

zydeco said:


> First I want to thank Tony and John for the sincere help they have given me in the past. Having said that, not all of the problem in this arena lies at the doorstep of newbies.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I was commenting on a spine/shaft/arrow length issue in relation to the current Easton spine charts versus older charts. I don't think this issue is as cut and dried as some may think. I also think the view I expressed is in fact shared by a few here who have strong profiles, unlike my own unimpressive profile since I am an avowed "back yard" shooter.
> 
> ...



This one?

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=589367


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> This one?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=589367


I took a look. It looks like a pretty informative thread with a diverse array of opinions about spine. What comes out of the thread is that nobody agrees on whether the Easton Charts are too weak, too stiff or just right :embara: So I guess the answer is that there is no one answer.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> I took a look. It looks like a pretty informative thread with a diverse array of opinions about spine. What comes out of the thread is that nobody agrees on whether the Easton Charts are too weak, too stiff or just right :embara: So I guess the answer is that there is no one answer.


exactly and this discussion goes on all the time in just about any serious archery club.

I didn't see much hostility but admittedly I was reading the thread while talking to someone on a phone and doing some other stuff


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Jim C said:


> This one?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=589367


Nope, not even close, The thread you cited was in fact a reasonable discussion. I knew that you would spend a lot of time to research this issue. I guess the shoe fits even if it pinches the foot. You are right on one aspect, it was you and Spangler. It was Spangler who questioned my integrity on my scores, and it was you and he that carried on about how many people just didn't understand all the knowledge that the two of you had. 

On another matter, you have responded to many question about the Sky Conquest with a great deal of disdain. I posted a lot of info about my displeasure with Matthews and how they handled the Sky Conquest marketing issue. I did find a great friend in Jon Gauthier of Brennan Industries, the Matthews company that actually manufactured the Sky Conquest for Matthews. Jon went out of his way to grasp control of a lot of decisions regarding the production and marketing of the Sky bow. Jon righted a wrong and because of his decency, I ended up with a Matthews Sky Conquest with carbon limbs free of charge. Go figure, I'm a nobody in this archery realm but Jon righted a wrong just because he believed in doing what is right. I posted all of this positive info in an effort to get others like you to take Jon at face value and give him a chance to right the wrongs that had been done. I think you posts on this issue speak volumes. I think you were miffed that Matthews did not take your advice on the grip design - an issue which you have spoke to on numerous occasions. Instead of giving credence to my experience with Jon Gauthier in his quest to make things right, you persisted in slams. Jon Gauthier would have done anything anyone asked to have made to Matthews Sky Conquest a success to the betterment of us all. Instead of trying the guy on for size, you persisted in slamming the product, and the rest is history. I asked all of you on more that one occasion to contact Jon and tell him what you thought. Jon has told me that you never once contacted him to give him a chance. Shame on all of us.

If your goal is to persist in proving yourself right on all occasions, keep on going. Your archery credentials far outweigh anything I have to offer, but once again, respect is earned through conduct not credentials.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I honestly don't even remember you. It took about 30 seconds to find the thread about arrow spine-one in which I didn't post. I see most of your posts were on religion. Spanger is a good guy. He knows alot about archery and his daughter and wife are well known recurve archers. You are whining about something years ago? LOL.

My position on the Matthews grip was shared with most of the people I spoke too who had been fans of the real sky. We never could understand why no effort was made to market that bow or why Matthews signed three top flight recurve archers to shoot a bow they never had any intention of selling. Strange strange strange.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Jim C said:


> I honestly don't even remember you. It took about 30 seconds to find the thread about arrow spine-one in which I didn't post. I see most of your posts were on religion. Spanger is a good guy. He knows alot about archery and his daughter and wife are well known recurve archers. You are whining about something years ago? LOL


First, I have never posted anything about religion on this forum. Yes I have posted a lot on religion on the Campfire which is why you have Warbow's support here because we have sparred on many occasions. I believe in the ONE TRUE GOD, and will never back away from that, but have never brought my faith into this forum.

