# Pa crossbow opinion



## Tim50

The first year of Pennsylvania Crossbow inclusion was a rousing success for the crossbow supporters. None of the misinformation the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania put out there held water...It was a non event. The woods were not over run with "WalMart" hunters as anti crossbow commissioner Weiner wanted us to believe would happen! 100,000 "gun hunters" did not sell their rifles to buy a crossbow and decimate the whitetail herd as the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania told all who would listen. Luckly the Commissioners chose fact over fiction. We now have three years of full inclusion to provide the Game Commission with all the necessary facts they will need to make an educated decision after the 2012 season. Facts are the crossbow communities best friend and the anti crossbow supporters worst nightmare. Keep your poll the actual hunters of Pennsylvania have spoken!


----------



## damageinc

I agree that the hunters of Pa are speaking.
I think it is much too early to determine the impact of full inclusion since data is being collected while the "test" is being completed, for some time.
I don't have anything against crossbows but more about how they were brought into the mix and the lack of scientific evidence to implement them. The PA game commission may testing with trial and error. In my opinion, changes that impact the resource should be based off of controlled experiments vs. after the fact.
I have heard that PA used other states data to make the determination as well as the impact on SRA's to come to the conclusion but I do not know this as fact. I do however find it difficult to believe if there is a 3 year full inclusion period and a a re-evaluation at the end of this period.
I am only trying to learn what Pa hunters are thinking right now.
According to my numbers (This is not a scientific poll) the poll is and has been showing some interesting results.
It appears that Pa hunters have formulated their opinion and there is a divide. It is interesting to note that over half so far feel that hunters with disabilities are accepted as crossbow users and that almost a third think that crossbow use shouldn’t be questioned. Bringing up the rear is a smaller percentage that wants crossbows excluded.
Keep your votes coming…and thank you.


----------



## mtn. archer

crossbows are not a bad thing .some people should shoot a crossbow instead of a compound because they do not practice with their archery equipment and they end up wounding deer. here in virginia its been legal for a couple of years and you cant even notice the difference.compounds got the same crap when they first came out. some of the old timers out there that cant see there pins anymore it got them back into archery ,i like the idea that when my eye sight starts to go i have a option that i can stay in the sport that i like. be more open minded. do you use a compound if so you have an advantage to so unless you are a die hard traditional shooter you shouldnt have a whole lot to say about crossbows. the antis love when we argue with each other it gives them that more leverage.crossbows have been around for hundreds of years.how long has the compound been around for? HUNTERS SHOULD SUPPORT OTHER HUNTERS!! we are a dieing breed the kids are not really takeing to it so who will keep the tradition going?


----------



## marbowNC

I agree with you bout lots of people don't practice enough with there compounds , they wait till time to hunt and shoot a couple times and think there ready , same goes with a rifle for that matter . The way to get kids into archery is start them young , make it fun for them !


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> I agree with you bout lots of people don't practice enough with there compounds , they wait till time to hunt and shoot a couple times and think there ready , same goes with a rifle for that matter . The way to get kids into archery is start them young , make it fun for them !


its also true with trads. In fact bow type has nothing to do with lazy. Lazy is lazy no matter what the weapon


----------



## Tim50

> I have heard that PA used other states data to make the determination *as well as the impact on SRA's *to come to the conclusion


So you don't know if they used the impact from the full inclusion in the SRA's and you do not know how they arrived at their conclusion...YET you still claim it was a lack of science! You do not concider full inclusion in the SRA's enough data? I am tired of the "lack of science" claim! SRA's AND inclusion with a Sundown Law! What more do you want! And add all the facts that the PGC has accumulated and add in the facts from other states....The game commission did their due diligence. Some just refuse to accept it! 



> According to my numbers (This is not a scientific poll) the poll is and has been showing some interesting results.


Sure does! It shows me any poll that allows unlimited votes by by any one user is worthless. Talk about lack of science! Anyone can skew the results if he/she want to take the time to vote all night! 



> It appears that Pa hunters have formulated their opinion and there *is a divide*.


And polls like this only widens the divide. Let the PGC do their job! The crossbow comunity looks forward to the results of this study. One year in the books and it was a rousing success for the supporters of crossbow inclusion. Facts like this past year are the crosbow hunters best friend. No emotion...no personal agendas just cold hard facts! Read 'em & weep!!!


----------



## xbow1

damageinc said:


> Bringing up the rear is a smaller percentage that wants crossbows excluded.


Yes, they're a whisper in the crowd and look silly as heck being against something the majority would like.

There's more to archery hunting than being a good shot using a stick bow.

In my opinion, most anti-hunting archery hunters are simply inexperienced.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Interestingly, there is a online poll for NY in regards to this same issue.While visiting this site and the Excalibur site and the Crossbow Nation site and the Crossbow magazine site and a few others, I see the link to this poll is posted urging people that don't even live in NY to take this poll to spam the results. We all know these results are not legit and mean nothing since this is a legislative issue. Internet polls in which a person and vote multiple times and delete their cookies and vote again are nothing except meaningless fluff. The only thing these polls do is expose the lack of honesty of a certain segment of the population that will publicly advocate cheating on a variety of internet forums so they can later prop up the results of the poll as the voice of NY hunters. :clap: :clap:


In the AT corssbow area, one person posted:

""93% YES ... 2% no which is telling you something about how loud NY Bowhunters Club is screaming to have blocked Inclusion." 

:doh:

While it is interesting to discuss this sort of thing here. The best use of time is spent at your states capital.


----------



## Tim50

Nice to see you back! Glad to see your interested in the crossbow issue in New York & Pennsylvania! But wern't you the one that told us if we were not from Wisconsin we should stay out of their issues? Do as I say not do as I do???


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I'm not in the issue beyond observer. I'm what is known as a "Noticer" I notice things. This time I noticed that every crossbow forum on the web is urging crossbow shooters across America and Canada to falsify the results of the NY poll so they can later claim the results are the voice of the NY hunter. Noticers then have the ability to call BS when those claims are made. Again, this is more a comment on a certain segment of the hunting public more than anything. Even somebody in WI can spot that a mile away.:set1_rolf2:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'm not in the issue beyond observer. I'm what is known as a "Noticer" I notice things. This time I noticed that every crossbow forum on the web is urging crossbow shooters across America and Canada to falsify the results of the NY poll so they can later claim the results are the voice of the NY hunter. Noticers then have the ability to call BS when those claims are made. Again, this is more a comment on a certain segment of the hunting public more than anything. Even somebody in WI can spot that a mile away.:set1_rolf2:


yeah the anti xbow jerk sites never promote people bashing crossbows. THe Petulant Bow Snobs) PBS would never do that on their forum


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Sorry Jim, noticers, notice things. Don't be angry with the guy who exposes this sort of dishonorable behavior. Look within your community that openly deceives. :wink:

Win or lose. Do it with honor. Cheating exposes that segment of the hunting community to what many have known all along. Call names and hope to insult but you have a real life scoundrel on your hands that you will not denounce. very telling indeed. Not at all surprizing but still very telling none the less.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

At the same time, all these forums endorse this sort of dishonorable activity by allowing the threads to exist.

complicit!


----------



## Tim50

> Sorry Jim, noticers, notice things. Don't be angry with the guy who exposes this sort of dishonorable behavior. *Look within your community that openly deceives. *


I have noticed things also in the anti crossbow community. The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania and the NABC posted their "Talking Points about Crossbows"...here are some low lights:



> 3. *Crossbows legalized for use during archery season could more than double the number of hunters participating in the archery-only deer hunt,* according to studies conducted by the Ohio and Arkansas game departments (3). If your state has 400,000 licensed firearms hunters, 160,000 of them may migrate to archery season if crossbows are legalized, according to the Tonkovitch study. Over crowding of public hunting areas could result diminishing the quality of the hunting experience.





> 5. In the hands of a shooter of average ability, crossbows have at least twice the effective range of a conventional bow. For typical hunters-those having firearm or handheld bow experience but who were not competitive shooters, crossbow shooters had an effective range of 64-yards compared to 26-yards for handheld bow shooters (1).





> 21. Crossbow use in archery season is an advertising push of the crossbow manufacturers, facilitated by the Archery Trade Association and other surrogate marketing agents. *No sportsmen’s groups are petitioning for this legalization of crossbows, only the profiteers.* (8)





> 24. Who are the eager, ardent crossbowmen yearning for, petitioning for a hunting season with the archers? Why haven’t we heard from them? Why, because there are no crossbowmen craving a season with bowhunters. *They don’t exist. *(8)





> 28. Crossbowmen are not petitioning for change.
> *Bowhunters are not petitioning for change.* *Sportsmen are not petitioning for change*.
> *Only crossbow manufacturers are petitioning for change *and their motive is profit.





> 32. There must be a line drawn on what constitutes a *primitive **weapon in a primitive weapon season*. Crossbows cross that line in the bowhunting season


So an 80% letoff bow with carbon arrows, shooting a release with fiber optic sights constitutes a "primitive weapon"?? 



> 34. The most fundamental difference between crossbows and conventional bows is that *most modern crossbows are now drawn with a winch *and braced with a rigid stock.


Being the honest "noticer" you feel your are did you notice any misinformation or outright lies in these organizations postings? Yet they speak for the bowhunting community. I notice you are not outraged by misinformation and lies! Should this misinformation stand on these sites? 



> At the same time, all these forums endorse this sort of dishonorable activity by allowing the threads to exist.


And at the same time these organizations say they speak for the bowhunting community? Why would these organization post false information? Did you not notice the LIES??? Please share what you NOTICED about these organizations misleading observations?


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Interestingly, there is a online poll for NY in regards to this same issue.While visiting this site and the Excalibur site and the Crossbow Nation site and the Crossbow magazine site and a few others, I see the link to this poll is posted urging people that don't even live in NY to take this poll to spam the results. We all know these results are not legit and mean nothing since this is a legislative issue. Internet polls in which a person and vote multiple times and delete their cookies and vote again are nothing except meaningless fluff. The only thing these polls do is expose the lack of honesty of a certain segment of the population that will publicly advocate cheating on a variety of internet forums so they can later prop up the results of the poll as the voice of NY hunters. :clap: :clap:
> 
> 
> In the AT corssbow area, one person posted:
> 
> ""93% YES ... 2% no which is telling you something about how loud NY Bowhunters Club is screaming to have blocked Inclusion."
> 
> :doh:
> 
> While it is interesting to discuss this sort of thing here. The best use of time is spent at your states capital.


