# PSE Carbon air



## Cotton1983 (Sep 15, 2015)

Is this the new bow. I'm not familiar with their lineup but it says new on their website


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## MICCOX (Sep 28, 2008)

It is there flag ship bow for this year


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

For a meager price of $1,500.


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## PSEjaws (Dec 7, 2004)

I have heard rumblings of one more bow to be released as well.


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## catcherarcher (Sep 23, 2014)

Brand new. Just released today.


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## piratkey (Feb 11, 2015)

http://pse-archery.com/shop/pro-series-compound-bows/pse-carbon-air/


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

Wolfey said:


> Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


you can tell very quickly who actually understand carbon technology and who doesn't by posts like this.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

Wolfey said:


> Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


I don't think it looks anything like Hoyt's Ramen Noodle® riser. It has a look of its own.


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## Toddk31 (Feb 11, 2007)

Wolfey said:


> Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


Looks a lot cleaner and probably a lot better finish than the Hoyt junk.


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

I'll admit I don't know much on different manufacturing types for making carbon but it's very similar and most likely wouldn't be able to tell a difference from a hoyt. But please enlighten me on what's so different besides the name of the manufacturing process.


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## CHILLX#1 (Jan 21, 2015)

Hidden Danger said:


> I don't think it looks anything like Hoyt's Ramen Noodle® riser. It has a look of its own.


X2 haha


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

Toddk31 said:


> Looks a lot cleaner and probably a lot better finish than the Hoyt junk.


Ok your looking at a pic on they're website that always looks perfect. So your comment is worthless till a bunch of these are in stores to actually see.


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## Toddk31 (Feb 11, 2007)

Not similar to the Hoyt. Watch the video. One piece carbon shell filled with dampening.


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## Toddk31 (Feb 11, 2007)

Wolfey said:


> Ok your looking at a pic on they're website that always looks perfect. So your comment is worthless till a bunch of these are in stores to actually see.


No PSE's all have a nice finish, unlike Hoyt. They all suck.


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

Toddk31 said:


> No PSE's all have a nice finish, unlike Hoyt. They all suck.


You're a fool I'm not gonna waste my time on. I've seen bows with way better finishes than pse and hoyt has good finish on all but the carbon bows which we'll see if pse has figured it out but it's their first carbon so u have no chance of knowing if the finish will hold up or not.


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## Darkvador (Oct 15, 2013)

$1,500 for a PSE? I have to see this thing. I lose my butt every time I try a PSE and have to sell it. Don't think I will risk this one but I can't wait to check it out. Glad to see they aren't resting on their laurels.


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## FIB (Jul 25, 2008)

I wonder where PSE's riser is made? I know my Hoyt CE riser was made in China and I've never been too happy about that.


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

Wolfey said:


> I'll admit I don't know much on different manufacturing types for making carbon but it's very similar and most likely wouldn't be able to tell a difference from a hoyt. But please enlighten me on what's so different besides the name of the manufacturing process.


a carbon monocoque is a design in which the entire shell is woven as one piece and designed to take all structural loads. this is how Formula 1 cars are constructed due to the lightweight, rigidity, and ability to absorb impact. 

also as people have been mentioning finish, this monocoque design should also allow for a more uniform finish as well. 

this is not a cheap process. it is a lot more expensive than Hoyt's tubular design (which is a great design, but this is the future). it should get cheaper in the future.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

I can't wait to get my hands on one.


jorkep said:


> you can tell very quickly who actually understand carbon technology and who doesn't by posts like this.


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

jorkep said:


> a carbon monocoque is a design in which the entire shell is woven as one piece and designed to take all structural loads. this is how Formula 1 cars are constructed due to the lightweight, rigidity, and ability to absorb impact.


Is hoyt riser the same?


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

Wolfey said:


> Is hoyt riser the same?


No Hoyt takes individual woven carbon tubes and blends them together.


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## Bowhunter328 (Aug 10, 2012)

Does anyone know when they will start rolling into the shops?


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

Alright. I'd like to compare the two now.


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

here's a good timelapse video on building a carbon monocoque chassis. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIUS9LSMuc


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't know a lot about the differing carbon technologies either but in the bike world the monocoque is referred to as designer carbon. If you read unbiased reports on the various bikes and manufacturing process there doesn't seem to be significant real world practical advantages of one over the other as far as function. Since the monocoque is one continuous piece it can be shaped, and designed to give a much more "elegant" or designer type look.


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

mez said:


> I don't know a lot about the differing carbon technologies either but in the bike world the monocoque is referred to as designer carbon. If you read unbiased reports on the various bikes and manufacturing process there doesn't seem to be significant real world practical advantages of one over the other as far as function. Since the monocoque is one continuous piece it can be shaped, and designed to give a much more "elegant" or designer type look.


it depends on how the loads are generated and impacts. it does very well in racing applications because the shell is not only extremely light and much stronger than steel it also absorbs force throughout the entire piece.

we will see if it has an appreciable impact on archery equipment.


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## A-A-Ron (Oct 17, 2014)

I'll have to have a 2016 left over next October for about half of msrp when the next latest and greatest Come out! Can't wait! Everyone else gets excited when the new bows come out. I get excited when the new old bows go on sale!


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## Trueball13 (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm going to test shoot one for sure, looks like a quality bow from pse like there last few years of bows have been and they bettered themselves again. I want to see what elite comes out with.


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## waterfowler24 (Oct 1, 2008)

Pretty sweet looking.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

Wolfey said:


> Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


It's identical to the Carbon spyder. They are even the same color. Lol


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## Whaack (Apr 2, 2006)

Interesting. Ascetically I like the PSE much better.


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## JakeZ7 (May 25, 2013)

Hidden Danger said:


> It's identical to the Carbon spyder. They are even the same color. Lol


Definitely brings the carbon element to mind a little more than the spyder but this PSE is much better looking (and i'm a Hoyt fan). I haven't shot a PSE in years but I think I'll have to find somewhere to shoot this one.


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## KimberTac1911 (Feb 27, 2012)

^I like that pse is jumping in the carbon game but i dont like the looks of the riser. I will have to try one out, i dont care about looks  FYI i dont like the hoyt carbon riser as well


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## ChappyHOYT (Feb 26, 2009)

Like Hoyt in that it has a bridged riser (though started by Martin I believe), hollow carbon riser even if it filled with something (sounds like a good thing), probably made in the U.S. (unlike hoyts) Companies are always copying each other. Elite took the riser cage from others, Hoyt followed by one on theirs. Solocams made their rotations, different forms of systems, lawsuits and such. Just shoot it and have fun. I wish I could own one bow from each manufacturer. Alas........


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Hidden Danger said:


> It's identical to the Carbon spyder. They are even the same color. Lol


Could be twins


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## kdsberman (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm sure it'll be a sweet shooter, but to me it looks ugly.


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## gridman (Aug 26, 2007)

sorry, that thing looks hideous


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## Nate79 (Dec 24, 2012)

definitely looks similar to the hoyts but I think it has a cleaner design aesthetic wise. ill have to shoot this bow, maybe my dealer will give me a "special" price.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

PSE was never on my radar, until now. That thing looks sensational, and the weight... This one I will be looking at.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

Hidden Danger said:


> It's identical to the Carbon spyder. They are even the same color. Lol


It does look cleaner than that mangled mess on the right.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

deadduck357 said:


> It does look cleaner than that mangled mess on the right.


That is an understatement. LOL!


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

I like it.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

Let's compare shall we?

#1-carbon air

#2-carbon matrix

#3-carbon element


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## tolait (Jan 8, 2009)

Wolfey said:


> You're a fool I'm not gonna waste my time on. I've seen bows with way better finishes than pse and hoyt has good finish on all but the carbon bows which we'll see if pse has figured it out but it's their first carbon so u have no chance of knowing if the finish will hold up or not.


not the first pse carbon bow the carbon lite was a 1995 model.
but I would think this one will be another great bow from pse


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Wolfey said:


> Just a Hoyt copy. Looks good though but reading the tech was funny.


In what ways it is a Hoyt copy? Because it's carbon?

Funny in what way? Since I'm the guy who wrote the catalog copy for those pages, I always appreciate feedback. Or was the issue technical?

Look, I'm all for folks pumping up their brand of bow, but if you're gonna make an assertion you should at least support it with something.

Thanks,
Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Wolfey said:


> Ok your looking at a pic on they're website that always looks perfect. So your comment is worthless till a bunch of these are in stores to actually see.


If you put this physically side by side with a Hoyt, the difference is striking. But if you want to tell me how they are similar, how the Carbon tech is similar, etc. etc. I'm happy to listen, man. I'm here to get feedback, good or bad.

Thanks,
Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

FIB said:


> I wonder where PSE's riser is made? I know my Hoyt CE riser was made in China and I've never been too happy about that.


The good 'ol US of A

Donn Green
PSE Markeing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Bowhunter328 said:


> Does anyone know when they will start rolling into the shops?


Our target is by December.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Wolfey said:


> Alright. I'd like to compare the two now.


Awesome to hear...or uh, read. Shoot it when it gets in stores and tell me what you think.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

PSE_DG said:


> Awesome to hear...or uh, read. Shoot it when it gets in stores and tell me what you think.
> 
> Donn Green
> PSE Marketing


Unfortunately my local shop won't stock a PSE that's over $500. The only way I'll get to try one is if I just happen to catch the rep when he's passing through. :sad:


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

I'll see what I can do. But I'll try to get a good comparison when I can.


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Hidden Danger said:


> Let's compare shall we?
> 
> #1-carbon air
> 
> ...


You're right...Hoyt also makes...black carbon bows. I remember when the Full Throttle came out in all black and then some other bow company (Bowtech, maybe) came out with an all black bow the same year. Bear too. We couldn't believe it. They even had an aluminum riser...and cams. Limbs too. But for us, the strings were the deal breaker. That's when we knew we had a leak inside the company. People on Archery Talk were freaking out...it was chaos. Dogs and cats living together. :wink:

All kidding aside, these carbon bows will share a certain aesthetic simply due to the nature of the material and how the bow needs to be constructed. However, what you can't see on your fuzzy fuzzy photos is that the tubular construction of the Hoyt's give them a much different look than the clean aesthetic of the Carbon Air. The tubes are why the Hoyt bows look arthritic. Some people love that tangled vine look, but our bow is looks like a modern secy piece of technology -- because it is. 

But everyone is welcome to their opinion. 

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## lee31 (Nov 5, 2007)

The real question is has anyone from PSE run it over with a truck yet ? Like Hoyt did with there bow . Everyone knows that's how you test Carbon bows


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## blazenarrow (Feb 6, 2009)

lee31 said:


> The real question is has anyone drone PSE run it over with a truck yet ? Like Hoyt did with there bow . Everyone knows that's how you test Carbon bows


Really!


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## jpittm2 (Jul 1, 2013)

I like the look..... I spent $1400 on my Kestrel, so $1500 for a new PSE is worth it to me....For me, it's not about what I need....It's all about the "WANT". sign me up for camo riser black limbs.


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## blazenarrow (Feb 6, 2009)

Pse is a great bow... Glad you guys came out with something like this.. Hoyt guys are just mad because they thought no other company could do this. Can't wait to try one.. Good job pse


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## Malcolm (Jan 5, 2015)

I don't buy much of the technical stuff, but it looks like being a pretty cool piece of gear.

If anyone can tell me what "stress weight" is, I'm listening...

Putting the pedantic points aside though, selling S-RAC as being an added feature for vibration damping might just be this year's most genius bit of archery marketing. If I wanted to make a carbon riser, I'd start with a machined / cast block of syntactic foam. Then I'd wrap the outside with prepreg, throw the whole thing into a two-part mould and bake it. Much easier than say, a hollow tubular structure...

Now it just so happens that you can market syntactic foam as a damping material too. That's not to say S-RAC is a pre-formed structural foam core, or that it'd be a bad thing if it was, but it'd be a sensible way to approach manufacturing and why not mention damping at the same time?

It's not really the first carbon monocoque riser though. Europeans in sheds have been selling carbon monocoque recurves [I'm not discussing their quality here] for years - just google Fiberbow for an example.

As an aside, has anyone ever noticed how other manufacturers' tubular risers aren't made of completely separate tubes, or held together with bolts/dowels/string? They're moulded together aren't they? Almost like a... monocoque?

Of course, none of this is taking away from the new bow; I'll be in the queue to try one, even if it's not remotely designed for what I shoot (FITA)


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I think the new bows look great and can't wait to shoot one. The upside in buying one here in Iowa is that used PSE plummet in value (even more then the other big companies) not sure why this is but after buying and selling dozen if PSE flagships over the years it has always proven to be true. It is a bit suprising considering how big the Drury's are here in the state. What this means is that for those crazy guys like me that have to try everything the Air will be able to be bought used for less them a comparable used carbon Hoyt. The downside to this of course is the selling price and what you will get out of it will be drastically lower. This is fine if you keep your bow a long time, but hurts if you are always wanting to try out different bows.


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## jmack73 (Jan 17, 2013)

True that!


Campbell10 said:


> I'll have to have a 2016 left over next October for about half of msrp when the next latest and greatest Come out! Can't wait! Everyone else gets excited when the new bows come out. I get excited when the new old bows go on sale!


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## jpittm2 (Jul 1, 2013)

Don, is there any chance that PSE will be shipping these sooner than December???? would love to be able to get one in the woods this season for some S.W Michigan Bow hunting in Sweet November


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

PSE hasn't really come up with their own good ideas in many a year probably since the early 90's. The X-Force got them back on the map but that was borrowed from a couple sources such as the XI bow line which they purchased. Just before XI/Indian Archery died they came out with a bow with a solid limb that had a heavy preload and a really hard cam which contributed to the design of the X-Force. The resulting cam violated a McPherson/Mathews owned patent so they had to change it. They also utilized a split limb which while a great idea, once again not their own. Their bows usually work pretty good in spite of them not being terribly innovatve!


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## masterchef (Aug 6, 2007)

All ugly all too expensive to justify.


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## BARBWIRE (Feb 12, 2015)

I like it.Looks much cleaner than the Hoyt.I really am digging the new line up from PSE.


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## waydownsouth (Jun 18, 2012)

To each their own I guess, but I think the hoyt's are the better looking bow. I hope these new pse bows draw better than previous models, unlike the butter smooth z5 cams on the hoyt's..


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## THOMASBOW1 (Jun 29, 2007)




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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

blazenarrow said:


> Pse is a great bow... Glad you guys came out with something like this.. Hoyt guys are just mad because they thought no other company could do this. Can't wait to try one.. Good job pse


Not this Hoyt guy. I thought tge PSE was ugly at first sight, but I really kind of like it now just like I like the Hoyt carbon. I just love tge feel of a darbon riser and the PSE is probably great. I love Hoyt's because I have always shot them best and never a single complaint. When the carbon PSE grows in length I will give it a try.


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I love Hoyts as well but would challenge anyone to shoot a Decree HD against a Z5 and tell me the HD cams aren't smoother and easier to pull at any given draw weight. 

The cams on the DNA were far from forgiving, but those HD cams are completely different and make the decree HD the "easiest" pulling bow since the Chill X, only with 20 fps gain in speed.


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## Bowhunter328 (Aug 10, 2012)

Here's what I felt like when I saw the Carbon Air video for the first time.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

I like the new bow, much cleaner design than Hoyt's, but no long draw models? I need a 32". My only question, won't the cable slide slam into the back of the riser? --BB


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Did any of you pse guy's notice the carbon air riser looks alot like the carbon hoyt's?


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## dhom (Jun 10, 2008)

573mms said:


> Did any of you pse guy's notice the carbon air riser looks alot like the carbon hoyt's?


Just wake up? A little late to the party.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

573mms said:


> Did any of you pse guy's notice the carbon air riser looks alot like the carbon hoyt's?


I did, but with less "tubing" on the backside, it just looks cleaner. Plus it's American made! It does hurt to say this-I own two Hoyts, for now. If they offer this in a long draw, I may have to sell them. --BB


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## psychobaby111 (Mar 23, 2008)

Cool looking bow! Can't wait to shoot it


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Anyone else notice how deflected the buss cable appears to be at brace in both the pics and the video(s)?


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

dhom said:


> Just wake up? A little late to the party.


I work for a living, don't have time to be on here all day.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

The limbs look more preloaded to me than the Hoyts and the limb pocket geometry is also pretty different between the two. I see a lot of differences between them and don't see the clone some have claimed to see.

Who care who invented what? Karl Benz is credited for inventing the automobile but Henry Ford made it better, massed produced it, and therefore made it affordable for more people.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

I have a 84lb decree with HD cams and it felt smoother than a cst I was setting up at 61lbs .to me the HD cams blow the z5 cams out of the water .


waydownsouth said:


> To each their own I guess, but I think the hoyt's are the better looking bow. I hope these new pse bows draw better than previous models, unlike the butter smooth z5 cams on the hoyt's..


