# Stabs, "Float," and the Blind technique [again]



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Is it possible to post a picture or a video of you shooting with your setup? It would be easier to assess your situation.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

What connects you to the ground? Your shoes can cause you to waver. What power lens is in your scope? A magnified lens can cause you to float on the 10 ring. Your stabilizer system slows dow your natural rhythms so you can have more time to execute your shot while in the 10 ring. If you shoot well with no stabilization, great you save money. 

I have a G5 Prime Alloy with a 12" Bee Stinger Maxx Hunter front stabilizer and a non magnified Tommy Hogg single pin sight. I shoot this bow very well and at 20 yards and as good as my fully outfitted target bows. At 55 yards the target rigs are superior and at 110 yards no contest at all the fully outfitted rigs rule the day.

Blind Butt ( shooting with your eyes closed ) is a very valuable technique. This technique allows you to feel the shot without the influence of your vision ( feel the force, Luke ). Something else that is an interesting experiment is to shoot blind butt in your bear feet...


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm not sure, the website isn't too "blind posting photos" friendly, and I'll have to have someone go through my pics to see if I have one of the tactile pointer on the hand (all my photos are simply named with lots of numbers, no descriptions as I don't look at them). 

But in general and just as a theory, if a sighted shooter had a tactile reference that eliminated movement of the bow hand, would they need the front stab they normally use? 

I don't notice a difference in group sizes. I can't speak as to whether I'm hitting where the bow is aiming. Another difference in the shot with or without is when I use the front bar I do get a nice roll forward of the bow after the shot, which gives me a better sense if I gripped the bow during the shot.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Tooltech said:


> What connects you to the ground? Your shoes can cause you to waver. What power lens is in your scope? A magnified lens can cause you to float on the 10 ring. Your stabilizer system slows dow your natural rhythms so you can have more time to execute your shot while in the 10 ring. If you shoot well with no stabilization, great you save money.
> 
> I have a G5 Prime Alloy with a 12" Bee Stinger Maxx Hunter front stabilizer and a non magnified Tommy Hogg single pin sight. I shoot this bow very well and at 20 yards and as good as my fully outfitted target bows. At 55 yards the target rigs are superior and at 110 yards no contest at all the fully outfitted rigs rule the day.
> 
> Blind Butt ( shooting with your eyes closed ) is a very valuable technique. This technique allows you to feel the shot without the influence of your vision ( feel the force, Luke ). Something else that is an interesting experiment is to shoot blind butt in your bear feet...



No sights, scopes, magnifiers, peeps, and every butt I shoot at is a blind butt shooting drill... I am 100% blind... Yes I understand the fully outfitted rig helps the sighted shooter, especially at longer yards... perhaps the question from another angle... 

A hunter drawing on a deer is able to gently put the back of her/her bow hand against a small broken branch on a tree, in between the proximal knuckles of the middle and ring fingers. Just enough pressure that you know if your bow hand is moving, and this whole set up lines up perfectly with the kill shot. Would you still have the float if you had the broken branch reference of bow hand movement and if not do you think you would still need the stabilizers you currently use?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ShootingBlind said:


> But in general and just as a theory, if a sighted shooter had a tactile reference that eliminated movement of the bow hand, would they need the front stab they normally use?
> 
> I don't notice a difference in group sizes. I can't speak as to whether I'm hitting where the bow is aiming. Another difference in the shot with or without is when I use the front bar I do get a nice roll forward of the bow after the shot, which gives me a better sense if I gripped the bow during the shot.


Pretty interesting question. As a sighted shooter, I generally use my stabilizers to perform the folowing functions (there are other functions, but they are specific to the individual shooter and differ greatly): 
1) To ensure the bow is balanced (bubble level) when coming to full draw
2) to be able to "get onto" the target quicker
3) To ensure the bow remains level while at full draw
4) To minimize the amount of natural float
5) To ensure the bow reacts in a predictable manner at execution 

As a non-sighted shooter, you're using a reference on your bow hand to establish your bow placement. However, this is not supporting the weight of the bow in 3-dimensional space; your body's musculature is still performing that function. So, you would still have to make sure the bow remained balanced for you from draw through execution. 

