# Beiter Plunger



## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I was going to replace my old plunger with a newer one and decided to go wth the Beiter (http://www.lancasterarchery.com/beiter-plunger.html). Does anyon know what length works best for Hoyt Risers or does it matter? They list the following:

17.5-24.5 mm (Short)
29.5-32.5 mm (Long)


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## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

If you send an email to Beiter ( [email protected] ) with your riser model, they will respond with the proper length for either a stick-on or bolt-down type rest.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I've got a Formula RX riser, and the shorter Beiter was the correct size for it.


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

gmx, short


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## Monumental11 (Jul 26, 2012)

Wish I'd known that earlier.


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

Hpx short


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

what risers use the long size? or is the long for special rests?


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## DIV (Apr 12, 2012)

Matrix, short and I just switched to a GMX and the same short works great (so sar)


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

icehaven said:


> what risers use the long size? or is the long for special rests?


I'm suspecting that the long one may be for wrap around arrow rests where the plunger also holds the rest in place like this one:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/aae-free-flyte-elite-arrow-rest-silver-lh.html


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## Shellylhf (Aug 4, 2012)

Short for HPX means 17.5-23mm right?, cause 17.5-24.5mm is not available


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## barking mad (Oct 17, 2006)

Bob Furman said:


> I'm suspecting that the long one may be for wrap around arrow rests where the plunger also holds the rest in place like this one:
> 
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/aae-free-flyte-elite-arrow-rest-silver-lh.html


This is correct. I have a Hoyt Matrix riser with a Spigarelli wrap-around rest and use a long Beiter plunger.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Shellylhf said:


> Short for HPX means 17.5-23mm right?, cause 17.5-24.5mm is not available


In the end youre talking about 1.5 millimeters haha. I guess it would matter if you are purchasing from somewhere other than Lancaster. Lancaster only has Short or Long, it doesnt state the actual measurement in the product selection, it is only in the description.

And yes, you would get a short for the HPX riser if you arent using a wraparound.


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

I have a Nexus with Spiragelli ZT wrap around rest and Beiter recommended a medium ;Lancaster does not carry medium and I got mine from Alt Services. I would have a use a short one with a longer plunger if needed.


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## agillator (Sep 11, 2011)

Hunter Dave said:


> If you send an email to Beiter ( [email protected] ) with your riser model, they will respond with the proper length for either a stick-on or bolt-down type rest.


Just a head's up that this is contrary to my (single) experience. To wit, I got a wrong recommendation (Forged + with AAE Champion II rest) from Beiter regarding plunger length resulting in purchasing one that was substantially too long. No doubt I could have sent it back to Alt with Beiter's blessing but I needed it when I received it so I fabricated a spacer to make it work. You may be better off getting your advice from an ATer familiar with your riser and having a similar rest.


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## barking mad (Oct 17, 2006)

To elaborate:

with the Spigarelli ZT rest on a Matrix riser the length needed from the locking nut to the plunger tip is 27 mm, with my setup. 
A standard 25,5-29,5 mm plunger fits this the best. 

But I can also achieve the same with a 17,5-25,5 plunger that has been fitted with a longer (medium, black) tip and a slim 7 mm locking nut. This is my spare. The modular nature of the Beiter offers great flexibility.

http://www.wernerbeiter.com/en/informations/datasheets/Plunger_GB.pdf


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## MagneticLobster (Dec 24, 2012)

I spent some time this week trying to understand which Beiter plunger was right.

Bob, if you have an existing plunger, take it out and measure the distance from the tip to where it touches the outside of the riser (or where it touches the outside of the arrow rest in case you are using a wrap-around arrow rest). You'll need a plunger whose adjustment range includes that distance! On the Beiter data sheets (on their web site), this is the distance labeled as "A".

(It also seems to me that if you tune your bow using the matchstick method, then you'll also need for your plunger to cover that distance as well.)

