# Bow weight......Myths debunked



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Handshock -

You're really showing how little you know about archery.

Let's do it by the numbers:



> Here of late there has been a small, but vocal minority


You're going to have include every Olympic / target coach, basically in the world in that minority. Take a look at the caliber of shooters they produce and compare that to the caliber of most "trad" shooters. 



> that in their opinion it is impossible for most average men to draw, hold, and accurately release a bow over 40#


Not exactly. What we've said is that the overwhelming majority of beginners can't get enough controlled arrows down range to learn with #40 bows. The first few are easy, but after that form deteriorates quite quickly and that's where bad habits develop. 



> and that since he is incapable of beginning with a certain bow weight, all others should experience the same malady.


Dude, you have no idea of how I learned to show or what I shoot, so lets grow up and stop the personal comments and stick to facts.



> Who here remembers attending gym class in school?.


Again, major mistake. Archery ain't weight lifting. A more accurate analogy would be a Martial Arts class. Again, it's fine motor skills, not brute force. Sure, some beginners may need to start with #25 and some with #30, the stongest #35, but after a few legitmate training sessions, those "strong" guys are seriously thinking about lighter bows. 



> While there are some well meaning internet "coaches" teaching a "one size fits all" approach to beginning archery,


Interesting, that's exactly how the South Korean archery coaches do it, and they've been clreaning everybodies clocks on a regular basis. 



> ...This opposes the laws of physics. You cannot shoot a 30# bow for a year, and then expect to have muscle developement to shoot a 40# bow with the same ease.


First, it has nothing to do with Physics, it's Physiology. Since the muscles used in archery are not used the same way in most other activities , there's no reason to assume that they will be pre-developed in some individuals more than others; hence the comment on another thread about a champion weight lifter and heavy compound shooter having difficulty with a #60 stickbow. The new muscle function has to be introduced, developed and then allowed to grow. The lighter the bow the better as it allows the shooter's nervous system to aclmate to the new activity or form without needing to "cheat".

Sorry, the rest of your diatribe is meaningless. What we've stated isn't opinion, it's fact, proven time and time again by solid competitve coaches and archers the world over, as well as a lot of guys right here who want to actaully learn to shot well and do so quickly and painlessly. 

Your arguements are not new, they been used before and debunked by most archers who been through the scenario for a while. 

Anyway, I've wasted enough time on this, so good night Bill. 

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Handshock said:


> The reasons these folks give for this is, is that in their opinion it is impossible for most average men to draw, hold, and accurately release a bow over 40#.


None of the people you argue with and disagree with so vehemently have ever said that, so your whole thesis is based on your own false assumption.

What a piece of work you are!

Dave


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

If archery were a strength competition, some of your premises might be valid. Unfortunately archery is about form, finesse, focus, repeateability and consistency, not strength. Consequently most of your premises are worthless and in fact may be damaging to the average beginning archer.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Handshock -
> 
> You're really showing how little you know about archery.
> 
> Let's do it by the numbers:


I agree, if by "archery" you mean the revised version that guys who shoot 300gr arrows at hay bales with 30# bows call "archery"........:wink: 






> You're going to have include every Olympic / target coach, basically in the world in that minority. Take a look at the caliber of shooters they produce and compare that to the caliber of most "trad" shooters.


Sorry Vipe, but I do just well at my chosen pursuit. The problem is is it disturbs you because I do it with a bow you consider heavy.......:mg: 






> Not exactly. What we've said is that the overwhelming majority of beginners can't get enough controlled arrows down range to learn with #40 bows.


No, what you have have said, is that YOU, and your cohorts can't handle bows over 40# long enough to control your shots for accurate shooting. Myself and many others do not have that problem. Please speak for yourself. 



> The first few are easy, but after that form deteriorates quite quickly and that's where bad habits develop.


If you have bad shooting habits, it goes much deeper than your bow weight Viper. 






> Dude, you have no idea of how I learned to show or what I shoot, so lets grow up and stop the personal comments and stick to facts.


"Dude", I am not the one obcessing over other guys shooting heavy bows you are. I am not the one running around 3-d shoots and checking the bow weights of the shooters, you are............:wink: 






> Again, major mistake. Archery ain't weight lifting.


Archery and weight training both require controlled use of muscles to move weight. 


> A more accurate analogy would be a Martial Arts class. Again, it's fine motor skills, not brute force.


Clearly you have not engaged in controlled strenth training. 




> Sure, some beginners may need to start with #25 and some with #30, the stongest #35, but after a few legitmate training sessions, those "strong" guys are seriously thinking about lighter bows.


Again, it would be better to say that they strongest among your group can only handle 35#. I can assure you that you do not speak for most adult male archers, and bowhunters. Again Viper, there is no shame in admitting that you are not strong enough to shoot a heavier bow. The shame comes in your assuming that all other men are as weak as you. 





> Interesting, that's exactly how the South Korean archery coaches do it, and they've been clreaning everybodies clocks on a regular basis.


Again, speak for yourself. I feel very confident in the fact that my tackle, and pursuit of archery will hold it's own against all comers......:wink: 





> First, it has nothing to do with Physics, it's Physiology. Since the muscles used in archery are not used the same way in most other activities , there's no reason to assume that they will be pre-developed in some individuals more than others;


Therefore, according to your theory, a 6' 2" 200# athletic male, who has never shot a bow, will not be able to hold a 35# recurve bow at full draw any longer than a 5' 110 # woman with a petite build , can hold 35# at full draw????..........Viper, you make my job easy........:wink: 




> hence the comment on another thread about a champion weight lifter and heavy compound shooter having difficulty with a #60 stickbow. The new muscle function has to be introduced, developed and then allowed to grow. The lighter the bow the better as it allows the shooter's nervous system to aclmate to the new activity or form without needing to "cheat".


Wait a minute, in another thread you claimed that no one could shoot a stickbow well at 60#?????????......

Also it should be pointed out that you are the only one talking about cheating. I agree that *you* may have to cheat to draw a bow that is too heavy for you, however a man who is more powerful than yourself can draw a bow with good form, without cheating. Nowhere have I suggested "cheating" to shoot heavier bows. I simply stated that some men can naturally draw heavier bows from the get go, than men of weaker stature. 



> Sorry, the rest of your diatribe is meaningless. What we've stated isn't opinion, it's fact, proven time and time again by solid competitve coaches and archers the world over, as well as a lot of guys right here who want to actaully learn to shot well and do so quickly and painlessly.


Hey, you got to hold unto something...........:cocktail:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> If archery were a strength competition, some of your premises might be valid.


While archery success is not measured by the amount of draw weight one pulls, strenth is very critical to it's success, unless one is happy shooting child weight bows, with feather light arrows. 




> Unfortunately archery is about form, finesse, focus, repeateability and consistency, not strength.



Again, strenth is not an issue if shooting a child weight bow is your desire. However most men in America do not desire to do so. My purpose in archery is to place heavy arrows into the vitals of wild game at distances out to 50 yards. Since a super light target shaft, with 2" fletchings, shoot from a 30# recurve will have a hard time passing through the chest of an elk, bear, or moose at 50yards, I prefer to use tackle that will do so. 

Early in my archery career I found that a 50# recurve was a good starting point for my strenth level. Granted, it may well be way too much bow for you, therefore I recommend that you resign yourself to a lighter bow that you can handle.

I just simply ask that you do not judge my strenth ability, or that of others compared to yours. This being the whole focus of this thread. 




> Consequently most of your premises are worthless and in fact may be damaging to the average beginning archer.


They are only worthless, if the incorrect bow is chosen. While you were too physically weak to start shooting a 48# bow, it does not mean that other men were too weak. Again, if I was training a young lady who worked in an office to shoot a recurve, and a thick necked brick layer to do the same, I would not give the bricklayer the same bow I gave the lady to start.

In the same way, I would not ask the lady to shoot the bow I started the brick layer with. You see this all comes down to ego, in that guys who cannot shoot heavier bows feel insecure about their manhood, and seek to protect their ego by trying to make everyone think that everyone is as weak as them.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Handshock, it would probably surprise a manly man such as yourself, but I hunt with a 52# longbow and a 49# Warf. But the question originally what was should a beginning archer start with, not what should he eventually hunt with. There is a big difference between learning archery form and bowhunting. Oh, and I'm secure enough in my manhood that I don't find it necessary to advocate heavy bows.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

I would love to see how you fare against a 90 pound female Korean archer.


> Again, speak for yourself. I feel very confident in the fact that my tackle, and pursuit of archery will hold it's own against all comers......


HS - you are so far out of your league here as far as real factual knowledge is concerned, you have no idea how foolish you look.

Or you are just a troll.


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

Bill McNeal (spelling) ???


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Floxter said:


> But the question originally what was should a beginning archer start with, not what should he eventually hunt with. There is a big difference between learning archery form and bowhunting. Oh, and I'm secure enough in my manhood that I don't find it necessary to advocate heavy bows.



HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

I hunt with 57# but i practice with 34#

Im not a man i guess


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

MarkH said:


> Bill McNeal (spelling) ???



I think you got it Mark!
Banned repeatedly from every board on the net, if so.

Steve


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## retro-grouch (Mar 19, 2005)

I think most of you guys are stuck in your own little worlds. On one side, you have some pure target shooters and on the other end, you have guys who only hunt and think its all about pulling excessive weights.

For most people the starting point is somewhere in between. If a guy has been shooting heavy wheels for a long time, then it is not that big of a deal to start them out in the low to mid-40's. I have two customers who's first stick bows were 50 and 55 respectively. Both were naturally big men and both shot heavy compounds. And both had absolutely no problem picking up and shooting these bows very well. Still I prefer to start even these kinds of customers out in the 40s.

For newbies who have never shot. I would not even consider letting a newbie start at more than 35 and preferably 30 lbs. Some even less than that. And some of those folks were strong enough to move up in weight very quickly while maintaining good form.

There are a lot of different folks getting into stickbows these day. I tend to stock more entry level bows in the 30-35 range, but some folks can naturally shoot a bit heavier. And yes, even a few can pull back and maintain good shooting form at weights that some of you cringe at. 

There is no blanket philosophy for all these different folks


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

retro - 

While I have to agree with just about everything you've said, I will add a couple of points ... 



> There is no blanket philosophy for all these different folks


I believe there is, here's why. Part of an instructor's job and more so a coache's job is to adapt to the feedback he get's from his students/athletes. That's the reason for the #35 pound rule, if some want to call it that. As we've said, in the beginning draw weight really can't enter the picture. If a guy is under-bowed at #35 (unlikely, if he's being trained properly), no big shakes. He can deal with the lighter weight and just start working on more advanced principles earlier - refining his form, so to speak. Then he can increase the weight when he's ready and his budget allows. Erring on the heavy side negates that possibility and the guy has to either slow his progress or spring for a lighter bow or limbs.

The other thing I take seriously is that a new shooter isn't a target archer or bowhunter - he's a beginner, nothing more. The initial training has to be the same regardless of the end result. Once the fundamentals are taking shape, then the instructor/coach needs to start making distinctions. The only thing I really do a liitle differently, is if a shooter KNOWS his interest will be in target archery, then I'll steer him towards a ILF target bow from the get go. Just makes things easier and cheaper in the long run. 

Steve and Mark -

Yeah, sure seems that way, don't it. ukey: 

Viper1 out.


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## Wolf among dogs (Jan 5, 2007)

I had no clue that me being a man had ANYTHING to do with my passion for a sport , at a weight a can handle and be a productive game harvester as well as a target shooter to stay in shape for hunting seasons here in Florida.
What can be said is that one person who is physically capable to do their best every day with the gifts that they were given is up to them.
As well as being a "man"... nothing more ego-stroking than to have a torn rotater cuff or blown shoulder after two seasons of a sport you love and have all your life due to that fact someone is asking questions about your personal choices and the gear you are comfortable with (let alone successful!)
My back and shoulders are in great shape from my 50# bow and yes i did work my way to fifty pounds..i think thats the best way to improve my strength as not to put stress on my body and REMAIN healthy and successful.
Im in it for the long haul ! Not to impress someone with my draw weight
Any idea how many recurves i have obtained from them being to heavy? LOTS !!
My son started with a 15# bow..working his way to 50# one day when he can handle it.Being secure in his manhood did that for him
This sport doesnt need anymore negative press and some brain dead person putting draw weights out there as guide lines is a joke..Im not hunting targets and at 50#s i have several clean pass-through kills to my name.
Maybe being a man is enjoying life and not worrying about others abilities,just your own ! 
As ive said before, i also stalk in my suede slippers and my 12 point P&Y White Tail Deer was shot with my less-than-manly 50# recurve at 13yds..
If you need any help be sure to let me know. I would love to show you how to enjoy the hunt without all the hype and the flexing and the downgrading of fellow archers
Lets leave the flexing and boasting for the gym shall we ?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

retro-grouch said:


> I think most of you guys are stuck in your own little worlds. On one side, you have some pure target shooters and on the other end, you have guys who only hunt and think its all about pulling excessive weights.


