# Rotational fletching for field and 3D... How to? What kind?



## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

I'm trying to figure out what to fletch my Nano XR (tiny carbon) arrows with. I have learned from my own straight vane, helical vane and Aerovane III experiments that spinning the arrow makes for flatter flight and tighter groups from 35 yards out to 70 or more. You can't convince me otherwise, my tests are sure enough for me, let alone all the testimonies out there.

I'm worried that too much helical on these small diameter arrows will result in inconsistent rubs on the lizard tongue rest. I would like to try XS Spin Wings in the 60mm length low profile for sub 270fps compound, but don't know how to fletch them, what the options are, or best configuration. I like the Aerovane III that fletch fine on the Bitz, but am wondering if I should have more rotation through greater helical. The higher the helical angle, the more sure the rest rubbing and bumping is.

I have a Bitzenburger Jig with straight and RH helical clamps and the Zenith modification for pin adapters.

How do I deal with the fletching rub and bump on the rest with helical and XS Spin Wings on small diameter arrows?
And how are your spin wings or aerovanes or other rotational vanes applied?


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## MiniJCW (Apr 27, 2014)

I use a 1-2 degree offset with my small vanes on my carbon ones. Helical configuration can cause a little more drag, and slow the arrows down more at 70-90m that i have seen. I have found that small vanes and an small offset (1-2 degree) of the vanes creates a happy balance for getting the arrows to spin and to keep arrow velocity as high as possible from my target bow.

Spin wings i would only use a drop down rest to keep the spin wing maintenance low, i would imagine shooting spin wings through a blade rest would cause a lot of tears and lost fletching with spin wings, not to mention the contact you would get on the rest as well.

My vanes i use are the bohning X vane 1.5 (3grains) light weight and very low profile.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

MiniJCW said:


> I use a 1-2 degree offset with my small vanes on my carbon ones. Helical configuration can cause a little more drag, and slow the arrows down more at 70-90m that i have seen. I have found that small vanes and an small offset (1-2 degree) of the vanes creates a happy balance for getting the arrows to spin and to keep arrow velocity as high as possible from my target bow.
> 
> Spin wings i would only use a drop down rest to keep the spin wing maintenance low, i would imagine shooting spin wings through a blade rest would cause a lot of tears and lost fletching with spin wings, not to mention the contact you would get on the rest as well.
> 
> My vanes i use are the bohning X vane 1.5 (3grains) light weight and very low profile.


I agree ^^^^

I use RW helical about 1/4" in on my bitz with 1.75" vanes keeping the base inline with the center of the shaft. I tune 1/8"-1/4" nock high at five yards and don't have any issues with contact. I wouldn't use spin wings.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

with a helical clamp, you can actually set the fletching with no offset. the helical in the body of the fletching, will produce plenty of spin.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

For the aerovane III you don't need anything but straight if your close to 280 fps.
1 degree offset if your something like 210-260
2 degrees for 160-210.
Spin wings I normally run 1 degree offset. Use a regular straight jig set up for 1degree (straight may also work better for long range).
Now instead of using the jig to fletch, simply use the jig as a guide to draw a line on your arrows. Use the line to attach your tape.
I have gone to just making lines with zero offset, but touching the front of the line with the left edge of the tape, and the back of the line with the right side of the tape.
You will want a heavier arrow with the spin wings, as at long range you can have too much drag (if so set them in the arrow straight)
The Aerovane III won't need as much arrow, as it has very little drag (much more efficient)


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> with a helical clamp, you can actually set the fletching with no offset. the helical in the body of the fletching, will produce plenty of spin.


That's kinda what I meant by keeping the base in line with the center of the shaft. There's no need to offset with a helical.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sort of in with everyone. Still, Nanos are the last arrows I'd use for 3D.

Shot all archery venues with 2 degrees offset for years and never worried about accuracy. This with Mini Blazers through 4" vanes.

A straight clamp can give straight to offset. Like ron noted, a helical clamp is set straight dead, there is no offsetting a helical clamp. You set it so the fletching seats and that's it. Short vanes do not give the full effect of helical. Longer vanes do.

I spoke with Bitzenburger sometime back. They will make custom clamps. Call and ask for details/requirements.
I've also spoke with other companies about helical clamps. 11 degrees is tops and setting the jig so full contact is made with the vane gives 11 degrees. Any more helical would require other means of fletching.... 

