# Stabiliser length guideline



## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Is there a consensus or recommendations for total length of the stabiliser system (long + extender) in relation to the draw length or bow length, or is it simply trial and error? I understand the v-bar will add 1-2 inch to the system but let’s disregard that for now. I read something about the total length ideally should be about 6 inches longer than draw length, is there any truth to that? I read Vittorio Frangilli previously saying somewhere that extender should be at least 5 inches to be of use.
And any guideline on side rod length in relation to long rod + extender, I understand 12 inch rather than 10 is recommended for longer end of the total system spectrum. I know the weights attached has a significant impact on ratio of long vs side rods.


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

I have always found thats it is trial and error . Some people dont even run a extender I think Brady Elision dosent used 1 All I can recommend its beg borrow or steal some to try


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

From my extensive testing, the total stabilizer system should never be shorter than then length necessary to comfortably rest your bow on the ground between shots... :wink:


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

Balance/dampening/stability/weight factors aside, if the long rod/extender/vbar combination isn't long enough that you can rest the end weight on the ground and use the bow as a support to lean on between ends, then you're stuck wasting energy. If leaning on the bow puts your hand higher than your elbow, then it's too long to be an effective support. 
If using an extenderless setup, then having the side rods extend slightly past the string means you can forego a stand without getting the string particularly dirty on flat ground, which saves valuable seconds during setup and makes it harder to lose your stand.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

tkaap said:


> From my extensive testing, the total stabilizer system should never be shorter than then length necessary to comfortably rest your bow on the ground between shots... :wink:


There you go!!!! Great answer!!! Let's not forget to add that the stab needs to be long enough so you can sit it on the ground and comfortably load an arrow.

I have front stabs between 28" and 33". I really can't tell much difference.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

the front rod system should be longer than your arrow to use minimal weight for the counterbalance.

the longer the front rod system, the less weight needed. The shorter, the more. Personal preference to how much weight you like/ can withstand for your shot. Dampers also come into play somewhat when deciding weight amount.

Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The truth is most people don't really know. They see what the other guy is doing and they copy. That guy in turn watches Ki Bo Bae and decides that white colored GMX is the key, and that the bow must swing a certain way as a sure sign of a correct stabilizer setup.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

In reality the ideal setup is kept in the realm of fantasy, by the bow industry. These guys decide the combinations available to you, and that combination has been long decided decades ago and has barely changed. Not that these combinations don't work, oh no, they do work pretty well considering my archer just send 9 arrows downrange at 70m inside a 15cm diameter ring, made possible by changing one weight. 

You might want to consider some factors in your quest to find the best combination. Things like rod diameter in the wind, stiffness, weight, follow through habits, price, resale value etc. For now.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

DId I say 15cm? Sorry, I meant 10cm......


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Thank you all for input. Looks like it’s much of a personal preference, ergonomic support and maneuverability. I was a bit worried that my 30 inch long rod will not work for stabilisation for some reason if I was to add an extender, read somewhere that in some systems, its function falls apart with >30 inch long rod. My 30 inch long rod without extender or side rod seems to do okay job for vertical stabilisation.



SHPoet said:


> There you go!!!! Great answer!!! Let's not forget to add that the stab needs to be long enough so you can sit it on the ground and comfortably load an arrow.
> 
> I have front stabs between 28" and 33". I really can't tell much difference.


Would that be long rod only or long rod + extender (and v-bar)?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

tkaap said:


> From my extensive testing, the total stabilizer system should never be shorter than then length necessary to comfortably rest your bow on the ground between shots... :wink:


This may have been a somewhat tongue in cheek response but that is exactly how I like it. When the length is right I can set my hand in the grip correctly to set up my shot. You can effect changes in the moment of the system by adding or removing weight depending on the length of the rod and get essentially the same feel. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Okay, I opened this thread thinking I would gleam some science behind the stabs [sort of the same reason I'm painting all my risers blue I guess], and come to find out many of you more experienced recurvers determine length the same way I do... Has to be long enough to rest it on the ground between shots. 

Serious question though- What is, or for what purpose, is an extender? My first thought was simply to make the front rod "longer," but in my lack of incidental learning [learning through observation], I'm thinking I've got it wrong.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The intended purpose was to act as a booster. Rods that were too long often wobbled too much from being made of less stiff materials. Also shifted the mass forward, which was the purpose seen by many users. Which didn’t make sense since the side rods folded back......leading me to say that most people don’t really know the logic behind stabilization.

With ultra stiff carbon, those limits are a thing of the past. For me, the Vbar location has to coincide with(or be in the vicinity of) the lateral location of the center of mass of the entire setup (slightly forward of it actually). It’s the most logical position, and most efficient. Which statistically speaking, is about a 2 inch long extender for most risers.


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

theminoritydude said:


> The intended purpose was to act as a booster. Rods that were too long often wobbled too much from being made of less stiff materials. Also shifted the mass forward, which was the purpose seen by many users. Which didn’t make sense since the side rods folded back......leading me to say that most people don’t really know the logic behind stabilization.
> 
> With ultra stiff carbon, those limits are a thing of the past. For me, the Vbar location has to coincide with(or be in the vicinity of) the lateral location of the center of mass of the entire setup (slightly forward of it actually). It’s the most logical position, and most efficient. Which statistically speaking, is about a 2 inch long extender for most risers.


