# Beware of "Natural Archer" Bowyers



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Too bad. I sure hate this happened to you. 

I don't know abut Canada, but here in the states you could contact the Consumer Protection Division of the Office of the Attorney General of the state in which a business operates. They will take of this kind of thing, usually in short order.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Thank you very much for the heads up. I will keep that in mind later when in a position to order a traditional style Scandinavian bow I'd like to have. (I know the name, but I'd butcher the spelling if I tried.) I hate that it happened to you, but thank you for trying to see I didn't happen to someone else. Hoping you have better luck from here on out, sir.


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

Wow. They should have taken the bow back because they didn't build anything that was agreed upon. Sorry you ran into such a poorly run business. Thanks, for the heads up.


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## bowyer-man (Apr 5, 2016)

Dear Amy.

The bow you ordered was a discount yew longbow with horn nocks. We did not agree to carve a cross into the bow, it wasn't what you paid for that request came after the order, and it was not something I was comfortable with doing, carving a cross in a bow sounds like a recipe for disappointment for us, nobody here is an artist, so we didn't agree to that request, also it was a request after the fact. That is why I said no to that and that is why I suggested you may want to draw one yourself. I am sorry but we aren't graphic designs, we are bow makers. I am sorry I but i never agreed to it, I don't carve anything in a yew longbow as these bend thew the handle, I know some people do inlay or make markings in longbows but not us, just something we aren't comfortable with, and as a discounted yew longbow we don't offer extra service like that, especially not when requested after an order is ready.

Please let it be know we have made hundreds of bows and have dozens in European collections, and they have passed the scrutiny of being Authentic with British Archers as well as collectors the world over. I am sorry this wasn't the most pleasant experience for either of us.


-That is in fact a bow stringer you got, it slips over one end of one nock.
- We forgot the extra string so we connected you directly to our string maker, who makes awesome strings for us, so you could get a custom string with what ever colours you wanted, we paid for this extra string. I don't see the problem with this, we are only human and said sorry for forgetting the extra string.
- You had the bow a good while and were using it. That is the only way we make horn nocks, they work and are very similar to any other black horn nocks 
- That is yew longbow, discounted priced, normally our re-enactment bows are mistake bows for people that want to put them up on the wall, you did get a functional one, and were using it. 
- It is confusing to us what you mean by a mary rose bow as those bows were 100+ pounds, and varied from bow to just like the yew wood does. We make custom character yew longbows, and every attempt to make them "authentic" as possible and I am sorry if it doesn't hold up to your idea from school about what is an authentic english bow, but that is it! Every bow maker has slight style differences, and bows were of course varied from bow to bow even in England. 1st of all and authentic english war bow would have been at least 3x the draw weight of that bow, that is an authentic english target style bow made in a traditional manner similar to a war bow but it can't be as thick of course or it would be very heavy.
- You said the handle was to big for you, as a younger women i told you you could sand some wood off of the handle area to make it fit your hand better. It isn't a bad solution really, as you were using the bow.

We have sold hundreds possibly thousands of bows and dozens are in collections all over Europe including England. We sell these discounted bows that most times are not shootable as examples of bows or for special events where they need a light bow. I am sorry we couldn't carve a cross in the bow for you, it's just not our style, and that was asked after you ordered.

You have quotations that quote me that we did not find in our conversation records at all ! “indeed make sure the bow handle area is as your request, as you know this is traditional.” I did not write that. Absolutely not ! And how did you talk to me if this was a present ? I am sorry but do you realize how hard it is to have a reputation as a bow maker and how hard we work to maintain a good name. Please consider that.

I offered you to swap bows but I we cannot after the order is taken, agree to become graphic designers, and that is a bow stringer, a free bow stringer that we threw in even though we don't usually do that for discounted bows. There was nothing else to do about he missing string but to pay for you to have a new one, and offer you custom colours. I think you are being totally unfair to us you have no idea how much love and attention goes into our bows.


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## bowtech2006 (Apr 1, 2006)

bowyer-man said:


> Dear Amy.
> 
> The bow you ordered was a discount yew longbow with horn nocks. We did not agree to carve a cross into the bow, it wasn't what you paid for that request came after the order, and it was not something I was comfortable with doing, carving a cross in a bow sounds like a recipe for disappointment for us, nobody here is an artist, so we didn't agree to that request, also it was a request after the fact. That is why I said no to that and that is why I suggested you may want to draw one yourself. I am sorry but we aren't graphic designs, we are bow makers.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear other side, but what about draw weight he wanted? I'm sure that was ordered at the time it was placed? If you couldn't do the draw weight then you shouldn't of sent the bow.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

bowtech2006 said:


> Glad to hear other side, but what about draw weight he wanted? I'm sure that was ordered at the time it was placed? If you couldn't do the draw weight then you shouldn't of sent the bow.


