# Why I don't like the term "float"



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cbrunson, I really enjoy reading your stuff. You are a guy that gets in the truck and you go to league nights and competitions and you have chosen to not just shoot the same old 300 50x and sit on it as all you have to offer. 

For me I have to remind myself where I came from and in 2006 I was shooting with fingers and a old bear white tail 2, I would come to full draw and put my pin about 2 feet above the spot and then in a smooth fashon begin dropping the pin to the spot and just as it got there I snapped my fingers forward and continued past the spot. Lets see I had 5 arrows and I shot at the same spot for years with those arrows and never broke any nocks.

So for me floating is no different than back tension and it is something that was mentioned and talked about and for a person that simply sucked like me that had no coach and just a target in the back yard it was a road to be traveled and it has lead me to my current level.

As I progress to my next level can I say that I won't possibly change and not rely on shooting with float, no I can't. Right now I am still shrinking my group inside the x and I am right at 80% inside out x shots for every group of arrows I send to the target. Who knows if I get to 90% or above I may or may not be floating anymore but I am not there yet so I can't tell you what it is going to take.

One thing that i can tell you is that when I am on a 3d course there is a phrase that I find myself saying on a regular basis when I let down because the shot didn't happen within my shot window. "That was a good Hold", it actually kind of bothers me when I say it because I didn't use the term float but to be honest I don't like saying the word float. I much rather say Hold when it is a good one and then when I hit off to the side of the 12 ring a little I will say I floated off the spot when it fired so the term float has kind of became a negative word that I only use when things don't work out.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I can see where you're going here with the term float, and I can understand your reasoning behind it for sure. Maybe changing the phrase to trusting your shot would be better.?. 

Last night for instance I had an occurence with all of this. I was shooting at 50m and checking my marks on my new bow and noticed my point of impacts were all over the place. Granted it was windy in gusts so I thought at first maybe that had something to do with it. It was still pretty bad though. So I decided to move up to 20 and shoot at a Vegas face for a minute just to get some shots in and have some fun. The only thing was, my impact points were still horrible. Not just 9's or 8's, but bottom of the red, top, side. Scattered pretty bad. 

The next part though goes along with what you mentioned in your post. I went from shooting my shot to focusing really hard on where I was aiming and trying to see the pin as the shot went off to see if it was really me or what. Turned out I had a bent blade and it was kicking the arrow, but what all of this really showed me was that I have become so comfortable in my shot and knowing my results that I had to mentally focus on putting a death hold on the pin to keep it centered. 

To me this proves that I have trust in my shot and let it run each time I anchor in, and have an expectation on the results I will get because of it. I have gotten to where I don't focus on how the pin floats so much as letting things happen. Now, I am aware enough that if how the pin is moving is out of place and odd to start over, or more so based on my feel and length of the shot I will let down, but I don't really focus much on how far the pin is moving around anymore. I put the work in to minimize it as much as my body and bow will allow it and now I know what I have to do to get it there.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Early last season i think one of the biggest lessons that I learned about hinge shooting was that when I was at full draw and aiming at a 12 ring on a 3d course and the pin moved off the 12 ring and I used my arm muscles to try and move the pin back to the 12 ring the hinge would stinking fire every stinking time and I would hit just out of the 12 ring. So for me the lesson was that when hinge shooting you are usually right on the edge of the hinge firing and by adding a little muscle tension into the system can fire the hinge so just don't do it. I learned that by seeing it float off the 12 ring did suck but it was going to move back to the 12 ring and hopefully then the hinge would fire. 

Now on a 30 shot course when I am shooting average to good I would say that there are going to be around 7 shots where my pin floats off of the 12 ring on shots 40 yards or less and before learning this lesson probably 5 or 6 of them would result in poor shots hitting off of the 12 ring in the direction where it floated and firing when I use a muscle to fix the problem. Now when i see this happen I just continue the shot and the pin comes back to the 12 ring and I hit dead on probably 5 out of the 7 shots so yes it does suck when the hinge fires when the pin is off the 12 ring those 2 times but I am ok with those two because the other 5 were really good.

The one thing that i do being a spectator shooter is that I am the one that is controlling the abort button and letting down. When my pin is holding steady and for some reason it slowly moves in a direction and it isn't doing something weird I am ok with that and I continue with the shot but if the pin moves in a weird or sudden way I push the abort button. To me trusting the float doesn't mean that you let stupid float do its thing, trusting my float means that I have a idea of what my good and optimal float pattern looks like and I am going to allow it to happen. If some weird or sudden thing shows up I let down and don't allow it to happen. But the one thing I refuse to do is try and strangle the pin and force it to do anything.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

your very last paragraph, is the down fall of your entire post, my estimation. everything above it, is sensible,.... and then you state that float refers to "accepting visible movement". if we could sit dead still on the x all the time, I could accept that concept, but realistically, we cannot establish no movement ....the times the dot does sit perfectly still, are very far and few between and are actually the oddball occurrence. if this weren't true, we wouldn't be asking ourselves, "why can't I sit like that all the time".
one hole targets don't come from sitting dead still on the x,.. they come from having minimal range of float and a good release execution and trusting that the arrow will go to the middle, given you do your part correctly.....ie. "trusting your float", because "trusting your float", has nothing to do with the range of movement you see, or don't see, given that what you see, is reasonably capable of producing an arrow that goes to the middle.
in context,....I can be reasonably sure, that if my float, ranges from one side of the x ring to the other, on a 5 spot target, or similarly, my float rages from one side of the 10 ring to the other, on a Vegas target, and no further, I will produce an "x" on either face, providing I execute an equally good release. 
this is where I have a problem with those who insist I suggest impossibilities, rather than possibilities. to suggest that anyone can hold dead still on a target all the time, is an impossibility,..... why even suggest it. the impossibility, is suggesting that there is truly no perceivable movement......it can be minimal,...... but not, "non existent".
when one won't accept that movement is normal and expected, they are setting themselves up for over controlling the sight picture. now, that's not to suggest that I discourage people from trying to achieve "no movement", just that realistically, it cannot be done, so why try to replace the term "float", with something that doesn't exist ?.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Padgett, your last paragraph, couldn't be more exactly to the content of what "float" is....good on you.
the element of only having to have access to that "abort button" while executing the shot, is the whole idea, of "trusting the float". it doesn't involve "ONLY" what we see in our sight picture.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Ronw, I read cbrunson's post to start this discussion and I get a good feel for what he is experiencing and what he believes in and that he is enjoying his shooting and has more to learn. Then I read your post and when I get done reading I can't tell what you were trying to accomplish, is it to help or bash or something but I feel like I have to read it two more times to try and figure out what in the world I was supposed to get from it.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

I like the float because when my dot returns to the x, I hit it. I struggled with the idea of why i couldnt hold the dot in the x the whole time and thought it must be a strength issue. I personally like 80-90% aim and 10% float. A lot of it has to do with form and balance. I can only hold perfectly still on target when the front and back end are in balance. Just the other day I was fighting my bow as I just got a 1/2" smaller mod and wasn't feeling right. I kept holding low which usually is caused by too long a DL. I wanted to figure the dot holding low out because I had dropped my back shoulder, shortened d loop, everything folks said would cause the dot to hold just below the x. Target panic was not a thought in my mind because holding low was consistent and felt like I just couldn't hold the weight up. Long story short, I switched back to the longer mod and was back on target with limited float. The word float just eases the mind for a second so its not so stressed out about staying on target, but doesn't mean the mind is not focused. The pin may float around a little but the mind and body are dead focused on the x always. I didn't like the word float at first because it made me think of something out of control but now I just simply know its seconds of down time for the mind and body to recalibrate and work in unison again. Maybe "recalibration" is more exciting a term then "float . Good read by the way!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I read cbrunsons last paragraph again and yeah i am experiencing exactly what he was referring to, I am seeing a very high percentage of shots where the pin simply isn't moving from the time I settle in on the x to the time that the shot fires. It isn't once a day either, it is probably 40 out of the 100 arrows that I shoot per session where I settle inside the x somewhere and it may not be perfectly centered and the pin is motionless and my hinge fires relatively early in the shot window during while it is sitting still. There will be another 30 shots out of the 100 where it was sitting perfectly still for a couple seconds and then it starts moving and my shot fires then. and then there are a few shots where the pin comes to the x and it is a little jumpy or wiggly during the entire shot window and it stays completely inside the x. 

