# Tuning holding pattern



## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

How do you guys do it? Adjusting draw length, stabilizer weight, holding weight, etc.. to get the perfect hold? How much time do you put in each? And what exactly do you do or look for? I know the basics… big slow float means shorten draw, tight fast float means you can lengthen, bobbing low add rear weight, or remove front, etc. I get all of that. But when it comes to FINE tuning, as in adjusting with a twist at a time, what methods or reasons do you use? When tuning by adjusting the string, doesn't it mean you have to adjust the nock point and move/retie the peep every single time?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I divided this up into two parts.

1). Don't shoot arrows part. this is where I get my bow and my sight no stabs.
I adjust all the stuff to get my base line float at full draw. I'm looking for, small slow smooth.
I want it to float in and around on the 10 ring or the X on the 5 spot. I don't want it jumping at all.
again I'm not shooting just looking at how small it can get. then I add stabs and weights and I expect it to get better
still not shooting just looking. when I get happy with what I'm seeing I move to step2.
2). Now I am going to shoot arrows.
paying attention to what happens to my float while actually running my execution phase.
what I find out is I generate or introduce a lot of motion into my sight picture during my execution phase of my routine.
If your strong enough you can add more weight to the bow and cover up the excess motion.
I am older and I can't handle the heavy weights needed to cover my motion.

I'm In the process of re-learning a different shot routine, one which doesn't generate as much motion.
hopefully this will let me use a manageable weight system on my stabilizers when I'm done.

I was confused as to where all my movement was coming from, until I broke it down into the two parts. 
adjust your bow for not much motion in your sight picture, then adjust you for not much motion in your routine.

Watch Pagni from Italy, not a lot of weight on his bow, but his nickname is smooth..


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

buckshot087 said:


> How do you guys do it? Adjusting draw length, stabilizer weight, holding weight, etc.. to get the perfect hold? all of that is adjusted to get decent float. Each part contributes and they all have to work togetherHow much time do you put in each? it's up to the individual shoot and bow combination...some will tune faster than others...it's not uncommon to spend a couple months or so playing with stabalizer weight.And what exactly do you do or look for? a float that is smooth and consistent, something that is naturalI know the basics… big slow float means shorten draw, tight fast float means you can lengthen, bobbing low add rear weight, or remove front, etc. I get all of that. I go by results testing, not by X means Y. If my float is too vertical, I'll play with long rod weight but it might be DL, it might be side rod too. What ever it takes to fix the issue...that's what I go with But when it comes to FINE tuning, as in adjusting with a twist at a time, what methods or reasons do you use? I haven't found where 1 twist is making a difference yet...but when I do, again- Results testingWhen tuning by adjusting the string, doesn't it mean you have to adjust the nock point and move/retie the peep every single time? depends on how much you twist...but in general, yes- if you twist up/down the string, nock and peep will change their location


There is no magic to tuning and getting a great setup...it take time. No one can say, do XYZ and you're done tuning or you can get tuned in X amount of time. There are general rules of tumb that will limit the tuning such as general DL, basic setup, spine etc but beyond that, everyone is different.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

specifically on methods
1. lets take stabilizer- what I do to get this set is to do what Bees does- base bow first.
when I do stabilizer testing/tuning, all I'm interested in is float- long rod for vertical, side rods for L/R. I'll add a certain weight up front- pay attention to float, pay attention to groups. I keep adding weight til it's uncomfortable or groups/float are better....this can be done in a day but just to get the basics---fine tuning can be another month.

if I have a lot of weight, then I start moving it to the back bars....start the process again. Here it's results testing...but I'm shooting maybe 1000 shots per change... But that's me, and I'm to very good so weight changes take longer to show their effects on grouping.

The same thing applies to say holding weight-- I like a lot...for me, I find that I hold better with more weight--many target shooters find this same thing...but again, it takes shooting a bunch to find out what YOU like....you may like the feel of lower holding weight but your scores may show heavier is what works-- the opposite could easily be true as well.


