# Polling for WAF arrow size rule and Vegas scoring change......



## larsen4 (Apr 2, 2009)

so you want to punish the guys that shoot perfect scores by changing X to 11s.. thats what makes vegas vegas.. every shot is a pressure shot! and thinking arrow size will bring more archers.. idk about that. thats what the flight class is for..and theres nothing stopping foreign shooter from building fatty arrows for vegas.. if we shoot in a foreign country we have to build smaller arrows. works both ways. im not saying your ideas are a bad format to a tourney by any means just dont think we should be messing with one if not the biggest indoor tourney in the world!! with that said i did here that they are looking into making it more of a lancaster style tourney next year.. so you may get your wish on the score change!


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Personally I would say leave things the way they are. If you change x's to 11's then the most entertaining part of Vegas goes away.. the shootoff. There would not have been a shootoff for the women's freestyle, and no shoot off for the mens freestyle for first place, and no senior shoot off. Changing arrow size limits would probably keep at least some in the mens freestyle shootoffs, but that would probably be about it. I just think the most exciting part would go away, and kill some of the prestige of the Vegas Tourney.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

I can't agree with changing the scoring to 11 for an x. thats part of what makes vegas, vegas. you have to hit the 10 90times to make the shoot off. If you miss one and shoot a 299, thats the game. I'd be ok with arrow size change but honestly don't think participation will increase because of it. If foriegn archers are making the trip, they shouldn't have an issue setting up 27's or shooting thier 23's. I think the lucky dog this year was shooting 23's....he had an unfair advantage because he was shooting for inside outs and had smaller arrows(thats for you sstarnes  )


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Not going to vote, but the NFAA attempted a rule change on arrow size a few years back and we all know how well that went.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Not voting in the poll because I don't like the 4 options.

Personally, and all of the following are my personal opinions, I would be ameanable to a discussion of the arrow size rule. Though, it has happened in the past, with disaaterous results, as mentioned above.

Against the super X being scored as an 11. The Shoot-off is what makes Vegas Vegas. However, I can see splitting the prize, and this was attempted a few years back, but my understanding is the manufacturers objected to it. By splitting the prize, I mean at the end of the days, the person who shot the highest score and X count gets a portion of the purse. Then the shoot-off occurs as happens now. The winner gets the remainder of the purse. Again, suggested a couple of years ago, but objected too (I think it had to do with contingency issues).

Wondering if this proposal only apply to the championship division too.

I also generally disagree that a change in arrow size will result in a large number of new, non US participants. It's already the biggest attended shoot in the US, and I think internationally. The European attendees that I talked to understand the rules of the game, and while taking the general position that we "Americans always have to do it our way", they don't see a big issue. Considering the price of a dozen special large arrows, compared to the cost for them to get to Vegas for the shoot, and the general small amount of time it takes to get a bow tuned to the bigger arrows, I don't see it changig much. Assuming $300.00 for completed big arrows, the cost is a fraction of the total travle costs. If that $300.00 is the claimed difference of someone from Europe coming to Vegas or not, I doubt they were seriously consideing coming anyway. They could also easily make up the $300.00 at the Lancaster booth, buyin supplies at US prices, without the duties that are imposed if they by it at home...which happens now.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I personally would like to see the arrow size set at 9.3mm to keep a "world-wide standard"....because the USA is the only country on the planet that allows competing with fat shafts larger than 9.3mm.

However, I've got mixed emotions concerning the super X counting as 11 points. Although, I must admit that the format of the Presleys Midwest Open and the Iowa Pro-Am that uses the X-ring on the blue face as a "6" (360 scoring) and uses the Super X as an "11" (330 possible) does tighten up the competition a LOT. 

My thoughts would be to go back to shooting Vegas with a 450 round on Friday, another 450 round on Saturday, and a final 300 round on Sunday. Ties fall as they may. Years back it was that format of 450-450-300 for 1,200 possible, and YES...1,200 was attained, too by several shooters.

The other thing I'd like to see, and I've mentioned it before is either:
1. The man that shoots 900 (current format) with the Most X's is GUARANTEED at least 2nd place and everyone shoots "UP" for the right to face him in the finals, or at least guarantee him no worse than 4th place.
OR

2. The man that shoots the perfect 900 with the most X's gets a BONUS of $5,000 (or some significant figure) for "winning the tournament the first time".

The way it is right now, in the Championship Men's Freestyle, X-count is a farce...it gains NOTHING for the person that shoots the 900 with the most super-X's. He has to win the shoot TWICE to get the big prize.

I think that the 9.3mm shaft size should be put in, but not all at once with a fall of an axe, but rather, going with a 2-3 year advance announcement that effective 2-3 years AFTER the rule has passed, then the 9.3 mm shaft size takes effect. That gives time to use up inventory and people to shoot up their fatties and get ready for 9.3'mm's.

I hear all the time how many of the top echelon pros are "Bored" with the current scoring...but rather than change the scoring or heaven help us, put in a small and more difficult target for Vegas...simply INCREASE the number of arrows shot...and that would make it tougher to shoot "clean" for the weekend. 45 arrows to put in the 10-ring is a lot tougher than just 30 shots.

Just thinkin'....and the ideas likely won't fly past the "old guard" anyways. Reluctance to change is just too strong, but I do indeed sniff a "change in the wind". It took years of effort to change the ages for Seniors...so it will take YEARS to get shaft sizing and shoot offs, etc changed too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> I hear all the time how many of the top echelon pros are "Bored" with the current scoring...


For further discussion only:

I hear that too. Even hear it from some of the pros. Most of the time, it is away from Vegas. Then comes Vegas, and the pros turn into 'babbling idiots" full of anxiety, nerves and knowledge that they have to be 'perfect for aty least 90 shots. So, how exactly is that 'boring' in application. Personally, when I'm bored, that stuff ain't happening. 

Considering the number of pros shooting, compared to the number that make the shoot-off...it doesn't appear that 90 perfect shots is really that easy to do. Again, if it ain't that easy for the most skilled, where's the boredom?

