# whats accurate in traditional



## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

lol. its a lot harder without the training wheels!


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## Kayo (Mar 15, 2010)

:laugh: good one bowhunter


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## minnie3 (Jul 28, 2009)

try moving back to 15y or 20y and see what's happening. those squares are only tiny.
you may be suprised.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

The best way to tell how good your trad archery is compared to other trad archers is to use a standardized scoring round such as the NFAA Indoor Round. Just looking at a group doesn't give you a good objective measure of your skill compared to others, and other people telling you about how big their groups isn't any better.

2004 US Olympic Team member John Magera said this about the NFAA Indoor Round Scores for trad archery:



> I and my fellow Olympic recurve archers, with our full blown FITA rigs [Olympic-style recurves with sights, stabilizer rods etc.] will generally score in the 295-300 range on that NFAA face, with about 40-50 X’s. My personal best in competition was a 299 with 42 x’s… As for the top “traditional” recurve and longbow shooters, they will be in the 260-275 range. That’s mighty fine shooting…
> Personally, I think any archer should be able to break 200 before they even consider shooting at a deer at that distance (20 yds.) Perhaps they should find the distance they can break 230 at, then make that the limit of their range."


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I average 274 in a 300 Round at home and at the NFAA Indoor Nationals I shot a 265 average - shooting instinctive with my hunting bow of the shelf and hunting arrows. I average a 9 on an IBO Scoring 3D event.

That being said - I think that good shooting is averaging a vital hit on the 3D range - ie: an average of an 8 at the end of the course and a 225 or better in a 300 Round is beginning to shoot well.

I think all trad shooters (at least that want to bowhunt) should strive to average a vital hit on the 3D range.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

a - 

What Warbow said.

Here's the brake down we used before there was a trad:

Archer 0 –189 (D – class)
Bowman 190 – 209 (C – class)
Expert B 210 – 249 (B – class) 
Expert A 250 – 279 (A – class)
Expert AA 280 – 300 (AA – class)

Kinda puts things into perspective. 
It's the same target, same distance and same rules, so two archers across the country or world can compare apples to apples.

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

abundy0014 said:


> Hey guys *i have been playing with traditional archery for the past few years* and was out tonight and realized i suck lol at least in my mind. i have a small block target that has 4 squares painted on it. The squares are 2.25" x 2.25" and from 10 yards i some times hit them but usually miss them by a inch or more. *Im sure its my form* and i cheat by looking down the shaft but i wanted to hear your guys opinions on what you think is accurate. To me im accurate with my compound. from 20 yards i always 99.9% will hit inside those squares. So to me my shooting with the recurve stinks lol


I emboldened the parts that waived a flag to me..but my opinion?...you had a bad session and you're being way to hard on yourself.

I'm a crossover shooter...came from wheelbows a year ago and decided i wanted to tackle what i never truely mastered..my old bob lee...which in the past year has transformed from it's original 54#'s down to 42# limbs...i also aquired a 44# longbow that's merciless on me if i exhibit poor form and a 30# hoyt excel which is a dream to shoot and great for practicing and executing proper, consistant form and the difs between wheelies and stickbows?...is truely worlds apart...you can "play" with a compound and still be reasonably accurate but stickbows don't play..they are all heart and they require the same of the archer...that said?..jump a deer on a stalk or?...be down in a dark bottom right at prime time just before sundown and you may find your stickbow far more accurate than your compound cause it's faster to the draw and for bonus points?..you can still see what you're shooting at in the dark bottoms.

I might also note unto you that it's been said.."If ya ever wanna know the size of an animals kill zone?..just look at the size of it's head."...and that being the case?..your killing rabbits at 10yds with a stickbow and to me?...for a guy that's "just playing with it"?...

that doesn't suck at all. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

doesnt sound like you do all that bad. i would say i shoot no better at 10 yards, but the real tests start when you move back. moving back just 5 yards will start to show just how good you think you are. also go get a nfaa target and shoot a 300 round at 20 yards, thats also a great way to get an idea of how good you are, my highest score is 184 with an avg around 160.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I've shot in a few larger competitive events, tons of local stuff and with many, many archers. Over the years you read a lot online about the tiny groups people shoot all the time but the reality is different. 

As a general rule your above-average shooter will be able to hold a group that grows 3" for every 10 yards. I'm not talking about the one group of to 10 where all the arrows touch, I mean an average spread over say 20-30 arrows. So at 10 yards you'd be hitting a 3" softball sized group regularly. At twenty you'd be in the 6" range which is about the size of a small paper plate. At thirty yards it would be a 9" group which is about the size of a large paper plate. You can continue the line of expansion but past thirty that grows quite a bit for most folks. 

I'm sure people will disagree but if you look at the numbers you can see how they'd stack up on standardized targets and 3D's. Take the NFAA 300 round. The four ring is app. 6" in diameter with the 5 ring being about 3". If you held a 6" group at twenty yards with no flyers you'd hit a minimum of a 240 with the probability of a much higher score. A 270 is 30 4's and 30 5's... equal fours and fives without flyers. The number of people who can actually hit 270's is a very small number. On 3D's the average sized 10 ring on most mid-sized 3D's is about 5" in diameter. If you shoot a 3D course with most targets being somwhere between 18-25 yards and can hold consistent 6" groups at those distances you'll average out somewhere between 8-9 points per target. Much of the difficulty in 3D isn't the actual shooting, it's knowing the correct spot to hit, judging the terrain and distance accurately and dealing with distractions. 

So, short answer, if you're shooting somewhere in that range you're shooting pretty well in the overall scheme of things. If you feel like you're level of accuracy isn't up where you want it know there's always room to improve. Look at your current level, strive for small improvements gradually and you'll be hitting more accurately in short order.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Str8 Shooter said:


> I've shot in a few larger competitive events, tons of local stuff and with many, many archers. Over the years you read a lot online about the tiny groups people shoot all the time but the reality is different.
> 
> As a general rule your above-average shooter will be able to hold a group that grows 3" for every 10 yards. I'm not talking about the one group of to 10 where all the arrows touch, I mean an average spread over say 20-30 arrows. So at 10 yards you'd be hitting a 3" softball sized group regularly. At twenty you'd be in the 6" range which is about the size of a small paper plate. At thirty yards it would be a 9" group which is about the size of a large paper plate. You can continue the line of expansion but past thirty that grows quite a bit for most folks.
> 
> ...


well said !


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Good post St8.

Once I get warmed up in practice sessions I can shoot very tidy groups out to 50 yards, the problem is even a during a tourney youre stopping, waiting and starting your turn again with added pressure and distractions you need to be real world about your tourney shooting.......I see practice as just an indication of what is possible and dont expect to shoot those groups all the time.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> I've shot in a few larger competitive events, tons of local stuff and with many, many archers. Over the years you read a lot online about the tiny groups people shoot all the time but the reality is different.
> 
> As a general rule your above-average shooter will be able to hold a group that grows 3" for every 10 yards. I'm not talking about the one group of to 10 where all the arrows touch, I mean an average spread over say 20-30 arrows. So at 10 yards you'd be hitting a 3" softball sized group regularly. At twenty you'd be in the 6" range which is about the size of a small paper plate. At thirty yards it would be a 9" group which is about the size of a large paper plate. You can continue the line of expansion but past thirty that grows quite a bit for most folks.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Str8 Shooter said:


> I've shot in a few larger competitive events, tons of local stuff and with many, many archers. Over the years you read a lot online about the tiny groups people shoot all the time but the reality is different.
> 
> As a general rule your above-average shooter will be able to hold a group that grows 3" for every 10 yards. I'm not talking about the one group of to 10 where all the arrows touch, I mean an average spread over say 20-30 arrows. So at 10 yards you'd be hitting a 3" softball sized group regularly. At twenty you'd be in the 6" range which is about the size of a small paper plate. At thirty yards it would be a 9" group which is about the size of a large paper plate. You can continue the line of expansion but past thirty that grows quite a bit for most folks.
> 
> ...


Great post STR8...that puts things in perspective real well! :thumbs_up


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

To test your accuracy, put a judo point on and take a shot at that pine cone in the yard about 25 yards away. If you hit it or came real close that is accurate enough. Shooting little squares from 10 yards means nothing.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> a -
> 
> What Warbow said.
> 
> ...


What equipment class was that? Where did most people fit "back in the day?"

-Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Grant -

That was for bare bow. That included ANY bow shot with fingers and no sights. Yes, 60# hunting bows competed with 35# target bows and even compounds. You might be surprised how evenly the win ratios were. 

The class break down was:
Bare bow (any bow, fingers, no sights)
Free Style (any bow fingers with a sight)
Unlimited Free Style (release device, any bow with or without a sight)

Sort of a bell shaped curve with most "regulars" fitting into the high "B" and low "A" classes. Very few "D" shooters (typically newbies) and very, very few AAs. 

Also remember, in addition to the NFAA spot, we used PAA targets, Freeman targets and a host of others with a 300 possible. Each type of shoot was done about once a month, or one in 8 shoots... and that was just the indoor stuff!

Viper1 out.


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## Bradlee_40 (Aug 31, 2012)

I am wanting to hunt Whitetail and have purchased a 3d deer target. I can vitals 3 out of 5 shots usually out to 25 yards. I have been shooting for three weeks. Am I on the right track? Lets say I practice 2-3 times a week. What can I expect a year from now. 35 yards? And if I am accurate out to 35 is this lethal with a 45#@28" 62" recurve?


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Bradlee ... such results would suggets that you already way ahead of the pack ... 
Perhaps aim for a year from now to have 5 out of 5 in the zone at 25 yards ..... every time , regardless of conditions and angles ... I have seen few shooters that can do that with hunting weight gear on a 3d course


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## Bradlee_40 (Aug 31, 2012)

Thank you for the advice Ben!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Grant -
> 
> That was for bare bow. That included ANY bow shot with fingers and no sights. Yes, 60# hunting bows competed with 35# target bows and even compounds. You might be surprised how evenly the win ratios were.
> 
> ...


How often did one have to shoot AA scores to be considered an AA shooter? Because I can do it, just not everytime. I guess my league average would put me as high A. I'd sure like to be shooting above 280 on average. I'd be thrilled to do +275 FITA.

-Grant


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Grant -
> 
> That was for bare bow. That included ANY bow shot with fingers and no sights. Yes, 60# hunting bows competed with 35# target bows and even compounds. You might be surprised how evenly the win ratios were.
> 
> ...


What can you tell us about the other targets and rounds? I've been having a hard time finding details about the targets. I can often find the rules but not info on the targets for some of the "golden age" of the recurve rounds.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Grant - 

The old NFAA/NAA rules where, that your class was based on your two highest scores. So if you only shot 2 scores that averaged over a 280, you were AA. like it or not. 

Warbow - 

Probably take a book to cover all the targets/matches we used in detail, for indoor alone.

The NFAA, PAA and Chicago (predecessor of the indoor FITA) were at fixed distances (20 yds). Multi-spot targets for the NFAA and FITA (Vegas) were initially shot as separate rounds. 
Freeman (10, 15 and 20 yds - green face), Flint (10 to 30 yds, black and white or red and white faces), Mini Field, Hunter and Animal rounds were reduced scale versions of the outdoor events and shot from various distances. 
Then there were a number of novelty rounds.

Outdoor in addition to the Field rounds, we shot the American at 60, 50 and 40 yds, the PAA from 20 to 65 yds in 5 yds increments and a number of others, including the York. The only match that doesn't seen to have a direct counterpart these days is the old outdoor PAA, I believe the current "International" round is similar, but I've never been to one of those.

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

So its much like the system used for Metallic Silhouette matches. Personally I kind of like it, provided there is a sense of pride for shooting at a certain level and nobody sand-bags. Its a shame we haven't managed to hold onto something like that, it would give the beginners a fun way to compete amongst themselves while rewarding an experienced shooters ability to consistently shoot well.

-grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Grant - 

I wouldn't say that nobody sand-bagged... but most of it was just good natured ribbing, when some one fell a point or two short of getting "upped in class".

Viper1 out.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

These old games are a lot of fun with Trad equipment - the reason they are no longer popular in my opinion is that they are too easy for compound shooters. It is nothing to shoot 280's (AA Scores). A few years ago I shot leagues for 4 years straight without shooting a 4 with my CU setup-definately not the case with my recurve!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

that is true centershot - good compound shooters in in the high 290's and 300's - the really good ones are counting the number of x's they hit to determine the winner.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Even a half-decent bowhunter freestyle shooter should be shooting 295-300 within a year of starting. It seems like most Trad shooters will struggle for years to break 240 regularly and many never do, I think that has a lot to do with mindset and equipment.
Honestly with my hunting rig I doubt I could do it, but I'm not hunting this year due to deployment (story of my life). Then again I don't hunting with modern Trad equipment, I like things a little more primitive. With the distances we hunt around here it just doesn't matter.

While I do think that the overall trend is toward less competent Trad shooters I think that the best are still getting better. Just look at the state records for most currently shot targets and distances. While there may be a few that haven't moved since the glory days, you can be sure that most have been set within recent memory. That is with a much smaller section of the archery community using a stick and string. When I shoot a competition where the conditions are controlled (ie: not 3D) then I like to set myself against the records. The way I look at it is this: I'm competing against everyone who has ever competed at that level.

-Grant


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

In a lot of places guys don't even know what a good Trad shooter is. I know when I started (what got me seriously started) was watching BigCnyn shoot. He was stacking arrows in the yellow of a Vegas target and I was impressed. Until I witnessed him shooting in person, all I knew about Trad shooters was that I did not want to get behind them at a 3D shoot - they spent way too much time hunting missed arrows. The other Trad shooters in the area stunk - even the guys winning were terrible, not sure it is a whole lot better now but at least I know what is possible. Way too many use Trad as an excuse to shoot poorly - Trad bows can be shot accurately, but you have to work at it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

centershot - EXACTLY - and that is what is wrong with no-compete shoots like Denton Hill and Comptons. Most of us trad shooters only attend one big all trad shoot a year - and unfortunately it is usually one of these two - neither of which post scores so nobody has any idea what truly good shooting is and hence have no expectations and no goals to set!


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

And those attending the no compete shoots are comfortable with that - I am not going to judge them for doing what they like.
Nor will I be judged by any one else's shooting - good or bad.
My opinion of my abilities is the only one that matters to me.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I think that a lot of the problem today is the persistent "hunter vs. target shooter" mindset. 

"I wouldn't shoot that far at a real animal."
"It's just foam, doesn't matter where you hit on THIS one."
"Scores are for target shooters, I only care about how it would be hunting."

All things I've heard. When I started I only went off of what I read (Asbell's books) and heard (from people who really couldn't shoot to start with). The big thing was that I began to actually believe that to shoot well on targets you had to abondaon your hunting gear, change how you shot, and practice just for that. Boy was I wrong. The trouble is, it took me several years to see that, and now when I meet new traditional shooters many of them believe the very same things that I did. 

I think people use hunting with traditional as an excuse for poor shooting, because no one sees what they do in the woods. I think if people started to abandon that silly "us vs. them" nonsense people would start improving on average. Doesn't matter what it is, a good shooter should be able to hit it, or darn close.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

kegan said:


> I* think that a lot of the problem today is the persistent "hunter vs. target shooter" mindset.
> I think if people started to abandon that silly "us vs. them" nonsense people would start improving on average. Doesn't matter what it is, a good shooter should be able to hit it, or darn close*.



Well said !


