# Where do you aim from a tree stand? High or low?



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Say you are 20 ft. up in a tree and have about a 25 or 30 yd shot at a big buck. Do you aim up high at the spine area or down low at the heart and chest cavity? Do you put the pin right in the lung area? Thanks.


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

If the Deer is completely relaxed with no idea something is wrong I go direct for the double lung shot. If it is at all nervous I will aim a little low in case it tries to jump the string.


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## Snood Slapper (Jul 27, 2004)

I have never shot from a treestand, but I am fixing to use one this year. I hope someone can answer this as well, but this is how I understand it just from using math (Pythagorean Theorem). 

If you know you have a 25 or 30 yard shot from the base of the tree, you use the same pin that you would use if you were on the ground. 

If you rangefind from the vantage of your treestand, that is approximately 7 yards up, and you get a 30 yard reading, you are actually loose about 1 yard, so I would think you would use the same pin. 

Of course, this doesn't factor in string jump or duck.

However, why then would they have pendulum sights if there isn't that much difference. 

One of you experienced tree dwellers please advise. This may be a case of *too much book learnin'* for me.


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

Aim the same as you would off the ground. Pendulums are for those of us who are lousy at judging distance. I missed deer after deer years ago with fixed pins and finally went to a pendulem sight, I have not missed but one deer since and I missed it by thing it was too far for the pendulum and used a fixed pin instead. Shot over it's back


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## Snood Slapper (Jul 27, 2004)

rembrant, I found a good thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30917&highlight=shooting+stand


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## Dthbyhoyt (Dec 4, 2004)

I aim a little low , the deer here in NC are very jumping thanks to the great law that allows people to run deer with dogs , wish they would outlaw that JMO


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## powderfinger (Feb 24, 2005)

I aim for the exit hole. Which usually midway up on the side of the animal facing you, depending on the terrain.


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## dodgetech (Nov 16, 2003)

*aim*

i always aim dead on just like on the ground but if he comes in closer always be your own pendelum and bend at the waist..also good advise as stated above aim for the exit hole....were that arrows gonna exit is were you wanna aim...


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Good advice. I've not shot a bow from a tree stand but with the season coming up I might have the oppurtunity to so. Anyway, I was hoping that "right on" would be the best advice. I watch the archery hunting shows on OLN and the Outdoor Channel and it seems everytime the arrow is released the deer does the squat thing and takes off, usually too late. Saw one the other day and the guy had a Luminock on his arrow and it was super. Looked like a flashlight going toward that deer. When he got out of the tree and went for the deer you could see that light sticking up about 100 yds away. Out of sight!


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

I always aim for the lowest possible spot in the vitals. When the deer does "jump the string" (i.e. squatting before take off), then the arrow hits perfectly. In the rare instance, the deer doesn't jump the string, I still have a nice shot. 

I heavily recommend shooting a bunch of arrows at a target from your treestand at the height you will be hunting before the season starts. This will make you comfortable with the operation of the stand, how you move your equipment up and down, how you situate yourself and equipment in the stand and how to shoot from your stand.


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

The problem I have had holding low on a relaxed deer is that I hit low as the deer did not drop at all. I ended up with a one lung passthrough due to the sharp downward angle and the deer not dropping. It made for the hardest tracking job and the longest drag ever for me.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

When rangefinding from a treestand the distance from the base of your tree to the animal is normally a yard or 2 closer than what your range finder is telling you. The rangefinder is measuring the hypotenuse of a triangle. It is usually longer than your base of tree to target distance unless your target is extremely uphill from your vantage point. The farhter downhill your subject stands from your tree the more distance you need to subtract from that rangefinder reading. A way to get around this bogus reading is to range a tree at the same level as your eye. This will subtact the extra yardage you get when ranging down to your target.

Aiming low ( 1" or 2) is good advice even when deer seem to be relaxed. I have seen relaxed feeding deer go down at the release of the shot. When a deer is alert it gets very tricky. Here shot distance is a key factor. 

An animal that is 15 yards or closer will have less time to duck your arrow. At 20-30 they can move down a considerable distance before that arrow arrives.

On the other hand wind conditions and the noise level of the woods are also key factors. An alert animal at longer distances may not react to the sound of your shot as would an animal in close proximity, that could hear it better.

Shots aimed for the middle of the lungs will most often hit high. Better to aim a little low on all shots. Yea shooting arrows at whitetails is tricky.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

I aim dead on my "spot" using my pendulum sight


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## Snood Slapper (Jul 27, 2004)

Doc said:


> I always aim for the lowest possible spot in the vitals. When the deer does "jump the string" (i.e. squatting before take off), then the arrow hits perfectly. In the rare instance, the deer doesn't jump the string, I still have a nice shot.
> 
> I heavily recommend shooting a bunch of arrows at a target from your treestand at the height you will be hunting before the season starts. This will make you comfortable with the operation of the stand, how you move your equipment up and down, how you situate yourself and equipment in the stand and how to shoot from your stand.


Hopefully my stand will get here this week so I can take it to the range. I finally settled on one so that I would have ample time to practice before season. My range has about 50+ acres with 3d trails and targets, and 3 seperate clearings with oaks and regular targets so I can practice with my stand. Its a great place for $50 per year.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

I aim for both lungs if at all possible.

Most high hits are from not bending at the waist when making the shot.

The *MAIN * thing to remember shooting from a treestand is *TO BEND AT THE WAIST.*


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## Chance (Jan 9, 2005)

I aim dead on but at very close distances you want to aim lower.


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## RDH (Oct 4, 2002)

*I heavily recommend shooting a bunch of arrows at a target from your treestand at the height you will be hunting before the season starts.*

Excellent advise.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

rembrandt said:


> Say you are 20 ft. up in a tree and have about a 25 or 30 yd shot at a big buck. Do you aim up high at the spine area or down low at the heart and chest cavity? Do you put the pin right in the lung area? Thanks.


First, I'm assuming that you are using a fixed pin sight. If you use a pendulum sight you won't have to worry about anything except aiming at the lower 1/3 of the chest cavity. Heart or double lung is the way to go. Now after saying that for the pendulum lets look at fixed pins. I've been hunting for many years and have used both fixed pins and pendulums. The very first thing you have to consider with fixed pins is paralax error. Your arrow does not travel the same path that you look at when you shoot a bow. When you look through your peep and align your sights your line of view is several inches higher than your arrow flight. Your arrow flight (trajectory) meets your line of sight at the point where your sight pin is sighted in for. Your line of sight will match each of your sight pins for each distance. The reason I bring this up is that if you sight your bow in for 20 yards---- up too 20 yards your arrow will hit high but will be right on at 20 yards. Depending on the speed of your bow it could be 4 inches high at 10 yards. Now, why is that important? If you're 20 feet high in a tree and a deer is at 10 yards and you aim at the lung area you will hit high. If the deer is at 20 yards you will hit right on. Now lets go on to the other problem of the deer being 3D. I mean--- at ground level the target lung/heart area of a deer may be 12 inches in depth. However, if you're at 20 feet high in a tree and looking down at the deer from 20 feet high the target area can be reduced to 4 inches because of the acute angle looking down. Example---- if you have a bow sight in at 20 yards-- you are 20 feet high--- a deer at 10 yards--- if you have a 4 inch target and your arrow goes 4 iches high because of paralax error-- you just got a bad shot or a miss. Bottom line is that you only have to worry about this if the deer is a lesser distance than you have your bow sighted in for. If the deer is at the distance your pin is set for you won't have this problem. If the deer is a distance shorter than what your bow is sighted in for you'd better aim "LOW". :wink: Now add the last element to the problem--- deer don't stand still. A deer can drop a full body depth in .3 of a second. They are just like me and you when they start to jump and run they squat first. When you and I jump we squat firsts also---- The deer just do it really fast. Thats the reason you should aim at the lower 1/3 of the deers chest. Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth. :wink:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> I aim dead on my "spot" using my pendulum sight



I guess we both cheat---- don't we!! :teeth: :wink: I'm now on my second Keller pendulum. :thumbs_up


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

> Your arrow does not travel the same path that you look at when you shoot a bow. When you look through your peep and align your sights your line of view is several inches higher than your arrow flight. Your arrow flight (trajectory) meets your line of sight at the point where your sight pin is sighted in for.


 Yes but your arrow crosses your line of sight twice. The arrow starts out traveling beneath your line of sight and depending on your setup will cross for the 1st time somewhere between 6-10 yards. After the 1st cross the arrow is now traveling above your line of sight and usually peaks at about 15-16 yards, where it it will then start to drop and meet your line of sight for the 2nd time at 20 yards. (using 20 yard pin) If you were to shoot your bow at an object 3-4 yards away you would have to aim high to hit your mark.


> Depending on the speed of your bow it could be 4 inches high at 10 yards. Now, why is that important? If you're 20 feet high in a tree and a deer is at 10 yards and you aim at the lung area you will hit high.


 Most bows shoot very close to dead on at 10 yards. Mine is dead on at 9, but all are dead on where the line of sight and line of flight cross for the first time. Usually between 6-10.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> Yes but your arrow crosses your line of sight twice. The arrow starts out traveling beneath your line of sight and depending on your setup will cross for the 1st time somewhere between 6-10 yards. After the 1st cross the arrow is now traveling above your line of sight and usually peaks at about 15-16 yards, where it it will then start to drop and meet your line of sight for the 2nd time at 20 yards. (using 20 yard pin) If you were to shoot your bow at an object 3-4 yards away you would have to aim high to hit your mark. Most bows shoot very close to dead on at 10 yards. Mine is dead on at 9, but all are dead on where the line of sight and line of flight cross for the first time. Usually between 6-10.
> 
> HUNT SAFE !!! . . .




Yeah--- all of what you say about trajectory is true. I shot expert every year for the 20 years I was in the USMC.  I probably assumed too much when I thought the sight pin and the arrow hit the mark the first time it went through the line of sight. Anyway, my bad if I'm wrong but I know one thing for sure---- if you're in an elevated position and the deer is close--- you'd better aim low.  Oh yeah, I do like you picture.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

stehawk said:


> Yeah--- all of what you say about trajectory is true. I shot expert every year for the 20 years I was in the USMC.  I probably assumed too much when I thought the sight pin and the arrow hit the mark the first time it went through the line of sight. Anyway, my bad if I'm wrong but I know one thing for sure---- if you're in an elevated position and the deer is close--- you'd better aim low.  Oh yeah, I do like you picture.


