# "Sacrifices" by Olympians...



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One more thought here. In archery, nobody sacrifices like our compound USAT and world cup members. Pay to play. No OTC. That's sacrifice.

John


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i guess it's all relative John...

......i once visited a home in the province wherein they felt so lucky to be able to eat an egg once a week!!

i have also been with some privileged few who considered taking a cab(or any public transportation) a BIG sacrifice....or traveling economy/business class instead of first class!!


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks for talking about this. I definitely understand where you're coming from. As a collegiate archer, archery is absolutely an escape and i can't imagine what it must be like to have archery as a job/responsibility. 

It reminds me of this article by Seo Hyang Soon on how rigid the archery program is over in Korea and how people really do give up everything else for a chance at the Olympics.

http://view.koreaherald.com/kh/view.php?ud=20120803000675


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's just it though. What are they "giving up?" I guess I just don't see it that way at all. They have been given a talent - at no cost to them - that they can apply to play sport all day, every day. Meanwhile, all the folks they graduated high school with are out in the real world, trying to make their way like the rest of us, and would love to be in their shoes.

The female U.S. weightlifter who slept on a mat on a gym floor and ate at the local food bank so she could train. That's sacrifice. 

Getting an apartment at the OTC surrounded by olympic hopefuls, eating 3 fantastic meals / day that you don't have to prepare, or ever having to do dishes? Being flown around the world on someone else's dime and given a cash stipend? This is sacrifice?

Maybe it's like that scene in The Princess Bride when Inigo tells Vicini " You keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means..."

I get it that many Olympic hopefuls put the rest of their lives "on hold" so to speak. The same could be true of any of us that attended college - that we put our lives "on hold" for our studies. But is that sacrificing?


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## Monumental11 (Jul 26, 2012)

My parents were missionaries in Haiti and in Southeast Asia. Trust me, if the Olympians are giving up anything, its hard to see. The word that you haven’t used John is a simple one: Opportunity. Some people who think they are sacrificing anything, be thankful for the opportunity to sacrifice. Serious. Most people would never dream of having to chance to do this.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> i guess it's all relative John...
> 
> ......i once visited a home in the province wherein they felt so lucky to be able to eat an egg once a week!!
> 
> i have also been with some privileged few who considered taking a cab(or any public transportation) a BIG sacrifice....or traveling economy/business class instead of first class!!


I'm sure you're right. It is relative. But some people could sure use some perspective in my opinion.

And maybe what I'm most tired of is the media's race to paint any "effort" as a sacrifice of some kind. Life is work. The best you can hope for is that it is fun and productive. So many in the media use that word "sacrifice" as it applies to training. But as a professional athlete (and face it, that's what they are) they are just going to work. It's no more a sacrifice than my wife doing her prep's to teach the next day's high school Chemistry class. But for some reason, the media doesn't see that as a "sacrifice" because it's her job. 

John


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Some of it is blatant sensationalizing, which the media is pretty much paid to do, in this age of 24-hour news cycles where there's no ACTUAL news, but something needs to be broadcast...

But how much of this is really just the plain and simple fact that so few people in this society (USA) actually has any concept of the meaning of REAL work?

ANY level of PHYSICAL EXERTION must sound like a sacrifice to thesorts of people who cannot fathom more physical exertion than reaching over to pick up the remote. ANY level of EFFORT must sound truly tortuous to someone who has always settled for good enough, and gotten the medal to prove he showed up to at least half of the practices. Sacrifice? I'll bet it sounds like sacrifice to a lot of people -- the ones who think that going to work out for 30 minutes twice a week is horrific, let alone all day every day. Oh, and all that "confrontation" of actually having to COMPETE against someone else -- and maybe... gasp... lose??!!

Far too many Americans have, sadly, become a big, whiny, fat, lazy, gaggle of pansies. Not all of us, and I wouldn't even dare say MOST of us, but way too many.

The media merely caters to its clientele.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

Thank you!!!! I couldn't agree with you more.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

And as the article noted, the US is the only country that does not support its athletes, which is a crying shame. We (they) compete on behalf of the US, yet are not "employed" by the US. That means that all their efforts end up being a benifit for their counrty in the end. Doubt it? Look at the news - the US is currently in second place for medal standings. Who earned their first gold medal in men's archery? Korea, not the archer. Let's ask Microsoft if they ever designed software so that any other company could claim its success.

And what don't we know about sacrifices? I can tell you about sacrifices. We're the champs there. Trust me.

The sacrifices are huge across the board though. Athletes are getting GED's in lieu of attending normal schools. They're postponing college. They're living off of basically nothing, and what little they earn through shooting gets spent in travel expenses plus some. Parents can suffer also. I'd hate to think what car I could be driving, or what house I could be living in had Miranda grown up a "normal" person. I don't have a lot of things, but I decided a long time ago that this is what I wanted to do for her, so I sacrifice with a smile. it's how I choose.

What about next time? Should she take off college before her SR year to attend Reo? Financial aid packages come due a year early, grants come to an end, college acceptance all over again, but tougher the second time arround. And how does that affect someones life? I know that too....I'm working on my own degrees, albeit for a different reason. Trust me, in this market, a late starter in a field is SOL. What happens to Brady if something unfortunate were to happen to him? What options does he have through archery? Talk about the ultimate sacrifice? Trust me, "I'm an Olympian" only makes your resume more appealing. It doesn't make you more qualified or experienced.

And what about living at the OTC? What a megar existance. Some own cars, some own bicycles, most own some sort of equipment, but to my knowledge, Hoyt supplys the program, not the archers....so some don't even have that rightfully. Nothing is theirs except trivial belongings, including their own time. I don't know about you, but I couldn't do it....sell everything I have worked my entire life for to train for a living as an athlete with no financial backup? Whoa, that's like asking a football player to play for 30K a year...sure, it's enough to get by on, but if the qb doesn't get protection from his offensive line, he'll be in the soup kitchens by the time his landlord gets arround to mowing again. I'm guessing these are the reasons John isn't continuing on the Olympic path.

And then I have to point out that ther have been several threads over the last while pointing out how "we" want a more successfull archery program. We? Surely these threads can't be refering to the United States we. Just who is wanting the improvement here, and for what? I know the people making the effort, and the list consists of a bunch of personal names and a few corporate names.....none of which are a country or 3rd party individuals. Now I know the USAA we wants improvement, but their lack of funding to support true carreer athletes limits their abilities......they are trying, but that doesn't change the inability for them to complete the task on their own. Just think what difference the funding to only one congressional earmark could make to the sport of archery and Olympic sports in general? With funding, we could excell in several sports, and all we'd miss is a study that determines termites perfer pine over oak (or visa versa should the study prove so)

Ok, there's the pot, I stired it up really good. Now what?


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## [W.S.Z] (Aug 6, 2012)

Next time you don't feel so well, well, think again, because chances are that within a mile from your location someone is dying of cancer. Oh, and ever felt hungry? Think of that girl in Africa who has hardly eaten a thing since a fortnight ago. Feeling a little irritated by my post? Think of what someone will feel if a random guy chooses to burn his house just for the fun of it.

Partly, I agree with you, the media are hyping stories, just because it sells good. On the other hand, athletes do give up some parts of their life, they make sacrifices. It doesn't make them people to pity, they are privileged people, doing what they are doing, but even in that situation, they make sacrifices. But, you can't have it all and in relation to other things, the sacrifices are negligible. But everything is, in one way or the other, even the pain you're feeling when you break your arm is negligible to pain people are feeling in the torture chambers in Iran.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Huntmaster,

_"The sacrifices are huge across the board though. Athletes are getting GED's in lieu of attending normal schools. They're postponing college. They're living off of basically nothing, and what little they earn through shooting gets spent in travel expenses plus some. Parents can suffer also. I'd hate to think what car I could be driving, or what house I could be living in had Miranda grown up a "normal" person. I don't have a lot of things, but I decided a long time ago that this is what I wanted to do for her, so I sacrifice with a smile. it's how I choose.

What about next time? Should she take off college before her SR year to attend Reo? Financial aid packages come due a year early, grants come to an end, college acceptance all over again, but tougher the second time arround. And how does that affect someones life? I know that too....I'm working on my own degrees, albeit for a different reason. Trust me, in this market, a late starter in a field is SOL. What happens to Brady if something unfortunate were to happen to him? What options does he have through archery? Talk about the ultimate sacrifice? Trust me, "I'm an Olympian" only makes your resume more appealing. It doesn't make you more qualified or experienced."_


"They're postponing college" So, these athletes (hard working, admirable, lucky) are - of their own volition - postponing one opportunity (college) in order to pursue another ... how exactly is that sacrifice? If I choose the steak on the restaurant menu, does that mean I've 'sacrificed my chance at the lobster'? We're talking about CHOICES here.

