# The "true" father of tree bark camouflage



## 21outrage

see MYDADSCAMO on facebook


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## 21outrage

*Who is the "true" father of Tree Bark Camouflage?*

I will tell you who. See new Facebook Page... MYDADSCAMO

Decide for yourself.


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## Buster of Xs

Ummm, why not just tell us right here and post a pic or two?


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## Alaska at heart

I believe it was a fellow by the name of Jim Crumley. This probably dates me, but I remember when Treebark first came out and had a set in fleece.


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## golf assassin

I still have some made by Red Head. probably 20 yrs old, I still hunt in it and I love it.


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## 21outrage

The truth hurts. But may the truth prevail.


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## Yawna-GO

21outrage said:


> I will tell you who. See new Facebook Page... MYDADSCAMO
> 
> Decide for yourself.


The TREE?


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## BRUKSHOT

Alaska at heart said:


> I believe it was a fellow by the name of Jim Crumley. This probably dates me, but I remember when Treebark first came out and had a set in fleece.


I concur. 

Jim Crumley was the man!


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## ArchersParadox

..Jim Crumley....back in the 70's.....we couldn't afford Treebark camo....had to settle for Army Surplus Fatigues!!:shade:


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## 21outrage

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10150125659117122&set=a.486882262121.268859.243673267121&type=1&theater


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## meatmissle

Jim Crumley and he still makes camo clothing today.


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## C-fused

21outrage said:


> I will tell you who. See new Facebook Page... MYDADSCAMO
> 
> Decide for yourself.



It's spelled Trebark.

Oh, thanks for joining the forum.

It sucked on AT before you started posting these little gems.


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## rick prather

i also had a set of fleece,man, did they catch the burrs!!!


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## buckslayerky

elusion camo is great tree bark camo


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## lc12

I still have my Trebark hat from the 70's.
Kind of "outgrew" my pants and jacket though!!!
I believe this to still be one of the best camo patterns out there to this day!


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## 3children

My pants and shirt still fit but the hat, reversible, has shrunk. I remember when I purchased it the same year it came out. I thought it was great. He is still making and improved on what a lot have thought it to be great.



lc12 said:


> I still have my Trebark hat from the 70's.
> Kind of "outgrew" my pants and jacket though!!!
> I believe this to still be one of the best camo patterns out there to this day!


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## peace

21outrage said:


> http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.ph...6882262121.268859.243673267121&type=1&theater


Point well made. Quite interesting. Truth is many times stranger than fiction, and life can be full of irony. Betamax was better but VHS won the day, go figure. I am by no means attempting to reduce your fathers accomplishments and contribution to the commercial world of hunting, I am just acknowledging that things just don't always go the way we wish, or at least follow what should be normative.


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## bucktrout

i still have 7 pairs of Treebark pants that i still use


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## eaglecaps

Do we really have to go to "facecrook"? Can't you just post here, some of us don't like or use that site.


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## 21outrage

new to site... don't know how to post attachments.


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## 21outrage

to Peace... finally a reasonable comment. Kudos! He was the man, and there is way more to the story than you'll ever know.


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## Viper69

Who first made trebark camo? I did! So there.


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## JPR79

That stuff is still good to this day! Nice how it makes you look like a pine tree that's been cut short.

I'm still waiting on my refractive Predator camo suit. You know, the one made out of flexible LCD screens and has small cameras on it and projects everything around you?


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## lknchoppers

Jim Crumley did the TreeBark then Bill Jordan came up with Realtree. I had army camo back then. I still have a Treebark fleece backpack still. I don't do facebook.


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## skip5515

Still have Fleese trebark coveralls that are like new, and won't do face book. Thanks


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## 21outrage

*The photo above is from 1974 ya'll - 6 years before trebark*

hmmmmm


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## 21outrage

what the hell was Mayor Marion Barry involved with this private company for? hmmm I told you all it was
way bigger than you can imagine. you still may want to make it to the facebook page on your wife or girlfriends acct.


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## 21outrage

http://www.outfittertuff.com/history.htm read objectively now, and put your hunter's cap on.


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## 21outrage

The Real Deal... Robert O. Smith


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## 21outrage

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/AddingtonCrumley.shtml

http://www.outfittertuff.com/history.htm

read objectively now.


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## 21outrage

the real deal... Robert O. Smith


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Employer... US Government owned Military Plant...Muskegon, MI. "Technical Illustrator", and "one of the best".


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## 21outrage

way before 1974


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## 21outrage

another recent - very interesting development...

http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/billcochran/wb/258102

http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/wb/257934

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!


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## 21outrage

thier current story continues to read... "he placed his first 1/8 page ad in the JULY edition of Bowhunter Magazine". Not! actually a June-July issue...released near end of May 1980, with lead times running back into April.

My dads lawfirm... the firm's founder Peter P. Price, started his firm in 1952 after working as an engineer at Boeing Enterprises.
Boeing Enterprises...Bowing Enterprises...Coincidence?... I believe NOT.


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## Capt'n D

Yep Jim Crumley. I believe he drew out the first pattern with a magic marker on a T-shirt.


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## 21outrage

Here are some of the intial primary players - representing the WHITE HOUSE...during the Nixon adminstration.


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## 21outrage

here is where it started...after the 60/40 deal offered by my dad's attorney's on his idea, and a deal that he did not like. reference document above, and note the address on this document of 900 17th st. Washington, DC.


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## 21outrage

then this... years later.


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## 21outrage

and even this... and plenty more like it. notice the date this one was classified in the bottom right hand corner. hmmmmmmm


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## Garceau

Cool I guess - 

Deer see it as one big blob anyways. Too much stuff going on - I like the original Predator camo the best


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## 21outrage

“Once in every generation, there appears a wise man, one with a vision far over that of his contemporaries. Unfortunately, such men are often not recognized or appreciated until long after they have expressed their thoughts.”

Roger D. Middlekauff (lobbyist deceased) - May 1975 – Food Drug Cosmetic Law Journal


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## 21outrage

ad from 1986 Bowhunter Magazine... one of the few stories NOT being told today.


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## 21outrage

me again...1974 with form fitted mask, gloves, and bow cover. (Bear - recurve)


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another


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## Hunterdale

That stuff you're sporting looks like Timber Ghost. I thought it was a pretty decent pattern, you don't see it amymore.


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## 21outrage

If you are reading this thread, and although it includes some slightly differnent info... I will now concentrate most of my continuning posts on the following thread. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=374646

additional info on MYDADSCAMO page on facebook. Become a fan if you dare.


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## 21outrage

SO NOW... the moderators of this site... have taken down the thread where I was concentrating all of my efforts within.

This thread was titled "Jim Crumley's Trebark". and here is my answer to the last post that appeared there before they removed it.
beaman123 - as far as I am concerned... this whole story starts with a very dedicated archer in the day. this archer's concept was responsible for changing the hunting/archery industry forever. Yes you are right that there are many items within, that lend themselves to a potential legal answer, and yes, many of these issues are related directly to the patents involved. I disagree that this subject "only matters to a group of lawyers", and for what it's worth...the title of this thread was not started by me... and it says something about tracing the history of Trebark. Camouflage and Archery go hand in hand, and I believe that there are many out there that have been following the progress on this thread, have been able to surmise the objectives. If someone is simply coming in late... not reviewing everything step, by step, then yes... one could easily get confused.

One again... it's a good darn thing I took the time yesterday... to copy, paste, and save... a complete record of the entire thread.


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## 21outrage

Now YOU... AS WELL... CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.


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## Hunterdale

Maybe you touched a nerve here and they were getting pressure from others in the industry/sponsors. It's all a $$$$$$$ game. Good luck to you!!


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## 21outrage

You think... Maybe???


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Here is a six part scan... of a transcript that I made of a video interview that was removed from the Outfitter Tuff website a while back. Thought you might find it interesting.


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part 2


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part 3


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part 4


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part 5


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part 6


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## 21outrage

and in case you missed it on the thread they took down... here's a couple of interviews from priciples of Bowhunter Magazine of the days. this one from the famous MR James.






in two parts.


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part 2


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## 21outrage

and this... 4 parts, from Fred Wallace... in charge of selling the ads during the days.


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part 2


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part 3


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part 4.


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a common thread in many of these.


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## 21outrage

the second trademark filing of the same mark, effectively changing the first use in commerce from Jan 1980, before the formation of Bowing Enterprises, to July of 1980. The sticker...covers the address of 900 17th St., the address of Corporate Registered Agent, Inc.


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phone number in above post associated with this today.


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Part of Bowing Enterprises corporate filing docs.


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## 21outrage

Fobes Patent Art. Fobes patent... filed before the Bowing/Crumley Patent, and approved before the same, yet the Bowing/Crumley patent goes on to take the claim to fame. 

registered address on Fobes Patent - the Montgomery County Courthouse - Ohio, w/ Fobes...previous assist., and later Prosecuting Attorney there.


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## 21outrage

a great link http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/meetings/details.asp?f=109&segment=9#audioPlayer


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## 21outrage

the condo he supposively leveraged to pursue his dream

CBI Fairmac - a huge oil,gas, etc... conglomerate


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from some recently found records of my dads.


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from another disappearing link that was on my facebook page... MYDADSCAMO

pretty sure... one of the 3 incorporators of Bowing Enterprises, Inc.

no wonder why the link was broken!


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## 21outrage

part of the Bowing Enterprises/Crumley Patent(s)


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## 21outrage

part of same mentioned above


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## 21outrage

The Realtree story reads... Bill entered the hunting industry in 1983. I say 1982, or before.


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## 21outrage

anyone remember the poision arrow controversy within the industry in the early 1980's?


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## 21outrage

There is a DEEP history behind this firm, and this firm, was approx. 700 miles away from
Columbus GA at the time of the Patent shown above. Ask yourself why? Was there not a qualified patent attorney in Columbus at the time. I hardly doubt it. The Patent above... filed appox. 1 month after the formation papers of Spartan Archery Products.

The firm of Watson Cole & Grindle, included an old US Patent Office Commissioner, the so called "Dean Emeritus" of Georgetown Law School, and many, many, military related lawyers. The firm was also responsible for many goverment patents during the days.


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## 21outrage

and he did not act alone.


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## 21outrage

Don't know for sure, but have a hunch that this was it. I do know that when I previously posted some of this info on a Realtree Facebook Page, that it was removed in pretty short order.

And I have yet to have any luck finding another Spartan Products, Inc. - and the State of Georgia has Certified the fact that a Spartan Products, Inc. was never in their state.


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## 21outrage

Some time ago, and after discovering the long lost pictures that have sent me on this journey... I started with an email to the Realtree website. It was the first thing that came to my mind. I asked... In which year was the very first camouflage that resembled the bark of a tree, introduced into the market in any fashion. Their head of Marketing at that time... a one Dodwell Clifton, answered me back... Jim Crumley's Trebark was first in 1982, and Realtree came second in 1986. 

Was this a little white lie? I'm thinkin so.


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## 21outrage

and let's not forget... the so called #3 to enter the industry... with the "it all started with a fistfull of dirt" story. There is a rich history here as well, and the timing of the March 10. 1986 filing... (the same year that Bill Jordan shows off his new camouflage at the 86 shot show)... well... certainly deserves some more in depth research. 

He also... did not act alone at 26 years of age.


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## 21outrage

like what about any other family ties to these next two.


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from recently aquired 8mm film - a cropped - still. The deer hanging was killed in 1974.


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## eaglecaps

I hate to tell you this , but you do realize that the business world and the world in general is full of crooks and schiesters. I'm sorry for what happened to your father, Mr CRUMMY is obviously one of them. Time for you to put this all behind you and move on.


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## 21outrage

eaglecaps... certain points well made, and it seems as if documents and proof do make the difference in public opinion. Believe me... I am very aware of what the world is full of, and let me assure you that I was aware of this way longer than I have been involved with this project. I do however have to disagree with you that it's time to put this all behind me, and move on. Sorry, but that's NOT happening! I'm sure that is what some would like me to do, but with much support from others... and comments like yours above, it seems that certain initial objectives within... have already been made.


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## 21outrage

photo from 1974 (or earlier) this is NOT Jim Crumley's Trebark. NOT by a LONG SHOT.


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## 21outrage

Here are the required annual corporation filings for what I will now call the holding company, that eventually was responsible for forming Bowing Enterprises. For a then bunch of qualified lawyers... one would think that they would at least have an official stamp of some sort for their notary portions. After the companies initial filing in Dec. of 1974, they failed to file for 1975, filed 1976 about 6 months late, missed again in 1977, then later... failed to file again in 1980 and 1981.

will have to get the rest of annual docs on Bowing Enterprises, Inc., DC/VA. later. tell tale signs within those as well.


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## 21outrage

cont. in next post.


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... can you say... open heart surgeries?


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## Hornsgalore

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1145376
> from recently aquired 8mm film - a cropped - still. The deer hanging was killed in 1974.


 that pattern looks more like Timber Ghost than it does Trebark.http://www.bowhunting.net/evaluation/00-TimberGhost.html


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## 21outrage

again... filed *before* the Bowing/Crumley patent(s), and approved... *before* the Bowing/Crumley patent(s).


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from same application posted above


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R.O.Smith renderings from Patent Application


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## 21outrage

here is a link to the firm that handled my father's business -starting in1965

http://www.priceheneveld.com/firm_profile.asp

read the part... expanding our vision. it's the key part.


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## 21outrage

Now... the above indicates that Peter P. Price (from Boeing) before starting his lawfirm in 1952, was joined (3) years later by Lloyd Heneveld. All of the pieces just keep coming together, as today, with the help of some past obits, well... the attached helps with many of the connections of this story. Lloyd's brother... Capt. George A. Heneveld... Pilot, and part of the "Billy Mitchell Group", 468 H-Bomb Group...1944.






I knew that there were some additional questions behind him, but now... fully explained.


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## 21outrage

another new scan. I've been meaning to google earth this address for quite some time.
can you now say... "three peas in a pod"?


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## 21outrage

Back to the No.3 again... and the "it all started with a fist full of dirt story... see...

http://www.mossyoak.com/content/tmpltBios.aspx?articleid=818


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## curvaceous

I had a Hoyt Gamegetter compound in the early/mid 90's that was treebark camo , shame dont see it used anymore on bows , also bout my fave camo pattern was vietnam tiger stripe , wish the made it in a dip kit form or bows were made with some of the retro patterns .
being that the bow has a relatively small profile/ size , in relation to the form of the body i dont think 3d type camo is as important on the bow


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## 21outrage

Now referring to the link posted above, where it states before joining his son with Haas Outdoors in 1986... he spent 37 years at Bryan Foods in Mississipi. The Bryan website indicates that Bryan has been around since 1936, and if this is the case, then Fox Hass started his employment there in about 1949, and the first record I can find, relates to a Bryant Brothers Packing Co. formed in 1946. It has also been noted elsewhere, that the now President of Mossy Oak, Bill Sugg, also spent 9 years at Bryan Foods, before joining Haas Outdoors, and another story indicates that "after sharpening his marketing skills" at Bryan Foods, that's where Toxey supposively got his start, and after attending the Univeristy of Mississipi.


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## 21outrage

Bryan Foods...Now Sara Lee... well, here's some excerpts from a Wikipedia page on Sara Lee. An example for those who do not know how Big Business actually works.


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and here are a couple of more.


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## 21outrage

By the way... Mr. Bill Jordan also attended the University of Mississipi. Hmmmm It has been written that he chose that location for college, based on his hunting habits. I'm pretty sure that story was an afterthought by someone.


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## 21outrage

again...


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## 21outrage

in a related story... http://msbusiness.com/2005/01/mossy-oak-one-of-state8217s-best-business-success-stories/

I interviewed this author on 9/5/2011, and asked him specifically about *"the rumor that had been circulating for quite a while"...*well, his obvious response was, "I don't recall how that came about", and mentioned that this was a long time ago. Well the article itself in 2005, wasn't that long ago... and as both a journalist, plus being employed at Mississipi State University... I simply don't believe him, and I believe that there is really more to this portion of his story.


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## eaglecaps

Can you put these pieces all together in one story formatted in a multiple paragraph form so as it would be easier to read and believe please? You just may get someone to listen that way.


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## 21outrage

eaglecaps... I attempted to do that when I switched gears earlier with this thread, and concentrated my efforts in the thread titled "jim crumley's trebark" started by Jumpman. This entire thread was removed by the mods on this site. After that... and then expecting this one to be also removed, I simply started to randomly post many items that remain relevant within the big picture. You can still go to the facebook page titled MYDADSCAMO, and page back to the beginning. Right about the time that the other thread was removed, I started from scratch there... to explain from the beginning. If anyone has any direct questions, I will attempt to answer them for you, but I do not have the time here now, to start all over. I have however... put fourth enough specifics within, to help tell this evolving story. Good Day... and may the industry know the irreversible conditions involved with the exposure of such deceipt.


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## 21outrage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Aircraft_Engine_Company poke around in this link for some intersting stuff.


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## 21outrage

and within the above... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Motors_Company


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## 21outrage

already posted... but significant on this day. I remember Sept. 11, 2001 and Sept. 11, 1975


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## 21outrage

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/meetings/details.asp?f=109&segment=9 gotta love this one!


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## 21outrage

from missing article which was once online...

titled: "All about the legendary Ted Williams and his first turkey hunt" by author Joe Byers

in part... "With half a life-time of trial, tribulation, and good times behind them, Smith took Dizzy Dean’s request seriously and in early 1980 set about to organize a hunt. At that time Smith was on the Alabama Game and Fish Commission and set up a hunt with Billy Bonds who managed a large timber tract for Hammermill near Montgomery, Ala." 

now above... talking about Karl T. Smith, father of Sherry Smith, or Sherry Smith Crumley. Her daddy was also on the the Chairman of the Fish and Game Department in TN. in the 60's.

This article - believe it or not, was one that sent me back-tracking to many others... and in essence, was the one that placed all of the pieces together for me, as I admittedly struggled for quite some time during my research of the Crumley Family history, to find out just how it all ended up in Crumley's hands. No wonder why the article is gone.

Sherry Smith, or Sherry Crumley... as it's been reported... has her first Turkey Hunt in 1986, then goes on to much involvement in the wildlife industry. ie. wild turkey federation, etc., then landing a similar position to her father on the Virginia Dept. of Game and Inland fisheries, where in the post above, she was dismissed, 3 years before her term was up, and that was within her second term there - where she had become the first woman ever, to sit as the chairman of that department. I can't say with any certainty that her removal had anything to do with my research project, but I can tell you today, that there remain specifics within the code of ethics on the DGIF that could most likely pertain. Remember... my process has been long, and self exposing to many entities along the path...and especially the State of Virginia! Could it possibly be a matter of limiting their future exposure to such a critical issue? You Decide.


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## 21outrage

From email - State of TN. - from 9/21/10

"Thanks to our Director's administrative assistant, ________, who has been here since the 1960's, I was able to learn that Karl T. Smith 
served on the game and fish commission from 1965 until 1971. He was appointed by Governor Frank Clement. Jane also noted that, as chairman, Commissioner Smith presided over the first meeting held in our current building on August 21, 1969. The game and fish commission was restructured and renamed the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency in 1974".

Now my effort to confirm the 1980's thing (mentioned in previous post) with the State of Alabama, have resulted in what amouts to a great deal of run-around, with NO real direct answers. At one point within my quest for confirmation, I was asked... "does this have anything to do with going to court?" Maybe that's the real reason they would not find me the answer I was looking for. another... YOU DECIDE.


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## MOC

Ummmmmm,,,,no offense, but what exactly are you trying to accomplish here.


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## 21outrage

Moc... I like the part under the letters MOC, "Fair Chase". That pretty much can be used to sum up the answer to your question.

quote: Nov. 10, 2009 - Lee Toliver - VA Pilot - email communications... he writes in part, and in reply to me...
……."most people believe anything they see….then there are people like you who search for the truth….which makes you a rare breed"

I tend to agree.


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## MOC

Guess I was looking for the cliff notes of what you're writing about.


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## VicxenNewbie

MOC said:


> Guess I was looking for the cliff notes of what you're writing about.


X2! This makes no sense to me....


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## Capt'n D

And he doesn't really answer any questions either. Just keeps posting a bunch of stuff I don't think many people care about at this point.
He should just send it all to Jim Crumley & let him read it...LOL

Darrall


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## Capt'n D

Hey can you send me those old bowhunter magazines? I think my dad has some articles in them I would like to have!

Darrall Dougherty


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## 21outrage

Vicxen Newbie... "makes no sence"... with all due respect, can you not place all of the pieces already presented in some form of order that would allow you to draw some conclusions regarding the overall content? Do you think that this is simply a scam or a twisted story of sorts, or simply a fabrication from my end?, if you do... you are dead wrong. Capt'n D... if you have viewed all of the content in this thread, you will have seen that at one point, I concentrated my efforts in a seperate thread that someone else started, in where within... it did start to form a solid foundation of questions and answers, and a timeline, but unfortantely... that thread must have gotton to hot in the end... and they dumped it. So now, as far as me "just posting a bunch of stuff" that you don't think people care about, well again... I must disagree with you on that. Yes... there may be some that don't care, and really don't want to accept the fact that they too... were decieved, and finally now... if you don't think that "Crumley" and his lawyers, along with all others affiliated with this mess, arn't already watching... then again... you are dead wrong. Good Day to you guys!


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## 21outrage

PS - go ahead and ask your direct questions! I'll do my best to answer, if I find the question(s) itself worthy of a response.


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## 21outrage

Now did I mention that my research has yielded some intersted things? Like my mail being pre-opened...


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and tons of hang up phone calls - (many from the east coast) and where many can't even be returned?


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## 21outrage

And now today... I will show you another example of just how thorough I am with my processes. On August 31, 2010, at 9:44 pm, and while at work, I missed an incoming call to my cell phone from an out of state number. I did not see this until I got home. I initially called the California number back, but got an answering machine message from a dude named Milt. At that time I left no message. I then went straight to work.


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## 21outrage

As you will see, it pays to have a paid subscription to Peoplefinders. Only $4.75 to obtain.


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## 21outrage

Then finding this with the Military APO addresses...


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and this... along a large golf course.


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then this...


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then this...


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and then this... after my wife suggested that I try to find this person on facebook. at that point, I intially thought NO Way!... but I was wrong. Now with 26 friends on her page, it was pointed out to me that she might be new to facebook. ?????

NOTE HERE NOW.... the "Employers"... and education, and the date.


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## 21outrage

Now the next morning as I went to get my coffee, I called the CA. number at 8:42 am Michigan time... (much earlier there) and woke up "Milt". I asked him about the incoming call to my cell phone the night before. He stated that he didn't know what I was talking about, and that he made no such call to Michigan. When I asked about the name Jutta Millas... he said "that's my landlord", and when I asked whether or not this person was a man or a woman, he then said I don't understand why you are calling me, and asking me these questions, and then he simply hung up on me. Now of course... I have as much information as possible on Milt here as well. A few days later, I called the number again, and a child answered. I said nothing... blank air... then it must have been Milt again that got on the phone, and when I again said nothing... he hung up. Now it wasn't but a short time after, that I recieved another incoming call to my cell,and this one... from a "unknown" caller, and a number that was in no way tracable back to its source. (now - other than the documentaion of the incoming call itself)


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## 21outrage

Now on Sept. 6, 2010... I check the coorelating facebook page again. Now with 30 friends listed... the poster lists specific jobs with the Federal Government. Now obviously still building her page.


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## 21outrage

But 4 days later... and after my secondary call to the California number.... you see this, with the removal of all traces of US government employment.






By the way now... did you see her location as France?


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## 21outrage

Now on Sept. 14, 2010, I contacted Millas via facebook, and asked her why I recieved an incoming call from a number registered to her, and to Michigan, from Ca.? She answered... and I quote... "I have no idea why you recieved a call from the California number registered to me. The phone number is for our condo in California that is currently rented. Out tentant claims he does not use the phone often because he also kept or transferred his old number. This was probably a wrong number dialed. I sincerely hope it was not a "nuisance call". Do you want me to ask our California tenant?

I answered... "already did...thanks. pretty sure I already know the answer to my question anyway. by the way...it looks like a pretty nice place".


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## 21outrage

cont... that same day she answered me back with... "Good, so it's resolved".

but a couple of weeks later on Oct. 1, 2010... I responded one last time with the following.

Resolved?...I don't think so. As I indicated in my earlier reply, "I already know the answer to my own question anyway"... just so you know, I have hard printed copies, of all three of your most recent employment status postings, where at first you indicate your employment with the Federal Government, then a complete resume style listing, and then changing it to a generic version...effectively removing all traces of Government activity. Oh the grandeur of the internet! In these days, and most likely those...there is a reason for everything. I will ask you now to please, do not underestimate me, as I am as thourough as one can possibly be. I knew about you and your affiliation with the AFOSI, along with obviously much more, prior to contacting you originally. All of my information is backed up, and scattered in multiple secure locations, and there are many individuals that have my back on this one. They WILL act on my behalf if needed. You have a great day...wherever you are, and I will now anticipate that this shall be our last coorespondence.


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## 21outrage

then much later... with 44 friends on her page... it looked like this.


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## 21outrage

and as of today... it looks like this.


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## 21outrage

And additionally... there was some additional valuable insight into the "friends", and again... Friends of friends found on these facebook pages. Remember... I am thorough as thorough can be. Every single step of the way my friends... no pun intended.

It has also come as a somewhat of a revelation, that certain individuals, *with no ties to me*, or others, possibly affilated with me, now keep popping up as "people I may know" on my Linkedin page. Imagine that! Lawyers...Industry professionals, and others... and guess what??? I have drawn many ties back to thier sources within. A great new example of this would be a name that recently appeared there... with no information at all, other than a name, and the location of "France". You guessed it again... when I typed this name into Google with the letters AFOSI behind it, well... needless to say, it was a another big match. In the end, I will consider these all big mistakes from thier end.

You might also guess now, that when I send them a connection request... well, other than a couple ones that I can't really explain, the others... simply will not hit accept. hahahahahahahahaha Gotta go now... go ahead and ask your questions! Chances are good, I will have the answer!


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## 21outrage

another still photo - taken from 8mm film - 1974 a little blurry compared to some of the rest... but representing.... "The man, the myth, the legend", and the "true" father of Tree Bark Camouflage... Robert O. Smith

Pabst Blue Ribbon and all!


----------



## 21outrage

Now before I leave today, and as I watch the view on this thread grow... I've re-scanned the second facebook employment info at a much better resolution for your review. Hopefully the 600 dpi makes a difference, and won't make you strain, as it did me.






Everyone have a Great Saturday!


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## PSEX-Force

What does the CA call and the goverment and that ladies facebook have to do with the camo. 

Its hard to follow this because its broken up into seperate posts. 

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk


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## 21outrage

Oops... thought I'd throw this one in before I go, and will address this one, and the other textile companies - ALL FORMED DURING THE SAME DAYS... later, especially the part about "Ralph Kier" coming from Cuba!


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## 21outrage

PSEX - I realize that it may be a bit hard to follow. I can't really do anything about that at this point, but I will try. You should go back and look at the corporate docs of Corp. Reg. Agent, Inc., Bowing Ent., including the Mayor of DC, etc... and all of the history on the lawyers involved, and that should answer your question. Thanks for asking.


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## 21outrage

Good Day! After reviewing this morning... my last few posts, today I was going to post a link which referred to a previous post above, and it was the wikipedia page for Governor Frank Clement, the Governor who appointed Karl T. Smith to the fish and Game Comission TN, and as per the email noted additionally above. Now I went to this page today for a quick review, and noticed that some of the information that was there before, and in which I found to remain relevant in the big picture... is now missing. On the bottom of the page, it shows the following:

"This page was last modified on 16 July 2011 at 17:34".

