# Anyone care to guess what this meeting is about in London tomorrow night?



## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Nobody?


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Top


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Well??????? Lol


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

I dont think anyone knows what youre talking about


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## DedDeerWalking (Dec 10, 2009)

thare1774 said:


> I dont think anyone knows what youre talking about


This^^^


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

HUH. I'm not going.


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

Kind of my quess-----------What ya talking about???????????????????
What meeting, what London(England, Texas, Kentucky????????????????????)


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## PSE CRAZY (Feb 3, 2008)

Dale_B1 said:


> Kind of my quess-----------What ya talking about???????????????????
> What meeting, what London(England, Texas, Kentucky????????????????????)


Well seeing as he said K50 that should be a pretty good hint that it's London, Ky but way to go with all your smart*** remarks like always


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## Boubou (May 15, 2010)

thare1774 said:


> I dont think anyone knows what youre talking about


This.
What's a k50?


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## Boubou (May 15, 2010)

Dale_B1 said:


> Kind of my quess-----------What ya talking about???????????????????
> What meeting, what London(England, Texas, Kentucky????????????????????)


Dont forget London Ontario


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## Boubou (May 15, 2010)

PSE CRAZY said:


> Well seeing as he said K50 that should be a pretty good hint that it's London, Ky but way to go with all your smart*** remarks like always


Your remark is more smart*** than his.


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

PSE CRAZY said:


> Well seeing as he said K50 that should be a pretty good hint that it's London, Ky but way to go with all your smart*** remarks like always


Your help was what?????? Nothing, Nata, zilch. 
But thank you anyway stalker. The reason for this comment is IF you had read the response so far to the post NO ONE has a clue what he is talking about let alone the K50.


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## bernies boy (Aug 1, 2010)

there was a thread on here a while back about how some of the pros were wanting to move to K50 ( known distance 50 yds max ) and they were wanting to get more money into the class. I really don't know anything about ASA shoots; but that could be the reason for the meeting.


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## jhall239 (Oct 4, 2011)

PSE CRAZY said:


> Well seeing as he said K50 that should be a pretty good hint that it's London, Ky but way to go with all your smart*** remarks like always


I dont have a dog in this fight but this is the only smart remark I have seen^^^^^^^^^^
OP was pretty vague with his information and folks asking for more


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## RossRagan (Jan 6, 2015)

jhall239 said:


> I dont have a dog in this fight but this is the only smart remark I have seen^^^^^^^^^^
> OP was pretty vague with his information and folks asking for more


Agree! BernieBoy finally added some content that made sense.


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

Did chance move k50 for this shoot?


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## iheart archery (Dec 12, 2012)

I believe this is what he was referring to. I figured BJ would post something about it...but nothing yet.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Forgive me as I would've assumed everyone knew what I was talking about. Last night at the ASA shoot in London, KY, members of the known 50 class or folks who plan on shooting that class in the future met with mike tyrell about the possibility of making that class an official pro class. This has been a hot topic of debate among the 3D community as both sides of the fence hash out whether 3D should remain unknown in the pro ranks or if it should move to known distance, as some folks think this will grow the sport.


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

That would have been interesting I bet. Look forward to hear the outcome(s) of that


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

Dale_B1 said:


> Your help was what?????? Nothing, Nata, zilch.
> But thank you anyway stalker. The reason for this comment is IF you had read the response so far to the post NO ONE has a clue what he is talking about let alone the K50.


Incorrect, per usual. He's talking about the recent push and subsequent backlash to make the known 50 yard class in ASA 3D shoots a major deal. Most likely, seeing as how it is an ASA thing I'm going with London, KY, and I've only been shooting since January and I know this. So, just because you don't know, it doesn't mean NO ONE knows.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Keep it civil please guys. I'm just curious as to what was said at the meeting


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## Boubou (May 15, 2010)

jhall239 said:


> I dont have a dog in this fight but this is the only smart remark I have seen^^^^^^^^^^
> OP was pretty vague with his information and folks asking for more


So,the only way for this remark to be smart, is that k50 stands for,knowntucky50, which would make it obvious that it was London Ky.
Did not know there was a London in Kentucky until about 3 am this morning.
Anyways, what's the result of the meeting, as I am curious to know where the sport will go?


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

robbyreneeward said:


> Keep it civil please guys. I'm just curious as to what was said at the meeting


I here the meeting was not as civil as this thread. Sounds as though it got pretty heated between some.


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

Well maybe somebody that was actually there will chime in and sheday some light


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

K50 basically admitted that they aren't as good as pro, that they don't want $275 entry like pro, that they want pro contingency and that they don't think it hurts anything to have another pro class in name only. They wanted to elect a "pro chair" to be the voice of all (known and unknown) to Mike T. No one liked the idea.

This came from someone who was there


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ik they want a pro K50 class the registration cost and everything else should be the same as unknown class. I personally would like to see a pro K50 class, it would bring a lot of shooters from other types of target shooting into the competition. More participation equals more money for the organization and it benefits the sport of archery.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

robbyreneeward said:


> K50 basically admitted that they aren't as good as pro, that they don't want $275 entry like pro, that they want pro contingency and that they don't think it hurts anything to have another pro class in name only. They wanted to elect a "pro chair" to be the voice of all (known and unknown) to Mike T. No one liked the idea.
> 
> This came from someone who was there


That's pretty close. It got very interesting and heated to say the least.


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but like the class. It sounds like they want to be recognized as a pro class with regular fees and pro payout if I'm hearing right.


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## w8indq (Dec 9, 2013)

thare1774 said:


> I dont think anyone knows what youre talking about





DedDeerWalking said:


> This^^^





turkeyhunter60 said:


> HUH. I'm not going.





Dale_B1 said:


> Kind of my quess-----------What ya talking about???????????????????
> What meeting, what London(England, Texas, Kentucky????????????????????)





Boubou said:


> This.
> What's a k50?


Chessus, I'm from new zealand and I know what he was talking about


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Huntin Hard said:


> That's pretty close. It got very interesting and heated to say the least.


Were you at the meeting?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I think I read somewhere where the K50 class has 80 shooters in there at this tournament! One shooter of note that changed to K50 is Eric Griggs; there are others, too. I heard that contingency money has been put up for the K50 (not sure about K45), so the "pot" is going to be sizeable what with nearly double the number of shooters entering that class as opposed to Unknown Pro.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

field14 said:


> I think I read somewhere where the K50 class has 80 shooters in there at this tournament! One shooter of note that changed to K50 is Eric Griggs; there are others, too. I heard that contingency money has been put up for the K50 (not sure about K45), so the "pot" is going to be sizeable what with nearly double the number of shooters entering that class as opposed to Unknown Pro.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Pretty sure Chance Beaubouef, Scott Starnes, and Dave Cousins are all shooting K50 as well. And yes there were 72 shooters in that class I believe.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

robbyreneeward said:


> Pretty sure Chance Beaubouef is shooting K50 as well. And yes there were 72 shooters in that class I believe.


Don't know for sure about Chance. However, BowJunky posted this on FB several hours ago:

Record pace today as *80 K50 guys finished in under 3 hours *has a serious tip of the cap to Mike Tyrrell and the Archery Shooters Association for organizing 1979 shooters.
These are your top 5 K50 men going into tomorrow's shootdown. 
Hauser 42 up
T. Marlow 44 Up
J. Malone 42 up
M. Irvin 44 Up
C. Wilson 42 up

I don't see anything on the leaderboard for the Unknown Pro Men or the Semi Pros. BowJunky can only be in one place at a time.

The K50 is the fastest growing class in 3-D and now that there is contingency money being offered in that class, things will grow exponentially in that class. ASA made a wise decision to go with known yardage a few years back and the benefits are now being reaped by all archers, because ASA has a spot where anyone and everyone can come and play the game, learn the game and "advance" to unknown if they so choose to try it.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

robbyreneeward said:


> Pretty sure Chance Beaubouef, Scott Starnes, and Dave Cousins are all shooting K50 as well. And yes there were 72 shooters in that class I believe.


Wonder why Chance would swap classes mid-season? He shot Open Pro the first few tourneys.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

field14 said:


> *The K50 is the fastest growing class in 3-D and now that there is contingency money being offered in that class, things will grow exponentially in that class*. ASA made a wise decision to go with known yardage a few years back and the benefits are now being reaped by all archers, because ASA has a spot where anyone and everyone can come and play the game, *learn the game and "advance" to unknown if they so choose to try it.*


That's the thing...if K50 is growing so fast, it may eclipse the unknown class, hence why would anyone "advance" to unknown once they learn the game if unknown is no longer relevant because of the rapid growth and popularity of K50?

It's essentially turning 3D into field archery with animal targets. Basically the "animal round" of field archery, but now with 3D targets instead of paper targets. lol


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

robbyreneeward said:


> Were you at the meeting?


 Yeah I was there. It was suppose to last less than 30 min and ended up almost 2 hours. The main argument I see between both is that the open pro guys don't want the k50 guys to be considered to be pro because they don't judge but the k50 guys are saying why can the open pro guys switch to it if it isn't a pro class in the ASA's eyes.

There's way more than that but I don't feel like typing it but pm me with your cell and I'll tell you over the phone. 



robbyreneeward said:


> Pretty sure Chance Beaubouef, Scott Starnes, and Dave Cousins are all shooting K50 as well. And yes there were 72 shooters in that class I believe.


Chance didn't shoot but Starnes and cousins did. Andy Callaway was supposed to shoot k50 but changed this morning back to open pro.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

K50 should never be considered on the same level or expect the same pay as the open pro guy's. Guessing yardage is most of the point of 3d, its what sets 3d apart from other venues. Its what makes 3d great and its most of the game really because know matter how good of a shot you make its not any good without the right yardage number. Its what seperates the foam punchers from the spotties, it burns the spotties up that a foam puncher like levi can win in their sport but they can't win in his!


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## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

573mms said:


> K50 should never be considered on the same level or expect the same pay as the open pro guy's. Guessing yardage is most of the point of 3d, its what sets 3d apart from other venues. Its what makes 3d great and its most of the game really because know matter how good of a shot you make its not any good without the right yardage number. Its what seperates the foam punchers from the spotties, it burns the spotties up that a foam puncher like levi can win in their sport but they can't win in his!


Pretty much on point.


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## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

573mms said:


> K50 should never be considered on the same level or expect the same pay as the open pro guy's. Guessing yardage is most of the point of 3d, its what sets 3d apart from other venues. Its what makes 3d great and its most of the game really because know matter how good of a shot you make its not any good without the right yardage number. Its what seperates the foam punchers from the spotties, it burns the spotties up that a foam puncher like levi can win in their sport but they can't win in his!


couldn't say it better myself


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

So here is my question.....if participation is up......and Mike shares purse......and contingency is supported by the industry.......what is the complaint?????? If they pay higher money to shoot in the class.....they get more money out.....and ASA has the best and fairest payback of any association in archery. The ONLY downside I see......is that the industry does not typically support (and cannot afford to) known yardage archery (outside).
A shooter has a choice....get good at yardage and compete in a 3D competition......or eliminate the yardage and deal with lower suppport. 
IMO the K50 guys are all the same guys who are phenomenal shooters but realize that known yardage archery in the US is not paying anything ......and ASA is.


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## slowtech63 (Feb 5, 2014)

I understand them wanting a K50 pro class but them wanting to not raise entry fees????? That will never get off the ground.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

slowtech63 said:


> I understand them wanting a K50 pro class but them wanting to not raise entry fees????? That will never get off the ground.


That's the thing. 80-90% of the k50 class is okay with the entry fee being 275$.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

573mms said:


> K50 should never be considered on the same level or expect the same pay as the open pro guy's. Guessing yardage is most of the point of 3d, its what sets 3d apart from other venues. Its what makes 3d great and its most of the game really because know matter how good of a shot you make its not any good without the right yardage number. Its what seperates the foam punchers from the spotties, it burns the spotties up that a foam puncher like levi can win in their sport but they can't win in his!


And this is exactly why ASA will stay a niche' sport in archery. Remember it's called archery, not range guessing. Do you think the best golfers in the world are known for their ranging ability? Some of the best archers in the world shoot archery and could care less about judging yardage. Archery is the backbone of this sport and should take precedence period. What the current Pro's worry about is their Open Pro class will soon become irrelevant by size and payout if K50 keeps going. Imagine Schlosser, Deloche, Wilde and Broadwater start entering these events. This would bring the true archery fan both domestic and international to the sport. That brings the big sponsors and TV also. I say all this as a 3d junky but also an archer that understands we shoot archery at the end of the day.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

robbyreneeward said:


> I don't have a dog in the fight because I don't shoot or aspire to shoot K50, I'm just being nosy. Whoever goes to the meeting post here what it ends up being about!


Not trying to belittle here, but there are people that don't shoot ASA or Shoot K50. So some noted in some manner and then some popped off at the mouth to these people. I've been a ASA member since 2005. I know K50 exists, Open or if you wish Free Style type bows, and that just about it.
.
.


robbyreneeward said:


> K50 basically admitted that they aren't as good as pro, that they don't want $275 entry like pro, that they want pro contingency and that they don't think it hurts anything to have another pro class in name only. They wanted to elect a "pro chair" to be the voice of all (known and unknown) to Mike T. No one liked the idea.
> This came from someone who was there


Have to give Mike credit, having a open meeting on the subject. And Mike does listen or the ASA wouldn't be what it is today.
Pretty much thought the entry fee would be a sore spot. Can't remember for sure, but think entry fee was thee subject when K50 came into being or shortly after.
I am of the opinion of if you want to play the game then you pay to play the game. However, I've heard the "moans" of some winning out of Semi Pro and some of it being the entry fee, but more from going up against those who pretty much dominate the Pro Class.

K50 as is gives a place for those can't win in Pro, but sooner or later some one will dominate K50 and then what?

No don't doubt that those putting up contingencies will weigh heavily on the final out come and so will bow sponsors.


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## slowtech63 (Feb 5, 2014)

At the meeting they made it pretty clear they did not want 275 entry fee


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

shamlin said:


> And this is exactly why ASA will stay a niche' sport in archery. Remember it's called archery, not range guessing. Do you think the best golfers in the world are known for their ranging ability? Some of the best archers in the world shoot archery and could care less about judging yardage. Archery is the backbone of this sport and should take precedence period. What the current Pro's worry about is their Open Pro class will soon become irrelevant by size and payout if K50 keeps going. Imagine Schlosser, Deloche, Wilde and Broadwater start entering these events. This would bring the true archery fan both domestic and international to the sport. That brings the big sponsors and TV also. I say all this as a 3d junky but also an archer that understands we shoot archery at the end of the day.


I remember back in the late 80s and early 90s when 3D archery and tourneys were really starting to get huge, the main appeal to them for the masses was the yardage guessing as it was more of a hunting type situation style shoot, unlike field archery which was king at the time. Unknown yardage appealed to a HUGE segment of people who shot bows back then since they could use that experience and directly apply it to help with hunting. I think having a known yardage class is perfectly fine as it appeals to a certain segment of the archery community who aren't all that interested in judging yardage. Archery is archery, and the top shooters will move to whatever class the main competition is in. But to think making a move towards known yardage in 3D will help to grow the sport is ignoring the reality of what made 3D archery huge in the first place. I think many of the shooters you named that you think would come over to 3D simply prefer to shoot international competition that focuses on spots. That's what they love to do, and whether 3D stays unknown or move to known probably will be irrelevant to them since they simply prefer to shoot paper spots over animal targets.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

The thing you guys have to remember is that the fight isn't all about entry fees. It's about contingeny too. K50 had 72 shooters this weekend. If the entry fee was doubled but contingeny wasn't at the "pro" level you're going to lose quite a few people. 

K50 winning contingency is a grand for the companies paying. With the entry fee the way it is now the winner will take home a check from asa for about a grand(give or take). So notwithstanding any other smaller conts you'll take home $2kish for winning. If the entry fee is raised I would expect k50 would lose half the participants. The final payout would be about the same(assuming mfg conts stay the same). So now you're risking double for the same payback. 

Now if Asa makes k50 a "pro" class and mfgs up their conts, that money has to come from some where. They either pony up more money to pay(which I don't think is right) or they restructure their program(take money from the other pro classes to pay for k50). I think this is where some of the pushback is coming from. 

The other pushback is from the guys that are really really good at judging. They have a distinct advantage, and if I could do it I would use it to my advantage too. 

Making it all known turns 3d into a shooting competition. Unknown is a judging and shooting competition. Now mike and the mfgs have to decide what they are behind and what will make the sport grow more.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

BillyRay said:


> I remember back in the late 80s and early 90s when 3D archery and tourneys were really starting to get huge, the main appeal to them for the masses was the yardage guessing as it was more of a hunting type situation style shoot, unlike field archery which was king at the time. Unknown yardage appealed to a HUGE segment of people who shot bows back then since they could use that experience and directly apply it to help with hunting. I think having a known yardage class is perfectly fine as it appeals to a certain segment of the archery community who aren't all that interested in judging yardage. Archery is archery, and the top shooters will move to whatever class the main competition is in. But to think making a move towards known yardage in 3D will help to grow the sport is ignoring the reality of what made 3D archery huge in the first place. I think many of the shooters you named that you think would come over to 3D simply prefer to shoot international competition that focuses on spots. That's what they love to do, and whether 3D stays unknown or move to known probably will be irrelevant to them since they simply prefer to shoot paper spots over animal targets.



Unfortunatley, you are referenceing the sport for how it was 30 years ago. If you choose to stay stagnant and refuse to evolve with reality as time moves on and technology moves on you fall behind. reference- IBO. nothing wrong with them making their own decisions but they refuse to evolve because they follow a similar 30 year old opinion. Im not jabbing anyone personally, just pointing out the obvious facts. Myself for example, I feel my equipment is so good it keeps me shooting well even with little time to practise with real life getting in the way. The time i can muster to practise i want to spend shooting my bow, because i love to shoot my bow. The normal blue collar guys like me just dont have the extra time to sink into yardage anymore when your raw shooting ability has to be at an incredible level to compete near the top in ANY ASA class anymore. This is where we find a haven in KNOWN. We get to do what we love (shoot our bow) and still compete in 3D. CAN i judge yardage? yes i can. decently. decent doesnt stand up anymore. Why would I want to go into competition ill preparred?


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

with all the contingency talk, did elite offer up the $5k in the k50 class?


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

If they want to make ASA Grow , bring it out west of the Mississippi , Thousands of archers out here are itching to have sanctioned Archery...Look who lives out here and we have squat for ASA or IBO sanctioned events

Steve Anderson
Tim Gillingham
Reo Wilde 
Logan Wilde
Dee Wilde
Henry Bass
Page Pierce
Randy Ulmer
Tony Harbough
Kevin Wilkey
Rob Morgan
Tate Morgan
Paul Tedford
Aaron Tedford
Kris Shaff
Greg Poole

And the List goes on...

Not to mention some of the companies putting up contingency money are from out west

Granted there are more archers per capita out east...But it would bring more money to the ASA having USA regional events...North West , South west, North East, South East...I know its not that simple but if you want archery and money to grow there are other ways to skin that cat...

Bottom line , if you want more participation to make the sport grow , you have to expand 



wolf44 said:


> The thing you guys have to remember is that the fight isn't all about entry fees. It's about contingeny too. K50 had 72 shooters this weekend. If the entry fee was doubled but contingeny wasn't at the "pro" level you're going to lose quite a few people.
> 
> K50 winning contingency is a grand for the companies paying. With the entry fee the way it is now the winner will take home a check from asa for about a grand(give or take). So notwithstanding any other smaller conts you'll take home $2kish for winning. If the entry fee is raised I would expect k50 would lose half the participants. The final payout would be about the same(assuming mfg conts stay the same). So now you're risking double for the same payback.
> 
> ...


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Pretty sure mike has no interest in traveling outside of his area


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Asa may be growing, but unless an outside entity buys Asa I don't see it expanding its reach by much if any


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Topper1018 said:


> This is where we find a haven in KNOWN. We get to do what we love (shoot our bow) and still compete in 3D. CAN i judge yardage? yes i can. decently. decent doesnt stand up anymore. Why would I want to go into competition ill preparred?


That's great and all right now. But what happens when the KNOWN classes start handing out big contingency and payouts and it fills up with shooters who have more time to practice and are more prepared than you are? It won't be the haven you want it to be anymore. The best shooters are going to follow the money. It's not the ASA's fault that shooters go into competition ill prepared. I understand your situation of not having enough time to practice and prepare for shoots like we want. I'm in the same situation as you. I'm not against known classes by any means. I think having a known class is a great thing. I doubt I would ever shoot it, but I think its great for those like you who feel it better suits your level of shooting. But if the entire premise behind wanting a class is to cater to shooters who come to shoots ill prepared or can't compete in the unknown classes, it really begins to sounds like archery's version of "no child left behind", in that it sounds as if they want to be shooting for money and payouts equal to the Pro classes, but they don't feel like they are good enough to compete in the Pro classes. I will always believe that 3Ds bread and butter is the concept of having to judge yardage. And that's where most of the money should be funneled to those classes. No doubt I think known classes should get a piece of the pie for competing, but I just don't believe it should be on equal footing.

All of this is my opinion though, and we know what they say about opinions. Lol :wink: I could be completely wrong here. In the end, whatever direction ASA, or archery in general decides to go, I will be right there with it. In the end for myself, archery is archery. And I will enjoy shooting it regardless. Whatever rules are in place, they will apply to us all and lets just go shoot. :shade:


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

BillyRay said:


> I remember back in the late 80s and early 90s when 3D archery and tourneys were really starting to get huge, the main appeal to them for the masses was the yardage guessing as it was more of a hunting type situation style shoot, unlike field archery which was king at the time. Unknown yardage appealed to a HUGE segment of people who shot bows back then since they could use that experience and directly apply it to help with hunting. I think having a known yardage class is perfectly fine as it appeals to a certain segment of the archery community who aren't all that interested in judging yardage. Archery is archery, and the top shooters will move to whatever class the main competition is in. But to think making a move towards known yardage in 3D will help to grow the sport is ignoring the reality of what made 3D archery huge in the first place. I think many of the shooters you named that you think would come over to 3D simply prefer to shoot international competition that focuses on spots. That's what they love to do, and whether 3D stays unknown or move to known probably will be irrelevant to them since they simply prefer to shoot paper spots over animal targets.


I agree with you, as I was one of those guys. But there has been one glaring difference between then and now and it's called a rangefinder. Back in the 70's and 80's rangefinders were too big, bulky and expensive, so judging was a requirement for most hunters. That was the catalyst to get 3D off the ground. Today I bet less than 5% of hunters head into the woods without a rangefinder. So no one is needing the yardage guessing anymore. Regarding shooting the paper vs foam; field archery where these same individuals compete shoot a day of animal rounds. Yes it's paper, but it's an animal on a bale. The other thing is these guys are following the money. Make a Pro class, known with large sponsors and the big dogs will be there. They just love flinging arrows. The knock 3D gets is it takes 3 to 4 hours to shoot 20 arrows. In most other events they shoot 120 plus arrows in the same time.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> The thing you guys have to remember is that the fight isn't all about entry fees. It's about contingeny too. K50 had 72 shooters this weekend. If the entry fee was doubled but contingeny wasn't at the "pro" level you're going to lose quite a few people.
> 
> K50 winning contingency is a grand for the companies paying. With the entry fee the way it is now the winner will take home a check from asa for about a grand(give or take). So notwithstanding any other smaller conts you'll take home $2kish for winning. If the entry fee is raised I would expect k50 would lose half the participants. The final payout would be about the same(assuming mfg conts stay the same). So now you're risking double for the same payback.
> 
> ...


How many were in the "Unknown" Pro class (Men's) this past weekend? Were there 72 or more? Nobody has ever said, so I'm just asking that.
If there were only 30-40 in Pro...and in K50 there were 72....then it stands to reason....that the Unknown Pro class is a bit concerned because there are so few of them...if it is the case...and that spells some problems with payouts.
Also doesn't ASA only payout one place for ever FIVE competitors in a class, and the ASA % payout is also a bit _lower_ than the NFAA standard payout schedule to boot? What is the % pay-back to the SHOOTERS for the registration fee of $275? 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

shamlin said:


> I agree with you, as I was one of those guys. But there has been one glaring difference between then and now and it's called a rangefinder. Back in the 70's and 80's rangefinders were too big, bulky and expensive, so judging was a requirement for most hunters. That was the catalyst to get 3D off the ground. Today I bet less than 5% of hunters head into the woods without a rangefinder. So no one is needing the yardage guessing anymore. Regarding shooting the paper vs foam; field archery where these same individuals compete shoot a day of animal rounds. Yes it's paper, but it's an animal on a bale. The other thing is these guys are following the money. Make a Pro class, known with large sponsors and the big dogs will be there. They just love flinging arrows. The knock 3D gets is it takes 3 to 4 hours to shoot 20 arrows. In most other events they shoot 120 plus arrows in the same time.


The Redding format is hugely successful! 2 shots per target, ranges 4 to 101 yards, 3-D animals, and people are flocking to this type of venue! KNOWN yardage. 
Now, BowJunky also made a solid point that the K50 shooters were done shooting in WAY LESS THAN 3 HOURS!!! This means that the shooters are getting through the course more quickly, and that could open ranges up for MORE SHOOTERS because things are moving along more quickly, too! A "range time" for 40 shots of around 6-7 hours is a bit much! I realize the restrictions and the time it takes to supposedly guess yardage...but...the delays are self evident, too.

The one thing that I do NOT think should be done with ASA (or IBO), however is to put aiming dots on the 3-D's...leave that to the Redding type formats! Part of the aura of 3-D is the ability to "pick a spot" on the animal, when there really is NOT a clearly designated "Spot" to aime at...the shooter has to make their own aiming point! PLEASE don't put aiming dots into ASA 3-D events!!!
GOing into an event "ill prepared" is common place for a high percentage of competitors. However, it is a well known FACT that if a person doesn't have access to, or cannot afford to BUY and PRACTICE ON the "test" of 20 targets for "uknown" they you don't stand any sort of a chance at all of winning. The top dogs in unknown OWN a complete set of the targets being used for this season! So, take that investment and pro-rate it out of their winnings...Most are "down" $3,000 or so before the season even starts (unless someone gives them the targets, that is).
field14 (Tom D)


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

The question that I have is what if k50 entry fee was as much as open pro. Would there of been 70+ shooters in that class? And also the London pro am for the past few years has been at record attendance. So it seems asa picked the biggest pro am to advertise these record number of shooters in k50. Why couldn't this k50 push been done at the Paris pro am? Historical one of the smallest pro ams. My opinion is pro's fighting over contingency money doesn't sound like anybody is worried about growing the sport of archery.


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## acesbettor (Mar 19, 2009)

field14 said:


> How many were in the "Unknown" Pro class (Men's) this past weekend? Were there 72 or more? Nobody has ever said, so I'm just asking that.
> If there were only 30-40 in Pro...and in K50 there were 72....then it stands to reason....that the Unknown Pro class is a bit concerned because there are so few of them...if it is the case...and that spells some problems with payouts.
> Also doesn't ASA only payout one place for ever FIVE competitors in a class, and the ASA % payout is also a bit _lower_ than the NFAA standard payout schedule to boot? What is the % pay-back to the SHOOTERS for the registration fee of $275? 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%?
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


There were 80 in K50 and 49 in Open pro.
http://www.asaarchery.com/IP/index.php/scoring-system/current-tournament-scores


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## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

shamlin said:


> I agree with you, as I was one of those guys. But there has been one glaring difference between then and now and it's called a rangefinder. Back in the 70's and 80's rangefinders were too big, bulky and expensive, so judging was a requirement for most hunters. That was the catalyst to get 3D off the ground. Today I bet less than 5% of hunters head into the woods without a rangefinder. So no one is needing the yardage guessing anymore. Regarding shooting the paper vs foam; field archery where these same individuals compete shoot a day of animal rounds. Yes it's paper, but it's an animal on a bale. The other thing is these guys are following the money. Make a Pro class, known with large sponsors and the big dogs will be there. They just love flinging arrows. The knock 3D gets is it takes 3 to 4 hours to shoot 20 arrows. In most other events they shoot 120 plus arrows in the same time.


I don't know how you came up with the 5% number. But I personally know more hunters who do not own one than ones that do.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Sorry but you have to put the aiming dots on the targets also. This way a guy with no targets to practice with knows where to shoot the target. 

Just put up bag targets and save money on targets. You really don't have to shoot rubber targets.

We now have a variable known distance dot shoot.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

The extra contingency money has to come from somewhere. Theyre sure not gonna take it from the Open Pros. Its going to be taken from the backs of Senior Pros and Womens Pros, who already dont get enough credit. Why would anyone support taking contingency money from the hard working womens pros who have earned their way there by judging and putting the time in to support the Known 50 guys that "dont have time or money". If anyone doesnt have time or money, its the women. Period. 

The thing that kills me the most is that the top winners in the K50 class when ALOT of money. By the end of the year, they should have plenty of money to buy a range from the ASA. If they are good enough to shoot 44 up on a course, then they are obviously practicing something. These reasons are just phony excuses by these top shooters to not have to compete against the REAL pros.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

SMshootsmathews said:


> If they are good enough to shoot 44 up on a course, then they are obviously practicing something. These reasons are just phony excuses by these top shooters to not have to compete against the REAL pros.


^^Pretty much this!! K50 isn't a haven for people who either don't have time to practice or come to the tournament ill prepared.


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

robbyreneeward said:


> Forgive me as I would've assumed everyone knew what I was talking about. Last night at the ASA shoot in London, KY, members of the known 50 class or folks who plan on shooting that class in the future met with mike tyrell about the possibility of making that class an official pro class. This has been a hot topic of debate among the 3D community as both sides of the fence hash out whether 3D should remain unknown in the pro ranks or if it should move to known distance, as some folks think this will grow the sport.


Enlightenment! You are forgiven! 

