# Pencil pushers



## jaybird62 (Apr 18, 2008)

happens everywhere man


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Shoot*



bow_junky said:


> I wish there was a shoot somewhere where all the Pencil Pushers can get together and see whos the bravest. Nothing I hate more in 3D than to watch someone steal a shoot. NO CLASS


Best way to stop it is shoot with them
DB


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## bow_junky (May 21, 2010)

Oh I know...THats why I wish more clubs went to shoot-off. I know it adds for a little longer day but I think it helps keep the integrity. Its just to easy to write a score down and claim your trophy ya know. Whether your there for fun or whatever its still a competion so why not make em compete


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## bow_junky (May 21, 2010)

that or just add a pencil pusher class in the shoot...MENS OPEN, MENS RELEASE, PENCIL PUSHERS


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## ANGEL (Jun 6, 2009)

Like DB stated, it happens everywhere. We make it a point at our shoots to try to shoot with the people we suspect of doing that. Have one couple that literaly refuses to shoot with anyone. They got banned from a few of the ranges. :thumbs_up
One of the range owners stood at the club house and watched them through binos and checked what he saw against their score cards. Its a shame what people will do for a trophy or a few $.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bow_junky said:


> Oh I know...THats why I wish more clubs went to shoot-off. I know it adds for a little longer day


clubs can't go to a shoot off type event mainly because most shoots are "walk ins."

I like the "shoot with them" thing. Again, though, some pencil pushers shoot in their own crowd. And then the buddy crowd has been known to give the close shots the higher score - good for their group, but not really honest for the others in class.

Regardless, most all down home/local shoots are based on the honor system.

This thing is, if the pencil shooter does shoot with some one or at a sanctioned shoot his score will point out things.

Got to laugh. Most shoots in my area are around $10.00. For $10.00 you usually buy a bigger trophy and have anything you want put on the name plate - State Champion, National Champion, etc.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Kind of off topic, but if you ever followed some of these high school golf shoots you'd see the same thing going on. When my son was in H.S. I used to follow along on some meets. Some of those kids couldn't have ever graduated from H.S. because they couldn't count past 3. :wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bow_junky said:


> Oh I know...THats why I wish more clubs went to shoot-off. I know it adds for a little longer day but I think it helps keep the integrity. Its just to easy to write a score down and claim your trophy ya know. Whether your there for fun or whatever its still a competion so why not make em compete


No way a shoot-off would be an option for two day or even one day local shoots.



Daniel Boone said:


> Best way to stop it is shoot with them
> DB


One bad day does NOT make someone a pencil pusher. I could hardly hit foam a few weeks ago at a local shoot. I finished 7th in Hunter class in London, Ky this past weekend and my pins were off 3 inches on Saturday to help keep my score down.

I just don't want folks jumping to conclusions if someone shoots a few bad shoot off targets or has an occasional off day........................... or even an incredibly horrible day for no explainable reason!!!!!


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

bow_junky said:


> I wish there was a shoot somewhere where all the Pencil Pushers can get together and see whos the bravest. Nothing I hate more in 3D than to watch someone steal a shoot. NO CLASS


I feel your pain . But, it is everywhere. Best thing is to try to shoot with the ones you suspect of doing it as mentioned earlier. They all get caught in the end and the reputation never leaves them.


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## NaturesEcho (Jan 20, 2009)

It sucks, but there are a ton of dishonest folks in the world. 

I wish groups got broken up more at shoots. Sometimes it stops the pencil whippers.

I love it when I go to a shoot and whoop someone, and the next shoot I'll check the scores and they'll shoot 15 up. I know people have good and bad days, but come on...


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## bow_junky (May 21, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> No way a shoot-off would be an option for two day or even one day local shoots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shootoffs do work cause there are a few clubs that gone to it here in MO and others wanting to follow. And its really not much extra work. For those who put the time in shooting and attend shoots regularly most people get to know each other and shoot with others enough people know what your capable of so bad days dont destroy your rep and a good day usaully gets a congrats.
And yes I know you will always have people who want to cheat but not doing anything about it is like erraticating the police and just letting people watch themselves.


