# Would you attend if Rinehart was the target?



## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

I am considering purchasing Rinehart 3D Targets for tournament use. I have been told my attendance would drop because they are not Mckenzie Asa official targets and they do not represent what they will be shooting at Asa or Ibo. Your feedback will help me decide. Thank you.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I would still shoot it but there is a huge diff between the targets and some will not shoot it if they are very serious 3D archers


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2011)

Myself I like the rinehart better


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## glennx (Oct 7, 2006)

I like Rinehart targets better. They last a lot longer.


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## T Miller73 (Jul 22, 2008)

I like Mackenzie alot more , not because of ASA or IBO but just because Rinehart targets do not look life like and are way too small ( not the vital scoring area but actual body size . tis is just my opinion , its really up to you and what you prefer more .


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

Rhineharts last longer but I hate shooting them in competitions. The difference in rings as compared to Mckenzies is why I don't like them. Since I shoot ASA and IBO that is what I want to practice shooting.


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## Hopperton (Oct 30, 2005)

To practice for IBO no I dont like shooting them for a every weekend shoot down the street they are OK.


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## Da Vinci (May 16, 2011)

I really can't stand shooting with those guys who complain about someone's targets. I don't care who makes them, or how they are set up. Somebody else took the time to prepare the course so I could shoot it, so I'm gonna pay them to shoot it. If its cheaper and easier for you, maybe you shouldn't care either. Perhaps the guys who complain about your targets won't be the guys you want attending your shoots anyway....after all, you are providing a place to shoot that wouldn't be there otherwise, right?


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I hate shooting rhinehart targets and the guys I travel with will not attend a shoot if they are used


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## scottranderson (Aug 9, 2009)

Yes I would like to shot rhinehart targets in comp I would not complane. Not in faver, but still no problem from me.


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## safe cracker (Sep 28, 2009)

yes i would shoot it but maybe you should look into randw targets they look real and are cheaper than rhinehart....but i'm sure guys will still say they hate them tooo you just can't win... good luck in what you do...


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

safe cracker said:


> yes i would shoot it but maybe you should look into randw targets they look real and are cheaper than rhinehart....but i'm sure guys will still say they hate them tooo you just can't win... good luck in what you do...


for most you wont win, myself I could care less about winning, why do you think this sport has so many that get into it so hard and heavy, buy new bows, top dollar sights, rests, releases, stab systems and think they are taking over, they will not last unless they accept they cant win until they can judge, make the shot and have nerves of steel, even if they do all of this they crumble and disappear never to be seen, if winning is the only thing to you at 3D I will see you later cause you wont last, there is no magic bow, stab, release or anything else excecpt practice and working on your yardage, form and studying targets! all targets are diff to shoot some dont understand that mckenzie/reinhart are not the same size, or the scoring rings are not the same size, this is the reason pros and serious shooters prefer what ASA/IBO shoot they want to practice judging and shooting what they shoot in comp. I have never seen a sport with so many people who get into 3D and quit, then reappear yrs later, its a constant thing. For those that can win thats great, then we have the pencil shooters I have NO use for you if thats what you do to win, I love to shoot 3D and I dont win but I just keep on shootin cause I love it, have never quit, I also will shoot reinhart,mckenzie, r&w, but if there is a shoot with mckenzies I will shoot it first


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I think that the ASA and IBO should MIX IT UP...that is, quit "giving the test" to the shooters! For example, there are roughly what, 50 different animals in just the MacKenzie lineup, and in addition to that you have Rineharts and Deltas? So, I think that if the "contract" is with MacKenzie, that is fine, BUT....instead of telling the shooter which "20" are going to be used for the season, that it becomes OPEN GAME for ANY of the 50 or so animals to be used on any course, at any time during the year. No two tournaments would use the same 20 animal types, but rather the field would be wide open for ANY of the animal types to appear at any time.

It would be even better if somehow the brands of targets could be interspersed in the mix as well. REAL animals appear at any time, any place, and they are different sizes and coloring is different...so why not for 3-D events? The answer to this is simple...CONTRACTS, and "gotta GIVE us the test and the answers" mentality.
Mix 'em up and this would sure help the clubs with regard to the animals they used. It also would help the "level playing field" because nobody would have a clue which particular 20 animal types would appear at ANY ASA or IBO event...could be anything. That would slow down the wealthy archers from "Buying the test" and having their own private set to memorize. We all know that if the answers to the test are given along with the test questions, that those that "study the best, perform better on the test." However for 3-D, it becomes a problem due to finances...some have the funds, others don't.

Of course, having ANY particular 20 animals used during the tournaments and differing from shoot to shoot and range to range...would keep people GUESSING...(pun intended). Isn't going to happen, but just sayin'.......
And YES, just for your information, I AM an ASA member!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## 5ringking (May 25, 2005)

I myself would shoot the targets but would not take the shoot very serious... I like the durability of the targets but prefer the scoring rings and visual look of the mcKenzies


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## heh (Oct 28, 2002)

If I had a choice of going to a shoot that has Rhinehart or McKenzie targets, I would go to the one that has McKenzies. heh


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Thanks, you brought up some good points. Any locals want to chime in now is your chance.


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## jmvaughn06 (Jan 10, 2009)

I have to agree with field14, the ASA and IBO need to mix things up and quit giving the "cheat sheet". There are a lot of great shooters out their who can't afford their own range and suffer at the distance judging because of it. It makes me wonder if they really mixed it up would the scores go down due to a shooter truely having to be a good distance judger and not just because they have seen the same targets at every distance. My biggest problem with the Rineharts is I have seen some with multiple sets of scoring rings. But when it boils down to it I will shoot any type of 3D foam just to get out and shoot.


