# Semi-Pro Disqualified at ASA in Texas for Cheating



## cuttingedge (Feb 19, 2005)

Cheaters suck! It's like the local shoots around here... You can't beat a pencil!

I'm sure he'll receive ample punishment even if he is not banned.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tttt


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

Second Thread on the matter:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1726606

I agree both agencies should respond to this, (though I doubt IBO has any ground to do as such). 
I'm not doubting your resource, however we should be seeing official word/report before considering this guys career down the gutter.


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## 13bonatter69 (Dec 23, 2007)

Basicly if you aint cheating, you aint trying hard enough. Nothing worth having is given to you, you gotta take it. I like cheating, it shows initiative!!! JUST JOKES...:wink:


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

They were of poor quality to shoot 5 down on day one imo.


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

Pretty sad turn of events =/


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

When your shooting with a range finder ya still gotta hit the target. If he was shooting for 14's , 5 down isnt to far fetched.


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

pretty dang sad!!!


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## rick prather (Aug 23, 2007)

cuttingedge said:


> Cheaters suck! It's like the local shoots around here... You can't beat a pencil!
> 
> I'm sure he'll receive ample punishment even if he is not banned.


ample means enough. there is not enough punishment for this!!!!!!!!


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

the binos were zeiss rangefinding binoculars. The button to activate the rangefinder was covered in camo and the zeiss emblem was covered with an alpen sticker. I can't wait to see this coward if he has the guts to attend the 3rd leg of the ibo southern triple crown n Georgia. I will heckle him all weekend.


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

alot of guys got cheated out of higher places and money, who knows for how long!!!


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

didnt he win the last ibo event? hmmm


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

Yea and the LA asa by a large margin.


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

wondering where he hails from???


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## storyteller_usa (Mar 22, 2003)

ASA Needs to BAN him from all shoots, if this is True..


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## VAHUNTER01 (Dec 6, 2010)

I feel bad for the honest guy that has been finishing 2nd behind this tool.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

his past winnings should be taken also...:wink:


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

If this turns out to be true I think the ASA and the IBO should throw the book at him. He should be banned for life from ever shooting an IBO or ASA sanctioned event. 











This has me thinking now after reading it again!!! Key words>>Turns out to be true is the big question!!! Sounds like some one is second guessing their post..


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

storyteller_usa said:


> ASA Needs to BAN him from all shoots, if this is True..


Agree 100% Steve. No excuse in the book for this type of cheating.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

MOBOW#1 said:


> If this turns out to be true I think the ASA and the IBO should throw the book at him. He should be banned for life from ever shooting an IBO or ASA sanctioned event.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No doubt about this one. 
DB


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2006)

2nd leg stc:
Michael Vincent 424...$237.50
Lucas Schirf 399...$158.33
Mike Cogar 396...$79.70


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Who's to say it's true? Who's to say it's happened at X number of events? Never met the guy, but wouldn't be scared to shoot next to him if I can use my range finder!


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

cinchup1973 said:


> When your shooting with a range finder ya still gotta hit the target. If he was shooting for 14's , 5 down isnt to far fetched.


You're right. Maybe he still had 3 targets left to shoot when he was escorted. :wink:


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

I wouldn't ban him from shooting, just ban him from using any optics.....


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## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

Wow...sad. He is gonna hate
himself when he realizes how bad he just dumped on the sport...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## osuhunter2011 (Feb 13, 2009)

Agreed... Ban him from both organizations. Un-Believable!


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## AdvanTimberLou (Aug 8, 2005)

Pretty sad deal to cheat, I shoot for myself, trying to beat my last score. I know lots of others are beating me honestly and someday I plan to beat them honestly! 

Not sure who sponsors him but this can't be good for them either.


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

This is sad. Don't know what to say. Hate to see people cheated out of something when they worked hard and the other person cheats.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

MOBOW#1 said:


> wondering where he hails from???


He's from north west Mississippi. I forgot the name of the town. The Mississippi state championship was going to be at his range. I bet that changes.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

wow


MOBOW#1 said:


> If this turns out to be true I think the ASA and the IBO should throw the book at him. He should be banned for life from ever shooting an IBO or ASA sanctioned event.
> 
> It is true MOBOW. Heard it from a reputable pro who was there. Just think, if this crap goes on in the pro class how much pencil whipping goes on in the amateur classes. Especially the ibo with the way they run their shoots. Just show up with your buddies and mark down what you want on the scorecards. Ridiculous!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree with all the banning comments,but seriously,if this is all true the worst punishment ever for him would be to show up at another pro-am and have to take all the talk,heckling ,embaressment,and probably a few behind the practice range butt whoopings from the guys that are gonna want to trade their lost winnings for topnots on his noggin.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Guys,

I'm going to say this once and I'm not going to argue over it.

Michael Vincent spent 20-30 minutes in my hotel room last night. It was the first time I'd met Michael but I'm normally a pretty good judge of character. Now I don't know how a man can go about making this mistake but based on my time around him at the hotel, my friend's experience with him (shooting in his group), what I've been told by two people who witnessed the entire exchange and Michael's composure afterwards (including that he shot 10 up after his binocs were taken from him); I believe that you people with the pitch forks and torches need to slow down. It isn't much but it would seem to make me more qualified to judge in this situation than any of you keyboard jockeys.

There are two sides to this story and you need to give him a chance to defend himself before you crucify him. This is America and its still innocent until proven guilty. You guys as the judge, jury and executioner forgot to hear the case..........so until then, shut up and listen.

For the moment this entire thread is slander or libel (I'd have to check my legal definitions) and IMO this thread should be deleted.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

How the hell did he shoot 10 up when he shot a 5 on the next target he shot and only had 4 targets left? I KNOW. I WAS THERE. Plus, HE ADMITED it to the range official!


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

Just a question here. Was the rangefinder working? Have batteries in it?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

buttspanker said:


> How the hell did he shoot 10 up when he shot a 5 on the next target he shot and only had 4 targets left? I KNOW. I WAS THERE. Plus, HE ADMITED it to the range official!


Sorry a 14 and 2) 12's in the last 4 arrows. He did shoot the five.

I haven't heard of any admitting" going on. I'm told he was humble if not neive and well composed.....that he was interested in continuing if only to provide assistance to his group of shooters. Of that group, I'm also told that none of them suspected (or suspect still) that he was cheating.


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## Boomfer (Nov 2, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> For the moment this entire thread is slander or libel (I'd have to check my legal definitions) and IMO this thread should be deleted.


I would say you definitely need to check your definitions because you don't know what you are talking about in a legal sense.

The guy got busted, plain and simple. The evidence speaks for itself.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm going to say this once and I'm not going to argue over it.
> 
> ...


 Ill stick by everthing said from Oklahoma archers that were there and were witness. This should not be deleted. 
It dissapoints me when someone stands up for someone who blantly cheated. Seen it time and time again in archery. 
Even to the point where the guy who turned the cheater is the bad guy. What a shame.
Maybe you can suggest he sue ASA for doing the right thing. 
DB


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

If he's a member here I would love to hear his side of the story!


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

If he covered up the identifying buttons and labels on the binos, he knew what he was doing. No excuse period.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tack09 said:


> If he covered up the identifying buttons and labels on the binos, he knew what he was doing. No excuse period.


Bingo!
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Ill stick by everthing said from Oklahoma archers that were there and were witness. This should not be deleted.
> It dissapoints me when someone stands up for someone who blantly cheated. Seen it time and time again in archery.
> Even to the point where the guy who turned the cheater is the bad guy. What a shame.
> DB


It disappoints me when people who don't know what they are talking about get out the pitch forks. Mob mentality, internet tough guys, blablablabla thats what really disappoints me.

Like I said initially, I can't create a situation in my mind where this can be a "mistake" but that doesnt make me ready to hang him. I own a set of $2500 Leica binocs with range finders built in- it isn't the kind of thing you grab by mistake. The funny thing is, they aren't accurate enough for the 12 game so I use the $400 Leupold on my hip and sanity check it with the Leica in K45.

_Seek first to understand, then to be understood._- would sum up my stance.

Also as I said before, I just met the guy 24 hours ago so I have no interest in sticking my neck out for him specifically except the mindless AT members who cannot think for themselves and jump on board with any motive that seems popular at the moment. In this case, its at the expense of a man whom to my knowledge has not been proven guilty. If he really did this, he has explaining to do at a higher level than me, you, or ASA because some of our conversations last night were on moral grounds (God, family). It would be truly disappointing for me to learn because he seemed like a good guy and there is no doubt he can shoot the bow.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> It disappoints me when people who don't know what they are talking about get out the pitch forks. Mob mentality, internet tough guys, blablablabla thats what really disappoints me.
> 
> Like I said initially, I can't create a situation in my mind where this can be a "mistake" but that doesnt make me ready to hang him. I own a set of $2500 Leica binocs with range finders built in- it isn't the kind of thing you grab by mistake. The funny thing is, they aren't accurate enough for the 12 game so I use the $400 Leupold on my hip and sanity check it with the Leica in K45.
> 
> ...


 I agree he can shoot, that what sad! Can he outshoot the pros. I highly doubt it but he sure embarrassed them all in the IBO shoot. 

Chris Hacker, Jack Wallace and others at the IBO dont have bad days! Seems to all make sense now. I dont hide my binos and dont cover them with a towel. I dont put stickers on them as well. So you think archers shouldnt have an opionion when someone gets caught cheating. No mob mentality. Just such a sad fact it is when some do this. This is sad for the sport and why so many always say they 3ders cheat on so many threads. Then me and others have to come defend those who work hard at learning to judge targets. 
DB


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## storyteller_usa (Mar 22, 2003)

I know When I fished Bass Tournaments ( I had to take a Polygraph test). If I passed everything is ok.. But if you failed.. Questions come up.
Honest people passed..
Sorry to hear this but, if so just like when I fished tournaments ( if money was as stake) if someone was found cheating to gain money this is a felony. 
I remember a guy that Weighted a fish to win a tournament at Lake of the Pines here in Texas. That was convicted of adding weights to the fish to win.
Do some reasearch on this.. 
HE was sent to Prison.. 
Just my 2 cents...

A cheater is always a cheater..


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## Greene728 (Feb 8, 2012)

Intersting story to say the least. His side should be interesting too.


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jay-J said:


> If he's a member here I would love to hear his side of the story!


Vintech ?


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

storyteller_usa said:


> I know When I fished Bass Tournaments ( I had to take a Polygraph test). If I passed everything is ok.. But if you failed.. Questions come up.
> Honest people passed..
> Sorry to hear this but, if so just like when I fished tournaments ( if money was as stake) if someone was found cheating to gain money this is a felony.
> I remember a guy that Weighted a fish to win a tournament at Lake of the Pines here in Texas. That was convicted of adding weights to the fish to win.
> ...


Agreed. How did you and Laura end up?


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## DavidParenteau (Sep 23, 2011)

storyteller_usa said:


> ASA Needs to BAN him from all shoots, if this is True..


They need to seriuosly adress this issue, this cannot be aloud to happen for the integrity of the sport


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

this is interesting stuff. i will wait to see the facts of this case. there are potentially 2 crimes here. 1 is obvious, the cheating issue. the second is the cheap payout from the I.B.O.


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## Edsel (Oct 1, 2011)

VAHUNTER01 said:


> I feel bad for the honest guy that has been finishing 2nd behind this tool.


Who's to say the guy who trailed 2nd wasn't cheating as well!

There's just too much doubt about the integrity of the game now.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm going to say this once and I'm not going to argue over it.
> 
> ...


 OK you said it once, thats enough, you can go now.
Ill start by saying that this is the first I have heard about this, so I don't know if any of this is true, because I wasn't there. But here's my take on this.
If you are in possession of any type of range finding device on an ASA course that is not designated as known yardage, you are cheating. It doesn't even matter if you use it, you are cheating by just having them with you. He obviously knew what they were. And I'm sure he knew they are not allowed. On top of that... if it's true he tried to disguise them. In my book thats a deliberate cheater. And I don't care if you like my opinion, I REALLY DON"T. 
If you believe, after a 20-30 minute talk that he is a good guy, I can only make 3 possible conclusions from that. 1) Maybe he is a nice guy and this is all a misunderstanding. But with the information that has been provided from both points of view it seems he knew what they were and he knew they were not allowed, so this is most likely not a mistake. 2) if this is true then he may be a better lier than he is a cheater. Or 3) Those that believe him may be,...... how should I say this? "Easily Misled"

All that being said I would welcome hearing his side of the story.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

miko0618 said:


> this is interesting stuff. i will wait to see the facts of this case. there are potentially 2 crimes here. 1 is obvious, the cheating issue. the second is the cheap payout from the I.B.O.


 Absolutely!!!!!!!


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## azflyman (Mar 19, 2012)

Was there a report of the rangefinder actually working? Just a thought

az


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

azflyman said:


> Was there a report of the rangefinder actually working? Just a thought
> 
> az


Was wondering the same thing myself. But actually it does not matter. That is not a known class and therefore, they are illegal


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

asa1485 said:


> Was wondering the same thing myself. But actually it does not matter. That is not a known class and therefore, they are illegal



Thats right and anyone shooting in the semi-pro class knows that.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3-D Junkie said:


> Thats right and anyone shooting in the semi-pro class knows that.


And yes, I am told that they were functioning.




Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

While he needs to be DQed, that goes without mention. I don't think he should be banned for life. I think he should forfeit ALL awards/prizes for the YEAR that he had "won" and be banned for at least 1-2 years. After that, he's served his time (unless he would actually go to jail for it) his sponsors will have dumped him, and he is back to starting on the ground floor.

He cheated, punish him. But let him learn a lesson and if he has the balls to come back and swallow his pride, let him start the journey all over...maybe he takes the right path next time.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm going to say this once and I'm not going to argue over it.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but He was using functioning rangefinding binoculars, that he had disguised and covered up the buttons, he walked the range and wrote down yardage, and put them in his chair and covered them up at every target, after using them... He's either guilty, stupid, or both...


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

This is the reason i dont shoot for money in these type of shoots anymore. Its too easy for the hack who set up the range to beat you because he knows all the distances. Its too easy for the guy in the bowhunter division to slip his 5 pin slider sight. Its to easy for guys to use there binos to range targets by focusing them ect. Its to easy for a guy to pace the distances as he walks back to the line ect ect. 

Ill stick to the marked distances where everything is even.


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## robbbinhoodx (Feb 25, 2010)

it's pretty sad a guy has to cheat, to try and win a couple hundred bucks, when something like this will affect him for the rest of his competetive shooting days...... which are probably numbered! i say let him show up and get an earful the rest of the year, that would be more punishment.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

He's a cheat! Caught red handed! I personally saw the fake alpens . A lot of time was invested to meticulously hide the fact that they were range finders . The range official told me when the binos where checked they flashed 37 yd on the target that MV was on when questioned. I'm shocked. I shot with the cheater in LA and he was super nice. Part of the disguise! Same binos , , same routine. Put them in chair, coverd with towel etc. 
I had no idea. He's a cheater, lieir and thief. Should be prosecuted, and banned for 5 yrs


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## shotzie43 (May 7, 2004)

I have to say, I was blown away when I heard this. I shot with him in Florida, and like Tmorelli said, he was one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. It was my first outdoor shoot in semi pro and I struggled badly with yardage and posted a pretty lousy score hitting high and low all weekend from bad numbers. He also had Alpen's there too...or so I thought from the emblems. I did think it was really weird that he tucked them away each shot and made sure he covered them up with a towel. I can honestly say, I was so frustrated with my own performance that I didn't pay attention enough to pick up on whether or not they were the ones that he was caught with...but his yardage was on the money. Every target. It wasn't the hardest shoot I've been at by any means, but it was challenging. You would think that even the pros are off at least a little off on yardage at some point at least a yard or two. . But he wasn't. For shooting 284 fps, he had perfect height the whole way through the course. I don't like to get involved in these debates, but this definitely got my wheels turning and thinking about the time I spent with him at the shoot.

The bottom line is, if you are competing at this level and have the ability to win, you wouldn't compromise your reputation by even putting yourself in this situation by having rangefinding binos. If he had them and had them disguised, there is no question that he was using them. I do feel bad for my friend luke who took second at the shoot and lost the lead he had over Vincent after the first leg. Its a bummer for the honest guy who practices hard to try and get to the top. He went from a couple point lead to being 20 points behind for the overall crown.

There is no question the guy can shoot. I saw it first hand..but everyone knows how crucial yardage is in 3D. I don't care about punishment really. It will be interesting to see what happens and how he does the rest of the season tho. Good luck to everyone this year..looking forward to the rest of the season!


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Seems it wasn't that long ago that a very well known pro was ranging targets using the different size gaps in his cams, which brought about a change in the rules, yet he still shoots..


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

J Whittington said:


> He's a cheat! Caught red handed! I personally saw the fake alpens . A lot of time was invested to meticulously hide the fact that they were range finders . The range official told me when the binos where checked they flashed 37 yd on the target that MV was on when questioned. I'm shocked. I shot with the cheater in LA and he was super nice. Part of the disguise! Same binos , , same routine. Put them in chair, coverd with towel etc.
> I had no idea. He's a cheater, lieir and thief. Should be prosecuted, and banned for 5 yrs


It doesn't get much more clear than that. 

The sad part about this is someone actually cheats for $237? I realize there is more at stake if you are looking to get sponsored and move into the pro division but come one......Obviously the guy has the ability to make shots but was not willing to do what it takes to get to the top of the game. :thumbs_do


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> He's a cheat! Caught red handed! I personally saw the fake alpens . A lot of time was invested to meticulously hide the fact that they were range finders . The range official told me when the binos where checked they flashed 37 yd on the target that MV was on when questioned. I'm shocked. I shot with the cheater in LA and he was super nice. Part of the disguise! Same binos , , same routine. Put them in chair, coverd with towel etc.
> I had no idea. He's a cheater, lieir and thief. Should be prosecuted, and banned for 5 yrs


Very well said. Many can talk about how nice he is but yet he made this choice. I heard from others in semi that saw the binos and there was no doubt from the other semi pros he was caught red handed, Im sure most are wondering why they didnt realize it sooner. I do believe many archers will look back and in the minds have thoughts and wonder why they didnt catch it sooner. Any time someone shooting this good other archers should be well aware and police the sport. I applaud the archer who reported it finally. He the one everyone should be giving the pat on the back. I feel sorry for those who didnt win and finished 2nd and 3rd rightfully should have been a little higher or won.
DB


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Keep em coming guys.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Very well said. Many can talk about how nice he is but yet he made this choice. I heard from others in semi that saw the binos and there was no doubt from the other semi pros he was caught red handed, Im sure most are wondering why they didnt realize it sooner. I do believe many archers will look back and in the minds have thoughts and wonder why they didnt catch it sooner. Any time someone shooting this good other archers should be well aware and police the sport. I applaud the archer who reported it finally. He the one everyone should be giving the pat on the back. I feel sorry for those who didnt win and finished 2nd and 3rd rightfully should have been a little higher or won.
> DB


Agreed.

I don't have time to go to many shoots anymore because I have 2 young children but I shoot at my local club nearly every week. I have been pencil whipped there before and I know it but I never cared. I am not there trying to win so to speak, I am simply trying to get better. If some guy who is a better shooter beats me by 20 points but I shoot the best I ever had I am happy. I don't care if he pencil whipped me or not. He can have the $50 he won and know that he got it unscrupulously and I will go home happy that I shot 18/20 great shots. 

BUT....if I was someone who traveled to these big shoots and was interested in competing to win that would be a different story.........and most guys who shoot well that go to these big shoots are there trying to win. I don't blame all of you guys for being HOT!


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

".so until then, shut up and listen." TMorelli, telling posters this is like waving the proverbial red flag at the bull. We are not third graders being told to be silent while you lecture us. Yes I realize the innocent till proven guilty practice but there is sufficient evidence here to come to a logical conclusion. 

You see some of us as having a pitchfork mob mentality, I see it as fellow competitors who feel a sense of outrage for someone to go to these lengths to win an insignificant amount of money and recognition.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

-bowfreak- said:


> The sad part about this is someone actually cheats for *$237?*


He won over $1,200 in ASA the first 2 shoots this Year.!

And around $1,250 last Year in Open B and Open A.!


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

It's sad that Micheal Vincent is now only going to be known in the archery communty for cheating (rightfully so). I hope ASA and IBO can figure out somthing so they can prevent this from happening again. I think if someone really wants to cheat to win they will it's just up to us to find them and catch them. I congratulate who ever seen him do this and turned him in, and hopefully no one else that shot with him in the passed noticed him cheating and just turned their head they did no good for themselves or the greatt sport of archery.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

ABTABB said:


> He won over $1,200 in ASA the first 2 shoots this Year.!
> 
> And around $1,250 last Year in Open B and Open A.!



O.K. But shooting in his class is he paying his own way? If so...that is still not a lot of money. I am assuming this is the "cheat to get my name out there so I can become a top pro" mentality.


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

It is sad, But it is becoming more and more all the time... Some even do it on the Local level for a mere $10.00 Trophy!!!
Hurts Archery in more ways than just 1..... SAD!!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

wonder who figured it out and went to the range official. sounds like it was a long time coming. 

too many folks are reluctant to enforce the rules in their group, such as the two and one minute limit at the stake, touching or straddling the stake, looking with the binos after the shot from the stake, and stepping off the distance after the shot. as shooters we should not be afraid to call folks on these rule violations when they occur.

speaking of ripping off your fellow archers, vincent didn't get us for near as much as the folks from tournament archer magazine... i doubt if they'll ever show up at another ASA/IBO event either.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I won't lynch anyone but it does sound like he boldly cheated. Quite possibly he was doing it prior to this year. There seems to be a variety of angles by different witnesses that do more than merely suggest he's a cheat. 

The bigger issue is the fact that his cheating for a decent sum of money clearly makes him a liar and a thief. If I was his employer I'd be anything he had access to! If he was the treasurer of any of kind of youth sports league they better call in some auditors. If even my spouse did such a thing I'd raise a suspicious eye brow. He may be an excellent manipulator and con man as well. I know what I'm saying may sound over the top but he is the one that has brought everything he does under suspicion. We are constantly reading where a treasurer for a local youth league or church was previously found to be stealing from another non-profit in another state. Heck, our local travel soccer org was brought down by a mother of a former player that was a lawyer that had been a volunteer "treasurer" for over 10 years. When bills couldn't be paid a minimum of $130,000 was proven to be missing and most likely it was double that amount.

An honest person just does not suddenly decide to steal thousands of dollars. If he runs an archery club they better be checking their books!

I wish him the best and hope one day he gets his act together because he does have some serious flaws.


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## Hardtimes (Mar 22, 2008)

I think he has been hurt enough .I don't have anything bad to say about him. His reputation is gone , he has a dark cloud around him now (depressed) . Wherever he goes he will always be know for what he did. I think thats enough hurt. God Bless


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Very well said. Many can talk about how nice he is but yet he made this choice. I heard from others in semi that saw the binos and there was no doubt from the other semi pros he was caught red handed, Im sure most are wondering why they didnt realize it sooner. I do believe many archers will look back and in the minds have thoughts and wonder why they didnt catch it sooner. Any time someone shooting this good other archers should be well aware and police the sport. I applaud the archer who reported it finally. He the one everyone should be giving the pat on the back. I feel sorry for those who didnt win and finished 2nd and 3rd rightfully should have been a little higher or won.
> DB


I agree with most of this. I don't think that just because someone tears up a range that they should be suspected of cheating. Everybody gets lucky once in a while. What Michael did is going to have effects on the archery community for a long time. Everytime someone has a great day everybody is going to wonder how they did it. That's NOT what we need to do. When we see someone doing something different, like putting their binos in a chair and covering them with a towel, then start asking questions. We should not start spreading rumors when someone shoots great. Look at what Levi did in Kentucky last year. Did he cheat? I hear rumors but that's all they are. 

The few times I've talked to Michael he seemed like a great guy. I truely wish this had never happened. Not for his sake though. This is really going to hurt the sport I love. I'm glad the ****** bag got caught!!! I just wish everybody would play by the rules. I deal with this at my range. After every shoot I hear rumors about cheating. That really upsets me. At a local range everybody is friends. If these hurls feel like they need to cheat to win a $3.50 award I'll GIVE them one. Then they can go back to where ever they came from and tell everybody how great they shot. The part I can not understand is everytime they look at that award they know they didn't earn it. They know they stole it from the rightfull winner and they lied to everybody about their score. For what? $3.50! plus, everybody knows what happens. Everybody knows they cheated. They will never live that down. Just like michael will have to deal with, when they do shoot legitimate good scores no one will believe them. It's not worth it. If you cheat, keep your ass off my range!


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## DonsHarley (Sep 10, 2003)

Maybe they need to start checking optics at the gate.


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## shotzie43 (May 7, 2004)

Its just funny now hearing all of this after having been around him for both days in Florida. He went on and on about how he was confronted when he was walking an asa course and writing things down on a paper for his "strategy" during the shoot. He said he had to call the guys that were suspicious of him and make sure they were still "cool" because they really hurt his feelings when he found out about it. Bet his feelings are hurt now!


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

ohiobullseye said:


> I hope ASA and IBO can figure out somthing so they can prevent this from happening again.


Ban binos. :angel:

Let him keep shooting but only in the KD classes* IF* he refunds all his winnings.

Maybe he and Cuz can form a team.


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

This is a bad situation in a lot of ways. I can understand how Tmorelli feels, this guy has fooled a lot of people (obviously since he won the sportsmanship award) so it is going to be hard for them to swallow that he is a cheater. After hearing about how the binoculars were disguised and how he would hide them, you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that he is not a cheater, especially when he was kicking the pros butt. 

Bottom line though is that this guy STOLE a lot of money from some incredible shooters who work hard. I don't personally know CShive but I do know that he shoots a Mathews and ended up in 2nd at Louisiana Pro Am behind Vincent, this means that he was cheated out of $1,400 or more. How would you feel if someone did this to you? There are many others to list (including me) but this is just one example, even if he gives his money back these guys still have lost a lot of contingency money. 

He is a cheat and should be banned, I know that ASA will do the right thing.


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## skye5317 (Feb 28, 2009)

MOBOW#1 said:


> wondering where he hails from???


He is from Vicksburg, Ms. I know him and while it does surprise me that he did what he did, he is a very good shot. I have shot with him and he is a shooting machine.


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## jamesbowman (Jan 29, 2006)

Nice guys don't cheat- It's just that simple!! And he ought to be banned and made to give back all the winnings he has won to the guys who really won. And if Tiger Woods lost most of his sponsers for what he did off the course, what should a guy get that flat our cheated in his sport? Come on- I get sick and tired of people saying people are nice guys when they know nothing about their character- What he did tells what kind of guy he really is. Sounds to me he is the kind of guy who pats you on the back and then steals your wallet. The whole concept they were garage sale binos with covered up emblems also tells of the guys character. There would be only one reason to change emblems and your telling me someone at a garage sale did that so they could sell a pair of Zeiss binos as Alpens? Wow that sounds like a real believable story!!
A cheater is nothing more than thief, and thieves are not good guys in my book. This is what is wrong with our society today- We call thieves and cheats good ol boys!!


