# Stuck At The Bottom of the DOT



## hayman (Sep 9, 2004)

Someone told me this weekend that a possible cure for having the sight stuck at 6:00 of the spot is to change the tiller a little but he was uncertain as to if you need to tighten or loosen the top or bottom limb. Anyone have experience with this type of tuning?

I am shooting a 2003 ProTec with LX limbs and am sure my draw length is okay, if anything it might be a little to short. The cams are timed according to the timing marks.

Can having a short draw cause this problem? Can something else cause this?

Thanks
Bill


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

I am not sure. As a matter of fact, I was just going to question what to measure to be sure you had proper tiller adjustment, which I will do after this answer. 

If the bow has been paper tune, that would be a starting step. Then I would go to shooting a vertical and horizontal line as outlined in Easton tuning guide. This method will establish the true center shot for the bow and arrows assuming you are a release shooter. 

Adjusting one limb bolt will affect center shot, but if the bow is bullet holing in paper, I would not think the limb poundage could be off that far, unless there were some visual out of squareness with the arrow.

After that, if you are still dropping low, you have a form issue, IMO.


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## hayman (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorry, I guess I should have said that this is during the aiming process. The dot on my lens will be stuck rock solid just below the spot on the target. The bow feels like it weighs two tons and seems like it is impossible to get the dot anywhere near the "X".

Arrows are flying nicely, no problem with arrow flight.


Bill


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

hayman said:


> The dot on my lens will be stuck rock solid just below the spot on the target. The bow feels like it weighs two tons and seems like it is impossible to get the dot anywhere near the "X".
> 
> Bill


You can read http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/TargetPanic/TargPan.html
You will maybe find some interesting ideas.
I bought the book, and must say that it's a very positive approach of this kind of problems.


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## JoBob (May 24, 2005)

uh oh target panic!!
Seriously, do a search on target panic. Theres lots of good advice about it on other threads.


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## Tafkas (May 22, 2002)

Did you have that problem when you were shooting my Shadow Cat?
If you shoot somebody else's bow and the problem goes away it might be the grip angle on the bow, if you know someone who has a Mathews close to your draw length shoot their bow and see what happens. Do a search on tiller tuning to see how to correct this on your bow. Nice shooting with you at Mechanicsburg. Phil.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

What you have is a form of target panic. It is a mind thing that will not allow you to get in the spot. Now if you were able to set in the spot and then the harder you pull the more it pulls down on you, you have a chance to adjust your tiller to push the bow up with offset limb pressures. I don't believe that is your problem because you say it is rock solid at 6:00. The best way to fix this is by doing brain games or concentration drills. Spend about a half hour each night holding and pulling at full draw concentrating on holding on the spot. Hold and pull as a normal shot sequence for about 5-8 seconds and let down. DO NOT SHOOT ANY ARROWS DURING THESE SESSIONS. You are attempting to reprogram your brain to believe you can do it. You do not want any negative feedback from arrow placement. Just hold, aim and put down. If you have to start close or use a large spot. Then shrink you spot or move back until it is natural to hold. Remember that even the best pros can not hold perfectly still in the spot. Allow it to wander and don't try to over control it. In time it will wander less and less as you learn to relax and trust it. When you are very comfortable with this (two weeks Maybe). I know that don't sound fun, but it will pay dividends later. You can start to introduce a shot into the sequence. Introduce it on a large spot. Remember you want positive feedback. shoot only every other draw. Slowly work you way to a smaller spot father away. You will soon find that in short order, you will be holding on the spot with ease.


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## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

Good advice from Kratzz there....

I found whenever it's much easier to start from above and settle into the spot as well. Won't help the panic (maybe put it off a bit) but it can help meantime.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

that was my question...

do you raise up to the spot or drop down into it.

i watched one fella shoot and his draw was long, and he was pushing the bow with his bow hand and his bow shoulder was dropped and it looked like he struggled to lift the bow to where he wanted it.

good luck...


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## cs1973 (Apr 25, 2005)

great advice from ktrazz.i am going to try this as well. what has helped me though is blind bale shooting and concentrating on form, not the shot, during the first 20 shots of my routine. this routine allows me to 'warm up' and then move on to my regular practice session. should i 'lock low' on the target, i go back and blind bale shoot and for some reason, the target panic (low lock) seems to be gone. it has become my routine and it not only helps target panic but has significantly shrunk my groups. hope this helps.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

i had a huge problem locking low big tim pretty much straightend me out.he helped me break down my shot sequence and got me to come down on the bull instead of coming from below,it has helped me a ton.how could changing tiller possibly make you aim differant?i could see if you were aiming solid and hitting low it could help but it cant make you aim better.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

