# IBO courses



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

I plan on going to the shoot at Chapman. My boy will also be going. He shoots in Cub and I'm in MBR. My question is about course layout. Do Cub and MBR shoot on the same ranges? If not, how are the Cub courses set up? I have to shoot everything on Friday. I've done this before but it was a long time ago and before I had kids. If they are seperate I'll just let him shoot and I'll skip it. Thanks.


----------



## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

The Chapman location is new this yea. Only someone who is setting up the courses this coming will be able to tell you about the Cub courses. I can tell you the Cubs do not shoot the same courses as MBR (green stake).


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Pm sent I'm involved in setting the courses


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

MBR and CUB will be on different courses. He will be on the ranges with the women's hunter class, youth 13-14, senior hunter, recurve and trad classes.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> MBR and CUB will be on different courses. He will be on the ranges with the women's hunter class, youth 13-14, senior hunter, recurve and trad classes.


Once he calls I'm going to work it out if he wants either myself or someone at the tent on the range which will be my wife and a buddy to walk with his group or I will myself


----------



## cowdocdvm (Apr 24, 2011)

treeman65 said:


> Once he calls I'm going to work it out if he wants either myself or someone at the tent on the range which will be my wife and a buddy to walk with his group or I will myself


That's an awesome gesture...thank you for your kindness


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

cowdocdvm said:


> That's an awesome gesture...thank you for your kindness


Just Trying to help so they both can shoot me and my wife will be there all weekend helping with the shoot. After a lot of hard work the ranges are looking awesome so I hope to see everyone have a good time


----------



## cowdocdvm (Apr 24, 2011)

Good deal! I'll be there


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

I plan on being there, but weather will be deciding factor. Have to be back home Saturday afternoon. Gonna try 30 Friday and 10 early Saturday.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Anyone have any details about the 3rd Leg, such as when the ranges open, or even how much it costs to register. I can't find any of that info on the IBO website.


----------



## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

Registration and ranges open Friday at 7 am. The cost to shoot the amateur classes is $42. To shoot for money in the money classes is an additional $15 to get into the money pot. The info is on the IBO Facebook page.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

The ranges open at 7am Friday Saturday and Sunday 
Last group is let on range at 500 pm Friday and Saturday. I think 1pm on Sunday not sure 
What class are you shooting for registration fees?
Defense ranges will be open on thursday


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'll be shooting MBO (for money). Heading out Friday morning (4hr drive) and we're hoping to get at least half of it (although forecast for Friday doesn't look good) Gotta be home Saturday night, so if Friday is a wash out, we'll probably be screwed with full ranges Saturday.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

We are heading up tonight and hitting the registration table as close to 7am as possible on Friday.


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

With choppy weather in the forecast for Friday & Saturday, a few things you don't want to forget....

Umbrella
Muck Boots
Bug Spray
Stool (I'm predicting long lines on Saturday)


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Well that's gonna be the last IBO for me. Courses seemed like they were set by people that had no clue about competitive archery. (ask me how I know). Very little thought or effort went into the ranges I shot.....ditto for the practice area that was basically a mowed hay field that needed to be baled. When you weren't tripping over the cut "hay" you were tripping on the deep ruts that where hiding under the hay. I'll be surprised if there aren't a couple people with sprained ankles taken off the practice range. 

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


----------



## tlrray (Jun 14, 2015)

Well here it is 10:55 just getting a ride from the u hall buss what a joke not trying to be negative but this is not good . This will be my last ibo shoot .I'm canceling my reservation at the world .good luck.


----------



## cowdocdvm (Apr 24, 2011)

Well I got registered at 7:30 today waited for a shuttle and decided that at 10 am I was packing it in and going home. Couldn't make it on Friday due to work. I was worried that I wasn't going to get 40 in by Sunday at 1. U haul vans are not safe shuttles. Very disappointed and despite shooting very well I'm most likely canning my worlds reservation as well


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

cowdocdvm said:


> U haul vans are not safe shuttles.


Yeah, the "shuttles" weren't a great experience either. We couldn't get shuttled off of IJKL ranges late Friday afternoon because one of the U-hauls ended up in a ditch, blocking all the others from getting through. Fortunately, they were able to hook up a trailer to a 4-wheeler and haul us out that way. (Would have been over a mile walk if I'm looking at the map correctly). As we got to the crash site, we all commented that we hoped no one was being shuttled at the time as they would have been tossed around pretty good. The truck must have been moving at a good pace and got the right wheels off the shoulder and that sucked it right into the ditch. If being pitched to one side quickly wasn't enough, it happened right at a culvert and the truck would have stopped pretty abruptly when the wheel/bumper hit the end of the culvert.


----------



## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

Another truck stuck on the road Saturday morning and no one was going anywhere. A bunch of us finally took off walking but I didn't think it would be that far. Had us seniors on the end range and it was a good hoof out there for sure. I realize we all shoot the same courses so no one had an advantage but setting dark targets in a big pine forest was really tuff shooting. Probally over half the animals were really hard to see and seeing scoring rings was out of the question. Just seems there was a lot of property there and they didn't have to put them in the dark pine forests. Just didn't make for a good shoot when your shooting between the backbone and belly and hoping your arrow lands in the 10 somewhere. I will be going back again in morning to finish my other 20. Lancaster Archery Supply wasn't even there.1st year growing pains I guess.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

I shot ABCD all 40 on Friday, Uhaul ride wasn't bad, IMO the ranges were set up good, no complaints on that. Lodging left some to be desired.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

nestly said:


> Yeah, the "shuttles" weren't a great experience either. We couldn't get shuttled off of IJKL ranges late Friday afternoon because one of the U-hauls ended up in a ditch, blocking all the others from getting through. Fortunately, they were able to hook up a trailer to a 4-wheeler and haul us out that way. (Would have been over a mile walk if I'm looking at the map correctly). As we got to the crash site, we all commented that we hoped no one was being shuttled at the time as they would have been tossed around pretty good. The truck must have been moving at a good pace and got the right wheels off the shoulder and that sucked it right into the ditch. If being pitched to one side quickly wasn't enough, it happened right at a culvert and the truck would have stopped pretty abruptly when the wheel/bumper hit the end of the culvert.


Probably the uhaul truck was barely moving when it went off the road as it was trying to get by another coming from the other direction. If the drivers of said trucks had been using their radios it probably wouldn't have been an issue. The driver that went off this AM causing the huge back up was the same guy from the first one yesterday.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

cowdocdvm said:


> Well I got registered at 7:30 today waited for a shuttle and decided that at 10 am I was packing it in and going home. Couldn't make it on Friday due to work. I was worried that I wasn't going to get 40 in by Sunday at 1. U haul vans are not safe shuttles. Very disappointed and despite shooting very well I'm most likely canning my worlds reservation as well


So what was wrong with the uhauls ? Other than the drivers were driving on a one lane dirt road trying to go both directions at the same time. I'll take the u-haul over a wagon any day.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

draw29 said:


> Another truck stuck on the road Saturday morning and no one was going anywhere. A bunch of us finally took off walking but I didn't think it would be that far. Had us seniors on the end range and it was a good hoof out there for sure. I realize we all shoot the same courses so no one had an advantage but setting dark targets in a big pine forest was really tuff shooting. Probally over half the animals were really hard to see and seeing scoring rings was out of the question. Just seems there was a lot of property there and they didn't have to put them in the dark pine forests. Just didn't make for a good shoot when your shooting between the backbone and belly and hoping your arrow lands in the 10 somewhere. I will be going back again in morning to finish my other 20. Lancaster Archery Supply wasn't even there.1st year growing pains I guess.


I shot 20 Friday and 20 more this am, I thought the courses were fine although the ones on the lakeside were wet, but not nearly as crappy as the Ohio shoot was last year. But I shot the lake side courses yesterday and the hillside courses today. I had no problems seeing the targets. Blaming the weather/conditions on the organization running the shoot is pointless.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Well I drove 3 hours this morning to get to the shoot was planning on shooting 40 today and going home but instead I got there shortly after 7:00 am got registered and was waiting on a shuttle by 7:45 at 9:00 am I was still waiting then the great ibo president gave his speech that every one was supposed to wait and let all the people with shoot times on the shuttle first and they were only on the 7:30 am shooters this was one of the worst thought out shoots I have ever been to needless to say I got back in my truck and drove home I never shot an arrow only good thing they did give me a full refund this was my last ibo shoot until they decide to do some kind of organization of the event until then I shall continue to shoot Asa the only real 3d archery organization


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

We shot IJKL ranges, 30 Fri/10 today-all the way at the end of the road. I honestly felt the U-hauls were better than the wagon/tractor/fumes/dust rides usually associated with shuttles. Radios and some more planning could be a huge benefit. Numerous people with long waits for the shuttles- some who just gave up and left.. Could also benefit by some better planning. 
I refuse to complain about the courses set, someone put a lot of time and effort into that work and deserves more than complaints for their efforts. I didn't think the sets were that bad, they did use some debris to take away feet/legs but there was really no terrain to use in the flats.. The flats which held some water and I am sure turned into a mess today. Weather related but could have benefited by some better planning..
The vendor area was pathetic at best, a national archery shoot in which you couldn't buy a pack of G-hocks or fletching... Thank you to those who did show up and support our hobby. Even though there is no consideration for getting shooters thru the vendor area by the IBO. Putting the vendors a half mile from the practice range and even further from the regular ranges does not promote return for their travel investments. Has been this way for years and could benefit from more planning. 
So in case you don't see the pattern, the IBO still continues to ignore the issues that COULD BENEFIT from some better planning. Issues that have popped up time and time again. These shoots no longer separate themselves from just a bigger club shoot. There is no National Shoot feel and once they receive your payment-their concern for how your weekend experience goes is null and void. 
I too believe I have shot my last IBO until some change occurs for the better, Worlds is not even a thought for our group. Time for the IBO to either adapt or die off-


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

draw29 said:


> Another truck stuck on the road Saturday morning and no one was going anywhere. A bunch of us finally took off walking but I didn't think it would be that far. Had us seniors on the end range and it was a good hoof out there for sure. I realize we all shoot the same courses so no one had an advantage but setting dark targets in a big pine forest was really tuff shooting. Probally over half the animals were really hard to see and seeing scoring rings was out of the question. Just seems there was a lot of property there and they didn't have to put them in the dark pine forests. Just didn't make for a good shoot when your shooting between the backbone and belly and hoping your arrow lands in the 10 somewhere. I will be going back again in morning to finish my other 20. Lancaster Archery Supply wasn't even there.1st year growing pains I guess.


You comment about dark targets in the pines is total crap. Why don't you tell people the freakn truth every target was fine to see except when the storms rolled in and we the volunteers could not control the weather. You are another one that lives close enough that could have came and helped volunteer instead of just whining about something we could not control 
Us volunteers were abused in so many ways he last 2 days for things we could not control as far as cards throw at us 
Water bottle thrown Well I am going to be at tent ABCD today and am going to stand up and fight for my wife and friends today
Some of us put groups enjoyment ahead of our shooting just to help out. I walk the ranges with several groups just so they didn not have to wait for a third person. 
Hell I walked over 10.5 miles (per pedometer I where ) on Thursday carrying target in the heat and humidity
And you are crying about that little walk to your ranges. Which we wheeled it off from the gate on the game lands to last range 
400 yards so with that add to the walk from the parking lot to the gate it was made 800 yards that makes me really feel sorry for your walk


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

hrtlnd164 said:


> We shot IJKL ranges, 30 Fri/10 today-all the way at the end of the road. I honestly felt the U-hauls were better than the wagon/tractor/fumes/dust rides usually associated with shuttles. Radios and some more planning could be a huge benefit. Numerous people with long waits for the shuttles- some who just gave up and left.. Could also benefit by some better planning.
> I refuse to complain about the courses set, someone put a lot of time and effort into that work and deserves more than complaints for their efforts. I didn't think the sets were that bad, they did use some debris to take away feet/legs but there was really no terrain to use in the flats.. The flats which held some water and I am sure turned into a mess today. Weather related but could have benefited by some better planning..
> The vendor area was pathetic at best, a national archery shoot in which you couldn't buy a pack of G-hocks or fletching... Thank you to those who did show up and support our hobby. Even though there is no consideration for getting shooters thru the vendor area by the IBO. Putting the vendors a half mile from the practice range and even further from the regular ranges does not promote return for their travel investments. Has been this way for years and could benefit from more planning.
> So in case you don't see the pattern, the IBO still continues to ignore the issues that COULD BENEFIT from some better planning. Issues that have popped up time and time again. These shoots no longer separate themselves from just a bigger club shoot. There is no National Shoot feel and once they receive your payment-their concern for how your weekend experience goes is null and void.
> I too believe I have shot my last IBO until some change occurs for the better, Worlds is not even a thought for our group. Time for the IBO to either adapt or die off-


