# Lets bring it up again: TILLER!



## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

It sets which limb gets more pressure applied to it.

The more + the tiller, the more weight will be on your bottom limb compared to the top while you draw.

This effect is more or less used to tune out the difference between the top and bottom limb strengths, since they can't be engineered precisely to both draw exactly the same weight. Usually manufacturers will do their best to match sets, but the bottom limb will be slightly stronger.

Here is another way to think about it:
If you draw the string exactly in the middle, both limbs should get equal pressure applied to them (let's argue this for the example's sake).
Now draw the string 4 inches below center, and see which limb starts to draw first. The reason (as far as I know) you set the tiller differently when shooting while stringwalking is to make the bow behave in a way that the arrow gets released as close to horizontal as possible (or at a slight + angle in relation to the earth).


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arsi -

Tiller allows the arrow to experience equal force from the upper and lower limbs, ie having the limbs in synch (or whatever difference the shooter deems necessary).

What keeps getting forgotten is that, nocking point, bow hand position and string finger priority also factor in. 

What changes can be expected from a tiller change? Basically the same as a nocking point change (assuming bow and and string hand remain constant). 

Viper1 out.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

^+1

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

In Simon Needham's book, "The Art of Repitition", the author describes using a Beiter rest to "accurately" determine tiller. I've never tried it, but it looks interesting.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

a side benefit of getting the tiller to the sweet spot on a particular bow/archer combination is that it will be quieter, too.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

lksseven said:


> a side benefit of getting the tiller to the sweet spot on a particular bow/archer combination is that it will be quieter, too.


And after you become more experienced, you will find you can "feel" when the tiller is out, the draw will feel smoother, and the balance of the bow leaving your hand will feel better.

Some archers try to fix that part with weights and stabilizers but getting the tiller into it's sweet spot is truly a nice thing. But generally that's quite a ways down in microtuning.

at 1220 FITA's you are probably starting to get in tune with your bow.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

So it really comes down to feel then eh? I may try to go with even tiller and see how that feels. A few people around my target at Nationals were talking about making their bow even tiller.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Generally a lower wrist grip or more ring-finger pressure will require a more neutral tiller. The opposite also holds true.

Some people tune tiller for minimum noise, others for bow movement during the draw. I'm not a very good Freestyle shooter, but I can hold my own barebow. BB requires some fairly dramatic tiller adjustment to get the bow to shoot correctly. Personally what I want is an even pressure in the bow hand coupled with the riser staying level through the draw, you would see this as a tendency for the sight to move up or down as you draw. Getting that movement eliminated should equate to a more stable hold as you break the clicker.

-Grant


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Its a combo of micro tuning (arrow flight) and feel. When you are really "in tune" with your bow and find that sweet spot, the shot will have a certain feel. Then when it's off, you will know it.. 

Finger pressure, bow hand pressure, etc, can affect "dynamic" tiller as well or tiller at full draw. nock position relative to the center of the bow string can also affect this.

dC


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

I set my tiller to have the bow hold steady on the gold. If you change tiller your riser will sit at a slightly different angle, you can feel this in your grip.


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## nifty (Jun 21, 2009)

Once upon a time I clipped some 66" limbs into my bow. At the time I was drawing a little over 30" arrow length so it was going to stack on me. I then played with the tiller until I found the nicest feeling bow hand pressure at full draw which turned out to be almost 3/8". I then clipped my 70" limbs in set at 1/4" and shot a few arrows. Then changed it to almost 3/8", same as the 66" limbs and noticed how much better the bow felt in my hand and a much smoother draw. So have set my bows to that ever since. Just a crazy way I happened to find what works for me.

Nifty

Reaching for the Sky....Not the Hoyt.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

tiller is to adjust for figure pressure offseting the bow string " center line ". think compound bow with Cam timing.

_short answer from hoyt,_

*How should I set my recurve tiller?

» Correct tiller on a recurve bow helps optimize the recovery behavior of both limbs, resulting in less vibration after the shot.

Finding the correct tiller is partly a function of string finger pressure and grip hand pressure.

Good results can be obtained with a surprisingly wide range of tiller settings depending on individual archer form variations. However, most archers can start with a 0 tiller to 1/4" positive setting.

There is no set rule for tiller due to the above mentioned archer variations- even a negative tiller may be desirable in some situations. Don't be afraid to experiment with various tiller settings- but remember, moving tiller will normally cause the nocking point to move as well. This means you will need to readjust the nocking point after a tiller change. *

_Long answer from some one with to much time on his hands.._

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzz0Hfsi2dk.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

You guys have it so easy with the weight adjustment bolts. In the old days, we had to sand the upper limb to increase tiller or sand the bottom limb on a stringwalking bow.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

FS560 said:


> You guys have it so easy with the weight adjustment bolts. In the old days, we had to sand the upper limb to increase tiller or sand the bottom limb on a stringwalking bow.


Hah!
And limb pocket adjustments are match books or business cards cut into strips and wedged into the pocket. That's how we compensated for limb twist too!