As you can see from my previous posts i agree with you on aiming low on almost all shots; some lower than others.

In your 10 yard shot from a treestand, yes the tendancy is to shoot high like you said, but more from shooting from above your target than from your bow shooting high at that distance.

All in all I agree with your posts and your point of aiming low.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## rcd567 (Apr 14, 2004)

Most of the deer I've taken from a tree stand average 12 yard shots. You'd better aim low at that angle. At 20 - 30 yards, I'd aim at the heart, or better yet, the bottom 3rd of the deer's chest. If he/she reacts to the noise of the shot, you'll still get a nice double lung hit. :wink: 

I also suggest you get out there and practice from a tree stand with your broadheads of choice.


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## obiwankabaldi (Jun 2, 2003)

WIllie above gave you the answer. Aim just as if shooting from the ground. "BUT" bend at the waist. That is where most shooters go wrong and that is the science behind the pendulum sights. As you bend your shooting arm and anchor down to shoot from a tree stand, the angle between you eye and peep and sight pin changes. Thus you end up shooting high or low. Draw, bend at the waist to keep those angles the same as if you were on the ground and you will hit dead on. Try this and you will see.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

obiwankabaldi said:


> WIllie above gave you the answer. Aim just as if shooting from the ground. "BUT" bend at the waist. That is where most shooters go wrong and that is the science behind the pendulum sights. As you bend your shooting arm and anchor down to shoot from a tree stand, the angle between you eye and peep and sight pin changes. Thus you end up shooting high or low. Draw, bend at the waist to keep those angles the same as if you were on the ground and you will hit dead on. Try this and you will see.



You're right that bending at the waist helps but thats only talking about shooting form. You use the same form whether you use a fixed pin or a pendulum sight. It does not take into account that the depth of the target has decreased and it doesnt' take into account that the animal moves(squats down)-- it doesn't take into account the trajectory of your arrow--- bottom line is that you'd better aim low----- your aim point should at least be at the bottom 1/3 of the deers chest. I know alot of peole may disagee but at very close range (5-15 yards) I aim at the bottom of the deers chest ( 6 o'clock) and get middle of the chest double lung hits. At 20 ft high and the deer at 10 yards your double lung target area depth is only about 4 inches. If you aim at the center and hit 2 inches high or low-- you have a marginal hit. You may find the deer but you'll have to do some trailing. The vast majority of hunters shoot high at close range and the higher up you are the more you tend to shoot high. I don't care what everyone else does---- I aim low.


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## AJ008 (Nov 20, 2002)

When shooting up and down aim a little low, how much depends on your bow and the up/down degree of your shot along with distance...


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

rcd567 said:


> Most of the deer I've taken from a tree stand average 12 yard shots. You'd better aim low at that angle. At 20 - 30 yards, I'd aim at the heart, or better yet, the bottom 3rd of the deer's chest. If he/she reacts to the noise of the shot, you'll still get a nice double lung hit. :wink:
> 
> I also suggest you get out there and practice from a tree stand with your broadheads of choice.



Hey, that sounds good to me. :thumbs_up


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Skyhunter, could you please make another drawing with a bobcat at about 10 yards. I missed one twice last year right under my stand. Kept thinking I was shooting low. He never knew where I was. I will get him this year!


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

It seems that the farther shot I take from my 'tree' the less I have to aim low! but 20 yards or less....YOU BETTER AIM LOW or you will miss or hit so high you will never find the blood! :wink:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

MoNofletch said:


> It seems that the farther shot I take from my 'tree' the less I have to aim low! but 20 yards or less....YOU BETTER AIM LOW or you will miss or hit so high you will never find the blood! :wink:



Amen--- thats what I'm talking about!! :thumbs_up


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Durocab1 said:


> Skyhunter, could you please make another drawing with a bobcat at about 10 yards. I missed one twice last year right under my stand. Kept thinking I was shooting low. He never knew where I was. I will get him this year!


No drawing but you should be close to dead on or perhaps an inch or so high at 10 yards. Perhaps you were holding a bit too low anticipating a high hit. Try holding just a hair low, and get him this year.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## BowTudor (Oct 29, 2004)

Everyone says bent at the waist in a stand. I'm having trouble visualizing that. Couls someone explain what that looks like exactly?
Thanks


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

BowTudor said:


> Everyone says bent at the waist in a stand. I'm having trouble visualizing that. Couls someone explain what that looks like exactly?
> Thanks


Sure, when you get ready to shoot you'd pull the bow exactly like you do when you standing level at ground zero. Once you come to a normal shooting position with the bow drawn (standing upright and level) now bend at the waist until you arrive on your target but still in the exact same position as you were when you were standing upright. It gives you a better sight picture without creeping on your drawn and allows you to shoot in the same position as when you were on the ground. Nonetheless,practice shooting from an elevated position and you won't have any problems. :wink: Quite simple really!!


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## Keith @ Aim Low (Aug 26, 2004)

*Here is what I would do...*


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## tennman (Dec 2, 2003)

I aim low near the heart even if the deer's posture is relaxed. Have filmed my hunting partner shooting "relaxed" deer with a fast, quite bow at 20 yards and they still duck 3"-6". I use to aim for the lungs on relaxed deer but over the years had much more success aiming for the heart area at all times.


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## heavyarrow (Jun 21, 2003)

I aim exactly where I want to hit. Chalk another up for the pendulum crew. :thumbs_up :beer:


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## TnScott (Mar 2, 2003)

If the deer is a little nervous , I aim for the heart . If the deer is relaxed , I aim where I want the arrow to catch both lungs from any angle . :wink:


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## Misfire (Jun 12, 2004)

Durocab1 said:


> Skyhunter, could you please make another drawing with a bobcat at about 10 yards. I missed one twice last year right under my stand. Kept thinking I was shooting low. He never knew where I was. I will get him this year!



Yea, and if you have time I'd like a drawing of a coyote at 7yrds. I aimed too low and shot right under him.......


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## CardiacKid74 (Jan 18, 2005)

You have to take more variations than what you said. Is the animal broadside, faceing you or away, at an angle? All makes some diffrence. Is it skittish or relaxed and has no clue you are there. Ultimatly you want to aim for where the arrow will enter/pass thru/exit rather than just the entery point. It may just cut skin if you aim for his lower chest as you would if you were ground hunting so you need think of the entire arrows flight to try and hit both lungs or if the animal jumps some at leat hit one of the lungs or heart. JMO. You will eventually find your nitch. Once you get a deer with the bow in a tree you will try to replay that shot each time there-after.


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

No math need here, I pratice from heights since I hunt from them and I hold dead on!
Only exception is when within 8 yards I aim low since I only use one pin.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

CardiacKid74 said:


> You have to take more variations than what you said. Is the animal broadside, faceing you or away, at an angle? All makes some diffrence. Is it skittish or relaxed and has no clue you are there. Ultimatly you want to aim for where the arrow will enter/pass thru/exit rather than just the entery point. It may just cut skin if you aim for his lower chest as you would if you were ground hunting so you need think of the entire arrows flight to try and hit both lungs or if the animal jumps some at leat hit one of the lungs or heart. JMO. You will eventually find your nitch. Once you get a deer with the bow in a tree you will try to replay that shot each time there-after.



Hey CardiacKid74, sorry buddy but I disagree about variations in angle, ie. broadside, facing you  , or away. The only shots I take are broadside or quartering only. I never shoot when they are facing me or directly walking away. I seen alot deer killed like that but to me its just not a good angle--- I've seen more wonded and lost that way. Anyway, I still think that when the deer is 15 yards or less-- you'd better aim low.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

*Aiming low as short distance.*

I must be missing something here for I never do this. For anything less than 10 yards, I put my arrow high in the chest cavity so that it will exit low and behind the opposite shoulder. I do not like the idea of a small target, getting only one lung, and an exit through the sternum. Generally I take out both lungs and often the top of the heart aiming at a point higher than center on the body due to such a steep angle. BTW, I am typically only 20 feet in the air as well. I remotely buy the aiming low concept in the first place as I have never had a deer jump the string. I place the center of the pin right behind the shoulder nearing the center of the animals body and not once have I hit high due to an animal jumping the string. But, aiming low at shorter distances makes little sense to me.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> Say you are 20 ft. up in a tree and have about a 25 or 30 yd shot at a big buck. Do you aim up high at the spine area or down low at the heart and chest cavity? Do you put the pin right in the lung area? Thanks.


Not sure what your question is exactly? I try for both lungs (try to picture the exit hole as suggested above) but in order to hit where you am aiming you typically have to shoot low on the deer to adjust for the angle out of the tree. The closer the deer is to your stand...the lower you aim from the point you want to hit. If you hunt where the deer are pressured, you may want to even aim lower to counter the deer dropping upon release of the arrow.

Think of it this way. Typically I sight my bow in on the ground. Therefore my sights are set to counter the effect of gravity which pulls the arrow perpendicular to the shaft. Now move to the stand and shoot directly down. The effect of gravity is now pulling parallel with the arrow shaft and not perpendicular. Therefore you arrow will hit high!

A pendulum sight will take care of this for you and of course the faster the bow.....the less you adjust!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Aim from a stand exactly as you would aim from the ground. In other words, put your pin exactly where you wish to hit the animal; end of story. If you wish to hit the heart, then aim low (or place your pin low on the animal). If you want to double lung the animal, aim a bit higher. The effects of gravity and the shot distance is negligible in the grand scheme of things. For example, if you are 20 feet in tree and the deer is 30 yards from the base of your tree, the distance from hunter to animal is going to be a whopping 30.73 yards. Don't even buy this gravity nonsense. If, however, you wish to factor that in, I assume that will so incline your arrow to drop the additional 0.73 yards so that you still hit true. If you are shooting an animal within 40 yards, just put your pin where you wish to hit the animal. If you are inclined to aimlow for a potential string-jump, then by all means do so.

