# B-Stinger and recurve



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

After reading about RAs testing the B-Stinger, I thought I would educate myself. I can't find information about what they were shooting on the B-Stinger web site. 

I can't believe they were shooting a stubby stabilizer with a heavy disc. I tried one of these at our club and immediately deemed it inappropriate for FITA style recurve shooting.

Here is an excerpt from the US Archery website: "During the two trial periods at the Olympic Training Center, U.S. coaches Lee and Krueger studied the overall performance levels of the resident athletes and tracked results with the new B-Stinger and without. The results proved to be successful in helping archers perform at higher levels. Both coaches decided that there is a competitive advantage in a quality stabilizer system.

"I can see that the archers are much more stable when they use the B-Stinger Stabilizers," said Lee. "This is a biomechanical advantage for us to use."

Krueger added, "I was very skeptical at first that a stabilizer could actually make that big of a difference. After seeing the difference in our archers' stability and testing myself, I realized these aren't just stabilizers for the bow but for the archer also."

Does anyone have pictures and additional information?


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

What is the web address for this?


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## psemadman (Jul 7, 2007)

I believe they were testing the B-Stinger Premier, not the hunter stab you mentioned.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

ScarletArrows said:


> What is the web address for this?


http://stores.b-stinger.com/StoreFront.bok


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

whats the difference between the xl and xl premium except price and name?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

the xl is fatter, not as stiff, and heavier.


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

*B-Stinger*

Here is some of the RA's bows that we set-up. They all were the Premier bars and we set them up with Wind bars as well. Various lengths and weight distribution depending on the specific needs of the shooters.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

I can only imagine how well Park Sung Hyun would have shot with a b-stinger. 

The front of her stabilizer wobbles like mad after the shot and yet she still put them in there.

It's weird.

It's biomechanically disadvantageous.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Every stabilizer wobbles after shot if you can get high speed footage. Shibuya that Park SH uses is one of the stiffest stabilizers available atm.

And there are simply no valid arguments (not to mention scientifically proven) whether stiff or flexible stabilizer is better. There are just as good scores shot with stiff rods and flexible rods such as Beiter.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You know, anytime I see something hyped this much, I get suspicious. Guess it's just my nature.

Maybe they can help, but I have a hard time seeing how something like stabilization of this sort could make such a difference.

Been offered to test one but haven't seen it yet... Until then, I'm from Missouri on this one... 

John.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

The ideal is to support as much weight as you can handle as far from the bow hand as comfortable in order to counter act the fulcrum effect upon your bow hand...in turn the stiffer the rod the less wobbly it is with a lot of weight upon the end, during the aim and hopefully this would have a greater improvement upon the accuracy. The problem is that desired feel of the bow is different from archer to archer...so one super ridgid rod may not work for a guy who likes the weight distributed differently around the bow, or distributed along the rod...like the Beiter's.

All rods wiggle following release and if you pay attention to the High Speed...that wiggle parallels the arrow as it leaves the bow. As to the effect of the stabilizer upon the arrow there are more qualified individuals than I that can tell you how it changes the dynamic spine of the arrow (stiffer?), which I believe has more to do with the overall steadiness of the bow due to the addition of a stabilizer.

My overall point...Doinker, Shibuya, Win&Win...and lord knows whom else are making equally stiff rods to the B-Stinger. Don't get caught up in the hype around them because 1) they are crazy expensive...honestly the cost of the things means that the someone is making the rods for B-Stinger and that they inturn must mark them up tremendously to make a profit. 2) There are cheaper equally effect rods out there 3) Just cause it works for Brady Ellision, or Dave Cousins...doesn't mean its the best set up for YOU.--Stabilizer set up must be done on an individual basis...you have to learn how much weight you can handle...what length is comfortable...and how you want the bow to react and feel during and after the shot. To do this takes time, money, and expanded knowledge of the subject...DO NOT TRUST ONLY ONE SOURCE OF INFORMATION...people lie everyday to sell what they make.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

The viral marketing campaign I've been seeing over the past few months is what has turned me off to this product.

In BHFS I can see how the design makes sense.

In freestyle, I think there is a massive law of diminishing returns.

A year ago, on this site...everyone was buying a posten stab. Now its this thing. And because of the way some of the "brotherhood" have been invading and arguing the ABSOLUTE merits of this piece of overpriced carbon (just my opinion)...

I won't even try it.

No Green Eggs and Ham for me please.

I had a guy tell me that the b-stinger saved his shoulder from surgery. That was a FACT, he told me.

Coffee cured Sharon Stone's cancer. 

This incessant promotion is starting to get a little gross.


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## Sturdyman (Oct 30, 2009)

I purchased a Posten stab with the v-bar and side rods from a club member used. I am so new to archery that I can not offer a true evaluation of the product. I will tell you that it feels better with just the main rod.

I buy what I can afford. For the Oly set up I am putting together I will either go with the B-Stinger or Shibuya both with the v-bar, extension, and side rods. Shibuya offerres color options. 

On my budget I might get to this year's hyped product in 3 or 4 years.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I have some serious problems with this. I have a Youth Group of about 50+/- kids and coach several competitive shooters, some are even NFAA State champions and chasing National Championships.
I can tell you that ANY stabiliser "helps" It does nto need to be B-Stinger, or W&W or Shibuya or Dead Center... It can be as simple as a lenght of an old golf club shaft w/ a bolt epoxied into it. It will help.

You need to very carefully read what was actually stated.* There is some very cleaver word smithing going on here*/....

"During the two trial periods at the Olympic Training Center, U.S. coaches Lee and Krueger studied the overall performance levels of the resident athletes and _tracked results with the new B-Stinger and without_. The results proved to be successful in helping archers perform at higher levels. Both coaches decided that _there is a competitive advantage in *a* quality stabilizer system_.
(note they didn't say specifically in a B-Stinger system, but in "a" system

The "test" was : "with the new B-Stinger and without" Umm OK...
How about test the performance of the new B-Stinger against the old B-Stinger, and other stabilizer systems, such as Shibuya and W&W?
Of course adding _-A-_ stabilizer is going to make a difference, they are leading the reader to presume that the new B-Stinger is "all that".

Krueger added, "I was very skeptical at first that a stabilizer could actually make that big of a difference. After seeing the difference in our archers' stability and testing myself, I realized these aren't just stabilizers for the bow but for the archer also."

So is he implying that only the new B-stinger is of benefit or ANY stabilizer?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> The viral marketing campaign I've been seeing over the past few months is what has turned me off to this product.
> 
> In BHFS I can see how the design makes sense.
> 
> ...


Sorry but Posten was an AT fanboy thing.....you don't find people shooting Posten stuff at all.....I can count on ONE hand the # of people that I saw shooting a Posten at shoots....be it local or bigger shoots.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

I don´t think that "without" means completly without a stabilizer but rather something else then a B-Stinger.
Probably they are comparing against their current setups. Anything else would make no sense to me!

Beside of that, I belive that a verry stiff stabilizer which is able to carry more weight at its ends without flexing that much, will help you shooting more consistent. At least if you are in such a good form that you are able to benefit from this point.

I my eyes, it hasn´t necessaryly to be a B-Stinger but a stabilizer with similar characteristics.
First of all, it should be lightweigth and verry stiff. 

The price of the B-Stinger is absolutly at the top of the range, but due to the fact that I wasn´t able to get my hands on one for testing, I wouldn´t judge it for that, although there are stabilizers out there which are stiffer and lighter in weight for a little more then one-third of the price!
But maybe it´s more then only stiffness an weight??? You´ll never know until you give every product a fair chance!!!


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

we should start a B stinger loan program,( you might need a loan to buy a set) people loan them out to others give them a try with all the weight systems, you get convinced of the hype you buy your own. Pass them along to the next archer! of course we will need more then one length.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

mantra said:


> I don´t think that "without" means completly without a stabilizer but rather something else then a B-Stinger.


Are they? What was actually stated?



> Probably they are comparing against their current setups. Anything else would make no sense to me!


We don't know this, that is not what has been stated. One would presume that to be the case, but is it really? THAT is my point EXACTLY.. We don't know anything, you must presume everything. It is classic case of cleaver marketing hyperbole. Mrs.Squid is a few classes away from her MBA and has been in the media, advertising, and marketing for (20+) years, and just loves to tear apart stuff like this.That combined with being a competive Compound and Recurve archer, it took her all of 3 secnds to read it and tear it to shreds.





> You´ll never know until you give every product a fair chance!!!


If the folks at B Stinger want to send me a set-up to run through some of my competitve shooters I would be happy to give a fair and honest review of the product.
But I'm not going out and dropping my hard earned cash just because of a bunch of flashy pictures and cleaver "spin"


I'll put it head to head against these configurations:

#1
Shibuya 26" main rod w/ 3/4" Cap
Shibuya 9" side rods w/ 1/2" center cap and 3/4" end caps
Shibuya Ultima V-Bar 

#2
Win & Win 30" HMC Stabilizer


#3
CoolHand Luke QD & DeadCenter 36" stablizer.

#4
An old golf club shaft w/ a 5/16" bolt epoxied into one end and a bowjax on the other tip.


Feel free to mail it to:
Youth and Developmental Archery Program
Good Shepherd United Methodist Church
6050 Summer Ave., Memphis TN 38134


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

SandSquid said:


> I have some serious problems with this. I have a Youth Group of about 50+/- kids and coach several competitive shooters, some are even NFAA State champions and chasing National Championships.
> I can tell you that ANY stabiliser "helps" It does nto need to be B-Stinger, or W&W or Shibuya or Dead Center... It can be as simple as a lenght of an old golf club shaft w/ a bolt epoxied into it. It will help.
> 
> You need to very carefully read what was actually stated.* There is some very cleaver word smithing going on here*/....
> ...




The testing was comparative between what they HAD been shooting and the B-Stingers and it was not even close. You can pick apart the verbiage and play semantics all you like but the fact is that coach Lee and Guy noticed right away that the B-Stingers made not only the bow but the ARCHER more stable because of the way Coach Lee teaches his technique.

When making statements like some of you are it is very insulting to not only the Pro archers that have changed (without $$$ compensation) but also to coach Kisik Lee and Guy Krueger. Do you really think coach LEE is gullible or naive enough to be duped into supporting a product so fully like he has the B-Stinger? Do you think the top pro archers are just stupid enough to jeopardize the $$$$$ they shoot for to support a gimmick?

Whether you think the B-Stinger XL premier is a gimmick or just viral marketing is of NO consequence to ANYONE that knows better. The FACT is they are not a gimmick,over hyped or not worth the money. If you want a less expensive stab then go by one but you are NOT going to get a stabilizer the quality or performance of the B-Stinger for less $$$ and to even imply this is a option just shows a lack of understanding. Better material,better R&D and better construction makes ANY product cost more? show me where this principal doesn't apply?? Do you walk into a car dealer and say you want to keep up with a Lambo but only want to pay for a Hyundai? Some probably do?? LMAO :tongue:


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> Are they? What was actually stated?