This does not surprise me a bit, and will now force me to pull the hard copies printed way back when, and compare to what is there today. Hopefully I'll get back to you all on this one, with just exactly what was changed. Pretty sure, from memory... what was changed. Can't wait to check this one, and report back.


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## 21outrage

Now I see a series of these wikipedia pages, previously printed off by me, that have a similar modification date. Man I hate it when they create more work for me, than absolutley necessary, but I guess it's all part of the game at this point. It's a good thing that I was way ahead of them with most of my research. As in the case of the "millas" facebook accounts... it at least creates a method of checks and balances of current history. Also similar to the "pink" classified documents already posted earlier... when my research first took me there, ALL of the pink docs that were currently present within the system online, about 99% of all of them, were classified in 1984. A date that related specificifcally to some occurances then within the timeline. Then as my research in that area continued... all of a sudden I come across brighter pink docs in the system... with dates in 2009, in the bottom rt. hand corner. Yes... the same time of my research there. Do you now see a similar trend? It's my firm opinion that someone did some key word searches within those, and that certain elements were removed at those times. Ask yourself again... why does a particular name within the "National Security Counsil" ranks, still have to be blacked out from the files, after more than three decades? 

And to now go back to the last question that was asked of me, as to why the phone call from CA., and the Government has anything to do with this camouflage project, well let me first state this. If you go back and think about the times...mid 1970's,
and *the status quo of camouflage then*, not having ANY real changes or developments since the early 1940's, and you think about the progression since the 80's, and now today... just how all of that was directly related and has evolved into the massive industry that it is today, well... there are other elements within, inlcuding certain patents, and thier perspective prioritities that both pertain, and matter specifically within. An example of this research can be found here, at.... http://www.stormingmedia.us/search.html?q=camouflage

I have puchased a couple of these select reports, and the times, the dates, and the referencesces within, are critical in understanding the bigger picture here. I'll hope to address some of this in the future. 

Remember... you can go to MYDADSCAMO on facebook for further explanation. Page back to the beginning pages, and then move forward. At some point within, and after Archerytalk.com banned me for a while, and also removed the entire content of the link started by "jumpman" titiled "Jim Crumley's Trebark", I start to tell the story from scratch. Now although I have not had much time to even continue there where I left off, as I've been busy getting bumped off as a user - on facebook sites like Cabella's, and Gander Mountian, where it has become both documented, and obvious... of particulars that do not want to face the facts being presented here. I now copy and paste this thread daily... as most likely will someday also disappear.


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## 21outrage

Here is a link to one of the primary guys from Corporate Registered Agent, Inc./Bowing Enterprises/Trebark. I like the part where it states... "conducts internal investigations related to potential fraud and abuse issues".

Guess what???? I do too!

http://www.crowell.com/Bios/John-Brennan


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## 21outrage

and here's another - relating to the same.

http://www.jordancoyne.com/index.php/website/counsel_info/jordan/


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## 21outrage

and I don't know right off, if I've already posted this one or not, but here's a link to the firm RESPONSIBLE for failing my father, and his patent application. read the "expanding our vision" part. It's Key. 

http://www.priceheneveld.com/firm_profile.asp


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## 21outrage

I made a mistake... and I always stand up to my mistakes. Plus... to note these along the way, if needed... limits the capabilities of others to question my capacity in such matters. I was wrong about the noted wikipedia modification(s) specifically mentioned prior. After double checking my previously printed copies, I found that the part that I originally believed was possibly removed or altered... was in fact, part of a seperate article. This part in particluar, was a part about the person who appointed Karl T. Smith to the Fish & Game Comm. TN, and his previous employment with the FBI before he entered the policital arena. Although drawing conslusions along the way remains a necessity, I admit that sometimes, if you do this without the facts in front of you, it will come back to bite you in the ass.

Today, this does not underscore the still existing circumstances wherby many different items, such as a story, a video interview, links, etc., that have come up MIA within my processes. These remain a matter of fact!

If you are out there today, and you find yourself intirigued with my story, and also now believing what I have been presenting here... I will ask you to share this information with anyone and everyone you know. I have recieved quite a few personal messages through the notifications portion of this site, and to many... I would like to say thanks for thier support. I can also be contacted via the facebook page - if anyone is interested in doing so.


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## 21outrage

Here is another example of something mentioned above. This article... once appearing on the Outdoor Life web page... and included one of the versions of a Crumley story that involved a Marine Colonel being somewhat responsible for giving Crumley his motivation to persue his idea... and after pressing the organization on many different attempts to gain the author's name, and additionally getting the run-around within, I recieved NO direct answer... and on a seperate check back... this is what I had found. The Outdoor Life Magazine Facebook page is also anther one, i which has recently removed many of my particular posts.


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## 21outrage

Gotta love my paid perscription to peoplefinders, and now my new subscription to ancestory.com. Together will google earth... they all work very well. Maybe I'll get a sponsorship from one of these outfits...or become a poster child for Peoplefinders.  Public records are critical... you just need to know where to look for your information - beyond the internet!


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## 21outrage

Here's another link to another story about camouflage. The author here...Laura Lee Dovey. Another one who I maintain a large amount of info on, and within an email interview with her a while back. She as well holds specifics about this research... like all of the corporate records, etc... from Corp. Reg. Agent, Inc., and Bowing Enterprises. Initally she told me that she was interested in my story, and may interview me, but it never transpired. I did have additional communications beyond my intial ones with her... and the last one that she sent off to me, carbon copied a lawyer. hmmmm

http://www.suite101.com/content/evolution-of-camouflage-a102309

She is also affiliated with the Professional Outdoor Media Organization, who's facebook page also just recently dumped a couple of my posts there. More on this later.


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## 21outrage

and here's a link to the author of the story titled "Where did Trebark Come From" which appears on the OutfitterTuff website, and within a previous book published in the late 1990's between him and Crumley. Also... founding member of POMA. Poke around inside this site, and look for his past experience, etc.

An initial phone interview with him... ended abruptly... imagine that... and then later... my direct communications with Jim Crumley himself. These emails to be discussed in the future! Stay Tuned... you won't want to miss these!


http://www.nighthawkpublications.com/


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## 21outrage

and regarding the link above - and the history listed there within... pay particular attention to the "ALABAMA" Fish & Game information... and the exact timing of such... and how this all might relate to the previously mentioned "Joe Byers"/Karl T. Smith story. If you don't think that there is a coorelation here, or conlusions that might be drawn within, you are most likley wrong.

This project obviously has allot of this. It ALL has to do with the connections of the days. Even though it remains complicated at best, it has remained a simple matter of connecting the dots.


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## 21outrage

Now since the other thread was removed... I'll add this here again today. If you followed the other thread, then you most likely have seen this. In the spring of 2010, I interviewed by email... a one "Johnny Buck", previously Navel Intellegence off the Beltway, DC, and the person mentioned as the first purchaser of a Trebark suit, and in the John E. Phillips story. Needless to say, the evolution of his version of events, discredited the written story, and in the end of these communications, one of his last comments to me, and after I let him know what I was reseraching, was... "stay safe". I took this, and still do, as a direct threat.

After that... I attempted to turn over all of my documentation to the Michigan State Police, as I wanted to go on some form of public record, and make known... the nature of my project. I was pretty much turned away at that time, and it was suggested that I start with the USPTO, and file a complaint there. I did just that, and the complaint was a number of pages long, and also included a timeline, etc., a request for a reply, and I offered up, upon request... to turn over additional supporting documention.

When I did this, I didn't want the matter to simply go to the USPTO only, and have them reply with some BS answer...like they did, so I sent a copy of the same complaint to the Michigan State Police, the head of the FBI, Chicago Division, the Michigan Governors office, my then Congressman's office, and one Michigan then Senator's office. I wanted to scatter the in-field with the info. I asked for a reply from all, and only recieved one from the USPTO. I followed up with a request to meet in person with my local Congressman, of whom which... I had the opportunity to have recently met in person. At this point, he knew me... and because of the matter in which we met, he also knew more about me. This was regarding seperate matter, but did involve the State of Michigan. Cont. in next post.


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## 21outrage

Now upon my first phone conversation with the "District Director" under the Congressman, and after they had reviewed the complaint, I was looking to them for help. One of the first comments that was made to me was... "we have never seen anything like this before", and this comment, had to do with... just how they would help me to procede. The Michigan Attorney General's office was mentioned within this conversation as a possible direction. Now during this same conversation, the District Director asked to receive the additional supporting evidence that I offered up in my complaint. I told him that it was continually being updated, and that I would get him a copy of the cd, and call him back in about a week. I then called hime back after about 10 days, and told him that I was not quite ready to submit this info, and that I would call him back when I was ready. Cont. in next post.


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## 21outrage

On Tuesday, September 10, 2010, I called the district director back. I told him that I was ready to turn over some cd's. He said... do you want to meet today?, I said no, that won't work. He said how about tomorrow?, I said that will work just fine. He asked me if I wanted to come to their offices, and I told him NO, and that was not going to work for me. I suggested he meet at my facility, and we planned to meet on Wednesday at 2:00 pm. He already knew where my facility was, and at that time... he actually just lived a short distance away. I had also met this person on the same occasion earlier, when I had met the Congressman face-to-face, so in essence... he already knew me. On Wednesday, I borrowed like five, 6' plastic tables from a friends business, and set up my arsenal of doucments for the meeting. That day... I had a couple of hours after getting set up, to wait for his arrival, so in the mean time, I went straight to work on my charts, graphs, and the filing of information. By the time he got there... it was a full blown work in progress, and not the clean, arranged way in which I intially set it all up. Either way... I'm pretty sure that he was blown away the minute that he walked into the room. Cont. in next post.


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## 21outrage

Here is a photo from that day, repesenting only a portion of what he then witnessed. Pay attention to the Pink stack of documents at the back of this photo. They are the classified documents from the daily diaries of our Grand Rapids MI, Gerald R. Ford.


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## 21outrage

Now during this meeting which lasted about an hour, and in which I ended up doing most of the talking... I explained to the district director, that "no one wants to be in my shoes", but we are here, and now, and that I was looking for help and direction within. At one point he says... "that's why I'm here, I deal with constituants everyday". As I explained my story to him in great detail, at one point within... I talked about the stack of classified documents. I told him that I wasn't 100% sure that everyone of those pertained, but that most likley, most of them do, and this all due to the coorelating dates. At that very moment he says to me... and I quote... *"you obviously have a problem with the federal goverment".* 

Now... given the FACT that they had been sitting on a copy of the complaint originally filed at the USPTO, and this, for a period of a great deal of months in between, this comment by him, was a direct admission that he, and they, knew I was heading in the right direction, and that I was correct in my current findings. To be cont.


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## 21outrage

Now sorry Mr. DeWitte, but since your offices dropped the ball on me, and failed me with any additional direction, you have left me with no other means but to expose these facts. This is a copy, in part, of the document that he signed that day in front of a witness.


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## 21outrage

Let if be known today, that I was willing at that point to hear them out, hense they came back to me with a solution to resolve the matter, and before it went any further. I WAS told that they would get back with me, but after that... seems I had trouble sending them additional follow up emails, and then sent my final one to him, via his facebook page. Never got a reply. So much for the I help constituants with problems every day. 
Now had they come to me with a potential solution to nip this all in the bud, we might not be here today, and one of my favorite sayings lately is... "it is what it is", and I will now add to that... that it's not my fault. Even the perpetrators of these events knew that this was coming... and they also, had their chance. It's not like anyone did not see it coming, as there were plenty of signs. I simply must now...let the chips fall where they may.


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## 21outrage

And....right about now, is probably going to be the time where this thread will now disappear. We will see, won't we. 

I have yet to really put my 30 years of Marketing experience to work here on this project, and the means in which I am able to do so, seem virtually endless from my end. I'm even thinking about a camp out on the steps of the Capitol. Maybe I'll place a series of National ads. Hmmmm, pretty sure I can find the backers if needed.  I have enough people behind me that believe in my story already, and rest assured... I'm not ready to back off. When everyone else in the industry and beyond, that know what really happened, and some, additionally sitting on specifics... are all sitting back on their hands doing nothing... well then ... I'll completely disagree with the concept that one man cannot make a difference.


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## 21outrage

Copy paste, save... Copy , paste, save... download, back-up, distribute, and file! A good day to you all.


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## 21outrage

1,233 views on this thread since 9/1/11. I'll roll with that.


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## stubborn

Keep digging.... sounds like this is a pretty deep hole.....


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## 21outrage

Another item which should be noted. On or about the same day where this site dumped the thread titled "Jim Crumley's Trebark" started by Jumpman... (2006, I think), I signed up on Bowsite.com as a registered user. I started a thread with the same title as this one, and began to publish a few of my intital posts there. This one only took about 20 minutes or so, until I was banned from the site. Let it be known today!


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## 21outrage

Stubborn - Right On! I agree! And you can count on that! Thanks!


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## 21outrage

Here now... I found one that I already scanned that day....


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## MOC

I still have no idea what you're talking about, and still suggest a cliff notes version of your story.


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## 21outrage

OK... Now since we are on the subject of being banned... and dumping threads, I'll now refer back to an earlier post within this thread dated Aug. 9, 2011. The thread that was dumped on this site...was gaining an average of 300 views per day, and had been going strong for about *25 days*. I have used the term "critical mass" to describe to friends... the nature of the communications within that thread at that time. If you had followed it, you will know exactly what I mean. Additionally... the thread shown above, was both started, and dumped, on Aug. 10, 2010. Please note for the record... that THESE NEXT couple of POSTS *SHALL REMAIN... a YOU DECIDE*, as I will now present some additional info. I refuse to allow judgment upon me...and based on the info here... now being presented. Simply facts... *and for you to calculate the ods yourself*. I'm now assuming that this format will now accept a video file which I will be attaching here soon, as it will help explain this in full.

I've already set up some of the groundwork here above with the dates. On Wednesday, Aug. 10, early a.m. (approx. 6:45 am), as I left my daily coffee stop, and headed West towards my shop, I see a large Military plane traveling North to South, just out over the shorline, and along the shores of Lake Michigan. *No big deal... and to be expected*... as the President of the United States is coming to town the very next day, and to speak...way across town (*on the other side of town*) at the new LG Chem Battery Plant. His second visit here within about a year. It should come to no surprise to ANYONE, that there would be a military presence in the area.

A few years back, I saw the same thing as President George Bush spoke at our local fairgrounds, and I was there. In fact he stopped at a local famous ice cream store, and here's a picture of him standing next to a chainsaw carving that I had made earlier.








to be continued...


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## 21outrage

Now here's another good one... just for kicks! Here they closed the entire road for him to stop and have an ice cream.


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## 21outrage

Now back to the C-130... Now... about 3 hours later... (and YOU should use the "needle in the haystack" theory here, and as it pertains to both Air Space, geography, and coordiants), my building starts to rumble, and I look out my front window as a C-130 passes directly overhead...extremely low to the ground, heading East to West, with a slight North angle. I was amazed as I watched the smoke from the exhuast off the back of the plane. Now due to what the majority of my activities had been for the past month, my Gut said initally said... _______, if that wasn't intentional???? But it didn't stop there. Now just few minutes later... To be continued.


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## 21outrage

cont... "Now just a few minutes later"... I witnessed the same plane heading directly towards my building, coming from due North, and heading south, and I watched again in amazement, as it made a 90 degree bank turn to the West, again about 1000 ft. off the ground, and just before my building, and over a residential area...for the most part.

Now at his point... this seemed more to me that simply a coincidence, but it didn't exactly stop there. A few minutes later...

to be continued...


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## 21outrage

Now a few minutes later... a third pass, and a few minutes after that... a fourth. The last one I caught on video


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## MOC

You just lost the little credibility you may have had. LMAO. You actually believe the gov't scrambled jets because of you.


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## 21outrage

Shoot! looks like I will have to post this on YOUTUBE first, in order to attach. Will do... you gotta see, for full perspective.

Until then... YOU DECIDE!


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## 21outrage

moc - SORRY - I already stated this was for YOU to decide, and by the way... they were already up there anyway! I never said that they scrambled any jets on my behalf. simply presenting some unusual circumstances.


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## 21outrage

And you must have to admit... this is somewhat UNUSUAL... don't you think? A Coincidence?


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## 21outrage




----------



## 21outrage

Now... simply accept the past few posts as another matter of fact. I'm not saying that it is a coincidence, and I'm not saying that it's not, and I already stated that I will refuse any direct accusations like the one above already posted. In fact... I won't even reply to any more of the same. Good Day now.


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## 21outrage

Last post of the day... and after a quick spot check... I just got bumped off as a user on the facebook page of the POMA. The Professional Outdoor Media Association, (mentioned above earlier within) wherby they removed a couple of my select posts in the last couple of days. One was my "YOU HUNT?" graphic, and the second one... was a link to this forum/thread. Seems as if I will now have to pull out the records from the interviews of Laura Lee Dovey, and John E. Phillips... and divulge more.


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## eaglecaps

Please take off the tin foil hat before the black helicopters start showing up too. This thing your working on is really starting to get old. I really used to like the History area of this forum, but this stuff is really getting old...anyone else agree? I'm not sure any one else cares anymore but you.


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## 21outrage

eaglecaps - then simply leave... and don't come back. That's your choice - obviously. I like the 162 views overnight on this thread, and would like to see it get back up to matching the other thread - of 300/day. This desires referrals. The overnight qauntity of views - blows a hole in your theory that no one cares but me. ta da.


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## 21outrage

and you might want to read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil)


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## 21outrage

Robert O. Smith - Continental Motors, later Teledyne Continental Motors, Muskegon, MI.

The Deserving Pioneer!


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## 21outrage

I went on record in the removed thread... that I am not a person that runs around daily, or in my life... as a conspiracy theorist. I'm forced to do this again today, and I will adamantly refuse those types of accusations as well.

The definition posted, two posts above... is there because certain individuals within the legal profession... had brought this term to the forefront, and to me... regarding my project. This of course came only after a complete review of the guts of the documentation related. When you have a seasoned professional tell you that they believe in you, and that the information that you have presented as facts appear to be the true account, and additionally within... the word "pawn" is used, well, that certainly solidifies my position within.


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## 21outrage

and I particularly like the portion within that definition that states : "Both the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Department of Justice bring legal actions for conspiracies to violate the securities laws".


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## 21outrage

Here is another link to one of the individuals involved with what I have referred to as the "holding company"... "Corporate Registered Agent, Inc". formed Dec. 1974, that eventually was responsible for the formation of Bowing Enterprises, Inc./Trebark.

http://www.arbitration-associates.com/Carr-Jr bio.pdf


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## stubborn

MOC said:


> I still have no idea what you're talking about, and still suggest a cliff notes version of your story.


he is a local (from my hometown) guy who's dad invented camouflage then got screwed big time and he is trying to set the record straight.... treebark camo was his dads invention... not crumlys...


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## 21outrage

and here's another link - directly related to the same info above.

http://www.nixonpeabody.com/attorneys_detail1.asp?ID=192


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## 21outrage

thanks stubborn! You from Muskegon orginally? I agree with your post 100%, especially about the part of "setting the record straight".


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## 21outrage

"THEY" obviously did not ever count on this happening. They figured that with the young and inexperinced ages of the 3 sons of Robert O. Smith at the time, and through their seperation from their dad via a divorse, cities, and medical issues, that this would never come to be. Guess what? The underestimated one of the three sons of prior Marine... BOB SMITH. This son, that follows the Marine code... "ALWAYS FAITHFUL".


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## 21outrage

Here is one that I don't think that I have yet posted, but that I believe is somehow related to the big picture. You will again see the Ronald Fobes patent... listed at the top of this doc as a reference. Now Ronald Fobes... claims that "he never made a dime" off of his patent.






I had at least two documented phone interviews (maybe three)with Ronald Fobes, (retired and living in FL), and now... he refuses to call me back at all. The information that is included within those files remains questionable at best. I also interviewed the lawyer that handled the Fobes Patent, and that too... remains very suspect. The last time I contacted him, I tracked him down in Canada (working for a huge gas/oil gonglomerate) and he returned my call from Canada. But when he realized that it was me again calling, he hung up on me immediately.


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## 21outrage

I'll go on record here today too, that I provided many of the individuals that were directly involved with these processes, and in which I have had direct communications with, the opportunity to come clean with some information that may assist me further with a resolution here. I offered them my understanding, and my capabilities if any... to limit any potential negitive consequences that may come form this, hense they were proven guilty later on. None of them have stepped forward, and now... once again... I'll be forced to let the chips fall where they will fall. As far as I am concerned... some bad choices, from some very educated individuals.


----------



## stubborn

21outrage said:


> thanks stubborn! You from Muskegon orginally? I agree with your post 100%, especially about the part of "setting the record straight".


From and still stuck there.....


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## 21outrage

When I first contacted a one James F. Jordan, attorney (profile link -earlier within) He originally denied being part of Corporate Registered Agent, Inc., but after I forwarded him the documents via email... he called me back, left me a message in my absence at the time, and the message stated... Mr. Smith, "yes, that is my signature". I interviewed him by phone later... and he made the following comment to me when I was asking about C.R.A.Inc., he said... and I quote: "someone came to us and asked us to be a registered agent", but when I asked him who that was... he said that he did not remember.

The last time I contacted him by phone, he was extremely HOT! He said something similar to this... that you're problem is not with me, it is with the firm that handled your father's business. He also stated that he didn't want me to contact him again, and that he was forwarding all of this information to his lawyer. To that I say... fine. He is one of those I mentioned above... where I stated my mind, and my ear is open, in case you change your mind about further information.


----------



## 21outrage

Now Roger D. Middlekauff - deceased... lawyer, lobbist, and both part of Corp. Reg. Agent, Inc., and on the letter presented way earlier with firm representing interests of the Nixon Whitehouse, well... here's a link to an organization that he was very involved with. You will see under the heading..."legal and structural coordination" his name there many times.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=International_Life_Sciences_Institute

This should provide you with some insight on the Power that this guy held in DC.


----------



## 21outrage

Then there's a Edward C. O'Connel - part of Corp. Registered Agent, Inc.... licensed in DC since 57.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=22&..._gc.r_pw.&fp=ece2c2d668f63f07&biw=999&bih=535


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## 21outrage

and here's the physical location of the offices of Corp. Reg. Agent, Inc.


----------



## 21outrage

Now for my last couple of post for the day... another example of the individuals scoping in on me on my linkedin page. First...that's all fine and dandy...because I have nothing to hide. They all obviously know where I am, as I have said before... I have exposed myself to many entities along the way. Best I can figure, is that these profiles, or names that appear out of no-where... on my linkedin page, must come from a previous search done by others. How else would they show up as "People You May Know"? One... a gentleman affiliated with a lawfirm out of PA. A guy by the name of Gessner. Well, with a little digging... here's a couple of items I both found, and had also confirmed, that included his father's name.


----------



## 21outrage

and two...






ding ding ding ding!!!!!!!


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## 21outrage

Now, as far as the contact person that was referenced here within (Gessner -PA), let me be clear that I am not applying any aspects of involvement with the gentleman from the PA law firm. It's just sort of funny how others that may have been involved in one way or another with the past processes, seem to be dragging others in with them. Now as you might imagine... I have already sent the above two docs back to the guy in PA, and asked him about the linkedin connection ????... basically letting him know, that I know. I orignally sent him a connection request, but I obviously did not get a reply, so I found him via email, and sent my knowlege that way. 

My two folders stuffed with information on the reverse phone number searches alone - and on the hang up phone calls I have recieved over time, are approaching 3" thick. Can't say for sure if all of them are affiliated... but have a hunch (and some where I would consider as holding additional proof) that some are. Consider this... a word to the wise... as I do plan in the future, to obtain a court order to obtain ALL of my incoming phone records. I have enough evidence in so many different areas to warrant this.

so otherwise... STOP calling me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! unless you plan to talk to me.

Good Day Now!


----------



## 21outrage

and just before I go today... I will also once again... send out this plea... to all viewers that are believing what they are seeing here... to share this information with as many friends and associates that you may have. *Remember... It was not only me and my two brothers that were deceived... you as well...along with the world, were also deceived.* This should piss off the ordinary man!

I stated this before in the previouly removed thread, and I'll state it here again today. I stand today for myself and my family, but also for ALL that have had any similar circumstances happen to them in thier lives. I love the quote... "The truth will set you free"... and this quote by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow... “Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”


----------



## 21outrage

FYI.... Source: Support to MASSTER Phase II Camouflage Test - "unclassified" - Army Natick Research & Development Command, Report # 76-38-CEMEL. Type of Report and Period Covered - Summary of Research & Development July 74-July 75. Report date: April 1976. *It states:* "An evaluation, conducted during MAASTER combined test ACCB II and TRICAP I,2 indicated that the camouflage posture of participating Army units *required considerable improvement*. The VCofSA indicated a desire that MAASTER take a leading role *in developing innovative camouflage techniques*. As a result, MAASTER developed a camouflage evaluation program, and this report documents Phase I of that program"

then it goes on to later state....

"Before Phase I was completed *it became apparent* that a second excercise would be necessary, *mainly to compensate for the rather low level of emphasis on camouflage of the individual soldier*. This is stressed in pland for Phase II Camouflage Test, *that began in the summer of 1975*".

the above... and example of "Storming Media" Pentagon Reports - mentioned earlier as purchased by me. do you think this all fits the TIME TABLE fellas?


----------



## 21outrage

As you might already be able to see... this project has some deep history behind it.


----------



## 21outrage

Boeing (above) and Bowing... from first ad in JUNE-JULY issue - Bowhunter Magazine, 1980.

NOT... July 1980. Coincidence? Not!

Will address this later as well.


----------



## 21outrage

Feb. 6, 2010... in final communications with a one "Johhny Buck" (mentioned earlier within), my last response to him after he makes the comment "stay safe", was...

Mr. Buck,

With all due respect... I saw it as a sort of a threat
in a way. The "adventure" as you called it, should be
referred to, as more as a mission. A mission that involves in part,
stories previously written...that one must read between the lines, and
again, with all due respect...and taking into consideration
your extensive military experience, a mission you know...
always has the ultimate objective of a successful completion.
This mission started out with a simple objective. To publish a
handful of photos and give credit to a pioneer - where credit was
due. It is not my fault that the facts being uncovered, reveal
a much more complicated situation.


----------



## 21outrage

I don't think that I have posted this one yet here, (but I did in the other removed thread).
13 attorneys listed on the original POA from the patent application, where only 2 on the patents from the Bowing/Crumley Patents... and from the rather large firm at the time of Burns, Doane, Swecker and Mathis. Will get to profiles on all of these guys in the future. I'll tell you this... the U of M, and Georgetown Law... play a considerable cooresponding relationship within.


----------



## 21outrage

and a very key part of the docuement above - highlighted here.


----------



## 21outrage

and from one of the shreads of info that the firm gave me, and after first telling me that everything was destroyed, and that there was one piece of paper, in one manilla folder, and this only contained very limited info.

This one establishes a PRIOR attorney/client relationship 10 YEARS PRIOR.


----------



## 21outrage

And this... after I attempted to obtain more information from the firm, as to who was noted as responsible for destroying the files, and when do their records indicate that the files were destroyed. I additionally requested info on the dates in which I followed up with the firm after my dad's death, and quite possibly before that... a similar visit there by my older brother. These of which I, (and most likley he) were told... in short... that this was a dead issue, with no where to go from there. Let me assure you that my letter in no way contained a "tone", it was simply requesting info to be returned in a timely fashion. They originally turned over some slivers of info within a half hour, and upon an impromtu, surprise visit from me, and these particular requests, where dragging out for about 2 weeks. Now, based on my certified letter to them, and after having obtained my dad's patent docs from the USPTO - which took over 1.5 years by the way, and still these circumstances surrounding this remain very suspect, THEY knew...based on my letter to them, that I had now held much specifics of the original documentation.