Spot on! It's a lot like politics: you've got extremes on both ends with a lot of common sense in the middle. :thumbs_up


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## tpoof (Dec 18, 2005)

some guys can talk o so good... its easy to see where the heart lies :wink: :cocktail:


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## motty (Sep 22, 2006)

A 50# bow is considered light here in Australia.


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## motty (Sep 22, 2006)

Hell I thought I'd better expand on that before Viper bites a piece out of me.
Hunting large feral pigs in the tropics,with thick hides coverd in mud requires a bit more power. Getting a 600gn arrow into them to stop them sees most people using min. 55# upto 70# recurves. I started back into recurves after a 20 year lull with a 50#, no worries. But thats only me, not you or the bloke down the road


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## rjtfroggy (Dec 5, 2006)

*draw wt*

I have been pulling 52# long bow and a 54# recurve for about twenty years. This after three major back surgeries, but this year a shoulder pull and I am lucky if I could pull a 30# bos more than 5 times without pain, and I am in the gym everyday so strength is not the problem.
I have worked my whole life as a firefighter and upper body stregth was needed everyday of the week, so that is where we concentrated our workouts(shoulders back arms). Most of the guys I worked with were also body builders and they COULD NOT handle my 54# recurve even thuogh they shot 60-70 pound compounds all day long. Hand shock I don't think you could hold a candle to most of them when it comes to strength or endurance(try working in their enviroment for a day. Hot700-1000 degrees or more at times with smoke so thick you can't see the light beam from flash light you are holding in your hand.)
So I would have to agree with Viper 1 on this start low and grow into higher wts.. Besides it is accuracy not draw wt. that kills the animal, and accuracy only comes from good form.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Handshock, it would probably surprise a manly man such as yourself, but I hunt with a 52# longbow and a 49# Warf.


Thats too bad, because according to Viper you are overbowed, and probably "jerk" your bow. BTW, I only shoot 45#.......:wink: 



> But the question originally what was should a beginning archer start with, not what should he eventually hunt with.


and the answer is the beginning archer should hunt with the weight that he can pull comfortly, and shoot consistantly, and not the weight some "experts" with weak upper bodies deem the proper starting weight. 




> There is a big difference between learning archery form and bowhunting.


Nonsense. I am a successful bowhunter because I have exact form. Here is a news flash for you. The bow and arrow was used for 2 things throughout history........killing people, and killing animals. To be good at these things men throughout the ages had to be focused on their form, since their lives, or existance depended on it

Today Bowhunting is the pinnacle of archery, since men rarely use the bow as a weapon of war , and with the availability of grocery stores, bowhunting is nowadays just a sport. 

However a good bowhunter will always be a better archer than a good field archer. Howard Hill proved that a good field hunter could not carry a good bowhuntings jock.........:wink: 




> Oh, and I'm secure enough in my manhood that I don't find it necessary to advocate heavy bows.


Well you better get that worked out with Viper, cause he says your overbowed........:wink:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> I would love to see how you fare against a 90 pound female Korean archer.


So in otherwords shooting accuracy can only be achieved by being born a 90# female Korean?..........and to think, all those great shots I make are for nothing.............:tongue: 





> HS - you are so far out of your league here as far as real factual knowledge is concerned, you have no idea how foolish you look.


Many folks who watch me shoot do agree that I am in a league of my own. Now, I do agree that I am out of the league of many of the self proclaimed interent "coaches" . The one's who who achieve success with a mouse, and keyboard.........:wink:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> So in otherwords shooting accuracy can only be achieved by being born a 90# female Korean?..........



Well Bill try to understand - still a legend in your own mind we see.

So now you can "hold your own" with some of the finest in the world.
Maybe you can point us to your last Olympic finish or any current records you hold?

Steve


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> I think most of you guys are stuck in your own little worlds. On one side, you have some pure target shooters and on the other end, you have guys who only hunt and think its all about pulling excessive weights.


While I can't speak for the paper punchers, I can say that we bowhunters never advocate pulling "excessive" weights. We simply advocate pulling the proper weight for the given person. 



> For most people the starting point is somewhere in between. If a guy has been shooting heavy wheels for a long time, then it is not that big of a deal to start them out in the low to mid-40's. I have two customers who's first stick bows were 50 and 55 respectively. Both were naturally big men and both shot heavy compounds. And both had absolutely no problem picking up and shooting these bows very well. Still I prefer to start even these kinds of customers out in the 40s.


You have just stated the main purpose of this thread........thankyou!



> For newbies who have never shot. I would not even consider letting a newbie start at more than 35 and preferably 30 lbs. Some even less than that. And some of those folks were strong enough to move up in weight very quickly while maintaining good form.


Then you go and say something like this............:wink: 

You see, to suggest that an athletic, muscular man who can easily draw, and hold, and shoot accurately , a bow that is 45#, start with a bow that is 30#, is simply incorrect. A good archery coach evaluates the individual before making blanket suggestions.

I have helped many beginners start off, and the first thing I do is fit them to the right tackle, not a generic one size fits all tackle 



> There are a lot of different folks getting into stickbows these day. I tend to stock more entry level bows in the 30-35 range, but some folks can naturally shoot a bit heavier. And yes, even a few can pull back and maintain good shooting form at weights that some of you cringe at.
> 
> There is no blanket philosophy for all these different folks


I agree with this..........:wink:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I think you got it Mark!
> Banned repeatedly from every board on the net, if so.
> 
> Steve


Jeez........if you guys have a problem with Bill, why not just pick up the phone and call him. He lives in MD, and is in the phone book. Or maybe you guys just prefer to cackle about him in the internet.........:wink:


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)




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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> I believe there is, here's why. Part of an instructor's job and more so a coache's job is to adapt to the feedback he get's from his students/athletes. That's the reason for the #35 pound rule, if some want to call it that


. 

and since the vast majority of experienced archers, and hunters have started out with bows heavier than 35#, with no ill effects, it clearly points that you are not interested in the majority of feedback given. There is no "35# rule". That is simply a creation of a vocal minority in archery. The fact is, archery success was being achieved for the past 60 years with starting bows heavier than 35#.

However, I do agree that men who are more naturally weak, or who are in poor physical shape may indeed have to start with 30# bows. The fact is many American men are in dreadful physical shape compared to the rest of the world, but even then a 40-50# is easily drawn.


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## Alan in GA (Oct 21, 2005)

*well,,,?*

If you are fully capable of shooting and hunting with a 72# bow,,and have shot it for years,,is it UNmanly to try a new bow that is a 60# max bow? Would it be UNwise to TRY a 60?# bow even tho you normally shoot a higher poundage? Is it WRONG to TRY a lighter bow to see IF your form,,shooting characteristics improve in some ways?
I am VERY anxious to try a 60# bow,,it just seems like a good idea,,and I am of the belief [it could change] that shooting a 60# bow a LOT MORE each evening session 'might' be a good thing!
It does not hurt to TRY SOMETHING NEW, does it?
Hope I don't stir the pot,,but that's my thinking on this "poundage" matter. 
Got a ROSS 331 coming, it's a 70# model,,and also am getting an order for a new set of 60# limbs for it too. Gonna find out a bit more on this poundage theory.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> I had no clue that me being a man had ANYTHING to do with my passion for a sport , at a weight a can handle and be a productive game harvester as well as a target shooter to stay in shape for hunting seasons here in Florida.


It doesn't. There are plenty of ladies who can start out drawing bows heavier than 35#....Lets not be sexist here........:wink: 





> What can be said is that one person who is physically capable to do their best every day with the gifts that they were given is up to them.


Amen!!!!........That is the whole purpose of this thread!!!!. If one guy can easily begin with a 45# bow, why should he have to be shamed into shooting a 35# bow to make a weaker guy feel better????. 




> As well as being a "man"... nothing more ego-stroking than to have a torn rotater cuff or blown shoulder after two seasons of a sport you love and have all your life due to that fact someone is asking questions about your personal choices and the gear you are comfortable with (let alone successful!)


I agree. That is why I teach that one should begin with a weight that he can easily draw, hold , and release with consistent accuracy. 




> My back and shoulders are in great shape from my 50# bow and yes i did work my way to fifty pounds..i think thats the best way to improve my strength as not to put stress on my body and REMAIN healthy and successful.



Well said. Sadly there are some "coaches" on this forum that claim that your 50# bow is too heavy, and that you will "jerk" your shots. I started out with a 50# bow, and was very comfortable with it. Through the years I shot some bows that were 70#+ . Due to a fall I now shoot 45#. On average through the years, I would say I shot about 58#. 

In conversations with todays top bowyers like Rob Lee, Ron Pittsley, Ken Beck, Wes Wallace, Dale Stahl, Dick Robertson, and Bob Morrison, they all agree that bows between 50-55# are the average for today, and that 45# is the average starting point for most men.




> Im in it for the long haul ! Not to impress someone with my draw weight
> Any idea how many recurves i have obtained from them being to heavy? LOTS !!


Again, I agree.Since my fall, I realize I can no longer shoot the heavier bows. I have sold off 4 bows that were 55#+ this past year. 




> My son started with a 15# bow..working his way to 50# one day when he can handle it.Being secure in his manhood did that for him


Good for him. 





> This sport doesnt need anymore negative press and some brain dead person putting draw weights out there as guide lines is a joke..Im not hunting targets and at 50#s i have several clean pass-through kills to my name.


I totally agree!......That is why I started this thread. It is a joke to suggest that every new beginner start with a bow between 25# and 35# like "some" have in this forum. I am not a target hunter either, and I take offense when some paper puncher claims that my 45# recurve is too heavy, or that my buddies who hunt with 50# bows are slobs who can't shoot.




> Maybe being a man is enjoying life and not worrying about others abilities,just your own !


Amen!!!!........If you can only handle 30#, then shoot 30#, but if you can handle 55# then shoot 55#, and don't let no internet "coach" tell you you can't



> As ive said before, i also stalk in my suede slippers and my 12 point P&Y White Tail Deer was shot with my less-than-manly 50# recurve at 13yds..
> If you need any help be sure to let me know. I would love to show you how to enjoy the hunt without all the hype and the flexing and the downgrading of fellow archers
> Lets leave the flexing and boasting for the gym shall we ?


I fee a real kinship to you.........During the rut of 03 I shot a huge 8 point Maryland whitetail off the ground, from 11 yards. I shot him with a handmade cedar arrow, shot from a osage longbow I built myself. I was dressed in my wool clothes, and leather boots. A real primitive hunt.

That bow was 44#, and shot slow compared to my glass recurves, but it was the method I used , that made that my most memorable hunt. I have killed bigger deer, with heavier bows, but that was my fondest hunt ever.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> I have been pulling 52# long bow and a 54# recurve for about twenty years. This after three major back surgeries, but this year a shoulder pull and I am lucky if I could pull a 30# bos more than 5 times without pain, and I am in the gym everyday so strength is not the problem.


I here ya. I took a fall while driving deer for some stand hunters late in the season 2 years ago. It never has totally healed. I now shoot a 45#. Years ago I shoot bows that were 30# heavier. 




> I have worked my whole life as a firefighter and upper body stregth was needed everyday of the week, so that is where we concentrated our workouts(shoulders back arms). Most of the guys I worked with were also body builders and they COULD NOT handle my 54# recurve even thuogh they shot 60-70 pound compounds all day long.


I too was an amatuer power lifter, and body builder. While I could easily draw, and hold a 75# recurve, I could not break over the 70# compounds my buddies shot. 




> Hand shock I don't think you could hold a candle to most of them when it comes to strength or endurance(try working in their enviroment for a day.
> Hot700-1000 degrees or more at times with smoke so thick you can't see the light beam from flash light you are holding in your hand.)


Yes, and I am sure you can base this simply on an internet discussion about bow weight. It's very easy to judge a man you know nothing about, but I guess this is how you comfort yourself.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> If you are fully capable of shooting and hunting with a 72# bow,,and have shot it for years,,is it UNmanly to try a new bow that is a 60# max bow?


Not at all. Since a 60# bow has plenty of HP to punch through game , it would not be an issue. However, if you could easily draw a 50# bow, it would not be a wise idea to shoot a 30# bow.