Vegas is Vegas for a reason. I ain't part of the 'old guard' but don't necessarily see a great need to change the shoot-off format. Tweaking it to award the highest x count shooter a prize, maybe, it was attempted, but blocked.

It also must be remembered that Vegas ain't run by the Directors...


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

"I personally would like to see the arrow size set at 9.3mm to keep a "world-wide standard"....because the USA is the only country on the planet that allows competing with fat shafts larger than 9.3mm. "

America = bigger , better stronger faster 
No way they will change , too much $ for the arrow companies to loose.
Can see the shoot offs going more towards a lancaster style


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

sunburn said:


> "I personally would like to see the arrow size set at 9.3mm to keep a "world-wide standard"....because the USA is the only country on the planet that allows competing with fat shafts larger than 9.3mm. "
> 
> America = bigger , _better stronger faster _
> No way they will change , too much $ for the arrow companies to loose.
> Can see the shoot offs going more towards a lancaster style


Not really (in red), the other countries are catching up FAST...and with regard to recurve shooting, the USA is losing ground and has been for a long, long time.

Too much $$$ for arrow companies to lose? You have GOT to be kidding me! 

First off, if 24's to 27's go away for competitive venues, the sales of the 23's etc will obviously PICK UP and GAIN....so at worst, it would be a 'wash' money wise and income-wise. However those companies exclusively making carbon arrows have an "up" on the others in that they already know they can spine out a 23 diameter because it is a known FACT that the all carbon arrows can be made so that there would be a 'correct spine' in a 23 diameter (or pick any other) to fit everyone, be it a short-draw, low poundage, or a long draw heavier poundage shooter! FACT.

So the "losing money" for the arrow manufacturers holds no water as a valid argument. More of it comes right down to stubborness and "we (pick whomever) rule the roost and we (pick whomever) will block off any attempts at a change to a common maximum arrow size standard world-wide. Politics more than anything. ONE major arrow manufacturer is likely blocking those attempts to go to a standard world-wide competition arrow diameter maximum of 9.3mm. Nuf said.

In World Cup competitions, Nimes, etc...EVERYONE is limited to a max diameter of 9.3mm...and the scores don't drop, and in some instances are even better for a 30 arrow round with 9.3 mm shafts than with FATTIES. So it isn't about scores dropping if fat shafts weren't allowed. 90X has been shot with 9.3mm by the same person that won Vegas in 2013, and that same person and others have won events with the same or better scores using 9.3mm shafts, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

field14 said:


> So the "losing money" for the arrow manufacturers holds no water as a valid argument. More of it comes right down to stubborness and "we (pick whomever) rule the roost and we (pick whomever) will block off any attempts at a change to a common maximum arrow size standard world-wide. Politics more than anything. ONE major arrow manufacturer is likely blocking those attempts to go to a standard world-wide competition arrow diameter maximum of 9.3mm. Nuf said.


Aside from a grand phylosophical and economical discussion...the NFAA, IBO, and ASA are American organizations. FITA - World Archery archery are international organizations. Heck...they don't even recognize 23s cuz that ain't metric. Last I checked (and this is both potentially a good and bad thing) no one has ever said the rules have to be uniform across the board. Canadian football is different than American. Should they be the same. International Basketball? 

Whether its stubborness or anything else, why does it have to be the same? If you want to play the game, play by the rules. How many divisions does FITA have? Should the American archery orgs do that too?

As far as the oft repeated references to an arrow manufacturer...would that be the same nmanufacturer that has given more money to archery worldwide than any other company? The same company that is a major sponsor of International and American archery? Seems if it had that much clout, then FITA-WC would be allowing 27s...


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I would love to see x as 11, but that means you no longer need to shoot a 900 to make the cut.. I am in favor of an arrow restriction tho, its not like those shooting 23's don't make the shootoff


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> I personally would like to see the arrow size set at 9.3mm to keep a "world-wide standard"....because the USA is the only country on the planet that allows competing with fat shafts larger than 9.3mm.


Just a quick point of clarification there Tom, I believe IFAA (International Field Archery Association) does not have an arrow size restriction of any kind yet. Not just the US still allows and shoots 27's. Though pretty certain IFAA is not as popular as FITA in Europe. IFAA World Championships are being hosted in Yankton later in April this year I believe.

>>-------->


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I'm not a pro, nor have I ever been to the Vegas shoot. If I lived in Bumfrack Egpyt and wanted to shoot Vegas, and had the funds to travel there, the cost of some arrows and the time involved getting these ready by tuning and shooting the big bullets isn't going to play much of a part in that decision or I'd just shoot what I know best and go with it. I know arrow size wouldn't play much of a part in that decision. Score the X as an 11? Then it wouldn't be Vegas. The most prestigous archery event there is, IMO, where the winner after all is said and done ends up with a lot of money for an Archery event. You either do or you don't. Get over it. Do you think changing this will put different faces in the shoot off other than the ones that are there year after year whether they're shooting broom straws or broom sticks and whether it's an X or an 11???? Maybe Obama will get involved and add giving everyone a partcipation award for just showing up.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

CHPro said:


> Just a quick point of clarification there Tom, I believe IFAA (International Field Archery Association) does not have an arrow size restriction of any kind yet. Not just the US still allows and shoots 27's. Though pretty certain IFAA is not as popular as FITA in Europe. IFAA World Championships are being hosted in Yankton later in April this year I believe.
> 
> >>-------->