If you breathe, you have a certain amount of float while at full draw, your body just perceives it differently than mine. So, I would think, you would still benefit, from a mechanical standpoint, to do what you can to balance your bow, establish the type of hold you'd prefer, lessen the amount of float you feel, and to allow the bow to react as you'd like during your shot execution. You cannot do all of this without stabilizers without also introducing a lot of additional muscular tension and movement into your shot routine.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Without pictures or video, or a detailed understanding of you process it is very difficult to answer your questions. I did a little experimentation supporting the bow side at one point. Unfortunately it was very short lived and I have no data. I actually used the front bar to rest on a tripod.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Re-post from your other thread:
I shoot my sight on it's full 9" extension with a 4x lens and when things are going really well my float is inside the X on an NFAA target, the only way to achieve that is through a lot of mass on the end of stabilizers. If my sight had no magnification and was over-top of my hand right at the pivot point of the grip it would probably look entirely motionless and stabilization wouldn't change it much. However the accuracy of the system would still be higher with the stabilization even if the visible motion was the same.

-Grant


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, in the hands of a really good shooter a simple hunting bow with no stabs on it and hunting arrows and a 5 pin sight can be very very very accurate. By getting a slider sight and a lens and a fully set up and customized set of 33 inch front stab and 15 inch rear stab and target specific arrow what that archery has done is trouble shoot all the little things he can with his equipment so that he has a even better chance of hitting perfectly. 

The minute you start taking those things away and go back to a bow without them on it you are taking away their effects. To me the fact that you can't tell a difference between your 20 something inch front stab and it not even being on the bow tells me that you are either not shooting well enough to see the effects or it doesn't have enought weight on it to feel a difference or it is a marginal length that doesn't offer that much stabilization. 

I shoot a 33 inch front rod with 16 oz on it and a 15 inch rear bar with 33 ounces on it and there is a major difference in accuracy and feel over my hunting bow that has nothing on it.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

montigre said:


> Pretty interesting question. As a sighted shooter, I generally use my stabilizers to perform the folowing functions (there are other functions, but they are specific to the individual shooter and differ greatly):
> 1) To ensure the bow is balanced (bubble level) when coming to full draw
> 2) to be able to "get onto" the target quicker
> 3) To ensure the bow remains level while at full draw
> ...



The kind of insight I am hoping for. While I guess I knew the aspects of stabilizers you list, I really had to read it to realize it. This is much better than "because I said so..." Thank you.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> Well, in the hands of a really good shooter a simple hunting bow with no stabs on it and hunting arrows and a 5 pin sight can be very very very accurate. By getting a slider sight and a lens and a fully set up and customized set of 33 inch front stab and 15 inch rear stab and target specific arrow what that archery has done is trouble shoot all the little things he can with his equipment so that he has a even better chance of hitting perfectly.
> 
> The minute you start taking those things away and go back to a bow without them on it you are taking away their effects. To me the fact that you can't tell a difference between your 20 something inch front stab and it not even being on the bow tells me that you are either not shooting well enough to see the effects or it doesn't have enought weight on it to feel a difference or it is a marginal length that doesn't offer that much stabilization.
> 
> I shoot a 33 inch front rod with 16 oz on it and a 15 inch rear bar with 33 ounces on it and there is a major difference in accuracy and feel over my hunting bow that has nothing on it.




Well, (1) Yes I am a horrible shot, I accept that, and (2) I do realize, although I really don't think about it much, stabs have other purposes besides float. I just noticed that with or without, my group size during a session don't change. One night shooting 10 yard bale drills I was having a particularly solid night and hit two RHs, one with and one without the stab. I also busted 4 additional nocks, but that was a 3/1 w/wo ratio. The opinion I'm looking for is whether a sighted shooter would use the stabs they currently use if they had that tactile bow hand reference.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Re-post from your other thread:
> I shoot my sight on it's full 9" extension with a 4x lens and when things are going really well my float is inside the X on an NFAA target, the only way to achieve that is through a lot of mass on the end of stabilizers. If my sight had no magnification and was over-top of my hand right at the pivot point of the grip it would probably look entirely motionless and stabilization wouldn't change it much. However the accuracy of the system would still be higher with the stabilization even if the visible motion was the same.
> 
> -Grant



Thank you Grant. Now what about if instead of looking through a sight at your bow hand, you felt it? In a "sighting" system (we'll say "aiming system" where you could feel if your bow hand drifted any direction while at full draw... Yes, you would still need stabilization, but would you need as much, or the current weight distribution you currently use? I do still run [what I'll call] a side bar, pointed straight down along the lower limb. I use it for a better feel of vertical.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

What is your method of aiming? Do you have a spotter?


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> What is your method of aiming? Do you have a spotter?



I use a spotter during "competitions" (other than leagues, where I just shoot to work on stuff lie another practice) to tell me during ends POIs so I can make adjustments without wasting the whole end. 

