# bow torque



## Bullseyehunter

I am interested in learning a bit more on bow torque and how it can affect archery and what is being done to help prevent torque from being inflicted on the bow. I'd like to learn as much as I can like what is being done at the design stage of the bows and risors to minimize torque as much as possible. 

I am a student at MSOE and I am doing a technical research paper on the subject, so anything you guys can give me would help.

Thanks


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## robass1

I dont think there is much that can be done regarding the torque of the bow other that practice,practice,practice , if it was that easy we would all be pro archers . Anyway thats what keeps me addicted to the sport .

Long live Archery (in any form)


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## wblackfin

This link will give you some general info on bow torque:

http://www.buckmasters.com/BM/Deskt...eid=643&articleId=385&moduleId=658&PortalID=0 

This link will take you to a product that claims to eliminate bow torque.

http://www.vanhandle.net/HOME4DEATHGRIP.html

and this

http://www.bowmanbows.com/accuriser2/index.htm


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## SonnyThomas

Torque, how it can effect the shot (not archery in general) is quite simple. Draw the bow back and flex the wrist of the bow hand. You twist the bow and the arrow goes somewhere else. Torque is hard to reproduce so accuracy is eratic.

The bow must set in the hand un-aided. Oil your bow hand or use some other slick substance. Draw the bow and let the bow find the sweet spot in your hand. Always spoken of is the lines in the palm of the hand, but the sweet spot starts to the inside of the base of thumb joint, the meaty part toward the center of the palm. Dig your off hand fingers into the meat and you will find the base joint of the thumb. Once found more understanding will come.


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## Van Handle

SonnyThomas said:


> Torque, how it can effect the shot (not archery in general) is quite simple. Draw the bow back and flex the wrist of the bow hand. You twist the bow and the arrow goes somewhere else. Torque is hard to reproduce so accuracy is eratic.
> 
> The bow must set in the hand un-aided. Oil your bow hand or use some other slick substance. Draw the bow and let the bow find the sweet spot in your hand. Always spoken of is the lines in the palm of the hand, but the sweet spot starts to the inside of the base of thumb joint, the meaty part toward the center of the palm. Dig your off hand fingers into the meat and you will find the base joint of the thumb. Once found more understanding will come.


The arrow will stay true it is the sight that will move when you torque the bow.


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## SonnyThomas

Van Handle said:


> The arrow will stay true it is the sight that will move when you torque the bow.


Perhaps you missed the point. The arrow will not be true to the power path of the bow string, sights or no sights. Also, torque (twist) the bow and the arrow rest moves. Double jeopardy, so to speak.

If one was strong enough, and some can do this, the bow could be torqued to the point one could pull the string off the top wheel or cams.

Not only the bow can be torqued. The bow string can be torqued. On a low poundage bow one can start drawing the bow with three fingers and twist the string into a loop around the fingers. This was shown in a Robert Ragsdale article - Archery magazine, I believe.


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## Bullseyehunter

The info is helping a lot keep it coming please. Are there any bow manufacturers out there that have something to offer about how bow torque affects the designs of their bows?


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## petev

The ease of which a bow can be torqued is releated to it's dynamic brace height (brace height at full draw). This is why most target archers don't shoot parallel limb bows. They prefer a traditional geometry as the cams move backward as the bow is drawn, increasing the dynamic brace height. A larger dynamic brace height also increases the moment of inertia about the riser which helps with dynamic torque (after release). A stabilizer also helps with dynamic torque. Draw yourself a picture of the force vectors involved and it will be clear.

~petev


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## Bullseyehunter

I appreciate the Help. The more I can get the better.


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## wblackfin

If you look at the promotional info for many bow manufactures, they will make claims about torque free or reduced torque grips. IMO bows with narrower grips do have less tenancy to torque.


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## dwagoner

a good proper grip is a great starting point, check this video and learn from it

http://www.bowhunting.net/bowtube/media/79/Get_A_Grip_-_Larry_Wise/


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## Bullseyehunter

Got anything else for me guys?