 Thanks cause i was one of the feel volunteers that did work cutting lanes I just wish you buddy had show the respect that you showed due to that I do not plan on shooting at his club ever again
We took so much crap this weekend as volunteers that I makes me wonder if this sport is worth it. I even had one guy run his mouth while I was carrying pallets by hand that u was earning my $25 an hour. But when I walked back of the the Range with hands free he had no comment. I have a bad back and as you can see I did not go on the ranges with wheeler to put targets or pallets in each and every last one was carried from the road


----------



## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

I for one thought the courses I shot (IJKL) were great...Yes, they were challenging but that's what they are supposed to be. Kudos to the people that worked so hard to set them up. As to the IBO...what a pathetic, sorry, poorly run organization that is obviously being controlled by a President with a huge ego and zero talent. His relentless refusal to make positive changes and actually listen to what the membership wants is a sure sign that the better days of the IBO are past and quite frankly I think I hear the death moans of this organization. I signed a petition while there asking for positive changes... it was already at 3 pages but as we all know it will most definitely fall on deaf ears.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

treeman65 said:


> You comment about dark targets in the pines is total crap. Why don't you tell people the freakn truth every target was fine to see except when the storms rolled in and we the volunteers could not control the weather. You are another one that lives close enough that could have came and helped volunteer instead of just whining about something we could not control


Some of the targets would have been excessively dark even if it had been bright and sunny all weekend. My complaint(s) have nothing to do with the weather per se, but, those who organized the event and set the courses (at least the courses I shot) did not give adequate consideration to what would happen if the weather wasn't ideal. 



treeman65 said:


> Us volunteers were abused in so many ways he last 2 days for things we could not control as far as cards throw at us
> Water bottle thrown Well I am going to be at tent ABCD today and am going to stand up and fight for my wife and friends today
> Some of us put groups enjoyment ahead of our shooting just to help out. I walk the ranges with several groups just so they didn not have to wait for a third person.


With all due respect to your time and effort, simply working hard and making personal sacrifice isn't good enough. It's a National shoot, and there are hundreds of people that rely on the IBO and the local club to make the event worthwhile. I suspect a large number of them are going to leave Warren feeling that the wasted their time and their money, many of them having not even shot all 40 targets. So the flip side of you feeling abused and disrespected is that you (the host club and the IBO) disrespected and abused all the shooters by not being adequately prepared. (again, there's much to complain about that wasn't weather related)



treeman65 said:


> Hell I walked over 10.5 miles (per pedometer I where ) on Thursday carrying target in the heat and humidity
> And you are crying about that little walk to your ranges. Which we wheeled it off from the gate on the game lands to last range
> 400 yards so with that add to the walk from the parking lot to the gate it was made 800 yards that makes me really feel sorry for your walk


If you personally, or the host club, or the IBO, was overwhelmed by the work, then that's really your own fault for biting off more than you could chew. If you put on a good shoot, people will give the praise that's deserved. If you put on a crappy shoot, you're gonna hear about it. The 3rd Leg in Warren was a crappy shoot, and it would have been so regardless of the weather.


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

The members from Presque Isle Field Archers ran the range tents for EFGH, IJKL. I believe they were also at the other ranges as well, I saw Treeman65 and Larry BigDogz at ABCD. Several members of the Warren Archery Club were responsible for range lay out. If I have forgot anybody I'm sorry. You folks did a great job setting up the ranges and although some targets on IJKL were set in dark holes no matter the lighting conditions all in all our ranges were very challenging with the terrain available. 
The IBO should be ashamed of themselves for all the other problems. Who has a shuttle system not running in a loop? Over and over again the vendors have asked to be put into the middle of the action. The rule for peer groups is to meet and be assigned a group, the group then decides when they wish to shoot. They must complete 30 targets or 40 if the group agrees. They are not assigned shoot times as IBO President Marcum made the rest of the amateurs believe while waiting for the shuttles. His disregard to follow the rules set upon the membership by the Board of Directors, his actions at the 3rd Leg LAST YEAR and his inability to accept a petition larger than the "Pro Hunter Class" is grounds for removal from office. A petition has been started again this year, what also needs to take place is a simple boycott by the shooters to not attend any more of the IBO events. When it starts to cost the target sponsor money to fulfill the contract obligations maybe and only maybe than changes will occur. Again I wish to say thank-you for all those that worked so hard to create the ranges, place the targets and run the tents. Shame on the IBO for your efforts to make this event a joke. Sure glad my name is no longer associated with that organization.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

nestly said:


> Some of the targets would have been excessively dark even if it had been bright and sunny all weekend. My complaint(s) have nothing to do with the weather per se, but, those who organized the event and set the courses (at least the courses I shot) did not give adequate consideration to what would happen if the weather wasn't ideal.
> Stop and see James at tent ABCD today
> 
> 
> ...



Stop and introduce yourself to James at tent ABCD today


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

treeman65 said:


> Stop and introduce yourself to James at tent ABCD today


I would take you up on it, but I'm one of those who left early. I did shoot the first 20 with a local gentleman that helped set the courses though. I had a great group and we had fun among ourselves... but the courses themselves were really disappointing.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread again after my first post, have no intentions of arguing over anything to do with the IBO. But just looking around our ranges and what the terrain and area had to offer, I thought the sets were good myself. I would assume that the Park had control of where the ranges were located, those who cut and set the ranges were then left to make the most of it. The ranges I shot made you move your sight back and forth, hid portions of the targets, had some tunnel effect, and unlike usual IBO fashion- did not beat you with well over max sets. I did shoot maybe 4 targets at max or a step beyond but that was it. The dark canopy can not be blamed on those who put the effort into clearing and setting targets. I have definitely shot much worse at other venues over the years. Had all the targets been set out in open fields folks would complain about it being too bright. It was definitely a struggle to see on the courses, so much so I shot the 1st 30 with my lens removed. But that is not a reflection on lack of effort on anyone's part, but more on the location of the ranges.. Just food for thought!


----------



## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

draw29 said:


> Another truck stuck on the road Saturday morning and no one was going anywhere. A bunch of us finally took off walking but I didn't think it would be that far. Had us seniors on the end range and it was a good hoof out there for sure. I realize we all shoot the same courses so no one had an advantage but setting dark targets in a big pine forest was really tuff shooting. Probally over half the animals were really hard to see and seeing scoring rings was out of the question. Just seems there was a lot of property there and they didn't have to put them in the dark pine forests. Just didn't make for a good shoot when your shooting between the backbone and belly and hoping your arrow lands in the 10 somewhere. I will be going back again in morning to finish my other 20. Lancaster Archery Supply wasn't even there.1st year growing pains I guess.


With all due respect, I shot the other 20 this morning. The ranges were on the hill side above the road. Great layouts ,could see the animals and challenging.I thought that layout was great compared to the dark ones below the road yesterday. Our whole group commented on how the ranges above the road were good. A couple friends of mine shooting another course said how they like yesterday but they were above the road and didn't know why I disliked it.Today they shot below the road and the one fell in the mud and they were 2 very unhappy people on there way home. All I am saying is that theres lots of potential keeping all the ranges above the road somehow. The uhauls were running great today and no waits at all. Today was a great day on the range and I was smiling even if I didn't shoot well.Just never will be a good shoot using the property below the road. To dark and wet. Just a suggestion.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

nestly said:


> I would take you up on it, but I'm one of those who left early. I did shoot the first 20 with a local gentleman that helped set the courses though. I had a great group and we had fun among ourselves... but the courses themselves were really disappointing.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


Figured this much. 
Happy typing to you


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

NYS REP said:


> The members from Presque Isle Field Archers ran the range tents for EFGH, IJKL. I believe they were also at the other ranges as well, I saw Treeman65 and Larry BigDogz at ABCD. Several members of the Warren Archery Club were responsible for range lay out. If I have forgot anybody I'm sorry. You folks did a great job setting up the ranges and although some targets on IJKL were set in dark holes no matter the lighting conditions all in all our ranges were very challenging with the terrain available.
> The IBO should be ashamed of themselves for all the other problems. Who has a shuttle system not running in a loop? Over and over again the vendors have asked to be put into the middle of the action. The rule for peer groups is to meet and be assigned a group, the group then decides when they wish to shoot. They must complete 30 targets or 40 if the group agrees. They are not assigned shoot times as IBO President Marcum made the rest of the amateurs believe while waiting for the shuttles. His disregard to follow the rules set upon the membership by the Board of Directors, his actions at the 3rd Leg LAST YEAR and his inability to accept a petition larger than the "Pro Hunter Class" is grounds for removal from office. A petition has been started again this year, what also needs to take place is a simple boycott by the shooters to not attend any more of the IBO events. When it starts to cost the target sponsor money to fulfill the contract obligations maybe and only maybe than changes will occur. Again I wish to say thank-you for all those that worked so hard to create the ranges, place the targets and run the tents. Shame on the IBO for your efforts to make this event a joke. Sure glad my name is no longer associated with that organization.[/QUOTE
> Thanks
> But I think we are done with IBO until things change due the way we were treated by shooters and IBO
> ...


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

We came up early Friday morning, dealt with the rain and mud, my boy (Cub class) shot all 40 targets (ABCD) and handled himself like he was at the Big Show with regularity even though it was the first time. I'm super proud of him. His courses were well set for the classes using them. Some flats, some hills, good use of terrain and foliage, paths were well cut. Distances were spot on for the class maximums. He thoroughly enjoyed himself.

I know there have been better and worse situations with course that I've shot. But would look forward to seeing a possible venue change since the layout (distance from the vendor area to the practice ranges to the comp courses) was a little less than ideal.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

treeman65 don't let a few whiners get you down. Marengo Ohio last year was way worse than Chapman was. I enjoyed the shoot and I enjoyed shooting with you Friday on D course.
[ From what I have read I am certain we shot together on D] Yes the hillside was a very nice set up as was A, D left something to be desired but as I said I have seen worse.
Thanks to all who helped.
Dave


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> treeman65 don't let a few whiners get you down. *Marengo Ohio last year was way worse than Chapman* was. I enjoyed the shoot and I enjoyed shooting with you Friday on D course.
> [ From what I have read I am certain we shot together on D] Yes the hillside was a very nice set up as was A, D left something to be desired but as I said* I have seen worse*.
> Thanks to all who helped.
> Dave


"way worse than Chapman" .... "I've seen worse"..... "not that bad" ... "something to be desired" Those are comments made by people trying to be supportive of Chapman. Pretty low benchmark when it's good enough just not to be the "worst".

15% of MBO didn't even turn in their score cards (not sure whether that includes those who "un-registered" without even shooting) I think you might be understating the number of "whiners" at the shoot. World attendance is going to tell the story of how shooters felt about the IBO at Chapman, as it's in the same general area. We've already heard several in this topic that said they're canceling their reservations....


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm sure the IBO had some challenges and crossed fingers going into the 2016 NTC with new venues.

White River Bowhunters got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
Gem City Outdoorsmen got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
Hocking College and Marengo I heard had ethical and financial issues for throwing in the towel.

Let's face it, the hard work before, during and after far outweighs any rewards.

Pipe Stem was a well managed event logistically. They had two years of hosting the Spring Nats to work out the bugs.
Lake Monroe was interesting as the Indiana DNR managed it like the military. I was very impressed.
Chapman State Park, well I think the jury is still out.

Sounds like the Chapman organizers took quite a thrashing. I truly am sorry to hear that. We'll see if they choose to work out the bugs moving forward or throw in the towel.
I would think the PA DCNR had a long list of "don'ts" for the organizers, which limited the chances of a stellar outcome.
I thought the PA DCNR would man this like Indiana did. Their participation it seems was zero.
The IBO "Tournament Director" should have thought this one through a little more. We do have a Tournament Director, don't we...?

It seems from my IBO experience, the best events have a few things in common.
On site or close (15 minutes) accommodations and restaurants. This promotes archers spending more time at the event to watch and participate in the shoot offs, novelties and patronize the vendors.
Having at least 1/3 of the archers competing on ranges that are a short walk from the main hub. Only having to shuttle 2/3's instead of 100%.
On site primitive camping keeps a good number of archers on site day and night. Some of my best IBO memories are camping at Bedford, McKean and Nelsonville...

I saw no hitches at Chapman on Friday. Shot 20 and stayed with some family about 40 miles away.
Saturday was obviously a different story. Poor locale and logistic glitches made for some unhappy participants.
Even though this was the closest venue for me this year, I don't believe this remote part of Pennsylvania is the ideal locale for a event of this magnitude. 

