# Grass is always Greener



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Just sell it or trade it for a UE.....I forgot your draw was that short. I don't know why you got a bow that long if you had been shooting so well with the 737 and the Prestige before that.

The UE holds fine....as does the PE. Which *I* hold better then the UE. There is a reason that the UE has won so many field and FITA shoots all these years.....it ain't because it doesn't hold well. But it's not because it holds better then something else.

If you shoot the 737 well....shoot it. Time to stop looking for that magic "holding stick"....for me if a bow isn't holding well.....it's my draw length and stab combo....not the bow.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Ya gotta go with what works there Jay. If the 737 is your bow of choice..... I've got one for hunting and I like it too.

I'm not a fan of the spiral cams either. Just too aggressive on the draw for me. When shooting 112 arrows...in July and August...I want something that won't wear me out. :embara: The Cam & 1/2 fits my needs just fine.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

I was feeling the same way . I'm sure you played with the bow a lot been reading your threads . I finally found a sweet spot where I can hold the bow & it feels good . I actually went the opposite way then everyone said to get mine good for me I took almost 1/4 off the top limb not the bottom . huge difference for me. also had to take off 4 pounds too .


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

Jbird said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't like these spiral cams on my Vantage Elite. I am hesitant to put my Cam.5+ cams on it because it will raise the brace height to 8" on top of the slower cam and I am afraid it will be a dog for field archery. My 737 fits me better, draws smoother, and with the 28 strand cables I have as hard a wall as I desire. The shorter axle to axle bow just shoots better for me with my 26" draw. Sectionals are this weekend and I am sticking with my 737 for them and the Nationals. I am begining to think I would have been happier with a new Ultra Elite with XT 2000 lmbs and Cam.5+ cams. Yes, the VE does hold like a rock and I have never owned or shot a UE. Anyone own or owned both that could speak to this delima?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jbird


I gotta tell ya man...I still shoot a 2002 Martin Phantome Elite with Fury cams which is only 38" ATA with 7" BH, and I simply haven't found a bow that I shoot as well or that fits me as well. As I only have a 26.5" draw, the longer ATA bows don't fit me, and the Fury cams are simply awesome. If I were ever to break down and buy a Hoyt, it would no doubt be the 737, as it has just about perfect specs for us short-draw shooters. Honestly...I would just sell the VE and shoot the 737 exclusively. Every once in a while, we find that magic bow that we just shoot the best, and if it happens to be the 737 (or Phantom in my case), so be it. Who says you need to have an UE or VE to shoot well??


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't like these spiral cams on my Vantage Elite. I am hesitant to put my Cam.5+ cams on it because it will raise the brace height to 8" on top of the slower cam and I am afraid it will be a dog for field archery. My 737 fits me better, draws smoother, and with the 28 strand cables I have as hard a wall as I desire. The shorter axle to axle bow just shoots better for me with my 26" draw. Sectionals are this weekend and I am sticking with my 737 for them and the Nationals. I am begining to think I would have been happier with a new Ultra Elite with XT 2000 lmbs and Cam.5+ cams. Yes, the VE does hold like a rock and I have never owned or shot a UE. Anyone own or owned both that could speak to this delima?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jbird


JBird,
What do you mean a "dog" for field archery? You know that I've never been a speed freak...and I've always figured that if I could shoot 557 field and hunter scores with aluminum arrows, low poundage, short drawlength (27 1/2" AMO), and 222 fps, then why worry about speed?

My Merlin XV is shooting 256 fps at 50 pounds and frankly, I'm going to add some more weight to the points of the GoldTip ULPro500's I'm shooting to SLOW IT DOWN. zMy XV has Alpha cams on it and a BH of nearly 8". I'm finding the arrows are "too flighty" to my liking. I won't slow it to 222 because that would probably mean a 400 grain or heavier arrow, haha...but....I also won't shoot what I feel is "too fast and light" of an arrow weight for the shear sake of "not being a dog."
You know I don't care for cut charts and palm pilots, etc and I know that you do, but SPEED isn't, IMHO the answer to "carrying a few points"; practice and consistency are.
Since you are using the "instruments" to find out if the course is properly marked and to get the angles right, you are supposedly going to KNOW the distance and angle DEAD ON, correct? Then why worry about the SPEED or the bow being a "dog"? All you gotta do is be ProActive and Practice those odd ball stances and angles you know WILL come up and you'll be just fine out there, ha.