To aim, I use a camera tripod. I place two legs parallel to the shooting line and the third leg back. On the camera tray I bolt on an "L" bracket with a small bot that when properly adjusted touches the back of my bow hand when I aim. This set up allows for elevation adjustments by way of the tripod and windage adjustments by moving the L bracket. 

This rig sits into a 't bracket made out of 1x4s and placed on the floor. Mine has 1" holes to set the tripod feet into. Attached to this T frame is my foot locator board, which is a 2x4 with horizontal pegs I place my feet up against. This allows me to place my feet in the same place and same orientation with every shot. This is important for the accuracy/adjustments of the tripod (moving either foot for example changes the aim of the shot). The T frame and foot locator are then duct taped to the floor (indoors) or staked to the ground (outdoors). For my design and physique, I end up standing about 4" behind the third leg shooting over the right leg. 

For my own sake, so I can practice alone, I run a paracord-ish line from the T frame to the bale so I may travel back and forth using my white cane (remembering to stretch the cane far forward otherwise I walk into the arrows before reaching the bale... a lesson learned in one round of shots). I line up this cord with the X of my target so I can get a better feel of where and how wide my groups are. When I'm scoring I also have a paracord with e clips to mark each ring that I hang from a golf tee in the X. Not 100% accurate way of scoring, but close enough to give an idea. 

I hope that was clear... it is when you've seen it, not so much if you haven't. Thank you for asking.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ShootingBlind said:


> This is probably the wrong forum (would it help if I said "to compete"), but I tried the general discussion with no opinions (and feel free to just say "stupid thought").
> 
> So, I was shooting the other night, nothing planned just flinging arrows for fun, when I started thinking about stabs and float, and how my *group sizes don't really change with or without my [cough] 24" front bar (which is only 24" if you measure the carbon). *My assumption for the sighted is that a lot of float comes from the extended bow hand, but I know for a fact because of the tactile aiming stand that my bow hand doesn't move (my awful groups come for all the other flaws in my shot, but the bow hand is stationary). So, to the sighted, if you had a physical reference to your bow hand and eliminated any movement there, *would you still run a front bar?* I still use my side bar, pointed straight down to give a better feel of the bow's vertical (like a clock pendulum), but for now (and this could just be my horrible shot) the only thing my front bar for is to use it like a blind person's cane to find my shooting stand, and to rest the bow on when I'm waiting to shoot, like a kickstand.
> 
> ...


Like a few here, more information would be nice. Give shooting rig and how it's weighted, front and back. The back straight down is questionable to me. 
Of one of my bows, I've tried Bernie's V mount and Mini Silencers fully weighted. I used a side bar, 10" long with 6 ounces. And I've shot without any back bars and it shoots great regardless. Just a 30" front stab and just about any weight I want....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Holy crap, I didn't realize you were actually blind when I made my first post. Cool, I am glad that you are shooting and listening to how you aim with spotters and the marks on the floor and tri pod are sweet.

I just don't have much experience with shooting with my eyes closed to give any worthy advice, I guess the only thing I could offer on your actual beginning question is that I have been battling my eyes blurring during scoring rounds on a regular basis for the last year or so because my use contacts and in the morning my eyes seem to water quite a bit for a few hours and during some shots they just blur out during my shot window. 

So what I have noticed is that my float pattern is very smooth and I don't feel anything, I can see my pin floating but my muscles aren't correcting the pin so there is no connection between the muscles and the pin. So basically when I start my shot and my pin is floating directly on the spot and my eyes begin to blur I can just continue the shot and when I blink them to reset the blur my pin will still be on the spot. Sometimes the blink doesn't work and I go a good 2 seconds before actually seeing my pin again on the spot and it will almost always still be there. To me this is something you should give a thought to because you are in a way forced to choose all of the target panic issues that we try to eliminate. Such as paying attention to what your grip is doing and feeling and correcting it as the shot continues to progress, that whole process is totally ignored by most of us and we focus visually on the target and not what what the pin is doing.

To me I would consider coming to anchor and settling into your tri pod and then just executing the shot without any pause or adjustment. So what that does is it frees up your execution from trying to correct things that you are feeling during the shot which are going to have flinches attached. Secondly what this is going to do is put all of your success to the shot based on coming to a perfect anchor and a really good setup on the tri pod, if you do a good job of getting settled into the anchor and tri pod then you will have a good impact. Now that is more along the lines of what we are trying to accomplish as a sighted shooter because the moment that we try to influence what we are seeing we are screwed.

