# Unknown Classes?????



## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

Its easier to use a rangefinder and get a number than to put in the practice required to learn to range targets.and I think its brought a lot of people into the game that otherwise wouldn't participate because of not being able to judge yardage.there are some very good shooters that shoot k45 and k50 and there ain't know way when I win out of open b I will put my money up against them cause those guys can really shoot


----------



## enabear722 (Oct 10, 2005)

Very true. I guess I look at it different than others. I like the challenge of judging the course.


----------



## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

I like the added challange of that as well.but its took a lot of work and practice to get as decent as I am at judging yardage and I still get fooled on a regular basis seems there is always one thay gets me on every range


----------



## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Most of the club shoots in our area have one open class. Almost everywhere has gone to known yardage. I enjoy it they set the course average higher and make it challenging.


----------



## elpepe25 (Dec 7, 2006)

Because if it is all about judging yardage, then why bring a bow? Just give a score card, write down your distance guess, and move on. The known classes demonstrate good shooting. I could be wrong here but if all the guys in the unknown pro stuff are good shooters (they are) he who judges yardage best wins. To some the unknown is less about shooting well and emphasizes judging.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

enabear722 said:


> Very true. I guess I look at it different than others. I like the challenge of judging the course.


im with ya brother.
my first year ASA i shot open B didn't read the class description and didn't know the second half was known.
i shot the best i have ever shot on the known course but it was very boring to me. i get more satisfaction out of guessing the yardage and taking a good shot.


----------



## enabear722 (Oct 10, 2005)

I just feel that it is a mixture of judging and shooting. Makes it more of a challenge to have to do both. And again I am not taking anything away from known classes at all. Just thinking why at the local clubs around here everyone is shooting known.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yeah, I like the challenge of judging also, even though I'm not great at it.

Since we started the know class, it has completely dried up the Open class. I'll have 8:1 in the known class versus the Open class.


----------



## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

I think the growth in known classes at local shoots is because the average Joe feels like he has a better shot at winning than he would in the unknown classes. I could be wrong but that's just what I believe has happened


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> Yeah, I like the challenge of judging also, even though I'm not great at it.
> 
> Since we started the know class, it has completely dried up the Open class. I'll have 8:1 in the known class versus the Open class.



It won't be long before some of the actual Pros start shooting this class around here just to win money. I've noticed in other areas that it has already started. At one time here there was a possibility of 10 Pros to show up at a shoot. And once this happens the known class will dwindle down.


----------



## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Sporting events have a tendancy to cater to those who say if you make it easier then more will think they can win, which will increase the pot for those who do. Reducing the speed of racing will include those who think it's all about driving is just an example, but speed was what made racing so popular. Judjing yardage, and making a killing shot is a part of 3D that made it so popular, but known classes will attract spot shooters which will increase the numbers. I'm of the opinion that walking through the woods, having to deal with insects, uneven ground, sun, wind, heat, rain, cold, or maybe even using animal targets has nothing to do with competition archery, but it's included along with judjing yardage and called 3D Archery. If we eliminate the differences, provided as 3D competition, will it then be called just Archery competition? (Just my .02)


----------



## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

elpepe25 said:


> Because if it is all about judging yardage, then why bring a bow? Just give a score card, write down your distance guess, and move on. The known classes demonstrate good shooting. I could be wrong here but if all the guys in the unknown pro stuff are good shooters (they are) he who judges yardage best wins. To some the unknown is less about shooting well and emphasizes judging.


I would have to disagree with you that it's all about judging yardage. Judging is just a piece of the pie in a successful day. Having known yardage just eliminates that piece. Both require excellent shot execution and course management. I would disagree that he who judges the best yardage wins. Knowing the distance doesn't mean squat if you can't hit the side of a barn. They still have to hit what they are aiming at but they had to figure out the distance on their own. 

To me, it seems like known vs. unknown is a lot like driving race cars. There are many different classes of car that use the same track, they are all difficult to drive well but anyone who drives well is still a good driver. They are just very different sectors of the same sport. I have the utmost respect for both the known and unknown shooters!