Remember sanding the limb/string notch to aid with straightening limb twist?

Thanks for the memories Jim!


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Well one time I couldnt find my allen wrenches! That was scary!


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I've played a bunch with tiller to see exactly what it does and I'll say from some very extensive testing..... not much.

Here's an image I put together years ago on what radical changes in tiller actually do to the arrow.










With that said I think there is a huge difference in arrow flight between 0 an plus 1/4". There is a point right around 1/8" positive tiller when the arrow changes bend as it passes the rest. Anything inside +1/8" and lower and the arrow bows up as it passes the rest at the peak. Anything over +3/8" all the way up to +1 1/2" and the arrow stays pretty level. I will regularly shoot a + 3/4" tiller to get better cast and sight marks with absolutely zero issue with arrow flight.

The worst place to be is right at the point where it goes one way one shot and the other the next. For me that is around +3/16" with my pretty standard finger pressure and a very good set of Samick Masters limbs. All my PSE Xpression limbs require more than 1/4". Some goof ball sets can be way out and it's tough to tell what will make them work as the nock travel is too weird with them.

In the end of the day. tiller doesn't change much in the way of arrow flight. My rule of thumb is to keep it +1/4" and up. Way to high is much better than slightly low in my experience.

Cheers,
Pete


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

In regards to the limbs moving in sync, one picture from the 2013 Fields, that stood out to me:

http://www.texasarchery.org/Photos/Field/Nationals/2013/FridayUnmarkedRound/slides/CIMG2270.JPG

I can't recall seeing such good "stop motion" side view pictures before, where the entire bow is in the shot and you can make out the string so I don't have a background to judge on, but it looks to me like the lower limb has already returned to "brace height", but the upper limb still has quite away to go. From the results it looked to me like he shot quite well. 

In regards to balance during draw (and it might be other things), but I've personally have an issue with the sight dropping down from gold during expansion at 18M, as mentioned by others in this thread (and Rick McKinney's book). I'm going to try backing out the bolt a bit at a time on the lower limb to see if that'll help.

Brent


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

OCBrent said:


> In regards to the limbs moving in sync, one picture from the 2013 Fields, that stood out to me:
> 
> http://www.texasarchery.org/Photos/Field/Nationals/2013/FridayUnmarkedRound/slides/CIMG2270.JPG
> 
> ...


Hmmm, you might get the archers comment on that photo yet............


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## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

OCBrent said:


> In regards to the limbs moving in sync, one picture from the 2013 Fields, that stood out to me:
> 
> http://www.texasarchery.org/Photos/Field/Nationals/2013/FridayUnmarkedRound/slides/CIMG2270.JPG
> 
> ...


Be careful when looking at pictures. The rolling shutter effect on some types of cameras can cause the top of the image to be at an earlier time than the bottom of the image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

For example, this picture as a single moment is impossible, but it exists due to different parts of the image being captured at slightly different times.








This can cause limbs that receive the string at the same time to look like they're out of sync, or limbs that are out of sync to look like they are in sync.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

That is why I love AT. The varying and indepth knowledge of the participants mean that most days I learn something new, and often nothing to do with archery. Being a very newb budding photographer I had no idea of the effect above. Thanks Chinese Tea.

Cheers


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Though it IS fun to imagine that our bows look like that! I feel like we are in the Matrix breaking laws of physics 

Anyways, one thing I read recently, or rather a long time ago but RE-READ last night, was that if your sight aperture has a tendency to kick up, you should increase tiller? It doesnt happen all the time for me, only rarely. Though I do notice it sometimes as im expanding, I have to wrestle to get back on target. Im going to be double checking my tune tomorrow and I may try a higher tiller, maybe 3/8".


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

If you are kicking up or down during holding - look at your stabilizer setup.


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Chinese Tea said:


> Be careful when looking at pictures. The rolling shutter effect on some types of cameras can cause the top of the image to be at an earlier time than the bottom of the image.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter
> 
> This can cause limbs that receive the string at the same time to look like they're out of sync, or limbs that are out of sync to look like they are in sync.


Thank you. I'd guess that's more likely what I'm looking at! Interesting. 

And with our Recurve limbs probably accelerating over time after Release, drawing a diagonal line across the picture wouldn't be appropriate. I guess it's back to "Feel and Sound" again. Or require archery photographers to tilt the camera sideways 

Thanks,
Brent


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Dacer said:


> If you are kicking up or down during holding - look at your stabilizer setup.


What would you suggest? Ive got a very very front heavy bow at the moment.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

hmmm interesting -


Maybe with all the weight its having a counter intuitive effect where you flinch up while you are trying to hold the weight instead of dropping. 

Take an ounce or 2 off the front and see what effect it has on your holding pattern.


- from what i have gathered from different equipment articles I've read, tiller should really be turned to the feel on your string fingers - And from my limited experience it also shifts the pressure point down my thumb pad for the more + tiller and up my hand the with negative tiller.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Maybe! But we are getting off topic now  Thanks for the responses guys!


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