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

It's sad to see the number of guys on here who are out to crucify this guy and ban him for life. Truth is, Pro level archery is NO DIFFERENT from any other sport on the planet, whether it be football, basketball, NASCAR... doesnt matter. There's people who cheat at ALL levels of all sports. Some get away with it for a long time, others get busted first time. Dont get me wrong, I'm not taking up for the guy in any way, shape or form, BUT... I dont believe banning him for life in both ASA and IBO competition is going to do much for the betterment of the sport either. IF it were up to me, I'd ban him for the rest of this year, make him pay back all of his winnings for this season, THEN hold a review at the beginning of next season to determine if he will or will not be allowed to come back. Heck, even pro players at least get the CHANCE to redeem themselves. I wouldnt give you two dollars for Micheal Vic, but the league allowed him to come back (I know that wasnt a situation of cheating, but still), and how many other players have been busted for cheating, drugs, etc, etc, etc, and are still playing? No sir... first time being caught, ban him for the rest of the year. If there's a SECOND offense when he comes back, THEN he's out for life. Just my opinion.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

buttspanker said:


> I agree with most of this. I don't think that just because someone tears up a range that they should be suspected of cheating. Everybody gets lucky once in a while. What Michael did is going to have effects on the archery community for a long time. Everytime someone has a great day everybody is going to wonder how they did it. That's NOT what we need to do. When we see someone doing something different, like putting their binos in a chair and covering them with a towel, then start asking questions. We should not start spreading rumors when someone shoots great. Look at what Levi did in Kentucky last year. Did he cheat? I hear rumors but that's all they are.
> 
> The few times I've talked to Michael he seemed like a great guy. I truely wish this had never happened. Not for his sake though. This is really going to hurt the sport I love. I'm glad the ****** bag got caught!!! I just wish everybody would play by the rules. I deal with this at my range. After every shoot I hear rumors about cheating. That really upsets me. At a local range everybody is friends. If these hurls feel like they need to cheat to win a $3.50 award I'll GIVE them one. Then they can go back to where ever they came from and tell everybody how great they shot. The part I can not understand is everytime they look at that award they know they didn't earn it. They know they stole it from the rightfull winner and they lied to everybody about their score. For what? $3.50! plus, everybody knows what happens. Everybody knows they cheated. They will never live that down. Just like michael will have to deal with, when they do shoot legitimate good scores no one will believe them. It's not worth it. If you cheat, keep your ass off my range!


If he this good then lets see him now step up and shoot against guys like Hacker and Levi, Wallace and Brooks, Jamison.
I look forward to seeing how he handles this and his scores in the future. Other have cheated and soon he will be allowed to continue archery.
DB


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

skye5317 said:


> He is from Vicksburg, Ms. I know him and while it does surprise me that he did what he did, he is a very good shot. I have shot with him and he is a shooting machine.


All the more reason NOT to cheat, sounds like just after the almighty $, and was gonna make sure he got it!!! As stated previously, he should be convicted.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

jamesbowman said:


> Nice guys don't cheat- It's just that simple!! And he ought to be banned and made to give back all the winnings he has won to the guys who really won. And if Tiger Woods lost most of his sponsers for what he did off the course, what should a guy get that flat our cheated in his sport? Come on- I get sick and tired of people saying people are nice guys when they know nothing about their character- What he did tells what kind of guy he really is. Sounds to me he is the kind of guy who pats you on the back and then steals your wallet. The whole concept they were garage sale binos with covered up emblems also tells of the guys character. There would be only one reason to change emblems and your telling me someone at a garage sale did that so they could sell a pair of Zeiss binos as Alpens? Wow that sounds like a real believable story!!
> A cheater is nothing more than thief, and thieves are not good guys in my book. This is what is wrong with our society today- We call thieves and cheats good ol boys!!


I agree with you to a point, but...

You might want to take a little time and think about that tag line in your signature... sounds like you're a Christian. And, if I'm not mistaken, there's a few verses in the good book that deal with teaching forgiveness. Or, do you just have that line in there because it deals with hunting in some small way??


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> It's sad to see the number of guys on here who are out to crucify this guy and ban him for life. Truth is, Pro level archery is NO DIFFERENT from any other sport on the planet, whether it be football, basketball, NASCAR... doesnt matter. There's people who cheat at ALL levels of all sports. Some get away with it for a long time, others get busted first time. Dont get me wrong, I'm not taking up for the guy in any way, shape or form, BUT... I dont believe banning him for life in both ASA and IBO competition is going to do much for the betterment of the sport either. IF it were up to me, I'd ban him for the rest of this year, make him pay back all of his winnings for this season, THEN hold a review at the beginning of next season to determine if he will or will not be allowed to come back. Heck, even pro players at least get the CHANCE to redeem themselves. I wouldnt give you two dollars for Micheal Vic, but the league allowed him to come back (I know that wasnt a situation of cheating, but still), and how many other players have been busted for cheating, drugs, etc, etc, etc, and are still playing? No sir... first time being caught, ban him for the rest of the year. If there's a SECOND offense when he comes back, THEN he's out for life. Just my opinion.


Nothing sad about it at all. Others have cheated and ruined there reputation for life. Most of us know who they are and no one ever forgets. It often disscussed and whispered at events. He will never be looked at in a good light regardless if he allowed to return at the next event. My coach always said, you got one reputation in this sport
DB


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## fariss (May 15, 2010)

I seen this fellow shoot and he is awesome. It is no way he cheated he has to much class. Didn't he have to shoot in group anyway.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Mahly said:


> While he needs to be DQed, that goes without mention. I don't think he should be banned for life. I think he should forfeit ALL awards/prizes for the YEAR that he had "won" and be banned for at least 1-2 years. After that, he's served his time (unless he would actually go to jail for it) his sponsors will have dumped him, and he is back to starting on the ground floor.
> 
> He cheated, punish him. But let him learn a lesson and if he has the balls to come back and swallow his pride, let him start the journey all over...maybe he takes the right path next time.


Agreed.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I agree with you to a point, but...
> 
> You might want to take a little time and think about that tag line in your signature... sounds like you're a Christian. And, if I'm not mistaken, there's a few verses in the good book that deal with teaching forgiveness. Or, do you just have that line in there because it deals with hunting in some small way??


Dont be bringing religion into it. Some use it as a crutch and hide behind the bible. 
DB


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> Nothing sad about it at all. Others have cheated and ruined there reputation for life. Most of us know who they are and no one ever forgets. It often disscussed and whispered at events. He will never be looked at in a good light regardless if he allowed to return at the next event. * My coach always said, you got one reputation in this sport*
> DB


Yup... and that's whats sad about it. And I agree, he's ruined as far as his reputation with his fellow shooters is concerned. It's obvious that he cheated intentionally, just by the simply fact that he was hiding the controls and the name on his binos. But, I fail to see where banning him for life and never giving him at least the OPPORTUNITY to redeem himself is going to help the sport either. Face it, this isnt the NFL.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

skye5317 said:


> He is from Vicksburg, Ms. I know him and while it does surprise me that he did what he did, he is a very good shot. I have shot with him and he is a shooting machine.


Don't feel bad. He was good at what he does. A very good crook has be to a master manipulator of people.


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

Go get a beer boys, this is gona go on for a while.


fariss said:


> I seen this fellow shoot and he is awesome. It is no way he cheated he has to much class. Didn't he have to shoot in group anyway.


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## shotzie43 (May 7, 2004)

I'm sure he is "awesome".. a good solid shooter that never has the wrong yardage definitely would be. The "class" part is where you're sadly mistaken. This is something that a veteran 3D shooter doesn't just do by accident. This was a well thought out scam.


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## snuffer358 (Mar 12, 2006)

he is from vicksburg,ms about the middle of the state on the mississippi river


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## traditional1970 (Jan 5, 2009)

he should have all titles this year stripped away, fined the amount of his winnings this year, not allowed at ASA & IBO events for 1 year and have to wear a shirt that says "I CHEAT TO WIN"


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## cheaplaughs (Mar 27, 2005)

I met Lucas at the the Florida shoot. I guess you did alLot better than you thought Lucas Congrats. Will probably see you and your buddies in Georgia.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

shotzie43 said:


> I'm sure he is "awesome".. a good solid shooter that never has the wrong yardage definitely would be. The "class" part is where you're sadly mistaken. This is something that a veteran 3D shooter doesn't just do by accident. This was a well thought out scam.


Maybe he had the ranging binos in the same case with Alpens and label fell off the Alpens and stuck to the range finders? When he picked them up he thought he had the regular Alpens.... 

The previous line was promoted by Sarcasma. 
https://msmvps.com/blogs/brianmadsen/archive/2008/05/01/a-new-drug-is-out-there-sarcasma.aspx


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## shotzie43 (May 7, 2004)

Lol. Maybe so! Its just crazy remembering his routine now from when I watched him in Florida. He was very particular about making sure they were covered after he put them in his bag. I'm so pissed at myself that I didn't pick up on it then. Would've helped alot of honest guys out!


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## old44 (Jan 6, 2011)

What goes around comes around eventually.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

IRISH_11 said:


> the binos were zeiss rangefinding binoculars. The button to activate the rangefinder was covered in camo and the zeiss emblem was covered with an alpen sticker. I can't wait to see this coward if he has the guts to attend the 3rd leg of the ibo southern triple crown n Georgia. I will heckle him all weekend.


No one likes a cheater! With that said, he is still a brother Archer, and although he deserves some discipline and a little shame shame, he also deserves forgiveness.


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## jamesbowman (Jan 29, 2006)

Yes some hide behind religion and yes religion has nothing to do with this so keep it out of it. And yes I have my personal beliefs and I believe in forgiveness and grace. But this is about ASA rules, cheating, and dishonesty. If I got caught cheating of this magnitude I would expect nothing less than to get banned and have to pay back my winnings. So to those who think that is to harsh I say you would probably be the same ones who would give cheating executives a million dollar bonus and a paid vaction. There used to be a thing called justice that demands the right payment for an evil dishonest action. Oh by the way Michale Vick was fighting dogs not using a jet powered football in a game. Don't like what he was doing but he wasn't cheating in his sport.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I talked with Lucas after the shoot in Florida as well and he seemed to be pretty down on his score compared to his competitor and he could not figure out how Vincent shot so high. I shot those ranges as well and they were very hard to Judge. Now you know how it was done! Lucas keep your head up cheaters never win!


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

straight2it said:


> he is still a brother Archer,


Not in my opinion... He is nothing more than a cheater.


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## nimh (Nov 26, 2011)

SHPoet said:


> Not in my opinion... He is nothing more than a cheater.


Yup!


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

It's really hard for me to understand some of your coments. I agree that he should be severely punished for his law breaking, but ban him for life is kind of ignorant. So the next time you get caught breaking a law, ex. speeding, do you need to be banned from driving? Just wondering.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

jamesbowman said:


> Yes some hide behind religion and yes religion has nothing to do with this so keep it out of it. And yes I have my personal beliefs and I believe in forgiveness and grace. But this is about ASA rules, cheating, and dishonesty. If I got caught cheating of this magnitude I would expect nothing less than to get banned and have to pay back my winnings. So to those who think that is to harsh I say you would probably be the same ones who would give cheating executives a million dollar bonus and a paid vaction. There used to be a thing called justice that demands the right payment for an evil dishonest action. Oh by the way Michale Vick was fighting dogs not using a jet powered football in a game. Don't like what he was doing but he wasn't cheating in his sport.


Yeah, I believe I STATED that Vic's deal wasnt about cheating, but he STILL violated NFL rules of conduct... and as far as I'm concerned it was way more serious than cheating, BUT... he DID get a second chance, JUST as many MANY other pro and semi-pro athletes have over the years, in almost every sport imaginable. Cheating has been RAMPANT in the Olympic games forever... many of those top athletes get the chance to come back. Motorsports has been a mecca for years for cheaters and those who want to push the bounds and see how far they can push the rulebook, yet we piss and moan when a driver or crewchief is caught and fined. And yes sir, if I was caught cheating, i'd expect no less than to be banned for a period of time, have my winnings taken away, and expect the scorn of my brother archers. But, to ban the guy for life and theoretically burn him at the stake is a bit harsh, AND pretty hypocritical of a bunch of you. "Justice" is handing down the proper punishment that fits the crime committed, and in this case I personally dont feel that the lifetime banning some of you are pushing for is warranted.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

jamesbowman said:


> Yes some hide behind religion and yes religion has nothing to do with this so keep it out of it. And yes I have my personal beliefs and I believe in forgiveness and grace. But this is about ASA rules, cheating, and dishonesty. If I got caught cheating of this magnitude I would expect nothing less than to get banned and have to pay back my winnings. So to those who think that is to harsh I say you would probably be the same ones who would give cheating executives a million dollar bonus and a paid vaction. There used to be a thing called justice that demands the right payment for an evil dishonest action. Oh by the way Michale Vick was fighting dogs not using a jet powered football in a game. Don't like what he was doing but he wasn't cheating in his sport.


I didn't say he shouldn't pay a price. He should be banned for a year at least. He knows better and wasn't just cheating himself, he was cheating others. If the pressure was that great to win that that is what he resorted to, then he shouldn't be shooting for awhile anyway.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

SHPoet said:


> Not in my opinion... He is nothing more than a cheater.


I agree he is a Cheater if that is proven, but I believe people deserve a second chance to be humbled and make the right decision instead of the wrong ones.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

straight2it said:


> I agree he is a Cheater if that is proven, but I believe people deserve a second chance to be humbled and make the right decision instead of the wrong ones.


If your daughters boyfriend played poker with you and your buddies on Saturday night and you caught him cheating to take money away from you and your buddies, would you let him come back and keep playing?


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

SHPoet said:


> If your daughters boyfriend played poker with you and your buddies on Saturday night and you caught him cheating to take money away from you and your buddies, would you let him come back and keep playing?


IF it was the first time he'd been caught and he owned up to it and took responsibility for his actions and apologized for it, I'd give him a second chance after he sat out for a while... AFTER my buddies put the fear of God in him and educated the young lad as to what was going to happen if he was caught again. Geeze, I'm sure that NONE of you guys who are calling for a public hanging of this guy have EVER gotten so much as a parking ticket in your entire self righteous lives. Punishment yes, that's a given. Ending the guy's potential pro archery career over a first offense... not hardly. I have no problem with forgiving someone and giving them a second chance the first time. The path they choose after that determines how things will go from there on out. I DON'T give third chances.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

We had a guy at one of our big shoots just this weekend walk up to near the next shooting stake, plop his chair down, look at the target with his non range finding binoculars then look at the front of them as he put them down, he then usually set his sight. When it was his turn to shoot, he got up and took a quick look at the target and made the shot. As you can guess he scored really well. The focus knob had some writing on it and not covered up, just wondering???


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't think he should be banned for life, but it should be a pretty stiff penalty of multiple years. He should also forfeit his winnings. In the end, neither of those things are going to be the worst for him; having the stigma of a cheater in the sport is what is going to haunt him forever, and people don't forget easily. Not to mention that the likelihood of keeping or getting any future sponsors is now virtually nil.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

ILOVE3D said:


> The focus knob had some writing on it and not covered up, just wondering???


I did some experimenting with this.... It does not work very well. 

I used the bino focus knob with writing on it then, without looking did an eyeball measurement then, took out the range finder. My eyes were more accurate than the bino method.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Some of you seem to actually feel.sorry for the guy.
I feel bad for the ones who got cheated out of their wins. What about those folks? Doesn't anyone care about them?
If it was you who was in second place but lost to a cheater how would you feel.
If this guy walks away with a slap on the wrist it will do more damage to the sport than good. 
IMO his punishment needs to be very very harsh. At least to show that the ASA cares about their members and will not tolerate cheating.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

shootstraight said:


> Seems it wasn't that long ago that a very well known pro was ranging targets using the different size gaps in his cams, which brought about a change in the rules, yet he still shoots..


Surprised no one else has picked up on this...


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

I havent seen a post yet where anyone has expressed feeling "sorry" for the guy. He cheated, plain and simple... no denying that. And yes, if I was one of the guys who came in behind him, I'm sure I'd be madder than a wet hornet. But, at the same time, I doubt very seriously if I'd be calling for him to be banned from the sport for LIFE. As bad as I hate cheaters, I still believe that everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves at some point, and at least TRY to make things right. The ASA DOES need to hand down a harsh penalty for this, I agree with you. BUT, at the same time, the ASA needs to take a look at the way they do things at tournaments, and make it harder for shooters TO cheat in the first place. Maybe a shooter's gear and binoculars need to be checked by an ASA official as they're stepping on the course for the first target. 



XForce Girl said:


> Some of you seem to actually feel.sorry for the guy.
> I feel bad for the ones who got cheated out of their wins. What about those folks? Doesn't anyone care about them?
> If it was you who was in second place but lost to a cheater how would you feel.
> If this guy walks away with a slap on the wrist it will do more damage to the sport than good.
> ...


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I simply can't believe some people are trying to stick-up or justify a cheater....regardless of the gentleman's personality, IF he cheated, he wronged EVERYONE in the sport. It hurts everyone from the pro to the amateur and it puts a black eye on the sport that so many of us love.

Bernie Madoff was a nice guy too, he'd even buy you lunch if you invested with him.

Pete Rose is one of the nicest people you will ever meet.


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

XForce Girl said:


> Some of you seem to actually feel.sorry for the guy.
> I feel bad for the ones who got cheated out of their wins. What about those folks? Doesn't anyone care about them?
> If it was you who was in second place but lost to a cheater how would you feel.
> If this guy walks away with a slap on the wrist it will do more damage to the sport than good.
> ...


I didn't see many, if anyone, that felt sorry for him. I did see a lot that wanted to punished to the max without banning him. He should be made to pay the money back and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th places be honored for their rightful finish.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

SHPoet said:


> I did some experimenting with this.... It does not work very well.
> 
> I used the bino focus knob with writing on it then, without looking did an eyeball measurement then, took out the range finder. My eyes were more accurate than the bino method.


Why were you experimenting with cheating?


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## Foam Gnome (Sep 22, 2011)

if the ASA got serious about cheating and they conducted the ban for life policy on the local ASA circuits,McKenzie would go out of business


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## AdvanTimberLou (Aug 8, 2005)

DonsHarley said:


> Maybe they need to start checking optics at the gate.


I bet they do now my friend! I was unaware of the rules in outdoor 3D for ASA & IBO but I would have thought when the technology today with rangefinders built into them, they would be checked at EVERY top money shoot. Just don't give them a look over, look through them and make sure someone didn't swap out the outer shell, I bet cheaters would go to that level.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

AdvanTimberLou said:


> I bet they do now my friend! I was unaware of the rules in outdoor 3D for ASA & IBO but I would have thought when the technology today with rangefinders built into them, they would be checked at EVERY top money shoot. Just don't give them a look over, look through them and make sure someone didn't swap out the outer shell, I bet cheaters would go to that level.


EXACTLY. how much time does it take to look at a pair of binos, and look through them to check them? Should have been a standing rule all along as far as I'm concerned, or at LEAST have been put into place the day rangefinding binos started coming on the scene.


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

Curios to see if any legal actions could b taken.I mean we are talking about thousands of dollars that could be involved.Seems to been a plan to fraud money here if true.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> EXACTLY. how much time does it take to look at a pair of binos, and look through them to check them? Should have been a standing rule all along as far as I'm concerned, or at LEAST have been put into place the day rangefinding binos started coming on the scene.


For 1200+ shooters? That you would have to check multiple times since they shoot multiple days.. I'd say, quite a bit of time actually. 


If someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. You don't think by the time they leave the equipment check station they could not put batteries back in? Or grab a different set of binocs? The equipment check idea is just like a good door lock; it just keeps honest people honest.


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## speedytt (Apr 24, 2006)

it should be like the old days, no binoculars , it make the shoots a lot faster


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## fariss (May 15, 2010)

I'm sorry to say but tell are right he did caught cheating.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

JawsDad said:


> For 1200+ shooters? That you would have to check multiple times since they shoot multiple days.. I'd say, quite a bit of time actually.
> 
> 
> If someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. You don't think by the time they leave the equipment check station they could not put batteries back in? Or grab a different set of binocs? The equipment check idea is just like a good door lock; it just keeps honest people honest.


You have an official posted at the entrance to the first target on each course, checking each group as they come on the course. It's not that difficult, and NOT that time consuming. That would keep them from being able to even get a pair of rangefinding binos ON the course to begin with.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

fariss said:


> i'm sorry to say but tell are right he did caught cheating.


huh???


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Rolo said:


> Surprised no one else has picked up on this...


That was suspected, never proven!


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

fariss said:


> I seen this fellow shoot and he is awesome. It is no way he cheated he has to much class. Didn't he have to shoot in group anyway.


Well apparently, there IS a way, and he DID cheat... He was caught with operating, rangefinding binos ON the course, and had allegedly been using them, how much clearer does that need to be for you to get it? "Class" is a term that's open to a LOT of interpretation.


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

ban all binos, problem solved


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

hatchettjack said:


> ban all binos, problem solved


I'm almost inclined to agree with you. If a shooter is using target cards, or has been shooting 3D any appreciable length of time, he knows where the scoring rings are anyway, so I fail to see what real advantage binos provide in the first place.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

Range finders and score correcting pencils are very common place. I have even seen cheating partners, that is one person in the background with laser binos and a cell phone talking to the shooters ear piece. After seeing the cheating I only shoot these shoots for my enjoyment. I will not pay to compete with crooks.

The solution is marked yardage, colored ten rings and independent score keepers for each trophy seeking group.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> You have an official posted at the entrance to the first target on each course, checking each group as they come on the course. It's not that difficult, and NOT that time consuming. That would keep them from being able to even get a pair of rangefinding binos ON the course to begin with.



I think it's still naive to think that's going to stop someone from cheating, especially if they are intent on doing so. And I still believe it will take more time that you think. Assuming you have the man power to put a check station on each range, you're going to task that person with checking upwards of 100 (or more) people. What are you going to task that person with? Checking the binocs for ranging capabilities? If they have the ability, check for battery removal? If the batteries are removed, have them do a full TSA body search to ensure no power producing sources exist on their person?

Right now the obvious focus is on the topic at hand, range finders. What about speed checks? I've gone to several big ASA events and have yet to shoot through a chronograph at one. If you're going to do equipment inspections, should you not check all relevant rules that are based on equipment?


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## Boomfer (Nov 2, 2011)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I'm almost inclined to agree with you. If a shooter is using target cards, or has been shooting 3D any appreciable length of time, he knows where the scoring rings are anyway, so I fail to see what real advantage binos provide in the first place.


Using binos makes a huge difference. Seeing where the paint lines are, checking lighting and shadows, evaluating target angle and much more. They really do make a very big difference. If you ban all binos, I can guarantee you would see some drop in numbers of shooters.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Boomfer said:


> Using binos makes a huge difference. Seeing where the paint lines are, checking lighting and shadows, evaluating target angle and much more. They really do make a very big difference. If you ban all binos, I can guarantee you would see some drop in numbers of shooters.


That's what ASA and all orgs need to do right now. When a situation like this happens, they need to collectively step back, evaluate and then react. Knee jerk reactions serve no purpose and usually are worse off in the end.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

skynight said:


> Why were you experimenting with cheating?


I heard someone talking about it and it sounded a bit far-fetched to me. I'm one of those folks that want "proof" of everything so I tried it. I also did not, the the time, like the idea of binos on the 3D range and wanted to see if you could cheat using them.


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## nilrednuas (Feb 9, 2012)

Boomfer said:


> If you ban all binos, I can guarantee you would see some drop in numbers of shooters.


Oh well, it will just weed out the people who want to be there to compete and the ones who are just there for the fame and fortune. As for the pencil whipping, being in the military Ive never seen an official document unless it was filled out and signed in black ink.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I'm almost inclined to agree with you. If a shooter is using target cards, or has been shooting 3D any appreciable length of time, he knows where the scoring rings are anyway, so I fail to see what real advantage binos provide in the first place.


Could they make the rings more visible to the naked eye or would that wreck the integrity of the course?


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

JawsDad said:


> I think it's still naive to think that's going to stop someone from cheating, especially if they are intent on doing so. And I still believe it will take more time that you think. Assuming you have the man power to put a check station on each range, you're going to task that person with checking upwards of 100 (or more) people. What are you going to task that person with? Checking the binocs for ranging capabilities? If they have the ability, check for battery removal? If the batteries are removed, have them do a full TSA body search to ensure no power producing sources exist on their person?
> 
> Right now the obvious focus is on the topic at hand, range finders. What about speed checks? I've gone to several big ASA events and have yet to shoot through a chronograph at one. If you're going to do equipment inspections, should you not check all relevant rules that are based on equipment?


I know full well that it wont stop all cheating, but I can guarantee it would cut down on it a BUNCH. I fail to see what you are thinking would be so hard about having a shooter hand an official their binos, the offiicial look at them, and look through them. So a guy has to check 100 shooters... big deal. Ever seen what goes into a tech inspection every ROUND for 500 drag racers in various classes at a national event? I dont think checking binos at a check point would be that big of a stretch for someone with even a shred of intelligence. If they're rangefinding binos, they shouldnt be allowed on the course at all. Allowing shooters to use them IF the batteries are taken out is idiotic to begin with, and is just ASKING for cheaters to take advantage. 

And yes, I think that if the ASA is going to HAVE rules in place and in the books, such as speed limits, they need to be ENFORCED, no questions asked. What's the point of even HAVING rules if they're not being enforced?


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

straight2it said:


> Could they make the rings more visible to the naked eye or would that wreck the integrity of the course?


There really is no " integrity of the course" any more. 3D used to be practice for hunting and a fun day out with friends.

It's an archery competition now days, nothing more nothing less.


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## nilrednuas (Feb 9, 2012)

straight2it said:


> Could they make the rings more visible to the naked eye or would that wreck the integrity of the course?


Does any of the game you hunt have a visible target ring on it?


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## pabowman (Jun 19, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm going to say this once and I'm not going to argue over it.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more Tony, wait until the people in charge are able to sit down and decipher what's going on and pass their judgement. And let it be after that. 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Boomfer said:


> Using binos makes a huge difference. Seeing where the paint lines are, checking lighting and shadows, evaluating target angle and much more. They really do make a very big difference. If you ban all binos, I can guarantee you would see some drop in numbers of shooters.


Well, if shooters want to drop out just because they cant use their binos, so be it. Just cuts down on the competition for the rest of us, and eliminates some who might be inclined to cheat to begin with.


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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

Okay I would have to say that my opinion on this may matter more than most here on AT. I took 2nd to him at the Florida ibo. I don't shoot Asa but if they were like the ibo they would ban him for a year. I also think that all of his scores from the Asa should be DQed. I think the ibo should do the same, a shooting year ban and DQ all of his scores from this year. I don't want to crucify him and ban him for life. But there is no telling how long he was using the binofinders. The guy can shoot, he should have never cheated, but guess what he did. I'm sure the Asa will take care of their side of the matter but if he continues to be allowed to shoot in the ibo this year and win the southern triple crown or shooter of the year, the ibo and Asa has failed it's real shooters.


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## BADARCHERMAN (Jan 5, 2005)

What was his plan when he eventually got in the shoot down?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

bowsrd said:


> I didn't see many, if anyone, that felt sorry for him. I did see a lot that wanted to punished to the max without banning him. He should be made to pay the money back and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th places be honored for their rightful finish.