Not whining at all, just calling a spade a spade. You are the one that stated that you are abrasive only to newbies with empty profiles that take you on. Well, I'm just stating that if you really are into "archers helping archers", you might want to look in the mirror. I'm not whining, I've found some really good archers with "full profiles" that I can call on any time and get respectful, helpful answers without any hint or condescending remarks. Unfortunately for AT, I get that help off line, because I don't have to open myself up to the public ridicule you and Spangler have engaged in. I have no doubt that Spangler is a good guy, and I have not doubt that you are as well. Maybe, just maybe I am a good guy too. Just because I don't have the "credentials" you have does not mean that I am not a good guy and that I don't deserve a little decency. I guess that is what the internet brings us.

Again. I'm not whining. I haven't posted for a long time simply because my life is too full of good things to put up with meaningless put downs. I applaud your accomplishments in archery. You have earned them. Others have also earned in areas that call for respect. If you had an open mind, you might understand that I could make you look like a fool in areas that I have excelled in.

I have not posted for a long time because of you and will not post here ever again. You win.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

real contentious I see

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=365261&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=336660&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=493608&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=471736&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=493989&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=869415&highlight=Matthews+Sky+Recurve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

zydeco said:


> First, I have never posted anything about religion on this forum. Yes I have posted a lot on religion on the Campfire which is why you have Warbow's support here because we have sparred on many occasions. I believe in the ONE TRUE GOD, and will never back away from that, but have never brought my faith into this forum.
> 
> Not whining at all, just calling a spade a spade. You are the one that stated that you are abrasive only to newbies with empty profiles that take you on. Well, I'm just stating that if you really are into "archers helping archers", you might want to look in the mirror. I'm not whining, I've found some really good archers with "full profiles" that I can call on any time and get respectful, helpful answers without any hint or condescending remarks. Unfortunately for AT, I get that help off line, because I don't have to open myself up to the public ridicule you and Spangler have engaged in. I have no doubt that Spangler is a good guy, and I have not doubt that you are as well. Maybe, just maybe I am a good guy too. Just because I don't have the "credentials" you have does not mean that I am not a good guy and that I don't deserve a little decency. I guess that is what the internet brings us.
> 
> ...


whatever, since you don't have 

1) the integrity to be honest about the thread you are talking about its probably good riddance

2) I post on sky recurves alot-probably more than anyone and I was honest about the matthews bow

3) if your rant was about arrow spine why not post it rather than play games

4) the only dispute about scores was someone claiming a trad guy shot 298-which in reality was a mistake

so go ahead, whine or post up


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Can't resist.... must ... reply....

Unfortunately, we're communicating with a written medium amongst people with lots of difference in experience levels of many subjects. 
These come out LONG LONG before archery is ever involved. 
The same situation happens in every public forum in the world where all participants don't actually KNOW and physically meet each other. 

Also, everyone has different expectations on how they should be treated. 

Predispositions also shape things. People who are expect to be treated well will inadvertently read into a neutral statement that they have been treated well. 
Others who expect to be served some judgemental attitude will be looking for traces of it and usually, they'll find something to confirm it, whether it is actually intended or not. 

And then there are the times when people post under the influence and I'm not talking alcohol or drugs. It can be just a bad day when their tolerance is low. Just getting a parking ticket for some people changes how they react and what they post. 

I have seen regular posters change personality online in two other forums. One had received information that he had terminal cancer, the other that his child had a terminal congenital disease. 
Both of them received significant credit from me in their online dealings when their mood and actions changed, for obvious reasons. 

But I knew about it and was able to roll with the bad days. 

Everyone has bad days, but there are the occasional personalities that express themselves in adverse ways online. 

I stay away from the rest of AT. There are people here who have vast amounts of experience in things other than archery. There are people who are given more cred than they deserve and people who are given less. 
There are people who should definitely put "I think" in front of a statement that is presented as fact. 
There are enough people here and well and truly enough experience to write a huge factual tome about archery that would become an incredible resource for the world. 

But there are too many opinions that aren't actually fact. And too much status that has to be kept as it's crept in as some kind of currency. 

Regardless of who you are on any internet forum, you will be judged by your contributions. Not by what equipment you own or what you can do with it, but by how you made people feel. 

And I am not implying that I'm an angel in any way, shape or form. You're entitled to ignore my opinion just as I'm entitled to ignore yours.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> whatever, since you don't have
> 
> 1) the integrity to be honest about the thread you are talking about its probably good riddance
> 
> ...