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## Kai

*Bow shoulder affecting torque*

I'm a newbie so I may be out of line here - only been shooting about a year now but have recently injured my bow shoulder (Left side, right handed bow) rhomboid muscles and have found that this has had a huge impact on my shooting form and particularly is causing me to torque the bow to the left after release to the extent that my arrows are grouping between 2 and 3 inches to the left of the X at 20 yards. I did some tests on the behaviour of me shoulder muscles with my physiotherapist and this is without a doubt the cause - so torque can come from further up than the bowhand....Anyway - just hit home to me how important all aspects of form are and not to get fixed onto just one aspect. Funny thing was I could not believe what was happening at first and went through the whole tuning exercise with my husbands help - eventually gave my bow to him in exasperation and when he gave it back as true as he could make it, went on to move my sight eventually ending up all the way left (100 shots later) and still shooting left! well that is when I decided to go to the physiotherapist...


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## Bullseyehunter

Interesting thoughts. I know form has a lot to do with helping limit torque but I'm looking more for actual things with the bow that can cause torque. for example, the type of grip on the bow, and the way the risor is offset.


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## BeachBow

It's all in the grip. Bend your wrist, clutch the bow grip like you're trying to strangle it, use too much palm on the grip. All of these things will cause you to twist/torque the bow when you release. IMHO no matter what you do to the grip itself. if you can't find the sweet spot in the thumb pad, you're going to torque the bow. How much depends on just how bad you execute the grip. My wife had laid off shooting for a couple of weeks. When we went out, she claimed her sights were off because she was hitting low and left. After adjusting her sights, I noticed her grip was wrong. I told her and when she adjusted to the correct position, she started hitting high and right. So another adjustment back to the original position set things right. JMHO, but this is what works for us. :darkbeer:


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## 1Maximus

The best way to control bow torque is to see it.
Try a product called a square-up.
You can locate and find more information at lightningbowstrings.com


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## sportsman

You want to see bow torque, get a laser bore sighter with a .224 cal spud and stick it in the end of an arrow shaft. Turn it on and observe how your sights line up with the string. Then draw the arrow and look where the laser is pointing on the wall in relation to your sights. Is it in vertical alignment? Then move your bow hand or fingers around and watch how easy it is to torque the bow. That should give you some insight on how to adjust your sights and grip your bow.


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## 1Maximus

Lasers work but the batteries could fail.
The square-up is a simple visual refrence that doesn't fail.
It will fit any bow and works instanly.


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## sportsman

Well, some of us know how to find a store and buy new batteries, which will last several years. The boresighter fits any bow also, and it has never failed. And the boresighter works quite well on guns too. 

And you forgot to complain about the $40 cost of the boresighter.


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## jackdog

I have shot the square up it really works. It is so simple you wonder why nobody thought of it before.


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## sportsman

Hind Sight works well too and has been out a few years.

Square up looks interesting. What do they cost?


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## 1Maximus

I personally like to keep my electronics on my boat.
The cost is very reasonable and you never have to drive to the store for batteries.
I'ts just an execellent way to see left and right hand bow torque.
I't doesen't hurt to look .


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## jackdog

I think square up is retailing about 60$. You use it with your peep site too. Nothing to change on the bow.


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## jackdog

I have a feeling this product becomes standard equipment. They have some work to do on the pin visibility.


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## sportsman

Whats up with the pin visibility?

$60???? Learning to properly grip your bow is free and will improve your archery skills and success.


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## Van Handle

We use a laser set to demonstrate bow torque at the trade and retail shows. It demonstrates torque very well. Of course all these tools and remedies are completely unnecessary if you have a Death Grip on your bow. Remember The Death Grip does not reduce torque. The Death Grip eliminates torque, as in gone, nothing what so ever, nada, not even a trace!


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## edthearcher

*torque*

I may be wroug but all compounds with a cable guard have torque when there drawen back, that is why the cable shoot through system was invented.


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## dwagoner

1Maximus said:


> The best way to control bow torque is to see it.
> Try a product called a square-up.
> You can locate and find more information at lightningbowstrings.com





jackdog said:


> I have shot the square up it really works. It is so simple you wonder why nobody thought of it before.


this is that verticle wire right? $60 LOL thats why every sight has a bubble level !! dont need a verticle wire when you already should be looking at the level. I know you guys are trying to push the new product but like ive said before its really not needed if you follow basics and use the bubble level thats on sights, its intent when setup properly (2nd and 3rd axis) keeps you from torquing the bow, if you do the level shows that.


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## jackdog

The bubble controls a different axis than the square up. Square up is a visual reference on a third axis commonly understood to be bow hand torque. If you don't understand what it does try tapeing a vertical wire to your bows riser in line with your pin stack. If you do this it will be evident to you how square up works.


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## sportsman

Jackdog and 1Maximus, you guys wouldnt just happen to be associated with this Square-up product in any way would you? 

