# High end limbs---Are they that much better than say TT carbon wood limbs?



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

I am on the fence about getting some high end limbs, say WW Inno's, Winex, samick masters, or TT BF carbon's.
What would I expect to gain?
Would I really be able to see a differance?
Oh I forgot Border Limbs.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I am toying with the same idea . I have a TT Titan I with the clear wood/glass limbs. Got a gobbler with it this spring and am going to see how I do deer season before I decide. After chatting with GEREP, JPARNE, and SAWTOOTHSCREAM on here, They about have me convinced to take the plunge and get the BF's. My wife says if I get the Black Max carbon/woods, I'll eventually want the BF's anyway, so why not just get them. Also she is giving me my birthday money to put toward them! I'm still thinking on it and researching. Let me know what you decide.


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> I am toying with the same idea . I have a TT Titan I with the clear wood/glass limbs. Got a gobbler with it this spring and am going to see how I do deer season before I decide. After chatting with GEREP, JPARNE, and SAWTOOTHSCREAM on here, They about have me convinced to take the plunge and get the BF's. My wife says if I get the Black Max carbon/woods, I'll eventually want the BF's anyway, so why not just get them. Also she is giving me my birthday money to put toward them! I'm still thinking on it and researching. Let me know what you decide.


I also have a Titan gen I with the black max carbon wood limbs, they shoot great.
But I am wanting to try some high end limbs, dunno why.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I probably shouldn't say anything here as other than the Sebastian Flute Gold Standard Foam Core limbs on my excel?..(and i believe they are like low mid-range)..i haven't owned any high-enders..but there's a reason..that reason being?..

The word i got from some top level folks in the biz is that while we all "want the best"?..dang few of us can shoot good enough to tell a difference and speed gains are negligable..i've had folks tell me..

"Ya want more speed?..do some strength training and shoot higher poundage..cause that'll getcha way more of it far faster than trying to buy it."

I've also been told..

"All things being equal?..you'd be lucky to see a 5% speed increase between the lowest end wood/glass and the highest end carbon/foam limbs."

and that...

"Carbon fiber is a great "aid laminate" when it comes to maintaining torsional limb stability on longer amo bows but it's not the equivilent of nitrous oxide for your bow"

and that's the sorta lingo from folks i have the utmost respect for that's kept me from jumping up to high-enders but that said?..there is (1) set of newly released, extremely high-end limbs i'm watching very closely...mainly because they do seem to be unique in design in that they aren't just a couple layers of CF over wood/foam cores..as they are "almost" (90%) solid carbon fiber...very light...very strong...and "noticably" faster..those being the $750 a set uuhka Ux100 carbon fiber recurve limbs...and i want'em...badly..but i also wanna wait until others discover if they are gonna do stupid suff like "splinter" or propogate "cracking"..but so far?..reports are extremely positive..so this thread will now be on my official "watch list". 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It really depends on the archer. Some limbs are also worse then others regardless of the price (hoyt).

People with longer DL have the most to gain from good limbs but are also the least in need of gaining anything.

-Grant


----------



## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

If you really want them and there is room in the budget? Go for it!... Or not.

Ive owned several low and mid-range limbs. I recently got what I would call 'high end limbs' and I really couldn't be happier (although I could have done without the two months of waiting, but that was worth it)

Here's a little tease for you 







Border hex VI-w bamboo core BB2
45# @ 29" on 19" riser

Only had them a week so I'm still in the puppy love stage. Will chrono soon.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

guyver said:


> Here's a little tease for you
> View attachment 1483349
> 
> Border hex VI-w bamboo core BB2
> ...


Now you did it! Gotta get some towels to clean up the drool all over my keyboard...LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I did shoot those bamboo/carbon Borders of guyvers, and having owned and owning several mid and high end carbon/wood and carbon/foam limbs, those Borders are the only limbs, pound for pound, that make you take immediate notice. Just on a trial run, the back end is totally different and arrow speed is noticeably faster in flight. On the difference in my wood core v. foam core, the difference is only subtle in feel and you would need a chrony or can tell in slightly weaker tune for same arrow. Maybe when guy's past puppy love and in divorce, he will need to unload them on the cheap


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

A while back the different speed ratings of the Tradtech limbs - the Black Max, the Black Max Carbon, and the Extremes were posted - I think there was something like 8 fps difference between the Black Max and the Extremes. 

I have the Extremes - I have never shot the Black Max - but believe that it is probably true that most of us would not notice much of a difference - but I can't say for sure - I just knew if I didn't buy the Extremes - i would always wonder - so I bought them - I am very happy with them - and knowing myself - if I has bought one of the other two - no matter how well they shot - I would always be wondering if the Extremes were better - so I eliminated that by just buying the Extremes.

One point that was made by Jinx is in error - the idea of wanting more speed to just go and work out and get a heavier bow - that is not accurate - if you keep the grains per pound of draw the same - you will not gain any speed by going to a heavier bow.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

Sharp, What you said about always wondering if the BF's are better is the same thing I'm thinking. Say you buy the carbon/woods and decide later you want the BF's. You sell the c/w's (at a loss btw) so you can get the BF's. It would be cheaper just to bite the boolit and get the BF's. Decisions , decisions!!! Oh the AGONY!!!


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just buy the BF's and be done with it - that is what I did and I am not sorry - and I am by no means a wealthy guy - but I knew in the long run - i would save money if I just got what I wanted to begin with.


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

Bowhuntrmaniac-----I have both the glass wood #35 medium, and the carbon wood #45 longs.
I think the carbon woods are a hair smoother, but its hard to tell with them being more #'s plus 2" longer.
If I was to buy the BF Extremes I would get the longs.
At 62" It just seems perfect for me.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have tested limbs from high to low, and for my small sample size, found the low end limbs to be slower and stack more. I would have to test a lot more to establish any kind of statistical relationship. There are differences between high and low end, as well as differences between limbs in the same category: high and low. Even though I have Border HEX6 limbs, I will still shoot old Hoyt wood/glass limbs when they are more suited for the job at hand. There is a right limbs for each job, and it is not necessarily the fastest.

Here are some chrono data that I took a few years ago.

Best Moon Arco Nudo with two installed barebow weight kits and a Spigarelli 190g barebow weight in the lower stabilizer hole. 1/2 inch over standard 16 strand 452x string with one brass nocking point. 8 inch brace height.

Limbs were:

36 lb long Border HEX5W
36 lb long Border CXB
36 lb long KAP Winstorm Glass

Arrows were full length Easton ACE. I do not have a grain scale. Using specs the arrows were 353.3 gr plus the weight of a small G-nock and three 2 1/2 inch Flex Fletch plastic vanes. The arrows are 33 5/8 inches from the nock groove to the tip.

I used a Prochrono chronograph with the LED light kit to measure arrow speed and an Easton bow scale and Easton draw length arrow to measure draw weight. Draw weight was measured at 31 inches. I shot barebow so no draw length check was used.

Velocity is the average of five shots, draw weight is the average of three.

Border HEX5W

200 +/- 1 fps
44.1 +/- 0.2 pounds at 31 inches

Border CXB

190 +/- 1 fps
42.2 +/- 0.3 pounds

KAP Winstorm Glass

183 +/- 2 fps
41.7 +/- 0.0 pounds

Here is a chart that compares the DFC's for these limbs. Compare the PSE Carbon with the HEX5. They track together until the PSE limbs start to stack at longer draw length. The low end Winstorm limbs start with the other limbs and then start to lose draw force, which reduces stored energy. This explains the lower speed. The gap between the Border CXB and Winstorm is what contributes to greater stored energy in the CXB. The PSE ProElite curve came from measurements I did on a friends limbs while at the range. They were not measured in the same manner as the other limbs.

And by the way, my 35 pound HEX6 clock 208 fps at my 32 inch draw length.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I just noticed that the arrow weight above was not correct. I got an arrow scale shortly after I posted that data a couple of years ago, and the arrows weighed 344 gr.


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks Hank, thats the kind of imput I was looking for.
I know about 5 yrs ago I bought a bob lee hunter, and they claimed only 2# per inch over 28" so I am thinking the high end limbs must be low stack also.
That would make for a more forgiving set up.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

tichound said:


> Thanks Hank, thats the kind of imput I was looking for.
> I know about 5 yrs ago I bought a bob lee hunter, and they claimed only 2# per inch over 28" so I am thinking the high end limbs must be low stack also.
> That would make for a more forgiving set up.


Here is some data that shows stack better. The Border HEX limbs are particularly good in this regard due to the large recurve which takes more draw to uncurl. If you are really looking for low stack I would consider the HEX5 or HEX6 limbs.

In the graphs below I am showing pound per inch of draw. You can see that the valley in the curve moves from about 23 inches out to 28 1/2 inches for HEX limbs, resulting in a pull much less than 2 pounds per inch at the end of draw. Neither reach 2 pounds per inch, even at 32 inches of draw.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank...lemme toss this atcha just to see what bounces off a knowledgable kinda guy...

I love my 64" bushmen longbow...it has what feels like some silky sweet action-boo limbs and for a 64"/43# bow it's whips'em out there real well..that said?..in the past few months?..i just went through 3 sets of limbs on the Bob Lee TD recurve..

The original "Hunter" 54#/62" limbs

Then a set of "Signature" 64"/46# limbs

And now the current 62"/42# limbs

the old original 54# hunter limbs were stout if not stacky...and the 64"/46# limbs were very light feeling but felt sorta lost with'em...hard to explain...but here i've got the current 62"/42# limbs and they feel just about as stout as the 46# limbs did but i dare say at least equal if not slightly outperfom the 64"/46# limbs..which is where i learned what a huge percieved dif just 2"s of amo length can make...so even when you get into these high-end limbs..could not the guy who orders "stacky shorts" wind up just as disappointed as the guy who orders "lost longs"?..i mean...just because they're a certain model/build doesn't mean that you're gauranteed limb euphoria...does it?..also...i'm of the opinion that tuning is key...and from what i hearing from some rather noteable folks?..i'm gathering that i would bet dollars to doughnuts that one with a blindfold would be hard pressed to detect a set of properly selected, spot-on tuned $120 TT blackmaxs against the same in highenders...am i wrong in this (based on word on the street) assumption?


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx,

There are a lot of variables. I originally constructed the smoothness curve to be able to quantify the difference between different recurve geometries. The HEX and conventional geometries behave quantifiably different (without saying which is better). Within each geometry there is also a lot of variablity. Also, some folks like limbs that finish light; some like limbs that start to stack near full draw, since stacking can serve as a draw check. Snappy or smooth is a personal preferrence. Short versus long limbs, short versus long draws, all come into play. The best thing to do is to pull them before you buy. Short of that, you get as much objective and subjective information as you can and take the plunge, and hope you get what you are looking for. This stuff is expensive so it can make you a bit nervous (and I am not even talking about customer wood bows). I remember the first dozen ACE arrows I bought at about $36 an arrow. I was sure happy when I was able to get them to tune.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

First time you will back Borders you would know it immediately, even in a double blind test. Nothing else like them in the production world.

-Grant


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

grantmac said:


> First time you will back Borders you would know it immediately, even in a double blind test. Nothing else like them in the production world.
> 
> -Grant


And the smoothness curve shows why this is the case. Every conventional limb I have tested follows the same profile. The valley may move a bit, or be deeper, but the basic behavior is repeatable. The same can be said of the HEX limb profile, except that the HEX6 really takes it to another level. I engage different muscles shooting each limb geometry. I found that my HEX fitness does not fully translate to a conventional limb geometry, and vice versa. If I only practice with the HEX limbs, I feel overbowed with conventional limbs, even if they are lower draw weight than the HEX6. The HEX limbs draw more energy in the beginning of the draw cycle, where you have more leverage, then are smoother at the end.


----------



## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

grantmac said:


> First time you will back Borders you would know it immediately, even in a double blind test. Nothing else like them in the production world.
> 
> -Grant


I'll second that, even with my short experience with them. The first time you draw the limbs you can tell their is something radically different going on. I really wanted something different and I got just that. And I've always been drawn to more curves (in bows and other areas) so I figured why not

Sid at border helped me decide what I wanted, specifically with limb length and material. They also have a nifty draw length v limb length v riser length chart on their site. I'm sure most bowyers would do the same.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Are the Border limbs winning the Gold? - serious question - I don't know who shoots what in that Oly world - other than the Koreans shooting Samick for the most part.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Are the Border limbs winning the Gold? - serious question - I don't know who shoots what in that Oly world - other than the Koreans shooting Samick for the most part.


