# What is better about a custom-made bow? Sage vs other Samick bows



## Chupacabras (Feb 10, 2006)

If you want a custom bow at a good price try shopping the classified adds. I have purchased several top end custom bows in like new condition for half the new price.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

IMHO most "custom" bows are just fancy wood put together and finished a little better (some a LOT better). That's about it, very few are actually 100% custom (could count makers on one hand in the US).
For YOU what you need to do is learn some more about yourself. Have you had your draw length properly measured? That will effect what the correct bow will be.

If I had $400 I'd be shopping for a used TradTech Pinnacle with some 30# limbs, depending on your DL.

-Grant


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

If your new you probably don't have a good idea of what you want and need.

Most 'custom' bows are just 'choose your wood, grip, weight, and length', not that that's not great but there's nothing magical.

I'd get a metal ilf bow, that should give you a good idea of what you like


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

At the risk of getting my head bit off for this (it's happened before): the only real way to answer your question is for you to try shooting something like a Sage, then shooting a custom fit to your specs and needs; and yes, I do know that's a painfully obvious answer. Doesn't negate it's truth, though.

It's somewhat like the difference between buying a custom-tailored suit off Bond Street, London, as opposed to buying a suit from JC Pennys; to some, well worth the extra money; to others, it would be akin to flushing a few thousand bucks down the toilet; they'd have no need or desire for such an expensive item, even though they'd easily recognize the difference in quality.

Like Grant says, IMO, the number of true custom bowyers is minimal, compared to the number who call themselves such but really are building no more than bench-made/hand-made bows in various models; you select the model closest to your needs. (There are, however, a few bowyers marketing bows designed and built to a specific model/type, but fit to _your_ specific needs and specs - you contact them directly and the bow is built to your specific AMO length, draw length, tiller, etc: Kegan McCabe being an example). 

When you approach the search with a budget cap of $400, the number of true custom builders shrinks to a mere handful.

There's no question that many custom bows are superior to the Sage... but not all of 'em are all 'that' much better. It all depends on what you need, want, desire, and are willing to pay.

EDIT: Just re-read your title and the OP, and realized I got off track. The Samick Phoenix isn't a 'custom' bow by any definition; like the difference between Ford and Mercury, Chevy and GMC, it's simply a Sage in a nice tie. Other than fit and finish, I don't find all that much difference in the shooting characteristics between the Sage and Phoenix... and certainly no difference in the inherant accuracy of the two. But there's no denying the Phoenix is the prettier of the two...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Seems a few folks and a few manufacturers love to say "custom"...instead of customized. ..

If the bow is a off the shelf model built to your specifications. ..it is a customized bow IMHO...If it is a 1 of a kind. ..then it truly is a custom bow...

Big difference between the two. In this case......your paying for a upgrade. .

Only you can make the decision if it's worth it, after all it's your money. 

Personally. ..I would go somewhere and look at as many different bows as you can. .to at least have a good idea of what fits you. ........and what strikes your fancy, then find what fits your budget. 

Who knows if you will like shooting a recurve You may prefer a long bow instead. Till you have shot a few different types, you won't really know. 

Take the time now to find out. Save a little while longer, then, once you have a good idea of what you want, spenda more to get the best you can afford., ,evenif it is a great used one. 

Mac


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

Go ilf.


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## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

You did not specifically say anything about a ONE-PIECE bow or a TAKEDOWN bow although the Sage is a Takedown... I have been shooting one piece recurves for 55 years so when I decided to get back into target shooting a couple years ago I bought a 62" - 35# RAGIM MATRIX at local hunting shop for $95.00. I shot it for about 3 months and decided to go up to a 68" 45# WIN & WIN ILF bow. In those same two years I now own 9 recurve bows and 3 CUSTOM HYBRID REFLEX DEFLEX LONGBOWS. Except for that RAGIM MATRIX and the W&W ILF Target bow ALL of my bows were purchased on eBay or here on AT Classified Ads. After adding a target sight to that RAGIM MATRIX I sold it on eBay for $150 or about $20 more than the bow and sight originally cost me so keep that in mind when you are buying your first bow.

GB45


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grantmac said:


> IMHO most "custom" bows are just fancy wood put together and finished a little better (some a LOT better). That's about it, very few are actually 100% custom (could count makers on one hand in the US).
> For YOU what you need to do is learn some more about yourself. Have you had your draw length properly measured? That will effect what the correct bow will be.
> 
> If I had $400 I'd be shopping for a used TradTech Pinnacle with some 30# limbs, depending on your DL.
> ...



