# Is your recurve setup "on plane" ???



## Matt_Potter

Thank you for taking the time to post this

Matt


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## limbwalker

Matt, you're welcome. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

This has always been one of my little "nuggets" that I enjoyed showing my students and friends, while pointing out to them that most of their competitors were shooting bows that were off plane and didn't even know it...

An "ace" up the sleeve as it were. But it's high time that everyone knows this stuff because life is just too short to shoot a poorly tuned bow... 

John.


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## titanium man

Excellent tutorial. Thanks!


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## tigersdad

John, Thanks for setting up Alyssa's bow today. Big thanks for posting this since I was manning my cubicle all day and missed being there. Have I said "WoW" for your 30 "tens" at state that your tuned bow helped you to shoot. Now to check my setup....


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## limbwalker

My pleasure. She's a great young lady and one heck of a shot! We wrapped up the session with her pounding out a nine and two baby "x's" and she left with a big smile on her face. At least now she has confidence that her gear is up to the task and will do whatever she's capable of doing.

John


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## lksseven

on the Hoyt Formula RX, don't try to remove the dowel without first loosening the little hex screw in the hole where the limb alignment nib seats. The manual makes no mention of it at all.


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## Seattlepop

I use something similar to your method, John. My Matrix grip is suited for aligning two arrows as shown. Simply remove grip and use bare riser. Of course if you use all that ergly tape it wouldn't be as easy  I've always assumed recurve grips are centered and parallel this way. Is the latest generation this way? 

I rubber banded the arrows here to take pics, but normally just hold them for visual check. This way you can check both the orientation of the stab and the string alignment. As you can see here, both are nicely centered between the arrows. 

View attachment 1297491
View attachment 1297493
View attachment 1297494


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## Borderbows

what riser face do you use, to square up the bow, when the surfaces are linished, and can be out of plane themselves.
Not all risers are cut square, just like long rod bushes are square?

really good thread, this is just one question ive always had when looking to true up a bow.
i supppose you just have to do your best with what you have eh?

My question is that some risers have the pockets rotationally out. So like an Aircraft you have Yaw Pitch and roll. Yaw is the dovetail left/right movement, Pitch is the limb bolt movement, and roll is something you cant adjust.
Inno CXT Shims are suppose to address this.
BUT if the riser is out of Plane limb face to riser sides, then you will have to adjust with yaw to pull the limb tips inline with the bows centre. which is just simply wrong, the limb just wont track right.
this is my problem with adjustable setups. It accomodates sloppy manufacturing, and only accounts for 2/3rd of the concerns.

if bow pockets are milled at 95 degress to the face, since some swarf got in thier, rather than a clean 90 degrees then this check is simply out of sync.
as the arrows or bow square will sit 5 deg out to square. if you see hwat i mean, but the limbs will track fine as they are in plane with eachother, and in plane to the line of the pocket faces.


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## Borderbows

id sooner take a riser where the pockets were 100% true to eachother, and put up with a face being out than limbs tracking badly. the reason for this is the bows launch point is a dot, a single loaction that doesnt care about the squareness of the faces. your button doesnt care, its just your limb alignment that cares since you dont want your limbs tracking oddly as that puts a bit of a fight between them. i suppose its kinda like karma between your limbs. and thats dictated by the risers limb pockets and not the riser sides.


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## julle

thanks for posting this, i'm going to check right away! I've been having weird problems with my bow for a while. These how to topics are much appreciated.


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## TheAncientOne

It's amazing how after 40 plus years of archery there is still new tricks to learn. Thanks John!

TAO


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## limbwalker

Seattlepop, that's what I used to do with some risers, but I'm to lazy to take off the grip, esp. when I have grip tape wrapped on it. But what you're doing there works perfectly.

Sid, don't get all technical on me now... ha, ha  

Yes, some risers make it difficult (like my Bernardini Luxor) to find a matching flat surface on both sides, but I've managed to find one on every riser I've worked on. If for some reason you couldn't, then I suppose you could calculate the centershot of the sight window and measure from there. The sight window is almost always flat on most bows. Measuring centershot is a lot of trouble though, and you have to remember that distance every time and add or subtract it. Much easier to just measure equally from both sides of the bow.

TAO, I think I just saw a couple more light bulbs go off... 

Fun stuff. 

John


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## Matt_Potter

John would you mind posting a pic (or just explaining) where you measured your Luxor from - the only spot that looks like it will work is right below the grip.

Matt


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## kenn1320

John, are you saying you can use beiter limb gauges and get your string tracking thru them perfectly, but still not have the bow on plane? Im having a hard time understanding how that is possible? Also what do guys do that shoot non adustable risers, like the Best Moon or others?
Thinking more about this, you are aligning the limbs thru their centers and then laying them both over evenly until the string is tracking thru the center of the riser, not the center of the limbs. You have found this to be more accurate/forgiving then leaving them "in line" and adjusting the plunger in/out? Hard to argue with your success, just hard to get my head around.


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## Seattlepop

kenn1320 said:


> John, are you saying *you can use beiter limb gauges and get your string tracking thru them perfectly, but still not have the bow on plane*? Im having a hard time understanding how that is possible? Also what do guys do that shoot non adustable risers, like the Best Moon or others?
> Thinking more about this, you are aligning the limbs thru their centers and then laying them both over evenly until the string is tracking thru the center of the riser, not the center of the limbs. You have found this to be more accurate/forgiving then leaving them "in line" and adjusting the plunger in/out? Hard to argue with your success, just hard to get my head around.


This pic shows the Beiter gauges aligned, but the bow is out of plane. In this case, both limbs are canted to the left. I use the gauges and then check to see if that alignment is "on plane" with the riser.


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## julle

this is Hell, getting the limbs to to track true is easy but making them traight with the riser is almost impossible, at least with the centrifugal bolt that is on my bow. Been at it for over an hour and every time i have the string running trough the middle of the riser the limbs are of, when i then adjust them to to run straight its all back to zero again. I i think i"ll be staying at the club all night....... :|


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## Neo888

Thanks a lot for this, great way to check where is the middle instead of eyeballing.... 

Immediately went down to the garage after reading this to check my bow, never thought that factory set up GMX would be off from center to the right with about 2 mm.
Adjusted now to center (after needed to adjust plunger and sight too....), groups tightened vertically a lot!

Thanks again.


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## julle

I mean eccentric bolt


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## Greysides

kenn1320 said:


> ......... what do guys do that shoot non adustable risers, like the Best Moon or others?


No lateral alignment system in a Best Moon........................ pray!

Thanks John, very useful post.


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## kenn1320

Seattlepop said:


> This pic shows the Beiter gauges aligned, but the bow is out of plane. In this case, both limbs are canted to the left. I use the gauges and then check to see if that alignment is "on plane" with the riser.


 So when you put the limbs in plane, they are no longer running thru the center of the beiter gauges right? The main bolts dont move, just the dove tail slot, so to align with the riser, you must tilt the limbs to the right, taking them out of alignment to align the string to the riser.


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## julle

turns out my riser doesn't have a single spot where it is symmetrical and straight enough to to lay a bow square on. Even underneath my grip the aluminium is malformed, like it's been cast but they ran out of molten aluminum so it left a big gash and a wobbly appearance... Pity I noticed this only 4 years after I bought it.


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## Georgemay

julle said:


> turns out my riser doesn't have a single spot where it is symmetrical and straight enough to to lay a bow square on. Even underneath my grip the aluminium is malformed, like it's been cast but they ran out of molten aluminum so it left a big gash and a wobbly appearance... Pity I noticed this only 4 years after I bought it.


How about replacing temporarily limb bolts locking grub screws with bolts long enough to almost reach the string, and see if it centers? Well, you actually do not have to remove locking grub screws. Just turn in the long enough threaded rod into the limb bolt hole. 

GM


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## tkaap

Neo888 said:


> never thought that factory set up GMX would be off from center to the right with about 2 mm.


Where on the GMX did you use for measuring off of? The best place I found was the rounded section around the main stabilizer bushing, but that seems unreliable.

As far as I could measure, my GMX seems spot on from its factory settings, but I'm not sure that that means I'm doing it correctly.

-T


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## Seattlepop

kenn1320 said:


> So when you put the limbs in plane, they are no longer running thru the center of the beiter gauges right? The main bolts dont move, just the dove tail slot, so to align with the riser, you must tilt the limbs to the right, taking them out of alignment to align the string to the riser.


You are correct that I can't move the main limb bolts other than in/out, no affect on alignment. For this test I simply loosened the dowel bolts that hold the dove tail and moved both limbs to the left (looking from rear POV). If you moved the limbs back toward the center they would align "in plane" again. 

Look at the example in question and imagine moving your head to the right(which is all I did with the camera for this next pic). You would then see this:










Now you can see that your POV is in plane with the riser/stabilizer, but the limbs are canted to the left and the string is not aligned w/ the gauges. Now visualize moving the limbs back to center and you can see how the Beiters/limbs would be back "on plane", ie aligned with the riser, string centered.


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## limbwalker

Seattlepop, Thanks for the "assist" on this one! Great photos btw.

Just got home from a 300 mile trip with my daughter to teach archery to some college students at my alma mater. They left hoping they could someday shoot as good as the 11 year-old I brought with me! ha, ha. Good day, but we're exhausted now.



> John, are you saying you can use beiter limb gauges and get your string tracking thru them perfectly, but still not have the bow on plane?


Kenn, this is exactly what I'm saying, and it's more common than not on bows I look at.



> Also what do guys do that shoot non adustable risers, like the Best Moon or others?


Easy. Get straight limbs and then never worry about a thing after that... 



> you are aligning the limbs thru their centers and then laying them both over evenly until the string is tracking thru the center of the riser, not the center of the limbs. You have found this to be more accurate/forgiving then leaving them "in line" and adjusting the plunger in/out? Hard to argue with your success, just hard to get my head around.


If you have alignment adjustment, there will always be a way you can align both limbs AND the plane of the riser at the same time. That's what you want.

John


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## kenn1320

> If you have alignment adjustment, there will always be a way you can align both limbs AND the plane of the riser at the same time. That's what you want.
> 
> John


 "If" you could align the limbs and then move them left/right without changing thier relationship to each other, then and only then could you align them to the plane/center of the riser. However as pointed out you cannot move the limb bolts, so this is not possible. John I suspect the limbs you have been working with have not been that far out of spec. I had a set of limbs I bought one time that were so out in left field there was nothing that could be done with them. I had to send them back. The bennefit I see from ensuring the string is down the center of the riser is less side torque that would be implied. One has to determine the trade off between limbs that arent aligned, but the string is tracking down the center, or have the string track true with the limbs and have the string possibly be slightly out of plane. Im sure many get lucky and have it work out perfectly, but I suspect many dont even check limb alignment. Interesting subject John. I have never measured as you have here, but have penciled a line/mark on my riser when I had that set of screwed up limbs to see what was going on.


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## m013690

I would think that rather than trying to find the perfectly parallel sections on opposite sides of the riser, you could just visually align the string down the centers of the limbs AND through both of the limb bolts. Or am I missing something with that simplification? That's how I've always done it, and now I'm wondering if it's insufficient.


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## Georgemay

I got rid of Beiter's limb gauges long time ago. If I have to pick measuring center plane versus eyeballing with my eyesight.. I prefer measuring method. :wink: With beiters I could line up gauges, limb bolts, string and still was 2mm off plane.

GM


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## ArtV

I don't know about all this stuff, but I sure want one of those red bow squares!!!!:jeez:


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## Neo888

tkaap said:


> Where on the GMX did you use for measuring off of? The best place I found was the rounded section around the main stabilizer bushing, but that seems unreliable.
> 
> As far as I could measure, my GMX seems spot on from its factory settings, but I'm not sure that that means I'm doing it correctly.
> 
> -T


I found 2 places where i could get repeatable measurement, i got the same results at both location also from the original 2mm off plane status, and also after adjustment.
I was needing to move only 1 washer both top and bottom from right plunger side to the left window side, and the string is perfectly centered now.


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## limbwalker

Yup, that's an easy one there. Some risers, esp. the carbon ones, have few flat surfaces to use and get a little more tricky.

All reasons why I appreciate what PSE did with their X-appeal. You don't even need a bowsquare for their handle. Just lay an arrow in the groove and look!

John


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## Borderbows

let me try and explain what i was getting at.
A riser can be twisted in 2 ways, and both with show up like this:

















so to get a limb lined up nice you would wind the limb over on the adjusters.
but in this particular example this would be wrong.









one limb pocket was rotationally out. This means that the limb leaned over and needed propped up rather than shoved over.

We have seen risers where both limb pockets were inline with each other, but were rotationally not square to the riser.

This means to achieve the measurements your trying for here, the limbs would both have to be twisted out of thier natural tracking.

What im saying is that the pivot point, and limb pads need to be all on the same axis, same plane, and inline. so that the limbs track straight. and the bow is not banana'd to the left or right.
This would casue pull and release torque if not straight.

The faces of the riser, can wobble left and right, as long as the pivot point is inline with the plane of the limb pull direction.
I think thats what your trying to achive, but the faces in my view cannot be trusted, since it can throw the limbs out of tracking.
they would show up like the first picture.

(does that make sence)


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## Borderbows

Taking this thought one step further.
The lateral grip adjustment on some riser, the shim that allows you to move the grip can put the grip in centre with the plane of the limb pads, as your trying to show.
lets have a look at this. Lets put the grip 2" off the the side of the bow and watch the bow twist itself to bits. 
but if the limb pads are rotationally out, to the point where the axis of the limbs rotates round this 2" off centre grip, the bow will track ok, and be fully inline. but now the faces you using will be several degrees off centre.


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## julle

Georgemay said:


> How about replacing temporarily limb bolts locking grub screws with bolts long enough to almost reach the string, and see if it centers? Well, you actually do not have to remove locking grub screws. Just turn in the long enough threaded rod into the limb bolt hole.
> 
> GM












Thanks for the advice, but I don't think that is possible with my riser ?


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## limbwalker

Sid, I understand exactly what you're getting at. I used to test the limb pocket for square with arrow shafts just like you're doing above. However, since there is really nothing that can be done about that (unless you want to shim your limb pockets like we used to do with the old magnesium risers) and most archers aren't going to go to those extremes, I think it's just best that we at least get the bow shooting on plane as closely as we can with the adjustment systems that we have available to us.

Incidentally, my red Axis riser that I've shot now for 7 years and achieved all my best outdoor scores with has twisted limb pockets. 

John


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## limbwalker

Julle, yes it is, but you would first have to remove the locking screw from the back of limb bolt. 

However, that's a lot of trouble to go through.

Here's what I would suggest to you. Run a straight line from the center of each limb bolt and try to measure the distance from that line to the flat part of your sight window. This is how you measure window centershot. Once you know this number, you can use your bowsquare laid flat along your sight window to measure back to the string and see if it's on plane.

John


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## midwayarcherywi

Another screaming endorsement for precision in the manufacture of risers. The mention of cost always seems to creep into the discussion when talking about making a riser that is perfectly straight, with no limb adjusters. What is it worth to a skilled archer to not worry about the variables Sid and John are talking about? The only variable would then be if the limbs you are placing on the riser are straight.

The Best Zenit and the no longer manufactured BMG Extreme, are two excellent risers, where these variables are eliminated. I would pay up for a quality riser that is perfectly straight. How about you?


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## Borderbows

midwayarcherywi said:


> Another screaming endorsement for precision in the manufacture of risers. The mention of cost always seems to creep into the discussion when talking about making a riser that is perfectly straight, with no limb adjusters. What is it worth to a skilled archer to not worry about the variables Sid and John are talking about? The only variable would then be if the limbs you are placing on the riser are straight.
> 
> The Best Zenit and the no longer manufactured BMG Extreme, are two excellent risers, where these variables are eliminated. I would pay up for a quality riser that is perfectly straight. How about you?


I agree wholehartedly.

I feel its a shame when your pay top dollar for a riser, and its no straighter than some of the cheaper ones.
Its not the archers problem to straighten up a bow.
You would never want a bent bow, so why would having an adjuster to straighten it be an advanatge.
If it has an adjustable setup id want all the adjusters, including yaw, Pitch AND Roll. You only get two at present.

imagine compounds with these adjustments.
Left/ right limb alignment, and left right grip alignment. Ive seen the vids on Cam derailments, and thats the kind of torque that your talking about. Bow hand out of alingment with the 90 deg axis of the limb pockets.

The left right limb alignment of the grip is to put the string inline with the grip and 100% 90 deg to the string, and it hink this is what John is getting at. When infact we have seen risers where this is not possible, without compromising the tracking of the limbs. (tips pulling off to one side when you draw the bow back)


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## Borderbows

limbwalker said:


> Sid, I understand exactly what you're getting at. I used to test the limb pocket for square with arrow shafts just like you're doing above. However, since there is really nothing that can be done about that (unless you want to shim your limb pockets like we used to do with the old magnesium risers) and most archers aren't going to go to those extremes, I think it's just best that we at least get the bow shooting on plane as closely as we can with the adjustment systems that we have available to us.
> 
> Incidentally, my red Axis riser that I've shot now for 7 years and achieved all my best outdoor scores with has twisted limb pockets.
> 
> John


Our limbs do require a straight chassis.

We have seen risers with both pockets equally out, making the limb pockets say 95 degs to the flats on the riser.
straight but not 90 deg to the flats.
I would suggest that risers with less deflex will show this up less. but risers with deflex would need the grip pushed off to one side, to put the grip inline too. irrespective of flats on the riser, grip, pull and limbpads all have to be inline.
a shim in the grip could be used to put the grip back into line on a riser thats not 90 deg to the limb pads?