Alan Eagleton won the team gold and individual silver at the recent FITA Field world championships shooting HEX6 limbs. And this is an American against the best barebow shooters in the world. There were quite a few shooting Border limbs there. I am not sure any shot them in the Olympics. Border does not sponsor archers.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Are the Border limbs winning the Gold? - serious question - I don't know who shoots what in that Oly world - other than the Koreans shooting Samick for the most part.


What the Olympians are shooting has 100% to do with contingency money and nothing else.

But those archers who buy their own gear are doing very well with Border, like Alan.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Are the Border limbs winning the Gold? - serious question - I don't know who shoots what in that Oly world - other than the Koreans shooting Samick for the most part.


This is the trad section.

and here is just one of the emails we get. came in on the 24th of this month and doesnt include last year Nathen Setting a Norwegan indoor fita18 National record with hex5s and a Bull riser, barebow.

Hi Ann & Sid!
Here is some pics and a good report from the Norwegian national championship in 3D and Field archery past weekend (3D Saturday & Field on Sunday)

From Surnadal we where 3 archers competing in the barebow class, and two out of three is using Border Hex 5 limbs([email protected] Ronny, and [email protected] Steinar) with DAS elite risers, the last member on the team Erik is using a Hoyt.

We did a good job and won following medals:
Saturday:
3D Gold individual Ronny using DAS elite with Border limbs
We also won the team gold medal 3D.

Sunday:
Field:
Silver medal individual Steinar using DAS elite with Border Limbs
Bronze medal individual Ronny using DAS elite with Border limbs
We also won the team gold medal field.

A lot of the competitors remarked the fastness and stability in the Border bows when they did see our shooting and was allowed to try them out afterwards.

So in the 2012 national championships the borderlimbs helped us provide:
1 gold individual,
1 silver individual
1 bonze individual
Team gold 3D
Team gold Field archery


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> This is the trad section.


Not much in Oly shooting but WA Field/3D and IFAA Field/3D and in particular Flight Archery Border has done very well over the years, in the Trad world Border is rated as one of the best in the business for quality, performance and customer service.


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Itbeso did well in the World field Championships with his Hex 6's too.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> "All things being equal?..you'd be lucky to see a 5% speed increase between the lowest end wood/glass and the highest end carbon/foam limbs."
> 
> 
> 
> :





sharpbroadhead said:


> A while back the different speed ratings of the Tradtech limbs - the Black Max, the Black Max Carbon, and the Extremes were posted - I think there was something like 8 fps difference between the Black Max and the Extremes.
> 
> .


it all depends on how you want to twist the stats.
for example 8fps in 200 = 4%.
8fps = 4lbs in bow weight at 2fps/lbs
4lbs in 40lbs = 10%

so fromt he same numbers you can have 4% or 10% wither your pint is half empty or half full.

if you take the a review dont the other day on here, that 15" riser vs 17" both 60" bows there was 4fps in that test BF extremes vs another brand. in favour of the other brand.
so that makes 12fps different. so the %'s change again.

What is odd about the whole game is, that if your looking for economy, then 150 dollar limbs shooting at 175fps = 0.86 dollar per fps. and 600 dollar limbs shoot 200fps = 3 dollars per fps...
a budget car can do all the things a Merc E class can do. so with that logic i couldnt justify the E.class. but i sure do want the e class over the budget one.
out of all the hours that are truely yours. that are not there to support your life (shopping, Sleeping, commuting, working, eating) how many hours are truely yours. id think 3-4 hours a week? 
are these few hours the ones you want to buy cheap on?
I used to drive about in a $400 car and ride around on a $4000 mountain bike. I enjoyed this way round. so i suppose its down to priorities. this was my choice and i dont regret it. the $400 car got recycled. and my bike i still ride.

you just have to make your mind up which way you want to go. its a lifestyle choice.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> it all depends on how you want to twist the stats.
> for example 8fps in 200 = 4%.
> 8fps = 4lbs in bow weight at 2fps/lbs
> 4lbs in 40lbs = 10%
> ...


Really good post


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

For me it is pretty simple I shoot for pleasure it is my one release and or vise - I don't go to the bars I don't ride snowmobiles or spendy bikes - I shoot bows - as a guy with a very long draw I can't tell you what an eye opener it was the first time I drew a set of Borders back.

If you figure cost verses hours of pleasure the are a screaming deal - the fact that they are fast and stable is just an added Bennie. 

Matt


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

tic - 

You really didn't give enough information to get a valid answer - for you.

Despite all the commercials and recommendations, the fact is that most ILF limbs these days are pretty darn good. Going from manufacturer to manufacturer or price range to price range, you will find a slight difference in feel, both on the draw and on shock. Your draw length may factor into that "feel". Proper tuning will definitely factor in. 

The distances you normally shoot (and the level of accuracy you expect) factor into how much the difference in speed (if any) will make. Frankly, for shooters living in the 20 yds and under range, speed just isn't a factor. 30, 40 yds and beyond, it will give some cushion in range estimation. (For example at 30 yds, a 190 fps bow will not realize a 2 yd mistake in group size, while the spread might be a little more exaggerated with a 170 fps bow.) 

On indoor spots, I've used entry level and high $$ limbs and the scores stayed within statistical error. Be careful when someone says that they changed limbs and saw a quantifiable difference in accuracy. To verify that, the effect has to be A. long term, and then B. an equal drop in accuracy should be realized when going back to the "old" limbs.

Finally, don't rule out the "new toy" syndrome. Getting new, shinny, high $$$ limbs has to make you shoot better, right? 
It's real, but may not last. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I have a little differerent take - I draw 28" or a bit longer so stacking of even cheaper limbs does not seem to be a big deal. But the thing I really like about the cheaper limbs (TT Black Maxes) is that I can use them - 3D them, stump shoot with them, target shoot them, put camo tape on them and crawl around in the brush chasing elk and deer, let others try them out and not really worry about it. I shoot for me, and there really is not much to compete in around here so a point or two, or fps or two, really does not matter much. Not to mention that at my level I doubt I'd be capable of telling much difference anyway. The other thing that makes it hard to spend big money on limbs is that I have no way of trying them out prior to buying them - that can turn into an expensive gamble pretty quickly. So I have several sets of $100 limbs in different weights for a variety of needs. I do understand others have different situations and can fully exploit better, more expensive limbs - and maybe some day I'll get a chance to try them and see or feel the difference and change my mind. Till then I'm happy with my 'cheap' limbs. Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

As an amateur bowyer, I can tell you that I dont see the big deal either, same glue and often same components in the core and backing. I understand that foam will not swell and contract and provides a very uniform medium for a limb core. BUT, a very good set of acionboo or even hard maple limbs with more than 2 laminations in the core will be very smooth and fast if the preload and stacking points are configured well in design. If you'll notice, most of the limb configurations out there are very similar with regard to shape of the curve and working limb area. 

Carbon on a recurve will not give you near the gains in performance that it will on a RD longbow vs. an all glass set due to limb geometry and stability issues when looking at core thickness decrease in a carbon set as well as weight of material... glass = heavier than carbon = heavier than some core woods. Not only that, but not all carbon is created equal and there is a lot of crap out there about carbon, and you really dont know what you are getting from a bowyer in that regard. They could slap some Binghams carbon on there and call it a day and sell the heck out of it, or you could be getting some real space age bias carbon that will really increase stability... you just simply dont really know. I have a homemade bellymount recurve that pulls 60# that outperforms my Dalaa with Carbon limbs of the same weight. Shoots noticeably faster and the same arrows penetrate deeper in my target on impact and my limbs cost me a grand total of $60 a set and I dont even grind my own lams. Someone grinding them themselves it cost about $35 a set, as they are paying for glass and nothing else... if they order glass in bulk, even less. Like I said... I dont really see the point in paying $300 more for a set of limbs to get an extra 5 maybe 8fps at most out of a bow.

Just me and my humble opinion... take it for what it's worth,

Dave


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> For me it is pretty simple I shoot for pleasure it is my one release and or vise - I don't go to the bars I don't ride snowmobiles or spendy bikes - I shoot bows - as a guy with a very long draw I can't tell you what an eye opener it was the first time I drew a set of Borders back.
> 
> If you figure cost verses hours of pleasure the are a screaming deal - the fact that they are fast and stable is just an added Bennie.
> 
> Matt


Matt said it well. We are both long draw archers and I like to enjoy the feel of my bow. The HEX6 are fun to shoot. Also, I shoot FITA so I need to get a good sight point at 90 meters. I also get that with the HEX6 without pulling my arm out of its socket. I am still working on 30 meters. They are a little fast for 30 the way I am shooting using a bow that is setup for 90 and 70 meters. I will work that out in the off season. I may return to stringwalking 30. That will not be a problem if your bow and form are setup for shorter shots.


----------



## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

So, to summarize... Will a $600-700 set of limbs determine whether or not you shoot a good competitive round or kill your intended quarry? Probably not... Will they add a few points to your scorecard? Maybe... Will they extend the distance at which you can shoot game? Very little... Will they make you feel proud to have them on your riser? Very likely... Will they produce increased arrow speed? Lord, let's hope so! Will they make your wallet lighter? Definitely!  :darkbeer:


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

uabdave said:


> As an amateur bowyer, I can tell you that I dont see the big deal either, same glue and often same components in the core and backing. I understand that foam will not swell and contract and provides a very uniform medium for a limb core. BUT, a very good set of acionboo or even hard maple limbs with more than 2 laminations in the core will be very smooth and fast if the preload and stacking points are configured well in design. If you'll notice, most of the limb configurations out there are very similar with regard to shape of the curve and working limb area.
> 
> Carbon on a recurve will not give you near the gains in performance that it will on a RD longbow vs. an all glass set due to limb geometry and stability issues when looking at core thickness decrease in a carbon set as well as weight of material... glass = heavier than carbon = heavier than some core woods. Not only that, but not all carbon is created equal and there is a lot of crap out there about carbon, and you really dont know what you are getting from a bowyer in that regard. They could slap some Binghams carbon on there and call it a day and sell the heck out of it, or you could be getting some real space age bias carbon that will really increase stability... you just simply dont really know. I have a homemade bellymount recurve that pulls 60# that outperforms my Dalaa with Carbon limbs of the same weight. Shoots noticeably faster and the same arrows penetrate deeper in my target on impact and my limbs cost me a grand total of $60 a set and I dont even grind my own lams. Someone grinding them themselves it cost about $35 a set, as they are paying for glass and nothing else... if they order glass in bulk, even less. Like I said... I dont really see the point in paying $300 more for a set of limbs to get an extra 5 maybe 8fps at most out of a bow.
> 
> ...


we lay up our own laminates. there are 3 different types of carbon in our limbs chosen by us. its all mixed with our choice of resin and then we cure it in the layup we desire. the 3 different types are delivered to us in 5 different weights of cloth. and all come with avaiation approved certificates. along with us fillowing strict handling procedures. there is not a single glass fiber in our limbs. and this is where the cost is. there are some top end limbs that are mainly glass and of old profiles. so i dont think you can justify R&D costs. and not only that. we only make 1000 bows a year. i can understand your cynical attitude to top end limbs. cince your paying top buck for R&D and not seeing much improovement.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Hunter Dave said:


> So, to summarize... Will a $600-700 set of limbs determine whether or not you shoot a good competitive round or kill your intended quarry? Probably not... Will they add a few points to your scorecard? Maybe... Will they extend the distance at which you can shoot game? Very little... Will they make you feel proud to have them on your riser? Very likely... Will they produce increased arrow speed? Lord, let's hope so! Will they make your wallet lighter? Definitely!  :darkbeer:


will you smile when you pull the bow back with a appeciation where the 600 dollars went. depends where you buy your limbs from.