Now that I realize that you are blind and are relying on feel to shoot your bow I have a strong gut feeling that a heavy bow is your friend just like it is for us because you don't want to feel what is happening and you want the bow to be very solid because for you the moment that you decide to continue the shot by starting your firing engine is a commitment that has no visual input connected to it to help the cause. So getting a perfect setup just before starting the firing engine is the key and then having the heavier bow with full stabs can help keep the bow right there in a nice float without any extra wiggling around screwing up the execution.

As far as your tri pod sighting thing, have you considered using your pinky knuckle as your reference point to touch the tripod bracket? And also just sitting here I am thinking that finding a section of skin that isn't squishy could be your ticket to even better accuracy because squishy skin touching your bracket adds up to a 1/8 inch of movement as you are trying to hold. that is why with a 45 degree grip that we teach all the time your pinky main knuckle stick out there really nice and then with a concave point of impact that kind of cups the knuckle could give you the up and down reference and windage reference that you need, the skin that goes over the tip of the pinky joint is very thin but also not very squishy and more leathery and it is fairly sensitive so you can feel where you are at. So with a quarter inch wide concave contact point touching both sides of the pinky joint towards the tip of the joint you could possibly do a better job of achieving that perfect anchor and contact with the tri pod and then just run your engine without trying to feel the grip during the shot and what is going on.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ShootingBlind said:


> Thank you Grant. Now what about if instead of looking through a sight at your bow hand, you felt it? In a "sighting" system (we'll say "aiming system" where you could feel if your bow hand drifted any direction while at full draw... Yes, you would still need stabilization, but would you need as much, or the current weight distribution you currently use? I do still run [what I'll call] a side bar, pointed straight down along the lower limb. I use it for a better feel of vertical.


I do not believe a tactile reference would be as precise as the sight pin above my hand and nowhere even close to the precision of a magnified lens on the end of a 9" extension.

This may simply be a case where you do not have enough aiming precision to take full advantage of the potential accuracy of the system. I do believe there are ways which you could set-up the equipment to be more precise and stabilization is part of it.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ShootingBlind said:


> I use a spotter during "competitions" (other than leagues, where I just shoot to work on stuff lie another practice) to tell me during ends POIs so I can make adjustments without wasting the whole end.
> 
> To aim, I use a camera tripod. I place two legs parallel to the shooting line and the third leg back. On the camera tray I bolt on an "L" bracket with a small bot that when properly adjusted touches the back of my bow hand when I aim. This set up allows for elevation adjustments by way of the tripod and windage adjustments by moving the L bracket.
> 
> ...


Very clear, thanks. I was wondering how you repeat your positioning for each end/shot. If you could have someone take a picture of the tripod setup and post it that would be helpful. I think the only valid way of answering your original question would be to try and somewhat duplicate your front support. As a sighted shooter, one could conceivably test out the with/without stabilizer impact. By supporting the bow the dynamics do change so at this point we are really just guessing. You could perhaps do some pictures or video with a smartphone and text it to me and I'll post it here. I'll PM you my number.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> Very clear, thanks. I was wondering how you repeat your positioning for each end/shot. If you could have someone take a picture of the tripod setup and post it that would be helpful. I think the only valid way of answering your original question would be to try and somewhat duplicate your front support. As a sighted shooter, one could conceivably test out the with/without stabilizer impact. By supporting the bow the dynamics do change so at this point we are really just guessing. You could perhaps do some pictures or video with a smartphone and text it to me and I'll post it here. I'll PM you my number.



My next round of photos will probably be this weekend if I hit the range when it's empty (head to toe shots take up a few lanes) and one way or another I'll get them up here... As long as we don't turn it into a "How's my form" thread because yeah yeah I know...  Thanks.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> I do not believe a tactile reference would be as precise as the sight pin above my hand and nowhere even close to the precision of a magnified lens on the end of a 9" extension.
> 
> This may simply be a case where you do not have enough aiming precision to take full advantage of the potential accuracy of the system. I do believe there are ways which you could set-up the equipment to be more precise and stabilization is part of it.
> 
> -Grant



I absolutely agree sir, but in that nearly improbably chance all the lights in the building go out... I win.  

Agree stabilizers will be a part of that system to a better shot, I'm just not seeing it in groups at the moment. I'm going to spend a day playing around with set ups from bare bow to as extreme stabilization as my equipment allows on both my compound and recurve and concentrate solely on the bow and not the execution of the shot... While poorly worded I noticed this anomaly in my own groups and was pondering the "what if" scenario.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> Holy crap, I didn't realize you were actually blind when I made my first post. Cool, I am glad that you are shooting and listening to how you aim with spotters and the marks on the floor and tri pod are sweet.
> 
> I just don't have much experience with shooting with my eyes closed to give any worthy advice, I guess the only thing I could offer on your actual beginning question is that I have been battling my eyes blurring during scoring rounds on a regular basis for the last year or so because my use contacts and in the morning my eyes seem to water quite a bit for a few hours and during some shots they just blur out during my shot window.
> 
> ...