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## S.Wells (Oct 30, 2010)

I am not local to you. But if there was another local shoot around my area with McKenzie targets I would go to it. Lots of guys shoot the local shoots as part of practice for IBO and ASA shoots. The size of the target is part of judging yardage, and the rings are different. Rhinehart makes a great target but McKenzie dominates the 3-D shoots. Stick with what the IBO and ASA use.


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

I shoot local clubs that have both targets. I prefer Mckenzie because they are more realistic in their look, size and realism. Field14, when shooting an IBO shoot the competitors don't know which animals they are going to see. The IBO does not specify which targets are to be used. That is ASA's system.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I'd shoot whatever the club had. I like Rineharts and our club has nothing but Rineharts. The next club has nothing but McKenzies.

People complain of Rineharts, not life like or small of some other BS. My opinon; I think these people complain because they can't pick out the point zones as well as they can on a McKenzie.
And remember, Rinehart was at one time the ASA target.
Now, John, James and Barb are great people. If enough people would suggest deeper grooves or whatever so the zone would stick out more, it just might happen.

field14 does have the right ideas. Mix up the targets and then stop the "buying your test sheet" before the test. Heck, we have guys around here that have bought the full line of ASA range targets, either going together or some having the cash to buy for just their own personal use. $3000 for a range.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

sonny, now the targets are 4300 with extra cores


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## markb317 (Nov 18, 2009)

I go to club shoot as a practice for the big IBO and ASA shoots if there is a shoot that has Reinharts for targets it is a waste of my time to go. I would just stay home and shoot the targets I have set.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

As a shooter, it doesn't matter to me which brand the targets are.

As a club, we bought 13 new McKenzies last year and every time I look at those targets it pi$$e$ me off.
The quality of those things is absolutely horrible.
For what they cost, you'd think a bit more quality control would be in order.

We also bought 2 Rinehart targets last year.
MUCH better overall quality, but as mentioned above, they don't look as much like a real animal.
It's almost a "Catch 22". Damned if you do ... damned if you don't.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3Dblackncamo said:


> sonny, now the targets are 4300 with extra cores


Heard they went up. What, a couple of years ago a range was $2500, I think.

I figured they'd go up. I think McKenzie introduced the XT targets at a low price to get their feet in the door. Molds and different molding procedure, then core molds and new foam adds up to dollars. And a company can only stand a loss or manufacturing cost just so long. Okay, again my opinion.

Still, McKenzie did call me and we spoke for probably an hour. This was with the interlocking targets. My want was to have one target and give it a head to head test with a Rinehart. Didn't happen. Our club now has right at or over 100 Rinehart targets now.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Here in So. Ca. we don't have any IBO or ASA events, so it doesn't matter to me what kind of target is used.
Just make the course like if you were out hunting. I hate it when the shooters in the group infront of us use thier feed to cut a flat spot in the side of a hill to stand on, compe on. If you can't shoot on the side of a hill and have to have a flat spot to stand on, go the the mall and have a Star Bucks.
Don.


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

Lol if your a serious archer you want too shoot what you will be shooting at the asa and ibo tournaments.. So, perhaps it would be in the best interests of his business too choose a target that others would like too practice on....


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

Really like the rhineharts durability alot more though


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Sentinalonfire said:


> Really like the rhineharts durability alot more though


. That's my point. I buy a new range every year only to discount it to buy another. Hauling them in and out they are fragile the ears break the legs bend or break and the dovetails break. But other than that it,s a blast setting up a 3d range. Maybe I should glue the joints and try to handle the targets a little better. Any one figure out how to store them with out bending the legs? Thanks again


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## Okie101 (Nov 1, 2009)

field14 said:


> I think that the ASA and IBO should MIX IT UP...that is, quit "giving the test" to the shooters! For example, there are roughly what, 50 different animals in just the MacKenzie lineup, and in addition to that you have Rineharts and Deltas? So, I think that if the "contract" is with MacKenzie, that is fine, BUT....instead of telling the shooter which "20" are going to be used for the season, that it becomes OPEN GAME for ANY of the 50 or so animals to be used on any course, at any time during the year. No two tournaments would use the same 20 animal types, but rather the field would be wide open for ANY of the animal types to appear at any time.
> 
> It would be even better if somehow the brands of targets could be interspersed in the mix as well. REAL animals appear at any time, any place, and they are different sizes and coloring is different...so why not for 3-D events? The answer to this is simple...CONTRACTS, and "gotta GIVE us the test and the answers" mentality.
> Mix 'em up and this would sure help the clubs with regard to the animals they used. It also would help the "level playing field" because nobody would have a clue which particular 20 animal types would appear at ANY ASA or IBO event...could be anything. That would slow down the wealthy archers from "Buying the test" and having their own private set to memorize. We all know that if the answers to the test are given along with the test questions, that those that "study the best, perform better on the test." However for 3-D, it becomes a problem due to finances...some have the funds, others don't.
> ...


Would love to see them mix it up as well...

