# Pencil can beat you!



## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

*sneaky*

Our club had some grumbling about this at our big shoot of the year so they got kind of sneaky. It's a two day shoot and they have a top flight in each class where the top scorers from the first day have to shoot together if they want to go for the trophy and they sprung a new twist this year, on the second day everyone starts from 0 in the top flights, It makes you wonder when the person leading their class by 30 points after the first day comes in tenth ( last in top flight ) on the second day. There were a few complaints but just about everybody liked the new rule.


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

knarrly said:


> Our club had some grumbling about this at our big shoot of the year so they got kind of sneaky. It's a two day shoot and they have a top flight in each class where the top scorers from the first day have to shoot together if they want to go for the trophy and they sprung a new twist this year, on the second day everyone starts from 0 in the top flights, It makes you wonder when the person leading their class by 30 points after the first day comes in tenth ( last in top flight ) on the second day. There were a few complaints but just about everybody liked the new rule.


sounds good to me. I write my score down the way it is. I want to win fair and square. I think they should have some kind of range official with you cause its to easy to cheat. I can't beleave that some big shoots like the world and IBO qualifing let you go and keep your own score!


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## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Personally I've never experienced it. I'm very new to the sport, but everywhere I shoot the shooters are true gentleman for the most part, and the ones who win deserve to...


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## ultratec1 (Jan 3, 2005)

On a lot of the new targets you can not tell if they have been shot or not. They seal up real nice.


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## knobby (Mar 4, 2003)

we shot at the iowa games this weekend and they had several new delta targets, we shot sunday and and several others shot the day before, and when we would pull our arrows it looked as if no one had ever shot the target before, i was told delta has a new foam and it seals very tight after an arrow is pulled, i dont know if that is the case in your shoot but this is what we experienced


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

*I've been suspicious a couple times this year*

When you have a couple 16-year olds shooting together that no one has ever seen at a shoot before both come in with 400+ scores and the regular top shooters are all in the 370's and 380's?????

I saw the same thing with young (early 20's) couple come in that shot by themselves and beat the 2nd place people in their classes by 40 points or more.

It is nice to have groups "busted", but I enjoy shooting with just my wife sometimes so can understand both sides. 

I can't imagine it being a good feeling to look at a trophy on the wall that I did't really win but I am sure there are some people that will cheat anyway. Of the 5 states we have traveled nearly all the people seem really honest and down-to-earth. I have only ever reported one person for cheating and that was an adult that was using a range finder. I had given him the benefit of doubt that he was in a fun class or not turning in a score card. I would have never said a word had he not turned in his card while I was standing there.


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## bigmo101 (Oct 19, 2004)

I've known of a few people that had a sharp pencil, well actually one or two. Everyone knew it but no way to prove it. Oh well, what ever floats their boats. If there is no money involved, who cares. As far as I'm concerned they can keep the trophies and medals.


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

What do you think we should do about it Fg? As you saw, its pretty relaxed. I dont want a rule to bust groups at the local level, cause thats half the fun to me. I guess you also notice that 3 targets last week didnt have 12 rings......figure that one out. I know one of the guys that shoots in the 300's, Ive never shot a round with him, but I know he has been shooting for many years. Ive questioned it myself in my own mind, but the guys that know him better never seem to think twice about it. I dont think cheating is rampant or anything especially among the core group, but there is the issue of giving your buddies the benefit of the doubt on those questionable calls. Its hard not to, Im guilty of that myself from time to time.

Another thing not enforced or even set out is a clear set of equipment rules. We are shooting IBO centers, but nobody has ever talked rules. If it keeps growing, we are going to have to get our stuff together. No doubt about it. I guess I should be one to lead by example and either crank my poundage down or increase my arrow weight.  I just really enjoy making fun of my pharmacist buddies Outback shooting 270ish when I smoke one by him traveling about 340. Everyone wants to keep everything friendly and keep it more as a downhome fun shoot atmosphere, but at the same time, we want to keep growing it. Give me your suggestions and Ill be sure to pass them on. The guy that runs it, you met him, had never been to a shoot outside russell co until weekend before last when I took him to the shoot over in edmonton. Let me know what ya think.