----------



## 21outrage




----------



## 21outrage

Now... many of you that were following the other thread, had seen some of this before, but because that thread was removed... they essentially created more work for me to re-post it all again. Oh well. As far as I am concerned... the nature of the removal of the other thread... threatens direct elements of the constitution, and as it relates to the FREEDOM OF SPEECH! The facts need to, and should be... allowed to be presented. I'll get to the other slivers of info recieved from the firm in the future, as they are key.

again... copy, paste... copy paste... etc.


----------



## 21outrage

Now before I sign off here today for a while, I'm going to add a portion of a post that had presented earlier in the removed thread.

It's only a part of a certain larger explantion from my end, where I was spelling out additional specifics about my life... but I believe that it's important today to place this back within these comments. here it is in part....

"the info presented here should not be construed with greed or need, but remain a simple matter of both family, and principle".


----------



## 21outrage

and as I leave... I will leave you all with this. Now when you conisder everything that I have set fourth so far, and when you consider all of the money, power, lawyers, etc., etc. etc... that are currently standing on the other side of all of these facts, that SOMEONE... AT LEAST SOMEONE... would be doing something about this BY NOW??????????????????????????????????????

My humble opinion... Is that "*They" know that I am Right*, and realistically... "they" "are stuck between a rock and a hard spot".

Good Day to All. And to the ones involved... may your potentially sleepless nights, *equal mine*, and you might as well... properly add... a few years to yours.


----------



## 21outrage

*The CAMO STORY of the YEAR*

Have you heard about the BOMBSHELL STORY that is posted in the "History" section of these threads
titled... The "True" Father of Tree Bark Camouflage? If you haven't... you aught to check it out. This one is for all hunters, and all outdoorsman... to see. A story that you might not believe... UNTIL YOU SEE THE FACTS.

Prepare yourself before you go there... because it WILL change almost everthing that you thought to be TRUE from your past. 

Yes, it's my thread... and yes the photo attached is me, at 13 yrs. of age... but NOT in 1980 or beyond... Try 1974. About six years before Jim Crumley's Trebark hit the Market.

Now don't be MAD at me... because if he were your father... you would do the same thing. If you get mad
at anyone... let me suggest that you get mad at them - as they deceived you as well.







plus... YOU can see this also on Facebook at MYDADSCAMO.


----------



## 21outrage

The "True" father of Tree Bark Camo - the Visionary that changed the industry as you know it today... Robert Otis Smith, 1932 - 1982, Muskegon, MI.


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## crazy

where is the History section at i would like to read this before making any comment


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## 21outrage

and this one... way before 1974... and still in the hand drawn, air brushed methods, and way before the final screen printed images - that I helped make, in the basement of my father's home.

I will probably make just one more post here... and if you want to see more...(which you should) go find the thread in the history section!


----------



## 21outrage

just click on the main thread button, and page down to the history area... you should find there. if not... just do an advanced search for threads... with user name... 21outrage. You will find it. If you are new... You'll have allot to catch up on!


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## 21outrage

From Patent application - stamped recieved by the USPTO... Sept. 11, 1975 Baby!


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## 21outrage

and they dropped the ball, and on purpose... as he was heading in for his second open heart surgery of the direct days. This... ONLY after he had been offered a 60/40 deal, and one that he didn't like.


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## bmxrider11976

wow buddy


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## Christopher67

*Interesting.....*


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## 21outrage

Now I'm done here for now. I don't have time to address more than one thread at a time. Please feel free to ask questions, or to send me a personal message if you want to talk in confidence. If you want to send Lawyers, writers, publishers, or anything like that... my way, please do. I won't forget where the referral came from. Additionally... If you have any information that you may think might be valuable to me... again... please do not hesitiate to contact me immediately. Good Day! Mark T. Smith


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## bmxrider11976

wowwwwww


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## ToddB

So basically your saying Crumley stole the idea from your old man?


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## 21outrage

here is the link to the history section.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1510882

jump on board... the road to the truth!


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## 21outrage

ToddB - with all due respect friend... go to other link and see for yourself.

Now everyone have a great weekend. Tis the Season!


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## 21outrage

bmxrider... thanks man... that would be a WOW!


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## ChasePhase

My uncle Forrest invented the smiley face... Now every forum has them.


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## brokenlittleman

Here we go again. 20 plus pages of documents and pictures that mean nothing to us.


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## whack&stack

i have read all of this. i have come to this conclusion. bill jordan and toxey haas make some real nice camo.


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## Christopher67

*So um...where does this lead us going forward with Treebark Camo?* :cocktail:


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## whack&stack

i read the whole other one just a few minutes ago and came the conclusion thank god for bill jordan and toxey haas because camo has certainly improved.


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## Nytro69

Based on what I can gather... This is what I've come up with.

1: Your Dad OBVIOUSLY had developed a unique camouflage pattern based on a "tree bark" design. Sometime in the mid 70's

2: Jim Crumley developed a unique camouflage pattern also based on a "tree bark" design which he professes he did in the late 70's

3: Jim Crumley had a degree in and taught MARKETING... Therefore... I assume... Jim Crumley was a talented MARKETER

4: Your Father... while obviously clever and inventive... apparently... was not a great MARKETER

5: There is some discrepancy and convoluted evidence as to why your Father did not win out his patent over Mr. Crumley

6: You are at LEAST 6 years TOO late to pursue any kind of what-not etc... Legally Crumley's patent has expired, it is in the public domain now.

7: I completely understand your frustration... Jim Crumley had a HUGE hit with selling what looks on the surface to be a camouflage pattern VERY similar to what your Father developed.
I get that you're trying to set the record straight etc... BUT let's be honest here... IF your Dad had won his patent... and beat Mr. Crumley to the punch... Judging from
Mr. Crumley's obvious business savvy and marketing expertise... I think... In my opinion... Mr. Crumley could and would have simply modified his idea to win a design patent of his
own and the story would still be the same...

8: As far as the "My Dad thought of it first" argument you are trying to make here... I think you make a good point and the evidence suggests that he did... BUT the sad truth is...
HE didn't do anything with it... he had... according to YOUR evidence at least 6 years from 1974 till Mr. Crumley came on the scene in about 1980... TO actually DO something
with his idea... and... HE DIDN'T... Mr. Crumley did. End of story... It doesn't matter now... and really it didn't matter then... Mr. Crumley could have just as easily thrown
some leaves or sticks or something into his pattern (much like he later did in subsequent patterns) and gotten his patent approved since it was different from your Dad's

9: Being an inventor myself... actually inventing something useful is only about 10% of the equation... my patent attorney tells me every time... only about 1% of all patents
go on to market and make any kind of money... Sad but true... It doesn't matter how good your idea is... If you can't sell it... NO ONE CARES

10: I hate to draw conclusions about anyone but HONESTLY... I know you're upset by it and you feel your Dad was cheated... and maybe... just maybe... somewhere along the way...
He was... but SERIOUSLY dude... This is ancient history... The patents would be expired now whether Jim Crumley won it or not... There is nothing to be gained by doing what
you're doing other than what you've already done... You've shown that your Dad was clever and designed a camouflage pattern back before anyone else really put it into practice.
That's it... That's all you can ever hope to accomplish... Don't be upset... You've convinced me... BUT this whole "conspiracy" thing and the C130 fly-by video... SERIOUSLY?!?!
You simply come across with all that stuff as someone who is off their meds... You make a good argument about your original statement and present decent evidence to prove it
STOP there...


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## hunter41606

I dont understand either thread. You arent clear in explaining anything, only posting pictures and trying to prove what exactly? Did you patent anything? Im really confused and actually I dont really care that much about the camo pattern.


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## Iron Mike

I need to agree; WTH is this thread all about?


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## tenpin

I am still totally confused with this also camo, gov. secrets, lying doctors I have read till I am lost with this, I do not say I do not believe this is true but its confusing to read.


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## diesel094

very confusing, but if you have substantial proof then "Winkelvoss" them and sue them?.... It has to be clear that they used the same tree type im assuming


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## ILLbucknut

This thread is pointless.


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## ShootingABN!

Ok. Congrats.....


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## ShannonM

Cool story, bro.


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## HawgEnvy

sue their asses. as far as thr treebark camo goes,it WORKS. better than the others that are meant to attract the hunters attention


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## 21outrage

to the negitive comments... I'll simply say that I already adressed YOU(s) within my very first post here. to those that see the extreme point here... and the principle of the matter at hand, I say... thank you for your understanding. yes there is allot to this story, and yes, it is very complicated, but it has been figured out for the most part from my end, and where it will end... is anyone's guess right now. I'll also say this. they never counted on this happening, and many got a little too comfortable over the years with their stories & interviews, and within those, they have helped me put all of the pieces together. I AM correct with my findings... and the industry was deceived. may the truth and justice somehow prevail.


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## 21outrage

Nytro69 I will address your comment here later... but for right now... I'll simply laugh myself to sleep about your comments wherby indicating that Crumley was a Savvy Marketer. If he was so savy... why didn't he have the fore sight to catch the demand?, and why did he get rolled by Realtree... and later Mossy Oak? 

You may have stated that you read everything... but I think that you missed a great deal within. i.e. the heath issues #1... and by the way... more importantly... that
it wasn't even his idea to begin with. don't you get it - a holding company carried the concept from Dec. 74 forward... until a decision was made to roll forward in a certain direction. 

I'll take the time to disect your long reply later. Good night.


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## Oneofour

:darkbeer: :thumbs_do


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## 724wd

so the government killed your dad to give the patent he never utilized to another guy? and now they're targeting you with military aircraft buzzing you apartment?


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## hunter41606

724wd said:


> so the government killed your dad to give the patent he never utilized to another guy? and now they're targeting you with military aircraft buzzing you apartment?


Hahaha that's about as accurate as I can figure trying to wade through all this garbage.


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## ibwhnt

Please address the couple of comments about your camo pattern looking more like timber ghost than trebark. And how, if at all, that factored into any of this.


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## 21outrage

Good Saturday to you all. All I have to say today on this thread is this. 546 views since about 6 pm last night, and the other thread... 458 views all day yesterday. All Good from my end!


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## 21outrage

christopher67... I don't know the answer to your question. I do know this. What they entered the market with in 1980 was obviously a rushed version, and the timeline and the additional facts, back all of this! It was by far... and inferior design as compared to what had previously been presented by my father. Rememeber... the same patent examiner that was working on, and kept on rejecting my dad's patent... worked on the Bowing/Crumley patents that were later approved.


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## 21outrage

Ibwhnt - I don't know allot about timberghost at this point, but I do know this... I have read your comment in the thread I started yesterday, and as far as I am concerned... you are a naysayer... and your comments will be taken as such. Everyone is entititled to their own opinion.


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## Backstrapz

That camo is no good anyway.


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## 21outrage

Now Nytro69. My first thought this morning was to completely ignore your entire post, and accept it as one man's opinion, but since I already stated that I would address it, I'll do so... line by line.

Per your post above.

1.) I agree
2.)Someone developed a rushed and inferior design, and the varied stories surrounding those are just that. Varied... and I have proven many of the written items related, presented as facts, as completely un-true, or extremely questionable at best.
3.)when you "assume"... You make and ass out of u and me. Get it??? ass u me. To my knowledge Crumley did not have a degree in Marketing. Yes it has been reported that he taught Marketing, but as far as a talented "MARKETER"... I don't believe it for a minute. There are other factors here to consider. Fresh out of college... lands a job in a 3 yr. old, at the time... a prestigous high school... well, my guess there, is that he was a shoe in there as well. Many items within the stories simply don't match up.
4.) you are wrong about that. he was on his way... his intent was solid, and there. It was his heath issues that stood in his way, and his lawyers with the 60/40 deal. 
5.) Win out Patent over Crunley? This statment is obsurb. The bottom line here is that his patent went in and out of the USPTO on a few occasions, each time with a rejection of sorts. A rejection does not mean that it cannot be overcome with proper ammendments along the way. His lawyers chose to allow his patent to go un-addressed, as he was heading in for his second open heart surgery, and this... since the days that he initally filed the patent. The full timeline tells the story here. His lawyers let it lie without a reply, then it was stamped abandoned. Even then, they chose to not reply, and file a proper procedure to revive an abandonment notice. Why? Because of the "holding co." formed in DC, hanging in the wings.
6.) I am aware of the fact that his patent has expired. As fas as being too late, I believe that you are wrong. This is not a matter of an expired patent, but a matter of everything else involved.
7.) glad you understand the frustration, and yes he had a "HUGE" hit, but my dad's lawyers knew about the "HUGE" hit, and that's why they intially offered him the 60/40 deal on his idea. The rest you state about the savvy marketing... well... I simply don't believe any of it. 
8.)you are right... my dad is the "true" father of tree bark camouflage. Let the record show. As far as him not doing anything with it... well, that's simply not the case. His lawyers failed him, and his medical issues had become a huge obstical within. 
9.) here you talk about being an inventor, and ideas. well... this was just one of his ideas... and this ONE... everyone must aagree was a dead ringer. He knew it, they knew it. So be it.
10.) "ancient history"... I disagree 100%. This is a matter of RE-RIGHTING HISTORY in itself. Part of my goals and objectives here were bringing this story and the facts to the forefront, and this... when all others have failed to do so. As far as "that's all you can hope to accomplish", I also disagree 100%, and this is because there are many other options looming at this very moment. Like I said before... we wil just have to wait and see, won't we?

Now in closing... I have already stated - regarding the C-130 thing that you mention... that I was only presenting some very unusal circumstances, and that those were for you all to decide. I reject your comment about "being someone off their meds", and for this... I reject your opinions, and mostly in their entirety. *YOU HAVE FAILED* TO ADDRESS EVRYTHING ELSE THAT PRESENTS A MATTER OF A CIVIL CONSPIRACY, the lawyers, the connections, the documents that prove it all does not match their varied stories, etc., etc. etc. You only chose to read between the lines. I suggest that you go back and review everything again, so you can get a proper perspective on all. 

I will now make it a point to NOT address any additional comments made by you... and if you don't like what you are seeing here... then simply do not come back. Good Day to you... and with all this...you have wasted some of my valuable time!


----------



## 21outrage

whack&stack... your conclusion... "bill jordan and toxey haas make some real nice camo".

Well, I agree. There is no doubt that these companies have gone on to be extremely successful, but as an individual that had had posted in the removed thread, and this person who indicated that he was personal friends with Crumley along the way... he stated... that Crumley had done a great deal of good for the industry. My comment to that was... He may very well have, but that does not mean that he deserved it. The same may simply pertain to others. I see many things evident within, that may show an element of a "silver spoon" concept here. It has just become part of my job, to present FACTS along the way. 

Now believe me when I say this... I have way more evidence than what I have presented thus far. Realistically... this process could go on for a very long time. I may have to bow out of these threads ... and simply let this all take it's toll from here.
I do have other very important things to do, and I Will finish my entire objectives in due time. In the mean time... my intial objective has been met. This story IS IN THE VIENS OF THE INDUSTRY... and will most likley NEVER go COMPLETELY AWAY.
I remain confident that this story will be talked about around the campfire for a very long time to come, as it has spanned the nation now, and most likely even futher. To that... I say... SO BE IT.


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## 21outrage

I'll close with this today. A big THANK YOU once again, to ALL out there that believe me, and want me to continue my mission!

hoo ha! as they say... "the truth will set you free".


----------



## mathewshooterxt

We have an episode of the X Files in the making here!


----------



## tiogajoey

Who cares?


----------



## NCBowhunter84

Um, okay. A little more explaining would have helped.


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## bmxrider11976

are you married? have kids? do you hunt? have a job? i understand you are disgruntled about your fathers supposed idea ot trebark camo. what i see from all of these posts are the ramblings on of a person who has nothing better to do with his time. Yes, your father may have the first documented usage of trebark camo. but thats about all he has. Crumley had the patent, plain and simple. Yes i believe you, your father invented it. But with inventions, need to come hundreds of other documents, that you have some of, but i guess not all that are deemed necessary by the goverment. Crumley had the patent.


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## gman82001

Predator rocks....w.t.h??


----------



## bowhunterdave

wow, I want that 5 minutes back...........:thumbs_do


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## 21outrage

Happened to stop back to computer. Yes I am married, happily by the way... many, many years now, with two great kids. Yes I hunt. I did take a break for many years after the death of my father... but when something is in your blood, it has a way of coming back around. I've been self employed for almost 22 years, and this after a few years of working for the man, suit an tie... and within the shopping mall marketing and management areas. Last job before self employment was as General Mall Manager in Richmond, VA. Signs and Graphics industry ever since those days. I have a bachelors degree in Business "Marketing".

Sure seems as if you have changed your tune from your inital post there...bmxer... and you statement about that it is "plain and simple", is simply not the case here.

dedication...shall not be construed with not having anyhting better to do.


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## stillern

I really don't get it...no disrespect to you or your father, Mr. Crumley, or anyone else who sells camo patters for that matter. But it's not like someone invented the pace maker here. All camo is patented by mother nature. The real genius of the successful "camo guys" like Jordan and Haas is/was/will be there ability to market it. I think we care a lot more than the deer care. I'm a young guy and I wonder how a deer was ever killed before the advent of "bone collector" swag lol!:wink:

Seriously, it's cool that you had a father that was so into hunting and that he passed that on to you. That's something nobody can steal. That's priceless.


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## whack&stack

I am sitting in a treestand wearing realtree hardwoods and care less about this today than yesterday lol. Dude needs to get over it christopher columbus gets credit for discovering america we know that's not true but its just the way it is. Life just aint fair at times. Still say I am glad bill jordan and toxey haas came along to bring good camo to market.


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## 21outrage

Here's a link that you should read. Pay attention to the Military aspects, the UofM history, and the lawfirm in Grand Rapids, MI. formed in 1946. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford


----------



## UnlicenseDremel

I followed the link, and see a lot of stuff, but still don't see any "story".... but then again I'm not the sharpest hammer in the toolbox.


----------



## mn5503

stillern said:


> I really don't get it...no disrespect to you or your father, Mr. Crumley, or anyone else who sells camo patters for that matter. But it's not like someone invented the pace maker here. All camo is patented by mother nature. The real genius of the successful "camo guys" like Jordan and Haas is/was/will be there ability to market it. I think we care a lot more than the deer care. I'm a young guy and I wonder how a deer was ever killed before the advent of "bone collector" swag lol!:wink:
> 
> Seriously, it's cool that you had a father that was so into hunting and that he passed that on to you. That's something nobody can steal. That's priceless.



Ahhhh, young but also wise grashoppah!


----------



## whack&stack

stillern said:


> I really don't get it...no disrespect to you or your father, Mr. Crumley, or anyone else who sells camo patters for that matter. But it's not like someone invented the pace maker here. All camo is patented by mother nature. The real genius of the successful "camo guys" like Jordan and Haas is/was/will be there ability to market it. I think we care a lot more than the deer care. I'm a young guy and I wonder how a deer was ever killed before the advent of "bone collector" swag lol!:wink:
> 
> Seriously, it's cool that you had a father that was so into hunting and that he passed that on to you. That's something nobody can steal. That's priceless.




Great post well said agree 100%. The fella that invented checkered plaid should be pissed as it was first used as camo back in the old days lol


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## 21outrage

Source: http://openjurist.org/355/us/484/uni...rs-corporation

in part from law case: "In this case the United States owns a manufacturing plant at Muskegon, Michigan. In 1952 it granted Continental Motors Corporation the right to use this plant in the course of performing several supply contracts Continental had with the Government".


----------



## IndianaPSE

Is it me or does this thread read like a Seinfeld episode?


----------



## 21outrage

Question today to the viewers of this thread. Can ANYONE provide an explantion for why the Mayor of Washington DC, Marion Barry was involved within the Corporation documents of Bowing Enterprises, Inc.? and can ANYONE help explain the Ronald Fobes Patent that was filed before Crumley's, and issued before Crumley''s? I would love to hear some good analysis on these two items. Please!


----------



## dac

I thought you already posted all this on here once.


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## bmxrider11976

it is plain and simple. thats why his friggen name is the one attached to the patent!!! i can no longer read this thread or the other one at the risk of actually punching my computer screen.


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## 21outrage

from part of already posted - video interview - transcript - video removed from outfittertuff website - after someone I knew, downloaded a copy.

Crumley's reply to a question...

It’s Billions…Billions of dollars, yes Billions. *We* didn’t know that, and *we* were the only hunting camouflage for five years, but I could not catch the growth. Once again if I had had the foresight, I probably should have taken the company public, and gotton the money to fill the demand, I could not catch the demand, and what that does, is it opens the doors for the other people

KEY WORD - WE


----------



## Jeffress77

I understand your father's anguish, and I would feel the same way. But what good does it do now? What is the end result you are looking for? I don't think that you will ever get compensation for what happened- from the company or from Mr. Crumley. 
But nevertheless, it is a good story to take the place of these hundreds of "which broadhead or what does he score" threads


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## 21outrage

bmx - SEE YA! and Mucho Later. you'll probably be peaking yet from time to time, i'll bet.


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## rutjunky

Easy guys. No point in being rude. Man. Why all the negativity. Let wait and hear the whole story


----------



## bmxrider11976

rutjunky said:


> Easy guys. No point in being rude. Man. Why all the negativity. Let wait and hear the whole story


the whole story is posted in the history section. get ready to be thoroughly frustrated with documents that seem to have nothing to do with one another, and theories that are about as far fetched as you can get.


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## 21outrage

Here's another question. Can anyone tell me why there have never been any published pictures of the reported... tie-dyed, ugly, not looking like tree bark at all, non-vertical, proto-type designs of Crumley's? supposively dating back to 72 or 73? I'll re-post next... some specific pictures that Crumley sent to me within my direct email communications with him a while back. 

until then... here's another clip that relates from the removed video interview. he states...while talking about his prototypes.

And ah, I hadn’t gotten that technologically advanced…you know, to do the bark part. And the finished project of tie dying in this brown Rit Dye, honest to goodness looked like someone actually threw up on me, or worse, it was bad looking stuff…until you got into a tree.


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## 21outrage

and this part that pertains...

Int: But was it true that you actually sat down with a t-shirt, and you got different color markers, and you started…
JC
I did, and, well it actually wasn’t a t-shirt, it was grey dickies workwear. You know you could buy, a long sleve shirt, and a pair of pants, in grey, bought them straight from the store, Dickies Workwear, they had, I think, Kaaki and, but I wanted the grey…and I tye-died those in in brown Rit Dye. So at that, my first suit had nothing to do with the bark of a tree, or a tree trunk, I just wanted the grey and brown so that I could…sit next to a tree.


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## 21outrage

and this one... all these only from the removed tape.

And that part hadn't changed, *we* didn't, *I* didn't...I didn't know at the time, when I finally, that was probably in 72, 73...ah, it took 4 or 5 more years...to make up my mind, to actually give it a try. It also took a while to find out how you took artwork, and got it onto fabric in the textile industry. that was a major thing.

all of these directly relate to what I will post next, and these do not include the other stories!

In the last line above...about taking a while in the textile industry... well... pretty darn sure that he was not in charge of this at all.


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## rutjunky

Well if its that much b.s. i could care less. I do like treebark camo though


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## cornfedkiller

rutjunky said:


> *Well if its that much b.s. i could care less.* I do like treebark camo though


I think thats what everyone's point is..There is already a 20 page thread about this, they are wondering why we need another...


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## rutjunky

Ahhh. I see.


----------



## Junior.

I'm curious as to what your overall goal is? 

What in your mind is the best possible outcome of this?


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## buckbuck419

X2. Trying to figure that out myself.


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## Brett K

What about the trees? Who is representing them? After all, they came up with the pattern first.


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## Edge 1

I invented the color green, pay me.


----------



## lungbuster123

Heres my thoughts...


----------



## meathawg

Man, you would think this guy found the cure for cancer or something!! He's s real Erin Brockevich.


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## rutjunky

lungbuster123 said:


> Heres my thoughts...


Hahahahahaha


----------



## ColoCompound

And this is exactly the reason why even engineering degrees require a lot of writing and language classes. If you can't get your point across with a clear and concise story....you will never win the day even if you are completely in the right. 

Proof is in our White House. An intelligently made argument, even if completely wrong, will always win the day against a rambling, uneducated sounding argument, even if it is correct.

To the original poster. If you wish to take your argument anywhere, let alone a courtroom, you need to hire an attorney capable of stating the wrong done to your family in a legible and concise manner. As you write it, it sounds like you are wearing a tin foil hat and screaming at the spiders in the corner to stop killing your friends. If you were wronged, I hope you are made whole again...but you aren't doing your cause any favors.


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## hunt365

Are you going to do anything about it outher than posting in a forum?


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## cornfedkiller

hunt365 said:


> Are you going to do anything about it outher than posting in a forum?


Make a facebook page??


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## buckbuck419

Yea. Get to the point about this tread. If not, good luck hunting.


----------



## runningdeer

I think this is quite interesting. I would like to know if at this time there could be any legal ramifications for the the other camo companies or if 21's motivation is to just get this story out there. The leg work you have done is impressive. It's reassuring to see some people still stick up for themselves instead of rolling over and taking what the man dishes out.


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## 21outrage

Holly Cow... gotta love this one... 1349 views in only about 24 hrs. That's a great day!


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## 21outrage

Junior... the Main goal was to expose the truth, and now in part... I have done that. I'm far from done though. Secondary goals... well, Justice would be nice, and I'll simply leave it all up to you to think about the possibilities at that. I can only give away so much here you know. Meathawg... thanks...and I'll take that as a compliment. I've tried to reach her in the past, but to no avail. You might guess that I might try again. runningdeer... thank you too! I'll take the compliments as they come for the dedication and research already performed, and I've already stated that this is primarily about prinicple and family.

Now I best move on to the conversations I had with Crumley, and I'll start with the Photos that he sent me, and these... only after I pried him a few times to do so. You will see that he burned parts of his own stories within. 

Before I move to those... I'll applaud the 1,249 views that I got on the thread started yesterday in the main section of the forums titled... "The Camo story of the Year", and with that... this thread has recieved 327 views since about 6 pm last night. Love it baby...Love it. Ho Ha.


----------



## Brett K

21outrage said:


> Holly Cow... gotta love this one... 1349 views in only about 24 hrs. That's a great day!


Yes! Over 1300 bowhunters are wondering if you took your meds today.


----------



## 21outrage

Ok... I'm going to start this by including the second question, of the first two questions that I asked him on 7/26/10 in email communications, (I'll get to the first question later) and I'll quote from my email below: This email communication was ONLY after a short phone interview that I had with the author of "Where did Trebark Come From", and this commnication was abruptly ended by him, after it seems that my line of questioning got to hot for him to answer further.

My Question #2
2.) In the past 30 years, why is it, that there have never been, any published
photographs of what your (very few, limited, and distinctively different) inception stories
indicate as "hand drawn", "dabbed" on, or "tye-dyed", initial Trebark designs?


His answer to me was: and I quote from the email: 

2. In the early '80's there were magazine stories done, and at least one TV show about how Trebark started that included some of those pictures. They were pretty ugly, and where they are now I don't know. I do still have some of the clothing. They don't look anything like what the first Trebark pattern became, they were just gray and brown "splotches".

Now before I move to the photos... I'll fill you in on where this portion of the conversation went from there... I asked in response...
1.) would you be willing to take a picture of some of the original clothing
with grey and brown "spotches" that you say you still have, and forward me
a copy to preview? I am very interested in seeing the initial processes.

and

2.) what was the TV show that would have been the "one" mentioned in your
reply to my second question?