----------



## enabear722 (Oct 10, 2005)

Mainefella said:


> I would have to disagree with you that it's all about judging yardage. Judging is just a piece of the pie in a successful day. Having known yardage just eliminates that piece. Both require excellent shot execution and course management. I would disagree that he who judges the best yardage wins. Knowing the distance doesn't mean squat if you can't hit the side of a barn. They still have to hit what they are aiming at but they had to figure out the distance on their own.
> 
> To me, it seems like known vs. unknown is a lot like driving race cars. There are many different classes of car that use the same track, they are all difficult to drive well but anyone who drives well is still a good driver. They are just very different sectors of the same sport. I have the utmost respect for both the known and unknown shooters!


This is very well put Mainefella


----------



## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

To shoot all unknown, there is really limited options. Open A, Semi, and Pro class. I really don't consider myself good enough to be competitive in Open A, but I shoot it. What choice do I have?

I think this also plays a part in the shrinking number of unknown shooters.


----------



## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

enabear722 said:


> This is very well put Mainefella


Thank you, just my take on things. At the end of the day the winning shooters in both known and unknown are excellent shooters in their own rights.


----------



## mgs270 (Apr 16, 2015)

I am perplexed by this phenomenon as well? Estimating Yardage is 1/2 the fun and challenge. What's the point ? Why don't you just shoot Field? Oh' I can hit 10's and 12's every time when you give me the range. ..... and what's with these Career Staff shooter Novice's? Is a 3D shooter who shoots Even or better twice in a row a novice? If things were right in the ASA there about 40-50 Novice class shooters who should receive a hi velocity steel toed Gore Tex Size 13 E Boot into a choice of several higher classes.


----------



## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

Have anyone considered using the defense course for known yardage setup shut it down from say 9:00 to 2:00 for the scoring shooters have there stakes pre set apart from the defense stake that saves the problem of having to add another course known distance and fix's the problem of numbers getting thrown around over a cold one in the evening!!!


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Mainefella said:


> To me, it seems like known vs. unknown is a lot like driving race cars. There are many different classes of car that use the same track, they are all difficult to drive well but anyone who drives well is still a good driver. They are just very different sectors of the same sport. I have the utmost respect for both the known and unknown shooters!



maybe but to me known is driving a race car with the steering wheel on a straight track and unkown is driving in a Baja race without a steering wheel.
way more exciting


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Known is taking the "Arch" out of "Archery". lain:


----------



## enabear722 (Oct 10, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> Known is taking the "Arch" out of "Archery". lain:


 :thumbs_up


----------



## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

bsharkey said:


> maybe but to me known is driving a race car with the steering wheel on a straight track and unkown is driving in a Baja race without a steering wheel.
> way more exciting


I'm not arguing which one is more exciting. Just putting in perspective. I too prefer unknown but can respect both for sure. A buddy of mine drove in the Baja 1000 last year, it's definitely more exciting!


----------



## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Its funny how the unknown people get so worked up about known classes makes me chuckle...


----------



## Tony Bagnall (Sep 8, 2012)

BowHuntnKY said:


> Its funny how the unknown people get so worked up about known classes makes me chuckle...


I agree....


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Known yardage has no place on a 3d course, its not how 3d was intended or started out. It's got to do with how lazy people have gotten this day and age!


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

573mms said:


> Known yardage has no place on a 3d course, its not how 3d was intended or started out. It's got to do with how lazy people have gotten this day and age!


3D started with aluminum arrows, slow bows, fixed pin sights.

Do you shoot aluminum arrows, fixed pins, finger tabs, and the like ? Or did you evolve with the sport as well?


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Garceau said:


> 3D started with aluminum arrows, slow bows, fixed pin sights.
> 
> Do you shoot aluminum arrows, fixed pins, finger tabs, and the like ? Or did you evolve with the sport as well?