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## kenn1320

Borderbows said:


> Our limbs do require a straight chassis.
> 
> We have seen risers with both pockets equally out, making the limb pockets say 95 degs to the flats on the riser.
> straight but not 90 deg to the flats.
> I would suggest that risers with less deflex will show this up less. but risers with deflex would need the grip pushed off to one side, to put the grip inline too. irrespective of flats on the riser, grip, pull and limbpads all have to be inline.
> a shim in the grip could be used to put the grip back into line on a riser thats not 90 deg to the limb pads?


 This I can see working Sid. If you align the limbs and the string does not align with the grip, then moving the grip is the only way to fix this issue. Of course we know your hand position on the grip is not a single line contact, so knowing where to put the grip can be a challenge in itself. 
I think the better question here is how can you measure/determine if "your" contact on the grip is in line with the string?


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## tkaap

Neo888 said:


> I found 2 places where i could get repeatable measurement, i got the same results at both location also from the original 2mm off plane status, and also after adjustment.
> I was needing to move only 1 washer both top and bottom from right plunger side to the left window side, and the string is perfectly centered now.


Thanks for the detail.

I measured at the green line (#3). Since there is a slight outward lip where line #2 is, I hesitated to try to measure from there. I couldn't tell if that outward lip "made the edge flat", or "made that edge un-flat".

I'll try measuring from your lines, too, and see what I find out.

-T


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## Borderbows

kenn1320 said:


> This I can see working Sid. If you align the limbs and the string does not align with the grip, then moving the grip is the only way to fix this issue. Of course we know your hand position on the grip is not a single line contact, so knowing where to put the grip can be a challenge in itself.
> I think the better question here is how can you measure/determine if "your" contact on the grip is in line with the string?


im a bowyer, not a coach. :angel:

that i dont know. Johns original point is hugely valid, and its one method of keeping things inline, but there are pitfalls and that is the limb tips still need to be central to the limb bolts as per the riser manual.

The problem with risers being adjustable is, you can have a "C" shapped bow, known to self bow makers as a banana'ed bow, where both limbs are off to the same side. This shows up in johns test. and the string is off to one side. Also shows in a tip to tip balance, the bow sways off to one side. string lines up central to the riser. but the tips are out
"Z" or "S" shapped bow, where the tips are central, to the limbs but the string runs diagonal through the riser, but the bow balances properly as the string is over the middle of the riser. The limbs tend not to track straight in either these two examples

"L" shaped kinda looks like a "C" shape, but when the bow is allowed to hang, it tends to hang straighter on one limb than the other. but the string doesnt line up through the riser, nor does one limb run true with itself.
Straighten this up and you will find the other end looks out now, but not by as much, one limb pulls the other over a little.

the only one that is straight is the one where the bow is straight, but the cause of the miss alignment can be a rotationally out pocket or a laterally out pocket.
and the only adjustement you have is lateral.

and risers can suffer from either.


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## jhinaz

My head hurts! 
If I was a person considering buying a bow for the first time and I read all this technocrap I would take up a different sport/hobby. It's shouldn't be that difficult.....adjust what you can and just shoot the bow. - John


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## limbwalker

John, it's not that difficult. Just follow the directions in my initial post. 

If a person can't do that, then IMO they simply won't reach their potential in this sport. A lot is made of technique, as it should be, but perfect technique with imperfectly prepared equipment only leads to much frustration. I know a few "level 4" coaches that haven't figured this out yet unfortunately.

John


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## lksseven

jhinaz,

Surely someone contemplating learning how to play the piano would understand that there's a big gap between chopsticks and Mozart.


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## jhinaz

limbwalker said:


> John, it's not that difficult. Just follow the directions in my initial post.
> 
> If a person can't do that, then IMO they simply won't reach their potential in this sport. A lot is made of technique, as it should be, but perfect technique with imperfectly prepared equipment only leads to much frustration. I know a few "level 4" coaches that haven't figured this out yet unfortunately.
> 
> John


I have performed these adjustments for a long time now using instructions that Denise Parker had published in a Hoyt Technical Bulletin. I think the instructions & pictures in Limbwalker's original post (and added to by Seattlepop) explain the problem & correction process rather well. IMO the introduction of 'roll' into the discussion (which the archer can do very little/nothing to correct it) just makes the topic of 'string on-plane with the riser' more difficult than it needs to be for a person that may be having trouble figuring it all out in the first place. Just my $.02 - John

Larry, 
I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't understand the point of your comment. 'Learning how to play the piano' does not involve having to adjust or tune it......ever! If that were the case I'm sure there'd be fewer people taking up playing the piano.


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## limbwalker

> IMO the introduction of 'roll' into the discussion (which the archer can do very little/nothing to correct it) just makes the topic of 'string on-plane with the riser' more difficult than it needs to be for a person that may be having trouble figuring it all out in the first place.


Agreed.


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## kshatriya

An idea to check if your bow is in plane. Run a ruler between the centers of the back of your limb bolts. Run a string between the centers of your limb bolts on the other side. Place an arrow shaft or some other straight edge up against your string and the ruler. If your bow is in plane, the shaft should just touch the string. This is probably going to be off by a little bit because of string thickness, but it should provide a pretty good measure for risers without a clear surface to place a square on.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Also, doesn't centering on the limbs as well as the limb bolts achieve an "on plane" bow?


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## Seattlepop

kshatriya said:


> An idea to check if your bow is in plane. Run a ruler between the centers of the back of your limb bolts. Run a string between the centers of your limb bolts on the other side. Place an arrow shaft or some other straight edge up against your string and the ruler. If your bow is in plane, the shaft should just touch the string. This is probably going to be off by a little bit because of string thickness, but it should provide a pretty good measure for risers without a clear surface to place a square on.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong?


I tried to follow you, but I didn't have enough hands! 



kshatriya said:


> Also, d*oesn't centering on the limbs as well as the limb bolts achieve an "on plane" bow*?


Only if it already is. The problem is that it can be a false positive if you don't look at the other factors involved which I think is what John has presented (and I just happened to have some photo examples saved from a thread a year or so ago). 

Here is the example of gauges and limb bolts appearing to be fairly in line, but not in plane:


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## m013690

kshatriya; said:


> Also, doesn't centering on the limbs as well as the limb bolts achieve an "on plane" bow?


this is the same question I asked 2 days ago and never saw an answer to. All due respect to Seattlepop for the answer you just gave, but I don't think it proves your point. In the photo you posted, it's fairly easy to see that the bottom limb is canted off to the right, with the string passing to the right of centerline.

But for Kshatriya: I've been thinking about it, and If you assume that the limb tips are in the exact centers of the limbs (might be q good assumption, might not). But if they are, then you are in effect lining up 6 different reference points on one visual line. That's two limb tips, two limb center marks, two limb bolts. Because each of those pairs of points also defines a line segment, any visual point of view that aligns them all simultaneously MUST also be a plane.

I'm not a mathematician, but from geometry I remember enough to piece that together. The limb bolts and the limb centers alone would define a plane, but it could potentially be anywhere. If you assume the limb tips are centered, then you create a plane with the limb centers and the limb tips, and you're checking to be sure THAT plane includes the line between limbbolts.

I suspect the guy from Border Bows will dispute the validity of the assumption about centered limb tips -- and for good reason. I'm basing my reasoning, however, on a theoretical construct that I think is probably fairly reasonable for the quality of limbs most likely to be involved in the adjustments we're discussing here -- is anybody going to check their kid's Polaris bow to be sure it's "on-plane?"


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## jhinaz

m013690 said:


> But for Kshatriya: I've been thinking about it, and If you assume that the limb tips are in the exact centers of the limbs (might be q good assumption, might not). But if they are, then you are in effect lining up 6 different reference points on one visual line. That's two limb tips, two limb center marks, two limb bolts. Because each of those pairs of points also defines a line segment, any visual point of view that aligns them all simultaneously MUST also be a plane.


Yes, what you describe would be on plane.....with the FRONT of the riser (facing you), but might not be on plane with the BACK of the riser. The adjustments that Limbwalker and Seattlepop have described are intended to put the limbs on plane with the front AND back of the riser. - John


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## lksseven

jhinaz said:


> Larry,
> I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't understand the point of your comment. 'Learning how to play the piano' does not involve having to adjust or tune it......ever! If that were the case I'm sure there'd be fewer people taking up playing the piano.


John (jhinaz),

Sorry if I sounded flip, I didn't mean to (should have taken more time with my comment). And you're right of course - learning to play the piano is completely separate from adjusting/tuning it.

Your original comment caught my eye because it was similar to a discussion I had with a friend recently who was contemplating getting a bow for he and his wife and 'doing a little shooting' on some property in Hill country they go to sometimes on the weekends. I gave him the link to a couple of past threads on here, so he'd kind of know what would be involved in choosing equipment and the tuning process. His comment back to me was "I don't want to perform Mozart at the Met, ok? I just want to bang out some show tunes that are recognizable." So that's where my comment came from.

I've know him since we were 6, and say what he might, I knew he wouldn't be happy for more than a few minutes just throwing the basketball up at the backboard/rim but never putting it through the hoop. 
I knew he'd spend $2,000 on equip for he and his wife, and she'd quickly decide it wasn't for her, and he'd quickly want to get better, or else would quickly get bored. So I kind of laid out for him all of the complexities that he would eventually have to tackle (the 'detail chasing' tuning things that I love about archery, but his personality doesn't run nearly as hard in that direction) in order to continue to make the progress that would keep him interested in recurve, so that he would be spending his $$$ with his eyes wide open. He's now considering maybe he should get a compound bow that he could 'shoot a little bit and hunt with' (which is probably a good first step for this particular guy. If he stops right there, then fine. If he gets the bug and chooses to go to recurve, then he'll have some idea about how it 'tastes' before he jumps in).

As a followup thought on the piano, the frustrating thing about recurve - in the pursuit of trying to get more participants - is how individualized/tailored the equipment must be to each person. If every person learning to play the piano had to have his/her own piano scaled size-wise just to his hands/arm length/finger strength/finger limberness/etc, there would be a lot fewer people playing the piano.

Best Regards,


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## limbwalker

Larry, you're sure right about that! But I kinda see recurves as the "one size fits all" bow vs. a compound, although compounds are certainly getting more adjustable these days. 

Look, limb alignment systems gave us more capability, but like a new software program, you can either use it or not, or wish you were still running the old version. Your choice 

John


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## m013690

jhinaz said:


> Yes, what you describe would be on plane.....with the FRONT of the riser (facing you), but might not be on plane with the BACK of the riser. The adjustments that Limbwalker and Seattlepop have described are intended to put the limbs on plane with the front AND back of the riser. - John


Certainly you're correct. But the case in which the front of the riser and back of the riser would not be in plane together wod be a non-ideal situation such as the riser being twisted or the bolt holes being tapped non-perpendicular. But since such a situation is possible - which it certainly is - we should acknowledge tgat Limbwalker's method doesn't necessarily ensure it's perfectly in plane with the whole riser either. It actually is only ensuring in plane with the PORTION of the riser being used as "true" to place the bow square against. But if a riser could be twisted and negate my proposed method, could that same twisting not potentially negate the trueness of the section of the riser he uses to place the bow square against.

I swear I'm not trying to be contrary, and I KNOW John knows a lot more than me. We learn by questioning, and that's all I'm trying to do here. I like to understand WHY things are, not just HOW.


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## limbwalker

Let's not overthink this stuff guys. It's really not necessary to get so particular. After all, as soon as you release the string, it's off-plane to begin with. 

Just use these adjustments and measurements to get it close and then go shoot! 

I just pointed all this out because I've seen far too many bows that weren't even close, and were causing "unexplainable" tuning problems for the owner. Once we got it on plane and aligned, the bow tuned just like every other one is supposed to...

John


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## Seattlepop

m013690 said:


> *this is the same question I asked 2 days ago and never saw an answer to. All due respect to Seattlepop for the answer you just gave, but I don't think it proves your point. In the photo you posted, it's fairly easy to see that the bottom limb is canted off to the right, with the string passing to the right of centerline.
> *
> But for Kshatriya: I've been thinking about it, and If you assume that the limb tips are in the exact centers of the limbs (might be q good assumption, might not). But if they are, then you are in effect lining up 6 different reference points on one visual line. That's two limb tips, two limb center marks, two limb bolts. Because each of those pairs of points also defines a line segment, any visual point of view that aligns them all simultaneously MUST also be a plane.
> 
> I'm not a mathematician, but from geometry I remember enough to piece that together. The limb bolts and the limb centers alone would define a plane, but it could potentially be anywhere. If you assume the limb tips are centered, then you create a plane with the limb centers and the limb tips, and you're checking to be sure THAT plane includes the line between limbbolts.
> 
> I suspect the guy from Border Bows will dispute the validity of the assumption about centered limb tips -- and for good reason. I'm basing my reasoning, however, on a theoretical construct that I think is probably fairly reasonable for the quality of limbs most likely to be involved in the adjustments we're discussing here -- is anybody going to check their kid's Polaris bow to be sure it's "on-plane?"


I don't think anyone is arguing your six points of reference. That should make a good bow. Not everyone understands that however, and for me, a check for where the string lies is the final test. If it is off, imho, then something being eyeballed is off. Perhaps not everyone has your perfect eyes. And, as my photo shows, if you are using just clips, limb bolts and grip/pivot point for a test, then you could very well be missing something important. 

Regarding the photo, you are 100% wrong. If you are looking at the string passing to the right of the stabilizer in the photo and concluding the string is to the right of center line, you need to think it through a little more. I can tell you that the limbs were purposely canted to the left, not the right, as per POV the photo. If you are familiar with the Hoyt washer system you know that to cant the limbs to the right would require removing washers and trust me, I am much too lazy to do that if I don't have to. However, by simply loosening the dowel bolt the limbs can be pushed to the left, then just re-tightened later. This is what I did for these examples. I really think if you stare at that photo long enough you will have your epiphany. In all due respect.


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## Huntmaster

See John, this is why I don't like posting on here anymore for technical responses. I found the same thing to be a problem as you, but people can't take the vast knowledge that has been accumulated and use it to their advantage, but try to call it into question.

m013690, if you have a twisted riser, the first thing you need to do is find a new riser. It's an invalid arguement trying to line up a riser that is twisted......it can't be done in order to salvage a riser back to good. It might work for a beginner, but no further. Test for that like Border showed, then align like John shows.


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## m013690

Huntmaster said:


> See John, this is why I don't like posting on here anymore for technical responses. I found the same thing to be a problem as you, but people can't take the vast knowledge that has been accumulated and use it to their advantage, but try to call it into question.[\QUOTE]
> 
> On the other hand, it's fortunate for all of us that Galilleo, Newton and Einstein decided not to just accept the accumulated wisdom, but wanted to UNDERSTAND by questioning. It's how knowledge gets advanced, and the more people there are that understand how things work, the greater the prospects for future innovation.


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## Huntmaster

m013690 said:


> On the other hand, it's fortunate for all of us that Galilleo, Newton and Einstein decided not to just accept the accumulated wisdom, but wanted to UNDERSTAND by questioning. It's how knowledge gets advanced, and the more people there are that understand how things work, the greater the prospects for future innovation.


And here it goes again. You're on your own John. One more down.


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## limbwalker

Scott, I must admit that it's a bit frustrating. But I try to remember that there are many times more folks who have probably already gone out and "fixed" their bow that they have been shooting out of plane for a while now, and are happy to get this information.

Besides, I get a little frustrated when I know how much world class archery knowlege there is out there in the minds of many top shooters, and they choose to keep it all to themselves. I wonder what they're afraid of sometimes, or if they just don't want to be helpful. I enjoy being helpful. It's why I coach. I don't count helping here any different than if I had a student in front of me. 

Hmm. Did "m" just compare himself to Galileo, Newton and Einstein?

John


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## WMalinak

I normally don't comment...hard enough just to keep up with the knowledge in this forum (rather than me generate noise).
By all measurements, the family bows are all _on plane.

_Thanks for trying John...I've socked the info away in my ever growing "do/redo list" (you seem to be referenced on a lot of them).
So, Darn, this thread was not the silver bullet.
Looks like I'll have to stick with planA -- to keep practicing.

==>BillM


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## m013690

Huntmaster said:


> And here it goes again. You're on your own John. One more down.


I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not understanding your point, and if I'm misconstruing it, please correct me. It sounds as though you're suggesting that of us who are not experts should never dare to question those who are. I genuinely am asking these questions to understand the processes and theory behind them, not to shoot them down. But it really sounds as though you're suggesting that I have no place to even do that.

If I'm misinterpreting your slightly veiled remarks, please tell me. If not, then I fail to see how the sport or the community of archers can hope to thrive beyond the participatory tenure of the current experts, because the knowledge will simply die out and be lost if it's not shared.


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## m013690

limbwalker said:


> Scott, I must admit that it's a bit frustrating. But I try to remember that there are many times more folks who have probably already gone out and "fixed" their bow that they have been shooting out of plane for a while now, and are happy to get this information.
> 
> Besides, I get a little frustrated when I know how much world class archery knowlege there is out there in the minds of many top shooters, and they choose to keep it all to themselves. I wonder what they're afraid of sometimes, or if they just don't want to be helpful. I enjoy being helpful. It's why I coach. I don't count helping here any different than if I had a student in front of me.
> 
> Hmm. Did "m" just compare himself to Galileo, Newton and Einstein?
> 
> John


Not at all. More like their students. The students who asked questions to learn the science so that the knowledge didn't die when those great mended, and so that they could in turn teach it to their own students to allow the knowledge to spread. I'm asking the questions precisely for the reasons you just said you share it -- to keep the knowledge from being bottled up in the minds of a few. I asked s few probing questions because while you did a really great job of explaining why and how to do it, I thought there was a little room to elaborate on the 'why' of your chosen methodology, and I believed that understanding that might shed even more light on the subject as s whole.


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## tkaap

WMalinak said:


> So, Darn, this thread was not the silver bullet.
> Looks like I'll have to stick with planA -- to keep practicing.


