# 2nd joad mail in results??



## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

have they been posted?

If not when are they going to be posted?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I was going to ask Diane Watson the same thing when I was out at the WAF in Las Vegas. I never got a chance to see her. I guess she was too busy shooting and I kept on missing her at the booth.

Sad part - the first part tournament results aren't there either. Good thing I kept a copy.

-Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

The first mail in results have been posted for a while now. They can be found at tis link http://usarchery.org/events/2453

Results for second mail in will be up by the end of the week (hopefully sooner).


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Thank you! The link to the results off of the original article was hosed. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Diane Watson said:


> (snip)
> Results for second mail in will be up by the end of the week (hopefully sooner).


Are we still going to see the results for the second half, or will it be next week? Just curious.

Thanks,
Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Sorry for the delay...the week has raced by. I am trying my best to get the results tallied and posted.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

No prob. Our primary JOAD team meeting is tomorrow, so I was highly curious. 

Thanks!
Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

same here cant wait


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

*Self posting for next year???*

I got an email from someone very experienced in these matters who indicated the JOAD clubs should all self-post next year on AT, the day after the deadline. We'd all have the results quickly because that's really important to the kids. They live in an instant information world, it is hard to explain to them what else could be more important than their scores. Obviously something.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

tjk009 said:


> I got an email from someone very experienced in these matters who indicated the JOAD clubs should all self-post next year on AT, the day after the deadline. We'd all have the results quickly because that's really important to the kids. They live in an instant information world, it is hard to explain to them what else could be more important than their scores. Obviously something.


I wonder if AT could create some sort of system where clubs could enter results and the system would compile, tabulate and sort in a easy to understand results display format...humm...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

tjk009 said:


> I got an email from someone very experienced in these matters who indicated the JOAD clubs should all self-post next year on AT, the day after the deadline. We'd all have the results quickly because that's really important to the kids. They live in an instant information world, it is hard to explain to them what else could be more important than their scores. Obviously something.


I agree but how many clubs bother to read this board?

It seems as only a few do. Look at this at the earlier thread on the first Mail in. Look how few clubs bother to enter this event. This event should have at least a couple t housand kids entering it.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

tjk009 said:


> I got an email from someone very experienced in these matters who indicated the JOAD clubs should all self-post next year on AT, the day after the deadline. We'd all have the results quickly because that's really important to the kids. They live in an instant information world, it is hard to explain to them what else could be more important than their scores. Obviously something.





Serious Fun said:


> I wonder if AT could create some sort of system where clubs could enter results and the system would compile, tabulate and sort in a easy to understand results display format...humm...





Jim C said:


> I agree but how many clubs bother to read this board?
> 
> It seems as only a few do. Look at this at the earlier thread on the first Mail in. Look how few clubs bother to enter this event. This event should have at least a couple t housand kids entering it.


Ahh...but then here's the big catch.

How do the powers that be get paid?

Now, I agree that this is an important thing to support - the Legacy fund is totally worthwhile.

But....mailing it in forces you to also pay at the same time. 

If you did it over the 'net, you would have to create some sort of check in system to pay the fees as well as enter the scores into the system.

With regards to clubs - I know (at least in Arizona) that a lot of the people involved in the clubs frequent AT. Off the top of my head, Corner Kidz, Desert Sky, Papago FITA, and Paseo Vista all have at least one (if not more) people involved actually active here on AT.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Here is what you do

say if the event is February 2011.

By February 15, each club sends in their entries and fees. ON March 1, the clubs will enter the scores of the people who by now have had their fees ascertained etc

I Know what lost alot of participation over the last few years was the amount of time it takes to get the results posted


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> Here is what you do
> 
> say if the event is February 2011.
> 
> ...


I will agree. Frankly, I wish that USA Archery would make Diane's job full time. IMHO, having Diane as a part timer isn't helping USA Archery or being an active shooter. I'm having a heck of a time being an instructor for two groups and being a staff shooter for various companies, plus trying to bring in new contracts for my "real" day job....I don't know how she does what she does now.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Hm. Duplicate entries. Odd.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

The clubs ought to be reading this forum. The leadership (National, Regional, State) can help with that. Granted this site can be pretty amusing, harsh, and funny at times. Maybe the clubs should try to have an "internet league", technology allows instant information and gratification. Posting scores on the net is a great idea. I agree with Jim posting scores a month after the cut-off kills the excitement. Some our parents feel scammed, pay money (to a good cause) and get results after Nationals? It seemed perhaps the idea early on was to have a mail-in during the winter so kids could see where they stand prior to Nationals. I looked at it as test event to inspire the kids. Now it has become something all the clubs, kids, and parents are upset about. It doesn't help me sell NAA memberships that's for sure. Right now with money tight for most folks people want to see something for their money besides empty promises and "super-sorry's".