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## John49 (Feb 25, 2006)

Handshock, I find your last statement interesting. You stated, " I too was an amatuer power lifter, and body builder. While I could easily draw, and hold a 75# recurve, I could not break over the 70# compounds my buddies shot." Now I don't claim to have all the expertise and talent that you do, but I have hunted, punched paper, and spent some considerable time in the gym in my 58 years. To me, 75 lbs was always heavier than 70 lbs. Could you explain how one could draw and hold 75 lbs, but could not break over a bow at 70 lbs? Thank you.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

John49 said:


> Handshock, I find your last statement interesting. You stated, " I too was an amatuer power lifter, and body builder. While I could easily draw, and hold a 75# recurve, I could not break over the 70# compounds my buddies shot." Now I don't claim to have all the expertise and talent that you do, but I have hunted, punched paper, and spent some considerable time in the gym in my 58 years. To me, 75 lbs was always heavier than 70 lbs. Could you explain how one could draw and hold 75 lbs, but could not break over a bow at 70 lbs? Thank you.



I'd be glad to........Since you have a background yourself in the gym, you understand that muscles have to be used to grow strong. When I was 19 I had a chance to train with 2 guys who were great bench pressers. Since I always struggled in the BP I figured these guys could help me. What I quickly noticed was that these guys , while having powerful upper bodies, had weak, and spindly legs, that could not even squat a measly 150#.

What that taught me is, is that muscles unused, do not gain mass, and strenth.

The same is true for the muscles that draw a bow, be it a recurve, or a compound. With that said, it must be pointed out that the bows are the exact opposite wrt how they draw.

A recurve bow gains weight in graduation. In other words, when you begin draw a recurve, your are faced with a starting weight. Each inch that you draw increases the weight about 2.5 to 3 #, so that by the time you have reached your full draw you are holding the peak weight of the bow.

This type of weight increase allows for a very smooth, and uniform pull, kind of like using machines that use rubber bands, or belts. Within a short period the archer can make tremendous gains.

The compound bow is a totally different animal. While it offers a drastic let off at full draw, the beginning of the draw, the first inch in fact, is the full weight of the bow. 

With an 80# recurve bow, that increases 2.5# per inch, you are only pulling about 30# at the first inch of the draw. With a 80# compound you are pulling 80# at the first of the draw. 

This is why I struggled with drawing a heavy compound, because I never shot them. I never developed the muscles to draw them easily. In the same way, my 75# recurve was all but impossible for the guy who easily drew the compound, because his muscles were used to holding a much lighter weight due to let off. 

Hope that helps


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

handshock.i have no idea who you are...dont really care.. all viper ever says about bow weight pertains to beginners of the tradbow. and In my mind is right, if you are a new shooter the lower weight will help you develope proper back tension and form, then move up...i. dont see what the big vendetta with Viper is?.....He has helped many people on thsi site, including myself. i started with 38lbs..Now i use an 80lb longbow at 29.25" draw. how cani do that without hurting myself?..i learned proper form with a lighter bow when starting......


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> handshock.i have no idea who you are...dont really care..


My, you seem to be a pleasant fellow.........:wink: 




> all viper ever says about bow weight pertains to beginners of the tradbow.


as do I. However, unlike Viper, I do not suggest that every beginning archer start with a 30# bow. What I teach is that every beginner should start with a bow he can easily draw, and shoot, whether it is a 30# bow, or a 50# bow.




> and In my mind is right,


I am ok with that.really I am.......:wink: 




> if you are a new shooter the lower weight will help you develope proper back tension and form, then move up...


I totally agree. However, if as a new shooter you can start with a a 45-50# bow, and easily develope proper back tension, and form, you can move up from there. Was does this bother you????





> i. dont see what the big vendetta with Viper is?.....


I have nothing against Viper. Don't know who he is, and never heard of him outside this forum. I just am a stickler for sound instruction, and he doesn't provide that in my opinion. Nothing personal at all. 




> He has helped many people on thsi site, including myself. i started with 38lbs..Now i use an 80lb longbow at 29.25" draw.


OK, then please answer these questions.

How long have you shot a traditional bow???

How long did it take you to go from shooting a 38# bow, to a 80# bow???

How many different weight graduations did you go through, that is did you make jumps of 5#, or 10#, or so on????

How many different bows did you have to buy to go from shooting 38# to 80#?????

What do you have to say about Vipers claim that you are way overbowed, and "jerk" your string????



Your answers should be quite interesting.............:wink:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> i started with 38lbs..Now i use an 80lb longbow at 29.25" draw. how cani do that without hurting myself?..i learned proper form with a lighter bow when starting......


I used to hunt with a 83# longbow years ago, and recurves almost as heavy. However I started with a 50# recurve. How did I do that without hurting myself????

Simple, I learned proper form with a lighter bow. In my case it was a 50# bow. In your case it was 38# bow. A man just needs to use what he can handle.


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

tradbow : 3 years
to 80lb : 3 years

went from 38lb-45lb-50lb-55lb-65lb-80lb

Viper never said i jerk or pluck.because i learned proper form first......

Yeah everyione is different, but it is safe to say the majority or new archers fall soundly into Vipers suggestions...so let it go dude.....could I ahev started at 50lbs.yeah sure. i bench 335lb and do pulldowns at 260lbs....amd i glad i started at 38lbs?..hell yes.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Bill - 

It's clear you enjoy the arguement more than facts, that usually progresses to personal attacks, on your part. That's why you've been banned from just about every archery forum on the net, including this one, several times. I guess it's just a matter or time, now too.

As others have pointed out, my recommendations are to new shooters. I haven't met anyone IN PERSON who has learned to shoot successfully with a #50 bow. A lot have tried and most have either lowered the weight, gave up or became mediocre at best. That's my experiene in nearly 40 years and more than a few thousand students. Seems like most real coaches from JOAD to Olympic levels echo that finding. Not sure where your info is coming from.

I do find it interesting that in one post you said that a heavy compound shooter might be able to start with a heavier stickbow than someone who's never shoot at all. Later you go into detail on why a #70 compound is more difficult for a stickbow shooter than a #75 recurve - same old Bill. 

Keep twisting things around to get your jollies, most folks here have your number already. :cocktail: 

Viper1 out.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> tradbow : 3 years
> to 80lb : 3 years
> 
> went from 38lb-45lb-50lb-55lb-65lb-80lb


Seems like an awful expensive way to get to 80#, I mean a new bow every 6 months..........:wink: 



> Viper never said i jerk or pluck.because i learned proper form first......


Proper form can be learned by anyone who shoots a bow that fits them. 



> Yeah everyione is different, but it is safe to say the majority or new archers fall soundly into Vipers suggestions...


No it is not safe to say that, because the majority of good archers learned to shoot bows between 45# and 55# long before became an internet "coach", myself included.






> so let it go dude.....


Excuse me "dude", but you responded to me..........:wink: 




> could I ahev started at 50lbs.yeah sure.


Then why didn't you????




> i bench 335lb and do pulldowns at 260lbs....amd i glad i started at 38lbs?..hell yes.


Again, I respect a man who knows his limitations. Just don't expect me to limit myself to yours........."dude".........:wink:


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

Handshock.....you are a waste of space and time... go back to the religious forum please. not awefully expensive if you buy used bows for 100$ a piece then sell them and re-use the money.... it is obvious that you dont know your head from you poop-hole....not one person here agree's with you......and i've read every single post you've made on this forum... 98.9% of them are just to argue.and yes i made that statistic up.kinda like you make up many of your "facts"....dude.....do me a favor.there is an ignore button on your screen...use it................just like bad gas....you'll pass with time..


oh yeah and dont winke at me


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

jb - 

Really don't want this non-sence to go on any longer than it has to. The guy feeds off this stuff, so don't play his game. Interestingly before the "Internet coaching" stuff average bow weights were considerably less than they are today. There were a few guys in every club with the heavies like you're using, but I'm talking about 2% on average. Those guys did it the same way you did: start light, learn how to shoot and then increase when ready. Can't have too many bows either 

Viper1 out.


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## rjtfroggy (Dec 5, 2006)

Yes, and I am sure you can base this simply on an internet discussion about bow weight. It's very easy to judge a man you know nothing about, but I guess this is how you comfort yourself.[/QUOTE]

Handshock I never judge a book by its cover, but the more I read your writing the more I see you must be a legendary coach in your area, many many students waiting for you to spend time with them.
Proper form comes from practice and lots of it, good shooting comes from repetitive shooting and if you get tired too quickley(being over bowed) niether one of these can be achieved, So here again it comes down to lighter bows (less tirering) for longer practice sessions, and building of strength and gradually growing into a bow that is in your own personal comfort zone. 
Allthough you and viper1 have valid points I for one have to agree with viper1 on this issue.
Didn't mean to judge or offend you just making a point on what these guys do and how they go about it. Two of these guys lift competively and can not comfortably pull a long bow more than a couple of times, and belive me it has nothing to do with size or strength.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> As others have pointed out, my recommendations are to new shooters.


As are mine




> I haven't met anyone IN PERSON who has learned to shoot successfully with a #50 bow


. 

Your limited exposure to successful archers does not change the fact that most of todays best archers started with bows between 45#-55#



> A lot have tried and most have either lowered the weight, gave up or became mediocre at best


. 

While an exceptionally weak person, a woman, or a child may have to start with a 30# bow, it is untruthful to state that the majority of successful archers who started with heavier bows are mediocore. You should base your person experiences with yourself Viper, and not others. 




> That's my experiene in nearly 40 years and more than a few thousand students.


Sorry Viper, but in the whose who of archery today, your name is basically unheard of outside the internet forums you "coach" on. There are hundreds of hits on this thread of mine, but counting them as "students" would not be right. The Truth be told, you would be better served sitting as a student yourself for awhile. You just might learn something.........:wink: 




> Seems like most real coaches from JOAD to Olympic levels echo that finding. Not sure where your info is coming from.


Experience, that of men like myself, Byron Ferguson, Bob Lee, Fred Bear, Howard Hill, John Schulz, Dean Torges, Jason Wesbrock, Denny Sturgis, Gene and Barry Wensel, Mike Fodora, and so on.


> I do find it interesting that in one post you said that a heavy compound shooter might be able to start with a heavier stickbow than someone who's never shoot at all.


Absolutely. A compounder who draws a heavy bow, usually can start out with a 45# to 50# recurve, but then again so can the average non shooter.




> Later you go into detail on why a #70 compound is more difficult for a stickbow shooter than a #75 recurve - same old Bill.


Absolutely. I explained it very clearly. This is why you need to sit down and listen when someone is trying to teach you............:wink:


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

"Experience, that of men like myself, Byron Ferguson, Bob Lee, Fred Bear, Howard Hill, John Schulz, Dean Torges, Jason Wesbrock, Denny Sturgis, Gene and Barry Wensel, Mike Fodora, and so on."......

hahah, you put yourself in the same group with these guys?!!?!?!?..hyahaha.. now i know what your problem is..you think too highly of yourself........ Jason is a frequesnt visitor here, and is one heck of a shooter... hahah..oh yeah and as good a shot as denny Sturgis Jr. is, check out the pluck when he shoots..haha....... i find it funny that you are a nobody adn your calling into question people like viper who are well known successful coaches in teh northeast..!!....troll....trolll..................trolllllllll!!!!!


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Handshock I never judge a book by its cover, but the more I read your writing the more I see you must be a legendary coach in your area, many many students waiting for you to spend time with them.


Not as many as Viper claims to have.........:wink: 







> Proper form comes from practice and lots of it, good shooting comes from repetitive shooting and if you get tired too quickley(being over bowed) niether one of these can be achieved,


I totally agree. However just because you may get tired quicker than another guy shooting the same weight bow, why should he have to lower his ability to equal yours. WHY don't you address this question??????????????





> So here again it comes down to lighter bows (less tirering) for longer practice sessions, and building of strength and gradually growing into a bow that is in your own personal comfort zone.


Again I agree. However "light" is a relative term. What is "light" for one man, may not be light for others. I do not want to live in a world where I have to lower my ability to make someone feel better about theirs. 







> Allthough you and viper1 have valid points I for one have to agree with viper1 on this issue.


The difference between Viper and I is very simple. We both suggest that an archer start with a bow weight that allows good form to develope. However Viper bases the starting weight based upon his own physical limitations.

As I said before, I started with a 50# bow. However, there are many guys who started with heavier bows, and developed great form. Would it be fair for me to claim that because they didn't start with what I did, they are inferior?. Of course not.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> hahah, you put yourself in the same group with these guys?!!?!?!?..hyahaha.. now i know what your problem is..you think too highly of yourself........


I am nowhere in the league of guys like Hill, and Bob Lee, however I have managed to kill over 100 whitetail deer with traditional bows and arrows through the years. I have built over 300 bows, and I still can hold very tight groups out at hunting distances, and those who know me personally respect my abilities despite failing health. I have coached many in the art of bow building, and shooting. Dean Torges, and Mike Fedora are close friends of mine. 

