# The One General Thing I Wish



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I see so many threads where people talk about shooting and all this work on surprise shots being nice but they are going to use a thumb trigger when hunting because what if I have to punch the shot because something happens. I have thought about this for years and even when I first became proficient with a hinge I still hunted with my old trusty silverhorn index finger release just in case I needed to punch a quick shot. 

Problem is something happened, there came a time when I actually made this decision. I shoot competitively and find myself on podiums from time to time at asa events so I have some big shots to make and I have had some nice bucks to kill, but what I am finding is that once you make the decision to never send a shot to the target that you already know is poor for any reason there is a change in your mind. 

The change is a good one to say the least, why? Because you no longer have to mentally survive or fix problems, there is nothing worse than having a good hold on the target and the hinge isn't firing and you start worrying that it isn't going to fire and the pin is perfect and well maybe if I just add a little pressure to my fingers or pull into the wall or relax a little it will fire and about then the pin moves off the x and you panic a little to fix it and the release fires and you miss. 

Just typing that poor shot makes me want to puke, I shot hundreds of them per month for years for no reason other than poor mental approach to shooting. The moment you make the decision to let down once the shot window has run out or something is wrong there is a sense of relaxation about your shooting because you know that you don't have to spend the mental effort to fix problems and try to survive your shooting.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The peace of mind comes within a few shooting sessions once you realize the simplicity of your new mind set, before you were always on stand by to fix or correct or add or subtract. So even when things were going smoothly your defenses were up and running ready to pounce on whatever popped up and fix it. Don't kid yourself, this mental approach bleeds over into what you think is good and contaminates it turning it into something foggy and unclear. 

Once you make the decision to run your engine smoothly and float and allow the arrow to either leave or let down things change, You no longer have tons of quick fixes to all the little issues that come up that may or may not work. You simply execute your preset plan and when it isn't working out you let down.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> I see so many threads where people talk about shooting and all this work on surprise shots being nice but they are going to use a thumb trigger when hunting because what if I have to punch the shot because something happens. I have thought about this for years and even when I first became proficient with a hinge I still hunted with my old trusty silverhorn index finger release just in case I needed to punch a quick shot.
> .


I think many of the hunting bad shots come from not knowing the trigger. Too dang light and you can't feel it. Even light, "know" your trigger and better things come. Most bent out of shape shot I ever took hunting; Braced between my ladder and close by tree, hanging out some, and "threading the needle" through saplings and brush to drop one of the biggest does I ever shot. I knew my trigger, knew where it was, a Scott Mongoose index release. Haven't hunted with my Scott since 2013, but practiced a few shots since. Maybe 12 shots in 2014 and never really hunted, just sat in the tree watching God's divine creatures, squirrels, rabbits and deer. This year, still weak from having my shoulder overhauled, I got off a dozen or so shots (liked to pulled myself in half to get to full draw) and the Scott Mongoose went off like magic. Just touch the trigger and let the shot happen is all I do.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Once you make the decision to run your engine smoothly and float and allow the arrow to either leave or let down things change, You no longer have tons of quick fixes to all the little issues that come up that may or may not work. You simply execute your preset plan and when it isn't working out you let down.


That does not always work out in the real world. I'm thinking specifically in some target situations like FITA or the LAS Classis where you are shooting against a very short shot clock. 

Generally, you have plenty of time to get your 3 or 6 arrows off with sufficient time for a single let down and reset. However, there are those times when you may have used that one let down and for some reason you last shot of the emd may be hanging up or your sight picture is starting to deteiorate and you know, with no time on the clock for another let down, you have to make a choice between letting down and taking a zero or taking your chances on a less than perfect shot and probably at least scoring a 7 to 9 or possible a lucky x. 

Most competitive shooters I know will take the shot and then go home to practice out what caused the hang up so it is less prone to happen again.

If you're meaning to pose these examples solely or primarily to a hunting scenario, then it probably should be discussed in the bowhunting forum....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Maybe some should see the shot before taking the shot. Speed event? Try 4 arrows in one minute, the ASA Indoor DAIR event. I've cleaned the one minute end so many times and had time to look at the clock before the buzzer sounded. I got my friend to shot a DAIR and him scared to death because he was using a hinge. I said; "Hey, you know it's quick, but you know what to do, just do it and forget the clock." He cleaned both the upper and lower one minute ends.

Oh, yeah the slowest time you have is two minutes to get off 4 shots. Okay, you can't shoot the same point zone twice. Like 2 arrows in the 14 and only 
1 arrows counts and other a zero. Lower 12 shot on the lower line and upper 12 on the upper line. The 11 is scored 10, but if the NFAA or IBO then 11. The 8 is all over. Miss the 14 a bit you have a 8 and still can go for the 14. Same with the 12s and what line, upper or lower.
It's a thinking game and one that allows spotters, so something of a team shoot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Actually montigre I am finding that it does relate to the timed events, why? 