Come on...do you really think they started barebow shooting over at the olympic training center?

I would say that this was only a lazy verbalization cause it´s self-evident that an olympic style archer never trains without stabilisation and that he is aware of the fact that you are able to hold steadyer with one, then without?!

Just my 2 cents, and maybe you´re right, but I don´t think so?!


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

This has a whiff of press agentry and sponsorship - though Easton (which make stabilizers, too) is an NAA sponsor and B-stringer is not - so far. 

Generally, the tone of NAA sponsor deals was that you should support company X because they help out our team - without saying that their product is best. If that's changing, let us know (and pass the salt).

Hoyt sponsors/supports the NAA, but I don't detect any pressure to use their bows. (Jenny Nichols shoots PSE, Brady and Vic shot Mathews until recently, some others use W&W, etc..., though several use Hoyt, too - Khatuna, Butch, now Brady.) 

Is this something new? "Sponsor us or our coach and we'll post a positive evaluation/ad or stage a "test day" for your product?" Did some money change hands? Are the athletes going to be pressured to use B-Stinger even if they have pre-existing arrangements with Doinker, W&W, Shibuya, Beiter, etc. or prefer another product? 

Is this really a "scientific evaluation" of this product vs. others? (Is this a test of B-stinger vs. no stabilizer or what the shooters were previously using? There's a big difference.) I've never shot their product, but color me Skeptical, which I think is a small town in Missouri, as Limbwalker suggests.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

SandSquid said:


> Are they? What was actually stated?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You changed you post before i could reply to your statement about there being stabs stiffer for less $$$ being available was MORE then incorrect.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> If you want a less expensive stab then go by one but you are NOT going to get a stabilizer the quality or performance of the B-Stinger for less $$$ and to even imply this is a option just shows a lack of understanding.


So what are the hard facts about B-Stinger´s performance? Is there more then the stiffness, the overall weight and the small od?
The weight system doesn´t count cause you can do similar things on all other stabilizers.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> You changed you post before i could reply to your statement about there being stabs stiffer for less $$$ being available was MORE then incorrect.


That statement was part of my post which he quoted. And yes...its true. In static deflection there is at least on other stabilizer I´m aware of which is stiffer then the B-Stinger (at the same length of course).
The retail-price for this one is 89€ in Germany which is about 122$ today.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

bigGP said:


> The testing was comparative between what they HAD been shooting and the B-Stingers and it was not even


Cool. Thanks for clarifying, that is what we needed to know.


Was this an objective or subjective test? 

Is there any published reports or even raw data following the Scientific Method to review?


I'm not saying the B Stingers are not "all that", but I'm not a Lemming either.
Think about how many products are out there promising better scores, what do you believe? WHO do you believe.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

archeryal said:


> This has a whiff of press agentry and sponsorship - though Easton (which make stabilizers, too) is an NAA sponsor and B-stringer is not - so far.
> 
> Generally, the tone of NAA sponsor deals was that you should support company X because they help out our team - without saying that their product is best. If that's changing, let us know (and pass the salt).
> 
> ...


Are you serious??? Did some Money change hands???? LMAO We went to the OTC to work with Brady and Jake NOT the whole team? Coach Lee saw what we where able to do and ASKED us to work with the rest of the team. I cant even believe you would think the testing was NO stabilizer VS the B-Stinger? That is by far one of the craziest things i have ever heard. It is totally voluntary and if someone is under contract with another stab company that is on them and they dont have to shoot B-Stinger. The press release was written months ago and had to be approved by USA Archery. For those with a MBA in marketing or whatever it may be that are 'Ripping" it apart.............LMAO great job keep it up you are doing a fantastic job !!! conspiracy theories aside people those people that actually KNOW whats happening are laughing right now and the rest that have no real clue but get to rip apart a simple press release will get the picture with the NEXT press release comes. I know i know i am a jerk and you are not going to try a B-Stinger because i said what i did but to be honest when you pick A single letter out of A press releAse And insult the product And by AssociAtion those thAt shoot it whAt do you expect? B-Stinger is about making a better stab and helping archers shoot as good as possible and threads like this serve NOBODY except the fantasies of those that feed of it.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

SandSquid said:


> Cool. Thanks for clarifying, that is what we needed to know.
> 
> 
> Was this an objective or subjective test?
> ...


We took each archer and they shoot what they had.............we talked to each archer for a bout 30 minutes then we switched them over to B-Stingers and worked with each again for another 30 Minutes. We could see the bow holding way better but it wasn't until coach Lee started talking about the archers back,feet,shoulders etc ( to be honest stuff WAY over our heads in the recurve world) did it become clear he was looking for other things in addition to what we look at. It took 3 visits with brady,jake and kristin before he asked to meet with us.

Jake Kaminski (directly from him of course)has started shooting 300 vegas rounds and his scores have risen since changing.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

mantra said:


> That statement was part of my post which he quoted. And yes...its true. In static deflection there is at least on other stabilizer I´m aware of which is stiffer then the B-Stinger (at the same length of course).
> The retail-price for this one is 89€ in Germany which is about 122$ today.




And which product would this be??? i am not saying its not possible but the cost f materials would indicate something different?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

bigGP said:


> Are you serious??? Did some Money change hands???? LMAO We went to the OTC to work with Brady and Jake NOT the whole team? Coach Lee saw what we where able to do and ASKED us to work with the rest of the team. I cant even believe you would think the testing was NO stabilizer VS the B-Stinger? That is by far one of the craziest things i have ever heard. It is totally voluntary and if someone is under contract with another stab company that is on them and they dont have to shoot B-Stinger. The press release was written months ago and had to be approved by USA Archery. For those with a MBA in marketing or whatever it may be that are 'Ripping" it apart.............LMAO great job keep it up you are doing a fantastic job !!! conspiracy theories aside people those people that actually KNOW whats happening are laughing right now and the rest that have no real clue but get to rip apart a simple press release will get the picture with the NEXT press release comes. I know i know i am a jerk and you are not going to try a B-Stinger because i said what i did but to be honest when you pick A single letter out of A press releAse And insult the product And by AssociAtion those thAt shoot it whAt do you expect? B-Stinger is about making a better stab and helping archers shoot as good as possible and threads like this serve NOBODY except the fantasies of those that feed of it.


Um, the thread was started to get more information about the B-Stinger. It was entirely appropriate. Threads morph, and this one has. I'd still like to know more about why this stab is better, or different. I want to educate myself. That's it.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Please put a b-stinger in Park Sung Hyun's hands.

I've never seen an archer hold steadier than her.

Smooth as silk.

Like SandSquid and his spouse, I noticed the guarded wording that each coach used.

The b-stinger is like a cult...one that I won't join BECAUSE of the actions of some of its strongest proponents make our sport look petty.

Is this really what Blair wants his converts to preach, and how? 

Sad and kinda scary.


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

bigGP said:


> We took each archer and they shoot what they had.............we talked to each archer for a bout 30 minutes then we switched them over to B-Stingers and worked with each again for another 30 Minutes. We could see the bow holding way better but it wasn't until coach Lee started talking about the archers back,feet,shoulders etc ( to be honest stuff WAY over our heads in the recurve world) did it become clear he was looking for other things in addition to what we look at. It took 3 visits with brady,jake and kristin before he asked to meet with us.
> 
> Jake Kaminski (directly from him of course)has started shooting 300 vegas rounds and his scores have risen since changing.


??????????......Is this an insinuation that the b-stinger corrects your form???????
LAB!!!!!


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> Please put a b-stinger in Park Sung Hyun's hands.
> 
> I've never seen an archer hold steadier than her.
> 
> ...



We would be more then happy to hook up with and work with her. My issue is that USA archery approves the press releases (This press release was only a warm up for the REAL PR coming soon)and those involved at the OTC know how exited coach Lee and Guy are. i would welcome anyone to contact coach Lee and ask him in his own words what he thinks.
As to the cult statement, It becomes very damaging when a small % of people take a authorized USA Archery PR and speculate as to its true intend and validity. To imply that USA Archery,Coach Lee and Guy would be taken by a Gimmick or fancy talk and run with it on the level they have must be addressed or the reputation of not only the program but coach Lee and B-Stinger could be tarnished without cause.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

monty53 said:


> ??????????......Is this an insinuation that the b-stinger corrects your form???????
> LAB!!!!!


Corrects??? NO IDEA? but Coach Lee was looking for things involving more Bio-mechanics and other form stability issues then i ever have?? I shoot as a pro in compound not recurve so i didnt even know what he was talking about until he described it? Call him and ask i am sure he will describe it WAY better then i can.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

OMG monty! HAHAHAHAHA!

Someone has to save this thread before it gets pulled.

I believe that was an....insinuation.

Yes. Yes, it was.

*smells coffee*


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> And which product would this be??? i am not saying its not possible but the cost f materials would indicate something different?


That would be the "Arctec Pro XC". 

Static deflection was measured on a 33" Arctec Pro XC against a 33" B-Stinger Premier XL.
Both were clamped on one side and loaded with 1kg (2.2lbs) on the other end. The deflection of the B-Stinger was about 3,6cm (1.42") and the deflection on the Arctec was 2,8cm (1.1").
The weight of the 33" Arctec (without additional weights or dampers) is 133g (0.29lbs) which is a hair lighter then the 33" B-Stinger Premier XL (140g/0.31lbs).

Btw. a Doinker Carbon Elite with about the same length had 4,9cm (1,93") deflection.

These are results of a none professional testing session, and they say next to nothing about how the different products will perform under real shooting conditions. As I stated before...I never had the chance to shoot a B-Stinger and due to this I can´t make any statements about their performance.
The guy who has done these test is still shooting the Premier cause he thinks that it performs better than the Arctec. 
So maybe, it isn´t only about "who has the stiffest"?!


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

mantra said:


> That would be the "Arctec Pro XC".
> 
> Static deflection was measured on a 33" Arctec Pro XC against a 33" B-Stinger Premier XL.
> Both were clamped on one side and loaded with 1kg (2.2lbs) on the other end. The deflection of the B-Stinger was about 3,6cm (1.42") and the deflection on the Arctec was 2,8cm (1.1").
> ...




Ahh gotcha. that is right on point with stiffness only being one factor. I would be curious to see one of those bars and put it in our deflection device as well?


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> Ahh gotcha. that is right on point with stiffness only being one factor.


Maybe?! I must honestly say...I have no glue about that! But I hope so! If it came down only to stiffness in the end, the price of the B-Stinger would be hard to justify compared to a product like the Arctec.
Her in Germany a Premier cost about 240€ (if you can get one at all) and thats a whole lot of money!



bigGP said:


> I would be curious to see one of those bars and put it in our deflection device as well?


