# Win & Win products made in China?



## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

I was looking at a couple of videos Win&Win linked that had an archery retailer review their new risers (ATF-X and Radical Pro) and into 10 seconds into this video shows a box stating Radical Pro is made in China rather than in Korea. (https://youtu.be/S-wHX1cwO5w)
Now I knew Win&Win had a factory in China but was hoping their top of range products may be made in a Korean factory, reserving Chinese factory for WNS or midrange stuff, so a bit of a bummer and minus for future buying for myself anyway. I’m sure they still have good Quality control and all, just matter of personal feeling. I now assume their other top of line products are also made in China and perhaps Win&Win do not have a production line in Korea anymore. Can anyone who bought top of range riser or limbs from Win&Win over last few years confirm their product origin from labels?

I wonder what the situations are with other Korean manufacturers such as Fivics, MK Korea and resurrected Samick. I believe Fivics have a factory in China, haven’t heard of same for MK or Samick. Samick in particular seems to emphasise “ made in Korea” statement in product description. I suppose MK or Samick is the way to go if you want something known to be made in Korea, any clarification? I understand Hoyt is still made in USA too. May help explain generally higher prices for Hoyt and MK products...


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## Roy D (Nov 30, 2019)

I found out my entry level Stark limbs are made in a W&W facility in China - can add to the list.
Wonder how things work legally in Korea before something can be labelled made in Korea. Country to country this sort of legislation if any is in place has rules regarding how to label things depending on how much of the end product incl the packaging is made where.
What I heard of Samick's current state is that most of their stuff is made in China currently except for the highest end. 
Eying Samicks website it states búilt in Korea - non native english speaker here but built sounds more like assembled to me than made or manufactured.

I know there was a time when people read Made in Japan on anything they read falls apart inside of a year..
My wife made me chuckle a while ago when she saw a car she liked the looks of very much then saw the Kia branding on it lol..
Instantly had that family guy bit in my head of the kia advertisement being honest "Kia! too bad it's a Kia" XD

Someone I know deals with chinese OEMs and his tales are interesting to listen to. Basically you get what you pay for. 
If you want quality they can make the very highest. If you squeeze them they squeeze you right back..


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

W&W risers are all made in China in their own factory (not the OEM factories like a lot of the generic lower priced Chinese produced kit).
All of the top W&W branded limbs are made in Korea, all of the WNS /2nd tier stuff is made in the Chinese factory.

MK's stuff is all made in Korea. 

I'm not sure of the Fivics stuff, at one time they had MK making their limbs, but I don't know if that's still the case.


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

DarkMuppet said:


> W&W risers are all made in China in their own factory (not the OEM factories like a lot of the generic lower priced Chinese produced kit).
> All of the top W&W branded limbs are made in Korea, all of the WNS /2nd tier stuff is made in the Chinese factory.
> 
> MK's stuff is all made in Korea.
> ...


It’s good to hear about Win&Win limbs if you are correct, I’m more partial to MK as far as aluminium risers are concerned anyway. Wonder why they separate high end limb productions.

Roy I wonder where in Samick website you were looking at because all their informations on risers and limbs, including catalogue specify “made in Korea”. Of course I do not know what the laws in Korea mandate in terms of “made in Korea” label and theymay be partially constructed elsewhere and only last stage of assembly is in Korea but for what it’s worth that’s what Samick claims.


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## Roy D (Nov 30, 2019)

https://www.samickusaarchery.com/
"About Us
SAMICK, a Brand of Champions, built in Korea." A distributor site - so perhaps the phrasing there is less than accurate. Or it being a US site the phrasing they use fits the legalities..


If the quality is good for what you pay for it the where something is made is usually the last thing on my checklist unless I know the company outsources abusing its workers as well so to speak.. Personally I would rather live in Korea than China though..


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Roy D said:


> "About Us
> SAMICK, a Brand of Champions, built in Korea." A distributor site - so perhaps the phrasing there is less than accurate. Or it being a US site the phrasing they use fits the legalities..
> 
> 
> If the quality is good for what you pay for it the where something is made is usually the last thing on my checklist unless I know the company outsources abusing its workers as well so to speak.. Personally I would rather live in Korea than China though..


I was looking at Samick website’s description of their products and catalogue; because I’m newbie, can’t put the links up  The country of origin may not be the defining or primary factor but can be a tie breaking factor if everything is similar.


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## Roy D (Nov 30, 2019)

Friend of mine from Portugal showed me some shirts made there and sold here. The ones he bought for léss at home had all the patterns stitchings etc line up perfectly. The ones that got exported to this country and for sale here for móre were just a mess in comparison. The salesperson explained they found that they sold better here this way because they looked more handmade lol.

But this is wáy off topic now - sorry ^^ I would if it were so labelled when presented with a Samick product labelled manufactured in Korea vs the same stating manufactured in China probably end up flipping a coin and then ignoring that and going for the Korean made one as well =S


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

I just thought, so you think status of Win&Win producing their top of line limbs only in Korea and the rest including all risers in China (if DarkMuppet is correct) is a factor in quite a few Olympic level archer choosing Win&Win limbs combined with Hoyt riser? I know they probably try out multiple combinations each year but that fact about made in China may influence their choices in terms of shortlist and how they feel about the set-up. About a dozen archers in Rio including Ki Bobae who won ladies’ bronze were of Win&Win limbs + other company for riser combination...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As a general rule, considering globalization, all countries are presently qualifying a product as "made in" the country of final assembly, independently from origin of different parts. 
For instance, a significant part of Compound Bows "made in USA" by several manufactures,have their risers forged in Italy and then shipped by sea to USA for final milling , anodizind/painting and to become "made in USA" compound bows after assembly. 

