# Let's discuss Inside Out scoring



## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I am NOT a fan of Inside Out scoring. I think it will ultimately hurt the sport more than help. 

An alternate scoring idea I would like to throw to the masses is to make an arrow touch the higher scoring area inside the ring to get the higher score instead of punishing a shooter for touching the line.

Thoughts??


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

you can make a pro circuit and score that way. Kinda like the PGA of Archery.

but for the rest of us, nope don't want nothing to do with it. And it ain't the rest of us fighting arrow size either.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

It can go either way. In Tennis the line is in....In football the line is out on the sidelines but you just have "break the plane" in the endzone. In the sport of archery I believe the line is in. Go closest to the middle during shootoff situations. In/out is not the answer I think. Unlimited should be able to shoot what ever is on the market arrow wise. Impose a limit on limited classes. The guy shooting bowhunter class should not be allowed to shoot 27's because he would not be shooting those at an animal (unless he was a complete fool). OR do the opposite. Restrict only the PROs to an arrow size and let the JOE's pound the 27's :tongue:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

itchyfinger said:


> It can go either way. In Tennis the line is in....In football the line is out on the sidelines but you just have "break the plane" in the endzone. In the sport of archery I believe the line is in. *Go closest to the middle during shootoff situations.* In/out is not the answer I think. Unlimited should be able to shoot what ever is on the market arrow wise. Impose a limit on limited classes. The guy shooting bowhunter class should not be allowed to shoot 27's because he would not be shooting those at an animal (unless he was a complete fool). OR do the opposite. Restrict only the PROs to an arrow size and let the JOE's pound the 27's :tongue:


Why change the rules when one gets to a shoot off? If touching the line was good enough to get you in a shoot off, I'd say stick with the same scoring system. The in-side-out for shoot offs is nothing more than a way to "get it over with" and I'm afraid "closest to the center" would leave way too much room for interpretation. I say, let em shoot it out using the same scoring system that got them there. Let em shoot till someone misses - might be from fatigue, but so be it.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

I would do everything I can to prevent inside out scoring from becoming a reality...It is only going to make the gap between the "Pros" and the Joes appear to be bigger. It won't really be bigger but scores will be further apart than they currently are...The elite shooters will still hammer the middle time after time like they always do...The Joes will still hang around the edge, they just will be punished more often...

Back in the Heyday of Field archery when it was vastly popular, the target was scored 5-3. It was essentially the same target just had a dot the size of the pro-line (5) the rest of the target was a 3. The X back then was essentially the same size as the dot is today...A casual weekend warrior could and would shoot scores that matched the pros (560) just not the x-count...It gave the average guy hope he could compete...

They changed the target to what we shoot today to appease the PROs. Now there is a distinct separation between the PROs and the Joes. They made it harder to compete, and participation has been on a downward slide ever since through most of the country...

Inside out scoring is to indoor what the "New" target was to field...the beginning of the end...DOOM I say...


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

I really think they (we) are making this a lot harder than it is.

Plain and simple restrict arrow size. done...easy....what's so hard about that.

Is easton's sponsorship the only thing keeping the NFAA from making a ruling on this? Where is the NFAA's backbone? 

Leave the scoring as it is now.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

GATOR-EYE said:


> I really think they (we) are making this a lot harder than it is.
> 
> Plain and simple restrict arrow size. done...easy....what's so hard about that.
> They already did...or did they :noidea:
> ...


:nod: I sent in my vote and my director knows how I feel...


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## toyrunner (Jun 26, 2006)

I think they should start a whole new process... Every shooter up to the line with the equipment you are going to shoot for that day, no changes after this. Flip a coin, heads is traditional, tails is inside-out scoring. This should force everbody to shoot the correct/best shooting arrow for their set-up, no more fat versus skinny versus correct issues.


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## Big Cheesy (Jul 24, 2008)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Why change the rules when one gets to a shoot off? If touching the line was good enough to get you in a shoot off, I'd say stick with the same scoring system. The in-side-out for shoot offs is nothing more than a way to "get it over with" and I'm afraid "closest to the center" would leave way too much room for interpretation. I say, let em shoot it out using the same scoring system that got them there. Let em shoot till someone misses - might be from fatigue, but so be it.


Inside out would kill the Vegas face. I can see your agruement but shooters of that caliber will pound for days if there was not something to tighten the margin.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Big Cheesy said:


> Inside out would kill the Vegas face. I can see your agruement but shooters of that caliber *will pound for days* if there was not something to tighten the margin.


