# Keeping my pin in the 10 ring



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

At this point, your draw length, loop length, and form. Those will give you the biggest benefits. Having good, solid form with bone to bone contact where your body doesn't fight itself. Using the correct muscles. And having the draw length fine tuned down to 1/8 of an inch.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

If your bow set up is already spot on, the best you can do is have quality practice sessions and multiple tournament experiences. The more you shoot well, the tighter your groups will become.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

deveopmentof a good execution, will contain elements of "keeping your pin in the 10 ring, automatically. good fit and proper form are supportive elements of good aiming and a reasonably minimum float range of movement. it requires that both be present for either one to develop.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> At this point, your draw length, loop length, and form. Those will give you the biggest benefits. Having good, solid form with bone to bone contact where your body doesn't fight itself. Using the correct muscles. And having the draw length fine tuned down to 1/8 of an inch.


Relax...


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Well there are some equipment considerations and the there are mental considerations. By far the most effective and cheapest is to attack the mental gave first. This can be done different ways, but each will involve setting small milestone goals toward a larger ultimate goal. For example if you started saying today during this round I am going to shoot three perfect shots, and in your case that would mean the dot didn't leave the 10 for those 3 shots. Or perhaps even better would be a one shot goal repeated three times...subtle difference. But ultimately EPLC is correct in saying "relax". Tense muscles and actions don't bode well for an archer. So it takes a certain amount of relaxation and confidence. By confidence I mean that we teach ourselves to believe that it is in our nature and natural tendecies to do the thing we are trying to accomplish "it is like me to shoot 10's". There cannot be enough said about positive self talk and where needed self correction for actions taken that move us further from our goals. 
Now as far as equipment goes there are factors that contribute to stability but each has a point of deminishing returns. Stabilizers ought to be one of the top focuses when hold is what we are seeking. So what are the basic principles that govern stabilizers. 1. Longer is in fact better. 2. Lighter bars without sacrificing rigidity is better. 3. Possibly the most critical, more weight on the bars is better from a purely theoretical/physics stand point. What I mean by the last is that if a bow could weight 50 pounds and 47 of that was balanced well between front and rear bars that were perfectly rigid and let's say the front bar was 8 feet long and the back two v-bars of 4 feet when the bow was being aimed it would take an incredible amount of input from the shooter to make that much mass move so if the dot was in the center as the bow was fired it would be unlikely that slight inputs at the shot could make enough of a difference to throw the arrow off it course. So does this apply to us? Certainly not to me because I could not hold 50 pounds on my shoulders even with 0% let off to help. But if a person does have strong shoulders we can work within those parameters and use that to our advantage. 

So what should a person do to hold better? Make a mental stand to not accept anything less than perfection while balancing that with the ability to not dwell on mistakes but rather acknowledge the flaw and start over resolute to make the next shot perfect. If we try to gain points by changing equipment we end up trying to fix a large problem with a small amount of cure. Just my thoughts.


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## cadethearcher (Jul 28, 2014)

Khaslem said:


> Well there are some equipment considerations and the there are mental considerations. By far the most effective and cheapest is to attack the mental gave first. This can be done different ways, but each will involve setting small milestone goals toward a larger ultimate goal. For example if you started saying today during this round I am going to shoot three perfect shots, and in your case that would mean the dot didn't leave the 10 for those 3 shots. Or perhaps even better would be a one shot goal repeated three times...subtle difference. But ultimately EPLC is correct in saying "relax". Tense muscles and actions don't bode well for an archer. So it takes a certain amount of relaxation and confidence. By confidence I mean that we teach ourselves to believe that it is in our nature and natural tendecies to do the thing we are trying to accomplish "it is like me to shoot 10's". There cannot be enough said about positive self talk and where needed self correction for actions taken that move us further from our goals.
> Now as far as equipment goes there are factors that contribute to stability but each has a point of deminishing returns. Stabilizers ought to be one of the top focuses when hold is what we are seeking. So what are the basic principles that govern stabilizers. 1. Longer is in fact better. 2. Lighter bars without sacrificing rigidity is better. 3. Possibly the most critical, more weight on the bars is better from a purely theoretical/physics stand point. What I mean by the last is that if a bow could weight 50 pounds and 47 of that was balanced well between front and rear bars that were perfectly rigid and let's say the front bar was 8 feet long and the back two v-bars of 4 feet when the bow was being aimed it would take an incredible amount of input from the shooter to make that much mass move so if the dot was in the center as the bow was fired it would be unlikely that slight inputs at the shot could make enough of a difference to throw the arrow off it course. So does this apply to us? Certainly not to me because I could not hold 50 pounds on my shoulders even with 0% let off to help. But if a person does have strong shoulders we can work within those parameters and use that to our advantage.
> 
> So what should a person do to hold better? Make a mental stand to not accept anything less than perfection while balancing that with the ability to not dwell on mistakes but rather acknowledge the flaw and start over resolute to make the next shot perfect. If we try to gain points by changing equipment we end up trying to fix a large problem with a small amount of cure. Just my thoughts.


