# Where does all the money go????



## Bushkey (Mar 17, 2006)

I don't know but like I said. I ordered the most expensive tailor made high end limbs from Barnsdale Archery they had(imo of the best in the world). The limbs, shipping from the States and taxes and all, ended up R300.00 cheaper than Mathews limbs from Pretoria without shipping. Go figure:dontknow:


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

I would have prdered it then and there, but the bulk of the item means that they will only ship it to the continental US.

Any idea what the Barnsdales would cost if sourced through a local dealer?


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## urabus (May 22, 2006)

give norseman archery a try....derrick 0836612173...he's in 'toti
dont know if he's got any left.......but the last time i was there he had those single plano cases at a very good price.


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## Bushkey (Mar 17, 2006)

No James I don't have any idea. Didn't even bother to ask. 

I am with Gerhard on this one. Bows I will still buy here(don't know why cause back up sucks in any way), but I am going to try my best to import stuff like sights, arrows, releases, camo, broadheads etc for myself. If prices gets better I will buy here again. It is a rip off. 

Between Heidi and myself we have spent tens-of-thousands of Rands on bows and equipment locally, and we are not getting the best deals(except for the last PSE deal we made). If I have to look at all the bows and equipment I have at home between us: 8 High end bows, 8 High end sights, 8 high end arrow-rests, 8 high end triggers, arrows for each 3 field buts, 2 bow cases, 8 bags etc. then it gets worth shopping around.


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

I must admit to feeling as though I am bieng a fool, after deciding on my setup and having to make a final choice on a bow I will have to spend in the region of R 12 000 to R 13 000. I am beginning to wonder if I should look at importing but then again I need the local shop to help me set everything up. I am just begining to question spending all that money here. 

Ryan


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## compound-A7 (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi guys

Very easy. The dollar price is say $30. That is R210 to make the calc easy
Import duty on luguage(doesn't matter what it is) is 30%. That give you R63 on import duties.
VAT is 15.4% (its not 14%. They add 10% to the imported amount) That give you R52

In total, Already R325. 
THEN!!!! and here is where the whole thing goes bad for everyone. The biggest amount is freight. Try to ship that sucker for under R300. Even if they use sea freight.
I imported a Golfcase once. Hell, it was a wake-up call. Never again in my life will I do that. It cost me R3000 in the end. I did use airfreight, but hell, never again.
Just my 2c


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## RUDAMANS P.S.E (Nov 9, 2007)

Lets say u import a bowfrom the us. Ur warenty is held in the us , so if a limb brackes or the cam gets damaged ( never say never ) it then becomes a night mare to send the bow back and forth to get it fixed or try and get the claim done local they will charge u for the spares .
so do the math and take every posebility in to play and see if it is realy worth ur while . I sent a release to the us for a claim , 3 months later and R800 in shipping charges later i only reseved it back .
Alot of archers complain about service but not all the pro shops have a bad service some are on the ball and prices are fair .


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

Ryan - it is not the sum of money that concerns me - a $1000 bow will set us back in the region of R10k, but you still get backup and warranty on the bow if you buy from a reputable shop. 

However, if we were to pay *R35k *for the bow, that would make importing worthwhile. That is what I am trying to find out about, is where that extra money is going! These 350% markups on certain gear is simply not acceptable.


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

compound-A7 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Very easy. The dollar price is say $30. That is R210 to make the calc easy
> Import duty on luguage(doesn't matter what it is) is 30%. That give you R63 on import duties.
> ...


If the SA importers are using seafreaight for a whole consignment of goods, 200 or so cases would work out to a lot less than R300 each. The $29 is a _retail_ price, and our importers would surely get it at a better price than that.


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## 1400wannabe (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi James

I dont want to be the bearer of bad news... I have actually importing some stuff with containers before. a 40FT container will set you back anything from R80000 to R150 000 to get to Jhb (it all depends on from where and if they collect in the US and deliver in Jhb etc). Obviously if the port is on the West coast of the US, then they have to go through the Panama Canal, and that makes the difference in price.
I do not think you will get more than 300 of those bowcases in one of these container. Not sure, but you can probabaly work it out.