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## Shawn (May 5, 2003)

One of our local clubs found it to be a problem. What they did was to take the top 5 adult shooters in each class start back at 0 and do a five target shoot-off with all other shooters having a chance to watch. That slowed down then sharp pencils!


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## XADDICT (Apr 12, 2005)

I was at a local shoot about a month ago and some guy shot 52 up. The best part about it was he shot in the rain, with his wife, who did not shoot. The following weekend, at the MN state ASA championship he shot 36 down in a busted group.


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

KYShooter said:


> What do you think we should do about it Fg? As you saw, its pretty relaxed. I dont want a rule to bust groups at the local level, cause thats half the fun to me. I guess you also notice that 3 targets last week didnt have 12 rings......figure that one out. I know one of the guys that shoots in the 300's, Ive never shot a round with him, but I know he has been shooting for many years. Ive questioned it myself in my own mind, but the guys that know him better never seem to think twice about it. I dont think cheating is rampant or anything especially among the core group, but there is the issue of giving your buddies the benefit of the doubt on those questionable calls. Its hard not to, Im guilty of that myself from time to time.
> 
> Another thing not enforced or even set out is a clear set of equipment rules. We are shooting IBO centers, but nobody has ever talked rules. If it keeps growing, we are going to have to get our stuff together. No doubt about it. I guess I should be one to lead by example and either crank my poundage down or increase my arrow weight.  I just really enjoy making fun of my pharmacist buddies Outback shooting 270ish when I smoke one by him traveling about 340. Everyone wants to keep everything friendly and keep it more as a downhome fun shoot atmosphere, but at the same time, we want to keep growing it. Give me your suggestions and Ill be sure to pass them on. The guy that runs it, you met him, had never been to a shoot outside russell co until weekend before last when I took him to the shoot over in edmonton. Let me know what ya think.


I wasn't in particularly talking about your guys shoot if thats what you were thinking. I shot another tourny the next day. Also shot 2 this weekend also! But i think stuff like that goes on, not really a good solution i guess just have a fun time cause thats what i'm in it for, i guess you just don't worry about the scores!


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

About the only thing I can think of is going with the double score cards, 2 scorekeepers in each group. That way it has to be a team effort to pencil-whip somebody. Ive had the same thoughts as you, no doubt about it. Probably before we start up again next year Im going to talk to Larry about going to straight IBO rules. I dont care much for his AA class, A class, B, C, etc. idea.

edit...
I assumed you were talking about us because I was eyeballing a couple guys scores myself.


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## JUMPMAN (Jun 5, 2005)

Seen it happen many times,apparently they need the trophy and notariety more than me we all know who these idiots are and who the top shooters are. So on a two day shoot when they are flighted with the top shooters they totally fall apart. Thats when I ask them, "you have got to be kidding me you actually shot that score yesterday?" They will live and learn :thumbs_do


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## Harley Rider (Nov 11, 2004)

I had the opposite experience. I shot a 3D with my buddy. He lost 4 arrows shooting 30 targets. COMPLETELY missed 7 animals all together. At the end I asked him how I did and magically his goose eggs were on my side and he had the higher score???? He said that’s what I get for making him keep score.  Live and learn. .


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

We had one last year, but we took care of it. At the first shoot of the year last year, the wind was howling, it was sleeting, and the course was very tough. Al of the top shooters, some of the better ASA Open A and Semi-pro shooters at that, struggled to break even. All of a sudden, here comes a 16 up score!!!! The next week we stuck a club member in his group and he shot a 156 in perfect weather on a fairly easy course. Since then, his group always gets a club member in the group with them

Around here, there must be at least 3 legal scoreres in the group for the score to count, a dad and his kids will not get it done, nor will a group of 2. We also have 2 scorecards per group to try to keep everything on the up and up.

Still, it happens.


