# Cutting 2712's short?



## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

Not a discussion on what brand, or which is better.

I'm interested in the "why" or more specifically "how does it work" 

Watching the Vegas shoot offs I noticed that a lot of the top competitors were shooting the new silvered colored (very good looking, IMO) Easton 2712's cut to just past their bows riser.

Previously, it was in vogue to shoot them full length with 300 gr. points to break the spine down to shoot out of 50#-60# target bows.

I asked a Master Coach around here about this and he told me that the 2712's were being shot at 28" to 29" long with 200 to 250 gr points. Although grossly over spined, they flew like darts as they got to 60 feet before the spine could have any effect on arrow flight.

Hmmmm.....I've always used a computer program to get my arrows properly spined for indoor and outdoor tournament shooting, and bow hunting.

Any thoughts on this?


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## RickB4 (Apr 18, 2013)

I was told by Easton to leave mine uncut and to use 300 grain tips. I am shooting a PCE 29" DL 50 pounds


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

most programs are still oreiented to produce correct spine, based on older bows that aren't truly center shot. newer bows, that are truly center shot will tolerate shorter stiffer arrows because there is no need to get the arrow around the bow, in any way. the other aspect, is that your a re watching a group of shooters that have the most well developed shot execution there is.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I cut mine to 30" with 300 gr. points. I have 29" DL. 54lbs. I started full length and like them better shorter. They seem to take less time to stabilize with the point weight closer to the rest when you tune 1/4" to 3/8" nock high.

I shot a 300-27x Vegas in leagues last night with them, so I suppose they do ok. 

FWIW, they are the same arrow as the X7 eclipse.


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## superdean00 (Jul 23, 2008)

I liked my new Easton 2712's better cut a little longer with 300 grains, but had 6 arrows already cut at 30". So I fletched the shorter arrows(30") with an pretty hard heli-coil and they seemed to shoot much better. With my normal fletching they didn't seem very forgiving. Every now and then I would shoot a shot that I thought wasn't great but should have held in the ten, and would notice that it would be a 9. With them all now cut at 30" and an aggressive heli-coil they seem to shoot much better. Oh my draw length is 29".


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

CarlV said:


> I asked a Master Coach around here about this and he told me that the 2712's were being shot at 28" to 29" long with 200 to 250 gr points. Although grossly over spined, they flew like darts as they got to 60 feet before the spine could have any effect on arrow flight.


ron w is probably right about the spine issues. I shoot an arrow significantly stiffer than the 2712 cut down to I think 29" w/250gn tips out of a #50 bow, and I get great arrow flight, and can tune them to get bare shafts to match fletched.

One thing I found curious....Wondering what effect the coach thought spine had AFTER 60 feet. You would think spine issues would be magnified at the bow and dissipate over distance.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Well lets just see what the big dogs are doing. I'm sure they shoot what they shoot because it works. 

http://competitionarcheryproducts.com/shooters/


I shoot a 31" 2712 X7 with a 250 grain pins


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

Mahly said:


> One thing I found curious....Wondering what effect the coach thought spine had AFTER 60 feet. You would think spine issues would be magnified at the bow and dissipate over distance.


I Agree With You.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

PSE Archer said:


> Well lets just see what the big dogs are doing. I'm sure they shoot what they shoot because it works.


While the idea of doing what the "big dogs" do is a good one you will notice there are some exceptions on the chart. Also, this information isn't particularly current. With that in mind there are some new (maybe not new, but different) thoughts floating around about the use of full length shafts.

Bottom line, it's a lot more important you get yours shooting in one hole than it is if they are full length or not. Full length might be the way to do it, it might not. :cheers:


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

There are at least four ways to approach arrow length:
1- build them in accordance with a program that gives you the "correct" spine.
2- cut them just past the rest and put a light point on it.
3- build them near full length and put on the heaviest point available.
4- select three shafts from the dozen and gradually cut them down while shooting several scoring rounds after each cut down. Pick the length and point weight that gives you the best groups.

I've tried all four and at my skill level I just leave them full length and put a 300 grain point on them. I think that better shooters would benefit by the last method, but I couldn't find a sweet spot with 2613's or 2712's. Probably has to do with my short DL and low DW.

I'm sure that there are other ways to pick the best arrow length and point weight that I haven't heard of. If you know of any please post them up.
Allen


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> While the idea of doing what the "big dogs" do is a good one you will notice there are some exceptions on the chart. Also, this information isn't particularly current. With that in mind there are some new (maybe not new, but different) thoughts floating around about the use of full length shafts.
> 
> *Bottom line, it's a lot more important you get yours shooting in one hole than it is if they are full length or not. Full length might be the way to do it, it might not*. :cheers:



Nailed it...

Its all dynamic. What works for me might/might not work for you. That's the best/worst part of this game. No easy answer, just countless hours of trial and error to fine the best application for each individual. It drives us all f-ing nuts, but that's why we do it.......