Im not sure what the prices are nowadays, but I can definately tell you that it will not be less than R200 per bowcase. 
Just phone a freight company and ask. They will gladly work our a quote for you.:wink:


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*I wish it was coming my way.....*

I am still waiting to recieve my first salary cheque in two years????Whats two years wages worth? This is what archery in the PMB area has cost me so far but money is not everything, but being in debt in this day and age is not pleasent either!

The truth of it is I think there are a select few making a lot of money and the rest of us do it for other reasons that most would'nt understand, so getting into it, would be futile.

It also boils down to the market that we are dealing with, it's just not as big as the States so no one can speak of "cheaper by the dozen"and yes the goods that are sold need to accommodate the hours of service that are provided to all often (most times in fact) free of charge, I must admit it's easier to help loyal customers with a cheerful heart than those that "use and abuse". We are very fortunate not to have this problem here with us.

I reckon if the average bow shop dropped its prices by half they would have the same customers buying the same stuff. They would just turn over half their usual turnover and be out of busness that much sooner.

Has any one done the math yet? How much would it cost to keep the average bow shops doors open? (Why must a bow shop owner hold down two jobs to have archery in his neighbourhood because if his shop was not there neither would the club be....NO club.. no achery for the next generation as it was for me.) Or are we all content just to whine on about the hight cost of something one buys once or twice a lifetime (Now we are not talking about the those of us that have this obsession with archery equipment like the Bushkey's (8 bows )and the Spatan's (9 bows) of the world its real hard for us yes:wink:.

I wish that was possible to maintain a reasonable standard of living while helping the sport of archery to grow in this country. This is what I love to do? Or will I have to relocate to where there is more opportunity in this field. My First choice as a 36 year old dude with a wife and two kids is to make it work right here in SA. WE SHALL SEE WON"T WE???????


Spatan:cocktail:


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## INGOZI (May 9, 2005)

James

Very true, the feeling I get with some archery stores is that they think we as the customer have no idea what the items cost in the States. I agree that any shop should make money, and those that say they dont are either bad businessman or lying. But they should also remember by trying to fool a customer is just going to drive them away, either to another retailer or to buying directly from States.

All the best

Engee


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## husky (Nov 12, 2007)

Matatazela said:


> If the SA importers are using seafreaight for a whole consignment of goods, 200 or so cases would work out to a lot less than R300 each. The $29 is a _retail_ price, and our importers would surely get it at a better price than that.


:zip: Most of the large importers exeople who owe 3-8 Bow shops Arn't just buying 1 Bow Their buying 50 bows dist to 5 shops, 10 000 arrows 50 000 nocks, 5000 field points, 50 releases 1,000,000 vaines,ect...........

4 months ago i surfed the net for my first bow, it also surprised me although US are big in sport every body must make a living. If you buy for more than 4 items your freight is free in the us, If your purchise is more $500 your shipment is free ANYWHERE! thats their reply on my E-mail.

Reason... They do have a distr in RSA they Ship the container to them and they'll overnight it to you via freight. Some how they get it right. Remeber they are not the factry its a shop!! Depends on shipment company.

2days later my budy purchest this B/B shake buy more than 5, and they'll send it free. He did so. 2 weeks ago IT ARRIVED!! only paid the amount for the protine shake.

I on the other hand had to buy my 1st bow local, for i did not have any knowledge about difrent styles, bows, sights, ect...

South Africa is getting diff to live in"EXPENSIVE", as we know. If we cann't live with our sallary, what should the bow shop owners do. 

Good luck hunting... Huss
n


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## ASG (Jun 25, 2007)

Don't forget about import duties! 
SARS can jack the price of imported goods considerably. 

COSATU want to prevent imports from taking away jobs but don't realise that we have a horrible shortage of archery goods manufacturers in S.A.
Who knows? Perhaps someday we'll be shooting *Bokslagter pyle* from a *Vinnige Fanie *instead of Goldtips from a Mathews or Bowtech?