Yes all the ones who want him to apologize and not get banned for life. Those are the ones that must feel sorry for him to not want him to get what he really deserves.
Sorry, but he needs to be banned. He knew what he was doing and took great steps to hide it. He deceived everyone who was there, took money from the rightful winners. And who knows how long he has been doing it? Could of been at it for years.
He got greedy and didn't give a second thought too all the folks he basically stole from.
He's bad for the sport and needs to be made an example of.
He needs to be banned for life. 
He probably wouldn't have the guts to return anyway. 
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

what would shooters feel about going to a system like redding employs with the highlighted "dot" for the 11, 12, 14, whatev you wanna have it as.. just make it unknown yardage.. that way you know what your shooting at... where it is


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## shotzie43 (May 7, 2004)

Not to bash anyone, but those of you who don't believe in using binoculars obviously aren't very competitive 3D shooters. Like someone just mentioned, no matter how many 3D targets you've shot, things change. The target can be leaning, or the painting may be different....etc. etc..etc. Binoculars when used legally only bring the better shooters to the top. If you don't know exactly where your aiming point is, its merely a game of chance. If you want to eliminate them, I really don't think you know what you're talking about


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

shotzie43 said:


> Not to bash anyone, but those of you who don't believe in using binoculars obviously aren't very competitive 3D shooters. Like someone just mentioned, no matter how many 3D targets you've shot, things change. The target can be leaning, or the painting may be different....etc. etc..etc. Binoculars when used legally only bring the better shooters to the top. If you don't know exactly where your aiming point is, its merely a game of chance. If you want to eliminate them, I really don't think you know what you're talking about


I kind of agree but not all the way.

I would bet that if binos were banned, you'd still see the same top 10 at most of the shoots.


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## BowMadinTN (Jan 2, 2010)

SHPoet said:


> Ban binos. :angel:
> 
> 
> No! don't ban binos!Are you crazy? Just ban CHEATERS! Sounds like he is caught,no two ways about it! MV, shame on you! Screw him, throw the book at him ASA officials! He doesn't deserve to compete with the rest of us who put in the time and $ to practice judging/shooting every chance we get so that we can compete HONESTLY. So this also makes him a LIAR and a THIEF, because he essentially stole first place from anyone who came in second to him at other events! I despise people like him even if he is a nice guy otherwise! Hang him and burn him alive!LOL! Seriously though, he shouldn't be allowed to compete in ASA for a good long while if ever. my two cents.


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## Evanryan (Apr 7, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> Seems it wasn't that long ago that a very well known pro was ranging targets using the different size gaps in his cams, which brought about a change in the rules, yet he still shoots..


I've never shot anything competitively and I agree the fake branding is a good clear sign he was cheating. Punishment will come from this and his peers knowing. Won't likely need to ban him, he'll likely lay low or quit. 

But I'm curious from rules guys on this post? Why would that be illegal? He's using his legal equipment and learned how to reference distance with it. That's not likely very precise like a rangefinder. I'm assuming everyone on the range would look at trees, stumps, something 10 yds away and start doing a calculation to extrapolate the yardage. He just added a cam hole into the mix?

Sounds like a smart move but as I said I don't know if this is addresses in a rule.


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## nwmulie (Jan 15, 2008)

The checking of the binos could easily be done by competitors. Before the first shot everyone in the group exchanges optics. A qick look over and then you shoot. Just like double score cards, your direct competition will keep you honest.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

What??? ban the binos???? No need for that.


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## BigBird1 (Dec 10, 2002)

I don't condone what he did but let's get real people. There's no stopping technology and the binos with built in range finders will be all you can buy in 10 years. They also will be very cheap. I thought the purpose of 3D was to help you become a better bowhunter. I personally wouldn't dream of going on a hunt without my rangefinder and binos. If I can buy a quality set of binos with the range finder built in for a reasonable price, why in the world wouldn't I use them. Come on guys step into the 21st century.
It also won't be long before your bowsight will have this technology built in to it. What are you going to do when these sight are also commonplace and cheap to boot.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I know full well that it wont stop all cheating, but I can guarantee it would cut down on it a BUNCH. I fail to see what you are thinking would be so hard about having a shooter hand an official their binos, the offiicial look at them, and look through them. So a guy has to check 100 shooters... big deal. Ever seen what goes into a tech inspection every ROUND for 500 drag racers in various classes at a national event? I dont think checking binos at a check point would be that big of a stretch for someone with even a shred of intelligence. If they're rangefinding binos, they shouldnt be allowed on the course at all. Allowing shooters to use them IF the batteries are taken out is idiotic to begin with, and is just ASKING for cheaters to take advantage.
> 
> And yes, I think that if the ASA is going to HAVE rules in place and in the books, such as speed limits, they need to be ENFORCED, no questions asked. What's the point of even HAVING rules if they're not being enforced?


I get what you're saying, you're not just saying add the check points (upwards of 15 of them at a big shoot), you're saying change the rules on the type of binocs that can be used.. 

I say adding rules is not a solution. The rules are there already there. We see the world through very different viewpoints I guess.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

XForce Girl said:


> Yes all the ones who want him to apologize and not get banned for life. Those are the ones that must feel sorry for him to not want him to get what he really deserves.
> Sorry, but he needs to be banned. He knew what he was doing and took great steps to hide it. He deceived everyone who was there, took money from the rightful winners. And who knows how long he has been doing it? Could of been at it for years.
> He got greedy and didn't give a second thought too all the folks he basically stole from.
> He's bad for the sport and needs to be made an example of.
> ...


Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I dont feel sorry for the guy at all. He cheated and got caught, end of story. But, I dont think he should be banned for life over a first offense, and I'll stand by that opinion. And you're right, more than likely he's been doing this for a while. But, that can only be speculated on, and speculation is not enough to nail a guy to the cross. The ASA can only enforce what it can prove. Heck, one of the guys who placed second below him even said he doesnt want him banned for life. 

And yeah, he may never show his face at a tournament again, after this. It would take some HUGE cajones to come back. Add to that the fact that no sponsor in their right mind is going to even THINK about touching him after all this, and it's easy to see that there's LOTS of punishment going to come down on him that's just as harsh or worse than anything the ASA is going to do to him.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

JawsDad said:


> I get what you're saying, you're not just saying add the check points (upwards of 15 of them at a big shoot), you're saying change the rules on the type of binocs that can be used..
> 
> I say adding rules is not a solution. The rules are there already there. We see the world through very different viewpoints I guess.


Not really saying ADD rules... just saying modify the rules that are already in place as far as the type of binos that can be used, and actually start ENFORCING them. If the ASA is not going to enforce the rules they've got on the books, why even have them?


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> That was suspected, never proven!


And for arguments sake only...at best in this instance, someone had operable rangefinding binocs on the course, but no one really knows if they were being used. Yeah...I get all the circumstantial evidence...and the same applies to times past too...

Assuming all of this is true, certainly punishment of some type is in order...but as with all things, whatever the form of the punisdhment is, it should be based on sound reason, and not emotional reaction. A lot of the posts oin this thread are based almost entirely on emotional reaction and knee-jerk response.

I guess in the world of some...anyone who cheats should never be allowed to take part in the "game" again...my guess is that that would elimninate probably everybody, myself included, from taking part in whatever that activity is again. Please note that "game" is in "" for a reason...it is not used to just be applicable to the foam game...


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## nilrednuas (Feb 9, 2012)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I dont feel sorry for the guy at all. He cheated and got caught, end of story. But, I dont think he should be banned for life over a first offense, and I'll stand by that opinion.


Maybe murderers should get a free pass for a first offense too. That will teach them not to do it again.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> Not really saying ADD rules... just saying modify the rules that are already in place as far as the type of binos that can be used, and actually start ENFORCING them. If the ASA is not going to enforce the rules they've got on the books, why even have them?


Well.. I guess I take it as saying they are enforcing them. If you look at the scores, the person in question had no score for yesterday. Having the rule modified in this case would not have stopped the incident from occurring. The equipment check may or may not have caught it either. By all, unofficial, accounts, the item in question was modified or camouflaged. Would the person doing the inspection have even caught it if this type of binoc was not allowed considering it was one set of binocs going incognito as a different kind? I know you'll say it was probably somewhat obvious, but without having first hand knowledge, I can't say if that's the case or not. So.. that's a long way around back to my original point.. A modified rule and possibly a check point will serve only to keep the honest people honest. Intent to cheat is going to do what has to be done to circumvent the systems designed to stop it.




I trust those involved with running ASA will do their due dilligence in this situation and address it appropriately and NOT make a knee jerk reaction. At least in this case (ASA) the proverbial buck has a finite place to stop and the decision to be made.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

BowMadinTN said:


> SHPoet said:
> 
> 
> > Ban binos. :angel:
> ...


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## jg1418 (Feb 3, 2003)

Maybe instead of being banned for life, how about suspended for one year and upon being reinstated, he would NEVER be permitted to use binos on a sanctioned event ever again.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

shotzie43 said:


> Not to bash anyone, but those of you who don't believe in using binoculars obviously aren't very competitive 3D shooters. Like someone just mentioned, no matter how many 3D targets you've shot, things change. The target can be leaning, or the painting may be different....etc. etc..etc. Binoculars when used legally only bring the better shooters to the top. * If you don't know exactly where your aiming point is, its merely a game of chance. * If you want to eliminate them, I really don't think you know what you're talking about


And WHAT exactly is so bad about that?? Seems like it just makes it a bit more competitive to me. The last time I checked, COMPETING was not a "sure thing". I've shot 3D for a while now, and I'm plenty competitive. I also know how to shoot without my binos. All the years I've been hunting, I dont recollect EVER seeing a deer or hog with a scoring ring painted on them. Where is the competition when all a guy has to do is look through his binos, find the pretty painted ring, and shoot it? I'd venture to guess that some of these "top shots" might not fair so well if they weren't allowed to use their optics.


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## COATED (Jun 3, 2009)

jg1418 said:


> Maybe instead of being banned for life, how about suspended for one year and upon being reinstated, he would NEVER be permitted to use binos on a sanctioned event ever again.


Maybe something like this.

Here is CA....even the government gives felons 3 tries......


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

BigBird1 said:


> I don't condone what he did but let's get real people. There's no stopping technology and the binos with built in range finders will be all you can buy in 10 years. They also will be very cheap. I thought the purpose of 3D was to help you become a better bowhunter. I personally wouldn't dream of going on a hunt without my rangefinder and binos. If I can buy a quality set of binos with the range finder built in for a reasonable price, why in the world wouldn't I use them. Come on guys step into the 21st century.
> It also won't be long before your bowsight will have this technology built in to it. What are you going to do when these sight are also commonplace and cheap to boot.


3D may have started as a way to prepare for hunting but it has progressed beyond that now. It now is a sport just like football, baseball, basketball and the like. It may not be paid as high as the afore mentioned sports but it is a sport all the same. If a nascar team was caught cheating during a race or in post race inspection after causing your driver to take second place, you would not say," well I will be using that equipement in the future anyway" so let him keep the win and the prize money. The fact is he broke the rules as they now stand, a punishment nees to be handed out.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Rolo said:


> And for arguments sake only...at best in this instance, *someone had operable rangefinding binocs on the course, but no one really knows if they were being used*. Yeah...I get all the circumstantial evidence...and the same applies to times past too...
> 
> Assuming all of this is true, certainly punishment of some type is in order...but as with all things, whatever the form of the punisdhment is, it should be based on sound reason, and not emotional reaction. A lot of the posts oin this thread are based almost entirely on emotional reaction and knee-jerk response.
> 
> I guess in the world of some...anyone who cheats should never be allowed to take part in the "game" again...my guess is that that would elimninate probably everybody, myself included, from taking part in whatever that activity is again. Please note that "game" is in "" for a reason...it is not used to just be applicable to the foam game...


The someone is "Michael Vincent". The range finder was definitely operable and being used according to people in his group. They were definitely modified to conceal what they were. Now whether he actually pushed the button and read the yardage can't be known for certain. Did he push the button? Looking at all the evidence I would say that he did and I would say he did beyond any reasonable doubt. How could someone buy a high dollar item like that, go to the trouble of modifying it's appearance, hiding them and NOT press the button? 

It's not really circumstantial when a range officials picks the bino/rangefinder up and uses it to clearly range a target. Some on here also testified to looking through them and a ranging an object. How is that "circumstantial"? He altered the appearance of the bino/rangefinder to hide it's identity? How is that circumstantial? 

He stole over a 1,000 dollars! Not a $3 trophy. It is very likely people will be coming forward to say he used the same "binos" at other tournaments it may be he has stolen 1000's of dollars over multiple events. He is an experienced 3d competitor supposedly fairly winning 2 Open "A" ASA tournaments last year so it is likely he knew very well what he was doing. If someone suspects he cheated at London, KY and Illinois last year they have very good reason to do so.

If he continues to lie he will bury himself. I expect more lies to come forward like "I didn't know there was a battery in it". My prediction is he disappears and over time tells people he was the victim. If he wants to continue to lie and steal that is the best thing for him to do. Else he should deal with his mistakes head up and straight on.


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## td051 (Jan 14, 2007)

tack09 said:


> If he covered up the identifying buttons and labels on the binos, he knew what he was doing. No excuse period.


X2. Regardless of when he first did this, he cannot be trusted. Sorry but he cheated and now has to pay for his poor judgement.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Why are you reading this thread and posting?



 That telling it like is!
DB


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

I will do that, just as soon as you have something meaningful to add to the discussion. Otherwise, go shoot some paper.


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

Last time I was at a 3d tournament there was no pretty painteed ring on the animal. There were grooves that indicated the score rings but they blended in after about 10 yards so that you could not see them without bino's. For those of us not using bino's it was a game of knowing the type of targets and where the score rings are by the anatomy and markings of the animals. There may be some minor variation in paint markings but the manufacturers do a goood job making them all the same so a person can learn exactly where the rings are.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> The someone is "Michael Vincent". The range finder was definitely operable and being used according to people in his group. They were definitely modified to conceal what they were. Now whether he actually pushed the button and read the yardage can't be known for certain. Did he push the button? Looking at all the evidence I would say that he did and I would say he did beyond any reasonable doubt. How could someone buy a high dollar item like that, go to the trouble of modifying it's appearance, hiding them and NOT press the button?
> 
> It's not really circumstantial when a range officials picks the bino/rangefinder up and uses it to clearly range a target. Some on here also testified to looking through them and a ranging an object. How is that "circumstantial"? He altered the appearance of the bino/rangefinder to hide it's identity? How is that circumstantial?
> 
> ...


That's what I said "for arguments sake only". :wink:

The main point was in response to the knee jerk emotional condemnation that has been stated by some..,.I highly doubt that anyone posting on this thread is infalliable...and I wonder their reaction would be if their proclamations were used against them for their acts of the past, whether archery related or otherwise...punishment is certainly in order...if anything, having a rangefinder on the course alone (which appears to be uncontroverted) is enough IMO for severe sanctions whether they were used or not...but the vitriole in this thread is ammusing...especially if viewed beyond the foam game...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> And WHAT exactly is so bad about that?? Seems like it just makes it a bit more competitive to me. The last time I checked, COMPETING was not a "sure thing". I've shot 3D for a while now, and I'm plenty competitive. I also know how to shoot without my binos. All the years I've been hunting, I dont recollect EVER seeing a deer or hog with a scoring ring painted on them. Where is the competition when all a guy has to do is look through his binos, find the pretty painted ring, and shoot it? I'd venture to guess that some of these "top shots" might not fair so well if they weren't allowed to use their optics.


The game is what YOU want to make of it. Nothing says you have to use a scope or even an adjustable sight, I don't. For a long time I only shot a couple local 3d tournaments prior to hunting season. I shot hundreds of arrows each week just to be a decent shot for hunting purposes. Now I shoot competitively indoors in the winter and 3D in the spring and summer. I'll use my hunting bow on occasion and exclusively 6 weeks prior to hunting season.

If people couldn't use binos then it would be even _more _advantageous for the guys that own a bunch of targets, go to many shoots and have better eye sight. For the most part the better 3D'ers would still be better.

The bowling alley is full of people just playing but there are many playing competitively. A bunch of us play co-ed softball for fun but it doesn't mean we don't compete against the other team.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I just heard from a reliable source that:

DB shot Trayvon.

Irish11 has Hoffa buried under an azalea bush in his flower bed.

Xforcegirl's hand fits OJ's bloody glove perfectly.

Kstigall is an assistant to Madoff.


Let's march on ASA headquarters and Washington! It'll be the million quiver march! We'll turn over cars, loot the liquor stores and rape, pillage and plunder all the way there. My source is reliable.

Binos are the de-vil (as in the fru-its of the the de-vil)

Ban all foam and pencils on 3d courses!!! We'll stake out live animals and measure success by the length of the blood trail!

While were at it, ban Paper @ dot shoots and penicillin @ hospitals!

Maybe the chinese have it right. Only the highly educated should be able to vote and internet access should be severely restricted. 

Sorry but the satire seemed appropriate at the moment.



Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Boomfer said:


> Using binos makes a huge difference. Seeing where the paint lines are, checking lighting and shadows, evaluating target angle and much more. They really do make a very big difference. If you ban all binos, I can guarantee you would see some drop in numbers of shooters.


I am not advocating a rule change, but just curious why if the playing field was level...NO BINOCS...why would you see a drop in shooters? Might ADD some....the guys that can't afford really nice binocs. Again, I don't want to see a rule change, but the rules need to be enforced...strongly.


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

I have been reading through this thread since it was started yesterday. I find it interesting to see how many posters want to justify the cheating and giving a lessened penalty because "everyone does it." Fact is that not everyone does it. I for one don't do it. In fact I have been known to have my score changed after the cards have been turned in because they were added wrong or the wrong score was marked down for a target. It has cost me the win on more then one ocassion also. I feel that when I go out there and shoot I ma mainly shooting against my previous score. If I cheat then I cheat against myself. Yes the score is put up against others but in the long run I cheat myself. A buckle or even a million dollars is not worth cheating my integrity. 

If it is finalized that he cheated knowingly then he need to be punished according to the rules and what the punishment should be. Another concern of mine is what is his example showing the next generation of archery competitors. I read another thread that said there were a couple youth shooters that got caught cheating and were only docked 10 points and they still placed. If the penalty doesn't fit the infraction then we send the single it is ok to cheat, even when you get caught because in the long run you still will win. We need to send a better message then that to the new generation. The youth cheated also need a more severe penalty along with MV.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Mahly said:


> I am not advocating a rule change, but just curious why if the playing field was level...NO BINOCS...why would you see a drop in shooters? Might ADD some....the guys that can't afford really nice binocs. Again, I don't want to see a rule change, but the rules need to be enforced...strongly.


Yes, the rules need to be enforced. But that is the extent of it and I've never seen anything in the rules that addresses more than DQ for the tourney on question. Maybe there is more but I'm unaware of it. Maybe more is needed but it would have to be in the future, not for an offense committed previously. Can't change the law for convenience to enforce against a crime.

In this case, just living after this "trial" of public opinion is going to be one heck of a punishment. Would you be man enough to go face your prior peers and competitors at the next one?...much less compete well.

The only thing that might benefit from a bino ban in 3d is field archery. Binos level the playing field, not spread it and "really nice" binos are not required. If a man can't afford something decent, he probably isn't traveling and competing anyway.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## bmhuntin (Sep 14, 2005)

I know Michael and would have never expected this of him. As all have stated, he seems like a really nice guy. I have shot with and against him in the local shoots and I will say, he is one heck of a shot. He didn't need to do this to win some of the tournaments, but I guess he was greedy enough that he wanted to win them all. There is no forgiving what he did......the premeditation makes it inexcusible and he should be punished severely.

I do want to get one thing clear. Although Michael is from Vicksburg, MS, he is not associated in any way with the Vicksburg Bowhunters Assocation.....he isn't even a member. He does show up and shoot the local events but that is the end of his association with the Vicksburg Bowhunters Assn. And yes we are hosting the State ASA event and this should in now way affect that shoot.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

nilrednuas said:


> Maybe murderers should get a free pass for a first offense too. That will teach them not to do it again.


You are comparing a murderer to a guy that cheated to figure out the distance in a 3d shoot?? I'm not condoning cheating, but don't you think that's a bit overboard? If the guy has truly apologized for what he has done..then he should be given a second chance in good time. If there is no forgiveness for wrong doing we would all be screwed. I would rather shepherd than slay someone who has lost their way. If he is forgiven and does it again, then he should be done. Definitely not allowed to participate for at least a year though. Hope he confesses and owns up to the wrong.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

bmhuntin said:


> I know Michael and would have never expected this of him. As all have stated, he seems like a really nice guy. I have shot with and against him in the local shoots and I will say, he is one heck of a shot. He didn't need to do this to win some of the tournaments, but I guess he was greedy enough that he wanted to win them all. There is no forgiving what he did......the premeditation makes it inexcusible and he should be punished severely.
> 
> I do want to get one thing clear. Although Michael is from Vicksburg, MS, he is not associated in any way with the Vicksburg Bowhunters Assocation.....he isn't even a member. He does show up and shoot the local events but that is the end of his association with the Vicksburg Bowhunters Assn. And yes we are hosting the State ASA event and this should in now way affect that shoot.


None of us are assc. anyone from Mississippi. Brian Stokes and young man that won semi. This should never be reflection the state. Every state has a cheater in it. Lord knows Oklahoma has are share we do are best to police them. I miss the Hattisburg shoot.
DB


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

SHPoet said:


> Maybe he had the ranging binos in the same case with Alpens and label fell off the Alpens and stuck to the range finders? When he picked them up he thought he had the regular Alpens....
> 
> The previous line was promoted by Sarcasma.
> https://msmvps.com/blogs/brianmadsen/archive/2008/05/01/a-new-drug-is-out-there-sarcasma.aspx


And maybe, just maybe, the Italian cruise ship captain slipped and fell in to that lifeboat


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

After reading all 7 pages of this post Ive only seen one comment by tooltech Post #143 about fixing the major concern of cheating.....I dont shoot 3d cuz I'm lousy at judgeing yardage but I'm sure I would shoot a bunch of it if it were marked yardage...Im also not sure if they have a class that would let people like me that just want to shoot use a rangefinder....just let everyone use a rangefinder and there would not be problems...or mark the yardage....everyone would be on level ground......now as far a pencil pushers go?????


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I just heard from a reliable source that:
> 
> DB shot Trayvon.
> 
> ...



Complete lie! Madoff was _my _assistant!?!? :heh: 

Talk about a guy that could schmooze people. You have to admit he was good.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> Complete lie! Madoff was _my _assistant!?!? :heh:
> 
> Talk about a guy that could schmooze people. You have to admit he was good.


But I think Bernie took the online classes on shmoozing from someONE.....:wink::tongue:


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## CamoCop (May 19, 2009)

there is a simple solution that not everyone will agree on. there needs to be a rule against using optics period. if you are unsure where the scoring rings are on a specific 3d target, than you need to do your homework and research it prior to the event. this may suck for alot of people but it would ensure a fair contest for everyone. this day in age with all the new technology out, it is being made easier to cheat and get away with it. maybe in tournament situations the ranges could post a picture of that specific target with the scoring rings outlined so everyone has the same advantage and no one has the ability to cheat with range finding optics.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

CamoCop said:


> there is a simple solution that not everyone will agree on. there needs to be a rule against using optics period. if you are unsure where the scoring rings are on a specific 3d target, than you need to do your homework and research it prior to the event. this may suck for alot of people but it would ensure a fair contest for everyone. this day in age with all the new technology out, it is being made easier to cheat and get away with it. maybe in tournament situations the ranges could post a picture of that specific target with the scoring rings outlined so everyone has the same advantage and no one has the ability to cheat with range finding optics.


For what a 3D target costs it _should_ come with a sign with the rings on it that you could post at the stake. And a nice watch


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## TOOL (Apr 11, 2006)

Great read. But I'm somewhat surprised by all the "liberal" thinking going on in this thread. One guy cheats, so lets modify the game for everyone else. "Down with binos!" Hahaha. The game does not need more rules. The rules are there. There needs to be enforcement (which there has been thus far) and discouraging consequences. 

As for what he is probably feeling right now: An unscrupulous person rarely feels the effects of a moral conscience. The next step for a dishonest person who has just been caught, is to connive a way to lessen the brunt and absolve himself of any wrong doing. How he handles this will certainly be interesting.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

This post was a great read....I learned there is a class for rangefinders...k45 & k50....now do all the 3d shoot have these classes??


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

All of you could always start shooting spots.:wink:


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Down with binos?? probably not. Down with RANGEFINDING binos?? you bet. In my opinion they dont belong on the course, period. If the ASA wants to enforce it's rules, then it needs to MODIFY the rangefinder rule to include the prohibition of binoculars with rangefinding capability, and not just allowing them to be used if the batteries are removed. That doesnt involve adding any "new" rules... just slightly modifying and enforcing what's already on the books. 



TOOL said:


> Great read. But I'm somewhat surprised by all the "liberal" thinking going on in this thread. One guy cheats, so lets modify the game for everyone else. "Down with binos!" Hahaha. The game does not need more rules. The rules are there. There needs to be enforcement (which there has been thus far) and discouraging consequences.
> 
> As for what he is probably feeling right now: An unscrupulous person rarely feels the effects of a moral conscience. The next step for a dishonest person who has just been caught, is to connive a way to lessen the brunt and absolve himself of any wrong doing. How he handles this will certainly be interesting.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

CamoCop said:


> there is a simple solution that not everyone will agree on. there needs to be a rule against using optics period. if you are unsure where the scoring rings are on a specific 3d target, than you need to do your homework and research it prior to the event. this may suck for alot of people but it would ensure a fair contest for everyone. this day in age with all the new technology out, it is being made easier to cheat and get away with it. maybe in tournament situations the ranges could post a picture of that specific target with the scoring rings outlined so everyone has the same advantage and no one has the ability to cheat with range finding optics.


So, would this include lenses in your scope and clarifiers in your peep? Just for the record, I had to have major eye surgery due to a work related injury ( I got blown up). My right eye was almost lost. Now for me to shoot at the level I'm at I have to shoot a 6x lens and a clarifier. If you ban binos, this would give me an advantage. That would be punishing everybody that did nothing wrong and choose to not use a lens. Ok, ban the lenses too! That's another stupid idea. That would be punishing people like me with less that perfect eye sight for something one ******* did. Banning binos is NOT the answer. Enforcing the rules is the answer.


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## fariss (May 15, 2010)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> huh???


Not that I hate he got caught but that he thought he needed to cheat to win. A cheater never needs to win which he never does.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

carlosii said:


> speaking of ripping off your fellow archers, vincent didn't get us for near as much as the folks from tournament archer magazine... i doubt if they'll ever show up at another ASA/IBO event either.


 What do you mean by that? I'm clueless.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

I am not sure how shooters are paired but if shooters were randomly paired and it was a rule that all shooters in each group must check each archers binos for legality it would only take about 5 minutes per group. Based on what I have read if one of the shooters in the alleged offenders group would have looked through the binos it would have been obvious that they were ranging binos.


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

3-D Junkie said:


> What do you mean by that? I'm clueless.


Not the place for that. Do a search


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

-bowfreak- said:


> I am not sure how shooters are paired but if shooters were randomly paired and it was a rule that all shooters in each group must check each archers binos for legality it would only take about 5 minutes per group. Based on what I have read if one of the shooters in the alleged offenders group would have looked through the binos it would have been obvious that they were ranging binos.