Just a general reply for the thread, a more detailed response to shot execution in a PM, hope that's okay as the PM editor is a little easier to deal with using my screen reading software. 

Yes, I've tried the pinky knuckle as a reference, and many blind shooters do use it. I don't yet have the muscle memory to bring my bow hand right to the correct spot for the tactile pointer so for me between the middle two knuckles gives me more room for error. I fI personally aimed for m pinky and missed high I would be up over the top of the tripodAnother theory actually recommends between the index and middle knuckles. It has to do with the center of roll of the bow; it's lines up better with the deepest part of the grip. Presumedly the farther away you get from this pint the more the top of the bow flops over. I don't feel it, but for me raising my hand up just that one more knuckle gives me a bit more needed clearance between my stand and the bow. It just seems in that upper knuckle position I'm always hitting the stand with my lower limb; the middle position gives just a touch more vertical and right position. 

I'm probably the first person you've, or anyone, has actually recommended target panic, if I'm reading your response correctly. Who knew my one less thing to worry about would be to worry about one more thing. 

Thank you for the insight, it really helps far more than you can know.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Like a few here, more information would be nice. Give shooting rig and how it's weighted, front and back. The back straight down is questionable to me.
> Of one of my bows, I've tried Bernie's V mount and Mini Silencers fully weighted. I used a side bar, 10" long with 6 ounces. And I've shot without any back bars and it shoots great regardless. Just a 30" front stab and just about any weight I want....



I know the straight down bar is unconventional and counter intuitive, and I actually posted this question on AT before I tried it... But I can't use a bubble level or see when I roll the bow left to right, and in my earlier days this was a huge problem. When the compound lets off into the valley and I'm holding into the back wall using a release on a D loop I lose all feel of the roll of the bow. The straight down stab, a 12" bar with 4.76oz (leave it to my particular brand of stab to not make 1oz weights, but rather 0.88oz) gives just about enough mass below the riser I get a decent feel when the bow isn't vertical. It's one of those "only that blind guy would do that" kind of things.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, what I was getting at, if the bow is weighted wrong you're going to experience some oddities.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ShootingBlind said:


> I know the straight down bar is unconventional and counter intuitive, and I actually posted this question on AT before I tried it... But I can't use a bubble level or see when I roll the bow left to right, and in my earlier days this was a huge problem. When the compound lets off into the valley and I'm holding into the back wall using a release on a D loop I lose all feel of the roll of the bow. The straight down stab, a 12" bar with 4.76oz (leave it to my particular brand of stab to not make 1oz weights, but rather 0.88oz) gives just about enough mass below the riser I get a decent feel when the bow isn't vertical. It's one of those "only that blind guy would do that" kind of things.


In keeping with what Padgett suggested about setup importance, perhaps you might want to try a set of V-Bars weighted as such that they set up level automatically rather than rely on feel. I think the more you can get the bow to balance out by itself the more you can concentrate on your shot process. Even if it were not perfectly level, consistency would be a big help...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am really enjoying reading about how you do things and I am glad that you enjoy shooting as much as anyone else and obviously have a passion. To me you are the ultimate close your eyes and visualize mentally what just happened and then repeat it perfectly again. For us we let the visual sight of the pin moving create all of our control issues and for you that doesn't exist.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, what I was getting at, if the bow is weighted wrong you're going to experience some oddities.



I am an oddity


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ShootingBlind said:


> I am an oddity


Ha-ha....I love your sense of humor!! :tea:


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> In keeping with what Padgett suggested about setup importance, perhaps you might want to try a set of V-Bars weighted as such that they set up level automatically rather than rely on feel. I think the more you can get the bow to balance out by itself the more you can concentrate on your shot process. Even if it were not perfectly level, consistency would be a big help...



To SonnyThomas as well (I still don't have that multiple quote thing down et), the straight down bar was the first and easiest solution. I've only been back into shooting since February after a year off... I'm still going though the growing pains. Previously the only stab I used was a TAS Delta (5"ish with picatinny rails for my laser sight... the laser sight is another long story but it does have a use). I didn't know, and still don't know side bars back bars V-bars. I have considered a V-bar set up as I think it would accomplish the same purpose as my vertical bar. Think I once asked ATers this question too but didn't get an answer. Just going to bite the bullet and try it... It's on my next Lancaster gotta order list. My "new" [to me] bow just arrived a few minutes ago and I can feel it has a rearward facing mount lower on the riser and I'm thinking this may be more ideal of a mount for the pendulum effect I want. Unfortunately this is a "hunting" shops town and no one even carries a V-bar mount. 