I keep having high hopes for "Plan S" -- getting the special shoes.

-T


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## limbwalker

"M" you're wearing me down... And that ain't easy to do!


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## Spots_N_Dots

Teddy, please consider your coaching certificate revoked


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## m013690

limbwalker said:


> "M" you're wearing me down... And that ain't easy to do!


I apologize then. Truly. But at the same time, I must say that I genuinely, sincerely, fail to see how. You began a technical thread, which I thought was very insightful, useful and informative. I simply replied with a technical question to try and understand better. That question by the way, was echoed by at least two other readers of your post who also wondered if the same alternative approach might work. If three people posted, several others probably wondered the same thing but didn't post -- which means it was probably a pertinent question. It wasn't rude, condescending or critical -- merely inquisitive. And that's more than I can say for the responses.

However, as I can fairly gauge the responses, I see no point in belaboring it either, so I will stop wearing you down.


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## whiz-Oz

limbwalker said:


> Matt, you're welcome. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
> 
> This has always been one of my little "nuggets" that I enjoyed showing my students and friends, while pointing out to them that most of their competitors were shooting bows that were off plane and didn't even know it...
> 
> An "ace" up the sleeve as it were. But it's high time that everyone knows this stuff because life is just too short to shoot a poorly tuned bow...
> 
> John.


Yep. Great stuff and glad that you bought it up again. I have a sneaking suspicion that this setup is covered in "The art of Repetition" by Simon Needham, but it's definitely covered in his "Art of Archery" DVD.


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## whiz-Oz

Yep. Page 44 of his book. I think it's an under appreciated part of setting things up.


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## straat

Sometimes all looks ok but then you pull the string back out of the string groove and suddenly the tip moves to the side...


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## zal

It's a good practice to look for bow alignment all the way through the max draw, like Straat says.

Even some limbs that look like aligned in brace are wonky as hell in full draw, and those should be thrown straight into the bin. They are devilish ones to return as manufacturers don't easily believe that they are off alignment. Beiter has a good tool for it.


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## Borderbows

straat said:


> Sometimes all looks ok but then you pull the string back out of the string groove and suddenly the tip moves to the side...


this is my very point. If you align your bow with this techneque alone, then you could twist your limbs, and if you use the Tips over the limb bolt as per the manual as your only techneque, as John points out, you end up with a bow that torques in the hand.


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## TwilightSea

Isn't the brain really good at measuring things centered anyways?


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## ThomVis

limbwalker said:


> All reasons why I appreciate what PSE did with their X-appeal. You don't even need a bowsquare for their handle. Just lay an arrow in the groove and look!


And thinking more along those lines I came up with this: Put an arrow on the rest, adjust button to set arrow centershot, put another arrow on the inside of the window and check if both arrows run parallel, looking from behind the string.
This would show if the riser was "on plane" (giving the sight windows is flat and straight) or not, wouldn't it?


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## massman

I've read and reread this thread a number of times... So

Assuming that the limbs are not twisted (vertically )when placed in the riser. If I get the limbs aligned so that the string if ligned up with the string groove and in the same plain at the base of the limb (where it exits the rise) the the limbs are on straight and the string is straight (or on plain) with the limbs.

Next then what I think we are attempting to do is assure that the string is in the center of the riser as measured side to side.
If yes, then this for me is trying to make sure that the center of pressure at the grip is in plain with the string. If yes, I'd assume that the best way to do this is by being able to move the grip side to side. If all of this is correct then you set the centershot or offset and the bow would be alligned. Yes?? NO??

If yes and you cannot move the grip side to side then I'd assume the best compromise is to misallign the limb to string allignment to get the string on plain with the pressure point of the grip.

My best,

Tom


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## >--gt-->

I personally loved it when my competition competitors were consumed with this sort of thing. Of course the best ones never were.


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## Warbow

Borderbows said:


> My question is that some risers have the pockets rotationally out. So like an Aircraft you have Yaw Pitch and roll. Yaw is the dovetail left/right movement, Pitch is the limb bolt movement, and roll is something you cant adjust.
> Inno CXT Shims are suppose to address this.










http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidcont.htm

From the terms, with the bow in your hand facing a target, it seems:

Limb bolt: Pitch
Lateral adjustment (with limb bolt as fulcrum): Roll

Yaw: NA.

I guess you'd have to shim the limb or the pocket.


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## Greysides

>--gt--> said:


> I personally loved it when my competition competitors were consumed with this sort of thing. Of course the best ones never were.



Must be pertinent to you now though.


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## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> I personally loved it when my competition competitors were consumed with this sort of thing. Of course the best ones never were.


George, you used to shoot?


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## limbwalker

Greysides said:


> Must be pertinent to you now though.


He just likes being helpful.


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## limbwalker

The real irony in George's post is that I learned this alignment technique first from a Hoyt instruction manual for the Avalon Plus riser. Most likely a manual that none other than gt himself either wrote or reviewed. 

Not sure if instruction manuals these days include this information, but if they do I haven't seen it. That manual for the Avalon plus was excellent.


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## Viper1

John -

I've read this over a few times and here's the part I'm not getting. 

If the string bisects both limbs, limb bolt openings and appears to be parallel with the flat of the sight window at rest everything has to be "in plane". Yes, I'm talking "eye ball" here.

If, when the limbs are drawn, the string is no longer in plane, then there's a problem with the limbs and that usually isn't adjusted by the laterals. Either the limbs may need to be straightened, or replaced. 

The real question is how much out of plane is required before it affects shot placement due to torque or whatever? While that might be dependent on the level of the shooter, if your measuring instruments are precise enough, seriously doubt any rig will be perfectly in plane, or stay that way for very long. 

Still, we might be doing the same thing, I'm just relying on the Mark 1 eye ball instead of a ruler. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker

Tony, you are correct. If the limbs are both in alignment with one another, and that alignment registers with the riser itself, then you're good to go.

Eyeballing, I've found, is always deceiving. It only takes a second to check with a bow square if you have a good flat surface(s) on your riser. Even easier if you have a flat surface on either side of your riser.

I'm not sure why someone would take the time to line up both limbs with one another, then not worry about whether the limbs are aligned with the riser. It would be like airing up a tire halfway and calling it "good enough."



> The real question is how much out of plane is required before it affects shot placement due to torque or whatever?


Isn't that true with any equipment selection or adjustment? 

If we have control over the setup - especially when it's this cheap and simple to do - why wouldn't we set it up as precisely as we can?

Depending on how far out of plane a bow is, the difference can be subtle to very significant. Both on scores and in the feeling and sound of the shot. I can tell you that I've performed a complete bow alignment on several VERY GOOD archer's bows, and they immediately could tell the difference, and their bows immediately became much easier to tune. In fact, the tuning issues that many archers face can be directly attributed to their bow's alignment being off, and no matter how much fiddling they do, they won't ever get a good, consistent, forgiving tune.

Also, the reason "top archers" don't worry about this stuff is because they routinely do this as part of their adjustments when they set up a new bow, so they don't ever have to worry about it again. "top archers" make a tremendous number of adjustments to customize the bow/arrows to their needs before they ever see competiton. They also fine tune and test their equipment in between competitions. What seperates "top archers" from the rest is that once the competition starts, they have the ability to shut down the analytical process and strictly focus on the performance. George is correct in that if anyone is still thinking about this stuff in the middle of a competition, there is a good chance they won't be as competitive as they could be.

John


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## Viper1

John -

Think we're more on the same page than not, as usual. 

The only issue with the precision part, is that with dowel / dovetail type risers, your adjustment is somewhat limited. That's why I brought up the matter of degrees. That's one of the things that's cool about the Horizon riser, the screw adjustments can be finer than the washers. Funny, I have a few old PSE risers that worked the same way!

Thanks,

Viper1 out.


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## lksseven

Now I do the 'full monty' out of habit, but that habit is a direct result of Limbwalker starting this thread

When this thread started, what was helpful to me was just having the goal spelled out (string bisects _both_ limbs and at the same time bisects _both_ limb bolts). As a relative (still) rookie, I was a little too one-dimensional in my thinking - I'd check the upper string and upper limb bolt, or I'd check the string running through both limb bolts, but I don't think I had been checking the alignment from (literally) the top tip of the bow to the bottom tip of the bow. 

Of course, once I 'heard the concept spoken outloud' it was as obvious as the nose on your face. Duh! So I checked from tip to tip, and sure enough I needed to move two washers in order to get 'on plane'. And so, easier-to-tune/quieter bow.


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## dchan

jhinaz said:


> My head hurts!
> If I was a person considering buying a bow for the first time and I read all this technocrap I would take up a different sport/hobby. It's shouldn't be that difficult.....adjust what you can and just shoot the bow. - John





limbwalker said:


> John, it's not that difficult. Just follow the directions in my initial post.
> 
> If a person can't do that, then IMO they simply won't reach their potential in this sport. A lot is made of technique, as it should be, but perfect technique with imperfectly prepared equipment only leads to much frustration. I know a few "level 4" coaches that haven't figured this out yet unfortunately.
> 
> John


These 2 John's are saying the same thing.. Adjust what you can, (again it is a fairly simple procedure) and go shoot.

I have to agree with Limbwalker about the lack of knowledge for a lot of coaches. Unfortunately the equipment side of archery is not really covered much in the coaching courses, (and it probably should be). I know of several coaches that charge quite a bit of money for "tuning services" but don't really understand the the physics of archery or how to tune a bow very well. Technique should continue to be the primary focus for most beginners and intermediate students. Learning about how to tune and adjust their bows should be part of the learning process. 

Then we come down to "when" in the journey does it begin to really make a difference? It happens at different times for different students but if they are not shooting 230's out of 300 at 18M with matched length/weight/spine/built arrows, it's not going to "really" make that big of a difference. If the bow is set up as best as it can be (you checked or have had it checked) and the arrows are straight and matched, just go shoot.

Sometimes *I* make the comment about how little it the tune and how much is the archer, but you have to think about my demographic for students. I wish I had a couple of athletes that were shooting in the 900 range where it would really help. Most are struggling to get their 3rd or 4th achievement pins (indoor or out). 

Also I shoot a very out of tune lightweight bow, Partly to drive home the point of "archer, not equipment" but also to train me better. An unforgiving bow gives you instant feedback (and frustration as mentioned by John (LW)).


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## agillator

Part of having a good mental game (in anything!) is reducing uncertainty before you step up to the line, nailing down all those loose ends that would otherwise allow one to say "maybe it was that" rather than "obviously it was me". Knowing that your bow is properly set up goes a long way toward accomplishing that goal, and most of us will only know that for sure when we can do it ourselves. 

Knowing how to set up and tune your bow properly takes practice. It would be as much of a mistake to wait until just before your first competition to start learning to tune as to spend too much time tuning and not enough time shooting. Unless you're young enough so that it hasn't even occurred to you that equipment might be part of the problem why not start learning now and get the uncertainty behind you a.s.a.p.. Lower the mental noise. Practice better. Shoot better.


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## limbwalker

> Part of having a good mental game (in anything!) is reducing uncertainty before you step up to the line, nailing down all those loose ends that would otherwise allow one to say "maybe it was that" rather than "obviously it was me". Knowing that your bow is properly set up goes a long way toward accomplishing that goal, and most of us will only know that for sure when we can do it ourselves.


I could not agree more. This is the very reason many top archers CAN have such a calm mind when they are shooting - because they KNOW they have taken care of every detail before the first whistle blows. 

Heck, some guys even go so far as to "pre-stretch" their bowstrings at 700 lbs. 

It's for each of us to decide how prepared we must be to reach our comfort level.

To me, proper bow alignment is pretty rudimentary when it comes to all the details one could obsess over in target archery. I know folks who will weigh out their target points to 0.5 grains (or less) accuracy. That's all fine and good if it helps them achieve a calm mind on the line. Each of us has a different tolerance for this sort of thing. I just hope that same guy who is weighing out their points or is pre-stretching their bowstring has first taken care of the potentially bigger issue of bow alignment - otherwise their time is not so well prioritized.

In science, we talk about limiting factors. I'm sure engineering teaches the same concept, but essentially the idea is that so long as you don't address or increase a limiting factor, you will never make any gains, no matter how advanced the other factors are. It was taught to us with the concept of holes in a wooden barrel. Stood on end, the water in the barrel can only rise to the level of the lowest hole, and when you plug that hole, it can only rise to the height of the next hole. 

So that's what I try to do when I coach. I plug the lowest hole, and then move on. And in the area of equipment setup, achieving proper alingment is a pretty low hole in my book.

John


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## limbwalker

> The only issue with the precision part, is that with dowel / dovetail type risers, your adjustment is somewhat limited. That's why I brought up the matter of degrees. That's one of the things that's cool about the Horizon riser, the screw adjustments can be finer than the washers. Funny, I have a few old PSE risers that worked the same way!


Yes, this is a bit of a downside to the brass shim/dowel alignment system that Hoyt has used for 12+ years now. It can only be so fine. My Axis riser that I used in 2004 was never "perfectly" in line, and I knew that. The top limb could either be off to the right by a 1/8" or to the left by 1/8" with the limbs I had on it. I didn't let it bother me even though I was aware of it, and I just went and shot what I had. Eventually, myself and many other folks who shot Hoyt risers filed down the brass shims to achieve a finer alignment capability. Was it necessary? Probably not, but since it wasn't hard to do, I did it anyway. 

You won't hear me criticize that alignment system though, since it's pretty bulletproof and there is something to be said for making it that much of a challenge to change the limb alignment 

But yes, scews with a fine pitch do give you an infinite adjustment. Problem with them is, will they stay put?


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## massman

The more I think about the "on plain" the more I cannot get my head around it.

Aligning the string with the limbs to put the limbs & string "on plain" and then to "de-tune" this set-up in order to get the string to be in plane with the center of the riser just seems backwards. If in the set-up the string is not running down the center of the riser. Does this not just mean that the positioning of the bow hand on the grip needs to not be in the center of the riser? Are we not talking about torquing the riser at draw?

Think about it...

If you were to develop a mechanical set-up where-by you apply pressure on the grip at the center of the riser...
Draw the bow to a pre-determined draw-length...
And the riser/limbs torque to either side...
Does this not indicate that in order to keep the riser from torquing, you would need to apply pressure at a different spot on the grip?

Is this not what is being perscribed by de-tuning the on plain limb to string set-up so that the string passes through the center of the riser?

Would it not be more efficient for the limbs/string to stay on plain and "move" the center of pressure on the grip.

My best,

Tom


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## kshet26

You shouldn't be de-tuning the limbs. You need to get the string running down the middle of the two limbs, then with that set (limbs in alignment with the string), you then need to get the string in alignment with the riser. To do this you'd move both limbs left or right by the same amount. This keeps their alignment the same, you're essentially just moving the riser to line up with the already aligned limbs.

I think its a hard concept especially because the limbs pivot around the limb bolts, so in theory if the riser is perfect, there should only be one location where the limbs align. This would be down the center of the riser.


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## limbwalker

Tom, think of the riser and two limbs as a three piece ruler. You can have the two ends canted equally to one side, and they are then in line with one another, but not the center piece. The easiest way to get total alignment is to line up both end pieces (limbs) with one another first (after which most folks usually stop), THEN adjust them both equally to bring them in line with the center piece (riser).

I'm sure if I could show you this in person, a bright bulb would go off over your head


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## massman

Kshet26

I do not know of any current riser design that would afford you the adjustment you're describing.

Assuming that the limb bolts are drilled on the centerline of the riser. There is only one palcement of the dovetail that will align and given set of limbs. We're talking having the string run straight from one tip through the center of the at limb, through the center of the other limb to the other limbs tip. Once you have this, in order to move this alignent side to side to get this centered on the riser would require that the limb bolts would also need to move.

Tom


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## kshet26

Hmm. That's actually a really good point.The more I think about it, for it to work properly the limb bolt would also have to move. With limbs that pivot around the limb bolt, if you align the limbs the should already be in alignment with the riser. If they don't you're only going to get 1 point where the string is in the middle of the riser as it diagonally crosses it.


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## limbwalker

Tom, either the limb bolt or the dovetails must move. 

On the By Bernardini and PSE risers, the limb bolts DO move. They both have excellent alignment systems. 

John


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## kshet26

So with bows that don't have limb bolts that move (like my Hoyt Horizon), you either have straight limbs and a straight riser and have the string run down the middle of all of them. If you don't have a straight riser or limbs, the only adjustment you can make is to align the limbs at the expense of being in plain with the riser.


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## kshet26

Aren't all Hoyt risers like this (Formula variations, Horizon, GMX)? I don't think the limb bolts move on any of them. So you just have to hope that everything is straight?


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## KenYeoh

kshet26 said:


> Aren't all Hoyt risers like this (Formula variations, Horizon, GMX)? I don't think the limb bolts move on any of them. So you just have to hope that everything is straight?


My old Matrix used washers to move the horizontal position, I think.
Fairly certain the RX, HPX both are capable of moving the lateral position as well. Also the GMX uses the same washer system as the Matrix.

Now that I think of it though, you're really only moving the limb pocket, and not the bolt....


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## chrstphr

Tom, Think of the riser as a pivot point that you hold and is stationary. The limbs and string are aligned to themselves and function as one component that is attached to the riser. Then limb/string combo is pivoted or rotated to shoot the arrow off the rest straight ahead by moving the limb position left and right in the pocket, that can make the arrow be shot more into the riser or away from the riser. Best is a shot that is straight through. The string can be centered on the limbs, but if the limbs are not positioned on the riser correctly, the string will shoot the arrow off axis of the riser. 

So riser is stationary and limb/string is one component that is aligned to itself. Both are then aligned to shoot the arrow off the riser straight as possible. 
That is what they are calling "on plane". 


Chris


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## kshet26

So in order to obtain "on-plane" limbs and riser, you need an adjustment system that moves *BOTH* the dovetail and the bolt. Otherwise you're just aligning the limbs only (and not the riser).


