# NAA Nationals/ US Grand PRIX News and results



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Was in town yesterday for the State Games and talked to some friends who were there for practice day.....the youngest said that there were approximately 600 shooters, and that there were alot of hot chicks, then again he's 20 and single.  :thumbs_up :teeth: 

This is his first NAA, but I doubt it will be his last.


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Based on the press release there are about 400 archers competing.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

388 archers, according to the scores posted from the first day.


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## Canadian Buck (Apr 7, 2004)

Are the scores posted anywhere?


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## LittlePig (Dec 8, 2002)

*try this*

http://www.usarchery.org/files/05_nat_target_Day 1 results.pdf


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

So, what's the comparison to previous year concerning turnout. That number seems low to me, but I have nothing to base that on.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Floxter posted the following on another thread:

"2004 - 402
2003 - 485
2002 - 480
Don't hold me to that, as it's from memory."

I see that the NAA press release says attendance this year is "over 400". I did a quick count of the entries from the first days results and came up with only 388. Will re-check figures tonite; maybe I missed some.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Correction: according to results sheets, nbr of entries for this year = 378


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Are the 378 all American archers or does this include foreign shooters? Then what is the number of Americans vs. past years? (Not to exclude foreigners, but I'm guessing their travel expense is relatively the same no matter were it's held in the US  )

Also, do we see an increase on year prior to an Olympic year and a fall off the year after. This doesn't make sense to me as the real Olympic competitors are there regardless, but does this persuade others to participate?


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*nationals*

if the naa would have kept the nationals on the east coast there would have been 600 plus


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

The 378 includes all shooters for which results have been posted, including the few no-shows. Haven't counted the 'Guests' classes.


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## winst (Nov 21, 2002)

> if the naa would have kept the nationals on the east coast there would have been 600 plus




Doubutful, however the entries likely would have been greater "600 plus" is a bit overzealous. Remember this is not an olympic year or the year before the olympics when participation seems to increase. Iam not far away being in Arizona, and would have attended. Gas prices however strained my budget to the breaking point and so iam here hoping that Texarc will continue to post pictures of the event. :wink:


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

I spent too much time upset with some of the folks running the event to take photos. 

They screwed up Lindsey's target assignment on the first day, and again today. 
Instead of putting her on target with the other top female recurves (she finished the first FITA in 6th place, which was purposely not reported in the 2nd day official bulletin), she was put on target with the 27th and 28th archers today. 

They also refused to put her on the leader board with the other female senior recurves, so she and we never knew for sure where she stood till the official bulletin arrived a few minutes ago. She's now 8th, behind Dykman by a couple of points. 
no pictures? :angry: spit.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TexARC said:


> I spent too much time upset with some of the folks running the event to take photos.
> 
> They screwed up Lindsey's target assignment on the first day, and again today.
> Instead of putting her on target with the other top female recurves (she finished the first FITA in 6th place, which was purposely not reported in the 2nd day official bulletin), she was put on target with the 27th and 28th archers today.
> ...


well that just plain sucks-since they now allow her to shoot in both divisions with one registration she deserves to be on the second or third target for certain


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## iceman77_7 (May 5, 2005)

*Windy?*

The scores from today look significantly lower than from the first day. Were the winds a big factor today? 

TexasARC, sorry to hear about your problems with the leaderboard. Lindsey's shooting the same thing as everyone else and should be considered in the same light. Just curious, how do you know they purposely didn't mention that she moved up to sixth in the second day bulletin? Reading through the bulletins, it seems like they always mention the top two or three, then a random smattering of other archers.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

The winds started at 10am, and rose steadily throughout the morning ends. I was not there for the PM rounds so I do not know how windy it was. 

As for the "purposely" statement, that is what I was told and it is consistent with what I was able to learn. Furthermore, note that she was not included in the SFR - results of the second day 





iceman77_7 said:


> The scores from today look significantly lower than from the first day. Were the winds a big factor today?
> 
> TexasARC, sorry to hear about your problems with the leaderboard. Lindsey's shooting the same thing as everyone else and should be considered in the same light. Just curious, how do you know they purposely didn't mention that she moved up to sixth in the second day bulletin? Reading through the bulletins, it seems like they always mention the top two or three, then a random smattering of other archers.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

Nationals would have been kept in PA except Reading didn't want the tournament there. They would have charged the NAA(I think about 10 g's) to host the tournament again. I believe they claimed they were losing money on it. So it's not really the NAA's fault. Secondly, there is usually a large drop off the year after the Olympics, just look at the turnout for all the other competitions and you will probably notice the same percentage drop off. 

The afternoon line today was extremely windy. A head wind, I'm guessing around 20-25mph, that changed slightly left to right in a matter of seconds. Sometimes it was even difficult to stay standing!


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Huggybear is correct about Reading. I t seems that the Chamber of Commerce or perhaps the Better Business Bureau was the host, not the Reading Archery Club where I am a member. The club was asked by the city to stay out of the way. The cities beef was that their subscriber hotels/motels did not get the archer's business. They only represented the higher prilce hotels. The archers did what would be expected of them and they sought out the more seasonably priced motels. Fortunately the NAA was able to move the tournament to CS.

All of this said, based on where the NAA membership lives, it is probably best to have the tournament within driving range of the most people. Our membership is North region 1900, West 1600, South and North 1100. Within the regions the distribution of members is as expected. For the North, most members are from Ohio and Michigan. For the West it is southern California. For the South, Texas has the highest concentration. Archers in the Eastern Region are concentrated in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. If you look at these demographics, a tournament held from Ohio/Michigan east would afford the most opportunity for people to drive. 

The current location is probably the opposite. At CS the fewest people are within driving range.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

huggybear is right: there has been a considerable drop in attendance at the other major tournaments this year. 

Texas Shootout: 2004, 174 versus 2005, 122
AZ Cup: 2004, 273 versus 2005, 148
Gold Cup: 2004, 171 versus 2005, 133

The largest declines came in the recurve classes, with attendance down as much as 50% in some cases.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Here is a quick graph of recent Nats attendance. Maybe a bit ominous? Or explainable?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

In countries like Italy, the maximum distance between north and south is around 1200 km, but we also have a lot of discussion about were to locate our national championships. So, while they change location every year, the average is to have them in the center/north were the majority of the archers that qualify (yes, we have to get a minimum qualification score over 2 FITA rounds and be ranked in the maximum number per class established, in order to be admitted). In 2003 they have been in the south, in 2004 in the center, and this year (9/10/11 september) are goinfg to be in Tourin, in the north. 
Despite from the different conditions, anyhow, there will be no lack of participation, as usually 98% of the qualified will be there. This year, including team membs not qualified individually, over 600...
To have an Idea of the disribution in the various classes, have a look to the list of the qualified at:

http://www.fitarco.net/circolari/3605cicampagnaol.pdf
http://www.fitarco.net/circolari/3605cicampagnaco.pdf
http://www.fitarco.net/circolari/3605cicampagnasq.pdf

Whyle the reality is surely different, I suppose that keeping the event closer to the area most populated by archers will surely get more participation to it. I have been in Oxford in 1990, and if I well remember, at that time participants were already more than 400...


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> In countries like Italy, the maximum distance between north and south is around 1200 km, but we also have a lot of discussion about were to locate our national championships.


Yep, in Texas with 1400 km N to S, we have the same problem...but also the determining factor is who will host it. We do notice an increase in participation when the convenience is factored in. 
Sure enjoyed Canton. Also enjoyed Reading, once I got past the $1200 phone bill the hotel presented to me for local phone calls. (I didn't have to pay, since the desk clerk who had told me it would be non-toll stepped up to rescue me  ) 
I note that the distance from Reading to CS is about 1200 miles, where from Austin to CS is only (!) 900 or so. 14 hour drive for us, was not too bad, though if it were double that I would probably have flown instead. 
Today at shooting beginning the temperature was 59 degrees, with a light northerly wind and mist. As soon as practice was done, the mist turned into downright wet precipitation. I took a few more photos of both the JOAD lines and some of the seniors, and decided to go get warm. 
I'll get the photos resized and uploaded before heading to the field for the PM shoot. brr. 
oh yes, and Julia seems to be in fine fettle, Bill - we missed you but are glad to hear your wing is healing nicely and you are obeying the docs and therapists so well.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Word from Tom Barker at the field is that everything is wet. Cold. Temps started the day at 59 degrees F and have not gone up much if at all. Winds are coming and going, but the rain is very heavy at times. They are running at least an hour behind due to pass-throughs, even on the male recurve targets. 
150 more photos from this morning are uploading now.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

Its a little hot here in Reading, but beautiful for shooting. Definately world record breaking weather. I dont understand why there are so much politics involved in holding a competition. Why did anyone have to pay anyone? Why cant the local club just host it and get a certain % of the registration? Why does the city have to get involved? I just dont get it.


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## iceman77_7 (May 5, 2005)

Weather in Reading wasn't so great last year. If weather's such a big concern, they should just have it in San Diego every year. :tongue:


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

Weather can't be a concern since you can't accurately predict or control it.

Archers know that any time there is a tournament, rain, wind or cold, they've got to shoot in it. Just part of the game. Just like politics are part of the game.

Even when we shot the 2003 World Target Trials in San Diego at the training center the weather sucked for the second day.....

The only thing that does make sense is to hold a tournament on a field that can:
1. Support any number of archers that enter based upon historical data
2. Be close to affordable room and board
3. Not cost the organization running the tourney an arm and a leg if there are already locations where it can be done for free, or for little expense.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

I tend to disagree. I think you can host tournaments at locations that have a higher probability of good weather. For instance, the Texas Shootout is almost guaranteed to be extremely windy every year and almost the same can be said for the Arizona Cup. And it is almost known that every tournament held in Colorado Springs has had bad weather(ask anyone who has shot the Olympic Festivals here or USIACS in 1983). 

Then again, there are fields such as El Dorado Park which you have about a 95% chance of great weather. San Diego generally doesn't have good weather. It's much too windy there(trust me, I trained there for 2 1/2 years and almost every day was extremely windy). 

If we were smart we would locate prime areas that have a high probability of good weather. Now could we find clubs to put the competitions on correctly and willingly is another question. but in all fairness, a true national championships would be one that actually gives competitors an opportunity to actually break the national records. Other countries are smart enough to realize that big scores will be noticed and create confidence and intimidation. 

Better weather conditions also increase participation.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

huggybear said:


> If we were smart we would locate prime areas that have a high probability of good weather. Now could we find clubs to put the competitions on correctly and willingly is another question. but in all fairness, a true national championships would be one that actually gives competitors an opportunity to actually break the national records.


Agreed


I was involved in running the Australian Nationals this year. The venue we used was the best option we had in that we could run a great event there. For the Mens Compound/Womens Recurve target the weather was the worst I had ever seen there, and it was my home club. We had not had rain in 3 months, and it rained. 
For womens Compound/Mens Recurve the weather was perfect with a number of Australian records shot. 
Oh well, shows you can't plan these things. 

In my experiance in Australia however Archery venues are often given to clubs because no one else wanted them, they are almost always poorly positioned weather wise because of this. (with some exceptions)


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

TexARC,
According to MSN Mappoint, the distance between Reading, PA and Colorado Springs is 1671 mi.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

> Now could we find clubs to put the competitions on correctly and willingly is another question.


When was the last time the NAA Outdoor Nationals were hosted by a club?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

huggybear said:


> I tend to disagree. I think you can host tournaments at locations that have a higher probability of good weather. For instance, the Texas Shootout is almost guaranteed to be extremely windy every year and almost the same can be said for the Arizona Cup. And it is almost known that every tournament held in Colorado Springs has had bad weather(ask anyone who has shot the Olympic Festivals here or USIACS in 1983).
> 
> Then again, there are fields such as El Dorado Park which you have about a 95% chance of great weather. San Diego generally doesn't have good weather. It's much too windy there(trust me, I trained there for 2 1/2 years and almost every day was extremely windy).
> 
> ...


agreed. I note the amount of wind at our tournament last year was very unusual. The state shoot at the Park of Roses on labor day weekend in columbus USUALLY is very nice-not much wind. It was the site of the 96 olympic semifinals


nearby Alum Creek Dam -where the well run Buckeye Memorial used to be held a few months earlier was always very windy-and hard to shoot in because the Dam made the wind swirl so you can have two venues within 20 miles of each other and have very different conditions depending on the timing and the geographical features


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

Wind is a fact of life, especially during the summer- as are unsettled weather patterns. Cold in August, torrential rains, at this point, I come to expect this kind of weather when there is an archery tournament. Now if the tournament were held in a different month, say October, then the weather would be more settled in certain areas of the country.

And yes, I know the kids are back in school, and all that.....So it means if August is the month to have the tournament, weather will always be a factor- but not one we can control.

Unless you are going to hold it indoors, good luck in your weather predictions.

As an archer you prepare for the worst, and enjoy anything better than that.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

stodrette said:


> Wind is a fact of life, especially during the summer- as are unsettled weather patterns. Cold in August, torrential rains, at this point, I come to expect this kind of weather when there is an archery tournament. Now if the tournament were held in a different month, say October, then the weather would be more settled in certain areas of the country.
> 
> And yes, I know the kids are back in school, and all that.....So it means if August is the month to have the tournament, weather will always be a factor- but not one we can control.
> 
> ...



sound logic debbie


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

Yes, weather will always be a factor, especially wind and it usually builds after 11am and there is an occasional rain shower just about every where in August. However, the point is you can greatly decrease that factor based on location! I've been living in Colorado Springs for 3 months now just to prepare for the weather conditions here, and believe me they are the most unpredictable I have ever encountered. I mean this is summer and we experienced temps around the 50's today! IN THE SUMMER. And the winds have been extremely strong. There is wind every where yes, but not 25mph winds.

I'm not saying we shouldn't prepare archers for different conditions. What I'm saying is that participation increases with better weather conditions and so do scores. Now maybe some of you don't care about what scores we put up, but the rest of the world does. If we put up world record scores the rest of the world will know it. That would also increase participation from other countries as well. How many people you think want to come shoot our nationals(pay a crap load of money) and get to shoot in crappy weather. Not many. 

I think if someone actually did some analysis on this they would probably come up with some interesting results as to some prime shooting locations.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Maybe Texas Stadium? Open roof, but limited winds....Could get wet if it rained in Dallas in August. (joke)


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Day three of National Target Championships prepare archers for national titles, elimination on Thursday

by Mary Beth Vorwerk – USA Archery

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 3, 2005

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – Vic Wunderle and Jennifer Nichols are holding steady in first place for the recurve category today, while Braden Gellenthien and Jamie Van Natta remain on top for compound following the completion of the FITA long distances at the third day of the 121st National Target Championships.

Tomorrow, the national champions will be determined and elimination will take place following the final round of shooting the FITA short distances. At that time, the field will be cut to the top 64 men and top 64 women in each division for the U.S. Open on Friday.

In men’s recurve, two-time Olympian Vic Wunderle (Mason City, Ill.) is leading the men’s recurve category by 52 points with a score of 1932. Four-time Olympian Butch Johnson (Woodstock, Conn.) is in second with 1880. Scott McKechnie (Orange County, Calif.) jumped up into third place with 1858. University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) archer Nathan McCullough (Colorado Springs, Colo.) is in 5th place today with a score of 1843.

For the recurve women, 2004 Olympian Jennifer Nichols (Cheyenne, Wyo.) remains is the lead once again today with a score of 1953, while Khatuna Lorig (Bloomfield, N.J.) continues to hold second place with a score of 1927. Stephanie Miller (Naperville, Ill.) jumped up to the third spot with 1897 and three-time Olympian Janet Dykman (El Monte, Calif.) is in seventh place with 1806. Lindsey Carmichael (Lago Vista, Texas), a 2004 Paralympian, is right behind Dykman in eighth place with 1804. Local archer Joy Fahrenkrog (Castle Rock, Colo.) is in ninth with 1788. Another local female archer, Danielle McCullough (Colorado Springs, Colo.) remains in 5th place with a 1759 in the junior female recurve category.

Braden Gellenthien (Hudson, Mass.) and his 2003 and 2005 World Target Championship gold medalist teammate Dave Cousins (Standish, Maine) are now holding first and second place respectively with 2046 and 2042 in the male compound category. Chris Deston (Unionville, Conn.) is in third with 2027.

For the compound women, 2004 World Championship and World Games silver medalist Jamie Van Natta (Toledo, Ohio) continues to hold the top spot with a score of 2052. Aya LaBrie (Great Falls, Mont.) jumped into second with a score of 2006, while Jessica Grant (Waddell, Ariz.) is right behind LaBrie in third with 2002.