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## r302 (Apr 5, 2004)

*3D scoring*

I shot field archery from 1971 to 2004 and I never encountered cheating on the score card. I miss added a couple of time myself, but due to double scoring the error was discovered.

The first day of competition you did not shoot with your competition, but on the second day you were assigned to shoot with your competition. Double scoring was always present and I never heard of anyone cheating on a scorecard. I'm sure some liners were called in or out that were probably wrong, but if you had doubts you could always called for the tournament director who made the decision of the arrow in question. That never happened to my group, but it did happen.

With the 3D scoring I am always hearing of cheating and I am amazed that after all this time of the existence of 3D archery that this problem has not been solved. I shoot mostly 3Ds now and I get beat a lot by better archers or maybe I am blind to the problem.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Speak up or put up with it. If you don't question a scorecard or a call, then you are supporting cheating. As you can tell, I am not a crowd pleaser. Maybe some don't want to shoot with me because I may challenge them and that's okay with me because I'm not looking for trouble. I'm just looking for a good time too.

r302 :wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bow_junky said:


> Shootoffs do work cause there are a few clubs that gone to it here in MO and others wanting to follow. And its really not much extra work. For those who put the time in shooting and attend shoots regularly most people get to know each other and shoot with others enough people know what your capable of so bad days dont destroy your rep and a good day usaully gets a congrats.
> And yes I know you will always have people who want to cheat but not doing anything about it is like erraticating the police and just letting people watch themselves.


Maybe I should be more clear. Around here there are plenty of 3D shoots but not a great number of archers. Many folks shooting for $7 "trophies" if they go earlier in the morning they don't hang around until 3:30 or later for a shoot off if there is a tie. I know I don't but I don't shoot for the little toy trophies. Now for the money shooters it's different but they are higher caliber archer and if you shoot this class you are expected to shoot with competitors or at least strangers. However, I know one club that did away with "Money Hunter" because we all stopped shooting it because a club officer always won but he ONLY shot with family. He took multiple shots to hit a playing card at 20 yards but shot way up on the clubs IBO course and would not shoot at any other club in the region. I wonder if they know why we all stopped shooting there.......

As adults I think we should:
A) Not be concerned about winning trivial trophies.
B) Try like heck to get in a position to make a cheater extremely uncomfortable or to actually catch them in the act. Get multiple guys together and take turns waiting to shoot with the perps. There almost has to be more than one "cheater" in a group.
C) Have a club officer approach the guy and tell the perp that folks have been very clear that they think he cheats. I bet he gets mad and takes on all comers or storms off and never comes back. Which does not mean he did or didn't cheat.

It was insinuated once that I cheated. I loudly told them to grab their wallets and we'll shoot it again for something that mattered. I had no takers and I haven't been back. I was so mad that if they had taken me up on my offer I probably wouldn't have been able to hit anything! Funny thing is I shot that day with 2 complete strangers that were club members and THEY kept the score!!!


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## tree_frog (Dec 17, 2003)

Very truthful responses and honest, it does happen and it is at most local 3D's. It usually comes out at an IBO/ASA qualifier or such shoots. We've found the best thing to do is not to shoot non-competitive at most shoots, it takes that opportunity away from those that do push. Also it drives people crazy not knowing how you shot that day


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## Radford Wooly (Apr 18, 2010)

Hard to catch them!!


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## bwhntr4168 (Mar 15, 2005)

look at the usba they have a scoring judge at every target!! no pushing there!!


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## psychobaby111 (Mar 23, 2008)

*pp*

The guys i shoot with want to beat me so they keep a close eye on my score card, real close.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

thats why local shoots are local shoots.if the shoot isnt double scored and groups not broken up thens it really means nothing,most of the people who are doing this find another hobby


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

We need a new class. How about Known Pencil.


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## ultramax (Feb 6, 2005)

bow_junky said:


> that or just add a pencil pusher class in the shoot...MENS OPEN, MENS RELEASE, PENCIL PUSHERS


I like that idea! There would be some serious competition around here for the top score in that class!


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

EROS said:


> We need a new class. How about Known Pencil.