IMHO, if persons at low poundage can shoot into the 550's with 230 fps or less....then why generate hyper speed....you get FAST MISSES that way.

Just my thoughts with regard to the Cam and a half + cams and higher brace height you are concerned with.

My Pro38 with cam and a half plus cams and GoldTip CAA 500's at 48# peak was generating 242fps....and I also thought that I'd slow it down for field. It certainly wasn't a "dog" at that speed, hahahaha.

field14


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*F14*

You assume that I am using all kinds of instruments and cut charts. Well, you know what they say about assuming. The truth is that after shooting the same four courses for five years I know what the cuts are and being familar with those courses I recognize those targets/angles, etc. when I get to other ranges. I have developed a feel for what it takes to adjust to the targets. We have some pretty good angles and side hills and it is surprising
how little you have to cut (if any). The tools are nice on strange ranges 
should you encounter some really radical targets.

I know you beat the world flat shooting 98 fps back in the day but having had the opportunity to shoot with three of the top field shooters in the world I know they don't share your feelings about speed. The truth is that I don't 
have the draw length to shoot 270 fps without shooting too light an arrow
and/or too much poundage. That being said, that doesn't mean I want to
shoot 230 fps either. Help yourself to happiness on the slows but don't look
behind you because there aren't many active field shooters following. LOL.

Jbird


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*CJuice*

Well said. I also shot my Phantom well. Nothing feels quite like the 737 to
me so why fight it. LOL
Jbird


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

I've been spoiled by the protec for the last several years.
I actually sold one of my protecs at the end of winter, and bought a 737 figuring the specs were about the same. While the 737 did shoot better than any of the other "new" bows I have tried since 05 it still didn't hold a candle to the protec.
I sold it in less than a month, and bought a new/used protec. I took some flack for ditching the 737 so quick people saying "you need to give it time" "get used to it" or my fav "you need to climb outside of your little box" 
But my question is why should I. I know darn well what works for me, and what I shoot the best. So why should I sacrifice any points just so I can be part of the in crowd, and have the "latest greatest" new bows???

We share simular draw length I'm 26 5/8 Those long ATA bows just don't do us any justice. That is the main reason I haven't bought a vantage pro. I tried the longer ATA thing back in March the protec I bought had xt3000's I wanted to try the longer bow, and figured it was a protec so I would shoot it good. Well I didn't I shot a 287 indoors with it so I took it home, and gave it a make over. Put xt2000's and spirals on it (my preffered set up) the next time I shot it I shot a 299.
Moral of the story you have to shoot what you know works for you.

That being said don't write off those spirals just yet. They really are a great cam if you get to know them. First thing you have to do is accept that you'll be shooting lower weight than before (but that doesn't matter you'll still have your speed if you want it) If your used to shooting 60 pounds then shoot the spirals at 50. If you ever get a chance to jump on a protec with spirals and 2000 limbs give it a try. I can't think of a better all around bow. 37.5 ATA 7.625 brace, and I can get darn near 290 at 55 pounds if I want to (back in the 3d days)


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

I have the Hoyt Ultra Elite with xt 2000 limbs and cam&half plus , I only have a 27 inch draw and I can hold and aim this bow very well.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Lord knows I know very little being a finger shooter for all these years, and am totally out of the loop, but it seems to me that it doesn't matter what you shoot, or how fast it shoots as long as you have confidence that it will get it done for you. That's a great part of the battle between the ears. That being said, let me also say that the day speed becomes more of a factor than having some knowledge between your ears, and shooting a well executed shot with a real stable/forgiving arrow, I'll sell all of my stuff and go watch monster trucks and tractor pulling.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Great Comments*