Jeff Fabry (Tulare, Calif.), a 2004 Paralympic double bronze medalist, remains in first place today for the AR-1 male compound category with a score of 662. Kevin Stone (Adrian, Mich.), Fabry’s 2004 Paralympic team bronze medal teammate is still in first place in the AR-2 male recurve category today with a score of 1637.

National Championship competition continues tomorrow for all categories including men’s and women’s recurve, compound, barebow and crossbow along with youth recurve and compound. The Championships consist of two full FITA rounds to determine the U.S. National Champions on Thursday. The 9th Annual U.S. Open a head-to-head elimination round or Olympic Round (OR) on Friday, August 5 will feature the top 64 qualifiers from each division shooting the adult distances. This OR competition is the same format used during the Olympic Games. The U.S. Open features both U.S. and foreign competitors.

Archers shoot distances that range from 30 to 90 meters, the equivalent of one football field.

For complete results throughout the tournament, please visit www.usarchery.org.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

more up to date release (sorry bout the old one)
:
National Target Champions Determined; Field Down to 64 for U.S. Open

by Mary Beth Vorwerk – USA Archery

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 4, 2005

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – The field was cut to 64 in the men’s and women’s recurve and men’s compound categories and 32 in the women’s compound category today, bringing an end to the 121st National Target Championships and setting the stage for tomorrow’s 9th Annual U.S. Open. Vic Wunderle and Jennifer Nichols captured national titles for recurve, while Dave Cousins and Jamie Van Natta took the national titles on the compound side.

Two-time Olympian Vic Wunderle (Mason City, Ill.) took the national title in the men’s recurve category after finishing with a score of 2604. Four-time Olympian and last year’s national champion Butch Johnson (Woodstock, Conn.) finished second with 2547 while Shawn Rice (Albuquerque, N.M.) took third with 2507. University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) archer Nathan McCullough (Colorado Springs, Colo.) finished in 10th place with 2449.

After leading the women’s recurve division all week, 2004 Olympian Jennifer Nichols (Cheyenne, Wyo.) won her second national title in a row finishing with a score of 2612. Republic of Georgia native Khatuna Lorig (Bloomfield, N.J.), a 2005 World Target Championship team member took second place with a score of 2604 while Stephanie Miller (Naperville, Ill.) finished third with 2527. Lindsey Carmichael (Lago Vista, Texas), a 2004 Paralympian, finished in seventh place with 2439 and local archer Joy Fahrenkrog (Castle Rock, Colo.) finished the tournament in eighth place with 2435. Three-time Olympian Janet Dykman (El Monte, Calif.) finished right behind Fahrenkrog in ninth place with a score of 2433. In the junior female recurve category, another local archer Danielle McCullough (Colorado Springs, Colo.) took fourth place with a 2387.

Dave Cousins (Standish, Maine) jumped into first place today to win his seventh consecutive National Target Championships with a score of 2758 in men’s compound. Braden Gellenthien (Hudson, Mass.) finished in second place with total score of 2751. Chris Deston (Unionville, Conn.) took third with a score of 2732.

Jamie Van Natta (Toledo, Ohio) won her second consecutive National Target Championship title in the women’s compound category finishing with a score of 2726. Aya LaBrie (Great Falls, Mont.) took second with 2686 and Jessica Grant (Waddell, Ariz.) finished in third place with 2670.

Jeff Fabry (Tulare, Calif.), a 2004 Paralympic double bronze medalist, took the national title in the AR-1 male compound category after finishing the tournament with a score of 2705. Kevin Stone (Adrian, Mich.), Fabry’s 2004 Paralympic team bronze medal teammate won the national title in the AR-2 male recurve category with a score of 2238.

Over 400 archers from around the country including Olympians, Paralympians, World Champions, United States Archery Team (USAT) members, world record holders, top junior archers and international archers from Australia, Canada, Denmark, Japan, Great Britain, Mexico, Norway and Taiwan competed for the national title in Colorado Springs this week.

Tomorrow will conclude the tournament with the 9th Annual U.S. Open, a head-to-head elimination round or Olympic Round (OR) that will feature the top 64 qualifiers in the men’s and women’s recurve and men’s compound categories and 32 in the women’s compound category shooting from a distance of 70 meters. This OR competition is the same format used during the Olympic Games. The U.S. Open features both U.S. and foreign competitors.

Youth archers finished the National Target Championships today after competing all week with top U.S. and international athletes for the national title. The following youth archers were awarded the top three placements in their respective categories:

Bowman Female Compound: Coral McMinn - 2810
Bowman Female Recurve: Kiley Larrick – 2622, Anna Noble – 1955, Rachel Hernandez - 1216
Bowman Male Compound: Wayne Reader – 2850, Keegan DePriest – 2818, Kyle Marvin - 2577
Bowman Male Recurve: Andrew Noble – 2722, Sean Lemberg – 2364, Codey Borges - 2306
Bowman Male Recurve Guest: Sebastian Drake – 2415
Cadet Male Recurve: Dan Schuller – 2550, Timothy Noble – 2437, Glen Thomas – 2411
Cadet Male Recurve Guest: Diego Roman Arroyo – 2225
Cadet Female Recurve: Trelaina Borges – 2471, Melissa Ash – 2412, Annette Gorelik –
2401
Cadet Female Recurve Guest: Janeth Garcia Monje – 2527, Karina Oviedo Soto - 2507
Cadet Female Compound: Robyn Repp – 2697, Elissa Falconer – 2697, Allison Lorenti – 2665
Cadet Female Compound Guest: Maria Jesus Gutierrez - 2571
Cadet Male Compound: Ryan Day – 2721, Matthew Mamo – 2693, Shaun Larsen – 2680
Cadet Male Compound Guest: Antonio Sanchez – 2505
Cub Male Recurve: Daniel Goshorn – 2607, Richard McCullough Jr. – 2556, Barrett Sinclair – 2498
Cub Male Recurve Guest: Rolando Nichols Verdiales – 2369
Cub Female Recurve: Emily Blake – 2238, Whay Cheng – 2137
Cub Male Compound: Eric Plourde – 2677, Austin Lawrence – 2668, Joey Hunt III – 2602
Cub Female Compound: Kendal Nicely – 2744, Ashley Baker – 2613

For complete National Championship results in all categories, please visit www.usarchery.org


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

TexARC said:


> Maybe Texas Stadium? Open roof, but limited winds....Could get wet if it rained in Dallas in August. (joke)



They will be razing that stadium before we could ever get into it  

Guy, you are right, if a study were done- and I'm sure that www.weather.com (weather Channel) has done it....And they would conclude that August is not the month for the kind of weather one would like in the continental US.

I think a better issue is the half FITA/day issue. We should be shooting full FITA's- room permitting, of course.... :mg:


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Want to pick a spot for the Nationals based on the probability of good weather? Weather data is perhaps the most complete and extensive set of data collected on anything in the U.S. It has been collected for over 100 years and is publicly available. The data is there, all you gotta do is look it up. 

Granted, historical averages, even if they are 100 years of observations, will not prevent you from getting wet or cold, but they will put the odds of having acceptable weather in your favor and you will have at least an idea of the liklihood of undesirable weather going in.

Combining weather criteria with minimizing participant transportation costs and you *probably* come out, guess where? Somewhere in the region through the lower to mid- midwest, say, Memphis, St. Louis, Louisville, Cincinnati (*Oxford, Ohio*?), Columbus, Indianappolis, etc. Disclaimer: haven't looked at the data, its just a guess!

Then of course, the costs of staging the event would have to be considered. How much does the NAA save by holding the Nats in CS versus somewhere else?


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

huggybear said:


> Yes, weather will always be a factor, especially wind and it usually builds after 11am and there is an occasional rain shower just about every where in August. However, the point is you can greatly decrease that factor based on location! I've been living in Colorado Springs for 3 months now just to prepare for the weather conditions here, and believe me they are the most unpredictable I have ever encountered. I mean this is summer and we experienced temps around the 50's today! IN THE SUMMER. And the winds have been extremely strong. There is wind every where yes, but not 25mph winds.
> 
> I'm not saying we shouldn't prepare archers for different conditions. What I'm saying is that participation increases with better weather conditions and so do scores. Now maybe some of you don't care about what scores we put up, but the rest of the world does. If we put up world record scores the rest of the world will know it. That would also increase participation from other countries as well. How many people you think want to come shoot our nationals(pay a crap load of money) and get to shoot in crappy weather. Not many.
> 
> I think if someone actually did some analysis on this they would probably come up with some interesting results as to some prime shooting locations.


Great post! Exactly what I was thinking. :thumbs_up

I am sure I could have gathered the money and made it to CS but all the talk about the weather there, plus the fact that I am not at the top of my game which is needed in that weather. I didnt want to spend the money to go there and have crappy weather all week and be dissapointed in my score. I know weather is unavoidable and not predictable enough to make plans a year in advance, but everyone knew once the decision was annnounced that the weather would most likely not cooperate. As far as weather and participation goes, I would thnk PA, IL, and OH would be about the best.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

stodrette said:


> They will be razing that stadium before we could ever get into it
> 
> Guy, you are right, if a study were done- and I'm sure that www.weather.com (weather Channel) has done it....And they would conclude that August is not the month for the kind of weather one would like in the continental US.
> 
> I think a better issue is the half FITA/day issue. We should be shooting full FITA's- room permitting, of course.... :mg:


yes shooting a full FITA would be pretty nice and would make it easier to attend both NAA and NFAA nationals but with 2 lines, it takes ALL day. The half day format is nice. You get time to relax and make a vacation out of your trip other than just shooting. Not to mention the practice you get at 50m that you dont get in a full FITA.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

stodrette said:


> Wind is a fact of life, especially during the summer- as are unsettled weather patterns. Cold in August, torrential rains, at this point, I come to expect this kind of weather when there is an archery tournament. Now if the tournament were held in a different month, say October, then the weather would be more settled in certain areas of the country.
> 
> And yes, I know the kids are back in school, and all that.....So it means if August is the month to have the tournament, weather will always be a factor- but not one we can control.
> 
> ...


Yes, another post from me  


This makes me think of something I say every year. We have our USAT competitions 1. When it is too cold up north to really get prepared 2. when it is too darn hot to be outside all day and full of thunderstorms.

Why does the outdoor season end in august when the most beautiful shooting weather is in September and October? Why cram 3 USAT shoots into a month when you can move one to the fall or just add another one? Not to mention that the kids have JOAD nationals and dont really need to go to NAA nationals so school is not a major factor.


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## libby_white (May 14, 2005)

Brad Rega said:


> Yes, another post from me
> 
> 
> This makes me think of something I say every year. We have our USAT competitions 1. When it is too cold up north to really get prepared 2. when it is too darn hot to be outside all day and full of thunderstorms.
> ...


Maybe it ends then because it fits in with the international calendar?


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

Since I had a few minutes, I did a little research:
City July ave temp Jul ave precip/Aug ave precip
Reading, PA(for Brad) 83/62 4.07/3.61

Springfield, IL 87/66 3.53/3.41

Colorado Springs 84/55 2.85/3.48

Chula Vista, CA 76/64 .03/.08

College Station, TX 96/74 1.92/2.63

Cincinnati, OH 87/66 3.86/3.97

Salt Lake City 89/67 .71/.64

Now, since we know that wind can not stop a tournament- unless attached to a storm, and excess rain/thunderstorms can, REALLY, according to this data, where should the tournament be held, assume weather as a major factor....

I think what this tells us is that the NAA is not nearly as concerned about weather as the archer is.....


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

stodrette said:


> Now, since we know that wind can not stop a tournament- unless attached to a storm, and excess rain/thunderstorms can, REALLY, according to this data, where should the tournament be held, assume weather as a major factor....


I think one must include winds as a separate and significant factor, not because it can STOP a tournament, but rather because it is a huge influence in the performance of archers in a tournament. It would be good to have a column of average winds, in other words.



stodrette said:


> I think what this tells us is that the NAA is not nearly as concerned about weather as the archer is.....


I have felt that many factors, especially financial, played a part in the selection of the venue/host, with weather being fairly low on the list. But to say that the NAA is not concerned may be a little on the extreme side and somewhat unfair. (and Lord knows I have enough bones to pick with the NAA at this point )
I think the weather is always going to be a crapshoot - Hold it in Austin, no chance of rain and very little wind but lots of heatstroke. Hold it in the Southeast region, and a hurricane comes and makes the "river runs through it" Reading event look like a little extra humidity. Here in the mountains of Colorado, we got well, what we got. 
We easily recall what happened in Reading. In the Canton events as well, I recall huge windstorms wrecking most of the tents and rain deluges swamping things. Unless we can rent out a huge domed stadium to play in, weather of some sort will play a factor. And archers will either want to shoot, or not, regardless of where it is, depending on their level of dedication to the sport and to the NAA. 
Of course, I am still drying out all the gear around the hotel room here in CS at this point.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

> Why does the outdoor season end in august when the most beautiful shooting weather is in September and October?


Have often wondered the same thing. With respect to Outdoor Nats, the main reasons scheduling in the summer are of course, school and vacation time. A week long tournament with youth participation is almost impossible during the school year. And adults seem more reluctant to schedule vacation time then as well. For many of course, its both considerations.

I've always thought consideration should be given to having the Outdoor Nats the week of the Labor Day holiday. Outdoor Nats seem to be the logical season-ender tournament and Labor Day weekend the logical time for a summer season-ender. But every time I bring it up, I get shouted down --because it would take away the Labor Day Holiday!!! The disadvantage I see is that it complicates the schedule for those with kids whose school starts that week or in some cases, before. So I then suggest the week leading up to the Labor Day holiday and get pretty much the same response. You simply can't please everyone.

And I do think that we can set our outdoor champs so as to minimize interference with international tournaments. We should not let others dictate our schedule.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

oldreliable67 said:


> Have often wondered the same thing. With respect to Outdoor Nats, the main reasons scheduling in the summer are of course, school and vacation time. A week long tournament with youth participation is almost impossible during the school year. And adults seem more reluctant to schedule vacation time then as well. For many of course, its both considerations.
> 
> I've always thought consideration should be given to having the Outdoor Nats the week of the Labor Day holiday. Outdoor Nats seem to be the logical season-ender tournament and Labor Day weekend the logical time for a summer season-ender. But every time I bring it up, I get shouted down --because it would take away the Labor Day Holiday!!! The disadvantage I see is that it complicates the schedule for those with kids whose school starts that week or in some cases, before. So I then suggest the week leading up to the Labor Day holiday and get pretty much the same response. You simply can't please everyone.
> 
> And I do think that we can set our outdoor champs so as to minimize interference with international tournaments. We should not let others dictate our schedule.


almost every school starts before labor day now.

as you get into later September-the bambi busters are out in force and more that a few target shooters don't want to crim deer hunting

We had our state Field last year in mid september and it was alot nicer than usual in not having to deal with lots of heat


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

I missed the '04 Reading Nats and that deluge, but I was in Canton for that flood. But, remember, in Reading, the weather the year before the flood was very nice. And the weather in Canton for the other two years was pretty darned good, IIRC. I only made a couple of the Ohio Nats, both of which were beautiful weather-wise, and I'm told that over the longer term, the weather there was typically very nice.

So sure, you can't go anywhere and be *assured* of perfect weather, but you can select a venue where the odds are more in your favor.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

Yes there are better cities to host the competition than reading. My point is that this year it was supposed to be here in reading, and if it was (though a little sticky and we tied the record high of 96 for yesterday) Max wind all week was 11 mph which was this afternoon and not a single drop of rain. The year before last went very well also during competition. Last year was a freak occurance. Not to mention all the sightseeing around the area, including several amusement parks within an hours drive. It makes a great place for a family vacation.