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

I shoot with no sights and don't really use any reference points on my bow other than alignment. I am comfortable from 10 to 20 yards and can keep my shots in a 4" group. Most importantly to me though is what my first shot does. You only get one first shot at an animal. I want to be confident that I hit where I want it to.
I shoot without known yardage 

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Drawin Deadly said:


> I shoot with no sights and don't really use any reference points on my bow other than alignment. I am comfortable from 10 to 20 yards and can keep my shots in a 4" group. Most importantly to me though is what my first shot does. You only get one first shot at an animal. I want to be confident that I hit where I want it to.
> I shoot without known yardage
> 
> Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2


If you can shoot a 4" group at 20 yards then you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too.


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

kegan said:


> If you can shoot a 4" group at 20 yards then you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too.


If I practiced at those yardages and had reason to I would. I wouldnt attempt a shot at a live animal at those distances with my recurve though. I am not comfortable with that. Maybe someone else would be its not for me. I would rather use my compound at those distances.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

LOL, I can shoot sub-4", 5 shot groups at 20 yards ....every once in awhile! :wink:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

kegan said:


> If you can shoot a 4" group at 20 yards then you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too.


In theory this is true but this game has a very strong mental side and maintaining that form past 40y needs good mental discipline as well as good form.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

kegan said:


> If you can shoot a 4" group at 20 yards then you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too.


you were kidding right ?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

abundy0014 said:


> Hey guys i have been playing with traditional archery for the past few years and was out tonight and realized i suck lol at least in my mind. i have a small block target that has 4 squares painted on it. The squares are 2.25" x 2.25" and from 10 yards i some times hit them but usually miss them by a inch or more. Im sure its my form and i cheat by looking down the shaft but i wanted to hear your guys opinions on what you think is accurate. To me im accurate with my compound. from 20 yards i always 99.9% will hit inside those squares. So to me my shooting with the recurve stinks lol


I can hit a slipper most of the time from out to 20 yards... but I'm not shooting for burgers. I go hunting, and if anything is wearing a slipper... well call him flipper.... if I take the shot.... most of the time... can you hit a baseball? Can you hit a golf ball? I think you need to get away from the target to really see how well you shoot. Do some roving and my guess is that you'll do much better than on the block.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> If you can shoot a 4" group at 20 yards then you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too.


While I agree with this in principal, I think you should have qualified it a bit with "practice, you should be able to shoot pretty well at 30, 40, and 50 yards too."


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I didn't mean at game, whoops. I meant on target, and it still holds true. A 4" group at 20 yards would make you a top shooter, and if that's the case on targets you should be able to hold it together on the longer shots. Whether your mental game is there yet or not, an honest 4" group at 20 barebow means you are a notch above the rest.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I can only speak for myself & hunting is my main focus, over the years what works best for me is that 1st arrow of the day all my focus is puting that arrow in my hunting range 10 to 20 yards on the spot on the 3D target I pick give or take 2 inches, so I guess thats a 4 inch target for me, groups are not as important to me as that 1st arrow, I find it hard for me to keep that level of focus for a 100+ shots in the day,(all my respect to those that can, I fined that to be to hard for me) all my other shots are for fun, work out stress, shoot at different things, work out problems with my shooting, (picked up a bad habit in the 80's when my eyes started to get bad of moving my bow arm before the arrow hits to see my arrow flight, still bothers me to this day from time to time), if I miss my mark, I can usually figure out why most of the time, when the gremlins get into my shooting & I can't figure it out, what has worked for me is to go back to around 30 or 40 yards till I feel I'am doing ok, then I find usually the gremlins have gone away in my hunting range, LOL.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> I can hit a slipper most of the time from out to 20 yards... but I'm not shooting for burgers. I go hunting, and if anything is wearing a slipper... well call him flipper.... if I take the shot.... most of the time... can you hit a baseball? Can you hit a golf ball? I think you need to get away from the target to really see how well you shoot. Do some roving and my guess is that you'll do much better than on the block.


I've noticed I seem to do pretty well with shoes around the yard, if I practice them for a little bit, and I give them obnoxious malevolent personalities in my imagination, like some offshoot of a Killer Tomato movie. It's funny, how much each type of shooting seems to have a little bit of a specific set of mental requirements. My friends and I seem to shoot very well at spoons compared to big circles if you look at the resulting groups, if only because it's easier to focus on a small area with no big area, than a small area on a big object. If I was allowed, I would stick spoons on my paper targets in competition Similarly, once I get an arrow in the center, it seems easier to get the rest of them there. That's not a 'Hunting shot' excuse, because animals don't have spoons glued on them, but rather, I think, a lesson to learn to shoot different, if not specific, targets, and be conscious to focus on the small spot you want to hit, whether you do it from the beginning, or after whatever aiming alignment method of preference.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

kegan said:


> I didn't mean at game, whoops. I meant on target, and it still holds true. A 4" group at 20 yards would make you a top shooter, and if that's the case on targets you should be able to hold it together on the longer shots. Whether your mental game is there yet or not, an honest 4" group at 20 barebow means you are a notch above the rest.


Very true, though the consistency of draw length may be more important at longer distances where trajectory arc is greater. I can say that I only shoot like a top shooter all of the time. When I'm in a groove, I impress myself. However, truly top archers get into the groove faster, more often, and more consistently. Steve made a great point of not expecting to shoot in competition as well as you shoot during your best (and often most-remembered) practice performance.


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## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't know even how the rounds are scored (is it like bowling where a 300 is perfect) if I can hit the target I am happy. If I miss then that sucks but instinctive shooting takes a while to develop the instinct right? don't be too hard on yourself, just keep practicing


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> I've noticed I seem to do pretty well with shoes around the yard, if I practice them for a little bit, and I give them obnoxious malevolent personalities in my imagination, like some offshoot of a Killer Tomato movie. It's funny, how much each type of shooting seems to have a little bit of a specific set of mental requirements. My friends and I seem to shoot very well at spoons compared to big circles if you look at the resulting groups, if only because it's easier to focus on a small area with no big area, than a small area on a big object. If I was allowed, I would stick spoons on my paper targets in competition Similarly, once I get an arrow in the center, it seems easier to get the rest of them there. That's not a 'Hunting shot' excuse, because animals don't have spoons glued on them, but rather, I think, a lesson to learn to shoot different, if not specific, targets, and be conscious to focus on the small spot you want to hit, whether you do it from the beginning, or after whatever aiming alignment method of preference.



Thank you, I like the spoon thing, smallgame season is just days away, been shooting at empty TP rolls, read your post & found a 1/2 full bag of black plastic spoons, (most the tree rats around here are black), something new, thank you for the idea.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

I'll always shoot better at smaller targets. I use a bale press as a backstop and progressed from paper plate with buttoncap nails in the center to using golf wiffle balls as a target some time ago. Now, with hunting season approaching, I've started targeting stray strands of hay that stick out just enough to focus on, kinda like using a hair, spot, or crease on the deer.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BarneySlayer said:


> I've noticed I seem to do pretty well with shoes around the yard, if I practice them for a little bit, and *I give them obnoxious malevolent personalities *in my imagination, like some offshoot of a Killer Tomato movie. It's funny, how much each type of shooting seems to have a little bit of a specific set of mental requirements. My friends and I seem to shoot very well at spoons compared to big circles if you look at the resulting groups, if only because it's easier to focus on a small area with no big area, than a small area on a big object. If I was allowed, I would stick spoons on my paper targets in competition Similarly, once I get an arrow in the center, it seems easier to get the rest of them there. That's not a 'Hunting shot' excuse, because animals don't have spoons glued on them, but rather, I think, a lesson to learn to shoot different, if not specific, targets, and be conscious to focus on the small spot you want to hit, whether you do it from the beginning, or after whatever aiming alignment method of preference.


Hahaha.... :thumbs_up I get bored with targets on the third or so shot... but golfballs, have to try thespoons thing... :grin:, hanging rocks, spiders..... there is only one drawback there... and my arrow is "where??" but I agree with the idea that get away from the target and I personally think your focus becomes more intense... for us with target aversions... :grin:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Plastic flatware is nice, because it will stick nicely out of a foam block, and blows up when you hit it! And, you can recycle the scraps


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Sharp , I wonder how many archery deer tags would get sold this season if everyone had to qualify a 8 average on a 3D range with a trad bow ? :wink: I dont think the game dept in a lot states would get much revenue , pawn shops would be loaded with fine custom trad bows , crossbow sales would triple :darkbeer:


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Grant -
> 
> That was for bare bow. That included ANY bow shot with fingers and no sights. Yes, 60# hunting bows competed with 35# target bows and even compounds. You might be surprised how evenly the win ratios were.
> 
> ...


Viper what moved a archer up or back in class , if one fell short in (1) match did he fall back a class ? thanks


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

crosssticks that is sort of my point - if there is ever a proficiency test required - this sport is dead. If we are going to go out and hunt we ought to be able to at least average a vital hit when practicing - don't ya think? My point is that we readily accept mediocrity - we traditional shooters are actually shooting worse as a whole than guys were shooting with trad bows 50 years ago - instead of improving we are going downhill!


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Sharp I do agree on the proficiency required, I find lost deer every year long after season is over just big spots of hair or a backbone , but sticking a deer through the lungs at 15 to 20 yrds with a trad bow isnt to hard to do , what is hard is getting the shot dont u think and i find anything over 20 yds prolly you are going to get out jumped by a whitetail and wind up with a gut shot deer that U wont find . guess i want to add there is a lot more to practice than shooting a good score on a 3D course to be sucessful deer hunter .


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Obviously there is more to being a successful hunter than being an accurate shooter - but you cannot be a successful hunter if you cannot shoot accurately. Learning the body language of the animals you hunt, their habits and habitat, etc... is obviously essential to be a successfull hunter - but you could be the most successful woodsman in the world and consistently get deer within 15 or 20 yards and if you can't freakin' hit them - what good is it.

I would bet my bow that if you took 100 trad shooters and asked them to put 6 arrows in a row in the vitals of a 3D deer target at even 15 yards - the majority could not do it - and certainly not at 20 yards. I have been to several shoots where there was not a shot over 25 yards - most being between 10 and 20 yards and only a handful of shooters manage to average a vital hit on every target.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

cross - 

When the average of your two highest scores was in the bracket for the higher class, you where put in the higher class. 
If things went south after that you could request to be lowered in class ONCE. 

Also, when I was a bow hunting safety instructor for NYS , there was a proficiency test. You needed 3/5 shots in the vitals from 5 to 25 yds. It gave the instructors a good idea about how he handled a bow and a little insight into his mind set. It also helped to show the student his limitations. We also provided free instruction to those who needed/wanted it.

Viper1 out.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Obviously there is more to being a successful hunter than being an accurate shooter - but you cannot be a successful hunter if you cannot shoot accurately. Learning the body language of the animals you hunt, their habits and habitat, etc... is obviously essential to be a successfull hunter - but you could be the most successful woodsman in the world and consistently get deer within 15 or 20 yards and if you can't freakin' hit them - what good is it.
> 
> I would bet my bow that if you took 100 trad shooters and asked them to put 6 arrows in a row in the vitals of a 3D deer target at even 15 yards - the majority could not do it - and certainly not at 20 yards. I have been to several shoots where there was not a shot over 25 yards - most being between 10 and 20 yards and only a handful of shooters manage to average a vital hit on every target.


really , @ 15 yds, they got to get better .


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I would bet my bow that if you took 100 trad shooters and asked them to put 6 arrows in a row in the vitals of a 3D deer target at even 15 yards - the majority could not do it - and certainly not at 20 yards. I have been to several shoots where there was not a shot over 25 yards - most being between 10 and 20 yards and only a handful of shooters manage to average a vital hit on every target.


A little unfair to sit behind your keyboard and judge people in such a way without really knowing anything about them. Ive not shot a lot of tourneys in the States but I saw and met some good shooters at Denton hill a few years ago. I shot with Jeff Massey and Milton Callaway and we were getting a little competitive shooting 3D Turkeys in the head and Deer at 50 yards. They had a Deer with spot in vitals and a challenge to get closest to spot to win cash prize, it was more than 25y and I dont think I saw anybody miss the vitals on that Deer.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - unlike many - I do not just sit behind a computer - I go to tournaments all across the nation - but if you want to check it out from behingd you computer - go for it - look at even the IBO Trad World scores - their scoring is 5,810,11 - an 8 is a vital hit - see how many guys averaged an 8 - even at a World Championship. Check out the Rapids Archers - their scoring is 5,15,20 - see how many averaged a 15 - check out Cloverdale - get a copy of TBM and look at the ads for the shoots and see how many have websites and check out the scores - I don't care how many you check out - in most cases is is only the top 5-10% that manage to average a vital hit. Talk to Lee Vivian a member of this forum who also traveled all over hte country to trad shoots - much more than I have, as he worked for Tradtech/Lancaster - he will tell you the same thing I am certain.

And by the way I have not "judged" anyone - I stated a fact about how most trad shooters shoot.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Steve - many traditional archers really aren't very good but, personally I would rather hunt with a so so shot who was a very good hunter and knew his or her limitations than a crack shot that who goes by the theory "if they aren't flying nothing is dying" - there are flip sides to every coin and somewhere in the middle is the best solution.

Honestly I think that over confidence in a compounds accuracy creates as many wounded animals as lack of proficiency with a stick bow every year - this is just what I think I have ZERO facts to back it up so don't ask.

Matt


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

A lot of differnt factors go into tourney shooting shooting 20 3Ds it might be the Archer shoots well first 10 targets and then fades with thier concentration, I see this a lot in my own tourney shooting. The archers expectations may be different and finds tourney too much pressure apposed to taking a hunting shot.

Unless you can provide proof that 3D ability directly relates to Bowhunting ability it is then only your opinion/speculation of what happens with an average shooter at 3D and what he is able do in Bowhunting, as Matt said a of other factors come into play.

You are in a prime position with your 3D shooting ability to encourage Bowhunters to become better shots but they way you post here youre making no friends and stand little chance to influence average shooters to become better shots. If you really want to do something positive then get out there and offer encouragement this is I think is a lot more effective than what youre posting at the moment.


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## Leon Hinton (Jul 4, 2010)

Good accuracy to me is 3 arrows inside a 4" circle at 25' and closer. Sometimes I shoot better than that sometimes I don't.LH


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve do you bowhunt? Have you ever bowhunted? 

The highest pressure shot any archer will make is one on a live animal that they want to kill - especially if it is one considered "trophy". I have literally - and i mean LITERALLY been hyperventilating so bad that I could not shoot - that happened twice. Everytime I am going to shoot a deer I get some degree of hyperventilation - and my heart is beating so freakin hard you would swear that the deer can hear it - that does not happen on the 3D range - even at the most high pressure shots I have taken at a tournament - never have I hyperventilated or had my heart beat as hard as when I am going to shoot an animal.

When bowhunting many times i it is freezing out I have hunted when it is below zero, in the rain, with bulky clothes on - taking a shot after sitting for two hours in the freezing cold - nothing in a tournament compares to this.

Tournament shooting is EASY compared to bowhunting. 

And remember I said an AVERAGE of an 8 (vitals) - not an 8 on every target - one can get fives and even misses and still AVERAGE a vital hit on every target - there are no averages when hunting - the shot is either good or it is bad - and there usually are no second chances - epecially on a mature whitetail buck..

And as far as offering encouragement - why do you think I teach archery at the public school? Why do you think I give traditional archery demonstrations at local festivals, why do you think I have tens of thousands of hits on the videos I have made to help traditional archers? 

