# Looking for an Electric Bike, which one?



## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

So, I’m thinking about selling off all of my target archery gear (that rarely gets used) and look into an electric bike. I will have roughly $2,500 to spend and want a bike that will go off-road and up hills.

There are a lot of conflicting reviews so I want to hear from the Hunting community on here. 

Recommend a mid-drive motor or rear hub motor? 

I’m pretty tall and there aren’t many around to look at and try. I’m 6’4” 215lbs.

I was looking at the Rambo and Rad e-bikes, but I’m sure there are many others.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide!


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

My advise would be to save more money and buy a Bakcou mule.I bought a Rambo last year.It's a great concept but the Rambo is average.


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

You'll likely get some "mine's the best " replies so look for what appeals to you. I have a Rambo 750 that pulls a 300+ lb man on the cart with ease but that may not happen on steep hills. The 1000 watt motors will have more power but may not be legal in some places. Mid motors have very good torque but you will need to carry a chain repair kit because the bike is useless with a broken chain, where a rear hub drive can still be ridden with power. A front shock will be more comfortable as will a better seat.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

I hunt in PA and WV, anyone know what Watt motor is legal on gamelands/wmu’s?


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

If you want to go uphill and/or pull some weight, you’ll want a mid drive motor. They offer much more torque than a hub motor. Regardless of what brand of bike you go with, the majority of mid drive Ebikes have one of two motors on them - Either the Bafang BBS02 which you’ll commonly see associated with bikes being advertised as “750 watt” or the Bafang BBSHD which is commonly the “1000 watt” bikes. The HD is built with better components and is capable of handling more torque than the BBS02. 

In addition to the motors, some other components I would look for when comparing bikes are fixed forks vs suspension (suspension will absorb bumps better and make for a more comfortable ride), disc brakes vs hydraulic (hydraulic is better), and internal rear gear hub instead of a rear cassette with a derailleur. The IGH is a better setup for off-road use since you won’t have to worry about something getting caught in the derailleur or it breaking off, or the chain coming off while switching gears. All the gear switching is done within the sealed rear hub with an IGH.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

I think I found the bike for me, the Rambo Savage 750W. It has a mid-drive motor!


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## Willys50 (Sep 3, 2019)

I have been looking at hardcore bikes. They sound good, but I really don’t know what I’m looking at. I’d really like to demo one before I buy. The new model has front and rear wheel drive.


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## Austin h (Feb 19, 2020)

definitely ride a few deferent ones if it is possible


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

pabuck said:


> I hunt in PA and WV, anyone know what Watt motor is legal on gamelands/wmu’s?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


750w but it still has to be voted on by the PGC if they're going to be legal on SGL.


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

Interesting topic for me, too. I'd love to hear from people who have an ebike. There's a steep hill on my hunting property that is about 400ft vertical climb in short distance. I have to climb that hill every hunt to access the ridge top. Once up there I can travel with ease, but getting up there sucks. I'm so sweaty by the time I get to the ridge that scent control in a non-issue. It becomes entirely about hunting the wind. If an ebike could get me up there without getting sweaty, it would be worth its weight in gold to me. I'd already have bought one except I'm afraid I'll spend a few grand only to find out it won't climb that hill, and I haven't yet seen or heard anything to give me confidence.


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

It's not widely advertised but the Bafang 750 watt motor will peak at 1000. I don't know what the 1000 watt motors peak at.


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

Skipop said:


> Interesting topic for me, too. I'd love to hear from people who have an ebike. There's a steep hill on my hunting property that is about 400ft vertical climb in short distance. I have to climb that hill every hunt to access the ridge top. Once up there I can travel with ease, but getting up there sucks. I'm so sweaty by the time I get to the ridge that scent control in a non-issue. It becomes entirely about hunting the wind. If an ebike could get me up there without getting sweaty, it would be worth its weight in gold to me. I'd already have bought one except I'm afraid I'll spend a few grand only to find out it won't climb that hill, and I haven't yet seen or heard anything to give me confidence.


How crazy are you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7a8XjeDRGg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5bknbXFxjM


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

pabuck said:


> I think I found the bike for me, the Rambo Savage 750W. It has a mid-drive motor!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought the Rambo 750 last Dec. Awesome bike, love it!
Is the savage the 2020 model? Do yourself a favor, get one with front suspension!

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## Viking53 (Aug 26, 2019)

have they improved the rubber tires yet so they don`t leak easy from cactus needles yet ?


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

Viking53 said:


> have they improved the rubber tires yet so they don`t leak easy from cactus needles yet ?


Go tubeless and fill with Slime


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

stikbow208 said:


> How crazy are you?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7a8XjeDRGg
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5bknbXFxjM


Not as crazy as that! I'd flat kill myself trying that stuff. Videos like that are precisely what worry me. Those guys are still peddling quite robustly, which means I'd still be a sweaty mess when I reach the ridge top. I want a bike that will tote me up without peddling at all. If it can't then I wouldn't be interested in having one. If it can then I'd buy one immediately. The problem is I don't know, which is why I'm interested but haven't pulled the trigger. I don't hunt giant farms with flat or lightly rolling ag land, but that seems to be all that any of the hunting bike advertising shows. I'm hunting big woods with steep and high ups & downs. If an ebike could get me to the ridge without me getting sweaty then it would be a game changer. Otherwise life continues on as is.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Viking53 said:


> have they improved the rubber tires yet so they don`t leak easy from cactus needles yet ?


Just put liners in them.


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

dougell said:


> My advise would be to save more money and buy a Bakcou mule.I bought a Rambo last year.It's a great concept but the Rambo is average.


I've done quite a bit of research and there is only one that I would get - the Backcou Mule.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Skipop said:


> Interesting topic for me, too. I'd love to hear from people who have an ebike. There's a steep hill on my hunting property that is about 400ft vertical climb in short distance. I have to climb that hill every hunt to access the ridge top. Once up there I can travel with ease, but getting up there sucks. I'm so sweaty by the time I get to the ridge that scent control in a non-issue. It becomes entirely about hunting the wind. If an ebike could get me up there without getting sweaty, it would be worth its weight in gold to me. I'd already have bought one except I'm afraid I'll spend a few grand only to find out it won't climb that hill, and I haven't yet seen or heard anything to give me confidence.


Every place I hunt is a hill and a 750w mid drive will take you up them effortlessly.The day I got mine,It was in July and I went to check some trail cams.It was a 1.8 mile ride,mostly uphill and I never broke a sweat.You still peddle but you use far less effort than walking.My son races motox and took that Rambo up some pretty impressive hill climbs.


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## IrBrute (Oct 24, 2012)

So much bad information in here. Most of the bikes mentioned have crap components and won't hold up to any abuse at all. If you want a real e-bike get one of the big brand bikes (Trek, Specialized etc.). You will be better off in the end and won't have to replace crappy components. You will almost absolutely pay more upfront, but you'll have a bike that won't break when you need it. 

The bikes in stikbow's videos are hundreds if not thousands of times better than the Rad bikes, don't expect to even come close to being able to do that on one of the bikes mentioned in this thread. 

The other thing that has only kind of been mentioned here are the E-Bike regulations. We are only at the beginning of new laws being introduced, so whatever you get now may not be legal in the near future. This coming from someone who MTB's regularly in CO and is seeing the increased legislation that is already happening with more E-Bikes on the trails. 

As for tires, absolutely go Tubeless, do not use Slime it's garbage. Use Orange Seal, Stans, or one of the other popular MTB brand sealants. Slime is alright in car tires etc. but there is a reason no one who rides a MTB regularly uses it. A good sealant and a plug/patch kit will get you through almost everything. If you want additional rim protection and the ability to run a flat tire, albeit slowly, add Cushcore inserts to the tires.


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

dougell said:


> Every place I hunt is a hill and a 750w mid drive will take you up them effortlessly.The day I got mine,It was in July and I went to check some trail cams.It was a 1.8 mile ride,mostly uphill and I never broke a sweat.You still peddle but you use far less effort than walking.My son races motox and took that Rambo up some pretty impressive hill climbs.


This is exactly the kind of testaments I have been looking to hear. I appreciate it. My local bow shop owner is pretty much on the same fence as me, and said he's considering Rambo dealership. It's funny you mention motox because I told him I want it to basically be like a dirt bike without the noise. Obviously they aren't a dirt bike but the comparison paints a picture of what I'm after. And my hill isn't crazy. I go up it regularly with atv or utv. I just don't use them when I hunt because of noise & exhaust stink.


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

IrBrute said:


> The bikes in stikbow's videos are hundreds if not thousands of times better than the Rad bikes, don't expect to even come close to being able to do that on one of the bikes mentioned in this thread.


And there's the other side of the coin. Although I won't be doing anything near what the guys in the videos are doing, my hill is still plenty steep and high enough to majorly suck when walking up it. It's not far removed from what a motor cross hill climb would command.


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## IrBrute (Oct 24, 2012)

Skipop said:


> And there's the other side of the coin. Although I won't be doing anything near what the guys in the videos are doing, my hill is still plenty steep and high enough to majorly suck when walking up it. It's not far removed from what a motor cross hill climb would command.


Another thing to consider, if the hill is that steep and you are not on a defined trail/path etc., where stopping could be a hazardous are the brakes on the bikes mentioned. Most if not all have cheap mechanical disc brakes. These are horrible in wet weather and do not provide even close to the stopping power of hydraulic brakes. 