Make me good deal about a Premier a I send you one in the length you need


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

mantra said:


> Maybe?! I must honestly say...I have no glue about that! But I hope so! If it came down only to stiffness in the end, the price of the B-Stinger would be hard to justify compared to a product like the Arctec.
> Her in Germany a Premier cost about 240€ (if you can get one at all) and thats a whole lot of money!
> 
> 
> ...




LOL will you be in vegas???


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

bigGP said:


> We would be more then happy to hook up with and work with her. My issue is that USA archery approves the press releases (This press release was only a warm up for the REAL PR coming soon)and those involved at the OTC know how exited coach Lee and Guy are. i would welcome anyone to contact coach Lee and ask him in his own words what he thinks.
> As to the cult statement, It becomes very damaging when a small % of people take a authorized USA Archery PR and speculate as to its true intend and validity. To imply that USA Archery,Coach Lee and Guy would be taken by a Gimmick or fancy talk and run with it on the level they have must be addressed or the reputation of not only the program but coach Lee and B-Stinger could be tarnished without cause.



That looks like a threat BigGuy. I hope that I read that wrong.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I'll be in Vegas and I'm up for learning about why your product is better than the rest. Heck, if you convince me, I'll buy one. Have you got a WAF price?


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> LOL will you be in vegas???


Unfortunately...Nope! 

And that there is no misunderstanding...I´ve nothing to do with Arctec. I´m only a archer which is willing to give a fair test various products no matter if they are "en vogue" at the moment or a underdog.

But...I mean it...if you want to test one of this stabilizers, I would get one for you in the right length and send it over to USA.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

SandSquid said:


> I'm not saying the B Stingers are not "all that", but I'm not a Lemming either.
> Think about how many products are out there promising better scores, what do you believe? WHO do you believe.


If you were a Lemming then you would have had one LONG ago :wink: I dropped the bomb on the old rods last Jan.....


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> That looks like a threat BigGuy. I hope that I read that wrong.


how in the heck do you read that as a threat? :noidea:


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

bigGP said:


> We would be more then happy to hook up with and work with her. My issue is that USA archery approves the press releases (This press release was only a warm up for the REAL PR coming soon)and those involved at the OTC know how exited coach Lee and Guy are. i would welcome anyone to contact coach Lee and ask him in his own words what he thinks.
> As to the cult statement, It becomes very damaging when a small % of people take a authorized USA Archery PR and speculate as to its true intend and validity. To imply that USA Archery,Coach Lee and Guy would be taken by a Gimmick or fancy talk and run with it on the level they have must be addressed or the reputation of not only the program but coach Lee and B-Stinger could be tarnished without cause.


I'll help you out because you asked.

The last sentence.

HOW is it to be addressed?

HOW can the reputation of USA Archery be in any jeopardy by questioning the logic behind such statements such as "biomechanically advantageous" in using the b-stinger product?

You guys don't handle questions very well. 

But ya sure do promote pretty darn good.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

bigGP said:


> My issue is that USA archery approves the press releases


That, would explain why the press release was devoid of any real content or substance.

:tongue:


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

OMG this is getting old!!!!! I believe the b stinger XL priemer is a great rod, I believe that everyone who cares this much or has this much passion about the sport of archery must put alot of time into it and there product! Its not about who is right or wrong its about being aware of differences in products that may or may not help you to achieve your desired results ( to become a better archer). There are alot of choices in equipment out there! choose the ones that best suits your needs and budget! whatever makes you feel more confident will work the best for you!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Ok, out of all the back and forth, I've gotten 2 bits of information. 

From B-Stinger = It's product will stabilize the sight picture better. How this gets done, I'm not sure. 

From Mantra = The stab is stiff, but not as stiff as some other products out there.

Is that about right?


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## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Look how far we've come along....

Honestly, why are we sitting here and debating the merit of a companies claim to fame? Lately it was Hoyt, now its B-Stinger's turn? If anyone's purchase decision is bases on hype or advertising, then they get what they deserve. How does it serve us well to bash some ones claim that this product does or does not perform as advertised?
Go purchase a Hoyt or B-Stinger, put it through its paces then come back and tell us how you really feel. If it does not measure up to your expectations then I’m sure there is a market for you to sell it close to what was paid. Equipment is an individual preference, what works for me will not work for you or the general public. Obviously B-Stinger has a following in the compound arena and it looks like they are trying to get a hold in the recurve market. Sniping at B-Stinger, Hoyt or whatever comes out next month does not bode well for this forum. I wonder what folks in the other forums thinks of us now?


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

VintageGold said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Look how far we've come along....
> 
> ...


Why do you feel this way???
This is a forum, open for discussions. If every one agreed, there'll be no need for communication. 

A manufacturer is making claims about his product being "the best there is" and people are questioning those claims!
What's wrong with that? 

It would be an expensive disappointment if purchased and it did not live up to it's claims!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

monty53 said:


> It would be an expensive disappointment if purchased and it did not live up to it's claims!



I have a room full of various objects of buyers remorse.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Go purchase a Hoyt or B-Stinger, put it through its paces then come back and tell us how you really feel.


Uhm, I'm pretty sure that is the point behind every agressive marketing campaign...

Which is why you see so many infomercials by Ron Popiel, and so many of his products at garage sales... 

At this point in the discussion, I'd bet the B-Stinger folks are hoping this thread gets pulled. I know I would be.

John.


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## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

monty53 said:


> Why do you feel this way???
> This is a forum, open for discussions. If every one agreed, there'll be no need for communication.
> 
> I agree, but let’s focus the discussion around practical experience.
> ...


True, too bad we don’t have a consumer guide to review archery equipment.

Maybe one of the RAs will chime in on their experience with the product. If you don’t like the claims being thrown around then just ignore it and move on. If anyone has tried the stabilizer system on a recurve, I’d like to know how what their impressions are.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Ok, out of all the back and forth, I've gotten 2 bits of information.
> 
> From B-Stinger = It's product will stabilize the sight picture better. How this gets done, I'm not sure.
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell, there is only one stabilizer out there from which I know that it ist stiffer then the B-Stinger.
The ones from Soma are also close...but only close.

But as I mentiond before...I think you can´t brake it all down to stiffness, espescially on recurves where you have to handle more vibrations (in lower frequency) then one the most commen compounds.
Propabls there will be a point in stiffness where it starts to feel uncomfortable, especially with little weight on the end of the rod?!

So if you build something verry lightweight and super stiff you have to finde other ways to absorb vibration.
A-Bombs or rubber dampers like that aren´t the trend anymore cause they decouple the weights from the stabilizer itself which causes a delay in overal system movement during the aiming and interfere with a steady sight picture.
As I got it right....B-Stinger did some R&D with SIMS to find a solution for this?!
Maybe bigGP can give you a feedback to that?!

The next thing are the endweights. As you can see on nearly all the pictures of B-Stinger stabs, they are using more endweights as it was common before.
In my imagination this has two main reasons and various side-effects.
First reason: They are doing it, because you can! On such a stiff stabilizer you are able to attach tons of weights at the end before it bents.
Second reason: Lot of weights are helping to absorb vibrations cause of the mass inertia.

The main side-effect of a this, is that your sight picture will settle down faster and hold steadyer cause there is no wobbling in the stabilizer or in any damper that can lead to oscillation interference during your draw and aiming process.

Thanks to the circumstance that these stabilizers are verry lightweight itself, the overall weight should not raise that much although the amount of endweights is higher then common till now.

From my understanding, B-Stinger is also working with longer siderods then usually commen and much more weight on it.
They seem to believe in a more neutral front-/back balance?! bigGP...can you jump in on this???


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## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Uhm, I'm pretty sure that is the point behind every agressive marketing campaign...
> 
> Which is why you see so many infomercials by Ron Popiel, and so many of his products at garage sales...
> 
> ...



And it seems to be working, we are talking about it. I’m sure B-Stinger and the Pros and Joes shooting them think they are great. A lot of people on this forum rely on constructive reviews from its members when it comes to equipment. I just think the speculations expressed lately are unwarranted.


Maybe I’m reading too much into these posts?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*Patent?*

No reflection on the product, but this surprises me:

"So the B-Stinger works because *the weight is concentrated at the end and the connecting rod is light and rigid*. Those are the qualities you want in a stabilizer and since they're *patented*, they exist only in the B-Stinger. " (http://stores.b-stinger.com/Page.bok?template=WhyItWorks)

I thought most stabilizers are relatively light and rigid with the weight concentrated at the end. Did no one think to patent that before now?


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> That looks like a threat BigGuy. I hope that I read that wrong.


ummmmmmmm? threat about what???? now i am lost??


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

mantra said:


> As far as I can tell, there is only one stabilizer out there from which I know that it ist stiffer then the B-Stinger.
> The ones from Soma are also close...but only close.
> 
> But as I mentiond before...I think you can´t brake it all down to stiffness, espescially on recurves where you have to handle more vibrations (in lower frequency) then one the most commen compounds.
> ...


You are ahead of the curve in regards to your understanding of alot of the things happening with stabilization. CONGRATS!

We can work with an archer and weight their rig BEFORE we start and due to the stiffness/weight ration we can make a set up LOOK way heavier then before but actually weight the same. 

As to the neutral balance that is not what we are looking for as there are so many different factors involved with setting up individual archers. how the bow balances at brace is irrelevant as most of us shoot the bow at full draw?:teeth: JK. On recurve rigs we take every bit of weight OFF the riser and are able to accomplish the same follow thru as before with proper balance and more weight in the right ares. From setting up so many i can take a bow at brace and hold it and see how it balances and come close to what will work but a static balance at brace isn't it. we are able to use leverage AND weights to accomplish what we need to do and this results in the longer Vbars and as a result other archers and companies copying this method when before it was simply taboo.LOL 

Blair woks very closely with Sims and yes there are some for a lack of a better word "Plugs" inside the bars that help with the frequency issues.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

VintageGold said:


> Maybe I’m reading too much into these posts?


Maybe you do? One thing is for sure...no product will turn a nobody into a x-killer just by using it!
But I belive (and the physiks behind that thoughts make sense to me) that ap product like the B-Stinger and similar stabilizers can give you a more consistant shooting and maybe a few rings more if you are on the top of your game.
They won´t turn an average shooter into a Reo or a Brady but maybe they can help you on your way?!

After reading other B-Stinger threads, another interesting thing came to my mind. This company seems to support their customers with alot of hints and information how to choose and setup a stabilizer system correctly for their individual needs.
Maybe these people report about better scores because they are using a propper set-up stabilizer system for the first time?!

Btw. a fair bit of hype will probably comes along with all products that show up and get World Champion the next day. This is just how humans work  
And if the company itself gets involved...why not...a company is not a charity organisation! They do their business for a living and have to make profit to survive! But this, by no means at all, tells you nothing about the quality of their product!!! This is just business! Times where things are selling itself because they are the best, are over!
Today you will loose as the best product on the market with bad marketing against a poor product with a verry clever marketing!
You have to read between the lines and stay critical against anything what sounds to good to be true, but at the end of the day you can only judge if you have tryed it yourself.
In case of the B-Stingers...when you look at the results they have done...atleast you can be sure that these things won´t make you shoot worse


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Brady's mother was quite clear in her post on this very subject (in the general forums) that her son still shoots for Doinker.