Just because a handful of guys that disagree with me (you being one) don't like me does not mean that I am not out there helping archers and spreading this great sport.

And I happend to believe doing everthing I can to discourage shoots like Compton and Denton Hill from not posting scores is helping this sport, I happen to think that getting guys to not be satisified with medocrity in their shooting is helping this sport, that getting guys to strive to shoot well enough to average at least a vital hit on any 3D range set up at reasonable hunting distances is helping this sport.


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## Tacoma (Jul 13, 2005)

You must have REALLY big hands. :tongue:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

3D is generally shot at farther distances than actual hunting, at least around here. Our club will have a few shots less than twenty yards, but the compounders want a challenging course. One guy at our club has shot more than 150 deer and he says only a couple of them were farther than 15 yards. 

I shot 240 something at indoor 3D, ~ 27 yards and under, but not outdoors.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

arrowwood - I have found that at mixed shoots - compound and trad - you tend to see longer shots for trad - but not at the all trad shoots - even at the IBO Worlds there were only a few past 25 yards


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Just curious, what's the farthest you've shot at a live deer?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think the furthest shot I ever took as hot at a live deer was 40 yards with a compound shot instinctive - my first year bowhunting - and I hit it right through the heart (total beginners luck). Since then I would guess that I have not shot at a deer more than 25 or 30 yards. I don't judge distance so i can't say for sure - but that is a guess - I usually set up my stands what I would guess is about 20 yards or so from the trail or where I expect to see the animals. In fact - I am just about to head out and set up some stands now - our season opens next weekend


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

The highest pressure shot any archer will make is one on a live animal that they want to kill - especially if it is one considered "trophy". I have literally - and i mean LITERALLY been hyperventilating so bad that I could not shoot - that happened twice.

sounds like buck feaver, a 3D score average of 8 wont cure it, a steady diet of deer stake would help :wink:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

crossxsticks said:


> The highest pressure shot any archer will make is one on a live animal that they want to kill - especially if it is one considered "trophy". I have literally - and i mean LITERALLY been hyperventilating so bad that I could not shoot - that happened twice.
> 
> *sounds like buck feaver, a 3D score average of 8 wont cure it*, a steady diet of deer stake would help :wink:


Who wants to cure it...if I ever quit feeling like I'm having a heart attack in the presence of a nice buck I'll quit hunting and take up golf...:wink:


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Easykeeper said:


> Who wants to cure it...if I ever quit feeling like I'm having a heart attack in the presence of a nice buck I'll quit hunting and take up golf...:wink:


yup yup , I got the same feaver symptoms my self .


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

3D shooting isn't the same as hunting and the scores don't directly correlate. A good shot on foam will probably have better odds of connecting successfully on an animal but not always. The hunting shot is all about timing and keeping your cool. It's also about setting yourself up to take clean shots at relaxed animals well within your shooting range. I go to plenty of 3D shoots and sometimes they just don't set up realistic shots for the majority of traditional shooters. Your average trad guy starts limiting out at around 20 yards. Around here most courses are set with the majority of targets over 20+. So, your average guy approaches each shot knowing it's past the edge of his comfort zone. Not conducive to great scores. Now, we can argue the skill level needs to improve but there are far more trad hunters who won't shoot over 20 yards than those who will. So, if the skill level is good within the range needed, well, who's to say that isn't good enough. 

That said, I do believe the overall level of shooting proficiency could improve but I think that would require a large change in the perceptions and notions of traditional archers. There's a lot of angst over things like draw weight, aiming methods, etc and how a person will be percieved. I personally feel if people experimented more with simple aiming techniques and weren't made to feel like it's wrong because (insert favorite trad author) said so alot of folks would have more confidence. But, that's another discussion.

And, Matt, you'd be amazed how many compound shooters don't connect on critters or fail to kill them cleanly. Sometimes overconfidence in the ability to shoot long, alot of times in the "killing power" of the bow. Not a dig at compound shooters as I own and hunt with them, too. But, the first year I worked at the archery shop I was flat out amazed at the number of really, really good compound shooters who had really terrible luck. So, that's why I don't think its just the ability to kill foam that makes a good shot on animals. There's a certain killer instinct that all the good hunters I know have and some people just don't have it.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Good post Str8:thumbs_up


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

steve morley said:


> A lot of differnt factors go into tourney shooting shooting 20 3Ds it might be the Archer shoots well first 10 targets and then fades with thier concentration, I see this a lot in my own tourney shooting. The archers expectations may be different and finds tourney too much pressure apposed to taking a hunting shot.
> 
> Unless you can provide proof that 3D ability directly relates to Bowhunting ability it is then only your opinion/speculation of what happens with an average shooter at 3D and what he is able do in Bowhunting, as Matt said a of other factors come into play.
> 
> You are in a prime position with your 3D shooting ability to encourage Bowhunters to become better shots but they way you post here youre making no friends and stand little chance to influence average shooters to become better shots. If you really want to do something positive then get out there and offer encouragement this is I think is a lot more effective than what youre posting at the moment.


Steve i respect you and your amazing shooting ability but i disagree, especially with your last statement. sharp is a great shot and great mentor to us who dont have the experience yet. i have learned alot from him and his amazing ability to shoot instinctive , alot of people argue with him because they dont understande his ways but i do and have become a better archer because of him.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

airwolf said:


> Steve i respect you and your amazing shooting ability but i disagree, especially with your last statement. sharp is a great shot and great mentor to us who dont have the experience yet. i have learned alot from him and his amazing ability to shoot instinctive , alot of people argue with him because they dont understande his ways but i do and have become a better archer because of him.


People argue with Sharp because he's arrogant, and naive with a limited world view. He may be expert in what he's expert in, but he has no clue as to the rest of the world around him.... but he thinks he does.... and that is why people argue with him. Lack of humility might be another.... in my opinion.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

airwolf said:


> sharp is a great shot and great mentor to us who dont have the experience yet.


This is what I meant, that sharp is a great IBO shot and has a greater chance than most other people of influencing people to shoot to a higher standard, his posts I feel are the worst approch to the issue, he will just piss archers off by telling them theyre poor shots and have no right bowhunting, how does this attitude help imrove things?


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

str8Shooter, well said, :thumbs_up


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Str8 - At the IBO Worlds last year - where some of the best shots in the world competed - the vast majority of the shots were less than 25 yards - and even there very few averaged a vital hit. At Rapids Archers All Trad shoot there was maybe three or four shots out of 60 targets that were past 20 yards and they were maybe 25 yards and still the VAST MAJORITY of the hundreds of shooters there could not average a vital hit.

The idea that at 3D shoots the shots are too far or beyond reasonable hunting distance is usually only true at mixed shoots where compounds and trad guys shoot together - I have never seen it at a trad only shoot.

And Steve - please don't build strawman arguments around me - I have never said that anyone has no business hunting - what I have said is that we should all strive to average a vital hit - wow - how horrible, arrogant, and argumentative of me - hey rattus


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Str8 - At the IBO Worlds last year - where some of the best shots in the world competed - the vast majority of the shots were less than 25 yards - and even there very few averaged a vital hit. At Rapids Archers All Trad shoot there was maybe three or four shots out of 60 targets that were past 20 yards and they were maybe 25 yards and still the VAST MAJORITY of the hundreds of shooters there could not average a vital hit.
> 
> The idea that at 3D shoots the shots are too far or beyond reasonable hunting distance is usually only true at mixed shoots where compounds and trad guys shoot together - I have never seen it at a trad only shoot.
> 
> And Steve - please don't build strawman arguments around me - I have never said that anyone has no business hunting - what I have said is that we should all strive to average a vital hit - wow - how horrible, arrogant, and argumentative of me - hey rattus


Sharp... when you disagree with me you are arrogant, argumentative and bullying.... :grin: See.... when you respond with a reasonable argument, your strengths sharp are highighted. Where you and I got off on a bad footing was originally your insistance that lighter faster arrows penetrate further than do heavier arrows... and you made that a mantra. We further got off on a wrong start by your contiued foray into something I don't think you have experience in... and again... that is my opinion and that is what some call extreme FOC. When you don't give latitude to other peoples experience, they (well me anyway) love to find ways to needle you at every opportunity. However, I always give you credit for what you experience, and have always said that your testing, experience, and whatever are all valid... *for you! That is your experience and i take your word for it.* It is when you try to project your experience onto others is where we come to disagreement.

You give me mine, I'll give you yours, and we can debait those others of whom we know not first hand... how's that... :grin:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I agree with Sharpy in that in general the Traditional community is poor in the accuracy department. Many are more interested in collecting vintage or “purdy” bows then being accurate with their chosen weapon. Most avoid any type of score card like it's the plague. It’s a big commitment to learn to shoot well. I attended Compton once and thought it was a joke. Four 3D ranges and no score cards?

As a 3 year convert to stickbows I disagree slightly with his “averaging 8” philosophy on 3Ds as a benchmark. I usually rank in the top 1/3 of the local and statewide shooters and shoot 7-7.5 average at 3Ds (only broke 8.0 once), however I do not sweat the less then 8 given that most courses have an assortment of turkeys, skunks, badgers, and other small targets that can give me fits. Naturally I am striving to improve and admit that I’m still only a mediocre shot at this point. 

But as a gap shooter I’m very good at deer targets at deer hunting distances (easily average over 8) and use that as my “go / no go” decision for whether I’m prepared or not for hunting. 

My 2 cents worth…


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

odd I find you to be arrogant, agumentative and a bully as well - at least we have something in common. I don't really care if you don't like what I have found - I put what I found on film and have challenged anyone to do some testing themselves and not just believe something becuase lots of people say it - I proved that out of my bow - the lighter faster arrow penetrated more than the slower heavier arrow - sorry that you don't like that I did that and that I have challnged others to test this stuff themselves.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> odd I find you to be arrogant, agumentative and a bully as well - at least we have something in common. I don't really care if you don't like what I have found - I put what I found on film and have challenged anyone to do some testing themselves and not just believe something becuase lots of people say it - I proved that out of my bow - the lighter faster arrow penetrated more than the slower heavier arrow - sorry that you don't like that I did that and that I have challnged others to test this stuff themselves.


Oh well........ *sigh*


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

What is accurate in trad? Well to me it's hitting what you are aiming at. At any givin distance you are capable. Yes most Trad shooters I have seen aren't very accurate. I can tell you if you want to be accurate you must practice more than you watch TV. From what I've read most of you think 15 to 25yds is good enough well it's not. If 10yds is a slam dunk and 25 yds is not you need to shoot longer distances. Get out on the field range and shoot 80yds. Once you can hit 60, 70 and 80yds 25yds will be a slam dunk. Quit limiting your selves at just 3d's. If you want to average that 8 that Sharp keeps talking about practice longer shot and the close one like 25 to 30yds will be easy. And then you will know what accuracy is. If you choose just to shoot 20 yds because that is what your hunting distance is you will never know what accuracy is.
Gary


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

There is no reason in the world why people can't shoot 40-60yds accurately with recurve or longbow. Go to the UK where those styles are required to use wood arrows as well and you would be amazed at the level of accuracy. You will find in the HT and AFB classes(not called trad there) .
I think the old hunch over and snap shoot mentality that you get here comes from hunters who think that is the trad and instinctive way because that is how Fred Bear shot. Well from what I can gather he was an average shot at best. Make the targets longer and tougher and force people to learn how to shoot if they want to compete.
SBH is right that an average of 8 per target should be what you strive for but it takes 9+ at the big shoots now.
I have attended Compton and Hawkeye and they are both the easiest ranges you will ever find but the lost arrow buckets always seem to be full. The amount of times I've heard the old "I can't get to full draw shooting 3ds but I can at live game" bull crap while I'm there. No guys, you're rubbish snap shooters here and you should never be allowed anywhere near a live animal with a bow in your hands. Maybe a test of shooting ability for hunters is needed because if you hit a rubber deer up the arse from 20yds at a fun shoot, when you are under this huge pressure that SBH talks about, do you really think you will nail that buck in the vitals?


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Sir I am a Born Free American , I live here by Choice, I will never go to a socialist country and you might aught to think twice about calling me rubbish.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I couldn't care less where anyone lives or what their political views are, but the shooters I refer to are for want of a better word, rubbish. As hunters, if you want a different word, try dangerous.
Week in week out I shoot with "Trad" bowhunters at 3D shoots. Scoring sub 200 and missing 30% of the targets is not unusual yet they will still be in tree stands thinking they can kill deer next month.





crossxsticks said:


> Sir I am a Born Free American , I live here by Choice, I will never go to a socialist country and you might aught to think twice about calling me rubbish.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> I couldn't care less where anyone lives or what their political views are, but the shooters I refer to are for want of a better word, rubbish. As hunters, if you want a different word, try dangerous.
> Week in week out I shoot with "Trad" bowhunters at 3D shoots. Scoring sub 200 and missing 30% of the targets is not unusual yet they will still be in tree stands thinking they can kill deer next month.


 All hunters for lack of skill or just bad luck don't take a dear every season , and all that go to shoots that are open to the public dont shoot as good as you would like prolly but they go to enjoy them selves and have a good time , if you dont like it why dont you go else where or shoot by your self . dangerous ha, me calling you rubbish is like me calling you crap i would not do that but  guess you dont mind.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

*Please stay on topic. No need to take things personal. *


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Before mr soap box started the post was about accuracy and from what I see a significant percentage of "traditional" hunters are not good enough to even think about trying to kill live game.
My definition of their shooting as rubbish is just use of a noun, I could just have easily said crap you are correct and I am glad they have fun and enjoy themselves but if they can't hit any where near an intended target at 20yds they should perhaps find some other means of hunting.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

This place is like the 3 rd grade


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Only sharp can turn praise from me into and out and out attack. 




steve morley said:


> This is what I meant, that sharp is a great IBO shot and has a greater chance than most other people of influencing people to shoot to a higher standard, his posts I feel are the worst approch to the issue, he will just piss archers off by telling them theyre poor shots and have no right bowhunting, how does this attitude help imrove things?


I think no matter how you dress it up if you said to people you should be averaging 8 on every 3D most will take it as an insult to their shooting and Bowhunting accuracy. A similar thing was said in the NFAS about people shooting NFAS 3Ds, that they should not attend the Nationals with reaching a certain shooting level, rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. and words like "elitist attitude" was thrown around. 



As 10s of thousand shooters watch your Youtube video I suggest you make some clips showing you shooting 6 arrows in the vitals at various distances 10y, 15y, 20y and 25y, set it up as a Bowhunting challenge and see if you can inspire people to try the same thing.:thumbs_up

I look forward to seeing it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> Only sharp can turn praise from me into and out and out attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah... I got the same feeling... :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The NFAS proposed a rule on the grounds of safety that everybody had to hand in a score card, it was a way for the officials to make sure everybody came back off the course safely, might be worth proposing the same rule for IBO.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Just looked up some numbers from IBO events because I keep hearing only 5-10% of attendees barely average 8 or better. Sounds fishy so I took the time to look at results. 

In actuality the percentage of shooters averaging over an 8 at the IBO Trad Worlds over the last few years is much greater than 5-10%. If that were the case in a class of 30 only 1.5 - 3 people averaged 8 or higher. In reality, the number of shooters over 8 pts. per target is closer to 30-35% in any given class. If you take the average down a half pt. (7.5 pts/ target or a 300+ on 40 targets) the number of people rises to over 50%. So, the reality is there are more people than you think capable of averaging kill shots all day long out to 25-30 yards. Also, the stress some people put upon themselves to perform well can be extremely self destructive and an average can spiral down quick. There's also many people who show up as first timers who don't have competitive experience yet have the potential to shoot very well. 