Thanks that was helpful!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

EPLC said:


> Relax...


I don't follow?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

by "relax", I think EPLC meant for the OP to "relax" while shooting. 
the single worded reply was sort ambiguous in meaning and intended direction.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yep, I took it that EPLC agreed with you and added "relax." And relaxed is key...


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> by "relax", I think EPLC meant for the OP to "relax" while shooting.
> the single worded reply was sort ambiguous in meaning and intended direction.


Welcome back Ron!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> I don't follow?


And I can see why. I quoted the OP's first post and somehow yours showed up and I didn't pick up on it. Maybe I fat fingered it, don't know?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Heck with how crazy the servers have been on here lately who knows lol


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

single arrow drills. That is one arrow in the quiver....shoot, walk and pull. Doing this forces you to focus on precisely building your shot sequence and focusing on your form, sight picture, relaxing....if it doesn't feel right, let down.

Let down exercises help too....3+ let downs per shot fired.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> And I can see why. I quoted the OP's first post and somehow yours showed up and I didn't pick up on it. Maybe I fat fingered it, don't know?





RCR_III said:


> Heck with how crazy the servers have been on here lately who knows lol


Off subject, but, yes, something is screwy on AT. I have to check for double posts, I try to get to my posts and I get some advertisement or "We can't seem to reach this page."


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> single arrow drills. That is one arrow in the quiver....shoot, walk and pull. Doing this forces you to focus on precisely building your shot sequence and focusing on your form, sight picture, relaxing....if it doesn't feel right, let down.
> 
> Let down exercises help too....3+ let downs per shot fired.


Yes, I've done this a lot and it works, one and two shot drills.....and not enough let downs.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

RCR_III said:


> At this point, your draw length, loop length, and form. Those will give you the biggest benefits. Having good, solid form with bone to bone contact where your body doesn't fight itself. Using the correct muscles. And having the draw length fine tuned down to 1/8 of an inch.


I hate quoting some one but when what they said is important you just do it " a quarter inch in draw length can be a huge contributor. Front shoulder being Down and keeping it there contributed significantly assuming proper stabalization. Once draw length is correct and basic form is good more is gained from the archer than equipment. Small defects inform will make hour dot of pin wander all over hells half acre.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

For me with round targets I really prefer to see the spot, so I use a ring. It just works better at keeping me relaxed which in turn reduces the float.

Grant


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Heck, I can't stay in the 10 ring. In fact, I used my .010" pin yesterday and it covered up the X ring of a NFAA 5 spot, same size as a Vegas 10 ring. Shooting friend of mine has my 6X lens with .019" and hasn't found it yet to give back. Never tried it for staying in the in either ring. I had tiny orange circle on it, bought it that way, and it worked so I left it that way.
Steve Boylan, retired top ace shooter on the Vegas face, used a dot that looked a 1/4" in diameter when I shot with him at Game Master's State Indoor.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I use a dot that almost fills the yellow on my lens. I have a thin halo around it when it's centered. That helps a lot with reducing focus strain.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

good point.
the size of your dot has a lot to do with it. a really small dot that looks like it has alot of room to wander around in the center ,...will wander around in the center. same goes for rings. they have to be just the right size to be inside the white and still big enough to focus on the x through the ring. right about in the idle of the space between the x-ring and the diameter of the white, seems to work the best for the most people. small enough that you don't mind seeing it wander slightly without leaving the white too much, but big enough to be able to easily focus through. 
ironically, I never got used to using a dot when shooting spots. it just didn't make sense to me to focus on the x-ring and then block it out with a dot,.... yet at the same time,..... if i'm shooting a pin, it doesn't bother me one bit for the pin to cover the center.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Two months before my accident. One and two shot drill, shot with two bows, both with 4X lens, one with a .019" pin and one with a .029" pin. Used one target so point of reference and sight picture was the same each and every time. Never saw the 10 ring once. More than 40 shots, but called it 40. Score 398/400. Arrows used have a 6.04% FOC, not what you'd call Indoor arrows.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