I am interested in the topic for one reason - I'd like to see if the next step is taken to distance the sport of 3D archery from its originally intended purpose - to help bowhunters be better judges of distances in "hunting" situations. I watched the sport of sporting clays grow from the English's game of simulating real bird hunting situations with guns not allowed to be shouldered and the puller given 0-3 seconds to pull the bird to a sport where 65 yard shots at trajectories no bird could simulate with guns shouldered are common. Also, if a puller doesn't immediately pull the bird, the shooter gripes and moans and lodges complaints to the officials! In other words, we changed the game and in my opinion, not for the better.

I'm interested in this because I stink at judging distances and my admiration for guys like Levi Morgan comes more from their uncanny ability to judge distances than for their superior ability to shoot a bow. I'm very novice at 3D and Saturday when I showed up at a 3D tournament under ASA rules, it was suggested I shoot in "bow novice". I accepted, but for grins I ranged the targets from the "pro" stakes in my head before shooting from the blue stakes. I shot 320 from the "baby tee's". I guarantee you I would have shot at least 75-100 points worse had I had to judge distances at targets out to 50 yards. I had a lot of fun, but I didn't learn much or take great pride in my "win".

My point is that whatever happens, ASA needs to preserve classes that require shooters of all abilities to have to shoot from unknown distances. Sure, we can't make it where everyone in the tournament has to judge distances out to 50 yards. That would reduce interest in the sport fast. However, if someone wants to puff out their chest and tell everyone they're shooting in the PRO class, they'd better have "pro skill sets" and be able to shoot well and judge distances well. I know I'm not there yet, but I'm glad there are those of you who are to watch.


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## nchunter (Dec 4, 2003)

It seems to me it is up to the sponsors to pay the contingency. Let the bow companies, sight cos., ect... determine what they want to pay for each class. 
The set winnings will be determined by how many people participate and how much $$ there is in entry fees. I know the pros make way more off of contingency so they should lobby to the manufacturers for the $$$ to be made available for each class. ASA should just set the classes and let the manufacturers and pros work out the extra contingency $$. There are already too many classes that seem to dilute the pool. Why not make the classes as follows and eliminate any others:

(NO OPEN C)
Open B - half known/ half unknown - $50 entry fee
(once you win out of B class, you have a choice ALL Known or ALL unknown.)
Open A- unknown - $50 entry fee
Semi-Pro - unknown - $125 entry fee
Open Pro - unknown - $275 entry fee
Known A - known - $50 entry fee
Semi-Pro Known - known - $125 entry fee
Known Pro - known - $275 entry fee
Senior Pros and Ladies Pro's have a known and unknown each.

Hunter - half known / half unknown
Unlimited - all unknown

Ladies classes mirror the above unless there is low participation (less than 20 shooters) and then eliminate the low part. classes.

All seniors and youth classes shoot half know / half unknown

Keep the stipulations the same as far as money won and # of top 10 finishes to win out of a class. Make it transparent as far as the class you are allowed to shoot. (i.e. If you are required to shoot semi-pro, you can shoot either known or unknown. When you have to move up, shoot either of the pro classes.)

I think there needs to be a set division and strict move up rules in place and enforced to make the Pros truly relevant and hopefully grow the sport giving all archers from all venues a place at the ASAs.

I will say that ASA has ALWAYS done a fantastic job of looking at the future and trying to grow the sport while giving archers a choice, and I believe that is what they are doing now.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

So WOA (womens semi, practically) wouldnt get any contingency because of low participation? 

This explained my point perfectly. Thanks.


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## mthcharlestown (Jan 17, 2013)

573mms said:


> K50 should never be considered on the same level or expect the same pay as the open pro guy's. Guessing yardage is most of the point of 3d, its what sets 3d apart from other venues. Its what makes 3d great and its most of the game really because know matter how good of a shot you make its not any good without the right yardage number. Its what seperates the foam punchers from the spotties, it burns the spotties up that a foam puncher like levi can win in their sport but they can't win in his!


I don't participate in any of this as of now but wasn't the original idea of unknown yardage 3d shoots to enable Bowhunters to practice for hunting? Nowadays with rangefinders being so widely used, I don't really see the of an unknown yardage tournament. The pros aren't even using hunting equipment as I understand it....they use target equipment. What's the point? Finally, if you want the most money you have to do what will get the greatest number of shooters. Being able to guess yardage is certainly not any kind of test of shooting skill...its a test of skill from a bygone era...time and technology have passed it by. If you want to continue with u know yardage, why not make it really good and go back to recurves?


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Here's my take after talking with a couple pros over the weekend.

It's all about money, that's what Mikes goal is as well as the pro's shooting the courses. K50 was going no where then they lowered the entry fee, if you raise it again and make it a pro class you're just switching everything. 80% of the shooters in K50 will drop out cause they can't compete with the pros. It will drop back to what it was if the money goes up and you keep the pro's as unknown.

The rumor about all amateur known classes was started by a certain vendor which is totally untrue, there is no plan to change amateur classes to all known. 

ASA did a great job with a ton of shooters, it was a well run fun event. Changes that need to be addressed.
Give the option for some to shoot all in one day or not, some like it, most don't.
Give a Friday option for shooting, this will help with the mass of people (241 shooters in Open C) and make Sat more bearable for some
Have all ranges shoot one side each day rather than half and half (10 on one side then 10 on opposite side), this will alleviate slowing down for corners against other ranges. It will also give you about two more lanes on each end which could be a whole other range. 
Have a local group (Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts) run a snack and drink cart between lanes, keeping procedes for their organization. Win, win IMO.
Cut the lanes wider on practice ranges so we can see what target we're shooting.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

mthcharlestown said:


> I don't participate in any of this as of now but wasn't the original idea of *unknown yardage 3d shoots to enable Bowhunters to practice for hunting*? Nowadays with rangefinders being so widely used, I don't really see the of an unknown yardage tournament. The pros aren't even using hunting equipment as I understand it....they use target equipment. *What's the point*? Finally, if you want the most money you have to do what will get the greatest number of shooters. Being able to guess yardage is certainly not any kind of test of shooting skill...its a test of skill from a bygone era...time and technology have passed it by. If you want to continue with u know yardage, why not make it really good and go back to recurves?


you just stated it. Many hunters/shooters love the fact that you have to work on yardage estimation. just like about everything else in this country now. "Let's just dumb it down so it's easier".


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

robbyreneeward said:


> Pretty sure Chance Beaubouef, Scott Starnes, and Dave Cousins are all shooting K50 as well. And yes there were 72 shooters in that class I believe.


Chance has not committed to K50 yet. He is still shooting Open Pro as of the last tournament in KY. He has openly said if contingencies are established in the K50 and its made a pro event he will shoot K50. Possible by next year he will be a K50 shooter.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

This is stupid people think k50 deserves something because its a bigger class. Wouldn't it only stand to reason that the top pro class be smaller than most because they are the best, the elite. There are only so many best in the world to be considered PRO'S for a reason if it was the biggest class on the coarse it would be a joke! I think the open pro class is to big now hell over half the class don't have a chance of winning. It should be harder to win out of a class to move up and nobody should be able to shoot pro class just because the payed their entry fee's and didn't earn it. Judging yardage is what sets 3d apart from all other venue's of archery, it is whats great about 3d.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

573mms said:


> This is stupid people think k50 deserves something because its a bigger class. Wouldn't it only stand to reason that the top pro class be smaller than most because they are the best, the elite. There are only so many best in the world to be considered PRO'S for a reason if it was the biggest class on the coarse it would be a joke! I think the open pro class is to big now hell over half the class don't have a chance of winning. It should be harder to win out of a class to move up and nobody should be able to shoot pro class just because the payed their entry fee's and didn't earn it. Judging yardage is what sets 3d apart from all other venue's of archery, it is whats great about 3d.


Agreed. If it has to do with class size, Open C needs to be pro. LOL


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> The question that I have is what if k50 entry fee was as much as open pro. Would there of been 70+ shooters in that class? And also the London pro am for the past few years has been at record attendance. So it seems asa picked the biggest pro am to advertise these record number of shooters in k50. Why couldn't this k50 push been done at the Paris pro am? Historical one of the smallest pro ams. My opinion is pro's fighting over contingency money doesn't sound like anybody is worried about growing the sport of archery.


The Texas Pro Am was only the 2nd shoot with the K50 class. It also super-ceded the Open Pro in relation to shooter numbers. The Texas ProAm is and always will be the smallest shoot just based off the towns small size and inability to house additional shooters. Hell I live in TX and don't shoot it, because I am not staying in a hotel one hours drive from the course. Even thought the town does a lot for the ASA and I hear it is a great venue, I have been totally against the ASA continuing to shoot there as there will always be a finite number of shooters due to the lack of accommodations.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

bowtechnow said:


> I don't know how you came up with the 5% number. But I personally know more hunters who do not own one than ones that do.


It was just a arbitrary number that I threw out there. Like you I was born in the Midwest (Ohio), and yes I will give you that if you are a tree-stand hunter, limiting most shots to 20 yards, then yup, you might not need or have a rangefinder. All or most Western hunters who do not hunt out of a tree-stand, I will still bet carry a rangefinder. 
Regarding the ASA, there aren't any tree-stand type shots; hell your lucky to have 1 or 2 targets at 20 yards.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

shamlin said:


> The Texas Pro Am was only the 2nd shoot with the K50 class. It also super-ceded the Open Pro in relation to shooter numbers. The Texas ProAm is and always will be the smallest shoot just based off the towns small size and inability to house additional shooters. Hell I live in TX and don't shoot it, because I am not staying in a hotel one hours drive from the course. Even thought the town does a lot for the ASA and I hear it is a great venue, I have been totally against the ASA continuing to shoot there as there will always be a finite number of shooters due to the lack of accommodations.


I've been shooting asa for 3 or 4 years and there's always been k50 for at least that long. And I like Paris cause it's close. But your right about the accommodations. I wonder if Paris could handle 1600+ shooters. But for the amount of shooters they get is a great place to shoot.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

nchunter said:


> It seems to me it is up to the sponsors to pay the contingency. Let the bow companies, sight cos., ect... determine what they want to pay for each class.
> The set winnings will be determined by how many people participate and how much $$ there is in entry fees. I know the pros make way more off of contingency so they should lobby to the manufacturers for the $$$ to be made available for each class. ASA should just set the classes and let the manufacturers and pros work out the extra contingency $$. There are already too many classes that seem to dilute the pool. Why not make the classes as follows and eliminate any others:
> 
> (NO OPEN C)
> ...


This guy gets it.........great idea!!!!


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

Bullhound said:


> you just stated it. Many hunters/shooters love the fact that you have to work on yardage estimation. just like about everything else in this country now. "Let's just dumb it down so it's easier".


So you are saying what Broadwater, Schlosser, and Wilde do in Field and FITA shooting is "dumbing down".......unbelievable comment! I have shot these events and shooting a perfect score, let alone being "up" is practically impossible! Wanna make it tough, extend the range on Known Pro to 65 yards and get half the course out into a field.....now you gotta deal with the wind and elements!!


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> I've been shooting asa for 3 or 4 years and there's always been k50 for at least that long. And I like Paris cause it's close. But your right about the accommodations. I wonder if Paris could handle 1600+ shooters. But for the amount of shooters they get is a great place to shoot.


Yea you are right, I meant making it a K50Pro class.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

How in the world did you take from what he said means he is talking about any of those shooters and the venue they choose to shoot?


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

shamlin said:


> The Texas Pro Am was only the 2nd shoot with the K50 class. It also super-ceded the Open Pro in relation to shooter numbers. The Texas ProAm is and always will be the smallest shoot just based off the towns small size and inability to house additional shooters. Hell I live in TX and don't shoot it, because I am not staying in a hotel one hours drive from the course. Even thought the town does a lot for the ASA and I hear it is a great venue, I have been totally against the ASA continuing to shoot there as there will always be a finite number of shooters due to the lack of accommodations.


Well....You have 7 more years to boycott the only ASA event west of the Mississippi and the only ASA event in your home state.:teeth:

Two easy solutions for accommodations. Make your reservations for Paris as soon as the 2016 ASA schedule is announced or call me. I have always been able to find rooms for shooters thru my contacts at the Paris Chamber of Commerce


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I would like to see more sponcers on all ranges from local businesses . For example out back steak house donates 1000 to c range . Dairy Queen does the same for l range . It don't have to all go to the pros for it to grow this sport. Pepsi coke and other companies can get involved more people will come. Competition will grow more pros will be developed. I was at that meeting it needed a moderator . And rules for speaking. People are people some get mad and a little out of line . Most made good points


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

tagged


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## nchunter (Dec 4, 2003)

Contingency is money paid by sponsors for using equipment. ASA does not pay contingency. ASA only pays out based on shooter participation and money taken in from entry fees. 

I do think that in order for a class to be relevant there needs to be some minimum amount of participation or else you just dilute the field.

I agree that the Pro classes should be the smallest classes with the best shooters and have the highest contingency $$. I also think that a person should have to work their way up to being a "Pro" and therefore be rewarded for that work when they get there and win. By making a known route and an unknown route you allow the shooters to choose their discipline and go with it. If someone does not want to pay to shoot the "Pro" known class then let them shoot the Open known, then Semi-Pro known with lower entry fees and work their way up into the "pro" class when they have won enough $$ or have enough top 10 finishes. 

I do see the trend that having the known classes pulls in more new shooters from other archery disciplines and that has to be a good thing for the sport and ASA. As far as taking money from unknown classes to go to the known classes, that should not happen since ASA pays based on the people in that respective class. Again contingency money comes from outside sponsors, and it is up to them to pay as they see fit or as they see the best benefit for them business-wise. 

I do agree that the overall best ASA shooter should be recognized as the unknown Pro, but there does seem to be a marketable place for the known guys too.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

shamlin said:


> So you are saying what Broadwater, Schlosser, and Wilde do in Field and FITA shooting is "dumbing down".......unbelievable comment! I have shot these events and shooting a perfect score, let alone being "up" is practically impossible! Wanna make it tough, extend the range on Known Pro to 65 yards and get half the course out into a field.....now you gotta deal with the wind and elements!!


no. THAT is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Broadwater & Schlosser, if they wanted to shoot Pro in 3D, would buy a range and learn how the judge. They arent the ones wanting k50 to be pro class. It's the ones who want the easy way out. They want their own pro class to dominate because they cant compete with they big boys, and they dont want to try. There are no excuses that cover up for this. Period.

Also, shooting a perfect score or up is FAR from impossible at an ASA. Very Far. In any mens class, you have to be at least 20 up in to be even close to the top. Heck, even the traditional shooters shoot up.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I just seen on tv that the pro baseball league was going to use pitching machines and have kids run the bases because it would be easier on their pro athletes and football was going to use flags no more tackling its just way to hard on them. It should be practically the same and shouldn't change the game at all. This day and age its all about whats easier why should anybody have to put any hard work and effort into being considered a pro anyway!


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

shamlin said:


> So you are saying what Broadwater, Schlosser, and Wilde do in Field and FITA shooting is "dumbing down".......unbelievable comment! I have shot these events and shooting a perfect score, let alone being "up" is practically impossible! Wanna make it tough, extend the range on Known Pro to 65 yards and get half the course out into a field.....now you gotta deal with the wind and elements!!


nope, you're missing the point. 3D shoots are, and were, started for one thing. the spot shooters want it to be something different. You want to re-define what 3D is. I did not disparage any of those archers in any way. they are obviously great.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> How in the world did you take from what he said means he is talking about any of those shooters and the venue they choose to shoot?


I was wondering the same thing................


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

Bullhound said:


> nope, you're missing the point. 3D shoots are, and were, started for one thing. the spot shooters want it to be something different. You want to re-define what 3D is. I did not disparage any of those archers in any way. they are obviously great.


Yep, I agree. Reo Wilde blows my mind in how well he can shoot targets at 70 meters. Uncanny. But this is not the same as 3D, which simulates *animals* in field situations. Different game altogether. 

The truth is that I don't know enough about ASA 3D tournaments to engage in intelligent conversation about all the vagaries of the classes and rules. All I'm saying is that when all the smoke clears, I hope there is still a class of "pro" shooters that must compete by shooting *animal* targets out to 50 yards at unknown distances up and down hills and in and out of forests. That would separate the wheat from the chaff in my opinion.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

573mms said:


> I just seen on tv that the pro baseball league was going to use pitching machines and have kids run the bases because it would be easier on their pro athletes and football was going to use flags no more tackling its just way to hard on them. It should be practically the same and shouldn't change the game at all. This day and age its all about whats easier why should anybody have to put any hard work and effort into being considered a pro anyway!


In 3D Archery you are correct you dont have to put in any work to become a PRO all you have to do is pay the fee and guess what you are a PRO.. Name anthother sport with LEGIT Pro Class that all you have to do is pay to play and be a PRO ???? The Sport will always be considered a hobby and nothing more until rules and requirements are set to become a PRO and Stay a PRO.... And the most ridiculous thing is that the 3D Archery Pros compete for prize money out of there own pocket.....Name another sport with a Pro Class that does this ??? The Pro Class should be free and you should have to earn your way into the class and meet requirements to stay. Sponsors should pay the winnings. And another thing if you place in the top 20 in the Pro Class you should at least earn enough money to travel and eat on. The guys that should be upset are the ones in the Pro Class that consistantly finish in the Top 20 and go broke. The top 4 or 5 guys sitting at the head of table dont care they are getting paid already.

3D Archery as a Sport has allot of bigger issues for sustained growth than the issue of K50 being a Pro Class that topic should be way down on the list..


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Its pretty obvious where the Open Pros stand on this issue too--hence why there were no pro updates all weekend.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

shamlin said:


> The Texas Pro Am was only the 2nd shoot with the K50 class. It also super-ceded the Open Pro in relation to shooter numbers. The Texas ProAm is and always will be the smallest shoot just based off the towns small size and inability to house additional shooters. Hell I live in TX and don't shoot it, because I am not staying in a hotel one hours drive from the course. Even thought the town does a lot for the ASA and I hear it is a great venue, I have been totally against the ASA continuing to shoot there as there will always be a finite number of shooters due to the lack of accommodations.


What are you talking about - I have shot there the past few years. Never once have I heard anyone complain about having to drive an hour because of rooms. Heck my parents drove up from San Antonio and made accomidations the week of.

The number of shooters has to do with the distance from a big chunk of them. So many of them are much closer to the east coast they aren't making the drive. It is a great venue and Paris is a greatful host....I always stay at the H.I express and its gorgeous and great prices.


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## mthcharlestown (Jan 17, 2013)

It is hypocritical to say unknown distance sets a shooter apart when they are allowed to shoot freestyle. If someone wants to be arrogant about the whole thing, why not eliminate scopes and long stabilizers? As noted, it was started to help Bowhunters, not for the "special ones".


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

45er said:


> Yep, I agree. Reo Wilde blows my mind in how well he can shoot targets at 70 meters. Uncanny. But this is not the same as 3D, which simulates *animals* in field situations. Different game altogether.
> 
> The truth is that I don't know enough about ASA 3D tournaments to engage in intelligent conversation about all the vagaries of the classes and rules. All I'm saying is that when all the smoke clears, I hope there is still a class of "pro" shooters that must compete by shooting *animal* targets out to 50 yards at unknown distances up and down hills and in and out of forests. That would separate the wheat from the chaff in my opinion.


The Open Pro is that right now, but the same people are at the top week in and week out. For example the Top 3 have been the same the last 2 weeks just swapped positions around. A known distance class would bring in guy that can shoot but lack the judging skills to compete in unknown. It takes out the element of yardage judging and the true pure shooters will be shown. look at NFAA Spots or Vegas spots, different shooter Excel at those events and lack the scores at unknown 3d archery. Its a different animal (no pun intended).


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

mthcharlestown said:


> It is hypocritical to say unknown distance sets a shooter apart when they are allowed to shoot freestyle. If someone wants to be arrogant about the whole thing, why not eliminate scopes and long stabilizers? As noted, it was started to help Bowhunters, not for the "special ones".


It does set shooters apart, certain shooters shoot well known distance and some have the skill to judge yardage alot better than others. If you take the top ASA pros and put them on a line where they know the distance the playing field is even minus the shooting talent of the archer and who aims more steady and executes a better shot.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Garceau said:


> What are you talking about - I have shot there the past few years. Never once have I heard anyone complain about having to drive an hour because of rooms. Heck my parents drove up from San Antonio and made accomidations the week of.
> 
> The number of shooters has to do with the distance from a big chunk of them. So many of them are much closer to the east coast they aren't making the drive. It is a great venue and Paris is a greatful host....I always stay at the H.I express and its gorgeous and great prices.


^^^^ Thank You !!!

Several groups of shooters I know got rooms the week of the event 5 minutes from the shoot site. 

If you ever have any trouble getting a room please call Becky at the Paris Chamber of Commerce. She WILL find you accommodations in town.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

shamlin said:


> So you are saying what Broadwater, Schlosser, and Wilde do in Field and FITA shooting is "dumbing down".......unbelievable comment! I have shot these events and shooting a perfect score, let alone being "up" is practically impossible! Wanna make it tough, extend the range on Known Pro to 65 yards and get half the course out into a field.....now you gotta deal with the wind and elements!!


Better yet...do NOT announce which 20 targets will be on the courses for the entire season! Instead...make sure every tournament has DIFFERENT animals set up from a random selection of ALL available contracted animals on the 3-D pallette. So, the first tournament has 20 whatever...the 2nd tournament has a DIFFERENT selection of 20 animals and so forth.
One of the top PROS has often said that if he hadn't been able to afford to BUY THE TARGETS and "have the test", he would never stand a snowball's chance of winning anything.
So...mix things up, shoot different animals at every tournament and let's see what happens then!

Now, about the numbers. if you have 80 in KNOWN paying $275 for REGISTRATION fees and you have only 40 in UNKNOWN Pro paying the same registration fees...it is natural that the REGISTRATION payback will be DOUBLE in the K50 than it will be in the Unknown PRO! Dah. BUT...since there are double the number of shooters in K50 (in this example), then the payout is DEEPER...so first place will get a lower % of the total registration payout! Dah again. There is a payout schedule based upon how many shooters are registered in a class. ASA has a different one from the NFAA. ASA payout is LOWER than the NFAA Payout. NFAA pays deeper, too.
One more thing...it is total BS to take money from the registration fees of ANY class and give part of that money to some other class just to "beef up" the Men's PRO class. If that is happening, it is a travesty! That registration money paid by those people in any given class should belong to them and NEVER be robbed off to give to some other class to beef up their payout! 

IF the K50 is indeed doubling their numbers over the Unknown Pro...then of course the Unknown Pro are going to be worried! Only natural. And, with that, of course, they will start to bail out to go where the money goes, UNLESS...some manufacturers up and decided that if one of their shooters goes from Unknown Pro to K50, then said shooter loses their sponsorship from said manufacturer. That would be a manufacturer dictating to both their shooters and the ASA as to what and who they will and won't support and dictating who and what classes people will shoot...and trying to control the ASA to boot!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

mhill said:


> The Open Pro is that right now, but the same people are at the top week in and week out. For example the Top 3 have been the same the last 2 weeks just swapped positions around. A known distance class would bring in guy that can shoot but lack the judging skills to compete in unknown. It takes out the element of yardage judging and the true pure shooters will be shown. look at NFAA Spots or Vegas spots, different shooter Excel at those events and lack the scores at unknown 3d archery. Its a different animal (no pun intended).


We have venues that identify the best "shooter" based on shooting alone. This is 3d. Most of us who play it, like it for what it is. 

Known distance has its place. It isn't at the pro level in 3d.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mhill said:


> The Open Pro is that right now, but the same people are at the top week in and week out. For example the Top 3 have been the same the last 2 weeks just swapped positions around. A known distance class would bring in guy that can shoot but lack the judging skills to compete in unknown. It takes out the element of yardage judging and the true pure shooters will be shown. look at NFAA Spots or Vegas spots, different shooter Excel at those events and lack the scores at unknown 3d archery. Its a different animal (no pun intended).


I can agree to a point...but...since Levi and the other UNKNOWN pros know those targets stone cold from every angle and aspect...AND they can execute near perfect shots every time...if you put those "same 3 guys" that are winning in UNKNOWN and put them into K50...look out; at least until the other top "spotties" in K50 learn those targets as well as those UNKNOWN PRos know those animal targets.
Levi, Danny McCarthy, Gillingham and such are EXCELLENT Spot shooters too!


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

field14 said:


> I can agree to a point...but...since Levi and the other UNKNOWN pros know those targets stone cold from every angle and aspect...AND they can execute near perfect shots every time...if you put those "same 3 guys" that are winning in UNKNOWN and put them into K50...look out; at least until the other top "spotties" in K50 learn those targets as well as those UNKNOWN PRos know those animal targets.
> Levi, Danny McCarthy, Gillingham and such are EXCELLENT Spot shooters too!


I disagree... what happen to Levi at Redding? What happen to Danny at redding? what happen to Tommy? None of them were on the podium. Jesse Broadwater and Dave cousins are known guys, they shoot well at those events as they did in Redding. Im not really sure what Tate Morgans background is.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> We have venues that identify the best "shooter" based on shooting alone. This is 3d. Most of us who play it, like it for what it is.
> 
> Known distance has its place. It isn't at the pro level in 3d.


I agree, known is for Field/spot/Fita venues and amateur 3d. 3d is to simulate another sport and should be unknown distances just as it is in the woods while hunting. I was just commenting to what 45er was saying.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mhill said:


> I disagree... what happen to Levi at Redding? What happen to Danny at redding? what happen to Tommy? None of them were on the podium. Jesse Broadwater and Dave cousins are known guys, they shoot well at those events as they did in Redding. Im not really sure what Tate Morgans background is.


Redding is a SPOT shoot. There is a bright orange AIMING DOT on every 3-D animal! The shooters do not need to "know" the animals from every angle and aspect, nor do they have to "figure out" on their own a spot to pick to aim at; it is clearly evident.
When it comes to KNOWN 3-D, those 3-D animals do NOT have a defined, clearly visible orange dot to shoot at! The shooter must "make his/her own" aimng spot mentally or otherwise...and also must KNOW where that 12 or 14 ring (whatever) is located on that animal. Thus, that gives those in UNKNOW pro a whale of an advantage over a "spottie" that hasn't learned those 3-D animals just yet!
Heaven forbid if they ever put an "aiming dot" onto an ASA or IBO 3-D animal...that would be an atrocity and sacrilege! PLEASE...NO AIMING DOTS FOR ASA or IBO!!!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

mhill said:


> I disagree... what happen to Levi at Redding? What happen to Danny at redding? what happen to Tommy? None of them were on the podium. Jesse Broadwater and Dave cousins are known guys, they shoot well at those events as they did in Redding. Im not really sure what Tate Morgans background is.


Levi has won indoor nationals. McCarthy mis-set his sight at redding so he lost 11 points right off the bat. He was clean the rest of the weekend. Gillingham was what...3rd at lancaster?


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

field14 said:


> Redding is a SPOT shoot. There is a bright orange AIMING DOT on every 3-D animal! The shooters do not need to "know" the animals from every angle and aspect, nor do they have to "figure out" on their own a spot to pick to aim at; it is clearly evident.
> When it comes to KNOWN 3-D, those 3-D animals do NOT have a defined, clearly visible orange dot to shoot at! The shooter must "make his/her own" aimng spot mentally or otherwise...and also must KNOW where that 12 or 14 ring (whatever) is located on that animal. Thus, that gives those in UNKNOW pro a whale of an advantage over a "spottie" that hasn't learned those 3-D animals just yet!
> Heaven forbid if they ever put an "aiming dot" onto an ASA or IBO 3-D animal...that would be an atrocity and sacrilege! PLEASE...NO AIMING DOTS FOR ASA or IBO!!!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


A known orange dot should be even easier to shoot than a blank 3d target at a known distance. A pro 3d unknown archer should be able to aim for the orange dot and hit it if he has proper form right? This thread is proclaiming unknown 3d guys are the best of the best and would out shoot the typical known 3d archer and spot guys. That just goes to show you that maybe the unkown guys are not the best archers but the guys that have the whole package, judging, shooting, aiming at a blank target, course management. with a shoot like redding they eliminate the judging and aiming aspect because they know the yardage and give you the scoring spot to hit. now it comes down to the shooting and course management. 

Unknown 3d has a lot more entailed and more strategy and a plethora of other skills other than just shooting hence why there is always the same handful of shooters at the top. i believe that any good shooter has a better chance to have his day on a known course where you wont have that on the unknown course due to the other skills required to be a great unknown shooter.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I seriously doubt the handful of folks (USA Archery) that were shooting in Turkey this past week-weekend would have stayed home to shoot K50 if it was a Pro class..... 
You can NOT simply make the current K50 class a Pro class! If there is to be a Known pro class it has to be created. If K50 is made a Pro class what exactly would happen to the archers currently shooting K50 that don't want to be "Pro" paying higher dues and having to shoot as a Pro in all other archery organizations? Can they drop back to K45? Can they roll into Open B? In the middle of a season?!?!?............ No!

It seems some folks desire changing the current K50 to "Pro" because they think it will enhance their status. Others think it will force manufacturers to pay bigger contingency. 

It seems we are getting to the point where another K50 class may soon need to be created and I'm not talking "Pro Known"! Maybe there should be a new K50 class that is between K45 and the current semi-pro K50. Maybe it's a 45 yard class called K45-A. It would follow the current ASA model of Open B, Open A and Semi-Pro.

As it stands now I don't think there is anything to stop a business from paying a top archer such as Delmar Woodlawn a hefty contingency for winning the current K50 class.

Label K50 a "Pro class", jack the entry fee up and see how many archers drift away from it. How many new archers will jump in because of the new label? 

I understand there are a _handful _of archers that want to leverage the popularity of K45 and K50 to put money in their pocket. But you can't force people to be a "Pro" and you can't force "sponsors" to pony bigger bucks. The only reason some companies are offering contingency in K50 is because the class has become more popular NOT because a handful of archers have pressured them to do so. It's a fact that K50 is doing just fine as it is!


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

SMshootsmathews said:


> Levi has won indoor nationals. McCarthy mis-set his sight at redding so he lost 11 points right off the bat. He was clean the rest of the weekend. Gillingham was what...3rd at lancaster?