I ask since you just joined the forums, this is the only thread you have posted in, and you seem to be heavily promoting this product.

Just curious.


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## jackdog

I just under stand how it works. I shot it and wanted to talk about it.


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## PSERepNE

*square-up*

I don't think that the guy who invented the square up even knows how to get on AT. I will say I have been using it for a few months now! I was fortunate enough to meet the guy who makes this and get to test a prototype. Let me say that this thing helps big time. I have even shown it to some of our top shooters and some very respected people in the industry and once they have spent a few minutes with it they have to agree that this thing is so simple they could kick themselves in the ***** for not thinking of it. DWagoner I know you are stuck on this whole bubble level thing, but you are missing the point. I am sure you are an awesome shot hell prob. perfect so you don't need it. But for those who have an open mind and give it a try you will be amazed and have your eyes opened at how much you may torque your bow. This item is IBO legal and I will be at World's with it. Plus I don't think it is $60 even if it is worth it. I think it may be less. I do believe one shop in my region is selling it for $50. How much is shooting better worth to you? I would recommend trying it and I don't get diddly for any sale!!!!!


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## SonnyThomas

Kai said:


> I'm a newbie so I may be out of line here - only been shooting about a year now but have recently injured my bow shoulder (Left side, right handed bow) rhomboid muscles and have found that this has had a huge impact on my shooting form and particularly is causing me to torque the bow to the left after release to the extent that my arrows are grouping between 2 and 3 inches to the left of the X at 20 yards. I did some tests on the behaviour of me shoulder muscles with my physiotherapist and this is without a doubt the cause - so torque can come from further up than the bowhand....Anyway - just hit home to me how important all aspects of form are and not to get fixed onto just one aspect. Funny thing was I could not believe what was happening at first and went through the whole tuning exercise with my husbands help - eventually gave my bow to him in exasperation and when he gave it back as true as he could make it, went on to move my sight eventually ending up all the way left (100 shots later) and still shooting left! well that is when I decided to go to the physiotherapist...


Injury and all, your torque problem is quite different and perhaps not the torque you think. I've seen busted arms that didn't mend properly and torn shoulders and rotor cuff problems and all these people shot great. Torque to the bow comes from the hand not aligning to the bow. No malfunction of the bow, constance shooting to the left (in your case) may be you leaning on the string or getting too much hand into the grip - as in using it as a crutch or possibly using too much draw weight during your recovery. In my case, hand rebuilt, I had to learn all over to hold my bow in my repaired hand - had to start with a kid's 12 pound draw bow and worked my way back up to my normal 60 and 62 pound bows. My back, x-rays showing something on the order of train wreck, gave my shooting fits. In both cases and my last, it took several months to come back to form.
One thing to try; Up close, shoot several shots without touching the string in any manner, anchor or kisser button. Probably shooting through paper around 6 ft. distance will show - shoot as normal and then as said. I've done this with several people and we found a way around the problem. 



dwagoner said:


> this is that verticle wire right? $60 LOL thats why every sight has a bubble level !! dont need a verticle wire when you already should be looking at the level. I know you guys are trying to push the new product but like ive said before its really not needed if you follow basics and use the bubble level thats on sights, its intent when setup properly (2nd and 3rd axis) keeps you from torquing the bow, if you do the level shows that.



dwagoner is pretty much on track. If one were buy every bow "fixin'" device we wouldn't have any money to buy the good stuff - bows and arrows. Personally, I'd use a big hammer on this vertical thing.


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## Unclegus

I'm no expert on torque, but I can tell you the closest thing I've ever seen to absolutely no torque on the riser is a Barnsdale with the shoot thru harness. There will never be a cable guard on my bow again.


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## Kai

Thanks for the advice - I will certainly try both turning my poundage down and lightening the release poundage - would you mind clarifying your "no touch" draw? - not sure how I would achieve the release with back tension - should I rather try it with a trigger? can PM me - not strictly a part of this thread is it...


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## boiow

i got an anchor sight for xmas. been on the bow for about 2 weeks now.
its made me more aware of torque than i ever thought possible. the slightest variations in any aspects in grip/form are magnified 6x so you can clearly see whats what.it feels like im starting all over again.


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## 1Maximus

*square-up*

maybe it's just me.
Most of my experince is in firearms.
But if you have a front sight don't you think you need a rear sight.
Basicly what the square-up does is line the front of the bow to the rear of the bow.


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## sportsman

PSERepNE said:


> I don't think that the guy who invented the square up even knows how to get on AT.