I have learned that having a bow with a string angle that fits the shooter helps a lot with holding and feel. For me, being able to aim long enough to smoothly execute the shot makes all the difference. Speed in itself is certainly not the be all and end all in field shooting and certainly not at the expense of shot execution and grouping. That being said, there is no question that shooting a bow at 260-270 rather than 230 makes the cuts easier and small mistakes less critical. That's not just my opinion, that's the opinion of Dave Cousins, Doug Williams, and Jimmie Butts and I put a lot of stock in the advice they have given me. All of my best scores have been shot with bows in the 36" a to a range. I don't know why but for me the shorter bows drastically reduce my high and low misses on the up hill and down hill shots. For people that shoot indoors and on socker fields I don't think axle to axle is as critical but for field shooters the better fit, the better the scores. Just my experience and your mileage may vary.

Jbird


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Jbird said:


> I have learned that having a bow with a string angle that fits the shooter helps a lot with holding and feel. For me, being able to aim long enough to smoothly execute the shot makes all the difference. Speed in itself is certainly not the be all and end all in field shooting and certainly not at the expense of shot execution and grouping. That being said, there is no question that shooting a bow at 260-270 rather than 230 makes the cuts easier and small mistakes less critical. That's not just my opinion, that's the opinion of Dave Cousins, Doug Williams, and Jimmie Butts and I put a lot of stock in the advice they have given me. All of my best scores have been shot with bows in the 36" a to a range. I don't know why but for me the shorter bows drastically reduce my high and low misses on the up hill and down hill shots. For people that shoot indoors and on socker fields I don't think axle to axle is as critical but for field shooters the better fit, the better the scores. Just my experience and your mileage may vary.
> 
> Jbird


I always find these discussions about draw length vs. axle-to-axle length interesting. Do you believe it is a comfort issue...or something else?

I remember when I started shooting Field archery in 1988 48" axle-to-axle bows were the norm. A 45" bow was considered short!  Now, regardless of draw length...that was what you used. Lots of good scores were shot with those bows too. So why is a short draw, long axle bow unacceptable these days?


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Jerry*

No doubt that some great scores were shot with those long bows back in those days. My guess is that is because the archers were that good and they practiced more than we have time to practice these days. Life was slower back then and time was not so much at a premium. I think they shot those scores in spite of the equipment rather than because of it. A lot of those old guys are still around and some of them still cling to the old ideas and there is nothing wrong with that. Those of us with average skills are better served by putting the odds in our favor with the right equipment and as much focused practice as we can steal time for.

Jbird

PS. I just watched that European Pro shoot on Archery TV and I think it is very interesting that Chris White, who is over
6 ft tall is still shooting a Mathews Switch Back. He loves that little short bow and is one of the best outdoor shooters
in the game. Go figure.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

Jbird said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't like these spiral cams on my Vantage Elite. I am hesitant to put my Cam.5+ cams on it because it will raise the brace height to 8" on top of the slower cam and I am afraid it will be a dog for field archery. My 737 fits me better, draws smoother, and with the 28 strand cables I have as hard a wall as I desire. The shorter axle to axle bow just shoots better for me with my 26" draw. Sectionals are this weekend and I am sticking with my 737 for them and the Nationals. I am begining to think I would have been happier with a new Ultra Elite with XT 2000 lmbs and Cam.5+ cams. Yes, the VE does hold like a rock and I have never owned or shot a UE. Anyone own or owned both that could speak to this delima?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jbird


Jay,
If you talk to the Hoyt guys,like Kevin Wilkey, they'll tell you the 737 is the bow that replaced the UltraTec. It has almost the exact same specs but a little longer riser and shorter limbs. So you've got a bow that's won just about everything in it's day. Shoot it and stop searching for stability in a longer bow. That doesn't apply anymore as far as I'm concerned. I tried a Pro Elite with 3000 limbs and switched my Ultra to 3000 limbs and neither one held worth a crap. More like a noodle. Went back to the 2000 limbs on my Ultra and it holds like a rock and handles my 30" draw very comfortably for me. I use more of a side of the face anchor and don't worry about touching my nose at all. As a matter of fact I don't touch much of anything to my face. It's just centering my scope in the peep and that's it. If I try a tight anchor, it screws my grip to elbow line up and I can't get off a shot with a straight back follow through.
Have you ever seen Frank Pearson demonstrate how unimportant an anchor is? He holds the string further and further out from his face and leans his head out to look through the peep. Everything still hits the spot. He even has someone else do the sighting for him and it's still close. 
With your short draw, I would try to anchor off to the side. You could probably pick up an inch of usable draw length on the bow. Try it.
Joe B.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