I will throw out a big Thank You to the Chapman people for the very thankless hard work they put in. I thought the course was challenging and most shots well placed. I got all 40 in and shot well.

Robinofthehood


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> I'm sure the IBO had some challenges and crossed fingers going into the 2016 NTC with new venues.
> 
> White River Bowhunters got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
> Gem City Outdoorsmen got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
> ...


Thank you from all of us that volunteered


----------



## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

I had a long chat with treeman65 yesterday when he was in my shop. I just want to reiterate that the only issue I had was with the IBO. The volunteers...the people who worked tirelessly to put this event together deserve a round of applause for the hard work they did. No one should direct their complaints towards them. Direct your complaints and dissatisfaction to the IBO *not* to the volunteers. Thanks to all of them for doing their best.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> I'm sure the IBO had some challenges and crossed fingers going into the 2016 NTC with new venues.
> 
> White River Bowhunters got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
> Gem City Outdoorsmen got burned out and said we're done. Too much hard work and commitment for the younger generation.
> ...


Yes. I am the competition director for the IBO. Thursday before the event was the first time I had been to the location.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

GreggWNY said:


> I had a long chat with treeman65 yesterday when he was in my shop. I just want to reiterate that the only issue I had was with the IBO. The volunteers...the people who worked tirelessly to put this event together deserve a round of applause for the hard work they did. *No one should direct their complaints towards them*. Direct your complaints and dissatisfaction to the IBO *not* to the volunteers. Thanks to all of them for doing their best.


Yes, there's plenty to complain about with the IBO, but my primary disappointment with the Chapman shoot was with the courses themselves. Who set the animals, the stakes, and cleared and marked the trails. Yes, it boils down to the IBO making poor decisions, and IMO one of those poor decisions was not ensuring the people "doing the work" had sufficient experience and/or instruction how to host a national level competition. You can say what you want, but IJKL ranges were either set very quickly, or by very inexperienced 3D'ers.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

nestly said:


> Yes, there's plenty to complain about with the IBO, but my primary disappointment with the Chapman shoot was with the courses themselves. Who set the animals, the stakes, and cleared and marked the trails. Yes, it boils down to the IBO making poor decisions, and IMO one of those poor decisions was not ensuring the people "doing the work" had sufficient experience and/or instruction how to host a national level competition. You can say what you want, but IJKL ranges were either set very quickly, or by very inexperienced 3D'ers.


Myself and another director reworked that course the best we could Thursday before the shoot. We had to make a lot of changes.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> Myself and another director reworked that course the best we could Thursday before the shoot. We had to make a lot of changes.


That is screwed up IBO directors set the stakes
Brian Marcum set the lanes 
Yes volunteers cleared the lanes 
I'm so done with IBO after what went on at this shoot
The tents had little support from directors other than one getting cocking about things that needed done
Not once did I see the competition director show up at tent ABCD
There is a desperate need for a new organization in the north or a total rebuild of IBO
Josh Farley was the only director that was supportive


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> That is screwed up IBO directors set the stakes
> Brian Marcum set the lanes
> Yes volunteers cleared the lanes
> I'm so done with IBO after what went on at this shoot
> ...


I am thankful for the volunteers and I know exactly how much work volunteers put into getting the shoot site ready. I was stuck in the vendor area Friday since Bryan, Josh, and Jim were working on the pro ranges all day. I am usually on the ranges talking to shooters but Friday is the only day I can since I shoot on Saturday and Sunday. Bryan did layout all the ranges and Thursday we flagged a lot of lanes, put up signs, set stakes and shuffled a lot on I, J, K, L to try to get some distance out of 3 of the 4 ranges.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

GreggWNY said:


> I had a long chat with treeman65 yesterday when he was in my shop. I just want to reiterate that the only issue I had was with the IBO. The volunteers...the people who worked tirelessly to put this event together deserve a round of applause for the hard work they did. No one should direct their complaints towards them. Direct your complaints and dissatisfaction to the IBO *not* to the volunteers. Thanks to all of them for doing their best.


Thanks Gregg. You will have my business at your shop from now on great shop and great guy
I had a long talk with ---- and see want was trying to be done with the statement that was made to me from someone in IBO
Between current IBO person starting crap and stressin people that had nothing to do with the issue which is a personal on between IBO and certain individual that should not have been brought up at the tournament
I will from now on and until personal and ways thing are run at IBO shoots I will be shooting else where
Sunday after the VOLUNTEERS tore down pro ranges IBO president could not even get out of his truck and thank people he just thru a wave and drive off. Most of the people that came in to just tear targets down have nothing to do with archery do you think any of them would ever get interested in this sport after that?
I have had back pains said bad that I can't stand it for 2 days now after busting my rear taking targets down
I am going to put my worlds invitation where it belongs in the shredder


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Wow


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> Wow


I would drive past and IBO event to drive 8hours to shoot your range


----------



## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

I've never seen or heard so many people being upset about a shoot the IBO put on. Between folks sitting and waiting for almost 3 hours for a shuttle and the location being in the middle of BFE with horrible lodging options, people seemed to be pretty pissed off. There was a few petitions being passed around that I'm sure Marcum won't even look at. It's most likely going to take him being removed from his position for this organization to change for the better. The members of this organization (who pay Marcum's overly paid salary) are the ones who the IBO should be listening to, but they don't. They do what they want, and the participation numbers are showing it. This had to be one of the lowest attended National shoots in quite a long time? 

I love shooting 3d tourneys, especially at the national level. The only option we have up here for us is the IBO and it's tough to swallow how much better the ASA shoots are ran. For us regular working class folks, it's too far away to travel to and it just is what it is. Really wish the IBO would listen to what the membership wants. 

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for us up this far north. It would be nice to say "just stop showing up and they'll change" but when there isn't any other game in town, you either quit doing what you enjoy to do or just put up with the stink and roll with it. Shooting a poorly ran and mismanaged national level tourney is still better than not shooting one at all I guess


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

We all need to ban together and start push ASA style shoots at a state level and try to come up with a better option than IBO
I personally would love to see a southern and northern ASA organization with classic some where in the middle


----------



## T.P (Jun 29, 2016)

treeman65 said:


> We all need to ban together and start push ASA style shoots at a state level and try to come up with a better option than IBO
> I personally would love to see a southern and northern ASA organization with classic some where in the middle



OPA anyone?


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

T.P said:


> OPA anyone?


I'm going to take the step and call ASA to see if there is any chance to get something started
I was a ASA state director for years before I move to PA and am willing to do what I can to help get something started


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

treeman65 said:


> We all need to ban together and start push ASA style shoots at a state level and try to come up with a better option than IBO
> I personally would love to see a southern and northern ASA organization with classic some where in the middle


That would be awesome.



T.P said:


> OPA anyone?


I went to the OPA as a spectator. It was well ran and neat to watch. But when it only catered to a couple hundred pro's (at most) then it would be pretty easy to handle. The site was not ready for a couple thousands people (spectators and shooters). I do however think the OPA style of shooting would be fun. A nice cross between 3D and Redding.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> I'm going to take the step and call ASA to see if there is any chance to get something started
> I was a ASA state director for years before I move to PA and am willing to do what I can to help get something started


Robert Friedl is the ASA rep for PA. He is a good guy. Give him a holler.


----------



## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

Treeman: I really hope you can sway the ASA up North. I started shooting ASA about 7 years ago and really like there shoots. At the time I was the Archery Directer of the Fryburg Sportsmans Club. Anyone that has been there knows we have a pretty nice club for shooting. 350 acres of fields and hardwoods. Only 12 miles from the Clarion Exit of I-80. Lots of motels,eating places,mall. 12 miles east there is Cook Forest State Park with cabin rentals and campgrounds everywhere. Fun Parks,horse riding,canoe trips and lots to do for the non shooting family. Well I sent all the motel numbers ,cabins numbers,pictures of the club to the ASA trying to get them interested and it all fell on deaf ears. I even became an ASa rep for 5 years and attended all the meetings at the Florida Pro Am and they are not interested in coming up here when they are getting a couple thousand at there choosen sites already. What burst my bubble and I gave up was that we had an ASA State shoot that I worked my tail off on. As you know, its a ton of work and hard to find help. Well 52 shooters showed up for it. I think everyone that came really enjoyed it. I do hope you succeed. For me,no director anymore, no ASA Rep anymore.


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

So before this thread gets locked down for personnel attacks lets again make something perfectly clear. The volunteers did an excellent job preparing the ranges, placing targets and operating the tents to their best ability. As a new venue the Tournament Director should have/ could have made an appearance many weeks in advance or the IBO President should have/could have made more than a couple stops as I've been told. The major problem wasn't with the RANGES. There were no means of communication at the range tents. The area had no cell service and the IBO did not provide the use of the radios to the workers on Friday. What was the plan to remove 600 plus shooters more or less a mile from their vehicles in the event of a severe storm(s). There wasn't enough shelter for 30 people let alone 600 plus at the vendor area. Running 4 or 6 U-Haul vans with hay bales into a one-way lane couldn't remove the shooters or volunteers in a timely matter. The IBO President put the lives of 600 plus people in danger because of the lack of good judgment in my opinion. On Friday there wasn't any water available unless you purchased it from the tents, which is another example of the organization not following their own rules. I understand this year was filled with challenges, three new venues BUT the IBO President has had plenty of experience previously as a Director. If change is to occur the shooters simply need to boycott events.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

NYS REP said:


> So before this thread gets locked down for personnel attacks lets again make something perfectly clear. The volunteers did an excellent job preparing the ranges, placing targets and operating the tents to their best ability. As a new venue the Tournament Director should have/ could have made an appearance many weeks in advance or the IBO President should have/could have made more than a couple stops as I've been told. *The major problem wasn't with the RANGES*. There were no means of communication at the range tents. The area had no cell service and the IBO did not provide the use of the radios to the workers on Friday. What was the plan to remove 600 plus shooters more or less a mile from their vehicles in the event of a severe storm(s). There wasn't enough shelter for 30 people let alone 600 plus at the vendor area. Running 4 or 6 U-Haul vans with hay bales into a one-way lane couldn't remove the shooters or volunteers in a timely matter. The IBO President put the lives of 600 plus people in danger because of the lack of good judgment in my opinion. On Friday there wasn't any water available unless you purchased it from the tents, which is another example of the organization not following their own rules. I understand this year was filled with challenges, three new venues BUT the IBO President has had plenty of experience previously as a Director. If change is to occur the shooters simply need to boycott events.


How much time did you spend on IJKL ranges? Based on the comments by IBO reps, and also by the gentleman I shot with that helped set them but said they had been since changed, it's now hard to say whether the ranges were poorly set up from the beginning, or whether IBO messed them up when they "re-worked" them Thursday, or some combination thereof, but I'm going to post a rebuttal to everyone that says IJKL ranges were "fine", because they were not appropriate sets for the classes that shot them.

Again, I knew that IBO was a poorly managed organization long before I decided to go to Chapman. I knew the vendor support was abysmal compared to ASA, I expected that things would be spread out more than they "should" be, and I expected to do a fair amount of walking. What I did not expect was ranges that looked like they were set up by amateurs for weekend shooters.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

nestly said:


> How much time did you spend on IJKL ranges? Based on the comments by IBO reps, and also by the gentleman I shot with that helped set them but said they had been since changed, it's now hard to say whether the ranges were poorly set up from the beginning, or whether IBO messed them up when they "re-worked" them Thursday, or some combination thereof, but I'm going to post a rebuttal to everyone that says IJKL ranges were "fine", because they were not appropriate sets for the classes that shot them.
> 
> Again, I knew that IBO was a poorly managed organization long before I decided to go to Chapman. I knew the vendor support was abysmal compared to ASA, I expected that things would be spread out more than they "should" be, and I expected to do a fair amount of walking. What I did not expect was ranges that looked like they were set up by amateurs for weekend shooters.


All I did in the ranges was lengthen them. We didn't change many lanes there wasn't time to. Range L was good on distance but I, J, K were about a 30 yard average when I got there. We did what we had time to do.


----------



## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

outbackarcher said:


> All I did in the ranges was lengthen them. We didn't change many lanes there wasn't time to. Range L was good on distance but I, J, K were about a 30 yard average when I got there. We did what we had time to do.


So, is it standard practice to assume the site will get the courses laid out correctly, and you just show up right before with fingers crossed?


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

jmann28 said:


> So, is it standard practice to assume the site will get the courses laid out correctly, and you just show up right before with fingers crossed?