I think you may be correct, Jeff. However, you and I know that with shooting more than one arrow at the same target at the varying distances on an outdoor round, one would be pretty foolish to shoot 24's, 25's, 26's, or 27's outdoors, hahahaha. It is bad enough with the smaller arrows to keep from trashing them, let alone slamming all those fatties into the same spot on a 15 yarder...or everyone on the bale shooting all their arrows into the same face at 40 yards or 65 yards...hahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> I'm not a pro, nor have I ever been to the Vegas shoot. If I lived in Bumfrack Egpyt and wanted to shoot Vegas, and had the funds to travel there, the cost of some arrows and the time involved getting these ready by tuning and shooting the big bullets isn't going to play much of a part in that decision or I'd just shoot what I know best and go with it. I know arrow size wouldn't play much of a part in that decision. Score the X as an 11? Then it wouldn't be Vegas. The most prestigous archery event there is, IMO, where the winner after all is said and done ends up with a lot of money for an Archery event. You either do or you don't. Get over it. Do you think changing this will put different faces in the shoot off other than the ones that are there year after year whether they're shooting broom straws or broom sticks and whether it's an X or an 11???? Maybe Obama will get involved and add giving everyone a partcipation award for just showing up.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Get over what Unclegus?????? Also let`s keep Obummer out of archery ok. We have enough problems with him meddling in everybody`s affairs without adding one more thing for him to screw up.ukey:


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

sunburn said:


> "I personally would like to see the arrow size set at 9.3mm to keep a "world-wide standard"....because the USA is the only country on the planet that allows competing with fat shafts larger than 9.3mm. "
> 
> America = bigger , better stronger faster
> No way they will change , too much $ for the arrow companies to loose.
> Can see the shoot offs going more towards a lancaster style


Actually several arrow companies would welcome the change if not all of them. The Lancaster shoot-up probably wouldn`t work at Vegas but the X as 11 sure would. I also like Field 14`s idea of a bonus to the archer in each Championship division with the highest X count. There probably wouldn`t be near as many in the shoot-off if X`s were counted as 11`s but I am willing to bet the Men`s Unlimited Freestyle Championship division would have a lot more participants from the U.S., if not foreign countries, if the X was counted as an 11.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

deadx said:


> Unclegus said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a pro, nor have I ever been to the Vegas shoot. If I lived in Bumfrack Egpyt and wanted to shoot Vegas, and had the funds to travel there, the cost of some arrows and the time involved getting these ready by tuning and shooting the big bullets isn't going to play much of a part in that decision or I'd just shoot what I know best and go with it. I know arrow size wouldn't play much of a part in that decision. Score the X as an 11? Then it wouldn't be Vegas. The most prestigous archery event there is, IMO, where the winner after all is said and done ends up with a lot of money for an Archery event. You either do or you don't. Get over it. Do you think changing this will put different faces in the shoot off other than the ones that are there year after year whether they're shooting broom straws or broom sticks and whether it's an X or an 11???? Maybe Obama will get involved and add giving everyone a partcipation award for just showing up.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Fat shafts never seem to save me and I can never get a decent X count in Vegas. I personally like it the way it is. 

Lawyers and sharp instruments don't mix. Just sayin. :cheers:


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Look at how Vegas is already growing why mess with the best tournament there is? 11s would end the best part of Vegas the shoot off. Big picture IMO it's not what's best for the shooters or the competition but what is the most exciting format to watch. 11s or smaller arrows wont help that. Now things I saw this year on the you tube was the announcers commentating the shoot off. Adding in stuff about the archers. Great job on it


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i guess i'm way it left field, but the past couple shootoffs have been pretty boring. Last year was kinda cool because of the size of the field, but the format really kills it for me. This year i only really watched becasue 1: i had friends who wanted to and several good friends where in the shootoff. The best i have ever seen and ever will see was Reo and Morgan in '09

Going to 23's would make it more interesting, its harder to tell from 12 rows up if an arrow is in or out with 23's...


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

I will have to agree that the shootoff is what makes Vegas. Without it, it would not be the same.
I went back and looked for the last 4 years, not including 2013 because I can't find the total number of x's after the third round anywhere, to see if there were any ties should the x be counted as an 11. The NFAA website has nothing for Vegas 2013, or anything for 2013! Anyway......
In 2009, there would have been 2 guys in the shootoff.
In 2010, there would have been no shootoff. Braden G. had the highest x count.
In 2011, there would have been no shootoff. Reo had the highest x count.
In 2012, there would have been 2 guys in the shootoff.

So I don't think it's safe to say there would be a shootoff if x's were 11's, it's 50/50 based on these 4 years. The two years the was a shootoff, with only 2 guys in it I can't see it taking long. With my luck I'd run to the bathroom and when I got back it would be over. 

On a side, I found it interesting that Reo in 2011 was the ONLY one to have the highest x count AND to win the shootoff in the same year. All the other winners were beat on x's, but came through in the shootoff.


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

N7709K said:


> i guess i'm way it left field, but the past couple shootoffs have been pretty boring. Last year was kinda cool because of the size of the field, but the format really kills it for me. This year i only really watched becasue 1: i had friends who wanted to and several good friends where in the shootoff. The best i have ever seen and ever will see was Reo and Morgan in '09
> Going to 23's would make it more interesting, its harder to tell from 12 rows up if an arrow is in or out with 23's...


I would agree! I was there for that one too and it was spectacular!
Arrow size makes no difference to me, we all have to play by the same rules so............


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

you also need to check and see if any 899 shooters had enough x's to catch the leaders, x as 11 and dropping one point no longer matters...


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## Ditch Pickle (Jun 8, 2011)

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAD OR BOREING SHOOT OFF YET.......:greenwithenvy:


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

what was more fun to watch tho? Braden and Peter on saturday night, or Jesse and Reo on sunday?


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

N7709K said:


> you also need to check and see if any 899 shooters had enough x's to catch the leaders, x as 11 and dropping one point no longer matters...


Good point. I only looked at the guys that were clean.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

as a first time spectator only... i was originally puzzled that the x count was for bragging rights only. that seems nutty and there should be a prize for that, whether it is money or a bye in the shootdown rounds based on # of competitors in each round. At the same time, the shootdown was quite intriguing to watch since you could tell even the most seasoned guys had some jitters. very cool stuff.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I wish they would chang the arrow size to regular hunting arrows lol. I hate changing from fat arrows for one shoot to 22's for another, to skinny arrows for another. It would be so nice to just go with one setup for everything. 