You're to be commended for your efforts toward supporting your child and her chasing her dreams and ambitions - truly (and you should be (and I know you are) very proud of your daughter, and not just because she's such an accomplished archer). But, with all due respect, how is what you've done anymore noteworthy than any other responsible parent's efforts to support his or her own child's dreams? 

_"What about next time? Should she take off college before her SR year to attend Reo?"_
Well, I guess she'll have to prioritize her wants and desires and responsibilities, and make choices to 'do A, and therefore not get to do B; or do B, and therefore not get to do A', just like all other responsible citizens do. 

_"What happens to Brady if something unfortunate were to happen to him?"_
Well, what happens to ANY OF US if something unfortunate were to happen to us? 

These athletes are gifted and hard working and accomplished. Their discipline and drive and goal-focused tenacity should be commended; their accomplishments should be cheered ... that's all.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Pardon me if I get this backward, but it was a little difficult to tell which side you were arguing...



Huntmaster said:


> The sacrifices are huge across the board though. Athletes are getting GED's in lieu of attending normal schools. They're postponing college. They're living off of basically nothing, and what little they earn through shooting gets spent in travel expenses plus some.


So, what you're saying is that, it's a sacrifice to have to spend money in order to pursue a voluntary activity, and then travel to the locations where you participate in that voluntary activity? But, perhaps you're right. After all, I got to take my last international business trip at the expense of the Federal Government. But then again, I spent it floating in a 40,000 ton warship with 2,999 of my "closest friends," armed to the teeth, prepared for whatever might come in the course of pursuing our vocations. Meanwhile, I missed Christmas, Thanksgiving, 3 birthdays, 1 anniversary...

The same comments apply to basically everything else I read there as well. Are there inconveniences to being a full-time athlete -- no doubt. But they come as the result of choices. We all make choices. And we all have consequences from those choices. I accept that my life is the result of my choices, but let's not set up these guys as somehow more noble than everyone else -- because that's the connotation of the word sacrifice.

Some lines of work are harder than others, and some require more or less inconvenience. A guy working at the local print shop can be laid off just as quickly as a QB can have his career ended by a bad hit. So can an archer. The guy at the print shop is making the same sacrifices -- but his reward is not personal glory in the form of an Olympic medal. It's food on the table for his family, it's a car that gets him to and from work without breaking down, and maybe, if he's lucky, and he hasn't got any major financial crises in his life that year, it's a week off from work to take his kids on a vacation to the beach. Maybe.

Look, we all admire what they do. Many of us envy the opportunity they have. But let's not pretend they're all forced into this altruistic life of self-sacrifice. Sacrifice implies no return for the hardship. It implies an entirely one-way outlay of effort. But these guys GET TO DO NOTHING BUT PLAY A SPORT. That's a choice, and it's also it's own reward. It's amazing they even HAVE the opportunity to make that choice. But it's not sacrifice when it comes with due reward. Sacrifice is unrewarded, unrecognized hardship purely and solely for the sake of something/someone else.

Choosing your own hardship to collect your own rewards is not sacrifice -- it's life.

P.S. -- To be clear, I'm not holding up my service as some sort of paragon of sacrifice either. I'm illustrating it here as a choice, like any other, that I have made, and the consequences that come of it are mine to bear. I love what I do, and that's a reward, as is being able to provide for my family with a stable, secure paycheck. Some people call that life a sacrifice, but I'm not one of them, so please don't think I'm fishing for compliments, thanks or anything else.


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

In 1989, as the US Olympic Cycling Coach, I instituted an in-OTC group of young up-and-coming male and female adult cyclists (age 18-21). This was in response to a dismal showing in the Seoul Olympic Games. (1 Bronze medal out of possible 20) 16 athletes were give full medical, dental, housing, food, equipment, mechanical support, entry fees all competition travel and expenses...plus $800.00 per month. The biggest problem we had with the program was the prevailing complaint that they were "isolated" at the OTC, homesick, and that they did not "believe" that the high quantity of psychological and physiological training was necessary and made them too fatigued to race all the time....which is what they wanted to do. In the first year we had a 50% turnover rate for the athletes. However, in the second year, six athletes earned National Championships and four made the 1992 Olympic Team. The program was abandoned when I left as National Coaching Director.

As a side note, one female athlete, that held dual citizenship with France, did not make the final selection and made a big deal in the press that I said that her current level of conditioning was not what is needed to be, ass she was 5'6" and 149 pounds. Four years later, she was the World Champion at 108 pounds riding for France. She claimed that being "discriminated against" was her motivation to prove the US Cycling coaches wrong.

As a whole, I found that a full 50% of the high level athletes that I dealt with to be self-absorbed, indulged brats. The other 50% were some of the best athletes you could imagine and their characters were the same.

Mark Hodges
1988 Head US Olympic Cycling Coach


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Sorry I initiated a pity party with my post from Jay. Sacrifice is relative. So is work. It is not a zero sum game. Fortunately we live in a country where we are free to make those choices and sacrifices and can live with the consequences. Take a step back folks and be thankful we have the choices and opportunities. I doubt many of us has been forced to make the choices we have chosen. Some of those choices have been good and some not so good with the benefit of hindsight. But, nevertheless the only real option is to move forward making the best decisions we can at the moment. We all have our own stories of how we ended up where we are. Some are similar and many are different. But, we are where we are. Press on. Do the best you can. I recommend Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search From Meaning".



> “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not your fault Tom. I've been listening to these stories of "sacrifice" since the games began. In some cases, they seem very true, but in others, I know better, and the media is really making something out of nothing. I recall in 2004, SI did a story on Olympians with careers. Lets just say one Olympian I know, who put themselves through college and has a legitimate professional career, was mentioned in their article right alongside another Olympian who lived at home and dabbled in teaching an activity to kids part time. The two could not have been further from one another. 



> And as the article noted, the US is the only country that does not support its athletes, which is a crying shame. We (they) compete on behalf of the US, yet are not "employed" by the US.


From where I sit, the U.S. supports it's athletes pretty darn well. I can tell you that when I was 22 years old, I never had to work 4-6 hours/day, have my meals prepared for me, have my dishes done for me, have my apartment and bills paid for me, had airline tickets and stipends handed to me, and had sponsorship opportunities one after the next... No, maybe not the government per se, but in some ways it's worse because the revenue is generated by creating an image and selling it to sponsors. Oh wait, maybe that is like government...

Scott, when I look at situations like yours, it's YOU that has made the sacrifices. The media should be highlighting the sacrifices the parents are making to give their kids these opportunities. The kids are, or should be, just doing what they love to do - and thanks to God given talent, doing it better than most.

John


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## Old Newbie (Apr 14, 2011)

Um... Yay! Great response and thank you for the choice that you and my grandfather, father and two brothers made. That allows the rest of us Americans to make our choices as well.



m013690 said:


> Pardon me if I get this backward, but it was a little difficult to tell which side you were arguing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I have never heard one ELITE archer ever say they sacrificed anything to get where they are. If they do, there is a high possibility that they will not come close to achieving their goals. The top archers choose to go this direction. Now, a parent is a different issue. Many parents sacrifice for their children. 

I know that the NBC crew I was working with were a little confused when they used the word sacrifice when I was around because I told them that if they sacrificed, they will not win. You choose the path you go. Sacrifice is when you give up something you love, like archery, to help someone else achieve their goals.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Jeez, John, you're not supposed to say stuff like that in public! 

I'm still riding the remnants of the last wave of the "sacrifices" I made back in the '70s and '80s traveling the world shooting arrows, getting government funding to basically do nothing but sleep all morning, shoot all afternoon and drink beer all evening.

Seriously, though, I did pass up on some job offers in favor of shooting Pan Am Games and World Championships and national events and such. If I'd taken up on those offers I would probably be on my third marriage and second heart attack by now. No sacrifice here, no regrets.


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## Aggie07Shooter (Nov 24, 2008)

Sacrifice is indeed relative…

Though my only experience of OTC life was a couple of JOAD camps before KSL got there, I have a hard time seeing life there as a sacrifice, or even a hardship, or even an inconvenience. 