Levi has probably won every tourny possible over his career but when shooting known tournaments, like indoor nationals, vegas, redding he has other competitors and a larger field to shoot against and i believe this would be the case for K50, these guys that shoot known archery would come to ASA and be contenders once they learn the targets and where to aim.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

mhill said:


> Levi has probably won every tourny possible over his career but when shooting known tournaments, like indoor nationals, vegas, redding he has other competitors and a larger field to shoot against and i believe this would be the case for K50, these guys that shoot known archery would come to ASA and be contenders once they learn the targets and where to aim.


"Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


Exactly.......

I can't stand bowjunky anymore. The guy just doesn't get it, and his attitude is horrendous


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


I see your point. If spot and field guys wanted to come they would have already or asked for a format change to accompany them. Has any of the Open Pro guys been all for it? Seems like just Chance has state he would move if the money was in that class. I dont see any benefit for the top guys who consistently shoot at the top of open pro. I could see the guys that hang near the bottom moving over to known so they can have a chance at the podium. If your good at a class stick with it if its paying off.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

mhill said:


> Levi has probably won every tourny possible over his career but when shooting known tournaments, like indoor nationals, vegas, redding he has other competitors and a larger field to shoot against and i believe this would be the case for K50, these guys that shoot known archery would come to ASA and be contenders once they learn the targets and where to aim.


Why would they bother with shooting ASA when they are busy representing their countries in international competition? I think they've got enough on their plate already.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

mhill said:


> I see your point. If spot and field guys wanted to come they would have already or asked for a format change to accompany them. Has any of the Open Pro guys been all for it? Seems like just Chance has state he would move if the money was in that class. I dont see any benefit for the top guys who consistently shoot at the top of open pro. I could see the guys that hang near the bottom moving over to known so they can have a chance at the podium. If your good at a class stick with it if its paying off.


Gillingham is a vocal advocate of known distance 3d. I think most pros have said that they'd shoot wherever the money is.


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## patmc81 (Jul 3, 2009)

jim p said:


> Sorry but you have to put the aiming dots on the targets also. This way a guy with no targets to practice with knows where to shoot the target.
> 
> Just put up bag targets and save money on targets. You really don't have to shoot rubber targets.
> 
> We now have a variable known distance dot shoot.


Aren't there cards with the aiming spots on them for each target?


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Gillingham is a vocal advocate of known distance 3d. I think most pros have said that they'd shoot wherever the money is.


Yes. Other than Tim, who is attempting to shove his ideals down anyone's throat that will listen. Eric Griggs shot K50 this weekend. And yes they will follow the $$$ wherever it goes. Can't say I Blame them. I think ol' Jason was given the what for this past weekend about 2 pro classes from what I was told by several people.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

patmc81 said:


> Aren't there cards with the aiming spots on them for each target?


Yes but you have to take the time to learn the cards and learn the targets in different angles and lighting conditions. Not as easy as a big orange spot on the target.


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## patmc81 (Jul 3, 2009)

Huntinsker said:


> Yes but you have to take the time to learn the cards and learn the targets in different angles and lighting conditions. Not as easy as a big orange spot on the target.


I really didn't know. I have only seen them online. I just started doing local 3d and just guess at the range then use the rangefinder to find out if I was right. Then just shoot where I think the kill zone would be! And no I don't turn in the score card lol


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

patmc81 said:


> I really didn't know. I have only seen them online. I just started doing local 3d and just guess at the range then use the rangefinder to find out if I was right. Then just shoot where I think the kill zone would be! And no I don't turn in the score card lol


Haha that's exactly what I do too. Maybe some day I'll get more into scoring but for now, it's good practice for hunting and good fun.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Agree with Kent. If they are going to do it they will need to leave the current K50 alone and create a separate Pro K50.

I don't think most of the top pro's want a second pro class to dilute the contingency money.

I would be very surprised if this happens anytime soon.


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## bamajk (Apr 30, 2006)

jmann28 said:


> Exactly.......
> 
> I can't stand bowjunky anymore. The guy just doesn't get it, and his attitude is horrendous


I give BowJunky a little credit for the growth we have seen in ASA over the last couple years.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

P


SMshootsmathews said:


> no. THAT is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Broadwater & Schlosser, if they wanted to shoot Pro in 3D, would buy a range and learn how the judge. They arent the ones wanting k50 to be pro class. It's the ones who want the easy way out. They want their own pro class to dominate because they cant compete with they big boys, and they dont want to try. There are no excuses that cover up for this. Period.
> 
> Also, shooting a perfect score or up is FAR from impossible at an ASA. Very Far. In any mens class, you have to be at least 20 up in to be even close to the top. Heck, even the traditional shooters shoot up.


Why would any of the top national and international shooters go and buy a range to learn to judge yardage......they shoot arrows for a living! Every other discipline they shoot does not require yardage judging! 3D is the only archery discipline that requires it, that is why they have so few Pro shooters. 
Regarding your point on shooting up, you made my point exactly. You cannot shoot up on a " dumbed downed" discipline like Field Archery, where the yardage is given and you have a circle to aim at.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Watching the K50 shoot down was like watching paint dry
Boring! 
It was great to watch the real 3D pros on the shoot down.

If you want to shoot known, knock yourself out
Just don't try to force it down everyone else's throat.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

bamajk said:


> I give BowJunky a little credit for the growth we have seen in ASA over the last couple years.


But bowjunky is supposed to grow archery. Not the ASA. He knocks other organizations on the regular. If someone from Ohio wanted to shoot a national 3D and saw all the crap bow junky posts about them...would they really want to try archery? I am NOT making this an ASA/IBO debate, because we are all archers. Period. Bowjunky doesn't not share these views whatsoever. Putting one side of archery against another is bad for archery. The end! 

I 100% think known classes have grown archery at the national level. It is a great class for new, amateur shooters to compete and maybe win a little money in their pockets. If they want to become a professional, then they need to practice and commit as a professional. Otherwise, have fun in the amateur divisions.


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## BARBWIRE (Feb 12, 2015)

nchunter said:


> It seems to me it is up to the sponsors to pay the contingency. Let the bow companies, sight cos., ect... determine what they want to pay for each class.
> The set winnings will be determined by how many people participate and how much $$ there is in entry fees. I know the pros make way more off of contingency so they should lobby to the manufacturers for the $$$ to be made available for each class. ASA should just set the classes and let the manufacturers and pros work out the extra contingency $$. There are already too many classes that seem to dilute the pool. Why not make the classes as follows and eliminate any others:
> 
> 
> ...


I brought half/half thing up and an excuse was made against it like every thing else.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

shamlin said:


> P
> Why would any of the top national and international shooters go and buy a range to learn to judge yardage......they shoot arrows for a living! Every other discipline they shoot does not require yardage judging! 3D is the only archery discipline that requires it, that is why they have so few Pro shooters.
> Regarding your point on shooting up, you made my point exactly. You cannot shoot up on a " dumbed downed" discipline like Field Archery, where the yardage is given and you have a circle to aim at.



You don't get my point at all. I think Jesse at some point has tried 3d archery. If he absolutely loved it, then he would buy a range and learn it, just like he learns the diciplines he dominates. These pros that shoot spots, they have the money. They have the time. There is nothing holding them back. 

And here's the deal, I don't think Jesse give a hoot if k50 is pro or not. Like I said, if he wanted to shoot 3D he would have by now. It's not the big-name dot shooters wanting the change. It is the guys who don't want to compete against the big boys. Schlosser probably doesn't even know what the ASA is lol


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## arrow spitter (Nov 23, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


Well said. 
There is a lot of stirring the pot going on over this issue. The class is growing because of the way it is right now, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's a semi pro entry fee that pros can shoot and guys that want to be able to shoot non pro classes in other venues can as well. There is contingency slowly coming to the class.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

shamlin said:


> P
> Why would any of the top national and international shooters go and buy a range to learn to judge yardage......they shoot arrows for a living! Every other discipline they shoot does not require yardage judging! 3D is the only archery discipline that requires it, that is why they have so few Pro shooters.
> Regarding your point on shooting up, you made my point exactly. You cannot shoot up on a " dumbed downed" discipline like Field Archery, where the yardage is given and you have a circle to aim at.


I've heard, like others, how much can be made on the ASA and IBO circuit, but never what International spot shooters "knock down." So? Hey, just asking?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

arrow spitter said:


> Well said.
> There is a lot of stirring the pot going on over this issue. The class is growing because of the way it is right now, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's a semi pro entry fee that pros can shoot and guys that want to be able to shoot non pro classes in other venues can as well. There is contingency slowly coming to the class.


Can't find related... You can switch class once during the year - General Rules, D. So if a Pro shoots in the Pro class and "drops" down to K50 they are there for the remainder of the year. Same if one shoots in K50 and jumps to Pro, they are in Pro for the remainder of the year. Guess this correct...

Side bar; Some questions seem not want to be answered or some don't want the question asked.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> I've heard, like others, how much can be made on the ASA and IBO circuit, but never what International spot shooters "knock down." So? Hey, just asking?


Just saw a USA archery pic of Reo on the podium in 3rd holding a check for 500 Swiss Francs. First place had 2000 Swiss Francs which is roughly $2115 US.


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## acesbettor (Mar 19, 2009)

Huntinsker said:


> Just saw a USA archery pic of Reo on the podium in 3rd holding a check for 500 Swiss Francs. First place had 2000 Swiss Francs which is roughly $2115 US.


Considering airfare is probably over $1k(I'm not sure whats paid for by the sponcers).. Not very lucrative, but being able to represent your country would be great.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

acesbettor said:


> Considering airfare is probably over $1k(I'm not sure whats paid for by the sponcers).. Not very lucrative, but being able to represent your country would be great.


That's pretty much what I thought.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

I bet the guys in charge of the IBO are just giggling!!!!! Just waiting to pounce on the opportunity to gain a lot of its Unknown shooters back. You would think they would be working none stop to find a way to keep their integrity of the being a "hunting, judging yardage organization" intack but memic the ways of the ASA and how they are ran so great... Who am I kidding???


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


This right here is right on the money!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. This is being driven by BJ and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


Amen and well said! Tony!


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## Okie101 (Nov 1, 2009)

jmann28 said:


> Exactly.......
> 
> I can't stand bowjunky anymore. The guy just doesn't get it, and his attitude is horrendous


He never did or will get it and has a LOT of people fooled... I agree Tony.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

BowJunky/Hoyt lain:


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

jmann28 said:


> Exactly.......
> 
> I can't stand bowjunky anymore. The guy just doesn't get it, and his attitude is horrendous


He sure doesn't like it if someone disagrees with him, that's for sure. 



tmorelli said:


> "Those guys" won't come to 3d. If they wanted to shoot 3d, they would. Do you see any of them asking for the game to be changed so they can come play? Most of their schedules are already full of dot shoots. *This is being driven by BJ* and a few within the K50 class who want something for nothing and I'm frankly growing tired of it.


Bingo. I'm not really sure what it's going to do for him, either?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Hoyt wants their shooters to have a better chance. Hoyt/Bowjunky lain:

Hoyt has some great shooters.

Andy and Jack held their own.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

So what I gathered from the meeting is that nothing is changing in the ASA. If you want to be a Pro then buy a range and learn to judge. IMO making Pro 3D known is like making NFAA and FITA unknown. It just doesn't make sense. The Open Pro class will always be small and it should be. There were 60 shooters in the Open Pro class in London, KY. out of that 60 I'm guessing maybe a dozen or so had a snowball's chance in hell of getting a podium. The rest are just contributors. That being said these contributors still get all their entry fees as well as all their equipment paid for so at the end of the day it's hard to sympathize with them when I'm shelling out greenbacks for all my equipment and entry fees.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

As many have pointed out........ Known distance 3D is a great _part _ of the ASA. But that is NOT saying it is a good idea to overload with Known distance classes!

The folks that I know that really "believe" a "Known Pro" class would be a good thing for the ASA and 3D would immediately directly benefit. They also generally want the current K50 class converted to Pro and don't want a new Known Pro class created. The reason is that they know a new Known pro class would be small compared to the current semi-pro K50 class and therefor have less money in it. 

I don't believe there is anything that says because ASA labels a class "Pro" a sponsor has to pay a decent junk of change to a shooter. Many of the current big name Pro spot shooters wouldn't have the time to shoot a full schedule of ASA tournaments. 

I am currently shooting Senior Known. IF there was Senior Pro Known class I'd sign on tomorrow with no hesitation. I think there is a good chance that one day there will be a semi-pro or Pro Senior Known class but I'm fairly certain I will be beyond the age of being even remotely competitive in it.

I can see a K50 being created between K45 and the current K50 class. I also think a new K40 class and converting Open C to half and half is necessary.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

P


SMshootsmathews said:


> You don't get my point at all. I think Jesse at some point has tried 3d archery. If he absolutely loved it, then he would buy a range and learn it, just like he learns the diciplines he dominates. These pros that shoot spots, they have the money. They have the time. There is nothing holding them back.
> 
> And here's the deal, I don't think Jesse give a hoot if k50 is pro or not. Like I said, if he wanted to shoot 3D he would have by now. It's not the big-name dot shooters wanting the change. It is the guys who don't want to compete against the big boys. Schlosser probably doesn't even know what the ASA is lol


I get what you are saying, but I disagree. These guys are professionals and they will follow the money, IMO. They shoot an Iowa indoor shoot that has been made big because of payout. There just isn't enough ROI for any of them to buy a range, learn the targets, etc. if they have a Pro K50 with contingency money from sponsors and OEM's I think they will eventually gravitate to the sport. I would just love to see them give 3D a try. Putting all the top shooters within a venue is awesome.......look at Vegas and Redding!


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

shamlin said:


> P
> I get what you are saying, but I disagree. These guys are professionals and they will follow the money, IMO. They shoot an Iowa indoor shoot that has been made big because of payout. There just isn't enough ROI for any of them to buy a range, learn the targets, etc. if they have a Pro K50 with contingency money from sponsors and OEM's I think they will eventually gravitate to the sport. I would just love to see them give 3D a try. Putting all the top shooters within a venue is awesome.......look at Vegas and Redding!


Money helps, but money isn't the end all, be all. Money means less if you are doing something that your heart isn't totally dedicated to. Alot of the top shooters who shoot dots over 3D, do it because they simply love it. They prefer that style of competition. That's where their heart and dedication is. Money can't buy that. Guys like Wilde and Broadwater clearly enjoy the idea of shooting on a world/international level, with the goal of representing the USA against shooters from other countries. They can't get that in 3D. Look at a guy like Frank Pearson who has been in archery for decades. He loves shooting spots and all the class and rules changes in 3D would have never pulled him to come shoot foam animal targets.

Your comment of "putting all the top shooters within a venue" makes it appear you think the world of archery should revolve around the ASA. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Archery is comprised of many venues, styles, and niches. There are always going to be shooters who love 3D over spots, and shooters who love spots over 3D. And no amount of rule or class changes is going to cause them to have a change of where their heart is. I agree with you that it would be great to have them all together in one venue, but that's just not reality. Vegas and Redding are great individual shoots. But trying to lure shooters to commit to an entire ASA schedule yearly is a completely different thing.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

cenochs said:


> In 3D Archery you are correct you dont have to put in any work to become a PRO all you have to do is pay the fee and guess what you are a PRO.. Name anthother sport with LEGIT Pro Class that all you have to do is pay to play and be a PRO ???? The Sport will always be considered a hobby and nothing more until rules and requirements are set to become a PRO and Stay a PRO.... And the most ridiculous thing is that the 3D Archery Pros compete for prize money out of there own pocket.....Name another sport with a Pro Class that does this ??? The Pro Class should be free and you should have to earn your way into the class and meet requirements to stay. Sponsors should pay the winnings. And another thing if you place in the top 20 in the Pro Class you should at least earn enough money to travel and eat on. The guys that should be upset are the ones in the Pro Class that consistantly finish in the Top 20 and go broke. The top 4 or 5 guys sitting at the head of table dont care they are getting paid already.
> 
> 3D Archery as a Sport has allot of bigger issues for sustained growth than the issue of K50 being a Pro Class that topic should be way down on the list..


I been saying the same thing for years!!

The way it stands now it's a joke, there's no money in it. Anybody can be a "sponsored shooter" if the want to pay cost for their equipment. 

Payouts are a joke, there is no other "professional" sport where if you are in the top 10% of shooters you don't get paid. 

Who wants to spend 3 12 hour days waiting in line, to then loose in the final arrows of the shoot off and go home with nothing. That's not complaining either, you can't win every shoot you enter there needs to be much more support. 

Let's talk about another issue, you basically need 4 days to shoot that is unless you live a hour or 2 away. Funny thing about almost all the guys that constantly win are centrally located to the organization or get paid to attend do to their jobs. 

If ASA is going to grow it needs to be a real sport, it amazes me with the popularity of archery in current themes of television and movies ASA has done nothing to capitalize on it. 

There needs to be a gateway in, something like a minor league. You should have to earn a spot to even start the shoot, not just show up and pay. It's too hybridized right now, do you see armatures playing the PGA tour while the pros are on the corse? Of corse not. 

This may not sound like the ASA anybody wants but if it's ever going to grow and compete on a national level with other sports that's what has to happen, of not it will always be a weekend warrior only type venue. 

I also think there should be a pro class for K50, even though there would be no need for it if the payouts were higher and deeper.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I don't think the ASA needs to grow anymore. 2,000 is a lot of shooters. How many are we trying to get at one venue?


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> I seriously doubt the handful of folks (USA Archery) that were shooting in Turkey this past week-weekend would have stayed home to shoot K50 if it was a Pro class.....
> You can NOT simply make the current K50 class a Pro class! If there is to be a Known pro class it has to be created. If K50 is made a Pro class what exactly would happen to the archers currently shooting K50 that don't want to be "Pro" paying higher dues and having to shoot as a Pro in all other archery organizations? Can they drop back to K45? Can they roll into Open B? In the middle of a season?!?!?............ No!
> 
> It seems some folks desire changing the current K50 to "Pro" because they think it will enhance their status. Others think it will force manufacturers to pay bigger contingency.
> ...


I agree with several comments here. Two Pro classes? Is there any other prestigious sport with 2 Pro divisions? Not that I'm aware of.

Having 2 Pro divisions would simply water down the sport that is already deeply separated by expertise and experience. it would cause sponsors to either split contingency money or pick one or the other to sponsor.

The last comment is very interesting after seeing what happened in London. Contingency money was offered and suddenly a new group of shooters came in and cleaned up. More money means more competition. If you can't win now, you sure are not going to win if more money is offered. Especially when the young guns show up!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Slingshot said:


> I been saying the same thing for years!!
> 
> The way it stands now it's a joke, there's no money in it. Anybody can be a "sponsored shooter" if the want to pay cost for their equipment.
> 
> ...


As you have pointed out through out this post there is not enough financial support for the current "pro" archers and then in your last sentence you say there should be more "pro" archers. How would increasing the supply of pro archers and/or pro archery games increase the demand for pro archers/pro archery games? Unless there is a greater market demand sponsors are not going to increase their funding of pro archers/pro archery games, i.e. XYZ archery would pay a K50 Pro and a Unknown distance 3D pro "A" dollars rather than a single pro "A*2" dollars.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> I don't think the ASA needs to grow anymore. 2,000 is a lot of shooters. How many are we trying to get at one venue?


I find myself asking "all this talk about growth....for the sake of growth?".... What's the end game? What are the consequences? I'm not convinced most have thought this out.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> I find myself asking "all this talk about growth....for the sake of growth?".... What's the end game? What are the consequences? I'm not convinced most have thought this out.


We are already talking about having a hard time to host the venue as it is. Very hard.

If it's going to grow, it needs to be in another region with more shoot dates, IMO. Not just the SE. 4 Regional orgs with a final Classic all combined for the top 25% of each region maybe.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> As you have pointed out through out this post there is not enough financial support for the current "pro" archers and then in your last sentence you say there should be more "pro" archers. How would increasing the supply of pro archers and/or pro archery games increase the demand for pro archers/pro archery games? Unless there is a greater market demand sponsors are not going to increase their funding of pro archers/pro archery games, i.e. XYZ archery would pay a K50 Pro and a Unknown distance 3D pro "A" dollars rather than a single pro "A*2" dollars.


I guess that part of my post wast lost in translation. 

I think a known distance should be available, maybe with different rules than there are now. Idk the best way maybe longer distance or what ever. 

With the current format there will always be more pros, really makes no difference what rules they shoot by. I think the k50 will prolly take over for one reason and that's it's a simpler version of the game we play now. Maybe not but I think that's where it's headed. 

My biggest point is nothing is gonna change unless the entire format changes. Rome wasn't built in a day but it started with a great idea. 

Nothing is gonna happen overnight but there needs to be steps taken at every available opportunity to change the game from the ground up.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Quote Originally Posted by Topper1018 View Post 

This is where we find a haven in KNOWN. We get to do what we love (shoot our bow) and still compete in 3D. CAN i judge yardage? yes i can. decently. decent doesnt stand up anymore. Why would I want to go into competition ill preparred?

this kinda thinking is why we don't keep score in youth sports and everyone gets a trophy.
I lose all the time I don't want a handicap because I can't shoot as well as others.
heck why even bother keeping score? we don't want our feelings hurt.
I don't think known yardage has a place in 3D but if that is what people want then the shots should be a lot harder. 
like these angles because 44 up is telling me its too easy for some. not me but when you are having 5-8 guys shooting 44 up they need to move on


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

When are people going to accept the fact that the amount of money available is directly related to the sports ability to market itself to non archery related companies and the general public?

Archery is not a sport that has any entertainment value to John Q. Public. Period. Therefore the only companies who are going to invest money into these tournaments and 'pro' classes are the archery companies themselves. 

And before anyone wants to bring up that the Olympics highest TV ratings were of the archery matches, the only reason is because people never see it, so it has a novelty effect. John Q. Public doesn't want to sit down on a Saturday evening and watch a bunch of people shoot at foam animals in the middle of the woods.

This sport is what it is. It's never going to be a mainstream form of entertainment where outside companies see value in investing money. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> I don't think the ASA needs to grow anymore. 2,000 is a lot of shooters. How many are we trying to get at one venue?


Bingo !!!!



tmorelli said:


> I find myself asking "all this talk about growth....for the sake of growth?".... What's the end game? What are the consequences? I'm not convinced most have thought this out.


Great assessment.

As Mike, Lorraine, Jenny and their part time range staff "recover" from the highest attended ASA Pro/Am ever "more growth" is the last thing they want to think about.



jmann28 said:


> When are people going to accept the fact that the amount of money available is directly related to the sports ability to market itself to non archery related companies and the general public?
> 
> Archery is not a sport that has any entertainment value to John Q. Public. Period. Therefore the only companies who are going to invest money into these tournaments and 'pro' classes are the archery companies themselves.
> 
> ...


Very true.......now if the competitors were shooting at each other a new audience might develop.:wink:


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Griggs a pro Marlo a pro . Dave cousins is a pro there is a lot more that shoots pro looks like to me these guys just moved back as armatures or it is a pro class your aloud one move a year


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> As you have pointed out through out this post there is not enough financial support for the current "pro" archers and then in your last sentence you say there should be more "pro" archers. How would increasing the supply of pro archers and/or pro archery games increase the demand for pro archers/pro archery games? Unless there is a greater market demand sponsors are not going to increase their funding of pro archers/pro archery games, i.e. XYZ archery would pay a K50 Pro and a Unknown distance 3D pro "A" dollars rather than a single pro "A*2" dollars.


The Nascar analogy would have worked but 3D archery is the only sport I know of that actually has went backwards in payouts. 15 years ago there was allot more morney in the sport because it had outside sponors. Instead of growing on this the sport went backwards.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> I find myself asking "all this talk about growth....for the sake of growth?".... What's the end game? What are the consequences? I'm not convinced most have thought this out.


Growth in my eyes is not making the Pro Ams larger it is funding better feeder organizations at the state level. Having more state sanctioned shoots and maybe license the ASA Product to a Pro AM tour on the West Coast and East Coast and then have a centralized National Championship (Classic). I would like to see it evolve one day that you would have to quailfy for a Pro AM through your Local and State Level to compete with best. Mike needs to change his business model from the way he makes money instead of putting all the work into Pro Ams start a grass roots level that pays him for the name and business model and his voice >>>>>


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

JimmyP said:


> Griggs a pro Marlo a pro . Dave cousins is a pro there is a lot more that shoots pro looks like to me these guys just moved back as armatures or it is a pro class your aloud one move a year


There are a lot more pro's in K50 than people know. They are NFAA Pro's.

I like the idea of regional shoots to make it to the nationals. When I ran Birddogs that was a way to make it to a National trial.

What if ASA over took Regions and started using regions shoots that are more midwest.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

We could talk for days about the problems with Regions but I think a lot of it is simply that the regional concept doesn't work. When you make the shoot "regional" attendance is too small to make it worth it. The pro-am's overcome this barrier and people travel like crazy to get to them.... because everyone else is, and the juice is worth the squeeze as a result.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Growth will be done at a local level.

Adding known distance pulls in more people at the local level also. It is the biggest class at my range and pays out the most.

Getting more people interested in archery is the way to go. The youth programs is going to be the key, and lots of PROmotion.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

cenochs said:


> Growth in my eyes is not making the Pro Ams larger it is funding better feeder organizations at the state level. Having more state sanctioned shoots and maybe license the ASA Product to a Pro AM tour on the West Coast and East Coast and then have a centralized National Championship (Classic). I would like to see it evolve one day that you would have to quailfy for a Pro AM through your Local and State Level to compete with best. Mike needs to change his business model from the way he makes money instead of putting all the work into Pro Ams start a grass roots level that pays him for the name and business model and his voice >>>>>


The ASA Federation (state level events) has set a new record this year with 206 state qualifiers and state championships scheduled. 

Here in Texas we have 25 state qualifiers (which includes 4 multi state qualifiers) plus the state championship on the 2015 schedule. We will have approximately 3000 total competitors for 2015. ASA gets $5.00 for every adult competitor so there is already an income stream generated from state level events. 

You actually have to shoot a state qualifier and your state championship (or receive a bye from ASA) to be eligible to shoot the ASA Classic Pro/Am.

To see a list of the ASA Federation state qualifiers click on this link:

http://www.asaarchery.com/IP/index.php/asa-federation/qual-dates-main-menu

To see a list of the Texas ASA Federation schedule click on this link:

http://texasasafederation.com/TexasFed.html


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> We could talk for days about the problems with Regions but I think a lot of it is simply that the regional concept doesn't work. When you make the shoot "regional" attendance is too small to make it worth it. The pro-am's overcome this barrier and people travel like crazy to get to them.... because everyone else is, and the juice is worth the squeeze as a result.


This is true.

In 2004 ASA had 4 regional events (North, East, West and South). ASA brought the registration trailer, their staff, the animals, they set a Sims range, they set an animal practice range, a bag target practice range, a long shot, they did the speed shoot, the whole nine yards. These events were mini Pro/Ams run by the ASA staff. The West regional at Trosper Park in Oklahoma City actually had the highest attendance of any of the regional events. With that being said the regional events did not draw well and ASA abandoned the regional program. 

I think that there are some areas of the US that would draw well to a properly promoted and run Pro/Am tour or regional event that is currently not being tapped by ASA and IBO. The key verbiage here is "properly promoted and run".


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I think people actually don't realize their are already 3 Pro divisions......

Men's, women's, and senior.

Everyone talking like their is only one.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

garceau said:


> i think people actually don't realize their are already 3 pro divisions......
> 
> Men's, women's, and senior.
> 
> Everyone talking like their is only one.


amen.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

Wow there are a lot of oxymorons in some of these posts. "2000 shooters is way too much", but dang " we can't get shooters to regional events", so they shut them down. I used to fish professionally and ASA reminds me a lot of the infant days of the bass tournament trail. We heard the same comments "who wants to watcH guys catch fish on t.v." Well 10 years later bass tournaments are getting ESPN exposure and corporate sponsors are on board. We had the same old school, short-sighted cronies that liked the sport just the way it was and were totally against its exponential growth. Tournament organizations got real smart and started moving venues close to major cities that could handle the influx of competitors and fans.....and boom it is now somewhat mainstream with multiple Pro's making a good living. Archery is hot, period! It's in practically every action movie lately, and the amount of kids in this sport is crazy. Organizations like FITA and USA archery get it and are mobilizing to attract those very new comers to their sport. No one will have to worry about 3D growing past 2000 attendees in the near future as this generation of shooters retires or leaves the sport there won't be very many to backfill as those kids are punching paper.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Tallcatt said:


> The ASA Federation (state level events) has set a new record this year with 206 state qualifiers and state championships scheduled.
> 
> Here in Texas we have 25 state qualifiers (which includes 4 multi state qualifiers) plus the state championship on the 2015 schedule. We will have approximately 3000 total competitors for 2015. ASA gets $5.00 for every adult competitor so there is already an income stream generated from state level events.
> 
> ...


That's a large list I grant you that...of your 3000 shooters how many are repeats? How closely are these clubs monitored do they follow the rules? I know one shoot on the list that used all Reinhart targets for the ASA qualifier a few weeks ago? Just becuase some of these states hold shoots doesn't mean it is organized correctly and regulated.

I would say Texas is the exception of the rule. When I say grow I mean having a ASA employee monitor these events closely and have each state hold a certain number of qualifiers that are bid on and are very well advertised. Each state could have say a set number of qualifiers that are associated with the State Championship and ASA Pro Ams. Everyone on this thread knows there are many improvements that can be made and that a foundation has been laid it just needs a 10 year plan and direction. Archery is hot and this is a great time to improve what we have for the future. ASA needs to hire a Marketing firm for advise for the future.


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## toypar (Feb 7, 2008)

Tallcat if you all have 3000 total competitors why don't you have 3000 at the Texas pro am


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

Seems to be some hostility toward bowjunky after this weekend, anybody have any info on the future of bowjunky.......?