Evolving with the sport is one thing, trying to kill the sport we love is another.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Mainefella said:


> I'm not arguing which one is more exciting. Just putting in perspective. I too prefer unknown but can respect both for sure. A buddy of mine drove in the Baja 1000 last year, it's definitely more exciting!


Yeah me neither really. The Baja thing would have been pretty damn cool though.
The known class would get more people into shooting.if they do it I would treat it as a beginner class you could only shoot for 3-5 years and get bumped out.or win your way out.
Also I think IBO should have you put your class on your card and you have to shoot that class .a few years ago I had a buddy bumped from HC because a few good shooters shot a different class at the end of the triple crown the last year it was in nelsonville.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Drama Queens


----------



## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

You know, I WAS enjoying 3D shooting because I wasn't running into the elitist snots I used to run into racing catamarans back in the day. But you guys are making me second guess that. Maybe I don't have all the time in the world to practice judging distances. maybe i dont want to have to looking for arrows if I misjudge. I have to work and deal with kids, and the realities off life. My once a month club shoots are one of the rare chances I get to get out these days and interact with "the guys". So far I haven't had anyone look down their noses at me because I shoot know. At least I hope not. Hope I don't have to start putting up with it in the future.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Milo357 said:


> You know, I WAS enjoying 3D shooting because I wasn't running into the elitist snots I used to run into racing catamarans back in the day. But you guys are making me second guess that. Maybe I don't have all the time in the world to practice judging distances. maybe i dont want to have to looking for arrows if I misjudge. I have to work and deal with kids, and the realities off life. My once a month club shoots are one of the rare chances I get to get out these days and interact with "the guys". So far I haven't had anyone look down their noses at me because I shoot know. At least I hope not. Hope I don't have to start putting up with it in the future.


I'm still trying to figure out how someone shooting known distance has anything to do with them.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Unknown isn't for everybody and known isn't either. I say shoot what you enjoy, as long your happy that's all that matters.


----------



## owmygulay (Feb 6, 2012)

blade37defender said:


> I think the growth in known classes at local shoots is because the average Joe feels like he has a better shot at winning than he would in the unknown classes. I could be wrong but that's just what I believe has happened


Not a shot at winning but just being able to compete. I am that average joe. Don't have a ton of time to practice. Only get out about once a week. My first try at 3d was an unknown course and I spent the whole time digging around in the brush and lost almost a dozen arrows. I have since gotten better but find known courses much more enjoyable. I don't think there is anything wrong with the known class. It is just a step below the unknow. The analogy of different classes of race cars someone posted earlier is pretty close. I would like to shoot unknown but am not that good yet.


----------



## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

jimb said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how someone shooting known distance has anything to do with them.


What exactly are do you mean? I'm not impressed with the people RAGGING on the know shooters.


----------



## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

owmygulay said:


> Not a shot at winning but just being able to compete. I am that average joe. Don't have a ton of time to practice. Only get out about once a week. My first try at 3d was an unknown course and I spent the whole time digging around in the brush and lost almost a dozen arrows. I have since gotten better but find known courses much more enjoyable. I don't think there is anything wrong with the known class. It is just a step below the unknow. The analogy of different classes of race cars someone posted earlier is pretty close. I would like to shoot unknown but am not that good yet.


Exactly. I had the same experience. FORTUNATELY for me, I had highly understanding companions in my group, they knew it was my first time, and did their very best to help me understand the aspects of the meet. By the end I was hitting 10's and the guys were joking that the coaching session was over. I'll don't really give a rip to shoot unknown right now. And anyone that doesn't think much of that can stick it.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Milo357 said:


> What exactly are do you mean? I'm not impressed with the people RAGGING on the know shooters.


I mean that if you like known yardage that is great, I also mean that if you like unknown yardage that is great. I don't really see what one has to do with the other one and why anyone would care about what someone else wants to shoot. I have shot known and unknown at national events over the last two years and I enjoy shooting known yardage better because I don't have to deal with the stress of judging yardage. I also had a top 10 finish in London ASA last year judging yardage but I have to put a lot of time into yardage practice to do that. I don't judge anyone on what they shoot and I don't think anyone else should either.