His reply....
1. Why?
2. The TV show was filmed probably in 1982-83 and was called " The Outdoor Trail". 

My Reply... 

1.) intrigued
2.) was the producer for that show Wayne Pierson?
and if not, who or what organization?

His reply...
1. Well the process for my first homemade patterns was taking a gray garment (long sleeve gray t-shirt will work nicely), tying knots in it, and dyeing it in brown Rit dye. Do that and you will have a replica. If you're interested in the process of printing a developed pattern on fabric you should contact a textile artist (for artwork pattern) or, just use very HD pictures and PhotoShop, which is how the patterns are developed today.

2. The Outdoor Trail was Wayne's production and aired on ABC affiliates for about 5 years. This was, of course, before cable and satellite.

My Reply: So I take it that you will not send me a pic?

His Reply: You have a description of the process, if I come across one of those first garments I'll take a picture.

My Reply: Ok thanks. I'm confident you know right where they are.
I would if I were you. I would imagine that these items
are of great historical significance to you, and your
operations today. I would have them in a glass case!

Hope you can send me a pic sometime soon. I will look
forward to it, and would appreciate the time it takes to do it.

His reply: I wish you were right, just didn't have the foresight!

****my note here... there's that word again..."foresight"

and just so you all know moving forward... Wayne Pierson, mentioned above... is the person that Crumley is now involved with at Outfitter Tuff.


----------



## 21outrage

And now before I get to the photos... I'll ask anyone and everyone out there... for this: If you have in your possession (ie. collections) or recall any such publication that may have run a story as indicated above by Crumley...about his proto-type or inception process, I will ask you today to come forward to me with this information! PLEASE. 

And on a second note here... one might expect persons in the media/tv/pubishing biz... to potentially archive their works. Today I'll call on Wayne Pierson or ABC, to produce a copy, as proof, that this show... that supposively featured this information in the early 80's, is in fact a true statement. I doubt that this will ever happen, and even if it did, my guess... that this video production would most likely even include... even new, or different verisons, of the stories being told today. Anyone with information on these stated items...please get in touch with me!


----------



## Uncle Bucky

Well I can understand to some degree. 

In 1993 I published a Golf improvement study guide book. Did all the legal jumbo. Sold it locally and did well, then tried to go nationwide with it. 

Sent it to Golf magazine for a review for their new product line. Also ran a small add in 3 months and sold about 2500 copies. Next thing I know 6 months later Golf Magazine is giving away an almost identical golfers log with a years subscription purchase.. Called my lawyer, they contacted the magazine and what happened was they changed just enough to get away with it. It was sad they did that, but what can you do.


----------



## 21outrage

post failure - will try again.


----------



## 21outrage

OK here we go. Here is the first of two photographs that Jim Crumley sent me via email, on July 28, 2010 at 12:36 pm
and here is his comment that went along with this. and I quote from the email:

It took some searching but we finally found two:

Shirt on the left is one of the hand-dyed and painted, probably from 1971, when I just wanted brown and gray camo. The other is the first proto-type jacket made from the first five yards of printed fabric, in 1978. COLOR]

NOW -shirt on left... "probably from 1971" he writes... well, within... he effectively pre-dates EVER OTHER WRITTEN STORY OUT THERE TODAY with the 1971 thing, where they all state around 72 or 73. And then... the second pic... first five yards in 1978, well, at least one of the stories states that the final design was finished in 1979... and remember... a finished picture of the product never appeared in Bowhunter Magazine until the OCT/NOV. issue 1980.
Before I move to the second photo that he sent along... I will add a couple of my cropped versions of the shirt on the left - for a closer review.
View attachment 1171096


----------



## Okie X

This guys dad invented treebark camo.

I read the original thread. It is hard to follow at times and the OP is still piecing it together.

We as bow hunters/hunters in general, if nothing else, should all say thanks to this guy and his dad. All the camo we love and use today.....it all started with this guy and his pops.

Thanks man. Hope it works out for you.


----------



## 21outrage

still encountering difficulties - don't know why the pic does not appear in full. trying here again now.


----------



## 21outrage

WOW...WOW...WOW... the old saying... you learn something new everyday... well, as I went to attach the above photo... guess what? as I set my mouse over the picture, a small screen pops up. In it... it says this:

Dimensions: 2800 X 2128
Date Picture Taken: 10/5/2009 my note here: HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM wow
Camera Model: Photosmart M525
Type: JPEG
Size: 1.3 MB

All I can say about this right at the moment is WOW... and so you all know... this was about the time my investigation went into high gear. I just did a quick spot check on some past emails, etc... and believe it or not... this explains the date of this photo.
I'll add this for now... HO HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 21outrage

I hate to get off track... but i have to admit... I also love it... Here's proof of my last statment. I started this particular process a bit earlier than is noted within this attachement as Thur. Oct. 29th, 2009, and only after I obtained my first batch of Bowhunter Mags that I puchased off of Craigslist. Up until then, I wasn't able to TIE the name Bowing to Crumley or Trebark based on any available stories, but once I got my hands on these select few...

The HUNT WAS ON. 

Here I get the first DOCS, previously requested, from the DC ARCHIVES.
View attachment 1171121


Gosh... Now isn't this exciting? I love it when things UNFOLD like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 21outrage

and I hate it when my attachements don't boot like they are supossed to.


----------



## 21outrage

back to my cropped versions now.


----------



## 21outrage

Does this look like a Circa 1971 shirt to you? with pleated back, and button in the back of the collar? Is that really Dickie's Workwear from the early 70's?


----------



## 21outrage

Does it match all of the descriptions previously noted... ie... ugly? tye-dyed? even looks so bad as someone threw up on me?

The company Dickies has a very long history... and a very intersting one at that. As you might guess, it had huge military obligations in it's days... probably why it was used in the stories themselves. All contacts with this company to verify the authenticity of this shirt, along with the button in the back, etc... have been met with NO replies.


----------



## 21outrage

Then there's picture No. 2, that he sent me. I'll get this new particular part out of the way right now.

When I pass my mouse over this picture... the box reads the following.

Dimensions: 2800 X 2128
Date Picture Taken: 2/1/2006 my note: (and yes... I was there too then, in case you are now wondering)
Camera Model: HP Photosmart M525
Type: JPEG
Size: 1.3 MB

will post pic seperately next... as I've been having troubles here. But now remember this before I do... he states the following about this second picture.

Other picture is first ever taken of me in the prototype suit in also 1978. Neither looks much like what we finally ended up marketing in 1980.


----------



## 21outrage

he says 1978, and it doesn't look like what we marketed in 1980. Not.


----------



## 21outrage

here's the upper portion of Bowing's Third Ad... that ran in Oct./Nov. issue of Bowhunter Magazine. 

If if looks like the indentical picture to YOU... then YOU are most likley CORRECT. 

(lead time then... late July, and into Aug.)


----------



## 21outrage

View attachment 1171139
and here's the top portion of the previous ad, ad #2, from the AUG/SEPT. issue of Bowhunter Magazine.

NOW... do I really have to ask you this? if that picture was taken of him in 1978, then why the ______ didn't it appear in the
ads until later in 1980? 

YOUR ANSWER: Because that reply from Crumley to me... WAS NOT THE TRUTH! Period.


----------



## 21outrage

aug/sept. ad 1980


----------



## 21outrage

Now backing up for a moment here, and before I get back to my number one question to Mr. Crumley... Here's a bit of history.

Jan. 12, 2010 - I make email contact, and with request to speak with John E. Phillips. I am told that he is out of town for a bit, but was given a good time frame to contact him back. My initial inquiry when asked... was "publishing".

Jan. 27, 2010 - My Phone interview with John E. Phillips - author of "Where did Trebark Come From".

Feb. 9, 2010 -10:56 am - I send another email to his secretary explaining that our first converstation was cut short, and that I still wanted to speak with him some more.

Later this same day... 2:05 pm - I get this reply back from John E. Phillips

Dear Mark: After our conversation, I talked with Jim Crumley, and he suggested that if you have any questions about who created Trebark camo or anything else about his company that you call him directly. Thanks. John E. Phillips 


Now I tried a few times to contact Jim via email, and I think... by phone, ??? and conisdering that my email communication actually started with him on 7/19/2010... approx. 6 mo. later... this is how he initally replied:

This is the first we've seen of your request, how can we help you?

Jim Crumley


----------



## 21outrage

on 7/21/2010... my email to Jim states in part, this:

that I am confident that you would remember the conversation
that you had with John E. Phillips, directly after he and I, both
shared email and verbal conversations.

the below, copied and pasted from his last email reply to me on
February 9, 2010.

Dear Mark: After our conversation, I talked with Jim Crumley, and he suggested that if you have any questions about who created Trebark camo or anything else about his company that you call him directly. Thanks. John E. Phillips 
I believe I placed the voice mail message that same day, or close to it.
Mark T. Smith

now onto question #1, which was... 1.) How did you come up with the name Bowing Enterprises?

to be continued...


----------



## 21outrage

Okie X - good for you! Kudos as they say! No tinfoil hat or meds needed here. The thread is working fine I see, and I'll dismiss all of the negitive comments. Thanks for reading... caring, and sharing. 

As it has been said in one classic movie... "YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH". This pertains to many as their memories of killing their first deer in Trebark Camo are SMASHED.


----------



## 21outrage

and WOW... it's gotta be a record for this site. so far... over 1000 VIEWS ALONE since this morning. ??? 

Objective accomplished by starting this new thread in another area - other than the History section. Maybe they will start
a new section for RE-RIGHTING HISTORY!


----------



## hunter41606

21outrage said:


> Okie X - good for you! Kudos as they say! No tinfoil hat or meds needed here. The thread is working fine I see, and I'll dismiss all of the negitive comments. Thanks for reading... caring, and sharing.
> 
> As it has been said in one classic movie... "YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH". This pertains to many as their memories of killing their first deer in Trebark Camo are SMASHED.


Isnt it "you cant handle the truth!" ? And i dont think their memories are smashed just because they are wearing trebark camo and now someone on here is claiming they invented it first. I doubt if that really makes their memory any less memorable.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Attention wh0re. :thumbs_do

This BS was posted here months ago and nobody cared. Yup, lots of folks reading this thread and thinking "get a life already" :lol:


LOL at "camo story of the year? Really? Seriously?? Seems the OP is not getting the reaction he hoped for. He was oping for an OMG and instead is getting "Who cares? move on already."


----------



## lungbuster123

hunter41606 said:


> Isnt it "you cant handle the truth!" ? And i dont think their memories are smashed just because they are wearing trebark camo and now someone on here is claiming they invented it first. I doubt if that really makes their memory any less memorable.


x2 I doubt anyone is looking at this going oh crap my first deer I was wearing Treebark and now I find out someone "stole" the idea...that just ruined it for me. My brother used to have a pair of pant's in Treebark camo and none of the hunting memories we shared would I EVER CARE about what camo someone was wearing or who made it.


----------



## 21outrage

cont... question #1, which was... 1.) How did you come up with the name Bowing Enterprises?

his reply: 
Hi Mark, happy to answer:

1. In 1970, the year after I graduated from college I was teaching in Alexandria, VA and on weekends was a waterfowl and deer hunting guide on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. The common question there was not "are you going hunting today", the locals just said "you gunnin' today". Because my first passion was bow hunting, on the days that I was guiding bow hunters, I started answering, "No, bowing today". So when I incorporated the company in 1979 the income initially only included my guide fees, and in 1980 the Trebark income, so I incorporated the company under Bowing Enterprises.

Sorry... But the company Bowing was NOT incorporated until 1980, NOT 1979, and I think someone should have done a fact check before answering this one. 

When I additionally asked him this... later on: 

How did one become so familiar with the turf there...that one could become a guide after a recent move?

He answered:

I was already a hunter, learning to be a guide was an educational experience, and for the most a good one.

now...YOU DECIDE... WHAT IS TRUE - AND WHAT IS NOT TRUE.


----------



## jkm97

I invented the question mark.


----------



## woodyw333

And here we go again... Yet another pointless thread on this guys dad and the govt.. blah blah blah


----------



## DUGuy

I can't stand facebook links.


----------



## 21outrage

hunter416060 - yes you are correct... I made an error there. and just so yo know... that comment about one's first deer kill... was a generalization you know.

here's a good link. grasp the first paragraph or so... the first time I read it... I knew it was Bull from the very minute I started it.

http://www.outfittertuff.com/history.htm


----------



## GunnerNYS

Brett K said:


> Yes! Over 1300 bowhunters are wondering if you took your meds today.



I literally just LOL... Thanks


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Have you called Nightline, 20/20, Heraldo Rivera? I'll bet they would be all over this very important story. :lol: Will you be bringing this topic back from the dead again in a few months of are you feeling silly enough right now?


----------



## sloz

Maybe I'm missing something, but why wasn't something done about this years and years ago? 

If this is all true, I understand you want your pops to get recognition, but what are you trying to accomplish by posting on here over and over? Do something about it and maybe post something after you "Re-write History".

--and now back to a thread where I can learn something new...


----------



## d3ue3ce

Id like to discuss the issues with you, because actually your dad is a liar. . I invented the idea, and sole it to Crumley. . You can start as many facebook pages as you wish, but you are still full of crap, and can have as many thread views as you wish.. . . Still, no one is that concerned with what you have to say on an internet forum. .


----------



## whack&stack

i still contend that the person who invented plaid is getting hosed. checkered plaid the "original" camo. see this was used way before your dads crap why cant this guy be the father of camo


----------



## 21outrage

1412 views now... with only a very small handfull of negitive comments portionately. Pretty much par for the course.

Gotta still love it... and now 701 views overnight on the other link. Love that too. 

To the ones that remain NEGITIVE... I 'll now say... the numbers MATTER... and the story remains... In the Veins of the Industry!

Good Day All.


----------



## Epinepherine

I sincerely doubt this has much to with "credit" at all, and everything to do with hopes of backing-up the Brinks truck in one's driveway. The American way; let another bust their @$$ developing, marketing, and essentially risking everything the family owns to be successful, then someone else comes along who wants a piece of the pie. 

:thumbs_do


----------



## CommonGround

Ok, I'm not trying to knock anything you've said or what your father has done...but I don't see how the amount of views has anything to do with anything? I could post naked pictures of a fugly looking woman and I'm sure it would get a ton of views. People are curious, it doesn't mean they like or dislike anything you have posted. I some what understand what your posting, but I'm curious what you motive is? I'm thankful for the person (s) who invented cloths, for the person who placed designs on clothing, for the guy or gal who invented camo, BUT my world doesn't in anyway revolve around these people. What can we as members of an archery forum do to help you do what ever it is you are trying to accomplish...and how would this help you?


----------



## hunter41606

CommonGround said:


> Ok, I'm not trying to knock anything you've said or what your father has done...but I don't see how the amount of views has anything to do with anything? I could post naked pictures of a fugly looking woman and I'm sure it would get a ton of views. People are curious, it doesn't mean they like or dislike anything you have posted. I some what understand what your posting, but I'm curious what you motive is? I'm thankful for the person (s) who invented cloths, for the person who placed designs on clothing, for the guy or gal who invented camo, BUT my world doesn't in anyway revolve around these people. What can we as members of an archery forum do to help you do what ever it is you are trying to accomplish...and how would this help you?


Yeah just because we all check back in to see the latest crap being spewed doesnt mean we agree. And over half of the posters here are negative towards this.. In fact there is only a few exceptions that arent... What threads are you looking at?


----------



## Ib4Hoyt

heres one view that dont count


----------



## gcampbell

I hope it woks out for you!!!!


----------



## runningdeer

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1510882

link to another thread


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

21outrage said:


> 1412 views now... with only a very small handfull of negitive comments portionately. Pretty much par for the course.
> 
> Gotta still love it...


This thread and that comment prove you are as delusional as we thought. I did a count of the replies (excluding the OP) 40 were calling him a tool for this thread and laughing a him, 3 were neutral or mocking this thread and 3 wished him luck.

BWAhahahahahahahah 


The more he comes back a talks about page views the more people can see the vinegar and water in this topic. A thousand page views of people mocking you or shaking their head wondering who cares and you tally this as if its accomplishing your goal?? So your goal is to be a laughing stock? Mission accomplished. :set1_rolf2:

Many of the page views are from people interesting in seeing you get your arse handed to you over and over. :wink:

P.S. the thread about the tri-colored deer now has 5000 views and people forgot about it as soon as they read it (just like this thread) so you have some catching up to do in the world of pointles crap.


----------



## Okie X

Rancid....why do you care so much? Really, how does it effect you in anyway?

If it so pointless why so many post in one thread? In fact, if it so pointless why is this the first thread you have commented in this morning? Thousand other threads on AT but you start your day in one you consider pointless?!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

It’s the car wreck or guy standing on the ledge effect. You cant look away. He created this same thread here back in June and got mocked and laughed at for 1 pages. Then he created anther in the history section. Now this thread here and the super majority that respond are laughing at him. Its just odd. If I were this guy I would not waste my time here as there can be no outcome of substance. If this were my dad and I created this same thread here I would expect to bme mocked for something so meaningless and so long ago.


----------



## Okie X

Well just the other day you was telling us how Pope and Young keep the history of bowhunting at their museum. Any section on camo down there? Would they be interested in a picture of what looks to be the first modern commercial camo specifically designed for bow hunting? Camo is pretty big deal in the modern hunting world ain't it? Hell, camo threads are started here everyday. Camo companies make energy drinks these days if you can believe that. I don't know if you wear Mossy Oak if you can drink Real Tree energy drink.....maybe better stick with Red Bull until Mossy Oak makes their own I guess. But my point is...would there be RT energy drinks and condoms (if these don't exist I'm sure o' Jerdon will see this and get them made now) or would it just be all plaid still?

I think the story is interesting. This guy, crazy or not....has what looks like the earliest pictures of a camo I think a lot of us thought was the shiznit back in the 1980's because it was CAMO and not a plaid shirt and farmers overalls.


----------



## jawmarq

sadly its easy to believe that someone stole your dads camo and claimed it as their own.same stuff happens every day. i for one loved using that pattern when i first started hunting.


----------



## hooiserarcher

21outrage said:


> 1412 views now... with only a very small handfull of negitive comments portionately. Pretty much par for the course.
> 
> Gotta still love it... and now 701 views overnight on the other link. Love that too.
> 
> To the ones that remain NEGITIVE... I 'll now say... the numbers MATTER... and the story remains... In the Veins of the Industry!
> 
> Good Day All.


 call the men in white coats!!!!!! one of the conspiracy goons have escaped. dude take your fishing boat to different waters. frankly you are just making all of us "outrage"d!


----------



## Dark Horse

You ever hear about the guy that invented the intermittent windshield wiper? I think they made a movie about it a few years ago, maybe redbox has it, might be a good watch.

The story is usually the same: some small fry invents something, big guys get wind of it, steal it, market it, profit from it and stiff the guy who actually came up with it.

My guess is that the point here is that the OP really loved his dad and his dad came up with a product and he feels like his dad got the shaft and wants to vindicate/give credit to his dad for something.

Thanks for the posts, props to your dad. I am not sure there is any recourse for you at this point other than setting the record straight, but as someone who has been stiffed a time a or two, I know there is some relief in at least letting people know the truth.


----------



## MN Doe Hunter

OP - I applaud your efforts in this matter. In the end I don't know if you'll get the peace of mind you are searching for, but I pray that you do.


----------



## pudd

I've got a picture in my head of a guy with a tin foil hat, wife beater, boxer shorts, and bathrobe on running around telling everyone that the gov. stole his mind and ideas...Give it up dude! Do you have a bunker stocked with 5 years provisions??? Somethings happening here. What it is aint exactly clear.


----------



## 21outrage

To all of the BS negative nonsence and slamming going on here, I say... whatever. Bring it on fellas... because YOU ARE NOT HURTING MY FEELINGS IN ANY WAY. The numbers are *extremely* small. I believe that the majority of the viewers on these threads have an overwhelming tendency to simply not comment at all, yet instead... follow the progession and the facts presented along the way, and probably being amazed at that. I'll ask any one of you NAYSAYERS to address ANY of the following 5 questions. Would love to hear your SMART ____ replys. I could add more, but for simplicity reasons, I'll keep it at 5.

1.) Why were there many lawyers, shown proven, and tied directly to representation within the Nixon Administration, later Corp. Reg. Agent, Inc., then Bowing Enterprises, Inc., tied to Crumley's Story, and why wasn't ANYTHING even vaigly related to this... mentioned along the way in any of the Trebark Stories?

2.) Why was the then... Mayor of Washington DC, Marion Barry's name... tied to the Corporate Documents of Bowing, a reported private company?

3.) Why have there been many stories, links, one video in particular on OutfitterTuff, etc., that are all related directly to this story, missing, or no longer available for public view on the internet?

4.) Why are there multiple versions of the Trebark story?

5.) Why haven't "they"... YET...stood up to do anything about this?


----------



## 21outrage

MN Doe Hunter. Thanks! and Kudo's to you as well, for having the courage to speak out, and say what you are thinking. I already have gotten much peace of mind from exposing these facts, as this was my MAIN objective, but only after no one else would do anything about it. Once discovered... this started as a simple mission to publish a few select photos, along with a smalll story, to give what I would consider... "credit where credit was due", and today, I'll stand firm on the principles involved, and the fact that... in what I have discovered along the way, is not my fault.

I flat out refuse ALL alligations by the NAYSAYERS that do not have the balls to address the actual facts, yet only stand back and criticize me from a distance. I myself... obviously have them. They attempt to make me out as crazy, but the only thing that's crazy here... it the story itself, and as it appears, someone else has in essence...possibly lived my life since my 20's. 

When I see the different locations around the country that are tied to many of the posters within these threads, along with some of the job titles, professions, etc... it again, gives me great peace of mind, that this message has been seen far and wide, and that this issue will most likley... never really go away.

The facts are the facts are the facts... and documents do not lie, but people do. I deal in facts only. 

So be it.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

1. nodbody cares

2. Its eons ago. Move on already

3. Who cares?

4. see #3

5. because nobody cares except you. If it wasnt your dad involved with this story you have concocted, you wouldnt care either since its ancient history.

Like the thread you created back in June where people told you they dont care, the super majority in this thread are telling you the same thing. You are the only one that gives a rats arse.

You want attention or fame or money, we get that but nothing of subsatnce will come out of spamming this site with your side of a story that nobody cares about.

Now a question for you. Why start a new thread about this when you have one already started back in June? Could it be because you got slammed in the last one you created (just like this one)?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

The real history of treebark camo.

http://outfittertuff.com/history.htm


----------



## 21outrage

Dark Horse, Jawmarg... thanks. Okie X - You too. Will just have to see if anyone can really do justice, and answer the tough questions here. Obviously Rancid CANNOT... and now, if I'm not mistaken... he might have been one of the posters in the thread previously removed... that indicated he knew Crumley personally. Okie X... I also love the way you call him out about his posts here. So be it.


----------



## hunter41606

I think most of the viewers don't respond because it's not worth the effort and they don't care. You clearly have your mind set that you think they do though. Honestly I bet 90 percent of the views come from people like me who check this every hour or so just to see if you posted another rant that I could giggle at


----------



## 21outrage

Part of a Baloney Ad from 1986.


----------



## Ala_Archer

Wow! Something you might have missed; look at the "industry bombshell" photo of the poster you made. Look between the deer's face and your father's armpit, the face of a damn wolf!!!


----------



## Baldona523

It has only been what 20+ years, I'd wait another 20 years and see what REALLY comes out!


----------



## 21outrage

Time itself... has nothing to do with the facts being presented within this project. It is this... a portion of a *removed*/magicly disappearing video, one in which was most likley produced in efforts to promote the new Outfitter Tuff endevors that is important. In it... the interviewer states in part...

"but what did that launch?, in terms of total camouflage, hunting garment industry...what did Trebark launch? Like today, 2006, what would you guesstimate, just a rough ballpark figure?

Crumley's initial part of his answer... *It's Billions...Billions of dollars, yes Billions. *


----------



## whack&stack

21outrage said:


> Time itself... has nothing to do with the facts being presented within this project. It is this... a portion of a *removed*/magicly disappearing video, one in which was most likley produced in efforts to promote the new Outfitter Tuff endevors that is important. In it... the interviewer states in part...
> 
> "but what did that launch?, in terms of total camouflage, hunting garment industry...what did Trebark launch? Like today, 2006, what would you guesstimate, just a rough ballpark figure?
> 
> Crumley's initial part of his answer... *It's Billions...Billions of dollars, yes Billions. *


and thats what you are interested in. hell i would be too. still say if you get it you should look up who invented plaid and send that sucker a check.


----------



## Matt Musto

I'll read the "Real story" when it is published in the news, after any law suits and verdicts.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

hunter41606 said:


> Honestly I bet 90 percent of the views come from people like me who check this every hour or so just to see if you posted another rant that I could giggle at



I know right? Its like a car wreck. Watching this poor guy melt down over something from 40 years ago has some entertainment value if it were not so sad.


----------



## Baldona523

The United States military wore camo in Vietnam and before that. To insinuate that Treebark was the beginning of camo in the hunting industry is no way true. People have been wearing camo for a long time. Look at Ghillie suits, they have been worn in Europe for hundreds of years to hunt. 

Again, dude this was 25 years ago, where have you been? This is my last post on view on this because it is a joke.


----------



## nockedup

ShannonM said:


> Cool story, bro.














21outrage said:


> Now I'm done here for now. I don't have time to address more than one thread at a time. Please feel free to ask questions, or to send me a personal message if you want to talk in confidence. *If you want to send Lawyers, writers, publishers, or anything like that... my way, please do. I won't forget where the referral came from. *Additionally... If you have any information that you may think might be valuable to me... again... please do not hesitiate to contact me immediately. Good Day! Mark T. Smith












You better not forget me when you makes tens of hundreds of dollars of this broseidon!


----------



## bsizzle

They are coming for you.......lol

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


----------



## 21outrage

LOL Back... Here's another great potential example of attempted damage control by the industry. First an entire thread is dumped from this site, then a thread dumped, with user banned on BOWSITE.COM, now this. Now maybe it's just my computer... but it sure seems to working otherwise just fine here. I set up my profile with the user name "Zero'd In" on HuntOnly.com the other day.






with a thread titiled Camo-Camo what's New Camo... and posted a tad bit of info there.


----------



## 21outrage

Here is what I get today!

Will someone search this site themselves...and let me know if the site is DOWN? LOL

No melt downs here! I'm guessing now that it won't be that long until they remove my recent post on their facebook page.

They can run, but they cannot hide.


----------



## curvaceous

multi color camoflage of different patterns has been used since ww1










A german helmet from WW1

Its not like it was his genius idea , many countries used multi colored blothches on their uniforms , but they werent exactly the same 
Many types of camo with leaf type motifs printed on , but they are not exactly the same 

The first guy to make a hamburger , did he whine about it when some other guy making them put cheese on his to make it a bit different ?

Can 2 or 3 blade broadhead manufacturers carry on because there are other types of 2 and 3 blade broadheads ?
maybe the first caveman to fashion one out of stone should have a whine about all these other "copies" of his original 2 blade design.

Who's to say that crumley didnt have the thought pop into his head of using a bark pattern before your old man ?

Since everybody has used various forms of leaves and bark for their camo , let it be known now that i am the original person who thought of , the new " TREE ROOT CAMO " coming to a store near you , hopefully before someone else has the marketing nouse and capitol to back them up to make a SIMILAR pattern.


----------



## mn5503

Probably don't want to pick a jury for the case from this pool!!! Lol


----------



## 21outrage

Many comments simply do not warrant a reply... and are simply off the mark. curvaceous?