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## ewsIII (Nov 3, 2004)

It happens everywhere. My goal is to beat those who cheat, by shooting a higher score than they know how to count to.


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## prohoyt (Feb 8, 2005)

*usba*

i also have been a victim of being pencil whipped. This weekend I shot the second USBA shoot and they have made it virtually impossible to be pencil whipped. The way they do this is by having a judge at every two targets that does the scoring and calling of arrows. This process also made the shoot quicker. My group finished the 30 target course in about an hour and forty five minutes. You all should check them out at www.usbowhunterassociation.com


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## Northforker (Oct 11, 2004)

We have a shooter in our group that will call his own arrows and pull them before anybody else can look closely at it. Ever since we started writing down zeros if he pulls it before somebody else calls the score he quit that scam. Also we designate one guy to add up ALL of the scores, usually this guy is definitely out of the running scorewise. Sooner or later, cheaters don't have any buddies to shoot with.


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## Nugebowmofo (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm new and I STINK.I can't judge distance for anything but I won't cheat!I have more zeros on my card than a billion dollar bill but I shoot what I shoot!I hate cheaters and will call them out every time!I know I will get better cheaters never will.A bad day shooting is better than a good day working!Btw so far my 7 yr old son and wife are the only witnesses so I could cheat anytime.I choose to do the right thing!Itsa shame but I guess there are cheaters in every sport


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## ghostrider46 (May 21, 2002)

where are you ky boys shooting? i shoot a lot of the ckaa shoots, and we use two scorekeepers in each group, just in case someone makes a mistake ya know  i shoot whiteoak in junction city, mercer county, cedar hills, in harrodsburg, red river in stanton, and have shot cedar creek one time early this year. i would suggest that if you suspect a group of gouging the scorecard, get into the group with them. that stopped a lot of the pencil wins around our area.


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

Whiteoak in Junction city is a good shoot. I shoot in Russell County and Edmonton, and anywhere else that I can get to and will have me. When is Whiteoak shooting again? I really liked that one.


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## Tim Roberts (Jul 13, 2002)

It's unfortunate that this sort of thing happens in all forms of the sport. :thumbs_do An old saying I've heard is: "A good scorer will always beat a good archer." 

As ews5743 said:


> My goal is to beat those who cheat, by shooting a higher score than they know how to count to.


 I think that's something we should all aim to do. Then those cheaters may think twice before doing it again.


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

KYShooter said:


> About the only thing I can think of is going with the double score cards, 2 scorekeepers in each group. That way it has to be a team effort to pencil-whip somebody. Ive had the same thoughts as you, no doubt about it. Probably before we start up again next year Im going to talk to Larry about going to straight IBO rules. I dont care much for his AA class, A class, B, C, etc. idea.
> 
> edit...
> I assumed you were talking about us because I was eyeballing a couple guys scores myself.


i will admit it was a bit confusing at first with all those classes, i guess you would have a better chance at getting a trophie. You could sanbag a little also then shoot good next week, i think thats how it works!


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## ghostrider46 (May 21, 2002)

white oak shoots again on the 31st. they do have a nice shoot, and generally no surprises. several years ago the ckaa was formed. we decided as a group to follow ibo rules, as a guideline. we have a couple that are not ibo rules, the open b class for one. if you shoot any shoot in the ckaa, the rules are the same. we really cater to the needs of the shooter when possible, and within reason. 

if you suspect someone at whiteoak of bending the rules, pm me and i will make sure they shoot in a busted group if they show up.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I only shoot fita and field these days but I used to hear about this stuff alot in 3D. I also personally witnessed it in Sporting Clays which is very similar to 3D in terms of format-saw a guy miss 4 targets on a station and come in with a 95 beating the rest of us master class shooters by 20 targets (I saw his card, he had a 8/10 on that station).

solution at big shoots? you have a judge at each station who you hand your score card to and the judge (in the clays shoots college kids who are hired to do it) marks your hits or misses with a coloured pen.

