# Bringing more diversity into WA events



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it? 

How have you done it, if you have? 

What I see when I attend USArchery Nationals is predominately white upper middle class families. What can we do to make the sport more accessible and inclusive?


----------



## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Limbwalker,

That's a great point and question. I wish I had the answer, because I saw the same thing at the local outdoor range that I attended prior to Covid... except maybe not the upper class part. I see a pretty good mix of wealthy and not so wealthy white and Eastern Asian archers, but hardly any black, Western Asian (India, Pakistani, Iranian etc.) or latino archers. Which is odd because San Diego has a huge latino population.

I would guess for a lot of communities access is an issue, and cost would be the other barrier to the sport if a free range wasn't available. I think the gear can be bought pretty cheap, but paying $10+/hour to use a private range is not appealing to a lot of people, including me.
If you could find a park or somewhere that allows archery, bring a bunch of gear and offer free lessons I am sure you could get some people interested. Private ranges could offer discounted evening sessions or free range days?


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Although the hobby isn't expensive compared to others, competing in it definitely is. Plus there really isn't much hope of significantly changing socioeconomic class via success in archery, other sports have that at a possibility remote though it is.


----------



## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I've considered a more inclusive, less elitist format geared toward newbies and those wanting to compete, but not necessarily at 90 meters or 104 yards, with commensurate lower-cost equipment. Not everyone who wants to get into archery wants to drop well over 3k on high end riser/limbs/arrows/sight/etc just to miss the bale a crap ton at the longest distances when they start out. Or feel that they have to spend in order to "keep up," get discouraged and never start at all.

The last time I suggested this on another forum, I was set upon and told to "pay my dues and figure it out, we did!" I have witnessed this same attitude from archers, and all cards on the table, probably have been guilty of the same. 

I would reiterate this here: short distance competitions wherein draw weight and flagship equipment are less of a factor. 25 meters on a full 122cm, max draw weight restrictions beyond FITA. Short distance pegs for 3D/field. No trophies or record status, just a fun day shooting. Reduced cost of entry for these. USA Archery will also need to figure out one-day liability insurance for these events. Also, a try-it-out area to get spouses/parents/friends shooting.

More advertisement and more events that are accessible to lower income households, including local events, like say, at the local school gym or track (see above for suggested events). 

More acceptance of archery as an afterschool activity a la golf, which appears to be making some headway against its upper class image. 

More funding from USA/NFAA/ASA into archery development. 

Less emphasis on JOAD as only a gateway to the olympics/worlds.

JMHO


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I dunno......have you tried asking the guys at CHAZ?


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Please don't let this place go woke. Please.........


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

With my direct experience in teaching archery in Ivory Coast, were you have 99.99% native Africans population, I have some firms opinions about participation to modern archery sport from different ethnicities

1) Perception
Archery is not seen at any level as a sport, as "sport" by itself is seen as a way to make money, not to spend money

2) Tradition
Apart from 1) there is no tradition for many sports in Africa. For instance, no competitive swimming in Ivory Coast. They had a swimmer in Rio in 2016, but she was a student living in Italy training there with an Italian coach. 
Asked to friends there why no swimmers, they told me that in their country and most others African countries, you are teached in the childhood that water is dangerous and no one teaches to children to swim...

Discussed many times about how to spread archery in to medium high local class, were the money was not a problem, but barriers were 1 and 2, and may be they will never fall.

My direct experiencies in Morocco tell same.

You have to look to 1 and 2 to find the answers, believe me, money is not the main barrier.


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Perception and access to suitable ranges are probably the biggest factors. 

Perception of it being a competitive sport and not just something done to kill time at a summer camp is one factor. Perception that it's not just a bunch of "******* hunters" is another factor (that's also a factor in acquiring non-endemic sponsors). Regardless of how you feel about Justin Huish as a person, his gold medal in 96' did a lot of good toward making archery not look like a sport of hunters and weirdos just like Armstrong's TDF victories brought cycling to an audience that wasn't already clad in Lycra.

Access to suitable ranges is another factor to consider. In colder climates you need to have indoor ranges so that any momentum built up by a summer program can keep going throughout the year. I was introduced to archery at a summer camp and was lucky to have grown-up two miles from Hall's Arrow. So I just walked or rode my bike to the range. But if I had lived 20 miles away and needed to beg my single mom of four to take me to the range, I don't think I'd have continued in archery after summer camp. 

Money is a distant third factor. If someone really gets hooked on the sport, he/she will scrape together the money to participate. In my case, I used a range rental bow until saved money from delivering newspapers and shoveling snow to buy the second-hand equipment I wanted. When I got better I was lucky to have Butch "lend" me a Radian (I should probably return that some day) that I used until I was good enough to make my first Jr. USAT team which at the time meant I got a bow from Hoyt and a dozen ACEs. Would having parents who had money to spend on archery have helped? I don't think so because I saw tons of kids around me who came from money who said they wanted to win, but with one exception none of them actually wanted to do the real work it takes to win.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

For me it is purely cost. I have wanted to participate in National tournaments year after year but cost make it prohibitive. So I practice in my yard / local range and keep dreaming that maybe one day I win the lottery I can go to Nationals. .



limbwalker said:


> Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it?
> 
> How have you done it, if you have?
> 
> What I see when I attend USArchery Nationals is predominately white upper middle class families. What can we do to make the sport more accessible and inclusive?


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Many years ago before they had GoFund me, I know people who made a team but could not go because they could not afford it. The "next in line" who could afford to go, wound up being a member of the team. For me you have to choose, practice with good equipment, and have fun because if you do make a team, going anywhere is much too costly. There are people out there who have the drive but not the money to actually try to make a team. Doesn't have anything to do with race, just economic status and opportunity. Just my opinions. I see plenty of people of all colors in archery having fun. Some may be good enough, but if they do not have the money to go to all the required tournaments , you do not see them on the National stage. People always want to point to race but in this sport, there are plenty of races that just cannot afford to go to all the required tourneys, even white people.



limbwalker said:


> Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it?
> 
> How have you done it, if you have?
> 
> What I see when I attend USArchery Nationals is predominately white upper middle class families. What can we do to make the sport more accessible and inclusive?


----------



## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Here in NY anyone that wants to participate can and does participate. Ranges, clubs, events, coaching are all available to anyone that wants to participate. Archers helping archers is more common today than it was a few decades ago. 
We’ve talked about the cost of having the latest and greatest but if you really want to shoot you can find a way to make it a reality. Archery enthusiasm will never become a national pastime, you either like it enough to seek it out or you don’t.
Nick


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

RMBX10 said:


> Perception and access to suitable ranges are probably the biggest factors.
> 
> Perception of it being a competitive sport and not just something done to kill time at a summer camp is one factor. *Perception that it's not just a bunch of "******* hunters" is another facto*r (that's also a factor in acquiring non-endemic sponsors). Regardless of how you feel about Justin Huish as a person, his gold medal in 96' did a lot of good toward making archery not look like a sport of hunters and weirdos just like Armstrong's TDF victories brought cycling to an audience that wasn't already clad in Lycra.
> 
> ...


I think this is the main reason. So many people think the sport is more for ********. We run a "youth league" at my club and give free lessons for 4 hours before the youth league starts. My daughters friend (who happens to be black) was spending the weekend with us while her parents went away for their anniversary. I explained to her parents that we would be going to archery and she would be exposed to the sport. 

That year we had 33 kids in the league and another 6 that just showed up for the lessons/free range time. She [daughters friend] loved it and had such a great time shooting one of our Genesis bows, her parents bought her one. I picked her up/dropped her off every week for the next 6 weeks and she was having a great time!!!! 

We have a pizza party with a kids only 3D shoot, novelty games and the top 3 kids challenge 3 adults in the "All-Star Shoot". We always invite the families to be there on the last day to have some pizza and be a part of the fun. When her family arrived her dad made it a point to mention that the only "black people here, are the people that came in my car"!!!!

My daughter's friend has "hinted" that her parents:
a) discouraged her from pursuing archery 
b) told her to "pick a sport with fewer ********"

Based on discussions with my daughter.... her friend still shoots in her back yard but has not been back to an event at the club since.


----------



## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Here might be a good place to start..... https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/02/21/archery-larry-brown-dallas-jones-snapshot-new-york-steve-overmyer/


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Yes I agree you can scape up money to buy equipment but that pales to the cost of traveling to even one of the "required" shoots.
Sorry for that black girl whose parents discouraged her. I haven't seen anything like that. 
I still believe that if you eliminated all so called racial issues, it would come down to not being able to afford participating in all required tournaments, no matter what color you are.



Nick728 said:


> Here in NY anyone that wants to participate can and does participate. Ranges, clubs, events, coaching are all available to anyone that wants to participate. Archers helping archers is more common today than it was a few decades ago.
> We’ve talked about the cost of having the latest and greatest but if you really want to shoot you can find a way to make it a reality. Archery enthusiasm will never become a national pastime, you either like it enough to seek it out or you don’t.
> Nick


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Great story. 



SHPoet said:


> Here might be a good place to start..... https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/0...allas-jones-snapshot-new-york-steve-overmyer/


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

If you think competitive archery is expensive, try cycling. There are some similarities between the two sports that are worth noting when talking about making the sport more inclusive. Here's a good interview with a retired professional cyclist turned radiologist on the topic of racism in sport.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Why does it always have to be about race? I am seeing two sides now. The black girl whose parents didn't like ******** and the black cyclists who experienced bad things at the hands of a few idiots. Bottom line, it does not matter what race you are because it is too expensive for "most" people, regardless of color to attend all the "required" tournaments to make a team. How do you lump a whole race into one compartment based on the actions of a few? Black, white, Hispanic, etc. I have never seen it in archery but maybe that is because I am color blind. So sad.



RMBX10 said:


> If you think competitive archery is expensive, try cycling. There are some similarities between the two sports that are worth noting when talking about making the sport more inclusive. Here's a good interview with a retired professional cyclist turned radiologist on the topic of racism in sport.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Agreed



theminoritydude1112619097 said:


> Please don't let this place go woke. Please.........


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Good one 



theminoritydude said:


> I dunno......have you tried asking the guys at CHAZ?


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Let's get back to what in my opinion is the problem and that is the cost of "required" tournaments to make a team, not racism. When was the last time a National Outdoor tourney was held east of the Mississippi? If i remember correctly, maybe 2008? So half the people "required" to do this tournament have to spend thousands to go. Just my thoughts.



limbwalker said:


> Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it?
> 
> How have you done it, if you have?
> 
> What I see when I attend USArchery Nationals is predominately white upper middle class families. What can we do to make the sport more accessible and inclusive?


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Race has little to do with it. It's an economic issue. Make archery scholarships pay out a fraction of what football, baseball, softball, basketball, etc sports pay out, and we'd have alot more kids (and adults) of all races and economic backgrounds in our sport. Our Lebron James/Justin Verlander is Brady, and Brady makes a fraction of a fraction what they make.