As far as shooting at a shoot with Rhinehart targets,,,,,,,,you bet I would shoot it, plus it also gives me a break from shooting the 11 McKenzies
in my backyard....:wink:


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

Serious 3D shooters use local shoots for practice (mostly practicing judging distance) and most will not attend if you don't have good McKenzie targets, others don't care. If you want the highest attendance, I would not skimp, get the McKenzie targets and you will be more successful.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Sentinalonfire said:


> Lol if your a serious archer you want too shoot what you will be shooting at the asa and ibo tournaments.. So, perhaps it would be in the best interests of his business too choose a target that others would like too practice on....


I'd rather go practice on the mckenzies, then compete on the later.



lknchoppers said:


> Serious 3D shooters use local shoots for practice (mostly practicing judging distance) and most will not attend if you don't have good McKenzie targets, others don't care. If you want the highest attendance, I would not skimp, get the McKenzie targets and you will be more successful.


Exactly!


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Are you saying we should practice on mckenzies and compete on Rineharts?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

The Fog said:


> Are you saying we should practice on mckenzies and compete on Rineharts?


No, but do as yall will.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

mckenzies will get you serious 3D shooters at your range, bowhunters and shooters dont care what brand target you have, we bought a range at london,ky by the yrs end our open shooters were coming from sc,nc,va and some more than 3 hrs away to shoot our range with 30 xt mckenzies


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## Hopperton (Oct 30, 2005)

field14 said:


> I think that the ASA and IBO should MIX IT UP...that is, quit "giving the test" to the shooters! For example, there are roughly what, 50 different animals in just the MacKenzie lineup, and in addition to that you have Rineharts and Deltas? So, I think that if the "contract" is with MacKenzie, that is fine, BUT....instead of telling the shooter which "20" are going to be used for the season, that it becomes OPEN GAME for ANY of the 50 or so animals to be used on any course, at any time during the year. No two tournaments would use the same 20 animal types, but rather the field would be wide open for ANY of the animal types to appear at any time.(Tom D.)


Absolutely agree, mix it up.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Sounds like I need to stick with Mckenzie. Guess I will call Monday . Any idea on what the new targets are for 2012 that will be at the Asa tournaments?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

2012 McKenzie Targets – We are adding two new targets for 2012 – the Ibex and the Chamois. To order your new McKenzie targets, or inquire about buying ranges after an ASA Pro/Am, contact Peggy Luck in McKenzie customer service at 1-800-708-0673 ext. 12. 

These 15 targets will be on all ranges in 2012:
Grazing Deer 
Large Alert Deer 
Med. Black Bear 
Pronghorn Antelope 
Mule Deer 
Russian Boar 
HD 10 Med. Deer 
Bedded Buck 
HD 30 Large Deer 
Wolf 
Med. Brown Bear 
Warthog 
Impala 
Hyena 
Corsican Sheep

These 5 will be in FL, TX, KY & AL: 
Wild Boar 
Javelina 
Ibex – NEW for 2012
Leopard 
Fallow Deer

These 5 will be in LA, GA & IL:
Blesbock 
Standing Bear
Mountain Lion
Chamois – NEW for 2012
Coyote


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Thanks for the info I better start getting ready. It looks like 25 targets if you want a look at them all.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The used ranges for the ASA Pro/Am events are: $3500.00 and you can purchase an additional 20 new cores for $750. 

I believe there are just a couple ranges left for Florida....and Florida will be the location that everyone will get to see and shoot the new Ibex.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> The used ranges for the ASA Pro/Am events are: $3500.00 and you can purchase an additional 20 new cores for $750.
> 
> I believe there are just a couple ranges left for Florida....and Florida will be the location that everyone will get to see and shoot the new *Ibex*.


Any pictures of that joker floating around?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd shoot it with my hunting bow for fun after 3d season is over. Until then, I don't want to see a Rinehart.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The Fog said:


> . That's my point. I buy a new range every year only to discount it to buy another. Hauling them in and out they are fragile the ears break the legs bend or break and the dovetails break. But other than that it,s a blast setting up a 3d range. Maybe I should glue the joints and try to handle the targets a little better. Any one figure out how to store them with out bending the legs? Thanks again


Titebond. Greatest glue I ever used. Glue one side, put together, pin or use rubber straps for add pressure. Ready to use in one hour. Glue will spread and over foam - so not much worry if you think you didn't use enough. Foam breaks off easily or use puddy knife. I've repaired legs, ears, joints, cut and spliced in new sections, installed steel tubing in legs and even completely rebuilt busted to pieces 3D targets. Can't find, call or email Rinehart. 3D Country has kits to repair point zones, foam, tools and paint. 

We made racks for out targets - Two 2X4s so far apart - supports the middle - feet don't touch the floor.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Any pictures of that joker floating around?


We had a picture at the directors meeting, that is as far as I know of, sorry.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

If I had to choose between two clubs for a weekend, I'd shoot the one with McKenzies. If Rinehart was the only choice, I would shoot it.


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## ksp2089 (Feb 7, 2010)

I prefer McKenzies, but I wouldn't sit at home if my only choice was Rineharts.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Not if I can help it


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

sagecreek said:


> If I had to choose between two clubs for a weekend, I'd shoot the one with McKenzies. If Rinehart was the only choice, I would shoot it.


Same here, I will always opt for the club with the McKenzies.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

What is the deal?
Can you use Binoculars?
If so the scoring rings are visible, my OPINION,
Shut up and Shoot.......
Someone took the time to set them up tear them down,, AND they are usually the same ones that do it , over and over and over.
Rhinehart's last longer and therefore are more financial beneficial.

SHOOT THE SPOT ,, I don't care what it is on...