I can't vouch for any of the big trad only shoots, I've never really been to any of them. I do know many people show up at those events to enjoy other archers who enjoy similar equipment. I'm sure there's lots of new archers, recreational archers and folks who just want to have fun. If every shoot was competitive and everytime someone who shot well ridiculed the people who didn't there would be far fewer people in the sport of traditional archery. 

You also hear all the time the old time shooters were light years better... I wonder about that. I'd be willing to bet the breakdowns were similar... maybe the average guy was a bit better but probably not by leaps and bounds. If there is one thing that the old time shooters did differently it was most guys shot much lighter poundage and there was far less stigma about aiming and form. The resurgence of trad in the 80's certainly brought a lot of people back into the sport but at the same time it suppressed a lot of older "common" knowledge and I think that's finally starting to change.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Just looked up some numbers from IBO events because I keep hearing only 5-10% of attendees barely average 8 or better. Sounds fishy so I took the time to look at results.
> 
> In actuality the percentage of shooters averaging over an 8 at the IBO Trad Worlds over the last few years is much greater than 5-10%. If that were the case in a class of 30 only 1.5 - 3 people averaged 8 or higher. In reality, the number of shooters over 8 pts. per target is closer to 30-35% in any given class. If you take the average down a half pt. (7.5 pts/ target or a 300+ on 40 targets) the number of people rises to over 50%. So, the reality is there are more people than you think capable of averaging kill shots all day long out to 25-30 yards. Also, the stress some people put upon themselves to perform well can be extremely self destructive and an average can spiral down quick. There's also many people who show up as first timers who don't have competitive experience yet have the potential to shoot very well.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Just looked up some numbers from IBO events because I keep hearing only 5-10% of attendees barely average 8 or better. Sounds fishy so I took the time to look at results.
> 
> In actuality the percentage of shooters averaging over an 8 at the IBO Trad Worlds over the last few years is much greater than 5-10%. If that were the case in a class of 30 only 1.5 - 3 people averaged 8 or higher. In reality, the number of shooters over 8 pts. per target is closer to 30-35% in any given class. If you take the average down a half pt. (7.5 pts/ target or a 300+ on 40 targets) the number of people rises to over 50%. So, the reality is there are more people than you think capable of averaging kill shots all day long out to 25-30 yards. Also, the stress some people put upon themselves to perform well can be extremely self destructive and an average can spiral down quick. There's also many people who show up as first timers who don't have competitive experience yet have the potential to shoot very well.
> 
> ...


I don't know about old time shooters, but there is enough video/8mm of guys like Bear, Hill, Jennings, shepley and even some of the other greats... like wensel and so forth to realize that shot placement was important but not critical... if you know where I'm going with this. I think shooters today are far more concerned about accurate shot placement and effective range than they were in the old days... and shots even at running game were expected... :grin: Bring this up in conversation today :grin: 

As for better, I know that those that helped me, had their shooting style down. Today you call this form. I think that dedication to the sport was probably more intense to those in it back then and I've no doubt that they were probably more able to keep up with their skills daily and throughout the year. This is conjecture on my part, but those old timers here were hunting every weekend and shooting every day and hanging at the archery shop two or three days a week. Life today I think takes from some of this...

But as someone has said... we're all archery... :grin:


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Rattus, 
You're absolutely correct. I've got a pile of archery books from the heyday of archery (30's -70's). Many of the shots advocated and detailed in those books would be considered unethical by today's standards. Certainly killing shots but of much lower percentage than your broadside/ quartering away angles. As you say, the standards of the time were different. The sport of bowhunting was still in it's infancy. That certainly doesn't mean hunters were less responsible just the expectations were different.

Furthermore, I think you're right about the time spent shooting. Also, the game was different. Today, the emphasis for most hunting archers is 3D set at realistic hunting distances. Back than the game to play was field archery. The required skill set to shoot proficiently out to 80 yards was different and required greater amounts of practice. In some ways it is difficult to compare because the archers from than didn't play the games we do. Sure, we can shoot field archery but finding full courses in many areas is very difficult as opposed to 3D shoots. I speak in general terms as this can be specific to the region you live in. The last field shoot I attended a few years ago was over an hour and a half drive and got cancelled six targets in due to weather. I wanted to attend other shoots but there was nothing within a four hour drive. If I had the time to do it I would but between work and family I can't justify spending an entire day away to participate at a shoot where I'd be the only shooter in the trad class. 

One thing that comes up on these threads that I find interesting is a little bit of antagonism between your short range 3D/ hunter types and the guys who participate in the longer range endeavors like field and FITA. The 3D types tend to poo-poo the long range stuff as unnecessary and irrelevant. On the flip side the the more target oriented field types often downgrade the skill to be a short range specialist, saying until you learn to shoot 40+ yards you're missing out. Both sides are correct to a point but I think these discussions would be much better if both types realized there are very specific skills needed to become proficient at both. My good buddy always says you can be a jack of all trades and master of none. At some point, an archer needs to decide which type of shooting they enjoy the best and focus on that. Setting up archery equipment is always a compromise for the game you play. Personally, as a hunter and 3D shooter I optimize my setup to increase my odds of making good shots under 40 yards. I don't shoot my setup as well at long stuff because of the large amount of holdover I have on further targets but that's cool cuz' it fits my needs. If I shot more field and long distance I'd adjust my setup to facilitate easier aiming but I know from personal experience I lose some of the precision I have at closer targets. So, in the end it's about picking your poison. I certainly respect shooters from both disciplines though. 

My point I'm making as it pertains to the topic of accuracy is that I believe many people could benefit from picking the style and type of shooting they do and working to setup their equipment and form to make it easier. There are many methods which work but I think too many people believe anything other than the popular methods in print are shortcuts. The reality is the only method that is right is the one that gives you the best results, not the one which so-and-so says is trad or the most vocal people online say is best.

Sorry to ramble... just thinking out loud...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Good post with the percentages Str8, as you know I shoot both Long range Field/3D as well as short range WA3D both require slightly differnt bow setups to do well in them but I kept my rig set for Field just to make life easier for me, Although I have big short range gaps it doesnt bother me as its so well ingrained.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Str8Shooter, thanks for the percentages and Info


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## minnie3 (Jul 28, 2009)

now about those percentages, i wonder if they were from comps where 11's are scored. this would make some difference to percentages.

our 3d association here in australia is based upon and follows IBO. except we don't score the 11 ring and we shoot 50 targets for a score out of 500. 30y maximum unmarked. 5 ranges of 10 targets. so an average of 8 would give a 400 score.

there's a few doing it here. and quite a few more at the 7.5% chasing them.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Straight 8 - you are correct about 30% - I did not actually go and run the numbers - but even still - only 30% at a World Championship managed to average a vital hit? Remember - a World Championship for the most part is going to attract the better or best shots - so from the best of us trad shooters - only 30 out of a 100 can average a vital hit - I think that still makes the point I was getting at.

If you take a typical all trad shoot the results are much different - take the Rapids Archers Annual Trad Shoot - a shoot that attracks between 400 and 700 shooters a year - depeneding on the year. Last year ony 24 shooters averaged a vital hit. 

There scoring is a bit tougher - it is 20, 15, 5 - so bad shots hurt a bit more - but they also have a few bonus targets that I allowed as part of the everage. To average a vital hit one must score 900 or better - the course is 60 targets. While the scoring is a bit tougher the shots are much easier - last year I don't think there were more than a few targets at 25 yards or so - most were between 10 and 20 yards.

Here is their results page: http://www.rapidsarchery.org/Results.html - remember - the results you see are ony those who turned in their score cards - the majority of shooters do not turn them in - but I would bet my bow that anyone scoring 900 or better did and that all who did not turn in their cards scored MUCH lower than 900.

While I don't know the exact numbers last year - lets say that they had the lower number of 400 shooters total - only 24 averaged a vital hit - that is 6% of the total shooters that got a vital hit.

Whatever the case - we need to raise the bar in this sport - we all need to help others see just how accurate one can shoot a traditional bow - we need to encourage guys to strive for an average of a vital hit and to be the best shots that they can.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

I've been staying out of this thread, largely because I avoid any organized competitions (don't even like to play cards, etc), so there's been a lot said here that may well be written in Greek, for all I know. On the other hand, reading from a perspective of near-total ignorance of the formal/organized portions of this discussion leaves me focusing on some comments that are real gems, written by several different members, on the surface often arguing opposing points of view. 

But to my mind, here's the gold standard:



sharpbroadhead said:


> ...Whatever the case - we need to raise the bar in this sport - we all need to help others see just how accurate one can shoot a traditional bow - we need to encourage guys to strive for an average of a vital hit and to be the best shots that they can.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jusoldave said:


> I've been staying out of this thread, largely because I avoid any organized competitions (don't even like to play cards, etc), so there's been a lot said here that may well be written in Greek, for all I know. On the other hand, reading from a perspective of near-total ignorance of the formal/organized portions of this discussion leaves me focusing on some comments that are real gems, written by several different members, on the surface often arguing opposing points of view.
> 
> But to my mind, here's the gold standard:


You know its funny, thinking about this "gold standard". Not long ago we had a thread that was started asking the question of whether we should have a "standard" or test before you can go hunting. What I drew from that was that Talk is Cheap. Ask that question again... and you might get an entirely different answer from we need to raise the standard.. as long as you don't have to prove yourself.

I am not expert, nor probably as good as some novices in my shooting. I do ok on rocks, golfballs and dirt buttons, but lousy on a target... after say the second or third shot at my effective range. Knowing that is probably more important than anything else if you're going to stick to it in the field. I can put 10 of 10 in a bucket at 22 yards. That means probably that my effective hunting range is that or less. I let a lot of game walk. When you are talking about vitals, you are talking not only shot placement, you are also talking about taking the shot.

Why I think ego enters into this more than effort, is that I learned on AT that the Boy Scouts scored their game by subtracting points for shots out of the kill zone. I liked that idea, but for some reason, others didn't and I think that they discontinued the practice. What I think matters most is that if you take the shot, you hit your target. I think knowing when not to take the shot as important. If you had a game that credited you with not taking the shot (and I can hear the criticism of this already) when it came to hunting, you'd know for sure how you'd do when you did take the shot. 

Right now, we encourage people to "stretch". I don't think that to be as important as nailing the shot you do take. Hunting is mental anyway. Be smart and get close. Harder than it looks, but good hunters will tell you that woodsmanship trumps all things when hunting... and i hear the protest already... but I was just apprised of a situation where a guy was heading into his favorite spot only to find it occupied. He didn't know what to do. Have you ever been in that situation? I have and it's frustrating if you don't know the game you're hunting. Woodsmanship... That puts you into the scheme for the shot... in my opinion.

Raising the bar. I totally agree... but just how far do we take it. I'm guessing out loud here, that if you suggest that you have to prove yourself, like I have to when being guided and on certain private hunts where they like to know you are not going out to just "draw blood", there will be howls of protest, yet we talk about it all the time. Personally I don't care... I'm old enough now to know I can enjoy the hunt without taking a shot. 

Anyways... musings of an old man...  :beer:


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Being, errr... _not young_, myself, and having bowhunted for a long time, I hear ya, rattus.

Honestly, I'm not really sure just what I'd think of states mandating a demonstration of archery ability (to purchase archery tags), but in general, I think I'm in favor of it. It certainly would prevent the tyroes and keyboard/barroom snipers from wounding a lot of animals. Just last week, I had a new "bowhunter" proudly tell me he'd "killed" his first mulie buck this season... by shooting him in the left front pastern at "seventy" (he claimed) yards! (Guy claimed he'd tracked the wounded buck until he found him lying dead. OK; it may be possible... just not very likely.)

On the other hand, the few guys I'd hunt with aren't happy with their performance if they hit 'em a little high in the lungs, or a couple inches farther back than they'd planned. So there's hunters, and then there's other hunters...

Personally, I feel confident shooting vitals-sized targets out to 30-35 yds with my sticks. But I still will risk losing a shooting opportunity, in order to get closer, rather than launch a shot on a live animal at the limits of my confidence/ability.

_"Right now, we encourage people to "stretch". I don't think that to be as important as nailing the shot you do take."_: I see several people here in this thread, who think they're on opposing sides of a debate, saying exactly that. I don't see anything at all wrong with stretching our range - on a target field; I do believe that IF any archer is going to bowhunt, he/she needs to realize and accept that there's a major difference between the shots he/she can "confidently" take at an inanimate target, and what shots he/she can ethically make on a live animal. 

Not that I'm the Ethics Police in any way, shape or form, but personally, I refuse to take any shot at live game that I don't KNOW I'm going to hit - "hit" being the point of aim, not the animal in general.

So my archery hunting buddies and I play a lot of games; we have a lot of fun shooting together; we do a lot of cheering the good shots, and laughing with each other about the woopsies.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

IMHO, if you are gonna do it for bowhunters, then you should also do it for gun hunters. I know of a lot of guys who gutshoot deer all season with highpowered rifles and scopes that make an animal look like its sittin in your lap from 200yds. All you ethics police better watch what you wish for, or we'll get it and then some. Problem is, when you leave it to a government official to make up rules like shooting qualifications to get a deer tag, you never know what you'll get. You could get an anti or some very ill-informed individual in there who would set the bar so high, none of you would qualify. That is where it is our job to teach the next generation to be better than we are, starting them as young as possible... and I dont necessarily mean in shooting in and of itself... I mean in picking/limiting their shots to their abilities.

Just my opinion.

Dave


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I just can't believe that people actually turn up to non competitive shoots and shoots arrows and enjoy each others company ... those dastardly cowards !!!

They are obviously killing this sport with the idea of participation and fun and Camaraderie ...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Benofthehood, I for one am not saying that people shouldn't do that. They are huge, fun and very important events but as they are populated almost entirely by bowhunters then you would hope to see a competent level of shooting at those ultra short targets, trouble is that many there can't hit a cows arse with a banjo but still feel they are ok to go hunt.
I am all for longer shots on 3D ranges but getting good at the 40-50yd 3D really makes you a better shot at 25yds too which seems to be a good hunting range.
As far as basic competency test for hunters, hell yes, bow and gun ability should be tested every 3 years maybe.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

WOW - Jon - now you stepped in it - time to get the pop corn - LOL

Mat


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

lol ... pop corn time eh !!!!!

Jon ... I am in great favour of compeitive tourneys and do most of my archery these days geared towards such .. Fita, IFAA and whatever else I can have a crack at once I get rid of this darn TP ! ... But I also love the idea of whacking targets and just mucking about with thousands of other archers ........ and I agree I'd like to see the targets a bit further out sometimes ... maybe thats why I love Field so much .......

I also realise that generally the standard of single string archery is somewhat lacking compared to what it could be imho ... And I also , like you wish that sometimes it was all more "archery" focused rather than hunting focused .. v but I think excellence in the former/helps excellence in the latter 

but given your bowhunter test comments I am going to get another coffee and put me feet up ..... just so I can enjoy the show


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

You know me Matt, never shy away from a subject if it makes good debate 
I really thought that the hunter safety course here would require you to demonstrate at least a basic ability to shoot but no. I know of a girl who has just passed it and she misses 50%+ of the 40 targets on a 3D course and score maybe 75 points yet she is now allowed to go deer hunting with that same 40#@28" bow she draws back 25". You couldn't make this stuff up could you.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Bigjono, I just realized that I share your heritage... mothers family is Scottish. Had to look up Caledonia, lol. Supposedly we were highlanders... Kyle was mothers maiden name. Got the family crest at grandmothers house. I'll have to get it out and look it up again, regarding details of exactly where we were located and all.