You can get good mechanicals, but they still won't be like good hydro brakes, for good mechanical options check out what the bikepacking guys are using because they are loading their bikes up quite a bit, and they are usually more concerned with longevity and being maintenance free.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

IrBrute said:


> So much bad information in here. Most of the bikes mentioned have crap components and won't hold up to any abuse at all. If you want a real e-bike get one of the big brand bikes (Trek, Specialized etc.). You will be better off in the end and won't have to replace crappy components. You will almost absolutely pay more upfront, but you'll have a bike that won't break when you need it.
> 
> The bikes in stikbow's videos are hundreds if not thousands of times better than the Rad bikes, don't expect to even come close to being able to do that on one of the bikes mentioned in this thread.
> 
> ...


There's truth to that.The rambo I bought doesn't have the best components.


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

Skipop said:


> This is exactly the kind of testaments I have been looking to hear. I appreciate it. My local bow shop owner is pretty much on the same fence as me, and said he's considering Rambo dealership. It's funny you mention motox because I told him I want it to basically be like a dirt bike without the noise. Obviously they aren't a dirt bike but the comparison paints a picture of what I'm after. And my hill isn't crazy. I go up it regularly with atv or utv. I just don't use them when I hunt because of noise & exhaust stink.


If you can climb it with a UTV you can climb it with a Rambo


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

If u have $2500 to spend, i would build one. You will end up with a WAY better bike. I have a Rambo 750, its a walmart bike with a bafang motor on it. All the components are lacking in quality compared to what youd get building your own at that price.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Teemster said:


> If u have $2500 to spend, i would build one. You will end up with a WAY better bike. I have a Rambo 750, its a walmart bike with a bafang motor on it. All the components are lacking in quality compared to what youd get building your own at that price.


Can you pm me a build sheet with what I need to buy?


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

Teemster said:


> If u have $2500 to spend, i would build one. You will end up with a WAY better bike. I have a Rambo 750, its a walmart bike with a bafang motor on it. All the components are lacking in quality compared to what youd get building your own at that price.


Heck, a Wal-Mart bike would do me fine if it gets me up the hill. Of course having something more substantial would be nice. I'm a fan of overkill.


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## Ayayron (Feb 28, 2019)

Winks sporting goods in MD has quiet kat and I rode one of his bikes on the lowest setting. It was flat land but on the lowest setting I didn’t have to peddle but 1/4 turn every 20 seconds or so to keep me moving at about 20mph. I would be willing to bet that would handle you no problem as I am 6’3 and 200


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## Skipop (Feb 26, 2020)

pabuck said:


> Can you pm me a build sheet with what I need to buy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me too!!!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

IrBrute said:


> So much bad information in here. Most of the bikes mentioned have crap components and won't hold up to any abuse at all. If you want a real e-bike get one of the big brand bikes (Trek, Specialized etc.). You will be better off in the end and won't have to replace crappy components. You will almost absolutely pay more upfront, but you'll have a bike that won't break when you need it.
> 
> The bikes in stikbow's videos are hundreds if not thousands of times better than the Rad bikes, don't expect to even come close to being able to do that on one of the bikes mentioned in this thread.
> 
> ...


would you include the Backcou Mule as a bike with crap components?

Joe


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## IrBrute (Oct 24, 2012)

12-Ringer said:


> would you include the Backcou Mule as a bike with crap components?
> 
> Joe


I'd say it has a mix of some good and some bad. Like the Fork, I wouldn't trust that thing the way I ride, but for a casual ride it would likely be alright. It looks like it does have hydraulic brakes, but I'm not familiar with that brand of brakes. They are Quad piston which should be strong, I just don't know anything about them. 

The other components seem to be a bit of a mixed bag. They saved some money going SunRace for the cassette and chainring, the cranks are mid/lower tier and cockpit (bars/grips/stem) is sub par. The drivetrain looks like lower level shimano, it'll work, but it's just meh. I hated the Monarch rear shock on a past mtb I rode, but again that's aggressive trail riding, so for a casual ride this would likely be ok. 

PaBuck is absolutely right though, if you have some time to piece a bike together you will get a lot more bang for your buck than buying a complete bike.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

IrBrute said:


> I'd say it has a mix of some good and some bad. Like the Fork, I wouldn't trust that thing the way I ride, but for a casual ride it would likely be alright. It looks like it does have hydraulic brakes, but I'm not familiar with that brand of brakes. They are Quad piston which should be strong, I just don't know anything about them.
> 
> The other components seem to be a bit of a mixed bag. They saved some money going SunRace for the cassette and chainring, the cranks are mid/lower tier and cockpit (bars/grips/stem) is sub par. The drivetrain looks like lower level shimano, it'll work, but it's just meh. I hated the Monarch rear shock on a past mtb I rode, but again that's aggressive trail riding, so for a casual ride this would likely be ok.
> 
> PaBuck is absolutely right though, if you have some time to piece a bike together you will get a lot more bang for your buck than buying a complete bike.


:thumbs_up


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## boonerbrad (Nov 30, 2006)

Quietkat 1000w Apex. Front suspension,enclosed battery,hydraulic brakes and one of the toughest frames made. You can get one with single speed or a 9 speed. Rambo bikes do not compare in quality and components used.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

I’m sure that you can build a better quality bike on your own BUT that’s only assuming you know what the heck you are doing!

I’m not looking for a super tough bike, I’m not going to be pushing it to it’s limits or anything. Just something to cruise around on through the farm fields and mountain logging roads.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Ok, I’m looking at getting the Rambo R750 26 G4. I had the specs I like (26” tires, Mid-drive motor, hidden derailer in rear hub, 750w) however one thing that concerns me is the 19” frame size. I’m 6’4” 215 lbs, will this be too small?


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

Do you have a dealer close by to test one out? If not take the drive to do so

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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

deer310sg said:


> Do you have a dealer close by to test one out? If not take the drive to do so
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


He only has one model in stock, the R750 XC


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

pabuck said:


> Ok, I’m looking at getting the Rambo R750 26 G4. I had the specs I like (26” tires, Mid-drive motor, hidden derailer in rear hub, 750w) however one thing that concerns me is the 19” frame size. I’m 6’4” 215 lbs, will this be too small?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Im 6'3 240 and my Rambo fits me just fine.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

5'10" 170 - what frame should I consider - seems most common options are 17" & 19"....I see some variations, but things start to get crazy


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## boonerbrad (Nov 30, 2006)

5'10" should get the 17" frame. 6'3" should get the 19" frame.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

pabuck said:


> Can you pm me a build sheet with what I need to buy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would build this before buying a Rambo 750. Better frame, better brakes, front shocks, wheels, drive train, battery, motor...everything. The battery that came with my 750 quit working after a months use in IL. I believe the cold weather fried it. Rambo did send me another to replace it. The replacement came straight from China, no name on the batteries, no description, no warning labels, nothin. Its built with the cheapest components available. However, i do like the geared hub.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Teemster said:


> I would build this before buying a Rambo 750. Better frame, better brakes, front shocks, wheels, drive train, battery, motor...everything. The battery that came with my 750 quit working after a months use in IL. I believe the cold weather fried it. Rambo did send me another to replace it. The replacement came straight from China, no name on the batteries, no description, no warning labels, nothin. Its built with the cheapest components available. However, i do like the geared hub.
> 
> View attachment 7096331


What does this cost?


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

For about $1200 you can have the Bike shop in state college do a conversion on an existing bike if you don't want to take it on yourself.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> would you include the Backcou Mule as a bike with crap components?
> 
> Joe


For a nearly $5k price. Yes. It's all low end components. I have no idea how they can charge that much for that bike.

Compare to comparable nonfat Trek @ link it's not even close. No name or low grade components vs Upper end or top of the line. 

All of the companies that are marketing towards hunters/backcountry types know that they are working with people who are more interested in camo than bikes and charge accordingly.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

pabuck said:


> Ok, I’m looking at getting the Rambo R750 26 G4. I had the specs I like (26” tires, Mid-drive motor, hidden derailer in rear hub, 750w) however one thing that concerns me is the 19” frame size. I’m 6’4” 215 lbs, will this be too small?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yup


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

Teemster said:


> If u have $2500 to spend, i would build one. You will end up with a WAY better bike. I have a Rambo 750, its a walmart bike with a bafang motor on it. All the components are lacking in quality compared to what youd get building your own at that price.


This. I have a Rambo 750. Love the power, but it's durability is LACKING. And I go easy on it..


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

Teemster said:


> I would build this before buying a Rambo 750.....Its built with the cheapest components available. However, i do like the geared hub.


Geared hub is very nice, but I'm having a heck of a time with it. It's a proprietary axle and axle nut size, and I can't get the nut tight enough (even with chain tensioners) to keep the axle from slipping. Stripped the axle nut and its some crazy 13/16 size or something, you can only get it from Sturmey Archer.

I'd rather deal with a derailer hanging down, at least I can work on the damn thing.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Wow, soooo many mixed reviews. Makes my head spin! 

I understand the “Build your Own” but I have no knowledge or experience building bikes. 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I hear ya’ Buck...I have two buddies, one has 750 Apex, the other 1000 Apex, they both love them....they split the cost of the cart and share it...the 750 hauled two doe, his stand, and pack out at the same time with no issue...that was in Lancaster County...so he wasn’t dealing with mountains. My other buddy with the 1000 runs his in Carbon county and puts it through some paces up and down the mountains. 

They both enjoy their bikes and don’t have any complaints. I am thinking if your not a performance rider and more of a utility rider than the standard components on the Apex might be fine.

I have heard a lot of buzz about the 2020 Apex, specifically the updated forks and brakes as noticeable positive upgrades. In addition, they are offering and HD 1500 motor...might be overkill; not sure?