This now goes for the one below this too. He obviously has not viewed all of the facts, and his rambling about generalities of camouflage - do not fit this story.


----------



## 21outrage

Ala Archer... LOL... yeah, maybe a wolf's face covered in sheeps clothing!


----------



## 21outrage

I should probably post this here too... a couple of days back, I set up a user name, and a thread on huntonly.com.


----------



## 21outrage

Now maybe it's my computer... Maybe it's not. It seems to be otherwise working just fine.

will someone let me know if this site is really down? LOL again.

can you say... damage control

now I really need to get back to work... although I'm having a good time here... presenting facts... I do have other obligations to attend to. I'll check back later on.

In the words of Johnny Buck... "Later"


----------



## ColoCompound

Marines were wearing camo in WW2. Germans before that. Your father invented nothing. Magic markers on clothing isn't nearly the same as a process to mass produce, market and sell clothing. It's the difference between crayons and Michelangelo. Your father had a thought but didn't have the gumption to follow through on it and missed the boat. It happens all the time. Nothing tragic or dishonest here. Your father didn't invent the idea of blending in, nor did he have any idea how to produce a textile product with that pattern in it. He didn't invent the clothing he colored on, didn't choose the fabric or the process in which to get the colors on it. He didn't develop the sizing charts, choose the thread and how it was stitched. He didn't develop a marketing plan, find distributors, put together a shipping company or develop a space plan for retailers. In the grand scheme of idea to sale-able product....your father did pretty much nothing. 

The thought that two hunters would have the same idea, one sitting on it doing nothing while the other developed it into a real product.....is not far fetched. Sorry your father missed the boat...but you swimming towards the empty horizon in hopes of catching up...is a lost cause.


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## curvaceous

21outrage
Registered User 
Many comments simply do not warrant a reply... and are simply off the mark. curvaceous?

Probably because i have a lot of curves , recurves that is . 21outrage?


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## 21outrage

Yes 21 outrage... hull No.70 1971 that would be a Boston Whaler by the way.


----------



## curvaceous

LOL wow , a boat , never had one of them before , lol , when i go back up to the property in the next week or so i'll take pics of my whaler project thats a whole lot bigger lol.


----------



## lungbuster123

"21outrage has not made any friends yet"


----------



## eaglecaps

The huntonly site works for me.


----------



## ride394

I think 21 needs to be whacked with the banhammer. 

21- If you want some sort of real outcome do it legally. You're not going to accomplish anything on here for 3 reasons.

1. Nobody cares
2. Your threads are all jibberish that no one can follow
3. You're annoying


----------



## Binney59

Ugh....... not this again.


This thing got moved to the history forum once before, I vote for another move! Your nonsensical document scans and non-linear story telling has proven too much for this simpleton.


----------



## BigDeer

Hunlee


----------



## Timmy Big Time

Well this has been a fun read, I normally can form some kind of comment after reading a post, this one has me just shaking my head. 21outrage I think you may have some closure issues, talk to somebody and sort thru it you will feel better. I am serious.


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

So basically your dad had the idea but never brought it to fruition. hmm... guess even if Crumley stole the idea we should thank him. I mean if your dad came up with the idea then it was never developed we would never have come as far as we have today. Spare me the heart attack story, your father just never got around to getting it done. Whether Crumley copied or not he put boots on the ground and got it done and that's why we have the industry we have today.

Your father had a great idea. I'm sure glad someone with balls got the industry off the ground and running.


----------



## Nameless Hunter

None of you would be reading this if it wasn't for Al Gore.


----------



## hunter41606

ride394 said:


> I think 21 needs to be whacked with the banhammer.
> 
> 21- If you want some sort of real outcome do it legally. You're not going to accomplish anything on here for 3 reasons.
> 
> 1. Nobody cares
> 2. Your threads are all jibberish that no one can follow
> 3. You're annoying


I second this. Its like trying to decipher what a 2 year old is saying when they get excited. Just isnt going to happen.


----------



## buckbuck419

21outrage. You aren't making yourself or your father look any better by this tread. Get over it man.


----------



## serdley300

Facebook is gay! How about telling us on At instead of screwing around.


----------



## 21outrage

Some people have a tendency to follow others leads. That seems obvious in this thread. The first job of a good defense lawyer is to discredit any witnesses, and at any cost. None of you Naysayers can answer the tough questions already posed, and most, are beating around the bush with the real issues here. Come on fellas... is there not enough intelect out there to both read, and put together your own senerio now based the facts? Your attempts to discredit me are considered junk from my end.






Proof is in the pudding they say.


----------



## bowteckpa

like all rich people they stole that to.


----------



## 21outrage




----------



## 21outrage




----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

What's more likely, a huge government conspiracy over hunting camouflage or that two men at different times sat in the woods and said, "huh, I bet if I looked like a tree I'd have a better chance at shootin a deer." (imagine that spoke like Brian Reagan...) 
You father never executed his idea in mass. Crumley did. 

Sorry, Bo, but you're never gonna get everyone to believe black helicopters are stealing camo patterns and giving them to high school teachers from Va.


----------



## 21outrage

Sorry but there are already MANY that believe. Can't count the times I've heard... "Your story is Amazing"


----------



## cornfedkiller

Here we go with all the documents..................again.. 



OK OK, we believe you....What would you like us to do? I just dont understand the point of telling all of us all this.. Am I the only one that doesnt get it??


----------



## 21outrage

View attachment 1172344


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Please post lots more really old pics of highlighted documents. Your really making your case well. Cant you see all the folks coming over to your side?

:lol:

I invented something I plan to patent (If the government does not steal it and give it somebody else) Is a device used to detect how little I care and right now the meter is pegged at 100%. I have been using it on the other posts here and whattaya know? 100% across the board. But please, by all means, thrill us with more “Evidence” and then tell us what good it does to post it here? Either get off your arse and take them to court or continue to do nothing of substance here and get mocked in the process.


----------



## cornfedkiller

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I invented something I plan to patent (If the government does not steal it and give it somebody else) Is a device used to detect how little I care and right now the meter is pegged at 100%. I have been using on the other posts here and whattaya know? 100% across the board. But please, by all means, thrill us with more “Evidence” and then tell us what good it does to post it here? Either get off your arse and take them to court or continue to do nothing of substance here and get mocked in the process.


Dude! I already invented that!


----------



## 21outrage




----------



## cornfedkiller

Will you answer my question 21outrage? What do you want us to do? What is it going to accomplish by giving us all this information?

I dont get what we are supposed to do with this information??


----------



## Epinepherine

I'm going to photocopy all my receipts from WalMart & Lowes, my mortgage documents, a couple of ads from some old PlayBoys and hereby prove ET IS HOUSED IN AREA 52!!1!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

cornfedkiller said:


> Dude! I already invented that!


Nugh-uh, I invented it first. You stole it from me. 30 years from now, I am going to go to an internet chat room and create a thread about you stealing it from me. Can you please send me a bunch of documents with yellow highlighter and scribbles so I can save them for my records. I plan to prove my case 3 decades from now and everybody will go

Ah Ha!! This proves everything.

And I will be loved and famous and acknowledged and validated and nobody will mock me as being lame and wasting everybody’s time with useless crap nobody cares about from the past. Vengeance will be mine.


----------



## SSLegacy

HOKIEHUNTER07 said:


> So basically your dad had the idea but never brought it to fruition. hmm... guess even if Crumley stole the idea we should thank him. I mean if your dad came up with the idea then it was never developed we would never have come as far as we have today. Spare me the heart attack story, your father just never got around to getting it done. Whether Crumley copied or not he put boots on the ground and got it done and that's why we have the industry we have today.
> 
> Your father had a great idea. *I'm sure glad someone with balls got the industry off the ground and running*.


:nono:
That was a bit much. :thumbs_do


----------



## hunter41606

21outrage said:


> Sorry but there are already MANY that believe. Can't count the times I've heard... "Your story is Amazing"


Can you not count it because "Zero" isnt a countable number?


----------



## hunter41606

But honestly I think this guy is just the king of trolls. I mean, if hes trolling, he wins.. Forever.


----------



## 21outrage

Cornfedkiller - You ask... what's the point here? It's simple. To expose the facts and the truth. This is only one means to do so, and you can be sure that there are many more. You ask... what is this going to acomplish? Well, da my friend... it's obvious that the story has spread like wildfire, and that's obviously part of the original point you asked about. Ever hear the comment throwing fuel on the fire? Now... you ask... what do you want "us" to do with the information? You can do absolutley nothing. You can also leave the thread if you don't like it. This goes for all others that don't have the courage to do anything but try to discredit me. 

I'll challenge *YOU* today with this. Go back a few posts, find the 5 questions that I placed there, and see if you can answer any of them.

Good Day


----------



## Hoytjay

Someone has a LOT of time on their hands...


----------



## cornfedkiller

21outrage said:


> Now... you ask... what do you want "us" to do with the information? You can do absolutley nothing. You can also leave the thread if you don't like it. This goes for all others that don't have the courage to do anything but try to discredit me.
> 
> I'll challenge *YOU* today with this. Go back a few posts, find the 5 questions that I placed there, and see if you can answer any of them.
> 
> Good Day


I dont think it has anything to do with courage - What are we supposed to do with this information? Start telling everyone we know? Not sure what that would solve.. I think a court would help you a ton more than telling a bunch of people who a) dont really know what to do with this information that you are giving us, and b) dont really care..

And Rancid already answered the 5 questions with the same answers I believe the vast majority of us would have...

And the reason you have so many views on this thread isnt because its so interesting and intriguing to us (I know, I know..hard to believe we all dont want to sit around and read through 25 pages of documents with a bunch of stuff highlighted, that we have to try to piece together what we are even looking at and what it means), but simply because you titled the thread "CAMO STORY of the YEAR"...like whoa! I better check out what this is about!!

You shouldve titled the thread "Camo story of 1985"


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

> ” it's obvious that the story has spread like wildfire, and that's obviously part of the original point”



Nuh-uh, you tried this back in June and it went 11 pages of people laughing at you. This one will be the same way. 3 months from now, you will create another thread about this and a whole new bunch of people will say: “Dude, get a life, nobody cares”

In order for a civic wild fire to spread, people have to give a damn and thus far you are the only one who cares. After all these decades and several attempts by you to tell people how important this is and how much they should care, people are just rolling their eyes and saying “Whatever”. You do a disservice to yourself and your cause. Better played would be you coming back here months or years from now and rubbing your million in our face after your court victory but since you know that will never happen you troll here.


----------



## 21outrage

Cronfedkiller - Try 1975.... Chicken!


----------



## cornfedkiller

21outrage said:


> Cronfedkiller - Try 1975.... Chicken!


Sorry..25 years ago, 35 years ago, whats the difference, you got my point..

And Im chicken? Scared of what exactly? And dont say "the truth" because I already said I believe you - but now what do I do?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

So if we all lie to you and say we believe your version of the story and that we really care will you go away and seek professional help?


----------



## 21outrage

Cornfedkiller - Good. Glad you believe... if I can even believe that. That's the entire point. I don't know what is so hard about understanding the court of public opinion. Now, to answer again... You don't have to do anything if you don't want to. Period. End of Story.

If the small volume of Naysayers out there think that thier negitive comments will ever phase me, they are wrong, and this is because I know that I am correct in my findings. Period. Even if the majority of the posters here on this thread are negitive, well... that's OK with me. Naysayers will always be out there as part of the landscape of this country... but people that stand up for themselves, and also for what it right, and wrong... well, that's another story.


----------



## bigracklover

21, I wouldn't want you acting as my attorney. You are not connecting the dots for your audience. Refer to your posts 122, 124, 125, 132. What are those docs supposed to mean or prove? I've tried to follow your story and be sympathetic but you simply don't make any sense. I fear you truly have psychological issues, seriously. Perhaps you should seek some professional help and I'm not being hateful when I say that either.


----------



## Timmy Big Time

Here is my take from the posts, Marrian Barry and Richard Nixon plotted to steal 21's dads ideas for a new cammo, and killed him in the process.


----------



## hunt365

Have you even talked to a lawyer, or just posting on internet forums. Posting on forums will get you nowhere, You will never see a outcome if thats all you are doing.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

21outrage said:


> If the small volume of Naysayers out there think that thier negitive comments will ever phase me, they are wrong,.


OK, that’s where our view that you are delusional comes from. Read the posts, its like 99% either laughing at you or mocking you are telling you they don’t care or believe you. What you consider a small volume of naysayers is actually the super majority telling you that you have flipped your lid.



21outrage said:


> and this is because I know that I am correct in my findings. Period.



And your the only one that cares.



21outrage said:


> Even if the majority of the posters here on this thread are negitive, well... that's OK with me.


And they are. Just go back and read them.



21outrage said:


> Naysayers will always be out there as part of the landscape of this country... but people that stand up for themselves, and also for what it right, and wrong... well, that's another story.


That’s the real point then isn’t it? Lamenting your cause here has the same effect as shouting it into an empty bucket. Its pointless unless ist just done to make you feel better as if you are actually doing something about it (which you are not) If this is simply salve for your cerebral wounds and you find it cathartic, that’s find but its clear you really hope to get people to care and to rally to your cause and Its painfully obvious (now multiple threads) that will not happen. Then you really tip the scales against you and your cause with the replies you post. People go from:

“Huh, that might be interesting if its true”

To

“Gawd, what a tool”


----------



## ONEiiSHOTiiDROP

Rancid Crabtree said:


> OK, that’s where our view that you are delusional comes from. Read the posts, its like 99% either laughing at you or mocking you are telling you they don’t care or believe you. What you consider a small volume of naysayers is actually the super majority telling you that you have flipped your lid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And your the only one that cares.
> 
> 
> 
> And they are. Just go back and read them.
> 
> 
> 
> That’s the real point then isn’t it? Lamenting your cause here has the same effect as shouting it into an empty bucket. Its pointless unless ist just done to make you feel better as if you are actually doing something about it (which you are not) If this is simply salve for your cerebral wounds and you find it cathartic, that’s find but its clear you really hope to get people to care and to rally to your cause and Its painfully obvious (now multiple threads) that will not happen. Then you really tip the scales against you and your cause with the replies you post. People go from:
> 
> “Huh, that might be interesting if its true”
> 
> To
> 
> “Gawd, what a tool”


wow just reading this made me glad I wasn't reading along the whole time. Thanks for the heads up


----------



## irishhacker

who cares ,, this is not the place for your complaint. 
Find a forum on patent infringement or something of the like. (somewhere else)


----------



## cornfedkiller

irishhacker said:


> who cares ,, this is not the place for your complaint.
> Find a forum on patent infringement or something of the like. (somewhere else)


Exactly! That is my whole point! You make us all believers, and then what? Nothing changes! Crumley still gets all the money he got, and your dad is still left with nothing other than having a bunch of people that "know" he is the one that invented it..

Take it to a court and prove your point there! I just cant figure out why you are spending so much time trying to convince us all when its not going to lead to anything..


----------



## TauntoHawk

sounds like a lesson learned,

better have a good business plan otherwise your invention is useless


----------



## bsizzle

21crybaby they are slowly shutting down your accounts on "teh interwebz". it's not much longer......they are coming for you.


----------



## rutjunky

I still dont think we should be mean to this guy by personal attacks. 21outrage, go get some legal help and quit posting it here. We cant help you. You need to help yourself. I would b pissed if an idea was stolen too but it dosent mean anything until you get it done through the courts. Got it?


----------



## Matt Musto

An AT poll would put an end to this...maybe.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Matt Musto said:


> An AT poll would put an end to this...maybe.


Why didn’t I think of that? AT has international legal authority sort of like the Hague. We could hear the case and make a ruling and if this worldly panel deems crimes against humanity have occurred, there could be vote of “off with his head” for the party we deem at fault. The G8 summit was renamed the G9 when AT was added back in 19 and 99 with a split vote with Germany casting the deciding vote. Didn’t AT try and convict “The Source” for being a complete D bag before sending him into exile?

That settles it. According to section 12.3.5 (sub 3) It takes only 3 ranking members of AT to convene an exploratory panel as to whether this matter comes before the total assembly. We could put this important matter to rest once and for all. Question is, does AT have the nads to assemble the brethren court after what happened last time?


----------



## hawgdawg

MOC said:


> You just lost the little credibility you may have had. LMAO. You actually believe the gov't scrambled jets because of you.


C 130 is the 4 propeller cargo plane or maybe a spooky version of the gatlin gun ship if I remember correctly.


----------



## NY911

. . . . . . . . :tongue:


----------



## radtuck

Why is it that, when someone on AT posts a thread about getting screwed in the classifieds, a digital lynch mob is formed; whereas, when this guy posts a story about his father getting screwed by corporate America, he is told to go cry in his cereal. The mob is less informed in classified ad cases, but jumps on the band wagon without hesitation. He may just want support from others...maybe you all think he is in the wrong arena, but the same scenario is presented in both his claim and for classified ad scams. Sheesh...give the guy a break.


----------



## catfishmafia76

21outrage I for one believe you and support you 100%, NEVER give up on your fight to bring out the truth. Keep shouting it till someone with some pull listens! I say keep posting threads untill you get what your after, maybe evn start a couple/few more threads about the same subject just to reach people who may not have noticed the first one, or two. Stick to your guns no matter what!


----------



## SwampDog32

SMH! Why did I waste 8mins and 27seconds reading this thread? Please aware me?


----------



## NY911

:wink:


----------



## Sandilands

Cool. Congrats to your family. We are talking about the mid 70's and 80's camo for what reason?


----------



## 21outrage

No one has *properly* answered the 5 questions yet. Ill challenge any of the negitive naysayers to do so. I also have a question? Is it really just the negitive naysayers that are driving the views on this thread up over 1500 today alone? If it is... that seems to be a bit counter productive, don't you think?

The more activity, the more views, the more popular the thread, the more chances others will see the real facts. I have faith that there will remain enough viewers that can see though the crap - like the crap that's being spewed by Crumley's friend Rancid - and others.

Good Day


----------



## 21outrage

catfishmafia - Thanks! You gotta believe that I will! and thanks rutjunky as well.


----------



## 21outrage

a great opportunity with the above post - to compare the quality of the day. Trebark was way inferior - compared to my dad's designs... and the industry probably suffered a set back at that time.


----------



## whack&stack

you never answered my question either 21. why should anyone answer yours if you wont answer other peoples. whats good for one is good for another.


----------



## whack&stack

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1172512
> a great opportunity with the above post - to compare the quality of the day. Trebark was way inferior - compared to my dad's designs... and the industry probably suffered a set back at that time.


says you. i like trebark better than that. pattern is way too tight with not enough color variation to break up your outline. yes it looks like a blob.


----------



## cornfedkiller

radtuck said:


> Why is it that, when someone on AT posts a thread about getting screwed in the classifieds, a digital lynch mob is formed; whereas, when this guy posts a story about his father getting screwed by corporate America, he is told to go cry in his cereal. The mob is less informed in classified ad cases, but jumps on the band wagon without hesitation. He may just want support from others...maybe you all think he is in the wrong arena, but the same scenario is presented in both his claim and for classified ad scams. Sheesh...give the guy a break.


Because he is giving us all this information for basically no reason other than I can now say "Huh, I guess his dad did invent the camo..". I still havent figured out exactly what its going to accomplish for him and his dad by telling this to all of us.. 

What are we supposed to do with this information???


----------



## Christopher67

cornfedkiller said:


> What are we supposed to do with this information???



*Oddly thats why im wondering as well.*


----------



## catfishmafia76

cornfedkiller said:


> Because he is giving us all this information for basically no reason other than I can now say "Huh, I guess his dad did invent the camo..". I still havent figured out exactly what its going to accomplish for him and his dad by telling this to all of us..
> 
> What are we supposed to do with this information???


We are all supposed to send nasty e-mails to ol Bob untill he signs over his bank account to 21outrage. It's all their in his posts if you read them backwards and delete every 13th letter. Come on man! Once he gets this money it will go towards opening the I hate Bob, roadside fried chicken/real trebark inventor learning center for kids that can't read so good.Geez did you pay attention to this thread at all????


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Your 5 questions were answered with the exact response they deserve here.


----------



## rutjunky

21outrage said:


> catfishmafia - Thanks! You gotta believe that I will! and thanks rutjunky as well.


u got it bud. Keep us informed


----------



## radtuck

cornfedkiller said:


> Because he is giving us all this information for basically no reason other than I can now say "Huh, I guess his dad did invent the camo..". I still havent figured out exactly what its going to accomplish for him and his dad by telling this to all of us..
> 
> What are we supposed to do with this information???


The same kind of stories are posted in the news everyday....when they report that a small village in B.F. Middleast was destroyed by someone or another, do you assume they are expecting something from you? He is merely reporting a story that relates to the hunting industry. Read it or don't...makes no difference to me. I would be upset if someone stole my idea, too. The guy is defending his father's apparent legacy...an epitaph, so to speak.


----------



## bsizzle

cornfedkiller said:


> What are we supposed to do with this information???


build a statue of his dad in the woods. then every year we'll all travel there to bow down on our knees and worship the "holy inventor of camo and all things he's got screwed over on"
































oh, and "in" before he claims matt mchpherson stole the single cam technology from his dad too.


----------



## Nytro69

21outrage said:


> if you don't like what you are seeing here... then simply do not come back


Consider it done.


----------



## wisbooner3932

Who wants to bite the bullet and get banned for starting a poll stating, "who care's who invented trebark camo?" Seriously 21, I think you need professional help..and I'm not talking legal help either.


----------



## AlphaSix

I hope you get millions from the sneaky, thieving *******s. If you do, you should buy all the supporters a pack of broadheads or something. :darkbeer:

(pssssssst.... I've got him distracted. Somebody call Fox Moulder! Quick!)


----------



## hooiserarcher

hooiserarcher said:


> call the men in white coats!!!!!! one of the conspiracy goons have escaped. dude take your fishing boat to different waters. frankly you are just making all of us "outrage"d!


 figured if you can post the same crap over and over, I will too!


----------



## 50bowhunter

On the next episode of Jerry Springer......


----------



## woodyw333

Kill This Thread!!! Pointless!!! Who really cares!!!


----------



## spencer12

I'm so confused.


----------



## 21outrage

Hey Naysayers! Go ahead an add this additional question to the list of 5, that none of you have the balls to answer.

Why does the John E. Phillips story titiled "Where did Trebark Come From", and the other misc. stories, including the Crumley video interview that was convienently removed from the Outfitter Tuff Website, ALL say... that "he" or "I"... placed his/I first 1/8 page ad in the *JULY* edition of Bowhunter Magazine? Why not tell the truth, in that it was really the JUNE/JULY ISSUE? Why NAYSAYERS, WHY?

Come on Now... Step to the plate, and let's hear your answer. Bet you can't, and won't... and even it you do, your response will be nothing more than...more of the same BS.


----------



## 21outrage




----------



## 21outrage

Don't even attempt to answer... I already know that one.


----------



## 21outrage

If the USPTO won't explain it, then why would I expect any of you Naysayers to do so?


----------



## Backstrapz

21outrage said:


> Hey Naysayers! Go ahead an add this additional question to the list of 5, that none of you have the balls to answer.
> 
> Why does the John E. Phillips story titiled "Where did Trebark Come From", and the other misc. stories, including the Crumley video interview that was convienently removed from the Outfitter Tuff Website, ALL say... that "he" or "I"... placed his/I first 1/8 page ad in the *JULY* edition of Bowhunter Magazine? Why not tell the truth, in that it was really the JUNE/JULY ISSUE? Why NAYSAYERS, WHY?
> 
> Come on Now... Step to the plate, and let's hear your answer. Bet you can't, and won't... and even it you do, your response will be nothing more than...more of the same BS.
> 
> View attachment 1172839


Newsflash. No one careS and this thread is funny. Don't be mad your not Rich off your fathers "invention". 
Treebark is lame.


----------



## rutjunky

U cant call out the people your seeking help from with a bad attitude like that. Ignore the trash and focus on your problem. 



21outrage said:


> Hey Naysayers! Go ahead an add this additional question to the list of 5, that none of you have the balls to answer.
> 
> Why does the John E. Phillips story titiled "Where did Trebark Come From", and the other misc. stories, including the Crumley video interview that was convienently removed from the Outfitter Tuff Website, ALL say... that "he" or "I"... placed his/I first 1/8 page ad in the *JULY* edition of Bowhunter Magazine? Why not tell the truth, in that it was really the JUNE/JULY ISSUE? Why NAYSAYERS, WHY?
> 
> Come on Now... Step to the plate, and let's hear your answer. Bet you can't, and won't... and even it you do, your response will be nothing more than...more of the same BS.
> 
> View attachment 1172839


----------



## 21outrage

2,148 views on this thread - overnight... and 4,653 since friday afternoon. hmmm. I'll ask again... is it the only the Naysayers here... driving the substantial numbers? 

I've obviously watched the views, and the posts, in this thread, as well as both... my other thread titiled "The true father of Tree Bark Camouflage, and the previously removed thread, started by Jumpman, titled "Jim Crumley's Trebark". Now whether you naysayers like it or not, besides this thread, there have been just as many... both shocked, and positive comments coming along, as there have been negitive ones. I previously mentioned the job of a defense lawyer, trying to discredit the witness, well... seems today there may be here within, a now concentrated effort to do just that. I'll simply look at this as part of the overall damage control effort, and I'll now view ALL NAYSAYERS as on the DEFENSE, while I remain on the OFFENSE.

I wasn't born yesterday, and with this BIG GAME... anything and everything has become a posssibility.


----------



## 21outrage

Rutjunky... thanks again... but as I stated before... I've tried to remain on the up and up througout, only addressing the facts, but
there comes a point, whereby... if I allow this to continue, I won't be doing my overall job effectively. I appreciate you standing where you stand, and the comments now, and previously made. I agree with you, IGNORE the TRASH, and focus on the EFFORT.

Will do my best... from here on out. Well said.


----------



## Backstrapz

Cool story bro.


----------



## bsizzle

you remind me of this guy i work with....he used to claim the bosses were watching him. "they" would always mess with the traffic lights on his way to and from work, the cameras were focused on him all the time, "whats going on in this place? will it ever get better?", "they're playing games with me man.", and so on. if you have legitimate proof that this "idea" was stolen from your dad you need to have a meeting with a lawyer. they will have the best advice for you, not the folks on AT!


by the way, do you bowhunt?


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

21outrage said:


> Hey Naysayers! Go ahead an add this additional question to the list of 5, that none of you have the balls to answer.
> 
> Why does the John E. Phillips story titiled "Where did Trebark Come From", and the other misc. stories, including the Crumley video interview that was convienently removed from the Outfitter Tuff Website, ALL say... that "he" or "I"... placed his/I first 1/8 page ad in the *JULY* edition of Bowhunter Magazine? Why not tell the truth, in that it was really the JUNE/JULY ISSUE? Why NAYSAYERS, WHY?
> 
> Come on Now... Step to the plate, and let's hear your answer. Bet you can't, and won't... and even it you do, your response will be nothing more than...more of the same BS.
> 
> View attachment 1172839


I don't understand what you're going for here... He said the July edition. It's a June/July edition... what's the problem? It's still a July edition. It's not like he's saying he posted it on 1/8 page of papyrus in ancient Sumeria. So he left out that it was a combined issue I don't understand the problem...


----------



## cornfedkiller

HOKIEHUNTER07 said:


> I don't understand what you're going for here... He said the July edition. It's a June/July edition... what's the problem? It's still a July edition. It's not like he's saying he posted it on 1/8 page of papyrus in ancient Sumeria. So he left out that it was a combined issue I don't understand the problem...