Here's a 1 3/4" set with a helical clamp and a 4". With any of the shorter vanes I use two vanes in the clamp, this to keep the clamp from tipping and helps seat the vane to be glued. Don't get them mixed up


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Sonny, with so much helical, how do you deal with the vane hitting the rest? At least, the glue base bumps over the rest. Even if you sight in with the interference, just any slight difference between arrows would result in a stray from your group. Or, am I wrong? I believe I've had this issue, where I trimmed some glue from a consistent stray arrow and turned it into a shooter.

And by the way guys, this is the info I've been hoping for.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

For FITA and like - long ranges - you can not go more then 2 degree offset, there will be too much drag, I have tried 3 degree once and my arrows dropped in front of 90 meters in the sand...I am doing 1.5 degree helicals with a modded clamp. 
The bitz helical clamps have that offset already built in eventually you could add maybe 0.5 degree to the clamp at that is a most...
On the new nano XR's there is a white printed line, adjust the helical clamp to just barely touch the left side of the line (that white line have already a slight angle pointing to Right looking from the back if you look closely) at the nock end of the vane and to barely touch the other side of the line at the other end and that is the max offset I would go. Instead of killing the arrow with big fletching offset you better do a precise weight distribution = higher FOC and a well spine balanced length.
I use spring steel launcher blades and the 2" helical vanes clearing the fletching with almost ZERO nock height.
Do a spine indexing, meaning put the stiffer side on top, so when the arrow start moving it will be a nose dive (and no L or R bending = center shot is perfect) and the tail (fletching) will have a jump over the resting point....this way you have locked the freedom of motion to vertical plane only....
Long range shooting...helical to go


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

What are you seeing that is telling you your aerovane a aren't spinning enough?
How fast are your arrows leaving the bow?


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

bigHUN said:


> For FITA and like - long ranges - you can not go more then 2 degree offset, there will be too much drag, I have tried 3 degree once and my arrows dropped in front of 90 meters in the sand...I am doing 1.5 degree helicals with a modded clamp.
> The bitz helical clamps have that offset already built in eventually you could add maybe 0.5 degree to the clamp at that is a most...
> On the new nano XR's there is a white printed line, adjust the helical clamp to just barely touch the left side of the line (that white line have already a slight angle pointing to Right looking from the back if you look closely) at the nock end of the vane and to barely touch the other side of the line at the other end and that is the max offset I would go. *Instead of killing the arrow with big fletching offset you better do a precise weight distribution = higher FOC and a well spine balanced length.*
> I use spring steel launcher blades and the 2" helical vanes clearing the fletching with almost ZERO nock height.
> Do a spine indexing, meaning put the stiffer side on top, so when the arrow start moving it will be a nose dive (and no L or R bending = center shot is perfect) and the fletching will have a jump over the resting point....this way you have locked the freedom of motion to vertical plane only....


Spot on.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

The aerovane vanes are very heavy for arrows you want to shoot long distance....you can not balance out the FOC on nano XR's to keep the proper spine range


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kyudo Novice said:


> Sonny, with so much helical, how do you deal with the vane hitting the rest? At least, the glue base bumps over the rest. Even if you sight in with the interference, just any slight difference between arrows would result in a stray from your group. Or, am I wrong? I believe I've had this issue, where I trimmed some glue from a consistent stray arrow and turned it into a shooter.
> 
> And by the way guys, this is the info I've been hoping for.


I use a drop rest  And then I use a thicker arrow, .355" diameter, and clearance with adjustable prongs, like a QuikTune 3000, is possible with shorter vanes set helical.

I guess Nanos are the in thing for Field or Outdoors. I've used CXLs, HTAs and Muddy Virtues for everything. Arrow set up correctly and accuracy can be had. Yep. My 3D arrows have a FOC of 6.04% and dang accurate out to my ASA max distance of 40 yards. My Field arrows had something of 12% FOC. 

I don't believe in the drag, loss of speed down range helical vanes give, not for known distance like Field and Outdoor, not even 3D. You're sighted in for a distance you're sighted in. Known distance you should be dead on. Unknown, it's you guessing right


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

bigHUN said:


> The aerovane vanes are very heavy for arrows you want to shoot long distance....you can not balance out the FOC on nano XR's to keep the proper spine range


They are only 1.3 grains heavier than an AAE MAX 2.0
Less than 4 grains total for the arrow.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Could you use something like a limb driver rest and put a lizard tongue on the rest. Would this give you support for your arrow during the firing cycle and then drop out of the way before the fletching got to the rest.