Dave


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

benofthehood - my issue is not with people who do not want to compete or turn in score cards or even keep score. At virtually any 3D shoot I have attended you could shoot it just for fun - OR you could compete and turn in a score card - but at shoots like Comptons and Denton Hill - that option is not there - there is no option for those who would want to compete - or at the very least see posted scores so that a guy has some idea what is good shooting and what to strive for.

Most trad shooters here in the US are satisfied with mediocre shooting and the reason they are is becuase they don't know any better - they really do not realize just how good one can get with a trad bow - so they are satisfied with how they shoot. I was the same way - I was averaging in the 6 range and winning local shoots in the trad division and was being told by people that I was one of the best shots that they ever saw with a trad bow - now that is freakin' sad. 

It was not until I attended my first big all traditional shot that was competetive and posted scores that I could see just what was possible with this equipment - and realized that I was far from shooting good. Seeing those scores inspired me to improve and shoot better - had I never went to that big al trad shoot and saw those scores - I would likely be like most trad shooters today and satisified with mediocre shooting.

and btw - I do not support profficiency tests - though if they ever did become law it would be sort of poetic - because I promise you that the trad police would be the ones to fail - with all their high and might "ethics" we would find that they are the most innacurate guys out there.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bigjono said:


> You know me Matt, never shy away from a subject if it makes good debate
> I really thought that the hunter safety course here would require you to demonstrate at least a basic ability to shoot but no. I know of a girl who has just passed it and she misses 50%+ of the 40 targets on a 3D course and score maybe 75 points yet she is now allowed to go deer hunting with that same 40#@28" bow she draws back 25". You couldn't make this stuff up could you.


There are two different Hunters Education Courses. One is part of IHEA, International Hunters Education Association, and then you have the NBEF, the National Bowhunters Education Foundation. I instruct in both. I don't know about other states too much but here in Hawaii you are required to have a Hunters Education Card to go hunting. We also put on an Advanced Class in Bowhunting and someday, Muzzleloaders here in Hawaii. 

Not all states require that you have a field day. We don't here in Hawaii. I know California instructors have or had quite a bit of leeway and they did have a field day... shooting and archery possible, but usually always hands on firearms introduction on the range. The military base up here was thinking about trying to limit hunting by requiring an NBEF course completion before being able to hunt, but that got shot down. I do know that several Military bases that allow hunting do require NBEF training and I've heard of demonstrated abiiity at one or two a base in Virginia I read requires NBEF, Hunter Ed, and the ordinance class that I think any place that shoots stuff requires, and demonstrated ability. 

I'm not opposed to being tested and if I fail, I fail... just as long as folks are able to come back and try again. Being proficient ahead of time if you have to demonstrate, would suggest to me that you take the dedication to the requirement seriously if you have trepidations about 20 and 25 yard shot requirements. I'm all for demonstrated abiltiy whether on site or with affadavit by someone who can get nailed for signing off a bad card with a violation if its a mill operation... you know... you pays yer money and off you go kinda thing without meeting the requirement.

I'm kinda interested in how the rest of folks feel about proving proficiency... :grin: None too popular the last time it came up... :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

And isn't it amazing that the ones against demonstrated proficiency are the one to slam folks right off the bat... But then it fits the character.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

uabdave said:


> imho, if you are gonna do it for bowhunters, then you should also do it for gun hunters. I know of a lot of guys who gutshoot deer all season with highpowered rifles and scopes that make an animal look like its sittin in your lap from 200yds. All you ethics police better watch what you wish for, or we'll get it and then some. Problem is, when you leave it to a government official to make up rules like shooting qualifications to get a deer tag, you never know what you'll get. You could get an anti or some very ill-informed individual in there who would set the bar so high, none of you would qualify. That is where it is our job to teach the next generation to be better than we are, starting them as young as possible... And i dont necessarily mean in shooting in and of itself... I mean in picking/limiting their shots to their abilities...


yes!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

My UK archery federation now requires new archers to be signed off as safe and proficient before they can compete in 3D shoots and you must have 6 signed and witnessed scorecards before you are allowed to shoot in the national champs yet Joe Yahoo can go to Bass Pro, buy a bow and a few arrows, write his hunter safety course and hit the woods dreaming of deer. That seems a bit screwy to me.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ...Most trad shooters here in the US are satisfied with mediocre shooting and the reason they are is because they don't know any better - they really do not realize just how good one can get with a trad bow - so they are satisfied with how they shoot. I was the same...


Sharp, I was too. The only points I even question in this quote are that (1) I don't believe this concept is limited solely to traditional archers (or even archers in general), and (2) I'm not sure about the "most"; waaaay too many, yes; most, I dunno.

But then, I'm one of those self-scourging wierdos who believes that regardless of our current level of accuracy with any device that launches a projectile, we're none of us ever "good enough" to quit working to improve - no matter the use we put that missile-launcher to.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> You know me Matt, never shy away from a subject if it makes good debate
> I really thought that the hunter safety course here would require you to demonstrate at least a basic ability to shoot but no. I know of a girl who has just passed it and she misses 50%+ of the 40 targets on a 3D course and score maybe 75 points yet she is now allowed to go deer hunting with that same 40#@28" bow she draws back 25". You couldn't make this stuff up could you.


peers ok to me, don't see any game violations, in the USA hunter safety course's are required by law for the safety of the participant its not to protect the game hunted . hope this helps :angel:


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> My UK archery federation now requires new archers to be signed off as safe and proficient before they can compete in 3D shoots and you must have 6 signed and witnessed scorecards before you are allowed to shoot in the national champs yet Joe Yahoo can go to Bass Pro, buy a bow and a few arrows, write his hunter safety course and hit the woods dreaming of deer. That seems a bit screwy to me.[/QUO
> maybe i can help explain it to you , it the reason my ancestors left Dunbartonshire, , Scotland in the 1700 and faught a war to get freedom to do things that are say dangerous. and maybe a little screwey .:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I agree jusoldave that we should never take an attitude of good enough and we should always strive to improve - and being able to see what the best shots are doing - it gives us a realistic goal to work torwards. As far as many verses most - I can only go buy the scores I see - and the scores I see - even at World Championships show that most 70% - do not average a vital hit - and at regular shoots it is over 90% that do not average a vital hit.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I was just wondering where is the line going to be drawn? & if it is drawn is it really going to do anything.
We have alot of drivers training & testing for alot of years to drive on the roads, & in my line of work I would have to say..It is not working.
And from what I've seen, poor shooting is not just a stick bow thing, awhile ago I had to take a class to get a concealed pistol license, and lets just say I was shocked at what I saw from most of my classmates.
Now before I was allowed to start hunting I had to prove myself to the ones I hunted with, I had to put 6 out of 6 arrows in a paperplate at 20 yards, when ever I was told to, had to show I could walk though the woods with min. noise, find my way around the woods I was going to be hunting in without a compass, could sharpen a knife to shave hair, etc. and ya know what in the 40 years I've been deerhunting, I've still missed afew deer & had to track along ways on poor hit, etc., I have been turned around in the woods I time or two.
Now that being said I make my family show me that I trust there shooting, woodmanship before I let them hunt with me.
I been in hunting camps with some people who I think should not be trusted with a cap gun or one of those bow with arrows that have a suction cup on the end, they are not my family, so I feel it is not my right to tell them what or how or if they should be hunting, I will try to help them if they want, if they don't want my help, it is my right to not to ask them back (if it's my camp) or don't hunt with them (if it's there camp) & I have done this many times over the years, but that all I feel I have the right to do.
Personally from what I've seen over the years, in my neck of the woods, is alot of hunters can't track a wounded deer to save there life, they give up to easy, I hear alot about a 100 yard rule, (they say they went over 100 yards & could not find it, so it must be still alive).
I think we should police, & worry about ourself's & the ones were hunting with, & not having laws, rules, mandates, etc. made up a bunch of holy'er then thou people, I think we would be better off if we take care of ourself & the people next to us, we already have alot of rule, laws, tests, etc. that are not working so good now.
And I think if we are going to have tests, then lets go all the way, no sence in stoping with shooting, lets add tracking wounded deer, woodsmanship, (I go out on many lost hunters every year) they did not have a working compass even if they could read it, & dead batteries in the gps. Then how about treestands, you should come to work with me during hunting season & see how many fall out of them & get hurt every year, maybe a test for treestand hunters, etc. etc. See what I mean about drawing the line & where to draw it, & who's the ones drawing it, I'am somewhat sure if ya ask peta & others like them would love to help on getting those type of rule & laws passed, just a guess.
Sometimes we need to be careful on what we wish for, we just might get it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't beleive that anyone in this thread is calling for a test - it was just a discussion about what is accurate and how we need to raise the bar of what we consider accurate. I believe the less government the better (in most cases anyhow).


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I agree jusoldave that we should never take an attitude of good enough and we should always strive to improve - and being able to see what the best shots are doing - it gives us a realistic goal to work torwards. As far as many verses most - I can only go buy the scores I see - and the scores I see - even at World Championships show that most 70% - do not average a vital hit - and at regular shoots it is over 90% that do not average a vital hit.


 Of course I also agree the both of you on striving to improve and I have a attitude of striving to improve my shooting ability , think most do also, I go to a local club and shoot sometimes with friends and enjoy myself shooting 3D and almost every day and some time twice a day i shoot my pet deer (named foam) in my back yard but i care less what others score cards show at the end of the day the only score there i really really want to beat is my personals best. and i have hunted for many many moons and since i carry a lifetime license i dont plan on quiting soon, Also I dont begrudge a little girl going deer hunting with her dad with her little bow and her new safety course accomplishment . I dont consider my self a rubbish snap shooter but a seasoned bow hunter.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey guys if it were possible I would furnish the pop-corn tomarrow , :darkbeer:


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I thought I read some posts about some type of a test would be a good thing, if I was reading wrong I am sorry for my rant.
I think as for shooting better, it's up to that person, anyone who cares about the game they hunt will always try to get better, & they need no one to tell them, I think most know anything less then lung area on every shot means ya need to work on it, kind'a why we shoot as much as we do, I know people say all kinds of off the wall things when they shoot poorly, most of it is just trying to save face, I think if you look them in the eye when they say it, you will find some of them don't believe what there saying, there ego is getting in the way, those are the ones that over time, will take help. Yes, some I think really don't care, but from what I've seen, most of them are usually in the woods very little, they went hunting just to party, & there bow or gun more cases then not don't get out of the case, kind'a like I know alot people who go hunting, but very few hunters, those ones there is no easy answer for, other then hide there bow & buy them a case of beer.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I re-read some of my comments and wanted to clarify so folks don't think I'm saying things are fine and there's no need to improve. That isn't my meaning and certainly not how I approach shooting. Like others have spoken about I'm the type that always feels I can do better. 

My point about the 3D shoots was that they aren't always the best method to judge a persons accuracy as it pertains to hunting. This past year I only shot in 6 3D shoot and that includes the IBO Indoor Worlds and Trad Worlds. The local shoots I attended had an average shot distance between 23-28 yards. I don't think there were any shots under 17 yards and a bunch of shots between 30-40. Now, if you take your average trad guy who limits his shots on deer to maybe 20 yards and put him on a course that averages farther it isn't rocket science to figure out he's probably not gonna average eights, especially when you start throwing in turkeys and goats and other small critters out past 20. Now, you can argue that a good shooter should be able to make farther shots (and I agree) but if you have a guy who really, truly limits his shots to 20 and in at critters than those 23-28 yard shots only show you he's past his limit. I read all the time about the "foam is good" mentality but I can't honestly say I've ever shot with a bowhunter who's happy with just hitting somewhere. A good friend of mine is an above average shot and shoots pretty good out to 25 yards, yet he's never taken an animal over 18 yards. I also know guys (compound shooters) who can hammer tens all day out to 50 yards and lose deer every season because they take bad shots. That's why proficiency tests are somewhat pointless. All they do is show you can hit a vital at a certain distance. They don't measure how a person will act when they are actually in the woods. Would you rather hunt with someone who only shoots at animals out to 17 yards and won't take a shot unless it's just right or someone who passes a test and is willing to shoot at anything walking within 60 yards irregardless of the angle or animals state of awareness?

3D scores are relative to the course and that's it. If you took lots of these guys who don't average a vital hit on every target and had them move up to within the their comfort zone the numbers would improve quite a bit.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I am personally in favor of some sort of competence being required to hunt with any weapon.

However I would make the test a little different.

I would have the instructions for the test very simple. Us a life-sized 3D, remove any distance markings from the ground and permit no range-finders. Ask the archer to step to a good shooting distance and angle then take a shot. Have them repeat 5 times from different positions. Every shot must be a kill to pass and no shot can be taken inside 10yds (observed by the administrator).
Its a test which is as much about decision making as it is about shooting a bow.

-Grant


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I am personally in favor of some sort of competence being required to hunt with any weapon.
> 
> However I would make the test a little different.
> 
> ...



I feel like I walked to the old baitpile here, LOL 
If were going to test for competence & decision making, lets add blood tracking, the ones offering the test (maybe at select sportsman club), set up a sparse blood trail for them to follow, field dressing, proper care of meat, & walk them to spot in the woods & see if they can find there way back to where the started (we could maybe combine that with the blood trailing to save time), Maybe a clean bill of health for a doctor, incl. a stress test, etc. Then maybe to make sure no one backslides, all hunts must have video's for administrators to review, any shot they don't agree with they can mail you a $100 fine & no hunting for 3 years, and so on. I can see this being the start of the end. I just think there no easy answers here people, & I see danger once started, it seems to me that the BS rules/laws, started with someones good & resonable intent, but by the time everyone get's what they want added to it, it goes down hill from there, I just think (I know I'am simple minded) that if we police ourself & the ones around us when it comes to shooting, hunting, it would be a better option then a competence test that has a good chance to go down hill fast. I think the members & groups here that are working with the kids are on the right track, we improve from within & how the youngblood is helped.

I'am going to "try" to get away from the baitpile for now, but I'am sure there agian, LOL


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> I am personally in favor of some sort of competence being required to hunt with any weapon.
> 
> However I would make the test a little different.
> 
> ...


When not to shoot is as important as the shot itself, in my opinion. You can never have 100% reliability with any test about the testee once he's out of the room. Some people just test well, and other not so much. An idea that was ventured on encouraging participation into advanced classes on things like blood trailing, tracking, and game care and handling, as well as proficiency was to promote the class and allow those that participated some reward, an early weekend hunt, or management hunts, or urban area hunting in order to attract participation.

I've had to demonstrate my ability in order to hunt before, and don't find it threatening at all. If you go out of state or off island to hunt like we do here oftentimes, you generally want to check your equipment out. If you can't hit the target when you reach your destination, something isn't right... so do you hunt anyway? Or do you remedy the situation? The scenario is one that we encounter often, that is why I'm not troubled by demonstrated ability and I'd be curious why others would be.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

I have been to 100's of shoots - never seen one where even half the targets where deer.
A good mix of turkeys, fox, 30 inch tall standing bears, raccoons, dinosaurs of various sizes, carp, various African critters, and many
other things. Not sure what averaging vitals on such targets has to do with someone taking a single shot at a deer successfully at a range they are confident in.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ... being able to see what the best shots are doing - it gives us a realistic goal to work towards. As far as many versus most - I can only go by the scores I see - and the scores I see - even at World Championships show that most 70% - do not average a vital hit - and at regular shoots it is over 90% that do not average a vital hit.