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

toypar said:


> Tallcat if you all have 3000 total competitors why don't you have 3000 at the Texas pro am


Actually a very small number of shooters that shoot in ASA local events actually attend Pro/Ams. Also you can live in Texas and still be 700 to 800 miles from the Paris Pro/Am event. We had about 900 total shooters qualified for our state championship last year. This represents all shooters that qualified. The 3000 number was achieved by repeat shooters at multiple events. We had over 300 shooters from Texas at the Paris Pro/Am this year. We had 317 at our state championship last year. The shooters that are interested in shooting in larger events seem to coincide.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

cenochs said:


> That's a large list I grant you that...of your 3000 shooters how many are repeats? How closely are these clubs monitored do they follow the rules? I know one shoot on the list that used all Reinhart targets for the ASA qualifier a few weeks ago? Just becuase some of these states hold shoots doesn't mean it is organized correctly and regulated.
> 
> I would say Texas is the exception of the rule. When I say grow I mean having a ASA employee monitor these events closely and have each state hold a certain number of qualifiers that are bid on and are very well advertised. Each state could have say a set number of qualifiers that are associated with the State Championship and ASA Pro Ams. Everyone on this thread knows there are many improvements that can be made and that a foundation has been laid it just needs a 10 year plan and direction. Archery is hot and this is a great time to improve what we have for the future. ASA needs to hire a Marketing firm for advise for the future.


Yes. We have a good number of repeat shooters. Our shooter of the year program encourages shooters to come back rather than just qualifying and waiting until state. We had approximately 900 shooters qualify for state last year. We had 317 shooters compete at the state championship. 

We have one club on our schedule that has mostly Rineharts, but by ASA Federation rules that is completely legal. You may use any brand of target for state qualifiers. You must use McKenzies for the state championship. The other 24 clubs on our schedule use all McKenzies. 

My wife and I (ASA Texas State Directors) or one of our area reps attend every shoot. For the last nine years my wife and I attended both days of every event camping onsite at most of them. After traveling thousands of miles across Texas doing this we have cut back to attending one day in 2015. We have run this program from day one with a very hands on approach.

We advertise all qualifiers on our Texas ASA Federation Facebook page and on TexasBowhunter.com. Our schedule is posted on our Texas ASA Federation website. We do our very best to get scores posted on our web page by Sunday night of each event. We also put out special alerts concerning weather or special instructions on the Texas ASA Facebook page and on Twitter. Here is a link to our Texas ASA Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/64674653085/

Here is an example of one of our ads on Texasbowhunter.com of our recently completed Western Region Shoot-Out. We had terrible weather (heavy downpours and flooding) but still had 192 shooters which is not bad for a local event. We were expecting 250+ but the weather hurt our attendance.

http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529059

We have built our program on these 3 values.

Enthusiasm – If the State Directors and State Reps are enthusiastic the clubs and shooters will be enthusiastic. Go to club shoots, go to club meetings, promote your events on the internet.

Consistency – Run all shoots the with the same format. Start shoots at the same time (unless weather…heat or cold is a factor). Encourage clubs to set fair challenging courses. Shooters like consistency. If they drive 4 hours to get to the event they like to know they are going to get a quality 3D experience.

Discipline – People like discipline. Shooters like to know the rules are being enforced. Require the white, red and blue stakes to shoot thru the chronograph before they go out on the range. Allow shooters to adjust their speed if their bows are too fast. DQ any shooters (white, red, blue cards) that do not shoot thru the chrono. Enforce all other ASA rules as well. Make sure the shooters know how to fill out their scorecards correctly. Make sure you have a set of current rules onsite. I have found that very few shooters actually know the rules. Have a 5 member competition committee in place at each shoot to handle any rules issue or protest. 

It has been a tremendous amount of work to get our program to where it is today. It has taken blood, sweat....a lot of sweat, and even a few tears, but it has been worth it. The shooters here in Texas look to us for leadership, guidance and support. We have some great shooters that have come up thru the Texas ASA Federation including Tommy Gomez, Mike Braden, Justin Bethel, Jake Kreck, Jame Jameson, Sherry Hott to name a few. We also have many more up and coming great young shooters. 

My wife and I are also the Texas state coordinators for S3DA (Scholastic 3D Archery). We just completed our first instructor training course a couple of weeks ago. The S3DA program is really starting to take off here in Texas. This program will introduce many new young shooters to 3D archery.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

ncsurveyor said:


> Seems to be some hostility toward bowjunky after this weekend, anybody have any info on the future of bowjunky.......?


I'm sure it'll be fine. However I bet the metrics for his facebook page this weekend was leaps and bounds below his normal ASA coverage....normal coverage being the PROS.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Tallcatt said:


> Yes. We have a good number of repeat shooters. Our shooter of the year program encourages shooters to come back rather than just qualifying and waiting until state. We had approximately 900 shooters qualify for state last year. We had 317 shooters compete at the state championship.
> 
> We have one club on our schedule that has mostly Rineharts, but by ASA Federation rules that is completely legal. You may use any brand of target for state qualifiers. You must use McKenzies for the state championship. The other 24 clubs on our schedule use all McKenzies.
> 
> ...


You tell em Mike! You and Tracy run a first rate program. Always a good time


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tallcatt said:


> As Mike, Lorraine, Jenny and their part time range staff "recover" from the highest attended ASA Pro/Am ever "more growth" is the last thing they want to think about.


Mike Posted; Quite a weekend.
"Total scores posted for the Pro/Am was 1,882 which is a record for us. We also hosted 225 scholastic youth on Sunday for a total of 2,108 hosted for the weekend. We also had 660 shooters in the Team Shoot on Friday which is also a record. Thank all of you for joining us and for your patience as we learn to adjust for the new numbers.
[email protected] "


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

IRISH_11 said:


> So what I gathered from the meeting is that nothing is changing in the ASA. If you want to be a Pro then buy a range and learn to judge. IMO making Pro 3D known is like making NFAA and FITA unknown. It just doesn't make sense. The Open Pro class will always be small and it should be. There were 60 shooters in the Open Pro class in London, KY. out of that 60 I'm guessing maybe a dozen or so had a snowball's chance in hell of getting a podium. The rest are just contributors. That being said these contributors still get all their entry fees as well as all their equipment paid for so at the end of the day it's hard to sympathize with them when I'm shelling out greenbacks for all my equipment and entry fees.


You're delusional if you think all of the "contributors" are getting their entry fees paid


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

wolf44 said:


> You're delusional if you think all of the "contributors" are getting their entry fees paid


If they are not getting money they are getting enough free product to sell and cover their expenses. You're the one who is delusional.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Ok


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

From a mid pack open pro who has a factory contract. Not to mention quite a few companies have a "no sell" clause in their contract for anywhere from 12-48 months

"Tell you right now who ever started that rumor is not right. About 90 precent pay their own entry and are on shop staff. You have to win for them to look at you. Only thing is if you do win they pay anybody in open pro with contract or not. "


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

wolf44 said:


> From a mid pack open pro who has a factory contract. Not to mention quite a few companies have a "no sell" clause in their contract for anywhere from 12-48 months
> 
> "Tell you right now who ever started that rumor is not right. About 90 precent pay their own entry and are on shop staff. You have to win for them to look at you. Only thing is if you do win they pay anybody in open pro with contract or not. "


Do you have a day job as well? My perspective of the open pro class right or wrong is that there are only about a dozen or so that have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. A so called "part-time pro" will get beat 99.9% of the time by the ones that do it everyday full-time. Everything in life is relative. You get what you give plain and simple. For someone to think they can win in open pro with 1/2 the effort is like thinking you could win a NASCAR race with a 4 cylinder. Unless of course you have deep pockets and don't mind donating to the cause every tournament.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> For someone to think they can win in open pro with 1/2 the effort is like thinking you could win a NASCAR race with a 4 cylinder.


Poor comparison. Running a NASCAR race with a 4 cyl means you have inferior equipment. Every person that shows up to an ASA shoot has the opportunity to acquire equipment that is also available to these dozen or so pros that have the best chance to win. A shooter who is able to practice full-time can have an advantage, but to go into a tournament with that kind of mindset means you are simply self defeating yourself. If you don't have as much time to practice than some others, then you need to focus more on making the time you DO have and make it quality practice. Not all pros who win consistently do it full-time without obligations to another job to earn a living. They simply have made a commitment to put whatever time is available into practice and preparing to compete. It's a conscience decision every person has to make. Either you choose to devote to what it takes to win, or you don't.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> Do you have a day job as well? My perspective of the open pro class right or wrong is that there are only about a dozen or so that have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. A so called "part-time pro" will get beat 99.9% of the time by the ones that do it everyday full-time. Everything in life is relative. You get what you give plain and simple. For someone to think they can win in open pro with 1/2 the effort is like thinking you could win a NASCAR race with a 4 cylinder. Unless of course you have deep pockets and don't mind donating to the cause every tournament.


Anyone can be beaten on any given day.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> Poor comparison. Running a NASCAR race with a 4 cyl means you have inferior equipment. Every person that shows up to an ASA shoot has the opportunity to acquire equipment that is also available to these dozen or so pros that have the best chance to win. A shooter who is able to practice full-time can have an advantage, but to go into a tournament with that kind of mindset means you are simply self defeating yourself. If you don't have as much time to practice than some others, then you need to focus more on making the time you DO have and make it quality practice. Not all pros who win consistently do it full-time without obligations to another job to earn a living. They simply have made a commitment to put whatever time is available into practice and preparing to compete. It's a conscience decision every person has to make. Either you choose to devote to what it takes to win, or you don't.


Statistically the open pros making the ASA shoot-offs over the last 5 years have been predominantly full-time pros.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

pointndog said:


> Anyone can be beaten on any given day.


Guess that's why Levi is 8 time SOY.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Statistically the open pros making the ASA shoot-offs over the last 5 years have been predominantly full-time pros.


Well you can either use that as an excuse for not being able to beat them, or use it as motivation to commit yourself to beating them with less time available to practice. 

And yes...even Levi can be beaten on any given day. If he is an 8 time SOY, that's because of the accumulation of an entire years events. Not based on one single day. Levi just lost the shootout in Kentucky, and lost the shootout in Vegas when it was between him and Wifler.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

BillyRay said:


> Poor comparison. Running a NASCAR race with a 4 cyl means you have inferior equipment. Every person that shows up to an ASA shoot has the opportunity to acquire equipment that is also available to these dozen or so pros that have the best chance to win. A shooter who is able to practice full-time can have an advantage, but to go into a tournament with that kind of mindset means you are simply self defeating yourself. If you don't have as much time to practice than some others, then you need to focus more on making the time you DO have and make it quality practice. Not all pros who win consistently do it full-time without obligations to another job to earn a living. They simply have made a commitment to put whatever time is available into practice and preparing to compete. It's a conscience decision every person has to make. Either you choose to devote to what it takes to win, or you don't.


For the last 4 to 5 years, most of the tournaments have been won by either Levi, Gillingham, Gomez or McCarthy all of which are full time Pro's with no other work obligations. Maybe Chance also won one in there and he also shoots for a living. Bottom line is at least 90% (this is a guess) of winners are full time sponsored Pro's. There is just very little chance that a Part-time Pro will consistently compete for a win month after month. That guy is getting up going to work 8-10 hours and then shoots a couple hundred arrows in the evening if he doesn't have to go to Juniors baseball game. The full time Pro's get up shoot about 500 arrows, do a couple sponsor required things, shoot another 500 arrows, and shoot another 500 arrows; its their job. Its just darned hard to compete with that! I used to fish the FLW Tour and I can tell you, the guys who really fish for a living are tough to beat. Juggling a full time job and trying to compete with the Pro's is tough. I know a few archers that I feel are every bit good enough to shoot professionally but just don't have the time to commit to competing due to financial and family responsibilities. They are also smart enough to not waste there money by entering as a Pro knowing the odds of winning are far against them.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> Guess that's why Levi is 8 time SOY.


What does that have to do with my statement. He has never been beaten in a tournament?

I am jealous of Levi, he has everything you could want. But he gets beat, just like I said in my statement "Anyone can be beaten at any given time".

Also there are others that get to the shootdown. A few that come to mind are Jacob Marlow, Darrin Christenberry, Eric Griggs, Brando Reyes, Justin Bethel, Chris Hacker, Nathan Brooks.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

shamlin said:


> For the last 4 to 5 years, most of the tournaments have been won by either Levi, Gillingham, Gomez or McCarthy all of which are full time Pro's with no other work obligations. Maybe Chance also won one in there and he also shoots for a living. Bottom line is at least 90% (this is a guess) of winners are full time sponsored Pro's. There is just very little chance that a Part-time Pro will consistently compete for a win month after month. That guy is getting up going to work 8-10 hours and then shoots a couple hundred arrows in the evening if he doesn't have to go to Juniors baseball game. The full time Pro's get up shoot about 500 arrows, do a couple sponsor required things, shoot another 500 arrows, and shoot another 500 arrows; its their job. Its just darned hard to compete with that! I used to fish the FLW Tour and I can tell you, the guys who really fish for a living are tough to beat. Juggling a full time job and trying to compete with the Pro's is tough. I know a few archers that I feel are every bit good enough to shoot professionally but just don't have the time to commit to competing due to financial and family responsibilities. They are also smart enough to not waste there money by entering as a Pro knowing the odds of winning are far against them.


And I have no problem with that. Some on here seem to have an issue with there being guys who shoot full-time. That's why there is a pro class for those guys. Everyone else can get into a class that is more fitting for their level of shooting. Known classes are great right now for people who can't commit the amount of time needed to be as sharp as some other shooters are judging yardage, but that will change if they get turned into classes with big money to win. The best shooters will flock to the money when able to. And a new crop of guys will rise to the top of a pro known class just like they have in the Open Pro class.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

IRISH_11 said:


> Guess that's why Levi is 8 time SOY.


And why you get two dropped scores.


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## Luckie (Aug 7, 2005)

shamlin said:


> For the last 4 to 5 years, most of the tournaments have been won by either Levi, Gillingham, Gomez or McCarthy all of which are full time Pro's with no other work obligations. Maybe Chance also won one in there and he also shoots for a living. Bottom line is at least 90% (this is a guess) of winners are full time sponsored Pro's. There is just very little chance that a Part-time Pro will consistently compete for a win month after month. That guy is getting up going to work 8-10 hours and then shoots a couple hundred arrows in the evening if he doesn't have to go to Juniors baseball game. The full time Pro's get up shoot about 500 arrows, do a couple sponsor required things, shoot another 500 arrows, and shoot another 500 arrows; its their job. Its just darned hard to compete with that! I used to fish the FLW Tour and I can tell you, the guys who really fish for a living are tough to beat. Juggling a full time job and trying to compete with the Pro's is tough. I know a few archers that I feel are every bit good enough to shoot professionally but just don't have the time to commit to competing due to financial and family responsibilities. They are also smart enough to not waste there money by entering as a Pro knowing the odds of winning are far against them.


I know for a fact that not all of those guys just shoot for a living, one of them has been working with me for the past five years. And yes he gets up dam near every morning and goes out and practices judging before he comes in and put in a full day.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

I might be a little slow but how did we go from you saying all open pros get their equip and entry fees paid or getting enough free product to pay for it all, me getting confirmation from an open pro that it's not the case(even though I already knew this), to now you're comparing full time pros to "part-time pros"? He((, I'm not even sure at this point how this whole thread started. 

Obviously the "full time" guys have the luxury of just working on their game and will definitely have a leg up on "the contributors". Being "full-time" doesn't change the amount of work or effort you put in. Reo Wilde worked nights at ups WHILE being the #1 archer in the world for quite a while. Steve Anderson holds down a full time job at Easton while making the world team. You're right though. Effort put in is relative. The effort I put in today is relative to the effort I put in yesterday. 

To answer your question I am racing nascar with a 4 cylinder. I have a full time job, a part time job, and work my tail off to shoot as much as possible to try to be competitive. Do I get to work on everything I want to work on....nope. Are all my bills paid...yup. Do I pay for all my travel and entry fees...yup. I will continue to work my tail off and get better every day. 

Not sure you noticed but chance didn't win k50 this last weekend




IRISH_11 said:


> Do you have a day job as well? My perspective of the open pro class right or wrong is that there are only about a dozen or so that have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. A so called "part-time pro" will get beat 99.9% of the time by the ones that do it everyday full-time. Everything in life is relative. You get what you give plain and simple. For someone to think they can win in open pro with 1/2 the effort is like thinking you could win a NASCAR race with a 4 cylinder. Unless of course you have deep pockets and don't mind donating to the cause every tournament.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

wolf44 said:


> I might be a little slow but how did we go from you saying all open pros get their equip and entry fees paid or getting enough free product to pay for it all, me getting confirmation from an open pro that it's not the case(even though I already knew this), to now you're comparing full time pros to "part-time pros"? He((, I'm not even sure at this point how this whole thread started.
> 
> Obviously the "full time" guys have the luxury of just working on their game and will definitely have a leg up on "the contributors". Being "full-time" doesn't change the amount of work or effort you put in. Reo Wilde worked nights at ups WHILE being the #1 archer in the world for quite a while. Steve Anderson holds down a full time job at Easton while making the world team. You're right though. Effort put in is relative. The effort I put in today is relative to the effort I put in yesterday.
> 
> ...


Congrats, hard work pays off.

Yes Chance did not shoot K50 as was reported by me so I'm eating crow. He said Elite was putting in money next year. However since the meeting I don't know what will occur. Time will tell.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

BillyRay said:


> And I have no problem with that. Some on here seem to have an issue with there being guys who shoot full-time. That's why there is a pro class for those guys. Everyone else can get into a class that is more fitting for their level of shooting. Known classes are great right now for people who can't commit the amount of time needed to be as sharp as some other shooters are judging yardage, but that will change if they get turned into classes with big money to win. The best shooters will flock to the money when able to. And a new crop of guys will rise to the top of a pro known class just like they have in the Open Pro class.


Let's take the last years soy in k50 and open pro. Sam and Levi. 
Do you feel Sams level of shooting is near the same level of shooting as Levi? I'm not talking about the judging part, just the actual shooting part?


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

wolf44 said:


> Let's take the last years soy in k50 and open pro. Sam and Levi.
> Do you feel Sams level of shooting is near the same level of shooting as Levi? I'm not talking about the judging part, just the actual shooting part?


There is no right answer to you question. But here goes. No not even close.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Sam who shot the same score as Levi at indoor nationals, Sam who beat Levi at redding, Sam who took Jesse broad water to I believe 3-4 one arrow shoot offs at Lancaster this year, Sam that shot one point less than Levi at Vegas this year? That Sam? I'd I'd say he's pretty dang close to shooting on the same level as Levi.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Hey, you're the one who asked. There are lots of good shooters. All of them just don't have the same resume as Levi. Spots will always be a challenge for Levi as long as he pursues his super slam. That time of year he is booked solid with chasing animals.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

If you have an unknown start winning consistently in the pro class, he too will be a full-time pro in short order. lain:


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

wolf44 said:


> Let's take the last years soy in k50 and open pro. Sam and Levi.
> Do you feel Sams level of shooting is near the same level of shooting as Levi? I'm not talking about the judging part, just the actual shooting part?


Levi no doubt edges Sam Wolthuis on pure shooting ability. But I think they are much close than you would think. But I see where IRISH_11 has already responded that Levi is the better shooter and that it's "not even close." Which I think anyone who actually looks at some scores on dots would see if completely false.

Look at Sams scores from Vegas the last 3 years. In parenthesis is what Levi shot in comparison.

2013 - 899 71x (900 - 89x)
2014 - 899 83x (900 - 81x)
2015 - 899 81x (900 - 79x)

That's pretty tight shooting. 2013 Sams was a bit behind on baby X's. But 2014 and 2015 Sams came out on top with baby X's, but had one arrow out of 90 miss the large 10. So to say Levi is the better pure shooter and it's "not even close" really doesn't' make any sense. Heck, guys like Reo Wilde, Jesse Broadwater, Braden Gellenthien and other big names leave Vegas after shooting 899s. And nobody would question their shooting ability.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Baby X's only matter when you shoot a 900. When Sam starts laying down 900's like Levi then we can compare.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

That's the point I'm trying to make with asking that question. There are great shooters in k50 that don't like to judge, it doesn't mean they are any less skilled shooters. 

I can't remember but I think Sam and Levi went head to head at Lancaster three years ago. Can't remember the outcome of that one.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Why do people always try to compare the known guys to the unknown? The fact that its never the other way around says everything.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

That's on paper at 20yds, they are not near as skilled of a archer as levi on a 3d course and don't deserve to be called a pro and get paid like him. That just shows you how good levi is, he dominates 3d and can win on paper or at redding.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Confused to why there is a peeing match on Levi. There is no doubt Levi is unreal, but everyone gets beat every once in a while. Why is this so hard to understand.

There are alot of other archers that shoot there behind off. Look at the youngun' David Houser, he is unreal also.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

wolf44 said:


> That's the point I'm trying to make with asking that question. There are great shooters in k50 that don't like to judge, it doesn't mean they are any less skilled shooters.
> 
> I can't remember but I think Sam and Levi went head to head at Lancaster three years ago. Can't remember the outcome of that one.


Yes, they are great shots, but if you take ranging out of the equation, they are not great 3Ders.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

wolf44 said:


> That's the point I'm trying to make with asking that question. There are great shooters in k50 that don't like to judge, it doesn't mean they are any less skilled shooters.
> 
> I can't remember but I think Sam and Levi went head to head at Lancaster three years ago. Can't remember the outcome of that one.


I think we both may be arguing the same point. I agree with you. But some have made comments that they believe unknown is a class that is a great place for people who can't compete with the pros. Which I agree with to a point. But some comments point towards the feeling as if if it's a step down in competition or that you can come ill prepared and expect to compete. And I think that's completely false presently, and it will get even more competitive in future years if more money flows into the class.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Baby X's only matter when you shoot a 900. When Sam starts laying down 900's like Levi then we can compare.


Do you really not realize the extremely fine line between shooting an 899 or 900 over the course of 90 arrows in 3 days? It's the fact that contradicts your comment of "not even close" when you said Levi is the better shooter. Not only that, but also the other tournament results that wolf44 mentioned that I wasn't aware of. Sounds as if Sams may be deserving of a bit more respect than you are giving him here.


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## bsp5019 (Oct 1, 2007)

IRISH_11 said:


> Why do people always try to compare the known guys to the unknown? The fact that its never the other way around says everything.


People compare the known guys to the unknown guys because their are LEGIT pro archers shooting known, its just they are not considered pro by ASA rules.

How about Chris perkins? He's won a k50 or two before? How does his ability compare to Levi?


The reason why people compare is because there are definitely several guys in the K50 class that can compete with Levi. There are definitely several guys in the K50 class that are "Pro", have "pro" contracts, and shoot against other "pro's" (Levi, Dan, Tim, Tommy) through out the rest of the year (indoors).

Levi is not the end all be all. I wouldn't even say that Levi is the best archer in the world. Sure, he's definitely been the best 3D shooter over the last 8 years, but there are definitely guys out there that are a smidgen better than Levi....and some of those guy's shoot known. Does it make them any less of an archer. HELL NO!...In fact, it almost makes it harder in my opinion. Its just skill versus skill. Like two top fuel drag cars going head to head, equal equipment.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Yes I do. I all depends on when you miss the ten ring. If you miss the ten ring on day one then all the pressure is off. It takes 900 to advance. There are a whole bunch of 899's every year but only do many 900's. So what you call extremely fine I call insurmountable. Even Sam must see it as a big obstacle since he has shot 899 for 3 years and never a 900. I mean I'm sure he has shot plenty of 900's in practice. But to do it on the big stage is where the problem seems to be.


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## bsp5019 (Oct 1, 2007)

BillyRay said:


> Do you really not realize the extremely fine line between shooting an 899 or 900 over the course of 90 arrows in 3 days? It's the fact that contradicts your comment of "not even close" when you said Levi is the better shooter. Not only that, but also the other tournament results that wolf44 mentioned that I wasn't aware of. Sounds as if Sams may be deserving of a bit more respect than you are giving him here.


Sam definitely deserves WAY more respect and credit than this guy is giving him. Same with Dan (wolf44)...look him up, his results speak volumes to the time and dedication he puts in.....I don't think Irish truly understands how good some of the guys in K50 actually are


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Yes I do. I all depends on when you miss the ten ring. If you miss the ten ring on day one then all the pressure is off. It takes 900 to advance. There are a whole bunch of 899's every year but only do many 900's. So what you call extremely fine I call insurmountable. Even Sam must see it as a big obstacle since he has shot 899 for 3 years and never a 900. I mean I'm sure he has shot plenty of 900's in practice. But to do it on the big stage is where the problem seems to be.


Well for a guy that shot 120x in the 2014 Indoor Nationals, I doubt he is having mental issues with pressure. But even if a shooter scores a 299 on day one, there is also something to be said for not getting rattled and keeping your head in the game and shoot clean the rest of the way, even though you know you have zero chance of making the shoot down. 

Now if Sam was shooting NFAA rounds with mid 50's on X's, or Vegas rounds in the mid 290's, then your "not even close" comment may have some validity.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm from missouri I have met dan at summit archery and sam at fanning outpost before and they are both great shoots, the best in missouri on paper. I'm not trying to take anything away from either one of them on that. But 3d is a great sport that has been around for 30+ years and it is 50% shooting and 50% yardage guessing always has been and always will be. Standing on the line at vegas they are both pro's and have just as good a chance as anybody. But in the woods on a 3d course they are not on the same level as levi or tim or dan.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

bsp5019 said:


> Sam definitely deserves WAY more respect and credit than this guy is giving him. Same with Dan (wolf44)...look him up, his results speak volumes to the time and dedication he puts in.....I don't think Irish truly understands how good some of the guys in K50 actually are


They are great shooters. Not great 3D archers. Judging is part of 3D archery. Always has been and always will be. What all the known guys fail to realize is if Levi, Dan McCarthy, Tommy Gomez and others had 100% of their time to devote to strictly shooting and not judging the known guys would have serious problems. I heard one men's open pro say in London if he couldn't shoot 60 up on a known course he would be embarrassed. And no I'm not going to say who the open pro was who said it.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

573mms said:


> I'm from missouri I have met dan at summit archery and sam at fanning outpost before and they are both great shoots, the best in missouri on paper. I'm not trying to take anything away from either one of them on that. But 3d is a great sport that has been around for 30+ years and it is 50% shooting and 50% yardage guessing always has been and always will be. Standing on the line at vegas they are both pro's and have just as good a chance as anybody. But in the woods on a 3d course they are not on the same level as levi or tim or dan.


Jeff, I'm not sure I agree with your numbers. I think 3d is 50% shooting, 50% yardage judging and 25% course management.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shootist said:


> Jeff, I'm not sure I agree with your numbers. I think 3d is 50% shooting, 50% yardage judging and 25% course management.


It is so obvious. I don't know why more people can't understand this.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Wow, no wonder I loose. I should have been giving it 125% all the time.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> Wow, no wonder I loose. I should have been giving it 125% all the time.


Bingo!


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

BillyRay said:


> And I have no problem with that. Some on here seem to have an issue with there being guys who shoot full-time. That's why there is a pro class for those guys. Everyone else can get into a class that is more fitting for their level of shooting. Known classes are great right now for people who can't commit the amount of time needed to be as sharp as some other shooters are judging yardage, but that will change if they get turned into classes with big money to win. The best shooters will flock to the money when able to. And a new crop of guys will rise to the top of a pro known class just like they have in the Open Pro class.


I couldn't agree more. Great debate on this post!


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> They are great shooters. Not great 3D archers. Judging is part of 3D archery. Always has been and always will be. What all the known guys fail to realize is if Levi, Dan McCarthy, Tommy Gomez and others had 100% of their time to devote to strictly shooting and not judging the known guys would have serious problems. I heard one men's open pro say in London if he couldn't shoot 60 up on a known course he would be embarrassed. And no I'm not going to say who the open pro was who said it.


I doubt their pure shooting skill would go much further than they are right now. Even when those guys shoot NFAA indoor nationals, Vegas or Lancaster type dot shoots, many of the top 3D shooters hang right with the worlds top dot shooters like Broadwater, Schloesser, and Wilde. So it's not like they are losing shooting ability by having to work on yardage judging. The top guys in the unknown would simply loose that advantage of superior yardage judging skills and the field overall would even out. 
I would like to know who made the bold comment of being embarrassed if they didn't shoot 60 up on a known course. I've seen where some shoots those guys shoot 40+ up. That's pretty solid considering I'm sure there are many times when they are last to shoot in their groups they are losing points due to "glancing" out of the 12 ring since the guys before already have their shots stacked in there.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

BillyRay said:


> I would like to know who made the bold comment of being embarrassed if they didn't shoot 60 up on a known course. I've seen where some shoots those guys shoot 40+ up. That's pretty solid considering I'm sure there are many times when they are last to shoot in their groups they are losing points due to "glancing" out of the 12 ring since the guys before already have their shots stacked in there.


I don't know if he's talking about Levi or not because Levi didn't say he would be embarrassed but I did see on Facebook he said 60 up and higher would win k50 if the top open pros went over. He said if you couldn't shoot 60 up on k50 then you wouldn't have a chance. 

I would bet Levi is very close to being correct with that statement.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Huntin Hard said:


> I don't know if he's talking about Levi or not because Levi didn't say he would be embarrassed but I did see on Facebook he said 60 up and higher would win k50 if the top open pros went over. He said if you couldn't shoot 60 up on k50 then you wouldn't have a chance.
> 
> I would bet Levi is very close to being correct with that statement.


Not saying it isn't possible, but 60 up is pretty damn strong.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Gillingham is a vocal advocate of known distance 3d. I think most pros have said that they'd shoot wherever the money is.


Bingo...They will shoot where the money is, and/or where their chances of "finishing in the money" are higher.
I know full well that the Open Pros that are always in the top 5 or 6 would kick some butt big time in K50. They KNOW the targets, they know how to make an aiming spot when one isn't there. Is it mental imagery? Is it because they know those targets so well that a "spot to aim at magically appears", or What?
Until the "others" that might migrate from spottie to K50 or Known Pro, or whatever learned the targets stone cold, Levi and those guys would dominate a known pro class, hands down. 
Now, that being said, even to I haven't shot ASA in years, PLEASE, again, PLEASE do NOT put an orange or any other colored AIMING DOT on any IBO or ASA 3-D round!! NO AIMING DOTS...leave those animals well enough alone!
I also do NOT want to see the abandonment of the "unknown" classes in 3-D; that would, IMHO be wrong. However, ASA has things going well in that known does NOT compete directly against unknown, so what is the beef there?
ASA is making it so that anyone that wants to shoot ASA can shoot ASA...and do so without having to learn to "judge" from the get go...but can, if they so choose eventually move to "unknown" through a sequence. Used to be it was learn to judge or lose...lots of arrows...and lotsa money buying more arrows AND paying registration and travel fees. The school of hard knocks...and at today's prices that doesn't work anymore, ha.

field14 (Tom D.)
field14(Tom D.)


