# Spirals question for Hornet



## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Hey there Hornet. I have been reading the field forum for a while now, even though I have never shot it (would love to try it though). I am currently working a deal for a 2006 Ultratec with spirals, and would like some advice on what to expect. 

I have been shooting dual cams for about 4 years now. Is there going to be a drastic change going to spirals? 

How harsh of a draw is it? 

What is the best way to tune them?

Anything else you could clue me in on would be great. 

Anyone else with some sage advice would be most welcome to chime in as well.

Thanks in advance. Josh


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Josh_Putman said:


> Hey there Hornet. I have been reading the field forum for a while now, even though I have never shot it (would love to try it though). I am currently working a deal for a 2006 Ultratec with spirals, and would like some advice on what to expect.
> 
> I have been shooting dual cams for about 4 years now. Is there going to be a drastic change going to spirals?
> Same as any other cam 1/2 just put the top cam slightly ahead of the bottom and let er eat
> ...


...


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Most of what X hunter said but I don't take the peg out....

I start with my top cam about 1/16" ahead....I find anything more to be too much. But that's me. Just follow the tuning guide for hybrid cams as far as what to twist and you will be set....you will have less twist usually in your control cable then the buss cable though :wink:

The draw isn't really harsh.....I hate that description.ukey: The cams are VERY smooth. The draw is more stiff and just builds faster and you pull more weight longer. But it's not harsh by any means. A lot of binary cams are harsh but spirals aren't....IMO anyway.

If you don't shoot a strong shot though....you will learn how to or you will swap the cams out or sell the bow :chortle: You creep....they will eat your lunch.

What are you shooting now?


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

IMO spirals will help teach you good form for back tension. I've been shooting a hinge exclusively for over 18 months. It wasn't until I left the 80% letoff cams for the lower letoff that some of the things my coach told me made full sense to me. Spirals will let you know quick if you cheat with BT.


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## erasmu (Oct 15, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> The draw isn't really harsh.....I hate that description.ukey: The cams are VERY smooth. The draw is more stiff and just builds faster and you pull more weight longer. But it's not harsh by any means. ...... You creep....they will eat your lunch.


I tried spirals (X) first about 5 months ago. I like them very much and now have them on both the bows I shoot regularly. I also do not feel they are harsh. You don't drop into some deep valley like on some other bows. The thing you do have to get used to is that you cannot creep and get away with it. However, good form prevents creep. I look at that feature of spirals as a positive reinforcement to hold firm against the wall. I also find that spirals have taught me to draw slower and more smoothly, another positive.


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> What are you shooting now?


I am shooting a Wheeler T-Rex. It is a dual cam bow. 

Thanks for all the advice guys. I am really looking forward to getting the Hoyt. I have been doing a lot of reading about the spirals, and am anxious to try them.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

What's a spiral?


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

BarneySlayer.....Spirals are a type of Hoyt cam.....Spirals are known for an aggressive draw cycle that stays loaded from brace, all the way back to the let-off, and have a short valley, and a hard back wall...Most Hoyt Target shooters, and a large percentage of Hoyt 3-D shooters prefer these Spiral cams over any other Hoyt cams....Harperman


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> What's a spiral?


Best Cam ever made , and no , they are not harsh !


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## ctmartinshooter (Aug 16, 2003)

I've drawn spirals on a bow set for 55# (a Vantage Elite) and the spirals on my bow, which is set at 72#, and there's quite a difference. In a target weight, spirals are butter smooth. Before I bought my U/E, I had tried a LOT of bows. The shop I go to carries Bowtech, Martin, Hoyt, and Elite (and now Mathews), so I was able to try pretty much everything. I almost went with the Hoyt Alphamax until I got to draw a Vantage Elite with Spiral X cams. I drew it once -- didn't shoot it or anything -- and right then I said "Oh my God. I want a bow with these cams." They're still, far and away, my favorite cams. I love the hard wall. I love the almost complete lack of valley. At a higher weight, the roll over is a little more pronounced, but it's nothing that makes it unpleasant -- definitely not like a Mathews Monster.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Of course there is a difference in feel between a VE with spirals on 55 lbs and yours on 72 lbs....it's called 17 lbs of extra draw. A Switchback on 55 lbs feels a lot different then one on 72 lbs.....