How bout the "everyone is a winner" class. That way there are no losers.

That would make practicing to become better or good totally unnecessary.

Amazing the lengths people will go to "feel good about themselves"  uke:


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## Viper69 (Feb 4, 2003)

If that is what makes them feel good about themselves then good for them.. I cant see how you can enjoy a hobby/sport like this and cheat while doing it.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*I Like it.*



EROS said:


> We need a new class. How about Known Pencil.


That's funny.


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## morphious (Dec 17, 2008)

EROS said:


> We need a new class. How about Known Pencil.


ASA's new KP class...

It makes it hard to catch them for sure. There have been a couple of times that I have seen some people turn in the same score for 3 or 4 tourneys or within 1 point at different events.


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## ARCHERCHRIS3 (Aug 18, 2008)

All I have to say about pencil pushers is your just cheating yourself in the long run!


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## bowhuntntxn (May 1, 2006)

I know this is just dumb, but I have to say it anyway. If you are in it for the fun of the game, and love of archery, why does it matter who beats you with the pencil? As long as you shot your best, and are satisfied with it, then who cares how they beat you? Or did you really want that trophy for yourself?

Getting beat by someone else cheating is really sorry, but as long as you are satisfied with yourself, and how you HONESTLY posted your score, then so be it.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Sounds Good*



bowhuntntxn said:


> I know this is just dumb, but I have to say it anyway. If you are in it for the fun of the game, and love of archery, why does it matter who beats you with the pencil? As long as you shot your best, and are satisfied with it, then who cares how they beat you? Or did you really want that trophy for yourself?
> 
> Getting beat by someone else cheating is really sorry, but as long as you are satisfied with yourself, and how you HONESTLY posted your score, then so be it.


Yea, Take the high road right?? 

Sounds good on paper BUT, nobody likes to get beat by a cheater. 
People say they don't care about the trophy but it's still nice to occasinally win something for your efforts. If you deserve it.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bowhuntntxn said:


> I know this is just dumb, but I have to say it anyway. If you are in it for the fun of the game, and love of archery, why does it matter who beats you with the pencil? As long as you shot your best, and are satisfied with it, then who cares how they beat you? Or did you really want that trophy for yourself?
> 
> Getting beat by someone else cheating is really sorry, but as long as you are satisfied with yourself, and how you HONESTLY posted your score, then so be it.


I can only speak for myself when I say you completely misunderstand my point of view. It is NOT about being beat. I honestly enjoy shooting archery as a personal challenge that is not effected by what others score. It may sound narcissistic but MY archery is ALL about me. But I root for my friends to do well by their standards which for some is a national championship and for others it might be shooting even in 3D or getting their first 300 indoors. Heck, I root for everyone to do well by their personal standards. I've beaten national champions when they've had a bad day and took no significant pride in it since it had nothing to do with how I shot. My enjoyment of archery is NOT based on "me beating you". When someone smudges archery and humanity by egregiously cheating I feel it's my duty to call :bs:

I am not one to stand idly by as someone "takes" from society even if it's something so trivial as a $7 trophy at a local shoot.

Note: Anyone that focuses on beating another archer is hurting themselves. All energy must be focused on what you are doing. Thinking about beating someone is an unnecessary distraction in competition. If it motivates you to train better/harder then that's fine but leave it at home when it's time to compete.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> I can only speak for myself when I say you completely misunderstand my point of view. It is NOT about being beat. I honestly enjoy shooting archery as a personal challenge that is not effected by what others score. It may sound narcissistic but MY archery is ALL about me. But I root for my friends to do well by their standards which for some is a national championship and for others it might be shooting even in 3D or getting their first 300 indoors. Heck, I root for everyone to do well by their personal standards. I've beaten national champions when they've had a bad day and took no significant pride in it since it had nothing to do with how I shot. My enjoyment of archery is NOT based on "me beating you". When someone smudges archery and humanity by egregiously cheating I feel it's my duty to call :bs:
> 
> I am not one to stand idly by as someone "takes" from society even if it's something so trivial as a $7 trophy at a local shoot.
> 
> Note: Anyone that focuses on beating another archer is hurting themselves. All energy must be focused on what you are doing. Thinking about beating someone is an unnecessary distraction in competition. If it motivates you to train better/harder then that's fine but leave it at home when it's time to compete.