----------



## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

jimb said:


> I mean that if you like known yardage that is great, I also mean that if you like unknown yardage that is great. I don't really see what one has to do with the other one and why anyone would care about what someone else wants to shoot. I have shot known and unknown at national events over the last two years and I enjoy shooting known yardage better because I don't have to deal with the stress of judging yardage. I also had a top 10 finish in London ASA last year judging yardage but I have to put a lot of time into yardage practice to do that. I don't judge anyone on what they shoot and I don't think anyone else should either.


Thank you. Seems people forget that people actually go our for RECREATION, not always to compete for cash or awards. I'm shooting for a personal best, not to see how much money I'm walking away with at the end.


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Real 3d guys go to unknown 3d shoots for fun and recreation its not about trophies or money. I have been shooting 3d since before 3d targets when the targets where all 2d foam and 3d is all about guessing yardage and making a good shot. Indoor paper guys started known 3d because they couldn't compete with the 3d guys on a 3d course and they are changing the sport we have loved doing for years.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

573mms said:


> Known yardage has no place on a 3d course, its not how 3d was intended or started out. It's got to do with how lazy people have gotten this day and age!


It didn't start out to be all about money shoots either, but that seems to be all that's talked about. Getting average bow hunters to get involved has been pushed completely aside. And who in their right mind, as a hunter, tries to judge and execute a shot out to 50-55 yards without a range finder? Just my perspective of what has happened to 3D in general. Fun went out the window when it became all about money.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

bfisher said:


> And who in their right mind, as a hunter, tries to judge and execute a shot out to 50-55 yards without a range finder.


Ok why would a "hunter" in their right mind shoot open? Most hunter class shots are 23-33 yards with a bow shooting 300+ fps you don't need a range finder. Look at the Hunter class scores out of 200 shooters you usually have 30-40 guys who shoot even or up.


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

When 3d first started there was no yardage restrictions in classes you might of had a mule deer or bear target at 55-65yds or a elk or a moose target at 70-80yds. You just guessed the yardage and made the shot, as long as every body shot from there stake it was fair for everybody and everybody had the same chance. With the yardage restrictions on classes 3d is alot easier than it used to be and is not unachievable for anybody you can't expect to start out on top in any sport. You start at the bottom and work your way up and everybody peaks somewhere not everybody makes it to the top all that matters is your having fun. The known classes got started because the top indoor paper guys started shooting 3d (because it started paying money) and found out that they was only finishing middle of the pack and where not at the top anymore. The fix for this was drop the most important half of the sport (make it easier) so they could be back on top again. I don't care what class you shoot at a 3d shoot, shoot what ever makes you happy and more power to ya but 3d is going the wrong way. More and more classes are going known yardage and some shoots all together are going that way and its not helping 3d its killing it.


----------



## josechno (Sep 20, 2007)

I think it pretty great to shoot known and I look at it this way ASA added a new class Senior Mens Known that averages 50 or more shooters... IBO added Pro Hunter that has 5. Its the way of the times better get on the boat


----------



## T2SHOOTER (Feb 26, 2014)

For me, I can tell you that if our 3D courses were only 25-35 yarders, I'd get bored known or unknown yardage. Smile. Most of the unknown 3D events around here are Traditional shoots. There is a good thread asking what you want in a 3D event, and for me it's eliminating the freestyle rigs--all the fooling around just to take a shot. Just kidding--shoot but be respectful. Our events usually range from 3 yards to out over a 100 yards times 42. They're fun, but it's a long day even though we're only shooting two arrows. When I walk our club range, at least five days a week, I like shooting from varied stakes, and the best part is I can shoot practically unknown distances. Well guessing and coming close because our stakes are labeled, but I can move forward or back and guess. Making shooting fun. If it's not fun, why do it. And for those that only get out once a week, I can see why you'd want known distances. But shooting fingers and no sights gives me enough of a challenge. Smile.