Here is a list of average wind speeds by city
City Average Wind Speed 
MT. WASHINGTON, NH 35 
ST. PAUL ISLAND, AK 17 
COLD BAY,AK 16 
BLUE HILL, MA 15 
JOHNSTON ISLAND, PC 15 
BARTER IS.,AK 13 
DODGE CITY, KS 13 
KWAJALEIN, MARSHALL IS., 13 
WAKE ISLAND, PC 13 
AMARILLO, TX 13 
BARROW, AK 12 
BETHEL, AK 12 
KOTZEBUE, AK 12 
KAHULUI, HI 12 
LIHUE, HI 12 
CONCORDIA, KS 12 
GOODLAND, KS 12 
WICHITA, KS 12 
BOSTON, MA 12 
ROCHESTER, MN 12 
GREAT FALLS, MT 12 
CLAYTON, NM 12 
NEW YORK (LAGUARDIA AP), 12 
FARGO, ND 12 
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 12 
CORPUS CHRISTI, TX 12 
LUBBOCK, TX 12 
CASPER, WY 12 
CHEYENNE, WY 12 
KODIAK, AK 11 
BRIDGEPORT, CT 11 
HONOLULU,HI 11 
SIOUX CITY, IA 11 
DULUTH, MN 11 
BILLINGS, MT 11 
GRAND ISLAND, NE 11 
NORFOLK, NE 11 
BUFFALO, NY 11 
NEW YORK (JFK AP), NY 11 
CAPE HATTERAS, NC 11 
SEXTON SUMMIT, OR 11 
PAGO PAGO, AMER SAMOA, PC 11 
ERIE, PA. 11 
ABERDEEN, SD 11 
HURON, SD 11 
RAPID CITY, SD 11 
SIOUX FALLS, SD 11 
ABILENE, TX 11 
BROWNSVILLE, TX 11 
GALVESTON, TX 11 
MIDLAND-ODESSA, TX 11 
WACO, TX 11 
WICHITA FALLS, TX 11 
MILWAUKEE, WI 11 
ANNETTE, AK 10 
KING SALMON, AK 10 
NOME, AK 10 
SAN FRANCISCO AP, CA 10 
COLORADO SPRINGS, CO 10 
KEY WEST, FL 10 
POCATELLO, ID 10 
CHICAGO,IL 10 
SPRINGFIELD, IL 10 
SOUTH BEND, IN 10 
DES MOINES, IA 10 
WATERLOO, IA 10 
CARIBOU, ME 10 
WORCESTER, MA 10 
DETROIT, MI 10 
FLINT, MI 10 
MUSKEGON, MI 10 
MINNEAPOLIS-ST.PAUL, MN 10 
KANSAS CITY, MO 10 
SPRINGFIELD, MO 10 
GLASGOW, MT 10 
LINCOLN, NE 10 
NORTH PLATTE, NE 10 
OMAHA EPPLEY AP, NE 10 
SCOTTSBLUFF, NE 10 
ELY, NV 10 
NEWARK, NJ 10 
BINGHAMTON, NY 10 
BISMARCK, ND 10 
CLEVELAND, OH 10 
MANSFIELD, OH 10 
TULSA, OK 10 
MAJURO, MARSHALL IS, PC 10 
BLOCK IS.,RI 10 
PROVIDENCE, RI 10 
DALLAS-FORT WORTH, TX 10 
SAN ANGELO, TX 10 
NORFOLK, VA 10 
WILMINGTON, DE 9 
WASHINGTON NAT'L AP, D.C. 9 
MIAMI, FL 9 
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 9 
ATLANTA, GA 9 
MOLINE, IL 9 
PEORIA, IL 9 
ROCKFORD, IL 9 
FORT WAYNE, IN 9 
INDIANAPOLIS, IN 9 
TOPEKA, KS 9 
GREATER CINCINNATI AP 9 
LEXINGTON, KY 9 
GRAND RAPIDS, MI 9 
LANSING, MI 9 
SAULT STE. MARIE, MI 9 
COLUMBIA, MO 9 
ST. LOUIS, MO 9 
OMAHA (NORTH), NE 9 
VALENTINE, NE 9 
LAS VEGAS, NV 9 
ATLANTIC CITY AP, NJ 9 
NEW YORK C.PARK, NY 9 
ROCHESTER, NY 9 
SYRACUSE, NY 9 
WILLISTON, ND 9 
AKRON, OH 9 
DAYTON, OH 9 
TOLEDO, OH 9 
YOUNGSTOWN, OH 9 
ALLENTOWN, PA 9 
PHILADELPHIA, PA 9 
PITTSBURGH, PA 9 
AUSTIN, TX 9 
DEL RIO, TX 9 
PORT ARTHUR, TX 9 
SAN ANTONIO, TX 9 
VICTORIA, TX 9 
BURLINGTON, VT 9 
GREEN BAY, WI 9 
MADISON, WI 9 
HUNTSVILLE, AL 8 
MOBILE, AL 8 
BIG DELTA,AK 8 
JUNEAU, AK 8 
TUCSON, AZ 8 
WINSLOW, AZ 8 
SAN FRANCISCO C.O., CA 8 
DENVER, CO 8 
GRAND JUNCTION, CO 8 
PUEBLO, CO 8 
HARTFORD, CT 8 
DAYTONA BEACH, FL 8 
FORT MYERS, FL 8 
ORLANDO, FL 8 
PENSACOLA, FL 8 
TAMPA, FL 8 
VERO BEACH, FL 8 
BOISE, ID 8 
CAIRO,IL 8 
EVANSVILLE, IN 8 
LOUISVILLE, KY 8 
LAKE CHARLES, LA 8 
NEW ORLEANS, LA 8 
SHREVEPORT, LA 8 
PORTLAND, ME 8 
BALTIMORE, MD 8 
ALPENA, MI 8 
HOUGHTON LAKE, MI 8 
INTERNATIONAL FALLS, MN 8 
SAINT CLOUD, MN 8 
WINNEMUCCA, NV 8 
ALBUQUERQUE, NM 8 
ROSWELL, NM 8 
ALBANY, NY 8 
ISLIP, NY 8 
WILMINGTON, NC 8 
COLUMBUS, OH 8 
ASTORIA, OR 8 
PENDLETON, OR 8 
GUAM, PC 8 
CHUUK, E. CAROLINE IS., P 8 
YAP, W CAROLINE IS., PC 8 
AVOCA, PA 8 
CHARLESTON AP,SC 8 
MEMPHIS, TN 8 
NASHVILLE, TN 8 
EL PASO, TX 8 
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 8 
SEATTLE SEA-TAC AP, WA 8 
SPOKANE, WA 8 
SAN JUAN, PR 8 
BECKLEY, WV 8 
LA CROSSE, WI 8 
SHERIDAN, WY 8 
BIRMINGHAM AP,AL 7 
ANCHORAGE, AK 7 
HOMER, AK 7 
YAKUTAT, AK 7 
YUMA, AZ 7 
FORT SMITH, AR 7 
LITTLE ROCK, AR 7 
LOS ANGELES AP, CA 7 
SACRAMENTO, CA 7 
SAN DIEGO, CA 7 
SANTA MARIA, CA 7 
STOCKTON, CA 7 
ALAMOSA, CO 7 
WASHINGTON DULLES AP, D.C 7 
APALACHICOLA, FL 7 
JACKSONVILLE, FL 7 
ATHENS, GA 7 
MACON, GA 7 
SAVANNAH, GA 7 
HILO, HI 7 
PADUCAH KY 7 
BATON ROUGE, LA 7 
JACKSON, MS 7 
HELENA, MT 7 
ASHEVILLE, NC 7 
CHARLOTTE, NC 7 
GREENSBORO-WNSTN-SALM-HGH 7 
RALEIGH, NC 7 
EUGENE, OR 7 
PORTLAND, OR 7 
SALEM, OR 7 
HARRISBURG, PA 7 
MIDDLETOWN/HARRISBURG INT 7 
WILLIAMSPORT, PA 7 
GREENVILLE-SPARTANBURG AP 7 
HOUSTON, TX 7 
LYNCHBURG, VA 7 
RICHMOND, VA 7 
ROANOKE, VA 7 
YAKIMA, WA 7 
MONTGOMERY, AL 6 
BETTLES,AK 6 
GULKANA,AK 6 
VALDEZ, AK 6 
FLAGSTAFF, AZ 6 
PHOENIX, AZ 6 
BAKERSFIELD, CA 6 
BLUE CANYON, CA 6 
EUREKA, CA. 6 
FRESNO, CA 6 
LONG BEACH, CA 6 
LOS ANGELES C.O., CA 6 
REDDING, CA 6 
SANTA BARBARA, CA 6 
GAINESVILLE, FL 6 
TALLAHASSEE, FL 6 
AUGUSTA,GA 6 
COLUMBUS, GA 6 
JACKSON, KY 6 
MERIDIAN, MS 6 
TUPELO, MS 6 
KALISPELL, MT 6 
MISSOULA, MT 6 
RENO, NV 6 
CONCORD, NH 6 
KOROR, PC 6 
POHNPEI, CAROLINE IS., PC 6 
COLUMBIA, SC 6 
CHATTANOOGA, TN 6 
KNOXVILLE, TN 6 
OLYMPIA, WA 6 
QUILLAYUTE, WA 6 
ELKINS, WV 6 
HUNTINGTON, WV 6 
LANDER, WY 6 
FAIRBANKS, AK 5 
MCGRATH, AK 5 
MOUNT SHASTA, CA 5 
ELKO, NV 5 
BRISTOL-JHNSN CTY-KNGSPRT 5 
CHARLESTON, WV 5 
TALKEETNA, AK 4 
MEDFORD, OR 4 
OAK RIDGE,TN 4


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Brad,

Not to nit-pick but I don't think you can use average *annual* wind speed (or precip or temp) as an indicator. For example, your data shows CS with an average wind speed of 10 mph. Don't tell that to the folks that were competing there this week! The data is available by month and by day. If your going to look at weather as a criteria, it has to be day or at least week specific.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

:zip: Listen folks...

This is beginning to sound like a bunch of rubber goat shooters whining about all the trials and tribulations that they endure. :wink: 

It is my opinion that regardless of the location the spectators (those that did not choose to go to CO Springs) will never be happy with the location, weather, temp, humidity or commendations. I am VERY happy with the NAA Nats experience of this last week. The fact that I saw many friends and made many new ones is priceless to me. Even after shooting in a steady rain for 4~ hours I am still VERY happy that I drove for 9 hours.

I know that some of you could not be there for reasons other that because of where the tournament was held. The experience alone justifies the rain, wind, heat, low humidity, BEAUTIFUL surroundings and being able to shoot arrows with some the best folks you would ever hope to meet...

Let’s put this to bed and use your "arm chair analysis" to help find a way to attend the NAA Target Nationals in August 2006 in Colorado Springs...



Stan :beer:


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

My point too! I would have been there if my rehab program were that far along....

Quite frankly, I don't care where it is, I'm going to shoot it if physically and fiscally able. I don't care about the weather- it is what it is. What's most important to me is adhering to the rules, assuring that all archers get their fair shot, reasonably priced good food & board....

That's pretty much it.

Bring on 2006!!


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

The BBQ this evening, in a tent on the parking lot beside the field, was great. The sun set through the clouds just to the side of Pike's Peak, over the still-wet green grass glistening in the shafts of rays beaming down. The food and company was really good, it was over with too quick, and there were far too many archers missing who had already left. The way the awards were presented went well and fast. I can't gripe about anything at all - a very good week, despite the trials and tribulations. We'll be here next year if at all possible.
and major kudos to HUGGYBEAR, who really shot like a girl!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Windy AZ Cup?*



huggybear said:


> ... For instance, the Texas Shootout is almost guaranteed to be extremely windy every year and almost the same can be said for the Arizona Cup. ...QUOTE]
> 
> Huggybear,
> 
> ...


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

I don't know when I have enjoyed the event more regarding the person in the DOS stand talking to the crowd, than when Bob Pian (serious fun) was conducting the crowd through the NAA Nationals. In control, well spoken, and never boring, Bob did one heckuva fine job this year at both the AZ Cup as well as the NAA Nationals. I sure hope to find him in more DOS stands in the future!!!
Thanks Bob. 

Ahem, now, surely you are not suggesting that the winds at the AZ cup did not have the flags standing straight out from the poles at times, even this last year? 
They were not horrible, and I don't think they were any worse than the Shootout I also attended (as a member of the peanut gallery, only), but they were at times a significant factor  The early morning ends at the AZ cup, though, are a delight, as the hot air balloons in the photos will attest. (along with the flags<G>):
http://texasarchery.org/Photos/AZCup2005/AZIndex.htm

I'll gladly go to Phoenix for the Cup anytime. As should any target archer interested in a good time and a good, well-run and well-conducted, shoot.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

PS - a last couple of photos, nothing great and no archery, are posted now on the website. All done but the 14 hrs. drive home.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

Well, the winds I refer to have been almost every year to my recollection. In the OR, almost every year by the time the semi finals occur it is extremely windy. I can remember one such(I think 2 years ago) that Dave Cousins actually shot an arrow into the dirt because his competitor could not get his arrow off in time because it was so windy. Most of the scores in the finals have been low(below 108 and sometimes around 100!). And I can recall several times there was only 1 or 2 1300 scores when there probably should have been more. 

It's not a reflection of the organization of the tournament but simply the location. Any competition in the desert is going to be extremely windy by the afternoon. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing necessarily. I'm just saying if we are ranked according to our scores, then when should shoot in some locations that will actually benefit archers. More competitions is better, I believe, and in varied weather conditions.

Someone will always win regardless of the weather conditions, but what exactly are we looking for here? National ranking competitions that make it extremely difficult for archers to get good scores, or competitions that prepare them to shoot great scores. I'm not whining about weather conditions because it's actually an advantage to me comparitively to others(I think), but it would be nice to have the opportunity to shoot good scores(and remember 1300 is not necessarily a good score these days considering the women's world record is 1405 and men's is 1379!) 

Thanks Ron! It was a pleasure shooting in the finals and with such wonderful people cheering me on I couldn't have asked for more. I'm glad it turned out to be such an exciting final for everyone as well, and it's always fun shooting with Vic. Thanks everyone for your support. I greatly appreciated it.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Huggybear,

So you have been to the AZ Cup in the last five years at Ben Avery.
I thought you were implying that the winds at the Texas shootout and the AZ Cup were virtually the same. 
My mistake and apologies.
I know you are referring to our Desert Dust Devils that can swirl thru the Ben Avery range in the late afternoons that interrupt an otherwise typical fine AZ April day.
And if you attended the 2004 AZ Cup I can see where the every year statement comes from.
(For those that haven’t seen one, a dust devil is a tiny twister like swirl of wind and can be “extreme” but very different from a Texas shootout wind.
Thrilling to watch, not so satisfying for a match player that must shoot in a specific 40 second period, though the sportsmanship shown by Dave Cousins was notable if not remarkable.)

Again, now that we shoot one line in the AM, it is unlikely we will encounter a dust devil.
In fact there is talk of limiting the number of archers to about 250 seniors and Para Olympians to insure that we never shoot a PM line.
Archers tell us that they enjoy shooting all together and socializing together afterwards.

We also can shoot the 32nd elimination round in the early afternoon after the second ½ of the FITA so the Medal matches do not extend into the late afternoon the following day.

I believe that all tournament organizers want to serve their clients, in our case the competitors. 
We actively seek improvements and welcome comments and suggestions.
Most importantly we try to act on them when possible and affordable.
The all AM shooting time is a prime example.

It is important to us that the archers know of the improvements we make on their behalf.
Our reputation depends on it.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> I know you are referring to our Desert Dust Devils that can swirl thru the Ben Avery range in the late afternoons that interrupt an otherwise typical fine AZ April day.
> And if you attended the 2004 AZ Cup I can see where the every year statement comes from.
> (For those that haven’t seen one, a dust devil is a tiny twister like swirl of wind and can be “extreme” but very different from a Texas shootout wind.
> Thrilling to watch, not so satisfying for a match player that must shoot in a specific 40 second period, though the sportsmanship shown by Dave Cousins was notable if not remarkable.)


Bob, the incident you refer to did not involve a passing "dust devil"- winds were gusting 15-30 mph all that afternoon.

AZ Cup is definitely an event where it's windy at least half of the time. In fact, I recall one AZ Cup (at ASU, back when it was a first-class international tournament) where competition had to be stopped halfway through 30M due to dangerous wind speeds- Saunders matts were being picked up and thrown several feet.

Of course, the Texas shoot-out events are memorable for the times when they are *not* windy...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't understand all this talk about wind. THAT'S WHY WE SHOOT OUTDOORS! It's part of the game!

Whining about wind will do nothing more than ensure a negative, unproductive attitude when it starts to blow. Last I checked, it was the same wind for everyone on the line.

We already have tournaments where wind is not a factor. They are called INDOOR tournaments  

Personally, I love it when it starts to blow. But maybe that's just me...

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I don't understand all this talk about wind. THAT'S WHY WE SHOOT OUTDOORS! It's part of the game!
> 
> Whining about wind will do nothing more than ensure a negative, unproductive attitude when it starts to blow. Last I checked, it was the same wind for everyone on the line.
> 
> ...



that you have a 38" draw doesn't hurt either  best memory from the 04 trials-Guy Kruger pulling out one of your javelins from your quiver and comparing it to his own arrow and whining ITS NOT FAIR ITS NOT FAIR


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*AZ Cup hi jack thread*

Sorry for hi jacking the thread a little...