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

One of field archery's biggest errors was losing control of the number of classes and divisions that grew out of control - just so everyone could win a medal. That continues to haunt the organization today. The current known class expansion discussion sounds like the beginning of the end of real 3D if we let it continue. Creation of a known pro class will totally damage both the Open Pro class and the known 50 classes and will ultimately end with a small "known pro" class that will lose competitors as shooters drop out in search of another class since they can't win in known class either. Creating classes so more can win medals is always a losing cause.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

IRISH_11 said:


> They are great shooters. Not great 3D archers. Judging is part of 3D archery. Always has been and always will be..


What class did you shoot in at London ?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

shootist said:


> Jeff, I'm not sure I agree with your numbers. I think 3d is 50% shooting, 50% yardage judging and 25% course management.


Now that's my kinda math!


----------



## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

'


shamlin said:


> I couldn't agree more. Great debate on this post!





rsw said:


> One of field archery's biggest errors was losing control of the number of classes and divisions that grew out of control - just so everyone could win a medal. That continues to haunt the organization today. The current known class expansion discussion sounds like the beginning of the end of real 3D if we let it continue. Creation of a known pro class will totally damage both the Open Pro class and the known 50 classes and will ultimately end with a small "known pro" class that will lose competitors as shooters drop out in search of another class since they can't win in known class either. Creating classes so more can win medals is always a losing cause.


Agreed. I could never figure out Open C and K45. There are way too many classes in all organizations. Combining these classes and having flight times for shooting will lower the number of courses that need to be set and help streamline the shooting. Trying to cater to every type of bow set and shooter is crazy!


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

shamlin said:


> For the last 4 to 5 years, most of the tournaments have been won by either Levi, Gillingham, Gomez or McCarthy all of which are full time Pro's with no other work obligations. Maybe Chance also won one in there and he also shoots for a living. Bottom line is at least 90% (this is a guess) of winners are full time sponsored Pro's. There is just very little chance that a Part-time Pro will consistently compete for a win month after month. That guy is getting up going to work 8-10 hours and then shoots a couple hundred arrows in the evening if he doesn't have to go to Juniors baseball game. The full time Pro's get up shoot about 500 arrows, do a couple sponsor required things, shoot another 500 arrows, and shoot another 500 arrows; its their job. Its just darned hard to compete with that! I used to fish the FLW Tour and I can tell you, the guys who really fish for a living are tough to beat. Juggling a full time job and trying to compete with the Pro's is tough. I know a few archers that I feel are every bit good enough to shoot professionally but just don't have the time to commit to competing due to financial and family responsibilities. They are also smart enough to not waste there money by entering as a Pro knowing the odds of winning are far against them.


Don't forget that these same folks spend $4000 on 3D targets to specifically learn to judge them at distances and learn where to aim at all distances. Simply practicing judging on trees and local tournaments just isn't going to cut it anymore.

Having said that, I truly believe these guys are just gifted. As much as we are led to believe when younger, I doubt that even with unlimited money, time, and resources, that the "average" archery shooter could achieve the GOD given talent of the top 5.

I will never be President, or beat Danny McCarthy, no matter how much time and money I throw at archery, regardless if I know the yardage or not!


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

rattlinman said:


> Don't forget that these same folks spend $4000 on 3D targets to specifically learn to judge them at distances and learn where to aim at all distances. Simply practicing judging on trees and local tournaments just isn't going to cut it anymore.
> 
> Having said that, I truly believe these guys are just gifted. As much as we are led to believe when younger, I doubt that even with unlimited money, time, and resources, that the "average" archery shooter could achieve the GOD given talent of the top 5.
> 
> I will never be President, or beat Danny McCarthy, no matter how much time and money I throw at archery, regardless if I know the yardage or not!


I think alot of people underestimate this ideal as a whole. I remember an interview with Jesse Broadwater after he set the Redding course record. He practiced 3 time/week. THREE. Some people just have it. Others have to work for it.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

shootist said:


> Jeff, I'm not sure I agree with your numbers. I think 3d is 50% shooting, 50% yardage judging and 25% course management.


course management WTH. is that?
I try for the highest score every shot. but I manage to get the lower score sometimes is that what you mean? LOL


----------



## BARBWIRE (Feb 12, 2015)

Wow I just read a STRONG email about all this!


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

BARBWIRE said:


> Wow I just read a STRONG email about all this!


Well Spit it out, dont leave us wondering.....


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

BARBWIRE said:


> Wow I just read a STRONG email about all this!


Do tell.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bsharkey said:


> course management WTH. is that?
> I try for the highest score every shot. but I manage to get the lower score sometimes is that what you mean? LOL


And that's where you're wrong. Why go for a doubtful 12 and get a 8 or 5 when you could have shot the surer 10? Course management covers a lot. What's your surest distance for arrow placement? If 30 or 35 yards you sure don't go a 12 at 40 or 45 yards. What's the best target for you scoring a 12? Are you the lead off shooter in your group? And there is more.....


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Ok Guys, who has the 411 on bow junky. Quite a few things have surfaced lately.... What ya know?


----------



## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

BARBWIRE said:


> Wow I just read a STRONG email about all this!


Yeah now you gotta share with the whole class


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Levi just made a strong statement on his facebook page. lain:


----------



## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

sagecreek said:


> Levi just made a strong statement on his facebook page. lain:


Yeah just saw that...and it was awesome


----------



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

stromdidilly said:


> Yeah just saw that...and it was awesome


Ya I just read it and I appreciate people who aren't afraid to speak their minds!!

I would like to know where this secret place is all the K50 guys are doing the chatting that he alluded to?


----------



## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

What is going on? My facebook has had so many reference to the known distances this past week and I dont even shoot 3D 

I have been saying that someone has an agenda but no idea who or why?


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

stromdidilly said:


> Yeah just saw that...and it was awesome


He must have taken it down. What did he say?


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Let's just say:
- Some folks let their alligator mouths get their hummingbird butts in trouble!
- When you blow smoke up folks butt it's just a matter of time before it blows up in your face! So end up in a stinking mess..............
- Just because you are an expert liar does not in any way make you a good hire.
- The archery business is a really small, small world! In fact if you lean forward just a bit you can see all the way around it. Which means if you lean too far forward you'll end up bumping into where you stand.


I feel confident in saying that it seems Mr. BJ has fallen through his own arse and hung himself.


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Dang. I hope this actually happens. That'll shut em up real quick.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Corley is probably happy that this is all going on with k50 that it's not about him losing Hoyt lol


----------



## attackone (Jul 10, 2006)

GVDocHoliday said:


> He must have taken it down. What did he say?


Ok. ..I could go on and on and on about the known yardage verses unknown yardage and what's better and what's harder ....so to save everyone's time... at this moment I won't go into what I really think... instead I have a proposal. ...(I'm writing this publicly because I guess the k50 started a secret page that the "pros" can't see where they are sharing our statuses and talking about why I didn't win such and such tournament so while they're in the sharing mood i figured this was the fastest way to reach them) ..... OK. .. you guys want to be called pros or at least to be paid more.... so in 2016 why don't you pay pro level entry fees and let's get asa to let all the unknown guys shoot both classes ..I will show up and pay both entry fees and shoot all 40 known on Friday... as well as most of the rest of the pro class... we will have a huge turnout (at the first couple shoots) and you guys will get your chance to shoot with all of us for bigger money... Mark Ritchie looked me right in the eyes and said most of you thought that you could hang with all of us on a known course. .. so that would be the perfect opportunity...I am in no way being disrespectful but instead giving you guys an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is... 
I love archery ... all types... redding. .. known 3d... unknown 3d.... Vegas. ..louisville... you name it.. makes no difference to me...also I really like and am friends with most of the k50 guys. ..I think there are some great shooters in there and I also think it's a great class but I've heard some really funny statements come out of there too. ..


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Huntin Hard said:


> Corley is probably happy that this is all going on with k50 that it's not about him losing Hoyt lol


HAHAHAHA true!


----------



## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

GVDocHoliday said:


> He must have taken it down. What did he say?


Basically put up or shut up. Suggested that known/unknown pay the same pro fee and they can shoot both classes in a tournament. Said he'd gladly shoot unknown on a Friday then turn around and shoot known on Saturday so that the known guys that are talking trash about ability will have a chance to play with the top unknown guys.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Kstigall said:


> I feel confident in saying that it seems Mr. BJ has fallen through his own arse and hung himself.



What are you meaning here ?? I've heard he lost Hoyt and people seem to be re bringing up he fact he got arrested in 2009 but that doesn't affect anything now. 

Seems you know more.....


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Let's just say:
> - Some folks let their alligator mouths get their hummingbird butts in trouble!
> - When you blow smoke up folks butt it's just a matter of time before it blows up in your face! So end up in a stinking mess..............
> - Just because you are an expert liar does not in any way make you a good hire.
> ...


It sure seems like it. Was interesting finding out that he has been in prison and such in the past. I never had heard any of that.


----------



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Where is all the info about BJ coming out at?


----------



## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

pointndog said:


> It sure seems like it. Was interesting finding out that he has been in prison and such in the past. I never had heard any of that.


What the hell are yall talking about regarding Jason?


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Some observations...... 
A. It seems some K50 folks (and their followers) believe that "their game" is comparable to the current Open Pro game and they want the attention, oops, I mean money to follow.
B. It seems some Open Pro's (and their followers) resent the chatter and don't like the idea that money directed towards K50 might come either directly or indirectly from their game.


On a side note: *BowJunky's self created wreck has nothing to do with K50!!*


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

robbyreneeward said:


> What the hell are yall talking about regarding Jason?


I'm 99.9% sure Hoyt dropped him. Also people must've started digging up stuff and saw he got arrested back in 2009 and started sharing it all over Facebook yesterday.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Huntin Hard said:


> What are you meaning here ?? I've heard he lost Hoyt and people seem to be re bringing up he fact he got arrested in 2009 but that doesn't affect anything now.
> 
> Seems you know more.....


I don't believe that's the best description of events.. _*Rumor* _has it that "he screwed the pooch and Hoyt chased him off, aggressively" is more accurate.


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

pointndog said:


> It sure seems like it. Was interesting finding out that he has been in prison and such in the past. I never had heard any of that.


That was in that lovely email.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

On facebook, some one had pulled up an old arrest record or court documents and everyone was talking about it and on one of the pages he said it was old news they were bringing up and that was in the past and prison was the best thing to straighten him out.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

He has got like 9 months in jail for writing an $1100 bad check and blamed it on drug addiction.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

SMshootsmathews said:


> That was in that lovely email.


Lets see the email....


For the record I dont have anything against Jason. I like the watching the shoot downs and use to like the podcast. Just a lot of drama around him anymore.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

BARBWIRE said:


> Wow I just read a STRONG email about all this!


Come on! You gotta share that lol


----------



## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

attackone said:


> Ok. ..I could go on and on and on about the known yardage verses unknown yardage and what's better and what's harder ....so to save everyone's time... at this moment I won't go into what I really think... instead I have a proposal. ...(I'm writing this publicly because I guess the k50 started a secret page that the "pros" can't see where they are sharing our statuses and talking about why I didn't win such and such tournament so while they're in the sharing mood i figured this was the fastest way to reach them) ..... OK. .. you guys want to be called pros or at least to be paid more.... so in 2016 why don't you pay pro level entry fees and let's get asa to let all the unknown guys shoot both classes ..I will show up and pay both entry fees and shoot all 40 known on Friday... as well as most of the rest of the pro class... we will have a huge turnout (at the first couple shoots) and you guys will get your chance to shoot with all of us for bigger money... Mark Ritchie looked me right in the eyes and said most of you thought that you could hang with all of us on a known course. .. so that would be the perfect opportunity...I am in no way being disrespectful but instead giving you guys an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is...
> I love archery ... all types... redding. .. known 3d... unknown 3d.... Vegas. ..louisville... you name it.. makes no difference to me...also I really like and am friends with most of the k50 guys. ..I think there are some great shooters in there and I also think it's a great class but I've heard some really funny statements come out of there too. ..



^^^ is that L. Morgan?


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

^^^^^ yep


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

pointndog said:


> Lets see the email....
> 
> 
> For the record I dont have anything against Jason. I like the watching the shoot downs and use to like the podcast. Just a lot of drama around him anymore.


All I'm saying is that it is a wonder other sponsors haven't pulled out. And surprising Hoyt took so long. Its gonna get bad. Im surprised someone hasnt called him out on it. 

That is all I will say. Period.


----------



## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

well there it is..offer on the table. let them all intermingle and settle it and go on. looks like things are getting interesting. not sure what the email is all about or what happened to bow junky..but it must be getting bad.


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> And that's where you're wrong. Why go for a doubtful 12 and get a 8 or 5 when you could have shot the surer 10? Course management covers a lot. What's your surest distance for arrow placement? If 30 or 35 yards you sure don't go a 12 at 40 or 45 yards. What's the best target for you scoring a 12? Are you the lead off shooter in your group? And there is more.....


because I don't do it for money I do it because I love it. so why cheat myself out of a chance to hit the 12. for me its all in or all out.
and for you to say im wrong.whatever you play your game your way i'll play it mine eagle.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SMshootsmathews said:


> All I'm saying is that it is a wonder other sponsors haven't pulled out. And surprising Hoyt took so long. Its gonna get bad. Im surprised someone hasnt called him out on it.
> 
> That is all I will say. Period.


Are you talking about the email from Corley to some pros?

The one that starts out with a disclaimer about all the spelling and grammar errors?


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> Are you talking about the email from Corley to some pros?
> 
> The one that starts out with a disclaimer about all the spelling and grammar errors?


correct.


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> Are you talking about the email from Corley to some pros?
> 
> The one that starts out with a disclaimer about all the spelling and grammar errors?


I mean i agree with alot of what he said, but if hes gonna name names, just name names.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> Are you talking about the email from Corley to some pros?
> 
> The one that starts out with a disclaimer about all the spelling and grammar errors?


Hmm that's interesting. I'd like to see hear more about that one


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Someone put the email up here or shoot it to me.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

pointndog said:


> Someone put the email up here or shoot it to me.


Same


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SMshootsmathews said:


> I mean i agree with alot of what he said, but if hes gonna name names, just name names.


I think it was pointed at a very few individuals and I honestly read it as a threat to blackmail. 

If it starts going tit-for-tat, watch out. There will be collateral damage.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Holy doodoo. Things gonna get violent I think.


----------



## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

Someone Send me a copy too. Please


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Honestly he did have some good points


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

pointndog said:


> Honestly he did have some good points


Definately. But he might as well called out "the womens pro archers" and "shooter x, y, and z." Hes messing with some awful big men.


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> I think it was pointed at a very few individuals and I honestly read it as a threat to blackmail.
> 
> If it starts going tit-for-tat, watch out. There will be collateral damage.


I did too. Its gonna get real ugly.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

What if all this inspires Fitzy to come back....and explain some things?


----------



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

I would certainly like to read this email if someone could PM it to me. Your name will be forever anonymous


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> What if all this inspires Fitzy to come back....and explain some things?


Exactly, like the reason he quit.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> What if all this inspires Fitzy to come back....and explain some things?


I was wondering the exact same thing - I liked Fitzy..... Ryan had the ins, and understood some of the game.


----------



## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

No surprises here


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post 

And that's where you're wrong. Why go for a doubtful 12 and get a 8 or 5 when you could have shot the surer 10? Course management covers a lot. What's your surest distance for arrow placement? If 30 or 35 yards you sure don't go a 12 at 40 or 45 yards. What's the best target for you scoring a 12? Are you the lead off shooter in your group? And there is more....."""



bsharkey said:


> because I don't do it for money I do it because I love it. so why cheat myself out of a chance to hit the 12. for me its all in or all out.
> and for you to say im wrong.whatever you play your game your way i'll play it mine eagle.


You asked and I stepped up. If you're just out there to "play" maybe you shouldn't have asked. Plain and simple, you place or win with your "best" shots, not your "spray and pray" shots.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I can't believe the email isn't on here yet


----------



## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

How's bout someone firing that email this way? [email protected] or pm


----------



## Trueflight1 (Feb 12, 2013)

I would also like to see this email [email protected]


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected]
Thanks


----------



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

[email protected]

An anonymous email containing this legendary email would be simply awesome :wink:


----------



## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

[email protected]


----------



## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

[email protected]

I'll take a copy if any is sending it out.


----------



## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

Haha, dang! It must be good....


----------



## rayray8302 (May 3, 2013)

Send me the email
[email protected]


----------



## Hoyt slayer (Nov 30, 2011)

What the heck someone pm me this super secret email


----------



## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

Somebody just post the dern thing


----------



## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Sinking ship.


----------



## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Are you talking about the email from Corley to some pros?
> 
> The one that starts out with a disclaimer about all the spelling and grammar errors?


It is a good one.


----------



## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

With all this drama Ive been sucked in and want to see this email.


----------



## patmc81 (Jul 3, 2009)

How damaging is this email? Pm me if you have it


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Read the email....wow, what a biatch.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

He chose to comparatively, keep updates on the peewees playing the halftime scrimmage, that nobody cares about, rather than the actual game, and has the audacity to send this out?


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

For anyone who wants to read this if someone would be kind enough to send it to [email protected] all you have to do is go to mailinator.com and enter the above address. It's legit and safe I promise. Easily Googable


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
> 
> And that's where you're wrong. Why go for a doubtful 12 and get a 8 or 5 when you could have shot the surer 10? Course management covers a lot. What's your surest distance for arrow placement? If 30 or 35 yards you sure don't go a 12 at 40 or 45 yards. What's the best target for you scoring a 12? Are you the lead off shooter in your group? And there is more....."""
> 
> ...


Spray and pray. Ok you got me figured out. As far as I'm concerned you didn't step up but if you feel better about yourself I guess. Your greatness is only surpassed by your ignorance. Peace


----------



## BARBWIRE (Feb 12, 2015)

Bet he wishes he hadn't edited all that stuff out.It would b pretty powerful right about now!


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

GVDocHoliday said:


> He chose to comparatively, keep updates on the peewees playing the halftime scrimmage, that nobody cares about, rather than the actual game, and has the audacity to send this out?


Nope. He had no pro class to cover.


----------



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Either way....we better decide if archery is better off WITH or WITHOUT him.......cuz there will never, ever be another him (BowJunky) again.... :confused2:


----------



## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

Send the email please, I'd like to read it. [email protected]

Thanks


----------



## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

Wow ! So I assume that's why Hoyt is no longer the greatest bow [emoji51]
Is the asa coverage gone also???


----------



## slammin12 (Jan 11, 2014)

me [email protected]

thanks again...


----------



## Tony Bagnall (Sep 8, 2012)

this email must be good ..... would like to see it!!


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

POOREBOY said:


> Wow ! So I assume that's why Hoyt is no longer the greatest bow [emoji51]
> Is the asa coverage gone also???


I saw that too and wondered what he's shooting now. I don't think ASA coverage is gone but I could be wrong though


----------



## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

I think we've seen the last of Asa coverage by bowjunky according to all the talk going around, but we'll soon see....


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

ncsurveyor said:


> I think we've seen the last of Asa coverage by bowjunky according to all the talk going around, but we'll soon see....


Yes we will see here in less than a month.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> I think it was pointed at a very few individuals and I honestly read it as a threat to blackmail.
> 
> If it starts going tit-for-tat, watch out. There will be collateral damage.


I've gotta agree with you Tony about it coming off sorta like blackmail and coming at certain guys. Will make a lot of talk on the chair at the Asa events and all over 3D now.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

So why did Hoyt drop him? And what went on in that meeting?


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Huntin Hard said:


> I've gotta agree with you Tony about it coming off sorta like blackmail and coming at certain guys. Will make a lot of talk on the chair at the Asa events and all over 3D now.


No offense but when I hang with my buddies away from the wife and kids, we all cuss like sailors. It's a cathartic.


----------



## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

I don't know who said what. But seems to have escalated quickly lol.


----------



## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

slowtech63 said:


> At the meeting they made it pretty clear they did not want 275 entry fee


It's clear they don't want to pay pro registrations fees, they don't want to judge yardage, but they want to win pro money and be called pros. It's called entitlement.


----------



## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Well heck if it's going around someone PM the email to me too...


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

BillyRay said:


> Either way....we better decide if archery is better off WITH or WITHOUT him.......cuz there will never, ever be another him (BowJunky) again.... :confused2:


There are already 2 other people/groups waiting in the wings to take over. This I know.

ArcHER could easily expand I think to include men's side of things


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)




----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

tmorelli said:


>


Chopshot taking over ??


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> Chopshot taking over ??


I don't think he really wants to. I was just making a suggestion.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Chops is the bomb...


----------



## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

He easily could though. ArcHER is well on their way to being the best...if not already.


----------



## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

BARBWIRE said:


> Bet he wishes he hadn't edited all that stuff out.It would b pretty powerful right about now!


I bet he has all that stuff on a hard drive.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

pointndog said:


> I bet he has all that stuff on a hard drive.


Yeah, he is saying that he has all the raw footage on that hard drive.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

If he release that, that would be a big low blow! Maybe he's thinking if I'm done, then I'm going with a bang.


----------



## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Huntin Hard said:


> If he release that, that would be a big low blow! Maybe he's thinking if I'm done, then I'm going with a bang.


Well he seems to be a scam artist based on his track record. So i wouldnt doubt it. I bet itd be good for a laugh


----------



## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

Huntin Hard said:


> If he release that, that would be a big low blow! Maybe he's thinking if I'm done, then I'm going with a bang.


What is that he would be releasing? Video or emails? What or who started all the uproar?


----------



## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

POOREBOY said:


> What is that he would be releasing? Video or emails? What or who started all the uproar?


Probably the sht talking and bad mouthing of archers toward other archers. Stuff that goes on in EVERY sport.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

When you are allowed in the inner circle of any organization, discretion is paramount.


----------



## boner (Jan 9, 2008)

Boy, I'm having to make myself not register for k50 in metropolis.


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

The only mystery I'm curious about is: why did he become so vocal about the Known 50 class anyway? I find it difficult to believe that it was purely to grow the sport of archery if ti meant alienating the top players to make it happen.

Maybe a big payout coming? Just seems like an odd cause to champion if it threatens to cut you out of the whole organization. But, he has had a hard time with staying impartial from the beginning........oh well. I'll miss the videos.


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## arrow spitter (Nov 23, 2005)

Ok crap now I want to see the email!
Anybody care to email it to me [email protected]com


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

nhns4 said:


> Well he seems to be a scam artist based on his track record. So i wouldnt doubt it. I bet itd be good for a laugh


Oh I remember when he arrived here on AT.


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## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

There is a market for the coverage 
And I'm sure there is someone that can do it with out making it into a Haroldo show . He seemed to love controversy 
And publicize it . Just like the whole levi
Griggs and Hopkins arrow calling mess!


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

POOREBOY said:


> He seemed to love controversy
> And publicize it . Just like the whole levi
> Griggs and Hopkins arrow calling mess!


It's the whole reality TV show generation though. Everyone loves to watch drama. lol


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## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Maybe he will go back to doing his riveting bow reviews...


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I think it would be hard for the other sponsors to keep him after seeing all of this on social media about him.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I will miss the coverage. I really appreciated it and thought it was going in the right direction.


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## POOREBOY (Aug 26, 2003)

It's a shame the coverage and editing was awesome maybe he will sell out to someone or someone else will start covering . But whoever does it can't be brand loyal and it seems to me the whole industry need to pitch in not just 
A few of them to keep it for being biased . Good opportunity for the sport as a whole to be covered


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> I will miss the coverage. I really appreciated it and thought it was going in the right direction.


Agreed. I looked forward to following the pro updates every ASA. I un-followed blowjunky as soon as he posted he would not be doing pro updates this past weekend. 

I don't watch baseball games to tune in for the dizzy bat race(K50) between innings, I want to watch the professionals play ball(Open Pro).

He over did it. All he needed to do was walk around with a cellphone and upload pics and scores. Boom Easy. 

If that's all someone did, as an unbiased reporter just posting info, they'd do good.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> I will miss the coverage. I really appreciated it and thought it was going in the right direction.


No sarcasm intended.... what coverage?

I've been looking for the last year and thinking, "what is the product exactly?" 

Footage seems scattered at best. The WTPS seems to be gone. The leaderboard has been a constant and I enjoyed following those. The podcasts seem to be all about him and most social media updates not at a tournament, seem to be all about him or some type of ratings grabbing pot stir.

It really looked to me like the product was self-promotion.... his new bows, his new rims, his programmers, his hunts, his winches, his man boob supplements, etc.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I must confess that I don't give a flip about BJ and the Pro class kerfuffle! ....... I finally got to use 'kerfuffle' in a sentence!! 

I'm almost embarrassed to admit I honestly don't care much about the K50 - Open Pro pecker measuring contest! 

However, I do know some, not all, of the K50 guys are over estimating their awesomeness. Guys like Levi, Dan, Tim G. and Chance have beaten at one time or another the best K50 guys at their own game (paper punching). But yet some of the less than best K50 guys think they are the cats meow!(?) How is it that they believe they can take down the big guys in a known distance 3D game but can't touch them at the LAS Classic or Vegas. 

I also believe that the guys in K50 like C. Perkins, Starnes, Cousins, Wolthuis and similar could take on the Open Pro's in a Known distance 3D game and at the least hold their own. There are some young guns (Houser, L. Holmes, Marlow and others) coming along in K50 that will soon if not already be able to run with anybody in a Known distance 3D game.

If all the top archers had a years notice that the top prize for a single 80 target K50 game was $100,000 and a truck who would win? Right now the _experienced _K50 guys do pretty well. But if all the best archers in the world set their sight on winning what would happen? A lot if not all of the current guys in K50 that generally finish well would fall way, way back! 

Right now the best Open Pro 3D guys have a ton of experience with shooting 3D targets and are top shots in any archery game....... They would be exceedingly difficult to beat in a Known distance 3D game _right now_. However, there are archers that have the archery skills that given enough time on 3D ranges would soon be competing with them if not beating them. At the same time, there are some Open Pro guys that would be seriously humbled by some of the K50 guys! There are some Open Pro 3D'ers that might best stay away from going nose-to-nose with the best K50 guys if they can't handle being thumped by a spot shooter!


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## Okie101 (Nov 1, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> No sarcasm intended.... what coverage?
> 
> I've been looking for the last year and thinking, "what is the product exactly?"
> 
> ...


Last paragraph says it all...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Billincamo said:


> It's clear they don't want to pay pro registrations fees, they don't want to judge yardage, but they want to win pro money and be called pros. It's called entitlement.


Well "they" cannot have their cake and eat it too! If those are their demands with regard to the registration fees, then IMHO...tough kah-kah! You all want PRO status and recognition...then either ante up the SAME registration fees as open Pro, or shut your pie hole!
PLUS you abide by the same shooting rules, shoot down, and code of ethics as the Open Pros, too!

None of this pro status with a half-way house!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

Outback Man said:


> Maybe he will go back to doing his riveting bow reviews...


Lmao......


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## mustang kid (Jul 14, 2009)

I want Fitzy to come back. He was the face of Bow Junky and that's when BJ was in it's prime. More videos coming out from the shoots, more videos about the pros. He provided exactly what the FANS wanted: video coverage of the professional archery side. I don't think he was biased towards any. I don't think he cared about the money either. His motive was to provide for those at home who couldn't make it to the big shoots, which I really appreciate. Jason doesn't care at all. His only concern is money.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I must confess that I don't give a flip about BJ and the Pro class kerfuffle! ....... I finally got to use 'kerfuffle' in a sentence!!
> 
> I'm almost embarrassed to admit I honestly don't care much about the K50 - Open Pro pecker measuring contest!
> 
> ...


You got it! "for now" and likely for a year or two. I like the idea that IF the K50 pays the same entry fees as the Open Pro to gain "real" Pro status, then allow them to shoot both K50 and Open Pro if they so choose...but also, when/if they do that, then they pay $275 for Open Pro, AND pay another $275 for K50 Pro. All 40 targets for K50 on Friday and then play the game in open pro on Sat and sunday.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

rodney482 said:


> No surprises here


You got that right.


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## mustang kid (Jul 14, 2009)

One more thing, I would LOVE to see Nock-On take over and start doing film. They have some awesome podcasts with top archers like McCarthy and Hopkins. Dudley knows the sport too and is a well liked person! It would be great to see him start coming to the shoots to try and film for the fans.


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## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

arrow spitter said:


> Ok crap now I want to see the email!
> Anybody care to email it to me [email protected]


Lol X2.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> However, I do know some, not all, of the K50 guys are over estimating their awesomeness. Guys like Levi, Dan, Tim G. and Chance have beaten at one time or another the best K50 guys at their own game (paper punching). But yet some of the less than best K50 guys think they are the cats meow!(?) How is it that they believe they can take down the big guys in a known distance 3D game but can't touch them at the LAS Classic or Vegas.
> 
> I also believe that the guys in K50 like C. Perkins, Starnes, Cousins, Wolthuis and similar could take on the Open Pro's in a Known distance 3D game and at the least hold their own. There are some young guns (Houser, L. Holmes, Marlow and others) coming along in K50 that will soon if not already be able to run with anybody in a Known distance 3D game.
> 
> ...


Pretty much sums it up right here. Well said man!!


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Here's the email someone sent me. 




