# Frustrated Right Now.... Carbon Element RKT and BHs



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

Didn't read everything but seen all I needed in 3rd paragraph, get some 340 or 330 spine arrows and your prob will go away, every RKT bow I have tuned this year as well as all mine needs a 340 or as I shoot a 330 spine arrow to tune right, its nit the bow just arrow selection, RKT's throw ALOT of energy and require a stiffer arrow, I have 2 turbos had three but sold one and had an Alpha Elite and all of them set at 28"/60-63# and with a 26.5" arrow a 330 bloodline or 340 flatline is what I had to shoot to get to tune, everyone that I have built strings for and tuned this year in my shop with a RKT equipped bow... Same issue, also with the roller guard on these bows you need alittle top cam lean also, check it at full draw and it should be straight but static will have a slight lean


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

I would think weak arrow as well. I could never shoot a bare shaft until I fixed cam lean at full draw on a draw board. Your problem lies in one or both of these issue's.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

Nitroboy said:


> Didn't read everything but seen all I needed in 3rd paragraph, get some 340 or 330 spine arrows and your prob will go away, every RKT bow I have tuned this year as well as all mine needs a 340 or as I shoot a 330 spine arrow to tune right, its nit the bow just arrow selection, RKT's throw ALOT of energy and require a stiffer arrow, I have 2 turbos had three but sold one and had an Alpha Elite and all of them set at 28"/60-63# and with a 26.5" arrow a 330 bloodline or 340 flatline is what I had to shoot to get to tune, everyone that I have built strings for and tuned this year in my shop with a RKT equipped bow... Same issue, also with the roller guard on these bows you need alittle top cam lean also, check it at full draw and it should be straight but static will have a slight lean


I have been wanting to try a stiffer spine. And the bloodlines have a perfect GPI in 340 for my needs. Gunna have to give it a shot. I was think the same thing and didn't want to mention it yet becasue I didn't want to influence or persuade answers. Thank you for your response.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

rraming said:


> I would think weak arrow as well. I could never shoot a bare shaft until I fixed cam lean at full draw on a draw board. Your problem lies in one or both of these issue's.


I checked for cam lean static and full draw. And it is nill.... Seems to have a true centershot without any funky sway


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## HUNTNFISHIA (Jul 12, 2010)

i have a 2012 carbon element rkt, set at 29" and 65# and shoot beman ics hunter 340's cut to 29.5". with 100grain thunderheads, blazers, insert and nockturnal i believe the total weight of the arrow is around 433g. i can change from my field points to thunderheads and back with no problems. this is what works for me. hope this helps.


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## flag (Oct 4, 2009)

try spinning your nocks to a different vane and see it changes i had some gold tips that i could not tune broadheads with them until i started spinning the nocks but i think you be better off going with a stiffer spine i have always heard that if an arrow chart recommends a certain spine then go one size stiffer and you will be good


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Weak spine


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

LOL... Every spine chart from Carbon Express, Easton, GoldTip, Beman, and everyone else is wrong.... Why do all companies recomend weak spines still. I understand that bows have come a long way with more aggressive cams and higher IBO but its time to get everything back on track. Back when I had the trial OT2 it had shown my optimum spine was 370-380ish, and an 85 grain head on a 400 soine got close but was still just touching the green on the weak side.

I have been trying to go back to aluminum as well and I have been thinking about xx75 2413. But out of this chart for aluminums what would you guys choose. keep in mind they are cut at 27.25"

Go to the link and then click on the true specs tab

http://eastonarchery.com/arrows/alloy-xx75-gamegetter/0/2


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

Keep in mind what I said, the RKT cams are ALOT more efficient than most, they put more energy into the arrow than other cams like them, it's not that the charts are wrong but every chart in the world is just a recommendation nothing set in stone and most bows they work fine with but the RKT's and few others but its not the majority. ONLY way to know what is gonna work is to shoot it, no chart or program will do that, they can get close but nothing beats actually doing it and with the RKT cams you'll need a stiffer arrow than any chart or program will state, Just the way it works man, On the aluminum shafts with RKT's I would go with a 2315 or 2219 for spine, prob the 2315 just to cut some weight but that's just me.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

Sukpad89 said:


> Hey everyone, I'm looking for you supertuners to help me out a bit. So I have had my carbon element for a while now and it has always been finicky. I just can't get my BHs and fieldtips to fly together. Now Let me tell you all the situation real quick.
> 
> Specs Bow: 2012 Carbon Element RKT @ 61# 28.5"dl, factory string with about 3-4k shots on it, QAD HDX Drop away (hoyt addition), 1 brass nocking point w/ d-loop, HHA OL- 5519, Dead Center Archery Stabs front and back weighted (perfetly to eliminate torque), Hoyt aftermarket side plates (also eliminates torque)
> 
> ...