Nice try at stirring things up but everyone that has a 8th grade education or higher knows that internet polls are totally worthless and the results are not accurate. Guess for some reason you got left out on that fact. :zip:


The observer line borders on a lie. Aren't you a registered lobbyist for WBA in WI? 

BTW I've seen the same on anti-xbow forums. But as a lobbyist I guess that's part of your job to skew facts and stir stuff up huh? :wink: 
And over on the Crossbow forum the post to the Poll is just a one liner that only has the link and nothing more. Thread title is "Crossbow poll in NY outdoor news!!!". Hardly a notice to go spam the poll. 
"Dishonorable" what a joke.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

You will all certainly recall this same thing happening with a recent online Wisconsin poll that was splashed over the pages of many xbow forums. There is clearly a pattern to be *noticed* :wink:

Me thinks the gentlemen doth protest too much.:zip:

A little Billy Shakespeare for ya.

Patriotism for his cause is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

(Samuel Johnson 1791)

Again, as a noticer, I am commenting on how this is being done and NOT about the rightness or wrongness of crossbows. That will be done at state capitals. 

Some would like to portray this as a grass roots movement of hunters but real noticers will know this is a corporately underwritten push for profit. This is about the money and the xbow makers pushing this idea to make more of it. Crossbow makers using people as a means to an end and paying accordingly to increase profits. While this has been often denied, noticers know the truth.


----------



## Tim50

Found this on dictonary.com:

*no·ticer   */ˈnoʊtɪs/ Show Spelled [noh-tis] Show IPA noun, verb, -ticed, -tic·ing. 
–noun 
1. an anti-crossbow troll..
2. an anti-crossbow lobbyist (usually in Wisconsin)
3. one who is narrow minded, avoids facts at all costs, 
4. a "pot" stirrer
5. one who changes his/her identity from forum to form to hide their true agenda

Synonyms: highbrow, name-dropper, pompous ass, pompous person, social climber, stiff, stuffed shirt troll

also see: elitist, troll,


----------



## BigBirdVA

If anyone should know the meaning of "a scoundrel" it would be you. If you were half as witty as you thought you might make a point. But it's all lost on the transparency of your true mission here - and other forums. And that's greed. As simple as it comes.

Profits? Like a new line of compounds every year for every compound bow manufacturer. Or the other tons of items shown at the ATA show. Really is this all you have? Profits, like new $$$ for states desperate for any income to benefit ALL hunters in their cash strapped programs? Profits? Like more numbers in our sport as a whole when the real enemy isn't clad in camo and toting a bow you and a very few of your friends don't approve of.

Purity for an already diluted sport? Compounds did that long ago. Real archery is all but dead. And xbows won't be the last nail in the already closed coffin.

Since you want quotes...........



> Who knows himself a braggart, Let him fear this; for it will come to pass
> That every braggart shall be found an ass.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Now you fellas is getting way to animated and upset over this. I'm not here to rain on your parade. I'm just mentioning what I am noticing. I share this with legislators who always want to know what's behind the push for an idea. They hear from one or two constituents and wonder what is behind the idea. One of their main questions is "Why now?" I just like to inform them that this is all being underwritten by corporate greed without regard for the resource in WI. 

They appreciate learning about many domestic and foreign crossbow makers and that they are spending dollars to fund this idea in WI and that it is a small minority of people in WI that want this and that their actions are being underwritten by the crossbow industry as a front.

Legislators are also noticers so they like to learn that The participation from groups like the ACF (a for profit corporation) is based on financial support they get from the manufacturers. Because of their limited funds, it is necessary they be underwritten by the crossbow manufacturers if they wish groups like ACF to push crossbows to give the appearence of a grass roots movement. They like to know that for an example, Horton Crossbows sponsored the ACF and provided lodging and a booth at the Harrisburg show where they collected approximately 3000 signatures on a petition supporting the inclusions of crossbows during the archery season. or how TenPoint Crossbows underwrote their lodging and booth for three separate Michigan hunting shows where they collected a combined total of over 3000 signatures from that states bowhunters on a petition that was used to help bring a crossbow season to that state and that they have been in Mississippi twice to help the blossoming organization there and how they were funded by Horton in WI to have a booth at a sports show. 

Legislators appreciate learning that corporate greed is paying to support a for profit group like ACF and is what is really behind the push for crossbows and that it is really the smallest of minorities in WI that are wanting crossbows and that they are funded as pawns for $$$. They also appreciate knowing that groups like WBH (70 year old, non-profit) and the Wisconsin Traditional Archers (20 year old , non-proft) have actual citizens in WI and a long and vested presence in our state and they listen to our concerns and those of the thousands and thousands of WBH and WTA (and now other groups) members. That is why I have asked all along that there be a big push for crossbow inclusion in WI and that the more outside entities that are part of the push, the better. That is why I enlist your help here and on many other forums under a variety of names. Thankfully greed will be your undoing. Thanks for all your help. Likewise, they like it when I show them how things like opinion polls are skewed by the crossbow groups to make it look like there is majority support. In the end, I find them coming to us to sort out what is thruth and what is BS. that is what building long lasting relationships with legislators is about. They are not keenly in tune with this issue so they seek out experienced people that they can trust from non-profit groups with 7 decades of involvement. I'm just glad we are there to help them. This way, should they be contacted by the ACF or the WI wing of the ACF, they already know who they are talking to.

Nobody is blaming the ACF and the crossbow industry (but I repeat myself) for trying to maximize profits. That is human nature. Thankfully legislators now understand this and thankfully they care more about our states natural resources and the depleted deer herd and the long standing traditions of the founding state in Bowhunting. I'm just glad there are so many crossbow sites on the web that are so great about freely giving of info that I can use. You guys are awesome. Keep being awesome. We are noticing. :wink:

P.S. thanks to this sites crossbow forum for directing me to a website called long range hunting .com for the PSA TAC15 story. the generosity here, knows no bounds.


----------



## Tim50

Did you also present the NABC ( you are a member of this organization) "Crossbow Talking Points" to your legislative friends? Did you explain how many of those points are outdated and outright lies? Your entitled to lobby whomever you like and PLEASE continue to supply the NABC info to any that will listen in WI! These types of lies & misinformation do more for the crossbow community than any online poll! The legislature will see thru the anti-crossbow movement soon enough! They will look around the US and see inclusion coming to many states. They will question why Wisconsin is so different from Pennsylvania,Texas,Michigan...Why all the doom & gloom that the local anti-crossbow clubs predicted never came to pass! The will realize they have been duped by their local bowhunting organization. They will see the personal agendas within your organization. So lobby your capital all you like because legislaturers are very used to the special interest groups with personal agendas. Crossbows in Wisconsin is not a question the only question is how soon!


----------



## damageinc

You are limited to voting once for 2 different subjects (as it was set up). I am not sure what you mean with what you said unless it isn't functioning properly.



Tim50 said:


> So you don't know if they used the impact from the full inclusion in the SRA's and you do not know how they arrived at their conclusion...YET you still claim it was a lack of science! You do not concider full inclusion in the SRA's enough data? I am tired of the "lack of science" claim! SRA's AND inclusion with a Sundown Law! What more do you want! And add all the facts that the PGC has accumulated and add in the facts from other states....The game commission did their due diligence. Some just refuse to accept it!
> I have never sen any data and a SRA isn't an example of the rest of the state , if it was it wouldn't be a SRA.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure does! It shows me any poll that allows unlimited votes by by any one user is worthless. Talk about lack of science! Anyone can skew the results if he/she want to take the time to vote all night!
> 
> 
> 
> And polls like this only widens the divide. Let the PGC do their job! The crossbow comunity looks forward to the results of this study. One year in the books and it was a rousing success for the supporters of crossbow inclusion. Facts like this past year are the crosbow hunters best friend. No emotion...no personal agendas just cold hard facts! Read 'em & weep!!!


I do not have a personal agenda, I am just trying to gauge PA hunters thoughts on the subject.
I see that you have a strong opinion even if you have little to back it up.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Just finshed reading the long range hunting .com story about the PSA Tac 15. Great stuff. I like his closing line.

_"I will be deer hunting hard with my new PSE TAC 15i crossbow this fall in the Big Horns of northern Wyoming. In fact, in a few days I head out there for another scouting trip. This crossbow will do for the archer what a flat shooting cartridge in a precison rifle does for the long range rifle hunter. It is going to set a new archery hunting accuracy standard for years."_

Thanks you online crossbow foums for all your help. :wink:


----------



## damageinc

Wow, I had no idea. Yes the site can be duped by removing cookies. I guess I am naive sometimes and thought people would answer honestly.



Rancid Crabtree said:


> Interestingly, there is a online poll for NY in regards to this same issue.While visiting this site and the Excalibur site and the Crossbow Nation site and the Crossbow magazine site and a few others, I see the link to this poll is posted urging people that don't even live in NY to take this poll to spam the results. We all know these results are not legit and mean nothing since this is a legislative issue. Internet polls in which a person and vote multiple times and delete their cookies and vote again are nothing except meaningless fluff. The only thing these polls do is expose the lack of honesty of a certain segment of the population that will publicly advocate cheating on a variety of internet forums so they can later prop up the results of the poll as the voice of NY hunters. :clap: :clap:
> 
> 
> In the AT corssbow area, one person posted:
> 
> ""93% YES ... 2% no which is telling you something about how loud NY Bowhunters Club is screaming to have blocked Inclusion."
> 
> :doh:
> 
> While it is interesting to discuss this sort of thing here. The best use of time is spent at your states capital.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Kudos to you. You just became a noticer. :wink:

God Love these folks. They just cant help themslves. Read that long range hunting story by Lee Backus. LOL

Thanks again, crossbow industry and forums like this.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pse-tac-15-15i-10-10i-crossbow-review-1.php


----------



## damageinc

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Interestingly, there is a online poll for NY in regards to this same issue.While visiting this site and the Excalibur site and the Crossbow Nation site and the Crossbow magazine site and a few others, I see the link to this poll is posted urging people that don't even live in NY to take this poll to spam the results. We all know these results are not legit and mean nothing since this is a legislative issue. Internet polls in which a person and vote multiple times and delete their cookies and vote again are nothing except meaningless fluff. The only thing these polls do is expose the lack of honesty of a certain segment of the population that will publicly advocate cheating on a variety of internet forums so they can later prop up the results of the poll as the voice of NY hunters. :clap: :clap:


Can someone give me the location on the web that is advocating cheating on this poll? I'd like to take it to my blog (vs hashing it out here) to expose what might be happening, if it is truly happening. I want to get the facts out there and onto peoples plates.