So we still have one renegade archer.

Amen to you, Brady. Hope it lasts.

See, I think it's strange that a company would claim it is the best as FACT and not put the specs for their product up on their own website...like weight and deflection.

You'd think they would invite world-wise archers to question their methods and then win them over with things other than "feel."

Being the best means you can compare yourself in a qualifiable way with everyone else.

Not simply because your hardline is "We're the best."

So...what are the weights of all your premier XL stabs. I'd like to compare them to the "lesser" stabs. I'd like some real numbers and not just a list of the guys who decided to try a new toy this year.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP: With "more neutral" I ment "less head heavy" and not 100% percent neutral. Sorry for that, but sometimes I´ve a few issues to express myself in English clearly!

What you say about taking away as much weight as possible from the riser an move it to areas where it makes sense is someting I try to tell every archer I talk to but most of them aren´t getting it and stay with their 5oz backweight and toprods but then with 1oz on the end of the stabs! Just amazing 

As I said...I´ve never shot a single of your products an so I can´t tell nothing about their quality and performance but I´ve to say that I think (as far as I can tell from reading and talking from your customers) you are doing a hell of a job regarding to customer support! And by that I mean pre-AND post(what is worth alot more in my eyes) sales!
I wish we had more archery-related companys over here!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> At this point in the discussion, I'd bet the B-Stinger folks are hoping this thread gets pulled. I know I would be.
> 
> John.


actually I would put a ton of money on it that they aren't.......

and if they did want it pulled it would have been by now....

Pretty sure Carbon Express didn't ask for the threads to be pulled when X10 fans were beating you to death over Nanos :wink:


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Have to give to the B-Stangers when it comes to product defense and promotion. You all are like water on concrete, you find every crack and crevice to saturate the discussions. :becky:

Resistance is futile, just succumb and B-Stung.  :whoo:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Pretty sure Carbon Express didn't ask for the threads to be pulled when X10 fans were beating you to death over Nanos


And here B.H., I had forgotten all about that already... LOL! :darkbeer:

I did notice that Easton quickly created an arrow with the name "nano" to confuse the whole matter. Man, they are good... 

CX Nano's Rock Baby, Yea! 

Ha, ha.

John.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

It's mighty kind of you to want to bring light to our archery darkness, even if we may be competitors on the line.

Now that I see that there is a "biomechanical advantage" link between the BEST system and B-Stinger stabilizers I will follow both fads closely. Because, obviously, they are both the best.

They don't have to prove it.

Once, long time ago, stabilization was a personal thing.

They got this thing down to a science, baby.

...and don't ask questions. We don't need no stinkin' questions!!!!!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JawsDad said:


> Have to give to the B-Stangers when it comes to product defense and promotion. You all are like water on concrete, you find every crack and crevice to saturate the discussions. :becky:
> 
> Resistance is futile, just succumb and B-Stung.  :whoo:


:chortle: not all of us....but a few do :wink: If you don't like something great.....there is nothing out there for everyone.....but don't sling mud for no reason when you haven't even tested the stuff :wink:




limbwalker said:


> And here B.H., I had forgotten all about that already... LOL! :darkbeer:
> 
> I did notice that Easton quickly created an arrow with the name "nano" to confuse the whole matter. Man, they are good...
> 
> ...


I hear ya John....and I love my XRs also....and have from the first time I shot ONE through my bow. 

Those of us that are in love with our Premier bars feel the same way as you and I do about our Nano's........and the heat or disbelief is there for the same reason that it was there with Nano's.....they aren't made by Easton....

but in this case it isn't made by Doinker or one of the other companies that has been around the block. 

There is no doubt in anyones mind that you can shoot great scores with other bars......but what is a few points worth to you? I know what it's worth to me....and my avg on a field course JUMPED big time this year.....even with the usual brain fart and oppssss I still ended the year with an avg about 10 points higher then last year


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

BH,

I'll make ya a deal:

I won't sling mud at what I haven't tested.

You won't say your product is THE best when you haven't tried everything.

Does that make sense to you?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

B.H.,

Remember, I never said they weren't "all that." Just said I was from Missouri on this one (like most things...) 

In other words, "Show me" 

I felt the same about the new Hoyt recurve, and it appears as though it may in fact be a better mousetrap. That would be great. I'm all for progress...

But I'm also turned off by over-agressive marketing, especially when it's wordsmithed. If the products really are that good, the modern "information age" will do the rest...

John.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> :chortle: not all of us....but a few do :wink: If you don't like something great.....there is nothing out there for everyone.....but don't sling mud for no reason when you haven't even tested the stuff :wink:


:chortle: down there hornet, has the snow made you cranky? :noidea:


Have you tried every product for which you offered an opinion or insight? Believe it or not, i've actually had a live, hands on, look at these bars now. It was probably similar to what you've had with a cartain fatty bar. :becky: 

Relax man, all that snow will be gone by June....... Maybe July.


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## DLJ (Feb 5, 2008)

mantra said:


> After reading other B-Stinger threads, another interesting thing came to my mind. This company seems to support their customers with alot of hints and information how to choose and setup a stabilizer system correctly for their individual needs.
> Maybe these people report about better scores because they are using a propper set-up stabilizer system for the first time?!


IMHO this is the best thing to come out of B-Stinger (nicely made product too tho! :wink: ). Yep I use the bars, Pro Series (finger shootin) as well as the premiers but that is the irrelevant.

The arrival and 'hype' about B-stingers has made a lot of folks question their stabiliser setup. It's not just a matter of sticking a long rod on the front of the bow with 2 weights an A-Bomb and another weight and then adding back bars so the bow balances. It's now about understanding what the stabilisers are trying to achieve.

I know not everyone just threw their rods on the bow and hoped for the best but I know a ton of folks that have.

The B-Stinger system is very tunable but so it seems is Doinker, Easton X10 and other systems out there. However the B-Stinger has the ability to really fine tune because of small 1oz weights. Now only having used B-Stinger freestyle bars this last comment is purely based on my personal experience, having never used Doinkers, X10s, Beiters etc I can't say how they compare.

The Doinkers, Eastons, Cartels, Carbofasts etc are all good product and to one degree or another tunable but from my ('freestyle novice') standpoint the Premiers look the most tunable which for me means the ability to find the best setup for me. That's why I went B-Stinger (yep I bought all my kit at full price)

Anyway, back my original point, we as archers are questioning stabiliser setups, there are crys for proof and data that B-Stingers work, that's a good thing. Lets also shout and cry out for data and proof about other stabiliser systems, I've not seen anything to convince me that Doinkers or Easton X10s or any other stab system out there are any good at stabilising or any better or worse than B-Stingers

education = knowledge = empowerment

just my $0.02

Dean


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

I for one would like to see a bit more information provided on B-Stings webpage! I would like to know if they are working with Sims and puting dampning inside the rod I would like a bit more information on that subject. I would like to see more on total weights and deflection as well. I would like to see them put there new mounts on the webpage as well.


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

viperarcher said:


> I for one would like to see a bit more information provided on B-Stings webpage! I would like to know if they are working with Sims and puting dampning inside the rod I would like a bit more information on that subject. I would like to see more on total weights and deflection as well. I would like to see them put there new mounts on the webpage as well.


I would like to see ALOT of things on the web site but as everyone can tell the website is NOT updated in virtually every regard. B-Stinger is so busy trying to keep up with orders its just down the list a bit but it is on the list at least. Not that the website isnt important but what good does it do when you get info but cant get product? 




HERE YOU GO EVERYONE!

1- a 48 inch piece of the B-Stinger premier bar weights 4.4 oz. A ready to go 30 inch premier weights about 4.7 oz.

2- what other company out there gives the deflection of their bars?????? any company that the majority of us would know about that is??

3- We have a deflection machine that will be in VEGAS at the booth. This rig has a 30 inch spread and pulls the bar down in the middle at 75 pounds. We are making a You tube video and will also be creating a "Rating" for stabs on 3 or 4 of the most important factors. I certainly hope that just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't coming and by NO MEANS would it ever be done in the timeline that anyone on a public forum would be happy with? LMAO I have personally tested numerous new copy cat bars.............. bring your bar by the booth in vegas and we will check it our for you. Just remember its NOT all about just stiffness.


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## ocn (Sep 17, 2006)

*Thanks for your post Dean*

Aside from the mud and snow slinging that's going on (which is just as injoyable) I also have enjoyed the info that has been coming from this post. In regards to the quote by Mantra "This company seems to support their customers with alot of hints and information how to choose and setup a stabilizer system correctly for their individual needs." That's awesome! Now I can't say anything in regard to b-stinger yet because I have not tried them, but I have used several other stabilizers including Doinker, Vibracheck, and Easton. I would like to try the B-stingers out and I would also like to try the new Doinkers too. Unfortunately I can't afford to but, I know some guys that have, they own a pro shop and I talk with them frequently. They have tested the new stabs side by side and have opted for the latter. Until I can do a test like that I can't really say anything about this or that. I have tested the stabs that I mentioned above and you can see in my signature which one I have chosen. As for what b-stinger claims to do for the archer at full draw, I would love that and I would definitely benefit from a steadier sight picture at full draw. What I have gathered from the thread so far is just pointing towards new technology that helps the archer. We can't be angry about that.

There's my $0.02


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

Why have a deflection machine that puts the load in the middle of the bar? When I use it I want to put the load at the end of the bar. How will you test rods with varying wall thickness which are stronger at one side?


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

straat said:


> Why have a deflection machine that puts the load in the middle of the bar? When I use it I want to put the load at the end of the bar. How will you test rods with varying wall thickness which are stronger at one side?


Verry good question? Putting the load in the middle makes also no sense to me!


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## Brock Samson (Jul 13, 2009)

mantra said:


> Verry good question? Putting the load in the middle makes also no sense to me!


This is just a guess, but maybe because that's where the rod will have the most potential to flex? I don't know jack about deflection or the engineering behind stabilizers though, so it really is just a guess.

I actually just got my first stabilizer, a 32" Easton X10, to go along with my first bow, which will arrive Monday. I got that one mostly because it's what my pro shop had in the 30"+ range. I wanted to check out the B-Stinger, as I've had some email exchanges with the company, and they were always very courteous and helpful. Unfortunately for me, after spending the money on the bow, I didn't have enough left for the B-Stinger!  Maybe next time....

Joe


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

straat said:


> Why have a deflection machine that puts the load in the middle of the bar? When I use it I want to put the load at the end of the bar. How will you test rods with varying wall thickness which are stronger at one side?