Scoring x's as 11's would be different. I think it would be fun in flights. 

I always liked scoring 12, 10, 8, 5 on 3d shoots and hate the sticker 8, 5 rule on redding style shoots. 

But having things different can make archery not as boring. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

http://ianseo.net/TourData/2013/368/IC.php

Looks like Ben had the highest x count of the 899 shooters, but there would have been a couple guys in the running... logan's 30x would have made up for sunday's 299 if x were 11... would have had a higher overall finish(more than likely), but there wouldn't have been a shootoff(chance had highest x count at 86, next was 85 or 84)


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

The big change in scoring the X as an 11 would come in the 899-898 ranks. It would help those who shoot one or two nines to be still in the hunt on the last day. That is the beauty of the Lancaster Classic. Any type of shoot-off can be formatted into a tournament but getting to the shoot-off is the hardest part.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

deadx said:


> The big change in scoring the X as an 11 would come in the 899-898 ranks. It would help those who shoot one or two nines to be still in the hunt on the last day. That is the beauty of the Lancaster Classic. Any type of shoot-off can be formatted into a tournament but getting to the shoot-off is the hardest part.


Exqueeze me, but I thought that is why the lucky dog was created? Now you want something for the 98 shooters too???? There's no beauty in Lancaster except average shooters and the near great shooters get to pay the same shooting fees as the factory pros and have absolutely not a snowball's chance of winning anything but a door prize; it just help make the purse higher for the pros. The same should be for those who can't shoot a 900 at Vegas in Championship unlimited. That's the beauty of Vegas. Again, just my opinion. I'm old and eccentric, I don't know anything anymore.


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## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

Just a wanna be goober here...

Love the format for Lancaster, and agree, goobs like me just feed the pot and get a chance to shoot next to a hero. 

I like the pressure cooker format...it's fun to watch.

Vegas...these guys know the game, get into the tournament by staying clean. Then go play for the cash. The worry is dropping the dreaded 9...pressure in it self, but not nearly the gut twister when the coin is able to be sniffed. 

Both formats work, but changing one to the other is going to change the point of each venue. 

I say nooooo way....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

vegas comes down to 9 arrows; thats what we are all shooting for, those 9 arrows.. take that away and sure its still a fun shoot, but its not the same


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

vegas is vegas leave it alone who cares what the rest of the world wants. we are americans and we set the standard and help most countries out anyway .did you see how the pro from norway was dressed and do you really want us to lower our pro`s standards ? i think not !


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Lawyers and sharp instruments don't mix. Just sayin. :cheers:


Hey Willis...I think you are talk'n bout me now. lol. :elf_moon:

It's healing nicely btw. :darkbeer:


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

N7709K said:


> The best i have ever seen and ever will see was Reo and Morgan in '09


Unquestionably the best I have ever seen too. The ebs and flows of that thing, and the number of times the win for either was there with one final arrow. Absolutely fantastic shoot-off.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

11 ends total, 9 of i/o scoring; if jesse had been healthy this year it would have given that one a run for its money.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> vegas is vegas leave it alone who cares what the rest of the world wants. we are americans and we set the standard and help most countries out anyway .did you see how the pro from norway was dressed and do you really want us to lower our pro`s standards ? i think not !


Folks keep forgetting that you do not have to be an NFAA PRO to shoot on the Championship line. I didn`t talk to the guy from Norway since he didn`t speak a word of American. Reo Wilde wore blue jeans on the first day at Vegas when he is supposed to be a pro and adhere to the pro dress code so what standard are you referring to since the guy from Norway darn near beat everybody?


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

score the X as 11, limit arrow size to 2315, put the top 20 in the shoot down


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

deadx said:


> Folks keep forgetting that you do not have to be an NFAA PRO to shoot on the Championship line. I didn`t talk to the guy from Norway since he didn`t speak a word of American. Reo Wilde wore blue jeans on the first day at Vegas when he is supposed to be a pro and adhere to the pro dress code so what standard are you referring to since the guy from Norway darn near beat everybody?


#1 - I'm not in favor of a change at this time. Maybe something in the format of the shoot-off...but not the x as 11. 
#2 - I would have to see something in writing by all the arrow Mfg's before I would even bring this up in Council. I spoke to your sponsor and he's verbally in favor but thats only one guy. Powerful and important voice, yes...but only one.
#3 - The photos I have do not support the claim on Reo. I also have spoken with him and others...there seems to be no proof at this time to substantiate that comment. That investigation is still open if you have more information...but as of Thursday I still had no proof to support it. 
#4 - The Norwegian, yes he was using FITA legal shafts, and did a hell of a job.

Vegas was bigger this year than ever before. There will have to be a VERY compelling argument to substantiate huge wholesale changes. 

Before you consider a change please tape this across the screen so you can form an idea with it in mind:
If you were a businessman and had the single biggest event in the country...and it was growing in a very healthy manner every year, why and what would you change?... Keep your business hat on, not your shooter hat. If it dosent make good business sense then there will be no shoot for the shooters....

Again, I agree that some small tweaks might be healthy, but let look at them very cautiously and with clear and open eyes

Chuck Cooley
NFAA Pro Chair
WAF Board Member


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

N7709K said:


> i guess i'm way it left field, but the past couple shootoffs have been pretty boring. Last year was kinda cool because of the size of the field, but the format really kills it for me. This year i only really watched becasue 1: i had friends who wanted to and several good friends where in the shootoff. The best i have ever seen and ever will see was Reo and Morgan in '09
> 
> Going to 23's would make it more interesting, its harder to tell from 12 rows up if an arrow is in or out with 23's...


