# Official ibo to reinhart!!



## BrentW

Just got word IBO got a 5 year contract with Reinhart targets!!


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## BROX

Yeap that's what I heard


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## MentalMisfit

So what does that mean for any local clubs that put on IBO shoots they have to switch to different targets?


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## 3D Pinwheeler

MentalMisfit said:


> So what does that mean for any local clubs that put on IBO shoots they have to switch to different targets?


No, never had to shoot mckenzie at local to be a ibo sanctioned event.


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## mhill

Do you think it will make their prices skyrocket?


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## milkman38

i shouldn't change anything, clubs for q's can run any targets they want


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## darton3d

The Pennsylvania state IBO championships this year was mostly R & W targets. Apparently they couldn't care less what local clubs use for qualifiers or state championships.


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## Bowtech n ROSS

I dont want to admit it yet. Hello ASA!


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## Archerywarrior

when asa is closer i will shoot it,till then the econmy sucks and i cant afford to travel to the asa events. so guess i will be shootin rineharts.


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## BROX

Bowtech n ROSS said:


> I dont want to admit it yet. Hello ASA!


your young and have the money to do that


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## bow-legged

Im thinking RC car racing!


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## baird794

where did u get info, i hear alot of things but is it on the ibo website? 
Thanks


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## milkman38

i've met alot of great guys over the years shooting ibo nats. that b pretty sad to give that part up just cause i don't like a target. remember why u enjoy shooting 3d, i bet u don't have shooting a mckeize on top of your list,


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## Fire Archer

Wonder why the members that make the IBO dont ever get to vote on any decisions? I would rather pay another $20-$25 on the entry fee before shooting Rineharts. Rinehart has a better foam composition but McKenzie is much better looking target. Rineharts are only 2/3 the size of the animal it represents.


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## S4 300-60

Can anyone with a negative comment humor me with an intelligent response? Why would changing target manufacturers cause you to quit shooting IBO? It's the same game.....I for one have no problem with the change. I actually support it. Why would you walk away due to the target manufacturer changing?


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## treeman65

field archery is looking better and better I had a blast with whatr field shoots i went to this year i just wish there more national shoots
NOW IBO NEEDS TO START A KNOWN DISTANCE CLASS


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## milkman38

i own a pile of both alot of rineharts are much larger than mckenzes, just got to look at them close 4 diff sizes of deer, i was told that entry fee would have went up 15 buck just to keep the targets


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## gobblemg

S4 300-60 said:


> Can anyone with a negative comment humor me with an intelligent response? Why would changing target manufacturers cause you to quit shooting IBO? It's the same game.....I for one have no problem with the change. I actually support it. Why would you walk away due to the target manufacturer changing?


I agree.


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## BROX

baird794 said:


> where did u get info, i hear alot of things but is it on the ibo website?
> Thanks


It will be announced


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## bow-legged

It was $80000.00 difference.


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## Supermag1

S4 300-60 said:


> Can anyone with a negative comment humor me with an intelligent response? Why would changing target manufacturers cause you to quit shooting IBO? It's the same game.....I for one have no problem with the change. I actually support it. Why would you walk away due to the target manufacturer changing?


I agree completely. I think it's more of the usual AT bashing and whining about IBO.


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## Beentown

Yep Rhineharts are better targets anyway. It is the exact same game. Actually a bit of change is a good thing.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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## Bowtech n ROSS

I was a full supporter of ibo. For me the realistic targets were the fun part. Rinehart doesn't do that for me. Plus why would i try to learn all new targets when i can drive another couple hours and shoot the targets i like.


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## bow-legged

Cant argue with that!


Bowtech n ROSS said:


> I was a full supporter of ibo. For me the realistic targets were the fun part. Rinehart doesn't do that for me. Plus why would i try to learn all new targets when i can drive another couple hours and shoot the targets i like.


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## Daniel Boone

Price of Mckensies just got cheap in northern states

Anyone interested in selling there targets contact Art Brown. ABOK here at AT. Can pm me for a phone number.

He may very purchase them for discounted price now.


DB


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## Daniel Boone

Beentown said:


> Yep Rhineharts are better targets anyway. It is the exact same game. Actually a bit of change is a good thing.
> 
> Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


Just to inform you the cores dont last as long in Rhinharts. My buddy repairs targets all across the US.
Older Rhineharts did hold up well but the newer one dont. 
DB


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## bhtr3d

Bowtech n ROSS said:


> I was a full supporter of ibo. For me the realistic targets were the fun part. Rinehart doesn't do that for me. Plus why would i try to learn all new targets when i can drive another couple hours and shoot the targets i like.


You mean to tell me jackalopes are not real? NO WAY


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## vabowdog

I'm tickled pink!!!!!!! I love Rinehardts and now I get to shoot both....and to be really honest the last two major shoots I've been to Mckenzies looked like crap...heads not fitting,the molding lines not meeting together...anybody can do a better job than Mckenzie......good for IBO 


Dewayne


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## bhtr3d

Just a question.....Do you think that the STC will have even lower numbers now?


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## hoyt316

I would say for the last 8 or 9 years I have shot the I.B.O. over 30 shoots most national shoots.I will not drive to a shoot within a hour of me to shoot Rhineharts.So that will tell you how many I.B.O. shoots I will go to. I have a a.s.a. shoot right here within 2 hours and have never shot it ! But looks like I'm going to be a new member with the A.S.A ! X I.B.O shooter!


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## bandit69

I could not be happier with IBO going to Rhinehart targets. Most clubs where I shoot use them because they are just flat out more durable. People can say what they want but I have seen new targets shot side by side at indoor ranges and it is simple to see the difference. And another thing is this will bite the shooters who gap midsections for yardage.


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## klshooter

This is absurd! I wonder who pockets the $80000 u cant tell me they couldnt get Mckenzies for the old contract i talk to people, I guess IBO was on the brink of going out of buisness and couldnt make it with out makin the change I guess il just hit asa events I dont have a spare $5000 layin around to get rineharts to practice on


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## haydenhunter

I co-own and operate Sand Creek Archery in Southern Indiana. We are an IBO commercial range and have always used McKenzie targets.......until 2 months ago. The last couple years McKenzie has been putting out some real crap. We had to either switch to Rineharts or go out of business. We sold all our McKenzie Targets and bought all new Rineharts. Below is a picture that shows a brand new McKenzie Core with 79 shots and a brand new Rinehart with 113 shots in it. Pretty cut and dry right there. Yes Rinehart is much more initial cost to purchase the target but MUCH cheaper per shot. I hope the IBO has indeed made the switch to a quality target such as Rinehart.


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## hoytxcutter

darton3d said:


> The Pennsylvania state IBO championships this year was mostly R & W targets. Apparently they couldn't care less what local clubs use for qualifiers or state championships.


 No they were not mostly R&W targets. We only own 10 of them. The other 20 were McKenzie targets.


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## kward598

I like either, was thinking now we could have the correct scoring rings for each event on the respective targets? No more question about where they meet?


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## fullrut05

I am co-owner of Sand Creek Archery and I hope that this is true. Our McKenzies were costing us $7.00 per shooter to maintain this year. The McKenzie cores are 100% junk and aren't even comparible to Rhineharts. When we first started our range we went with Mckenzies because they were cheaper than Rhineharts. Well in the end we could have bought several ranges of Rhineharts for what we had in replacing our McKenzie cores. If this is true I am glad that the IBO switched to a Quality Target.


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## darton3d

_No they were not mostly R&W targets. We only own 10 of them. The other 20 were McKenzie targets. _

Not going to argue with you, but I would swear there were more than 10. Doesn't really matter, we won't be back if it is there next year. Sorry, but it just wasn't worth the drive.


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## J Whittington

treeman65 said:


> field archery is looking better and better I had a blast with whatr field shoots i went to this year i just wish there more national shoots
> NOW IBO NEEDS TO START A KNOWN DISTANCE CLASS


james come stay with us shoot asa


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## xringbob

darton3d said:


> _No they were not mostly R&W targets. We only own 10 of them. The other 20 were McKenzie targets. _
> 
> Not going to argue with you, but I would swear there were more than 10. Doesn't really matter, we won't be back if it is there next year. Sorry, but it just wasn't worth the drive.


I feel the same way we drove 4 1/2 hours to shoot r&w targets big let down wont make that same mistake next year.


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## kbach

I am a member of a club in eastern pa for the past 12 years . We have enough targets to put out full 40 target courses of either rineharts or mckenzies ,and we almost always put out the rineharts. Rinehart targets cost much less to shoot, they give clubs a chance to make a profit without charging an exorbitant shooter's fee. This benefits all shooters !


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## J Whittington

im willing to bet you a meal at Mcdonalds it will decrease!



bhtr3d said:


> Just a question.....Do you think that the STC will have even lower numbers now?


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## Polkat9000

So bottom line if your an ibo club do you have to use rinehart to do a qaulifier or ibo st champonship ?????????????????????????????


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## tweeter196

Polkat9000 said:


> So bottom line if your an ibo club do you have to use rinehart to do a qaulifier or ibo st champonship ?????????????????????????????


No

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## J Whittington

i fear this change may hurt 3D archery, because its going to make the division between asa (southern) and ibo (northern) greater than what it already is


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## schmel_me

bow-legged said:


> Im thinking RC car racing!



woot woot


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## mcfd-1229

I would like to the target price come down. I would like to buy some but who can afford 500 bucks for one target. I was a rinehart hater to till we shot them over the winter now im looking forward to them


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## outbackarcher

If all these shooters come to the ASA that say they are we will welcome them with open arms. However it will be interesting to see how the ASA handles the increased numbers. I think that they are about at their max with the number of shooters they can handle effectively.


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## Fire Archer

Who exactly pays for the targets? Is it IBO or the hosting club? Or does the money come from membership and entry fees?


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## outbackarcher

haydenhunter said:


> I co-own and operate Sand Creek Archery in Southern Indiana. We are an IBO commercial range and have always used McKenzie targets.......until 2 months ago. The last couple years McKenzie has been putting out some real crap. We had to either switch to Rineharts or go out of business. We sold all our McKenzie Targets and bought all new Rineharts. Below is a picture that shows a brand new McKenzie Core with 79 shots and a brand new Rinehart with 113 shots in it. Pretty cut and dry right there. Yes Rinehart is much more initial cost to purchase the target but MUCH cheaper per shot. I hope the IBO has indeed made the switch to a quality target such as Rinehart.


I am not buying into this one bit. Calling bs.


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## hoytxcutter

darton3d said:


> _No they were not mostly R&W targets. We only own 10 of them. The other 20 were McKenzie targets. _
> 
> Not going to argue with you, but I would swear there were more than 10. Doesn't really matter, we won't be back if it is there next year. Sorry, but it just wasn't worth the drive.


It will be there again next year.


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## milkman38

hosting club for triple crown and ibo for worlds


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## schmel_me

xringbob said:


> I feel the same way we drove 4 1/2 hours to shoot r&w targets big let down wont make that same mistake next year.




This is B.S and happened to me this year twice. Needless to say im not going back.


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## Fire Archer

outbackarcher said:


> I am not buying into this one bit. Calling bs.


Me either. It may have been shot 113 times on the other side but not the one shown.


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## hrtlnd164

outbackarcher said:


> If all these shooters come to the ASA that say they are we will welcome them with open arms. However it will be interesting to see how the ASA handles the increased numbers. I think that they are about at their max with the number of shooters they can handle effectively.


Well Larry , I hope there is room for at least 1 more. Already looking at the ASA schedule. This target decision is just one of many reasons to make the ASA change for myself. Everyone needs to decide what their preferences are. I won't shoot a local 1/2 hour away if it has Rhineharts. Some will remain with the IBO and some will leave, I bet it will hurt attendance more than some are thinking though..


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## Garceau

I said this was happening back in June and people looked at me like I was green.


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## fullrut05

Its Official! Its on the IBO Site. WOO HOO!!!!!! GO RHINEHART


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## kw1

The ibo is a non-profit org.


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## fullrut05

outbackarcher said:


> I am not buying into this one bit. Calling bs.


Well I for one am glad your opinion means nothing. Looks like ours did:wink:. However our opinion on how crappy the McKenzie targets are aren't what led to the Switch. It was the cold hard facts we presented them. That picture was sent to the IBO with facts supporting it and several other facts explaining how McKenzie has failed to make a quality target. Its a done deal now. You guys might as well get used to shooting Rhineharts.:wink:


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## 1ryanman

This is going to be a big problem with local clubs here in eastern panhandle of WV we all have Mckenzies ,i bet our club has at least 10 grand in Mckenzies and alot of new ones that aint even shot yet now we practice on Mckenzies all yr then go to national and world shoots and have to judge Rhineharts i say this will kill the IBO now if a loocal club wants to change to Rhineharts it will be very costly to them...JUST MY 2 CENTS


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## Garceau

> June 5th, 2012, 09:35 PM #22 Garceau
> 
> They will be switching to Rhinehard - mark my words..... the deal I heard Rhinehart offered them (just what I heard, no viable sources) is way too good to pass up.


Im never right...this feels good


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## J Whittington

kw1 said:


> The ibo is a non-profit org.


im calling bull shiiiiiiit onm this one . legally they may be, but in reality nope but dont care either folks gotta make a livin


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## PAFD ARCHER

bow-legged said:


> Im thinking RC car racing!


me too sounds good to me lol


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## Hoyt_em

S4 300-60 said:


> Can anyone with a negative comment humor me with an intelligent response? Why would changing target manufacturers cause you to quit shooting IBO? It's the same game.....I for one have no problem with the change. I actually support it. Why would you walk away due to the target manufacturer changing?


:bravo:

It's not like there are strictly mckenzie targets in this area, and I have been to shoots in other states only to see a mix also. 

Congrats to Rinehart...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HokieArcher

outbackarcher said:


> I am not buying into this one bit. Calling bs.



Come on Larry, don't you know the Rinehart target was shot on the other side!! HAHAHA

It is hard to believe that target has been shot over 100 times, they must have some incredible foam.


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## Fire Archer

HokieArcher said:


> Come on Larry, don't you know the Rinehart target was shot on the other side!! HAHAHA
> 
> It is hard to believe that target has been shot over 100 times, they must have some incredible foam.


Definitely shot on the other side or maybe shot AT 113 times.


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## TylerTexas

Well would ya look at that??!!! No problems with either brand, long's I get to flip sticks and chase chicks. Woooo


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## outbackarcher

fullrut05 said:


> Well I for one am glad your opinion means nothing. Looks like ours did:wink:. However our opinion on how crappy the McKenzie targets are aren't what led to the Switch. It was the cold hard facts we presented them. That picture was sent to the IBO with facts supporting it and several other facts explaining how McKenzie has failed to make a quality target. Its a done deal now. You guys might as well get used to shooting Rhineharts.:wink:


Your right my opinion means nothing to those that don't know me. However I am the sole owner not co-owner of a 3-D archery range. I used to have both McKenzie and Rhinehart targets. I sold all of my rhineharts because they hurt my shoot attendance (now wish I would have kept a few). McKenzie quality has went down hill since Delta bought them and the rhineharts do last longer. However the picture you showed is not a good representation of the difference between the targets if they are set at the same distance and the correct side of the rhinehart is shown.


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## darton3d

Don't know if anyone remembers but years ago the ASA shot Rinehart targets. They survived. IBO was shooting McKenzie targets and ASA was Rinehart targets. Or maybe it was the other way around, which ever, they each shot a different manufacturer's target. 
We have both at our club, along with a few R & W targets. The older Rinehart targets held up much better than the new ones. Two years ago we bought the new McKenzie XT targets and they are holding up as well as the newer Rinehart targets. However we bought more of the McKenzie XT targets this year and they bite! The sections fit together horribly, don't know what happened to their quality control, but it is definitely lacking. And with the price increase this year on McKenzie targets they lost a big competitive edge. I like the Rinehart targets, as long as it isn't any of those frogs or cobras or miniature bears!