Now, I shoot a single pin set at 30 yards. On a 40 yard animal, I'll put the pin on the spine. On a 20 yard animal, I aim about 3 inches low of the center portion of the body. But, if I had fixed pins for exact yardage, I would place each pin exactly where I wished to hit the animal.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Aim from a stand exactly as you would aim from the ground. In other words, put your pin exactly where you wish to hit the animal; end of story. If you wish to hit the heart, then aim low (or place your pin low on the animal). If you want to double lung the animal, aim a bit higher. The effects of gravity and the shot distance is negligible in the grand scheme of things. For example, if you are 20 feet in tree and the deer is 30 yards from the base of your tree, the distance from hunter to animal is going to be a whopping 30.73 yards. Don't even buy this gravity nonsense. If, however, you wish to factor that in, I assume that will so incline your arrow to drop the additional 0.73 yards so that you still hit true. If you are shooting an animal within 40 yards, just put your pin where you wish to hit the animal. If you are inclined to aimlow for a potential string-jump, then by all means do so.
> 
> Now, I shoot a single pin set at 30 yards. On a 40 yard animal, I'll put the pin on the spine. On a 20 yard animal, I aim about 3 inches low of the center portion of the body. But, if I had fixed pins for exact yardage, I would place each pin exactly where I wished to hit the animal.


I agree at 30 yards its negligible....but at 10 or 15 yards I put my 20 yard pin at the bottom of the belly to hit double lung! If I aim right on then I spine the deer. In any case just practice the shot! I'm sure glad I do.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: If I have a deer 10 yards, I will generally aim dead on with my 30 yard pin and it will put my arrow in the animal slightly high of center, exiting low. I will do the same on anything within 10 yards. I realize most folks have fixed pins so if that is where the concept of aiming low comes in at short distance, then I understand. For example, with a 20 yard pin, I can see aiming 2 inches low on the animal so that you still hit center. I can pretty much do the same with my single 30 yard pin if I wish to do so. I could very well be misunderstanding folks that opt to try to hit the animal low at very short distances. I opt to hit the animal a bit higher, exiting low. PS

In other words, I like a bigger target that allows me to do severe damage to the vitals. I don't like the thought of hitting the animal low, getting only one lung and potentially missing the heart due to a steep angle.

BTW Rudy, I understand what you are saying. But, do you really have to aim 5 inches low with your 20 to double lung the animal? That seems mighty extreme. Like I have stated. Even with a 30 yard pin I can put my pin nearly dead on at 10 yards and whack away.


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## Live4hunting (Dec 6, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Aim from a stand exactly as you would aim from the ground.


I have to agree with Poison here. From a 20 foot adavantage point at a 30 yard target the flight path is a little more than 30.5 yards. How many adjust for a diferance in yardage like that. I know some 3Ders that adjust for one yard but most hunter select 5 yards increments. 

I am unsure of my ability to judge distance over my comfortable 20 yard shot so I use my range finder on trees at eye level. My shot is determined where the arrow will do the most damage on a pass through. That to me is the lower 2/3 of the chest cavity so I aim between the 1/3 and 2/3 point allowing for that rare instance of string jump. But I have never had a deer jump a string bast 20 yards. I feel very confident on any broadside shot from my elevated platforms inside a 40 yard range. But I hate and will not take those shots directly away.

But if you plan on hunting from an elevated platform it would be best to practice from the same height and shot at the same distance that you feel confident in shooting at. I would recomend shooting at a 3D targert so you can see at that distance and angle what organs your arrow will pass through.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: If I have a deer 10 yards, I will generally aim dead on with my 30 yard pin and it will put my arrow in the animal slightly high of center, exiting low. I will do the same on anything within 10 yards. I realize most folks have fixed pins so if that is where the concept of aiming low comes in at short distance, then I understand. For example, with a 20 yard pin, I can see aiming 2 inches low on the animal so that you still hit center. I can pretty much do the same with my single 30 yard pin if I wish to do so. I could very well be misunderstanding folks that opt to try to hit the animal low at very short distances. I opt to hit the animal a bit higher, exiting low. PS
> 
> In other words, I like a bigger target that allows me to do severe damage to the vitals. I don't like the thought of hitting the animal low, getting only one lung and potentially missing the heart due to a steep angle.
> 
> BTW Rudy, I understand what you are saying. But, do you really have to aim 5 inches low with your 20 to double lung the animal? That seems mighty extreme. Like I have stated. Even with a 30 yard pin I can put my pin nearly dead on at 10 yards and whack away.


PoisonSnake! I probably just miss understood you. I use fixed pins therefore if I placed my 30 yard pin dead center at 30 yards then I am right on. If I would place my 30 yard pin dead center at 10 yards or less from a tree.....I would shoot over its back. If I put my 20 yard pin dead center at 10 yards or less....I hit very high if not a spine. That is why I have to aim low when its in close. I practice this type of shooting for atleast 1 month prior to the start of season and thats just how my bow shoots. I'm only shooting about 250 fps so maybe thats the difference!

Both deer I shot last year were at 7 yards and 3 yards....both double lungers using this techique. I'm sure everone is different but this is just my experience. :smile:


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

PoisonSnake said:


> I must be missing something here for I never do this. For anything less than 10 yards, I put my arrow high in the chest cavity so that it will exit low and behind the opposite shoulder. I do not like the idea of a small target, getting only one lung, and an exit through the sternum. Generally I take out both lungs and often the top of the heart aiming at a point higher than center on the body due to such a steep angle. BTW, I am typically only 20 feet in the air as well. I remotely buy the aiming low concept in the first place as I have never had a deer jump the string. I place the center of the pin right behind the shoulder nearing the center of the animals body and not once have I hit high due to an animal jumping the string. But, aiming low at shorter distances makes little sense to me.


I agree 110%...

Always aim for your EXIT hole..

Bend at the waist and aim where you want to hit..


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: I understand what you are stating full well. My bow is set up so that I can pretty well aim dead on as to where I want to hit and be fine between 0 and 30 yards give or take a couple inches. I will place the pin a little low of where I wish to hit the animal at short distances (i.e, 1.5" low at 20 and 10 yards, respectively), which in my preference, is high in the ribcage at distances less than 10 yards. Otherwise, I wish to hit that animal square in the chest. PS


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Here...shooting for an off leg exit..


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: I understand what you are stating full well. My bow is set up so that I can pretty well aim dead on as to where I want to hit and be fine between 0 and 30 yards give or take a couple inches. I will place the pin a little low of where I wish to hit the animal at short distances (i.e, 1.5" low at 20 and 10 yards, respectively), which in my preference, is high in the ribcage at distances less than 10 yards. Otherwise, I wish to hit that animal square in the chest. PS


Must be nice to be able to use one pin, that way you don't have to decide which one to use like me! Man that thing must be shoot'n fast if your only off by 1.5". Sounds like a great setup you have! :smile:


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

willie said:


> Here...shooting for an off leg exit..


Nice pictures Willie. Now for example...the 3rd picture looks like a steep angle. With my setup I would have to place my 20 yard pin at the bottom of the tummy. Remember at that angle it is not 5" difference....only a couple!

Thanks for the nice illustration.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

```
Good advice. I've not shot a bow from a tree stand but with the season coming up I might have the oppurtunity to so.
```

You really should get up a tree and shoot with all your hunting clothes on, at a target before the season gets here.

If you don't pratice you won't know about bending at the waist, and chances are you won't when a deer comes in. It takes some pratice to make that bend at the waist thing happen when it is supposed to. 

PS if you don't bend at the waist from a tree no tellin where your arrow might go.


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## Popapi (Jul 19, 2004)

Durocab1 said:


> Skyhunter, could you please make another drawing with a bobcat at about 10 yards. I missed one twice last year right under my stand. Kept thinking I was shooting low. He never knew where I was. I will get him this year!


So True


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: Not terribly fast at 283fps. But, it is nice to not have to worry a whole heck of a lot between 0 and 30 yards. For example, to shoot just like the photos that Willie posted (nice post Willie), I will aim dead center on the animal at very short range and enter the animal a bit high so that it will exit low. Then, at 20 to 30 yards, I pretty much aim dead on and slightly lower at 20 yards (maybe 2 inches). At 40 yards, I put the pin right on the spine and it will drop pretty much center lungs. Like you, I used to shoot 3 pins with a slower setup. I really like the single pin idea with a bit more speed. PS

Bees: I can tell you where my arrows usually go. PS


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

Bees said:


> ```
> Good advice. I've not shot a bow from a tree stand but with the season coming up I might have the oppurtunity to so.
> ```
> 
> ...


Excellent point Bees. If you don't bend, I here your draw length increases and no telling where the arrow might go.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

I think you just need to get up in the tree and practice to see were you hit. In my experience 15- 25 yards is about the same as on the ground(when 20-25 foot up). But when you get 5-15 yards you have to aim low.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

BTW fellows. Typically, unless it is a good deer, I don't shoot at them anymore at distances of 10 or less yards. I will throw rocks or acorns at them, however. I have only been successful 2 or 3 times as they will generally jump my throw. A watch doesn't fly quite as good as an acorn so don't try that one either. Furthermore, on a small buck, you always risk the chance of throwing a ringer with your watch.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> BTW fellows. Typically, unless it is a good deer, I don't shoot at them anymore at distances of 10 or less yards. I will throw rocks or acorns at them, however. I have only been successful 2 or 3 times as they will generally jump my throw. A watch doesn't fly quite as good as an acorn so don't try that one either. Furthermore, on a small buck, you always risk the chance of throwing a ringer with your watch.


Thats cool--- Loin cloth and dagger anyone?


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

A pencil drawing of me bowhunting...


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: If I have a deer 10 yards, I will generally aim dead on with my 30 yard pin and it will put my arrow in the animal slightly high of center, exiting low. I will do the same on anything within 10 yards. I realize most folks have fixed pins so if that is where the concept of aiming low comes in at short distance, then I understand. For example, with a 20 yard pin, I can see aiming 2 inches low on the animal so that you still hit center. I can pretty much do the same with my single 30 yard pin if I wish to do so. I could very well be misunderstanding folks that opt to try to hit the animal low at very short distances. I opt to hit the animal a bit higher, exiting low. PS
> 
> In other words, I like a bigger target that allows me to do severe damage to the vitals. I don't like the thought of hitting the animal low, getting only one lung and potentially missing the heart due to a steep angle.
> 
> BTW Rudy, I understand what you are saying. But, do you really have to aim 5 inches low with your 20 to double lung the animal? That seems mighty extreme. Like I have stated. Even with a 30 yard pin I can put my pin nearly dead on at 10 yards and whack away.




Please dont think that everyone is trying or wanting to hit the animal too low. We all agree that we want entry high on one side and exit low on the other. We're saying in order to do that our aim point is low to achieve the desired entry and exit. I perfer double lung shots with a low exit because I get massive blood trail with a short trailing period. Moreover, the aimpoint being low is only for short distance shots--- like 5-15 yards. Believe me it does work.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

willie said:


> A pencil drawing of me bowhunting...