If he makes a mistake-he signs the card where he changes it

I realize in small shoots this is too expensive and requires too much manpower

another guy told me about a pencil pusher they suspected. This was at a World qualifier-it ran two days and you could shoot anytime you wanted. The pusher would come late and usually shoot by himself which they used to allow. They set up several targets that could be seen from a position on the course and the club president and another guy set up a spotting scope.

They wrote down the arrow score. When the guy's scorecard recorded inflated values he got the boot


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## ultramax (Feb 6, 2005)

One idea I had was to set a large trophey behind the check in with a large sign that reads "if you want a trophey bad enough to cheat for it then take this one"


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*maybe*

they were shooting 31 targets


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## Boonie_Hunter (Jan 14, 2005)

We shoot all Rhinehart targets at our club and they seal very quickly. We had one target at our last shoot that after the shoot was over and we picked up targets it looked like it hadnt been shot. 

I think your right though some people would rather win and cheat instead of go through the extra work to get better and REALLY win.


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## benchleg90 (Feb 19, 2005)

Shoot for a score the first day and then group like scores together. It realy shows who is the cheater. Its funny to see the guys that cheat get out scored by the group by 50+ points the next day.


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## ltheis (Mar 31, 2005)

You know i have been shooting 3d with a buddy of mine and my wife for a while now and have become pretty good. I usualy finish top 3 at my local shoot, and top 5 at other area shoots that are a little tougher. Well in quest for new things i stared attending a shoot about 75mi away in another town and let me tell you did i get whiped so of course i keep going back thinking i need to keep shooting here to step up my game these guys are whipping me bad. Then one weekend i had to go to this same shoot on my own so i got partnered up with a few locals and this is where it all goes down hill. These guys would stand away from the stake in order to avoid tree branches and what-not, The would score 10's/12's on shots that were an inch away from the higher scoring ring and to top it all off at the end of the day one guy in our group even shoot from the wrong stake all day. I guess the bottom line is some folks play fair and others don't and that's just 3d in diffrent places.


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## PA Dave (Jan 3, 2005)

huntelk said:


> I can't imagine it being a good feeling to look at a trophy on the wall that I did't really win but I am sure there are some people that will cheat anyway.


Often the people who are willing to cheat in order to win an award or trophy are living in a Reality Optional World, and by the time they get it home they are convinced that it is something they really did earn. Either they deceive themselves into thinking that what they did was not cheating, or they deceive themselves into believing that everyone else does it, too, so the competition was fair. I've seen it up close (not in archery), and it isn't pretty. 

Cheatin' archers are getting off light. Look at the woman who cheated in the Boston Marathon way back when. To this day, the running community will not let her compete and will not even lower themselves to say her name in print - complete outcast. Maybe we should take a page from their book.


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## springgobbler (Aug 18, 2003)

*What Do You All Mean By...*

....saying "shot a ## up" or down?

Newbie, just trying to understand what that means about the score....

Thanks! :beer:


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

springgobbler said:


> ....saying "shot a ## up" or down?
> 
> Newbie, just trying to understand what that means about the score....
> 
> Thanks! :beer:


i think their refering to how many points down you are from the most possible like shooting 300, if you shot 10 down you shot a---290. If you shot 10 up you shot a 310.


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## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

fgpatton-ky said:


> sounds good to me. I write my score down the way it is. I want to win fair and square. I think they should have some kind of range official with you cause its to easy to cheat. I can't beleave that some big shoots like the world and IBO qualifing let you go and keep your own score!



I've never shot at the Worlds. But I have shot a qualifier, and granted, I was able to record my own score.

But I have read all the IBO rules. If I'm not mistaken, at the IBO "big shoots" Triple Crown, Worlds, etc., you have to have double scorekeeping. Two people are assigned to keep score. And a group has to be "busted". Buddies can shoot in the same group as long as there is a stranger shooting with them. And the other member has to be one of the score keepers.