There is also the notion of what PA is going to approve. As I understand it now there are NO restrictions with regard to motor size on Ebikes. I’ve heard rumors that restrictions are coming, but I’ve heard rumors for 10 years that Sunday hunting was coming too and we know where that has finally ended up.

Who really knows though...I’ve been following along many of these threads. The Apex seems to be the one model that receives the most consistent positive reviews from hunters. Plus if you work directly with QK you can build the bike you want and for $225 can put 30-miles on it, in 30-days and return it for a full refund (less the $225) if it doesn’t meet your needs. That’s what my buddies did, they put all 30-miles in in the Poconos so they could climb a few hills. Both kept their bikes. 

I asked why they “threw away” $225 for the trial, they both said that all of their research yielded low resale values on the bikes and both were worried if the bikes didn’t perform to their standards, they’d take a beating way worse than $225 selling them afterwards. Shipping alone is over $200....I do see QK is offering 15% off and free shipping on their 2019 models including the 1000w Apex AND you can still use the $225 trial...makes it a little more interesting consideration.

Just a little of what I’ve gathered.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> I hear ya’ Buck...I have two buddies, one has 750 Apex, the other 1000 Apex, they both love them....they split the cost of the cart and share it...the 750 hauled two doe, his stand, and pack out at the same time with no issue...that was in Lancaster County...so he wasn’t dealing with mountains. My other buddy with the 1000 runs his in Carbon county and puts it through some paces up and down the mountains.
> 
> They both enjoy their bikes and don’t have any complaints. I am thinking if your not a performance rider and more of a utility rider than the standard components on the Apex might be fine.
> 
> ...


Thanks but $4k is just not on my price range.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

They’ve been on camofire a few times , much lower


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I can pretty much guarantee that there will be 750w restriction.


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

pabuck said:


> Wow, soooo many mixed reviews. Makes my head spin!
> 
> I understand the “Build your Own” but I have no knowledge or experience building bikes.
> 
> ...


It's tough in your price range. You truly get what you pay for.

If you can get a 750W mid drive rambo on sale, I'd buy one. If I had more coin to spend, I'd be looking at an FLX Trail Gen 4 (fat tires are overrated and a hunting-marketing gimmick IMO).


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

IrBrute said:


> I'd say it has a mix of some good and some bad. Like the Fork, I wouldn't trust that thing the way I ride, but for a casual ride it would likely be alright. It looks like it does have hydraulic brakes, but I'm not familiar with that brand of brakes. They are Quad piston which should be strong, I just don't know anything about them.
> 
> The other components seem to be a bit of a mixed bag. They saved some money going SunRace for the cassette and chainring, the cranks are mid/lower tier and cockpit (bars/grips/stem) is sub par. The drivetrain looks like lower level shimano, it'll work, but it's just meh. I hated the Monarch rear shock on a past mtb I rode, but again that's aggressive trail riding, so for a casual ride this would likely be ok.
> 
> PaBuck is absolutely right though, if you have some time to piece a bike together you will get a lot more bang for your buck than buying a complete bike.


A few things in this post that can be debated. First, the Mule has no rear suspension, so I'm not sure what the post was referring to with respect to that. As far as the front fork, (hunting) eBikes are not for technical riding or rock hopping. They are meant to get you from point A to point B loaded down with gear. So a decent mid range fork is all that is needed. So it goes for things like stems, bars, etc. Top end components just aren't needed in those places. The Shimano drivetrain on the Mule is mid level, not lower. What the post didn't mention are the two MOST important components of an eBike, the motor and the battery, the motor being most important. The Bakcou Mule uses what is probably the best motor on the market, the Bafang Ultra. This motor is all metal with heavy duty gears and has a torque sensor. Bakcou also uses Panasonic L-ion batteries, which are among the best.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

dougell said:


> I can pretty much guarantee that there will be 750w restriction.


There was discussion in July...(see page 38)
https://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationResources/MediaReportsSurveys/Documents/2019 July Minutes.pdf

I can't seem to locate the "briefing paper" that Raup references anywhere.

It was discussed again at the 1/25/20 meeting (proposal in bold below).....but don't see it on the April agenda. If it doesn't make the April meeting for a vote, under current regulation, it is unlawful to use or operate any type of e-bike on State game lands, unless used by individuals with mobility disabilities. As I understand it, State Forest and State Park land is different because of the recreational trail systems established for hikers and bikers.

*The Commission is proposing to amend §§ 131.2, 135.2 and 135.41 to define and allow use of Class I e-bikes on State game lands in the same manner as traditional bicycles. These devices will be limited to two-wheeled bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of 750 watts (1 h.p.) or less that provide assistance only when the rider is actively pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour or less that provide assistance only when the rider is actively pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour. The changes will not authorize use of any device that is equipped with a throttle or that provides any degree of assistance from an electric motor when the rider is not actively pedaling. It is important to note that these amendments do not eliminate current statutory restrictions prohibiting the possession of loaded firearms in, on or against vehicles propelled by mechanical power under section 2503 of the act.*


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

MIbowhunter49 said:


> It's tough in your price range. You truly get what you pay for.
> 
> If you can get a 750W mid drive rambo on sale, I'd buy one. If I had more coin to spend, I'd be looking at an FLX Trail Gen 4 (fat tires are overrated and a hunting-marketing gimmick IMO).


Have you ever taken a bike across a soft mud field or sandy creekebed? I am wondering if that is the genesis for the "fat tire phenomena" on the Ebikes marketed specifically for hunters? My Slash handles any trail with no issue whatsoever, but in mud and/or sand, the tires cut in quickly...I've always wondered if fat tires would slow that enough to allow me to get though those features easier? Just wondering. I don't have an Ebike, and likely won't get one unless I build one with my son. I have plenty of frames from some old Gary Fisher's, Cannondale, and Treks to start with and I'd like to think that I am mechanically enough inclined to get one together. Probably be a cool project to work on with my son too. Who knows, I really don't need another hobby.

Joe


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

Olink said:


> A few things in this post that can be debated. First, the Mule has no rear suspension, so I'm not sure what the post was referring to with respect to that. As far as the front fork, (hunting) eBikes are not for technical riding or rock hopping. They are meant to get you from point A to point B loaded down with gear. So a decent mid range fork is all that is needed. So it goes for things like stems, bars, etc. Top end components just aren't needed in those places. The Shimano drivetrain on the Mule is mid level, not lower. What the post didn't mention are the two MOST important components of an eBike, the motor and the battery, the motor being most important. The Bakcou Mule uses what is probably the best motor on the market, the Bafang Ultra. This motor is all metal with heavy duty gears and has a torque sensor. Bakcou also uses Panasonic L-ion batteries, which are among the best.


But you're paying nearly top end prices for the Mule. Compare it to a similarly priced Trek and while you don't get fat tires, you do get Eagle and a Rockshox fork. Night and day comparisons. Fat tires aren't worth that much.

That fork while an air fork, is a low end air fork (probably <$200). A mid level fork would be the Bluto. High end would be a Wren.

The drive train is a budget drive train. What good is that high end motor if you can't get power to the wheels. The drivetrain will wear out quickly with that much power applied, it's not even one of Shimano's ebike drivetrains, just a basic mountain bike setup. None of these hunting market ebikes are even heard of in the cycling world. IMO if everyone here would look beyond these hunting brands, you would realize how much markup there is because it has a big buck on it. 

His rear suspension comment was regarding the specs on their full suspension model, the Storm.

If you want to spend $4k on an fat ebike, buy a low end Beargrease and convert it yourself, or have someone do it. It'd be 10x the bike.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Quicksliver said:


> But you're paying nearly top end prices for the Mule. Compare it to a similarly priced Trek and while you don't get fat tires, you do get Eagle and a Rockshox fork. Night and day comparisons. Fat tires aren't worth that much.
> 
> That fork while an air fork, is a low end air fork (probably <$200). A mid level fork would be the Bluto. High end would be a Wren.
> 
> ...


Considering the perceived purpose of an Ebike marketed specifically for hunters...again I am imagining a performance vs. utility paradigm...what specifically would $4k get you in the performance world that would have enough crossover appeal to the hunter; for lack of a better way to say it, something ready to roll out of the box/shop. In my cursory review and understanding it doesn't seem like much. I've seen 250wt Trek systems topping out at more than $7K.

Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.

Joe


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Like I said,750w will be the max on SGL and it's already the max on state forests.For simple transportation going up hills and on level ground,750w is plenty.I've yet to find a single hill that I wanted to go up,where I had to exert any effort.I'll be honest in that the Rambp I bought is cheesy with lower level components.I paid $1500 for it so I just figured,why not.My son uses it far more than I do because he rides it to a private residential community that's about 2-3 miles from out house.You can't ride dirt bikes or ATV's there so he sues the Rambo almost every day.I'm not around when he has it out but I know my kid and I can only speculate that he isn't easy on it.To date,I haven't had one issue with it.The motor has been flawless even though it has nylon gears compared to the bafang ultra used on the Mules.My biggest complaints are that I have to put a front suspension on it and the brakes are junk so I'll have to upgrade them as well.Mine has a sturmey archer 3 speed rear hub and you do have to adjust it as the chain stretches,similar to a dirt bike.Because of the gearing,it doesn't have much of a top end so I may also get a front sprocket with a couple more teeth.I don't beat this bike.I simply use it as transportation.mostly on gas well and logging roads so it doesn't have to be race-ready.I wanted one for two reasons.I don't get much time to hunt during the week and most of the spots I hunt are fairly remote.If I blow off work early,it doesn't give me much time to walk in and hunt.If I do kill one,by the time I get it out and deal with it,I'm up all night during a work night.It isn't worth it,so I rarely hunt during the week.A bike takes a ton of time off.What used to be a 35-40 minute hike now takes 10 minutes.If we do kill one.I take the bike right to the deer,quarter it up in 10 minutes and make it back to my truck in less time than it would take me to walk back,even if I didn't kill something.These bikes are not ATV's or dirt bikes but they're very useful tools for use on remote areas where you have to walk in.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Considering the perceived purpose of an Ebike marketed specifically for hunters...again I am imagining a performance vs. utility paradigm...what specifically would $4k get you in the performance world that would have enough crossover appeal to the hunter; for lack of a better way to say it, something ready to roll out of the box/shop. In my cursory review and understanding it doesn't seem like much. I've seen 250wt Trek systems topping out at more than $7K.
> 
> Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.
> 
> Joe


Ha, yeah I didn't notice that that one I linked yesterday was only 250w. Sorry about that. The issue is that there isn't much on the market in the fat ebike realm and this lack of competition allows these companies to overcharge for what they are providing. Unfortunately it's a very niche market that the big bike companies aren't interested in. It's been hard enough to keep them involved in fat bikes. Most hunters would be best suited following mn5503's lead and doing their own conversion if they want a fat ebike. I have no doubt you could do it with all your homebrew work that I've seen over the years.