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

*By the way....*

I offered to clear my schedule for a few hours to tally the results. From the looks of the first mail-in it didn't seem too great a task. It is my understanding someone else offered as well. Yes, it appears with Diane being NFAA Pro Chair, postal worker, shooter, and now 1/2 time National Coordinator she has her hands full. Maybe she should call out for help, or not.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

If this software could somehow be converted to a web variant, it would be possible to do the online scoring thing.

http://www.tampereenjousiampujat.net/arcmaster/index.html

-Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Individual results are posted 
http://usarchery.org/events/2453

working on team results now


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

I don't disagree that it is important for the results to be tabulated quickly but please keep in mind that the deadline for results was February 10th. I count 14 working days not 30 days as insinuated. The 5 clubs that have posted on here sent me their results pretty early, but there are many more clubs that do not get their information to me until the very last minute. Please understand, I'm not trying to make excuses just hoping to explain and ask for your patience and understanding.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Thank you! I do have an oddball question.

If I look at Male Cadet Compound, the first two entries are:

Josh
Foster
285
6
17
Flint Bowmen, Davison, MI

Adam
Stringham
285
15
15
Corner Kidz Arizona JOAD, Glendale, AZ

If I translate this properly, this translates to:

First Name
Last Name
Total Score
10 count
9 count

So - how can a person score 2 more 9's, nine less 10's, and be first? 

Just curious....

Thanks!
-Steve


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Thank you! I do have an oddball question.
> 
> If I look at Male Cadet Compound, the first two entries are:
> 
> ...


FITA 2010 Rule Book 3 Indoors
8.6.5.1 For ties occurring in all rounds, except for those ties as set out in article 8.6.5.2.
· Individuals and Teams:
- Greatest number of 10's (inner 10’s for Compound);
- Greatest number of 9's;
- After this, athletes still tied will be declared equal; but for position in the
match play chart a disk toss will decide the position of those declared
equal.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> FITA 2010 Rule Book 3 Indoors
> 8.6.5.1 For ties occurring in all rounds, except for those ties as set out in article 8.6.5.2.
> · Individuals and Teams:
> - Greatest number of 10's (inner 10’s for Compound);
> ...


Sorry, it still doesn't add up.

Adam:

15 shots for a 10. That equals 150
15 shots for a 9. That equals 135.

150+135 = 285

15 shots + 15 shots = 30 shots total.

Josh:

6 shots for a 10. That's 60
17 shots for a 9. That's 153

60 + 153 = 213. 

6 + 17 = 23. This means that 23 shots have been done for 213 points.

285 - 213 = 72 points remaining. 

You have 7 shots left (30 shots total minus 23 shots = 7 shots left)

72/7 = 10.2857 points per shot. 

I know this isn't NFAA, but where do I put my 25 dollars in for the protest? 

-Steve


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## archerydude288 (Nov 10, 2008)

Male Bowman Compound has the same issue:

James Rutherford
293
15 10
14 9

is a 284 max

As does Male Cadet Recurve:

Michael Luman
293
24 10
4 9

is a 292 max

and 

Nathan Yamaguchi
291
20 10
9 9

is a 289 max

Male Cub Compound:
Stephen Lolmaugh
294
25 10
4 9

It looks like some of them were just miscounts in 10's and 9's though


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Sorry, it still doesn't add up.
> 
> Adam:
> 
> ...


I would definately have the archer or the person that submitted the result check to see if the entries make sense in comparision to what they submitted. If an error was made in the recording of the results, it is appropriate to ask for a correction before the results are deemed official by contacting the entity in charge of the results.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I know I will check with my shop tomorrow afternoon.

-Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Let me look and double check...


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Diane Watson said:


> Let me look and double check...


No prob.

For the record, I'm really sensitive about scoring issues. There have been some issues in the past where some kids got hosed and I don't want that to happen to anyone else.

This job of compiling it isn't easy. 