In the AT corssbow area, one person posted:

""93% YES ... 2% no which is telling you something about how loud NY Bowhunters Club is screaming to have blocked Inclusion." 

:doh:
[/QUOTE]
While it is interesting to discuss this sort of thing here. The best use of time is spent at your states capital. 
[/QUOTE]
Sure- but I don't have an opinion on this yet. I am really looking to see what PA hunters think about what was decided and what the process is\was to enable such a thing, if this was directed toward me.
It amazes me that there is such energy surrounding the subject and little feedback on my blog from voters. Maybe people don't want their names attached to their vote or their agenda in the spotlight. I am not sure or either. I haven't had a single comment on the poll.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 posted from the NABC site:

28. Crossbowmen are not petitioning for change. Bowhunters are not petitioning for change. Sportsmen are not petitioning for change. Only crossbow manufacturers are petitioning for change and their motive is profit.

This is true. While there are a small minority or people in WI pushing for this. The proof is there that this is actually underwritten by the crossbow industry (for profit) and pushed by the ACF (for profit) by seeking pawns to do their bidding so as to bring more money to crossbow makers. As I said, there is nothing wrong with that in theory but now that it's been exposed, legislators like to know these things. Horton, Tenpoint, Excalibure, etc. are creating a false impression by using serogates twice removed to make it look like they are out of the picture. Thankfully, your only leaders can't keep their mouths shut.


----------



## Tim50

You are a pro a diverting away from the issue! We have all seen the YouTube video's of long range shots with the compound also...You are so cock-sure of your Wisconsin position that all hunters of Wi oppose crossbow usage NOT just your little minority organization why are you opposing inclusion? It is VERY evident from your posts that the hunters of WI would ignore the crossbow...so what is the issue. Allow inclusion and make all the crossbow supprters eat their pro inclusion words! If you REALLY believed that ALL Winconsin shared your anti crossbow position crossbow inclusion would be a miserable failure. No one would buy them or hunt with them! Your little minority organization would be proven correct & all your anti crossbow posts would NOW have some validity! Or you can continue to fight crossbow inclusion, pitting hunter against hunter at a time where we need to be united! We all know what the outcome would be and inclusion would only prove you are attempting to force your bowhunting agenda on all hunters. If what you say is true you have nothing to worry about if however you have been selling the hunters & legislature a bill of goods you will be exposed! If you honestly believe you speak for ALL Wisconsin hunters you have nothing to fear and victory would be OH so sweet. You have nothing to worry about you already know the out come......or is THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

If what you say is true[/QUOTE]

No doubts about that. :wink:



Tim50 said:


> If you honestly believe you speak for ALL Wisconsin hunters


I don't and never said I did. That is something you want to believe. Every full inclusion survey or questionnaire in WI bears out what I have have been saying. You just don't like to here it.


----------



## Tim50

Sure- *but I don't have an opinion on this yet*. I am really looking to see what PA hunters think about what was decided and what the process is\was to enable such a thing, if this was directed toward me.
It amazes me that there is such energy surrounding the subject and little feedback on my blog from voters. Maybe people don't want their names attached to their vote or their agenda in the spotlight. I am not sure or either. I haven't had a single comment on the poll.[/QUOTE]



> I see that you have a strong opinion even *if you have little to back it up. *Today 10:56 AM


But it appears you DO have an opinion and an agenda! Maybe no one has posted to your blog because most see it as just another attempt to stir the crossbow inclusion pot! This has been done to death for the past few years. Crossbow are now legal in Pennsylvania. What you & I think about them really does not matter. At the end of 2012 the PGC will have all the FACTS needed to make an educated decision on the possible continuation of crossbow inclusion. The crossbow community welcomes this test & the facts it will produde! This is all we have asked for since day one. If the decision is made in 2012 on the available facts crossbow supporters have nothing to fear. If however personal agenda's are brought into play ignoring FACTS all bets are off! Other states debating inclusion should look at the Pennsylvania model. Three years of inclusion amass facts and make decisions based on those facts not personal agenda's & lobbyist. You should not have to lobby the truth!


----------



## Tim50

Public polls & personal agenda's from lobbyist's should not take the place of sound herd management & facts. So you tap danced around my question. Why not allow a full inclusion showdown and let the TRUE facts make the decision? NO personal agenda's no lobbyist's just hunters hunting & providing cold hard facts to base the crossbow decision on. Are you afraid of the truth?


----------



## damageinc

I really didn't want to stir up anything but it appears that you are (stirred up).
I am not looking to be attacked either and also realize that no matter what is said the legislation is already put in place. I am trying to get a litmus test on what people feel about the issue ignoring what they must abide by now that a little time has passed.I have stated my position on the subject on the poll site.



Tim50 said:


> Sure- *but I don't have an opinion on this yet*. I am really looking to see what PA hunters think about what was decided and what the process is\was to enable such a thing, if this was directed toward me.
> It amazes me that there is such energy surrounding the subject and little feedback on my blog from voters. Maybe people don't want their names attached to their vote or their agenda in the spotlight. I am not sure or either. I haven't had a single comment on the poll.




But it appears you DO have an opinion and an agenda! Maybe no one has posted to your blog because most see it as just another attempt to stir the crossbow inclusion pot! This has been done to death for the past few years. Crossbow are now legal in Pennsylvania. What you & I think about them really does not matter. At the end of 2012 the PGC will have all the FACTS needed to make an educated decision on the possible continuation of crossbow inclusion. The crossbow community welcomes this test & the facts it will produde! This is all we have asked for since day one. If the decision is made in 2012 on the available facts crossbow supporters have nothing to fear. If however personal agenda's are brought into play ignoring FACTS all bets are off! Other states debating inclusion should look at the Pennsylvania model. Three years of inclusion amass facts and make decisions based on those facts not personal agenda's & lobbyist. You should not have to lobby the truth![/QUOTE]


----------



## xbow1

I see rancid is on his way to getting temporarily banned again.

He must make his Superiors at WBA very proud.


----------



## Tim50

xbow1 said:


> He must make his Superiors at WBA very proud.


I'm sure Rancid or Archer or Ron the Lobbyist or whatever alias he uses today has no "superiors"! 
And I am sure the vertical bow manufacters have no interest in this debate? They are lilly white....How about the P&Y "funding" to the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania to support their failed attempt to keep the crossbow inclusion out of Pennsylvania. Are Hoyt & Mathews now non-profit organizations? OR are they afraid that crossbow inclusion MAY make them that way! You need to get you head out of the sand. You state there is a small minority supporting crossbows and a equally small organization against them!

SO Rancid-Archer-Ron the Lobbyist....please respond to my question about a trial full inclusion with a sunset law similar to Pennsylvania! This is your chance to PROVE to the world WI hunters will step up to the plate & overwelmingly reject the crossbow! I have no doubt your little minority organization will reject the crossbow I would be interested to see what the average WI hunter would do without a lobbyist on capital hill spreading misinformation! Think about it full inclusion and the hunters of WI reject it! What a feather in your anti crossbow cap! OR full inclusion and the hunters of WI accept the crossbow....I guess that would be a stake in your heart! You have NOTHING to lose & everything to gain! Let the actual hunters of Wisconsin decide this issue not capital hill lobbyist! It appears you are more comfortable with the legislators making the decision than the actual hunters....Propose this to the legislators at your next lunch...that I am sure you all go Dutch!!!


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> The proof is there that this is actually underwritten by the crossbow industry (for profit) and pushed by the ACF (for profit) by seeking pawns to do their bidding so as to bring more money to crossbow makers. As I said, there is nothing wrong with that in theory but now that it's been exposed, legislators like to know these things. Horton, Tenpoint, Excalibure, etc. are creating a false impression by using serogates twice removed to make it look like they are out of the picture.


Much like a "lobbyist"? Say for example say you travel ohhhh 135 miles one way ( 270 miles round trip) to address some legislators in support of a special interest group he/her represents! Would a lobbyist or a serogate possibily eat during this journey? Put fuel in his auto? Possibily stay over night on occasion? Would this serogate expect reinbursed for these types of expenses or do lobbyist do this sort of thing out of the goodness of his/her heart? Would or could a lobbyist at any point possibily benefit from these 270 mile trips and his/her capital hill connections? Would or could a small minority hunting organization with some special interest or agenda possibily pay or barter such services? I just wonder how this "lobbyist" stuff works! 270 miles round trip 5 hours in the car all day on Capital Hill twisting arms Monday thru Friday during session all for free and out of his/her own pocket! Hummmmm


----------



## BigBirdVA

damageinc said:


> Wow, I had no idea. Yes the site can be duped by removing cookies. I guess I am naive sometimes and thought people would answer honestly.


All polls like that are really useless in getting any kind of working ot valuable info. The only ones that come close are polls that you register with an email and you get a one time unique key or token to answer and the key is then done. The idea is no one is going to get but so many email accounts. The flaw is a lot of people are afraid of spam and don't want to give an email.

I don't know what your purpose is with it but no organization or group is going to take it as accurate.


----------



## marbowNC

BigBirdVAReal archery is all but dead. And xbows won't be the last nail in the already closed coffin.
Do you think Archery is dead ? I see more young people and women getting into archery now more than ever , the schools is really got involved here with archery . Archery is not dead . And crossbows isn't the lord of bows that has came to save the sport !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

marbowNC said:


> BigBirdVAReal archery is all but dead. And xbows won't be the last nail in the already closed coffin.
> Do you think Archery is dead ? I see more young people and women getting into archery now more than ever , the schools is really got involved here with archery . Archery is not dead . And crossbows isn't the lord of bows that has came to save the sport !!