Because when you are a shooter who only knows what it is like to shoot knowing that at any time you can just punch and the arrow is gone you always have that option ready in your approach to shooting and it hovers like a huge thunderstorm ready to attack. It is always there and has always been there so you don't know what it is like to shoot without it there.

What I am suggesting to people is that letting go of the option of punching or forcing totally cleans up your mental approach to each and every shot you will ever take again and gives you a totally new feeling to shooting that you have never experienced. 

Once you have shot this way for a while with a clean approach to execution your shooting becomes effortless and it just runs and sends the arrow on its way.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I used to carry a index finger release in my 3d stool just in case something came up such as a moving target, well I took it out of my stool over a year ago and it was scary to not have it in there at first because in the back of my mind it was part of the "SOMETHING MIGHT HAPPEN WHERE i NEED TO PUNCH".

This summer my buddy d.short and I went to a shoot and got all the way around to the end and there was a 27 yard down hill doe on a cable shot, it wasn't just slowly moving it was stinking fast and here I am with my hinge. He even said you can use my thumb trigger if you want. I told him no I am going to go ahead and do my best with my hinge. We got to shoot it twice and I got a 12 and a 8 on the shot, I knew how to shoot those shots and to just come to full draw and execute a nice smooth but quick execution of my firing engine. The arrows left my bow and hit really good both times. At no time did I think I have to punch my hinge or use another release to punch it and survive, by the way my buddy got a zero both shots punching his thumb trigger.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

montigre said:


> That does not always work out in the real world. I'm thinking specifically in some target situations like FITA or the LAS Classis where you are shooting against a very short shot clock.
> 
> Generally, you have plenty of time to get your 3 or 6 arrows off with sufficient time for a single let down and reset. However, there are those times when you may have used that one let down and for some reason you last shot of the emd may be hanging up or your sight picture is starting to deteiorate and you know, with no time on the clock for another let down, you have to make a choice between letting down and taking a zero or taking your chances on a less than perfect shot and probably at least scoring a 7 to 9 or possible a lucky x.
> 
> ...


I agree. I count out ten seconds in my head between shots from the time I click my release onto the d-loop, and that leaves me with an average of 35 seconds remaining on a timed Vegas face. A little over one fourth of the allotted time, which means I have time for one let down. 

Never letting one go you should have let down is great when you are practicing, but figuring out how to reset at full draw to get back in the X is crucial in my opinion.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

montigre said:


> That does not always work out in the real world. I'm thinking specifically in some target situations like FITA or the LAS Classis where you are shooting against a very short shot clock.
> 
> Generally, you have plenty of time to get your 3 or 6 arrows off with sufficient time for a single let down and reset. However, there are those times when you may have used that one let down and for some reason you last shot of the emd may be hanging up or your sight picture is starting to deteiorate and you know, with no time on the clock for another let down, you have to make a choice between letting down and taking a zero or taking your chances on a less than perfect shot and probably at least scoring a 7 to 9 or possible a lucky x.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree also. I have found that there are error bars on my routine within which it's not necessary to cancel the shot, especially if I'm running out of time. If it's minor enough, it's ok to "repair" the mistake and go ahead and proceed with the shot. To me, that's part of coping with higher pressure situations, there are times when I have to compromise between letting down two or three times to achieve absolute perfection vs getting the shot off at all with an acceptable outcome at the target. 

I also use technological aids to help me with this. I use a Carter Evolution release aid which isn't what you'd call "punchable". Rather, forcing a shot with it is more of a "heave" than a "punch", a movement involving large muscles and not little fingers. So I'm far less prone to commanding the shot with it in a pressure situation because it's so much more deliberate, though I can do it if I have to. Also, it's less particular about absolute perfection in the position of the hand. It will still penalize you slightly if you aren't gripping it exactly the same each time, but it's not as damning as, say, a hinge or a thumb style release in that regard. 

DM


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

What do You do when your in the tree stand and have a deer in front of you and don't have the time to abort the engine and start over? I understand letting down when time is permitted so one doesn't pick up bad habits. Do you folks have another firing engine to use for hunting?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

TDS said:


> What do You do when your in the tree stand and have a deer in front of you and don't have the time to abort the engine and start over? I understand letting down when time is permitted so one doesn't pick up bad habits. Do you folks have another firing engine to use for hunting?


You want a good shot on a deer or a bad one? I really don't even like to hear "punching" the trigger when it's necessary. It's never necessary. You develop a shot you stay with it until it's the only shot you know.

Getting off the subject, but 3 years ago I shot two does within two minutes. I dropped the first one, nocked a arrow just in case and here comes the second doe running straight at me. I don't remember drawing, just that the pin was dead center on the front of her chest. No thinking of the trigger, the shot went off and a perfect hit, fletch deep. Both shots were 28 yards, one standing, one running at me.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last night I read through the thread and really enjoyed the responses by cbrunson and the other contributors, I actually had things I wanted to say but I wanted to sleep on them and see if the thread progressed further and then add something myself.