So to try and convince me that it is impossible is not going to happen because I am acutally seeing it happen every day, do I think I can shoot 100% of the time with a pin that is motionless. No. Do I think I can raise the percentage of shots during a day where the hinge fires while the pin is motionless, yes. Right now if I had my hinge firing more consistently in the first half of my shot window i could shoot almost 70% of my shots when the pin was basically motionless but I am not able to do that. I am shooting a surprise release and I simply run a engine and it doesn't always fire during that time when the pin is motionless. It would be sweet if my pin would remain that way for 6 seconds but it doesn't, it is only a couple.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> your very last paragraph, is the down fall of your entire post, my estimation. everything above it, is sensible,.... and then you state that float refers to "accepting visible movement". if we could sit dead still on the x all the time, I could accept that concept, but realistically, we cannot establish no movement ....the times the dot does sit perfectly still, are very far and few between and are actually the oddball occurrence. if this weren't true, we wouldn't be asking ourselves, "why can't I sit like that all the time".
> one hole targets don't come from sitting dead still on the x,.. they come from having minimal range of float and a good release execution and trusting that the arrow will go to the middle, given you do your part correctly.....ie. "trusting your float", because "trusting your float", has nothing to do with the range of movement you see, or don't see, given that what you see, is reasonably capable of producing an arrow that goes to the middle.
> in context,....I can be reasonably sure, that if my float, ranges from one side of the x ring to the other, on a 5 spot target, or similarly, my float rages from one side of the 10 ring to the other, on a Vegas target, and no further, I will produce an "x" on either face, providing I execute an equally good release.
> this is where I have a problem with those who insist I suggest impossibilities, rather than possibilities. to suggest that anyone can hold dead still on a target all the time, is an impossibility,..... why even suggest it. the impossibility, is suggesting that there is truly no perceivable movement......it can be minimal,...... but not, "non existent".
> when one won't accept that movement is normal and expected, they are setting themselves up for over controlling the sight picture. now, that's not to suggest that I discourage people from trying to achieve "no movement", just that realistically, it cannot be done, so why try to replace the term "float", with something that doesn't exist ?.


I don't expect that you should get too hung up on having a good hold. I don't think it would serve you well. If a light clicks on for one person, and that person starts addressing the real issues with holding, then it is worth the effort for abandoning a useless term. I am fairly confident that you have no idea what the hold is like when you produce one hole spots. 

That doesn't mean I claim to shoot one hole spots consistently, but putting the effort forth to try to get it perfectly right every time has produced many 25-27x Vegas targets. 

Now to be clear, I agree that someone else that shoots at a high level, that has built a foundation on the premise of just "feeling" the shot, or not consciously working through it can be very successful, and shooting at a higher level than I do. It's all relative to personality traits. But there are some people like me that need to focus on aspects of the shot.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett said:


> I read cbrunsons last paragraph again and yeah i am experiencing exactly what he was referring to, I am seeing a very high percentage of shots where the pin simply isn't moving from the time I settle in on the x to the time that the shot fires. It isn't once a day either, it is probably 40 out of the 100 arrows that I shoot per session where I settle inside the x somewhere and it may not be perfectly centered and the pin is motionless and my hinge fires relatively early in the shot window during while it is sitting still. There will be another 30 shots out of the 100 where it was sitting perfectly still for a couple seconds and then it starts moving and my shot fires then. and then there are a few shots where the pin comes to the x and it is a little jumpy or wiggly during the entire shot window and it stays completely inside the x.
> 
> So to try and convince me that it is impossible is not going to happen because I am acutally seeing it happen every day, do I think I can shoot 100% of the time with a pin that is motionless. No. Do I think I can raise the percentage of shots during a day where the hinge fires while the pin is motionless, yes. Right now if I had my hinge firing more consistently in the first half of my shot window i could shoot almost 70% of my shots when the pin was basically motionless but I am not able to do that. I am shooting a surprise release and I simply run a engine and it doesn't always fire during that time when the pin is motionless. It would be sweet if my pin would remain that way for 6 seconds but it doesn't, it is only a couple.


Great post!!

That doesn't mean you necessarily abandon the shot when it isn't absolutely perfect. You get a feel for those that are still close enough to produce a good shot and execute anyway. It's when you open up the tolerance for movement that you get into trouble.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the things that I have done the last year is instead of forcing my pin because I made a decision not to do that was to ask it to shrink. It is funny how a person thinks because we hear that we need to just float and leave it alone and let it do what it wants like a little 6 year old kid at a christmas gathering that won't mind because his idiot parents don't believe in telling him NO.

Well, I just decided to see my current float size and I asked myself to shrink it buy giving it goals such as can I float without the pin leaving the 5-spot x ring. Once I got to that point I decided to see if I could float inside out on a x ring. So by giving myself goals to work towards with my float I found that I was able to do it. This winter I actually tried to visualize floating on a vegas baby x as my next goal, problem is I can't see them through my 4x lens so I have to visualize the baby x and try and float on it without leaving it.

For me I have found this year that I was able to shrink my arrow group on the indoor faces of vegas and 5-spot by doing two things, working on execution of my hinge and thinking about my float being smaller that it was before.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Padgett said:


> One of the things that I have done the last year is instead of forcing my pin because I made a decision not to do that was to ask it to shrink. It is funny how a person thinks because we hear that we need to just float and leave it alone and let it do what it wants like a little 6 year old kid at a christmas gathering that won't mind because his idiot parents don't believe in telling him NO.
> 
> Well, I just decided to see my current float size and I asked myself to shrink it buy giving it goals such as can I float without the pin leaving the 5-spot x ring. Once I got to that point I decided to see if I could float inside out on a x ring. So by giving myself goals to work towards with my float I found that I was able to do it. This winter I actually tried to visualize floating on a vegas baby x as my next goal, problem is I can't see them through my 4x lens so I have to visualize the baby x and try and float on it without leaving it.
> 
> For me I have found this year that I was able to shrink my arrow group on the indoor faces of vegas and 5-spot by doing two things, working on execution of my hinge and thinking about my float being smaller that it was before.


That is a good practice. I generally try to keep my float in the x ring so I'm not promoting huge swings in movement. 

Reading what you wrote, it made me think of making some target faces with just x rings. I'm a soccer coach and sometimes I have my kids practice with tennis balls so that when the use the soccer ball it seems way easier. Good goals Padget. Setting tighter goals is smart. This is a good thread on sight picture development and really helps me. I've read a lot from a lot of people and watched a ton of pros on YouTube. Lately I've been experimenting myself with really figuring out what works for me and having the float allows me that small window of letting go and then affirmation the pin returns to the x.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Here are the things that have reduced my float and also started producing the no perceived movement portions of the float, I compare it to in the beginning my sight bubble had water in it and now my sight bubble has corn syrup in it:

1. I laid out 40 some ounces of weight and started with bare stabs with no weight on them and experimented with combinations.

2. I have specifically worked on defining my natural float when I have no intentions of actually firing the bow and knowing what it looks like.