What he said ^^^^

A Sage is a great bow one of my daughters shoots one 

For hat you can spend I would buy an Ilf setup and grow with it


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Also beware bow shops 

Bow shops that specialize in recurves are few and far between 

Learn as much as you can on the Internet maybe get your draw length measured at maybe a bow shop and Han do your shopping omlime with someone like LAS 

Most (notice I did not say all) people working in most compound oriented pro shops no nothing about traditional gear


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## jdianeo (Jun 17, 2013)

Why is an ILF so much better than another takedown bow? I was planning takedown, as I was told it is a good beginning bow, that can easily be adjusted with new limbs as you improve and get stronger.

What is LAS? Is that Lancaster?

Lots of good advice. I think I will at least go try some different things before making any decisions. The local shop I plan on using is https://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/index_new.asp. They seem to have a good reputation, from what I've heard in Denver anyway.


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## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

By the way - as some others have said GO ILF for your first bow . . . WHY? You can use the same RISER and change the limbs to shorter, longer, lighter, or stronger as your experience increases. You mentioned UPGRADING LATER as an option - ILF gives you that ability at the lowest cost because you use the same riser and only change the limbs and string if you increase or decrease the length. I mentioned in the precious post that I went from the 62" 35# RAGIM to my W&W Riser at 68" 45#. What I did not mention is I actually went to a 66" W&W at 36# and after shooting that about 3 months I bought the longer and stronger limbs I now have at 68" and 45#. Through that change I was using the same riser and the same grip and the same sight system. Adding the longer and stronger limbs and longer string changed very little in the sight window of the bow - it was just adding 2 inches to the length of the bow (1 inch on top and 1 inch on the bottom) and a stronger draw that gave me more arrow speed and flatter trajectory.

GB45


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## Nordh (Feb 4, 2013)

jdianeo said:


> Why is an ILF so much better than another takedown bow? I was planning takedown, as I was told it is a good beginning bow, that can easily be adjusted with new limbs as you improve and get stronger.
> 
> What is LAS? Is that Lancaster?
> 
> Lots of good advice. I think I will at least go try some different things before making any decisions. The local shop I plan on using is https://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/index_new.asp. They seem to have a good reputation, from what I've heard in Denver anyway.


Myself and at least 3 friends have bought bows from Tom and RMS gear. I highly recommend them.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Las is Lancaster 

An Ilf bow can give you a more custom fit than ordering a custom bow from a big name bowyer 

I do not like spending money twice so with an ILF rig you can by a good riser and a cheap pair of light limbs of he exchange and than as your wants and needs dictate you can upgrade limbs either new or thru the large amount of used lif limbs out there.

With an Ilf rig to can dial in tiller, weight , etc plus most importantly dial in the sweet spot for your draw length


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Plus if you get John Wert on the phone at LAS and he knows your draw length and the weight you want he can get you set up better over the phone than most compound oriented pro shops in person


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## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

I agree with the others on RMS GEAR.... I live in Raleigh NC area and have purchased 3 bows from them, good folks to deal with. Have since sold one of the bows but here are the two I have kept - - I had a problem with string that came with a bow and they sent me a brand new string at no charge...

Damon Howatt Coronado - 








Damon Howatt Super Diablo Zebrawood . . . 








If you have not looked at their bow lineup just click on the BOW INVENTORY on the home page or click on this link -- - - 

https://www.rmsgear.com/bowshop_inventory.html

GB45


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## jdianeo (Jun 17, 2013)

So takedown only means that it can be easily taken apart for storage/transport? But ILF means you can change to other limbs entirely? Is that the difference?

I was under the impression that you could do that with any takedown bow. 

So, so much to learn...


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

With an Ilf you can buy any makes ILF limb and it will fit your riser 

Ilf is just a universal limb fitment system that is more adjustable and offers you many more options than any other system


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

If you count functionality as "custom" I'd say ILF rigs are the most "custom" bows out there. Custom makers I think have a little more to do with aesthetics - basically what others have mentioned. I doubt I'd spend $700 on a "custom" bow aesthetically speaking but I think if you're geared for a "custom" bow Kegan's are great - highly affordable and you can shape the grip and stain it yourself but it's more of a DIY project (which I personally enjoy).


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1588147
Great information on buying your first recurve, with a nod to the ILF's, on this thread. This will answer many of you initial questions as to what the components and configurations are. 

"Takedown" is generic for a three-piece bow that has removable limbs. Sage would have its own proprietary limbs, Phoenix its own, as well. ILF is a specific format that allows for mixing and matching various manufacturer's limbs and risers as long as they are built to the ILF specifications ... hence the cross-pollinating versatility, and (arguable) advantage to the ILF system if you want to start inexpensive, yet move up to hotter quality limbs as you develop. 