----------



## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

Some people are just stubborn in there ways. To each his own. Whatever gets more people into archery the better.. I shoot a compound. So should I hate the traditional class? Makes no sense that people judge others and what class they shoot. Important thing is they are shooting!


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Tell me the Open Pro shootout at Paris would have been as exciting if it had been known yardage...no way, Dudes.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

carlosii said:


> Tell me the Open Pro shootout at Paris would have been as exciting if it had been known yardage...no way, Dudes.


I haven't heard anyone say that they want unknown yardage to go away, most just want the option.


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

carlosii said:


> Tell me the Open Pro shootout at Paris would have been as exciting if it had been known yardage...no way, Dudes.


I don't think a single person here has advocated for Open Pro to be a known class... no way, Dude.


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Unknown guys want an option too, look at asa for a example its a joke on a 3d course people have to start all the way up in open a to shoot unknown 3d. Bow novice, hunter, open c and open b should be unknown yardage. If there is no starter classes to shoot unknown yardage how are people supposed to get good enough to compete in open a, semi pro and open pro. Bow novice is a 30yd max if you can't judge yardage to 30yds you don't need to be shooting, making all the lower classes known is just the beggining to the end for the higher classes.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

573mms said:


> Unknown guys want an option too, look at asa for a example its a joke on a 3d course people have to start all the way up in open a to shoot unknown 3d. Bow novice, hunter, open c and open b should be unknown yardage. If there is no starter classes to shoot unknown yardage how are people supposed to get good enough to compete in open a, semi pro and open pro. Bow novice is a 30yd max if you can't judge yardage to 30yds you don't need to be shooting, making all the lower classes known is just the beggining to the end for the higher classes.


Exactly!


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

You guys are too funny.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

573mms said:


> Unknown guys want an option too, look at asa for a example its a joke on a 3d course people have to start all the way up in open a to shoot unknown 3d. Bow novice, hunter, open c and open b should be unknown yardage. If there is no starter classes to shoot unknown yardage how are people supposed to get good enough to compete in open a, semi pro and open pro. Bow novice is a 30yd max if you can't judge yardage to 30yds you don't need to be shooting, making all the lower classes known is just the beggining to the end for the higher classes.


Lots of options.....I suck at judging but shoot open A

Come on in the waters fine. 

But I have no issues against known yardage. I'm not very judgemental or declare whom deserves to be shooting and whom doesn't. There are plenty others to do that for me I guess.


----------



## boner (Jan 9, 2008)

Well Nascar started on a beach, now look at it. As for lazy I've hiked 6 to 10 miles a day in new found land in what felt like a wet matress to shoot a bear. If pulling out my range finder to range it makes me lazy then so be it.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

boner said:


> Well Nascar started on a beach, now look at it. As for lazy I've hiked 6 to 10 miles a day in new found land in what felt like a wet matress to shoot a bear. If pulling out my range finder to range it makes me lazy then so be it.


id say that's a little different I've never seen or heard anyone say it was inhumane to wound a foam animal?
although I have seen some foam animals that look like they needed to be put out of their misery.lol


----------



## Old Man Archer (Mar 31, 2009)

The only thing different between field archery and known yardage 3-d is the spots to aim at and field archery has some longer shots. Used to hear 3-d shooters put down field shooters because of the fact that they knew the yardage , now they both know the yardage and they will probably start adding aiming spots to the 3-d targets if things continue down the path they are headed. I like both sports but prefer to shoot unknown in 3-d , thats how it was first conceived and I guess thats what first attracted me to it is that there is an unknown factor to it that evens the playing field somewhat.


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

There should be only 6 classes in 3d. Kids Open and Pins, Women Open and Pins and Mens Open and Pins. There should be no starter classes and no old geezer classes. Its just too confusing  70yd max unknown is what it should be. Lets atleast make it interesting


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Right now we have a very good variety of classes for a guy to get his feet wet in 3d archery especially at the national level asa shoots. It doesn't matter what class you are entered into you are going to find some really good shooters who are there to win and get a asa victory. So just choose a class and go shoot and see where you stack up against the best in the nation. 