IMO most hunters would do fine with a standard e mountain bike and don't need the fat wheels. People think that they can handle mud and everything else. They really don't do mud. They're awesome on softer surfaces, but a 2.3" or so would handle 95% (or more) of it just fine. I've ridden a fatbike exclusively for the last 4 years (almost 5k miles) and there are few instances where it's benefited me over any other bike. I ride it because it's fun. I've done nearly everything one can do on a bike on that fatbike, ridden Porcupine Rim in Moab, commuted, pulled my kids, Gravel Worlds and a number of other gravel races and very little of it has been better performance wise because of those tires, just more fun and mostly more challenging. I also just bought a gravel bike because I'm tired of pushing 16# of wheels around and would like to go faster again.

Not to restate things, but my biggest issue is that when hunters buy these hunting oriented ebikes, they aren't getting very much for their money. They're paying for marketing (because these companies are poorly known and let's face it, hunting sales is marketing oriented) and camouflage. What they should be trying to pay for is a bike and bike parts.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Quicksliver said:


> But you're paying nearly top end prices for the Mule. Compare it to a similarly priced Trek and while you don't get fat tires, you do get Eagle and a Rockshox fork. Night and day comparisons. Fat tires aren't worth that much.
> 
> That fork while an air fork, is a low end air fork (probably <$200). A mid level fork would be the Bluto. High end would be a Wren.
> 
> ...


I have a decent Haro mountain bike that I plan on converting this spring to have a a second electric bike for both my son and myself.I'm pretty sure it will be better than the Rambo.


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## boonerbrad (Nov 30, 2006)

pabuck said:


> Thanks but $4k is just not on my price range.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well; how about 3k? 19's are very close to that not 4k.


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## boonerbrad (Nov 30, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Have you ever taken a bike across a soft mud field or sandy creekebed? I am wondering if that is the genesis for the "fat tire phenomena" on the Ebikes marketed specifically for hunters? My Slash handles any trail with no issue whatsoever, but in mud and/or sand, the tires cut in quickly...I've always wondered if fat tires would slow that enough to allow me to get though those features easier? Just wondering. I don't have an Ebike, and likely won't get one unless I build one with my son. I have plenty of frames from some old Gary Fisher's, Cannondale, and Treks to start with and I'd like to think that I am mechanically enough inclined to get one together. Probably be a cool project to work on with my son too. Who knows, I really don't need another hobby.
> 
> Joe


Joe mud is very rideable with the 4.5" fat tires on my Quietkat but will drain the battery much quicker. I cross a pretty wide creek to one stand i hunt and it will be about a foot deep and 20-25 yards across some years. Slow and easy is no problem and no issues with water being over the mid drive motor on my QK after three seasons. The QK 1000 is a beast and if you get the apex the components are much higher end than basic e bikes. Thus the added cost. The new 2020 front fork suspension is a big upgrade.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

pabuck said:


> What does this cost?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$3k...or cheaper if you can find a good used bike around you. He started with a new Motobecane Sturgis Bullet i believe and said it cost $3k.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

pabuck said:


> Wow, soooo many mixed reviews. Makes my head spin!
> 
> I understand the “Build your Own” but I have no knowledge or experience building bikes.
> 
> ...


Its not that difficult, if you have any mechanical knowledge im sure you could finger it out. Or buy the bike of your choice, then the motor kit from Luna, and take it to a local bike shop to put together. Youd still have a better bike at a lower price. The prices that they (The outdoor ebike companies) are charging for what u get is nuts.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I try to go around mud so I can't say how they perform in anything but small mud puddles.They do very well in several inches of snow however.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

dougell said:


> Like I said,750w will be the max on SGL and it's already the max on state forests.For simple transportation going up hills and on level ground,750w is plenty.I've yet to find a single hill that I wanted to go up,where I had to exert any effort.I'll be honest in that the Rambp I bought is cheesy with lower level components.I paid $1500 for it so I just figured,why not.My son uses it far more than I do because he rides it to a private residential community that's about 2-3 miles from out house.You can't ride dirt bikes or ATV's there so he sues the Rambo almost every day.I'm not around when he has it out but I know my kid and I can only speculate that he isn't easy on it.To date,I haven't had one issue with it.The motor has been flawless even though it has nylon gears compared to the bafang ultra used on the Mules.My biggest complaints are that I have to put a front suspension on it and the brakes are junk so I'll have to upgrade them as well.Mine has a sturmey archer 3 speed rear hub and you do have to adjust it as the chain stretches,similar to a dirt bike.Because of the gearing,it doesn't have much of a top end so I may also get a front sprocket with a couple more teeth.I don't beat this bike.I simply use it as transportation.mostly on gas well and logging roads so it doesn't have to be race-ready.I wanted one for two reasons.I don't get much time to hunt during the week and most of the spots I hunt are fairly remote.If I blow off work early,it doesn't give me much time to walk in and hunt.If I do kill one,by the time I get it out and deal with it,I'm up all night during a work night.It isn't worth it,so I rarely hunt during the week.A bike takes a ton of time off.What used to be a 35-40 minute hike now takes 10 minutes.If we do kill one.I take the bike right to the deer,quarter it up in 10 minutes and make it back to my truck in less time than it would take me to walk back,even if I didn't kill something.These bikes are not ATV's or dirt bikes but they're very useful tools for use on remote areas where you have to walk in.


Get the Luna Black Box, it will let you re-program your motor and unlock all that it has to offer. Runs about $150.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

I think I’ve decided on the Rambo Pursuit 750w 26”


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## dickeybob (Aug 29, 2016)

Camofire has them now


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

shdw633 said:


> Get the Luna Black Box, it will let you re-program your motor and unlock all that it has to offer. Runs about $150.


I thought about it but mine has a sturmey archer hub so it's kinda maxed out now.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

dougell said:


> I thought about it but mine has a sturmey archer hub so it's kinda maxed out now.


I have the 750 with the three speed as well. I thought the same thing until I realized there are 1000 watt ebikes out there right now selling with 3 speed sturmey archers on them as well. Don't get me wrong, I am not looking to get a 40 mph ebike, but I want a consistent 25 to 30 mph ebike. I will run my 750 to within 80% of it's capability and still feel I will be within safe ranges of the equipment that's on it. The programmer also allows me to reset back to original settings at any time so if I know I am going to be riding in an area of higher than normal hills I can reset back to factory settings, once finished I can put them back to the higher settings.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...-fatties-its-got-the-power-dum-dum-da-da-dum/


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

pabuck said:


> I think I’ve decided on the Rambo Pursuit 750w 26”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's going to be a bumpy ride off road. If you go slow, it's going to be an excellent choice.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

Chris1ny said:


> It's going to be a bumpy ride off road. If you go slow, it's going to be an excellent choice.


Get the front suspension with the bike and it really smooths out the ride.


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## Blackeagle1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Couple of quiet cats on sale at Camofire today


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## Huntinrough (May 12, 2018)

I bought a Rambo 750 last year on sale for $1,500, I used it all of hunting season with no issues, I mainly hunt on pretty easy trails and dirt roads and it never let me down. I do baby it and have not really stressed it out in mud. Worth every penny for my hunting application!!


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I've said this in other posts. If you do a lot of research you will find that most of the entry to mid range bikes are all built on just a couple of different frames from overseas and then just a couple of variations of Bafang mid drives or hub motors. Then they hang various levels of components on them to either raise or lower the price point.

Any ebike marketed to the hunting crowd is usually about double for the same bike from other distributors. I agree with a few others. If I'm paying $4000 for an ebike it had better be top end everything....which most of the hunting bikes are not!

I have a mid-drive fat tire and have been riding it for about 6 months and love it! 
I also just purchased a full suspension mountain bike with the a mid-drive Yamaha motor. But no throttle.
That Yamaha motor is night and day different/better/smoother than the bafang.

I also have a half done self-conversion in the basement....lots of little details to work out on a self conversion that don't show up until you get into it! You would be really lucky if you donor bike allowed you to just bolt up a kit without some DIY mods! If you want the details you can PM me.