Thanks all,
Kelly


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I like a bow with a heavy pendulum effect as well. One of the best ways of doing that is an angled quick-detach on the long rod. That will get the mass lower in the bow.
Dual low-mounted back bars will also help since they will get the mass down low but also to the rear where it is needed to provide stability.

-Grant


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the nice things about a v bar setup is that you can mount them nice and low and a little wide and the bow will sit on them and keep the cam off the floor and you don't have to use a pro pod on the limb. This could be handy for you.

Also wider rear bars with a good amount of weight can really help a bow sit perfect without any effort to get a bubble centered so again this could be a nice help.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> One of the nice things about a v bar setup is that you can mount them nice and low and a little wide and the bow will sit on them and keep the cam off the floor and you don't have to use a pro pod on the limb. This could be handy for you.
> 
> Also wider rear bars with a good amount of weight can really help a bow sit perfect without any effort to get a bubble centered so again this could be a nice help.



I considered wider rear bars, my thought was that while they would resist rolling due to inertia would they naturally pull the bow to vertical? 

Like I mentioned before, my "new" bow has a low rear facing bushing and I'm thinking a V-bar mounted here will also give me what I like for the pendulum effect. I'm thinking I will get the benefit of the V-bar plus the point of influence is lower on the riser.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> I like a bow with a heavy pendulum effect as well. One of the best ways of doing that is an angled quick-detach on the long rod. That will get the mass lower in the bow.
> Dual low-mounted back bars will also help since they will get the mass down low but also to the rear where it is needed to provide stability.
> 
> -Grant



I considered this too, but the person who helps me set up IS NOT a shooter of any kind, so to facilitate the set up of my tripod I use a pistol laser sight mounted on a small picatinny railed stab, so she knows if I'm aiming at the walls or ceiling.. an angled DQD makes this unusable. Best case would be two QDs, attaching the angled one to the straight one. The current QD for the laser is modified so I don't have to twist the stab to connect it so the laser orientation is consistent. 

I will also give this a try. Thanks.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ShootingBlind said:


> I considered this too, but the person who helps me set up IS NOT a shooter of any kind, so to facilitate the set up of my tripod I use a pistol laser sight mounted on a small picatinny railed stab, so she knows if I'm aiming at the walls or ceiling.. an angled DQD makes this unusable. Best case would be two QDs, attaching the angled one to the straight one. The current QD for the laser is modified so I don't have to twist the stab to connect it so the laser orientation is consistent.
> 
> I will also give this a try. Thanks.


Mount a picatinny rail to the sight mounting holes. Or depending on how long of a surface your current one requires just mount it to the quick detach itself.

I'm a hobby machinist and although my shop is currently being moved over the next month or so if this is something you need produced I would be happy to do it for the cost of materials.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I would totally take grantmac's offer on that one because having the lazer mounted on the riser where the sight goes will show much less movement than it being out on the stab. Then your stab setup can change without messing with the lazer.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Boom:
https://nordiccomp.com/product/picatinny-rail-for-barrel-clamp/

Just need a way to keep it indexed. Some sort of custom square washer which goes behind the other sight bolt might do it. Or a healthy dose of loc-tite on the single bolt and perhaps some mounting tape behind it.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Kelly, I don't think it has been established. Are you male or female?


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> Kelly, I don't think it has been established. Are you male or female?



Ha, I am established as a guy. A him. A dude without the "ette"


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Boom:
> https://nordiccomp.com/product/picatinny-rail-for-barrel-clamp/
> 
> Just need a way to keep it indexed. Some sort of custom square washer which goes behind the other sight bolt might do it. Or a healthy dose of loc-tite on the single bolt and perhaps some mounting tape behind it.
> ...



My current system is a TAS Delta stabilizer (5" ish) that has three accessory rails on it. My QD is a Shrewd. On the stab mounting bolt I put a nut and washer, then installed the disconnect nut with Loc-Tite. That way instead of twisting the stab to tighten the disconnect I can just lock it down with the nut. 

I will certainly consider mounting it on the sight mount, and really appreciate your offer. What I like about the current set up is it's easily removed. I recently shot a tournament where I left it on and the shooter next to me got a little bent out of shape because I had a laser sight and was shooting a bare bow class... 