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## Seattlepop

*sigh*

This whole thread was about the fact that you can have a bow, straight components all, set up so that it is *apparently* in line, but not *actually* in line. It is a test of your perspective, how you *look* at the bow's alignment, not a test of your bow's alignment features, if any. A straight riser without lateral adjustments and a pair of straight limbs will be in line and on plane. Pretty simple.

However, because most bows have a lateral adjustment system, and it is just possible it may not have been set correctly at the factory, or like me, you just like to fiddle, you should check alignment more than just one way. This is because just the way you stand behind the bow and eyeball the string, your perspective, may not tell the whole story. The Beiter clips et al may be in line, and thus the bow is *apparently* correctly aligned, additional tests may show it is not *actually* in line totally, ie. on plane. 

Everyone who says that if the limbs, clips, bolts, riser handle, etc are *actually* in line, then the bow should be on plane is correct. However, standing in one spot and eyeballing your bow's string can be misleading. That's all.


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## massman

John,

I understand your example of a rule. Yes, the two limb tips can be alinged "vertically" in your example and the riser is to either side. However the example was having not only the tips aligned along this vertical line, but also the butt ends of the limbs also.

From my understanding of setting up a bow, the end result of aligning the limbs it to have 6 points along the limbs aligned. The tip, the string groove and the center (measured where the limb exits the riser) all aligned on both limbs. Again there is only one set-up that will yield this.

Please look back at my previous reply. I think what we are talking about after that alignment is **** if thereafter where you place your hand on the grip (side to side) in relationship to the center of the riser. You will torque the riser out of parallel to the string plain if your pressure point on the grip is not along the same line "vertically" as the string. 

If for any given archer this torquing it removed by adjusting the string plain to one side or the other, is an example of that archer not having the pressure point on the grib correctly aligned with the string.

If you align the limbs as I've described... place the bow in a craddle that sits on the riser only... place a line level on either limb and adjust the bow side to side until the level read level... The hang something that will act as a plumb weight, you can mark the EXACT place where you need to apply pressure on the grip. Apply presssure there when the bow is drawn and the bow will not torque.

I'm also not sure if we're getting to critical here.

I doubt that the risers we're shooting are machined to the tolerances that would be needed to attain this percision. With the usually tolerance stack-up's that can develop we'r probably talking .0001 +-1 machining tolerances.

Tom


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## Matt_Potter

John 

I figure on my Luxor that if both limbs line up and the string lines up with the barebow weight set screws then I'm in plane. If you have another way on this curvy riser I'm all ears

Matt


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## chrstphr

Tom, the plane of the limbs/string in regards to the riser has nothing to do with the torque of the hand on the grip. 



Chris


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## limbwalker

I'm starting to recall what a former boss once told me. 

"No good deed goes unpunished..." 

Well, I tried.


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## Chris RL

John, good morning!
Your efforts much appreciated.
How about if you went the other way, started with a perfectly straight setup, and then changed the washers on each side over equally, top and bottom?
Would that result in the condition you're describing?


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## limbwalker

Exactly.


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## massman

Chrstphr,

I'm not talking about the archer torquing the bow during the shot. Rather, dependent on where you put pressure (side to side) on the grip, the riser can torque to one side or the other at full draw.

what I think John is getting at is to put the limbs & string on the same plain. Then he's adjusting this to make sure when you put pressure on the center of the riser (side to side) this pressure is aligned with the string.

My only contention was that the string/limbs themselves can only be on plain at one set-up. Rather than move this, I think it's better to determine where the center of pressure needs to be applied at the grip.

I do notthink that the lateral movement of the limb pocket was ever thought to be used to get the string running down the center of the riser. Rather I assume it was to compensate for a limbs that were not true. If it had been meant to align the riser, then the limb bolt would also need to move laterally.

Tom

Tom


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## chrstphr

Hi Tom, position of pressure point on the grip on the riser has nothing to do with the riser and limbs/string being on plane. If a bow is not on plane, it doesnt matter where you grip the riser, at full draw or not, the bow will shoot the arrow off axis out of the riser. 

I am afraid you are missing it. 

On the reverse, if your limbs are not aligned to the string and riser, would you be able to correct this by changing where you grip the riser at full draw to make the bow shoot the arrow straight?

the answer would be no. You would have to align the string to the limbs. The riser is a static, stationary pivot point. 

And so the answer here is still, you have to align the string/limbs to the riser. This puts all on plane and gets the bow to shoot the arrow on the correct axis. grip position can not change the plane. 

I agree with John, that a ten minute demonstration in person would explain this topic for you much better than trying to describe it in the forum.

Chris


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## Seattlepop

massman said:


> Chrstphr,
> 
> I'm not talking about the archer torquing the bow during the shot. Rather, dependent on where you put pressure (side to side) on the grip, the riser can torque to one side or the other at full draw.
> 
> what I think John is getting at is to put the limbs & string on the same plain. Then he's adjusting this to make sure when you put pressure on the center of the riser (side to side) this pressure is aligned with the string.
> 
> My only contention was that the string/limbs themselves can only be on plain at one set-up. Rather than move this, I think it's better to determine where the center of pressure needs to be applied at the grip.
> 
> I do notthink that the lateral movement of the limb pocket was ever thought to be used to get the string running down the center of the riser. Rather I assume it was to compensate for a limbs that were not true. If it had been meant to align the riser, then the limb bolt would also need to move laterally.
> 
> Tom
> 
> Tom


You are so over-thinking this. Let me ask you a question: If you are setting up a new kit, say, and you have the limbs and string set so they appear to be in line with each other. But, when you put the stabilizer on it is pointing off to one side. What do you do?


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## KenYeoh

Well, you check if your stab is straight. Next you check if the bushing is straight!


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## limbwalker

And if it is, and the stabilizer is STILL off to one side, then what do you do? 

And further, how do you know that the bushing or stabilizer is straight? Most are not!

John


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## gma

Once again, thanks John!

When I first got my bow (Horizon + Kaya 30# limbs), the shop set the alignment for me. It shot very consistently. I later moved up to 38# RCX and about 1 out of 6 arrows was a weird flyer. I tweaked a few things (clearance being a biggie) and that helped, but still had more fliers than with the Kaya limbs (I'm guessing the RCX limbs are not as forgiving generally).

After reading this thread, I checked and found that I was indeed out of plane by 1/8th of an inch. I corrected that, and my fliers have significantly fallen - and to punctuate the point, the first two full indoor FITA rounds I shot after this adjustment were new personal bests!

I had to think about this a bit to understand how a string could appear straight, yet not be "on-plane." I put together a simple pic that I think illustrates it. The middle picture can APPEAR straight when aligning string to bolts by very slightly twisting the bow.


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## Scott.Barrett

chrstphr said:


> Hi Tom, position of pressure point on the grip on the riser has nothing to do with the riser and limbs/string being on plane. If a bow is not on plane, it doesnt matter where you grip the riser, at full draw or not, the bow will shoot the arrow off axis out of the riser.
> 
> I am afraid you are missing it.
> 
> On the reverse, if your limbs are not aligned to the string and riser, would you be able to correct this by changing where you grip the riser at full draw to make the bow shoot the arrow straight?
> 
> the answer would be no. You would have to align the string to the limbs. The riser is a static, stationary pivot point.
> 
> And so the answer here is still, you have to align the string/limbs to the riser. This puts all on plane and gets the bow to shoot the arrow on the correct axis. grip position can not change the plane.
> 
> I agree with John, that a ten minute demonstration in person would explain this topic for you much better than trying to describe it in the forum.
> 
> Chris


Someone please make a youtube video of how to do this....


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## gma

Scott.Barrett said:


> Someone please make a youtube video of how to do this....


I'll volunteer for that job, unless someone beats me to it before this weekend.


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## lksseven

yes, but having gotten your riser/limbs/string perfectly on plane isn't the end of the exercise. One still has to then make sure that one's hand/bowgrip pressure/position is perfectly aligned with the riser/limb/string plane so that the bow moves straight forward and not skewed by an misaligned hand/grip angle to the bow. Right? For me, that's the most slippery ghost of all.


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## Bob Furman

I tried getting my Recurve on the Plane, but TSA told me that was not allowed. Now what? hehehheh


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## limbwalker

Larry, you and your grip obsession... ha, ha, ha.


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## kshet26

I've been thinking about this and this is my conclusion:

Adjustment systems that only allow you to move the dovetail are only able to correct for slightly warped limbs, non-centered detent limb bolts or non-centered dovetail receivers.

It will not allow you to correct for misaligned limb bolts.

Basically this means that if you can achieve aligned limbs, you're bow will either be in-plane with the riser or it won't and there is nothing you can do short of physically modifying the bow or limbs. Sure moving the alignment system of both the top and bottom by the same amount to the left or right will move the string position left or right, but you're then taking the limbs out of alignment (because they pivot around the limb bolts). 

Also you should measure at several spots to check for riser centrality:
- one spot well above the grip
- one spot at the pressure point of the grip
- one spot well below the grip

For example: My Hoyt Horizon has mis-aligned limb bolts. I can get the limbs pretty much aligned, but I'll never be able to get the riser to be in plane with the limbs. Because of this the string runs at a slight diagonal down the riser. There is a point where the string crosses the middle of the riser, but I have no control of where that happens if I want to keep the limbs aligned. The best possible spot for the cross to happen would be at the pressure point of the grip.

This is all due to the fact that the limb bolts don't move laterally as an adjustment option.

This is actually a great test to check for faulty manufactured equipment. If I had known about all of this, I would have exchanged my Horizon.


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## Arsi

If we do this alignment and the stabilizer is to the left or right of the string, will it cause some funky bow roll on release? I had someone assist me with tuning my bow and they lined the string up with the stabilizer so its down the center, but I checked using a flat part of the riser to the string and it isnt on plane according to the measurements I took.


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## limbwalker

Many risers have mis-aligned stabilizer bushings. Also, many stabilizers are not straight - esp. multi-rod stabilizers. So you just have to decide what plane you're going to line the limbs up with. The stabilizer, or the riser. I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference unless the stabilizer is just WAY off, in which case I'd either get a new riser or stabilizer, depending on which one is out of whack.

An easy way to check the straightness of your stabilizer is to lay an arrow against a flat section of your sight window, then look down from above at the arrow and the stabilizer and see if they are parallel. This is a good thing to do every time you set up a bow, as it's good to know if your stabilizer is straight, or pointing to one side. If you know this, you can use it later as a reference when or if you have to realign your limbs on that particular riser. 

John


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## chrstphr

also i have a current brand new blade carbon stabilizer. If i put it on with one blade side up ( marked with an X) , its in line and on plane with the rest of the bow If i put it so the X side is down, the stab is out of alignment. 

just so you know the same stab can be in line or out depending on the way it screws in.

Chris


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## limbwalker

The only way that can be true is if the stabilizer bushing AND the stabilizer are both off an equal amount. Otherwise a 180 degree turn would move it from one side of center to the other.


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## chrstphr

that is the way my Stab is. I discovered by accident. Everything was aligned for a week, then one night suddenly the stab was off. I swapped the blade side and it was back aligned. So now i have it marked to make sure its aligned. I have shown it to several at my range as i had never run into this before.



Chris


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## limbwalker

I understand, but if your stabilizer bushing was straight and your stabilizer was off, then when you turn it 180 degrees it would be off the same amount in the opposite direction. So the only way you can get a properly aligned stabilizer in one position, and then off at 180 degrees (as in your example), is if they are both off. So the two cancel each other out in one position, but double the effect at 180 degrees.

Make sense?


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## chrstphr

yes.


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## limbwalker

I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's way off. I don't think I've had more than one setup out of about 5 in the past several years that was dead-on. But I always check so I know that if the stabilizer is off to one side just a little, whether it's supposed to be that way, or if things moved.

John


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## Arsi

limbwalker said:


> So you just have to decide what plane you're going to line the limbs up with. The stabilizer, or the riser. I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference unless the stabilizer is just WAY off, in which case I'd either get a new riser or stabilizer, depending on which one is out of whack.


How much is way off? The string is directly in line with the stabilizer right now. The way it was before, the string was about a shaft width (ACE shaft  ) to one side of the stabilizer. I think if I adjust it to where it was before, the string will be planed with the riser.


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## limbwalker

It's up to you to decide what "WAY" off is. If you're happy with how your bow shoots, then don't mess with it.


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## Arsi

limbwalker said:


> It's up to you to decide what "WAY" off is. If you're happy with how your bow shoots, then don't mess with it.


Im ok with this answer


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## gma

Hi Guys,

Put together a video showing the techniques John described. Hope it makes things clearer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_qDzNSQYuQ

Gene


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## agillator

gma said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Put together a video showing the techniques John described. Hope it makes things clearer.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_qDzNSQYuQ
> 
> Gene


Worth a thousand words and then some.

Very nice job.


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## limbwalker

Gene did a great job with this video. Hopefully that helps folks get their bows shooting as well as they can.


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## gma

Thanks John and agillator! It was fun. Hope people find it useful.


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## kshet26

I still think there are some fundamental flaws with this method if you only have dovetail adjustment (like on the horizon in the video) and if you're only measuring from one spot on the riser.


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## limbwalker

Then what do you suggest?


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## kshet26

As evident by the 5 pages of posts in this thread, this is a mutlifaceted and complex issue. I've been working on a writeup on this, so let me put all my thoughts together and I'll post it.


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## Scott.Barrett

gma said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Put together a video showing the techniques John described. Hope it makes things clearer.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_qDzNSQYuQ
> 
> Gene


Thanks Gene!!!! Great video and explanation!!!!


----------



## Matt_Potter

gma said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Put together a video showing the techniques John described. Hope it makes things clearer.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_qDzNSQYuQ
> 
> Gene


Great job on the vid - thanks for taking the time and John thanks for taking the time on the original post.

Matt


----------



## limbwalker

kshet26 said:


> As evident by the 5 pages of posts in this thread, this is a mutlifaceted and complex issue. I've been working on a writeup on this, so let me put all my thoughts together and I'll post it.


Well then, please do. 

But the technique that was shown in my pictures, and Gene's excellent tutorial, are solutions that are available to every archer who has a riser with a limb alignment system. If there are other issues that exist, there really aren't practical solutions to them, so they really aren't worth worrying about IMO. We can only control what we can control.

John


----------



## ryan b.

would this work: align limbs and then keep them aligned as you get as close to lined up on-plane with your riser as you can.

as an example imagine you moved your top limb tip all the way to the left as far as it would go and then you moved your bottom limb to the right as far as it would go.

your string would be crossing the riser at an angle but the limbs themselves would still be aligned to each other, tracking the center of the limbs (using a beiter limb gauge for example).

now you start moving the top limb to the right while simultaneously moving the bottom limb to the left the same amount. this keeps the limbs aligned to each other (the string tracking down the middle of the limbs) as you seek to get closer to on-plane with your riser.

at some point, if youre riserlimb bolts are straight in-line then the string will end up in the middle of the riser/bolts.

if your limbs and riser were straight to begin with this will work.

if not you either have to have the string tracking down the center of the limbs and the string off center of the bolts/riser center or you can have the string tracking the riser but the limbs themselves arent aligned to each other.

in the above video example the string isnt going to line up down the center of the limbs any more right?


so whats better, having a string aligned to the center of the limbs (ala a bunch of beiter limb gauges that show your string is tracking true) but not on plane
or is the better solution to have the string centered on the riser but the string not tracking the true center of the limbs?


if your bow is actually twisted then i dont think you can get on plane without shims, right? ..actually tilting the limb from side to side. this discussion does not touch on actual twist in the riser as i think that can only be resolved with shims. some bows probably have all 3 of these things to deal with.


----------



## Greysides

Good video. Thanks for taking the time to make it.


----------



## massman

Perhaps a different approach is needed...

OK Yes that was a very will presented and definitive video. TY. really TY. Very well done and explains exactly what is happening.

Why is it important to move the string over the 1/16"? What is changing before, during and after the shot with the string on plain with the center of the riser. Apposed to moving on a parallel plain to the center of the riser?

I'd assume that if I did not move the string over, I'd adjust the plunger out appropriately. NO?

My best,

Tom

As a side discussion, I've been contemplating the installation of the plunger. Would it be of benefit if the plunger itself was screwed into a ball mount? That way its' travel could be adjusted in any combination of up/down & side to side movements.


----------



## Greysides

massman said:


> Why is it important to move the string over the 1/16"? What is changing before, during and after the shot with the string on plain with the center of the riser. As opposed to moving on a parallel plain to the center of the riser?


Changing from the middle picture to the picture on the right.










The string was aligned parallel to the limb bolts in the video. It's position bisecting the limbs while 'on plane' was not considered.


----------



## gma

ryan b. said:


> in the above video example the string isnt going to line up down the center of the limbs any more right?


Yes, it will, with some assumptions:

1. The riser is straight.
2. The limbs are straight
3. The string meets the center of the limb at the tips.

At the end of the "standard" alignment procedure, where the string is visually lined up with the limb bolts, you know a line running through the TIPS of the limbs (ie, the string) is parallel to the center plane. But because of parallax (shown in the video), that doesn't ensure the center line of the limbs are straight in line with the riser - they could be equally off to one side. Centering the string then brings the limbs in line with the riser.

But you are correct, none of this addresses making corrections for twisted risers or the riser or limbs not being straight. There is a lot of information I left out of the video mostly because of time, and to keep the video focused (try to sit through one of my 12 minute light bulb reviews and you'll appreciate keeping things brief! :tongue: ). Another video to check for straight components might be in order.

Thanks again for all the feedback and encouragement guys!


----------



## gma

massman said:


> Why is it important to move the string over the 1/16"? ...
> 
> I'd assume that if I did not move the string over, I'd adjust the plunger out appropriately. NO?