I do however see putting off college, or career advancement in favor of Olympic pursuits as a difficult choice to make. Anyone is certainly free to make that decision for his or herself, and for the Michael Phelps’ of the world it may make even more sense to pursue the Olympics over a more conventional career to reach their personal definition of success. 

Now if this personal definition of success is the motivation for choosing one path over another. I hope that all our young archers consider how their definition of success may change over the span of their life. I hope they recognize how choices made now will affect their ability to reach their definition of success that they may grow into later in life, and that these choices they make now are at most inconveniences and never turn into sacrifices.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great post Rick. I agree that in most cases, the greatest sacrifices are made by the parents. And sometimes, the media even gives them the credit... 

Aggie, I see putting off college for the Olympics as foolish, not as a sacrifice. A person can easily do both. Okay, maybe not "easily" but they certainly can do both.

Stash, I just can't help myself sometimes I guess.

John


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## Aggie07Shooter (Nov 24, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that putting off college for the Olympics is something to be admired for. I too think it's quite foolish for almost all archers with college potential, and even most archers without college potential. I just hope any college potential archer would think about what they are giving up later in life by perusing the Olympics over college. Maybe it's because I don't have an Olympic medal, but I think generally a college degree will lead to a more satisfactory life than one without. Maybe I'm wrong and a medal or Olympic experience trumps it...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

You can't make a generalization like that without some empirical evidence to back it up. Try sampling a selection of competitive archers who went to college and a selection who didn't, and see how they're all doing 5, 10, 20 years after ending their competitive archery careers. 

Thing is, you probably won't find a lot of top archers (at least in the western world), or amateur athletes of any kind for that matter, who have given up college for their sport. Those that have probably gave up college because they couldn't hack it period, not because they couldn't manage both the schooling and the sport.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Huntsmaster said:
"And as the article noted, the US is the only country that does not support its athletes, which is a crying shame. We (they) compete on behalf of the US, yet are not "employed" by the US. That means that all their efforts end up being a benifit for their counrty in the end. Doubt it? Look at the news - the US is currently in second place for medal standings. Who earned their first gold medal in men's archery? Korea, not the archer. Let's ask Microsoft if they ever designed software so that any other company could claim its success."

You mean at tax payers expense...if the gov pays for athletes to compete...then here in America it means tax payers are paying their way...In my book it isn't a crying shame that we don't. If they want to play at a sport, then they can get a job and pay for the pleasure, potential fame and glory, but not by me thanks. If their parents can foot the bill, great. I really don't want to sacrifice any portion of my kids financial future for someone elses kids future..thank you very much.

Greg Barton, a double gold winner in kayaks, worked at a Home Depot while he trained..like John says...most of these kids really think there is a free lunch out there...some know better. Yes they all work hard to make it to the Olympics, but it is a choice.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Dido John...good post Rick...it puts it in perspective.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Maybe I'm messed up, but I think that if someone truly has the talent, and the means to get to the Olympics, and has to choose between pursuing that, and College, then I say postpone College, and go to the Olympics...Youth and health fades, but nothing stopping that Athlete from going to College after they compete on the World stage...You can get a college degree when Your older and busted up physically...How can someone be a top class Archer, or practically any Sport, when they are not physically able to do so??...I know plenty of folks that have College degree's....I don't know any Olympians...I'd be unsatisfied walking around the rest of my life thinking that "I coulda been a Contender"...I know too many folks that didn't use the Gifts that they were given (both physical, and mental)....A bit of a sad life, to wallow in mediocrity, regretfully thinking about what might have been, to me personally.....Maybe I'm messed up in the head, though...But that's how I see it.....Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ArtV said:


> Huntsmaster said:
> "And as the article noted, the US is the only country that does not support its athletes, which is a crying shame. We (they) compete on behalf of the US, yet are not "employed" by the US. That means that all their efforts end up being a benifit for their counrty in the end. Doubt it? Look at the news - the US is currently in second place for medal standings. Who earned their first gold medal in men's archery? Korea, not the archer. Let's ask Microsoft if they ever designed software so that any other company could claim its success."
> 
> You mean at tax payers expense...if the gov pays for athletes to compete...then here in America it means tax payers are paying their way...In my book it isn't a crying shame that we don't. If they want to play at a sport, then they can get a job and pay for the pleasure, potential fame and glory, but not by me thanks. If their parents can foot the bill, great. I really don't want to sacrifice any portion of my kids financial future for someone elses kids future..thank you very much.
> ...


Art, I agree with You for the most part, but in another sense, but I consider this as well....Taxpayers pay out billions in other Government programs every year that are even more wasteful, and dont even know it...Government grant money to study things that we all ready know are facts, Social programs that dont help, never end, and are actually more harm than good, Politicians blowing taxpayer money on lavish lifestyles, etc..etc..Your a smart fellow, You know that words to that tune....Whats another couple million over 4 years or so, to fund such a good thing as World class sports??....Truth be told, the Tax moneys that are spent each year in quiet a few bigger cities in the USA to fund Pro football, basketball and baseball teams is astronomical, and most either think that is O.K., or dont know that it's happening....Example, the Cincinnati Bengals football team....Ask residents of the Cinci metro area who paid for the new stadium, and who pays the salaries for the Police/Security at the games....Just as an example....For the record, I detest Pro football, Basketball, and Baseball.................Take care.........Jim


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

In 1996 Michele was at his 5th year of High School and had to graduate in July. But in May he qualified to be in the Italian team for Atlanta, and tere was no way to get graduation AND Olympic games, as they were held at the same time. 
We were a family of archers, and have grown up Michele to be an archer and teached him to follow the Olympic dream. Because of many absences from school for international compettions with the Italian team, he had already lost one year of high school, so he he was going to graduate at 20 instead than 19. Abandoning school to go to Atlanta meant one more year of school, and to graduate at 21. As at that time only salary in my home was mine, and only sponsor of Michele was my own pocket, decision needed a family council ... that lasted 2 minutes only : he had to go to Atlanta Olympic Games. 
Did him sacrify anything? No, he did not. He was going to do what he was training for since at least 10 years already, and reaching his biggest dream at that time: to be an olympionic. 
Did we sacrify anything? As a family, we spent a lot of maney in archery to reach that objective, and from our point of view every penny was well spent for it. We invested two years of high school expenses for a family dream. A bet, more than an investment, that was already paying back in our hearth because of the qualification to Atlanta. Then, a medal came, and the story was with happy end ( and new beginning). 
When you pursue the Olympic dream, you just make choices. Results of your choices bring you to new choices, and so on. But your destiny is in your hands. Life is made of choices, and I know many families were decisions about the Olympic dream of their children have been quite different than those in the Frangilli family. Decisions and choices, not sacrifies.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

...for some talented folks, having to choose college(due to parental pressure) INSTEAD of preparing for the Olympics or the Asian Games in the example i'm thinking of----IS the sacrifice..


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## Aggie07Shooter (Nov 24, 2008)

Harperman said:


> Maybe I'm messed up, but I think that if someone truly has the talent, and the means to get to the Olympics, and has to choose between pursuing that, and College, then I say postpone College, and go to the Olympics...Youth and health fades, but nothing stopping that Athlete from going to College after they compete on the World stage...You can get a college degree when Your older and busted up physically...How can someone be a top class Archer, or practically any Sport, when they are not physically able to do so??...I know plenty of folks that have College degree's....I don't know any Olympians...I'd be unsatisfied walking around the rest of my life thinking that "I coulda been a Contender"...I know too many folks that didn't use the Gifts that they were given (both physical, and mental)....A bit of a sad life, to wallow in mediocrity, regretfully thinking about what might have been, to me personally.....Maybe I'm messed up in the head, though...But that's how I see it.....Jim


I agree that not applying your talents is a waste, and that if you can, then hell yeah... go do you best and go for it! But like John said, a person can "certainly do both". You don't have to delay or avoid college or even a career to make it to the Olympics, but it does help... and it's those very rare examples that kids might look to and then form a decision based on someone else’s rare success. 

Olympic pursuits are very noble and the hard work required to get there is to be commended. But the message should not be that you have to leave home, quit school, and go to the OTC to make it to the Olympics.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

John.....Sorry for my personal involvement in the de-railing of the subject matter of this thread...back to the O.P.'s topic.....I whole-hardheartedly agree, that most folks today dont know the real meaning of sacrifice...Good thread, John............Jim


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

I'd love to be able to compete competitively and travel the world in hopes in compete in the Olympics like every other archer, but sadly I feel like I'll never have that opportunity due to money and no time to travel. =/


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## Medichunter (Oct 21, 2006)

I agree that some sacrifices have been made, as to what level... who knows. I want to compete at that level as well, and money is a major factor. I do think the media creates a level of hype depending on who is leading or improving to that top mark.