I have hunted with spirals on a Super and Turbo Tec and Utras with spirals all were in the 65-72lb range....all were still smooth. If you can't handle the extra weight that doesn't make the cam harsh or not smooth. :wink:


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> I start with my top cam about 1/16" ahead....I find anything more to be too much. But that's me. Just follow the tuning guide for hybrid cams as far as what to twist and you will be set....you will have less twist usually in your control cable then the buss cable though :wink:


What is the reason for having one cam ahead of the other? Are you talking hitting the draw stop first when you say ahead? What does this do?

I am used to dual cams where I tune them to hit at the same time, so this is a little bit different for me to hear. 

Once again, I appreciate all of the advice. I just have some more learning to do on advanced tuning. :tongue:


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## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

Josh_Putman said:


> What is the reason for having one cam ahead of the other? Are you talking hitting the draw stop first when you say ahead? What does this do?
> 
> I am used to dual cams where I tune them to hit at the same time, so this is a little bit different for me to hear.
> 
> Once again, I appreciate all of the advice. I just have some more learning to do on advanced tuning. :tongue:


we set the upper cam slightly ahead (this is also done on other hoyt cams) because many believe it helps the bow hold a bit steadier in the x.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Josh_Putman said:


> What is the reason for having one cam ahead of the other? Are you talking hitting the draw stop first when you say ahead? What does this do?
> 
> I am used to dual cams where I tune them to hit at the same time, so this is a little bit different for me to hear.
> 
> Once again, I appreciate all of the advice. I just have some more learning to do on advanced tuning. :tongue:


Try setting the bow up with the cams hitting together and see how it holds... If the bow wants to drop out the bottom of the spot then start rotating the top cam further ahead of the bottom cam in half twist incremints... For most its ustall 1-1.5 twists... For me its 2-2.5... To each his own.

P.S. You can do the same thing to a two cam bow if the bow wants to drop on ya as well


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

avid3d said:


> we set the upper cam slightly ahead (this is also done on other hoyt cams) because many believe it helps the bow hold a bit steadier in the x.


Actually I don't do it for that reason......

I do it to make the bow more forgiving.....after creep tuning and setting up bows for a few years I always end up getting the best results with the top cam hitting before the bottom cam. So instead of spending more time getting there I start there.

Kind of like setting my bow up to shoot a nock high left tear instead of a bullet hole. That's where it usually ends up so I start there :wink:


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Actually I don't do it for that reason......
> 
> I do it to make the bow more forgiving.....after creep tuning and setting up bows for a few years I always end up getting the best results with the top cam hitting before the bottom cam. So instead of spending more time getting there I start there.
> 
> Kind of like setting my bow up to shoot a nock high left tear instead of a bullet hole. That's where it usually ends up so I start there :wink:


Interestingly enough TN Archer and I were discussing this very thing yesterday. For never owning a hybrid cam Hoyt that boy sure is smart when it comes to tuning one :mg:


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> Actually I don't do it for that reason......
> 
> I do it to make the bow more forgiving.....after creep tuning and setting up bows for a few years I always end up getting the best results with the top cam hitting before the bottom cam. So instead of spending more time getting there I start there.
> 
> Kind of like setting my bow up to shoot a nock high left tear instead of a bullet hole. That's where it usually ends up so I start there :wink:





JayMc said:


> Interestingly enough TN Archer and I were discussing this very thing yesterday. For never owning a hybrid cam Hoyt that boy sure is smart when it comes to tuning one :mg:



Interestingly enough...had a long talk with BH about this last night and got schooled on how this works and some other neat little tricks. Waiting for my new spirals to get here, but am going to do some shooting indoors tonight to see how it works with Cam.5+'s
SB


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

*Spirals and Fingers?*

I've never shot Spirals but am enjoying Cam 1/2 Plus on a Vantage. How do you guys think Spirals would be for a finger shooter?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

AKRuss said:


> I've never shot Spirals but am enjoying Cam 1/2 Plus on a Vantage. How do you guys think Spirals would be for a finger shooter?