The different "models" of the Beiter plunger vary this distance range by using different combinations of (a) plunger length (long or short), (b) plunger nut (the 7mm nut has 3mm of adjustment range, the 11mm nut has 4mm of adjustment range), and (c) the length of the pin (there are 5 different lengths: 34, 36, 38, 42, 44 mm; I believe the first 3 are intended for use with the short plunger and the last 2 with the long plunger).

There are more combinations than those offered by Lancaster. The Beiter data sheets list the different options.

I presume that one could also just stick a washer in between the plunger and the bow to decrease the distance, though it would seem to be better to buy the right length in the first place.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

MagneticLobster said:


> (It also seems to me that if you tune your bow using the matchstick method, then you'll also need for your plunger to cover that distance as well.)


Match stick tuning!!! 

Who spends $100+ on a button then sticks Matchsticks in it!!! 

Please don't do this it's not good for the plunger and your arrows won't like it either (Think banging you beloved X10's off the side of a tree and see what happens)

Sorry rant over 

Back on topic Beiter does not make it clear which button fits which riser for a reason. If you are spending that much on equipment you will be a serious archer Right and you will measure every setting to the nearest mm or less so you will already know what length you'll need. So out with the ruler, pen and paper. 

This is all well and good if you have a riser to measure in the first place


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

dwaa archer said:


> who spends $100+ on a button then sticks matchsticks in it!!!


Bahahaha!!!


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## beerbudget (Feb 5, 2011)

Two years ago I planned to put together a super duper ILF rig and bought the components slowly as funds permit. Got a long Beiter plunger because everyone says it was the best. Well, I finally got around to assembling my prized bow and lo and behold the long Beiter doesn't fit into my Samick riser. Called up Lancaster and explained the situation to them. To make the long story short, Lancaster agreed to exchange my long Beiter for a short one ... two years after the fact.

The moral of the story: LANCASTER ARCHERY SUPPLY ROCKS!!!


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

DWAA Archer said:


> Match stick tuning!!!
> 
> Who spends $100+ on a button then sticks Matchsticks in it!!!


smart people.

buttons are for compensating for minor inconsistencies from shot to shot by the archer. tuning should be done with a stiff button (thus the matchstick) so the button doesn't hide any fundamental tuning errors.


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## MagneticLobster (Dec 24, 2012)

I was hoping to hear more thoughts on this. I infer from "Bahahaha!!!" that Arsi also advises against this method.

Yet some of the the tuning guides (including the popular "Tuning for Tens") recommend the match stick approach. This is the first I've heard that it's ill-advised because of potential equipment damage.

I'm somewhat surprised to hear that a plunger is designed to withstand the force of the arrow -- but only if the spring is in place to mitigate this force. I haven't observed any damage to the Shibuya plunger I'm using, but maybe I've just been lucky so far, or perhaps the Beiter plunger is much more fragile.

But I'm just a beginner. I'm sure others have put a lot more thought into this and have some first hand experience with damage (or lack thereof) caused by a match stick.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

caspian said:


> smart people.
> 
> buttons are for compensating for minor inconsistencies from shot to shot by the archer. tuning should be done with a stiff button (thus the matchstick) so the button doesn't hide any fundamental tuning errors.


Apart from getting bits of match inside the smooth barrel of your button, you will also be hitting a small area of the side of the arrow against a now unmoving surface with the full weight of your bow. You must have seen a beginner smash an arrow off the leg of a target bent and or broken arrows often result, thats what you are recreating with blocking the button.

Maybe not so smart. 

Times have moved on there are lots of things on net forums that people used to do in the past this is one of them and it should be left in the past.

FITA gets the leading international coaches together and they produce manuals on how to shoot and tune a bow if they are saying do it thats fine if they are not recommending this way of tuning then there has to be a reason.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

DWAA Archer said:


> Apart from getting bits of match inside the smooth barrel of your button, you will also be hitting a small area of the side of the arrow against a now unmoving surface with the full weight of your bow. You must have seen a beginner smash an arrow off the leg of a target bent and or broken arrows often result, thats what you are recreating with blocking the button.
> 
> Maybe not so smart.
> 
> ...


