# Pulling hard into the wall



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I have found that the only way that I can get small left and right variation in shots is to pull very hard into the wall. My bow is currently 75 to 80 percent let off. My max weight is about 45 lbs. So this means that I am holding around 9 or 10 lbs. With this low holding weight my shots spread 4 or more inches at 20 yards. But when I pull harder into the wall I can get this spread down to 1.5" and sometimes less. It seems that the bow shoots best with about 15 to 18 lbs of pull into the wall.

My bow has adjustable draw stops which change the draw length as well as the percentage let off. If I make a longer string this will increase the draw length. If I then moved the draw stops I could get my draw length back and at the same time I would be decreasing my let off.

How would you go about keeping a specific draw length while decreasing your let off?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

I shoot a 60 % letoff bow plus pull into wall ,if you had less letoff you will shoot more consistent.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Adjust the stops and then change the twists in the cables to get the draw length back


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

a longer string would actually increase felt let off. the cams would wrap further on return to brace. if your let-off is adjustable decrease it to around 65%. most target shooters prefer less let-off because it makes the variations in release flaws, less critical. dropping into such a deep valley, makes every flaw exaggerated on release.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The cams on this bow are binary with machined draw stops on the modules. The cams also have adjustable limb stops. I remembered that I have some longer modules that I took off because the bow was wanting to take off on me. Since I am having to hold harder into the wall these longer modules should give me less let off and a shorter valley when the limb stops are set to a shorter draw length than the modules. 

I may make this module swap later today.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I would note that binary cams are not the friendliest cams for bare shaft tuning.
I don't believe I've owned more than two compound bow with less than 75% let off. Those two compound bows were wheel bows of old, both Pearsons. From my 1999 Golden Eagle to my newest Pearson target bow all have been 75 and 80% let off and I've done well in all archery venues, 3D, Indoor, Outdoor, and Field.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Inexperience talking here, but if the OP is pulling that hard into the wall, what does the let off percentage really matter? I guess, and probably wrongly so, that if it were me I would shorten the DL ever so slightly and put more preload into the back wall, especially if that was where my best groups were coming from. Not familiar with many bows, but on all of mine the draw stop adjustments are in 1/2" increments, and while I can't completely wrap my head around changing the stops and draw length, simply moving the stops on my PSE nearly all but eliminated the valley.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Blind you are right moving the stops often shortens the valley . In creating the holding weight will improve the hold with out having to rip into the wall. Ripping into a solid wall will Change as you get tired increasing the holding weight and just staying firmly on the stops is more consistent . Imho


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Left/right 4" at 20 yes is extreme. I deal with 1/4" changes. Betting it is grip inconsistency


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## jmclfrsh (Dec 23, 2014)

I prefer to just get into the limb stops, then relax as much as I can with both arms while maintaining the tension against the limb stops and not have it come off them. And I steer the pin with my draw hand onto the target while focusing on the target spot itself, not the pin. 

Another thing is try just barely touching your reference points, i.e., you nose tip and mouth. I pull into the limb stop, relax both arms and bring my face to the string and just barely touch it. That way I know where I am, but am not deflecting the string and causing the string to spring away from my face upon release which contributes to left/right inconsistency, at least in my own shooting.

Those are things I've learned on here, tried and have worked wonders for me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

oldpro is probably right there,....
4 inches at twenty yards most likely isn't because of the bow itself. I think many of us don't really realize just how exact a science shooting a modern compound can be. many are way to quick to blame their group size on something the bow is doing and don't realize they are doing it themselves. these modern bows, as good as they are,.....are in my opinion, machines that work perfectly fine when they are operated perfectly and can be SOB's when they aren't, in the least little way.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the best lessons to learn is probably what is fueling your success with pulling into the wall, it is Back Tension Preload. To me coming to anchor and just sitting in the valley and barely touching the wall is something that most all archers do. That is why a nice big valley that is not overly agressive and wanting to rip out your shoulder is very popular with normal shooters. But once you learn how to dial in your draw length properly then you can actually apply the correct amount of preload to the wall and stop just sitting in the valley wandering around. The correct amount of preload is the amount of back tension that compliments your shooting in a couple areas, one is reduced float and the other is a consistent feel where there is no creep during the shot.

