# Michigan Crossbow Inclusion State Wide Passed?



## rattus58

I wrote those guys today as president of Hawaii Hunting Association and asked them what their position is on crossbows. 

They don't have too many people as part of their organization I notice.

Aloha... :beer:


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## BigBirdVA

I heard the same it passed. Another state stops listening to the 3% club.:thumbs_up


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## xbow1

This is good news to say the least. Little by little the BS'ers are being found out. 

They're the ones who ultimately will become banished from the family of archery hunters. 

No one needs them, most everyone knows it.


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## Riva

*Michigan*

Yes, it passed! Michigan is now 99.9% full inclusion.

The logjam, IMHO, was that there was concern from people in the UP that crossbows could decimate the deer herd while the deer are in their late-season winter yards. The pro crossbow people said that science does not support that however, let's give a few years to validate scientifically. With that, they suggested that crossbows be restricted in zone 1 during the late season. Short of that, all other regulations contain in Option #3 should be enacted.

That was a fair accommodation in my book however, 3 of the commissioners still voted against the proposal. 4 voted in favor and now, starting in 2010.

Any person age 10 or older can hunt with a crossbow during the archery season statewide (expect late season in UP)

No sunset provision

No 350 fps arrow speed limitation

No permitting process for the medically disabled

It was a hard 3-year journey for many people to get where we are today. Ultimately science and common sense won out. Many lessons were learned which I and my colleagues would be glad to share with you on how to make the path to full inclusion happen in your state. Not an expert but did learn a few things along the way.


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## awshucks

Congrat's, Bill, ETAL!! [Won't name worker bee's for fear of missing a few.]


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## Redclub

Very good to hear :thumbs_up lot less wounded deer now
Redclub


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## marbowNC

Redclub said:


> Very good to hear :thumbs_up lot less wounded deer now
> Redclub


HAHA , Less wounded deer ... better think again !! You got to judge yardage even with a crossbow , to many people is gonna just think they can just throw up and shoot like a rifle !! :wink:


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## Tim50

marbowNC said:


> HAHA , Less wounded deer ... better think again !! You got to judge yardage even with a crossbow , to many people is gonna just think they can just throw up and shoot like a rifle !! :wink:


It is a shame that your total lack of understanding of a weapon has turned you against your fellow hunter. Your assumption that anyone who hunts with anything other than YOUR weapon of choice is somehow less of a hunter is a disgrace! Grow up! Hunt the coming NC season with YOUR weapon of choice and enjoy the season! And let others do the same! Like it or not crossbows are now legal in the NC woods. Deal with it! If you cannot maybe its time you chose another hobby! Attacking fellow hunters does no one any good!


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## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> HAHA , Less wounded deer ... better think again !! You got to judge yardage even with a crossbow , to many people is gonna just think they can just throw up and shoot like a rifle !! :wink:


do you just make up the stuff you post? It is obvious that it has no basis in rational thought or empirical evidence


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## missedabiggun

JimC...c'mon dude....u r questioning the logic of the 'uncrowned world champion'? The man who claims to be able to outshoot almost all of the worlds top archers by shooting 'dime-sized groups at 60 yards'?


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## rcgerchow

I think it's a great thing for Michigan, I know it has gotten several people back into Archery Hunting that gave up due to not being able to pull or shoot their old bows. A very good long time hunting buddy gave up bow hunting due to some arm problems over several years and was able to shoot a broad head league and hunt with me last year. As for Crossbow decimating our deer herd anywhere in the State, I believe other issues need to be addressed. This year in DMU 486 we can purchase 5 antlerless tags per day until the massive quota is reached. In DMU 121 no antlerless tags are available, local rumor on this is decimation due to predation. Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but we have so many other important issues.


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## Tim50

rcgerchow said:


> I think it's a great thing for Michigan, I know it has gotten several people back into Archery Hunting that gave up due to not being able to pull or shoot their old bows. A very good long time hunting buddy gave up bow hunting due to some arm problems over several years and was able to shoot a broad head league and hunt with me last year. As for Crossbow decimating our deer herd anywhere in the State, I believe other issues need to be addressed. This year in DMU 486 we can purchase 5 antlerless tags per day until the massive quota is reached. In DMU 121 no antlerless tags are available, local rumor on this is decimation due to predation. Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but we have so many other important issues.



Good points....from someone with first hand knowledge!....You are correct hunters need to unite to address the real issues facing the hunting community! And stop the hunter against hunter fighting....this fighting serves NO PURPOSE!!


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## Rancid Crabtree

> "Good points....from someone with first hand knowledge!...."



Oh, now, you value an opinion from someone with first hand knowledge from the state involved. Interesting how that works when you agree with the person with first hand knowledge. :wink:

By the way. In regards to MI. If this is what the clear majority of the hunters of that state want and the clear majority of deer hunters supported this change, then it was the proper thing to do for that state.


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## xbow1

Rancid Crabtree said:


> If this is what the clear majority of the hunters of that state want and the clear majority of deer hunters supported this change, then it was the proper thing to do for that state.


Wisconsin is next. I hope you can maintain the same good demeanor when that's finished.


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## jrip

marbowNC said:


> HAHA , Less wounded deer ... better think again !! *You got to judge yardage even with a crossbow , to many people is gonna just think they can just throw up and shoot like a rifle* !! :wink:


Thats exactly what happened last year, we sold 5X's as many Xbows as compound bows. By the end of November over half these people were coming in complaining that they shot at 5 or 6 deer and missed every one. Their bolt never made it even half way to the deer, and it was only a 150 yard shot. To bad they didnt listen to anybody when they bought their new crossbows about it being a 20-40 yard weapon.


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## rattus58

jrip said:


> Thats exactly what happened last year, we sold 5X's as many Xbows as compound bows. By the end of November over half these people were coming in complaining that they shot at 5 or 6 deer and missed every one. Their bolt never made it even half way to the deer, and it was only a 150 yard shot. To bad they didnt listen to anybody when they bought their new crossbows about it being a 20-40 yard weapon.


This is what happens when people look at propaganda from ANTI's rather than look at reality.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Tim50

jrip said:


> Thats exactly what happened last year, we sold 5X's as many Xbows as compound bows. By the end of November over half these people were coming in complaining that they shot at 5 or 6 deer and missed every one. *Their bolt never made it even half way to the deer, and it was only a 150 yard shot.* To bad they didnt listen to anybody when they bought their new crossbows about it being a 20-40 yard weapon.



We appreciate all the factual info you have supplied. I guess the anti crossbow crowd feels the info from a friend of a friends brother who knows a guy that heard it a a local bar is about as close to facts as we are going to get from these guys! You guys will NEVER get it! Truth & facts will help you cause better than lies & misinformation.....Your lies & misinformation really worked well in Michigan!! Congrats on full crossbow inclusion. The powers that be no longer have their heads buried in the local anti crossbow organizations sand! They are seeking facts from sources outside the anti crossbow community! And as soon as that happens......full inclusion is not far behind!! States are no longer drinking the anti crossbow kool aid!!!


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## xbow1

jrip said:


> Thats exactly what happened last year, we sold 5X's as many Xbows as compound bows. By the end of November over half these people were coming in complaining that they shot at 5 or 6 deer and missed every one. Their bolt never made it even half way to the deer, and it was only a 150 yard shot. To bad they didnt listen to anybody when they bought their new crossbows about it being a 20-40 yard weapon.


Pretty poor hyperbole.


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## BigBirdVA

You have to love the anti BS hype. So lets break the story down. Joe the gun hunter wants to get into archery season so he buys an xbow. Anyone getting anything new that shoots is going to do what? Not shoot it? To believe the anti's he goes home and shoots what, 1 maybe 2 shots and he's off to sling arrows at deer 150 yds away? He shoots nothing past 40 to see the drop and he never misses a shot during those minimum few test shots? And these arrows are what? Free all you can shoot? Broad heads are free too right? Does anyone actually think others will believe that crap? Do they think it all the way through? 5-6 arrows and broad heads is about $100. And we're to believe people just shoot away and have the funds to do that but they're not smart enough after the first try to figure out it isn't going to work so well? You forgot to add they made all those shots from the cab of their pick-up. 

Too funny, way too funny. Still being able to spin 'em like that might come in handy. On your resume for a job at say being a lobbyist for a anti-xbow bow club. :wink:


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## kevin from ohio

i cant wait until next year so we can stop talking about crossbows in michigan. we have had crossbows in ohio for as long as i can remember. its a non issue here.


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## Jim C

jrip said:


> Thats exactly what happened last year, we sold 5X's as many Xbows as compound bows. By the end of November over half these people were coming in complaining that they shot at 5 or 6 deer and missed every one. Their bolt never made it even half way to the deer, and it was only a 150 yard shot. To bad they didnt listen to anybody when they bought their new crossbows about it being a 20-40 yard weapon.


My BS detector not only redlined on that one-it blew up


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## jrip

xbow1 said:


> Pretty poor hyperbole.


Not hyperbole but actual facts and complaints from crossbow buyers who thought they could shoot to 100+ yards with their new crossbow. No matter how many times you told them it is a 40 yard weapon.


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## jrip

Jim C said:


> My BS detector not only redlined on that one-it blew up


Have it checked out then because every word is true!


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## awshucks

jrip said:


> Have it checked out then because every word is true!


Of course it is, lol. There's a plethoria of xbow forums on the 'Net. Folks are constantly looking for most accurate this and that. Bows, arrows, bheads.

Your 'observation' doesn't match reality.:darkbeer:


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## jrip

awshucks said:


> Of course it is, lol. There's a plethoria of xbow forums on the 'Net. Folks are constantly looking for most accurate this and that. Bows, arrows, bheads.
> 
> Your 'observation' doesn't match reality.:darkbeer:


My observations mirror reality to the letter. Too many ignored the "its only a 40 yard weapon" and thought they could shoot out to 100+ yards anyway. Then wanted a refund when they could shoot further with their shotguns. Like it or not that's the mentality of way too many xbow hunters.


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## Tim50

jrip said:


> My observations mirror reality to the letter. Too many ignored the "its only a 40 yard weapon" and thought they could shoot out to 100+ yards anyway. *Then wanted a refund when they could shoot further with their shotguns. *Like it or not that's the mentality of way too many xbow hunters.


Posts like this only fortify the pro crossbow position. Hunters are NOT idiots. Gun hunters are not idiots. Yet the archery elite always attempts to pass off *any hunter *other than those using the vertical bow as clueless. This will backfire. The VAST majority of hunters know what's going on & are offended by this portrail! The archery elite don't like crossbows or gun hunters hunting *THEIR* woods, shooting *THEIR* deer! Typical selfish elitisim!!! The average hunteris offended by these actions and is turning against the anti crossbow/anti hunter types. Rather tan attempting to unite the hunting community they are splintering it! They should be ashamed! Enjoy FULL INCLUSION in Michigan!!:thumbs_up


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## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> Posts like this only fortify the pro crossbow position. Hunters are NOT idiots. Gun hunters are not idiots. Yet the archery elite always attempts to pass off *any hunter *other than those using the vertical bow as clueless. This will backfire. The VAST majority of hunters know what's going on & are offended by this portrail! The archery elite don't like crossbows or gun hunters hunting *THEIR* woods, shooting *THEIR* deer! Typical selfish elitisim!!! The average hunteris offended by these actions and is turning against the anti crossbow/anti hunter types. Rather tan attempting to unite the hunting community they are splintering it! They should be ashamed! Enjoy FULL INCLUSION in Michigan!!:thumbs_up


One quick thing. If you come into the woods I am hunting, you are entering MY WOODS! I own the property and all the plant and tree life on it. So yes, I don't want more people hunting MY woods, public land on the otherhand, I could care less. 

And by saying anyone opposed to crossbows is an elitist and the VAST majority of hunters aren't opposed to them is wrong. Remember, you continually post 41.2% for Wisconsin, which by my math is not a vast or even slight majority. Characterizing those who oppose them as elitists is no better than guys calling pro crossbow users lazy. Sounds a little hypocritical to me, but whatever. Keep fighting the good fight.


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## Tim50

> The VAST majority of hunters know what's going on & are offended by this portrail! The archery elite don't like *crossbows or gun hunters *hunting THEIR woods, shooting THEIR deer! Typical selfish elitisim!!! The average hunteris offended by these actions and is turning against the anti crossbow/anti hunter types. Rather tan attempting to unite the hunting community they are splintering it!


Read the post not just what you want it to say! Your land you do what you want!


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## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> Read the post not just what you want it to say! Your land you do what you want!


Ha ha ha, I knew you would react like that. I was merely making an observation big guy. Relax. Not everything needs to be taken so personally. Crossbows aren't a life or death issue.


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## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> Ha ha ha, I knew you would react like that. I was merely making an observation big guy. Relax. Not everything needs to be taken so personally. Crossbows aren't a life or death issue.


Responding to you trying to misrepresent what I said? Why am I not suprised that you an anti crossbow proponent would try & spread misinformation. Your correct it is not life or death but try & be honest if you are quoting me! I am not the least bit upset....I just concider the source.....


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## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> Responding to you trying to misrepresent what I said? Why am I not suprised that you an anti crossbow proponent would try & spread misinformation. Your correct it is not life or death but try & be honest if you are quoting me! I am not the least bit upset....I just concider the source.....


Consider the source? Meaning what exactly? Because we don't share the same opinion on crossbows automatically makes all my opinions and observations garbage? I bet we agree on more things than we disagree on, but you are so blinded by this one issue that it seems to make you irrational. Just remember, it is my woods that I hunt in. If that makes me an elitist, so be it. I'm out of these crossbow threads for a while. They are pretty pointless to try to raise any kind of points or have civilized discussions. Way to personal and insulting for my tasteukey:


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## Cold Weather

maybe it's just me but I find it hypocritical that someone with 3 high end compounds preaches against someone with an xbow.

go make a self bow and make your own arrows like Saxton Pope and we'll listen to you


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## Bloodbath

Cold Weather said:


> maybe it's just me but I find it hypocritical that someone with 3 high end compounds preaches against someone with an xbow.
> 
> go make a self bow and make your own arrows like Saxton Pope and we'll listen to you


I actually own a lot more bows than the ones I have listed, including recurves and longbows. Funny, you assume I haven't made my own equipment, but you really don't know do you? What would you say if I have?

Again, we are focusing on the people and getting personal rather than discussing these things like adults. Now I see why these threads get locked and shut down. Again, have fun with this topic, I grow tired of being insulted by people that know nothing about me.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> go make a self bow and make your own arrows like Saxton Pope and we'll listen to you



Good point. Since you obviously value the opinion of those of us who do as you describe, I thought I would share with you some of my hunting gear so that my opinion matters.

I used chert stone flakes for this project.



















I made some wood and cooper tools and an antler brow tine to flake away the stone. The leather is to protect my hand as I press the coper tool against the chert. The flakes are sharp.










I started by squaring off the bottom of the flake and then chipped the head to shape.



















Lastly I added the grooves to each side that will be used to tie the head to the shaft. This is where I make the most mistakes and break the head.



















Next, I used a knife to cut a groove in the end of a wood shaft to accept the stone head.










I will trim away the extra wood after I tie the head on.










To tie the head to the shaft, I use the sinew I save from the loins/backstraps from my deer.










It separates into nice thin threads.










I soaked the sinew threads in cold water to soften and stretch them. While waiting, I stained the wood shaft. The sinew does not really get tied onto the shaft. It is more like wrapping a wet noodle around the shaft. After I put on a few layers, I let it dry . This makes it shrink tight. I then rub the sinew with a block of bees wax to waterproof it so it won't get wet and loosen up.




























For the fletching, I use turkey feathers from harvested birds and tied them on.










While stone is fun to work with, I still like the old school metal trade points from the Pope and Young days. I made these using harvested turkey feathers and old saw blades. All is lashed together with sinew.














































Speaking of turkey feathers. I use the feathers from the birds we harvest to make my own arrow fletchings. traditional bowhunters like to make our equipment.










I like to use whole uncut white feathers for the two hen feathers and a homemade c0ck feather. I found 7 good looking specimens (one is a spare)










Next I split them to get rid of the side that I won’t need.










Then I find the best section in the middle of the length and cut off the ends. These are longer than I need but I will trim them later










Because the split base is way to thick I need to thin them down.










I use a belt sander with a fine grit belt because the bases are pretty soft. I finish them with a sanding block










The thined feather is a lot less beefy.










Next I cut them to their finished length. 










After fletching, I use a feather burner to give them their shape.