"Custom" is a bit of a loose generic term in that it often is taken to mean a bow (takedown, two, or one-piece) made by an individual bowyer with possibly a small staff of helpers. Lots of these bowyers have several "template" bows that they make - and quite often to astonishing perfection and performance - of varying length and wood combination. 

A true ... by literal definition ... "custom" bowyer is more rare, and would actually build a bow to your exact specs. This ain't cheap, for the equipment to build a unique bow may need to be created specifically for that manufacture ... and this additional labor and material would figure into the price, of course.

The advice given by the above posters is excellent. For starting out, quality inexpensive and "grow with you" equipment is the way to go. You'll be spending plenty on the accessories, to boot. 

Once you're up and running, and if you are truly bitten by the archery bug, you will probably have been surfing every bowyer's website on the planet in a ongoing study of what is out there. Continual reading of forums such as this one will put you up to date on the red-hot and uber cool bows that exist on this planet. Your bookmark folder labeled "Bows" will need three or four screen scrolls to peruse within a year or two. 

You will, based upon your experience with your inexpensive bow, start to become aware of your archery leanings and desires. Perhaps you will become fascinated with the longbow, or perhaps a 50's style recurve ... the list goes on. At that point, you'll be armed with enough experience and information to make a fairly wise decision in purchasing your next "dream" bow. 

Ah, but all that's for later. For now, Plan A is to get your bow and start shooting. Plan B will present itself soon enough.

Good luck.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

If you are going to do any traveling, even if only by car, a take down bow is very nice to have. If you are on a limited budget, the Sage seems like the way to go. If you can spend a little more one of the ILF models is a better idea in my opinion. 

As far as customs, the semantics and definitions already discussed are correct. A true custom is a one-off affair and there really aren't many made that way. There really aren't many _true_ custom _anythings_ available...custom usually (almost always) means _customized_. The Samick Phoenix II is most definitely _not_ what most would consider a custom bow.

What is usually considered "custom" is a standard bow ("base" model) made by the bowyer with your specified options like wood choices, fancy embellishments, grip size, grip shape, draw weight at your specified draw length, and they should come with an impeccable level of fit and finish. They don't necessarily shoot any better than a top quality production bow but most _are_ fabulous shooting bows that are very easy on the eyes...if you like fancy wood. Some do, some don't. Most are made with the hunting crowd in mind, a serious target shooter is more likely to gravitate toward the ILF bows with tuneable rests and limb alignment. The "custom" genre is definitely not an area for someone who doesn't know what they are looking for. Most are _way_ too expensive ($1200-$2000) to be gamling on "will I like it". They also come with a hefty waiting time (6-18 months)...you better know exactly what you are paying and waiting for otherwise it's nothing more than an expensive gamble. The classifieds is the place to research custom bows, you might find just what you want and save a bundle of money. If nothing else you find what you like and can then order what you want if that type of bow is your thing.

If I were going to spend $300-$400 on a first bow I would definitely go ILF. If your goal is hunting I would look at bows that can be shot off the shelf for sake of simplicity. I've read a lot of good things about the Hoyt Excel. For an ILF target/hunting/first bow, it's going to be tough to beat a Trad Tech Pinnacle II or Apex...in your price range, wood riser so no cold hands in November, ILF limbs system...pretty nice setup.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

at a budget of $400 I would get the tradtech pinnacle 2 pack from lancaster archery. or try to find a used tradtech titan riser. thing I like about the metal risers is the option to change the grip or adda rest and plunger later down the road, which I did with my old titan and liked alot. 

that being said I do like my "custom" alot, heck I sold all my others bows and have only been using this one lately.


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## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

There have been a lot of reports of Samick Sage limbs cracking and breaking lately. This can happen to any brand but Samick seems to be leading in this category. 

GB45


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Hey check out omega long bows a custom bow well within you price range.


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## jdianeo (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice so far.

The TradTech ILF bows look nice. However, the minimum weight looks to be 35# which seems like it might be too much for me? I'm not sure. I'm female, 5'4", fairly petite, not the weakest, but far from the strongest either. I just don't want to, as they say, "overbow" myself. I'll get a better idea of what weight I can handle when I go try out some bows, I'm sure. But I think he said the bows we're using in our beginners class are only 15-20# (as there are a lot of kids in the class too). I was thinking 30# might work for me starting out, but I don't know about 35#. Does that seem like a lot for a female beginner to you?