'Nite all! And Diane - don't you need some bedtime? It's a tad late in your neck of the woods...

-Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

My input is correct - those were the scores that were sent in. 

We do not require score cards to be sent in with the registration.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

When are we going to stop holding this tournament? I really think it's time to figure something else out. I doubt Diane's input is wrong, and I doubt there were any misprinted numbers mailed in. :no:


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Huntmaster said:


> When are we going to stop holding this tournament? I really think it's time to figure something else out. I doubt Diane's input is wrong, and I doubt there were any misprinted numbers mailed in. :no:


At the risk of sounding like a kill joy, we did not participate this year because the event was not perceived as being a tournament. There was no special vibe and the kids shot amongst themselves....just like in league, or JOAD sessions.

Random thought. Why don't we use our Regions as a way of getting JOAD kids together. The North/South/East/West could hold a JOAD tournament and compare scores between Regions.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

she has Sean Curtin winning the Cub event with a 293-he actually is a cadet and given that he was mentioned in the write up for last year's mailin for winning the cadet I am surprised that sort of mistake was made 

He should be the winning cadet with 293-24 tens and 5 9s 

I wonder how Chris Luman could shoot a 293 with 24 tens (240) 4 nines (36)
because the remaining two hits even if 8s adds up to 16 =292. I know from other sources he shot a 293 but there is an error somewhere there


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> she has Sean Curtin winning the Cub event with a 293-he actually is a cadet and given that he was mentioned in the write up for last year's mailin for winning the cadet I am surprised that sort of mistake was made
> 
> He should be the winning cadet with 293-24 tens and 5 9s
> 
> ...


I would definately have the archer or the person that submitted the result check to see if the entries make sense in comparision to what they submitted. If an error was made in the recording of the results, it is appropriate to ask for a correction before the results are deemed official by contacting the entity in charge of the results (Diane Watson).


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> At the risk of sounding like a kill joy, we did not participate this year because the event was not perceived as being a tournament. There was no special vibe and the kids shot amongst themselves....just like in league, or JOAD sessions.
> 
> Random thought. Why don't we use our Regions as a way of getting JOAD kids together. The North/South/East/West could hold a JOAD tournament and compare scores between Regions.


I'm mixed about the region idea....

On one hand, I like it. It helps simplify things a tad.

As a parent, I'm not necessarily crazy about it. I like the fact that I can compare my 8 year old kid's score against the other kids to see where he could be competitively.

There are some things that does concern me, however.

One post that Diane mentioned is the delay in getting in the results in the first place. This, frankly, is very confusing to me. I understand that with all the USPS cutbacks being proposed that this could have some issues. But if 5 clubs who are represented here can get the results into USAA in a timely manner, why can't others?

Yes, they are paying for the opportunity to get their scores in, but on the flip side, it would behoove them to get the scores in so there isn't a problem like this again.

Hence, the online option. Of course, software has to be created...

-Steve


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

well i know for a start that the cadet male recurve first place should be Chris Luman not Michael Luman, dont know a Michael Luman :wink: 

i do know that i shot a 293, looking a the score i had to have 25 10s, 4 9s, and unforunatly a 7... that 7 will account for one shot not on there, but i must have miscounted my 10s

Chris


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Steve, 

It was stated that all clubs had till February 10th to get results in. So whether things are tallied online or not...you still would not have instant results for a mail in tournament. 

Jim, 

I understand what you are saying, but late last night I did not verify names and classes yet. Sadly, I was not thinking about the article.


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

> do know that i shot a 293, looking a the score i had to have 25 10s, 4 9s, and unforunatly a 7... that 7 will account for one shot not on there, but i must have miscounted my 10s


The score that was sent in for you is 293 24 4


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

Diane Watson said:


> The score that was sent in for you is 293 24 4


i understand but that cant be rite, im sayng that i probably miscounted 10s

Chris


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

That is the score that is turned in....293 24 4

Is this Chris Tacket that I am talking with or Chris Luman?


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

Diane Watson said:


> That is the score that is turned in....293 24 4
> 
> Is this Chris Tacket that I am talking with or Chris Luman?


chris luman. i was supposed to count 10s, it wouldnt surprise me if i missed one. im not sayng its anybody but my fault, just tryng to figure out what happend.

Chris


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> ...Random thought. Why don't we use our Regions as a way of getting JOAD kids together. The North/South/East/West could hold a JOAD tournament and compare scores between Regions.