----------



## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

I smile knowing my 100 dollar limbs put the arrow in the same spot and at about the same speed as a 600 dollar limb. keeps me grinning ear to ear and the freezer full as well as my wallet


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Border, that type of process does take a lot of R/D and I dont begrudge anyone making money off a bow or limbs for that amount of work. Trust me, I appreciate the effort and expense on your part. I am talking strictly performance vs. cost and justification for the consumer. If someone wants to pay premium $$ for a set of limbs they will no doubt get fantastic product with a lot of thought in them by bowyers such as yourself and your company... on the flip side, there are a lot of very good if not great limbs out there that use more basic materials that still pull smooth, offer little if any shock, are quiet, and pretty dang fast... but are a fraction of the cost. 

It's kinda like electronics, new stuff costs bundles when it is new conceptually... however, when the design gets old it gets cheaper. Perhaps some of the cheaper limbs use a design that has been around for a long time = reproduced by lots of folks = cheaper. Nothing wrong with that as often the designs are tried and true, which often has its appeal to many. Some, however want the hotrods or the newest, and that's ok too... nothing wrong with them paying for it either.

Dave


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

dave, dave and center -

Like the way you guys think. 
I agree there's nothing wrong with spending the extra cash for the "hot rod" or latest and greatest, if that's what someone is into, just don't be too surprised if the old guy with the beat up daily driver has a few tricks up his sleeve. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

and dont begrudge the guy that does invest in the latest and greatest. its his dollars that helps fuel more development. its that kind of money that fred bear and howard hill used to fuel laminate R&D that is now part of your beater bows. without the bugattis in the early days engine technology wouldnt have been there for the likes of henry ford... you might be able to smile. but without them it all slows down to a non-event.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I bought a cheap set of 35# Kaya Tropics last year, compared to my 43# Pro Accent limbs and 48# Winex limbs, yes I can tell the difference in performance obviously slightly faster but limb stability and feel is better but the Kaya limbs shoot great. A 118 Euro set of Kaya limbs compared to a 450 Euro set of Winex limbs for indoors I think I would be able to shoot very similar scores even if all the limbs were same weight.

Where this small extra speed increase and better torsional stabilty really comes into play is on longer distances past 60y, on a Field range it could make the difference between a 5 and 4 score and I imagine maybe an even bigger difference for 70/90m target shooting.

I have always bought the limbs to fit my own budget and normally at a discounted/reduced sale price, the Pro Accent limbs were 40% reduced from Merlin in UK and they always have good quality limbs at a sale price.

I suggest you buy the best limb you can afford, in the ILF market, technology is moving so fast that a 2010 top of the range limbs is already at a hugely reduced price, you just have to look around and compare prices on the online shops, the performance difference between 2010 developed limb and 2012 limb will likely only be gained by the elite Oly shooters anyway.


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

uabdave said:


> Border, that type of process does take a lot of R/D and I dont begrudge anyone making money off a bow or limbs for that amount of work. Trust me, I appreciate the effort and expense on your part. I am talking strictly performance vs. cost and justification for the consumer. If someone wants to pay premium $$ for a set of limbs they will no doubt get fantastic product with a lot of thought in them by bowyers such as yourself and your company... on the flip side, there are a lot of very good if not great limbs out there that use more basic materials that still pull smooth, offer little if any shock, are quiet, and pretty dang fast... but are a fraction of the cost.
> 
> It's kinda like electronics, new stuff costs bundles when it is new conceptually... however, when the design gets old it gets cheaper. Perhaps some of the cheaper limbs use a design that has been around for a long time = reproduced by lots of folks = cheaper. Nothing wrong with that as often the designs are tried and true, which often has its appeal to many. Some, however want the hotrods or the newest, and that's ok too... nothing wrong with them paying for it either.
> 
> Dave


Dave, I think what Sid is saying is that when it pertains to limb profile, and basic construction, that the big name Manf. are giving folks the shaft in the area of cost...The side profile, limb width profile, and basic materials and construction methods in the high end limbs of today, were the result of R & D from 10 years ago, and as such, should have long been payed for...Border limbs are spendy, sure, but at least Border is trying to continuously improve on limb performance, and construction methods and materials...At least that's how I read it...For me personally, I feel that a mid-range limb is the most useful, there are a handful of limbs available today that use cross-weave carbon laminates, and foam limb cores, along with better grades of glass, that will shoot far better than most archers can shoot them...Basically, if the intended use of the limb, (along with the honest abilities of the archer themselves) doesn't require all the extra benefit of the top end limbs, then it is probably just wasted money on the top shelf limbs...For local Club type Trad 3-D shoots, practically any limb that will stay together can be shot well, and the same applies for hunting, IMHO...I just returned to Recurve shooting a couple months ago, and I've placed or won at every local Club 3-D shoot that I shot a 'Curve in so far...Not a stitch of carbon in my limbs...I did some trading for a set of Challenger Craft wood/glass limbs, very much an entry level limb, and I am actually impressed with how good these cheapo limbs shoot....makes me wonder how much better the Challenger Craft limbs with carbon shoot...L.O.L...I have a set of Hoyt Gold medalist wood/glass limbs that shoot very nice, and the least torsional stable limbs that I have now are the limbs off of my Hoyt Buffalo that I have mounted on my Formula RX riser...But they shoot pretty quick for a wood/glass limb, are VERY quiet, have no built in tiller,, and will suit me fine until I decide what limbs to "Upgrade" to....Maybe the folks at Border will build me a set of CXG's, with the Formula limb attachment configuration??.........or drop the coin for a set of Uukha's for my soon to arrive Radian from Viper???..Decisions decisions...........Take care.......Jim P.S......I only mentioned how I have been shooting at the local Club 3-D's as an example of making due with what's considered less than desirable equipment for good performance, not intended to tel folks that I'm a hotshot...This might be the first time I've written about how I shoot on here, might be the last....Trust me, I work pretty hard just to be an average shooter, and even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then......


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jim -

The riser is in the mail (as of 15 minutes ago).

People keep talking about new advances in limb profile, this material or that. The fact is, if anything that revolutionary ever came out, every top archery in the world would be using it in a year, if not a month, despite any politics. The fact is there may be new designs and every company has a set of graphs showing why their product is better, if not the best, but archers are setting records with almost every manufacturer's "best" and not so "best" all the time. 

IMHO, except for possible "feel", there just isn't enough of a difference between the "top" limbs from most manufacturers for the top shooters to exploit and not enough of a difference between most entry/intermediate level and high end limbs for most of the "regular" guys to worry about.

Sid - 

For the record, I don't begrudge anyone from buying the "best" or highest priced "stuff" than can afford, but I will be the first to have a good chuckle when a guy with >$1,500 worth of latest and greatest, get his clocked cleaned by a guy with a $300 used rig. 

BTW - What am I shooting these days? A 7 year old Aerotec riser with new WW InnoEXPrimes. Why the new $600 limbs, you ask? Two reasons, I personally like WW limbs and I didn't pay anywhere near $600 for them 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Viper.....When was the best Zenit designed???....About ten years ago, maybe?.....Didn't stop Frangilli from winning the gold with it, though, huh??.......


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Jim -
> 
> The riser is in the mail (as of 15 minutes ago).
> 
> ...


 we have alot of respect the w&w limbs. 
why do you smile at the guy with the 1500 dollar bow. hes having fun... so are you. his bow has less dents in it than yours. hes funding your next bow. thank the fella for supporting evolution as in 5 years you will get the benefit. no need to sneer at the guy... and even more probematic. we had a multi millionair US guy. internationally famous property tycoon buy a bow from us. we didnt have a pricelist like the Purdy matched pair of custom shotguns heprobably owns a couple of sets of. so smile like you got one up on him. he doesnt care im sure.


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I love to see all the new 4X4's drive past very year. I wish them all 'safe journey' and ask the owners to look after them. 

One of them is my next set of sensibly priced wheels.

A bit like the 2 sets of second hand custom limbs my wife and I own.

Best of all is when you can you buy, as a treat, custom made limbs and still have change over the price of the top end production stuff.

However, like the second hand car market, the second hand product must be good to allow the person who buys new to part-fund his next new purchase. 

We all benefit eventually from the high end stuff, it comes down to match mid-level, or if you wait long enough, low level stuff. Buy wisely and you get a good deal.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Harperman, that is exactly what I got out of Border's posts. For example, look at Dalaa limbs... no reason in the world they should be as high as they are. So I agree with you also with regard to old R/D that you currently pay premium price for. That's also why I really admire custom bowyers who have taken the time to come up with something new and not use the same old profiles on limbs. All I am saying is similar to Viper... 99% cant tell the difference in a set of cheap, old school material limbs vs. the fanciest target limbs on the market on any given handle. As far as that Dalaa I own, I smile like crazy every time I pull it back bc I got the whole bow for less than the riser alone new. 

Dave


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> we have alot of respect the w&w limbs.
> why do you smile at the guy with the 1500 dollar bow. hes having fun... so are you. his bow has less dents in it than yours. hes funding your next bow. thank the fella for supporting evolution as in 5 years you will get the benefit. no need to sneer at the guy... and even more probematic. we had a multi millionair US guy. internationally famous property tycoon buy a bow from us. we didnt have a pricelist like the Purdy matched pair of custom shotguns heprobably owns a couple of sets of. so smile like you got one up on him. he doesnt care im sure.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> and dont begrudge the guy that does invest in the latest and greatest. its his dollars that helps fuel more development. its that kind of money that fred bear and howard hill used to fuel laminate R&D that is now part of your beater bows. without the bugattis in the early days engine technology wouldnt have been there for the likes of henry ford... you might be able to smile. but without them it all slows down to a non-event.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

We all know an ugly stick from Walmart can catch a fish but some prefer to use a fine graphite rod that they can feel the fish breath.

You can take a cheap rifle to Africa and as long as it shoots straight and is in a reasonable caliber shooting a decent bullet kill things but some prefer a fine express rifle in a nostalgic caliber that has a exhibition grade stock painstaking crafted to fit the owner 

Look at custom knives. There are many good production knives that will perform adequately but still there is a market for vey high end knives 

Put a new Vette on the track and it will run with a Ferrari or a Porsche at a fraction of the cost. Should the guy that can afford the latter not buy them ?



Some prefer the finer things in life.......they can afford them and they buy them . Good for them


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

JParanee said:


> We all know an ugly stick from Walmart can catch a fish but some prefer to use a fine graphite rod that they can feel the fish breath.
> 
> You can take a cheap rifle to Africa and as long as it shoots straight and is in a reasonable caliber shooting a decent bullet kill things but some prefer a fine express rifle in a nostalgic caliber that has a exhibition grade stock painstaking crafted to fit the owner
> 
> ...


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jim

I agree with you but keep in mind Daryl are Rick were competing against guys shooting the same stuff if the were shooting today I promise you they would be shooting the newest and bestest. 

I got my first set of premium limbs (winnex) 3rd hand for a very reasonable price shot them well and thought they were the cats pajamas I got the borders I am shooting as a gift from a friend in exchange for warehouse space I wouldn't let him pay for. 

The exchange went something like this "if you could have any limb you want what would it be?" " well a set of borders but I would never pay that for a set of limbs - I'll never out shoot my winnex" "e-mail border you have a credit for any limb you want"

That's how I got them and I gotta say they are better (for me) than the winnex - am I a border fanboy no not really I am a fanboy of limbs that don't stack at 32 inches

Matt


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jim -

Correct! There's another aspect of what you said that's most people forget. There really hasn't been than much R&D is bow/limb design in 40 years. So when people start talking about new advances, I'd really like to see them. Arrow speed has increased mostly due to arrow weight and string weight/stretch, not limb design. It's great that there are companies doing R&D, and while I'm not saying that we're at the end of the road in (stick)bow design, when you start looking at the Physics of what we are dealing with, getting an extra fps or two becomes somewhat subjective. 

Aside: the real issue with be building a stick bow that can handle sub 5 gr/lb without failing prematurely, and still have a MoE to allow rapid acceleration and provide adequate torsional/axial stability. 

The fact is that if any one company or manufacturer DID come out with something that revolutionary, we'd start seeing everybody else come out with a similar design. We DID see that with the ILF couplings, and when DAS came out with a "hunting" version of an ILF riser, it wasn't long until a number of others appeared on the market. 