I have a VE w/spirals at 29". Draw peg is hole 1, and I'm shooting X10 pro tour 470's(338gr). weight is set at 57#'s, and I chronoed it at 282. This past weekend, I played around with my UE, XT3500, C2's @ 28.5"(no draw stop), set at 58#'s. After finally get it tuned, I chronoed it...276. Makes me wonder know if I want to dig a little deeper with this bow, and play with it outdoors. I was thinking about some 420's for some FITA rounds with it. I was really surprised with how close they are speed wise, but how different they are length wise, espically in the limb difference. If you thinking of getting rid of that VE, PM me with some specs, as I may be intersted in it. I am also thinking of getting rid of the UE as well.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Vantage Elite*

The bow is as new, I've only had it a few weeks. It is Jade green, 26" SpiralX, and 50# max draw (actually maxes right at 54#). I haven't made
my mind up to sell it yet because I am waiting for Unk to get his 1000 limbs
and Cam.5+ cams on his and tell me what he thinks of it. I would buy a
used 2008+ Ultra Elite or Pro Tec with XT 2000 limbs if the price was right but looking for one with 50# limbs and 26" draw is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Jbird


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Zenarch*

I have already decided to stick with the 737 for the rest of the year. It is
the best shooting bow I have ever shot. I have also decided that anything 
over 38" a to a is counter productive for me. I would like to shoot a UE
with XT 2000 limbs and Cam.5+ just to see what has made this bow a legend
in it's own time. May get an opportunity to at Sectionals this weekend in
Lunenburg.
Jbird


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

Jbird said:


> I have already decided to stick with the 737 for the rest of the year. It is
> the best shooting bow I have ever shot. I have also decided that anything
> over 38" a to a is counter productive for me. I would like to shoot a UE
> with XT 2000 limbs and Cam.5+ just to see what has made this bow a legend
> ...


If you get to try one it probably will feel a lot like your 737.
Joe B.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> No doubt that some great scores were shot with those long bows back in those days. My guess is that is because the archers were that good and they practiced more than we have time to practice these days. Life was slower back then and time was not so much at a premium. I think they shot those scores in spite of the equipment rather than because of it. A lot of those old guys are still around and some of them still cling to the old ideas and there is nothing wrong with that. Those of us with average skills are better served by putting the odds in our favor with the right equipment and as much focused practice as we can steal time for.
> 
> Jbird
> 
> ...


I agree....and I think you hit the nail on the head.

I am in search of a set of 2000 limbs myself....I love the way my PE holds and shoots with 3000s. BUT its not as good for me as one with 2000s....as little as it is those 2.5" make a difference for me and I can tell as I am having a problem fighting the angle on the mid distances. Its just a touch off for my taste. I have shot bows in the 40" range well....but never as well as I did bows in the 36-38" :noidea: 

I am SURE if I shot as much as I used to that I could work through it or make it work....but why should I? Its much easier and better to get the fit and feel I am looking for....even back when spirals made their first go round I shot my Pro Tecs better with 2000s then 3000s. 

So as soon as possible I will be switching back to 2000s . So if anyone wants to swap some 3000s for 2000s....holla 


and on another note...unless you were watching Chris shoot in previous years events....he is shooting a Monster now...watch the first or second segments from last week and there is an interview with him :wink:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I agree....and I think you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> I am in search of a set of 2000 limbs myself....I love the way my PE holds and shoots with 3000s. BUT its not as good for me as one with 2000s....as little as it is those 2.5" make a difference for me and I can tell as I am having a problem fighting the angle on the mid distances. Its just a touch off for my taste. I have shot bows in the 40" range well....but never as well as I did bows in the 36-38" :noidea:
> 
> ...