Real archery as in numbers keeping traditional archery alive. Compound is not traditional and all it does is allow the masses to easily hunt during bow season. That's what's so funny to see people so worried about a few when it's already been saturated by thousands that got in for the same reasons they claim should be used to keep xbows out.


----------



## cynic

BigBirdVA said:


> Real archery as in numbers keeping traditional archery alive. Compound is not traditional and all it does is allow the masses to easily hunt during bow season. That's what's so funny to see people so worried about a few when it's already been saturated by thousands that got in for the same reasons they claim should be used to keep xbows out.


I constantly see people claiming that the xbow is okay to get women and children involve.. I don't see any women shooting the xbow however I see a good many toting compounds.. Was the compound designed to get women onto archery? IMO a xbow is not for women, most women don't have the strentgh to cock one in a stand safely, they won't be bothered with using a crank and if the first shot goes afoul they will be too time consuming.. IMO the compound makes for a better choice for todays women hunters. The compound is just easier to use


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> BigBirdVAReal archery is all but dead. And xbows won't be the last nail in the already closed coffin.
> Do you think Archery is dead ? I see more young people and women getting into archery now more than ever , the schools is really got involved here with archery . Archery is not dead . And crossbows isn't the lord of bows that has came to save the sport !!


Good news-next year Hoyt and the NAA are going to put some big bucks into the US Nationals-if you shoot a hoyt bow you could win 10 grand in men's compound. Now next year will be the Hit.miss target at 50M so those dime sized groups can make you some REAL MONEY in what might be sort of real archery.:wink:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50, You really do not understand the lobbying game. Nice try with the Try full inclusion. I think we will pass. Our laws our perfect. :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Tim50, You really do not understand the lobbying game. Nice try with the Try full inclusion. I think we will pass. Our laws our perfect. :wink:


You will pass because you KNOW the hunters of WI will welcome the crossbow. Then why the need to lobby? In your opinion you have perfect laws to keep out the hunters YOU don't want in. Why the fear of crossbows? If you really thought the REAL hunters of WI would not accept the crossbow you would not fight so hard to keep them out. Or as you said is this just about $$$$...this time yours. Would crossbow inclusion put a lobbyist out of work? Is this more about personal agenda than what the hunters of WI want? You have a lot personally at stake on this issue. And little has to do with be hunting! And you talk about the crossbow companies! At least they promote their companies AND support hunters. They do not hide their true agenda.....Why the name change from forum to forum? Nothing about you is what it appears to be! Do you also let the legislators know about YOUR personal agenda with crossbow inclusion. If crossbows are included why would a small minority organization need to employ a lobbyist? And I do understand YOUR lobbying game....keep the hunters of WI divided on the crossbow issue & you stay employed. Pretty clear now why you jump from state to state opposing the crossbow...your game is greed!


----------



## Tim50

So Rancid-Archer-Ron the Lobbyist are you paid by the WBH to lobby the WI legislature? The law states you only have to register *IF *you are paid by an organization to lobby. Are the WBH dues & fund raisers going to pay your salary? So you are underwritten by WBH (for YOUR profit) and you have a vested interest in this issue that is not about the hunters of Wisconsin, or the status of the herd....You are selling your services. What if the ACF offerd you a better deal. Would you lobby FOR crossbows? :thumb: Are lobbyists the oldest profession??


Wisconsin Lobbyist Law:
You have an obligation to obtain a lobbying license from the Government Accountability Board, *and
the organization that pays you is required to authorize you as its lobbyist, if you attempt to influence
state legislation1 or an administrative rule2 on behalf of a business or organization that employs you or
from which you receive a payment (other than reimbursement of expenses) *and you communicate with
a state official or legislative employee about such matters on 5 or more days within a six month
reporting period.

But none of this applies if you are just a hunter talking to your legislator. SO which is it an average WI hunter or a paid registered lobbyist available for hire? Inquiring minds want to know. I am looking forward to the tap dance!

Your tag line needs a little update:

*Rancid Crabtree*
Always watchful, vigilant
As long as the check clears....


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Tim50, You really do not understand the lobbying game. Nice try with the Try full inclusion. I think we will pass. Our laws our perfect. :wink:


We understand the game all too well. The game is lies and half truths and using the exception as the norm. Same game that kept xbows in the back room for years. Guess what? Games over! Words out and it scares the heck out of a few. :mg:

Laws as you know can be changed in an instant. That's why you're running around trying to save what you claim should be archery. As you see each year a few more are added in. Just a matter of time until your turn gets here.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50, as I stated, you are not understanding this. Couple that with your incorrect assumptions and I can see where you are getting all worked up over something you are not grasping. Perhaps, the fault lays at my feet if I led to to think something that is not true. I have explained this on a few occasions and even posted this link more than once but I will do it again if it helps.

http://ethics.state.wi.us/scripts/currentSession/oel.asp?PrinID=4093&start=WI&start2=B

Upon reading the info at the link provided, you will see who the WBH lobbyist is and who the legislative Liaison is. My name is Ron Kulas. I am not a lobbyist. I am a legislative liaison for WBH. I am a volunteer. Like so many people on our board, we volunteer our time. If you look closely, you will see the name of our lobbyist and the confusion might stem from the fact that we share the same first name and last initial. 

You correctly posted:

Wisconsin Lobbyist Law:

*You have an obligation to obtain a lobbying license from the Government Accountability Board *

WBH has in fact paid this bi-annual fee.

*And the organization that pays you is required to authorize you as its lobbyist, if you attempt to influence state legislation if

1 or an administrative rule

2 on behalf of a business or organization that employs you or from which you receive a payment (other than reimbursement of expenses) and you communicate with a state official or legislative employee about such matters on 5 or more days within a six month
reporting period.*

This is correct of our lobbyist.

I am a conduit from the members to our lobbyist and occasionally to legislators in matters of governmental relations and issue advocacy. While our lobbyist is a WBH life member (and has been for a long time) and a bow hunter (who tends to enjoy traditional archery and bowhunting) he is not as in tune with the crossbow issue as myself and members of the board. We act on behalf of and at the enjoyment of our members when we set policy and take stances for the org. We also determine the course of action. From there, we work with our governmental relations and issue advocacy person to plot the course for how to be the most effective when working with legislators. 

My efforts are strictly volunteer. The only compensation I receive is mileage (if I bother to turn it in. many times I do not and simply eat the expense) Our lobbyist has his office on the capital square which is short walking distance to the capital allowing him ready access to the legislature. 

The super majority of or members support the position on crossbows ( 80% as surveyed this spring) The board is bound by that to carry out the wishes of the members. Our full board believes in the position on crossbows. As such, our lobbyist (who is also a member) also believes in the mission. This upsets you but the membership has spoken and drives our actions.


----------



## Tim50

> The super majority of or members support the position on crossbows ( 80% as surveyed this spring) The board is bound by that to carry out the wishes of the members. Our full board believes in the position on crossbows. As such, our lobbyist (who is also a member) also believes in the mission. This upsets you but the membership has spoken and drives our actions.


Your organization has a duty to support the majority of its membership. That is not at issue here. You speak for a small special interest group with an anti crossbow agenda. My issue is your assumption you are speaking for all the hunters of Wisconsin. Your attempts to dictate what the hunters of Wicsonsin can hunt with is my issue. You do what is best for YOUR little minority organization but you do not speak for the entire hunting community. There are many hunting issues facing hunters and your little minority speaial interest group chooses to use organization funds to pay a lobbyist and your expenses to further divide the hunting community. Speak for your little organizations personal agenda but do not misrepresent to the legislators that you speak for the VAST majority of hunters? Spend the resources of your little organization as you wish..misinformation & lies has been the calling card for organizations like yours in other states why should WI be any different!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> Your organization has a duty to support the majority of its membership. That is not at issue here. You speak for a small special interest group with an anti crossbow agenda.


Not true. 70 years ago, WBH was not formed or founded as an anti crossbow org with an anti crossbow agenda. You don’t understand our mission so you like to made broad in incorrect assumptions. In recent years, WBH has taken a position on the issue of crossbows but it is just one stance the org has take, You would incorrectly hope to make that the defining position of the org but you would be wrong. It is just a stance taken to a current event. 



Tim50 said:


> My issue is your assumption you are speaking for all the hunters of Wisconsin.


That has never been the case and I have stated such a thing. Again, you like to paint with a broad and over reaching brush. At the same time, I have explained that our state’s DNR has surveyed bow hunters and the majority opposes full inclusion. Our own inter-WBH survey shows the same thing. Every time, the question of fiull inclusion gets asked, it is rejected by the majority (be it WBH members or non members) 




Tim50 said:


> Your attempts to dictate what the hunters of Wicsonsin can hunt with is my issue.


Here again, you are mistaken. Our members dictate to us how to carry out their wishes. Not the other way around. The majority of the random, rank and file bow hunter that is not a WBH member, oppose full inclusion but they are unaffiliated with nobody to speak for them except the results of the 1020 survey. Bowhunters are dictating their wishes to us, not the other way around.



Tim50 said:


> you do what is best for YOUR little minority organization but you do not speak for the entire hunting community.


I thought you just said we did? Or at least that we hope to? I think you better understand it now.



Tim50 said:


> There are many hunting issues facing hunters and your little minority speaial interest group chooses to use organization funds to pay a lobbyist and your expenses to further divide the hunting community.


Yes, there are many issues facing WI hunters. At the same time, we have a bowhunter defense fund that members contribute to which acts as the funding center for the very actions they instruct us to defend against. Currently, crossbow inclusion is where we spend those funds. That is what the members want and they have told us.



Tim50 said:


> Speak for your little organizations personal agenda but do not misrepresent to the legislators that you speak for the VAST majority of hunters?



Again, both WBH’s own internal survey and the DNR’s survey show the majority of bow hunters oppose full inclusion. That data shows the majority opinion so there is no need to say that we speak for the majority. We let the DNR results speak for themselves and we relay the results of our own internal polling.




Tim50 said:


> Spend the resources of your little organization as you wish..misinformation & lies has been the calling card for organizations like yours in other states why should WI be any different!


You do not get to say how WBH expends resources. You are not a member. Since you are so fond of using the term “Little” , you ought not fear such a “Little” org. Surely, such a “little” org cant have much effect. :wink:

Your attempts to insult mean nothing at the end of the day. They only serve to make you feel better while you are powereless.