Times have moved on but fur the most part we are shooting the save basic recurve design as those back 30 years ago. Although in today's age you may want to use something different than a match stick. Besides being something that could possibly break off and leave pieces behind, I don't think most people carry these around. Oddly enough if you have bought s complete Beiter plunger,bit will have extra springs and plunger pieces. By removing the spring there is room in the Beiter plunger for two plunger pieces. Once in place just snug it down.


In regards to the arrow hitting a unmoving surface. Please take a look st the average bare bow and/or long bow.


Happy shooting


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

DWAA Archer said:


> Apart from getting bits of match inside the smooth barrel of your button


if you are that worried about it - pipe cleaner.



> you will also be hitting a small area of the side of the arrow against a now unmoving surface with the full weight of your bow.


actually, a correctly spined arrow should be moving predominantly _away_ from the button; it's issues like incorrect spining that attempting to tune with the button soft can hide.

but hey, tune how you like - I'm sure your competitors will thank you.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

MagneticLobster said:


> I was hoping to hear more thoughts on this. I infer from "Bahahaha!!!" that Arsi also advises against this method.
> 
> Yet some of the the tuning guides (including the popular "Tuning for Tens") recommend the match stick approach. This is the first I've heard that it's ill-advised because of potential equipment damage.
> 
> ...


The idea that locking up a button with a matchstick can damage your arrows is really a non runner. While true that a locked up button will greatly increase the force the button exerts on the arrow shaft the only practical effect is that the arrow is bent. It's no different from shooting say a stick bow, no arrow damage, you just need a differently spined arrow.

If you have any understanding of arrow mechanics or tuning it's clear that locking up a button with a matchstick is as much use as sticking a feather in your b**. The mystery is why anyone came up with the idea in the first place. There have always been fairly daft ideas floating around in archery and you can usually work out what the illogical basis for them was. If someone talks about building a fence around the world to prevent people falling off it's sort of obvious that they believe the world is flat. In a similar way you can the guess the (illogical) reasons for stories about arrow nodes or staggering fletchings. With the matchstick in the button idea I've never come up with or seen any else come up any illogical basis for the idea - you just seem to get meaningless rhetoric.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

PS the secret with "Tuning for Tens" is that you follow the method (not the greatest idea because as somebody mentioned easily superceded by the FITA recurve tuning guide) but you miss out the "matchstick" element you will end up with exactly the same result. Once you put the spring back you basically restart from scratch.


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## MagneticLobster (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks to those of you who have written to comment on this subject. I appreciate the dialog.

For my "match stick," I actually keep a small cylindrical piece of plastic in the bag with my plunger wrenches, so the idea of bits of wood being left behind in the plunger hadn't occurred to me.

The guide I've followed is the 2007 "Recurve Bow Tuning Blank Shaft Method" by the Archery Australia Coaching and Standards Committee. PDF here: http://www.sunsetcoastarchers.com/pdf/Reading Material/Recurve Bow Tuning.pdf

On page 5 of this guide there is some discussion of the motivation, but it's true that they don't go very deep into the theory. The last page of the guide indicates that the match stick method originated from U.S. olympic archery coach Dick Tone. The book "Mastering Bow Tuning" by James Park apparently describes the method at length, but I don't have this book, so I don't know if it adequately addresses the underlying theory.

My understanding is that this approach (1) allows one to simply and accurately set center shot, and (2) ensures that draw weight is properly adjusted for the arrows. I find it appealing because of the simple approach to center shot adjustment, and because we're changing one variable at a time. Under the method, I don't adjust plunger stiffness until draw weight has been set.