3. I then worked on my transition from being on the thumb peg to being off the peg and not having any wiggles in the pin.

4. I have shot with many methods of firing a hinge and have picked the one that allows me to shoot with my natural float.

5. I shoot with a low grip where my bones in my forarm are pushing into the handle with little to no pressure from the top of my grip.

6. During shot execution I absolutely refuse to deviate from my engine, if I add any pressures anywhere it will mess with the float.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I personally think it's just a matter of semantics. 
Float can be many things. Float can be imperceptibly small, or large and chaotic.
To me, float and hold are pretty interchangeable.
To some "hold" may imply trying to force the pin still, creating tension, where "float" seems less aggressive.
It's all a matter of how literally you take something. No one holds perfectly still. But we all want to get so close to that, that we're splitting hairs.
DEAD still to one guy might be just keeping it in the X ring. For someone else it may be holding it in the center of the actual letter X.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the term, we still here pros use it and say they can't hold still, and that no one can. Of course what they call "not holding still" some of us would call holding dead steady.
For me, know that when I use it, I use it very literally. It's not to imply that you have to accept a lot of movement, just acknowledging there is some movement, even if it's so good that it's hard to see.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

To the OP.

The reason I don't use the term mentioned in the OP is because I despise it. 

Why do I despise it? Because the term contains a negative connotation. In some ways it's an admission that you can shoot just as well with a whole bunch of sight movement as you can with very little to none. In most cases this is just not the case. The term also indicates that there is something impossible to those who would try to achieve it. 

At this point, I will invoke a Zig Ziglar reference because it applies; *"Positive thinking will not allow you to do everything well, but it will allow you to do EVERYthing better than negative thinking."*

^ That quote will be difficult to apply to the term "float" for those who flounder in mediocrity for their entire archery career. And that unwillingness to push beyond the commonly held belief is exactly what holds so many people back.


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## randal L (Jun 11, 2005)

I am 65 years old who loves archery. I enjoy shooting all types of it. You guys have taught me a lot on here. I canstill shoot an ocassional 300 5 spot 50x's. I enjoy 3








I am a 65 year old man that enjoys all types of archery. I can still shoot an ocassional 300 5 spot with 50x. But I really enjoy you guys on this forum discussing the finer points of archery. I love 3D and shoot aboit 35 shoots a year. To get to my point. The word float probably kept me in archery. My personality is or was that I was a perfectionist. So that meant I was allowed no movement. Which eventually led to the most severe taget panic anyone could have. Through the years I was introduced to the word float and that it was acceptable. Now I work at it, keep my bow arm relaxed and just go floating along. I think by relaxing I shrink my float and don't try and be perfect








d mainly


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Great info in these posts and some great insight.

I seem to think if it as a "floating-hold". Some shooting sessions the hold is better than the float, and yet the float lets the hold result in a great shot.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Some have the float of a bobber in whitecaps, some have the float of a supertanker in port, we should all strive for the latter, but need to know it doesn't happen overnight.
I guess may you could look at the term "let it float" as accepting the amount of movement your hold gives you at this very moment in time. If it is a larger movement, but your shooting for score, you have to deal with it. Yes, you want to practice to reduce it in the future, but you got to do the best with what you have right now.
In the end maybe it's just saying there is a time for practice and evolution of your shot.... The 3rd end of a tournament probably isn't the right time for it.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Is it - 

I am not "floating steady" today or is it I am not "holding steady" today.

Clarification please.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the hardest things for me is to routinely have to watch my pin come to a stand still and my hinge doesn't fire and the pin then begins to move again, learning to accept that if the hinge fires during that time it is a guaranteed perfect shot and then allowing the shot to progress past that point and having to settle for some amount of movement is a really tough thing. For me almost 99% of the time that movement right after a good 2 second stand still is within the x but sometimes it goes outside the x and that is something that I just choose to not control and sometimes it just happens to fire when the pin is out there.

I think about this a lot and how to deal with it because it is just part of my shooting, I remember back a few years ago when I shot my first 60x rounds and the whole experience just sucked because I was forcing the pin to stay in the x and the mental overload that it took really sucked and I don't ever want to do that again. I think for some of you guys that have bought into floating before you shot your first 60x rounds it makes it harder to accept it. All I can say is that i have shot really good with both methods and the feeling of accomplishment that i get from being a mature shooter that knows his shot and executes it is much more rewarding that strangling the pin and forcing the stupid little thing to behave.

I do think that I am almost to the point where I have earned the right to start asking more from my pin and I have been thinking about it but I have absolutely nobody to talk to about it that is a very high level shooter so it comes right back to finding out for myself.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

PSE Archer said:


> Is it -
> 
> I am not "floating steady" today or is it I am not "holding steady" today.
> 
> Clarification please.


Personally I would say neither. The term "not" is in front of both. You NEVER confess the negative. 

Better said, "I will work on my hold today." Or, "I will do what it takes to hold steadier," or "I will make strides in reducing my sight movement."

Better yet, say nothing at all.........find a way to fix it! That's what I do.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My basic comments are:

I am holding really good today

Dang, I floated off a little and my hinge fired before it came back to the 12 ring.

Crap, I added a little tension to the shot and it pulled my float off the 12 ring.

I didn't have enough pre load in my back tension and I dropped out the bottom.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm with lazurus, I only think about the positive things I want from my shot execution and absolutely do not think about one of the bad things not happening. To me this is being 100% committed to the shot and if you are worried about something not happening it is going to happen. 

I also try and not avoid what just happened and recognize it and then let it go, if you can't let something bad go and dwell on it you are going to do it again.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

> Accepting the fact that you can hold it in the middle is the first step. We’ve all seen it. The times it just goes to the middle and freezes there. I had to ask myself, “If it will do that even one time, why can’t it do it every time?” I had to figure out how it happened in the first place and then try and figure out what I did that made it just stick there. This all started with being determined enough to spend the time just watching the dot and making adjustments on both my bow, and my form to find the best “float” I could get. Along the way, I found that there are many things that affect it that are not equipment related. Some physical, some mental. The more I worked on it, the better it got, to the point where 75% of my shots, the dot would just sit there with no perceivable movement before I started to execute the shot. Now coupling that “hold” with a release that has minimal influence on the “hold” is when I started getting more one hole targets. That is really cool when you can put 12 arrows in one hole, elongated or not.


Can you elaborate a bit on the physical and mental modifications that allow you to hold in the middle? I've bumped into this several times over the last year and when I attempt to repeat an extended still hold on another day I am not able to repeat. By that, I mean a still hold to me is when I come to full draw, the ring is basically stationary for well over three seconds (sometimes up to 9 seconds) and I put my shot on autopilot and it's really easy to score. Or, I just sit there and stare at nothing moving and forget to start my shot as it seems like I need a little sight picture movement to initiate it. Most days it's just about one to two seconds and I haven't started my shot by the time the ring starts to move. The stationary hold almost always occurs after a mechanical change - add or take away one ounce here or there or add or subtract a twist. The last time it took an added ounce and a set of cables that stretched enough to shorten my draw almost 1/4" and re-todded the top cam a bunch. I'd me most interested in hearing your approach to your hold improvements.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Practicing just watching the pin with no intention to shoot would be a good practice I haven't tried.

Seriously good stuff


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Rick, it is a feel thing. I really think that one of my favorite feels is when I am just sitting in the valley not pulling into the wall but the problem is that feel simply doesn't produce my best shooting, floating, or execution. So I am a performance driven shooter not a band wagon shooter, what that means is I listen to things given to me here on archery talk and then I train with them and I look for a feel that produces a level of performance that I am wanting. 