Gabe, 
Can you elaborate on the regional idea as to how the event would be conducted and how the scores would be compared?
Thanks,


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Gabe,
> Can you elaborate on the regional idea as to how the event would be conducted and how the scores would be compared?
> Thanks,


My idea would be to use the largely dormant Regions. The North Region could conduct a JOAD tournament anywhere within its geographical area, but preferably in a central location convenient to the majority of its constituents. The same would apply to the other Regions. Each Region has an organizing body and that body would conduct the regional event. Then Diane would only have to tally results from 4 venues. Additionally, the kids get to shoot in an actual tournament, with all the fun, pressure and camaraderie associated with this type of activity. The Regions would get a needed boost, or perhaps even a reason to exist. Outside of the North Region, are any other regions conducting events?


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Great idea!!


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

i still like the idea of this shoot and apreciate the work Dian is doing. 

If you guys want I could probably write up an excel spread and give every archery shop that wants to host this shoot a copy. Then all you would have to do is enter in the kids name, division, score. Then send that to Dian by email. She then could copy past all the info on to a final page and sort the scores then post them on the web. 

sounds easy


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> My idea would be to use the largely dormant Regions. The North Region could conduct a JOAD tournament anywhere within its geographical area, but preferably in a central location convenient to the majority of its constituents. The same would apply to the other Regions. Each Region has an organizing body and that body would conduct the regional event. Then Diane would only have to tally results from 4 venues. Additionally, the kids get to shoot in an actual tournament, with all the fun, pressure and camaraderie associated with this type of activity. The Regions would get a needed boost, or perhaps even a reason to exist. Outside of the North Region, are any other regions conducting events?


The USAA and JOAD Indoors are currently held in a two or three locations in a region. One location in each region would be less accessible than the Indoor national championship are already. 

Here is an associated topic. Some have wondered if it would be possible to host regional qualifiers for ranking to be eligible to compete in a single Indoor Nationals Tournament. I guess I would like to see regional 600 rounds with the top archers in each region invited to take part in the Indoor Nationals. Then Masters, Seniors, Juniors and Cadets would then all meet and compete in a 600 round for ranking and then shooting in individual elimination rounds for the USAA championship. There could be regional teams and regional mixed team rounds. Wow.

As a side note, the Indoor Nationals Qualification round could even be a 60x18M and a 60X25M shoot. 

Also ,these qualifiers could be conducted in November and December with the Indoor National Championship taking place the first week in February an effort to complete the indoor season in February so that all can get their set up in order in March in preparation for the national outdoor season that begins in April. 

I would still conduct the JOAD Indoor Nationals as a 600 round in multiple regional locations to reinforce the individual form and performance developmental focus of JOAD Juniors, Cadets, Cub and Bowman, maybe even Yeoman.


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## flamegoddess (Mar 16, 2009)

Jim C said:


> she has Sean Curtin winning the Cub event with a 293-he actually is a cadet and given that he was mentioned in the write up for last year's mailin for winning the cadet I am surprised that sort of mistake was made
> 
> He should be the winning cadet with 293-24 tens and 5 9s
> 
> ...


Chris Luman's score was incorrectly tabulated by our JOAD coach, he miscounted the 10's, he had one more. We are in the process of fixing this.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> The USAA and JOAD Indoors are currently held in a two or three locations in a region. One location in each region would be less accessible than the Indoor national championship are already.


My idea was not so much to make a second Indoor National. The current Mail In Tournament is not intended as such. The idea was to create an opportunity for many JOAD kids to shoot a tournament. 

I believe many states have a JOAD indoor championship trying to draw kids throughout each state.

Here might be one more chance for kids to hone their competitive skills. The current Mail In Tournament did not generate any buzz in our circle. Forgive me, but it felt, well, like a fundraiser without the golf tournament or the dinner and auction.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> My idea was not so much to make a second Indoor National. The current Mail In Tournament is not intended as such. The idea was to create an opportunity for many JOAD kids to shoot a tournament.
> 
> I believe many states have a JOAD indoor championship trying to draw kids throughout each state.
> 
> Here might be one more chance for kids to hone their competitive skills. The current Mail In Tournament did not generate any buzz in our circle. Forgive me, but it felt, well, like a fundraiser without the golf tournament or the dinner and auction.