This will be for target only. Not hunting. And I do really prefer the look of the traditional wood over metal. But that's something else I plan to see if I can try out too. Maybe I'll end up loving something a little more modern. Edited to add: I have not tried a longbow before either.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Your bow's draw weight will need to connect to your existing physique and perform exactly as your own muscle and tendon. You will need to be able to control and dominate this "muscle" over dozens and fifties of stress-free shots on a daily basis, without fatigue, and all the while using excellent archery form. You don't want to "weight lift" the bow - you are executing an archery shot to a target. This isn't strength training.

Nothing wrong starting with a bow that is equal to, or slightly under, your existing physique. Over-bowing, however, is perhaps the greatest mistake a beginner can make. If you get to try some bows, then you are way ahead of the curve, for you will experience a session of shooting with a particular weight (or two) and hopefully be able to predict your ultimate purchase with confidence. 

Just FYI, a 20# bow with light arrows will shoot out to 20 yards quite nicely. A 25# bow will shoot 20 to 30 yards with fast, solid authority. So, even if you end up with a fairly light bow, you will be able to shoot in the manner of a true archer from the get-go.

The most important decision you will make right before you plink down your credit card will be your selection of the bow's draw weight. I bought a second bow (that I could actually shoot) a month after my first bow purchase because I didn't time-travel and read this very post that I have just presented to you. My bad ... hopefully ... your good.

Good luck.


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## The Blue Raja (Mar 10, 2012)

PM set


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## Nordh (Feb 4, 2013)

jdianeo said:


> Thanks for all the advice so far.
> 
> The TradTech ILF bows look nice. However, the minimum weight looks to be 35# which seems like it might be too much for me? I'm not sure. I'm female, 5'4", fairly petite, not the weakest, but far from the strongest either. I just don't want to, as they say, "overbow" myself. I'll get a better idea of what weight I can handle when I go try out some bows, I'm sure. But I think he said the bows we're using in our beginners class are only 15-20# (as there are a lot of kids in the class too). I was thinking 30# might work for me starting out, but I don't know about 35#. Does that seem like a lot for a female beginner to you?
> 
> This will be for target only. Not hunting. And I do really prefer the look of the traditional wood over metal. But that's something else I plan to see if I can try out too. Maybe I'll end up loving something a little more modern. Edited to add: I have not tried a longbow before either.


Stay clear of the 35# really. Go either 20# or 25#, that is your best bet.  If you "have to" go 30# to get the bow you want that might work at your draw length but just.. stay clear of 35#.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Well if she got a bow that draws 30 at 28 but she is only 5'4 how much do you want to bet her draw length is only 24 inches?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

OP do your self a favor 

Call john Wert @ LaS and tell him your needs and your budget 

He sets up woman constantly and will get you the most bang for your buck 

Plus the arrows that he sends will work and you will not waste money


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## KevinSmith5 (Jul 26, 2012)

Golfbuddy45 said:


> There have been a lot of reports of Samick Sage limbs cracking and breaking lately. This can happen to any brand but Samick seems to be leading in this category.
> 
> GB45


Lately? I was of the opinion that issue occurred several years ago when they having a sub-contractor make limbs and had since been resolved by Sammick taking the limb production back in house....

I have a Sammick Sage with 60 lb limbs that I bought several months ago simply so I could look at the competition (full disclosure I make and sell long bows at SCA events) since I'd been seeing them a lot at events. On first impression I thought it was ugly as sin, the finish on the riser was uneven and heavy, the riser was blocky looking and had lots of sharp angles that made it look cheap, and as loud as any compound I'd ever heard. But it was and still is a good shooter. 
I made a new string (the stock one was awful), put some beaver fur strips in the string and calves skin padding on the string grooves reduced the loud (still louder than my worst longbow by far, but thats just a recurve). I stripped and sanded the riser to make it less blocky and it is now quite a bit better looking. I think if you have $400 to spend on a bow I'd get a better bow than a Sage, but if you have $400 to spend on ARCHERY I'd get the sage, silencers, groove pads, a shelf pad, a fastflight string (the stock one was awful)some arrows, an arm guard, a glove, and a target. (Sanding and refinishing the riser is optional but worth the time). If the 35 lb draw minimum for a Sage is a concern (I don't think it will be) you can also fit Sammick Polaris limbs to this riser.


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## Sterling_Archer (May 8, 2013)

Just my hunch, but I think that is due to the number of Sage's in circulation. If you sell ten times the bows, you will probably have ten times the issues, but that doesn't mean it's not a good bow.

Of course, I am biased, I have a Sage and I love it!


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