# Is there a good reason to use a Self-Bow?



## yakinchrispy (Aug 20, 2013)

although I am still getting into traditional archery, being on the tall end of the spectrum (6'4) I could see the benefit of having a custom made bow at your desired poundage at your draw length, something that is very hard to find with most manufacturers. Most generic even higher end bows are all measured to the 28" draw length, so if you have a longer or shorter draw length not only the poundage changes but I would imagine the efficiency of the bow changes as well.


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## berzerk64 (Nov 27, 2013)

Yes, and no. I build my own bows in addition to using manufactured bows. For every four I build, I like and keep one. The rest I give to friends and such for whom they may be better suited. I shoot my own bows more than I do the manufactured bows, but I still use bought bows as well. The main motivator, to my mind, in getting a custom bow is to get a specific set up that is either unavailable due to price or availability in the manufactured bow world, OR, to have a one-off, custom, no one else will have it bow. All valid reasons. That said, I wouldn't recommend running out and putting down money on a custom bow without having a pretty good idea of your preferred or optimal set up. Longbow or recurve, overall length, geometry, etc. Or, the fact that a good custom bowyer will put the attention into your bow that is simply not possible with manufactured bows, giving you more confidence in the quality, performance, etc. I've seen more than a few manufactured bows come apart in the hands of the user. I think this is sheer numbers and process. I've rarely heard of a custom bow made by a reputable bowyer coming apart. That's not to disparage manufactured bows, I think it's just the nature of the beast, manufactured bows are made using basically the same process as a custom, but more numbers and according to a set spec, in a repetition that maybe allows more errors in. Glue voids are bad bad bad, but if I am producing 4-5 bows today, versus one, there is just a little higher likelihood of a mistake. But, manufacturers generally employ good bowyers and processes, so it's a relative rarity, even so.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

MarkJoel60 said:


> I realize that much of Archery is: "I like it this way." And, really that is probably reason enough. But, that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if there is a performance/accuracy reason for having a custom bow built. (I _know _they're gorgeous!)
> 
> Years ago, I was in a pool league. Not really a great player, but I liked playing. Someone told me I should get a custom cue made -- it would improve my game. Except the guy telling me that was a custom cue maker -- so, I didn't fully believe him. But he was a good guy and he had a cue that was a little blemished so his customer asked for a new one. The customer was about my height, so this cue maker just gave me the blemished cue (the problem was in the way the ivory inset looked -- nothing in the performance). He told me he would end up just throwing it away anyway... so for $0, I had a custom cue. Man, what a difference it made in my game! Now, i don't know if it would have been worth the money I would have paid to buy it, since I was only in a bar league... but I had to admit, I shot MUCH better with a well made cue that was for a guy my size (I'm not huge, just about 6'1" -- but above average makes a difference...)
> 
> ...


I think we're conflating/confusing some terms here. My understanding is selfbow means a one-piece, ie, bow made from a single piece of wood. As opposed to a takedown multi piece bow. I have also heard the term used regarding bows made by one's self. A custom bow is a bow made for you.

I would say that from a target shooter perspective of course you want the right bow length, a bow that will draw to the right draw length without much stack, etc. etc. In that sense, a bow suited to you is in fact ideal. I think a lot of traditional wood recurves are too short for target purposes, though perhaps better for hunters in tight spaces. I like a 68 bow and find the <62 stuff tiny. I used a 60 wood bow for nationals and while a sentimental like of mine it drove me nuts. Longbows, I see more 68 type options out there that are probably closer to the right bow length for normally sized people.

I say this because depending if you want custom longbow or recurve, or have a real preference between high tech and wood, it's debatable whether some custom bow, probably wood, is going to be ideal. It depends on purposes. It depends on bow type. Unless I am doing a trad event or class that requires wood bows, I am shooting a modern ILF of medium size and limbs. I don't see the advantage of wood custom for those purposes, it would be a concession. If I wanted a longbow, it might be just as good to go custom, and they can be gotten in the right lengths too. Choosing wood and/or custom for a recurve is usually a throwback thing, and I don't see many in the right lengths for target efficiency. If you want throwback or hunting, fine. But if you're thinking about it like a pool shark, the best recurve tool would be an ILF of appropriate size. The fancy custom bows would often be more akin to people showing up with a fancy ornamental pool cue that is not as effective as your modern, mass manufactured thing. I am sure some expensive wood custom recurves are nice and good. But as good as a $250 ILF SF bow? Or even an upgraded ILF of similar price to the nice customs? That to me is more of a lifestyle choice. "This is what a real bow is to me." Regardless of what we'd use to shoot 300 rounds.