I would love the AZ Cup to be a first class world ranking tournament again but first we need to make our National Target Championships first class. 
Thanks to the effort of the NAA with Copanarco, the National Target Championship will be a world ranking tournament in 2006 in Colorado Springs.
I imagine a time when the NAA/National Target Championship offers airport shuttle, meal plans with flexible menus, lodging packages, and scheduled shuttle busses between hotel and field in addition to a well run tournament on the field. 

This year the Chinese Taipei team (10 juniors and 6 leaders) needed a professional tour operator to accompany them. She made all the travel arrangements including a chartered bus just for her team. I dont know if they cooked their own food. (I should have asked)

Traveling oversees with limited language skills is tough, especially when you are off the beaten path. It would be nice if we could greet our guest at the airport and give them a world class experience until they leave. (My hidden agenda for such a set up is to encourage our US collegiate archers that are to young too be able to rent a car to be able to take part in the National Target Championships independently, getting rid of mom and dad or better yet letting the parents work the tourney without worrying about travel logistics)

Along with making the National Target Championship world class, we need to focus on our whole "package" of Championship, USAT, Jr USAT qualifying tournments. Sort of like the PGA tour. Tournament organizers, judges, equipment, schedules and venues must all be made to run and be "the best".

Its going to take a lot of volunteer support to make it happen year in and year out and I suspect more costly in entry fees.

Are our US archers willing to pay for an upgraded Championship competition? To high and we may have more foreign archers than NAA/NFAA members.


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

Hey all!

Returned from Colorado late this afternoon after combating the little 4 year old (he definately was more of a pest than wind or rain at a tourney!) in the seat next to me on the plane from CO to my connection in Chicago in route to Allentown. I was pretty happy with my shooting and looking forward for when outdoors starts again next spring. I met so many cool people from many countries, including one particular person who definately stood out among all, Mel Clarke of Great Britain. Shooting on a target with her the first two days was definately a blast! Thanks Mel for making it fun!

I think everyone did a great job this year getting nationals off to a start in Co Springs. Yes, we did have a few boo-boos in the scoring department (but we are all human and they were all corrected before Friday's Grand Prix) but all in all it was a great time. I learn more and more about shooting in the windy and rainy conditions and this week was no exception.

A BIG thanks to TexARC for taking the time to take the hundreds of photos he does at tournaments - he really brings the excitement back to those who could not make it. :thumbs_up Also a big thanks to Bob Pian and all the judges who took the time to spend the nice weather and the rainy with us!

I, like many in the northeast, wish the tourney was in Reading PA once more year but having it in Colorado actually was not a terrible choice of location. There was tons to do in the off shooting hours around Co. Springs and all I can say was anyone who did not get a chance to shoot this year really should check it out next year. I know I am definately making plans for next year already!

~Scoobs~


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*More credit where credit is due.*

More credit where credit is due.

Tom Green was the Tournament Director and received a rousing applause for his efforts from the archers at the BBQ Banquet, his reputation speaks for itself.
Lance Van Natta was the Field Director and shared in the applause, he has been doing the thankless job for years.
FITA judge Marty Swanson was the Chairman of Judges who managed an army of judges on three fields with no tournament delaying protests!
Continental Judge, Linda Cockrell was the DOS on the main field, Minnesotans are known for an economy of words.
Wyatt Misenheimer was the DOS on the JOAD/team round field and National Judge Linda Misenheimer worked tirelessly at the tourney even though their son, Jake, is away in the Navy in the Nuclear Propulsion program.
National Judge/BOG Jane Johnson organized the Clout shoot with help from High Performance Director Tom Parrish. 
National Judge/BOG Neil Foster officiated the Olympic rounds along with Jane Johnson.
The NAA staff took care of sales, trophies and the media. (Terri, Maureen, Jody and Mary Beth)
Kathleen Frazier and Marihelen Rogers were the scoring leads that compiled scores day after day for close to 400 archers.
Brad Camp was the go to guy for just about everything from, USADA testing, to insuring that the Chinese Taipei flag flew, to making sure the time clock worked, to coordinating food vendors, to acting as the master of ceremonies at the awards banquet.
GT gave credibility and professionalism to US Open Finals.

There were a host of community volunteers including the mounted color guard, a rotary club member and a high school cross country coach of a couple of the archers.
I am hopeful that as next year more of the Colorado Springs community as well as volunteer from around the country will help. 

It’s a pleasure to be a part of such a great team.

The tournament including official practice cost $25 per day for seniors or master, $17 per day for a Cadet or younger JOAD category and just over $14 per day for a Junior.
How much does a day of Championship golf, tennis, bowling or skiing cost today?


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I don't understand all this talk about wind. THAT'S WHY WE SHOOT OUTDOORS! It's part of the game!
> 
> Whining about wind will do nothing more than ensure a negative, unproductive attitude when it starts to blow. Last I checked, it was the same wind for everyone on the line.
> 
> ...


 I am the same way Limbwalker. I don't even acknowledge that it is anything different than a calm sunny day. I love it when it rains or blows, snows etc. People start focusing on weather instead of shooting. They get negative.

The shot doesn't change, you do it the same. YOu may have to change equipment or point of aim, add yards, but you do it and shoot the same shot.

I have shot in hailstorms, pouring rain and low temps. I have shot some of my best scores in that kind of stuff. I feel I have an advantage when it gets nasty. 

If you let stuff like that bother you, you ain't focusing.


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## Danish archer (Nov 2, 2003)

*Just got back*

I have just returned home after a 22 hour trip from Colorado Springs to AArhus Denmark. (8 time zones -I have big time jet lag)
First thing to do - get the PC started and log on to Archerytalk.com

I want to say thanks to all of you who was there shooting. I had a great time.

All this talk about the weather makes me want to share a few pictures.

Stay sharp-->


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## Danish archer (Nov 2, 2003)

a few more.


We had it all. Rain, wind, sun, calm, thunder storms, at a time it was so cold it almost snowed ;-)


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> The tournament including official practice cost $25 per day for seniors or master, $17 per day for a Cadet or younger JOAD category and just over $14 per day for a Junior.
> How much does a day of Championship golf, tennis, bowling or skiing cost today?


I think that is a dang fine point to make - they should put that on the registration form online and printed, so that people will think of it in the proper context as you just expressed. 
EXCELLENT POINT!!!


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

TexARC said:


> I think that is a dang fine point to make - they should put that on the registration form online and printed, so that people will think of it in the proper context as you just expressed.
> EXCELLENT POINT!!!



Ron,
It's not the price of admission....It's the travel, time off work, room and board that gets us deep in the pockets.

It's the same old story- you have to plan to go, have the finanace to go, and then have the time to go.......besides having the training to feel like you deserve to go....


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

stodrette said:


> Ron,
> It's not the price of admission....It's the travel, time off work, room and board that gets us deep in the pockets.
> 
> It's the same old story- you have to plan to go, have the finanace to go, and then have the time to go.......besides having the training to feel like you deserve to go....


Right on! 
The tournament entry fee is a small if not a tiny percentage of the cost of competing.
Our US National Championships should be a world class event that all archers eagerly sacrifice to take part in.
Quality cost money.
Why should others take NAA archery seriously if we don’t strive to keep up with the expectations of today’s world?
Bigger prize money, computerized led display leader board, pass thru back up, vendor sales, seminars, the list goes on for prioritization.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

stodrette,

excellent point. I would very much like to see the entry fee for nationals cut in half. The entry fee used to be less and we had more participation. I think I recall about 500-600 at nationals in Michigan. This is something the NAA needs to strongly consider especially since the goal is to increase membership/participation. It's the same principle with taxes. Raising taxes doesn't necessarily increase revenue because it decreases spending(of course some think this is debatable). Anyway, the point is that for a decent family to get airfare, hotel, rental car, and then pay $150/person is absolutely ridiculous. Then they want to charge you another $15 for a tshirt, and another $20 for the banquet. It all adds up and it's a bit too expensive I think. I've spoken to many people from other sports here at the Olympic Training Center and I think the highest any of them pay for national entry fee is $50! And this includes some sports that don't really get a lot of money. I say if the NAA wants to keep the registration at $150 they should at least include a tshirt and banquet ticket for free.

Furthermore, although it would break tradition, I would like to see the nationals cut down to 4 days instead of 6. Taking that much time off from work for many people is out of the question especially when you have to pay so much to shoot. So it's really not costing you $25/day to shoot, it's costing you $25 + hotel room +rental car + what you would make at work=big bucks! Nationals was run great, don't get me wrong on that, everyone did a fantastic job, but we need to decrease cost and increase support.

Limbwalker, 
consider this, how many world records have been shot in 20-25mph winds? How did the archers like the wind in Athens? Yes, you have to look at it positvely, I know that, (I shot the highest 50m on the first fita in strong winds). But consider this, Vic shot 1339 2 weeks ago, and then barely breaks 1300 on the first fita and doesn't on the second fita. Butch didn't even break 1300, don't you think that's a bit ridiculous? The weather was no surprise for most cause CS traditionally has very unpredictable weather. Don't you think that should have been considered in finding a location? I mean there's a reason they stopped have the Olympic Festivals here. Ask anyone who shot those. From what I understand it's no fun shooting when golf ball size hail are hitting you in the head or having to throw your arrows at the target cause it's too windy to hold the bow up. I'm not saying we need no wind, I'm saying it gets to a point where it is a bit ridiculous and if you disagree with that then you obviously weren't here. 

Overall, I think if the nationals stay here that is fine. I like the city a lot and the field is good. It may even been easier/cheaper for the NAA to host it here, and they may be able to find USOC sponsors more willing to support it. I like stodrette's idea of October though or maybe even September. That would create a larger gap which would allow for more competitions. I think this will be one of the most important things we need to do is start having more national ranking competitions. Personally I'd like to see 8-10/year! What are your thoughts?


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

With nearly all of us overworked and underpaid its not going to be possible to make it possible for anyone to attend. registration fees are not terrible compared to the cost of the bales and the targets and such. However at vegas us compound shooters pay $200 and we have the chance to win over $10,000. In that case it is not a terrible price to pay. 

More USAT ranking tournaments would be nice (I think there is an extra one next year in MN) however it will make USAT way to much of an attendance award, more than it already is. I know weather in TX and arizona is too hot for summer and that is why it is held so early but wouldnt the weather be nice in sept and october as well? A competition in september/october would be very nice as by that time, archers would be totally prepared for a competition unlike in April. Not to mention a better and extra chance for a world record or great scores to be shot.

What is also needed to increase participation is more incentive to making USAT. there has to be away to get money to send these archers places to compete.


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

Alas, Guy, my point was that the NAA needs to use the power of the organization to get the archer more affordable room, board, travel and car expenses.

While some people may think it is a deal to pay $100/night for 4 people at a hotel, most of us don't know 3 people we really want to share a room with- bathroom time, sleep time, eat time is all different. Or you bring the family, and you aren't sharing....So in essence, we aren't getting a deal.

I would suggest a deal with a Super 8 hotel, or motel 6 where you get the basics, and see if they would discount if the NAA could do 2 things:
1. guarantee full occupancy
2. advertise for the hotel through the magazine and onsite.

Then go to expedia or travelocity and get airfare/car rental deals as well....

Then the $150 entry would mean even less....because we wouldn't be paying so much for all the other expenses.


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Brad,
How many times have you won more than $10,000 in a tournament? Most people who sign up and shoot in the money shoots win nothing.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

that does not matter. My point is you pay $200 to enter with a $10,000 purse for vegas but pay $150 for nationals and can not win anything. the reason for the high entry fees at most shoots are to make a decent payout for the archers. now you go to an NAA shoot, pay nearly the same price and win nothing but a cheap award. I think if the NAA were to start paying out there would be higher participation. I have seen that this year because mathews is paying contincency for USAT tournaments, there have been shooters that attended that I have never seen at these events before. And people wonder why many of the top NFAA shooters do not shoot NAA events. They are going to go where they at least have a CHANCE at making some money. I think it would be nice to see maybe a $1000 first place, $500 2nd place $250 3rd place and $50 4th place for winning the OR in a USAT event. I am sure the olympic bow shooters would love the chance at some decent money as really the only place to make money for them is NFAA events where many recurve archers do not compete, creating a smaller pot.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

Brad,

you are absolutely right. Money talks these days, especially with the rise of airline tichets, hotels, gas, etc. Now we have to ask, 1. who makes the decision for the cost of nationals, 2. who decides the pay out 3. how can we make it more profitable(not only for archers but for the NAA too).

I think the answer to number 3 is corporate sponsorships like Coke, Coors, whatever we can get. I think Skittles used to sponsor veladrome cycling(which we get more coverage than) so we should be able to find someone. We just have to give them something in return like advertising. Many top archers have also proposed the idea of having a company team shoot at USAT competitions. Companies like Hoyt, Easton, Mathews, Martin, PSE could have teams and maybe even put money up(say $100 per divisioin for the winning teams). I think that would be a great way to promote different companies, especially USAT sponsors. 

Just some ideas, maybe some others have better ideas.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> My point is you pay $200 to enter with a $10,000 purse for vegas but pay $150 for nationals and can not win anything.



I could come up with any number of less than pleasant things to say about the mindset revealed by that comment, but I will restrain myself... suffice it to say I think a number of US National Champions might disagree with you.


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> I could come up with any number of less than pleasant things to say about the mindset revealed by that comment, but I will restrain myself... suffice it to say I think a number of US National Champions might disagree with you.



Amen George, Amen.... :sad:


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

man, people always have to interpert things to be something negative and not quite sure how what i said was bad but oh well. besides the honor of being national champion and a medal, they can win some extra cash as well and I am sure any national champ would be happier with some extra cash in thier pocket. Do you think participation in vegas would not drop if prize money was eliminated, registration fees the same, and all the winners had was the honor of winning the tournament? I think the number of shooters would be at least cut in half. to me just winning alone would be enough and i know what a great honor and accomplishment it can be, nothing can comapre. however thats not true for all. there has to be more incentive. Either make USAT worth something to make people attend shoots and try to qualify, or add prize money. thats why you dont see many of the great NFAA shooters in FITA.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Brad
If NAA shootsare run anything like FITA shoots in Australia you would understand that the costs of runningthese events are massive. What's more to compare Vegas to a FITA Nationals is simply crazy and shortsighted. 
Using $AU here. 
The target faces for an outdoor Nationals works out at about $20 per archer over the week. For Vegas I would say that figure would be under $1 per archer. 
The cost of the judges for our events exceeds $10,000AU for our Nationals. That's $45 per archer gone. 
Sometimes a field needs to be hired, this can knock a massive amount out of the budget. 
Then there are many other costs such a toilets, ground setup, tents, portable stands etc etc, all stuff you don't need at Vegas. 
Then there is the medals. I can't remember the exact figure on that one, but it was also around $4000

Now we had 225 at our last Nats, so you could almost double these costs for you guys. 

Then there is also economy of numbers. Vegas is a massive shoot with many many archers. Costs start to drop a little with that on a per head basis. 

And finally you can win Vegas, get the money and your face in a magazine advert, but end of the day, you are still not National Outdoor FITA champion, the greatest prize of all.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Limbwalker,
> 
> consider this, how many world records have been shot in 20-25mph winds? How did the archers like the wind in Athens? Yes, you have to look at it positvely, I know that, (I shot the highest 50m on the first fita in strong winds). But consider this, Vic shot 1339 2 weeks ago, and then barely breaks 1300 on the first fita and doesn't on the second fita. Butch didn't even break 1300, don't you think that's a bit ridiculous?


No, I don't. I fail to see your point. I thought the event was to determine the National champion, not who could shoot 1300. Compared to the other scores shot, Butch and Vic's scores looked pretty good. Who cares if they broke 1300? Is that important? I would be willing to bet neither of them care, so long as they finish ahead of everyone else. And personally, I liked the wind in Athens. It was the best chance I had to beat Taiwan's best archer. I went into that match thinking I had a pretty good chance. On a calm day, I had no chance.



> I'm not saying we need no wind, I'm saying it gets to a point where it is a bit ridiculous and if you disagree with that then you obviously weren't here.


Guy, I have some pretty good reasons for not being there. I doubt you intended that to mean the way it sounded.

John.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Fita is the football of archery 4 quarters played in anything but “dangerous” weather.. Don’t care were it’s at or what the weather is as long as everybody has to shoot in the same conditions.

Yep it sucks but I can personally attest to it sucking just as much during a game as well

The winners are the ones who pull it together and shoot there game …. The only score required is the one the takes the field for the day … The winners are those the show and finish


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## UltraShooter (Jan 30, 2003)

*Congratulations!!*

I'd like to extend my congratulations to Ron Hardesty for some fine shooting out in Colorado...keep up the good work buddy!!


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> Who cares if they broke 1300? Is that important?