I think we should push adults to try archery WAY more than we are now if we want to grow the sport and "include" more people regardless of race. I can count the kids who I competed with/shot with who still shoot past the age of 18-20 on one hand, and even if they shot collegiate even more drop out after their collegiate days are over. Meanwhile atleast 75% of the adults I know who have started shooting within the past 8 years still shoot.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

In total agreement! Thanks



Rylando said:


> Race has little to do with it. It's an economic issue. Make archery scholarships pay out a fraction of what football, baseball, softball, basketball, etc sports pay out, and we'd have alot more kids (and adults) of all races and economic backgrounds in our sport. Our Lebron James/Justin Verlander is Brady, and Brady makes a fraction of a fraction what they make.
> 
> I think we should push adults to try archery WAY more than we are now if we want to grow the sport and "include" more people regardless of race. I can count the kids who I competed with/shot with who still shoot past the age of 18-20 on one hand, and even if they shot collegiate even more drop out after their collegiate days are over. Meanwhile atleast 75% of the adults I know who have started shooting within the past 8 years still shoot.


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Braveheart said:


> Please don't let this place go woke. Please......... Agreed


And that's why the sport is seen by the outside as a bunch of "******* hunters."


----------



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rylando said:


> Race has little to do with it. It's an economic issue. Make archery scholarships pay out a fraction of what football, baseball, softball, basketball, etc sports pay out, and we'd have alot more kids (and adults) of all races and economic backgrounds in our sport. Our Lebron James/Justin Verlander is Brady, and Brady makes a fraction of a fraction what they make.
> 
> I think we should push adults to try archery WAY more than we are now if we want to grow the sport and "include" more people regardless of race. I can count the kids who I competed with/shot with who still shoot past the age of 18-20 on one hand, and even if they shot collegiate even more drop out after their collegiate days are over. Meanwhile atleast 75% of the adults I know who have started shooting within the past 8 years still shoot.


Uggghhhh I hate it when I agree with you but it seems to happen all the time. Lol


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

RMBX10 said:


> And that's why the sport is seen by the .outside as a bunch of "******* hunters."


Being "woke" or not has nothing to do with "******* hunters"....

Being woke almost certainly comes with a metric ****-ton of "White Guilt" and "special treatment" for the down-trodden/less fortunate. At least this is how my "woke" inlaws seem to think...

The way to get a more diverse group of participants at the bigger events is quite simple.... get them to show up and perform at the local level. If a person of color starts winning at local levels, they'll surely find their way to the bigger stage. 

I'm not a person of color but that's how I ended up shooting IBO Worlds/Lancaster etc... I won a bunch of local 3D shoots and Spot leagues and thought "Wow, I'm pretty freaking good at this archery thing!!!" I heard other folks talking about shooting the Lancaster Classic and thought, "I'm good enough to win here, why couldn't I win there?" As it turns out, I was a "big fish in a little pond"!!! I might be a contender in pretty much every local event but... at IBO Worlds/LAS, "I'm pretty much just another guy with a bow."


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I was just agreeing with the post. 



RMBX10 said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > Please don't let this place go woke. Please......... Agreed
> ...


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> "Bringing more diversity into WA events"
> 
> 1) Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it?
> 2) How have you done it, if you have?
> ...


From John's original writing prompt, here's what I see in Illinois, some of which John is responsible for :wink:

Illinois has a huge variety of folks in the state. Illinois undeniably has miles of racial baggage, but sensible people get along when they actually get face-to-face. There are two big metro areas, several smaller city-islands, surrounded by more soybeans than you'd ever want to see. Chicago itself has both the wealthiest and poorest neighborhoods in the state. It has the population density to support any activity you can imagine, and the real estate cost and regulation to prevent most organized fun from occurring. Recruiting in the north is easier, but we struggle to stay strongly connected to the rural areas, especially the southern region of the state (of which John was a pillar, back in the days of yore). Our strongest collegiate 3d team is there, though. 

Our young archers are less racially monochromatic than our adults. Most of our competition archery crowd are caucasian. The next broadly-defined groups are Asian, then Indian. Our state's fastest growing youth club is nearly entirely African American. It's easy among the kids, because they just don't care at all about what colors their friends and competitors are.

Financially, we naturally have affluent families. We also have families that enjoy this enough to find ways to make it work. We have poor private school families, rich public school families, and lots of homeschooling families. We have clubs who carpool, or borrow a bus to travel to events. We have the usual rotating pool of beginner equipment that is swapped around. This is an area where I think we can make improvements. 

*How have we done this ('B-' result with massive room for improvement) ?* We're incredibly lucky to have leadership who sets a great example of being inviting and setting expectations around what actions the community will and won't allow. 

I think our success stems from the primary state goal of "Create a positive archery experience for _everyone_." That leads to being inviting and supportive, to club leaders being creative in finding venues, equipment, and funding. To accepting that some folks just want to have a fun day, others want to compete against themselves, and others want to ride the rails into elite competition. It leads to tempering the competitive friction once we're off of the competition field and recognizing that we either all grow together or we all vanish together.

Having an inviting group, and helping grow and spread the resources to start archery are the two pieces that I think are the most important. Money and equipment are the easier part. Having folks available to teach Day 1 archery in a fun, inviting way is a golden luxury. It's often thankless and exasperating. Expanding this pool of folks who enjoy (at least occasionally) starting new archers is critical for the game. I got started at the Pasadena Roving Archers, who have run a "try archery" style class every Saturday for decades. That's a massive amount of work, but they bring thousands of people to archery every year.

Texas and Ohio both have state org programs to get start-up equipment for new clubs. That needs some wise guidance, but sounds like an excellent idea. Similarly, clubs should probably run a lending library of new/intermediate equipment. Removing any of the start-up barriers lets more people ride the serendipity of loving archery.

*So, what can be done to make the game more accessible and inclusive?* People aren't groups, they're each individuals, and will make choices based on their own individual balance of needs, wants, and resources. So, if we want them to choose archery, we need to make it something folks will choose to want, while minimizing the resources required to play. (In time, experience, and money)

1) To take care of people's "needs", build a functioning society. That's beyond the scope of this too-long post. Love thy neighbor.

2) To build "want", I would get in touch with local homeschooling groups and churches (temples, synagogues, mosques). Put up fliers at community centers. Go meet people who aren't like you. Personally inviting people makes a huge difference. Hold "Try Archery" events (and be prepared both for the usual outcome of zero response after a group tries archery, and for the outcome that a large number want to continue for a couple more sessions). At your shoots and tournaments, make sure there are paths to have fun for everyone -- first-timers, middle-pack, champions, spectators. Deliver the event within the rules, but also with memorable fun, food, friendship, etc.

3) For "resources", find a way to have a pile of basic bows and stacks of arrows around. Have easy answers if folks want to buy their own basic equipment. If you can, independently insure your club so some folks can just be club members without immediately needing to dive into a USAA/NFAA membership. Support them striving for excellence (or just fun!) even with equipment that isn't on the shiny catalog cover. Removing the confusion of equipment can be a huge help.

-T


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

So what you are saying is that even though people are fleeing Illinois in droves, they are going there for archery?



tkaap said:


> limbwalker said:
> 
> 
> > "Bringing more diversity into WA events"
> ...


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

Braveheart said:


> So what you are saying is that even though people are fleeing Illinois in droves, they are going there for archery?


Either folks will stay for the archery, or we'll hope to send them on their way bearing a love of archery in their hearts. :wink:


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Unfortunately, I know all to well that it will be the second thing you mentioned. After paying taxes in Illinois, you would be very lucky to have two nickels to rub together. Very unfortunate indeed.



tkaap said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > So what you are saying is that even though people are fleeing Illinois in droves, they are going there for archery?
> ...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

RMBX10 said:


> And that's why the sport is seen by the outside as a bunch of "******* hunters."


Correct.

And it's been proven that people are more likely to try things when they see people who look like them, doing those things. That is why it is important to encourage people of a variety of backgrounds to try archery and not just act like it's not an issue. It is an issue as the sport currently looks like a part of the population that is getting smaller and smaller as a percent of the whole population. That doesn't bode well for the sport. If the participants in the sport don't start looking like the greater population as a whole, then the sport will not grow in the future. That's just simple math and human behavior. The sport can choose to ignore it at it's own peril.

I for one come from a background where participating in something like USArchery events was just not even feasible from a financial standpoint. I also come from some very diverse neighborhoods and I learned to appreciate and enjoy diversity. I would love it if our sport was more diverse. It would make attending tournaments a lot more interesting IMO and I would use those events as an opportunity to learn from different perspectives during all that time we spend behind the line.

I wish we had more indigenous people in our sport, for example. I have never understood why we don't to be honest.


----------



## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Most of the archers in my area started out as hunters. Some began shooting local events or a league and a good percentage never even gave a thought to nationals. 
Pros and cons is more about culture than it is about race or national origin. Olympic sport pursued as a goal has a heavy price tag, time, coaching, equipment, travel expenses making participation a limited experience for the few. I guess some see that as an elitist endeavor and really it is. The bias we’re talking about isn’t about anything other than having or not having the means to play. 
If you drive a Chevy and the people on knob hill drive a Bentley or your children go to State college but their friends go to a top rated Ivy League university, that’s life.
Asked my son if he wanted to shoot today, “not today I’m going fishing”... a choices is not an exclusions 
Nick


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The way to get a more diverse group of participants at the bigger events is quite simple.... *get them to show up *and perform at the local level. If a person of color starts winning at local levels, they'll surely find their way to the bigger stage.


What exactly do you think we're discussing here?


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

For one, people need to stop making clubs so exclusive at the local level. In the almost 10 years I've been doing this and participating in JOAD clubs, I've seen so many good things turn bad when a coach that thinks too highly of themselves breaks away and starts "elite" or "high performance" teams. What goes on in these supposedly higher caliber teams is not so much advanced archery, but more exclusiveness, bullying/hazing, cult like behavior, greed, and a lot of back handed politics. While on one of these teams, I was met with belittlement when I refused to drop thousands of my own dollars on the latest greatest equipment. I was accused of "not being a team player" when I didn't blow all my vacation time for the year to go to every single USAT event. Shame on me for not being a spoiled home school kid who's parents throw money at everything endlessly I guess? The financial hurdle to be competitive in this sport mixed with the inflated egos of some clubs is a recipe for inclusion and deterring minorities.

If I was a running a club. I would model it after competitive high school volleyball. Everyone in the club pays into the pot for the year and that pot pays to take everyone to tournaments. Kids travel as a group to events with a few parent and coach chaperones to monitor. Saves on hotel expenses, food, and travel. Everyone is included and everyone gets to go, no matter your financial standing or background. I don't know why doing it that way is such a foreign concept in archery.


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

rjbishop said:


> stop making clubs so inclusive at the local level





rjbishop said:


> but more inclusiveness, bullying/hazing, cult like behavior, greed, and a lot of back handed politics.


Is _inclusive_ the word you really intended to use there? It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your message.

-T


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

tkaap said:


> Is _inclusive_ the word you really intended to use there? It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your message.
> 
> -T


I guess exclusiveness would be the correct term, sorry, had them backwards. I just mean to say you have to fit their strict requirements to be on the team and anyone who cant is ostracized.


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Both racial and economic diversity. How do we do it?
> 
> How have you done it, if you have?
> 
> What I see when I attend USArchery Nationals is predominately white upper middle class families. What can we do to make the sport more accessible and inclusive?





limbwalker said:


> What exactly do you think we're discussing here?


I thought your original post was asking how to get a more diverse group to National and larger events......