Well stated young man! You got it figured out. That is the kind of attitude that will keep you in this sport for as long as your body holds up.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

I cant stand a cheater they all need a good beat down.There is a guy in NC that won soy last year and is in the lead this year.Well here is the kicker a guy I know watched him glance off a target and tell his group that he shot threw it and it was a new freakn target.
So which is worse the cheater or nobody standing up and doing anything about it?If I was there he would have been called out.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> I cant stand a cheater they all need a good beat down.There is a guy in NC that won soy last year and is in the lead this year.Well here is the kicker a guy I know watched him glance off a target and tell his group that he shot threw it and it was a new freakn target.
> So which is worse the cheater or nobody standing up and doing anything about it?If I was there he would have been called out.



The worse thing is someone cheating in the Known Pencil class.


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

Got to wonder, how many winners really won by pushing a pencil and how many losers are just sore.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> I cant stand a cheater they all need a good beat down.There is a guy in NC that won soy last year and is in the lead this year.Well here is the kicker a guy I know watched him glance off a target and tell his group that he shot threw it and it was a new freakn target.
> So which is worse the cheater or nobody standing up and doing anything about it?If I was there he would have been called out.


An arrow that is scored differently amongst people because of its relation to a scoring line is one thing but an belligerently bold flagrant "foul" is another!! I'm right there with you treeman. But I HATE confronting folks because I know when I do that it could get ugly and frequently they try to throw mud at the accuser. I'd almost bet he'd spread a rumor along the lines of, "I didn't cheat, Joe Blow said I cheated because I beat him".


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## easyeriq (Feb 10, 2008)

I guess I am not good enough to be competative for top spots. This is my second year shooting. Last year, I was just happy hitting every target. This year is alot better. I shoot 3d for FUN and to improve my shooting. I really only compete against myself. I strive for a better score than last week. Each week gets progresively better. I don't cheat, that would flaw the reasons I do it. It would be nice to win, but I am not going to cheat to do it.


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## wirenut583 (Nov 4, 2007)

*NO Class*

Note: Anyone that focuses on beating another archer is hurting themselves. All energy must be focused on what you are doing. Thinking about beating someone is an unnecessary distraction in competition. If it motivates you to train better/harder then that's fine but leave it at home when it's time to compete. 
__________________
This is got to be one of the best Quotes ever. This could be said for all individual sports


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

wirenut583 said:


> Note: Anyone that focuses on beating another archer is hurting themselves. All energy must be focused on what you are doing. Thinking about beating someone is an unnecessary distraction in competition. If it motivates you to train better/harder then that's fine but leave it at home when it's time to compete.
> __________________
> This is got to be one of the best Quotes ever. This could be said for all individual sports


Thank you.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

Well I was getting ready to put up a big score this weekend in the Known Pecil class, then disaster set in. Broken Pencil Point . I hate when I'm pushing good and I have equipment failure.


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## bow_junky (May 21, 2010)

Im all for the love love of archery, but I guess its the competitive side in me to want to strive to the best. I like being in the top of that board cause I know Ive worked hard to get there. I may catch alot of flack for this but if your not wanting to win at a COMPETITION, then I bet your not used to winning at much of anything.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

Pick your battles. Go to a big shoot for your competitive side. The local shoots are for local competition, self pride on making good shots, fun with your friends or good practice on ranging targets.