I have two really strong 3d guys in my area one is Blake Allen and then other is Sam Woltius and Blake is a unknown guy and Sam is a Known guy. I have shot with both of them and watching them play their respective game is simply awesome because their ability to play at a very high level day after day week after week is unreal. These guys both have a very high level of shooting ability but to me it is their ability to play the game of unknown or known that sets them apart.

For me I am a solid shooter and a decent yardage guy so I choose to shoot unknown, I have been learning the game for a few years now and it takes some time to learn but it sure is fun. I take a lot of pride in the fact that I aim at all of the 12 rings all day long every day and I strive to clean a course with no 8's shooting it unknown, I don't do it often but every once in a while it happens. I just love stepping up to a 46 yard target knowing that at that distance I am losing almost 2 inches per yard of elevation and picking a number that is going to either hit dead on or slightly high and making the shot and getting my 10 or 12 target after target all day long. So pick a class and get to working on your game and quit worrying about one class ruining the sport, I am one good year from winning out of semi pro and earning the right to call myself a pro 3d shooter and would love to reach that goal but I gotta get better.


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Well said Padgett. I've never cared about what class anyone shoots but my wife. I'm still trying to find her a class she can't beat me in!!!


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Padgett said:


> Right now we have a very good variety of classes for a guy to get his feet wet in 3d archery especially at the national level asa shoots. It doesn't matter what class you are entered into you are going to find some really good shooters who are there to win and get a asa victory. So just choose a class and go shoot and see where you stack up against the best in the nation.
> 
> I have two really strong 3d guys in my area one is Blake Allen and then other is Sam Woltius and Blake is a unknown guy and Sam is a Known guy. I have shot with both of them and watching them play their respective game is simply awesome because their ability to play at a very high level day after day week after week is unreal. These guys both have a very high level of shooting ability but to me it is their ability to play the game of unknown or known that sets them apart.
> 
> For me I am a solid shooter and a decent yardage guy so I choose to shoot unknown, I have been learning the game for a few years now and it takes some time to learn but it sure is fun. I take a lot of pride in the fact that I aim at all of the 12 rings all day long every day and I strive to clean a course with no 8's shooting it unknown, I don't do it often but every once in a while it happens. I just love stepping up to a 46 yard target knowing that at that distance I am losing almost 2 inches per yard of elevation and picking a number that is going to either hit dead on or slightly high and making the shot and getting my 10 or 12 target after target all day long. So pick a class and get to working on your game and quit worrying about one class ruining the sport, I am one good year from winning out of semi pro and earning the right to call myself a pro 3d shooter and would love to reach that goal but I gotta get better.


You must have some blinders on if you think asa has a good variety of classes, it does have alot of classes but most are known yardage. Bow novice, hunter, open c and open b used to be all unknown now they are either known or half and half all the lower level unknown classes are gone.


----------



## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

The way I see it, there is one choice for shooting unknown...open A. Semi and open pro are not classes one just "chooses" to shoot. There really is a lot of known yardage. Let's just hope they don't break out the orange stickers. lol


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Known classes came to exist because _customers _ wanted it. I bet that if the customers one day want more unknown classes then that is what the ASA will provide. The "paper punchers" are NOT the ones that started the known class movement. I dare say it was archers that had range finders and used range finders every day (hunters/recreational 3D'ers). They did not want to spend a lot of time practicing yardage guessing.

I am fairly certain Mike T. did not force anyone to shoot K45 the year the class was founded and K45 fairly quickly started drawing a 100 archers! Times, they are a'changing........ The ASA is growing so Known classes must not be too bad for business.


