# Right handed shooter hitting left with heavy points



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

jim p said:


> I went from 150 grain points at 206 fps to 300 grain points and started hitting 6" left and of course low.


Why did you do this?? This is slower than my indoor bow.... Have you considered that with such in increase in point weight (assuming no other changes) you may now be way underspined???


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I wanted a better foc. 

My bow is 45 lbs pull and these tips are on triple x arrows. So the spine is probably still on the stiff side.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Wow, my new arrows only weigh 300 grains! 

I would really have to +1 the spine thing. Even if you are still over-spined, you sighted in with a WAY over spine and instead of being off you may actually be closer to "correct." Guess that all depends on spine orientation and which way stiff/weak tends to drift (I always forget). 

Hope you'll share the old and new FOCs because my curiosity has reached 8/9 lives on the cat scale.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

jim p said:


> I wanted a better foc. My bow is 45 lbs pull and these tips are on triple x arrows. So the spine is probably still on the stiff side.


I still suspect you're dynamically underspined for your bow tune and you just blew by your bow's sweet spot. What advantage do you hope to achieve by cutting your arrows' speed so much to gain an unusually high FOC? It sounds like you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

Yes, generally a somewhat higher FOC can be a benefit if shooting in the wind or if you need extra force to minimize glance outs, but to go all hog wild with point weight while sacrificing spine, speed, and trajectory for an outdoor game has me shaking my head.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I am confused. With all the arrows available why hinder yourself with a heavy arrow to start with and then add even more weight? Hey, just because some all great archer is using heavy points ( high FOC) doesn't mean it's good for you. If you've followed along in here you may have noticed my arrows have a FOC of 6.04% and do a bang up job on Indoor spots and 5 spot X ring accurate out to 40 yards (my max distance in ASA). Do real well out to 50 yards, longest I've shot in a long time.

I shoot arrows of .355" in diameter and are .400 and .500 spine. Arrows setups I have; CXL Pro 150s (.500) with 90 grs points. CXL 250s (.400) with 86 gr points. Muddy Outdoors HT3s (.400) with 80 grs points. Deer Crossing Archery Target (.500) with 100 gr points. I have a half dozen Absolute 22s with more spine (.350) with 147 gr points.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am just goofing around with the heavy arrows. I plan on only shooting dots. For out door 3d these arrows would never work for me.

I am still wondering why the arrows hit to the left with the heavy points.

One reason that I wanted to try the heavy points is that I am shooting terrible. I have a 6" left to right spread at 20 yards and I just can't figure out what is causing this. So I am grabbing at straws.


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

Short answer:

Don't blame the arrows.








Slightly longer answer:
I might believe you if you were grouping and the group moved. I'd leave the arrows alone and work on form, GRIP, release, follow through, etc...


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

jim p said:


> I am just goofing around with the heavy arrows. I plan on only shooting dots. For out door 3d these arrows would never work for me.
> 
> I am still wondering why the arrows hit to the left with the heavy points.
> 
> One reason that I wanted to try the heavy points is that I am shooting terrible. I have a 6" left to right spread at 20 yards and I just can't figure out what is causing this. So I am grabbing at straws.


No offence but if I had a 6" spread at 20 yards, I'd drop some money on a coach instead of making equipment changes. There has to be something going on with the guy behind the bow and no amount of equipment changes is going to fix that. If you don't have access to a shop with a good coach or some advanced local shooters to ask for help, you may try taking some video of yourself shooting and post them for people on here to offer advice. 

Anytime I hear that someone has groups that are very wide, I think inconsistent grip, anchor, face contact and grabbing for the bow. Even the most out of tune bow will group arrows, I prove that to my customers all the time when they come in saying, "this bow won't group". If the shooter does their job, any bow will group.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The good news is that I don't shoot for a living.

You guys know more about archery than any one single coach would ever learn. I have been working on this problem for 4 years now and I am still where I was. I may just have to accept that I am not going to get any better but I will keep trying as long as I can pull a bow.

I have been shooting for 45 years and I don't remember having this problem until I bought a certain bow 4 years ago. I consider this bow my training tool because it seems so hard to shoot. But like everyone says it is not the bow it is the operator. I am determined to shoot this bow down the middle.

I am just going to shoot for now. If I stumble onto something that helps great if not then no big deal. 

Thanks for the comments. You guys are dead on target.


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

What is this "training bow"that is giving you so much grief?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Years back and maybe still, said was a heavier arrow would hit left. I've seen it once, a 40 pound Bowtech shooting Victory X Killers with 150 points, which was a 100 grs heavier than what he was shooting.... The only time I tried to see how spine was effect I went from a 80 gr glue-in point to a 192 gr point and only had to adjust for elevation (20 yards).