Design, precision in assembly, QC at different stages define the quality of a product, independently from origin of its parts or from "made in" label. Otherwise, no one should trust any Apple I.phone as a quality item.


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## Roy D (Nov 30, 2019)

Hi Vittorio https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w Some people do not rate Apple's products as very hi Q ^^

Yes globalisation. The company my father worked for made precision and durable metal products. Factory in the US, later another in Ireland to serve the EU. 
The steel came in from US forge, all the work to it and qc was done in house and it went out the door labelled made in USA or made in Ireland. 
The rise of cheaper but much inferior products swamping their market eventually killed the company. 
Users switched to cheaper because it was cheaper regardless of how much less lasting it was for the most part. 
The choice my father's company made was to produce in a less costly fashion.. Cheaper steel, QC etc. This choice meant there was less difference to the end user between the lower end and my fathers' company's end. The choice the customers made became even easier.
The company went under and the chinese manufacturers for the most part raised their quality significantly to a level probably equalling the US an Irish made before and the prices today are probably nearer to what the company my father worked for charged before as well.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

@vittorio - In the US that’s not how it’s supposed to work, but I guess the claim isn’t policed so anything goes.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard#basic

“all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.”

“the steel in a product like a pipe or a wrench is a direct and significant input. Whether the steel in a pipe or wrench is imported would be a significant factor in evaluating whether the finished product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.“

So in the case of the riser made in Italy, the claim of “Made in the USA.” would be false. It should probably be “Made in the USA of domestic and imported parts”.


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## Roy D (Nov 30, 2019)

Yes kshet - lots and lots of legislation ^^ and different for different products I imagine too. I looked at one major USA archery manufacturer and they seem to negate this issue by not specifying it at all at least no where I can find in the little time I spent looking. Usually these things if a point of pride go front and center..


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

I have a TFT with NS-G limbs. The riser has a "made in china" sticker in the bottom limb pocket and the NS-G limbs have "made in korea" directly printed on the limb as part of the graphic. 

However, I do not feel being made in China is any reflection of quality. In the past decade or so, manufacturing standards in China have improved significantly. I have a family member who owns a bag company and hes told me how government regulations in China in recent years have mandated better code adherence in factories and stricter QC. His bags are some of the nicest I've ever seen I always bring one on USAT trips. My TFT riser is no different. Ive seen Hoyts, PSEs, and even MKs with manufacturing defects out of box, but my TFT is one of the few bows I've used that is flawless and couldn't be built any more solid.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

Win&Win Factory is in a city called BeiHai (near to Vietname), while samick used to made wooden bow in Qingdao which quite near to Korea.


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

rjbishop said:


> I have a TFT with NS-G limbs. The riser has a "made in china" sticker in the bottom limb pocket and the NS-G limbs have "made in korea" directly printed on the limb as part of the graphic.
> 
> However, I do not feel being made in China is any reflection of quality. In the past decade or so, manufacturing standards in China have improved significantly. I have a family member who owns a bag company and hes told me how government regulations in China in recent years have mandated better code adherence in factories and stricter QC. His bags are some of the nicest I've ever seen I always bring one on USAT trips. My TFT riser is no different. Ive seen Hoyts, PSEs, and even MKs with manufacturing defects out of box, but my TFT is one of the few bows I've used that is flawless and couldn't be built any more solid.


Yeah I reckon it’s more of a perception all minus, whether made in China products are up to scratch or inferior have to be considered case by case. Interesting NS-G limbs have “made in Korea” printed in limbs themselves; I suppose no chance of Win&Win letting non-Korean products going to market with that graphics. How do you find NS-G, famed graphene making much of a difference?


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

This Christmas i got WNS FC-100 limbs and its printed "Made in Korea" and quality control signature from korea. 

Maybe last controls done in Korea. Just like "Swiss made" certain % of labour and material must be native to put "made in" badge on the product" ?


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

The TradTech RC wood limbs I bought last year, (Made by W&W for TT), have a made in China sticker. I was a bit bugged by it. The Galaxy limbs that I had before those were about half the money were made in Korea.

All things considered, the made in China label is my only gripe about the TT limbs. I'm still gonna use 'em.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

With textiles, if 50% of the manufacture of the product is in the USA, then it can be labeled made in USA. 

All bandana fabric is made overseas because there are no weaving factories in the USA. But you can import Chinese woven fabric. Print cut and hem it here in the states and label it made in USA. Never having to disclose the fabric was made in another country.

Manufacture in China or other countries in regards to quality is mostly up to the manufacturer and how much you want to pay for that quality. Many choose a cheap price manufactured product which ends up being low quality. 


Chris


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

That’s simply not true. 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...gh-labeling-requirements-under-textile#unqual


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> That’s simply not true.
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...gh-labeling-requirements-under-textile#unqual


not to derail the thread, 

sorry to tell you, but you are not correct. You are using the wrong portion of that webpage. 

Unqualified “Made in U.S.A.” labels
If a U.S. manufacturer uses imported greige goods that are dyed, printed and finished in the U.S., for example, they may not be labeled “Made in U.S.A.” *without qualification*.

*Note: In determining a product’s country of origin, you don’t have to consider the origin of parts of the product exempt from content disclosure, like such as zippers or buttons*.



For USA labeling, all you are required to label is Manufacturer RN, fabric content and country of manufacture. The fabric is considered a raw part and has a qualification as such.