 
The method you are referring to is standard in the carbon tube industry for bars. HOWEVER.... thats NOT how the stabilizer performs under real world archery applications due to the nodes of the bar as attached to the riser and the MOI at the opposite ends trying to resist the stresses being applied. why would you want a stab to be stronger on one side?? LOL quality of construction and material is critical to achieve consistency.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> BH,
> 
> I'll make ya a deal:
> 
> ...


it does make sense....but sorry Sugar Bear.....no deal.

Because to ME.....the Premier bar is THE BEST. If it wasn't guess what.... I wouldn't be shooting it. :doh:

You have no clue who I am or what I have shot......and your statement that I haven't tried everything is correct....but I can count on about 3 fingers the # of stabs made since 1998 that I haven't shot....or tried. 

So continue on with your doubt if you want.....sorry to disappoint but everyone else..... just like you..... is allowed to voice their opinion.....some of us have at least shot what is out there to at least give an honest opinion. 

If you don't believe me go back and fine the thread I posted last Jan....then call Blair and ask him if he knew me at that time....actually I am not even sure if he knew I had a rod......just like he didn't when Reo showed up at Nats this past summer.

why are you so afraid that B-Stinger has come up with the best rod on the market? Do you have stock in Doinker or something?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> B.H.,
> 
> Remember, I never said they weren't "all that." Just said I was from Missouri on this one (like most things...)
> 
> ...


John if I had extra rods for ya....I would have one at your doorstep in a few days.....

but right now all I have laying around is ONE 10" side rod and one extra weight :doh: I don't think that will help ya :chortle:

GP can help ya out though maybe :wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JawsDad said:


> :chortle: down there hornet, has the snow made you cranky? :noidea:
> 
> 
> Have you tried every product for which you offered an opinion or insight? Believe it or not, i've actually had a live, hands on, look at these bars now. It was probably similar to what you've had with a cartain fatty bar. :becky:
> ...


heck buddy I am fine....just hate when people run their mouths and haven't actually touched the products......

and you know me better then that.....yes I have owned or at least borrowed and or tested EVERY item I have ever commented on.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

B.H., no sweat man. I'm sure I'll learn more about them in time. I have always been quite happy with my Doinker products. But a man needs to keep learning to keep up... If this technology is in fact better (as it sounds the new recurve Hoyt came up with may be), then I'm sure the folks at Doinker will counter with something as good or better. I have a lot of confidence in those guys, and I like their attitudes and their approach. 

Anyone who knows me knows that I don't care for heavy marketing and outrageous claims that can't really be tested. Too much of a science background and independant spirit in me I guess. I don't like to be told what I should like without any proof... And statements like "It's better - take our word for it" are red flags to me. If a product really is better, it will stand on it's own feet and soon enough everyone will know about it.

Marketing in sports is a tricky one. Maybe not any more tricky than any other market, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in sports most of the time. The best shooters want the best products, but then, they are already the best shooters so they are going to be successful with just about anything they use anyway. So until the average shooter sees the best shooters using something, it's suspect. But then, the best shooters are provided free product or actually paid to use the products, so that's suspect too...

And so it goes... Hard to sort it all out most days.

John.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

bigGP,

Thank you for the weight of the 30" bar. That's the first concrete evidence I've read from someone working for the company. Thank you.

BH,

Respectfully, there is little to differentiate you from the Posten fanboys and all the other fanboys of other products. If your postcount matches your practice regime then I'll certainly know who you are.

I'm certain that the B-Stinger is a good stabilizer, perhaps one of the best on the market at present. Because of B-Stinger's marketing tactics and their supporter's holier-than-thou attitude, I will wait for the next big thing. I'll just work on form or something else in the meantime. 

There are so many good products out there. What you guys are failing to see is that the way your supporters have behaved on these forums will hurt your company in the long run. 

I went from being interested in your product to where I am now because of how your supporters acted on these forums and others. 

I've also outshot a few archers using your products, so maybe it ain't just about the aiming ability of B-Stinger. Dunno. Only time will tell.


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## mantra (Feb 7, 2007)

bigGP said:


> why would you want a stab to be stronger on one side??


I don´t want that, but if you want to use your "spine tester" to compare different stabilizers you´re getting wrong results when you test something like a beiter.
Even the S3 is somewhat cone-shaped if I remeber that right, and this one for example would probably be worth it to compare it against yours?!

@B.H. 3 fingers?? Did these tests also include all European and Asian products, or was it limited to US products?


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

bigGP said:


> why would you want a stab to be stronger on one side?? LOL quality of construction and material is critical to achieve consistency.


For example, the people at Carbofast seem to think there is an advantage in that.



> A Stabiliser is a cantilevered beam - This means it is a beam that is restrained at one end (at the bow) and is not supported anywhere along the rest of its length.
> During the shot the rod is loaded by the weights at its tip as they resisting rotation of the bow, this loading causes the rod to bend.
> If the stabiliser is a simple tube, which has a constant diameter and a constant material thickness, the rod bends the more the closer you get to the bow and bends very little near to the weights. The tip does not need to be as stiff as the base of the rod.


Sounds reasonable to me, but I'm no engineer. What's your opinion about this? Would the weight saving be marginal?


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> it does make sense....but sorry Sugar Bear.....no deal.
> 
> Because to ME.....the Premier bar is THE BEST. If it wasn't guess what.... I wouldn't be shooting it. :doh:
> 
> ...


Hey BH, I know what you shot at Lancaster, 589!..:wink:

That score placed you in 170th place out of 173!...:mg:

You were "stung"!............


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

monty53 said:


> Hey BH, I know what you shot at Lancaster, 589!..:wink:
> 
> That score placed you in 170th place out of 173!...:mg:
> 
> You were "stung"!............


****************


Now that right there, i find interesting.  :happy1:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

monty53 said:


> Hey BH, I know what you shot at Lancaster, 589!..:wink:
> 
> That score placed you in 170th place out of 173!...:mg:
> 
> You were "stung"!............




has nothing to do with anything........ 4 release malfunctions which resulted in 2 ZEROs :doh: and 2 8s (first 8 I have shot in 2 years ) will do that to ya.......

and that still doesn't mean you or he knows me......


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Unk Bond said:


> ****************
> 
> 
> Now that right there, i find interesting.  :happy1:


why is that? take out the release problem and I shot right around my avg......615-620 range

never said I was Reo......or implied it :wink:


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> has nothing to do with anything........ 4 release malfunctions which resulted in 2 ZEROs :doh: and 2 8s (first 8 I have shot in 2 years ) will do that to ya.......
> 
> and that still doesn't mean you or he knows me......


You really have bad luck following you on those big tournaments. Once you were too sick, this time you had release malfunctions.

I wonder, what release did you use there and what was the exact malfunction?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Dado said:


> You really have bad luck following you on those big tournaments. Once you were too sick, this time you had release malfunctions.
> 
> I wonder, what release did you use there and what was the exact malfunction?


The sick was just sick...I actually almost passed out between ends....Larry Wise saved me with liquids and some eats.....puking from coughing to much is not fun :chortle:

I shot about what I would have shot....and that was like 3 or 4 years ago.....

Nationals I wasn't sick and didn't have bad luck and actually shot a PB everyday....so :wink:


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> The sick was just sick...I actually almost passed out between ends....Larry Wise saved me with liquids and some eats.....puking from coughing to much is not fun :chortle:
> 
> I shot about what I would have shot....and that was like 3 or 4 years ago.....
> 
> Nationals I wasn't sick and didn't have bad luck and actually shot a PB everyday....so :wink:


So, what was the release in question?

Actually, the LAS you were sick at was 2 years ago


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

t t t -------- :happy1:


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

mantra said:


> I don´t want that, but if you want to use your "spine tester" to compare different stabilizers you´re getting wrong results when you test something like a beiter.
> Even the S3 is somewhat cone-shaped if I remeber that right, and this one for example would probably be worth it to compare it against yours?!
> 
> @B.H. 3 fingers?? Did these tests also include all European and Asian products, or was it limited to US products?


my statement about why would you want that was a joke by the way. LOL

I have not really thought about it considering the dynamics of the bar on the shot would indicate to me i wouldnt want a bar thats not concentric in its wall thickness or spine??? That is my personal speculation and NOT a statement of fact.


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## samick (Feb 12, 2010)

SandSquid said:


> I coach several competitive shooters, some are even NFAA State champions and chasing National Championships.
> 
> 
> 
> I live in the West Tennessee area. Who are the shooters you coach that are chasing national championships. I hope they do well. I will be looking for thier names on the results. Good luck to your students.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I have been around long enough to know a few things about equipment. I also have the good fortune to own just about anything I want when it comes to archery gear and thus I have shot lots and lots and lots of different set ups extensively. Shibuya, Beiter, Cartel, Easton, Doinker, Bernie, WW, New Balance, etc on just about every riser around.

What Have I learned

There are no real secrets out there. I have yet to see a product that is clearly superior than all the others. WW limbs, Hoyt Limbs, Samick Limbs. Sure locs Shibuyas, Copper Johns. Some stuff is better than others-for example the beiter cushion plungers but they cost more than say the cavalier which-when tuned works as well as the beiter (just takes a bit more effort)

so when someone tells me there is some stabilizer that is so much better that stuff made by people who have been making stabilizers for years, my old BS detector tends to red line. 

years ago, I was a pretty decent skeet shooter. I shot a Perazzi Mirage and then the K gun. Both top of the line. Honestly, I could shoot a basic beretta just as well. One of my buddies switched to another gun. he was telling everyone that listened how his new 1700 dollar gun was better than the 7K K gun he used to shoot and its why he made one of the olympic teams. I knew this guy well enough that he wouldn't bs me. So I asked what was really going on

$$$$. He noted that the new gun really wasn't better than his old K gun but his scores were the same and the new gun's makers paid him alot of money-money he didn't get from Dieter Krieghoff. 

so bottom line with me, I don't tend to put much stock in endorsements unless they come from someone I know won't bs me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, you are absolutely right. My "B.S.Ometer" tends to go off at times like these. But I leave room for the truth, if in fact it does pan out... Like the new Hoyt bow, I hope the products are everything they claim they are. It's fun to shoot new and better stuff. Unfortunately, it rarely comes along...



> fanboys


Hey, I learned a new word today. :darkbeer:

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i am as much an equipment geek as anyone here--especially when i was just starting out...

not having access to unlimited funds,however, i cannot just go out and buy anything new that comes out..

after i took the plunge with my first complete set i did my research first and tried/borrowed as many items as i could but my first year was really still a buying spree..(got so much stuff from LAS that i have a standing diiner invitation from Mr. K anytime i am there..)

i eventually got to sell or trade some of what i bought if i wanted to try some new stuff..i only kept those which i felt suited me..

by now i have a pretty good idea of what i want in my set-up..

when something new or interesting comes along my first question is--do i want to change/replace some piece in my current set-up for it?

my answer will depend on my own research and opinions of people i know and respect..the research will include an actual trial whenver possible..

if everything is positive and i have the funds--i will buy it..

otherwise i will stay with my present set-up..

based on what i have read so far, i am sticking with the set-up in my signature...and just continue to practice and improve my form and--hopefully--my scores!!


