# Lizard tongue target rest question



## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

I am relatively new to compound target shooting and have set up my Barnsdale Classic X with a Cartel Midas II target rest:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-midas-ii-target-rest.html

The rest comes with tongues of 3 different stiffnesses (0.2T, 0.25T and 0.3T). How much flex do I want in the tongue when an arrow is resting on it? I was trying to tune in some 2317 aluminum shafts but got crazy nock high bareshaft impact - nearly at a 45 degree angle compared to fletched at 10 yards. Even the fletched shafts fly weird with a vertical wobble. I am wondering if the arrows are too heavy and causing the tongue to actually flip the tail end of the shafts upwards as it comes off the rest. 

Thank you.


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## giltyone (Nov 9, 2009)

I would use the stiffest tongue for heavy arrows. The lighter tongues would be be lighter, thinner arrows. Comfirm this with a good paper tune. Also observe the flight... the flexed tongue may give your arrow flight some porpoising effect.




J-san said:


> I am relatively new to compound target shooting and have set up my Barnsdale Classic X with a Cartel Midas II target rest:
> 
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-midas-ii-target-rest.html
> 
> ...


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks. I'll give that a try.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Make sure you're not driving the arrow down into the tongue. Tongues break when stressed


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't think it it driving down into the tongue. I got some lighter weight carbon arrows to bareshaft tune reasonably well using the same stiffness tongue. 

I just tried the stiffest tongue and got the same really nock high bareshaft at 10 yards. I am thinking even that tongue is not stiff enough. Anyone tried gluing two tongues together to make a really stiff one?


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

what is your total arrow weight??? i know alot that use .010 even for really heavy arrows, but all depends too. im using 008 with average 2512 aluminums


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

The 2317s weigh about 590gr. and the carbon arrows weight just under 400gr. I am not familiar with the stiffness rating numbers used for the rest tongues. I have 0.2, 0.25, and 0.3 marked tongues. The 0.3 is the stiffest. This rest also incorporates a spring element that allows the tongue to rotate down towards the riser shelf. I have that set to the stiffest setting just before locking it out.


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## nitrogen (Oct 21, 2012)

Don't mean to hijack thread but on a related subject - I'm about to set up this type of rest too for the first time soon (hopefully) and am wondering on a ball park figure for the angle the rest should be set at to start off - I think 35 degrees from horizontal is what I read somewhere, does this sound OK?


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## bfelver (May 13, 2012)

for that arrow weight the blade is not stiff enough . nuts and bolts recommends 30 degrees on the angle i have had good luck with that setting


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## nitrogen (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks bfelver - if nuts & bolts says it then that's good for me


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks. Guess I'll try gluing the two weaker rests together to see if I can't make something that will work for the 2317s.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

.3mm would be equivelent to .012" which is the stiffest, if thats not working for those 590g arrows then you can try putting together. but there are alot shooting arrows that heavy and using that blade too. would play with blade angle and nock height to see how it tunes.

have you tried bare shafts to make sure theres no fletching contact issues????


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Foot spray powder does not indicate flecthing contact. Bareshafts fly horribly with severe tail kick-up. At 10 yards, the bareshaft impacts almost at a 45 degree angle with nock up relative to fletched. This is with both the 0.25 and 0.3 tongues, although it seems not quite as bad with the 0.3 tongue. Using the 0.3 tongue, I got my lighter Gold Tip carbon arrows to tune well with bareshafts impacting within the fletched group. Not changing anything and popping one of the heavy aluminum arrows on the string will result in horrible porpising. This makes me think the 0.3 tongue is just too weak and is springing back up as the arrow passes over and kicking up the tail. I'll mess around with the angle of the tongue and even try cutting out my own rigid tongue out of aluminum or carbon fiber plate. Thanks.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

That blade shouldn't be too weak. I am shooting an arrow that is a little lighter then yours...around 550 grains...and they shoot fine off of a .010 blade which is weaker then what your using. My 2512s are around the same weight as your arrows at 573 grains and they also work very well off the same blade. 

I think something else is going on with your setup. Do you have a picture of your bow you can post so we can see the blade angle and arrow angle while its on the rest? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Sure. I'll take some pics when I get home later tonite. Thanks.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

hows bow doing spec wise?? maybe something with the string/cable ????? could have some wierd nock travel too it seems like


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

dwagoner said:


> hows bow doing spec wise?? maybe something with the string/cable ????? could have some wierd nock travel too it seems like


I was kind of thinking that the timing was off on the cams....but when he said that the other arrow tuned up of I kind of thought maybe not.

If the cams are timed right.....specs shouldn't really matter unless they are WAY off. You can have a bow way out of spec by changing the strings and what not and as long as the cams are in time and everything else setup correctly you can still tune it fine.


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

I had the bow looked over by the shop techs and it is in good condition. I am not super knowledgable on compound bows, but cams are timed properly AFAIK. I took a couple photos of the bow with an arrow on the rest. The tongue is the stiffest one I have - the 0.3. 





















Compared to the carbon arrows, the aluminum ones definitely flex the tongue more. I currently have the bow tuned for the carbon arrows.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'd be tempted to say you have that launcher laid down a bit too far. as the angle gets towards horizontal the stiffness of the tongue reduces effectually and it begins to bounce instead of just giving way on the shot. the heavier the arrow, the greater the affect.


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

That makes sense. Thanks. I'll see if I can't adjust the tongue to be more upright.


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## fotal (Jul 25, 2011)

looking at the photo, assuming the base of the shelf is level, then the arrow looks nock high to start with. looks like the arrow is not square with the string but more that a normal 1/8'


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Nope, the arrow is indeed nock high due to the flex of the tongue. I had the bow tuned for lighter weight carbon arrows and those were at the proper nock point. I had just plopped on the heavy aluminum arrow for the photo. Haven't gotten around to moving the tongue to a more vertical angle yet, but I hope to give it a try tomorrow or early next week when I can head to the range.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

don't consider tongue flex with the arrow nocked at brace.
the amount of arrow hanging past the rest and the tip weight have a ton of leverage against the tongue in this condition and an arrow that looks nock high here, might end up nock low at full draw,when the leverage goes away and the tongue only has to support the tip weight and allot less shaft weight. this is a common mistake when setting up long heavily tipped spot arrows on lizard tongues.
set the rest up, then put your arrow on it at brace and gently lift the arrow's tip until the tongue straightens out. hold it there and check your nock height, that's close to the relationship to the bow your arrow will have at full draw, where it counts. you will find that you can probably use a thinner tongue.


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks, Ron. I'll give that a try.


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