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## ppayne (Jul 13, 2007)

What is considered "sacrifice" though...To wit: I drove my girl 5 mornings a week when she was a competitive swimmer...Was I sacrificing for her? Hardly, this was a opportunity to better my own child's ambition and dreams. Now to have done same for a stranger's child or to have driven my daughter to such practices after working two full time jobs and night shifts to pay for her coach's fees would have been sacrifice. Now that she is away at University, she still wakes up at 5 am and walk 1/2 hour to her lifeguard job. Is this sacrifice? I'd say yes because I am her mom, to her though this is opportunity to work with friends and make good money. When life choices create inconvenience, they are just that, life choices. In the other hand, when one faces major financial and mental hardship in order to either better oneself or especially the life of others, then yes sacrifices would be the correct description imo. Media may wish to turn personal ambitions into heroic endeavours through the use of swelling music, flattering camera angles and oh-so-inspiring words but when all is said and done at the end of the day, athletic endeavours are the manifestation of personal ambition and vision. Unless you competed in China in the 90s ( or so I was told by one of my chinese friends). 

note: to illustrate the point further...letting go of an expensive and very sought-after previous bow was just a choice and an inconvenience to myself but if I evah had to sell my beloved Ultra Agulla, the sacrifice would kill me, man, just kill me  !


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## Medichunter (Oct 21, 2006)

Thats just it though, what one person views as a sacrifice, another will not.


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

My take:

Times have changed (no big revelation there) - and the general work ethic has changed too. Now it's "work smarter, not harder" - which is a good thing, but not where the development of skill is concerned. That's the computer age talking, since the computer is the first ever machine for the mind. (Every one before that has been for the body, so "smarter" never came into it, apart from actually being smarter, from birth).

However, when skill and discipline are involved, it becomes a matter of hours spent and quality arrows sent downrange.

This requires one thing - priority.

A lot of people these days spend their time with their priorities diffused. It's now considered unhealthy to focus on one thing to the detriment of others. It's too fanatical, or words to that effect.

And archery is nothing if not focus.

So, if you're spending your time focusing on one thing, and not doing something else, why is that sacrifice?

Because giving up watching TV or playing softball is a sacrifice? 

Being not-normal is a sacrifice?

Causing the people around you to miss their couch potato time is their sacrifice? 

What? Do these people really think that normal regular brown cow people can up and get Olympic Gold Medals? What, in between commercial breaks?
Do they really believe that this is the way it's done?

I can remember the publicity hype for a pop band's album wherein they said that they recorded the whole album in a single session of inspiration, on one single mastering tape.

And then I remember, a few weeks later, in a trade magazine for music producers, the engineer at that session saying "oh, sure, that's right. The band did in fact record the entire session on one single mastering tape. But what they didn't mention, and what I can show you if you'd like, is the shelves full of the other mastering tapes they also recorded to prior to that one, that they didn't use".


Sheesh. Don't ask me what I really think.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio summed it up well...

........"Decisions, and choices....NOT sacrificies..."

PS:..like many things in life...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> ...for some talented folks, having to choose college(due to parental pressure) INSTEAD of preparing for the Olympics or the Asian Games in the example i'm thinking of----IS the sacrifice..


Or choosing your family and career over training full time for the Olympics.

Some opportunities are great, certainly. Some responsibilities are greater.

John


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## Medichunter (Oct 21, 2006)

Well said!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Here's what sacrifice looks like:









This soldier is about to be deployed and is saying goodbye to his newborn daughter.

In other words, he's not getting read to go "train" and I'm sure the Olympics are the furthest thing from his mind.

The media needs to get some perspective, I think. 

John


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## larrysmachine (Dec 29, 2008)

Very very true

Larry


limbwalker said:


> Here's what sacrifice looks like:
> 
> View attachment 1433894
> 
> ...


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I guess sacrifice is a relative term in our society now. I always thought of sacrifice as doing something that you didnt want to do. I was under the impression that those that chose this path wanted to play on the world stage. Gar


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Just to claify I meant the olympics. The photo of the soldier is a true sacrifice, he doesnt want to leave his little girl but does for duty. right on with this John.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Ok, so I guess we've determined that there is only ONE kind of sacrifice. I guess I've not sacrificed a single thing in my life then


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott, who ever said this was about you? 

To me, its about the media "not getting it" once again, and by virtue of them not getting it, creating a society of young people (and a few older folks) that truly believe they are making some grand sacrifice every single time they do something that's the least bit difficult. 

People make hard choices and do difficult things every single day. And guess what, they don't have NEAR the talent or support that many Olympians have and receive and would trade places with them in a second. 

Nobody is questioning that you've made sacrifices for your daughter, the same way any good parent does for their children. 

My only point was that it seems that the popular image of Olympians that the media (and sponsors) count on is one of unending sacrifice. Call me John Stossel on that one. Hard work? sure. Sacrifice? negative. People confuse the two far too easily in my mind.

When a billion or so people would gladly switch places to have the opportunity most Olympians have, that's not sacrifice. Parents and families sacrifice. My wife and kids basically lived without their dad for months and even when I was home I was usually shooting instead of doing things with them. My wife took care of bills, dinner, laundry - the kids mowed the lawn, cleaned house, etc. all so I could have time to shoot. But for me it was far from sacrifice. In fact, it was pretty self-indulgent of me, and anyone who has a family will understand what I mean by that. Surely there are athletes that have made sacrifices to train. Khatuna comes to mind, leaving her family behind to train full time. That would be tough, but it's also a choice presented by opportunity, which is available through God-given talent.

That's all I'm saying.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

This is really the central point, and it applies to far more than just this. People get offended far too easily. Someone, somewhere applied the word "sacrifice." For whatever reason, it sounded good. But it's incorrect. The thing is, saying that it's incorrect is not in any way an insult to the Olympians we're referring to. But people nowadays are too sensitive as well. Stop being offended by meaningless things. Being told that something you do is not a sacrifice isn't an insult, it's just an observation of a proper definition.

John said it.



limbwalker said:


> Hard work? sure. Sacrifice? negative. People confuse the two far too easily in my mind.


And I don't think anyone here would demean the IMMENSE amount of hard work that's involved. And Huntmaster, as a PARENT, I think we've already agreed that YOU did/do sacrifice. But I would hope none of the Olympians themselves are offended by being told that their hard work is not a sacrifice. Their HARD WORK is admirable, impressive, enviable, and deserves to be well-regarded and highly commended. No one is disputing that. And to deny that it is a sacrifice doesn't change that in any way. We can admire them for making the difficult choice to pursue their sports over an education. We can also admire them for choosing the extremely difficult path to pursue their sports WHILE pursuing an education. I think all of these guys are AMAZING, and I have the highest respect for the self-discipline and dedication they display. But calling it hard work and a choice rather than a sacrifice is not an insult, and it does not in any way imply disrespect.

People need to stop seeing insults where they don't exist. It's purely a matter of language and usage, sometimes with a little bit of sentimentalism thrown in. Society keeps inflating things to make everyone feel special. We've seen it with grades, kids making teams, getting trophies for just showing up... so the word "sacrifice" is just the latest thing. It's a word rather than a medal or a trophy, but the idea is exactly the same -- it's been overinflated and applied where it doesn't apply. Eventually, at this rate, we'll be talking about the "sacrifices" our kids have to make every grueling day to get out of bed by 9am just to go to grade school and learn all those horrible math tables and read all those horrible books, and learn all that terrible history... oh, wait... that's not sacrifice? Of course not. But keep distorting the words, and soon enough nothing will mean anything anymore, just like if everyone gets a medal for showing up, they don't mean anything except that you took the time to drive there, and if every kid gets an "A", there's no longer any value to the grading system.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

No, it's not about me. It's about the meaning of sacrifice. You guys have already defined sacrifice, which only seems to include actions threatening to your life, wheter by choice or by misfortune. Therefore, in my nearly 50 years of life, I've not sacrificed a single thing either....I've made tough choices which seems to be different. It's so cut and dry now!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But I would hope none of the Olympians themselves are offended by being told that their hard work is not a sacrifice. Their HARD WORK is admirable, impressive, enviable, and deserves to be well-regarded and highly commended. No one is disputing that. And to deny that it is a sacrifice doesn't change that in any way.