What? No dagger! :teeth: :wink:


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

willie said:


> I aim for both lungs if at all possible.
> 
> Most high hits are from not bending at the waist when making the shot.
> 
> The *MAIN * thing to remember shooting from a treestand is *TO BEND AT THE WAIST.*



Willie, 
This is absolutely not true!!!! Most shots ranged and shot for what they ranged at are high because the arrow trajectory changes when shooting down and incline, because that arrow will maintain or possibly gain speed, depending on the angle. An arrow shot on level ground looses a little speed, while an arrow shot at an upward angles looses even more speed, affecting the arc of trajectory. Even guys who bend at the waist will hit a bit high if shooting a 20yd. pin at a target 20yds. away if they are shooting down at a 15degree angle. That is physics!!!!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Stehawk: I now understand your point. But, some are trying to use the logic that they are aiming low to circumvent a potential string-jump and if this in fact happens, the worse case scenario is a double lung shot. Herein lies the difference between two different concepts entirely. Some of these folks truly wish to put their 20 or 25 yard pin a bit low at 5 yards because they recognize they will hit high and proper on the animal. Others are opting for a low hit on the animal and if in case the animal jumps the string, a central lung shot (IMHO, one should never compensate for a string jump as it is a rare occurance at best; unless, however, the animal is on alert) will be the worst-case result. This is the concept that I am questioning; the hit low fellows. I think this ideology is a bit flawed, but who am I to judge. To each his own. The concept of aiming low on the animal is a fundamental process that is directly related to each shooter and his/her individual setup. For example, I need only to put the pin directly center on the animal to hit where Willie's drawing places the proper entrance for a low exit. Rudy on the other hand must aim at the briscuit bone to achieve the same results. In other words, one cannot sit here and tell another where to aim on the animal for best results because individual set-ups vary. Now, certain factors hold true across the board. For example, if you want to double lung the animal at 20 yards, put your pin behind the shoulder, pick a spot just as you would shooting on the ground at a target, and let her eat. Those concepts do not change from target shooting to treestand hunting regardless of what some might say. The concept of gravity and all of that jive in negligible. Someone has made the comment of bending at the waist. Now, I have never consciously thought that to be necessary, but I understand and accept the logic of their need to do it. I am sure I must do it if they state it is absolutely necessary. I do know I have shot deer from a sitting positon at 5 steps on more than one occasion. I have bent at the knees to shoot under a limb on a couple of occasions and hit home. So, I don't know what is right and what is wrong. But, like I have stated, there is no difference between elevated shooting and ground shooting with respect to pin placement. Furthermore, while I understand that some deer do jump the string, most don't, so I fail to see the logic in shooting at the heart when a double lung shot serves its purpose quite well. But, some fellows do it and do it well. Just don't go to telling me that it is the best thing to do just in case a deer jumps the string because I'm not buying it, regardless of the speed of sound and the time a deer has to start maneuvering for a quick get-away (Yes, I have seen the calculations). If string-jumping were common, most individuals that shoot for a double lung shot would never kill a deer. PS 

Oh yeah, sorry for the long winded post. :smile: 

Had to edit here: On a steep incline (if I am on the side of a hill and the deer is 30 yards from the base of my tree) I will pick a tree closest to the animal, bring it up to my eye level, and shoot it for that distance. Most of what I am talking about is shooting on top of a ridge, where the pythagorean theorem holds true.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> For example, I need only to put the pin directly center on the animal to hit where Willie's drawing places the proper entrance for a low exit. Rudy on the other hand must aim at the briscuit bone to achieve the same results. In other words, one cannot sit here and tell another where to aim on the animal for best results because individual set-ups vary. Now, certain factors hold true across the board. For example, if you want to double lung the animal at 20 yards, put your pin behind the shoulder, pick a spot just as you would shooting on the ground at a target, and let her eat. Those concepts do not change from target shooting to treestand hunting regardless of what some might say. The concept of gravity and all of that jive in negligible.


Negligible out at 30 but not at 10! PoisonSnake. I thought you understood? Why do you think I have to shoot low at 7 yards? Because the effect of gravity on my arrow decreases perpendicular to the shaft of the arrow when shooting downward! Physics is not a concept.....its more of a law of science!

Think about a rifle! Sight it in for 100 yards on the ground. Take the gun up in a hot air balloon at 100 yards and shoot straight down at the target. I bet you don't hit the same spot! 

By the way....bending at the waist only helps to maintain form. I practice this and still shoot low!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: I am going to tell you this for your own information. I have a PhD in Nuclear Chemistry. I have studied the physical sciences extensively. I'm not going to argue with you, but don't go telling me something that I have full understanding of. What works for you is fine. If it is that you would read and understand the post, that is what I am clearly stating. What works for you may very well not work for someone else. So don't be talking a line of physics mumbo jumbo to prove your point. Especially when it really has little to do with physics. The effects of gravity on that arrow are 9.8 m/s2. I don't give a rats ass how you look at it. Shoot a bullet from a gun in the x plane and drop a 150 grain bullet from the end of the barrel in the y plane. Which will hit the ground first? I will bet my paycheck that in a vacuum they hit at exactly the same time. Yeah, they won't hit the same spot, but that has little to do with gravity. PS :teeth:


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I didn't read enough to see if it had been mentioned yet but you gotta take into consideration your location of deer too.

Deer in the southern states tend to "duck" a whole lot more than their northern counterparts. I'm talking even at a relaxed state. Here in Tennessee on some of our heavily hunted public areas. I've seen does walk around looking up in the trees. They spook at anything. There is an article in one of the magazines I got this month on that very thing. I can't remember whether it was Deer & Deer Hunting or Petersons Bowhunting but it said the same thing.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Stehawk: I now understand your point. But, some are trying to use the logic that they are aiming low to circumvent a potential string-jump and if this in fact happens, the worse case scenario is a double lung shot. Herein lies the difference between two different concepts entirely. Some of these folks truly wish to put their 20 or 25 yard pin a bit low at 5 yards because they recognize they will hit high and proper on the animal. Others are opting for a low hit on the animal and if in case the animal jumps the string, a central lung shot (IMHO, one should never compensate for a string jump as it is a rare occurance at best; unless, however, the animal is on alert) will be the worst-case result. This is the concept that I am questioning; the hit low fellows. I think this ideology is a bit flawed, but who am I to judge. To each his own. The concept of aiming low on the animal is a fundamental process that is directly related to each shooter and his/her individual setup. For example, I need only to put the pin directly center on the animal to hit where Willie's drawing places the proper entrance for a low exit. Rudy on the other hand must aim at the briscuit bone to achieve the same results. In other words, one cannot sit here and tell another where to aim on the animal for best results because individual set-ups vary. Now, certain factors hold true across the board. For example, if you want to double lung the animal at 20 yards, put your pin behind the shoulder, pick a spot just as you would shooting on the ground at a target, and let her eat. Those concepts do not change from target shooting to treestand hunting regardless of what some might say. The concept of gravity and all of that jive in negligible. Someone has made the comment of bending at the waist. Now, I have never consciously thought that to be necessary, but I understand and accept the logic of their need to do it. I am sure I must do it if they state it is absolutely necessary. I do know I have shot deer from a sitting positon at 5 steps on more than one occasion. I have bent at the knees to shoot under a limb on a couple of occasions and hit home. So, I don't know what is right and what is wrong. But, like I have stated, there is no difference between elevated shooting and ground shooting with respect to pin placement. Furthermore, while I understand that some deer do jump the string, most don't, so I fail to see the logic in shooting at the heart when a double lung shot serves its purpose quite well. But, some fellows do it and do it well. Just don't go to telling me that it is the best thing to do just in case a deer jumps the string because I'm not buying it, regardless of the speed of sound and the time a deer has to start maneuvering for a quick get-away (Yes, I have seen the calculations). If string-jumping were common, most individuals that shoot for a double lung shot would never kill a deer. PS
> 
> Oh yeah, sorry for the long winded post. :smile:
> 
> Had to edit here: On a steep incline (if I am on the side of a hill and the deer is 30 yards from the base of my tree) I will pick a tree closest to the animal, bring it up to my eye level, and shoot it for that distance. Most of what I am talking about is shooting on top of a ridge, where the pythagorean theorem holds true.


Concur :thumbs_up My aimpoint is lower at closer distances, ie 5-15 yards. Like you say for distances say 25 or beyond just aim in a let'er eat. I still however aim at the heart knowing that I have a heart shot if it doesn't move but if it does drop I got a double lung.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: I am going to tell you this for your own information. I have a PhD in Nuclear Chemistry. I have studied the physical sciences extensively. I'm not going to argue with you,


 Then what do you call this?



PoisonSnake said:


> but don't go telling me something that I have full understanding of. What works for you is fine. If it is that you would read and understand the post, that is what I am clearly stating.


 Really? I apologize!



PoisonSnake said:


> What works for you may very well not work for someone else.


 depends on what you are talking about. 



PoisonSnake said:


> So don't be talking a line of physics mumbo jumbo to prove your point. Especially when it really has little to do with physics.


 Really? Check this site out it will explain everything in yes you guessed it....physical terms.
http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html



PoisonSnake said:


> The effects of gravity on that arrow are 9.8 m/s2..


 yes...but do you know how that changes with angles?



PoisonSnake said:


> I don't give a rats ass how you look at it. Shoot a bullet from a gun in the x plane and drop a 150 grain bullet from the end of the barrel in the y plane. Which will hit the ground first? I will bet my paycheck that in a vacuum they hit at exactly the same time. Yeah, they won't hit the same spot, but that has little to do with gravity. PS :teeth:


 That example has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

I will agree with you on one point....that the faster the bow shoots the less gravity effects the flight of the arrow!

Just wondering.....what school did you graduate from?


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

rudyd66 said:


> Really? Check this site out it will explain everything in yes you guessed it....physical terms.
> http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html
> ?