First of all, being frozen up and not able to fire is caused by many different little things and one of them is the focus of this discussion. The moment that you realize that you can just punch the shot you have given your hand the permission that it needed to freeze up because at a moment notice if need be you can just punch through that frozen hand and get rid of the arrow. 

Now why do I not have issues with freezing:

1. I run a smooth engine that doesn't get paused and it doesn't depend on a perfect pin location, it simply runs. 

2. I have a slow hinge and a competition hinge that is set faster than the slow one, So I train with both of them for a reason. My firing engine must run longer to fire the slow hinge and this develops a engine that produces more than enough rotation in my hinge so that when I shoot my competition hinge I am guaranteed that it is going to fire because it is set faster so if I run my engine the arrow will leave the bow. 

In years past I really struggled because I had all of my hinges set exactly the same to get the same feel even though they were different brands and what this did was it allowed my firing engine to only do just enough to get the job done so then when I was nervous or on uneven ground or anything weird was going on then I would be standing there wishing it would fire but it wouldn't, that is the moment where you feel powerless and in need to do something extra to get the arrow on its way and when there is a deer there or the clock is counting down the desire or desperation to get the arrow on its way is what is going to screw up your shooting really bad. 

So what I have done is again made the decision to run a smooth engine and float on the target and send smoothly executed arrows to the target or let down, since making this decision it has allowed me to change my training in areas that were not open such as the slow hinge and competition hinge where I can train my engine to run long and smooth way past what is needed with my competition hinge. 

The answers are right in front of you but when you allow yourself to justify punching or dumping the release to send a arrow on its way you will be blind to those things right in front of you and never get to use them. I would have never been able to use the slow hinge and competition hinge to my advantage in this way unless I had this mental approach in effect.


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> You want a good shot on a deer or a bad one? I really don't even like to hear "punching" the trigger when it's necessary. It's never necessary. You develop a shot you stay with it until it's the only shot you know.
> 
> Getting off the subject, but 3 years ago I shot two does within two minutes. I dropped the first one, nocked a arrow just in case and here comes the second doe running straight at me. I don't remember drawing, just that the pin was dead center on the front of her chest. No thinking of the trigger, the shot went off and a perfect hit, fletch deep. Both shots were 28 yards, one standing, one running at me.


Of course I want a good shot... I am one of the rookies here and when I hear the pros talking about having to let down when the engine isn't firing correctly makes me wonder if there needs to be seperation between the hunting and target shooting technique.

There are plenty of good archery hunters out there that have had plenty success just pulling the trigger.. Sounds to me like one should maybe avoid using back tension/firing engine until you have mastered the technique for hunting..


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

TDS said:


> Of course I want a good shot... I am one of the rookies here and when I hear the pros talking about having to let down when the engine isn't firing correctly makes me wonder if there needs to be seperation between the hunting and target shooting technique.
> 
> There are plenty of good archery hunters out there that have had plenty success just pulling the trigger.. Sounds to me like one should maybe avoid using back tension/firing engine until you have mastered the technique for hunting..


There is no difference between hunting and target shooting. If the shot isn't there you let down. One thing my 3D group does, we congratulate one who lets down. Okay, he made the right decision and we even call it a "great shot." Deer hunting is a singular thing. God's creatures. One should want a humane shot, one where the animal isn't going to suffer any longer than absolutely necessary. Too brushy, forget it until the deer clears. Deer is moving too fast, won't hold still, let it go. I've shot 2 deer that were moving right and left of me. I've shot enough moving targets to give proper lead on a deer. Both shots were in the wide open, clear as a bell. I had a real nice buck come in on me so quick there was no shot. He was 5 yards tops away from me when he stopped and there wasn't a hole to put my arrow through. I couldn't hold forever waiting for him to move. I let down and he rushed off. I didn't feel the least bit bad. It's called hunting.

There's true back tension and there's back tension. I use back tension with a index release and my thumb release. One thing I do is "find" the trigger, know where it is and know it. My Scott Mongoose is light and no adjusting it accept for travel, but I know it, feel it. All I do is aim and draw with my back (back tension). You don't think trigger, you don't think pull. Just having your finger on the trigger and adding back tension will fire the release. Yep, you wait for the release to fire, but it will fire and you have to have confidence that it will fire or you're punching the trigger.
Dead of winter, freezing, my hunt gloves do not have a index finger. Yep. I cut off every index finger on my gloves. I want to know where that trigger is.

My thumb releases are set heavy and heavy enough I can well feel the barrel and none of them go off. Thumb on the barrel I just draw with my back and the release fires. There is no thinking to squeeze on the barrel, it just happens, the shot happens. 