I imagine to make anything close to an authentic looking English Warbow would be impossible to make at that draw weight.

Looking at the website they have a reenactment bows and a Pacific Yew Longbow, the reenactment bow is a Flatbow which starts $100, if that's what you ordered then you're going to get a Flatbow if you ordered the $700 Yew bow then you would I hope have what's shown on the webpage, maybe post a picture of the bow and tell us exactly what you ordered.



If you want a Warbow I suggest Pip Bickerstaffe in the UK, he is one of the best.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Was the bow ordered a reenactment bow "starting at $100" and "not made to be used seriously", as the website says? To be fair to everyone, I think the actual product ordered from the website needs to be clarified.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

bowyer-man said:


> Dear Amy.
> 
> The bow you ordered was a discount yew longbow with horn nocks.


This is all over a discount model, that's been hand crafted from authentic yew? 

How much did you pay?


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

Crickets. Always two sides to every story. Glad the bowyer came forward. Would now like to hear from the OP.


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## JasonJ (Feb 10, 2016)

Would be good to have a picture of what was ordered, vs what was sent and arrived to the OP as well. Clearly there is some confusion or disagreement over what constitutes an "authentic" yew warbow, or at least one made in an "authentic style".


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## bowyer-man (Apr 5, 2016)

I am not much for these type of forums where a bunch of strangers chime in. I have contacted amy and told her about a replacement i have had here ready for her from the time I got the original complaint. I am sorry I don't have time to be on the internet justifying myself to strangers I hope you understand I have some new staves i have to split today and put glue on the ends, a bow to finish, a quiver to ship.. Thanks to friends who have alerted me to this post, I would hope it is removed by Amy after she gets her new bow.


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## bowyer-man (Apr 5, 2016)

For the record it was only discounted on account of it being a longer bow over 72" that we usually charge more for as the staves are worth more as they get over 76", typically we charge $1000 for a war bow, due to the better/longer staves needed. As for me I am going to log out of here for good, I haven't been participating in these kind of things on the internet, and not about to start.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

bowyer-man said:


> For the record it was only discounted on account of it being a longer bow over 72" that we usually charge more for as the staves are worth more as they get over 76", typically we charge $1000 for a war bow, due to the better/longer staves needed. As for me I am going to log out of here for good, I haven't been participating in these kind of things on the internet, and not about to start.




He does realize he came off as snippy to potential customers, right? I'm not sure I really liked the fact that he used the given name either.


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## JasonJ (Feb 10, 2016)

Halfcawkt said:


> He does realize he came off as snippy to potential customers, right? I'm not sure I really liked the fact that he used the given name either.


Also, these forums can be a great source of new customers. Totally his choice to participate or not, despite the drama that sometimes occurs on forums; however there is potential business here as well.


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## k222 (Jan 16, 2015)

bowyer-man said:


> Thanks to friends who have alerted me to this post


Perhaps these friends would be willing to attest they are owners and repeat customers?

Customer service isn't sole measure of quality.

Out of hundred and thousands of bows sold, one would expect at least a dozen satisfied customer eager to share their enthusiasm.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

k222 said:


> Perhaps these friends would be willing to attest they are owners and repeat customers?
> 
> Customer service isn't sole measure of quality.
> 
> Out of hundred and thousands of bows sold, one would expect at least a dozen satisfied customer eager to share their enthusiasm.


That's a great point.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

bowyer-man said:


> I am not much for these type of forums where a bunch of strangers chime in.


I have no dog in this fight.
But you not only posted this to a public forum, but the leading archery forum out there...and then you weren't expecting the public to chime in?
Hmm...


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Don't even remember anyone going at him. Why would he think we wouldn't have questions about this if we were in the market for his services? The sale aside, I don't want to do business with a place that hold prime potential customers in such contemp as he displayed. I may have said that wrong, but you mean what I know.


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't really see how the bowyer came off snippy??? He only came on here to give his side of the story... It sounds like he is trying to make it right and has been since the first complaint. If the OP can come on here and slag the bowyer, why can't the bowyer come on and give his side? He was speaking of the OP and used the first name... Not the full name. I don't have a problem with that. It sounds to me more like it was an uninformed order. Unfortunate but the bowyer offered a replacement?

Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

bowyer-man said:


> For the record it was only discounted on account of it being a longer bow over 72" that we usually charge more for as the staves are worth more as they get over 76", typically we charge $1000 for a war bow, due to the better/longer staves needed. As for me I am going to log out of here for good, I haven't been participating in these kind of things on the internet, and not about to start.


This last line of this post and the end of his post prior to this one are what I'm talking about when I say I feel he is snippy. Keegan is very active here, and he's very helpful to the point he's one of us. Due to that we should feel obligated to support him, and many of us do. This guys attitude was the opposite of all of that. I didn't hold the "conflict" of the sale, or his explanation of it against him at all. I do feel he has the right to tell his side, and I'm glad he did.


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## Scarlok (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks to everyone who posted. (And thanks to steve morley for the recommendation.) I wasn’t expecting to get this many responses. In answer to those who are curious, the bow I ordered was the English Style Yew Longbow. Normally it sells for $700, but when I bought mine it was on sale for $580. It was supposed to be functional: 30# at 32”, which was specified in the order, as well as in three e-mails and a phone conversation in the two weeks prior to that order.

I also wanted to clarify some points brought up by Natural Archer’s above response, hopefully without repeating myself. I still have all of the e-mails I received from them. Any quotes I included in the original post were copied and pasted directly from those.

I paid for two strings, received one, notified them 22 December, the next day they responded: “I am out of the country for another month so I will have to have some send a string.” On 28 December the story changed to: “I need to know the length of your string when you get it to your brace height and then we can go ahead and order a pro string... that is how it works”. On 5 April Natural Archer finally gave me the contact information for their string maker (again, he was pleasant to work with, and there were no problems whatsoever on his end). I was sent the same type of string as the one that they remembered to include with the bow. For all of March Natural Archer had ignored my e-mails and attempts to contact them through their website. (I actually had to get a friend to contact them, pretending to be a new prospective customer.)

I have not used the bow. With my draw-length being 32”, and two professionals having told me that the bow is not safe past 28”, and possibly not even that far, it would be impossible for me to do so. The draw-weight also prohibits my using the bow. The only time it has been drawn has been by the second professional I consulted (the first did not want to even attempt it), who drew it using equipment, as he did not want to touch it, and measured the true draw-weight.

I requested the cross at the arrow pass right from the first e-mail I sent Natural Archer, when I was querying several bowyers to see who could best provide all of the features I wanted in a custom bow. This query was sent to Natural Archer 7 December. Their English Style Yew Longbow page currently states that they carve artwork into bows, if anyone is interested in looking it up. The order went through on 21 December. The next day Natural Archer e-mailed that: “I can indeed make sure the bow handle area is as you request, as you know this is traditional.” The day after that they said: “I can make the bow as you say, but maybe i will leave the arrow past cross off and you can draw it as you experiment with the bow and decide exactly where the arrow does pass after worked in fully and all that. I can put it in no problem”. I confirmed that I wanted them to carve it. It was left off without further communication, the bow shipping on 15 February, and arriving one week later. There was plenty of time for them to tell me, before I ordered, that there would be no cross – I requested it from the first communication, and multiple times.

The bow was ordered in December 2012, received in February 2013. (If anyone is wondering why I posted this review three years after the fact, I wrote a draft of it at the time as a catharsis for the frustration I was feeling; I came across it in an old computer file and thought some people shopping for custom bows might find it useful.) Natural Archer has posted here on 5 April 2016 that they offered to swap my bow for another one. I did not receive any such offer from them, or even any message from them until the afternoon of 6 April 2016, so you all knew about this offer before I did. Before 6 April 2016, the last time I heard from Natural Archer was on 5 April 2013. Having finally been offered a different yew or hickory bow, I replied to Natural Archer that what I really wanted, as I had said three years ago, was simply a refund. They refused, telling me I was “being unreasonable.” I have responded, making it clear that I am neither accepting or rejecting any offer from them, but saying that the decision about whether or how to make restitution is theirs, not mine. I don’t want to be involved in any PR games; I prefer facts. Their actions can speak for them, whatever they decide.