Arguments aren't just about things we initially post, they are about what we choose to respond back to, as you are doing here.

As someone who will often make a strong case, and often respond with reasoned rebuttals when I think my case is correct, and keep responding, I also recognize that that is a choice. So, nobody who choses to respond as you have, especially with taunt like "so go ahead, whine or post up," can claim to be fundamentally different anybody else when it comes to "Sharing your knowledge...not your attitude" because the choice to argue is a choice, regardless of whether you are right or not. You are choosing to argue, as am I at this point.

And, I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, but that this is where many arguments come from, multiple people thinking they are right arguing their case. And, you don't have to add unnecessary, argumentative rhetorical flourishes like "so go ahead, whine or post up" to make your case. Those are the kinds of thing that are un-necessary and ratchet up the argumentativeness of the debate, regardless of whether you think the other guy started it.

Some may say that for me to comment on this is like the pot calling the kettle black, perhaps. If so, then who is more qualified to comment on the pot than the kettle? Some here might think it ironic, but I'm sometimes known for being very calm, dispassionate immune to rising to bait in heated debates where many personal attacks are thrown at me. I've received unsolicited complements for it--really. Yet I'm not always so immune. At times it becomes tempting to throw in little barbs like "so go ahead, whine or post up" to make a point with someone who seems especially contentious, yet I also know that those rhetorical tricks do nothing to bolster the rational part of my argument, so I think I can speak on this issue with some knowledge and experience.

There are very few people in the forums who are completely immune to ratcheting up the rhetorical devices, and those that are don't always remain so. I have frequently been so at times. Those that aren't are too numerous to mention. But let's not pretend that arguments are the sole provence of those who's profiles aren't filled to the gills, they are not. And as Techdirt pointed out about article comments, the problem isn't anonymity, it is quality of posts. And here, that is in large part the result of active modding and grooming of the culture of the forum, not the status of people's profiles. This forum has been good, in large part, because of the active work of Target1 in keeping it so. And thread like this calling for civility also help. 

But, don't forget, that it is a choice to respond to people's posts when you disagree with them. You don't have to respond. If you don't then their post is all on them. If you choose to argue with someone and you don't like the result, half the blame goes on you for being half the argument. Don't feed the posts of people you don't like. Use the ignore feature if you have to. But take some personal responsibility as well.

I include this with all the self-referential irony that it includes:


----------



## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Jim C said:


> whatever, since you don't have
> 
> 1) the integrity to be honest about the thread you are talking about its probably good riddance
> 
> ...



There is an old saying in the South that "the caught pig squeals loudest". Oh well go figure.

You claim to be honest about the Matthews Sky Bow, but you constantly complained they didn't listen to your input about the grip. Sounded like a lot of wounded ego to me. Yeah you were honest, they didn't do what you wanted so their product was Delta Sierra. I made several strong pleas to get you to contact Jon Gauthier because I had personal experience with him and knew he would work his tail off to make things right. You were not willing to even make the call. Please tell all here that you made that effort. Well did you? I know the answer. You had your mind made up and did not want want to be confused with any facts.

I stated what I read in your posts and in Spangler's posts about the two of you treating others with a condescending attitude. I named no names I posted my comments in hopes some would look in the mirror and reflect on their projected attitudes. You state that Spangler is a good guy. OK, well so am I. Spent 28 years on active duty so you could have the freedom to spew what you do here. That makes me a bad guy?

I'm not going to to go back and research all past posts - frankly not worth my time. I commented on shooting 290 in my back yard and Spangler said "well if that is really true" or words to that effect. Take it or leave it, that is what he said. Following that you and he engaged in a series of comments on how many people failed to understand the issues of arrow length versus shaft length versus draw length. Youtwohad quite a back and forth about the stupidity of those that did not have the knowledge that you two had.

Contrast that with the approach of others who really believe in helping other archers regardless of credentials.

You have stated that you are abrasive only to those who question your credentials. Well, I never questioned your credentials. I applaud every honor you have achieved and never questioned a single one of those honors. Why do you sir, question mine. I have not posted here for a long time because of the arrogance you and Spanagler displayed. I chose to keep quiet about this for a long time and chose not to call you out until YOU made this a personal issue.