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> B.H., no sweat man. I'm sure I'll learn more about them in time. I have always been quite happy with my Doinker products. But a man needs to keep learning to keep up... If this technology is in fact better (as it sounds the new recurve Hoyt came up with may be), then I'm sure the folks at Doinker will counter with something as good or better. I have a lot of confidence in those guys, and I like their attitudes and their approach.
> 
> Anyone who knows me knows that I don't care for heavy marketing and outrageous claims that can't really be tested. Too much of a science background and independant spirit in me I guess. I don't like to be told what I should like without any proof... And statements like "It's better - take our word for it" are red flags to me. If a product really is better, it will stand on it's own feet and soon enough everyone will know about it.
> 
> ...


Hi John, It's Blair from the B-Stinger. I created it and love archery and helping archers shoot their best. Your post looks sincere and you bring up some good points that I will try to address for you. 

Regarding your first paragraph, Doinker is trying to counter with better product which in the long run will be great for archery if they can get their eye back on the ball. Although they are coming out with product better than what they had, they are at least a year or more away from coming up with something to compete with the Premier bar.

Second paragraph: Neither myself or any employees at The Stabilizer Company has ever said, "it's better - take our word for it." Many shooter can testify that I have laid out the physics behind improved stabilization and how it applies to the individual shooter and their shooting dynamics. I have repeatedly then backed that up by setting a shooter up who has gone on to hold better, have a more forgiving shot, and shoot personal records or their best scores in years within a week many times. This includes top shooters in various classes like George Ryals, Sarah Lance, Bob Gentry, Ricky Thomas who was Doinker's only shooter on staff, a NFAA Pro-Freestyler and was responsible for building their product and was their U.S. Pro-Staff Director until he departed from them 4 days before Christmas 2009, Chris Berry, Mark Herring, Jesse Broadwater, and many others. We are beyond extremely busy and we are being copied and chased by at least two sponsors on this site. So I don't release the technical data at this point simply because of those that are willing to violate patents or copy product without giving it a thought. I will work with anyone however shooting any bar from any manufacturer. I've helped the Asain National team who shot W&W product and just last weekend I was helping a Posten shooter at the ASA in Florida.

Third paragraph: You say you like the science and that marketing is tricky. Consider this peice of marketing from a statistics prospective then. I created the Premier bar after Vegas in 2009 when I decided to jump in to the freestyle market. Jesse Broadwater was the first big fish to show up at a national tournament at Redding the first weekend in May. Since that time, there has been three top shelf shooters who have tried the Premier bars and not come over. I know two of them for sure were offered significant money to shoot another companies bars. Here is an abbreviated list of some of our Pro-Shooters: Jesse Broadwater, Shane Wills, Reo Wilde, Tim Gillingham, Levi and Samantha Morgan, Jeff Hopkins, Chance Beaubouef, Duane Price, Darrin Christenberry, Danny McCarthy, Jamie Van Natta, Christie Collin, Eric Griggs, Roger Hoyle, Rodger Willet, Russell Payne, Peter Elzinger, Sander Dolderman, Mike Leiter, and the list goes on. Check out this issue of The Tournament Archer for more names. The point is though, many of these archers turned down big contracts to shoot the Premier bars for free. Several of these shooters switched bars after the second day of the five day NFAA National Field Championships after testing them for the first time ever. Some switched to the Premier bars the day before and the day of the IBO World Championships. Since Redding last May, we have literally built by far and away the best Pro-Staff archery has ever seen. Statistically speaking, could that be reasonably possible with an average bar? The two shooters that took the contract with the other company, never worked with me to see the potential of the bars. I will say that if you were able to talk with those that did come over, they will say that there is a competitive advantage to shooting the Premier bars and that the extra money they will win this year from their big sponsors like their bow company, will more than make up for the few thousand dollars that the other company would pay to shoot their bars.

I know people are skeptical. When I first came out with the 12" B-Stinger people were skeptical then too. Now over 60 world and national scoring records have been set by shooters using the B-Stinger. We are so busy that I would be thankful for those who are skeptical to hold off and just watch. I will be at several of the big NFAA, IBO, ASA, and FITA shoots this year. When you see me, come by the booth and ask to try one out then. All the best, Blair

P.S. Currently we have working at The Stabilizer Company 3 Pro NFAA shooters who have won numerous state and regional shoots, have 7 Vegas titles, numerous national and world recorlds. Two Mechanical Engineers with one MBA, and two office staff who help with logistics. The bars and accessories we make are without comprimise and the system I use to help set-up shooters is critical as well. So we make sure that if a shooter calls in to ask a question, they aren't going to get a marketing smooth talker just regurgitating something they read hear on AT. You will get myself or a Pro Freestyler who's won the big tournaments and understands stabilization as it applies to archery and your specific needs.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

The biggest stabilizer in any static setup is the BOW, itself.

The most important stabilizer in the entire system is the archer. His/her muscles and the whole "bone on bone" concept. In other words:

Form.

Before B-Stinger effects the 2nd coming of Christ, please understand that any stabilization system is always going to be a secondary concept to form.

The extensive list of professional archers all know this. I wonder if they know that Shibuya and Cartel and many other companies offer 1/2 oz weights? 

B-Stinger: It's no cure for target panic.

There's a marketing line for you.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As I have ever thinked that the only way to compare stabilizer stiffness was to use a system similar to Arrow Spine tester, I'm pleased to know that in Las Vegars I will have the occasion to see that kind of system working and may be testing my son's long rod with it. 
As many should know, I'm a fan of extra stiffness in stabilizer systems, and I have worked in cooperation with several manufacturers to reach the holy grail of the slimmest/stifffest combination for the long rod, getting up to now compromises, only. Very stiff but big, very small but flexible.
There are at present 5 long rod manufacturers in Italy (Spigarelli, Fiberbow, EXE, Best, DA) , and best compromise my son has tested from them up to now is Galileo Slim stabilizers set from http://www.daattrezzaturesrl.it, that is 16 mm only in diameter, while the stiffest existing from them is Galileo, but is 30 mm in diameter. 
But, Galileo Slim long rods are not stiff enough for the level of top weights he needs, so he only uses side rods in 16 mm now, while manufacturer is developing a new special version of its long rod just for him, not ready yet.
In the mean time, the "compromise" he is using is made by a shorter (26" instead of 28") Soma CX2L long rod with 3 Alu arrow shafts epoxy glued inside to increse stifness, and believe me, this solution is VERY stiff, while a little bit heavier.
As far as standard commercial stabilizers are concerned in "normal" diameters, the stiffest "as it is" in our tests is still Soma CEX2.
Carbofast, Doinker and of course Beiter are in the "week" side theory of stabilization, were the stabilizer HAS to flex to compensate arrow oscillation.
Glad to hear that B-Stinger can be the top in the stiff theory side, and really curious to test it.


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> The sick was just sick...I actually almost passed out between ends....Larry Wise saved me with liquids and some eats.....puking from coughing to much is not fun :chortle:
> 
> I shot about what I would have shot....and that was like 3 or 4 years ago.....
> 
> Nationals I wasn't sick and didn't have bad luck and actually shot a PB everyday....so :wink:


Don't worry about it " we have all had bad day's"! Nervs, pressure, equipment failers has happened to us all at one point or another! keep striving to be your best!!!!


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

RI Max said:


> Hi John, It's Blair from the B-Stinger. I created it and love archery and helping archers shoot their best. Your post looks sincere and you bring up some good points that I will try to address for you.
> 
> Regarding your first paragraph, Doinker is trying to counter with better product which in the long run will be great for archery if they can get their eye back on the ball. Although they are coming out with product better than what they had, they are at least a year or more away from coming up with something to compete with the Premier bar.
> 
> ...


Blair , thanks for posting and comming to defend your product! Giving I believe an honest aproach to all the questions and statements that are being made!


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

RI Max said:


> I've helped the Asain National team who shot W&W product ...


? The continent of Asia has a National Team and they all shoot W&W? :mg:


I do think B-Stinger has done two things great for the industy...
1) Make people understand what a stabilizer is supposed to be doing for you...somewhere along the road this information was lost to a generation of archers imo...and they are now reminding everyone of what that damn long piece of rod on the front of the bow is for---and it ain't vibration dampening (thats just a bonus)
2) Push "change" Marketing into the stabilizer side of things...Bow manuf. have done this for years. "Buy this new bow this year and you will shoot better" AND how do they do it....BY GIVING THEM AWAY TO THE NATIONS TOP SHOOTERS! Keep this one thing in mind folks...Dave Cousins could kick your ass with a Wal-Mart bought PSE NOVA if he wanted too (as long as he had the time to tune it)...it ain't got much to do with the bow, the stabilizer...its the shooter...his/her knowledge of archery and his/her ability to have a strict consitant form.


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## SHADOW-MKII (Feb 19, 2009)

Well after this thread and others on the other forums and the responces buy the company and end users, I am sure of one thing. 

I will never put a B-Stinger Premier Bar on my Bow, Even if guarantees me a shot at Olympics Gold.

This is the sort of aggressive advertising that turned me off Borders.

Now I don't care If you product is better, I'd sooner lose than give you a little piece of add space by having your brand on my bow.

Andre


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> Well after this thread and others on the other forums and the responces buy the company and end users, I am sure of one thing.
> 
> I will never put a B-Stinger Premier Bar on my Bow, Even if guarantees me a shot at Olympics Gold.
> 
> ...




Well that is certainly your choice and i wish you well with it. If i was to do a search i am quite sure i could find similar posts for every single product ever made. A response like that about b-Stinger I can only imagine how you feel about other companies and their products that DO engage in viral marketing and ad campaign battles?:mg::mg:

Aggressive? Not letting people run rampant with untruths and speculation on a public forum is not aggressive IMO. What IS aggressive is the rest of the stabilizer industry trying to copy the B-Stinger bars and way of setting them up. i wish you all the luck in the world with your archery endeavors.:shade:


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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

While I think these people have a lot to learn about how to present themselves ("Asain" National team ??!!) cutting your nose to spite your face seems pretty silly.


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Aggressive Advertising*

This is great. A very entertaining thread, that I was happy to just sit back and read, but now I have to chime in. I can't wait to see the next new product, by some new company, that advertises passively.

"Try our product...it's pretty good, but it may not be the best."
or
"Our product is comparable to many others!"

If you're not going to try a product because it has followers, or people that like it and aren't afraid to voice their support on a forum like this...there isn't going to be too much out there to try now is there?

My goodness, could you imagine? No one would shoot Samick, W&W, Hoyt, PSE...all because they market their products as the best available. And each and every one of those companies has people on this forum that will go to bat for them.