ASA is understaffed to be able to check each and every piece of equipment that comes out on a range. That is why it is up to the shooters to police themselves.You do not inspect their equipment. But, if you see something that you know is not right or suspicous, it is up to you to report it.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

asa1485 said:


> ASA is understaffed to be able to check each and every piece of equipment that comes out on a range. That is why it is up to the shooters to police themselves.You do not inspect their equipment. But, if you see something that you know is not right or suspicous, it is up to you to report it.


And THAT is exactly why it doesnt work, and won't work. As long as the ASA relies on people to "police themselves", with no requirements for checking of equipment, crap like this is going to take place. Honestly, it makes you wonder how many OTHER guys get away with it and just havent been caught yet.


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## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

If true, how in the world didn't someone notice the type of bino's he was using, and realize they are also a rangefinder. 

If true, kick him out for the rest of the year. A lifetime ban would be kinda harsh IMHO


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## Jaron Anderson (Aug 5, 2010)

rick prather said:


> ample means enough. there is not enough punishment for this!!!!!!!!


You act like this is a murder trial....


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

hansel said:


> If true, how in the world didn't someone notice the type of bino's he was using, and realize they are also a rangefinder.
> 
> If true, kick him out for the rest of the year. A lifetime ban would be kinda harsh IMHO


If you read the original post he had modified the labeling on the unit so it looked like a non-rangefinder setup.


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## ba3darcher (Jan 13, 2005)

What is wrong with each group before starting exchange binos take a look and then give back to the owner, really simple and would be a simple if each shooter in the group would have a chance to look thru them, there would then be no questions. This would be policing ourselves as outlined in the ASA ruless. taking away the use of binos is crazy.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

The rules state that unsportsmanlike conduct will disqualify the shooter from the event and if there is a second infraction the shooter will be disqualified for the remainder of the year. The way I understand it Michael Vincent has been punished already.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

ba3darcher said:


> What is wrong with each group before starting exchange binos take a look and then give back to the owner, really simple and would be a simple if each shooter in the group would have a chance to look thru them, there would then be no questions. This would be policing ourselves so to speak. just my .02.


Yep. Quick and simple.

I'd also like to see an official pick the arrow from their quiver to use for the speed test.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

ba3darcher said:


> What is wrong with each group before starting exchange binos take a look and then give back to the owner, really simple and would be a simple if each shooter in the group would have a chance to look thru them, there would then be no questions. This would be policing ourselves so to speak. just my .02.


Far to simple and easy! I totally agree. 

DB


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

I would think after this mess nobody will dare even try to do it again. Everyone will be watching from now on.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Michael was disqualified for having rangefinders, not for using them.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm hearing the only punishment will be His Sunday round won't be counted..! Are You kidding Me, The ASA is gonna have to do better than that..!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

ABTABB said:


> I'm hearing the only punishment will be His Sunday round won't be counted..! Are You kidding Me, The ASA is gonna have to do better than that..!


Do better than follow their own rules?

If they make rules up as they go, itd be no better than the infraction.



Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SHPoet said:


> Yep. Quick and simple.
> 
> I'd also like to see an official pick the arrow from their quiver to use for the speed test.


When I got checked last year in Augusta that is exactly what they did......


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

ABTABB said:


> I'm hearing the only punishment will be His Sunday round won't be counted..! Are You kidding Me, The ASA is gonna have to do better than that..!


What else could they do? There is not much else in the rules that they could have done.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

ABTABB said:


> I'm hearing the only punishment will be His Sunday round won't be counted..! Are You kidding Me, The ASA is gonna have to do better than that..!


I hope you have been misinformed. How did AT get so many idiots? Ive noticed there are many off the wall comments by people who don't shoot Asa regarding banning binos . What a joke . Nikon and Alpen have invested a lot of money to help archers, kinda dumb to chase sponsors away .


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

How about this? Asking someone to see their bino's would possibly make some people defensive and create tension on what should be a good day. So I am going to get with the group, and in front of everyone, offer my bino's to another person in the group to look over, and I will explain why I do this. It may motivate others to do the same and may spread to be common courtesy. If a bunch of people did that and it became common to do so, the ASA would not have to change the rules.
I would think that anyone who would not offer up their bino's may have something to hide.

And to those that are against banning him, just remember this............ Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Has anyone considered how much contingency money he has stolen from manufacturers that sponsor him?


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> Do better than follow their own rules?
> 
> If they make rules up as they go, itd be no better than the infraction.
> Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


What Rule are You referring to.?


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## AUSSIEDUDE (Apr 17, 2009)

Cheating is the sign of a very low individual but cheating for money must surely come under the heading of fraud. If I came second to someone that had cheated and it cost me money I would be asking for what is rightfully mine.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

ABTABB said:


> What Rule are You referring to.?


Read post # 208


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

J Whittington said:


> I hope you have been misinformed. How did AT get so many idiots? Ive noticed there are many off the wall comments by people who don't shoot Asa regarding banning binos . What a joke . Nikon and Alpen have invested a lot of money to help archers, kinda dumb to chase sponsors away .


Any bino that has RANGEFINDING capability NEEDS to be banned in competition for classes that dont allow rangefinders, plain and simple. If that had been the case to begin with, this whole thing would be a non existent point.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Jhorne said:


> Michael was disqualified for having rangefinders, not for using them.


Oh come on, get REAL. he had them, they were functioning, and he was apparently doing everything in his power to hide them... and you HONESTLY believe he wasnt using them? 

Even if he wasnt using them, he still broke the rules by having them in working order while on the course.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> Oh come on, get REAL. he had them, they were functioning, and he was apparently doing everything in his power to hide them... and you HONESTLY believe he wasnt using them?
> 
> Even if he wasnt using them, he still broke the rules by having them in working order while on the course.


I am real. Call ASA and see what he was disqualified for.


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## rs3711 (May 1, 2008)

I copied and pasted this right off the ASA web site: Any incident of unsportsmanlike conduct will be reported to a tournament official who will file a report with the Competition Committee immediately following the completion of the day’s competition. The first offense upheld by the Committee will result in disqualification of the shooter from the event. A second offense will result in a suspension for the remainder of the season with no refund of any entry fees already paid.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> Any bino that has RANGEFINDING capability NEEDS to be banned in competition for classes that dont allow rangefinders, plain and simple. If that had been the case to begin with, this whole thing would be a non existent point.


It is against the rules to even have a rangefinder in your stool if you are on an unknown range, what he did is already against the rules.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

batteries or no batteries, range finders of any type should not be on the range.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

reylamb said:


> It is against the rules to even have a rangefinder in your stool if you are on an unknown range, what he did is already against the rules.


Yes, a RANGEFINDER is against the rules, but from what I have read, binoculars that have rangefinders built in to them have been allowed, as long as the batteries were removed to make the rangefinder inoperative. it's way too easy to conceal a set of batteries, so the only REAL way to make it fair is to include rangefinding binoculars in the same rules as stand alone rangefinders... something that is not currently done.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

jimb said:


> batteries or no batteries, range finders of any type should not be on the range.


agree 100%, unless it's a class that allows their use.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Participant Agreement: ASA Pro/Am events are sanctioned sporting events governed by rules. The ASA Tournament Director and Competition Committee shall settle all disputes, and all decisions will be final and without legal appeal. *ASA reserves the right to restrict or deny entry into any event by any individual*, and / or to designate their competitive class.

Then this Rule could be enforced as well...


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## skye5317 (Feb 28, 2009)

I can see how it would be hard and costly to have an official check each shooters equipment before they shoot. Could they not set the course up so that the shooters have to stop and turn the scores in before they go to their vehicles and put their equipment away? That way if the shooters scores were high enough for them to place they would have to submit the equipment for inspection and chronographing If their score was to low to place them they wouldn't have to be checked. This should cut down the amount of equipment to be checked to a very manageable level.


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## 3d1 (Mar 18, 2006)

SHPoet said:


> There really is no " integrity of the course" any more. 3D used to be practice for hunting and a fun day out with friends.
> 
> It's an archery competition now days, nothing more nothing less.


Yes it is that's why they have the hunter class.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

The more "suggestions" come from the inexperienced..... The better I realize that the ASA is run.

Let me highlight a few std features of an ASA shoot:

Groups are randomly assigned.

Shotgun start times. Target assigned.

Multiple score keepers per group.

Cards turned in @ range entrance.

Officials on every range.

Chrono check for top scores before leaving.


If you think IBO is doing better @ preventing cheating, you've lost your minds.



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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Yawn...nothing more to see here folks...move along...


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## Edsel (Oct 1, 2011)

Imagine: A mandatory cavity search for batteries.


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

The ASA and shooters at an asa do a great job policing the shoot. What about all the pin shooters who range with pins, what about all the guys who draw then let down multiple times on the same target and you know they are ranging. It happens. He (MV) was caught. The asa will enforce what ever the competition committee decides. Its hard enough to shoot a course, even on the known day of my class I dont use my rangefinder it tends to confuse me. I look at the known card and usually another member has a set of Nikon or Leupold Dna rangefinders to verify the card. But I try to judge before looking at the card. The groups are random so unlike the IBO there is no buddys in groups. Two score cards for each shooter, the list goes on. The binos help to pick your spot and to decide angle and quarter. If you have never shot a national ASA event you need to try one out so you can see just how regulated they are compared to an IBO. 
He has lost the respect of many of his peers, a public apology and forfeiture of winnings and plaques on his part without any prompting from the governing body would probably mean more to his peer. group than anything the ASA sanctions could ever mean. Its up to him at this point to choose his future fate and future reputation. None of us that werent there really know the entire truth or circumstance. Lets see what he does or doesn't do. The respect he has lost will probably never be regained and all he does will be sespect reguardless of what he does but his integrity may mean somthing to him.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> And THAT is exactly why it doesnt work, and won't work. As long as the ASA relies on people to "police themselves", with no requirements for checking of equipment, crap like this is going to take place. Honestly, it makes you wonder how many OTHER guys get away with it and just havent been caught yet.


 I believe the self policing did work in this case. It would appear that the range official checked the binos based on information received from another competitor. He obviously was not not caught the first time he did this but he was in the end caught by self policing.


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## CamoCop (May 19, 2009)

buttspanker said:


> So, would this include lenses in your scope and clarifiers in your peep? Just for the record, I had to have major eye surgery due to a work related injury ( I got blown up). My right eye was almost lost. Now for me to shoot at the level I'm at I have to shoot a 6x lens and a clarifier. If you ban binos, this would give me an advantage. That would be punishing everybody that did nothing wrong and choose to not use a lens. Ok, ban the lenses too! That's another stupid idea. That would be punishing people like me with less that perfect eye sight for something one ******* did. Banning binos is NOT the answer. Enforcing the rules is the answer.


um...in short, yes. IMO scopes and clarifiers don't belong in archery, they belong on rifles. archery is for up close and personal, you want to shoot 70+ yards....buy a gun. i'm sorry for your handicap from your accident but we have to draw the line somewhere. would it be fair for John Q. Public to use a crossbow at your tournament because he has a bad shoulder?


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

3d1 said:


> Yes it is that's why they have the hunter class.


So everyone in that class only uses things they would hunt with?


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

Your right on with the self policing someone had to say something .I have shot a ton of ASA shoots and you always have an eye out for something out of the ordinary.If he was doing as stated putting them back in his stool and covering them up every time ,that would be a huge red flag .The do sometime pick the arrow for you to shoot trough the crono .The ASA runs great shoots dont let it stop you from shooting one .Just last year they caught a pro ranging a range he was going to shoot on ,so things do happen and some even get caught doing it .


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

I agree with posts that stat their should not be any range finder includeing ones that are in bino's batteries or not they should not be allowed on the tournament unless that class allow the use of them.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks Tmorelli now I have to go exhume a body



tmorelli said:


> I just heard from a reliable source that:
> 
> DB shot Trayvon.
> 
> ...


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

Up close and personal. LOL! Does ASA not have a crossbow class? Camocop, they have a class for you too. Up close and personal with limited gear. It's called bow hunter. Lol. they also have traditional classes for you too in case you feel release aids and eccentrics don't belong in the sport. Sorry, but we need people who promote the sport of archery not one to bring it down.

Cheaters are in every sport. Punish him and move on. A life time ban seems a bit much to me.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> Thanks Tmorelli now I have to go exhume a body


No prob. 

I thought the tone around here needed a little change and you seemed like the perfect innocent bystander for my sarcasm.

The AT lynch mob triggers are just a little light for my taste as of late. Wait, that's not just "as of late" I guess.



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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

ABTABB said:


> Participant Agreement: ASA Pro/Am events are sanctioned sporting events governed by rules. The ASA Tournament Director and Competition Committee shall settle all disputes, and all decisions will be final and without legal appeal. *ASA reserves the right to restrict or deny entry into any event by any individual*, and / or to designate their competitive class.
> 
> Then this Rule could be enforced as well...



BOOYAH.... What ^^^^ said plain an simple... I cant believe so many people on here act like this is no big deal.. This is straight up stealing from good people.. Thats all there is too it...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> No prob.
> 
> I thought the tone around here needed a little change and you seemed like the perfect innocent bystander for my sarcasm.
> 
> ...


You seem to condone this behavior. I would diffiantly be getting this from your post on this subject if I didnt know you.

You act like we should just sweep it under the rug which may just happen and then you might get your wish. I would think your defending him and think it all a misunderstanding. Some that were there in his group and on the course all got it figured out very clearly.
DB

I couldnt post what some his peers in his class and conveyed to me today. You think this is a lynch mob. 
DB


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

CamoCop said:


> um...in short, yes. IMO scopes and clarifiers don't belong in archery, they belong on rifles. archery is for up close and personal, you want to shoot 70+ yards....buy a gun. i'm sorry for your handicap from your accident but we have to draw the line somewhere. would it be fair for John Q. Public to use a crossbow at your tournament because he has a bad shoulder?


There are crossbow classes so yes it would be fair to us a crossbow. There are many different classes some of which allow scopes and lenses. If you are not an advocate of scopes and clarifiers then go shoot the hunter class.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Sentinalonfire said:


> BOOYAH.... What ^^^^ said plain an simple... I cant believe so many people on here act like this is no big deal.. This is straight up stealing from good people.. Thats all there is too it...


Totally agree! Matt you and many in the semis diffiantly understand and are mad as one could be. Someone lost and no telling how long it been going on. They were robbed.
DB


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Jhorne said:


> Michael was disqualified for having rangefinders, not for using them.


He is a liar and a cheat. Next


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> The more "suggestions" come from the inexperienced..... The better I realize that the ASA is run.
> 
> Let me highlight a few std features of an ASA shoot:
> 
> ...


I won a couple shoots in 2009-10 an not once was i chronoed so im not sure where ur getting ur info from on this?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Sentinalonfire said:


> I won a couple shoots in 2009-10 an not once was i chronoed so im not sure where ur getting ur info from on this?


I haven't been chrono'd this year or last but I thought it was because I was shooting known. Maybe they don't do it all the time for any class? Back in "the day" I got chrono'd regularly.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

My biggest gripe with the punishment is in theory, Someone caught stepping off a target after He shoots gets the same punishment as a Semi-Pro that is ranging every target with RF Binos, that He intentionaly disguised and kept hidden in His chair, for who knows how long... I'm sorry but some things just require common sense, and Yes sometimes rules need to be altered...

The Rules state the ASA has the right to refuse Anyone from competing... I think They should exercise this option, given the severity of His actions... I'm a Lifetime Member and have always supported the ASA 100%, but this has Me questioning Their stance on Fair Competition... I'm pretty sure the Rules were altered in IL, last year after the rain cancelled the 2nd round for some, and rightfully so...


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

Maybe a "tech inspection" at the end of competition like is done at most auto races.....the top finishing shooters in each class (the top 3 to 5 shooters or where ever the payout ends) are all required to go to an equipment inspection upon exiting the course where _all_ of there equipment is inspected for conformation to the rules. (At most local tracks they also pull a couple of random competitors). 

Instead of checking several hundred sets of binos you would be checking just the top shooters.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> You seem to condone this behavior. I would diffiantly be getting this from your post on this subject if I didnt know you.
> 
> You act like we should just sweep it under the rug which may just happen and then you might get your wish. I would think your defending him and think it all a misunderstanding. Some that were there in his group and on the course all got it figured out very clearly.
> DB
> ...


I'm ok with that DB except the "wish to sweep it under a rug part". Maybe I've given a tone that I'd like to see the sport move on and leave the addressing to the right people. Otherwise, the people that matter know I don't support behavior like he's accused of. I also know it might not look like it when comparing my internet visible position amongst the others in this crowd but even if the time comes to call for his head, in principal I believe he'll deserve an opportunity to earn it back. What he does from there is up to him.

It doesn't matter who it is, I want to hear the facts first (and I agree that many compelling points and arguments have been made) but I'm going to call BS when I see unqualified people pile in for judgment and that is the vast majority of the crowd here. Only a few of these people have real knowledge of the situation and those are the ones I'd tend to side with. Its the balance who are only making assumptions based solely on what they've read here that I won't support in condemning a man they don't know based on things they can't know for sure. This is AT and its full of human nature (read alterior motives and personal agenda) and no one here is under oath.

I will also say that it is disappointing that we haven't seen him tell his side (whether its an I'm an idiot story or an apology or something else I can't imagine?).

In any case, this isn't a trial to be based on public opinion. It is for the ASA officials to decide and for us to support. 

We both know that the real punishment will be having to face his peers again should he choose to. 


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

You can use a lense in hunter, its novice that no lense is allowed.


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## AUSSIEDUDE (Apr 17, 2009)

Being someone that believes a rule is a rule and everyone should have to play by the same rules I find it strange that anyone could condone in even the smallest way anyone that cheats. I for one would stand behind my morals and never compete with anyone who has been caught intentionally cheating. The consequences of cheating should be enough to prevent it, a slap on the wrist is not enough.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I'm ok with that DB except the "wish to sweep it under a rug part". Maybe I've given a tone that I'd like to see the sport move on and leave the addressing to the right people. Otherwise, the people that matter know I don't support behavior like he's accused of. I also know it might not look like it when comparing my internet visible position amongst the others in this crowd but even if the time comes to call for his head, in principal I believe he'll deserve an opportunity to earn it back. What he does from there is up to him.
> 
> It doesn't matter who it is, I want to hear the facts first (and I agree that many compelling points and arguments have been made) but I'm going to call BS when I see unqualified people pile in for judgment and that is the vast majority of the crowd here. Only a few of these people have real knowledge of the situation and those are the ones I'd tend to side with. Its the balance who are only making assumptions based solely on what they've read here that I won't support in condemning a man they don't know based on things they can't know for sure. This is AT and its full of human nature (read alterior motives and personal agenda) and no one here is under oath.
> 
> ...


Tony I know for a fact some who were there pm you with facts of what happened that were on the range at the time.

I also got the facts from eye witnesses to this event and how it went down. I have talked to archers who held the rangefinders. 

Some are just calling it what it and not candy coating it. I understand that entirely. 

Im waiting for his buddys to come to his defense and not seeing it happen or him. Only those who have known him for a very short time.

Guy may be a saint but what he did was a black eye on the sport of 3d. Its only cheating at archery event and life goes on. 

But he done more than cheated at one event and took from fellow archers who played by the rules. He getting what he deserves from fellow archers.
DB


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

they get caught cheating in nascar all the time and they still get to race.he needs to be band the rest of the season .


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

tack09 said:


> If he covered up the identifying buttons and labels on the binos, he knew what he was doing. No excuse period.


That says it all right there...was he up front and told everyone right off the bat he had rangefinders..nope...
Were there batteries and was he using the range option...why would you take a chance and bring them on the range if you weren't going to use those features?


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

rick prather said:


> ample means enough. there is not enough punishment for this!!!!!!!!


so an hour in the stocks followed by a public hanging wouldn't be enough.... Cheating in Archery is to easy... as is all sports. I used to play turney paintball in the NPPL and feeder leagues. Those guys were pro's at cheating


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I'm ok with that DB except the "wish to sweep it under a rug part". Maybe I've given a tone that I'd like to see the sport move on and leave the addressing to the right people. Otherwise, the people that matter know I don't support behavior like he's accused of. I also know it might not look like it when comparing my internet visible position amongst the others in this crowd but even if the time comes to call for his head, in principal I believe he'll deserve an opportunity to earn it back. What he does from there is up to him.
> 
> It doesn't matter who it is, I want to hear the facts first (and I agree that many compelling points and arguments have been made) but I'm going to call BS when I see unqualified people pile in for judgment and that is the vast majority of the crowd here. Only a few of these people have real knowledge of the situation and those are the ones I'd tend to side with. Its the balance who are only making assumptions based solely on what they've read here that I won't support in condemning a man they don't know based on things they can't know for sure. This is AT and its full of human nature (read alterior motives and personal agenda) and no one here is under oath.
> 
> ...


tmorelli, 

I started this thread based on facts. I'm not going to mention names of the individuals who were there when all this went down. Facts are facts. The rangfinding binos were disguised and were fully operational. MV did everything in his power to keep them off the radar. I posted this because there are many archers out there like myself who invest lots of time and money into a sport that we love. We travel thousands of miles a year competing and promoting the sport of archery. Competitive archery is a tight knit community which I have had the pleasure of being a part of for many years. It tears me up inside when an individual no matter who it is pulls a stunt like this that is detrimental to the integrity of our sport.


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## Hoyt301 (Jul 24, 2003)

ASA Life member here.
Not sure if I can spend my money with ASA if they don't take care of this cheater like they should.
Ban him for at least a year, I say ban for life.


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## bowgramp59 (Apr 12, 2007)

Hoyt_em said:


> Wow...sad. He is gonna hate
> himself when he realizes how bad he just dumped on the sport...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


he want hate himself for cheating he will hate himself for getting caught! he should be baned from any compatition.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

he needs to be slapped with a lifetime ban if this is all proven true!~


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Tony I know for a fact some who were there pm you with facts of what happened that were on the range at the time.
> 
> I also got the facts from eye witnesses to this event and how it went down. I have talked to archers who held the rangefinders.
> 
> ...


DB, I'll try to go at this one at a time;

1. I haven't gotten any PM's on this but I will say that I got my information from men I'd trust my life with (that were also standing there). If I understand the timeline correctly, I'd just finished on C range when this all went down and was on the way to my 3 year old's b-day party at a high rate of speed. In any other cirumstance, I probably would've seen it myself due to watching my friend who was in his group. That kind of leads to my main point, my "facts" and your "facts" are obviously not the same........see my point? There is a lot of opinion being thrown around on here as fact. 

2. Some may be calling it what they think it is. Some of them might be right. Others are just following suit based on assumptions. I won't back down off that.

3. I never said he was a saint. I did say I'd be very disappointed to learn that he really did this knowlingly based on my conversations with him. I don't know that "only cheating" is strong enough words if it is as bad as it appears especially based on his career path (past and projected) in the sport. It isn't something easily recovered from (for him or the damage to the sport as a whole).

4. We can only assume that this happened at other events too. All I see so far is some people saying "oh, that makes sense now.......I remember........_________" -----that's where I stop listening. People's memories are naturally "revisionist" at best.

I really don't want to argue with you. We are very likely to arrive at the same place, I'm just going to take a different path to it. Now-and-at that time, I'll still keep my opinion to myself though. It isn't my place to judge. Im primarily of the opinion that the plastering of these things all over the internet is as bad for the sport as the act itself.



IRISH_11 said:


> tmorelli,
> 
> I started this thread based on facts. I'm not going to mention names of the individuals who were there when all this went down. Facts are facts. The rangfinding binos were disguised and were fully operational. MV did everything in his power to keep them off the radar. I posted this because there are many archers out there like myself who invest lots of time and money into a sport that we love. We travel thousands of miles a year competing and promoting the sport of archery. Competitive archery is a tight knit community which I have had the pleasure of being a part of for many years. It tears me up inside when an individual no matter who it is pulls a stunt like this that is detrimental to the integrity of our sport.


My opinion about your "facts" is just like I described to DB above. I am not saying that to discredit or demean you or anyone with real experience in this matter in any way. It is just my opinion regarding your opinion and the reason I simply want to encourage people to be slow to judge and a little more willing to forgive. 

I'm also not trying to be a [email protected] here but I really don't need a lecture on the nature, cost (emotional and financial) and lifestyle of competitive archery. I grew up in it. I still live in it. It was a big part of making me "who I am." I understand and appreciate your outlook on the impact of actions like these and I feel similarly regarding the collateral damage to the sport and it's honest competitors........but none of it makes me want to crucify the man. Guilty or not, he's human and deserves a shot at forgiveness and to an opportunity to "pay his debt" and re-earn trust.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Wow this thread needs a 12 step program.


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## Iluvatar (Oct 13, 2006)

Even if the ASA doesn't officially ban him, I doubt he'll been seen at any major event in the near future. He'd sure have to have a lot of nerve to show his face at any shoot anytime soon...


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

Should one loose hos drivers license forever because he gets caught intentionally speeding one time? Would this be YOU? Punishment must fit the crime.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

Dean Lawter said:


> Should one loose hos drivers license forever because he gets caught intentionally speeding one time? Would this be YOU? Punishment must fit the crime.


Should Pete Rose be allowed in the hall of fame? :dontknow:


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

How bout them Cubs!


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## Iluvatar (Oct 13, 2006)

Dean Lawter said:


> Should one loose hos drivers license forever because he gets caught intentionally speeding one time? Would this be YOU? Punishment must fit the crime.


apple and oranges. Speeders are not deliberately taking money out of fellow drivers pockets by speeding. Cheaters in major archery shoots ARE potentially stealing money from their peers


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dean, I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. Should one loose his rights in a free society after he commits capital murder? Loosing the right to compete for an extended period is a punishment that fits the crime and makes the appropriate statement.


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## backwoodsdonkey (Apr 13, 2010)

buttspanker said:


> He's from north west Mississippi. I forgot the name of the town. The Mississippi state championship was going to be at his range. I bet that changes.


He is from Vicksburg Area in Mississippi. The range in Vicksburg is NOT his range. The President is Angie Massey, one of our new womens pro shooters. Michael has absolutely nothing to do with the vicksburg bowhunters range. And the State Championship is still on along with a dual state qualifier with Louisiana. I invite all to come and shoot this new and growing club.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

*FOR SALE: Alpen Optics, Used for a few seasons, like new*

Excellent Optics, "when I get them back", complete with rangefinding capabilities. Just push the Alpen insignia to see range displayed. Bought from a garage sale so no warranties. Price TBD, Paypal accepted TYD lower 48 only. Used for a few seasons only!

Beware of Ads like this!


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

i really think the punishment should be based on how HE responds to the crime. if he OFFERS to pay his winnings to his fellow shooters, OFFERS an apology and OFFERS some kind or resolution (banning himself from use of binoculars). then give him a suspension and allow him to prove himself trustworthy. like this, you write a check and dont make it to the bank to catch it. you apologize, never do it again, pay your fees and pay cash at the place you wrote the check to. you made a mistake. you made it right. however, if you make lame excuses, get defensive, shift the blame ect.. then you dont deserve the right to be put in that situation again. of course, this is all assuming the "facts" are what they are.


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## Blackout CE (Jan 23, 2012)

When i used to shoot IFAA unmarked animal rounds in NZ and Australia there use to be an equipment inspection before the round started.

This was a check of the bow sights and BINOCULARS to make sure they were not range finding.

This was 18 years ago does that no longer happen?