Disclaimer** There will be many misspelled words and grammar issues in the post. Its 1:43am and I really don???t give a crap so no need to point it out As of today 5-31-2014 BowJunky will NO LONGER pay ANY Pro a single penny of contingency for our company program? 3 years 17 youth soccer games 4 school plays 1 birthday 1 anniversary My son???s first steps and my son???s first words Is what I personally have sacrificed to edit out and protect YOU and the Brands of this industry on this 3T hard drive you see pictured here. *The interviews filmed where you have badmouthed the very bow company that pays for you to show up and shoot. Or the release that you swear caused you to shoot an 8 on a target you don???t even own so you don???t practice. Or maybe it???s the horrible sight and scopes that wont keep from fogging up on a perfectly sunny day. *The interviews of you leaving one sponsor to go to another and trash that previous sponsor on air and I choose NOT to show the unedited version of you and what you REALLY had to say. But yet I take the heat and fall even though YOU sought ME out for the interview. *The teenage cuss fest???s you have between each other while shooting any given Sunday. *The verbal and almost physical brawls you have on the course over an arrow call that leads to a controversial podcast that I NEVER ASKED FOR, that then leads to straight organized coercion to keep the public from knowing the truth. *The protest between each other involving arrow calls that I was begged to ???keep quiet??? so the public didn???t see just how childish you were acting. *Or maybe it???s the countless rules infractions and tournament violations that occur each event that takes me hours to edit out so that archerytalk or social media doesn???t explode and crash due to the amount of protest that would take place. *Maybe it???s the temper tantrums that involve every 4-letter word and throwing of bows because you made a bad shot but we don???t dare let little Johnny see who you REALLY are outside of your sponsor???s booth. And this is all just in ASA !!! No matter the complaining I take from you. I have in video, photography, social media or all three at the same time have promoted all three of your classes in some capacity over the last three years. Whatever it is, pick just ONE and I have sacrificed all of the above to protect this fragile ???professional archery??? image for YOU. And after all of that, YOU want to treat me and my family like this!? You want to protest and boycott me and what I do for YOU because YOU don???t like the fact that I am trying to help grow an AMATEUR Class that you don???t even shoot or compete in ??? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDDING ME ?!?!?!?! Not to play captain obvious here but try this on for size once. If you put as much effort into selling your sponsors product to the amateur or pro shop customer as you do in trying to stop a known class get ANY attention. Then the manufacturers might just not be in the financial crunch they are where they have to pick and choose which classes to support! Why don???t you spend 15 minutes in the vendor area before or after you shoot to talk to the patrons about the products and help sell the products a little better and the pickings wouldn???t be so damn slim and then it wouldn???t matter if a bow company pays an amateur class a single penny or not! I can only speak for Hoyt because we man their booth. But over the last two years only ONE Hoyt Pro has ever hung out at the booth and answered any questions from potential buyers at an ASA event that we have set up at. PSE has no booth or even sponsor a ASA Pro Am so they cant complain and shouldn???t even have an opinion in this matter. *You complain to me ??? BowJunky has done NOTHING to give back to the Pro Class??? So I feel bad and decide to offer and PAY YOU MONEY IF YOU WIN and GIVE BACK to YOU with a cash contingency THAT WE CANT EVEN AFFORD TO PAY. And TWO, count it again???TWO individuals out of ALL of you Pro???s have ever even taken advantage of that GIVING BACK gesture my family and I put out there for you. And if that isn???t enough. I give YOU your first ever ARCHERY ALL STAR GAME that is ONLY for YOU the Open Pro and has NEVER been done before in our sport! ??? You blame ME for the gossip (no official word from Hoyt) that Hoyt has decided to pull contingency from Open Pro Classes in 2016, all because of rumors and speculation, when this would NEVER be an issue IF YOU WOULD WIN A FREAKING ARCHERY TOURNAMENT that actually matters once in a great while! ??? You protest me on ???behalf of our sponsor??? when your hypocritical sponsors just sent me a check 3 weeks ago to give them pictures of YOU and support what I am doing in the grand scheme of things and ask me if they can have the opportunity to advertise with BowJunky in 2016 ?? ??? Some of you stand on your soapbox of Christianity and even have the audacity to hold hands in a circle and pray before you fire and arrow, to then cast stones and judge me for what? For taking my cameras off of you for 5 minutes to promote another growing class in the ASA? Regardless of how you have treated me over the last three years. Myself and my family have shown up at every event with a smile and fresh memory cards to take your pictures and video promoting YOUR sponsors regardless if they support us or not. Turning some of you into household names in this industry and providing YOU free of charge the photos we take so that you can fluff up your archery resume and validate the bows, travel cash or free arrows you get that come with your BowJunky provided photos and media love for catalog season. There are combined over 130 of you at any given tournament. And yet I can count on my two hands the number of times any individuals that have EVER offered to help. Maybe offer water on a hot day in IL to myself or my then pregnant wife who was taking your pictures. Or maybe even to carry a camera bag or leader board on or off a range after serving YOU the Archery Professional. Never in my life, and that includes my time behind prison walls with human predators, have I EVER witnessed such greed, envy and ungratefulness from a group of grown adults who are supposed to be the pinnacle and example of a professional sport. BowJunky showing some attention to a known archery class is NOT going to be the death or end to ???open pro??? archery in the future. YOU will be the death of yourselves! At some point you will have to take a stand and break this good ol boy mentality that has plagued this sport for 25 plus years. There wont be another me ( BowJunky) come along and do what I have done and put up with this as long as I have ever again. So you better decided if this sport is better at the end of the day WITH me or WITHOUT me!


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

Profound


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

Im gonna bet.. Without you





jmann28 said:


> Here's the email someone sent me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

I still find it pathetic that the entry fee for the BEST of the BEST in 3d archery is $275. The lowest level of bass master open tour is 1000$ per boater. I can go any weekend in Vegas and find a 1000$+ poker tourney. If guys want to make any money they need to pony up some money. 

K50 should be 750$ entry and pro should be 1500$. Let guys make enough money to pay travel expenses. There is only enough contingency money to go around.


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## 4by4buck (Feb 6, 2011)

rodney482 said:


> Im gonna bet.. Without you


That's kinda what I was thinking.....haha


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## Trueflight1 (Feb 12, 2013)

Kstigall said:


> I must confess that I don't give a flip about BJ and the Pro class kerfuffle! ....... I finally got to use 'kerfuffle' in a sentence!!
> 
> I'm almost embarrassed to admit I honestly don't care much about the K50 - Open Pro pecker measuring contest!
> 
> ...


The nail has been hit on the head


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

rodney482 said:


> Im gonna bet.. Without you


This.... Seems bowjunky had a heightened sense of self worth. Made the game about bowjunky, not about covering the sport.

It's the ESPN effect. When ESPN started, it was about covering the events. As it grew it became about promoting itself and now it's as much about social politics and commentary as it is about sports.

Bowjunky fell into this trap, without realizing he's still smaller than the game....way smaller.


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

100% yep





JawsDad said:


> This.... Seems bowjunky had a heightened sense of self worth. Made the game about bowjunky, not about covering the sport.
> 
> It's the ESPN effect. When ESPN started, it was about covering the events. As it grew it became about promoting itself and now it's as much about social politics and commentary as it is about sports.
> 
> Bowjunky fell into this trap, without realizing he's still smaller than the game....way smaller.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Yeeyee




rodney482 said:


> 100% yep


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

In on this one. The K50 shooters would be crushed if the pros stepped down.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Garceau said:


> There are already 2 other people/groups waiting in the wings to take over. This I know.
> 
> ArcHER could easily expand I think to include men's side of things



Ya man my post was more of a "according to BJ" type post in reference to how he ended his email. Lol. 

No doubt archery and 3D did fine before he came along, and archery will move on without him.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Cdpkook132 said:


> In on this one. The K50 shooters would be crushed if the pros stepped down.


Fact


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

If anyone wants to see how an archery tournament should be covered head over to bassmasters and watch the live show they are putting on for Bassfest...the live show is fantastic, when they do the wrap up shows on ESPN or Outdoor Channel that we've all seen those are incredible as well.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

It never fails that ones true self will always eventually become evident.


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

I wonder how much of the stuff he said in that email was truth or extremely over-exaggerated?!?! Either way, that was some serious "getting stuff off my chest" crap right there!!


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

shamlin said:


> I wonder how much of the stuff he said in that email was truth or extremely over-exaggerated?!?! Either way, that was some serious "getting stuff off my chest" crap right there!!


I bet there is stuff in that footage some folks don't want anyone to see. But at the same time I call bs on some as well. Like him saying he wanted nothing to do with the infamous arrow call at the ASA last year With Jeff Hopkins. If you listened to the podcast just after that and then the podcast with everyone involved it was clear to me at least he was fueling the fire.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I will take a rock to the head from the Pro's for this but......... Jason Corley raised MANY good points in his e-mail! No I am NOT endorsing his entire being or some of his actions but some of his email *is* brutally _true_. I've never really talked with BowJunky. I do not know him personally and again I am not backing him up entirely. In fact it's NOT in my personal best interest to even comment on any of this!!!!

I have great personal respect for many of the guys and gals in the Pro ranks. I have respect for the archery and competition skills most of them display. 

There's no reason the industry (ASA, Pro's and their sponsors, tournament endorsers) couldn't utilize some of his criticism to improve it's product. 

- Set the Pro shoot times so more fans (amateur archers) can watch them shoot a course. Say about 2:30 pm on Saturday. A lot of of us will be finished or close to finished and could hustle over and watch the big dogs run for a while. I've never been able to get on a Pro course and watch them actually competing.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

shawn_in_MA said:


> If anyone wants to see how an archery tournament should be covered head over to bassmasters and watch the live show they are putting on for Bassfest...the live show is fantastic, when they do the wrap up shows on ESPN or Outdoor Channel that we've all seen those are incredible as well.


I'm guessing if advertisers were willing to pay millions archery would be very well covered. The "coverage" reflects the money in the game.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

jtelarkin08 said:


> I still find it pathetic that the entry fee for the BEST of the BEST in 3d archery is $275. The lowest level of bass master open tour is 1000$ per boater. I can go any weekend in Vegas and find a 1000$+ poker tourney. If guys want to make any money they need to pony up some money.
> 
> _K50 should be 750$ entry and pro should be 1500$._ Let guys make enough money to pay travel expenses. There is only enough contingency money to go around.


Partly agree...BUT, if K50 wants PRO status, then dang it...Ante up and pay the SAME registration fees, whatever that may be, and Open PRO...or K50 should just shut their pie holes about gaining "Pro status." Open Pro registration is $1,500? Then K50 should be $1500 too, plain and simple...PRO is PRO...and it is bull hockey to give pro status to K50 and let them pay only half as much of a registration fee as Open Pro!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

iceman14 said:


> Profound


Yep...and those complaining are first off looking the gift horse in the mouth...and secondly, they'd cry and whine if they were being hung with a new rope, too!
There was an author that wrote a book "debunking" the range "estimation" myth several years ago...and he, too, was threatened, boycotted, and chastised for exposing the truth! You'll never guess by whom he was threatened, boycotted, and chastised? Gotta "cover your tracks".....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I'm guessing if advertisers were willing to pay millions archery would be very well covered. The "coverage" reflects the money in the game.


Very true...but it doesn't mean that the new whoever is doing the coverage can't take a few lessons.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I'm guessing if advertisers were willing to pay millions archery would be very well covered. The "coverage" reflects the money in the game.


Very true...but it doesn't mean that the new whoever is doing the coverage can't take a few lessons.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

field14 said:


> Yep...and those complaining are first off looking the gift horse in the mouth...and secondly, they'd cry and whine if they were being hung with a new rope, too!
> There was an author that wrote a book "debunking" the range "estimation" myth several years ago...and he, too, was threatened, boycotted, and chastised for exposing the truth! You'll never guess by whom he was threatened, boycotted, and chastised? Gotta "cover your tracks".....
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Care to PM me that book title?


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## Archerybuff (Oct 6, 2002)

ride394 said:


> Care to PM me that book title?


"Kirk Ethridge" *Professional archery technique*


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## Archerybuff (Oct 6, 2002)

Most of what he talks about doesn't work very well if the targets are quartered or partially obstructed. Never the less it does shed some light on things I have seen archers do in their pre-shot routine over years.


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

Tagged


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's all part of the game.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Archerybuff said:


> Most of what he talks about doesn't work very well if the targets are quartered or partially obstructed. Never the less it does shed some light on things I have seen archers do in their pre-shot routine over years.


The "dupe" was exposed, but naturally, the author didn't go into ALL the little "tricks" being used back then, and even now. You cannot see thru the shooters' eyes, scope, binoculars, etc. Today's unkown distance shooters are EXPERTS at what they do, PLUS they have the consistency and ability to MAKE GOOD SHOTS in addition to yardage "computation."
These top echelon 3-D shooters are really, really, good. Is it a "God given talent?" that nobody else has? I don't believe so, and there is data to support this, not only in archery, but in other games as well! It is a commitment, and a practiced and honed skill worked upon for YEARS and fine tuned to the individual's requirements for THEIR consistency. Good for them that they are willing to take the time and effort to hone these skills to such a high level of expertise! Only a FEW people are willing to dedicate themselves to this level.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

field14 said:


> The "dupe" was exposed, but naturally, the author didn't go into ALL the little "tricks" being used back then, and even now. You cannot see thru the shooters' eyes, scope, binoculars, etc. Today's unkown distance shooters are EXPERTS at what they do, PLUS they have the consistency and ability to MAKE GOOD SHOTS in addition to yardage "computation."
> These top echelon 3-D shooters are really, really, good. Is it a "God given talent?" that nobody else has? I don't believe so, and there is data to support this, not only in archery, but in other games as well! It is a commitment, and a practiced and honed skill worked upon for YEARS and fine tuned to the individual's requirements for THEIR consistency. Good for them that they are willing to take the time and effort to hone these skills to such a high level of expertise! Only a FEW people are willing to dedicate themselves to this level.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Exactly. Very well said. They are amazing to watch.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> Exactly. Very well said. They are amazing to watch.


But is it something "special" that you or I could never accomplish? ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is such an aura about this that seems to put these "experts" on a pedestal way above the "Normal human" as if they are super-human or something. Nope. Just downright dedicated, practiced, and the skills are honed and rehoned into a finely tuned "machine." They are human, not super human! They too, make mistakes, but not many! ha ha.
I highly respect them for what they have accomplished! Just don't go for the duping that it is something way above the call of duty or something and that it is a "God given talent" that separates them from all the others. This is a developed SKILL and that sort of thing doesn't just come about without tons of effort...natural ability? Nope. The added plus is that those that are consistently into the shoot downs have LEARNED and memorized those targets to the nth degree. Most if not all own the targets and have the time, patience, dedication, and resources to further hone their skill in knowing all the angles and dangles with regard to each target. One of the top Open Pros has publicly stated that if he didn't have the funds to OWN the set of targets and the time to learn them, he wouldn't stand a snowball's chance of winning!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## BARBWIRE (Feb 12, 2015)

field14 said:


> The "dupe" was exposed, but naturally, the author didn't go into ALL the little "tricks" being used back then, and even now. You cannot see thru the shooters' eyes, scope, binoculars, etc. Today's unkown distance shooters are EXPERTS at what they do, PLUS they have the consistency and ability to MAKE GOOD SHOTS in addition to yardage "computation."
> These top echelon 3-D shooters are really, really, good. Is it a "God given talent?" that nobody else has? I don't believe so, and there is data to support this, not only in archery, but in other games as well! It is a commitment, and a practiced and honed skill worked upon for YEARS and fine tuned to the individual's requirements for THEIR consistency. Good for them that they are willing to take the time and effort to hone these skills to such a high level of expertise! Only a FEW people are willing to dedicate themselves to this level.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Pretty well what Levi said at the meeting.Hard work and dedication.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

BARBWIRE said:


> Pretty well what Levi said at the meeting.Hard work and dedication.


Thank you...there are those on here that think the "fieldman" has ZERO knowledge concerning what 3-D archery is about, doesn't "understand 3-D" and all that snot! Yeah, right. How can you be in the competitive archery game for 50 years, shooting known AND Unknown distance FIELD and then once 3-D started getting into unknown 3-d in its infancy and NOT know what the heck is going on? Gimme a break! Of course I don't and haven't "practiced" 3-D a lot. I don't "memorize" the targets, cuz I won't spend the money to buy the set...don't have a place to set them up anyways. Could I ever get to the top in Open Pro? NO! I shot well, but not at the level of the Levi Morgans, the Reo Wildes, the Jesse Broadwaters and their ilk. Didn't have the time, money, nor quite that level of dedication. DEDICATION AND PRACTICE...

field14 (Tom D.)


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

im with Kstigall on the email.....certainly it all cant be lies. hmmmmmm....if he was covering all the shoots, all the time, im sure he saw what he says. whether or not he like to stir the pot, that's on him..but with $$ on the line im sure tensions can run high on the courses and he may have some footage to back that up. I hope its not true honestly.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

rodney482 said:


> Im gonna bet.. Without you


Remember that one time with the Recluse? It's almost like that all over again but on a much bigger level. Little blackmail threatening behind the scenes that he doesn't want anyone to see, then if you grant his wishes he wants to praise the company/shooter.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I don't doubt some of his statements. It seemed for a while he was in the "INNER CIRCLE" and has heard lots of things, some that people knew he was filming and some he may have recorded without them knowing. The BIG question is, is all that going to become public knowledge or not. Time will tell.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

pointndog said:


> I don't doubt some of his statements. It seemed for a while he was in the "INNER CIRCLE" and has heard lots of things, some that people knew he was filming and some he may have recorded without them knowing. The BIG question is, is all that going to become public knowledge or not. Time will tell.


I would guess that most of what Jason said in that email is true. And I only see things getting worse from hear.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Garceau said:


> Chops is the bomb...


Who's Chops?


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Who's Chops?


Chop Shot Archery.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Who's Chops?


You would know him if you saw him. lain:


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Who's Chops?


chop shot archery - check out his in depth videos on his site or youtube.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Garceau said:


> chop shot archery - check out his in depth videos on his site or youtube.


Dear God this guy is awesome!! 

Just watched this video and he had me by the 45sec mark.

I'm a fan. Must get a tshirt.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

The metropolis shoot down is epic......he's from up here. A great guy


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## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Dear God this guy is awesome!!
> 
> Just watched this video and he had me by the 45sec mark.
> 
> I'm a fan. Must get a tshirt.


Lol.


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Dear God this guy is awesome!!
> 
> Just watched this video and he had me by the 45sec mark.
> 
> I'm a fan. Must get a tshirt.


Ordered. Gonna grow some chops...


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

bowhuntermitch said:


> Remember that one time with the Recluse? It's almost like that all over again but on a much bigger level. Little blackmail threatening behind the scenes that he doesn't want anyone to see, then if you grant his wishes he wants to praise the company/shooter.


Oh I have not forgot...


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

Who was this email to?


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

I'm not a big fan of Jason, but his email doesn't seem that far fetched. As much as we like to think all our favorite pros are all bff's you can bet your ass they're not. These are people, just like the rest of us, and not everyone will get along. On top of that some people are just straight up a-holes. I'm sure all of the things Jason brought up in his email were going on behind the scenes long before he showed up.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

ride394 said:


> I'm not a big fan of Jason, but his email doesn't seem that far fetched. As much as we like to think all our favorite pros are all bff's you can bet your ass they're not. These are people, just like the rest of us, and not everyone will get along. On top of that some people are just straight up a-holes. I'm sure all of the things Jason brought up in his email were going on behind the scenes long before he showed up.


Yep, its common in any sort of competition.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

nhns4 said:


> Yep, its common in any sort of competition.


Not just competition, life in general. 

But I REALLY wish I was privy to the inside scoop just because it sounds like some juicy gossip lol. 

Us schmucks will never find out what goes on inside though as this sport seems to have the most closely guarded "inner circle" I've ever come across...


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

nhns4 said:


> Yep, its common in any sort of competition.


This is exactly why I think it's funny Jason is blowing it out of proportion. It happens in every competitive venue! From archery to track to basketball to billiards. Heated arguments arise and at the end of the day, people get over it! After all, it's their livelihood and job! This is what puts money on the table for their families. 

Jason is trying to put "fear" in some very specific figures in which he's speaking about in that email. He's playing the victim and calling people out. Plain and simple. 

I, personally, have had a eyebrow raised about him ever since Ryan left. 

I don't know Jason personally but I know people who have dealt with him first hand that share the same feelings as I do. 

I feel many others can to a better job with much less of an ego and drama that always seems to be following him.

Off to mix myself a MTN OPs energy drink.


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

In life i've found out what the letter A stands for in type A personality most of the time..................................

I've only ever shot in one tournament where i was actually shooting with/around top pros (big props to Dave Cousins, saw him help at least 3 people out during the day i shot with him) and while didn't see stuff in the league of what was talked about in the email, i was amazed at some of the attitudes and comments i saw from some of the pros (even a couple that have been put forth as golden boys of archery). So i would say there is definitely room for improvement there.

As for k50, i have no problem with known yardage as long as no aiming spots are added (almost all hunters have/use range finders now so to me the unknown part isn't really relevant anymore) but if someone wants a payday like a pro you have to put up like a pro, there is no way a $25 entry fee will (or should) get a payday the same as a $275 entry fee.

The top pro shooters in any for the disciplines are incredible shots (and have a bulletproof mental game) and if someone wants to take them on they have to be better than very good.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

If thats the case that they all bracket or what ever than why can I with no bow every nite of the summer go out and judge 15 targets and not be off by more than 2 yards and average less than 1 yard and get more than half within a half yard. Its bc I own the targets and look at them daily and work to set them in every way I can to fool myself. If you think you can bracket or something better than you can judge with you're eye you're nuts. And I would bet my paycheck that they could do the same better.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

This is my second year in senior pro and I am on the pro range I have never seen this stuff may a little tiff over a arrow call which is on every level butt when a lot of money is invovled it becomes more important that they get it right. Bow junky job was created by following the pros with out top shooters there would not need to be any coverage . I enjoyed there videos and interviews . And score updates.


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## Tony Bagnall (Sep 8, 2012)

As real newbie to competitive shooting... started this year... I find it discouraging that there is such a dislike between classes and types. Ie ... paper punchers foam hunters known unknowns hunter class etc. I guess I didn't realize the sport was so dare i say so segregated. I am not going to get into the my class is better than yours .... you don't deserve this you don't deserve that I work this hard I work that hard arguments. What is it really achieving??? 
I read the "infamous" email an I am in no place to comment. The same with many on here. 
As for who should get paid what as prize money at the end of the day isn't the money being put up as contingency by the companies.... Is this actually being driven by the bow companies? I dont really have the answers as to where the direction of the classes are going. Pro class unknown or Pro class known. As with the majority of people making comments will we ever be in a position that it matters?? I shoot my back yard class every day that I can. I shoot competitions when I can. This is really a strange dilemma .. From a competitors point of view ok a newbie it could be seen as good ohh another route I can take. From a pros view it dilutes the pro class and reduces the prize pot.. I understand that I understand the hours and years of practice to get to the high standards they have attained yep I wouldn't be happy either. So when you step back we all want to win a pot of gold. We all want to be world champion if we have the skills or not.... Many post on here show that in reality the pros would mover where the money is and who can blame them its their job. Will it be easier pickings??.... I don't think so. it will be just the same pros from the unknown pro class moved to known. 
Maybe there is space for two pro classes and maybe you have to earn the right to shoot in the classes. Earn your pro card in either class.. Move up from unknown classes and up from know classes. Have maximum numbers of pro cards available in each class.... Your SOY points show you finish in the top 3/4 of your class then you keep your pro card... in the bottom then then like golf you can loose your card or what ever.. same for both classes known and unknown. Prize monies are what ever the companies throw in as contingency an percentage of entrance fees. If you earned the card then it doesnt matter what the entrance fee is you have earned the right to shoot your pro class. 
The majority of people will never attain the level of pros though and for this reason there could be a better prize pool for all classes. I am not saying thousands of dollars but if you want to grow the sport... prizes could be coaching from the pros .... learn to judge distances from the pros... learn how to set up your bows from company tecs.. just a few thoughts.....


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

)


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

"Oh, the humanity"!!!


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## gunning (Aug 29, 2014)

Well Bow Junky has done a good job promoting archery especially 3d archery. The editing and most of the interviews are professionally done. I started getting into doing more competitive target and 3d archery this year and have learned things from watching the video's. I knew who a few pro archers were like Levi, Dave Hopkins, Tim Gillingham ext.. form seeing them on TV shows or manafacture's web-sites. I had no idea who Chance Beaubouef or Dan McCarthy Rio Wilde were until I saw them on a few BJ videos and podcasts that were very informative and enjoying, they are some of the best archers in the world and I had no idea who they were if it wasn't for Bow Junky. The hoyt set-up videos with Jack Wallace were awesome for someone like myself and a few friends that are getting into setting up their own bows, with that said, Jason seems like a bigger drama queen than a 13yr old cheerleader, at times sounds entitled, has no tact, and that e-mail was extreamly unprofessional. I don't know who that e-mail was addressed to but it got out for everyone to see, and that's a perception problem for him. 

He needs to apologies for it asap or if I were ASA I would tell him to take a hike. He provided the template for how it can work, it should be easy for someone or a small group of people to do the same thing and expand upon it. I don't want to hear someone complain about how hot they were carrying a darn camera on a 3d course for a living. Strap on a Ruck and hump that around for a living in 100*+ heat, or get deployed for months at a time, see how that effects your family life, like many of us have done. Hell come run my Fed-ex route monday and take my 11.5hr shift I might get to run without getting a break. Stop whining dude!!!!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

If someone else or group starts to cover 3D Tournament Archery I want both the good and bad just like any other sport you can't just portray the positives and sugar coat things. There are two sides and both need to be shown. I want to know who is taking longer than 2 minutes at a stake, I want to see the controversial arrow calls, I want to see the argruments and bad mouthing of equipment. Coverage must be biased and show the good and bad...Every other Professional Athlete in others sports are covered this way and if you want the title Professional you must allow coverage and exspect that when you are being filmed or photographed everything is fair game...

For the sport to grow and attract a national audience the Professionals are the face of the sport and it is on their shoulders to sell the game to a larger audience. Amateurs don't sell the product they follow and buy what the pros say and do. Responsibility comes with the Title Professional embrace it take it and run. With the right Professional 3D Archers - using agents and marketing firms the Professionals can grow the sport and earn a larger income.


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## ridgehunter70 (Sep 30, 2012)

I want to see no more drama and bickering. Jeeesshhh


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## duckaholic (Sep 1, 2008)

Yall do realize the companies have a budget, they set aside a certain amount to pay out. Another pro class with increased payout will not increase the companies budget on pay out. Therefore the other payout will be cut.


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## JustJerry (Feb 8, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> We have venues that identify the best "shooter" based on shooting alone. This is 3d. Most of us who play it, like it for what it is.
> 
> Known distance has its place. It isn't at the pro level in 3d.


What Tony said!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I am REALLY disappointed! I've been away from this thread for *3* days and ONLY 1.5 pages of posts have been added! 
I am starting to think this isn't a real big deal! The horror.......... Can we assume the vast majority of ASA 3D archers really aren't concerned about this "issue" more than a tiny bit?!?!?!? I must confess I gave this topic not a moments thought this weekend............


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Don't shoot 3d so my opinion is worthless, but would really love to see bowjunky just go away. He and it are just a joke to the sport and really not sure where his attitude comes from and why he walks around like people owe him something. he gets or got free stuff and paid to do what he was doing, so stop complaining. to me hes like that 38 year old ex high school football player that never played a game except the last play of the championship game when team was up 4 tds with 30 secs to go and they let him play on a kickoff cover, but now still goes to all of the pep rallys with his old jersey on. 

give the media opportunities to Jeff at Bowdoc. hes not a jerk, and is respectful to people whether shooting or supporting someone shooting. bowjunky is worthless and isn't going to grow the sport


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

We had some good convo's this weekend about it at the range.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

From the sound of it his past issues were well known. 

So I'm curious as to why Hoyt dropped him, and also curious as to why he was so biased to the K50.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

GVDocHoliday said:


> From the sound of it his past issues were well known.
> 
> So I'm curious as to why Hoyt dropped him, and also curious as to why he was so biased to the K50.


because that's what he likes and thinks is the only valid type of shooting.. which is valid when you see and hear him complain about every other type of shooting.. especially indoor


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

gcab said:


> because that's what he likes and thinks is the only valid type of shooting.. which is valid when you see and hear him complain about every other type of shooting.. especially indoor


I enjoyed his coverage. But dang I was ticked when he didn't keep a pro leader board at KY.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

GVDocHoliday said:


> I enjoyed his coverage. But dang I was ticked when he didn't keep a pro leader board at KY.


:secret:It's hard to do a leader board when no one will share their score cards!


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> :secret:It's hard to do a leader board when no one will share their score cards!


So was he blackballed?


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Anyone notice that Truball and Axcel aren't on his sponsors page any more also.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

GVDocHoliday said:


> So was he blackballed?


lain:


It's too bad too. I really enjoy his coverage of the ASA's. Quality work.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

GVDocHoliday said:


> So was he blackballed?


Yes from what I was told he wasn't given a chance to cover any of the pro ranges. This came from a pro. They chose to not share scores so he could run the leaderboard on their ranges.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

robbyreneeward said:


> Yes from what I was told he wasn't given a chance to cover any of the pro ranges. This came from a pro. They chose to not share scores so he could run the leaderboard on their ranges.


And I'm assuming that was the impetus for him sending out that now infamous email?


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

BillyRay said:


> And I'm assuming that was the impetus for him sending out that now infamous email?


Bingo. That email made him his own worst enemy. On a side note - it looks as if he's shooting a Mathews with a HHA Kingpin on it now.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

I've heard rumors on why he lost Hoyt and the source was pretty good. Haven't heard why he lost tru ball. 

On another note, I am hearing that we shouldn't expect him back at another ASA but I don't know if that's true.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> I've heard rumors on why he lost Hoyt and the source was pretty good. Haven't heard why he lost tru ball.
> 
> On another note, I am hearing that we shouldn't expect him back at another ASA but I don't know if that's true.


C'mpn gotta tell us the rumor now.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

pointndog said:


> C'mpn gotta tell us the rumor now.


Sent ya a PM


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Huntin Hard said:


> I've heard rumors on why he lost Hoyt and the source was pretty good. Haven't heard why he lost tru ball.
> 
> On another note, I am hearing that we shouldn't expect him back at another ASA but I don't know if that's true.


