# Medelin World Cup event



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The usual qualification rankings for US Compounders. Still dominant - Well done guys!

Top three Korean women all shoot 670+ The fourth "dragged up behind" with ONLY a 659... LOL! That's unbelievable shooting. 

LaNola qualifies on top for US women at 643. Well done. That's a respectable score, esp. for a true "junior".

Other three are in the high 630's, which still isn't bad. Though a team rank of 8 will put them vs. Korea early.

Brady is shooting strong as usual. Frangilli and his Nano Pro's are out front for team Italy. However it looks like the Korean men aren't playing around at this world cup event. 1, 2, 3 so far in the qualification. Whew!

Don't see Jake's score up at all. Anyone know what's up?


----------



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Live streaming here http://www.worldarchery.org/EVENTS/World-Cup/2014/Medellin

Jake currently leading the US group.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

This is scary...after 36 arrows...
1	KIM Woojin KOR	1A	36	*353*
2	KU Bonchan KOR	2A	36	348
3	OH Jin Hyek KOR	3A	36	348


----------



## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

According to twitter kaminski was in 7th a few minutes ago


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

According to the WA scoreboard http://www.worldarchery.org/EVENTS/World-Cup/2014/Medellin/Scoreboard

14	ELLISON Brady USA	22B	36	336
15	KAMINSKI Jake USA	21B	36	335


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, there's Jake. A 335 - good job. Brady's 336 is very good too.

But HOLY CRAP. A 353 ?!? Is that a new WR?

Conditions had to be very, very good for that to have happened.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, the men's team is ranked 7th right now, so they need to do something in these next 36 arrows. Up or down.


----------



## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

How do you beat a 353 or even a 348?
Wow! Amazing!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jwalgast said:


> How do you beat a 353 or even a 348?
> Wow! Amazing!


Thank God for set system matchplay, eh? Otherwise, they could start engraving the medals already. The only chance many nations have of medaling vs. the Korean (men) is in head to head matchplay. Not sure if the Korean women are really even beatable right now. If the men ever get their mental game to the level of the women, it's game over.


----------



## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

It does make you wonder what it is that's makes the Koreans so dominant. Is it just the culture or are they just naturally built for shooting a bow. 

I know archery is much more main stream than it is here in the US - and so they have a larger talent pool of promising archers but they really seem to have the right formula.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Also incredible is HyeJin Chang placed third with a 675 and she shot a 2 in the second end. If it had been yellow, she would be in first with a 682.

Even with the 2, the 3 Korean ladies set a new world record for recurve womens team. Here is her score card for the first 36 arrows showing score of 337. 

View attachment 1953117


Chris


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> But HOLY CRAP. A 353 ?!? Is that a new WR?


I don't think so. It would have to have been shot in a 1440 round, and they don't keep records for half 720s.


----------



## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Ellison takes 3rd in the qualifying round - that dude always seems to make a comeback at the end of a round.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Dacer said:


> It does make you wonder what it is that's makes the Koreans so dominant. Is it just the culture or are they just naturally built for shooting a bow.
> 
> I know archery is much more main stream than it is here in the US - and so they have a larger talent pool of promising archers but they really seem to have the right formula.


...not rocket science for them....

..combination of discipline,training regimen and as you mentioned..culture.


----------



## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

Dacer said:


> Ellison takes 3rd in the qualifying round - that dude always seems to make a comeback at the end of a round.


I guess that's how you at least get close to a 353


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dacer said:


> Ellison takes 3rd in the qualifying round - that dude always seems to make a comeback at the end of a round.


Takes a while to get his interest, I think. I've seen it before many, many times. He's a slow starter, but good finisher. Many of the great ones are.

Too bad he and LaNola lost to Brazil (who went on to the gold medal match!) in mixed team. Could have been a real confidence builder for 'Nola.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