Agreed. I think Rick said it best. Any athlete that sees their training as "sacrifice" will never be a champion. It should be seen as an opportunity, and a gift. I believe most top athletes do believe this - that it's a gift to be treasured. It's the dang media that doesn't get it. They're too busy spinning a story about sacrifice, and what I'm afraid of is the damage it's doing to our aspiring Olympic athletes. They all the sudden think they are sacrificing something and should be pitied and praised when in fact they should be going to bed every night counting their blessings and giving thanks for the opportunity they have that so many will never get to even consider.



> We can admire them for making the difficult choice to pursue their sports over an education.


Sorry, but I'll go on record as not admiring that choice at all. I think it's foolish and lazy. Want proof? 10,000 NCAA athletes can't be wrong. If it were up to me, every Olympic Training Center would be a college campus where the athletes were required to be enrolled in a degree plan. Get up early, go to work (train) and then take classes in the afternoon and study in the evening. Just like so many of us did when we were in our late teens and 20's. Except our instead of getting a stipend, room and board and free tuition for working, we got minimum wage. NCAA scholarship athletes do all these things. They travel, they train, they compete at the highest levels in sport. Why can't athletes at the OTC's? I just don't get that.

You know what, I just thought of something else (and this may really torque off some folks, but so what) - Why can't the USOC and USArchery, instead of hemmoraging cash at the OTC's, just fund NCAA scholarship archers at enough major universities that we could have our Olympic hopefuls training while they attend college? Works for virtually every other sport. Worked pretty well for Vic, I'd say.

Oh, but might just be too much sacrifice...

John


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

> sac·ri·fice (skr-fs)
> n.
> 1.
> a. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
> ...


Hmmm. I'm going to go with definition #2.

Pretty much it isn't a "sacrifice" unless you've given up something _*for someone else*_. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a lifestyle choice.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Therefore, in my nearly 50 years of life, I've not sacrificed a single thing either....I've made tough choices which seems to be different. It's so cut and dry now!


Scott, are you not paying attention here? I think we all agree YOU've made sacrifices for your child. Like I said, what good parent hasn't? I can think of thousands of parents of young athletes who have sacrificed PLENTY to give their child the opportunity to compete in sport. YOU ARE IN THAT GROUP. So relax. We're not talking about you.

John


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

m013690 said:


> But I would hope none of the Olympians themselves are offended by being told that their hard work is not a sacrifice. QUOTE]
> 
> And I would argue that none of them DO think their hard work is sacrifice........it's everything else they give up in life to afford the time that hard work TAKES that is the sacrifice.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to really understand anyway. I'm so closly knitted with one of these people that I know exactly what she's sacrificing to do what she does and how it's affected her life.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Scott, are you not paying attention here? I think we all agree YOU've made sacrifices for your child. Like I said, what good parent hasn't? I can think of thousands of parents of young athletes who have sacrificed PLENTY to give their child the opportunity to compete in sport. YOU ARE IN THAT GROUP. So relax. We're not talking about you.
> 
> John


John, I've done my parental duties of making sure my daughter is protected and is given the chance to excell in any direction she sees fit. That includes chasing an Olympic dream, getting the best education possible, and even sitting on the couch cleaning the shotgun on that ever important first date. I OWE it to her to do these things. She certainly doesn't owe it to anyone to compete.


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## Z-MAN (Jan 25, 2004)

Sacrifice is when you give up something you love, like archery, to help someone else achieve their goals.[/QUOTE]


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## Z-MAN (Jan 25, 2004)

Well put John and Rick. Spend time with a Para-Olympic Athlete's family will give you a different perspective of the word sacrific.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and even sitting on the couch cleaning the shotgun on that ever important first date


ROFLMAO. Roger that...


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Choices versus Sacrifices....

My opinion...a sacrifice is a choice one makes between two mutually exclusive options, in which the passed option is never available to the person again....

The rest are just hard choices to make involving a lot of scheduling....

I am positive that anyone who has been successful at anything has had to do both....


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## Aggie07Shooter (Nov 24, 2008)

I agree completely John. Pursuing sport over education is not an admirable endeavor. It should not be commended of and made as a paradigm for Olympic training. If someone chooses this path, then best of luck to them, but that specific choice should not be commended, especially given that Olympic archers are role models for young archers. The hard work is the commendable act, not the foregoing of education for the sake of sport.

Sorry if some may see my posts as drifting off subject, but I see this specific issue as being very important and ties into the miss-use of the word “sacrifice”.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Huntmaster said:


> ...it's everything else they give up in life to afford the time that hard work TAKES that is the sacrifice.


But that's what it costs.

Look, if I want a new car, I am not "sacrificing" my cash to get it. I am paying the cost.

But if my son needs a kidney transplant, I will *sacrifice* one of my own for his sake.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Time is a "sunk cost"....you have to spend it because you can't save it....

But you can pack a lot into your allotted amount of time....

In my most humblest opinion, time is not sacrificed....it is just used one way or another....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Should we start a Philosophy sub forum?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I was at a seminar for promoting the Olympics years ago and one Gold Medalist was talking to the group and her comments were spectacular. She said, that she trained hard and there were days she hated the training, but when she won, and she stood on that podium, she thought back to the times she felt she didn’t train as hard as she could and if she could, she would have trained even harder since now she knows what it feels like for the sense of accomplishment standing on that podium. I can honestly say, there is nothing like standing on that podium. Whether it be gold, silver or bronze, there is no other feeling of accomplishment than becoming a medal winner. There is no sacrifice, only true dedication.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

> sac·ri·fice
> [sak-ruh-fahys] Show IPA noun, verb, sac·ri·ficed, sac·ri·fic·ing.
> 
> noun
> ...





Stash said:


> Hmmm. I'm going to go with definition #2.
> 
> Pretty much it isn't a "sacrifice" unless you've given up something _*for someone else*_. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a lifestyle choice.


Stash, we're definately not talking about #1 or 2 according to dictionary.com, but what about #3, #4, and #5?
My #3 is the SAME as your #2, and there is nothing here about someone else. The definition says one thing given up IN ORDER TO OBTAIN the other.....aka a cost. Sorta like giving up education and life to train for a non material ideal? 

#4 is the thing so surrendered or devoted....how about possessions or postponment of carreer (the normal education and carreer cycle is definately given up)?

#5 is a loss incurred in selling something below it's value.......I've gotta tell you, this gig certainly a net loss, as you've all agreed that compounders sacrifice more due to less funding, and even a gold medal from the Olympics isn't worth $160,000 or more (roughly 4 years salary for an eduated proffessional at the start of their carreer given up to train).


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I was at a seminar for promoting the Olympics years ago and one Gold Medalist was talking to the group and her comments were spectacular. She said, that she trained hard and there were days she hated the training, but when she won, and she stood on that podium, she thought back to the times she felt she didn’t train as hard as she could and if she could, she would have trained even harder since now she knows what it feels like for the sense of accomplishment standing on that podium. I can honestly say, there is nothing like standing on that podium. Whether it be gold, silver or bronze, there is no other feeling of accomplishment than becoming a medal winner. There is no sacrifice, only true dedication.


Rick, I agree completely. It is an accomplishment, and they don't really see it as sacrifice....I don't think that changes the fact that they do make sacrifice in a number of areas. Sacrifice is all about the choices we make. Our military men and women chose to serve instead of remaining home. They don't see it as sacrifice either, but we most certainly do.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Should we start a Philosophy sub forum?


Oh Lord, please no...

Sorry if I started one. ha, ha.

Guess it just started to burn me that so many in the media just love to go on and on about what "great sacrifices" the Olympians make. Meanwhile, they are out there playing their sport, smiling along with their friends. It just seems so ironic. Then they pan the stands and you see the parents all strung-out, tired, broke and stressing over every movement, probably (like Lochte's parents) wondering how on earth they are going to pay for their kid's recreational pursuits.

I don't like it when they gush about sacrifices because it makes it sound like it's impossible to be an Olympic athlete and do absolutely anything else - which is bunk. You can't train 100% of the time. Heck, it's not even healthy or productive to train more than 5 or 6 hours/day anyway. So that leaves you a LOT of time to take care of other responsibilities like school, work, family, etc.

Like I said, just apply the NCAA model. Because a LOT of our Olympians reached their world-class performance standards under that model.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> Sacrifice is all about the choices we make. Our military men and women chose to serve instead of remaining home. They don't see it as sacrifice either, but we most certainly do.