I happen to be one of only 3 bandana manufacturers in the USA, and one of the largest. I manufacture more than a million bandanas a year. I manufacture in China, India and Turkey. Everyone else in the USA is an importer outside of the 3 manufacturers. 

Most of the wholesale you find on various websites come from me or another competitor. They offer made in USA labeled bandanas that are in fact printed in South Carolina on imported Chinese fabric. In fact, there are only two print mills left in the USA that even print bandana fabric. If those two go, there will be no manufacture in the USA and it will all be imported. I am extremely well versed in the law and labeling. Trust me, i manufacture the only certified organic cotton bandana that there is. 

I have manufactured for Ralph Lauren, Walmart, Isaac Mizrachi, Grand Theft Auto, Stetson, NASCAR, Disney, Sony and many many others. 

In Archery you may be an expert, but in textiles and bandana manufacturing/ labeling, I'm sorry, i have you there. 

Remember when the guy wanted to argue about arrows with you? Its now reversed. 


Chris


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Timevoid said:


> This Christmas i got WNS FC-100 limbs and its printed "Made in Korea" and quality control signature from korea.
> 
> Maybe last controls done in Korea. Just like "Swiss made" certain % of labour and material must be native to put "made in" badge on the product" ?


Interesting that Fc-100 is made in Korea, would have thought as WNS product would have been considered by Win&Win as intermediate product. Though I have to say never figured their rationale for labelling FC100 as WNS instead of mainnWin&Win brand given its price and quality. I guess all Win&Win limbs (rather than WNS) from Winex up are made in Korea then?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> In Archery you may be an expert, but in textiles and bandana manufacturing/ labeling, I'm sorry, i have you there.
> 
> Remember when the guy wanted to argue about arrows with you? Its now reversed.
> 
> ...


Well played!


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> Interesting that Fc-100 is made in Korea, would have thought as WNS product would have been considered by Win&Win as intermediate product. Though I have to say never figured their rationale for labelling FC100 as WNS instead of mainnWin&Win brand given its price and quality. I guess all Win&Win limbs (rather than WNS) from Winex up are made in Korea then?


It says China on the box. And made by win&win on the limb.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

My New mxt gw limbs say made in Korea


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

*Made in Korea*

Limb and box say made in Korea


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

bobnikon said:


> Well played!


Don't be ridiculous. We all know gt is an expert at everything. Anyone who uses latin expressions is beyond question. 

But back on topic...

Made in China is an issue for me when it's poorly made. And in my experience, most of the items I've owned that were made in China were in fact, poorly made. There are always exceptions though, and those items I have used without reservation. 

I do know that the Chinese have yet to produce an optic (binocular or rifle scope) that I cannot tell was made in China. My eyes can spot a MIC optic every time vs. a made in Japan or Europe optic. But eventually the day will come when even that is no longer true.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I've owned both high end made in China by win win and high end Hoyt...I never have to worry about fit and finish as well as durability with win win...I can't say the same for Hoyt...or even uukhas. The finish has always been in question for me with both of those. The bottom line is win win quality control even being made in China is well above the quality control at Hoyt. That has been my experience.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

There were Hoyt look a like made in China too..


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Those look like pretty good copies...faktor with veratune plates and gmx. I'll take a new gmx but are they machined or cheap casting


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

stick monkey said:


> Those look like pretty good copies...faktor with veratune plates and gmx. I'll take a new gmx but are they machined or cheap casting


Found these photos in some Chinese Forum 2 years ago. not sure if they were machined or casting. but low volume CNC is not that expansive this days


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Don't be ridiculous. We all know gt is an expert at everything. Anyone who uses latin expressions is beyond question.
> 
> But back on topic...
> 
> ...


This is similar to my "stereotypical" concerns on "Made in China" products. Because of previous and current stories of poor quality control for their products, Chinese manufacturers and others who manufacture their products in China do have to contend with concerns (real or not) about their quality control. Part of rite of passage for emerging/developing economy; Japan went through that 100 years ago, Korea went through that 30 years ago, and in time and effort China may be able to shed it. Until then this perception about inferior quality for "made in China" products gives manufacturers like Hoyt and MK excuses for charging premium for domestically manufactured products, for what it's worth.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> This is similar to my "stereotypical" concerns on "Made in China" products. Because of previous and current stories of poor quality control for their products, Chinese manufacturers and others who manufacture their products in China do have to contend with concerns (real or not) about their quality control. Part of rite of passage for emerging/developing economy; Japan went through that 100 years ago, Korea went through that 30 years ago, and in time and effort China may be able to shed it. Until then this perception about inferior quality for "made in China" products gives manufacturers like Hoyt and MK excuses for charging premium for domestically manufactured products, for what it's worth.


Very true.

But first, a nation has to make a commitment to quality. Japan did that. Korea and the Phillipines (at least for optics) eventually did that too. I have yet to see anything from China that tells me they are committed to quality. That's just being honest. I call it like I see it and I don't let other people's opinions influence my own. I'm more of a "see it with my own eyes" kind of guy. And unfortunately, what I've seen with my own eyes out of China, is just not as good (yet) as Japan or Korea.