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

573mms said:


> Did any of you pse guy's notice the carbon air riser looks alot like the carbon hoyt's?


Some but a lot cleaner.

I'm not a PSE guy, I own one but I'm a Bowtech guy - I think.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

Trust me I noticed that, and the fact the "bridge" is far enough back to mount a Versa Rest slid all the way back-unlike a Hoyt, also caught my eye.--BB


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Bourbon Boy said:


> I did, but with less "tubing" on the backside, it just looks cleaner. Plus it's American made! It does hurt to say this-I own two Hoyts, for now. If they offer this in a long draw, I may have to sell them. --BB


That would be a carbon matrix, this is a carbon element. Maybe in a couple years they will come out with a carbon spyder!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Crow Terminator said:


> Karl Benz is credited for inventing the automobile but Henry Ford made it better, massed produced it, and therefore made it affordable for more people.


Are you predicting that PSE is going to make it better, mass produce it, and make carbon risers more affordable... all before anyone gets to handle one. Sounds good...


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

waydownsouth said:


> To each their own I guess, but I think the hoyt's are the better looking bow. I hope these new pse bows draw better than previous models, unlike the butter smooth z5 cams on the hoyt's..


I have two Nitrum 34's, great drawing bows for sure. But my Freak SP is even better, honestly, it feels a lot lower on poundage then it is.--BB


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)




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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Bourbon Boy said:


> I did, but with less "tubing" on the backside, it just looks cleaner. Plus it's American made! It does hurt to say this-I own two Hoyts, for now. If they offer this in a long draw, I may have to sell them. --BB





Bourbon Boy said:


> I have two Nitrum 34's, great drawing bows for sure. But my Freak SP is even better, honestly, it feels a lot lower on poundage then it is.--BB


It must be alot different at your draw length because at 28in the 34 is hard to beat.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

0nepin said:


> I have a 84lb decree with HD cams and it felt smoother than a cst I was setting up at 61lbs .to me the HD cams blow the z5 cams out of the water .


A 84lb pse feals better than a 61lb hoyt, everybody knows your a fanboy now!


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Smoother. Seriously shoot a decree HD and then a cst .the draw is not even close in smoothness ..I did not say the 84lb HD was easier to pull . .


573mms said:


> A 84lb pse feals better than a 61lb hoyt, everybody knows your a fanboy now!


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## ridgehunter70 (Sep 30, 2012)

Bowhunter328 said:


> Here's what I felt like when I saw the Carbon Air video for the first time.


Or like I was


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

573mms said:


> It must be alot different at your draw length because at 28in the 34 is hard to beat.


I won't argue with you on that. The Hoyt's are about 10 FPS faster, and very smooth with no hump at all. I think the extra ATA of the Freak has a lot to do with it being a little easier. A lot of bows are great until you get one at max draw length, that's where Hoyt and PSE do the best of all the ones I've shot/owned.--BB


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

PSE_DG said:


> You're right...Hoyt also makes...black carbon bows. I remember when the Full Throttle came out in all black and then some other bow company (Bowtech, maybe) came out with an all black bow the same year. Bear too. We couldn't believe it. They even had an aluminum riser...and cams. Limbs too. But for us, the strings were the deal breaker. That's when we knew we had a leak inside the company. People on Archery Talk were freaking out...it was chaos. Dogs and cats living together. :wink:
> 
> All kidding aside, these carbon bows will share a certain aesthetic simply due to the nature of the material and how the bow needs to be constructed. However, what you can't see on your fuzzy fuzzy photos is that the tubular construction of the Hoyt's give them a much different look than the clean aesthetic of the Carbon Air. The tubes are why the Hoyt bows look arthritic. Some people love that tangled vine look, but our bow is looks like a modern secy piece of technology -- because it is.
> 
> ...


See , you missed my point. The Carbon Air looks nothing like the Oriental product Hoyt has been putting out. I posted those pics for the haters so we could all see the differences in riser geometry and limb configuration. 

Carry on.


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

I just seen a couple real pics of it and it looks 100x better in the pics.I think it's bad a**


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

Jaliv92 said:


> I just seen a couple real pics of it and it looks 100x better in the pics.I think it's bad a**


Where? Links?


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

deadduck357 said:


> Where? Links?


Facebook, At someone's shop.
I'll screenshot the pics


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## gwa2712 (Apr 28, 2013)

I never gave PSE a chance because I didn't like the look of their bows. I like the look of this bow however. Maybe its because I've shot Hoyt for years and in some ways it resembles a Hoyt with the bridged riser. I can't say that I would pay $1500 for one though. Maybe if I see one in the classifieds later this year at a good price I'll give it a try.


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## Dowatchalike66 (Sep 30, 2015)

Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

deadduck357 said:


> Where? Links?


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

I want to see one in person, probably won't matter for me as the draw is way to short, but my wife wants something lightweight like this. It is a little pricy, but American labor has to get paid a decent wage. Plus it does come with a case also, unless I'm reading something wrong. Hopefully it has a actual carbon pattern that you can see, that would be sexy.--BB


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

Jaliv92 said:


>


Thanks jaliv. Your right, looks even better in real pics.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

Jaliv92 said:


>


That's bad a**, knowing you Jav92 you have one on order yet?--BB


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## dhom (Jun 10, 2008)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.


Says the member since yesterday. Troll


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I would like an 80 Lbs one with FT cams or IC cams in Optifade forest.....


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes sir .


bigbucks170 said:


> I would like an 80 Lbs one with FT cams or IC cams in Optifade forest.....


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

Bourbon Boy said:


> That's bad a**, knowing you Jav92 you have one on order yet?--BB


Not yet man.I haven't shot a bow in months.I been chasing work around New Mexico and West Texas .
Very good chance I will when I get home though.I do love the smell of a new bow!!


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

I have the same addiction, and I've seen your other bows (on here), we both like nice toys!!! BB


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## w8indq (Dec 9, 2013)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.





dhom said:


> Says the member since yesterday. Troll


I'm guessing thenprince


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.


I won't be buying this bow, but I do greatly appreciate the design and engineering that went into this. Way too many people are harping on the bridged riser and material making this a Hoyt copy without ever shooting it. This bow has PSE written all over it with the limb geometry, which is the biggest thing that makes a PSE a PSE. I think if people give this bow an honest chance instead of bashing purely on looks it will be a strong success for PSE.


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## Dowatchalike66 (Sep 30, 2015)

mikehoyme said:


> I won't be buying this bow, but I do greatly appreciate the design and engineering that went into this. Way too many people are harping on the bridged riser and material making this a Hoyt copy without ever shooting it. This bow has PSE written all over it with the limb geometry, which is the biggest thing that makes a PSE a PSE. I think if people give this bow an honest chance instead of bashing purely on looks it will be a strong success for PSE.


How can you tell people to give it an honest chance when you said "I won't be buying this bow" ? Lol


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Jaliv92 said:


> Not yet man.I haven't shot a bow in months.I been chasing work around New Mexico and West Texas .
> Very good chance I will when I get home though.I do love the smell of a new bow!!


Funny stuff!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'm not traditionally a PSE fan, but I think the bow looks pretty good and I'm sure there will be a market for it. I'm not a fan of carbon risers, so I doubt I'll be interested in the PSE offering any more than I was the Hoyt carbon, but I would like to shoot one just so I can speak about it intelligently. 

I really don't see how anyone can claim it will be "great" or "horrible" until it's in the shops and people start actually shooting it.


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> How can you tell people to give it an honest chance when you said "I won't be buying this bow" ? Lol


I won't be buying it because it doesn't meet my requirements to replace what I am shooting right now, matter of fact no one makes the bow I want to throw my money at. I am out of the norm with what I want, this bow fits squarely into the specs of what a lot of people want. Just because I don't want it doesn't make it a bad bow, so I'm not going to get on the internet and knock it.


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## djm029 (Nov 5, 2012)

Nice looking bow!! But I just cant justify the price. May end up just buying a used 2015


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## Eric Gregg (Nov 8, 2013)

I like the look of the bow. Nice to see PSE going with carbon


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

From what I'm seeing, the price is way cheaper than some others. It does have titanium hardware-no rust and lightweight. A custom bow case is included. The True Carbon riser isn't a bunch of tubes epoxied together, they actually are filled inside with a vibration killing foam. I've shot Hoyt carbon bows, very nice, and dead in hand. This should be even better. ABB top of the line strings are also another nice feature. The case, Ti hardware, and string alone would cost you over $300 at least. Plus, it IS made here, my biggest gripe about Hoyt's carbon bows. I think they will sell, big time, think of it as a custom bow with all the trimmings already included. If I outfitted one of my Nitrums like this it would cost more.--BB


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## Bowhuntertim (Jun 4, 2006)

Has anyone mentioned what finishes it will be offered in or is it just black?


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

Pretty sure it's just black.


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## thebeav (Jul 1, 2005)

The catalog shows black, break up country and skulls.


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## RexS65 (Jan 1, 2014)

HAHA! Oh you guys and your Ford vs Chevy arguments are comical! They all make good bows! I've shot and owned them all. I like PSE and Hoyt as my top two picks. I've had Bowtechs I really liked although they've gotten so loud and heavy I haven't found one I like anymore but, I think they're good bows. When I go buy a new bow every year (or so) I try em' all the last 3 I've hunted with being Hoyt. I still think one of the best bows I ever owned was a PSE 2008, Short, fast, quiet, accurate! I gave it to my nephew and that bow still holds it's own! I would like very much (and will) try out one of these PSE carbon Bows! Looks pretty bad*** to me! With a 30" draw I should be able to get the max out of it! I like the dampening material idea although Carbon already does a great job of dampening vibration. My CS#) and CST are great bows though! 326fps outa my CST with 412gr arrow, no hand shock, quiet, lightweight! I love it. All matters what you like, what fits, and how well you shoot it!


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## ColoradoHunter (Nov 20, 2006)

Bowhuntertim said:


> Has anyone mentioned what finishes it will be offered in or is it just black?


The riser is black, Limbs have the option of black, country camo or skullworks 2.


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## Bowhuntertim (Jun 4, 2006)

thebeav said:


> The catalog shows black, break up country and skulls.





ColoradoHunter said:


> The riser is black, Limbs have the option of black, country camo or skullworks 2.


Thanks fellas.


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## thebeav (Jul 1, 2005)

Yes sorry guys here is a pic. The riser is black with options of mossy oak country or skulls on the limbs


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## lachypetersen22 (Oct 17, 2014)

Looks ugly and cool haha


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt.


I don't mind it at all, it's minimalist which doesn't automatically mean cheap. the designs are also similar because the carbon/epoxy matrial is only strong in compression and tension, not bending, so it's going to have to look similar for a bow with similar geometry.

it's also why we won't see a front mounted limb pocket carbon riser anytime soon.


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## Moosejaw (Oct 20, 2011)

i want to shoot it, even tho i havent owned a PSE in awhile. i do love shooting all the new bows every year from as many manufacturers as i can. i have a dream bow in mind and the closest thing to it is the darton 3800. i have made up my mind to hold out until one of the companies makes it or until i find some where to shoot a darton. to each their own. i hope these sell for PSE but i think $1500 is steep for a bow. $1000 is more than enough for a flagship bow.


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## c5mrr270 (Mar 3, 2009)

bigbucks170 said:


> I would like an 80 Lbs one with FT cams or IC cams in Optifade forest.....


Definitely like the 80# idea.


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## Eric Gregg (Nov 8, 2013)

I also like the fact they covered short draw shooters.
I could see this being a great 3d bow


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## little buddy (Dec 20, 2004)

Eric Gregg said:


> I also like the fact they covered short draw shooters.
> I could see this being a great 3d bow


I haven't seen the dl range. Anybody know what it is?


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

little buddy said:


> I haven't seen the dl range. Anybody know what it is?


24.5"-30.5"


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## little buddy (Dec 20, 2004)

Thanks mike


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## Extreme vft17 (Mar 29, 2007)

looks a whole lot better in the new pics.

I shoot a carbon element and really like it, now I am very interested in the new speed bow from Hoyt with the pre loaded limbs.

I have shot the z5 cam and really like it too. Once they start getting the PSE in may have too go at least look.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Anybody notice the 206 thousand speed nocks?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I did, but I'm not sure there's more of them, or more total weight, I just think they're spread out more


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## trucker3573 (Feb 14, 2010)

kdsberman said:


> I'm sure it'll be a sweet shooter, but to me it looks ugly.


Agree 100% and yet another spec sheet to go with the already over flooded short ATA market. Hope they release something else.


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## blance7 (Jan 11, 2012)

This thing is sooo ugly.. and the fact that its 100 more than the Hoyt carbon bows is about ridiculous. Not that 1399 for a hoyt carbon isn't a bit wild.


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## 2wheels1love (Mar 7, 2015)

Everyone will be jumping on the carbon wagon since Hoyts had good sales with their Carbon bows. I'm sure few years time all the manufacturers will have a Carbon bow that's always how it goes one company does something new and if it sells good everyone follows suit and try's to one up it, and so on an so on. Pretty standard in all manufacturing...


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

blance7 said:


> This thing is sooo ugly.. and the fact that its 100 more than the Hoyt carbon bows is about ridiculous. Not that 1399 for a hoyt carbon isn't a bit wild.


The manufacturing of his type of carbon construction is much more expensive. They are paying for totally different tooling. Takes longer. More labor intensive. 

I expect carbon monocoque construction will fall in the future because it is being used in so many industries.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

This thing looks fantastic. The Hoyt is by far the ugliest bow ever conceived - a bowel-like, entangled mess with an abstract design that lends nothing to integrity. ... to put it mildly.


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## thebeav (Jul 1, 2005)

It comes with a bow case, abb platinum strings and just those two things alone would cost 150/200.00. I can't wait to shoot it


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

thebeav said:


> It comes with a bow case, abb platinum strings and just those two things alone would cost 150/200.00. I can't wait to shoot it


What if I already have a case and shoot my own strings?.....PSE going to give a discount for what I don't want/need?
Beside that you can't count the bowstring at full value....only the difference in cost between ABB string and whatever else they normally use....probably not much at all at bulk pricing


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

nestly said:


> What if I already have a case and shoot my own strings?.....PSE going to give a discount for what I don't want/need?
> Beside that you can't count the bowstring at full value....only the difference in cost between ABB string and whatever else they normally use....probably not much at all at bulk pricing


No. Why would they? Does any other bow company give discounts if you shoot your own strings?


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree 100%


Mr-Mike said:


> This thing looks fantastic. The Hoyt is by far the ugliest bow ever conceived - a bowel-like, entangled mess with an abstract design that lends nothing to integrity. ... to put it mildly.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

You sir are clueless


blance7 said:


> This thing is sooo ugly.. and the fact that its 100 more than the Hoyt carbon bows is about ridiculous. Not that 1399 for a hoyt carbon isn't a bit wild.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

Mr-Mike said:


> This thing looks fantastic. The Hoyt is by far the ugliest bow ever conceived - a bowel-like, entangled mess with an abstract design that lends nothing to integrity. ... to put it mildly.


PLUS, the Carbon Air is made in the good ol' USA!!!


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## thebeav (Jul 1, 2005)

if you don't think the Abb strings are better or more of a value then the old black and white Pse strings then something's wrong. This bow is not made for somebody on a budget it is high end material with high end components and accessories. I don't think this bow is for everyone but it's available for those that want it and it definitely fits well in the Pse line.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I have no first hand experience to say how ABB strings compare to what PSE normally uses... All I'm saying is that you can't use the upgrades and accessories to justify the additional price, because lets be honest... PSE isn't giving that stuff away out of the kindness in their hearts... it's a way to extract even more money from those already paying a premium price.


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## GB3YO (Mar 24, 2013)

Ugliest bow in history


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## Cjclemens (Aug 20, 2013)

GB3YO said:


> Ugliest bow in history


Can't say I agree with that. It's got clean simple lines. Not particularly interesting, but far from ugly. There are some Martins and basically the whole Hoyt lineup look like they got beat with the ugly stick way worse. Seriously, Hoyt's China carbon risers look like a couple snakes copulating. At least the paint will stick to the PSE.


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm glad a lot don't like it then I won't half to wait so long to get mine.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

Scottie/PA said:


> PLUS, the Carbon Air is made in the good ol' USA!!!


X2 , I bet it shoots nice , it's overpriced but they all are . May be my next bow looks great !


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## Hammer 1 (Nov 7, 2009)

Waiting to see what Elite brings out but I really like this bow!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Cool bow. True story. lain:


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## GB3YO (Mar 24, 2013)

Cjclemens said:


> Can't say I agree with that. It's got clean simple lines. Not particularly interesting, but far from ugly. There are some Martins and basically the whole Hoyt lineup look like they got beat with the ugly stick way worse. Seriously, Hoyt's China carbon risers look like a couple snakes copulating. At least the paint will stick to the PSE.