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I think anybody who works hard enough, and practices enough, can beat anybody who feels they are "exclusive ". If they have an "exclusive" club, personally it would only drive me to work harder and leave them in the dirt even at only a local level. That is why it should be made more affordable for lower income people to be able to do National Tourneys. Believe me, the elitists will always have their "circles" and they will do anything to keep anybody from beating them. Race doesn't matter. Its that way with anything. The ones with the money do not like to be beat and they will use that money to make sure they do not get beat no matter what color you are. Hard work and practice is the only way to show them you are good enough. You don't have to go to a National tourney to do that. Go to a local "sanctioned" tourney and beat em with a record. They can't take that away from you unless they put in the time. Never give up



rjbishop said:


> tkaap said:
> 
> 
> > Is _inclusive_ the word you really intended to use there? It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your message.
> ...


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Braveheart said:


> I this anybody who works hard enough, and practices enough, can beat anybody who feels they are "exclusive ". If they have an "exclusive" club, personally it would only drive me to work harder and leave them in the dirt even at only a local level. That is why it should be made more affordable for lower income people to be able to do National Tourneys. Believe me, the elitists will always have their "circles" and they will do anything to keep anybody from beating them. Race doesn't matter. Its that way with anything. The ones with the money do not like to be beat and they will use that money to make sure they do not get beat no matter what color you are. Hard work and practice is the only way to show them you are good enough. You don't have to go to a National tourney to do that. Go to a local "sanctioned" tourney and beat em with a record. They can't take that away from you unless they put in the time


Fair enough but at the JOAD level, that kind of spirit doesnt always occur in young kids. These cult like clubs lead to a lot of discouragement, hurt feelings, and people quitting the sport all together. I've even seen them explode into law suites before. The only way to get more POC in the sport is to prohibit these exclusive environments.


----------



## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

rjbishop said:


> I guess exclusiveness would be the correct term, sorry, had them backwards. I just mean to say you have to fit their strict requirements to be on the team and anyone who cant is ostracized.


Yeah, I assumed that's what you meant, but I wanted to ask in case there was a part of it I was missing.


In my book (and echoing your message) there are only two reasons to exclude someone: safety and sportsmanship. If folks can't manage one of those two, then they get to examine the outside of the door. But everyone else can stay and we'll find a way to show them a fun day.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> And it's been proven that people are more likely to try things when they see people who look like them, doing those things.


I believe this is the single biggest obstacle we have in this matter. 

I’m sure there have been issues of exclusion based on racial, cultural, gender, age, and other factors, that have caused people to leave the sport, but the biggest barriers are in getting people from all walks of life to enter in the first place. 

I’m also sure many people have taken a look at Archery, but don’t see the role models that appeal to them. Golf went through this when Tiger Woods came on the pro scene. I suspect that Archery might experience a similar rise in popularity among groups who don’t currently participate in comparable numbers, should a potential role model make an appearance on the podium some day. 

Unfortunately, one cannot manufacture a made-to-order role model.


----------



## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Archery is pretty diverse on the international level. Maybe better television coverage or high level sponsorship at the the top level would drive awareness.

I know my favorite batista was blown away to find out that a fellow Columbian was one of the top compound shooters in the world.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

People that look like them? How many North Americans are on the Korean team. How many little kids of all races wanted to be like Michael Jorden, Walter Peyton, Babe Ruth and on and on? Nope I do not buy into that one. Everybody wanted to "be like them" and it had nothing to do with the way they look. They wanted to be a great player like them. Do I want to "look like" the best archers? No, but I sure want to shoot like them! Sorry



Stash said:


> limbwalker said:
> 
> 
> > And it's been proven that people are more likely to try things when they see people who look like them, doing those things.
> ...


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Target archery requires 1) hard work, and 2) humility, and it's expensive (to somebody). That weeds out most people no matter what subject you're talking about. 

That more diverse types of people aren't curious to check it out and see what it's all about isn't, imo, 'on the archery community'. 
Target archers are a generous welcoming bunch. People that come are welcome.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Target archery requires 1) hard work, and 2) humility, and it's expensive (to somebody). That weeds out most people no matter what subject you're talking about.
> 
> That more diverse types of people aren't curious to check it out and see what it's all about isn't, imo, 'on the archery community'.
> Target archers are a generous welcoming bunch. People that come are welcome.


That's the "bare minimum" Larry. More can be done, and if someone really cares about participation in the sport reflecting the real diversity of our nation, because it needs to in order for the sport to survive, then that's not enough.


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Through the Warrior Transition Battalion at Ft. Sam, we have introduced many troops of all races to archery. About half want to hunt. Some we helped train in recurve and they went to the Invictus Games. My experience in 3D shows many minorities are there as primarily hunters. The practical side of archery appeals to more people...having a longer hunting season and getting to “bring home the bacon”.

I don’t want to go all CHAZ or Woke...destruction lies there. If the colleges would have decent scholarships like Columbia gave Alyssa Poscion, that would help . I think most of their team was from Pacific oriented countries. University of Arizona and Texas A&M could recruit for their teams with more money. Hell, TAMU doesn’t even brag on their 15 Nat’l. Championships. Don’t really push it on campus.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=257...r_video&notif_id=1591793649882834&ref=m_notif


limbwalker said:


> lksseven said:
> 
> 
> > Target archery requires 1) hard work, and 2) humility, and it's expensive (to somebody). That weeds out most people no matter what subject you're talking about.
> ...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tigersdad said:


> Through the Warrior Transition Battalion at Ft. Sam, we have introduced many troops of all races to archery. About half want to hunt. Some we helped train in recurve and they went to the Invictus Games. My experience in 3D shows many minorities are there as primarily hunters. The practical side of archery appeals to more people...having a longer hunting season and getting to “bring home the bacon”.
> 
> I don’t want to go all CHAZ or Woke...destruction lies there. If the colleges would have decent scholarships like Columbia gave Alyssa Poscion, that would help . I think most of their team was from Pacific oriented countries. University of Arizona and Texas A&M could recruit for their teams with more money. Hell, TAMU doesn’t even brag on their 15 Nat’l. Championships. Don’t really push it on campus.


Steve, now you made me go and look up what CHAZ means. Never heard of it.

And if you think TAMU doesn't brag on their titles, I got news for you. LOL And I think they claim 19 or 20 by now. Like the Harlem Globetrotters of college archery.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Interesting to see all these caucasian men saying there isn't a problem with diversity. Glad to know they've decided its not a problem.
Like hunters saying the association of hunting and archery in North America isn't a problem when clearly it holds the sport back compared to places where it's not associated.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Why does it always have to be about race? I have never witnessed any person expelled from any achery event because of their race. The more you bring it up, the more divisive things get. I do not believe for one minute this "race" baiting is the problem. I do however believe it has everything to do with funding. If you are feeling so "guilty" figure out how to fund low income archers of all colors to be able to compete. Let the cream rise to the top, whatever color it is.
If I want to hear what a bad person I am because of the color of my skin, i can turn on any news channel nowadays. It would be nice to let "archerytalk" be about archery talk. Oh well



grantmac said:


> Interesting to see all these caucasian men saying there isn't a problem with diversity. Glad to know they've decided its not a problem.
> Like hunters saying the association of hunting and archery in North America isn't a problem when clearly it holds the sport back compared to places where it's not associated.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

grantmac said:


> Interesting to see all these caucasian men saying there isn't a problem with diversity. Glad to know they've decided its not a problem.
> Like hunters saying the association of hunting and archery in North America isn't a problem when clearly it holds the sport back compared to places where it's not associated.


yup.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Braveheart said:


> Why does it always have to be about race? I have never witnessed any person expelled from any achery event because of their race. The more you bring it up, the more divisive things get. I do not believe for one minute this "race" baiting is the problem. I do however believe it has everything to do with funding. If you are feeling so "guilty" figure out how to fund low income archers of all colors to be able to compete. Let the cream rise to the top, whatever color it is.
> If I want to hear what a bad person I am because of the color of my skin, i can turn on any news channel nowadays. It would be nice to let "archerytalk" be about archery talk. Oh well


BH, you are making a lot of points. Both for yourself, and for the issue we're discussing. 

You can be pro-diversity and not against anyone. It's possible to be both. Like Tom Barker used to say, it's not a zero-sum game. This isn't pie. 

Nobody is saying you are a bad person. Nobody is feeling guilty either. But if the cream ain't in the jar, it ain't ever gonna rise to the top my friend. We gotta figure out how to get it in the jar first. 

I want my favorite sport to reflect the face of America. That's my prayer for the sport of archery. Because when it finally does, the sport will be okay and it will prosper.


----------



## Davos5.7 (Jul 27, 2016)

grantmac said:


> Although the hobby isn't expensive compared to others, competing in it definitely is. Plus there really isn't much hope of significantly changing socioeconomic class via success in archery, other sports have that at a possibility remote though it is.


I think that is the root of the issue. You can get scholarships to carry you through college with many other sports.

I can say though, recreational is simply inviting people to go out with you and enjoy the sport. I introduce many new shooters with low poundage recurves and I take them stump shooting in the woods.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Wow, I am speechless. You asked the question so what is your answer?



limbwalker said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it always have to be about race? I have never witnessed any person expelled from any achery event because of their race. The more you bring it up, the more divisive things get. I do not believe for one minute this "race" baiting is the problem. I do however believe it has everything to do with funding. If you are feeling so "guilty" figure out how to fund low income archers of all colors to be able to compete. Let the cream rise to the top, whatever color it is.
> ...


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Why is it that only Caucasian men being specifically mentioned? I’m a round eyed Asian here staring at my phone screen, typing away and I don’t see caucasians/blacks/Hispanics etc. All I see are words. I’d like to know why non-binary attack helicopters are being excluded from the conversation.


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, how many people here are familiar with the concept of “soft bigotry of low expectations”?


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I would say we are not the only sport with problems i guess?

https://football.realgm.com/wiretap...cent-Of-NFL-Players-Fan-Base-83-Percent-White


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA



limbwalker said:


> grantmac said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting to see all these caucasian men saying there isn't a problem with diversity. Glad to know they've decided its not a problem.
> ...





theminoritydude said:


> Why is it that only Caucasian men being specifically mentioned? I’m a round eyed Asian here staring at my phone screen, typing away and I don’t see caucasians/blacks/Hispanics etc. All I see are words. I’d like to know why non-binary attack helicopters are being excluded from the conversation.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Exactly my point. It is not about race. It is an expensive sport. You have to have lots of money to compete Nationally in "required" tourneys. Not about race.



theminoritydude said:


> Why is it that only Caucasian men being specifically mentioned? I’m a round eyed Asian here staring at my phone screen, typing away and I don’t see caucasians/blacks/Hispanics etc. All I see are words. I’d like to know why non-binary attack helicopters are being excluded from the conversation.


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Seriously, like I said earlier it's an economic problem not a race problem. When there's a basketball court, baseball field, and football field in even the poorest neighborhoods, why would they drive or take a bus across town to spend money on a sport with no monetary or scholarship related future? There's a basketball court down the street. If I wasn't involved in archery and saw sports as a means to a scholarship, which I think most parents do, why would you send the kid to go shoot the moneypit of bows and arrows instead of play for the football team with their classmates with a future of a possible scholarship? I don't like that sports these days are all about the scholarship and the $$$ but that's just how it is currently. Your best bet is Homeschooled kids who cannot participate in UIL activities. I know that I probably wouldn't have kept with archery if I was eyeing a baseball scholarship.