Hey Hornet, you talking about string angle?


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

Jbird, once you find "your" bow...stick w/ it. Everyone is a different shape, size and color. I feel ATA fit is as important to a shooter as draw length fit. My magic number is 37.5" +/- for an ATA. I've had UltraTecs w/ XT3000 limbs that shot lights out, but just didn't feel that great to me. I've found "my" bow is a ProElite w/ XT2000 limbs and Spiral cams. They are like putting on old broken in tennis shoes. Ooooohhhh.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Hey Hornet, you talking about string angle?


Yep....that and my peep height aren't mixing. I am destroying the long (45+) and dropping everything 20-40. I just can't find a comfy spot no matter where I put the peep or my dl.

Its annoying to shoot 5 after 5 on the 60...then shoot 4 out at 25 or 30. :doh:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

FoggDogg said:


> Jbird, once you find "your" bow...stick w/ it. Everyone is a different shape, size and color. I feel ATA fit is as important to a shooter as draw length fit. My magic number is 37.5" +/- for an ATA. I've had UltraTecs w/ XT3000 limbs that shot lights out, but just didn't feel that great to me. I've found "my" bow is a ProElite w/ XT2000 limbs and Spiral cams. They are like putting on old broken in tennis shoes. Ooooohhhh.


That's my magic setup also....heck I am even loving the C2  I just wish I had listened to myself when I told myself to go back to 2000s back in Feb :doh: I just wanted to give them an honest try...not a shoot it once and switch.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Yep....that and my peep height aren't mixing. I am destroying the long (45+) and dropping everything 20-40. I just can't find a comfy spot no matter where I put the peep or my dl.
> 
> Its annoying to shoot 5 after 5 on the 60...then shoot 4 out at 25 or 30. :doh:


Not to hijack Jbird's thread :embara:, but why would a steeper string angle from a shorter bow be a benefit? 

One thing I do know...I shot my best scores with a 43" length bow. These shorter bows have been kicking my @!&% for a long time!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Not to hijack Jbird's thread :embara:, but why would a steeper string angle from a shorter bow be a benefit?
> 
> One thing I do know...I shot my best scores with a 43" length bow. These shorter bows have been kicking my @!&% for a long time!


Because I shoot it better....


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Jerry*

The magic part about the string angle is comfort. If you can get the nock to line up directly under your pupil, the anchor to fall on the line of your jaw bone(anchor between first and second knuckle), your elbow just *very slightly *less than in line with the arrow, and a light touch on your nose without jamming it into the string, then it should help your consistancy. For
me that takes a bow an axle to axle of 35" to 37" at 26" draw. This varies for
every shooter. When you find it you will know.

Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Not to hijack Jbird's thread :embara:, but why would a steeper string angle from a shorter bow be a benefit?
> 
> One thing I do know...I shot my best scores with a 43" length bow. These shorter bows have been kicking my @!&% for a long time!


Same here, excepting mine were with 48" ATA! I shot ALL of my lifetime personal bests with a 48" ATA bow with tiny force-draw eccentrics that everyone tried to tell me "wouldn't shoot for me." How wrong those people were, haha. I do, however think it is a lot about what you "grew up with". The shooters that weren't in the game when the 56" ATA low letoff bows were the going thing never experienced that stability and forgiveness. Then, they "shortened" 'em up to 48", then 45" and got the idea that MORE SHORT was "better, haha.

I don't "like" the peep being so far from my eye as with the 37" and shorter bows, but that is what we have, so I'm learning to accommodate it. I also don't like "slam cams" with harsh & rapid letoff and super hard walls either....However, I'm really liking my 35" ATA Merlin XV with Alpha cams on it...other than me still adjusting to that peep to eye distance being so far out there.....with the nock under my eye like it is supposed to be, the string angle is just a tad too abrupt.

Thus, I am pretty anxious to get my new Merlin Excalibur at 40" ATA and "adjustable" force draw curve. Most likely I won't shoot it in the "aggressive mode", but you never know, haha. But that may well change that string angle just enough for me not to have to spend so much time trying to find center.