OK I restract my statement have seen uglier bows its just boring no i eye appeal for me.


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

lee31 said:


> The real question is has anyone from PSE run it over with a truck yet ? Like Hoyt did with there bow . Everyone knows that's how you test Carbon bows


LOL. I hear ya, but I'm in no place to criticize someone else for creative marketing.

Just for fun, we actually did run over it with a truck. A bunch of times. But it was just the engineers testing it and having fun with it. The bow will sell on the tech and how it shoots.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

jpittm2 said:


> I like the look..... I spent $1400 on my Kestrel, so $1500 for a new PSE is worth it to me....For me, it's not about what I need....It's all about the "WANT". sign me up for camo riser black limbs.


Thanks man. Just a solid black riser this year, though camo limbs are available. We will be able to put other finishes on this in the future, however.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

jpittm2 said:


> Don, is there any chance that PSE will be shipping these sooner than December???? would love to be able to get one in the woods this season for some S.W Michigan Bow hunting in Sweet November


It's possible, but unlikely. The December estimate is based on the current timeline, but things can always change.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

masterchef said:


> All ugly all too expensive to justify.


Check it out in person then tell me what you think. You might just change your mind.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

BARBWIRE said:


> I like it.Looks much cleaner than the Hoyt.I really am digging the new line up from PSE.


Thanks, man. The clean look is something we're proud of. It looks even better in person.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

AR&BOW said:


> Not this Hoyt guy. I thought tge PSE was ugly at first sight, but I really kind of like it now just like I like the Hoyt carbon. I just love tge feel of a darbon riser and the PSE is probably great. I love Hoyt's because I have always shot them best and never a single complaint. When the carbon PSE grows in length I will give it a try.


Hoyt makes a fine bow, and if they've earned your loyalty the better for them. We think the Carbon Air is the best carbon bow on the market for various reasons, but I respect your brand loyalty. Hopefully you'll shoot a PSE Carbon Bow in the future (sounds like you either like or need a longer bow) and let us know.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

4IDARCHER said:


> I love Hoyts as well but would challenge anyone to shoot a Decree HD against a Z5 and tell me the HD cams aren't smoother and easier to pull at any given draw weight.
> 
> The cams on the DNA were far from forgiving, but those HD cams are completely different and make the decree HD the "easiest" pulling bow since the Chill X, only with 20 fps gain in speed.


The HD cams really are amazingly smooth. When the Decree HD hit last year the response was phenomenal. That's when we knew we had to put them on the Carbon Air. 

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## FIB (Jul 25, 2008)

PSE DG when will the Carbon Air be made available in LH?


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Bowhunter328 said:


> Here's what I felt like when I saw the Carbon Air video for the first time.


Friggin' awesome!

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

blance7 said:


> This thing is sooo ugly.. and the fact that its 100 more than the Hoyt carbon bows is about ridiculous. Not that 1399 for a hoyt carbon isn't a bit wild.


Lets see...it is made of a superior type of carbon construction, it has superior titanium hardware, it has superior premium strings and cables, and it is made here in the USA instead of China like the Hoyt carbon bows, and its design wont cause arrow rest fitment issues with some rests like the Hoyts...gee that extra $100 really does sound ridiculous (for Hoyt)


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Bourbon Boy said:


> I like the new bow, much cleaner design than Hoyt's, but no long draw models? I need a 32". My only question, won't the cable slide slam into the back of the riser? --BB


Not yet...but like I mentioned before, this is an important platform for us moving forward so there will be new iterations coming in future lines.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Lets put this up front for him again



FIB said:


> PSE DG when will the Carbon Air be made available in LH?


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Crow Terminator said:


> The limbs look more preloaded to me than the Hoyts and the limb pocket geometry is also pretty different between the two. I see a lot of differences between them and don't see the clone some have claimed to see.
> 
> Who care who invented what? Karl Benz is credited for inventing the automobile but Henry Ford made it better, massed produced it, and therefore made it affordable for more people.


They are...and I agree completely with your example...but that being said, Hoyt didn't invent the carbon bow or the bridged riser...and this bow is the first with the full arch design. 

The design of the any hollow carbon bow will be similar because of how you need to engineer for certain stress points, which is why there is some shape similarity. But the actual aesthetic of the bow is completely different, and when consumers see it in person they will notice just how different it really is. Not to mention the fact that the monocoque construction and S-RAC make this a much different animal than what Hoyt is making.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

573mms said:


> That would be a carbon matrix, this is a carbon element. Maybe in a couple years they will come out with a carbon spyder!


So, how is this bow constructed like a Hoyt? Do you see any carbon tubing on our bow? What about the proprietary S-RAC core? Is that there too? Are the Hoyt's lighter, stronger, more stable? 

I'm happy to hear all that criticism, so fire away. 

All hollow carbon bows will have some similarity in the shape because of how they need to be engineered....stress points....yadda yadda. But outside of a general shape similarity the differences between the two bows is a stark one. Go into a store, check one out, and if you feel the same way get back to me.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

573mms said:


> A 84lb pse feals better than a 61lb hoyt, everybody knows your a fanboy now!


So the Hoyt avatar and your dismissal of the Carbon Air as "copying Hoyt" isn't fanboy-ish at all? :wink:

Seriously though, go check out a Carbon Air when they hit stores and tell us what you think. We'd appreciate your feedback.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

It looks like an awesome bow


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

blance7 said:


> This thing is sooo ugly.. and the fact that its 100 more than the Hoyt carbon bows is about ridiculous. Not that 1399 for a hoyt carbon isn't a bit wild.


Personally, not even as a rep from the company, I like the clean look. 

My response the first time I spotted a Hoyt carbon bow was not a positive one -- but there are people who love them. I also don't really care for the Mathews egg crate look either, but some people really love it. To each his own. 

But I think the Carbon Air is really sleek and refined looking. Far superior to other carbon bows. That being said, I know some people just don't dig the look of carbon bows generally. 

There are good reasons it's $100 more outside of the case and the strings. The Carbon Air is really loaded when you consider technology v. price.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

jorkep said:


> The manufacturing of his type of carbon construction is much more expensive. They are paying for totally different tooling. Takes longer. More labor intensive.
> 
> I expect carbon monocoque construction will fall in the future because it is being used in so many industries.


Agreed on both counts.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Mr-Mike said:


> This thing looks fantastic. The Hoyt is by far the ugliest bow ever conceived - a bowel-like, entangled mess with an abstract design that lends nothing to integrity. ... to put it mildly.


Those were definitely issues we looked at when examining existing carbon bows. Especially when it comes to the integrity and stability of a bow platform. This is why we invested the time and money (lots of both) into fixing what we perceived as weaknesses. The carbon tubing and fusing on the Hoyt's give them a very unique look, but also can make for problems. Some people love the look of the Hoyts, but I think the Carbon Air is a heck of a lot more appealing.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

PSE DG

Did you see the LH question? Is this going to be another long wait like the LH Supras??


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

0nepin said:


> I agree 100%


Thanks brother -- we think people will be more impressed when they see it in person. Already opinions are starting to change just from people seeing photos of the bow at different angles.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## jpittm2 (Jul 1, 2013)

Donn, thanks for the reply.... My buddy here in S.W Michigan is a PSE dealer and I told him I would like one ASAP. Black Riser and Camo limbs is perfect.


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## Noise (Jan 26, 2014)

Foam cores or similar are very common in carbon constructions, especialy if you want to create a monocoque. So nothing revolutionary there. From my point of view its got a sleek look, on the other hand there are surprisingly vew crossing structures. The bridge with the short guard looks interesting in terms of torque. I am interested in pics which show how much its offset to the grip.

Keep em coming


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## jpittm2 (Jul 1, 2013)

Are there any vids of bow being shot????


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Is a bike company making the risers?


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

nestly said:


> I have no first hand experience to say how ABB strings compare to what PSE normally uses... All I'm saying is that you can't use the upgrades and accessories to justify the additional price, because lets be honest... PSE isn't giving that stuff away out of the kindness in their hearts... it's a way to extract even more money from those already paying a premium price.


I respect your opinion, but there is some faulty logic being used here. Based on your premise we should take a premium bow and give it lower line accessories to reduce cost? So then how do we respond to people who say "PSE is charging $1200 for that bow and putting crappy strings and backstops on it."? Do we tell them we could've charged $1500, but decided so skimp on all the feature accessories and strings? 

Or the other option is to just give that stuff away, which would effectively kill our margins enough to put us out of business.

Putting premium feature accessories, strings and cables on a bow raises the cost....it's just that simple. 

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


----------



## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Noise said:


> Foam cores or similar are very common in carbon constructions, especialy if you want to create a monocoque. So nothing revolutionary there. From my point of view its got a sleek look, on the other hand there are surprisingly vew crossing structures. The bridge with the short guard looks interesting in terms of torque. I am interested in pics which show how much its offset to the grip.
> 
> Keep em coming


Care to elaborate on the 'torque' comment? Why would the arch/bridge have anything to do with it?


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

FIB said:


> PSE DG when will the Carbon Air be made available in LH?


Are you asking me if it is available in Left-handed, or when we start shipping them?

The Carbon Air will be in both LH and RH

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## Fafnir (Sep 21, 2014)

Hey PSE DG, will this ever come left handed?
Never mind, just saw your comment, nice that it'll be available in both.


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

ChuckA84 said:


> Lets see...it is made of a superior type of carbon construction, it has superior titanium hardware, it has superior premium strings and cables, and it is made here in the USA instead of China like the Hoyt carbon bows, and its design wont cause arrow rest fitment issues with some rests like the Hoyts...gee that extra $100 really does sound ridiculous (for Hoyt)


I like the way you think, sir!

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Will Left and Right Handed be shipping at the same time?



PSE_DG said:


> Are you asking me if it is available in Left-handed, or when we start shipping them?
> 
> The Carbon Air will be in both LH and RH
> 
> ...


----------



## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

Noise said:


> Foam cores or similar are very common in carbon constructions, especialy if you want to create a monocoque. So nothing revolutionary there. From my point of view its got a sleek look, on the other hand there are surprisingly vew crossing structures. The bridge with the short guard looks interesting in terms of torque. I am interested in pics which show how much its offset to the grip.
> 
> Keep em coming


I dunno, no one else was making monocoque-constructed bows before now, and you sounds like you might now what you are talking about so you know how much the could benefit a bow platform.

Yes, foam cores are common, but we designed ours specifically to suppress vibration as well. Again -- never done in archery.

So all in all I think it's a pretty revolutionary step-up. We expect other companies to follow suit here.

We like the sleek look as well; just wait until you shoot it. 

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

jpittm2 said:


> Are there any vids of bow being shot????


We were working on some this week. Keep an eye out. 

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> Is a bike company making the risers?


Maybe...

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## Noise (Jan 26, 2014)

There is no direct connection between the guard and the riser. Depending on the torsional strength of the bridge it might be able to reduce / influence how torque affects the riser ....


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## PSE_DG (Aug 21, 2015)

ex-wolverine said:


> PSE DG
> 
> Did you see the LH question? Is this going to be another long wait like the LH Supras??


I thought I responded, but maybe I missed it.

As to when LH are shipping, I'm not 100% since that's not part of my day to day. I assume some LH will ship when the RH start shipping, but I'm not sure what the production plan is. I know we don't want people to wait so it's a priority. I'll see if I can get an answer to that question.

Donn Green
PSE Marketing


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

Is there any pictures that give a good view of the grip (width, angle)? One of the main reasons I am a big PSE fan is because of the BEST grip and I was wondering how close these two are to each other.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

PSE_DG said:


> I respect your opinion, but there is some faulty logic being used here. Based on your premise we should take a premium bow and give it lower line accessories to reduce cost? So then how do we respond to people who say "PSE is charging $1200 for that bow and putting crappy strings and backstops on it."? Do we tell them we could've charged $1500, but decided so skimp on all the feature accessories and strings?


I think you kinda missed the context. Someone mentioned the bow case and ABB string as being equivalent to $150-200 of the bow price and justification for why the bow is $200 more than it's nearest competitor. If you're putting ABB strings on your premium bows, then yeah, it doesn't make sense for the CA to have a "lesser" quality string, but it doesn't add anywhere near $150 -200 to the cost either. As far as the bow case, that's purely and accessory that has nothing to do with the performance of the bow and something that not everyone wants/needs... yet they have to pay for it on top of an already steep price tag. I'm not saying you should give anything away, just don't make people pay for a bow and case when all they really want/need is the bow.


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## loveha (Mar 11, 2014)

If only the AtA was 35"+. Then I would have bought it. Maybe next year...


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

PSE_DG said:


> I dunno, no one else was making monocoque-constructed bows before now, and you sounds like you might now what you are talking about so you know how much the could benefit a bow platform.
> 
> Yes, foam cores are common, but we designed ours specifically to suppress vibration as well. Again -- never done in archery.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the posts Donn. I got a call from Jimmy L. as he was about to board his plane back to GA. Can't wait to shoot one of these. A great majority of the "lookalike" guys weren't even born when the first bridged riser recurve came out, and most don't remember 1993 and 1996.....it may be more $, but there's a lot of technology in that bow. Most don't realize it.....


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

Is the bow capable of heavier draw weights? I know of at least two guys that would like one if it pushed 85+ pounds. I know back in 2003/04 when I was buying an AR34 I asked about heavier limbs and was told the riser could not handle more than 70 lb limbs. FWIW I did not read all 8 pages so this may have been asked already. I'll go do that now.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

nestly said:


> I think you kinda missed the context. Someone mentioned the bow case and ABB string as being equivalent to $150-200 of the bow price and justification for why the bow is $200 more than it's nearest competitor. If you're putting ABB strings on your premium bows, then yeah, it doesn't make sense for the CA to have a "lesser" quality string, but it doesn't add anywhere near $150 -200 to the cost either. As far as the bow case, that's purely and accessory that has nothing to do with the performance of the bow and something that not everyone wants/needs... yet they have to pay for it on top of an already steep price tag. I'm not saying you should give anything away, just don't make people pay for a bow and case when all they really want/need is the bow.


ABB Platinum strings are $139.99 in Lancaster Archery's catalog. Titanium bolts aren't cheap, it's up to you if you think they are needed. My Hoyt case was on sale for $140. The Mathews TRG ($1799) and Wake ($1699) can be had cheaper than MSRP, but for a aluminum riser that really isn't much different than the others in their line up? I won't argue with anyone about it being expensive, it is, but for all the actual technology they put into this-it isn't. It's not a simple copy of Hoyt's bow, or Winn & Winn's carbon bows. And it definitely isn't a plastic composite with some carbon in it formed in a mold, like another company does. I can't wait until the longer ATA version comes out in longer draw lengths, I will get one. --BB


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## NYS Archer (Nov 9, 2012)

Looks like a Hoyt carbon whatever with a couple of carbon tubes missing...Hardly "revolutionary"


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

I keep looking at this bow and can't decide if it's elegant or odd... I need to see one in person. I know the HD cam is one of the smoothest cams I've ever shot, so it should be a great hunting bow.
As for all the people complaining about the price, carbon is not cheap...look at the Hoyt Carbon line. Not to mention this process is likely outsourced to another American company (I bet the bicycle company was named in this thread), not shipped from overseas like the other brand named in this thread (France or Italy I cannot remember which). 
The price is what it is.... If it's too steep then they have an update decree ic and HD with the titanium kit (or at least that's the way it appears online) 
By the way, those of you acting like people won't pay that price for a bow are crazy... Look at how many Hoyt Carbons are sold each year... Look at how many TRGs and Wakes Mathews sold this year... There is another market that both those companies are tapping into... I don't blame PSE for going after it....


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

Less tubes equals a stronger riser and materials, simple as that.--BB


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## xhammer23 (Dec 25, 2014)

This bow puts all other carbon bows to shame in looks and if it shoots as good as it looks I want one.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

ex-wolverine said:


> Will Left and Right Handed be shipping at the same time?


I was told the lefties are a LONG way out, as in the Spring.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

loveha said:


> If only the AtA was 35"+. Then I would have bought it. Maybe next year...


make it 38" for the target crowd and people would flock to it in droves. I shoot Hoyt and Mathews at the moment and I'd drop both in a heartbeat for one.


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## Blackout CE (Jan 23, 2012)

Looks like Confederate MC- PSE bow 

Love the concept and i think its a great looking bow


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

caspian said:


> make it 38" for the target crowd and people would flock to it in droves. I shoot Hoyt and Mathews at the moment and I'd drop both in a heartbeat for one.


Target bows are a small portion of bow sales. Hunting bows is the market majority. How much of the hunting market is willing to spend $1,500 - who knows.