If you want more kids of the "face of america", then you need to vastly increase the amount of scholarship money, which I don't think anyone in this thread can do. The Olympics don't put a kid through college, especially not if they have to pay to go to X number of USAT's, Nationals, and State matches a year. I would be happy to have those "faces of america" show up and shoot with us, I'd be more than happy to coach them, but unless you change the economic incentives... good luck. 

Something we actually *can* do is increase the amount of adult archers by having clubs with "try archery" events and such targeted at adults more so than kids. I'd be interested in official metrics, but I'd wager adults who join archery in adulthood are almost an order of magnitude more likely to stay shooting archery than a kid who got into it at 12.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

In America, economic problems and race problems are inextricably linked.


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> In America, economic problems and race problems are inextricably linked.


Not just in America. Not just race either. But when certain demographics are disproportionately represented amongst our poorest these discussions will be linked. I think it is very difficult to solve the race problem without solving the economic problem. Solving the economic problem, may however lead to solving the race problem (there are cultural issues too).

In terms of archery, I agree with Rylando’s comments. In Australia, the college scholarships are not really a thing to the same extent (except where our athletes go to the US). However, if you look at our professional sports such as Cricket and AFL, the one with expensive equipment requirements is extremely ‘white’, the one where you need a ball, a pair of boots and somewhere to play is vastly more multi-cultural...


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> In America, economic problems and race problems are inextricably linked.


I would have to agree to disagree on that, but what would be your solution to this problem John? Do you see a way to involve more folks into target archery? There's room for so few to make a living currently. The best deal on scholarships and cash is S3DA and the ASA shoots, and if you think there's a problem with the perception of target archery being rednecky, good luck with 3D archery. I don't know what A&M offers for archery scholarships, but I am lead to believe it is not much if any money, which I don't think is their archery faculties fault.

Our 4H program supplies bows and instructors to kids, shouts it out at the schools, we have a fairly well rounded turnout of folks middle class and lower. The main reason kids don't continue is UIL sports, and that you have to convince mom and dad to buy a bow. Short of providing a prepaid uber card/bus directly to archery ranges, and short of handing out free bows, how are we supposed to include the "faces of america"? Archery is a pretty damn inclusive sport, every coach and range owner I know of is just happy to have anyone come shoot.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Well said. I have enjoyed meeting and learning all forms of archery. We were welcomed and actually encouraged by hunters to do 3D and had fun. To me they were just people who taught us how to have fun in archery. 



Rylando said:


> limbwalker said:
> 
> 
> > In America, economic problems and race problems are inextricably linked.
> ...


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Braveheart said:


> Well said. I have enjoyed meeting and learning all forms of archery. We were welcomed and actually encouraged by hunters to do 3D and had fun. To me they were just people who taught us how to have fun in archery.


I agree with you. I am glad to teach and shoot with anyone of any background. If you respect the range rules and appreciate the fact that people are giving you knowledge and help (if they are of course), you're welcome on any range I am apart of. I think the 3D ******* stigma should be shot down. They sure run a easier to deal with organizing body than USAA these days.


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

So, as far as race diversity, are we saying we need 13% black archers, 60% Caucasian archers or 77% white/white Hispanics or non white Latinos at 18% and Asian at 6% and Indigenous at 1.3% ? To reflect the current racial makeup of these United States? This way is madness. A disaster we have seen in hiring mandates where quality/skill are non the main criteria. 

We also are not talking about the safety issue with archery compared to the basketball court or baseball field down the street. Liability caused San Antonio to ban archery in the parks over 20 years ago and Texas state parks also prohibit archery in the parks. That alone means it’s hard to find a place where a wannabe archer can learn. Most cities and HOAs forbid archery unless you live on 2 acres. 
When a city can fund a Public archery venue, then you will see more people come to archery.


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I’ll volunteer to make up for that 60%.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

My thoughts on this are influenced by both the advantage and disadvantage of not seeing, or even being aware of, race, ethnicity, and/or economic challenges at the club or on the shooting line... First, as the question seems to be diversity at the WA level I'll start there, and I just can't imagine being able to wave a magic wand and bibbidi bobbidi boo the line is more diverse, nor can this be done at the USArchery, or any regional/national competition level... So, IMO the change needs to come from the grass roots, with programs that introduce the populations you're trying to target as youth. Rhetorically, how many school districts in lower income neighborhoods have something like the NASP program... Yet are there not grant programs, possible local business donations, and resources [i.e. people] willing to put the work in to get these programs started? How many JOAD coaches donate their time, and/or seek out deals with clubs and ranges for donated time so the costs to participate aren't so high? How many of our clubs donate time and materials, and work with local cities, to put up ranges in parks that are free to the public? 

Okay, our club is probably far from being the model of diversity, it's Cheyenne after all, butwhat we do for the kids and the community is pretty extensive- Our JOAD program is all volunteers, and the program has an agreement with the club for free range time and targets... I think the cost is something like $10; might be for the month but it may be for the season; plus those fees are waived if the student [or their family] is a club member [$50 a year]... The kids are also encouraged to shoot our league events, which are open to the public, for free. I've talked to other JOAD coaches whose programs pay the coach, pay for the targets, pay for the range time through a shop... Costing the students several times what we cost for a season per month, and up into the hundreds for their seasons. 

During the summer we bring in groups of kids for different youth programs- again free range time, use of equipment, and all run by volunteers. The club helps maintain a field course at the local state park, and there is a community park in town with a few straw bales with skins ranging formprobably 10 to 40 yds. 

For the slightly older, our community college has [or at least used to have as I haven't been there in a while], an archery PE activity class... Whatever it costs for a 1 sem/hr through the school for lessons five days a week through the term. 

A lot of comments on here about competitions, but IDK, when we were 8y/o did we pick up a football or baseball or soccer ball because of college scholarships or as a road to fame and glory... Was our first thought during our first draw of the string "Olympics..." Or was it for the sport; for the "that's cool" factor? Then, the changes sought by this thread question won't come overnight, it will be over generations... How many of us tried a sport, any sports, because of dad??? How many of us didn't try football or baseball because our first experience was throwing around a ball with a parental figure... 

Will better youth involvement change the face of world archery in the long run??? Maybe and maybe not; You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink, but also a horse can't drink if it isn't shown the water, and none of it matters if you don't have horses... You can't force world-level competition out of anyone, but you won't get any at that level if you don't have a path for them to follow, and it's all moot if you don't bring in students of the game at the grass roots level. In my experience once the kids get to picking up the bow, archers are very accommodating and helpful regardless of status, the challenge lies in getting the kids interested in picking up the bow in the first place. 

Not related to diversity as it has been defined herein, but a similar situation holds true in V.I. archery... Nearly 10% of the US population self-reports having vision issues that affects their daily lives... Currently 3 internationally classified low vision/blind archers nation wide. Sure there are more VIs out there shooting, but if you want to look at it from a WA level- the US has three... And while most of the time I feel welcome at events, truth is there are very few WA/USArchery events that include the VI category, and there are no such categories specifically within NFAA/IFAA or any of the other governing bodies.... I shoot because I love to shoot, and that's the way it has to be because any state shoot I enter, if I shoot at LAS or Vegas, the best I could hope for is dead last in the standings... While I've felt for the most part welcome everywhere I've shot, it's ironically the small country of Andorra who has been the most welcoming for VI archers, with an outstanding shoot held every year just for us VIs... We have para worlds every two years; last go round the VI finals were held on the Wednesday before closing ceramonies and no WA broadcast coverage the other paras enjoyed... Olympics??? PFFT yeah right- includes all the para archery categories except VIs; just a bit of my taste of not having the opportunities of others, and possible reasons why we don't enjoy more VIs in the sport at a visable level here in the US. 

Personal rant over, and to conclude by including my opinion that, if you want to see change at the top, you have to change the foundation at the bottom. Yes the cream will rise to teh top if there is cream in the jar, but it will never happen if you don't milk the cow first...


----------



## nickle (Sep 25, 2017)

birds of a feather....


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Good post.



tigersdad said:


> So, as far as race diversity, are we saying we need 13% black archers, 60% Caucasian archers or 77% white/white Hispanics or non white Latinos at 18% and Asian at 6% and Indigenous at 1.3% ? To reflect the current racial makeup of these United States? This way is madness. A disaster we have seen in hiring mandates where quality/skill are non the main criteria.
> 
> We also are not talking about the safety issue with archery compared to the basketball court or baseball field down the street. Liability caused San Antonio to ban archery in the parks over 20 years ago and Texas state parks also prohibit archery in the parks. That alone means it’s hard to find a place where a wannabe archer can learn. Most cities and HOAs forbid archery unless you live on 2 acres.
> When a city can fund a Public archery venue, then you will see more people come to archery.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rylando said:


> I would have to agree to disagree on that...


I don't think you will ever understand how different our upbringings were. Race and economics are inextricably linked in America, and there have been countless studies to prove this. But that's not what I'm here to talk about.

Steve, I think that for the good of the sport, we would want to work toward the shooting line more closely resembling America. Because that will help ensure that our sport continues to grow. Knowing the figures and looking at the typical shooting line today should concern anyone in a leadership position in the sport of target archery. Honestly, I'm not sure why the equipment manufacturers haven't already seen this. It won't be long before that 60% is 50%, and then 40% and so on.


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

John, yes, current demographics with birth rate and migration show decreasing white majority population for the country as a whole. Remember a decade ago when TIME magazine had a cover “photo” of the future American ? Race blending is a fact of life and future folks may all end up “mocha”. I don’t really care. 
I do care that Without places to play the archery participation will stay low in big and small towns. Vendors here in San Antonio talk about how the city is big enough to have lots of archers and it does but there is no real organized venue and range and advertising to sustain a good profit margin. We have talked a lot with the San Antonio sports foundation to get the Alamo Dome to have a permanent indoor and outdoor range. Has to be city funded and run. Lots of hurdles there. When a city and its mouthpieces...politicians...want something to happen, it usually does.


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

The problem is a combination of economic and exposure. White people are more likely exposed to archery at camps, schools, scouting, or through hunting. All of these have economic reasons that they have not included blacks(like school funding) or cultural differences (hunting is less common among blacks for several reasons). The tendency to be excluded and not being willing to insert themselves for good reasons perpetuates the difference. It is unfortunate and is not good for the sport nor for society. We should be making the effort to make it more accessible to all. We have lived with segregation out of satisfaction with the status quo, however, and this is as characteristic of archery as any sport. Like anything one is to excel at, it requires getting out of your comfort zone and challenging yourself. It just has not been important to us.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://football.realgm.com/wiretap...cent-Of-NFL-Players-Fan-Base-83-Percent-White


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA





lcaillo said:


> The problem is a combination of economic and exposure. White people are more likely exposed to archery at camps, schools, scouting, or through hunting. All of these have economic reasons that they have not included blacks(like school funding) or cultural differences (hunting is less common among blacks for several reasons). The tendency to be excluded and not being willing to insert themselves for good reasons perpetuates the difference. It is unfortunate and is not good for the sport nor for society.  We should be making the effort to make it more accessible to all. We have lived with segregation out of satisfaction with the status quo, however, and this is as characteristic of archery as any sport. Like anything one is to excel at, it requires getting out of your comfort zone and challenging yourself. It just has not been important to us.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+24:16&version=ESV


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Archery is prohibitively expensive for most, even at a fundamental level. And, even for those for whom it's not too expensive, it's too hard for most of them to be interested or stay interested. Macro % motivations are a waste of time for something that is so individually dependent. And to my mind, Vittorio's anecdote seems to debunk the inherent 'racism' vein that fuels some narratives. And by the way, my 'color' in no way makes me inherently racist or paternalistic - my 'mind' determines those things, and my mind is neither. Any flippant accusations to the contrary are lazy and droll.