I don't see military service as a "sacrifice". They have made a choice to serve our country, with it's inherent risks and benefits....every one certainly knows what they are getting into when they sign up....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Oh Lord, please no...
> 
> Sorry if I started one. ha, ha.
> 
> ...


I have had more parents ask me about college scholarships for archery in the last few weeks....sadly, I tell them there is nothing but a few stipends available....


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I'm still going to go with it being something given up for someone else's benefit. Giving up an archery career in favor of working to care for your family - that's a personal sacrifice. You give up the potential for _*your own*_ business career for something you value more - not a sacrifice. A choice.

As for an Olympic Gold not being worth $160,000 - well, ask someone who's won one what they think it was worth to them. The "value" of something is what it's worth _*to you*_, not to someone else.

Anyways, the whole thing doesn't matter - "sacrifice" is a word used in this context by the media to impress the regular folk with our athlete "heroes".

Heroes - there's another word that's probably inappropriately used when we talk about sports.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I don't see military service as a "sacrifice". They have made a choice to serve our country, with it's inherent risks and benefits....every one certainly knows what they are getting into when they sign up....


Whoa. Interesting.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> every one certainly knows what they are getting into when they sign up....


We shall see. My son signed up for the Air Force ROTC at A&M and will be heading into the corps of cadets in 8 days... I still don't think he knows what he's agreed to.

As for the military, what about our domestic police force? The forgotten ones who are the difference between our great nation and most 3rd world countries. As someone who has had to draw a weapon on another human and put my life at risk more than once, I can tell you that even in those moments, *I was still doing what I wanted to do*, and it didn't feel like a sacrifice to me. I felt privleged to be healthy and bright enough to take on that role. My family however, they were constantly at risk of losing their father or husband. 

It's the families that make sacrifices when the individuals make these choices in most cases. Ask my wife and she would probably tell you that while she supported my choice to become an officer, she would GLADLY watched me turn in my badge. And the individuals usually are the ones who get the credit. Such is our society today. The media usually gets it completely wrong.

There is nothing I love more than an interview where a member of the media seems surprised that the athlete in front of them is just thankful and has a puzzled look on their face when they are asked about all the "sacrifices" they made to get there. I have seen this several times in these games. It's great. The athlete is just staring at the interviewer with a look like, "you really don't get it, do you?" and trying to come up with a tactful way to say how it's a privlege, not a sacrifice, to do what they do.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Stash said:


> Whoa. Interesting.


Hopefully not controversial....I fully support anyone making the choice to server others in any capacity....

We have a volunteer military force...no one has to do this if they don't want to...

Now in making this choice, you could be severely injured, killed, maimed for life. Same for a firefighter, police officer, EMT, airline pilot, bus driver and a lot of other things. 

Thankfully, our military has benefits available like health care, education, job preferences available. They certainly DO NOT make up for the risk, but they are there. When signing up for any of these, which is a choice, each person is WELL AWARE of the risks and benefits...

Now to spin this around, I would fully support a mandatory military service in this country....and a college education after it....


And re-reading, let me add some more to this....this is not meant to minimize the great efforts of our military, police, fire fighters, first responders and all who serve the citizens of this country. It is a brave thing they are called for and there are not enough benefits to make up for the risk at all. In a better world, I would hope these would become the vocations of choice! But like our Olympic archers, I don't believe they see it as a sacrifice, just as what they were meant to do in life....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> We shall see. My son signed up for the Air Force ROTC at A&M and will be heading into the corps of cadets in 8 days... I still don't think he knows what he's agreed to.
> 
> As for the military, what about our domestic police force? The forgotten ones who are the difference between our great nation and most 3rd world countries. As someone who has had to draw a weapon on another human and put my life at risk more than once, I can tell you that even in those moments, *I was still doing what I wanted to do*, and it didn't feel like a sacrifice to me. I felt privleged to be healthy and bright enough to take on that role. My family however, they were constantly at risk of losing their father or husband.
> 
> ...



My son wants to be a Marine when he grows up.....I couldn't be prouder!


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## Aggie07Shooter (Nov 24, 2008)

> My son signed up for the Air Force ROTC at A&M and will be heading into the corps of cadets in 8 days... I still don't think he knows what he's agreed to.


Nope, He has no idea, lol. I wasn't in the Corps, but had lots of friends that were... and lots of friends that dropped out of it too. It will be one of the hardest things to stick to, but will certainly be a character builder unlike any other. Best of luck to him, though I'm sure he'll do fine. Gig'Em!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Aggie07Shooter said:


> Nope, He has no idea, lol. I wasn't in the Corps, but had lots of friends that were... and lots of friends that dropped out of it too. It will be one of the hardest things to stick to, but will certainly be a character builder unlike any other. Best of luck to him, though I'm sure he'll do fine. Gig'Em!


Oh, and it's not just the corp and Air Force ROTC. Oh no, that's not enough. He's enrolled in Aerospace Engineering, AND will be in the fightin' aggie marching band too. As if he didn't already have enough on his plate. 

I fully expect to get a phone call from a stressed out, exhausted, homesick young man in about 5 weeks.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My apologies to those who've watched my Monday-morning rant go on for 3 pages now... <sigh>


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Huntmaster said:


> My #3 is the SAME as your #2, and there is nothing here about someone else. The definition says one thing given up IN ORDER TO OBTAIN the other.....aka a cost.


You should re-read that definition #3 that you posted. It does NOT say giving something up in order to obtain something else. It says giving something "for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim." The key word there is claim, and it does not have the meaning that you ascribed to it. "Claim" implies that the other thing is an obligation, something owed. That means the other thing is something the person making the sacrifice has little or no control over. Such as sacrificing your new car for the sake of your child's education, because you feel an obligation to your child to provide that. It's irrelevant whether or not you do, it matters only that you consider it as being a higher claim on your resources.

In many things, and especially in this conversation about the meaning of a word, it's important to understand that words have meanings. Particularly if you pull out a dictionary definition. Words have meanings, and they cannot be simply twisted to suit the argument you wish to make.

So, if the Olympian feels he/she has an obligation to his/her country to compete for Olympic Gold, because he/she has been given a gift or talent, and is altruistically pursuing his/her sport for the sake of the greater good (i.e. national glory), at the expense of other things he/she holds dear and more valuable, then it is a sacrifice by this definition. If he/she pursues Olympic glory for the sake of personal ambition -- because he/she set a goal -- that is not an external claim on his/her skills, time or resources, but rather a personally imposed pusuit - also known as a choice. Noble, admirable or otherwise as it may be, it is still a choice, and the costs along the way are simply that -- the costs of pursuing personal ambition.


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## RPoster (Jul 28, 2012)

When I think of sacrifice I think of the long hours in the factory that my dad put in so that my family could have nice things. I'm not gonna hate on athletes for the work they put in (it's a lot), but absolutely no praise or respect is given to the millions of Americans that keep this country running by going to work day in and day out for 30-40 years.

The best part is... none of them are asking to be recognized either.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wurd 

Interestingly enough, the little 'ol bitty SE Texas town where I live has two former Olympic athletes, a former professional baseball player (who hit a home run in the world series) and three former NFL players, including one pro-bowler. 

A time or two, I've had the chance to raise a glass with several of these gents after a round of golf. 

The former NFL'ers, and one in particular, are millionaires. One has a superbowl ring. The former baseball player was interviewed just last year by Bob Costas, recounting his historic home run in the world series (One batter before the now-famous Mazeroski homer). He played so long ago that he made next to nothing and barely made enough to raise his kids and still play ball. 

One day, one of the millionaire football players thought he'd grouse about the "sacrifices" he'd made in his 7 year career. 

Big mistake.

Because he did it in front of the 80 year old baseball player... 

It was fun to watch.

John


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> One day, one of the millionaire football players thought he'd grouse about the "sacrifices" he'd made in his 7 year career.
> 
> Big mistake.
> 
> ...


Oh, to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation! :darkbeer:


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> My apologies to those who've watched my Monday-morning rant go on for 3 pages now... <sigh>


Yes, well I sacrificed a lot to take the time to read and reply on this thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You should get a medal, Stash.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And again. "Olympic sized" sacrifices...

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/story/golden-dream-financial-nightmare-for-most-olympians-080712

Rick, shield your eyes man...


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## dramnara (Aug 26, 2008)

What a great discussion.

Now, where does that leave us? What are we going to do now?