I have to agree that if someone wants to spend more for window dressing, that's his business and we've all done it, I certainly have. The "custom" bow (or knife) market is built on that premiss. Fancy woods, laminates and antler accents don't really make a bow shoot any better, but it can look cool. If that's what you're into, go for it. I just have a problem with all the ads and salesmen trying to convince the consumer that they are offering the latest and greatest, implying that anything else is yesterday's news or obsolete. 

At the risk of repeating myself, there are a lot of really good limbs on the market today. Anyone who thinks there's a clear "best" is, IMHO, mistaken. 

edit Matt - 

I have a number of students shooting in the 31 - 32" DL range. Even with somewhat entry level limbs, we haven't had a stacking issue that couldn't be addressed with limb bolt adjustments. Stacking is a real issue with Oly style clicker shooters, so if it happened I'd hear about it. The real problem we have is finding entry-level arrows that will match length and spine. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't see any problem here. Speaking for myself, whether one item is better than another, really doesn't matter much to people who can afford the "best". There will always be a segment of any group that can buy whatever they want, unfortunately, I'm not a member(not by a long shot!) of that group. Having said that, I'm glad there are. Someone with the money and inclination ought to be able to gratify themselves with what they wish. I don't begrudge them their success, I think it's great that people are able to reward themselves for their hard work. Although I would never be able to afford one of them, I love looking at the photos members post of their custom and fancy bows, limb, what have you, I think it's wonderful they're able to acquire them. 

I've spent most of the last fifty years working two jobs, other than day to day inexpensive items, I've never been able to buy a new car, house, or any other major purchase. Even most of my clothes are used. I've never owned the "best" of anything. But I'll tell you this, if I could have, I would. I don't envy those individuals that can, I think it's great, whether it's "worth" it, or "better than", doesn't matter to them, they do it cause they can. Good for them.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> am I a border fanboy no not really I am a fanboy of limbs that don't stack at 32 inches


OK...I'll admit it....I'm a Border Fanboy! :wink:

The day they agreed to make limbs for my Black Widow...I knew I stubbled upon bowyers of an exceptional caliber.

Ray :shade:


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> OK...I'll admit it....I'm a Border Fanboy! :wink:
> 
> The day they agreed to make limbs for my Black Widow...I knew I stubbled upon bowyers of an exceptional caliber.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Yeah something Border are very good at, a few years ago Robbie the previous owner of Border made me a set of limbs for my Groves Spitfire after orignal limbs broke.


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Matt........I agree with Ya on both points concerning Daryl and Rick...My point was that folks act like the gear that they used back then isn't still good enough to be useful today, I have a set of 1st gen. ILF Gold Medalist limbs, these actually still have the teardrop shaped tip overlays, like the Medalist limbs had...Anyway, these old limbs are solid performers, even compared to most wood/carbon limbs today...I want to add that I'm not referring to anyone in particular in my posts regarding the Marketing and what-not...Just a general statement that wood/glass is wood glass, and carbon/wood is carbon/wood...I am a Hoyt fanboy, I openly admit it...But Hoyt's current limb situation is sad...All the good stuff is crazy expensive, and the rest of their line up is the same stuff structurally that they have been making for 20 years...Just re-labeled...And at nearly twice the going rate for cost as the same construction limbs from the Asian imports limbs, on average.....Jim


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

OK guys, since we are talking about "high end" limbs, there are a couple of questions I have. 1) The "standard limb" is ususally hard maple with fiberglass,so what improvements do say bamboo and or carbon layers bring into the picture? 2) What is the advantage of foam vs wood core material in the performance of a limb? 3) What advantage do multi- layers of carbon (BF's) have over just one or two layers of carbon? I have a 27.25 inch draw with my 60" TT Titan and I mainly hunt and practice with 3-D. From what I gather, the high end limbs are mainly a benefit to long draw guys, (smoother) and i will not see much performance or gains from a high end limb vs a mid limb or am I missing something? Thanks


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I hope this thread hasn't "died" I would really like to know some answers to my questions posted above. Thanks.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> OK guys, since we are talking about "high end" limbs, there are a couple of questions I have. 1) The "standard limb" is ususally hard maple with fiberglass,so what improvements do say bamboo and or carbon layers bring into the picture? 2) What is the advantage of foam vs wood core material in the performance of a limb? 3) What advantage do multi- layers of carbon (BF's) have over just one or two layers of carbon? I have a 27.25 inch draw with my 60" TT Titan and I mainly hunt and practice with 3-D. From what I gather, the high end limbs are mainly a benefit to long draw guys, (smoother) and i will not see much performance or gains from a high end limb vs a mid limb or am I missing something? Thanks


ok. Lets have a look at two points. how does performance come about and what is the difference between concstructions.

bow speed is about BHP/ton... Stored energy/(Limb mass+String mass+Arrow mass)
a glass limb will come out at about 190 grams per limb while a full carbon limb will come out at 150 grams. same length for length.
this is done mainly by the reduction in mass of the laminate, so is in effect spread over the whole working limb.
You can test this with two grain scales. put the limb butt on one and the tip on another and see where the weight sits. the one with the lower tip mass will probably be faster if the energy is the same.
the DFC will show you energy.
A smooth design means more stored energy.
As the guys above have quoted there are few designs that are stack free. most are tollerable few these days are nasty.


now whats the difference between a glass limb and a carbon glass limb and a total carbon limb... well depends.

but here goes.
our discoveries were:
we used to make a similar limb construction as a Hoyt carbon plus and put the cross weave in at 90 deg to the limb and you get something like a 10% increase in torsional stability.
Put the cross weave in at 45deg to the limb and you get a 75% increase. this was our idea that opened pandoras box for us back in 1998.
this is over a standard glass limb.
you can then start replacing the glass at various % with UD carbon. UD as in Power carbon (where the bow power comes from) the glass is uni directional. (UD) so it does the same job as UD carbon.
you keep going until you reach a 100% carbon limb which is faster due to it being lighter.
The Full carbon limb is the harder to make. its alot more expensive to layup. 
So you as a buyer have to keep an eye on the fiber architecture to see what your getting then its not all equal.
for example you can get carbon like you can get paper. in grams per square meter. so a limb with 90gsm of cross weive is not going to be a torsionally stiff as one with 400gsm.

also a bow might have 4 layers of UD at 100gsm each. does that make it any more fancy than a single 400gsm layer?
there are 5 different carbon layers in one lamiate of our latest limbs, of which there can be made up of 9 plys.
different layers do different jobs. different plys can do the same job. 5 plys of UD = 1 layer. 4 plys of UD+ 1 cross weave = 2 layers.

now for the more complex bit the DFC.
long draw guys benefit from smooth bows. and you need to measure the working limb length to do this. but it will show you what we are getting at
Bow speed is related to limb length and draw length.
Long limbs store more energy
long limbs also weigh more.

so to get the best out of a short draw you need a short limb.
smoothness dictates energy storeage. 
Short limbs stack early and give poor energy for longer draws.
long limbs dont release their potential if short drawn.
if your not pulling a smooth limb to its potential then you have too short a draw.

so basically limbs are made to a draw length. its just mass production limb dont cater for superlong draws.
here is the basic rule.
24-29 = shorts
27-30 = meduims
29-34=longs
so shorts cover 5" of draw
meduims cover 3" of draw
and longs cover 5"

id say that there is a need for XS ad XL limbs so that these guys dont suffer.
i also say that you cant optimise a limb for 5" of draw and have quality at both ends of the draw.

this is where mass production cater for the mass produced person. mr Average.
the idea of all bows weight at 28" is also a joke.
for example the long limb isnt even intended for this draw length.

so a stacky limb pulls in at 2.3lbs per inch, and a smooth limb pulls in at 1.9lbs per inch.
from 28" where both bows are marked you get 4-5" of error. for example 1.9x4=7.6lbs gained. 2.3X4=9.2lbs gained. so for two bows of equal maked bow weight the smooth bow can come in at 1.6lbs lighter. make both bows the same weight at 32" and watch the smooth bow rocket.
this also happens at 25" of draw...

this can deliver 4% more energy there abouts just of the adjustmet of draw weights. and that excludes the fact that one design is smooth and the other is stacky in many respects


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks for a very informative reply Sid.

How many companies make 100% carbon limbs, I know Uukha does and claim a unique manufacturing process.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

For those that are interested, here is an actual comparison between the TradTech BF Extemes, Black Max Carbon/wood, and Black Max Glass/Wood limbs.

All figures are based on 9gpp, showing 28, 29 and 30 inch draw length. Testing done on a Spot-Hogg Hooter Shooter. 
________________________________________________________________ 

*BF Extremes: 
*
Draw Length / Actual Draw Weight / Grain arrow / FPS

28 / 49.8 / 450 / 194 
29 / 52.5 / 475 / 199 
30 / 54.7 / 494 / 204

*Black Max Carbonwoods: 
*
28 / 50.1 / 454 / 188.5 
29 / 52.6 / 475 / 193.7 
30 / 55.3 / 498 / 199.3

*Black Max Glass/Wood:
*
28 / 50.6 / 455 / 186 
29 / 53.0 / 477 / 192 
30 / 55.6 / 500 / 197 

Unfortunately, much of what we read regarding limb performance comparisons is rather subjective and in my opinion doesn't really mean much. Unless the testing is done using the *exact* same testing parameters it is rather useless and can actually be quite misleading. The measurable performance difference between a top end limb, a mid-level limb, and an entry level limb can and often is a matter of just a few percentage points or a few fps. Therefore, unless *ALL* parameters are identical, the results can be, and often are manipulated. Just a difference in strings, silencer weight, where you measure draw length, how you release, etc., can account for all the difference between a top performing limb and an average performer.


KPC


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Therefore, unless *ALL* parameters are identical, the results can be, and often are manipulated. Just a difference in strings, silencer weight, where you measure draw length, how you release, etc., can account for all the difference between a top performing limb and an average performer.
> 
> 
> KPC


does that include brace heights in your book?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

steve morley said:


> Thanks for a very informative reply Sid.
> 
> How many companies make 100% carbon limbs, I know Uukha does and claim a unique manufacturing process.


the original Inno was, i dont know about modern ones. the EX range...
The Samick Extreme BF limb is a half Glass but its Zentron S glass, which as far as im aware a brand name for S2 glass a high performance Glass.
our Talisman, TX series limbs had a S2 glass construction including the Black series of trad bows we made. Your Kat is shooting one of these i think. the Hex4 up to 2007 were also S2 Glass based then we went to a all carbon limb in early 2007.
most limbs have glass on the belly side.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> The Samick Extreme BF limb is a half Glass but its Zentron S glass, which as far as im aware a brand name for S2 glass a high performance Glass.


The *TradTech Carbon Extreme BF* has * NO* glass in the working part of the limb. None, zero, nada. The only fiberglass is the yellow glass in the limb butt and a tiny sliver in the yellow jacket limb tips.

KPC


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> The *TradTech Carbon Extreme BF* has * NO* glass in the working part of the limb. None, zero, nada. The only fiberglass is the yellow glass in the limb butt and a tiny sliver in the yellow jacket limb tips.
> 
> KPC


yeah, im impressed... not in the font size. but just in tradtech getting samick to make a more superior (market interpretation) limb than their main market platform. Samick put a part glass limb into the Olympics and Tradtech get a 5gpp limb thats full carbon. Nice call by TT.
That means that tradtech hasnt got an olympic gold either? Since its not the same limb?
The samick has a Glass component and the tradtech doesnt! simples!
that said, its S2 glass and not E glass.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

So if I understand correctly, carbon layers , especially if they are "cross directional" to one another, add stregnth to the limbs while at the same time being lighter than glass, produce a faster arrow? Did I get that part right? Also the carbon helps keep the limb from twisting side to side. Right?  (I am not a complete doofus, I just want to do my home work in getting a set of up-graded limbs). 
OK now how does say bamboo "up-grade" a limb ? Is it lighter, stronger so have the same effect as carbon? Thanks for the replies fellers!


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sid:

I'm not going to play this game with you. We've already been around this track a time or two...or six. 

These are the facts.