My thoughts exactly -

And Im not seeing all these "naysayers" he is referring to..He keeps acting like everyone is doubting him, like we dont believe him, when the truth of it is not that nobody believes him, but nobody really cares, or has any idea what we are supposed to now do with this "BOMBSHELL" information we just learned..


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

21outrage said:


> Don't even attempt to answer... I already know that one.
> View attachment 1172846


So he registered the trademark in '83 and then re-registered it under a different attorney 4 years later and changed the date of first use 6 months. What's earth shattering about that? I and everyone else fail to see what dots you're trying to connect. Lay it out for me. So there's a little inconsistency. I'd be willing to bet in all the chaos of trying to get a company started / quitting your job to pursue your passion it would be easy to confuse some dates. He probably just cited the magazine date for the '87 patent because that was the date that stuck in his mind. None of this really proves anything and all is easily explained away. What's the problem???


----------



## alwayslookin

Bottom line.....Mr Crumley is considered the "father" of modern camoflage because it was he who was the impetus behind the first COMMERCIALLY SUCCESSFUL introduction of it.
God invented the tree bark pattern........Jim Crumley SOLD it.
Your father was obviously on the same track......circumstances prevented his fame, not his ingenuity. You have in NO WAY proved that Mr Crumley did not have the same ideas as your father, or that Mr Crumleys eventual pattern is exactly the same as your fathers pattern (it actually looks quite different).
I am not sure of what exactly your intended outcome is, I fully disagree with anyone diminishing the accomplishments of another (on either side of this one mind you) and it is impossible to rewrite history after the fact.
Your fathers greatest legacy is the love of his son, and the instillment of tenacity in that same son. In the end , that is what really matters.......and what people will remember for generations.......heck , a lot of the folks on here have never HEARD of or seen Trebark.
Answer one question.....even if Mr Crumley came out and said it was not his pattern.........what would it prove, and would you be 100% satisfied with that ??????? I am guessing not. Bitterness , unresolved is a sin.
Mind you.....my great Grandfather invented many things including the first analog scoreboard for Basketball, and a crude electronic one.........never got a patent or a dime........but he never pursued it as feverishly as those who did. He was a Clockmaker from Little Falls New York......and I never met him, but I am still plenty proud of my forefathers.
What will be your satisfaction in this ??????


----------



## bigracklover

Dude, listen and listen closely. You are completely missing the point, very few on here are 'naysayers'. The majority think there could be some truth to your story but you just keep rambling and rambling with no clear course so you've essentially pushed your potential supporters away. You remind me of a Nascar driver who's so far behind he thinks he's in first place.


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

Like I said before, it's not unreasonable that two people come up with the same idea. Tesla "invented" the induction motor years after another gentleman did. The first inventor did not have the drive to take it to market or do all the legal leg work. Tesla independently came up with the same idea but had the drive to push it through. Now we have the induction motor as an everyday piece of our lives.

It's not unreasonable that two men albeit at different times decided that looking like a tree was good for hunting. Your father had set backs that prevented him from creating the industry. He might have come up with the pattern but he did not start producing it. I can't remember whether you said he received a patent or not, but it's pretty easy to get around many patents out there. If a similar idea with a bit different execution comes out they'll often patent both ideas without a problem. Also it's up to the patent holder to enforce their patent and not the government. That's how patents work.

Basically Crumley came up with the same idea and started producing it before your father ever did. Crumley ramped up production and if he did get any government aid it was likely b/c he had a tangible product that multiple parties had interest in. Once again it's not up to the government to enforce a patent, that's all on the patent holder. If your father never went after Crumley then Crumley did nothing wrong in the eyes of the government. Also I believe there is a lifespan / statute of limitations on patents which means it's likely too late for you to do anything.

If two ideas are developed in parallel, one person starts producing while the other does not, and no one ever tries to enforce a patent, nothing will happen. Whether your whole story is true or not there are a couple things that are fact:
1.) Both men had the same idea
2.) One started producing while the other did not
3.) Until now, no one tried to enforce a trademark or patent

I'm sorry you have a sad story of missed opportunity, but that's no one's fault other than your own. If you're just looking for recognition that your father came up with the idea first then here you go. I will acknowledge that it appears your father came out with a tree bark looking camo pattern a long time before Crumley started producing his pattern. That said your father cannot and will not ever be considered the "father of the camo industry" because he simply never got his idea off the ground. He never mass produced and whether or not Crumley directly copied your fathers pattern (which I very highly doubt he did) his actions got the wheels turning on the entire camo industry. 

One more time, what is the end result here? What are you looking for? Closure? Do you want Crumley tarred and feathered? Are you out of work and looking for a free ride? Do you just want your own TV show? Do you just want acknowledgement? 

I and everyone else here are sitting on the banks watching a train derail not understanding what we're seeing... That's why you get views. I come here to see what other people are saying and to laugh not to spread your story. Your views are probably the same people over and over. 

I homebrew cameras. I came up with this great idea to incorporate a wireless router so that you could be within a 100 yards of your cameras and download all your pictures. I was looking into hacking a wireless router and coming up with a way to do this. Guess what, I opened up the bass pro catalog and someone else is commercially producing the same idea. I have proof that I thought of that a while back but guess what, I never did anything with it. Such is life. The first person to get recognized is usually the winner. If you want recognition then come up with a new revolutionary camo and you'll get your recognition. 

I'm sorry but this ship has sailed and to the majority of us you're just harming your father's image. If you think ranting on websites and making people question your sanity honors your father's legacy then by all means carry on.


----------



## 21outrage

bsizzle - There are many attorneys out there, that have already looked at this... coast to coast. Some contacted... where their websites promote the fact that they have the resourses to handle the big ones... yet they turn a blind eye, and not based on the merits, and this... additionally put in writing to me as such. As it appears, it's most likley their own self preservation is involved with these dessions. Obviously way too big for many small firms, even it they fully believe the facts. And believe me when I tell you this... there are lawyers out there that believe in what has been presented. The word "pawn" was used by one, and within his explanation to me... wherby telling me that he firmly believes me, and the content provided. I'm not done seeking representation though, and there are some, that have not completely ruled this out yet. Don't forget... there are many other options out there for me to pursue. Pro se is one of them, and there are other forms of due justice. The court of public opinion remains one of them. Nobody knows the case like I do... inside and out, and I am both competent, and capable, of carrying these processes out. There is a 100% definite matter of "Legal Malpractice" involved, but the case expands very rapidly beyond that. It involves what has been described to me as a "civil conspiracy" in totality. It involves the "Sherman Anti-Trust Act", along with many other related items. Yes there are direct matters with statues, but based on the specifics of the case, and the specifics within the "discovery", I'm confident that these issues may be overcome. These forums were *only* one way to start the process of exposure, and with that... possibly representation? 

I've already anwered your last question stated above in other areas, and the answer is yes, and by the way, your analysis of me above is incorrect. I've already gone on record within, that I don't run around as a conspiracy theorist in my daily life. This, and the threads themselves, (with one limited exception - a re-zoing media battle of sorts), are both completely new, and unique aspect of my life that I have now have been forced to contend with. Now... from here on out, as mentioned above, I'll do my best to ignore the junk, and be nice, *but I'll also ask the same from all others*. I did not start this to make anybody mad. That has not been my intent. 

Look... I stated in the very first post here... don't be mad at me for presenting facts recently discovered. It is now, whether you like it or not, part of archery history. It just so happens that this part has yet (until now) been recogonized, and told.

Now... a good day to *ALL*.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

cornfedkiller said:


> My thoughts exactly -
> 
> And Im not seeing all these "naysayers" he is referring to..He keeps acting like everyone is doubting him, like we dont believe him, when the truth of it is not that nobody believes him, but nobody really cares, or has any idea what we are supposed to now do with this "BOMBSHELL" information we just learned..


Exactly! Even if his version of this tale is true. Who the heck cares? That’s what people are trying to get across to him. Nobody cares about his tale from 30 years ago.


----------



## ride394

HOKIEHUNTER07 said:


> Like I said before, it's not unreasonable that two people come up with the same idea. Tesla "invented" the induction motor years after another gentleman did. The first inventor did not have the drive to take it to market or do all the legal leg work. Tesla independently came up with the same idea but had the drive to push it through. Now we have the induction motor as an everyday piece of our lives.
> 
> It's not unreasonable that two men albeit at different times decided that looking like a tree was good for hunting. Your father had set backs that prevented him from creating the industry. He might have come up with the pattern but he did not start producing it. I can't remember whether you said he received a patent or not, but it's pretty easy to get around many patents out there. If a similar idea with a bit different execution comes out they'll often patent both ideas without a problem. Also it's up to the patent holder to enforce their patent and not the government. That's how patents work.
> 
> Basically Crumley came up with the same idea and started producing it before your father ever did. Crumley ramped up production and if he did get any government aid it was likely b/c he had a tangible product that multiple parties had interest in. Once again it's not up to the government to enforce a patent, that's all on the patent holder. If your father never went after Crumley then Crumley did nothing wrong in the eyes of the government. Also I believe there is a lifespan / statute of limitations on patents which means it's likely too late for you to do anything.
> 
> If two ideas are developed in parallel, one person starts producing while the other does not, and no one ever tries to enforce a patent, nothing will happen. Whether your whole story is true or not there are a couple things that are fact:
> 1.) Both men had the same idea
> 2.) One started producing while the other did not
> 3.) Until now, no one tried to enforce a trademark or patent
> 
> I'm sorry you have a sad story of missed opportunity, but that's no one's fault other than your own. If you're just looking for recognition that your father came up with the idea first then here you go. I will acknowledge that it appears your father came out with a tree bark looking camo pattern a long time before Crumley started producing his pattern. That said your father cannot and will not ever be considered the "father of the camo industry" because he simply never got his idea off the ground. He never mass produced and whether or not Crumley directly copied your fathers pattern (which I very highly doubt he did) his actions got the wheels turning on the entire camo industry.
> 
> One more time, what is the end result here? What are you looking for? Closure? Do you want Crumley tarred and feathered? Are you out of work and looking for a free ride? Do you just want your own TV show? Do you just want acknowledgement?
> 
> I and everyone else here are sitting on the banks watching a train derail not understanding what we're seeing... That's why you get views. I come here to see what other people are saying and to laugh not to spread your story. Your views are probably the same people over and over.
> 
> I homebrew cameras. I came up with this great idea to incorporate a wireless router so that you could be within a 100 yards of your cameras and download all your pictures. I was looking into hacking a wireless router and coming up with a way to do this. Guess what, I opened up the bass pro catalog and someone else is commercially producing the same idea. I have proof that I thought of that a while back but guess what, I never did anything with it. Such is life. The first person to get recognized is usually the winner. If you want recognition then come up with a new revolutionary camo and you'll get your recognition.
> 
> I'm sorry but this ship has sailed and to the majority of us you're just harming your father's image. If you think ranting on websites and making people question your sanity honors your father's legacy then by all means carry on.


and.... /THREAD


----------



## alwayslookin

21outrage said:


> bsizzle - There are many attorneys out there, that have already looked at this... coast to coast. Some contacted... where their websites promote the fact that they have the resourses to handle the big ones... yet they turn a blind eye, and not based on the merits, and this... additionally put in writing to me as such. As it appears, it's most likley their own self preservation is involved with these dessions. Obviously way too big for many small firms, even it they fully believe the facts. And believe me when I tell you this... there are lawyers out there that believe in what has been presented. The word "pawn" was used by one, and within his explanation to me... wherby telling me that he firmly believes me, and the content provided. I'm not done seeking representation though, and there are some, that have not completely ruled this out yet. Don't forget... there are many other options out there for me to pursue. Pro se is one of them, and there are other forms of due justice. The court of public opinion remains one of them. Nobody knows the case like I do... inside and out, and I am both competent, and capable, of carrying these processes out. There is a 100% definite matter of "Legal Malpractice" involved, but the case expands very rapidly beyond that. It involves what has been described to me as a "civil conspiracy" in totality. It involves the "Sherman Anti-Trust Act", along with many other related items. Yes there are direct matters with statues, but based on the specifics of the case, and the specifics within the "discovery", I'm confident that these issues may be overcome. These forums were *only* one way to start the process of exposure, and with that... possibly representation?
> 
> I've already anwered your last question stated above in other areas, and the answer is yes, and by the way, your analysis of me above is incorrect. I've already gone on record within, that I don't run around as a conspiracy theorist in my daily life. This, and the threads themselves, (with one limited exception - a re-zoing media battle of sorts), are both completely new, and unique aspect of my life that I have now have been forced to contend with. Now... from here on out, as mentioned above, I'll do my best to ignore the junk, and be nice, *but I'll also ask the same from all others*. I did not start this to make anybody mad. That has not been my intent.
> 
> Look... I stated in the very first post here... don't be mad at me for presenting facts recently discovered. It is now, whether you like it or not, part of archery history. It just so happens that this part has yet (until now) been recogonized, and told.
> 
> Now... a good day to *ALL*.


Please respond to my question......what will be your satisfaction in all of this ????????


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

Look we're just trying to tell you that this doesn't look good for you or your father's legacy. If the base you're trying to get to acknowledge is us we've told you again and again that this doesn't look good and your motives look sketchy at best. It appears and will appear if you find someone to take your money that you're chasing the wind and just looking for a get rich quick handout. 

Of course lawyers are going to tell you have a case. The reason they turn you down is because they realize that while your father may have in fact come up with the idea first, there is VERY LITTLE CHANCE that anything monetary will come from this. There will be some lawyer somewhere that is more than happy to take your money. You'll probably spend thousands and at most you might get a small article in a hunting magazine or an acknowledgement in a local newspaper. Lawyers are simply not going to take the case just to get you recognition. As I said if you find one that will represent you you'll probably end up losing thousands of dollars with little to no result.

A better thread would have been, "Hey guys look. My father had the same idea as Crumley and actually made some camo a decade before Trebark was mass produced." You would have gotten a lot of neat comments and people would have told you that your father was an innovative man and it's a shame he didn't beat Crumley to the punch. That's honestly the best course these threads could have gone for you. If you end up spending your life chasing this rabbit, then good luck to you. I fail to see how your hand is forced on this issue unless you're struggling to make ends meet and you think this is your way out of debt / financial troubles. Unfortunately unless you plan on spending really really big $$$ I'm afraid you're just going to end up more frustrated and desperate than you already are.


----------



## TXD

i am really tired of seeing this thread every time i come here. i know, dont click on it, but its like a train wreck, gotta see how bad it is. 

WE can NOT fix it for you! showing the internet your documents is NOT going to fix this for you. go to lawyers, go to court. THAT is your only resolution. rambling away on the internet is wasting your time and making you look like a nutjob. show the internet a resolution, NOT a bunch of documents and pics that we can do NOTHING about.


----------



## APAsuphan

hunter41606 said:


> I think most of the viewers don't respond because it's not worth the effort and they don't care. You clearly have your mind set that you think they do though. Honestly I bet 90 percent of the views come from people like me who check this every hour or so just to see if you posted another rant that I could giggle at


Yup this. Seriously NOBODY cares!


----------



## buckhunter2054

What I dont understand is why wait 30 years later to do or say something about it? Why didnt you do something about it back in 1980? Maybe that idea was stolen but, you don't wait 30 + years later to do something about it. No one cares now.


----------



## curvaceous

LOL , you dont have any exclusive rights to using a bark pattern for camo , crumleys camo looks NOTHING like your old mans camo,
you have no proof of when crumley thought of using bark pattern and actually started knocking up suits to wear just for his own personal use .
All you have to go on is when he started producing and marketing on a commercial scale of bark patterned camo.
For all you know he could have been mucking around with the pattern 5-10 years before your old man thought of using it himself.
Again , you dont have any exclusive rights to using a bark pattern , EVEN IF your old man started to produce his own , as long as crumley didnt EXACTLY copy your old mans pattern WHICH HE DIDNT , the is stuff all you could do to stop him starting his own production.
Crumley was the first to PRODUCE a 3d/realistic pattern for the masses , so no matter what you think of who used it before who for their own personal use , which you dont have any real definitive proof of , your claims dont mean crap .
IF it was so cut and dried as you say , why hasnt a lawyer got it in court yet ?


----------



## 21outrage

Buckhunter2054. Here's the deal. No. 1, I never saw the copy of my father's will, as my older brother handled the specifics, and he was the representative of the estate. After my father's death, I traveled from college, down to Grand Rapids, to meet with the Lawyers that handled my father's previous business. Pretty darn sure that my older brother had performed this step before me, yet he has claimed duress for the most of the estate handlings at the time. I, and he... (most likely) were given the professional opinion at the time by my father's lawyers... and they basically sent me (us) out the door packing... with the notion that it was a dead and done deal. At that young age, and in college (fraternity etc.) what is one to do? You are right. I bucked up the fact that I had just lost my dad, along with his project, kept my chin high, and headed back to my then new family at college. All of the documentation, the various proto-type suits, the yellow canister which held the film positives for the final design screens - (film positives)... through various relocations... of others... got tossed, by others that did not know the value or importannce of such. Now therefore... NO TRACES REMAINED... only memories. Then I recently found the majority of the proto-type photos - that had been previoulsy buried, and some were dated. This is what started the mission to find out just what happened back then. I have explained many other components of this, in the other thread titled "The true father of Trebark Camouflage", and in process on the facebook page. Now... I'll ask... what would you have done if you were wearing my same shoes?

I beg to differ on the "No one cares". Time has no relevance in the collaboration that took place then.


----------



## Brandon324

Maybe you should contact Sam Bernstein or Jeffery Fieger, I see your in michigan and these guys I'm sure can handle "the big one" sounds like you would be in for a big pay day if you picked up one of these guys to represent you. Also there is a new law firm that is up and coming. Youtube "goldstein advantage" for their commercial. Good luck


----------



## Marvin

i am voting for crumlee


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

7 pages. The last time he posted all this BS, it went to 11 pages. When this one grows cold, he will start another one and still nodbody will care. If it was legit, he would have this in court but since its BS, AT is the best he can do as he hopes to inform people who will forget his version as soon as they read it. fight the power man. All this bunk is costing you in credibility and wasted time here. :lol:


----------



## jbsoonerfan

I read the last thread and this thread and I still have no idea what you are trying to prove or gain from all of this?

Your Dad had a good idea and maybe he had it before anyone else. But he didn't get the credit for it and now you are trying to prove that he invented "modern" camo. Is that it?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Its clear that even if you had actual proof like a picture of J. Crumley breaking into the vault at your dads lab or even a letter from JC admitting he got the idea from your dad, people here would read your 30 year old tale and still not give a damn. You’re the only one that cares. Its too old to care about. If JC really ate your old man’s lunch. He has already won. Done deal but by all means pee away the rest of your life seeking validation, your loss really.


----------



## Yichi

HOKIEHUNTER07 said:


> Like I said before, it's not unreasonable that two people come up with the same idea. Tesla "invented" the induction motor years after another gentleman did. The first inventor did not have the drive to take it to market or do all the legal leg work. Tesla independently came up with the same idea but had the drive to push it through. Now we have the induction motor as an everyday piece of our lives.
> 
> It's not unreasonable that two men albeit at different times decided that looking like a tree was good for hunting. Your father had set backs that prevented him from creating the industry. He might have come up with the pattern but he did not start producing it. I can't remember whether you said he received a patent or not, but it's pretty easy to get around many patents out there. If a similar idea with a bit different execution comes out they'll often patent both ideas without a problem. Also it's up to the patent holder to enforce their patent and not the government. That's how patents work.
> 
> Basically Crumley came up with the same idea and started producing it before your father ever did. Crumley ramped up production and if he did get any government aid it was likely b/c he had a tangible product that multiple parties had interest in. Once again it's not up to the government to enforce a patent, that's all on the patent holder. If your father never went after Crumley then Crumley did nothing wrong in the eyes of the government. Also I believe there is a lifespan / statute of limitations on patents which means it's likely too late for you to do anything.
> 
> If two ideas are developed in parallel, one person starts producing while the other does not, and no one ever tries to enforce a patent, nothing will happen. Whether your whole story is true or not there are a couple things that are fact:
> 1.) Both men had the same idea
> 2.) One started producing while the other did not
> 3.) Until now, no one tried to enforce a trademark or patent
> 
> I'm sorry you have a sad story of missed opportunity, but that's no one's fault other than your own. If you're just looking for recognition that your father came up with the idea first then here you go. I will acknowledge that it appears your father came out with a tree bark looking camo pattern a long time before Crumley started producing his pattern. That said your father cannot and will not ever be considered the "father of the camo industry" because he simply never got his idea off the ground. He never mass produced and whether or not Crumley directly copied your fathers pattern (which I very highly doubt he did) his actions got the wheels turning on the entire camo industry.
> 
> One more time, what is the end result here? What are you looking for? Closure? Do you want Crumley tarred and feathered? Are you out of work and looking for a free ride? Do you just want your own TV show? Do you just want acknowledgement?
> 
> I and everyone else here are sitting on the banks watching a train derail not understanding what we're seeing... That's why you get views. I come here to see what other people are saying and to laugh not to spread your story. Your views are probably the same people over and over.
> 
> I homebrew cameras. I came up with this great idea to incorporate a wireless router so that you could be within a 100 yards of your cameras and download all your pictures. I was looking into hacking a wireless router and coming up with a way to do this. Guess what, I opened up the bass pro catalog and someone else is commercially producing the same idea. I have proof that I thought of that a while back but guess what, I never did anything with it. Such is life. The first person to get recognized is usually the winner. If you want recognition then come up with a new revolutionary camo and you'll get your recognition.
> 
> I'm sorry but this ship has sailed and to the majority of us you're just harming your father's image. If you think ranting on websites and making people question your sanity honors your father's legacy then by all means carry on.


----------



## BP1992

Do those guys in the pictures think they are hid? One of them is just standing there in the wide open! :set1_rolf2:


----------



## Yichi

I think they were taken as to show off the camo. Otherwise you would never have found them


----------



## Spurhunter

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1172512
> a great opportunity with the above post - to compare the quality of the day. Trebark was way inferior - compared to my dad's designs... and the industry probably suffered a set back at that time.


I agree with you, it's a better pattern IMO. Not sure you'll find justice in all this but rest assured, there will be a judgment day.


----------



## djohns13

21outrage said:


> bsizzle - There are many attorneys out there, that have already looked at this... coast to coast. Some contacted... where their websites promote the fact that they have the resourses to handle the big ones... yet they turn a blind eye, and not based on the merits, and this... additionally put in writing to me as such. As it appears, it's most likley their own self preservation is involved with these dessions. Obviously way too big for many small firms, even it they fully believe the facts. And believe me when I tell you this... there are lawyers out there that believe in what has been presented. The word "pawn" was used by one, and within his explanation to me... wherby telling me that he firmly believes me, and the content provided. I'm not done seeking representation though, and there are some, that have not completely ruled this out yet. Don't forget... there are many other options out there for me to pursue. Pro se is one of them, and there are other forms of due justice. The court of public opinion remains one of them. Nobody knows the case like I do... inside and out, and I am both competent, and capable, of carrying these processes out. There is a 100% definite matter of "Legal Malpractice" involved, but the case expands very rapidly beyond that. It involves what has been described to me as a "civil conspiracy" in totality. It involves the "Sherman Anti-Trust Act", along with many other related items. Yes there are direct matters with statues, but based on the specifics of the case, and the specifics within the "discovery", I'm confident that these issues may be overcome. These forums were *only* one way to start the process of exposure, and with that... possibly representation?
> 
> I've already anwered your last question stated above in other areas, and the answer is yes, and by the way, your analysis of me above is incorrect. I've already gone on record within, that I don't run around as a conspiracy theorist in my daily life. This, and the threads themselves, (with one limited exception - a re-zoing media battle of sorts), are both completely new, and unique aspect of my life that I have now have been forced to contend with. Now... from here on out, as mentioned above, I'll do my best to ignore the junk, and be nice, *but I'll also ask the same from all others*. I did not start this to make anybody mad. That has not been my intent.
> 
> Look... I stated in the very first post here... don't be mad at me for presenting facts recently discovered. It is now, whether you like it or not, part of archery history. It just so happens that this part has yet (until now) been recogonized, and told.
> 
> Now... a good day to *ALL*.


Dude, if you have a single attorney that believes in your case and thinks you should pursue it, then follow their advice and shut up about it. You try to convince judges and juries, rather than laying it out for forum readings. The exposure you are getting here will not be healthy in any way for a court case. And why in the world would you try to convince us that you have attorneys that believe you but then you suggest that Pro Se is an option? If everyone and their mother is out to get you, do you really think you can try this case representing yourself? Let alone win it?

Way too many unanswered questions, conflicting statements, "Hmmmm...'s", and "I'll let you decide" to keep my interest much longer. Before you started this thread to "start the process of exposure", you should have consulted with Chris Carter, creator of the X-Files.


----------



## [email protected]

21outrage said:


> Nobody knows the case like I do... inside and out, and I am both competent, and capable, of carrying these processes out.


I have to question that statement. So far, I haven't seen any capability or competentcy in presenting any info that is either understandable or logically presented. The "blind eye" that legal firms are giving you is probably because you aren't giving them anything that they can use. I consider myself a decently intelligent person with good comprehension skills and the ability to understand info presented but I gotta tell you...I have seen very little by you that I can comprehend and/or understand the point(s) you are trying to make. One point I did understand completely was that someone mistakenly referenced a June/July issue as just a one month issue. Ok...incomplete reference...now what?

You keep saying how great this post is and how the supporters outnumber the naysayers. Really? Do you really believe that or just see things in the way you need to see? This is a legit question because the way you try to present this thread as "support" makes me wonder about any of your other "supporting evidence". 

You also keep challenging the AT forum to answer a set of questions and yet refuse to give a simple and sensible answer to the one question that has been asked of you. Quite frankly, that question is: What are you looking to gain? Don't answer "Justice" because that is a BS cop out answer that in effect means nothing. If it is money, just say so. 

The one thing I can gather out of all this is that you are obviously looking for a free lawyer. 


21outrage said:


> These forums were *only* one way to start the process of exposure, and with that... possibly representation?





21outrage said:


> If you want to send Lawyers, writers, publishers, or anything like that... my way, please do. I won't forget where the referral came from.


I was really hoping to be either a supporting debate member or a naysayer but unfortunately I can't be either, lol.


----------



## hunt1up

Know what I'm gonna do with this info? I'm gonna continue to buy Realtree, Mossy Oak, Predator, and Natgear.


----------



## Matt Musto

Don't forget to vote in the poll so 21outrage can see what kind of support and interest he is dealing with on AT. This should be pretty conclusive evidence as opposed to saying you have a ton of support. 

21outrage, do you understand that noone really understands what you are trying to prove on AT or really cares what is going on?


----------



## Coldone

I'm going to admit to not reading all of the posts, but I'm guessing the reason you can't find a lawyer to assert your claim is that it sounds like you're trying to argue that a man who died almost 40 years ago had a claim for money damages for something that occurred 40 years ago. You've got a serious problem with those 2 aspects: its not your claim, and there's a significant statute of limitations problem.

No charge.


----------



## Coronadayz

hunt1up said:


> Know what I'm gonna do with this info? I'm gonna continue to buy Realtree, Mossy Oak, Predator, and Natgear.


exactly.


----------



## Will K

I agree, predator is cool camo.


----------



## whack&stack

still wont answer my question huh. nice


----------



## 21outrage

Spurhunter... I agree about "judgment day"... and thanks. Facts speak volumes... and this is all about facts.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

Life sucks. I invented the Internet and Al Gore gets the credit.