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## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks. I have never started with a bare bow, I'll have to do that. I shoot everyday and I'm always experimenting. I've tried just about every configuration possible with my stabilizers, and draw length and holding weight. But I still feel like I have a long way to go. My thing is, once you get a "good" setup, how do you know when to keep tuning, or when to leave it alone and practice your shooting? The adjustments are infinite, so there is really no way to test EVERY configuration. My problem may be that I don't give it time to work. I'll change and shoot it for an hour then change it again. Also, by micro adjusting draw length, will there be a noticeable difference in movement, or do you just go by score over a period of time to see if its better?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

buckshot087 said:


> ... how do you know when to keep tuning, or when to leave it alone and practice your shooting?


For most shooters, this is going to be the better bet. 

I don't know that I could write out my process its so "touchy-feely". What I feel, what I see, I respond to. It takes time. If I make much change at all, I have to shoot it for a while to really know if its the right thing in the long run. 

If I can add any value here its one thing that keeps me in check.... DO NOT make equipment changes on your bad days. It is nearly impossible to make good equipment decisions when things are not working in us. I seek to fine tune my equipment only when I feel that I am running at the best of my ability. Doing otherwise will get us chasing out tail, applying band-aids...and in the long run we lose our "zero" (our feel for "normal).


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

When do you keep tuning? You really don't stop tuning...either you're tweaking equipment or your tweaking yourself. What you don't want to do is to spend time tweaking something that YOU can't tell a difference with. For example, shooting X10 arrows vs Carbon One's...if at 50yards you can only shoot an 8" group, you won't see a benefit to using X10's- no use in tuning those arrows. or if you can't get bare shafts to slap at 20 yards...no use in spending a lot of time yoke tuning--you won't see a difference...work on the shooter in this case.

Change, shoot an hour, change again....

that's changing too much too soon...you need to give yourself time to adapt to the change-- though some changes can be seen almost immediately...this would be the exception.

Once I get a decent setup, I don't touch it...I'll focus on me. For example- for the past few months I've been working on a torquing issue--always left. I've tweaked DL, Stabs etc. and have come to the conclusion that it's ME, only ME and I am the only one that can fix that, not a new stab, not changing DL...ME. Since I've taken that approach the past few weeks, my groups are coming in, my ability to call my shots has improved and the bad torquing is almost gone.

Can I do more tweaking on my stab- yes
can I do more tweaking on my tuning- yes
can I see a difference in scores if I do the above- NO...when I get to where my shots are a significant percentage higher bull count, I'll worry about the other stuff.

make a change- give it a few days to a week to see if it's going to work.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

One thing about most of the better shooters who I know is that they seldom show up with exactly the same set-up twice in a row. They are constantly tweeking this or trying that. Always looking for that extra point or two that will win the next tournament. 

However, the tweeking is usually with their back-up bow. When it's money time, they usually stick what has proven to work. 

I'd love to have the luxury of two identical bows. One to set up with the tried & true, and the other to experiment with. I'd also like to have the time to do all that experimenting. It sucks when real life gets in the way of archery 

As for a procedure or order for finding the best set-up, it's probably best to start without stabilizers, get it working well for you, then add stabilizers to enhance a good set-up. Much like fletching works best when it doesn't have to overcome poor tuning, stabilizers work best when they are improving good form, not trying to overcome or cover up bad form. (They aren't magic wands, regardless of the advertising  )

Allen


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## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

How can you tell when your holding weight is too much?


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## bowtecha (Feb 16, 2010)

Tagged


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

buckshot087 said:


> How can you tell when your holding weight is too much?


Holding weight is relative to the mass weight of the bow you’re shooting. For example, a bow with a mass weight of 4# and 18# of holding weight will “feel” like you’re holding much more than 18# when at full draw. Compare this to the same bow stacked up with 8-9# of mass weight will “feel” much closer to the holding weight of 18#. The search for the ideal holding weight is really a search for the ideal mass weight to holding weight ratio that: 1) lets you hold steady when executing your shot, and 2) allows you to shoot for prolonged periods of time without fatigue or added tension.