No sir. There were site visits. Just not by me. I didn't look at Bloomington or Warren.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> Robert Friedl is the ASA rep for PA. He is a good guy. Give him a holler.


Actually I'm talking with MIke directly to see what we can get going


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> All I did in the ranges was lengthen them. We didn't change many lanes there wasn't time to. Range L was good on distance but I, J, K were about a 30 yard average when I got there. We did what we had time to do.


Wonder why directors set the stakes so short then


----------



## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

ASA = Archery Shooters Association :thumbs_up

IBO = International Bumbling Organization :thumbs_do

bum·bling
ˈbəmb(ə)liNG/
adjective
adjective: bumbling

acting in a confused or ineffectual way; incompetent.
"he's a bumbling fool"


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

GreggWNY said:


> ASA = Archery Shooters Association :thumbs_up
> 
> IBO = International Bumbling Organization :thumbs_do
> 
> ...


Thanks I needed a laugh


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> Wonder why directors set the stakes so short then


I am the director that set the stakes first. I put all the stakes in the back of the cut lanes and I just couldn't get any distance. So I got with Bryan and then myself and another director Jim Merritt went and tried to stretch things out. I personally don't feel those ranges ended up that bad. I didn't have time to look at the others. Another director set stakes on a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h.


----------



## pabowman (Jun 19, 2005)

treeman65 I pm'd you... please follow up on that before you go barking up the wrong tree. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Lets be real.... Lots of people worked their tails off putting this shoot on. You can tell that Treeman worked really hard because of the passion in the tone of his typing... I applaud him for that and the rest of the volunteers... We all know Outbackarcher has worked diligently to make the IBO better and has succeeded... You have to applaud him for what he has done but his hands alone can't make it perfect. The main culprit is the IBO leadership not caring enough about its supporters. The last nail in the coffin was Levi's rant on facebook. That's what really set the whole tournament in a whirl because when he speaks everyone jumps, not that its a bad thing but......


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Sorry to anyone that got offended by my post
Best of luck with your shooting


----------



## meloy10 (Feb 3, 2014)

I know that I have talked to Larry at a few ASA events and at the Bloomington ibo. He works his butt off between setting up the ranges and shooting his normal schedule. Let's be honest...he isn't to blame. The ibo, in my opinion, hangs these venues out to dry. This is why all of the above complaints are being voiced. When you shoot an Asa, everything is right there. The vendors, ranges, pros, practice bags, and sims ranges are in the same place. Good for everyone right? People aren't confused, vendors get foot traffic and shooters can watch the pros. Let's face it, one person can't change the ibo...but numbers (and wallets) speak volumes.


----------



## pabowman (Jun 19, 2005)

meloy10 said:


> I know that I have talked to Larry at a few ASA events and at the Bloomington ibo. He works his butt off between setting up the ranges and shooting his normal schedule. Let's be honest...he isn't to blame. The ibo, in my opinion, hangs these venues out to dry. This is why all of the above complaints are being voiced. When you shoot an Asa, everything is right there. The vendors, ranges, pros, practice bags, and sims ranges are in the same place. Good for everyone right? People aren't confused, vendors get foot traffic and shooters can watch the pros. Let's face it, one person can't change the ibo...but numbers (and wallets) speak volumes.


Couldn't agree more!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Let's all just tell the truth the ibo needs a new leader one who actually listens and try's new things let's face it you will never please everybody every time but you could at least make an honest effort and I think outback archer has done more for ibo than anybody lately especially our ibo DICTATOR


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

3dbowmaster said:


> The last nail in the coffin was Levi's rant on facebook. That's what really set the whole tournament in a whirl .....


Didn't know anything about this, and I'm not savy enough with facebook to find it. Is there a link or something that can be googled?


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

meloy10 said:


> I know that I have talked to Larry at a few ASA events and at the Bloomington ibo. He works his butt off between setting up the ranges and shooting his normal schedule. Let's be honest...he isn't to blame. The ibo, in my opinion, hangs these venues out to dry. This is why all of the above complaints are being voiced. When you shoot an Asa, everything is right there. The vendors, ranges, pros, practice bags, and sims ranges are in the same place. Good for everyone right? People aren't confused, vendors get foot traffic and shooters can watch the pros. Let's face it, one person can't change the ibo...but numbers (and wallets) speak volumes.


Good points, IMO one of the pros of an IBO Triple Crown shoot is having the convenience to choose and shoot the day or days you want to shoot.


----------



## meloy10 (Feb 3, 2014)

loujo61 said:


> Good points, IMO one of the pros of an IBO Triple Crown shoot is having the convenience to choose and shoot the day or days you want to shoot.



Yes...and that's something that draws a lot of people to the ibo. Being able to choose "shoot times" is something that allows you to travel with people close and coordinate rooms as such. BUT....if that is something that is going to turn said wallets away there is a very simple solution....run events like worlds. You can pre register and request "shoot times". Golf courses do this with tee times with ease online. They run schedule online that take some back end development work, don't get me wrong, but when you register you can pay and pick your time....and they hold you to that time...nobody can say this can't be done. Wouldn't this be a simple choice for the ibo to accommodate and stop some of the confusion? I sure think so.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

meloy10 said:


> Yes...and that's something that draws a lot of people to the ibo. Being able to choose "shoot times" is something that allows you to travel with people close and coordinate rooms as such. BUT....if that is something that is going to turn said wallets away there is a very simple solution....run events like worlds. You can pre register and request "shoot times". Golf courses do this with tee times with ease online. They run schedule online that take some back end development work, don't get me wrong, but when you register you can pay and pick your time....and they hold you to that time...nobody can say this can't be done. Wouldn't this be a simple choice for the ibo to accommodate and stop some of the confusion? I sure think so.


Yes and it may help keep the lines from backing up too, but, I still like being able to come in and shoot 10 or 40 targets (around the weather) on one day.
I've noticed how over the last few years the HC numbers have dwindled, IMO the average HC Guy is not into waiting around in long lines, I drove out of Chapman about 4PM Friday and the defense course was packed, no smiling faces there either.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

If someone is basically shooting for "fun" then the open shooting times is probably appealing, but for serious competitors, shotgun start/target assignments provides a much more level playing field and provides a much stronger competitive environment. Is there another sport where people compete for national honors where they can just show up whenever they want, complete their rounds whenever and with whomever they want, and then turn it their scores and go home, possibly without ever seeing, much less speaking to those they're competing against? It's time IBO stop running tournaments like a weekend club shoot and pay attention to how other major tournaments are conducted.

ASA is setting attendance records while IBO attendance is dwindling. IMO IBO would gain far more "competitors" from a structured tournament format than they'd lose by continuing with flexible shooting times. It's not fair that some get to shoot "around the weather" and others dont. Everyone competing for the same award should be shooting at the same time and in the same conditions.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

nestly said:


> If someone is basically shooting for "fun" then the open shooting times is probably appealing, but for serious competitors, shotgun start/target assignments provides a much more level playing field and provides a much stronger competitive environment. Is there another sport where people compete for national honors where they can just show up whenever they want, complete their rounds whenever and with whomever they want, and then turn it their scores and go home, possibly without ever seeing, much less speaking to those they're competing against? It's time IBO stop running tournaments like a weekend club shoot and pay attention to how other major tournaments are conducted.
> 
> ASA is setting attendance records while IBO attendance is dwindling. IMO IBO would gain far more "competitors" from a structured tournament format than they'd lose by continuing with flexible shooting times. It's not fair that some get to shoot "around the weather" and others dont. Everyone competing for the same award should be shooting at the same time and in the same conditions.


I have been pushing for separating the money and trophy side. The trophy shoot will basically be a fun shoot and shoot at your leisure. The money side will be shooting with your peers and tee times or shotgun starts. The ranges will be 2 twenty target ranges. The entry fees will increase slightly in the money class as will the payouts.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> I have been pushing for separating the money and trophy side. The trophy shoot will basically be a fun shoot and shoot at your leisure. The money side will be shooting with your peers and tee times or shotgun starts. The ranges will be 2 twenty target ranges. The entry fees will increase slightly in the money class as will the payouts.


Yes, that would be a good start, and then having a move up list would keep people more interested in shooting in their class for $.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> Yes, that would be a good start, and then having a move up list would keep people more interested in shooting in their class for $.


Move up rules are included too.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> Move up rules are included too.


Very good, the competition is way steep and the payouts are a joke in the IBO amateur classes as they are now.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

When the money class isn't optional the payouts won't be to bad.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

outbackarcher said:


> I have been pushing for separating the money and trophy side. The trophy shoot will basically be a fun shoot and shoot at your leisure. The money side will be shooting with your peers and tee times or shotgun starts. The ranges will be 2 twenty target ranges. The entry fees will increase slightly in the money class as will the payouts.





outbackarcher said:


> Move up rules are included too.





outbackarcher said:


> When the money class isn't optional the payouts won't be to bad.


All of those sound like improvements over the current situation, but I hope there's much more. Drop the "fun" shoot entirely. These events are (or should be) a viewed as a major competition, there are plenty of club shoots every weekend for those who want to shoot for fun/trophies. Dump the hunter classes and go back to Open and Bowhunter classes so the classes are larger and the prizes are substantial. Winning in a small class is a hollow victory, and currently the paltry payouts for winning 1st in the largest amateur class likely won't even cover travel, lodging, and registration expenses. 

I'm not coming back until IBO shows a serious commitment to changing the way they conduct tournaments, this includes letting go of the hatred for Known distance 3D. This isn't the '80's anymore, a large number of archers want to shoot Known now.


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

nestly said:


> All of those sound like improvements over the current situation, but I hope there's much more. Drop the "fun" shoot entirely. These events are (or should be) a viewed as a major competition, there are plenty of club shoots every weekend for those who want to shoot for fun/trophies. Dump the hunter classes and go back to Open and Bowhunter classes so the classes are larger and the prizes are substantial. Winning in a small class is a hollow victory, and currently the paltry payouts for winning 1st in the largest amateur class likely won't even cover travel, lodging, and registration expenses.
> 
> I'm not coming back until IBO shows a serious commitment to changing the way they conduct tournaments, this includes letting go of the hatred for Known distance 3D. This isn't the '80's anymore, a large number of archers want to shoot Known now.


You need to have a hunter class, whether it be bowhunter or just hunter. I could be wrong, but isn't this class the largest of all? And what do they get? So I would assume they are putting a LOT of money into the IBO.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm fine if the IBO stays all unknown. lain:


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> I'm fine if the IBO stays all unknown. lain:


Yeah, and that a perfect example of why the IBO is failing. At ASA, more than half are registering in Known distance classes. Locally, almost everyone wants to use rangefinders when they come to a club shoot. I personally have no desire to shoot Known distance 3D, but I also recognize that I'm in minority and denying those who enjoy 3D but want to shoot known is just *STUPID!*. It's bad for bowhunters, and it's bad for tournament shooters. IBO is shutting out the majority of target shooters and bowhunters that now use rangefinders on a regular basis for both hunting, and target/field archery.



arrowblaster said:


> You need to have a hunter class, whether it be bowhunter or just hunter. I could be wrong, but isn't this class the largest of all? And what do they get? So I would assume they are putting a LOT of money into the IBO.


MBO was the traditional class for release/long stabilizers/moveable sights. 
MBR was the class for release/fixed pins/short stabilizers. (bowhunters), so there has always been a class to accommodate hunters/bowhunters. 
MBO used to pull 500-600 shooters at a Triple Crown event, and MBR 200-300, at Chapman MBO had 96 and MBR *24*. Those two classes are where all the adult amateur men shot except for those shooting fingers and seniors, and everyone shot for money so the awards were handsome and so was the prestige and recognition that came with a high finish. Too many classes now, and zero opportunity to even cover your trip expenses unless you're shooting Pro or Semi Pro and even then only about 10-12 Pros combined (Mens Pro/Female Pro/Senior Pro/Semi Pro) will break even.


----------



## Barrettsbows (Feb 17, 2014)

nestly said:


> Yeah, and that a perfect example of why the IBO is failing. At ASA, more than half are registering in Known distance classes. Locally, almost everyone wants to use rangefinders when they come to a club shoot. I personally have no desire to shoot Known distance 3D, but I also recognize that I'm in minority and denying those who enjoy 3D but want to shoot known is just *STUPID!*. It's bad for bowhunters, and it's bad for tournament shooters. IBO is shutting out the majority of target shooters and bowhunters that now use rangefinders on a regular basis for both hunting, and target/field archery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mbr was the class, not now. Hunter class pulls in over 100, what do others do besides MBO? Just saying this class needs to recognized at a big contributor to the IBO monies. IBO needs to put in a known class to get things back on track. I know a lot of guys that want it, and a lot that won't shoot it. I'm sure it would be MUCH larger than PHC!!