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## baird794

fullrut05 said:


> Well I for one am glad your opinion means nothing. Looks like ours did:wink:. However our opinion on how crappy the McKenzie targets are aren't what led to the Switch. It was the cold hard facts we presented them. That picture was sent to the IBO with facts supporting it and several other facts explaining how McKenzie has failed to make a quality target. Its a done deal now. You guys might as well get used to shooting Rhineharts.:wink:


u tell em computer warrior, u the man hahahaha

i personally don't care what we shoot but the mckenzie's do look better. it is what it is


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## bowtecchip

I say fk it if you can shoot it dont matter what we shoot. Its like starting on an even playing field stop being sush big babies. People need too man up this sight has turned 
into a soap opra its an archery sight people grow a set shut up and bring it. we all got the same amount of time too start judging targets.


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## nitroteam

baird794 said:


> where did u get info, i hear alot of things but is it on the ibo website?
> Thanks


It's on there Facebook page and it says national and worlds shoots will be reinhart nothing about clubs etc guess thats still up for grabs. 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## deerboy

It's on their web site too.
http://www.ibo.net/


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## haydenhunter

Fire Archer said:


> Me either. It may have been shot 113 times on the other side but not the one shown.


Youre wrong.


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## tweeter196

I look forward to next year. The end of the ibo season is always a bit of a bummer. Thank God deer season isn't to far off. I don't shoot rineharts much. Even started a small personal selection of my own McKenzies. But I will still enjoy shooting them in my yard. Just as I will enjoy shooting rineharts at the national shoots next year. Besides I already planned on making some big changes of my own next year so it doesn't really phase me what.targets we shoot.

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## Droptine Archer

baird794 said:


> where did u get info, i hear alot of things but is it on the ibo website?
> Thanks


IBO posted it on Facebook. 


I really don't like Rinehart targets, but I will still continue to shoot IBO shoots. I will shoot ASA too, so I guess I'll have to practice both ways......


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## HardcoreArchery

I really think that the IBO made a big mistake, but good ol Ken only cares about lining his pockets and could care less about what any of the shooters think. I wonder how the pros feel about having to go out and buy all new targets


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## outbackarcher

HardcoreArchery said:


> I really think that the IBO made a big mistake, but good ol Ken only cares about lining his pockets and could care less about what any of the shooters think. I wonder how the pros feel about having to go out and buy all new targets


Levi is sponsored by Rhinehart so I say he is good with it. Supposedly they got a killer offer and couldn't turn it down. Can't blame them I don't guess.


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## Outback Man

baird794 said:


> where did u get info, i hear alot of things but is it on the ibo website?
> Thanks


Posted on their Facebook page...


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## BROX

HardcoreArchery said:


> I really think that the IBO made a big mistake, but good ol Ken only cares about lining his pockets and could care less about what any of the shooters think. I wonder how the pros feel about having to go out and buy all new targets


Ken is no longer the pres so it doesn't have anything to do with him


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## carlosii

Garceau said:


> I said this was happening back in June and people looked at me like I was green.


i never thought you looked green. a little red down there at metropolis perhaps, but not green. :wink:


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## HardcoreArchery

outbackarcher said:


> Levi is sponsored by Rhinehart so I say he is good with it. Supposedly they got a killer offer and couldn't turn it down. Can't blame them I don't guess.


Yeah I knew Levi was sponsored, but how bout the rest if them. And to me the Reinharts look like cartoon characters.


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## HardcoreArchery

outbackarcher said:


> Levi is sponsored by Rhinehart so I say he is good with it. Supposedly they got a killer offer and couldn't turn it down. Can't blame them I don't guess.


Yeah I knew Levi was sponsored, but how bout the rest if them. And to me the Reinharts look like cartoon characters.


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## aabowhunter

Just choot em, a ten is a ten on either one. I will shoot any of them.


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## outbackarcher

HardcoreArchery said:


> Yeah I knew Levi was sponsored, but how bout the rest if them. And to me the Reinharts look like cartoon characters.


I agree with you on the looks. I think Mckenzies look way more realistic. As far as the other pros not sure how they feel but they are going to have to spend some cash if they want to keep up.


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## Garceau

Gahaha.....

What i heard is only rumor and not from anyone in the know but it makes sense.

The targets are free for Ibo, then when auctioned off at end of shoot the money goes back to rinehart.



Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## fullrut05

You guys are questioning the picture of the Rhinehart core that has 113 shots, what I don't see is anyone questioning the McKenzie core being shot only 79 times? People obviously have come to expect this kind of performance from McKenzie cores. After you shoot Rhineharts for a while you will realize that this picture is very representative of the 2 target companies.


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## Bucks

Competition is good and so is variety I personally dont care what targets are used.


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## SonnyThomas

Daniel Boone said:


> Just to inform you the cores dont last as long in Rhinharts. My buddy repairs targets all across the US.
> Older Rhineharts did hold up well but the newer one dont.
> DB


Your buddy repairs shot out Rinehart cores? Why for God's sake?

One of the clubs I belong to have all Rineharts. Something 100 Rineharts. The club is doing quite well. Last month we had 151 shooters. This past weekend we 86 on Saturday and when I left early Sunday (sick) 43 had signed and cars were pulling in the parking lot. And it was raining! For the past 3 or 4 years now we having been averaging 140 to 150 shooter per event and usually once a year we'll draw 200 and more.
If by our purchasing of replacement centers Rinehart cores are holding up as well as they ever have.

Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!

Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.

Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried


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## HardcoreArchery

Does anyone know what targets they will be choosing? I'm really hoping no dinosaurs or aliens


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## hoytxcutter

It is posted on the IBO site that they will be choosing 25 targets but does not mention which ones.


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## hoytxcutter

SonnyThomas said:


> Your buddy repairs shot out Rinehart cores? Why for God's sake?
> 
> One of the clubs I belong to have all Rineharts. Something 100 Rineharts. The club is doing quite well. Last month we had 151 shooters. This past weekend we 86 on Saturday and when I left early Sunday (sick) 43 had signed and cars were pulling in the parking lot. And it was raining! For the past 3 or 4 years now we having been averaging 140 to 150 shooter per event and usually once a year we'll draw 200 and more.
> If by our purchasing of replacement centers Rinehart cores are holding up as well as they ever have.
> 
> Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!
> 
> Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.


I was wondering the same thing. Why would repair the core. It probably cost more to repair than it does to buy a new core.


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## outbackarcher

fullrut05 said:


> You guys are questioning the picture of the Rhinehart core that has 113 shots, what I don't see is anyone questioning the McKenzie core being shot only 79 times? People obviously have come to expect this kind of performance from McKenzie cores. After you shoot Rhineharts for a while you will realize that this picture is very representative of the 2 target companies.


Well since you brought it up. Really don't believe that either. That appears to be a Russian boar xt plug and my Russian boar xt plug has WAY more than 79 shots and is in better shape than that. That plug appears to have been shot in the 12 ring alot on the other side and the arrows were sticking through. 

Call me names and your glad no one listens to my opinion but I think your pictures don't show the story you are telling.

I am not bashing rhinehart in any way. They are good targets just wish they were a little more life like, like the Mckenzies are. I will shoot what ever target the range has I could care less.


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## Daniel Boone

bowtecchip said:


> I say fk it if you can shoot it dont matter what we shoot. Its like starting on an even playing field stop being sush big babies. People need too man up this sight has turned
> into a soap opra its an archery sight people grow a set shut up and bring it. we all got the same amount of time too start judging targets.


You don't have to hang around here. No one forcing you!
DB


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## nitro kaw

IMO it does not matter what targets they shoot but I own a 3d range and have had both rinehart and mckenzie and the pic of the boar core and the rinehart deer seem about right. At the world shoot on the open class range we were the last ones to shoot and we all shot threw a target (arrow tips sticking out back side) and that was after only 160 shots. We bought new cores for our rineharts this year at the range and most of them look like they havent even been shot after about 250 shooters. Now i do think the older mckenzies lasted longer but it cost much more to replace the vitals.


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## QuickKen

I just started 3D shooting a couple of years ago, and really do not care what target I shoot at. Being Mckenzie, Rinehart, R and W, field targets, or indoor spots. I just love shooting my bow, bow's. But I agree with the pressure it will put on the local clubs now. 
We had shooters that shot IBO, and ASA tournaments that said if a club had anything other then McKenzie targets they would not go back there to shoot. Due to target recognition on the distance away. 
Alot of pros that I talk with use first impression looking at the target to determine the distance the target is away, and other means to cross check their first impression. 
Now should a club invest 30 plus targets in Rinehart? Alot to invest for archery clubs. 
If ASA ever thought about moving north, the timing couldn't be better for them. I always wanted to shoot a ASA Tournament. Heard it's a very well run tournament? Kentucky would be the closest for me.


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## Daniel Boone

SonnyThomas said:


> Your buddy repairs shot out Rinehart cores? Why for God's sake?
> 
> One of the clubs I belong to have all Rineharts. Something 100 Rineharts. The club is doing quite well. Last month we had 151 shooters. This past weekend we 86 on Saturday and when I left early Sunday (sick) 43 had signed and cars were pulling in the parking lot. And it was raining! For the past 3 or 4 years now we having been averaging 140 to 150 shooter per event and usually once a year we'll draw 200 and more.
> If by our purchasing of replacement centers Rinehart cores are holding up as well as they ever have.
> 
> Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!
> 
> Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.
> 
> Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried


He dont repair Rhineharts. He dont repair Mckensies cores. He repairs the older Mckensies like brand new. Been one busy man this year and has repaired them all over the US. Saves clubs lots of money
DB


----------



## turkeywhisperer

bow-legged said:


> It was $80000.00 difference.


So all the shooters should expect a better payout!? Yeah right!!!! :lol3:


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## hossa1881

awesome!!!! love the rhineharts!!!


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## SonnyThomas

Mercy! I asked the following question in the Rinehart Post in General Discussion and the discussion died!

"And some company has XXXXX dollars up for grabs and no one is going to show up?"


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## wolfman_73

I understand people are gonna complain either way, but try living where there are no sanctioned 3D's and get back to me. 

Just gives y'all a reason to practice more afaic. 

What they should do is just pick random targets from whoever makes targets and put em out there in a fair setup. That way no one is gonna spend the coin for a full set to practice on and every one have the same (dis)advantage. 

But mainly just be lucky and happy you have shoots where you can pay to play and win something, cuz that ain't everywhere


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## jjf41380

I can see this whole target thing from both sides of the fence. I am the archery captain at a local club, we have mostly Rinehart targets. Hopefully the change of targets used by the IBO will help increase the number of shooters we get. On the other hand I know a lot of guys that have spent a lot of money buying Mckenzie targets so that they can practice on the same targets that we see at national events. I am sure that is enough for anyone to see why guys are upset about the change in targets. I will continue to shoot IBO events because I love shooting my bow.


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## Hallsway

Finally a decision. Now I can get on with it. Once you know the goal, then you know how to act.


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## nowheels

So you shooters that stop shooting IBO, where will you shoot when ASA makes the switch?


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## 06bowtech

*I know it may sound crazy...*

But how nice would it be if an organization that you pay to belong to, would actually listen and value the opinions of its own members!? How about making all the information available to the public and put it to a vote? And let the clubs/members decide what targets we will shoot and how a shoot will be ran, who we will elect as the president of our organization....


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## Jay-J

Does anyone know how long of a contract ASA has with McKenzie?


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## Archerywarrior

aabowhunter said:


> just choot em, a ten is a ten on either one. I will shoot any of them.


amen


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## bhtr3d

Jay-J said:


> Does anyone know how long of a contract ASA has with McKenzie?


They renewed....but I can say with about 99.9999% you wont see reinharts at ASA


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## bhtr3d

Originally Posted by aabowhunter 
just choot em, a ten is a ten on either one. I will shoot any of them.
amen 


yeah, and how ibo rules right now....you have a chance to get a 10 or 11 in two places. just saying


----------



## tweeter196

bhtr3d said:


> Originally Posted by aabowhunter
> just choot em, a ten is a ten on either one. I will shoot any of them.
> amen
> 
> 
> yeah, and how ibo rules right now....you have a chance to get a 10 or 11 in two places. just saying


I thought rinehart was going to do an "ibo" insert for the national stuff. For example only one ten ring and the eleven ring with no twelve rings.....I dunno maybe that was just rumor.....but lots of rumors been turning to fact lately.....can't remember where I heard it though

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## ultratecjason10

Well for shure the scores will b a lot different next year I bet !


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## rascal

tweeter196 said:


> I thought rinehart was going to do an "ibo" insert for the national stuff. For example only one ten ring and the eleven ring with no twelve rings.....I dunno maybe that was just rumor.....but lots of rumors been turning to fact lately.....can't remember where I heard it though
> 
> Fearless at the stake!!!!!


 You are correct


----------



## talkalot

I wish they didn't change only because I am one of those guys with a $1000 worth of Mckenzies in the back yard. But I will shoot what they use. 
I heard that the Clubs that sponsor the events have to buy the targets....if that is so how is the IBO saving any money?


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## rascal

II. TARGETS AND SCORING AREAS
A. Targets
1. At all IBO-sanctioned shooting events, targets shall consist of 2-D silhouette or 3-D type animal targets having official IBO scoring areas.
2. Host clubs may mix the size of the animals so long as the targets have official IBO scoring areas.


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## 300MAG

I am disappointed. I shoot both organizations. I have 34 mckenzie targets. It took me 5 years to build up this many targets on my range. Ibo switching to rhinehearts. I do not gave the time, money or land to get rhinehearts. I will spend more of my time shooting Nfaa. I always wanted to go to redding.


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## PAFD ARCHER

look at the press release on the ibo sight. i think they are making IBO specific targets . i beleive it says something along the lines of contact the ibo for more details and such. i for one dont like the looks of the current rineharts but if they come out with 25 new targets just to compete on that look more like mckenzies i will continue to shoot the ibo. i have always thought if they used mckenzies molds and rineharts foam it would be the best target out there.


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## Supermag1

300MAG said:


> I am disappointed. I shoot both organizations. I have 34 mckenzie targets. It took me 5 years to build up this many targets on my range. Ibo switching to rhinehearts. I do not gave the time, money or land to get rhinehearts. I will spend more of my time shooting Nfaa. I always wanted to go to redding.


So you'll shoot the IBO less because they have Rineharts but are going to shoot Redding that has a bunch of custom made targets instead?


----------



## 300MAG

SonnyThomas said:


> Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!
> 
> Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.
> 
> Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried


Sonny,

The reason that your club does better than the other has nothing to do with what brand of targets. The club that you are referring to has problem getting shooters because of past management, another club being open every weekend and location. There are 3 clubs around that club that have rhineharts and they are lucky to get 50 shooter also. that same club back 10-15 years ago was getting 150 to 250 shooters. Your club is in a goods spot where you do not have lot of competition to the west of you.

Your asa rep wanted your club to get 30 or so mckenzies so that you could host an ASA state championship, not just a qualifier. In addition maybe pull some shooters that like shooting Mckenzies because that is what they shoot nationally for some good practice.


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## 300MAG

Supermag1 said:


> So you'll shoot the IBO less because they have Rineharts but are going to shoot Redding that has a bunch of custom made targets instead?


That is marked yardage and has an orange dot on it. I don't need to have a set of targets to practice for this. I just need a package of orange dots and a place to shoot out to 105 yards.


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## J Whittington

not going to happen, they been there, done that, and got burnt. mike and the other owners are smarter than that




nowheels said:


> So you shooters that stop shooting IBO, where will you shoot when ASA makes the switch?


----------



## J Whittington

sir,I agree with you 100%, your idea is spot on, however its not going to happen simply because it makes to much common sense to do so 





06bowtech said:


> But how nice would it be if an organization that you pay to belong to, would actually listen and value the opinions of its own members!? How about making all the information available to the public and put it to a vote? And let the clubs/members decide what targets we will shoot and how a shoot will be ran, who we will elect as the president of our organization....


----------



## 2 BEARS

talkalot said:


> I wish they didn't change only because I am one of those guys with a $1000 worth of Mckenzies in the back yard. But I will shoot what they use.
> I heard that the Clubs that sponsor the events have to buy the targets....if that is so how is the IBO saving any money?