If something like this would work then you could fletch with as much off set or helical that you wanted.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Mahly said:


> They are only 1.3 grains heavier than an AAE MAX 2.0
> Less than 4 grains total for the arrow.


I use AAE MAX Plastifletch 2.0 on some of my nano's, got some aerovane3's and measure them and the total weight for 3 in a set is heavier for as one vane, meaning that is almost as heavy as 1" of a carbon, that much of an off-spine can (and will) create about 4" offset @ 70 meters, automatically kicking the arrow off the group out of gold.....I have a proof that 4 grains of weight difference (1/2" from the length) can create problems in grouping @ 70 and even more @ 90


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I would think the increase in aerodynamic efficiency would compensate for that offset.
Reportedly (though you must consider the source) you can get away with much less FOC with the AV III.

Of course, this requires an arrow going fast enough to make use of the AV III. The OP mentioned 3-D, which one would assume your over the 280fps mark that makes the AV III work. Less than that, and you need to start putting on offset, reducing if not eliminating any advantage they have.
Not saying they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but worth a try.
They are supposed to be amazing in cross winds.
I haven't had a chance to shoot them on my smaller arrows at long distances yet, but they actually work pretty well on my fat arrows at 40 yards.

I think there is some room for a little more research on them. The high speed rotation with straight fletching, would seem ideal for long range 3-D and field shooting.

If ALL your looking for is more rotating, try the Turbonock T3. It's just the nock version of the turbonock (vs the nock and vane all in one thingy) a helical nock that gives instant spin to the arrow.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

bigHUN said:


> I use AAE MAX Plastifletch 2.0 on some of my nano's, got some aerovane3's and measure them and the total weight for 3 in a set is heavier for as one vane, meaning that is almost as heavy as 1" of a carbon, that much of an off-spine can (and will) create about 4" offset @ 70 meters, automatically kicking the arrow off the group out of gold.....I have a proof that 4 grains of weight difference (1/2" from the length) can create problems in grouping @ 70 and even more @ 90


I think you're confusing grouping with the effect of making a change on one arrow. Maybe the 4 gr difference in weight will cause an arrow to hit in a different spot (I think you'd have to be a super archer to detect that small a weight change) but I'd have to assume that you'd make the change to all of your arrows. Now your group may have shifted but the size of the group should be the same.
I think most of these small differences in the way an arrow is fletched might show up using a Hooter Shooter but I think too many archers are working at fine changes to their set up, both bow and arrow, which are outweighed by their physical ability to shoot small enough groups to see the effect of these changes. In the Navy we used to say "You're working below the level of the grass(noise)" which in this case would be the ability of the archer himself.
Joe B.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

zenarch said:


> I think you're confusing grouping with the effect of making a change on one arrow. Maybe the 4 gr difference in weight will cause an arrow to hit in a different spot (I think you'd have to be a super archer to detect that small a weight change) but I'd have to assume that you'd make the change to all of your arrows. Now your group may have shifted but the size of the group should be the same.
> I think most of these small differences in the way an arrow is fletched might show up using a Hooter Shooter but I think too many archers are working at fine changes to their set up, both bow and arrow, which are outweighed by their physical ability to shoot small enough groups to see the effect of these changes. In the Navy we used to say "You're working below the level of the grass(noise)" which in this case would be the ability of the archer himself.
> Joe B.


Joe, its fine what you are saying, but I know that - for my setup - the nano 450's grouping tighter then the nano 410....same point and same fletching, the stiffness is the different....and I did spine tuned both dozens to the given DW on the hootershooter. 
Not with machine and not by hand I am not able to place six 410's in a ten ring @ 70 but YES I can do all six the 450's....why? because of the FOC to spine ratio is different!!!
The AAE MAX Plastifletch vane is 3.5 grains, 3x3.5=10.5 grain plus the glue
The aerovane 3 vane is 5.4 grains, 3x5.4=16.2 grain plus the glue
We would move the weight of 5.7 grains out from the tip to the rear of the arrow, it is not only moving the FOC....you move the node points how oscillate....
Anyway you are free to try it out and prove it to yourself, this is my experience. I am not interested to shoot arrows for fun I want to win a medal, but if the other guy is doing a better homework this not gonna happen...
OP was asking what or how to doo with nano's this is an indication to me we are not talking average subject but let see where are the tricks.
All is coming back how far you want to reach? For everyday - recreational use YES the boundaries are more friendly  :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Mahly said:


> They are only 1.3 grains heavier than an AAE MAX 2.0
> Less than 4 grains total for the arrow.