Why does everyone think it's a spine issue? He gives you the clue in what I highlighted. He shoots mechanicals fine, but doesn't shoot fixed blades good. He doesn't have enough offset in his vanes to steer his fixed BHs. As blade surface area increases, the ability for the BH to steer the arrow increases, hence the need for 3* straight offset or helical fletching.

To the OP, take 2 arrows and fletch them with more offset or with a helical and see what that does for you. I'd bet you'd be surprised at the improvement you see in your fixed blade BH flight.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

2lunger said:


> Why does everyone think it's a spine issue? He gives you the clue in what I highlighted. He shoots mechanicals fine, but doesn't shoot fixed blades good. He doesn't have enough offset in his vanes to steer his fixed BHs. As blade surface area increases, the ability for the BH to steer the arrow increases, hence the need for 3* straight offset or helical fletching.
> 
> To the OP, take 2 arrows and fletch them with more offset or with a helical and see what that does for you. I'd bet you'd be surprised at the improvement you see in your fixed blade BH flight.


Some of us don't THINK it's the problem some if us KNOW its the problem, I tune 150-200 bows a year for people building strings and setting up bows, the spine issue with a bow that has RKT cams is what it is, the bow needs stiffer arrows to tune properly, I have set up and tuned numerous RKT equipped bows and everyone of them won't tune perfectly unless its a stiffer arrow than the norm, I have tuned em with a straight fletch no offset and Slick Tricks with no issues as long as its a stiff arrow, I shoot 28"/60# and have to shoot a 330 spined Bloodline shaft to tune right and that's with a 4 fletch 5 deg hard helical


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

Hoyt's do like em stiff. Even my olde Cybertec with cam 1/2 likes a stiffer spined arrow. Took me several years of fighting the charts to figure that out.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

Nitroboy said:


> Some of us don't THINK it's the problem some if us KNOW its the problem, I tune 150-200 bows a year for people building strings and setting up bows, the spine issue with a bow that has RKT cams is what it is, the bow needs stiffer arrows to tune properly, I have set up and tuned numerous RKT equipped bows and everyone of them won't tune perfectly unless its a stiffer arrow than the norm, I have tuned em with a straight fletch no offset and Slick Tricks with no issues as long as its a stiff arrow, I shoot 28"/60# and have to shoot a 330 spined Bloodline shaft to tune right and that's with a 4 fletch 5 deg hard helical


Maybe you should check your ego at the door Nitro, you sound like Dale. lol. 

Question for you, if it's a spine problem, wouldn't it affect ALL of his BHs, not just his fixed blade ones? And the need for stiffer arrows, IMO, points to a nock travel issue, not a cam efficiency issue. You're running arrows in the same realm as the K&K bows which have horrendous nock travel and use the extra stiff arrow to mask it. But what do I know, you have numerous more bows tuned than I.....


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## Timinator (Feb 10, 2012)

My Matrix (sold it) had to have a 340 spine to tune. Shouldn't have, a 400 was what was recommended according to the charts. I went nuts and never got closer than about 5". I tried a 340 spine and two quick adjustments later I was right on target with field tips and Exodus broad heads.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't have a ego 1lunger, lol, what I said was fact as I and many other tuners have found out, you can take a de-tuned bow with weak arrows and get a true spinning mechanical to hit with FP, THAT'S what mechanicals were intentionally designed for, lazy people that don't want to tune or people that don't know how to tune a bow, I've never messed with any K&K bows you mentioned, my area is usually PSE, Mathews, Hoyt, Martin, Parker, Bowtech and a few others and with that said alot if the older PSE bows I have tuned have horrendous nock travel but yet will tune with a weaker arrow. You are prob the best tuner bow tech around I dont know and really don't care, I do what makes a good forgiving shooting bow for my customers, The RKT cams have excellent nock travel and are a efficient cam, til you prove the world otherwise your thoughts hold no valid value sir....


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

I've only shot Hoyt and own a CRX35 and Alphamax 35 now, both are 60lb limbs, both shoot a 340 spine (GT7595) with either 100 or 125 heads (the alphamax needs the 125's) even the Fuel cam (CRX) needs a stiffer spine than what On Target says (in general). The RKT cam is a little more efficeint than the fuel cam, needing an even stiffer shaft (Hoyt has a video online about it, if you would like to watch it go to their website) Even though his arrows are short a 400 spine shaft does not work for me (drawing 29.5") until I'm around 50-53 lbs. (shafts cut to 29.25")
I have never had a mechanical braodhead show any flight other than a field point (never bought garbage so I have not shot that many) A fixed blade broadhead is a "normal" story
Broadhead right of Fieldpoint=weak spine
No reason to argue about proven facts because you clearly don't like someone, it's a weak shaft. He also stated it is not cam lean, tuned bow etc.. It is all that is left, given the info above, his bow, along with most others asking for info, is perfectly tuned.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

2lunger said:


> Why does everyone think it's a spine issue? He gives you the clue in what I highlighted. He shoots mechanicals fine, but doesn't shoot fixed blades good. He doesn't have enough offset in his vanes to steer his fixed BHs. As blade surface area increases, the ability for the BH to steer the arrow increases, hence the need for 3* straight offset or helical fletching.
> 
> To the OP, take 2 arrows and fletch them with more offset or with a helical and see what that does for you. I'd bet you'd be surprised at the improvement you see in your fixed blade BH flight.