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

As someone who travels to 7 national tournaments a year with 3 people in my family and wanting all of us to shoot and compete at the highest level that we can attain, we can only spend time traveling to local shoots that will give us the practice that we need to shoot the national events and that would be clubs that have Mckenzies. Every weekend we look at all the clubs in the state that are holding shoots and then cross off the ones that will not provide us with the opportunity to practice on the targets that we will see at the national events. It just makes sense to practice on the targets that we will see there.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Okay I get it. Did not intend to trash Mckenzie. I used Rinehart years ago and never had any problems with them . I bought them 4 years old and they were used for 2 more years at my range and could have lasted many more with a core change. Until things change I will stick with Mckenzie. Is 20 targets plus a mulligan going to be enough to draw shooters? Most of the clubs in my area are going to 25 plus a mulligan that would cost at least another 1200 dollars.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The Fog said:


> Okay I get it. Did not intend to trash Mckenzie. I used Rinehart years ago and never had any problems with them . I bought them 4 years old and they were used for 2 more years at my range and could have lasted many more with a core change. Until things change I will stick with Mckenzie. Is 20 targets plus a mulligan going to be enough to draw shooters? Most of the clubs in my area are going to 25 plus a mulligan that would cost at least another 1200 dollars.



Start off with your 20 targets.....and when you gain revenue get some extras. For the most part most off all the clubs in the majority of our state shoot a 30 target course. I do know that up in the Jax area they like to shoot 20, and that mullligan thing. Get started and go from there.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I started out with 20, but I own over 40 now, but we shoot 30 in our circuit.

Locals don't mind 20, but if you want to draw more shooters, a lot won't drive if you don't have 30 targets.

Being on a circuit will help you get more shooters too.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

How long do you keep your targets assuming you replace the cores?


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

How long do you keep your targets assuming you replace the cores? Could I shoot 15 twice or do I have to come up with 30 lanes and targets.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

You can do either or as to the 15-30 thing...... It will just depend on how many people come and shoot as to the target positions.... I just know that you are best to go with your 20 right now up there.... If your forming a new club people will truely understand.... Everyone that shoots 3d on a competitive scale does know that targets are expensive, and I am sure the clubs up there in the Jax area would love to have another club that has all mckenzie targets.


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

BigCnyn said:


> What is the deal?
> Can you use Binoculars?
> If so the scoring rings are visible, my OPINION,
> Shut up and Shoot.......
> ...



THE DEAL is PRACTICE.... if you just wanna see the spot shoot it, then you could just as well stay at home.. People wanna see what their going too see at national events..


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## jasonposs (Jul 19, 2010)

yes.it matters not to us the type of target we shoot.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

The Fog said:


> How long do you keep your targets assuming you replace the cores? Could I shoot 15 twice or do I have to come up with 30 lanes and targets.


Fog ...
We did 15 targets 2x thru from the same stakes last year. (And not once did anyone have a clean 2nd half.)
Nobody mentioned any problems with it.
This year we're going to do 20 targets shot thru 1 time.

We also have a target rotation of 5 per year.
We'll sell 5 of the oldest targets every year and replace them with new ones.
Don't know for sure how this will work out in the long run.
That means that once we get to 30 total targets that each year we'll have some that are 6 years old. (That's a bit excessive I think.)
We might eventually have to bump up the number sold each year ... ??


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Fog setting up the shoot where you shoot 15 then another 15 would be hard with a casual start. The clubs that do the split normally have a shot gun start and a break in between. I think 20 targets is fine, most shooters in our area are looking for practice for the big ones like it was said above. Having shoots on sat may draw more people because of church, but I know it is difficult because of the shop.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

My shoots will be on Sundays and casual to allow for church folk. I might be able to squeeze in 25 with a little work on lanes. Do Asa rules allow for 2 targets on the same lane? This would keep my existing course as is and make it easier on maintenance .


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

You can shoot two targets in a lane, but it usually creates a bottle-neck, backing up shooters.

I usually sell targets after 3 years, but I keep mine out all the time. lain:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I have to disagree with sagecreek. It depends on just how many show up for a shoot. You saying, tournament, would mean a Qualifier or State event. Each state varies for participation. Our club never had enough to show up at either to even worry about a "bottle neck." Read the rules. Any target brand is approved for Qualifiers. State Championships require McKenzies, but if the bidding club has another brand of target or mixture of and no others bid, then the other targets are accepted. To refuse to attend a State Championship on the grounds that the club doesn't have McKenzies is not helping anyone. 

For the clubs around my area, 35 ASA contestants is probably above average. Not having a Qualifier or State Championship event won't break any of these clubs. Figure $350 for the club hosting either event. $350 for; Cost of fliers for the event. Ranging targets to stay within the rules. Depending on the state, a manner of disclosing known distances. Not every club has stakes to cover all classes, so either combining some classes to a stake or make new stakes. Paper work for sign up and sending to state director and ASA headquarters. If not awarded at the event, writing and mailing checks to contestants.

Okay, the above is just something to look at. Buying targets for the club should be for the club's benefit, not for satisfying a small number of contestants. IF in fact a ASA tournament becomes a big event for the club then McKenzies become something to consider.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

We get some of the best shooters in the nation so I think it would be in my best interest to stay with a 20 lane 20 target format. That's how they do it in the national events. I will have to rethink the mulligan since it is not Asa legal and may influence the scores. Do any other clubs use a mulligan outside of North Florida. & South Georgia ?