I think extender is also used widely to give some distance between the riser and side rods, to prevent it from brushing against the grip, for example. As to Mr Frangilli’s preference for 5+ inches extender, I think he wrote about rationale earlier somewhere...hopefully I’m tall enough that extender + 30 inch long rods won’t have the wrist above the elbow while resting, or will need to get a new long rod...


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

@theminoritydude: Well the Vbar location around the CG seems to makes sense. Do you have your archers run a short extender?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> I think extender is also used widely to give some distance between the riser and side rods, to prevent it from brushing against the grip, for example. As to Mr Frangilli’s preference for 5+ inches extender, I think he wrote about rationale earlier somewhere...hopefully I’m tall enough that extender + 30 inch long rods won’t have the wrist above the elbow while resting, or will need to get a new long rod...


Your side rods can't brush against the grip. The side rod can however interfere with your hand during the follow through. In fact that's my excuse for using a 3 inch extender at the bewilderment of my local contemporaries, who balked at the idea of not using a 5 inch rod because, men.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

calbowdude said:


> @theminoritydude: Well the Vbar location around the CG seems to makes sense. Do you have your archers run a short extender?


"The measure of a man, is the poundage of his bow, the spine of his arrows, and the length of his extender." I coined the phrase as sarcasm but it has taken a life of its own where I live. 

But for my archer, he takes whatever I give him.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Everything I had to say about stabilizing a recurve bow is lready in THA 

But I have summarized combination of stiffness to lenght to poundage to make easier to choose stabilizer in the table below 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bc3vrdv...bilizers_Selection_Chart_Recurve_2018_04R.pdf

P.S.
Harry, you should tell to your fellow Koreans to change back from their 7" and 6" extenders to your suggested 2" only ...


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

I think Vittorio’s guidance looks as good as anything else I’ve seen but it is just a starting point. I have a 32” draw length but could never get the right feel with a long setup - by the above I’d have a 6” extender and at least a 30” longrod. I always preferred (both feel and results) a 4” or 5” extender and a 24 to 26” longrod with a little more weight. I love the feel of a 6” extender but find my results erratic. And that tells me that I set up my stabilisers to cover my form flaws 

Now I have a busted wrist and a busted elbow so I set up my bow to compensate for my physical flaws as well - so now no extender, very neutral balance, and much less mass :embara:

So shoot what works for you and keeps you shooting (and as I put my bottom limb tip on my foot I don’t need my longrod to double as a crutch!) But I would say play with your options outside, preferably with a little wind. The results might be quite different from your findings indoor/windless conditions.

Stretch


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> Thank you all for input. Looks like it’s much of a personal preference, ergonomic support and maneuverability.


 This is a trap one should not fall into. 

Longer the stabilizer the less weight you will need to set your weight distribution. For example if you are long-limbed and/or not as strong as an ox, you may want to consider a longer stabilizer setup so you don't have to use as many weights to get your stabilizer setup tuned. If you are short-limb and/or strong as an ox, shorter stabilizers may be preferred, so that they won't be as affected by the wind, and then just add weights until your stabilizer setup is tuned.

Cheaper stabilizers may or may not be stiff enough to handle whatever weight you need to balance out your setup, so going long with these may have a detrimental affect. 

In all reality, length doesn't really matter, as long as you are able to handle whatever weight you have to put on your stabilizers to tune them.

Weight distribution is based upon two primary things and they are the individual archer's technique and grip used. From my experience the higher the grip the more front weight distribution I need to tune my stabilizers correctly, but that could also be tied to my technique. I haven't had the opportunity to discuss with other archers if they have found similar findings concerning the grip.

The way I tune my stabilizers, I do this really at the end of my micro-tune portion of my tuning process. To determine the proper forward/back weight distribution, I shoot a bunch of arrows. If I start noticing when I miss, the arrows hit high, then I either add weight to my front bar and/or take off weight on my back end, i.e. v-bars for most. If when I miss it is normally low, then I either take weight off my front bar and/or add weight to my back end.

Left and right weight distribution if you are using v-bars, I start initially looking at my balance first, by putting a level on my bow, close my eyes, draw back to anchor, open my eyes and see if I'm canting my bow left or right. If I am, I either add weight on the opposite bar and/or take off weight on the same side bar of the cant. This part should be done at the initial setup of the bow system. 

If your stabilizer system is not setup to you, the archer, it could be costing you points, and in some cases a lot of points. 

Also don't be afraid to try different things and different setups. The "orthodox" stabilizer setup currently is a long rod, two v-bars and/or an extender; which works great for most archers out there, but it may not be the best setup for you as an archer.