A good tip for those wanting to buy from the U.S is to buy a bowcase and fill the thing with other goodies like arrow shafts, b/heads, sights, fletches, rangefinders etc.
Sure the import costs for using DHL are going to be expensive but when you add up what you'll be paying for everything here, it's a considerable saving, especially if you do it as a group.


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

spatan said:


> ...Or are we all content just to whine on about the hight cost of something one buys once or twice a lifetime ...


Make no mistake, I am whining, but with a larger purpose than merely complaining about one piece of gear. Someone, somewhere, is making a lot of money. Whether this is the transporter, the government or the middlemen, who knows??? That is what I am trying to get my head around. That, and the fact that 6 months ago when the dollar was whacking the Rand with a big stick, Plano cases were around the R600 mark... now, we have more Rand power and a higher price - *on the same product*!



spatan said:


> I wish that was possible to maintain a reasonable standard of living while helping the sport of archery to grow in this country.


Yep - me too, for the pro-shops. You really are the first point of contact for many people with the sport of archery. Without you, we would only have the internet to supply us, and as we all know, the internet is the worst place to shop if you are unsure about what you actually need. As a pro-shop, you are at the interface between customer and the sport. 

Archery is clearly is a viable proposition for those that are importing the gear that we all use. If it wasn't profitable for the importer, every archery shop would be ordering their own gear from the States. In some instances, it is not cost effective to order this way - like big, bulky or heavy items such as bow cases or other large items. 

The importer knows this and jacks the price of such items up to whatever they feel like charging, knowing full well that they will still sell. They get their money up-front from the bow shops, which sit with stock on their shelves for aeons before the stuff sells. The bowshop pays for the item, and then sits with all his capital tied up, paying interest on interest, over and above the rent. If it was a release or a broadhead that can fit into an enveloppe, and they charged 350% of the price that Cabelas sells the thing for, we would all be doing the internet shopping thing, because we can get the thing via USPS. 

Spatan has raised another issue here as well, and that is charging for service. We should all be paying for services that are not warranty related. If you buy a peep, take it home and install it. If you ask the pro-shop to do it for you, we should be prepared to part with a few extra bucks. 

They have bought a press, taken the time to learn to use it, and will take time out of their schedule to do the required work. In other fields, this seems to be the case so why do we expect the pro-shop to do it for free?

This is very black and white view. I knopw that there are greay areas, like where the seller should provide some service, for instance when you buy a dozen arrows and ask for them to be made up or cut to a certain length. Don't expect to take a handfull of shafts to his shop and have him cut them for free, though...


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## ASG (Jun 25, 2007)

[/QUOTE]
Spatan has raised another issue here as well, and that is charging for service. We should all be paying for services that are not warranty related. If you buy a peep, take it home and install it. If you ask the pro-shop to do it for you, we should be prepared to part with a few extra bucks. [/QUOTE]

I think that's an excellent idea! The pro shops can make more money for servicing and by selling bow presses and you as the customer might now get service from some of the tackle dealers or take your money elsewhere.
Service will improve when there's money to make or lose for the shop.:wink:


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

ASG said:


> I think that's an excellent idea! The pro shops can make more money for servicing and by selling bow presses and you as the customer might now get service from some of the tackle dealers or take your money elsewhere.
> Service will improve when there's money to make or lose for the shop.:wink:


Yaaaah, I thought this would be used against me. 

What I was really getting at is the constant adjustment of bows and installation of bits and pieces when the customer should actually be paying, and thus making a pro-shop more economically feasible. It is hard to draw a line and tell a guy that his 'loyalty points' are all used up because of umpteen adjustments on the bow he bought from your shop in 1992!!!

If you can do the adjustments and repairs yourself, then you would not be supporting the pro shop to a large extent anyway.