You get an ILF and they are readily available in different lengths, limb sizes, 2# limb increments, etc., effectively customized to you if you buy the right pieces in the right specs. I also have a trad recurve and a longbow, and the longbow in particular I made more effort to ensure it was a longer bow like I like, just what I wanted on weight, etc.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree with cwpolloc on the value of getting a bow that fits when you deviate from standard size. I am 6'4" and have a 32 inch draw. Even many custom bowyers do not build for long draws. I had a 70 inch longbow built for me by Falco. I had a fairly small list of companies that build bows as long as that. Now if you are in around the sweet spot for draw length, you can probably buy off the shelf without much trouble. The question is what are you customizing? Some folks have grips tailor to them, but that is difficult unless you can work directly with the bowyer. I used to get custom shoe inserts made. They built them off of a foot casting but then had to be reworked until they felt right. I am not sure you communicate your grip requirements in an email. Also, bear in mind that if you are asking for something that is mechanically different than something made before, there is no guarantee that it will come out as expected, or hoped. It might be better to say "configured to you" rather than custom. Just like the pool cue example. There could be cosmetic changes but the functional changes probably follow well understood patterns that the cue maker knows how to tweak to meet different physical requirements. The same should apply for bows.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Thanks for the input everyone. It seems pretty much like what I expected.

I want to address something Azzurri said in particular:



Azzurri said:


> I think we're conflating/confusing some terms here. My understanding is selfbow means a one-piece, ie, bow made from a single piece of wood. As opposed to a takedown multi piece bow. I have also heard the term used regarding bows made by one's self. A custom bow is a bow made for you.


Yeah, even as I wrote that, I knew I was expressing it badly. 

What I didn't want it to be was looking like I had an axe to grind with custom bowyers (because I don't) or devolve into a Recurve vs Longbow debate. ("Howard Hill said it's easier to shot a longbow" -- "Well, G. Fred Asbell says recurves are better..." etc).

In my mind, when I said "Self-Bow" what I meant was a bow made from one piece of wood. But that isn't really right, either, because that doesn't take into account the lamination, etc. I guess I should have just said: Custom Bow.

Another way of asking the question is like this:

In every sport, you get what you pay for... until you reach a point that you are paying for more than you're getting. Take bike riding... You can buy a Wal-Mart special and hit the trails for $150. But it isn't too long before you realize that the higher end bikes are more expensive for a reason. You start moving up and pretty soon you're over $1500 to buy a Trek. But there is a reason for that, and you can justify it if you take the sport seriously. But then you get into the special carbon fiber, making everything as light as you can so you can win the Tour De France. And now you are spending $15K on a bike. But you're never going to ride in the Tour de France, so at some point you started spending money on value that you can't really justify. (probably).

I'm trying to figure out what that point is in Archery. I know its different for everyone. I just wanted to hear people's thoughts and where they draw the lines. If that makes sense...?


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## berzerk64 (Nov 27, 2013)

A good bare bow can be had in longbow or recurve. How you shoot, where you shoot, what you shoot, all factor in. I think the point of diminishing return on investment varies. The Samick Sage is a great value at less than $150 for a good, solid, basic recurve you can get years of shooting from. I think paying $600 for any bow is excessive, no matter what. But, there are guys who swear by the higher end bows. If they were still relevant tools of war, maybe I would feel different. But for target and hunting, I'd say, as a general rule subject to exceptions, $150-400 is the range, just price-wise, unless/until you know that a particular bow, of whatever cost, is precisely suited to you. But that price range is no less arbitrary or relevant than my personal experience and budget! That's why I just started making my own.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The only reason to shoot a selfbow or all wood laminate is romance, period.

Even the best custom glass-powered bow will struggle to beat anything but the lowest priced ILF setup.

For $250-350 you can get a whole lot of off the shelf performance.

Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mark -

You have to ask yourself what YOU want out of archery. 

There's no way a self bow, any self bow (definition = bow made from only one material) will have the stability, performance and durability of a more modern laminated bow, one piece or T/D. The ILF type T/D feature just adds a further level of customization. 