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

At Chapman

MBO - 96
MBR - 24
AHC - 41
HC - 76

The only difference between the last 3 is that MBR (45 yds) has no stabilizer restriction, and the yardage. HC (35 yds) and AHC (40 yds) should combine back into MBR and shoot appropriate yardages for grown-ups at a national level competition.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> At Chapman
> 
> MBO - 96
> MBR - 24
> ...


You should jump right in with those AHCs and whoop up on them at the Worlds there Bigshot, you probably could take home some real $$ for that win.


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

OK, back to the Chapman issue.
From what I'm reading the Chapman volunteers have throw in the towel.
Is there or is there not a contractual agreement for 2017 signed in blood, or is the search on for a new venue...?

And what happened to Gene Bihler. Did he jump ship....


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> OK, back to the Chapman issue.
> From what I'm reading the Chapman volunteers have throw in the towel.
> Is there or is there not a contractual agreement for 2017 signed in blood, or is the search on for a new venue...?
> 
> ...


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> You should jump right in with those AHCs and whoop up on them at the Worlds there Bigshot, you probably could take home some real $$ for that win.


I haven't a clue what you're talking about. The payout to win AHC is even worse than it is to win MBO. If it's the fact that I don't believe there's any reason to have a 35 yard class for adults at a national level 3D competition, yeah, I'm not making an apologies for that. When I started shooting IBO, I shot in MCA which was FINGERS/FIXED PINS/50 yd max so yeah, I don't have great respect for release shooters that only want to shoot to 35 or 40 yards. 40 yards is where the majority of the targets should begin, not end.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Bow novice and hunter class are real popular in the ASA. Unlimited is not.


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

Gene Bihler resigned in January as Vice President/Tournament Director. Several other Directors have resigned, retired or were quietly forced out.


----------



## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

NYS REP said:


> Gene Bihler resigned in January as Vice President/Tournament Director. Several other Directors have resigned, retired or were quietly forced out.


And that...is how a dictator takes absolute control.


----------



## 1ryanman (Apr 15, 2007)

Something has to change IBO is falling badly I like the unknown distances and I have shot the IBO for over 20 yrs but they need to listen to the shooters for a change that's the only way they are going to get the numbers back up.If the president don't want he change then he needs to resign and let someone take over that will make changes


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

nestly said:


> When I started shooting IBO, I shot in MCA which was FINGERS/FIXED PINS/50 yd max so yeah, I don't have great respect for release shooters that only want to shoot to 35 or 40 yards. 40 yards is where the majority of the targets should begin, not end.


I did the same thing.....MCA in the 90's. IMO, 35yds max for modern equipment is silly.

I walked with my son at Chapman. In the group was a senior HC shooter....he wasn't 80yrs old, maybe early 50's. He complained about the distance on a couple of the targets.....they were barely over 30yds! His bow was pretty quick and his pins were jammed together tight. How hard could it really be.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> I haven't a clue what you're talking about. The payout to win AHC is even worse than it is to win MBO. If it's the fact that I don't believe there's any reason to have a 35 yard class for adults at a national level 3D competition, yeah, I'm not making an apologies for that. When I started shooting IBO, I shot in MCA which was FINGERS/FIXED PINS/50 yd max so yeah, I don't have great respect for release shooters that only want to shoot to 35 or 40 yards. 40 yards is where the majority of the targets should begin, not end.


To place well at the national level you have to out score the best amateurs in the world, what difference does it make if the targets are 35 or 45 yards?


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> To place well at the national level you have to out score the best amateurs in the world, what difference does it make if the targets are 35 or 45 yards?


So Pros should also shoot 35 max too, after all distance doesn't matter as long as they're all shooting the same targets. That make the difference any clearer?


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> So Pros should also shoot 35 max too, after all distance doesn't matter as long as they're all shooting the same targets. That make the difference any clearer?


Pros have all day to judge and look at targets, some of us just like to come and shoot a course with a 35 or 40 yard max with hunting equipment.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

loujo61 said:


> Pros have all day to judge and look at targets, some of us just like to come and shoot a course with a 35 or 40 yard max with hunting equipment.


You are aware very little pros do archery full time, right ? Majority of them have Monday - Friday jobs and don't get to see targets as often as most would think.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> All of those sound like improvements over the current situation, but I hope there's much more. Drop the "fun" shoot entirely. These events are (or should be) a viewed as a major competition, there are plenty of club shoots every weekend for those who want to shoot for fun/trophies. Dump the hunter classes and go back to Open and Bowhunter classes so the classes are larger and the prizes are substantial. Winning in a small class is a hollow victory, and currently the paltry payouts for winning 1st in the largest amateur class likely won't even cover travel, lodging, and registration expenses.





nestly said:


> I personally have no desire to shoot Known distance 3D, but I also recognize that I'm in minority and denying those who enjoy 3D but want to shoot known is just *STUPID!*. Too many classes now, and zero opportunity to even cover your trip expenses unless you're shooting Pro or Semi Pro and even then only about 10-12 Pros combined (Mens Pro/Female Pro/Senior Pro/Semi Pro) will break even.





nestly said:


> The only difference between the last 3 is that MBR (45 yds) has no stabilizer restriction, and the yardage. HC (35 yds) and AHC (40 yds) should combine back into MBR and shoot appropriate yardages for grown-ups at a national level competition.





Huntin Hard said:


> You are aware very little pros do archery full time, right ? Majority of them have Monday - Friday jobs and don't get to see targets as often as most would think.


I realize that, most "grown ups" that shoot the IBO do have regular Monday - Friday jobs, and some IMO just want to go shoot and have a good time. I not taking anything away from the Pros or any of the IBO archers, I was just making light of the hypocrisy in nestly's posts.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

As said before.....IBO used to have MUCH larger attendance for both pro and amateur classes we shot slower bows and larger distances on average. There were fewer that made a living in the archery industry than there are now so your argument about either class not having the time or resources to be able to shoot out to 50 yards doesn't hold water. There's a difference between hunting and 3D.....most notably that the animals are staked to the ground. Heck, MCU (compound barebare) used to be 40 or 45 yards. Less difficult courses does not appeal to most serious competitors that might otherwise be interested in shooting the whole series. If you want to get people excited about competitive 3D the challenge must be greater than what you find at a local shoot on any given weekend

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The biggest complaint I hear about IBO, and why a lot don't shoot it anymore, is that it's hard to beat a group of buddies.
Buddies shouldn't be shooting together at a National Tournament, JMO.
It's an individual competition, not a team sport.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> The biggest complaint I hear about IBO, and why a lot don't shoot it anymore, is that it's hard to beat a group of buddies.
> Buddies shouldn't be shooting together at a National Tournament, JMO.
> It's an individual competition, not a team sport.


Yep, that too. If you wanna shoot with your buds, go to a local shoot and do whatever you want. I think IBO does "try" to bust up groups, but at a national level shoot, you really shouldn't even be shooting with your buddy even if there are one or two others in the group. It's not a team sport, put yourself in an uncomfortable situation and meet some new people.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

All of the national IBO shoots i've been too have busted groups, Most of our state(NY) and local shoots do as well.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

nestly said:


> .....IBO used to have MUCH larger attendance for both pro and amateur classes we shot slower bows and larger distances on average.


But today we like to have everyone hit the middle. And it's cool to say you shot "12 up". And now at 35yd max's the hunter classes hardly even have to guess distance.

Soon enough we will all get trophies for participating. Oh wait.............that's already happening.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> As said before.....IBO used to have MUCH larger attendance for both pro and amateur classes we shot slower bows and larger distances on average. There were fewer that made a living in the archery industry than there are now so your argument about either class not having the time or resources to be able to shoot out to 50 yards doesn't hold water. There's a difference between hunting and 3D.....most notably that the animals are staked to the ground. Heck, MCU (compound barebare) used to be 40 or 45 yards. Less difficult courses does not appeal to most serious competitors that might otherwise be interested in shooting the whole series. If you want to get people excited about competitive 3D the challenge must be greater than what you find at a local shoot on any given weekend
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


The challenge of an IBO is always greater than at a local shoot, you have the best amateurs at an IBO. If you want to shoot a 50 yard max with open equipment that's great, MBO is probably the toughest IBO amateur class, and, as you know it takes much dedication to place well in that class. Some of us (like me) don't want to dedicate that much of our lives into judging yardage or carrying around a bow with a long rod and lens, we just want to have fun and place well in our class. Take the known yardage Guys, they just want to shoot foam they don't want to judge it, I'd bet you have to be on your toes to beat those Guys at their game.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> Yep, that too. If you wanna shoot with your buds, go to a local shoot and do whatever you want. I think IBO does "try" to bust up groups, but at a national level shoot, you really shouldn't even be shooting with your buddy even if there are one or two others in the group. It's not a team sport, put yourself in an uncomfortable situation and meet some new people.


I agree.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

DBowers01 said:


> But today we like to have everyone hit the middle. And it's cool to say you shot "12 up". And now at 35yd max's the hunter classes hardly even have to guess distance.
> 
> Soon enough we will all get trophies for participating. Oh wait.............that's already happening.


"12 up" or "everyone" won't win HC or SHC, there's Big Boys in those classes that can flat out shoot, and you have to judge very well to hit that many X's.


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Yes. I am the competition director for the IBO. Thursday before the event was the first time I had been to the location.


A question about this, why wouldn't an IBO representative be there checking all the ranges before the event? And why doesn't the IBO have guidelines for setting up a shoot? To change the location subject a moment I was very disappointed in the Cleveland Indoor World this year. They moved to the other side of the building and it was very dark in there, it was hard to see scoring rings with binoculars. Also I never seen a 40 target shoot of all little animals? There was 4 or 5 of every little critter and all the deer, elk and sheep were bedded. I know why, it was easy to set up. The back row could shoot over the small front row. The result was it was the worst indoor shoot of the year I seen. The Indiana indoor shoots were much better than the world, it shouldn't be that way. The IBO needs to upgrade their standards of how a shoot is ran. I also agree they need a known yardage class. I personally would not shoot it but I know many people that would and are waiting on it. I believe many clubs just cannot handle a large event like this, it's up to the IBO to change this before they continue the spiral down in attendance. I hope the outdoor world this year is a good event, I have been looking forward to it.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

This topic has been beat to death starting at least 8 years ago. I know this topic, IBO is shrinking while the ASA grows, was here on AT at least 8 years ago. 

The IBO tournament format for the amateur classes is "very user friendly" as in casual and should not even be considered serious competition. It falls somewhere between a real competition format and a Rinehart R100 fun shoot. Actually it's much more like an R100 than an ASA tournament.

About 10 years ago when I really started competing I fully expected I would end up shooting many more national IBO tournaments than ASA tournaments. The exact opposite has happened! Though the ASA tournaments are typically twice as far I shot 6 ASA shoots last year and after the Classic I will have 5 under my belt this year. I haven't shot even a local or state IBO in 4 or 5 years so obviously I haven't kept my IBO membership paid up. I haven't even checked the IBO schedule in years!

It is said it is best to be proactive rather than reactive. Well the IBO is neither. IBO leadership reminds me of the American car industry leaders back when Americans started buying the better built Toyota, Datsun (Nissan), Isuzu and Subaru small trucks and cars. They insisted Americans would not buy them while the market was buying the heck out of them! I don't their heads are stuck in the sand but it is stuck up something.

Just let the IBO die so that something better can grow from the fertilized soil.........


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

nestly said:


> Yep, that too. If you wanna shoot with your buds, go to a local shoot and do whatever you want. I think IBO does "try" to bust up groups, but at a national level shoot, you really shouldn't even be shooting with your buddy even if there are one or two others in the group. It's not a team sport, put yourself in an uncomfortable situation and meet some new people.


Don't see where this even matter to f groups are busted up or not which the volunteers did what they could to bust up groups at chapman. But the other side of that they were also told by BRyan MArcum to not enforce the rules. 
As far as yardage is concerned if you don't like the fact a class has 35 yds max don't shoot it the next guy might be happy shooters my that class


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

My only response to both of those points is that it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about what it means (or should mean) to shoot at a major competiton, much less a "national level" tournament.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Only 20 more days to the classic any ibo guy who never attended an Asa come on out and see how a real archery tournament is done


----------



## Barrettsbows (Feb 17, 2014)

T&A said:


> Only 20 more days to the classic any ibo guy who never attended an Asa come on out and see how a real archery tournament is done


Probably a lot would if it's close to the northeast.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

nestly said:


> My only response to both of those points is that it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about what it means (or should mean) to shoot at a major competiton, much less a "national level" tournament.