Lots of parallels to tennis. Big popularity boost (Chris Everett, Jimmy Connors, McEnroe, Navratolova for tennis; Hunger Games, Lord of the Rings for archery) that energized the middle masses. 

Public tennis courts were built everywhere - big cities, small cities, small towns. And for some number of years through the late 70s and early/mid 80s, courts were packed and busy. Then .... not so much. and for the last 20 years, back to the 'mean' - 98% of tennis courts empty all the time. But tennis is still tennis, it's just returned to its own natural level of participation. 

With tennis, even with all percentages having access due to publicly funded courts everywhere, individuals still had to get off the couch, go buy a $15 racket and $6 can of balls, and go meet a friend to 'knock the ball around and see if they liked it'. Most didn't/won't get off the couch (regardless of race or religion) 

The barriers to archery are more significant. Expense of equipment, necessity to basic safety/technique instruction, constant need for monitoring, etc. A big non-starter for most. For 10 kids to play basketball at the public outdoor court requires a $12 basketball, total expense $12. Soccer is the same thing. And baseball isn't any longer a good egalitarian example. But the expense to fund 10 people shooting arrows in a public access facility? Prohibitively more expensive, plus the need for personal and enforced discipline and focus in order to participate. I've said this before, 99% of all vcr's ever put into operation are still blinking "12:00".

But, back to the main thrust of the original premise - how to increase participation by wider swath of the population - it sure won't be solved by USA Archery. USAA brain trust is totally hostage to their legal team who is feverishly working to make participation as difficult and burdensome as possible.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Agreed



lksseven said:


> Archery is prohibitively expensive for most, even at a fundamental level. And, even for those for whom it's not too expensive, it's too hard for most of them to be interested or stay interested. Macro % motivations are a waste of time for something that is so individually dependent. And to my mind, Vittorio's anecdote seems to debunk the inherent 'racism' vein that fuels some narratives. And by the way, my 'color' in no way makes me inherently racist or paternalistic - my 'mind' determines those things, and my mind is neither. Any flippant accusations to the contrary are lazy and droll.
> 
> Lots of parallels to tennis. Big popularity boost (Chris Everett, Jimmy Connors, McEnroe, Navratolova for tennis; Hunger Games, Lord of the Rings for archery) that energized the middle masses.
> 
> ...


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

What is your point, Braveheart. Use your words.


----------



## sightcaster (Aug 15, 2015)

So if I am running a club and I have a group of people kids and adults from families that are financially unstable and are are barley getting by. 
Out of this group 10 are white, 8 are African Americans, 12 Hispanics, 7 Asian, and 5 others of mixed or other race. 
I have enough equipment to completely outfit 10 archers and provide free transportation and entry fees to tournaments. 
What are the options to make it fair? Who gets to stay and who will probably go home when they find out what this sport costs?

One thing I learned long ago is that if you live life being judgmental of people who have more than you your life will be miserable. You will sit and spin your wheels and get nowhere. Wealth does not know race. There are very wealthy people of all races in this country. There are very poor people of every race in this country.
Attitude and drive to excel also has no race and those two things are the most important. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is look in the mirror and say this is all on me. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Not a World Archery or even USA Archery event, but I had an interesting experience once.

When I was working in Washington DC and living in Virginia, I was invited to attend an "International Round" event at a park in northern Maryland, just outside the boundary of the District. International round is ten targets (usually repeated to form a Vee shape) with the distances from 20 yards to 65 yards.

So I drove up on that morning and found people registering and getting ready for the tournament, with good attendance sufficient to fill the targets. It was about the first time in my life I found myself vastly in the minority racially. 

We had a great time, all had fun, and the fellow who invited me (name draws a blank today, will probably pop to the front of my head in about an hour when I quit focusing) still shares the story with me when we meet at other events.

I don't know what type of seed and care and effort was needed to get that club going and establish their facility and plan their events, but it was a great part of the community.


----------



## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

I hope that one of the long-range impacts of the National Archery in the Schools Program is to bring more diversity to the sport of archery. When every student is a school received beginning archery lessons, it broadens the base of the sport. Even those who do not continue to practice and compete beyond their school years will have more knowledge of the sport. They will know that it is more than just hunting, that it can be pursued by people of any size, gender, physical ability or despite impediments. When there is a request to add an archery range to a city park or in a nature area, they will receive the request positively.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Exactly. Hard work, and put your nose to the grindstone.



sightcaster said:


> So if I am running a club and I have a group of people kids and adults from families that are financially unstable and are are barley getting by.
> Out of this group 10 are white, 8 are African Americans, 12 Hispanics, 7 Asian, and 5 others of mixed or other race.
> I have enough equipment to completely outfit 10 archers and provide free transportation and entry fees to tournaments.
> What are the options to make it fair? Who gets to stay and who will probably go home when they find out what this sport costs?
> ...


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I agree with the post. What do you want people to do? Spend the limited time they have between working to make ends meet to drive outside their communities to help people that you somehow have this deep guilt about? Maybe usarchery should set up archery ranges at military bases and get people involved with the sport. They should have a pretty diverse population and they definitely know about safety. To expect people barely making it themselves to do something to make you feel good is not the answer and frankly people are sick of the guilt thing being laid on them for something they never did. Americans come in all packages, and I have never seen anybody treated poorly or refused archery instruction. 
I have been working since I was 13. Probably illegal nowadays. But that is what you did when you wanted something.
I have learned that people who say they want to help are only doing it to pat themselves on the back and half the time they are all talk. If anybody wants anything no matter what color you are, you are gonna have to work for it. That is just life
Usarchery doesn't make it easy or affordable to be a coach either. They always got their hands out. Gotta keep paying. Doesnt seem like they are part of the solution either, does it?



lcaillo said:


> What is your point, Braveheart. Use your words.


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Braveheart said:


> I have never seen anybody treated poorly or refused archery instruction.


Unfortunately I have. Went to a tournament a while back where a 9 year old black girl was disqualified for wearing "yoga pants". In reality, they were just black dress pants that lacked pockets. Her parents even offered to drive down to the nearest store and buy the proper pants for her so she could shoot but the event organizers declined and said it was a done deal. What was interesting is dozens of other girls were allowed to shoot in actual yoga pants for the longest time, but Lord and behold the black girl is the first to get called on the carpet for it. So what we got was a 9 year old leaving their first shoot ever in tears and her fuming parents refusing to ever come back, and they didn't. I never saw them ever again. Their perception of what the archery community is like is likely very poor now. 

I get the whole "don't blame us for the father's sins" mentality, but pretending like the elephant in the room doesn't exist because you personally are not looking at it doesn't make it any less real. Discrimination exists in all sports and we should be doing more to snuff it out and promote minority participation.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

They could have reported it to Usarchery. Why would you judge a whole community for the actions of a few? 



rjbishop said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > I have never seen anybody treated poorly or refused archery instruction.
> ...


----------



## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

rjbishop said:


> Unfortunately I have. Went to a tournament a while back where a 9 year old black girl was disqualified for wearing "yoga pants". In reality, they were just black dress pants that lacked pockets. Her parents even offered to drive down to the nearest store and buy the proper pants for her so she could shoot but the event organizers declined and said it was a done deal. What was interesting is dozens of other girls were allowed to shoot in actual yoga pants for the longest time, but Lord and behold the black girl is the first to get called on the carpet for it. So what we got was a 9 year old leaving their first shoot ever in tears and her fuming parents refusing to ever come back, and they didn't. I never saw them ever again. Their perception of what the archery community is like is likely very poor now.
> 
> I get the whole "don't blame us for the father's sins" mentality, but pretending like the elephant in the room doesn't exist because you personally are not looking at it doesn't make it any less real. Discrimination exists in all sports and we should be doing more to snuff it out and promote minority participation.


That is a sad story, can't imagine what the parents tho't and the parents of all the girls that got by with it. I can understand some kind of dress code but that was over the top. Someone should have called the organizers out on that one and reported them to WA if it was a scheduled event.. And worse the parents agreed to correct any infraction and the org refused it. Along with suckers there are arsewipes born every minute....


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Braveheart said:


> They could have reported it to Usarchery. Why would you judge a whole community for the actions of a few?


They did from what I heard, unsure what the outcome was. And no, you shouldn't judge a whole community by the actions of a few, but the point is that discrimination is does in fact exist everywhere and there's nothing wrong with campaigning to get more minorities into the sport.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Well good luck to you.



rjbishop said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > They could have reported it to Usarchery. Why would you judge a whole community for the actions of a few?
> ...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Braveheart is working hard on this topic...

Braveheart, if you don't think there is a need for change, then just say so man, and move on. No need to spam the thread to try and redirect the discussion.

The future of the sport of target archery, like so many other things, will depend on it's ability to stay relevant. Taking steps to make sure it's accessible to everyone and that there are role models in the sport that reflect the face of America, is one way to ensure it's future. That is my point here. And my question to the members is, what are those steps. 

I was an economically disadvantaged youth in a large family with a single mom and a very unstable childhood. Archery in the back yard was easy and affordable. In fact it was a welcome escape for me. But it wasn't until I was in my 30's that I could even think about affording a competitive target bow. And that was only after I successfully navigated college and landed a good job, in part because I had the advantage of being born white. I also looked at the sport and saw a lot of role models who looked like me, so that made it easy to see myself competing in the sport. 

How do we reach the kids who don't see themselves in the sport? There are programs that are doing that, but I think we need more or we risk having the sport become an exclusive playground for the elite and then it will eventually die.

If you don't agree this is a problem, them do us both a favor and just keep scrolling. I would like to hear from those who are tackling this issue head-on, and succeeding.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I have two ranges in town, on in the growth suburbs, and the main range in a not great part of town just off the fringe of downtown Tulsa. Anyone who has had a first lesson (for safety and insurance reasons) can join the club and get 24/7 access to the main range and weekday access to the suburb range for $35/month (air conditioned, bathroom, wifi, video of your shot on delayed stream, youtube music capable with great speakers, all range equipment (many range bows of different weight and configurations, arrows, arm guards, tabs, target faces, etc). Much of the time it's sparsely attended, so it's like having their own private range to come train, for $35/month.
I teach a class for several months every year for handicapped people interested in archery as an activity. I always invite all of the class weekly attendees to join the club and come pursue the sport year round. One of them, Pam, did join. She is a physically challenged (some structural weakness in one of her shoulders and one of her legs) lady who is 60, is 'mostly' confined to a wheel chair. She rides her motorized wheelchair through 6 city blocks of sidewalks to come shoot at the range twice a week (it's 90degrees here the last couple weeks). Half the club members (all able bodied) don't come down to shoot once a month. I try hard not to be prejudiced against the lukewarm clubbers who never get better and then grouse that they're shooting the same scores as three years ago. Every year I've got white kids coming through, I've got black kids coming through, I've got kids from India, from Canada, adopted kids from Mexico, rich kids from the burbs, kids of Korean, Chinese, Lebanese, Australia. I've got kids from home schooling, public schooling, private schooling. I have a national champion from the burbs. I have a national champ from the boonies who is a Native American female. I have have banners on the building, and Google linked website with all kinds of links to help support the knowledge base of people that are interested in pursuing archery as an individual journey/quest. 