There are also inserts that go into tires to stop flats allow for run-flat riding, I haven't researched if anyone has them for the big 4" wide tires but they have them for narrower ones.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm riding the Juggernaut Classic from here if anyone wants to see another "brand" option

https://www.biktrix.com/pages/bike-collections


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> I think I’ve decided on the Rambo Pursuit 750w 26”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Check on Ebay. They got a pretty descent deal on one with the cart, fenders, and rack for about $100 more than what's on Rambos site and another one that's a 2019 that I think is about $300 cheaper.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

ruffme said:


> There are also inserts that go into tires to stop flats allow for run-flat riding, I haven't researched if anyone has them for the big 4" wide tires but they have them for narrower ones.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/3XL-Fat-Bi...384764&hash=item522f0d5e0e:g:op4AAOSwJoBeTXD6

Mr Tuffy makes 4 inch bike tire liners. I have a set and they are worth every penny.


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## S.A.S (Apr 28, 2009)

I’ll be getting a Volt Bike Yukon. Looks like a solid bike an affordable


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

S.A.S said:


> I’ll be getting a Volt Bike Yukon. Looks like a solid bike an affordable


The price is awesome on the Yukon’s but 2 problems: 

1. They are not a mid-drive
2. They have a gear derailleur. 

But for $1700 you get hydraulic brakes and front suspension!


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't know if you all know it but if you are a veteran or active military, Rambo will give you a discount for that. I got 20% off of my bike for being a veteran. Just call them and they will give you a code to utilize....at least they did last year.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

S.A.S said:


> I’ll be getting a Volt Bike Yukon. Looks like a solid bike an affordable


M2S bikes have the same equipment and you can get it for $200 less. Great bike as well for a rear hub bike.

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/products/...rs_WR_Mh_Grg1TJFL0DydySftTpc9vXIaAkKbEALw_wcB


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## S.A.S (Apr 28, 2009)

How exactly would you “build” your own fat tire Ebike?


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## 570archer55 (Apr 1, 2008)

check out Timber Ridge. 2 wheel drive , dual 750 watt motors and a walk assisr mode if to rough going.


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## 570archer55 (Apr 1, 2008)

Timber Trail


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

pabuck said:


> Ok, I’m looking at getting the Rambo R750 26 G4. I had the specs I like (26” tires, Mid-drive motor, hidden derailer in rear hub, 750w) however one thing that concerns me is the 19” frame size. I’m 6’4” 215 lbs, will this be too small?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Way to small

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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

deadturkey said:


> Way to small
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


What is way to small? I don’t want to go above a 750w bc that is what most restrictions go up to


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

MIbowhunter49 said:


> Geared hub is very nice, but I'm having a heck of a time with it. It's a proprietary axle and axle nut size, and I can't get the nut tight enough (even with chain tensioners) to keep the axle from slipping. Stripped the axle nut and its some crazy 13/16 size or something, you can only get it from Sturmey Archer.
> 
> I'd rather deal with a derailer hanging down, at least I can work on the damn thing.


Fastenal would have it. I'd bet most hardware stores too. 

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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

pabuck said:


> Wow, soooo many mixed reviews. Makes my head spin!
> 
> I understand the “Build your Own” but I have no knowledge or experience building bikes.
> 
> ...


There are a couple mtn bikers on here that get a laugh out of these threads. Real world.....Rambo and others are >50 lbs,with cheep components. The other problem is,in the real world you will not get far in mud or snow and you won't ride on in a cut corn field very far. Sticks and leaves will get cought in the drivetrain. I doubt the performance of these bikes on real hills with no true trail to ride on. I've seen them used on one hunting show,that could have easily been done on a regular mtn bike,wouldn't have even needed a fat bike. Looks like two sizes are available, to the 6'3" guy,if you ride in a straight line a 19" frame would work. A good bike shop would be able to outfit your bike to eBike ability. I use a regular fatbike to hunt. I don't see a need to own a eBike version. I don't buy into the sweat thing.

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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

12-Ringer said:


> Considering the perceived purpose of an Ebike marketed specifically for hunters...again I am imagining a performance vs. utility paradigm...what specifically would $4k get you in the performance world that would have enough crossover appeal to the hunter; for lack of a better way to say it, something ready to roll out of the box/shop. In my cursory review and understanding it doesn't seem like much. I've seen 250wt Trek systems topping out at more than $7K.
> 
> Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.
> 
> Joe


Top end Trek tops our at 7k and more. The battery,motor and drivetrain are what will keep it moving. They also have Bocsh motors and top end full suspension.Would you spend 4k on something to use 10 times a year? I would never own a eBike and even know the limits of my fatbike in the real world. 

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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

I found this article on building your own e-bike. I have a nice Trek mountain bike, looks like for about $1100 I could convert it.


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/05/25/recipe-for-a-badass-diy-electric-mountain-bike/


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

dougell said:


> Like I said,750w will be the max on SGL and it's already the max on state forests.For simple transportation going up hills and on level ground,750w is plenty.I've yet to find a single hill that I wanted to go up,where I had to exert any effort.I'll be honest in that the Rambp I bought is cheesy with lower level components.I paid $1500 for it so I just figured,why not.My son uses it far more than I do because he rides it to a private residential community that's about 2-3 miles from out house.You can't ride dirt bikes or ATV's there so he sues the Rambo almost every day.I'm not around when he has it out but I know my kid and I can only speculate that he isn't easy on it.To date,I haven't had one issue with it.The motor has been flawless even though it has nylon gears compared to the bafang ultra used on the Mules.My biggest complaints are that I have to put a front suspension on it and the brakes are junk so I'll have to upgrade them as well.Mine has a sturmey archer 3 speed rear hub and you do have to adjust it as the chain stretches,similar to a dirt bike.Because of the gearing,it doesn't have much of a top end so I may also get a front sprocket with a couple more teeth.I don't beat this bike.I simply use it as transportation.mostly on gas well and logging roads so it doesn't have to be race-ready.I wanted one for two reasons.I don't get much time to hunt during the week and most of the spots I hunt are fairly remote.If I blow off work early,it doesn't give me much time to walk in and hunt.If I do kill one,by the time I get it out and deal with it,I'm up all night during a work night.It isn't worth it,so I rarely hunt during the week.A bike takes a ton of time off.What used to be a 35-40 minute hike now takes 10 minutes.If we do kill one.I take the bike right to the deer,quarter it up in 10 minutes and make it back to my truck in less time than it would take me to walk back,even if I didn't kill something.These bikes are not ATV's or dirt bikes but they're very useful tools for use on remote areas where you have to walk in.


In reality, it takes about the same time to walk in if your walk is <30 min. If you start in the dark you have to attach your light, because the cold weather will effect you battery. Get the bike off the truck,get the trailer out of the back,get it hooked up to the bike. Make sure your gear won't fall off and head out. If you just jump on the bike with a bow,yes you could save time during daylight. 

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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

Huntinrough said:


> I bought a Rambo 750 last year on sale for $1,500, I used it all of hunting season with no issues, I mainly hunt on pretty easy trails and dirt roads and it never let me down. I do baby it and have not really stressed it out in mud. Worth every penny for my hunting application!!


One real world Rambo bike review 

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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Deadturkey, I think we understand your position; NO Ebike, however the OP is looking into and asked the crowd WHICH ONE. If I read your input properly, you don’t even own one, so not sure how much you can contribute to answering the OPs question.

Thanks

Joe


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

12-Ringer said:


> Deadturkey, I think we understand your position; NO Ebike, however the OP is looking into and asked the crowd WHICH ONE. If I read your input properly, you don’t even own one, so not sure how much you can contribute to answering the OPs question.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Joe


 You can learn from mine and other real mtn biker post. Be realistic in what you need vs want. You don't like what I post....too bad.

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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

deadturkey said:


> You can learn from mine and other real mtn biker post. Be realistic in what you need vs want. You don't like what I post....too bad.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


LOL...what makes you think folks asking these questions aren’t “real” mountain bikers? There is a distant difference between performance and utility bikes...a “real” mountain biker would know that

Not like we have to break out a ruler or anything, it’s not a contest...but not sure “real” mountain bikers ride fat bikes either....at least not in our club....my custom Jekyll’s do just fine.

This is a thread about ebikes for hunting...I didn’t think I’d have to point out the obvious difference between a pedestrian fat bike and an Ebike, but you learn something everyday I guess.

Good luck this year

Joe


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

12-Ringer said:


> LOL...what makes you think folks asking these questions aren’t “real” mountain bikers? There is a distant difference between performance and utility bikes...a “real” mountain biker would know that
> 
> Not like we have to break out a ruler or anything, it’s not a contest...but not sure “real” mountain bikers ride fat bikes either....at least not in our club....my custom Jekyll’s do just fine.
> 
> ...


Custom jekyll are for phags

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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Enjoy your week long vacation...buddy!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry to everyone else on the thread for that bit of non-sense.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Not looking or a hard core mountain bike, just a bike to navigate through the woods (doesn’t need to be 20mph) to and from hunting locations. Not going to be used everyday.


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## S.A.S (Apr 28, 2009)

pabuck said:


> The price is awesome on the Yukon’s but 2 problems:
> 
> 1. They are not a mid-drive
> 2. They have a gear derailleur.
> ...


What’s a gear derailleur?


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

pabuck said:


> Not looking or a hard core mountain bike, just a bike to navigate through the woods (doesn’t need to be 20mph) to and from hunting locations. Not going to be used everyday.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The rambo 750 will fit your needs. That's all i use mine for. Riding close to stand sights, checking trail cams, and setting stands. 
One of the best investments made! 
Mine was a demo model. 1.3 miles on it. Came with fenders, rear rack, rear double saddle bags, camo. The rambo trailer, hitch kit. It was a 2019 bike. Charcoal color. I would suggest the front suspension on whatever model it would be, fender kit, trailer. 
Stock seat sucks. Gonna upgrade that before season start.

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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

12-Ringer said:


> Enjoy your week long vacation...buddy!


:thumbs_up


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the best that I can share at this point...