Again, just what you grew up with, and how people HATE CHANGE. I'd sure like to have a 48" or even 45" ATA bow with 8" or better brace height and have some of today's better string materials and better designed cams...It would be very interesting indeed!

field14[/QUOTE]


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I agree....and I think you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> I am in search of a set of 2000 limbs myself....I love the way my PE holds and shoots with 3000s. BUT its not as good for me as one with 2000s....as little as it is those 2.5" make a difference for me and I can tell as I am having a problem fighting the angle on the mid distances. Its just a touch off for my taste. I have shot bows in the 40" range well....but never as well as I did bows in the 36-38" :noidea:
> 
> ...


Yep I was watching this years shoot but I looked at his spec sheet on the
shoot site and it listed his old switch back. Shooting the Monster it is still
the same deal. Mathews site says a to a on that one is 33" or so. Still pretty
short for someone that is 6ft tall. I may be nuts but my impression is that 
the bows that are long a to a for a given shooter have a lot of stability as far as canting goes but I have problems with high and low shots on uphill and down hill targets. May be just me. Would't be the first time I have tied two
ends together that don't line up.  LOL
Jbird


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Yep I was watching this years shoot but I looked at his spec sheet on the
> shoot site and it listed his old switch back. Shooting the Monster it is still
> the same deal. Mathews site says a to a on that one is 33" or so. Still pretty
> short for someone that is 6ft tall. I may be nuts but my impression is that
> ...


True but he said that it holds better for him the the Apex line and the Switchback. The thing about that bow and some of the other short ones....the cams are so big that the feels about 4-5" longer. I remember the first time I shot a Hoyt Vulcan....I didn't know the bow was 33" until I got home and looked at the website. I thought the bow was 36-37" long.

The Monster probably feels about the same way.

I think Dudley is shooting an AM35 he is a pretty tall guy also....


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I have a 27.5 draw and 40-41 ata is working great for me . I had 37- 38 ata target bows and i did not like them for hunting they are great . 
Use what working for you and if it is not broken doint fix it .


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Jbird said:


> The magic part about the string angle is comfort. If you can get the nock to line up directly under your pupil, the anchor to fall on the line of your jaw bone(anchor between first and second knuckle), your elbow just *very slightly *less than in line with the arrow, and a light touch on your nose without jamming it into the string, then it should help your consistancy. For
> me that takes a bow an axle to axle of 35" to 37" at 26" draw. This varies for
> every shooter. When you find it you will know.
> 
> Jbird


All good points Jay. Just surprised the same comfort cannot be obtained with a shorter bow.



field14 said:


> Same here, excepting mine were with 48" ATA! I shot ALL of my lifetime personal bests with a 48" ATA bow with tiny force-draw eccentrics that everyone tried to tell me "wouldn't shoot for me." How wrong those people were, haha. I do, however think it is a lot about what you "grew up with". The shooters that weren't in the game when the 56" ATA low letoff bows were the going thing never experienced that stability and forgiveness. Then, they "shortened" 'em up to 48", then 45" and got the idea that MORE SHORT was "better, haha.
> 
> I don't "like" the peep being so far from my eye as with the 37" and shorter bows, but that is what we have, so I'm learning to accommodate it. I also don't like "slam cams" with harsh & rapid letoff and super hard walls either....However, I'm really liking my 35" ATA Merlin XV with Alpha cams on it...other than me still adjusting to that peep to eye distance being so far out there.....with the nock under my eye like it is supposed to be, the string angle is just a tad too abrupt.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

You bring up an interesting point...increased eye-to-peep distance with shorter bows. I would think that would be less forgiving and peep height far more critical. Who knows.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Jbird said:


> .. Anyone own or owned both that could speak to this delima?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jbird


I've got both (actually its a VP and not a VE). Shoot 'em both great. 