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## badbow148 (Dec 5, 2006)

I golf I always play to beat my best score and archery the same and if I place thats just a bonce.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

fishalaska said:


> excellent optics, "when i get them back", complete with rangefinding capabilities. Just push the alpen insignia to see range displayed. Bought from a garage sale so no warranties. Price tbd, paypal accepted tyd lower 48 only. Used for a few seasons only!
> 
> Beware of ads like this!


lol!!!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

frog gigger said:


> Should Pete Rose be allowed in the hall of fame? :dontknow:


Yes!


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Dean Lawter said:


> Should one loose hos drivers license forever because he gets caught intentionally speeding one time? Would this be YOU? Punishment must fit the crime.


 No not for intentionally speeding one time, but probably if they were speeding away from someone they just ran over.


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I'm ok with that DB except the "wish to sweep it under a rug part". Maybe I've given a tone that I'd like to see the sport move on and leave the addressing to the right people. Otherwise, the people that matter know I don't support behavior like he's accused of. I also know it might not look like it when comparing my internet visible position amongst the others in this crowd but even if the time comes to call for his head, in principal I believe he'll deserve an opportunity to earn it back. What he does from there is up to him.
> 
> It doesn't matter who it is, I want to hear the facts first (and I agree that many compelling points and arguments have been made) but I'm going to call BS when I see unqualified people pile in for judgment and that is the vast majority of the crowd here. Only a few of these people have real knowledge of the situation and those are the ones I'd tend to side with. Its the balance who are only making assumptions based solely on what they've read here that I won't support in condemning a man they don't know based on things they can't know for sure. This is AT and its full of human nature (read alterior motives and personal agenda) and no one here is under oath.
> 
> ...


 What are the facts of the situation? You seem to have some "inside information", since you talked to him for 20-30 minutes in your hotel room. You said that he did have the rangefinding bino's. You said they were functioning. And he obviously used them or else the range officials would never have seen them. His score was DQ'd for it. What else is there to know here? He knew they were not allowed. Hell, people that have never shot a major ASA event know that they are not allowed. Do you expect anyone to believe that someone shooting in semi-pro didn't know. And apparently he tried to hide them, on top of it, so that is a good sign that he knew he would be in serious trouble for it.
Maybe I am "unqualified"? Lets see..... I pay my membership dues, I pay my entry fees, I spend the money to get there, gas hotels, ect., I even spend money as a vendor for my space. I spend this money to be involved in a tournament where there are rules and a sanctioning body that enforces them, and compete against others on a level playing field. When someone intentionally cheats and is allowed to continue to participate in that sport under that sanctioning organization, he has stolen thousands of dollars from me, because I am not getting what I paid for.
When someone steals from me I believe I am qualified to say whatever the hell I want to.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

"We both know that the real punishment will be having to face his peers again should he choose to."
This may be the biggest problem, I know lots of folks that say and do some crazy things in public, then don't have the nerve to show up again. Good, if you can't man up and accept your lumps, don't come back.


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## redirt78 (Feb 2, 2012)

3-D Junkie said:


> What are the facts of the situation? You seem to have some "inside information", since you talked to him for 20-30 minutes in your hotel room. You said that he did have the rangefinding bino's. You said they were functioning. And he obviously used them or else the range officials would never have seen them. His score was DQ'd for it. What else is there to know here? He knew they were not allowed. Hell, people that have never shot a major ASA event know that they are not allowed. Do you expect anyone to believe that someone shooting in semi-pro didn't know. And apparently he tried to hide them, on top of it, so that is a good sign that he knew he would be in serious trouble for it.
> Maybe I am "unqualified"? Lets see..... I pay my membership dues, I pay my entry fees, I spend the money to get there, gas hotels, ect., I even spend money as a vendor for my space. I spend this money to be involved in a tournament where there are rules and a sanctioning body that enforces them, and compete against others on a level playing field. When someone intentionally cheats and is allowed to continue to participate in that sport under that sanctioning organization, he has stolen thousands of dollars from me, because I am not getting what I paid for.
> When someone steals from me I believe I am qualified to say whatever the hell I want to.


I saw some good ones but I think this might be the best post in here, I read them all. I fished inshore tournaments for 8 years and this is exactly how I would feel if someone had been caught using live bait to steal our money and sponsorship opportunities/possibilities. When you put thousands of miles on vehicles, spend thousands of dollars on the gear, hotel, fees, fuel, 12-14 hour days practicing your ass off only to have someone come and take your money and potential sponsorship from you for cheating... You have every right to be pissed off.

He has no excuse and should be banned for some amount of time. I guess no one can prove how long this had been going on so you can't really draw a line on how much money he should have to give back. He has to be punished and not just morally or verbally. He needs to take a forced break from competitive archery. I hope no one is seriously dense enough to think he just used his Alpen disguised Zeiss rangefinding binoculars because that's all he could come up with and wasn't cheating with them.


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## ivor darcy (Feb 24, 2009)

I have read all the posts here before making a comment. I do not shoot 3d, don't know the rules or the punishment for breaking those rules. However, if the rules say that a first offense for cheating is that he is disqualified from that shoot then that SHOULD be the end of the matter. Yes, who knows how many times ( if any..no proof ) he cheated prior to getting caught but you cannot expect him to pay back monies he may have rightfully won at previous shoots ( again..no proof he cheated before this instance ).
If it were ME who cheated, I would not have the nerve to show my face at ANY shoot even if I had offered profuse apologies to all concerned and returned my winnings for the year. It is like the boy who cried wolf. Who would ever trust my scores again? 
Should Mr. Vincent get a lifetime ban? Not unless the rules call for it. He shot himself in the foot (pun intended ) and he will forever be known as 'that guy who cheated and got caught'. He will be put under a microscope at any shoot he turns up at. More than likely no-one will ever want to shoot with him. I think he is already being punished. Is it enough? The rules seem to say it is but we all feel that he disrespected, not just the people he cheated at the event he got caught at, the sport itself and needs to be punished severely for it.
Personally, I feel sorry for Mr. Vincent. I think he has ruined his reputation beyond repair and his chance of ever competing at the top level without having a black cloud over his head and an asterisk next to his score ( not an easy thing to live with in my opinion ). Before I get blasted for feeling sorry for Mr. Vincent, yes I do believe he only has himself to blame but I know that I would feel like crap if I had disrespected the sport I love.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

jrdrees said:


> "We both know that the real punishment will be having to face his peers again should he choose to."
> This may be the biggest problem, I know lots of folks that say and do some crazy things in public, then don't have the nerve to show up again. Good, if you can't man up and accept your lumps, don't come back.


I agree but it was said he hung out with vendors after being caught. This tells me he doesnt accept responsibility and will probably be at the next shoot as if nothing happened. Until other shooters start making comments as they walk by him and embarrass him deeper, which more than likely will cause a fight, he will be back. His family will pay the price. I wasnt there and I dont know the dude or the facts around the incident. I am speaking as if anyone who was caught this way and acted this way. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3-D Junkie said:


> What are the facts of the situation? You seem to have some "inside information", since you talked to him for 20-30 minutes in your hotel room. You said that he did have the rangefinding bino's. You said they were functioning. And he obviously used them or else the range officials would never have seen them. His score was DQ'd for it. What else is there to know here? He knew they were not allowed. Hell, people that have never shot a major ASA event know that they are not allowed. Do you expect anyone to believe that someone shooting in semi-pro didn't know. And apparently he tried to hide them, on top of it, so that is a good sign that he knew he would be in serious trouble for it.
> Maybe I am "unqualified"? Lets see..... I pay my membership dues, I pay my entry fees, I spend the money to get there, gas hotels, ect., I even spend money as a vendor for my space. I spend this money to be involved in a tournament where there are rules and a sanctioning body that enforces them, and compete against others on a level playing field. When someone intentionally cheats and is allowed to continue to participate in that sport under that sanctioning organization, he has stolen thousands of dollars from me, because I am not getting what I paid for.
> When someone steals from me I believe I am qualified to say whatever the hell I want to.


Inside information?....I can't decide if I wish I did or if I'm glad I don't. What I have is a sense of skepticism about everything I read and hear......as I stated to DB, I've heard things from people I trust that don't jive with some of what I've read here. As such, I'm not overly compelled to drive to some concrete decision and pass judgement. Why should I? It isn't for me to decide. I trust that ASA will do the right thing to the best of their ability.

I understand your situation (similar to many other competitors, not unlike myself) and I agree that you should be angry.......but not without sensibility. You point out yourself that there is a sanctioning body and rules. For now, I say let the sanctioning body enforce the rules. If you don't like that outcome, petition for the rules to be changed in the future but all the ranting and raving now does nothing good for the situation and only appears discredited/unreasonable.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Babyk said:


> lol!!!


Dont ask to borrow this dudes binos EVER!.....Dude whats the number mean when I push the Alpen insignia? Dont know I bought them at a yard sale! Keep it to yourself.....shhhhh it is our little secret.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

not to play devils advicote, but did not tim gillingham have a problem in vegas a few years back when he was cought moving his sight in a class that did not allow it, receaved a nice AT nickname for it. everyone sooms to have forgotten that How is that any different from this?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Possible Explanations:
- "Look I'm an outstanding christian god fearing man. I would not cheat." Ok, sorry about that..... Wait a minute. If you cheated then you are liar. Bud you have to come on with something better.

- "Hmm, I see what you are saying. I forgot the batteries were in it. I'd NEVER intentionally cheat!" Ranging is such a critical part of 3D that an experienced tournament archer wouldn't make this big of a mistake. You put effort into concealing the identity of the rangefinder and tried to keep them out of sight when they were not in your hands.

- "Ok, this is hard for me to admit but I can't afford binos and a rangefinder for practice judging. So I just bought these for cheap at a yard sale." Seriously? Don't try to tell me you bought them for a couple of hundred dollars! Those Zeiss bino/rangefinders cost over $2000. You know damn well you can buy a nice set of Nikon Monarchs and Nikon rangefinder brand new for well less than a grand.

- "OK, I'm going to come clean. I'm a complete dim wit. All of the above happened. I'm a super christian, broke and trying to provide for my starving family AND help my son enjoy archery. I am weak have sympathy." :spit: :bs:

- "Ok, this is the truth. This was the first time I ever cheated. I swear". Why should we believe you? Just stop blowing smoke up our butts. You are only stacking lies on top of lies. Your momma should have whooped the snot out of you when your were a kid. Maybe you wouldn't have grown up thinking you could BS your way out of anything.


I have some more ideas but I think I've given him enough ideas to work with.


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## TOOL (Apr 11, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> Possible Explanations:
> - "Look I'm an outstanding christian god fearing man. I would not cheat." Ok, sorry about that..... Wait a minute. If you cheated then you are liar. Bud you have to come on with something better.
> 
> - "Hmm, I see what you are saying. I forgot the batteries were in it. I'd NEVER intentionally cheat!" Ranging is such a critical part of 3D that an experienced tournament archer wouldn't make this big of a mistake. You put effort into concealing the identity of the rangefinder and tried to keep them out of sight when they were not in your hands.
> ...



"these are my hunting binos. I disguise them so they won't get stolen. I forgot the batteries were in them."

"They're the only set I have, so I disguised them in order to not raise suspicion. I have never used the RF in competition."

"It was stupid I know, but I forgot my competition binos at home. I had to use something. But I never used the RF."

"I'm sorry, a good Christian man like me should never succumb to weakness. I've disappointed my friends, family, and fellow archers. I've been going through (marital trouble, a drinking problem, financial difficulties, family issues, random scapegoat, etc.)

Whatever you do MV, don't quote me verbatim. 

All joking aside. I feel bad for his son. Something like this is something kids don't need.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Thanks for the glimpse at how you both regard Christianity. I hope one day you cross paths with someone who'll change your opinion.


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

That was manslaughter, this is premeditated murder IMO.


Reed said:


> not to play devils advicote, but did not tim gillingham have a problem in vegas a few years back when he was cought moving his sight in a class that did not allow it, receaved a nice AT nickname for it. everyone sooms to have forgotten that How is that any different from this?


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## nilrednuas (Feb 9, 2012)

I wonder if he is reading this


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

tack09 said:


> That was manslaughter, this is premeditated murder IMO.


how so they both knew the rules and decided to not follow them. In both cases money was on the line. Hell it should be worse for tim as he was a Pro at the time, not just a semi-pro( what ever that is)


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Whoa. It is NOT my view of Christianity!!! I am making fun of someone that has claimed he's a good christian man and not the entire faith!!!!!!! I am a Christian and I know I am more than a little flawed!



tmorelli said:


> Thanks for the glimpse at how you both regard Christianity. I hope one day you cross paths with someone who'll change your opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Thanks for that clarification. 

See the blast radius on this thing is way beyond MV. No good can come from it; there's no archers helping archers in this thread. 

If you (generic "you") want to make a positive difference in our sport, step up and make a difference on the range vs. Cry about it in the aftermath.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

XForce Girl said:


> He needs to be banned for life.
> He probably wouldn't have the guts to return anyway.
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


i don't know about that...word is he was up at the vendors after shooting, cruising around like nothing had happened. some people are blessed with tons of chutzpa, i guess. (i know i spelled chutzpa wrong, but that's my keyboard's fault)


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

hatchettjack said:


> ban all binos, problem solved


if we did that we'd be able to shoot 20 targets in about an hour instead of 4+ hours...where's the fun in that??? :wink:


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

That is my opinion on how the two differ. I think the mistake Tim made (believe me I am not taking up for him) is something that could be an honest mistake. I myself have been quilty of breaking rules ie. accidentily walking in front of the shooting stake, not touching the stake at the shot, glassing from the stake after the shot, to mention a few. What Mr. Vincent did was thought out and planned/premeditated (disguising the binos). I personally look at these two events very differently. Tim should be DQed for his on the spot poor decision. Mr. Vincent on the other hand, should suffer a more severe punishment for his PREMEDITATED CHEATING.


Reed said:


> how so they both knew the rules and decided to not follow them. In both cases money was on the line. Hell it should be worse for tim as he was a Pro at the time, not just a semi-pro( what ever that is)


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> Whoa. It is NOT my view of Christianity!!! I am making fun of someone that has claimed he's a good christian man and not the entire faith!!!!!!! I am a Christian and I know I am more than a little flawed!


Kent even though your shorter than mowed grass,your not nearly as flawed as I am.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

tack09 said:


> That is my opinion on how the two differ. I think the mistake Tim made (believe me I am not taking up for him) is something that could be an honest mistake. I myself have been quilty of breaking rules ie. accidentily walking in front of the shooting stake, not touching the stake at the shot, glassing from the stake after the shot, to mention a few. What Mr. Vincent did was thought out and planned/premeditated (disguising the binos). I personally look at these two events very differently. Tim should be DQed for his on the spot poor decision. Mr. Vincent on the other hand, should suffer a more severe punishment for his PREMEDITATED CHEATING.


ok i can follow that thought process. 

Not knowing what the ASA rules are for how the handle this type of situation( other than reading this thread) since they only found him cheating on sunday that they can prove, they DQ him for that day and he is allowed to shoot future asa shoots. and i think that most on this thread feel that is not harsh enough even though asa is following it's own rules> Does this mean that you all need to put a big pittion together to ask for rule changes with regards to things of this nature or are you all just goingto set back and complain here:wink:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

nwmulie said:


> The checking of the binos could easily be done by competitors. Before the first shot everyone in the group exchanges optics. A qick look over and then you shoot. Just like double score cards, your direct competition will keep you honest.


good idea.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Great idea. We need to start doing this our selves. Without making a rule.


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## BowMadinTN (Jan 2, 2010)

For now, I say let the sanctioning body enforce the rules. If you don't like that outcome, petition for the rules to be changed in the future but all the ranting and raving now does nothing good for the situation and only appears discredited/unreasonable.[/QUOTE]

Well T.Morelli, everyone blasting him are mad,disgusted,etc.. They have the right to express thier opinion just as you have 'cause the dude was STRAIGHT BUSTED! Those shooting in his class feel slighted, ripped off and angry! Discredited/unreasonable? I think not! The guy i shoot with was on that range when they came and got MV's binos. So to all who are expressing thier disgust with this CHEATER, I say BLAST AWAY!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

J Whittington said:


> Kent even though your shorter than mowed grass,your not nearly as flawed as I am.


That's not so bad being that ya'll don't cut your grass in CaroWhina land!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

badbow148 said:


> I golf I always play to beat my best score and archery the same and if I place thats just a bonce.


but there's no footmashie in archery.:angry:


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I cut my on grass thank you very much! I B to po' to pay someone.


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

The way I read the rules, the Competition Committee has the authority to hand down a stiffer penalty. Am I wrong here?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

tack09 said:


> The way I read the rules, the Competition Committee has the authority to hand down a stiffer penalty. Am I wrong here?


It seems that way to me too. -One of the many reasons I'm content to wait and see what they deem fit as punishment.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The sport of 3-D archery certainly doesn't need this black-eye! I haven't a clue about ALL the details, but what could this person have been Thinking? Or, perhaps he wasn't thinking. ALL cheaters get caught sooner or later!

There have been instances in other venues of this "type" of situation...as in cheating....and the bans/suspensions, to my recollection were not "lifetime", so those of you wanting this....don't hold your breath! I would imagine a one year or perhaps two year suspension will come down. Repayment of winnings for prior events might be difficult, since there isn't PROOF that this was done prior to the occurrence in question.
In those few cases I directly remember, the person was "set up" by fellow competitors in advance, because they smelt a rat, and knew something was fishy. They did this by design, so that when it came down, there was no doubt or chance of getting out of it! When the hammer fell, it fell hard, as it should. So, in "some" instances peer enforcement of rules works; in others (time limits) it doesn't necessarily come to fruition....

The embarrassment, humiliiation, and ruination of a reputation are plenty of punishment. Simply knowing that every score you shoot in competition from this point forward is going to be doubted and questioned (openly or just in the thoughts of your competitors) is plenty of punishment. 

Sad day for the 3-D game, and now, I would imagine that everyone is going to pay the price, and all top echelon shooters that get "hot" or shoot a hot score are going to be scrutinized.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

If he does keep shooting, how many of his arrows that are close to the line do you think will be called "out"?


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

He shot a few targets after the dq. Does anyone know how well or how bad he did on those last few targets without the rf?


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> The sport of 3-D archery certainly doesn't need this black-eye! I haven't a clue about ALL the details, but what could this person have been Thinking? Or, perhaps he wasn't thinking. ALL cheaters get caught sooner or later!
> 
> There have been instances in other venues of this "type" of situation...as in cheating....and the bans/suspensions, to my recollection were not "lifetime", so those of you wanting this....don't hold your breath! I would imagine a one year or perhaps two year suspension will come down. Repayment of winnings for prior events might be difficult, since there isn't PROOF that this was done prior to the occurrence in question.
> In those few cases I directly remember, the person was "set up" by fellow competitors in advance, because they smelt a rat, and knew something was fishy. They did this by design, so that when it came down, there was no doubt or chance of getting out of it! When the hammer fell, it fell hard, as it should. So, in "some" instances peer enforcement of rules works; in others (time limits) it doesn't necessarily come to fruition....
> ...


Good points Tom...I really dont understand it myself but I wasnt there and didnt see the details. My question is like yours. What was he and everyone else thinking? If I put a Dodge emblem on my Ford does that mean everyone knows it as a Dodge. It still looks like a Ford so therefore should be considered a Ford. How did he get away with this even for 1 target? Those binos are pretty distinctive even if covered by another brand name, at least the ones I have seen are. Maybe there is more to the story than we know.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bowsrd said:


> He shot a few targets after the dq. Does anyone know how well or how bad he did on those last few targets without the rf?


As I've heard it; he shot a 5 on the next target and then finished with a couple 12's and a 14 or vice/versa.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

He's got some toughness....MOST people would have abandoned the course immediately and not continued on.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bowman991 (Jun 15, 2006)

When money, personal glory, or status is to be garnered...there will always be someone willing to cheat whatever system is in place....Our club is always dealing with pencil pushers....We give away medals for places and all kinds of neat stuff just for attending....We now focus on the kids...setting up a great shoot....having fun.....Seems to be working...

My opinion of cheaters....can't always stop them...but when I catch them.....don't come back...ever!!!!!


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

So here's a thought, I don't know if I like the idea of other competitors calling someone out on cheating during the competition. Unless there are ramifications for the person accusing if he's wrong. I could imagine that you're shooting well and then you get accused of cheating by a guy who is playing head games with you and wants to break your focus. This sport rewards the one who can control his adrenalin and I would think you'd want to shove your stool down his throat if you knew what was going on. I've had people play head games with me when I was only a few targets away from winning and it takes focus to get through it, could you imagine stopping everything to wait on range officials to clear it all up and then pull yourself together to finish a big shoot.


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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

He has some toughness? He's a coward. He hasn't commented at all about this. He's stole from myself and a lot of other true archers. If the Asa or ibo decide to let this clown continue to shoot and be involved in competitions like, shooter of the year, or the overall southern triple crown it is total bull****. He has stole enough from the real archers. If he had the slightest respect for the fellow archers he competes against, he would admit what tournaments he cheated in. But I doubt he will do that. I don't buy his playing dumb story for a second, he's a smart person. He knew what he was doing all along. If he does continue to participate in either organization and go on to win a accumulative title, it means JACK ****. Sorry, the more this goes on the more it pisses me off. The guy who called him out on the binos should get sportsmen of the year. I truly thank him and i just wish somebody had caught him sooner.


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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

buttspanker said:


> If he does keep shooting, how many of his arrows that are close to the line do you think will be called "out"?


Every one because close isn't touching


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

noXcuses said:


> He has some toughness? He's a coward. He hasn't commented at all about this. He's stole from myself and a lot of other true archers. If the Asa or ibo decide to let this clown continue to shoot and be involved in competitions like, shooter of the year, or the overall southern triple crown it is total bull****. He has stole enough from the real archers. If he had the slightest respect for the fellow archers he competes against, he would admit what tournaments he cheated in. But I doubt he will do that. I don't buy his playing dumb story for a second, he's a smart person. He knew what he was doing all along. If he does continue to participate in either organization and go on to win a accumulative title, it means JACK ****. Sorry, the more this goes on the more it pisses me off. The guy who called him out on the binos should get sportsmen of the year. I truly thank him and i just wish somebody had caught him sooner.


I agree he said in one of his previous threads his brothers in archery. Fact he not come forth and even admitted quilt tells me he justified it some how in his mind it was a honest mistake. How do you get caught and head back in to the vendor area like nothing happened. I don't see his buddy's from Mississippi coming forth defending what he done and doubt anyone will. Sporstmen of the year award should be returned for sure.

In my opinion he should have to return the money from Monroe and Corey should announced the winner and get his $1000.00 from Mathews. 

Returning the money won Illegal and sincere apology is the only way he may be able to return to archery. He made a very bad choice and now it time to write an apology to his fellow archers and all he caused to not win.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

shootstraight said:


> So here's a thought, I don't know if I like the idea of other competitors calling someone out on cheating during the competition. Unless there are ramifications for the person accusing if he's wrong. I could imagine that you're shooting well and then you get accused of cheating by a guy who is playing head games with you and wants to break your focus. This sport rewards the one who can control his adrenalin and I would think you'd want to shove your stool down his throat if you knew what was going on. I've had people play head games with me when I was only a few targets away from winning and it takes focus to get through it, could you imagine stopping everything to wait on range officials to clear it all up and then pull yourself together to finish a big shoot.



I hear what you are saying. I would hesitate to say anything during a shoot because it could mess me up. Calling someone out isn't something that would be easy for me to do. What if I'm mistaken? Then I screwed a fellow up and I know that would screw me up.


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## jlh42581 (Oct 21, 2009)

Theres so many times I watch guys shoot and theyre not as great as the numbers they end up with make them out to be. I often wonder if they have their own imaginary score system. I watched a no name group of guys last year best the pros at an asa event 10 up in the bowhunter division. Yeah ok, my ass!

What needs to happen is they need to assign AM teams to Pro Teams via a draw system and then everyone lays everything on their person out for an official to inspect. Its like just giving away your money.


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

The pros shoot a different range than the bow hunter division. There were scores in novice that bested the pros scores. Comparing a pro range to a hunter or novice bowhunter is like comparing a 30 yd known range to a 50 yd unknown range. The reason i used those yardages is because thats what bowhunter and pro shoot, so naturally your gonna have higher scores in the bh class than pro. Believe me I shoot bh and after shooting Saturday in Monroe I walked over to the semi pro range to watch some friends shoot, there was a night and day difference between the two. I believe this is another reason th ASA did away with 14's in bhn.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

FishAlaska said:


> Good points Tom...I really dont understand it myself but I wasnt there and didnt see the details. My question is like yours. What was he and everyone else thinking? If I put a Dodge emblem on my Ford does that mean everyone knows it as a Dodge. It still looks like a Ford so therefore should be considered a Ford. How did he get away with this even for 1 target? Those binos are pretty distinctive even if covered by another brand name, at least the ones I have seen are. Maybe there is more to the story than we know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


I personally saw the binos in question. I could have shot with him for 100 years and I wouldn't have known they were rangefinders. I cannot remember for sure, but I think this picture is similar to what he had. Picture them with camo tape very neatly covering them and where the one button that ranges is, an Alpen sticker. There was also an Alpen logo on the focus knob.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Winner winner,chicken dinner for Darin


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

shootist said:


> I personally saw the binos in question. I could have shot with him for 100 years and I wouldn't have known they were rangefinders. I cannot remember for sure, but I think this picture is similar to what he had. Picture them with camo tape very neatly covering them and where the one button that ranges is, an Alpen sticker. There was also an Alpen logo on the focus knob.


I take your word...those binos are very distictive in shape and design. I guess if you really know binos it would be obvious but to the average user maybe not. I would like to see the actual culprits though.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

"Please be advised that pursuant to ASA Rules the situation that arose in Texas on the semi-pro range regarding range finders has been referred to the Competition Committee for disciplinary review. Upon the completion of their research they will determine what additional sanctions may be imposed. 

We appreciate everyone providing the Competition Committee the time to fully review this and provide the proper disposition.

[email protected]"

that's about as official as it gets.


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

just sad and a kick in the balls for the sport !!


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## fariss (May 15, 2010)

Man I have to eat my words where I spoke good of him. He had me fooled. I still know that he its a great shot. On the other hand I work hard to get where I am in archery. I here a lot of bow clubs here in Ms are banning him from the range. I for one hate it not for him but for his son which loves to shoot and its a good shot.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

shootist said:


> I personally saw the binos in question. I could have shot with him for 100 years and I wouldn't have known they were rangefinders. I cannot remember for sure, but I think this picture is similar to what he had. Picture them with camo tape very neatly covering them and where the one button that ranges is, an Alpen sticker. There was also an Alpen logo on the focus knob.


looks like something you would pick up at a yard sale doesnt it???


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## ajstiff (Feb 20, 2008)

trucker3573 said:


> Geeze 138 posts of the same crap.......someone post a thread when this has been 110% validated and not posted by "someone" we don't know that "has a good source" in Texas..LOL




Administrator
Contributing Member

Posts: 222
ASA Home Office








Range Finder Disqualification In Texas

« on: Today at 03:10:37 PM »



Please be advised that pursuant to ASA Rules the situation that arose in Texas on the semi-pro range regarding range finders has been referred to the Competition Committee for disciplinary review. Upon the completion of their research they will determine what additional sanctions may be imposed. 