I have tried many other arrows all about 400 spine over the past year with many different fletchings. Some off the top of my head. Easton ST Excel, Easton FMJ, Easton Flatline, Easton xx75, Easton xx78, Carbon Express Max Hunters, Carbon Express Bluestreaks, Beman ICS Hunters, Beman ICS Speed, Beman ICS BowHunters, Cabelas Stalker Extreams. I do most of my own fletching and I have use many different fletchers... AAE3", AAE 4", Blazer 2", Fuzion 2.1"... And I fletched these with Arizon Easy Mini, Arizona Easy Carbon, JoJan Straight, Jojan Right Helical, Blazer Jig Helix.... I don't have nor have I tried the Blitzenburg, But I very much want to.

I probably should have mentioned that before. But granted more helical and offset helps it never fixed it. I feel much better if my arrows shoot good with a BH and no fletching at all. Which I managed on my ol Hoyt Powertec and slicktrick standards. I believe its a spine issue and I'm simply in a denial stage right now looking across the room at 200 arrows in 400 spine (mostly of the arrows I listed above) and thinking about how much its gunna suck to have to start over. But I guess that means I have plenty of arrows for my GF to use. She reicently uped to 50# and I can use these 400s for her now.

Thank you for the aluminum recomendations. I'm partial to lighter aluminums as well. At 60# even with the RKT it can get pretty slow quick with any arrow over 450grains.

What budget shaft would you guys recomend to get be to a total arrow weight of about 390 grains (+/- 10 grains) in a 340-330 spine with a 100 grain tip. Kinda looks like the bloodlines might be my best bet.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

Love the bloodlines that what I shoot and they are sweet killers too


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

Nitroboy said:


> Love the bloodlines that what I shoot and they are sweet killers too


Ya. I want to try them and at $80 a dozen thats not to bad. I got tired of HIT inserts and the crap that comes with them. Give me a standard(ish) diameter shaft with a standard insert these days. All this fancy advancements are cool but in the end I have no problums with the ol technology. How is the finnish on these shafts? Are they easy to fletch or do they give you issues ever? I have heard the needed a lot of roughing up.


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## sureshot516 (Sep 15, 2011)

Gonna go out on a limb here

Draw length is too long.....


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I would suspect alittle scotch brite pad or steel wool would probably make the vanes stick better cause the shafts are pretty slick BUT they come standard with a cool looking factory wrap that bonds very very well, very much worth the money, like you said you'll get a ST diameter arrow with a reg insert, best if both worlds... Smallerish diameter and a regular insert


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## Mitigator33 (Jan 3, 2012)

I have the RKT CE and also had the 2011 CE. I have no problem getting the RKT to put fixed BH and Mechanicals in the same place as field points with either. My brother however bought the 2011 from me and all his BH' s are hitting about 2" to the right. 

I'm a 30" draw He is 29.5" Draw with 70lb. I shoot the ABH Samurai and Magnus Stinger. He shoots ABH, Shuttle T and Ramcat. 

Both shoot .300 spine. I'm at 477g and he's at 449g. I have found the heavier arrows do better. Also I switched from vanes to 2" razyr feathers and they seem to steer better. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

Mitigator33 said:


> I have the RKT CE and also had the 2011 CE. I have no problem getting the RKT to put fixed BH and Mechanicals in the same place as field points with either. My brother however bought the 2011 from me and all his BH' s are hitting about 2" to the right.
> 
> We both shoot 30" draw with 70lb. I shoot the ABH Samurai and Magnus Stinger. He shoots ABH, Shuttle T and Ramcat.
> 
> ...


By your signature your also shooting a .300" spine arrow at 28.5"..... That makes a difference, ALOT of people would be trying to shoot a longer .340" spine at 30"/70# and prob not having very good luck with it, you on the other hand have it nailed with the .300" spine at 28.5"


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## Mitigator33 (Jan 3, 2012)

Nitroboy said:


> By your signature your also shooting a .300" spine arrow at 28.5"..... That makes a difference, ALOT of people would be trying to shoot a longer .340" spine at 30"/70# and prob not having very good luck with it, you on the other hand have it nailed with the .300" spine at 28.5"


I forgot to mention that part. We tested several including the .330 spine GT 7595 in 29" and did not get good results. So we went to the .300 spine and cut it to 28.5 so we could stiffen the spine and save some weight at the same time. I went with Axis FMJ and he went with ACC Pro Hunters. I took my golf background and applied it. When you have high swing speed you can take an X stiff shaft and tip it (cut it short at the head end) to stiffen and get less flex when swinging. Same holds true on archery shafts. The feathers also allowed us to save about 18g from the nock end of shaft.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

sureshot516 said:


> Gonna go out on a limb here
> 
> Draw length is too long.....