I have spent some time since the first ebike thread opened a while back (the one where Steve detailed his DIY build) with "the other side" (the performance Ebikers); for the longest time our mountain bike group turned our collective noses up at the Ebikers, much like vertical bow hunters do/did to the crossbow hunters...easy way out, less effort, crowding the woods/trails, ruining it for everyone....and so on and so on and son on....anyway, so hear it goes.

Let's forget about brands for a moment and talk about what I have gathered about a quality utility bike; for the purposes of this post, I will define utility as design with a primary purpose to move/haul, with stability, a load from point A to B, wherever that might be (uphill, dowhinill; through mud, snow, water).

First and foremost, there were two relatively unanimous opinions; motor and battery. Almost all recommend a 1000wt brushless mid-drive motor as the motor of choice for this endeavor. There were several different reasons, but if I looked for commonalities among the opinions: power under load (hauling, carrying, and inclines) was a consistent concern with the 700wt. Several also mentioned a primary shortcoming of the 750wt motor is the draw it puts on the battery under the same conditions as the 1000wt. Mentioning the battery, just about everyone I spoke to said the battery is more important than the motor and to be warry of any off-brand batteries. Very high praise was offered for Samsung and Panasonic batteries, almost everyone identified 48 volt, 11.6ah batteries as the size of choice to pair with a 1000wt motor.

There were different opinions offered about breaking systems, but the majority said for bikes being used for this function, hydraulic brakes are a must. Apparently, there are enough options here to make my head spin, but 2-piston hydraulic breaks were a common recommendation. 
Lots of different opinions on frames, but the bottom line was it needs to FIT the rider…many I spoke with reported far too many hunters, buy their bikes sight unseen, often resulting in bikes that may not be properly sized for the rider. Aluminum alloy was virtually the unanimous choice of materials for the frame and also unanimous was the need for some kind of hydraulic suspension system, minimally on the forks.

Interestingly the group was split almost 50/50 on the tire issue….some mentioned no need at all for the “fat-tire” (4”+), others almost said it was a necessity; especially if there will be any riding across plowed fields. EVERYONE said, no tire size is a guarantee against getting stuck in mud or sand. All reported the heavier, fatter tires drain batteries faster that smaller lighter tires. All reported fenders as almost being a must, unless you want to be covered in mud.

I had the opportunity to look and test a few, everything from Treks and Cannondale’s, to Quiet Kat, Rambo and Prowler. I can say of those I had the opportunity to physically see and ride, THAT WOULD BEST FIT THE UTILITLY DEFINITION I PROVIDED AT THE BEGINNING, I was most impressed with the E-Mojo 1000W Prowler. It was smooth, comfortable, and easy to navigate on a rather challenging trail and whipped across a cut cornfield much easier than a couple others I tried. By the way, if a NEO owner lets you try their bike, be sure to tell them you’re taking it across a cut cornfield (lol). It was all good, but poor guy looked like someone would have to take him to the emergency room.

Something else I didn’t realize, transporting the bikes. With the exception of a few of the super high-end performance Ebikes, most were HEAVY 60lbs.+. I have a Yakima Full-tilt that I use for my regular mountain bikes, but I don’t think that would get it done or more specifically, I would be comfortable transporting it on the Yak. 

I know this is a lot, but it’s what I dug up from the web and a few hard core Ebikers. I’m sure there are plenty of other opinions/recommendations. I know some States have regulations or are proposing regulations governing Ebike usage, so it would be important to look into that if you’re considering buying one. I know here in PA, there is a proposal to limit to 7550wt motor and pedal assist only, no throttle for usage on State Forest and State Game Lands.

Hope this helps a little.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> Here's the best that I can share at this point...
> 
> I have spent some time since the first ebike thread opened a while back (the one where Steve detailed his DIY build) with "the other side" (the performance Ebikers); for the longest time our mountain bike group turned our collective noses up at the Ebikers, much like vertical bow hunters do/did to the crossbow hunters...easy way out, less effort, crowding the woods/trails, ruining it for everyone....and so on and so on and son on....anyway, so hear it goes.
> 
> ...


Great, detailed summery of what to consider. 

The Rambo 750 that I purchased new back in December is plenty of bike for what I need. It does exactly what I need it to do. Get my 240 pound butt over a mile back in the woods, and up a good sized mountain road. Much easier and faster than walking. I will say that I thought the bike would do much more. Kinda like riding a motorcycle.... using the throttle to go everywhere. Found out quick that’s not how these things work. You have to still peddle, but not all out like you would on a regular bike. I’d say probably around 25% effort at most. Maybe the 1000w would push me a little more up the hills, but so far I’m content with the 750. I do recommend the front shock upgrade. 


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

https://www.ebikejoy.com/collection...bike-usa-gb750-fat-tire-folding-electric-bike
look at this bike if you want ometing reasonably priced and powerful Has a better battery , horn, fenders, lights and hydraulic brakes. Had one for while but it was too big for me. If you are over 5 8 should be perfect.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Got about 30 miles of seat time on the Fat tire this weekend. It was muddy, wet and very soft snow.
I thought I'd have a crack at getting down the snowmobile trails but no go! The snow was too soft and too deep.
I aired way down hoping that would help, but still too soft. I could make it 10 yards then hit a really deep soft spot and I'd die!

I came to one conclusion, I would not want a mountain bike on snowy trails or with snow on the ground. The control and ride of the fat tire in these conditions can't be beat hands down!

But for other conditions a mountain bike with 2" tires would do. 

So how to accomplish a bike for these conditions. Two wheel sets, one fat one skinny or two bikes!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

How are you guys transporting your bikes from one place to another? Save the smart-arse (riding them)...you guys know what I mean.

Trying to get another look at the Prowler tomorrow. The ride was light years better than the Rambo and noticeably better than the 2019 Apex


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I have a Yakima Holdup 2. Had to do two mods to get it to work with fat tires.
1. There is a plastic hoop around the front wheel well. Took it off and 4" tire fits.
2. Replaced the back wheel strap with longer version. Works great.

Be careful shopping for racks, a lot of them are NOT fender friendly.

Then if it's summer and the roads are dry I put it in the hitch like a normal hitch rack.
In the winter the roads are wet here with a lot of salt so I like to get the bike in the bed.

I messed around for a couple months and looked at all the bed rack options then I decided to try to do something with the Yakima. So one day I threw it in the bed to eyeball it up and put the bike on it. It was amazingly stable!
So I've been doing that ever since! Just drove 2 hours with it in the bed and it didn't move an inch.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

rutman said:


> Great, detailed summery of what to consider.
> I will say that I thought the bike would do much more. Kinda like riding a motorcycle.... using the throttle to go everywhere. Found out quick that’s not how these things work.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny you mention this as that was my initial impression. As I stated above, we mountain bike regularly, nothing like traversing Whistler, but we have TONS of great trails in the PA, DE, MD areas. We would encounter Ebiker's and the "cheater", "poser" mentality would creep in as I always thought they cruised along, NOT SO. My new opinion is that they are no less adventure seekers, but not as much exercise enthusiasts. With that said though, I do have a new appreciation for the exercise that is involved.

I would completely agree with rutman in that I was feeling about 25% of what I was expecting to feel while pedaling, but what I will say, as someone with plenty of mountain bike experience, even that 25% felt like way MORE than what it takes to run my custom Jekyll. Yes, I understand it is a high quality carbon bike that comes in around 25lbs. compared to the 66lbs the guy told me his Pursuit weighed. Yes, I could notice the difference, not sure folks who don't ride mountain bikes would though? If I exerted the same level of energy that it took to get the Pursuit moving with pedal assist on my Jekyll, I'd be flying around the hills.

I too was expecting to hit the throttle and go, don't get me wrong; it went, but almost felt as thought I *needed* to pedal for a boost or something. Best I can say was it was a bit of a strange sensation. 

A guy as a 2020 Mule that I am going to see today. He was telling me you can adjust the motor from 750-1000, which could have some appeal to differentiate when a user is on private vs. State land. I'll let everyone know what that looks like.

Joe


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I was looking at the Mules at the Harrisburg sports show.They actually can be adjusted to 1500W.Because it has that capability with the touch of a screen,I'm close to 100% positive that it would not be legal on state land.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

At some want to replace with receiver hauler.









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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

12-Ringer said:


> Funny you mention this as that was my initial impression. As I stated above, we mountain bike regularly, nothing like traversing Whistler, but we have TONS of great trails in the PA, DE, MD areas. We would encounter Ebiker's and the "cheater", "poser" mentality would creep in as I always thought they cruised along, NOT SO. My new opinion is that they are no less adventure seekers, but not as much exercise enthusiasts. With that said though, I do have a new appreciation for the exercise that is involved.
> 
> I would completely agree with rutman in that I was feeling about 25% of what I was expecting to feel while pedaling, but what I will say, as someone with plenty of mountain bike experience, even that 25% felt like way MORE than what it takes to run my custom Jekyll. Yes, I understand it is a high quality carbon bike that comes in around 25lbs. compared to the 66lbs the guy told me his Pursuit weighed. Yes, I could notice the difference, not sure folks who don't ride mountain bikes would though? If I exerted the same level of energy that it took to get the Pursuit moving with pedal assist on my Jekyll, I'd be flying around the hills.
> 
> ...


No offense, and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it is kind of like the cross-bow vertical bow argument. Who cares what you shoot, you are out in the woods partaking in a sport.

Same thing with ebike vs. non ebike argument. Who cares! I'm old and every joint in my body has arthritis and damage! An ebike gets me off the couch. I rode single track winter trails all winter long. How many 60+ mountain bikers ride trails all year round in Mn?