If you’re tiring quickly, feel tense or uncomfortable, are creeping off the wall when at full draw, then the holding weight and/or mass weight of your set up may be too high for you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> Holding weight is relative to the mass weight of the bow you’re shooting. For example, a bow with a mass weight of 4# and 18# of holding weight will “feel” like you’re holding much more than 18# when at full draw. Compare this to the same bow stacked up with 8-9# of mass weight will “feel” much closer to the holding weight of 18#. The search for the ideal holding weight is really a search for the ideal mass weight to holding weight ratio that: 1) lets you hold steady when executing your shot, and 2) allows you to shoot for prolonged periods of time without fatigue or added tension.
> 
> If you’re tiring quickly, feel tense or uncomfortable, are creeping off the wall when at full draw, then the holding weight and/or mass weight of your set up may be too high for you.


The mass ratio is only PART of the equation.

Been running bio-mechanics experiments.

Linkages.
Relative coordinate planes.
So far, the results are holding up.

HIGHER holding weight, as long as fatigue is not an issue,
is a good thing.

Higher holding weight,
will work better, for MOST folks,
with a higher total bow system weight...
combined with an aggressive shot process,
in line follow through reaction,
bow side and release side.

GENERALLY speaking.
CONCEPTUALLY speaking.

The one ADDED layer,
is relative coordinate systems.

Lower body cg
and upper body cg (center of gravity)...

my recent experiments
are finding a consistent pattern,
that adjusting lower body cg position (lateral translation)
has a marked effect on accuracy.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I've been reading some of those biomechanical posts and, honestly, have not yet developed a solid opinion of them. I can see where shifting the body's effective center of gravity to be more in line with or in opposition to the bow's center could be advantageous in certain conditions. However, I do not see how this could be applied across all shooting platforms.

The OP is from south-central VA and is in the heart of hilly 3D and field archery country, if he were to start gyrating his hips around while at full draw on a course, he'd likely find himself swooshing down the side of a mountain pretty quickly. If shooting a flat FITA target or indoor application, there may be some validity in your CG experiments that require further evaluation. 

However, this does not negate the fact that across the board, the performance ratio between mass and holding weight is pretty much an accepted archery standard albeit a very individualized process and finding the combination that works for one person is not going to translate, aside from generalizations, to another shooter. As an example, I have one ratio that I found to be effective for indoor shooting and another slightly different ratio for outdoor field, but both were derrived from the same basic principle.... :wink:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Where is this post? 

My knee-jerk response is that the hips belong in one spot; directly above the feet and under the shoulders. "Rocking the hips forward" (especially true on flat ground) is the lack of training or a product of draw too long and/or mass weight too high. It's a common bad habit that leads to a weak shoulder position.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

The latest I was referring to in my post is this one: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2208182&p=1069659063#post1069659063

Like I mentioned to Alan, the jury is still out for me on this concept. I was instructed to keep my weight evenly distributed over my feet as much as possible during the entire draw cycle, but I am old school and relatively new. There may be circumstances that could warrant changing this approach that I am not yet aware of.


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Great thread! Learned a lot so far, now it looks like I need to slowly start adding weight. 

I have a lot of left right sway, so if I understand what you all are saying It looks like v bars and slowly add weight till I stop moving?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> I've been reading some of those biomechanical posts and, honestly, have not yet developed a solid opinion of them. I can see where shifting the body's effective center of gravity to be more in line with or in opposition to the bow's center could be advantageous in certain conditions. However, I do not see how this could be applied across all shooting platforms.
> 
> The OP is from south-central VA and is in the heart of hilly 3D and field archery country, if he were to start gyrating his hips around while at full draw on a course, he'd likely find himself swooshing down the side of a mountain pretty quickly. If shooting a flat FITA target or indoor application, there may be some validity in your CG experiments that require further evaluation.
> 
> However, this does not negate the fact that across the board, the performance ratio between mass and holding weight is pretty much an accepted archery standard albeit a very individualized process and finding the combination that works for one person is not going to translate, aside from generalizations, to another shooter. As an example, I have one ratio that I found to be effective for indoor shooting and another slightly different ratio for outdoor field, but both were derrived from the same basic principle.... :wink:


No gyrating the hips during the draw cycle.

This positioning of the hips,
is the "ADDRESS" before you pull the bowstring,
just like in golf.