We appreciate everyone providing the Competition Committee the time to fully review this and provide the proper disposition.

[email protected] 




Logged


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

3-d buster x4 said:


> just sad and a kick in the balls for the sport !!


You are frustrated....it is ok. This stuff happens all the time at every shoot all over the world. Some will do whatever to make them feel good. This guy got caught. Others will get caught. We.....live to shoot again.

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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

I've talked to two friends of friends of Michael Vincent. He denies using the perfectly disguised binoculars. I hope he can find another garage sale pair that works for him. I'm done with this. His career will always be tarnished


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

noXcuses said:


> I've talked to two friends of friends of Michael Vincent. He denies using the perfectly disguised binoculars. I hope he can find another garage sale pair that works for him. I'm done with this. His career will always be tarnished


He bound to be talking to others about this. I would like to hear his thoughts!
DB


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

noXcuses said:


> I've talked to two friends of friends of Michael Vincent. He denies using the perfectly disguised binoculars. I hope he can find another garage sale pair that works for him. I'm done with this. His career will always be tarnished


I dont see how he can deny it when he purposefully diguised them. Why else would a person do such a thing? I wish he would get on here and explain to us what he was thinking and just admit to his mistake. I would have a hard time doing it too if I were in his shoes but it would eat away at me so much I would eventually have to. I know there are several people on here that want blood but I for one would just like to hear him publicly apoligize. I think he will do more damage to his reputation if he doesnt.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> He bound to be talking to others about this. I would like to hear his thoughts!
> DB


sorry to disagree with you DB, but it wouldn't bother me if i never hear from, or about, him again. what a slime ball...him, not you DB...


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

noXcuses said:


> I've talked to two friends of friends of Michael Vincent. He denies using the perfectly disguised binoculars. I hope he can find another garage sale pair that works for him. I'm done with this. His career will always be tarnished


sounds like he's starting his dis-information campaign. sounds like he was such a two faced con artist that it wouldn't surprise me to see him come on here with some cock and bull story, trying to erase the facts.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

Please be advised that pursuant to ASA Rules the situation that arose in Texas on the semi-pro range regarding range finders has been referred to the Competition Committee for disciplinary review. Upon the completion of their research they will determine what additional sanctions may be imposed. 

We appreciate everyone providing the Competition Committee the time to fully review this and provide the proper disposition.

[email protected] 


This is from the ASA forum...let's see what happens, I am sure Mike will take care of the situation per ASA rules then everyone can settle down.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.










I try not to automatically defualt to thinking the worst about people but we all aknowledge that the evidence and arguments that have been presented against MV are without a doubt alarming at least but as a side note and*right or wrong*....... few of those if any would really stand in a court of law. I'll simply remain of the opinion that I'm glad it's not my decision to make regarding his guilt or intent and I'm equally glad it isn't yours (the AT lynch mob). I hope that those who are responsible, do a thorough investigation and decide wisely vs. simply cave in response to the pressure of the crowd. Then I hope the general public supports them for having done so whether we "like" the outcome or not. As I've already suggested, the alternative might be to riot in the streets or to have the new Klan......I mean the BPP, issue a bounty or Kanye to tweet his home address as being Zimmerman's. Kidding aside, this is a pivotal moment in more than his archery game and it deserves a close look. 

I think of it like this; despite your opinion on the death sentence, it takes a sick man to ever *really* want to be the one to flip the switch on the electric chair. I also carry a concealed pistol most days knowing that I likely wouldn't use it to save my life alone; who am I to say my life is worth more than my offender? Although I would empty it in the protection of my family or some other defenseless person(s) and then suffer the consequences willingly. I'm just weird I suppose. I've also been in leadership roles on many major industrial accident investigations and contractual battles where fraud/corruption was rampant. This case isn't as easy for me to draw a decisive conclusion on as most of those. Along the way, I did learn that if you have your mind made up when you begin, you never really find the truth. Like it or not, human nature is to attempt to substantiate what we already believe, not seek truth or understanding. Scripture gets used out of context all the time due to this.


Next up, a Congressional probe into dual spine, weight forward technology and Bowtech's customer service. :wink:


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

No one will undeniably know whether he pushed the button and ranged the shot, but he did have the capability to do so, which I believe warrants discipline in an event that does not allow it.


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## ccumming (Feb 14, 2012)

He shoots or now probably shot for Pearson. I hope Pearson kicks him to the curb!


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## aggie2000tx (May 3, 2006)

Sorry I just don't buy the whole $25 dollar garage sale zeiss or alpen anything. I must be going to the wrong garage sales.


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

That's the same story he told me while walking off the range. Looks like he is sticking with it. I wish he would come on here and let everyone else see his side, from him and not someone else.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

No one goes from shooting like he was to shooting 9 points better than the PRO winner in Florida. He was 16 points ahead of the closest guy in LA. The guy is a liar and a cheat! That Facebook message was the biggest load of bullcrap Ive ever heard. The best thing he could do would be publicly admit that he used them from when he first got them untill he got caught, instead of playing stupid about it! What a joke. What he did was commit Interstate FRAUD!


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

Plus, what kind of moron would sell ZEISS binos at a freaking yard sale for $25?


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## nimh (Nov 26, 2011)

That is a weak story to say the least. $25 yard sale bino's? This guy's obviously a sick individual. He is so low im actually starting to feel sorry for him.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

What happens if he comes back and still continues to kick butt? Just wondering.


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## cdawg (Feb 12, 2012)

aggie2000tx said:


> Sorry I just don't buy the whole $25 dollar garage sale zeiss or alpen anything. I must be going to the wrong garage sales.


I have no dog in this fight. But I will say one thing. I am a novice 3D shooter and I guarantee you that I know how important a quality pair of binoculars are to competitive shooting. I don't believe for one second that a semi-pro shooter of his caliber would buy a $25 pair of binoculars at a yard sale and end up at big event like Paris without researching them having a THOROUGH knowledge of what they were. Why risk taking an unknown (older/heavier) set of binoculars anywhere?

Even I (a novice) would never do this. I'd want my best stuff at this shoot. Not some "older/heaver" set I purchased at a yard sale.


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

cdawg said:


> I have no dog in this fight. But I will say one thing. I am a novice 3D shooter and I guarantee you that I know how important a quality pair of binoculars are to competitive shooting. I don't believe for one second that a semi-pro shooter of his caliber would buy a $25 pair of binoculars at a yard sale and end up at big event like Paris without researching them having a THOROUGH knowledge of what they were. Why risk taking an unknown (older/heavier) set of binoculars anywhere?
> 
> Even I (a novice) would never do this. I'd want my best stuff at this shoot. Not some "older/heaver" set I purchased at a yard sale.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have disscussed with several who actually held the binos and saw they worked 100%. Wished they would have taken a picture for all to see. The semis that missed podium places and got cheated out of wins are the ones who I truly feel sorry for. There no doubt in anyone mind who saw the biunos it was dont very carefully. Makes me think he had this story already to go if got caught which is often the case with a cheater. 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

buttspanker said:


> No one goes from shooting like he was to shooting 9 points better than the PRO winner in Florida. He was 16 points ahead of the closest guy in LA. The guy is a liar and a cheat! That Facebook message was the biggest load of bullcrap Ive ever heard. The best thing he could do would be publicly admit that he used them from when he first got them untill he got caught, instead of playing stupid about it! What a joke. What he did was commit Interstate FRAUD!


That is no reason to condemn anyone as a cheater. It's the same as the age old argument on here when someone posts a group of 2" at 50 yards. Someone is there to say "no way" and their only basis is "I can't do it so you can't either." We all know that no one takes pictures of their average groups. You've never had a day when you couldn't miss? You've never "got hot"? I have; I shoot well above my average on occasion. You never followed those days up with a "worst shooting of your life" day? I have and I saw a post on fb Sunday from a well known pro who said the same. Sat= worst round of his life. Sun= best round of his life (high score on range). It happens, it just doesnt fit your predetermined mindset.



buttspanker said:


> Plus, what kind of moron would sell ZEISS binos at a freaking yard sale for $25?


The kind that doesnt know what he's got. You've never lucked into a stupid-crazy-awesome deal? I was shooting with a guy a couple days ago that bought a Fox side-by-side shotgun for $60 off a kid that didn't know it was worth $2500.



nimh said:


> That is a weak story to say the least. $25 yard sale bino's? This guy's obviously a sick individual. He is so low im actually starting to feel sorry for him.


Weak story? Yeah, it's way less than ideal but it might just be true.



Jhorne said:


> What happens if he comes back and still continues to kick butt? Just wondering.


Good question. I'd say its within reason that it could happen but unfortunately, it's a long road to anywhere that he wouldn't be accused of cheating to do so.



cdawg said:


> I have no dog in this fight. But I will say one thing. I am a novice 3D shooter and I guarantee you that I know how important a quality pair of binoculars are to competitive shooting. I don't believe for one second that a semi-pro shooter of his caliber would buy a $25 pair of binoculars at a yard sale and end up at big event like Paris without researching them having a THOROUGH knowledge of what they were. Why risk taking an unknown (older/heavier) set of binoculars anywhere?
> 
> Even I (a novice) would never do this. I'd want my best stuff at this shoot. Not some "older/heaver" set I purchased at a yard sale.


You don't have anything that isn't expensive that you consider more than adequate? I'm all about a deal or great value when I see it. I don't need a brand name or model to give me confidence in what I'm using.



aggie2000tx said:


> Sorry I just don't buy the whole $25 dollar garage sale zeiss or alpen anything. I must be going to the wrong garage sales.


Me too.



bowsrd said:


> That's the same story he told me while walking off the range. Looks like he is sticking with it. I wish he would come on here and let everyone else see his side, from him and not someone else.


I hope so too.



My point to the above is that your points are no less arguable than his story. Your points fail miserably at establishing intent. I've never once said he didn't break the rules, he did and we all know that. I've never once said he didn't cheat intentionally or not because I don't know if he did or not and I don't believe that you can say that either without a reasonable doubt. That is the crux of this entire issue- establishing intent. I have and will continue to say that the gen. pop is out of line by condemning him on questionable evidence.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> I have disscussed with several who actually held the binos and saw they worked 100%. Wished they would have taken a picture for all to see. The semis that missed podium places and got cheated out of wins are the ones who I truly feel sorry for. There no doubt in anyone mind who saw the biunos it was dont very carefully. Makes me think he had this story already to go if got caught which is often the case with a cheater.
> DB


You might be absolutely right DB. I wish I had held them myself. It might make the difference in deciding how easy it would've been to miss their ranging capability. I know that I have a pair of my own (similar Leica version) and when I loan them out, people don't know how to use them or understand them without me showing them. Might aren't wrapped in tape or have other stickers over the buttons either. 

In response to your PM, it really isn't my intent to "stand up for" Michael any more than I would any other human being. It is my sole intent to "stand against" the crowd of AT'ers ready to condemn on a case they can't make a good, fair decision about. That's it. I knew the heat and scrutiny I'd bring on myself when I chose to do so. Such is the world we live in.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

Tony, why are you defending this guy? I was on the range, shooting semi pro also. He was a couple targets behind me in the pier grouping. I did see the binos. No one will ever convince me that he believed they were Alpine. The guy is a cheater and a criminal. Why are you defending him?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand exactly what you are saying. But even his response is classic "con man". There is a reason the ASA official checked the bino/rangefinder out. He's only exposing more of who he is by continuing to lie. I wonder if his son recognizes the camo tape as some that was laying around the house. I wonder if his son knows of a pair Alpen binos missing there labels.

Someone needs to let Michael Vincent know this is NOT all about him!! The blue dress is on the table. Then again using the "blue dress" as an example only proves you can get away with lying if you have the stones. Slick Willie is still a sought after and highly paid public figure.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> You might be absolutely right DB. I wish I had held them myself. It might make the difference in deciding how easy it would've been to miss their ranging capability. I know that I have a pair of my own (similar Leica version) and when I loan them out, people don't know how to use them or understand them without me showing them. Might aren't wrapped in tape or have other stickers over the buttons either.
> 
> In response to your PM, it really isn't my intent to "stand up for" Michael any more than I would any other human being. It is my sole intent to "stand against" the crowd of AT'ers ready to condemn on a case they can't make a good, fair decision about. That's it. I knew the heat and scrutiny I'd bring on myself when I chose to do so. Such is the world we live in.


:thumbs_up


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## cdawg (Feb 12, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> You might be absolutely right DB. I wish I had held them myself. It might make the difference in deciding how easy it would've been to miss their ranging capability. I know that I have a pair of my own (similar Leica version) and when I loan them out, people don't know how to use them or understand them without me showing them. Might aren't wrapped in tape or have other stickers over the buttons either.
> 
> In response to your PM, it really isn't my intent to "stand up for" Michael any more than I would any other human being. It is my sole intent to "stand against" the crowd of AT'ers ready to condemn on a case they can't make a good, fair decision about. That's it. I knew the heat and scrutiny I'd bring on myself when I chose to do so. Such is the world we live in.


Very commendable of you to do so. But everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's all these are...opinions. Because you met the guy for 20 minutes you feel compelled to make a stand for him. But I can tell you that I have been fooled by people many, many times upon first meeting them.

He may in fact be a great guy. Probably a good father/husband for all I know. But the fact that a semi-pro shooter had rangefinders on the course, with the button covered up with a sticker is staring me straight in the face, and that carries more weight than some story about a yard sale.

Just a quick question for you? Did you have an opinion on the Casey Anthony murder trial? OJ? Scott Pederson? Of course you did. Bet you even voiced your opinion to others. Could you make a "good, fair decision" based on facts even though you had never met them?


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> That is no reason to condemn anyone as a cheater. It's the same as the age old argument on here when someone posts a group of 2" at 50 yards. Someone is there to say "no way" and their only basis is "I can't do it so you can't either." We all know that no one takes pictures of their average groups. You've never had a day when you couldn't miss? You've never "got hot"? I have; I shoot well above my average on occasion. You never followed those days up with a "worst shooting of your life" day? I have and I saw a post on fb Sunday from a well known pro who said the same. Sat= worst round of his life. Sun= best round of his life (high score on range). It happens, it just doesnt fit your predetermined mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





tmorelli said:


> You might be absolutely right DB. I wish I had held them myself. It might make the difference in deciding how easy it would've been to miss their ranging capability. I know that I have a pair of my own (similar Leica version) and when I loan them out, people don't know how to use them or understand them without me showing them. Might aren't wrapped in tape or have other stickers over the buttons either.
> 
> In response to your PM, it really isn't my intent to "stand up for" Michael any more than I would any other human being. It is my sole intent to "stand against" the crowd of AT'ers ready to condemn on a case they can't make a good, fair decision about. That's it. I knew the heat and scrutiny I'd bring on myself when I chose to do so. Such is the world we live in.


I've only been reading this thread and felt that everything has been said, but after reading all your posts, I feel compelled to comment.

You've defended this character at every turn, no matter what's been said, while bending over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt when this guy is obviously a cheat and a liar. I will NEVER be able to read any of your posts again without the thinking of this thread. You MUST have a horse in this race...spending a half an hour in a hotel room with him, you must know him well. You call anyone that doesn't buy into yours and MV's *B*arbra *S*treisand, a lynch mob, and many other names that are designed to diminish their impact.

I really wasn't completely sure of his "innocence" or guilt, until I read his...supposed...Facebook statement. If a politician got up and used that load of crap to defend him or herself, you'd NEVER buy it, but because he's your buddy, you'll accept tarnishing your own rep. I believe that you've shown your true character in your posts.

My personal opinion is that you're in league with him and part of his misinformation campaign. You both remind my of my boyhood friend, who said that if you're ever caught..."deny, deny, deny". He, like you two, somehow feel that if everyone finally gives up arguing with you, that you've won. This will NOT be the case.

And just like the "innocence" of O.J. Simpson is only in the legal sense, so will MV's, if found "legally" innocent.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

buttspanker said:


> Tony, why are you defending this guy? I was on the range, shooting semi pro also. He was a couple targets behind me in the pier grouping. I did see the binos. No one will ever convince me that he believed they were Alpine. The guy is a cheater and a criminal. Why are you defending him?


I hear you man. I do.......and I respect what the men competing against him have lost if he cheated them out of it. I'm not "sticking up for him" (maybe I just have a hangup on that choice of words?) but I suppose I'm just less ready to convict him than the others. 

Here's the way I see it........I take it step-by-step.

1. Did he break the rules? Yes. Guilty simply by having them in his posession.
2. What is the appropriate punishment for that? According to ASA rules, he should be DQ'd from the competition...AND it can be reviewed by the Competition Committee to determine if further action is needed.

Next and here is where we get into a sticky situation;

3. We can only assume that the Competition Committee will attempt to establish intent and to see if this is an isolated case or carries back further. I would like to think that they would and I hope they do but can fully appreciate what a tough task that is for a bunch of "everyday guys". So, I can't garauntee that they do or really decide if it is even reasonable for us to expect them to.

So, we have an investigation to establish intent and look at historical evidence? If it is "successful" then the punishment should fit the crime (stiffer than the rule above) and if it isn't then the rule above is all that should apply. I'll always be an advocate that any punishment should allow him an opportunity to re-earn the respect of his peers. I would consider a lifetime ban to be less than reasonable and there is no real precident for it in other sports.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

1955 said:


> I've only been reading this thread and felt that everything has been said, but after reading all your posts, I feel compelled to comment.
> 
> You've defended this character at every turn, no matter what's been said, while bending over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt when this guy is obviously a cheat and a liar. I will NEVER be able to read any of your posts again without the thinking of this thread. You MUST have a horse in this race...spending a half an hour in a hotel room with him, you must know him well. You call anyone that doesn't buy into yours and MV's *B*arbra *S*treisand, a lynch mob, and many other names that are designed to diminish their impact.
> 
> ...


Yep, I'm in on it. This is so classic; can I make it my signature?

Like I said to DB, I knew there'd be guys like you out there and I'm still willing to say what I believe. I don't intend to deny you or others the same right but I obivously hope that a reasonable man approach wins out in this case and more important ones like when a man's life is on the line.

If you figure out how to use that ignore button, please PM me with instructions before you hit it. I've seen plenty of your posts in the past that I considered to be unreasonable.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I hear you man. I do.......and I respect what the men competing against him have lost if he cheated them out of it. I'm not "sticking up for him" (maybe I just have a hangup on that choice of words?) but I suppose I'm just less ready to convict him than the others.
> 
> Here's the way I see it........I take it step-by-step.
> 
> ...



Come on Tony, the application of logic and objectivity has no place in the court of public opinion..


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

1955 said:


> I've only been reading this thread and felt that everything has been said, but after reading all your posts, I feel compelled to comment.
> 
> You've defended this character at every turn, no matter what's been said, while bending over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt when this guy is obviously a cheat and a liar. I will NEVER be able to read any of your posts again without the thinking of this thread. You MUST have a horse in this race...spending a half an hour in a hotel room with him, you must know him well. You call anyone that doesn't buy into yours and MV's *B*arbra *S*treisand, a lynch mob, and many other names that are designed to diminish their impact.
> 
> ...


This is incorrect. I have known tmorelli since 1995 or 1996 (I cannot remember) and he does not have a dog in this fight. He just is not convinced that this guy is lying. I feel confident that MV is lying, and perhaps tmorelli and I disagree about that, but they are not in cahoots with all of this.


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## Hoyt Hoyt (Jun 26, 2011)

What is also very funny about this deal is how "Christian" this guy is.....or claims to be, lmao. If I was this guy, I would be afraid to go out of town for a big ASA shoot ever again, someone is bound to loosen his lug nuts at night in the Motel parking lot.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

shootist said:


> This is incorrect. I have known tmorelli since 1995 or 1996 (I cannot remember) and he does not have a dog in this fight. He just is not convinced that this guy is lying. I feel confident that MV is lying, and perhaps "tmorelli" and I disagree about that, but they are not in cahoots with all of this.


I said that this is how I "feel". This is NOT a court of law, we are supposed to be archers helping archers. And maybe he sees that he's helping an archer, but he's NOT helping ARCHERY. When I keep reading this "tmorelli" guy defending this person that he supposedly doesn't know, I SEE A PATTERN. I'm not trying to influence anyone, I was just voicing my opinion about "tmorelli". He must have at least 1/3 of all the posts in this thread defending someone he says that he doesn't know "very well". It sure looks different from my side of the screen. You must know him personally, as you're very careful not to cross him, and I understand this, but even if I knew him personally, I'd still call a spade a spade. 

*I BELIEVE* that he's either covering for MV intentionally, or he's very gullible and has been conned (in 20 minutes), big time!


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

I guess he was being unusually discrete about his binocular use at the shoot.

Most people take them out, set them on their chair and leave them there until they move. I guess he would take them out, use them and stuff them away into the chair again instead of just leaving them out.

Probably caught someones attention this way.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> Yep, I'm in on it. This is so classic; can I make it my signature?
> 
> Like I said to DB, I knew there'd be guys like you out there and I'm still willing to say what I believe. I don't intend to deny you or others the same right *but I obviously hope that a reasonable man approach wins out* in this case and more important ones like when a man's life is on the line.
> 
> If you figure out how to use that ignore button, please PM me with instructions before you hit it. I've seen plenty of your posts in the past that I considered to be unreasonable.


You gotta love this...anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. Very typical how you couch your words to make anyone that feels other than you unreasonable.

When you're proven wrong, I hope you'll make as many posts recanting your written word.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Jhorne said:


> Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


It isn't relevant. So he's a good 3D'er. He works his butt off, he better, comes back and wins. So what, he still cheated. Actually, it would make him look like even more a fool. 

I know his story is going to be that he never pressed the button. In fact it appears that is what he has already started blowing up peoples butts.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

Jhorne said:


> Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


What would we think if he did? Everybody would think he found another way to cheat. That's one of the problems when you get caught. No one ever will believe him again. If he has the testicular fortitude to show up at another national shoot there will be so many people watching him that he would have a VERY hard time cheating. If he shoots great at that tourney, great! It will still never replace the fact that he is a cheater and never repair his reputation. If he shows up at a local tourney that I'm at, and he has, I will request to shoot in his group and watch every move he makes. If he beats me legitamitely, great. It still will not fix all the problems he created. He has single handedly destroyed his integraty. That can never be regained. The entire archery community, with a very few exceptions, will always see him as a cheat, a liar, a fraud, and a thief!!!!


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Jhorne said:


> Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


It wouldn't change a thing IMO, I would just Really wonder why He Cheated and made such a Fool of himself, in the first place..?


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

Jhorne said:


> Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


Its possible he could come back and win without a rangefinder if he is as good of shooter as some say he is. He must be pretty decent because he still had to make the shots even if he did know the yardage. If I were him I wouldnt come back anytime soon.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

1955 said:


> You gotta love this...anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. Very typical how you couch your words to make anyone that feels other than you unreasonable.
> 
> When you're proven wrong, I hope you'll make as many posts recanting your written word.




You need to quit typing and read closer. I didn't say MY approach. I said "_a reasonable man approach_" and I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that you've never heard that term. 

What am I going to be proven wrong of?..........the idea that every man deserves a fair trial?

BTW, I'm not this "tmorelli" guy. My name is Tony Morelli. I live in Newcastle, OK. I grew up in North AL and southern Middle TN. I'm 32 years old. I started shooting when I was 10. I have a wife and two young sons that I love dearly. I have a good job, have always had one since I left college (prior to graduating- No BS here- pun intended). I travel for work and I shoot all over the nation. I've been incredibly blessed at times to the point that I feel guilty for it alone when I see the hand other people get dealt. I've got nothing to hide. There are lots of people on here that know me well- do they all like me? I doubt it. Would any that know me accuse me of BS like you are? Nope.

Do us both a favor and stay over there on the left coast.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

While I will agree that ATer's at times have a lynch mob mentality, that doesn't mean the mob is always wrong.

Let's look at what has been said by people who shot with him. They have stated that he was careful to keep the bino's from view, covering them with a towel.
The bino's were intentionally disguised as another brand. After using the bino's he would cover them so they could not be identified.
He claims to have bought them at a yard sale and didn't realize they were rangefinding bino's. But he still covered them up after every shot.
He posted higher scores than some of the best archers in the world using his $25.00 bino's that he got at a yard sale and found the need to hide after every shot.
He did something blatant enough that one of his competitors alerted and official, who then tested and found to be illegal the bino's that he said that he bought at a yard sale for $25.00 that were altered to look like another brand and that he felt the need to hide after every shot.
This just goes on and on.

A reasonable person would be of the opinion that this guy is a cheater, liar and thief.

This should be turned over to law enforcement.


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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes there is the slightest bit of uncertainty about this. The range official should have confiscated the binos. Checked for fingerprints on the batteries? May seem extreme but That would give us concrete evidence if he knew they were rangefinders. I do however believe because there is a bit of uncertainty that a lifetime ban should not be executed. I think a fair punishment would be this shooting year suspension. Let him come back the next year and prove he can judge and shoot with the rest of us. If his story is true I do feel bad, but the way everything is laid out it is pretty unbelievable.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> You need to quit typing and read closer. I didn't say MY approach. I said "_a reasonable man approach_" and I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that you've never heard that term.
> 
> What am I going to be proven wrong of?..........the idea that every man deserves a fair trial?
> 
> ...


 There you go again, making accusations without all the info. Living on the left coast does not make be a lefty.

By the way, I spent a week in Decatur Alabama and LOVED it! Beautiful place to live.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Here's my belief...Don't punish him at all...take him at his word and let him deal with shooting with his peers again.

And you can bet that he'll be back in no time at all. People like this have absolutely NO shame.

IF he get's some sort of punishment, he'll feel like he did the time and is fine. BUT if he's "acquitted", he'll be worse off having to face everyone.


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## nimh (Nov 26, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> You need to quit typing and read closer. I didn't say MY approach. I said "_a reasonable man approach_" and I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that you've never heard that term.
> 
> What am I going to be proven wrong of?..........the idea that every man deserves a fair trial?
> 
> ...


Nice biography. You forgot to add the part of how you like to stick up for cheater's, chat with them on fb and post private msg's on public forums.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Jhorne said:


> Since I didn't get any respones from post #344 I thought I would ask again. What would you all think if he comes back and continues win?


Others have in the past after being found quilty. Everyone still knows they cheated and talks about them. Im quessing this guy going to be the same.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

1955 said:


> There you go again, making accusations without all the info. Living on the left coast does not make be a lefty.
> 
> By the way, I spent a week in Decatur Alabama and LOVED it! Beautiful place to live.



Yeah I'm sure about that by the way. *Please* feel free to air out my dirty laundry.

.....and I never said you were a "lefty" only that you should stay there.

I also don't think the attack on shootist was necessary. Is it beyond your comprehension that a friendly and respectful relationship can be maintained without agreement on issues like this?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Others have in the past after being found quilty. Everyone still knows they cheated and talks about them. Im quessing this guy going to be the same.
> DB


Yes, he'll be back. He has not admitted any guilt so in his mind he did nothing wrong. 
They will not be able to get reparations for any offense committed earlier because they(ASA) have no proof. He would have to admit wrong doing at those events for them to punish him for it.

I know that any reasonable person who bought a pair of Binos at a yard sale would be looking closely at them and making sure they were in good condition, If it had a "button" on it I would want to know what it is for, I have no doubt he knew what he had and knew how to use them and did use them. I don't buy the "yard sale" story for one minute.