That is what my advise was meant to do. Break down the shot sequence and work on only one aspect at a time. It is much to hard to work on any one thing when trying to put it all together and shooting shots that count. Work on only one thing at a time. Once you can finally hold on the target fine, you can start shooting at a bale with no target on it. Close your eyes (stand close enough not to miss) and shoot 20 "good hard" shots. Make them as form solid as you can. This easier with your eyes closed because you can only visualize your body and not the target. Now you can concentrate on you form and follow through only. Do not have a target on the bale. Again you do not want any negative feedback. Do this for a week or so and then alternate between this lesson and the aiming lesson for a week. Do not put them together untill everything is dreadfully boring. Then you have done it long enough to make a difference. By this time it should be in your subconsious and be much easier to shoot a well executed, "relaxed" full shot sequence.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

On the subject of coming in from the top. Practice coming in from all angles so that you do condition yourself into having to do it the same each time, but when the shot really counts. Always come in from the top. Remember you are fighting gravity. If you draw on the target and start into the shot sequence, gravity will take hold and pull the sight low. This is the most common problem archers face in the shot. Now you have to introduce shoulder muscle to try and push the sight back up, and when you get there and try to stop moving gravity takes over and pulls it back down. Now you are bobbing and your brains shot sequence is turning on and off (I'm in, I'm out,now I'm back in). It won't be long before full blown target panic will set in hard. If you draw well above the target and come to full draw and anchor, let the sight settle to just above the spot. Then start your hard aiming. You will find that gravity takes over and settles you into the spot instead of past it. Now the only thing you have to do is stop the movement, not counter act it. You will be able to hold much easier becuase you are not introducing uneeded muscles. Remember, the shot is supposed to be relaxed. Adding shoulder muscles only hurts you. Just remember, once you start the shot sequence, trust it and complete it or put down. Never start and stop the sequence.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

If changing some adjustment (usually tiller is talked about) really worked to make the bow "magically" easier to aim, don't you (not really "you" but generic) think that this information would have spread like wildfire and all of us would be able to shoot perfect scores?
Now, if you really *think* that the bow is easier to aim.....then it could well be. That is still the shooter making the difference not the inanimate object in your hands.
I've shot bows with 2 different length limbs, greatly mismatched limbs, twisted limbs, bent risers, 1/2" negative tiller, and 2 different size wheels. I can't tell the difference in my scores (300X58, 550+ Field) with any bow. 
It's not about the equipment....it's about the shooter.
Yes, you have a form of target panic.


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## hayman (Sep 9, 2004)

Okay, I am taking the first step "I Have Target Panic". Last night I started the draw and hold on the dot. I was using my Solution 3 and mentally saying "CLICK" as if I were taking off the safety. It is going to take some time. When the dot finally lands on the spot I feel mentally anxious to shoot at first but after about 25 to 30 times drawing, holding then letting down I seemed to settle down. I am not going to shoot at the local shoot this weekend but instead do the brain game or concentration drill for two weeks while also incorporating some blank bale shooting.

Thanks ktrazz and everyone else for the help and advise.

My name is Bill and I have Target Panic


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I also had been having a difficult time getting on the X when coming from below the ring. Having been a hunter for an awfully long time before even thinking about shooting targets, I always came up the animal's leg and over to the kill zone. Bad thing to try and change after 20+ years of doing it "wrong".
I have overcome the problem somewhat. I still come from below but I just dropped my sight a tad and now when I'm stuck on the bottom of the X, the arrow still drills it. This is proof to me that it is a mind game. If you can trick yourself, you win!


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

hayman said:


> Okay, I am taking the first step "I Have Target Panic". Last night I started the draw and hold on the dot. I was using my Solution 3 and mentally saying "CLICK" as if I were taking off the safety. It is going to take some time. When the dot finally lands on the spot I feel mentally anxious to shoot at first but after about 25 to 30 times drawing, holding then letting down I seemed to settle down. I am not going to shoot at the local shoot this weekend but instead do the brain game or concentration drill for two weeks while also incorporating some blank bale shooting.
> 
> Thanks ktrazz and everyone else for the help and advise.
> 
> My name is Bill and I have Target Panic


Maybe not CarbonTerry  

Hayman, I had the same problem and it turned out that by adding a little to the top limb my bow was able to come up into the ring without doing anything else. Try putting 1/2-1 more turn on the top limb. Note that this will change your nocking point.

CT, while no one should claim that tiller tuning is a miracle method that makes everyone shoot perfect scores, it has spread like wildfire and is used by most archers at the top levels. It may not cure Hayman's ills but it is not voodoo either. 

Just my $.02


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Most of the top archers that I know do not bother with it.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Most top archers will be top archers even using a tree limb and a string. :wink:


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

How did they shoot great scores before T/T was proposed? Why aren't they shooting perfect scores all of the time after T/T?