----------



## awshucks

> You do not get to say how WBH expends resources. You are not a member. Since you are so fond of using the term “Little” , you ought not fear such a “Little” org. Surely, such a “little” org cant have much effect.


I'd say a membership of less than 3% of Wi bowhunters is mighty little, lol.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Why 3% ???? Isn't that the number of stick bow hunters there? Errr......... I mean whinny stick bow hunters there. :wink: 

Just like I said 6,500 doesn't represent the state. And if they can only muster up part of their own numbers then it goes down to even less. More like under 2%. As they'll find out 2% doesn't and won't tell the rest how to spend their recreation time.


----------



## Tim50

I stated you can spend your organizations money anyway you wish! If you chose to fight fellow hunters with your organizations funds rather that fund youth programs or other true hunting related programs that is your call...By your own admission the hunters of WI have spoken and they do not want crossbows. Why is your organization wasting one cent on a non-issue? Organizations usually do not spend resources on issues that do not directly affect them or they feel is a threat. You would like us to believe that if inclusion took place tomorrow in WI the hunters would not take advantage of this opportunity! It sounds good on paper but we both know you argued the same point in Michigan and see what happened. I do not lose sleep because of the Wisconsin crossbow issue. Just be aware you are on the clock! Throw more of your organizations hard earned funds into the anti crossbow black hole when I am sure they could be put to much better use..your money your choice continute to divide hunters....by your own admission 1 in 5 of your own members do not support your stand...and that number too will grow. You can delay it BUT you cannot stop it!!! TICK-TICK-TICK!!!!


----------



## Tim50

> Again, both WBH’s own internal survey and the DNR’s survey show the *majority of bow hunters *oppose full inclusion.


Majority?? 51% 99% Also you stated the majority of "bowhunters"... was this poll open to all WI registered hunters? Is this lobbyist speak for misinformation....to support the minority stance? This is a hunting question it should not be left up to only one segment of the hunting community to decide for the majority of hunters. I realize you & the WBH feel minority rules but outside your little organizations bubble all hunters care and should be involved in the decision making! Your little organizations bubble is springing some leaks! Do Lobbyist get overtime.....your going to need it! TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## rattus58

BigBirdVA said:


> Why 3% ???? Isn't that the number of stick bow hunters there? Errr......... I mean whinny stick bow hunters there. :wink:
> 
> Just like I said 6,500 doesn't represent the state. And if they can only muster up part of their own numbers then it goes down to even less. More like under 2%. As they'll find out 2% doesn't and won't tell the rest how to spend their recreation time.


If a "whiney" stickbow hunter complains about a crossbow and not the compound, that "Whineyac" is a perpetuating a form of fraud and shouldn't be considered any kind of credible voice.

Much Aloha,

:beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Boys, boys boys. I love the misplaced passion. I really do. All the rage and hand ringing from 5 diff states (outside of WI) Don't fret. All is being handled.

Tim50, you are becoming a noticer. You are correct that 3% is a small amount. Did you happen to notice a state that has more?? Did you notice a state in which a crossbow shooter org makes up even half that? Let me know when you do. :wink:

I will gladly take 3% that is affiliated, active, mobilized and passionate over 97% that is disinterested, apathetic and uninvolved any day of the week. Keep trying to make your points. mix in a few insults, call some names. It means zip but is good for a laugh! Some things are too important to be left to chance and we have things in order. Our meetings are effective and making great points with policy makers. Our deer herd is greatly depressed and we have angry hunters urging the state to take steps to reduce the deer harvest. We are headed to the P&Y headquarters to meet with the fine folks from the NABC, and several other WI based hunting orgs are getting on board. Having a great time, wish you were here.


----------



## Tim50

> *We are headed to the P&Y headquarters to meet with the fine folks from the NABC*, and several other WI based hunting orgs are getting on board. Having a great time, wish you were here.


That sez it all!!! Glad I'm NOT there....Remember..TICK-TICK-TICK!!!


----------



## awshucks

> We are headed to the P&Y headquarters to meet with the fine folks from the NABC,


Maybe you and Brust can split the gas money. Loved the 5 state thingy on a Pa thread, btw.

Tick, tick, tick..............


Priceless!


----------



## missedabiggun

*Rancid Crabtree*

As long as the WBH is meeting with Pope and Young, NABC and other Wisconsin-based hunting organizations...and you will be discussing new ways to turn hunter against hunter....make sure that you include your trustworthy Wisconsin DNR and their new partners in dividing hunters, the HSUS....

what a great state you have there....no wonder Favre left your one and only successful professional sports franchise...I'm sure he only hunts Mississippi...they've not taken money from the enemy....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

awshucks said:


> Maybe you and Brust can split the gas money. Loved the 5 state thingy on a Pa thread, btw.
> 
> Tick, tick, tick..............
> 
> 
> Priceless!


Yes, I will be meeting Mike and we will be driving to MN together. He also sits on the WBH board and is passionate about this issue. ;-)


----------



## missedabiggun

*Rancid Crabtree*

why don't you ever respond to MY posts? Whatsa matter? No defense for your 'sellout' wildlife officials in the land of cheese? I can answer that for you...there is no defense for a DNR that sleeps with the enemy!!!!

Honestly, the WBH and the Wisconsin DNR deserve each other. Way to promote hunter unity!!!!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

missedabiggun said:


> why don't you ever respond to MY posts?


The honest truth is most of them are a bit odd or bordering on silly. The other reason is because your post contained no questions, just comments that dont warrant a reply. That and you said you answered it yourself.


----------



## missedabiggun

*nice dodge....*

But the real reason is you have no defense for a corrupt DNR...no need to respond...you'll offer nothing of value.....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

No, what I said pretty much covered it perfectly. :wink:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> No, what I said pretty much covered it perfectly. :wink:


Its gonna be fun watching you decompensate when you have to share the woods with thousands of crossbow hunters


----------



## Jim C

missedabiggun said:


> But the real reason is you have no defense for a corrupt DNR...no need to respond...you'll offer nothing of value.....


He's a greedy troll who uses his position to spew lies about xbows


----------



## Tim50

So how did P&Y money and the NABC work out in Pennsylvania!! As Ben Franklin a fellow PA hunter once said: "If you lay down with dogs your get up with fleas"... After that meeting you may need dipped!!! TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## BigBirdVA

> We are headed to the P&Y headquarters to meet with the fine folks from the NABC, and several other WI based hunting orgs are getting on board. Having a great time, wish you were here.


Here's one for you. Poop & Dung had some event they have and were giving away or auctioning off some hunts. Anyway I called a couple of the places ( ranches ) and asked if I won the P&Y hunt could I use my xbow there? They said no problem bring it on down. So how about that for loyalty? Sponsors and "supporters" could care less what P&Y thinks - just come hunt. Gee they get it. Too bad the rest don't. 

Still you have to love the irony of it all. Win a P&Y hunt and take your xbow to it. :wink:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Sorry folks. It's been made clear that this is not a grass roots movement in WI but is rather a perfect example of corporate greed without regard for the situation in our state. Thankfully all full inclusion surveys show the real opinions of the bowhunting public. Legislators can spot this a mile away.


----------



## xbow1

Jim C said:


> Its gonna be fun watching you decompensate when you have to share the woods with thousands of crossbow hunters


He'll lie about that too. 

I can hear it now....We decided to let crossbow hunters into the archery season. You guys don't have to thank us, just sign up to our club.

Bring your wallet! :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> It's been made clear that *this is not a grass roots movement in WI but is rather a perfect example of corporate greed *without regard for the situation in our state.


Exactly...outside organizations getting involved in the workings of WI! Yet the WBH has invited P&Y and the NABC into the fray! So you deamonize the crossbow companies for doing the SAME thing you are doing! The crossbow companies are also representing the hunters of WI giving them an option! The crossbow community is not trying to "exclude" anyone because of their choice of weapon. This is America...( outside WI!! LOL) WI hunters do not have to accept that option BUT.....Your position is to deny options to the hunters and you want a small minority special interest group dictate to the masses. This so called corporate greed defense has been tried and lost in states before! (PA-MI-NC-Ok-TX.....) This may work in the short term...but it will fail!!! TICK-TICK-TICK



> Legislators can spot this a mile away.


Exactly and when they see the same tried & true anti crossbow misinformation & lies they will come around. You MAY have them buffaloed today BUT they will come around. Surrounding states allow inclusion...they see the outlandish claims from the NABC that have NEVER come to pass...I have faith in the judicial system...they will realize they have been duped & they will "hopefully" remember who did the duping!!!!...TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Sorry folks. *It's been made clear that *this is not a grass roots movement in WI.....


By who? The lobbyist of a small special interest group with the intrest of the organization that pays him (WBH..) What about the hunters of WI....your correct the legislators will spot this a mile away.....TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> I have faith in the judicial system.



Good gravy man. The judicial system????? This will go through the legislative branch. The judicial system is not part of this. LOL


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Those discussing crossbows with their legislators will want to include this info. :wink:


http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pse-tac-15-15i-10-10i-crossbow-review-1.php


----------



## xbow1

Tim50 said:


> What about the hunters of WI....your correct the legislators will spot this a mile away.....TICK-TICK-TICK


Yes, the legislators are used to people who consistently distort their words in an effort to push their own personal agenda under the the guise of "It's what everybody else wants".

That's what politicians do for a living. They've long ago learned to look past what *appears* to be true and look at what's really going on. They have to be thinking that rancid doth protest too much. He's actually helping the cause by being sooo against crossbows.