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

I think it matters to most of the competitive ASA shooters. To me, I like Rinehart targets just as well if not more. But i'm not strictly an ASA shooter either, i go to have a good time.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Fog, you've had a good setup for the last 2 years....why go change it now. Everyone in the area shoots 20-25 targets, half unknown half known with an optional mulligan. Having a shoot on a saturday every 3rd month may help draw more shooters.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

I appreciate that, why mess with a good thing. We are working on the schedule this week if there are any open Saturday's we could try to snag it. As you already know there are only so many open dates with 5 clubs trying to coordinate their schedules and avoiding holidays , Asa & Ibo .


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## gryfox00 (Jun 11, 2007)

S.Wells said:


> I am not local to you. But if there was another local shoot around my area with McKenzie targets I would go to it. Lots of guys shoot the local shoots as part of practice for IBO and ASA shoots. The size of the target is part of judging yardage, and the rings are different. Rhinehart makes a great target but McKenzie dominates the 3-D shoots. Stick with what the IBO and ASA use.


Funny, there is a reason behind this (Rhinehart makes a great target but McKenzie dominates the 3-D shoots) it's business $$ !! is it fair ?? is it good for the clubs, Don't think so. That is why McKenzie is used at the ASA and IBO (sponsorship) !! I agree the targets should be mixed, no designated for the yearset of targets, and that the only stipulation should be the scoring areas need to match type of tourney being hosted, IBO or ASA. Have shot both, I know which one is more durable for the clubs and which one is easier to handle and set, have set many a course !! Everybody out there needs to support their local archery organizations, and not based solely upon the target manufacturer they have, or they may not be around to use !!


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

The clubs around here are about 1/2 Rinehart and 1/2 McKenzie. 

I will shoot either targets, but if there are 2 shoots scheduled on the same week, I will opt for the club with the McKenzies.


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## shane&karie (Jan 19, 2010)

i agree with you if you can shoot at a spot forget the rest of the target and shoot the spot you want to shoot


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## happyhunter62 (Dec 31, 2010)

athomPT said:


> Rhineharts last longer but I hate shooting them in competitions. The difference in rings as compared to Mckenzies is why I don't like them. Since I shoot ASA and IBO that is what I want to practice shooting.


will agree but the mckenzies are way easier to set up cause they are a lot lighter


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

It's already been mentioned but I'll say it again. The quality of McKenzie's targets is horrible. The last ones our club bought were pathetic and we buy a lot of them every year. I hope the improve but don't see it happening. As long as the ASA and IBO continue with them and all of the small clubs buy them for these reasons the price will continut to go up and quality will continue to go the other way.


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## happyhunter62 (Dec 31, 2010)

mocheese said:


> It's already been mentioned but I'll say it again. The quality of McKenzie's targets is horrible. The last ones our club bought were pathetic and we buy a lot of them every year. I hope the improve but don't see it happening. As long as the ASA and IBO continue with them and all of the small clubs buy them for these reasons the price will continut to go up and quality will continue to go the other way.


will agree but our club bought a rinehardt gator target and the quality was horrible on it as well. there were a bunch of really soft spots all over the target. not acceptable for me espacially for the money they cost


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Thank you everyone I'm going with Mckenzie, but I appreciate your input


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## z7 xtreme fmj (Aug 26, 2011)

heck ya , i would still go. espesially if you got the velosirapter target . that things awsome ! 2 bad its like 660 bucks


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## Old Man Archer (Mar 31, 2009)

I've shot for many years at all the different types of competitions and what I've noticed is that nearly everyone has Binoculars hanging around their necks. This means that all these folks should be able to see the targets well enough to see the kill zones or scoring rings. Why the ASA and IBO shooters don't like Rineharts actually has nothing to do with this fact it is the fact that they are used to shooting just a particular set of targets which all have tell tale markings of where the twelve rings or 11 rings are. Mckenzie targets are smooth and glossy so that the musculature shows unlike a live animal which has a coat of fur kinda similar to a Rinehart target. Used to be that the Mckenzie crowd used to use the " well the Rineharts have inserts so it makes it too easy" argument then Mckenzie started using similar inserts in some of their targets then well that was OK. The argument that Rineharts are smaller well thats just bullsh** the Ten point or mule deer is just as big or bigger than the like target made by Mckenzie. If they would just be honest they would say that they can't shoot them as well because they don't have the reference points to go by. I have yet to see a live animal that shaves it's fur off so that I can get a better reference point to place my arrow. Be honest and say that without the same targets at every shoot that all look like fur less critters that glisten in the sun you can't shoot as good of a score because you don't have a tell tale crease or pocket to shoot at. If you don't like what I said then I'm sorry , prove to me I'm wrong get both the big 3-D organizations to switch it up with target brands and open it up to different targets , like how about the ASA shoots at some turkeys and ***** for example. It really isn't a true competition when you already know what you'll be shooting at at every shoot and what the distance limits are. I'll shut up now because it will never happen and the snobs who won't support another club because of the type of targets they have are not true archers any way. When our club hosted the Illinois state ASA Championship because none of the other ASA clubs wanted to our now State ASA director told me that he discouraged as many people as he could from particapating because we only had Rineharts. Heck of a way to promote archery don't you think, If shooting competition in these organizations means not supporting and not promoting the sport because you will not shoot at clubs that don't have just a certain brand and specific ones of that brand. Some will remember and many will never have known but at one time clubs made their own 3-D targets and the good or great archers still shot good or outstanding scores most of these had coverings of real fur or carpet no tell tale reference points just true archers.