I dought that but definetly worth bringing up. My form is .... good, I'm no pro but I have had people critique my form and size me up right many times. 28.5 seems just right for me. I have straight back arm, slight bend in my left elbow, stand straight, feet below my shoulders, bend at the waist when shooting from a stand. My anchors are the right side tip of my nose, corner of my mouth and my earlobe for my thumb to hide behind (this makes sure my head is always consistently tilted the same). I started young and as I grew so did my DL untill it finall stoped at 28.5, so far so good. Depending on the bow though I have had some that are better +/- .5"


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## adamst (Oct 21, 2010)

If you think your under spinned try lowering your poundage a 1/4 on both limbs at a time see if that will bring the fp/bh together??? Just a thought before buying a dozen new arrows for no reason.


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## sureshot516 (Sep 15, 2011)

not sure what or how much of a difference between the RKT and XTR hoyt cams are but for what it's worth I'm shooting a 28" DL and 28" arrow @ 63 lbs with the XTR cams and have Zero issue tuning to a .400 spine GTHunter @ 370 gr. I have my F/P and thunderhead 100 grains hitting the same spot.

followed Nuts&Bolts mod french tune to set pins, shot bareshaft which hit 6" left at 20 yrds, put a half twist in the right side yoke took out a half twist in the left and now (FP/Rage?thunderheads all have the same POI)


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## GreggNY (Oct 1, 2010)

Not to hijack this, but this thread got me looking at my own Element RKT 29.5"/70#. I've been shooting carbon express maxima hunter 350s (.337 spine). The carbon express adjusted draw weight chart shows that I should be shooting the 450s (.298 spine). My BHs have been hitting pretty much dead on with my FPs out to 40 yds, but I guess good can always be better. I've never tried a stiffer arrow. Any insight on this?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

GreggNY said:


> Not to hijack this, but this thread got me looking at my own Element RKT 29.5"/70#. I've been shooting carbon express maxima hunter 350s (.337 spine). The carbon express adjusted draw weight chart shows that I should be shooting the 450s (.298 spine). My BHs have been hitting pretty much dead on with my FPs out to 40 yds, but I guess good can always be better. I've never tried a stiffer arrow. Any insight on this?


Try the stiffer spine and see for yourself. Too weak of a spine will not transfer all the energy into the target as it overly flexes on impact.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

henro said:


> Try the stiffer spine and see for yourself. Too weak of a spine will not transfer all the energy into the target as it overly flexes on impact.


Exactly!


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## GreggNY (Oct 1, 2010)

Nitroboy said:


> Exactly!


I was hoping someone with a similar setup had maybe tried this comparison before so I don't have to spend close to $100 on arrows that might not be a good fit. I'll give them a try though and see what happens


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

GreggNY said:


> I was hoping someone with a similar setup had maybe tried this comparison before so I don't have to spend close to $100 on arrows that might not be a good fit. I'll give them a try though and see what happens


You won't be disappointed.


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## pap (Dec 5, 2011)

Not sure if you said anywhere that you paper tuned or not, if you did what were the results? Did you yoke tune?


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## jdrhoads (Nov 16, 2010)

2lunger said:


> Maybe you should check your ego at the door Nitro, you sound like Dale. lol.
> 
> Question for you, if it's a spine problem, wouldn't it affect ALL of his BHs, not just his fixed blade ones? And the need for stiffer arrows, IMO, points to a nock travel issue, not a cam efficiency issue. You're running arrows in the same realm as the K&K bows which have horrendous nock travel and use the extra stiff arrow to mask it. But what do I know, you have numerous more bows tuned than I.....


FYI. Spine issues will show a lot more with fixed broadheads. Not so much with mech. I have seen numerous bows that would shoot mechs and fp perfectly but would not shoot fixed due to weak spine. The Hoyt's are one of the best bows there is as far as nock travel so the stiff arrows are needed because of the energy created not for the reason you are saying.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone... I have been tuning it up and will post results soon


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

jdrhoads said:


> FYI. Spine issues will show a lot more with fixed broadheads. Not so much with mech. I have seen numerous bows that would shoot mechs and fp perfectly but would not shoot fixed due to weak spine. The Hoyt's are one of the best bows there is as far as nock travel so the stiff arrows are needed because of the energy created not for the reason you are saying.


I agree that spine issues will show more with fixed heads, but I beg to differ with you. If you have to shoot an arrow that is so over spined for the dw, dl and tip weight, you're masking a problem and I don't buy the "they are so efficient" argument. Maybe it's just me, but I don't.