Really good site. It contains alot of what I was feably trying to say but I didn't
have enough G2 to do it! Thanks for posting it. :wink:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Good post Rudy. Thank you for the link. Now, sit there real tight and let me explain to you what that article says without all of the calculations. OK, I'm gonna type this real slowwwww. What is says is that you should aim from a tree stand the same way that you would aim as if you were shooting on the ground. In other words, if a deer is 10 yards away and you are 30 feet high in the tree, don't shoot the animal for 14 yards. Shoot it for 10. Now, what is it that I have been telling you? :wink: 

BTW, it clearly states also that there is some variance depending on the particular setup. Hence some archers shooting terribly fast bows and such. I thought I mentioned that as well. 

One thing is true in all of this. Each person has their own way of doing things. I would bet we will both continue to kill deer.

Now, just for grins I shot last night at 5, 10, 20, 25, and 30 yards. Here are the results shooting from a nonelevated position. Note that these results are for my setup for a sight set dead on at 30 yards and a bow which shoots 283fps. I placed the pin dead on a spot about half the size of a dime. 

5 yards: ~3/4" high, n=8
10 yards: ~1 1/4" high, n=6
20 yards: ~2" high, n= 8
25 yards: ~1" high, n=4
30 yards: ~0" high, n=infinity :teeth: 

You can bet that if I have a deer standing 5 yards from the base of my tree that I will not be changing my point of aim terribly much. In a worst case scenario, I can put my pin dead center on the animal and have a high entrance and a low exit which is what I want.

What do you wanna bet me that if you put me 15-20 feet in a tree that I will see these exact same results?


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> You can bet that if I have a deer standing 5 yards from the base of my tree that I will not be changing my point of aim terribly much. In a worst case scenario, I can put my pin dead center on the animal and have a high entrance and a low exit which is what I want.


Exactly! Now I need to aim slightly lower than you because I shoot much slower than you! (thus gravity effects my arrow more) You say its not because of physics and I'm saying it has everything to do with physics and kinematics. This is the exact point we differ on and that's fine by me.



PoisonSnake said:


> What do you wanna bet me that if you put me 15-20 feet in a tree that I will see these exact same results?


 Now that would defy physics! :mg: 

Enough said! Happy hunting and shoot straight! :teeth:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: I have not really disagreed with you on anything other than the gravity issue. In fact, I clearly stated that it was function of our differing setups early on. I still feel the effects of gravity to be minimal at best. The large differences in our velocity will absolutely cause us to aim differently, even on the horizontal plane. :beer: 

Now, riddle me this: Let's say I weigh 190 pounds soak and wet. I have a gorilla buddy of mine that is 550. We each jump from a deerstand 20 feet high. Now, let's make this in a vacuum, free of any external forces. Which of us will hit the ground faster? How about a feather and a 20 pound lead weight?


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## Live4hunting (Dec 6, 2004)

If you eliminate air resistance it is 8 feet per sec/per sec or was that 48 feet per sec/ per sec. It has been a long time since high shool physics????

Some where between .5 and 2 secs


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> The large differences in our velocity will absolutely cause us to aim differently, even on the horizontal plane. :beer:


Yes that is true....... but I have to adjust more from a treestand. Do you know why?



PoisonSnake said:


> Now, riddle me this: Let's say I weigh 190 pounds soak and wet. I have a gorilla buddy of mine that is 550. We each jump from a deerstand 20 feet high. Now, let's make this in a vacuum, free of any external forces. Which of us will hit the ground faster? How about a feather and a 20 pound lead weight?


 Has nothing to do with the point I was making.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Good post Rudy. Thank you for the link. Now, sit there real tight and let me explain to you what that article says without all of the calculations. OK, I'm gonna type this real slowwwww. What is says is that you should aim from a tree stand the same way that you would aim as if you were shooting on the ground. In other words, if a deer is 10 yards away and you are 30 feet high in the tree, don't shoot the animal for 14 yards. Shoot it for 10. Now, what is it that I have been telling you? :wink:
> 
> BTW, it clearly states also that there is some variance depending on the particular setup. Hence some archers shooting terribly fast bows and such. I thought I mentioned that as well.
> 
> ...


I guess here's where we part company again.  I said before that we want the high entry and low exit and good blood trail. YES, but to get that you have to have a low aiming point at close range. I can't explain it to suit you and it doesn't matter-- you can continue doing it your way and I'll just go on harvesting deer my way. I've had it happen too many times---- shoot high at short yardage I mean.  When you shoot high or miss at short yardage and yes even cripple and lose deer--- remember what I said --- Aim low at short yardage (5-15 yards) and from a 20 ft tree stand. Matter of fact I don't know why I bother explaining myself I'm going to put my Keller pendulum back on my bow and forget it! :thumbs_up
Oh yeah, I wanted to add one other thing for you to think about. I conducted a test once. Put a small cobra pendulum sight on my bow I managed to put a pin on the other side side of the sight frame. In other words I mounted a pendulum inside the same frame as a fixed sight pin. I sighted the one pin in for 10 yards. I sighted the pendulum in so it would shoot dead on at 0-28 yards. It blowed my mind to watch the pendulmu swing far below the 10 yard pin at short distances. As a matter of fact the pendulum would be center mast on the target and the fixed pin was far below at 6 o'clock. Oh well, I can't explain it but it works and that's all that counts for me.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

stehawk said:


> I guess here's where we part company again.  I said before that we want the high entry and low exit and good blood trail. YES, but to get that you have to have a low aiming point at close range. I can't explain it to suit you and it doesn't matter-- you can continue doing it your way and I'll just go on harvesting deer my way. I've had it happen too many times---- shoot high at short yardage I mean.  When you shoot high or miss at short yardage and yes even cripple and lose deer--- remember what I said --- Aim low at short yardage (5-15 yards) and from a 20 ft tree stand. Matter of fact I don't know why I bother explaining myself I'm going to put my Keller pendulum back on my bow and forget it! :thumbs_up


He does not understand this point even after providing a good website that explains it in detail. To each his own and for us.....aim low!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

I suppose I don't know the answer, but let me venture a guess the answer of which you are going to give me; gravity? Okay, now I am gonna ask you to explain it to me. How is it that gravity effects your arrow any differently than that of my own. The acceleration on each shaft is the same. The only difference here is our velocity, which is correlated to the weight of our shafts and the poundage of which we are shooting (obviously very different). I want an answer that I can understand. It could very well be that we are arguing the same point, each from a different perspective. 

Now, the answer to the riddle nearly proves my point. You see, they will hit the ground at the same time. Sure, a magnetic clock might show some deviance in the two, but it is essentially at the same time. After that, you are arguing semantics.

Rudy, do you know what your website says? Obivously not. What it explains is an arrow in the air for 120 feet shooting uphill, downhill, and horizontal. What it says is that you had better aim low with your 40, because even though you are in the air for 120 feet, the actual distance is only 109.5 from the base of your tree. That is why they tell you to aim low. Now read the damn thing.


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## Harley Rider (Nov 11, 2004)

Duke12 said:


> No math need here, I pratice from heights since I hunt from them and I hold dead on!
> .



That’s exactly what everyone who hunts from an elevated height should do. Why the hell would you guess???? When you practice shooting from the ground at 20yds do you set your pin at 23yds and guess? No you set it where you are at. Same in a tree stand. And since every bow set up will shoot differently there is no right or wrong answer to this. Practice is the best thing you can do. Guessing is for lotto numbers. 

Now where you want your shot placement to go is a different story. All controlled by the situation at hand. I always shoot for the heart. I’m a stalker and like it up close and personal. I’m level with my target when I shoot. I shoot directly at the heart and if the deer ducks at all I will get the top of the heart and both lungs or just the lungs.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Harley Rider: You are right on with your post. Dead on accurate! PS


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Harley Rider: You are right on with your post. Dead on accurate! PS



Hey Snake, just so I'll know--- Honestly----- How many deer have you killed, out of a 20 ft tree stand, with a bow? Just curious.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> I suppose I don't know the answer, but let me venture a guess the answer of which you are going to give me; gravity? Okay, now I am gonna ask you to explain it to me. How is it that gravity effects your arrow any differently than that of my own.


 First on the ground. My arrow takes longer to get to the target than yours....thus gravity has more time to pull the arrow to the ground. Therfore my 30 yard pin is set lower on my bow than yours to raise the front of my bow to get it to the target. Now we move to the treestand where we are shooting downward. This means that gravity has less of an effect on the flight of the arrow since gravity is now pulling more with the arrow than against it.......but remember my sight was set on the ground were gravity was pulling perpendicluar to the shaft. This is why I would hit high on a target if I did not adjust from a tree stand.

Why do you think they make a pendulum sight? It adjusts for you! :smile:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Let me see here. I would venture to guess between 50 and 60 with a bow. My best 10 deer with gun and bow (3 with a gun so those don't count) have an average net score of ~130". If you want to make this an issue of me not knowing what the hell I am talking about, that is fine. I will freely succomb to that. I don't.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

PS,

Have you got the feeling that you are beating your head against a brick wall??


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Let me see here. I would venture to guess between 50 and 60 with a bow. My best 10 deer with gun and bow (3 with a gun so those don't count) have an average net score of ~130". If you want to make this an issue of me not knowing what the hell I am talking about, that is fine. I will freely succomb to that. I don't.



Sorry, I wasn't trying to start any BS. I was curious as to how much of what you talking about you have tried and proven. I did alot my past hunting on military bases in NC. In NC we got 5 tags each year and I managed to fill them with my bow. I guess you'd say that my best year was 5 in NC 2 in Miss and 3 in Ky for a total of 10 with a bow. Anyway, I can't explain how it works but the pendulum works great and like I said if you mount one side by side to a fixed pin you'll see what I'm talking about. Anyway, see you folks, Happy hunting and good luck to all.. Semper Fi, Steve.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Willie: You are right on with that one. I need a beer after all of this. :wink: Like many of us have stated along with the website, is that you aim for the point you wish to hit just as you would if shooting from the ground. End of story. If you have a 10 yard pin, then put your 10 yard pin on the point you wish to hit. If you have a 20, put it a little low. Some will have to put their pin a little lower than others given the setup of which they are shooting (Case in point, Rudy). 