Terry Green, the owner and founder of Trad Gang.com shot at his first whitetail deer with a traditional bow a half mile from my home. An osage longbow I made for him back in 1999. He owns 3 of my bows. 

I was hunting long before you were born. In fact I have a son who is about your age. At 25 he has close to 50 deer with a bow and arrow, but he started early, and we have very liberal seasons now. 

Like yourself, I consider him a boy, with much to learn for now. In time he will surpass me, as I am sure you will. However at this point he is too busy running my electrical contracting business , and caring for my grandsons to spend time on the internet , back sassing his elders...........:wink:


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## captaincaveman (Sep 27, 2005)

*don't feed the troll*









Josh


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

sounds like your son is successful both as a professional and a hunter... good for him, and you. well i've spent a few years in med school, so i can sit at a computer and be sassy!!...it sounds like you are very knowledgable and a great teacher, however what you are saying are the same claims you critisiced Viper for, being an Internet coach i believe it was?.........

its a shame because you seem like you have a lot to offer this site however you completly discredit yourself with what seems liek the in-ability to listen to others... its a shame.


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## warped Arrow (Sep 20, 2005)

"While I can't speak for the paper punchers, I can say that we bowhunters never advocate pulling "excessive" weights."

First, please dont blanket all bow hunters into one group.

Second, if the above quote is factual, then why are there more 70+# "hunting" bows than 50# or 40#. In reality, I belive, and please correct me if I am wrong, a 50# will take everything in N.A., With proper shot placement. 

Hunting is about more than the#'s you pull. The same is true for targets. Both are far apart. but if you combine them both, you will have a great hunter that knows his/her limits.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Guys,...

Bill is back... 30&in is back, and all of this other alias names... I huge troll that lives off of self made facts and destroys what archery is all about.

Some of us older folks dread the day he comes back on the forum...(after he has been kicked off). This usually means he is back on his drinking binge again...

 Dwayne


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

i have gone from:

(short bar-berry bows)15#-20#-30#-40#-
(longbows and recurves)50#-60#-
(war bow)85#-
(back to long and recurve)55#


of all of them, 85 was nothing more than a pastime (a phase i had outgrown rapidly), which finally broke a few weeks ago, the short bows were as well, before i began big game hunting, and finally the 50#-60# ers, where i have no problem staying, though i may pick up a 70# if godzilla attakcs my home town:mg::wink:.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Handshock said:


> I am nowhere in the league of guys like Hill, and Bob Lee, however I have managed to kill over 100 whitetail deer with traditional bows and arrows through the years. I have built over 300 bows
> 
> Terry Green, the owner and founder of Trad Gang.com shot at his first whitetail deer with a traditional bow a half mile from my home. An osage longbow I made for him back in 1999. He owns 3 of my bows.



May I see a few pics of the traditional bows you have made? Do you have a website showcasing the products you have produced? I would honestly like to see them.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Great advice from Viper



> That's why you've been banned from just about every archery forum on the net, including this one, several times. I guess it's just a matter or time, now too.


Short time after the report.

Steve


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Well wait till he can at least post some pics of some bows he's made before he gets banned!:mg:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> May I see a few pics of the traditional bows you have made? Do you have a website showcasing the products you have produced? I would honestly like to see them.


Alan, I do not have a website, in that I never built any bows for sale. However, here is a little of my history. I started building bows bows back before the internet existed. I cut my teeth on red elm, shagbark hickory, and black locust selfbows.

As I progressed I became strictly a builder of of osage longbows, flat bows, and static recurves. Then I branched out into building bamboo backed osage, and yew bows. I supplied many bowyers with wood, including the likes of Paul Brunner, Murray Gaskins, Tommy Thompson, and Curt Brisky. Mickey Lotz, and Dean Torges also crafted bows from my staves, which back in the 90's were very nice.

Most of my bows have been donated to various charities. Years ago I donated many of them to Benefit for kids, and various other archery charities. Many others were donated to local people who either could not afford a bow of their own, or simply appreciated the old way of bowmaking. 

I would also add that many friends and associates through the years have recieved my bows as gifts..... People like Terry Green, Steve Pray, Steve Rupert, Rick Nixon, and so forth. Several were auctioned off in silent raffles. Simply put their are hundreds of them floating around. 

A few years ago nerve damage in my hands from lymes disease forced me to retire from bowmaking. I still help local guys get started though. I helped a local compound shooter build his first bow last year. He used it this year to take his first tradition kill. It was very uplifting. 

Thank you for asking though.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

DwayneR said:


> Guys,...
> 
> Bill is back... 30&in is back, and all of this other alias names... I huge troll that lives off of self made facts and destroys what archery is all about.
> 
> ...



Well Dwayne, what can I say????

The internet is a very great thing, and can be used for great things. Regardless of the fact that you have used it for a platform to "attempt" to slander me means nothing.

What you need to know is this.........I have tasted life fully. I have enjoyed the love of only one woman for 27 years. The fruit of our love has yeilded me not only children who love me, but grandchildren who love me.

I have been blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ to go and preach His Gospel to the Word. For His Good Purpose He has provided me a stable business, a beautiful little farm, and years of good living, and countless sunrises from countless mornings among His Creation.

He has blessed my hands, and strenthened my heart. Granted, I must endure the occasional barbs of men like yourself who cast low blows as I move forward, but know this Dwayne.........If you were to live another 100 years, you will *NEVER* see what I have seen, you will *NEVER* feel what I have felt, you will *NEVER *love like I have loved, you will *NEVER* taste life as I have tasted it, and you will *NEVER* know the peace, and security that I have in my family, my friends, and my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

THAT in itself is why I will not even bother to answer your charges against me, and will simply say.............You are in my prayers.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

This guys just a clown. Ignore his posts. He is the great white hunter and archer and shooter and everyone should be like him.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

njshadowwalker said:


> This guys just a clown. Ignore his posts. He is the great white hunter and archer and shooter and everyone should be like him.


Ah yes, the wisdom of a 23 year old boy. Quite the treasure.........:wink:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> Terry Green, the owner and founder of Trad Gang.com shot at his first whitetail deer with a traditional bow a half mile from my home. An osage longbow I made for him back in 1999. He owns 3 of my bows.


And he has banned you for life.
At least 2 of the "friends" you list have publicly distanced themselves from you. Other then their strong repeated suggestions that you seek help.

To continually seek to reenter communities that your own actions have caused your exile from speak volumes on your character - and it is not the character you claim in the above self description. I hope you someday get the peace you claim to have.

Steve


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## brianwalkera (Dec 29, 2006)

Im starting with a 50# recurve and im doing fine. I agree now that i have been shooting the bow that i might have been better off to start with a 40#. My point is that i think you can make it work i just dont have the money or time to be buying and selling bows. Also i practice daily religously when i get home from work i pull the bow back tons of times even when not shooting arrows. now if i did'nt practice as much this 50# bow might ended up owning me, i just refuse to let it. My form might take longer to acheive but i have so much fun flinging arrows, that i dont really care that much about acuracy. Oh and by the way, Viper has helped me with some posts. Do you do that Handshock? :darkbeer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gentlemen -

If I may make a humble suggestion. I think the guys who been around a while know Bill's (30&in / garden boy etc) history and where he's coming from. If we just ignore his posts, then these threads won't drag on incessently and waste everyone's time. There's an ignore button in the user profiles page and it's just as easy to virtually ignore someone on the net. Life's too short, and I for one don't want to play this game - again.

Viper1 out.


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## katman (Jun 5, 2006)

here here viper1


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## warped Arrow (Sep 20, 2005)

On a more serious note.... How can you tell that it is time to go up in #age? How many #'s shold you jump? 2? 5? 10?


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

warped Arrow said:


> On a more serious note.... How can you tell that it is time to go up in #age? How many #'s shold you jump? 2? 5? 10?


I don't know anything about there being a "time" anyone "should" go up in poundage...someone could be very content shooting a poundage that THEY feel is right for decades. But if YOU decide you want to go up in weight, a 5-pound increment would be fine, but most would probably tell you to make sure you're doing well at one poundage before going up


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> And he has banned you for life.
> At least 2 of the "friends" you list have publicly distanced themselves from you. Other then their strong repeated suggestions that you seek help.


This is not true at all. While Terry was on vacation a few years ago, Penny Banks , one of the mods on the forum removed my posts saying that they had too much "Christian overtone", and that offended him because he was an atheist. In a later conversation, with Terry, he offered to reinstate my posting ability. 

However due to my respect for my friend, I decided not to post on his forum. That was 3 years ago. I consider Terry Green a friend of mine. He has spent time in my home, and in the woods with me. I mentored him when he first got into traditional archery, and I wish him well with the success of Tradgang. 

As for you "Steve B".....I don't know who you are. Never heard of you, nor have I met you. I just assume you are one of the many ankle biters I have encountered in my life. 

In the big picture of the archery world you are a nobody, and the only way you can even hope to get recognition is to attack those who have accomplished more than you ever will.

Simply put, your punishment is just being you...........:wink:


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Im starting with a 50# recurve and im doing fine.


Glad to hear it




> I agree now that i have been shooting the bow that i might have been better off to start with a 40#. My point is that i think you can make it work i just dont have the money or time to be buying and selling bows


. 

Exactly!. You'll do fine with 50# bow. It only takes a few weeks to get used to drawing and holding a bow. As I have said earlier the majority of successful male archers have started with 45#-55# bows, while women, children, and weaker men start with bows in 30# range. 






> Also i practice daily religously when i get home from work i pull the bow back tons of times even when not shooting arrows. now if i did'nt practice as much this 50# bow might ended up owning me, i just refuse to let it.


That is exactly what I teach a newcomer to do. 





> My form might take longer to acheive but i have so much fun flinging arrows, that i dont really care that much about acuracy.


Accuracy will come. Form is what you should work on. Glad to see you are actually following the correct path in archery, rather than the mis-direction given here by some of the "coaches"




> Oh and by the way, Viper has helped me with some posts.


He may help you with posts, but according to you, you have disregarded his advice on starting bow weights, and I say.......Good for you!!!. You see according to Viper, you will never be accurate with that bow. Throughout his posts he suggests that men who start with bows over 30# become "mediocore" shooters, who can't hit targets, and who "jerk" their bows.





> Do you do that Handshock?


This thread was started to help guys just like yourself. It was started to teach the new comer that he doesn't have to start with a childs bow to gain good form, and accuracy. Granted, a few ankle biters have made personal attacks against me, when I refuted their teachings, but that doesn't change anything, and is very typical.

Fact is, you are doing fine by yourself....Keep up the good work!


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Handshock said:


> As for you "Steve B".....I don't know who you are. Never heard of you, nor have I met you. I just assume you are one of the many ankle biters I have encountered in my life.
> 
> In the big picture of the archery world you are a nobody, and the only way you can even hope to get recognition is to attack those who have accomplished more than you ever will.
> 
> Simply put, your punishment is just being you...........:wink:


 

Now that is just...oh my. Resorting to personal attacks and name calling, Handshock? 

"Ankle biters?" 

"A nobody?" 

Explain yourself and justify your caustic, vitriolic comments, Handshock


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

"Ankle biters?" 

"A nobody?" 

Explain yourself and justify your caustic, vitriolic comments, Handshock




> Now that is just...oh my. Resorting to personal attacks and name calling, Handshock?


I find it odd that you were not at all offended by the following comments that Dwayne made about me yesterday..........



> Bill is back... 30&in is back, and all of this other alias names... I huge troll that lives off of self made facts and destroys what archery is all about.
> 
> Some of us older folks dread the day he comes back on the forum...(after he has been kicked off). This usually means he is back on his drinking binge again...



As for your other questions.......



> "Ankle biters?"
> 
> "A nobody?"
> 
> Explain yourself and justify your caustic, vitriolic comments, Handshock



Let me explain. An "ankle biter" is someone who has nothing really important to say, or contribute, so opts to nip at the heels of those with a more important message.

Now, I would suggest this to you. Either stick to the topic of the thread, or go bite someone elses ankles. I have addressed your posts here publicly. So, if you want a further explanation of why I say what I do, feel free to call 443-340-3242. I'd be glad to clarify myself to you, and anyone else for that matter.

Again, stay on topic. With that said, tell us *your* background in archery. Tell us why your opinion should matter. Start with the first time you ever picked up a bow, till present. Tell us why we should listen to anything you have to say. 

Let's see if you are willing to expose yourself.........:wink:


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

If there are any moderators on this forum, could you please shut this guy up!