Big fan of the AV3 - they were awesome on my pro tours. Sorry, but the weight issue is a non-issue. These vanes solve all the issues the OP has, IMO.


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Wow! I see now, how in depth you top shooters are going with arrow design. It is far beyond what I had imagined, even though I was aware of these details and possible mods. I had been weighing my arrows previously and was quite surprised that I needed them to within 1 grain total weight...and it tested out true that three matched weight arrows were tighter than the other three that were barely outside the tolerance.

Your words are not wasted here. I will go to detail as you describe and some others who read this will too.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

zenarch said:


> I think you're confusing grouping with the effect of making a change on one arrow. Maybe the 4 gr difference in weight will cause an arrow to hit in a different spot (I think you'd have to be a super archer to detect that small a weight change) but I'd have to assume that you'd make the change to all of your arrows. Now your group may have shifted but the size of the group should be the same.
> I think most of these small differences in the way an arrow is fletched might show up using a Hooter Shooter but I think too many archers are working at fine changes to their set up, both bow and arrow, which are outweighed by their physical ability to shoot small enough groups to see the effect of these changes. In the Navy we used to say "You're working below the level of the grass(noise)" which in this case would be the ability of the archer himself.
> Joe B.


I agree with this. I've punched holes through my vanes creating more drag on one vane, even ripped half of a vane off, and they still group with the others. And yes I mean sub-2" groups at 60 yds.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Don't take me wrong with aerovanes (and firenock) I am using Dorge's jig what by all means is the best I have seen so far. I am just a fan of a biggest possible FOC on my arrows. Why? Because fits my style. Your game may be different and I can live with that.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

funny that people think you need a drop away for spin wings. spin wings came to use on compounds from the Olympic recurve crowd.....no drop aways there.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

They make use of archers paradox where modern compounds don't need or use it.
On a compound, a drop away is best with spin wings.


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## Silverstar723 (Apr 30, 2012)

Ok I'll be the crazy one who says he uses 7 degrees left helical out of my pro comp on my 27 series alluminum arrows for indoors yes I was right I saying 7 degrees I use a hamskea drop away rest and the arrow tunes very well set dead level my arrows are 29.75 inches long and 300 grains In the front. Now with that all said this may not be the setup for everyone and most think I'm crazy but it works for me now on my carbon ones I use a 3 degree left helical on an aae max vane very small and low profile vane and I cut those at 27.5" and 120 in the tip both are shot from the same bow at 58 lbs with good success


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Explain 7 degree helical.....


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## Silverstar723 (Apr 30, 2012)

it allows me the Benefit of a high spin rate at 20 yards and very stable flight along with a heavy tip in my arrow allowing for greater stabilization


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Silverstar723 said:


> it allows me the Benefit of a high spin rate at 20 yards and very stable flight along with a heavy tip in my arrow allowing for greater stabilization


Not what I asked. Explain how you get 7 degrees of helical. Some jigs give 3 degrees of helical and others 11 degrees.


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## Silverstar723 (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh sorry I use a last chance vane master pro and the one I have has a 7 degree helical mark that allows me to lay down fetching a with that helical perfectly and I use the AAE plastifletch 4.0


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just looked it up.

"The Vane Master Pro comes in a protective plastic case with a foam liner. The machined jig allows for precision fletching of your arrow shafts and can fletch both 3 and 4 vane shafts. The jig also allows for *0 to 5 degree helical left or right* and this is done by placing a pin in the desired degree of helical. The receiver that holds the nock end of the arrow is adjustable allowing you to set your vane near the nock or as far as 1 or more inches down from the nock."


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## Silverstar723 (Apr 30, 2012)

There was a limited run of 7degree helical that they discontinued a few people have them and if remove the pin and align the bottom of the jig with the bottom of the 5 degree hole than you will get the 7 degrees of helical


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## Silverstar723 (Apr 30, 2012)

That's the back of the 7 degree helical on Easton x27


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Am I better off trying to increase my FOC by choosing a lighter (less stiff) SHORTER arrow, light fletching and light to moderately heavy point...or by going with a heavier (more stiff) LONGER, light fletching and heavy point? see my Podium specs in my signature.