1. The TT BF Extreme have no glass in the working part of the limb.

2. In the 6 years they have been available, they have proven to be exceedingly durable, not to mention at the top of the heap as far as performance, and yes, warranted without any rediculous riser restrictions. 

3. The fact that a design composition eludes you, or they fact that you don't think it can or should be done, is of absolutely no concern to me. The only thing that bothers me in the least is that you continue to suggest that it's not being done, something we both know is false.

KPC


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

What I see in KPC's testing results above is just what I stated in my prior posts. Looks like none of those limbs stack and I'd challenge anyone on the planet to be able to see 5-7fps difference in speed with feel or their "eye". I seem to remember a pass around bow that never happened on another site once... seemed to me like it was supposed to be the cat's meow and teach all of us across the pond how great a bow could be made... seems that I also remember that never happening.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm staying out of this one.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think as limbs go - I feel like the benefactor of the trickle down theory. I shoot the Tradtech Black Max limbs - these are very nice shooting limbs with good speed and stability. I'd guess 10 years ago these would be near the top of the heap at any price range.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks centershot. I think when tichound started this thread, he was trying to gain knowledge about limbs, as I am . I hope I can speak for him in that we are trying to gather as much info to make a decision for ourselves about "high end" limbs. I am also hoping to find out info on limb materials ( how they may contribute to faster, better limbs, etc) I don't like to see guys I look up to on this forum arguing. So STOP IT!!! I have respect for every ones opinion and that is why I joined in this thread.....to learn , O.K.? Thanks


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> Thanks centershot. I think when tichound started this thread, he was trying to gain knowledge about limbs, as I am . I hope I can speak for him in that we are trying to gather as much info to make a decision for ourselves about "high end" limbs. I am also hoping to find out info on limb materials ( how they may contribute to faster, better limbs, etc) I don't like to see guys I look up to on this forum arguing. So STOP IT!!! I have respect for every ones opinion and that is why I joined in this thread.....to learn , O.K.? Thanks


Well said bowhuntrmanica, this is why I started this thread was to learn about limbs.
I am in the market for some high end limbs.
One thing I did learn so far is that with my draw lenght I should be shooting Short Limbs.
So it was worth it so far.
I have longs right now and thought I really liked them, but as Sid pointed out I am not getting the benefit of the working limb.
So I would have hated to spend my hard earned money on high end longs, when in fact I need shorts.
So I feel blessed so far, as I can only spend once. 
I hope that you have learned something also.
I think that Sid (border) has facts that are very interesting.
I don't think he needs to be so strong trying to express this, cause his products speak for there selfs.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Tichound what is your draw length 

I have a 27 1/2 inch draw and the only time I would want a short limb is if I where matting it to a 19 inch riser or longer 

I prefer 17 inch risers with a medium limb for a 60 inch bow


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

I would like to hear more about the short draw archers may benefit from a extra short limb.
I am wondering if anybody makes a extra short limb at this time.
Sure would like to test all this stuff before buying.


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

JParanee said:


> Tichound what is your draw length
> 
> I have a 27 1/2 inch draw and the only time I would want a short limb is if I where matting it to a 19 inch riser or longer
> 
> I prefer 17 inch risers with a medium limb for a 60 inch bow



I think my draw is around 26.
It is 24 to the berger hole


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe you would be better off with a short limb 

What length riser ?


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

17" Titan


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

Right now I am interested in the W&W Ex Prime, BF extremes, or maybe Winex.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

If its primarily a hunting setup I would be looking at the mediums or possible the shorts if I had a 26 inch draw

I prefer longer rather than shorter 

Good luck 

Let us know what ya pick


----------



## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

JParanee said:


> If its primarily a hunting setup I would be looking at the mediums or possible the shorts if I had a 26 inch draw
> 
> I prefer longer rather than shorter
> 
> ...


How are you liking your BF extremes?


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

When I went to Ilf I first did my riser research 

I couldn't decide between an all Phenolic from Bob or a Titan 

I ended up with both and I like them both very much 

When it came to limbs I was really torn between the BF Extremes and the Borders 

Both are great limbs but for me the BF's where the obvious choice. I drove up to Lancaster Archery tried different sets and really was impressed with John and his level of service 

I am a hunter and I wanted a very dependable limb that if I had issue could be replaced quickly 

Since then I've bought another set and I am quite pleased to say the least.

When my second set came in they did not scale where I wanted them to. No big deal the new ones crossed in the mail and a day latter I had another set. 

You can't beat that kind of service on a premium limb

I have many bows and pound for pound these limbs perform better than any limb in my stable 

I have shot the Borders Hex 5 and the 6's and they are great limbs but to be honest I liked the BFs better 

I think for a vey dependable high performance limb you would be hard pressed to find a better limb than the BFs


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

uabdave said:


> What I see in KPC's testing results above is just what I stated in my prior posts. Looks like none of those limbs stack and I'd challenge anyone on the planet to be able to see 5-7fps difference in speed with feel or their "eye". I seem to remember a pass around bow that never happened on another site once... seemed to me like it was supposed to be the cat's meow and teach all of us across the pond how great a bow could be made... seems that I also remember that never happening.


our sales in the US have multiplied over 6 fold without that travel bow happeneing. (since that post).
so from our view its not a problem.
We made the two bows and still have the right handed one as a demo, but the other riser sold last week to a drop in Visitor.
If my memory serves me rightly 9 out of the 30+ people on that list were bowyers. thats the bit that made me sit on the travelbow... 
Not sending it hasnt held us back thats for sure.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> , something we both know is false.
> 
> KPC


thanks for making an assumption on my behalf.

not to worry, your entitled to your opinion as i am mine.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

tichound said:


> .
> I think that Sid (border) has facts that are very interesting.
> I don't think he needs to be so strong trying to express this, cause his products speak for there selfs.


Ive tried to post informative facts. as have some others. Good luck in your quest in finding a limb that suits you. I think there is very little in performance between the W&W limbs and the Samick limbs. Same levels of tech, same levels of recurve design, (widths, profiles, laminates) so you would be happy with any of them.
As Steve Morley has pointed out many times with his pro accents, there are some super deals out there on these kinds of limbs, and brand loyalty might mean you miss out on a bargin.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> not to worry, your entitled to your opinion as i am mine.


Indeed Sid, we are all entitled to our own *opinions*. What we are not entitled to is our own *facts. *

Based on the fact that we've had this discussion at least a half dozen times in the past, and you continue to imply the same incorrect things over and over again, even when the person that helped design the Extreme BF limb for TradTech said otherwise, it leads one to believe that you are doing it intentionally.

*"In my opinion," *that speaks volumes.

KPC


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

tichound said:


> I think that Sid (border) has facts that are very interesting.
> I don't think he needs to be so strong trying to express this, cause his products speak for there selfs.


"Interesting" is a good way to describe it tichound.

Border does make a nice limb. I have a number of friends that shoot them and they seem to enjoy them. There are a number of great top end limbs out there. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. 

That's not the point. 

The point I was trying to make in my first post on this thread was very simple. Unless all testing parameters are consistent, the results don't mean much and can be, and often are manipulated. 

Customer chatter means little in the real world. It's always biased, and understandable. After all, they just dropped a bunch of money on something they want to be the best. Statements like "its the fastest limb I've ever shot" or "it shoots as fast as my other bow that is 8 pounds heavier" or, or, or, just don't mean anything. Especially when you dig a little deeper and you find out that the gpp isn't the same, the strings aren't the same, no chrono, no shooting machine, inconsistent draw lengths, etc... 

I just happen to believe that 600.00 + is a lot of money for someone to be dropping on a set of limbs. It's just nice to know the facts behind the claims being made.

KPC


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

Tichound, My draw is about 27.25". I have the Medium wood /glass limbs. From what I have learned, I could use shorts or mediums, but I am kind of in the middle range, and what i have learned from talking to guys here and John at Tradtech, the mediums will do better as far as less chance of getting into "stack" as I approach full draw. The ILF system is somewhat adjustable to keep from stacking til past your draw, but I might be cutting that adjustment close if i went with the short limbs. Right GEREP?


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

While I don't know who is right in this glass battle in the Extreme's - I do know this - GEREP is right that it is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact - either they have glass in the working part of the limb or they do not - and to claim this is a matter of opinion is ridiculous - and leads me to believe that GEREP is correct and Borderbows is using this "opinion" stuff to back out of previous statements.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> Tichound, My draw is about 27.25". I have the Medium wood /glass limbs. From what I have learned, I could use shorts or mediums, but I am kind of in the middle range, and what i have learned from talking to guys here and John at Tradtech, the mediums will do better as far as less chance of getting into "stack" as I approach full draw. The ILF system is somewhat adjustable to keep from stacking til past your draw, but I might be cutting that adjustment close if i went with the short limbs. Right GEREP?


bhm:

I would certainly go with what John told you. He deals with these things all day, every day and he knows his stuff. 

Having said that, my draw length is about a half inch longer than yours and I have both a set of medium BF's and a set of short BM Carbons. I have no issues whatsoever, but then again, I don't shoot either at the top end of the preload range.

I got the shorts for when I hunt from a popup blind, and the little bit of extra room helps.

KPC


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

yikes guys.
strong statements.
and thanks for the pm's from the non contributers.

BowhuntrManiac: for a short draw of 26" as per tichounds post above, our limbs would feel like they stack with meduims. wind them in and you will discover they get smoother i wouldnt advise this combo if you went for our limbs.

We have demonstrated in the past that we have less stack from 29-30 on a meduim limb on a 17" DAS riser than a meduim conventional limb on a 27" riser. even though on this test we were 3lbs heavier we pulled less lbs through that last inch at 60" in length than the 70" bow. This gives the bow an exceptional smoothness that some people dont enjoy, others love.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> While I don't know who is right in this glass battle in the Extreme's - I do know this - GEREP is right that it is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact - either they have glass in the working part of the limb or they do not - and to claim this is a matter of opinion is ridiculous - and leads me to believe that GEREP is correct and Borderbows is using this "opinion" stuff to back out of previous statements.


thats as valid a method of making a desicion as any as to how to back an opinion.
here is some of my reasons for allowing people room to live (with thier own opinion) rather than re-hashing the same deal everytime of statements: NO YOUR WRONG. thats a nice way to debate... leaves room for personalitys, egos and rational doesnt it?
Im well aware that OEM kit in mountain bikes are often not the same as the real deal bought off the peg.
for example the real aftermarket kit will come with a Titanuim spring, and the OEM comes with a stock steel spring. Buy a whole bike with brand XXX parts and its OEM, buy the Brand XXX part off the shelf as a unique product and you get the real spec.
A light weight fork will come with a alu steer tube and the OEM will come with a steel tube.
it allows the product to hit pricepoints or reliablity in mass produced package deals where "less knoledgeable user base" market areas are being approached etc. What ever reason is setup in the meeting over spec between buyer and maker. its private info.
I am also aware that for market diferentiation, some product differences are needed. Colours, dimensions of non critical parts. allows different price points to be made under different brands allows the market to be approached under different price brands.
Im also aware that an all carbon limb is harder to make then a glass limb, and S2 glass is no ordinary glass. so if asked, is there glass in your "limb" the reply is simply no. there is a need for market difereniation due to branding, so yes i agree S2 glass is not glass as bowyers term it. 
the immediate branding could be confusing. BF extremes? vs BF extremes.? ah but they are different... ok, why the same name? why the technically more dificult limb, with a percieved better layup in one and not there own.
ok. this might be wrong. but i'll never know, and other than KPC jumping up and down about it, and me asking him to jump a little more, it doesnt mean much of a difference to you or me. i supppose the bigger question is? is there a difference in the shooting of the Samick version over the tradtech version of the same limb. Afterall the Black max limbs have a different name to the rest of the samick lineup, so why share the BF name if its a different limb to the samick BF limb?

so the reason is "my opinion", is that i could be wrong. but i think my questions are valid. and i think the reply wasnt answering the zentron S part of the equation, as in my book thats a glass, but it might not be in others books. as its not bow glass. its not E glass.
so for one person the aswer is right. and for another the answer has the possability to skip the more detailed questions for any of the reasons above

Im not insulting KPC. im simply saying i dont have enough info for me to be satisifed. it also allows room for KPCs interpretation of the reply he posted back when we first had this debate
does Tradtech need to satify my questions. no. so that is why it remains my opinion. does it need a adimant reply from either side, not in my books, but KPC has a way with words that doesnt leave room for others. Its his way or the high way. We are all different people and all entitled to our ways.

either way. the (insert brand name here) BF extreme has a good reputation. but then again so does the Inno limbs, Sky limbs, Morrison limb, Dryad limbs, and dare i say our limbs.

if your quick to judge, you might miss vital information but thats the risk you run


in that statement there is room for others to have opinion. and no one else is a fool, or wrong, or living in fantasy for having another view. Its just my view.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

No Sid, I think what you were really afraid of is that one of the garage ninny bowyers would put your bow on a hooter shooter right next to one of theirs and suddenly yours wouldnt look like the standout and much of your R & D would be questioned as being justified as well as your costs. I find it strange that now you admit it was because a lot of bowyers frequent that site that you didnt want to send the bow out. From what I can gather there are two Sid's on that site, one joined in 2008 and one in 2010. One post said one was dad and the other son... For anyone in the world, a 5 minute search on that site would have shown you what kind of folks you were dealing with in regard to being bowyers, so it is highly unlikely that you didnt know what you were getting in to with the pass around bow. It is also highly unlikely that one of those guys would try to copy your design, especially since your laminates are made 'in house' as you say and are your own mix. BTW, if you really thought that you were going to be "copied", then why didnt you just come out and say that on the other site...? All I read was you were so busy you never got to finish it. Blowing smoke up the rear-ends of the folks over there is what I gleaned off that entire exchange.