Yikes! I don't doubt you, but if that's the case that's just... appalling.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I see the point some of you are making about having to learn the basic skills of hunting but as this thread is about accuracy I will stick to that.
I likes Grants idea of a simple 5 shot test to be certified, that might make a few people actually work at their shooting. A lot of he guys I have met at Compton and other Trad meets are real good guys and some are great shots. Many others just seem to be a bit too caught up in the perceived romance of all things trad and spend more time making mink fur underwear than they do practicing their shooting.
For many, traditional archery seems to be a whole lifestyle, that's great but just remember the word "archery" is in here and these PETA people that keep getting mentioned I am sure like to hear a good wounded deer story to had fuel to their fire.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

This issue I have with hunters safety and the possibility of proficiency tests is you are trying to legislate or teach in a 2 week class something that you should have been raised with and taught from the ground up by the elders of your family and or hunting group and that is ethics. I would rather hunt with a guy who has a 3 yard effective range and could NEVER pass a test but, limits himself to 3 yards than some ace arrow slinger who thinks nothing about moving shots at 40 yards.

I grew up in a very closed hunting environment (I only hunted with family or close friends) it wasn't until I started guiding that I had my eyes opened to the broad spectrum of both gun safety and ethics - at this point the number of people I am willing to hunt with is VERY limited.

Matt

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I want to stress again that I do not agree with proficiency testing and lots of excellent points are being made about hunting being different from 3D - but the sad fact still remains that most of us in the trad community need to improve or shooting in a big way.

Being a great shot cannot hurt ones hunting skills - it can only help - so why not encourage everyone to be great shots (as great as they can)? Why not encourage scores to be posted so that we in the trad community can have some realistic goals for our shooting? Why not encourage everyone to strive for at least an average of a vital hit on every target? Why not encourage guys to use equipment and styles that make them the best shots possible?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> This issue I have with hunters safety and the possibility of proficiency tests is you are trying to legislate or teach in a 2 week class something that you should have been raised with and taught from the ground up by the elders of your family and or hunting group and that is ethics. I would rather hunt with a guy who has a 3 yard effective range and could NEVER pass a test but, limits himself to 3 yards than some ace arrow slinger who thinks nothing about moving shots at 40 yards.
> 
> I grew up in a very closed hunting environment (I only hunted with family or close friends) it wasn't until I started guiding that I had my eyes opened to the broad spectrum of both gun safety and ethics - at this point the number of people I am willing to hunt with is VERY limited.
> 
> ...


I agree with Matt. 

I also don't understand any hunter that would not constantly try to improve their shooting skills. But like Matt said, even if someone is not a great shot but is aware of it and keeps within his or her effective range (even if it's measured in feet) I will not judge them harshly.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I know what you're saying Matt and those 40yd shots are not a good idea for anyone but I still think a basic test would harm no one and might make a few people realize their need to work on their shooting a bit more if they want a full freezer.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> This issue I have with hunters safety and the possibility of proficiency tests is you are trying to legislate or teach in a 2 week class something that you should have been raised with and taught from the ground up by the elders of your family and or hunting group and that is ethics. I would rather hunt with a guy who has a 3 yard effective range and could NEVER pass a test but, limits himself to 3 yards than some ace arrow slinger who thinks nothing about moving shots at 40 yards.
> 
> I grew up in a very closed hunting environment (I only hunted with family or close friends) it wasn't until I started guiding that I had my eyes opened to the broad spectrum of both gun safety and ethics - at this point the number of people I am willing to hunt with is VERY limited.
> 
> ...


That aint happening today... what with single mothers, 3 jobs, living in a man-cave (apartment/condo)? The old days you had homes surrounded by woods, rabbits and squirrels... as well as deer and such. Today you are surrounded by powerlines and subdivision. There is no osmosis. There are usually only saturday nite hunting movies and gossip as to how to learn how to hunt. While I agree accurate shooting is helpful to hunting, the mindsets are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in my opinion. What you do naturally on the fly shooting is what is going to happen. It is your habits that run your hunt. Its practice shooting with your gear on uphill, downhill and on your knees... (remembering I'm a stalker n walker). Tree Stands present other issues... that in my opinion, require practice, not just the words, remember, shoot low.

I've no business telling anyone how to shoot accurately, only how I got to making buckets... anchor. But yes accuracy is important to all shooting, shot placement is important to hunting. There are other things you don't learn on your own. I used to watch all these outdoor channel hunting shows and frankly I was appalled at so many safety practices that were ignored that I got tired at watching some of them. As for learning hunting from those videos... if you're going for your deer, it's only at night with light... and on and on and on.... so... is it any question...

Also, today we have so many kids getting into archery because of Hunger Games... For most it will be Fad and Fancy. If they move on to hunting, are they prepared.... is the mentor prepared? And then there is PETA.... waiting in the wings.

Because of todays environment or lack of it, I'm all for practical training and or instruction for hunters, whether firearms or bow. There is not enough of it going on and there should be a greater emphasis on it. You can teach hunting techniques in gym if you put your mind to it... but we don't. Should we?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Easykeeper said:


> I agree with Matt.
> 
> I also don't understand any hunter that would not constantly try to improve their shooting skills. But like Matt said, even if someone is not a great shot but is aware of it and keeps within his or her effective range (even if it's measured in feet) I will not judge them harshly.


Exactly.... Knowing when not to shoot... just as important as when to shoot. This is why in my mind, having things like 3D with some credit for not shooting if you don't know you can make it, without penalizing those that do, I feel you give a more representative experience.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I suppose with 1000 grain arrows - you wouldn't want to shoot many shots past what 10 feet? :tongue:


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

my kids accuse me of being a scrape hunter not a deer hunter LOL guess there right I spend much time looking for active scrapes , I hunt a lot of government or wma land season starts Oct 1 till Jan 15th, limit is 6 . the first day or first weekend there not hardly parking space for everyone i go elsewhere first couple weeks but after that lots of parking most hunters loose interest after second week . After Christmas (cold) its rare to find another hunter there most city, or folks that have to drive far for a place to hunt dont very often in my area. what i trying to say is the class of shooters we are talking about dont hunt near as much as one would think. and in comfey weather they prolly do show up on a 3 D range close to home and you all see them shoot and you have wait on them to find there arrows LOL but you see them on the range more than I see them in the woods, as for Government regulations whether there wildlife regs, EPA of federal i say pass them if you must BUT for every one passed take away 10 old regulations and keep helping everyone that you can become a better sportsman .


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I suppose with 1000 grain arrows - you wouldn't want to shoot many shots past what 10 feet? :tongue:


I just shot my hickories yesterday with my Dorado... this was before tapering and sanding and puttin on a tip... and cutting to 32" for fieldpoints.... and i didn't put a chronograph on it, but I coulda almost beat my arrow to the target bein a little younger... :grin: Nah... I'm pretty comfortable to 20 yards. I had no idea that hickory would have been so heavy when I ordered a couple of gross....


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

It is a mindset that some of the Traditional shooters have.
I have been to a few shoots around here, I saw a FEW that could shoot. I then had to hear about those FEW shooters that the others in the area told me about, so and so is really good. and so is so and is. What I found is that the really good ones, ALL shot with a system, gap, poi, whatever..
The rest would then say, AND get puffed up about it," I SHOOT INSTINCTIVE, and I shoot for fun, I am a bow hunter " My comment back was SO,,are they cheating? you still suck! 20 minutes behind a 3-d elk at 20 yards to find your arrows,, multiple arrows? REALLY !!
It was the word instinctive, that used to peeve me, so shoot your way and get better !! DO NOT use it as a crutch. Then through the years I learned that people shoot for different reasons, and good for them, turn in your card or do not, I will and I am proud of the scores I turn in. I learned to shoot better and am still trying to get better as I type, but I do not care how you shoot, I will and have tried all the ways possible to shoot better, and will continue to be the best shot I can be, Whatever I am Shooting at !!! I think you can be as accurate as you work for. 
I think a 40 yard shot at mule deer is acceptable, I have shot multiple deer at 40 yards, with a recurve, because we have to able to, the west is different open sagebrush , open pine forests, so I have to. I therefore have to be able to with a recurve, OR SHOOT A COMPOUND !! lol


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Since the dawn of time man has been chucking something at animals, in a lot of cases before they where ready to. Some where better at it than others. Some got better some did not. This is just the reality of it.

I just started attending Trad shoots about 2 years ago and I have seen some great shots and some poor shots. Again this the reality of it. 

Some people are going to hunt weather they should or not. I see this from all groups rifle, shotgun, compound , 

I would not be against proficiency testing. Like antler restrictions some people need someone to force sound judgement on them


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hmm I shoot instinctive, Rick Welch shoots instinctive - and I think we can hold our own against anyone and any method short of sights. I have never used instinctive as a crutch - it is an aiming method and in my opinion the best aiming method for hunting with a trad bow.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Hmm I shoot instinctive, Rick Welch shoots instinctive - and I think we can hold our own against anyone and any method short of sights. I have never used instinctive as a crutch - it is an aiming method and in my opinion the best aiming method for hunting with a trad bow.


The best aiming method is the one that works best for an individual archer. It seems instinctive is best for you. It is certainly versatile for many situations.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Sharp , 

The comment was not at you... I personally think that a gap-stinctive is the best way to shoot a bow while hunting, 
I have to be able to shoot consistently at 40 yards. I could not do that your way only. We both have to get a result in a different set of terrain and shooting circumstance, mine is NOT absolute and yours is not either.
That is the response I would get, if you had not proved your ability.. you and rick are a minority, as good Instinctive shooters , not the norm,
I get that from here, they flat stink !!!
AND then use the word that can not be named, as a crutch..


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The issue is that most instinctive shooters think that they have to do it the Asbell way - which amounts to about the worst form one can imagine and the hardest form to be consistent at - if one can break the idea that instinctive aiming is tied to snap shooting and bending and twisting like you are taking a crap when you shoot - then most would become much better instinctive shots.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The issue is that most instinctive shooters think that they have to do it the Asbell way - which amounts to about the worst form one can imagine and the hardest form to be consistent at - if one can break the idea that instinctive aiming is tied to snap shooting and bending and twisting like you are taking a crap when you shoot - then most would become much better instinctive shots.


I think most people would agree with that


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The issue is that most instinctive shooters think that they have to do it the Asbell way - which amounts to about the worst form one can imagine and the hardest form to be consistent at - if one can break the idea that instinctive aiming is tied to snap shooting and bending and twisting like you are taking a crap when you shoot - then most would become much better instinctive shots.


Is that how you take a crap sharp.... what are you looking for, snakes?.... no indoor plumbing?... Again Sharp... you are beginning to show your arrogance again.... You are in no position to comment on what is best or worst in the form of aiming. We all have come to grips with our own style. I don't know what you call mine, but it works... I don't know what I call yours... but it *take note of this sharp... OK.... write this down.....* YouR method of shooting is the best method of shooting for YOU! Not me, Not BigC, and certainly not for a beginner... unless they come to realize that they like that style... whatever it is. My method is the one best for me... till I can find something better... for example... I'm now experimenting with 3 under. You've no idea how many folks have said that this is the cats meow.... well we'll see won't we... But to tell me right off its the best method... is ludicrous. Write that down sharp.. you speak ONLY FOR YOURSELF.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think most people would agree with that


I don't... and I've got Asbells books... you develop your own style out introduction, experience, or necessity. Asbell way is the best for Asbell... but... he offers insight into shooting style and form. Gap doesn't work for me... but a form of it might... Instinctive doesn't work at all for me.... but that doesn't mean I condemn it. I use a form of the gunsight/learned sight picture to shoot... what is that... crazy.. right?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> I don't... and I've got Asbells books... you develop your own style out introduction, experience, or necessity. Asbell way is the best for Asbell... but... he offers insight into shooting style and form. Gap doesn't work for me... but a form of it might... Instinctive doesn't work at all for me.... but that doesn't mean I condemn it. I use a form of the gunsight/learned sight picture to shoot... what is that... crazy.. right?


I am corrected


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't let this thread turn into a pi**ing match like all the others. It was pretty good up to now guys.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BarneySlayer said:


> I am corrected


 I'm not most people, but criticizing one who cant defend oneself is to me bad taste, and to say particularly that a style is the worst irks me. I'm of the opinion that we all refine because of introduction, experience, and necessity... a term I borrow freely, because of its accuracy. We are taught, experience, or because of age, injury or build, do things to accomodate our need.

Anyway.... it wasn't meant to correct, just disagree with the worst statement.

Much Aloha.. :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bigjono said:


> Don't let this thread turn into a pi**ing match like all the others. It was pretty good up to now guys.


 I didn't think it was... :grin:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Has anyone ever seen anyone shoot with the form that Asbell recommends or snap shoot that consistently shoots well and scores well? I haven't - in over 20 years of shooting and attending tournaments - I have never seen one person - INCLUDING ASBELL himself shoot well with that style of shooting - Asbell is at best an average shot - he is not an exceptional shot. Is it possible that there is someone out there that does - sure - but they would be the exception not the rule - one thing you will see is the rule - is that sold comfortable form standing straight up without all that bending and twisting is how virtually all really good shots shoot.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Has anyone ever seen anyone shoot with the form that Asbell recommends or snap shoot that consistently shoots well and scores well? I haven't - in over 20 years of shooting and attending tournaments - I have never seen one person - INCLUDING ASBELL himself shoot well with that style of shooting - Asbell is at best an average shot - he is not an exceptional shot. Is it possible that there is someone out there that does - sure - but they would be the exception not the rule - one thing you will see is the rule - is that sold comfortable form standing straight up without all that bending and twisting is how virtually all really good shots shoot.


Your opinion sharp is YOUR OPINION. We all know you are the worlds best archer, and we all know Asbell is the worlds worst.... but do you know what the scenario that these three shots represent?


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

perfect Rattus..

one cannot completely call a way the only way... 
situatons vary, use all the tools you can to be good at what you are trying to accomplish. 
I am a good shot, I am a bowhunter that takes game, and I use multiple methods to get there.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

it is not an opinion - it is a fact that I have never seen a single person shoot that style well - that is not my opinion - that is a fact. I have been to hundreds of archery shoots and never have I seen a single person shoot that style well - that is not opinion - that is fact. Is it possible that there is someone out there that does - sure it is - but from my observations - that would be the exception - not the rule.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Prove me wrong and give me the names of the people you know that shoot that style well and show me the websites that list the tournaments that they have won


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Look at Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson, virtually any IBO world Champion and note that they all have basically the same form - and it ain't what Asbell teaches


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sharp, I agree 100% the way Asbell teaches looks really uncomfortable and 100% non-repeatable,look at ALL the top shooters over the last 5 years and they all look pretty much the same....Welch,Harruff,Powell,Blackmon,Antczak,Neal,Lynde...they ALL look the same when they shoot.

Gotta be for a reason.

Dewayne Martin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thanks Dewayne


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Prove me wrong and give me the names of the people you know that shoot that style well and show me the websites that list the tournaments that they have won


I see... You know I don't remember Asbell talking about tournaments in the books I have. Could you please refer me to which one you're talking about?


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

And yet Asbell consistently kills game and has for decades.
Seems like he shoots his style extremely accurately for his archery purposes.
In short - it works very well for him but that doesn't mean in any way it will be the best choice for any one else.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Back to the original question: " whats accurate in traditional"?