This type of back tension can be learned in one shooting session and then use it until it's automatic. The one thing is knowing the trigger, hopefully heavy enough you can feel it and the release not fire. 

True back tension is another animal and more and more people are going away from it. No way do I believe someone can learn true back tension with anything other than a hinge release. One of the accepted hook releases is the Whalen's Hooker. The hook is stationary, more a kin to a ledge release, but still works with true back tension. Want to read up on hinges contact Padgett.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have won tons of tournaments and even been in the top 10 at a asa national tournament pulling a trigger and never letting down, I have killed deer and wounded deer pulling a trigger. In fact I shot for over 30 years doing these things and all I can say is that now that I have became a real shooter and accepted the methods and lessons to be learned I am never never never going to go back to doing things the other way.


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> There is no difference between hunting and target shooting. If the shot isn't there you let down. One thing my 3D group does, we congratulate one who lets down. Okay, he made the right decision and we even call it a "great shot." Deer hunting is a singular thing. God's creatures. One should want a humane shot, one where the animal isn't going to suffer any longer than absolutely necessary. Too brushy, forget it until the deer clears. Deer is moving too fast, won't hold still, let it go. I've shot 2 deer that were moving right and left of me. I've shot enough moving targets to give proper lead on a deer. Both shots were in the wide open, clear as a bell. I had a real nice buck come in on me so quick there was no shot. He was 5 yards tops away from me when he stopped and there wasn't a hole to put my arrow through. I couldn't hold forever waiting for him to move. I let down and he rushed off. I didn't feel the least bit bad. It's called hunting.
> 
> There's true back tension and there's back tension. I use back tension with a index release and my thumb release. One thing I do is "find" the trigger, know where it is and know it. My Scott Mongoose is light and no adjusting it accept for travel, but I know it, feel it. All I do is aim and draw with my back (back tension). You don't think trigger, you don't think pull. Just having your finger on the trigger and adding back tension will fire the release. Yep, you wait for the release to fire, but it will fire and you have to have confidence that it will fire or you're punching the trigger.
> Dead of winter, freezing, my hunt gloves do not have a index finger. Yep. I cut off every index finger on my gloves. I want to know where that trigger is.
> ...


I don't disagree with what your saying here.. I am just adding that plenty of folks have made humane shots while using there own methods that would make most of the target pro's cringe..

I have been working on my firing engine using Saturday night special thumb button as well as the True Ball HBC for 2 years and my shooting has improved. Not trying to argue with anyone here just wondering if the commitment to a perfect firing engine that one will never have to abort is necessary to hunt and make humane shots.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The guy in this thread that is causing me to think really hard is cbrunson, he is a strong shooter like me and I like listening to what he has to say and he is on the other side of the fence on this subject. All I can say is that I have been on his side of the fence and I don't like it because of the stress and overly focused feeling you have to have to manage each and every shot during the warm up and scoring round, it is simply mentally draining and hard to force yourself to do it. Some of my wins and victories have came when doing it that way and I still enjoy thinking about them but I am not going back there. Why? Because I have had other experiences since then that were sheer joys to have doing it this way and my shooting was allowed to be on a much higher level without hardly any mental forced effort.

Interesting conversation, I am in recovery mode right now and not shooting. When I get cleared to shoot this winter I am going to be over 4 months from touching a bow and I can't wait to see how fast I can recover and be running on all 8 cylinders. I do plan to execute cleanly and let down when something isn't right and that is about it.


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

Padgett said:


> The guy in this thread that is causing me to think really hard is cbrunson, he is a strong shooter like me and I like listening to what he has to say and he is on the other side of the fence on this subject. All I can say is that I have been on his side of the fence and I don't like it because of the stress and overly focused feeling you have to have to manage each and every shot during the warm up and scoring round, it is simply mentally draining and hard to force yourself to do it. Some of my wins and victories have came when doing it that way and I still enjoy thinking about them but I am not going back there. Why? Because I have had other experiences since then that were sheer joys to have doing it this way and my shooting was allowed to be on a much higher level without hardly any mental forced effort.
> 
> Interesting conversation, I am in recovery mode right now and not shooting. When I get cleared to shoot this winter I am going to be over 4 months from touching a bow and I can't wait to see how fast I can recover and be running on all 8 cylinders. I do plan to execute cleanly and let down when something isn't right and that is about it.


Padgett, you have been a great help to me in getting started with my firing engine through PM's as well as what you and others have shared on this site.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Don't misunderstand my position. I believe it is of utmost importance to practice without letting bad shots go. That's not what I was referring to. 

When you've gone through the work to get your hold and release execution working well, you have to start working on the next phase of competition. This includes endurance, pressure, and using a timer. I will use the timer on my phone as a tool to give myself as long as I can between shots within reason. There is simply not enough time to let down three times in the two minutes allowed for Vegas. 