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## nvcnvc (Jan 27, 2009)

NYS Archer said:


> Looks like a Hoyt carbon whatever with a couple of carbon tubes missing...Hardly "revolutionary"


If it is really a monocoque construction, and I have no reason to doubt that, then it definitely is unique in archery. Monocoque construction ensures that the stresses are distributed on the surface skin 
which makes the construction much stiffer. It is almost guaranteed that there will be no riser bending under full load. However, the process is timing consuming and expensive. $1500 is actually very reasonable.


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## nvcnvc (Jan 27, 2009)

deadduck357 said:


> Target bows are a small portion of bow sales. Hunting bows is the market majority. How much of the hunting market is willing to spend $1,500 - who knows.



I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.


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## loveha (Mar 11, 2014)

The process and construction to me is worth it, although within that price is that stupid case. Could care less about it. That is probably $100 right here.


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## kdog23 (Jan 30, 2012)

nvcnvc said:


> I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.


At the same time most deticated hunters are not easily tracked down for a survey and would not be easily connected to AS A. How was the survey done and how did they determine the sample?


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## K&K (Aug 10, 2010)

Hope it works out better than their first attempt.


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## nvcnvc (Jan 27, 2009)

kdog23 said:


> At the same time most deticated hunters are not easily tracked down for a survey and would not be easily connected to AS A. How was the survey done and how did they determine the sample?


Here is the protocol...
*******************
The telephone survey questionnaire was developed cooperatively by Responsive Management and the ATA. Responsive Management conducted pre-tests of the questionnaire to ensure proper wording, flow, and logic in the survey. The sampling methodology entailed random digit dialing, which ensures that all telephone numbers have an equal chance of being called, and the sample included both landlines and cell phones. The scientific sampling plan entailed obtaining a target number of interviews in each state so that the number of respondents in each state in the sample would be exactly proportional to the state’s population within the United States population as a whole. The sample was representative of all Americans 18 years old and older. The survey was conducted in January and February 2013. Responsive Management obtained 8,335 completed interviews. The analysis of data was performed using Statistical Package for the Social Sciences as well as proprietary software developed by Responsive Management.
Among United States residents as a whole, 8.0% participated in archery in 2012. The Midwest had the highest overall participation rate.
****************************************
here is the link http://www.archerytrade.org/uploads/documents/ATA_Participation_2013_Report_FINAL.pdf

my mistake, I said ASA, but I meant to say it was done by ATA.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

nvcnvc said:


> Here is the protocol...
> *******************
> The telephone survey questionnaire was developed cooperatively by Responsive Management and the ATA. Responsive Management conducted pre-tests of the questionnaire to ensure proper wording, flow, and logic in the survey. The sampling methodology entailed random digit dialing, which ensures that all telephone numbers have an equal chance of being called, and the sample included both landlines and cell phones. The scientific sampling plan entailed obtaining a target number of interviews in each state so that the number of respondents in each state in the sample would be exactly proportional to the state’s population within the United States population as a whole. The sample was representative of all Americans 18 years old and older. The survey was conducted in January and February 2013. Responsive Management obtained 8,335 completed interviews. The analysis of data was performed using Statistical Package for the Social Sciences as well as proprietary software developed by Responsive Management.
> Among United States residents as a whole, 8.0% participated in archery in 2012. The Midwest had the highest overall participation rate.
> ...


You know how many of those type of surveys I get every year? Not just archery or hunting related... I hang up on all of them. Lol 
Statistics using such a tiny sample are skewed..... 8000 interviews doesn't even scratch the surface...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

deadduck357 said:


> Target bows are a small portion of bow sales. Hunting bows is the market majority. How much of the hunting market is willing to spend $1,500 - who knows.


a sad reality I have had to deal with for a few years now, unfortunately.



nvcnvc said:


> I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.


sorry, but Hoyt reps themselves have confirmed in public that target bows account for single digit percentages of their sales.

no way hunters spend more on a bow than a target shoot either. my stabs cost me close to $1000 alone.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

nvcnvc said:


> I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.


I'm just going off what the bow companies themselves have stated with regards to bow sales. Not sure how the ASA compiles their survey numbers.


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## nvcnvc (Jan 27, 2009)

Ryjax said:


> You know how many of those type of surveys I get every year? Not just archery or hunting related... I hang up on all of them. Lol
> Statistics using such a tiny sample are skewed..... 8000 interviews doesn't even scratch the surface...


The margin of error in the study was 1.07%. You only need 1000 responders to accurately represent the whole US population at the 95% confidence level with a +-3% error. 
If you know of any other published surveys of the same nature, please share. It would be interesting to make comparisons with results from previous years.


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## nvcnvc (Jan 27, 2009)

deadduck357 said:


> I'm just going off what the bow companies themselves have stated with regards to bow sales. Not sure how the ASA compiles their survey numbers.



It was actually ATA...ASA was a misprint. See link above for the whole study.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

nvcnvc said:


> The margin of error in the study was 1.07%. You only need 1000 responders to accurately represent the whole US population at the 95% confidence level with a +-3% error.
> If you know of any other published surveys of the same nature, please share. It would be interesting to make comparisons with results from previous years.


Again Statistics are great but they don't always tell the whole story. 
You call all the big manufacturers and ask which group makes up the largest percentage of their sales, and strictly target sales are less than 10%.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

nvcnvc said:


> I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.



I have been in the business for 8 years now. My target bow sales make up less than 5% of my bow sales. Something doesn't seem right with those numbers.


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

Interesting. I guess that would mean that every bow shop I have ever been in is under stocked on target bows and way over stocked on hunting bows



Can we go back to discussing the bow now?


I like the concept of it. And in general over the last several years pse has been less expensive than most bow companies. Even the xpression this year is price pointed less than the competition. I am not fully sold on the look though. Have to see it in person. I too am curious about the grip. As for draw, i'm just speculating, probably the same as the source hd. Maybe a touch smoother due to flex slide. With the cost being high though, I will not be just ordering one like I do every year. I'd like to get it in my hands and get the full feel of it before passing judgement



I do think it's hilarious though how everyone knows so much about it from some pics and specs


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## tialloydragon (Mar 14, 2013)

I can't help but notice that the string stop "rod" is not a separate piece from the riser. 

I don't see a whole lot of posts about string stops breaking, but but I'd hate to have to replace the whole bow if it snapped off.


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## backdoc972 (Jul 27, 2015)

A bit out of my league, but I think it looks amazing and the price for what it is seems pretty fair. I just bought a decree hd (that I have yet to shoot...grrr, hurry up pro shop...) so I'm tapped out, but this technology will eventually trickle down the line. I am definitely a pse fan!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

nvcnvc said:


> If it is really a monocoque construction, and I have no reason to doubt that, then it definitely is unique in archery. Monocoque construction ensures that the stresses are distributed on the surface skin
> which makes the construction much stiffer. It is almost guaranteed that there will be no riser bending under full load. However, the process is timing consuming and expensive. $1500 is actually very reasonable.


People should be more critical of marketing terms and gimmicks.

Hoyt carbon riser could also be considered "monocoque", infact by definition, it most certainly is.
"monocoque" construction by itself in no way ensures "no bending", infact bow risers (including PSE's) are engineered to flex/bend.
PSE's riser may or may not be more time consuming than competitors. Pretty sure no one (and I mean NO ONE) in this topic has been inside both factories that produce both types of carbon risers to dispute that objectively.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

How can someone be so wrong ? Hoyt riser is not monocoque !!!!!!!


nestly said:


> People should be more critical of marketing terms and gimmicks.
> 
> Hoyt carbon riser could also be considered "monocoque", infact by definition, it most certainly is.
> "monocoque" construction by itself in no way ensures "no bending", infact bow risers (including PSE's) are engineered to flex/bend.
> PSE's riser may or may not be more time consuming than competitors. Pretty sure no one (and I mean NO ONE) in this topic has been inside both factories that produce both types of carbon risers to dispute that objectively.


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

0nepin said:


> How can someone be so wrong ? Hoyt riser is not monocoque !!!!!!!


It's the Internet. People are wrong more often than not. It isn't just an AT thing.

While this bow is considerably more than I'm willing to spend on a bow I will be hounding the two local PSE dealers until they get one in so I can check it out first hand. Wondering what, if any performance can be gained with a set of Hf cams on it.....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

0nepin said:


> How can someone be so wrong ? Hoyt riser is not monocoque !!!!!!!


You might look up the definition of "monocoque" rather than making an assumption or relying on PSE marketing... it's not even a concept exclusive to carbon fiber.

Just to be clear, I think the PSE riser is both visually appealing and generally a good design and will likely be copied in the near future, but I evaluate it on it's actual merit, not it's marketing. Filling the riser core with foam to add both strength and vibration reduction is a fine idea, but hardly a new concept, even within the archery industry. Hoyt was doing it in the 80-90's with "Syntactic foam". Same idea... different application. Kudos to PSE for getting into the Carbon market, time will tell how well they'll do.... not the predictions of those who haven't even laid hands on it.


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## PT1911 (Oct 23, 2008)

tialloydragon said:


> I can't help but notice that the string stop "rod" is not a separate piece from the riser.
> 
> I don't see a whole lot of posts about string stops breaking, but but I'd hate to have to replace the whole bow if it snapped off.


Wow, I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it! Can't say I'm a fan of that at all. Heck, sometimes I like taking the string stop off when I'm working on the bow because it gets in the damn way! Lol


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## KimberTac1911 (Feb 27, 2012)

Scottie/PA said:


> I have been in the business for 8 years now. My target bow sales make up less than 5% of my bow sales. Something doesn't seem right with those numbers.


Im with you. If it was for the world i would believe it. Many of the European countries cant bow hunt


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Air Throttle... Inertia Air.. Air Force ...HF all would be cool....with a sick Camo pattern ...I know i will be rocking one, the American made version of the Carbon bow yes please


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## AZBIG1 (Feb 4, 2015)

Got to hold one yesterday. Pics don't do it justice. Could have shot it but my 33" draw thing........
Don't think anyone will be disappointed.


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

nvcnvc said:


> I am afraid I have to disagree that hunting bows are the market majority. In a 2013 survey of about 8000 archers around the country, done by ASA, only 15% of archers are strictly hunters. 55% are strictly target archers. It is true that hunters spend big money for their bows though, much more than target archers. The ASA website has a link for the survey results if anyone is interested.


I don't really believe that survey is accurate....at all. According to it, the majority are target archers only, and the majority only shoot 1-5 days. Myself and the people I know who shoot target archery shoot that many days a week. The shop I go to sold two or three target bows last year. The hunting bow inventory was fresh every week it seemed like.


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

As far as the Carbon air, still like it. First PSE I have wanted to shoot. Shot a friends omen pro once, that wasn't a good time.


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

FIB said:


> I wonder where PSE's riser is made? I know my Hoyt CE riser was made in China and I've never been too happy about that.


Hopefully they are made in China as 95% of the world's CF products are made there. They have by far the most experience and expertise as well as the most advanced equipment for CF. If it were made in USA the price would be 3x this.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

iceman14 said:


> I don't really believe that survey is accurate....at all. According to it, the majority are target archers only, and the majority only shoot 1-5 days. Myself and the people I know who shoot target archery shoot that many days a week. The shop I go to sold two or three target bows last year. The hunting bow inventory was fresh every week it seemed like.


What is meaningful is what the vendors are selling and what the manufacturers making - far more hunting than target. The polling sample likely reached primarily target shooters do ease of access through affiliations, clubs, competitions and the likes. Hunters don't need to congregate to do their thing.


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

Ray knight said:


> Hopefully they are made in China as 95% of the world's CF products are made there. They have by far the most experience and expertise as well as the most advanced equipment for CF. If it were made in USA the price would be 3x this.


You will be sorely disappointed then because the PSE guy already stated in this thread on page 2 "The good 'ol US of A

Donn Green
PSE Markeing" and yet they aren't going to cost 3X's what you are expecting.


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

Ray knight said:


> Hopefully they are made in China as 95% of the world's CF products are made there. They have by far the most experience and expertise as well as the most advanced equipment for CF. If it were made in USA the price would be 3x this.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hoyt getting their carbon risers made in China. Go check out the carbon frames on high end bicycles. All made in China.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Cold Weather said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hoyt getting their carbon risers made in China. Go check out the carbon frames on high end bicycles. All made in China.


Nothing wrong at all. It's a common business strategy. But, if you think for a second that China's workmanship, quality control, materials and regulations are are even close to that in the US you are a fool. Not to mention the importance in having accessibility to the manufacturing plant and process by PSE design engineer leaders.


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## bry181 (May 20, 2015)

FIB said:


> I wonder where PSE's riser is made? I know my Hoyt CE riser was made in China and I've never been too happy about that.


Made in USA


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

Scottie/PA said:


> PLUS, the Carbon Air is made in the good ol' USA!!!


Time will tell.

Hoyt had this claim, had everyone believing it also. Come to find out, it is assembled in the USA.

Like I said..... Time will tell. (just sayin")


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## Toddk31 (Feb 11, 2007)

Hoythunter01 said:


> Time will tell.
> 
> Hoyt had this claim, had everyone believing it also. Come to find out, it is assembled in the USA.
> 
> Like I said..... Time will tell. (just sayin")



Just because Hoyt are liars doesn't mean PSE is. Pretty sure Hoyts head of marketing didn't come on here and state made in USA like the PSE guy did.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Toddk31 said:


> Just because Hoyt are liars doesn't mean PSE is. Pretty sure Hoyts head of marketing didn't come on here and state made in USA like the PSE guy did.


PSE's head of marketing would have been fired if he would have, still don't mean its not! He said the bow was made in the USA, not all the materials. He also wouldn't deny it came from a bike manufacturer, whick probably is in china or at the very least gets their materials from their.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

573mms said:


> PSE's head of marketing would have been fired if he would have, still don't mean its not! He said the bow was made in the USA, not all the materials. He also wouldn't deny it came from a bike manufacturer, whick probably is in china or at the very least gets their materials from their.


He actually said the riser was made in USA. That is the bow part that was questioned.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

Toddk31 said:


> Just because Hoyt are liars doesn't mean PSE is. Pretty sure Hoyts head of marketing didn't come on here and state made in USA like the PSE guy did.


Yeah, because we all know that Pete Sheply would never engage in anything of questionable ethic. Just like he would never be so desperate to sell bows that he would make an ass of himself by copying a complete Mathews bow. I lost respect and faith in PSE's engineering capability after that ridiculous fiasco and this is coming from a guy who thinks Mathews Solo Cam bows suck!


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr-Mike said:


> Nothing wrong at all. It's a common business strategy. But, if you think for a second that China's workmanship, quality control, materials and regulations are are even close to that in the US you are a fool. Not to mention the importance in having accessibility to the manufacturing plant and process by PSE design engineer leaders.


Not saying they're on par with the U.S, but they're not as bad as you think. They've gotten a lot better. Most of the bad rep they get for poor quality control has to do with knockoff parts. There's tons of stuff we use everyday that come out of China, specifically electronics, and no one here could tell the difference in quality from one cell phone or television to the next. Cheap knockoffs is where the quality takes a huge dive.


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

Mr-Mike said:


> Nothing wrong at all. It's a common business strategy. But, if you think for a second that China's workmanship, quality control, materials and regulations are are even close to that in the US you are a fool. Not to mention the importance in having accessibility to the manufacturing plant and process by PSE design engineer leaders.


China's quality is dependent on the client. If the client only accepts top quality they will build it top quality. And they will charge more accordingly. Look at your smartphone for example. Where do you think its made? Look at high end bicycle frames. Way nicer carbon fiber work than any carbon bow i've seen and made in China.


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

Bnbfishin said:


> You will be sorely disappointed then because the PSE guy already stated in this thread on page 2 "The good 'ol US of A
> 
> Donn Green
> PSE Markeing" and yet they aren't going to cost 3X's what you are expecting.


Made by who in USA? Thats the question. A USA carbon parts maker that produces in China perhaps? Not too many USA companies specializing in Carbon Fiber! Especially at low cost.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Ray knight said:


> Made by who in USA? Thats the question. A USA carbon parts maker that produces in China perhaps? Not too many USA companies specializing in Carbon Fiber! Especially at low cost.


There is a bicycle company that specialize in carbon fiber....but I cannot remember the name. It's definitely not low cost though which is why the bow MSRPs for $1500. Look at Hoyts Carbon line. I have heard that their risers were made in France or Italy (cannot remember which) by a tennis racket company that specializes in carbon fiber. Thus the price is comparable. Even if it were made in China at a high quality it would probably still fall in the same price range. Like you said previously, the Chinese outsourcing price and quality depends on the buyers demands. I'm sure we are all familiar to what has been said about the Apple "Facility" in China.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Ray knight said:


> Made by who in USA? Thats the question. A USA carbon parts maker that produces in China perhaps? Not too many USA companies specializing in Carbon Fiber! Especially at low cost.