Not true


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## Old Man Archer

The pictures of the 2 inserts are a true representation on the 2 products. In fact the McKenzie looks like it had fewer shots than stated. I'm a director of an archery club where we have used virtually every type of target on the market and now use exclusively Rineharts. If you notice the different sizes of the inserts you will see that the Rinehart is 2-4X's the size of the McKenzie for the same size target. At one time all the ASA and IBO , Rinehart haters said that the Rinehart insert told you where the kill zone was. The actual IBO centers of a Rinehart target have a lot of space around them with just the lungs and heart zone represented along with part of the 5 zone , Where as the McKenzie actually does show you exactly where the ten ring is because it is the ten ring. I know all of you only hit the 12,11,10 rings and never hit the 8 so that area would never get chewed up by arrows. But if it did get chewed up it would sure make a new insert stick out like a sore thumb and also make it hard to keep in the target body. 

The comments about the Rineharts looking unreal , cartoonish must hunt where all the animals get shaved so you can see the underlying musculature as the McKenzies show , the only reason they look like that is so shooters can establish the TELLS that are on each target about where the kill zones are.( Their version of inserts goes even farther into showing the ten ring now doesn't it?) 

By the way the novelty targets like the Dinosaurs and the jackalope are just that novelty and they serve a purpose , to draw young people and non hunters into the sport it is a fun way to get wives and kids into the sport. But then Rinehart is the only one to have them right ? Well now wait a minute there is a Bigfoot let's see it's made by Oh yeah by Mckenzies Mother company Delta and then there are also other dino's and such so I guess Rinehart isn't the only company that makes them it's just that they do it better.

Now just a bit of history The ASA used to use Rineharts and loved them but a dispute between the 2 ended the relationship that had nothing to do with the targets themselves, ASA's loss. Also if any of you are hunters and have had your animals mounted there is a good chance they are mounted on a blank that came from McKensie that was designed by the man who started Rinehart when he worked for them , hows that grab you for Realistic.
This sport is always evolving otherwise we would all be shooting stick bows and most of you would give it up. There is always room for new eguipment and new targets if you can't wecome it and adapt get out. Those of us that have been in this sport for the past 40-50 years have seen many changes some have been good , some have been Great , few have been bad . To limit 3-D competition to one brand of target is and would have been a bad decision to continue with. I applaud the IBO for moving forward.


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## millerarchery

here is a email i recieved
http://www.archerywire.com/releases/267761/


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## Old Man Archer

bhtr3d said:


> Originally Posted by aabowhunter
> just choot em, a ten is a ten on either one. I will shoot any of them.
> amen
> 
> 
> yeah, and how ibo rules right now....you have a chance to get a 10 or 11 in two places. just saying


Rinehart has several different centers the one shown is a 45 degree club center that allows is to be set at a quartering away shot and have a corresponding kill zone. ( if it's too hard for you to understand I'll explain you only score the back kill when shooting at a quartering set up shot at which time the host of the shoot specifies that is the legal kill zone .) it is not meant to be a competition center. They also have strictly ASA centers , IBO centers and a universal center that incorporates both similar to the centers that McKenzie markets. Now for the comment of having a chance to score a 10 or 11 in two places only a crooked archer would contemplate that , have they checked your bino's lately , or maybe your I-phone?


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## victor001

I can't figure out why people say Rhineharts aren't realistic . Everytime they say that they talk about the Rhineharts novelty target's . At some shoot's with Mckenzies there's three different colored sections , back's not lining up , so much more natural . LOL To me it doesn't matter it's a target . Everyone start practicing your ranging . Should'nt get used to judging distance by one company's target size . JMO Good luck to everyone . Whatever it is sponsor your club's , or you won't have to worry about what target to shoot . :wink:


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## Supermag1

300MAG said:


> That is marked yardage and has an orange dot on it. I don't need to have a set of targets to practice for this. I just need a package of orange dots and a place to shoot out to 105 yards.


Good point, hopefully you'll also shoot some of the NFAAs other events too.


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## shootist

*Unrealistic? Maybe...*

These are probably some of the targets people are referring to as being unrealistic. I know I have shot these targets at many local shoots and I never thought they looked too good.

The catalina goat (cheese goat to many people because of the yellowish appearance) stands 22" tall.


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## HardcoreArchery

rascal said:


> II. TARGETS AND SCORING AREAS
> A. Targets
> 1. At all IBO-sanctioned shooting events, targets shall consist of 2-D silhouette or 3-D type animal targets having official IBO scoring areas.
> 2. Host clubs may mix the size of the animals so long as the targets have official IBO scoring areas.


Well R&W targets do not have official IBO scoring rings. In the IBO rules it states that the 11 must be 25% the size of the 10. R&W's aren't even close so how do clubs get away with this for IBO events?


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## Old Man Archer

300MAG said:


> Sonny,
> 
> The reason that your club does better than the other has nothing to do with what brand of targets. The club that you are referring to has problem getting shooters because of past management, another club being open every weekend and location. There are 3 clubs around that club that have rhineharts and they are lucky to get 50 shooter also. that same club back 10-15 years ago was getting 150 to 250 shooters. Your club is in a goods spot where you do not have lot of competition to the west of you.
> 
> Your asa rep wanted your club to get 30 or so mckenzies so that you could host an ASA state championship, not just a qualifier. In addition maybe pull some shooters that like shooting Mckenzies because that is what they shoot nationally for some good practice.


Your wrong on so many points we pull many shooters from long distances that come because of the targets and how well the range is set up. The few shooters that would come to our club to shoot McKenzies wouldn't put 100.00 in the till and we only charge 10 per adult. We don't want to hold a State ASA after the last time when the now state director called people and told them to stay home because all we had were Rineharts ( this after the state organization nearly begged us to hold it) that was one heck of a way to support a new ASA club and archery in general, that was trying to do it's part. If you don't believe me ask your illustrious director he told my this to my face the following year at state ( where virtually every target was repaired or near to it besides having a rascal target set out and an IBO center but that was OK cause they were all McKenzies. If McKenzies were such a good draw your home club would do better than they are. We compete with the same club that is open every weekend and seem to do well with pulling some of their shooters. We have people come from 50 or more miles away in the middle of the week to use our practice facility , we have members from several different states that make the drive once a month to our shoot. Remember the average shooter can't afford to have a 34 target practice range or go to 1 or more out of state competitions a month so when they come to shoot and have fun they enjoy the novelty targets and the variety not just the same 30 targets every shoot set in competition settings. You can be ''THE ASA'' club around we'll settle for being the most attended and enjoyed club around who listens to it's members and involes them in the decisions that are made like what kind of targets they prefer. No organization is going to tell us what kind of targets we should have the club belongs to the members and we run it as such that is why we are still popular not the location. There are more shooters per capita around your area by evidence of all the shops and local clubs so why the dismal numbers? If McKenzies make that much of a difference you should be having to turn shooters away since almost everyone else has Rineharts.


----------



## sagecreek

Sad, sad, sad.


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## bhtr3d

Old Man Archer said:


> Rinehart has several different centers the one shown is a 45 degree club center that allows is to be set at a quartering away shot and have a corresponding kill zone. ( if it's too hard for you to understand I'll explain you only score the back kill when shooting at a quartering set up shot at which time the host of the shoot specifies that is the legal kill zone .) it is not meant to be a competition center. They also have strictly ASA centers , IBO centers and a universal center that incorporates both similar to the centers that McKenzie markets. Now for the comment of having a chance to score a 10 or 11 in two places only a crooked archer would contemplate that , have they checked your bino's lately , or maybe your I-phone?


LOL......too hard for me to understand???? Sir..you don't know who I am.....but that is ok. But to address my post about the two 10s two 11s on each. It been done before...and I believe it was done on a NTC shoot this year. (been discussed about previouly this year) 

I wish them well, in their choice....


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## bow-legged

We are leaning towards closing the doors. I want to see the club pricing before I make it official. 

I don't think I will be able to afford new targets while trying to keep half way decent cores in the McKenzie XT targets. If attendance drops because I have McKenzies then that would make it even harder to replace targets. Im not a club so the only money that keeps the range open is the $15.00 per shooter (and yes i have people complain about $15.00) and a little from the food sales. I cant afford to stick any more of my money into the range. I think this mite be the final nail in the coffin for CRA


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## hammer head

Some people would [email protected] if they were hung with a gold rope


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## 300MAG

Ole man archer, 

Did u read my post. The reason your club draws so many has nothing to do with the targets. There are three clubs that that have rhinehearts near the one that does have mckenzie. The ones that have rhinehearts don't draw the number of shooters that your club does. That is why I said what I said. They only draw 20-50 a weekend also.


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## 300MAG

Ole man archer,

U guys draw because of location the way u run your shoots and the good participation U get from your members. U welcome people. Which has nothing to do with the targets. If I ha d or brand x target u would still bring in a lot of shooters. I did not read the post at all.


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## Daniel Boone

hammer head said:


> Some people would [email protected] if they were hung with a gold rope


Called a disscusion forum. I think everyone having a good disscussion. But great input on your part.:thumbs_do
DB


----------



## 300MAG

Excuse some of my typing I am doing this from a phone.


----------



## hammer head

You can give me all the thumbs down you want db . It's true some one is going to complain . I don't care what targets ibo or Asa shoots it nice to have touraments to shoot at


----------



## PETeach

First I am going to say i don't care which targets they use I will still shoot because I love the competition. As for a preference it doesn't matter to me cuz they both have advantages and disadvantages. The material of a reinhart is far superior to mackenzie, they hold up better and arrow pulling is so much easier! The looks of a mackenzie and aiming on one is much better! We shoot both at our clubs in the area. For a club the reinharts in the end will cost them less. They hold up better and the midsections never change and the entire 8 ring is replaced in a core if you are using them for asa style money shoots and the 14 ring gets chewed up!

I will say that a lot of people get on AT and bash the IBO and say they need to make changes and they don't listen to the members! Then they make a change and the same people get on and hammer them for it instead of supporting them and see where it leads! They are not going to make everyone happy, but without the IBO archery would die off in my area! ASA shoots are just too far for us so I support the IBO and their decisions and if it costs less to use reinharts then it benefits the shooters. I don't even pretend to have all the answers and I don't think the IBO is perfect but I can't say I could run a flawless organization either! However I compete against other shooters not the IBO or ASA so it doesn't matter to me.

My point is don't write something off because they made some changes! Give it a chance because in the end everyone in your class has to shoot the same targets you do!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## edgerat

hammer head said:


> You can give me all the thumbs down you want db . It's true some one is going to complain . I don't care what targets ibo or Asa shoots it nice to have touraments to shoot at


agreed.... some awfully sandy vaginas in here... Levi is excited about the new challenge presented, probably because he doesn't need any of the excuses most of the 3D world uses....


----------



## shootist

edgerat said:


> Levi is excited about the new challenge presented, probably because he doesn't need any of the excuses most of the 3D world uses....


For what it is worth, Levi is also sponsored by Rinehart, lol.


----------



## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried





300MAG said:


> Sonny,
> The reason that your club does better than the other has nothing to do with what brand of targets. The club that you are referring to has problem getting shooters because of past management, another club being open every weekend and location. There are 3 clubs around that club that have rhineharts and they are lucky to get 50 shooter also. that same club back 10-15 years ago was getting 150 to 250 shooters. Your club is in a goods spot where you do not have lot of competition to the west of you.
> 
> Your asa rep wanted your club to get 30 or so mckenzies so that you could host an ASA state championship, not just a qualifier. In addition maybe pull some shooters that like shooting Mckenzies because that is what they shoot nationally for some good practice.


I don't believe I said Rinehart targets were the reason for our having a fair chunk of attendance. I just pointed out we have all Rinehart targets and we do have good attendance. Our club has been in extistance since 1964, so this also may be part of our good attendance. 
As for the other clubs, I've talked with both. I am also a member of the one club you are referring to. Some time back I was asked to set in their annual meeting. When all said and done the club became a ASA club. That was my advice and I was on the IAA Board at the time. I in fact spoke with 3rd club in the area and they also became ASA club. Of the other I spoke with, I volunteered to help should they host a ASA event. I have volunteered to help several clubs.

I know what our Area ASA Rep was doing. He was doing his job and I commend him for such. Others should do as well as he does. Let's not hash words. Our ASA Area Rep is Tim Yocum and he is a good guy. Well, except when he talked me out of my last Stan Deuce. I've shot with him before we began shooting ASA events. He lives a good stone's throw from my house and he is welcome anytime.

Our club pulls shooters from a great deal away, down past Springfield, from up around Chicago and some even from Iowa. To sell off present targets to have McKenzies on-hand is not cost worthy. What this amounts to is holding back 30 McKenzies for a year and possibly longer to host a State Championship. Why? McKenzie's lack of durability of the main target body. Life expectancy is something like under 3 years - broken ears, heads, joints, and legs. We have Rineharts over 10 years old and still going.
To have McKenzies on hand to pick up a ASA shooter here and there would not amount to much over even a year. Besides, most the ASA shooters in the area do shoot at our club.
I know how well it is to host 3 ASA Qualifiers and 1 State Championship. These events offset the cost of joining the ASA for 3 three years and gave us $90.00 to the next year.


----------



## 300MAG

Sonny 
You did say that rhinehearts were the reason why. Which is a better target design for durability and replacement, rhinehearts in my opinion is more cost effective and the better replacement core system other than the plastic tube. But I wasn't arguing which one was better or cost effective.
As for getting rid of 30 rhinehearts and buying 30 mckenzies to host an Asa shoot. I don't think it is a stretch to do. I agree I would like to see the Asa state championship closer to home. We in central Illinois almost always have to travel 2 hours or more to shoot Asa state. You have 100 targets you put out 40 to 50 during a weekend shoot. U could sell your oldest an worst conditioned targets and get some mckenzies. It would be nice to grow the Asa in the north so that maybe there would be enough draw for Asa to hold a national event farther north than metropolis. Tim would like to see the state championship closer to home once while to. This year it was here locally for the first time.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

outbackarcher said:


> If all these shooters come to the ASA that say they are we will welcome them with open arms. However it will be interesting to see how the ASA handles the increased numbers. I think that they are about at their max with the number of shooters they can handle effectively.


couldn't agree more


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

haydenhunter said:


> I co-own and operate Sand Creek Archery in Southern Indiana. We are an IBO commercial range and have always used McKenzie targets.......until 2 months ago. The last couple years McKenzie has been putting out some real crap. We had to either switch to Rineharts or go out of business. We sold all our McKenzie Targets and bought all new Rineharts. Below is a picture that shows a brand new McKenzie Core with 79 shots and a brand new Rinehart with 113 shots in it. Pretty cut and dry right there. Yes Rinehart is much more initial cost to purchase the target but MUCH cheaper per shot. I hope the IBO has indeed made the switch to a quality target such as Rinehart.


113 shots with what? I am calling BS on this I have changed out a few vitals of both brands


----------



## BROX

bow-legged said:


> we are leaning towards closing the doors. I want to see the club pricing before i make it official.
> 
> I don't think i will be able to afford new targets while trying to keep half way decent cores in the mckenzie xt targets. If attendance drops because i have mckenzies then that would make it even harder to replace targets. Im not a club so the only money that keeps the range open is the $15.00 per shooter (and yes i have people complain about $15.00) and a little from the food sales. I cant afford to stick any more of my money into the range. I think this mite be the final nail in the coffin for cra


no no no say it isn't ssssssoooooo


----------



## 300MAG

What the whole target change boils down to is the almighty dollar. 

Shooters and clubs invested into mckenzies because that is what the want to shoot and practice shooting because ibo national tournaments were shooting them. 

Ibo made a change. Now to individual shooters and clubs will either have to make this change to be able to practice or hold shoots to be the same as the ibo. You are talking big money for to make this change. Ibo did this because of their own financial reasons. Now it is affecting anyone or club that was following this organization from a target situation.