So, hate them or not, I don't care, it gets me off the couch in the dead of winter and outside doing something!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

ruffme said:


> No offense, and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it is kind of like the cross-bow vertical bow argument. Who cares what you shoot, you are out in the woods partaking in a sport.
> 
> Same thing with ebike vs. non ebike argument. Who cares! I'm old and every joint in my body has arthritis and damage! An ebike gets me off the couch. I rode single track winter trails all winter long. How many 60+ mountain bikers ride trails all year round in Mn?
> 
> So, hate them or not, I don't care, it gets me off the couch in the dead of winter and outside doing something!


No hijacking - I agree 100%...whatever gets people out and keeps them there..the guys were great, more than willing to talk my ear off and let me try their bikes, can't really get much better than that....I think just like the crossbow issue, the primary concern for our group (as a collective, it never really bothered me much) was the increased traffic. We had a few areas, although public, never saw another biker or hiker other than our group. We could set up races, etc...for fun, then all of sudden there was an influx of Ebikers back there...really not a big deal, it wasn't our place to start with, but sort of felt that way...probably would have been just as bothered if they weren't Ebikers that someone found the spot, the Ebike just gave an obvious complaint (lol)

Joe


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I always through mine in the back and tied it down like a dirt bike.It's heavy but not too heavy to handle.I plan on getting a second one for my son so I ordered a Rambo rack but they changed the design and the new one won't be out til the end of April.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

dougell said:


> I always through mine in the back and tied it down like a dirt bike.It's heavy but not too heavy to handle.I plan on getting a second one for my son so I ordered a Rambo rack but they changed the design and the new one won't be out til the end of April.


Looked at those also. Reviews were all across the board. Do you know what changes they made?

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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

12-Ringer said:


> No hijacking - I agree 100%...whatever gets people out and keeps them there..the guys were great, more than willing to talk my ear off and let me try their bikes, can't really get much better than that....I think just like the crossbow issue, the primary concern for our group (as a collective, it never really bothered me much) was the increased traffic. We had a few areas, although public, never saw another biker or hiker other than our group. We could set up races, etc...for fun, then all of sudden there was an influx of Ebikers back there...really not a big deal, it wasn't our place to start with, but sort of felt that way...probably would have been just as bothered if they weren't Ebikers that someone found the spot, the Ebike just gave an obvious complaint (lol)
> 
> Joe


Again,just like the crossbows,where you hunt can vary greatly.I can see people opposing both in the more urban areas but in this part of the state,you rarely see another human.I hunt an area of state forest that's bordered by some private land with a bunch of camps.It was a brutal,steep hike to get to where we hunted.The guys in the camps would take 4 wheelers to the top from their end.That wouldn't bother me but they used to put around all day on the state forest,essentially road hunting from them.It was so remote and this district only has two rangers that it was never enforced.I actually stopped hunting deer there for that reason.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

deer310sg said:


> Looked at those also. Reviews were all across the board. Do you know what changes they made?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


I have no clue.A pro shop not far from here just started carrying Rambos.I had them order me a rack a few weeks ago and they just called me last week to tell me that it would be the end of April.My son races motorcross and I get tired of loading his bike in and out of my truck so I bought a dirtbike rack that goes into the hitch.It's a little sketchy with a heavy dirtbike so I don't use it very often unless we aren't going far.I though it would work good with an e-bike but the one tire sits right on one of the rungs so it doesn't work with my bike.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a spot I like to turkey hunt, but its about 1.5 miles from where I have to park...I hiked it everyday for 4 days last spring 1.5 in, 1.5 out and all sorts of running around in between. The access is easy, I take the wife, kids, and dogs in there in the summer, just long....one morning last spring I was just about to the log landing where I like to start each morning, no telling how long it took me to get in there, when I heard this strange sound behind me. I couldn't quite tell what it was, didn't sound like wildlife or human. I stepped off of the trail next to a deadfall and a few minutes later a guy cruised by on his Ebike...my wheels have been spinning ever since.

Joe


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I'll flat out admit that I'm just getting lazy and that's why I bought one.I'm 51 and still in pretty good shape but not nearly as motivated to get up early and hike 2 miles back in anymore.I still do it to make it an adventure for my son but if it wasn't for him,I wouldn't put in the effort I used to.I can also understand people hating the idea,depending on where you hunt.I rarely see another human on public land so I impact no one.I never even really minded ATV's if people just used them for transportation or for getting game out.Buzzing around all day did get on my nerves.I really don't see people doing that with an e-bike except for maybe during spring gobbler season.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

12-Ringer said:


> I have a spot I like to turkey hunt, but its about 1.5 miles from where I have to park...I hiked it everyday for 4 days last spring 1.5 in, 1.5 out and all sorts of running around in between. The access is easy, I take the wife, kids, and dogs in there in the summer, just long....one morning last spring I was just about to the log landing where I like to start each morning, no telling how long it took me to get in there, when I heard this strange sound behind me. I couldn't quite tell what it was, didn't sound like wildlife or human. I stepped off of the trail next to a deadfall and a few minutes later a guy cruised by on his Ebike...my wheels have been spinning ever since.
> 
> Joe


If you're just cruising along on a bike you can still hear a gobble.You can't do that on an ATV unless you stop.During the pre-season sometimes my son and I will saddle a couple of horses and walk way back before daylight,listening for gobblers.It's just a hassle to find a place to park with a horse trailer most places.


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## terryna (Mar 22, 2018)

stikbow208 said:


> You'll likely get some "mine's the best " replies so look for what appeals to you. I have a Rambo 750 that pulls a 300+ lb man on the cart with ease but that may not happen on steep hills. The 1000 watt motors will have more power but may not be legal in some places. Mid motors have very good torque but you will need to carry a chain repair kit because the bike is useless with a broken chain, where a rear hub drive can still be ridden with power. A front shock will be more comfortable as will a better seat.


Nice


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

12-Ringer said:


> How are you guys transporting your bikes from one place to another? Save the smart-arse (riding them)...you guys know what I mean.
> 
> Trying to get another look at the Prowler tomorrow. The ride was light years better than the Rambo and noticeably better than the 2019 Apex


1up makes a good heavy duty bike carrier. So does Thule but prepare to send quit a bit. The Thule is foldable and fender friendly. There are cheaper ones out there but make sure they can handle 65 pound bikes.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

I purchased this rack. Took it all the way to Michigan and back from Florida for a week long hunt and it did great the whole way there and back with my Rambo G3 R750.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D94B52G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Anyone ever try a TimberTrail bike? 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I never followed up yesterday...I had the opportunity to test the new 2020 MuleST 1000wt and 2 new Rambo Pursuit G4s...there was a distinct difference in all three, but there is also almost a $2k difference in price between the Mule and the Rambos as well, so keep that in mind as you read.

Yes, I said two 2020 Rambo Pursuit G4’s the only difference, one was standard, the second had upgraded suspension forks and seat post. Let me tell you, the ride was night and day different. The test was rather simple, there was a 40lb weight that he strapped to the rear rack and sent me on my way. I am 5’10” roughly 170lbs.

For those local to northern Chester County, the ride was in Woody’s Woods from the Coventryville Road lot to the radio tower which is one of the more steep climbs in this area. Walking from the lot to the tower with your gear is a rather daunting task. Believe it or not I didn’t measure the distance, but that climb has easily taken me 40-minutes with my gear, trying to get up there without dying of exhaustion.

I wanted to run all three bikes using the throttle only, I didn’t want to pedal at all to see how they handled the climb and descent. I did take a wide circle around the tower on each trip to get a feel for the bikes off of the trail. I should mention the trail to the top isn’t paved, but it’s a solid, maintained trail.

Both Rambo’s performed about the same with regard to power…I was effortlessly going up the trail, but on more than one occasion, I did get the feeling that I needed to pedal, but pedaling didn’t help the process. The bikes certainly were not struggling to go up the hill and were very stable. The brakes seemed a little sloppy, especially coming downhill, both handled the little bit of off trail with ease. The real difference between the two was in the ride itself. I think I felt every stick, stone, ditch and bump with the standard bike. It certainly wasn’t unbearable, but my wrists, elbows and rear-end took a little more than I would have expected. To say the ride was stiff would be an understatement. The bike with the shock forks and upgraded seat post, literally felt like a completely different bike. I tried to make it a point to hit the same spots and to say the shock was cut by 75% is probably another understatement; it was likely much higher than that….

The Mule was a totally different beast…it did have shock forks and seat post, which he told me were standard. The Mule went everywhere effortlessly and the ride was smooth, to be fair it was close to the Rambo with the shock absorbing forks and seat post. The difference was in the feel, while the Rambo’s made it there were times when I felt like the little train that could…in that I was pushing the bike, whereas with the Mule, it almost felt as though it had plenty more to give if I wanted to push it. To be fair, I was moving a little too fast for my comfort on the way down and the brakes on the Mule were VERY responsive. The 1000wt motor is programmable down to 750wt for applications where that distinction is a requirement. Jay told me the programming is simple (not real sure what that means). The Step Through feature of the Mule was also appealing. My first reaction was it looked like a girls bike from when I was kid; you know where the boys bikes had the high nut-crusher bar, but the girls bikes had the top part of the frame that dipped lower. I could see this being very desireable if your riding with any bit of bulk and/or heavy boots. It was comfortable to stand over at 26”, where as the Rambos were 29”. Again, I didn’t notice the stand over height as much as I did the ability to get on and off…I wasn’t wearing anything heavy as it was close to 70 degrees.