As john initially stated, having everything lined up makes the bow shoot much better - more consistent, easier to tune, more forgiving. I've experienced this myself - my PB on an indoor FITA rounds jumped 5 points the first round after this adjustment, and another 7 points on the second. Fliers were greatly reduced.
Exactly why? You're talking serious arrow dynamics now - way beyond my skill level - perhaps a discussion for another thread.


Your point about the plunger position is an excellent one, and one that I wished I had mentioned in the video. If you do actually make an adjustment, you will need to check your center-shot.


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## massman

Greysides.

None of your illistrations are what was described in the video. The closest one but still different was the far right one. 

In the video the string and the center of the limbs were brought on plain with each other. Then this alignent was skewed to one side to get the string to be on plain with the center of the riser. Once adjusted the "On plain of the (string/center of the limbs) was changed/lost.

So I ask again. If the arrow travels on a parallel plain to the center of the riser, what is happening that is bad for the shot?

My Best

Tom


----------



## agillator

gma said:


> ...Your point about the plunger position is an excellent one, and one that I wished I had mentioned in the video. If you do actually make an adjustment, you will need to check your center-shot.


Not necessary. Anyone who knows about tuning will know that any change in the geometry or weight distribution of the rig requires retuning.


----------



## Greysides

massman said:


> Greysides.
> 
> None of your illistrations are what was described in the video.


Okay, back to school.........


----------



## ryan b.

thanks guys. great video. 
guess im lucky and have straigt riser, limbs and bushings (finally!).


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## chrstphr

massman said:


> So I ask again. If the arrow travels on a parallel plain to the center of the riser, what is happening that is bad for the shot?
> 
> My Best
> 
> Tom


Tom, its not really a plane, its an axis for shooting the arrow past the riser to the target. And if its off, its not parallel, its at an angle to the riser. If centered correctly, you can shoot and the arrow will fly straighter and more forgiving even with a less than stellar release. 

(for a right handed shooter) If the axis/ plane is more to the right of the riser, then you are effectively shooting the string toward your arm guard and slightly shooting the rear of the arrow left while the point is being pushed right. The fletchings must do more to correct the flex now coming out of the bow to keep arrow straight to target. You will lose speed and trajectory and not have the best groupings.

If the axis is more to the left of the riser, you are effectively shooting the arrow into the riser and your string will hit your armguard even with good releases. You may find you have clearance problems with less than stellar releases. You will find people who have this problem will have the string clip the armguard when shooting and thrust it into the wrist, because the release moves the string even more to the left along the arm. Many will diagnose that the arm is being put too far into the string path, but sometimes it is the string path is being put too far into the arm. 

I had this problem for a few years without knowing it as my plane was not right. I had the plane aligned to a stab that was not straight. Once i upgraded my stab and got a straight one, i discovered the plane alignment, corrected it, and i did not hit my armguard with my shots any longer. Adjusting the plunger to correct the plane just makes matters worse and you are now shooting the arrow off the string and plunger where both do not line up to push the arrow forward. All of this is important because the arrow is pushed from the back forward. If the angle is off, then the push is off. 

You will also lose arrow speed and trajectory if this is not correct. All in all, plane is about string path pushing the arrow straight to target past the riser. Any deviation from this path is not efficient, and will give clearance problems, or string to arm problems, and generally all around less than stellar groupings. Once setup correctly, you will have a bow that sings, and will give much better groupings and will be more forgiving. 

I apologize, as i cant figure out how to explain it any better. 

Chris


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## massman

So let me answer my own question as no one else seems to be doing so (As asked).

The video shows that as originally set up, that the straight line (of pressure) from the string to the riser and out the back of the riser towards that target would not traven from the centerline of the riser at the face to the centerline of the riser at the back. In stead it would travel and cone outoof the back of the riser slightly to the sight side of the riser. By adjusting the limbs to the right and moving the string. This line of pressure is now running straight from the string, to the centerline of the face of the riser and straight through the centerline of the back of the riser.

In essence, the limb pochets (most unlikely) or the limbs themselves (very likely) are not sitting in the riser "perpendicular" to what is being called "the center plain of the riser".

I think if you could measure from the string, down to the grib. And mark the grib where this pressure line penertrates the riser. Make that the pressure point of the bow hand and you'll seet the same effect as skewing the limbs to one side.

Tom


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## chrstphr

massman said:


> I think if you could measure from the string, down to the grib. And mark the grip where this pressure line penertrates the riser. Make that the pressure point of the bow hand and you'll seet the same effect as skewing the limbs to one side.
> 
> Tom


I disagree. That will only move the string off plane from both the riser and limbs when at full draw and anchored. Grip/ hand position has nothing to do with string/limb to riser alignment. And where you are off is, doing that is moving the limb tips, not the limb seats. Wrong end of the limb. 


but i am done trying to think of ways to explain this. I admit defeat. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop

I think what Tom is saying is that regardless of how the limbs are aligned, if you locate the grip pressure central to the limbs' line of travel, the arrow will move in the direction its going.


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## chrstphr

then i say to you, if your string is not aligned to your limbs, then just change your hand position to the limbs line of travel to correct that. 



Chris


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## Scott.Barrett

So I just followed all of the instructions in the video on my new HPX....

Top limb was out to the left....moved spacer and made it worse! Moved it the other direction and the tips, center of the limbs, bolt holes and center of grip are all in a straight line.

Had a hard time finding a good flat spot to see if it was in plane. Ended up measuring in two places, flat spot under grip and the flat spot by the alignment screws on the ends of the riser....everything is in line!!!

Thanks for the advice and videos, this worked out quite well!!!!


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## limbwalker

Nice job Scott. Now apparently all you need to worry about is whether your gripping the bow on the same plane...  LOL!

John


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## KenYeoh

I think a lot of the problems people have with this alignment stuff relate to the fact that if their risers are twisted, and/or their limbs are twisted/canted, it is not possible to get BOTH the limb tips to line up with the center of the riser AS WELL as have the string on the same plane as the riser using the conventional limb alignment systems.

What they should be doing, in my opinion, is sanding the limb forks while shimming the other side, AS WELL AS moving the limb alignment system in order to get the limbs lined up AND the string on plane with the riser.


----------



## Scott.Barrett

KenYeoh said:


> I think a lot of the problems people have with this alignment stuff relate to the fact that if their risers are twisted, and/or their limbs are twisted/canted, it is not possible to get BOTH the limb tips to line up with the center of the riser AS WELL as have the string on the same plane as the riser using the conventional limb alignment systems.
> 
> What they should be doing, in my opinion, is sanding the limb forks while shimming the other side, AS WELL AS moving the limb alignment system in order to get the limbs lined up AND the string on plane with the riser.


In that matter, seems like the limb "ears" should be cut with a much wider groove and a set of shims available to go on then ends to let you adjust that end side to side as well....


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## limbwalker

Goodness folks. Let's just start with what the manufacturer gives us already - a limb alignment system. It's my wish that people just simply use this to it's full effect. Anything besides that is not worth worrying over IMO.

John


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## John_K

I've been following this with some interest...

Several years ago a British longbowyer marketed - and sold - English longbows which were "handed"; in other words, the string was offset to one side or the other depending on the handedness of the archer. In other words, the string ran straight relative to the bow, but was offset, much like the second diagram in the image Greysides posted earlier.

He showed this off to another well-known British bowyer, who pointed out that this meant the bow would twist in the hand when drawn. He was ignored.

After a while, he quietly stopped offering this option. A few years later, I heard that he had brought up the subject while giving a talk on longbows and made it into a funny story about how he'd made these bows "as a joke". I'm sure his customers who had bought these bows in good faith at the time thought it was hilarious...


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## Borderbows

KenYeoh said:


> I think a lot of the problems people have with this alignment stuff relate to the fact that if their risers are twisted, and/or their limbs are twisted/canted, it is not possible to get BOTH the limb tips to line up with the center of the riser AS WELL as have the string on the same plane as the riser using the conventional limb alignment systems.
> 
> What they should be doing, in my opinion, is sanding the limb forks while shimming the other side, AS WELL AS moving the limb alignment system in order to get the limbs lined up AND the string on plane with the riser.



you see what i see.
if your limb pads are rotationally out then yaw wont fix a roll issue. 
using yaw will only lead to twisted limbs.

get a straight riser in the first place.
or a straight set of limbs 
Which ever is out.


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## Borderbows

I suppose the ultimate test is to put 2-3 layers of making tape on one side of the limb rocker contact patch. on the same sides both top and bottom pocket.
then look at the string centre on the bow.
the string should not be central in my opinion.
so then move both limb adjusters over a little bit to account for it, and to make sure the string is central, and then look at the limb tip position. and now the limb tips are off. infact the string groove limb face level wont be level with the bow.

now if one pocket is not parrallel to the other then that would be like only having the tape on one pocket and this gives a even more confusing mix of feedback from tests.

The test i love (mostly on bolted bows) is when the limbs are on the bow, and not strung, you can put the bow down on a table, the belly sides of the limbs incontact with the table, and the bow rocks. it coggles from one flat to the other. this shows that the limbs are twisted on the former, or that the riser has a pocket on a different rotation to the other.


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## KenYeoh

Could you not shim the pad as well in this case? Though by this point you may already have franken-pockets!



Borderbows said:


> I suppose the ultimate test is to put 2-3 layers of making tape on one side of the limb rocker contact patch. on the same sides both top and bottom pocket.
> then look at the string centre on the bow.
> the string should not be central in my opinion.
> so then move both limb adjusters over a little bit to account for it, and to make sure the string is central, and then look at the limb tip position. and now the limb tips are off. infact the string groove limb face level wont be level with the bow.
> 
> now if one pocket is not parrallel to the other then that would be like only having the tape on one pocket and this gives a even more confusing mix of feedback from tests.
> 
> The test i love (mostly on bolted bows) is when the limbs are on the bow, and not strung, you can put the bow down on a table, the belly sides of the limbs incontact with the table, and the bow rocks. it coggles from one flat to the other. this shows that the limbs are twisted on the former, or that the riser has a pocket on a different rotation to the other.


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## Bob Furman

Just my two cents, but I just bought some new wood core limbs for my HPX, set it up as I normally do, adjusted center shot, nocking point and verified that I was pulling 44#@28", grabbed my ACE 570's (This setup worked great with my Avalon Plus at the same weight) and started the tuning process. I figured that it would take me about an hour including walk back tuning. All my bare shaft were impacting right in the blue ring at 30 meters.. Also tried my X10 550's, even tried my ACE 520's, still impacting right. (Those are normally something I shoot close to 50#'s) same result. Two days later, I'm still chasing my tail, scratching my head then I recalled this wonderful post and basically I just eye balled it having marked both the top and bottom limb centers. Discovered that my bottom limb was about 1/8" off. Corrected that and low and behold my bare shafts are hitting in the middle again. I just wanted to post this so everyone knows it really can make a real big difference. Next I will actually measure everything.


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## Marshall Law

Really good post. Anyone could follow this 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


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## limbwalker

Bob, glad it helped.

This is why I'm always so leery when folks say "I've tried and tried but I can't get "X" arrows to tune from my bow...!" Just looking at draw weight and length and spine aren't enough.


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## w8lon

Thanks for digging this thread back up Bob. Purchased my new to me Midas a few months ago and performed the eyeball alignment and started shooting. With thirty six inches of snow on the ground yet decided to truly align the recurve today.

The Midas has nothing straight curves and tapers everywhere. With that being said an alternate plan had to be thought out. I was able to clamp four arrow shafts to limb pockets with rubber bands then use vernier calipers to measure limb tips. I was off plus or minus 1/4" at tips with the eyeball method although it looked centered.






Thanks to all who have offered their insight as I now have a bow on plane!


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## w8lon

Yaw and pitch were brought up in the thread as well, so so dug out my tool for checking this as well. I have an incidence gauge for model airplanes that was designed to measure such things, so why not check the limb pocket alignment while on the bow press. They were parallel by the way.


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## Bob Furman

limbwalker said:


> Bob, glad it helped.
> 
> This is why I'm always so leery when folks say "I've tried and tried but I can't get "X" arrows to tune from my bow...!" Just looking at draw weight and length and spine aren't enough.


John,

I was really surprised that something that small had such a great effect on my arrow. So is this alignment normally a limb or riser defect? I ask because I don't recall ever having a tuning issue on my 46# foam core F7 limbs, but I did with these 42# wood core limbs. I'm shooting a spine heavy with HPX 25" Riser, Long 42# wood core limbs. Is that about normal for the HPX?


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## jocala

Wonderful thread and video. Thanks!


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## limbwalker

Bob, I can't say for sure. I've seen $700 risers that were out of alignment with stabilizer bushings that weren't even close, and I've seen $100 risers that were dead-on. So it really comes down to the individual riser you have in your hands. 

This, I think, helps explain why some risers I've owned just plain shoot great, and others can't be made to shoot well no matter what I do.

John


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## thac0

What a great post/discussion. I was out of plane and didn't even know it. I never would have known it. I have consulted our resident L4-NTS instructor and he never suggested anything like this.

Thanks for the education!

-Mike


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## gster123

This is a great thread with good information on. I remember doing the something very similar with my Avalon (when the alignment system came out) and it is amazing how much difference it makes. Repeated the process with a new set of limbs a few weeks ago.


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## limbwalker

thac0 said:


> What a great post/discussion. I was out of plane and didn't even know it. I never would have known it. I have consulted our resident L4-NTS instructor and he never suggested anything like this.
> 
> Thanks for the education!
> 
> -Mike


Our current coaching certification courses are pitifully thin on technical information. A person can be a level 4 NTS coach without ever having to demonstrate that they know how to tune a bow. It's a real hole in the system right now.


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## John Hall

Wow! My outdoor setup was OOP (out-of-plane) 1/8" left... easy to correct in minutes. It's raining right now so I'll have to wait to retune with my new centershot. The Cartel Fantom is one of those risers with no easy, centered flats. Had to take off the grip and lay the square flat against a smal, flat section and measure to the string from either side with a second ruler. So, to coin a new phrase... if you're shooting OOP, then you might be SOL until you fix it! 

Thanks John!!!

John


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## rasyad

John, 

Your two arrow tip works great. I have the usual arrow nocked to set the plunger depth and rest height. Having all three reference arrows in place at the same time makes ON PLANE adjustment a snap. 

Great thread, thank you. 

Rasyad


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## Bob Furman

Just a FYI: After having some minor issues with my center shot I happened to check my string groove on each limb for being center and discovered that both my limbs were off by about 1/16". This explained why I could not get it dead on. Mine was always off a bit an if I moved my shims one more time it took it too far the other way. So if you are having issues measure your string grooves and see if they are actually center. I just used a fabric tape measure since it flexes around easier.


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## limbwalker

Rasyad - nice work.


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## JByers

Reference: page 185 of Total Archery..."limb alignment is not critically important...Darrell Pace set World Records with twisted limbs....Rick McKinney won the World Championship in 1983 with a riser that was 3/16" out." I remember walking the line at the 1996 Nationals at Oxford and seeing only one Yamaha out of twelve lining up correctly.


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## limbwalker

JByers said:


> Reference: page 185 of Total Archery..."limb alignment is not critically important...Darrell Pace set World Records with twisted limbs....Rick McKinney won the World Championship in 1983 with a riser that was 3/16" out." I remember walking the line at the 1996 Nationals at Oxford and seeing only one Yamaha out of twelve lining up correctly.


While that may be true, none of those bows had limb alignment systems, and if they did, I can promise you their owners would have used them.


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## ppayne

I thought this might be an interesting addition to the tread...Done the limbwalker centering method, worked like a charm, thank you John, really easy measuring trick which takes the guessing game away ( such as the eternal " am-I standing-really-truly-standing-behind-the-bow-or-I-am-a-tiny-bit-to-the-left-or-to-the-right" question  )...One thing that I noticed though with my Samick Masters Max limbs is that every time I shoot the bow, all align well and is on plane as per showing with the Bow square measuring on both sides at the beginning of the practice. However after 1/2 hour or so, sight aperture, long rod and string have all moved 2-3 mm to the right, never more, never less ( I am a right-handed archer). I have come to understand that there is no need to realign the bow as it will be perfectly aligned and on plane next time I string it back. This puzzles me, I am suspecting that the limbs may be reacting to temperature ( wood core and it has been very warm lately here). Does it affect the scores? Hum, not sure, I am not such a hot shot to start with so hard to say, grouping seems to be the same although it might move off center as the practice progresses ( a bit, not a huge change). I am wondering if those of you using wood core limbs have noticed same..


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## arrowyn

Thanks Limbwalker. And gmx for that video. 

I really didn't understand it all until that you tube video was shown, then I realized what you ment about showing in person and then a light bulb went off . . . 

Good surfboard manufacturers use the same technique (measuring distance on both sides) for alignment of surfboard fins to a plane. I had a similar situation, a friend trying to explain aerial gunnery (before they used radar and computers to calculate) of World War I & II, I didn't get it until it was shown to me. 

I'm blessed to know this as a beginner to archery. 

And to those trying to show up Limbwalker, shame on you. He's trying to offer something good, and just making it complicated like a hollywood movie built on special effects. It may be a blockbuster but will not be remembered.


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## imcabby

great video GMX! 

I happen to have a laser alignment tool I have used for "Centre shot" for my compound bow. 

I will use the same tool, but now on my recurve. Correct my newbish-ness on my order please

attach the laser alignment tool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqWq30cj0Hw

Find Centre of top limb bolt and see if top limb bolt and bottom limb bolt will be in alignment (checking for riser trueness)

from that, ensure that the laser point hits the nocking point. if not, adjust..

with arrow attached , align the nocking point with the tip of your arrow. This will be centre.. adjust your plunger to ensure centre.

that said, did I just completely miss the point?

thanks everyone, it's good to be able to hear many points of view on this.