Clubs made big financial commitments across pa, oh, in and other ibo states that bought mckenzie targets because ibo was shooting them. This is very unfortunate that ibo dis regarded a lot of loyal supporters for $8000 a year in savings in targets.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

Old Man Archer said:


> The pictures of the 2 inserts are a true representation on the 2 products. In fact the McKenzie looks like it had fewer shots than stated. I'm a director of an archery club where we have used virtually every type of target on the market and now use exclusively Rineharts. If you notice the different sizes of the inserts you will see that the Rinehart is 2-4X's the size of the McKenzie for the same size target. At one time all the ASA and IBO , Rinehart haters said that the Rinehart insert told you where the kill zone was. The actual IBO centers of a Rinehart target have a lot of space around them with just the lungs and heart zone represented along with part of the 5 zone , Where as the McKenzie actually does show you exactly where the ten ring is because it is the ten ring. I know all of you only hit the 12,11,10 rings and never hit the 8 so that area would never get chewed up by arrows. But if it did get chewed up it would sure make a new insert stick out like a sore thumb and also make it hard to keep in the target body.
> 
> The comments about the Rineharts looking unreal , cartoonish must hunt where all the animals get shaved so you can see the underlying musculature as the McKenzies show , the only reason they look like that is so shooters can establish the TELLS that are on each target about where the kill zones are.( Their version of inserts goes even farther into showing the ten ring now doesn't it?)
> 
> By the way the novelty targets like the Dinosaurs and the jackalope are just that novelty and they serve a purpose , to draw young people and non hunters into the sport it is a fun way to get wives and kids into the sport. But then Rinehart is the only one to have them right ? Well now wait a minute there is a Bigfoot let's see it's made by Oh yeah by Mckenzies Mother company Delta and then there are also other dino's and such so I guess Rinehart isn't the only company that makes them it's just that they do it better.
> 
> Now just a bit of history The ASA used to use Rineharts and loved them but a dispute between the 2 ended the relationship that had nothing to do with the targets themselves, ASA's loss. Also if any of you are hunters and have had your animals mounted there is a good chance they are mounted on a blank that came from McKensie that was designed by the man who started Rinehart when he worked for them , hows that grab you for Realistic.
> This sport is always evolving otherwise we would all be shooting stick bows and most of you would give it up. There is always room for new eguipment and new targets if you can't wecome it and adapt get out. Those of us that have been in this sport for the past 40-50 years have seen many changes some have been good , some have been Great , few have been bad . To limit 3-D competition to one brand of target is and would have been a bad decision to continue with. I applaud the IBO for moving forward.


I agree with reinhart holding up better, as far as the novelity targets I could care less both have them and they dont hold up due to size, I can shoot either target but as I have stated before, I judge them diff and once you shoot the reinhart and learn the target no problem, on a positive note the 10 and 12 ring are bigger than mckenzie, but having older model reinharts and then to buy a new reinhart you will quickly see they are thinner and some vital dont work on an older target, as for ASA the deal with that was reinhart did not do what they were supposted to do which was bring new targets to each pro am, then the problems started, the facts are this, both targets have went up in price, dont last as long, and they know you pay or you dont get them, mckenzie has went down hill since delta


----------



## 6rob4

bow-legged said:


> We are leaning towards closing the doors. I want to see the club pricing before I make it official.
> 
> I don't think I will be able to afford new targets while trying to keep half way decent cores in the McKenzie XT targets. If attendance drops because I have McKenzies then that would make it even harder to replace targets. Im not a club so the only money that keeps the range open is the $15.00 per shooter (and yes i have people complain about $15.00) and a little from the food sales. I cant afford to stick any more of my money into the range. I think this mite be the final nail in the coffin for CRA


say it isnt so.hate to lose the best 3d coarse around


----------



## J Whittington

edgerat said:


> agreed.... some awfully sandy vaginas in here... Levi is excited about the new challenge presented, probably because he doesn't need any of the excuses most of the 3D world uses....


i bet ya he has rinehardt targets too they are a sponsor to his show. IF you are going to compete at a high level in the advanced classes you need targets


----------



## bigGP

shootist said:


> For what it is worth, Levi is also sponsored by Rinehart, lol.


For what its worth....Levi WASN'T sponsored by Mckenzie........ What does that have to do with anything? LMAO


----------



## bigGP

300MAG said:


> What the whole target change boils down to is the almighty dollar.
> 
> Shooters and clubs invested into mckenzies because that is what the want to shoot and practice shooting because ibo national tournaments were shooting them.
> 
> Ibo made a change. Now to individual shooters and clubs will either have to make this change to be able to practice or hold shoots to be the same as the ibo. You are talking big money for to make this change. Ibo did this because of their own financial reasons. Now it is affecting anyone or club that was following this organization from a target situation.
> 
> Clubs made big financial commitments across pa, oh, in and other ibo states that bought mckenzie targets because ibo was shooting them. This is very unfortunate that ibo dis regarded a lot of loyal supporters for $8000 a year in savings in targets.


Was there the same outrage when ASA went away from Rinehart years back???? How many of the archers shooting today even shot a bow when that happened? LOL


----------



## D.Short

Levi probably doesn't care,he is that good;but he also will only probably compete 1 more season anyway,to beat Hopkins' shooter of the year record,then move on to his family,new home in Pa. and hunting/TV interests.....I myself would like to see all brands being used randomly,even painted and spotted/striped different at random,to make it purer in the sense,just kinda sucks getting beat by some that know the targets better than other shooters.I know I get beaten by better archers,but part of what makes them better is that have their own set of targets.Hence,I get beat in part because they have something that most don't;daily familiarity.On the other hand,maybe that's just my excuse?


----------



## shootist

bigGP said:


> For what its worth....Levi WASN'T sponsored by Mckenzie........ What does that have to do with anything? LMAO


Did you even read the comment I quoted with my response? In case you missed it I posted it again below. edgerat was stating that Levi is excited about the change to Rineharts because he doesn't need excuses like everybody else. All I was stating is that he is sponsored by them, so it would be natural that he would look forward to the change. It wasn't a knock on Levi, edgerat, Rinehart or the IBO. It was just a simple statement.

To answer your other question, I shot my first national IBO tournament in 1994 and my first ASA Pro Am in 1996. I shot ASA quite a few years before they switched to Rineharts and I'm still shooting them many years after they switched back. 



edgerat said:


> Levi is excited about the new challenge presented, probably because he doesn't need any of the excuses most of the 3D world uses....


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

bigGP said:


> Was there the same outrage when ASA went away from Rinehart years back???? How many of the archers shooting today even shot a bow when that happened? LOL


I'd say quite a few were shooting a bow back then. What's that have to do with it? When's the last time you shot an IBO event?


----------



## Bigjono

I'm guessing that a good percentage of the moaners on this thread shoot sighted compounds. Get real guys, you are aiming at a small circle in the middle of another small small circle. Why get your knickers in a twist over the make of the circle. If you're good enough you can hit it, if you're not you won't, doesn't matter which companies name is on it.
I love Rineharts but I will shoot anything and everything as long as the course is good.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

the thing I hate is lots of clubs want to buy all the small reinharts thinking they are saving money, when in all reality they are wasting money the small targets dont hold up, just for the record levi can shoot reinharts, he came to one of our shoots and won it several yrs back, we now have mckenzies, I will shoot whatever but dont care for R & W


----------



## shootist

3Dblackncamo said:


> just for the record levi can shoot reinharts, he came to one of our shoots and won it several yrs back,


Levi is the best 3d shooter in the game (and a pretty darned good indoor shooter too!). He can shoot anything.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

shootist said:


> Levi is the best 3d shooter in the game (and a pretty darned good indoor shooter too!). He can shoot anything.


got that right, he is a machine


----------



## lojo

Bigjono said:


> I'm guessing that a good percentage of the moaners on this thread shoot sighted compounds. Get real guys, you are aiming at a small circle in the middle of another small small circle. Why get your knickers in a twist over the make of the circle. If you're good enough you can hit it, if you're not you won't, doesn't matter which companies name is on it.
> I love Rineharts but I will shoot anything and everything as long as the course is good.


LOL! Love this post! Puts it all in the right perspective!


----------



## 300MAG

bigGP said:


> Was there the same outrage when ASA went away from Rinehart years back???? How many of the archers shooting today even shot a bow when that happened? LOL


There was in my area because the guys that were Asa only had rhinehearts. The good thing was they could sell them pretty easy because most of northern Illinois and Wisconsin clubs converted to rhinehearts. 
Me I was shooting mckenzies before and I always could judge them a little easier than rhinehearts. It didn't bug me


----------



## 300MAG

D.Short said:


> Levi probably doesn't care,he is that good;but he also will only probably compete 1 more season anyway,to beat Hopkins' shooter of the year record,then move on to his family,new home in Pa. and hunting/TV interests.....I myself would like to see all brands being used randomly,even painted and spotted/striped different at random,to make it purer in the sense,just kinda sucks getting beat by some that know the targets better than other shooters.I know I get beaten by better archers,but part of what makes them better is that have their own set of targets.Hence,I get beat in part because they have something that most don't;daily familiarity.On the other hand,maybe that's just my excuse?


I doubt he will quit after he beats Jeff's record. He makes a living shooting a bow. This my opinion.


----------



## Daniel Boone

hammer head said:


> You can give me all the thumbs down you want db . It's true some one is going to complain . I don't care what targets ibo or Asa shoots it nice to have touraments to shoot at


As members of IBO they got a right to voice there opinions.
DB


----------



## ArrowStar1

I am going to voice my opinion with my $$$. That's all that matters anyway since the membership has no voice in these matters. 
Hope the ASA has room for one more. I am going to miss seeing a lot of the friends that I have made that shoot IBO, but I'm hearing that a few are going to jump ship also.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Getting off the subject and I apologize.




SonnyThomas said:


> Your buddy repairs shot out Rinehart cores? Why for God's sake?
> 
> *One of the clubs I belong to have all Rineharts. Something 100 Rineharts. The club is doing quite well.* Last month we had 151 shooters. This past weekend we 86 on Saturday and when I left early Sunday (sick) 43 had signed and cars were pulling in the parking lot. And it was raining! For the past 3 or 4 years now we having been averaging 140 to 150 shooter per event and usually once a year we'll draw 200 and more.
> If by our purchasing of replacement centers Rinehart cores are holding up as well as they ever have.
> 
> Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!
> 
> Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.
> 
> Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried





300MAG said:


> Sonny You did say that rhinehearts were the reason why.


Please show me where.



300MAG said:


> As for getting rid of 30 rhinehearts and buying 30 mckenzies to host an Asa shoot. I don't think it is a stretch to do. I agree I would like to see the Asa state championship closer to home. We in central Illinois almost always have to travel 2 hours or more to shoot Asa state. You have 100 targets you put out 40 to 50 during a weekend shoot. U could sell your oldest an worst conditioned targets and get some mckenzies. It would be nice to grow the Asa in the north so that maybe there would be enough draw for Asa to hold a national event farther north than metropolis. Tim would like to see the state championship closer to home once while to. This year it was here locally for the first time.


There just is no justification for buying McKenzies, not ASA shooter wise, not ASA event wise. We have other ASA clubs here and in the north that have not put on Qualifiers. Has anyone spoken with them? I like to know just how many Illinois ASA clubs have been spoken with as to hosting a Qualifier - help with paper work and day of event, no need for McKenzie targets or ASA scoring zones (can be center IBO - and was done just this year at Decater), combine stakes if necessary.

Is this correct; Any ASA club can put on a ASA Qualifier so long as it is not within 100 miles of another club hosting a ASA Qualifier.

State Championships, first time locally? 2010, Canton (my back door), 30 miles from Peoria. 2008 & 2011, Monticello, a bit of a drive, but not that bad. 2012, Pekin (30 minutes for me).

22 ASA clubs in Illinois. Any club that has hosted 2 Qualifiers is eligible to apply for the State Championship.


----------



## Old Man Archer

300MAG said:


> Sonny
> You did say that rhinehearts were the reason why. Which is a better target design for durability and replacement, rhinehearts in my opinion is more cost effective and the better replacement core system other than the plastic tube. But I wasn't arguing which one was better or cost effective.
> As for getting rid of 30 rhinehearts and buying 30 mckenzies to host an Asa shoot. I don't think it is a stretch to do. I agree I would like to see the Asa state championship closer to home. We in central Illinois almost always have to travel 2 hours or more to shoot Asa state. You have 100 targets you put out 40 to 50 during a weekend shoot. U could sell your oldest an worst conditioned targets and get some mckenzies. It would be nice to grow the Asa in the north so that maybe there would be enough draw for Asa to hold a national event farther north than metropolis. Tim would like to see the state championship closer to home once while to. This year it was here locally for the first time.


 I realize you didn't direct this to me but I'll respond anyway. Our club is run by and for our members and they feel as though going back to McKenzies is a step backwards they don't want them. We have over a hundred targets because we do use Rineharts they outlast McKenzies which in turn saves us money and allows us to buy more so we can put on larger and more interesting shoots. The ASA had a chance to work with our club but blew it when we held the state championship and shooters were told to stay home because we only had Rineharts. ( Thanks for telling me this Chuck ) This is not how you grow the ASA or 3-D in our area. We keep being approached by certain people in the ASA about selling off half of our Rineharts and buying 20 -30 Mckenzies and we could get a few of the ASA shooters to show up which doesn't make sense because there really aren't that many and our shoot weekend corresponds with most of the ASA shoots or has for the past few years. And as already said we did hold the ASA state here locally in 2010 , where were you , you weren't there that I remember. From what I've noticed about most of the ASA people that keep suggesting things we should do have these things in common,1) they belong to clubs that are struggling yet want to suggest to us what would make ours better 2) they think we and our members would be impressed if a few more of them came to a few of our shoots 3) that there opinion means anything to our club. Basically when the ASA turned it's back on us with no support we in turn have done the same. I'm not speaking for our club just reporting what happened and what has been discussed.

It's time I beleive to welcome the IBO to our neck of the woods which we have already been discussing and will discuss some more at our next meeting and hey I think what would really help your club would be to buy 20-30 Rineharts . 300MAG I still like you as an archer and friend but we'll never agree about this but thats OK with me I can accept that and go on hope you can too. OMA


----------



## Old Man Archer

bhtr3d said:


> LOL......too hard for me to understand???? Sir..you don't know who I am.....but that is ok. But to address my post about the two 10s two 11s on each. It been done before...and I believe it was done on a NTC shoot this year. (been discussed about previouly this year)
> 
> I wish them well, in their choice....


No I know who you are and am not impressed . You make a sideways insult thinking your cute and got a not so sideways insulting response , don't like it then don't think your above reproach . You owe both IBO and Rinehart a professional apology because you know as well as I do that the IBO centers will be single kill . You were just trying to stir the pot a little and that should have been below you!


----------



## 300MAG

SonnyThomas said:


> One of the clubs I belong to have all Rineharts. Something 100 Rineharts. The club is doing quite well. Last month we had 151 shooters. This past weekend we 86 on Saturday and when I left early Sunday (sick) 43 had signed and cars were pulling in the parking lot. And it was raining! For the past 3 or 4 years now we having been averaging 140 to 150 shooter per event and usually once a year we'll draw 200 and more.
> If by our purchasing of replacement centers Rinehart cores are holding up as well as they ever have.
> 
> Another club has all McKenzies and would be glad to just get 45 shooters!
> 
> Another club I shot at two weeks ago is on the verge of closing. They have mostly McKenzies.
> 
> Almost forgot... Our ASA Area Rep tried to get our club to sell off some our Rineharts and get McKenzies. Well, he tried


Sonny,
If look above u said That your club gets over 100 shooters a weekend. Then you go down farther and say that a club that has mckenzies is lucky to get 45 to 50 shooters. My interpretation of that is u are saying mckenzie targets are the reason. What club is on the brink of shutting down. Leroy is the only one that may shutdown that has mckenzies but it isn't becsuse of targets. It's because the property owner sold the property they were leasing. They are currently are looking for another location. Their attendance was pretty good for a one day shoot. Anywhere from 50 to 80 depending on weather.


----------



## 300MAG

Ole man archer

Sounds like to me that your club has an issue with the asa director and it left a sour taste not with buying mckenzies. If it is true then I don't blame them for their decision. 

I forgot u guys had the state tournament a few years ago. I was out of state shooting an ibo at the time. Most of time it is either Monticello or down south 4 to 5 hours.