I have a article on this subject that you can advanced search for and it is a nice read and it gives you a look into a nice area of your shooting where you can clean up things and make them a little sweeter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I typed "back tension preload" into the advanced search and scrolled down a ways and found it, it is a nice long thread and in it are about three posts by me where I give all the little details that this complimented my shooting and a few other good posts by cbrunson that gave some good stuff.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You back tension preload article is what pointed me in the direction of pulling hard into the wall.

One of my biggest problems is my grip. pulling hard into the wall helps to smooth out the grip problems. I am also concentrating more on my grip which seems to be helping.

I put some 28.5" modules on and set the draw to 28". I now have no valley. The poundage just slowly drops until I hit the limb stops. If I creep the bow starts pulling but does not try to jerk the string forward. The setup is just going to keep me honest.

So far I like the new set up.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

jim p said:


> You back tension preload article is what pointed me in the direction of pulling hard into the wall.
> 
> One of my biggest problems is my grip. pulling hard into the wall helps to smooth out the grip problems. I am also concentrating more on my grip which seems to be helping.
> 
> ...


Just remember one very, very important thing about this "hard into the wall thing"...For every millimeter you pull 'harder' into the wall, you increase the holding weight and thus the thrust of the arrow by ONE POUND/millimeter!
I've run extensive measurements and tests with varying levels of archers and my data suggest that...depending upon the level of the archer, the "to anchor drawlength" varies substantially from shot to shot in an end, end by end and as the round progresses!
The mid to lower level archers' "to anchor" drawlength from shot to shot VARIES by as much as 3/8", and they swear they are pulling to the same spot every time....until they are shown that they indeed are NOT doing that consistently.
The mid-to high level shooters "to anchor" drawlength varies by 1/16" to 1/4"..much better, but still NOT as consistent as they think by "pulling hard into the wall it is the same every time"...>NOT!
Now, the high level shooters' "to anchor drawlength" varies by less than 1/16" from shot to shot, and doesn't vary much more than that even towards the last arrow in an end or the round! THAT has a lot to do with why they are so consistent on X-counts and scores! 
"To Anchor Drawlength" is by far one of the most important aspects of shooting form and consistency.
Just because you "think" you are pulling hard into the wall makes it the same every time is a fallacy many shooters are falling into, especially with the higher letoff bows of today!
Get your "to anchor drawlength" correct and consistent and watch your groups and scores go up accordingly. Don't trust this "hard into the wall" thing to be an automatic assurance you are actually coming to the same point every time from shot to shot, end to end and finish up a round the same as you had when you started!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I think for me the biggest thing I have learned to enjoy is the feel of it happening. For me it isn't a pull into the wall with my hand, i come to anchor and as I am settling into my peep I feel my back muscles squeeze and I can feel the wall in my back muscles and the back side of my arm from my shoulder up to my elbow.

I don't over do it, I experimented with excessive amounts of preload and then backed off to where I was just sitting in the valley and that gave me the two extreme sides and I then found that nice amount that is easy to repeat and feels really good.

I had trouble in the beginning to remember to do it because I was a valley sitter for so long and I would go right back to sitting in there but it didn't take long before it became a solid part of my shot and now I don't have to think about it at all and it just happens, in fact if I don't apply any preload I feel it instantly and it feels horrible.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I just had the best day of shooting in years. 1.5" spread. Many arrows were in the same hole.