I said "good riddance" a long time ago, but did so with the grace not to call you out. I did not call you out this time, but you, sir made it a persona issue - not me.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Jim C said:


> whatever, since you don't have
> 
> 1) the integrity to be honest about the thread you are talking about its probably good riddance
> 
> ...


I never aimed this at you. I tried to keep the high ground and not call anyone out, so it is the caught pig that squeals loudest. 

You were not honest about the Matthews Sky Recurve because I gave you the name of an good man that went out of his way to make things right for me, and I told you so. You never had the decency to contact him as I asked you to yet you continued to slam the product.

The trad guy that shot 298 is a mystery to me . I commented on the scores that I was shooting any you buddy Spangler questioned my integrity. Then you two got into a back and forth about how stupid many of us were because we didn't know what the two of you know.

Whining, my rear end. After reading your arrogance and that of Spangler, I jiust left this site for good. As I have posted, there are those who are truly willing to help, and I have relied on them through personal contact because I realized you are not at all concerned withe helping others unless it fees your inflated ego.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Must...resist...clicking...on...reply...with...quote...

:zip:


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Must...resist...clicking...on...reply...with...quote...
> 
> :zip:


Well let it all hang out now. Never stopped you on the Campfire. Go for the gusto.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Arguments aren't just about things we initially post, they are about what we choose to respond back to, as you are doing here.
> 
> As someone who will often make a strong case, and often respond with reasoned rebuttals when I think my case is correct, and keep responding, I also recognize that that is a choice. So, nobody who choses to respond as you have, especially with taunt like "so go ahead, whine or post up," can claim to be fundamentally different anybody else when it comes to "Sharing your knowledge...not your attitude" because the choice to argue is a choice, regardless of whether you are right or not. You are choosing to argue, as am I at this point.
> 
> ...


Must you spend all of your time in the obtuse, or can you just get to the point for a change?


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Looks like this thread's going to go the way of the Profile one.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow, I'm impressed.


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

Back to the original post, it can be very hard to ignore someone when they attack you directly and the end result is you end up with spectators watching a fight over nothing, just like the school yard.

I try to refrain from hijacking threads but sometimes its like a avalanche, once it starts there is no way to stop it.


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

This is why I have stayed off of this forum for a long time and will return to that approach. There are those who are truly helpful to all. Viper 1 and Limbwallker are two great ones for helping the less experienced/less knowledgeable. There are others, but these two gents come to mind foremost. Then there are others others who seem more concerned with advancing their own resumes. That was the point I tried to make without calling anyone out, but egos apparently got in the way and those with guilt in their hearts felt compelled to challenge and defend, so I'm back to lurking for whatever I can glean from those that truly count. Also, those that truly count can be reached on a personal level and don't have a ego trip standing in their way.

The only point I was trying to make is that those who have greater talents/achievements may be better served by openly helping rather than engaging in put downs. There are those who stand out as being ing the former group and those who stand elsewhere. As in Snow White, the mirror sees all.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

But he said...but I said...but you said...but he said...but you said...but he said...but I didn't say...but you said...

Here is the mother of all suggestions for you folks whom can't seem to get the idea that people all across the forum are gettin sick of this nonsense...

Smash your keyboard.

just smash it...your accomplishing nothing...your not contributing...your not sharing infromation...your not asking questions...your school kids on a playground with nothing to do in your free time other than to prove whom is the bigger dumbass...be a damn adult. Let the petty bickering go.

YOUR RUINING THE FORUM.

I am closing this thread before T1 does cause at this point its not gaining anything for anyone...


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

after some time to think...and review the thread a bit better I have changed my mind about closing...there is some good stuff here I got lost in the BS...as well as my temper, all I saw was this silly bickering about honestly what boiled down to nonsense...I got irk'd that all I saw was EXACTLY the kind of thing that I started this post to hopefully help stop and in turn advocated destruction of your keyboard as a cure...in hindsight its nonsense itself...pissed off rantings-> no one is immune to it.