I really don't see a dilema...you've found the bow that fits you and your style. While I think its okay to look for improvements in equipment I don't think you should overlook the results just because its supposed to be better...many of us have been in that trap and eventually escaped.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bobmuley said:


> I really don't see a dilema...you've found the bow that fits you and your style. While I think its okay to look for improvements in equipment I don't think you should overlook the results just because its supposed to be better...many of us have been in that trap and eventually escaped.


Exactly....I did that crap with 3000s a few years back when the Pro was 41" with them at my dl....kicked myself right away. :doh:

I figured since at my specs the bow would be closer to 39.5" with 3000s I would be ok...well I am ok. But its not the fit I want or desire with 2000s...or what I had with the S4 mag.

I hope that Hoyt makes a VE that is shorter next year.... Otherwise I will still be shooting a PE


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Bob*

Exactly. I'm through fighting the facts. The 737 shoots great for me. I also like to have two bows and am toying with the idea of the UE/XT 2000 because the specs are almost identical with Cam.5+ to my 737. I'm either
going to get the UE or another 737. Why two bows? Because I like a back up and I hate having to change my Field bow over to indoors in the winter.

I am leaving for the NE Sectionals in 20 minutes and I'm going to spend the
next three days shooting my 737 instead of pondering the meaning of life, archery, and bow choices.

Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

[/QUOTE]

You bring up an interesting point...increased eye-to-peep distance with shorter bows. I would think that would be less forgiving and peep height far more critical. Who knows. [/QUOTE]

You bring up an interesting point...increased eye-to-peep distance with shorter bows. I would think that would be less forgiving and peep height far more critical. Who knows. [/QUOTE]

Why do you think so many PROS and top echelon shooters are anchoring farther back on the side of their faces..>AND pulling the string PAST the tip of their noses? Obviously...>Getting better peep alignment and that peep closer to the eye so it isn't so blamed critical!

I'm going to have to do something like that with the 35" bow....I have too many good shots that are going left/right or high/low, just out. The peep height is super critical, but even then getting and staying "centered up" is very, very problematical for someone not "brought up" with that sort of matrix. Live and learn....the bow holds like a rock, even with my tremor...but dealing with peep alignment is a hassle...NOT THE BOW'S fault, just an operator that ain't figured that "angle" out yet. (pun intended). 

For JBird...short bows are OK, but for ME....it is problematical. Different strokes for different folks. I'd bet that going more to the side of the nose instead of on the tip would help me a ton....so I"m gonna try it out...nothing to lose but a couple weeks of working with it to see if it REALLY works better or not. One or two sessions won't tell you a thing, you gotta work with it and let it get settled in.

Like they say..."ANYTHING new works..>ONCE" "The proof, however is "in the pudding."

field14


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Jbird said:


> Exactly. I'm through fighting the facts. ...Jbird


You can take it from me as I recover from the last three years trying to make something work...


At least now I've learned to set time limits as well.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Why do you think so many PROS and top echelon shooters are anchoring farther back on the side of their faces..>AND pulling the string PAST the tip of their noses? Obviously...>Getting better peep alignment and that peep closer to the eye so it isn't so blamed critical!

This is a very interesting point. In every shoot I've been in thus far (yeah, I know, all 6 of 'em--keep it to yourselves....):zip:, I have had a handful of shots that I know are good, but they're off either to the left or right of the dot (no excessive bow torquing, no alteration in anchor, no fletch contact, etc).:dontknow: 

For sometime I have suspected something to do with peep alignment, but still do not have the skills to always know what the next step should be. Now, I have something to experiment with. I like some of this proactive stuff!!! :bounce:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

field14 said:


> Why do you think so many PROS and top echelon shooters are anchoring farther back on the side of their faces..>AND pulling the string PAST the tip of their noses? Obviously...>Getting better peep alignment and that peep closer to the eye so it isn't so blamed critical!


I had not noticed that. Hmmmmm. I've experimented with an anchor that lays the string on the side of my nose. Notice I used the term....*experimented*. :embara: I have a tendency to put too much string pressure on the tip of my nose. Still looking for the right position.......and feel.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> I had not noticed that. Hmmmmm. I've experimented with an anchor that lays the string on the side of my nose. Notice I used the term....*experimented*. :embara: I have a tendency to put too much string pressure on the tip of my nose. Still looking for the right position.......and feel.