For me back when I started this approach to learning this sport I would go 10 to 20 shots before a really good feeling shot happened and I would reflect on that shot and then try and duplicate that feeling. I failed failed failed failed and then I started to actually do it, once I found the way to start duplicating my shot to a good feel I would perfect that feel and during that time I might happen onto a new feel that felt even better and then i would spend another month perfecting that one and so on.

The first two years of this were very hit and miss where something would feel great for a day or two and even a month but it would soon turn out to be a dead end method or feel. As time went by i kept going back to methods and feels and over the next two years things started to make sense and the fundamental standard things became reality. These things are now just set in stone and not even considered so for change so that I can finalize my feel that I compete with and shoot very well with.

In the beginning like i said I might only feel one good shot out of 20 efforts and now I might shoot 130 arrows and only feel one bad one because I have worked on my execution so that I can produce that same shot over and over and over.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Rick! said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on the physical and mental modifications that allow you to hold in the middle? I've bumped into this several times over the last year and when I attempt to repeat an extended still hold on another day I am not able to repeat. By that, I mean a still hold to me is when I come to full draw, the ring is basically stationary for well over three seconds (sometimes up to 9 seconds) and I put my shot on autopilot and it's really easy to score. Or, I just sit there and stare at nothing moving and forget to start my shot as it seems like I need a little sight picture movement to initiate it. Most days it's just about one to two seconds and I haven't started my shot by the time the ring starts to move. The stationary hold almost always occurs after a mechanical change - add or take away one ounce here or there or add or subtract a twist. The last time it took an added ounce and a set of cables that stretched enough to shorten my draw almost 1/4" and re-todded the top cam a bunch. I'd me most interested in hearing your approach to your hold improvements.


Yes. Give me some time to do a write-up and I'll post it.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

cbrunson,
From your post, it sounds like you've traveled a long and dark road to get where you are with your shooting. I'm still on the darker parts of that road. Thanks for giving me hope that there may be a little light at the end. 

Great post. :thumbs_up

Looking forward to the post on the changes.

Thank you,
Allen


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

wow- great timing with this post OP! I just really started some aiming drills, watching my pin. I have a hard time making the pin out when focusing on the x, so I decided to go against all convention wisdom and focus on the pin. 

My pin now sits alot more still. I went from a 43x 299 average to shooting 53-56x. My float was terrible before, but I tried to trust it. It would float off to the right and bang, hinge would fire. Now that I can see what my pin is doing it stays alot more steady for me, stopping about 50% of the time. My arrows hit where the pin is every time. My float stays inside the x about 90% of the time, and my scores correlate.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I think the term "float" isn't the real issue. The real issue is what people are being told to do with it, or not do with it as the case may be. I know this; I can follow the path of the OP to the letter with the "let it float" mindset. Many people tend to take these type of instructions literally, I know I do. This can lead you down a path where you think "float" can not be improved and therefore should not be worked on. Since Tuesday (thanks to Brunson) I've had an epiphany about this entire subject and have made some changes as a result. As is demonstrated in the video below "float" can be vastly improved with the proper techniques... Which would you rather trust, the Tuesday me or the Friday me? 

http://youtu.be/4Djf7Lm09ts


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

wow- I'm putting my money on Friday!!

What specifically did you do to work on your hold?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My big thing is when I look back at myself 10 years ago and then 5 and then 2 years ago it is amazing how many things I was doing that were simply stupid and totally screwing up everything i was trying to do. I think that is why when you listen to a top shooter talk you believe that he is leaving out stuff but in all reality for whatever reason he has eliminated all the garbage from his shooting and only the simple stuff that allows him to drill the center is left.

The more I train to become a really good shooter I am finding that it is all about getting rid of the garbage so that I can actually hit what I want to.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the quality of your "hold", produces the range of movement that is the "float" you see in the sight picture. whether it s dead still or moving from one side of the white to the other, it is your "float". 
for some reason, wjen people acquire a minimum of movement, they seem to want to rename a term that is universal and has been universally understood, for many years. evidently to those people, "float" means something more like uncontrollable meandering around in the bulls eye and because they don't do that,.... specifically,.... they think their "float" is, or should be called, "something else".


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

You're starting to scare me, cb. I'm finding myself either agreeing or identifying with everything you post. Your OP describes me to a T. This is where I'm at:

"If you focus on aiming, you will fight trying to hold it in the middle with rigid arms and hands. That makes it jump all over the place. Throwing on a ton of weights will slow it down, but as you build strength up to handle the weight, the problem returns. Then you find yourself trying to hurry the shot when it is on, or just simply trying to time it. The bad part about learning this way is that you will actually have some really good scores. They just won’t be consistent. That sends you back to “trust your float” thinking. Again you improve a little, maybe pick up a few more Xs along the way. Then you stall out again. Now it’s time to work on improving your “float”."


The night I shot with your blinder idea was sort of that light bulb moment on aiming. In my 29yrs of shooting, I've never seen such a crystal clear sight picture. That afforded me to really aim at the middle. All these damn years of fuzzy pins/dots/rings and a fuzzy target...

I'd be curious what you've done to work on your aim. I've posted it before, but I've had those moments where the dot just sat there. It sat so still it freaked me out to the point where I'd just admire it through the peep and forget to start executing my shot.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

rick!,
do a search using "shot window timing", there's allot of information about the specific occurrence of that short period of stillness in your sight picture. the "shot window timing drill" is specifically designed to orient your release execution around that "window", of least float range movement.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> I think the term "float" isn't the real issue. The real issue is what people are being told to do with it, or not do with it as the case may be. I know this; I can follow the path of the OP to the letter with the "let it float" mindset. Many people tend to take these type of instructions literally, I know I do. This can lead you down a path where you think "float" can not be improved and therefore should not be worked on. Since Tuesday (thanks to Brunson) I've had an epiphany about this entire subject and have made some changes as a result. As is demonstrated in the video below "float" can be vastly improved with the proper techniques... Which would you rather trust, the Tuesday me or the Friday me?
> 
> http://youtu.be/4Djf7Lm09ts


 the problem, is that no-one ever said, that, "float cannot be improved", or "cannot be worked on". that is simply your interpretation of what you read. what I find ironic, is a person who claims to tale things he reads "literally', comes up with an interpretation of posts that say nothing of the sort.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Ned250 said:


> You're starting to scare me, cb. I'm finding myself either agreeing or identifying with everything you post. Your OP describes me to a T. This is where I'm at:
> 
> "If you focus on aiming, you will fight trying to hold it in the middle with rigid arms and hands. That makes it jump all over the place. Throwing on a ton of weights will slow it down, but as you build strength up to handle the weight, the problem returns. Then you find yourself trying to hurry the shot when it is on, or just simply trying to time it. The bad part about learning this way is that you will actually have some really good scores. They just won’t be consistent. That sends you back to “trust your float” thinking. Again you improve a little, maybe pick up a few more Xs along the way. Then you stall out again. Now it’s time to work on improving your “float”."
> 
> ...


I'll get it written up. I'm at work right now so I'll have to either so small chunks or wait. I think it would be better to wait.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> rick!,
> do a search using "shot window timing", there's allot of information about the specific occurrence of that short period of stillness in your sight picture. the "shot window timing drill" is specifically designed to orient your release execution around that "window", of least float range movement.


Or....... instead of trying to time it at the exact time you "usually" get that moment of stillness, why not learn how to extend that moment of stillness and keep it there until the shot breaks?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> the problem, is that no-one ever said, that, "float cannot be improved", or "cannot be worked on". that is simply your interpretation of what you read. what I find ironic, is a person who claims to tale things he reads "literally', comes up with an interpretation of posts that say nothing of the sort.