My bow shoulder got tired so it may take a little practice to adjust to this new setup.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I have a luxury of shooting either with cable stops or limb stops on the same bow, and I can tell it is a huge difference between these two setups. For either way of course you have to be well prepared to score well, switching there and back is not really a single day transition.
For past 2-3 years I shot with cable stops, 60% letoff modules, and I set the bow DL within a single millimeter to my body, easily fine tuned the DL with a d-loop. The most important with this setup is a precise creep tune, I did for myself if my draw collapses (meaning bow arm drops as well) the POI would be high about 1" @ 50. 
This year I have installed the limb stops for first time after many years and I needed couple tournaments to realize the pros and cons through a "live" shooting. I sad "live shooting" because this is very different then you just practice or train your form, you can monitor as much you want the float or how the entire bow feels and fits but the real performance is off the table. 
Now me to explain that "give" what it means between these two scenarios....
The limb stops have way less room to play with a right back pressure, lot of tweaking the DL to get it right in any means. This may be a reason people pull so hard (and I do pull right now about 26+ lbs over the limit from 23 lbs letoff I measured on the draw board, on the 60% module what ends like 54ish % or even less with my #55).
With a cable stops (some people may call these bows a bit spongy) I set the DL let say 1-2 millimeters shorter so when I am at the full draw (let say holding on 22 lbs) just watching the pin movement, if wonders a bit faster I just pull it maybe 1 millimeter longer - or 2mm longer - into the cable (the holding weight is still 23 lbs or maybe 23.5 lbs) but the float tightens down easily and the POI is the same...but with limb stops there is nowhere more to pull but in the solid back wall resulting you wrestling 26-27 lbs on a lets say any 50ish lbs bow... people mostly misinterpreting the DW and letoff but the holding position in that real BT muscle is the only one important to score well.
I can say I had better year around scores with cable stops then limb stops, and I didn't just sad I like one way better then the other in a "feel" at full draw.
These are my findings, your oppinion may wary but you will never know until trying out yourself.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Sounds like it is working keep the front shoulder down creeping up made mine sore enough had to take time off


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the shoulder joint (as a unit) can't rely on "bone to bone contact for stability and consistency,....there is no skeletal structure like that which makes "bone to bone" in the shoulder. 
it relies entirely on musculature and the best condition to produce stability consistently, is as if, "standing at attention" Military style,....shoulders down and back, chest out. this alignment sets the whole arm up for the best ability to support the shot and be steady while doing it.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

field14 said:


> Get your "to anchor drawlength" correct and consistent and watch your groups and scores go up accordingly.


Tom, how does one get their "to anchor draw length" consistent? This makes a lot of sense to me but I cannot figure out how to even measure it. Have a buddy watch with a length marked arrow? That doesn't seem to be able to give real accurate or consistent measurements.

ideas?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

This is the only bow that I have owned with limb stops. These limb stops require a different technique of shooting. When I had bows with cable stops I could use bt and just pull through the shot. I couldn't do that with limb stops. I had to learn to relax my release hand while pulling to get the back tension to work.

It appears that high letoff bow with limb stops are not for me. 

Now that I have decreased the let off my arrows are hitting where aimed. I still have about a 1.5" spread but this is because I just can't hold any better at this time. I feel like I can continue to improve now. When I was shooting a 6" spread and not knowing why I felt like no matter what I did there was no way to shoot any better.

It has only been a 4 year journey.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I stopped trying to measure with a tape measure when I got my hands on a draw board, mine is a hooter shooter but it allows me to pull it back and make a mark on the machine that just stays there. Then I can put any of my bows in there and easily see if they are the same and then make them the same.

With that said I think you have to simply change your draw length and shoot and over time you can find a setting that compliments your float and your firing engine and your overall feel. Once you find that setting getting it saved either with a measurement or a mark on the draw board is the key.