----------



## bhtr3d

Old Man Archer said:


> No I know who you are and am not impressed . You make a sideways insult thinking your cute and got a not so sideways insulting response , don't like it then don't think your above reproach . You owe both IBO and Rinehart a professional apology because you know as well as I do that the IBO centers will be single kill . You were just trying to stir the pot a little and that should have been below you!


I don't owe anyone anything.....All I will say is. I spoke this BEFORE it was said that they WOULD make a center just for ibo.......


----------



## t8ter

Got to take your hat off to rinehart.Who would have thought when they lost Asa they would make a living selling basically 18-1's.Then bide there time n come back to be ibo's target.How can you not be happy for a company like that.


----------



## bhtr3d

Old Man Archer said:


> No I know who you are and am not impressed . You make a sideways insult thinking your cute and got a not so sideways insulting response , don't like it then don't think your above reproach . You owe both IBO and Rinehart a professional apology because you know as well as I do that the IBO centers will be single kill . You were just trying to stir the pot a little and that should have been below you!


I don't owe anyone anything.....All I will say is. I spoke this BEFORE it was said that they WOULD make a center just for ibo....... 

i WISH you well..... good luck with what ever you and your club does.


----------



## SonnyThomas

300MAG said:


> Sonny,
> If look above u said That your club gets over 100 shooters a weekend. Then you go down farther and say that a club that has mckenzies is lucky to get 45 to 50 shooters. My interpretation of that is u are saying mckenzie targets are the reason. What club is on the brink of shutting down. Leroy is the only one that may shutdown that has mckenzies but it isn't becsuse of targets. It's because the property owner sold the property they were leasing. They are currently are looking for another location. Their attendance was pretty good for a one day shoot. Anywhere from 50 to 80depending on weather.


Yes, I sure did say what you're pointing to, but noted the fact that the club does have all McKenzies. Except for their first freezing shoot of the year I've shot every shoot since. Have you?
The club I was referring to, on the brink of closing, is west of me. I spoke directly to two of the club members. Closing will be discussed at their upcoming meeting.
LeRoy. I understand they have found a place near Farmer City.


----------



## 300MAG

Sonny I shoot every weekend and everyday some where. Either locally or out of state or on my range. I don't know what this has to do with what we are discussing. 

As for this topic, we have beaten this horse to death. I am done.

Sonny and ole man 

Shoot good hope to see you around.


----------



## SonnyThomas

300MAG said:


> Ole man archer
> 
> Sounds like to me that your club has an issue with the asa director and it left a sour taste not with buying mckenzies. If it is true then I don't blame them for their decision.
> 
> I forgot u guys had the state tournament a few years ago. I was out of state shooting an ibo at the time. Most of time it is either Monticello or down south 4 to 5 hours.


Though not directed to me;
The issue with the ASA State Director did not leave a sour taste for buying McKenzie targets. It left a sour taste for hosting another ASA event.


----------



## J Whittington

Bigjono said:


> I'm guessing that a good percentage of the moaners on this thread shoot sighted compounds. Get real guys, you are aiming at a small circle in the middle of another small small circle. Why get your knickers in a twist over the make of the circle. If you're good enough you can hit it, if you're not you won't, doesn't matter which companies name is on it.
> I love Rineharts but I will shoot anything and everything as long as the course is good.


its called judging yardage, all your top competitive successful pros, and top amatuers know the size of each target at different yardages!,


----------



## J Whittington

bigGP said:


> For what its worth....Levi WASN'T sponsored by Mckenzie........ What does that have to do with anything? LMAO



poole man, have you forgotten his relationship with billy , his first show full draw adventures? mckenzie was a sponsor. in one of the tournament archer mags, levi stated having the targets your going to compete with is very important


----------



## Bigjono

Then that is almost like shooting marked distance. The sport is supposed to be unmarked distance so the distance judgement becomes a required skill. All this "must only practice on the animals we shoot" bs is just that, bs. Shoot what's in front of you no matter what size or shape.





J Whittington said:


> its called judging yardage, all your top competitive successful pros, and top amatuers know the size of each target at different yardages!,


----------



## bhtr3d

Bigjono said:


> Then that is almost like shooting marked distance. The sport is supposed to be unmarked distance so the distance judgement becomes a required skill. All this "must only practice on the animals we shoot" bs is just that, bs. Shoot what's in front of you no matter what size or shape.


Bigjono..........I shouldn't do this.....This has been a kept secret for all of us that been shooting for ever just about......We all know the size of the animals...we have studied the wearalls as to what the the back to the belly....and what that size looks like at different distances.....We have in years past messured how those sizes are relitive to the distance the target is. This being relitive to a object that is near to it (example a tree) . See where the back shows its height to the tree. >>>Im gunna stop now....We pros do not what to give out all the secrets....Just thought i'd give you one


----------



## carlosii

bhtr3d said:


> Bigjono..........I shouldn't do this.....This has been a kept secret for all of us that been shooting for ever just about......We all know the size of the animals...we have studied the wearalls as to what the the back to the belly....and what that size looks like at different distances.....We have in years past messured how those sizes are relitive to the distance the target is. This being relitive to a object that is near to it (example a tree) . See where the back shows its height to the tree. >>>Im gunna stop now....We pros do not what to give out all the secrets....Just thought i'd give you one


you never told me about that. :angry:


----------



## yamaha

10-4 on the x ibo shooter,been shootin ibo since 1993 and was a lifetime member,not any more.


----------



## Bigjono

Damn you, cheating Pro's 

I think people who throw their toys out of the sand box and storm off over this are really quite sad, sorry.


----------



## kw1

J Whittington said:


> im calling bull shiiiiiiit onm this one . legally they may be, but in reality nope but dont care either folks gotta make a livin


If you say so.


----------



## carlosii

J Whittington said:


> poole man, have you forgotten his relationship with billy , his first show full draw adventures? mckenzie was a sponsor. in one of the tournament archer mags, levi stated having the targets your going to compete with is very important


that would be the infamous Tournament Archer magazine. still have it and can confirm that quote. :wink:


----------



## 3dbowmaster

I cant wait for the day when an organization goes with shooting 5 Mckenzies, 5 Rhineharts, 5 R&W's, 5 Longhorns and 5 Deltas!!!!!! Man that would be a blast!!!!! Unfortunately I guess I would be the only shooter there considering the way everyone whines about only wanting to shoot either Mckenzies or Rhineharts!!!!! I'd say less than 5% of the people that shoot National tournys ever place in the top 3 anyways, so what the heck does it matter what target you are shooting anyways, obviously 95% of us shooting a certain target every weekend doesnt matter a whole heck of alot, and doesnt help us..lol


----------



## Archerywarrior

the infamous tournament archer thiefs,lol,


----------



## vabowdog

Tournament archer magazine what ever happened to those crooks???.they took me for $35 and sent me nothing not even a thank you.


Dewayne


----------



## gobblemg

vabowdog said:


> Tournament archer magazine what ever happened to those crooks???.they took me for $35 and sent me nothing not even a thank you.
> 
> 
> Dewayne


me too


----------



## bsharkey

ArrowStar1 said:


> I am going to voice my opinion with my $$$. That's all that matters anyway since the membership has no voice in these matters.
> Hope the ASA has room for one more. I am going to miss seeing a lot of the friends that I have made that shoot IBO, but I'm hearing that a few are going to jump ship also.


the wife and i are doing the same next year we just don't care for how the IBO is set up.


----------



## bigGP

J Whittington said:


> poole man, have you forgotten his relationship with billy , his first show full draw adventures? mckenzie was a sponsor. in one of the tournament archer mags, levi stated having the targets your going to compete with is very important


It is important to have them if you want to make a living at it. Levi had all the mckenzies as do most of the Pro's. Alot of Am's had ranges for that matter. Now they will sell those off and get mckenzies. When I went to the IBO in Bedford........I drove past 2 OTHER 3D shoots on my way to the IBO.......That was pretty crazy and made it obvious that the IBO is not the end all be all for 3D archery (in that area anyway). If there is that many 3d shoots going on while a national IBO is happening 25 minutes down the road there is plenty of clubs that will snatch up those mckenzies IMO.

Regarding my statement about people not even shooting back when the ASA switched...... Look at some of the people whining the hardest about this change? LOTS of relatively new archers and when you bring up the fact the ASA changed back in the day they don't even respond. I dont really care either way as i am not a 3d guy......But to see this level of negativity for something that has happened before is disturbing. just sayin....and what are all of these people going to do IF, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking the ASA changes too? quit archery all together? These people are making absolute statements.....They have talked themselves into a corner for no reason.


----------



## bigGP

3dbowmaster said:


> I cant wait for the day when an organization goes with shooting 5 Mckenzies, 5 Rhineharts, 5 R&W's, 5 Longhorns and 5 Deltas!!!!!! Man that would be a blast!!!!! Unfortunately I guess I would be the only shooter there considering the way everyone whines about only wanting to shoot either Mckenzies or Rhineharts!!!!! I'd say less than 5% of the people that shoot National tournys ever place in the top 3 anyways, so what the heck does it matter what target you are shooting anyways, obviously 95% of us shooting a certain target every weekend doesnt matter a whole heck of alot, and doesnt help us..lol


DING DING DING DING!!!! Bingo..... What you describe is what 3D is like out here on the Left coast. LMAO


----------



## Kstigall

bigGP said:


> DING DING DING DING!!!! Bingo..... What you describe is what 3D is like out here on the Left coast. LMAO


And that's why it's called the WRONG coast!!!!:grouphug:

A buddy of mine has built up a good stock of Mckenzies. 

I spent some time looking at them the couple of weeks prior to the classic and I'm fairly certain it helped me. But it would not hurt my feelings if another target brand showed up on the tournament trail that was as good or better and cost less overall. It would only help clubs stay afloat.


----------



## Deer Slayer I

the ibo can live without the pro shooters but it cant make it without the amateurs who pay the bills these are the people who spend the money at the shoots not the pros these are the people who buy the products not the pros so why wouldnt you want their input??????? if they would have asked would i pay more at the shoot to shoot the mckenzies it would have been yes i dont get it


----------



## babyhoose

bowtecchip said:


> i say fk it if you can shoot it dont matter what we shoot. Its like starting on an even playing field stop being sush big babies. People need too man up this sight has turned
> into a soap opra its an archery sight people grow a set shut up and bring it. We all got the same amount of time too start judging targets.


x1000


----------



## 300MAG

3dbowmaster said:


> I cant wait for the day when an organization goes with shooting 5 Mckenzies, 5 Rhineharts, 5 R&W's, 5 Longhorns and 5 Deltas!!!!!! Man that would be a blast!!!!! Unfortunately I guess I would be the only shooter there considering the way everyone whines about only wanting to shoot either Mckenzies or Rhineharts!!!!! I'd say less than 5% of the people that shoot National tournys ever place in the top 3 anyways, so what the heck does it matter what target you are shooting anyways, obviously 95% of us shooting a certain target every weekend doesnt matter a whole heck of alot, and doesnt help us..lol


The above makes more sense than having one brand of target to me. It would ALSo make a lot of sense not publicize which ones are going to be at the tournament.


----------



## bigGP

Deer Slayer I said:


> the ibo can live without the pro shooters but it cant make it without the amateurs who pay the bills these are the people who spend the money at the shoots not the pros these are the people who buy the products not the pros so why wouldnt you want their input??????? if they would have asked would i pay more at the shoot to shoot the mckenzies it would have been yes i dont get it


How many shoots do you see out there with these kind of sponsorship dollars from manufactures with NO PRO'S? How many NASCAR races do you see on prime time TV with NONE of the PRO DRIVERS? Why doesn't NBC cover the pick up basketball game at the local gym??? Seriously bro do you really think Archery manufactures would spend the kind of money they do for a local or regional shoot with no Pro's there? Its a PACKAGE. The PRO's are just as necessary as the AM's from an organizational standpoint. The attitude of Pro's don't mean jack is just as ridiculous as saying Am's don't mean anything. Organizations and shoots cant have one without the other if they want the sponsorship $$$$$. come on man


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## field14

300MAG said:


> The above makes more sense than having one brand of target to me. It would ALSo make a lot of sense not publicize which ones are going to be at the tournament.


I agree...STOP giving the answers to the "Test" by annoucing which 20 targets will be used for the entire year...ahead of time. Tell them that since there are XX different targets in the matrix, ANY 20 of those can and will be used at any event, and no two events will be using the SAME 20 targets.
They'd hear some whining and crying from those that have the thousands of bucks to "buy the test" each year...but....let's just see how good people are at "guessing/judging" yardage when the options for any 20 of the myriad of targets are used..UNANNOUNCED and never the same 20 two tournaments in a row!

Mixing brands might not work well from a sponsorship perspective, but...I certainly don't think that they need to tell everyone which 20 targets will be used for the entire tournament season either. Sure would free up the clubs to pretty much use the entire gauntlet of available animals from year to year and not have to temporarily (for how long????) retire some of them every single year and hold them back for who the hedoublesticks long??

About NOT having any Pros...WRONGO moose face! The PROS are indeed needed for the sponsorship monies and the "cream of the crop" perspective. However, I'm NOT a person in favor of the "semi-pro" division at all. Either ante up and go full bore...or you don't get to shoot for money at a 3-D event or an "OPEN" type event in another venue; that is what the term "OPEN" is all about, but, the people in the "OPEN" or Championship are the ONLY ones that shoot for the money; they either ante up, or they shoot for trophies. Get off the porch and run with the big dogs...People will blast me for this opinion, but so be it. 

Also...one more thing....the PROS also need to get out and pound the bricks for sponsorship monies, too. They should not be sitting out there waiting and demanding "larger purses" all the while expecting the ORGANIZATION to do all the championing and running around to get those said purses FOR the Pros. The PROs need to have either a committee or a point person whose job it is to PROmote the PROS, and to get out there and GET those added "purse monies" without depending upon the organization (IBO, ASA, or NFAA) to do it all for the pros.
I cannot believe that LOCAL vendors and such are NOT being polled by either a lead PRO whose job it is to do such a thing, or by the local host club. That money is THERE to be had, all that needs to be done is to get out and ask...Two choices...the potential sponsor will say "YES" or they will say "NO"...nothing to lose by trying.
Blast away, whomever, but you know deep down that this should be the case...if the PROS want 'larger purses'...they gotta get out and help themselves, too.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## J Whittington

tom i disagree with your analogy of stop giving the test.....because everyone that competes has the right to aquire the test of they so choose to make the investment, which in this case is targets. Just because a person has targets, he must still invest the time needed to looking at them, moving them etc...so in regards to your reference to the test, target owners still have to study! but as I stated, everyone has the opportunity to obtain the test....

.I have aquired some Mckenzie targets over the YEARS, through auctions,from individuals, and clubs. I have repaired most of my targets so I can judge them. Aquiring the few targets that I do have was not cheap, thats why I put YEARS! I also have the right to choose whether or not I want to invest in Rineharts for IBO. at this point I choose not to, therefore I will not be attending anymore IBO events. I live in NC, ASA events are usually closer for me to attend, and Mckenzie is the targets for the ASA. So, economics, and common sense is how I reached the decision. 

I have made other post regarding my fear of increasing the current Division of 3D archery (on a national level) the change of targets by the IBO is why I fear this division will take place. boils down to economics and common sense.....I know people will say the brand of targets doesnt make a difference, thats their right to decide. But regardless of what class an archer competes in, the must have access to targets/THE TEST in order to be competitive.