I still have my Katera shooting 400 and 340 spine arrows shooting 100 gr heads pretty much equally well. FPs impact the same to 40 yds and BH impact with the 400s is just 2" left of 340s. I'm left handed. Both shafts cut the same length and weigh within 4 grs. of each other. Shafts are ACC Prohunter 390s and ACC 3-60s (340 spine). I was shooting AC superslim 400s and Axis nano 340s out if it before I switched to the ACCs without any problems either. I also have an Elite GT500 using the same ACC set up.

It doesn't really matter what I think, or you for that matter, the OP has moved on and is tuning new arrows all ready. I'll be watching to see his results.

BTW, what arrows are you shooting out of your Bowtech's?


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

2lunger said:


> I agree that spine issues will show more with fixed heads, but I beg to differ with you. If you have to shoot an arrow that is so over spined for the dw, dl and tip weight, you're masking a problem and I don't buy the "they are so efficient" argument. Maybe it's just me, but I don't.
> 
> I still have my Katera shooting 400 and 340 spine arrows shooting 100 gr heads pretty much equally well. FPs impact the same to 40 yds and BH impact with the 400s is just 2" left of 340s. I'm left handed. Both shafts cut the same length and weigh within 4 grs. of each other. Shafts are ACC Prohunter 390s and ACC 3-60s (340 spine). I was shooting AC superslim 400s and Axis nano 340s out if it before I switched to the ACCs without any problems either. I also have an Elite GT500 using the same ACC set up.
> 
> ...


LOL I actually didn't get new arrows. I'm lowering the poundage and shooting 85gr heads. I learned a few things after visiting the pro shop yesturday. Apparently because I'm weak spined I have been shooting nock high and my sight is actually set well left from my centershot line up. I lowered my poundage untill I was able to get my fieldpoints to hit center with my sight in line with my centershot. Just gotta try the 85gr thunderheads in the morning to see if they fly straight. I was also able to tweak out some of my nock high travel and got a better papertune out of it. I'm not a big believer in paper tuning but I now fully believe that my RKT needs stiffer arrows if I bring the poundage back up if I want to get bullet holes.

I know you mentioned that my fletching is probably wacked but I am a believer the fletching is just another way to mask poor tuning... Dont know if you every though about it that way, but i figure that is food for thought. So stiff spine or fletching, how do you mask your tune issues? I'll compensate with a little of both.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

Sukpad89 said:


> LOL I actually didn't get new arrows. I'm lowering the poundage and shooting 85gr heads. I learned a few things after visiting the pro shop yesturday. Apparently because I'm weak spined I have been shooting nock high and my sight is actually set well left from my centershot line up. I lowered my poundage untill I was able to get my fieldpoints to hit center with my sight in line with my centershot. Just gotta try the 85gr thunderheads in the morning to see if they fly straight. I was also able to tweak out some of my nock high travel and got a better papertune out of it. I'm not a big believer in paper tuning but I now fully believe that my RKT needs stiffer arrows if I bring the poundage back up if I want to get bullet holes.
> 
> *I know you mentioned that my fletching is probably wacked but I am a believer the fletching is just another way to mask poor tuning... Dont know if you every though about it that way, but i figure that is food for thought. So stiff spine or fletching, how do you mask your tune issues? I'll compensate with a little of both.*


No. I have never thought of it like that. I can see your point, to some extent, though. Bottom line, you have to have a properly spined arrow for the setup. I agree with that. I've shot BHs with straight fletch and grouped good with them. For me helical groups better, but no matter what fletch you have, if your spine and tune aren't right, it won't work miracles. What I'm having a hard time believing is you need an arrow basically 2 spines over the "norm" to tune these cams. If it were purely a spine issue, I think you would see that a 6 ft. through paper whether you had a FP or BH on your arrow. Generally speaking, when you have to go that overly stiff there is a problem being masked and usually it is bad nock travel. I'm not saying it is, but to have to shoot the equivalent of a 300 spine arrow out of a 60/28 bow isn't right to me. I'll have to look back and see exactly what Nitro's setup is, but I thought it was 60/28 shooting a 26.5" 340 spine. I'm sorry, but that is a super stiff arrow. Almost bolt stiff. Your setup at 60/28.5 with a 27.25 400 could be considered border line, but Nitro's seems overly stiff to me. I'm shooting 27.5 340 and 400 spines out of 70/28 bows without issues.

Obviously you have the bow in your hands and I don't. It's just from this side of the computer screen, it's not making sense in my head.

There are other bows out there that are producing the same speeds or better that don't need an overly stiff arrow. For hybrids PSE comes to mind and Bowtech and Elite for duals or binaries. That's where I'm having a problem with this.

Not to get completely off subject here, and I know I am, but are guys shooting the Vectors having the same issues?