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## a7xelk (Jun 12, 2010)

GREAY post Old Man Archer


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## gryfox00 (Jun 11, 2007)

I agree with a lot of what Old Man Archer states, but also, another factor is $ ( business )


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

asa used reinharts but there agreement was not held up by reinhart and mike tyrell will not use them for this reason, reinhart makes a good target, but both increase in cost and decline in quality every yr, if you are a serious ASA shooter your going to go where the xt mckenzies are being used, like it or not thats the way it is!


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

3Dblackncamo said:


> asa used reinharts but there agreement was not held up by reinhart and mike tyrell will not use them for this reason, reinhart makes a good target, but both increase in cost and decline in quality every yr, if you are a serious ASA shooter your going to go where the xt mckenzies are being used, like it or not thats the way it is!


You are 100% correct


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3Dblackncamo said:


> asa used reinharts but there agreement was not held up by reinhart and mike tyrell will not use them for this reason, reinhart makes a good target, but both increase in cost and decline in quality every yr, if you are a serious ASA shooter your going to go where the xt mckenzies are being used, like it or not thats the way it is!





WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> You are 100% correct


If I remember correctly, Rinehart saw that they were losing money. It was quit or go broke....


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> If I remember correctly, Rinehart saw that they were losing money. It was quit or go broke....


They werent selling ranges like mckenze does now. But I was agreeing with the being a serious shooter and shooting the xt series. The range that originally posted this had rineharts at first, but after a few shoots and attendence going down he got mckenzies. In this area we average 90+ shooters at local shoots, and over half of them travel to asa & ibo events.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I will shoot at anything - Im in no contention to be anyone in the ASA circuit I just like to shoot.

Seeing that Rhinehart is in this area - they are all over the place.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Old Man Archer said:


> When our club hosted the Illinois state ASA Championship because none of the other ASA clubs wanted to


I understand this to be true. The then ASA Illinois Director could have very well refused our club and been justified. We did not have any negative comments at the Championship or were there negative comments in ASA Forums. I believe I said it above (I ain't checking) with the amount of ASA competitors at Qualifiers in our area clubs can do without and survive quite easily.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> They werent selling ranges like mckenze does now. But I was agreeing with the being a serious shooter and shooting the xt series. The range that originally posted this had rineharts at first, but after a few shoots and attendence going down he got mckenzies. In this area we average 90+ shooters at local shoots, and over half of them travel to asa & ibo events.


90+ shooters ain't bad. We haven't averaged less than 102 for the past 9 years that I know of. For 2010 we average 142 shooters, which includes one ASA Qualifier and the State Championship(44 shooters if I remember correctly). Our average without the Qualifier and without the State Championship would have been 157. Now, this is with all Rinehart targets.

I like playing with numbers. Try from 2002 thru 2010 we averaged 137.7 shooters per month (7 and 8 month shooting year). By 2003 we had virtually all Rineharts with maybe 5 McKenzies. We hosted the I.A.A. 3D State Championship in 2003 and had 215 contestants. 2 shooters liked it enough (Chicago area) to shoot a practice round afterwards (found this in my notes).


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

I liked the Rineharts better but will shoot whatever is there to shoot....


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

*to shoot or not*

As stated above your never gonna please all the folks,if you have more serious tourney shooters go mckenzie, if ya have a lot of local guys who love to shoot buy the targets from each manufacturer ya like. Were it me I'd mix it up as I like a challenge and I like to win on judgement skills and shooting skills on unknown animals, not previous study of specific targets. There was a local shoot here that had mixed targets and "scenes" such as three leopards eating a deer, or a mountain lion about to pounce on a pig! You had to shoot all animals from the same stake! It was the most fun I've had while shooting 3D in avery long time! Just an idea to ponder.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

The Fog said:


> . That's my point. I buy a new range every year only to discount it to buy another. Hauling them in and out they are fragile the ears break the legs bend or break and the dovetails break. But other than that it,s a blast setting up a 3d range. Maybe I should glue the joints and try to handle the targets a little better. Any one figure out how to store them with out bending the legs? Thanks again


No way you should have to buy a whole new range every year. With the new Mckenzies just replace the cores, and I do think that would be your best bet.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Where are You in Jax..?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

ABTABB said:


> Where are You in Jax..?


Its green acres


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

I've been shooting 3D since 1988 and have never heard a person say they would not shoot a particular course because of target brand. Only gripes I hear concern how the course is setup regarding obstructions and the kill zone.


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## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

T Miller73 said:


> I like Mackenzie alot more , not because of ASA or IBO but* just because Rinehart targets do not look life like and are way too small *( not the vital scoring area but actual body size . tis is just my opinion , its really up to you and what you prefer more .


Yeah, Rinehart should do more research and build a more life-size giraffe/triceratops/alien/T-rex..... LOL....

I really wouldn't care which brand of target I'm shooting (then again, scores don't matter to me so....) Size/location of scoring ring is of no consequence...

I'd rather pull an arrow from a Rinehart, just for sake of extraction effort only.

To each his/her own, but I'd come shoot it....

J.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

ABTABB said:


> Where are You in Jax..?





WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Its green acres


Thanks Doug, I was thinking that but thought they already had 20 lanes..?