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## hrtlnd164

field14 said:


> I agree...STOP giving the answers to the "Test" by annoucing which 20 targets will be used for the entire year...ahead of time. Tell them that since there are XX different targets in the matrix, ANY 20 of those can and will be used at any event, and no two events will be using the SAME 20 targets.
> They'd hear some whining and crying from those that have the thousands of bucks to "buy the test" each year...but....let's just see how good people are at "guessing/judging" yardage when the options for any 20 of the myriad of targets are used..UNANNOUNCED and never the same 20 two tournaments in a row!
> 
> Mixing brands might not work well from a sponsorship perspective, but...I certainly don't think that they need to tell everyone which 20 targets will be used for the entire tournament season either. Sure would free up the clubs to pretty much use the entire gauntlet of available animals from year to year and not have to temporarily (for how long????) retire some of them every single year and hold them back for who the hedoublesticks long??
> 
> About NOT having any Pros...WRONGO moose face! The PROS are indeed needed for the sponsorship monies and the "cream of the crop" perspective. However, I'm NOT a person in favor of the "semi-pro" division at all. Either ante up and go full bore...or you don't get to shoot for money at a 3-D event or an "OPEN" type event in another venue; that is what the term "OPEN" is all about, but, the people in the "OPEN" or Championship are the ONLY ones that shoot for the money; they either ante up, or they shoot for trophies. Get off the porch and run with the big dogs...People will blast me for this opinion, but so be it.
> 
> Also...one more thing....the PROS also need to get out and pound the bricks for sponsorship monies, too. They should not be sitting out there waiting and demanding "larger purses" all the while expecting the ORGANIZATION to do all the championing and running around to get those said purses FOR the Pros. The PROs need to have either a committee or a point person whose job it is to PROmote the PROS, and to get out there and GET those added "purse monies" without depending upon the organization (IBO, ASA, or NFAA) to do it all for the pros.
> I cannot believe that LOCAL vendors and such are NOT being polled by either a lead PRO whose job it is to do such a thing, or by the local host club. That money is THERE to be had, all that needs to be done is to get out and ask...Two choices...the potential sponsor will say "YES" or they will say "NO"...nothing to lose by trying.
> Blast away, whomever, but you know deep down that this should be the case...if the PROS want 'larger purses'...they gotta get out and help themselves, too.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I agree with everything you said except the first paragragh. It's not a case of the best in the game having a cheat sheet by knowing what targets they have to shoot as much as it is a case that those archers just study harder than the rest. By saying things may be different if no one knew the targets seems to be taking something away from the time and effort those guys put out in order to win. What other archery venue do you shoot that you don't know what target face you will have? Why should it be different for 3-d'ers?


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## field14

hrtlnd164 said:


> I agree with everything you said except the first paragragh. It's not a case of the best in the game having a cheat sheet by knowing what targets they have to shoot as much as it is a case that those archers just study harder than the rest. By saying things may be different if no one knew the targets seems to be taking something away from the time and effort those guys put out in order to win. What other archery venue do you shoot that you don't know what target face you will have? Why should it be different for 3-d'ers?


You have a very valid point, and I see the reasoning..>BUT....since most 3-Ders are convinced that 3-D is ALL about "Judging" yardage, then why not have it so that any of the entire series of animals can crop up at any time and NO TWO TOURNAMENTS during the season would have exactly the same animals used? That would, SPICE IT UP, and at the same time, it wouldn't force those that really want to get in to compete but don't have the FUNDING for the 3-D animals and also to fund up for equipment and registration fees.
If NOBODY knew exactly which animals were going to be shot at any given tournament...it would really make the competition 'level' since the rich and those not so financially well off would be closer to being on the same field.
This would also help out the clubs, too, since they wouldn't be stuck with buying/having on hand "the" 3-D animals announced for that particular year.
Yes, those that buy the animals do STUDY harder...because they have the MONEY to BUY the test; which isn't a very "level" playing field, IMHO. Put some spice into the tournaments by having NOBODY knowing what is going to come up for each event during the year. What you see is what you get. This would also stifle the "have to have "the test" and BUY it in order to be competitive. That may well be turning away people from shooting in the upper echelons or trying to. They don't have the MONEY, so they don't have a CHANCE either...doesn't seem right.
The yardages differ....so should the 3-D animals selected for use at that event. Already have short course and long course....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## nochance

Guys nothing new here. Its in every aspect of life. The rich have more money to buy the things they need\want. Good for them. am I jealous??? hell yes!!! but we have the option of deciding if we're happy with what we have or trying to get more out of life. We all decide with the money we have what is important to us. Do we want to shoot ibo?? Do we want to buy all the targets and get use to sizing them? I cannot afford it and I spend more time judging yardage by ground, trees etc. and of course fishing. I'll be shooting several ibo events this year!


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## J Whittington

Tom I like your idea,,,,I sure would like to see NASCAR, MLB,NFL heck even the archery companies follow one simple rule: a maximum amount that each owner can pay to have a team.....In general, teams that win are the ones that shell out the cabbbage....I would love to see professional sports teams to have a max spend or salary cap....


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## SonnyThomas

J Whittington said:


> Tom I like your idea,,,,I sure would like to see NASCAR, MLB,NFL heck even the archery companies follow one simple rule: a maximum amount that each owner can pay to have a team.....In general, teams that win are the ones that shell out the cabbbage....I would love to see professional sports teams to have a max spend or salary cap....


I sort of agree, but I would ask; Does Dale Jr. have a Daytona track in his back yard?  . me juss had 2.


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## J Whittington

they can buy practice time....access to the test


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## woodsman78

I am reading these threads and I can't believe what I am reading now Class warfare, what the $%#& we are archers I really don't care which target it is as long as all those shooting have to shoot the same target whats the difference, and as far as the rinehardts go a lot of the clubs in the northeast have gone to them it was hard finding a club that shot Mckenzies


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## Pinwheel 12

field14 said:


> You have a very valid point, and I see the reasoning..>BUT....since most 3-Ders are convinced that 3-D is ALL about "Judging" yardage, then why not have it so that any of the entire series of animals can crop up at any time and NO TWO TOURNAMENTS during the season would have exactly the same animals used? That would, SPICE IT UP, and at the same time, it wouldn't force those that really want to get in to compete but don't have the FUNDING for the 3-D animals and also to fund up for equipment and registration fees.
> If NOBODY knew exactly which animals were going to be shot at any given tournament...it would really make the competition 'level' since the rich and those not so financially well off would be closer to being on the same field.
> This would also help out the clubs, too, since they wouldn't be stuck with buying/having on hand "the" 3-D animals announced for that particular year.
> Yes, those that buy the animals do STUDY harder...because they have the MONEY to BUY the test; which isn't a very "level" playing field, IMHO. Put some spice into the tournaments by having NOBODY knowing what is going to come up for each event during the year. What you see is what you get. This would also stifle the "have to have "the test" and BUY it in order to be competitive. That may well be turning away people from shooting in the upper echelons or trying to. They don't have the MONEY, so they don't have a CHANCE either...doesn't seem right.
> The yardages differ....so should the 3-D animals selected for use at that event. Already have short course and long course....
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom D- This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. My own personal rub comes from the fact that we the individual members, along with the sponsor/affiliated clubs, have already spent MANY THOUSANDS on targets to practice for IBO events on, and now suddenly, and simply because the IBO itself may save a few bucks in their pocket, they are trying to force me and others into buying new targets,(realistically, to level the field you need to, don't kid yourselves) so their new found buddies at Rinehart can also make a few bucks...so guess what.... the only ones SPENDING/ LOSING money in this scenario is me, other IBO members, and sponsor/affiliated clubs! It has nothing to do with target brand, it has to do with respect from, and awareness by the IBO that anyone who has been serious about the IBO in recent years already has THOUSANDS (some only hundreds, doesn't matter) invested in targets, and most are not going to just burn them and run out to buy Rineharts so the IBO and Rinehart can make/save some money...... and then we have to take the time to learn them also, etc.....ludicrous....especially if/when there is another game in town that still honors the same targets that we already have/shoot. THAT is as simple a fact as 2+2=4. I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote, this would never have come up to begin with. JMHO...


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## Bigjono

Apart from the worlds and trad worlds, I have never shot at or even come across a club or range that only has one brand of target. I just shoot what's in front of me and enjoy the course.


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## Jame

Pinwheel 12 said:


> Tom D- This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. My own personal rub comes from the fact that we the individual members, along with the sponsor/affiliated clubs, have already spent MANY THOUSANDS on targets to practice for IBO events on, and now suddenly, and simply because the IBO itself may save a few bucks in their pocket, they are trying to force me and others into buying new targets,(realistically, to level the field you need to, don't kid yourselves) so their new found buddies at Rinehart can also make a few bucks...so guess what.... the only ones SPENDING/ LOSING money in this scenario is me, other IBO members, and sponsor/affiliated clubs! It has nothing to do with target brand, it has to do with respect from, and awareness by the IBO that anyone who has been serious about the IBO in recent years already has THOUSANDS (some only hundreds, doesn't matter) invested in targets, and most are not going to just burn them and run out to buy Rineharts so the IBO and Rinehart can make/save some money...... and then we have to take the time to learn them also, etc.....ludicrous....especially if/when there is another game in town that still honors the same targets that we already have/shoot. THAT is as simple a fact as 2+2=4. I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote, this would never have come up to begin with. JMHO...


Agreed


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## Jame

Pinwheel 12 said:


> Tom D- This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. My own personal rub comes from the fact that we the individual members, along with the sponsor/affiliated clubs, have already spent MANY THOUSANDS on targets to practice for IBO events on, and now suddenly, and simply because the IBO itself may save a few bucks in their pocket, they are trying to force me and others into buying new targets,(realistically, to level the field you need to, don't kid yourselves) so their new found buddies at Rinehart can also make a few bucks...so guess what.... the only ones SPENDING/ LOSING money in this scenario is me, other IBO members, and sponsor/affiliated clubs! It has nothing to do with target brand, it has to do with respect from, and awareness by the IBO that anyone who has been serious about the IBO in recent years already has THOUSANDS (some only hundreds, doesn't matter) invested in targets, and most are not going to just burn them and run out to buy Rineharts so the IBO and Rinehart can make/save some money...... and then we have to take the time to learn them also, etc.....ludicrous....especially if/when there is another game in town that still honors the same targets that we already have/shoot. THAT is as simple a fact as 2+2=4. I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote, this would never have come up to begin with. JMHO...


spot on


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## SonnyThomas

Pinwheel 12 said:


> ////// This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. ...
> 
> I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote,


People having buying McKenzies for McKenzie's gain and now it's wrong for Rinehart to do the same thing?
Seems people have been complaining of dues being raised and this regardless of organization. I believe there was Post in 3D forums regarding this. 
What archery organization allows members to vote on such things?


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## hoytxcutter

All the clubs in my area would have to give up on the 3D shots if they only depended on IBO shooters. Facts are there are many more shooters that do not shoot any circuit than there is that do. Most could care less what target they are shooting.


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## CamoFreak117

Your calling BS because youve never shot Rinehart. Self healing foam. The things last forever.


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## ahcnc

I WAS one of those shooters that would only shoot McKenzies because I didn't want the Rhineharts to mess with my head!! After hearing about the big switch...A buddy and I went and shot a Rhinehart course today...Guess what!!!! The world didn't come to an end!!!! I still had a good time shooting my bow. I think we're all gonna be OK!!!:wink:


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## ohiobullseye

I don't see a problem with switching brands. I will shoot any foam 3d target and I think it's silly to say that cause IBO switched to Rhinehart targets that I will quit shooting there tournaments. I will continue to shoot the Triple Crown, the Worlds, and some of the ASA 3d tournaments.


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## Deer Slayer I

s


bigGP said:


> How many shoots do you see out there with these kind of sponsorship dollars from manufactures with NO PRO'S? How many NASCAR races do you see on prime time TV with NONE of the PRO DRIVERS? Why doesn't NBC cover the pick up basketball game at the local gym??? Seriously bro do you really think Archery manufactures would spend the kind of money they do for a local or regional shoot with no Pro's there? Its a PACKAGE. The PRO's are just as necessary as the AM's from an organizational standpoint. The attitude of Pro's don't mean jack is just as ridiculous as saying Am's don't mean anything. Organizations and shoots cant have one without the other if they want the sponsorship $$$$$. come on man


sorry this isnt NASCAR and theres no prime tv no NBC and sorry if you were at all <dont know> it was a sad display of dealers the people buying their product is all that matters and i think its starting to show!


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## field14

Pinwheel 12 said:


> Tom D- This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. My own personal rub comes from the fact that we the individual members, along with the sponsor/affiliated clubs, have already spent MANY THOUSANDS on targets to practice for IBO events on, and now suddenly, and simply because the IBO itself may save a few bucks in their pocket, they are trying to force me and others into buying new targets,(realistically, to level the field you need to, don't kid yourselves) so their new found buddies at Rinehart can also make a few bucks...so guess what.... the only ones SPENDING/ LOSING money in this scenario is me, other IBO members, and sponsor/affiliated clubs! It has nothing to do with target brand, it has to do with respect from, and awareness by the IBO that anyone who has been serious about the IBO in recent years already has THOUSANDS (some only hundreds, doesn't matter) invested in targets, and most are not going to just burn them and run out to buy Rineharts so the IBO and Rinehart can make/save some money...... and then we have to take the time to learn them also, etc.....ludicrous....especially if/when there is another game in town that still honors the same targets that we already have/shoot. THAT is as simple a fact as 2+2=4. I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote, this would never have come up to begin with. JMHO...


I see your point, Kevin. No matter which change was made, it wouldn't have been the "right move" anyways. The expenses to the clubs to changeover from one to the other will be considerable. I would think that many clubs will "bag it" and maybe do a split of "old McKenzies" along with some "new" Rinharts that first year.
It is stupid to put ALL the McKenzies into storage and not use them up just cuz....

I still do think, however, that NOT announcing which 20 targets WILL be used is the way to go. Get to the course, "read 'em and weep". Take what comes out of ANY of the arsenal of targets that are available from Rinehart or McKenzie, or whatever.
We all know there is "money in mind" in this move and it is likely without concern for the participants or the host clubs...

On the other hand, there have been rumblings about this change from McKenzies to Rineharts or Deltas for several years now...It just finally came to pass. It would have happened sooner or later, and will happen again, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## RickT

The IBO has said they will use 25 of the targets Rhinehart produces. In the past the IBO has NOT announced which targets will be on the courses and I don't expect them to do that now.


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## jwolfe78

RickT said:


> The IBO has said they will use 25 of the targets Rhinehart produces. In the past the IBO has NOT announced which targets will be on the courses and I don't expect them to do that now.


Which 25??


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## RickT

The announcement didn't say. They don't announce which targets they use for the courses. Just remember' for the Triple Crown shoots the two smallest targets are the full strut turkey and the javelina. At the Worlds the smallest I've seen is the turkey. Look at Rhinehart's website and you'll find around 30 targets that are pretty equal to the Mckenzie's we're accustomed to seeing. The target manufacturer may change but I think size wise the targets are going to be pretty close to what they were.


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## bandit69

Taken from the IBO site https://www.ibo.net/newsDetail.php?n=113


Beginning in 2013, all 20-target ranges at its IBO Indoor World Championship, IBO Southern Triple Crown, IBO Traditional World, IBO National Championship Triple Crown and IBO World Championship will be comprised of a selection of approximately 25 different Rinehart 3-D wildlife targets.

“This partnership allows the IBO to provide targets of the highest quality while maintaining our focus to promote, encourage and foster the sport of bowhunting,” said IBO president Bryan Marcum. “We look forward to a mutually beneficial relationship between everyone affiliated with Rinehart Targets and the IBO from now through 2017.”

_IBO affiliate clubs interested in obtaining Rinehart Targets like those that will be used at national IBO events, may contact IBO headquarters._

For information on individual or club associate IBO memberships, contact the International Bowhunting Organization at P.O. Box 398, Vermilion, OH 44089 (440) 967-2137.