To really understand results in Medellin, you have to add to archer's specific skill and form level the management of their specif jet leg situation. The new Korean team is much stronger in men and ladies than last year one was, and they took the Medelin test very seriously, sending the team there 10 days before the event to properly absorb jet lag. For them, Medellin is +10 hours, for Italians is -7 hous, for some Russian is -10 hours. Of course, Americans have a clear advantage in Medellin , being all at 0 +-2 hours. Sending an archer to compete at -10 or +10 hours just 2 or 3 days before the ranking round means to bet on his personal reaction to jet lag, and each archer is different in it. Rule of thumb remains 1 day of acclimatation for each +1 hour , 0.7 days for each -1 hour . Unfortunately, national teams are sent here and there for 3 years over 4 just based on budget and politycs, with a lot of compromises for jet leg problemm, and from my records, several nations stil don't consider jet lag problems for archers even for Olympic qualify events. 
Then, average cycle for peak perfomancies excludes the possibilty to repeat a peak one in less than 15 days as absolute term, again very related to specific reaction of each archer (some one will ned 10 days, others more than 1 month). If you mix up this to a doubel jet lag (going and coming back home), the training (time) needed to get close to the end of the peak performance cycle, you will clearly see that archers are in same conditions on the shooting line may be 2 times only in 4 years: at the Olympic games qualify event and at the Olympic games, and there is were the world records tend to be broken.
The Koreans are the only ones apart from locals having prepared to this competition as it should have done.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Brilliant observations there Vittorio. Few coaches in the world have this perspective and understanding.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> This is scary...after 36 arrows...
> 1	KIM Woojin KOR	1A	36	*353*
> 2	KU Bonchan KOR	2A	36	348
> 3	OH Jin Hyek KOR	3A	36	348


Which to me, makes this performance by Brady, very impressive:

1 1A KIM Woojin KOR NR 353 / 1 341 / 2 48 15 694
2 3A OH Jin Hyek KOR 1 348 / 3 338 / 6 39 19 686
3 2A KU Bonchan KOR 151 348 / 2 337 / 8 40 18 685
4 22B ELLISON Brady USA 6 336 / 14 344 / 1 39 13 680
5 4A LEE Seungyun KOR 2 341 / 5 339 / 4 34 14 680


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

One of the Koreans (Kim, Bub-min) shot a 353 in the first half of the Olympic ranking round in 2012. Broke the existing 72-arrow world record and still finished 2nd to his teammate. Tough crowd!


----------



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Brilliant observations there Vittorio. Few coaches in the world have this perspective and understanding.


The US seem to be fairly on the ball! http://www.teamusa.org/News/2012/July/05/Team-USA-Shares-Advice-on-Fighting-Jet-Lag


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Different level of analysis and preparation than what Vittorio just suggested however.


----------



## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Few coaches in the world have this perspective and understanding.


maybe in archery - yes.
most of the top athletes competing around the world (tennis e.g.) are able to compensate jet lags quite good and will never take this for an excuse.

back to topic:
impressive performance of the south korean athletes!
again and again they step into the world cup and blow away almost erveryone else. 
and again they come with pretty conservative setups based on bows and arrows.
just one thing is interesting - almost every male korean archer uses the doinker supreme target dampers on upper and lower stabilizer threads.


----------



## indyarcher (Jan 6, 2003)

What distance is the qualifying round for compound, and what is it for recurve?


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

indyarcher said:


> What distance is the qualifying round for compound, and what is it for recurve?


50 meters for compound and 70 meters for recurve

Chris


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I see what people are saying about jet lag but it's interesting to me this is at a bit of altitude (nearly 5k feet).


----------



## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Wow a few interesting results in the round of 24. Some right matches, 5 shootofs and some notable names elinated.


----------



## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

van der ven....


----------



## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

Wow, looks none of the US women recurvers survived the round of 16.


----------



## Apollon (Dec 9, 2013)

But two - or three - German women survived. Great!
Even with more jet lag than the US women should have.


----------



## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

Apollon said:


> But two - or three - German women survived. Great!


 yeah - did a good job in shanghai too.

and still all 4 male korean in the competition. impressive peformance.


----------



## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

It occurred to me (again) that archery is quite a niche sport. I know it was only the 1/16th round, but I was one of 138 people IN THE WORLD who was watching the broadcast, according to the Ustream stats.


----------



## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Sosius said:


> It occurred to me (again) that archery is quite a niche sport. I know it was only the 1/16th round, but I was one of 138 people IN THE WORLD who was watching the broadcast, according to the Ustream stats.


Didn't know it was on ustream or I would have been on it.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I didnt know it was on ustream either. I would have watched it. 


Chris


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Sosius said:


> It occurred to me (again) that archery is quite a niche sport. I know it was only the 1/16th round, but I was one of 138 people IN THE WORLD who was watching the broadcast, according to the Ustream stats.


Archery certainly ain't the NFL, and doesn't/won't ever have the NFL fanbase - but part of the reason it's not a bigger niche than it is is 'not great marketing' on the part of USA Archery. How hard would it have been to send the membership a heads up email with links to this live streaming? I get weekly emails from Sirius/XM radio about upcoming special channels and events for the coming week; I get text msg reminders from Walgreens that it's time to renew my blood pressure meds; it would be nice (and easy) for USA Archery to _push_ relevant information to us about where/when our USA archers are competing next and how to tune in.