So far,
my biomechanical experiments are only for indoor shooting,
on level ground....to be absolutely clear.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> The latest I was referring to in my post is this one: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2208182&p=1069659063#post1069659063
> 
> Like I mentioned to Alan, the jury is still out for me on this concept. I was instructed to keep my weight evenly distributed over my feet as much as possible during the entire draw cycle, but I am old school and relatively new. There may be circumstances that could warrant changing this approach that I am not yet aware of.


Must do what works for you.

Evenly distributed weight
is the classic stance,
is very stable
works well...MOST TIMES.

What was fascinating to me,
was to have SOME folks, goto an UNEVEN weight balance,
left leg versus right leg,
BEFORE the bow is drawn...

a DIFFERENT set position,
a DIFFERENT "address" 
a UN-equal distribution of weight on both feet...(ONE leg supporting less weight....OTHER leg supporting more weight)

a SMALL 
an ON PURPOSE imbalance...

shooters still using their CUSTOMARY stance (alignment wise....foot spacing wise....)
all things exactly the same as always,
for a young shooter, very skinny, high school age...west coast
for an adult shooter, marathon runner, "our age"....east coast
for an adult shooter, not a marathon runner, ..... down under....

only change was to shift the belly button SIDEWAYS,
creating an ON PURPOSE un-equal weight balance..

a SMALL shift towards the release side ankle (for a RH shooter..this means belly button moves RIGHT....1 cm? 1/2-inch?...NOT MUCH)

this small shift SIDEWAYS towards the RELEASE side ankle,
had a cascade effect
with for SOME FOLKS,
a statistically significant improvement,
repeatable across multiple platforms (different folks)
and
across multiple disciplines (recurve AND COMPOUND).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> The latest I was referring to in my post is this one: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2208182&p=1069659063#post1069659063
> 
> Like I mentioned to Alan, the jury is still out for me on this concept. I was instructed to keep my weight evenly distributed over my feet as much as possible during the entire draw cycle, but I am old school and relatively new. There may be circumstances that could warrant changing this approach that I am not yet aware of.


ONLY one caveat.

All test subjects were male.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> The latest I was referring to in my post is this one: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2208182&p=1069659063#post1069659063
> 
> Like I mentioned to Alan, the jury is still out for me on this concept. I was instructed to keep my weight evenly distributed over my feet as much as possible during the entire draw cycle, but I am old school and relatively new. There may be circumstances that could warrant changing this approach that I am not yet aware of.


What was fascinating to me,
was that this sideways hip shift towards the RELEASE SIDE ankle,
created a cascade effect
because I was trying to address a BOW SHOULDER issue.

Collapsing bow shoulder,
in the recurve shooter case.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> The latest I was referring to in my post is this one: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2208182&p=1069659063#post1069659063
> 
> Like I mentioned to Alan, the jury is still out for me on this concept. I was instructed to keep my weight evenly distributed over my feet as much as possible during the entire draw cycle, but I am old school and relatively new. There may be circumstances that could warrant changing this approach that I am not yet aware of.


Then,
in the east coast male shooter,
"our age",
I was trying to address a "holding low" issue,
inter-mittent,
high scoring,
highly skilled...

and
the UN-equal weighting on the legs,
a SIDEWAYS shift towards the RELEASE side ankle,
again,
had a positive outcome
for what was essentially a collapsing bow shoulder syndrome,
albeit...combined with several other underlying issues.

So,
the MAGNITUDE of the sideways shift
is not COOKIE cutter,
the magnitude of the sideways shift
must be empirically derived for each shooter
to cultivate OPTIMUM results.

What fascinated me
was the cascade effect
across multiple body types
and the cross-disciplinary platforms.

So,
if something you try works ONLY twice,
meh
maybe got lucky.

It worked a third time,
all the way down under.

This "SIDEWAYS shift"
combined with a few other things,
improved the consistency for point of impact.

So,
will un-equal weighting on the legs work for EVERY shooter?
No.

Equal weight distribution on both legs
is the preferred,
reasonable and customary approach.

SHOULD work for most folks, in MOST cases,
standing on level ground,
shooting spots,
indoors.

No movement of the hips during the draw cycle.

I am only talking about the SET POSITION,
prior to pulling back on the bowstring.