By the way to me the key is measuring from the deepest pard of the grip up top back to the d-loop, this is the distance that tells you in real time your perfect setting, then going from a hunting bow that is short to a longer target bow becomes pretty straight forward. The hunting bow may have a slightly longer draw length with a short d-loop where the target bow may have a slightly shorter draw length with a longer d-loop to get both of them to have that same length but both of them will fit your face and nose.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I actually just came off a couple months of shooting with a slightly longer draw length, last winter just before x-mas I had a couple weeks where I peaked with my indoor shooting with the longer setting and I shot a 300 29x vegas and 300 28x vegas and many other great days of shooting with it. I just didn't like the feel and shortened up for the rest of the winter to a much better feeling setting and shot well but not that well. 

So this summer since i am only training because of money trouble I thought it was a great time to go ahead and use that longer setting and give it a little more time spent since it had been something during my great couple weeks of indoor. After a couple months of good shooting something just wasn't right, it just felt like I was a little stretched out and I had a a few to many times where I would loose the wall and creep forward and I just didn't like the feel. So the two months of testing was a success in proving to me that my other setting was just better.

I really think that my two weeks of great indoor shooting was more of a mental thing where I was focused and smooth and simply executing perfect shots over and over and over and my shooting was so strong that it soaked up the fact that my draw length was a little long. I can say that since changing back I just feel right weather I have poor footing or perfect footing or when I am warming up or when I am finishing a shooting session. With the longer setting it felt like something was wrong and at anytime something bad was going to happen and that creates a lot of stress that is wasted thought in your shot.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion. I may start experimenting with my draw length to see if float or hold will improve. My d loop is shorter than I like so I may lengthen it and then if needed I will shorten the draw a little more.

When I was shooting with a 6" spread, I could be holding dead center and have an arrow go into the 8 ring. At that time changing draw length might have resulted in a better hold but the results would have been crazy.

I am excited and I am going to keep making tiny adjustments. If I can hold on the x, the arrow will hit the x. This is a first for me with my current target bow.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This is a very simple job and something that is so over looked, for years I simply put my module in the 29 inch setting and that was it. when I got a new string set I just put it on and never once thought of actually making sure that my draw length was the same. Now that I have a mark on my draw board it is so simple to just draw back and see if it is the same and then twist the bow string until it matches. done.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In fact in the beginning once I started trying to do this and keep track I was measuring during my tuning phase and getting it right but then a few months later even though I was shooting good I hadn't checked it at all and I found that as the strings stretched I had lengthened way past where I started. Now I just put it in the draw board ever few weeks and check as a normal maintenance thing.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I have an arrow marked that I use to check draw length. This method does not take into account the length of the d loop. I may have to come up with a method that will measure the draw length with the d loop included. My current d loop is 1/2" from the front of the string to the front edge of the back of the d loop. So the total draw span is 28.5".

Well this is not correct because I have to subtract 1.75" because the 28"s is the amo draw length. So I guess the total draw span is 26.75".


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## sixstringer4528 (Feb 28, 2014)

Pete53 said:


> I shoot a 60 % letoff bow plus pull into wall ,if you had less letoff you will shoot more consistent.


Absolutely true. If you get lazy and try to make the bow do all the work at full draw, that's when it hits the fan.


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## jmclfrsh (Dec 23, 2014)

I put a heavier spring in my HBX so I could pull harder into the wall as I aimed on my Arena 34 last night. My groups were tighter than utilizing the lighter spring, and I switched back and forth several times to make sure of that.

I also started shooting three-arrow ends, not six, to lessen my fatigue as before I would shoot 70-80 arrows easy every night. My groups stayed tighter for the first 39-42 arrows then I started not doing so well, so I think I'll back it down on the volume for awhile to get more out of each and every arrow I do fire. Keep doing three-arrow ends for awhile. I shoot at 30, 40, 50 and 60. Rarely do I do 20 or 70 yards outside. I'll get enough 20 yds inside during Ohio winters. 

I also let down more than usual last night. If my pin just would not settle down, I'd let down and try again, focus on my draw arm alignment, and that helped tremendously also.


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