----------



## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I think it would be a pretty far off day until you see archery live on a sports network here in the US - if ever - but it would be cool to see a network advertise on TV that they will be streaming it on their website. Be pretty cool if ESPN streamed WC events.


----------



## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Thank God for set system matchplay, eh? Otherwise, they could start engraving the medals already. The only chance many nations have of medaling vs. the Korean (men) is in head to head matchplay. Not sure if the Korean women are really even beatable right now. *If the men ever get their mental game to the level of the women, it's game over*.


Game over


----------



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Archery certainly ain't the NFL, and doesn't/won't ever have the NFL fanbase - but part of the reason it's not a bigger niche than it is is 'not great marketing' on the part of USA Archery. How hard would it have been to send the membership a heads up email with links to this live streaming? I get weekly emails from Sirius/XM radio about upcoming special channels and events for the coming week; I get text msg reminders from Walgreens that it's time to renew my blood pressure meds; it would be nice (and easy) for USA Archery to _push_ relevant information to us about where/when our USA archers are competing next and how to tune in.


That's where forums like this come in useful (or in this case the World Archery website). I did post the link to Ustream Medellin at the top of this thread <shrug>.


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Joe T said:


> That's where forums like this come in useful (or in this case the World Archery website). I did post the link to Ustream Medellin at the top of this thread <shrug>.


And I did use it. Thanks.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Archery certainly ain't the NFL, and doesn't/won't ever have the NFL fanbase - but part of the reason it's not a bigger niche than it is is 'not great marketing' on the part of USA Archery. How hard would it have been to send the membership a heads up email with links to this live streaming? I get weekly emails from Sirius/XM radio about upcoming special channels and events for the coming week; I get text msg reminders from Walgreens that it's time to renew my blood pressure meds; it would be nice (and easy) for USA Archery to _push_ relevant information to us about where/when our USA archers are competing next and how to tune in.


+1 

Every successful venture knows how to self promote.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Joe T said:


> That's where forums like this come in useful (or in this case the World Archery website). I did post the link to Ustream Medellin at the top of this thread <shrug>.


Hi Joe!

Yes, which was good of you, and great for the benefit of the 30 people who regularly hang out in this forum. That still leaves thousands of archers, interested enough in archery to be USA Archery members, uninformed by USA Archery as to the competitive activities of their flagship Olympic team varsity. It would be like the New England Patriots traveling off to Denver for another Brady /Manning face off, and the Patriots don't advertise or let their fan base know that the game is happening.


----------



## rj2012 (Aug 16, 2013)

Interested enough in archery but not interested enough to " follow" along with the various social media apps that were used to let archers know about the event?! They even posted about the ustream but I was working and couldn't watch. I was curious to see the quality of it.


----------



## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't find it directly on Ustream. Only on the WorldArchery.org page. I'd like to be able to size the inset as desired.

Nice music.

Dave


----------



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Hi Joe!
> 
> Yes, which was good of you, and great for the benefit of the 30 people who regularly hang out in this forum. That still leaves thousands of archers, interested enough in archery to be USA Archery members, uninformed by USA Archery as to the competitive activities of their flagship Olympic team varsity. It would be like the New England Patriots traveling off to Denver for another Brady /Manning face off, and the Patriots don't advertise or let their fan base know that the game is happening.


Understand your point. Have same issue with the GB NGB but there is only so much they can do:
- Put it on the US website - how many people check the website and how often? Not so many people use RSS I guess.
- email all members on a routine basis on all possible topics of interest - this would really p*** of most of the membership.

Sensible to use WA site for all WA shoots re schedules, results, media coverage etc. On the Medellin main pages there was a very frequently repeated flash ad re the streaming.


----------



## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

rj2012 said:


> Interested enough in archery but not interested enough to " follow" along with the various social media apps that were used to let archers know about the event?! They even posted about the ustream but I was working and couldn't watch. I was curious to see the quality of it.


The quality was low, and the announcements were sparse. However, it was interesting to watch matches and brackets happen in real time. They save the high production values and veteran announcers for the ArcheryTV channel YouTube productions.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Personally, I think USArchery (Teresa Iaconi) is doing a fine job of updating the membership through FB and Twitter. I get regular FB messages regarding what's happening, and I use that to follow things like the world cup events, etc. So, any USArchery member can "like" the FB page or sign up for the twitter feed and get updates. 

Comparing archery fans to football fans isn't really fair. I mean, archery just isn't a spectator sport like football and many other sports are. It's nobody's "fault." It's just how it is. So, when even a die-hard archery fan won't sit and watch 4 hours of archery coverage, but they will watch Sunday night football for four hours, it's not USArchery's fault. It's the fact that archery is BORING to watch for long periods of time. Medal matches? Sure. That's exciting. But otherwise... <yawn> 

It's a sport you participate in. Not one you watch.