But since he has not admitted any guilt, he probably never will at this point. He already has his "story" figured out and he's "sticking to it" Why get caught in another lie?
Coming clean at this point would be almost impossible for him to do. There's been too many things happen.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

nimh said:


> .....and post private msg's on public forums.


I admitted to not being at peace with that but I felt it best in the end. I deserve it and I'll take my lumps for that one.

The rest is just you being a jerk.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

XForce Girl said:


> Yes, he'll be back. He has not admitted any guilt so in his mind he did nothing wrong.
> They will not be able to get reparations for any offense committed earlier because they(ASA) have no proof. He would have to admit wrong doing at those events for them to punish him for it.
> 
> I know that any reasonable person who bought a pair of Binos at a yard sale would be looking closely at them and making sure they were in good condition, If it had a "button" on it I would want to know what it is for, I have no doubt he knew what he had and knew how to use them and did use them. I don't buy the "yard sale" story for one minute.
> ...


Im hoping the rules committee understands he not admitting quilt and take this into consideration when making a ruling.
DB


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im hoping the rules committee understands he not admitting quilt and take this into consideration when making a ruling.
> DB


I think that's really a big point in all of this dialog. Why can't the court of public opinion calm down, and let the decision making body make a ruling?

At the end of the day, take a breather and let the decision be made. Then let the public outcry be what it is (in agreement or disagreement). 

Remember, the ASA is a business. If the punishment does not fit the crime, then the ASA customers have the option of speaking their mind with their wallets. I've seen plenty of comments along the lines of "If _______ does not happen, then I'll never shoot shoot ASA again!", or something like that. I feel confident that if the punishment does not fit the crime, the choice to boycott by those that feel so passionate about it, will speak far more loudly than random ranting on internet forums.


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## evasiveone (Jul 22, 2011)

I find it odd that he has had these binos for some time now, used them at several shoots and did not know they were range finder's. Yet a course official examines them for just a brief moment and discovers they are a functioning range finder. Either the course official is a bino genius or somebody's story doesn't add up.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

How many witnesses saw the active duty major (a psychologist and a devout MULSIM), pull the trigger what 31 times in Arizona that maimed and permanently injured Gabby? They SAW HIM TO IT....Yet, he and his lawyers are going to profess his "innocence" until the cows come home.
Sure, that is the way our legal system works...profess your "innoncence" even if/when you are caught red-handed!

Always somebody else's fault, or in this day and age, any excuse is better than none...and if you have to, make up a dandy excuse so you don't have to bear the responsibility and hopefully won't have to bear the accountability for your poor decisions.

I agree, however, that a lifetime ban is not in order in this case; however, a single tournament DQ will do more harm to the sport than good. The CC has one heckuva tough decision...whether to be fair to someone caught red handed...the details involved that just maybe we aren't privvy to....or how to make sure responsibility and accountability for actions contrary to the best interests of the competitors and the sport of 3-D archery are enforced.
It isn't just about breaking the rule concerning range finders...it is about fraud, coverup, perhaps a "tall story", perhaps not "fessing up when you mess up"...and violating the trust placed in you by ALL of your fellow competitors. Going from a real "Archer" to a "shooter" is a huge step backwards, however. ARCHERS don't pull this stuff!


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## shooter34 (Feb 24, 2009)

i wonder how hard it is to get Zeiss warranty information, to see who they were registered by. $2000 for a pair of range finding bino's i am sure they were registered.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Field, the Gabby Gifford shooting and the muslim major were two totally different events.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

It just seems to me that the ASA and the Comp. Commitee are going to have there hands full with this one. No matter how plain it is to see that there was some major disguise of the binos, the only thing they can clearly prove is that he had them on the course. Other than that fact, all else can be speculated upon for years to no avail. Face it, he broke the rules and is more than likely lying about everything else. But who can prove it? That leads me to believe that the ASA's hands are going to be tied and he has already recieved the punishment that they can dish out. This decision will in fact probably hurt the ASA and what about the shooters that are usually in the 15-20th finishing spot that puts 40 shots together and posts up a big score? Will they ever be thought of as cheaters, just because they had their day? Hope not.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

hrtlnd164 said:


> It just seems to me that the ASA and the Comp. Commitee are going to have there hands full with this one. No matter how plain it is to see that there was some major disguise of the binos, the only thing they can clearly prove is that he had them on the course. Other than that fact, all else can be speculated upon for years to no avail. Face it, he broke the rules and is more than likely lying about everything else. But who can prove it? That leads me to believe that the ASA's hands are going to be tied and he has already recieved the punishment that they can dish out. This decision will in fact probably hurt the ASA and what about the shooters that are usually in the 15-20th finishing spot that puts 40 shots together and posts up a big score? Will they ever be thought of as cheaters, just because they had their day? Hope not.


You are so right, this is indeed very sad. 
It's hard to see how anything good can come from any of this.
That's what I am really mad about, that one person can cause such a black eye for archery.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

his team finished second in the team shoot. that has to fall under a cloud of suspicion as well.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

X Force girl please dont get mad at me. IMHO I do think this is a black eye for archery, but it is archery career suicide for MV. I see some positives in this for archery: look how many of us semis/ true archers are sticking together on this issue! Because of this, archers are more educated in detecting cheats. I woulldnt be surprised that archers will voluntarily offer their binos for group inspection prior to the beginning of each round/same time we draw shooting order. I say this nt because we all have distrust for each other, but OUR efforts to save and restore 3D archery credibility. I reiterate that the only credibility that is damaged is MV's 

Our next Asa is G.A. I bet we will have a great turn out and we all will have a grand time as usual.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> How many witnesses saw the active duty major (a psychologist and a devout MULSIM), pull the trigger what 31 times in Arizona that maimed and permanently injured Gabby? They SAW HIM TO IT....Yet, he and his lawyers are going to profess his "innocence" until the cows come home.
> Sure, that is the way our legal system works...profess your "innoncence" even if/when you are caught red-handed!
> 
> Always somebody else's fault, or in this day and age, any excuse is better than none...and if you have to, make up a dandy excuse so you don't have to bear the responsibility and hopefully won't have to bear the accountability for your poor decisions.
> ...


Tom....Gabby was shot by a thug in AZ. The Major was the Ft Hood masacre. Two different events but same reasoning. I know what you meant.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## foreveryung (Mar 18, 2011)

Unfortunately, he seems to have lost sight of what archery is truly about.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

J Whittington said:


> X Force girl please dont get mad at me. IMHO I do think this is a black eye for archery, but it is archery career suicide for MV. I see some positives in this for archery: look how many of us semis/ true archers are sticking together on this issue! Because of this, archers are more educated in detecting cheats. I woulldnt be surprised that archers will voluntarily offer their binos for group inspection prior to the beginning of each round/same time we draw shooting order. I say this nt because we all have distrust for each other, but OUR efforts to save and restore 3D archery credibility. I reiterate that the only credibility that is damaged is MV's
> 
> Our next Asa is G.A. I bet we will have a great turn out and we all will have a grand time as usual.


I agree totally with this, it may help level the playing field in the future. In my opinion the worst part of this whole scenario are the guys who feel so strongly about this that they are saying if the punishment doesn't fit the crime they are done with the ASA. Understandably they are pizzed at what transpired and have that option. I would hate to this this lead to the ASA losing quality shooters who have worked ther butts off to reach that level of competition. Those guys are the reason I pushed myself up to the Semi level, they are the ones I strive to compete against. I can't imagine how an individual"s concsience could possibly allow them to think they have done no wrong in this instance.It will be truly tough for anyone to share a course with him in the future if he does return.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

J Whittington said:


> X Force girl please dont get mad at me. IMHO I do think this is a black eye for archery, but it is archery career suicide for MV. I see some positives in this for archery: look how many of us semis/ true archers are sticking together on this issue! Because of this, archers are more educated in detecting cheats. I woulldnt be surprised that archers will voluntarily offer their binos for group inspection prior to the beginning of each round/same time we draw shooting order. I say this nt because we all have distrust for each other, but OUR efforts to save and restore 3D archery credibility. I reiterate that the only credibility that is damaged is MV's
> 
> Our next Asa is G.A. I bet we will have a great turn out and we all will have a grand time as usual.


Why would I get mad at you??
Well I probably won't make it to Augusta this year but any shoots I do make it too, you can bet I'll be making the rest of the group inspect my binos, bow, etc. (not that I stand a chance of winning )
I know this incident will have everyone on their toes for sure. 
I guess I can see your point of view, I sure hope you are right. 
Have a great time in GA!!


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

noXcuses said:


> Yes there is the slightest bit of uncertainty about this. The range official should have confiscated the binos. Checked for fingerprints on the batteries? May seem extreme but That would give us concrete evidence if he knew they were rangefinders. I do however believe because there is a bit of uncertainty that a lifetime ban should not be executed. I think a fair punishment would be this shooting year suspension. Let him come back the next year and prove he can judge and shoot with the rest of us. If his story is true I do feel bad, but the way everything is laid out it is pretty unbelievable.


how much csi do you watch


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## msbowman (Aug 26, 2009)

Everybody hasn't realized that he can't change his story about giving $25 for a set of $2000 binos. If he does that his wife would hang him. Lol.


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## force1 (Jul 14, 2004)

If you think thats bad a friend that goes to big shoots with me, at ohio one of the national ibo shoots they had the youths shooting with seniors and a father was telling his kid the yardage . He was trying to hide it , my friend snuck up next to him and he was using his fingers in front of him to give yardage to his kid , he did not turn him in, just stared at him in disgust . Cheating is one thing but teaching your kid to do it is another . No wander these grownups do it maybe there fathers taught them.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

DonsHarley said:


> Maybe they need to start checking optics at the gate.


whatever your group size is before the first target is shot group exchanges bino's to check each others out but it still may not stop someone who has a extra pair in their chair


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

J Whittington said:


> X Force girl please dont get mad at me. IMHO I do think this is a black eye for archery, but it is archery career suicide for MV. I see some positives in this for archery: look how many of us semis/ true archers are sticking together on this issue! Because of this, archers are more educated in detecting cheats. I woulldnt be surprised that archers will voluntarily offer their binos for group inspection prior to the beginning of each round/same time we draw shooting order. I say this nt because we all have distrust for each other, but OUR efforts to save and restore 3D archery credibility. I reiterate that the only credibility that is damaged is MV's
> 
> Our next Asa is G.A. I bet we will have a great turn out and we all will have a grand time as usual.


 Offering your glasses for inspection is exactly what I suggested several pages back. It is exactly what I plan to do. I'll get that ball rolling in Augusta in my group.


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## jamesbowman (Jan 29, 2006)

ccwilder3 said:


> While I will agree that ATer's at times have a lynch mob mentality, that doesn't mean the mob is always wrong.
> 
> Let's look at what has been said by people who shot with him. They have stated that he was careful to keep the bino's from view, covering them with a towel.
> The bino's were intentionally disguised as another brand. After using the bino's he would cover them so they could not be identified.
> ...


If anyone beleives he got those binos at a yard sale for $25.00 I have some swamp land in WV I'd like to sell ya! Pm me about a deal of a lifetime:wink:


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

jamesbowman said:


> If anyone beleives he got those binos at a yard sale for $25.00 I have some swamp land in WV I'd like to sell ya! Pm me about a deal of a lifetime:wink:


Is it near putnam county by any chance


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

I think that there is a lot here that cant be proven either for or against MV. So lets look at the 2 possibilities on the table for consideration.
1) Did MV buy these binoculars and disguise them to use them to cheat? :noidea:

OR

2) Did some other guy that noone knows buy a $2000.00 pair of ranging bino's, and disguise them, for no apparent reason, to look like a cheaper pair of Alpens? And then decide to sell these seriously disguised $2000.00 binoculars in a yard sale for a whopping $25.00? And then MV a top touring semi-pro archer showed up at this very yard sale and buy what he believed to be a cheap pair of bino's. And then after his son, and apparently several friends used these bino's, and none ever discovered the ranging button exactly where you would place your fingers to look through them, MV decides to use these cheap $25 yard sale bino's to shoot a major national tournament. And then out of the blue..... for no apparent reason..... a range official asks for the bino's and almost instantly gets them to work, much to MV's surprise. :mg: :wink: 


I can not tell you and be certain which of these situations is true or false.


But any moron can certainly be positive which one is MUCH more likely.


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## nilrednuas (Feb 9, 2012)

I need to go to yard sales with this guy


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## yellodog (Oct 21, 2008)

would a top competitor use $25 yard sale binos? yea, probably buys all his stuff at yard sales.....


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

And had he loaned them to several friends that never figured out they were ranging bino's. Where are those friends to defend him and say that they have used them too. I would think that they would have stepped right up to defend this great guy that let them use these binoculars. 
It's a little late for that now that the thought is out there MV, so don't try to use that approach now. Had one or two of his friends come forward from the start to defend his name and verify this story, I may have had a different opinion. 

If you want to talk about a reasonable man's opinion, well, you just got it.


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## noXcuses (Jan 19, 2010)

Well put 3-d junkie


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

By the way... does anyone know if he has an optics sponsor?


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

Once caught cheating you are a cheater for life

Once caught poaching you are a poacher for life


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> Yeah I'm sure about that by the way. *Please* feel free to air out my dirty laundry. Dude...IF you live(d) in Decatur Al, I'm sorry. I just mentioned it, because you said that you lived in N Al. and So. Tenn. and that's the ONE place that I've been to in the south. And just wanted to mention that I loved it there and that you're awful lucky (if that's what you meant by airing dirty laundry...otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about)
> 
> .....and I never said you were a "lefty" only that you should stay there.
> 
> I also don't think the attack on shootist was necessary. Is it beyond your comprehension that a friendly and respectful relationship can be maintained without agreement on issues like this?


Yes I do...and I was respectful with "shootist". I was just telling him what I thought of your opinion.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I checked hes not sponsored by Alpen.I had to call them anyway so I asked the girl ,they already know all about it .


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## Hardtimes (Mar 22, 2008)

This Thread is like a wildfire you can't put it out.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

If I was Michael Vincent I'd be reading this thread as a guest. It's loaded with excellent material for developing excuses, oops, "reasons" for having $2,000+ bino/rangefinders in your hands. Sounds like he has the balls, charisma, the looks and personality to find some supporters to "believe" in him.

If his son, wife or friends have seen Alpens with missing labels he's scccaaaarrrewd.


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## msbigdawg (Oct 15, 2010)

Well i have only been to one ASA shoot and from what i remember there was only one optics booth there...and it just so happens to be the one that the said bino's were disquised as....far fetched for them to be bought at a garge sale for $25 with all the markings of the sponsor optics....on top of that WHY in the world would ANYONE in the world do that to a pair of $2000 bino's other than a reason to hide the true makers for a specific reason, and to look like something that would not stand out at an ASA shoot....."i wonder how hard it is to get Zeiss warranty information, to see who they were registered by. $2000 for a pair of range finding bino's i am sure they were registered."..this could be a good starting point to verify some doubt.......I know i would not want to be on the committee that has to deal with this...as for the "sportsman of the yr award " he may have the plague but does not carry this in his peers eyes any longer for sure....I know MV and Its a bad deal for everyone and the sport but the one I feel the worst for is Garrett


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Hardtimes said:


> This Thread is like a wildfire you can't put it out.


Doesn't need to untill there is justice served.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

All this crying here. Is anyone viewing the ASA Forums? LD and another below LD's reply has posted some dang good stuff there - Rules and disciplinary action beyond stated rules.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> All this crying here. Is anyone viewing the ASA Forums? LD and another below LD's reply has posted some dang good stuff there - Rules and disciplinary action beyond stated rules.


Pop 'em a link, Sonny?

field14


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The ASA should REQUIRE him to participate in the remainder of the shoots............... He would be required to stay the nights alone in a tent on the grounds. You know, so people can keep an eye on him. :angel:


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> The ASA should REQUIRE him to participate in the remainder of the shoots............... He would be required to stay the nights alone in a tent on the grounds. You know, so people can keep an eye on him. :angel:


This would be sweet justice, also have about 300 chatting folks follow and score him!


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I would be willing to let him double his money, I will give him $50.00 for the binos


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> Doesn't need to untill there is justice served.


Depending on what comes down for "justice" it still may not be enough for some here


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here you go;
http://asaforum.com/index.php?topic=7344.msg48088#msg48088

and;
http://asaforum.com/index.php?topic=7344.msg48116#msg48116


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## Duckdawg (Nov 10, 2003)

shooter34 said:


> i wonder how hard it is to get Zeiss warranty information, to see who they were registered by. $2000 for a pair of range finding bino's i am sure they were registered.


Excellent point shooter.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

jamesbowman said:


> nice guys don't cheat- it's just that simple!! And he ought to be banned and made to give back all the winnings he has won to the guys who really won. And if tiger woods lost most of his sponsers for what he did off the course, what should a guy get that flat our cheated in his sport? Come on- i get sick and tired of people saying people are nice guys when they know nothing about their character- what he did tells what kind of guy he really is. Sounds to me he is the kind of guy who pats you on the back and then steals your wallet. The whole concept they were garage sale binos with covered up emblems also tells of the guys character. There would be only one reason to change emblems and your telling me someone at a garage sale did that so they could sell a pair of zeiss binos as alpens? Wow that sounds like a real believable story!!
> A cheater is nothing more than thief, and thieves are not good guys in my book. This is what is wrong with our society today- we call thieves and cheats good ol boys!!


amen brother!


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## dhs28 (Sep 9, 2008)

there are quite a few threads on this, and i havent read every page so maybe this was covered. even though he denies knowing it had a range button, isnt he at least admitting to using the illegal binoculars since he bought them at a conveniently out of town yard sale. isnt that enough to get all his scores (ASA and IBO) DQ'd since whatever indoor shoot he is referencing?



tmorelli said:


> I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

dhs28 said:


> there are quite a few threads on this, and i havent read every page so maybe this was covered. even though he denies knowing it had a range button, isnt he at least admitting to using the illegal binoculars since he bought them at a conveniently out of town yard sale. isnt that enough to get all his scores (ASA and IBO) DQ'd since whatever indoor shoot he is referencing?


It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I would think they could get it done on paper but I don't know how they'd handle winnings. 

If they do it, is ASA by default committing to reassign winnings? That money would have to come from somewhere.

If ASA does that, what would the contingency paying sponsors do?

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

Some one posted in the ASa forum that the IBO removed his name from the STC standings.


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## maufenkamp (Dec 21, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about sharing this but he is obviously not comfortable sharing his side of the story and I obviously treat the street credibility of my name with reckless abandon and I've scribbled out the other names to "protect the innocent" since they have no dog in this hunt. Regardless of all that, I feel for him (for entirely different reasons in each case) if he is guilty of intentional cheating or guilty of inadvertantly breaking the rules. In the case of intentionally cheating, I've heard it wisely compared to a gambling or drug addiction. If he really didn't know the binocs had rangefinding capability, I'm truly sorry that something like this happened to him; it would be a "bad things happen to good people" situation. At the risk of sounding like my parents, "it just hurts my heart" in both scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't shoot competitively and don't really care about all this but I did read quite a bit of this thread because a) I thought the subject matter looked interesting, and b) I find it amusing the way you all squabble like a bunch of b***hes.

Based on what I've read thus far in this thread from firsthand accounts, the above facebook post is not only complete bulls**t but it's really not even very clever. It sounds like the type of lie a seven-year-old would tell after having been caught redhanded.


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

Sorry but the story does not make any sense at all. I know others have posted simular comments but, why would anyone cover up the fact that the binoculars were Ziess binocularsand label them for a much cheaper pair of binoculars. Then sell them at a garage sell for just a fraction of their worth when he could put them on craigs list or the like and get alot more for the great pair of binocular/range finder. Also I find it hard to believe that a 7 year old who had them in his hands would not have "stumbled" accross the range button and asked what it was. I know my 5 year old would have found it in no time.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

maufenkamp said:


> I don't shoot competitively and don't really care about all this but I did read quite a bit of this thread because a) I thought the subject matter looked interesting, and b) I find it amusing the way you all squabble like a bunch of b***hes.
> 
> Based on what I've read thus far in this thread from firsthand accounts, the above facebook post is not only complete bulls**t but it's really not even very clever. It sounds like the type of lie a seven-year-old would tell after having been caught redhanded.


Seriously - squabble like a bunch of *****es? It could be said he defrauded and stole THOUSANDS of dollars from fellow archers -


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

You would think if he had any character at all he would own up to his guilt like a man and move forward. Instead he just keeps digging a deeper hole with more lies and even has the nerve to drag his innocent son into his lies. The guy doesn't deserve to have kids. He should try politics, he seems to have what it takes to succeed, lies, deceit, cheating, excuses, and never admitting guilt.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

maufenkamp said:


> I don't shoot competitively and don't really care about all this but I did read quite a bit of this thread because a) I thought the subject matter looked interesting, and b) I find it amusing the way you all squabble like a bunch of b***hes.
> 
> Based on what I've read thus far in this thread from firsthand accounts, the above facebook post is not only complete bulls**t but it's really not even very clever. It sounds like the type of lie a seven-year-old would tell after having been caught redhanded.


OK, so if you dont compete and dont care dont come on here and call everyone B****es! This guy stole lots of $$$ from people and alot of people do care!!!


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

From the way maufenkamp throws around insults on his keyboard, I would guess that he's probably a very small and insignificant individual. Does he even matter to us? I don't think so. If he has read 15 pages of a thread he doesn't really even have any interest in, he must have a very dull existence. It's a pitty really. I can't imagine a life so meaningless and depressing, that I would waste hours of my time on something I am not even interested in.
I guess if my life was that worthless, I would be angry too, and lash out at people I don't know. Or maybe it's a desperate cry for attention. Either way it is obvious he has nothing more than insults to offer us so lets not waste any of our lives on him because he obviously has nothing worthwhile to contribute to anyone.

To maufenkamp......... I am truly sorry about your life but please don't blame us, we did not create your circumstance.


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## Evanryan (Apr 7, 2007)

3-D Junkie said:


> I think that there is a lot here that cant be proven either for or against MV. So lets look at the 2 possibilities on the table for consideration.
> 1) Did MV buy these binoculars and disguise them to use them to cheat? :noidea:
> 
> OR
> ...


^^^^^^Exactly^^^*^


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I'm hearing thru the grapevine that ASA will keep "the decision" quiet and not announce what, if anything, is being done to the offender.
IMHO...it would add a lot to preventing future incidents of this nature IF THE DECISION AND ACTION TAKEN WAS POSTED for all to see....Otherwise, we don't know if it is a "slap on the wrist" or whatever, so there isn't any real and known deterrent for someone else to try the same thing or something similar.
NO DETERRENTS = more incidents.

Let people know the action taken to provide said deterrent!

Just sayin'

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> I'm hearing thru the grapevine that ASA will keep "the decision" quiet and not announce what, if anything, is being done to the offender.
> IMHO...it would add a lot to preventing future incidents of this nature IF THE DECISION AND ACTION TAKEN WAS POSTED for all to see....Otherwise, we don't know if it is a "slap on the wrist" or whatever, so there isn't any real and known deterrent for someone else to try the same thing or something similar.
> NO DETERRENTS = more incidents.
> 
> ...


Would be an injustice to the other archers not to hear the punishment. Archery a small community and keeping it a secret would be impossiable.
DB


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

If the ASA keeps the result of this investigation a secret, its a discredit upon itself, and the sport.

I fully agree, that zero deterrence will result in more offenders. With a silent presedence set of no action, then any cheater caught in the future can say "Archer X got Punishment X for the same offense, you can't do more against me."

Again, I am waiting to see what the ASA states formally on this matter. Without speculation, or conclusions drawn on my part until that result is announced.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

I thought I mentioned this, maybe in another thread. ASA is a business, they more than likely will not announce punishment, if there even is any. It has probably already occurred and been dealt with, if any was issued. Nature of the beast.

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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

NFL, MLB, NASCAR, all are businesses that always hold press conferences to announce penalties when their employees are penalized in one form or another.

The fact the ASA is a business does not excuse them from not announcing their findings in some form or fashion. Unless a larger investigation is in progress.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

colo_dually said:


> NFL, MLB, NASCAR, all are businesses that always hold press conferences to announce penalties when their employees are penalized in one form or another.
> 
> The fact the ASA is a business does not excuse them from not announcing their findings in some form or fashion. Unless a larger investigation is in progress.


Ummmm I believe there are collective bargaining agreements in those professional sports you just mentioned. As in player associations and labor contracts that are entered into by players and management. I would like to believe the announcement of penalties are part of those agreements as they should be and usually are, since management likes that option. It is usually a bargaining subject that the players give up to get something they want in return. There are not collective bargaining rights for individual archers and therefore the sanctioning body of the event can do what they choose as a business. 


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I think that if they have the facts to show he did cheat then a lifetime ban from ASA should be imposed!


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

Your previous post dealt with the ASA decision being with held solely on the basis of ASA being a business. I countered with a list of businesses who do announce the penalties for offenses. Collective Bargaining is not the reason the ASA is not saying anything, and be honest we're all just speculating the reasons we have not heard an announcement.

The ASA may in the end choose not to release anything, and as a business that is their right. However, that decision will not solely be based on a perceived contract with MV and the ASA, but by the ASA alone. I have no personal reason to hear what the ASA decides and MV's career is about shot should this whole situation is verified in the investigation.

Where it may impact me, is if that decision includes alterations to the ASA rulebook, and has a lasting impact on the sport.


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

ba3darcher said:


> What is wrong with each group before starting exchange binos take a look and then give back to the owner, really simple and would be a simple if each shooter in the group would have a chance to look thru them, there would then be no questions. This would be policing ourselves as outlined in the ASA ruless. taking away the use of binos is crazy.


smartest thing Ive read so far


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

We had a local shoot this weekend and the above posted situation took place about midway through. One of the shooters in my group asked to see my binos(Brunton Eternas) they have a raised B on the right side, I was shooting after glassing he asked to see them, I just handed them back and got a chuckle as did another shooterin the group as his finger turned white trying to push the (button) . The entire topic has folks on edge.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

colo_dually said:


> Your previous post dealt with the ASA decision being with held solely on the basis of ASA being a business. I countered with a list of businesses who do announce the penalties for offenses. Collective Bargaining is not the reason the ASA is not saying anything, and be honest we're all just speculating the reasons we have not heard an announcement.
> 
> The ASA may in the end choose not to release anything, and as a business that is their right. However, that decision will not solely be based on a perceived contract with MV and the ASA, but by the ASA alone. I have no personal reason to hear what the ASA decides and MV's career is about shot should this whole situation is verified in the investigation.
> 
> Where it may impact me, is if that decision includes alterations to the ASA rulebook, and has a lasting impact on the sport.


Yes, you are correct. ASA is a business and a smart business decision would be to keep it between them and the shooter. That is what was meant, not that they are a business so they dont have to release it. They stand as much if not more harm by releasing it and making it more public because they can't please everyone and stand to lose entries and credibility for those that disagree. I am speaking purely from a business standpoint. Money and credibility is at stake.

As far as MV goes, he doesnt care. He will be back at it shooting again with some other trick if they allow him. People like this have no fear or the mental ability to understand.


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

My problem with them keeping it to themselves is this. I want to know a organization I am associating with upholds their rules with honor and fairness, and seeks to better the sport as a whole. If the out comes is not known then the appearance is that it was swept under the rug and that the type of behavior or breaking of the rules brings no consequence. This shows the up and coming youth that there is no consequence to their actions in not following the rules gives validity to cheating. The findings need to be public and the consequences what ever they may be need to be know if for no other reason as a potential deterant to others.