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## Rancid Crabtree

When I feel like getting all modern, I make fancy heads.

I use 125 grain field points and reshape them to remove the shoulders. this step may not be necessary buy It looks nice. 

the blades are cut from a .039 thick saw blade.










the jig for slotting the field point is made of steel and clamps the point while the spacer (piece of hacksaw blade) Leaves room for the saw to pass between the two halves to cut the slot.




























I then polish the two pieces and make sure I have a good fit up.



















Next I braze the two parts together although I think solder or even J.B. Weld would suffice. I may try this on the next batch because brazing is messy and I have to quench afterward to make sure the heads are hard.










After cleaning and polishing again, I use a cold bluing to protect the heads and then a light coat of oil.









Finished weight, 165 grains. about 1 inch wide (15/16) and 1 1/4 long.










After making the first set of single bevel heads, I made a new set with a longer profile. This is the design I now hunt with.










They are just under 1 inch wide with a blade thickness of .039. The blades are single bevel. They are made the same way as prior heads where the blades are pinned to the ferrule. 










Since a guy should really test out his design before hunting with it, that is what I did. 










As luck would have it, a neighbor brought me a fresh archery kill to process for him. I asked him if it would be ok to test my heads on his deer. He didn't mind since he wanted the whole deer ground into sausage and/or burger. So here she is. All 68 pounds of her (dressed) I would have loved to be trying this on a 150 pound deer but beggars can't be choosers. 










I made three shots from 10 yards with my homemade 48 pound longbow that shoots an arrow at a blazing 142 FPS. the first two were through the ribs and the final one hit the shoulder blade at the point where the flat and the "T" meet, right near the ball joint. This is (in my opinion) the largest and thickest bone section in the upper shoulder. I admit that hitting this far forward is not a good place to aim on a live animal but things happen beyond our control. I of course hit this spot with pin point precision on purpose.










The rib shots were complete pass throughs but the shoulder shot ended up with just the fletches sticking out entrance side. I know there were no lungs in the deer but they don't offer much in the way of resistance any way. Also consider that this deer was cold and stiff as rigor mortise had set in so I consider all things equal. 









Right off the bat, I noticed the "S" shaped cuts that single bevel heads will produce. This was the case on both the entrance and exit holes.



















I then removed the shoulder and boned it out.










Just as described, the "S" shaped cut and the bone had split completely being held at the joint end by only some soft fibers.



















This sort of thing is not necessary with todays super fast and powerful bows hunting whitetails but for those using traditional archery gear, or those going after large or dangerous game, we are looking for every advantage we can get.

Speaking of homemade bows, There are far too many pictures in this build along I did for the last bow I built. If your interested in seeing it from start to finsih as well as the homemade finger tab and arm guard, you can view it at these links.

Part 1

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=81

Part 2

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=227

for the homemade quiver, go here.

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=415

It all pays off in the end.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Should you want to see how I built my portable hunting shack, you can view the build along here.










http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=543


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## Cold Weather

Racid

kewl that's a lot of work.

I think only those who show the dedication that you have demonstrated should be allowed to participate in archery seasons.

you've demonstrated that it is possible. All those who use those lazy compounds or xbows have no place in state archery seasons.


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## Cold Weather

Rancid

I am extremely impressed with the tipi. it truly looks awesome and you should be proud.

hunting with a bow you made yourself in tipi you made yourself..WOW!


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## ocd-hunter

*anti- cross bow*



Tim50 said:


> Read the post not just what you want it to say! Your land you do what you want!


It is archery season , not cross bow season. It should be a level playing field, its going to ruin the sport of archery . Why take a bow when you can take a cross bow? Before they had compound bows, people hunted with long bows and recurves. Now that there is the compound bow, how many people use the others. The same thing will eventually happen to the compound bows. I have nothing against senior or disabled hunters using crossbows, it let's them enjoy the sport also.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> go make a self bow and make your own arrows like Saxton Pope and we'll listen to you


I'm afraid you are going to disagree with me on this but since your comment stated that the opinion of those that make their own gear is the opinion you will listen to,  so I thought it proper to qualify my opinion. WI, is the Nation's birthplace of bowhunting as a licensed sport. Roy Case took a deer in WI in much the same manner I did but he did it back in 1931. He defined bowhunting. Pope and Young and Ishi and Fred Bear and Glenn St. Charles and others made bowhunting into the sport it is today and defined it. Bowhunting is easily defined but you will not agree with my opinion of bowhunting and what is bowhunting gear. 

You should know that I am a crossbow owner (bought my first in 1982 and two more Hortons since then) I am also a member of the American Crossbow Federation. You will not like my opinion of crossbows in the WI archery deer season.


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## Jim C

ocd-hunter said:


> It is archery season , not cross bow season. It should be a level playing field, its going to ruin the sport of archery . Why take a bow when you can take a cross bow? Before they had compound bows, people hunted with long bows and recurves. Now that there is the compound bow, how many people use the others. The same thing will eventually happen to the compound bows. I have nothing against senior or disabled hunters using crossbows, it let's them enjoy the sport also.


1) crossbows have been part of ARCHERY alot longer than compounds so your rants are without merit

2) who cares what others use--when compounds came out recurves dropped in popularity. Now recurves and traditional bows are far far more popular than they were in say 1980

3) you are not competing against other hunters. You are not hurt by what someone else uses. Your self esteem is not at issue nor should you care about others

4) it is not your position to protect the purity of archery (whatever that means) by telling other people they should not be able to choose a weapon that has no UNFAIR advantages over what is currently allowed


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## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> Rancid
> 
> I am extremely impressed with the tipi. it truly looks awesome and you should be proud.
> 
> hunting with a bow you made yourself in tipi you made yourself..WOW!


Also, broadheads are not the only blades important to bowhunters. You might as well hunt with a homemade knife.

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=68

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=725

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=568

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=951


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## Cold Weather

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'm afraid you are going to disagree with me on this but since your comment stated that the opinion of those that make their own gear is the opinion you will listen to, so I thought it proper to qualify my opinion. WI, is the Nation's birthplace of bowhunting as a licensed sport. Roy Case took a deer in WI in much the same manner I did but he did it back in 1931. He defined bowhunting. Pope and Young and Ishi and Fred Bear and Glenn St. Charles and others made bowhunting into the sport it is today and defined it. Bowhunting is easily defined but you will not agree with my opinion of bowhunting and what is bowhunting gear.
> 
> You should know that I am a crossbow owner (bought my first in 1982 and two more Hortons since then) I am also a member of the American Crossbow Federation. You will not like my opinion of crossbows in the WI archery deer season.


Rancid

I am totally impressed how much you can make yourself and the obvious quality and workmanship you are able to produce.

a lot has changed since the time of Roy Case, Fred Bear, and Pope and Young. People use compounds, release aids, expandable broadheads, laser rangefinders, etc....etc..

they defined bowhunting with the modern equipment of the day and frankly what they think or wouldn't think is irrelevant today.

if we stayed with as you call their "definition" we would use none of the equipment.

xbows have been part of archery for times before AD and it's archery equipment.

I shoot and Excalibur xbow, but for the early season I am going out with my 21Century longbow with XX75 arrows, 4 fletch tipped with Black Diamond broadheads.

I will probably take to the field at some point with my compounds and then later with my xbow.

you don't have the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't use-what I use has no delerious effect on you-and ultimately archery and bowhunting are recreational activities.

I always laugh and marvel when someone claims xbow archers are lazy...I've worked in archery retail and seen the other side of archery and bowhunters.

now, since you participate in this forum, I think its fair to assume you have a passion for archery-maybe read archery magazines, attend shoots, etc..

that's great.

I've also seen countless guys come in who have a real modest interest in archery-I would say no interest-but just want to kill a deer. They shoot old obsolete equipment, buy absolutely the cheapest stuff, lousy shots, dont read any magazines and know nothing of latest equipment or how to set up their bows..

and, at shoots I've seen stickbow archers who cant shoot..really shortdraw..etc..

now, those people are indeed lazy because they dont try to get better or even learn...


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## Cold Weather

Rancid

I've met Glenn St Charles. I actually sat down with him and a friend of mine when he had his archery shop in Seattle.

I don't know how you feel about treestands, but I can tell you Glenn doesn't feel using them constitutes "hunting".

When he had the museum there was lots of archery history. Fred Bear's hat, bows made by Saxton Pope, info on Howard Hill (Glenn knew him) books,,etc..

it was very interesting, but what was missing was any mention of compound bows..I mean NONE.


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## Cold Weather

Jim C said:


> 1) crossbows have been part of ARCHERY alot longer than compounds so your rants are without merit
> 
> 2) who cares what others use--when compounds came out recurves dropped in popularity. Now recurves and traditional bows are far far more popular than they were in say 1980
> 
> 3) you are not competing against other hunters. You are not hurt by what someone else uses. Your self esteem is not at issue nor should you care about others
> 
> 4) it is not your position to protect the purity of archery (whatever that means) by telling other people they should not be able to choose a weapon that has no UNFAIR advantages over what is currently allowed


JimC

I would venture to guess more people shoot traditional archery today than in traditional archery's heyday of the 50s-60s.

a lot of the claims I read are very similar to when the compound bow began to gain popularity in the 70s.

the claims against xbows being allowed is always the same-but what opponents dont seem to recognize is that we have long standing examples of OH, WY and ONTARIO and more recent introductions in PA etc.

game depts do consult each other and find these anti xbow claims totally groundless.

and the pro side wins because they have facts and not emotion.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Just more drivel from the same old bunch. Come back when you have some facts that xbows have caused harm. Until then all you have is page after page of "I think, I feel, I want" and more importantly " I DON'T WANT". The emotionally driven response isn't going to cut it. Don't believe me? Read the topic of this thread and get back to me when and if you can figure it out. 

RC you forgot to add in your questionnaire! LOL :wink: Totally clueless as usual.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> go make a self bow and make your own arrows like Saxton Pope and we'll listen to you



I did not think that was genuine but I gave it a shot. To better understand my point of view (since you said you would listen) Read the entirety of this thread. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1272183

You can choose to disregard the posts of those from the other states posters who spend their time trying to convince themselves they are right and instead focus on the WI situation. The other side has one mantra. they like to insult and call names. I have spent much time in my current role and know full well what it means when the other side attacks the person rather than discuss the ideas at hand. That is a clear and obvious tone used by many here. (one need only look up one post to see an example)


Trying to rationalize and justify are the strongest of human drives. Trying to convince ones self and getting angry with those that stand in your way of convincing yourself is a pattern that is very predictable and is repeated here regularly. Bowhunting is defined and a very specific thing. There are many here that want to change that and hope to convince themselves that that should be overlooked or ignored so they can feel better about how they want to define bowhunting. These self evident truths can't be denied no matter how angry and insulting and loud these guys get. The instant gratification society wants bowhunters to stop reminding them of this and they want revisionist history (or a complete erasure of history) so they can live with themselves (justification and rationalization) and their side of the issue. They would do well to understand "anagnorisis"

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/22338/anagnorisis


I am a bowhunter. There are other "Similar" ways to go about killing game but it is not and never will be the same despite how invested some get in trying to convince themselves otherwise, so they tear down and call names. Read the WI thread I posted to better understand that reason the majority of bowhunters in WI hold the opinions they do.


I will now wait for the usual assembly of rage filled name callers and insulters to do what they do best and give you a first hand look at what I just explained.


----------



## BigBirdVA

LOL ! Bowhunting is defined by the state. Not P&Y, not WBH, and not you or even this forum. You can state what you feel is bowhuting all day. In the end, and it's getting closer every day, others make that decision. And you will live and hunt by it too. 

This rationalize and justify by people you posted on is actually pretty funny. That's exactly what some have been doing for years to support another strong human emotion - greed. But the last emotion - hate - is where some are at in this now. They hate what's ahead and what has occurred. Nice try at it but as usual you fall a little short. Maybe you need some new questions. 

8. What happened and how did we end up losing ? 


Also all those posts and pics of "look at what I can do" also make me think of another human emotion. But we'll leave that off for now. :wink: Hint - It isn't all about you.


----------



## Jim C

Many thanks that we have a First Amendment which means Rancid Crabtree or Glenn St. Charles religion is not applicable to me. Bowhunting isn't a religion and it is not blasphemous to use a crossbow. 

and let's stop filibustering this thread with reams of non-applicable posts RC


----------



## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> Many thanks that we have a First Amendment which means Rancid Crabtree or Glenn St. Charles religion is not applicable to me. Bowhunting isn't a religion and it is not blasphemous to use a crossbow.
> 
> and let's stop filibustering this thread with reams of non-applicable posts RC


That's another big flaw of their argument. That a majority has to approve what others can use. If we had that in place for everything we would still be back in the 60's on some things. 

RC can't help but shift any xbow post to WI and himself. What happened to it's not my state RC? LOL


----------



## Cold Weather

Rancid

I was and am sincere what I said about your craftmanship.

I never met Fred Bear but I've known people that knew him. I recall meeting Tom Jennings who worked with Bear Archery on a xbow called the Devastor.

Tom told me about a letter that he and Fred Bear had received (it was addressed to both of them) from a bowhunter who was upset that they had developed a xbow.

Tom told me they couldn't understand what the problem was.

you can believe what I told you about archery retail. I had a guy in who had a late 70s era Bear Polar LTD and wanted arrows for it. He demanded the arrows be aluminum and insisted I leave them full length and just glue the inserts in.

I had guys buy $20 releases because they wanted a "trigger" but because they virtually never used their bow except for archery season wouldn't invest in anything better.

Had a guy in who lived in an area with "a lot of deer" who was going thru the Buy and Sell to buy a bow because new bows were too expensive.

I think you can imagine what someone who knows nothing about archery and bows would end up buying with cost the only determing factor.


----------



## Cold Weather

Rancid

Thank you for the photos

I have family in WI and plan to go there next year. I have never been to the Compton traditional shoot in MI but was thinking it would be neat to attend. Do you know how far it is from Madison?

My sister's husband has family in the UP and they said I am welcome to come.

When I was in WI I got a tour of Mathews, and also went to an archery shop called Little John in Marshall WI and another one in Jainesville. Also went to the large Cabelas store outside of Madison.

I've attended one Longbow Safari, and Trad Rendevous outside Seattle, and went to one PBS show to look at the trad bows.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Since this is about MI inclusion I guess we need to stay on topic. A task some can't do and try to spam any post with their weapon of choice. Hey isn't OCD another word for that? 

Anyway here's what the people can look forward to using this fall. 






























































































































































































Coming soon to a state near you...........:wink:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> Do you know how far it is from Madison?
> 
> My sister's husband has family in the UP and they said I am welcome to come.


That would be about 250 miles. The Compton shoot is held in Berrien Springs Michigan in the far Southwest part of the LP




BigBirdVA said:


> Since this is about MI inclusion I guess we need to stay on topic. A task some can't do and try to spam any post with their weapon of choice. Hey isn't OCD another word for that?


As you can see Cold Weather, they are very predictable in their insults and name calling. It's interesting to watch.


----------



## RxBowhunter

BigBirdVA and Rancid Crabtree,

*Since you will not be changing each others minds on the topic, please keep it civil*


----------



## Cold Weather

Rancid

you sound like a fine fellow. Maybe I could camp next to you.

even in traditional archery the equipment has changed-now there is carbon in the limbs-wood was once the dominant material for arrows but reading Trad Bowhunting I see carbon.

carbon arrows and aluminum arrows are modern arrows.

they allowed at Compton's?


----------



## awshucks

> As you can see Cold Weather, they are very predictable in their insults and name calling. It's interesting to watch.


I was saddened to see this has taken such a toll on you, rancid, re: the nail biting.


----------



## missedabiggun

Okay...I've stayed out of this...but now we have a problem....of all those crossbow pictures...no Parkers????


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hey RC since you're so worried about the rules..........

7. Do not interrupt a thread 's content direction to bring attention to another agenda or product.
MI Inclusion ! Got it now? 





missedabiggun said:


> Okay...I've stayed out of this...but now we have a problem....of all those crossbow pictures...no Parkers????


Sorry.......... That's an easy fix.