I don't see why they wouldn't work. I have never shot fingers on a compound before but I would imagine it couldn't be any worse then shooting a freakcurve. 

You would probably want to take out the stop...but maybe not :noidea: I guess it wouldn't hurt to try them if your curious


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Interestingly enough...had a long talk with BH about this last night and got schooled on how this works and some other neat little tricks. Waiting for my new spirals to get here, but am going to do some shooting indoors tonight to see how it works with Cam.5+'s
> SB


Well share the tidbits. I'm a recent convert from single cam bows to spirals.


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Yeah, don't keep all the goodies for yourself........share the wealth! :tongue:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Josh_Putman said:


> Yeah, don't keep all the goodies for yourself........share the wealth! :tongue:


Are you guys not paying attention? :noidea:

The info is already given in this thread :doh:


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> Are you guys not paying attention? :noidea:
> 
> The info is already given in this thread :doh:


:doh:

So I take it those are ALL of your little tricks? :tongue:

By the way, I got my Ultratec today, so I am looking forward to getting to know it better. :rock::rock:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Josh_Putman said:


> :doh:
> 
> So I take it those are ALL of your little tricks? :tongue:
> 
> By the way, I got my Ultratec today, so I am looking forward to getting to know it better. :rock::rock:


No those aren't all of my "tricks" but I have taken the time to figure out how to tune and setup a bow the way I like it....without short cuts. 

Tuning and setting up a bow is about 100 times easier then 95% of shooters think it is or make it...

But am I going to dive into some magic bag and tell everyone what I do? No because I don't do anything special....

Set cam rotation...timing... draw length....shoot it through paper....spend a couple weeks playing with draw....group/tiller/creep tune...

Shoot the damn bow.

Setting up a Hoyt is just like setting up any other bow....you have to tune/setup the bow FOR YOU. What works for me "magic" wise isn't going to work for you....and vise versa.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Shoot the damn bow.


Given that the bow is setup and fits you correctly, if only folks would just follow this simple advice they would see their shooting improve dramatically


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> No those aren't all of my "tricks" but I have taken the time to figure out how to tune and setup a bow the way I like it....without short cuts.
> 
> Tuning and setting up a bow is about 100 times easier then 95% of shooters think it is or make it...
> 
> ...



EXACTLY!!!! All that has been said is just a starting point and is by no means a holy grail of how to set the bow up... Ive talked with a few guys that the bow shoots better with just the opposite of what we do (ie: bottom cam hitting 1st) and they shoot just fine... So its all about just "feeling" your way through the tuning process and dont be afraid to try different things..If if works tweak it till it dont work then back track... Thats the best way to find whats best for you


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

X Hunter said:


> EXACTLY!!!! All that has been said is just a starting point and is by no means a holy grail of how to set the bow up... Ive talked with a few guys that the bow shoots better with just the opposite of what we do (ie: bottom cam hitting 1st) and they shoot just fine... So its all about just "feeling" your way through the tuning process and dont be afraid to try different things..If if works tweak it till it dont work then back track... Thats the best way to find whats best for you


Exactly, I helped out a shooter with his bow and he wanted his bottom cam ahead by 1/16 inch. so presto that's what he got. He considers 300 52X a bad game. I have seen him shoot his bad game a few times. 
some like the top cam ahead, and some like it it right on, and some like it behind.


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Had a chance to shoot my bow today. Boy, is it different than what I am used to. It is going to take me a little bit to get accustomed to its feel. 

By the way Hornet, you were right. The draw isn't harsh at all, in fact it is quite easy to draw. Very smooth, actually. Now I know why they are such a popular cam with some folks. 

Also, thanks for the advice on here. I didn't mean to be such a pain in the keister. :tongue: I guess I was a little apprehensive about getting the bow and not knowing what to expect. A lot of what I read when I did my search led me to believe they were a little tricky to set up and shoot. 