I was referring to the perception that many literal thinkers have taken on... And on the contrary statements such as that, if not directly, certainly have been put out there. The simple statement, "Just trust your float" can be taken that way. I've been asking the question for as long as I can remember, "How do you trust something that isn't trustworthy?"... You of all people, based on your float problems and overall results should be paying close attention to those you oppose on this matter.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> I think the term "float" isn't the real issue. The real issue is what people are being told to do with it, or not do with it as the case may be. I know this; I can follow the path of the OP to the letter with the "let it float" mindset. Many people tend to take these type of instructions literally, I know I do. This can lead you down a path where you think "float" can not be improved and therefore should not be worked on. Since Tuesday (thanks to Brunson) I've had an epiphany about this entire subject and have made some changes as a result. As is demonstrated in the video below "float" can be vastly improved with the proper techniques... Which would you rather trust, the Tuesday me or the Friday me?
> 
> http://youtu.be/4Djf7Lm09ts


Good work! Amazing what it does for your confidence when you actually see it and then make it happen. I think you're going to see some more improvement in the coming weeks.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson.....while you are at it, can you help me with my "low hold" this target was a target I have been shooting over the last three days. I was told to let it float and shoot my shot and this is what I end up with. 

Can you help?


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Lazarus said:


> cbrunson.....while you are at it, can you help me with my "low hold" this target was a target I have been shooting over the last three days. I was told to let it float and shoot my shot and this is what I end up with.
> 
> Can you help?
> 
> View attachment 2194923


Turn your target upside down lower it 2 inches and think positive thoughts. You'll be fine.

I'm just gonna hold mine in the middle.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Wow. EPLC your stabilizer showed much less movement.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> cbrunson.....while you are at it, can you help me with my "low hold" this target was a target I have been shooting over the last three days. I was told to let it float and shoot my shot and this is what I end up with.
> 
> Can you help?


No help for you. Go buy a book or something.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> No help for you. Go buy a book or something.


Nobody reads books anymore.

You got any recommendations? :teeth:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

EPLC said:


> I think the term "float" isn't the real issue. The real issue is what people are being told to do with it, or not do with it as the case may be. I know this; I can follow the path of the OP to the letter with the "let it float" mindset. Many people tend to take these type of instructions literally, I know I do. This can lead you down a path where you think "float" can not be improved and therefore should not be worked on. Since Tuesday (thanks to Brunson) I've had an epiphany about this entire subject and have made some changes as a result. As is demonstrated in the video below "float" can be vastly improved with the proper techniques... Which would you rather trust, the Tuesday me or the Friday me?
> 
> http://youtu.be/4Djf7Lm09ts


Day 1 you seemed to settle into the shot, then creep into the valley before finally coming back into the wall. For me that is a very tiring way to shoot.
Day 2 the transition between the draw and the execution was much less tentative. The overall shot timing was shorter.

I think your initial float after arriving at anchor was similar, but you managed to break shot shot in that initial float rather than trying to force it to get better on day 2.

Just what I see.

-Grant


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

also noticed on Tues. you were settling into your aim and then adjusting your grip but in the later video you were not.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Nobody reads books anymore.
> 
> You got any recommendations? :teeth:


I haven't read any archery books. I try to keep my reading limited to magazines with pictures. Then I don't even have to read the articles.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> Day 1 you seemed to settle into the shot, then creep into the valley before finally coming back into the wall. For me that is a very tiring way to shoot.
> Day 2 the transition between the draw and the execution was much less tentative. The overall shot timing was shorter.
> 
> I think your initial float after arriving at anchor was similar, but you managed to break shot shot in that initial float rather than trying to force it to get better on day 2.
> ...


I took this over here -> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2434527&page=15&p=1072685872#post1072685872


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bowman72 said:


> wow- I'm putting my money on Friday!!
> 
> What specifically did you do to work on your hold?


I followed this suggestion:



cbrunson said:


> One of the problems I noticed when learning to relax the bow arm is that you naturally want to drift down at first making you tense up again, trying to raise it back up. That is a problem with relaxing too much on your release arm and not keeping enough pressure against your bow arm, or letting your shoulder collapse.
> 
> If you focus on keeping your shoulder down, start pulling with your release and then start with relaxing your hand. Then relax your arm muscles. If your elbow wants to bend, straighten it just until it stops trying to bend, but don't force it straight. You still need to relax it. Once you feel your whole bow arm relax, you will control the fine movement of the dot with only your pulling force from your release hand.
> 
> After you get this part working correctly, then we can talk about how the different release methods affect the float.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

??? How many posts/replies of "float" throughout Inter/Advan forum? Some this "float," is it a bad habit picked up? I mean, it seems like some get on target and wait or look for a "float" to develop. Shooting pistols and rifles I didn't wait or look for a "float." Trap shooting, there ain't no float. You just plain go for the target, swing through it and poof. Do it right and there's just dust (fine grind, we called it).

"Float." If you have it, is it a constant same direction motion? Can you get in "time" with it? If so, figure out where the best execution gives the best shot placement? Like pin at it's far point left and shot execution gives a dead X or maybe pin at it's highest and shot execution gives a dead X.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

This was shot at Louisville Nationals.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Ned250 said:


> This was shot at Louisville Nationals.


I would say that is one steady group. While there is certainly movement visible it ain't much. It also seems to be pretty consistent from archer to archer. I have that one saved in my favorites and will be taking many looks at that one...


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

i thought there was quite a bit of movement. if you focus on the pin and blurry back ground its not as obvious as if you look at the bow referenced to the video frame.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> This was shot at Louisville Nationals.


Heh, heh. Good find Ned. They're just "letting it float and shooting the shot." (that was sarcasm for those who didn't recognize it.)

At around the 2 minute mark, it looked to me like Richard Potters bow was sitting on a stand it was so still. :thumbs_up The movement that was there appeared to come from the camera person.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

nochance said:


> i thought there was quite a bit of movement. if you focus on the pin and blurry back ground its not as obvious as if you look at the bow referenced to the video frame.


I saw quite a bit of movement, relatively speaking. Seems every single one of them had a left to right waggle more than vertical movement. Which is interesting coming on the heels of Laz's late set thread....

I re-watched it and the bubble tells you a lot as well. Not just the actual side to side movement of the bubble, but you could watch the bubble oscillate as they executed the shot. 

Pretty cool video. Makes me want to do the same for myself and see how it looks. I would've loved to see this video of my dot while I shot at Louisville. ukey:


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Lazarus said:


> Heh, heh. Good find Ned. They're just "letting it float and shooting the shot." (that was sarcasm for those who didn't recognize it.)
> 
> At around the 2 minute mark, it looked to me like Richard Potters bow was sitting on a stand it was so still. :thumbs_up


Yeah he really jumped off the screen at me too. He looked much steadier than cool hand Jesse.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

one of my favorite sayings applies very well to the topic of improving your hold, float, aim, what ever you want to call it. Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right! In fact it applies to most things in archery.....and life!


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ned250 said:


> Yeah he really jumped off the screen at me too. He looked much steadier than cool hand Jesse.


Did you notice with Jesse how right before the shot broke it became dead still.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Put your cursor on their dot or scope housing. Gives a more accurate depiction of the movement, or lack thereof.
Camera is on a tripod.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Ok I'll go through a fairly detailed description of how I started working on improving my hold. It all started after shooting a hunting bow only league we do right before hunting season. I was starting to get a good feel for the shorter speed bow after not shooting it since the previous hunting season. Things were starting to feel good. I pulled up on a 43 yard 3D target and the pin just froze right in the center of the X ring. We count them as 11s. I made a conscious effort to make my release as smooth as possible to not move the pin, and drilled it. That shot felt good. We shoot two arrows at each target, so I drew the next arrow and it did the same thing. It sat there appearing motionless with the pin covering the nock of my first arrow. I focused again on a smooth release while watching the pin not move. At 43 yards with a 6” brace 35” ATA hunting bow I smashed the nock of my first arrow and I knew instantly that in wasn't by trusting some movement and an act of random chance. I watched the pin through the shot process and it didn't move. I was also using a hinge release. 