I know you'd hate to be matched or even out-classed by a Sasquatch, Hellfire, or Talon. I think the logical deduction from this thread is that your limbs are great limbs, but so are others out there that are much, much cheaper, and you are trying to get people to pay for R &D that is no better than much cheaper/older technology. It is all about bang for your buck, and KPC has addressed that in great detail already. Why am I being a bit annoyed by all this back and forth?... you blew smoke up theirs before on the other site and you apparently like doing it here too.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

uabdave said:


> No Sid, I think what you were really afraid of is that one of the garage ninny bowyers would put your bow on a hooter shooter right next to one of theirs and suddenly yours wouldnt look like the standout and much of your R & D would be questioned as being justified as well as your costs. I find it strange that now you admit it was because a lot of bowyers frequent that site that you didnt want to send the bow out. From what I can gather there are two Sid's on that site, one joined in 2008 and one in 2010. One post said one was dad and the other son... For anyone in the world, a 5 minute search on that site would have shown you what kind of folks you were dealing with in regard to being bowyers, so it is highly unlikely that you didnt know what you were getting in to with the pass around bow. It is also highly unlikely that one of those guys would try to copy your design, especially since your laminates are made 'in house' as you say and are your own mix. BTW, if you really thought that you were going to be "copied", then why didnt you just come out and say that on the other site...? All I read was you were so busy you never got to finish it. Blowing smoke up the rear-ends of the folks over there is what I gleaned off that entire exchange.
> 
> I know you'd hate to be matched or even out-classed by a Sasquatch, Hellfire, or Talon. I think the logical deduction from this thread is that your limbs are great limbs, but so are others out there that are much, much cheaper, and you are trying to get people to pay for R &D that is no better than much cheaper/older technology. It is all about bang for your buck, and KPC has addressed that in great detail already. Why am I being a bit annoyed by all this back and forth?... you blew smoke up theirs before on the other site and you apparently like doing it here too.


we still debated the sending of the bow right up to the point where it was getting embarasingly late to do so. we didnt send it. 
here is a question though. did any of you spend a single dime on that travel bow. so why the panties in a bunch? did any of you actually loose any money, have any family hurt or loose any fingers? no. so whats with the aggressive tone?

am clearly who i say i am. you can choose to ignore my posts or read them. its your call.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

seems pretty simple to me and no need for a small book - either the limbs have glass or they don't - no room for opinions - just simple facts.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Tone is not aggressive, just annoyed. It's easy to ge annoyed when folks bloviate and sidestep to cover their rears... I just saw another occurence in this thread where you were sidestepping around KPC's posts to cover your statements as Sharp pointed out.

Btw, I know who I am as well... read or ignore as you wish also.

Dave


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> seems pretty simple to me and no need for a small book - either the limbs have glass or they don't - no room for opinions - just simple facts.


i agree... just takes some background to explain since all the cans of worms on priates of archerys forum are coming out in one thread
Border not having an Oly gold?
5Gpp minumum arrow weights
The travel bow thread
and the glass no glass debate. Maybe an orderly que can be formed?

an archer did set an Fita World record at 70 meters with our limbs.
we do have a list of gpps for different bow weights for those that want to push boundaries. (with our products)
travel bow was deemed a waste of our time. (after we built them)
and the book for those that want to read it as to why i dont understand the glass no glass....

now does anyone want to sit down with a bourbon and take this thread more seriously rather than battering each one of your problems with "border" and "Sid" out all in one single breath? it could be a long thread...

Lets start with a Vote. Who is on here from Pirates of Archery?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

uabdave said:


> Tone is not aggressive, just annoyed. It's easy to ge annoyed when folks bloviate and sidestep to cover their rears... I just saw another occurence in this thread where you were sidestepping around KPC's posts to cover your statements as Sharp pointed out.
> 
> Btw, I know who I am as well... read or ignore as you wish also.
> 
> Dave


So ive to keep my replys short as per the book commet and not dodge the questions of which there are dozens if you include the rhetoric ones?

what about my question that KPC dodged? does the "equal tests" include low brace hieghts?

if dodged is the right phrase?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

i can see this going on for hours!


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> Lets start with a Vote. Who is on here from Pirates of Archery?


I use to be :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Sid - 

Here's the problem. You make a very good limb and very good bows, don't think anyone is/has argued that, pretty sure I didn't. The reality is that whether your stuff is "better" than anything else out there, the odds are that very few people in the world would be able to exploit the difference. Current high end stuff from most manufacturers is just that good. So it comes down to feel or possibly beliefs, which by definition is subjective. 

What I do think bothers some folks are what can be read as constant "info-mercials". Trying to educate people is great, but can always be taken in ways other than intended. 

In my experience, it's usually best to state your case and move on, especially when you know where the opposition is coming from. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, I'd like to say that this discussion is interesting, even if some things are beyond me. For instance, why do I care if a limb has glass or not? If it performs, it performs. What I'm getting out of this jives with every other engineering topic I've seen discussed, different materials have different properties. But, the design, build, and application of the materials is far more important than the whether the components come from a certain genre. See the same thing with loudspeakers and electronics. Great marketing story, blah blah blah, but the truth is, it depends, and to get into that conversation, it becomes very qualified and nuanced, and 'better' becomes a matter of 'better for _____'.

When I worked at a Hifi shop, a guy was telling me about his $8,500/pr. tube-based monoblocks that put out a singing 30 watts each. Not particularly low distortion, definitely not accurate or transparent sonically. But, with the right speakers, and the right source material, it was difficult to argue that it was anything but beautiful. A lot of people tried to justify their superiority with technical claims that were, at best questionable, but this guy had the best explanation that could not be refuted. To paraphrase, "If this is how I like to listen to music, and it's my money I'm spending, who is anybody to tell me that my preference is wrong?" Damn right!

I really like hearing what Sid has to say, and I'm okay with him coming at it with an opinion that favors his designs. After all, if he didn't think his stuff was better, why would he bother making it? So long as there's room for others to like what they like, and it isn't belittled, all good to me.

Something I would like to see discussed, is how changing the limb angles via the limb bolts, aside from the pre-load, changes the shape of draw force curve. Similarly, what effect does riser length play in this?

As a spin off question, does going from a 17" to a 19" riser in itself change the optimum draw length for a given set of limbs?


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Something I would like to see discussed, is how changing the limb angles via the limb bolts, aside from the pre-load, changes the shape of draw force curve. Similarly, what effect does riser length play in this?
> 
> As a spin off question, does going from a 17" to a 19" riser in itself change the optimum draw length for a given set of limbs?


Some great questions there and the right answers would help a lot of people in selecting limb length/weight and Riser length :thumbs_up

maybe we can get back on topic instead of draging up past crap from a totally differnt forum that really has nothing to do with this thread, some good info posted, so please dont let egos ruin another thread please,


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

POA, yep, I am there, but I was here first... then LW and TG, btw.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

What does Pirates of Archery have to do with anything - to me it seems that Borderbows has claimed that there is glass throughout the Tradtech Extreme BF limbs - and that GEREP has said that this is not true and that he contacted the person who designed the limbs who also said it is not true - and stated clearly that there is no glass in the working part of the limbs of the Tradtech Extreme BF Limbs - and that he is repeatedly informed you of this in other forums - but you still keep making the claim that there is glass in the working part of these limbs and you claim it is a matter of opinion. Well that is ridiculous - there either is glass in those limbs or there is not - it is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact - and if one is knowingly and willfully distorting facts - well - that makes them a liar - it seems that this forum has a fair share of such. Now - before anyone goes off half cocked - unlike another case where I cought a well known member of this forum in a bold faced lie - I am not saying anyone is necessarily lying in this case - but it is time to cut the crap.

Answer a simple question - are you claiming that the Tradtech Extreme BF limbs have glass in the working part of the limbs?

If you are - I will find out for myself whether they do or not - and I will publish it - simple matter - just call the maker and ask!


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you are - I will find out for myself whether they do or not - and I will publish it - simple matter - just call the maker and ask!


You're making an assumption that Lancaster will be completely honest. It's one man's word against another's.

The only way I see to put this to rest would be to dissect a limb and examine it...kind of like analyzing photos & videos to help determine where an archer's arrow is within their sight picture. You can't always believe a man's word. Sometimes you have to investigate it :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ray has a really good point.

Not that I think it's important if the limb has glass in it or not, but not only does Tradtech not make the limbs, and as such, would only know what Samick would tell them, based on Sid's post differentiating S2 glass versus E glass, it might be good to define what 'glass' is before asking the question. I don't know the difference between them, but I can see where it might become ambiguous. Depending on how far you can throw Wikipedia, consider this....

"Glass is an amorphous (non-crystalline) solid material. Glasses are typically brittle and optically transparent.
The most familiar type of glass, used for centuries in windows and drinking vessels, is soda-lime glass, composed of about 75% silica (SiO2) plus sodium oxide Na2O from soda ash, lime CaO, and several minor additives. Often, the term glass is used in a restricted sense to refer to this specific use.
In science, however, the term glass is usually defined in a much wider sense, including every solid that possesses a non-crystalline (i.e., amorphous) structure and that exhibits a glass transition when heated towards the liquid state. In this wider sense, glasses can be made of quite different classes of materials: metallic alloys, ionic melts, aqueous solutions, molecular liquids, and polymers. For many applications (bottles, eyewear) polymer glasses (acrylic glass, polycarbonate, polyethylene terephthalate) are a lighter alternative to traditional silica glasses."

So, like... ahem... the term _instinctive_, it may be simply a matter of disagreeing on what falls under a label, not what's actually happening.

Personally, I don't care. I'm more interested in how riser length and limb angles affect draw force curve shapes and relative draw length suitability.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

good point? Why would tradtech lie? The people that are buying the Extreme BF limbs are buying them because they are top of the line Olympic quality limbs - it makes no difference if they have glass or not - I have Extreme BF's and I don't know if they have glass or not and don't really care either way. If the regular Samick Extreme BF limbs have glass - there is no reason that Tradtech would have to lie and claim that the "tradtech" version does not - it makes no sense - and as Judge Judy often says - "If it doesn't make sense, it is usually not true".

Tradtech designed the bow and gave the specifications to Samick - Tradtech knows what is in the limbs - regardless of whether or not they personally glued them up or not. If you called and spoke to Bob Lee and asked him what his limbs are made out of - would you question him because he himself did not make them?

BTW - in the difference between S2 glass and E glass - note the word "GLASS" - I think that tradtech knows what glass is regardless of what quality or classification is - and they have absolutely no reason to lie about it and I would trust what they said is in their limbs.