Oh and another point... You can take something from overseas, "significantly" alter the product and still legally put "Made in the USA" on it....


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## pman (Jan 16, 2009)

This concern may have been broached already... Will the bridge affect the function of a QAD rest cord?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Ray knight said:


> Hopefully they are made in China as 95% of the world's CF products are made there. They have by far the most experience and expertise as well as the most advanced equipment for CF. If it were made in USA the price would be 3x this.


that is probably unfortunately the case. and will continue to be so until:

(1) Joe Average archer accepts that a carbon bow costs more because it is more expensive to make
(2) he also accepts that a carbon bow is worth the extra cost
(3) manufacturers stop protecting their investment in legacy technologies and manufacturing practices and move on.



> China's quality is dependent on the client. If the client only accepts top quality they will build it top quality. And they will charge more accordingly. Look at your smartphone for example. Where do you think its made? Look at high end bicycle frames. Way nicer carbon fiber work than any carbon bow i've seen and made in China.


look at anything Apple sell. all outsourced to Foxconn in China.

Asia is perfectly capable of delivering world class work. the issue is that companies generally outsource to asia because they want to do it on the cheap, and that's what they get. if they pay for quality then that's available too.



pman said:


> This concern may have been broached already... Will the bridge affect the function of a QAD rest cord?


does it with a Hoyt now? if no then no.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Ryjax said:


> I'm sure we are all familiar to what has been said about the Apple "Facility" in China.


what about it, in terms of product quality? the Apple product is superbly made, regardless of what you think of their business practices.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Scottie/PA said:


> He actually said the riser was made in USA. That is the bow part that was questioned.


I'm waiting for a Scottie review…..


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

I can't tell whether you guys are with me or against me. Are you trying to defend Chinese manufacturing quality or throw it under the bus, nonetheless it's pretty funny. We have one guy warning of knock-offs while almost 100% of the worlds knock-offs come from China (and industrial theft). One guy criticizing carbon quality in bows, which we have established (up until now) have been made in China. Both bring up electronics, as if that has relevance yet neither suggests that Chinese products are as good as American - showing acceptance of the reality. If you think an ISO 20000, 9000, 9001 audit in China is as rigorous as here, or can't be 'influenced' by other factors, you would be ignorant. And by the way, while most carbon bikes frames are Asian made and get here retailing for a few-thousand dollars, the ones made in the USA are far superior, use much better carbon composites (all CF is not created equally - much is mostly plastic/resin), scrutinize even the tiniest detail and retail for tens of thousands of dollars. 

Look, buy all the Chinese crap you want and be as frugal as you can, I am certainly in favor of you paying your bills in lieu of splurging beyond your means. All that is claimed here is that when it comes to manufacturing, materials and controls, the chances of getting a better, higher quality, more reliable and consistent product here in the US vs China is virtually 100%. Say what you will if it makes you feel better.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

caspian said:


> does it with a Hoyt now? if no then no.


Yes, the bridging does interfere with cord on a Hoyt to varying degrees depending on the model, so it isn't a Yes/No answer based on whether the riser is "bridged" or not. It's a legitimate question that deserves more consideration than if it works for "X" then it will work for "Y"


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Also....the cross section of the structural members is obviously different, but design to obtain the strength is... well, decide for yourselves...


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

cross-section?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

caspian said:


> what about it, in terms of product quality? the Apple product is superbly made, regardless of what you think of their business practices.


That's my point.... The product quality is phenomenal. They save money by outsourcing because of labor laws...not because of inferior quality. As with many other high end products made in China.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Mr-Mike said:


> I can't tell whether you guys are with me or against me. Are you trying to defend Chinese manufacturing quality or throw it under the bus, nonetheless it's pretty funny. We have one guy warning of knock-offs while almost 100% of the worlds knock-offs come from China (and industrial theft). One guy criticizing carbon quality in bows, which we have established (up until now) have been made in China. Both bring up electronics, as if that has relevance yet neither suggests that Chinese products are as good as American - showing acceptance of the reality. If you think an ISO 20000, 9000, 9001 audit in China is as rigorous as here, or can't be 'influenced' by other factors, you would be ignorant. And by the way, while most carbon bikes frames are Asian made and get here retailing for a few-thousand dollars, the ones made in the USA are far superior, use much better carbon composites (all CF is not created equally - much is mostly plastic/resin), scrutinize even the tiniest detail and retail for tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> Look, buy all the Chinese crap you want and be as frugal as you can, I am certainly in favor of you paying your bills in lieu of splurging beyond your means. All that is claimed here is that when it comes to manufacturing, materials and controls, the chances of getting a better, higher quality, more reliable and consistent product here in the US vs China is virtually 100%. Say what you will if it makes you feel better.


Actually it does have relevance.... It shows that no all Chinese made products are as horribly made as people seem to think. As for the ISO audits, you are correct... Chinese laws are not as strict as American laws. However, heed my last post on this... I can almost guarantee you buy products that say "Made in the USA", but still has parts coming from China.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

nestly said:


> Anyone else notice how deflected the buss cable appears to be at brace in both the pics and the video(s)?


May have already been mentioned, but I would imagine it is/has to be this way because the cable slide moves very little.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

True, not all, but a a disproportionate amount is inferior. The Apple facility in China is unique and APPL is deeply engaged in its operations performing numerous continual inspections first-hand and through independent non-Chinese agencies. Security at that plant is second to none. I do not accept that a small outsourcing company (such as an archery firm) has the same impact and controls in place. Maybe we can just agree that PSE's riser will be at least as high quality as BowTech's and very likely better - let's wait before passing judgement and see how many finish flaws surface after the Carbon Air has been in the marketplace for a while. That's reasonable no? 

By the way, I am not a PSE fan. I never considered PSE before because I always regarded them as a mass market producer i.e. targeting the masses instead of the discerning buyer. This was strictly an emotional/personal opinion. But now, with the advent of the Air, I see them in a new light.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

dw'struth said:


> May have already been mentioned, but I would imagine it is/has to be this way because the cable slide moves very little.


Which bows have cable guides/slides that are designed to move?


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Mr-Mike said:


> Which bows have cable guides/slides that are designed to move?


Well, a few that I've owned...conquest, vantage elite, triumph. But you're right, now that I think about it roller guards don't move so I'm not sure about that string angle. Not that I think it is a bad thing or even uncommon probably...


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

dw'struth said:


> Well, a few that I've owned...conquest, vantage elite, triumph. But you're right, now that I think about it roller guards don't move so I'm not sure about that string angle. Not that I think it is a bad thing or even uncommon probably...


Thanks for clarifying! If anything, I would think the rigidity is a good thing. As far as angle goes, straighter is probably better though don't think more angle is bad. Interesting or not, Mathews introduced its 'reverse-assist' roller (putting the cable on the outside of the pulleys). The claim is that it makes the draw smoother by placing the cables in better alignment with their path. What's funny or stupid about that is that the cable path (and angle) is straighter on my Safari, without the 'reverse' guide than it is on my Wake with it. Go figure. The Safari's cable is almost dead straight.


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## Mr. Rosewater (Jan 13, 2014)

Outsourcing is a fine business strategy. Lets send all of our production overseas. Soon there won't be any jobs in America. If no one here has a job making products, who then will be able to buy anything at any price? When tire manufacturers move overseas in the 80s, I don't remember the price of my car tires going down. I do though, remember 30,000 people being laid off in that decade in my town. I for one, will not ever buy any products from overseas, if it is available domestically. I understand some things are only made elsewhere and if they are ESSENTIAL for existence, I must buy them. The current Walmart mentality in the U.S. is ruining our unions which protect our quality of life. In an era when we are so bent on closing our borders to immigrants, why don't we start with or harbors, where the real damage is occurring?


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Mr. Rosewater said:


> Outsourcing is a fine business strategy. Lets send all of our production overseas. Soon there won't be any jobs in America. If no one here has a job making products, who then will be able to buy anything at any price? When tire manufacturers move overseas in the 80s, I don't remember the price of my car tires going down. I do though, remember 30,000 people being laid off in that decade in my town. I for one, will not ever buy any products from overseas, if it is available domestically. I understand some things are only made elsewhere and if they are ESSENTIAL for existence, I must buy them. The current Walmart mentality in the U.S. is ruining our unions which protect our quality of life. In an era when we are so bent on closing our borders to immigrants, why don't we start with or harbors, where the real damage is occurring?


Fix the problem, vote Rep.


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## Mr. Rosewater (Jan 13, 2014)

Guess you don't get it.


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

Mathias said:


> I'm waiting for a Scottie review…..


Will do. Should have one in a week or so.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

The new PSE lineup is tight! If you cant admit that your just a blind FANBOY of one brand or another. I love my Athens but I can give credit where it is due


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

That would be Kestrel , My son races for Utah State and that's the Bike he uses...They were the Pioneer in Carbon bicycle frames...

For the rest who say that Hoyt are liers ; where did they ever say that the carbon was made in the USA...I have catalogs going way back somewhere and articles all over the internet that they clearly state that the risers are designed and made by O-Tech ...They even have O-Tech emblems plastered all over the bows...They are not and haven't been hiding a thing

regardless Hoyt has had very few problems with their Carbon risers compared to the amount they have spread out all over the world...Very Low percentage of things wrong with the riser it self 

People continually ***** about the prices of carbon bows now...Have them made in the US and no one could afford them...You can blame the EPA regulations for that one...

jeesh !!



Ryjax said:


> There is a bicycle company that specialize in carbon fiber....but I cannot remember the name. It's definitely not low cost though which is why the bow MSRPs for $1500. Look at Hoyts Carbon line. I have heard that their risers were made in France or Italy (cannot remember which) by a tennis racket company that specializes in carbon fiber. Thus the price is comparable. Even if it were made in China at a high quality it would probably still fall in the same price range. Like you said previously, the Chinese outsourcing price and quality depends on the buyers demands. I'm sure we are all familiar to what has been said about the Apple "Facility" in China.


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

ex-wolverine said:


> That would be Kestrel , My son races for Utah State and that's the Bike he uses...They were the Pioneer in Carbon bicycle frames...
> 
> For the rest who say that Hoyt are liers ; where did they ever say that the carbon was made in the USA...I have catalogs going way back somewhere and articles all over the internet that they clearly state that the risers are designed and made by O-Tech ...They even have O-Tech emblems plastered all over the bows...They are not and haven't been hiding a thing
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what to make of this and don't want to misunderstand what you're saying but the PSE risers are made in the USA.

I can see this thread is going to need some cleaning up by the mods.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Read the post I quoted...He asked about bicycle frames and who started the carbon frames...Then the rest of my post is in reference to those who are calling Hoyt lairs about where the carbon riser was made and the cost of manufacturing in the USA...Read the post I quoted and then go back and read the rest of the thread for the Hoyt and manufacturing carbon in the USA remarks , it will all make sense to you then



Bnbfishin said:


> I'm not sure what to make of this and don't want to misunderstand what you're saying but the PSE risers are made in the USA.
> 
> I can see this thread is going to need some cleaning up by the mods.


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## Ingo (Oct 16, 2008)

ex-wolverine said:


> Read the post I quoted...He asked about bicycle frames and who started the carbon frames...Then the rest of my post is in reference to those who are calling Hoyt lairs about where the carbon riser was made and the cost of manufacturing in the USA...Read the post I quoted and then go back and read the rest of the thread for the Hoyt and manufacturing carbon in the USA remarks , it will all make sense to you then


So just to be clear...

Are you saying that there's no way PSE's riser is IS made?


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Where did I say that...Never once talked about PSE ...You guys need to read my post...I was taking in reference to the folks that said that HOYT was lying about where the carbon bows were made..and why it costs so much to make carbon anything in the USA ...Jeeesh

Was the ACRONYM PSE ever mentioned in my post? NOPE

smh



Ingo said:


> So just to be clear...
> 
> Are you saying that there's no way PSE's riser is IS made?


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## Ingo (Oct 16, 2008)

ex-wolverine said:


> Where did I say that...Never once talked about PSE ...You guys need to read my post...I was taking in reference to the folks that said that HOYT was lying about where the carbon bows were made..and why it costs so much to make carbon anything in the USA ...Jeeesh
> 
> Was the ACRONYM PSE ever mentioned in my post? NOPE
> 
> smh


Calm down man, I was being funny


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

I have a sense of humor trust me...

But to answer your question, time will tell as I'm sure the AT experts will come up with something against PSE...LIke the carbon was bought in China so its really not made in the USA or its injection molded instead of wrapped carbon or something like that...Ha ha that is a Joke just in case no one gets it

I just cant wait to try one...Looks like a shooter 



Ingo said:


> Calm down man, I was being funny


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## waydownsouth (Jun 18, 2012)

4IDARCHER said:


> I love Hoyts as well but would challenge anyone to shoot a Decree HD against a Z5 and tell me the HD cams aren't smoother and easier to pull at any given draw weight.
> 
> The cams on the DNA were far from forgiving, but those HD cams are completely different and make the decree HD the "easiest" pulling bow since the Chill X, only with 20 fps gain in speed.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. ..shot both side by side and I like the Z5 cams better..


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## paulgeorges (Nov 22, 2008)

KimberTac1911 said:


> Im with you. If it was for the world i would believe it. Many of the European countries cant bow hunt


No . In europa 80% of bow sale is for Hunting not for Target .

You can bowhunt in France Spain italy portugal etc.... . Germany no .


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## IowaAssassin (Aug 1, 2011)

So PSE made an ugly, slow Hoyt that Hoyt made years ago? Good job PSE....


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

ex-wolverine said:


> That would be Kestrel , My son races for Utah State and that's the Bike he uses...They were the Pioneer in Carbon bicycle frames...
> 
> For the rest who say that Hoyt are liers ; where did they ever say that the carbon was made in the USA...I have catalogs going way back somewhere and articles all over the internet that they clearly state that the risers are designed and made by O-Tech ...They even have O-Tech emblems plastered all over the bows...They are not and haven't been hiding a thing
> 
> ...


That's it! And unless I am mistaken they do that in the US, right? 
As for your comments about Hoyt, you are correct. They never said it was made in America. As a matter of fact, if you ask a Hoyt Rep they will tell you exactly who makes them and where.


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Mike, I think you misunderstood my post with comments about knockoffs. (No biggie, these things happen when reading text). But in my post I was trying to imply that the quality in Chinese products takes a dive with knockoffs. I may not have stated it out right, but that is definitely what I was implying. 

And I brought up electronics because you seemed to be implying that ALL products that come from China are of poor quality. Which I believe isn't the case. And if electronics aren't a comparison, I don't hear much about poor quality among Hoyt carbon risers, except for the finish. Which, could be done in the USA?


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

waydownsouth said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree. ..shot both side by side and I like the Z5 cams better..


Not me.


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

Hoyt designed the CF risers in a parnership with O-tech. O-tech is a leading CF R&D company from Italy. At that time and even today there are a couple Chinese companies producing some of the highest quality CF products. They do this because they are being overseen by companies like O-Tech. Quality control and mfg specs are all being handled by O-Tech. If it were left only to the Chinese then you would highly likely see a decrease in quality. Not sure about today, but as of a couple years ago there were no US companies capable of producing the Hoyt risers with their current setups. Yes, they could produce them, but it would mean a big investment in different equipment and would mean nobody could afford a Hoyt CF how. In other words Hoyt had no choice other than to go to a Chinese mfg riser, but did so using one of the best companies out there to ensure the highest quality product. Seems like a smart move as their mfg and use of a CF riser has been a hit and likely helped pave the way for Bowtech, PSE and future companies in the use of carbon risers. 

Technology is always changing and one example is LED lighting. It changes very quickly with improvements and cost reductions. CF technology and mfg is changing also. PSE has shown they can build a CF riser here in the USA for a competitive price but using a different process. Is this process better than Hoyt's? Who knows, only time will tell. Because of technology and mfg'ing improvements It is possible Hoyt may change the style and technology of their risers and produce them in the USA also. For now though, Hoyt has proven their quality to be top notch. PSE remains to be seen, but it looks very promising and may be the start of something great. Who knows what Hoyt has up their sleeve as they may just be working on a new CF design that can be made in the USA.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

I have to disagree with you ,the z5 cams feel like a heavier draw weight than they really are ,and HD cam's feel lighter in draw weight than they are.


waydownsouth said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree. ..shot both side by side and I like the Z5 cams better..