I'm sure you understand me less now... :embara:


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## ASG (Jun 25, 2007)

James,

I support your idea 100% I think it's a fantastic idea!

When the pro shop has a chance of losing money, we'll see service levels improve.


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*Defending myself again....*

Hi Matatazela,

Just to clarify my posistion......I never once said that the archery buisness was not able to turn a profit , I did say that I am not yet to able to make a living wage each month from the business at this stage because I felt the market was not substantial enough in KZN at presant. I see new people every other day and the sport is growing steadily. 

My living is derived from other more established businesses that have been in operation for much longer and with out them carrying the archery business, Black Hawk Archery could and will not survive, so before anyone starts to put words in my mouth and twist what I ve written to suit their on ends, I suggest that people read carefuly what I Write because I am telling it as it is for me. I don't see any other bow shops venturing a comment on this some what touchy subject so it can be layed to rest. I am not and never will be ashamed to say that I want to make a living out of the thing I love this happens to be archery and I work hard at it every day and I sinserly believe that this does and will continue to have tangible bennefits for our clientele...

I was only trying to shead some light on your question from our perspective in good faith. What people do with it is entirely up to them. I would be highly offended if it was suggested that I was a lousy or dishonest busnessmen. I really do hope the comments made earlier on this thread were not aimed at me again by people that I have never met.It is farely obvious that we all know what things cost abroad we just do not have the buying power of Cubelas and Basspro shops in the states ..... we all use the net daily and these prices are right there to see at a mere click of a key. This buying power I presume comes hand in hand with the size of market they deal with.

Talking about service....I put together a pre owned target bow for a client yesterday and promised that I would have his dozen arrows ready today by 2pm but due to me been alone in the shop dealing with "walkins" and the phone and directing the affairs of the other more profitable operations (that do pay my salary)....these arrows were not done in time for collection.... I ve just finished them now and want to deliver them to Rosseta. again not perfect but we do what we can....


Have a great weekend.Oh and the package arrived in tacked thanks a lot, Mate. 

Spatan:cocktail:


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

If I went to a bow shop for help, I certinaly would not object to the shop charging me a labour rate for the time spent tuning / fixing my bow, I would feel obliged to pay for such service. If you buy a Bicycle the shop will usualy include the fitment of acessories and tuning into the purchase price and will include the first service and tune up as part of the deal. perhaps the archery shops should set the same perameters so that we all know where we stand. So if you buy a new bow, the shop will mount the acessories and do the initial tune, once after a few hundred shots when the string has settled the shop will tweak the settings and after that the customer must pay. Take a rifle to a gunsmith to sort a problem and see what happens.

Ryan


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*If anyone needs help.....*

and they have a bow in their hand and it is within my power to do so I help him right away no questions asked. If its not merely a tweek that can be done in minutes and we have to take the bow in and Hennie is required, only then is a fee levied just as lawnmower shops or bicycle shop would do. It all depends on the situation. The cost of the goods in the shop make it possible to give out help and advice which does take up valuable time. 

You'll also find that I do not do "hard sell" tactics, people hopfully are given enough advice to be able to make their own informed desicion this is why we believe those that support us do not feel "riped off" they always leave with peace of mind and as I said before.. I sleep well at night knowing that I have added value to what ever is purchased from us....

Every client bar none is directed to A.T so they can have the entire achery world at their disposal as do you and I. Not everyone has the time or inclanation to sift through all the "millions" of pages of infomation and sift the good rom the bad. This is where we come in...


Take care everyone...... at this mad time of the year:darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:

Spatan:cocktail:

PS If one does not need our expertise and merely wants the item then you are welcome to place an order with us via the net (using our web-site)to enjoy reduced prices. These items will be drawn from stock and shipped directly to yourself opon reciept of the cash amount in our bank account.