There are many measure's for different disciplines.

For tournaments with a fixed format like an NFAA 300 round, good guidelines for score has been posted here.

For those with a more flexible - as in distances - like 3D, similar guidelines are here also.

For hunting with trad equipment, the only measure that matters is the rate at which a loosed arrow results results in a recovered animal.
Applying tournament scores, proficiency test or any other method may indicate a possible tendency, but a high % of dead animals for arrows loosed is the only true measure of a hunter's accuracy. In no way does this suggest a hunter should not always strive to become the best shot they can be, but if someone is killing most of the game they shoot at, I am not going to judge them but a 300 score, a a 3d score, them having fun at a shoot, or by how much or little they squat or how slow/fast they shoot.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SteveB said:


> And yet Asbell consistently kills game and has for decades.
> Seems like he shoots his style extremely accurately for his archery purposes.
> In short - it works very well for him but that doesn't mean in any way it will be the best choice for any one else.


That is my impressions as well. He has helped dozens of archers and yet he is criticized for putting it out there. I'd still like sharp to comment on what these three pictures represent while shooting... and of course, if he thinks that this is Asbells "Style" of shooting.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have never questioned Asbells ability as a hunter - I have even recommended his book on still hunting - lots of good information in there - but he sells himself as an expert on Instinctive Shooting - and well - if you are an expert on something - one would think you should be at least above average at it.

Asbell's style of shooting does not work for anyone that I have ever seen shoot - as I have said and has been ignored by the fans - show me one person who shoots this style well and is out there proving it. Every person I have watched shoot that style shoots horribly.

Asbell may well limit his shots to 10 yards for all I know - and if that is what you want out of shooting - fine - but the whole reason he came up was in the context of guys using "instinctive" as an excuse for their lousy shooting at the range - and on the range - I have yet to see a single person shoot that style well.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Rattus - please - I know what Asbells style of shooting is - I have met Asbell and attended his shooting clinic at Black Widow in Nixa, MO, I have read all of his books and watched is video. I have a photo of me, asbell, and ken beck signed - do you want me to scan it for you? I know what his style is and it sucks!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken....his style doesn't suck for him.....and that's what you're losing focus on...just like mine works for me and you yours....one thing I will try and remind you guys of is yes he has killed a lot of game animals but he also gets to hunt where there is a lot of game...he gets to stack as many odds in his favor it's called being lucky enough to hunt for a living.

Bring the pros to my neck of the woods here inn southwest va and see how they fare....it would be a lot of crappy days..


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If Asbells style works so well for him - he sure is shy about showing it - we tried to get him to show us his shooting skills at the clinic we attended and he would not - and back when I posted on the Widow Wall - it was manifested that at virtually every clinic guys tired to get him to shoot in front of them and he would not. He does not give public shooting demonstrations - if it works so well - one would think the least he could do is show us.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog - you have not written a book on shooting or sold a video on shooting - but I would bet everything I own that you shoot much more accurate than Asbell in any format of shooting.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> but he sells himself as an expert on Instinctive Shooting - and well - if you are an expert on something - one would think you should be at least above average at it.


A person does NOT have to be able to do something well in order to be an expert at it. There are many Olympic coaches who can't perform close to the level of their students...yet they are experts at what they teach.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Each technique can have general advantages and disadvantaes under specific circumstances. There is NOT a one size fits all.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Rattus - please - I know what Asbells style of shooting is - I have met Asbell and attended his shooting clinic at Black Widow in Nixa, MO, I have read all of his books and watched is video. I have a photo of me, asbell, and ken beck signed - do you want me to scan it for you? I know what his style is and it sucks!


Well that's good... you know there are enough people who have gained from him for him to have created quite a following, a hall of fame inductee as well I think. You need to learn a little humility Sharp and come to grips with your opinions are YOURS ALONE. I hate to break it to you again, but some of the stuff you spout as gospel is garbage... to put it bluntly... and further, you need to come to grips with the fact that what works for you, *works for you!*

His style is not yours.... whoopdedoo... doesn't mean yours is the greatest, or that you are the greatest either, it just means that you are who you are. When you are teaching someone, you tell them "here is how I like to do it, lets try it and see if it works for you". Then you go forth and modify if necessary... or change sometimes. Since you spent so much time with Asbell, what was the point of his dropping his stance to shoot? Did he do that on the range? Or did he practice that for hunting in the open?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Each technique can have general advantages and disadvantaes under specific circumstances. There is NOT a one size fits all.
> 
> Ray :shade:


 how true....


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> if it works so well - one would think the least he could do is show us.


Some people do NOT shoot well in front of others...especially when put on the spot in front of a crowd.

It's all based on personality. NOT everyone shoots well under those circumstances.

I've seen some really good backyard shooters....who could literally shoot just about anyone's lights out...but will not attend a competitive archery event because they lack the mental discipline to shoot under those circumstances....and they could careless about developing it because they aren't out to impress anyone.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Some people do NOT shoot well in front of others...especially when put on the spot in front of a crowd.
> 
> It's all based on personality. NOT everyone shoots well under those circumstances.
> 
> ...


You're right about personalities too.. yer on quite the roll... :grin:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

wow ... this place is now officially dumb 

but Asbell/Comptons/Rage/Instinctive/TBM etc etc at the least makes this place entertaining if somewhat amazingly redundant 

I didn't know ol' G Fred had to shoot in front of people ... much like aside from when we went hunting I didn't see Rod Jenkins fire an arrow form further away than 6 feet over the course of 2 weeks ... maybe we should all just go to Ricky Welch's school ....... :tongue:

I am no great fan of Asbell , nor his shooting method ... he sure has killed a few nice critters though ... and by all accounts he is a fine woodsman *and* good shot .... but then again I am probably more partial to Jim Dougherty's opinion of people than some others peoples opinions .............

How dare he not perform for people on command ! Bad G Fred !!! ... bad boy !!!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

It does seem kind of odd that you can write a book,make a video but won't show people how you shoot???

Maybe it's magic!!

Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

the point is - that is convientiently being overlooked here is that I have not seen a SINGLE person shoot this style well. There is not a single person who has shot well at any shoot or competition that I have attended that shot this style well. I have been to every IBO Traditonal World Championship except this years (my mom died) - and there has not been a single person shooting that way that shot well. I have been to dozens of shoots accross the nation and never have I seen a person shoot this style well. If it works so well and has helped so many people - it is odd to me that none of them ever show up at any traditional shoots? From what I have seen - this style has screwed up more guys than it has helped.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> the point is - that is convientiently being overlooked here is that I have not seen a SINGLE person shoot this style well. There is not a single person who has shot well at any shoot or competition that I have attended that shot this style well. I have been to every IBO Traditonal World Championship except this years (my mom died) - and there has not been a single person shooting that way that shot well. I have been to dozens of shoots accross the nation and never have I seen a person shoot this style well. If it works so well and has helped so many people - it is odd to me that none of them ever show up at any traditional shoots? From what I have seen - this style has screwed up more guys than it has helped.


YOU CONVENIENTLY forgot to answer my question... if he training people for IBO and tournament archery... and you still didn't tell us what his style if for... since you have all this experience with him.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

IBO - International BOWHUNTING Organization if you cannot hit a foam target that looks EXACTLY like a deer in the woods in the same manner that you would hunt one - then you can't hit the real thing either. When the MAJORITY of trad shooters over 90% cannot manage to AVERAGE a vital hit on 20 or 30 3d ANIMAL targets IN THE WOODS at reasonable hunting distances - something is radically wrong in the sport - and I happen to think a BIG part of it is the Asbell style of shooting! Ridculously heavy arrows and FOC have a part to play as well, but that is for another thread.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Like I said ... I am not a fan of his shooting style ,although I suppose I still shoot my longbows with a swing draw , albeit my bow is not canted that much ... sure don't squat either !

But you can't get that many fine animals without at the least having some ability with a bow and arrow ... is it the _best_ shooting style ? Probably not for most ... personally I think it would reduce your draw length and make alignment difficult ... but there are those who use it well apparently .... maybe they have no desire to shoot tourney or 3D ? Most of the archer using Trad gear here in Oz have never been to a 3D shoot let alone a Field tourney ... sad I know but thats the way it goes ... 

Would it be fair to suggest that most trad archers do not compete in the USA ? 

And as Ken alluded to , he must be a good woodsman ... taking P&Y animals regularly is not a matter of luck ... it is a matter of perseverance and skill IMHO .... making recurves and writing magazine articles probably doesn't pay that great in reality and as such I'd suggest that Mr Asbell has worked hard for his game and his chances just like the rest of us .... I doubt that his success in Alaska , California etc was paid for by any "sponsors" etc .....

He sure does seem to be target here on this forum ... but he has never said his way is the only way , recently wrote that everyone would do better by shooting some Field rounds like he did during his formulative years , donates his time to archery organisations and recently donated clinics at his house to a childrens chariity ...

so maybe he isn't the worlds greatest archer , maybe his style is inherently technically flawed but works for him 

and maybe ... just maybe we will see a week go by when Mr Asbell is not blamed for the wrongs of "trad" ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The problem is that, while his style may or may not work for him - the problem is that it clearly does not work for most other archers - but it is sold as the way to shoot a bow instinctively - and unfortunately - many people have actually come to believe that if one is not shooting like Asbell - they are not truly shooting instinctive - and that is sad.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Many of the people I know personally who have attended Asbell's class have come away better shooters and have actually seen improvement in a matter of hours with their shooting.

I think most of the people who are struggling with Asbell's technique are trying to copy it based on not fully understanding it and they're most likely coaching themselves.

That path can lead to poor shooting with just about any technique if the archer doesn't fully understand it and/or is teaching it to themselves.

It's also unfortunate - many people have actually come to believe that Instinctive shooting is exactly as Rick Welch describes regarding the archer's sight picture...which has been proven to be no different than how many experienced Gap shooters have been aiming for a long time.

Ray :shade:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken ... I'd reservedly agree with you ... But I'd suggest that is the archers fault , not Asbells' .
I am pretty sure I have read him suggesting that if something isn't working with your shooting , try something else ... much like we suggest here on this forum . Also just he suggested some time back in your favorite mag that people should get out there to tourneys as it simulates "pressure" etc 
If the "plaid brigade" [ I wear wool plaid by the way...and what ever else is cheap ] hang on the every word of their Hero's thats their problem ... not the hero's . 
Here in Oz we sure do have a swing and a miss mentality ... and "tradism" is rife ... I sure can't blame Asbell for the bad shooting much as I can't blame Hill for the overbowing I see everyday ... where I can I believe , lay some responsibility , is at the feet of archers who don't shoot well and use the excuse of mentors and the written word of archery writers as their Gospel _and_ excuse ...
If it is broken ... fix it ........ study, train and try different things ... its not Asbell thats the problem as he has the runs on the board going by his game taken , its not Paul Brunners for his love of heavy arrows, nor is it Ashby's findings despite his acknowledgement that deer don't need heavy arrrows ... but it may be some of their readers , and very often new archers , close-mindedness and stubborness that is the problem


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Again - Asbell's style is being judged by tournament scores.
For bow hunting the only measure is killing the animal you shoot at consistently.
If you do that, it works for you regardless of a 3D score.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ben is wise!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The problem is that, while his style may or may not work for him - the problem is that it clearly does not work for most other archers - but it is sold as the way to shoot a bow instinctively - and unfortunately - many people have actually come to believe that if one is not shooting like Asbell - they are not truly shooting instinctive - and that is sad.


Yeah.... It's a lot like people thinking light arrows penetrate better than heavy ones... sooooo misguided and all them youngsters wondering why they've lost their game.... all because of one guy... just gotta be his fault.... you think sharp?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> IBO - International BOWHUNTING Organization if you cannot hit a foam target that looks EXACTLY like a deer in the woods in the same manner that you would hunt one - then you can't hit the real thing either. When the MAJORITY of trad shooters over 90% cannot manage to AVERAGE a vital hit on 20 or 30 3d ANIMAL targets IN THE WOODS at reasonable hunting distances - something is radically wrong in the sport - and I happen to think a BIG part of it is the Asbell style of shooting! Ridculously heavy arrows and FOC have a part to play as well, but that is for another thread.


Hahahahahahha..... you're obsessed Sharp.... and I just posted about heavy arrows too.... and lost game... hahahahaha... you're obsessed sharp... truly obsessed. You know what I've noticed about you... when you don't know what you're talking about, you just don't care how high the fall to the rocks is... and it is truly comical to watch....

You need a real dose of humility sharp, for one thing its unbecoming, for another, you still don't get it. What works for you doesn't automatically work for others... and in some of your obsessions, don't work at all... and you can be said to be dispensing some real hogwash. Now we have two credible gentlemen to whom, for some reason, you've got some seemingly real envy issues.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Mmmm ... 
... maybe Sharp isn't the only one 'round here who is obsessed and feels the need to jump in on particular members posts


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Hahahahahahha..... you're obsessed Sharp.... and I just posted about heavy arrows too.... and lost game... hahahahaha... you're obsessed sharp... truly obsessed. You know what I've noticed about you... when you don't know what you're talking about, you just don't care how high the fall to the rocks is... and it is truly comical to watch....
> 
> You need a real dose of humility sharp, for one thing its unbecoming, for another, you still don't get it. What works for you doesn't automatically work for others... and in some of your obsessions, don't work at all... and you can be said to be dispensing some real hogwash. Now we have two credible gentlemen to whom, for some reason, you've got some seemingly real envy issues.


Rat, I seldom agree with Sharp but his post that you referenced was spot on. The traditional shooters in major competitions are not shooting up to the level that should be expected of the majority of them. Your reply really didn't adress his post so much as it was an attack on his history of controversial statements. I also don't think you understood his reference to heavy arrows as he was adressing their use in competitions and not hunting.. The original question, " what is accurate in traditional" is being argued by people referring to hunting and those referring to target archery and a lot of those arguments get cross referenced. I am a firm believer in the mindset that accuracy on the target course mixed in with hunting skills will make you a better hunter. I do feel that this thread could have been more specific and maybe split into two threads, one for the hunting crowd and one for the target crowd.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

itbeso said:


> I am a firm believer in the mindset that accuracy on the target course mixed in with hunting skills will make you a better hunter.


Back i the dark ages , when I was youngster ... back in the 80's ... the hunters were also target archers ... a novel idea huh ? 

crazy stuff that shooting good groups past 20 metres ....... :tongue:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> Back i the dark ages , when I was youngster ... back in the 80's ... the hunters were also target archers ... a novel idea huh ?
> 
> crazy stuff that shooting good groups past 20 metres ....... :tongue:


LOL, Ben, back in the eighties I was having midlife crises.:wink: Your point was well made.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Rat, I seldom agree with Sharp but his post that you referenced was spot on. The traditional shooters in major competitions are not shooting up to the level that should be expected of the majority of them. Your reply really didn't adress his post so much as it was an attack on his history of controversial statements. I also don't think you understood his reference to heavy arrows as he was adressing their use in competitions and not hunting.. The original question, " what is accurate in traditional" is being argued by people referring to hunting and those referring to target archery and a lot of those arguments get cross referenced. I am a firm believer in the mindset that accuracy on the target course mixed in with hunting skills will make you a better hunter. I do feel that this thread could have been more specific and maybe split into two threads, one for the hunting crowd and one for the target crowd.


that is not my argument with him. Your argument that being a good shot helps in being a good hunter is well taken, but not *the* necessity. I don't shoot competitively for a damn good reason, for one, they don't use buckets. For another, I can't concentrate enough to be effective. I was at an informal shoot against some school champs in North Carolina last year and was doing great for about the first 9 shots.... and I'm sure that there are many just like me, so I'm not surprised. This isn't an excuse, but when someone mentioned Asbell not shooting competitively, yeah... I can identify with that... but I don't know that that is his reason.