Of each of the 1200+ people who have come through for a lesson(s) , I have no idea what calculus most of them used/encountered to result in their decision to come get a lesson. Like Woody Allen said, 90 of Life is just 'showing up'. I am here. I am open. I am welcoming. Who comes, comes.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Like I said good luck. You are preaching to the choir.. My father left when I was a kid and it was best he did if you get my drift.. I was raised by a single mom. Somehow I survived and thrived without the help of people like you. I do not feel i had it better because I was white. There are bad people everywhere preying on poor kids no matter what their color is. You survive by being strong and taking what life gives you. Funny, last time i checked, archery was becoming more popular as evidenced by the growing numbers of entries in tournaments so i don't see where you are getting the idea it will just shrivel up and die. BTW what is your solution.



limbwalker said:


> Braveheart is working hard on this topic...
> 
> Braveheart, if you don't think there is a need for change, then just say so man, and move on. No need to spam the thread to try and redirect the discussion.
> 
> ...


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I’m getting the feeling that the point of this discussion is about how to give a man a fish every day.

I mean, if someone has all the fish to give, it’s not my place to say whether or not he should give his own fish away. 

What would be interesting to note, is who he chooses to give them to, and why. 

Then we ask ourselves, who’s left to do all the fishing?


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Braveheart said:


> Like I said good luck. You are preaching to the choir.. My father left when I was a kid and it was best he did if you get my drift.. I was raised by a single mom. Somehow I survived and thrived without the help of people like you. I do not feel i had it better because I was white. There are bad people everywhere preying on poor kids no matter what their color is. You survive by being strong and taking what life gives you. Funny, last time i checked, archery was becoming more popular as evidenced by the growing numbers of entries in tournaments so i don't see where you are getting the idea it will just shrivel up and die. BTW what is your solution.


"Surviving" should not be something one has to do in sports. It should be all inclusive with no barriers. That is what we want.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Braveheart is working hard on this topic...
> 
> Braveheart, if you don't think there is a need for change, then just say so man, and move on. No need to spam the thread to try and redirect the discussion.
> 
> ...




I would be interested in hearing about your early years- the youth going out into the back yard and shooting just to escape... Was there a role model involved, be it the first time you picked up a bow, or the first month... How long was it between just flinging arrows for fun and competing and finding the line looked "just like you?" 

I ask because the idea of role modelling has come up several times in this thread, and while I am probably in a minority in my thinking, I feel like this isn't the best approach if the ultimate goal is a social change that grows the sport among minorities... If a youth gets into the sport because "that archer looks like me..." are we not fostering and enforcing the very prejudices we're trying to dispel? If we're saying we need a minority at the top of the ranks to influence the youth to take up the sport, what is the underlying message we're teaching those kids? Would it not be better to promote the sport rather than it's icons, or lack there of? While I admire Janice and Ruben and Mateo for what they can do in the sport, they aren't the reason I drag my bow to the range and put in the hours and the repetitions, it's because I love the sport. I know the Hunger Games and Brave and Rio/Levi/Dudley [sorry, not up on my OR archers besides Brady], but is the staying power the same as someone who takes up the sport because they were simply introduced to it in a introductory program and enjoyed it for it's execution, and not who is at the top of the game... 

Diversity at the top of the game, absolutely, but as a result of ground floor participation and not as a catalyst to increase participation, I just see the risk of promoting the stereotypes and predujices we're trying to overcome. .


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Inclusive with no barriers is one thing. Specifying the composition based on certain narrowly defined criterion is another. Some things are just the way they are at the moment the spotlight is shone on them, because of how or when it started. Being welcoming to all is not the same as insisting that a sub section of society be comprised of the same distribution of constituents as the larger population.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Giving things is never the answer. Quotas only fuel resentment. Hard work and wanting it bad enough is what fosters sucess.



rjbishop said:


> Braveheart said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said good luck. You are preaching to the choir.. My father left when I was a kid and it was best he did if you get my drift.. I was raised by a single mom. Somehow I survived and thrived without the help of people like you. I do not feel i had it better because I was white. There are bad people everywhere preying on poor kids no matter what their color is. You survive by being strong and taking what life gives you. Funny, last time i checked, archery was becoming more popular as evidenced by the growing numbers of entries in tournaments so i don't see where you are getting the idea it will just shrivel up and die. BTW what is your solution.
> ...


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://www.archery360.com/2016/11/02/4-reasons-korea-dominates-archery/


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/getting-paid-shoot/


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://worldarchery.org/news/160684/professional-archery-teams-korea


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

"As for Korea, I am increasingly convinced that the main reason that that nation dominates the sport isn’t the training regime, or the talent identification system, or the professional leagues – it’s the money. In the case of the KAA, something like half the operating budget ultimately comes from Hyundai and its subsidiary Kia Motors. The historical reason for this is that in the early 1980s the authoritarian government leaned on their big corporations to fund Olympic sports – specifically, less popular sports – by giving them tax breaks to do so. This involved Hyundai actually taking over the NGB – thus began the Korean archery machine." (http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/getting-paid-shoot/)

Wow, this is an interesting idea! Giving a large corporation tax breaks to fund sports. I didn't know that Hyundai paid that much of the korean archery machine. And just how much Italy pays out! Imagine if we could have a Ford funded archery team near the same scale as the Hyundai team, that would be awesome, lol!


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Yup



Rylando said:


> "As for Korea, I am increasingly convinced that the main reason that that nation dominates the sport isn’t the training regime, or the talent identification system, or the professional leagues – it’s the money. In the case of the KAA, something like half the operating budget ultimately comes from Hyundai and its subsidiary Kia Motors. The historical reason for this is that in the early 1980s the authoritarian government leaned on their big corporations to fund Olympic sports – specifically, less popular sports – by giving them tax breaks to do so. This involved Hyundai actually taking over the NGB – thus began the Korean archery machine." (http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/getting-paid-shoot/)
> 
> Wow, this is an interesting idea! Giving a large corporation tax breaks to fund sports. I didn't know that Hyundai paid that much of the korean archery machine. And just how much Italy pays out! Imagine if we could have a Ford funded archery team near the same scale as the Hyundai team, that would be awesome, lol!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

wow the backlash. I'm surprised, but maybe I shouldn't be. 

Kelly, it took Jackie Robinson to open up MLB to people of color. When young boys saw him playing, they said to themselves "maybe I can do that too." Like it or not, that's how the brain works.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Now my thread is getting spammed by Braveheart. LOL 

It's important for some people to distract others from this topic. We see it all the time right now.

I ask a simple question about how we can show more representation in our sport, and instead of success stories and ideas, I get... 

"we are doing fine."

"they are welcome, but it's up to them to come"

"you're measuring things wrong"

"the problem is different."

"we don't have a problem"

All clear indications that we still have a long way to go.


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

John did not propose quotas/percentages or any such thing. He said he would like to see a more diverse field, that better reflected the national population. Arguing against this sentiment because you don’t believe in quotas (neither do I) is a disingenuous. You are distorting what he has said in order to have something to argue against.

I agree with the various posters that economics is a factor. Economics affects both access and opportunity. Some ask for solutions. A good point. We have seen in recent weeks that it is easy to protest against a problem. Harder to propose a solution. I don’t think the diversity problem will be solved ‘within archery’. The likes of Larry who provide opportunity are doing their bit but until peoples life circumstances allow time and at least some money to shoot, opportunity on its own is not enough. We must solve the socioeconomic problem.

As in many other aspects of life, solving the economic problem will solve many others. When demographic A has the same health, educational and economic outcomes as demographic B we will to some extent (there will be cultural preferences) see similar distributions of those demographics with regards their life choices.

It should be noted that this will still result in archery being a minority sport (in comparison to other sports). It’s pariticipants will be a small sample of the overall population, and small samples are not always representative.

Braveheart, you are wrong. Just because you did not ‘feel like you had it better for being white’ does not mean that you didn’t. Yes, there are people of all races doing it tough and of course being white does not guarantee success, wealth or happiness. But on a population level, the statistics are overwhelming. You note that you survive by ‘taking what life gives you’, but at the moment life gives more to white people. The opportunities you took are simply more likely to occur for white people. Kudos to you for taking them. Many people do not. But the odds are better for white people (in places like USA, Australia).


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> wow the backlash. I'm surprised, but maybe I shouldn't be.
> 
> Kelly, it took Jackie Robinson to open up MLB to people of color. When young boys saw him playing, they said to themselves "maybe I can do that too." Like it or not, that's how the brain works.



John, as you are well aware, when it comes to competition, archery like golf, is expensive. The kids who watched Tiger in his prime should be hitting the PGA tour now. I don’t get to watch too much golf these days but it still looks pretty white out there. I think this is the money/access issue.

I was writing my other post when you wrote this, but in short I’m not sure we can fix that within the sport (unless as someone suggested we get massive corporate dollars). Archery draws a sample from a (mostly) moderately wealthy population. When society allows that population to reflect society as a whole then I think archery will.

James


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

So, as I understand, this is not a discussion thread, this thread is a call to action. So let's stop wasting time and put it all to action.

So what's the plan?


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Your post is exactly why your perceived problems will never be resolved. Poor is poor no matter what color you are. Nobody should be given priority just because of the color of their skin. The more you accuse someone of having some sort of advantage because of the color of their skin, the bigger the turn off. I am not gonna judge you by the color of your skin or try to "guilt" you into giving me something. I will just smile and say hello and be on my way. How can you be happy blaming people for the color of their skin. Maybe you should try to get along better with people and you might get a better response. Instead of blaming others , maybe you and limbwalker should start soliciting big companies like Ford to fund "all disadvanged kids". That might make a bigger difference than blaming targeted races. You go kneel down and profess your guilt. I won't.



tassie_devil said:


> John did not propose quotas/percentages or any such thing. He said he would like to see a more diverse field, that better reflected the national population. Arguing against this sentiment because you don’t believe in quotas (neither do I) is a disingenuous. You are distorting what he has said in order to have something to argue against.
> 
> I agree with the various posters that economics is a factor. Economics affects both access and opportunity. Some ask for solutions. A good point. We have seen in recent weeks that it is easy to protest against a problem. Harder to propose a solution. I don’t think the diversity problem will be solved ‘within archery’. The likes of Larry who provide opportunity are doing their bit but until peoples life circumstances allow time and at least some money to shoot, opportunity on its own is not enough. We must solve the socioeconomic problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Hey, I have an idea. The world is right now correcting itself, ridding it of all the past sins. All those statues being pulled down (or planning to), let's just cut to the chase and fast forward the whole thing. I suggest you guys take a look at the Hall of Fame, and decide if you wanna start from there.

You're welcome.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tassie_devil said:


> John, as you are well aware, when it comes to competition, archery like golf, is expensive. The kids who watched Tiger in his prime should be hitting the PGA tour now. I don’t get to watch too much golf these days but it still looks pretty white out there. I think this is the money/access issue.
> 
> I was writing my other post when you wrote this, but in short I’m not sure we can fix that within the sport (unless as someone suggested we get massive corporate dollars). Archery draws a sample from a (mostly) moderately wealthy population. When society allows that population to reflect society as a whole then I think archery will.
> 
> James


Well said.