Of course you shouldn't need to let down that many times in an end. In fact, one or two let downs in the whole game is unwanted. I've seen guys panic on the line and try to reset with 15 seconds left. It usually ends badly. I've done it myself. 

The part where I'm agreeing with montigre is that if you have let down already and you draw back again with 15 seconds on the clock and it is not holding very well or it just doesn't feel good, a nine is better than a zero. (In competition, not practice)


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

TDS said:


> I don't disagree with what your saying here.. I am just adding that plenty of folks have made humane shots while using there own methods that would make most of the target pro's cringe..
> 
> I have been working on my firing engine using Saturday night special thumb button as well as the True Ball HBC for 2 years and my shooting has improved. Not trying to argue with anyone here just wondering if the commitment to a perfect firing engine that one will never have to abort is necessary to hunt and make humane shots.


There is always the ethical debate. It comes down to whether you feel like you can make the shot based on your ability or not. I have never thought about my firing engine while at full draw on an animal. I've practiced enough before the season to know that I will not miss. Target archery is a game of fractions of an inch and endurance. I can lose a tournament with 60 shots that would all slice open the blood pump on a deer.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

montigre said:


> That does not always work out in the real world. I'm thinking specifically in some target situations like FITA or the LAS Classis where you are shooting against a very short shot clock.
> 
> Generally, you have plenty of time to get your 3 or 6 arrows off with sufficient time for a single let down and reset. However, there are those times when you may have used that one let down and for some reason you last shot of the emd may be hanging up or your sight picture is starting to deteiorate and you know, with no time on the clock for another let down, you have to make a choice between letting down and taking a zero or taking your chances on a less than perfect shot and probably at least scoring a 7 to 9 or possible a lucky x.
> 
> ...


^^^This.



cbrunson said:


> I agree. I count out ten seconds in my head between shots from the time I click my release onto the d-loop, and that leaves me with an average of 35 seconds remaining on a timed Vegas face. A little over one fourth of the allotted time, which means I have time for one let down.
> 
> Never letting one go you should have let down is great when you are practicing, but figuring out how to reset at full draw to get back in the X is crucial in my opinion.


I have time for two let downs on a five spot if I do my job right. My closest to the buzzer shot was a lucky X with one second left after drawing at the 14 second mark - I still shot my process albeit a tad rushed. If the wind is gusting at 90 meters in a FITA, 5 minutes is not long enough for 6 arrows and I have "ripped" the last arrow a few times. It still takes up to ten seconds to reset at full draw for me - if I haven't lost proper full draw feel. 

There are definitely times when damage control is required for competitive target shooting.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> I can lose a tournament with 60 shots that would all slice open the blood pump on a deer.


Not to change the subject, but when an exceptional quote is made it really needs to be recognized! This one is pure gold. Sig-worthy actually. 

Taking it back to the original topic; cbrunson, can you ever imagine letting down on a deer because your shot didn't go off in your shot window? For some reason that just strikes me as funny.

I'm sorry, carry on. :teeth:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Not to change the subject, but when an exceptional quote is made it really needs to be recognized! This one is pure gold. Sig-worthy actually.
> 
> Taking it back to the original topic; cbrunson, can you ever imagine letting down on a deer because your shot didn't go off in your shot window? For some reason that just strikes me as funny.
> 
> I'm sorry, carry on. :teeth:


Well you’d think by reading the bowhunting section on a daily basis that every ethical hunter should be able to hit a golf ball at 60 yards with 180 ft/lbs of KE, to kill an animal with a vital zone the size of a basketball at 20 yards. :lol:


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Padgett said:


> I have won tons of tournaments and even been in the top 10 at a asa national tournament pulling a trigger and never letting down, I have killed deer and wounded deer pulling a trigger. In fact I shot for over 30 years doing these things and all I can say is that now that I have became a real shooter and accepted the methods and lessons to be learned I am never never never going to go back to doing things the other way.


Maybe I'm misreading this, but it comes off to me that you're not a "real" shooter unless you shoot a hinge. I'm sure that isn't what was intended, more along the lines that release type isn't important, but proper function of the release sequence is what is important...hunting or target doesn't make a difference.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

No, absolutely not. I actually see all releases as a simple tool to send a arrow on its way. 

I was referring to me personally becoming a real shooter, I define that based on me studying this sport over the years and seeing the things that I have decided to accomplish with my aiming and execution and form etc. It took me years to learn the lessons and actually become proficient with them so that I could say that I have personally become a real shooter. 

There are days in my past when I was a puncher that I put up scores that I could have beaten myself at my current level, that is what was really hard to let go of methods and approaches that every once in a while could be maintained and produce a good score. Right now I am 100% happy with my shooting every day, I really don't have bad days anymore that I have to forget about when it comes to my shooting because I have cleaned up my mental approaches to the point where things are simple and straight forward and I am not hiding issues or ignoring them.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like this discussion and that is why I started it this week, it is hunting season and I was kind of waiting for the deer season to start to start this thread. 

