# aiming confusion.



## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the difference. Probably better labeled cognitive, and sub-cognitive; the difference being something taking focus or concentration. Conscious meaning being aware. But to your question, many top shooters consider aiming to be focusing on the point on the target rather than focusing on the pin and holding the pin on/over the point on the target they want to hit. Reason being, if your form is correct and your equipment properly set, the pin will settle on the point where you aim/focus naturally. Focusing on the pin and moving it to the aim point requires keeping track of two points then merging and holding them. You may be able to illustrate this by picking a point in the room you're in, say a light switch. First stand and try holding out your arm index finger up and use the tip of your finger as your sight pin. Focus on the tip of your finger and move it to cover the light switch and hold. Now drop your arm, close your eyes and open them looking at the light switch. While looking at the light switch, bring your arm and finger up to the switch, but continue to focus on the switch. You can see the tip of your finger, but your focus is the light switch. Likely, your finger is "floating" on the switch without you focusing on keeping at that point. 

That being said, we're all wired different. It may seem more natural to focus on your finger and hold at the switch. If that is the case, then when you're shooting - focus on your pin and hold over the X ring. If focusing on the X ring works, see how your scores move. For some, it may end up being the same process in their minds - for others - it can make a distinct difference. It definitely is not a myth, and you are concentrating either way, just a slightly different way. There are any number of sports which incorporate this process; a basketball player is not focusing on dribbling the ball as he moves down court, a baseball player watches the pitched ball as he swings, a trap shooter watches the clay pigeon, etc. . .


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Praeger said:


> I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the difference. Probably better labeled cognitive, and sub-cognitive; the difference being something taking focus or concentration. Conscious meaning being aware. But to your question, many top shooters consider aiming to be focusing on the point on the target rather than focusing on the pin and holding the pin on/over the point on the target they want to hit. Reason being, if your form is correct and your equipment properly set, the pin will settle on the point where you aim/focus naturally. Focusing on the pin and moving it to the aim point requires keeping track of two points then merging and holding them. You may be able to illustrate this by picking a point in the room you're in, say a light switch. First stand and try holding out your arm index finger up and use the tip of your finger as your sight pin. Focus on the tip of your finger and move it to cover the light switch and hold. Now drop your arm, close your eyes and open them looking at the light switch. While looking at the light switch, bring your arm and finger up to the switch, but continue to focus on the switch. You can see the tip of your finger, but your focus is the light switch. Likely, your finger is "floating" on the switch without you focusing on keeping at that point.
> 
> That being said, we're all wired different. It may seem more natural to focus on your finger and hold at the switch. If that is the case, then when you're shooting - focus on your pin and hold over the X ring. If focusing on the X ring works, see how your scores move. For some, it may end up being the same process in their minds - for others - it can make a distinct difference. It definitely is not a myth, and you are concentrating either way, just a slightly different way. There are any number of sports which incorporate this process; a basketball player is not focusing on dribbling the ball as he moves down court, a baseball player watches the pitched ball as he swings, a trap shooter watches the clay pigeon, etc. . .


Best answer I've ever read on this!


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

There is conscious aiming and there is subconscious aiming. If you focus on the point of impact, your subconscious mind will start bringing the pin back to center before you can consiously do so.

I have many many many times been aiming hard and the pin was not in the "x" when the shot fired - look at the target and the arrow is in the middle. Why? Subconscious aiming. That is why I focus on the spot. Focusing on the pin can lead to TP in some instances, depending on the personality of the shooter.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I have to disagree on that and it may just be the choice of words to describe what is happening....

You cannot "subconciously" aim...you are either aiming or you are not. 

The question is if you are aiming at a spot on the target your are trying to hit or aiming at the pin....nothing subconcious about that...


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

You can disagree. Your subconscious does many things at once. But dont argue with me about it. You will have to take that up with Kisik Lee.
Bear in mind that the sight is bound to move about on the target: don’t try to overcorrect for this consciously, subconscious aiming will do it for you. 

But hey to each there own.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

You mean that we should just consciously focus on the target instead of the pin? Nothing "subconcious" about that...

Just checked my copy of Coach Lee's book and his website and found nothing related to the "subconcious"...

Perhaps this is just a ploy to sell some CD's with subliminal messages on them?

To each there own....