I was holding very well that day and repeated that good hold several more times. At ranges from 20-35 yards I tore off vanes and busted two more nocks. I had to finish the last two targets with one arrow missing a vane because I only brought six arrows with me. This got me thinking afterwards. How could a common speed bow without the long stabilizers and scope be held that steady for that many shots. There were some bad ones, but I couldn't stop thinking about the good ones. That was the last shoot before hunting season so I was left with those thoughts. I didn't think about it when I shot my deer either. 

Indoor season starts right after the close of general archery season here so it was still fresh in my mind when I pulled the pro comp out and started setting it up for spots again. I made several adjustments trying to figure out where it felt the best, and got it shooting pretty good. I was fairly consistent at 47-53 Xs, but my hold was nothing like I remembered from the day with my hunting bow. It was easy to justify considering the fact that the sight picture is a lot different with a magnified lens than without. I kept telling myself that it was moving the same, I just couldn't see it without the lens. But then I couldn't stop thinking about how solid it was for two consecutive shots at 43 yards and the second shot smashing the first arrow. I just felt like there had to be a way to repeat that hold. That is when I decided to study the dot movement without shooting. I pulled out my safety hinge and started drawing the bow (arrow loaded of course), an trying to hold it in the center as long as I could. I learned more doing this than any other thing I've experimented with in archery. 

For the purpose of broadening the subject, I will explain the steps in instructional format to include multiple issues that I know some other people have experienced. This is of course all my opinion since I don't claim to be a professional or a coach, or a book writer. Take it for what you will. If you shoot as well or better than me using another concept or set of ideas, and disagree with my statements, I will not argue whether one way is better than the other. I do believe there are many successful approaches to this subject, and not one exclusive preferred method, so let's try to keep the arguments to a minimum, thanks. This assumes that you do not have any target panic issues. In fact you may find that you actually do have some minor issues. This will also help you with those. 

First step. 

Take out your favorite backup release and rotate the moon around so it can't fire. If you only have one release do it anyway, because you're likely going to change it anyway, even if you've spent countless hours perfecting your release at the blind bale. You'll see why in a moment. If you use a trigger, plan on parking your thumb behind it and not being temped to push the button. Then hang a clean target face at 20 yards. (That's where we shoot, not 8 or 10) Now you're going to go through all of the motions like you normally would if you were warming up to shoot a practice game. Draw the bow and hold it like you normally would. Pay close attention to what the dot is doing when you try to hold it in the center of the spot. Think about when you would normally fire it. Then let down and count to 15 slowly. Draw again and do the same thing. Consciously watch your dot move and set it up like you are going to execute the shot. Pay close attention to where it was when you know it would have gone off. Let down and count to 15. Repeat this for five or six ends of three arrows each. Take a mental note of any changes in movement as your muscles warm up, or if you find yourself thinking ahead and trying to skip steps. This is very important. Don't skip this step. 

Now, being honest with yourself, because you are the only person this matters to, ask yourself these simple questions:

1.	How was the dot moving? 
2.	Was is fast and jerky?
3.	Was it slow but moving around a lot?
4.	Was it mostly vertical, or mostly horizontal, or both?
5.	Was it circular, or figure eight?
6.	How long did you try to hold it there? 3 seconds? 10seconds?
7.	Did it improve while you held it there, an and what point?
8.	If it improved, how long did it hold at its best “float”?
9.	At what point of the hold did you decide you would execute the shot?

Those are pretty basic and that's good. You want to know where you're coming from before you try to go somewhere new. Now it's time to study changes to your basic holding techniques that you have ingrained into your muscle memory. I'm not talking about basic form as you should have that down by now. I'm talking about fine adjustments to muscle tension and maybe a little body position. This is where it gets a little conflicting with everything you hear and read daily about equipment setup and fine tuning your bow to make you shoot better. Those things are important, but if you're not holding the bow correctly in the first place, you won't see the benefits of a twist or two on the strings. Same with loop length. This can be a sensitive argument for some individuals here which is okay, we are all at different levels for the most part. We take for granted some of the finer details of things we learned a log time ago and now consider remedial. 

Now set up the shot again by going to your normal stance, drawing the bow, and holding as close to the center as you can. Start your release execution. The release is set so it can't fire, so nothing will happen other than you watching how your normally executed release affects the movement of the dot. (Thumb triggers just pull with the same tension you believe you normally would). What happened?

1.	Did it slow down and settle in during the simulated shot process?
2.	Did it get worse?
3.	Did it have a moment where the tension was good, then got worse?
4.	Did it change at all? (More commonly not, with a static release arm)

Do this repeatedly for six more ends of three arrows each. By now the other guys at the range are wondering what the heck you're doing just drawing and letting down. A few have probably already asked. 

What did you see as an overall pattern? Did your hold improve at certain points? You may not know exactly why some were better than others yet, but you are looking now, so the first step is covered.

Second step. 

Little changes. It is likely that up to this point you have traded a half dozen or more releases, moved your bars around, added and removed weights, changed draw length and weight, many, many times trying to find the perfect recipe for shooting Xs. I can say with absolute certainty that my opinion is very simple regarding this. Set it up to be comfortable. That's it. It just needs to feel good. There is no magic combination or formula to get the bow fit perfect for you. At least not if you follow this process of learning how to hold the bow. 

The first part of this step is to get the bow arm relaxed. If you shoot with a bent elbow and have learned to push/pull as you fire the release, or are committed to a high wrist grip, you might as well stop reading this post. It won't help you, unless you decide to abandon your current method. Again, not arguing that method. I've seen that it works well for some very good shooters, it's just not how I do it, and not addressed in this post. Now when you get set up and ready to go again, be consciously aware of what your dot is doing again. It's important to be fresh and rested for the first few attempts at this. You want to be strong enough to hold it longer than normal. 

Draw the bow and hold it in the center like you've been doing. Make sure you have you're good low grip with no induced torque and straighten your arm. Don't worry about drawing it that way, you have no investment in time for the moment. Now starting with your hand, completely relax it. Let the bow just sit there. Don't look at the bubble yet, just watch the dot and let your hand relax. Next let your arm muscles relax. If your elbow tries to bend, straighten it until it stops but don't force it straight. If it still tries to bend, you are not pulling hard enough with your release hand. Make sure your shoulder is down and pull as hard as necessary to get the arm to stay locked straight with absolutely no tension in the bow arm muscles. If you have a normal arm, it works. It will lock straight and you can relax your bow arm completely. What happened to the movement of the dot? Maybe nothing yet because it took so long to get it to relax this time and your shoulder started burning so you let down. That's okay. Rest for a good 20 seconds or more and try it again. This time it happens faster and you can watch the dot a little closer. If you're like me, your dot just went from floating around inside the nine ring, to almost dead still wherever it stopped when I became completely relaxed with my bow arm. This is looking through a 4X lens. The light just clicked on. It can be done, but for how long? And more importantly, it's not in the center, how do I move it and keep the same hold? This is where it gets more personal so I will discuss the effects of different release methods that I know and how they affect it. The general concept should be broad enough to apply to others I think. 

Keep practicing holding and relaxing the bow arm for a few more ends and then start introducing your shot execution with the release still unable to fire. Don't worry about whether it's perfectly in the middle when you start to execute, just make sure it is sitting calm and still the way you just got it to sit with a totally relaxed bow arm. You may still see some movement, but it should be very minimal. If not, something is very off with your basic form or bow set up. Remember this is assuming that you are already at the 40-50x level in your shooting. Those basic fundamentals should be covered. 