----------



## Redclub

Lets see I am one of the lazy crossbow hunters,69 years old, handicapped as far as shooting a bow is concerned,So Tues. I am leaving for a solo elk hunt with the x-bow (peep sight). I will stay in a tent (not a campground) with no one around, Could be there for 3 weeks. Kinda primitive (or maybe a little crazy) but wait I am taking unfair advantage all because of a x-bow. How am I going to get an elk out(hopefully) a couple miles back,I will though because I am NOT LAZY. Oh public land besides. 1400 miles away. 
Redclub


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> even in traditional archery the equipment has changed-now there is carbon in the limbs-wood was once the dominant material for arrows but reading Trad Bowhunting I see carbon.
> 
> carbon arrows and aluminum arrows are modern arrows.
> 
> they allowed at Compton's?



Yes, they are. Carbon is really nothing new and is really a variation of things like sinew and fish/hide glue and then fiberglass but materials have never defined bowhunting. Shooting a bow and arrow while bowhunting, the drawing of the bow, the human power and related muscle strain to overcome the peak weight and full draw and hold and release and the effort and dedication required to master it is the heart of the definition. It is a challenge and gives the animal the maximum opportunity to escape with its life. 




awshucks said:


> I was saddened to see this has taken such a toll on you, rancid, re: the nail biting.



As you can see cold weather, my predictions and description are continually born out here. Focusing on the person rather than discuss the matter in the arena of ideas. The constant attempts to derail a rational discussion and attempting to draw focus away from bowhunting's definition because its just to uncomfortable to deal with.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> You stated that "you've demonstrated that it is possible."
> 
> It's been possible for a long long time and has been proven effective. There is bowhunting and bowhunters and then there is something else that is close but not the same, despite what some here try desperately to have others believe (actually, Its clear they really hope to eventually convince themselves). Both will get you the same dead game animals (if that is your goal) but they will never be confused as the same thing. Some want to kill a deer in the easiest possible way and ignore what bowhunting really is. By the way, if your going to hunt with homemade gear, you need to complete the outfit.
> 
> 
> I have made guillie suits before and found them to be heavy and hot to wear. I wanted one that is lightweight and of course cheap. I made this jacket from Landscaping fabric. It is inexpensive and easy to obtain. The 15 and 20 year types are the strongest.
> 
> 
> I used several colors of spray paint to put a camo pattern on the fabric
> 
> 
> I used an old flannel jacket as a pattern to cut the pieces from
> 
> I added a leafy pattern by sewing stips of "leaves" to the jacket. I plan to use this jacket for bow hunting so I did not put leaves on the upper left chest area.
> 
> I used velcro as the closure because a 36 inch zipper is expensive. (did I mention I an cheap) It was adhesive backed but GOOP is a great glue and I trust it more that sticky tape. GOOP is one of the best glues known to man. I swear you can stick an ice cube to a stick of butter with this stuff. I also added velcro to the cuffs so they can be tightened


Cool Suits there Crabtree however I still disagree with your characterization of what YOU THINK a bowhunter is.... "There is bowhunting and bowhunters and then there is something else that is close but not the same, despite what some here try desperately to have others believe (actually, Its clear they really hope to eventually convince themselves). Both will get you the same dead game animals (if that is your goal) but they will never be confused as the same thing. Some want to kill a deer in the easiest possible way and ignore what bowhunting really is."

You make bowhunting out to be some sort of religious experience, which it pretty much is for me, but like any religion, we have freedom of choice here in America, and that includes crossbows.

Your dedication to this suit, for example, shows how talented you really are when it comes to bowhunting, but please, tone down your rhetoric about how lofty you are as opposed to others, it is not up to you how I hunt, or anyone hunts. Contribute your strengths, Crabtree, and leave the crap behind for others.

Much Aloha.... :beer:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> As you can see cold weather, my predictions and description are continually born out here. Focusing on the person rather than discuss the matter in the arena of ideas. The constant attempts to derail a rational discussion and attempting to draw focus away from bowhunting's definition because its just to uncomfortable to deal with.


Did you even bother to read the topic? Or was it just another chance to do the usual RC sequence of events we've seen so much of in the past? 

The matter here is inclusion in MI. Not what you posted. Maybe you should practice what you preach for once. This isn't about what 3% define, it's about what another state decided was bow hunting. You know the government - the people that have the final say. But you'll get to understand all that first hand one day. :wink:


----------



## Cold Weather

Rancid

it's how you define bowhunting but the reality is that it has become so watered down with the introduction and development of the compound bow and its accessories..

but with that, it's obvious people are still embracing traditional archery.

I feel the compound bow is at least partially responsible for that. In the late 70s and 80s virtually I never saw people shooting traditional bows but now I see more than ever..

I would bet you more people NOW shoot traditional bows (at least partially) than when traditional bows were dominant.

the compound has brought more people into the sport-and the xbow will as well.

now, I dont believe the seasons will be flooded or overrun because it hasnt happened anywhere and you can still practice archery/bowhunting according to your definition.

xbow archers arent interested in restricting you but you are in them but to do so you have to offer a rational reason-ie more hunters would harm the resource-and those who make the laws wont base them on emotion.

I see xbows becoming more and more accepted..archery magazines are now having xbow articles-one just published CROSSBOW..

xbow articles in Peterson's Hunting..never saw them before...

I dont expect a discussion over the net will change your mind but from what Ive seen you wont be able to stop it and as popularity grows youll accept it-as people have accepted compounds.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> Rancid it's how you define bowhunting



This precedes me by a very long time. History defined bowhunting. 




Cold Weather said:


> but the reality is that it has become so watered down with the introduction and development of the compound bow and its accessories.


I will disagree because drawing back a bow and reaching its peak draw weight (whatever weight the archer is capable of at the time of the shot) has never changed regardless of accessories, materials, or the design of the bow. The definition of taking game with a bow and arrow is the same as it was all through history. During that time, something very close to that has been introduced in the seasons created for hunting with a bow and arrow but it is not the same as bowhunting. 



Cold Weather said:


> but with that, it's obvious people are still embracing traditional archery.


Very true. The foundation has not changed and many many bowhunters enjoy the sport they defined.



Cold Weather said:


> I would bet you more people NOW shoot traditional bows (at least partially) than when traditional bows were dominant.


I would agree simply by virtue of the fact that there are more people bowhunting today than at any other time in North American history.



Cold Weather said:


> the compound has brought more people into the sport-and the xbow will as well.


The compound did indeed and the xbow will introduce people into something very similar to bowhunting.



Cold Weather said:


> xbow archers arent interested in restricting you but you are in them but to do so you have to offer a rational reason-ie more hunters would harm the resource-and those who make the laws wont base them on emotion.


You really need to read the WI thread to understand the point of view from those in the diary state. It is not at all based on emotion but rather is all based on the resource and the season. 



Cold Weather said:


> I see xbows becoming more and more accepted..archery magazines are now having xbow articles-one just published CROSSBOW..


I agree. The instant gratification society is partially to blame but the magazine component is driven by only $$$$$ That is why anybody advertises.



Cold Weather said:


> I dont expect a discussion over the net will change your mind


I was thinking the same thing but you did say you would listen.



Cold Weather said:


> but from what Ive seen you wont be able to stop it



That is what I am tasked with doing in WI. To do otherwise would go against our memberships wishes. I know market forces and a society that wants to kill a deer with the least amount of effort expended will eventually trump all. When and how this plays out in WI is very important and needs proper direction. At some point in the future, the majority of hunters may want crossbows allowed in the WI deer season. At that point, the Conservation Congress will bear that out. If the clear majority want this, then there is no stopping it. That is not the case and has not been the case for the 80 years, WI has held an archery deer season. You are correct in that allowing crossbow hunting will not prevent bowhunters from bowhunting and people will always understand the difference. 




Cold Weather said:


> and as popularity grows youll accept it-as people have accepted compounds.



At some point in the future, when the public opinion grows to the point that it drives changes in the WI laws, there will certainly be those that accept it. Based on where today's society is headed and what it values, that is clear and no doubt, some disinterested folks will call it bowhunting . Bowhunters however will not but will certainly acknowledge that something similar to bowhunting is taking place during a time while bowhunters are bowhunting. Crossbow hunting is similar to bowhunting but not the same. If it were, we would not be having this dicussion and the handicapped and elderly would not be allowed speacial permission to use a similar weapon in a season hunted by bowhunters.


----------



## xbow1

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Crossbow hunting is similar to bowhunting but not the same.


Now you're starting to get it. 

What you really know about crossbow hunting is next to nothing at all.

You have no previous experience, period.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> This precedes me by a very long time. History defined bowhunting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will disagree because drawing back a bow and reaching its peak draw weight (whatever weight the archer is capable of at the time of the shot) has never changed regardless of accessories, materials, or the design of the bow. The definition of taking game with a bow and arrow is the same as it was all through history. During that time, something very close to that has been introduced in the seasons created for hunting with a bow and arrow but it is not the same as bowhunting.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true. The foundation has not changed and many many bowhunters enjoy the sport they defined.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree simply by virtue of the fact that there are more people bowhunting today than at any other time in North American history.
> 
> 
> 
> The compound did indeed and the xbow will introduce people into something very similar to bowhunting.
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to read the WI thread to understand the point of view from those in the diary state. It is not at all based on emotion but rather is all based on the resource and the season.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. The instant gratification society is partially to blame but the magazine component is driven by only $$$$$ That is why anybody advertises.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the same thing but you did say you would listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I am tasked with doing in WI. To do otherwise would go against our memberships wishes. I know market forces and a society that wants to kill a deer with the least amount of effort expended will eventually trump all. When and how this plays out in WI is very important and needs proper direction. At some point in the future, the majority of hunters may want crossbows allowed in the WI deer season. At that point, the Conservation Congress will bear that out. If the clear majority want this, then there is no stopping it. That is not the case and has not been the case for the 80 years, WI has held an archery deer season. You are correct in that allowing crossbow hunting will not prevent bowhunters from bowhunting and people will always understand the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At some point in the future, when the public opinion grows to the point that it drives changes in the WI laws, there will certainly be those that accept it. Based on where today's society is headed and what it values, that is clear and no doubt, some disinterested folks will call it bowhunting . Bowhunters however will not but will certainly acknowledge that something similar to bowhunting is taking place during a time while bowhunters are bowhunting. Crossbow hunting is similar to bowhunting but not the same. If it were, we would not be having this dicussion and the handicapped and elderly would not be allowed speacial permission to use a similar weapon in a season hunted by bowhunters.


Again the topic is Inclusion in MI not what some 3% club in another state thinks. But that's not the point is it? It's to turn it into another xbow debate and get the thread locked down. When positive things xbow related occur the plan of operation is to make it go away. Either by shifting topics or a locked thread. 

Such a transparent game we're playing. Nice try but it's not working.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

xbow1 said:


> Now you're starting to get it.
> 
> What you really know about crossbow hunting is next to nothing at all.
> 
> You have no previous experience, period.



You will want to go back and read up. I bought my first crossbow back in 1982. I shot the hell out of it (including stump shooting) and still shoot it. Since then I have purchased two more (both Hortons) for my Father and do all his broadhead tuning and bolt building and sighting in and drawing back for him. I have even killed my share of vermin with a crossbow on our family farm. Aside from years of shooting them I also take him hunting with his crossbow and erect ground blinds and do his calling and rattling, etc. Rest assured that my nearly 30 years of involvement and exposure and usage of crossbows far exceeds the majority of those that will be hunting with one in MI.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

BigBirdVA said:


> Again the topic is Inclusion in MI not what some 3% club in another state thinks. But that's not the point is it? It's to turn it into another xbow debate and get the thread locked down. When positive things xbow related occur the plan of operation is to make it go away. Either by shifting topics or a locked thread.
> 
> Such a transparent game we're playing. Nice try but it's not working.



Being in a polite discussion with cold water may seem foreign to you since two people that share differing opinions can carry on an adult conversation, you may want to direct him to stop talking to me and asking questions. :wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Again this is a thread about inclusion in MI. What does your dislike for xbows and a whopping post of some event you attended have to do with it? Are you really that thick? No of course not........ just part of the plan to do as you wish and shift things over to your agenda.


----------



## xbow1

Trust me, RC, you are not and never will be a crossbow hunter, especially if you don't stop mentally masturbating in front of everyone.

That only goes over with politicians, the rest of us think it's gross.


----------



## missedabiggun

Thank you...and you even picked the right model!!!!


----------



## BigBirdVA

missedabiggun said:


> Thank you...and you even picked the right model!!!!


I looked at buying one of them. And they're made here in VA. too. They were the xbow used to demonstrate to the VDGIF that xbows are indeed archery when VA looked at full inclusion. 

I guess you could abbreviate that to *WI* for short, you know "Went Inclusion" :wink: Or was that Want's Inclusion ? Kind of the same thing. :wink:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

BigBirdVA said:


> Again this is a thread about inclusion in MI. What does your dislike for xbows and a whopping post of some event you attended have to do with it? Are you really that thick? No of course not........ just part of the plan to do as you wish and shift things over to your agenda.



Yes, I understand this is uncomfortable for you to read. Self evident truths, history and definitions have that effect on a few. Relax a bit and take it all in. It's worth the read. This is a internet chat room. This is not life and death. This whole hate and anger thing is a bit over the top. I'll help lighten the mood a bit.


Full inclusion in MI Whooo Hooooo!!! :whoo:


In your face bowhunters. :RockOn:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Not me that goes out of their way to try to inject my version of recreation and / or it's all about me into every xbow related post. Nice try again but - FAIL !


History doesn't bother me. I can view it and accept change all at the same time. I understand what real bowhunting is and I understand when it changed and I understand it will change even more. Some can't grasp that part. I also understand when something is a perceived threat and when it's real. Choice is not a threat. Mandating to someone is. Keep trying you might get there one day.


----------



## Cold Weather

Rancid

do you know the date of the Compton shoot next year?

I have a copy of Hunting with a Bow and Arrow by Saxton Pope. There are several references to taking game 65yrds and Pope claims shooting to about 100 yards.

I also have a copy of Hunting the Hard Way by Howard Hill. He claims to have shot elk at 200 yards.

I feel the xbow victory represents a milestone for the pro xbow side and a major defeat for those opposed.


----------



## Jim C

Outcome based analysis is generally dishonest. The anti xbow people have always started with the premise that more people in the woods is bad and they work backward to justify crossbow bans

1) at first we were told xbows are bad because they were "too accurate and too powerful"

2) we were told in the "MARLOW REPORT" that a crossbow novice can outshoot pro compound archers (a bald faced lie) and a crossbow in the year 2000 shot "almost twice as fast as most modern compound bows" (another bald faced lie-I was a browning staff shooter in 96 with a bow making 310 FPS)

3) then the antis started whining about "drawing and holding" by hand yet they ignored that the compound bow and a release both negate those requirements

4) now the big argument is "drawing in the presence of game even though I can hold an Ohio legal hunting compound at full draw for several minutes. indeed, at my shop we put lasers on an excalibur hunting crossbow and my Hoyt hunting compound (60 pounds, 65% letoff) and we saw how long we could keep the laser in the ten ring on a McKenzie Medium buck at 20 yards. several archers could hold steady l onger with their compounds


no matter how similar compounds and crossbows are, people like RC will keep changing the litmus test to justify selfishness and greed so as to exclude other citizens and taxpayers from using a crossbow.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Went over to another site, you know the one no one bookmarks. Was looking in the MI forum and they had a post on this. Just to lighten things up a bit here it is: 


> Other than someone disabled, anybody who uses a crossbow is not my friend. If you are reading these words, know that I think you are a traitor and scum.


Uh....... taking things a bit too serious are we? Got a good laugh out of that one.


----------



## Cold Weather

BigBirdVA said:


> Went over to another site, you know the one no one bookmarks. Was looking in the MI forum and they had a post on this. Just to lighten things up a bit here it is:
> 
> 
> Uh....... taking things a bit too serious are we? Got a good laugh out of that one.


I bet that site begins with a B and ends with an E. I haven't posted there in years.

that quote is pathetic and so childish. Some people take what is a recreational activity too far.

regarding drawing in presence of game-should we ban blinds as well. The new blinds allow one to shoot thru and game cant see in. Minimize scent as well.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> Rancid do you know the date of the Compton shoot next year?


It's normally in June. See the link.

http://www.comptontraditional.com/read.cfm?id=4



Cold Weather said:


> I feel the xbow victory represents a milestone for the pro xbow side and a major defeat for those opposed.