I also thought by now we would have more golfers of color on the tour. But you know what? At least those golfers of color now have the example they might have needed, for when they are financially ready (like I was in my 30's) to compete (some who don't follow golf might not know about Notah Begay, who was breaking down barriers for Native Americans in the sport) So if TW and Notah did nothing else, they did that much. How many people realize that when TW won the Masters in '97 by an unprecedented 12 strokes, black members had been allowed for only 7 years, and it would be 15 YEARS before female members would be allowed? That is unthinkable.


----------



## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

I don't really think you want to look at other solutions than whatever you're convinced is the solution John. So I will bow out and stop distracting this thread


----------



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Braveheart said:


> Giving things is never the answer. Quotas only fuel resentment. Hard work and wanting it bad enough is what fosters sucess.


You seem to think a love for archery alone gets minorities in the sport. It doesn't. If they feel this sport is not welcoming to their people, theyre not gonna come. 

This isn't a "what have whites done to keep minorities out?" issue. This is a "what CAN whites do to get minorities IN?" issue. Nobody is blaming or saying whites owe it to minorities. The OP was simply asking what can we do to encourage more participation on their part?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rylando said:


> I don't really think you want to look at other solutions than whatever you're convinced is the solution John. So I will bow out and stop distracting this thread


I'm convinced something is the solution? That's news to me. Do tell.

What solution did you offer? Did I miss it? 4-H?


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I've always said that the answer to almost any non-technique question asked here is "get Jeff Bezos hooked on shooting a target bow."


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Again, you are distorting my words just to argue with them. I did not, and have not, advocated helping people because of race. I have advocated helping the disadvantaged, all of them. The fact that in certain places the certain groups are disproportionately represented among the disadvantaged is peripheral. I am not trying to guilt you into anything. I don’t want you to give me anything. I have not blamed you for anything. If you cannot see that it is on the whole luckier to be white than not, then I don’t think you ever will. 



Braveheart said:


> Your post is exactly why your perceived problems will never be resolved. Poor is poor no matter what color you are. Nobody should be given priority just because of the color of their skin. The more you accuse someone of having some sort of advantage because of the color of their skin, the bigger the turn off. I am not gonna judge you by the color of your skin but or try to "guilt" you into giving me something. I will just smile and say hello and be on my way. How can you be happy blaming people for the color of their skin. Maybe you should try to get along better with people and yiu might get a better response. Instead of blaming others , maybe you and limbwalker should start soliciting big companies like Ford to fund "all disadvanged kids". That might make a bigger difference than blaming targeted races. You go kneel down and profess your guilt. I won't.


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

lksseven said:


> I've always said that the answer to almost any non-technique question asked here is "get Jeff Bezos hooked on shooting a target bow."


If only...


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

That is where you are wrong and yes you are "race baiting". You will never win until you see no color. Poor is poor, no matter what color. If you are so passionate why don't you try to get big corporations involved. Nobody is stopping you.



tassie_devil said:


> Again, you are distorting my words just to argue with them. I did not, and have not, advocated helping people because of race. I have advocated helping the disadvantaged, all of them. The fact that in certain places the certain groups are disproportionately represented among the disadvantaged is a periphery. I am not trying to guilt you into anything. I don’t want you to give me anything. I have not blamed you for anything. If you cannot see that it is on the whole luckier to be white than not, then I don’t think you ever will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> I've always said that the answer to almost any non-technique question asked here is "get Jeff Bezos hooked on shooting a target bow."


Who is Jeff Bezos? 

Larry, I think you're doing what you can, where you can. I think that's what all of us need to do, which is why I asked for ideas and examples.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Braveheart said:


> That is where you are wrong and yes you are "race baiting". You will never win until you see no color. Poor is poor, no matter what color. If you are so passionate why don't you try to get big corporations involved. Nobody is stopping you.


Now you're just trolling. BH, TD spelled out where you are wrong, but like so many others, you refuse to see it. I promise you, you didn't have it any harder than I did growing up but I also promise you that we both benefited from the color of our skin. Now just give it a rest. I asked a simple question. If you don't have any suggestions, move on.


----------



## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

John,

The only way you are going to get diversity in this sport you need three things:

1) The sport has to be free or at least inexpensive. 
2) Need an idol or hero of color in the sport.
3) There needs to be a potential pay day for those who become elite.

Without these three things, it isn’t going to happen. These are what baseball, basketball & football have going for them, and that is why they attract minorities into them. Until then, all you are going to see is middle class to rich kids at these tournaments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Any initiatives that focus on 'outside the schools' are doomed to fail, imo. Archery is a tough sport on the time and logistics of parents. Even many well-heeled families have a hard time making archery 'work' in their framework of time after school - dads working, moms working or (even more work) taxing 3 kids around to school to other activities most evenings and homework, etc. I've had more than a few kids stop shooting because the mom just couldn't spare the 1.5 hours to bring the child to practice or a lesson and then be held hostage there for the hour of the lesson or practice, then the travel time home. 

IF it were up to me, I'd concentrate my efforts and money as 'seed planting' in urban inner city schools. Start the cycle of recognition and appreciation there. I know NASP is reaching a zillion kids in many states, but how many schools is it successful in in the inner urban schools in big cities? This is where it's most needed, but ironically is also where archery is likely to encounter the most resistance by school administrators ("it's a weapon! Never!").

Get some recently retired high profile black athletes to get hooked , and have them be the Jackie Robinsons to the students.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Who is Jeff Bezos?
> 
> Larry, I think you're doing what you can, where you can. I think that's what all of us need to do, which is why I asked for ideas and examples.


Amazon owner ($$$$x infinity).


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

"If you cannot see that it is on the whole luckier to be white than not, then I don’t think you ever will. "

That is where you are wrong and yes you are "race baiting". You will never win until you see no color. Poor is poor, no matter what color. If you are so passionate why don't you try to get big corporations involved. Nobody is stopping you.



tassie_devil said:


> Again, you are distorting my words just to argue with them. I did not, and have not, advocated helping people because of race. I have advocated helping the disadvantaged, all of them. The fact that in certain places the certain groups are disproportionately represented among the disadvantaged is a periphery. I am not trying to guilt you into anything. I don’t want you to give me anything. I have not blamed you for anything. If you cannot see that it is on the whole luckier to be white than not, then I don’t think you ever will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> John,
> 
> The only way you are going to get diversity in this sport you need three things:
> 
> ...


You might be right. But I think there are smaller, more local things we can do in the meantime. That idol or hero of color has to come from somewhere.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Amazon owner ($$$$x infinity).


Gotcha. I don't follow folks like that much and I don't watch much TV anymore. It's too depressing. LOL


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Still waiting for Limbwalker's solution. I suggested he go to big corporations but silence from Limbwalker. Trolling? You mean having a difference of opinion Whatever? Whatever


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Any initiatives that focus on 'outside the schools' are doomed to fail, imo. Archery is a tough sport on the time and logistics of parents. Even many well-heeled families have a hard time making archery 'work' in their framework of time - dads working, moms working or (even more work) taxing 3 kids around to school to other activities most evenings and homework, etc. IF it were up to me, I'd concentrate my efforts and money as 'seed planting' in urban inner city schools. Start the cycle of recognition and appreciation there. I know NASP is reaching a zillion kids in many states, but how many schools is it successful in in the inner urban schools in big cities? This is where it's most needed, but ironically is also where archery is likely to encounter the most resistance by school administrators ("it's a weapon! Never!").
> 
> Get some recently retired high profile black athletes to get hooked , and have them be the Jackie Robinsons to the students.


Funny Larry but I had almost this exact convo with my wife today. We have one school in our small town that is the Jr. High now, but it used to be the "black High School" before desegregation, and it's still in a predominantly black neighborhood. I tried for several years to get a NASP program started in that school, but never could find a teacher who would make time for the program, even though the principal was 100% on board with it. Maybe it's time to try again.

I like your ideas. That gives me some food for thought. Thanks!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Braveheart said:


> Still waiting for Limbwalker's solution. I suggested he go to big corporations but silence from Limbwalker. Trolling? Whatever


Why would someone who already has a solution, start a thread asking for ideas?

and 38 posts out of 126 is trolling. Particularly when your 3rd post denied there was even a problem.


----------



## sightcaster (Aug 15, 2015)

erose said:


> John,
> 
> The only way you are going to get diversity in this sport you need three things:
> 
> ...


Agree. And #3 is #1. 
There is no way to make a comfortable living by just shooting a bow. That is the big killer. 
There is not even any glory in it except among peers. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Archery needs recruiting in the schools. When i was a kid a bunch of "cool" kids came to my class and played their band instruments... and i knew i wanted to as well. 

Get some of these juniors who are on the USA Archery team wearing their jerseys to go to diverse schools and do a demo. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

https://youtu.be/sGYl17DiEwo?t=929

Oh, you guys don't know the meaning of trolling


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'd like to sidetrack a little (I'm going to invoke my right to do so based on my asian ethnicity) and direct everyone's attention to the progress society has made since our last world war. Let's give ourselves a pat on our backs.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

https://www.earthlymission.com/wp-c..._dictator_killed_the_most_people_2-scaled.jpg




theminoritydude said:


> I'd like to sidetrack a little (I'm going to invoke my right to do so based on my asian ethnicity) and direct everyone's attention to the progress society has made since our last world war. Let's give ourselves a pat on our backs.
> 
> View attachment 7180967


----------



## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> wow the backlash. I'm surprised, but maybe I shouldn't be.
> 
> Kelly, it took Jackie Robinson to open up MLB to people of color. When young boys saw him playing, they said to themselves "maybe I can do that too." Like it or not, that's how the brain works.




Not trying to cause a backlash, definitely not my intent, but in your example of Jackie Robinson, was the inspiration for other African-Americans to take up the sport, or did it influence the Caucasions to allow African-Americans into MLB? Because there were ***** leagues all over the place before Jackie crossed into the MLB. 

I won't deny that's how the brain works either, my question is, if anyone is truly seeking social reform, if having a role model who looks like me reduces or enforces those prejudices... 

I guess I don't approach your question as a minority or economic level focus on increasing diversity, but rather as giving every potential student of the sport the opportunity to try it and love or hate it; I just feel like that in time the retention and dropout rates would more naturally follow the groups who at this point have better access to the sport [if my thoughts into words makes sense]. 

My solution to the question at hand is simply making those introductions to the sport more available to everyone- Yes at the moment that includes increasing programs in lower income areas, but for long-term health of the sport eventually efforts will have to balance out so that every child or adult who wants to try gets the opportunity to do so, and not because "they look like me" or "wanna make a million bucks" but because they develop a love of the art. I guess I just feel like, if USarchery, WA, NFAA, para-archery, all died tomorrow, I would still pick up my bow and go to the range; so would, I'm guessing, many of the young kids I've interacted with at the range. 