Warbow's comments are spot on...personal responsiblity is the key. And Whiz is right too...ignoring people is very much an option. I would hope that people use a combination of all these ideas being laid forth here. Honestly though that is not the ultimate problem with this bickering....even I overlooked those gems of wisdom because I got sidetracked into following a "school yard brawl." There is something to be said about how it detracts from the ability for individuals to convey and find good information here. And if its being detrimental to the users ability to find good and useful information here than what is it accomplishing? I think what it boils back to is Warbow's personal responsibility comments...

btw...For anyone whom smashed their keyboard this morning...your an idiot and you deserved a broken keyboard ;-)


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

*Thanks*

SA, Thanks for starting the thread. You were right on. Great example of how the best intentions can go a stray. It is tiresome.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

appreciated SCRIV.


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## CJSdrftFLAT (Dec 5, 2007)

an easy solution; act on here how you would with other archers at a competition. I'm pretty sure that people who do know me on AT will attest to the fact that I act the same on here as I do in person. I absolutely detest e-thugs. Just because you have some power on the internet and are anonymous, some people act like it gives them free reign to act like a (the proper word for a female dog).


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Nothing personal ScarletArrows but now that I've gone back and taken a second read at your initial post, I find that it set the stage for what later transpired because such situations give folks the chance to take sides with their real life / online buddies and hardly anyone is going to back down. I reckon it's should be up to the moderators to do what their titles suggest - moderate.

What say the rest?


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

*hey there zydeco....*

I'd really be interested in seeing the thread where I was acting as you said I was.

I think you may have me mixed up with someone else....

that is the only thing I can think anyhow.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

*don't make accusations if you can't back them up*

Zydeco...

I don't remember you, but you seem to remember my name less than fondly.

I did a search for all posts by you on this board since you started, and check which threads I have posted in.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=589367 is the only thread (and this one) where I have posted in a thread you have posted in.

Yet you have accused me of: 
* having an inflated ego and questioning your integrity

"The trad guy that shot 298 is a mystery to me . I commented on the scores that I was shooting any you buddy Spangler questioned my integrity. Then you two got into a back and forth about how stupid many of us were because we didn't know what the two of you know.

Whining, my rear end. After reading your arrogance and that of Spangler, I jiust left this site for good. As I have posted, there are those who are truly willing to help, and I have relied on them through personal contact because I realized you are not at all concerned withe helping others unless it fees your inflated ego." 

*using a condescending attitude

"I stated what I read in your posts and in Spangler's posts about the two of you treating others with a condescending attitude."

*engaging in public ridicule

"because I don't have to open myself up to the public ridicule you and Spangler have engaged in."

* and more

"I'm not going to to go back and research all past posts - frankly not worth my time. I commented on shooting 290 in my back yard and Spangler said "well if that is really true" or words to that effect. Take it or leave it, that is what he said. Following that you and he engaged in a series of comments on how many people failed to understand the issues of arrow length versus shaft length versus draw length. Youtwohad quite a back and forth about the stupidity of those that did not have the knowledge that you two had."

That is just a stupid statement, and if you have half the honor and integrity you say you have then you would take the time to back up such a statement when you try to smear someones name.

Please, point out the posts where I have done what you have accused me of.


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## Shinsou (Aug 7, 2008)

Is this really the thread for that kind of stuff? 

:izza:



spangler said:


> Please, point out the posts where I have done what you have accused me of.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Shinsou said:


> Is this really the thread for that kind of stuff?
> 
> :izza:


when specific accusations have been leveled calling me out by name to something I haven't done...then yes...I believe it is the place.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Well, this thread may as well have stayed locked. Spangler, I understand your grievances, but what are the chances of you starting a new thread somewhere about it and inviting your participants there?


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

I'm with whiz-oz but I'd suggest having it sorted out in private or in a chatroom somewhere with a moderator or two and perhaps (plus hopefully) unbiased witnesses in attendance.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

spangler said:


> when specific accusations have been leveled calling me out by name to something I haven't done...then yes...I believe it is the place.


I tried to find it too. I posted that same thread about spine and as you noted, there's nothing there. Then it was on the Sky bow bit where again I posted all the threads I could find. PM Coming Andrew


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

whiz-Oz said:


> Well, this thread may as well have stayed locked. Spangler, I understand your grievances, but what are the chances of you starting a new thread somewhere about it and inviting your participants there?


Well, I guess I don't feel starting another thread would really change the discussion. My only real problem here is that some guy is making unbiased, unfounded, libelous, remarks about me, smearing my name to what is a very small community (archery).

I think that someone who does that should either back up their remarks or issue a public apology. 