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## swinestalker (Oct 28, 2009)

I am confused, I went to 3ds back in the 1980s and have been to a few in the past 2 years, I have never kept my own score. One person in the group keeps them all.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

All you gota do is shoot a score higher than they can write down. LOL
:wink::thumbs_up


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## odoylerules (May 12, 2009)

Ive read this thread with great interest...Ive been asked to take over my clubs tournaments for the upcoming year. At our last big shoot we had a bit of a controversy. The same situation as many others on this thread. A certain indiviual that only shoots with his family, and has won it 2-3 years in a row, never shoots anywhere else, etc. etc
Two groups on either side of this one in question, stated they witnessed a few 5's and many 8's being shot, but when the scores are posted, there incredible! dropping only a few points all day! We give out a VERY nice real silver belt buckle for the winner.
Im looking for some real ways to solve this long term. You can't just walk up to someone and accuse them of cheating. 
So how do I fix this? People love to shoot with there friends/family. How do I tell them they cant?! We already double score. Theres no way to put a scorer on every target. This is a two day tournament. Would you be mad, or not shoot if you were told the top 10/20 or whatever number shooters had to shoot together the second day, if they wanted to be in the running for the money or trophy?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*club*



odoylerules said:


> Ive read this thread with great interest...Ive been asked to take over my clubs tournaments for the upcoming year. At our last big shoot we had a bit of a controversy. The same situation as many others on this thread. A certain indiviual that only shoots with his family, and has won it 2-3 years in a row, never shoots anywhere else, etc. etc
> Two groups on either side of this one in question, stated they witnessed a few 5's and many 8's being shot, but when the scores are posted, there incredible! dropping only a few points all day! We give out a VERY nice real silver belt buckle for the winner.
> Im looking for some real ways to solve this long term. You can't just walk up to someone and accuse them of cheating.
> So how do I fix this? People love to shoot with there friends/family. How do I tell them they cant?! We already double score. Theres no way to put a scorer on every target. This is a two day tournament. Would you be mad, or not shoot if you were told the top 10/20 or whatever number shooters had to shoot together the second day, if they wanted to be in the running for the money or trophy?


We just add a club member to their shooting group. Someone who we trust to keep scores legit.


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## 300club (Jan 21, 2010)

I think it would be nice to see a HUGE sign, at the sign up booth. That says, or shows what is in and what is out, (this is a 10 and this is a 8,or 5 ) And some kind of phrase or statement about being honest,I think that it would help.. Most people morals will come into play, and it would help, not tottaly eleiminate ,but help...


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## 300club (Jan 21, 2010)

odoylerules said:


> Ive read this thread with great interest...Ive been asked to take over my clubs tournaments for the upcoming year. At our last big shoot we had a bit of a controversy. The same situation as many others on this thread. A certain indiviual that only shoots with his family, and has won it 2-3 years in a row, never shoots anywhere else, etc. etc
> Two groups on either side of this one in question, stated they witnessed a few 5's and many 8's being shot, but when the scores are posted, there incredible! dropping only a few points all day! We give out a VERY nice real silver belt buckle for the winner.
> Im looking for some real ways to solve this long term. You can't just walk up to someone and accuse them of cheating.
> So how do I fix this? People love to shoot with there friends/family. How do I tell them they cant?! We already double score. Theres no way to put a scorer on every target. This is a two day tournament. Would you be mad, or not shoot if you were told the top 10/20 or whatever number shooters had to shoot together the second day, if they wanted to be in the running for the money or trophy?


 Just make it clear on sat. that to compete for the buckle , or what ever.. Sunday will be a flighted class day, if you dont want to compete for it you may shoot with whom ever.. If hes really a pusher he wont shoot in the with the flighted guys.. I dont think that you should make it though so he cant shoot with his family,, if that makes the group to big then simply make another one to accomadate him and his family . as long as hes shooting with a few other flighted members thats all that matters.. If he still turns you down then I guess you no why.. But at least you tried to make it fair and honest for all...


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## bowhuntntxn (May 1, 2006)

I may have been misunderstood in what I said. I am as competitive as any one else out there, and yes I am not comfortable with losing. regardless of the method. I also want to find any one cheating and kick them out, post their name in bold letters at every club in the area, and maybe post pics on the web, so they will be so shamed they will never return, or stop cheating. 