I would say that it is definitely a victory for those that don't (or haven't) wanted to be a bowhunter or they already would be. The practice, and discipline and commitment and challenge of being a bowhunter is not embraced by everybody. That is clear in todays society so some that want the advantages and ease previously offered the handicapped and elderly can now be used by other . Now, MI hunters will be able to avoid all that and do something similar to bowhunting so yes, a definite boon for that mind set. As far as a defeat for bowhunters, I would say no because bowhutners will continue to bowhunt. If MI is like WI, it is mostly privately held land so the landowners will determine what weapons will be allowed. Bowhunters that hunt public land will continue to bowhunt and they will deal with those that are doing something similar to bowhunting but not the same. Bowhunters and bowhunting will continue on strong.

The state kept them separate and unique with a stamp and harvest recording. This is a good thing because they are different activities, its good to record that info.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Similar only by the definition of a few. The state makes the determination not some 3% club or elitist group of greed mongers. MI says it's bow hunting there. Done deal. 

Oh the different harvest recording, that's to show the few greedy whiners it doesn't matter. Besides how does it affect your hunt? It doesn't. It's the change so close to home that scares the heck out of you. 

But don't worry the people that did it took notes and are helping others on what to do and not do to get inclusion in their state.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

BigBirdVA said:


> Similar only by the definition of a few. The state makes the determination not some 3% club or elitist group of greed mongers. MI says it's bow hunting there. Done deal.



Well you would like to think so wouldn't you, but....... No. The term bowhunter was coined by Roy case when he fought for the nation's very first bowhunting season in WI back in the 1930's. That term defines a very specific action and sport and weapon. That self evident truth and definition is not available to recreate to mean what you would like it to mean. You are confusing crossbows being allowed in the season bowhunters created and defined and partisipate in as to mean that crossbow users are suddenly bowhunters. That is not the case at all. 

Each state, no doubt still maintains a very specific description of what a crossbow is and poundage and bolt length, etc. That is because they are different from bows and bowhunting. I am a bowhunter and what I do and the tools I use can in no way be confused with what you do and use. I would expect many a crossbow hunter to try and convince themselves that they are something else but embrace who you are. You can certainly use the term "Crossbow hunter". :wink:


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## xbow1

Jim C said:


> No matter how similar compounds and crossbows are, people like RC will keep changing the litmus test to justify selfishness and greed so as to exclude other citizens and taxpayers from using a crossbow.


Yes, this is exactly correct.

The elite will continue to pretend they're the average person while all along, keeping the average person...out.


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Well you would like to think so wouldn't you, but....... No. The term bowhunter was coined by Roy case when he fought for the nation's very first bowhunting season in WI back in the 1930's. That term defines a very specific action and sport and weapon. That self evident truth and definition is not available to recreate to mean what you would like it to mean. You are confusing crossbows being allowed in the season bowhunters created and defined and partisipate in as to mean that crossbow users are suddenly bowhunters. That is not the case at all.
> 
> Each state, no doubt still maintains a very specific description of what a crossbow is and poundage and bolt length, etc. That is because they are different from bows and bowhunting. I am a bowhunter and what I do and the tools I use can in no way be confused with what you do and use. I would expect many a crossbow hunter to try and convince themselves that they are something else but embrace who you are. You can certainly use the term "Crossbow hunter". :wink:


That is such hogswallow... bowhunting dates back to the Stone Age. Crossbow hunting dates back to before Christ Jesus by some many centuries. The brothers Thompson, the Witchery of Archery provided an impetus to Americans to pick up the Bow and Arrow. Saxon Pope and Arthur Young wrote of Hunting with the Bow and Arrow in 1928. A crossbow by EVERY DEFINITION throughout history refers to it as a BOW. This definition as written by the NAA/NFAA is a *******ization reflecting the target archery popularity of the time. 

The fact that these "target" archers were IGNORANT isn't bad, but when no-one lifted a pen to decry the single most important contribution to Archery as what was advanced by Hollis Wilbur Allen in June1966, the idea of "Bowhunters" as defined by anyone previously went out the window.

The idea that Pope and Young and Bowhunters yearning to adopt the "easy way" would be so swayed by the compound bow makes any argument you or anyone else makes as to the "purity" of archery is fricken mockery, and how ANYONE can actually make the arguments that they do against crossbows FOR HUNTING in archery seasons is SHAMEFUL and pointless. 

That Pope and Young swayed to the Compound because the namesakes "would have wanted it that way" is absolutey ludicrous. Pope and Young were PURISTS, making their own bows and frankly speaking, to me the only damn trophies that really deserve their title would be of bows whittled from a tree branch.... or core/stave... whatever...

No my friend, bowhunting goes back to the beginning of time, crossbow hunting goes back to the beginnings of enlightened time and now finally into the 21st century, so too will the rest of the United States.


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## rattus58

Oh.... and I forgot... those who pick up the crossbow, will be crossbow hunters.... fancy that, just as those who pick up a compound bow, are compound bow hunters and are NOT bowhunters. A bow hunter, by any definition would be me.....  and my longbow.... :thumbs_up and maybe even my recurves and possibly even my glass and carbons..... but that is sorta taking away from the "flavor" tho aint it?

Aloha...


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## Rancid Crabtree

Sort of, but no. The term bowhunter is now easily applied to those days since that is all you have known it to be called so yes, you can now (in retrospect) call them bowhunters . there were bowhunters Back in 20's and befor but they didn't know it by that name until it was defined later. Cavemen werent cavemen back then until we named them much later. Bowhunting is defined to meaning a certain activity and in using certain tools. Those famous names you mention defined it and the tools. Crossbow hunting as defined by each state will remain different from bowhunting. Longbows, recurves and compound all share a singular definition is the states. Those same states define crossbows as a differnt tool with different requirements. Min. draw typ. 100 pounds. Min bolt lenght 14 or 17 inches depending on the state. Must have a working safety. The states mention hunting with a bow and arrow and a crossbow for a very good reason and some enfoce a crossbow stamp. They are two seperate but simillar activity so it's understandable that some will incorrectly want to considered bowhunters.

Look to Ohio. The Meca of the crossbow world. Their hunting regulation continue to define and seperate the two weapons.

"BOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of limbs, and a string which is hand held, hand drawn, and held in a drawn position by hand or a hand held mechanical release. This would include compound and recurve bows."

"CROSSBOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of traverse limbs and a string, mounted on a stock at least twenty-five inches in length, and having a working safety."

WI states the following:

"Bow" means any bow, drawn and held by and through the effort of the person releasing it, but does not include crossbow.""

"Crossbow" means any device using a bow which, once drawn, is held solely by means other than the effort of the person firing it." The crossbow must have a minimum draw of 100 pounds, a working safety, and use at least 14-inch long bolts equipped with broadheads


The states define the two as different and it is well understood that the act of using the two different weapons is not the same. Longbows, Recurves and compounds are used for bowhunting. Crossbows in some states are allowed to be used but they are taking up an action similar too but not the same as bowhunting. What you and I do and the weapons we use are not the same. I am by definition a bowhunter. You are a crossbow hunter. There is nothing wrong with that. Embrace it. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1288742

http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/oct96/bowhunt.htm


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## Jim C

Cold Weather said:


> I bet that site begins with a B and ends with an E. I haven't posted there in years.
> 
> that quote is pathetic and so childish. Some people take what is a recreational activity too far.
> 
> regarding drawing in presence of game-should we ban blinds as well. The new blinds allow one to shoot thru and game cant see in. Minimize scent as well.


the owner of that site is rather cowardly-he spent years bashing xbows but when a couple of us reamed steamed and drycleaned his sorry nonsense he got all butt hurt


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## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Well you would like to think so wouldn't you, but....... No. The term bowhunter was coined by Roy case when he fought for the nation's very first bowhunting season in WI back in the 1930's. That term defines a very specific action and sport and weapon. That self evident truth and definition is not available to recreate to mean what you would like it to mean. You are confusing crossbows being allowed in the season bowhunters created and defined and partisipate in as to mean that crossbow users are suddenly bowhunters. That is not the case at all.
> 
> Each state, no doubt still maintains a very specific description of what a crossbow is and poundage and bolt length, etc. That is because they are different from bows and bowhunting. I am a bowhunter and what I do and the tools I use can in no way be confused with what you do and use. I would expect many a crossbow hunter to try and convince themselves that they are something else but embrace who you are. You can certainly use the term "Crossbow hunter". :wink:


You've got to be kidding me? LOL Boy do you have it bad. I actually feel sorry for you. Sorry to inform you but bow hunting for the most part is purely a recreational activity. You can breath anything you like into it but it doesn't mean anyone else is buying it. Sorry to inform you but you're not superior or special. You don't have any special powers and your enjoyment of the woods is no more important or meaningful to you than it is to anyone else. Hate to break the news to you but the path to Zen doesn't require a bow approved by WBH in your hands to get there. 


BTW the definition of a bow dates back well before the elitist convinced the state to allow them to play in the woods before others. They didn't define a bow, they only defined a way to exclude the masses and keep their level of exclusive use intact. Again it all depends on your point of view and amount of kool-aid ingested over the years.


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Sort of, but no. The term bowhunter is now easily applied to those days since that is all you have known it to be called so yes, you can now (in retrospect) call them bowhunters . there were bowhunters Back in 20's and befor but they didn't know it by that name until it was defined later. Cavemen werent cavemen back then until we named them much later. Bowhunting is defined to meaning a certain activity and in using certain tools. Those famous names you mention defined it and the tools. Crossbow hunting as defined by each state will remain different from bowhunting. Longbows, recurves and compound all share a singular definition is the states. Those same states define crossbows as a differnt tool with different requirements. Min. draw typ. 100 pounds. Min bolt lenght 14 or 17 inches depending on the state. Must have a working safety. The states mention hunting with a bow and arrow and a crossbow for a very good reason and some enfoce a crossbow stamp. They are two seperate but simillar activity so it's understandable that some will incorrectly want to considered bowhunters.
> 
> Look to Ohio. The Meca of the crossbow world. Their hunting regulation continue to define and seperate the two weapons.
> 
> "BOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of limbs, and a string which is hand held, hand drawn, and held in a drawn position by hand or a hand held mechanical release. This would include compound and recurve bows."
> 
> "CROSSBOW means a device for propelling an arrow by means of traverse limbs and a string, mounted on a stock at least twenty-five inches in length, and having a working safety."
> 
> WI states the following:
> 
> "Bow" means any bow, drawn and held by and through the effort of the person releasing it, but does not include crossbow.""
> 
> "Crossbow" means any device using a bow which, once drawn, is held solely by means other than the effort of the person firing it." The crossbow must have a minimum draw of 100 pounds, a working safety, and use at least 14-inch long bolts equipped with broadheads
> 
> 
> The states define the two as different and it is well understood that the act of using the two different weapons is not the same. Longbows, Recurves and compounds are used for bowhunting. Crossbows in some states are allowed to be used but they are taking up an action similar too but not the same as bowhunting. What you and I do and the weapons we use are not the same. I am by definition a bowhunter. You are a crossbow hunter. There is nothing wrong with that. Embrace it.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1288742
> 
> http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/oct96/bowhunt.htm


I know that they are different, just as a compound bow is "different" than a longbow or recurve. The crossbow is ""Crossbow" means any device using a bow" is that not what you sayed? 

Semantics aside.... both a crossbow, of which by the way I am NOT a crossbow shooter... I don't own one, haven't owned one, but eventually have every intention of owning one in order that I can argue their inclusion intelligently beyond what little intelligence I have on the subject at present, and a bow accomplish the EXACT same principle in order to kill. They present the almost exact same ballistics when compared to a 50 pound compound and a 100 pound crossbow would likely still suffer performance wise to a 50# compound.

Aloha... :beer: And Oh.... if you use a compound bow, you are a compound bowhunter... NOT I would submit, a bowhunter as defined by the Wisconsin arguer of the bow season, Roy Case.


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## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> You've got to be kidding me? LOL Boy do you have it bad. I actually feel sorry for you. Sorry to inform you but bow hunting for the most part is purely a recreational activity. You can breath anything you like into it but it doesn't mean anyone else is buying it. Sorry to inform you but you're not superior or special. You don't have any special powers and your enjoyment of the woods is no more important or meaningful to you than it is to anyone else. Hate to break the news to you but the path to Zen doesn't require a bow approved by WBH in your hands to get there.
> 
> 
> BTW the definition of a bow dates back well before the elitist convinced the state to allow them to play in the woods before others. They didn't define a bow, they only defined a way to exclude the masses and keep their level of exclusive use intact. Again it all depends on your point of view and amount of kool-aid ingested over the years.


some pretend that bowhunting is the Holy Catholic Church circa 1492 and the Pope (Saxton Pope I suppose) appointed them the grand inquisitor to stamp out the heresy of crossbows

IT all is due to serious self esteem issues the Source of which is hard to fathom


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## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> some pretend that bowhunting is the Holy Catholic Church circa 1492 and the Pope (Saxton Pope I suppose) appointed them the grand inquisitor to stamp out the heresy of crossbows
> 
> IT all is due to serious self esteem issues the Source of which is hard to fathom


OMG the level of arrogance is off the chart! Image how thick and deep it must be at one of their events or meetings? Hope they all wear a safety harness for the day they fall off their high horse.


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## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> OMG the level of arrogance is off the chart! Image how thick and deep it must be at one of their events or meetings? Hope they all wear a safety harness for the day they fall off their high horse.


I can see them walking into a bar and going up to some hottie in camo spandex and saying

I am a real bowhunter-I don't have any letoff- figuring that will get them some nookie.


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## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> I can see them walking into a bar and going up to some hottie in camo spandex and saying
> 
> I am a real bowhunter-I don't have any letoff- figuring that will get them some nookie.


Probably won't work and it will just be another night alone with their self bow. :wink:


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## Rancid Crabtree

No need to get all animated and worked up over this. These definitions pre-date all of us. A bow is a bow, (compound, Recurve, Longbow) and a crossbow is a crossbow. Then somewhere about 80 years ago, states needed to define statutorily what a bow is for hunting laws and regulations. Some also included the definition of a crossbow. Not to be elitist (that always makes me giggle) :chortle: but because they knew these were very different weapons. 

Even today, and in states that allow crossbows in the season used by bowhunters, there remains a very different set of rules and definitions between a bow and a crossbow. This should come as no shock and should enlist no emotion if you are intellectually honest.  Calm down and embrace your past and what defines you. Take pride in it rather than trying to convince yourself your something else. Your taking offense because I say I am a bowhunter. This should not cause an emotional outburst. You're a crossbow hunter. It's almost the same thing.................... (except different) :wink:


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## Tim50

BigBirdVA said:


> Just more drivel from the same old bunch. Come back when you have some facts that xbows have caused harm. Until then all you have is page after page of "I think, I feel, I want" and more importantly " I DON'T WANT". The emotionally driven response isn't going to cut it. Don't believe me? *Read the topic of this thread and get back to me when and if you can figure it out. *
> RC you forgot to add in your questionnaire! LOL :wink: Totally clueless as usual.


This is the "new" direction the anti's worked on this past weekend while out of state spending the WBH's money. They have FINALLY decided to fight with facts! The only problem is those facts have nothing to do with the crosbow issue! RC will now provide us with FACTS concerning his hobbies in an attempt to *divert attention away from the historic decision *made by the hunters of Michigan...FULL INCLUSION! So while RC is putting together his next fact filled rebuttle to our request for facts ( I have inside info it is a power point presentation of his childrens birthdays thru the years...clowns & all) So have at it! Try to bring the site to it's knee's using every bit of bandwidth with family photo's & outings. All the while ignoring the TOPIC of this thread. You can ignore the great strides the crossbow community is making in MIchigan, New York, Pennsylvania, North Carolinia, Oklahoma, New Jersey but we are not going away! So spend ALL your little hunting corporation's money you can. To fight fellow hunters.....Take trips & hire friends....Isn't that how corporations are run now-a-days?? Congrats to the hunters of Michigan! YOU GET IT!! Full inclusion for ALL hunters!:thumbs_up


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## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> I have inside info it is a power point presentation of his childrens birthdays thru the years. So have at it!