It seems to me that a heavier arrow will be slower to begin spinning and will consume more energy to maintain spin, so it might arc faster. Being heavier, it might resist windage, but it will also be larger diameter by a couple thousandths. I simply don't know what to predict.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Keep in mind that fletching shape and stiffness also play a roll in rotation. Shield shaped fletching can act like a longer fletch due to slightly increased drag without increased weight.
Personally I'd go with some Elivanes or Gaspro. They are lower profile, stiffer and more durable then Spinwings without being heavier.

Given the choice on arrows I will always go with the lightest shaft that will work.

-Grant


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

I just thought I would throw this in here.
The product I make instantly spins the arrow mechanically using a small amount of energy from the bow string.
It greatly reduces archers paradox. also you can reduce the size fletching you use since all you need is enough fletching to keep the arrow spinning , not make it spin. this allows for less speed loss and trajectory improvements downrange.




The nock used in the video is our T-4 which works with fletching. We make only a right rotation.
We also make nocks with vanes that require no additional fletching. but need a whisker biscuit or a fallaway rest

.
Alan Teitel is an emmy award winning videographer, not an archer.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Here is the video of our vaned turbonocks.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

It seems that no one brought up the tuning issue. Done properly, a shooter can clear a lot of fletching, and a lot of offset/helical off of a blade rest. Take the time to get the rest setup right.... it will be much more forgiving in the long run and open up lots of possibilities on fletching.


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## D.B.Cooper (Feb 7, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> Done properly, a shooter can clear a lot of fletching, and a lot of offset/helical off of a blade rest.


Tony, I'd love to hear a bit more about this.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> It seems that no one brought up the tuning issue. Done properly, a shooter can clear a lot of fletching, and a lot of offset/helical off of a blade rest. Take the time to get the rest setup right.... it will be much more forgiving in the long run and open up lots of possibilities on fletching.





D.B.Cooper said:


> Tony, I'd love to hear a bit more about this.


Yes, Tony, a little information would/may go a long ways for lots of people using blade rests. I don't know how many people came to the shop with broken blades, but a bunch. Wrong thickness of blade, rest set wrong, bow setup wrong.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

D.B.Cooper said:


> Tony, I'd love to hear a bit more about this.


There is no magic and I guess I do it by "feel" (no exact process... just examine and adjust).

Basically, you've got to get the blade stiffness (combination of thickness and angle) right so that it clears.... this is a combo of nock travel and bending of the blade.

Spray powder is your friend. You've got to learn to read the tracks in the powder and adjust so that the blade is clear as the fletchings pass over it.


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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

Was hoping to hear some different methods.....heres mine
-start blade around 35deg and spend a few days group tuning and trusting the results
-spray powder the arrow and check the tracks
-start flattening the blade out (maintain reasonable nock height) until tracks stop just before fletching
I can see where you may need to play with blade thickness, but I havent yet.....imo mostly because I usually have a close starting point
-go back and spend more days group tuning and verify results are as good or better than before
-evaluate forgiveness over time. Stay objective and trust your gut on the results

I agree, it does become a feel thing.....but the powder will tell you if you're clearing
....and I have found times where theres minor contact, and still get optimal, forgiving results

maybe someone has a more systematic approach?


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

I always do a bareshaft paper tune first before getting into fletching and broadheads etc. It can save time down the road . I also paper shoot by hand not a machine. I have been experimenting with different methods . finger tab, glove, and a strap release. The strap gives me the cleanest releases on a consistent basis.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I started using a hamskea drop away love it can shoot anything no contact at all


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## Kyudo Novice (Sep 9, 2014)

Well, it's bee a year and a half since I first started this thread on "Best rotational Fletching".
Done some experimenting and found the bigHUN had it down. If my bow is tuned well and bare shafting pretty good, nice holes in paper and tuned properly, and my grip is working, I can get away with the 1.5" Bohning X vanes. If I don't keep her tuned all the time, I'm better off with slightly longer X vanes. Been shooting 4 degrees offset, and getting a nice spin. The drop compared to larger vanes (and specially shaped vanes for generating extra fast spin) is a few inches less at 70 meters. 

3-4 degrees offset with a small simple vane resembling Bohning X Vanes 1.5" - 2" is just right for accuracy at distance for a fairly good archer with properly tuned gear.


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