So you are suggesting that State JOAD Championship or State Championships (typically registered as Star FITA or at least USAA events) would be used to compile regional results and used to recognize regional ranking or regional and national recognition? 
This is something a group of volunteers could do in a heart beat! We, the volunteers could collect the moneys and make a donation to the Ann Hoyt Legacy Fund! When do States conduct their State Championships? We try to conduct AZ Indoor Championships in January or in February before Vegas.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> So you are suggesting that State JOAD Championship or State Championships (typically registered as Star FITA or at least USAA events) would be used to compile regional results and used to recognize regional ranking or regional and national recognition?
> This is something a group of volunteers could do in a heart beat! We, the volunteers could collect the moneys and make a donation to the Ann Hoyt Legacy Fund! When do States conduct their State Championships? We try to conduct AZ Indoor Championships in January or in February before Vegas.


Bob,

That is certainly a good idea. I wish I'd of thought of it. My thought was to create an additional shoot besides the state shoots. But given the anemic condition of many state JOAD championships, perhaps having USA Archery getting behind state shoots would be a better fit.

I like the idea of using existing shoots. Whatever assistance, or promotion USA Archery can give, will build these tournaments into healthier events. 

Gabe


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Bob,
> 
> That is certainly a good idea. I wish I'd of thought of it. My thought was to create an additional shoot besides the state shoots. But given the anemic condition of many state JOAD championships, perhaps having USA Archery getting behind state shoots would be a better fit.
> 
> ...


Have folks heard of MICA? A COPARCO event. http://www.coparco.org/MICA/2010/index.htm We could do this on State level for 2011 just like Al Wills coordinates MICA from western Canada. Could award certificates be made available on line for the winners to print themselves? I would assume that regional coordinators could be appointed to facilitate and gather results. What might be fun is to complies average scores on a regional basis too. Participation statistics by category would be interesting also. Helping with a USA JOAD MICA would be a great way to develop future USAA JOAD Committee members by identifying those that have the skills, determination and know how to support JOAD on a national level. Any takers?

Gabe, by adding the USAA JOAD MICA to existing events, we give tournament directors the opprotunity to provide more value to their events.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Slicing and dicing the data should not be an issue. The challenge is to create, or build upon events. 

Does every state have an indoor JOAD championship?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Slicing and dicing the data should not be an issue. The challenge is to create, or build upon events.
> 
> Does every state have an indoor JOAD championship?


Definitely not since there are states with no USAA State Association and no active State JOAD Coordinator. Likely some State Indoor Championships and JOAD Indoor State Championships take place after Indoor and JOAD Indoor Nationals. Would we insist on tournaments taking place on January and results in by mid February?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> My idea would be to use the largely dormant Regions. The North Region could conduct a JOAD tournament anywhere within its geographical area, but preferably in a central location convenient to the majority of its constituents. The same would apply to the other Regions. Each Region has an organizing body and that body would conduct the regional event. Then Diane would only have to tally results from 4 venues. Additionally, the kids get to shoot in an actual tournament, with all the fun, pressure and camaraderie associated with this type of activity. The Regions would get a needed boost, or perhaps even a reason to exist. Outside of the North Region, are any other regions conducting events?


That is what the NAA Indoor does-we are traveling 5 hours to our nearest location-Lansing for the NAA regional and national tournament. The idea of a mail in is to have kids experience a national comparison without having to travel great distances


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> That is what the NAA Indoor does-we are traveling 5 hours to our nearest location-Lansing for the NAA regional and national tournament. The idea of a mail in is to have kids experience a national comparison without having to travel great distances


I am thinking that the Gabe/Bob USAA JOAD MICA would be a compilaiton of state level tournaments and perhaps before Indoor and JOAD Indoor Nationals and be something in addition to the mail in or take over mail in. I know that many dont like mail in but many do. I would think that Gabe/Bob could be on a regional state level, ie a North CA, Central CA and South CA tournaments. Perhaps on a major metro area level basis. I am just rambling now...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

the main things that need to happen are

1) more joad coaches pushing this mail in-it goes to a good cause

2) generally, the kids who shoot the best in the mail in are the same kids who place highly in the major tournaments but it allows kids to compete "nationally" without the travel and intimidation factors

3) get the results done much faster-perhaps by having a board where the coaches post the scores 

4) give something a bit more substantive than certificates -It matters not to me-I recycle half the medals I get these days but I have heard people say that 10 bucks is too much for a certificate.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> the main things that need to happen are
> 
> 1) more joad coaches pushing this mail in-it goes to a good cause
> 
> ...