----------



## All Torque (May 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Brilliant observations there Vittorio. Few coaches in the world have this perspective and understanding.



...maybe they have the perspective and understanding but not the budget. 

As an outsider, even casual observation exposes the relative lack of money in archery. 

When you look something like golf, which quite frankly as a spectator sport is as boring as a senate filibuster... however despite this, both end up being splashed all over the media, the reason why is because rich, powerful people, like golf and they like politics.

On this forum there was a post, "Kim Soo Nyung to train Saudi princeses"

... not one reply.

Anyway... drifted OT there.

I think most coaches are aware of the detrimental effects of jet lag but soldier on regardless, doing the best they can.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ...
> It's a sport you participate in. Not one you watch.


Too many are forgetting this, John...


----------



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

...............It's a sport you participate in. Not one you watch.
..............Too many are forgetting this, John... 

Problem is - with the set system most of the archers very quickly end up watching (or going home) instead of participating.....remember those day long Fita rounds?


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Ah well, I thought the push was to make the sport more watchable and therefore more Olympic and general public friendly. So if this is the thrust, improving the fan experience is important. 

I went to USAA to check Gator Cup standings. You know, to check on the shooters who did not make the podium. I found the process to be cumbersome and had to back track to the Ianseo site.

There are opportunities for USAA to improve in this area. And that is not a knock on Teresa.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> When you look something like golf, which quite frankly as a spectator sport is as boring as a senate filibuster... however despite this, both end up being splashed all over the media, the reason why is because rich, powerful people, like golf and they like politics.


Golf is very popular to watch because it is a very popular sport. But also because there is great fan interaction and a big fan base for each individual golfer. Like "Nascar" we get to know our favorites, and we get to watch them through a round of challenges and see how they respond to those challenges. Golf is infinitely more spectator friendly than archery.

Want proof? What was the "fastest growing sport" in the 1960's? Nope, not golf. It was archery. And it was a time when people were clamoring for sports on this new thing called Television. 

Golf WORKED for TV because of exciting personalities like Arnold Palmer, Gary Player, Nicklaus and Trevino. Fans got to watch them go head-to-head for hours negotiating countless challenges, making brilliant and creative shots.

We have almost none of that in archery. We don't get to see an archer's creativity. There is NOTHING creative about archery at all. Point and shoot, point and shoot. It is why even though I've been stuck between a 5 and 10 handicap for a decade now and have quit the game 3 times, I still look forward to a round of golf whenever I can sneak one in. Because every day is different, every hole is different, and every shot is different. And, there is a cause and effect and strategy in golf.

Archery? Did they try to televise it in the 60's? I think they did. But who remembers? The most exciting thing on film about archery in those days was Ben Pearson standing on the front end of a jonboat shooting balloons as they sped across a lake, or shooting ducks out of the air mid-flight, or Howard Hill splitting arrows or shooting cigarettes out of lady's mouths. That made the news reel or the movie trailer. Not target archery. It was those scenes of Hill, Pearson and Bear that got me excited about archery. And you know what? They were all accomplished target archers. Hill was one of the best target archers the U.S. has ever known. But do we have newsreel footage and movie trailers of Hill shooting targets? Nope.


----------



## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Golf is very popular to watch because it is a very popular sport. But also because there is great fan interaction and a big fan base for each individual golfer.


and that's just the crux of the matter why stating "archery is a sport to particapate and not to watch" is the wrong way to get archery out of the niche.

golf - and a very good example are somewinter sports like ski jumping or biathlon which get large media echo and thousands of spectators thus no one will do this in recreation... ;-)


----------



## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

So the USA men's team goes against Korea in the Semi's?


----------



## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh. Damn. No shot at gold....


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Korea has 5 out of a possible 6 individual archers in the medal matches. Only reason they don't have 6 is because two Korean women faced each other in the previous round. Amazing.

Both Brady and Jake had an opportunity to defeat a Korean male archer, and both shot 107's for their first 12 arrows, to a 113 and 114 for Oh, and Lee. 

Korean men did not shoot a single arrow out of the gold in the Semi-final team event. Our boys shot really well, but that's pretty tough to beat.

Why do I get the impression that the Korean recurvers are trying to send a message with this event?


----------



## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Why do I get the impression that the Korean recurvers are trying to send a message with this event?


Whether they are trying to or not, they are sending a message all right!