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## Invictus (May 19, 2007)

Spatan 

If you keep us type of sevice I will buy a PSE,chew on this 31.5 draw lenght 70# May next year:wink:

I did not pm this for one reason you really went out of your way to listen to me as a person and my grevienses. May you grow


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

Invictus said:


> Spatan
> 
> If you keep us type of sevice I will buy a PSE,chew on this 31.5 draw lenght 70# May next year:wink:
> 
> I did not pm this for one reason you really went out of your way to listen to me as a person and my grevienses. May you grow


Thanks mate, may your arrows always find the bull no matter what bow you choose to shoot...:RockOn::RockOn:

Spatan:cocktail:


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## OutaAfrica (Mar 14, 2007)

Ons word lelik genaai in die land Enquaired about reloading stuff for a Lee Anniversary kit with out dies from one shop to another more than R 800 rand difference I thnk it is from the in portrer middle man and all others who wants to make a cut The actual price these people buy this kit for is only R800 and the highest price was R 1800 That is why these peoples businesses goes under I don't mind paying for a product but dont screw me.


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## bern47 (Sep 30, 2007)

*Ag Man!!*

Hey Spatan! I got a problem, this compound bow I got, its wheels on the ends just fell off and then the ends they curled over in the sun, hey! ag man don't worry, I just got an idea! if I take a string from one of my old recurve bows and stick the ends of these curled over pieces, eish! check it out! I got a recurve that shoots like a compound, man life is good, sommer 2 bows in one!! :angel::thumbs_up










have a great day!
Bernie.


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## sweryap (Aug 16, 2006)

Matatazela said:


> I got the latest price on a bowcase yesterday. I know the dealer isn't marking the thing up all that much, and I do not deny them that right to make profit. However, at around the R700 mark, that is equivalent to US$ 103. The Cabelas price is US$29 for exactly the same item. And that is a retail price, not the wholesale price!!!
> 
> For five snakes... where is the other $74 going??? Middlemen??? Into the importers pockets???
> 
> I understand 14% VAT, shipping, import duties and ad valorem tax, but come on, to charge me, the end user, 355% of the USA retail price??? That is extorsion!ukey:


I have no idea how much stuff costs to ship from Wisconson, USA to South Africa, but for some stuff if you guys have to pay crazy prices let me know...I live within a few miles of 3 major sporting goods stores and would be just fine sending you guys stuff using paypal at no profit after shipping costs. I don't know if this would save you money or not but let me know via PM if you have any interest.


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*Hey Bern47......*

We can see where your money went......???:tongue:To Oneida, I-need-a-other bow:wink. The colours sweet...... looks good enough to eat with toast and a coffee.

Take care Berns, see you later....:thumbs_up


Spatan:cocktail:


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## Bushhat (Sep 9, 2006)

*Hi Bernie.*

Hello Bernie.

Looks like we can make you our bow mechanic.:darkbeer:

A boer maak 'n plan.Any way your bow looks great,good colour pattern.

Happy shooting.

Bushhat:cocktail:


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

Sweet! Bloudraad and a hammer, and we can solve any problem!!!


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

sweryap said:


> I have no idea how much stuff costs to ship from Wisconson, USA to South Africa, but for some stuff if you guys have to pay crazy prices let me know...I live within a few miles of 3 major sporting goods stores and would be just fine sending you guys stuff using paypal at no profit after shipping costs. I don't know if this would save you money or not but let me know via PM if you have any interest.


That is a verry generous offer, Archers helping archers indeed.

Thank you 
Ryan


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## OutaAfrica (Mar 14, 2007)

sweryap said:


> I have no idea how much stuff costs to ship from Wisconson, USA to South Africa, but for some stuff if you guys have to pay crazy prices let me know...I live within a few miles of 3 major sporting goods stores and would be just fine sending you guys stuff using paypal at no profit after shipping costs. I don't know if this would save you money or not but let me know via PM if you have any interest.