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## soflanut (Nov 28, 2006)

This is a interesting thread, are you shooting at the target or a spot on the target? I shoot for a spot, so what different is it if the target is life like or not? You're still shooting at a spot. Then I don't shoot fat boy arrows to make a bigger hole in the target. (inserted as sarcasm)


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

i certainly would. archery is for shooting and a lot of fun. i can have a good time shooting any ol' targets.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

the fog said:


> *we get some of the best shooters in the nation so i think it would be in my best interest to stay with a 20 lane 20 target format. That's how they do it in the national events.*


this^^^


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

soflanut said:


> This is a interesting thread, are you shooting at the target or a spot on the target? I shoot for a spot, so what different is it if the target is life like or not? You're still shooting at a spot. Then I don't shoot fat boy arrows to make a bigger hole in the target. (inserted as sarcasm)


Same here. I couldn't care less what the target looks like. I shoot for rings. Would be just as happy shooting at blocks of foam with scoring rings set around the woods. The shape or color is irrelevant to me.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Judging distance is a big part of 3d, if it were up to me it would all be unknown with 250 fps limits. The size of the animal really effects my perception of distance . I think that has a lot to do with why the Mckenzie are preferred .


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## Frederick D. Be (Mar 3, 2009)

Absolutely. Longhorn makes some very fine targets as well...biggest darn armadillo I have ever seen...and you can flip him over and catch him taking a nap in a tree!!!! Rineharts do last and so do Longhorn targets. Cheers!
Fred


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

The Fog said:


> Judging distance is a big part of 3d, if it were up to me it would all be unknown with 250 fps limits. The size of the animal really effects my perception of distance . I think that has a lot to do with why the Mckenzie are preferred .


This is the main reason for me. A lot of successful 3ders don't look at the ground for their number. They use the relative size of the animal at given distances. In order to do this you need to practice a lot on the actual targets that you will see in a tournament situation. Since the national events are utilizing Mckenzies we will attend the local and state shoots that use them also.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

field14 said:


> I think that the ASA and IBO should MIX IT UP...that is, quit "giving the test" to the shooters! For example, there are roughly what, 50 different animals in just the MacKenzie lineup, and in addition to that you have Rineharts and Deltas? So, I think that if the "contract" is with MacKenzie, that is fine, BUT....instead of telling the shooter which "20" are going to be used for the season, that it becomes OPEN GAME for ANY of the 50 or so animals to be used on any course, at any time during the year. No two tournaments would use the same 20 animal types, but rather the field would be wide open for ANY of the animal types to appear at any time.
> 
> It would be even better if somehow the brands of targets could be interspersed in the mix as well. REAL animals appear at any time, any place, and they are different sizes and coloring is different...so why not for 3-D events? The answer to this is simple...CONTRACTS, and "gotta GIVE us the test and the answers" mentality.
> Mix 'em up and this would sure help the clubs with regard to the animals they used. It also would help the "level playing field" because nobody would have a clue which particular 20 animal types would appear at ANY ASA or IBO event...could be anything. That would slow down the wealthy archers from "Buying the test" and having their own private set to memorize. We all know that if the answers to the test are given along with the test questions, that those that "study the best, perform better on the test." However for 3-D, it becomes a problem due to finances...some have the funds, others don't.
> ...


I disagree. You mix up so many different target companies then that means alot of the people are gonna spend a ton of money trying to buy targets so we can compete. Having you own range is key in being successful in 3D but this way would not be feasable. Way to much money in targets and not just that its gonna take alot more property to set up all your targets on in trying to get prepared for the next shoot.

I think Rheinhart makes a fine target but I wont ever shoot them till after the season is over. I only want to look at what we are using at the National Tournaments. Once target season is over then its time to shoot the rheinharts for what the range finder says so you I can get the hunting bow ready to go.
Jame


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Gotta go with Jame on this one... It's has nothing to do with the quality of the targets, or location of the scoring rings... Strictly from a yardage judging standpoint, everyone I know that shoots National ASA/IBO tournaments, would "Prefer" McKenzie's...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jame said:


> I disagree. You mix up so many different target companies then that means alot of the people are gonna spend a ton of money trying to buy targets so we can compete. Having you own range is key in being successful in 3D but this way would not be feasable. Way to much money in targets and not just that its gonna take alot more property to set up all your targets on in trying to get prepared for the next shoot.
> 
> I think Rheinhart makes a fine target but I wont ever shoot them till after the season is over. I only want to look at what we are using at the National Tournaments. Once target season is over then its time to shoot the rheinharts for what the range finder says so you I can get the hunting bow ready to go.
> Jame


Not at all....Shoot ALL Mackenzies; that is just fine...but I mean..>MIX THOSE UP and do NOT EVER shoot the same 20 animals all year long for ALL of the tournaments. There are what, 50 or 60 different animals? Use the same brand, but do NOT give them the answers to the test by selecting only 20 of the 60 (or whatever) to use at all the events for that year. Make it so ANY of those 60 are 'fair game' (pun intended) for ANY tournament or range at any time, and in any order.