Dave


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

Dave T said:


> If there are any moderators on this forum, could you please shut this guy up!
> 
> Dave


Dave, I'll bet you were a hall monitor in school weren't you????..........:wink:


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

you know what handshock, you keep asking for peoples "background" in archery..does a person really need one?...your acting like a jackass...yet you ahve the guts to take a jab at a 23 y/o because he is 23?...meanwhile your acting like a 7 y/o who jsut got his magic cards taken away........grow up DUDE!!!!...yeah i'm asking ferret about you (mickey)...you dont seem right in the head..oh and with al these bows you make, and amazing deer you've killed and your fantastic son.i honestly want to see some pictures..also want to see some picks of your statics.....maybe a pic with you and some of your famous "friends"..i'm sure they would lvoe to know your throwing their names around and dont want to be associated with you.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> you know what handshock, you keep asking for peoples "background" in archery..does a person really need one?...your acting like a jackass...yet you ahve the guts to take a jab at a 23 y/o because he is 23?...


No, I take a jab at a 23 year old boy, because he acts like a boy. Also, I only ask ankle biters for their backgrounds.....:wink: 








> yeah i'm asking ferret about you (mickey)...you dont seem right in the head..oh and with al these bows you make, and amazing deer you've killed and your fantastic son.i honestly want to see some pictures..also want to see some picks of your statics.....maybe a pic with you and some of your famous "friends"..i'm sure they would lvoe to know your throwing their names around and dont want to be associated with you.


Mickey is an old friend of mine. When you speak to him, ask him about his bow "contrary". He'll explain the history of it to you. I'll cut you some slack. You are just a boy. When you grow, and mature into a man, then I'll be rough with you. As for my son. Well, lets just say that he is much different than you .............:wink:


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

well if that works for you then i will treat you how you are acting.do you need your diaper changed?...maybe you need a bottle?.......there all better.....and yes i'm different then your son..........I have the sack to call out people who are being fools and have no idea what they are talking about, and not jsut nodding and do what they are told just because the person who says it is older.........go ahead old man be rough with me.....you talk a big game but you walk has a bad limb...last post on the subject.....


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> well if that works for you then i will treat you how you are acting.do you need your diaper changed?...maybe you need a bottle?.......there all better.....


Your back sassing of your elders just shows the moral decay of American youth. It is clear that you have had a very poor upbringing, by parents who obviously did not slap your mouth as a little boy, now you have become an obnoxious big boy.




> and eys i'm different then your son..........I have the sack to call out people who are being fools and have no idea what they are talking about, and not jsut nodding and do what they are told just because the person who says it is older.........


Unlike yourself, my son does not have to post a picture of himself on the internet with his shirt off, {even though he is an up and coming power lifter }and state the # of deer that he has killed. I think your "sack" goes as far as your keyboard..........:wink: 





> go ahead old man be rough with me.....you talk a big game but you walk has a bad limb...last post on the subject.....


Like I said, when you become I man I'll be rough with you........:wink: 

Now go away kid, ya bug me.............


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

not me in picture....dont need my father to brag for me......:thumbs_up stick that up your butt.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

WA - 

Sorry, missed your post amongst all the non-sense. You go up in weight when two criteria are met, first you are totally comfortable with your current weight, meaning your form is solid, both to you AND to an observer and the arrows are meeting your accuracy requirements and second, you actually need (or want) a higher weight. 

Usually about #5 is a safe jump, the only thing what should change with the higher weight is the number of arrows you can get off correctly before fatigue sets in. If form suffers with the first few arrows at the higher weight, then the weight is too much, back off. Seeing as you're geting into FITA bows, the usual trick for "newbies" is to start with the limbs in full deflex, ie the lightest weight and once comphy, then add reflex (weight) and see how you do. You should get about #3-4 variance from most rigs. 

Viper1 out.


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## msubu21 (Oct 25, 2005)

Handshock said:


> As for you "Steve B".....I don't know who you are. Never heard of you, nor have I met you. I just assume you are one of the many ankle biters I have encountered in my life.
> 
> In the big picture of the archery world you are a nobody, and the only way you can even hope to get recognition is to attack those who have accomplished more than you ever will.
> 
> Simply put, your punishment is just being you...........:wink:


I have been following this thread since its beginning with no intent of ever posting, because as an Archer...I have no dog in this fight, But as a Christian I do. As a Coach, a mentor to archers having many years experience under your belt....Why would you call "Steve B" a "nobody" and say his only punishment is just being himself. Why not use your knowledge to uplift people and encourage? If someone is against you/your teaching, use some Christian teaching and turn the other cheek. I just read in another post where you stated "someone had a very poor upbring." As a follower of Jesus....he does not require his servants to pass judgement...thats his job. I don't ever remember him calling someone a "nobody." From your many life experiences.....I'm sure you have learned that in order to gain respect, you have to be respectful first...and you sir have shown no respect toward your fellow Archer, or fellow man.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

I have been hesitant to get into this one, but I think there is actually some good info mixed in with the crap in this thread.

Being a longbow shooter myself, and having taught newbies and sold a fair number of starter bows in my day here is where I see this thread:

Originaly, the post (at least I think it was) was that the weight of a starter bow should be whatever the person can comfortably draw and shoot without undue form deterioration with fatigue. That could be a 20lb bow for some and a 50lb for others. OK, I agree with that. I have handed a 35lb bow to some and they pull it so easily that I feel they could go up a bit and be happier with the increased performance. My general rule of thumb is if the person cannot fully draw and hold at anchor(and I mean a "good" anchor, not a "floating" one) for at least 10 seconds without seeing shaking or other form destroying movements then the bow is too heavy for them. Could they "work out" with a heavier bow and eventually be able to draw it? Sure. But in the mean time, they tend to hurt themselves, have poor form and groupings, and generaly find archery more of a chore than a joy and loose interest. I am a NASP instructor and we use a "string bow" as a teaching aid. This has 0lbs draw, but it excelent for building form before a bow is even ever picked up. I dont feel that the weight of the bow is any real issue in target archery. A bullseye with a 20lb bow is just as good as one with a 75lb bow. In hunting, my 45lb longbow kills a deer at 20 yards just as well as a 70lb modern compound. It is more about a razor sharp broadhead and a well placed arrow. Larger animals, and or longer ranges require a heavier bow. If you are cofident that you can take a50yrd shot at a moose, then more power to ya. I personaly dont choose to take those long shots, and deer is about as big as I need to go, so my 45lb bow is fine. 
I do take offense at me somehow being "less of a man" because I use a lighter bow. I have seen "some" archers do the ego thing by stating they shoot a 70lb bow and then only draw it back 24" and snap shoot it. At that point they are not pulling 70lbs and they are not holding it long enough to have form issues. Does that work for them? Sure. If you have to stand on one foot and cluck like a chicken to hit the target, do it. But this just means that what works for one person may not work for any others. 
When we have a new person looking to try archery, most of us will grab a light bow to start. Our focus is form, not arrow speed, penetration, distance, or even accuracy. Weather they are going to shoot in the Olympics or go Elk hunting, most everyone starts out the same way: 15yrds away from a large piece of paper. Once the basics are down, with a "light bow"(now that could mean a 55lb bow if they person is build like Arnold) THEN they can go to the 70lb hunting recurve if they want. 
Ultimately, I think it is as incorrect to say "everyone must start with a 30lb bow" (which I dont think anyone has said) as it is to say that coaches that use light starter equipment " base the starting weight based upon his own physical limitations." I feel that any coach that puts any undue pressure on his students to use hevier equipment than they are comfortable with needs to put down the bow and do something else and leave that kind of pressure off the archery range.

Wyvern


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

That was a lot of good advice wrapped into one post. Thanks for bringing things back on track, and I couldn't possibly agree more with what you said. :thumbs_up 



> Originaly, the post (at least I think it was) was that the weight of a starter bow should be whatever the person can comfortably draw and shoot without undue form deterioration with fatigue. That could be a 20lb bow for some and a 50lb for others.


All the personal nonsense aside, I honestly don't understand how that's even debatable. I think sometimes these threads turn into arguments for the sake of argument, common sense be damned.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern -

Given you're experience, how many new shooters have you seen start off correctly, form wise, with a #55 bow? (We both know the built like Arnold thing doesn't apply .) The #30/35 pound suggestion is based on the combined experience of most coaches from all levels, including yours, I'll bet.

While the "you can start with as heavy a bow as you're comfortable with" theory is sound on paper, I've yet to see anyone in person start that heavy and do well form wise. As I said ealier, and I think you echoed, you can easily go too heavy, a lot harder to go too light. Also, an often forgotten fact is that if you can effect a clean release with a super light bow, then you can do it with any bow up to your weight limit; hence your "sting bow".

When teaching, at the first sign of the shooter struggling, I have him take a break; when I see it a second time, the session is over for that day.


Viper1 out.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Viper:
To answer your question I may have to kick this thread off on another direction. If we define teaching "proper form" as being a multi stepped process from the stance to the followthru that requires at least a slight pause at each step (these pauses may not be a noticable "stop" at each step, but each step is being addressed independently from the previous step to the next). And we allow that the student is either gap shooting, aiming off the arrow tip, or using some form of sights, then no, I have never had anyone ever start with a 55lb bow and be consistant over multiple shots. If the shooter is strictly an instictive shooter, has a natural "form" that out of the box works for him, can "consistantly" hit the target over multiple shots, and is of a physical stature that allows him to be comfortable shooting a 55lb bow, then I would let him use a 55lb bow(note, that I have never done this)

IMO, most new people (again, that "not for everyone" thing) need to get the basics down first. These basics are pretty much universal and with some slight variance we all teach the same thing. The 30-35lb "standard" is there more as a guide line so we can quickly hand a bow to a person and get them shooting without having to worry that they may hurt themselves by using muscles they dont normaly use. This "guide line" is a good one and I agree with it. After a few shots, I may upgrade the person to a heavier bow, but as you said, it is easier to go up than down.

As a retailer of archery products I personaly have had to deal with the, as I call them, "Little League Archery Dad" who insists that his son go hunting with him in a few months and yells at the kid "Be a man, you can pull that!" when he is strugling to pull back the minimum hunting weight on a bow. I generaly tell the father to lighten up and that with that attitude you will end up having a frustrated kid with a pulled shoulder and a pile of expensive equipment sitting in a closet that the kid wont touch because it hurts. Make the kid an "archer" first. Let him have fun, and the strength will come with time. Archers become hunters if they so choose. Frustrated kids that "arent man enough" play video games....

Wyvern


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern -

Wish you'd post here more often. I whole heartedly agree. I've seen very few of the out of the box shooters actually do well, not zero but very few. Even those guys sooner or later want to improve and then the step by step approach comes into play. After the components are mastered, then the we get them to blend each step into the next and finally become one fluid motion. I guess there are some naturals out there, but I haven't met (too many of) them. 

Maybe not worse than the "Little League Archery Dad", but right up there are the guys with the "19 year old" syndrome. As we all know, 19 year olds (of any age) are indestructable. We get these guys in our local shop about once a week. They pull a #40 bow and say it feels like nothing to them. They then try a #70, reach about half draw, start sweating, shake like a leaf and say it feels good (must feel like an ..., oops, never mind),. They buy the #70 leave and we never see them again. That part really hasn't changed over the years, guess it never will. The poor guy behind the counter gave up arguing, he said "I tell them once, if they don't listen, I'll sell the ******* the bow". 

Viper1 out.


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

see this is how this dicussion should ahve been from the get go.....


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Viper 

Been there, done that with the "19 year old". The best one is when they come in with their girlfriend and try "showing off". I usually try to get a light bow into their girls hands and give her a few quick lessons. Hits them right in the ego when she shoots better than he does. One of my main things is training women since they generaly make better archers than men if given the right training(hope that does not start another argument  ). Once she outshoots him, I toss him a lighter bow, give him a few tips, and end up getting both of them into archery in equipment they can handle. Works most of the time. I am a bowhunter safety instructor and love nothing better than making bowhunters, but not to the exclusion of target archery. Not everyone is a "hunter". But we all started somewhere, and from what I have read on this and other threads is an indication, some of us wish that we could have started with lighter equipment then worked our way up in lbs. Handshocks technique may work for a few hunters that want the "drill sargent" method of training. Some people may respond to that very well. But as an instructor, I feel we should always start off on a level (light poundage, form first) training technique and THEN we can adjust the training once we see what our students are not only desiring from archery, but are capable of...

Now that this has calmed down, I am actually enjoying this thread...

Wyvern


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern -

LOL, I love it!!! Yeah, always found that the ladies take to most sports faster than the guys. Amazing what can happen when the ego is left out of the picture. 