The inventor has posted several times. 

Maybe he would like to introduce himself.


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## dwagoner

jackdog said:


> The bubble controls a different axis than the square up. Square up is a visual reference on a third axis commonly understood to be bow hand torque. If you don't understand what it does try tapeing a vertical wire to your bows riser in line with your pin stack. If you do this it will be evident to you how square up works.


OK i understand your using this for riser to string torque, So whats to say you cant mount this thing incorrectly to compensate for this torque? i understand it mounts to the bow and is a visual to align with your verticle part of the pins, you STILL need to have and use a bubble level!! 



sportsman said:


> Jackdog and 1Maximus, you guys wouldnt just happen to be associated with this Square-up product in any way would you?
> 
> I ask since you just joined the forums, this is the only thread you have posted in, and you seem to be heavily promoting this product.
> 
> Just curious.


Im thinking the same as you SPORTSMAN


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## dwagoner

1Maximus said:


> maybe it's just me.
> Most of my experince is in firearms.
> But if you have a front sight don't you think you need a rear sight.
> Basicly what the square-up does is line the front of the bow to the rear of the bow.


If your trying to compare a iron sight rifle to a bow then your kinda way off track.


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## SonnyThomas

dwagoner said:


> If your trying to compare a iron sight rifle to a bow then your kinda way off track.


Ditto.

There are products out there that will show torque, such as the Peep Eliminator, the compound bow rifle sight. A bit pricey though. I have tried it and for what it is, it works and can be used with a peep. The thing is, they wouldn't let me take it for a test period. I've had enough of "Give One a Try" at my expense.


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## CherryJu1ce

*Bow Torque*

One company that has really eliminated a lot of torque for the entire shooting system in general is Martin. With the use of the 3 track cam and no cable guard, you would be amazed at how much steadier you can hold the bow without the force of the cable guard.


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## sportsman

Interesting. But I only saw two bows using that configuration and their IBO speeds are somewhat anemic. I like the concept and I hope they can carry it over into their faster bows.


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## jackdog

Yea its me. I think you guys should take a look, the darn thing works.
Mike,
Square- Up inventor


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## jackdog

I have already given a lot of these away and am running on empty but the first two guys who Im me I will give one for free. Just asking for fair chance to show the product. We were at the ATA show and I think we turned some heads. I need the dedicated bow guys like At members to take a look.


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## dwagoner

you could send me one to look at and evaluate, i would check it out and send it back to ya (yes im an honest person) and give you an honest opinion, if you think you can change my mind then who knows who else you may be able to change?? lemme know TY Dennis


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## 1Maximus

*square-up*

To any one at AT or anyone I might have offend.I apoligize but I'm so confident in this product I will send it to any dealer near you.All I ask
is take a look at it.NO cost. Tell your local dealer I'll send it out.You Judge.
It's really something worth looking at.


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## archerm3

dwagoner said:


> this is that verticle wire right? $60 LOL thats why every sight has a bubble level !! dont need a verticle wire when you already should be looking at the level. I know you guys are trying to push the new product but like ive said before its really not needed if you follow basics and use the bubble level thats on sights, its intent when setup properly (2nd and 3rd axis) keeps you from torquing the bow, if you do the level shows that.


The bubble level will never show a bow torque problem unless you are shooting up or down.


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## archerm3

dwagoner said:


> OK i understand your using this for riser to string torque, *So whats to say you cant mount this thing incorrectly to compensate for this torque?* i understand it mounts to the bow and is a visual to align with your verticle part of the pins, you STILL need to have and use a bubble level!!
> 
> 
> 
> Im thinking the same as you SPORTSMAN


The point is that unless you are using a vanhandle's product, everybody induces "some" amount of torque to the riser, the square up is used by the shooter to measure that torque and make it the same for each and every shot.

Sportman, you mention the boresighter in the arrow, yes you can do that analyze your grip without shooting, the squareup is used for each and every shot.

It's basically the same principle as to how the "Hindsite" works. Only you can use your own front sight.


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## archerm3

SonnyThomas said:


> Ditto.
> 
> There are products out there that will show torque, such as the Peep Eliminator, the compound bow rifle sight. A bit pricey though. I have tried it and for what it is, it works and can be used with a peep. The thing is, they wouldn't let me take it for a test period. I've had enough of "Give One a Try" at my expense.


his point was, is that the square up is similar to the rear sight of a rifle, and your anchor point and peep sight is equivalent to the stock weld of your cheek and the riflestock, because the string (hence, your peep, what you "think" is a rear sight) is not rigidly attached to the riser, especially at full draw.