However, there are a number of people in the trad world who have little interest in stability, performance or durability, it may be a nostalgia thing or the DIY thing. 

The custom bow thing is another story. You can have a beautiful custom bow made to exact specifications by working one on one with a good bowyer. But next year, your style or form or idea of aesthetics may change and that perfectly weighted, gripped, tillered and finished bow becomes a piece of firewood. 

You also made a very good point about the high-ends bikes. 
Read this and other "trad" forums (OK, most any forums) for any length of time, and you'll see people fretting over things that couldn't possibly affect their shooting one bit. 

I can tell a new shooter (who actually wants to learn to shoot) what would be an appropriate first bow. The more experienced he becomes, he has to start telling me what he wants/needs.

Viper1 out.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

A selfbow is a bow carved from one solid piece of wood.

Any bow made with laminations in the limbs is not a selfbow.

You can get longbows made with only wood limb laminations. 

I'm not aware of any recurves that don't use multiple laminations, but that doesn't mean someone isn't making a recurve selfbow. Recurves are normally wood laminations sandwiched between fiberglass laminations, although some high performance limbs incorporate carbon. The highest performing limb is probably being made by Border Archery at this time, look them up to see the state of the art.

Even though I own and enjoy several customs, I agree with Grant. You can get all the performance you need to take you as far as you want to go in archery with a good ILF riser and a decent set of limbs, or even a good production take down or one piece recurve or longbow. You can spend more and you get more, but the more is in the areas of personal material choices, fit, finish, beauty and craftsmanship. These things may or may not be important to you.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Wow, everyone on here is so reasonable! So unusual for internet forums!



berzerk64 said:


> If they were still relevant tools of war, maybe I would feel different.


Ha! This cracked me up. Yeah, if we were facing down the English at Agincort, give me the very best no matter the cost!



grantmac said:


> The only reason to shoot a selfbow or all wood laminate is romance, period.


Although romance is almost reason enough. Almost...



Easykeeper said:


> The highest performing limb is probably being made by Border Archery at this time, look them up to see the state of the art.


I will check them out, thanks!



Viper1 said:


> Mark -
> You have to ask yourself what YOU want out of archery.


Hey Viper, thanks for chiming in. I just ordered your book off of Amazon yesterday. I expect after I get it I'll have 100 more ideas/questions. Let me briefly describe where I am (and get ready all, here comes my TL;DR section)

I started shooting as a kid. We had a great setup because our yards backed up to a county park. It was a working farm that every other year bailed hay. They bailed one night and picked up the next day, so we would sneak up and pull the bales down into the woods where we had a great little archery range set up. We didn't have good equipment. We lived on hand me down bows and arrows we bought from the hardware store. We knew almost nothing. But even then we knew that certain arrows just "seemed to land" better than others. Now I know that's spine.

I was never really good, but none of us were, so I was good enough.

Years later, in my twenties, I'd try my hand at a compound. I hated it. Went back to traditional. Looked at the prices and thought -- wow when did Bear get so damn expensive? Ended up scrounging around garage sales. Got a couple recurves and even a longbow. Still didn't know what I was doing, but at least I had money now, so my arrows were better. Joined a club. Read some books. Bought Fred Asbell's books, subscribed to some magazines, and even got some Howard Hill videos. Had more fun, but still not really as reliable as I wanted to be when I shot.

I lived in Texas when Bois D'arc press started. Bought the Bowyers Bible and dreamed of making my own bow because that seemed really cool. But I never did because my job took me travelling too much. I knew I would never have the time to complete it.

Years pass, here I am at age 57. Still have a job that keeps me busy. And in addition, I also Pastor a small church outside of Pittsburgh. A couple of the guys in the church hunt with compounds and we were talking one day and came up with this wild idea to start an archery club. (You might have seen my thread in "General Archery" section.) I'm guessing most of the guys who join the club will go with the Compounds, and that's OK. But I want to stay traditional.

When I was out west, I had two friends who shot compounds, and we would do the walk through range together. When they got their range and sights, they were a lot more accurate than I was. But when we would first come on a target, they actually struggled to get their distances more than I did. I know I couldn't hang with anyone who was really good, but I was good enough that at least I didn't get too embarrassed. When the 3D targets were up, I at least hit the deer. Maybe not "kills" but at least we weren't chasing my arrows into the woods.