It is, only in the context of an NAA/USOC rolling ranking system which rewards archers for their raw scores, instead of how they performed relative to others at the event. The way the system is set up, you are better off going to events with good weather and avoiding those with a history of poor weather (score-wise) such as Arizona and Texas.

That is a problem which needs fixing, IMHO.



> I would be willing to bet neither of them care, so long as they finish ahead of everyone else.


Don't bet anything you don't want to lose...


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

oldreliable67 said:


> Here is a quick graph of recent Nats attendance. Maybe a bit ominous? Or explainable?



I think it's easily explainable. Due to population distribution. Oddly enough, it's thicker in the east. Is it not?


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

Exactly George,

winning isn't the important thing! I would rather beat everyone when they are shooting their best than when the weather conditions are too just my advantage. 

I believe the NAA is or is going to start paying bonuses for world records and fitas over 1350. No money's not the important thing, but the scores are. I believe it's important to know you are at a level that can compete internationally and I believe the fita is still a true measure of an archer's skill. 

John, 
don't take that negatively. I meant that it's easy to say things about the conditions, but unless you were actually shooting in it, you don't know how "fun" it was. I'm sure very few people "enjoyed" shooting in it. Of course, we made the best out of it


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

I think the graph clearly shows a drop off in attendance due to the increase in the entry fee. I believe it was raised in 2004 or 2003. There are not necessarily more archers in the east. California and Texas have a large concentration of archers as well. There is also a drop in attendance the year after the Olympics.

It may be interesting to find out what divisions there was a drop off in then. Then you could analyze the graph better. You would probably need to do a graph of men and women, then compound/recurve, and youth/senior. Also traditional/crossbow/fita.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Have you ever noted that at the big korean shoots the scores are really high? No not for the Koreans-but for all the visitors as well? As I recall Barnes and Jackson Fear both shot very high scores in Korea. At US nationals, hmmmm.

I didn't go to CS for several reasons, none of which are very important other than a father going through some debilitating chemo and radiation-that thankfully appears to have worked. I am not going to shoot a 1300 this year-not next year, maybe never-depends how the surgery works to deal with the problems that have impacted both my physical form and mental confidence the last year. People like me-the ones whose dues and entry fees and volunteer hours and hours and hours keep the NAA going go to nationals for several reasons-winning the tournament is NOT ONE. I remember when the NAA Sprung the 6-7-8-9-10 face on us at Oxford with no Advance notice. The pathetic arguments and responses to the protests I and others filed was so bad I was tempted to shut the tournament down by a TRO a federal judge would have given me for violating both contract and the federal law. 

We go to nationals hoping to shoot a PB or at least improve on the score the year before. PUtting the tournament in an area where the winds are high and the scores will be low is contrary to the interests of most of the people . When the nationals were used to pick international teams, perhaps that could be justified. I can't complain about say a world field trial being held at 9000 feet (when that was legal) etc but now that RR determines trips 
why not create a nationals that caters to the rank and file


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well Geoge I did not know that...Just an amature at this Fita stuff

Thanks for setting the record stright and the continued sourse of Info.. sure does help a wannabe out :embarasse


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Scores, Rolling Ranking and Round Robins*

Scores:
The Arizona Cup often takes place less than a month after the Indoor Nationals.
Being the first FITA of the season for many is a factor when it comes to the scores, especially the scores of those from snowy winter regions.
That’s why we offer a Star FITA the weekend before to give the archers chance to shoot a tourney before the AZ Cup.
The last two years we have also offered ORs which has been well received by the international archers and teams.
I reinforce that today’s AZ Cup is shot on an enlarged field and we can shoot all in the morning when the winds are typically lighter than the afternoon.

Rolling Ranking
The best Rolling ranking methodology is a tough to determine.
If you shoot under ideal conditions a while ago, you can have high rolling ranking even though you many not be actively shooting any more.
On the other hand if you limit the ranking to only recent tournaments you run the risk of highly ranking a one shoot wonder.
Is it practical to utilize a weighted ranking system where the value is based on the number and level of the competitors like the world ranking system?

Round Robins:
I wish the rest of the world would have a chance to shoot Round Robin matches, as we do at our US World Team trials, so they can see how great they are.
Every time we run them in AZ the archers and spectators love them.
They especially like the idea that everyone gets to play against the top dog with a chance to beat them.
Americans love an underdog.
It’s similar to a chess master playing multiple matches at one time. 
Odds are the master will win most of the matches.
But the match he looses is the one the victor and spectators will remember fondly for years to come.

I am not sure if this applies in the least but the discussion got me thinking...


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Huggybear
Apparently you missed my earlier post. The NAA membership is currently distributed as follows: Eastern Region - 1900, Northern and Southern regions - 1100 and Western Region - 1600. I do agree with you, however, that attendance at our outdoor tournament started to drop when the entry fees increased.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Typo alert...

Early on in this thread I (attempted) to post some attendance figures for the USAT selection tournaments. Corrected is in bold...

Texas Shootout: 2004, 174 versus 2005, 122
*AZ Cup: 2004, 260 versus 2005, 171*
Gold Cup: 2004, 171 versus 2005, 133

Thanks to Serious Fun for the catch!


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

It might be interesting to know what the overall membership rolls did during the same period. Did the NAA's membership change or remain the same?

And I have also to mention that for the Texas Shootout this year (2005), I don't recall winds being much of a factor until the medal matches on the last day.....fwiw...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It is, only in the context of an NAA/USOC rolling ranking system which rewards archers for their raw scores, instead of how they performed relative to others at the event.


George, come now. I know you prefer to think of me as a neophyte, and maybe by your standards I am, but you can't seriously think I don't know how the rolling ranking works... (IIRC, that system had me ranked 4th in the US upon completion of my 4th eligible ranking event...). You know that 1300's have nothing to do with that ranking. Only match scores are considered. 



> That is a problem which needs fixing, IMHO.


I agree completely.

Another problem with that system is that archers who shoot well early, but lose their match are at an advantage over those who continue to win matches, but have to shoot in often increasing winds. It's not uncommon to see 160's lose early, but 102-103's win later.

Not sure what you mean't by your "betting" comment. Guess I just figured that after living and shooting with those two for a month, I have an idea of what matters more to them. But you probably know them better than I do, and I shouldn't speak for either of them anyway.

Guy,

I know you didn't mean that the way it sounded, but I can sympathize. Only one time in over 30 years of flinging arrows can I remember not wanting to shoot anymore. That was last year's Southern Illinois Cup. It poured down rain all day and never broke 51 degrees. I was miserable. As soon as I realized I was up by 60 points after 90 and 70 meters, I just started slinging all 6 arrows in under one minute, then ran back under the tent. Sure, I was miserable, but you can bet I wasn't going to lose that 60 point lead either. 

The rolling ranking issue I can understand, but I still don't care who shoots over 1300, so long as they win.

John.

John.


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

huggybear said:


> Furthermore, although it would break tradition, I would like to see the nationals cut down to 4 days instead of 6. Taking that much time off from work for many people is out of the question especially when you have to pay so much to shoot.


I'm so glad you said that.  I got chastised before for making that comment. It's nice to see one of the nation's top archers say this as well.

How is a person supposed to attend even 3 major events while holding a full-time job? The Gold Cup is awesome, know why? At most it requires 1 day off work. Nationals will cost you a whole week. Go figure. If the NAA did a study to see why people don't attend more events, it would be interesting to see how many people say it requires too much time off of work.

Not all archers lives can revolve around archery entirely. If the NAA would work a little at accomodating more of the "average" archers  they might see the attendance increase. There is absolutely no reason why it requires a full week to determine a national champion, none.

I would have loved to have taken my daughter to Nationals. She finished 2nd in the nation at JOAD indoors. The shoot at Harrisonburg required zero days off work.

Rule number one for maximizing attendance for ANY event is utilizing the weekend as 2 of the days. So, as Guy suggested, a 4 day event would only require a person to take possibly 2-3 days off work (depending on travel time). Meanwhile, nationals uses zero weekend days except the check-in on Sunday.

Try making the Gold Cup on Thursday and Friday and see what happens to the attendance. 

You want to increase attendance and therefore income for the NAA? Try accomodating more of the average people out there.


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## Hollywood (Oct 24, 2002)

Palmer an Huggybear - 

I think there are a number of people who agree that Nationals should be cut down to (at a maximum) 4 days. The trick is to convince the board of governors of this. Contact your representatives and let them know what you think. The next meeting is in October - put this in front of the board then and see what happens. I think there are probably hundreds who agree with this...let's hear from them. 

-peace,
Hollywood


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

good post Palmer. Years ago I used to shoot the international skeet circuit. For most of that time here is how you made a World or Olympic team

1) shoot a qualifying score at a regional or zone shoot

2) attend the four day US National chamionships which -depending on the year-were the Olympic or Pan Am or World trials

3) Finish in the top 2 or 3

4) go to the worlds or olympics

In 1987 or so, it was changed

you had to have a "minimum qualifying score" in addition to winning a place. That could only be obtained in select international competitions-for the Olympic participation-apparently, in 1984 a guy from The Bahamas missed his first 50 targets in trap. Still, it was a four days trials and for all other shoots, you didn't need an MOS but to get funded you had to shoot a "cut score" but that was at any sanctioned shoot. In 1988 and 1992 the USNC/Olympic Trials had 120 people-the maximum the fields could hold

After the 1992 games, the powers that be =concerned about a lack of medals in the 92 games-decided to make the trials a three part affair. You had to shoot at the USNC as well as fall and spring selection matches-which were held at the home fields of 1) The army shooting team and 2) the USOTC in CS. in other words, a civilian like me, who could take a week off to attend the trials and if we made the team (as civilians Brad Simmons did in 76 and Mike Thompson did in 84) use another week for the games. Now you had to basically take three weeks off and two/three shoots involved going to the home turf of either the army shooting team or the resident athletes

there was a conscious decision by US SHooting (they became the NGB after the NRA got the boot for violation of athletes' rights-especially civilian athletes) to weed out civilian shooters and make things easier for the full time professional army shooters and OTC residents who don't have to worry about 3 weeks of vacation merely to make a team.

I think at a recent US nationals there were 43 people in attendance and the amount of grass roots international clay target has gone way down

The argument is that we want consistent athletes making our team in shooting yet the olympics is basically a 2-3 day meet and it seems the best way to pick a team is to use the same methods as used to pick the gold medalist within reason. However, I remember in track-a guy named Steve williams I believe-best 100M in the world for 4 years =hurt at both the 72 and 76 trials-he didn't make the teams but he didn't lose much the summer of each games and would have probably won at least the 76 games but for a pulled hamstring the one day of the trials

In 1992


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Hollywood is absolutely right: tell your BOG reps how you feel about the Nats schedule (4 days? a full week? over a weekend? how about over Labor Day weekend?). And while you're at it, tell them how you feel about the location as well. If you liked CS and would like to see Nats stay there permanently, tell'em that. If you want to see Nats back in the middle of country somewhere, tell'em that. If you're indifferent as to location and will be there wherever it is held, let 'em know that, too.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Hey, why don't we just make it a 2-day event, FITA on Sat and OR's on Sun. Oh wait, we already have a TX Spring FITA, Gold Cup, and AZ Cup that do essentially that! Are you folks suggesting we decide our *National* champion based on the same 144 arrows as these other tournaments? I thought the idea of a National Champion meant just a little bit more than that?! I mean, come on.....4 days? Which days? And how does that save someone who has to spend 1.5 to 2 days traveling to the venue that much more time than a full 5 weekdays? How about a Thur-Sun event.....need to take off Tues & Wed for travel to the tournament, then assuming you can get out at a reasonable time on Sun, possibly Sun evening and all day Mon for travel home. What did I save? Seems I still come up with a full 5 days needed for vacation. Only thing I save is a weekend I would normally be traveling to do something else (like the honey-do list, and trust me, I'd prefer traveling home from a tournament instead, lol ). Only way I could save a little time is if the tournament were back in the Midwest somewhere.....and then someone else would have the same issues as me who lived further west.

Besides, tournament already is 4 days - nothing written that I know of requiring one to shoot the US Open at the end of the week.

I don't know what the optimal solution is. All I know is that it is a Nationals - should mean a little more than the other USAT qualifier tournaments, shouldn't it? All I know is that 4 days doesn't do much to save vacation time over a 5 day event.

And please consider when suggesting dates like Labor Day weekend and later in Sept/Oct that some of the constituency has families and in particular school-age (both K-12 and college-age) children. School and extracurricular school activities, including many fall sports start in Aug already. I'm afraid moving the tournament to later in the year will only preclude even more from attending than is already the case.

FYI, I think the Springs is a beautiful place to hold the Nationals. Scenery, plenty of accomodations, places to eat, things to do, etc. That said, I do think the Nationals should be rotated periodically to make the tournament more easily accessible to other parts of the country/membership as well. Not necessarily an annual rotation like the NFAA, but possibly every two or three years move it back and forth across the Mississippi at least.

Anyway, rant off.......for now, !

>>------->


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

well, it's only that the rest of the world stop shooting the double fita like before 1988! I think we are the only ones in the world that still do it, and I don't see that it makes us any better internationally. 

Besides, the other USAT events determine the winner based on the OR. I think many people think the fita at nationals should determine the winner which I agree with totally. But the fact of the matter is that the double fita isn't shot at any international event except the Mexican Grand Prix(not sure if this is still the case). It would certainly cut down the cost for the NAA by cutting cost of target faces and target butt replacement, not to mention cost of accomodating judges etc. In fact, it may actually help the NAA get it's budget back on track.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Don't worry, Australia still does it, in fact we are so backwards that:
We still shoot clout at our Nationals
Our Juniors MUST shoot clout for their teams
Our Junior Nationals will drop Matchplay for Clout if the schedule can't fit both in. 
Our old people in the sport insist we must shoot clout 'because it's fun' and fail to understand that no one else thinks so. 
At our Nationals this year 50 of them shot Clout and everyone got a medal.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

I dunno, I just like the idea of Nationals being a double FITA rather than one FITA. No real reason for it, just like that it's two rather than one FITA like every other tournament.

Is it impossible to shoot one line, 3 archers per target? You can pretty easily shoot a full FITA in one day like this. Is it impossible to find a field big enough to shoot one line for Nationals?


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Canada is a double FITA as well, follwed by an OR, followed by 2 days of Field...works out to 8 straights days of shooting(counts official practice)...it is a long week.


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## JoeM (Mar 31, 2003)

*Nationals*

I personally like the Nationals the way are. I believe the double FITA is great way to choose the national champion.

Now Canada has a tough event, One day I would like shoot this event a guest.

JM


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

I agree with Joe. I understand the debate about the majority of members perhaps not having time to spend a week at Nationals... but we all make choices. Taken to the logical conclusion, a trend in this direction might eventually arrive at mail matches deciding all titles 

I also like the way Canada does their nationals. 

Canadians are tough, though, comes from having four-week summers, Labatt Blue, and sparrow-size mosquitoes...  

I shot lots of "Canadian FITA's" which are two-day double FITA rounds, back when I was a regular at Caledon near Toronto. (Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth and cries of anguish if a weekend double FITA were proposed to compress the time frame of US Nationals ?)


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## farms100 (Jan 16, 2003)

I have helped run many Not for profit conventions. A large Part of selecting a hotel or convetnion site. Is what kind of room rates you can arrange with the hotel. I have no idea if the NAA negoitioates with the local hotels or not But if you had one or two "official" hotels with good room rates. That will help a lot with attendance. Ther more room nights you give a hotel the happier they will be. Also if you give a hotel enough room night you wil often get free funtion space, usefull for judges meetings banquets room etc.

One other thing that helped us negotioate is having numbers to go back and say we lst year we had X number of room nights. We should expect same if not more this year...

In these conventions nobody had there company paying there way. SO a room rate jump of 10-15 dollars a night noticably impacted our attendance rates. that was over a 2 day convention.

For a single person going the 150$ per archer is small compared to the cost of hotel, airfare, rental car, and going out to eat every meal.

for format i kind of like what the current one is too.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth and cries of anguish if a weekend double FITA were proposed to compress the time frame of US Nationals ?


Wimps!
Australia's Nationals this year consisted of
Day 1: Full FITA
Day 2: Full FITA
Day 3: Clout/3D
Day 4: National Field (28 target 4 arrows per target on FITA Field faces)
Day 5: FITA Field
Day 6: Team Matchplay
Day 7: Ind. Matchplay


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## marzo2 (Sep 20, 2004)

Well George, next summer you could come and test yoursefl!