They could start with threads that don't strip at the slightest amount of torque. That would be a great first step. LOL I have lost track of how many MIC screws I've had to replace, and things I've had to drill and tap or repair with a helicoil.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm sure win win has the ultimate hand in quality control...the fact that it's made in China is probably just cheap labor. A couple years ago people said graphene could not be used cause it was too expensive but obviously it's been done and maybe able to offset costs with the difference in the labor prices. Even still I have never been subject to question the quality of the products made for win win.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I don't know if the new win win trad tech stuff is made in China or not??? But... they have a huge following and I have never read or heard of any complaints or concerns... I would guess that the lower end black max were made in China.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Almost everything is made in a foreign country. Even things marked as made in the USA might not be totally made in the USA. I'm not understanding the point of the concerns. 
Nick


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

stick monkey said:


> I don't know if the new win win trad tech stuff is made in China or not??? But... they have a huge following and I have never read or heard of any complaints or concerns... I would guess that the lower end black max were made in China.


My RC Woods, purchased april or may 2019, were made in China. I wouldn't call those lower end


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Mike Lawless said:


> My RC Woods, purchased april or may 2019, were made in China. I wouldn't call those lower end


So do you have any concerns with your limbs... I am guessing no.


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Nick728 said:


> Almost everything is made in a foreign country. Even things marked as made in the USA might not be totally made in the USA. I'm not understanding the point of the concerns.
> Nick


Most developed countries have strict legal codes about what needs to be done to call a product “made in USA/Japan/wherever” which means you can be assured significant part of work for manufacturing has been done domestically, with hopefully implied assurance about quality. It’s not exact science but a factor worth considering for some people (including me) I suppose.


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## RAzZin (May 7, 2019)

My W&W riser, MY 2019 also had that made in China sticker. Excellent quality though, so I just don't care )


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

stick monkey said:


> So do you have any concerns with your limbs... I am guessing no.


I don't. They are very nice limbs. I was just very surprised that the "Made in China" label was on a limbs at that price point. Especially considering the Galaxy Gold Star limbs that I replaced were made in Korea and $200 less money.

My entire life, I've been a "Made in 'Merica" kind of person. I also like European made stuff. I will go out of my way and spend more money to get it too. It's getting harder and harder to stick to those principles. Above all, quality matters most. 

However, in this day and age, it is a global economy. Some things we buy just aren't made in America or Europe. My "British" motorcycle is made in Thailand. My US made other motorcyle has a bunch of chinese made stuff in it, as well as stuff from all over the globe. My European drag race car (VW) doesn't have many parts made in Germany that are bought new. Many are from China, Brazil, and of course, many of the aftermarket hardware is made in the US. 

So, bottom line, having Chinese made hardware inside the drag race motor doesn't keep me from racing it. Just as Chinese made limbs won't keep me from shooting.
Although I'm still surprised they are made in China, the limbs are a quality product. So I just suck it up and shoot with 'em. Most of the time, I don't even think about it. Only when the topic comes up for discussion.

Besides, they are a far better limb than I am a shooter!


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## akujowo (Jun 25, 2021)

Win&win already have good reputation and for sure they try all their best to keep it up. made in china... is just a label but I belief, the quality still follows win&win through their strict QC.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

There are three types of China manufacturing (that I am aware of). The first is the Chinese own it and build it and most often times copy a product that is successful. These products one should stay away from. You just never know what you will be getting, sometimes good and often times bad. These companies are still learning how to be an international quality company. They may change a part just because it is cheaper and that particular part fails miserably. Too bad for the consumer.... The second manufacturing is essentially a company partners with the original manufacturer and they adhere to the strict requirements laid out by the original manufacturer and usually that same company will oversee how the parts are being made and assembled. Think Apple products. The third is one where a foreign company (such as W&W) leases land, builds their own manufacturing facility and uses Chinese labor. One of the interesting things about W&W is that most of the supervisors are Korean. Some are direct from South Korea from W&W and others are ex-patriots who lived in North Korea and slipped over the border during the Korean war conflict. Once the border was shut down, these North Koreans lived in China and learned the Chinese culture plus they still understood their own culture. These people have been invaluable to W&W. They were able to understand what a Korean Manufacturing company wanted and how to relay that information to the Chinese laborers. The quality speaks for itself since it has been the number one company in recurve archery for several years now. Mr. Park is a fanatic when it comes to quality. He doesn't always end up with perfection, but he continues to try.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The second is how i manufacture in China. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

akujowo said:


> Win&win already have good reputation and for sure they try all their best to keep it up. made in china... is just a label but I belief, the quality still follows win&win through their strict QC.


I'm sorry but this is what everyone says. 

I've been an optics consumer for decades. I saw what happened to the quality of optics when they moved from Japan to China, within the same company that always promised their MIC products would be made to their standards with their QC. And you can always tell the difference between MIJ and MIC optics.

Personally I have an issue with moving production to China for anything I buy. I'd challenge anyone to try and convince me why sending money to China is a good idea.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