Can't speak to Hoyt, but all his pictures he posted on FB yesterday had Truball stamped on the pictures.


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

Chops it the man. Hysterical, entertaining, and spot on. Interview with Dan McCarthy was epic! Great job!


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Perry24 said:


> Can't speak to Hoyt, but all his pictures he posted on FB yesterday had Truball stamped on the pictures.


Not yesterday's, the ones from Friday did though. Yesterday's didn't from what I saw and Fridays did unless he edited them


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> Not yesterday's, the ones from Friday did though. Yesterday's didn't from what I saw and Fridays did unless he edited them


I noticed that on Friday also, yesterdays just have the BJ logo on them.


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## MI1 (Apr 10, 2013)

its about ISIS


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> I've heard rumors on why he lost Hoyt and the source was pretty good. Haven't heard why he lost tru ball.
> 
> On another note, I am hearing that we shouldn't expect him back at another ASA but I don't know if that's true.


Would also like to know. 

Truball and Axcel are no longer on his sponsors/partners page. I'm surprised he hasn't made an appearance here. I'm sure he's lurking.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

I'd like to know as well.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Huntin Hard said:


> Sent ya a PM


would you mind pm me that as well? wont post it anywhere


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

As sure as the world turns, so are the bows of our lives.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

GVDocHoliday said:


> So was he blackballed?


I wouldn't call it "black balled". I don't think the Pro's themselves as a group independently chose to blow him off. 
A pebble tossed into a pond or a Great Lake causes ripples regardless of the effect on the surface the pebble sinks. Not as cryptic....... The archery world is small and an ugly mistake could bite you in the butt viciously or maybe not at all. Right or wrong it can go either way quickly.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Kighty7 said:


> Chops it the man. Hysterical, entertaining, and spot on. Interview with Dan McCarthy was epic! Great job!


He does have a different take but 3D Archery needs someone more serious for coverage that will biased and not afraid to show the good and the controversial at the same time. Someone that understands friendship and quality coverage.


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## JustJerry (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm betting the Fat Lady has begun to sing!


----------



## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Shes probably getting ready for encore performance.... looks like will go the way of The Tournament Archer magazine...


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Would be the morall of this story.


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Huntin Hard said:


> Not yesterday's, the ones from Friday did though. Yesterday's didn't from what I saw and Fridays did unless he edited them


Yeah, I could have sworn they had the Truball logo last night. Thanks for the correction.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Jason posted Saturday that he was glad to shoot an HHA and didn't have to hide that fact. 

Figured his deal with Axcel was winding down.


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## Ky*Bowhunter (Aug 18, 2013)

So did hoyt and axcel drop him because of the turmoil he was causing between pros or was this some other underlying factor?


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Running Long Jump

I have a friend of mine who is really good at the Running Long Jump. You should see him. He is just awesome at this specialty in Track and Field.

I myself can not do the Running Long Jump, but I'm pretty good at the Standing Long Jump. I just can't run fast enough or get the timing of the jump down after running. So I have just been happy participating in the Standing Long Jump, ...until recently! 

They have come up with a new invention that will help a ton of people get into track and field and really boost the participation in Running Long Jump. Basically it is a moving sidewalk that propels you, faster and faster, towards the jumping line without you having to run. You just chose the right moment to jump, and off you go.

It was really great to finally be able to compete with my friend in this awesome sport! (Sometimes I even jumped a little farther than him! How awesome am I?) No longer do I have to just be a Standing Long Jumper....I am now a Running Long Jumper as well! I know, I know...it's all track and field, right? 

What I don't get.....my friend overheard my talking to some people about how I really liked being a Running Long Jumper.....and he got all pissy! He said that I was certainly getting a feel for the sport,and indeed this was increasing the exposure, but....it really wasn't the Running Long Jump.

Can you imagine the nerve? I mean.......I start at the same place he does.....and we end up in the jumping pit at the end......how is that not a Running Long Jump? Then what is it? 

What? 

You want us to call it another name? Like, say.....Fancy Running Long Jump? I jump just like you do......just because I don't run down the track before I jump doesn't mean that I shouldn't be called a Running Long Jumper.

I mean, I guess I could take the time to develop the needed skills and really challenge the other participants, but who's got time for that? I spend all my time working on my specialty, The Standing Long jump. 

I don't know what his problem is. This is the wave of the future for this sport. In fact, people using this moving sidewalk for Running Long Jump is the fastest growing segment in the different tack and field organizations in the USA.

Any way.......I just hope that we can all have fun in Track and Field together............even if my friend doesn't think I'm a Running Long Jumper.


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## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

JDoupe said:


> Running Long Jump
> 
> I have a friend of mine who is really good at the Running Long Jump. You should see him. He is just awesome at this specialty in Track and Field.
> 
> ...


Is it the same moving sidewalk they have at the airport? I wouldn't think those go fast enough to get a good jump off of.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm just wondering how many of the people that think that K50 should get the same kind of payouts as Open Pro also think that the McDonalds workers should get their $15/hr.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> So did hoyt and axcel drop him because of the turmoil he was causing between pros or was this some other underlying factor?


Axcel was at the meeting in London, KY.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Why does someone standing behind a camera(doesn't do the interviews anymore, or the tuning sessions with the pros like the one with Chance, doesn't post videos... just takes still photos which anyone with an iphone can do just the same) think that his opinion is the one that matters and that he knows better than everyone else, to the point of having such an attitude and an entitlement mentality?


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Hoyt dropped him cause ive heard Mathews and the outdoorgroup wanted his leftovers.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

"Bowmen" and "Archer" are working together to create a new live scoring system for 3d this year.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Who's starting bowmen up??


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I think the 3D guys ought to do *ARCH*er. lain:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> Who's starting bowmen up??


I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. The introduction I saw came from Nathan B and specifically named Tommy G, Jack W, Cara K and Kaitlyn P....but my impression is that it is a collaborative effort by all (or many) pros.

I know that a live scoring system (maybe like Lancaster?) is high priority for them and they hope to have it this year.


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## Ghostbuck (Nov 8, 2003)

Saw his Facebook post about #freedom because he was at a bow shop and finally able to purchase his choice of bow. I suppose if having to lay out cash for a bow instead of getting free bows makes you feel free, more power to you. Sure seems like a backhanded jab at some of his previous sponsors to me. Cheapens the BowJunky brand i think, but maybe the brand has already suffered too much damage? Time will tell.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. The introduction I saw came from Nathan B and specifically named Tommy G, Jack W, Cara K and Kaitlyn P....but my impression is that it is a collaborative effort by all (or many) pros.
> 
> I know that a live scoring system (maybe like Lancaster?) is high priority for them and they hope to have it this year.


I had heard they were going the way of Archeryevents.com. but maybe they want to do their own thing. Makes sense.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Ghostbuck said:


> Saw his Facebook post about #freedom because he was at a bow shop and finally able to purchase his choice of bow. I suppose if having to lay out cash for a bow instead of getting free bows makes you feel free, more power to you. Sure seems like a backhanded jab at some of his previous sponsors to me. Cheapens the BowJunky brand i think, but maybe the brand has already suffered too much damage? Time will tell.


So instead of humping a bow he was givin, now he can hump a bow he purchased.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

nhns4 said:


> I had heard they were going the way of Archeryevents.com. but maybe they want to do their own thing. Makes sense.


You know at least as much as I do. I have no idea what the platform ends up looking like.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> You know at least as much as I do. I have no idea what the platform ends up looking like.


So your saying neither of us have a clue LOL


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

nhns4 said:


> So your saying neither of us have a clue LOL


Well, I was hoping you had one.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Nah, I was just told: "Funny thing, thanks to BLOWjunky all the Pros are switching over the ArcheryEvents. Talks out of both sides of his mouth and the Pros have text message Proof. He Is Done" Along with some curse words lol


tmorelli said:


> Well, I was hoping you had one.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. The introduction I saw came from Nathan B and specifically named Tommy G, Jack W, Cara K and Kaitlyn P....but my impression is that it is a collaborative effort by all (or many) pros.
> 
> I know that a live scoring system (maybe like Lancaster?) is high priority for them and they hope to have it this year.


I like the idea of a live scoring system but don't like the idea of Pros covering Pros. You need coverage from an outside prospective that will show the controversial along with the good...the name Bowman needs some serious work.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cenochs said:


> I like the idea of a live scoring system but don't like the idea of Pros covering Pros. You need coverage from an outside prospective that will show the controversial along with the good...the name Bowman needs some serious work.


I believe the intent is to promote pros, and archery as a whole, as a unified voice, not cover archery/pros as a media source. 

Again though, I'm speculating and making assumptions. 

I don't care what they call it BTW.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

I still think the women should do it all like i posted to their FB page. ArcHER for Him lol. Cause you know the men will screw it up haha


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli;1073611809 said:


> I believe the intent is to promote pros, and archery as a whole, as a unified voice, not cover archery/pros as a media source.
> 
> Again though, I'm speculating and making assumptions.
> 
> I don't care what they call it BTW.


If it's basically contrived "infomercials" I'm not so sure how well it will do over time. Real time coverage of the competition itself is what is needed. Pro's promoting themselves and archery products (infomercials) can be done by about anyone at anytime and anywhere.

Real competition coverage will show how much tension there is and the pressures the archers must manage to compete well. Yes, some "images" of archers and the 3D game would get smudged occasionally but that's not necessarily a terrible thing. In fact it can help Pro's to develop a real following building a fan base. If Joe Pro had to apologize to fans for getting emotionally carried away would be _good _for the game overall! Having the Pro's disappear onto the course and then showing up with their scores may protect their "image" but it is certainly less than exciting or even interesting. Having a "Terminator" on the 3D course and people watching in real time would definitely increase the value of all the Pro archers. Doing their jobs in the shadows and only really being seen if they make the shoot down means there is a small window for fans to be interested in the game. Because only a handful of Pro's consistently make the shoot down there are less opportunities for "fans" to get committed to following an archer or the game. Very rarely do we ever see a Pro's personally so it's real hard to care one way or another about what they do in a tournament......... There might be a Pro out there that rarely makes the shoot down that would develop a following if more people saw him competing obviously this could increase his value to a sponsor or potential sponsor.

In a nut shell, real time coverage of competition on the ranges would increase the value of the game AND increase the value of each Pro. Both of which would mean more money FOR the Pro's across the board! If the audience is bigger then sponsors will make more money........

Archery must have more exposure to increase "success" for Pro archers and archery product manufacturers. 

I know little about business, marketing or being a Pro archer but I do believe if I was a "Pro" I would be looking for ways to get more exposure to increase my "value" and the games value to sponsors. Million dollar baseball players hang out before games signing autographs and chatting with fans occasionally.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I like the idea but am concerned because of the track record of past pro media collaborations.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> If it's basically contrived "infomercials" I'm not so sure how well it will do over time. Real time coverage of the competition itself is what is needed. Pro's promoting themselves and archery products (infomercials) can be done by about anyone at anytime and anywhere.
> 
> Real competition coverage will show how much tension there is and the pressures the archers must manage to compete well. Yes, some "images" of archers and the 3D game would get smudged occasionally but that's not necessarily a terrible thing. In fact it can help Pro's to develop a real following building a fan base. If Joe Pro had to apologize to fans for getting emotionally carried away would be _good _for the game overall! Having the Pro's disappear onto the course and then showing up with their scores may protect their "image" but it is certainly less than exciting or even interesting. Having a "Terminator" on the 3D course and people watching in real time would definitely increase the value of all the Pro archers. Doing their jobs in the shadows and only really being seen if they make the shoot down means there is a small window for fans to be interested in the game. Because only a handful of Pro's consistently make the shoot down there are less opportunities for "fans" to get committed to following an archer or the game. Very rarely do we ever see a Pro's personally so it's real hard to care one way or another about what they do in a tournament......... There might be a Pro out there that rarely makes the shoot down that would develop a following if more people saw him competing obviously this could increase his value to a sponsor or potential sponsor.
> 
> ...


Everything you said is correct and if the people involved are wise they will look for a marketing firm for advise. Their expertise is shooting a bow not filming and marketing 3D Archery. They need to realize there responsibilities lie elsewhere. They can influence the coverage by the way they perform and how they interact with fans. I liked your point about signing autographs- how many of the current pros do this now? How many run as fast as they can after they shoot and are never seen again until the next days shoot time?


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Getting fired isn't freedom.. its getting fired. how soon before he just goes away like he should. hes just a joke now and tries too hard to be a "cool" kid and like hes important to anyone. hes irrelevant in the real competitive world outside people like to see pics of themselves on the ranges.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

I would venture to say that once one big major bow company stops paying contingency the rest will follow suit. IMO I don't believe the pros are trying to grow or promote anything except their paychecks. They can say whatever they want but their actions tell the story. Except for a handful the majority of the pros are non-existent when they are done shooting. Talk about a slap in the face to their sponsors.

I personally could care less if there aren't any pro classes and I feel like the majority of people attending the national shoots feel the same way. You could always post a poll on here to see how many would attend an ASA event if no pros were there although the AT gestapo would take it down quickly. I bet the response would be overwhelming and prove my beliefs. I know I would still attend as well as all my friends.

The pros can keep dreaming about sugar plums and one day shooting for big payouts because it is never going to happen. I said NEVER!!! The general population doesn't know who Levi, Tim, Tommy, Danny or any other pro is and could care less if you told them. Archery is the same as any other shooting sport. It excites a small portion of the population and will never be mainstream. People who don't shoot archery or have never tried it don't get excited when Danny shoots a 14 in the wind to win the tournament. They're like OK what's the big deal???


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

GVDocHoliday said:


> From the sound of it his past issues were well known.
> 
> So I'm curious as to why Hoyt dropped him, and also curious as to why he was so biased to the K50.



Duh???? Because he can't judge yardage and he couldn't get McKenzie to donate a range to him.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> I would venture to say that once one big major bow company stops paying contingency the rest will follow suit. IMO I don't believe the pros are trying to grow or promote anything except their paychecks. They can say whatever they want but their actions tell the story. Except for a handful the majority of the pros are non-existent when they are done shooting. Talk about a slap in the face to their sponsors.
> 
> The pros can keep dreaming about sugar plums and one day shooting for big payouts because it is never going to happen. I said NEVER!!! The general population doesn't know who Levi, Tim, Tommy, Danny or any other pro is and could care less if you told them. Archery is the same as any other shooting sport. It excites a small portion of the population and will never be mainstream. People who don't shoot archery or have never tried it don't get excited when Danny shoots a 14 in the wind to win the tournament. They're like OK what's the big deal???


Pro shooters don't shoot tournaments in hopes of big payouts someday. They do it because they love the competition. Most of the guys shooting the pro class have been shooting for 10+ years, or in some cases 20+ years. You really think they go every season hoping if they just keep holding out that maybe they will shoot for big money? If money was all they cared about, the vast majority of them would have hung up archery long ago. But they keep shoot and competing because they are competitors. And I believe most pros have a good grasp on reality when it comes to the limits to where archery can grow. Archery and bowhunting is a very niche market. Especially when you consider the majority of even bowhunters don't really care about shooting year round, and really only drag their bows out a few months of the year to hunt. Then it goes back into the closet once gun season starts.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> Pro shooters don't shoot tournaments in hopes of big payouts someday. They do it because they love the competition. Most of the guys shooting the pro class have been shooting for 10+ years, or in some cases 20+ years. You really think they go every season hoping if they just keep holding out that maybe they will shoot for big money? If money was all they cared about, the vast majority of them would have hung up archery long ago. But they keep shoot and competing because they are competitors. And I believe most pros have a good grasp on reality when it comes to the limits to where archery can grow. Archery and bowhunting is a very niche market. Especially when you consider the majority of even bowhunters don't really care about shooting year round, and really only drag their bows out a few months of the year to hunt. Then it goes back into the closet once gun season starts.


Then why all the fuss about wanting change? They want bigger payouts period. Wait a minute let me clarify. The ones winning all the time want more money.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Then why all the fuss about wanting change? They want bigger payouts period. Wait a minute let me clarify. The ones winning all the time want more money.


And whether they get it or not, they will keep shooting and competing week after week, year after year.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

IRISH_11 said:


> Then why all the fuss about wanting change? They want bigger payouts period. Wait a minute let me clarify. The ones winning all the time want more money.


You're more than a little off here...


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

IRISH_11 said:


> Then why all the fuss about wanting change? They want bigger payouts period. Wait a minute let me clarify. The ones winning all the time want more money.


K50 wants bigger payouts but they dont want to pay the "pro" entry fee.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> You're more than a little off here...


Pros smos, there are a handful of decent ones but the majority are a bunch of self-centered crybabies.
I honestly could care less if they abolish the pro class. I wish the manufacturers would put an end to all contingency. I mean you can shoot a bow? Whooopie...


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

IRISH_11 said:


> Pros smos, there are a handful of decent ones but the majority are a bunch of self-centered crybabies.
> I honestly could care less if they abolish the pro class. I wish the manufacturers would put an end to all contingency. I mean you can shoot a bow? Whooopie...


You seem upset that you either shoot a G5 bow or are no where near as good as any of these shmoes


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Pros smos, there are a handful of decent ones but the majority are a bunch of self-centered crybabies.
> I honestly could care less if they abolish the pro class. I wish the manufacturers would put an end to all contingency. I mean you can shoot a bow? Whooopie...


So in other words...you are just butt hurt that you will never be able to shoot on their level. Your bitterness is actually pretty epic.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

nhns4 said:


> You seem upset that you either shoot a G5 bow or are no where near as good as any of these shmoes


Lol......not hardly. I don't think I could stand to shoot in that class even if G5 was footing the bill. To many JO's in that class. They need organized leadership not a set of rules. A code of conduct so to speak. 

I wish all the manufacturers could get together and form a pro organization with a set of by-laws and a constitution so the shmoes could be held accountable. Call it the manufacturer class like they had years ago. Make their sorry butts have to pay dues to keep their membership current or they can't compete. Make them have to work the event and do seminars when they are done shooting. Make them spend time on the youth ranges.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> So in other words...you are just butt hurt that you will never be able to shoot on their level. Your bitterness is actually pretty epic.


Lol....not hurt at all Billy. Just call it like I see it. Put a poll up and find out for yourself. Ask how many care if the pro class was abolished. Truth hurts old boy.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> I wouldn't call it "black balled". I don't think the Pro's themselves as a group independently chose to blow him off.
> A pebble tossed into a pond or a Great Lake causes ripples regardless of the effect on the surface the pebble sinks. Not as cryptic....... The archery world is small and an ugly mistake could bite you in the butt viciously or maybe not at all. Right or wrong it can go either way quickly.


Shades of The Tournament Archer...only that was not a liddle, biddie ugly mistake. :blob1:


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

IRISH_11 said:


> Lol....not hurt at all Billy. *Just call it like I see it*. Put a poll up and find out for yourself. Ask how many care if the pro class was abolished. Truth hurts old boy.


Call it like you see it? Reading some of your comments in this thread....that's not saying much. Lol


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> Call it like you see it? Reading some of your comments in this thread....that's not saying much. Lol


Let me put it different way. The pro class is in need of an enema.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Can't recall ever shooting a team shoot where I was blessed with a jerk of a pro.

I see people like Gary Studt working the Doinker booth and taking time to talk with folks, offering advice. Same with Gillingham. He's usually at the Gold Tip/BStinger booth and is always willing to answer questions and talk archery. Granted some seem to run and hide in the motorhome or head back to their motels, but I guess they don't need us so I guess we don't need them. :wink:


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Can't recall ever shooting a team shoot where I was blessed with a jerk of a pro.
> 
> I see people like Gary Studt working the Doinker booth and taking time to talk with folks, offering advice. Same with Gillingham. He's usually at the Gold Tip/BStinger booth and is always willing to answer questions and talk archery. Granted some seem to run and hide in the motorhome or head back to their motels, but I guess they don't need us so I guess we don't need them. :wink:


True. Most are not bad people. Their class just has no leadership or no accountability which is why they act the way they do. Anyone who was at the meeting in London would say that the pros talking sounded pretty unprofessional and the more they talked their true colors were seen. You only see the true character of a man when he is under adversity. Take this with a grain of salt as I did not attend the meeting but was told the same story from several that did attend.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

IRISH_11 said:


> True. Most are not bad people. Their class just has no leadership or no accountability which is why they act the way they do. Anyone who was at the meeting in London would say that the pros talking sounded pretty unprofessional and the more they talked their true colors were seen. You only see the true character of a man when he is under adversity. Take this with a grain of salt as I did not attend the meeting but was told the same story from several that did attend.


Trust me, I'm taking the whole shaker where you are concerned.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Anyone else starting to think that Irish is Bowjunky? 

He was promising in an earlier thread that the ASA would go all known soon.......now he's wanting to dissolve contingency money and fire all of the Pros........hmmm:sad:

Bueller? Jason? Is that you?


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

I wish I was BJ and had all the money and free merchandize he collected.

In my prior post about everything going known I was merely conveying what was told to me by a well known pro. For that and the post in which I said Chance would shoot K50 in London I will eat crow. Don't have a problem saying I was wrong. 

Not wanting to see anyone lose their job rattlinman. I just wish the pros would act like pros. As long as people can be considered pro for $300 I guess that is to be expected. You get what you pay for. 

Somebody tell me what the pros do for the manufacturers that represent them? Bow companies make their money from Bowhunters not 3D shooters.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

rattlinman said:


> Anyone else starting to think that Irish is Bowjunky?
> 
> He was promising in an earlier thread that the ASA would go all known soon.......now he's wanting to dissolve contingency money and fire all of the Pros........hmmm:sad:
> 
> Bueller? Jason? Is that you?


He certainly has an agenda, that's for certain.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> He certainly has an agenda, that's for certain.


No agenda at all tuck.

I'm merely voicing my opinion. I you don't like it don't read it. Its not like I'm holding a gun to your head making you read it.

In my OPINION, not having any pros show up in Metropolis wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit. I mean besides Tim or Gary you don't see none of them anyways. I'm sure most feel the same. Ask the question in a poll and find out.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

IRISH_11 said:


> No agenda at all tuck.
> 
> I'm merely voicing my opinion. I you don't like it don't read it. Its not like I'm holding a gun to your head making you read it.
> 
> In my OPINION, not having any pros show up in Metropolis wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit. I mean besides Tim or Gary you don't see none of them anyways. I'm sure most feel the same. Ask the question in a poll and find out.


That's at least the second, maybe third or more, time you've said that. Make a poll then. You're taking an anti-pro stance, even if it is an opinion, it is an agenda. So, what you should do is take your own advice and start a poll.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's at least the second, maybe third or more, time you've said that. Make a poll then. You're taking an anti-pro stance, even if it is an opinion, it is an agenda. So, what you should do is take your own advice and start a poll.


The Gestapo admin here would take it down.


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

IRISH_11 said:


> The Gestapo admin here would take it down.


Then why ask others to do something you yourself are unwilling to do?


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Then why ask others to do something you yourself are unwilling to do?


WTH I'll do it.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Polls up. Get your vote on boys and girls.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Good grief man...are you mentally challenged? You couldn't even go from this thread, to putting up a poll without forgetting what your original poll question was....LOL :chortle: :spit:


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

BillyRay said:


> Good grief man...are you mentally challenged? You couldn't even go from this thread, to putting up a poll without forgetting what your original poll question was....LOL :chortle: :spit:


That why I wanted you to put it up☺


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

IRISH_11 said:


> I wish I was BJ and had all the money and free merchandize he collected.
> 
> In my prior post about everything going known I was merely conveying what was told to me by a well known pro. For that and the post in which I said Chance would shoot K50 in London I will eat crow. Don't have a problem saying I was wrong.
> 
> ...


Why don't you quit spreading rumors?


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

De de deeee


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Billincamo said:


> Why don't you quit spreading rumors?


These so called rumors came from a reputable pro. 

You don't have to worry about it because I don't get bit by the same dog twice. Lesson learned.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

All the pros have seems very nice and approachable at the ASA events that I have run across.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

sagecreek said:


> All the pros have seems very nice and approachable at the ASA events that I have run across.


X2. I've saw the same thing


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> All the pros have seems very nice and approachable at the ASA events that I have run across.


Most are that way. No different than the guys in open C.


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## southgaboy (Jan 28, 2007)

can't believe this one made it to 20 pages


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

IRISH_11 said:


> Most are that way. No different than the guys in open C.


Little pro Jealousy is all I see in your post! Trying to compare the pro class to Open C class is a stretch. Just like any sport the pros are the best of the best and have earned there way to the top. The game of 3D has always been played you estimate the yardage. Learn to play it but don't try and change what has worked for many years.
You can add the known yardage you want but Pro class will always be yardage judgement. I certainly like the Idea of allowing the pros a chance to shoot the K50 at a Pro entry fee and we will see who wins! There room for both!
DB


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

IRISH_11 said:


> I wish I was BJ and had all the money and free merchandize he collected.
> 
> In my prior post about everything going known I was merely conveying what was told to me by a well known pro. For that and the post in which I said Chance would shoot K50 in London I will eat crow. Don't have a problem saying I was wrong.
> 
> ...


Bow hunters are huge but at our shop the 3 d guys are the bow hunters that when they tried 3d got hooked and most now buy two and three bows now in 6 months trying to find the best bow for targets.slide bars ,long stab.i for one love to introduce new people to 3 d and watch them fall in love with the greatest sport and then introduce it to there wives and kidds.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

A smart marketing individual recognizes that not bow hunters are 3d shooters but nearly all (not entirely) 3d shooters are bow hunters. Now you have a single consumer with a much higher potential to sell them 2 bows. Or more. Each year! How many bow hunters buy new as often as 3d shooters? It IS definately worthwhile to get a hold on the 3d market.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Even the women pro's shoot unknown 3d!!! Does anyone else think the women pro's would beat the k50 guys on a unknown 3d course?


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

573mms said:


> Even the women pro's shoot unknown 3d!!! Does anyone else think the women pro's would beat the k50 guys on a unknown 3d course?


Yes


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## cardiac kid (Jan 29, 2008)

Could any of the women pro's finish in 10th place at last year's Kentucky proam in open pro like the winner of this year's k50 class at the Kentucky proam,
that would be Mitchell Irvin


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

573mms said:


> Even the women pro's shoot unknown 3d!!! Does anyone else think the women pro's would beat the k50 guys on a unknown 3d course?


There's a handful that id say could beat the women's pro. I mean the guys who shot open pro that switched to k50 weren't there by pure luck.


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## Coach42743 (Aug 28, 2010)

Here is my 2 cents worth on all of this...I am an avid ASA fan, I participate in the Bow Novice class and will until I win out. I understand all the issues that have been discussed so IMO here is a simple solution. Make all classes based on AGE and YARDAGE. If you want to grow the Open Pro class, then make all classes half KNOWN, half UNKNOWN except for the Pro Class. Then the excuse " I can't judge yardage " can no longer be used. This is coming from someone who struggles in judging yardage but practices it because of Hunting Purposes. I commend the Open Pros and their ability to judge yardage. That separates them from the rest IMO. Thats why they are PRO. If a PRO class is all known yardage, then heck we can all turn pro, just pay the entry fees. Even tho I have some I consider friends in the K50 class, I still argue the point they should NOT be paid the amount of money the Open Pro guys receive. If you want those checks, enter and win...plain and simple. In all sport we've adopted the mind concept that everyone should be a winner...I can't stand that. If you want to be the BEST, beat the BEST and then you have a say so...until then, don't cause so much controversy that you ruin a SPORT we all LOVE !!!


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## bowtechnow (Sep 15, 2008)

Coach42743 said:


> Here is my 2 cents worth on all of this...I am an avid ASA fan, I participate in the Bow Novice class and will until I win out. I understand all the issues that have been discussed so IMO here is a simple solution. Make all classes based on AGE and YARDAGE. If you want to grow the Open Pro class, then make all classes half KNOWN, half UNKNOWN except for the Pro Class. Then the excuse " I can't judge yardage " can no longer be used. This is coming from someone who struggles in judging yardage but practices it because of Hunting Purposes. I commend the Open Pros and their ability to judge yardage. That separates them from the rest IMO. Thats why they are PRO. If a PRO class is all known yardage, then heck we can all turn pro, just pay the entry fees. Even tho I have some I consider friends in the K50 class, I still argue the point they should NOT be paid the amount of money the Open Pro guys receive. If you want those checks, enter and win...plain and simple. In all sport we've adopted the mind concept that everyone should be a winner...I can't stand that. If you want to be the BEST, beat the BEST and then you have a say so...until then, don't cause so much controversy that you ruin a SPORT we all LOVE !!!


That's a good 2 cents.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Who is asking for "something for nothing"? Or a "hand out"? Or "we all should win"? I keep hearing people say that they are tired of hearing that, but I haven't heard one person on hear, on Facebook, or on a 3d range ask for any of that! I am pretty sure whatever class you shoot, you still have to put in the work, the entree fee, and the time, to win! I don't see anyone handing out participation trophies!!! I would really like to know where you guys come up with half the BS that you feed people???


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

Mark1976 said:


> Who is asking for "something for nothing"? Or a "hand out"? Or "we all should win"? I keep hearing people say that they are tired of hearing that, but I haven't heard one person on hear, on Facebook, or on a 3d range ask for any of that! I am pretty sure whatever class you shoot, you still have to put in the work, the entree fee, and the time, to win! I don't see anyone handing out participation trophies!!! I would really like to know where you guys come up with half the BS that you feed people???


Asking for the same money at a lower fee is asking for something for nothing.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Asking for the same money at a lower fee is asking for something for nothing.


Well technically it's getting something for less.....


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I haven't heard anyone ask for that either! I shoot K50 and haven't heard one person say that they want more money for a lesser fee! The guys that would "eventually" like to see a known pro class are willing to pay a pro certification fee and the higher registration fee. The few that don't want to shoot at a pro level just want to know if there will be a class for them to shoot like k50 is set up now! No one is asking for anything for free or has the "everyone should win" mentality! The people that are saying this are seriously misinformed or just want to start crap!


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Have you fellas heard this from someone that currently shoots K50 or just from the typical pot stirrers?