If nothing else, this is great thread.:wink:


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## forkehornreggie (Oct 15, 2012)

I have basically the same set up. I'm sure these guys are right on about spine but I will certainly confirm that you have no fletching contact. My QAD was a bizatch to get clearance with. Make certain to use the T1 launcher too. Just my two cents.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

This thread is very interesting to me. I just bought a Vector 32 DL 29 at 60#. I was anxious to shoot it so I took the WB rest and sight off my Ultratec and put it on the Vector. Looked pretty good to the eye so I went in the yards and shot it. It is really crazy but out to 35 yards it is shooting right where i aim. I never adjusted the rest or the sight. I'm sure when I start to settle in and tune the bow up it will need adjusting but to be honest with you I would not hesitate to carry the bow to the stand. I was using Easton FMJ's 400 at 28 1'2 and with a 100 grain VPA they hit perfect. Go figure.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

I do not disagree with a stiff arrows being more appropriate for broadheads and I certainly agree with larger fletchings for fixed blades. However what I read is:

Fixed blade broadheads impacting right of fieldpoints and then rest was moved to the left, I intrepret as further from the riser for a right handed shooter. In my experience, in this situation I would have first tried moving my rest closer to the riser. Did you try moving your rest to the right? Broadheads impacting right of fieldpoints if usually due to a tail left paper tune indication, for which I would adjust my rest closer to the riser.


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## montanacur (Sep 12, 2005)

BDZ65 said:


> I do not disagree with a stiff arrows being more appropriate for broadheads and I certainly agree with larger fletchings for fixed blades. However what I read is:
> 
> Fixed blade broadheads impacting right of fieldpoints and then rest was moved to the left, I intrepret as further from the riser for a right handed shooter. In my experience, in this situation I would have first tried moving my rest closer to the riser. Did you try moving your rest to the right? Broadheads impacting right of fieldpoints if usually due to a tail left paper tune indication, for which I would adjust my rest closer to the riser.



I just read this thread, and this question above being posed is the exact same one I had. I would have moved my rest to the right. I shoot a 2012 Elite Pulse, which eats up stiff spine. I put my 61lb, 29" draw, with 28.25" CE Maxima 350's through paper and got a slight left tear, which would indicate a weak spine. Kinda blew me away. The bow is tuned amazingly, btw, with everything set correctly. I moved my rest to the right just a touch from the normal 7/8" centershot on Elite's, and I was dead nuts on with my broadheads with a bullet hole through paper. Even in flight everything is darts. Point being, that some of these cams need stiffer spine to get them where they need to be. I shot these same arrows out of my old 67lb Pulse and got good groups, but only decent flight, and I fought with it a lot. This bow has the least amount of cam lean I've seen on a binary setup as well. Good luck to the Op!


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

He was broadhead tuning not paper tuning. Right of FP would dictate a rest move to the left if all else was correct on the bow.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

forkehornreggie said:


> I have basically the same set up. I'm sure these guys are right on about spine but I will certainly confirm that you have no fletching contact. My QAD was a bizatch to get clearance with. Make certain to use the T1 launcher too. Just my two cents.


Yup got the T1 on it and have checked it using both the lip stick and foot powder methods.

So everyone who is watching here are my results. I lowered my pundage and with a few slight adjustments got my bow tuned out to about 35 yards without planing but hitting about 2" right of FP. I decided why not try a different arrow so I ran out and grabbed 1/2 doz Bloodlines 330s and I put the 85 grain tips on to put me at roughly the same weight arrow that I have my HHA sighted in for. Cranked the poundage back up and let em rip. At 40 yards they are hitting about 1" right of fieldpoints... But it was to windy to get any real testing tuning done so I will try on a better day. Might just need to bump the QAD a touch and I should be good to go. Thanks everyone.

I'm also working on trying to find a way to make my own tapes for the HHA 5519 becasue I'm tired of finding a matching tape. Easier to throw a blank on there and make my own lines. Maybe Electrical tape....


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

Hey sukpad, I know this is a little late in the thread to ask this but, did you try shooting a bare shaft? Also wondering if you tried yoke tuning before?


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## montanacur (Sep 12, 2005)

I've always found with broad heads that going opposite of what the Easton tuning guide says for horizontal movement does the right thing. No idea why. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Montanacur,
Thats exactly what I have found also. It is possible the Easton tuning guide, for broadhead tuning, is written with respect to fingers. When paper tuning the horizontal rest movements for fingers is opposite that of release shooters. I certainly do not want to get into an argument with others who have much higher post counts, just offering my experiences.