----------



## 21outrage

Litespeed1… sorry to hear that… as my life doesn’t. All in all… another 1,000 plus views yesterday here, and a few hundred on the other thread. Still have to love that. The old saying… even negative publicity is better than no publicity, stands. I remain confident that MANY can see through the Junk , and will see the *actual facts*, and the notion continually provided here by some… that no one cares about this story, well… I continue to beg to differ that. I'll bet Marion Barry might even be watching this one... and with worried eyes I might guess.


----------



## 21outrage

FYI... my thread is still alive on huntonly.com... and there must have been a glitch somewhere. ???


----------



## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> Litespeed1… sorry to hear that… as my life doesn’t. All in all… another 1,000 plus views yesterday here, and a few hundred on the other thread. Still have to love that. The old saying… even negative publicity is better than no publicity, stands. I remain confident that MANY can see through the Junk , and will see the *actual facts*, and the notion continually provided here by some… that no one cares about this story, well… I continue to beg to differ that. I'll bet Marion Barry might even be watching this one... and with worried eyes I might guess.


As for the actual facts....right now I don't believe the hunting community gives a rat's behind about what might have been. And you keep posting about all the views, you do realize that every time *you* open or post to your own thread that the "view" count goes up, right? That's got to be worth a couple hundred "views" right there.


----------



## 21outrage

litespeed... they should, when you consider the facts presented, and yes, (da)... mine can only account for a select few of those throughout any given day. Maybe 10-12 or so... if that, and sometimes... maybe up to 20. That's still very small as compared to the total here. Seems as if part of the problem here is, that many don't want to accept the fact that things aren't really the way as they have appeared to have been. As I stated in my opening comment within this thread, you were all deceived too, and that's probably the real reason why many are coming back time and time again, in attempts to defend what they once knew as the real industry story. That part... I must must say, makes me LOL. 

Some have asked... why?... this many years later. It remains a fact within out society, that certain revelations are made every day, and that certain exposures of fraud and abuse are also both reported, and in turn confronted . My situation here, is no exception to any other, and it should not come as any surprise to anyone, that someone may discover something, and additionally expose it at that. Time has no relevance within these types of issues. It's the ones will the kahunas to do it, that can make a difference. 

Quote: in part, from email communications with Lee Toliver, VA Pilot... Nov.10, 2010. he writes:
"most people believe anything they see….then there are people like you who search for the truth….which makes you a rare breed"

I agree 100%


----------



## cornfedkiller

This will go on forever until unless we just stop replying and let the thread fall...


----------



## jbsoonerfan

Again, what are you trying to prove or gain from this?

Even if your Dad did come up with the idea first, he obviously didn't do what he needed to do to acquire the patent. Things like this happen all the time. You sound like you are trying to convince us that there was some kind of major cover up or something. If you would "dumb it down" for all of us that aren't near as smart as you, then maybe we could understand what in the world you are talking about or trying to prove.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Attention wh0re. :thumbs_do

Seek help 21outofyourmind. Living this 24 hours a day cant be good for you.


----------



## IrishMike

Outrage 21 I enjoyed the read. I can and do appreciate what your doing here. Especially the amount of work you put into the investigative research and it is nothing short of very impressive. The guys on here commenting poorly are ignorant to what matters when someone developed a career and made millions by screwing someone else or using someone elses idea and the amount of work it took for you to get this far in your study. This reminded me instantly of the wind shield wiper guy. Do you have any facts of the Bowing Company's profits during the time them selling the trebark camo? 

If your not looking for money and only looking for your father to have some fame you have provided enough information to me that he is the original designer of one the first camo patterns! Even the others on here no matter what the comments are, are taking mental notes.

I am a fan, but I would be curious as to what you want to get and what is the driving force of the all the research and legal battle? 

Is it the fame or money or both? I think this is the question everyone wants to know including me. 

I can't blame you for wanting either or both, but I would like to know what the driving force is. 

This is a remarable story of the history of camo as the truth is surfacing and your research proves relevance.


----------



## nnelzon23

*when will this thread die?*


----------



## 21outrage

jbsoonerfan... with all due respect, I have laid out enough info within both threads to indeed show what really happened. If you are intersted in this enough, you will find a way to view, and read, and see for yourself... that there is enough info explained within these 2 threads. You'll find that it is not as simple as you attempted to explain above.

Now onto more important concerns: *IRISHMIKE.* I'll start with this. Thanks!

I'll answer your questions one by one. First, about the profits. All might agree that this may be a hard task to get the real numbers, but there are means of determing certain elements within industry information and trends. These processes are ongoing for now, and as we speak.

What is the driving force? Well, I stated this before, and I'll state it again. This started as a simple quest to publish a few select photos, and give credit where credit was due, but no one would help me do anything about this. Now however... in the beginning of all of this for me, *the definite info* reported about the 60/40 deal offered to my father, by his attorneys... did not sit well with me, and as you might imagine, this helped with the driving force within the research. Now, as time has gone on, the facts being uncovered, have established (as far as I am concerned) exactly what did happen, and throughout these processes, the more and more things that I have witnessed, in efforts to continually hide portions of the truth, well, that in itself, has created a portion of the "driving force". I've asked others along the way, to place themselves in my shoes. What would you do?, and what would you expect? There within...lies your answer. The words Truth and Justice tell it all. Many claim that this is all about money. I have stated before it has become a matter of principle, and family. Whatever else may come from this... I'll conisder it the gravy. 

Now the fame part. Yes I wanted my father to be reconginzed as the pioneer that he was, and Yes... obviously... as the True Father of Tree Bark Camouflage, because as far as I am concerned... the guy that holds that hat, does not deserve it. As far as fame for me, well... this *WAS NOT* part of *any* objectives, *and still isn't*. The dedication that I have set fourth within this project has come from above, and I'll also credit my dad from his grave. I have the talents that I have today because of *both of them*. I have faith, and I beleive that this revelation for me, at this particular time in my life, came for a reason, and is part of HIS PLAN. I'll remain confindent that you will know what I mean. 

I agree with your last comment... "This is a remarkable story of the history of camo". It is, without a doubt, as I have described it...hard to believe...until you see the facts. 

Now others, as you have mentioned, are making a point to discredit me. They can call it anyway they like, and for now, and from my end, I'll simply consider it a one man army, and one with no signed contracts. (as of yet )

Thanks again for your realsitic comments, and I commend you for coming out with these as you have. It's my guess...that there may be others that want to do the same, but have held back for one reason or another. That's ok, but I would now encourage any others that are viewing this, and that also believe, to stand... and show your support here. Help place the negitivity being directed my way, in it's correct place. I'm sure that they cannot stand to see comments like yours!

hope I answered your questions... and we all will just have to wait and see... just how all of this pans out. I'm far from done, and have volumes more in the kitty.

Good Day again.


----------



## jbsoonerfan

Good Luck, hope you can get what you are after.


----------



## radtuck

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Life sucks. I invented the Internet and Al Gore gets the credit.


http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=vepcauRpinA


----------



## 21outrage

News Flash! A long awaited, and VERY KEY document arrived in the mail yesterday, signed, sealed (notorized), and delivered. This one puts the icing on my cake!


* self addressed - return envelope - where the 2 purple heart stamps were mine.


----------



## HOKIEHUNTER07

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1174321
> News Flash! A long awaited, and VERY KEY document arrived in the mail yesterday, signed, sealed (notorized), and delivered. This one puts the icing on my cake!


A wedding invitation??? ha


----------



## Backstrapz

AWESOME NEWS.. I don't really care


----------



## Nameless Hunter

I'm waiting with worms on my tongue (bated breath)...


----------



## 21outrage

Ha! try a "Statement of Fact" - directly relating to the previously noted... 

* "definite info reported about the 60/40 deal offered to my father, by his attorneys"*


----------



## 21outrage

A long awaited... "icing on the cake" document arrived yesterday. Signed, Sealed (Notorized), and Delivered! Nice.

the self addressed, stamped envelope provided, with my two purple heart stamps included.


----------



## 21outrage

"read it and weep"


----------



## Backstrapz

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1174362
> "read it and weep"


Why would I weep??? This has no effect on my life what so ever.. Get over yourself.. Hope you cash in on your dads "Invention".. You seem logical lol


----------



## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1174362
> "read it and weep"


Who is being referred to as "Being of sound mind and body"?


----------



## Backstrapz

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Who is being referred to as "Being of sound mind and body"?


Crumley :tongue:


----------



## 21outrage

the above... confirms the info previously reported to me, on the 60/40 deal, then offered to my father on his invention, by his then... attorneys. It also confirms the additional info presented then, and this info, was amongst his ongoing heath issues during those times... and my father's later efforts to continue to advance his idea, via... a licencing agreement. A company named "Coleman was named here within... regarding the "licensing agreement". All efforts to confirm any information with "Coleman" have been unsucessful to this date, but now... it is no longer needed.


----------



## 21outrage

attachement as it relates to above... one of the limited slivers of info - previously provided to me, and by my father's law firm, Price Heneveld.


----------



## Freelance Bowhunter

21outrage, your father obviously screwed up. He had a great idea that he was able to go nowhere with. Why are you smearing his name all over the internet? Let him rest in peace. 

Crumley didn't do much with it either. It took a guy like Bill Jordan and later Toxey Haas to really make it happen. Your dad really didn't have what it takes. Now let it go.


----------



## 21outrage

Well now... since this thread was originally implemented to simply steer viewers to the thread in the history section titled...
"The true father of tree bark camouflage", I'll now be posting all new info there, and not here. So if you want to read on from here as I add new info, that is where you will want to go. The last five or six posts here, after my first ones this morning... do not deserve a reply from me whatsoever, however... I will say this to whack n stack... your true colors are showing thru loud and clear with the comments in your last post. (let alone, most of the others.)

Good Day all.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> View attachment 1171136
> here's the upper portion of Bowing's Third Ad... that ran in Oct./Nov. issue of Bowhunter Magazine.
> 
> If if looks like the indentical picture to YOU... then YOU are most likley CORRECT.
> 
> (lead time then... late July, and into Aug.)


21-What are you saying is identical? The picture or the camo in the picture?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Thank gawd thats over. See you again in 3 months when you need more attention. :wink:


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## 21outrage

Lightspeed - based on your previous comments elsewhere, I will no longer reply to any of your comments. Figure that one out yourelf. Now, before I move on, I'll include this, an image which is included within the Bowing Patent for the camouflage pattern. Now if you want, compare this to the image in the second ad, shown in post#303 above. You'll see that it is quite different in many ways. I'm only pointing this out, as a matter of fact.


----------



## 21outrage

and a couple more tad bits of info from the two Bowing Patents, again for additional reference.


----------



## 21outrage

including the same examiner involved in part, with the R.O.Smith patent application.


----------



## 21outrage

now this one... from the "suit" patent... notice the difference between the images there.


----------



## 21outrage

and with the "suit" patent again... probably not like the stories where sister Mary Beth, with her fine arts degree... does all of the artwork on the project.


----------



## 21outrage

and here is another important part


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## 21outrage

and this one, now worth posting again.


and the verbiage in here... directly involves the patent examiner "corrigan"....amongst other things.


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## 21outrage

Now... next I will post a video that I took with my cell phone, and off of my computer screen. It is just a small part of the already talked about... video that was removed from the OutfitterTuff website. I took this video when the video was still online, but as I have mentioned... once a friend of mine downloaded a copy of it, shortly thereafter... it disappeared. I've already posted my transcript that I made from this particular video, but I will go ahead...and re-include the proper text in writing - that applies to this portion, before I post the link. For simplicity sake... I'll just name the video on Youtube as Camouflage Baloney.

Now keep this in mind when you watch this. I have watched the entire feature many times. The Body Language thing falls into play very heavy within this video. Not only to simply hear this video...the way the words roll out of his mouth, with the ah's, ums. we's and I's - and the pauses... but the facial espressions, and the look aways are also key within. I plan on having it professionally analalized, and in turn, *the results documented*. One key thing within, is a common item that you may have heard before... is the old saying "watch the eyes".

It remains a key piece of evidence, and that's most likley why it is no longer available for publc viewing.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> Lightspeed - based on your previous comments elsewhere, I will no longer reply to any of your comments. Figure that one out yourelf. Now, before I move on, I'll include this, an image which is included within the Bowing Patent for the camouflage pattern. Now if you want, compare this to the image in the second ad, shown in post#303 above. You'll see that it is quite different in many ways. I'm only pointing this out, as a matter of fact.
> View attachment 1175061


Kinda childish don't you think? I'm only trying to figure out what is what, and some of your posts ramble on and on. I read and reread your posts, but am not having much luck. Then when I ask a legitimate question, this is the answer I get.

Now for the "obvious" difference between this picture of the camo material (post #327) and the image in post #303, the difference I see is that one (post 327) looks like a photograph and the other (post 303) looks like a drawing.


----------



## Freelance Bowhunter

21outrage said:


> Well now... since this thread was originally implemented to simply steer viewers to the thread in the history section titled...
> "The true father of tree bark camouflage", I'll now be posting all new info there, and not here. So if you want to read on from here as I add new info, that is where you will want to go. The last five or six posts here, after my first ones this morning... do not deserve a reply from me whatsoever, however... I will say this to whack n stack... your true colors are showing thru loud and clear with the comments in your last post. (let alone, most of the others.)
> 
> Good Day all.


Sucks if that's all the better DNA he could give you too.


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## 21outrage

Litespeed - I said I wouldn't reply, but as it seems that amongst your previous negitive comments, you still are intersted in the real story, well... I'll now try to oblige you. In your last statment above, yes... seems as if the image from the patent shown in post 327 is in fact a photo, and a photo of some fabric, and yes, it seems as if the image in the second ad, from post 303, is a drawing, rather than fabric. Now your previous question about the related photos in posts 301 (ad #3) and post 300 (the second pic Crumley sent me - whereby he states it was taken in 1978), that's the one I left for you to compare. I'm pretty darn sure that those two are the same photo, with the expection of some slight cropping on one verison. 

Now before I post the video previously mentioned, I'll say this. I agree that the nature of allot of these posts may seem vary random, but... when I started all of this, it was started with a seat of the pants concept, and only placing particular info out there that would obviously grab attention to the story line. Rest assured that I do have the capabilities to place this all in proper order when I need to, in fact... from my end, that's already happening, and in a big way. I reject your childish comment, and without looking back right now, probably the majority of your previous ones, but after this... if you agree to be nice, I'll do the same. Kapish?


----------



## 21outrage

Now here you go. Camouflage Baloney. Make sure that you turn up the volume... and please... watch more than once, and also... "watch the eyes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgbxs3VK0Gk


NOTE: This should serve as PROOF that this video was previously ONLINE, and at this point, I'll just skip adding the text again.

PS - if anyone knows the name of the interviewer here - shown briefly at the end, I would like to know who this guy is.


----------



## 21outrage

Look out for microexpressions. Microexpressions are facial expressions that flash on a person's face for a fraction of a second and reveal the person's true emotion underneath their facade. Some people may be naturally sensitive to them, but almost anybody can easily train to be able to detect microexpressions. Typically, in a person who is lying, their microexpression will exhibit the emotion of distress, characterized by the eyebrows being drawn upwards towards the middle of the forehead (sometimes causing short lines to appear across the forehead skin).


----------



## 21outrage

Timing and duration tends to be off when someone is lying. If you ask someone a question and they respond directly after the question, there is a chance that the person is lying. This can be because they have rehearsed the answer, or they're already thinking about the answer just to get it over with and move forward.
Pay close attention to the person's reaction to your questions. A liar will often feel uncomfortable and turn their head or body away, or even subconsciously put an object between the two of you. Also, while an innocent person would go on the offensive (usually responding with anger, which will usually be revealed in a microexpression directly after you say you don't believe them), a guilty person will often go immediately on the defensive (usually by saying something to reassure their facts, such as deflections).


the above two post, just a couple simple copy and pastes. there is obviously more out there on this subject, and YES... even these opinions vary, BUT you should get the jist here, as it relates to the video above. YOU DECIDE.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> Litespeed - I said I wouldn't reply, but as it seems that amongst your previous negitive comments, you still are intersted in the real story, well... I'll now try to oblige you. In your last statment above, yes... seems as if the image from the patent shown in post 327 is in fact a photo, and a photo of some fabric, and yes, it seems as if the image in the second ad, from post 303, is a drawing, rather than fabric. *Now your previous question about the related photos in posts 301 (ad #3) and post 300 (the second pic Crumley sent me - whereby he states it was taken in 1978), that's the one I left for you to compare. I'm pretty darn sure that those two are the same photo, with the expection of some slight cropping on one verison. *Now before I post the video previously mentioned, I'll say this. I agree that the nature of allot of these posts may seem vary random, but... when I started all of this, it was started with a seat of the pants concept, and only placing particular info out there that would obviously grab attention to the story line. Rest assured that I do have the capabilities to place this all in proper order when I need to, in fact... from my end, that's already happening, and in a big way. I reject your childish comment, and without looking back right now, probably the majority of your previous ones, but after this... if you agree to be nice, I'll do the same. Kapish?


Is this the pictures of Jim Crumley standing against the trees? If so, one picture shows a single tree and the other a split trunk or perhaps two trees. If I'm still not following, please explain exactly which two pictures you are referring to. Kapish?


----------



## Arkarcher

Even if it was stolen from your dad, I'll ASSURE you that the patterns aren't identical, which means case closed. 

And there were hundreds of people before your dad that made their own camo and didnt' care to market it, I think it's cool what your dad did, seems like a cool guy, but you should leave it at that and congradulate Crumley for marketing it and carrying out the vision he had.


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## 21outrage

Will answer you later... gotta run.


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## Ron Bennington

Why are you so down on Chumlee? The guy gave us a great camo pattern. I am not going to read the entire thread or look at some other website to see why you are so upset. Not worth my time. Chumlee got to the patent office first so he wins.










Chumlee rules.....stop hating on the guy.


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## nova bowhunter

i think that 21o has seen Erin Brokovich one too many times.


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## Garceau

Well I can tell you this - I am trained investigator and interrogator and have done extensive studies with micro expressions, as well as eye accessing clues. One thing you are missing is a baseline needs to be established, you didnt mention that point.

Also I am trained in layered voice analysis and I suppose for enough money I would be willing to run any videos or audio tapes you have through it and could bolster a claim for you if what you say is true.

however those services are not cheap.


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## 21outrage

Well... you go away for a while, and when you come back AT decides to merge the two seperate threads. Oh well, Now the sheer volume of views over 13K should attract even more attention. Now Litespeed, here's the answer to your last qeustion.








Garceau - that's only a sliver of the entire video... and just the part that's shown there alone... looks pretty obvious to me - considering everything else I have on this.

How much?, and who's side are you on? Send me some info via a personal message if you want.


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## Garceau

Dude I am on no side..... it doesnt effect me one way or another.


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## eaglecaps

How do we simply get this guy banned? He is obviously nuts and I'm getting sick of seeing the History thread go to the dogs...


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## 21outrage

Good day. Today I will simply start by posting this. I think that it is completely wrong for the persons resonsible at Archerytalk.com, to take it upon themselves, to merge two of my threads, into one. I do not believe that there is any reason for this. How many other memebers have they done this to? Would you like it if they did this to you? Just because the nature of these thread are contorversial at best, should not be a good enough reason to make these rash decisions regarding formatiing. I'm pretty confident that this must remain a first for this site. This merge, not only screwed up the continuing coorelation of this thread by mixing the two together, it screwed with the progression of the other. My Right to post a thead, or post within a thread... once again compromised by the managment of this site. This I won't forget within, and it has remained well documented.

I'll end with this today... a quote, in part, from previous post of "eaglecaps" above... from Aug. 23. 

"you do realize that the business world and the world in general is full of crooks and schiesters. I'm sorry for what happened to your father, Mr CRUMMY is obviously one of them"

Now how would you like it Mr. Caps... if they banned you for your opinion?, or they moved your comments to somewhere else?


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## LiteSpeed1

21outrage said:


> Good day. Today I will simply start by posting this. I think that it is completely wrong for the persons resonsible at Archerytalk.com, to take it upon themselves, to merge two of my threads, into one. I do not believe that there is any reason for this. How many other memebers have they done this to? Would you like it if they did this to you? Just because the nature of these thread are contorversial at best, should not be a good enough reason to make these rash decisions regarding formatiing. I'm pretty confident that this must remain a first for this site. This merge, not only screwed up the continuing coorelation of this thread by mixing the two together, it screwed with the progression of the other. My Right to post a thead, or post within a thread... once again compromised by the managment of this site. This I won't forget within, and it has remained well documented.
> 
> I'll end with this today... a quote, in part, from previous post of "eaglecaps" above... from Aug. 23.
> 
> "you do realize that the business world and the world in general is full of crooks and schiesters. I'm sorry for what happened to your father, Mr CRUMMY is obviously one of them"
> 
> Now how would you like it Mr. Caps... if they banned you for your opinion?, or they moved your comments to somewhere else?


You have to remember, this is a private site and therefore ArcheryTalk can delete, move and edit any posts they so desire.


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## eaglecaps

:spy:I've had stuff mysteriously disappear before, due to my political views against our current "administration" or rather lack there of. I'm used to it and actually expected it. What really surprises me is that the gestapo hasn't shown up at my door. And you have no rights here, or anywhere else for that matter. What we as people are granted are privileges. I strongly believe in the Constitution of the United States of America upon which at this time in history no one is really paying attention to said document. I've even heard where our elected officials regard it as "an outdated document written so so long ago". Sorry man, write a book or start your own website and hire a professional editor to put all of your documents into a format that may be coherently readable and follow-able and you just may convince someone to believe and really understand what you're trying to get across here. And one other thing please don't call me Mr.!


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## 21outrage

Now seeking Sept. 1996 copy of Field and Stream magazine. If you have one, and are willing to let it go, please send me a personal message within site.


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## 21outrage

appropriate for the day.


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## 21outrage

I mentioned this before within... but here is the proof to back that claim.








as I have said before... was this answer by their head of marketing, and with the 1982 thing, a little white lie?


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## hunter41606

Dude, noone cares. The only reason people look at this thread is to laugh at how foolish your arguments are. Seriously random pictures and documents do NOT mean jack to anyone on here, and the fact that you can't explain them worth a darn doesn't help.


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## 21outrage

I'm still here. Just been very busy!


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## eaglecaps

great.......


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## 21outrage

http://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/diary/pdd741206.pdf just one of many... this one a few days before the formation of Corp. Registered Agent, Inc. DC - the company responsible for starting Bowing Enterprises (Trebark)


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## 21outrage

http://www.knowitall.org/legacy/laureates/Frederick B. Dent.html interesting info related to the direct times.


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## 21outrage

Good Day! One previous poster indicated... "keep us updated", another posted... "stick to your guns no matter what", and then another one posted... "It's reassuring to see some people still stick up for themselves instead of rolling over and taking what the man dishes out", well today... some new info. Upon some very new developments that particually involve the prior estate of my father... I recently sent my second certified letter this week to the firm that handled my father's business back then. This, was in a direct reply to their last response to me in 2009, (already posted here within somewhere) where they stated they would no longer communicate with me, and because my letter included a tone. So, today... I get their immedate reply, when I actually allowed within my request, about 10 days to properly reply to both my older requests, and some new ones.


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## 21outrage

attached here...some excerpts from their letter... and a few notes added below. Now some out there, are obviously going to continue to bash me, but this one is for the believers... and yes... ANOTHER YOU DECIDE... if my demands are "unreasonable", and if my accusations could even, and by far at this point... be considered as "unfounded".


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## 21outrage

and by the way... within their letter... they threatened to "contact the police" on me, if I attempted further contact. Rest assured that I will not give them the opportunity to do this. They have also considered my contacts as "harrassment", in which I will now directly refuse that accusation! And now, and based on their new and full reply, my immediate actions to follow, and these actions, as directly compared to the particular comment of contacting "the police"... well... they have just advanced some of my future goals and objectives. *These items shall now go into high gear*. And now again... also rest assured, that I will keep the ones that want to know the progress - updated here... and in due time.

have a nice day!


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## eaglecaps

Dude's gonna wind up getting locked up...


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## woodsman70

?????


----------



## woodsman70




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## 21outrage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgbxs3VK0Gk


----------



## 21outrage

Here is one of the articles that helped me put this all together. A good read...

http://www.thetrucker.com/News/Stor...egendaryTedWilliamsandhisfirstturkeyhunt.aspx


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## 21outrage

the above goes alone with this.

http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/billcochran/wb/258102


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## 21outrage

and this...

http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/wb/257934


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## 21outrage

and this one... *pay very close attention to paragraph no. 2.*
http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story133067.html


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## 21outrage

and here's an older one... pay attention to the paragraph... third from the end of this article. it remains a controdictory item from my end.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-16822


----------



## 21outrage

and here's part of an article that I previously printed... that I now can't seem to find online. original source: Roanoke Times


----------



## 21outrage

Copied and pasted below... one, of many communications (and one of the last ones) that I had with outdoor writer Bill Cochran - prominately writing for the Roanoke Times. This dated Friday, Nov. 2, 2010, and after me providing much info prior, and then following up with him once again. He writes... and I quote:

"Mark, you are correct, I have been sitting on this story. I think it is an important one, but I'm not the one to do it. I just do a modest Web site. I think it merits a mainstream writer. I haven't had much success in finding that person who is interested. I talked with Mark Taylor, outdoor editor of the Roanoke Times and officer in the Outdoor Writers Association of America and he said the only way he'd be interested would be if some legal action had been initiated. Until then, he said, there is no story. I have one more possible option I am pursuing and will see how that works out. 

Now I disagree with "Mark Taylor", and I have gotten the same story over and over from various outdoor writers. "but I'm not the one to do it".

Hense... here we are today.


----------



## 21outrage

here's a couple of items from the Va Dept. of Game and Inland Fisheries published code of ethics. Yes again... another YOU DECIDE if they may, or may not, be relevant in the earlier dismissal of Sherry Crumley's post there. Keep in mind again... my research has been vast, and self exposing...especially in DC and VA.


----------



## 21outrage

In email communications with a one Laura Lee Dovey - Outdoor writer, and affiliate with the POMA (professional outdoor media association)

Communications in part...

On 8/14/2010, I write... Hello Laura, 
I came across this article on Suite101. 
http://hunting.suite101.com/article.cfm/jim_crumly_inventor_of_modern_hunting_camoflauge 
I was wondering if you wrote that in 2009, 
and if there was an interview included to achieve your 
respective writings? If not, where did your resources 
come from, to write the article that you did?

she writes back on the 18th... "I met Jim Crumly in 1987 or 88 -- just as he launched Trebark. I've also been friends with Bill Jordan and Toxey Haas -- since the days they launched their companies. Over the years (wow, 20+ now) I have interviewed all three individual and collectively several times -- about the history of modern camo -- and what they hoped to achieve with their companies/camo patterns". 

Now... I questioned the 87 or 88 thing... as it pertains to the comment *"just as he launched Trebark", *and pointed out that it was really 7 years earlier. 

about a month later, and within the same line of communications, on Sept. 15th, in part... she writes...

"I have lots of questions, based on the information you've provided below and would like to set up a telephone interview -- because it's difficult for me to read between the lines and understand what you're looking for here or where you're headed".

but then... much later... and only after then indicating that she would tape an interview with me... well... these communications ended, and within her last email to me... a lawyer was carbon copied on the message. wonder why?


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## 21outrage

Now back to the firm of Price Heneveld for a moment. Remember... the firm's founder... Peter P. Price started his firm in Grand Rapids, MI. in 1952, after working as an engineer for Boeing Enterprises, Inc. He was joined a few years later by Lloyd Heneveld.


----------



## 21outrage

Now... Lloyd A. Heneveld... from Holland, MI., a super star like his predicessor Gerald R. Ford at the U of M.