*Rancid has done more to publicize crossbow hunting than any other person on the internet.*

For that, rancid...we thank you!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

It's the least I can do. I'm all about educating policy makers. :wink:


http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=gear&thread=1174&page=1


----------



## marbowNC

LOL... The crossbow shooters can't say that there not as acurate now !!! I found out some interesting facts today , wish I had away of puting it on here : At all the meeting that the NCWRC had about the new regulation changes , everyone of the meetings was full of people against the use of crossbows during archery season but yet it passed ! How is the majority is against this but yet still went through ?! Money ?! Personal agenda ?! Who knows ! To bad these people don't get elected in , I belive come nov. they would be looking for new jobs !!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

It's known that the Crossbow Manufacturers are funding this push to boost profits without regard for each state's situation. That is not hard to explain to legislators. The trick is to inform them of it in advance of if hapening in your state. :wink:

It is meant to look like private citizens are in favor when it is really, the for profit types behind it and funding it.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> It's known that the Crossbow Manufacturers are funding this push to boost profits without regard for each state's situation. That is not hard to explain to legislators. The trick is to inform them of it in advance of if hapening in your state. :wink:
> 
> It is meant to look like private citizens are in favor when it is really, the for profit types behind it and funding it.


yeah, those compound companies didn't push for compound legalization out of monetary concerncs.

are you a marxist as well as being an idiot when it comes to bowhunters:wink:


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> LOL... The crossbow shooters can't say that there not as acurate now !!! I found out some interesting facts today , wish I had away of puting it on here : At all the meeting that the NCWRC had about the new regulation changes , everyone of the meetings was full of people against the use of crossbows during archery season but yet it passed ! How is the majority is against this but yet still went through ?! Money ?! Personal agenda ?! Who knows ! To bad these people don't get elected in , I belive come nov. they would be looking for new jobs !!


Hey I have good news for you. Next year HOYT is offering EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS to the guy who wins the compound championship at the National target event. Of course all you need is a hoyt bow because those dime sized groups will carry the day. And the USArchery is offering 2K. so you can make 10K

that a bunch of morons are against xbows because they are greedy little whiners should matter not.

let me ask you a question-when crossbows become the dominant bow choice in a state would you be OK if crossbows voted to ban your type of bow?

nothing will outlaw bowhunting faster than a public that thinks bowhunters wound lots of animals

you anti xbow clowns appear to hate accuracy.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Those discussing crossbows with their legislators will want to include this info. :wink:
> 
> 
> http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pse-tac-15-15i-10-10i-crossbow-review-1.php


Personal opinion of use of a target weapon on a bench or controlled shooting situation. We've all seen that guy - Byron - or something hit crap with a stick bow at 100 yd + on TV - real proof of what a stick bow can do. So is he the norm or is that hunting? No. Take your skewed crap back to the drawing board. 

You go sneak around on the xbows forums. How many TAC -15 have you heard of? 1, maybe 2? They're a niche weapon and make up way less than 1%. Yes at $2k the WI woods will be full of them. Heck they represent less of the percentage of xobws than your Organization does bow hunters in WI. That's got to be a low number to get below your org's % of representation. :wink:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

It would appear that these thngs are becoming mainstream and at less cost than you hope to lead people to think. 

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...t20024&parentType=index&indexId=cat20024&rid=


http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gear&action=display&thread=1174


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> It would appear that these thngs are becoming mainstream and at less cost than you hope to lead people to think.
> 
> http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...t20024&parentType=index&indexId=cat20024&rid=
> 
> 
> http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gear&action=display&thread=1174


Really? A listing in Cabelas means everyone is buying one? And that's a different model. Not the one in the article. It's 350 fps not 400. So now all PSE xbows are 100 yard deer killing machines? Again deception on your part. Taking a different model and trying to claim it's the same as another. The other link and article is just another basher at work. Nothing new or different going on there. 

Regardless 100 yards from a bench does not equate to the same effective range for hunting. Compounds and stick bows in the hands of the right person and in a target setting have been doing that for years. But because it's an xbow in the same setting that makes it bad. Still have string jump to contend with on deer. And rarely in my hunting situations do I even have a clear shot at anything past 30-40. I hunt the woods and you're not shooting far in what I hunt in. I've had lots of deer pass by me too far to shoot out in the open. Again string jump cancels out range in hunting. Targets don't jump the string. 

But it does show how low you'll go to grasp at anything to justify your loosing argument. 



Don't forget to show 'em this 160 yd compound shot. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2McOMJLgQ&feature=PlayList&p=831780FB33E5FC84&playnext_from=PL&index=8


----------



## Redclub

Shucks I remember back in the 60's a couple of fella's (Harry Drake,Chris Wildenberg) could shoot an arrow a mile and that was with wood arrows
Redclub


----------



## Tim50

Remember the anti crossbow types prey on the uninformed. An informed hunter is one of the anti's worst nightmares! They will show the PSE bow with all the hype. It is a nitch bow. I doubt any crossbow can compete with a shooter the likes of MarboNC shooting dime size groups. Should his compound be dumbed down to make him LESS accurate? WE are talking a hunting tool here. Whle this hunter shoots his compound at 185 yards I am sure he does not hunt at those ranges. He is just shooting & enjoying his weapon. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs

Ther is another fairy tale of a hunter from WI just picking up a stock crossbow and shooting a great group at 100 yds. The thrust of this test was to show an out of the box example of accuracy. If I am not mistaken this same shooter was challenged to do the same test with people observing thes test. This would be a no brainer....pick up the crossbow you just shot & wrote an article about accuracy about & duplicate your results. A coup for the anti crossbow types. It is my understanding this writer has refused to participate in a recreation of his shooting prowess. WHY? Back up your anti claims with facts....to all who will watch. Prove your so called facts. As of yet this shooter has shrunk from the competition spotlight. Make a statement & back it up with facts. Something the anti crossbow types have failed to do. 

http://www.nabowhuntingcoalition.com/Bowhunting_Issues/Final_crossbow_test.htm

It is interesting to note that this questionable crossbow test is posted on the VERY anti crossbow NABC site. And to further tie a little bow on this piece of misinformation the shooter in a fellow by the name of Mike Brust! Is this the same Mike Brust who is the VP of the Wicsonsin Bowhunters Association? Hummmmmmmm Interesting! A hunter makes a claim refuses to replicate this so called test. And now he shows up as a high ranking official of an anti crossbow organization with strong ties to another anti crossbow organization the NABC! A reather neat little package of misinformation and possible lies! If Mr Brust makes this claim why the reluctance to repeat his findings? Questionable ethics here! Mr Brust had the chance to prove his findings BUT refused to do his test under the watchful eye of other parties. Why doesn't yourl lobbyist take Mr Brust to capital hill & show the world his findings. I'm sure they could find a 100yd range somewhere. Prove his claims!! Ya...that will happen....Mr Brust wrote a review of questionable facts he refuses to support. Maybe the legislators in Wisconsin need to be notified in advance of some questionable information they are being supplied? I am sure they would love to see a demonstration of Mr Brust's crossbow prowess! Another opportunity missed by WBH because they cannot support the lies of one of their own elected officials. If Mr Brust refuses to perform this test in an "open" fourm he should be forced to step down because of this ethics violation. Or is misinformation a valuable prerequisit for this organization....A storied hunting organization (Wisconsin Bowhunters Assocation) being run by liers....What a shame....Please do not debate this here do it onthe range for all to see. With Mr Brust's VP position the prize. His reputation ( and that of the WBH) is at stake here. I guess his little white lie about crossbows did not seem like a big deal back in 2005...Grab your Durango and do it! ( remember his stunt was performed with 2005 equipment so don't pull out some 2010 equipment)Let see it!!!. What's that old saying " put up or shut up"!..............TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Such animation. LOL

There is no need to go through the motions when it has already been done for us and well documented in an easy to read format. Thanks crossbow supporters and AT. Keep being awesome. :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Such animation. LOL
> 
> There is no need to go through the motions when it has already been done for us and well documented in an easy to read format. Thanks crossbow supporters and AT. Keep being awesome. :wink:


In other words Mr Brust cannot replicate his feat! Just more tall tales you cannot support with cold hard facts. This is why crossbows are growing. The crossbow community provided cold hard "provable" facts for anyone to research. The anti's entire position is based in hearsay, emotion, misinformation & lies. If the anti-crossbow community really believed Mr Brust they would trot him out & didplay just how easy the crosbow is per Mr Brust's article. You know he cannot so he has declined any opportunities to prove his lie. The original founders of a "once" proud hunting organization must be very proud of the fact they have a liar as their VP. Mr Brust...please prove everyone wrong if not for your legacy then for the organization (WBH) you represent. Step up & do the right thing! Show SOME integerity....IF there is any left on the anti crossbow side. It is a shame how this issue has dragged *once* good people and organizations to this point. And people like you support these lies....Nothing good comes from lies. You will eventually learn this.....TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

There is no need to go through the motions when it has already been done for us and well documented in an easy to read format. Thanks crossbow supporters and AT. Keep being awesome. :wink:

Such a test with the latest and greatest makes far more sense because I doubt anybody can even purchase the xbow used in that test. Why test historical weaponry when its not even available? The reviews we are seeing from PSE are perfect and require no duplication of effort on our part and Best of all......................................................... Wait for it ..........................................................The pro crossbow folks are doing it for us which removes the specter of doubt that it's just the bowhunting groups faking something to prove a point. It's great when a plan comes together and it's even better when somebody proves your points for you. Keep being awesome. :set1_applaud:

The icing on the cake is when the only reply you get from one policy maker after reading that review and other data is "WOW!, they want to use that for bowhunting?"


----------



## BigBirdVA

It's just another example of selective reasoning in action. They take the parts they can twist and dismiss the rest. But hey who can blame them? It's worked this long. Change a few facts, make up a few others and keep right on selling the same tired old story.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Amen Brotha! Thanks to sites like this and all the other xbow sites we monitor for being so free with the info. They just can't help themselves. Heck, they even write about how the xbow mfgrs are funding the whole thing. 


Thanks for your support. :wink:


----------



## Bloodbath

These crossbow threads are hilarious! Why do a bunch of people that don't live in Wisconsin care how we manage our hunting seasons? Our herd isn't in any condition right now to have a bunch of yahoos running into the woods with crossbows and putting even more pressure on OUR herd. Why can't you pro-croosbow guys grasp the fact that most hunters in this state are against changing our laws as they currently stand? Nobody is excluded from our archery season under these laws.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Prepare to be insulted and called all manner of names. After all, your just a WI voter/hunter with actual skin in this game. The foreign entities mean to tell you how our laws need to be. It would be even worse if you are an evil WBH member.


----------



## Bloodbath

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Prepare to be insulted and called all manner of names. After all, your just a WI voter/hunter with actual skin in this game. The foreign entities mean to tell you how our laws need to be. It would be even worse if you are an evil WBH member.


Would being a member make me the boogy man? I won't be told how I should view crossbows by some outsiders. I think what I think and if they don't like it, to bad! They can insult me all they want. Personal attacks are the last resort of the desperate!