Study the changes in your dot movement with your release execution while maintaining a perfectly relaxed bow arm now. If you're like me, you will see it move a lot at first. When it does, your bow arm and hand will want to tense up to control the movement. That is a natural reaction that you have to mentally conquer to move forward from this point. You have to focus on keeping the arm relaxed through the execution process. It can be very difficult. Keeping the release unable to fire will at least eliminate the shot anticipation from the equation while you are training your mind to see what you want for a sight picture, and learning the amount of pull required to keep your bow arm relaxed. You need to work on this for a while. Not just a few minutes and then go fling some arrows. You are trying to retrain your body and mind. It doesn't happen in 15 minutes. That doesn't mean you can't introduce the shot into the process, but depending on your issues with shot anticipation, you may struggle to stay focused on what you are trying to achieve. I know I did. The next step is learning to control the movement of the dot during the release execution. I will have to add the next step later because it's Saturday and I'm going outside to play.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Great post! I've been working the latter portion of this since Wednesday and have seen much improvement in my hold. I'm experiencing some difficulty with shoulder burn and not messing up the relaxed bow arm with execution which is to be expected. That said, even in just a few short days I see the potential. I think I'll have to take a step back with this with my spare release set to not fire and take it slow. This is really working for me though. Thanks again!


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Awesome stuff, cb. I've got my pencil re sharpened - ready for the next installment.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

definitely some good stuff to try.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

Padgett said:


> One of the things that I have done the last year is instead of forcing my pin because I made a decision not to do that was to ask it to shrink.


I promised myself that I would recognize genius when I saw/heard it.

ASK MYSELF TO SHRINK MY FLOAT !!!

Why in the heck couldn't have thought of it. Lanny Basham-ism at it's best.

Can't wait to hit the range tomorrow AM.

Thanks Padgett


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Great post cbrunson! :thumbs_up

I'm looking forward to the next installment.

Allen


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Third step.

It is very important that you spent enough time pulling with varied tension, and watching the dot before starting to introduce the shot into the process. All of the questions from before should be answered. You should also have checked to see where the bubble is on your level. Not adjusted for it, just checked it. 

Now you can spend some time moving weight around. If your movement (float) was mostly vertical, add some weight to the front bar, until you can hold the bow with the same relaxed bow arm, pulling like you would to shoot, and most (not all) of the vertical movement is gone. Then check your bubble again. Move your side/ back bar in or out until the bubble sits level at full draw and stays there when you pull harder. You should not be trying to twist, or hold the bow level at the grip. Your hand needs to be completely relaxed. This may take a combination of added weight, and moving the bar. I like to run a lot of back weight to keep my bow dead level at the shot, so I will shoot a few to make sure it is close. By the time this set up is done, I get very little jump forward and no tipping forward or back, after the shot. 

If you still have horizontal movement, or the dot is still jumpy, now is the time to start twisting, or untwisting rather. Since you’ve gotten past all of the “how’s my form” threads, you know now that your draw length is always an inch too long. Haha. Now you can start going the other way and find the balance point, where your perfect spot is. Start slow, taking out a twist at a time until the jumpiness is almost gone, but not completely. Stop there. Any further and then you will start having problems with your shoulder wanting to collapse, or you will start creeping off the stops. After that you need to check/ adjust cam timing. Now with just a little jumpiness, start adding mass weight to the riser. I add mine to the hole right below my grip on the back of the riser. It has very minimal effect on the balance I’ve already established. It doesn’t take much and the dot slows down and I can hold it almost perfectly still in the center now. Don’t add more than the minimum it takes to stop the movement.

Now you’re ready to test it out. Go through the same routine to make sure everything still sits correctly, and feels right with your bow arm completely relaxed. Pull through the shot without the release firing a few times to get comfortable watching the dot again. Now on to step four, where you adjust your release.

Fourth step.

Get your favorite release back out and rotate the moon around to slightly colder than you had it before, or a lot colder if you had it set really hot. Now depending on how you fire the release, you will go through your motions during this step, but I will go through it with my method.

Draw the bow and go through all of the motions required to settle in with your relaxed bow arm. Make sure you are comfortable holding it in the middle again. If you’re not, and it is moving more than before, you are struggling with some anticipation issues. Those can be fixed at this step, but you’re going to have to take it slow, and keep your release really cold for a while until you can handle it. You may also have a recurring low hold issue at this point. If you do, go back to the second step, and practice until you can hold it in the center through a simulated shot execution for a while.

Now set up for your first end of three arrows. Don’t expect to score, or even shoot Xs yet. Just get set up, making sure you follow all of the steps to put the dot in the center with a fully relaxed bow arm, and start pulling (or relaxing the index). Watch the dot. I know, everyone says to stare at the spot, but I can’t see the X behind my 1/8” dot. I can see the rings around it, so keep my focus in the center. It is a much better sight picture for me. Start pulling or rotating to execute the shot and when it reaches that point where you know the picture is the best, stop. Hold it there as long as you can and then let down. Adjust your release in small increments, repeatedly until it fires right in that “best” picture window. I want mine to go on the back end of it, so there is less chance of it firing early, and I know it is a strong shot. You may want it in the middle or closer to the front end to help out with fatigue later into the process, but for now, keep it cold and slow. Take longer rests between shots. I will count to fifteen between shots, and when I start getting tired, I might extend it to twenty. 

The important thing is making sure that everything is exactly right every time. If you don’t focus on softening up the bow arm, or not watching the dot and seeing exactly what it’s doing, you will quickly fall back into the same form you had before and trying to just “feel” the shot. You won’t notice yourself tensing up again, and you won’t notice when you need to make some minor adjustments until it’s too late and you have to guess at what you needed to do. It is not uncommon for me to add or remove mass weight from my bow during a game, even in competition. The only thing affected by it with the way my bow is set up, is the motion of the dot. If it’s too heavy, it wants to sag. Too light, it moves too much. With it set up the way I described, it will sit almost perfectly still 75% of the time. The other 25%, I should have let down. More often than not, my misses are from not being patient and letting everything settle in before executing the shot, or not paying full attention to the process.

There are probably several deviations from this set up that work great, and several that are completely different. I’ll acknowledge other methods as being successful alternatives to the way I do it. The only thing I will say, is for those who believe that there is no possible way to get zero perceived dot or pin movement, that if you put in the time and effort to get it there, you will see that you absolutely can. There is no reason to keep telling people to stop trying to aim and just “trust your float”, unless you are going to tell them how to get their “float” inside the ten ring throughout the release execution.

As always...... Just my opinion.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)




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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Thank you!


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Awesome.


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow. Thanks for this. I made a small discovery last week and it was just one small piece of what you just wrote up. It was a huge breakthrough for me, and this post reinforces what I found.............and then adds about 5 more big steps that will help things for me immensely.

Your arrows will hit where you dot is, period.


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## PUGIDOGS (Mar 17, 2005)

Very nice, Thank you! Pugi


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks for the post. This information has the potential to help everyone improve.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

One thing you shoud keep in mind is that no matter what method you choose to use to set up your shot, you really should work out the finer details of it before you ever think you can just let it happen on it's own. I think you often get a false sense of accomplishment in the earlier stages of progress, when you are just relaxed and shooting without thinking about it. I think that's where most people get the idea that it should just be automatic rather than focusing on every shot. There is nothing wrong with that concept, but I think you need the in-depth, fine tuning experience and a lot of time spent focusing on maintaining the correct shot process before you could ever expect to be successful with it. I believe most people try to apply that concept much too early in their learning process.

I am in the focus hard stage of learning and don't see myself trying to let go of the shot focus anytime soon. Every time I try to, I get lazy with something and miss. At this point, I don't see a good reason to ever stop focusing on holding and shot execution.