My current configuration is a 32" long rod attached directly to a 5" extender; a 15" short rod in my bottom stabilizer threaded hole on my riser; a 2" extender in the hole below my grip facing backwards (wiawis nano max riser), with weight on it. Before that I was shooting a standard setup, and just got into a rut you would say. Couldn't get past a 300 out of 360 at 70m. Was averaging around 285-290. Changed my setup to my current configuration, played with the forward/back weight distribution as highlighted above, the first time I shot with this setup, I shot horribly and almost gave up on it, but noticed toward the end of the day I go better with it. So the next day after warming up, said heck with it, lets score and shot a 310+. Before then my very best was a 303 out of 360. Within that week, I averaged over 310 per round, and did not dip below what my personal best was previously. So just by going to a "unorthodox" setup gained me around 15 points in a 36 arrow round.

Just my thoughts and my experiences. Don't take the stabilizers lightly. They will definitely cost you points.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Most of the thinking when extenders first became common was to move the center of mass of the system forward because the line of force of the bowarm through the grip is slightly outside the physical center of the riser. Frankly, it does not make much difference if you have enough mass on the bars to resist any torgue in the system, and that depends on the lengths and weights, along with how much one can tolerate. I have found that a near neutral balance with as much mass as I am comfortable with is best for me. It really is mostly about how you feel about the action of the bow and how it affects the way you finish the shot. The effect on the arrow itself is minimal.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> Thank you all for input. Looks like it’s much of a personal preference, ergonomic support and maneuverability. I was a bit worried that my 30 inch long rod will not work for stabilisation for some reason if I was to add an extender, read somewhere that in some systems, its function falls apart with >30 inch long rod. My 30 inch long rod without extender or side rod seems to do okay job for vertical stabilisation.
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be long rod only or long rod + extender (and v-bar)?


30" front bar, 4" extender with the V-Bar adapter.


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

theminoritydude said:


> Your side rods can't brush against the grip. The side rod can however interfere with your hand during the follow through. In fact that's my excuse for using a 3 inch extender at the bewilderment of my local contemporaries, who balked at the idea of not using a 5 inch rod because, men.


Oops, that's the inconvenience of not using extender I was referring to.




SHPoet said:


> 30" front bar, 4" extender with the V-Bar adapter.


Thank you. That's 34 inch total, similar to my proposed set-up.




Vittorio said:


> Everything I had to say about stabilizing a recurve bow is lready in THA
> 
> But I have summarized combination of stiffness to lenght to poundage to make easier to choose stabilizer in the table below
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reference table, Signor Frangilli. Given your previous advocacy for 5+ inch extender, I imagine you and "Theminoritydude" are in different schools of thoughts on this, and I take it the postscript was more of a jest?

I am still to get a v-bar, but with my W&W ACS Nano set up (believe it's evolution of HMC+) of 30 inch long-rod, with 12 inch side rods and 5 inch extender, it may be that the long rod may need to be changed judging from Signor Frangilli's table, for my "just over" 29 inch draw length and 32 lbs limbs I just ordered. I guess I can wait until I play with the full set-up including v-bar before I decide to ditch 30 inch rod for a 28 one? One way or another I would like to keep this one set of stabiliser for a long time. 28/12/5 inch will be close to the recommendation on his table. At least its stiffness will hold better with 28 inch long rod, though I hope the high modulus carbon quality is good enough regardless...


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

UK_Stretch said:


> I think Vittorio’s guidance looks as good as anything else I’ve seen but it is just a starting point. I have a 32” draw length but could never get the right feel with a long setup - by the above I’d have a 6” extender and at least a 30” longrod. I always preferred (both feel and results) a 4” or 5” extender and a 24 to 26” longrod with a little more weight. I love the feel of a 6” extender but find my results erratic. And that tells me that I set up my stabilisers to cover my form flaws
> 
> Now I have a busted wrist and a busted elbow so I set up my bow to compensate for my physical flaws as well - so now no extender, very neutral balance, and much less mass :embara:
> 
> ...


Sucks to hear about your injuries. Will try the system outdoors certainly!




erose said:


> This is a trap one should not fall into.
> 
> Longer the stabilizer the less weight you will need to set your weight distribution. For example if you are long-limbed and/or not as strong as an ox, you may want to consider a longer stabilizer setup so you don't have to use as many weights to get your stabilizer setup tuned. If you are short-limb and/or strong as an ox, shorter stabilizers may be preferred, so that they won't be as affected by the wind, and then just add weights until your stabilizer setup is tuned.
> 
> ...


Thank you for such an informative post. I will keep the pointers in mind, including the alternative set-up you have been playing with!




lcaillo said:


> Most of the thinking when extenders first became common was to move the center of mass of the system forward because the line of force of the bowarm through the grip is slightly outside the physical center of the riser. Frankly, it does not make much difference if you have enough mass on the bars to resist any torgue in the system, and that depends on the lengths and weights, along with how much one can tolerate. I have found that a near neutral balance with as much mass as I am comfortable with is best for me. It really is mostly about how you feel about the action of the bow and how it affects the way you finish the shot. The effect on the arrow itself is minimal.


Yes, I am aiming for near-neutral balance on mathematics on paper, real physics and arrow landing; will be lots of trial and adjustments.


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## jmcmurchie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

if memory serves, George Ryals and Jake Kaminski have posted YouTube videos about weight to length relationships on stabilizers. For length I find nothing works except trial and error.


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