BUT, that being said, I am not gonna lose any sleep worrying about if I was cheated or not. If I can shoot my best, and constantly improve MY skills, then I know I have done all I can. If I lose then I lose. I will not be happy with it, but then I guess I should improve more, until I get to the point that the only way to beat me is to cheat. Then it becomes obvious that cheating is occurring.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

odoylerules said:


> Ive read this thread with great interest...Ive been asked to take over my clubs tournaments for the upcoming year. At our last big shoot we had a bit of a controversy. The same situation as many others on this thread. A certain indiviual that only shoots with his family, and has won it 2-3 years in a row, never shoots anywhere else, etc. etc
> Two groups on either side of this one in question, stated they witnessed a few 5's and many 8's being shot, but when the scores are posted, there incredible! dropping only a few points all day! We give out a VERY nice real silver belt buckle for the winner.
> Im looking for some real ways to solve this long term. You can't just walk up to someone and accuse them of cheating.
> So how do I fix this? People love to shoot with there friends/family. How do I tell them they cant?! We already double score. Theres no way to put a scorer on every target. This is a two day tournament. Would you be mad, or not shoot if you were told the top 10/20 or whatever number shooters had to shoot together the second day, if they wanted to be in the running for the money or trophy?


- Make it standard practice to have at least one disinterested member in all groups.
- Make a sign that is very visible mentioning honesty and that if anyone sees any cheating they should report it.
- Simply watch some targets with binos. I highly recommend that at least 2 people make the observation. I also highly recommend that a scoring infraction be obvious and that there be at least 2 different infractions.

I would have 2 guys in the group behind him and 2 guys in the group in front observe and write down his score when they are sure how an arrow should be recorded. I would then have at least one other person with me when I approached him AWAY from other folks and quietly told him he was no longer welcome. You'll need hard evidence as a single erroneous score could be explained away as a simple recording error..........it does happen. I think this is the best way since once he's busted others will think twice before cheating.

Another option is to simply tell him that it has been brought to your attention many times that some folks believe he cheats. That you hate to hear such gossip and that you would like for him to let an unbiased archer shoot in his group so that the rumors will stop. I bet he throws a fit, doesn't shoot and never comes back.

BTW - There are a few of us that are sure a couple of guys cheated at our state ASA championship a few years ago. But there was no way to prove it.


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## jerzy-joe (May 23, 2010)

*Shaky hands*

There everywhere you go,you can't stop them,there only hurting themselves,when it comes down to the wire"THATS WHEN IT SHOWS",I say just sit back and deal with it,or call them out 1 on 1 and you better hope you smash them.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I have found that one of the best ways to stop the pencil pushing is have flighted shooting and double scoring. As far as the local shoots without these procedures, I just shoot these for fun and practice. That way I don't even think about what other scores are turned in.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

ILOVE3D said:


> I have found that one of the best ways to stop the pencil pushing is have flighted shooting and double scoring. As far as the local shoots without these procedures, I just shoot these for fun and practice. That way I don't even think about what other scores are turned in.


I agree with what you are saying. But local shoots for some shooters is all they can do or have time for. Its just a problem that can't be fixed. Unless you put a shooter in that group and even then who knows. I have seen shooters put up good scores and shot with them when they did.

Then seen the same ones shoot like crap at other shoots so who knows.

The only thing I know is this Once person gets this reputation everything they do is suspect

If you have one person just killing the class shoot after shoot you could say your a better shooter then the class your in and move them to another class .


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

EROS said:


> I agree with what you are saying. But local shoots for some shooters is all they can do or have time for. Its just a problem that can't be fixed. Unless you put a shooter in that group and even then who knows. I have seen shooters put up good scores and shot with them when they did.
> 
> Then seen the same ones shoot like crap at other shoots so who knows.
> 
> ...


I hope folks don't assume that if someone puts up good scores and then puts up a terrible score it is definite proof they "cheated" for the good scores!!

I've shot 300 57 X's and a week later shot a 299 45 X's. If it can go that wrong in indoor spots it certainly can go that wrong on a 3D course where there are MANY more variables.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I certainly don't think that someone who could and has shot 300's then they shoot a 299 is a cheater. Anyone who shoots regardless of what type can and do have off days while other days just seem so effortless. I have seen many pro's who have shot 300's consistantly shoot a 299, happened at Vegas this year and happens all the time.


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