Some of you need to take a hard look at your stand on hunting and see what it is doing to your shooting, why? Because it tells volumes about the truth of your approach to things. The moment that you say to yourself that if I need to I can always just punch, the moment you say I shoot a thumb trigger or a index finger release when I hunt because I might need to just dump the trigger because the deer might do something and I might need to get rid of the arrow right now. 

The fact that those options exist in your shooting means that you are spending a lot of effort to keep them under control and in the back of your mind you are always trying to make a good shot but you have to keep them ready to go and at a moments notice when the deer moves his head because something is wrong you have to make the decision to I continue with my good shot or just punch. This is the overlap that I have decided to get rid of in my shooting and in fact there isn't any overlap because the bad options don't exist anymore.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Padgett, just because someone shoots a thumb trigger (hunting or target) doesn't mean they do so in order that they can dump the trigger if need be. It has MANY advantages in the hunting venue that have nothing to do with the firing process. 

Just something I thought worthy of sharing. :cheers:


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> The fact that those options exist in your shooting means that you are spending a lot of effort to keep them under control and in the back of your mind you are always trying to make a good shot but you have to keep them ready to go and at a moments notice when the deer moves his head because something is wrong you have to make the decision to I continue with my good shot or just punch. This is the overlap that I have decided to get rid of in my shooting and in fact there isn't any overlap because the bad options don't exist anymore.


This reminds me of something I heard Dan McCarthy say about shooting a thumb trigger style release. Thumb triggers are notorious for their "punchability", so what he says he does is practice his method for an unanticipated shot so thoroughly that the option to punch it simply disappears. I'm sort of paraphrasing, but his goal is either an unanticipated shot or just no shot at all. 

It would seem great minds like Padgett and Dan M. think alike lol!

Speaking for myself, I'm still a paper shooter and still use technology to help me avoid command-shooting (my aforementioned Evolution release), so I couldn't really address a bowhunter's situation. I've experienced running out of time on the shooting line many times, but not the buck of a lifetime on the line type of pressure. 

Great thread, learning tons here....

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> Well you’d think by reading the bowhunting section on a daily basis that every ethical hunter should be able to hit a golf ball at 60 yards with 180 ft/lbs of KE, to kill an animal with a vital zone the size of a basketball at 20 yards. :lol:


Yes, you'd think that even in General Discussion and why I get ticked off about "super tuning" and "super arrows." Hog Wash!

Damn! All these years, all these much faster bows and the average kill distance for whitetail deer remains 19 yards. I posted of that one bare shaft arrow, chopped off shorter than my regular arrow, ends not squared, bent point and nock turned every direction to pizzzz off spine indexers. I forget who, but he wanted me to post it to start a "war" in general discussion. I told him nope. If I was going to post a "junk" arrow it would be cut off with a hack saw and ends angled so the sides of the insert and nock would show. And I'd show that "junk" arrow right in the X ring. Bet if I stuck a fixed broadhead on it and drilled a few 3D centers I'd have the "perfectionists" screaming from here to hell and back.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Now, I have been waiting to actually give my options that I use hunting and when shooting indoor so here they are.

I spend tens of thousands of shots nailing down the feel that I want to feel when shooting perfect shots for competition, that is the whole purpose of my training and 99% of my shooting is done doing nothing but this.

But

That other 1% of training does include practice where I work on a timer that is running out of time for indoor competitions and a deer that is walking fast or a deer that is spooked or a deer that is going to walk through a 5 inch window in the brush and I have to execute a shot when he paused in there. In the beginning when I started this 1% training I was still hunting with a index finger release for the same reasons that many people do because I needed that option to punch but each hunting season and indoor season that passed by I started to see that I just didn't need it anymore.

So the training existed around finding a firing enigine that was able to produce smooth rotation of the hinge easier than my competition engine, I found one and used it for quite some time but as time went by finally I found that my competition firing engine was still my best one and that all I had to do was mentally switch from perfect shot mode to a slightly quicker execution of the release mode. 

I learned this by working on my shot window by accident, I do training drills where I slow down my execution to shoot in the later half of my shot window and in the middle and in the first half of the shot window. All it takes is a very slight change mentally and I could vary my rate of execution without changing my firing engine to another one. I have my firing engine designed to produce more than enough rotation to fire my competition hinge or my slow training hinge so by speeding up the rate that I execute by just a little bit I can send a arrow on its way within a very short amount of time using the same clean approach to shooting as normal. 