Give a PM and I'll send you detail. You could shoot AND eat from Bens deli


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> I agree with Joe. I understand the debate about the majority of members perhaps not having time to spend a week at Nationals... but we all make choices. Taken to the logical conclusion, a trend in this direction might eventually arrive at mail matches deciding all titles


No disrespect intended George, but you say you understand the debate, but can you really identify with those that can't attend due to lack of vacation time? I don't know, I'm asking, and not trying to be smart about it. I guess I'm assuming Hoyt wants you at these shoots and not requiring you to use vacation. I understand it's about choices, but if changes could be made to accomodate more people, making the decision easier, and still offer a feasible format, why wouldn't the NAA do that? Why wouldn't everyone be for that? I'm hearing several people on here so far that think the format could use some revision, so I know I'm not the only one.

Along the same logic that others say justifies the current format, shouldn't the olympics be more than (2) 72 arrow qualifiers and also use a minimum of double elimination olympic rounds rather than use the same format as we use for less prestigious tournaments? It's just flawed logic in my opinion.

How many people here attend outdoor Nationals, carry a full-time job, and agree that it should stay the same format?


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## farms100 (Jan 16, 2003)

palmer said:


> How many people here attend outdoor Nationals, carry a full-time job, and agree that it should stay the same format?


I would have to say most of the adult atendee have full time jobs 

But george is right about making choices to go or not. I chose to go on a romantic vaction with my wife (no kids) instead of shooting nationals. Would i like to have done both? Of course I would have.


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

farms, why then wouldn't you favor changes that would enable you and others to do both?

I was always taught that you can expect the same results from the same efforts. So if the NAA wants to increase attendance and revenue, they have to change their efforts. The turnout at Nationals looks like it's continuing a downhill trend and evidently points to some issues that need some attention.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't know if it should be changed. If a person is going to take time and effort to attend it would be nice spend some time shooting and enjoying the general area.

However;

That is also the same problem that ended up prohibiting me from going this year ( and I was planning on it) At about $100.00 a day , entry fee's , gas money and so on it was easy a $1,000.00 trip. Really can not justify spending that much to shoot anyplace right now. $800.00 to Vegas .. $600.00 at Nationals ( indoor) $1,000.00 at NAA nationals. I tell you shooting an few national tournaments a year and taking 2-3 weeks off to do it while spending around $3,000.00 ?? Well plain and simple that's tuff for a lot of people and in my opinion plain and simple the # 1 reason for lack of and/or declining participation at any shoot.

But I don't think shaving a few days off the NAA nationals saving a few days of vacation and a couple of hundred dollars in the big scheme of things will help very much. Sure it might make it easier for a few here and there but not much in the big scheme of things ..

Saying that I would like to see it over the weekend however . It would save a day or two of vacation. Not much I know but even more important is that there are two less days that I could possibly run into fewer conflicts. Sometimes A week long shoot for me can be shot because I can not get out of 1 days worth of activities. For example the week of this nationals I could not get out of some obligations on a Thursday. If it was a Fri- Mon shoot this day would not have posed a problem for me With 2 out of 4 days on a weekend that is a 50 % less chance of a problem because of work and/or family conflicts


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

The double Fita and OR format seems to serve both the shooting-as-recreation and the team-contender groups of archers rather well, IMO. The format has something for everybody.

In fact, Outdoor Nationals has always seemed to have a bit of a schizoid personality. On the one hand, Nats is viewed by many participants largely as the family vacation and shooting is just the excuse to get away from home and travel a bit. Shooting is important, but mainly it provides the excuse to get out and renew old acquaintances, engage in some general schmoozing and enjoy a change of scenery. A bit of a 'county fair' or 'annual convention' approach. For many of these folks, attendance is effectively blocked by a tournament venue with a too-high transportation price tag from wherever they might reside. 

For others, Nats is much more of a serious test of shooting ability. Sure, its always nice to see old friends again, but for the serious competitor, well, we just saw most of those same folks at the Texas Shootout, the AZ Cup and the Gold Cup. For these folks, competition is much more meaningful and serious. For a (relative) few, it can affect their rolling ranking, which in some cases means that altering their lifestyle for the coming competition period is a real possibility. For these folks, their commitment will most likely take them to wherever the venue dictates (within reason). 

For the NAA, holding the Nats in CS must have been quite a relief, cutting way down on staff travel expenses and easing (but certainly not wholly eliminating) logistical burdens. Now that it is in the books, the NAA will no doubt take a long look at revenue versus expenses: did the lesser expenses of a CS-based Nats compensate for the lesser revenue from lower attendance? What conclusions do you think the NAA will come away with?


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## Valkyrie (Dec 3, 2002)

Wow!! Australia here I come - would love to shoot that format here - sure save on traveling costs by having more shoots at the same time.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

JoeM...our Nationals are in Sherbrook Quebec next year...so if you want to come play, it isnt that bad of a drive for you. 

If I was to pick my ideal format for Nationals, we would dump the field(no one here takes it seriously), shoot a Full FITA each day, followed by an OR, and we could shoot it on a long weekend. Same number of arrows, less time sitting in the hotel room...
But, that being said, for many archery is their form of recreation...so for them...a week at Nationals is their Holiday...it is their week away doing what they like to do for recreation....and I guess they have some claim ot that too.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*National Champ Two FITAs, USAT ranking One FITA*

Why not keep the National Target Championship a double FITA and revise the Senior USAT qualifying portion to be the result of only one of the FITAs.

The US Open seeding and the Senior USAT Tournament ranking would be based on highest single FITA score of the two FITAs.
A USAT contender would be welcome to shoot just the second FITA for USAT Ranking and OR seeding.
I assume Excel can sort the highest of two FITAs and then sort the OR seeding.

The tournament schedule could be shifted one day later with the US Open is held on Saturday so that a single FITA archer could:
Fly in on Wednesday morning and practice on the practice range,
Shoot the FITA on Thursday and Friday,
Shoot the US Open on Saturday,
Fly out on Sunday.
As a result only three of the five, Monday-Friday, work weekdays would be missed (40% less missed work)
A Saturday US Open may bring more spectators (wishful thinking)

The National Target Championship entry fee is equivalent to $25 per day so a single FITA registrant would only pay $100 for the tourney and only be eligible for the US Open and USAT FITA ranking.

How many would take advantage of the one FITA/OR seeding tournament opprotunity?
It would be interesting to see.
Such a plan would make reassigning target assignments based on score for the second FITA only for the National Championship contenders.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> I assume Excel can sort the highest of two FITAs and then sort the OR seeding.


Bob, to my recollection, there has been a problem of some sort with the conduct of every US Open for _every single year of the event_.

While I can see the appeal of your idea, any additional complication seems unwise, given the event track record of zero for nine... but yeah, that might just work.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The voice of experience and reason,

My only mission in my limited archery life is to serve the archers and help grow archery.
Just tell me the problem, goal, mission or what to do and I will endeavor to find a solution, achieve success and get the job done.

The proposal in meant to encourage more of the archery community to take part in FITA tournament archery.
I suspect that very few if any would take advantage of the opportunity if the proposal was enacted.
I hope it might help mitigate the feeling of frustration that some have that the NAA does not respond to its membership requests without adversely affecting the quality of the National Championship.

We allow AR/Senior division combined competition. 
It’s good for encouraging archery but easy to make a mistake as TexARC can attest. 

Is the hassle and risk of potential excel problems be worth the participation of just one more archer?


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> Is the hassle and risk of potential excel problems be worth the participation of just one more archer?


In a word, yes, of course it is.

Sorry if I seemed negative toward your idea. I don't know the specific cause of all the problems over the years, but I can tell you that these things happen at every level of OR I have seen/participated in, from state to world level. 

Madrid comes readily to mind as a good example of how bad things can be even with a simple system and only two divisions.

When people complain about the lack of repechage or other more complex systems for OR matches, I can only imagine the problems that would come from increased complexity.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Bob,

Actually, I think the Nats results are compiled using Access. At least, the print outs certainly look like they are coming from Access, not Excel. And IIRC, MariHelen Rogers was putting the scores into Access the last time that I had occasion to observe the process. Certainly adding the provision for archers to shoot only one of the Fitas would further complicate the scoring/recordkeeping process, but certainly not to the point where it can't be done. 

This is an interesting thread; a lot of good discussion about the Outdoor Nats and ideas about the format and location. Outdoor Nats is the premier event hosted by the NAA; it is our showcase event. Consequently, this would seem to be a pretty important topic for the membership. So what I'm wondering about is this: who actually makes the decisions concerning the location of Outdoor Nationals? Is it proposed by NAA staff and approved by the BOG, or is it strictly an NAA executive decision? 

More specifically, are there goals and/or criteria for considering venues, and if so, what are they? If not, why not? If they exist, does the BOG participate in the setting of these goals/criteria? If they exist, are the goals/criteria communicated to the membership? Is there an 'after action' report for gleaning lessons learned?

While these questions are couched in terms of venue, they could just as easily be asked about tournament format.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Access vs Excel*

We use the OR seeding excel "formulas" worksheet provided to the AZ Cup by Mari-Helen in 2003 when FITA revised the OR Flow charts.
One of our volunteers took an access class and discovered how great it could be for combining registration, payment and results all in one program.

Later we realized that we would be in world of hurt if the one volunteer that had access knowledge became unavailable or if her computer broke.
We like excel because many more computers have excel than access and many more peolple know how to use excel.

I guess we should have gone up to the scoring office to see what tools they were using.
I suspect that most if not all the mistakes in OR seeding could be caught if there were a fresh set of eyes comparing score card and data entry results print out.
The problem is finding willing volunteers with a good head on there shoulders that you can depend on.


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## NHSarcher (Oct 15, 2004)

*Format Idea*

There a lot of ideas getting thrown around on this thread and I'm in no way an expert, but I thought that i might offer my 2 cents. This was the first nationals I attended and I've got to tell everyone, it was a lot of fun. There are a few things that I would change, but overall it was a great time, even with the weather the way it was.

This may have been suggested already but what if all of the recurve shooters shoot the first fita on Sun, the second Fita on Mon and then the OR on Tues. compound shooters can do the same thing on Wed.,Thurs, Fri.
Everyone might have to squeeze into one line, but at the least it'll reduce travel days or time off from work. I wouldn't change the location though. If it is changed, I'd go for someplace on the west coast since most of the qualifiers can be considered on the east coast. Just a thought.


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

NHSarcher 
If I lived in Washington I would also pick the west coast as an ideal location for the outdoor nationals. Since I live in Pennsylvania, I would select a more eastern location. All of our recommendations are based on where we live.

If you look at travel costs you will find that the most expensive place for most people is Colorado Springs and the least expensive is somewhere in Ohio. The difference in flying plus car rental vs. driving is about $450.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Bob,

Access and Excel really work super well together. You can do everything you need to do for a tournament, even one as large as Outdoor Nats, in Excel alone or Access alone, but it really smooths it out and makes it hum when you put them together.

And speaking of scoring software, it seems to me that the NAA should provide a standardized scoring software package for use at the USAT selection tournaments. Reasons: (1) the NAA is now dictating the now-standardized format of those tournaments, and (2) a standardized package should reduce scoring errors -- a focused initial development followed by user feedback to a single-sourced package should quickly find bugs and identify necesssary improvements, (3) it will take the tournament organizers out of the business of software development, a business in which they most likely are not professionals, (4) when the format changes, as experience suggests it eventually will, the change can be incorporated into one package, instead of sending the tournament organizers scrambling for their volunteer help, and (5) even when a tournaments volunteer help is very capable and perhaps even professional and doing this as a side project, it still is volunteer assistance and is not likely to get the same time and attention to detail as a paid professional project would receive. 

In other words, if the USAT selection tournaments are now all going to be the same format, lets use a standardized, tested, debugged software package for all of them. There is no need to reinvent the wheel for all these things. Scoring software is not rocket science, but even so, it is easy for non-professionals to produce easily broken Excel spreadsheets or Access databases. (I know, I've done it several times!) A single-sourced, professionally produced scoring software package should help eliminate many of those errors that occured in the last nine events that GT refers to -- perhaps not all, but by far the majority.


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## NHSarcher (Oct 15, 2004)

*I agree*

Bill,

I totally agree with you. Everyone's input is going to based on where they live. It would be great to be able to drive to nationals and save on airfare and car rental, but as you pointed out, I live in WA....either way it's going to cost $800-$1500 to keep attending every year under the format that they have now. 

I think that someone already suggested it but what if they rotate it every year like the NFAA nationals? Would it make that much of a difference? No need to reinvent the wheel here, can someone find out from NFAA if it's successful?


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## FITAchick (Feb 8, 2004)

I've read everyone's comments -- both good and bad -- about the NAA Nationals and I must comment.

As a resident of the "midwest", I find it extremely unfair to hold both the JOAD and NAA Outdoor Nationals on the east coast. Quite frankly -- it is cost prohibitive to MOST people. CS in particular was an inspiring and breath taking venue to compete in. I was impressed with the way the tournament ran. Sure, the weather conditions were extreme from one day to another but isn't that why we love the sport -- because it is challenging and you have to be "prepared" for everything? I believe that holding the Outdoor Nationals in CS as a permanent venue is FAIR. Why? Because west coasters don't have to travel completely across the nation just to compete. Conversely, east coasters have to travel about equal distance as the west coasters. If the nationals were held on the west coast -- the east coasters would be equally put out. Holding the Outdoor Nationals permanently in CS would make travel fair to all across the board. Keeping the now central and beautiful location is key to building attendance in the coming years. 

There are plenty of "off tournament" sights to enjoy after the competition is over in CS. Personally, I felt that I was forced to spend much more money in Reading last year than I did in CS this year. I am a single parent who works full time, attends college full time and has responsibility for a fine son who will be a senior in high school this year. We are both archers and LOVE the sport. Archery is as much a part of my life as training, studying and maintaining a household. I live on one income which is less than "average", but I make sure I have enough funds left over for my son to be as serious and competitive as he pleases. We both shot the Nationals this year and it was one of the best experiences of our lives. I'd shoot the Nationals no matter what the cost... because I'd find a way to make it "do-able" financially. 

Keeping the Nationals a double FITA and then the OR is the best forum for this competition. My philosophy and observation is that after one full FITA, the cream usually rises to the top. Unless one has equipment failure or an injury -- only a select few will come out near or on the top after that second full FITA. Moreover, tradition dictates that the Nationals is scheduled just the way it is. Keeping the tradition should be what is important to the members of the NAA. Why mess with something that has worked well for so many years? We want to see the best archers come out on top don't we? If that is truly the case, then the tournament forum should be kept as it is to allow those archers who train hard to continue to shoot for personal best scores each and every time out.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

FITAchick,
Great post.. My feelings exactly.

The only other option that has not been discussed is to have the Outdoor nationals in multiple locations as the indoor nationals.

I am not in favor of the idea but if that is what it takes to get the attendance up, so be it.

Stan :beer:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> FITAchick,
> Great post.. My feelings exactly.
> 
> The only other option that has not been discussed is to have the Outdoor nationals in multiple locations as the indoor nationals.
> ...


you really can't compare a score shot in 25 miles an hour wind versus one shot in perfectly still air.

indoors, its far easier to have multiple locations.

right now, the northern region HAD ZERO USAT shoots for adults. hardly fair
my suggestion-a USAT shoot in each region and have the nationals rotate like JOAD (btw fitachick the east was supposed to get joad nationals but not a single club in the east bid on it)

some will say its easier to have a permanent location but that is unfair to say those of us who don't live at 5000 feet etc.

I say rotate nationals


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

I do not understand the "live at 5000' " comment!!!

Stan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Jim,
> 
> I do not understand the "live at 5000' " comment!!!
> 
> Stan



I won the inaugural Jr Olympic skeet championship at CS 26 or so years ago. I was a varsity college athlete and running a 4.25 mile at the time. (for UIT its 20 and under) and the favorite was a heavyset boy from texas -the lowest part of texas. I don't know if I would have beat him in my home field or on his but the thin air was rough on him even after training out there for several weeks


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim,
I understand there may be a few people that suffer from altitude sickness but if a person is in reasonable physical condition this should not be a factor for deciding the location.

Stan :beer:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Jim,
> I understand there may be a few people that suffer from altitude sickness but if a person is in reasonable physical condition this should not be a factor for deciding the location.
> 
> Stan :beer:



well I will disagree with you. when we had a big championship at CS-the army sent their team from Fort Benning out two weeks in advance to get acclimated. Several years ago, North AMerica had to pick people to play in the Olympic table tennis championships. The US team had trained at the OTC for a month. The better canadian team suffered some upsets. Even the american coach admitted that the altitude affected both the endurance of the canadians and the "break" on the loops -our guys had worked on more topspin because in the thin air,normal drives didn't curve enough to hit the table

ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, some one used to 5K feet is going to have an advantage over someone who lives in say Cincinnati, or Louisville

In 2002 one of my club members lost USAT on X count. with things being that close, every little advantage helps. 

it needs to move around


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim,

I agree that altitude may be a factor for people in poor physical condition. I believe, however, sports such as table tennis are far more aerobic activities than target archery. I don't recall anyone out of breath at the tournament. 