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

From With Winning in Mind by Olympic Champion Larry Bassham

"The subconscious mind is the source of all mental power. The subconscious mind moves you to do whatever the conscious mind is picturing...When the conscious, subconscious, and self image are balanced and working togther, good performance is effortless."

While the President of TAA was at training in Chula Vista, a laser was attached to his bow. He noticed how his pin was floating all over the place but after the release the arrow was in the gold. How he asked? Your subconscious aiming was the answer.

Could you please find me some actual data that the subconscious has nothing to do with aiming, other than your personal opinion.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Larry Bassham is not Kisik Lee....

Your subconcious wasn't doing anything...the person was cognitively focusing on the target! Your not using some magic part of your mind to pull this off! This is just focusing on where you want to hit and allowing the shot to happen...

A quick Google search will show you that there isn't even a consistent agreement on what this term means or if it even exists. But you will see it often associated with quack self help theories....


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Just like I thought - personal opinion


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

No personal opinions, just showing what is available for all to see....

I notice that you aren't selling your magic CD's on here anymore....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Posting info for those who get caught up in the "subconcious" hype....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconscious


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Magic CD's? Like I said personal opinions.

subconscious coordination - I guess that is a myth also.....

I guess you have conscious release also. You be the man.

Im completely wrong your right all the way. Im sorry for being so stupid.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

The term *subconscious* is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a definition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings.
In everyday speech and popular writing, however, the term is very commonly encountered as a layperson's replacement for the unconscious mind, which in Freud's opinion is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression. However, the contents do not necessarily have to be solely negative. In the psychoanalytic view, the unconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects—it expresses itself in the symptom. Unconscious thoughts are not directly accessible to ordinary introspection, but are supposed to be capable of being "tapped" and "interpreted" by special methods and techniques such as meditation, random association, dream analysis, and verbal slips (commonly known as a Freudian slip), examined and conducted during psychoanalysis. Carl Jung developed the concept further. He divided the unconscious into two parts: the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious. The personal unconscious is a reservoir of material that was once conscious but has been forgotten or suppressed.
The idea of the "subconscious" as a powerful or potent agency has allowed the term to become prominent in the New Age and self-help literature, in which investigating or controlling its supposed knowledge or power is seen as advantageous. In the New Age community, techniques such as autosuggestion and affirmations are believed to harness the power of the subconscious to influence a person's life and real-world outcomes, even curing sickness. _Skeptical Inquirer_ magazine criticized the lack of falsifiability and testability of these claims.[SUP][1][/SUP] Physicist Ali Alousi, for instance, criticized it as unmeasurable and questioned the likelihood that thoughts can affect anything outside the head.[SUP][2][/SUP] In addition, critics have asserted that the evidence provided is usually anecdotal and that, because of the self-selecting nature of the positive reports, as well as the subjective nature of any results, these reports are susceptible toconfirmation bias and selection bias.[SUP][3][/SUP]
The word "subconscious" is an anglicized version of the French _subconscient_ as coined by the psychologist Pierre Janet. Janet himself saw the _subconscient_ as active in hypnotic suggestion and as an area of the psyche to which ideas would be consigned through a process that involved a "splitting" of the mind and a restriction of the field of consciousness.[SUP][_citation needed_][/SUP]

Contents [hide]​
1 The "subconscious" and psychoanalysis
2 "New Age" and other "fringe" modalities targeting the "subconscious"
3 See also
4 Notes and references
5 External links

[edit]The "subconscious" and psychoanalysisThough laypersons commonly assume "subconscious" to be a psychoanalytic term, this is not in fact the case. Sigmund Freud had explicitly condemned the word as long ago as 1915: "We shall also be right in rejecting the term 'subconsciousness' as incorrect and misleading".[SUP][4][/SUP] In later publications his objections were made clear:

“"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically – to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness – or qualitatively – to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious."[SUP][5][/SUP]”
Thus, as Charles Rycroft has explained, "subconscious" is a term "never used in psychoanalytic writings".[SUP][6][/SUP] And, in Peter Gay's words, use of "subconscious" where "unconscious" is meant is "a common and telling mistake";[SUP][7][/SUP]indeed, "when [the term] is employed to say something 'Freudian', it is proof that the writer has not read his Freud".[SUP][8][/SUP]
Freud's own terms for mentation taking place outside conscious awareness were _das Unbewusste_ (rendered by his translators as "the Unconscious") and _das Vorbewusste_ ("the Preconscious"); informal use of the term "subconscious" in this context thus creates confusion, as it fails to make clear which (if either) is meant. The distinction is of significance because in Freud's formulation the Unconscious is "dynamically" unconscious, the Preconscious merely "descriptively" so: the contents of the Unconscious require special investigative techniques for their exploration, whereas something in the Preconscious is unrepressed and can be recalled to consciousness by the simple direction of attention. The erroneous, pseudo-Freudan use of "subconscious" and "subconsciousness" has its precise equivalent in German, where the words inappropriately employed are _das Unterbewusste_ and _das Unterbewusstsein_.
[edit]"New Age" and other "fringe" modalities targeting the "subconscious"As outlined above, psychologists and psychiatrists exclusively use the term "unconscious" in situations where many laywriters, particularly such as those in metaphysical and New Age literature, usually use the term "subconscious". It should not, however, be inferred from this that the orthodox concept of the unconscious and the New Age concept of the subconscious are precisely equivalent. Psychologists and psychiatrists take a much more limited view of the capabilities of the unconscious than are represented by the common New Age depiction of the "subconscious". There are a number of methods in use in the contemporary New Age and paranormal communities to try to directly affect the latter:

Affirmations
Autosuggestion
Binaural beats
Hypnosis
Subliminal message


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Interesting that when I give you a definition of the word that you are using incorrectly, you come back with another phrase that uses the same incorrect definition....

Even Freud's own words above state the problem...

What you are explaining to do is right, but it's not for the reason that you think it is....


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## brace height (Feb 26, 2009)

OOoohh, cut and past. How creative. Wanna buy a CD?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

It would have taken to long to re-type it and I'm pretty fast at typing!

I have some of those CD's....ummmm, they don't work...


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

In both methods, the eyes focus on the target, not the pin. The difference in the two methods are what the archer concentrates on during the aiming moment. Concentration is defined as what the mind is seeing. With one method, commonly called conscious aiming, the mind is immersed in concentrating on the target. With the other method, the mind concentrates on execution. Various coaches teach different things to concentrate on. I understand that coach Lee teaches concentration on the draw side rhomboid muscle. Terry Wunderle teaches a similar method with concentration on execution. When I asked one of Mr Wunderle's more successful students about this he told me "I know where I want the arrow to go, my subconscious knows where I want the arrow to go, heck, everyone in the building knows where I want the arrow to go. I just have to look at the target and focus on good execution".

For most compound archers shooting at relatively short distances, concentration on the target, conscious aiming, is going to give the best results. Another pretty successful archer expressed it "I don't aim. I just look at the smallest part of the target that I can see and imagine my arrow going in that exact spot".

According to an article by Rick McKinney one situation where subconscious aiming is a superior method is long distance in windy conditions. A conscious aimer tends to drive by and punch the release in these conditions. Sometimes, even to the level of a little target panic. A subconscious aimer will focus or concentrate on execution and come away with better scores. 

Every archer will do better with one method or the other. I've never heard of anyone who can switch methods back and forth, but there is probably someone who can do it. Generally, it is better to pick one method and stick with it. I do know from personal experience that you should maintain focus on one or the other during a shot. Switching focus is a recipe for poor scores.

JMHO,
Allen


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Excellent aread!!!!!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

The issue is not the method...and I completely agree with the examples you gave, but the terminology...

There is nothing "subconscious" going on here! You are actively aiming and shooting the bow because our wonderful minds are capable of doing many things at once. What we are seeing here is a choice of where to place the focus. When you throw a ball, there is no point where you think to release the ball. You look at where you are trying to throw it and you throw the ball. Again, nothing subconscious, just a built in set of memories on how to do this...

Same thing applies in archery! We get our technique down by practicing, focusing on our execution. Once we have that, we can start to shoot with aiming and that is where the choice comes in! When we threw the ball, we did not focus on the ball, we focused on where we were throwing it! In archery, why would we focus on the pin, circle, dot, whatever, when we want to hit the target?!?! Focus on that and trust your shot and it will happen! In fact, it has to happen that way! To focus on how you are gripping the trigger or pulling the hinge or whatever takes you away from the primary focus of aiming! This is a recipe for what felt like a great shot in the 8 ring!