To me, last years shoot off with over 20 guys on the line, the two regular scoring ends and the three judge scoring panel was about as boring as it gets. Each of the regular ends lasted about 10 minutes and meant nothing, maybe one guy was dropped. I don't know what the total time was to declare a winner but there are lots of people trying to get away at the end and can't stay for that long.
I'm strongly in favor of the x being scored as an eleven in Vegas. I think any ring on any target in archery should have a scoring value and the x should be dropped as a tie breaker. The idea of making one bad shot and having no chance to shoot yourself back into contention is present in no other sport that I can think of but archery. I'd get a lot more out of watching the top scorers go at each other through the whole tournament if the scores could be in lights as each end is completed and you could follow the top shooters from end to end and from the first arrow to the last.
If you need some excitement at the end, look at what the ASA does. The top 5 scorers shoot an extra 5 targets, bringing there original totals with them to the shoot down. The guys trying to come from behind, in their case, can shoot at a more difficult spot size for extra points, while the guy in the lead has to make sure he doesn't play it too safe. That wouldn't be easy to do on the Vegas face unless inside out scoring was used, say a 12 for an inside out baby spot, 11 for a line touch on the baby, a 10 for an inside out 10 ring and a 9 for a line cutter 10 ring.
Personally I think Chance should have been the winner this year and that ties in a real point total, although fewer than the present format, would be way more exciting than what we are seeing now.
Joe B.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

The only problem with this years vegas was the three judges! That was lame! These pros have been scoring their own arrows all weekend and now they have to have three different judges score every arrow. Hell no! If an arrow needs to be called then get the three judges. Speed this dog and pony show up. Besides they are using a new target for every round. How hard is that to score really? 

Dont have a problem with the Vegas shoot other than that part about the reffs. I like how its not always about the best shooter all weekend. Its about who made it to the shoot off and then who can shoot under pressure. It was amazing to see the honey badger shaking like a leaf and then pound that last x. 

Vegas is really 4 tournaments. You have to shoot a 300 on day one, then start over on day two, the pressure mounts every day your clean. Day three is probably the hardest for those that make it that far. Then you have the shoot off you know its now or never. You have made it this far. You know its could all come down to your next arrow. Vegas is great dont screw with it. 


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> The only problem with this years vegas was the three judges! That was lame! These pros have been scoring their own arrows all weekend and now they have to have three different judges score every arrow. Hell no! If an arrow needs to be called then get the three judges. Speed this dog and pony show up. Besides they are using a new target for every round. How hard is that to score really?
> 
> Dont have a problem with the Vegas shoot other than that part about the reffs. I like how its not always about the best shooter all weekend. Its about who made it to the shoot off and then who can shoot under pressure. It was amazing to see the honey badger shaking like a leaf and then pound that last x.
> 
> ...


Put almost $70K with endorsements and contracts on the line and you want 3 to look at it... trust me.

oh..and by the way the 3 judges was a request BY THE Pros to make sure it was legit...anyone remember a "re-call" a few years back??? 
Yes, it takes longer but it's right and tight.

As for this year...there would have been no shoot off if we counted X's. Chance won it.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Chuck are you lacking in reading and comprehending skills. I said they are not needed for every arrow. Hell i could call 98% of them from the 20th row in the stands. 

Call the Judges for the ones that need it! No different than any other shoot. Speed up the dog and pony show is all im asking. The refs killed the mood of the whole shoot!



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> Chuck are you lacking in reading and comprehending skills. I said they are not needed for every arrow. Hell i could call 98% of them from the 20th row in the stands.
> 
> Call the Judges for the ones that need it! No different than any other shoot. Speed up the dog and pony show is all im asking. The refs killed the mood of the whole shoot!
> 
> ...


I didnt miss it...

You missed the part where the shooters asked for it.
If your in the 20th row, well....


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i do wish that at all archery shoots they would list bow manufacture`s name that each shooter uses that day next to shooter`s name.would maybe make it even more interesting .


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

FV Chuck said:


> I didnt miss it...
> 
> You missed the part where the shooters asked for it.
> If your in the 20th row, well....


Chuck were you in the shoot off? Who are you and ill look up your scores?

If the pros asked for it that way then there killing there own show. I wont watch another one like that again. 

Chuck i didnt even shoot vegas. Its hard coaching kids in our club and watching my own kids shoot. Sure id like to shoot myself but im sure id have to shoot the same time as those kids. Conflict of interest for me. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> Chuck were you in the shoot off? Who are you and ill look up your scores?
> 
> If the pros asked for it that way then there killing there own show. I wont watch another one like that again.
> 
> ...


No - I wasnt in the shoot off. I was announcing it.
I'm the NFAA Pro Chairman, a member of the WAF Board, and sit on the NFAA BOD..

I'm simply relaying what those who voted me in to lead them have asked for.
Just so you have a little more insight.

Could it be tweaked a little?... maybe but right now it's what weve got. It's better than it was but usually anything can be refined to be more efficient as long as it's still fair. The MOST important thing we desire is a FAIR call and the integrity of the game.

The way it works is this...
Every judge looks at the face and calls it privately to Doug Joyce who records it. Best 2 out of 3 calls is what we go with. The calls are recorded quietly and privately as to not influence another judges call.
Like I said, can it be smoother and faster?...maybe, but above all it has to be right.

So... with that info. 
How (exactly) would you change it to make it better and more viewer friendly. I dont want to hear it sucks, it's boring, or I'll never watch again. I can get that from 5th graders. If you want it better...we want it better. Our #1 goal is to have people be interested in watching and being excited about what they are seeing....So. give me something I can work with. I promise I will.

Chuck


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Go straight to I/o scoring and no practice. First arrows in the bales get scored. Only bring the judges in for disputes in scores, pro's can score their arrows well enough and most know going down there what they shot, hell most of the people watching know what they shot before they go down and officially score them.

If the shoot off is going to be filmed from here on out at the pro meeting come up with a format that flows and keeps viewer interest. Both years at the south point the enjoyment of the shootist has been much less. There is no more challenging a call, there are 5min breaks between ends, there is broken commentary while they are scoring. 