I tried to say ealier on, in the beginning, there are no bowhunters or target archers, just beginners. Lay the foundation and then follow the path you want, and there's nothing wrong with following more than one path. Been done successfully too many times. BTW - I was a NYS Bowhunting Safety instructor as well, back in the 80's. We always opted to give the "proficiency test", not to fail anyone, but to give them an honest appraisal for their strong and weak points. (It was mandatory for the instructor's course back then.)

Hey, what every happened with that crossbow thing you were doing, sounded interesting.

Viper1 out.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

New Hampshire is working out the details of a proficiancy test for the students in their bowhunter course. I personaly dont think it will prove that much except that some people cant shoot well when they are "in the spotlight". I personaly spend more time on where the "kill zone" of the animal is since most new hunters cant tell a liver from a double cheeseburger. 

To keep this on topic, since we are talking about novice training techniques, have any of you seen the "string bow" as a training device by NASP?? I kind of giggled at this at first, but once you play with it abit, it actually does help in focusing on form for newbies. 

Thanks for asking, the Xbow thing is moving quite well, In about a month I will be posting an announcement in the correct section of AT on that. (I dont want this thread to get off topic)


Wyvern


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern -

I've seen it, but I prefer the rubber stretch bands / surgical tubing instead. Provides a touch of resistance (pound or two) and usually gets a better reaction and seems a little less "synthetic". I can usually pick up the stretch band, like the ones by Valeo at most discount sporting goods / dept stores for a few bucks. 

For more advanced guys, I'll add the Formaster. Both have strong and weak points, and using both can negate each other's deficiencies. 

Viper1 out.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

I have tried the surgical tubing thing as well. The resistance is a nice addition, but the string bow is good for locating the "archers groove" since it is actually string. You actually are "pushing" the imaginary bow away from you, so there is some resistance, but it is directly under the archers control. I think that any of the various practice tools out there are benificial and it is nice to be able to sit infront of the TV when the wind chill is -28 and still keep my form up. Of course this does not work to strengthen much since it does not have as much resistance as a bow, but again, for beginners, form is everything IMO. 

Wyvern


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> New Hampshire is working out the details of a proficiancy test for the students in their bowhunter course. I personaly dont think it will prove that much except that some people cant shoot well when they are "in the spotlight". I personaly spend more time on where the "kill zone" of the animal is since most new hunters cant tell a liver from a double cheeseburger.
> 
> Wyvern


I completely agree. I have yet to see the benefit of proficiency testing. I know bowhunters who could probably pass any test you'd throw at them, but turn into quivering blobs of goo when you get them 20 yards from a live deer. Conversely, I also know a few folks who can't shoot worth a hoot at 20 yards, but keep their shots within 10 or so and do very well. The only thing most proficiency tests demonstrate is that those promoting them don't fully understand the difference between target archery and bowhunting. 

As far as anatomy, when I took the NBEF course several years ago I was very surprised by how few veteran hunters, nevermind newbies, didn't know the location of a deer's heart, liver and shoulder blade. It was a real eye opener.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern - 

That's where the Formaster comes in. Along with the standard exercises, by forcing a follow-through, it trains the muscles not for the anchor position, but the follow-through position, where it's actually needed. Back-tension (a word I rarely use while training, unless the victim, err, I mean student brings it up) matters during and after the release, not before.

Good talking to some one who really gets it, welcome back.

Viper1 out.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Viper 
The one issue I find that I have to work with my students is a good solid anchor. To bring this back to the original reason for this thread, Starting with a high bow weight can be a "distraction" to good form as the student is concentrating so much on pulling the bow back that bringing his hand to anchor can get missed. If the anchor is poor, the release and followthru gets screwed up as well and besides shooting inconsistantly, the new archer learns bad habbits that are tough to break. Again, another reason for the light bow weights for beginners.

Wyvern


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wyvern - 

Looks like we're from the same old school.  If I can get a new shooter to anchor conistsently in the first session, we've both "done good". As things progress, I'm more interested in the follow-through than anything else, that tells me more about the steps leading up to it, than watching the steps themselves.

Viper1 out.


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## rjtfroggy (Dec 5, 2006)

Can you beleive it 20 post and no handshock just useful and civilized info.
Nice to read from people who care about our choosen sport, without critizing each other.:darkbeer:


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

rjtfroggy said:


> Can you beleive it 20 post and no handshock just useful and civilized info.
> Nice to read from people who care about our choosen sport, without critizing each other.:darkbeer:


Well said, froggy:wink:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Great to see this back on track and useful.
I'll not nip at the bait again here.

Steve


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## Best User Name (Dec 16, 2006)

*Related Question*

I was watching this volley from a blind; now that it seems under control I have a rookie question . . . 

Why go up in poundage at all? Why are bows even made over 55 lbs? If not for penetration or maybe breaching bone mass, it would seem to me that it is only for flatter shooting (?). If so it would then seem to me that it won't do you any good to shoot flatter if you're more shaky.

So if I become good with my 38 pounder, what will make me want to go up?


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## highnoonhunter (Aug 13, 2005)

There are many answers and variables to your questions Best User Name.

But one short answer is: If you were going to hunt with your bow, you may be required by law to use a higher poundage bow.

Here in Virginia, during the archery deer season we were once required to use a 40# bow, and it also had to be able to propel any arrow in your possesion 150 yards.

I don't know when the law changed, but I noticed in this seasons game law book, it states the bow must be capable of propeling a broadhead arrow at least 125 yards.

But some locals may not be as lenient.

hnh


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Best:
Unless you have a specific need for a heavy bow, there is no reason to move up unless you want to. Higher poundage bows transfer more stored energy to the arrow. That means you can either shoot a light arrow at a higher speed than a lighter bow, or a heavy arrow at the same speed as a light arrow on a light bow and have more kinetic energy and penetration. A fast arrow generaly will shoot flatter and at distance this can help. IMO, unless you have a need to either shoot faster or have more penetration, or you are not happy with your 38lb bow, stick with it and invest in some good arrows, or get a faster bow in the same poundage. 

Wyvern


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## Best User Name (Dec 16, 2006)

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> Best:
> IMO, unless you have a need to either shoot faster or have more penetration, or you are not happy with your 38lb bow, stick with it and invest in some good arrows, or get a faster bow in the same poundage.
> 
> Wyvern


I know this could lead from one question to the next to the next, but I will go one more step - what kinds of things make a bow faster without more poundage?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Best -

Good guestion. Most common answer is that we're human and bigger is better. That doesn't mean that ego is a bad thing, quite the contrary - it what makes us better archers.

Here's the reality.

First, you're absolutely right, heavier weights won't do you a bit of good if you can't handle it (read: shoot well with it).

There are valid reasons for working up to heavier weights however.

In the target world, if you're trying to make 90Ms while #38 might not be impossible, but it's going to be pushing it.You'll just run out of sight bar. Most competitive shooters are in the low to mid #40s with some of the best using around #50. Think about holding #50 for 5 or more seconds, 144 times and they all have to count. Kinda makes a dozen shots with a #75 bow look easy, doesn't it?

The biggest reason here (this forum) is the game you're hunting. Again you're right again, a good #45 bow will blow through most deer and take down black bear, elk etc. Larger game, maybe not. That's where heavier bows and heavier arrows do come in.

Despite some folks opinion, for hunting, I really do believe you should always use the most weight you can handle. Most importantly the weight, or actually force on impact has to be great enough to kill the game you're after. Pretty simple, no? 

Also, if for no other reason, it may build your confidence. But there's a catch. it's the "you can handle" part. I never discourage a guy shooting a heavy bow, if he's shooting it well or even if he's trying to work up to a heavier bow, as long as he's doing it intelligently. Unfortunately, these days, that's not usually the case. 

Getting back the the first thing I said. Ego. I like shooting a fast arrow, it's a kick, but I REALLY don't like missing. So there's a balance. When I was younger, my go to bows were in the #60 - 70 pound range, some higher, and while I'm not exactly an old man, today it's less. But the arrows are still pretty fast and still hit hard enough, and happily most of them go where they are supposted to. 

Now, what will make YOU want to go up in weight? Can't say, maybe nothing. There are guys shooting incredibly well with a lot less. It's going to depend on what you're into. If you want to hunt and the minimum weight in your state is #45, you'll have some work to do; if it's #35, you're golden. If you shoot indoor spots, you'll never need more. 3D is iffy, as speed is a factor, but a 200 fps arrow from a #75 bow has no advantage over a 200 fps arrow from a #38 bow in that arena. Now, you say you want to hunt Cape Buffalo or Rhinos, and that #75 bow might not even make it. 

Make any sense? That was really a very good question.

BTW - as an archer matures, he'll find sort of a magic weight. A weight that will give him enough resistance to feel right, but not so much that his accuracy suffers. If that weight is sufficient for your purposes, you have arrived.

Viper1 out.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents - 

Interestingly, we all said the same thing at the same time. 

Best - 

Arrow weight (and string weight) and draw length are the two biggest factors. After that it's the design of the bow. Too much to go into now, but more reflex in the riser and limbs adds speed but may make the box less forgiving. Lighter limb core material and surface material with a higher modulus of elasticity and, of course pixie dust.

Viper1 out, again.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Best User Name said:


> I was watching this volley from a blind; now that it seems under control I have a rookie question . . .
> 
> Why go up in poundage at all? Why are bows even made over 55 lbs? If not for penetration or maybe breaching bone mass, it would seem to me that it is only for flatter shooting (?). If so it would then seem to me that it won't do you any good to shoot flatter if you're more shaky.
> 
> So if I become good with my 38 pounder, what will make me want to go up?


Unless you plan to hunt, I suppose there's not much reason to go up in poundage. My father was quite a target shooter back in his younger days. His recurve was 35#, which he used for everything from indoor to field rounds. It's a great bow, I still have it, and if my priorities in archery revolved around target shooting I'd use it myself. However, since 35# target bows are a poor choice of weapon for chasing moose around the Canadian bush, it collects dust while I shoot my hunting bows, which pull significantly higher poundage.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Best User Name said:


> I know this could lead from one question to the next to the next, but I will go one more step - what kinds of things make a bow faster without more poundage?



I'm surprised---kind of shocked, actually---that this question didn't lead to a discussion of string materials (i.e. Fast Flite vs others), brace height (low vs high), and other factors that can increase speed without a change in poundage. Guys...?


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Handshock said:


> Ah yes, the wisdom of a 23 year old boy. Quite the treasure.........:wink:


It certainly outweighs the IGNORANCE of an old washed up old man. But your right. What do i know at 23 y/o? I can't see how age means anything here. MOST people should start out with a lower poundage bow to get proper form down. Whther it be a compound or a recurve. Now i didnt say everyone. 

But hey just disregard anything i have to say b/c at thew age of 23 what could i possibly know about hunting? What do all the bowkills and gun kills in 13 years have to do with anything? 

Im 23 now so i have to ask you at what age I shoulkd be permitted to post a reply? And at what age i have acquired "WISDOM" Guys like you have come and gone and are around on every forum and played the age card. It had never made any sense to me but maybe thats b/c i havent acquired my "wisdom". Or maybe i lost it when my "wisdom" teeth were pulled.


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## rjtfroggy (Dec 5, 2006)

Shadowwalker please don't crank him up again and get him started it is finally civilized. 
On increasing poundage if you want to hunt in Ct. you better go up a couple 40#min.casting arrow 150yrds.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

rjtfroggy said:


> Shadowwalker please don't crank him up again and get him started it is finally civilized.



I agree---after the fecal matter was flushed down the toilet, it's actually turning into a decent thread with good advice and helpful points being offered...let it stay that way


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

well my reasons for shooting over 65lbs is because i'm not an archer,i'm a hunter and that extra poundage will cast a heavier arrow at a better speed which would work in my favor in case of a poor shot (bone)...also and I know Viper doesn't like this...but anything less that 50lbs for me I pluck soemthing aweful.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Originaly, the post (at least I think it was) was that the weight of a starter bow should be whatever the person can comfortably draw and shoot without undue form deterioration with fatigue. That could be a 20lb bow for some and a 50lb for others. OK, I agree with that.



*Thank You*, for posting a sound, and *logical* post. You have summed up the very* PURPOSE* of this thread, before some people with an agenda turned into a slam the messenger fest. This thread was intended to point out that there is no set rule when it comes to beginning draw weight.

Again, *thank you*!!!!


So in closing I will say........History has proven that it is a mans beginning *ABILITY* that dictates where here starts with a traditional weight. Some men only have the ability to start with a 30#, while others can start with a 50# bow. 

History, and successful archers have *proven this to be true*, through the years, and it is the duty of we who are elders in the sport to teach this. 