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## hoytshooter15

I didn't even have to try to get my bow on plane. When I took it out of the box and put it together, everything was nice and aligned!


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## Archer-E

I happened across this video a few days ago and checked my limbs. They needed aligning, but they ended up being on plane. Nice to know what to look for. Thanks for the info and video!


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## ThomVis

imcabby said:


> [...]
> attach the laser alignment tool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqWq30cj0Hw
> [...]
> that said, did I just completely miss the point?


That's a nifty tool that would do the job perfectly, but it's based the assumption that your stabilizer screw hole is true to the riser. I have no idea how exact the industry is in placing the stabilizer mount to the riser, but I personally would rather measure without such an unknown.


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## Denis_Beaudet

Do you ever used four (4) Beiter gauges instead of two? Two near top limbs end and two on riser itself near the pocket limbs. When I have all four Beiter gauges aligned, well I assumed that limbs are well set.


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## robin smith

Limbwalker thx I followed your advise and reset my bow and it made a dramatic difference on group sizes. Shot 3 arrows into the x at 20 yards to form a group smaller than a nickel.


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## SD40

John,

Great thread!, by my Beiter gauges everything lines up. Then your bow square trick on the flat below my Matrix grip and I'm 3/16" out of plane.
(did'nt know that far out was possible?.) I'm out opposite the sight window side. 
I arrived at the current setting with the gauges and the washer system per the Hoyt manual to correct limb tip alignment. 
When the tips looked correct the string was aligned in the gauges also and by my eyes through the back side limb bolts, center of riser, etc.
This is a barebow rig and I do occasionally have a arrow I can't explain this probably is the cause?.
I'll try and put it in plane and see if the tips are fubared again. I'm afraid that far out it could be the riser or Gasp, my limbs?. I'm scaredt!.  

All Good,
Don;


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## limbwalker

So long as you move both limbs the same amount, in the same direction, they will stay in line with one another and the Beiter gauges will read true. Sounds like you need to move one or two washers from the right to the left of the riser (as if you were shooting the bow at the target).

John


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## SD40

John, 

Not sucking up here however, You Da Man!. Finally some decent cooler weather and the weekend off so I thought todays bow plane day!. 
My whole rig is used parts (this one anyway)  Try as I may when I was on plane the Beiter gauges were off or vice/versa if the gauges 
showed good I was off plane. Don't know how I missed it but in setting it up a couple of years ago, I had no washers window side top limb
and all washers on window side lower limb?. I suppose when I turned it around forgot where I was I dunno?. Adjusting the limb tips to the eye gauges showed good and before you shared the plane tip ignorance was bliss. I even tried turning the limb dowels around today against conventional wisdom to get it lined up both ways. It is the limbs another pair corrected my problems. But seeing as how I've been shooting this bow for the past couple of years and knowing my crawls and I have one more league shoot here yet. Ya, I put the old limbs on it and set it up for plane and forgot the gauges. It required the same upper limb sight window side no washers and had to move two washers from the sight window side lower lower limb for plane. What an eye opener!, I'm still in shock!. Went right to 15yds and shot, back to 60yds and shot, everywhere in between, Wow!. Simply amazing!, Many Thanks!. When our paths cross?, it's all on me!. I'll be glad when the outdoor season is over so I can set it up properly!. YeeHaw!. 


All Good,
Don;


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## john kristian

Thanks for the great thread. How can you use the gauge on a riser that is not flat on the opposite side of the shelf?


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## limbwalker

Don, I do accept IPA's as payment for services rendered...  Glad you got it working.

John, some risers make it tough. You just gotta find a good flat surface (best situation is when you can use a flat surface on one side of the riser that is directly opposite of a flat surface on the other side of the riser the same distance from center) somewhere on the riser. My Bernardini Luxor was pretty tough. There was just one spot below the grip where I could measure from on either side.


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## w8lon

It's new bow season, TTT


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## DeadEye987

Limbwalker,

Great tip and awesome follow up pics. 

I am more of a bow caddy than an accomplished archer, but in the spirit of sharing a few lessons I've learned (the hard way) - I would offer for the quickest successful tune, go at it slowly:

I check limb alignment first, adjust the worst limb to center first, the other limb next, then the string plane and lastly plunger.

My sequence:
1) check limb/plane alignement
2) detention string
3) make small changes (1/8 turn or one spacer) and tightened set screws (note for plane you adjust both limbs the same direction and the same amount)
4) string and draw-let down 4 or 5 times prior to measuring/conducting visual alignment check
5) repeat 1-4 as necessary until limbs and string plane are fully aligned
6) set static plunger depth to position arrow on rest position so the visual alignment of the arrow tip is just off center (away from riser) from centerline of string & stabilizer 

Once a shooter has done this a few times, he/she will find 10-15 minute will have their setup right down the middle.

p.s. If you are visually aligning by stepping back to eye align the string/limbs/stabilizer/beiter alignment gauges/etc., place your hand on a chair, bench or fixed rail while viewing the alignment. This help remove a lot of error caused by your mind subconsciously adjusting your head and eyes "fixed perspective".

If any of these lessons is incorrect, please don't hesitate to correct my methodology.
Good luck and great shooting!
Sincerely,
Troy


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## Unk Bond

Hello
Following [ Later


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## limbwalker

> adjust the worst limb to center first,


Curious how you determine this...


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## DeadEye987

Limbwalker,

To establish which limb is worse, I start with Beiter alignment gauges, string and stabilizer on. 

I sight each limb gage through the center of each beiter line and the respective limb bolt hole (which are both centered) using the stabilizer tip as the background reference. 

I realize the stabilizer may not be perfectly centered, but it is close enough to determine which limb furthest off centerline.

This normally results in adjusting one limb, the other and then returning to the first to fine tune center gauge limb alignment.


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## limbwalker

If you're using the stabilizer to determine which limb is worse, you're unfortunately missing the whole point of this thread.


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## DeadEye987

Limbwalker,

Fully understand the thread point about stabilizer potentially no being true to square for exacting limb/plane alignment. However, I have to start tuning somewhere so I do use it as an initial reference to begin tuning the limbs.

I do appreciate your great thread, pics are a great aid - Thanks! 

Sincerely,
Troy


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## limbwalker

String up the bow, then use a bow square to measure from both sides of the riser (or a pair of straight arrows, like in the pictures) and then you'll know which way the string needs to move to get in line with the riser. That's how you will know which direction to move the first limb, and which limb to move first.

You cannot just assume one limb is worse than the other without knowing first which side of the plane the string is on.


----------



## MJAnderson68

Just read this through and am wondering if there is a solution for a riser that isn't flat? I have the SF Forged plus and the areas you used are all slightly oval --- I can't get a flat lay. I did measure where the riser meets the limbs and, using a small level I have for some hobby work, measure that the string was perfectly center to both limbs. But if I understand this correctly all I've done is made sure that my limb bolts are centered since I had previously lined up the string to the bolts.


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## limbwalker

The inside of the sight window, immediately above or below the rest, isn't flat on that riser?


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## Dacer

even if the bow isn't perfectly flat - as long as you can get a equidistant measurement from both sides you can see if the riser is on plane. My helix for example doesn't have a flat spot, level spot to measure. So I measure at the hoyt/helix sticker spot. Its a symmetrical spot on the riser, but not parallel to the string. 

Still by measuring at the same distance from the riser with my bow square it lets me put the string on plane.


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## Mad Wally

In order to set the centershot accurately, why don't manufacturers give the distance from the inside of the sight window to riser center as this would make it much easier to set up?

For my GMX I more or less measured that inside of the sight window to riser center is 10 mm so for setting up with +1 mm centershot the distance window to button must be 10 + 1 - 6.5/2 (half of arrow thickness) = 7.75 mm
The point of the arrow is then offset by 31.5 (arrow length) / 9.25 (brace height) * +1 mm (centershot) = +3.4 mm which is pretty close to half the arrow thickness which is usually advised.


----------



## limbwalker

> In order to set the centershot accurately, why don't manufacturers give the distance from the inside of the sight window to riser center as this would make it much easier to set up?


I've wondered the same thing for years now. I think Hoyt used to provide a measurement years ago, but I haven't seen one in at least 10 years. 

On my Axis riser, I used to just lay a 23xx aluminum arrow flat along the inside of the sight window, and I wanted the string to "almost" touch the edge of that shaft. That got me pretty close. But not all risers have the same depth on their sight windows, as we all know, so yea - a measurement would be very helpful.

Of course, PSE just cut straight to the chase, and put a darn centershot line on their X-appeal risers - one of the most innovative design features in a riser in a long time. And SO SIMPLE TO DO! Talk about serving their customer...!


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## limbwalker

One pretty simple thing a person can do if they don't want to measure anything or get too carried away with this is to just lay an arrow flat along the inside if the sight window, and then look down that arrow from above and see how it compares to the direction the stabilizer is pointing. Then you can tell if your stabilizer is pointing straight, to the left, or to the right, and by how much. Once you know that detail, then you can just stand behind the bow and line the string up against the stabilizer, provided it doesn't change.

That's the "quick and dirty" way to do this.


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## J. Wesbrock

Excellent thread! Thanks as always for the tips.


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## limbwalker

Thanks Jason.

One man's "excellent thread!" is the next guy's "obsessive nonsense..." ha, ha.

I had no idea this would get so long and involved. I still see it as a pretty basic and simple step in setting up a bow with limb alignment adjustments.


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## bobnikon

ALA the PSE line, since the manufacturers don't do it, I suppose we could. Find center and then lay out a line with sharpie, or for the more daring score a line using an awl or file. Then it would be one and done...



limbwalker said:


> I've wondered the same thing for years now. I think Hoyt used to provide a measurement years ago, but I haven't seen one in at least 10 years.
> 
> On my Axis riser, I used to just lay a 23xx aluminum arrow flat along the inside of the sight window, and I wanted the string to "almost" touch the edge of that shaft. That got me pretty close. But not all risers have the same depth on their sight windows, as we all know, so yea - a measurement would be very helpful.
> 
> Of course, PSE just cut straight to the chase, and put a darn centershot line on their X-appeal risers - one of the most innovative design features in a riser in a long time. And SO SIMPLE TO DO! Talk about serving their customer...!


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## limbwalker

Already done it on my risers. 

Show me someone who is afraid to score their riser, and I'll show you someone I want to face in matchplay.  ha, ha.


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## theminoritydude

Ok, here's what I think about the plane.

I used to define the plane as 3 points, which includes the two limb bolts, and the tip of the long stabilizer. The string should lie within this plane. The reason this was so, was because I never thought that a riser/limb combination could be used to define a plane, looking for it would be a pointless affair. I typically hated the idea of using any flat surfaces on the riser to find that plane, as it assumes that the riser alone, together with the manufacturing process, could determine the plane.

I have since devised a method to find the plane which I believe most likely to be "true". It should be a result of the limbs and riser combination, but unlike the method of using a limb gauge, which basically assumes that the lateral dimensions of the limbs determined the center. At best, it determined the physical centre, but not the bow's "dynamic centre". Here's how I think the plane should be defined:

1) String up the bow. Stick a piece of reflective tape flat on the top and bottom limb. Make sure you can make out your face on the tape.
2) Place the bow about 10ft away from yourself, using a string suspended from the ceiling with a weight hung at its end, place your eye on the string, and try to get its reflection off the top reflective tape's center. Do this by adjusting the position of the bow.
3) Confirm the centre with the reflection off the bottom tape. If it does not centre, check the bow for its vertical, as measured from tip to tip. You can use the suspended string to do that. If it still does not center, check that the limbs are not warped.
4) With the suspended string and bow fixed in their respective position, check that the bow string is in line with the limb bolt locking screw and the suspended string. If they are not, apply the conventional alignment method by adjusting the limb alignment screw.
5) Repeat step 2 to 4.

This method should be used for bows that are shot without their stabilizers. On attaching a long stabiliser, one may find that the bow does not "align" with the stabilizer. Blame the stabiliser, or the riser's stabilizer attachment bolt. Takes a little luck to find that perfectly compatible stabiliser. If all the components of your recurve bow are made with the utmost care in quality control, chances are that the center is not hard to determine.


----------



## bobnikon

At which point do you stand on your left foot, rub your stomach with your right hand and pat your head with your left???

I think I will stick with limbwalkers method.

Thanks though, it was an interesting read...

---------------------------

Sorry, my post might have come across as harsh, the method is probably great, by my little mind can only balance so many things at once.

Mea culpa...


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## limbwalker

Ouch...

Well, I'm sure it makes perfect sense to him. Some things are tough to explain, as simple as they may be in person.

I'm sure a qualified physicist / engineer would have to include the mass and direction of stabilization in any calculation of dynamic bow plane. But I'm not an engineer or a physicist. That's just what my gut says.


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## theminoritydude

Engineers would be out of a job without guts of other people.


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## spruis

John, this would make a nice article for Archery Focus magazine. Let me know if you are interested ([email protected]).


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## limbwalker

Thanks Steve. I'm flattered.


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## chrstphr

If your riser is not level etc, 

you can use this method.

String the bow, set center shot to exact center of string. check that string is centered on limbs, riser, arrow etc. 

Then measure the distance from the riser to arrow from rear of the shelf, and then measure from riser to arrow from front of shelf. If you are on plane, both will be same. If they are not the same, then you are not on plane. 

(centershot must be set dead center for this to work). 


Chris


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## limbwalker

> centershot must be set dead center for this to work


Trouble is, most folks would have a real hard time figuring out how to do that. Myself included.


----------



## Bob Furman

limbwalker said:


> Trouble is, most folks would have a real hard time figuring out how to do that. Myself included.


And I doubt there are too many perfectly designed recurves out there. You will always have a a string groove slightly off or a limb off where you don't notice it.


----------



## ThomVis

Okay, here we go.
Ever since this thread started I had a picture in my head I wanted to make. Started drawing and junked it many times, but a recent thread brought this up again so it was time to do it right.
John, correct me if I go off track somewhere.

This is the plane we're talking about (click pics for larger):

This plane is defined by the string and the center of the limbs. In this picture the riser is on plane (the riser has its own plane, which I'll ignore for now). When you draw back the string the pressure point on the grip (purple spot) will remain on this plane; no torque, no twist, everything goes back straight.

This is the way we align things:

The trouble is, when you don't pay (enough) attention to the riser you can align the limbs and string straight, but the riser points slightly to the left or right (riser off plane). The green line at the blue arrow will not run straight off the shelf and the pressure point isn't centered on the plane. Also looking at how the string runs across the grip gives an indication, but it's very hard to see because the grip is very close to the line of the limb pockets around which the riser rotates (yaws) left/right.
When you draw back the string the pressure point will find it's way onto the plane, torquing the riser and twisting the limbs. When you release the string everything goes back to its initial position, generating unwanted sideway forces on the string and arrow.

An off the cuff remark about alignment and mirrors made me think about how to apply this to the on plane adjustment. This is my OCD version of it, and it's very fiddly in setting up.
You start with your Beiter limb alignment blocks lining up the limbs as before, also noting how the string runs across the grip of the bow. When you have this set up you place a mirror behind the bow so you can see the front stabilizer hole on the back (sound backwards). You can line up the mirror by aligning the string to overlay the string reflection at the same time you line it up on the Beiter blocks. You now have the mirror perfectly perpendicular to the plane. If the string and it's reflection are straight across the stabilizer hole you have your riser on plane with the limbs and string.


----------



## kshet26

If the limbs laterally adjust at only one location (typically near the fulcrum of the limb pocket) there is _*only 1*_ position of the limbs in which the string will be coincident with the center of the flexural plane of the limbs. Which is why it's crazy when people suggest 'aligning the limbs and then moving both limbs to align with the stabilizer'. The riser's primary influence on the plane of the limbs (besides the adjustment point) is the plane of the fulcrum of the limb pocket. When the two fulcrums aren't coplanar, the riser is said to be twisted. The rest of the riser doesn't really matter except for the fact that you'd want to adjust everything on the riser relative to the plane of the limbs. Ideally the pressure point will be located on the center of the limb plane as the bow will pivot around that pressure point location.

The problem with using the string for alignment is that when trying to align each limb, the string's position is influenced by the other limb's position, which causes a back and forth in the adjustment (out of plane limbs also causes twisting which further masks alignment issues). 

I have more to say on the topic, but I need to get something in the hands of a few key people first.


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## limbwalker

ThomVis, that is correct. Nice illustration. I may contact you soon for permission to use those.

Kshet, if a person aligns both limbs first (usually the last step most archers take), then it makes it simple to move both limbs in equal amounts to align them with the plane of the riser. In other words, a 1/2 turn top and bottom will keep the limbs in line with each other, while moving the string relative to the plane of the riser. Trying to move just one limb at a time is a recipe for frustration. Best to line both limbs up with one another first, then move them both by the same amount.

John


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## chrstphr

limbwalker said:


> Kshet, if a person aligns both limbs first (usually the last step most archers take), then it makes it simple to move both limbs in equal amounts to align them with the plane of the riser. In other words, a 1/2 turn top and bottom will keep the limbs in line with each other, while moving the string relative to the plane of the riser. Trying to move just one limb at a time is a recipe for frustration. Best to line both limbs up with one another first, then move them both by the same amount.
> 
> John


+1


Chris


----------



## b0w_bender

I know gene linked to his video earlier in this thread ...(back in December)
I just watched it and think it is worth posting again.


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## kshet26

The limbs can't be aligned in the same plane, then moved, if there is only one adjustment mechanism for each limb (pivot around the dovetail). If you've truly aligned the limbs in 3 dimensions (tip to dovetail) and then move both limbs in the same direction, all you've done is move the tips of the limbs out plane of the rest of the limb to satisfy a string-to-riser alignment (because the limb has to pivot around the dovetail). There would need to be 2 laterally moving parts (the limb bolt AND the limb pocket) so that the dovetail and tip move the same amount.