In this guide, one doesn't start from scratch after the match stick step. At the end of the match stick step, the draw weight setting should be adjusted (and not altered in subsequent steps), and the sight windage should be aligned with center shot.

It worked well for me, but since I haven't followed the procedure dozens of times, I can't assess the extent to which I benefitted from dumb luck.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

precisely, thank you.


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## apprenticecoach (Dec 21, 2009)

For what its worth Dr James Park has probably produced more peer reviewed and published engineering papers on arrow behaviour over the last year or so than anyone else going around. It would take a lot to convince me that a method he endorses is logically wrong!

I think there was another thread on some of his work a few months ago.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

MagneticLobster said:


> I was hoping to hear more thoughts on this. I infer from "Bahahaha!!!" that Arsi also advises against this method.


Haha! I just thought it was hilarious the way he wrote it with all the exclamation marks 

I actually used the T4T guide quite a bit in the past. It just never worked well for me. I always ended up having a very stiff plunger and the setup was not forgiving at all for me. With center shot set dead center, locked plunger, my fletched and bare would group together. But once I threw a spring into it, I had to start using the extra hard spring to get the arrows back to where they were without touching the sight.

I eventually abandoned messing around with the plunger much. I have it on the medium spring (though Beiter calls this the "hard" spring), set to 5.3 and ive pretty much left that alone and tweaked other parts of my bow to get my grouping and arrow flight down.

Once again, there are TONS of ways to tune a bow. Take a look at the Australian method:

https://assets.imgstg.com/assets/console/document/documents/tip2recurvetuning.pdf

I even tried this a while back, and it worked ok as well. They suggest to not touch the plunger tension after using a stiff plunger and tune using center shot by changing the plunger position, rather than the plunger tension.

Basically pick a guide, stick to it, and then go out and shoot. At the end of the day, we are all right, as long as you can shoot well within your setup.



Bob Furman said:


> Oddly enough if you have bought s complete Beiter plunger,bit will have extra springs and plunger pieces. By removing the spring there is room in the Beiter plunger for two plunger pieces. Once in place just snug it down.


This is what I did when I was following the T4T guide. I just used another one of the millions of plunger tips Beiter gives you with a new plunger and tightened the barrel so its snug. Not so much because it will definitely break something, just enough to stop plunger movement.


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## Mega Man 415 (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, I'm getting this one. Should it be long then? On a SF premium plus riser.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/spig...urve-rest.html


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## BenConnor (Feb 15, 2013)

MagneticLobster said:


> The guide I've followed is the 2007 "Recurve Bow Tuning Blank Shaft Method" by the Archery Australia Coaching and Standards Committee. PDF here: http://www.sunsetcoastarchers.com/pdf/Reading Material/Recurve Bow Tuning.pdf
> 
> On page 5 of this guide there is some discussion of the motivation, but it's true that they don't go very deep into the theory. The last page of the guide indicates that the match stick method originated from U.S. olympic archery coach Dick Tone. The book "Mastering Bow Tuning" by James Park apparently describes the method at length, but I don't have this book, so I don't know if it adequately addresses the underlying theory.


You may be interested to know that James Park has done some further work on this (including producing a couple of really cute analysis programs) that appears to have modified his views on tuning slightly.

http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?28775-Recurve-bow-arrow-dynamic-behaviour

Quite fascinating (and useful): I admit to watching the wobbling arrows moving across my screen for about an hour


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Just to clear things up about tuning Here's a link to How FITA think a Recurve bow should be tuned.

http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/07%20Publications/02_downloads/Coaches_Manual_Lev2/11_Recurve_Equipment.pdf

This manual has been put together and agreed on by the worlds leading coaches from Korea, Europe and the US so if it's in there it's worth doing if it's not the you might want to have a rethink times do move on some people do not and neither do their scores 

And for those of you who do not believe node points exist have a look at this vid to see one clear the plunger before the arrow starts to bend.


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