----------



## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

Here is an idea instead of getting all worked up about to many classes or this and that. If using a rangefinder bothers you then go shoot your chosen class without it or the range card if provided.and shoot it unknown.there are classes for everybody from a first time shooter to high level amateurs to semi pro to pro to seniors and for women and kids.I thinks its great to go to a pro am and see 1300 plus shooters at one place and everybody feels like they belong in there chosen class.and as a side note you do not have to go all the way to open a in asa to shoot unknown hunter is a half and half class and unlimited is all unknown


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Unlimited is unknown also.


----------



## toypar (Feb 7, 2008)

I have no problem with someone shooting known or unknown. I don't have a problem with novice being known and hunter being half and half. But I would like to make open b all unknown and add a unknown 40 yard class.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

jimb said:


> Drama Queens


Yep.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Well....when you all realize 573mms is correct and the only opinion that matters this thread will die.

But that doesn't explain why ASA and the known classes ate doing so well......hmmmm


----------



## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

573mms said:


> Evolving with the sport is one thing, trying to kill the sport we love is another.


As my first real post on here( other then saying hello) I agree with this. I'm one of those first 3D people that shot aluminum arrows, fixed pins with a slow bow (240 fps was fast back then). The whole idea behind 3D back then was to give you a real world hunting situation. 

To bring people into the sport, I can see having a class that gives you the yardages. Some people just don't have the time to put in to get really good. Give them a class to shoot in,where they can have fun, not lose $200 in arrows every shoot and track there scores like in golf, and once you've reached a certain level, you make them move up to a higher class and learn to judge yardages. This way, they have a place to shoot, but they are not beating up on others if they get real good.

Bowhunter Class back then was always the biggest class. We had hunting bows, and some of the guys were damn good with hunting setups. Some guys were in the unlimited class, and had the tricked out race bows, but they still had to guess the yardages. Once you get to a certain level with shooting a compound, guessing yardage is what makes the difference between a lot of shooters. Those guys would smack your nocks just for fun.


----------



## enabear722 (Oct 10, 2005)

Well I opened a can here I see. Mr Morelli you are correct DRAMA LOL


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

enabear722 said:


> Well I opened a can here I see. Mr Morelli you are correct DRAMA LOL


You made a reasonable observation. As usual with AT, people who don't even play the game feel the need to voice their opinions and try to change the game for those of us who do. 

There is a class for everyone. Pick the one you like. Shoot it....and quit worrying about everyone else!


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

tmorelli said:


> You made a reasonable observation. As usual with AT, people who don't even play the game feel the need to voice their opinions and try to change the game for those of us who do.
> 
> There is a class for everyone. Pick the one you like. Shoot it....and quit worrying about everyone else!


What do you mean people that don't play the game? Asa was only used as a example because most of the classes are going known yardage. Some people have jobs that don't allow them to take off work for 3 or 4 days a month to go 3 or 4 states away to 3d shoots. Why do asa guys think they are better than people that don't go or don't get to go shoot asa events. I try to shoot atleast 1 3d shoot every weekend 8 months out of the year and guareentee over the last 26yrs have shot a hell of alot more 3d shoots than you.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

573mms said:


> What do you mean people that don't play the game? Asa was only used as a example because most of the classes are going known yardage. Some people have jobs that don't allow them to take off work for 3 or 4 days a month to go 3 or 4 states away to 3d shoots. Why do asa guys think they are better than people that don't go or don't get to go shoot asa events. I try to shoot atleast 1 3d shoot every weekend 8 months out of the year and guareentee over the last 26yrs have shot a hell of alot more 3d shoots than you.


This isn't about anyone being "better" than you or anyone else. This is about griping about known yardage 3d. ASA is the only relevant org with known yardage 3d so you're griping about a game you admittedly don't play. 

BTW, I've been at this a long time too....


----------



## jbeasleyshoot (Jan 29, 2008)

I shoot better scores in unknown than known so I can say that I have a lot of respect for those that shoot known well. I do agree however that the choices for unknown classes are going away. I would like to see open B go all unknown for purely selfish reasons, but hey who am I. Really the system works well but the sport does seem to be trending toward the known side and I think that is kind of sad because when I started shooting that was the biggest part of the game. Like it or not though known is now a part of the sport.