Hell, if you even read the only thread in which he and I have had any interchange at all I even state in there, "Now I'm no expert and hope my earlier posts didn't come off as my pretending that I was."

If the guy had just stated, "I don't like Spangler, I think he is a big fat jerk" I would have been a-ok and fine with that. But he stated specific grievances which did not happen and attached my name with them. I believe that deserves a response.

-Andrew


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Yikes!!


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

I apologize for even creating this thread...please know that I did not have the intention to cause these sort of insults. It never ends....and I give up...it seems to me that the idea that people can share information while not arguing about petty bull**** is an impossiblity.

Progen your correct, While it was not my intention for the bashing and name calling to continue here it seems that the general result was to insite such action. I had hoped that people would take the initiative to recommend ways to fix this type of rethoric...my mistake...and I will fully take the blame for being optimistic that the general intelligence level of the posters on this board was higher than that of grade schooler. 

Moderators are not to blame. We are.

I have recieved a request to delete this thread by Spangler because he feels that posts here are defamatory to his name...I personally would like to make sure that he his given the opertunity to clear any insult or untruths that where aimed at him...but as per his request I don't think he will be given that opertunity. I have read many of the posts by Spangler and always find his information highly insiteful and useful...never once have I noticed him to be crass or insulting. Sir I would delete this thread immediately as per your request if I could. I apologize to you directly for getting sucked into this.

I will personally moderate this abomination I have created...I will close this thread once I feel Spangler has recieved a insightful answer or response to his concerns or if I feel that this is just going to be more of the same...odds are it won't make it through the night.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Try as I might I could find no evidence that Andrew (Spangler) was guilty of what he was charged with. Nor could I find any such posts of mine with Spanger doing what Zydeco complained of. I have met alot of people in FITA archery-I guess having helped run two JOAD Nationals, and Olympic Trials and a US Nationals I have met just about every avid FITA Shooter and the Spangler family is well respected and well liked in this sport. Class people.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

SA,

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to receive a further reply. As far as I am concerned the thread can be deleted and go right the heck away. I am disappointed that my first posts in quite some time on AT had to be this kind of stuff but I really felt I had to defend my name.

I would be happy if this thread just went away.

-Andrew


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

It was very easy perform some basic searches of threads that Mr.Zydeco and Mr.Spanger both participated in, and it was again quite easy to determine exactly who here is spewing venomous bile, and who here is the man of integrity.

:set1_punch:


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Jim C said:


> whatever, since you don't have
> 
> 1) the integrity to be honest about the thread you are talking about its probably good riddance
> 
> ...


Kill em with kindness Jim....:wink:


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

ScarletArrows said:


> I apologize for even creating this thread...please know that I did not have the intention to cause these sort of insults. It never ends....and I give up...it seems to me that the idea that people can share information while not arguing about petty bull**** is an impossiblity.
> 
> Progen your correct, While it was not my intention for the bashing and name calling to continue here it seems that the general result was to insite such action. I had hoped that people would take the initiative to recommend ways to fix this type of rethoric...my mistake...and I will fully take the blame for being optimistic that the general intelligence level of the posters on this board was higher than that of grade schooler.
> 
> ...


It will never go away....There are those who will always be right...and they'll insult the heck out of anyone who stands up to them. Two or three here run the web site...at least in their minds. Truly unfortunate.

Art


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ArtV said:


> Kill em with kindness Jim....:wink:


I find it interesting you feel a need to comment about me when it is obvious I wasn't the one who made unsupported attacks on someone else. Still mad about that crossbow thing Art?


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

The one real advantage of Internet Forums, is that the evidence of who said what is available to anyone who has the ability to use the search function. 

All it takes is for one person to spend the time doing a search, to link to the information as it was presented. This forum has a time limit for edits as well, so unless moderators get involved, or a backup fails, you can be called to account for what you write. 

While people's ability in real life to avoid answering questions or justifying what they say is hard to task them to, on a forum, you may be confronted with what you have failed to do every single time you log on, if someone wants to remind you of it. 

Your online persona and credibility can live and die by the sword. Nobody cares what equipment you own or what you say you can do if they don't see it with their own eyes. 
Knowledge can be presented, but it doesn't necessarily have to be originated with a poster either. 