The keys are: 
REPEATABILITY to the gnat's tail, not just close...but PERFECT

CENTERING THE DOT AND SCOPE HOUSING in the peep and KEEPING IT CENTERED.

KEEPING YOUR HEAD STILL and no fishing around.

If you keep your peep centered and your head still..you don't need a face contact point...problem is....so very few can hold that still without something to brace with on the back end...especially someone like myself that has an intentional tremor on the bowarm side!

By keeping your head still, I not only mean when at anchor...I mean from the moment you start to draw the bow...you draw the bow to YOU...you don't go to IT...through the anchor, the aiming process, AND...until that arrow is in that target. I think that it is Dean Pridgen that says..."Follow thru, the last thing to happen, but the first thing to go"...think about it.....

ProActive archery is the base of my articles in Archery Focus. I try to write about the HOW, because almost everyone else writes about the "WHAT", but don't tell you HOW to get the what done. Gotta be prepared for WHEN it happens and not just the IF it happens....because sooner or later....you will run into those situations, it WILL happen. Especially things about peep sites, bowstrings, nocking points, d-loops, arrow rests, releases....you had better know for certain where you were...cuz you WILL eventually have something move or break and to get it back...you'd better know where you started.

I see so many "top echelon" shooters that are clueless where things are sitting when that bow is shooting its best for them. They get it all tuned and shoot the heck out of it...then something moves...and they haven't a clue how to put it back, cuz they don't KNOW where it "was" to start with. Unbelievable, but so true. They ain't got time for that "stuff" they want to shoot.

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

field14 said:


> KEEPING YOUR HEAD STILL and no fishing around.
> 
> If you keep your peep centered and your head still..you don't need a face contact point...problem is....so very few can hold that still without something to brace with on the back end..


The ONLY person I have ever seen shoot like that since I started REALLY WATCHING top shooters actually shoot.....and shoot good is Jesse.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> The ONLY person I have ever seen shoot like that since I started REALLY WATCHING top shooters actually shoot.....and shoot good is Jesse.


You watch their head and eyes once they get anchored and you will see ZERO movement.

SOME might move the head slightly, and one in particular does a LOT of 'bobbing around' (Dave Cousins)....but once they hit anchor and lock in...there is ZERO movement of that head nor their eyes, other than MAYBE blinking a couple of times while aiming. If they blink, most even have how many blinks down to a science.

Watch Reo Wilde's head...there is no movement even when the shot explodes! ROCK SOLID.

The KEY...is getting that peep centered and learning to KEEP IT CENTERED..and if it wavers...down it comes and start over.

Many people think that the arrow has to be moving back during the shot process...and for a finger shooter with a clicker, this is mostly true...but for a COMPOUND/RELEASE shooter, it is tension MAINTENANCE...and NO MOVEMENT...cuz moving the arrow back changes DL...and peep angle ever so slightly...and troubles begin, and the chances of winning end.

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Oh I know they don't move....I was referring to the face contact :wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Oh I know they don't move....I was referring to the face contact :wink:


Gotcha...theoretically, however you don't NEED face contact to be accurate...but only if you are solid enough to repeat the same identical "location" by some other means AND keep the peep/eye/scope/X-ring CENTERED and maintained all the way through the shot.

SOME shooters "down Under" shoot with the _string_ not touching anywhere on the face or jaw, but do have a release hand "anchor". I don't agree with their premise, but some are doing pretty darned well that way.

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

field14 said:


> Gotcha...theoretically, however you don't NEED face contact to be accurate...but only if you are solid enough to repeat the same identical "location" by some other means AND keep the peep/eye/scope/X-ring CENTERED and maintained all the way through the shot.
> 
> SOME shooters "down Under" shoot with the _string_ not touching anywhere on the face or jaw, but do have a release hand "anchor". I don't agree with their premise, but some are doing pretty darned well that way.
> 
> field14


I don't think they do that anymore....I am almost POSITIVE that "he" is back to the "normal" way since he switched back to a Hoyt. :wink:


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