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

And as I said before, "If you think it will help, it may indeed help." It's still the shooter.
So, if I put 5 turns on the top limb will I have to put weight on the bow to keep it from floating into the sky?


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

CarbonTerry said:


> And as I said before, "If you think it will help, it may indeed help." It's still the shooter.
> So, if I put 5 turns on the top limb will I have to put weight on the bow to keep it from floating into the sky?



LOL! :beer: Good one!


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

CarbonTerry said:


> How did they shoot great scores before T/T was proposed? Why aren't they shooting perfect scores all of the time after T/T?


TT has been around since take-down recurves were invented. Before that I guess they probably just whittled down the bottom limb a little bit more


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

CarbonTerry said:


> Most top archers will be top archers even using a tree limb and a string. :wink:


Totally agree with that! :thumbs_up


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## [email protected] epix. (Jun 10, 2003)

It could be any of the things listed above. Or it maybe your nock location. Say for example if your hole setup nock point and rest are a little to low it will pull the bow down because you are pulling more on the bottom half of the bow than on the top making it hard to stay in the centered in the dot. To test what I just told you just pick your bow up,and draw it with you fingers a hands width below your current nock point. You will notice by doing this that the front of the bow seems heavy because you are pulling below center,which is pulling the bottom of the bow towards you. Now do the opposite draw the bow with your fingers a hands width above your current nock point you will notice that the top half of the bow or limb wants to come towards you. This is just a test to show you that where you set your nock point affects how the bow aims. If this proves to be the case you will need to move your nock point up. All we are trying to do at this point is to get the bow to aim. So move your nock point up about an 1/8 at a time,draw the bow with a release and an arrow on it and note how the bow aims on the dot with out shooting it then let down. (Note:don't move your rest or shoot an arrow until you get the bow to hold on the dot. After this is acheved you adjust you rest until you get the proper paper tear it maybe above the rest holes but that will be alwright) If it still is low move the nock point up some more. It is posible to get the nock point to high causing the pin to sit above the dot,with you not being able to get it down also. It takes some time to try this but it works. Oh and it take muscle to come from the bottom up on a target. But it takes no muscle to come from the top down,gravity does it for you. 
Hope this Helps
Mike :wink:


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## Fish (Feb 20, 2005)

*Tiller*

The only thing that putting more turns on the bottom limp will do is make the bow jump up in a violent action after the shot nothing more really. Dont chang the tiller you r just makeing more variables and that is always a bad thing in the shooting world. Also the advice about target panic is right on, but take it as a good thing target panic shows you care alot about your score, but be carefull to have fun while shooting that is one thing every shooter should keep in mind is to just have fun.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

I couldn't agree more fish. Think back to everyone you know who has gotten or is dealing with panic. I'll bet it showed it's ugly head after they got serious and really started caring. Keep it fun and remember they call it a game. One shot at a time and each as hard as the last.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Before you begin to take the cure for TP, which is a long, laborious project, try this. Shift your weight more to your back foot. Ever hear of Occam's Razor? It is a principle that says: Always try the simplest hypothesis first.


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## Greg L DeSaye (Jan 18, 2005)

Hayman,
Please try this. I was having the same problem as you are experencing, and got some good advice from someone here on AT, and it worked like a charm for me.
First off, you DO have target panic, but alot might be how you are aiming at thew target.
When I had the problem, I would start below the bull, center my bubble, stare at my "pin", and try to lift it up to the X and settle on it while again, staring at the "pin" in my scope. Now, I still start below the bull, center my bubble (just as before, but then I take my eye off the sight pin (now a circle) and stare only at the X and at the same time I lift to the X and cover it with my pin. Sounds so crazy, but it works for me. Now that my mind's subconsious has forgotten about the pin I can stare at where I want to hit and the bow just comes up to cover the X without difficulties. It cured me of the same problem you are refering to in no time at all. Give it a try... Hope it helps.
Think about this... If you hunt deer with a scoped rifle, you dont stare at the X in the scope and then look for a spot on thew running deer do you? No, you see the deer running ande find where on the "deer" you want to hit, and then try to cover the spot with the X in the scope.
Good Luck, let me know if it helped, it have a couple friends that got rid of the problem with the same advice I just gave you.


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## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

In addition to the other suggestions, I would try using a ring instead of a pin. I found it very difficult to settle a pin or dot on the X, and was always trying to peek around it. I replaced the pin with a ring on my lens, and just look through ring at the X, and center it. For me, it works for field as well as 3D.