Once I focused on the problem of the shot timer counting down or the deer acting funny and finding a way to execute normally I now had a plan of action for when those shots arise. When I am going to go to a indoor shoot I do like cbrunson suggests and I practice shooting and letting down and then only having 15 or so seconds left and needing to make a shot and having a game plan that is simple and something you have practiced is beyond valuable.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Yes, you'd think that even in General Discussion and why I get ticked off about "super tuning" and "super arrows." Hog Wash!
> 
> Damn! All these years, all these much faster bows and the average kill distance for whitetail deer remains 19 yards. I posted of that one bare shaft arrow, chopped off shorter than my regular arrow, ends not squared, bent point and nock turned every direction to pizzzz off spine indexers. I forget who, but he wanted me to post it to start a "war" in general discussion. I told him nope. If I was going to post a "junk" arrow it would be cut off with a hack saw and ends angled so the sides of the insert and nock would show. And I'd show that "junk" arrow right in the X ring. Bet if I stuck a fixed broadhead on it and drilled a few 3D centers I'd have the "perfectionists" screaming from here to hell and back.


Well, you know, we shot much worse out of much more primitive bows for millions of years of prehistory. We made it, so it must have worked.... 

DM


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett, I know you’re an execution guy so let’s throw a little wrench in that machine for a minute.

You practice, practice, practice, until you’ve perfected your release engine to the point where you trust it completely and rarely does it fail you. Now you take that puppy to the tree stand or even a 3D shoot and prepare for the shot of your life.

Do you focus on everything you’ve worked so hard to perfect, to the point that it causes you to hang up and have to let down, or do you focus on holding that pin where you want the arrow to go and let the release do the job you trained it to?

Myself, I’ve never even given my release one iota of thought when I’m drawn on an animal. I’m working towards the same concept with my target shooting since you can get away with much more on the back end than you can on the front. 

I think a lot of times we confuse what happened on a bad shot with a bad release, when the problem was a bad brain that let some minor hang up make us lose focus on the front end. Then we blame the release.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

That is a great question and I don't even think it is a monkey wrench but reality.

I actually don't care if I am thinking about the execution or if it is just running itself, I am a high volume shooter that breaks down my training to sessions where I focus on the execution and other times I focus on other things and just let it do its job. I actually shoot at the exact same level regardless of what I am thinking about. 

When hunting I usually kill around 3 to 5 deer with my bow per season so that is only a max of 5 shots per year with my bow at a animal. During those shots I am looking for a shooting lane with no branches in the way and trying to make sure I have the perfect yardage and finding the perfect place to aim so for those 5 shots my focus is somewhere else and I don't think I have ever had to think about execution. In fact I have hunted with my hinge for two seasons for all shots in the tree stand and even though it was a big commitment to leave my index finger release in the bottom of my pack as a spare once a deer showed up and it was time to make good decisions paying attention to a release and execution of it was the last thing on my mind.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

That is a great question and I don't even think it is a monkey wrench but reality.

I actually don't care if I am thinking about the execution or if it is just running itself, I am a high volume shooter that breaks down my training to sessions where I focus on the execution and other times I focus on other things and just let it do its job. I actually shoot at the exact same level regardless of what I am thinking about. 

When hunting I usually kill around 3 to 5 deer with my bow per season so that is only a max of 5 shots per year with my bow at a animal. During those shots I am looking for a shooting lane with no branches in the way and trying to make sure I have the perfect yardage and finding the perfect place to aim so for those 5 shots my focus is somewhere else and I don't think I have ever had to think about execution. In fact I have hunted with my hinge for two seasons for all shots in the tree stand and even though it was a big commitment to leave my index finger release in the bottom of my pack as a spare once a deer showed up and it was time to make good decisions paying attention to a release and execution of it was the last thing on my mind.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Computer did something funny and it posted twice sorry.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Actually, I remember the last time I punched at a nice buck. It was the day before rifle season 3 years ago and stupid windy with 35 mph wind gusts constantly hitting me, I watched about 4 shooter bucks chasing does about 150 yds away on a tree line. I was sitting on a corn field in north missouri. After 2 hours of watching the bucks go back and forth on the tree line here one of them came straight at me with a doe down a ditch and I got ready, it was so bad that when I stood before grabbing my bow I spent 20 seconds trying to brace my leg on the stand to combat the wind. I got my bow and a little later there he was broadside at 39 yards and I came to full draw and for the next minute my pin got blown off of him up to 15 feet in front of him. I kept waiting for a 1 second break in the wind so I could settle and punch, not one though of actually taking a good shot. it was so freaking bad that I just wanted to see my pin pause on the spot and punch and it just wasn't happening. I finally just did a drive by and let one go from my bow and thank god it missed cleanly. I have felt bad about that decision and entire shot process from the time it left my bow till right now, it just wasn't worth it to hope that my arrow hit well or pray that it hit well or force it to hit well. I can hit a stinking 12 ring at 40 yards almost every time and can't even shoot more than one arrow at a 12 ring when practicing because I hit my own arrow to much and tear them up so allowing myself the option to punch because the situtation required a punch as a excuse to send a poor arrow on its way left the building that day.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I really do look at hunting and target completely differently.
Target, even 3-D with a moving target is still pretty straight forward.
Hunting you may need to draw early, and wait to start your firing engine... Then start it, stop it, and start it again.
This is all fine and dandy as this 1 time (or 5 times etc) will not undo all my training for targets.
Yes, I'll still try to emulate my target engine as best I can. But I'll do it with a thumb trigger because my hinge engine is not fond of starting/stopping/starting. My thumb trigger engine is a bit more forgiving of that. NOT that I use it to be able to punch, just start/stop my engine at will (same as I would use it on a very windy day shooting outdoors)