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

jim p said:


> I have a 6" left to right spread at 20 yards and I just can't figure out what is causing this. So I am grabbing at straws.


Now that is a totally different ball game. I agree with the others, I'd definitely look to the shooter and not the equipment for this issue. Getting some good hands on coaching could be an invaluable tool that will teach you things about your current form and execution you can take to other shooting systems that may be a little finicky for you. 

I'd also recommend you not continue to blindly hack away with this bow without some coaching so you do not pick up serious bad habits in the process. If this is your only bow, get a coach to learn to shoot it. If it is a spare bow, put the thing away for a while and shoot your regular bow to get back into the groove.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I think that I found the problem. I have been using a 1/32" peep trying to make it easier to center the pin in the peep. This morning I stick a 3/32" peep in the string and I was able to see the whole scope. The first thing that I noticed was that the bubble was not level.

I leveled the bubble and then sighted in. Once sighted in I decided to roll the bubble out of center by one bubble width. The arrow went 3" off the the side. I then rolled the bubble to the other side and the arrow goes 3" off to the other side. When I kept the bubble centered the arrows were going down the middle. 

I guess that with these arrows going only around 160 fps that a little tilt in the bow makes a big difference due to so much arch in the arrows flight.

A little more shooting should tell the story. It seems that sometimes the little things that I forget or think that I would never be doing just sneak up a take a big bite out of the behind.

My training bow is a 2010 pearson advantage. Anything that you can think of I have done to this bow trying to get it to bare shaft tune and to not shoot left and right. I finally changed my grip and got the bow to bare shaft tune and now it looks like keeping the bow level will solve the left and right hits. I have 4 years of post on here about my struggles with this bow. It appears that when you have a bow with limited adjustments that it is best for the archer to bite the bullet and adjust himself to the bow.

Thanks for all the help and for listening to all the whining.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

ShootingBlind said:


> Wow, my new arrows only weigh 300 grains!
> 
> I would really have to +1 the spine thing. Even if you are still over-spined, you sighted in with a WAY over spine and instead of being off you may actually be closer to "correct." Guess that all depends on spine orientation and which way stiff/weak tends to drift (I always forget).
> 
> Hope you'll share the old and new FOCs because my curiosity has reached 8/9 lives on the cat scale.


The foc went from 14% to 20%. With 150 grain points the arrows weigh 440 grains. So with the 300 grain points the arrows should come in at 590 grains. With my 45 lb bow maybe this arrow is not too light. I wouldn't want the bow to seem like it had been dry fired.

My shooting today was the best that it has been in years. If I keep shooting like today my confidence will increase which should lead to even better shooting.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

????? 45 draw weight.... Duh, IBO for your arrow figures to be 225 grs total... How could it possibly seem like a dry fire? My retired Ole War Horse, a 2000 Hoyt UltraTec, was set to 62 pounds and flinging max 325 gr arrows all it's competition time at 295 fps. It's still as accurate and fast as it ever was. 

On a side note, I've already thought.......... skip it....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the heavy arrows and high FOC isn't the problem. any combination of arrow and bow will shoot the same arrow to the same POI , regardless of spine or weight of the set of arrows (given they are the same within each set of arrows) , because, with any combination, the reaction is the same within that combination. the problem lies in what happens when the specific combination is in the shooters' hands. spine tuning has a lot more to do with shooter idiosyncrasies (grip, release process, reaction to the shot and follow through) than any equipment related issue, with today's truly center shot bows.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the heavy arrows ad high FOC isn't the problem. any combination of arrow and bow will shoot the same arrow to the same POI , regardless of spine or weight, because with any combination, the reaction the same within that combination. the problem lies in what happens with the combination in the shooters' hands. spine tuning has a lot more to do with shooter idiosyncrasies (grip, release process, reaction to the shot and follow through) than any equipment related issue, with today's truly center shot bows.
when I was shooting spots competitively, I shot full length cobalt 2512's with 246 gr. points at 47 lbs. they flew like darts and if did my job, they in one hole. some of the pros were shooting as little as 39 lbs, with the same arrow.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks Ron. These arrows are flying great. I shot better today than I have in years and the arrows were finding the vegas X quite often. I still made some bad shots by forcing the shot. Now that I have things working, I will eventually stop forcing the shots as my confidence builds. When I did things right, I usually had an X. That is a great feeling.

Sonny I was kidding about the dry fire. These arrows weight about 13 grains per pound of pull so maybe I wont have to worry about the bow coming apart. It is not safe to shoot bows at 5 grains per pound. If it was safe then we would not be seeing any bows with broken limbs and other failures.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Years back and maybe still, said was a heavier arrow would hit left. I've seen it once, a 40 pound Bowtech shooting Victory X Killers with 150 points, which was a 100 grs heavier than what he was shooting....The only time I tried to see how spine was effect I went from a 80 gr glue-in point to a 192 gr point and only had to adjust for elevation (20 yards).