I look forward to getting to know this bow a lot better. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

What is the average difference in speed of a SpiralX vs C.5+ installed on a bow with the same specs in each instance? (Obviously limb deflections would be different, but the end result being the same draw weight.)

Thanks!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

JMJ said:


> What is the average difference in speed of a SpiralX vs C.5+ installed on a bow with the same specs in each instance? (Obviously limb deflections would be different, but the end result being the same draw weight.)
> 
> Thanks!


I would think about 8fps....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Based on BH's advice, I set up my Spirals with a bit of advance on the top cam and at 60yds, it was holding very well!!!! It is key to make sure that you get your DL correct! If you have not taken a day at the range to try various DL's, you need to do that first. I tried a range between 27.5 and 29.5 and found it holds really well at 28 and 1/8th. Really wish I would have done this a long time ago.....

SB


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

I helped JayMc set up his Pro elite with spirals today. 

I am a Mathews guy and so WAS he. After shooting his Pro Elite with those spirals, I have to say that bow felt great!

If I ever switch and start shooting Hoyt , I will shoot spiral cams.... this coming from a single cam guy.:mg:


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## Kent Arms (May 27, 2005)

*?*

what is a josh putman??


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## Josh_Putman (Jun 18, 2004)

Very funny, Vince. How's it going out there in Washington?


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## mountbkr (Nov 14, 2005)

*spirals question*

question for you experienced spirals guys, 09 Ultratec with cam and half, how much weight do you normally gain/lose when going to spirals ?


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## ArcheryNut2006 (Dec 5, 2006)

*Spirals*



mountbkr said:


> question for you experienced spirals guys, 09 Ultratec with cam and half, how much weight do you normally gain/lose when going to spirals ?


There is no such thing as a 09 Ultratec. The last year they made Ultratecs was 2006.


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## mountbkr (Nov 14, 2005)

*ultra*

Meant UltraElite


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## Mr. X-Ring (Feb 13, 2009)

*Cam Switch*

You'll likely gain 4-6 pounds when switching to the Spirals.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Depends on what number cams were on there....when I went from a 3.0 Cam.5+ to Spiral 3.0, I gained about 6lbs.....

My buddy went from 3.0 Cam.5+ to Spiral 1.5's and he lost about 5lbs.....


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Depends on what number cams were on there....when I went from a 3.0 Cam.5+ to Spiral 3.0, I gained about 6lbs.....
> 
> My buddy went from 3.0 Cam.5+ to Spiral 1.5's and he lost about 5lbs.....


Sure.
The smaller the cams, the stiffer the limbs need to be.


I was an idiot by giving my 03 spiraled UT away a few years ago. Best bow I ever owned and shot....and I owned and shot quite a few.

I bought an 06 UT here in the classifieds and I'm currently busy to build it up from the scratch with new 90# limbs and 8.0 spirals. 

It will be all black with bronze cams and limb pockets. Side plates I make from mammoth ivory with a nice scrimshaw.

I'm pretty sure I won't need any other bow the upcoming years.

DB


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

Does any of you find the Vantage Elite with Spirals to run a little short on the draw length? 
I just picked one up on AT this weekend and the guy said he thought they did. I'm getting one with 28.5" cams and have been shooting 28" cam & 1/2 + on a Vantage Pro.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

DHawk2 said:


> Does any of you find the Vantage Elite with Spirals to run a little short on the draw length?
> I just picked one up on AT this weekend and the guy said he thought they did. I'm getting one with 28.5" cams and have been shooting 28" cam & 1/2 + on a Vantage Pro.


Mine runs dead on with C.5+ and spirals


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

That's kinda what I figured...I don't think 28.5" will be to long at all for me. In fact I actually thought 28" felt a little short but my buddies said it looked good. I should have the bow by Thursday and will find out then.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

DHawk2 said:


> That's kinda what I figured...I don't think 28.5" will be to long at all for me. In fact I actually thought 28" felt a little short but my buddies said it looked good. I should have the bow by Thursday and will find out then.