I can understand and appreciate the heart shooters. Heck, they can hit a smaller target than me. I just need a dang bigger target to hit. Again, that is why I put my stands at 17-20 feet and not at 30 like some folks I know. :thumbs_up 

Stehawk: No offense taken. I always appreciate a good intelligent argument. BTW, I should have clearly stated that only 20 or so of those deer were shot at very close distance. My last 5 yard shot was in IL a couple of years ago. The arrow exited the heart. Pretty cool as the arrow broke and the rear of the shaft was perfectly centered in the heart. For nearly 5 years, my average shot distance was about 37 yards in MO. I did not have a tree any closer to the trail that I could put a stand in. So, my study section is rather small. MO implemented a 7 deer a season rule several years back. In the beginning, I was whacking 5,6, and even 7 deer a year. Anymore, I generally kill 2 or 3. I honestly believe I could have killed more than 20 within 20 yards before gun season last year. It has gotten to the point that I do in fact throw acorns at them. I was not kidding. I enjoy whacking big bucks. That is what I live for. PS

Okay, I'll go back to just reading for now.


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

Gentlemen....I've enjoyed discussing this topic with you! Even though we have differences on this subject I hope there are no hard feelings...... just keep em shooting straight! :thumbs_up


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

willie said:


> PS,
> 
> Have you got the feeling that you are beating your head against a brick wall??


Hey willie, are you really older than dirt?  You know I've seen some pretty old dirt before!   Besides, you know how hard headed those damn Marines are!    Semper Fi, one more time. :beer:


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

"*By PoisonSnake:
Now, just for grins I shot last night at 5, 10, 20, 25, and 30 yards. Here are the results shooting from a nonelevated position. Note that these results are for my setup for a sight set dead on at 30 yards and a bow which shoots 283fps. I placed the pin dead on a spot about half the size of a dime. 

5 yards: ~3/4" high, n=8
10 * *yards: ~1 1/4" high, n=6
20 yards: ~2" high, n= 8
25 yards: ~1" high, n=4
30 yards: ~0" high, n=infinity :teeth: 

You can bet that if I have a deer standing 5 yards from the base of my tree that I will not be changing my point of aim terribly much. In a worst case scenario, I can put my pin dead center on the animal and have a high entrance and a low exit which is what I want.

What do you wanna bet me that if you put me 15-20 feet in a tree that I will see these exact same results?"*



Hold on a second here!!! Now if gravity works at 9.8m/s2 or roughly 32ft/s2, a 283fps bow should have roughly 3ft or so drop over the entire distance from release point to target, now half that because we really only deal with half the drop, because we compensate for the first half of the drop when we pick our aim point, but at some point, shooting a 30yd. pin at ranges from 5 - 30 yards, that arrow should reach a peak height of roughly 18 or so inches above it's original straightline travel. 90 / 283 = .318(.318) = .101 (32) = 3.232ft, now halving that actually put you somewhere around 19.39 inches which should be your aimpoint above horizontal, and the path that the arrow will travel, for approx half the distance to the target, before it starts dropping to hit on the "X." Now it might seem that I am calling you a liar or something, but I am not, just stating that according to those physics you've studied, your bow and arrow set-up are defying NEWTON's results!!!!

I am shooting 260fps, and I set my pins at 18, 27, 34, 40, and 45yds, and there is a considerable difference between each, but tight enough that I can shoot tweeners and still be good for a kill on a whitetail. 

Now if we want to further study physics, we can, but a .44 Long Colt has about the same trajectory that your bow does if your results are accurate and true, meaning you may be launching arrows closer to 900fps. Do the math 90 / 900 = .1(.1) = .01(32) = .32ft = roughly 4inches, halved equals roughly 2inches rise over 30 yds!!! HMMMM????? :thumbs_do 

Sorry for the long post, but a spade is a spade!!!

:wink:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Stehawk: No offense taken. I always appreciate a good intelligent argument. BTW, I should have clearly stated that only 20 or so of those deer were shot at very close distance. My last 5 yard shot was in IL a couple of years ago. The arrow exited the heart. Pretty cool as the arrow broke and the rear of the shaft was perfectly centered in the heart. For nearly 5 years, my average shot distance was about 37 yards in MO. I did not have a tree any closer to the trail that I could put a stand in. So, my study section is rather small. MO implemented a 7 deer a season rule several years back. In the beginning, I was whacking 5,6, and even 7 deer a year. Anymore, I generally kill 2 or 3. I honestly believe I could have killed more than 20 within 20 yards before gun season last year. It has gotten to the point that I do in fact throw acorns at them. I was not kidding. I enjoy whacking big bucks. That is what I live for. PS
> 
> Okay, I'll go back to just reading for now.


Dang man, I can't even see a deer that far where I normally hunt. Besides, I now live so far back in the hills of Ky that they pipe sunshine in and Owl crap out once a week. :smile: Anyway, since we've gone this far --- why stop now! I do have one last question for you to think about and answer if you're willing. We and most all agree that a pendulum sight works. Right? Well if you mount one side beside a fixed pin and sight them both in perfect--- how would you explain that the pendulum doesn't stay side beside the fixed pin at short yardages? The pendulum doesn't and it hits dead on every time. Inquiring minds want to know. I don't know if its angle, parralax error, illusion, dulusion, stupidity, or too many years in the Marines but I have to aim low at short yardage. :sad:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

SEOBowhntr: These are the results plain and simple. If they defy physics, then so be it. BTW, you can rest assured I have less than 6 inches of drop from 0 to 30 yards regardless of what your calculations suggest (obviously taken from the website posted earlier). From 30 to 40, probably another 6 inches. Hence I put my pin on the deer spine ifn' I shoot a 40 yard shot. You show me a PSE Laser Magnum (1980s) that drops 3 feet from 0 to 30 yards at 180fps and I will show you a bow thrown into the MO River. There is not a bow out there in recent years that shoots as you have described. Show me a bow that drops 4 feet at 40 yards shooting 240fps. I just want to see it. PS

Stehawk: I know nothing about pendulum sights, so I cannot answer your question. However, I do know people that have shot them. Their main gripe with the pendulum sight was much like you suggest. Here are the gripes that I have been told. First, a pendulum sight works well when you are shooting pretty much a right triangle (i.e., on top of a ridge for example). But, let us say you are hunting the side of the ridge and the deer is far below you. The complaints I have been told is that a pendulum does not work well under such shooting conditions. They quit shooting them for this reason. Maybe you have to aim lower with the pendulum in such cases. I, however, do not know either way. So, you can take this information for what it is worth. Someone might be able to discuss this issue a bit more plausible than myself. PS

Also, Stehawk, my 61 acres is located in an area that is considered to be one of the more densely populated areas for deer in the entire state of MO. In fact, my property is located adjacent to a couple bigshots within the MDC. They do the work, I reap the benefits.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Stehawk: I know nothing about pendulum sights, so I cannot answer your question. However, I do know people that have shot them. Their main gripe with the pendulum sight was much like you suggest. Here are the gripes that I have been told. First, a pendulum sight works well when you are shooting pretty much a right triangle (i.e., on top of a ridge for example). But, let us say you are hunting the side of the ridge and the deer is far below you. The complaints I have been told is that a pendulum does not work well under such shooting conditions. They quit shooting them for this reason. Maybe you have to aim lower with the pendulum in such cases. I, however, do not know either way. So, you can take this information for what it is worth. Someone might be able to discuss this issue a bit more plausible than myself. PS
> 
> Also, Stehawk, my 61 acres is located in an area that is considered to be one of the more densely populated areas for deer in the entire state of MO. In fact, my property is located adjacent to a couple bigshots within the MDC. They do the work, I reap the benefits.


You lucky dog--- if you ever decide you want to shoot some of these Ky deer just let me know and I'll shut the gate so you can have one up real close. My fathers farm (250+ acres) joins Mammoth Cave National Park (55,000 acres of unhunted wilderness). Its tuff but someone has to hunt it.  As far as pendulums go I've used a Keller pendulum the most. It works good up to 30 feet in height and out to approx 30 yards ( depending on the speed of your bow). It also has two additional sight pins for distances beyond 30. I try to never shoot beyond 30 but I did shoot the other pins and they seemed to be on at aprox 45 and 60 yards. I've never hunted where the pendulum didn't work--- I mean more that 30 feet below me. Like I said before I'll just take my Extreme sight off and put my Keller back on for season. Have a great upcoming season.


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## EXTREME 1 (Jan 24, 2004)

I always shoot on dead center, I use to shoot low but now I practice the shot and that has made the world of differance


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Same here Ron.

Stehawk: I have an additional 600 acres that I hunt as well. But, I stick primarily to about 100 acres of property which I have had very good luck on. It sounds as if you are the lucky one. I too wish you well with respect to the up and coming season. Oh, and everyone else for that matter. PS


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

SEOBowhntr said:


> "*By PoisonSnake:
> Now, just for grins I shot last night at 5, 10, 20, 25, and 30 yards. Here are the results shooting from a nonelevated position. Note that these results are for my setup for a sight set dead on at 30 yards and a bow which shoots 283fps. I placed the pin dead on a spot about half the size of a dime.
> 
> 5 yards: ~3/4" high, n=8
> ...



I don't have a dog in this chase but I'd like to add my two cents worth anyway. My old bow is shooting about 272fps. Dead on at about 9 yards, about 1" high at 15 yards, back on around 19 yards, approx 1 1/2" low at 25 yards, and approx 5 1/2 at 30 yards, and continues to drop dramatically after that. I don't know what that means but I like it.   Sorry, thats about as short and concise as I can post it.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Stehawk: That isn't terribly different from my setup. I am guessing that over a span of 40 yards, I have about a 10-12" of drop. I generally place my single pin that is set at 30 ~4-5 inches high on a 40 yard shot. A good friend of mine that is a regular here e-mailed me and he stated that he shoots 240fps and that he has an 24" drop over 40 yards. PS


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Stehawk: That isn't terribly different from my setup. I am guessing that over a span of 40 yards, I have about a 10-12" of drop. I generally place my single pin that is set at 30 ~4-5 inches high on a 40 yard shot. A good friend of mine that is a regular here e-mailed me and he stated that he shoots 240fps and that he has an 24" drop over 40 yards. PS



Works for me!


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

PS, 
I think I once read you were an "Asst. Prof." of something science related, correct??? Well, let's see here, you claim roughly 5" of additional drop from 30 to 40 yds???? Did you claim to have some physics background??? And Chemistry right??? Well, the numbers your posting are a bit unbelieveable, kind of like the getting a Sodium (NA+) and a Calcium (Ca ++) pair of atoms to bond.  If you shoot that way, it is because you unknowingly are compensating, because physics will show you that even a 350fps bow will have roughly 10" of drop from 30 to 40yds, and that's if it maintains its speed, not likely. So how would a 280ish bow have only half that??? It won't!!! I am done, sorry to drag this out for those of you that are disgusted, but when someone claims to be "so" intelligent, tries to lambaste another member, and then posts absolute BS (or lies, which are proven in my previous post, unless gravity various from one area code to another) it torques me wrong.  