It's been a while, but pretty sure I also shot from 30 yards and only had to adjust for elevation. Windage remained the same throughout.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jim p said:


> Thanks Ron. These arrows are flying great. I shot better today than I have in years and the arrows were finding the vegas X quite often. I still made some bad shots by forcing the shot. Now that I have things working, I will eventually stop forcing the shots as my confidence builds. When I did things right, I usually had an X. That is a great feeling.
> 
> Sonny I was kidding about the dry fire. These arrows weight about 13 grains per pound of pull so maybe I wont have to worry about the bow coming apart. It is not safe to shoot bows at 5 grains per pound. If it was safe then we would not be seeing any bows with broken limbs and other failures.


A bunch of the broken limbs and failures came from the coming of the parallel limb bows. Limbs shorter, twisted more for their length and shorter ata bows that promoted more twist. The older "rocket bows" with conventional angled limbs didn't suffer any where near as bad. My old UltraTec I noted above, 5.242 grs. of arrow weight per pound of draw weight year in and year out and not one failure. Again, conventional angled limbs of the time and 38 3/8" ata.

Safe? Virtually all bow companies today warranty their bows to 5 grs per pound of draw weight. The IBO still has 5 grs per pound of draw weight for bows faster than 290 fps (was 280 fps) and under 5 grs for bows slower than 290 fps. High Country Archery still today warranties their bows with arrows under 5 grs per pound of draw weight. "THE FASTEST BOWS UNDER WARRANTY!" HCA's Extreme is rated 355 fps at IBO and 405 fps using their Speed Pro Arrow.
The IBO is the only organization I know of that has a arrow weight restriction. The NFAA and ASA have speed limits. As such, for ASA, if I want to use a 3.5 gr arrow per pound of draw weight I may legally do so. Yep, voids my warranty, but that's my problem..


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You are 100% correct.

As I got older I needed a lower draw weight bow. So I took my 60 lb advantage with a 37" ata and long strung it so that it is now 39" ata and 50 lb.

Bows have IBO speed ratings but no company will say drop the weight on the arrows as low as it takes to achieve this rating. Except maybe HCA. Have you ever wondered why it is ok for a 34" draw length guy to shoot 5 grains per pound which allows the bow to shoot above the IBO speed rating but a 29" draw length guy is not allowed to drop arrow weight to just shoot IBO rated speed without voiding his warranty. 

I think that IBO limits the arrow weight to 5 grains per pound of pull or you can opt to not shoot over a certain speed. You get to choose which case will give you the most speed.

I am looking forward to another great day of shooting.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

There will always be questions of IBO and now Hoyt's ATA rating and ATA (formerly the AMO). The AMO had their own arrow limits. Look at crossbows, 175 pounds of draw weight and a 422 gr arrow and they have warranties. 2.41 grs per pound of draw weight!
So we had AMO (not the organization) and IBO ratings at one time and given. Now, if you want a AMO rating you have to call the bow manufacturer.

The IBO doesn't have a speed limit, just no less than 5 grs per pound of draw weight. Your rig shoots 340 fps IBO or faster your bow your rig is legal...Only if you can't reach 290 fps is when you are allowed to use a lighter arrow. 
You hear complaints of IBO events, not bows blowing up


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, wrong button and all didn't take.

Additional;
People don't even know what AMO is. AMO; Still the same stupid 30" of draw, 60 pounds of draw weight and a 540 gr arrow. 

How has 30" of draw remained in any of the equations when the average white male in the U.S. has a draw length right at 28"? 

So give credit to the ASA and NFAA with their speed limits that give some manner of leveling the field.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

do you check your BS at different distances. Here is why I ask. a couple years ago, one of my more prominent club members got a new set up from Hoyt. His original set up was an RX recurve at about 47 pounds, His new set up was the less-deflexed HPX at over 50 pounds. His X10s at 70M (IIRC) showed WELL TUNED with the heavier set up-the BS was in the group but with the lighter bow, it showed rather weak. How could that be? well I consulted with Don Rabska who forgets more about bow tuning each day than many of us will know. He told my archer to shoot the BS at a different distance. 

Bingo, the BS was even worse (rather right) with the heavier bow which is expected but sometimes a poorly chosen arrow spined BS will oscillate so much that at some point it will actually group with the BS given a false indication of a good tune. we figured this after watching the BS Fly-it looked like a crazed ferret on acid as it flew.


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