Hopefully that answers most of the questions raised. I appreciate people taking the time to read this thread, and hope that it provides a fuller picture for anyone shopping around for a custom bow. My experience can't have been the same as every customer's experience with this company. For them to still be in business, there must be people who had positive results. Take what happened in this instance for what it's worth.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

It is not fair to the bowyer to bring this up three years after the fact. The bowyer has a right to respond and that should happen when the issue is fresh and not when you run across the file on your computer years later. Recognize that custom bowyers are small businesses. They have a lot of challenges to deal with and not everyone is going to be happy. But there are two sides to every story and bringing this up years later makes it difficult to get the bowyer's side. The internet makes it far too easy to harm small businesses. You should have decided to go forward with your warning in 2013 or kept it to yourself.


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## k222 (Jan 16, 2015)

There may be a "statute of limitations" on some bad customer experience. But $580 and wrong draw weight seems egregious enough it should be more than 3 years. Call me a bitter old man, but if I spent $580 on a bow so off I would be grumbling for more than 3 years.

A good experience I would share for a long time too. Perhaps a few of Nature Archer ' s hundreds and thousands of satisfied friends and customers will do the same.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Well put Hank. On the other hand, this whole thing is weird. I did not realize earlier that we were talking about something 3 years old. Now I take back my critizism on the bowyer' attitude. I may have reacted far worse to this situation this long after the fact.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

k222 said:


> There may be a "statute of limitations" on some bad customer experience. But $580 and wrong draw weight seems egregious enough it should be more than 3 years. Call me a bitter old man, but if I spent $580 on a bow so off I would be grumbling for more than 3 years.
> 
> A good experience I would share for a long time too. Perhaps a few of Nature Archer ' s hundreds and thousands of satisfied friends and customers will do the same.


The problem is that our ability to vet the complaint was diminished by time, when it did not have to be if the response was timely. She wrote her chronology three years ago. I am sure the bowyer did not do the same thinking that he was going to have to defend himself three years later. The bowyer had to rely on three year old recollections and any physical records he might have kept. If someone had started a post describing a recent issue with the bowyer, then I think it would be appropriate to add past experiences to help establish a recurring behavior. That was not the case here. The internet can make or break businesses. We need to be responsible in how we use it, especially when dealing with the fragile nature of small businesses. They cannot defend themselves like large companies. This is not like leaving a bad review on Yelp. This is the top archery forum in the world.


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## Juneauhunt (Aug 3, 2010)

I'd like to see a pic of a woman drawing a longbow 32". I'm a 6'5" man and don't draw near that.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

32 is a big draw for anyone. I have a 32+ inch draw. I would like to know how the bow was determined unsafe. I have tested many bows. I draw some out to 33 inches on a draw board and shooting machine. There are definitely bows that I will not draw to 32 inches. The question is whether the folks testing the bows had the specific experience necessary to determine whether the bow was safe. That being said, if the weight is too high to pull at 32 inches then it is a moot point.


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

This could have been dealt with properly from the beginning and wasn't... On either parties end. To bring it up 3 years later is just wrong. 

Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


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## k222 (Jan 16, 2015)

You make a good point regarding viability of 3 year old information.

But bowyer's contradictions are as recent as 3 days old.

Bowyer posted 3 days ago he never carves, they don't feel confortable carving, and "we are not graphic designs, we are bow makers."
But their website says they have done and do carve.

http://www.naturalarcher.com/?page_id=53

Honestly carve this and string that, I could care less about. But the contradictions are disturbing. Does any bowyer, custom or otherwise, get draw weight or length so wrong?


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> *This is the top archery forum in the world*.


While the Trad forum is very cool, the numbers of uncool on other forums almost make me feel sorry for the world.


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## futuretrash (Feb 20, 2013)

There's always 2 sides to a dispute.


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## dessrtfox (May 5, 2016)

Alright new user here, created this account just for this. I ordered a "Hickory English-style bow" (220$) and 12 "Welsh Arrows" (130$) from Natural Archer on march 11 of this year. I received the items today, although the original delivery was attempted on the 23rd of April and it took the remaining time to arrange a re-delivery since the local post office is small and frequently overwhelmed. On April 1st the seller responded to an email I sent in which I asked about the status of the items I ordered. "Hello. Yes sorry for the delay. The bow is ready the arrows will ship just behind it. Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the order!". This blatantly slow service is not my primary complaint however, as I fully understand that small businesses of this type can often get backed up. My primary issue is that "Natural Archer" is a scam, in which the seller takes your money ( 387$ in my case) and then buys cheap products off of eBay for a quarter of the price. Essentially you pay him hundreds of dollars to enter your shipping info into an eBay order. This is not speculation, guess-work, or baseless accusations on my part, as both the items were shipped directly from the original eBay sellers, and thus have their information on them. I have been able to locate EXACTLY the products I received; The bow is from KP archery, the 45lb @28 hickory traditional English style longbow, which costs 65$. The arrows are "12Pcs Black&White Fetching Archery Hunting Wood Arrow Longbow Target Practice"(36.79$) This is what it says on the import label and on ebay. Unfortunately, looking at the exact wording on the Natural archer website, I don't think I will be able to claim false advertising as the site is merely implies that the items are made there, and does not state it outright. So spread the word, and hopefully we can keep others from being misled as I was. 