So now I'm probably going to be doing something similar -- but I'm not as strong as I used to be. My shoulders concern me if I start shooting a lot. My eyes aren't what they used to be. I'm not decrepit, but I used to be able to hold a 55# longbow back at full draw for awhile, settle myself and shoot. I know I can't do that anymore.

I want to get accurate from 25-40 yards. I don't need to shoot 300, but I do want to hit the target. I'm going to have to go down in weight, but I don't know how well my patience is going to last if I have to loop my arrows to the moon to get them to land on the rump of a deer target at 40 yards. My old 55# longbow (long since gone) had a pretty flat line when I shot aluminum arrows. I'd love to go buy a new custom bow, but even though I do all right I can't justify dropping $1000 on a bow right now. And I especially can't handle a 12 week wait. Sure, there is something in me that loves a longbow and the smell of cedar arrows -- but the something in me that likes watching my arrows fletching showing right behind where I was aiming is much stronger. 

I recently ordered a Samick Journey. I got 30# limbs for it. I haven't checked, but I used to be about a 30-31 inch draw. Not sure I'll get to that now, but that's what I used to have my arrows set for. So, I figure that even the 30# limbs will be giving me close to 40# at full draw. What I liked about the Riser setup is that as I get my form and strength back, I can move up in weight. 

If I start shooting a lot, I might actually go into another longbow, and actually drop some money on it. But I also might stay the ILF riser route. I don't know yet. First I have to get my form back and get hitting where I'm aiming.

Speaking of aiming, I was always pure instinctive. Part of what I love about shooting is that my day job is all left brained stuff. I like just using the right side when I shoot. It's almost like a brain massage for me.

OK... there is the full story. Any advice is always welcome.

Thanks all!


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## berzerk64 (Nov 27, 2013)

I wouldn't give up on making your own! I spend as much time scraping wood as I do bending it. It kept me sane through a divorce, and you really can start fairly inexpensively. It's as addictive to make them as it is to shoot them, if you like working with your hands. Even a board bow is fun to make. Some of my favorite shooters were sinew backed hickory bows from boards from the hardwood store. My first bow split, but my second one still hangs on a rack as a reminder and motivator, and it cost a grand total of $30 to make. The upside is, you can set it aside and come back to it whenever time allows. I used to travel 50-75% of the time, still scraped out a couple longbows a year. I still take my stick bows out as much as my fiberglass bows. Any day in the field with a stick and string in hand is better than not, I don't care what the particulars of your setup are.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mark -

I don't think you need a lot of advice. Seems like you have a pretty good handle on things. 

If shooting is what you're after, then the Samick Journey will get you more than started. 
Only issue you have will be with that draw length, you may need to shoot over spined arrows for a while. 
That's not as big a deal as folks will have you believe.

Just enjoy the ride, err Journey ... 

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I rarely disagree with Viper1 (except when it comes to '70s Hoyts ) and this time is no exception. "You have to ask yourself what YOU want out of archery."

Some people have one bow they've owned for decades, others buy several every year and keep a whole stable full, or just sell them to someone else. 

I have a good friend who is a bit of a character. He's been shooting over 50 years, and his favorite is still a "Bushwacker" (which for those who don't know it, is a metal handle, solid glass limb cheapie takedown that was advertised in the '60s archery mags for $19.99). He has 2 of them, but unfortunately both sets of limbs are shot so I'm trying to retrofit some cheap wood/glass limbs to fit it. I gave him a Journey last year as a gift since his next favorite backup was a vintage Ben Pearson something-or-other with a twisted limb. He's shooting the Journey well, but reluctantly, probably because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings. You could give him the "best" custom bow available, but it would just stay hanging on his wall.

What you might want to do is hang around at a club and try a couple of shots with other peoples' bows. Most people are willing to let you shoot a few arrows. You are pretty likely to find one or two bows that just seem to call out to you "buy me", and then you can order one to your own specifications.


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## bravefeather (Dec 28, 2015)

Self bows are quieter than most glass laminated bows will perform pretty darn well if designed to I made some self bows that are as fast as some modern glass bows on the market today its all in the eye of the beholder. I will say that a well built osage will last a lifetime If you take proper care of it but they are wood and can break if not handled properly just not as tough than backed laminated bows but they can be a good lifelong friend.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> If shooting is what you're after, then the Samick Journey will get you more than started.
> Only issue you have will be with that draw length, you may need to shoot over spined arrows for a while.
> That's not as big a deal as folks will have you believe.