Obviously this is all moot as people can shoot great scores with twisted limbs.


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## bobnikon

kshet26 said:


> The limbs can't be aligned in the same plane, then moved, if there is only one adjustment mechanism for each limb (pivot around the dovetail). If you've truly aligned the limbs in 3 dimensions (tip to dovetail) and then move both limbs in the same direction, all you've done is move the tips of the limbs out plane of the rest of the limb to satisfy a string-to-riser alignment (because the limb has to pivot around the dovetail). There would need to be 2 laterally moving parts (the limb bolt AND the limb pocket) so that the dovetail and tip move the same amount.
> 
> Obviously this is all moot as people can shoot great scores with twisted limbs.


I see what you are saying, but what if you aren't perfectly behind your riser when you align your limbs. You can get a line to seem to align between two beiter gauges (or the limb bolt backings) or whatever you use and not be there. Unless you have something (ie the arrow on either side of the riser projecting back, you may not be actually aligning the limbs in plane, but rather the limbs appear to be aligning in plane based on your perspective. It is like pointing a sight pin at the target with no rear reference and rotating the bow about the sight pin. It could appear to be on target (based on the sight pin alone), but essentially could be anywhere up to 180 degrees away. 

Then again, it is a while since I stayed at a holiday inn express, so I could be completely off.


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## limbwalker

> all you've done is move the tips of the limbs out plane of the rest of the limb to satisfy a string-to-riser alignment (because the limb has to pivot around the dovetail).


I believe that's the whole point of this thread.


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## theminoritydude

About those Beiter gauges....... I have these white board markers. And a plastic rule.


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## kshet26

limbwalker said:


> I believe that's the whole point of this thread.




It's been a while since I went through this thread. So you're saying it's better to sacrifice limb alignment (and therefore to introduce some degree of limb twist) to put the pivot inline with the string at brace?


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## bobnikon

theminoritydude said:


> About those Beiter gauges....... I have these white board markers. And a plastic rule.


I use tape and a sharpie, the theory still stands


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## Ms. X Hunter

I just watched the video, and it makes everything seem so simple!

What do you call the stand/grip thing that he uses to secure the bow?


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## limbwalker

kshet26 said:


> It's been a while since I went through this thread. So you're saying it's better to sacrifice limb alignment (and therefore to introduce some degree of limb twist) to put the pivot inline with the string at brace?


I don't think you're following correctly, or else I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. There is no "sacrifice" involved. Line up both limbs, then adjust them both the same amount until the string is on plane with the riser. Simple.


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## Ten_Zen

Plane Shmane


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## Seattlepop

kshet26 said:


> The limbs can't be aligned in the same plane, then moved, if there is only one adjustment mechanism for each limb (pivot around the dovetail). If you've truly aligned the limbs in 3 dimensions (tip to dovetail) and then move both limbs in the same direction, all you've done is move the tips of the limbs out plane of the rest of the limb to satisfy a string-to-riser alignment (because the limb has to pivot around the dovetail). *There would need to be 2 laterally moving parts* (the limb bolt AND the limb pocket) so that the dovetail and tip move the same amount.
> 
> Obviously this is all moot as people can shoot great scores with twisted limbs.


Think of it as three planes. One is the riser, the other two are the limbs. In your example, the limbs are on the same plane, but offset and parallel to the riser's plane. In that case you would need to move the two parallel limb planes onto the riser plane and that can only be done as you describe, with a limb pocket similar to those on the PSE Zone. FWIW, this is not the problem addressed in this thread. 



bobnikon said:


> I see what you are saying, but what if you aren't perfectly behind your riser when you align your limbs. You can get a line to seem to align between two beiter gauges (or the limb bolt backings) or whatever you use and not be there. Unless you have something (ie the arrow on either side of the riser projecting back, you may not be actually aligning the limbs in plane, but rather the *limbs appear to be aligning in plane based on your perspective*. It is like pointing a sight pin at the target with no rear reference and rotating the bow about the sight pin. It could appear to be on target (based on the sight pin alone), but essentially could be anywhere up to 180 degrees away.
> 
> Then again, it is a while since I stayed at a holiday inn express, so I could be completely off.


I'm pretty sure the bold is really the problem addressed in this thread and is what the video refers to starting at 2:45. This photo is an example of that perspective, a seemingly aligned bow (click on it for enlargement):









The video checks for on-plane string alignment by measuring with a T-square off the flat grip area of the riser. With parallel surfaces, I just put two arrows against each side of the riser and eyeball the string for center:









The same two arrows can be used to check your stabilizer alignment:

















10 pages and I think probably nine of them are over-thinking the valuable lesson John intended to demonstrate. Imho.


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## theminoritydude

Please tell me those are not ACEs......


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## theminoritydude

Oh crap. They are.


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## limbwalker

Ten_Zen said:


> Plane Shmane


Exactly. Now you've got it!


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## ThomVis

kshet26 said:


> It's been a while since I went through this thread. So you're saying it's better to sacrifice limb alignment (and therefore to introduce some degree of limb twist) to put the pivot inline with the string at brace?


No, it's about perceived limb alignment.
The human eye/brain is ill equipped to deal with precise measurements, especially when it's spacial and bi-focal (string and limbs at different distances). We sometimes don't see misalignments (or don't want to see), the string being twisted doesn't help, light plays a huge role on how we perceive things. When the adjustment is off by fractions of a millimeter it takes just a slight bump of the string to move it perceived alignment, specially with the string grooves in the limbs. It's nice to have an alternative way to see misalignments where the measurement points are further apart so it becomes easier to spot deviations.
This touches on another question, how precise does the adjustment need to be? Depends on the archer. Any bow, tuned or out of tune, will shoot arrows at the same spot from a hooter-shooter. We are not hooter-shooters, we are inconsistent biological heretics introducing our own unique mistakes to each shot. We need the bow tuned so the "mistakes" introduced by the bow are proportionally smaller than the mistakes introduced by the archer. Where point of diminished returns in tuning is is anybodies guess, but a perfectly tuned bow is wasted on a complete novice. 1 millimeter (just a number) off-plane might be noticed by Ellison and Oh, but for the rest of us? The same goes for tiller adjustment, matching bow weight to arrow spine, etc..
One thing I do know that tuning your bow to the best of your abilities also has a mental aspect to it, having faith in your equipment. When I'm on the line and the arrow doesn't go where I want it, when nothing is out of whack it was probably my fault the arrow went there, not something the bow introduced. So I can focus on shooting my next arrow perfectly and now worry about my half-***** job I did on tuning my bow.


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## kshet26

Seattlepop said:


> In your example, the limbs are on the same plane, but offset and parallel to the riser's plane. In that case you would need to move the two parallel limb planes onto the riser plane and that can only be done as you describe, with a limb pocket similar to those on the PSE Zone. FWIW, this is not the problem addressed in this thread.


That's one situation. 

So now I think I understand. You're saying that all you're doing is eliminating parallax by trying to get it in the center of the riser. So step 1 is really 'do your best to get what appears to be aligned limbs (but they really aren't because of the parallax error we're trying to eliminate)' then move the limbs in the same direction to get the string to be in the center of the riser.


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## limbwalker

Pretty much. There are two "alignments" going on here. 1) are the limbs in line with each other, and 2) is that line the same as the plane of the riser?


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## OlyShoot

Don't forget that play/looseness between the tiller bolt / limb notch can affect centering alignments and consistency. There shouldn't be any wiggle room, the limb notch should fit snugly on the tiller bolt. When mixing and matching across ILF component companies be sure to check and tune the fit.


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## Ten_Zen

limbwalker said:


> Exactly. Now you've got it!


I actually did just check it out, and yes, I am on the plane. And the more I think about it the more I realize how important it probably is. Even slightly off plane, the limb tips would be experiencing lateral torque which would likely affect the motion of the string during the powerstroke. This could cause left-right inconsistency, or just a wobbly arrow in general. So not plane shmane, I guess.

Edit: these affects would be greatly outweighed by archer's paradox, but from a strictly mechanical perspective, they would be noticeable...


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## Nick1959

I used a lazer attached to the riser to align limbs. I did not check if they were on plane until tonight. Guess I was lucky. They are on plane. Great thread, thanks for the insight.

Nick


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## Vittorio

In any limbs alignement process, you should remember that you are delaing with a sum of tolerancies for all surfaces, with increase of surface tolerance for all hand finished surfaces

Riser surfaces you can't trust 
----------------------------------------
inner window
outside window
ouside of both pockets 
bottom window

Riser surface you may trust
-----------------------------------
both sides under the grip 

Limbs surfaces you can't trust
-------------------------------------
both sides of the limbs
limbs tips

Limbs surfaces you may trust 
-------------------------------------
both faces of the limbs
back face of the pocket area

Planes you can not trust
---------------------------------
inner limbs pocket (or were the limbs sit in bow) planes

Planes you may trust
-----------------------------
line passing from therotetical center of riser and all back (string side) holes centers. 

All system discussed here are OK in many specific combinations of the above mentioned doubtfull areas, if limbs are close to be straight and not twisted and riser is not twisted. But you first need to know how to determine if the limbs are twisted, the riser is twisted or both have problems, and what sort of problems they may have. 

So, as you should start from somewere, best starting point in my experience is to use the system W&W suggests since many many years, that means to use the long rod for initial alignement. 
I don't go to details, as discussed many times already, and of course you need a long rod + extender assembly certified as straight on another riser, and a line marked on the back of the limbs pockets to make the aligenmnt. The limbs gages are NOT a solution, as they also move during alignement process. Vertical reference(s) must be stable close to back top and lower holes. 
If moving at the same time both upper and lower aligemnt system you can move the string from left to right of the long rod center plane (be careful, some risers like the G1, the Luxor 27, , the Zenit and the Mercury have the long rod bushing one mm out of the center plane), riser+limbs combination can be put on plane. So do it. 
Then, check if the limbs are dinamically twisting by the use of a fixed rod to keep the bow open like the Beiter one, and check again the alignment plane at full draw. If they are not, it means limbs are twisted, riser is twisted or both. 
Then you have to start the investigation process to detrmine if the problems comes from limbs, riser or both, to try to correct it.
But, if you can not at least pass the first step, your problems are proabably bigger than those that can be solved by limbs alignement system. 

P.S.
checking the long rod bushing with two arrows on the planes under the grip is probably the best practical solution for that


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## theminoritydude

There is no such thing as "THE" plane. It's a ghost, at best an anecdote of personal belief and experience.


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## Joe T

Maybe one additional tip when looking for a piece of riser to measure the string position against.
Get two straight arrow shafts and hold them both at one end against the opposite sides of the riser. (the arrows shafts don't have to be at 90 deg to the string - an example of this is under the Samick Masters handle where the long rod bushing prevents a 90 deg position). Visually check (or measure if needed) that the two shafts are parallel. Over a 30" arrow it's pretty obvious whether the two riser surfaces are parallel to each other or not and it's also pretty obvious if the riser surfaces are parallel to the bow plane.


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## massman

So it's good to have the bow "mechancally" on plain. Agree on this.

How about what then happens when you put this bow in the hands of an archer?

If the archers placement of their hand is off...moving the center of pressure on the grip to one side or the other of the center of this "plain"...what is the result?

Is the archer now shooting the bow "off plain?"

I like to look at the reaction of the stabilizer as the archer draws the bow. Seeing if the end will kick to one side of the other.
Resulting from this "Center of pressure" on the grip being off.

SO, yes it is important to have the bow on plain.. but is it not as equally important to draw and shoot the bow "on plain?"

Regards,

Tom


----------



## theminoritydude

massman said:


> So it's good to have the bow "mechancally" on plain. Agree on this.
> 
> How about what then happens when you put this bow in the hands of an archer?
> 
> If the archers placement of their hand is off...moving the center of pressure on the grip to one side or the other of the center of this "plain"...what is the result?
> 
> Is the archer now shooting the bow "off plain?"
> 
> I like to look at the reaction of the stabilizer as the archer draws the bow. Seeing if the end will kick to one side of the other.
> Resulting from this "Center of pressure" on the grip being off.
> 
> SO, yes it is important to have the bow on plain.. but is it not as equally important to draw and shoot the bow "on plain?"
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


If the bow draws "off plane", what kind of plane is that? Another arbitrary plane.


----------



## chrstphr

massman said:


> So it's good to have the bow "mechancally" on plain. Agree on this.
> 
> How about what then happens when you put this bow in the hands of an archer?
> 
> If the archers placement of their hand is off...moving the center of pressure on the grip to one side or the other of the center of this "plain"...what is the result?
> 
> Is the archer now shooting the bow "off plain?"
> 
> I like to look at the reaction of the stabilizer as the archer draws the bow. Seeing if the end will kick to one side of the other.
> Resulting from this "Center of pressure" on the grip being off.
> 
> SO, yes it is important to have the bow on plain.. but is it not as equally important to draw and shoot the bow "on plain?"
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


You would just be torqueing the bow. Hand placement on grip has nothing to do with it. Anymore so than hand placement on grip factors in to string and limb alignment. I dont know why you are hung up on it. If plane is correct, the bow will shoot the arrow straight off it, regardless of where the hand on the grip aims it. The arrow will just go where the bow is aimed. On target or off.

Chris


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## kshet26

The entire bow will rotate during the draw, usually at the wrist. 

All a shift of the pressure point does is subtly change where the bow is pointing.


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## massman

Chris,

Personally I really did not appreciate your comment "I dont know why you are hung up on it. "

My point is that, even with the bow on plain... if you "torque" the bow at draw... the results you're seeking will not be the results you get.

Shooting the bow on the same plain as the mechanical "on plain" set-up is important to a good result.

Regards,

Tom


----------



## midwayarcherywi

You are trying to put a form element into a thread about an equipment element. Of course if your form is less than ideal, it doesn't matter how well your bow is set up and tuned. You are talking about 2 different mechanical systems. 1) bow 2) archer. I think people understand this. I'm not sure what you are trying to interject into the discussion about a bow tuning parameter.


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## theminoritydude

I understand. In fact I think massman is one of the few who truly understands the idea of the plane, and its relationship with form and technique. I do think he asks some of the most important questions.


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## Joe T

If the limbs are are not in line then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.
If the string line (aligned limbs or not) is not "in plane" then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.
Meeting both conditions (as identified above) gives you a vertical plane on the grip where bow hand pressure will not torque the limbs.
If the archer's pressure point on the grip is horizontally displaced from this vertical plane then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.

So limb alignment creates a zero torque pressure point on the grip. It is up to the archer to repetitavely find and use this point.


----------



## theminoritydude

Joe T said:


> If the limbs are are not in line then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.
> If the string line (aligned limbs or not) is not "in plane" then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.
> Meeting both conditions (as identified above) gives you a vertical plane on the grip where bow hand pressure will not torque the limbs.
> If the archer's pressure point on the grip is horizontally displaced from this vertical plane then drawing the bow will always torque the limbs.
> 
> So limb alignment creates a zero torque pressure point on the grip. It is up to the archer to repetitavely find and use this point.


But that's assuming a rigid riser, or one that is symmetrical. How many risers out there are symmetrical, or rigid?


----------



## Joe T

theminoritydude said:


> But that's assuming a rigid riser, or one that is symmetrical. How many risers out there are symmetrical, or rigid?


I haven't mentioned the 3rd axis (limb or riser twist) affects on being in plane either . Vittorio did mention the in-plane "variation with draw" element (the fifth dimension  ). You only ever have partial answers to anything. It comes down to having something useful. The discussion on "in plane" started by Limbwalker was useful as there are a lot of archers/coaches out there who think that getting a couple of Beiter gauges in line is "it" as far as limb alignment is concerned.


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## theminoritydude

3 axes are sufficient to define all spatial variations in the discussion. Which "fifth" dimension would that be?


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## limbwalker

Here's what I think - adjust what is easy to adjust, then just go shoot and don't worry about the things you don't have control over. 

If a riser has limb alignment adjustments, then we have control over 1) whether the limbs are in line with one another, and 2) whether they are on plane with the riser.

Why wouldn't a person make sure they begin with this?


----------



## gitnbetr

limbwalker said:


> Here's what I think - adjust what is easy to adjust, then just go shoot and don't worry about the things you don't have control over.
> 
> If a riser has limb alignment adjustments, then we have control over 1) whether the limbs are in line with one another, and 2) whether they are on plane with the riser.
> 
> Why wouldn't a person make sure they begin with this?


Ignorance


----------



## chrstphr

massman said:


> Chris,
> 
> Personally I really did not appreciate your comment "I dont know why you are hung up on it. "
> 
> My point is that, even with the bow on plain... if you "torque" the bow at draw... the results you're seeking will not be the results you get.
> 
> Shooting the bow on the same plain as the mechanical "on plain" set-up is important to a good result.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


Then i apologize. I did not mean to insult you. My meaning was you keep posting that the grip placement supercedes any bow plane, and that you can change your grip to correct any alignment issues. You keep going back to grip, when the thread is the bow aligmment itself, not the user.

Chris


----------



## Bob Furman

John and others who may have some insightful wisdom to offer.... I started to think..Oh yes, that can be dangerous 

I definitely see the reasoning behind this and of course it all makes perfect sense, but I wonder if you can answer me a question or two:


- Why has this never made it into any of the popular Tuning guides? I don't recall seeing this in the Easton Tuning Guide, Tuning for Tens or the FITA Coaches Manual???

- Is having your Bow on plane really what we want for a Recurve Finger Shooter? After all wouldn't it seem logical to have this offset in a similar fashion as we do in setting up the Center-shot with the arrow slightly offset away from the riser??


I'm not trying to say this is wrong, I was just wondering these points of interest....


----------



## Dacer

Interesting question. 


My take away from 11 pages of this - align the limbs so they aren't experienceing a moment about the axis from the dovetail, to the limb tip. In an ideal case. 