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## Pinwheel 12

field14 said:


> I see your point, Kevin. No matter which change was made, it wouldn't have been the "right move" anyways. The expenses to the clubs to changeover from one to the other will be considerable. I would think that many clubs will "bag it" and maybe do a split of "old McKenzies" along with some "new" Rinharts that first year.
> It is stupid to put ALL the McKenzies into storage and not use them up just cuz....
> 
> I still do think, however, that NOT announcing which 20 targets WILL be used is the way to go. Get to the course, "read 'em and weep". Take what comes out of ANY of the arsenal of targets that are available from Rinehart or McKenzie, or whatever.
> We all know there is "money in mind" in this move and it is likely without concern for the participants or the host clubs...
> 
> On the other hand, there have been rumblings about this change from McKenzies to Rineharts or Deltas for several years now...It just finally came to pass. It would have happened sooner or later, and will happen again, too.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom- No matter which targets are used, serious shooters usually buy some targets to "learn"...this has been the norm since before the IBO, and is just the way it is. That is why Rinehart offered free targets, because they knew that, and were banking on it. I have always been a supporter of the IBO too, I know you already know that.. So, let me give you an example of what this change entails to the members, shops, and clubs.....last year, I and others spoke with a couple of area clubs and persuaded them to buy McK's to align themselves with the IBO, and that way the IBO shooters would have a wider variety of McK ranges to shoot and practice on in this area.. One club spent close to $7k, and the other close to $8k in targets. That's $15k just from those two clubs alone that's now virtually down the tubes, if they want to stay aligned with the IBO... not to mention my and others' own thousands spent in the past year on individual XT targets to add to our own practice ranges, again in this local area alone. To state that these two clubs as well as others of us are now feeling a bit shafted, is an understatement. I am certain that this has happened elsewhere as well. The rumblings you heard were in fact rumblings, because I spoke to someone directly in the know last year, in person, and they stated that there was no intent at the time to go away from McK's. (Oh and btw, Delta now owns McK) Things change, sure, but again, why should these changes happen without forethought, and/or comunication/discussion? Again, this has nothing to do with Rinehart itself, either. The name could be Longhorn, or Glendel, or Cloud, or Pottenger (remember them?) for that matter... the bottom line is that due to a complete lack of a heads up, many people who are/were strong IBO supporters are now suddenly out a considerable amount of money, and that just plain doesn't sit well, especially in this economy.. I for one will not be buying any other brand of target when I already have a fleet of new McK's to shoot, and neither will other individuals and the clubs that have done the same. So gee, where will we go?? The way I see it, the IBO is effectively alienating it's own membership, due only to the fact that it wanted to save a few grand. Well guess what... the clubs and individuals like to save money, too, not spend more... And again, IF it was put up for discussion/vote either online or at the shoots, or IF $ options were offered for 2013 membership to offset price of McK targets, well, again, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. However.. As it stands, the IBO is going to lose a boatload of people and clubs that they cannot afford to lose. That is the bottom line, and honestly, it sux... because I do not want to be forced to shoot only ASA. All that was needed was a bit of forethought, communication, and discussion, BEFORE pulling the trigger, (IBO website? Here? Anywhere? Class?? Bueller??) and they probably wouldn't have lost anyone. JMHO.


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## rharper

Just some food for thought. What is the ACTUAL percentage of guys that frequent a club's 3D course actually participate in IBO or ASA events? If that number is low, then the clubs have no worries about switching to another brand of target because they won't lose much traffic at all. While it definitely affects guys that went out and bought their own personal target's for their backyard, does it REALLY affect the survivability of a club or does it hurt the feelings a few that feel they are at a disadvantage because a target slightly changes in size? Playing devils advocate a bit. I personally can see both sides of the coin here.


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## Garceau

I shot Illinois state ibo championship this summer. 

They were on Rineharts!


Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## SonnyThomas

rharper said:


> Just some food for thought. What is the ACTUAL percentage of guys that frequent a club's 3D course actually participate in IBO or ASA events? If that number is low, then the clubs have no worries about switching to another brand of target because they won't lose much traffic at all. While it definitely affects guys that went out and bought their own personal target's for their backyard, does it REALLY affect the survivability of a club or does it hurt the feelings a few that feel they are at a disadvantage because a target slightly changes in size? Playing devils advocate a bit. I personally can see both sides of the coin here.


For my area, mostly ASA shooters, the percentage is in the tenths. Our club draws 140 per event and I'll bet there isn't 5 who shoot ASA events and that's counting me, so .0357%.
This is some of where 300Mag and a couple of us went at it. There's not enough ASA shooters to worry about. I went to the club mentioned in our replies this weekend, all McKenzies. I was it, the only ASA member who competes. I checked on 3 other ASA members. They went "across town" and shot at this club that has all Rineharts! Okay, granted these ASA shooters are not on the National circuit, maybe Metropolis every so often, but they do shoot the ASA sanctioned State events.

Clubs and McKenzie targets. Can't see where they will go in the hole if they have regular 3Ds. Sure as H___ they are not hosting a IBO Qualifier, State Championship or Triple Crown every event.

Did some size checks, but these should do; McKenzie black bear, 28.5" - Rinehart black bear, 29". McKenzie HD buck, 37" - Rinehart big buck, 37". 
So it looks like if the IBO and Rinehart cooperate height shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## J Whittington

The truth has been spoken!



Pinwheel 12 said:


> Tom D- This whole thing is based on nothing more than a case of "OK friend,you scratch my back", I'll scratch yours". Rinehart has offered free targets to the IBO in hopes that IBO members and clubs will in turn purchase ranges and individual targets from them to practice on. That's it, that simple. My own personal rub comes from the fact that we the individual members, along with the sponsor/affiliated clubs, have already spent MANY THOUSANDS on targets to practice for IBO events on, and now suddenly, and simply because the IBO itself may save a few bucks in their pocket, they are trying to force me and others into buying new targets,(realistically, to level the field you need to, don't kid yourselves) so their new found buddies at Rinehart can also make a few bucks...so guess what.... the only ones SPENDING/ LOSING money in this scenario is me, other IBO members, and sponsor/affiliated clubs! It has nothing to do with target brand, it has to do with respect from, and awareness by the IBO that anyone who has been serious about the IBO in recent years already has THOUSANDS (some only hundreds, doesn't matter) invested in targets, and most are not going to just burn them and run out to buy Rineharts so the IBO and Rinehart can make/save some money...... and then we have to take the time to learn them also, etc.....ludicrous....especially if/when there is another game in town that still honors the same targets that we already have/shoot. THAT is as simple a fact as 2+2=4. I am positive that if the IBO raised membership dues to help offset the purchase of the McK's and/or put it up for membership vote, this would never have come up to begin with. JMHO...


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## carlosii

more transparency as to how decisions are made and who makes them.


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## noXcuses

Our club had a shoot the week before the Georgia ibo this year. Our club runs mckenzies exclusively. I live in an ibo
Area. We had 110 shooters that shoot, with 15 of them being non tournament shooters. So the tournament shooters help our club
A lot. Our other shoots are split 50/50 50 non tourn and 50 tournament mainly ibo. Our tournament guys are there every shoot not the hunters. 

As a club we are not switching to reinhart. We dont have the funds because we just purchased 30 xt targets.


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## bigGP

Deer Slayer I said:


> s
> 
> sorry this isnt NASCAR and theres no prime tv no NBC and sorry if you were at all <dont know> it was a sad display of dealers the people buying their product is all that matters and i think its starting to show!


exactly!!!!! We have NO non endemic sponsors so the Archery manufactures foot the entire bill. How many shoot's that have ZERO pro's show up or no pro class all together have 10's of thousands of dollars in sponsorship's from manufactures? I am telling you man it takes BOTH Pro's and Am's to make these big national shoots play. If every Pro leaves.....so does the big sponsorship dollars....If the Am's go away so does the reason for manufactures to even be there.


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## longbowdude

Sounds like some of you should pick up a trad bow. Doesn't matter what target you shoot. All you need to judge is 30 yards if your even judging yardage. No umbrellas needed and challenging terrain is a must. No wait times. Shoot 40 targets in a couple of hours. Its still possible to shoot a world champs and have fun.


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## Dartonman

Oh....you mean the guys who come with 50 arrows and leave with 30? Yeah that sounds like fun:wink: teasing of course


Pinwheel nailed it...IBO thinks about IBO and directors of IBO think about their host club's interest. Tournament shooters finance the arrangement. I'd be real curious to see the balance sheets to see what % of the budget this "hunting" organization actually spent on hunting interests


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## Dan-0

Pinwheel 12 said:


> Tom- No matter which targets are used, serious shooters usually buy some targets to "learn"...this has been the norm since before the IBO, and is just the way it is. That is why Rinehart offered free targets, because they knew that, and were banking on it. I have always been a supporter of the IBO too, I know you already know that.. So, let me give you an example of what this change entails to the members, shops, and clubs.....last year, I and others spoke with a couple of area clubs and persuaded them to buy McK's to align themselves with the IBO, and that way the IBO shooters would have a wider variety of McK ranges to shoot and practice on in this area.. One club spent close to $7k, and the other close to $8k in targets. That's $15k just from those two clubs alone that's now virtually down the tubes, if they want to stay aligned with the IBO... not to mention my and others' own thousands spent in the past year on individual XT targets to add to our own practice ranges, again in this local area alone. To state that these two clubs as well as others of us are now feeling a bit shafted, is an understatement. I am certain that this has happened elsewhere as well. The rumblings you heard were in fact rumblings, because I spoke to someone directly in the know last year, in person, and they stated that there was no intent at the time to go away from McK's. (Oh and btw, Delta now owns McK) Things change, sure, but again, why should these changes happen without forethought, and/or comunication/discussion? Again, this has nothing to do with Rinehart itself, either. The name could be Longhorn, or Glendel, or Cloud, or Pottenger (remember them?) for that matter... the bottom line is that due to a complete lack of a heads up, many people who are/were strong IBO supporters are now suddenly out a considerable amount of money, and that just plain doesn't sit well, especially in this economy.. I for one will not be buying any other brand of target when I already have a fleet of new McK's to shoot, and neither will other individuals and the clubs that have done the same. So gee, where will we go?? The way I see it, the IBO is effectively alienating it's own membership, due only to the fact that it wanted to save a few grand. Well guess what... the clubs and individuals like to save money, too, not spend more... And again, IF it was put up for discussion/vote either online or at the shoots, or IF $ options were offered for 2013 membership to offset price of McK targets, well, again, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. However.. As it stands, the IBO is going to lose a boatload of people and clubs that they cannot afford to lose. That is the bottom line, and honestly, it sux... because I do not want to be forced to shoot only ASA. All that was needed was a bit of forethought, communication, and discussion, BEFORE pulling the trigger, (IBO website? Here? Anywhere? Class?? Bueller??) and they probably wouldn't have lost anyone. JMHO.


Well said. Under the surface, it's gonna be a problem for clubs and unless club members and all shooters foot the bill, shooters will have fewer options and less places to shoot on the weekends. Let's hope they pony up and pay more $ per shoot and show patience by tolerating shooting targets they won't see in true competititions for a while.


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## Dartonman

If they continue with the mentality of setting the 55yarders next year with these oddball critters I'll guarantee that arrow sales will increase. 

I'll just save my $275/shoot and use it toward airfare to the ASA's


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## SonnyThomas

carlosii said:


> more transparency as to how decisions are made and who makes them.


Transparency? You mean all them cheap offers from McKenzie I get in the ASA club packets and the ASA Tour Guide? Dang near half price listed on their web site.


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## bhtr3d

Dartonman said:


> If they continue with the mentality of setting the 55yarders next year with these oddball critters I'll guarantee that arrow sales will increase.
> 
> I'll just save my $275/shoot and use it toward airfare to the ASA's


smart man.....just so ya know.... cheap flights on southwest from pitt and philly to name a few....like to tampa and orlando....


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## field14

Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say.... 
First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?

The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!

The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.

It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?

Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?

MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???

Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Dartonman

Isn't that "why" they have so many different classes?...to cater to the masses...and the whiners and complainers



field14 said:


> Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say....
> First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?
> 
> The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
> What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!
> 
> The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
> It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?
> 
> Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?
> 
> MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???
> 
> Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bigjono

Field14, you should see the qualifier here in Ontario. Old targets, mixed brands, bad repairs with kill zones moved, it's a disgrace. To avoid that I went over to NY to qualify this year and guess what, it was exactly the same.
I don't care what brand I shoot (though I do prefer Rinehart) I just think that world qualifier courses should meet a minimum standard as far as layout and target condition goes.


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## Kstigall

I just previewed Rineharts web site and they have PLENTY of targets that are not novelty type targets, i.e baboons and dinosaurs. I really can't understand why so many people keep knocking Rinehart because they have some "novelty" targets. They have a variety of "typical" 3D targets such as deer, bear, boar, antelope, sheep, goat, elk, leopard, cougar, wolf and turkeys. Picking 25 good targets would be nooooo problem.


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## bhtr3d

I just thought I would ask something.....they said that there will be a ceo....and a president.....with that being said....will this then mean that instead of one payroll for that position.... is now going to be two payroll positions from that event.????..


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## bsharkey

i hear these will be on the the MBO and FBO all courses


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## dartshooter

u are shooting at a spot.Quit whinning and learn new ways to shoot and judge.If this makes people quit shooting ibos then u didnt have passion for the sport of it anyway.When they change our laws in hunting do we have choice of that either,no but we still hunt dont we.


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## rock77

dartshooter said:


> u are shooting at a spot.Quit whinning and learn new ways to shoot and judge.If this makes people quit shooting ibos then u didnt have passion for the sport of it anyway.When they change our laws in hunting do we have choice of that either,no but we still hunt dont we.


Exactly!! 
When Indiana went to the one buck a year rule I quit hunting..... NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hoytxcutter

Well said. In this area it is not the IBO or ASA shooters that pay the bills. If it was not for the ones that only shoot #D for hunting practice there would not be any clubs holding 3D shoots.


field14 said:


> Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say....
> First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?
> 
> The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
> What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!
> 
> The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
> It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?
> 
> Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?
> 
> MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???
> 
> Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## SonnyThomas

Like another said, well said, Tom.... 
.


field14 said:


> Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say....
> First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?
> 
> The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
> What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!
> 
> The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
> It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?
> 
> Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?
> 
> MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???
> 
> Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


.
.
Again, well said, but to elaborate....

Indeed it seems as if there is a huge mark up on targets compared to offers made to or through other organizations. One offer I had from McKenzie was something like $245 for their Mule deer plus a extra center. That is cheap. Still, most all of the "offered" targets by McKenzie were on their national tour. Tom, you and I know you pay one price for one item and a lot less for the same item we buy ten items. It's done across the archery board. I've purchased items for our club from paper targets to target bags and the more we bought the cheaper the price.
I believe these are current retail prices; McKenzie mule deer - $484.99. Rinehart mule deer - $588.00.
Of course, for both there are dealer prices, club prices and range/group prices. 

Our club did once set a white stake, "Championship stake" as you define. And like you said only a few shot from it...maybe 2 to 5 at the most. Now, for our club that meant the setting of a extra 40 stakes. Okay, we normally set 4 stakes per lane or 160 stakes. Throw in the "Championship stake" and number of stakes jumped to 200. It was soon done away with. Of course, people who wish to shoot farther back only have to step back.
National shooters that attend our 3D shoots is less than one considering the two I know don't shoot every club shoot. And it's the same for (ain't picking on) "state competing" ASA shooters, less than 5 - more like than less than 3. This is our area, not noting other areas.

And again you are correct on setting a local 3D course. The vast majority of a club's shooters do not shoot State or National events. The average joe does indeed pay the way. For regular events clubs should set the course so average joes can shoot a descent score and feel better about themselves (and they'll be back). Good shooters normally always shoot a good score regardless of how the course is set up. Looking at past scores it well shows the top 3 to 5 shooters are always at the top and this regardless of class.
About 8 years of scores on hand shows this.

And it's just as true for most States for their Championships. The vast majority do not shoot on the National circuit.

You are correct on targets used for our state's Qualifiers. The African Lion is not on the National circuit, but I shot at least one this year and I've shot other targets in other Qualifiers that were not on the National circuit. Same for scoring zones. We shot targets where we scored the IBO center ring.


----------



## wvlongshot

If all the top shooters don't show up to shoot all these nasty & evil targets some of the other good shooters will be able to walk up the podium steps I guess.


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## field14

Unfortunately, however, in some clubs/areas, and I've seen this more than once in the many clubs/areas I've shot and lived in over the years....the "top guns" have often been given the priority and are catered to! They are a bit more aggressive and out-spoken, and oft times their arguments are enough to sway the votes, and next thing you know the courses are being set up so the "top guns" are able to "get ready" for their upcoming big tournament. Then, after a very short time, the average joes figure this out and just up and quit coming!!!