Yeah you are probably right 
Thank you so much for clearing that up


----------



## 419donny (Jun 22, 2008)

sagecreek said:


> The biggest complaint I hear about IBO, and why a lot don't shoot it anymore, is that it's hard to beat a group of buddies.
> Buddies shouldn't be shooting together at a National Tournament, JMO.
> It's an individual competition, not a team sport.


agree


----------



## hdrat (Mar 7, 2009)

sagecreek said:


> The biggest complaint I hear about IBO, and why a lot don't shoot it anymore, is that it's hard to beat a group of buddies.
> Buddies shouldn't be shooting together at a National Tournament, JMO.
> It's an individual competition, not a team sport.


There's another way to look at it. If your'e shooting with your'e buddies and your'e in the same class, why would there be cheating going on when your'e competing against them for score. Also if you shoot enough ASA, ,your'e eventually end up knowing a lot of the shooters, since everybody in your'e class shoot the same coarse.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Wow... I can hardly believe that we're even having a discussion about whether groups of buddies should be permitted to shoot together during competition.


----------



## Mead (Jun 19, 2002)

Whoever said the original classes were MBO for unlimited equipment with long stabilizers and MBR was for 12 inch stabilizers is wrong. Both classes had a 12' stabilizer rule, and they both had max yardage of 50. Along the way, both classes went to long stabilizers and eventually MBR moved in to a 45 yard max. When the hunter class was introduced, the number of shooters exploded in that class. The reason people shoot the Hunter Class is that they don't want to judge yardage. They can be competitive without judging yardage. Unfortunately, nobody has seen that as being the primary reason why the majority of shooters shoot in that class. It's labeled as a "beginner" class, but we all know beginners don't make up the majority of the class. It would probably be okay to bring yardages in to 45 yards and go back to two main classes of MBR and MBO. Having a class for every five yards is ridiculous. Although I prefer to shoot unmarked yardage, a marked yardage class is necessary to grow the organization. It could eliminate the hunter class and allow the original classes to stay as they were originally designed. National IBO tournaments used to be the most coveted tournaments to win in 3D archery because of the difficulty level. Over the years, I've competed in most of the original classes, and I've had success in all of them. In the late '90s I made the top peer group in MBO when the average number of shooters in the class was around 750 shooters per tournament. Although the numbers have gone down, it's still extremely hard to win any class because the best shooters in the northern United States are shooting the tournaments. It doesn't water down the wins for people. You have to be in it to win it. While I'm disappointed at the decline in numbers, I will continue to supper the IBO because I enjoy shooting the tournaments. Indiana was probably the best run tournament I've ever shot, and I've shot plenty of ASA and Cabela's shoots over the years. There will always be hiccups. Unless you stand up and offer your help, nothing will change. Offer help and come up with good ideas. We need change, but how do we go about making the changes and having them applied. I'm actively involved in the IBO and I'm doing my best to listen, evaluate and move forward. For all the people who want ASA in the North, I'd assume most of you have forgotten the one year they ASA came to eastern Pennsylvania. The Northeast also tried running an ASA triple crown for a few years. The results were not what most thought they would be, hence the reason why the ASA has not made a run in the North.


----------



## hdrat (Mar 7, 2009)

nestly said:


> Wow... I can hardly believe that we're even having a discussion about whether groups of buddies should be permitted to shoot together during competition.


Then why did you comment on it earlier. ?


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Mead said:


> Whoever said the original classes were MBO for unlimited equipment with long stabilizers and MBR was for 12 inch stabilizers is wrong. Both classes had a 12' stabilizer rule, and they both had max yardage of 50. Along the way, both classes went to long stabilizers and eventually MBR moved in to a 45 yard max. When the hunter class was introduced, the number of shooters exploded in that class. The reason people shoot the Hunter Class is that they don't want to judge yardage. They can be competitive without judging yardage. Unfortunately, nobody has seen that as being the primary reason why the majority of shooters shoot in that class. It's labeled as a "beginner" class, but we all know beginners don't make up the majority of the class. It would probably be okay to bring yardages in to 45 yards and go back to two main classes of MBR and MBO. Having a class for every five yards is ridiculous. Although I prefer to shoot unmarked yardage, a marked yardage class is necessary to grow the organization. It could eliminate the hunter class and allow the original classes to stay as they were originally designed. National IBO tournaments used to be the most coveted tournaments to win in 3D archery because of the difficulty level. Over the years, I've competed in most of the original classes, and I've had success in all of them. In the late '90s I made the top peer group in MBO when the average number of shooters in the class was around 750 shooters per tournament. Although the numbers have gone down, it's still extremely hard to win any class because the best shooters in the northern United States are shooting the tournaments. It doesn't water down the wins for people. You have to be in it to win it. While I'm disappointed at the decline in numbers, I will continue to supper the IBO because I enjoy shooting the tournaments. Indiana was probably the best run tournament I've ever shot, and I've shot plenty of ASA and Cabela's shoots over the years. There will always be hiccups. Unless you stand up and offer your help, nothing will change. Offer help and come up with good ideas. We need change, but how do we go about making the changes and having them applied. I'm actively involved in the IBO and I'm doing my best to listen, evaluate and move forward. For all the people who want ASA in the North, I'd assume most of you have forgotten the one year they ASA came to eastern Pennsylvania. The Northeast also tried running an ASA triple crown for a few years. The results were not what most thought they would be, hence the reason why the ASA has not made a run in the North.


I think the Asa failed before in the north because at that time they were the new kid on the block and also at that time the ibo was strong and thriving but now it is dieing a slow death due to its lack of listening to its shooters and refusing to make changes with the times I would think just about any type of new organization that was run properly would succeed in the north


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mead said:


> ... For all the people who want ASA in the North, I'd assume most of you have forgotten the one year they ASA came to eastern Pennsylvania. ....


Not just once, I shot the ASA ProAm at Ski Round Top, Pennsylvania ('93 or '94) and the numbers weren't bad, it's was just too far for the regular ASA shooters to travel, just like ASA is too far for regular IBO shooters to travel. I wasn't shooting 3D in 2005 when ASA came to PA again at Little Buffalo State Park.


----------



## cowdocdvm (Apr 24, 2011)

nestly said:


> Not just once, I shot the ASA ProAm at Ski Round Top, Pennsylvania ('93 or '94) and the numbers weren't bad, it's was just too far for the regular ASA shooters to travel, just like ASA is too far for regular IBO shooters to travel. I wasn't shooting 3D in 2005 when ASA came to PA again at Little Buffalo State Park.



Come on back ASA the door is wide open for you now. Love to see it happen


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

cowdocdvm said:


> Come on back ASA the door is wide open for you now. Love to see it happen


Yeah, Ill no doubt attend at least 1 or 2 ASA's next year. My passion for competitive 3D has been rekindled, but after Warren, I have absolutely no interest in IBO until/unless they announce significant change.... (I'm not holding my breath)


----------



## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

I've been shooting nothing but ASA Federation shoots in MI and IND this year. Lots of guys around here talk about how much they dislike IBO and want to switch to ASA. But when push comes to shove, none of them have have turned up at the Federation shoots, and still shoot the IBO stuff. I'd love to see a ASA Pro-Am come back up North, but I'm not sure if the shooters would really make the change up here....I'm unclear on what the hang-up is. Maybe the speed limits??? Can't shoot whenever you want?? IDK.. To me, it's the only game I wanna play anymore, and I've been shooting IBO TC since mid 90's.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I think the Regions experiment has shown that the ASA format isn't going to work in IBO country any time soon.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ahcnc said:


> ..... But when push comes to shove, none of them have have turned up at the Federation shoots, and still shoot the IBO stuff. I'd love to see a ASA Pro-Am come back up North, but I'm not sure if the shooters would really make the change up here....I'm unclear on what the hang-up is. Maybe the speed limits??? Can't shoot whenever you want??


Although they won't admit it, most IBO'ers just can't hang with the ASA'ers in a legitimate competitive format. I saw it back in the 90's when me and all my buds who thought we hot shots went South thinking we'd show the southern boys how it's done, and I still see it now when the local big shots go to an ASA thinking they'll come home with all the cheddar, but end up slinking home with their tail between their legs. For me, it inspired me to get better and I got thrashed for a while until I stepped up my game, but most of my friends got discouraged and just stayed up North where they had a better chance of winning. Yeah, it happens the other way too, but as a whole, ASA is much more of a thinking mans game and they are more committed to 3D than the typical IBO'er. Choosing your own time and conditions to take a walk through the woods with your buddies, isn't the same as standing on a course and seeing 100 other archers (+ spectators) to your left and right. 




Supermag1 said:


> I think the Regions experiment has shown that the ASA format isn't going to work in IBO country any time soon.


Well, the numbers show that IBO format isn't working all that well in IBO country either.


----------



## BowRod (Apr 24, 2003)

Marcum really needs to read this thread...every post. ALOT of good stuff. Shot IJKL, Open Class. Most of us in the open class just want a good place to stand and a clear unobstructed target we can see. We'll take it from there.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> Although they won't admit it, most IBO'ers just can't hang with the ASA'ers in a legitimate competitive format. I saw it back in the 90's when me and all my buds who thought we hot shots went South thinking we'd show the southern boys how it's done, and I still see it now when the local big shots go to an ASA thinking they'll come home with all the cheddar, but end up slinking home with their tail between their legs. For me, it inspired me to get better and I got thrashed for a while until I stepped up my game, but most of my friends got discouraged and just stayed up North where they had a better chance of winning. Yeah, it happens the other way too, but as a whole, ASA is much more of a thinking mans game and they are more committed to 3D than the typical IBO'er. Choosing your own time and conditions to take a walk through the woods with your buddies, isn't the same as standing on a course and seeing 100 other archers (+ spectators) to your left and right.


I don't know how you figured on that, I know it's not from experience. ASA has a move up list and most of the amateur classes shoot unknown the first day and known the next. IBO lets their amateurs win year after year in most of their classes, and they shoot unknown. So how can the competition be tougher in the ASA amateur classes when the better shooters win out and have to move up from year to year? IMO IBO needs a move up list.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> I don't know how you figured on that, I know it's not from experience. ASA has a move up list and most of the amateur classes shoot unknown the first day and known the next. IBO lets their amateurs win year after year in most of their classes, and they shoot unknown. So how can the competition be tougher in the ASA amateur classes when the better shooters win out and have to move up from year to year? IMO IBO needs a move up list.


Really? There have been 6 times where I shot 3 or more ASA ProAms and 3 or more IBO NTC/World events in the same year, with my highest total being 13 national tournaments in a single year (ASA, IBO, Cabelas series). I'm not going to make assumptions about how much experience you have competing in *both* ASA and IBO series, but I feel you're amiss questioning mine.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

hdrat said:


> There's another way to look at it. If your'e shooting with your'e buddies and your'e in the same class, why would there be cheating going on when your'e competing against them for score. Also if you shoot enough ASA, ,your'e eventually end up knowing a lot of the shooters, since everybody in your'e class shoot the same coarse.


Yep, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Pretty good group.


----------



## T.P (Jun 29, 2016)

Supermag1 said:


> I think the Regions experiment has shown that the ASA format isn't going to work in* IBO country *any time soon.


doesn't seem like the regions experiment has had success in any part of the country, so ...


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

loujo61 said:


> "12 up" or "everyone" won't win HC or SHC, there's Big Boys in those classes that can flat out shoot, and you have to judge very well to hit that many X's.


I shot a Hunter Class style course yesterday. 30 targets and I shot (funny actually) 12 up. It was pretty easy. 2-8's and 16-x's. Another 10 targets I could have posted another 5-6 x's.

My point is that with modern equipment and velocity, 35yds max, and simply aiming for the middle of the ten, it is a beginners class/course. There should not be legions of classes arranged around it........HC, AHC, SHC. Just an opinion from someone that saw IBO in it's prime and now seeing the IBO failing.


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> My point is that with modern equipment and velocity, 35yds max, and simply aiming for the middle of the ten, it is a beginners class/course.


Unless your bow is very fast that will give you some 8s high and low and a few Xs. You must be very good to think its a beginners class, your name must be on many IBO top 5s?


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

rockyw said:


> Unless your bow is very fast that will give you some 8s high and low and a few Xs. You must be very good to think its a beginners class, your name must be on many IBO top 5s?


My "aiming for the middle" point was that there is no challenge or danger in aiming for the X. It's in the middle of the ten ring. Estimate the range, select your pin and aim in the middle. With my set up at 319fps, the 25 and 35yd pin both stay in 95% of the 10 rings. If it's short, use the 25. If it's long, use the 35. Hard stuff there buddy. At least ASA has some danger is shooting for the 12 or 14.