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## Timinator (Feb 10, 2012)

As I mentioned earlier, the 340 spine should work as it did for my Matrix. I also had a ton of 400 Easton Flatline DOA's, I just watched the classifieds here and found people wanting to trade 340's for 400's. I eventually got all mine traded out. Start checking, or put an ad in yourself. Should get rid of those 400's quick.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

T-bones set up:

*Archery Gear
Compound Setup

 Bow: Hoyt Bone Collector Carbon Element RKT , 72lbs @ 29.5 in draw
Quiver: Fuse Ventra
Sight: Apex/TruGlo Custom 6-pin Bone Collector sight (all green pins, 3/.019 pins and 2/.010 pins)
Stabilizer: Fuse Carbon Blade Hunter (6.5”)
Arrow Rest: Drop-away , custom wrapped
Arrows: Easton A/C/C Pro Hunting Series, Spine: 340 w/ Weighted-insert ( FOC%: 13.6 Total Weight: 502 grains)
Broadheads: G5 T3 100 and G5 Striker (100 grain)
 Release: T.R.U. Ball Bone Collector Beast II
Bowsling: Homemade
Vanes: NAP QuikSpin ST 3.13” (Orange)
Bowstring: Firststring Bone Collector Premium
Peep: G5 Meta Titanium (3/16”)
Kisser: Comfort Kiss
D Loop: T-Bone Custom
Vibration Dampener: Tunerz and String Leeches*

Seems to me he has his tuned on the weak side with the weighted inserts. Granted he doesn't have his arrow length, but I wouldn't think it could be any shorter than 27.5" and with the weight he has listed, they're probably 29".

I still think something is awry sukpad.


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## Sukpad89 (Feb 1, 2012)

IDK.. I got it shooting good at 50 yards now. Honestly I don't believe the element is a very easy to tune bow as many others like to say. Between roller guards, RKT aggretion, etc... I just don't know. I know a guy who knows a guy who is gunna get me hooked up with custome strings and a tune from a guy who know more about hoyts than anyone else apparently... I'll see what comes of that.


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## HoytHunter05 (Jun 5, 2012)

I have a 2011 CE and I believe it has the fuel cams. I too could not get fixed blades to fly good out of my setup. From what Im reading yall are making me think my arrow is underspined. Im shooting 69#, 27.25" dl, arrows (Easton Axis 400's) are around 26" and I believe they weigh right at 420gr. Mechanicals fly just fine and that is what I went back to this season bc i couldnt get my slick trick mags to group. Im going to be looking to purchase some new arrows soon and this has me wanting to try some 340's. Ive just always shot the 400's because thats what is "recommended". Any input for my situation would be appreciated.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

Sukpad89 said:


> IDK.. I got it shooting good at 50 yards now. Honestly I don't believe the element is a very easy to tune bow as many others like to say. Between roller guards, RKT aggretion, etc... I just don't know. I know a guy who knows a guy who is gunna get me hooked up with custome strings and a tune from a guy who know more about hoyts than anyone else apparently... I'll see what comes of that.


Keep us informed. I'm interested to hear what you find out.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

HoytHunter05 said:


> I have a 2011 CE and I believe it has the fuel cams. I too could not get fixed blades to fly good out of my setup. From what Im reading yall are making me think my arrow is underspined. Im shooting 69#, 27.25" dl, arrows (Easton Axis 400's) are around 26" and I believe they weigh right at 420gr. Mechanicals fly just fine and that is what I went back to this season bc i couldnt get my slick trick mags to group. Im going to be looking to purchase some new arrows soon and this has me wanting to try some 340's. Ive just always shot the 400's because thats what is "recommended". Any input for my situation would be appreciated.


Guys are going to need more details about your arrows to help. Are you shooting with a lighted nock, 100 gr. heads, wraps?


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## HoytHunter05 (Jun 5, 2012)

Sorry about not providing more arrow info up front. I am shooting a 5" wrap, lighted nock, and i have tried 100gr hellrazors, ST mags, shuttle T's (all of which spin great and should have FP accuracy). I am shooting T3s right now tho.


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

HoytHunter05 said:


> Sorry about not providing more arrow info up front. I am shooting a 5" wrap, lighted nock, and i have tried 100gr hellrazors, ST mags, shuttle T's (all of which spin great and should have FP accuracy). I am shooting T3s right now tho.


I would think those would be plenty stiff enough with all that weight in the back. How far right are your arrows hitting?


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

sureshot516 said:


> Gonna go out on a limb here
> 
> Draw length is too long.....


To long would be placing BH left of fp so your not to long is say try stiffer arrow first but u said u tried 85 grain heads and that didn't help? That should have made arrow act stiffer?


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## HoytHunter05 (Jun 5, 2012)

2lunger said:


> I would think those would be plenty stiff enough with all that weight in the back. How far right are your arrows hitting?


Not really shooting right, for most part they are hitting pretty random. I tried different heads on different arrows, spinning the nock to different cock vanes and nothing worked. my bow is paper tuned shooting bullet holes and everything is timed right so i dont know what the deal is??