Respect for a forum poster is something that they do not demand. They earn it by what they contribute. 

Eventually, you figure out who is knowledgeable, who is helpful, who is a fanboi and who should populate your ignore list. 

I would implore some people here to do something that will give you a feeling of exercising control here, like you do in your normal life. Define the people who you would avoid in real life by listing their names in your ignore list. 

You have a spam filter on your email to prevent you wasting time with pointless crap from mindless individuals. You lock your doors at night to stop people from entering your environment, you turn down your hearing aid when your mother-in-law is talking to you and you steer around bumps and potholes in the road. 

Extend this ability to make yourself as comfortable and free of irritation as possible. Use your Ignore list for the opinions that you really don't want in your life.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

Whiz has the only solution...its sad, but true. You can't expect self control or personal responsibility (sorry Warbow turns out your just as Optimistic as I am.)

Ignore function is located on your User CP page...Under *Settings and Options


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

SandSquid said:


> It was very easy perform some basic searches of threads that Mr.Zydeco and Mr.Spanger both participated in, and it was again quite easy to determine exactly who here is spewing venomous bile, and who here is the man of integrity.
> 
> :set1_punch:


Some times it, sometimes it isn't, especially since some especially contentious threads are deleted completely rather than locked. I have no idea if there is a deleted thread or not, but it remains a possibility. But, things can be mis-remembered with time, so if I ever bring up something old I do sometimes try to research it myself beforehand before posting.whiz-Oz 
Registered User




whiz-Oz said:


> The one real advantage of Internet Forums, is that the evidence of who said what is available to anyone who has the ability to use the search function.


Yes, thought that is only true for positive evidence. If you find something, then you have evidence of that thing. If, on the other hand, you can't find a post where someone claimed somebody was being bad that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Much of the modding that goes on at AT to make the forum a better place is quiet pruning and sometimes even the deletion of entire threads--without notice or explanation. So there are many things that have actually happened that a search will not reveal, so we all need to be careful when saying what "did not happen" because we don't have a complete record (and the search feature is pathetic and does "OR" word searches instead of "AND" searches--any one know how to get around that?)


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Some times it, sometimes it isn't, especially since some especially contentious threads are deleted completely rather than locked.


This is why it's especially important to quote posts before someone can get back to fix up their rare spelling mistakes or lapses in proofreading...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

whiz-Oz said:


> This is why it's especially important to quote posts before someone can get back to fix up their rare spelling mistakes or lapses in proofreading...




That can help, but I've had some some of my quotes go down the memory hole, too. I don't know if there is an automatic feature for a cascading deletion of all quotes that have the link back code to a deleted post or not or whether it was merely the diligent work of a thorough mod. And, of course, when entire threads are deleted it doesn't matter what you quoted.

Anyway, it is good for people to remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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## MetalHorse442 (Feb 24, 2010)

I just want to say from a perspective of a fairly new member who reads more than posts, it seems a lot of people bicker of trivial things. I appreciate the likes of Viper1 and Limbwalker who have always replied to my posts with useful information and expressed their advice as opinions. I think the bickering detracts from the community, but it's not hard to ignore as long as one doesn't choose to feed the trolls. Thanks to everyone who makes this community a valuable resource.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

MetalHorse442 said:


> I appreciate the likes of Viper1 and Limbwalker who have always replied to my posts with useful information and _expressed their advice as opinions_.


Here is a very important difference. 
Opinions should always be identified as opinions. 

If Limbwalker was to say " Pistachio icecream is the best because I think it is."
and Viper1 came back with " You've obviously never experienced Paul's Vanilla Choc-chip, because it is better" it would be reasonably easy for someone who has tasted icecream in their lives to come back with their own opinion which has just as much weight. 

But then Spangler might reply with what is the best icecream, with his documented evidence of a PhD in advanced Icecream Production, his job of CEO at the worlds largest icecream production and export facility, a family history of inventing Icecream, supplying it to the both sides during the American Civil War and his Grandfather smuggling it to Jamaica in his underpants during the Prohibition.

And it's still opinion, so everyone is correct. You just can't argue opinion without having some facts to back it up.

If opinions weren't presented as facts, we'd never have any problems. 

I for instance, object to common practice being used as evidence for superiority of the method. The use of spinwings comes to mind. 