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> It certainly outweighs the IGNORANCE of an old washed up old man.


I never claimed to be edamcated, but "washed up" is a little harsh. Heck this "old man" still managed to take 10 whitetail the past 2 seasons. Heck, I can still out lift most of you young boys, but then again since you all spend more time on the computer than in the gym, thats a given.........:wink: 



> But your right. What do i know at 23 y/o?


Some know a good bit. 



> I can't see how age means anything here.


Well it does. When you can base your opinions on decades of experience, someone may listen to you, unless there is some smart mouth boy with a computer butting in with his youthful folley.........:wink: 



> MOST people should start out with a lower poundage bow to get proper form down


.

Well lad, I ain't most people. I started out before you were born, before there was a internet, and I did just fine. 




> Whther it be a compound or a recurve. Now i didnt say everyone.


So in other words you are saying that some men can shoot a heavy bow based on their physical makeup???....You may be catching on.......:wink: 



> But hey just disregard anything i have to say b/c at thew age of 23 what could i possibly know about hunting? What do all the bowkills and gun kills in 13 years have to do with anything?


You're 23. My son has taken 50 deer with a bow. He is 25. He still has a hellavu long way to go before he can offer advice to me, or men who have been around as long as me. I expect him to surpass me one day, but it will be done with honor and respect. 



> Im 23 now so i have to ask you at what age I shoulkd be permitted to post a reply?And at what age i have acquired "WISDOM" Guys like you have come and gone and are around on every forum and played the age card. It had never made any sense to me but maybe thats b/c i havent acquired my "wisdom". Or maybe i lost it when my "wisdom" teeth were pulled.


You just do not get it. I am from an era where a start mouthed boy, got his mouth smacked. I am from an era where young men listened when older men of more experienced talked.

In your defense, you cannot help it. You grew up in era where children have no respect for adults, or elder authority. An era in which you could have your father arrested for whipping your arse for being a smart ass. 

You grew up in era where you did not learn to call older men sir, and ladies ma'am. You grow up in era that has utter disrespect for elder authority period.
You need to understand that I don't give a damn about being politically correct. I don't care if my opinions upset you, make you uncomfortable, or make you angry.

What I can guarnatee you is none of my children, or grandchildren will back sass your father or mother, here, or in person, regardless if they find them to be wrong, or out of sorts.

My son will never call your father a "washed up old man". If he did, I would put my foot up his ass real quick, and make him apologize even faster, and he is married with 2 children!. The best thing that could happen to you is for your father to do the same to you; to teach you a little old time respect.


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

or elder authority


well there goes this thread...elder authority is not always right...free thinking is.....

any who.personal attacks are not allowed.


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## SaskBushMan (Apr 22, 2006)

Well after ready all the post I can honestly say I agree with Handshock 100% I myself started with a 53# recurve and shooting a 55# now,Shooting really well to and yes when I first tried a recurve at the pro shop it was a [email protected] and after shooting it I felt like I got nothing from it. As far a Viper1 he has knowledge but some of his replies seem to be his way or the highway. As far jgbennett6 you do need to learn some respect plus when you open your mouth and shoot insults at people it makes you the fool and I think when it comes down to it you are just talking out your *****, even the what I just said to you was rude but nobody else seems to want to tell you. Like I said I started with 53# and when at first I could only shoot 50-60 shots and then I would be tired so I would stop for the day (quailty not quantity). I can now shoot my 55# on the 3-d course all day. Do I miss yes, but that has nothing to do with the bow weight.



> well there goes this thread...elder authority is not always right...free thinking is.....


I think free thinking is nice but it has also got people and the world as a whole into some trouble. Personally I will take the advice of someone who has been on the earth twice as long as myself. I am only 27 and I have alot to learn. I have always filled my tags but in no way am I an expert I learn something new everytime I go out hunting and shooting, mostly from folks who have been there and done that.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Handshock said:


> I never claimed to be edamcated, but "washed up" is a little harsh. Heck this "old man" still managed to take 10 whitetail the past 2 seasons. Heck, I can still out lift most of you young boys, but then again since you all spend more time on the computer than in the gym, thats a given.........:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im glad thats the way you see it. Smart mouth or not old man, I can go and fight for my country before i can have a beer or hell cigarettes now too and i have the right to bear ams etc etc etc....Why is it that the government decides that at "x" age i can do all these things yet people on the internet always use the "before you were born" nonsense.

I have respect and will give respect where respect is do. Just b/c you or anyone else here is an "elder" doesnt mean you DESERVE respect. If im not given respect (which in your opinion i shouldnt get) then i don't give respect either. But hey again your the big bad bowhunter and coach and you can bench press 500 pounds (insert ******ed grunt here) so therefore you THINK anyway that you are an archery god and that you ***** flowers. Your son has taken "x" amount of deer. WOW! My god i cant believe it. I have taken well over that but ya dont see me throwing it around. Wait thats right its not relavent. And hell i could probably show you each deer and have you tell me its just not so.

What you need to do is pull your head outta your rear and take a good look around. You should realize that I also dont give a crap about how my posts are percieved either. And you should also note that just b/c your birthday came before mine, doesnt mean crap. 

It just means that in the longer time frame that you have graced us all on this earth and walked on water that you still dont know enough about the sport to realize that the majority of the time LESS IS MORE.

You should take some more time and actually try and take something awayfrom each post you read rather then just "debunk" myths. If your offended too bad, come discipline me since im physically inferior (or so you think). Theres a place for people like you....its called the circus.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

SaskBushMan said:


> Well after ready all the post I can honestly say I agree with Handshock 100% I myself started with a 53# recurve and shooting a 55# now,Shooting really well to and yes when I first tried a recurve at the pro shop it was a [email protected] and after shooting it I felt like I got nothing from it. As far a Viper1 he has knowledge but almost every post of his I have read is his way or the highway. As far jgbennett6 you do need to learn some respect plus when you open your mouth and shoot insults at people it makes you the fool and I think when it comes down to it you are just talking out your *****, even the what I just said to you was rude but nobody else seems to want to tell you. Like I said I started with 53# and when at first I could only shoot 50-60 shots and then I would be tired so I would stop for the day (quailty not quantity). I can now shoot my 55# on the 3-d course all day. Do I miss yes, but that has nothing to do with the bow weight.


Your right in a sense. BUT. Lets not forget this is the internet. If you personally know someone who is just getting into to archery then you may know they can handle more weight. However over the internet afytre just a few posts isnt it more sensible to suggest starting with a lighter weight to execute good form rather then a draw weight thatll nake it that much more diffuclt? Being underbowed while learning is not a problem but being overbowed is. A big guy doesnt neccessarily mean he should or can shoot more. And a smaller guy doesnt mean that he should start with a rubberband and a pencil either.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

*Same song, new verse*

Didn't we go through this exact same exercise just about a year ago?

I mean, with the same guy and everything?

Fill me in folks, as I couldn't quite figure out exactly what is going on here.

Thanks,

RK
AT Administrator


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

*Thanks*

Some very good information is here for the reading.
Thanks to Wyvern for jumping in when you did and adding some very good comments.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Handshock said:


> *Thank You*, for posting a sound, and *logical* post. You have summed up the very* PURPOSE* of this thread, before some people with an agenda turned into a slam the messenger fest. This thread was intended to point out that there is no set rule when it comes to beginning draw weight.
> 
> So in closing I will say........History has proven that it is a mans beginning *ABILITY* that dictates where here starts with a traditional weight. Some men only have the ability to start with a 30#, while others can start with a 50# bow.
> 
> ...


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## captaincaveman (Sep 27, 2005)

jgbennett6 said:


> well my reasons for shooting over 65lbs is because i'm not an archer,i'm a hunter and that extra poundage will cast a heavier arrow at a better speed which would work in my favor in case of a poor shot (bone)...also and I know Viper doesn't like this...but anything less that 50lbs for me I pluck soemthing aweful.


At least I'm not the only one:embara: , I shoot an 83# @29.5" Morrison longbow and an 86# @ 29.5" Jeffery recurve(yes I can hold that weight at full draw for a LONG time without shaking). Yup, my release really sucks. I can't seem to get off the string clean with anything under 70# . On the plus side they will throw a 30.5" 2317 with a 145gr snuffer on a 100gr adapter at 185 and 180fps respectivly, and shoot clean through a deer lengthwise. For what it's worth I started shooting trad about a year and a half ago with a 55# longbow. It worked for me but your mileage may vary. Would it have been easier if I would have started under 40#? maybe, I didn't do it that way so I'll never know. I would however like to get a 30 pounder to try to fix my jacked up release so I can shoot any weight bow and don't limit myself to the heavies.

Josh


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

SaskBushMan said:


> As far a Viper1 he has knowledge but some of his replies seem to be his way or the highway


Now just to be fair, so far as I have seen, in the years I have been a member of AT, Viper1 offers SUGGESTIONS-----and not phrased in a "This is the way I do it and if you don't do it this way, you're an idiot" kind of way, but based on his experience not only as an archer and a coach and taking into consideration the advice of others who have found what works for MOST (heavy emphasis on "not ALL").

Now as far as your agreeing with Handshock based on what worked for YOU---that is perfectly fine, but some of your comments, especially those directed toward jgbenett, were unnecessary, especially considering the fact that for a minute--this post was getting back to offering good info without the fecal-matter slinging that it had previously deteriorated toward. Go ahead and get mad at ME and attack ME for saying that if you like, but that doesn't change the fact that all this trash-talking is making things worse...

Now back to the question that someone had previously posted about making a bow faster without an increase in poundage. String material, brace height, anything---?


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Back on subject...

Upgrading to Fast Flight or any number of low stretch strings (making an assuption that the tips are reinforced) will increase arrow speed. Increasing brace height will increase speed,but past a certain point, the flight can become erratic and accuracy suffer. A lighter arrow with the same spine will be faster as will a smaller fletching, though this will require a longer distance to stabilize the arrow than a larger fletching. Tapering that arrow, and or smaller diameters can help abit as well

Does that help??

Wyvern


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Sure does help Wyvern--not only in that it offers useful information but it also helps to get the thread back on track:wink:


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

One consideration that has not been brought up yet with gaining speed while not increasing poundage is that if arrow weight is dropped significantly, you get to the point that you are almost "dry firing" the bow. I have seen people blow up their bows due to repeated firing of underweight arrows. They blaze right down range, but the aim point has to be lowered substantially to compensate for the arrow flight and after a while you end up with firewood (and fiberglass)

Wyvern


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Recordkeeper said:


> Didn't we go through this exact same exercise just about a year ago?
> 
> I mean, with the same guy and everything?
> 
> ...


The guy pretty much think he's right and its his way or nothing. He was tossed last year and didnt get the message. Now he's back on the same bat channel at the same bat time looking for a arguement. God forbid you post and arent at least "x" age b/c your wrong. Didnt see an age when i signed up


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> One consideration that has not been brought up yet with gaining speed while not increasing poundage is that if arrow weight is dropped significantly, you get to the point that you are almost "dry firing" the bow. I have seen people blow up their bows due to repeated firing of underweight arrows. They blaze right down range, but the aim point has to be lowered substantially to compensate for the arrow flight and after a while you end up with firewood (and fiberglass)
> 
> Wyvern


Perhaps I should have asked how one can SAFELY increase speed without raising poundage:embara:


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## jgbennett6 (Dec 7, 2004)

SaskBushMan said:


> Well after ready all the post I can honestly say I agree with Handshock 100% I myself started with a 53# recurve and shooting a 55# now,Shooting really well to and yes when I first tried a recurve at the pro shop it was a [email protected] and after shooting it I felt like I got nothing from it. As far a Viper1 he has knowledge but some of his replies seem to be his way or the highway. As far jgbennett6 you do need to learn some respect plus when you open your mouth and shoot insults at people it makes you the fool and I think when it comes down to it you are just talking out your *****, even the what I just said to you was rude but nobody else seems to want to tell you. Like I said I started with 53# and when at first I could only shoot 50-60 shots and then I would be tired so I would stop for the day (quailty not quantity). I can now shoot my 55# on the 3-d course all day. Do I miss yes, but that has nothing to do with the bow weight.
> 
> 
> Are you handshocks drinking buddy, and guess what your not the only one to agree with handshock.i think everyone here actually agrees that if one can comfortably pull 50lbs and hold it, then go ahead. but teh MAJORITY is safer in teh 30-40lb range. as far respecting people. i respect people when they earn it, not demand it because your parent decided to make you before me. and trust me your not the first to tell me. you think teh problem with todays society is people who don't give respect and obey their elders, that crap is for teh boyscouts. I respect people who deserve it, not shoot off at the hip at other people, and make claims that they cannot or will not prove.