Sorry for the case of Red-Arse,
Doug


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Doug: I tell you what you do. Get on a plane and fly here and let me show you what my bow does. If it does not do what I tell you, I will buy your round-trip air-ticket back. Why is it that a lot of folks are shooting only one pin these days? Do you honestly think they could do this if their arrow dropped 4 feet over 40 yards? You have another shooter in Stehawk that stated his bow did very much the same thing and he and I were agreeing and disagreeing on everything for various reasons. Yet, we were pretty much right on que with what one another was saying. You can call it a lie, or what have you. My bow drops about 1 foot between 0 and 40 yards. End of story. BTW, I have a major understanding of science and killing deer. I do one, so that I can pay for the other. That is not going to change anytime soon either. BTW, you check to see where I have lambasted another member. I do not question what Rudy says or does. He knows his own bow, which is what is important here. I have shot a bow for more than 20 years. I'll make this clear to you Doug, there is one thing I cannot stand; that is when one person calls another a liar. Most often, an ass-kicking should soon follow unless the call is precedented. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here as your ignorance is shining through. For you to question my intelligence is one thing. For you to question my honesty is an entirely different issue. PS


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PS,

Here is a sight that explains the example I was trying to convey to you yesterday with the gun. It also applies to archery since gravity doesn't care what it is pulling on.

I am not arguing how you aim on the ground or in the tree (if you aim the same that is fine) nor where you want the arrow to hit on a deer (high is good). I was simply trying to explain to you that your arrow flight path is slightly different at angled shots versus horizontal ones due to the angle of gravity pull on the arrow.

I think you will like this article since it avoids the "mumbo jumbo" physics. Hope this helps! :thumbs_up 

http://www.gamecalls.net/huntingtips/upanddownshooting.html


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: Thanks for the link! I'm glad that I will never have to worry about any of this for the most part. That, and it makes my head hurt reading and then rereading trying to understand. I'll concede that the path of the arrow is slightly different on an angling shot. For my setup, I don't have to worry much. For you, maybe a little more. PS :thumbs_up


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: Thanks for the link! I'm glad that I will never have to worry about any of this for the most part. That, and it makes my head hurt reading and then rereading trying to understand. I'll concede that the path of the arrow is slightly different on an angling shot. For my setup, I don't have to worry much. For you, maybe a little more. PS :thumbs_up


I particulary like the example of the flyrod.......I'll have to remember that one. Anyway...glad that helped! :teeth:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Rudy: Don't go to thinking that I am agreeing with you entirely.  

Doug: If I put my 30 yard pin on a deers spine that is standing at 40 yards and I hit him dead center in the chest, how much is my arrow dropping over that 10 yards? Looks to me to be about 5 or 6 inches, correct? PS


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Rudy: Don't go to thinking that I am agreeing with you entirely.
> 
> Doug: If I put my 30 yard pin on a deers spine that is standing at 40 yards and I hit him dead center in the chest, how much is my arrow dropping over that 10 yards? Looks to me to be about 5 or 6 inches, correct? PS


Wanna still bet that paycheck?.......LOL!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Sure.

The effects of gravity on that arrow are 9.8 m/s2. I don't give a rats ass how you look at it. Shoot a bullet from a gun in the x plane and drop a 150 grain bullet from the end of the barrel in the y plane. Which will hit the ground first? I will bet my paycheck that in a vacuum they hit at exactly the same time. Yeah, they won't hit the same spot, but that has little to do with gravity.

I can't lose on this one.


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

PS, 
Depends on the size of the deer, but around hear, it'd be closer to 8-10" if it's and adult deer, a smaller yearling, maybe 6". But this is SE Ohio, and we have some 250# deer running around, my 100" in my wall weighed around 220 live wt, but was a drought yr. deer, so antler development suffered. I spined him and blew out his left lung from 12 yards shooting my 20 yd. pin aiming right on shooting on flat ground. I didn't adjust well, because he ran right in at me, and literally scared me. The arrow literally threw him to the ground with a loud "UMPH," and he looked up at me like "What did you do to me???" Worst feeling I ever had, I told him "I'm sorry," and dropped one through his heart at point blank, and walked away for 20 minutes to leave him to "Rest in Peace." This was an example of why adjusting to the range your shooting is so important. I didn't hunt for a couple weeks after that because I felt so guilty for the "Bad Shot." It really wasn't that "Bad" of a shot if your main interest is getting a deer, but for a quick humane kill it was bad.

Doug


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

PS, I'd bet a paycheck, but it really wouldn't be fair on our argument, because even without doing an experiement to see whose results are closer, like using a hooter-shooter, I can guarantee, I'd be taking your money, and that'd be like stealing from a blind, deaf, dumb mute, and that'd be unethical.  Like I said, if you really shoot that well it's merely because unknowingly you're compensating. But hey, natural shooters are often times the best. I've got a friend who stuck a ground hog from about 40yds. running with his bow several years ago while we were bowhunting, heading back to the truck, and he's never owned a site in the 15yrs. we've been shooting together!!!! Lucky *******!!!


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## rudyd66 (Apr 22, 2005)

PoisonSnake said:


> Sure.
> 
> The effects of gravity on that arrow are 9.8 m/s2. I don't give a rats ass how you look at it. Shoot a bullet from a gun in the x plane and drop a 150 grain bullet from the end of the barrel in the y plane. Which will hit the ground first? I will bet my paycheck that in a vacuum they hit at exactly the same time. Yeah, they won't hit the same spot, but that has little to do with gravity.
> 
> I can't lose on this one.


I agree......you'd win this one!


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Doug: Yes, it will depend upon the size of the deer. I am sorry to hear of the situation with your buck. I had a similar experience with a doe a few years back and have only shot one doe since. But, if it is that I hold my 30 yard pin typically 5 or 6 inches high to hit center when shooting a target at 40 yards in my backyard, then how far is my arrow dropping between 30 and 40 yards? I'm venturing to guess 5 or 6 inches without doing a single calculation. Now, here is an issue that I am uncertain of. I shoot 27.5" Carbon Express CX300s tipped with a 100g fieldpoint. I do not know the weight of my arrow as I have never checked it. But, I looked at tuning charts and such and decided this was fine for the 67#s I am shooting. The bow is tuned pefect through paper and by group tuning. But, on those calculations on the website that Rudy showed, I saw nothing that mentioned the weight of the shaft figured into those calculations. It could very well be that it isn't needed and I sure as heck am not going to go back and try to figure it out. You can either take my word on what I tell you, or you can call me a liar flat out. Either is fine. Chances are, I am still going to kill deer ifn' I am lucky enough for one to step in front of me. And, I am going to do it with little guesswork in judging yardage. PS


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

SEOBowhntr said:


> Like I said, if you really shoot that well it's merely because unknowingly you're compensating.


Nowhere did I say anything about shooting well. :wink: I am a bowhunter and I am not the best shooter on targets. I practice shooting at a spot about the size of half a dime year in and year out (a piece of bark mulch stuck in my block target). When I am in my groove, I am dead on. But, even the slightest hand torque and I will shoot 2-3" left. I shoot year round to a certain degree, but after spring turkey season, I really get wired. It takes me about 2 months to cure myself of this nonsense every year. I never had this problem with a longer more forgiving bow. At the cost of speed, i have some difficulty with a perfect grip on the riser. However, I am completely satisfied with a heartshot (baseball hit) at 30/40 yards every time when I miss. But, it still pisses me off to see arrow wobble knowing full well I did something wrong (i.e., hand torque or punching the release)


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

"Shoot additional groups at 15 yards with your 30-yard pin; 20 yards with your 40-yard pin; 25 yards with your 50-yard pin. With increasing distance, you'll find that your arrows hit progressively higher, giving you a clear picture of the trajectory at each distance. For a bow shooting about 220 feet per second (fps), the midrange trajectory at 20 yards will be roughly 3 inches; at 30 yards, 6 inches; at 40 yards, 12 inches; and at 50 yards, 20 inches. At higher arrow speeds, the trajectory will be less; at slower speeds, greater. This method doesn't give peak trajectories, which are slightly closer to the target, but it does give you a practical picture of midrange trajectory."

Doug: Not to beat a dead horse, but I found this to be interesting. Kindof defends the point of which I have been trying to convince you of. Here is the website. It clearly details much of what we have talked about in nonphysical terms. It clearly details the mistakes hunters misjudging yardage when shooting from an elevated position or on a very steep incline. Maybe this will convince you that I am not just blowing smoke.  

http://www.gandermountain.com/hunting/article.asp_Q_id_E_40


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Don't get too caught-up in all that shot-angle stuff....*

Unless I'm shooting virtually straight down (a poor-percenatge shot that I rarely take), just put the pin dead-on where you want the arrow to hit.....

The only exception would be on a REALLY skittish animal, you may want to aim a little low to allow for some "dropping" at the sound of the shot.... :embarasse 

(Personally, if the animal is THAT skittish, I'll hold-off until they relax more....)