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Lazarus said:


> While the idea of doing what the "big dogs" do is a good one you will notice there are some exceptions on the chart. Also, this information isn't particularly current. With that in mind there are some new (maybe not new, but different) thoughts floating around about the use of full length shafts.
> 
> Bottom line, it's a lot more important you get yours shooting in one hole than it is if they are full length or not. Full length might be the way to do it, it might not. :cheers:


Bottom line is there are as many ideas on how to cut an arrow as there are ways to shoot a hinge. Its all armpits to me.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

The fact that all on the same shooting line, shooting equal scores, one guy (Reo, Jessie, others) might shoot theirs full length, and another (Levi, Dave, others,) might shoot theirs cut shorter, or even at the sight window proves one thing. As usual, *it's the Indian.*


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly.....
what people fail to remember, is that there's a reason these guys are what they are, and it's not because of what they know about arrow length !


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, not 2712s or other "logs," but .355" diameter. These are .400 spine arrows with a glue-in 80 gr point up through a 47 grs insert with field points of 100 thru 145 grs. So 80 grs. to 192 grs up front. Bow set to 55 pounds. Arrows are shaft cut length of 26 3/8".
I was testing, not trying to get one hole accuracy, but if one hole accuracy, the combination of the 47 gr insert and 85 field point I thought most forgiving.

Pics left to right; 80 gr, 132 grs, 147 grs, 172 grs, and 192 grs. This is 112 gr spread and accuracy remains for 20 yards.


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## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

Mahly said:


> ron w is probably right about the spine issues. I shoot an arrow significantly stiffer than the 2712 cut down to I think 29" w/250gn tips out of a #50 bow, and I get great arrow flight, and can tune them to get bare shafts to match fletched.
> 
> One thing I found curious....Wondering what effect the coach thought spine had AFTER 60 feet. You would think spine issues would be magnified at the bow and dissipate over distance.


Mahly, what I have found with *BH*, is in fact the exact opposite as distance increases.

Theoritically that should hold true with a point...wouldn't it?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the problem with that dissipation, is that the arrows' POI is established in the first few feet of flight out of the bow, as it recovers from being forced out of column. if spine causes reactions that are considerably more violent and upsetting to those first few feet of flight, POI changes on every shot, because each arrow recovers slightly differently...... the typical condition of a soft spine. therefore, the importance of at least correct spine, in the sense that it is not too soft, is always the norm. the rule about picking the stiffer of two spines that are close to requirement but under, or over the specific value, is based on this criteria. there is of course the condition where too stiff a spine value causes similar POI changes, but fir slightly different reasons, on bows, where correct spine is absolutely necessary, such earlier bows, that are not truly center shot.
with modern bows, and true center shot riser geometry, stiffer arrows can be shot, thus taking advantage of a spine value that is considerably stiffer than "correct" ensuring although the reaction dissipates as flight continues, it's effect has been established very early in the flight and the value of that dissipation, relative to the intended accuracy of the shot, actually means very little, down range. 
simply put, a stiff spine as a result of being able to use it, out of a truly center shot bow, doesn't cause this change in POI that would increasingly open groups as the distance increased.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

with broad heads, what causes the difference in POI, is that as the arrow flexes and rebounds in recover from flexing during that first few feet of flight, the blades act a "front ruddes' on an airplane, and steer the arrow around as it flies constantly changing the intended flight path. in that every arrow is relatively the same spine, the same cycle of flex and recovery happens with each arrow, and it steers the arrows to roughly the same POI. 
obviously, a typically pointed arrow does not have these "front rudders", to steer it around in flight. so it's POI will be different than a broad headed arrow.
getting both to hit the same POI, is a compromise in bias, between center shot alignment and sight windage, that brings both POI's to relatively the same spot.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Hoyt_em said:


> Mahly, what I have found with *BH*, is in fact the exact opposite as distance increases.
> 
> Theoritically that should hold true with a point...wouldn't it?


I think your just seeing the spread of the shot.
As you get farther away, the difference between a fletched vs bare shaft, or broad head becomes more pronounced.
I don't think that after 20 yards, arrows suddenly change course.

Figure a field point/ fletched shaft gets you 10 minutes of angle (+1" group for every 10 yards), and your bare shaft or broad heads get 12 minutes of angle. 
At 20 yards they hit within 1/2 inch of each other (center to center... Slapping shafts for 27/64 arrows) 
At 40 yards now the target arrows are 2" apart and the others are 2.8" apart, and at 60 that are about 6" vs 7.2" apart.
Add in the difference in aerodynamic properties, and you could be off even more.

What looked like matched grouping at 20 shows being off by 20% or more as you get down range.

Once the trajectory has been set, and the arrow is stable, spine has no impact on flight.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I believe at 20 yards you can throw darts and will work reasonably well if you can "process" consistently, the shaft spine could be off big time but you just simply tune the sight to that single distance, use some big feathers and you are good to go...I don't think with most of these indoor logs you can achieve some decent scoring beyond 30-40-or longer, they just won't group anymore. 
The spine planning really comes to play if you want to go longer distances, for full FITA 30-50-70-90 don't even think to try some wild guess, at 70-90 the +/- shaft length must be within total of 1/2" tolerance if you want to score well. 1/2" on CX nanos or x-10's is about 3-4 grain, that is a maximum deviation to group tight or just approximately tight.


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