If its to long I have a brand new black set of 3.0 spirals :tongue:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Not short.... In fact since spirals came out that may be the first time I have ever heard anyone say they run short. :wink:


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> If its to long I have a brand new black set of 3.0 spirals :tongue:


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and in fact the bow is supposed to have black cams on it to start with. 

I didn't think they ran short but figured I would ask to find out for sure.


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

I have size 2.5 spiral cams on two PEs. 

One is in spec with the tune chart and is pulling 25.75" true draw plus 1.75" per Hoyt to equal 27.5" AMO DL compared to Hoyt's chart of 27" for that cam.

The other is slightly out of spec and is pulling 26" true draw plus 1.75" to equal 27.75" AMO.

I'm by no means a binary cam expert, but I don't think they run short. I might have something wrong... :set1_thinking:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JayMc said:


> I have size 2.5 spiral cams on two PEs.
> 
> One is in spec with the tune chart and is pulling 25.75" true draw plus 1.75" per Hoyt to equal 27.5" AMO DL compared to Hoyt's chart of 27" for that cam.
> 
> ...


The are Hybrids....not binary cams.....there is a difference :wink:

But I think something is off.....you shouldn't be that long.


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

Is there much difference between the Spiral Cam & 1/2 and the new Spiral X cam & 1/2? 

I just got an 09 Vantage Elite off here that has the original Spirals on it. I just assumed(I know) it was the new Spiral X cams. I'll admit that I'm dissapointed since i thought it had the new cams on it. :sad:


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## Huey04 (Oct 15, 2008)

There is no difference between the new spirals and old that I have seen


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## 10xring (Jun 10, 2003)

Huey04 said:


> There is no difference between the new spirals and old that I have seen


The difference between the old spirals and the new are the angled cable tracks.


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

10xring said:


> The difference between the old spirals and the new are the angled cable tracks.


So not enough to be concerned with?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

For all intents and purposes there is no difference between the old and new spirals.....

There was a slight tweak to the cam but everything is the same spec, shooting, tuning and performance wise.


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## 10xring (Jun 10, 2003)

DHawk2 said:


> So not enough to be concerned with?


I really don't think so as far as shooting them goes. I shot the old spirals and the new ones and they feel and perform the same. 

There was a slight issue with the way the cables tracked in the old version, so when Hoyt released the new version they worked on fixing that issue.

IMO, if your '09 bow was originally purchased with spirals, it should have had the new spiral cams on it unless the seller had told you he swapped them out. If you look at the limb label, you should be able to tell what came on the bow originally. If the label is gone, you can call Hoyt and give them the serial number and they will tell you what limbs and cams came on the bow.


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## RchurE (Mar 20, 2007)

DHawk2 said:


> Is there much difference between the Spiral Cam & 1/2 and the new Spiral X cam & 1/2?
> 
> I just got an 09 Vantage Elite off here that has the original Spirals on it. I just assumed(I know) it was the new Spiral X cams. I'll admit that I'm dissapointed since i thought it had the new cams on it. :sad:


Yeah man, like I was telling you in BB messenger the other night they're purdy much the same. :teeth:

I don't know about the short draw cams but the longer draw cams had some issues with separating cable serving on the older Spirals (like a lot of longer draw cams on most bows I've ever owned). That Ultratec I had with the old Spirals did it some. My Apex did it pretty badly too. If you notice, where you're control comes into the top cam the angle is about a 90 where on the longer ones like mine it's prob close to 180 since mine are longer draw cams.

You don't have anything to be worried about. 

Definitely a bummer that the dude didn't give you ALL the info but I wouldn't sweat the old vs. new cams. Now the missing draw stop peg...well I'd get one of those. If for nothing else just to be able to time it. Lots of people shoot them without one but I like having it in there. Makes it goodnstiff back there. That's my Russian word for the day. :shade:


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

I believe it was bought with spirals BUT he had the choice of 4 different draw lengths when he first posted it for sale. By the time I got it he had sold one set of the cams so I had 3 DL's to choose from.


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