I have been importing hundred of thousands of electronic consumer products from China in the years, and still, I am, and the correct answer is that you get what you pay for. When you talk about hundreds of thousands pcs, you should talk about AQL level you impose to the maker, and of course, you check before shipment. Not a matter to discuss here, but as a simple example, average electronic items are supplied at AQL 1.0/4.0 , which means 1% major defects and 4% minor (not real percentages, just referred to sampled quantities).
Sony was known in the old years to be able to grant 0/1.0 on all their products, but in the 90's average from China OEM was 2.5/6.0 (if checked). 
Going from 1.0/4.0 to 0.5/2.5 may mean to increase cost up to 50%, no meaning in commercial terms, so no one pays for this.
Sampling QC only works for big numbers, so is not applicable to Archery products as production lots are very small and in any case there is no culture for QC in terms of iSO 9001, no tto mention the fact that there is no real standard to check in terms of features and tolerancies. 
At the end, even checking 100% all main features and tolerances in risers, you will never get zero defects percentage so some companies think there is no need in checking some difficult tolerances. This is well known in the industry. But, for sure, you will get at least 100 percent of compliance to your owns standard. To make an example, we check 100% our risers with 0.1 mm maximum error on twisting using our well known twist checking tool. But I have checked many risers of different brands going up to 0.4 mm or more with no complaints from final buyers as the majority can't see any difference in practical use.
So, again, you get what you pay for, and if you can't see any difference, only means that you don't need a better quality than the one you have paid for. Nothing to do with the country of origin.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> I'm sorry but this is what everyone says.
> 
> I've been an optics consumer for decades. I saw what happened to the quality of optics when they moved from Japan to China, within the same company that always promised their MIC products would be made to their standards with their QC. And you can always tell the difference between MIJ and MIC optics.
> 
> Personally I have an issue with moving production to China for anything I buy. I'd challenge anyone to try and convince me why *sending money to China is a good idea*.


I didn't realize you were racist, that's disappointing hearing those words out of your mouth.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Roof_Korean said:


> I didn't realize you were racist, that's disappointing hearing those words out of your mouth.


I think you have nations and races confused troll.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> I think you have nations and races confused troll.


Then please, explain what you meant by sending money to China being a bad idea.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Roof_Korean said:


> Then please, explain what you meant by sending money to China being a bad idea.


Why would anyone want to support the economy of a country that unleashed a global pandemic, and then attempted to cover it up, slowing the progress of researchers trying to combat the virus, leading to the deaths of millions of people around the world? Or a country that imprisons people in slave labor camps because of their religious beliefs? I'm sure the majority of Chinese people that make up the country are great, but the communist government in place, not so much. It obviously had to be said.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Why would anyone want to support the economy of a country that unleashed a global pandemic, and then attempted to cover it up, slowing the progress of researchers trying to combat the virus, leading to the deaths of millions of people around the world? Or a country that imprisons people in slave labor camps because of their religious beliefs? I'm sure the majority of Chinese people that make up the country are great, but the communist government in place, not so much. It obviously had to be said.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You literally just said it yourself. The people of China have nothing to do with what the PRC does. Does the world hold American citizens responsible for bombing middle eastern civilians with drones? How about the internment of Japanese during ww2? These are government actions and have nothing to do with the people living in the country. The anti Chinese sentiment I see in these circles is disgusting, and is racially motivated. Chinese citizens are people just like you or I, capable of being excellent craftsman and people of good morals.
There are a lot of uneducated people on this forum that are blatantly racist, I could care less about the hate they spew. I would expect this stuff in the trad and compound forums but I guess I falsely hoped that FITA/recurve target people are a little more world conscious and mindful of what they say. As I said, dissapointing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Roof_Korean said:


> You literally just said it yourself. The people of China have nothing to do with what the PRC does. Does the world hold American citizens responsible for bombing middle eastern civilians with drones? How about the internment of Japanese during ww2? These are government actions and have nothing to do with the people living in the country. The anti Chinese sentiment I see in these circles is disgusting, and is racially motivated. Chinese citizens are people just like you or I, capable of being excellent craftsman and people of good morals.
> There are a lot of uneducated people on this forum that are blatantly racist, I could care less about the hate they spew. I would expect this stuff in the trad and compound forums but I guess I falsely hoped that FITA/recurve target people are a little more world conscious and mindful of what they say. As I said, dissapointing.


If you think for a moment that I'm "blatantly racist" you have absolutely no fking clue about me. 

The FITA community is as diverse in thought as the rest of the U.S. - sorry if you find that disappointing. What the FITA community is not however, is very ethnically or racially diverse and here in the U.S. we have a lot of work to do to be more inclusive in our sport - especially Olympic recurve. 

And, you didn't answer my question. Tell us how sending our money to China is a good thing. We'll wait for your world conscious, mindful reply.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Roof_Korean said:


> I would expect this stuff in the trad and compound forums


Sounds like a racist remark.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arcus said:


> Sounds like a racist remark.


By his own standards, it clearly is.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

Let's face it, the reason companies are moving their manufacturing to China or other Eastern countries is to cut manufacturing cost. Because labor cost are lower at those countries versus their Western counterparts. It's about the money, that's all there is to it.

Based on my own experience, archery product manufactured in China are hit and miss, quality wise... some are good, some are junk. Depend on how stringent the QC process were at the time of manufacture and the person who did the QC. Which depends on the company and their QC practice. Some companies trust the Chinese QC at the factory, some companies has their own QC people stationed at the factory. It all depends. 

All the WNS limbs I have are made in China, they all shoot fine with no blemishes in finish. 

My advice? Buy it from a reputable source that will take care of you when the product you got fails. Because if the product fails after its first use, you at least have some recourse in getting it exchanged or replaced.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Why would anyone want to support the economy of a country that unleashed a global pandemic, and then attempted to cover it up, slowing the progress of researchers trying to combat the virus, leading to the deaths of millions of people around the world? Or a country that imprisons people in slave labor camps because of their religious beliefs? I'm sure the majority of Chinese people that make up the country are great, but the communist government in place, not so much. It obviously had to be said.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ahhhh you do realize the ipad you sent your post from was made in China and they did not unleash the pandemic it was not done with any purpose-- or if you have legal proof of that please let some authority know.... they await you.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> If you think for a moment that I'm "blatantly racist" you have absolutely no fking clue about me.
> 
> The FITA community is as diverse in thought as the rest of the U.S. - sorry if you find that disappointing. What the FITA community is not however, is very ethnically or racially diverse and here in the U.S. we have a lot of work to do to be more inclusive in our sport - especially Olympic recurve.
> 
> And, you didn't answer my question. Tell us how sending our money to China is a good thing. We'll wait for your world conscious, mindful reply.