Hey, at least archery would probably make the evening news if a shoot off lasted for days. :wink:


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

toyrunner said:


> I think they should start a whole new process... Every shooter up to the line with the equipment you are going to shoot for that day, no changes after this. Flip a coin, heads is traditional, tails is inside-out scoring. This should force everbody to shoot the correct/best shooting arrow for their set-up, no more fat versus skinny versus correct issues.



All these alt. methods of scoring and how to count inside outs and right side in is just plain confusing!

K.I.S.S......................


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I must live a sheltered life. What the (expletive deleted) is "Inside Out Scoring"?

Dave


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Dave T said:


> I must live a sheltered life. What the (expletive deleted) is "Inside Out Scoring"?
> 
> Dave


Dave, as I'm sure you're aware, an arrow on or touching a line is given the higher score. In-side-out means that to get the higher score the arrow must be "inside" the line. HTH


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

GATOR-EYE said:


> All these alt. methods of scoring and how to count inside outs and right side in is just plain confusing!
> 
> K.I.S.S......................


:nod: just leave the scoring alone...its fine the way it is...no need to make things harder for the average Joe...as long as everybody is playing the same game it doesn't matter how you score it anyway...

Arrow diameter rules are more about preserving the integrity of the indoor game and the backstops the clubs use...

Lets face it, the super fat arrows are more of a perceived advantage anyway...how many of the big tournaments did Click (aka gillingham) win with his mega-shafts...

All the mega shafts really accomplish is:
1) Create controversy
2) Damage backstops
3) Pad the pockets of the guys making them...

If they were all shooting 2312s the same shooters would likely have won...


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## toyrunner (Jun 26, 2006)

What's a shopoter anyway... new archery term?


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

toyrunner said:


> What's a shopoter anyway... new archery term?


That thar' is a new fangled fat finger typing term...smart arse...

Really I'm just glad you didn't find the like 4 or 5 other typos in there:embara:...I think faster than I type...


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Hey, at least archery would probably make the evening news if a shoot off lasted for days. :wink:


Yeah...Just the phrase "pound for days" is enough to get attention  :zip:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

itchyfinger said:


> Yeah...Just the phrase "pound for days" is enough to get attention  :zip:


So in the end, it comes down to which archer has the longest staying power. :tongue:


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

*inside out scoring*

I think it would hurt way more than it would help. you already take 3 hours to shoot a tournament. how many more times will a line judge be called? when it comes right down to it I don't care what size arrows you shoot. 
In the bowhunter and freestlye divisions you have to shoot 58 59 or 60x to be in the hunt. if we go to inside out scoring I believe we will push more people away, I don't think the nfaa can afford that. I could see keeping the 5 ring the same size and make the x smaller, maybe the size of a vegas x. I don't think that would help but it is a thought. 
I am against inside out scoring for all tournaments until the shoot offs.


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

I agree with shoot em like they are now and let the shootoff be the same.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> So in the end, it comes down to which archer has the longest staying power. :tongue:


I can see a 50ft banner now! 



COME ONE COME ALL!!!!!! WITNESS THE POUND FEST!!!!!!!!!


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Keep the scoring as is. Only use inside out for tie breakers in a shoot off of the top dogs. 
Charlie


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Inside out scoring is We Todd Did......

Just set the arrow size at 9.3...2315 whatever you want to call it and let em eat.

Even going to inside out scoring isn't going to change anything......the guys that are pounding 300 55+ with fatties are still going to shoot the same scores...they may drop a few Xs but they aren't going to drop below 50. They may do what Jesse did and shoot X10s or another little shaft and still shoot 58-60.

All the guys that want to buy scores or think they have to have a 2512 or larger to shoot will soon realize that going to a smaller shaft some how made their scores go up.....:wink:


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Well I began shooting scoring what you now call "inside out". The simple issue was shot placement and the answer to all "biters" was a very simple if you wanted the higher score you should have put your damn shot there. It was a very hardcore "a miss is a miss" environment, but we learned shot placement down the the very core of our souls.