----------



## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Garceau said:


> Well....when you all realize 573mms is correct and the only opinion that matters this thread will die.


Haha


----------



## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

573mms said:


> Unknown guys want an option too, look at asa for a example its a joke on a 3d course people have to start all the way up in open a to shoot unknown 3d. Bow novice, hunter, open c and open b should be unknown yardage. If there is no starter classes to shoot unknown yardage how are people supposed to get good enough to compete in open a, semi pro and open pro. Bow novice is a 30yd max if you can't judge yardage to 30yds you don't need to be shooting, making all the lower classes known is just the beggining to the end for the higher classes.





sagecreek said:


> Exactly!



Add all the numbers from texas for just KNOWN classes.. NOT including bow novice and it equals 30% of the shooters...sure is a large market to shun away...............but the IBO knows best what archers want..

Ahy not go straight to.open A ....doesn't someone in IBO shooting an open set up have start at 50yds unknown as well?


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Tmorelli is to me exactly the kind of shooter that benefits from the way asa is doing their classes, just a couple years ago he was a top known 45 guy and then he shot some known 50 and then he came over to open a with me and started working on his ranging. Some of us won out of open a and are now semi pro shooters and tmorelli is doing the same thing we did and has gotten better and won texas and will more than likely win out of open a easily this year and move on to semi pro next year.

There is a natural progression at the asa level where you start out in short distance classes and known distances if you need to and then as you win out you can move up as you improve and shoot against better and better competition as you improve. 

One of my favorite guys on the asa ranges is Richard Teasley, he is a guy that I finally met last year in open a and he is becoming a really solid shooter who totally started in the novice class just a few years ago. Richard openly admits that he was a true beginner when he found asa and not some local stud that just showed up, he treats every moment on the range as a learning experience and is a joy to be around. I was one of those guys that was winning locally especially when the asa guys were gone once a month and didn't even realize it so when I showed up to asa I chose open b. I instantly saw a huge difference in the game play between the known day and the unknown day and I shot three of them and mid season went up to open a because I enjoy unknown way more than known. I shot two full seasons of open a before learning the game well enough to win out and move on.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Padgett said:


> Tmorelli is to me exactly the kind of shooter that benefits from the way asa is doing their classes, just a couple years ago he was a top known 45 guy and then he shot some known 50 and then he came over to open a with me and started working on his ranging. Some of us won out of open a and are now semi pro shooters and tmorelli is doing the same thing we did and has gotten better and won texas and will more than likely win out of open a easily this year and move on to semi pro next year.
> 
> There is a natural progression at the asa level where you start out in short distance classes and known distances if you need to and then as you win out you can move up as you improve and shoot against better and better competition as you improve.
> 
> One of my favorite guys on the asa ranges is Richard Teasley, he is a guy that I finally met last year in open a and he is becoming a really solid shooter who totally started in the novice class just a few years ago. Richard openly admits that he was a true beginner when he found asa and not some local stud that just showed up, he treats every moment on the range as a learning experience and is a joy to be around. I was one of those guys that was winning locally especially when the asa guys were gone once a month and didn't even realize it so when I showed up to asa I chose open b. I instantly saw a huge difference in the game play between the known day and the unknown day and I shot three of them and mid season went up to open a because I enjoy unknown way more than known. I shot two full seasons of open a before learning the game well enough to win out and move on.


TMo was a stud 3D'er back in the day...... :wink: well, as much of a stud as a punk kid can be. He was out of the game for a while and then shot Known for a tune up before jumping back into the unknown classes.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> TMo was a stud 3D'er back in the day...... :wink: well, as much of a stud as a punk kid can be. He was out of the game for a while and then shot Known for a tune up before jumping back into the unknown classes.


At the time, my youth did not limit my studliness....at least in my mind 

It is TBT right?


----------