Marketing is good business. If a company's product is bad, it won't sell and the company will go out of business regardless of the marketing. That's econ 101. 

I don't own B-Stingers but I can certainly see a lot of good shooters (several who are not mentioned on this thread) switching to them, and giving up sponsor money to do so. That speaks volumes. And it certainly leads me to wonder if they're on to something.

Outside of this, I have actually been able to test B-Stinger's shorter hunter-style stabilizers, and can definitely say that the bows reaction with it was smooth, straight...almost dead in the hand. I liked it. There's my opinion, which I'm happy to say is based on personal experience.

Brian


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I don't see anything wrong with the way they've presented themselves. If you can't promote yourself, who will? Exaggerated claims, so what? Businesses are not built by shrinking violets who hope people see the merit of their service or product. Caveat emptor.

Even though the thread has taken various twists and turns, there has been some good information passed along. I'm happy to see a manufacturer willing to post on the forum. As others have said, if the product is a cut above, the archery world will find out in short order.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I know people are skeptical. When I first came out with the 12" B-Stinger people were skeptical then too. Now over 60 world and national scoring records have been set by shooters using the B-Stinger. We are so busy that I would be thankful for those who are skeptical to hold off and just watch. I will be at several of the big NFAA, IBO, ASA, and FITA shoots this year. When you see me, come by the booth and ask to try one out then. All the best, Blair


Blair, good post. When I see product information from manufacturers, I expect it to be delivered in a professional manner. This is my hobby, not my profession, so I am free to say what I think. But if it were my profession, I can tell you that only the most professional and carefully considered press releases and responses to questions would leave my keyboard. That's what I expect from companies like yours as a shooter. Glad to see you met that standard. I wish all those who were promoting your product were doing the same. It would reflect better on your product. 

I have been offered a chance to test your product, but as of yet, have not seen one. I am as objective about this stuff as anyone you'll find - because I'm not sponsored by anyone, and I have the good fortune to use whatever products I feel work best for me. As with many shooters, I reserve some loyalty to those who have helped me out in the past, but when a product is better, it's better and I'll say so. I took it in the shorts for switching from Easton arrows to CX Nano's, but I'm not afraid to go "against the grain" of conventional wisdom or what's popular at the moment. To me, results are what matter, not marketing.

Good luck to you and as I've always said, I hope all these new products live up to their claims. Because it's just fun to shoot better gear. 

John.


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Blair, good post. When I see product information from manufacturers, I expect it to be delivered in a professional manner. This is my hobby, not my profession, so I am free to say what I think. But if it were my profession, I can tell you that only the most professional and carefully considered press releases and responses to questions would leave my keyboard. That's what I expect from companies like yours as a shooter. Glad to see you met that standard. I wish all those who were promoting your product were doing the same. It would reflect better on your product.
> 
> I have been offered a chance to test your product, but as of yet, have not seen one. I am as objective about this stuff as anyone you'll find - because I'm not sponsored by anyone, and I have the good fortune to use whatever products I feel work best for me. As with many shooters, I reserve some loyalty to those who have helped me out in the past, but when a product is better, it's better and I'll say so. I took it in the shorts for switching from Easton arrows to CX Nano's, but I'm not afraid to go "against the grain" of conventional wisdom or what's popular at the moment. To me, results are what matter, not marketing.
> 
> ...


Thank you John for the warm wishes. You are the kind of shooter I love working with. Open minded, but critical thinking...most of all, sincere. If you ever decide you would like to try one and are willing to work with me by giving me honest feedback and would be willing to try suggestions I have, I will send you a set-up when you're ready. Thanks, Blair 

I certainly don’t like seeing all the negative fighting that is going on about any product especially the B-Stinger obviously. If people will look closely at a majority of the B-Stinger threads, usually a new shooter comes on who is simply really excited about their results. Inevitably, someone who has never tried one comes on and launches personal attacks against that individual and their findings. It’s only one or two people, but it happens. When someone comes on and says, “I tried one and it did not work for me” generally B-Stinger shooters come on and try to help them out. Jawdad is a perfect example of this. On BH B-Stinger review thread, Jawsdad said he had tried the older XL bar and although it was fine, he did not see the obvious results so many others has seen. Several B-Stinger shooters posted after that and offered assistance with weight distribution, angles, lengths, etc. When JD says he doesn’t understand the physics on how this could possibly be better, myself and others offer to help explain it to him. He always refuses my help and others as far as I know, but no one picks on him or attacks him personally even though he continues to post the same thing over and over on B-Stinger threads. Regardless, I don’t like when people make baseless claims about my product, doinker’s product, or others and we see certain quality bow manufactures get bashed mercilessly by people who have no basis for what they say. Unfortunately, it is the few that ruin it for the masses by hating for no reason. That’s why I continue to say, support whoever you like. There are a lot of good manufacturers for every item we may need as shooters. If you need my help, I don’t care what you are shooting, I am here to help if I can.

To clear up the Asian “National Team” comment. You two guys miss the entire point of the comment. The point is, “I will offer help regardless of what you are shooting”. The sarcastic remarks are my point exactly. I wrote that entire lengthy post off the cuff and the fact that one or two people can sift through it to find one little thing to go off on is a sad comment about this site.

I was in the Philippians in 2007 on a mission trip taking medical supplies, bibles, food, and other relief items to those in need. The son of the long term missionary there was in to archery and shot with some of the Asian “Olympic” team members. That’s what they called themselves. I missed typed “National” instead of “Olympic” having the US National Team on my mind last night. The coach of this team shot in the Olympics around 1972 or 1976. One of his shooters had qualified for the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. I don’t remember his name off hand but he was the Philippine’s only shooter. I was told by the coach that because the of the small countries and islands in the region, they put together a team for the Olympics that they called the Asian Olympic Team. While I was there, the Olympic Coach for that team had heard that I was on that island in Dumeguete and asked if I could come by one day and do a workshop with his shooters (about 10 of them including the Philippine shooter that did compete in China 2008). I agreed and went over one evening to work with them. It turned out they all had some pretty cool looking Easton accessories on their bows. Stuff I had not seen in the Easton catalogs before. After noticing it over and over for a half hour or so, I finally stopped and asked where they get this cool Easton product from? They laughed and explained that although they love Easton, they cannot afford it over there and so they buy Win & Win product and make Easton stickers and put it over there accessories. So “Yes”, they were all shooting W&W product.

Just to clarify again for those one or two who are about to scrub every word I just typed, my whole point is: “I am here to help those who are interested in help.” Shoot what works best for you and all the best, Blair


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

*Someone has to say it,....so i will!*



RI Max said:


> Thank you John for the warm wishes. You are the kind of shooter I love working with. Open minded, but critical thinking...most of all, sincere. If you ever decide you would like to try one and are willing to work with me by giving me honest feedback and would be willing to try suggestions I have, I will send you a set-up when you're ready. Thanks, Blair
> 
> I certainly don’t like seeing all the negative fighting that is going on about any product especially the B-Stinger obviously. If people will look closely at a majority of the B-Stinger threads, usually a new shooter comes on who is simply really excited about their results. Inevitably, someone who has never tried one comes on and launches personal attacks against that individual and their findings. It’s only one or two people, but it happens. When someone comes on and says, “I tried one and it did not work for me” generally B-Stinger shooters come on and try to help them out. Jawdad is a perfect example of this. On BH B-Stinger review thread, Jawsdad said he had tried the older XL bar and although it was fine, he did not see the obvious results so many others has seen. Several B-Stinger shooters posted after that and offered assistance with weight distribution, angles, lengths, etc. When JD says he doesn’t understand the physics on how this could possibly be better, myself and others offer to help explain it to him. He always refuses my help and others as far as I know, but no one picks on him or attacks him personally even though he continues to post the same thing over and over on B-Stinger threads. Regardless, I don’t like when people make baseless claims about my product, doinker’s product, or others and we see certain quality bow manufactures get bashed mercilessly by people who have no basis for what they say. Unfortunately, it is the few that ruin it for the masses by hating for no reason. That’s why I continue to say, support whoever you like. There are a lot of good manufacturers for every item we may need as shooters. If you need my help, I don’t care what you are shooting, I am here to help if I can.
> 
> ...


SOMEONE HAS TO SAY IT,....SO I WILL!

The quality and integrity of the products is not the debate!
I for one have not tried them but will do so to make up my own mind!

1) It's the "talking down" at people who question the "magical qualities" of the product by BH and bigGP!

2) It's the "Holier than Thou", "How dare you question what I say" and "arrogant attitude" they display when dealing with people on this forum!

That is what turns people off and makes them respond accordingly!

I am sure the stabilizers are as good as anything else out there!
Are they better?...Only time will tell.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

We are certainly a partisan society, you are either with us or against us. The recent posts were great pointing out some of the advantages of a new and popular product. Like Limbwalker I'm always interested in truly innovative gear. What I do find different about this product is that Blair makes a point about needing to tweak each stabilizer to a particular shooter. Whether this added attention to detail is what gives most of the added points, or just some of them it is food for thought for other manufacturers and shooters. Optimizing stabilization of the entire package: shooter, bow and stabilizer is key.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

monty53 said:


> SOMEONE HAS TO SAY IT,....SO I WILL!
> 
> The quality and integrity of the products is not the debate!
> I for one have not tried them but will do so to make up my own mind!
> ...




-----------------------

X2 
I couldn't agree more.


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

"Fanboys" of various companies will debate. Go back and check the beginning of this thread again. You will see the developement of the argueing. Good questions are being asked and then people start posting things that are baseless such as, "there is clever wordsmithing going on here...". Others before expressed skeptical attitudes with no problems. It is not unusual for someone who expresses excitement over a new product to be offended when someone who has only seen pictures of it makes absolute comments about how it is impossible for a product to be better than what's exsisted in the past. 

I run B-Stinger's marketing campaign by the way. If a shooter like George Ryals who has posted his results on this forum says that he was a 23 - 25 x count shooter on a Vegas face and his first 10 rounds after getting his B-Stinger were not lower than a 28x round and a bunch of people trash him as a "Fanboy". If he defends himself, that's not a B-Stinger marketing campaign. That's just a shooter setting the record straight. Good shooting, Blair


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

RI Max said:


> "Fanboys" of various companies will debate. Go back and check the beginning of this thread again. You will see the developement of the argueing. Good questions are being asked and then people start posting things that are baseless such as, "there is clever wordsmithing going on here...". Others before expressed skeptical attitudes with no problems. It is not unusual for someone who expresses excitement over a new product to be offended when someone who has only seen pictures of it makes absolute comments about how it is impossible for a product to be better than what's exsisted in the past.
> 
> I run B-Stinger's marketing campaign by the way. If a shooter like George Ryals who has posted his results on this forum says that he was a 23 - 25 x count shooter on a Vegas face and his first 10 rounds after getting his B-Stinger were not lower than a 28x round and a bunch of people trash him as a "Fanboy". If he defends himself, that's not a B-Stinger marketing campaign. That's just a shooter setting the record straight. Good shooting, Blair


You always mention names!