As for target shooters, I admire the heck out of them... and I love to watch any archery I can, on or off the line, 3D, stump shooters, whatever... I love it. But I've also seen a lot of people put out for kids, and for people like me. I was helped by a guy that wouldn't have been considered any kind of an expert shooter... got me on target... and though if he coulda wrote a book he'd a been just as big a hit as anyone else... there is just something about folks who are successful at what they do with the information they dispense that is captivating. Then there are those charlatans that regugitate what they've learned from others... phony... you know the difference within seconds, if you've been there before. I can say that Asbell isn't a phony, and deserves respect.
You are right about my response to him... I hope you're not charging me much for this session.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> Mmmm ...
> ... maybe Sharp isn't the only one 'round here who is obsessed and feels the need to jump in on particular members posts


Well when he attacks you I'll give it second thought... :grin:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken and I have quite a history of discussion and my absence from one well known archery site is due to one of my discussions with him .......... 

I agree with him most of the time much as he often agrees with me ... But I'd suggest we disagree a fair bit too ... but thats okay ... its a sport not a religion . I find it a bit weird when people cyber stalk him though ... 

well maybe a bit of a religion to me .......

But anywhoo ... back to the topic ... what was it again ? 

Whats accurate in traditional ? 
I'll say the same as whats accurate in any form of archery ... when your repeatable form , whatever that may be , combined with a genuine working knowledge of your equipment enables you to repeatedly loose arrow at the mark , and be surprised when they *don't* hit what you are aiming for


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> Ken and I have quite a history of discussion and my absence from one well known archery site is due to one of my discussions with him ..........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Passion.... does funny things to folks... :grin:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> that is not my argument with him. Your argument that being a good shot helps in being a good hunter is well taken, but not *the* necessity. I don't shoot competitively for a damn good reason, for one, they don't use buckets. For another, I can't concentrate enough to be effective. I was at an informal shoot against some school champs in North Carolina last year and was doing great for about the first 9 shots.... and I'm sure that there are many just like me, so I'm not surprised. This isn't an excuse, but when someone mentioned Asbell not shooting competitively, yeah... I can identify with that... but I don't know that that is his reason.
> 
> As for target shooters, I admire the heck out of them... and I love to watch any archery I can, on or off the line, 3D, stump shooters, whatever... I love it. But I've also seen a lot of people put out for kids, and for people like me. I was helped by a guy that wouldn't have been considered any kind of an expert shooter... got me on target... and though if he coulda wrote a book he'd a been just as big a hit as anyone else... there is just something about folks who are successful at what they do with the information they dispense that is captivating. Then there are those charlatans that regugitate what they've learned from others... phony... you know the difference within seconds, if you've been there before. I can say that Asbell isn't a phony, and deserves respect.
> You are right about my response to him... I hope you're not charging me much for this session.


Rat, I'm not a psychiatrist just a fellow archer so no fees will be levied:angel: I have been in archery for 43 years and for most of that time I was guilty, as many on here are, of not being able to understand why everyone wasn't as competitive as I am when shooting their bow. I couldn't understand why different archers wouldn't try to be the best they could be.. As I've gotten older and, hopefully wiser, I have come to the realization that there are archers out there who, for whatever reasons, are there just to enjoy the flight of the arrow or the comraderie of fellow archery friends. Some are there just to enjoy the hunt and all the other archery events take a back seat to that. Sounds like you fit in there somewhere and I'm good with that.I still like to compete and will do my best to show others just how well a bow can be shot. With that said I hope I have learned that there is a place for all of us in this great sport.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Rat, I'm not a psychiatrist just a fellow archer so no fees will be levied:angel: I have been in archery for 43 years and for most of that time I was guilty, as many on here are, of not being able to understand why everyone wasn't as competitive as I am when shooting their bow. I couldn't understand why different archers wouldn't try to be the best they could be.. As I've gotten older and, hopefully wiser, I have come to the realization that there are archers out there who, for whatever reasons, are there just to enjoy the flight of the arrow or the comraderie of fellow archery friends. Some are there just to enjoy the hunt and all the other archery events take a back seat to that. Sounds like you fit in there somewhere and I'm good with that.I still like to compete and will do my best to show others just how well a bow can be shot. With that said I hope I have learned that there is a place for all of us in this great sport.


And here I was thinking you were just older - good post

Matt


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Rat, I'm not a psychiatrist just a fellow archer so no fees will be levied:angel: I have been in archery for 43 years and for most of that time I was guilty, as many on here are, of not being able to understand why everyone wasn't as competitive as I am when shooting their bow. I couldn't understand why different archers wouldn't try to be the best they could be.. As I've gotten older and, hopefully wiser, I have come to the realization that there are archers out there who, for whatever reasons, are there just to enjoy the flight of the arrow or the comraderie of fellow archery friends. Some are there just to enjoy the hunt and all the other archery events take a back seat to that. Sounds like you fit in there somewhere and I'm good with that.I still like to compete and will do my best to show others just how well a bow can be shot. With that said I hope I have learned that there is a place for all of us in this great sport.


Good post. It's amazing how our perceptions change as we get older!

I think that a lot of the G.Fred discussion is missing some historical significance. I've been around this game since the pre-compound days and have seen the entire "Trad" phenomenon develop. Before the Trad movement most recurve shooters shot with much better, traditional type form, in fact a lot of guys were shooting metal risers with sights pre compound. Along came the "Trad" era and a lot of that was lost. For many new guys who had never shoot recurves before there was a void of information on how to do it. G.Fred wasn't a great shooter but he was a great marketer and saw a niche to be filled in the how to be Trad world. He was the first one I remember back in the 80's that promoted a style of shooting with books and videos. This enabled him to reach a large audience of folks who didn't know any other way to shoot. It became quite the vogue to shoot like that because it surely was the "Trad" way to shoot. Unfortunately it still persists to this day but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Due to forums like this one, you tube, and other archery books now available a lot of the newer shooters today are being exposed to other more accurate forms of shooting and are examining many methods never discussed back at the advent of this new era of recurve shooting. It has taken a long time for us to get to this point but I think the corner has been turned and that more and more forms of equipment, and more shooting styles and techniques are now being accepted as Trad. It won't happen overnight but I think that with time the accuracy of recurve shooters will get better and better. The further we move away from the dark ages of the "Trad" movement the better off we will be. In the mean time enjoy shooting however you enjoy it and keep having fun.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

excellent post Old Sarge and others - and it goes back to why I brought up Asbell to begin with - because another poster mentioned that guys use "instinctive" shooting as an excuse for poor shooting - well the only reason that they do that is becuase they associate "instinctive" shooting with the Asbell style - to the point that many posters in this very forum do the same thing - if a guy does not shoot like Asbell - then he is not "truly instinctive" - it is total nonsense - and the sooner we get away from this bs - the better.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Wow, this has been an interesting and somewhat disturbing thread, why do you fellas care so much about how others shoot?...heck I don't care how Asbel, Jenkins, Welch or even how any of you shoot, you aren't me, and I have to find my own way, I've been through a lot this summer with cancer, diverticulitis, and a pinched sciatic nerve that makes it extremely hard to get around and will soon put me under the knife again...I use to practice a lot, but now that I can't hardly walk that quantity practice has been replaced by quality practice, and it seems to have worked, I just returned from the Hoosier fall classic where I averaged a 9+ winning score on the 80 target big game course, 8+, for a second on the 40 target small game course and an 8.4 on the 1 arrow 10 target smoker course for another win....and with all that not a one of those famous fellas and how they shoot even came to mind, now what they shoot works for them and that's great, but as an instictive shooter, shooting a 60+# bow, I've had to find my own way and that's not a bad thing......matter of fact it feels pretty darn good!


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Sharp ,
You have put words in my mouth,..
I NEVER, insinuated,punned,any INSTINCTIVE shooting to the ASBELL style. !!
This was about being ACCURATE at shooting a stick bow. 
I explained the the excuses and how they were worded.. I do Not think one style in BETTER than Another, and have seen the results..
Please do not twist my post...


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Old Sarge said:


> Good post. It's amazing how our perceptions change as we get older!
> 
> I think that a lot of the G.Fred discussion is missing some historical significance. I've been around this game since the pre-compound days and have seen the entire "Trad" phenomenon develop. Before the Trad movement most recurve shooters shot with much better, traditional type form, in fact a lot of guys were shooting metal risers with sights pre compound. Along came the "Trad" era and a lot of that was lost. For many new guys who had never shoot recurves before there was a void of information on how to do it. G.Fred wasn't a great shooter but he was a great marketer and saw a niche to be filled in the how to be Trad world. He was the first one I remember back in the 80's that promoted a style of shooting with books and videos. This enabled him to reach a large audience of folks who didn't know any other way to shoot. It became quite the vogue to shoot like that because it surely was the "Trad" way to shoot. Unfortunately it still persists to this day but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> Due to forums like this one, you tube, and other archery books now available a lot of the newer shooters today are being exposed to other more accurate forms of shooting and are examining many methods never discussed back at the advent of this new era of recurve shooting. It has taken a long time for us to get to this point but I think the corner has been turned and that more and more forms of equipment, and more shooting styles and techniques are now being accepted as Trad. It won't happen overnight but I think that with time the accuracy of recurve shooters will get better and better. The further we move away from the dark ages of the "Trad" movement the better off we will be. In the mean time enjoy shooting however you enjoy it and keep having fun.


You know, I'm one of them who "bought in" to Abell... and bought his books. One thing I disagree with... and you do know my disagreements are my opinions... right... not some statement of fact right... an opinion of my own... ok... now thats out of the way... I read Asbells books and read and read into his words some things that I'm sure are a part of my own shooting style today. One thing that makes me laugh is that picture of what sharp calls taking a crap.... I never got that from Asbells books... what I did get from it is that it is ok to try to take a shot if you're caught in the open by a deer... as I was... and frankly... my very first ever deer was actually killled from a sitting on my butt position.... in the wide open.... was this Asbells influence... I really have no idea.... but I shot a pig from a weird position once as well.... and though that pig treed me for a bit... this thread and your post reminds me of this.

I've yet to read Sharps book on hunting, cuz that is what I shoot for.... or even his book on shooting even though I'm not a target shooter. I love to shoot, but I'm dreaming of hunting while I do it... that and where is my arrow... :grin: nah... that happens very little nowadays..... other than yesterday that is... where a hickory shaft went right through a tire with foam in it from a 45 dorado... that was consternation... a slow arrow has absolutely no penetration I'm told... but I digress... I personally don't think of Asbell, Bear, Jennings, Adams... who I have issues with as well, but who probably was the one who brought us the 50 yard shot, Massey, St. Clair... any differently from each other.... I'm glad that they were there for us... gave us the books to read, the videos to see... and guys like the wensels.... any thoughts on their style of hunting.... I know some instructors absolutely won't talk about wensels, considering them as being the consumate unethical... where I took something entirely different away from it... these all brought to me hours of enjoyment, instruction and perception.

What I find disturbing by those that are held in the highest esteem by the readers of Archery Talk, are those people taking cheap shots at other. "Worst"? By whose standard. Certainly not mine. So why is my perceptions and standards being brought into the equation? This guy... sharp... has an opinion. It is worth NO MORE THAN MINE.
So as long as he, or anyone actually, continues to attribute opinion to fact, I find it my mission to challenge it if I know anything to the contrary.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BigCnyn - ummm where did I ever twist your words or put words in your mouth - all I have ever said is that another poster has said that there were guys using instinctive as an excuse for poor shooting - I SAID THAT I BELIEVE IT IS BECAUSE OF ASBELL - nohwere did I ever say you said anything other than that guys were using instinctive as an excuse for poor scores - assuming you are the one that made that post to begin with.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

one thing this thread illustrates - all of the top shooters in our sport agree


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

All the top shooters in the world posted on this thread?
Or even a tiny fraction of them?

Think Rat is on to something.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Steve - I think/hope he was kidding

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Steve - I think/hope he was kidding
> 
> Matt


You, Gary, me! I didn't think sharp knew who we were but he hit it right on the nailhead.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> one thing this thread illustrates - all of the top shooters in our sport agree


Well I am pretty good , but sheesh ........ 
.... mind you , who am I to argue .....


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

8 pages and 4 of'em are BS arguements. It wouldn't make any difference WHAT he said or if he was right or wrong...he could say it's daylight at noon and one of five or more would start an arguement about potential for cloud cover. Worse than a bunch of women.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Long Rifle said:


> 8 pages and 4 of'em are BS arguements. It wouldn't make any difference WHAT he said or if he was right or wrong...he could say it's daylight at noon and one of five or more would start an arguement about potential for cloud cover. Worse than a bunch of women.


I dressed in drag on a bet once - all 6'6" 300+ pounds does that count??


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt, I heard it was more than just once ......
Not judging either as to be honest I have a great set of pins ......


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ok Matt, following your thread on TT, this is just adding gas to the fire


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

ha .... but weren't you in that film Jono ? ...........


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hey - you guys promised the camera was turned off


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> I dressed in drag on a bet once - all 6'6" 300+ pounds does that count??


You can't make a statement like that and not expect to see this pic.

But then I've always heard to be carful what you ask for...ukey:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Easykeeper said:


> You can't make a statement like that and not expect to see this pic.
> 
> But then I've always heard to be carful what you ask for...ukey:


Before cell phones and I can promise you the cameras were off for that one

Matt


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

It'sgettin really deep now!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

There's always pictures somewhere Matt, always


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

That might be true - it they are still out there they are PAPER so less likely to fall in the the nefarious hands of a guy like you


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Cracking use of the word nefarious Matt, I love that word and feel honored to be assosciated with it


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## Novanglus1774 (Oct 11, 2010)

Well, I don't really have much to add to this now-lengthy and vituperative thread. I just wanted to chime in now that the word 'nefarious' popped up! 

But here's my take: Have fun. Look for Christ in others. Shoot how you like as long as it works. Don't wound animals. 

There it is..my archery philosophy in under 20 words! 

Dave Ray
Oxford, MS


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Novanglus1774 said:


> Well, I don't really have much to add to this now-lengthy and vituperative thread. I just wanted to chime in now that the word 'nefarious' popped up!
> 
> But here's my take: Have fun. Look for Christ in others. Shoot how you like as long as it works. Don't wound animals.
> 
> ...


Where did you find the word vituperative..... fer us here in Hilo... :grin:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Anyone else have any pabulum to add?


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> dressed in drag, 6'6", 300+ pounds


Not words that should ever appear together.:wink:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SteveB said:


> Not words that should ever appear together.:wink:


haha..... except in drag... :grin:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> Anyone else have any pabulum to add?


In the words of the immortal Rodney King R.I.P., " Can't we all just get a longbow"!


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## Toani (Sep 12, 2012)

Looks Like you don't need any more advice. But i'll put my 2 cents in anyways. You should be hitting dead center or close. Check your form and be patient. Practice, practice, practice.


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## Barry O'Regan (Nov 2, 2008)

minnie3 said:


> try moving back to 15y or 20y and see what's happening. those squares are only tiny.
> you may be surprised.


Great Point, Arch may have something to it. 

Just shoot, don't think and have fun and accuracy comes later instinctively!


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