....and thanks for the positive comments.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> One thing you shoud keep in mind is that no matter what method you choose to use to set up your shot, you really should work out the finer details of it before you ever think you can just let it happen on it's own. I think you often get a false sense of accomplishment in the earlier stages of progress, when you are just relaxed and shooting without thinking about it. I think that's where most people get the idea that it should just be automatic rather than focusing on every shot. There is nothing wrong with that concept, but I think you need the in-depth, fine tuning experience and a lot of time spent focusing on maintaining the correct shot process before you could ever expect to be successful with it. I believe most people try to apply that concept much too early in their learning process.


Brilliant! :cheers:

In addition, it seems there's a "universally accepted" rule that the best shooters just stand there and pound all day long when practicing and never think about anything. I think the popular buzzword is, they're doing it; "subconsciously." In reality, I don't believe this is the case. I believe that the very best are constantly trying to improve, therefore, they're not just standing there in practice flogging the bale. I believe they are constantly thinking about (working on, which requires thought) something, trying to get better.

My philosophy is; if you aren't improving someone else is. You don't improve by seeing just how thoughtless you can shoot. (In my opinion.) 

.02


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cbrunson, I really think you are on the right path as a indoor shooter. You are saying many good things in your posts and you are going to competitions and have yourself on the line with other shooters on a regular basis which to me as a competitive indoor guy you must do. 

I also agree that when I am shooting really good there is nothing worse than letting my mind wander for a moment and a shot fires and I wasn't paying attention and i miss a x for no freaking reason other than lack of focus. I also know the problems associated with the wrong kind of focus and the damage it can do to my shooting so putting your self on the line and finding that balance of letting yourself execute and still have a good amount of focus on the task at hand is the key.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am at step one. My pin is going in a triagular shape within the 8 and changes directions about 3 times a second. If I totally relax my arm the pin drops and I decided to see how far it would drop. The pin dropped and continued to drop until I stopped the shot.

I was hoping that the pin would sit still at some point but it didn't happen. So I need to keep trying and testing this method.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

jim p said:


> I am at step one. My pin is going in a triagular shape within the 8 and changes directions about 3 times a second. If I totally relax my arm the pin drops and I decided to see how far it would drop. The pin dropped and continued to drop until I stopped the shot.
> 
> I was hoping that the pin would sit still at some point but it didn't happen. So I need to keep trying and testing this method.


Let’s start with figuring out why your float is so big to begin with. 

How much weight do you have on your stabilizers? 

What is your draw weight and length?

How long have you been shooting?

What is your average score on a 5-spot target?

Are you keeping your shoulder down and pulling with your release before you try to relax your bow arm?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

32" with 5 oz on front. 14" 16 oz on rear.
draw weigh 45 lb. 28" draw length.
Been shooting for 45 years.

I shoot in the 280's on 3 spot.

I think that I was relaxing the bow arm before I started the shot process.


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## Mennes (Sep 4, 2014)

Tagged


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The anticipation factor.

Usually not long after settling in and shooting a bunch of really good shots, with a few misses you write off just for the sake of it, you start having noticeably more movement, or it just won’t seem to settle down like it was before. It could also be the dreaded low hold coming back. I’ve gone through this many times. The first instinct is to mess with weights or draw length again, because those seem to have instant results. (although temporary)

One of the things we don’t usually consider is our mental approach to the shot. You have had it beat into your head that you need to be able to shoot subconsciously. Maybe you are now scoring in leagues, scoring just to measure progress, or shooting at a local tournament and your ability to focus on the shot is diminished by the running total in your head. There may be those select individuals that can shoot the whole game without knowing their score, but when you are going into the seventh end and you know you haven’t missed an X yet, the possibility of a perfect game starts to enter your mind. That’s how it works for me. I can let down and wait while I force the thoughts out of my mind, but when I draw back again my focus goes into hypersensitive mode. My ability to relax on the shot is gone and I have to focus very hard on getting the release to go off smoothly. This is one of the times I will miss.

It is so easy to pick up bad habits at this point. A few successful drive by shots compound the problem as well. What happens is your acceptable sight picture has gone and you start timing shots again. Instead of doing the right things to make the dot hold correctly, you start hurrying the shot because it won’t hold very long anymore. This is wrong. It will hold just like it did before, you are just not letting it. Not being patient. Not following the steps to get it there.

This is when I like to go back to the first two steps I listed. Except now I call them let down drills. Many people will tell you the purpose for using let down drills, is to gain confidence in getting out of the shot when it’s bad. To me we are past that now, or should be anyway. I use the drill to not only look at my sight picture without the pressure of the shot, but to retrain my brain to “see” the correct sight picture. I would say that some form of shot anticipation (TP) stays with us forever if we don’t learn how to keep it in check. It will try to come out in tense situations like competition. The best way I’ve found to beat it is to force myself to watch the dot sit there without being able to fire it, or at least being committed to not shooting the shot. I watch it for as long as I can and then let down. I’ll do it as many times as necessary until I can execute the shot comfortably without getting that tense feeling. It is especially useful right before competition starts. I’m starting to get control of this.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am going to continue practicing step one. I hope to see my pin just stop. I don't care where it stops I just want it to stop.

My float today was all the way out into the 8 when I had my cold release and with no intention to fire. I forced the cold release to fire by completely closing my ring finger in tight to my palm.

I then went to my normal release and with the intention to shoot my float shrank to being within the 9. It was like I was more focused.

I really like this training exercise. It helps with more than just holding still.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The more important the shot the harder it is to make. The last round shoot off at vegas shows this to be true with the best shooters. Those guys had been shooting perfect ends until the last end then one shot a 27 and the other shot a 28 out of 30.


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## PUGIDOGS (Mar 17, 2005)

cbrunson,

As always trying to improve my shot, I have given a honest commitment the last 10 days to what you have said here. Many of my age group were taught that we needed to rip the limbs off the dang thing, I did have quite a bit of tension in my bow arm. 

My findings so far are, It feels so nice to be able to fully relax all parts of my body. My "float" is much more static, with smaller movements and at times dead still. I had to speed up my hinge a little to get the shot away without ripping the limbs off the bow and maintaining a relaxed bow arm.

I have run into a couple small problems, that I believe can be corrected with more time to adjust to the new shooting style. I have always had a small problem with a little dip out the bottom on occasion, with the relaxed bow arm technic this dip is now a bigger dip than before. I still need to do some more evaluation, but I believe it is to over relaxing the bow arm and inconsistent back tension preload. The other problem is at times my bow arm will start to go back to what it has done for years and tense up and I have to actually think about my shot form in order for it to relax. Again I think this just needs more time for the new muscle memory to take effect, I just don't like to have to think about anything during the shot.

So far my scores are a bit lower but are climbing, I hope in time with this change to surpass previous marks. Pugi


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I always think of the low dip as either a shoulder collapsing issue or relaxing the release arm issue.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Dang this is a great thread. Cant wait to read all of it. I have found myself anticipating my shot and forcing the shot off. I can relate to the problems discussed and now i cant wait to work on this stuff. This is what i have been looking for!


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## yeroc (Jan 11, 2007)

tagged


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Tagged


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Tagged, subscribed, copied, pasted and printed. This is great!


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

On the dropping out the bottom issue. Again prefaced with this is my experience and works for me. I am set up so that reaching full draw the bow is slightly above the target . My students were taught to do the same they all started complaining about dropping out the bottom when they tried to move the point of aim. It was then that I discovered they were moving their front arm to aim. I quickly called them together and explained this adjustment in aim is done by gently tilting the t that is your upper body at the waist with strong core muscles. Boom no more dropping out and the pin stabled out for them as they were doing the other things correctly. For their level.


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