I already did, as I said before the people of China are capable of being excellent craftsman, I have several bows from Alibow that are excellently made. That is the only reason that matters, these are bows, not rockets people. Any other reason is rooted in racial descrimination, while I know that it is popular especially in white circles to be racist towards Asians, that does not make it morally correct. While China is somewhat diverse (nowhere near America or Europe's diversity) when you were speaking of the Chinese you clearly meant those of east Asian descent, you were not speaking about Uighur Muslims.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

Boomer2094 said:


> Let's face it, the reason companies are moving their manufacturing to China or other Eastern countries is to cut manufacturing cost. Because labor cost are lower at those countries versus their Western counterparts. It's about the money, that's all there is to it.
> 
> Based on my own experience, archery product manufactured in China are hit and miss, quality wise... some are good, some are junk. Depend on how stringent the QC process were at the time of manufacture and the person who did the QC. Which depends on the company and their QC practice. Some companies trust the Chinese QC at the factory, some companies has their own QC people stationed at the factory. It all depends.
> 
> ...


Meanwhile you have Bear, an American company, putting out recurves with blemishes and even defects that lead to failure.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

...Were those Bear recurves made in China? I'm almost willing to bet that they are, especially their inexpensive bows.

In this age, the name on the product means very little... read the tag on the product, It will tell you where it is made.

Again, Based on my experience, product MADE in China are hit and miss, quality wise. All depends on how well the product were QC'ed before they were released.

..And yes, that includes electronics and computer stuff as well.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Boomer2094 said:


> ...Were those Bear recurves made in China? I'm almost willing to bet that they are, especially their inexpensive bows.
> 
> In this age, the name on the product means very little... read the tag on the product, It will tell you where it is made.
> 
> ...


Somehow it's now racist to question quality control. Didn't you get the memo?


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Somehow it's now racist to question quality control. Didn't you get the memo?


Man, I didn't, I wonder if I accidentally tossed it.. My bad.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Roof_Korean said:


> I already did, as I said before the people of China are capable of being excellent craftsman, I have several bows from Alibow that are excellently made. That is the only reason that matters, these are bows, not rockets people. Any other reason is rooted in racial descrimination, while I know that it is popular especially in white circles to be racist towards Asians, that does not make it morally correct. While China is somewhat diverse (nowhere near America or Europe's diversity) when you were speaking of the Chinese you clearly meant those of east Asian descent, you were not speaking about Uighur Muslims.


Okay, casting your obvious personal issues and slanderous accusations aside for a moment...

Suppose we concede that the people in China are *capable* of being excellent craftsmen. My challenge was for you or anyone else to explain to me why you think sending money to China is a good idea versus, say, South Korea or Japan, or Italy or just keeping it here in U.S..


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, casting your obvious personal issues and slanderous accusations aside for a moment...
> 
> Suppose we concede that the people in China are *capable* of being excellent craftsmen. My challenge was for you or anyone else to explain to me why you think sending money to China is a good idea versus, say, South Korea or Japan, or Italy or just keeping it here in U.S..


i would love to move my manufacturing somewhere else from China, like South Korea. Unfortunately for my product, the only countries with factories are China, Pakistan, Turkey and India. 

Out of those choices, China is the best option. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> i would love to move my manufacturing somewhere else from China, like South Korea. Unfortunately for my product, the only countries with factories are China, Pakistan, Turkey and India.
> 
> Out of those choices, China is the best option.
> 
> Chris


I'm sure plenty of folks would be interested in hearing why you feel that way.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> i would love to move my manufacturing somewhere else from China, like South Korea. Unfortunately for my product, the only countries with factories are China, Pakistan, Turkey and India.
> 
> Out of those choices, China is the best option.
> 
> Chris












Just a bit of humor, from a recent text I received.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Roof_Korean said:


> I know that it is popular especially in white circles to be racist towards Asians,


Another racist remark.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arcus said:


> Another racist remark.


Methinks they could be an authority on the topic


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

Boomer2094 said:


> ...Were those Bear recurves made in China? I'm almost willing to bet that they are, especially their inexpensive bows.
> 
> In this age, the name on the product means very little... read the tag on the product, It will tell you where it is made.
> 
> ...


I dont know about compounds but their laminated wood/fibreglass bows are made in the US, by americans.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, casting your obvious personal issues and slanderous accusations aside for a moment...
> 
> Suppose we concede that the people in China are *capable* of being excellent craftsmen. My challenge was for you or anyone else to explain to me why you think sending money to China is a good idea versus, say, South Korea or Japan, or Italy or just keeping it here in U.S..


Why not? What is so different about China and Chinese people from Koreans or Japan or Italy? I asked you a question yesterday and you still haven't answered it yet. Instead you have been jabbering with your passive-aggressive comments. Whos the troll now?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Roof_Korean said:


> Why not? What is so different about China and Chinese people from Koreans or Japan or Italy? I asked you a question yesterday and you still haven't answered it yet. Instead you have been jabbering with your passive-aggressive comments. Whos the troll now?


No. Sorry. That wasn't the question. The question was why. You don't get to answer it with a question.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

If we had a Nazi Germany in the world today, and I decided to not purchase products made in Nazi Germany, I fail to see how that would be racist.