(However, a mutual friend of ours from Tennessee DID run out of breath... in the middle of eating some French Fries... on the summit of Pikes Peak... 14100 feet... but I digress...) 

Victor Wunderle has been training all summer at sea level in Florida. He obviously had no trouble with the altitude. 

Neither did Butch Johnson, living at 600 feet.

Dave Cousins, exhausted from a six-week travel schedule (Madrid, Germany, Yankton) got off to a slow start, but the Maine native just got stronger as the week progressed. No problems from altitude. 

Jeff Button is in the best shape I have ever seen him in, down 50# or more in body mass, and he shot great. I bet that getting in shape helped him.

Braden Gellenthein had an outstanding performance. No problem from altitude. 

Most of the men gained about 1/8" to 3/16" on the 90M sight setting in the Springs. About the same difference between going from the OTC in San Diego to SLC. So, unlike table tennis, no real equipment issues due to altitude in my opinion.

Dealing with location changes is a neccessary burden on many athletes in most sports, whether it's being rudely thrust into the 95 degree heat and 95% humidity of an Ohio summer for those of us from places that average 4% humidity, or flying 12 time zones to a foreign land to compete a day after arrival. 

Most good shooters... or even middling ones with good attitudes... just suck it up and deal with it.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I think archery is far harder physically than skeet-I am only a decent archer while being the same as a 1340 (recurve) level skeet shooter and the army guys thought it was enough of a factor where one bird could make a difference to train out there.

as I noted all else being equal-that was the most important point

how many people in Butch or Vic's league live at 5K feet these days? 
How about Cousins?


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Jim C, as far as I know the Northern Region will have a USAT qualifier next summer - Voyageur Cup in MN.

And regarding the altitude, 'comon, its not that bad. Not like archery involves that much aerobic physical exertion. Pull bow back, let go, repeat several times. No offense intended towards Bowman or Hardesty, but between those guys and myself I don't think any of us are soon to be nominated to be put up on physical fitness posters and none of us had any adverse difficulties in the higher altitude that I'm aware of and the 3 of us didn't fare too badly. I do know its not an optimal place to run a 12-minute fitness test if you're used to sea level - been there, done that, won't do it again, lol - but for shooting archery I noticed no difference. Then again, when I was in poorer shape back in '98 and '00 I didn't think the field courses we shot in UT were too bad either. Its just walking and shooting .

While CO would make for an interesting place to hold a Natls permanently, I personally think the venue should rotate every 2-3 years to make it more convenient for other parts of the country for travel purposes. At least between the Springs, OH, MI, and PA I'm still in a position to drive though, lol !

>>------>


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CHPro said:


> Jim C, as far as I know the Northern Region will have a USAT qualifier next summer - Voyageur Cup in MN.
> 
> And regarding the altitude, 'comon, its not that bad. Not like archery involves that much aerobic physical exertion. Pull bow back, let go, repeat several times. No offense intended towards Bowman or Hardesty, but between those guys and myself I don't think any of us are soon to be nominated to be put up on physical fitness posters and none of us had any adverse difficulties in the higher altitude that I'm aware of and the 3 of us didn't fare too badly. I do know its not an optimal place to run a 12-minute fitness test if you're used to sea level - been there, done that, won't do it again, lol - but for shooting archery I noticed no difference. Then again, when I was in poorer shape back in '98 and '00 I didn't think the field courses we shot in UT were too bad either. Its just walking and shooting .
> 
> ...



different sports do different things-for example-until 06, the Grand american trap shoot was held in the same place year after year. vendors had permanent buildings and hard core trap shooters had their favorite places to eat and camp. No one really had an advantage because save for the Ohio state shoot (which attracts almost all the top guys anyway) that field is closed the rest of the year (the new Illinois facility I doubt this will be true)

the Olympic trials in UIT skeet and trap moved around-usually at the olympic venues at LA and then Atlanta. this wasn't a big deal

however if you hold a trials at say the USAMU field in Benning or the USOTC In CS you are giving those who live at those facilities a big advantage-we might quibble about altitude forever but no one can deny that sleeping in your own bed and shooting on your own field is not an advantage.


I also note that a tournament within driving distance is easier-I can't really take all the stuff my wife and I normally take to nationals via airplanes.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Comments and suggestions*

Wayne,
It would be great for the NAA to provide the scoring software to all the USAT qualifiers.
Excel, not Access because of the before mentioned lack of common Access knowledge and usage.

GT,
No negativity taken, common sense based on experience is always welcome.

Jim,
The North will have the Voyager Cup USAT qualifier in Minnesota if I am not mistaken.

2006 tournaments:
USAT National Indoors, North, South, East, West
USAT Arizona Cup, Arizona, West
USAT Texas Shootout, Texas, South 
USIAC, LA (UCLA), West
Jr World Team Trials, San Diego (Chula Vista), West
USAT Gold Cup, New Jersey, East
JOAD Nationals, Ohio, North
USAT Voyager Cup, Minnesota, North
USAT Field Championship ?
USAT National Target Championship, Colorado Springs, West
Summary:
North 3
South 2
East 2
West 5
And I don't know if I have heard where the Field will be east, south?
It must be frustrating for Easterners to not be able to host their rotation for the JOAD Nationals or continue to host the National Target Championship.

To the easterners that are frustrated that their aren't more tourneys in the east,
A handful of willing and capable volunteers are essential to be able to host a national tournament.
Arizona, Texas, New Jersey, seem to be able to find the volunteers.
Minnesota and Colorado Springs have thrown their hat into the ring with Colorado Springs being strongly supported by the NAA.
Ohio and Chula Vista are practically regulars.

I say any group in any region that steps up and hosts a national tournament deserves a debt of gratitude for serving the archery community.
The best way to have a national tournament take place in your own back yard is to organize the your local archery community with the goal of hosting a first rate tournament and submit a bid.
Dont host with the intent of making money and dont expect to compete in the tourney.
Host because your group wants to serve the local, national and international archery community.
If you feel uncomfortable about taking on the responsibility of a national tournament may I suggest that you go to an outdoor USAT qualifying tournament and ask to help.
I am sure your offer to help will be well received and you will gain the confidence your club needs to be able to host a national tourney.
Easterner have the Gold Cup nearby to learn from.
Any USAT qualifier tournament director can answer any tournament question.
Brad Camp can hook you up with a number of resources.
There is either a Jr or Sr Outdoor Trails to bid on every year.


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## huggybear (Sep 30, 2004)

CHPro said:


> And regarding the altitude, 'comon, its not that bad. Not like archery involves that much aerobic physical exertion. Pull bow back, let go, repeat several times. No offense intended towards Bowman or Hardesty, but between those guys and myself I don't think any of us are soon to be nominated to be put up on physical fitness posters and none of us had any adverse difficulties in the higher altitude that I'm aware of and the 3 of us didn't fare too badly. I do know its not an optimal place to run a 12-minute fitness test if you're used to sea level - been there, done that, won't do it again, lol - but for shooting archery I noticed no difference. Then again, when I was in poorer shape back in '98 and '00 I didn't think the field courses we shot in UT were too bad either.
> 
> >>------>


Excuse me for saying this, but YES the altitude does make a difference, at least for recurve archers. I've lived in Colorado Springs all summer, and I noticed a huge difference my first 2 weeks there. And I'm in very good physical condition! Archery, at least the competitive portion, is very much breathing oriented, and if you're not acclimated to it can have a huge affect on you. And it is a very physically demanding sport if you think about it, much more so than other sports. In track and field, many races you do once, twice or 3 times. We have to shoot how many arrows/day(not many at nationals but you have to have the endurance to do more). And if the average recurve archers shoots 45lbs. and 100 shots per day(very light load) it's still 4500lbs that you have pulled. I think that qualifies as being physical. Now, you also have to mention the increase in time it takes for you to recover after each shot. So YES, the altitude does make quite a difference, especially from sea level!


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Serious Fun,

Sent you a PM.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

IIRC, a gain of 5000' is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 7% loss in air density. For archery, an essentially anaerobic activity, the perceived effort may be very minimally affected. What MIGHT be affected is the 1. higher order brain functions such as reasoning, and 2. a very slight degradation of fine motor skills at this altitude. I can't say to what degree, however, it seems to me that someone who is already in marginal or poor condition will be affected more than someone in good shape such as Guy, and that could make a significant difference in scores.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

huggybear said:


> Excuse me for saying this, but YES the altitude does make a difference, at least for recurve archers. I've lived in Colorado Springs all summer, and I noticed a huge difference my first 2 weeks there. And I'm in very good physical condition! Archery, at least the competitive portion, is very much breathing oriented, and if you're not acclimated to it can have a huge affect on you. And it is a very physically demanding sport if you think about it, much more so than other sports. In track and field, many races you do once, twice or 3 times. We have to shoot how many arrows/day(not many at nationals but you have to have the endurance to do more). And if the average recurve archers shoots 45lbs. and 100 shots per day(very light load) it's still 4500lbs that you have pulled. I think that qualifies as being physical. Now, you also have to mention the increase in time it takes for you to recover after each shot. So YES, the altitude does make quite a difference, especially from sea level!



I agree, altitude effects breathing, and breathing is a HUGE part of the sport.



Yes, Co is central if you look at a map, but look at a map showing where each NAA member lives. CO does not come close to being in the center. Nationals should be either in the North or east section to get the best potential for a great turnout. This is a huge country and no single location that will please everyone. but there are locations that will please most. CO is not one of those places. And as far as the poll goes for NFAA nationals in yankton, i dont think it means anything because of course those people wouldnt mind going again because they can make it. Send out a letter and get an answer form the people who didnt attend as well.

I didnt see any complaint for holding nationals in reading the past 2 years.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

:zip: I will keep this clean...

What happens when an American Team travels to another country and the altitude is above 5000'??? Do we complain about it? If we did so as we are now doing with the NAA Nationals location, the rest of the world would laugh the butts of....

Have the American people become so pampered that the slightest discomfort is over analyzed to the *Nth * degree? Get real folks, some of you lead a much too pampered life. If the state of Colorado provided so few shooters at the Nationals then the rest of us were on an even playing field. 

Environmental conditions such as wind, rain, heat, cold, humidity and altitude will impact each and every person in a more or less degree. As far as I know there is no perfect place that would satisfy everyone. Please stop the over analyzing and start planning on how you and your family can get to Colorado Springs in 2006...

I'm finished now!


Stan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> :zip: I will keep this clean...
> 
> What happens when an American Team travels to another country and the altitude is above 5000'??? Do we complain about it? If we did so as we are now doing with the NAA Nationals location, the rest of the world would laugh the butts of....
> 
> ...



poor argument stan-the nationals is for the membership. It is not used to pick teams-that is the purpose of trials. USAT membership doesn't mean you go on a trip-its the rolling rank. The Nationals should cater to as many of the members as possible and should be set in an area where the PROBABILITY of ideal conditions for shooting good scores is MAXIMIZED.

trials is a different matter but the nationals should allow a 1000 shooter or an 1100 shooter or a 1200 to realize their PR's not a place where a guy like Jason McKittrick shoots under 1250 both days or where a pair of 1300s wins


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Huggybear has pointed out that high altitudes do affect the performance of our elite athletes. This can be overcome by spending some time at the high altitudes. He also has pointed out that the elite athletes are compensated by the USOC for their average score. Add in that probably only 2-3 % of our current elite athletes and potential elite athletes live or train at a high altitude, it appears reasonable to question holding the NAA outdoor at CS. Most people cannot take the additional week or so off work in order to perform well at CS.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BILL B said:


> Huggybear has pointed out that high altitudes do affect the performance of our elite athletes. This can be overcome by spending some time at the high altitudes. He also has pointed out that the elite athletes are compensated by the USOC for their average score. Add in that probably only 2-3 % of our current elite athletes and potential elite athletes live or train at a high altitude, it appears reasonable to question holding the NAA outdoor at CS. Most people cannot take the additional week or so off work in order to perform well at CS.


this is the point I was making Bill when I was an elite skeet shooter. The army had an advantage because they would get there a couple weeks in advance and get used to it. 

AS I NOTED -all else being EQUAL some one acclimated to the altitude has an advantage.

Interestingly, in 2000 FITA limited field shoots in altitude-no more 11000 foot high venues


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> I didnt see any complaint for holding nationals in reading the past 2 years.


Well, I guess denial *isn't* just a river in Egypt....


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

My argument may be weak, but if we all are shooting at a location regardless of what the environmental conditions may be then were are all at the same advantage or disadvantage. 

So if it is 100 degrees and 60% humidity in bright blazing sun at 700' and Jason shoots a 1250.. what are we to do now? The altitude (5000') does not bother me but 100 + 65% does... 

I did not shoot well in CS purely for one reason.. I did not practice enough in the wind or rain.

I will be more prepaired next year... :thumbs_up 

I hope to see you in CS next year. 


Stan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Jim,
> 
> My argument may be weak, but if we all are shooting at a location regardless of what the environmental conditions may be then were are all at the same advantage or disadvantage.
> 
> ...


I don't go to shoots anymore that I can't drive to-20 years of traveling around the world with guns sort of wore out my tolerance of airport BS. I think you miss the point. I have shot a dozen or so NAA nationals-outdoor indoor and field. I shot my first NFAA indoor nationals a few months ago. no comparison in terms of catering to the CUSTOMERS. I will go to Louisville next year assuming my surgery is able to deal with my shoulder issues. (I will shoot a crossbow if I can't shoot my Matrix or Xfactor).

You don't seem to understand why MOST people go to a national tournament. Maybe in 4 years when I am fifty I might have a chance of medaling in the outdoor (and that assumes Ed moves up and Darrell doesn't come out of retirement as he keeps threatening to do etc) but not the times I went to Canton.

Going to a place where your scores are going to suck and the conditions are going to be nasty isn't going to grow the sport.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Just for reference Jim, I'll suggest that Stan is your elder in this game and understands perfectly the reason folks go to shoot nationals as well as anyone on the line.

Hanging out with guys like Stan in those conditions was more than enough reason for me to want to go do it again.

I for one appreciate the fact that nationals will be in CS for the next few years. As a family man, I like wise don't have the option to fly all over the country to do shoots. While I fully understand that my gain is someone elses loss, I count it a privalege to be able to have it only 9 hours away by truck.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

c3hammer said:


> Just for reference Jim, I'll suggest that Stan is your elder in this game and understands perfectly the reason folks go to shoot nationals as well as anyone on the line.
> 
> Hanging out with guys like Stan in those conditions was more than enough reason for me to want to go do it again.
> 
> ...


Pete I don't need you to lecture me on Stan's reasons or what he knows. I am not attempting to speak for him and his status in the sport doesn't need anyone reminding me what I already know. I am speaking from my experience of traveling to tournaments in 6 different sport in the last 35 years. The bottom line is that a tournament that is designed to cater to the membership (rather than the "elite athletes" [which I was in a couple sports-Squash (US #19 and Skeet ) has to be attractive to the largest number of members as possible. A tournament that in PROBABILITY is going to keep scores low or impose challenging weather conditions is NOT GOING to do that.
Guys like Stan and gt (and at one time Me-like the Pan Am trials in 91 with 122 degrees temperature and constant trap machine failures-11 hours to shoot a 100 skeet targets) are going to go to these tournaments no matter the conditions because they love archery. However, there are many members who -having to choose between how to allocate their vacation time and money are going to be less likely to go to a tournament that requires air travel or is in a place where the chance of shooting near one's personal best is going to be low.



Nothing More, Nothing Less


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Pete,
Thanks for the kind words. It is people like you, Ed and Mike that make this such a fun aport. By the way, the BMG will come to pass..   

Jim,

I do not want to argue this issue anymore. It seems to be more of an issue of families making a decision to accept the expense of a trip to CS over other family travel. The only reason that issues such as weather, altitude wind or whatever is to distract from the real reason. 

The ONLY people that have raised issues are the ones put out by the move to Colorado. 

I could really care less where the Nationals are held. I just like to shoot arrows and even more I like to shoot with folks from all parts of the country..

I may even make it to the NFAA indoor in 2006...

Thanks for the spirit!!

Stan :cocktail:


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Some quotes that seem to illustrate the major premises central to this thread:



> It seems to be more of an issue of families making a decision to accept the expense of a trip to CS over other family travel.