If you keep the three judges, go to a WC approach and don't have the archers retrieve their own arrows/hang faces/etc.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

FV Chuck said:


> No - I wasnt in the shoot off. I was announcing it.
> I'm the NFAA Pro Chairman, a member of the WAF Board, and sit on the NFAA Council and BOD..
> 
> I'm simply relaying what those who voted me in to lead them have asked for.
> ...


Trying to poke fun at me about being in the stands then basically calling me a 5th grader inst helping your point. In fact having it come that way from someone of your authority you is plain wrong. 

If you want to hear my legit criticism about the shoot READ all my posts again. It was a small criticism and you even addmitted in this post it is a problem. Typing slowley and loudly about my only criticism with this shoot to save you your valuable time. THE DOG AND PONY REFEREE SHOW. IT DOESNT NEED TO HAPPEN THE WAY IT IS CURRENTLY RUN and yes if its run that way again im not watching. I LOVE THE VEGAS SHOOT but Kids have school and we have a long drive on sunday. 



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

FV Chuck said:


> No - I wasnt in the shoot off. I was announcing it.
> I'm the NFAA Pro Chairman, a member of the WAF Board, and sit on the NFAA Council and BOD..
> 
> I'm simply relaying what those who voted me in to lead them have asked for.
> ...


Chuck,
If they would dump the first two ends of regular scoring it would go a long way to making it less tedious (I didn't say boring). They all got there by doing that for 30 ends already, why do two more ends of regular scoring?? Get right to the action and reduce the time needed to complete the shoot off by maybe half.
Joe B.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

zenarch said:


> To me, last years shoot off with over 20 guys on the line, the two regular scoring ends and the three judge scoring panel was about as boring as it gets. Each of the regular ends lasted about 10 minutes and meant nothing, maybe one guy was dropped. I don't know what the total time was to declare a winner but there are lots of people trying to get away at the end and can't stay for that long.
> I'm strongly in favor of the x being scored as an eleven in Vegas. I think any ring on any target in archery should have a scoring value and the x should be dropped as a tie breaker. The idea of making one bad shot and having no chance to shoot yourself back into contention is present in no other sport that I can think of but archery. I'd get a lot more out of watching the top scorers go at each other through the whole tournament if the scores could be in lights as each end is completed and you could follow the top shooters from end to end and from the first arrow to the last.
> If you need some excitement at the end, look at what the ASA does. The top 5 scorers shoot an extra 5 targets, bringing there original totals with them to the shoot down. The guys trying to come from behind, in their case, can shoot at a more difficult spot size for extra points, while the guy in the lead has to make sure he doesn't play it too safe. That wouldn't be easy to do on the Vegas face unless inside out scoring was used, say a 12 for an inside out baby spot, 11 for a line touch on the baby, a 10 for an inside out 10 ring and a 9 for a line cutter 10 ring.
> Personally I think Chance should have been the winner this year and that ties in a real point total, although fewer than the present format, would be way more exciting than what we are seeing now.
> Joe B.



I'm not a fan of how ASA does things, from where i sit if you are leading the pack and are NOT tied then you should win the whole works, NOT shoot off for it. 

spots isn't about being able to "come from behind" its about consistency and staying consistent for the ENTIRE game. Fita is more come from behind than NFAA/WAF, you shoot your two days of score and then go into match play. I'd be all for match play to decide vegas, but it needs to be done correctly.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

swbuckmaster said:


> Vegas is really 4 tournaments. You have to shoot a 300 on day one, then start over on day two, the pressure mounts every day your clean. Day three is probably the hardest for those that make it that far. Then you have the shoot off you know its now or never. You have made it this far. You know its could all come down to your next arrow. Vegas is great dont screw with it.
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


No offense, but it shows that you don't shoot while in vegas. Vegas, for pro class, is about sunday night, thats it. You shoot 90 arrows of basically practice to make it to the shootoff. The pressure is only an issue if you think about shooting a 300 each day; focus on the goal and the nerves aren't an issue.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

N7709K said:


> No offense, but it shows that you don't shoot while in vegas. Vegas, for pro class, is about sunday night, thats it. You shoot 90 arrows of basically practice to make it to the shootoff. The pressure is only an issue if you think about shooting a 300 each day; focus on the goal and the nerves aren't an issue.


Man, you've sure got everything figured out in the 19 years you've been on this earth.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

zenarch said:


> Chuck,
> If they would dump the first two ends of regular scoring it would go a long way to making it less tedious (I didn't say boring). They all got there by doing that for 30 ends already, why do two more ends of regular scoring?? Get right to the action and reduce the time needed to complete the shoot off by maybe half.
> Joe B.


That actually sounds fairly reasonable Joe..
Wonder if they would go for it?


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> Trying to poke fun at me about being in the stands then basically calling me a 5th grader inst helping your point. In fact having it come that way from someone of your authority you is plain wrong.
> 
> If you want to hear my legit criticism about the shoot READ all my posts again. It was a small criticism and you even addmitted in this post it is a problem. Typing slowley and loudly about my only criticism with this shoot to save you your valuable time. THE DOG AND PONY REFEREE SHOW. IT DOESNT NEED TO HAPPEN THE WAY IT IS CURRENTLY RUN and yes if its run that way again im not watching. I LOVE THE VEGAS SHOOT but Kids have school and we have a long drive on sunday.
> 
> ...


Ok...so again...
What do you suggest? 
Yes, it's tedious...we know that
Yes is accurate....we also know that
Yes it keeps the integrity of the scoring...we again know that.

So. Do you agree With the World Cup suggestion or do you have something better. 

And as for the 20th row vs. 5th grader thing....if you can poke fun why can't I ? 
Lighten up. 
It's about progress


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

FV Chuck said:


> That actually sounds fairly reasonable Joe..
> Wonder if they would go for it?


Chuck,
I don't see any reason why both the Pros and the Joes wouldn't support this change. I don't know how the WAF legislates change but I'm sure you're in the loop. Bring it up with your Pro members and see what they think.
Joe B.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

zenarch said:


> Chuck,
> I don't see any reason why both the Pros and the Joes wouldn't support this change. I don't know how the WAF legislates change but I'm sure you're in the loop. Bring it up with your Pro members and see what they think.
> Joe B.