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## Keith @ Aim Low (Aug 26, 2004)

This is what I have been doing since I started using a range finder. I make note of the distance between me and various trees around me. I don't measure at the base of the tree, but rather perpindicular to me around the ballpark of 20 ft. up the tree Im measuring to. :



Using Geometry to Calculate Arrow Trajectory

Here's how geometry can be used to calculate how arrow trajectory changes when shooting on an incline:
Visualize the hunting situation as a right-angle triangle, with two perpendicular legs; (A), the distance from the hunter to the ground; and (B), the distance from the animal to the ground directly below the hunter. The sloped hypotenuse, (C), is the distance from the hunter to the animal. In essence, the drop of an arrow fired along the inclined hypotenuse will equal the drop of an arrow traveling the horizontal distance (B).
For example, imagine you're on a cliff, where you spot a buck standing below at a 45-degree angle to your line of sight. Your rangefinder shows that the distance along the sloped line to the buck is 30 yards. Using a basic formula from geometry, called the Pythagorean Theorem (A2 + B2 = C2), you can calculate that side B, representing the horizontal distance to the deer, is roughly 21 yards. To hit the deer in the kill zone, then, you would use the 20-yard sight pin, not the 30-yard pin.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Keith @ Aim Low said:


> This is what I have been doing since I started using a range finder. I make note of the distance between me and various trees around me. I don't measure at the base of the tree, but rather perpindicular to me around the ballpark of 20 ft. up the tree Im measuring to. :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you-- Ohhh I guess that's enough thank you's. PS that shoots your theory all too heck. Just aim in and shoot doesn't work--- sorry. :sad:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake
Doug: Not to beat a dead horse said:


> http://www.gandermountain.com/hunting/article.asp_Q_id_E_40[/url]



Sorry PS, this site just proves that you are wrong. :mg: :sad: . I looked at the site very closely--- trajectory, sight window, shooting angle, A2+B2=C2, and shooting on an angle. The shooting on got my attention! It stated that the trick, of course, is determining how low to aim at different distances (so I guess you do have to aim low after all) and slope angles. You can calculate this information geometrically, but to do so requires a calculator, electronic rangefinder, clinometer for measuring angle of slope and a good head for mathmatics ( I guess that leaves me out :sad: ) Then again I guess you could just use a pendulum sight!!  Bottom line is --- YOU HAVE TO AIM LOW!!!! :angel: Keith @aim low is 100% correct!!!! Don't feel bad-- I was just like you at one time---just suck it up and learn from it. :wink:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

TexasGuy said:


> Unless I'm shooting virtually straight down (a poor-percenatge shot that I rarely take), just put the pin dead-on where you want the arrow to hit.....
> 
> The only exception would be on a REALLY skittish animal, you may want to aim a little low to allow for some "dropping" at the sound of the shot.... :embarasse
> 
> (Personally, if the animal is THAT skittish, I'll hold-off until they relax more....)


Sorry Texas Guy but you're wrong. :sad:


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Wrong?! Hell, I ain't never been wrong.....*

.....about anything in my entire life!     


(OK, maybe 200-300 times, but that's about it!)


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

*A2+b2=c2*

If you read this site it gives you 2 of the varibles C=30 yards and B=21 yards that means you would be 21 yards above the deer or 60 feet up looking down at a target. Try to imagine sitting in tree and shooting this. So naturally you would have to aim lower if you were trying to hit them broadside. The deer would be the same distance away from you as you were high. Now if you were 15' in a tree and your range finder said 30 yards what would B=?


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## Blazer (Jul 5, 2004)

In my opinion it's tought enough up there as it is. So I tune my bow to shoot dead on. I put my targets out at 10, 20, 30 yds. and sight my bow in accordingly. 

The only time I shoot low is when a nervous deer is in front of me. The further out that "nervous" deer is the lower I aim. But other than that, I aim dead on.


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## DeerDude (Sep 16, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> I aim dead on my "spot" using my pendulum sight


I will second that,those pendulumns are great!!!!!!!!! :shade:


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

TexasGuy said:


> .....about anything in my entire life!
> 
> 
> (OK, maybe 200-300 times, but that's about it!)


 :smile: Thats a good one. Hey you might be like that Mountain Man. He said he'd never been lost before--- but had been a might bewildered for a day or two.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Southern Hunter said:


> If you read this site it gives you 2 of the varibles C=30 yards and B=21 yards that means you would be 21 yards above the deer or 60 feet up looking down at a target. Try to imagine sitting in tree and shooting this. So naturally you would have to aim lower if you were trying to hit them broadside. The deer would be the same distance away from you as you were high. Now if you were 15' in a tree and your range finder said 30 yards what would B=?


Well, I've never been acused of being too smart for my own good  I can't explain crap but I know it works. Anyway, I believe in pendulum sights. Moreover, if and when I use fixed pin sights and shooting uphill/downhill or upslope/downslope I aim lower that I would on level ground. It works for me. :teeth: If I'm shooting 25+ yards I aim dead on. I've shot wounded and lost more deer than I care to admit. Once I started aiming lower I've had no problems, however, I now use a pendulum sight so I don't really have to worry about it.  Haven't lost or crippled a deer in the last 15 years. :smile: You guys have fun--- I'm going to continue to aim low and harvest deer. :thumbs_up


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## TX Bowhunter (Dec 13, 2004)

Doc said:


> I always aim for the lowest possible spot in the vitals. When the deer does "jump the string" (i.e. squatting before take off), then the arrow hits perfectly. In the rare instance, the deer doesn't jump the string, I still have a nice shot.
> 
> I heavily recommend shooting a bunch of arrows at a target from your treestand at the height you will be hunting before the season starts. This will make you comfortable with the operation of the stand, how you move your equipment up and down, how you situate yourself and equipment in the stand and how to shoot from your stand.


Both statements are excellant by Doc IMO. There is nothing that will help you anymore than an actuall practice session from a tree at the heights you will be hanging from. I also aim a little low in the vitals for the same reasons as stated above. I do alot of tree hunting and this has always worked for me.

John


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## Keith @ Aim Low (Aug 26, 2004)

*Now wait a minute guys...*

....before you say that what I said totally proves PS wrong, he is basically saying the exact thing I just said on page 2 of this thread.
It looks to me like you guys are debating some symantecs here. 




PoisonSnake said:


> Had to edit here: On a steep incline (if I am on the side of a hill and the deer is 30 yards from the base of my tree) I will pick a tree closest to the animal, bring it up to my eye level, and shoot it for that distance. Most of what I am talking about is shooting on top of a ridge, where the pythagorean theorem holds true.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

I hope that no one on this site is offended by my opinion and what I've posted on this thread.  Anyway, I've read the articles and have to quote some of the one from Gander Mountain--- quote---Bows are generally sighted in for horizontal shots, where arrow trajectories are predictable. However, when you shoot from a high tree stand or an uphill or downhill slope, the rules of trajectory change- Unquote. It also stated during the article -- quote --- The trick, of course, is determining how low to aim at different distances and slope angles.-- unquote. I guess the reason I bring this up is because I want to prove why its easy for alot of poople to be confused with this issue. Moreover, I want to say I think we're all saying the same thing but at a different angles :mg: :wink: Bottom line for me---- shoot low (for the heart)-- if you misjudge distance, the deer moves, or you forgot about parallax error or whatever, you still either get a heart shot or a double lung shot and go home with some tasty venison :wink: Lastly, I vote for eveyone to get a Pendulum sight and forget the rest of this crap. :mg: :wink: :angel: Luck to all. Steve.


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

[email protected]: That is exactly what it is. Semantics. Everything I have stated is clearly outlined in those very websites of which have been posted. Basically, you shoot the animal for a distance that is exactly at the distance horizontal to your line of vision if you are on top of a ridge, or on a very steep incline. If you are on top of a ridge and the lay of the land is flat, that distance will be the same at the base of your tree. That is it. The reason they are telling you to "aim low" is because often a hunter will mistake the distance as that of being the distance that the arrow will actually travel from hunter to animal. This is wrong. The actual distance is much less than that. Hence, they tell you to aim low. Now, I don't have to aim terribly low and that is a matter of shooting a very flat shooting bow. What I have clearly stated, and you can go back to read my posts Stehawk, is that if I have a deer 30 yards downhill, I am not going to shoot him for 30. I will look at a tree at eye level, and shoot him dead on for that distance. 10, 15, 17 yards, whatever that distance might be. On level terrain where the pythagorean theorem holds true, if a deer is 20 yards from the base of my tree, he will be shot for 20 yards. That is what these websites are telling you. Here is the jist of it; the reason they are telling you to aim low on the web site is because the actual distance that the arrow should be shot for is much less than a hunter would anticipate because if you walk it off, it may be 40 yards downhill, but only 15 yards at eye level. Therefore, if I had a 15 yard pin, I would put it at the point on the animal where I want the arrow to enter. Heart shooters, would put their 15 yard pin on the heart because that is what they prefer to do. These are not theories, these are facts. If you have only a 30 yard pin, then you might want to aim a couple inches low. If you have a 20 yard pin, maybe not as much. But, this depends upon the bow for the most part. :wink: PS


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

*A2+b2=c2*

stehawk, I am not offended by anything said on here. I just think there may be something that is a little misleading on this. If you normally sit in a tree at a height of 15 to 20 feet and you range a deer at 30 yards it is pretty darn close to 30 yards. If you do the math and use pythagorean theorem it will come out to 29 yards. By using this example it only gives you that you have a 30 yard ranged yardage and a 21 yard actual it doesn't tell you that you are 60' in the air. So for some who read this may be thinking, if I range it at 30 yards in my tree stand it's ony 21 yards. If they shoot it for 21 yards as stated in the example they will miss low if they aim low, miss even lower.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

See there, we all agree after all   . We're just looking at it from different angles   Really, you guys have a great season. I wonder if we could get any bets that we won't fill our tags  :shade:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

The only thing that I am offended by is that someone called me a liar when I told them how my bow shot from 5 to 30 yards and another questioned my deer killing ability. You fornicaters are tough.


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## Keith @ Aim Low (Aug 26, 2004)

Is there a difference between being full of chit and a liar? I know PS personally and he is not a liar, but he is definately full of chit.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Keith @ Aim Low said:


> Is there a difference between being full of chit and a liar? I know PS personally and he is not a liar, but he is definately full of chit.


Damn, I resemble that remark!!


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> The only thing that I am offended by is that someone called me a liar when I told them how my bow shot from 5 to 30 yards and another questioned my deer killing ability. You fornicaters are tough.


Yeah PS, but I graduated High School the year you were born. That just proves I've had more time practicing making mistakes :wink: :teeth: :teeth: 
Here's one of them :wink:


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## PoisonSnake (Feb 10, 2005)

Stehawk: That may be true. But, when you make mistakes on a daily basis as I do, it allows me to catch up with old fuggers like you real quick. :beer: 

I have no idea who this [email protected] fellow is.  PS


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

PoisonSnake said:


> Stehawk: That may be true. But, when you make mistakes on a daily basis as I do, it allows me to catch up with old fuggers like you real quick. :beer:
> 
> I have no idea who this [email protected] fellow is.  PS



Yeah, and anyone with the name aimlow shouldn't be allowed to add anything to this thread :zip:


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## ultimatearchery (Feb 16, 2004)

If I miss the spot of aim from an elevated stand, I tend to miss high. Couple that with the tendency of a deer to "jump the string" and I make a point of aiming as low in the vital region as I can. 

Practicing from a treestand is invaluable. This year, I plan to set my pins shooting from a treestand.


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