One of the coolest things I got as an archery trophy was a cowbell.

Yes, a cowbell. It was way neater than your typical award. 

Cool awards like that are unique, very well received, and are rather inexpensive to produce and distribute.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Cool idea.


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## toxicolosopher (Mar 1, 2010)

Dear lord. This is absurdist comedy, as the official of an alleged governing archery body argues the misposted score of a month-old tournament with one of its participants. 

It is absolutely clear that USA Archery is completely incompetent. They cannot compute scores, much less post them online. The CEO declares a new age of "improved communications," and after three posts on her blog, goes utterly silent. 

Calling USA Archery is an exercise in futility, as there is clearly nobody manning the phones. 

And, how many medals did we take home in the last Olympics with our vaunted "Christ only" Head Coach?

Oh, yeah. Nevermind.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

toxicolosopher said:


> Dear lord. This is absurdist comedy, as the official of an alleged governing archery body argues the misposted score of a month-old tournament with one of its participants.
> 
> It is absolutely clear that USA Archery is completely incompetent. They cannot compute scores, much less post them online. The CEO declares a new age of "improved communications," and after three posts on her blog, goes utterly silent.
> 
> ...




blank profile

shocking


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> blank profile
> 
> shocking


No kidding.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> No kidding.


I checked the clown's other two posts. Kisik bashing with a minor in NAA hate.. Maybe someone who washed out of the RA or JDT program or wasn't selected. I don't blindly support the NAA in everything they do (most of you remember my comments about the new coaching certification-money grab and my rips of TP) but at least everyone knows who I am. I get so tired of people hiding behind blank profiles and bashing Coach Lee, the NAA, John Magera, GT, etc.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> I checked the clown's other two posts. Kisik bashing with a minor in NAA hate.. Maybe someone who washed out of the RA or JDT program or wasn't selected. I don't blindly support the NAA in everything they do (most of you remember my comments about the new coaching certification-money grab and my rips of TP) but at least everyone knows who I am. I get so tired of people hiding behind blank profiles and bashing Coach Lee, the NAA, John Magera, GT, etc.


Hehe...you and I are in a similar boat. I don't hide behind things either, nor do I blindly support everything the NAA does....heck, everyone knows how I feel USA Archery markets themselves.

I think the biggest difference is that we voice our concerns because we are acutely and genuinely worried about the state of affairs.

-Steve


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Anyway, back to the previous topic, I love the idea of encouraging regional shoots PLUS the existing shoots! Especially nice for kids in states without state shoots.

By the way, did you all know there was a FITA mail-in tournament? That would have been cool to enter! They had it on the FITA website, but I didn't find out about it until it was too late. I'll post on AT if I see it again next year. :wink:


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

ROTFL - That picture of the troll spray. I had to save it for future use.


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## toxicolosopher (Mar 1, 2010)

Hehe. That troll spray was funny. Thing is, I'm not a troll. I've been involved in competitive archery for nearly a decade, and for that reason I seek anonymity, not for myself but for others.

Unfortunately, the truth hurts. And the truth of the matter is that archery is governed by a deeply dysfunctional organization, and it is killing the sport that I love. Perhaps nobody else will say this; I have certainly seen little direct criticism.

But over the past decade I have watched competitive archery's ongoing erosion, and there is no reason for it except for the governing body's inability to competently administer the sport, from promotion to organization to -- at this point -- even the simple ability to post scores without confusion and error.

Look at the coverage archery has received -- go ahead, Google it up. What you will find is stories about the Head Coach employing "brain control technology" and proselytizing/baptising Olympic team members, coupled with mentions about our country's abysmal failure at the Olympics.

Don't blame this on "the media." Blame it on USA Archery's inability to craft and promote a positive image for the sport. Blame it on whatever it is that is going on in that organization that is prohibiting it from doing its job, even on a basic level. 

But don't blame it on someone who honestly posts his opinions in an open discussion group.


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

*Troll-Be-Gone*



toxicolosopher said:


> Hehe. That troll spray was funny. Thing is, I'm not a troll. I've been involved in competitive archery for nearly a decade, and for that reason I seek anonymity, not for myself but for others.
> 
> Unfortunately, the truth hurts. And the truth of the matter is that archery is governed by a deeply dysfunctional organization, and it is killing the sport that I love. Perhaps nobody else will say this; I have certainly seen little direct criticism.
> 
> ...