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> Back on subject...
> 
> Upgrading to Fast Flight or any number of low stretch strings (making an assuption that the tips are reinforced) will increase arrow speed. *Increasing brace height will increase **speed*,but past a certain point, the flight can become erratic and accuracy suffer. A lighter arrow with the same spine will be faster as will a smaller fletching, though this will require a longer distance to stabilize the arrow than a larger fletching. Tapering that arrow, and or smaller diameters can help abit as well
> 
> ...


You mean *decreasing* brace height will increase speed right?


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes...DECREASING brace height. Sorry it was late when I wrote that...
Wyvern


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## highnoonhunter (Aug 13, 2005)

jgbennett6 said:


> Are you handshocks drinking buddy, and guess what your not the only one to agree with handshock.i think everyone here actually agrees that if one can comfortably pull 50lbs and hold it, then go ahead. but teh MAJORITY is safer in teh 30-40lb range. as far respecting people. i respect people when they earn it, not demand it because your parent decided to make you before me. and trust me your not the first to tell me. you think teh problem with todays society is people who don't give respect and obey their elders, that crap is for teh boyscouts. I respect people who deserve it, not shoot off at the hip at other people, and make claims that they cannot or will not prove.


Hey JG,

It ain't worth it to keep going on replying to a lot of this stuff. Me and anybody else that has had dealings with you know how respectful you are. And I personally know you are above and beyond what I've seen and heard out of a couple on this thread.
A man will be known by his fruits. 

Bobby


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## vermonster13 (Sep 18, 2004)

*Interesting thread to say the least*

Some real good info in here amongst the bickering. One of the easiest ways to increase arrow speed without increasing weight is to use a more efficient bow. Some designs are just faster period. I won't list off all of the bowyers, but there are plenty out there who can give you more bang for the buck, especially when compared to many of the production bows available. Do some research and you'll find them easy enough. Have fun with the thread folks. Maybe they'll give this forum a moderator eventually, but for the most part it does pretty well on it's own.


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## Handshock (Jan 24, 2007)

> Im glad thats the way you see it. Smart mouth or not old man, I can go and fight for my country before i can have a beer or hell cigarettes now too and i have the right to bear ams etc etc etc....Why is it that the government decides that at "x" age i can do all these things yet people on the internet always use the "before you were born" nonsense.


Boys in their early teens can can produce enough sperm to create a baby. That hardly makes them a man. Manhood is achieved gradually. It is not granted upon a boys first sexual encounter, his first beer, or joining the military. 

Manhood is a combination of wisdom, respect for women, the elderly, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 



> I have respect and will give respect where respect is do.


Your idea of "respect" is tainted. Someone raised you under a great delusion that you can smart mouth your elders, and still be considered a man. Someone lied to you, and told you that women, and elders had to earn your respect in order for you to not be rude, sassy, and obnoxious. 




> Just b/c you or anyone else here is an "elder" doesnt mean you DESERVE respect. If im not given respect (which in your opinion i shouldnt get) then i don't give respect either.


I am your elder, and I do deserve your respect. The problem is you were raised without a moral standard in your life to instill such Biblical truths. Just by your words here, I can tell that not only do you not respect your elders, but you also have no respect for women, or anyone you percieve to be weaker than yourself. 

You are a spoiled, self centered brat, who lives in a man's body. The time to adjust your attitude has past. With that said, I can assure you that all young men are not like yourself. There are actually young men who pay homage to their elders, and who keep their lips buttoned, when older, and wiser men speak. 




> But hey again your the big bad bowhunter and coach and you can bench press 500 pounds (insert ******ed grunt here) so therefore you THINK anyway that you are an archery god and that you ***** flowers.


Again, your words are the words of a boy who was never taught respect. 



> Your son has taken "x" amount of deer. WOW! My god i cant believe it. I have taken well over that but ya dont see me throwing it around. Wait thats right its not relavent. And hell i could probably show you each deer and have you tell me its just not so.


When I pointed out the amount of deer that my son has taken, it was to show that while he is successful, he still heeds the wisdom of hunters twice his age. Unlike yourself,if he does not believe that an elder is wiser,he at least keeps his mouth shut out of respect.



> What you need to do is pull your head outta your rear and take a good look around. You should realize that I also dont give a crap about how my posts are percieved either. And you should also note that just b/c your birthday came before mine, doesnt mean crap.



Again,you are simply a product of the moral decay of this nation. You are the way you are because society has allowed children to back talk their parents, and threaten them legal action if the corporally punish them. You are the way you are because no one ever taught you that it was strong to use foul language in front of ladies, and your elders. 




> You should take some more time and actually try and take something awayfrom each post you read rather then just "debunk" myths. If your offended too bad, come discipline me since im physically inferior (or so you think). Theres a place for people like you....its called the circus.


As I said, the time to train you in honorable manhood has past. Your parents lack of instilling respect in you has rendered you one of millions obnoxious, and spoiled brats that think because they are over 21 they are men. 

What I can assure is, is that when you grow to be an old man, my grandchildren won't run their mouth to you, the way you have to me. However, I have no doubt that 30 years from now, you will encounter some flip mouth punk that was raised by someone like yourself, and then "what goes around, will have came back around"..........:wink:


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Some real good info in here amongst the bickering. One of the easiest ways to increase arrow speed without increasing weight is to use a more efficient bow. Some designs are just faster period.


To expound on that, I'd like to add a few things to clarify, based on my experience.

More expensive does not equal faster. Fast and slow can come in all price ranges.

Posts on the internet are primarily opinions. Some folks have been around long enough to know they are honest, but their opinions are still just that--opinions. Throw into the mix umpteen folks that haven't been in the sport long, folks that haven't had their hands on many bows, folks that just parrot what they've heard, folks that have owned 157 different bows, but it was over a period of 6 months and they didn't take time to put two dozen arrows through any of them, etc. etc. etc.

Asking for opinions on web sites, you will find speeds reported on the exact same bows can vary greatly. Could be a different set-up, could be inexperience, could be a different chrony, etc.

There's a few test reports around, but read the fine print. Don't expect to get the same results if the bow was shot in a shooting machine, with a release aid, with 3" of serving and no silencers with a piano wire string, drawn to 31" shooting light arrows. Personally, I've seen quite a few of the bows that are said to be absolute speed demons; and although quick, they didn't live up to what I've seen posted on the 'net. 5-15 fps is not a huge gain. A poor release can cause a difference of 5 fps or more. A tight nock will cause a decrease in speed. Also a standard size serving vs. little or no serving, string silencers, nock sets, how the string is made, if the arrow is matched to the bow, etc. etc. etc.

All chronographs are not equal. Most are sensitive to light conditions, how far the shot is from the chrony, arrow flight, etc.

Finally, faster does not equal better. Some bows are fast, but about as forgiving as an ex mother-in-law.

Getting the right bow for you will make a difference--if you draw 25" and get a bow that was built for someone with a 30" draw, you won't get the performance you would get in the same bow built for your draw length, or the same bow in a shorter length.

In a nutshell, there's a whole lot more to it than just "which one is faster". There are some great bows around that have a good combination of speed and forgiveness, but personally speed isn't the first thing I look at.

Chad


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

All excellent points Chad - well said!


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## Best User Name (Dec 16, 2006)

*Useful stuff!!!*



Wyvern Crossbow said:


> If this was a private list, do what you want, but all the people who are doing the nasty posts( and that is not just you handshock) are giving all the new archers another reason not to ask for help when they need it....
> 
> my 2 cents
> Wyvern


Not only am I new to archery but rather new to internet forums as well. You are correct, Wyvern. The nasty posts don't offend me and at times are even highly entertaining, but it almost always is a time benefit decision as to whether a thread is worth sorting through.

I am amazed at how much a forum can accelerate learning. Starting about 2 years ago I got a great deal of information about compound bow hunting from another forum. Now that I have taken up a long bow I am frequenting this one. It narrows down one's trail-and-error time immensely. Of course one needs to be careful what one believes, but I can verify a lot in the field myself, and there are usually plenty of post-ers out there keeping each other in check and offering counter opinions.

Let me just say thanks to the starter of this post and thanks to you all who take time to answer rookie's questions !

If I were an expert in something I would share, too. When it comes to archery and hunting I am willing to share experiences from a rookie's point of view.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I have seen all I need to see. Thanks to all who responded.


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## Stans_Recurve (Dec 4, 2006)

While I don't agree with the format and tone, the notion that beginning bow weight has some variation seems pretty reasonable. Back in the day (~35 years ago) I started with a Wham-O 25-30# fiberglass bow with wood/fiberglass/aluminum arrows. It was fun. Eventually, I got a 50# Browning Wasp when I got older. It was fun.

Fast forward to today... if I want to minimize my draw weight at anchor, why would I shoot a recurve bow? Last year my son (at age 14) wanted to start shooting. We picked out a Martin fiberglass ~20-25# bow. Unfortunately, the arrows didn't really shoot well. My old Wasp could shoot them, but it was a real struggle with that Martin.

Later, he wanted a stronger bow so we got a 30-35# PSE Bullseye with correct arrows. That is a much better bow, but I think he's over bowed. He bought and paid for the bow, so I don't want to criticize his choice. At least the bow shoots ok and he hits the target 95% of the time.

I'm in the process of getting him a sight and maybe a stabilizer so he can focus on anchor and release. Myself, I've shot his bow and it's in the 'ok' category. We aren't going to become olympic class archers or shoot competitive archery. 3-D is probably the closest to any competition we will see. 

My point is that archery needs to be fun. If being over bowed is fun, then that's fine. As long as no injury occurs, the bad habits formed will go away...provided you keep shooting!

Stan


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

I "started" with a 50# Martin recurve that was loaned to me by a friend. I shot for about two weeks but couldnt get more than 10 shots off before my form went to heck. I later purchased a Chek-Mate #46 and actually shot it pretty well. I now also have a #30 Hoyt Pro Medalist recurve (Found at a pawn shop!) and a #40 Hatfield TD recurve. A problem I have is Crohn's disease and I often loose weight and strength. I'm currently shooting my Hoyt a bit...and cant shoot the Chek-Mate consistently till I get back to regular shooting. 

One thing Ive found is that not all bows are created equally. Ive shot some #40 ponders that had bad limb stack and felt far worse than my #46...I've aslo shot a #55 that was so smooth it felt much like my #46.

I also have a friend who is on the small side...he has a #38 Bear 52" bow....When he was shooting often it wasnt bad..now that he shoots maybe 4 times a year...He cant shoot well for more than 10 minutes at a time.

Have many of you guys "worked up" to a certain weight...only to take a break from shooting and find it hard to keep good form with that weight?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Fin said:


> Have many of you guys "worked up" to a certain weight...only to take a break from shooting and find it hard to keep good form with that weight?


Fin,

Last Spring and early Summer I was shooting a 46# recurve as my field archery bow (that's 112 arrows for every round). I had carpal tunnel surgery and couldn't pick up a bow for 3 1/2 months. When I started back I started with the lightest bow I owned, one set up for 20 yard indoor shooting that pulled 38# at my draw. Still I was inconsistant and tired (began to make mistakes) for a couple weeks. I'm back in the low to mid 40s now but it took a while.

Dave


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## 31856 (Dec 9, 2006)

When I was 12 years old my parents gave me a 35lb. recurve for christmas. I had no trouble at all drawing that bow to my ear and shot many rabbits and pheasants with it. I actually felt underbowed with that bow.I am now 63 years young and still shoot quite comfortably a 68lb. recurve and could easily shoot more poundage. Shoot what your comfortable with not some pre determined poundage decided on by some self appointed expert.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

[ As long as no injury occurs, the bad habits formed will go away...provided you keep shooting!

Stan[/QUOTE]

It's been said by coaches wiser than myself that it only takes 20 shots to form a bad habit, but it can take 20,000 shots to break one.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Floxter said:


> It's been said by coaches wiser than myself that it only takes 20 shots to form a bad habit, but it can take 20,000 shots to break one.



I think that statement is more than enough to silence the naysayers that disagree with the starting light and concentrating on form advice


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## LoneWolf71 (Dec 4, 2006)

Just throwing in my $.02. My first longbow, and the one I shot 3d tourny with for several years, was 70#. I hit what I was aiming at about everytime. Know a man who shots 40# and is very deadly with it. Lighter weight bows are gret for people who have never shot to start with to get form and learn with. They are great for some people for all uses. I think it is personal. If you can handle 70# and are comfortable with it shoot it. Archery is a test of skill and practice, not strength, it levels the playing field to all. Just taught a class to a group of kids, some athelets other wern't, they all had a great time and were shooting very well by the end of the day.


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