Those of us of a certain age remember an era in which "Made in Japan" was a sign of inferior products. And that was not racism.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arcus said:


> If we had a Nazi Germany in the world today, and I decided to not purchase products made in Nazi Germany, I fail to see how that would be racist.
> 
> Those of us of a certain age remember an era in which "Made in Japan" was a sign of inferior products. And that was not racism.


Arcus, it's all he's got. Don't steal it from him. LOL


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Roof_Korean said:


> You literally just said it yourself. The people of China have nothing to do with what the PRC does. Does the world hold American citizens responsible for bombing middle eastern civilians with drones? How about the internment of Japanese during ww2? These are government actions and have nothing to do with the people living in the country. The anti Chinese sentiment I see in these circles is disgusting, and is racially motivated. Chinese citizens are people just like you or I, capable of being excellent craftsman and people of good morals.
> There are a lot of uneducated people on this forum that are blatantly racist, I could care less about the hate they spew. I would expect this stuff in the trad and compound forums but I guess I falsely hoped that FITA/recurve target people are a little more world conscious and mindful of what they say. As I said, dissapointing.


When I buy something made in China, how much of my American dollars go to fund the communist government? Does anyone actually know? I'm not interested in financially supporting the reds any more than I have to. My logic has nothing to do with race. Sorry to disappoint you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

woof156 said:


> Ahhhh you do realize the ipad you sent your post from was made in China and they did not unleash the pandemic it was not done with any purpose-- or if you have legal proof of that please let some authority know.... they await you.


This old iPad was given to me, I would not have purchased it. I stopped buying apple products the moment I found out they were intentionally throttling my iPhone 4 and ruining the battery. My 5 year old Samsung phone may have been made in China, I'm not sure. I'm definitely more conscious about where products come from as of late. I have been trying to buy items made in America or other free countries. China does such a large share of the worlds manufacturing, it is not always possible or affordable to avoid the made in China label.

The virus escaped from a lab in China, and the Chinese government withheld information in an attempt to cover it up. The evidence is long gone, obviously. If our current milquetoast administration won't stand up to China, IMO the American people need to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tisbatman (Jul 4, 2019)

I don´t think limbwalker is racist, and I think he was clearly talking about his experience with chinese products of disappointing quality.
I also can understand why someone of asian descent could be offended by a comment like
"I would never send money to china". 
Just have a little understanding for each other and make the world a litlle better  And no jokes about baguettes please


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

If you can’t understand the difference between socio-political viewpoints and racism there really is no point in having the conversation. People have a right to choose where their money goes or does not go - whether that is to not line Jeff Bezos’ pockets or pushing money to countries _that in their opinion_ do not match their political or social values. While those opinions can be based on racism there are an awful lot of other influences. For example there are many in Europe who avoid US based products - it’s not racism that drives their beliefs It’s values. So as we say in Scotland… you’re being a bampot.

Many people are also seeing what offshoring does to local companies, local ecomonies and communities while lining the pockets or the rich and elite. So that is also another perfectly justifiable opinion.

Not part of a dying breed. This stuff is going to become even more prevalent unless the rich stop screwing the poor and unless global governments start to act in the benefit of the many instead of the few.

Full-stop

Stretch


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> This old iPad was given to me, I would not have purchased it. I stopped buying apple products the moment I found out they were intentionally throttling my iPhone 4 and ruining the battery. My 5 year old Samsung phone may have been made in China, I'm not sure. I'm definitely more conscious about where products come from as of late. I have been trying to buy items made in America or other free countries. China does such a large share of the worlds manufacturing, it is not always possible or affordable to avoid the made in China label.
> 
> The virus escaped from a lab in China, and the Chinese government withheld information in an attempt to cover it up. The evidence is long gone, obviously. If our current milquetoast administration won't stand up to China, IMO the American people need to.
> 
> ...


Well, you have zero proof that the virus originated in a lab in China but otherwise I agree with you.



UK_Stretch said:


> *If you can’t understand the difference between socio-political viewpoints and racism there really is no point in having the conversation.* People have a right to choose where their money goes or does not go - whether that is to not line Jeff Bezos’ pockets or pushing money to countries _that in their opinion_ do not match their political or social values. While those opinions can be based on racism there are an awful lot of other influences. For example there are many in Europe who avoid US based products - it’s not racism that drives their beliefs It’s values. So as we say in Scotland… you’re being a bampot.
> 
> Many people are also seeing what offshoring does to local companies, local ecomonies and communities while lining the pockets or the rich and elite. So that is also another perfectly justifiable opinion.
> 
> ...


This.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Holy hell that got out of hand.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Holy hell that got out of hand.


Usually does when a troll shows up.

The politics of China, especially now, are extremely controversial. Nobody should be surprised that folks have strong opinions on the matter. Probably doesn't have any place on the FITA forum. There are other places where those things can be discussed.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Holy hell that got out of hand.


Yeah, it sure did... To certain people, everything is racist.

I didn't know Win & Win has their own factory in China... that would prolly explain why their MIC products are good quality. I would think they would be really good in their QC, consider the reputation they had in archery world.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

[QUOTE="Roof_Korean, post: 1113807228, member: 902739" you pathetic old man
[/QUOTE]
Now, that's funny.
Ad hominem attack is a sure sign that one has lost the argument.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> ="Roof_Korean, post: 1113807228, member: 902739" you pathetic old man


How dare he call you old. LOL


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> The virus escaped from a lab in China, and the Chinese government withheld information in an attempt to cover it up. The evidence is long gone, obviously.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nonsensical and Utterly defies logic. But that's the www for you...