How did you know? :wink:

http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=townsquare&action=display&thread=754


But any way, lets stay on topic. Mich. will will continue to have bowhunting. Nothing has changed for bowhunters. There will certainly be those that will take up the weapon that was allowed for the handicapped and elderly due to its ease of use and advantages (we wouldn't saddle the handicapped and elderly with something harder to use) These folks that didn't care to be a bowhunter will now be allowed to partisipate with a crossbow in a season created for bowhunters. They can now get their crossbow stamp and partisipate right along side bowhunters. I heard that the ACF even started a record book that you might be able to record your crossbow harvests. :wink:


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## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> No need to get all animated and worked up over this. These definitions pre-date all of us. A bow is a bow, (compound, Recurve, Longbow) and a crossbow is a crossbow. Then somewhere about 80 years ago, states needed to define statutorily what a bow is for hunting laws and regulations. Some also included the definition of a crossbow. Not to be elitist (that always makes me giggle) :chortle: but because they knew these were very different weapons.
> 
> Even today, and in states that allow crossbows in the season used by bowhunters, there remains a very different set of rules and definitions between a bow and a crossbow. This should come as no shock and should enlist no emotion if you are intellectually honest.  Calm down and embrace your past and what defines you. Take pride in it rather than trying to convince yourself your something else. Your taking offense because I say I am a bowhunter. This should not cause an emotional outburst. You're a crossbow hunter. It's almost the same thing.................... (except different) :wink:


Read much? Look up any book used as a source of definitions or any on-line source and it has crossbow defined as a bow. Sorry but the definition was created a lot longer than 80 years ago. In fact the world was created a lot longer than 80 years ago. Well for normal people it was. It appears your "God" was created then but the rest of us have a better grip on reality and our thoughts differ quite a bit. The only thing that happened 80 years ago was a few pulled the wool over the eyes of many. 



> Crossbows
> In a crossbow, the limbs of the bow are attached to a crosspiece or stock in order to allow for mechanical pulling and holding of the string. This allows for a much larger draw weight than could be drawn and held by hand. A crossbow can be much smaller than a manually held bow of the same power, or may be constructed on a much larger scale like the arbalest and ballista for use as a siege engine.


Sure looks like a bow to the rest of the educated world.

The Federal Government defines it as a bow. It's not in with guns. No the greedy ones back when wanted it separated and it's remained that way until recently when the real reasons for their separation have been exposed. 

You can try to re-define it and you and your kind can try to convince others but few are buying it. And it looks like state after state aren't buying it any longer either. I'm sure you'll be sticking to your delusional thoughts when they're included in WI, which is coming. 

It's been put into a different category for selfish reasons as they tried to re-define it. Any differences attached to it were put there to appease the greedy whiners. You do know why a compound bow was created don't you? It was to allow weaker people, like women and kids, to be able to hunt and shoot a bow with enough power to take game. It's the original handicapped invention for bow hunting and the mother of all devices made to make things easier. And look where it's at today? But we know how you really feel about those too. I've heard the stick bow guys talk. 

What's really great is your posts like this. You've set your cause back so far by posting this drivel and allowing people to see your true feelings. The hate and disdain you have for others is showing loud and clear. 

Yes you're special but not in the way you think you are. :wink:




Rancid Crabtree said:


> .........But any way, lets stay on topic. Mich. will will continue to have bowhunting. ...........


Tim you must have struck a nerve ! LOL Now he wants to stay on topic ! What's the matter RC isn't it all "about me" any more? Too funny, way too funny ! Last time I saw this much arrogance was on a Biography Channel special on Napoleon.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Bring it down a bit bud. Your gonna pull something. I'm not sure why your getting so bent of this. Embrace it. Since the topic is MI, look to their legal definitions.


_324.40102 Definitions; 
Sec. 40102.

"Bow" means a device for propelling an arrow from a string drawn, held, and released by hand where the force used to hold the string in the drawn position is provided by the archer's muscles.

"Crossbow" means a weapon consisting of a bow mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow, bolt, or quarrel by the release of a string that is controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger and has a working safety and a draw weight of 100 pounds or greater._

You will notice there is is no distinction between a compound, recurve or longbow. Why? Well you know why. :wink: Crossbows are however something different. Bowhunting is and has been defined. So is a bowhunter. Crossbows and crossbow hunting is something close but not the same. Now in Mich. crossbows are allowed right along side bowhunters. For those that want to use the weapon allowed for the handicapped and elderly, this is a great time. Go out and get your crossbow stamp and start crossbow hunting.


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## BigBirdVA

Look back at history and see what was called a bow. You know longer than 80 years ago. LOL :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_%28weapon%29

The distinction is there to appease you and your kind. See living proof it worked. You can go beat your chest and proclaim "I'm different - I'm special" and everyone else gets to use the bow of their choice. Everyone wins. Doesn't take much to appease those running on emotions does it? :wink:

Sorry but it's in bow season and nothing but bows are allowed in it so it must be a bow ! Man that must hurt ! Don't hurt yourself over it. :wink:


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## Rancid Crabtree

Thanks for the link. I see that they kept the bow and arrow and crossbow separate because they are different weapons. Thanks for that.



The word crossbow has existed for centuries. Bows and arrows have existed even longer. They were given different names from jump street because they are not the same. They are close and hunting with a crossbow is very close to bowhunting. 



Like all the states, they too understand that they are different and as such, have different descriptions and legal definitions of a bow and arrow and a crossbow (even in states where it is legal to use a crossbow along side bows and arrows in a season where bowhunting is taking place) I'm not sure why everyone is getting so upset and emotional over this. Legal descriptions and definitions are what they are. Bowhunting is defined and what types of weapons allowed are also defined. When it comes to bowhunting, some states allow crossbows to participate along with bowhunters and others do not. MI will now allow crossbow hunting for more than just the handicapped and elderly. Bows, bowhunters and bowhunting has not changed, the season just now allows crossbows and crossbow hunters to do something simillar to bowhunting. Instead of getting all worked up and upset, you should be rejoicing.


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## BigBirdVA

Sure it's described as different. Same holds true for compound bow. It's different too. In fact they have a whole page on it and how it's different from a traditional bow and how much of an advantage it is to use. 

I'm not arguing that there aren't variations in what's a bow. It's still a bow and it belongs where? In bow season. Same place they put the original handicapped device - compounds. 

I see you're still hung up on what's called what. Was really a smart move allowing there to be a definition for xbows to keep those running on emotion happy and content. Works well too as you still don't get it. 

I've been shooting and hunting with a bow since the 60's and have seen and gone through the whole show. Actually I've got a little over 10 years on bow hunting over you. That's why I can laugh at it. I remember how I felt and was taught to feel 10 years ago. I now know better. One day when you mature you'll figure it out too. I'll give you a hint - It's not about what's a bow or who is superior or more macho. You'll find out one day what I mean.


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## Rancid Crabtree

I guess I'm not understanding all the anger and emotional outbursts when you ought to be celebrating. Many here have been fighting to be able to use a different kind of weapon (as defined by history and every state's statutes) in a bowhunting season but now that MI will allow the weapon for the handicapped and elderly to be used by everybody, your still not happy. Sure, bowhunters will be out there with a bow and all the challenges that go with hunting with a bow and arrow but the different weapon you want to use is still very similar to bowhunting. OK, so in MI you need a special stamp and your harvests are kept separate and you can't enter them in the record books and most all the bowhunting orgs wont recognize your efforts or consider you to be bowhunters but c'mon man, you got what you wanted. 

Time for you to celebrate. Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:

P.S. I did check the National Bowhunter Education Foundation and International Bowhunters Education Program to see what they are teaching and I see they understand that crossbows are separate and different from bowhunting and don't offer crossbows in the curriculum but they do offer a booklet called today's crossbow. It states that it is 28 page publication but because the curriculum presented is not a portion of the IBEP basic course, the booklet is designed to be used as an addendum and that it is for anyone wanting more information on the safety aspects of *crossbow hunting*. It also contains information on proper handling of equipment, safe tree stand hunting, Shot placement, and the basics of *hunting with a crossbow*. Why would they do such a thing? Because they are different and crossbow hunting and bowhunting are different. But hey! 

Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I guess I'm not understanding all the anger and emotional outbursts when you ought to be celebrating. Many here have been fighting to be able to use a different kind of weapon (as defined by history and every state's statutes) in a bowhunting season but now that MI will allow the weapon for the handicapped and elderly to be used by everybody, your still not happy. Sure, bowhunters will be out there with a bow and all the challenges that go with hunting with a bow and arrow but the different weapon you want to use is still very similar to bowhunting. OK, so in MI you need a special stamp and your harvests are kept separate and you can't enter them in the record books and most all the bowhunting orgs wont recognize your efforts or consider you to be bowhunters but c'mon man, you got what you wanted.
> 
> Time for you to celebrate. Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:
> 
> P.S. I did check the National Bowhunter Education Foundation and International Bowhunters Education Program to see what they are teaching and I see they understand that crossbows are separate and different from bowhunting and don't offer crossbows in the curriculum but they do offer a booklet called today's crossbow. It states that it is 28 page publication but because the curriculum presented is not a portion of the IBEP basic course, the booklet is designed to be used as an addendum and that it is for anyone wanting more information on the safety aspects of *crossbow hunting*. It also contains information on proper handling of equipment, safe tree stand hunting, Shot placement, and the basics of *hunting with a crossbow*. Why would they do such a thing? Because they are different and crossbow hunting and bowhunting are different. But hey!
> 
> Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:


I'm not sure that I understand you're comments here.... Since I am an NBEF instructor, I'm fairly cognizant of the curriculae.... and.... Crossbows ARE in it. The reason that there is a booklet now is that for the last 100 years or so, no-one thought a crossbow was a bow due to such bias as you and others bring to the discussion. However, the NBEF had an epiphany of sorts and realized that they were remiss in not bringing a crossbow into the curriculum. 

You are right that they are the same but different, not quite like the differences between compound and longbow/recurve, but different. They all, longbow, compound, recurve, crossbow, kill in the same manner, use the same broadheads, fletching, arrow shaft (mostly) as any other bow.

The reason for the not changing the curriculae there is nothing different to teach, a bow is a bow and once the string is released.... well.

That some haven't been exposed to crossbows previously is the reason for the booklet to overcome the "blackout" that folks had suffered.

Bow hunting with a recurve or a crossbow is hardly any different.

Much Aloha, :beer:


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## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I guess I'm not understanding all the anger and emotional outbursts when you ought to be celebrating. Many here have been fighting to be able to use a different kind of weapon (as defined by history and every state's statutes) in a bowhunting season but now that MI will allow the weapon for the handicapped and elderly to be used by everybody, your still not happy. Sure, bowhunters will be out there with a bow and all the challenges that go with hunting with a bow and arrow but the different weapon you want to use is still very similar to bowhunting. OK, so in MI you need a special stamp and your harvests are kept separate and you can't enter them in the record books and most all the bowhunting orgs wont recognize your efforts or consider you to be bowhunters but c'mon man, you got what you wanted.
> 
> Time for you to celebrate. Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:
> 
> P.S. I did check the National Bowhunter Education Foundation and International Bowhunters Education Program to see what they are teaching and I see they understand that crossbows are separate and different from bowhunting and don't offer crossbows in the curriculum but they do offer a booklet called today's crossbow. It states that it is 28 page publication but because the curriculum presented is not a portion of the IBEP basic course, the booklet is designed to be used as an addendum and that it is for anyone wanting more information on the safety aspects of *crossbow hunting*. It also contains information on proper handling of equipment, safe tree stand hunting, Shot placement, and the basics of *hunting with a crossbow*. Why would they do such a thing? Because they are different and crossbow hunting and bowhunting are different. But hey!
> 
> Woo Hooo!! In your face bowhunters. Were here............ Were............. almost the same and we can use a crossbow to hunt in MI. :banana:


What a pathetic response and attitude. But as always I first consider the source. 


BTW........... 
That's "we are" or "we're" not "were". Nothing worse that a person reveling in their superiority complex that can't even spell. :wink: Just trying to keep you from making a complete ass of yourself. That might turn out to be a full time job.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> Bow hunting with a recurve or a crossbow is hardly any different.



That is what I have pointing out. :wink: Some just want to get all worked up over the "Hardly" part. It's easy enough (and has been) defined by each state. They all seem to consider them a different enough weapon that statutes are created to define what is a bow and what is a crossbow. Some go so far as to allow only bows for bowhunting athers have allowed a crossbow to be allowed to be used while bowhunting is taking place. Logic insists that bowhunting and crossbow hunting are different. :wink:



BigBirdVA said:


> What a pathetic response and attitude. But as always I first consider the source.



The name calling and cursing and focus on spelling indicates only one thing. :wink:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> That is what I have pointing out. :wink: Some just want to get all worked up over the "Hardly" part. It's easy enough (and has been) defined by each state. They all seem to consider them a different enough weapon that statutes are created to define what is a bow and what is a crossbow. Some go so far as to allow only bows for bowhunting athers have allowed a crossbow to be allowed to be used while bowhunting is taking place. *Logic insists that bowhunting and crossbow hunting are different. :wink:*
> 
> The name calling and cursing and focus on spelling indicates only one thing. :wink:


How is hunting with a bow ANY different than with a crossbow? Are you suggesting that it is different??

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> How is hunting with a bow ANY different than with a crossbow? Are you suggesting that it is different??


Good gravy!! go back and re-read this thread. I don't have the time to go over it again. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Good gravy!! go back and re-read this thread. I don't have the time to go over it again. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


Don't treat me as a child... If you have an answer for it, answer it. If you don't, don't insult my intelligence by asking me to re-read your pages of essentially meaningless rhetoric.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Relax. Its been answered time and time again. Go back and re-read this thread. I don't have the time to go over it again. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


----------



## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> How is hunting with a bow ANY different than with a crossbow? Are you suggesting that it is different??
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


Driving with a stick shift or an automatic are 2 different things. Some can't get it that both vehicles end up at the same place and require identical driving skills. You and I see the driving part or the big picture. They only see the shifter and clutch pedal. They might go on and argue that unless you're missing an arm or a leg you should be shifting. If they were from NY you would have to blow through a tube to shift your specially outfitted vehicle. You'll never get a few to get past the part of it they decided that makes them different or somehow better. Just more pointless hair splitting.

Thankfully better minds saw past this.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Relax. Its been answered time and time again. Go back and re-read this thread. *I don't have the time to go over it again*. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


Of course you don't. There is not one manner in which HUNTING with a crossbow differs from hunting with any other kind of archery or hunting, really, whether atlatl or recurve, or longbow, or spear.

I'm actually surprised that you are at such a loss of words, and frankly, I'm somewhat disappointed, but then again, I've come to expect nothing more from you just because I've read through the entire thread.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> But any way, lets stay on topic. Mich. will will continue to have bowhunting. Nothing has changed for bowhunters. *There will certainly be those that will take up the weapon that was allowed for the handicapped and elderly *due to its ease of use and advantages (we wouldn't saddle the handicapped and elderly with something harder to use) These folks that didn't care to be a bowhunter will now be allowed to partisipate with a crossbow in a season created for bowhunters. They can now get their crossbow stamp and partisipate right along side bowhunters.


You are correct for ALL bowhunters nothing has changed. This also means people who are bowhnters & have suffered a temporary injury will not be shutout of the archery season THEY will be able to persue the sport they love using a crossbow. I take it you feel if a vertical bow hunter has a temp injury he/she should be penitalized & not be allowed to hunt archery season! ( as in WI!)You see archery season in MI will be open to all who wish to participate not just the young or the healthy. Or those that 3% of archery hunters deem worthy to share their woods.. And in Mi this season will also be offered to young hunters who want to share the season but are unable to because their vertical bow is still too much for them to handle. Michigan gets it. ( Wi would keep this new hunter the future of our sport on the sidelines because of their anti crossbow agenda)Hunting should be about hunting not the constant bickering about which weapon some hunting corporation thinks you should use! Keep speaking down to fellow hunters and then question why the WBH Corporation needs to hire a public relations firm to help repair their wounded image & faultering membership!! Perhaps if you addressed hunting issues???? Do ya ever think it's because of the way SOME (not all) the WBH Corporation's members treat fellow hunters? It's no wonder people are not joining & you need your image repaired! Look at your input to this thread! It's all about you! So please do not change..your type are placing more people in the ever growing crossbow community than any of the facts we present! Apperently the members of the WBH have unlimited funds to pay for lobbyist's, public relations "people", sending it's pooh-bah's to out of state anti crossbow get togethers ( all expenses paid by WI hunters) so out of state entities can help influence WI agenda's. Michigan, Pennsylvania,New Jersey, Texas all have some sort of full inclusion and the hunters of these states ( and other like them) are TRUE bowhunters! The love the sport and they respect their fellow hunters......They are not ruled by out of state institutions, eliteism or personal agenda's. They are hunters/sportsman! Someday you too will join this club. (not a Corporation like the WBH!) So this is what the WBH really is??