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

AR&BOW said:


> Hoyt designed the CF risers in a parnership with O-tech. O-tech is a leading CF R&D company from Italy. At that time and even today there are a couple Chinese companies producing some of the highest quality CF products. They do this because they are being overseen by companies like O-Tech. Quality control and mfg specs are all being handled by O-Tech. If it were left only to the Chinese then you would highly likely see a decrease in quality. Not sure about today, but as of a couple years ago there were no US companies capable of producing the Hoyt risers with their current setups. Yes, they could produce them, but it would mean a big investment in different equipment and would mean nobody could afford a Hoyt CF how. In other words Hoyt had no choice other than to go to a Chinese mfg riser, but did so using one of the best companies out there to ensure the highest quality product. Seems like a smart move as their mfg and use of a CF riser has been a hit and likely helped pave the way for Bowtech, PSE and future companies in the use of carbon risers.
> 
> Technology is always changing and one example is LED lighting. It changes very quickly with improvements and cost reductions. CF technology and mfg is changing also. PSE has shown they can build a CF riser here in the USA for a competitive price but using a different process. Is this process better than Hoyt's? Who knows, only time will tell. Because of technology and mfg'ing improvements It is possible Hoyt may change the style and technology of their risers and produce them in the USA also. For now though, Hoyt has proven their quality to be top notch. PSE remains to be seen, but it looks very promising and may be the start of something great. Who knows what Hoyt has up their sleeve as they may just be working on a new CF design that can be made in the USA.


Well said 

I didn't have the patience to go into that detail earlier 

Good stuff


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

There seems to be 3 categories of people on this thread. Hoyt fans, China fans (perhaps one in the same) and archers who appreciate advancements in equipment. Let's get back the bow. No one here has enough experience, expertise or inside operational knowledge to be making the claims above or the explanations.


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

I really can't wait to get my hands on one of these but I'm waiting and hoping they bring a 35 ata one out here in January.


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## Ray knight (Jan 9, 2012)

Mr-Mike said:


> I can't tell whether you guys are with me or against me. Are you trying to defend Chinese manufacturing quality or throw it under the bus, nonetheless it's pretty funny. We have one guy warning of knock-offs while almost 100% of the worlds knock-offs come from China (and industrial theft). One guy criticizing carbon quality in bows, which we have established (up until now) have been made in China. Both bring up electronics, as if that has relevance yet neither suggests that Chinese products are as good as American - showing acceptance of the reality. If you think an ISO 20000, 9000, 9001 audit in China is as rigorous as here, or can't be 'influenced' by other factors, you would be ignorant. And by the way, while most carbon bikes frames are Asian made and get here retailing for a few-thousand dollars, the ones made in the USA are far superior, use much better carbon composites (all CF is not created equally - much is mostly plastic/resin), scrutinize even the tiniest detail and retail for tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> Look, buy all the Chinese crap you want and be as frugal as you can, I am certainly in favor of you paying your bills in lieu of splurging beyond your means. All that is claimed here is that when it comes to manufacturing, materials and controls, the chances of getting a better, higher quality, more reliable and consistent product here in the US vs China is virtually 100%. Say what you will if it makes you feel better.


What carbon bike frames are made in the USA these days? Even Pinarello Dogma frames are Chinese made now. I'd personally be leary of any structural carbon fiber product that is fully made here. Taiwan and China are the world leaders in CF manufacturing. They have the best equipment and most experience. Not that it can't be done properly here but the investment to mass produce structural CF components at a relatively low price would be astronomical. Not to mention liability insurance cost.


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## NUTZJ98 (Aug 22, 2015)

I like how all these anti PSE shooters here like to throw around term like PSE fanboy and Hoyt copy. Over the last couple decades it has taken new manufactures to make the crazy leaps and bounds that all of the big boys have cozied up to. 

PSE bridged riser in the 90s and carbon handles in the 90s. They are also always making the fastest, quietest, and lightest bows on the market. Sure they are using known materials and methods. That's like complaining that they have created a weapon with limbs which means they copied elite. Lol. Laughable kiddies.

The real issue here is people believing they can buy their way to becoming a better shot and winning a shoot. So they look down on somebody performing at a level that they can't while spending far less money. And can count very few companies that have not only been in the business as long as PSE but also have stayed in there and furthered the sport to where it is today all while making it possible to stay legitimate in the field and competitions without breaking the bank. So hate all you want because your money isn't improving your abilities. Not everything in the world works that way. 

As for the bow. I'm not big on ultralight rigs. When you start cranking up the energy, how much dampening will you need to deal with shock and noise. Then there's always the stability issues. 

But it is a neat gimmick which I'm sure will actually suit some shooters. And it also keeps competition on their toes. 

I'm still deciding on making the leap from single cams. These newer dual/hybrid cam bows just keep getting better.


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## jorkep (Oct 13, 2005)

Ray knight said:


> What carbon bike frames are made in the USA these days? Even Pinarello Dogma frames are Chinese made now. I'd personally be leary of any structural carbon fiber product that is fully made here. Taiwan and China are the world leaders in CF manufacturing. They have the best equipment and most experience. Not that it can't be done properly here but the investment to mass produce structural CF components at a relatively low price would be astronomical. Not to mention liability insurance cost.


i'm sorry but you could not be more wrong. there are a ton of companies building carbon frames of sorts here in the US. to say that that you would be suspect of anything not made in china is well idiotic.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

NUTZJ98 said:


> ..... The real issue here is people believing they can buy their way to becoming a better shot and winning a shoot. So they look down on somebody performing at a level that they can't while spending far less money.
> 
> ..... So hate all you want because your money isn't improving your abilities.


I don't understand how "winning" has any place in this topic considering the people that are "winning" aren't shooting carbon riser bows, and that's not going to change just because PSE is now in the carbon game.

There are only two reasons to buy a carbon riser bow: 1) The "Cool" factor 2) Weight


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Ray knight said:


> What carbon bike frames are made in the USA these days? Even Pinarello Dogma frames are Chinese made now. I'd personally be leary of any structural carbon fiber product that is fully made here. Taiwan and China are the world leaders in CF manufacturing. They have the best equipment and most experience. Not that it can't be done properly here but the investment to mass produce structural CF components at a relatively low price would be astronomical. Not to mention liability insurance cost.


Sorry friend, try Google. Frankly I am bored of people just saying stuff because they think it and expect the rest of us to believe them because they said it. They all have something in common - limited knowledge. They are never specific, never have examples, never have statistics, are almost always wrong (and eventually proven so) and usually end with a foolish comment like "and there's ... <fill-in-the-blank>" like they are hoping it's relevant but recognize they really don't have a clue. Liability cost - hilarious! What? Do you think a manufacturer is not liable because it was made somewhere else - LOL..


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

nestly said:


> I don't understand how "winning" has any place in this topic considering the people that are "winning" aren't shooting carbon riser bows, and that's not going to change just because PSE is now in the carbon game.
> 
> There are only two reasons to buy a carbon riser bow: 1) The "Cool" factor 2) Weight


I believe the gentleman was merely pointing the tendency for people to criticize things they can't afford (and voice those objections), and attack the people who can.

Anyway, definitely the cool factor, the weight could be a reason some may choose not to buy, I think. Which may support your comment about top shooters shooting aluminum. Personally, I like steady and dead in my bows, but in this case I will make an exception. I am looking forward to one.


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## optimal_max (Oct 26, 2010)

IDK, as soon as I saw the riser it looked like a smooth version of the Hoyt riser to me. 

Hope it does well for PSe.


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## paulgeorges (Nov 22, 2008)

Mr-Mike said:


> I believe the gentleman was merely pointing the tendency for people to criticize things they can't afford (and voice those objections), and attack the people who can.
> 
> Anyway, definitely the cool factor, the weight could be a reason some may choose not to buy, I think. Which may support your comment about top shooters shooting aluminum. Personally, I like steady and dead in my bows, but in this case I will make an exception. I am looking forward to one.



I tried and bought the CST ZT but I prefer the aluminium riser of my Wake . More accurate with a heavy bow . It is a very personnal choice .


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## Toddk31 (Feb 11, 2007)

Ray knight said:


> What carbon bike frames are made in the USA these days? Even Pinarello Dogma frames are Chinese made now. I'd personally be leary of any structural carbon fiber product that is fully made here. Taiwan and China are the world leaders in CF manufacturing. They have the best equipment and most experience. Not that it can't be done properly here but the investment to mass produce structural CF components at a relatively low price would be astronomical. Not to mention liability insurance cost.


What a crock of ****.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mr-Mike said:


> I believe the gentleman was merely pointing the tendency for people to criticize things they can't afford (and voice those objections), and attack the people who can.
> 
> Anyway, definitely the cool factor, the weight could be a reason some may choose not to buy, I think. Which may support your comment about top shooters shooting aluminum. Personally, I like steady and dead in my bows, but in this case I will make an exception. I am looking forward to one.


If the bow had a more affordable price, it likely would have gotten just as many negative comments because it would be perceived as "cheap". There are "haters" who hate it because of "X" reason, but there are also lovers that love it because of "Y", even though neither the haters nor the lovers have actually held it in their hands yet. Honestly, you seem to be the latter, objectively what logical reason is there for you to make an "exception" for this bow, and not the Hoyt or Bowtech carbon?

Again, I don't hate the bow... I rather like the look, the general design, and the fact that PSE didn't try to break the sound barrier with it and I think it may generally do well for them barring any unforeseen problems, but I don't get those who are in love with it based only on the advertising. You can already buy bows that are just as light, just as fast, and just a "cool" to own.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

nestly said:


> I don't understand how "winning" has any place in this topic considering the people that are "winning" aren't shooting carbon riser bows, and that's not going to change just because PSE is now in the carbon game.
> 
> There are only two reasons to buy a carbon riser bow: 1) The "Cool" factor 2) Weight


I bought high country carbon bows for the thermal properties. They don't get cold in your hand in the winter time so that makes three reasons[emoji12][emoji16][emoji106]


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

Mr-Mike said:


> There seems to be 3 categories of people on this thread. Hoyt fans, China fans (perhaps one in the same) and archers who appreciate advancements in equipment. Let's get back the bow. No one here has enough experience, expertise or inside operational knowledge to be making the claims above or the explanations.





Mr-Mike said:


> Sorry friend, try Google. Frankly I am bored of people just saying stuff because they think it and expect the rest of us to believe them because they said it. They all have something in common - limited knowledge. They are never specific, never have examples, never have statistics, are almost always wrong (and eventually proven so) and usually end with a foolish comment like "and there's ... <fill-in-the-blank>" like they are hoping it's relevant but recognize they really don't have a clue. Liability cost - hilarious! What? Do you think a manufacturer is not liable because it was made somewhere else - LOL..


You forgot the "hater" as you really seem to hate on Hoyt in many threads.

You keep saying stuff to dismiss what others have offered yet you show no proof either. . . your the same. If you are referring or partially referring to my post above with FACTS in them that is fine. The information I provided came right from the mouth of Randy Walk, President of Hoyt.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

nestly said:


> If the bow had a more affordable price, it likely would have gotten just as many negative comments because it would be perceived as "cheap". There are "haters" who hate it because of "X" reason, but there are also lovers that love it because of "Y", even though neither the haters nor the lovers have actually held it in their hands yet. Honestly, you seem to be the latter, objectively what logical reason is there for you to make an "exception" for this bow, and not the Hoyt or Bowtech carbon?
> 
> Again, I don't hate the bow... I rather like the look, the general design, and the fact that PSE didn't try to break the sound barrier with it and I think it may generally do well for them barring any unforeseen problems, but I don't get those who are in love with it based only on the advertising. You can already buy bows that are just as light, just as fast, and just a "cool" to own.


Yes I am a lover. The difference with me is that I am not a PSE FanBoy. I actually never considered them and had PSE pegged as a mass-market-consumer focused company, as opposed to one targeting the high-end, discerning buyer. Anyway, true, I have no more insight or basis of claim than you or most others here. So why this PSE, you ask? The looks and the specs - nothing more. Why not the Hoyt or Bowtech? Don't like the look and more importantly, both have far too many quality control/production problems and/or service short-falls for me. To you B & H fans who will attempt to refute, let's just say we disagree in advance and save the polluting this thread.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

AR&BOW said:


> You forgot the "hater" as you really seem to hate on Hoyt in many threads.
> 
> You keep saying stuff to dismiss what others have offered yet you show no proof either. . . your the same. If you are referring or partially referring to my post above with FACTS in them that is fine. The information I provided came right from the mouth of Randy Walk, President of Hoyt.


It would be great if Hoyt found a manufacturer to make their carbon bows in the USA, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are looking for a new manufacturer anyways seeing as the company that makes their carbon risers has gone bankrupt and changed ownership twice in the past couple years. Oh and by the way the name of the company that makes Hoyts risers is Prince Sports, O-Tech is just the name Prince uses for their technology.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

ChuckA84 said:


> It would be great if Hoyt found a manufacturer to make their carbon bows in the USA, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are looking for a new manufacturer anyways seeing as the company that makes their carbon risers has gone bankrupt and changed ownership twice in the past couple years. Oh and by the way the name of the company that makes Hoyts risers is Prince Sports, *O-Tech is just the name Prince uses for their technology.[/QUOTE
> 
> *
> 
> oooookkkk??? One in the same don't you thiink


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

ChuckA84 said:


> It would be great if Hoyt found a manufacturer to make their carbon bows in the USA, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are looking for a new manufacturer anyways seeing as the company that makes their carbon risers has gone bankrupt and changed ownership twice in the past couple years. Oh and by the way the name of the company that makes Hoyts risers is Prince Sports, O-Tech is just the name Prince uses for their technology.


I agree and yes as I stated O-Tech is the R & D firm that worked with Hoyt, not the mfg'er. As far as mfg'er I have heard many times it was Prince, but did not say anything as it was only on At and I had no proof or did not hear it from the horses mouth. Would love to see Hoyt make the risers in the USA as with any product we buy. The PSE looks really good and promising. When the ATA grows i will try it out for sure.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

ex-wolverine said:


> ChuckA84 said:
> 
> 
> > It would be great if Hoyt found a manufacturer to make their carbon bows in the USA, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are looking for a new manufacturer anyways seeing as the company that makes their carbon risers has gone bankrupt and changed ownership twice in the past couple years. Oh and by the way the name of the company that makes Hoyts risers is Prince Sports, *O-Tech is just the name Prince uses for their technology.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mr-Mike said:


> So why this PSE, you ask? The looks and the specs - nothing more.


An preference toward the looks is perfectly valid, but I kinda doubt it's really the "specs" as there's not really any "spec" or combination of "specs" on the Carbon Air that isn't available from other manufacturers.



Mr-Mike said:


> Why not the Hoyt or Bowtech? Don't like the look and more importantly, both have far too many quality control/production problems and/or service short-falls for me. To you B & H fans who will attempt to refute, let's just say we disagree in advance and save the polluting this thread.


Again, not looks is a perfectly valid reason not to like a bow, but I doubt you have any actual data to back up the quality/service claim. More likely it's a misperception that company "x" has more problems because they have a larger share of the market, rather than having a larger failure rate as a percentage of total units sold. As for polluting the thread, you can't fire the first shot and then claim the other side started the fight when they shoot back. If you didn't want a brand specific discussion about quality/service, you shouldn't have made a statement about the quality/service of a certain brand(s)


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

If its a Technology of Prince Sports , is it not one in the same? Your arguing semantics, I'm not

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/sports/tennis/30prince.html



> The most unusual application so far is probably the Hoyt archery bow. There are no orderly holes as on other equipment. Instead, three hollow twig-like carbon-fiber tubes twist like a pretzel. (“It’s a liberal interpretation” of O-Tech, Davis said.) Hoyt calls it a “quantum leap” for the archery industry.


“The impact of O-Tech technology on the archery industry could completely revolutionize the sport,” Hoyt’s president, Randy Walk, wrote in an e-mail. “These types of technology and advancements within ancient sports don’t come very often.”





ChuckA84 said:


> ex-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Not really. The name of the company is Prince Sports, and in reality the O-Tech technology has nothing to do with the Hoyt risers even though they put the O-Tech stickers on them. The O-Tech is actually putting holes in the frames of tennis racquets so there is less air resistance during the swing.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

ex-wolverine said:


> If its a Technology of Prince Sports , is it not one in the same? Your arguing semantics, I'm not
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/sports/tennis/30prince.html
> 
> ...


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## blance7 (Jan 11, 2012)

0nepin said:


> You sir are clueless


How am I clueless? Just because I don't like the way a bow looks doesn't mean I am clueless. And I know that carbon should cost more but I personally feel that aluminum boys are a bit over priced as well. So I am not clueless for having an opinion on somethings appearance or cost. I am not speaking on rocket science here, which is something I know nothing about..so you sir are speaking ignorantly.


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

Let me clarify my position my position as it seems some shots are being taken which may or may not be directed at me. 