Shot Thanks 
That is really a very nice offer I will surely make use of it in the nearby future 
Hendrik


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## omnivore (Feb 7, 2004)

*Great Looking Bow*

Wow Bernie that is a great looking bow but it looks much better in person. I know of a couple guys who have actually seen this riser. The finish is flawless. Thats definatley a one of a kind. Oneida's Forever Joe


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## bern47 (Sep 30, 2007)

*Oneida Bows!*

Thank you Joe! it is a pity that there are so few South Africans shooting these wonderful bows! and the best thing is! you don't have to pay an arm and a leg to own one,

Oneida's forever.
Bernie.


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*hey Bern47....*

I heard from a reliable source you can pay half a leg and an arm and own 3:wink:....


Spatan:cocktail:


P.S Weldone, Sir on you Silver at the last Kingspark (Durban)fita we shot together, pitty your "Wheel kept coming off" . I can't talk much I have also had so difficult situations to deal with "The cobblers shoes I'm afraid:embara:".


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## GrootWildJagter (Apr 24, 2008)

sweryap said:


> I have no idea how much stuff costs to ship from Wisconson, USA to South Africa, but for some stuff if you guys have to pay crazy prices let me know...I live within a few miles of 3 major sporting goods stores and would be just fine sending you guys stuff using paypal at no profit after shipping costs. I don't know if this would save you money or not but let me know via PM if you have any interest.


Thanks for the offer, it will really help a lot. If we buy from stores in the states, the charge us import duties, 40% on clothing, 30% on bags and then on top of that we need to pay the VAT(14%). But if someone sends it to you you dont need t pay any of that.

So that trully is a great offer, hopefully I can make use of that in the near future.

Thanks


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## krieger (Jan 24, 2007)

what would be really cool, is if we could get a info board setup between archers in SA and those US archers that are headed over for a hunt.I dont know the applicable regs, but perhaps throwing a few rest and an extra doz arrows in your bag, would help our SA brothers out a bit...


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*I went over to England in late 2007..*

Came back with quite a bit of stuff that we just could not get here period. well after tax 17% and the baggage over wieght chargers it worked out enoumously expensive. They wanted to charge me 250 pounds that is R3375.00, we only spent R8000 + R1360 tax on all the goods.We eventually settled after lots of "words"and on 100 pounds its probably more now?:sad: 

The exchange rate does not help the situation either asking a dude from the states to pay more to get his and your stuff over here is a little rich. I can also see the basis of unnessecary misunderstandings (there are almost always hassles when there is money involvedukey:its sad but its true there is very seldom nothing for nothing :secret:ever heard of the saying "theres no free lunch" well it tends to be just like that with no exception....)

We need to stop having a poverty mentality and start being pro active... let more people know about this awesome sport so there are more customers and more competitions more sponcers and more cash and prizes to win. A couple of weeks ago Black Hawk Archery and a new South Coast Archery Club held a fun shoot where At least 20 to 25 thousand rands worth of cash and prizes were won and given away. Now thats a bucket load of archery equipment not to mention the fun and frienships made. 
The more we can band together and make archery fun for everyone so that opportunities to take some stuff(archery related), vouchers and/or hard cash home after a great days shooting can be made possile at more regular intervals. The better things will be, the prices may start to even out. 

As long as there are only a few people loyal to there local pro shops the prices will remain high but we all know thats not the only reason there are high prices, Like any sporting goods as well as any other luxury items Cigarrettes, booze and besides the fact that the petrol price impacts all of this. There is the fact that quality engerneering and quality garanteed(some for life) products linked to fantastic service is an investment thats worth while.

To you Guys that spent your hard earned cash this month on Bows and accessories from Black hawk Archery Hilton and/or from Black hawk South Coast.....Enjoy and remember we are here to back you up 110%, You are always welcome to take advantage of us and the range to fine tune your skills. 

Its an awesome sport so from me it matters not from where we get out equipment but rather that we are using it correctly and adding to the great vibe that pervades this sport in thie country.

Stay strong, shoot straight everyone,


Spatan:cocktail:


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

Okay, guys. After reading the thread, the money goes to the oil rich gulf states. They get the money for the oil used to make most stuff and then to fly it wherever it needs to go. The balance goes to good people that design, make and sell the things! There - question answered!


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