*cor·po·ra·tion   */ˌkɔrpəˈreɪʃən/ Show Spelled[kawr-puh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA 
–noun 
1. an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence *independent of the existences of its members*, *and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members. *

This explains a lot about you & you anti crossbow corporation!!!!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> Of course you don't. There is not one manner in which HUNTING with a crossbow differs from hunting with any other kind of archery or hunting, really, whether atlatl or recurve, or longbow, or spear.
> 
> I'm actually surprised that you are at such a loss of words, and frankly, I'm somewhat disappointed, but then again, I've come to expect nothing more from you just because I've read through the entire thread.


Calm down already. Your not interested in a real discussion. That is evident. You stated that

"There is not one manner in which HUNTING with a crossbow differs from hunting with a spear." 

I'm sure I could type a few words to explain the flaws in your thinking but it would be a waste of my time to try if you firmly believe that a spear and atlatl are archery so why would I bother using reason and logic to talk you off the ledge when you didn't use logic or reason to get up there? Look to all the states statutes for the hunting regs and season structures and allowable weapons for the answers you seek. By the by, would you include a camera in your definition of "Hunting" being the same as if one used an atlatl or recurve, or longbow, or spear or crossbow?


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Relax. Its been answered time and time again. Go back and re-read this thread. I don't have the time to go over it again. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


You have made YOUR statement but you have never answered or addressed the issue. Too busy making power point presintations to distract fellow hunters from the real issue... Don't address hunting issues show us how you laid tile in your bathroom!!! I alos undrstand your reluctance to relpy....you have no answer and no facts to support your position! Now back to grouting tile!!!!


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## Rancid Crabtree

Tim, Tim, Tim, you are the one that wants to make this all about me. That's cool and all but clearly its taking a toll on you. I am honestly concerned for your well being as you pound out these angry posts on your keyboard. The tension and emotion here by some is a bit out of place considering this is just a chat room to "Discuss ideas". This can be done calmly and rationally and and without resorting to all the personal attacks and name calling. Come, let us reason together in a more even tempered manner. This is strictly for entertainment. The real and substantive discussions take place with the policy makers. This is just practice. Next week a group of us from a wide array of hunting orgs and hunting species from around the state will be traveling to capital city to meet with the states largest and most influential coalition of non-hunting orgs. to work on a joint agreement to support each others legislative initiatives because we know there is strength in numbers and coalitions. You can be certain that these talks will be reasoned and well mannered and conducted with proper respect for one another as we begin to work together. You will want to know that I will be doing so on my own dime (again) because I have a real passion and interest for this and the good it will do for the future so I will gladly volunteer. 

But I digress. If in the end, you and I have to say that we agree to disagree, then that is how it has to be. There is certainly no way that you or the others in the list of folks here are going to be able to convince of things that I know for certain to be wrongs and false. We call them self evident truths for a reason. I do however enjoy the "Theater of the mind" that takes place here. The entertainment value if worth the price of admission. You can continue to focus on me if you like (I'm flattered) but discussing the issue are infinitely more interesting.


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Calm down already. Your not interested in a real discussion. That is evident. You stated that
> 
> "There is not one manner in which HUNTING with a crossbow differs from hunting with a spear."
> 
> I'm sure I could type a few words to explain the flaws in your thinking but it would be a waste of my time to try if you firmly believe that a spear and atlatl are archery so why would I bother using reason and logic to talk you off the ledge when you didn't use logic or reason to get up there? Look to all the states statutes for the hunting regs and season structures and allowable weapons for the answers you seek. By the by, would you include a camera in your definition of "Hunting" being the same as if one used an atlatl or recurve, or longbow, or spear or crossbow?


Hunting is hunting, and if you have taken a bowhunter or Hunter Education Course, there is a wildlife photographer who says very specifically that his skills as a wildlife photographer are the same skills necessary to get close for bowhunting.... so yes....

And don't be an imbecile crabtree, we are talking hunting and the skills involved in crossbow hunting, bowhunting, atlatl, and spear are INDEED THE SAME... unless your version of hunting is just sitting in a tree, then the spear part is a LITTLE DIFFERENT but not much. I've witnessed elevated hunting with a spear before and my sons last pig was also taken from a mango tree with a club, so stick to the program crabtree.... hunting is hunting.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Oh the name calling and insults and emoitions are all just so fantastic and invigorating. I'll bet you just feel a whole lot better after getting that out. :set1_violent002:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Oh the name calling and insults and emoitions are all just so fantastic and invigorating. I'll bet you just feel a whole lot better after getting that out. :set1_violent002:


Don't know who you are referring to here but if you are referring to your deliberate *misunderstanding or misinterpretation or your disingenuous ignoring a direct question by posting another, * I for one am through responding to your posts on this subject. It's pointless to try to engage you in any kind of debate that doesn't require the rest of us having to try to chase you down like a rabbit to get you to elicit a factual or foundational response on issues such as hunting without you parsing each and every response you receive generally in honest response to your query.

This reparte' of yours parsing hunting is a case in point and I'm not wasting my time with you further.

Aloha


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## Rancid Crabtree

Whew! Finally. :clap:


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## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> Don't know who you are referring to here but if you are referring to your deliberate *misunderstanding or misinterpretation or your disingenuous ignoring a direct question by posting another, * I for one am through responding to your posts on this subject. It's pointless to try to engage you in any kind of debate that doesn't require the rest of us having to try to chase you down like a rabbit to get you to elicit a factual or foundational response on issues such as hunting without you parsing each and every response you receive generally in honest response to your query.
> 
> This reparte' of yours parsing hunting is a case in point and I'm not wasting my time with you further.
> 
> Aloha


That's exactly why inclusion is running all over the snake in the grass act. It may be cute or get one by in some places but when data and facts are all that count it doesn't cut it.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I guess I'm not understanding all the anger and emotional outbursts when you ought to be celebrating.
> P.QUOTE]
> 
> The anger and emotional outbursts are coming from the side that is LOSING. That is the side that uses lies and emotion and irrational claims in order to serve as a pretext for their selfishness and greed
> 
> Guess what Rancid. A compound is as much different from the bows that were around when archery season started as crossbows are. Nothing was hurt by letting triggers, letoff and peep sights in so nothing will be hurt by letting crossbows in
> 
> self esteem issues have no relevance nor does the bogus religion of bowhunting


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Good gravy!! go back and re-read this thread. I don't have the time to go over it again. It's all there for you is you are really interested.


There is no difference significant enough to justify excluding an xbow in a season that allows compounds. It takes a couple hours to learn how to shoot a crossbow as or more accurately as what the average bowhunter could shoot when archery seasons were created. It takes maybe three hours to do the same with a compound

with talented people and top coaches, the time period is about 15 minutes and a half hour. all the other stuff you have to learn is the same no matter what bow you use


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> Rancid Crabtree said:
> 
> 
> 
> The anger and emotional outbursts are coming from the side that is LOSING. That is the side that uses lies and emotion and irrational claims in order to serve as a pretext for their selfishness and greed
> 
> Guess what Rancid. A compound is as much different from the bows that were around when archery season started as crossbows are. Nothing was hurt by letting triggers, letoff and peep sights in so nothing will be hurt by letting crossbows in
> 
> self esteem issues have no relevance nor does the bogus religion of bowhunting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's one of the rage filled and emotional and name calling outbursts I was speaking of. You guys have to understand something. I find humor in these repeated meltdowns I'm watching. Insults only work if the person getting insulted places value in the opinion of the person offering the insults and name calling. That is not the case here. The theater of the mind has me envisioning red faced guys with clenched fists pounding out hate fill words on their keyboards :yell: and thinking to themselves.
> 
> Ah Ha!! That'll teach him. I hope it's cathartic for you as you let it all out. Please don't stop. I prefer to discuss the issues in an adult and calm manner but this is also entertaining. I'll fill you in on how next week's meeting goes with the Coalition of the willing. :wink:
Click to expand...


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's one of the rage filled and emotional and name calling outbursts I was speaking of. You guys have to understand something. I find humor in these repeated meltdowns I'm watching. Insults only work if the person getting insulted places value in the opinion of the person offering the insults and name calling. That is not the case here. The theater of the mind has me envisioning red faced guys with clenched fists pounding out hate fill words on their keyboards :yell: and thinking to themselves.
> 
> Ah Ha!! That'll teach him. I hope it's cathartic for you as you let it all out. Please don't stop. I prefer to discuss the issues in an adult and calm manner but this is also entertaining. I'll fill you in on how next week's meeting goes with the Coalition of the willing. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> we have all seen your evasions, your diversions, your filibustering threads with non-relevant pictures etc.
> 
> you are losing. The archaic and elitist old ways of exclusion, myths, magic and mumbo jumbo are waning in the face of logic, statistics, evidence and proof. I understand how important self esteem issues are to some and how many of the anti xbow types tie their self worth into their perceived status as a "bowhunter"
> 
> But as the Bird correctly noted, bowhunting is a hobby and recreational activity and your pathetic attempts to justify allowing more people to enjoy that hobby are based on myth and nonsense.
> 
> I am not mad-I am rejoicing in how upset you become everytime another state throws off the old feudal aristocracy and modernizes their bowhunting codes
> 
> Your way is that of Marie Antoinette and we are the guillotine
> 
> deal with it
Click to expand...


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## Rancid Crabtree

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_crvGziPn3g&feature=related


----------



## Jim C

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7yxA9vt2-c


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## BigBirdVA

This is an interesting post on here. See if you can find the relevant part in it. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1260146


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## rcgerchow

OMG, this is truly amazing so much anger over something so trivial. Just a few points about Michigan according to our game regulations we do not have a bow season, we have an archery season that you may hunt with traditional equipment, compound bows and now crossbows are included. We also have a muzzle loader season where you can use an in line or bolt action smokeless powder burning muzzle loaders. Things change right now baby boomers are starting to realize their capabilities may decline over the next few years. I basically lived in the field and woods as a kid and love the time I spend doing that. I started hunting with a recurve bow when I was 14 (I am 61 now) and continued until technology became better. I shot with fingers until I blew out some ligaments and went to a release. Now I shoot what is the latest and best technology for me and continue to enjoy archery hunting and target shooting. I used to shoot 70 Lbs. but now shoot 60lbs. due to my older age and various aches and pains. But todays technology will let you shoot a lighter bow with very good accuracy and make a humane kill. If I get to the point I can't pull a bow back and handle it well then I may move to a crossbow. Several friends and I who hunt late season archery discussed using crossbows when it gets into extreme weather. Drawing a bow is sometimes difficult while bundled up to beat the cold, let alone climbing an icy ladder or sticks to sit in a tree stand therefore a crossbow from a ground blind might be a tad safer. I posted earlier in regards to this and a fellow hunter being able to hunt after a few years of not being able to hunt. I also belong to a large Sportsmens club and was very surprised we many of the good ole boys embraced the use of crossbows for hunting and our target ranges with out any rancor. Change will happen and this is no way connected to Obamaism, as technologies and demographics change so will the lay of the land. Points are made about the ease of use and how little you need to shoot a crossbow to become adept at hitting a target, you still need to sight in and practice and I believe the learning curve is shorter with a crossbow than a bow. If you have shot with a rifle you could be a decent shot very quickly with a crossbow. I darned near robin hooded an arrow with my first 3 shot of a crossbow during a seminar, while standing on a target line shooting arrows that doesn't happen to me all that often. At a time when we are losing hunters we in Michigan need to do all we can to continue to bring revenue to our DNR/NRC (even though I don't always agree with them) to help manage the game we have. Sorry again that this is so long but I just don't understand all this when second amendment rights are under attack, hunting is under attack, insurance companies lobby for deer reduction and emotionalism for predators runs rampant. Whew!


----------



## Tim50

rcgerchow said:


> OMG, this is truly amazing so much anger over something so trivial. Just a few points about Michigan according to our game regulations we do not have a bow season, we have an archery season that you may hunt with traditional equipment, compound bows and now crossbows are included. We also have a muzzle loader season where you can use an in line or bolt action smokeless powder burning muzzle loaders. Things change right now baby boomers are starting to realize their capabilities may decline over the next few years. I basically lived in the field and woods as a kid and love the time I spend doing that. I started hunting with a recurve bow when I was 14 (I am 61 now) and continued until technology became better. I shot with fingers until I blew out some ligaments and went to a release. Now I shoot what is the latest and best technology for me and continue to enjoy archery hunting and target shooting. I used to shoot 70 Lbs. but now shoot 60lbs. due to my older age and various aches and pains. But todays technology will let you shoot a lighter bow with very good accuracy and make a humane kill. If I get to the point I can't pull a bow back and handle it well then I may move to a crossbow. Several friends and I who hunt late season archery discussed using crossbows when it gets into extreme weather. Drawing a bow is sometimes difficult while bundled up to beat the cold, let alone climbing an icy ladder or sticks to sit in a tree stand therefore a crossbow from a ground blind might be a tad safer. I posted earlier in regards to this and a fellow hunter being able to hunt after a few years of not being able to hunt. I also belong to a large Sportsmens club and was very surprised we many of the good ole boys embraced the use of crossbows for hunting and our target ranges with out any rancor. Change will happen and this is no way connected to Obamaism, as technologies and demographics change so will the lay of the land. Points are made about the ease of use and how little you need to shoot a crossbow to become adept at hitting a target, you still need to sight in and practice and I believe the learning curve is shorter with a crossbow than a bow. If you have shot with a rifle you could be a decent shot very quickly with a crossbow. I darned near robin hooded an arrow with my first 3 shot of a crossbow during a seminar, while standing on a target line shooting arrows that doesn't happen to me all that often. At a time when we are losing hunters we in Michigan need to do all we can to continue to bring revenue to our DNR/NRC (even though I don't always agree with them) to help manage the game we have. Sorry again that this is so long but I just don't understand all this when second amendment rights are under attack, hunting is under attack, insurance companies lobby for deer reduction and emotionalism for predators runs rampant. Whew!


Great post! You are right on the money!! Congrats to Michigan!!


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## Redclub

Why would you post something that makes sense, good for you. Me I go deer hunting, elk hunting, duck hunting, grouse hunting, rabbit hunting, I go shopping for bows
Redclub


----------



## Doty Bumb

rcgerchow said:


> OMG, this is truly amazing so much anger over something so trivial. Just a few points about Michigan according to our game regulations we do not have a bow season, we have an archery season that you may hunt with traditional equipment, compound bows and now crossbows are included. We also have a muzzle loader season where you can use an in line or bolt action smokeless powder burning muzzle loaders. Things change right now baby boomers are starting to realize their capabilities may decline over the next few years. I basically lived in the field and woods as a kid and love the time I spend doing that. I started hunting with a recurve bow when I was 14 (I am 61 now) and continued until technology became better. I shot with fingers until I blew out some ligaments and went to a release. Now I shoot what is the latest and best technology for me and continue to enjoy archery hunting and target shooting. I used to shoot 70 Lbs. but now shoot 60lbs. due to my older age and various aches and pains. But todays technology will let you shoot a lighter bow with very good accuracy and make a humane kill. If I get to the point I can't pull a bow back and handle it well then I may move to a crossbow. Several friends and I who hunt late season archery discussed using crossbows when it gets into extreme weather. Drawing a bow is sometimes difficult while bundled up to beat the cold, let alone climbing an icy ladder or sticks to sit in a tree stand therefore a crossbow from a ground blind might be a tad safer. I posted earlier in regards to this and a fellow hunter being able to hunt after a few years of not being able to hunt. I also belong to a large Sportsmens club and was very surprised we many of the good ole boys embraced the use of crossbows for hunting and our target ranges with out any rancor. Change will happen and this is no way connected to Obamaism, as technologies and demographics change so will the lay of the land. Points are made about the ease of use and how little you need to shoot a crossbow to become adept at hitting a target, you still need to sight in and practice and I believe the learning curve is shorter with a crossbow than a bow. If you have shot with a rifle you could be a decent shot very quickly with a crossbow. I darned near robin hooded an arrow with my first 3 shot of a crossbow during a seminar, while standing on a target line shooting arrows that doesn't happen to me all that often. At a time when we are losing hunters we in Michigan need to do all we can to continue to bring revenue to our DNR/NRC (even though I don't always agree with them) to help manage the game we have. Sorry again that this is so long but I just don't understand all this when second amendment rights are under attack, hunting is under attack, insurance companies lobby for deer reduction and emotionalism for predators runs rampant. Whew!


AH yes. Oakland County sportsmens club. They have been pushing for full inclusion for years, mostly gun hunters looking for an easy way to pretend they bowhunt. Make it easy and they will come. The new crossbow rules have not brought any new hunters into the fold. It has only allowed gun hunters to shoot deer in archery season. NO NEW HUNTERS. At what price.