----------



## 21outrage

Now actually... if I'm not 100% mistaken, which I do not believe that I am, Lloyd A. Heneveld, actually started out as "Alvin Lloyd Heneveld".


----------



## 21outrage

now if you noticed from the attachement above... Lloyd...one of 12 children of George E. Heneveld, well, he had a brother named George as well, and a few years older.


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## 21outrage

and big brother George...well, was a Captain in the US Army


----------



## 21outrage




----------



## 21outrage

Now if you don't know anything about Holland, Mi., well... it's just to the west of Grand Rapids, about 30 miles, and on the shores of Lake Michigan. A Dutch community settled in the late 1800's by Dutch folks from the Netherlands. Now you are probably wondering where all this is going.... well, I'll get to that in due time here.


----------



## eaglecaps

21outrage said:


> Now if you don't know anything about Holland, Mi., well... it's just to the west of Grand Rapids, about 30 miles, and on the shores of Lake Michigan. A Dutch community settled in the late 1800's by Dutch folks from the Netherlands. Now you are probably wondering where all this is going.... well, I'll get to that in due time here.


 May I ask where else but the Netherlands do "Dutch folks" come from? Libya? Myanmar? This really is going no where. You really need to publish this in a form that can be understood, not bits and pieces.


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## 21outrage

and this tidbit. last paragraph... "nation's worst weather" ???????????????????????

no wonder why the writer writes - "questionable" recongnition.


----------



## 21outrage

and as it appears now... well, ol George Sr., seems himself to have had a few connections too. yes again... another YOU DECIDE.






all for meager $'s, and for past due tax bills, and only one $50.00 one, that skewed the average to $16.92. Seems as if no one but George had any money to spend at Land Auctions back in the day. ???
or did the auctions ever really take place?


----------



## 21outrage

I don't think it's necessary to post them all individually here... but I will inlcude this last one, as it remains the most interesting of them all.


----------



## 21outrage

Now you might be asking how does all of this tie in? Well like I said before. Holland is a short distance from GR, and has the resort shoreline favored by many, and for many years.

From the book titled: “Time and Chance”, Gerald R. Ford’s appointment with history, by James M. Cannon. In it, and around 1947, and leading to Ford’s entry into the political arena… it appears to state a quote by Ford that reads:

“First, I had to make sure that I had the endorsements of a number of Dutch Leaders. The Dutch made of sixty percent of the population of the district, and 90% were Republican. There were two rival groups, the Dutch Reformed Church, and the Dutch Christian Reformed Church;”


----------



## Chasing_bone

I cant believe this thread is still going. LOL


----------



## 21outrage

and this should place most of the recent posts together for all... as the Ford's, well, they also were what I had referred to above as "favored by many, and for many years".

http://www.historicottawabeach.com/page110.html

and if you want to see more about the area there mentioned, here's a link to the primary home page of the link posted just above.
noting pages 13,14, & 15...within the History section.

http://www.historicottawabeach.com/index.html


----------



## 21outrage

here in 53, Gerald R. Ford Jr. would have been approx. 40 years old, and if you think that you had seen the name "Niewsma" somewhere before, you were right, as it appears in the birth certificates posted earlier, wherby the wife of the then Twp. Supervisor's... maiden name.


----------



## 21outrage

and this fondness for the lakeshore goes back even further... and probably even further than this.






Here in 1939, Gerald R. Ford Jr. would have been about 26 yrs. of age.


----------



## 21outrage

Now a year or so back, while sharing this story for the first time with a close friend from Grand Rapids... an individual that also grew up with a cottage on the bluffs of Lake Michigan for his entire life in Holland...(now admittedly somewhat priveledged I would have to say) and this same person, who just so happened to hold intimant knowlegde about the business history and interworkings GR itself, well... when discussing the relationships of Peter P. Price, Lloyd Heneveld, Gerald R. Ford, the politics and business climate then, the law firms formed there in the late 1940's by Ford, and the one with Price Heneveld in 1952... along with the Football connection from the U of M between Ford & Heneveld, and Holland... when I made a comment to him about the possibilities of Ford being "buddies" with the others... his reply, which I will never forget, was *"YA THINK"?* Let me assure you that this comment was made with the notion that I will now describe as... being a confirmation of my then assumptions. Much later... I spoke with another key individual, and this person, *with even more keen insight* into the same items mentioned above, and this conversation was then narrowed more to Lloyd Heneveld and Gerald Ford specifically, well...his comment was... although he did not for a fact, he would have personally assumed *that they were friends*.


----------



## 21outrage

"canons of journalism" - in part... wikapedia: While various existing codes have some differences, most share common elements including the principles of — truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability — as these apply to the acquisition of newsworthy information and its subsequent dissemination to the public.

this is for the ones that already hold the info - but do nothing about it.


----------



## 21outrage

speaking of accuarcy... I will correct a mistake that I made within post #524 within, and in the future. it's minor... but relevant.


----------



## 21outrage

And again, speaking of accuracy, I needed one more piece on this, before I could post. 
This property…the same one referenced a couple of attachments back (warranty deed – 
to 4 brothers) actually purchased in 1946, (about the same time previously indicated within 
book quote, and related to gaining endorsements of “Dutch Leaders”). All in all… the now documented time span from 1939 to 1964 indicates a *solid 25 history* of the Ford family within the resort district of Holland, MI.


----------



## 21outrage

With this project... most things require a little digging obviously, and most times... it's always good to track back as far as you need to, to see a bigger picture, and if it exists. I'm Pretty sure that the attached link here, is info related to the "private party" that Gerald R. Ford Jr., and his mother, originally purchased this property from in 1946. The link allows to to follow some additional family history, and with other links within, and hense shows things like... that this guy's... wife's dad, even graduated from the U of M, and way back in 1859. 

worth a look! http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=63541532


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## 21outrage

So as long as we are looking at these things... we might as well look at the seller of the earlier property purchase there in 1939, where Gerald R. Ford Sr. and wife... first acquire the land/cottage. There's not much presently out there on the seller "Edward H. Idema", other than it seems he was born around 1890, but yet was another U of M guy, and from around 1912. If this is the correct individual, then he would have been around 40 years old when he sold the property to the Ford's. (approx. 14 yrs. the elder... of Gerald R. Ford, Jr.)

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=yearbooksindex&h=13191719&new=1


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## 21outrage

Now here's an example of why this tracking back (or fourth) is important. I recently ran accross some info on a "sherifs sale", of what I would consider as a similar type of property, in the same direct area, and this was dated around 1890. . That property then sold for about $1,100.00, and this, as compared to a property puchase in 1939 (land & cottage) almost 50 years later for a value of $2,500. Then the same property was sold about 5 years later, for just another $1,000... (total $3,500.00)

These types of numbers are simply not that hard to figure out, and when you are calculating the odds of related items. Here I'm not 100% sure that this purchaser, 5 years later in 46, is the right person or not, but it sure seems to mold to many other items within this project. 

potential purchaser... see: http://www.usswestvirginia.org/veterans/personalpage.php?id=3644


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## 21outrage

Now lastly here... the assumed purchaser in 1964... of the Ford brothers cottage by the lake... you may have already guessed 
this part... "He earned his B.A. and M.A. degrees from the University of Michigan" So hense maybe... the $1,000 bump after 5 yrs. - analysis? If this is the correct person, he would have been about 45 yrs old at the time of the purchase in 64'. (now as compared to the approx. then age of Gerald R. Ford Jr. of 51 yrs.) Makes pefect sence to me.

http://business.highbeam.com/5444/article-1G1-102124921/dr-arthur-w-angrist

Now it should remain obvious... that evaluatiing any and all info, and establishing any trends or important aspects within... may remain important for one to see the larger picture. It seems to remain that ONE primary trend exists within my project... and yes again... you guessed it... it's the U of M.

Everyone have a great weekend, and share this story with your friends.


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## 21outrage

One last item before I go. A recap of some items previously mentioned... and to leave you with some additional perspective on things.

George E. Heneveld - Park Twp. Supervisor (approx. 25yrs.) Born: approx. 1880 (was approx. 62 upon his death - and about 58 or 59 yrs. old when the Ford Family first aquired land in Holland, MI. in 39') and until his death in 42'... YES...he was a *"dutch leader".* And for the next 17 years with another *"dutch leader"* named ... Dick Nieusma (there's that name again!)... 
well...you should get my point, and this all based on the then... related times.

Gerald R. Ford Jr. - Born 1913
Peter P. Price - Born 1918
George Heneveld Jr.- Born 1919
Lloyd A. Heneveld - Born - 1925


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## 21outrage

part of some coorespondence that I had via...an AT site admin on Sept. 21, 2011... he/she writes... 
(and I'll leave out the user name at this point)

"Keep using our free private forum for your crusade....... unreal..."


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## 21outrage

today... one of my favorite prior posts from "eaglecaps"... from post #119

"I hate to tell you this , but you do realize that the business world and the world in general is full of crooks and schiesters. I'm sorry for what happened to your father, Mr CRUMMY is obviously one of them".


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## 21outrage

Since I haven't touched on this issue yet, next I'll address the lawyers from "Burns, Doane, Swecker & Mathis"... the ones that handled the two patents for Bowing Enterprises, Inc. (Crumley/Trebark) in 1980. Now instead of the (13) lawyers that were orginally represented on my father's patent application, and on the "power of attorney" form... with Burns, Doane (also then, a considerably large firm) there were *ONLY* (2) lawyers on the POA for the Bowing Patents.


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## 21outrage

The first one... well, you probably already guessed it, he was from the U of M as well. (1962) There at the same time as (3), if not (4) of the (13) lawyers from Price Heneveld that appeared on my dad's POA/Patent application.


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## 21outrage

The second one... a one... "George A. Havonec Jr.", well.... he got his Law Degree at Georgetown University in 1977, and he was there at the exact same time as "John T. Brennan" - from... Corporate Registered Agent, Inc./Bowing Enterprises, Inc.


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## 21outrage

Both of them can be found here today at the following links.

http://www.bipc.com/george-a-hovanec/

http://www.bipc.com/benton-s-duffett/


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## 21outrage

and here's a little sliver I forgot, and I know it's not in any order here, but the attached... representing two of the members from
the "carrying company". the dates remain important for sure.


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## 21outrage

here's a link to some additional dated information. Right now I am not saying that this has anything to do with anything, except the fact that when I originally came across this ad, the words "Holland, MI." made it pop off the page for me. This ad is documented to have appeared at a minimum, from 1964 to about 1979. A definite relevant time period within the scope of my project. The ad reads...

"450,000 ACRES Valuable Government Land now available Low as $1 per acre. Buy, lease, or homestead free. Farms, Campsites, Homesites. Fabulous Business Opportunities. Latest Report $1 Satisfaction Guaranteed. American Land Disposal Box 725-C (and others... Box 725-A, Box 730-C, Box 730-OFA) Holland, MI 49423.

The same add appears in conjunction with some very similar ones, but these, based out of other cities, including washington dc.

Both the county of Ottawa, and the State of Michigan... show no record of a company called "American Land Disposal", and the ad inserts themselves... simply currently remain as a subject of continued interest, and as they may potentially relate to the previously mentioned bigger picture.

some examples... if you would like to see for yourself. 
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...w.,cf.osb&fp=331d9bc53ca2103f&biw=999&bih=535


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## 21outrage

Will Get Back to this with some more explantion later... But here is some of the History I mentioned... about the financial capabilities... or lack thereof (supposively)... that lend to the stories of the No. 2 to enter the Tree Bark style business.


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## 21outrage

Now before I get back to the above... today I need to add this. Another example... like the previous one at Bowsite.com, in efforts to seemingly minimize my efforts of spelling out some facts.









oh yes... here are a couple of related links if you choose to go there.

http://www.manta.com/c/mm5tqww/ics-solutions-inc

http://www.ilsos.gov/corporatellc/CorporateLlcController


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## Kexyreeld

*# thanks*

thanks for the topic! I four hours searched in a network for something similar


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## 21outrage

Back to post #655 - Here's a related link to an older story (removed, changed, or ammended Oct. 18, 2005) found at the waybackmachine.com - for Realtree. The new version... leaves out a particular portion (under the section... "about Bill"...
where they mention Bill's Father Leon, prospering with a marine dealership when the (Army) Corps of Engineers built "Lake Oliver" on the "Chattahoochee River". Now I may have posted this link before, and if I did... then I'm simply posting it again, and with a new perspective. I'll address a few more items of the Realtree stories... that to me, simply do not make any sence. Yes, these will remain again... more "you decide" options.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051018103145/http://www.realtree.com/about/bill-jordan.tpl 

seems this one is having trouble loading... I jsut clicked the "impatient" link... bottom right... and it booted right up.

to be continued.


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## 21outrage

here is another related link for additional reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Oliver

as you will see, the completion date of the damm that created Lake Oliver... matches the year in the formation documents posted above in post #655.


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## 21outrage

Before I get back to the Realtree Stories... I finally got a chance to download some pics today from my phone. I wanted to post this picture as proof of a previous post. From pg. 12 here, Post # 329, dated Sept. 24th... here is a pic of the pop up screen that represents one of the the two photos that Crumley sent me via. email. This file was the picture that showed what he claimed was one of his original proto-types, "probably from 1971".






Also shown in this photo... is an icon on the screen - representing my copy of the video interview from 2007 (i think) that once was on the Outfitter Tuff website, but magically disappeared... after a friend of mine, downloaded a copy.  I have made plenty of back ups of this file. 

If you need further explanation of this... see all of the related posts during that time of Sept. 24.


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## 21outrage

View attachment 1203552
and while I am at it here... here is proof of the other file/picture mentioned within the same line of coorespondence. This second photo that he sent me, supposively represented a picture of him "taken in 1978", but didn't appear in an ad until the Oct./Nov. issue - Bowhunter Magazine, 1980. Also remember??? this one, was the one he stated that it didn't look anything like what we ended up marketing in 1980, but is realistically... the same photo.


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## 21outrage

now again... and before I move on, I just clicked on a link to a story that I previously posted here earlier within. An article from 2005 that was in the Roanoke Times. I realized that I did not have a hard copy of this scanned to my files, so I printed off a copy for that purpose. When I re-read it... some items jumped off the page to me, and made me laugh again, so I thought that I would take the time now to address these here, and from my perspective.








First... the "single" thing again. This... "single" thing remains as an intrical element within the vast majority of the written accounts of the history of trebark. It also was mentioned in the recently mentioned "removed" video interview. Here again... the writer includes this element with a statement about "risk".

The next portion highlighted within, talks about the book published in 1994. Let's see here... his patents issued in 1980... and good for 14 years. That would be 1994. Pretty much self explainable. I love the last line that is boldly highlighted in that section. Jim is probably wishing now that he simply should have referred me to his book for my answers, and in turn, not to have communicated in writing with me like he did in 2010. These communications my friends...remain critical in my piles.

The last part there is a bit controdictory, but it make it seem as if Jim kindled this *newly found relationship* within a 6 month period, and with his now wife Sherry, and this, with... *"wasting no time", *they were married. My opinion here, well... I believe that this had been in the works for many years prior.

I'll conisder this my humor for the day.


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## LiteSpeed1

I'm sorry man, but this stuff is harder to follow than Chinese algebra.


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## 21outrage

Nice to see that you are still here Litespeed. Today... on Veterans Day... I salute Robert O. Smith, or commonly known as Bob Smith. One of two purple hearts - Korea.






I also salute all other Veterans and active duty military (with the exception of a very select few... James F. Jordan & Lawernce E. Carr, to name a couple of the "few")


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## LiteSpeed1

Just checking if this derailment had been cleaned up yet.


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## 21outrage

No derailment here... simply perserverance.


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## 21outrage

test


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## 21outrage

Again today... before I get back to addressing the Realtree Stories, and the inconsistancies that I believe remain within, I wanted to post a few more items that relate back to some items I have posted prior within. Now working on these... and have the first batch ready for your review. Starting here with 1974






and the classified documents within the daily dairies of Gerald R. Ford.


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## 21outrage

From the start... and most likely before... you will see that our then President had tight relations with Teledyne. Remember... and old employee from Continental said to me once... "we were responsible for putting the men on the moon".


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## 21outrage

This one indicates there was more than simply a business only relationship here, and the dates show... that this was a couple of weeks after the formation of what I have described as the "carrying company"...Corporate Registered Agent, Inc.


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## 21outrage

View attachment 1208736
Aug. 31, 1974... the first pink slipped documents that appear within the daily dairies... just so happen to be the direct days of my dad's final project development. (final screen printed proto-type) I have mentioned before, that these pink slips fit into the overall timeline like a glove, and I will hope to be able to show you an example of this in the future.


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## 21outrage

from Sept. 14, 1974


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## 21outrage

from Sept. 21, 1974


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## 21outrage

from Oct. 7, 1974


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## 21outrage

From Oct. 18, 1974. And it's this one soooooo very unusual wherby they even hide an award recipient's name?


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## 21outrage

The last few here... approximately 1 to 2 weeks apart.


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## 21outrage

View attachment 1208757
Then these next two... approximately 10 days before the formation of Corporate Registered Agent, Inc. (Dec. 9, 1974) the company and individuals responsible for the formation of Bowing Enterprises, Inc. (Trebark-Crumley)


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## 21outrage

and I don't like it when my attachements don't load properly.


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## 21outrage

this one from Dec. 5... 4 days before, and classified in 2009, the same time I started my research there. hmmmm


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## 21outrage

from Dec. 6, 1974... 3 days before.


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## MOC

Seriously....this is still going nowhere. This is about as odd as it comes.


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## 21outrage

That's a wrap thru the end of 1974. I'll hopefully have time to present some more into 1975, and beyond... but if you want to peak at some of these yourself... just go here.

http://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/diary/ddailydiary.asp

click on Dec. 5, 1974 for starters... and see for yourself, up close... what I presented as an attachment above.

yesterday... while performing a search there with the word "teledyne"... I found (and documented) the dates of 72 referneces to that particular word within.


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## 21outrage

Here are some more dates to see if you want, and starting in 1975. Jan. 23,24 & 29, Mar. 5,10, 12, 18 & 26, April 8,21,25,26 & 30, May 2, 16, 19 & 27, June 10, 18 & 24, July 15 & 25, Aug. 7 & 9, Sept. 8 (three days before the RO Smith Patent Stamped Recieved by the USPTO), and Sept. 17...(a few days after the same), then...Nov. 5, 12, 13 & 24, and Dec. 22.

that's a wrap on 1975. Look for the blacked out items, and the missing/covered up info - (names and addresses) before they published these items . Many of the Pink slip documents were accessed/removed in late 2009... *the same exact time that my research lead me there*. My guess about the new pink slips in 2009, is that someone went back in, and did one or more key word searchs, then acted accordingly. You Decide.


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## eaglecaps

I've decided. I don't care really, never liked that camo anyhow, just doesn't break up the human form, makes you into a gray blob, and there's no depth. Yeah I keep checkin in, it's like seeing a wrecker or an ambulance at the side of the road. If you could just publish all of this in an order and context people could actually follow I think






you may gain some believers. Write a book, your way of dealing with it here is really confusing and extremely hard to follow. Sorry man.


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## 21outrage

yes - the break up is a better concept - but this story goes to the orginal design/concept. I know you are a believer... that is why you are still here. good day.


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## Marvin

crumlee for president


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## 21outrage

self explanitory. Happy Thanksgiving All.


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## 21outrage

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor". 
Albert Einstein


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## OldeDelphArcher

Actually Jim invented Trebark in 1980 so it wasn't around in the 70's but close. 

http://www.outfittertuff.com/


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## 21outrage

Tonite... something from a personal message sent to me, and here within Archerytalk. This one from Aug. 28th, where the writer of this initial personal contact writes, and I quote...

"Hey bud, I’ve been reading your pages of info regarding the Trebark history, and with your Dad's patent. Very interesting. Out of respect, I met Crumely few times at shows to just hear what he had to say about his time in the industry, and to listen to anything he had to say that was pertinent. I’ve often referred to him as the "Godfather" of camo, which appears may not really be the case. I wish you luck in your endeavors with this, for me it’s actually very cool story to follow, although if I was in your shoes I would feel different I’m sure".

Now later within this same commuication, the now un-named author then writes...

"Please let me know if there is anything I can help you with, not sure if any of my conversations with Crumley years ago are worth anything to you or not".

Tonite I will leave with this. My answer to the comment above, being... YES they WERE, and THANK YOU.


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## 21outrage

Today... and now again, before I get back to the Realtree stories, I'd like to address some NEW information that has recently
surfaced. I finally obtained a full copy of my file from the orginal Patent Lawyer that I went to see, and this, after I discovered the dated proto-type photos, and other information regarding my dad's patent application within this story. Early on here, I beleive that I had mentioned a company called Patentec (located in VA) that was approached by the Lawyer's firm mentioned above, in efforts to obtain these old files. If I didn't mention it here previously within, it is included somewhere on the facebook page titled MYDADSCAMO. A couple of key items here to now expose. One, the dates of February 6, and February 16, 2006, whereby the USPTO mails an acknowledgement back to the Lawyer's office, indicating the receipt of my then implemented Power of Attorney form. This Power of Attorney form, signed by me on Feb. 3, 2006, and then both submitted to the Lawyer, and then to the USPTO, to finally confirm I held the rights to obtain this information.

Second, a notation (or insertion) within my file at the Lawyer's office (approx. 4 months later). This one of great new interest to me. In it, you will see, that "Vikkii" from Patentec has been identified as indicating that the USPTO had informed her, *"that the last paper that was in that file at the USPTO was from 1998", * yet... only much later, and in June of 2007, did I finally get the copy of my dad's patent application. Let it be known today, that there is *NO REFERENCE WHAT SO EVER* within the file then provided, that would appear to show the *1998* reference made. It now appears as if certain individuals or organizations have some more explaining to do. The same file notation from June 9, 2006, indicates from Patentec,
that if may take "another couple of months" (pushing this out to approx. 6 months) for the USPTO to log in, or imput the P.O.A. into the system there. The entire circumstances surrounding the 3 plus years that it realistically took me to obtain my dad's docs from the USPTO remains as very questionable at best, and this new information helps to explain the back-traking... or the holding back of specifics requested of Patentec/Vikkii regarding these previous processes, and the timeline involved with such.

Now plain and simple here...who the ____ was in that file in 1998?, and what the____ was the nature of such "last paper"?


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## 21outrage

As you will see... I always will call it, the way I see it. *Period.* I prefer to pay attention to the items that I beleive are most significant within. Like this personal message from a now un-named user (and one that will remain un-named), again from September, where the title of the message states: "Perserverence", and the simple message that follows...

"Good luck to you, Mark!"


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## 21outrage

Sorry MOC, and there's no love lost here from my end. Just kind' of getting tired of your negitive posts. One would reason with the time that has lapsed since, that if you were ever going to do anything further, that you may have already done so. i really did not expect that conversation to ever continue. The more I thought about the entire senereo, the more that I felt that the individual that you had described, just may... just may... (or may not)... hold some particular insight on the subject matter of the then times. This is based soley on your desciption of such.

I do however agree with a one part of your statements above, wherby you write... 

"I decided my uncle probably would kick my tail if I gave you his name or information"

Probably so at this point.

now all... please simply remember this, that I will stay true to ALL of the related facts within this project as it evolves. I have no other recourse. Period.


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## MOC

You're a piece of work, I'll give you that. Assume whatever you want, I didn't talk to him about this at all. Primarily because I have no idea what " this" even is.


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## 21outrage

MOC... you as well are entitled to your opinion. Look, for all... I'm not here to make any friends, but I'm also not here to make any enemies either. My only mission from the beginning here, has been to expose my story, and my story simply includes mounds of particular facts and documents. Another primary reason for which I am here today, is because there remain MANY within the industry itself, and beyond... that in my opinion, have in so far, thus both failed themselves, and the professions that they currently represent, and in turn, they have also failed the public here, and within the same context. 

Now here as I pull some of my words both typed, and sent, earlier this day, and these... to an individual that I would now place within the "and beyond" catagory mentioned just above, I write... and only in part...

"I will rely on nothing more than my own experiences, my own professional opinion, and my own gut reactions... 
to clearly help me reason with both the one's involved, and the individual processes of one's own truth
gauge along the way". 

Now "a piece of work" you write... well today I'll accept that as a compliment. I will also
end with this tonite. One of my favorite current sayings. 

* "It is what it is"*... like it or not, and this my friends... is because it is!


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## 21outrage

another fun one for the day.


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## MOC

It is what it is, indeed. Bye-bye, 21outrage. :wave:


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## eaglecaps

What did he finally do to get banned? I almost miss lookin at the wreck on the other side of the road...


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## ohiorobp

This is freaking awesome. LOL Reading it was ....was.......was....just not so easy. Glad this popped up on the new post list. It's like clue in a forum scrabble format...or something lmao.


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## curvaceous

Why is the story so amazing ? 
from the gist i got , his ol' man had an idea/design for camo , and did nothing about it , production/marketing wise.
Then when someone has brought out a idea/design along the same sort of lines , and has done the production/marketing , and made a sucess of it , all he wants to do , is B*tch and moan about someone elses good fortune .
Trying to get some sort of credit for something he is not entitled to , his dad didnt produce squat for the consumer market.


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## ohiorobp

curvaceous said:


> Why is the story so amazing ?
> from the gist i got , his ol' man had an idea/design for camo , and did nothing about it , production/marketing wise.
> Then when someone has brought out a idea/design along the same sort of lines , and has done the production/marketing , and made a sucess of it , all he wants to do , is B*tch and moan about someone elses good fortune .
> Trying to get some sort of credit for something he is not entitled to , his dad didnt produce squat for the consumer market.


Great, now I have to go reread all of it. Because I really didn't get that gist.


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## Fleahop

Well I can understand how a person can get upset about these kind of things. I am sure that it is deeper than you can imagine when you put emotion in the picture. I hope he can get things resolved to his satisfaction or put it behind him, it is obvious he has put alot of time into his research. 

There Are alot of these kind of stories in the world. Like the mechanic in 1965 that came up with a way to get 106 miles to the gallon from a junk car he had. A couple of people found out they told someone else etc then in 1969 when he had modified a few cars and was looking at the pattent process the guys in the blue suits came to the house. Some papers were signed the car was removed from the property, other cars were purchased or traded and the mechanic took his knowledge to his grave in 1998. What really happened??? Did the family get screwed? Why didn't this or doesn't this information surface today with the price of fuel at 4 dollars a gallon and the issues we are having with fossil fuel emissions?

It is all about the money don't think its not and if you really believe you have rights step on the wrong persons toes and see how long it takes for you to get spanked.

Just a thought.


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## ohiorobp

Wow, it lives....lol the thread that is. Iove the read for the fact its like a mystery drama. 
But what I don't understand is how some comments just seem to vanish and why did they vanish. I had them saved cause I wanted to read through its entirety and none of them were bad or distasteful. O'well carry on.


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## eaglecaps

Does anyone know what finally got this guy banned? Just wanna know what happened to the runaway train...


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## ohiorobp

eaglecaps said:


> Does anyone know what finally got this guy banned? Just wanna know what happened to the runaway train...


Probably someone from the site didn't like it and that was that. I never understood what was technically wrong with what he was posting? O well I'm just a peeon carry on......


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## 21outrage

Good Day All. I'm Back. Wow, with lots of new information since the term of my temporary ban. Want to see a relatively new purchase?


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## 21outrage




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## 21outrage




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## 21outrage




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## 21outrage

self expanitory.


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## 21outrage

A Manila






envelope of my dad's. Obtained by me over the Christmas Holiday about a year back, and it came to me from my older brother.


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## 21outrage

cont. from above


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