Yep - 

Thats the start Joe... bring it to the Champ div guys...get the pulse of it. If it sounds reasonable or supported..then it goes to WAF for them to decide.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

FV Chuck said:


> Put almost $70K with endorsements and contracts on the line and you want 3 to look at it... trust me.
> 
> oh..and by the way the 3 judges was a request BY THE Pros to make sure it was legit...*anyone remember a "re-call" a few years back*???
> Yes, it takes longer but it's right and tight.
> ...


Yep...and if it's the one I remember, a couple of us have been talking about it in this thread. Yet, one of the other compelling aspects of that SO. (Unless of course you're talking about that other "re-call thingy") :mg: Also a darned good reason that that the scoring system is what it is today. But, you kinda had to be there to see where it came from to see the merit of it. :wink:

Yes, it is a delay, that could be tweaked some. How? Who knows?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Chuck,
You already have my 'thoughts' on the Vegas shootoff issue as it concerns the person that shoots perfect 900 with the most Super-X's. Two proposals, and I'm not going to go thru that over again. I think that your next step is the way to go and aruging or debating it here won't do one bit of good anyways.
Something needs to be done concerning the "real" winner; the one with perfect 900 AND the Most Super-X's so that it isn't just a false seeding and the count is for "grins" and of little consequence or meaning. Some reward for that is really badly needed to make it worth something more than a mention of "the number one seed"......or the "number one qualifier"; so What? What did he get for it? Nothing more than anyone else, and in addition, this person has to win the tournament TWICE in order to win the tournament ONCE.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Field, Not sure why those words rub me so raw, but until the rules are changed, the *only "real winner"* at Vegas is the archer strong enough to win the shootoff.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> Field, Not sure why those words rub me so raw, but until the rules are changed, the *only "real winner"* at Vegas is the archer strong enough to win the shootoff.


Give it time, you'll understand soon. The way it is right now, you get NOTHING for having the 900 AND the highest super-X count other than a "false seeding" and bragging rights...and that is all. I have put forth two suggestions and we'll just have to wait and see if either one floats or not.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Just talking off the top of my head, but these are things I'd suggest for Vegas:

1. Flat bonus for all archers shooting a 900 and making the shoot-off in addition to the current payout schedule.
2. Additional bonus for the top-ranked archer going into the shoot-off round (highest x count).
3. Only call on the 3 judge rule when there is a disputed arrow call. 1 head official scoring all arrows shot during the shoot-off. If the archer whose arrow is called or a competitor disagrees with the head official's call then a 2nd official is called upon to score the arrow. If the 2 judge's decisions are the same, arrow is called. If the 2 judge's decisions are different then a 3rd judge is called on to make the call and his decision then becomes the final call. This is/was the old FITA line call rule. Now only one judge is called upon and their decision is final...to speed things up. Myself, and I'm betting most of the archers in the shoot-off, do not think 3 independent calls need to be made and recorded in secret for every arrow shot in the shoot-off, especially when there is absolutely no question what the arrow value is. I've been hearing the same complaint now the last 2 years and I haven't even been in the room during the shoot-offs (off tearing down the other halls). 
4. Still think Braden's match play shoot-off idea needs to be instituted as well at some point for Sunday.

>>--------->


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Sean was teling me that the World champs use one judge, the Olympics use one judge call too same as World Field. What he sees is the big issue is that those judges go through specific training to be National-International judges. I don't think the NFAA has a judging certification programe other than who ever gets asked to do the shooting lines. Yuo have to wonder if the archers see the judging as a potential issue at Vegas/Indoors but no other venue of simialr stature than the issue maybe inhouse. As for the shootoff, itis what it is everyone knows it before they register, a simple thing that could be done is that the high X count gets a 2 round bye similar to fita seeding system for high qualifing score


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm confused as to why people feel Chance won the tournament the first time. The rules for the tournament are set well before the tournament. Same as every other year. They all know that to actually WIN it, you have to win the shoot off, not just shoot the most x's the 3 days before. I look at it like NFL, the team with the highest scoring total for the playoffs doesn't win the superbowl, they just earn the right to be at the Superbowl.. Now its up to them to win it. Why should archery be any different?

They already get a bonus for staying with the 900 for the weekend. 

Chuck, for the panel scoring, and a suggestion. How about let the shooters that are paired on each bail call their own arrows, then if there is a call needed, do the panel judging as it is done now with 1 judge scoring privately to the score keeper, then the next judge, and so forth. I would have to watch it again, but I'm pretty sure in both versions of the shoot off video you and Griv, as well as McCarthey in the BJ video, all called the arrrows from where you were at no problem... with the exception of maybe Kendall's miss and 1 other one that I can't recall. And for those with bino's in the stands, we could all do the same. Yes there were close ones, and that is where the judging as it was done this year should come into play. To me that would speed that part up some and keep the spectators and hopefully tv viewing audience at some point, more involved. Just a suggestion. I like the way they are scored for what you said..it's fair and legit. I just think it should be reserved for arrows that are questioned.