1. Leave your pin alone, The moment it leaves the 10 ring or x and you grab onto it and try to fix the problem your body will send it back to the middle way to harshly and it will have momentum and go right on by leaving on the other side worse and the problem just snow balls.

2. By leaving the pin alone, you will learn that your brain is going to send the pin back the other way to the center without you messing with it and do so very smoothly.

3. I do little float drills such as when people are praying and they touch up down left and right on their chest, well I do this on the 6 o'clock 12 o'clock 9 o'clock 3 o'clock spots on the 10 ring a couple times and then let down. If you haven't done this one you need to because it really opens up your eyes to how your guidance system works because you can just think it and your brain will just do it without you grabbing onto the pin.

4. Shoot with a shot window: This one is huge and more than likely you haven't ever experienced it but I went through it two winters ago, I personally got sick of my pin floating off the spot and the moment that I tried to fix the pin my stinking hinge would fire every stinking time. It was like my hinge was waiting for the pin to leave the spot and me to grab it and the hinge would fire to just pizz me off. Well there is a lesson here to be learned, Your brain is going to fix the problem without you grabbing the pin and send the pin back to the center of the 10 ring so you just have to let that happen and most of the time it will do so before the hinge fires because your hinge is right on the edge and if you grab the pin that muscle tension to do that job of fixing the problem will fire the hinge instantly but by just continuing with your firing engine and letting the brain fix the problem the hinge will most of the time not fire and your pin will come back to the center and then fire within your shot window. It is almost a 90% failure rate when you try and grab the pin and fix the problem and less than 10% failure rate when you let your brain do the job. 

I have studied my float and hold pattern tens of thousands of times and it is what it is and decent amateur level float that allows me to enjoy my shooting, I don't ask it to do anything that it isn't capable of doing and I can shoot 500 or so 10 rings of vegas or x's in 5-spot in a row on a regular basis with about 7 or shots per day hitting the line on the outer half and most of them staying completely inside out for about a hundred arrows. My pin leaves the 10 ring on a regular basis just enough that it gives my arrow the chance of missing. In the past when I would try and fix them manually I missed them all the time but once I started leaving them alone the arrows seemed to just hit dead on most of the time and I simply stopped missing. I really don't think I improved my hold or my firing of the hinge, I just stopped freaking out and allowing my brain do its job.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I will say that in my shot window for the last couple winters of indoor I have each season learned that about 2 seconds into my shot window my pin stinking just stops for about 1.5 seconds dead center almost every shot. So I have worked really hard on coming to anchor and as my pin approaches the x I start my firing engine so that it has already began rotating the hinge as my float pattern starts and that way my hinge may fire during that perfect part of my hold. Most of the time it fires just after the pin starts moving again but I do get a pretty good percentage of shots per day that fire during that 1.5 seconds and they are simply awesome to say the least but mentally I am ok with the shot going off just after in the middle or second half of my shot window. Most of the time my pin wan't to leave the 10 ring in the later half of the shot window if it is going to so by starting my engine as I approach the x I give myself a good chance for the hinge to fire on the first half of the window or the middle portion most of the time.

So many people wait for their pin to show some sign of being perfect for them to start their engine and all they are doing is guaranteeing themselves that the shot is going to for sure happen after the perfect pin location because by the time the engine runs for 3 or 4 seconds that perfect pin has moved on somewhere else.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

what you have described as your typical shot widow, is exactly what the "shot window drill", establishes. that small window of opportunity that results in an X being shot. everyone's is slightly different, but everyone has it. the drill exposes when the shot widow appears in your specific shot process and then develops the process to deliver the shot reliably and repeatedly, within that window of time.
you could say it develops the cadence or rhythm that produces the best timing for your process to run on.


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## Alabamadog (Mar 16, 2015)

Great stuff, thanks


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## zick (Oct 26, 2004)

Good info guys, thanks.


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