And if you want to talk resume, before I quit shooting in 1999 (age 21) I collected my share of PA state paper and 3D titles as well as a bunch of top fives in the finger/fixed pin division of the IBO nationals. As a college student at that time my travel was limited but when I went, I did very well. I just now got back into it with my kids (the entire reason this thread was started) and want to enjoy the sport with them. Then it turned into an IBO bashing thread. Now, you are coming at me. So, if you want to do that, I've earned my scars and can attest to the fact that 3D is getting dumbed down with the 35yd max courses.

I will say that archers are better now than they were in my "day". But training, equipment and technology has all contributed to that. So utilize it and stretch your personal limits instead of shrinking them.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

People will never grow as an archer if they don't challenge themselves.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

sagecreek said:


> People will never grow as an archer if they don't challenge themselves.


Only quoted to add...........People will never grow_ in anything _if they don't challenge themselves


----------



## unks24 (Jul 6, 2012)

rockyw said:


> Unless your bow is very fast that will give you some 8s high and low and a few Xs. You must be very good to think its a beginners class, your name must be on many IBO top 5s?


I second that one, you and I have shot a lot of these and know really how it is.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

Let me correct something..........it SHOULD be a beginner class. One year and out.


----------



## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

I sorry but I don't get it , I don't care what u shoot so why do u care what I shoot as long as we all shoot .


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

So lets put some things in perspective.

15 year old boys shoot farther than HC
Ladies shoot farther than HC
Fingers shoot farther than HC
Old men and old women (including the 70+ division) shoot farther than HC
The only adult class that doesn't shoot farther than HC is Recurve and Traditional (and those are only 5 yds shorter)

If HC, isn't a class intended for beginners and novices, I don't know what is.... lol.


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

What does the yardage or equipment have to do with anything? I'm lost. You shoot against other people on the same course with the same equipment and have to produce a better score than the rest of the field to win. Of course there are going to be a lot of X's shot in a 35/40 yard class by the better shooters.... so what. That's the nature of those particular classes. You still have be better than everyone else that chose to shoot that class that weekend. 

I suppose shooting a high x count and very few 8's isn't challenging to some, but to others it might be.

Just stay on your high horses and tell everyone else how to enjoy their 3d shooting as you dictate appropriate. Oh mighty gods of 3d, we bow to your superiority.

I will agree that the IBO *HC classes are intended to be a beginner class, however in reality it's not that in lot of ways. To suggest that the winners of those classes only won because their bows are fast and yardage isn't as critical is absolutely one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on here in awhile. However it pales in comparison to how ridiculous it is to tell someone else how they should enjoy their 3d shooting or telling someone else what they should consider a challenge based on your own OPINION.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

grandd7 said:


> I sorry but I don't get it , I don't care what u shoot so why do u care what I shoot as long as we all shoot .


True.

I think the root of the issue is the organizing bodies making too many classes and breaking groups of shooters up into smaller "sub" divisions that do not really need to exist in the competitive end of the sport. For a man shooting a release with a compound bow there could be two groups....MBO and MBR. Then if you are over 50, Sr MBO and Sr MBR. Beyond that you lessen the shooters per category. When I was cutting my teeth in the IBO, my first event was a tough one to swallow. I was one of the best in my area. After shooting a IBO National event I realized I needed to get better. So I buckled down and did so. I didn't look at the rules, figure which class I could slide into and easily compete in. I picked the hardest class for my equipment and went after it.

If the trend continues, we will have a SAHC (Super Adv Hunter Class) that shoots only on Tuesday afternoons when it's 71.5 degrees with a 14.68" stabilizer rule. How rewarding is it to be the best National shooter in a class of one.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

Sean243 said:


> What does the yardage or equipment have to do with anything? I'm lost. You shoot against other people on the same course with the same equipment and have to produce a better score than the rest of the field to win. Of course there are going to be a lot of X's shot in a 35/40 yard class by the better shooters.... so what. That's the nature of those particular classes. You still have be better than everyone else that chose to shoot that class that weekend.
> 
> I suppose shooting a high x count and very few 8's isn't challenging to some, but to others it might be.
> 
> ...


See post #147.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Sean243 said:


> What does the yardage or equipment have to do with anything? I'm lost. You shoot against other people on the same course with the same equipment and have to produce a better score than the rest of the field to win. Of course there are going to be a lot of X's shot in a 35/40 yard class by the better shooters.... so what. That's the nature of those particular classes. You still have be better than everyone else that chose to shoot that class that weekend.
> 
> I suppose shooting a high x count and very few 8's isn't challenging to some, but to others it might be.
> 
> ...


There are no classes in NFAA, or World Archery, or Olympics (or any other sport I can think of) created specifically to prop up those who want to shoot big boy scores, but don't want to contend with big boy difficulty. Want so shoot a big score? .... I say practice more instead of moving closer to the target


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

nestly said:


> There are no classes in NFAA, or World Archery, or Olympics (or any other sport I can think of) created specifically to prop up those who want to shoot big boy scores, but don't want to contend with big boy difficulty. Want so shoot a big score? .... I say practice more instead of moving closer to the target


The scores are a result of the distance and the equipment, very true indeed.

Now to address the opinionated portion of your post. It would seem that you are suggesting "everyone" in those classes shoots there for a high score. It couldn't be because they like to shoot short stabilizers and fixed pins at distances that more closely resemble actual hunting distances.... 

I have to shoot that equipment (equipment that I enjoy shooting) at a distance greater than 40 yards but not much more than 50 to be considered a legitimate 3d Archer??? Otherwise, myself and everyone else that shoots that kind of equipment are just scum at the bottom of the 3d pond?

Ok, got it. Allow me to consider your OPINION for a moment..... hmmm....., yep don't see it and I'm not even tempted to change my opinion ( and that's all it is ) based on an edict sent down from someone at the pinnacle of 3d archery's pyramid of greatness.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

When I started shooting IBO/3D, I shot *fingers*, with *fixed pins*, and *short stabilizers*, and *50 yards*, just like all the other adult male classes shooting compound bows. I was probably not even shooting *240 FPS* back then and 60% was considered "high letoff", so cry me a river about how difficult it is to shoot 50 yards with a mechanical release at today's bow speeds. I'll put it as plainly as I can, if an able bodied adult man can't consistently hit a rubber deer staked to the ground at 50 yards, they frankly have no business at a major competition. Similar metrics can and should be applied to any type of competition. Everyone should enjoy their sports and hobbies at their own level, but not everyone at every level deserves a class at a national level competition.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

nestly and I seem to be singing the same tune. 

Neither of us has claimed superior skill sets over anyone else in this thread. However, some folks seem to assume we are better....thanks!!


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

nestly said:


> When I started shooting IBO/3D, I shot *fingers*, with *fixed pins*, and *short stabilizers*, and *50 yards*, just like all the other adult male classes shooting compound bows. I was probably not even shooting *240 FPS* back then and 60% was considered "high letoff", so cry me a river about how difficult it is to shoot 50 yards with a mechanical release at today's bow speeds. I'll put it as plainly as I can, if an able bodied adult man can't consistently hit a rubber deer staked to the ground at 50 yards, they frankly have no business at a major competition. Similar metrics can and should be applied to any type of competition. Everyone should enjoy their sports and hobbies at their own level, but not everyone at every level deserves a class at a national level competition.


Opinions, opinions, opinions....

And you walked uphill both ways to the competition courses, let's not forget.


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

DBowers01 said:


> nestly and I seem to be singing the same tune.
> 
> Neither of us has claimed superior skill sets over anyone else in this thread. However, some folks seem to assume we are better....thanks!!


I agree, you have not claimed a superior skill set outright. At the same time it's hard not to see an implication of an inferior skill set possessed by those who choose to compete in a class that happens to have a shorter maximum distance than (according to your own held beliefs) what you consider to be legitimate.

This is the current state of 3d archery at this point and time. Why do you care so much that it's not the distance you guys prefer to shoot? It's an available class and some of the people posting clearly seem to look down their noses at those who compete in those classes. There are more than a couple statements in this thread that seem to reflect a perceived superiority by those that shoot in the open classes, with basically unrestricted equipment and that big scary extra 10 or 15 yards of distance.


----------



## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

Sean243 said:


> There are more than a couple statements in this thread that seem to reflect a perceived superiority by those that shoot in the open classes, with basically unrestricted equipment and that big scary extra 10 or 15 yards of distance.


None by me..........I don't shoot Open. Never have shot Open. I've always been a pin shooter.

I just think there are too many classes. That's my thought...opinion....whatever. When you spread shooters too thin, the competition also thins out, payouts disappear, etc, etc. Add to that the issue of not drawing enough shooters to a venue to attract decent sponsor attendance (no Lancaster at IBO Chapman).


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> Really? There have been 6 times where I shot 3 or more ASA ProAms and 3 or more IBO NTC/World events in the same year, with my highest total being 13 national tournaments in a single year (ASA, IBO, Cabelas series). I'm not going to make assumptions about how much experience you have competing in *both* ASA and IBO series, but I feel you're amiss questioning mine.


If you win out of Hunter class in the ASA you have to move up to unlimited or Open B, ASA doesn't cater to the bow hunter's like the I(B)O does, IBO has HC, AHC, MBR, or PHC. You don't shoot pins so how much do you or can you know about it?


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

DBowers01 said:


> None by me..........I don't shoot Open. Never have shot Open. I've always been a pin shooter.
> 
> I just think there are too many classes. That's my thought...opinion....whatever. When you spread shooters too thin, the competition also thins out, payouts disappear, etc, etc. Add to that the issue of not drawing enough shooters to a venue to attract decent sponsor attendance (no Lancaster at IBO Chapman).


There is certainly some merit to that argument. I'm only speaking to the condescending tone by some directed towards those that do shoot hunter type equipment in the currently available classes.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I have not expressed any negative sentiment toward those who shoot "hunter type equipment". My grievance is the distance at which HC shoots during a major tournaments. 

Someone mentioned inferior skill set earlier. I never said or suggested that myself, but it's actually a good point. Realistically who's got a better skill set, those who shoot longer distances, or those who shoot shorter? 

IBO, (and ASA) aren't doing anything to compel archers to develop the skills to shoot longer distances. If anything, max distances at 3D should be increasing not shrinking because bows are faster, optics are better, and the widespread use of electronic rangefinding. I guarantee that faster bows and electronic rangefinders have increased the distance for average hunting shot, so why is 3D going the other direction? It's not about bowhunters, or equipment, it's about a degradation of the level of competition. I'd feel the same way if Olympics decided to shorten competition from 70 meters to 50 meters. What are we really accomplishing by making it easier to score higher except to lower the standard for excellence.


----------



## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

Why does hunter class in IBO have so many shooters , the shorter distance? Why in ASA the know classes so popular ,maybe just shooting just something to think about.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> If you win out of Hunter class in the ASA you have to move up to unlimited or Open B, ASA doesn't cater to the bow hunter's like the I(B)O does, IBO has HC, AHC, MBR, or PHC. You don't shoot pins so how much do you or can you know about it?


IBO also has "move up" rules for the Entry Level HC classes.... it's been that way for years.
Re: Pins As stated previously, I started target archery with fixed pins, and shot fixed pins for many years in IBO because there was no class for movable sights with fingers... and we shot from the long stakes. I would also like to point out that back then, we didn't shoot many of the large targets used today. We had the Elk, and the standing bear, other than those, I don't believe there were any other targets than had a chest more than 13" deep. I think that's part of what I miss in 3D these days... shooting relatively short distances at a 12 ring just doesn't provided the same excitement as walking up to the stake and seeing a 47 yard jake turkey quartered such that there're no foam between the edge of the 10-ring and the ground behind.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

grandd7 said:


> Why does hunter class in IBO have so many shooters , the shorter distance? Why in ASA the know classes so popular ,maybe just shooting just something to think about.


"so many" ? There were only 76 registered in HC at the 3rd leg (69 turned in scores). --> link

To answer your question thought, IBO DOES NOT have many HC shooters, and less than half HC shot more than one NTC in 2016, so just like all the other classes, IBO has a very small percentage of shooters that are serious competitors.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> IBO also has "move up" rules for the Entry Level HC classes.... it's been that way for years.
> Re: Pins As stated previously, I started target archery with fixed pins, and shot fixed pins for many years in IBO because there was no class for movable sights with fingers... and we shot from the long stakes. I would also like to point out that back then, we didn't shoot many of the large targets used today. We had the Elk, and the standing bear, other than those, I don't believe there were any other targets than had a chest more than 13" deep. I think that's part of what I miss in 3D these days... shooting relatively short distances at a 12 ring just doesn't provided the same excitement as walking up to the stake and seeing a 47 yard jake turkey quartered such that there're no foam between the edge of the 10-ring and the ground behind.