When I get more time I'll PM you about the mount. Thanks.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ShootingBlind said:


> My current system is a TAS Delta stabilizer (5" ish) that has three accessory rails on it. My QD is a Shrewd. On the stab mounting bolt I put a nut and washer, then installed the disconnect nut with Loc-Tite. That way instead of twisting the stab to tighten the disconnect I can just lock it down with the nut.
> 
> I will certainly consider mounting it on the sight mount, and really appreciate your offer. What I like about the current set up is it's easily removed. I recently shot a tournament where I left it on and the shooter next to me got a little bent out of shape because I had a laser sight and was shooting a bare bow class...
> 
> When I get more time I'll PM you about the mount. Thanks.


That link I sent likely won't take any modification to work, plug and play with a 10-32 machine screw.

Are you only using a 5" front stab? If so that is your problem right there.

-Grant


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ShootingBlind said:


> Ha, I am established as a guy. A him. A dude without the "ette"


ette? So not Smurfette or Sassette, but could be a Smurf?  
.
.
.
Here; "I didn't know, and still don't know side bars back bars V-bars. I have considered a V-bar set up as I think it would accomplish the same purpose as my vertical bar"
There is Thread in the Inter/Advan forum on stabs. Long, confusing at times and of course everyone has their opinion. I have two bow set ups, one with a single back and one with a dual back bars. Both were setup/established thru George Ryals's, aka Griv, stab procedure. 
From his write up and then from another write up he did.
_"The formula for finding the rear rod weight is Length x weight, or length of your long rod multiplied by the weight on its tip. You will then divide that number by the length of your rear rod. For example I have a 33” B-Stinger XL Premiere on my Hoyt Contender, and I have a 12 inch side rod. I have 5 oz on the end of my long rod, so 33” x 5oz = 165”oz. I will divide 165 by my side rod length (12”) and I arrive at 13.5oz. I just round up to 14oz because the B-Stinger weights come in one ounce increments. You may be thinking, “WOW, 14oz is a lot of weight.” If that weight is too much for you to hold up, you can use longer rods and reduce the weight. If I wanted the same leverage against torque but with lighter weight I can use the same formula. Currently I have 165”ounces. If I change my 33” stabilizer to a 40”, I can reduce the weight by an ounce and still have the same leverage. If I switch to a 15” side rod I can reduce the weight by 3 oz. A good rule of thumb to remember is “twice the distance, half the weight.” _

Still Griv;
Formula is as follows is still just a in the Ball Park…..

length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"

Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.

You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.

You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ShootingBlind said:


> Ha, I am established as a guy. A him. A dude without the "ette"


&#55356;&#57263;&#55356;&#57263;&#55356;&#57263;&#55357;&#56397;


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

Kelly, VERY, very interesting reading about your set-up. I too would love to see a photo of how you aim, hold your bow, the tripod, etc...

Kev


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> That link I sent likely won't take any modification to work, plug and play with a 10-32 machine screw.
> 
> Are you only using a 5" front stab? If so that is your problem right there.
> 
> -Grant



No, I put the laser stab on long enough to line up the tripod and shoot maybe 5 (usually less) just to make sure it's ballpark, then I pop it off and run the regular front bar, which is 24" plus whatever the dampener and weights are. At the tournament in question I had installed the longer front bar to the end of the laser stab to evaluate any differences. I currently shoot leagues and "tournaments" as an opportunity to get more feedback- having a spotter giving immediate feedback every shot and having the score to compare to other setups and their scores.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> ette? So not Smurfette or Sassette, but could be a Smurf?
> .
> .
> .
> ...



As a child growing up in Germany I was always "concerned" by the fact that there was one Papa Smurf, one Smurfette, and 97 other Smurffs... 

As for the stab formulas, the math is really easy for me. Several physics classes, especially as they relate to sports performance... Result of a pole vaulter jumping with the wrong pole; amount of force it takes to rip an ACL based on attachment points; how long the spring of a pogo stick is based on jumper's weight and time and force measure on a force plate... Not disputing the formula at all, but I personally would bias the formula towards the front bar to get the bow feel (a forward pitch or roll forward) after the shotThen, depending on the feel you are looking for, the math changes a bit as the angle between the front bar tip and back bar tip changes.. Admit it [everyone], your stabs weren't what they are now in your first three months  All the advice is great, that last was meant in humor. I'm a theory kind of guy [yes, guy ) and the better I understand the theories and the "what happens ifs," the easier it will be to find what I want based on what I need. 