I hate open ended discussions with so much substance and no clear action items. John, take the lead here and summarize the way forward please.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Wouldn't it be awesome if we could get just a few NBA players to chip in and just fund almost every other sport? I'm sure they could make a donation to a non-profit that would be a tax write-off for them and the situation would be resolved....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> And again. "Olympic sized" sacrifices...
> 
> http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/story/golden-dream-financial-nightmare-for-most-olympians-080712
> 
> Rick, shield your eyes man...


a real sacrifice involved a guy I knew-a guy I was on a team with, who took out a second mortgage on his home, finally won a slot on the 1980 Olympic team after finishing just off the team in 76 only to have Jimmy Carter pull the rug out under him and when he tried to compete (as His Lordship Seb Coe and other UK athletes did under the IOC flag in Moscow) was threatened with all sorts of government nastiness.

He was forced to sacrifice his olympic dream by a politician who used our olympians for political ends


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

_"Why can't the USOC and USArchery, instead of hemmoraging cash at the OTC's, just fund NCAA scholarship archers at enough major universities that we could have our Olympic hopefuls training while they attend college?"_

Wouldn't the USArchery bigs be ceding power/control to the NCAA? If so, there's your answer of 'why not?'


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Jim C said:


> a real sacrifice involved a guy I knew-a guy I was on a team with, who took out a second mortgage on his home, finally won a slot on the 1980 Olympic team after finishing just off the team in 76 only to have Jimmy Carter pull the rug out under him and when he tried to compete (as His Lordship Seb Coe and other UK athletes did under the IOC flag in Moscow) was threatened with all sorts of government nastiness.
> 
> He was forced to sacrifice his olympic dream by a politician who used our olympians for political ends



....i think this is more a case of bad luck rather than anything else...

he CHOSE to do what he did with the objective of participating in the Olympics....the fact that he didn't--or couldn't--is as much a combination of bad timing as it is bad luck..

but then...many US athletes were in the same boat at the time..including the archery team!!

JMHO..


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Tell me about it.....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dramnara said:


> What a great discussion.
> 
> Now, where does that leave us? What are we going to do now?
> 
> I hate open ended discussions with so much substance and no clear action items. John, take the lead here and summarize the way forward please.


Just a rant Daryl. No action items. Never hurts to blow off some steam sometimes...  I feel better anyway. ha, ha, ha.

Unless you can fix our insanley stupid media, it will only get worse. Granted it's not all their fault. In many ways, they are being used to promote an image so that sponsors and donors will continue to shell out cash. Not much different than the media telling sob stories and being used to promote various government subsidy programs. Whether it's welfare, or "family" farms or thousands of other "worthy causes." 

In a lot of cases, I think they (the reporters) mean well, but just don't really have all the facts or are only listening to one side of the story. They also get caught up in the excitement of the Olympics and want to contribute to the sensationalization of the reporting. I mean, without a ridiculous story right now, who's getting airtime? 

There are certain bandwagons that we're all expected to be on, all the time. Olympians are one. The military is another. But not all Olympians or military vets are created equal. However, we're supposed to show them all the same amount of reverence. Well, some deserve it while others simply don't. 

John


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't know how different it is in the US compared to here in Australia, but I don't particularly agree. Granted, there's a few professional teams earning a nice living (and tennis players, for example), but many of the "professional" or "full time" athletes we send don't get a lot of financial benefit- basically they get enough to live on, and trained. While doing the sport you love and getting a living to do it seems like a pretty fair deal, keep in mind many of these people have other ambitions in life. Unless they win gold and from that lead onto a succesful sporting career (very unlikely), I'd say they've made a big sacrifice.

Years of training, go to the olympics, don't perform at your peak, win silver, and you get berated here. Come back home, and you don't have even a handful of savings, sponsorship or anything- with the reception you get here now for anything less than gold it must almost feel like a waste.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

..doing what you chose to do and not doing as well as you hoped is not a sacrifice...


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is an interesting one for you guys - 3 friends of mine are packing their gear to travel to France to represent the US on the USA Archery Field team (barebow) - Ben Rodgers (General Contractor), Allan Eagleton (Electrical Contractor), and Ty Pelfry (school Teacher) - They payed their own way to Spokane to qualify, they bought their own uniforms from USA archery, and will pay their own way to France to compete - they do it for the love of archery. 

I am working to make the team in 2014 and will happily pay my own way as this is the closest I can realistically get to something like the Olympics but, I think it is absolutely criminal that these guys had to buy their uniforms from USA archery (I also wonder where the uniforms were made) and then have to pay their way to the shoot once they made the team.

Matt


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

jmvargas said:


> ..doing what you chose to do and not doing as well as you hoped is not a sacrifice...


Glad we have an olympian here to tell us exactly how it is.

Does anyone honestly not think that part of it for every athlete is going there to represent and do their country proud? Going there to represent your nation and being slagged for only being the second best in the world isn't exactly fair.

For reference, I'm working a gap year to pay my way through uni and I'm 20k a year better off than most of our "professional athletes" here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Going there to represent your nation and being slagged for only being the second best in the world isn't exactly fair.


Or fourth. And no, it's not fair. Criticizing a team member for their placement at the games is absolutely not fair. And IMO, the mark of a cowardly soul who has never been in the arena in the first place. You will NEVER see someone who has been there, criticize another for their performance. Because they knew what it took to get there, and they knew how easily it could have been them.

Back on topic - my personal opinion is that it's foolish to ONLY train full time for the Olympics - especially in a sport where there is zero chance for a return on that investment (like archery). That is why I think every single Olympic hopeful should be working toward a degree or just working period. I'll say this until I'm blue in the face - if NCAA athletes can still be world class athletes, I don't see what the problem is. Aside from college, there are plenty of examples of Olympic athletes that have REAL jobs and REAL careers as well. It is not an impossible thing to do to ensure you have a life outside of training, and a backup plan. For Pete's sake, even if you win Gold in Olympic archery, you'd darn well better have a backup plan. Just ask Rod White, Butch Johnson or Vic Wunderle, or better yet - Darrell Pace about that. 

John


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Huntmaster said:


> And as the article noted, the US is the only country that does not support its athletes, which is a crying shame. We (they) compete on behalf of the US, yet are not "employed" by the US. That means that all their efforts end up being a benifit for their counrty in the end. Doubt it? Look at the news - the US is currently in second place for medal standings. Who earned their first gold medal in men's archery? Korea, not the archer. Let's ask Microsoft if they ever designed software so that any other company could claim its success.


This is an interesting video taken asking people who will win London. It was pretty much either Brady or Korea haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm-ncrYWDsM


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

Matt,,,,Good luck to your friends,and I agree,,,they shouldn't have to pay for their uniforms....


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Just to set the record straight. The field team do not have to pay for their uniforms. I verified this from two different sources within the USAA.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Rick - I apologize if I gave the wrong information - I was under the impression that they did as it was a self funded endeavor - thanks for correcting me.

My point was and still is that it would be nice to see these guys get more support from USA Archery.

Matt


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting article here...

Claiming bakruptcy after spending all your money on your kid's run to the Olympics? Seriously? I guess if I were the banker, I'd just say "you made the choices that got you here..."

How many families have Olympic-caliber athletes who will never go to the games because they invest in their child's education instead?

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/s...bby-douglas-ryan-lochte-missy-franklin-080912


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Rick - I apologize if I gave the wrong information - I was under the impression that they did as it was a self funded endeavor - thanks for correcting me.
> 
> My point was and still is that it would be nice to see these guys get more support from USA Archery.
> 
> Matt


Matt, No problem. The USAA has always struggled funding team travel. Originally there were only two World Championship events with just a recurve division. Each World Championship was held every other year so the USAA only had to fund a team of 8 to 12 archers per year for international travel. The funding was basic. The USAA received about 80% from the USOC. FITA decided to include a World Indoor Championship and a Jr. World Championship. This doubled the USAA costs for international funding with no increase by the USOC for support. When FITA included the compound bow, this doubled the cost of funding teams for the USAA again! Team funded travel went from 10 archers per year to approximately 33 archers per year and this does not include team leaders, coaches or managers nor does it include the World Cup events or any other international event! It was very obvious that the USAA could not afford to fund all events and all teams, thus the hard decision was made to fund USOC money for what it was intended for. The funds were given to the USAA to develop Olympic athletes, thus all compound international program funding was stopped. It was still an insurmountable cost for just the recurve, thus the USAA dropped all of Field archery programs and I do believe they dropped the World Indoor but I am not absolutely sure on that one. With the help of the USOC and Easton Foundation support, the USAA has been able to operate on a very limited budget. I am still hoping that Denise will go out there and land a large corporation as a major sponsor, such as Visa or American Express. It has to be someone so big that a couple of million dollars a year will not affect their bottom line but improve their corporate image. Having to depend on the USOC and Easton Foundation is costly to the USAA since there are so many strings attached to the funding. You don’t get their money without paying the piper, so to speak. 