----------



## Tim50

Doty Bumb said:


> AH yes. Oakland County sportsmens club. They have been pushing for full inclusion for years, mostly gun hunters looking for an easy way to pretend they bowhunt. Make it easy and they will come. The new crossbow rules have not brought any new hunters into the fold. *It has only allowed gun hunters to shoot deer in archery season*. NO NEW HUNTERS. *At what price*.



Exactly "at what price"...Nothing has changed...You worry about what weapon others use too much...Just hunt!!!....Typical archery elitest! The so called NEW RULES are still very restrictive. Go full inclusion for 3 years with a Sundown Clause. See what happens...You have nothing to lose! The WBH Corporation & it's PR Dept ( paid for with WI hunters dues) feel the majority of WI hunters would overwelmingly turn crossbows down! So you have nothing to fear!! Unless you do not believe your own misinformation!! Hunters should TRY & stick together...to fight the real danger out there! Instead the WBH Corporation has hired lobbyist & PR firms at the Corporations expense to fight the crossbow & perk up memberships. Maybe a different stance on crossbows is what is needed! The WBH Corporation is turning into a political action group! What happened to having a hunting club? Maybe the Pooh Bah's are pusing their own political agenda too much? Just a thought!! Now everyone sit back & wait for RC's power point of "Christmas '09" rather than address the issues....


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## rcgerchow

Doty Bumb said:


> AH yes. Oakland County sportsmens club. They have been pushing for full inclusion for years, mostly gun hunters looking for an easy way to pretend they bowhunt. Make it easy and they will come. The new crossbow rules have not brought any new hunters into the fold. It has only allowed gun hunters to shoot deer in archery season. NO NEW HUNTERS. At what price.


Oakland County Sportsmens Club has not pushed anything in regards to crossbows and we have a large number of archers, target and hunters. We also have rifle, pistol and shotgun members. I currently hunt with two guys that are now using crossbows that had given up bow hunting due to shoulder or arm injuries, so for about 3 years they never bought an Archery tag. During some seminars put on by Dunhams several Dads and sons attended and made decisions to try hunting with a crossbow.
As far as archery goes we hold many shoots throughout the year, indoor, outdoor and broad head leagues. We have a JOAD program that has been very successful and produced some great young archers. We have had a Bow Hunter Jamboree for many years that is attended by archers not rifle hunters.
I hear no one complain about the early antlerless season, youth hunt, or the late archery season that actually shortens an Archery season. How about allowing 5 antlerless tags per day, unless you pay some outrageous price to lease land or hunt the borders of Rochester you won't find 5 does per day. State Land in the Metro area is a joke with virtually nothing being done to promote habitat. Just so many other things to be an activist about. Funny to read this after coming back from our booth at Bass Pro Shops promoting the outdoor sports.


----------



## Tim50

It great to hear true Michigan hunters voice their support!!


----------



## Doty Bumb

Tim50 said:


> Exactly "at what price"...Nothing has changed...You worry about what weapon others use too much...Just hunt!!!....Typical archery elitest! The so called NEW RULES are still very restrictive. Go full inclusion for 3 years with a Sundown Clause. See what happens...You have nothing to lose! The WBH Corporation & it's PR Dept ( paid for with WI hunters dues) feel the majority of WI hunters would overwelmingly turn crossbows down! So you have nothing to fear!! Unless you do not believe your own misinformation!! Hunters should TRY & stick together...to fight the real danger out there! Instead the WBH Corporation has hired lobbyist & PR firms at the Corporations expense to fight the crossbow & perk up memberships. Maybe a different stance on crossbows is what is needed! The WBH Corporation is turning into a political action group! What happened to having a hunting club? Maybe the Pooh Bah's are pusing their own political agenda too much? Just a thought!! Now everyone sit back & wait for RC's power point of "Christmas '09" rather than address the issues....


The NRC eliminated the sundown clause at the last meeting. The only restriction is no crossbows during the late season in the UP. 

The Oakland County sportsmens reps have supported unrestricted crossbow use during the archery season for many years.


----------



## Jim C

rcgerchow said:


> Oakland County Sportsmens Club has not pushed anything in regards to crossbows and we have a large number of archers, target and hunters. We also have rifle, pistol and shotgun members. I currently hunt with two guys that are now using crossbows that had given up bow hunting due to shoulder or arm injuries, so for about 3 years they never bought an Archery tag. During some seminars put on by Dunhams several Dads and sons attended and made decisions to try hunting with a crossbow.
> As far as archery goes we hold many shoots throughout the year, indoor, outdoor and broad head leagues. We have a JOAD program that has been very successful and produced some great young archers. We have had a Bow Hunter Jamboree for many years that is attended by archers not rifle hunters.
> I hear no one complain about the early antlerless season, youth hunt, or the late archery season that actually shortens an Archery season. How about allowing 5 antlerless tags per day, unless you pay some outrageous price to lease land or hunt the borders of Rochester you won't find 5 does per day. State Land in the Metro area is a joke with virtually nothing being done to promote habitat. Just so many other things to be an activist about. Funny to read this after coming back from our booth at Bass Pro Shops promoting the outdoor sports.


Great JOAD Program-one of the best in the North Region


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> The NRC eliminated the sundown clause at the last meeting. The only restriction is no crossbows during the late season in the UP.
> 
> The Oakland County sportsmens reps have supported unrestricted crossbow use during the archery season for many years.


Good for them-there is no rational reason to treat crossbows any different than compounds


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## rcgerchow

"The Oakland County sportsmens reps have supported unrestricted crossbow use during the archery season for many years". 


Lets see 36 posts and only 14 haven't been closed. Don't even list where you are from? Being a member of O.C.S.C since 1976 and active on the board, executive board and an MUCC District 7 rep. at one time I think I have an idea of what the agenda maybe at our club.


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## Doty Bumb

rcgerchow said:


> "The Oakland County sportsmens reps have supported unrestricted crossbow use during the archery season for many years".
> 
> 
> Lets see 36 posts and only 14 haven't been closed. Don't even list where you are from? Being a member of O.C.S.C since 1976 and active on the board, executive board and an MUCC District 7 rep. at one time I think I have an idea of what the agenda maybe at our club.



I notice you didn't deny it in your statement, :bs: exactly like a politician.


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## rcgerchow

rcgerchow said:


> Oakland County Sportsmens Club has not pushed anything in regards to crossbows.


Post#135


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## Doty Bumb

rcgerchow said:


> Post#135


That may be the official stand of OC but the reps have pushed and have supported full inclusion.


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## Jim C

why do the antis continue to clutter up this thread with repeating those irrelevent pictures?


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## jrip

Crossbows are flying out the door as fast as we can get them in ever since the law was changed. And still the first question I get on every crossbow sale is "how far can I shoot a deer with this crossbow". To which they all get the same answer "a crossbow is still just a 40 yard weapon". I hope they listen this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jim C

jrip said:


> Crossbows are flying out the door as fast as we can get them in ever since the law was changed. And still the first question I get on every crossbow sale is "how far can I shoot a deer with this crossbow". To which they all get the same answer "a crossbow is still just a 40 yard weapon". I hope they listen this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


how is that relevant?


----------



## Doty Bumb

jrip said:


> Crossbows are flying out the door as fast as we can get them in ever since the law was changed. And still the first question I get on every crossbow sale is "how far can I shoot a deer with this crossbow". To which they all get the same answer "a crossbow is still just a 40 yard weapon". I hope they listen this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


They won't listen, cause they know it is a longer range weapon than a conventional bow. Dust it off and point and shoot. It's so easy even a cave man can do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsG-B2fBv4&feature=related


----------



## awshucks

Doty Bumb said:


> They won't listen, cause they know it is a longer range weapon than a conventional bow. Dust it off and point and shoot. It's so easy even a cave man can do it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsG-B2fBv4&feature=related


You may find these of interest.

Youtube vids of extended range shooting of modern compound bows

60 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TUf...eature=related
60 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux7fs...eature=related
60 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-l_f...eature=related
70 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1C8k...eature=related
70 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_dSg...eature=related
70 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6iCusjZCC4
70 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_RWcUK2Rn0
75 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgNKE...eature=related
80 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwBfK...eature=related
80 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mmJqfAGvGs
80 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Mdx9hAVg8
80 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p4slHuR_8I
85 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwLMebFa9IM
20,60,100 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4yOvmm42dU
20,60,100 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXcwMyrqYM
100 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F0-j...eature=related
100 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZflTSNGEluI
100 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwLMebFa9IM
185 yards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs
Uknown range but insanely far. Listen for the target impact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz5UCzrnuxI&NR=1


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Thanks guys. Bowhunting is a lot of work. Using a bow and arrow to take game is a unique sport and its not easy. It was defined that way and nothing has changed. The effort and commitment and challenge is what is all about. Don't let the guys that are trying to convince themselves, get to you. Some will never get it. If the goal is to simply kill a deer with the least effort possible by using as little of yourself (right down to drawing and holding in the presence of game) then these guys are fighting for the right thing as they demand that others consider them bowhunters. They are doing something very close to bowhunting and doing it during a season created by bowhunters and if that's good enough for them, so be it. The rest of us know the truth. They are a persistent bunch and some states have allowed them to participate in the season we created and to use the weapon allowed for the elderly and handicapped. If that works for them, kudos. Personally, I think they would really like bowhunting but we know its not for everybody.:wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> why do the antis continue to clutter up this thread with repeating those irrelevent pictures?


Because they can't counter the topic with facts or have anything other than "I don't want anyone in my season shooting my deer". It's like when a kid hears something they don't like and they cover their ears and go "nanananananana .... I can't hear you". It would be funny if it was a child doing it. Oh wait........... never mind. :wink:


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## Kelly Johnson

You can discuss the issue or keep off the thread.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thanks guys. Bowhunting is a lot of work. Using a bow and arrow to take game is a unique sport and its not easy. It was defined that way and nothing has changed. The effort and commitment and challenge is what is all about. Don't let the guys that are trying to convince themselves, get to you. Some will never get it. If the goal is to simply kill a deer with the least effort possible by using as little of yourself (right down to drawing and holding in the presence of game) then these guys are fighting for the right thing as they demand that others consider them bowhunters. They are doing something very close to bowhunting and doing it during a season created by bowhunters and if that's good enough for them, so be it. The rest of us know the truth. They are a persistent bunch and some states have allowed them to participate in the season we created and to use the weapon allowed for the elderly and handicapped. If that works for them, kudos. Personally, I think they would really like bowhunting but we know its not for everybody.:wink:


your self esteem issues are not relevant to other peoples' decisions how they want to approach bowhunting

there is no law or moral code that says you have more right to bowhunt because you claim to put more effort into it.


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## rattus58

Jim C said:


> your self esteem issues are not relevant to other peoples' decisions how they want to approach bowhunting
> 
> there is no law or moral code that says you have more right to bowhunt because you claim to put more effort into it.


:thumbs_up


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## Rancid Crabtree

Yes, you want desperately to believe that and have been trying to convince yourself for a very long time. The rest of us however, know the truth and facts. I am a bowhunter and I approve this message.


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, you want desperately to believe that and have been trying to convince yourself for a very long time. The rest of us however, know the truth and facts. I am a bowhunter and I approve this message.


I am a bowhunter as well crabtree, and there is no desperation here, only inevitability. It is funny to watch you talk about the "truth and facts" when you've rarely presented either when discussing "crossbows" and their qualification for and acceptability into Archery seasons.

We have right and we have time
This year or next, either will be fine
Your cause is lost don't cry or whine
The crossbow soon will be in line

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Cold Weather

considering we are talking about a recreational season it doesnt compute that if one puts more time into it over another it qualifies for extra consideration.

one of Rancid's flaws in argument is this idea that bowhunters as he defines it are somewhat more dedicated than others.

I know as someone that deals in archery equipment this is absolutely not true.

it's also untrue that bowhunters dont want the xbow. Lots of bowhunters use conventional tackle and also bowhunt with xbows.

let people make the choice for themselves, than others who self appoint themselves to decide what people should choose.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, you want desperately to believe that and have been trying to convince yourself for a very long time. The rest of us however, know the truth and facts. I am a bowhunter and I approve this message.


I am an archery coach who has produced national champions in crossbow, barebow, compound bow and recurve bow. You are in no position to argue with me about the mechanics of making a shot with any of those weapons.

The only difference between bowhunting with a recurve, a crossbow, a compound bow, a stick bow is the mechanics of making the shot. everything else is the same. and the differences between an 80% letoff compound using a peep sight and mechanical release and a 100% letoff crossbow is so minimal that there is no legislative reason that meets a logical test to treat them differently


----------



## Jim C

Cold Weather said:


> considering we are talking about a recreational season it doesnt compute that if one puts more time into it over another it qualifies for extra consideration.
> 
> one of Rancid's flaws in argument is this idea that bowhunters as he defines it are somewhat more dedicated than others.
> 
> I know as someone that deals in archery equipment this is absolutely not true.
> 
> it's also untrue that bowhunters dont want the xbow. Lots of bowhunters use conventional tackle and also bowhunt with xbows.
> 
> let people make the choice for themselves, than others who self appoint themselves to decide what people should choose.


great point

my son is a competitive archer. US national target champion, he has also finished first or second at three straight NFAA indoors, won three NAA postal nationals, and as a ten year old finished second in the 12 and under JOAD nationals. He shoots 500 arrows a week on the average.

using Rancid Logic, he has worked harder at bowhunting than 95% of the bowhunters in the USA since -other than september for three weeks-he doesn't have an off season. 

but he doesn't bow hunt. but since Rancid makes it all about the shot, my son is more deserving to be called a bowhunter than rancid is because I can say-with fair probability of accuracy that rancid doesn't shoot 25,000 arrows a year


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> We have right and we have time
> This year or next, either will be fine
> Your cause is lost don't cry or whine
> The crossbow soon will be in line



Poetry!!! Brilliant!! I'm not sure how legislators will respond but what the heck. They seem pretty receptive to everything else when we talk. Here goes.

There once was a guy named Joe 
He hunted with an arrow and bow
With game nearby he drew and held the draw
It required commitment to do it without flaw

Along came a guy with a stock, scope and bolts
He tried to convince others that he was bowhunting folk
Joe turned and said for shooting that looks like fun
If you want to make it that easy, you might as well use a gun.

In WI, a crossbows not legal for the taking of game 
Its almost like bowhunting, just not quite the same.
For the injured and old, a crossbow helps remove the flaws 
but everyone knows a bowhunter holds his own draw

:set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: Sometimes I just kill me. C'mon, you won't admit it in public but that was pretty good for off the cuff freestyle.


I'm not sure how committee members will like it but I will run it by them the next time we meet.

Sorry JimC but your repeated self promotion does not make it bowhunting. (talk about self esteem issues) It's close and all but I am a bowhunter so I would know.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Poetry!!! Brilliant!! I'm not sure how legislators will respond but what the heck. They seem pretty receptive to everything else when we talk. Here goes.
> 
> There once was a guy named Joe
> He hunted with an arrow and bow
> With game nearby he drew and held the draw
> It required commitment to do it without flaw
> 
> Along came a guy with a stock, scope and bolts
> He tried to convince others that he was bowhunting folk
> Joe turned and said for shooting that looks like fun
> If you want to make it that easy, you might as well use a gun.
> 
> In WI, a crossbows not legal for the taking of game
> Its almost like bowhunting, just not quite the same.
> For the injured and old, a crossbow helps remove the flaws
> but everyone knows a bowhunter holds his own draw
> 
> :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: Sometimes I just kill me. C'mon, you won't admit it in public but that was pretty good for off the cuff freestyle.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how committee members will like it but I will run it by them the next time we meet.
> 
> Sorry JimC but your repeated self promotion does not make it bowhunting. (talk about self esteem issues) It's close and all but I am a bowhunter so I would know.


And why would I not admit it? Here again, you've missed the mark of the archer. I appreciate anything good, and you produce a lot of great stuff, your broadheads have convinced me to give it a shot. I've been making them out of strapping wire... this looks not only a heck of a lot easier to mount on my arrows, are pretty slick, as was your poem.... but facts remain facts... 