There's top shooters that were winning big tournaments before switching to b-stingers who are still winning.

There's other shooters who were finishing down the line and close to last at big tournaments before switching to b-stingers who are still finishing down the line and close to last.

What has changed?.....Nothing!

If b-stingers were the answer there'll be no losers!

I don't mind you guys promoting your product.
It's the way some choose to promote them!

There's no "people skills" which is needed to promote tactfully.
They allow their emotions to show with each post which makes them "fan boys" at best!

And,......when there's a lot of snow outside there's nothing better to do but post!.....


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

monty53 said:


> You always mention names!
> 
> There's top shooters that were winning big tournaments before switching to b-stingers who are still winning.
> 
> ...


Hi Monty, If a shooter is excited about a new product and posts that here, that's not me or any other companies choice on "how to promote". That's just someone excited about improvement.

I, nor anyone at B-Stinger has said anything to the effect of, "shoot B-Stinger and you won't lose." I agree with you in that it would be a crazy statement. I mention names because these are the very best shooters on earth and if someone is familiar with "probability" they would at least be curious as to why all those people turned down money up front, to shoot a bar with no money up front being offered. I also never said these guys can't lose or a shooter shooting another product can't beat them. I have numerous times though said and posted on this forum, that a shooter like Reo or Jesse on any given day can put on another companies bar and shoot great as Reo did last year at Lancaster and Vegas. So why do they switch then??? It is because with a more stabile platform to shoot from which also creates more forgiveness, they all state they shoot consistently better. Their great days are more frequent and their bad days are not so bad.

I first told Tim Gillingham about the bars at Redding 2009. He told me he had tried everything and that nothing stood out above the rest. Privately, I told him that if he wanted to try something he had not tried before that I could help him hold better and create a more forgiving platform to shoot from. I told him I know my claims are absurd and he has heard it all before. I asked him though that if those claims are the least bit interesting to him that the next time he passes Jesse Broadwater, Cabe Johnson, or Greg Poole to ask them if what I am telling him is true. If they concur, then ask me to show you when you're ready. It took about three months when Tim finally called. He was still skeptical and said he didn't believe but he had to see for himself. Greg Poole went to his house to work with him. Within two hours Tim stated that he has never held so steady in his entire life. To everyone, take this for whatever you like. This part of the post isn't for Monty or people who have made up their minds even though they have no experience with this product or system. This post is for those on the fence who are skeptical and don't want to spend the dollars just to be taken again. Bide your time till our paths cross or you have a local shooter who is using the bars. Call me if you need help setting them up to get the very best out of the product and make up your own mind. All the best, Blair


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Whether you think the B-Stinger XL premier is a gimmick or just viral marketing is of NO consequence to ANYONE that knows better. The FACT is they are not a gimmick,over hyped or not worth the money. If you want a less expensive stab then go by one but you are NOT going to get a stabilizer the quality or performance of the B-Stinger for less $$$ and to even imply this is a option just shows a lack of understanding. Better material,better R&D and better construction makes ANY product cost more? show me where this principal doesn't apply?? Do you walk into a car dealer and say you want to keep up with a Lambo but only want to pay for a Hyundai? Some probably do?? LMAO 

This is what bigGP said.

It seems absolute. It outright states that any product less expensive than a B-Stinger is not as good. Interestingly, B-Stinger is certainly one of if not THE most expensive freestyle stabilizers. So, anyone who asks questions shows a lack of understanding. Wow.

Honestly, the stabilizer market has about as much R&D as the Pet Rock. I think that was patented too.

To even imply that a stabilizer improves body posture, one brand over another, is crazy stupid. All things being equal...weight is weight.

I'm sure you're company is helpful, but you're selling your product to us unknowns and when we get skeptical you throw out LOTS of names of famous people in an effort to say, "If so-and-so uses our product and has no issues, what's your problem?"

I started getting cold feet with the excessive thread bombing by overzealous fans. You lost me at biomechanical advantage completely.

And I don't want to hold off talking about this until you can place a product in every pro's hands. All the while you get to place ads. Why am I to keep quiet in the meantime?


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## RI Max (Sep 6, 2006)

I've never said that any stabilizer less expensive is not as good. I use measurable variables to determine a stabilizers effectiveness. I spend all day everyday answering questions from people who don't understand or are skeptical, so if someone were to imply that I think anyone who asks a question lacks understanding, that would simply be untrue. If you read through my posts, you will see that I have addressed the principles of physics as it applies to the stabilizer for an archer many many times. The names are for what I stated earlier, if a person considers how many have come on board and under what circumstances, it will mathematically compel them to take a closer look.

I didn't asked anyone to stay quiet or not ask questions. I encouraged those on the fence who want to know to keep watching and they will soon get a chance to test them for themselves. I hope those sincere keep asking questions. It is important information and I am happy to share it with them. Take a look at Stringwalker's posts. Some were very skeptical but they were sincere also. I invited him to test them out when he is ready.

Bio Mechanical advantage is a term the Coach Kisik Lee used to decribe what he saw with his shooters. You can ask him directly about that comment. I will say that he has pointed it out to me more than once while watching his shooters. I look at the bars, limb pockets, sight, level, etc. when I am working with shooters. He also looks at the shooters posture and movement in that posture. I have seen a shooter going from staying gently back and forth to standing still while at full draw as we tested and he pointed it out to me. It turns out weight is weight but it's application can vary greatly. If it didn't, then weather you placed it all on the riser or out on the distal ends of the bars would make no difference. How rigidly it was attached to the bow also would make no difference. The strength to weigth ratio or the Young's modulus or the materials used in the bars would make no difference. Those things do make a considerable difference however. So although weight is technically weight, its application to archery and stabilization make it not all the same.

With that being said, I completely understand people's skeptism. The claims that a stabilizer can make a difference in your shooting is not only against the grain but appears to be a ridiculous statement. I wish you all the best with whatever product you shoot. Take care, Blair


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i think blair has answered the concerns stated as well as anyone else in his postion..

i still would not want to get one without trying it first but am now at least curious about it...


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Blair,

Honestly, "if" you make the best stabilizer on the market today...more power to you.

In BHFS, I have no doubt you do. None...I think you came up with an awesome solution to a 12" limitation ruling. Awesome work...and it shows.

I sincerely believe that in the freestyle market there is cause to believe that other solutions exist at a price comparable or significantly less to your product. And we should applaud their efforts to compete, should we not?

Maybe you're aware of how your employees and proponents discuss your products...and maybe not. Now you are, for sure.

It sickened me to be told that my opinions are of no consequence to those who KNOW by a member of your staff. That is not good business. And I thought I spent time trying to research things...to be better informed.

Well, we've both got better things to do now, eh? I should get back to practicing...


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## bigGP (Dec 9, 2002)

DariusXV said:


> Whether you think the B-Stinger XL premier is a gimmick or just viral marketing is of NO consequence to ANYONE that knows better. The FACT is they are not a gimmick,over hyped or not worth the money. If you want a less expensive stab then go by one but you are NOT going to get a stabilizer the quality or performance of the B-Stinger for less $$$ and to even imply this is a option just shows a lack of understanding. Better material,better R&D and better construction makes ANY product cost more? show me where this principal doesn't apply?? Do you walk into a car dealer and say you want to keep up with a Lambo but only want to pay for a Hyundai? Some probably do?? LMAO
> 
> This is what bigGP said.
> 
> ...




WOW!!! that pretty much sums it up about understanding.:mg: My point was that when the time and money is spent on R&D ( believe it or not) better material and a more expensive construction process generally a more expensive and better performing product is the result. the fact that it is new and so is the way we set them up makes for all the rage for haters to jump in and hate as thats a haters job whether they understand or have even SEEN OR SHOT the product.As to the biomechanics statement thats not even what we said thats coach Lee ( Love him or hate him). the pros that everyone seems so fast to discount as they won before so what gives............they are shooting PERSONAL BESTS since changing to the B-Stinger whether they win or loose thats what matters.( To them anyway but i am sure the way YOU measure their shooting matters more). Continue questioning B-Stinger and how we do what we do and if it doesn't work for you bummer but what other stabilizer company is gonna help you tune your rig??? I mean come on now are you really gonna take tuning advise from a stabilizer company that has ZERO archers that even work there? maybe you will? 

Dont keep quite in the meantime and dont get cold feet. but dont throw out the statements you do and then get all butt hurt when its addressed?? Sorry to have offended you or hurt your feelings. My sincerest apologies i tend to just say it as i see it that way i dont have to worry about tip toeing around 900 pound gorillas in the room or forget what i said to certain people. I can handle anything you have to say but please at least try the product before speak as the authority or slam it.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Blair... Since you mention me specifically, I would like to respond to clarify my position.


1) Yes, you have offered assistance and I told you I appreciated the offer, but I no longer had the bars with which to work. Based on my experience with the XL bars, I choose not to invest in the premiere bars. My experience with the XL bars was essentially neutral as I saw no gain or loss while using them. I did not expect that there was anything about the premier bar that would change that so I invested my dollars in other areas that I thought would help.

On the topic of assistance. Please tell me, other than adding or subtracting weight from the end of the front bar; and changing the weight and or angles of vbar(s), what else is there that you can offer that I can't do on my own? You can't change the length of the bar (well, YOU can, you have all the bars you need in your possession, but I had a SINGLE bar). I realize I may not have a phd in astrophysics or advanced mathematics, but I can screw and unscrew weights from a bar and change the angle of a vbar. I don't mean to sound coy, but please help me understand if there is more to it than that. Perhaps I'm not seeing the forest for the trees on this, but that's my understanding.

2) I do understand the physics and to a large extent I disagree with your philosophy. Not necessarily your philosophy as a whole as I agree that your methodology and approach will work for SOME, but it will not work for ALL. I've shot my best scores since I completely re-worked my setup and that involved adding weight to my riser and lowering my center of gravity. Am I going to beat Reo or any of your army of pro shooters, of course I'm not. But I'm not going to do that with any stabilizer setup. 

When I say I don't understand the physics, I'm saying that in response to the blind comments that contuinally are made saying "It's just simple physics"; when I don't believe it is. Different bows, different people, different needs, they all different variables at work and I don't believe any 1 bar with a static characteristic aside from adding/substracting weight can work in every case.



I apologize if I have offended your product, or you specifically. I mean you no ill will. However, regarding some of those that represent your product. I think really present poorly on the product and the sport with their superior and elitist attitudes. And to those individuals, I do not apologize at all.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

t t t ------Very interesting and very entertaining, to say the least.


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## mike hogan (Nov 22, 2007)

yes----------interesting indeed


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

*I thought I'd pop back on*

and I see I haven't missed a whole lot from AT.

Some of the names have changed though....

*sigh*

-Andrew


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