Smurfs... Now that song is stuck in my head... La la lala la la.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

mainehunt said:


> Kelly, VERY, very interesting reading about your set-up. I too would love to see a photo of how you aim, hold your bow, the tripod, etc...
> 
> Kev



I'll find some or get some new ones as my form has changed a bit, and try to get them up... probably in a new thread. I know I have some, I just need a sighted friend to go through them.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

ShootingBlind said:


> As a child growing up in Germany I was always "concerned" by the fact that there was *one Papa Smurf, one Smurfette, and 97 other Smurffs... *


Sounds like old Papa Smurf had it made..........LOL!


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

That shooting guy's shooting gizmo... Hope it shows as this appears to be another blind unfriendly AT feature. 

Kelly_Shooting.jpeg


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Shooting Blind's setup*

Kelly sent me a picture of his setup so I'm posting it for him. It's hard to see the mount but it looks like a simple hand rest mounted to a tri pod with foot placement repeatability. If the hand simply rests on the mount somehow (hard to see) then I have to assume stabilization would help. If it is a rigid and/or secured hand placement then not so much. From a form perspective you look respectable, although that finger ready to drop like a guillotine kind of scares me. You might work on anchor as well as your string does not touch your nose. A little lower with the anchor should fix this.

Also, with regard to your bow setup. Sometimes pictures can be deceiving, but if I had to guess I'd say your nocking point is quite a bit low. While your arrow looks almost level, your bow is tilted forward quite a bit.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Nocking point*

I took the liberty of editing your picture to show the nocking point alignment and it does look low. Once again, could be camera angle but it is worth checking out.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks EPLC... The setup in no way "supports" the hand it just lightly touches the pointer on the stand, however I can feel the slightest movements of the bowhand. I'm not sure of the angle of the shot; a "straight on" picture would probably be the most telling but I don't draw a bow without an arrow nocked and... well... 

Not sure which finger is the concern if anyone could elaborate. 

Finally, this pic is about 2 or 3 months old; since then the bow shoulder has come down and more in line with the torso, the draw hand anchor has come down to just under the ear and against the jaw bone; string now touches the nose and the corner of the mouth (the second only by coincidence and only when I'm not smiling  and the stance is narrower and slightly opened up (back foot is now about 2" farther forward). Also think since then DL is 1/2" shorter... used to feel like I was drawhand anchoring all the way around back on my spine. 

Will try a video when I catch the club empty (photo sessions take up several lanes) 

Thanks again


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> I took the liberty of editing your picture to show the nocking point alignment and it does look low. Once again, could be camera angle but it is worth checking out.



This bow has been retired to backup status, but I will take a square to it and check it out.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ShootingBlind said:


> This bow has been retired to backup status, but I will take a square to it and check it out.


I really appreciate seeing your shooting set up--- it is very utilitarian and cool! I do have to wonder though; why, as a blind archer, do you have a peep sight on your string???


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

NO WAY! IS THAT WHAT THAT IS?!? About 6" above my D loop? And people look through that? I honestly didn't know. Anyone and everyone may feel free to call me a jack "donkey" [keeping it 10 year-old daughter approved], but I thought it was some sort of string separator... a string quick disconnect. After closer inspection I can now feel that it is in fact "in" the strings as opposed to being connected to two end loops in the string. You ma'am have now forced me to go back through all my old posts and apologize for every time I screamed "NO SIGHTS NO PEEPS!" I feel like such a jamoke! 

Seriously, thank you, I honestly didn't know. I can only assume there was one in the old strings (I had the strings replaced when I bought it) and the shop simply replicated its position. At 1:30am I'm out inspecting the primary bow... no such audacities there  

Thank you again, this is why I like the intermediate/advance comp forum over the general population forum.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ShootingBlind said:


> NO WAY! IS THAT WHAT THAT IS?!? About 6" above my D loop? And people look through that? I honestly didn't know. Anyone and everyone may feel free to call me a jack "donkey" [keeping it 10 year-old daughter approved], but I thought it was some sort of string separator... a string quick disconnect. After closer inspection I can now feel that it is in fact "in" the strings as opposed to being connected to two end loops in the string. You ma'am have now forced me to go back through all my old posts and apologize for every time I screamed "NO SIGHTS NO PEEPS!" I feel like such a jamoke!
> 
> Seriously, thank you, I honestly didn't know. I can only assume there was one in the old strings (I had the strings replaced when I bought it) and the shop simply replicated its position. At 1:30am I'm out inspecting the primary bow... no such audacities there
> 
> Thank you again, this is why I like the intermediate/advance comp forum over the general population forum.


 Thank you---I needed a good chuckle this morning!!


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Feel free to laugh at me any time, that's what I'm here for.


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