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

So if u shoot same broadhead or same kind do they all hiţ same spot or are the random same broadhead s should be grouping together even if not with field points need to get you some aerosol foot powder and check for vane contact first make sure your not getting any contact


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

Try creep tunning also just going by draw stops or timing marks doesn't always mean cams are in time to creep tune put a piece of electrical tape horizontal on your target step back to 20 yards and take a shot at tape pulling very hard into your back wall then using same arrow take a shot this time let bow creep forward right at point where the valley starts make sure they are both good shots on your part the beginning of valley shot is pretty hard cause bow is going to be trying to jerk shoulder off but they both should hit tape at same height if one shot is above or below tape your timing is off let me know results ill let u know what u need to do if its off


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## HoytHunter05 (Jun 5, 2012)

tripleb2431 said:


> Try creep tunning also just going by draw stops or timing marks doesn't always mean cams are in time to creep tune put a piece of electrical tape horizontal on your target step back to 20 yards and take a shot at tape pulling very hard into your back wall then using same arrow take a shot this time let bow creep forward right at point where the valley starts make sure they are both good shots on your part the beginning of valley shot is pretty hard cause bow is going to be trying to jerk shoulder off but they both should hit tape at same height if one shot is above or below tape your timing is off let me know results ill let u know what u need to do if its off


I will give this a shot. Im assuming I need to do this with field points? As to your other response about getting some contact. wouldnt that affect all of my arrows not just fixed blades? Im looking at getting a new rest very soon just debating on which one I want. thanks for your help!


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes fp and yes it would effect all arrows bit an arrow with fp is very forivinghe vanes can easily correct arrow in flight so it could go unnoticed with fp on arrow


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

HoytHunter05 said:


> Not really shooting right, for most part they are hitting pretty random. I tried different heads on different arrows, spinning the nock to different cock vanes and nothing worked. my bow is paper tuned shooting bullet holes and everything is timed right so i dont know what the deal is??


Do you know what your front of center is on your arrows? If not click on the link below and then click the FOC tab.

http://backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/


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## 2lunger (Nov 16, 2010)

HoytHunter05 said:


> Sorry about not providing more arrow info up front. I am shooting a 5" wrap, lighted nock, and i have tried 100gr hellrazors, ST mags, shuttle T's (all of which spin great and should have FP accuracy). I am shooting T3s right now tho.


What fletching are you using?


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## HoytHunter05 (Jun 5, 2012)

2lunger said:


> What fletching are you using?


2" Fusions. I will work on figuring my FOC tomorrow when I get some free time. really appreciate all of your help


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## jdrhoads (Nov 16, 2010)

Nitroboy said:


> Didn't read everything but seen all I needed in 3rd paragraph, get some 340 or 330 spine arrows and your prob will go away, every RKT bow I have tuned this year as well as all mine needs a 340 or as I shoot a 330 spine arrow to tune right, its nit the bow just arrow selection, RKT's throw ALOT of energy and require a stiffer arrow, I have 2 turbos had three but sold one and had an Alpha Elite and all of them set at 28"/60-63# and with a 26.5" arrow a 330 bloodline or 340 flatline is what I had to shoot to get to tune, everyone that I have built strings for and tuned this year in my shop with a RKT equipped bow... Same issue, also with the roller guard on these bows you need alittle top cam lean also, check it at full draw and it should be straight but static will have a slight lean


X2 I have noticed the same thing happening, especially with FMJ arrows for some reason.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

jdrhoads said:


> X2 I have noticed the same thing happening, especially with FMJ arrows for some reason.


Yup, the smaller the diameter of arrow the weaker the dynamic spine is when shot, larger diameter arrows will tune stiffer than a micro diameter arrow of the same spine rating as per the proper spine checking method, also one brand .400" spine regular diameter arrow will not tune the exact same as a different brand .400" spine regular diameter arrow because of the methods and materials used to build them vary enough that the dynamic spine will be different even though the static spine is the same, but that's just what I have found out in my experimenting and I'm no expert either just love figuring out how stuff works.


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## "Supertec" (Sep 3, 2009)

There is always merit in a stiff spine arrow fixing tuning issues...especially as your draw weight and length increase. My matrix is 70/30 running 340 doa's dead on the money with 2" blazers with field points or BH ( i shoot Montec G5's) i love em. 

that bow was easy to turn . ..just as my alpha elite was for indoor 20yd. spot shooting with G2 XXX ... huge stiff shafts..

Now my pro vantage was a B*&%^... i went through like 7-8 different spines and weights and lengths to get that SOB to shoot 90m fita right. The book was wrong on them all due to being right between the DW and Length to get the spine matched perfect ... your limited at 60lbs outdoor fita. I was at 57lb

In the end it was a matter of cutting arrows, points and spine as well as adjusting DW to get them to group out to 90m. At 20 everything flies fine .. and paper tunes in most bows unless there just setup wrong. Its trial and error some times .. the books are guide lines.... fact is i have arrows with spine and point combinations that should not work but do .. A/C/C's and A/C/E's and thin shaft arrows become harder to tune as things get just out side of the range of the charts.. 

Just my thoughts ... keep em tight "


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