Then just go shoot.


----------



## Vittorio

Bob Furman said:


> .....
> - Is having your Bow on plane really what we want for a Recurve Finger Shooter? .......


And also what we want for a compound/release shooter, of course. 

As Joe T. mentioned, what archers need is to get a bow (any kind of bow) that can grant limbs travelling with tips (or cams) straight on the center shot line (or cams line),if no torque is applied to the grip. Then, any grip /hand relationship will aply a torque of some kind during traction, and rerturn it during release. It is arche'r problem to make himself working with his bow / grip 7 draw line, arrow , stabs etc. combination. The secret of a good tuning remains to find the combo that makes everything back to the line as soon as possible after string leaves the fingers (release). This involves tons of variables, including limbs torsional stability (cam balance), but you surely don't want a bow that has not by itself a "line" to reach when string is released.


----------



## Mad Wally

Bob Furman said:


> - Is having your Bow on plane really what we want for a Recurve Finger Shooter? After all wouldn't it seem logical to have this offset in a similar fashion as we do in setting up the Center-shot with the arrow slightly offset away from the riser??


That is a very interesting question, however it would include yet another tuning parameter and there already so many variables. I would opt for "on plane" and take it from there. On the other hand the seed has been planted ans who knows?


----------



## Bob Furman

Mad Wally said:


> That is a very interesting question, however it would include yet another tuning parameter and there already so many variables. I would opt for "on plane" and take it from there. On the other hand the seed has been planted ans who knows?


I agree with adding another tuning parameter would be the last thing we need, but I would think a company like Easton/Hoyt would of known or thought about this years ago?


----------



## Joe T

Bob Furman said:


> ...
> - Why has this never made it into any of the popular Tuning guides? I don't recall seeing this in the Easton Tuning Guide, Tuning for Tens or the FITA Coaches Manual???....


IMO bow set up and tuning are different things and limb alignment comes under bow set up. Limb alignment does get a brief mention in the FITA Coaches Manual. Problem is if you tried to write a comprehensive set up/tuning guide you would need a fork lift truck to carry it around. These guides can point you in the right direction but the only way you really get to grips with the set up/tuning issue is lots of practical experiment and experience.



Bob Furman said:


> ...
> - Is having your Bow on plane really what we want for a Recurve Finger Shooter? After all wouldn't it seem logical to have this offset in a similar fashion as we do in setting up the Center-shot with the arrow slightly offset away from the riser??


I think center shot is one of the least understood aspects of recurve finger shooting. Lots of practical experience but pretty much zero understanding of what effect it has.


----------



## theminoritydude

Joe T said:


> I think center shot is one of the least understood aspects of recurve finger shooting. Lots of practical experience but pretty much zero understanding of what effect it has.


It's funny how the lay person views archery as basically a curved stick with a string most of the time, and modern archers have to frequently jump in to include stabilizers that add an extended plane into the discussion. But suddenly when we talk about where to set the string and the limb, the opposite seems to happen.

Consider 2 bows: The first shoots the arrow in such a way that the extended plane (represented by the forward pointing long stabilizer) is subjected to a left/right disturbance, and may or may not have resulted in a visible left/right swing at its tip. The second, the extended plane is pretty much left alone with little left/right disturbance.

Question: Which of the above system would you tune your bow to become? Or have you ever bothered to answer such a question? How would a lay person who is a trained mechanical engineer choose?


----------



## Joe T

Bob Furman said:


> - Is having your Bow on plane really what we want for a Recurve Finger Shooter? After all wouldn't it seem logical to have this offset in a similar fashion as we do in setting up the Center-shot with the arrow slightly offset away from the riser??


Better answer required.(my opinion only).. When you (finger) release the string force on the fingers rotates the fingers/wrist resulting in the (connected) arrow nock moving sideways 2mm say away from the bow plane. This happens before any string loading on the arrow shaft occurs. So if the arrow was initially lined up in the bow plane then by the time the string load goes on to the arrow shaft the arrow is at an angle to the bow plane (nock away/point towards). If instead you start off with the arrow aligned in the opposite sense with point set ~2mm outside the bow plane with the button center shot then the act of the fingers is to rotate the arrow back in line parallel to the bow plane. If you like the center shot offsets the lateral nock movement by the fingers. If you define "dynamic spine" as the distance the nock initially moves out of the bow plane under the combined action of structural instability (buckling) and string bending moment then the advantage, in terms of forgiveness, to offsetting the arrow via center shot makes sense. As mentioned before, understanding of the initial bending of the arrow (and the effect of center shot on this) is pretty minimal.


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## spogshd

This could go on and on, if you position the X10 outside of the string (center shot) wouldn't the barrel effect of the arrow change this as you draw the arrow back.


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## antioch

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think it is inline with the discussion. What are the different methods to "stand up"/mount your recurve for this type of tuning (i.e. checking limb alignment and also on plane)? Pictures would be ideal.


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## Seattlepop

antioch said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think it is inline with the discussion. What are the different methods to "stand up"/mount your recurve for this type of tuning (i.e. checking limb alignment and also on plane)? Pictures would be ideal.


There are a number of photo examples in this thread if you go back and read though it.


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## sprinke

How does one determine if the riser itself is twisted? Or there is some problem with the limb pockets?


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## Bob Furman

sprinke said:


> How does one determine if the riser itself is twisted? Or there is some problem with the limb pockets?


You can use a modified version of "winding sticks" borrowed from the woodworking community.

With bow strung, string facing upward parallel to the floor, place an arrow shaft on the top of each limb. Secure with a rubber band to keep the arrows in place. 

You can now visually line to the two arrow shafts and see if there are any differences.

If they are the same, you are good to go. If there are some differences, you can shim up on side to match the other.


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## sprinke

Bob Furman said:


> You can use a modified version of "winding sticks" borrowed from the woodworking community.
> 
> With bow strung, string facing upward parallel to the floor, place an arrow shaft on the top of each limb. Secure with a rubber band to keep the arrows in place.
> 
> You can now visually line to the two arrow shafts and see if there are any differences.
> 
> If they are the same, you are good to go. If there are some differences, you can shim up on side to match the other.


I'm having difficulty visualizing the "place an arrow shaft on the top of each limb" step, and also if the limbs are involved, how that is used to determine riser twist (if limb twist is also a possibility).

EDIT: A quick google for "winding sticks" and now I understand the concept, but still not 100% sure how that indicates riser twist. Do you place the arrows butt against where they come out of the riser? Is there any reason why the bow must be braced at all? (i.e., could you just do this with arrows attached to the riser at the ends?)


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## bobnikon

sprinke said:


> I'm having difficulty visualizing the "place an arrow shaft on the top of each limb" step, and also if the limbs are involved, how that is used to determine riser twist (if limb twist is also a possibility).
> 
> EDIT: A quick google for "winding sticks" and now I understand the concept, but still not 100% sure how that indicates riser twist. Do you place the arrows butt against where they come out of the riser? Is there any reason why the bow must be braced at all? (i.e., could you just do this with arrows attached to the riser at the ends?)


To determine twist of the riser I would use the sticks on the riser itself. Even the interface of the riser and limbs could be a little different from end to end. Winding sticks, by design and function, are very finicky.


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## Bob Furman

bobnikon said:


> To determine twist of the riser I would use the sticks on the riser itself. Even the interface of the riser and limbs could be a little different from end to end. Winding sticks, by design and function, are very finicky.


Bob,

That is certainly a very good idea, but I think the designs of many limb pockets and risers make it difficult to place winding sticks on the riser by itself. 

It seems that the original document that I had bookmarked is now MIA so I will post another Thread Titled "Winding Sticks" shortly with pictures.


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## bobnikon

Bob Furman said:


> Bob,
> 
> That is certainly a very good idea, but I think the designs of many limb pockets and risers make it difficult to place winding sticks on the riser by itself.
> 
> It seems that the original document that I had bookmarked is now MIA so I will post another Thread Titled "Winding Sticks" shortly with pictures.


I agree, it would be hard to get the sticks in identical spots on the opposite ends of the riser on many.


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## kshet26

The idea is that what ever is happening around the limb pocket/dovetail/limb bolt area sets the direction of the limb. If you're trying to isolate just the pocket's effect on the limb (and rule out any deviation due to a twisted limb), the best spot would be at the part of the limb where it meets the riser.

Edit - I will add that I've seen limbs that have pretty significant divots in them due to the pressure of the limb against the riser (mostly on Hoyts with dowels). This slight structural change to the limb might cause a false reading on riser twist.


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## theminoritydude

sprinke said:


> How does one determine if the riser itself is twisted? Or there is some problem with the limb pockets?


Risers are almost always twisted. If you want to know, a straight riser could still be twisted the moment you string it up, and depending on the poundage, the level of twist might differ. The main objective of limb alignment is to ensure minimal lateral movement during release, though a secondary objective could be achieved, though it is somewhat the same as the primary but indirectly.

Anyway to answer your question, use a small flat mirror. Hold it flushed to the edge of one of your limb pockets (riser resting somewhere) and tilt it until you could see your own eye reflected back, then put a still object at the same location as your eye was as reference. That spot should between the limb pockets, and about 2 feet away from the throat of the grip. Now move the mirror to the other pocket and do the same. If you can find the image reflected back at you at the same spot, it's more or less straight. 

If it is not, no big deal. There are ways to make the bow shoot straight. There are a lot of awfully misaligned bows even on the World Cup/Championship/Olympics, they still appear to shoot OK.


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## ThomVis

ThomVis said:


> Okay, here we go.
> Ever since this thread started I had a picture in my head I wanted to make. Started drawing and junked it many times, but a recent thread brought this up again so it was time to do it right.
> John, correct me if I go off track somewhere.
> 
> This is the plane we're talking about (click pics for larger):
> 
> This plane is defined by the string and the center of the limbs. In this picture the riser is on plane (the riser has its own plane, which I'll ignore for now). When you draw back the string the pressure point on the grip (purple spot) will remain on this plane; no torque, no twist, everything goes back straight.
> 
> This is the way we align things:
> 
> The trouble is, when you don't pay (enough) attention to the riser you can align the limbs and string straight, but the riser points slightly to the left or right (riser off plane). The green line at the blue arrow will not run straight off the shelf and the pressure point isn't centered on the plane. Also looking at how the string runs across the grip gives an indication, but it's very hard to see because the grip is very close to the line of the limb pockets around which the riser rotates (yaws) left/right.
> When you draw back the string the pressure point will find it's way onto the plane, torquing the riser and twisting the limbs. When you release the string everything goes back to its initial position, generating unwanted sideway forces on the string and arrow.
> 
> An off the cuff remark about alignment and mirrors made me think about how to apply this to the on plane adjustment. This is my OCD version of it, and it's very fiddly in setting up.
> You start with your Beiter limb alignment blocks lining up the limbs as before, also noting how the string runs across the grip of the bow. When you have this set up you place a mirror behind the bow so you can see the front stabilizer hole on the back (sound backwards). You can line up the mirror by aligning the string to overlay the string reflection at the same time you line it up on the Beiter blocks. You now have the mirror perfectly perpendicular to the plane. If the string and it's reflection are straight across the stabilizer hole you have your riser on plane with the limbs and string.


Fixed the images.


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## kshet26

This is a very complex topic because it requires mental visualization in 3 dimensions.

To counter the above post, due to current riser design (one mechanism for lateral limb alignment), it's more important to get the limbs to flex along the same plane in 3 dimensions than to align to anything on the riser. Pressure point can be adjusted by altering grip.

A scenerio: if you align the string to the 3d center of the limbs, and it doesnt correspond to the center of the pressure point, it's not possible to then adjust the limb alignment to be centered to the pressure point and still be centered to the limbs. Doing so compromises the limb flex and introduces limb torque. It would be better to alter the grip.


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## Belicoso

What a great wealth of information in this thread.


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## moomooholycow

jhinaz said:


> My head hurts!
> If I was a person considering buying a bow for the first time and I read all this technocrap I would take up a different sport/hobby. It's shouldn't be that difficult.....adjust what you can and just shoot the bow. - John


This kind of thing always made me thankful for my Sky Conquest when I was first starting out.


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## Gregjlongbow

So I can say pretty certainly at this point that my SF Forged + is not straight. When I get the limbs aligned, they are off from the riser plane. There really isn't a particular place on that riser that gives a consistent reading for where the riser plane is, and the stabilizer bushing is definitely not straight. It's pointed off the the left. I'm just going to go with the limb alignment for now, and buy a straight riser.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ceratops

I just wanted to thank Limbwalker (and all others who posted useful comments and further elucidations on this thread)!

I recently purchased a PSE Intrepid (on AT Classifieds) to set up for barebow. I lined everything up visually as closely as I could -- string bisecting both limbs, and apparently centered on the riser. I had no trouble convincing myself that everything looked well centered! However, the experience of setting up a new bow brought the general topic of alignment back to mind, so I spent some time reading threads on the forum, and eventually came across this one. I then did the test with two arrows placed on a flat section of the riser, and was impressed to see that the string was not at all centered between the two arrow shafts; in fact, the string was practically touching one of arrows, so probably a good 1/4" off. I then did the recommended equal movement on top and bottom limbs (very easy on the PSE riser, btw, since the limb bolts are made to travel side to side on a threaded bolt -- it's cool to be able to make minor adjustments of limb position with the bow still strung). Sure enough, after adjusting both limbs, the string still looked nicely centered on the two limbs and on the riser, just like it did before... But now the string was also exactly halfway between the two reference arrows (straight-edges) laid on the flat section of the riser, as it should be.

I was impressed that it is very very easy to shift one's point of view just a bit, and thereby come to the wrong conclusion about whether the setup is properly centered on the riser. John's method allows one to check for this inadvertent misalignment, and quickly correct it.

I think all the comments about other possible degrees of freedom (e.g. limb pockets that are not in the same plane), or about twisted limbs/risers kind of miss the original point of this thread -- i.e. that this is a method that basically catches errors that are easily made when one just eyeballs the position of the string during setup. Of course the method cannot fully correct all those other sorts of problems that were described by various posters. As was pointed out by several people, lateral movement of the limb bases simply can't correct all potential flaws.

After seeing how far off I was on the Intrepid, I took a look at the other bow I've been using (Matrix), which has always looked pretty perfectly aligned to me. Sure enough, it was also off from center (not nearly as bad as the PSE). Moving one washer over on each bolt shifted it just enough to be centered -- not as quick and easy as making the adjustment on the PSE riser, but still a pretty quick process overall. I think the person who sold me that Matrix riser (Seattlepop) had actually pointed out this issue to me, and I had skimmed right over it -- because the bow looked so nicely centered the first time I put limbs on it. LOL

So, thanks again! A very useful thread which deserves to be bumped back to the top from time to time...


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## limbwalker

ceratops said:


> I just wanted to thank Limbwalker (and all others who posted useful comments and further elucidations on this thread)!
> 
> I recently purchased a PSE Intrepid (on AT Classifieds) to set up for barebow. I lined everything up visually as closely as I could -- string bisecting both limbs, and apparently centered on the riser. I had no trouble convincing myself that everything looked well centered! However, the experience of setting up a new bow brought the general topic of alignment back to mind, so I spent some time reading threads on the forum, and eventually came across this one. I then did the test with two arrows placed on a flat section of the riser, and was impressed to see that the string was not at all centered between the two arrow shafts; in fact, the string was practically touching one of arrows, so probably a good 1/4" off. I then did the recommended equal movement on top and bottom limbs (very easy on the PSE riser, btw, since the limb bolts are made to travel side to side on a threaded bolt -- it's cool to be able to make minor adjustments of limb position with the bow still strung). Sure enough, after adjusting both limbs, the string still looked nicely centered on the two limbs and on the riser, just like it did before... But now the string was also exactly halfway between the two reference arrows (straight-edges) laid on the flat section of the riser, as it should be.
> 
> I was impressed that it is very very easy to shift one's point of view just a bit, and thereby come to the wrong conclusion about whether the setup is properly centered on the riser. John's method allows one to check for this inadvertent misalignment, and quickly correct it.
> 
> I think all the comments about other possible degrees of freedom (e.g. limb pockets that are not in the same plane), or about twisted limbs/risers kind of miss the original point of this thread -- i.e. that this is a method that basically catches errors that are easily made when one just eyeballs the position of the string during setup. Of course the method cannot fully correct all those other sorts of problems that were described by various posters. As was pointed out by several people, lateral movement of the limb bases simply can't correct all potential flaws.
> 
> After seeing how far off I was on the Intrepid, I took a look at the other bow I've been using (Matrix), which has always looked pretty perfectly aligned to me. Sure enough, it was also off from center (not nearly as bad as the PSE). Moving one washer over on each bolt shifted it just enough to be centered -- not as quick and easy as making the adjustment on the PSE riser, but still a pretty quick process overall. I think the person who sold me that Matrix riser (Seattlepop) had actually pointed out this issue to me, and I had skimmed right over it -- because the bow looked so nicely centered the first time I put limbs on it. LOL
> 
> So, thanks again! A very useful thread which deserves to be bumped back to the top from time to time...


I'm glad you found it helpful. To me at least, a bow that is set up on plane is quieter, smoother and more forgiving to shoot!


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## ceratops

I did have that 'lightbulb moment' you were talking about. Started reading the thread, and was kind of skeptical that this simple approach could solve all those misaligned/twisted equipment issues people were raising in some of the responses. Until I realized that the approach is not meant to address major defects in the riser or limbs; instead it addresses the fact that it is so easy to get normal non-defective risers and limbs set up -- looking nice and centered -- but still end up with the string being out of plane with the riser.

I just made the adjustments, so am not sure yet if I will see clear benefits while shooting. In any case, I'll have more confidence that the bow is doing what it is supposed to do. Eliminating equipment defects, so that one can better focus on the inevitable archer defects, seems to be one of the ongoing goals of this pastime!


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