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well here is my take on the business thing. No disrespect to anyone. I was not there so I do not know the exact details of what happened. I have read the threads. And if he truly cheated (and I am in no way saying he did not, I was not there) then they ought to release what they did or are going to do. I mean, he cheated in public so, make the decicion public. He did not cheat in private.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rjharcher said:


> My problem with them keeping it to themselves is this. I want to know a organization I am associating with upholds their rules with honor and fairness, and seeks to better the sport as a whole. If the out comes is not known then the appearance is that it was swept under the rug and that the type of behavior or breaking of the rules brings no consequence. This shows the up and coming youth that there is no consequence to their actions in not following the rules gives validity to cheating. The findings need to be public and the consequences what ever they may be need to be know if for no other reason as a potential deterant to others.


You hit the nail on the head....but there are LEGAL implications...you know, that frickin' 'PRIVACY ACT'....that royally screws everything up as far as deterrents go! There is no longer any fear for people that do the sort of thing that is the subject of this thread, since they have the "right to privacy" so their iddy biddy feelings and pride don't get hurt so bad by people finding out the details for the "punishment issued." Sorta like "wiping the record clean" and keeping the thing totally secret, you know?
In the meantime, like you say, no deterrents, and we don't know if he/she got a simple "talk" of "don't do it again" or if the hammer fell, or whatever; it isn't right, but with people today being SUE HAPPY and so egotistical, the associations and 'higher ups' have to dot the "I's" and cross the "T's" to prevent LAWSUITS from being filed by the GUILTY.

It sucks, but thanks to our courts, we're stuck with it.
I remember when I was growing up, a "youthful offender's" name, when they did something wrong was put into the newspaper. Said youthful offender was embarrassed about it, and it was a given that he/she had not only embarrassed themselves with their malfeasance, but also embarrassed their parents, their grand-parents, their aunts and uncles, and their sisters and brothers....It was a heckuva deterrent to behave yourself and NOT get your name in the paper unless it was for GOOD THINGS!!
Of course, if a kid got into trouble with Johnny Law...the penalty was enforced, along with the name in the paper, and then the perp got it but good at home too. That all changed when we started pampering the little dears....because it traumatizes them to be punished and to have people know they are creeps.
Blast away, but there are so few deterrents for rotten behavior, and no accountability or acceptance of responsibility for someone's actions. It is always somebody else that is to blame....who knows, maybe his dad broke his binoculars when he was a kid and wouldn't buy him new ones or something...????

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> You hit the nail on the head....but there are LEGAL implications...you know, that frickin' 'PRIVACY ACT'....that royally screws everything up as far as deterrents go! There is no longer any fear for people that do the sort of thing that is the subject of this thread, since they have the "right to privacy" so their iddy biddy feelings and pride don't get hurt so bad by people finding out the details for the "punishment issued." Sorta like "wiping the record clean" and keeping the thing totally secret, you know?
> In the meantime, like you say, no deterrents, and we don't know if he/she got a simple "talk" of "don't do it again" or if the hammer fell, or whatever; it isn't right, but with people today being SUE HAPPY and so egotistical, the associations and 'higher ups' have to dot the "I's" and cross the "T's" to prevent LAWSUITS from being filed by the GUILTY.
> 
> It sucks, but thanks to our courts, we're stuck with it.
> ...


Um...no offense...but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...There is nothing that legally prevents the ASA form announcing whatever decision it makes if it decides to do so. They can even do it without mentioning anyone's name...yet everyone would know. So long as whatever is said is based on evidence and the truth, there is nothing that prevents the ASA from announcing it...

Seriously...everything you said above is simply wrong...please don't repeat it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Um...no offense...but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...There is nothing that legally prevents the ASA form announcing whatever decision it makes if it decides to do so. They can even do it without mentioning anyone's name...yet everyone would know. So long as whatever is said is based on evidence and the truth, there is nothing that prevents the ASA from announcing it...
> 
> Seriously...everything you said above is simply wrong...please don't repeat it.


Rolo, you being an attorney, I guess you are CORRECT, or you wouldn't say it.
BUT....are you saying there is no 'Privacy Act'???? Since when? 
People are SUE happy...and it is this threat of a lawsuit that keeps lotsa things from becoming "public knowledge"...many times, all it takes is a threat of a lawsuit..and people in a position to do something about an infraction will waffle out.
It happened at VEGAS this year.....where apparently (or so we were told) the threat of a lawsuit shut 'em right down with regard to possible enforcement; or so we were told. In addition, in that case, NOBODY knows what, if anything was finally done about the situation and we "outsiders" will likely never know either.
Guess you are right there that it is by CHOICE of the "association" to "keep it quiet"...or is it?

I do feel that it while it might hurt the feelings of the person disciplined, it sure would provide some deterrent to others by telling what was or wasn't done about the infraction.

Guess I won't repeat it...since I can't "delete it." ha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

Billincamo said:


> You would think if he had any character at all he would own up to his guilt like a man and move forward. Instead he just keeps digging a deeper hole with more lies and even has the nerve to drag his innocent son into his lies. The guy doesn't deserve to have kids. He should try politics, he seems to have what it takes to succeed, lies, deceit, cheating, excuses, and never admitting guilt.


If he had any character he wouldn't have cheated in the first place. He is acting exactly as someone that cheats would be expected to under these circumstances. Shouldn't be surprising.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> Rolo, you being an attorney, I guess you are CORRECT, or you wouldn't say it.
> BUT....are you saying there is no 'Privacy Act'???? Since when?
> People are SUE happy...and it is this threat of a lawsuit that keeps lotsa things from becoming "public knowledge"...many times, all it takes is a threat of a lawsuit..and people in a position to do something about an infraction will waffle out.
> It happened at VEGAS this year.....where apparently (or so we were told) the threat of a lawsuit shut 'em right down with regard to possible enforcement; or so we were told. In addition, in that case, NOBODY knows what, if anything was finally done about the situation and we "outsiders" will likely never know either.
> ...


There are certain "privacy acts"...they relate to the government, and/or the release of personal private information. Social security numbers, health records...you know...important stuff.

Whatever allegedly happened at Vegas...I tend not to rely on hearsay...may very well have had nothing, zero, nada to do with privacy, cheating, or anything else. If a threat happened, it may have been an idle one, may have had merit...but since a) I wasn't there; b) no one who was actually a party to whatever happened has told me what happened; and c) I have heard nothing about 'cheating' going on, or anything else that calls ther integrity of the game or any individual in question...I don't operate on "so we are told" standards...facts, void of emotion and conspiracy tend to work better in the real world...

As to the ASA...you post, and a bunch of others are prime examples of a) why the ASA should take its time in whatever decision it makes so it is free of subjecttive, and emotional decision making; and, b) a good reason it has to keep whatever decision it makes within the confines of the ASA...otherwise the risk of emotional responses...people running all over the net essentially talking out of their back-sides about what they don't know, could have far greater detrimental impact. If anything, I imagine the ASA would be best to say: "we have decided to take action "X" against "A" shooter for violating this rule. Further similar infractions by other shooters will result in the same or similar sanction."

There is no need or reason to make yet another example out of the person, and based on what I have read on the net...there certainly is good reason to not get into the "why"...cuz it is obvious that peoplewill take that and make it mean whatever it is they want...and repeat it as if it were fact...


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

ban this loser for life....the level he went to to fool others that he wasnt cheating sickin me!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rolo said:


> There are certain "privacy acts"...they relate to the government, and/or the release of personal private information. Social security numbers, health records...you know...important stuff.
> 
> Whatever allegedly happened at Vegas...I tend not to rely on hearsay...may very well have had nothing, zero, nada to do with privacy, cheating, or anything else. If a threat happened, it may have been an idle one, may have had merit...but since a) I wasn't there; b) no one who was actually a party to whatever happened has told me what happened; and c) I have heard nothing about 'cheating' going on, or anything else that calls ther integrity of the game or any individual in question...I don't operate on "so we are told" standards...facts, void of emotion and conspiracy tend to work better in the real world...
> 
> ...


You know what, Rolo? I LIKE your style!
However, the "Vegas Incident" had NOTHING to do with cheating, period. It involved something completely different, so we will let it drop. The point I was trying to make there is that, if the NFAA and NFAA Pros have taken action, they have yet to announce said action and have perhaps kept it between the Association and the person involved and it won't go any farther. So be it, I guess.
What you say the position and announcement of the ASA might go like makes perfect sense (in red above)! I think the deterrent would be within that type of statement, and that is a great caveat for providing the deterrent.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## maufenkamp (Dec 21, 2011)

3-D Junkie said:


> From the way maufenkamp throws around insults on his keyboard, I would guess that he's probably a very small and insignificant individual. Does he even matter to us? I don't think so. If he has read 15 pages of a thread he doesn't really even have any interest in, he must have a very dull existence. It's a pitty really. I can't imagine a life so meaningless and depressing, that I would waste hours of my time on something I am not even interested in.
> I guess if my life was that worthless, I would be angry too, and lash out at people I don't know. Or maybe it's a desperate cry for attention. Either way it is obvious he has nothing more than insults to offer us so lets not waste any of our lives on him because he obviously has nothing worthwhile to contribute to anyone.
> 
> To maufenkamp......... I am truly sorry about your life but please don't blame us, we did not create your circumstance.


Thanks for making my point


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The ASA may be a organization, but unlike the IBO the ASA is also a business. The issue is before the Competition Committee. The Committee has Super Powers. If by Mike, he only stated allowing the Committee the time to fully review and the provide the proper disposition.
Business, possibly legal issues, and figure more legal issues being the accused shoots for who and how many, I'd want my "ducks lined up" before doing or saying anything.

Now, said was the IBO pulled the accused's scores from the previous event. Hope they have witnesses and absolute proof or they might be looking at.....


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Lol, innocent till proven guilty only applies to criminal charges in America. You can be hung out to dry by local or national archery organizations and/or the archery forums with reckless abandon if that is what this community chooses when it comes to cheating.

I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Sonny, i'm bettin' ken watkins thinks ibo is a business...structured differently from asa, but a business none the less.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

looking at the dog fights now occurring here on AT among folks about this case, i'm struck by the fact that negative impact created by MV has already started to taint the entire archery community. way to go, vincent. hope you're proud of yourself.


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

carlosii said:


> looking at the dog fights now occurring here on AT among folks about this case, i'm struck by the fact that negative impact created by MV has already started to taint the entire archery community. way to go, vincent. hope you're proud of yourself.






This also rears it's Ugly Head almost at every local 3-D shoot here as well along with the Pencil Whoopings!!


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Rolo said:


> There are certain "privacy acts"...they relate to the government, and/or the release of personal private information. Social security numbers, health records...you know...important stuff.
> 
> Whatever allegedly happened at Vegas...I tend not to rely on hearsay...may very well have had nothing, zero, nada to do with privacy, cheating, or anything else. If a threat happened, it may have been an idle one, may have had merit...but since a) I wasn't there; b) no one who was actually a party to whatever happened has told me what happened; and c) I have heard nothing about 'cheating' going on, or anything else that calls ther integrity of the game or any individual in question...I don't operate on "so we are told" standards...facts, void of emotion and conspiracy tend to work better in the real world...
> 
> ...


You are correct. The Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC 552a involves release of private information relevant to a person. DOB, SSN, things of this nature. There is no respect of privacy in this case provided they dont release his personal information. A wise business decision would be to keep it all quite and between the ASA and the shooter. The ASA stands to lose more in respect to credibility and loss of shooters due to unhappy people with the results of what they decide.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

:tongue:


field14 said:


> You know what, Rolo? I LIKE your style!


I'm not sure how to take that or if it is a compliment or not...:wink:



FishAlaska said:


> You are correct. The Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC 552a involves release of private information relevant to a person. DOB, SSN, things of this nature. There is no respect of privacy in this case provided they dont release his personal information. A wise business decision would be to keep it all quite and between the ASA and the shooter. The ASA stands to lose more in respect to credibility and loss of shooters due to unhappy people with the results of what they decide.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


I think the ASA potenttially keeping some of the specifics and the "whys" for whatever decision it makes are wise for a lot of reasons. B ut I also think a generic statement, similar to what I said above is in order. 1) it tells people there was a sanction and what it was. 2) it puts people on notice of what they can expect ion the future, if they or anyone else is caught cheating. (Perhaps the biggest issue is what to do with/for the people who were "aced" out of a position as the result of a rules violation.)

Watching all of these threads...I have come to a semi-conclusion about the how 'bad' this is for archery in general, and 3-D more specifically...personally, while the act of one person cheating (assuming for this post he was, and more than once) is certainly bad, I think it alone would be a footnote on the sport. The reaction of others however, and the vitriole that has been put forth, toward the individual and the ASA on the otherhand...well in my opinion, that has a far greater for potential detrimental impact as a whole than the dishonest act of one...

It has gone from a simple discussion about the acts of one person, to a wholly negative discussion...you better do it my way or else...critique of an organization that appears top be making a methodical, fact based and objective decision. Some of the statements made in these threads...mostly emotionally driven...posess the traits that can be far more negative to archery, than the actions of one...but as always...sometimes, well a lot on AT...everyone forgets the baby...


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Rolo said:


> :tongue:
> 
> I'm not sure how to take that or if it is a compliment or not...:wink:
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

I dont see the cheating act as a negative for ASA, per se, they just got caught in the middle. There is a certain "honor" expected in our game, and a shooter at this level breaking that trust deserves the ax, particularly if they are taking money and parlaying those winning scores into sponsorships. that is both cheating and theft. frankly, i don't see how ASA can win by not posting the results of their findings, and let it be a warning to others.

question for the lawyers... is that theft and prosecutable?

back to the pencil pushers... i wish there was a way around that nonsense. how weak does someone have to be to want a trophy that bad? They must never have won anything as a kid.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bucks said:


> I dont see the cheating act as a negative for ASA, per se, they just got caught in the middle. There is a certain "honor" expected in our game, and a shooter at this level breaking that trust deserves the ax, particularly if they are taking money and parlaying those winning scores into sponsorships. that is both cheating and theft. frankly, i don't see how ASA can win by not posting the results of their findings, and let it be a warning to others.
> 
> question for the lawyers... is that theft and prosecutable?
> 
> back to the pencil pushers... i wish there was a way around that nonsense. how weak does someone have to be to want a trophy that bad? They must never have won anything as a kid.


The younger set has grown up with cheating as a common practice, but fortunately not ALL of them; the majority are hard-working and honest...but the few that are out of line...are REALLY out of line and draw the attention away from those that are doing their finest. 
From games as little kids, to copying homework, cheating on quizzes & tests, to skirting the rules in little league, intermurals, and varsity sports, etc. (look at the cheating in HS, college, and Pro Sports being brought out on a near daily basis!) In addition, the current generations are brought up with the mindset that LOSERS finish second and to do whatever it takes to win...cheating, intimidation, bullying, it all "counts". In addition, to make it worse...there are even things in place these days that EVERYONE makes the team, and EVERYONE gets a trophy even if all they is to simply show up and be there (don't have to even be on time, just be there).
So, come adult-hood, when not everyone gets a trophy for simply showing up, not everyone is "sponsored", and cheating is more ardently frowned upon...and you have all the elements in place for them to cheat and think nothing of it.
Society has brought this upon themselves; we abhor it, yet we allow the "cheating" and short changing to go on during childhood and in the schools because we think we "have to help them be a success no matter what". Many flat cannot deal with failure, because they've never had to learn to deal with it.
Yep, I'll get blasted again...but simply calling the kettle black. It is horrific to see the goings on these days....OMG!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> Yep, I'll get blasted again...but simply calling the kettle black. It is horrific to see the goings on these days....OMG!
> field14 (Tom D.)


Not a blast...unless you consider reality a blast...but cheating in one form or another has been going on since the beginning of time, and will continue to the end of time. To say it is a new phenomia, or to group certain people into a general category of "cheaters" (but some really aren't, even though the rest are...) is simply a myopic, incredibly subjective and historical revisionist view of the world and reality...

Oh...it also does nothing to address the problem, and may actuall disenfranchise a segment of the population because they belong to a random group that engages in a common practice...at least as determined by someone who is not part of that group...

But to say that: *"The younger set has grown up with cheating as a common practice..."* simply fails to recognize that the older set also grew up with the same common practice...nothing like throwing in some divissive statements in the promotion of something...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Not a blast...unless you consider reality a blast...but cheating in one form or another has been going on since the beginning of time, and will continue to the end of time. To say it is a new phenomia, or to group certain people into a general category of "cheaters" (but some really aren't, even though the rest are...) is simply a myopic, incredibly subjective and historical revisionist view of the world and reality...
> 
> Oh...it also does nothing to address the problem, and may actuall disenfranchise a segment of the population because they belong to a random group that engages in a common practice...at least as determined by someone who is not part of that group...
> 
> But to say that: *"The younger set has grown up with cheating as a common practice..."* simply fails to recognize that the older set also grew up with the same common practice...nothing like throwing in some divissive statements in the promotion of something...


Beg to differ...there USED TO BE an "honor code" within our schools and society. In the schools, you violated said "honor code" by CHEATING, you received a FAILING GRADE for the COURSE, not just the "test" or item you copied or cheated upon. You violated the "honor code" in college...and you were tossed out on your ear, period!
There was strong accountability for your actions...and CHEATING was a low as it went...OUT you went. You plagiarized...you were busted and received the failure for it.
Now, this is FACT...since I've dealt with it back in the 1960's when I first started teaching..>WITH an "honor code" in place where CHEATING was dealt with by both a Failing grade in "CITIZENSHIP" (THAT failing grade was dealt with sternly by parents, by the way), AND the Failing grade for the COURSE...not just what you were caught cheating on. THIS IS FACT, and not fiction. I know; I was there and the "honor code" was in place.

Fast forward to when I returned to teaching 12 years ago. NO honor code, really. FACT....in a LOT of schools, if a pupil is caught cheating on a quiz, test, or whatever....the teacher is allowed to give them a FAILING GRADE for THAT item, period. Normally, there is no suspension. Since there is no such thing as a "Citizenship" grade, nothing is done there either. CHEAT on homework? "prove it" is what you get.
Fast forward to just two years ago: CASES (plural, not singular, and not even in my classes either). PUPILS (they can't be STUDENTS, cuz STUDENTS do NOT cheat) were caught openly CHEATING on exams. The teacher had PROOF they were cheating, the kids even admitted to it. Honor code violation? YES. What was done? Get this; it will blow your mind!!!!
The teacher was ordered NOT to give the pupils a failing grade of the exam!! Instead, the teacher was ORDERED to completely re-write a NEW exam for those pupils, give it to them after school, monitor it, and FULL CREDIT for the score obtained on the "new" exam was to be given! NO "F", No failure for the COURSE, no 'suspension', NOTHING really was done. FACT!!!!! Those kids openly cheated, got caught, and all they had to do was get the extra attention and the TEACHER got the penalty of re-writing a NEW exam and the TEACHER also got penalized and forced to stay after school, while the CHEATERS even got FULL CREDIT for CHEATING! 
So don't give me this...the older set had the 'same common practice' crap...sure SOME cheated, but they PAID A PRICE...today this is NOT the case. 
Divisive my butt...SOMETHING needs to be done to put the "honor code" back into place...because right now, there is seemingly only "honor" amongst THIEVES! Take it while the getting is good!
CHEATING is NOT looked upon as anything all that serious these days....in the past it was TERRIBLE to be caught cheating and they knew the price they would pay for it.

Don't believe it? Then READ THE FACTS!So don't gimme this, "the older generations" had the "same" common practice...cuz they didn't... or at least they were smart enough NOT to get caught and pay the price for it!

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1N1-1084915632D6D4BE.html

Don't believe it? Then READ THE FACTS! http://www.glass-castle.com/clients/www-nocheating-org/adcouncil/research/cheatingbackgrounder.html 

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-04-05/us/highschool.cheating_1_plagiarism-cheating-students?_s=PM:fyi

http://www.glass-castle.com/clients/www-nocheating-org/adcouncil/research/cheatingfactsheet.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/US/cheating_poll_040429.html

THis one doesn't surprise me, but you might be surprised by it:

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2009/06/18/students-say-using-tech-to-cheat-isnt-cheating/

http://privateschool.about.com/cs/forteachers/a/cheating_2.htm

field14 (Tom D.)


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

Field, I like your style.:thumbs_up


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> Beg to differ...there USED TO BE an "honor code" within our schools and society. In the schools, *you violated said "honor code" by CHEATING*, you received a FAILING GRADE for the COURSE, not just the "test" or item you copied or cheated upon. You *violated the "honor code" in college...and you were tossed out on your ear, period*!
> There was strong accountability for your actions...and *CHEATING was a low as it went...OUT you went.* *You plagiarized*...you were busted and received the failure for it.
> Now, this is FACT...since* I've dealt with it back in the 1960's when I first started teaching*..>WITH an *"honor code" in place where CHEATING was dealt with by both a Failing grade in "CITIZENSHIP"* (THAT failing grade was dealt with sternly by parents, by the way), AND the Failing grade for the COURSE...not just *what you were caught cheating on*. *THIS IS FACT, and not fiction*. I know; I was there and the "honor code" was in place.
> 
> ...


Field...I highlighted what you said about times long ago...as it applied to the "older set". Now go back and read, slowly, so you understand what I said...everythin I said you have agreed with about cheating...you know...the fact that it is nothing new...has been going on for a really long time...all of the bolded part of what I quoted talks about cheating from times long ago.

Really...cheating is nothing new...and you agree with it...all the wqhile telling me that I am wrong even though you actually agree/admit that cheating is nothing new...

The public education system...a much more specific thing...but what you have said verifies everything I said about cheating...it has always and will always exist. The ramifications for it may have changed...but of course, the ramifications are decided by the "older set" (the people that long ago may have cheated...the bolded part from what you wrote) Is that the fault of the "younger set"? Why is the "younger set" at fault for decisions made by the "older set"? Ah yes...the public school systems...beasts of their own being...so riddled with problems many a dissertation could be written. But see...even in your response disagreeing with me...you agreed...cuz you acknowledged that cheating is nothing new...

Let's also remember that the "older set" has now determined that such offensive things as butter knives constitute weapons that are woorthy of suspension. Dare a kid living in a rural, or any other area, bring a shotgun to school so they can go hunting after...that obviously intend to kill the entire school...Yep...more rulkes established by the much wiser "older set"...or simple answeres and resposes to simple yet complex problems, that work in such a way that the "older set" doesn't have to engage in any type of objective thought process...it's much easier that way...

Divisive...yes...when you imply that people belonging to some specific group are prone to doing something that is bad/wrong, whatever, it is divisive. The "younger set" is prone to cheating...they must be watched closer...as your post implies...even though your subsequent post acknowledges that the "older set" is equally guilty of cheating...

Speaking of cheating...how old is MV? How about Barry Bonds, McGuire and the rest of the lot...yep...adults when they cheated...Hell...Bill Clinton cheated...

Perhaps I have stumbled onto something...comprehension, it is a wonderful thing.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

off the tracks...


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

From the ASA Forum...

The ASA Competition Committee has completed their review of the range finder controversy from Texas. It is their conclusion that the individual involved will have all scores from his 2012 season vacated, and in addition he will be suspended from future ASA Pro/Am and Federation competition for the foreseeable future.

The results for LA and FL will be reposted based on this decision, and the ASA will amend the payouts based on these new results. The SOY standings will also reflect this correction. 

We want to thank the committee for their diligence in reaching this decision in this very unfortunate situation. 

[email protected]


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

ABTABB said:


> From the ASA Forum...
> 
> The ASA Competition Committee has completed their review of the range finder controversy from Texas. It is their conclusion that the individual involved will have all scores from his 2012 season vacated, and in addition he will be suspended from future ASA Pro/Am and Federation competition for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


Ouch!!! Sounds almost like a lifetime ban to me. I applaude the ASA for the manner in which they said what the decision in a descretionable manner but making it plan that cheating will not be put up with at any level.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

ABTABB said:


> From the ASA Forum...
> 
> The ASA Competition Committee has completed their review of the range finder controversy from Texas. It is their conclusion that the individual involved will have all scores from his 2012 season vacated, and in addition he will be suspended from future ASA Pro/Am and Federation competition for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


Hey...I said something like that, and no I am not a CC member. :wink:



rjharcher said:


> Ouch!!! Sounds almost like a lifetime ban to me. I applaude the ASA for the manner in which they said what the decision in a descretionable manner but making it plan that cheating will not be put up with at any level.


Certainly an indeterminate disqualification...with enough of a carrot out there to let him back in based on his actions.

Am afraid though that his kid is the one who potentially may lose the most...


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

Thank You, to the ASA for handling this the way you did. I believe this will be a good example to others who think about cheating in the future. I am proud of the ASA for doing the right thing and handing down the appropriate resolution.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3-D Junkie said:


> Thank You, to the ASA for handling this the way you did. I believe this will be a good example to others who think about cheating in the future. I am proud of the ASA for doing the right thing and handing down the appropriate resolution.


Uh-oh. We agree on something. What do we do now?:wink:


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Uh-oh. We agree on something. What do we do now?:wink:


We????? Is there a mouse in your pocket???Based on the posts I have read Tony I don't think the AT lynch mob shares any of the views that you have expressed in regards to the MV incident that would be considered agreeable. The water does not always need to be muddied with liberal views. Some things are black and white. No trial necessary. MV is a liar and a cheat plain and simple. Eye for an eye is what I say. No need for life sentences just so the taxpayers can foot the bill for the misfits of society. Swing em from the gallos.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> We????? Is there a mouse in your pocket???Based on the posts I have read Tony I don't think the AT lynch mob shares any of the views that you have expressed in regards to the MV incident that would be considered agreeable. The water does not always need to be muddied with liberal views. Some things are black and white. No trial necessary. MV is a liar and a cheat plain and simple. Eye for an eye is what I say. No need for life sentences just so the taxpayers can foot the bill for the misfits of society. Swing em from the gallos.


Come on Irish, slow your roll for a second. My "we" was obviously directed @ 3d junkie and his comment regarding ASA because I approve/support both his comment and ASA's ruling. You chose to interject yourself and try to make this something else.

I obviously don't care whether you like(d) my opinion regarding this whole thing or not; during investigation and now in the ruling. But am I to take it that you don't support the ruling since MV isn't "swinging from the gallows?"


Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

I bet he is shooting at the next tournament or shortly there after. It may not be an ASA shoot but he will return. He has no shame in coming back.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Come on Irish, slow your roll for a second. My "we" was obviously directed @ 3d junkie and his comment regarding ASA because I approve/support both his comment and ASA's ruling. You chose to interject yourself and try to make this something else.
> 
> I obviously don't care whether you like(d) my opinion regarding this whole thing or not; during investigation and now in the ruling. But am I to take it that you don't support the ruling since MV isn't "swinging from the gallows?"
> 
> ...


ttt


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## 3-D Junkie (Sep 13, 2005)

FishAlaska said:


> I bet he is shooting at the next tournament or shortly there after. It may not be an ASA shoot but he will return. He has no shame in coming back.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


 I don't know about that. He would be smart to leave 3-D competition alone. Maybe he will shoot an IBO tournament, but I think he will be under the microscope there too.
Everyone will be watching every thing he does.


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