The USAA has come a long ways from a few years ago. They were spiraling out of control. The costs were increasing and the income was shrinking. With the forcing of the new Board structure by the USOC and the hiring of a new CEO, this organization has been slowly turning around to more positive steps toward solvency and better organization. I am very excited to see how the US team did this year at the Games and I believe we are seeing the beginnings of a growth spurt due to archery’s popularity. This just may be the opportunity we have been waiting for when it comes to a major corporate sponsor. Let’s hope.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I am still hoping that Denise will go out there and land a large corporation as a major sponsor, such as Visa or American Express. It has to be someone so big that a couple of million dollars a year will not affect their bottom line but improve their corporate image. Having to depend on the USOC and Easton Foundation is costly to the USAA since there are so many strings attached to the funding. You don’t get their money without paying the piper, so to speak.


Roger that.

Now would be a great time to go after a major archery sponsor to support our teams, and our grassroots programs.

John


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I guess if I were the banker, I'd just say "you made the choices that got you here..."


Not to be flip to those people who truly do have genuine runs of really bad luck, but that sort of statement probably applies to a LOT of people who declare bankruptcy or walk away from a mortgage and just accept the foreclosure.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Certainly it does. But when are we going to start expecting people to be responsible for their own actions in this country? 

If someone wants to mortgage their future on their child's athletic achievements, then that's their business. Just don't whine about it and ask for "help" later. Or talk about what great "sacrifices" they've made. It's not a "sacrifice" to spend all your money gambling on your child's success. It's a choice, and IMO, a rather foolish one too. When NCAA athletes can get an education and compete at a world class level at the same time, I just don't get some of the ridiculous stories I hear coming from the games. 

I couldn't have been more proud of the story I heard about Samyr Laine - the triple jumper who is famous for being, well, an Olympic triple jumper, but also the former HARVARD roommate of Mark Zuckerberg (facebook guy, for us "old" folks...  )

On Samyr's website, he writes:





> *After finishing my graduate program *and taking into account my experience in Brazil, *dropping the triple jump to focus entirely on law school was not an option. As difficult as I had heard law school was, I was confident that I could continue the juggling act I’d been managing since my high school days *. It has certainly been extremely demanding to simultaneously tackle law school, the world of corporate law firms and the triple jump, but I have at the very least continued to grow and develop as a person, a scholar, an aspiring attorney and an athlete. Those two things, growth and development, are all that I can ask for in athletics and otherwise. Thankfully, the fabulous people in my life keep me striving for more. They prevent my desire to climb mountains from dissipating and make those mountains seem half as tall.
> 
> See you at the top.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> But when are we going to start expecting people to be responsible for their own actions in this country?


I'd love to know the answer to that one. Sadly, I expect it'll only get worse. Perhaps someday something will happen to turn the rend around, but I can't imagine what...


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Rick

Thanks a ton for the explanation I was unaware of the politics and or funding situation.

Matt


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Rick
> 
> Thanks a ton for the explanation I was unaware of the politics and or funding situation.
> 
> Matt


Me either.

It's interesting to be told the reasons for decisions/situations that on the face of it seem unfair.

It does cut through a lot of the woffle/bluster from the critics when the reasoning is laid bare and those with the onerous task of making the decisions are shown to be reasonable and rational after all.


..............and working in the best interests of ALL.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Greysides,

_"It does cut through a lot of the woffle/bluster from the critics when the reasoning is laid bare and those with the onerous task of making the decisions are shown to be reasonable and rational after all."_

I agree completely, an explanation of the 'why' is wonderfully clarifying. 

But why should this explanation have to come from a third party? I think the USA execs should be fulfilling this communication component directly to the membership about what's happening and why. Part of the role of leadership.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Greysides,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Larry, I was speaking in generalities and thinking of comments on on-going changes to field rules- recently in FITA and currently in IFAA. 

However, I do agree with you, even if this time it isn't my fight.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

This debate over what sacrifice really means parallels ones over religion, politics, civil rights and the like. There is no clear correct answer. I am no professional athelete, but I have five daughters. I make a decent salary, but five kids drains that pretty quickly. I chose to have three and then my wife took off, and I re-married a lady with two of her own. I chose this fate as I most certainly could have done it differently. I could also say that I sacrificed my personal wants to better fullfill those of my children. I think the terms can sometimes be interchangeable. I do bust my arse taking care of my family, but I enjoy the end result. I have five happy daughters that give me a reason to go to work. I would probably be working at McDonalds if I did not have them to motivate me. I view the definition of sacrifice as the act of trading something of great importance for the benefit of someone else. I do not think olympians do this. I would say someone who is an aspiring olympian but chooses not to train to comfort a dying parent in their hour of need is someone making a sacrifice. I would say that an archer who sees another with a broken bow standing sadly at a tournament and offers their only personal bow at the expensive of their own tournament dreams as someone making a sacrifice. Someone choosing to give up college for a chance at olympic glory is not really sacrificing anything though. If that were true I guess Koby would have sacrificed his chance to work at UPS for making millions in the NBA. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

We are the United States of America. We are the wealthiest nation on earth. We ooze excess. Let's look at food alone. If all the other nations of the earth consumed the annual amount of food we consume it would take 3 planet earths to feel us. Yet we can't fund a team to shoot in the World Champs. I got note after note to help support our U.S. Olympic archers. Really? It was the most watched ever and our nation obsessed about the medal count. NBC made millions on coverage. Sponsors made millions, but we have to have a car wash in the U.S. to help send our archers? Sorry but I'm not putting this on family or individual choices.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

NBC 'risked' hundreds of million$. If they show a profit in the end, good for them.

Ensuring an adherence to contract law, protection of US citizens' property and lives, and sound money. That's the business the government's supposed to be in (theoretically, and not managing that limited list well at all, imo), not the Olympic 'Games'. I love to be entertained by the Olympics, but I don't think taxpayers should have any responsibility to fund the participants.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Yes, exactly what I was thinking.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I didn't mean to say that I think the government should subsidize the trip. The government doesn't fund the USOC nor the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista. What I am saying is that you would think that those who stand to proffer from the Games might be willing to help out. I simply don't think it's that much to ask. I get the choice piece but we have so much that you would think we could easily raise support for our team.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jimmy, archery just hasn't landed the right sponsors yet. That's all. When they do, our teams will be well funded, but they will also become pawns in the great marketing game. So it's always a double-edged sword. 

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Jimmy,

_"What I am saying is that you would think that those who stand to proffer from the Games might be willing to help out."_

Yes, I agree with you there 100%. And with John, too. 

I mean, Puma pays Usain Bolt $9million a year. And he gets paid $150,000 to $250,000 in appearance fees just to show up to run. The money these track guys get is astounding. Somebody at USArchery should be ('is', hopefully) pitching Nike on the idea of sponsoring an entire sport (archery) for less than they spend on one or two track sprinters. Maybe come out with an archery shirt (that has several buttons on the back of the sleeve and down the side to tighten up the shirt so a chest protector isn't needed). Or a Nike chest protector with designs that match Nike's new best selling running shoes of the season. Or archery shoes. Or whatever.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If they think there is a buck to made, they will be there. 

It's always a chicken or egg debate. If you have enough audience, the sponsors will come. If you don't have sponsors, you can't generate enough interest to draw the audience. and so on...

There are plenty of us that really don't mind all that much that money isn't (quite yet) completely controlling our sport. Oh, it's there alright, don't get me wrong, but the minute Nike starts paying our archers $500K/year for sponsorship, the 11 year-old JOAD kids won't be able to go up and talk to the US Archery Team anymore, or shoot on the same line with them. So we'll lose that, sure enough.

The other thing we'll lose - if we haven't already lost it - are anything that resemble a straight answer from top archers and coaches. Sponsored athletes - especially WELL sponsored athletes - always have to be careful what they say and can rarely offer an objective opinion. If they do offer an opinion, it's usually ONLY on the equipment they are "authorized" to use. So their opinions become less valuable in the long run.

Inviting money into a sport, or any organization, is always a trade-off. 

John


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