...To maximize attendance, this is an important premise to accept: the more difficult/expensive it is for the majority of the membership to attend, the less will be the attendance. If one doesn't accept that this premise is or should be a guiding principle for the organizers (i.e., the NAA), then one has to accept that holding a Nats is for the benefit of the archers who will go anywhere the organizers choose to hold Nats...




> I could really care less where the Nationals are held. I just like to shoot arrows and even more I like to shoot with folks from all parts of the country..


...A relatively small number of folks (a reasonable assumption??) will go wherever the tournament is held, and those of a similar bent to the above archer are attracted by the 'festival' -like atmosphere first, and archery second. For others of the go-anywhere inclination, it wll be likely be archery first and festival atmosphere second. The point remains that a relative few will attend, regardless of venue. Another (relatively) small group is the elite archer who is contending for national ranking and/or recognition. 




> I for one appreciate the fact that nationals will be in CS for the next few years. As a family man, I like wise don't have the option to fly all over the country to do shoots. While I fully understand that my gain is someone elses loss, I count it a privalege to be able to have it only 9 hours away by truck.


...Unlike the minority groups noted above, the majority of potential Nats attendees cannot afford to go wherever the tournament is being held; the probability of their attendance is maximized (therefore the probability of greater revenue) when the venue is within driving distance.




> Yes, Co is central if you look at a map, but look at a map showing where each NAA member lives. CO does not come close to being in the center. Nationals should be either in the North or east section to get the best potential for a great turnout. This is a huge country and no single location that will please everyone. but there are locations that will please most. CO is not one of those places.


...CS is a beautiful venue and an attractive place to vacation. And yes, CS probably saves the NAA money on staff travel expenses. Even so, CS hardly seems to be a location that is likely to maximize attendance and therefore revenue. Now, admittedly this is a huge assumption based, except for attendance figures and membership concentrations, on mostly anecdotal evidence. 

This is an interesting and relevant thread about a topic that is very important to the NAA membership. Because of the lack of hard information, it would be illuminating to have someone from the BOG or NAA staff respond with answers to questions like:

> Who actually makes the decisions concerning the location of Outdoor Nationals? Is it proposed by NAA staff and approved by the BOG, or is it strictly an NAA executive decision? 

> Are there goals and/or criteria for considering venues, and if so, what are they? If not, why not? If they exist, does the BOG participate in the setting of these goals/criteria? If they exist, are the goals/criteria communicated to the membership? 

> Is there an 'after action' report for gleaning lessons learned? If so, what were they?

A better understanding of the decision making process would go a long way to answering many of the questions posed on this thread.


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## Jane (Nov 3, 2004)

*NAA Nationals/*

These are good questions. My answers are interspersed below:

> Who actually makes the decisions concerning the location of Outdoor Nationals? Is it proposed by NAA staff and approved by the BOG, or is it strictly an NAA executive decision? 

**For the last 10 years or so, the NAA Executive Director has sent requests in November/December to interested cities and NAA clubs to host the Outdoor Nationals as well as Indoor Nationals, trials tournaments and USAT qualifiers. The bids are due in February for tournaments to be held the following year and are reviewed by the NAA Board of Governors (BoG) at the spring Board meeting. Requirements for Outdoor Nationals include, but are not limited to, a 3-year commitment by the host city/club, a minimum payment of cash and/or value-in-kind, appropriate and adequate range areas, storage facilities for the extensive range equipment, hotel/camping accommodations for archers, etc. Bid forms may be requested from the NAA Office in the late fall.

> Are there goals and/or criteria for considering venues, and if so, what are they? If not, why not? If they exist, does the BOG participate in the setting of these goals/criteria? If they exist, are the goals/criteria communicated to the membership? 

**See above. Since you asked, it is apparent that the communication with the membership may be lacking to a certain extent, but that may not be the fault of the organization per se. How many NAA members have requested a copy of the minutes of a Board meeting, or have reviewed the request for tournament bids sent to their clubs, or have communicated their desires to the appropriate regional or arhlete representatives, or made recommendations to their representatives on the Board, or have volunteered to serve on NAA Committees? For those who have accomplished these actions, my sincere thanks for your interest.

> Is there an 'after action' report for gleaning lessons learned? If so, what were they?
**The Tournament Committee annually submits a report to the Board.

On a related topic, to those who voted in this year's election, I say "thank you!" As a returning Board member representing the South Region, I appreciate all who voted and will do my best to fulfill your expectations. Please feel free to contact me with your ideas for improving our organization.

Sincerely,

Jane


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Somehow, I just knew it would be Jane that would answer those questions! She is always attentive and her responsiveness to archers needs is only of the many very good reasons why she has been returned to the BoG. Thank you, Jane!



> For the last 10 years or so, the NAA Executive Director has sent requests in November/December to interested cities and NAA clubs to host the Outdoor Nationals as well as Indoor Nationals, trials tournaments and USAT qualifiers.


Jane, one more question about "interested cities and NAA clubs". NAA clubs is straightforward enough, but how does a city become identified as being interested and then approached? Am familiar with the role that they play in other events, but in your experience, what role have clubs played in hosting Outdoor Nats? What kind of Outdoor Nats role is feasible, or even desirable, for a club?

Thanks...thanks...thanks...


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## Jane (Nov 3, 2004)

*NAA Nationals*

W.C.: Thanks for 'them' kind words. More than happy to answer when I can.

A little history: Before we went to Orlando in '96, we had a "permanent" location in Ohio. If I recall correctly, the only concession the university made to the NAA expense was a few comp rooms for the judges and organizing committee. (This was before judges were paid perdiem.) There was no sponsorship (other than a few trinkets and coupons for the archers) forthcoming from any of the town's businesses, even tho' archers patronized the businesses in the evenings eating out and shopping in the stores.

In the mid-90s, about the time the U.S. Olympic Festivals were being phased out and Atlanta was preparing for the '96 Olympics, the then Executive Director recognized that the Outdoor Nationals was the only event we have that is large enough to 'sell" so as to make the event break even and sought out cities which might be interested in bidding on it. Obviously, the convention bureau of a mid-sized city or a suburb of a larger city would be more likely to be interested in an event the size of ours. It is also very helpful if there is a local or state club available to provide experience and knowledgeable volunteers from the area to answer questions, overcome unforeseen obstacles and support the convention bureau's preparations. (Elsewhere on this forum it has been noted that Reading did not work with the local club, however.)

A club can initiate the process by contacting the convention bureau (or its equivalent) and letting the NAA Executive Director know of their interest.

We are presently committed to having Nationals in Colorado Springs for the next two years (a requirement of having this year's event staged there on such short notice). So we have until November, 2006, before the bid requests will be sent out for the 2008-09-10 National Championships, plenty of time to plan ahead.

Sincerely,

Jane


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Jane,

Thanks very much for the great background info; it is very helpful to our understanding of the process. And the essence of that process, as I now understand it, is that it first relies on club level contact with a convention bureau (typically) and clubs (despite the Reading experience) for volunteer manpower, followed by NAA Executive Director negotiating with the municipal authority/bureau. The BoG becomes involved after this point, in what sounds like an approval process.

Please correct if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound as if there are any estimates of economic benefit to the municipality or other efforts to 'package' the Nats as an event which would be attractive to them (other than the Orlando Nats -- which could be the subject of its own thread). Neither do I hear anything about consideration of ease of access with an eye toward maximizing potential attendance. If these factors are a part of the process, please correct me.

Here is the bottom line: we have a relatively large event. Outdoor Nats is not a huge event by any means, but it does have a reasonable economic footprint that should be attractive to locales of appropriate size and facilities. Given what we now know, the following questions seem appropriate:

> Is our effort to market this event producing the desired results? If not, why not? Tentative answers: Not clear yet, but the answers are beginning to sound like 'only partly', and 'don't know why'.

> Are we taking appropriate consideration of the factors that influence attendance and member participation? If not, why not? Tentative answers: We probably are, but its not yet clear whether those efforts are sufficient. 

I hope the foregoing doesn't sound critical of the effort being made by NAA staff and others that may be involved. Such is not intended. The participation/comments on this thread and Jane's background info together suggest a need for more NAA communication about the selection process. The Outdoor Nationals is our organizations premier event; it showcases our sport to the rest of the U.S. For our membership, it is our annual celebration of archery. As such, it deserves our very best efforts.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Wayne,

Recognizing you addressed this to Jane, so apologies for butting in...



> Please correct if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound as if there are any estimates of economic benefit to the municipality or other efforts to 'package' the Nats as an event which would be attractive to them


I recall the NAA has done exactly this in the past, and this year they issued a very well-rounded questionaire to each participant designed to glean just this kind of information. They also provided some sort of attractive incentive to turn in the form, though I'm not quite clear on just what that was.

I seem to recall the NAA had this type of information available back in the Oxford days, and being slightly gobsmacked that the Oxford municipal powers-that-were didn't much care given the (impressive to me) numbers.


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## farms100 (Jan 16, 2003)

oldreliable67 said:


> Jane,
> 
> 
> Here is the bottom line: we have a relatively large event. Outdoor Nats is not a huge event by any means, but it does have a reasonable economic footprint that should be attractive to locales of appropriate size and facilities. Given what we now know, the following questions seem appropriate:
> ...


I am not sure I would call the NAA nationals a large event. On the scale of many amatuer sport national championships its small. This years attendance was 400+ people. You will probabbly get around 300 rooms rented per night out of that. The small city I live in has 1200-1300 rooms. For a weekend regional youth hockey tournament all these rooms are filled plus many in the surounding towns. (hotels hate hockey tournament, but they fill the hotel) Most of the conventions I helped run were 1200-1500 people or more. We filled one major hotel in boston. For the last large event I went to had 5-6 thousand people. we filled 5 major hotels in boston, and used all the funtcion space in the two major hotels and the attatched convetion center. 

I think a problem is Finding enough volunteer to be willing to not shoot and work there behinds off. For the conventions I help organize if you worked over 8 hours in the course of a weekend You gota free t-shirt, with a design that only volunteeers got. Assuming their was profit, the more work you did the better the reward, next level was free membership to the next years event. After that it was You got your hotel room paid. Often they would bring in pizzas for dinner. but You could work enough hours to get your t-shirt and still not miss out on doing other things.

If you have good organiztion You can set up and tear down the feild with your local pool of people. That leaves running the day to day operations and trouble shooting problems. PLus lots of replacing targets and centers when you are geting shoot throughs. I am sure there is a lot of things most attendees dont see.


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## FITAchick (Feb 8, 2004)

*Altitude sickness...*



ksarcher said:


> I understand there may be a few people that suffer from altitude sickness but if a person is in reasonable physical condition this should not be a factor for deciding the location.


This is true and you have hit the nail on the head, Stan. I have a multitude of health problems including neurological as well as cardiovascular and respiratory. I have been under constant doctors treatment for 25 years. I consider myself in reasonably good health and physical condition considering the chronic health issues I struggle with each and every day. I have never allowed health conditions to affect my level of athletic competition. I have competed in highly competitive volleyball as well as other sports since junior high. Truth be known, I had absolutely NO problem with the altitude at CS. I arrived on Saturday (the day before practice) and left the following Saturday. Not once did I feel winded or short of breath or suffer any ill effects because of the altitude. I even went up in to the mountains and hiked around at around 11 thousand feet for several hours just after the OR Round on Friday. Aside from being a bit more thirsty than I am down at around 1800 feet, I felt absolutely no ill affects from the altitude. Please accept my apologies... but for a healthy person to complain about the " high altitude" is a cop out plain and simple. If an athlete with moderate to severe chronic health conditions can do it... so can able bodied athletes with little or no medical conditions to contend with.

Further, the wind and rain are "expected" in outdoor competition. If an archer states they "can't" compete in those conditions... then I suggest they stick to *indoors only* competition where unpredictable weather conditions are not a consideration. The usual conditions my son and I practice in are rarely rainy nor are they in excess of 15 to 20 miles per hour wind gusts. I have never had the opportunity to learn more about what it takes to become a more experienced archer than what I just experienced in CS. In fact, yesterday in practice; my son, his local coach and I were out practicing in a downpour of rain... just before flash flood warnings were issued for my area.


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## FITAchick (Feb 8, 2004)

oldreliable67 said:


> And speaking of scoring software, it seems to me that the NAA should provide a standardized scoring software package for use at the USAT selection tournaments... Scoring software is not rocket science, but even so, it is easy for non-professionals to produce easily broken Excel spreadsheets or Access databases. (I know, I've done it several times!) A single-sourced, professionally produced scoring software package should help eliminate many of those errors that occured in the last nine events that GT refers to -- perhaps not all, but by far the majority.


From 1984 until 1998, I judged and scored National level waterski tournaments. One of the judges who is a computer software guru, created a "sport specific" scoring software he lovingly named: WSTIMS. This eliminated any handling of registration or scoring "by hand". The software was originally written in DOS and other now outdated software -- but progressed to a MS/access based product in todays' standards. Every conceivable scenario including seeded "run-offs" were written in to the program which is utilized at each and every sanctioned tournament. The software has its own registration base which also catagorizes athletes to the division to which they are registering -- including adjudication tables which would alert the Chief Scorer when an athlete attempted to register in the wrong division based on age or previous scoring history. Final scores are downloaded on a website where every athletes' national rank is kept accurate and most importantly -- current. It seems to me that consistancy would be the biggest advantage for someone to create such a software for US Archery to use for any of the US sanctioned events.

We have a gentleman in our area who created his own software and used it to compile scores from a local indoor tournament this last season. Results were beautifully compiled in print form and compared to original score card copies... we even entered arrow values for every end and to evaluate the accuracy of the software he created. It was awesome.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Farms and GT: thanks for the feedback.

Gt...thats interesting. I only got to Oxford once, that single 'return-to-Oxford' Nats sandwiched between other venues. For years though, while we were going to Orlando and the first trips to Canton, all I heard from some 'veteran' archers in our area was, "Geez, Nats was so much better/more fun/closer/cheaper/you name it in Oxford. We should go back there!" Eventually, they got their wish. The lesson learned long ago was that you just can't please everybody. It was true and still true today.

It sounds like the kind of info necessary to 'sell' an event was indeed put together during those days. If so, is it being used? If it didn't do the job in Oxford, I don't think that necessarily means it was inadequate or not useful for others. You refer to being 'gobsmacked' by the numbers; if it was impressive to a numbers and detail-oriented guy like yourself, my guess is that is was pretty comprehensive. Is this kind of effort still being put together today? 

Farms...the key word here I think is 'relative'. Sure, Outdoor Nats is not something that would be booked into the Javits Center in NY. But roughly 1000 folks (assuming 400 to 500 competitors with an average of one 'buddy' - and I think it would actually be more than that) will make a desireable contribution to the area that is relatively modest in size. The key is accurate targeting, IMHO. From your posts, one would gather that you have some experience at this. How would you suggest we go about targeting locales?

Good feedback...thanks.


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

*shooting format*

There is one aspect of the shooting format that I find undesirable but don't know how to change it. The format is to have male recurve archers shoot at the same time as female compound archers and female recurve archers shoot at the same time male compound archers. Logistically this is convenient. 

We would like to have families participate but make it difficult for them to do so. Since most couples shoot the same shooting style, this forces the couple to shoot on separate lines. With only one car available, the couple's day begins at 6:00am and ends after dinner at 10:00pm. The result if that the tournament for a shooting couple becomes a 4 day marathon. Since only 3-4 couples ever participate in an outdoor tournament, solving this problem is not a high priority. I wonder if more couples would shoot if they could shoot on the same line.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BILL B said:


> There is one aspect of the shooting format that I find undesirable but don't know how to change it. The format is to have male recurve archers shoot at the same time as female compound archers and female recurve archers shoot at the same time male compound archers. Logistically this is convenient.
> 
> We would like to have families participate but make it difficult for them to do so. Since most couples shoot the same shooting style, this forces the couple to shoot on separate lines. With only one car available, the couple's day begins at 6:00am and ends after dinner at 10:00pm. The result if that the tournament for a shooting couple becomes a 4 day marathon. Since only 3-4 couples ever participate in an outdoor tournament, solving this problem is not a high priority. I wonder if more couples would shoot if they could shoot on the same line.



Bill-back before Ashley, Michelle and Aya were able to shoot both lines, men shot one line as you know women the other. At the Oxford nationals that meant my wife and I were shooting different lines-since we lived 30 miles away, no big deal. Next year at canton, they had women compound (I know you know this-this is for people not there) shot with male recurve-my wife was shooting compound-again no big deal. Now that liz is shooting BB the alternative lines is another reason we didn't go CS. You are right though, I can't think of too many couples who both shoot-Kathy and Mark Miller, the Botts's and you are the only three couples that come to mind without me thinking too hard


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