1) I am not a fan of China, their labor laws are absurd. All I was doing was simply pointing out that the quality of Chinese products is not as bad as some make it seem to be. Do they have some bad business practices? Sure. Do American companies have bad business practices, absolutely!!! Do they steal technology? Sure. The U.S doesn't? They absolutely do, and have been since the early 19th century when one of the founders of the Lowell textile mills STOLE the British technology for spinning textiles, such as cotton and wool. Dont believe me? Look at Daniel Walkers' book "What Hath God Wrought." 

2) I'm not a PSE hater. The Decree HD may be my next bow, but was waiting to see what they put out this year. Also, I can easily afford $1500 for a bow. I'd suggest leaving comments about people's incomes and what they can and cannot afford out of the thread, as no none has any idea what most here can and cannot afford. 

3) Funny how some talk about providing stats and relevant comparisons, when they don't provide any themselves. And when it is pointed out that there doesn't seem to be many complaints about the quality control of Hoyt's risers, which are made in China, that gets ignored. Seems like that is a pretty relevant comparison about quality control of carbon manufacturing in China.


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## blance7 (Jan 11, 2012)

ChuckA84 said:


> Lets see...it is made of a superior type of carbon construction, it has superior titanium hardware, it has superior premium strings and cables, and it is made here in the USA instead of China like the Hoyt carbon bows, and its design wont cause arrow rest fitment issues with some rests like the Hoyts...gee that extra $100 really does sound ridiculous (for Hoyt)


I guess what I meant more about the comment is that it is ridiculous that we pay so much for bare bows in general. The bow just doesn't wow me. A lot of guys don't like the look of the hoyt carbon design but at least it has a design. I am sure the carbon air is a great bow. PSE makes a great bow. That bow, as some one else said, is just boring to me. I am sure they will sell a pile of them. It will be interesting to see how that bow evolves.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

blance7 said:


> I guess what I meant more about the comment is that it is ridiculous that we pay so much for bare bows in general. The bow just doesn't wow me. A lot of guys don't like the look of the hoyt carbon design but at least it has a design. I am sure the carbon air is a great bow. PSE makes a great bow. That bow, as some one else said, is just boring to me. I am sure they will sell a pile of them. It will be interesting to see how that bow evolves.


Yeah its not exactly my thing either as light bows blow around in the wind too much for me and I mainly treestand hunt. I agree though about bow prices getting crazy but when people are willing to pay the crazy prices then the companies have no reason to lower them.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

enewman said:


> Could be twins


Maybe fraternal twins.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

It's funny people I talk to use to hate Hoyt carbon bows but, now that PSE has one they are luving all up on em. 
I never much cared for the Hoyt bows so for me PSE just went in the wrong direction.... no thanks.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

mdewitt71 said:


> It's funny people I talk to use to hate Hoyt carbon bows but, now that PSE has one they are luving all up on em.
> I never much cared for the Hoyt bows so for me PSE just went in the wrong direction.... no thanks.


Maybe because the Hoyts are un godly ugly IMHO, and have Hoyts cams attached to them, that I don't care for.
The PSE just looks so sleek and svelt compared to the Hoyts.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.



This is the most ignorant post I have ever read on AT.


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

IowaAssassin said:


> So PSE made an ugly, slow Hoyt that Hoyt made years ago? Good job PSE....


and hoyt only copied from high country and another company i can not recall right now to bring out a carbon riser,,,, Hoyt did not originate the carbon riser!!!!! so how is is that PSE is coping them? are you talking about the bridged riser that Martin invented many years ago? hoyt copied that too!


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

mainehunt said:


> This is the most ignorant post I have ever read on AT.


i agree with you,,, !


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

xman59 said:


> and hoyt only copied from high country and another company i can not recall right now to bring out a carbon riser,,,, Hoyt did not originate the carbon riser!!!!! so how is is that PSE is coping them? are you talking about the bridged riser that Martin invented many years ago? hoyt copied that too!


Been a lot of talk about them, but I'd be interested in seeing actual pics of the carbon and bridged risers that preceded Hoyts...


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

xman59 said:


> and hoyt only copied from high country and another company i can not recall right now to bring out a carbon riser,,,, Hoyt did not originate the carbon riser!!!!! so how is is that PSE is coping them? are you talking about the bridged riser that Martin invented many years ago? hoyt copied that too!


Believe it or not Diamond Archery had carbon riser before bowtech purchased them back in the day 

The riser was much like the construction of the current bow tech and win-win risers of today 

Nothing like the Hoyt carbon tubes at all 

I believe PSE used to have a carbon bow back in the day also


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

ChuckA84 said:


> ex-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > If its a Technology of Prince Sports , is it not one in the same? Your arguing semantics, I'm not
> ...


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

nestly said:


> Been a lot of talk about them, but I'd be interested in seeing actual pics of the carbon and bridged risers that preceded Hoyts...


my guess is your typing on a computer,,, not hard to look them up


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

xman59 said:


> my guess is your typing on a computer,,, not hard to look them up


I looked... .didn't find either. 
In any event, I'm not the one that said "X" copied "Y", or "A" had it before "B". All I'm asking is that since some are making those claims, how about putting up something to demonstrate how much "copying" has really taken place.

Since I'm "in it" now, I'll start.


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## ike_osu (Jul 1, 2008)

I disagree with it being the ugliest bow ever.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

nestly said:


> <snip> ...As for polluting the thread, you can't fire the first shot and then claim the other side started the fight when they shoot back. If you didn't want a brand specific discussion about quality/service, you shouldn't have made a statement about the quality/service of a certain brand(s)


Fair enough. Though I did not start that subject, I am as guilty as anyone else for adding fuel to the fire. Accusation retracted Sir.


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

KMiha said:


> Let me clarify my position my position as it seems some shots are being taken which may or may not be directed at me.
> 
> 1) I am not a fan of China, their labor laws are absurd. All I was doing was simply pointing out that the quality of Chinese products is not as bad as some make it seem to be. Do they have some bad business practices? Sure. Do American companies have bad business practices, absolutely!!! Do they steal technology? Sure. The U.S doesn't? They absolutely do, and have been since the early 19th century when one of the founders of the Lowell textile mills STOLE the British technology for spinning textiles, such as cotton and wool. Dont believe me? Look at Daniel Walkers' book "What Hath God Wrought."
> 
> ...


Interesting you mention China labor laws. USA labor laws pale in comparison to the rest of the industrialized world. Virtually all carbon bike frames are produced in China. It makes sense Hoyt would go there. I look forward to seeing the PSE bow


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## tx20rocket (Jul 29, 2011)

Here's a fun fact for everyone pointing out all the crap carbon bows of years gone by. Pse not high country,jennings or hoyt made they first carbon riser bow in the early 90's. All and I mean ALL of the ones shipped to dealers were bought back from pse at full retail not at dealer cost because PSE was unsure of the quality and dependability of these bows.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

tx20rocket said:


> Here's a fun fact for everyone pointing out all the crap carbon bows of years gone by. Pse not high country,jennings or hoyt made they first carbon riser bow in the early 90's. All and I mean ALL of the ones shipped to dealers were bought back from pse at full retail not at dealer cost because PSE was unsure of the quality and dependability of these bows.


What was the name of this bow?


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## tx20rocket (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't remember call pigeon rd in Stephenville and ask alan, he's an archery encyclopedia


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## tx20rocket (Jul 29, 2011)

another fun fact is that he built a bmxl that became the supra........


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

deadduck357 said:


> What was the name of this bow?


PSE Carbon Lite


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## Keith t (Oct 31, 2008)

I like it


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## NUTZJ98 (Aug 22, 2015)

nestly said:


> Been a lot of talk about them, but I'd be interested in seeing actual pics of the carbon and bridged risers that preceded Hoyts...


It's called a search engine. Or Google. Just look up the PSE Carbon Lite or the PSE Rageous. 

Why would people just spew craziness with no facts then expect others to "show them"? 

No Hoyt didn't create the first bow for the GEICO cavemen nor the first bridged riser nor the first Carbon anything. Heck the only true first Hoyt may have is divorce by being broke. Lol. 

Seriously just quit trash talking things you know nothing about.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

Cold Weather said:


> PSE Carbon Lite


Old school for sure.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

OK so nobody's going to post pictures of those bows so here are the pictures first is the carbon lite if I remember it did not have a stabilizer hole









Next PSE rageous bridged riser. I owned one of these


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## Deadeye1205 (Dec 13, 2007)

Wolfey said:


> You're a fool I'm not gonna waste my time on. I've seen bows with way better finishes than pse and hoyt has good finish on all but the carbon bows which we'll see if pse has figured it out but it's their first carbon so u have no chance of knowing if the finish will hold up or not.


Hoyt finishes, aluminum or carbon, aren't very good. PSE's, through my experience, is better. But who knows about the carbon air


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

Deadeye1205 said:


> Hoyt finishes, aluminum or carbon, aren't very good. PSE's, through my experience, is better. But who knows about the carbon air


Maybe the newer than 2011 hosts have went downhill but my crx 32 has an awesome finish and it's been used pretty hard. Not a single chip besides where the rest and sight mount to it(but every bow gets that way).


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## Deadeye1205 (Dec 13, 2007)

Wolfey said:


> Maybe the newer than 2011 hosts have went downhill but my crx 32 has an awesome finish and it's been used pretty hard. Not a single chip besides where the rest and sight mount to it(but every bow gets that way).


Yea, my Alphamax 32 had a good finish to it. But my carbon spyder turbo and nitrum turbo with both pretty meh when it came to finish. Good shooting bows though


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## backinthegame (Jul 21, 2015)

Never in my wildest imagination could I see myself spending that much on a bow(1500.00) but I must admit I am seriously considering it, enough so that I'll start stashing pennies whenever I get the chance. The new Carbon Air will be mine hopefully by this time next year.
This will also give enough time for any possible problems in the bow to show up, that is if there are any.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

archerdad said:


> OK so nobody's going to post pictures of those bows so here are the pictures first is the carbon lite if I remember it did not have a stabilizer hole
> 
> Next PSE rageous bridged riser. I owned one of these


Thanks for the pics.

I found a High Country press release claiming the first Carbon riser (Lite Speed 1996) ... but I have no idea if that's accurate or not.

The PSE Rageous seems to be from about 2000-2001, Hoyt introduced the Alphatec in 1996 model year. Now that I think about it, I don't recall any major bow companies using Split limbs before Hoyt either (but my memory isn't what is used to be).


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## bcowette (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm most curious how this noise dampening fill in the riser performs. The cams are proven so if this riser is super stable, quiet, and dead in the hand this thing will be a winner.


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## Doorny22 (Jul 9, 2010)

PSE's Carbon Air is very ugly. One of the ugliest I have seen and cant believe its $1,500.


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

Just bend over in 2 or 3 years when you try to sell it.....


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## South Man (Jul 12, 2008)

I owned three Hoyt Carbon bows and bought two of them new. One of them had such a horrible finish that the dealer called them right away once we removed it from the box and they asked for pics. We sent pics to them and after another waiting period they sent another one with defects which I turned around and sold. I am sure many bows have finish flaws but I paid a lot of money and the Hoyts were less than acceptable. I have not seen the PSE yet but hope the finish is better than Hoyts! I have owned many other Hoyt bows with not finish problems.


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## bstring (Jan 24, 2013)

Doorny22 said:


> PSE's Carbon Air is very ugly. One of the ugliest I have seen and cant believe its $1,500.


Thanks. You are a wealth of knowledge.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

South Man said:


> I owned three Hoyt Carbon bows and bought two of them new. One of them had such a horrible finish that the dealer called them right away once we removed it from the box and they asked for pics. We sent pics to them and after another waiting period they sent another one with defects which I turned around and sold. I am sure many bows have finish flaws but I paid a lot of money and the Hoyts were less than acceptable. I have not seen the PSE yet but hope the finish is better than Hoyts! I have owned many other Hoyt bows with not finish problems.


Nonsense. You and all the others dealing with Hoyt finish issues are imagining it 



bstring said:


> Thanks. You are a wealth of knowledge.


lol.


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## Paradox (Nov 7, 2002)

"The PSE Rageous seems to be from about 2000-2001, Hoyt introduced the Alphatec in 1996 model year. Now that I think about it, I don't recall any major bow companies using Split limbs before Hoyt either (but my memory isn't what is used to be)"

Quadraflex used split limbs in the 80's.

To save all you guy some time about all the "who did this or that first"....just go to archery history. There isn't much in archery that hasn't already been thought of...but advancements in materials, engineering and manufacturing make a lot these ideas new and viable again. http://www.archeryhistory.com/compounds/80.htm

And for what it's worth....I like the new PSE Carbon Air....and I've shot Hoyts for 25 years. It is different....even though bridging looks the same. You can't change physics.


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## griffwar (Nov 15, 2012)

Doorny22 said:


> PSE's Carbon Air is very ugly. One of the ugliest I have seen and cant believe its $1,500.


I agree but I think Hoyts are ugly to! But I will shoot it just like I do all of them and if I like it I will own one! I don't care how it looks if it's a shooter!!


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## South Man (Jul 12, 2008)

Mr-Mike said:


> Nonsense. You and all the others dealing with Hoyt finish issues are imagining it
> 
> 
> 
> lol.


Sorry but true and I am not bashing Hoyts at all. I have owned several.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The PSE is a lot cleaner looking IMO. I liked the Carbon Element, but the spagetti riser of the Spyder is hideous to me.


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

I am glad my all black '14 CS34 has a perfect finish. I guess I got lucky as it seriously has no finish flaws and after almost 2 seasons it still looks like new. I take care of it, but it is not babied. Would love to see Hoyt use a dye sublimation process for camo bows.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

South Man said:


> Sorry but true and I am not bashing Hoyts at all. I have owned several.


That was sarcasm... I regressed.


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## ChizCRX35 (Apr 1, 2012)

Is it a surprise that PSE would be trying to one-up the highly successful Hoyt carbon line? No. And frankly, I'm glad they're doing it. If the S-RAC really helps quiet the bow, then they've successfully set a higher bar which is what competition is all about. Hoyt and others will respond and we'll all be better off for it.

That being said, similarity in shape/geometry aside....

1) Claiming that the "arch bridge" is "exclusive" is a bit dubious;
2) The "Shock Modz" look very similar to "Shock Rods" - and PSE's choice of the name itself doesn't even warrant further comment.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Paradox said:


> Quadraflex used split limbs in the 80's.
> 
> To save all you guy some time about all the "who did this or that first"....just go to archery history. There isn't much in archery that hasn't already been thought of...but advancements in materials, engineering and manufacturing make a lot these ideas new and viable again. http://www.archeryhistory.com/compounds/80.htm
> 
> And for what it's worth....I like the new PSE Carbon Air....and I've shot Hoyts for 25 years. It is different....even though bridging looks the same. You can't change physics.


Perhaps technically, but I qualified my statement with "major bow companies". In other words, I'm personally not concerned about an experimental bow, or one that was relatively unknown and then faded back into obscurity, I'm talking about who did it and actually made it work, stuff that actually made a difference in the world of archery.... like the Matthews One-Cam for example. Yeah someone did that before "Matthews" too, but Matthews rightly deserves credit for pioneering one-cam technology in my book no matter who else tinkered around with the idea before them. Matthew did one-cam, and everyone else followed with varying degrees of success. Hoyt was the first company to fully replace steel cables with HMPE, and everyone else followed. Same for split limbs, and now carbon risers. Doing something, and doing something that changes the entire industry, not to mention public opinion, are not the same thing, IMO


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not one to judge a bow by how it looks, but by how it shoots. BUT...gotta hand it to PSE they have made their ugliest bow yet LOL.


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## bcowette (Jan 11, 2007)

Everyone says the new bows are ugly when all they see is pictures. Guarantee it looks nice in person and in 2 months there will be tons of people on here saying how bad ass it shoots and looks. Happens every year.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)




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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

ChizCRX35 said:


> Is it a surprise that PSE would be trying to one-up the highly successful Hoyt carbon line? No. And frankly, I'm glad they're doing it. If the S-RAC really helps quiet the bow, then they've successfully set a higher bar which is what competition is all about. Hoyt and others will respond and we'll all be better off for it.


That's what I'm afraid of. In excess of $1,500.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

sagecreek said:


> The PSE is a lot cleaner looking IMO. I liked the Carbon Element, but the spagetti riser of the Spyder is hideous to me.


100% agree.


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

Amen!....and don't forget the dull camo....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

To be fair....only offering a black riser is pretty "dull" also....right"


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

nestly said:


> To be fair....only offering a black riser is pretty "dull" also....right"


Yeah, I'd have to agree with that


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

agree 2


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

some did say you will be able to get camo limbs on this bad boy right.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

yep...you can


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## AK&HIboy (Mar 6, 2008)

Yes Web site has mossy oak limbs as a option.


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## BP1992 (Dec 24, 2010)

AK&HIboy said:


> Yes Web site has mossy oak limbs as a option.