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Such a test with the latest and greatest makes far more sense because I doubt anybody can even purchase the xbow used in that test. *Why test historical weaponry when its not even available?*


To prove Mr Brust lied 5 years ago! And he refused to preform the test again under a controled enviorment. It is a constant thread for you anti crossbow type! Lies & misinformation. To prove you have no creditability! Yet you embrace the lies & elect liars to run your anti crossbow organization. The crossbow community welcomes ALL hunters we have these sites because we are open to the truth. We debate with facts not emotion & lies. We do not employ lobbyist to pass misinformation & lies to to the hunting public. We have nothing to hide! Contact ANY crossbow organization & they will supply you with any info you request! We are an honest & factual group. The same cannot be said for you! You yourself use different alias's on different sites. TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> These crossbow threads are hilarious! Why do a bunch of people that don't live in Wisconsin care how we manage our hunting seasons? Our herd isn't in any condition right now to have a bunch of yahoos running into the woods with crossbows and putting even more pressure on OUR herd. Why can't you pro-croosbow guys grasp the fact that most hunters in this state are against changing our laws as they currently stand? Nobody is excluded from our archery season under these laws.


pretty sad, some clown calling other hunters Yahoos. Nothing more than another greedy selfish snob


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

See bloodbath, those sorts of attacks and name calling. :wink:

Hows that for predictable? :set1_rolf2:

Tim50, You can focus on the past and label what you are certain is a "Got-cha" moment. You go with that. while I focus on the here and now. Keep being awesome. :lol:


----------



## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> These crossbow threads are hilarious! Why do a bunch of people that don't live in Wisconsin care how we manage our hunting seasons? Our herd isn't in any condition right now to have a bunch of yahoos running into the woods with crossbows and putting even more pressure on OUR herd. Why can't you pro-croosbow guys grasp the fact that most hunters in this state are against changing our laws as they currently stand? Nobody is excluded from our archery season under these laws.



If you read thru the anti crossbow rants here you are the FIRST to present 
a defense based on the herd. Your state can make that decision and deer population could be a valid concern. The emotional lies/retoric presented by Rancid deal strictly with the weapon. If your Game Commission makes a decision based on herd and harvest totals at least they are dealing in provable facts. NOT emotion & greed! All we have asked is decisions be based on facts not emotion & special interest groups or lobby groups. And decisions in each state does effect what happens in other states....Rancid has also pointed out no one in WI wants crossbow...SO why does he fight so hard & employee a lobbyist. Allow inclusion & following Rancid's loggic it will be ignored by the hunters of WI! But we all know that will not be the case. Rancid knows the truth he just will not share it wuth the hunters of WI. TRUTH is not his or his organizations storng suit!!..TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> See bloodbath, those sorts of attacks and name calling. :wink:
> 
> Hows that for predictable? :set1_rolf2:
> 
> Tim50, You can focus on the past and label what you are certain is a "Got-cha" moment. You go with that. while I focus on the here and now. Keep being awesome. :lol:



*So past lies don't count??? Just future lies???.....* Don't you feel past lies speak to the creditability and character of your current sitting vice-president. Probably not!!! TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Bloodbath

Jim C said:


> pretty sad, some clown calling other hunters Yahoos. Nothing more than another greedy selfish snob


That's all you got out of that post? I feel for you man. I'm no more greedy that a guy trying to force his beliefs onto me so he can hunt with a weapon he likes. Greed is greed my friend. If you lived in my state, then I'd probably listen to your arguements as to why we need to expand crossbow use in our state, but you aren't, so stick to your own state and leave Wisconsin to Wisconsin citizens.


----------



## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> If you read thru the anti crossbow rants here you are the FIRST to present
> a defense based on the herd. Your state can make that decision and deer population could be a valid concern. The emotional lies/retoric presented by Rancid deal strictly with the weapon. If your Game Commission makes a decision based on herd and harvest totals at least they are dealing in provable facts. NOT emotion & greed! All we have asked is decisions be based on facts not emotion & special interest groups or lobby groups. And decisions in each state does effect what happens in other states....Rancid has also pointed out no one in WI wants crossbow...SO why does he fight so hard & employee a lobbyist. Allow inclusion & following Rancid's loggic it will be ignored by the hunters of WI! But we all know that will not be the case. Rancid knows the truth he just will not share it wuth the hunters of WI. TRUTH is not his or his organizations storng suit!!..TICK-TICK-TICK


I tend to stay out of these types of debates. They get far to emotional and ugly. Name calling and insults start flying and things are said that can't be taken back. I'm already being called a clown and greedy for stating my opinion. The deer herd in Wis. is my main concern when it comes to any season structure or weapon inclusion. I see no need for the laws we have to allow expanded crossbow use. A majority of citizens of Wisconsin also feel that way. I have my reasons for feeling how I do. The depleted deer herd being one of the primary reasons. 

The WBH fights for what they believe is in the best interest of its members and bowhunters in general. I respect that.


----------



## Bloodbath

I'd rather laugh and have fun than get into pissing matches over crossbows. But as long as things don't get to insulting, I don't mind having a little debate.


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> That's all you got out of that post? I feel for you man. I'm no more greedy that a guy trying to force his beliefs onto me so he can hunt with a weapon he likes. Greed is greed my friend. If you lived in my state, then I'd probably listen to your arguements as to why we need to expand crossbow use in our state, but you aren't, so stick to your own state and leave Wisconsin to Wisconsin citizens.


you are greedy. You think that someone should not be able to hunt on public lands with a weapon that has no greater rate of predicted harvest than the one you use. The problem is-I don't like lies and that is all you ant xbow snobs have-LIES.


----------



## Bloodbath

Where have I lied? Am I not entitled to my opinion? I certainly haven't called you any names or questioned your motives, why do you find it neccessary to question mine? Is that the only way you know how to marginalize people with a different point of view than yours? Considering you know nothing about me, you certainly do a lot of assuming when you lash out.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> If you read thru the anti crossbow rants here you are the FIRST to present a defense based on the herd. Your state can make that decision and deer population could be a valid concern. The emotional lies/retoric presented by Rancid deal strictly with the weapon. If your Game Commission makes a decision based on herd and harvest totals at least they are dealing in provable facts. NOT emotion & greed!


What??? Just because you have not been paying attention does not mean you are correct. My stance has long been based on the resource. 


Back in May of this year

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1216588

June of this year

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1247951

July of this year talking about the herd and crossbows

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1255814

Back in 2009

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1024988

Not to mention the many times I explained the dire straits our herd is in and why adding crossbows to the archery season would put added strain on the resource, tagging and season length. That is the basis for my side of this debate. Funny that you missed all that and clam that bloodbath is the first to bring it up. Go to Crossbow Nation and you will see in depth discussion between myself and Buckeye Dan on this very subject matter that took place back in the early spring.

You keep wanting to talk about the past while I have been talking of the present and future and the herd.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50, your a regular over at Crossbow Nation, I was talking about crossbows in regards to the WI deer herd back in March of this year and yet you claim this is the first time you herd about the failing deer herd as a reason to oppose crossbows. You can read about here.

http://www.crossbownation.com/forum2/index.php?/topic/6826-news-wi/

The funny thing is that while Dan and I were dicussing crossbows and the WI deer herd, the typical crowd didn't like that there is a sound a valid reson so they would interject insults and straw man arguments much like take place here by you and others. It's about the herd but you didn't hear it here first. LOL 

There is a long list of out of staters that don't have a clue as to the deer herd situation in WI yet they are certain crossbows are the right answer for WI. Typically, guys like you and JimC rush in with insults and name calling rather than talking about the WI deer herd because you don't know about WI and the situation with many units being closed to antlerless harvest to both gun and bowhunters due to low numbers. You just want WI to have crossbows because you want it while ignoring the facts about WI.


----------



## Tim50

While you apperently did mention the herd in passing on other post not one of your posts are from the Crossbow Forum. You main & apperently only position in the Crossbiow Forum is bashing fellow hunters for their choice of weapon...questioning any facts provided while providing NONE of your own, defending the lies of the current VP of the WBH, bashing crossbow companies while turning a bline eye to your own organizations funding of lobbyist, and accepting outside intervention by the NABC and P&Y. And you are still unable to supply one factual reason why NOT to include crossbows other than your emotional selfserving rants supporting a small minority group attempting to impose THEIR misinformed anti crossbow stance on the hunters of WI. The truth will always prevail and that is why moving forward inclusion will come to WI......TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Bloodbath

As a nonresident to the state of Wisconsin, how can you be so sure? Come to our state and talk to the sportsmen and women of our state. Crossbows are not a popular concept right now, nor have they ever really been. Our current laws already have our herd at very low levels in some areas of the state. To expand crossbow use could cause our alreadyunder attack archery season to be shortened. I fail to see where anyone can't get involved in archery in our state, why the need for crossbows all of the sudden?


----------



## awshucks

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Tim50, your a regular over at Crossbow Nation, I was talking about crossbows in regards to the WI deer herd back in March of this year and yet you claim this is the first time you herd about the failing deer herd as a reason to oppose crossbows. You can read about here.
> 
> http://www.crossbownation.com/forum2/index.php?/topic/6826-news-wi/
> 
> The funny thing is that* while Dan and I were dicussing crossbows and the WI deer herd,* the typical crowd didn't like that there is a sound a valid reson so they would interject insults and straw man arguments much like take place here by you and others. It's about the herd but you didn't hear it here first. LOL
> 
> There is a long list of out of staters that don't have a clue as to the deer herd situation in WI yet they are certain crossbows are the right answer for WI. Typically, guys like you and JimC rush in with insults and name calling rather than talking about the WI deer herd because you don't know about WI and the situation with many units being closed to antlerless harvest to both gun and bowhunters due to low numbers. You just want WI to have crossbows because you want it while ignoring the facts about WI.


Under one of your assumed user names, you forgot to add. I had the duty that day, so I let BD know who he was dealing w/.

Your last post was: "Hakuna matata." From "The Lying King?" 

I base that lil bit of humor on your link to the TAC 10 vs TAC 15, which is $1799.99 w/ arrows and kit. Be sure to remind folks this niche product was brought out by a guy who shot a mulie at 92/108 ys w/ an X-Force vert. Then was dumb enough to put it on You-Tube. We will be.