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Well, you have zero proof that the virus originated in a lab in China but otherwise I agree with you.


Nobody has proof. And those that know the truth will disappear if they come forward. Regular Chinese citizens cannot communicate with any foreign source about what has really been going on there. The communists excel at concealing their social problems. Monitoring the communication of their citizens is one effective tactic of keeping a lid on things. For the record, I'm not saying the Wuhan lab created the virus from scratch. It was an existing virus that was made more lethal for research purposes. And it escaped, most likely by accident. There are even Trump hating liberals that are on this same bandwagon. If you do not see this as a probability, then what the heck do you believe started the pandemic?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Can we take the non-archery related argument to the cesspit forum (Anything & Everything), please?


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)




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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

My Cartel riser and limbs are labeled Made in Korea.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

tassie_devil said:


> Nonsensical and Utterly defies logic. But that's the www for you...


I'm sorry, but how does it defy logic that the virus may have escaped a Chinese lab?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

carlosii said:


> I'm sorry, but how does it defy logic that the virus may have escaped a Chinese lab?


Because "may have" does not exclude "may not have". I think this is where asserting only one possibility where several may exist is a logical fallacy called "false dichotomy".


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Before talking a load of drivel I suggest folks look up the information on genetic sequencing of coronavirus 19. The whole bioweapon myth was debunked a VERY long time ago by people who:

Know a lot about the genetics and functioning on Coronavirus
Understand how you would genetically engineer a bioweapon
Get a life and broaden you sources of information or stay in your bunker and take your meds.

Stretch


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

UK_Stretch said:


> Before talking a load of drivel I suggest folks look up the information on genetic sequencing of coronavirus 19. The whole bioweapon myth was debunked a VERY long time ago by people who:
> 
> Know a lot about the genetics and functioning on Coronavirus
> Understand how you would genetically engineer a bioweapon
> ...


Like I said, target archery - even Olympic recurve - is full of a wide spectrum of opinions and political leanings. One would think that a group of people with such a niche common interest would be more like-minded. Nope! 

I have some very good friends who shoot Olympic recurve that I think are lunatics when it comes to politics - on both ends of the political spectrum! And yet so long as everyone minds their manners, we all get to enjoy shooting alongside one another. That's a pretty cool thing about our sport.

As far as the topic of this thread, I was disappointed to see W&W move manufacturing to China. I can't think of a single company who moved their manufacturing to China and their product got BETTER as a result.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> As far as the topic of this thread, I was disappointed to see W&W move manufacturing to China. I can't think of a single company who moved their manufacturing to China and their product got BETTER as a result.


I don't disagree with that... Unfortunately, just about everyone is doing it to reduce labor costs... since China don't have issues with workers demanding higher wages, it's the best way to bring cost of manufacture down and therefore, increase profit margin.

As long as the Quality of China-manufactured product is as good as product manufactured in Korea, I honestly don't see a downside with that. Because ultimately, it's the quality of the end product is what counts.

The product may not get "Better", but if W&W/WNS product M.I.C. is just as good as M.I.K., and price could either come down, or W&W as a company make more money and therefore able to spend more on developing better product for the future, It will benefit all archers in the long run. IMO.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

UK_Stretch said:


> Before talking a load of drivel I suggest folks look up the information on genetic sequencing of coronavirus 19. The whole bioweapon myth was debunked a VERY long time ago by people who:
> 
> Know a lot about the genetics and functioning on Coronavirus
> Understand how you would genetically engineer a bioweapon
> ...


Who said anything about a bioweapon?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

You don't have to be a racist to prefer to purchase products from locations that are more in line with your priorities, whether those are political, economic, or humanistic. For me, all three lead to a preference to not buy from China when I have a choice that is reasonable to do otherwise. However, if my clear preference is for a product that is built there, I will buy it. The chinese may feel the same way about made in the USA. The reality is that it is hard to find products that are not to some degree made in places that might not be preferable. The ship has sailed on globalization. It might be steered, but it has a lot of momentum. As to the quality of Win products made in China, I have seen nothing to indicate a problem.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> View attachment 7429013
> 
> 
> Just a bit of humor, from a recent text I received.


sorry, just saw this today.

Actually Chian is located in Jilin, China. Its a place in China.

Chian, China.

Chris


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

People aren't very good at geology...


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Hikari said:


> People aren't very good at geology...


LMAO at the double-entendre of your post!!! Geology, geography...well played Sir!


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> sorry, just saw this today.
> 
> Actually Chian is located in Jilin, China. Its a place in China.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, the product originated from Shenzhen, which as about as far from Jilin as Los Angeles is from Houston.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mental whizzing contests are never far away on AT...


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## Limb_bow (Sep 15, 2021)

This is actually why I lost interest in the brand but they still seem to make amazing bows. I also learn recently that they make bikes too??? I guess the science works?? No clue but in my pursuit for my favourite riser I do lean towards Hoyt's made in the USA standard. For risers I can maybe see since you can upgrade more often but with a riser I'd like to just use one guy for years. Please let me know if there is a reason for me to look at win &win again since I love the look of their risers hahah.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

Maybe the fact that they didn't have any limbs blow up at the olympics


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## MrPillow (Apr 9, 2021)

Or at European Field Championship, etc…


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## Limb_bow (Sep 15, 2021)

True I have always hear WNW limbs are superior to other brands. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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