Gosh, I love this spray!










Dave Gilbert


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## newyorkarcher (May 26, 2008)

im sure this guy says the same things about his state and local groups. we all have guys like this they complain and dont do any thing to help us out .sounds like a New Yorker ,,lol


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

toxicolosopher said:


> Look at the coverage archery has received -- go ahead, Google it up. What you will find is stories about the Head Coach employing "brain control technology" and proselytizing/baptising Olympic team members, coupled with mentions about our country's abysmal failure at the Olympics.


Okay, I did google it. On the Google page, I got USAA, Mathews, Archery Warehouse (?), Hoyt, Bowtech, Wikipedia, Martin and then PSE in that order. When I clicked on "News Results for Archery" I got a story about a kid in the Youth division at Vegas who got a 598, a story about a neighborhood where a couple of cats were being shot by "graphite" arrows, and then some short clips about upcoming events. 

Just thought I'd let you know.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

*scoring template*

I spoke briefly with our scoring guru who indicated that a template might be easy to make. It could have formula's to sort the highest score so data entry would be easier. The coaches could be provided a password and would be responsible for entering scores. Some of our shooters posted scores early in the time period, others at the last minute. We had several shooters improve their scores and those could be updated right up until the deadline. Having scores available during the competition is a great incentive. The paper trail can be submitted by PDF as back up. 

The challenge is figuring where to host the program, and if the coaches are technology challenged the kids certainly are not. I will take a look at the other program noted as well, this is problem that can be fixed with available technology if we can just embrace it. Perhaps the techno's from each club can brainstorm. I'd actually like to see a virtual league between all the clubs operating year round. The big clubs have a built-in advantage with kids competing against each other. This would really help those more isolated who can't afford to travel and need inspiration.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

tjk009 said:


> I spoke briefly with our scoring guru who indicated that a template might be easy to make. It could have formula's to sort the highest score so data entry would be easier. The coaches could be provided a password and would be responsible for entering scores. Some of our shooters posted scores early in the time period, others at the last minute. We had several shooters improve their scores and those could be updated right up until the deadline. Having scores available during the competition is a great incentive. The paper trail can be submitted by PDF as back up.
> 
> The challenge is figuring where to host the program, and if the coaches are technology challenged the kids certainly are not. I will take a look at the other program noted as well, this is problem that can be fixed with available technology if we can just embrace it. Perhaps the techno's from each club can brainstorm. I'd actually like to see a virtual league between all the clubs operating year round. The big clubs have a built-in advantage with kids competing against each other. This would really help those more isolated who can't afford to travel and need inspiration.


Its do able, have a look at this game that NADA created http://www.worldarcherycenter.com/Archery_Game.htm I think the biggest challenge is not the hosting space on the internet or the actual code (all though, some one will have to pay the software programmer and some one will need to dedidate the space) but the instruction to the programmer as the programmer is likey not versed in FITA target archery. But with some back and forth, it can happen for sure. I have found that writing down instructions for a programmer to be very challenging. Tournament results teams automatically do things we take for granted until they are missed.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

*let's keep it simple*

All we really need is an excel spreadsheet that can be accessed by coaches to enter scores. Bells and whistles and pretty colors just make things difficult. Looked at both the programs, lots of work it seems. Now is the time for the "geek squad" to chime in. What is the simplest, easiest way to have an on-line spreadsheet?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

tjk009 said:


> What is the simplest, easiest way to have an on-line spreadsheet?


shared google docs


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

and that works how?


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Sorry to bring this back up. I haven't seen the write-up for it. Did I miss something, or was there no intent to have one?

Thanks.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Sighting In said:


> Sorry to bring this back up. I haven't seen the write-up for it. Did I miss something, or was there no intent to have one?
> Thanks.


I would contant Anthony Bartkowski, the author of the first mailin article.


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Agree -- I'd love to know how many participated, and how much money was raised!

Hope they can fix any incorrect scores first, though. :teeth:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

archerymom2 said:


> Agree -- I'd love to know how many participated, and how much money was raised!
> 
> Hope they can fix any incorrect scores first, though. :teeth:


Another person to contact is the USAA National JOAD Coordinator, Diane Watson.