Camo limbs with a black riser is even worse than just a plain black riser. Hopefully they come out with full camo next year.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

BP1992 said:


> Camo limbs with a black riser is even worse than just a plain black riser. Hopefully they come out with full camo next year.


I believe they said they are still perfecting the process to camo the risers but it is something that will be available in the future


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

PSE_DG said:


> The good 'ol US of A
> 
> Donn Green
> PSE Markeing


Now THAT is awesome. Hats off to PSE on that. Similarly priced to Hoyt and you didn't make it in China. I guess the Hoyt fanboys who claim it would raise the price so much more to make it in the USA that nobody would buy it, are wrong. 

I'll take a look at this one for sure, I'm not a big PSE fan but I can certainly see (along with anybody who isn't a Hoyt fanboy, or just frankly dumb) that it does share the look of a Hoyt but it is most definitely in its own category. Love seeing American companies sticking with American manufacturing. Thumbs up from a non PSE guy [emoji106]🏻


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

its a win win for me I'm a hoyt and pse fanboy.


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

goodoleboy11 said:


> Now THAT is awesome. Hats off to PSE on that. Similarly priced to Hoyt and you didn't make it in China. I guess the Hoyt fanboys who claim it would raise the price so much more to make it in the USA that nobody would buy it, are wrong.
> 
> I'll take a look at this one for sure, I'm not a big PSE fan but I can certainly see (along with anybody who isn't a Hoyt fanboy, or just frankly dumb) that it does share the look of a Hoyt but it is most definitely in its own category. Love seeing American companies sticking with American manufacturing. Thumbs up from a non PSE guy [emoji106]&#55356;&#57339;


Not wrong at all. The process that Hoyt uses was not able to be built in the USA due to no companies having the equipment needed to do it. It would have taken a very large financial investment to do so which would have put the cost of the bows way out of reach. . . . in the +/- $3000 range.


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

AR&BOW said:


> Not wrong at all. The process that Hoyt uses was not able to be built in the USA due to no companies having the equipment needed to do it. It would have taken a very large financial investment to do so which would have put the cost of the bows way out of reach. . . . in the +/- $3000 range.


Whatever you say, I'm no expert on carbon manufacturing and know little of the process so I'm not going to argue with you on that. I am just stating it in black and white


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

AR&BOW said:


> Not wrong at all. The process that Hoyt uses was not able to be built in the USA due to no companies having the equipment needed to do it. It would have taken a very large financial investment to do so which would have put the cost of the bows way out of reach. . . . in the +/- $3000 range.


Wow. That's interesting. Since you have so much internal proprietary business information about Hoyt, please tell us what equipment your are referencing and how much that investment is - I assume you know that since you provided the alternative MSRP.


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

I think buy now the money hoyt would have invested into the equipment to do the carbon in house would have paid for it's self by now .


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

AK&HIboy said:


> Yes Web site has mossy oak limbs as a option.


Camo and Skullworks limbs are through custom shop, which adds both money and delivery time.


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## AK&HIboy (Mar 6, 2008)

Scottie/PA said:


> Camo and Skullworks limbs are through custom shop, which adds both money and delivery time.


Ouch did not read that!Camo as a custom option seems crazy to me.


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## [email protected] (Jun 22, 2009)

MO Country and Skullworks 2 are standard limb color options. NOT Custom.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

I'm still wondering how the stiffness of the Carbon riser compares 
To the 7075 aluminum planar risers.


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## AK&HIboy (Mar 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> MO Country and Skullworks 2 are standard limb color options. NOT Custom.


This is what I thought after looking at the website.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

highwaynorth said:


> I'm still wondering how the stiffness of the Carbon riser compares
> To the 7075 aluminum planar risers.


It's not really an apples to apples comparison between carbon and aluminum. More rigid isn't necessarily a good thing and they don't react exactly the same to stress and vibration. Carbon is potentially stronger pound-for-pound....but the need for "stiffer' risers isn't what's driving the push toward carbon risers.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I want one full Camo with man cams because my DL is not so manly..


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

nestly said:


> It's not really an apples to apples comparison between carbon and aluminum. More rigid isn't necessarily a good thing and they don't react exactly the same to stress and vibration. Carbon is potentially stronger pound-for-pound....but the need for "stiffer' risers isn't what's driving the push toward carbon risers.


I realize the reason for carbon is reduced bow weight but they also claim a stiffer shooting platform. Stiffer 
Is better as long as it doesn't break.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

I kind of compare A carbon riser bow to an aluminum bow to carbon and aluminum arrows it is easier to have a stiffer riser from carbon instead of aluminum to equal the same stiffness it would have to be much thicker same way with carbon arrows you can get stiffer arrows that are much lighter than their aluminum counterparts I thought I've seen plenty of slow-motion videos that carbon arrows recover faster then aluminum arrows so I could only imagine that a riser would be the same maybe I'm wrong and don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems to make sense to me the main reason I like carbon risers is for the thermal properties especially in the cold


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> MO Country and Skullworks 2 are standard limb color options. NOT Custom.


You had better tell Customer Service that at PSE. Teresa, Bobbi and another girl think otherwise.


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## norsemen (Feb 22, 2011)

Scottie/PA said:


> You had better tell Customer Service that at PSE. Teresa, Bobbi and another girl think otherwise.


If it's not true, they need to re-word their web page. This quote taken from their website > "Available in all Black, or black riser with Mossy Oak Break-Up Country limbs, or black riser with Skullworks 2 limbs".


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

archerdad said:


> I kind of compare A carbon riser bow to an aluminum bow to carbon and aluminum arrows it is easier to have a stiffer riser from carbon instead of aluminum to equal the same stiffness it would have to be much thicker same way with carbon arrows you can get stiffer arrows that are much lighter than their aluminum counterparts I thought I've seen plenty of slow-motion videos that carbon arrows recover faster then aluminum arrows so I could only imagine that a riser would be the same maybe I'm wrong and don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems to make sense to me the main reason I like carbon risers is for the thermal properties especially in the cold


You are correct, but having owned 2 of them, I can tell you good luck when you want to sell it....resale sucks....and I never did understand why a warmer riser was a big deal.....do people actually hold their bow when they're in their stand or blind?.....I know I havn't sine 1979 when my Dad and his business partner patented and sold the first bow holders....


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

LOL resale sucks on all bows.


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

archerdad said:


> LOL resale sucks on all bows.


That's true....bad not as bad as carbon bows....about the only thing worse on resale than bows are golf clubs


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Lol I can imagine


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

The more expensive aluminum bows get, the closer the resale gap will get. Percentage wise it's probably pretty close eh?


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

iceman14 said:


> The more expensive aluminum bows get, the closer the resale gap will get. Percentage wise it's probably pretty close eh?


Yeah, the gap is getting closer, but the overall resale values are worse....people don't want to spend $ 600-700 for a used bow when they can spend a few hundred more and get a new one....and I don't blame them.....I couldn't even sell my 2012 Carbon Matrix on here for $500.....ended up practically giving it away to a friend...oh well....live and learn


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## kdog23 (Jan 30, 2012)

hunter11 said:


> You are correct, but having owned 2 of them, I can tell you good luck when you want to sell it....resale sucks....and I never did understand why a warmer riser was a big deal.....do people actually hold their bow when they're in their stand or blind?.....I know I havn't sine 1979 when my Dad and his business partner patented and sold the first bow holders....


some of us are almost totally spot and stalk which means the bow is in the hands almost the entire time...


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

hunter11 said:


> Yeah, the gap is getting closer, but the overall resale values are worse....people don't want to spend $ 600-700 for a used bow when they can spend a few hundred more and get a new one....and I don't blame them.....I couldn't even sell my 2012 Carbon Matrix on here for $500.....ended up practically giving it away to a friend...oh well....live and learn


That's because Hoyts resale isn't that great either.


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

kdog23 said:


> some of us are almost totally spot and stalk which means the bow is in the hands almost the entire time...


I knew someone out West would say that....and you are right and that is the perfect niche for a carbon bow


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## EdFalter (Mar 16, 2011)

Yea. That's one ugly #### bow


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

kdog23 said:


> some of us are almost totally spot and stalk which means the bow is in the hands almost the entire time...


That's why I haven't given up on my Carbon Knight, can carry it all day.


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## Trying Archer (Dec 8, 2013)

I'll sell you a like new Decree for 750 bare! Barely shot still has the factory grease leaking out of the limb pockets


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## w6wat (Apr 11, 2015)

Dowatchalike66 said:


> Hoyt engineers have to be laughing at this. New design or not, innovative or not, it's hideous and it looks like a cheap copy of a Hoyt. Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed. It will be their biggest failure in a long while. PSE put out so many great bows over the last few years but this is laughable.


Well, actually,maybe a copy of a Martin who in fact invented the bridged riser and Hoyt copied. Or, PSE could be revisiting the carbon bows they made in the mid -90's, or the bridged risers they had back in the day.....


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

Toddk31 said:


> No PSE's all have a nice finish, unlike Hoyt. They all suck.


Intelligence at it's best! They have an insane amount of world championship wins but they are junk. Gee that would make the PSE's they keep beating what then?


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

Any chance the PSE would hold up to the Hoyt Truck Torture test?


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

yeah they are not made in China....lol


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## foreveryung (Mar 18, 2011)

> and I never did understand why a warmer riser was a big deal.....do people actually hold their bow when they're in their stand or blind?....


I usually do. Most often, when in a stand, the extra movement to take a bow from a hook is not wanted. And when it's 20-50 degrees, there is a difference.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

Billincamo said:


> Intelligence at it's best! They have an insane amount of world championship wins but they are junk. Gee that would make the PSE's they keep beating what then?


I think he is talking about Hoyts finish, not the bow itself .


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

foreveryung said:


> I usually do. Most often, when in a stand, the extra movement to take a bow from a hook is not wanted. And when it's 20-50 degrees, there is a difference.


They make bow holders that can hold your bow right at your finger tips that don't require any extra movement.
There isn't anything that would keep my hands warm holding any bow for 10 hrs that's insane.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Sugarcoat it all you want Pete should fire his whole development staff. No one is going to buy this bow guaranteed.QUOTE]
> 
> I don't want one but somebody will, heck some people even bought the No Cam!


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

archerdad said:


> LOL resale sucks on all bows.


not traditional bows


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Very true I should have said a compound


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## thebeav (Jul 1, 2005)

Anyone have a video of shooting the new carbon air yet?


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

highwaynorth said:


> I realize the reason for carbon is reduced bow weight but they also claim a stiffer shooting platform.
> Stiffer Is better as long as it doesn't break.


Stiffer materials normally transmit vibrations better. 
So PSE filling the new carbon tubes with vibration dampening material, was a very smart move.

Carbon break? Carbon is stronger than steel and massively stronger than aluminum.
Aluminum, because it is a softer metal, does kill vibrations to some degree.
Aluminum is light, this is why it's use is popular for risers. 
The problem is, in the past, there has been breakage and injuries. 
Designs have improved, but this problem has bought Aluminum's imperfections to light.
Aluminum is not going away, but Carbon is lighter and tougher, and has proven its self as the future for state of the art bows.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

Luke Cool said:


> Stiffer materials normally transmit vibrations better.
> So PSE filling the new carbon tubes with vibration dampening material, was a very smart move.
> 
> Carbon break? Carbon is stronger than steel and massively stronger than aluminum.
> ...


The only machined risers I have ever seen break is when High Country made the Ultra Extreme. It was made from 7075 aluminum
and they machined the riser out too much below the grip and it would snap in half. I had it happen to me twice, High Country quit
making that model and replaced it with the Machined Supreme. Other than that I have never seen or heard of a machined riser
breaking or causing injuries as you say.


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

highwaynorth said:


> The only machined risers I have ever seen break is when High Country made the Ultra Extreme. It was made from 7075 aluminum
> and they machined the riser out too much below the grip and it would snap in half. I had it happen to me twice, High Country quit
> making that model and replaced it with the Machined Supreme. Other than that I have never seen or heard of a machined riser
> breaking or causing injuries as you say.


I've just read about it quite a few times in the forums from people like you.
Other than that, I have no documentation. 
If the bow gets modified or abused, riser failure is something you should worry about. 
And I would never run over one with a car, then try to use it.
I have no way of knowing what caused the failures, as the information is usually very limited.
It is not a big problem, incidents are rare. 
I myself, have owned quite a few bows and have never had a riser brake, 
but my bows are well made and well cared for.

Gluing a carbon riser together also worries me a little.
But making a one piece carbon riser sounds like it would be a very light and solid riser.


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## GROSEN (Dec 29, 2014)

Luke Cool said:


> Gluing a carbon riser together also worries me a little.
> But making a one piece carbon riser sounds like it would be a very light and solid riser.



The way Hoyt does carbon on bows are way better that a full cast riser. If you have airbubles in the cast the riser have a weak point and aint nerly as strong.. 

Carbon and glue works greate together. im not worried about it at all. but a full casted bow i would never shoot. dont know what process the Air has gone thru. but if its a full compress cast there will moste likely be bubles in it..

Even the bodywork on lamborghinis have weakpoints that are fixed with plastic padding..


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

I'll be looking forward to trying one this spring that I get for 5-600 off the used market.


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## KimberTac1911 (Feb 27, 2012)

GROSEN said:


> The way Hoyt does carbon on bows are way better that a full cast riser. If you have airbubles in the cast the riser have a weak point and aint nerly as strong..
> 
> Carbon and glue works greate together. im not worried about it at all. but a full casted bow i would never shoot. dont know what process the Air has gone thru. but if its a full compress cast there will moste likely be bubles in it..
> 
> Even the bodywork on lamborghinis have weakpoints that are fixed with plastic padding..


Makes you wonder if the vibration dampning material they used to fill carbon is for that reason


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## saskhic (Aug 14, 2011)

All I have to say is pse release a 35 inch version at the ata!


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## GROSEN (Dec 29, 2014)

KimberTac1911 said:


> Makes you wonder if the vibration dampning material they used to fill carbon is for that reason



I bet it is. Pick up a drinking straw and bend it. Thats no problem. 

Now fill The straw with water, sand or whatever you like and bend it again. Sure it would bent again. But NOT as easy as befor.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Sorry if this was already posted. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tg81nIzFuE


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

Mr-Mike said:


> Sorry if this was already posted.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tg81nIzFuE


Yeah its been posted somewhere here. That vid probably doesn't do the CA much justice.


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## deadduck357 (Dec 29, 2013)

saskhic said:


> All I have to say is pse release a 35 inch version at the ata!


34" or 35".


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

Ok. Sorry. I do agree with your opinion though. Certainly the bow will be more impressive than that. Even with how the guy had it, it's on track for making well over 300fps with a more common set-up. 275 with 380gr @ 58lbs is not bad.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

Mr-Mike said:


> Ok. Sorry. I do agree with your opinion though. Certainly the bow will be more impressive than that. Even with how the guy had it, it's on track for making well over 300fps with a more common set-up. 275 with 380gr @ 58lbs is not bad.


With a 28" draw.


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

highwaynorth said:


> With a 28" draw.


good point.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Just for reference the original X force I had shot a 412 grain arrow at 58 pounds 28 inch draw was about 285


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## upserman (Oct 13, 2006)

Have you guys seen this one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESPZY5G4tg


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

archerdad said:


> Just for reference the original X force I had shot a 412 grain arrow at 58 pounds 28 inch draw was about 285


that sounds just a tad optimistic but nonetheless, fast.



upserman said:


> Have you guys seen this one?
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESPZY5G4tg


Infinitely better video. I am still wanting one.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Mr-Mike said:


> that sounds just a tad optimistic but nonetheless, fast.
> 
> 
> 
> Infinitely better video. I am still wanting one.


Why would it be optimistic? that's what it shot


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

archerdad said:


> Why would it be optimistic? that's what it shot


Chronos are finicky things. Anyway, don't sweat it, I am . I am willing to accept the figure (not that that's meaningful in any way  ), it's not absurd by any means. I have personally seen that speed from a newer bow with 5 more lbs of DW, an inch more draw and a slightly lighter arrow. I don't know what the efficiency is for that bow (or a 2008 period bow of any model), but I have seen test data for the x force with a 420gr arrow at over 70lbs and over 30" DL recording 316fps. Extrapolate what you might form that however, you are certainly within a reasonable margin of error. Just blurted out an initial gut reaction.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Ah. Well the CA is rated for 340. And the HF xforce was 347 so I thought it would be a reasonably fair comparison


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## MELLY-MEL (Dec 22, 2008)

Looking forward trying one out soon hopefully


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## Mr-Mike (Apr 24, 2015)

archerdad said:


> Ah. Well the CA is rated for 340. And the HF xforce was 347 so I thought it would be a reasonably fair comparison


Certainly is Sir.


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## Raydyne (Nov 1, 2015)

Shut up and take my money!


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