I think this is the way it works. Correct me if I'm wrong. :shade:


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

kidnutso said:


> I've never shot at the Worlds. But I have shot a qualifier, and granted, I was able to record my own score.
> 
> But I have read all the IBO rules. If I'm not mistaken, at the IBO "big shoots" Triple Crown, Worlds, etc., you have to have double scorekeeping. Two people are assigned to keep score. And a group has to be "busted". Buddies can shoot in the same group as long as there is a stranger shooting with them. And the other member has to be one of the score keepers.
> 
> I think this is the way it works. Correct me if I'm wrong. :shade:


You say a group has to be busted, who knows who came with who, who know so and so is your buddie, you could come around and act like you don't know each other thats to simple of a way around that!


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## lakertaker40 (Feb 8, 2005)

I would like to think two or three or four in one group shooting in the same class with two sets of score cards at a qualifier would have a hard time cheating with the competition between that group. The score cards need to match to qualify.


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## 1moyard (Jan 2, 2004)

*It sucks*

I am not going to mention any club names but there was a problum a couple of years ago with a couple of clubs in my area of Ky. I just stoped shooting them and headed south to shoot in Tn it could happen there as well but I am not aware of it. There was a older man and Woman shooting together for a couple of years that was finaly asked not to come back to any of the local shoots for cheating.
If you ever want to get together and head to Nashville and shoot give me a hollar and we will get it done.


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## bowdoodler (Feb 9, 2005)

fgpatton-ky said:


> You say a group has to be busted, who knows who came with who, who know so and so is your buddie, you could come around and act like you don't know each other thats to simple of a way around that!


at worlds you cant do that cause you get your tee times right on your scorecard


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## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

fgpatton-ky said:


> You say a group has to be busted, who knows who came with who, who know so and so is your buddie, you could come around and act like you don't know each other thats to simple of a way around that!



You know...at the big IBO shoots, you do have to register before the shoot...they have your address. I think they could make a reasonable observation that if one of your group lives in a different state, that he's not your buddy.


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## norsask darton (May 8, 2005)

*getting pencil whipped*

:thumbs_do hey gentlemen, it is nice to hear that we're not the only shooters that get pencil whipped. I've been to shoots up here in Saskatchewan and been beat by guys by upto 20 points, consistently. The sweet thing about this situation is, you never know who you'll get drawn to shoot with at the provincials. The guys who consistently outscore me, funny enough, usually about 20-30 pts. behind me. Mind you we don't have the population of shooters like the States, but I did learn that the more people you get to know, the more that see the same pattern with the same guy. More easily seen with a small amount of shooters. The reputation the build is made of sand and it eventually comes and takes a bite out of their ass. 

Norsask darton


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## gbh97 (Aug 15, 2004)

Here in VA a club that I shoot at went to a shotgun start this year with all groups drawn from a hat format. It has helped considerably and has sped up the shoot times by forcing those shooting open or elite classes to stick to their time limits. That was a terrible problem in the past and is still a problem at some shoots. It even happened at the IBO qualifier a few weeks ago.


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## 2005Ultramag (Apr 3, 2005)

ultramax said:


> One idea I had was to set a large trophey behind the check in with a large sign that reads "if you want a trophey bad enough to cheat for it then take this one"


Good idea.  

I'm a rookie, and I am too much of a novice to even try to compete with experienced shooters. I'm currently competing with myself, and my last score. I don't turn in my cards just so I can track my progress.


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## HT Redneck (Sep 9, 2004)

*Shoot off*

We go to one shoot in later in the fall that is a Bowhunter oriented so they do not count X's at all just ten's. This levels the top shooters off pretty close. Then they have a 5 or 6 target shoot off for the top shooters per class.

The shoot off is done in such a way that all of the spectators can watch shooters at all of the stations at the same time. You want to see a pencil pusher melt put them in front of about 100 people for a shoot off. I will guarentee thay do not cheat the next time.

This also adds some excitement to the end of the day. Head to head competition.

They do track X's in th shoot of for a tie breaker.

I do like the idea of a dedicated pencil pusher trophy.