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## GMM (Jun 19, 2004)

Lower your target. If the problem is still there, send the bow to me, I would be happy to have it. :shade:  

Just kidding
GMM


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## hockey7 (Jan 29, 2004)

*Holding Low*

-I have the same problem, holding steady just under the "dot". I shoot left handed, when I was paper tuning my son's right handed bow, I noticed I could hold steady right on. Then I switched back to my left bow, and again, I'm holding under. All in the mind. I found when I'm at full draw, and my finger away from the trigger, I can hold steady on the dot, so I get steady on the target, then SLOWLY put my finger on the trigger, and release. It works if I really concentrate.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Hockey7: You will find that most everything new will work for a short period of time. I'll bet that in short order you will start to punch the release while flying by the target. That is what usually happens with a person with panic that tries to control the shot by staying away from the trigger. Pretty soon they will start to flinch and jerk because they are thinking of the release, then the sight, then back to the release again and so on. Get your release to go off without thinking about it and put your concentration up front on the sight and keep it there. Back tension releases are the easiest way to accomplish this.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

I agree that one should look at what you want to hit (the target) and not the sight pin. Let the pin float over the target and in front of you eye. Try not to bounce back and forthe between the pin and the target. Stay looking at the target. Don't confuse your brain and make it any harder than it already is to be consistant.
I had a majoy problem shooting a dot in my scopes for the very reason mentioned above. I just couldn't cover up that which I was trying to see and aim at. Switching to a ring took care of that problem. Just center it up with your peep and stare at the spot.

I personally don't advocate coming up on a target from below. I never want to fight gravity and introduce muscles that should be relaxed. I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't teach it. Start high and let gravity bring you in. Then you only have to stop the pin and not push it back up.


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

hayman,
Try this.
If you are shooting an up pin....drop it from the top or vice versa.
Good Luck


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Drop pins are nice but I felt I could get a better sight picture using a hooded drop pin. I always had trouble coming from the top with an up pin. The pin is so close to the bubble that I couldn't see the spot until I had passed right through it. A drop pin or hoop allows you to see the spot coming so that you can set up on it early and allow for your gravity drop.


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

Definately target panic. When your pin is stuck at 6:00 you are likely relaxed and could execute the shot perfectly but because your pin is below the X you consequently shoot low. When you put your pin on the X and covering it, this is where your brain feaks out... "oh no , where did the X go , I can't see it !!! , ah heck just drop down a bit and force the shot" This is a very difficult thing to overcome but with the practice methods detailed in previous posts , it WILL help. If not.. Well, just adjust your pin to compensate for the 6:00 hold.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

All I know is that I tried every single thing listed in this thread and they all worked for a week or two and then TP was back. Bottom line, Zenith and their "Can't Punch" video and BT release solved my problem..coupled with good advice from AT and GRIV.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

I posted on this in the ladies section of the site, and the little game I used still works. It sounds zany, but target panic has no ONE cure; just as each of us varies, so does the way we cope with stress, which is what target panic actually is. WE "stress" not so much hitting the X, it is the potential for NOT hitting the X we are afraid of, so our brain invents ways to avoid that POTENTIAL failure, such as not letting you put the dot onna spot. Aside from a cold beer before shooting, which I HIGHLY do NOT recommend, you must find a mental way to overcome your brain's programming and show it that "YES, I CAN hit that spot, nyah, nyah, so there!" A friend of mine overcame it by just actually saying out loud before each practice shot, %^[email protected]#! I can hit the ^%$#)&^^#@!^ spot! And he did. He had several sessions like that, then just mentally thought it, and eventually, he just "bulled" his way right on "through." Humor helps, too, and the comment about when archery STOPS being fun is exactly correct. Go get a cheap fiberglass recurve bow, set it up with no bells or whistles, get some el cheapo wood "arrahs," an armguard and a cant pinch tab, and shoot instinctive for a week. Rediscover the FUN you can have making sticks jump into a haybale. I did not give you a set formula, but I hope I have given you encouragment and good cheer. Either that or get one of them archer babes off the Martin Ads and let her coach you. I am partial to the one holding the recurve behind her as she looks longinly over her shoulder.......  Ha cha cha cha!!!


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

If you adjust your sight so that it shoots high and try to hold at 6:00 and let the arrow fly up into the spot will only work until your mind figures out that 6:00 is where you want to aim and then you won't be able to hold there any longe either. The brain is a funny thing. 
I've seen many archers go through the steps I described above and not get a handle on thier panic. Nothing works for everybody but what I described works for many. I find that most archers like most people in general want and need instant gratification from what they do. Going through these steps of reprograming your brain is boring and there is no gratification. You are not shooting the center out of a spot or ringing up scores that give feedback (instant gratification). You MUST continue to do these drills for periods of time. I took an entire indoor season off to devote to getting rid of my panic. Which was so bad that I couldn't even draw the bow back for fear of not being able to hold the string long enough to even get on the bale. I have had my panic under control for over 8 years now and I still go to the blank bale at least once a month to push harder to keep it there. Faith, trust and commitment to the cause are what is going to beat this animal.


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