The IBO finally did make HC winners move up but not the other classes, I shot with multiple Triple Crown winners and World champions in AHC and now in SHC I see SOYs and World champions in there too, so don't tell me how entry level those classes are. 
If you shoot Open A- ASA or MBO- IBO you won't have to worry about shooting short distances or known yardage. Shoot the class that you like, it's as easy as that.


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Let me correct something..........it SHOULD be a beginner class. One year and out.


Seriously shooting hunter class is fun, reading all this hunter class is to easy is what's boring. At last years worlds there were almost 400 men and ladies in hunter class. Do you have to shoot up to be in the top of your class, yes. But that's the challenge, shoot 2 or 3 targets 5 yards short or long and you have to make up a few 8s or a 5 to shoot even or better. Its about the equipment you choose to use. I know a lot of great shooters and never heard one say a course was to easy. I have shot HC, SHC and now MHC. I hope to continue that as long as I can. See you at worlds in a few weeks.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> I shot with multiple Triple Crown winners and World champions in AHC and now in SHC I see SOYs and World champions in there too,so don't tell me how entry level those classes are.


I'm sorry if it offends you, but it's the IBO itself, not me that defines HC, FHC, MHC, etc as *Level 3 - Entry Level Adult Classes*. In general terms, the ASA equivalent is "Bow Novice. Level One is 8yrs and younger, Level Two is 17yrs and under, but as noted, even 15-17yo boys shoot farther than HC. The fact that some shooters are remaining in the beginner classes and shooting courses and distances intended for entry level shooters doesn't diminish my points about the nature of the competition in Hunter Classes.

3 weeks ago, I walked around a 3D course with a man and his 11yo son that had never shot 3D before to help them get acquainted with 3D format/rules/scoring/yardage etc. The boy shot 25yd max stake and his dad shot the 35 max stake. I saw them again this past weekend (along with mom) In their 3rd time ever at a 3D shoot, the 11yo and mom shot 35yd stakes because the boy thought 25 was too easy, and Dad shot 50 yd max. So congrats to all the career HC shooters, you've just been put to shame by a preteen boy shooting from your stake with a bow that's under 200 fps, and an actual "entry level 3D adult" that chose to shoot "Pro" stake rather than 35 yd max.


----------



## BowRod (Apr 24, 2003)

This thread is so far of track...come on guys. Start another one about the classes & difficulty levels. This thread started off pointing out the flaws within the IBO and a lot of good ideas on how to fix them and make it better. No we're picking on each other...which is kinda fun, but belongs in another thread.LOL. You all are great, no go practice.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Classes and difficulty level are some of the flaws that contribute to lack of support for IBO. If shooters are never compelled to shoot more than 35 yds, then where are the truly great 3D shooters of tomorrow going to come from? ASA is also dumbing down competitive 3D, but at least they're making it worthwhile to attend by offering decent payouts and a much better experience while at the tournament venue. At Warren IBO, I doubt there was a single amateur shooter in any class that "broke even" when factoring registration and travel/lodging expenses.... and maybe that's true for the 1st and 2nd leg as well.

As for the "good ideas", lets be realistic. IBO hasn't listened in the past, and it's unlikely that they're listening now, so every bit of this is a debate between people that have no ability to change anything. The best thing that could happen now is for shooters and vendors to boycott IBO so it just goes away and clears the road for an actual competitive series to take its place


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

Yeah!!!

They could call it the nestly international 3d circuit.

TWO classes: fingers 49 yard max.

and release: 51 yards max

No gender or age classes.

Every manufacturer in archery would set up in the vending area. There would be 20 hotels within a 5 minute drive. $60 a night for 4 star and not more then $80 a night for 5 star accommodations.

Sponsors will fight each other to throw prize money at it. Airlines will offer shooter discounts to those that live too far away from a venue.

Volunteers will be banned from the organization if they set a target under 44 yards. All shooters must stand with their leading foot touching behind the shooting stake too. To do anything else clearly demonstrates you are an archer of very low skill.

Just listen to this hater, he has all the answers. It's so easy to run a huge shooting organization. 

It'd be so easy to pull off, wh


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Sean243 said:


> Yeah!!!
> 
> They could call it the nestly international 3d circuit.
> 
> ...


Entertaining... But there's not any aspect of your plan that I would endorse. The only part even worth commenting on is whether its "easy" to run a successful archery organization/tournament. Clearly IT'S NOT but ASA has been showing the world how to do it since their first year while IBO has been showing the opposite

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

BowRod said:


> *This thread is so far of track...come on guys. Start another one about the classes & difficulty levels*. This thread started off pointing out the flaws within the IBO and a lot of good ideas on how to fix them and make it better. No we're picking on each other...which is kinda fun, but belongs in another thread.LOL. You all are great, no go practice.


Exactly! At this point the definitions of IBO classes is well down the list of things to "fix".

The IBO's immediate _should _do list:
1. Leadership needs to get it's collective heads out of their own butts. Any leadership member that does not think anything needs to change for the IBO to remain viable should be sent packing!
2. see #1
3. see #1
4. Apply _proven_ 3D tournament structures. For example, shotgun start, assigned groups, one male and one female known distance class(s). 

I'm starting to suspect that the IBO leadership is perfectly comfortable with where the IBO is and where it is headed. Why else are they many, many years behind in implementing improvements?


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

nestly said:


> Entertaining... But there's not any aspect of your plan that I would endorse. The only part even worth commenting on is whether its "easy" to run a successful archery organization/tournament. Clearly IT'S NOT but ASA has been showing the world how to do it since their first year while IBO has been showing the opposite
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


You have to cater to what the shooters want and what sells. I try to get my bow hunting friends to go to the local 3Ds all the time, I tell them that 3D will show them how easy it is to miss and how it will make them a better shot in the deer woods but they never seem to show. At our local shoots you will see some hunters at the end of summer pull out their 20 year old bow and aluminum arrows and shoot a few 3Ds, most guys just shoot in the back yard a few weeks before season. I guess we are a dying breed, I would hate to see the IBO go away.


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

3D has never appealed to that many "hunters" except right before hunting season. Those who shoot 3D on a regular basis usually have an inclination toward other forms of competitive archery, that's why I believe IBO has been making a mistake catering to bowhunters. Yeah, there are A LOT more bowhunters than tournament archers, but does that really matter if the bowhunters won't travel to the shoots? 

Around here, serious 3D'ers are few and far between as well, but I don't think it has to be that way.... it's certainly not in ASA country where they're setting attendance records. So yes, you have to cater to the shooters, but first you have to understand what the shooters that will actually show up really want.


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok, I apologize for going off on a tangent. Nestly and I will have to agree to disagree on the advanced shooter/yardage subject.

Now to something we agree on, the IBO does not seem to want to listen to their members. They are rapidly approaching a fork in the road though. Soon they'll have to die away from lack of attendance and dwindling sponsor support or start listening. It seems pretty clear that there can't be much in between at this point.

I do not want to see it just die though. I want them to make the right decisions and improve things (undoubtedly that will not be an overnight fix). I can't understand why anyone hates them so badly as to just want to see them fold up.


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

I certainly do not want to see the IBO fold up. ASA is a great bunch I'm sure but I don't like the scoring or the classes so I never have and never will shoot an ASA coarse. The IBO has made some bad choices in locations and not holding clubs that host and set up to a standard. The result has been a decrease in attendance. I also think they need to add a known distance class for ladies and men. The 2nd leg in Indiana this year was a very nice ran shoot and setup nicely. I few changes and I think they can make a come back.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

ASA = privately owned= they need to make money to survive and prosper.

IBO = Non profit = everybody makes their wages regardless of the outcome.

Not very hard to see why one is growing and one is failing. The non profit has to have great leadership to prosper and it seems they don't have that. I want the IBO to survive and prosper because I am a bowhunter and I DO care about an organization that helps us as bowhunters.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Sean243 said:


> Ok, I apologize for going off on a tangent. Nestly and I will have to agree to disagree on the advanced shooter/yardage subject.
> 
> Now to something we agree on, the IBO does not seem to want to listen to their members. They are rapidly approaching a fork in the road though. Soon they'll have to die away from lack of attendance and dwindling sponsor support or start listening. It seems pretty clear that there can't be much in between at this point.
> 
> I do not want to see it just die though. I want them to make the right decisions and improve things (undoubtedly that will not be an overnight fix). I can't understand why anyone hates them so badly as to just want to see them fold up.


I disagree.........sort of!!! The fork in the road is not "rapidly approaching". They are well past the fork. Attendance by shooters has already fallen sharply in the IBO while just the opposite has happened in the ASA. Vendors and sponsors have already decreased support measurably. The things being discussed here were discussed here many years ago.............

I don't expect they will fold. At least not completely and sure hope they do not! At this point it's obvious "they" don't intend to make any significant changes any time soon. Right now the IBO is at a tipping point. They are right on the edge of becoming a _very _trivial player in the industry if they haven't already. Just look at the number of Pro's that that shot in the 3rd leg of the NAtional Triple Crown compared to the number that shot in the ASA Metropolis tournament! Look at most any comparable class and you'll see that the IBO well past any kind of fork........they are on a ledge!


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Right, they've had many "forks", and they have a habit of always going the wrong way. If I dare speak for Sean, I think his use of "fork in the road" is similar you your "tipping point" analogy, so I don't think there's any disagreement that the state of affairs in IBO is more critical now than ever before, possibly to the point where putting on the tournaments is no longer viable for anyone (ie IBO/sponsors/municipalities/shooters.)

I would like to see IBO get out of the tournament business entirely, I feel they're just holding 3D back at this point, and they are turning off far more people than they're turning on. Let it die while there are still a few committed 3D'ers left in the north to get something better going.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

nestly said:


> Right, they've had many "forks", and they have a habit of always going the wrong way. If I dare speak for Sean, I think his use of "fork in the road" is similar you your "tipping point" analogy, so I don't think there's any disagreement that the state of affairs in IBO is more critical now than ever before, possibly to the point where putting on the tournaments is no longer viable for anyone (ie IBO/sponsors/municipalities/shooters.)
> 
> I would like to see IBO get out of the tournament business entirely, I feel they're just holding 3D back at this point, and they are turning off far more people than they're turning on. Let it die while there are still a few committed 3D'ers left in the north to get something better going.


In the north they are DEFINITELY holding 3D tournament archery back! BUT I can't imagine the people in leadership positions just walking away from the power, benefits and the sense of entitlement they have. The IBO wouldn't be many years behind and fading if they had the ability to lead, follow or get out of the way. The only way I think most will get out of the way is if the IBO is "bought" and the new controllers shoved them aside. It's like a vacant heavily over priced real property that has serious defects. It has to deteriorate to the point where it's owners just want to unload it. THEN someone will step in and be able to renovate and rejuvenate it. I don't know when the IBO leadership will be ready to "unload it". 

I'd like to see people within the archery industry (Lancaster Archery Supply, Tru Ball, Stan...)get a group together and build a 3D organization that would be viable for the northeast. It could start with the IBO or it can be built from scratch. It would NOT have to be an ASA knock off! It could or should be a combination "pieces". Could the OPA be the catalyst?


----------



## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> In the north they are DEFINITELY holding 3D tournament archery back! BUT I can't imagine the people in leadership positions just walking away from the power, benefits and the sense of entitlement they have. The IBO wouldn't be many years behind and fading if they had the ability to lead, follow or get out of the way. The only way I think most will get out of the way is if the IBO is "bought" and the new controllers shoved them aside. It's like a vacant heavily over priced real property that has serious defects. It has to deteriorate to the point where it's owners just want to unload it. THEN someone will step in and be able to renovate and rejuvenate it. I don't know when the IBO leadership will be ready to "unload it".
> 
> I'd like to see people within the archery industry (Lancaster Archery Supply, Tru Ball, Stan...)get a group together and build a 3D organization that would be viable for the northeast. It could start with the IBO or it can be built from scratch. It would NOT have to be an ASA knock off! It could or should be a combination "pieces". Could the OPA be the catalyst?


All good points I would say the best way to make them sell would be to stop paying dues something would have to give real quick!


----------



## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

I understand the president term is up and the B.O.D. has to replace him or reappoint him for 2 more yrs


----------



## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Problems have existed for a lot more than 2 years, so it's not just the president, the BOD must also be held responsible for the current state of affairs. It's never too late... the question now is whether they recognize the depth of the problem, and whether they have the ability to identify the problems (including looking at themselves objectively)


----------