HT-*******


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## MEarchernut (Dec 21, 2004)

*Pencil whipping*

Unfortunetly I witnessed a prime example of this at a big shoot this past weekend. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the shooters there felt the same way. A group of 3 shooters turned in phenominal scores with all three winning their class going away. Two of the shooters already had the "heavy pencil" reputation - the third guy was a buddy of theirs and unknown to anyone as a "top shooter". During competition amoung class winners in front of many witnesses their shooting skills mysteriously evaporated with one guy shooting an 8 and the other two just barely avoiding a miss by hanging their arrows down in the leg for fives - all three were eliminated in the first round. Funny thing is the target they were shooting was one they had already shot as part of their "awesome rounds" and stakes had not been moved. You can bet I wasn't the only one who wanted to call them out - without proof though there was nothing anyone could do. I just hope they feel good about what they accomplished as several very good shooters who had worked hard in preperation for this shoot were cheated out of their rightful place. On a positive note several shooters were congratulated by others who realized what the true order of finish should have been. As these guys have done this before it seems peer groups will be the only thing that will prevent them from doing it again. It wouldn't be much fun shooting with people you can't stand though despite the satisfaction of giving them a royal "beatdown". I don't know if they ever visit this site or not (I doubt it) if they do read this I hope they think about it real hard and realize that no one was fooled.


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## PA Dave (Jan 3, 2005)

MEarchernut said:


> I don't know if they ever visit this site or not (I doubt it) if they do read this I hope they think about it real hard and realize that no one was fooled.


I doubt that someone willing to lie about their scores in front of witnesses would have a firm enough grasp of reality to see themselves in this thread anyway.


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## MEarchernut (Dec 21, 2004)

PA Dave said:


> I doubt that someone willing to lie about their scores in front of witnesses would have a firm enough grasp of reality to see themselves in this thread anyway.


Good point - I'm sure they wouldn't even open the tread let alone read any posts. I guess you have to be a little "off" to want a trophy that badly.


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## wildcats5350 (Jul 19, 2005)

most of the time in our group one person keeps score while everyone else takes turns pulling arrows. We never turn in our cards any way we just like to shoot for practice and most of all to have fun


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## BOWdacious (Jun 13, 2002)

I shoot with my husband and my son most of the time.They are tougher on scoring than a stranger would be.As I said this weekend...if someone accused me of cheating after seeing my score I would suggest a shrink for some psychotherapy to help them with their delusions :wink: 
As my Mom has taught me.....if they can die with it,I can live with it.Cheaters will always get their comeuppance at some point in their lives.


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## THEMan1976 (Oct 23, 2004)

*Yep, heard it before*

We seperate everyone in Kansas Deerman events. Not only keeping the playing field even, but you also get to shoot with new folks. I love meeting new people and never think of pencil whipping. It only hurts yourself. If you need a trophy that bad, go buy one at an awards shop. My wife just kicked butt at our last shoot and got nothing for it. She whooped me bad in our back yard when I was only about 20 points off. With 15's and -5's thats not much. All from the same stakes. She was as proud as could be and so was I. And we didn't get any trophies. Separating people not only lets you meet people, but if some would put arrogance aside, they might learn something too. Pencil whipping is for the cocky, insecure wimps that might as well cry when they lose a $12 arrow and throw a tantrum when they have a bad day. Do us all a favor and take all of your archery equipment and find a deep well and drop it in. You don't fool us, we know we shoot good. Competing against yourself is what its all about. Always shoot better than last time. 

Oh yeah, 
Pencil pushers, pen pushers and pencil whippers, suck!


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I do well on some 3D shoot and some of the locals get worked up over my score. During this one shoot a guy beat me by 6 points that has never ever even come close to my score. Well then came the shoot off with the top 5 scores highest shooting first. The first shot was under 30 yards and on a black bear the guy who " beat me by 6" got a big fat 8 not even close to a ten. HHMMmmmmm. And Yes I shot a 10 when it was my turn and so did the other guys.


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