That's interesting. I didn't realize that draw length would affect the spining. I thought it was purely a bow/weight thing. I guess I'll figure this out as I go, but you said "for awhile." Does that mean as my form changes my need for over spining goes down? Or you're just figuring that eventually I will move into a different bow (or different limbs)?


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Stash said:


> What you might want to do is hang around at a club and try a couple of shots with other peoples' bows. Most people are willing to let you shoot a few arrows. You are pretty likely to find one or two bows that just seem to call out to you "buy me", and then you can order one to your own specifications.


Well, I'm going to be hanging out at a club! Unfortunately, I don't expect many tradtionals there. But we'll see. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised



bravefeather said:


> Self bows are quieter than most glass laminated bows will perform pretty darn well if designed to I made some self bows that are as fast as some modern glass bows on the market today its all in the eye of the beholder. I will say that a well built osage will last a lifetime If you take proper care of it


Oh yes. Osage. AKA Bois D'arc. They were crazy about it in Texas. I always thought it was a mystical plant you had to know just the right place to find. When someone first pointed one out to me, I was shocked. "Wait, you mean it's just a monkey ball tree?" In Western PA where I'm from those trees were everywhere. We used to throw Monkey balls at each other all the time.



berzerk64 said:


> I wouldn't give up on making your own! I spend as much time scraping wood as I do bending it. It kept me sane through a divorce, and you really can start fairly inexpensively.


We'll see. Right now I'm still trying to scrape out enough time to shoot!


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Like Grant said, usually it's the romanticism. I have toyed with the idea of making my own selfbow just for a project, but I'm certain it would never be my go to bow. I'm too spoiled by modern design, workmanship, and performance. Archery is a very personal thing. We all have our own reasons for shooting traditional equipment. 

There are folks who have no desire to hunt, maybe they're into one or more of the target archery sports, or maybe they just fling arrows in their backyards for the pleasure and relaxation of it. 

There are folks out there who are really into primitive archery. They wear buckskin clothes, **** skin hats, shoot cane arrows with self nocks and turkey feathers and flint knapped broadheads tied on with deer sinew they harvested themselves etc, and they wouldn't trade their 75# self bow that spits an arrow out at a flaming 115 FPS for all the modern bows in the world. 

There are folks who dress up like Lord of the Rings characters and pretend they're Legolas on the weekends. 

There are folks who get all wrapped up in the spirit of the wild, soul cleansing, channeling Fred Bear and Howard Hill every time they're in the woods. They like Fedoras and buy plaid ponchos from G. Fred Asbell. They have quotes in their sig lines from famous dead Indians. They like D shaped longbows, back quivers, wood arrows with cresting jobs that rival the Sistine Chapel and believe instinctive shooting is the only way. 

There are folks who just like shooting and hunting with recurves, longbows, or both. They're not interested in the opinions of the trad police, they wear modern camo, maybe even Under Armour, shoot reflex/deflex bows and intentionally refer to them as longbows even though it ruffles feathers.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

MarkJoel60 said:


> That's interesting. I didn't realize that draw length would affect the spining. I thought it was purely a bow/weight thing. I guess I'll figure this out as I go, but you said "for awhile." Does that mean as my form changes my need for over spining goes down? Or you're just figuring that eventually I will move into a different bow (or different limbs)?


I believe he's referring to the problem you may have in finding arrows long enough for you in a weak enough spine, until you can work your way up to a heavier limb.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mark -

Static spine is what's listed on most charts, and is a starting point at best.

Basic Physics, the longer something is, the easier it is to bend. That goes into what's called dynamic spine or how the arrow reacts to the bow.

A 28" 1816 aluminum arrow should "spin" to about 35#, make it 30", and it can "spine" to about 10# weaker. 
So, like Stash said, thanks to Easton's marketing and production practices, getting a long enough arrow that will be safe to shoot may not be available in the stiffness you need. Again, not a terrible thing.

As most people's form develops. their draw length do get longer. Sometimes that requires a stiffer spined arrow, sometimes not. 
Can't tell from here.

Viper1 out.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Stash and Viper, thanks!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

fivics makes some pretty light spines at full length...


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