A different approach to the "ADDRESS".....golf lingo for WHERE you position your CG,
(belly button) in relation to the ankles....BEFORE you start your backswing.

AGain,
ONLY for spots,
ONLY for indoors
ONLY for level ground,
ONLY for the SET position.

The sideways position of the CG,
appears to have a marked effect
on bow shoulder stability....for SOME people,
on LEVEL ground,
INDOORS,
when shooting SPOTS.

I am reporting my findings.
Use these CONCEPTS to further your OWN understanding
of your specific bio-mechanics
and see if you can improve your shooting.

Improving your shooting.

That is the common goal.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Since the other thread is trashed, maybe we can converse here. 

Alan, hip position is a basic element of classic t-form. To set this shoulder low, and guard against it breaking down during the shot, the shooter needs to remain upright. 

The tendency of the untrained is to rock those hips forward and lean back.... Both of which weaken the bow shoulder position by raising it. This will cause it to break down and to engage unwanted muscles.

So, it is entirely reasonable to expect a shooter who hasn't been trained otherwise to report back with reduced tension, less vertical pin motion and a longer shot window....with less drop outs...or high pushes as a byproduct of fighting a low pin (pin sinks as shoulder rises).

My coach prioritizes the bow shoulder. Form and shot are built to protect it against the forces of the bow and gravity. Hip location is part of it.....and has been for longer than my 20+ years of the sport.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> ONLY one caveat.
> All test subjects were male.


This may be key to the theory since naturally women carry their center of gravity much lower than men. 

Without seeing these shooters, I'd suspect that they were not using their core properly when going for the set position and instead of rotating from the waist to initiate the movement with the stronger back muscles, were, instead, shifting their weight forward from their hips to reach set. This would cause them to destabilize their front end as they went into the draw. As an end result, it would be very difficult to correct this destabilization as the draw cycle was carried out. 

Remember that old high school physics experiment…the one where a man and a woman both place a chair against a wall, lean forward at the waist until the tops of their heads are against the wall above the chair, then (without removing their heads from the wall) lift the chair and stand straight without bending their knees. Women can generally ace this test, while men struggle to keep their balance.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> This may be key to the theory since naturally women carry their center of gravity much lower than men.
> 
> Without seeing these shooters, I'd suspect that they were not using their core properly when going for the set position and instead of rotating from the waist to initiate the movement with the stronger back muscles, were, instead, shifting their weight forward from their hips to reach set. This would cause them to destabilize their front end as they went into the draw. As an end result, it would be very difficult to correct this destabilization as the draw cycle was carried out.
> 
> Remember that old high school physics experiment…the one where a man and a woman both place a chair against a wall, lean forward at the waist until the tops of their heads are against the wall above the chair, then (without removing their heads from the wall) lift the chair and stand straight without bending their knees. Women can generally ace this test, while men struggle to keep their balance.


For the recurve shooter,
only a sophomore, and showing early signs of rotator cuff damage,
on the bow side....the improvement in shoulder stability was amazing to see. Collapsing was gone.
Bow shoulder fatigue was improved greatly. Tall, light build, like a runner.

So,
in the adult shooter,
spots...target type guy,
he was holding low,
and the same adjustment had marked improvement...

hold was more steady,
holding low dis-appeared. The collapsing bow shoulder dis-appeared.

For the fella down under,
no obvious collapsing shoulder,
but,
I wanted to shrink his groups.

He shot a metric version of the American 900 round,
and shot a new personal best score,
so when this seeming small adjustment..

admittedly,
in three males,
I wanted to report my findings.

Level shooting,
either indoors
or outdoors.

Spots.