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

*Question*

The mail in tournament can be shot and turned in anytime over a month. Do clubs actually schedule one day to shoot and score for this tournament, or do they send in the best score for an individual for the month?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The club I teach at uses our normal scheduled scoring runs to submit for the mail in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> The club I teach at uses our normal scheduled scoring runs to submit for the mail in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So if your JOAD club scores every week would you pick a night for scoring the mail in tournament or just send in the best of four scores for an individual (assuming the individual came in and scored each week of the month)?

I am honestly wondering.

Thanks,
Bob


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

BobCo19-65 said:


> So if your JOAD club scores every week would you pick a night for scoring the mail in tournament or just send in the best of four scores for an individual (assuming the individual came in and scored each week of the month)?
> 
> I am honestly wondering.
> 
> ...


Here is the information about the late 2009, early 2010 USAA JOAD Mail in including rules and results links.
http://usarchery.org/events/2453

The prescribed late 2009/early 2010 conditions asked for at least three to take part and double score and include a club leader. May I suggest contacting Diane Watson with any suggestions for future JOAD Mail ins. There is always the potential for rules changes for future events. All we can do now is to speculate as to what the future rules will be.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

BobCo19-65 said:


> So if your JOAD club scores every week would you pick a night for scoring the mail in tournament or just send in the best of four scores for an individual (assuming the individual came in and scored each week of the month)?
> 
> I am honestly wondering.
> 
> ...


Since our club schedule scores once a month (sometimes twice during the summer months), we submit what we shoot on that scheduled day. Since we normally don't shoot multiple times a month when the mail in tournament occurs, that's what we send in. 

Sorry I can't help you more about that.

-Steve


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

The rules allowed archers to send in their highest score from the eligible period. There was no requirement that they only score once (unlike indoor nationals, where -- if you shoot more than one -- your first competition venue is the one that counts).

I know some clubs that actually added days during the week so their archers could score multiple times per week, resulting in 10+ scores to choose from! 

Our club meets once a week -- archers could score each week if they wanted, and send the best score.

Unlike other tournaments, the mail-in was (for us anyway) all about keeping interest and participation high during the long cold indoor months! If you don't live in a warm-weather state, it can be hard to stay motivated during the winter.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Please comment on having two session. One late in the year, one early before the Indoor Nationals. Was it worthwhile or does it dilute the mail ins focus? Should there be a spring, summer and fall mail in?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

archerymom2 said:


> The rules allowed archers to send in their highest score from the eligible period. There was no requirement that they only score once (unlike indoor nationals, where -- if you shoot more than one -- your first competition venue is the one that counts).
> 
> I know some clubs that actually added days during the week so their archers could score multiple times per week, resulting in 10+ scores to choose from!
> 
> ...


agreed,

when I first started running CJO the Mail in seemed to have two purposes for the kids and one for the clubs

1) get kids ready for nationals-both in terms of scoring alot and 2) giving them an Idea where they stood, especially kids from small clubs who didn't have a chance to shoot in big state or regional area type championships

for the clubs-make money. most club leaders told me that attendance would pick up during the mail in period.

we push that mail in and since I have a private range that can accommodate up to about 20 or so archers (complete with a digital timing system now) we had our two weekly sessions at the national guard armory as well as weekend sessions. During the Xmas holidays our club doesn't meet at the armory but we would have scoring sessions at our home range--same with MLKjr day. 

we also did stuff like give free sessions (at the armory-we don't charge at my range since I don't have to pay a National Guardsmen rent and security) for those who beat their scores or made Olympian etc.

we had almost 100% participation in both mail ins


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> Please comment on having two session. One late in the year, one early before the Indoor Nationals. Was it worthwhile or does it dilute the mail ins focus? Should there be a spring, summer and fall mail in?


I think one that runs during Xmas break through about the MLKjr holiday would be ideal. after march no one in my club wants to shoot indoors


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

archerymom2 said:


> The rules allowed archers to send in their highest score from the eligible period. There was no requirement that they only score once (unlike indoor nationals, where -- if you shoot more than one -- your first competition venue is the one that counts).
> 
> I know some clubs that actually added days during the week so their archers could score multiple times per week, resulting in 10+ scores to choose from!
> 
> ...



Thanks everyone, that makes an aweful lot of sense to me.

Bob


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