I will post pictures of what I received and of the packing slips along with more information later, but right now I am to tired and angry to do so.

the bow I ordered.
http://www.naturalarcher.com/?page_id=332 
the bow I received. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handcrafted...ongbow-made-of-Hickory-45lbs-28-/252176376840 
the arrows I ordered.
http://www.naturalarcher.com/?page_id=701
the arrows I received.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12Pcs-Black...376703?hash=item3ce5f9947f:g:YWQAAOSwd4tT4fHC 


P.S
If somebody could message KP archery about this that would be great, they seem to have an honest reputation and I am sure they will not be pleased about their products being used this way.


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## dessrtfox (May 5, 2016)

As promised, here are the pictures of the items and their packing labels. If anyone wants to see something not pictured, or clarification about something, I will be more than happy to provide.






Huh, wonder why the label says PRIORITY MAIL 2-DAY when the seller said it was ready three weeks earlier... 







Does not seem to affect functionality, but it would be a bit out of place of a 220$ bow...







You can see the the thread on the rear of the fetching does not actually touch the feather.







Not pictured; packing tape covered in large green Chinese characters.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

That is very interesting...


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## rookiebodkin (May 21, 2016)

Hello All,

I too made an account for this. Since I may have fallen victim to a scam similar to Desert Fox. I ordered in early April from the Natural Archer, and now I wish that Desert Fox's post came earlier. I happened upon this thread end of April, and got a little uneasy about the OP's complaint. But now... eeek! I will be getting my bow in a week or so, but I will be away till middle of June. I will confirm if this is true soon. If it proves to be so, perhaps even if we (the scammed) cannot claim false advertising, we can contact the original suppliers, and they file an action for infringing on copyright or trademark, perhaps issue a cease and desist letter, thoughts? 

P.S., I also got an email from the guy, apologizing for the tardiness of the bow, and how the arrows will come later because they are coming from somewhere else.


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

me being of female gender I shall not say what needs to be said about this scam. 
I will not I will not I will not.................................................


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## acedoc (May 7, 2016)

martha j said:


> me being of female gender I shall not say what needs to be said about this scam.
> I will not I will not I will not.................................................


I am a guy and still feel this is the most appropriate reply.
Beyond words! If you guys stateside get ripped off this way think how we all feel when ordering half a world away.


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## Milkan1969 (May 23, 2016)

Scarlok I wish you would have posted this before I ordered my bow from Natural Archer last November. 

I ordered a custom English self yew longbow from Natural Archer on 11/30/2015. The bow cost $700.00 USD. According to his website and I quote "Each of our bows is meticulously crafted using the same two hands from harvest to finish. Our bows have reached... Our bows are brought in the world... Our bows are meant to be admired... Pacific yew is the wood used. This high elevation yew from the ideal habitat in British Columbia, it is carefully chosen, harvested and seasoned by the Bowyer.

My bow and arrows were delivered by DHL on 2/10/2016. The shipping label said Flagella Dei, Hungary. When I opened up the package, the bow didn't look like it was made from Pacific yew. I have seen photos of Pacific yew bows. Inside was an invoice from Flagella Dei Kft. 8992 Zalaboldogfa, Hunyadi utca 5. Magyarorszag. I searched the internet and found the company located near Budapest, Hungary. On their website you can order this bow for $379.00 USD off the shelf in stock. It's not custom made and it's not made of Pacific yew.

I emailed the Natural Archer and complained that this was not what I ordered. This was not what I ordered, this was not what was promoted on his website. After several intense emails the Natural Archer said he could see what I was saying. 

I asked for compensation. After several emails we agreed on 2/22/2016 that he would give me $50.00 USD, $180.00 birch bark quiver and a $29.00 solid leather arm guard. I have not received any compensation from the Natural Archer. 


I


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## Btp1003 (Nov 12, 2016)

That is terrible. Bet they won't be in business long if they keep that up.


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