I don't hear anyone saying that what the limbs are made out of is a matter of "opinion" besides the guy making the claim.

If I said border bows limbs are made out of used onion peels or laminations of plywood - would that be a matter of "opinion"? 

This is a really simple matter - either there is glass in the working part of the limbs or there is not - and if there is not - somebody is knowning spreading a falsehood about Tradtech - and claiming it is an "opinion" and that is bs.

if there is glass in the limbs - then GEREB is wrong.

simple


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> good point? Why would tradtech lie?


Simple...why would Sid lie?

The way I see it... there's either some less than accurate info being passed off as fact or there's egos involved where someone can't admit that they're wrong.

I don't personally know Sid or anyone from Tradtech but I can understand why a bowyer or company may want to keep their materials or construction processes secret.

Ray :shade:


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't think Tradtech would lie, but I don't know why Sid would lie either. I think it more likely that if somebody is in fact wrong, they were probably mistaken.

BTW, I thought the limbs were designed by Samick, essentially the same limbs used in their olympic bows, but in black. Are they in fact designed by Tradtech?

But, I can speak from other industries, that often the manufacturers do not in fact follow the exact specifications that they're given. They may do some redesigning, thinking that something is just as good, and they've already got of those parts in stock, or think that they know better, or think that nobody's going to find out.

Also, very often, the people who you speak to, even in the same company, don't really know what's going on. I've spoken to sales guys, then engineers at Fujitsu who've told me that ____ required _____ pins to be connected, and the reason their devices weren't responding was because my _____ didn't have _____. After subsequent dinking, I discovered they were flat out wrong, and the issue that they had was entirely firmware related to their communication protocol, and I could work around it if I did things a certain way. They didn't lie to me. They weren't stupid. They just didn't have the whole picture.

I'm not saying that's the case with either Tradtech or Borders. I know with certainty that I don't have a clue, except that such things do happen, so holding out the possibility that different parties can give different answers when nobody's lying, isn't that ridiculous.

Given what JParanee has posted with direct comparisons, it would seem that I'd be well-served if I happened to fall into a set of limbs of either design, and I don't give a hoot about what's in them, aside from dinner conversation.

Until then, I'll have to be content to let it float as unsettled.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> I know with certainty that I don't have a clue, except that such things do happen, so holding out the possibility that different parties can give different answers when nobody's lying, isn't that ridiculous.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> travel bow was deemed a waste of our time. (after we built them)


I have an idea. Why don't you send one to Blacky Schwarz and let him test it. See how it stacks up...no pun intended. 

What could that hurt? 

KPC


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

when someone starts saying that something that can easily be determined as fact or fiction is merely his "opinion" - that leads me to believe that he knows what he is saying is not true - or that he suspects what he is saying is not true - simple as that. Tradtech is not out there, to my knowledge anyhow, claiming that Border bows are not made out of what Border says that they are made out of - and then saying it is just their "opinion" that they are not. Think about it.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

im sayiny there could be a missinterpretation. in either the question, or the answer. there is a possability!
i never said you were a liar, or i never questioned your honour, integrety, or the maners you were brought up with. nor am i of asking such of Lancaster. a missunderstanding is simply a missunderstanding, two people with two differet definitions, is not uncomon.
now i could be wrong too, but not enough info, means the question is not fully answered in my mind. but that means that there is no need to get all "questioned over it" its not a personal slur on anyone. its just ANOTHER question on a forum.

That said on the limb mass table that was collected on another forum. where people weighted there individual limbs the Samick Masters were light mass limbs, and from what i remember had Zentron S in them, this tells us that there is simply very very little of it in there, making it a mostly carbon limb.

now risers vs DFC.
there are several things that all mingle into the same topic here.
String tension. this is the outward push on the limbs at BH. the more the limbs are pushed forwards by the limb bolts the more string tesion goes up. this makes a bow more noisey, but a cleaner release of the nock
BH, the higher the BH the more string tension goes up. lbs only changes by something silly like 1/4lbs per inch of BH. so dont worry about that one.
but higher BH also shortens the DFC, as does winding the limb bolts. but for two different but similar. issues.
both pull the recurve round making it smaller. but one does it by increasing the limb angle, and the other because the string is shorter.
you have two parts that give you a longer draw to a bow. limb length and string length.
increase either and you can pull the bow back further.
risers increase string length for the same limbs.
so, here is a fun one.
with the limb bolts wound out. trace the profile of the limb with a high brace.
with the limbs bolts wound in and with a low BH (about 1/2" or so) retrace the limb profile ad you will find its very close to beig the same.
this shape is the quiet, stable shape of a limb. and this is what you will be looking for. 
then you have limb shape. Wind the limbs in with a high BH and watch the limbs (mainly a target bow with stabilisers) get sensitive to limb flap. too low and the same happens. 
this brings us to a next aspect. SHort risers are more stocky bows so get a little less limb flap. longer bows do tend to show all this.

does all this make a bit of sence?


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> now risers vs DFC.
> there are several things that all mingle into the same topic here.
> String tension. this is the outward push on the limbs at BH. the more the limbs are pushed forwards by the limb bolts the more string tesion goes up. this makes a bow more noisey, but a cleaner release of the nock
> BH, the higher the BH the more string tension goes up. lbs only changes by something silly like 1/4lbs per inch of BH. so dont worry about that one.
> ...


Thanks Sid good info, from reading what youve said it is better in ILF to select limb weight to give either low or midway setting on limb bolts.

Ive been retuning my Nilo for new 500 lightspeeds, using (shorts) 48# winex limbs arrows were 29" with 100g points and 4" feathers gave me 65y point on (300g arrow), arrows bareshafted to 20y no problem but after that it didnt look so tidy, wound limbs out to min setting and added another 70g up front on the arrows (370g arrow), they bareshaft perfect out to 30y and now have 60y point on, interesting that going from max setting to min and adding 70g only changed my PO by 5 yards, I must of found that sweet spot in arrow/limb effeciency. Normally I like my ILF limbs at that midway setting but not always possible when looking for perfect tune.

Still have some tweaking to do, maybe experiment at little with brace height to see if I can maintain good tune but slightly smoother draw feel.

I will add that my choices for not buying the most expensive high end limbs has mostly to do with available funds, I have a growing family and Recurve is a break from Longbow shooting, I cannot justify spending top money for a shooting style Im not 100% commited to. The Nilo although a high end riser, I bought for 1/2 the retail price from a friend, Im bit of a bargin hunter lol.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

steve. you somehow need to find a post on another us forum where i posted photos of what to look for in limb profile.
if your looking for speed. wind the limbs in and then reduce the bh till the limbs give max string wrap without going noisy. this does make the bow a little more sensitive to torque. but its just a little. on the other hand if its stability and gaps are not a problem mid to out would be better. again looking for max string wrap without noise.
our view on riser lenght vs bow length for draw length. is that risers can make a half bow size difference.
for example. a 68" bow is smoothest when on a 23" riser. so will take the longest draw. the 68"bow thats least smooth for its lenght is the 27" riser. but this come back to the limb and string combo being the part that gives draw length. so if for string angles you insist that you want a 70" bow with a 27" draw. do your self a favour and get a 27" riser. if you want a 68" bow and have a 31" draw then get a 23"riser to make your draw lenght work.
our view is that if you have a long draw get the longer limbs. and if you have a short draw get short limbs. then pick a riser that gets you shooting in the style that suits you. hunting blinds etc 15" riser. and open field target get better string angles with longer risers.
no doubt someone will disagree but its what we find works for a quality shooting experience.



steve morley said:


> Thanks Sid good info, from reading what youve said it is better in ILF to select limb weight to give either low or midway setting on limb bolts.
> 
> Ive been retuning my Nilo for new 500 lightspeeds, using (shorts) 48# winex limbs arrows were 29" with 100g points and 4" feathers gave me 65y point on (300g arrow), arrows bareshafted to 20y no problem but after that it didnt look so tidy, wound limbs out to min setting and added another 70g up front on the arrows (370g arrow), they bareshaft perfect out to 30y and now have 60y point on, interesting that going from max setting to min and adding 70g only changed my PO by 5 yards, I must of found that sweet spot in arrow/limb effeciency. Normally I like my ILF limbs at that midway setting but not always possible when looking for perfect tune.
> 
> ...


----------



## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Holy Blarney Folks, does anyone hear actually shoot their bows or just write and talk abut them.


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

LongStick64 said:


> Holy Blarney Folks, does anyone hear actually shoot their bows or just write and talk abut them.


This post is tired...Like someone that posts on an internet forum , or reads an internet forum cant possibly have time to do those things, AND shoot their bow...Some folks don't watch much if any T.V...(I haven't watched an hour of T.V. since this time last week, myself...Not much worth watching, really)....Some folks post on internet forums on their breaks at work...Plus it's been raing a good bit the last two days...Do you stand in the rain and shoot your bow?...I don't.........Jim


----------



## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> we still debated the sending of the bow right up to the point where it was getting embarasingly late to do so. we didnt send it.
> here is a question though. did any of you spend a single dime on that travel bow. so why the panties in a bunch? did any of you actually loose any money, have any family hurt or loose any fingers? no. so whats with the aggressive tone?
> 
> am clearly who i say i am. you can choose to ignore my posts or read them. its your call.



it wasnt your timing that embarrassed you..........

Nope, I wasnt out anything when you bailed on the traveling bow. Only wallet hurt was possibly yours.
You may clearly be who you say you are...But your word has clearly been proven to be of little to no value. That right there ended my interest in Border bows. I bet Im not the only one


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> it wasnt your timing that embarrassed you..........
> 
> Nope, I wasnt out anything when you bailed on the traveling bow. Only wallet hurt was possibly yours.
> You may clearly be who you say you are...But your word has clearly been proven to be of little to no value. That right there ended my interest in Border bows. I bet Im not the only one


ok. you have chosen to test my word by way of me bailing on you getting a freebe. ok sounds reasonable... i make a bow and send it to a chain of people. i made the bow and bailed on sending it because it was of no benefit to me. you all have your own bow to shot. its not like you lost on earning or time with your partners or family. and just because you put your name to a list of interested prospective bow testers your calling this shot.
another reason not to be on POA.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> but higher BH also shortens the DFC, as does winding the limb bolts. but for two different but similar. issues.
> both pull the recurve round making it smaller. but one does it by increasing the limb angle, and the other because the string is shorter.
> you have two parts that give you a longer draw to a bow. limb length and string length.
> increase either and you can pull the bow back further.
> risers increase string length for the same limbs.


I don't have TV. I've got kick ass surround sound and a projector for DVDs and Dance Dance Revolution, but that's about as far as it goes, so this is my inside time... 

So, When you say that cranking limb bolts in and shortening string length shorten the draw force curve, is it just like re-sizing a picture, in that you could take the same graph, and just make it narrower, or something else? 

So, when you say that string length gives you a longer draw, are you saying that a longer riser will provide a longer draw than a shorter riser? It would seem to make sense, in that you would have less string angle, so from a straight geometry perspective, less string movement at the tips for a given horizontal movement at the nock. Though, it would also seem to imply that the resulting increased leverage at the beginning of the draw because of this ratio would mean less stacking at the beginning of the draw cycle, and possibly less energy storage. Can you clarify?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

yeah. that sounds about right. ok lets take a silly example to exagerate the idea. put a 2" string on a 60" bow. bh will be 26" and the bow would stack straight away. no probs there. and its probably broke doing so.
now take a string thats 62" long onthe same 60" bow. you would have to pull it to 5 or 6 inches before you would get any draw weight. and stack would be out at 39" of draw. so string has something to do with it.
bow length will also defend things for you. for example again. max draw limbs foulded to right angles. strin straight out. a bow with 17" working limbs and 60" long would mean that the max draw is 60 folded in half. 30" plus 17" = 47".
same limbs on a longer bow (string lenght) With a string lenght of 70" gives a flat out draw lenght of 70/2 + 17 = 52".
this shows the longer bow to be smoother.
this is why limb pad angles are used to defend shorter risers as the bows become more draw lenght sensitive when on short risers.