I personally obviously do not have an issue with it, but I fully understand the point of view of those who do. I honestly do not know if it would drive people away as it's an across the board evenly applied scenario. What I do have an issue with is inside out for X's only as that is pure and utter horsepoo. If a scoring system is to be applied it MUST be applicable to the entire target, this ain't Fizzbin were playing.:wink:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Everybody mentions the Average Joe when they talk about these things. However as it relates to the archery world the Average Joe does not shoot target archery. So if we want some Joes to start one should look at how to go about doing it 

From what I know about the average Joe most have one bow and maybe a 2nd for a back up. They shoot with multiple pin sights and various rest and fletch configurations. Most shoot with a short stabilizer screwed directly into the bow and finally they shoot with skinny carbon arrows …………… Basically the EXACT opposite of what they would need in order to feel competitive in the bow hunter division were you can have V bars and 27 series shafts to bust lines when you are close 

We expect these people to come play for "fun" and donate there time and money with a built inn competitive handicap OR we expect them to spend more money and purchase what they need to be competitive when for the most part it will take a few tournament seasons before they can be 

Either way your not going to grow the ranks. Get rid of the V-bars. , Limit the shaft size to soemthign smaller like a 22 series shaft Or go to I/O scoring and perhaps a "bow hunter face" with a slightly bigger x ring to accommodate the new scoring

The NFAA is the ONLY shooting sport were we invite a complete and all encompassing category of equipment classes and make them adhere to the same rules. Get soemthing for the Joes to compete in and Let the Freestyles shot it out with unlimited gear were a brush with a line with 1/2 wide shaft counts.

Go find a "joe" somebody that does not shoot now and ask them Would you rather shoot what you have and have to stay Inside the line to be competitive ?? Or would you rather Spend $100.00 on new Ammo , retune your bow ( for which many Joes PAY a shop to do ) and come out with us to be competitieve just brushing a line ??? What do you think the Joe is going to tell you ?? :wink:

And by the way/ What other shooting sport designs its ammo SPECIFICALLY for busting a line and getting a higher call. Sure shotguns but that is the whole point to that game


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

centerx said:


> Everybody mentions the Average Joe when they talk about these things. However as it relates to the archery world the Average Joe does not shoot target archery. So if we want some Joes to start one should look at how to go about doing it
> 
> From what I know about the average Joe most have one bow and maybe a 2nd for a back up. They shoot with multiple pin sights and various rest and fletch configurations. Most shoot with a short stabilizer screwed directly into the bow and finally they shoot with skinny carbon arrows …………… Basically the EXACT opposite of what they would need in order to feel competitive in the bow hunter division were you can have V bars and 27 series shafts to bust lines when you are close
> 
> ...


 And that in a nutshell is the whole point. You get my vote for post of the year. :thumb:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

centerx said:


> Everybody mentions the Average Joe when they talk about these things. However as it relates to the archery world the Average Joe does not shoot target archery. So if we want some Joes to start one should look at how to go about doing it
> 
> From what I know about the average Joe most have one bow and maybe a 2nd for a back up. They shoot with multiple pin sights and various rest and fletch configurations. Most shoot with a short stabilizer screwed directly into the bow and finally they shoot with skinny carbon arrows …………… Basically the EXACT opposite of what they would need in order to feel competitive in the bow hunter division were you can have V bars and 27 series shafts to bust lines when you are close
> 
> ...



The average Joe might start with a hunting setup. first time I meant this one average Joe like myself. he had camo Mathew and hunting arrows. shooting field just to try. Saw him and shot with him at a couple of shoots. the next time I saw him he had a New equipment, new arrows and new release. didn't take long to go from just trying it Joe , to full blown Freestyle trying to beat it. Last time I saw him was indoors shooting skinny arrows, I'll bet he's got the logs next time I see him. 

So the point is the rules as they are didn't deter him from jumping in with both feet. So why do they need to be changed.

as far as the big arrow thing anyone pin down how they came into existence?
at the better archers request, or did the manufacturer make them and say hey try these??? 

I know for a fact I never requested them nor would I even care if I couldn't use them. 2613 had been around for a time when I started with spots, so I got those as a beginner, and I still got 2613. 
Inside out scoring is something the Pros worry about, Not Joe's like me, If I got scored inside out, I don't think I would attend very many shoots if any at all. 

Maybe a Pro sized target and then a bigger Joe's size target for us armatures and an In between size for the semi pro working their way up.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

It is unlikely that inside out scoring will make it out of committee and to the floor for a vote.

The number of agenda items, of all kinds, that become law is between 10 and 15 percent of all submitted.

Most agenda items never make it to the floor and many more are simply voted down.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

What is the purpose for people wanting to go to inside out scoring?? Is it to bring down scores?? If that is the case, then why not go to inside edge scoring. It is uniform and effects EVERY shooter the same way. You've basically moved the scoring ring in 1/16" or so on every target. To go to inside out scoring would effect every shooter in a different way. You would essentially be moving the scoring rings the size of the arrow that a particular shooter uses. If you use 27 series arrows the scoring has been moved by 28/64", if you use 20 series arrows, 21/64 and so on. 