Brilliant minds are not always the best at explaining their brilliant ideas. I saw where he was going with his analogy.


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## archerm3

One more thing for anyone reading this thread:

Bow hand torque applied on the riser is different than the torque applied to the riser due to the cable guard. 

Both have similar effects.


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## sportsman

Yeah, if you learn the proper way to shoot and sight in your bow, you wont need all these distracting analysis accessories. Practice, practice, practice, ....


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## archerm3

sportsman said:


> Yeah, if you learn the proper way to shoot and sight in your bow, you wont need all these distracting analysis accessories. Practice, practice, practice, ....


Tis true.

I think I might take off my sights tomorrow...lol j/k


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## Bullseyehunter

Well I think we got a bit off track but some of these things are rather interesting, but im still looking for more of what a manufacturer can do to their designs to help eliminate torque. As in something they could change with how they offset their risors or maybe how they set up their cams and wheels.


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## Bullseyehunter

ttt


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## pierce652

Not to keep the flames comming but I have one of the square ups and it does make a difference. I have a tendency to torque the bow no matter how loose I try and grip it. THe square up is a nice heads up refrence to make sure Im not twisting my wrist. Its ture that practice can help but the square up is a constant refrence to be sure Im correct. I bought it thinking Ive spent more than this on deer pee and unscented soap and detergent this year which showed no results (the pee) so what did I have to loose. 

Then again its one of those things you have to physically see in action to appreciate how well it works.


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## raymonmarin

*Very True*



Van Handle said:


> We use a laser set to demonstrate bow torque at the trade and retail shows. It demonstrates torque very well. Of course all these tools and remedies are completely unnecessary if you have a Death Grip on your bow. Remember The Death Grip does not reduce torque. The Death Grip eliminates torque, as in gone, nothing what so ever, nada, not even a trace!


Put on the death grip and zero Torque:darkbeer:


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## 2312

Bow Companies are dealing with the Torque Problem more than you realize. 
By making bows faster they are having to store and release more energy than ever before. To accomplish this they are moving the grip further and futher back: low brace hieght, in relation to the front of the bow. But the compromise is forgivness. the lower the brace height the less forgiving. If you want a good example of this look at Mathews Conquest Apex compared to any of the "faster bows" the riser on the apex is deflexed meaning in front of limbs. The risers on the fast bows are reflexed "behind the limbs." Forgiving bows = harder to torque. If you are holding a bow that has the riser in front of the limbs and you move the string back and forth the front of the bow hardly moves. If you are holding a fast or reflexed riser bow back, and move the string back and forth the front of the bow will move alot more. Kinda like Ying and Yang. Speed = torque , Forgiving = slow. If you can make a bow faster and more forgiving (less Torque) than anyone else you have a winner!!


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## archerm3

2312 said:


> Bow Companies are dealing with the Torque Problem more than you realize.
> By making bows faster they are having to store and release more energy than ever before. To accomplish this they are moving the grip further and futher back: low brace hieght, in relation to the front of the bow. But the compromise is forgivness. the lower the brace height the less forgiving. If you want a good example of this look at Mathews Conquest Apex compared to any of the "faster bows" the riser on the apex is deflexed meaning in front of limbs. The risers on the fast bows are reflexed "behind the limbs." Forgiving bows = harder to torque. If you are holding a bow that has the riser in front of the limbs and you move the string back and forth the front of the bow hardly moves. If you are holding a fast or reflexed riser bow back, and move the string back and forth the front of the bow will move alot more. Kinda like Ying and Yang. Speed = torque , Forgiving = slow. If you can make a bow faster and more forgiving (less Torque) than anyone else you have a winner!!


correct conclusion, incorrect demonstration/analogy. 

Your sight, nor the riser, cares how much the riser pockets move when you move the string 1" left or right while pivoting around the grip. A 3'' sight extension moves x amount for y degrees of angle turned on the riser. Brace height will determine what the y degrees of angle turned is, when the string is moved 1" back and forth, for example. The sight, the bowstring, do not care if you have 48" parallel limbs with limb pockets 42" out in front of you in a cartoon shaped reflex riser: 6 inches of brace height is 6 inches of brace height. Deflex/reflex only matters as far as weight distribution/moment of inertia, something easily corrected with properly positioned stabilizer weights.


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