So, I'm not sure I mentioned it before, I've started and deleted so many posts on this topic, but I feel like our club and city does quite a bit to promote archery without neglecting the regard for diversity, be it race or ethnicity or economic status... Our JOAD program is dirt cheap as compared to other programs/coaches I've come to know- Our JOAD coaches, organizers, and volunteers all do it without pay but for the love of promoting the sport; Our club donates targets and range time for the program, as well as for any youth programs the city may approach us with. We help maintain a field course at the state park, we provide introduction to archery events at our large community activities. Our kids are encouraged to, and do attend, league shoots, which are free to them, as well as only paying a few dollars for our bigger club and even state events- With donated prizes so the kids don't feel as if they are competing for nothing. We seek and get quite a few donations from community businesses for not only our shoots in general, but also specific to the youth competitions/shoots and our scholarship programs. 

Where we fall short in the diversity conversation and if you looked at a snapshot of our clubs and competitions... It's Cheyenne Wyoming... As a whole our diverse population doesn't mirror that of the nation... 

Again, not meant as a backlash, I just see trying to increase diversity by targeting those diverse populations is a slippery slope and at the bottom is the possibility that we're only reinforcing the ideals that causes under representation of certain races, ethnicities, and eco-social groups in the first place... "I want to shoot because I'm purple and that top shooter is also purple" promotes the "I can only do things purple people can do..." and "I'm different because I'm purple..." mindset; if a change in archery is to truly occur, I just feel like we have to get away from purple being a factor altogether. 

This brings to mind other conversations of inclusion/exclusion in the forum... "You shoot NTS or you don't become a resident athlete..." or JOAD/NTS is the only path to national teams... 

All this from someone who has often felt like a minority, an after thought, an "oh those guys" within USArchery. Has nothing to do with my race or my economic status, and everything to do with the limited opportunities I can enjoy.


----------



## Davos5.7 (Jul 27, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> In America, economic problems and race problems are inextricably linked.


I agree to an extent, except I have been to several rural areas that are basically mirror images of the projects. 

I do know that privilege exists, and yes, to an extent people's bias will trend towards hiring, associating, and collaborating with their own race. The simplest thing we can do is to lift all people up and remove hurdles to "making it". 

Anyone that disagrees, go quit your job, sell everything. Walk into the hood, or into a rural area, and start from scratch. Bet you cannot do it. I can't, not in any meaningful way. 

We have slowly stripped away the ability for our children, and children's children to make it in today's world. Too much regulation, too many hurdles. I was given a job I had no business doing when I was young, because of who my father was. The led to the next job and the next. I could not have truly done it on my own, and I never had to deal with race stereotypes or hurdles associated with growing up poor.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

erose said:


> John,
> 
> The only way you are going to get diversity in this sport you need three things:
> 
> ...


And, 1) and 3) are the reasons why Archery, same as all other sports that need equipments (from fencing to sailing) and give no concrete rewards, will never become a popular sport, anywere in the world.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess looking back at my own situation - I lived in majority-minority neighborhoods for much of my childhood, but 1) I saw role models in archery who looked like me and 2) I had a mother who supported, or at least didn't discourage, my interest in archery, and 3) I usually had a yard to shoot in. We were no better off than anyone else on our street. I usually had one fiberglass bow and 2 or 3 mismatched arrows that I found at garage sales. My target was often a cardboard box stuffed with newspaper. But the times we lived in the "projects" (low rent housing) I didn't have a place to shoot and got in trouble for trying to shoot between apartment buildings. So for kids who don't have a yard, that's issue #1. In that case, they need an archery program they can walk/bike/bus to.


----------



## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

When a new movie comes out such as the Hunger Games my local range gets a ton of new archers. They buy or rent equipment and might even get a lesson or two. Interest wanes quickly until the next movie comes out. Very few have an interest in recurve once they think compound is easier, faster or they come from a area of hunters. Time, cost, control, focus, and dedication requirements usually are more than most are willing to give. The availability of places to shoot, cost of coaching, choice of coaches, are seen as a downside not a plus.
Watching an archery match doesn’t hold the same interest as a major sport with heroes and mainstream hype. 
Again, no pay days, no millions to be made, not a national pastime, high cost, limited access and boring as watching paint dry. On incentive could be scholarships. Schools use to have archery clubs and summer camps use archery as a time filler not a serious sport.
Archery like so many other very expensive hobby spots aren’t for everyone unless they have a deep interest, deep pockets, plenty of time or see a future return value. 
When my local range offers specials for new shooters they get tons of new shooter. Very few will become archers, some will become hunters but for most it’s one time and done.
Worse yet, that cheap rental bow isn’t the latest or greatest and that $20 day at the range is only an intro to spending several thousands making any commitment unlikely at best for most. Hunter dad wants his little ones to be like him and if he’s clueless about archery form programming mistakes becomes a lifetime of love/hate of archery.
There’s plenty of room for diversity but most of the time not a lot of interest or disposable income. 
Nick


----------



## GilV (Mar 2, 2009)

I grew up in a poor north east urban city. I am 66 and started shooting the bow at 4 years old. The reason I got into archery is because I had a cousin that lived in a suburban area and bow hunted. We lived in a two family house and I had an ottoman I would turn on its side and use as a target. Could only shoot 10 yards since that's all the room we had outside. In the inner city we played baseball - one manhole was home the next manhole second a parked car door was first on one side of the street and third on the other, stick ball against a factory wall, basket ball with a hoop on a telephone pole, touch foot ball between telephone pole lenghts, running bases between manholes, step ball and hand ball. If I didn't have my cousin I would have never heard about or cared about archery. 

It isn't discrimination that causes a lack of diversity in archery, it is access to equipment and a place to shoot, also the lack of knowledge about the sport and role models. None of my black, white or Hispanic friends ever gave a hoot about archery and still don't. There is no school competitions like other sports. And especially it doesn't attract girls to you (the most important reason). In addition urban areas are mainly poor areas, so discretionary income is hard to find to spend money on a sport that is little known in urban areas. While all the equipment you need for others sports is provided in high school or easily obtained. Archery is more of a rural/suburban sport where people enjoy hunting. Many people took up archery to add a second long hunting season in addition to firearm season. Some suburban schools have archery programs, access to target ranges and school archery clubs. How many of you would sit and watch an entire archery competition, instead of football., baseball or basketball. Some of you probably would, but people that aren't into archery would vomit and consider it torture to watch.

It isn't discrimination, it is choice.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

But, but Napoleon Dynamite listed "bowhunting" as one of the skills girls want! LOL

Just did a quick search of the USArchery website, and there is hardly a person of color to be found in any image. That might be a good place to start - at least showing what representation already exists and making sure any person of color who searched the website saw someone who might look like them. Might be a good time for USArchery to speak up about how inclusive the sport is, just for starters.


----------



## GilV (Mar 2, 2009)

Well if people of color choose not to participate, you can always hire a handsome or beautiful person of color to be photographed to try to entice people into the sport on the web site, but that would probably be considered racist. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. 

By the way the star of Napoleon Dynamite was paid $1000 for the role. Sounds like professional archers, right? In some areas he was right though. Ha!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GilV said:


> Well if people of color choose not to participate, you can always hire a handsome or beautiful person of color to be photographed to try to entice people into the sport on the web site, but that would probably be considered racist. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
> 
> By the way the star of Napoleon Dynamite was paid $1000 for the role. Sounds like professional archers, right? In some areas he was right though. Ha!


The "well "they" are always welcome to particpate" excuse is lazy and flippant IMO. But I suppose folks are entitled to believe that is enough.

Interesting how many folks have chosen to respond to the question "what can we do" with "we don't need to do anything." Always a good recipe for getting more of what we already got.


----------



## GilV (Mar 2, 2009)

You received a lot of information from these posts. What is your solution after reading these posts? You made it sound like you thought pictures on the web site would help. Personally I think you are just trolling to let people know you are part of the condescending woke intelligentsia with noble ideas to show what a good person you are and no solutions.


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

“What can we do?” - the kind of question Fentanyl suppliers should be asking right now.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

GilV said:


> You received a lot of information from these posts. What is your solution after reading these posts? You made it sound like you thought pictures on the web site would help. Personally I think you are just trolling to let people know you are part of the condescending woke intelligentsia with noble ideas to show what a good person you are and no solutions.


Nice personal attack. A simple question shouldn't upset you so much. It's pretty clear what those of us who want to see progress, are up against - being attacked for the mere suggestion. I suppose that's what keeps so many good people from speaking up.


----------



## Rael84 (Feb 22, 2016)

This thread exploded overnight so it may have already been mentioned, but having a program like s3da but geared less towards hunting and with support from (more) universities outside the deep south evangelical bubble would go a long way towards increasing diversity. The scholarship opportunities could drive some real interest if they weren't for schools that aren't on many students' radar. As far as hunting, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it but bowhunting is an activity in which white rural folk are over-represented. It is difficult to capture a kid's attention when there is no connection to an activity they (or family) already participate in.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rael84 said:


> This thread exploded overnight so it may have already been mentioned, but having a program like s3da but geared less towards hunting and with support from (more) universities outside the deep south evangelical bubble would go a long way towards increasing diversity. The scholarship opportunities could drive some real interest if they weren't for schools that aren't on many students' radar. As far as hunting, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it but bowhunting is an activity in which white rural folk are over-represented. It is difficult to capture a kid's attention when there is no connection to an activity they (or family) already participate in.


I wish we could convince Bo Jackson to take up target archery. I wonder how many people of color even know he has an archery shop in his basement and is an avid bowhunter. You certainly don't see his face on many bowhunting websites. 

Reese Hoffa - a shot putter at the Athens games, used to sit behind me on the training field and watch me shoot. He was a young black man who grew up in Georgia and took up bowhunting as a teen. He had all kinds of questions about target archery, and would spend time just sitting behind our shooting line watching us shoot. I'd love to get folks like Reese to the line to show other young black men and women that archery can be for them too.


----------



## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Right on! He thinks so highly of himself. It is a real turn off. He may be a good person but you should not have to tear down everyone else who does not see things the way you do. Why does everybody see color? Who pays for free stuff? Much better to live in an world where people actually have to work hard and meet standards. Didn't MLK say that no man should be judged by the color of his skin but the content of their character? I wonder what he would think about all this? Your argument we need a "token" someone is an insult. Kids of all races did not buy Michael Jorden shoes just because of the color of his skin. They bought them because they wanted "to be like Mike" the person. We all want to know Limbwalker's solution. He points out problems and expects everybody else to fix it? Attack away! It is not that the average person doesn't want to help but I am sure most people like myself are busy working and do not have the time or extra money to be buying everybody stuff. Heck, I can't afford to do National tourneys even though I want to. Not gonna cry about it. Exactly why if you feel the problem you need corporate sponsorships like so many other sports. It is a good start.
BTW shouldn't the "paid" staff at USarchery be the ones working to get corporate sponsorships instead of expecting the volunteers they are already over burdening with :regulations? Just my thoughrs




GilV said:


> You received a lot of information from these posts. What is your solution after reading these posts? You made it sound like you thought pictures on the web site would help. Personally I think you are just trolling to let people know you are part of the condescending woke intelligentsia with noble ideas to show what a good person you are and no solutions.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Again, interesting the direction that some chose to take what was intended to be a productive thread. I guess they just can't help themselves. 

I'm going to close this thread because of the spammers it has managed to attract. If anyone has helpful ideas on how to encourage more diversity in our sport, or ways it's already being done, please PM me. I'd love to hear about them.

Until then, shoot straight.


----------