Everything that is happening here is in your conscious mind. You are aiming and you are executing. Both at the same time and it is the way every living being on the planet does it. No need for a meaningless terms to be used to confuse people about this...


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## cmoody (Feb 26, 2011)

http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/gallery/117/media/4140/mwoffseason1210-practice-makes-perfect.html
Approx. 5:40 into the video without getting to technical Bill Winke talks about this issue and I've found it helpful, hopefully somone else does to.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

High level archery skill is learned and maintained through repeated repeated repeated practice that builds muscle memory . This teaches the brain to make super fast calculations that are handled thru the subconscious mind. All the conscious mind can do is try to hold the pin in the center - which it will not stay motionless for long. This is where you have to trust your shot and the subconscious mind comes into play. 

My subconscious has to process and fire the shot...I cannot consciously do both. May there are some that can.

Not sure if you can get this in a CD or not, but Scot seems to owns few.:cheers:


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

So a part of your mind that doesn't exist and you can't control is what makes your shots go off? That's just awesome!

Joe, I noticed that you got rid of all your advertising for the subliminal message CD's that you use to try to sell here....how'd that work out for ya? 

If anyone is interested, I have some magic wristbands that will refocus the energy around you and cure your ills and make you shoot better!

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

So, if there is no such thing as an unconscious action, what is it that makes my sight pin keep coming back to the target I'm trying to hit... because it's not me thinking, "Jeeze, the pin sure needs to move in order to be on the target." 

What is it that keeps my pickup on the road for mile upon mile without me ever thinking about moving the steering wheel?

Yeah, I know it's my brain doing these things. The problem is, the thought never enters my mind.

That is the definition of unconscious verses conscious... at least it is to me.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

da white shoe said:


> So, if there is no such thing as an unconscious action, what is it that makes my sight pin keep coming back to the target I'm trying to hit... because it's not me thinking, "Jeeze, the pin sure needs to move in order to be on the target."
> 
> What is it that keeps my pickup on the road for mile upon mile without me ever thinking about moving the steering wheel?
> 
> ...


Those are the correct terms....the point being that the unconscious side is not controllable....it just does....

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Those are the correct terms....the point being that the unconscious side is not controllable....it just does....
> 
> Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


I beg to differ. If there were no way to control it, there would be no way to change your shot process in order to improve as an archer. 

In as much as the unconscious side of the aiming and shot process, by very definition, cannot be controlled using conscious thought, it *can *be consciously molded and shaped beforehand through well planned, repetitive practice. Therefore, it *CAN* be controlled.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Scot,
I hate to burst your bubble and glad you looked at my profile, I feel honored. 

But, I don't sell self help CD's. Never had. Never will. So where you get this idea I have no clue. Only thing I have sold on here is bows, sights, releases and arrows.

If you can find anywhere on this site where I have sold a "CD". I will gladly log out and never log in again.

Till then - put it in your pipe and smoke it.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

da white shoe said:


> I beg to differ. If there were no way to control it, there would be no way to change your shot process in order to improve as an archer.
> 
> In as much as the unconscious side of the aiming and shot process, by very definition, cannot be controlled using conscious thought, it *can *be consciously molded and shaped beforehand through well planned, repetitive practice. Therefore, it *CAN* be controlled.


Agreed...moldable, not accessible on demand....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

subconsciously said:


> Scot,
> I hate to burst your bubble and glad you looked at my profile, I feel honored.
> 
> But, I don't sell self help CD's. Never had. Never will. So where you get this idea I have no clue. Only thing I have sold on here is bows, sights, releases and arrows.
> ...



My apologies to you Joe....it is not you...

This is the person...http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1784627&highlight=cure+target+panic


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Scott.Barrett said:


> My apologies to you Joe....it is not you...
> 
> This is the person...http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1784627&highlight=cure+target+panic


You really need to apologize to the OP for hijacking this thread. 

It's fine for you to disagree about subconscious programming, other people employ it and improve their shooting and lives with the results. 

northern *******, the book Core Archery by Larry Wise explains aiming and the use of the conscious mind and the task performing (or subconscious) mind to properly execute a shot. It's twenty bucks well spent. I've never shot more than 9 X's in a row before and this morning before work I was 27/30 with 22 X in a row using Larry's teachings.


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## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks all. I think I will order the book. I'm just struggling on what to put my concentration on, aiming or shot execution.