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I guess the no response answers my question! It would be nice if people would get the whole story before they start bashing people or a class they really no nothing about or the guys that shoot in it! There is a reason that all this stuff has gotten out of hand and it sure as heck ain't because of the guys in K50! If everyone stopped and actually thought about it, it's not hard to figure out. But no one will figure it out listening to the crap that is being said on here or on Facebook.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Lets make something clear k50 wasn't asking for pro contingency just asking for some bow companies who where paying other non-pro classes contingency to add k50 to their contingency payouts. We were a semi-pro class paying higher entries than anyone except for pro's and semi and had practically no companies offering contingency in it. Thank goodness a few has stepped up and added us to their list. So wanting something for nothing is a big load of BS! When your a semi pro class with several pro class shooters in it and not even getting what several of the other amateur classes were getting in contingency, we where just looking for a little recognition. Trust me most of us put in a lot of time traveling to practice and shoot and many of us still work on judging for the times when we shoot tournaments that dont have known classes. Many of us at one time where very competitive shooters in unknown classes and would still be if aloud to move down, just not at the pro level. We choose to shoot K50 cause we enjoy the fact it's a true shooting competition. Most who have posted on here have no clue how tough the competition in the class really is without shooting it. Most of us understand the pro's get what they get because its earned. Most of us where just looking to at least get some of the same respect other amateur classes where getting. Any of you guys who want something for nothing or a easy win just jump on over and shoot K50 with us and see how that works out for you. Nobody ask for something for nothing, that is the biggest load so tired of keyboard jockeys running their chops without knowing all the details. If you choose to shoot unknown great that's why it is there, but don't mouth others about their choice. Pretty much if you don't shoot pro or K50 you don't have a dog in this conversation any ways. And just to be clear most of us wasn't asking for what the Pro's have or thought we deserved it. I normally wouldn't post but some of you guys are really clueless. I would like to thank the ones who say their piece without belittling anyone.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Mark1976 said:


> I guess the no response answers my question! .


You actually posted this 15min after posting your question. Lol


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

okarcher said:


> Lets make something clear k50 wasn't asking for pro contingency just asking for some bow companies who where paying other non-pro classes contingency to add k50 to their contingency payouts. We were a semi-pro class paying higher entries than anyone except for pro's and semi and had practically no companies offering contingency in it. Thank goodness a few has stepped up and added us to their list. So wanting something for nothing is a big load of BS! When your a semi pro class with several pro class shooters in it and not even getting what several of the other amateur classes were getting in contingency, we where just looking for a little recognition. Trust me most of us put in a lot of time traveling to practice and shoot and many of us still work on judging for the times when we shoot tournaments that dont have known classes. Many of us at one time where very competitive shooters in unknown classes and would still be if aloud to move down, just not at the pro level. We choose to shoot K50 cause we enjoy the fact it's a true shooting competition. Most who have posted on here have no clue how tough the competition in the class really is without shooting it. Most of us understand the pro's get what they get because its earned. Most of us where just looking to at least get some of the same respect other amateur classes where getting. Any of you guys who want something for nothing or a easy win just jump on over and shoot K50 with us and see how that works out for you. Nobody ask for something for nothing, that is the biggest load so tired of keyboard jockeys running their chops without knowing all the details. If you choose to shoot unknown great that's why it is there, but don't mouth others about their choice. Pretty much if you don't shoot pro or K50 you don't have a dog in this conversation any ways. And just to be clear most of us wasn't asking for what the Pro's have or thought we deserved it. I normally wouldn't post but some of you guys are really clueless. I would like to thank the ones who say their piece without belittling anyone.


Well very said. I'm glad to shoot in the k50 class. It has a great group of guys that are awesome shots and awesome to be around.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

okarcher said:


> Lets make something clear k50 wasn't asking for pro contingency just asking for some bow companies who where paying other non-pro classes contingency to add k50 to their contingency payouts. We were a semi-pro class paying higher entries than anyone except for pro's and semi and had practically no companies offering contingency in it. Thank goodness a few has stepped up and added us to their list. So wanting something for nothing is a big load of BS! When your a semi pro class with several pro class shooters in it and not even getting what several of the other amateur classes were getting in contingency, we where just looking for a little recognition. Trust me most of us put in a lot of time traveling to practice and shoot and many of us still work on judging for the times when we shoot tournaments that dont have known classes. Many of us at one time where very competitive shooters in unknown classes and would still be if aloud to move down, just not at the pro level. We choose to shoot K50 cause we enjoy the fact it's a true shooting competition. Most who have posted on here have no clue how tough the competition in the class really is without shooting it. Most of us understand the pro's get what they get because its earned. Most of us where just looking to at least get some of the same respect other amateur classes where getting. Any of you guys who want something for nothing or a easy win just jump on over and shoot K50 with us and see how that works out for you. Nobody ask for something for nothing, that is the biggest load so tired of keyboard jockeys running their chops without knowing all the details. If you choose to shoot unknown great that's why it is there, but don't mouth others about their choice. Pretty much if you don't shoot pro or K50 you don't have a dog in this conversation any ways. And just to be clear most of us wasn't asking for what the Pro's have or thought we deserved it. I normally wouldn't post but some of you guys are really clueless. I would like to thank the ones who say their piece without belittling anyone.


Finally some one with a brain,well said talking about blown out of control.I was at the meeting and your dead on.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I had at one time made up my mind to just let this go and quit worrying about it, but I am just tired of all the things that are being said over and over again, that simply aren't true! The guys in K50 need to keep setting the record straight and speak up! I for one am not going to let a class be destroyed or smeared by people that have no clue as to what they are talking about, or choose to listen to people that have their own agenda! Thank you OKARCHER for stepping up!!! Others need to just leave it alone and let it go!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Mark1976 said:


> I had at one time made up my mind to just let this go and quit worrying about it, but I am just tired of all the things that are being said over and over again, that simply aren't true! The guys in K50 need to keep setting the record straight and speak up! I for one am not going to let a class be destroyed or smeared by people that have no clue as to what they are talking about, or choose to listen to people that have their own agenda! Thank you OKARCHER for stepping up!!! Others need to just leave it alone and let it go!


I must be missing something. This thread hasn't been about K50 in quite some time.... it has been about pros and BJ for a while.

okarcher fielded any remaining k50 stuff very well. If I were you, I'd let it go. Nothing meaningful will be decided, or influenced by the conversation on AT.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

As usual Morelli you are missing something! Lol if you look at the post just prior to my original one it is the same crap I have read and listened to for 2-3weeks! And "unless I am missing something" your name just so happens to appear on every post in regards to K50, or the pros, and you shoot neither class! But you always seem to voice your opinions or what you seem to think would fix things! If nothing will get fixed on here, I am really confused as to what you do on here all the time??? Your a funny guy!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Mark1976 said:


> As usual Morelli you are missing something! Lol if you look at the post just prior to my original one it is the same crap I have read and listened to for 2-3weeks! And "unless I am missing something" your name just so happens to appear on every post in regards to K50, or the pros, and you shoot neither class! But you always seem to voice your opinions or what you seem to think would fix things! If nothing will get fixed on here, I am really confused as to what you do on here all the time??? Your a funny guy!


I didn't look hard enough for the 'cause of your butthurt, or maybe I blew it off as useless AT banter like I was advising you to do, regardless, for that I apologize.

But, since you made it personal, I comment on most 3d threads of controversy and interest, as do most AT regulars who shoot 3d. The k50 threads are of interest to me since I used to shoot k50 and chose not to continue partially because I didn't want to be part of this very thing...and instead chose to make whatever sacrifice was needed to learn to play this game at the highest level.

I do know one important part of how to fix things. I tried to point it out politely But it only drew more lip from you. If you'd brought some of those "logical statements" with you to the Bowjunky meltdown/k50 meeting, you might not still be here on AT defending your class. The sooner you realize that you make things worse for k50 every time you pipe up, the better you and your class will be.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> I didn't look hard enough for the 'cause of your butthurt, or maybe I blew it off as useless AT banter like I was advising you to do, regardless, for that I apologize.
> 
> But, since you made it personal, I comment on most 3d threads of controversy and interest, as do most AT regulars who shoot 3d. The k50 threads are of interest to me since I used to shoot k50 and chose not to continue partially because I didn't want to be part of this very thing...and instead chose to make whatever sacrifice was needed to learn to play this game at the highest level.
> 
> I do know one important part of how to fix things. I tried to point it out politely But it only drew more lip from you. If you'd brought some of those "logical statements" with you to the Bowjunky meltdown/k50 meeting, you might not still be here on AT defending your class. The sooner you realize that you make things worse for k50 every time you pipe up, the better you and your class will be.


Wasn't it pointed out by several folks who were at the meeting that the K50 guys wanted more money to play for but didn't want to pay a higher entry fee? Or am I mistaken? Weren't you at that meeting tony?


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I didn't make anything personal Toni! You alway "pipe up" with your thoughts and when someone points out the fact "you" are the one that gets butthurt! I didn't stand a chance at that meeting and you know it! Peoples minds were made up of how they wanted that meeting to go and what they wanted to get from it! You seem as always, to only think what it is that you have to say is important! If I had a dime for every time you opened your mouth and talked circles, I could pay the K50 class myself 10,000$ per shoot! I could care less if you think I am wrong and that "i" am the one hurting the k50 class! I will always stand up and tell someone like yourself when you are dead wrong! Even though I have always thought that your ego was way out there and you were full of s**t most of the time, I have always been courteous and polite to you and congratulated you on your performances! You on the other hand have always just been a instigator and are always out to make yourself look good to whomever might be listening! I see right through people like you Toni and that's what bothers you. You only like the people that think your really somebody. It's you and the rest of the trash talkers that really need to shut up! And you don't fool me for a second as to why you left K50, but you make people believe what you want! I do thank you for pointing out what I originally thought about you in the first place! Best of luck to ya!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

robbyreneeward said:


> Wasn't it pointed out by several folks who were at the meeting that the K50 guys wanted more money to play for but didn't want to pay a higher entry fee? Or am I mistaken? Weren't you at that meeting tony?


I was there. Mark1976 was the k50 spokesperson there. 

I'm not sure there was a unified message or plan voiced from/within k50.


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> I was there. Mark1976 was the k50 spokesperson there.
> 
> I'm not sure there was a unified message or plan voiced from/within k50.


Ok gotcha. So mark can you elaborate as to the message the K50 guys wanted to convey to Mike?


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

And don't pay attention to what some say was pointed out at the meeting! They have their own reasons for stating incorrect information! I counted 18+ from the K50 class at that meeting. 12 of them raised their hands when I asked the question of who was willing to pay pro certification and 275$ entry fee! There are definitely guys in the current k50 class that want nothing to do with any of this and like the class just the way it is! They could care less about K50 becoming a pro class. They do not want to pay higher fees and aren't asking for more if any money at all! The majority of that class is fine with just letting the manufactures and Mike Tyrell determine if anything should happen! Everyone stated that the K50 class was ridiculous about not doing anything to promote itself or talk to ASA and the manufactures about becoming a pro class and figuring out what K50 guys wanted! So we decided to talk about it and find out what the guys in that class really wanted, good or bad. It was to be among us, but then everyone piped up and started having a fit that we were doing exactly what everyone said we should do, and started turning this whole thing into a huge fight among god knows who! Most of the people that are going off about "wanting something for nothing", "they are changing and ruining the sport we love", "they don't want to pay to play", "they don't even get along with each other", and all this other BS, are people that either want to see unknown stay the pinnacle of the ASA, they don't shoot ASA at all, listen to other people who are wrong, or just flat want to start controversy! But when a guy steps up in the K50 class and says, no, you are wrong, that makes him a loud mouth and means he is getting personal?!?! Ask yourself one question...why do you think that the guys in one stinking class,(K50)talking about anything would cause such a commotion and all this up rise! Especially when 99% of us have never even talked to Mike
tyrell about any of it, or the manufacturers! Just the thought of K50 getting anything or even talking about it caused all of this! Does that make any sense! Get real people!!!


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Mark1976 said:


> And don't pay attention to what some say was pointed out at the meeting! They have their own reasons for stating incorrect information! I counted 18+ from the K50 class at that meeting. 12 of them raised their hands when I asked the question of who was willing to pay pro certification and 275$ entry fee! There are definitely guys in the current k50 class that want nothing to do with any of this and like the class just the way it is! They could care less about K50 becoming a pro class. They do not want to pay higher fees and aren't asking for more if any money at all! The majority of that class is fine with just letting the manufactures and Mike Tyrell determine if anything should happen! Everyone stated that the K50 class was ridiculous about not doing anything to promote itself or talk to ASA and the manufactures about becoming a pro class and figuring out what K50 guys wanted! So we decided to talk about it and find out what the guys in that class really wanted, good or bad. It was to be among us, but then everyone piped up and started having a fit that we were doing exactly what everyone said we should do, and started turning this whole thing into a huge fight among god knows who! Most of the people that are going off about "wanting something for nothing", "they are changing and ruining the sport we love", "they don't want to pay to play", "they don't even get along with each other", and all this other BS, are people that either want to see unknown stay the pinnacle of the ASA, they don't shoot ASA at all, listen to other people who are wrong, or just flat want to start controversy! But when a guy steps up in the K50 class and says, no, you are wrong, that makes him a loud mouth and means he is getting personal?!?! Ask yourself one question...why do you think that the guys in one stinking class,(K50)talking about anything would cause such a commotion and all this up rise! Especially when 99% of us have never even talked to Mike
> tyrell about any of it, or the manufacturers! Just the thought of K50 getting anything or even talking about it caused all of this! Does that make any sense! Get real people!!!


So Mike wasn't at the meeting? I thought the ASA itself was who called the meeting in the beginning


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Oh, and to set the record straight. Mike Tyrell was not asked to attend the meeting in Kentucky! It was suppose to be for anyone shooting K50...just to talk and see what the majority wanted to do.
If it was have spokesman elected, ask manufactures for more contingency, if we wanted the K50 class to become a pro class, who was willing to do it if it was and who would be willing to pay higher fees for it, or just leave it and see where it went on it's own! Jason Corley decided to make it open to the public. It turned out to be a joke and everyone else got to voice their opinion about things that didn't pertain to them! Then they all ran back to their keyboards and started the BS you see here!


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Mark1976 said:


> Oh, and to set the record straight. Mike Tyrell was not asked to attend the meeting in Kentucky! It was suppose to be for anyone shooting K50...just to talk and see what the majority wanted to do.
> If it was have spokesman elected, ask manufactures for more contingency, if we wanted the K50 class to become a pro class, who was willing to do it if it was and who would be willing to pay higher fees for it, or just leave it and see where it went on it's own! Jason Corley decided to make it open to the public. It turned out to be a joke and everyone else got to voice their opinion about things that didn't pertain to them! Then they all ran back to their keyboards and started the BS you see here!


Well thanks for the clarification. So...if I may dare to ask....what WAS the decision made by the majority of K50 shooters?

You seem to have your finger on the pulse, so set the record straight for us and end all of this speculation.

Thanks


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Mark1976 said:


> I didn't make anything personal Toni! You alway "pipe up" with your thoughts and when someone points out the fact "you" are the one that gets butthurt! I didn't stand a chance at that meeting and you know it! Peoples minds were made up of how they wanted that meeting to go and what they wanted to get from it! You seem as always, to only think what it is that you have to say is important! If I had a dime for every time you opened your mouth and talked circles, I could pay the K50 class myself 10,000$ per shoot! I could care less if you think I am wrong and that "i" am the one hurting the k50 class! I will always stand up and tell someone like yourself when you are dead wrong! Even though I have always thought that your ego was way out there and you were full of s**t most of the time, I have always been courteous and polite to you and congratulated you on your performances! You on the other hand have always just been a instigator and are always out to make yourself look good to whomever might be listening! I see right through people like you Toni and that's what bothers you. You only like the people that think your really somebody. It's you and the rest of the trash talkers that really need to shut up! And you don't fool me for a second as to why you left K50, but you make people believe what you want! I do thank you for pointing out what I originally thought about you in the first place! Best of luck to ya!


I've yet to get butthurt. None of what you have to say surprises me, or impacts me, coming from you. I'd hate to ever wake up and give a damn what you think. 

Keep on with what you're doing. Seems to be going great for you.


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## Dan-0 (Dec 4, 2007)

I've followed this closely, and I never once thought this was about the current K50 shooters wanting something for nothing, or even more than they currently have. I've seen a few nasty comments about the K50 class, but I view that as just boorish AT behavior by people not close to the issue assuming that's what it's about, even though those of us that know the 3d game know it's not. 

I saw it as a movement by a non-shooter to have a Known Pro class created, to eventually overtake Unknown, but in reality, the ASA has proven they can co-exist very successfully. 

I saw the push back from a few elite unknown shooters, support from a few of the spot pro's, and the majority seemed indifferent. 

I like the known yardage game, because I don't have the time to practice judging yardage, and practicing judging yardage is not as fun as shooting my bow, so when given a choice, I shoot, and I don't walk around with a rangefinder. I wish I had the time to do that. I don't.

But at the same time I don't see Unknown Open Pro going anywhere, and it's impressive what those guys can do, but I do see people like me continuing to flock to Known 3d.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I can't speak for all in K50, but I believe that most are ok with just letting the class mature with a little more time and let the manufacturers decide what is best for them and their money! From what Mike Tyrell has stated in the past, "he doesn't care what are class is called"! He has said in the past it really comes down to manufacturers and contingency money as to what dictates a "pro" class and what guys are willing to pay to shoot that class. The class in general has no intentions to steal any thunder from the Open Pros or take their money! we couldn't do that even if we wanted to...that is up to the manufacturers, not us! Either way, if a known pro class is implemented, or I believe when, there are still a lot of questions that have to be answered for it to work or to let guys know what will become of the guys that choose not to participate in it that currently shoot K50. I don't think that anyone, including myself believes that the class should get paid as much or more than the Open Pro currently gets, since we honestly are only playing half the game as it is set right now! Now, in the future the ASA decides to move more to the known side of things (which only the can decide), then maybe it will be viewed different. Just keep in mind, the manufacturers and ASA will be the ones who dictate any of this. So for now, we just shoot and wait! Hopefully the ones that keep stirring the pot don't ruin it for everyone. Time will tell!!!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

okarcher said:


> Lets make something clear k50 wasn't asking for pro contingency just asking for some bow companies who where paying other non-pro classes contingency to add k50 to their contingency payouts. We were a semi-pro class paying higher entries than anyone except for pro's and semi and had practically no companies offering contingency in it. Thank goodness a few has stepped up and added us to their list. So wanting something for nothing is a big load of BS! When your a semi pro class with several pro class shooters in it and not even getting what several of the other amateur classes were getting in contingency, we where just looking for a little recognition. Trust me most of us put in a lot of time traveling to practice and shoot and many of us still work on judging for the times when we shoot tournaments that dont have known classes. Many of us at one time where very competitive shooters in unknown classes and would still be if aloud to move down, just not at the pro level. We choose to shoot K50 cause we enjoy the fact it's a true shooting competition. Most who have posted on here have no clue how tough the competition in the class really is without shooting it. Most of us understand the pro's get what they get because its earned. Most of us where just looking to at least get some of the same respect other amateur classes where getting. Any of you guys who want something for nothing or a easy win just jump on over and shoot K50 with us and see how that works out for you. Nobody ask for something for nothing, that is the biggest load so tired of keyboard jockeys running their chops without knowing all the details. If you choose to shoot unknown great that's why it is there, but don't mouth others about their choice. Pretty much if you don't shoot pro or K50 you don't have a dog in this conversation any ways. And just to be clear most of us wasn't asking for what the Pro's have or thought we deserved it. I normally wouldn't post but some of you guys are really clueless. I would like to thank the ones who say their piece without belittling anyone.


I disagree. Anyone that is a member of ASA that _may_ be impacted by any changes in classes has a right to speak up. For example, the guys in K45 that will "win out" of K45 have a vested interest in what classes are made available to them in the near future. That could include those currently in Open B. People can get focused on their personal interests while ignoring a large number of their fellow ASA members and ignoring all that the ASA must collectively manage. Let us not forget that K45 is a VERY popular class and was long before K50 started drawing a decent number. It's _NOT_ just about current K50 archers and current Pro's! 

K50 is a labeled a semi-pro that is now drawing a decent number of high quality archers. At some point the class probably should receive similar support from sponsors and such that the unknown distance Semi-Pro class does. Do they deserve more? No, not unless the class is of more value to a sponsor than another class. I think artificially inflating the "value" of one class would be detrimental to another class because I don't unending pot of money to distribute. Should K50 get less than Semi-Pro? If it is of less "value" to those that provide the money then the answer is yes. 

So, is K50 at the same level as the Semi-Pro or Open A class? I intentionally did not include the Pro class in the question since at this point and time it it shouldn't even be considered.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> I disagree. Anyone that is a member of ASA that _may_ be impacted by any changes in classes has a right to speak up. For example, the guys in K45 that will "win out" of K45 have a vested interest in what classes are made available to them in the near future. That could include those currently in Open B. People can get focused on their personal interests while ignoring a large number of their fellow ASA members and ignoring all that the ASA must collectively manage. Let us not forget that K45 is a VERY popular class and was long before K50 started drawing a decent number. It's _NOT_ just about current K50 archers and current Pro's!
> 
> K50 is a labeled a semi-pro that is now drawing a decent number of high quality archers. At some point the class probably should receive similar support from sponsors and such that the unknown distance Semi-Pro class does. Do they deserve more? No, not unless the class is of more value to a sponsor than another class. I think artificially inflating the "value" of one class would be detrimental to another class because I don't unending pot of money to distribute. Should K50 get less than Semi-Pro? If it is of less "value" to those that provide the money then the answer is yes.
> 
> So, is K50 at the same level as the Semi-Pro or Open A class? I intentionally did not include the Pro class in the question since at this point and time it it shouldn't even be considered.


I agree Kent, as a lifetime member of the ASA I do have a voice.....at this point it is all about what is best for the organization, not just for 1 specific class (or 2 classes).

Does anyone know what companies offer contingency in Semi pro, and what those contingency amounts are?


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

reylamb said:


> I agree Kent, as a lifetime member of the ASA I do have a voice.....at this point it is all about what is best for the organization, not just for 1 specific class (or 2 classes).
> 
> Does anyone know what companies offer contingency in Semi pro, and what those contingency amounts are?


If I remember correctly I believe Mathews pays $1000 for winning that class?? I could be wrong though. And I believe elite does as well. Other Han that I'm not sure


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

reylamb said:


> I agree Kent, as a lifetime member of the ASA I do have a voice.....at this point it is all about what is best for the organization, not just for 1 specific class (or 2 classes).
> 
> Does anyone know what companies offer contingency in Semi pro, and what those contingency amounts are?


Semi pro- elite, prime @ $1k. Mathews at $500..... I think New Breed pays something?

K50- elite, prime, hoyt at $1k. PSE pays next year. Amount TBD. New Breed also pays but again, I don't know how much.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

All of these points are good and were discussed! Your 100% correct in saying that it's not all about 1 class! Many of us have talked about these exact issues. 1- what would happen to guys who win out of k45? 2- what class would the guys that are currently shooting k50 that decide they don't want to shoot or pay the extra fees in a known pro class? 3- would the numbers continue to grow if it went pro or would it kill it and make it all for nothing? Wether you guys believe it or not, most if not all the guys in the k50 class care about more than just themselves! Some might be really going for something personal, but not many! But, keep in mind...exactly what you said, "it should be about more than just 1 class" everyone has a voice that shoots ASA!!! Everyone needs to keep that in mind and think about it. That's the whole reason we decided to just let it go with the way it is and let K50 continue to grow and let Mike and the manufacturers keep an eye on it and see what, if anything, in the future should be done! There are a lot of questions that remain unanswered that need clarification before people could jump on board with a known pro class in my opinion!


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## Wesley (Apr 11, 2004)

I was at the meeting in London nothing at all was accomplished, K50 has taken off the last year or so but people seem to forget when it was first introduced it has $200 or $225 entry fee and Mckenzie paid 1k to the winner and it barely had 12 people most of the first year. When it was dropped to $125 entry fee it started to get more shooters I can remeber not to long ago when K50 only averaged 25 shooters. The problem I see is if your raise the entry fee to $275 and $100 pro cert your going to loose people the question is how many? It also creates the problem of bumping k45 to known pro that will not work. So now you have to create another class to take k50's spot that you made into known pro. My guess is from what I seen at the meeting in London only about 12 people raised there hands that they were interested in paying the higher fees. So now what your going to have is a k50 with 20-30 shooters and a known Pro with let's say 20-30 shooters what have you really accomplished nothing you've split your current numbers into two groups. K50 is getting the contiengcy money now at its current level there more company's backing it then semi-pro. Me personally I could care less What happens it doesn't effect me being in semi. It will be interesting to see if this is brought up at the Asa directors meeting at the classic. There just needs to be more thought put into of what all it will effect and before any bashes me yes I have shot K50 one time I'm not for or against it. I do know all of the bickering about it is not going to help anyone get anything accomplished


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## [email protected] (May 10, 2012)

I've only competed at one ASA event and don't have any knowledge of what it takes to add another class. I wouldn't know if space and time would allow it but, maybe consider making Known Pro 60yd Max. Then, K45 would still have a place to go and folks not wanting to pay pro fees could stay in K50.


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## Bowtech11 (Mar 21, 2006)

Why K50, why not K70 or 80. Then I would be interested in watching them shootdown. Then it would be a Pro type class. Comparing K50 to the Open Pro at the same yardage is crazy. Like I have said before to shoot a 14 at 42 yards judging distance is not the same as shooting a 14 knowing the distance. Put a Coyote at 60 yards and say have at it guys would be fun to watch. Yea set the yardage to 70, open up the 14 and let the fun begin


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Bowtech11 said:


> Why K50, why not K70 or 80. Then I would be interested in watching them shootdown. Then it would be a Pro type class. Comparing K50 to the Open Pro at the same yardage is crazy. Like I have said before to shoot a 14 at 42 yards judging distance is not the same as shooting a 14 knowing the distance. Put a Coyote at 60 yards and say have at it guys would be fun to watch. Yea set the yardage to 70, open up the 14 and let the fun begin


Would be cool to watch. Would be awesome to see a 68 yard javelina


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## Bowtech11 (Mar 21, 2006)

I think this would bring out the people to see them shoot, they cannot shoot the same distance as the Open Pros. I know that I watch the pros shootdown because shooting at a 14 on unknown is awesome pressure. A lot of money on the line and to take that risk/reward gamble that is what it is about. Love to see the known shoot a small target in the Texas wind at 70 yards, oh yea that would be interesting lol


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Bowtech11 said:


> Why K50, why not K70 or 80. Then I would be interested in watching them shootdown. Then it would be a Pro type class. Comparing K50 to the Open Pro at the same yardage is crazy. Like I have said before to shoot a 14 at 42 yards judging distance is not the same as shooting a 14 knowing the distance. Put a Coyote at 60 yards and say have at it guys would be fun to watch. Yea set the yardage to 70, open up the 14 and let the fun begin


Couldn't agree more! Most of us have said this. That will be a decision ASA would have to make and wether or not
Their current venues could do something out to those distances. I and quite a few others would love something like that.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Bowtech11 said:


> I think this would bring out the people to see them shoot, they cannot shoot the same distance as the Open Pros. I know that I watch the pros shootdown because shooting at a 14 on unknown is awesome pressure. A lot of money on the line and to take that risk/reward gamble that is what it is about. Love to see the known shoot a small target in the Texas wind at 70 yards, oh yea that would be interesting lol


Something to consider! One thing that has changed in 3D archery is better equipment but the thing that had not changed is the distance. Maybe the Orgs need to rethink the yardages in some classes increasing them. Just like golf players got stronger clubs and balls got better so they started adding length to the courses to keep the scores down and more competitive. Maybe K80 and Open Pro 70?


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Could someone point out where I can find an explanation of the classes being discussed here? Being on the left coast, we done have any ASA events. I understand that the "K" stands for Known distance...but what does the designation 50, or 45 mean??? Age? Sorry for my ignorance, but I've looked on the ASA site and found nothing, and don't have the time to sift through 22 pages of this thread...
TIA


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## fountain (Jan 10, 2009)

the 45 and 50 are yardages


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

fountain said:


> the 45 and 50 are yardages


So, are all the targets at 45 or 50 yards, or is that a maximum? 3D's out here are all over the place as far as distance goes.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

1955 said:


> So, are all the targets at 45 or 50 yards, or is that a maximum? 3D's out here are all over the place as far as distance goes.


Max.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

If it's known 50, all targets should be at 50 yards. lain:


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> Max.





sagecreek said:


> If it's known 50, all targets should be at 50 yards. lain:


Now that's a bit confusing...

I appreciate the clarification, not that it really matters, as I'll never shoot an ASA event. I just wanted to understand your classifications... Thanks.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

1955 said:


> Now that's a bit confusing...
> 
> I appreciate the clarification, not that it really matters, as I'll never shoot an ASA event. I just wanted to understand your classifications... Thanks.


It is 50 yard max.

Ole Sage is saying that if the class is known 50 all targets should be 50......just his opinion of course.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yeah, I was just kidding around. Trying to be funny. Trying is the key word.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

You know, I have to get something off of my chest. As a range owner, I always take a bit of pride in creating some deceptive shots that are challenging and may be hard to judge at times. A friend and I were out setting the range the other evening, and I was spotting the target from the back stake for him, and said that looks good. So we set it and when he got back to the trail, we were talking about how far we each thought it was. We were usually off 2 or 3 yards from each other. Then I told him, what difference does it really matter any more, just click it and shoot it. lain:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

cenochs said:


> Something to consider! One thing that has changed in 3D archery is better equipment but the thing that had not changed is the distance. Maybe the Orgs need to rethink the yardages in some classes increasing them. Just like golf players got stronger clubs and balls got better so they started adding length to the courses to keep the scores down and more competitive. Maybe K80 and Open Pro 70?


At least a couple of the locations could not handle the extra yardage very safely.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

reylamb said:


> It is 50 yard max.
> 
> Ole Sage is saying that if the class is known 50 all targets should be 50......just his opinion of course.


Thanks!


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## lunk2002 (Jul 22, 2006)

Interesting


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