BarneySlayer said:


> I don't have TV. I've got kick ass surround sound and a projector for DVDs and Dance Dance Revolution, but that's about as far as it goes, so this is my inside time...
> 
> So, When you say that cranking limb bolts in and shortening string length shorten the draw force curve, is it just like re-sizing a picture, in that you could take the same graph, and just make it narrower, or something else?
> 
> So, when you say that string length gives you a longer draw, are you saying that a longer riser will provide a longer draw than a shorter riser? It would seem to make sense, in that you would have less string angle, so from a straight geometry perspective, less string movement at the tips for a given horizontal movement at the nock. Though, it would also seem to imply that the resulting increased leverage at the beginning of the draw because of this ratio would mean less stacking at the beginning of the draw cycle, and possibly less energy storage. Can you clarify?


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 9, 2010)

Hello ArcheryTalkers,

In regards to our TradTech BF Extreme limbs. I can see their is some contention about the materials used in their construction. As most of you know these are manufactured for us by Samick Archery in Korea. These limbs are made with a layer of crossweave carbon followed by a layer of unidirectional carbon. They are not made with fiberglass. I have been with TradTech for some time and have always understood this to be the case but just in case I wanted to verify this with Samick before coming to ArcheryTalk. They did confirm this is how our TradTech BF Extreme limbs are constructed. I hope this helps put to rest any possible misunderstanding.

John Wert
TradTech Archery Manager
[email protected]


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

so no zentron s then?
thanks for the clarification


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> it wasnt your timing that embarrassed you..........
> 
> Nope, I wasnt out anything when you bailed on the traveling bow. Only wallet hurt was possibly yours.
> You may clearly be who you say you are...But your word has clearly been proven to be of little to no value. That right there ended my interest in Border bows. I bet Im not the only one


Sid is who he says he is and can be tracked down by email, phone or skype to prove it.

I'm not, or ever was on POA, but a forum I am on had the discussion about the possibility of there being a travelling bow. 

So it never happened, so what? It was an unusual offer and not one you'd expect. I haven't heard of any other limb manufacturers or bowyers even considering doing something like that.

Can we draw a line in the sand and leave the red herring at it, please.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

From what I understand - this clarification has been made more than once to you


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Hello ArcheryTalkers,
> 
> In regards to our TradTech BF Extreme limbs. I can see their is some contention about the materials used in their construction. As most of you know these are manufactured for us by Samick Archery in Korea. These limbs are made with a layer of crossweave carbon followed by a layer of unidirectional carbon. They are not made with fiberglass. I have been with TradTech for some time and have always understood this to be the case but just in case I wanted to verify this with Samick before coming to ArcheryTalk. They did confirm this is how our TradTech BF Extreme limbs are constructed. I hope this helps put to rest any possible misunderstanding.
> 
> ...


Thanks John. It's unfortunate that someone had to waste his time with this...again.






sharpbroadhead said:


> From what I understand - this clarification has been made more than once to you


Indeed it has. Now you know why people get a little short when having to correct it over and over and over.

KPC


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Seem to recall that some folks can carry whole threads over their own "misinformation". Why listen to previously proven facts of Einstein and Newton? Why he said he just knew a lighter arrow would carry more momentum than a heavy one for the same speed, he done seen it himself... how many pages of ridiculousness did it take to bring that piece of (mis)information to home as being asinine?

So, Sid hears it from Rob and accepts it, without argument it appears. Seems rational.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Sanford - give it a rest - one has nothing to do with the other anymore than E=MC2 has anything to do with archery in any way that matters to us. This more closely resembles stories of supposedly known typos in books than anything else.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Oh, I think the relationship of energy, mass, and speed are archery related, but since you don't and again brought your own shovel, reopening what all have told you about Byron's typo, we don't really need to hear more made-up theory on shelf-shot bows needing backwards BH adjustment from others, no one cares if you ever figure it out or not ..... 

Sid builds limbs and was wondering. I myself have asked the same question on the difference. I have read it on the Internet as being a request of TT, but Internet being what it is (see above paragraph). The fact that Rob double-checked with Samick shows he wanted to make sure what he had been saying was correct. That's way different than trying to convince you that trajectory changes with elevation, BH changes, plunger operation, momentum... bout' everything even a novice archer should be way beyond needing debate. But, you carry on and on.


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Go to TG or POA and see how many bowyers have done pass around bows to promote their product. Just bc you have never heard of such a thing, doesnt mean it does not exist in the world outside AT. Many have done it and continue to do it to promote their product, one that comes to mind right now is Journeyman Archery, but there are like 3 active threads over at TG in the past few months for travel bows. Also, when someone doesnt own up to his word on POA, what makes you think his word is any good here or any other forum. He flat out lied over there about why he didnt send the bow out... does that hurt my feelings, NO. Did I lose any skin off my knuckles, NO... but that does make me question his motives here with the infomercials, smoke and mirrors about limb composition. I, like Trapperdave, lost respect for their way of doing business and it probably kept me from looking for their limbs for my ILF and flat out ordering a Black Douglas new when I was getting into no wheels. 

He lost a lot of potential business from some top notch shooters over there from that debacle. Red herring, I doubt it.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

Hey guys can I get my question answered now from page 3? I thought Sid did pretty good at explaining (a little technical for me lol) about how carbon being lighter than glass can make a better performing limb and if layered in different directions, can be better at keeping a limb from twisting etc. My other question was about bamboo... How does it enhance a limb? Thanks


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> Hey guys can I get my question answered now from page 3? I thought Sid did pretty good at explaining (a little technical for me lol) about how carbon being lighter than glass can make a better performing limb and if layered in different directions, can be better at keeping a limb from twisting etc. My other question was about bamboo... How does it enhance a limb? Thanks


lets say there is 10% difference in wood vs bamboo when the bamboo is optimised for that trad longbow design. so at best its 10% as a number plucked out the air. 
we glued up a limb without composits of any kind and the bow worked out at 2lbs at 28". so add the composits and you get a 40lb bow. so the cores are 2lbs in 40. and one coretype is 10% of 2lbs. over another. not much in modern bows. bit different in a hh bow. where the cores might make a 10lbs bow.
we offer a bamboo core as its something different. it gives some people confidence as being better. and it adds an option to the bows.
its a extra item on our list as it costs more to buy. and its not something we do everyday. so we stop our usual routine to add it in. but we cant see it in a dfv and the same core dimensions gives us the same bow weight.. so its not any different there.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

i honestly dont think i lost out on this deal.
neither did you.
a deal is when two people exchange something. you never gave me anything. so there is no deal. no duty. no honour to oblige.




uabdave said:


> Go to TG or POA and see how many bowyers have done pass around bows to promote their product. Just bc you have never heard of such a thing, doesnt mean it does not exist in the world outside AT. Many have done it and continue to do it to promote their product, one that comes to mind right now is Journeyman Archery, but there are like 3 active threads over at TG in the past few months for travel bows. Also, when someone doesnt own up to his word on POA, what makes you think his word is any good here or any other forum. He flat out lied over there about why he didnt send the bow out... does that hurt my feelings, NO. Did I lose any skin off my knuckles, NO... but that does make me question his motives here with the infomercials, smoke and mirrors about limb composition. I, like Trapperdave, lost respect for their way of doing business and it probably kept me from looking for their limbs for my ILF and flat out ordering a Black Douglas new when I was getting into no wheels.
> 
> He lost a lot of potential business from some top notch shooters over there from that debacle. Red herring, I doubt it.


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I think you lost me a little. If i understand right, bamboo is also light (like carbon) so improves performance over just glass/wood limbs,but carbon is sort of the new high tech bamboo?


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

bowhuntrmaniac said:


> ...but carbon is sort of the new high tech bamboo?


I'm not a bowyer BHM, but in my opinion you are confusing a "core" material with outer laminations. Even when carbon is used as one or more of the outer laminations, there is still a core material consisting of wood, bamboo, foam, etc.

So, no...In my opinion I would not consider the new high tech bamboo.

KPC


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Energy Mass and speed - ah - the speed of light squared - and what that equation is saying is that Energy is Mass multiplied by the speed of light squared and is a theory that attempts to partially explain the nature of the universe - not the flight of the arrow! The theory of relativity has no practical application for archery whatsoever.

And yes - the Byron Ferguson thing was explained quite clearly to me by both Byron and his publisher when they both said that the book is correct as written and that there is and was no typo - the publisher explained it quite clearly when he stated his opinion of the person who made this stuff up.

Anyhow - enough for me on this thread


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I was refering to bamboo as one of the lamenations, but as to "core" is that the middle part of the "fade out" ? (Please excuse my ignorance) . Also I understand that "foam" core gives more consistant performance in regard to temp. variations over a wood type core. John Wert told me IIRC that foam core will make a bow feel smoother but might give up a little in speed over wood core.
I have a hard time visualizing "foam" as any thing but like styrofoam. What exactly is this made of ? I understand that it is something very strong and rigid and probably lighter weight than wood?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> i honestly dont think i lost out on this deal.
> neither did you.
> a deal is when two people exchange something. you never gave me anything. so there is no deal. no duty. no honour to oblige.


I'm also at a loss why anyone would be THAT upset because you decided not to do a 'traveling bow'. So what if a person or company changes their mind about doing something...especially when no one other than the individual or company has invested anything into it. There may be legitimate reasons not to follow through with an idea.

It amazes me how quickly some people seem to jump to conclusions and pass judgement upon someone else as if they're perfect and have never changed their minds or made mistakes.

It would be different if people had invested money into this and lost something...other than the bowyer.

Ray :shade:


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Ray it wasnt a big deal until he revealed his real reason for welching on the travel bow and that it had nothin to do with the reason he left posted on POA. He lied, plain and simple. In my book that is a big deal. Dishonesty is what it is.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

uabdave said:


> Ray it wasnt a big deal until he revealed his real reason for welching on the travel bow and that it had nothin to do with the reason he left posted on POA. He lied, plain and simple. In my book that is a big deal. Dishonesty is what it is.


If he truly lied...than he is wrong...but who here or any where for that manner has never lied?

If a person has lied...they should than confess, ask for forgiveness, learn from it and than put it behind them...just as every man should.

I have a feeling there is more to this story than what is being shared. There's always their side, your side and the truth...and sometimes the truth isn't always easy to know....especially when assumptions are being made to fill in the holes.

Ray :shade:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

it seems like there are a few that have issues with the truth lately - and while it is true that none of us are without sin, that does not mean that we should tolerate and make excuses for lies either - especially unrepentant lies. We all know now that at least two fairly well known names in trad archery have been caught taking liberty with the truth in this forum - neither has come clean - it is what it is - and maybe we should let it rest and not let the personal character flaws of these individuals make the entire sport look bad.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Just want to thank Sid, on the info from his earlier posts I had a great day yesterday playing with my ILF setups from max to min limb load to see how the bow reacted to tune and feel, it was very enjoyable and learnt alot about tuning. Normally Im not so brave to mess with my setups but from what Sid posted it inspired me to experiment :thumbs_up


The stuff that went on at POA really has nothing to do with the OPs original questions, so please drop it as you have ruined what I thought was a good/informative thread.


----------



## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

uabdave said:


> Ray it wasnt a big deal until he revealed his real reason for welching on the travel bow and that it had nothin to do with the reason he left posted on POA. He lied, plain and simple. In my book that is a big deal. Dishonesty is what it is.


your attempt to deface my reputation is quite remarkable.
here is how i see it.
i found my self somwhere i didnt want to be and realised no one would be out of pocket. in time money or friends. so i made polite excuses for my absence on the travel bow and never returned.
polite excuses is a british thing thats very socially acceptable..
i have my feelings over your motives to deface my name but if i dont tell you am i hiding what my reaaons are and being distrustfull by doing so.
we had several reasons to bail on the travel bow. i left you one reasson. now you have heard theres.
so my reasons were
i didnt see the reason in sending the bow to bowyers
i didnt feel to funky about being late with the project after taking so long to set the bow up.
we were doing just fine without the costly expense of sending it
there were others but if i only told you one reason and not the reast im decitfull. 
now with the attack on my name. another reason for us not sending the bow has proven clear to me.


----------



## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

*WOW!. Off topic, arguing..etc. 

What happens on other forums needs to stay on those forums. 

Done. *


----------