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## shields642 (Nov 1, 2010)

you could post on here with the question how to boil an egg and people would find something to argue about it haha but ive always been taught by a lot of proffesional shooters which have shot for both hoyt and mathews for many years and the main thing they have always said is control your breathing, work on your grip try fingers lined up or what not to reduce torque and then work on pin placement. some guys tend to hold on the spot for a while and others like me tend to find my spot and release i have never been the type that can hold for a period of time once i find my spot i release because if i focus on a point to long it all goes down hiill many people will claim my way is wrong but it seems to help me to release as soon as my pin is on its mark i know everybody is diffrernt but figgured just giving an option wouldnt hurt


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

I aim hard and studied the shot how Len Cardinal broke it down.It made the most sense to me. Some archers focus more on the execution side which is fine too.Whatever method gives you the purest shot so be it.Lens teachings to me are the most straight forward along with Al Henderson so thats how i built my shot.I dont think we should get into a pissing match which method is better.Furthermore Subconsciously has helped alot of archers on here including myself and has plenty of knowledge about the shot and i dont think his integrity should ve been questioned.


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I aim hard and studied the shot how Len Cardinal broke it down.It made the most sense to me. Some archers focus more on the execution side which is fine too.Whatever method gives you the purest shot so be it.Lens teachings to me are the most straight forward along with Al Henderson so thats how i built my shot.I dont think we should get into a pissing match which method is better.Furthermore Subconsciously has helped alot of archers on here including myself and has plenty of knowledge about the shot and i dont think his integrity should ve been questioned.


X2 :thumbs_up


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I aim hard and studied the shot how Len Cardinal broke it down.It made the most sense to me. Some archers focus more on the execution side which is fine too.Whatever method gives you the purest shot so be it.Lens teachings to me are the most straight forward along with Al Henderson so thats how i built my shot.I dont think we should get into a pissing match which method is better.Furthermore Subconsciously has helped alot of archers on here including myself and has plenty of knowledge about the shot and i dont think his integrity should ve been questioned.


X3 :thumbs_up


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

Scott.Barrett said:


> The issue is not the method...and I completely agree with the examples you gave, but the terminology...
> 
> There is nothing "subconscious" going on here! You are actively aiming and shooting the bow because our wonderful minds are capable of doing many things at once. What we are seeing here is a choice of where to place the focus. When you throw a ball, there is no point where you think to release the ball. You look at where you are trying to throw it and you throw the ball. Again, nothing subconscious, just a built in set of memories on how to do this...
> 
> ...


 the terminology your throwing around is said at its best on post #14 last 4 lines...............this is not the 1800s and we are talking archery not a not scientific settings on psychiatrists the term subconscious is here and will be here in archery forever.. your missing the the simple FACT that your sub is at work.. 24/7 and furthermore,the mind can not do 2 things at once this is where the bad bad target panic FLINCH comes from ..FACT... you try to move the finger, and aim thus this causes a horrible thing... this is as close as it gets to try to do 2 things at once..FACT you must be focused on 1 thing and 1 thing only, everything else must be auto....this is in your sub working, weather you believe it or not and it must be done without thinking about it with your subconscious...while you aim.. great post from everyone aread, ... very nice. white shoe is great too and subconscious who is politically correct. if you wanna chew on someone try me. i deal with target panic every week... AND I DONT SELL CDs ...coach mike farmer


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I'll have a bite then....

The issue with Archery Talk in general is the amount of misinformation that is started and repeated ad nauseum! How can you say something is doing work when that thing does not exist?!?!?

Go look at the definition of what the unconscious mind does...it is where actions are initiated that we attribute to terms like "muscle memory". You get so good at doing something that these patterns are stored and are pulled up in your brain's attempt to respond quicker. So after we do something a couple of thousand time, we have that pattern ingrained IN THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND!!!! There is nothing that is done without thinking, only actions that you don't have your attention focused on! You're still thinking about them! When you are not actively focused, like when you are aiming and just "letting" the release happen, you are able to accomplish what you want!

So as I am typing this, I am reading the words, typing, thinking about some errands I need to run later, etc.....what's this that my mind can't more than one thing at a time? Sure it can....but I can only actively focus on one of them....I just have to let my fingers type, at a 100wpm, because of what? My unconscious mind had been trained on how to touch type! I don't have typing panic, however.....why? Because I am focusing on the words and not what my fingers are doing!