It happened, too, in the NFAA way back when...the Top guns wanted more separation of their scores from the average joes, so the entire target was changed to accommodate it. Of course, over the years, this has resulted in a much higher caliber of shooter that is more accurate. This is a good thing, because so many are hunters, and now they are able to put the arrow into the boiler instead of just hitting a "pie plate" at 20 yards.

However, the top guns really shouldn't be allowed to dictate how the 3-D courses are set up. There is no reason to set the course up like they do for a National or Regional level tournament! Making it "tough" for the top guns in essence makes it exceedingly tough for the average joe, if not, in many cases impossible for the joes. Like Sonny says...those additional stakes also create problems with additional clearing of brush, mowing, placement of bow racks, and the additional placement of those extra shooting stakes too. For only 5or 6 shooters? Since when does the MINORITY rule? Whoops...it is happening all over the country....but you get my drift?

The average joes pay the bills in the archery clubs...the "hot dogs" are only a few in number. Have to set the courses to bring in the average joes and keep them happy and coming back. Setting the courses up "tough" to stop the hot dogs from shooting higher scores or so the hot dogs can get ready...is akin to suicide, IMHO.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Spaur7007

I think we all need to give it a chance. I can't imagine they will put jackolopes and cobras at the nationals and world shoot. They have a ton of good targets that I hardly see.


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## shootist

Remember, if you loudly and proudly state that you have no plans to cater to tournament shooters, then don't complain when tournament shooters don't show up. I have routinely driven 2 hours to shoot a local event if it is a good one, but I have little interest in traveling any distance to shoot at an event that doesn't help prepare me for national tournaments. My family used to operate a range here in Southern IL and we always turned out good numbers. We catered to both local and national level shooters. We probably got about 5-10 shooters per month that would shoot the "long stake". For us, 5-10 shooters was worth catering to. 

Believe me, I'm not complaining about it either. If you run a shoot and you want to set most of the targets between 20-30 yards, go for it. I won't hold it against you. Just don't hold it against me when I choose not to spend my money at your range. I'll go elsewhere.


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## EROS

When I would set our range up I always felt I got it right when the hunter stake scores ranged from 238 to 252 on a 25 target range. This was always the largest group of shooters. On a 100 person weekend the break down was 65 hunter a & b 20 open the rest a blend of unlimited , ladies, youth.


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## Kstigall

EROS said:


> When I would set our range up I always felt I got it right when the hunter stake scores ranged from 238 to 252 on a 25 target range. This was always the largest group of shooters. On a 100 person weekend the break down was 65 hunter a & b 20 open the rest a blend of unlimited , ladies, youth.


And that is why you had a top notch course every shoot. thanks


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## Pinwheel 12

field14 said:


> Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say....
> First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?
> 
> The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
> What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!
> 
> The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
> It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?
> 
> Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?
> 
> MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???
> 
> Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom- This is all fine and well if you are just dinking and dunking locally. But that simply doesn't apply here, because we are talking about the IBO organization switching targets for THEIR events..... not local Joe courses and clubs, but rather the IBO shooters and IBO affiliated clubs who bought in and already heavily invested in aligning with the organization. Thus, it directly affects everyone who already shoots, sponsors, or is affiliated with, the IBO. That's it. Local clubs can and do whatever they wish, but they are not the primary discussion topic here. (hence your probable thought on "hijacking". The rest of your post is quite sound, and I agree that courses should be set accordingly for the Joe shooters, but that doesn't mean that the top gun stake should not be "tough", either, we all work our way up the ladder, and much like any other competitive sport, soe can hack it at the top, and some can't, simple as that. Not everyone can win....tho they admittedly have it pretty well segregated nowadays so that most anyone can find a niche....jmho


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## IRISH_11

field14 said:


> Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say....
> First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?
> 
> The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
> What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!
> 
> The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
> It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?
> 
> Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?
> 
> MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???
> 
> Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Spoken like a true Democrat!


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## IRISH_11

I don't know where or what local shoots all you guys and gals have been attending lately, but the ones I have been going to are comprised of people that do travel to the IBO shoots. I'm not talking about the hot dogs either. I know lots of families that enjoy traveling and spending a four day weekend together shooting the National shoots.

Field-14, what is wrong with a tough course? Last time I checked most local shoots have classes. If you don't want to shoot a tough course then put your skirt on and get on up to the yellow stake. If your man enough to shoot the blue stake then shoot it. Most local clubs at least in the Midwest are IBO affiliated clubs and the rules state that for the blue stake the range is approximately 50 yds. That being said I do not comprehend all your comments about people having older slower bows or just being hunters and not Big Dogs. There is a class for every type of shooter you mentioned. Maybe your local club should have the rules posted so people know what class they need to sign up for. Yourself and some others on here sound like a bunch of has beens that never were.


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## bsharkey

" Originally Posted by field14 
Don't intend on hijacking...but I don't know how else to say what I'm about to say.... 
First, if MacKenzie or Rinehart can sell them for half "retail' price or less and still make money, then why is the 'retail price' so high in the first place?

The thing is that the percentage of shooters that travel to attend the bigger IBO and ASA events is miniscule compared to the average joe that is coming to the 3-D shoots to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Yet, time and time and time again...the courses are being set up to the whims of the ASA/IGO "big guns", much to the chagrin of the average joes. Many clubs do indeed set up longer stakes for "Championship" shooters, which is just fine.
What happens there, however, is that people have egos and they think they can muster up and suddenly step up to an A+ game when they haven't gotten their A or B game together yet. They try the championship stakes and then pee and moan at the organizers that the course is too tough!

The other problem is that so many clubs think it is "cool" to have people coming off the course saying, "Wow was that every a TOUGH course". Seems that many clubs think that making it "Tough" for the ASA/IBO traveling shooters is the thing to do; when in reality, IMHO, it is the wrong thing to do and is a dis-service to the average joes that far outnumber the traveling IBO/ASA competitors, probably 10 or 15 to one.

It doesn't take long for the "tough course" moniker to start to take a toll on participation. A course can be made challenging without increasing the distances or making people try to shoot thru a tiny hole in the brush, or to thread the needle to PART of the 10 or 12-ring. So often people setting up the course forget about the slower bows, the shorter statured people, the left handed shooters, the women shooters, and etc. They toss the stake down, never checking all the angles to make sure that short or tall there is a clear path to the kill zone on all the animals, left or right handed, there is a clear path to the kill zone from either side's perspective. They fail to cover the fact that there are people out there that do not shoot HOT ROD bows of 300-350 fps, or for ASA, 270 fps or better! They don't make allowances for overhanging junk that only the FAST bows are going to get under in a clear path to the target.
It isn't about having a TOUGH course...it is about having a "challenging" course that is fair for everyone competing in the event. I dare to say that the vast majority of the time, a "challenging" course for the Average Joe will NOT be "cleaned" by the traveling IBO/ASA big gun, so what is the problem and why set up the toughest course you can to try to hold down the scores of the local big guns?

Why cater to the 5 or 6 that want to 'get ready' for the next IBO or ASA big event at the expense of the rest of the shooters that might attend?

MacKenzies or Rineharts shouldn't matter for the LOCAL shoots...If it is an official "qualifier" then, yes, it might matter, but I hear tell that even some of the qualifiers don't use the "20 targets in the test", or even the correct brand of targets???

Just sayin'....the average joes pay the bills and it should be set up with targets, regardless of brand that make it challenging for the AVERAGE shooter and not try to make it TOUGH for the IBO/ASA types that travel; because that makes it next to impossible for the average joes, even with the separation for championship stakes.

field14 (Tom D.)"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here ya go sport


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## J Whittington

Irish, IMHO based on the post ive read, field doesnt like 3D archery.


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## SonnyThomas

J Whittington said:


> Irish, IMHO based on the post ive read, field doesnt like 3D archery.


I've seen him on the 3D course....just not all that often.

As with all posts over targets and whatever, what gets things stupid in these discussions is shooting local level and shooting national level. And it well seems national level shooters could give a rat's azzz about the vast majority of shooters that shoot local level 3D. Case in point, check the ASA McKenzie target Post. Some jackazz wondered why the center X ring wasn't just done away with. Just like the ASA is the only organization in the dammm world. The center X ring is used by the NFAA and by tons of clubs throughout the nation. Do away with the center X ring and pizzzzz off virtually every NFAA and local level 3D shooter? Now that's really stupid.....


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## shootist

SonnyThomas said:


> And it well seems national level shooters could give a rat's azzz about the vast majority of shooters that shoot local level 3D


Actually, based on your posts, it is quite the opposite. You openly state that national shooters aren't worth catering to, and then complain that very few national shooters show up at your shoots.

I'm going to offer you a little free advise. If I were your club, I would start setting a long stake next year. The past few years you haven't had targets that any of the national events had. Now, you have all the targets that IBO shoots and most clubs don't. That should give you a competitive advantage. My guess is that if you set a "long stake", you will pick up a good number of IBO national shooters at your club events.


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## bowjoe1800

At our club and most other clubs around the area, we have the "Local Joe" and very popular hunter stake. 35 YARD MAX!! How do you set up a TOUGH course, no obstructions in kill or wound area, with that max distance? Tough enough to keep someone from coming back? 80% of the registered shooters sign up in this class. That is fine and dandy but you have guys, quite a few for that matter, that just camp out in this class. They won't try to move up to MBO, MBR, or another class that shoots out to 45 or 50 yds. We rarely have a shot past 45. This is one reason our targets get shot out alot quicker than a few years back, before there was a hunter class. We have very few that shoot off the orange stake, our farthest, and most of us are least 45 years old, some older. I am not griping about the Local Joe or hunter class, it is great. I just wish the better than average guys in this class from our area would try to UP their game, move to the longer yardage classes and give us old farts, the ones that attend National Shoots, some new competition.


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## shootist

bowjoe1800 said:


> At our club and most other clubs around the area, we have the "Local Joe" and very popular hunter stake. 35 YARD MAX!! How do you set up a TOUGH course, no obstructions in kill or wound area, with that max distance? Tough enough to keep someone from coming back? 80% of the registered shooters sign up in this class. That is fine and dandy but you have guys, quite a few for that matter, that just camp out in this class. They won't try to move up to MBO, MBR, or another class that shoots out to 45 or 50 yds. We rarely have a shot past 45. This is one reason our targets get shot out alot quicker than a few years back, before there was a hunter class. We have very few that shoot off the orange stake, our farthest, and most of us are least 45 years old, some older. I am not griping about the Local Joe or hunter class, it is great. I just wish the better than average guys in this class from our area would try to UP their game, move to the longer yardage classes and give us old farts, the ones that attend National Shoots, some new competition.


I don't know, that is a tough deal. Maybe a move-out rule of some sort?


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## SonnyThomas

shootist said:


> Actually, based on your posts, it is quite the opposite. You openly state that national shooters aren't worth catering to, and then complain that very few national shooters show up at your shoots.
> 
> I'm going to offer you a little free advise. If I were your club, I would start setting a long stake next year. The past few years you haven't had targets that any of the national events had. Now, you have all the targets that IBO shoots and most clubs don't. That should give you a competitive advantage. My guess is that if you set a "long stake", you will pick up a good number of IBO national shooters at your club events.


You didn't see where I complained. I stated a fact, we have only one national shooter that's shoots nationals on a regular basis and he is a member. He is also are ASA Area Rep. A club shouldn't cater to one shooter and I wouldn't expect it to cater just to 2 or 3 for that matter. And as for ASA national shooters, our club as all Rineharts. And I doubt that national shooters would complain of our comp stake distances beings our max is supposed to be 45 yards, but 50 yards is not uncommon. Just like any club we have only certain areas where we can have a 45 yard stake, but I'd say may 1/3 to 1/2 can be. Who shoots from out comp stake; All Adults and Young Adults in Free Style (movable sights) and Bowhunter Free Style (fixed sights) which is our largest class. 
Beings our club draws a average of 140 shooters per monthly event and has been known to draw 200+ I don't think our club needs your advice.


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## carlosii

i'd sure like to see the ibo move a bit toward the asa format. i like the sims, the team shoot (pro/am), and the class shoot. ibo doesn't have to sell out to asa but if they'd move toward that format i do believe they'd see a jump in attendance.


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## HokieArcher

Where haven't you complained?!?!? 

I know a large number of the shooters who show up at local shoots in Virginia/West Virginia also go to the National shoots. This is probably because the clubs have stakes that match ASA and IBO formats and yes many of them have 100+ shooters each month (where mountainous populations are a lot less than Illinois.) If you would listen to some good advice maybe you could have over 200+ shooters every month especially with the "average joe" base that you have (which is great!) You can always be better and everyone should listen to good advice, unless you are happy with mediocrity like a lot of losers in this country or are a "jackazz" as you call them. 




SonnyThomas said:


> You didn't see where I complained. I stated a fact, we have only one national shooter that's shoots nationals on a regular basis and he is a member. He is also are ASA Area Rep. A club shouldn't cater to one shooter and I wouldn't expect it to cater just to 2 or 3 for that matter. And as for ASA national shooters, our club as all Rineharts. And I doubt that national shooters would complain of our comp stake distances beings our max is supposed to be 45 yards, but 50 yards is not uncommon. Just like any club we have only certain areas where we can have a 45 yard stake, but I'd say may 1/3 to 1/2 can be. Who shoots from out comp stake; All Adults and Young Adults in Free Style (movable sights) and Bowhunter Free Style (fixed sights) which is our largest class.
> Beings our club draws a average of 140 shooters per monthly event and has been known to draw 200+  I don't think our club needs your advice.


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## SonnyThomas

HokieArcher said:


> Where haven't you complained?!?!?
> I know a large number of the shooters who show up at local shoots in Virginia/West Virginia also go to the National shoots. This is probably because the clubs have stakes that match ASA and IBO formats and yes many of them have 100+ shooters each month (where mountainous populations are a lot less than Illinois.) If you would listen to some good advice maybe you could have over 200+ shooters every month especially with the "average joe" base that you have (which is great!) You can always be better and everyone should listen to good advice, unless you are happy with mediocrity like a lot of losers in this country or are a "jackazz" as you call them.


Must have hit a nerve with the truth.... I presented facts, not guesses or hopeful wishes.

Again,our state wide the average attendance at ASA Qualifiers is something of about 30 to 35. If on the club level and 22 ASA clubs what's there to really to consider? 2 or 3 shooters?
I know of only 2 shooters who shoot on the ASA national level on a regular basis. The IBO? I've never even seen a schedule or flier for a Illinois State Championship.

Our club has tried many different things over the years. Each is evaluated and either kept or dismissed, just like the longer yardage stake we had. Again, and it seems you missed it, we do shoot 45yards and longer from our normal compeition stake.
Our club has a meeting every Saturday of our 3Ds, at 12:00 sharp. Members are welcome and I doubt that the Officers would frown on a outsider presenting something to consider. We have a meeting to set the schedule of the coming year and members are welcome. If no one speaks up normal procedures continue.

And our last shoot of the year we did go over 200 shooters.....


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## BMXRider2011

I don't know why everyone is whining and complaining. As I remember shooting 3d was about getting out there and having fun and flinging some arrows. If my memory serves me correctly and arrow will stick in both. And for those guys that say I am going to switch to the ASA, hope your bow isn't fast. I go and shoot to spend some time with my kids and the few friends I shoot with. I don't care what the target is.


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## rock77

here is the list of proposed targets
Elk
Bedded Elk
Caribou
Bedded Doe
Big 10 Buck
Alert Deer
Mountain GR
Lg Black Bear
Antelope
Cinnamon Bear
Alligator
Black Panther
Leopard w/riser
Cougar
Dahl Sheep
Bedded Dahl Sheep
Stone Sheep
Mule Deer
Fallow Deer
Snarling Wolf
Strutting Turkey
Wolverine
Feeding Doe
Razorback 
Coyote


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## ohiobullseye

My wife, daughter, and I shoot all kinds and brands of 3d targets. We shot the whole northern triple crown and IBO indoor worlds and the worlds for quite a few years. We have also shot the R100 and alot of other not so popular shoots local to us. My family will shoot any 3d target brand out there, we are very competitive and just love shooting 3d.


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## BMXRider2011

That is what it is supposed to be about.


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