And the last part, I guess its strange to me that so many archers will pay money to register, membership, airfare, hotel stay, food, practice, equipment.. spend all the time to prepare, and so forth.. and then complain that there is a shootoff, or that it lasts longer than a couple ends.. because it is BORING? No argument or anything, I just find that odd. I personally could watch archery all day, especially the top in the world in a shootoff controlling nerves. To me that is exciting, and hope Vegas doesn't change to where the shoot off is taken away. Just me I guess.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Some really good ideas have been submitted here and that was the intention of my original post. Spurious comments from people who don`t even shoot the Vegas Tournament only helps to muddy the waters. Chuck, I just want to say, publicly, that I think you are doing a wonderful job of chairing for us Pros. I am glad that Reo apparently DID obey the dress code and that is probably a dead issue(hooray, I am kind of tired of hearing about his non-compliance with so mundane an issue). Joe and Tom and Jeff have very valid points. I think the next pro meeting in Louisville is going to be lively and I hope the Pros can all be civil with their suggestions and work together for our common good instead of dividing into two or more camps and never getting anything accomplished. It is clear from the posts here on this poll that there are some very different ideas on how to increase the Vegas Shoot attendance and grow this aspect of our sport. I started this thread in order to get some conversation going on how to do just exactly that. My choices in the poll are not the only ones available but they are the ones I have heard that shooters are concerned mostly about. Let`s keep up the suggestions on this thread and maybe we can arrive at some good points to bring up at the pro meeting(Chuck perhaps you should make notes of these suggestions and use them as talking points at the meeting). BTW I, for one, really like the 3 judge rule in the shoot-offs. Stops a lot of non-sense and keeping their vote secret from the other judges is very smart. It is the Democratic way and it is being done correctly IMHO.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

I too thoroughly enjoy the shoot-offs(except when I have a severe nosebleed) and I think the top 20-40 should shoot-up like the Lancaster Classic. That would be more spectator friendly than trying to watch all the targets to try to determine who dropped what.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Why not keep the 900 scoring and change the target to the World Archery target with the micro ten ring? After three days of shooting, you seed the top eight and then go head to head. Even an old hard ass like me would like to see that one.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

deadx said:


> I too thoroughly enjoy the shoot-offs(except when I have a severe nosebleed) and I think the top 20-40 should shoot-up like the Lancaster Classic. That would be more spectator friendly than trying to watch all the targets to try to determine who dropped what.


Or just take lucky dog and all 900 shooters. Seed them march madness style and have them all shoot at the same time. single elimination last one standing wins. That would be fun to watch as a spectator. Especially if they get rid of the referee parade. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Unclegus said:


> Why not keep the 900 scoring and change the target to the World Archery target with the micro ten ring? After three days of shooting, you seed the top eight and then go head to head. Even an old hard ass like me would like to see that one.


Best idea I've read yet. 

There should be some reward for the top shooter through the 3 rounds.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

I also like the World Archery target with the micro 10 ring. Good one Unclegus!


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> Why not keep the 900 scoring and change the target to the World Archery target with the micro ten ring? After three days of shooting, you seed the top eight and then go head to head. Even an old hard ass like me would like to see that one.


If the Micro-X is the same size as the baby X on the Vegas face, then it's the same as the eleven ring scoring, except the 900 stays as perfect instead of 990. By head to head I assume you mean #1 vs. #8, etc. That would work for me. The only thing to decide then would be end to end sudden death or a multiple end match. To shorten things up, all matches could be shot at the same time, with 3 judge scoring at the discretion of the archers when necessary. It should be a good discussion at the Pro meeting this year, if Chuck brings it to the floor.
Joe B.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

that's true, but i'm sure no one would complain about the Stevie Wonder friendly size 9 ring.


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

In the money I would like to see 2 450 rounds. Then a large bracket style shootoff in vegas. I dont like the x 11. Could care less what size arrow.


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## PTH (Dec 30, 2004)

deadx said:


> Folks keep forgetting that you do not have to be an NFAA PRO to shoot on the Championship line. I didn`t talk to the guy from Norway since he didn`t speak a word of American. Reo Wilde wore blue jeans on the first day at Vegas when he is supposed to be a pro and adhere to the pro dress code so what standard are you referring to since the guy from Norway darn near beat everybody?


I was Reo's roommate at Vegas....he did not wear jeans on the first day of Vegas, or the second or the last day.....have no clue where this stuff comes from but it needs to stop!


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

PTH said:


> I was Reo's roommate at Vegas....he did not wear jeans on the first day of Vegas, or the second or the last day.....have no clue where this stuff comes from but it needs to stop!


It turns out that my info on Reo and jeans was wrong so I want to publicly apologize to Reo for posting that incorrect statement. That was a knee jerk reaction to someone else`s post. That is what we get for straying off topic.:embara:


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Steve no worse than when I find you wandering and straying around the woods,LOL


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

What are you talking about Don? I am a ghost in the woods.....a master of stealth and invisibilty and I always know where I am. Once I thought I was wrong where I was ........but I was mistaken.
Stay on topic Don!!!!! LOL!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Steve isn't from IOWA...er...I don't think so. So, I don't think he'd be quite as bad as those folks...IOWA is an acronym for:

*I*mbeciles *O*ut *W*andering *A*round, or so I've been told? ROFLMAO

Iowans...don't take offense, just go with the humor, ok? I'm a big Hawkeyes fan, ha!


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

Steve is from flat land and no guns. lol


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Oooooohhhhh!! I have guns and pretty soon I will be able to carry concealed. Illinois is slow about some things because Chicago has both arms wrapped around out ankles trying to slow us down. Most Illinoisans aren`t Libtards just like most `Sconsinites aren`t Libtards. We are Brothers of the right to keep and bear........


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## Ditch Pickle (Jun 8, 2011)

You grey hairs are getting your selfs all worked up...


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Ditch Pickle said:


> You grey hairs are getting your selfs all worked up...


Uh Bob....I don`t have any hair.LOL!


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## Ditch Pickle (Jun 8, 2011)

NOW THAT SOME FUNNY ****.:walk:


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Yea but if you did it would be grey,unless you colored it,LOL Can you say Illiosans? I cant believe you can even spell that,LOL


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## Ditch Pickle (Jun 8, 2011)

you guys crack me up


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Heck I cant even spell it and its right in front of me,sheesh,I knew it was hard. LMFAO


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Here it is phonetically: Ill-i-noyans. LOL!


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## jbhoyt (Nov 29, 2006)

It certainly is a-nnoying


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

OH Jim,you would come up with that one,LOL


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

I would vote for the 2 450 rounds on thurs and friday then the top 128 would shoot head to head till a winner is found on sunday but with slow process of getting scores and line times posted they are not set up for that.Lancaster does a awesome job getting it done


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