So please reread all of this....we are agreeing on what has to happen, but not the terminology of where it occurs or how it is accessed....google all the definitions yourself and let me know what you find.....

SB




mike 66 said:


> the terminology your throwing around is said at its best on post #14 last 4 lines...............this is not the 1800s and we are talking archery not a not scientific settings on psychiatrists the term subconscious is here and will be here in archery forever.. your missing the the simple FACT that your sub is at work.. 24/7 and furthermore,the mind can not do 2 things at once this is where the bad bad target panic FLINCH comes from ..FACT... you try to move the finger, and aim thus this causes a horrible thing... this is as close as it gets to try to do 2 things at once..FACT you must be focused on 1 thing and 1 thing only, everything else must be auto....this is in your sub working, weather you believe it or not and it must be done without thinking about it with your subconscious...while you aim.. great post from everyone aread, ... very nice. white shoe is great too and subconscious who is politically correct. if you wanna chew on someone try me. i deal with target panic every week...coach mike farmer


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> …The term subconscious is used in many different contexts …
> In everyday speech and popular writing, however, the term is very commonly encountered as a layperson's replacement for the unconscious mind….


We're laymen here, not Phd. psycologists. We understand that the mind operates on several levels. For many years, we've used the terms conscious and subconscious to describe the two that are useful to archers. To most of us, the unconscious mind is what happens after we get punched by Mike Tyson. 

And yes, many thoughts can run through our minds, but we can consciously focus only on one at a time. A psycologist may tell us about that we can think of many things at a time. And I certainly can't refute him. But for archery the word "focus" means one thing at a time. That's what is useful to an archer who is trying to get over target panic or is figuring out the best way to aim. 

"Conscious", "subconscious" and "focus" are terms that are useful to archers. Sure they are not technically correct, but we don't want to study college psycology textbooks so that we can use the precisely correct terms. We want to shoot and shoot well. I'll leave the precise terms to the guys writing papers for the journals that I'll never read.

There are many terms that one group uses differently from other groups. My RN wife won't watch medical TV shows because they use so many terms incorrectly. I cringe when terms in my trade are used wrong. But my wife and I are not going to change anyone. 

Scott, it seems that you are trying to teach us something that we don't care to learn. We don't see where it will help us shoot more X's. I don't doubt that you are correct about the definitions, but we don't care and will continue to use "conscious", "subconscious" and "focus" incorrectly. They work for archers. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

well said Allen, subconscious works for archers ............... end of story.....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

mike 66 said:


> well said Allen, subconscious works for archers ............... end of story.....



Interesting....

Allen....thanks for your honest answer...I'm cringing the same way you are, as an archer! This is right up with the all time greatest, "you should get a back tension release"...anything can be shot with back tension because it is a style, not a release...

Mike...thanks for helping me see the difference between being uninformed and just plain ignorant...your the type of person that is hurting archery every day....


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> ...."you should get a back tension release"....anything can be shot with back tension because it is a style, not a release....


LOL - I agree. That gets almost as much reaction as "instinctive aiming" in the traditional forums.




Scott.Barrett said:


> Mike...thanks for helping me see the difference between being uninformed and just plain ignorant...your the type of person that is hurting archery every day....


Scott, I strongly disagree. I've gotten to know Mike through posts and pm's on this forum. IMO He is what is right about archery. He helps more archers here and with his coaching than 99% of the rest of us. If I lived close enough that I could work with him, I'd be a much better archer. He sometimes comes off as an old curmudgeon, but his archery knowledge is sound. 

It's all about archers helping archers. It's tough when the vocabulary gets in the way.

Allen


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Allen,

I greatly appreciate your posts on this matter and others....I took some time last night and this morning to go back and read a couple hundred posts from both you and Mike...they are filled with great information based on experience which is the true value of AT. I get concerned whenever I see someone hit a "stopping" point in a quest for knowledge, especially when we go on to teach others. It's not a point of whether we agree on terminology or not, but the refusal to accept that there might be more out there than we thought, that their might be a better way, or maybe just to confirm what we already knew....


My hope in putting all these posts on this relatively simple topic is that someone will see it and want to explore it more, perhaps find a better explanation and come back and teach us...then we all gain....


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