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## dcreighton (Jan 2, 2008)

Look forward to hearing more about this biomechanics stuff directly from Allen at his Lancaster Seminar but have my reservations based on "the norm" and what has always been the "best way to do it". The thing that I do like to see is that he challenges the norm. Sometimes the smallest things make the biggest difference. Sometimes with one person, sometimes with the majority. But I'm open to anyone that pushes and tries new stuff, whether they succeed or fail. It's a bit on the edge but look forward to seeing which way it falls… I know I do things differently then others and usually succeed, but sometimes when I fail I learn the most just because I tried something totally against the normal expectations.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

I have a few things to contribute to this. First, the OP. It can take months to figure out what is best for you. I am pretty good at feeling what my setup requires. I have trial and errored so much that i know how to do a process of elimination. As far as stabilizers, i could go on for pages. If you have any specific questions, feel free to pm me. Or ask here is fine. I have a basic test i use to check my draw length. I shoot 50 yards flat, down hill and then up hill. Which ever FITS the best tells me what to do. If it fits best flat, leave it alone. If it fits best downhill, shorten your draw a touch. Uphill, lengthen your draw a touch. I try to find a numbness to my setup. The bow is still but not heavy. I dont feel anything except the release against my fingers and the grip on my palm.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

Secondly, am i right that the biomechanics has only worked with an east coast, male, recurve shooter, indoors on flat ground? How east coast we talking? Is there a stretch of land you must live within? And will it work outdoors on flat ground? How about indoors with a slight slope to the concrete to guide water to the drain? What about a shemale? How about a cross dresser? Its a male but its INTENTIONS are female? 

Cmon alan, you gotta be laughing some? Saying "this guy kitchen sink tuned his comedy". I want you to be a great coach. So listen to the guys on AT that know their stuff. Do be so proud that you cannot benefit from us mortals.


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## bill_collector (Jul 5, 2009)

tagged for later


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## BearArcher1980 (Apr 14, 2012)

I can only speak from my experience and helping others with their holding patterns/float.
For me I set my bow up where there is no movement on release. My bow sits perfectly still. My float is nice and tight and slow. 
I have done this with hours of trying different weights and side bar positions and groupings.
I have argued with a few people that you can actually change your POI with sidebar weight and position of your side bar, then take them to the range and prove my point.
A lot of the understanding what I am doing EXACTLY is lost on me because I am so new to this sport and the fine tuning part.
I know from working with Alan how to get my draw length perfect for me by my float with a bare bow. Then moving on to the stabilizers and the modified French tuning exercises. During all of this is when I find that magical weight and angles for my bars.
Since I have 3 of the exact same bows setup exactly the same just for different arrows I know exactly where to start for weight and angles on my bars etc. Then I just bareshaft tune for the different arrows and bingo.
I know a lot of people don't have that luxury of having multiple bows of the same make and models etc. but it does help at least for me it has.
My end goal is to get my float nice and tight and slow and not drift left or right or up or down but just a nice slow circular motion around the X.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Here are the things that I personally look at when working on shrinking my float pattern, I have shot the same specialist for 3.5 years and have never messed with the draw length even one time.

1. Take all of the stab weight off and shoot with the stabs, you will hate the float pattern that you see. Then start adding weight to the front and rear stabs and keep shooting each time and sooner or later you will find a good combination.

2. Draw weight, I was a 70lb bow shooter for decades and finally I let go of the max poundage and right now 58 to 61 lbs gives me the best feel when shooting where I don't get tired and I feel fresh through out the shooting session.

3. Spectator shooting, spectator shooting is a padgett article that explains how to let go of commanding a shot completely. The moment that I became a spectator shooter myself I saw my float change into something special that I am proud of, you can read the article here on archery talk.

4. target panic, if you have any of the target panic issues lurking in your shooting you will never allow yourself to actually see your true float pattern because these issues will mask your float into something poor. I have a article that also explains these issues in a way that when you read the article you will either say I am guilty of this or not.

5. Your firing engine, the fact that I am working with thousands of guys here on archery talk with hinge shooting has forced me to become proficient at many firing methods. All of the firing methods out there get the job done, basically they fire the hinge or thumb trigger. The problem is they all mess with the float pattern, most guys only fire their hinge or thumb trigger with one method so they never realize what the firing engine that they use is doing to their shooting. I actually use one of my firing engines in competition not because it fires easily but because it produces my most consistent float pattern.

I actually have been shooting competitions with a new firing engine that I have only told maybe 5 people in the world about since I started using it about 3 months ago, it really is special and I plan making it into a padgett article soon. This weekend I used a new hinge in metropolis with this firing engine and it produced some really consistent float all week long, I have used the firing engine with my ht pro brass for a while but with the tru ball inside out x it really was nice.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

subscribed...


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