I also think that having 2 different faces for Joe vs. Pro would cause a bigger headache for the folks trying to put on the shoots. Making sure you have enough of each target and making sure that each shooter has the correct target would bugger things up a bit. Then what happens if someone shoots the wrong sized face?? Reshoot?? DQ?? Keep the face the same. It keeps things simple.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Spoon13 said:


> What is the purpose for people wanting to go to inside out scoring?? Is it to bring down scores?? If that is the case, then why not go to inside edge scoring. It is uniform and effects EVERY shooter the same way. You've basically moved the scoring ring in 1/16" or so on every target. To go to inside out scoring would effect every shooter in a different way. You would essentially be moving the scoring rings the size of the arrow that a particular shooter uses. If you use 27 series arrows the scoring has been moved by 28/64", if you use 20 series arrows, 21/64 and so on.
> 
> I also think that having 2 different faces for Joe vs. Pro would cause a bigger headache for the folks trying to put on the shoots. Making sure you have enough of each target and making sure that each shooter has the correct target would bugger things up a bit. Then what happens if someone shoots the wrong sized face?? Reshoot?? DQ?? Keep the face the same. It keeps things simple.



nobodys really complaining about outdoor stuff, skinny arrows rule. 
Indoors where the big arrows are, is where the complaint is. we could buy the target size that fits the skill level. Pros arrows skinny pros target small, cause they are pros. My arrows larger, my target larger, cause I suck.. 
don't make this hard it ain't.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Bees said:


> nobodys really complaining about outdoor stuff, skinny arrows rule.
> Indoors where the big arrows are, is where the complaint is. we could buy the target size that fits the skill level. Pros arrows skinny pros target small, cause they are pros. My arrows larger, my target larger, cause I suck..
> don't make this hard it ain't.


Ah hell, just put a wind machine 6 feet in front of the butts, see how many fat shafts show up then:wink:


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## hitek (Mar 12, 2007)

Leave the scoring as it is and get rid of the fat shafts, if you are that good you do not need these things to help you out


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Why change the rules when one gets to a shoot off? If touching the line was good enough to get you in a shoot off, I'd say stick with the same scoring system. The in-side-out for shoot offs is nothing more than a way to "get it over with" and I'm afraid "closest to the center" would leave way too much room for interpretation. I say, let em shoot it out using the same scoring system that got them there. Let em shoot till someone misses - might be from fatigue, but so be it.


I am new to this whole thing of indoor archery and last season was my first for 3-D archery. I have to agree with Lee. don't change the rules just to get it over with. Let the shooter that is conditioned the best win .The ones least prepared will fatigue and miss at some point. Just my opinion.


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Inside out scoring is We Todd Did......
> 
> Just set the arrow size at 9.3...2315 whatever you want to call it and let em eat.
> 
> ...



Well BH I think you've got it--!!!!!


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> I am NOT a fan of Inside Out scoring. I think it will ultimately hurt the sport more than help.
> 
> An alternate scoring idea I would like to throw to the masses is to make an arrow touch the higher scoring area inside the ring to get the higher score instead of punishing a shooter for touching the line.
> 
> Thoughts??


As you could do with an even larger shaft----???


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Ah hell, just put a wind machine 6 feet in front of the butts, see how many fat shafts show up then:wink:


This also would take care of the problem---

Sounds like the solution has been discovered

By offering really lg. pay 100-Gs for inside out 30X game ----the mind set of small shafts will be the best to use ---will become acceptable by the masses 

This is the most workable answer to the runaway shootgun archery that exists today and tomorrow UNLESS a carrot of acceptance is offered

I wish I had thought of it ----History will show it as a turning point if the shoot sponcers all join in
And the illusion of greatness can be maintained as is.
If not gone ----the problem should be much less in time


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## Hammer X (May 20, 2008)

Spoon13 said:


> Keep it civil and be willing to listen to what other have to say. We CAN agree to disagree when it gets right down to it.


It shouldn't matter to archers who shoot tournaments what the scoring system is or what size arrow you can shoot( because everyone can shoot the large diameter arrows). The top dogs will always be the top dogs because they shoot with the rules their given. You can make the X smaller or the arrow smaller and they still shoot for the center of the X. JOE is to worried about saying he shot 59 or 60x's then putting the time or effort in it takes to actually do so. I say don't worry about the rules, their the same for everyone. Just worry about trying to improve and who knows , maybe you'll be a top dog one day also.


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