----------



## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> As a nonresident to the state of Wisconsin, how can you be so sure? Come to our state and talk to the sportsmen and women of our state. Crossbows are not a popular concept right now, nor have they ever really been. Our current laws already have our herd at very low levels in some areas of the state. To expand crossbow use could cause our alreadyunder attack archery season to be shortened. I fail to see where anyone can't get involved in archery in our state, why the need for crossbows all of the sudden?


Rancid has assured us the hunters of WI do not WANT crossbows SO if they were somehow included how would that effect the herd! According to Rancid/Archer no one would use them. You have nothing to worry about per Rancid! Would he lie????.........TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Tim50

awshucks said:


> Under one of your assumed user names, you forgot to add. I had the duty that day, so I let BD know who he was dealing w/.
> 
> Your last post was: "Hakuna matata." From "The Lying King?"
> 
> I base that lil bit of humor on your link to the TAC 10 vs TAC 15, which is $1799.99 w/ arrows and kit. Be sure to remind folks this niche product was brought out by a guy who shot a mulie at 92/108 ys w/ an X-Force vert. Then was dumb enough to put it on You-Tube. We will be.


Shucks...don't burden the "Lying King" with facts. He will only lobby the misinformation that serves his employer. So we have a liar as the VP and the "lyning king" as the political contact of WBH.....they SHOULD feel right at home with government types...birds of a feather so to speak! Wisconsin hunters should feel very comfortable with these two representing them!....TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> While you apperently did mention the herd in passing on other post not one of your posts are from the Crossbow Forum.


Apparently did mention it. LOL. Nice try at a save. That is and has been the foundation of my argument. You have seen it over on CN and even participated in the threads. I mention it most in the WI area because crossbows in WI is a WI topic that you seem to always want to interject into without knowing the particulars about WI. Since you seem so interested, take the time to read this.
http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/news/article_e76f0e34-e727-5f0d-8def-7eb1570eb1a0.html



Tim50 said:


> You main & apperently only position in the Crossbiow Forum is bashing fellow hunters for their choice of weapon...questioning any facts provided while providing NONE of your own, defending the lies of the current VP of the WBH, bashing crossbow companies while turning a bline eye to your own organizations funding of lobbyist, and accepting outside intervention by the NABC and P&Y.


You remain totally incorrect. The main position is and has been the deer herd in WI. While there are certainly other reasons. (such as every time the full inclusion question gets asked here, it's rejected) Its not been about bashing fellow hunters, I have said all along the elderly and disabled laws in WI that allow crossbows in the archery season is a great law. I have provided the facts about the WI deer herd and the facts about the results of WI polls asking about full inclusion. 



Tim50 said:


> And you are still unable to supply one factual reason why NOT to include crossbows other than your emotional selfserving rants supporting a small minority group attempting to impose THEIR misinformed anti crossbow stance on the hunters of WI.


Look up a few lines to see the concerns for the depleted WI deer herd and the results of all the full inclusion questions asked by the state and WBH. Those are a very solid foundation and dare I say all the reasons needed in this debate. Nothing emotional, nothing self severing and not a single rant. Just the facts. Legislators know this issue very well. They know the problems with the deer herd. They know the results of all the times the question about full inclusion have been asked. They see the current batch of crossbows on the market and understand that in 10 years, those will look like toys. You see, legislators think ahead and understand the effects of laws they consider today and how they will be applied a decade from now. Those are the key points they focus on. If you hope to talk with any opinion worth listening too, do yourself a favor and spend some time in the WI area. Learn a bit about our situation before you cement your opinions. A mind is like an umbrella, it only works when it's open. Perhaps you will mature a bit and realize that name calling is all you have so far and it isn't serving you well.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=213


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> Where have I lied? Am I not entitled to my opinion? I certainly haven't called you any names or questioned your motives, why do you find it neccessary to question mine? Is that the only way you know how to marginalize people with a different point of view than yours? Considering you know nothing about me, you certainly do a lot of assuming when you lash out.


there is no valid reason to treat a crossbow archer different than a compound archer in bow season. To claim otherwise is a lie


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> there is no valid reason to treat a crossbow archer different than a compound archer in bow season. To claim otherwise is a lie


Spend some time in Northern WI and tell the deer hunters you wish to insert additional hunters with crossbows into the archery deer season and see what kind of responses you get. Crossbows are illegal in WI during the archery deer season unless you are handicapped or over 65 needing the advantages of a superior weapon to partisipate on par with bows. We care for the handicapped and elderly and would not saddle them with a weapon the was inferior so we allowed them a weapon that makes it easy for them to partake. Our residents support the laws regardless of what you and Ohio think about it.

Thankfully, nobody in WI is excluded from the archery deer season. All that want to partake can do just that. That might explain why our numbers are so strong. Retention and recruitment are not an issue here. The deer population is the issue. (that and the opinions of the states residents in this matter)

Do yourself a favor and read up on the subject so I can at least consider your opinions as something other than meaningless. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1247951

http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/new...1570eb1a0.html


----------



## xbow1

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Spend some time in Northern WI and tell the deer hunters you wish to insert additional hunters with crossbows into the archery deer season and see what kind of responses you get. Crossbows are illegal in WI during the archery deer season unless you are handicapped or over 65 needing the advantages of a superior weapon to partisipate on par with bows. We care for the handicapped and elderly and would not saddle them with a weapon the was inferior so we allowed them a weapon that makes it easy for them to partake. Our residents support the laws regardless of what you and Ohio think about it.
> 
> Thankfully, nobody in WI is excluded from the archery deer season. All that want to partake can do just that. That might explain why our numbers are so strong. Retention and recruitment are not an issue here. The deer population is the issue. (that and the opinions of the states residents in this matter)
> 
> Do yourself a favor and read up on the subject so I can at least consider your opinions as something other than meaningless.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1247951
> 
> http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/new...1570eb1a0.html


Blah, blah, blah...do you have any idea how boring you are?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

JimC, do yourself a favor and learn a little about WI before you determine you know better than we in the Dairy state.

http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/news/article_e76f0e34-e727-5f0d-8def-7eb1570eb1a0.html

Here is the press release They mention. I had been working on this issue since last Dec. when some wanted to take away the bowhunters anterless tag statewide. 

http://www.wisconsinbowhunters.org/PDF Documents/WBH press release antlerless.pdf

Even without crossbow being considered, there are some that want to strip bowhunters of our antlerless tags and/or move the gun season up a week into the rut to shorten our season and give the unhappy gun hunters more opportunity at the deer herd. You would do well to educate yourself on the topic before hurling insults and name calling. (unless that's all you have for lack of substantive discussion on the matter)

Tim50 would do well to read along. Clearly this info has left some on a very rocky foundation (including xbow1 would has nothing of substance to add so like some others, he goes with failed attempts at insults.) That's one sure way to know that these points have hit home (just like they do with state lawmakers). Thanks xbow1 for confirming. :wink:


----------



## marbowNC

First off , I shoot Mathews , NOT Hoyt ... I don't like hoyt bows , there not accurate , to loud and doesn't feel good to me !! So don't guess I'll be attending this target event !! Let me ask you this , When the majoity of the people is against something shouldn't that speak for its self ?! The people in NC spoke and yet still passed crossbows for anyone to use !! The people had no problem with the disabled using one !!


----------



## RxBowhunter

*Please keep the discussion civil without calling names*


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> First off , I shoot Mathews , NOT Hoyt ... I don't like hoyt bows , there not accurate , to loud and doesn't feel good to me !! So don't guess I'll be attending this target event !! Let me ask you this , When the majoity of the people is against something shouldn't that speak for its self ?! The people in NC spoke and yet still passed crossbows for anyone to use !! The people had no problem with the disabled using one !!


1) the US Open recurve title was won with a Hoyt Axis and Hoyt limbs in Male recurve
2) the US National Championships-Men's recurve was won with a Hoyt RX
3) The US Open women's compound championship was won with a Hoyt Compound, the same young lady won the US National Championships with the same bow--as I recall, all four of the medal match participants were using Hoyts
4) The US 70 Meter record was just set in men's recurve with a Hoyt bow (RX)
5) The men's national compound championship was won with a hoyt bow

While they might not work for you they certainly are not inaccurate.

and I have no use for a majority of people who operate for reasons that are based on greed and misinformation preventing others from hunting 

when you can prove that a crossbow has a far higher rate of predicted harvest than a compound then I might have some sympathy for your position

since most of the arguments against crossbows are based on outright lies, I doubt I can be convinced


----------



## Bloodbath

Jim C said:


> there is no valid reason to treat a crossbow archer different than a compound archer in bow season. To claim otherwise is a lie


I'm failing to see your point here. I have crossbow hunters right next door to me and have no problem with them at all. They need the benefit of using the stored energy weapon because of their age and disability. I'm happy they have that option. But what practical reason does the state of Wisconsin have to include crossbows in the archery season for anyone that is able bodied? Wouldn't a seperate season make more sense?


----------



## Bloodbath

Who is not able to participate in Wisconsin's archery season right now? 
A crossbow is a stored energy weapon. That's the plain and simple truth. I see no reason Wisconsin needs to include these weapons in the current archery season.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Bloodbath said:


> I see no reason Wisconsin needs to include these weapons in the current archery season.


And you are in the Majority in this states rights issue. :wink: Those from out of state that are lacking in the understanding of this issue or our laws or of our deer herd are not making a lot of sense. Thankfully policy makers get it.


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> I'm failing to see your point here. I have crossbow hunters right next door to me and have no problem with them at all. They need the benefit of using the stored energy weapon because of their age and disability. I'm happy they have that option. But what practical reason does the state of Wisconsin have to include crossbows in the archery season for anyone that is able bodied? Wouldn't a seperate season make more sense?


no it wouldn't. we don't separate compounds from trad bows so why separate compounds from crossbows when they are essentially the same in every area that counts

"is stored energy" the new talking point from the PBS
BTW all bows store energy 
and compounds create a huge mechanical advantage


----------



## marbowNC

When the majoity of the people is against something shouldn't that speak for its self ?! The people in NC spoke and yet still passed crossbows for anyone to use !! The people had no problem with the disabled using one !! 
I guess you have no anwser to this ? HOW else could something like this get in with out GREED as you speak of so much when the majority is against this !!


----------