----------



## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

The message came across loud and clear after the first 18 arrows when two of their men were on pace to break 700!


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Chinese women just picked off the Korean women. So there is a chance for the rest of the world with the set system.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wow. Good for them!


----------



## Apollon (Dec 9, 2013)

:rock-on: And good for the German women too! :rock-on:


----------



## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

Great match in recurve men's team gold, Korea vs India. India shot 59s for their last 2 sets and still lost.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Golf is very popular to watch because it is a very popular sport. But also because there is great fan interaction and a big fan base for each individual golfer. Like "Nascar" we get to know our favorites, and we get to watch them through a round of challenges and see how they respond to those challenges. Golf is infinitely more spectator friendly than archery.
> 
> Want proof? What was the "fastest growing sport" in the 1960's? Nope, not golf. It was archery. And it was a time when people were clamoring for sports on this new thing called Television.
> 
> ...


So, maybe the elimination matches should have target faces where the '10' is off to the side of the target face somewhere, surrounded by a second '3' ring, and the eight ring is skinny, with the '2' ring next to it. Make the target face more like a golf green, with the main objective being guarded by 'hazards', where the risk/reward is dramatic ("gotta have a '10' to get back in this match, but if he misses it, he's saddled with a '3', Bob!"). That would put some strategy into it.

Or, if you shoot an 'x', you get an additional arrow to hit a small spot that, if successful, would subtract 5 points from the opponent.

You get the idea.


----------



## dmassphoto (Feb 8, 2010)

lksseven said:


> So, maybe the elimination matches should have target faces where the '10' is off to the side of the target face somewhere, surrounded by a second '3' ring, and the eight ring is skinny, with the '2' ring next to it. Make the target face more like a golf green, with the main objective being guarded by 'hazards', where the risk/reward is dramatic ("gotta have a '10' to get back in this match, but if he misses it, he's saddled with a '3', Bob!"). That would put some strategy into it.
> 
> Or, if you shoot an 'x', you get an additional arrow to hit a small spot that, if successful, would subtract 5 points from the opponent.
> 
> You get the idea.


Field archery in some pretty cool venues would probably do the trick.


----------



## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I find it very interesting that the US archers seem to struggle more with the individual matches than the team matches. I haven't been able to watch many of the matches, but try to keep up with the results. Still, I really wonder what it different about the team matches that enables our archers to excel more easily.


----------



## dmassphoto (Feb 8, 2010)

Mulcade said:


> I find it very interesting that the US archers seem to struggle more with the individual matches than the team matches. I haven't been able to watch many of the matches, but try to keep up with the results. Still, I really wonder what it different about the team matches that enables our archers to excel more easily.


If I were going up against the Koreans, I'd want backup too


----------



## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

I remember reading something that said successful spectator sports were based round "the hunt". For example football you have the build up, possible failure, by loosing the ball or being tackled, chase and the kill (the goal). You can apply this to a lot of sports that are popular. Golf for example has the same. Build up, chase (keeping the number of shots low over the challenging course) and the kill (the put). It even fits with darts. Archery on the other hand doesn't really fit this its lacking one or more elements. Maybe something like the "Gold game" would fit better.

saying that as an archer I do enjoy watching the matches!


----------



## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

dmassphoto said:


> If I were going up against the Koreans, I'd want backup too


Good point! :wink:


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I know this is a little late, but dang! Just watched the men's team bronze medal match on replay. J Cusick was on fire - 4 tens and 2 nines. Awesome shooting under pressure.

ps - did anyone else notice how much, from 15 feet away, Cusick looks like Brady? Same body type, same posture, same general facial features. If you told me they were brothers, I'd think "well, duh, of course they're brothers - just look at 'em!"


----------



## waxyjaywalker (Apr 10, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Golf is very popular to watch because it is a very popular sport. But also because there is great fan interaction and a big fan base for each individual golfer. Like "Nascar" we get to know our favorites, and we get to watch them through a round of challenges and see how they respond to those challenges. Golf is infinitely more spectator friendly than archery.
> 
> Want proof? What was the "fastest growing sport" in the 1960's? Nope, not golf. It was archery. And it was a time when people were clamoring for sports on this new thing called Television.
> 
> ...



I think the limited creative aspects of archery come in setup. We've all got little stories about tinkering our equipment, i'm sure a charming archer can talk for a few minutes about how changing, say the vbar angle, affects the balance at different distances. but that's about it


----------



## All Torque (May 10, 2014)

Loved the Natalya Erdynieva vs Joo Hyun Jung bronze medal match. 

Natalya was shaking like a leaf at the end yet still pulled through - courageous effort!


----------