For THIS forum, we should really be discussing what works in the target only environment.
As cbrunson alluded to, winning in target (hitting tiny Xs) is a much different thing than hitting a lung sized target.... especially if that target has an influence on your shot timing.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Anytime I have ever had this discussion, the time is running out on the clock or deer hunting thing pops up. Those two things are the extreme cases of what could happen, my whole point is that I have been on both sides of this fence as a competitor and the stress and scores from my time spent where I allowed myself to bear down and force the shot to happen is to me nothing like what I am feeling now that I let go of that option. 

This is another area of the mental approach to competition that we can discuss but until you actually let go and do it you are guessing to the outcome or advantage, I took a huge leap of faith and actually did it last year and it allowed me to shoot at my highest level to date and walk around asa courses and put up my highest scores to date and win out easily and move on. Even for me up until I earned the right to have shots that could win a asa tournament I was still relying on "Blind Faith" to continue on doing what I have described in this thread but once I earned the right to take that shot for the win I had all the proof that I needed that it works for me so I am sharing it here. 

And I totally realize that it wasn't against Levi Morgan, I wish I was a pro so I could report to you that it worked against him. My shots were against Open A shooters such as Justin Hanna and tmorelli and many other awesome shooters who all want to be on the podium. Maybe someday we can earn the right to shoot at the highest level and have that shot that defines our hard work, until then I am going to just keep getting better.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm not really following you. I don't think anyone goes out there thinking it will be okay to make a bad shot, or even deviate from their normal routine. It simply may become a product of the situation. Knowing how to handle it would only help.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Good point.........


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm also lost. Time running out on a clock is not an extreme, but a very real possibility when shooting the FITA-type spot games, especially if you had not taken the time to practice in a quicker shot sequence prior to the competition. I never go into any tournament thinking or planning on "bearing down" and forcing off shots. I personally go into all competitions with the expectation that I will perform as well as I am able (or better) based on the amount and quality of practice leading up to the event--no guessing, no mystic euphoric state, just results from hard work and effort. Most of the time it works out, sometimes the fates have another plan, but those times often become excellent learning situations that make me a stronger competitor.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FITA time limits? How much time and maybe what distance? Haven't shot it in a while, but 4 arrows in the 1 minute end of a DAIR and I never got caught on time, 20 yards. Some Indoor clubs stretched the DAIR to 30 yards.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Here it is:

I have chosen to come to anchor and float on the spot I want to hit and run my engine, my arrow either leaves the bow smoothly during my shot window early middle or late or I let down without doing anything extra to get rid of the arrow.

1. This allows me to shoot daily or competitively with a very clean mind.

2. I am willing to pass on a nice deer or loose a competition in order to be clean and clear of poor options.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The funny thing is I was losing before I made this decision all the time, I had never won a national tournament and couldn't beat the best 3d shooter in my area back before I made these decisions so the loosing was already happening. 

But

Just after making these decisions I started beating my buddy locally and then found myself in contention to win national tournaments and putting up scores that I am very proud of on a regular basis in competition. I still haven't won one yet but I have been standing in first place after day one instead of sitting in 20th place hoping for a great second day. Also during that time is when I started shooting for a week at a time without missing a 5-spot x for up to 500 or so shots on about 7 or so weeks where that happened. I had many other weeks of shooting where I only missed 1 to 3 x's for those 500 shots. 

Maybe I just started doing what you guys were already doing and now we are hashing out the subtle differences in how we perceive it in our own way.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> FITA time limits? How much time and maybe what distance? Haven't shot it in a while, but 4 arrows in the 1 minute end of a DAIR and I never got caught on time, 20 yards. Some Indoor clubs stretched the DAIR to 30 yards.


Indoors, for events like Vegas and the LAS Classic it is 2 mins/3 arrows. Outdoors, it is 4 mins/6 arrows at all distances. NFAA with the 4 min/5 arrows on the blue face the time is not relevant--there's plenty of time to get 2 solid resets in, if needed.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

A solid 8 will not win many tournaments but will kill a lot of deer. I have never seen a deer with scoring rings.

I am not a good hunter or target archer. I just try to do the best that I can at the time. Maybe one day I will do better because I know that I keep trying.

Thanks for a great post.


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