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Jim C

rattus58 said:


> And why would I not admit it? Here again, you've missed the mark of the archer. I appreciate anything good, and you produce a lot of great stuff, your broadheads have convinced me to give it a shot. I've been making them out of strapping wire... this looks not only a heck of a lot easier to mount on my arrows, are pretty slick, as was your poem.... but facts remain facts...
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


rancid hasn't figured out that archery and bowhunting are not the same thing and he wants dedication to archery to serve as a litmus test for bowhunting

where he fails is that there is no evidence that compound or trad bowhunters spend any more time learning the craft of archery than crossbow hunters


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Im sorry but I keep reading that and laughing my tail off. I don't care who you are, that was a darn good poem. I don't coach poets and cant claim credit for the accomplishments of others but that was just darn good poetry. :wink: Its worth another read.


There once was a guy named Joe 
He hunted with an arrow and bow
With game nearby he drew and held the draw
It required commitment to do it without flaw

Along came a guy with a stock, scope and bolts
He tried to convince others that he was bowhunting folk
Joe turned and said for shooting that looks like fun
If you want to make it that easy, you might as well use a gun.

In WI, a crossbows not legal for the taking of game 
Its almost like bowhunting, just not quite the same.
For the injured and old, a crossbow helps remove the flaws 
but everyone knows a bowhunter holds his own draw


----------



## Cold Weather

since its all about the draw as our friend Rancid says, it therefore should follow that we ban blinds that allow one to shoot unseen.

I have to admit speaking as a bowhunter I've never found it that tough to get to draw, but then I prefer to bowhunt unalarmed deer that dont know I am there.

the biggest challenge I find is to get in range and an xbow doesnt help me.


----------



## Jim C

Cold Weather said:


> since its all about the draw as our friend Rancid says, it therefore should follow that we ban blinds that allow one to shoot unseen.
> 
> I have to admit speaking as a bowhunter I've never found it that tough to get to draw, but then I prefer to bowhunt unalarmed deer that dont know I am there.
> 
> the biggest challenge I find is to get in range and an xbow doesnt help me.


true-before compound bows you had to spend a fair amount of time learning how to shoot the bow in order to get a hit. Charlie Pierson (a legend in archery) noted to me that compound bows created a new era where most bowhunters no longer were archers any more than guys who hunt deer with slug guns are "wingshots" who spend most of the off season shooting their shotgun at clay targets or paper.

back in the 60's, Charlie told me that almost all the people who bought hunting bows from him or his father (E. Bud Pierson-a legendary designer) shot most of the year-bowhunting was the fall season for archery, indoor was the winter and early spring season for archers, and field and target was the summer season of archery.

compounds, he noted, were like slug guns--something that most guys shot a few times in the late summer or early fall, took afield in the fall, and put away about the time thanksgiving came around

rancid rant is really about a belief that only those who have to practice a certain amount to become proficient should have a right to bowhunt (in reality, rancid wants less people hunting and wants to impose higher time costs upon those who want to join the season). Where his thinking fails is that there is no guarantee that a stick bow hunter has actually invested the time to become proficient. What we do know is that someone who doesn't spend much time practicing is less likely to wound deer with a crossbow or a compound than a lazy trad.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Cold Weather said:


> since its all about the draw as our friend Rancid says, it therefore should follow that we ban blinds that allow one to shoot unseen.
> 
> I have to admit speaking as a bowhunter I've never found it that tough to get to draw, but then I prefer to bowhunt unalarmed deer that dont know I am there.
> 
> the biggest challenge I find is to get in range and an xbow doesnt help me.



It not just about the draw. Its about the resource in our state which is a big reason why majority public opinion is opposed to crossbows. its about The voice of the people. Our DNR surveys hunters to get their opinions on these types of matters. We also have what is called the Conservation Congress in which every hunter in the state is able to vote on these types of issues. All this input allows legislators in our state to understand the voice of the people and set laws based on the will of the people. Every state enjoys the ability to set laws based on the will of the people. We have a representative republic here in which each legislator is responsible to his constituents. Gun laws, game quotas, season length, Allowable weapons, etc are all part of a public process in our state. Creating or changing laws has to be of the people, by the people and for the people. There are few if any universal laws in regards to things like bowunting so states are able to set them as they deem correct as deemed by the voters of the state. 


Notice how I didn't have to mention important people when I make my points. Name dropping and repeated self promotion is a sure sign of............ Well, you know. :wink:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> It not just about the draw. Its about the resource in our state which is a big reason why majority public opinion is opposed to crossbows. its about The voice of the people. Our DNR surveys hunters to get their opinions on these types of matters. We also have what is called the Conservation Congress in which every hunter in the state is able to vote on these types of issues. All this input allows legislators in our state to understand the voice of the people and set laws based on the will of the people. Every state enjoys the ability to set laws based on the will of the people. We have a representative republic here in which each legislator is responsible to his constituents. Gun laws, game quotas, season length, Allowable weapons, etc are all part of a public process in our state. Creating or changing laws has to be of the people, by the people and for the people. There are few if any universal laws in regards to things like bowunting so states are able to set them as they deem correct as deemed by the voters of the state.
> 
> 
> Notice how I didn't have to mention important people when I make my points. Name dropping and repeated self promotion is a sure sign of............ Well, you know. :wink:


you are telling falsehoods again

the majority of the public doesn't care or is misinformed

when people have the information and realize people like you make up stories in order to exclude others, you all lose


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> the majority of the public doesn't care or is misinformed.



My, aren't we full of ourselves? That's the elitist we all know. You have no clue about the hunters in WI. They are an engaged and informed bunch. You hate that the majority does not share your opinion so in usual JimC Style, they become stupid and not worthy of making a proper choice. sorry bud but so long as the majority make the call on crossbows, its always the right thing to do for the resource and the season and the hunters. Vox populi . 

Perhaps they would change their minds if you came and told us who you know and the words of some people you think are important that agree with you. That would change everything here. Tell them they are too misinformed to do the right thing and that you got this all figured out for us. :wink:

Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Epic Fail!


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> My, aren't we full of ourselves? That's the elitist we all know. You have no clue about the hunters in WI. They are an engaged and informed bunch. You hate that the majority does not share your opinion so in usual JimC Style, they become stupid and not worthy of making a proper choice. sorry bud but so long as the majority make the call on crossbows, its always the right thing to do for the resource and the season and the hunters. Vox populi .
> 
> Perhaps they would change their minds if you came and told us who you know and the words of some people you think are important that agree with you. That would change everything here. Tell them they are too misinformed to do the right thing and that you got this all figured out for us. :wink:
> 
> Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Epic Fail!


I laugh at your attitude

most people don't bowhunt

if they were as educated about archery as I am, they would know that there is no rational reason to treat crossbows differently from compounds

if they learned about what truly motivates people like you, they would probably vote to ban you from ever being on public land


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Thank Gawd I hunt private land jimbo. :wink:




Jim C said:


> if they were as educated about archery as I am.



Don't you just hate the rest of the people on earth? If only we could get rid of the different people huh? :wink:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thank Gawd I hunt private land jimbo. :wink:


which is a rather strange paradox

why are you so worried about what someone else will use on lands you don't go on

other than someone confusing you with a crossbow hunter


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> which is a rather strange paradox
> 
> why are you so worried about what someone else will use on lands you don't go on
> 
> other than someone confusing you with a crossbow hunter


As has been ignored by you countless times, there are 19 units in WI in which gun and bowhunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer. Many other units have only a few hundred antlerless tags available. The current legal weapons have proven more than enough to not only reduce the herd but to over harvest the herd. This is why gun hunters have been calling for a shortening of the gun season and stripping bowhunters of our antlerless tags. Couple that with the fact that the majority are opposed to crossbows. and you will understand why not just me but the majority of WI hunters are working to keep our current laws. The legislators understand it. I'm surprised you struggle so with the concept. This was already covered in the WI thread. You would do well to go back and re-read it if you are having problems remembering why.

also, There is no chance that I would ever be confused with a crossbow hunter. I use a bow and I am a bowhunter. Big difference. :wink:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> My, aren't we full of ourselves? That's the elitist we all know. You have no clue about the hunters in WI. They are an engaged and informed bunch. You hate that the majority does not share your opinion so in usual JimC Style, they become stupid and not worthy of making a proper choice. sorry bud but so long as the majority make the call on crossbows, its always the right thing to do for the resource and the season and the hunters. Vox populi .
> 
> Perhaps they would change their minds if you came and told us who you know and the words of some people you think are important that agree with you. That would change everything here. Tell them they are too misinformed to do the right thing and that you got this all figured out for us. :wink:
> 
> Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Epic Fail!


Jim C has a very relevant point that you seem to be dismissing and that is the attitudes of the public in general. I have a rather complete study of attitudes of the public toward hunting and hunters and the attitudes of the public is ambivalent about methods generally.

What you are saying is that in Wisconsin, those opposed to crossbows outnumber those for. However, this is related to the sample of the poll. 
Where hunters need to focus on is the general public, rather than just a small sample of hunters. What also needs to be addressed by all is who is it who pays for hunting.... 

Archery is paid for by all, compound, crossbow, recurve and longbow. Not just your personal picks. The other thing of interest, is that today, the majority of the funds for shooting sports that are siphoned to Pittman Robertson are NOT from hunters... fancy that... it is from TARGET SHOOTERS and it seems that they are the ones that need to be encouraged to participate in this debate along with "other" hunters.

Crossbows are a form of archery. You seem to think that it matters to the game. It doesn't. That is where your argument becomes disenguous, and you talk of elitism, yes, and the elitism is from the Bowhunters of your group.

It may not happen tomorrow crabtree, may not happen on tuesday either, but no matter the weeks, we will prevail and you know why Crabtree.... its because of the attitude... we don't care about who hunts with us. I don't care who hunts with me. I hunt with ONLY a longbow and occasionally with a recurve. Does a compound bow shooter threaten me? No. Does a crossbow shooter? No. Do either of them affect the game I hunt? NO! So that is the story... and its the same everywhere... and soon others will recognize it.

Martin Luther King said it and he was right... we saying it, and we are right too.

Much Aloha... :beer: By the way.... I'm improving on yer poem..... :grin:


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Im sorry but I keep reading that and laughing my tail off. I don't care who you are, that was a darn good poem. I don't coach poets and cant claim credit for the accomplishments of others but that was just darn good poetry. :wink: Its worth another read.


Indeed it does Crabtree... very nicely done......


There once was a guy named Joe 
He hunted with an arrow and bow
With game nearby he held the draw
It required commitment, and without flaw

Along came hunters with stocks, scopes and bolts
But bowhunting folk just thought they were dolts
But Joe seemed to think that it looked like real fun
And crossbows turned out to be second to none

A crossbows not legal for game in Wisconsin 
But shooting one often was more fun than his johnson
And though not infirm Joe couldnt take it for hunting 
With a fun handy crossbow, and now rules need confronting


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## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Couple that with the fact that the majority are opposed to crossbows. and you will understand why not just me but the majority of WI hunters are working to keep our current laws. The legislators understand it. I'm surprised you struggle so with the concept. This was already covered in the WI thread.
> 
> There is no chance that I would ever be confused with a crossbow hunter. I use a bow and I am a bowhunter. Big difference. :wink:


Who exactly voted for the poll about crossbows? Was it open to ALL liscened hunters? Or was this poll just amoung licened archery/bowhunters? Just curious if indeed ALL hunters vote on this or was it restricted to just a certin segiment of the hunting population....A BIG difference!! 



> There is no chance that I would ever be confused with a crossbow hunter. I use a bow and I am a bowhunter. Big difference.


Fortunately that BIG difference is only in your mind! And this attitude of you are some how better than other hunters BECAUSE of your weapon of choice defines exactly who you are! So part of the reason YOU oppose crossbows is because you are superior because you make your own arrow? You will never get it with that attitude and luckly on other WI sites those hunters are getting it too!


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## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> Jim C has a very relevant point that you seem to be dismissing and that is the attitudes of the public in general. I have a rather complete study of attitudes of the public toward hunting and hunters and the attitudes of the public is ambivalent about methods generally.
> 
> What you are saying is that in Wisconsin, those opposed to crossbows outnumber those for. However, this is related to the sample of the poll.
> Where hunters need to focus on is the general public, rather than just a small sample of hunters. What also needs to be addressed by all is who is it who pays for hunting....



Nearly all the bowhunters are gun hunters. Our attitudes run parallel. When the WI DNR surveys deer hunters, it surveys both gun and bowhunters. The DNR was kind enough to ask Bowhunters and gun deer hunters many of the same questions when they conducted there 2009 hunter surveys so we are able to compare the attitudes of Bowhunters to our gun hunting counterparts. Not surprising, gun hunters and Bowhunters (since they are many times the same person) are giving the same responses. See below.


Question 5 for the Bowhunter survey and question 9 for the gun hunter survey asked the same question:


*"How strongly do you oppose or support a 4-day antlerless-only GUN hunt in mid-October for management units 20% or more above goal?"*


For both groups, the number one reply was "Strongly oppose" (which is odd because the Oct. hunt is a firearms hunt making one speculate bow and gun hunters would differ in their opinions)


Question 22 for the bow survey and question 25 for the gun survey asked :


*"Think about the number of deer you saw during the entire season. How satisfied are you with the number of deer you saw?"*


Bowhunters, 81.1% dissatisfied............ Gun hunters 86.7% dissatisfied.


Question 23 for the bow survey and question 26 for the gun survey asked:


*"Please check all of the factors below that you believe affected the number of deer you saw during your 2009 archery deer hunt."*


both groups selected "Declining local deer populations as the number 1 answer.


Question 24 for the bow survey and question 27 for the gun survey asked:


*" Please check all of the factors that may have limited the amount of time you spent deer hunting this fall."*


Both groups gave the same reply as the number one reason which was " Not enough deer in my area to hunt"


Question 21 for Bowhunters and question 22 for gun hunters asked :


*" Please rate the factors that most influence your perception of a “quality” deer hunt."*


Both groups gave the same answer as their number one reply. "Seeing deer". Not surprising, their 2nd choice matched as well.


Question 19 for Bowhunters and question 21 for gun hunters asked:


*" Overall, how would you rate the quality of your 2009 hunt? (Check Only One.)"*


Both groups picked "Very low" as their number 1 reply.


Question 20 for only the Bowhunter survey asked:


*" How much confidence do you have in the DNR’s estimate of the deer herd in Wisconsin?"*


84.1% had little to no confidence. The gun hunters (if asked) would certainly have said the same thing.


Logic insists that the attitudes towards crossbows would carry over into the gun hunters since its about the resource for all WI deer hunters. Our population is in decline. The current number of hunters and the current legal weapons have over harvested the deer herd. This is especially important to gun hunters since they realize that crossbows mean more hunters killing more deer prior to the gun deer season. That is a point that is not missed by the gun hunters. Now, thanks to the data from Michigan showing the spike in crossbow permits when crossbows were only allowed in the LP, we are able to clearly show this. Now that crossbow have expanded statewide in MI and they have the stamp and separate harvest data, we will be able to monitor the situation. Thanks MI. 

As I have shown here on numerous occasions with links and news stories from WI, gun hunters that don't bow hunt want the rut. They want to shorten the early bow season because of their concern with bowhunters taking too many deer from the slumping population. Also, last year was an attempt to strip bowhunters of the antlerless tag. We will monitor MI and will show that the increased number of hunters targeting deer during prior to the gun season would be repeated here if laws were changed. States with slumping numbers of bowhunters coupled with high deer populations could certainly lead the public to favor crossbow expansion. That is not however the case in WI. Despite jimbos bogus and baseless assumption that WI hunters are misinformed, they are keenly aware of what is going on and they understand that a push for crossbow comes from an industry based on profit alone with no concern for the WI deer herd or for bowhunters or the season. Thankfully, the crossbow industry and others that stand to profit from crossbow expansion are good enough to provide that info to us in writing. Thanks ACF. :wink:


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## BigBirdVA

*Michigan Crossbow Inclusion State Wide Passed? *


Is Michigan a part of Wisconsin or are they somehow connected via the game departments? I thought this was about inclusion in MI ? Whoohoo for MI! They finally got it right there. 

Why is there so much about another state in here. Maybe a thread on WI needs to be made? Oh wait we did that and it was locked. Guess it's time to accept the fact it's done and over and shouldn't be revived over and over again in any and every post the word xbow appears in.

Tim50 don't keep getting sucked back into the debate mode. This is about MI and not who's next.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Read the last paragraph of my post. MI is mentioned and important and relevant to my comments. It seems some object when good points are made. The more they object, the better the points must have been.


Me thinks you duth protest too much. (a little Billy Shakespeare for ya) :wink:


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