When people present unsupported statements of opinion as fact, letting them be unchallenged perpetuates a culture of ignorance. 

There are some people here whose fame lets them remain unchallenged when they say things that are their opinion. All they need to is say "I think" in front of some statement and it becomes presented as such. 

People will be more likely to accept that their opinions are wrong if you can present them with actual facts that can get them to change their mind. 

Someone who is sure that their information is a fact is far less likely to consider it to be incorrect. 

The absolute best discussions on here are carried out by people who are skilled at presenting information so that it can be understood, without resorting to dodgy references to back them up. 

Just remember that a true expert will be able to explain anything to you so that you understand it. They know the absolute basics back to front and don't have to use any jargon.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

whiz-Oz said:


> But then Spangler might reply with what is the best icecream, with his documented evidence of a PhD in advanced Icecream Production, his job of CEO at the worlds largest icecream production and export facility, a family history of inventing Icecream, supplying it to the both sides during the American Civil War and his Grandfather smuggling it to Jamaica in his underpants during the Prohibition.
> 
> And it's still opinion, so everyone is correct. You just can't argue opinion without having some facts to back it up.


The real irony of your example is that I am one of those few people who doesn't really like ice cream.

I know...I don't like chocolate or cake (especially chocolate cake) either.

-Andrew


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

spangler said:


> The real irony of your example is that I am one of those few people who doesn't really like ice cream.


Ohh, but you've never tried my (now world famous) Habanero/Mint/Chocolate_Chip ice cream.


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## wildjim (Jan 27, 2010)

Its a wonderful thread to reveal the ego personalities here ; )


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

Might I make a small suggestion? 

No one EVER wins an Internet debate, except possibly in their own or their "friends" minds. Best bet (IMHO) is to state your case, back it up the best you can (once) and then move on. The alternative is a multi-page thread signifying nothing ... 

Viper1 out.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> No one EVER wins an Internet debate.


Interesting. 

So does that logically mean that the total pwnership that I have occasionally experienced when I pushed my luck wasn't the opposite of winning?

I think that your post is missing "I think" in front of it. 

I have seen many Internet debates soundly won when the loser capitulated and was forced by logic to change their opinion. And I've been on both sides. 

I appreciate few things more than being shown that I'm wrong by someone who does it calmly and overwhelmingly convincingly. 

I guess that's generally because I prefer to be in the company of people who are more predispositioned to try to lift me up, rather than show me the way down.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> Ohh, but you've never tried my (now world famous) Habanero/Mint/Chocolate_Chip ice cream.


Make that Jalepeno and the people down here in TX would love it.

They will eat anything if you put jalepenos on it.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

damn it now I want Ice cream...this thread is epic.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

spangler said:


> Make that Jalepeno and the people down here in TX would love it.
> 
> They will eat anything if you put jalepenos on it.


The ultimate death for those of us with GERD.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

spangler said:


> Make that Jalepeno and the people down here in TX would love it.
> 
> They will eat anything if you put jalepenos on it.


Well, your wish is granted!

Only in America would this stuff even be contemplated..

http://www.coldsweaticecream.com/


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Jim C said:


> The ultimate death for those of us with GERD.


The little purple pill does wonders buddy!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

titanium man said:


> The little purple pill does wonders buddy!!


yeah true

I am on OTC Prilosac as needed

I do the full house stuff once a year for several weeks


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Jim C said:


> I find it interesting you feel a need to comment about me when it is obvious I wasn't the one who made unsupported attacks on someone else. Still mad about that crossbow thing Art?


You assume to much Jim. You keep bringing it up not me. It was a pointless conversation regarding crossbows. The vast majority of hunting archers feel as I do about them...you my friend are the minority...however, as a competitive weapon...have at it. Lets face it they have been around almost as long as the longbow.

The psychology of why those who hunt with one stands true. But, the organizations fighting to get them banded will win in the end. They offer to much fodder for the "anti's". And, the argument is different than when the compound came on the scene......But, this is off topic... 

Regarding this tread. The whole thing is about you.....I didn't chose the subject. But, I like the change to ice cream and hot peppers.:wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

The whole thing is about me-now that is truly funny.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Actually, at this point, the whole thing is just sad.

John.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

can you say "Good Bye"


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