So this helps level the playing field a TON as compared to HAVING to BUY your own set of targets to be competitive...that gives those with unlimited resources a HUGE advantage over the field. Put out ANY 20 of those 60 targets in any order at any time, and let's see who can "play ball" when there is a REAL TEST instead of one where those with the money can "buy" it to work on the answers to the test. Who has MASTERED the subject matter (as in "judging" yardage, and who has "memorized the test", only to perhaps fail if something that requires mastery of the *subject matter *(judging yardage to ANY target regardless) to succeed? Of course it is Harder to "memorize" all 60 of them...that is the point. It levels the field back to the MASTERY of the subject....."ability to effectively Judge (guess) yardage and then to also make the shot to hit where you are aiming.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

field14 said:


> Not at all....Shoot ALL Mackenzies; that is just fine...but I mean..>MIX THOSE UP and do NOT EVER shoot the same 20 animals all year long for ALL of the tournaments. There are what, 50 or 60 different animals? Use the same brand, but do NOT give them the answers to the test by selecting only 20 of the 60 (or whatever) to use at all the events for that year. Make it so ANY of those 60 are 'fair game' (pun intended) for ANY tournament or range at any time, and in any order.
> 
> So this helps level the playing field a TON as compared to HAVING to BUY your own set of targets to be competitive...that gives those with unlimited resources a HUGE advantage over the field. Put out ANY 20 of those 60 targets in any order at any time, and let's see who can "play ball" when there is a REAL TEST instead of one where those with the money can "buy" it to work on the answers to the test. Who has MASTERED the subject matter (as in "judging" yardage, and who has "memorized the test", only to perhaps fail if something that requires mastery of the *subject matter *(judging yardage to ANY target regardless) to succeed? Of course it is Harder to "memorize" all 60 of them...that is the point. It levels the field back to the MASTERY of the subject....."ability to effectively Judge (guess) yardage and then to also make the shot to hit where you are aiming.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Field, I have to say this about this with people with unlimited resources. It is the same in all sports, from archery to football and all in between. If you want to be competitive you have to be able to spend the $$. Talent helps, but building on that talent costs money. I do not have my own range, but I'm slowly buying targets. I do have the advantage of great clubs in my area like Circle-C Archery and Ft Caroline Archers that have the targets out year around to practice on.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

field14 said:


> Not at all....Shoot ALL Mackenzies; that is just fine...but I mean..>MIX THOSE UP and do NOT EVER shoot the same 20 animals all year long for ALL of the tournaments. There are what, 50 or 60 different animals? Use the same brand, but do NOT give them the answers to the test by selecting only 20 of the 60 (or whatever) to use at all the events for that year. Make it so ANY of those 60 are 'fair game' (pun intended) for ANY tournament or range at any time, and in any order.
> 
> So this helps level the playing field a TON as compared to HAVING to BUY your own set of targets to be competitive...that gives those with unlimited resources a HUGE advantage over the field. Put out ANY 20 of those 60 targets in any order at any time, and let's see who can "play ball" when there is a REAL TEST instead of one where those with the money can "buy" it to work on the answers to the test. Who has MASTERED the subject matter (as in "judging" yardage, and who has "memorized the test", only to perhaps fail if something that requires mastery of the *subject matter *(judging yardage to ANY target regardless) to succeed? Of course it is Harder to "memorize" all 60 of them...that is the point. It levels the field back to the MASTERY of the subject....."ability to effectively Judge (guess) yardage and then to also make the shot to hit where you are aiming.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I understand what you are saying and I agree on the judging ability. Problem is if it was any Mckenzie target there are those guys who own already or would buy all the targets. It then becomes who has the money to buy all the targets so they can practice on all of them vs the guys who dont and have to drive around to different ranges to see the majority. Its all about how much money you have. Either way you look at it money has an advantage.
Jame


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jame said:


> I understand what you are saying and I agree on the judging ability. Problem is if it was any Mckenzie target there are those guys who own already or would buy all the targets. It then becomes who has the money to buy all the targets so they can practice on all of them vs the guys who dont and have to drive around to different ranges to see the majority. Its all about how much money you have. Either way you look at it money has an advantage.
> Jame


Yes, I agree with what you say; basically, "money talks". However many people are going to think twice before investing in 60 DIFFERENT targets and trying to memorize all 60 of them. Can you imagine how tough that is going to become? 20 is a snap, but 60 of them at all the varying distances, etc? That definitely would trim down the list of those people that will spend that much money, which I do know you understand that too.
Also, don't you think it would help the clubs if more people were driving around to find more clubs/shoots to go to that offer the difference and variety of targets...instead of the SAME OLE MAGIC 20 week-in and week out...and then if the major tourneys did the same thing...VARIETY...and a TRUE test of "judging ability, along with shooting prowess might tend to show. Sure, the cream always rises to the top, so probably the same people would win, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to memorize 60 of them as it is to memorize only the TEST of 20.
Anyways, it is simply a suggestion/observation. It isn't going to happen, but from a club standpoint, that would make life for the clubs a ton easier than trying to make sure they have "THE MAGIC 20" that are being used that year, and abandoning those into the back of the storage area that are not on the list...and here sits an inventory of expensive targets they cannot use...cuz people will complain that they are not using "THE MAGIC 20" for that year.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

No I would not attend 3d shoots with Rhineharts. We shoot ASA and want to judge Mckenise targets.

Most of us in my area own ranges and can shoot them any time.
DB


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## bucktowntrotter (Mar 25, 2011)

I would rather go to a shoot with rineharts. That being said, alot or archers are just that, archers, not bowhunters. Rineharts look better with any age on them, mckenzies age really bad really quick in my opinion. They are hard to pull arrows from if they have any age on them. I go to 3d shoots to get me ready for deer season though, alot go to shoot for a high score, not important to me. You should buy for your customers. Bowhunters in general i believe would prefer rineharts, mckenzies for spot shooting archers. Rineharts age better, arrows pull easier, pieces fit together better or are 1 piece and the whole animal, not just the insert is of a really nice foam.


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