It was clear to me the Mule was the best of the bikes, whether it was $2k better; that’s probably debatable. The Mule comes standard with Air shock forks and a suspension seat posts, as well as, fenders, and rear rack. You can find it around $4400 with free shipping…the Pursuit G4 can be found around $2400 with no upgrades. The forks and seat post could likely run about $250 -$500 depending on your choice, the fenders and rear rack another, $150-$200 for an estimate total ($2800-$3100).
From what I can gather, the real difference is in the specifc components, the Mule’s Bafang Ultra M620 750w/1000w mid-drive Motor not only has all metal gears (whereas the Bafang 750W BBS02 High Torque Mid Drive of the Rambo has Teflon gears), the Ultra of the Mule also has the integrated Torque Sensor which is apparently superior with pedal assist (I did not engage). I will also note that shifting gears on the Mule was much smoother than the Rambo.

Here is link to the trail with topo lines so you can see the climb.
http://southcoventry.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Woodys-Woods-Trail-Map-2015.pdf

Links to specs for Mule and Pursuit.
https://www.bakcou.com/product-page/mule-st
https://www.rambobikes.com/rambo-pursuit-750w-26-matte-black-charcoal/

If $$ were no issue, the Mule was top of the day….how far over the top, $1600 - $1300, not sure, that’s probably up to the individual rider. The fact that you can dial that motor up or down and has all metal gearing is likely a big advantage as well.

Hope this helps.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Nice right up and that's pretty accurate.I have a Rambo and can tell you that the Mule is worth the extra money.Just the Bafang Ultra makes it worth it.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> I never followed up yesterday...I had the opportunity to test the new 2020 MuleST 1000wt and 2 new Rambo Pursuit G4s...there was a distinct difference in all three, but there is also almost a $2k difference in price between the Mule and the Rambos as well, so keep that in mind as you read.
> 
> Yes, I said two 2020 Rambo Pursuit G4’s the only difference, one was standard, the second had upgraded suspension forks and seat post. Let me tell you, the ride was night and day different. The test was rather simple, there was a 40lb weight that he strapped to the rear rack and sent me on my way. I am 5’10” roughly 170lbs.
> 
> ...




Man, great review but I think I’m going with the Timber Trail!!!


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> Man, great review but I think I’m going with the Timber Trail!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just keep in mind that hub motors have a tendency to heat up in hill country, even though they have 2 they are still hub motors and not mid drives.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> I never followed up yesterday...I had the opportunity to test the new 2020 MuleST 1000wt and 2 new Rambo Pursuit G4s...there was a distinct difference in all three, but there is also almost a $2k difference in price between the Mule and the Rambos as well, so keep that in mind as you read.
> 
> Yes, I said two 2020 Rambo Pursuit G4’s the only difference, one was standard, the second had upgraded suspension forks and seat post. Let me tell you, the ride was night and day different. The test was rather simple, there was a 40lb weight that he strapped to the rear rack and sent me on my way. I am 5’10” roughly 170lbs.
> 
> ...


Great write up and I agree with everything, just tough to spend that much on a bike to me. You can get more out of the 750 watt Rambo or any Bafang BBS02 with the Luna black box. It allows you to program the motor. https://lunacycle.com/luna-black-box-bbshd-bbs02-programmer/ 

Also Ebay is your friend when it comes to the extras for these bikes, I think the suspension fork is on there right now for around $102 and I got an over-sized Asani seat which really makes a difference in the ride for under $30. I though about the suspension seat post but it makes the seat so high it's difficult for me to get on and off the bike, especially with gear. $50 for the fender kit is on there right now and it's about $160 for the racks you would want. Don't get the standard front luggage rack if you get the suspension fork because it won't work, there is no where to attach it to the fork but they do have another model that does work which is about $80. I got mine on sale last year and all in with accessories and box I am just under $1800 and that includes the Luna black box programmer, front suspension fork, front and back racks, Asani seat , Rambo Cart, front handlebar gun rack and Dave's mud shovel front mud guard that I purchased. I will say the battery on the Mule is a BIG DEAL and though I get roughly 16 to 18 miles on a charge I will be looking for a larger battery when mine goes bad, something in a 14 to 17 mah range.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> Man, great review but I think I’m going with the Timber Trail!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have gathered a bit of info...they seem to eat batteries...I can’t find anyone that owns one, so was just digging up reviews on line. Seems like the standard battery doesn’t get the job done and many folks upgrade shortly after to the 21ma batt ($500-$700) depending on where you look.

Have you seen one in person?
Where are you getting your info from?

Thanks!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

shdw633 said:


> Great write up and I agree with everything, just tough to spend that much on a bike to me. You can get more out of the 750 watt Rambo or any Bafang BBS02 with the Luna black box. It allows you to program the motor. https://lunacycle.com/luna-black-box-bbshd-bbs02-programmer/
> 
> Also Ebay is your friend when it comes to the extras for these bikes, I think the suspension fork is on there right now for around $102 and I got an over-sized Asani seat which really makes a difference in the ride for under $30. I though about the suspension seat post but it makes the seat so high it's difficult for me to get on and off the bike, especially with gear. $50 for the fender kit is on there right now and it's about $160 for the racks you would want. Don't get the standard front luggage rack if you get the suspension fork because it won't work, there is no where to attach it to the fork but they do have another model that does work which is about $80. I got mine on sale last year and all in with accessories and box I am just under $1800 and that includes the Luna black box programmer, front suspension fork, front and back racks, Asani seat , Rambo Cart, front handlebar gun rack and Dave's mud shovel front mud guard that I purchased. I will say the battery on the Mule is a BIG DEAL and though I get roughly 16 to 18 miles on a charge I will be looking for a larger battery when mine goes bad, something in a 14 to 17 mah range.
> 
> View attachment 7103759


Which bike is that, the Pursuit?


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> Which bike is that, the Pursuit?


In this years model it would be considered the Savage but mine is a G3. I'm not sure of any differences in the G3 and Savage other than the brand of brakes, name on the tires and display. As far as the Pursuit goes, the motor motor and battery are the same as the Pursuit as is the Sturmey Archer 3 speed; however, the motor is positioned differently on the Pursuit and it has anti puncture tires and hydraulic brakes. I do like the differences between the two, especially the positioning of the motor compared to where mine is because I'm always worried I'm going to hit something with it, but I was looking to stay within a budget and the next level Rambo's push that $2500 to $3000 range and I just didn't want to spend that on a bike, especially for my first one because I didn't know how much use I would get out of it and if it was really going to get the job done. You can demo ride all you want but until you are in actual hunting conditions, i.e. riding in the dark, snow, mud, sand, water, hitting holes, stumps and limbs you don't see, dodging animals, getting thrown from the bike, battery in cold weather (that was an eye opener), etc, etc you really don't know if it's going to be something you want to continue to do. It is another dimension to hunting and you either like it or you don't....luckily I like it!! I will say one thing that surprised me is the pedaling aspect of the bike, there is not a lot of resistance in the 3 speed which makes pedaling a different experience and actually feels kind of weird to pedal at times, though the instinct of pedaling is always there while you are on the bike. This does make exercising in the off season with it a little less desirable because you can't get above 3rd gear on it. That being said I didn't want a derailleur due to the hunting in tall grass and corn fields like I do. Like I said, first bike and just didn't want to put a lot of money out there on something I wasn't sure how I would like it in the field and in actual hunting scenarios but I am very happy with the bike and think it's all I am ever going to need.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Yea, I think I’ll stick with my initial gut choice and go with the deal I got for a 2020 Rambo Pursuit G4 package (fenders, rear luggage rack, dual saddle bags & 2 wheel game cart) for $2500 delivered. Then just add the front suspension fork and better seat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

pabuck said:


> Yea, I think I’ll stick with my initial gut choice and go with the deal I got for a 2020 Rambo Pursuit G4 package (fenders, rear luggage rack, dual saddle bags & 2 wheel game cart) for $2500 delivered. Then just add the front suspension fork and better seat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's not a bad deal. Ride it for awhile and you may not want to add the front fork. I find myself locking mine out a lot.
And changing seats is pretty much a given on most new bikes.


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## hitnmiss (Jun 10, 2014)

tagged


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

For everyone out there who hunts with an e-bike, how do you transport your bow/gun along with your treestand while riding on these bikes?

Pics would be great!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Where the treestand on your back.I actually use a bowling to carry my bow but Montana scabbard makes a nice e-bike bow carrier.Anoyther option is to put a gator grip on the handle bar.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

shdw633 said:


> In this years model it would be considered the Savage but mine is a G3. I'm not sure of any differences in the G3 and Savage other than the brand of brakes, name on the tires and display. As far as the Pursuit goes, the motor motor and battery are the same as the Pursuit as is the Sturmey Archer 3 speed; however, the motor is positioned differently on the Pursuit and it has anti puncture tires and hydraulic brakes. I do like the differences between the two, especially the positioning of the motor compared to where mine is because I'm always worried I'm going to hit something with it, but I was looking to stay within a budget and the next level Rambo's push that $2500 to $3000 range and I just didn't want to spend that on a bike, especially for my first one because I didn't know how much use I would get out of it and if it was really going to get the job done. You can demo ride all you want but until you are in actual hunting conditions, i.e. riding in the dark, snow, mud, sand, water, hitting holes, stumps and limbs you don't see, dodging animals, getting thrown from the bike, battery in cold weather (that was an eye opener), etc, etc you really don't know if it's going to be something you want to continue to do. It is another dimension to hunting and you either like it or you don't....luckily I like it!! I will say one thing that surprised me is the pedaling aspect of the bike, there is not a lot of resistance in the 3 speed which makes pedaling a different experience and actually feels kind of weird to pedal at times, though the instinct of pedaling is always there while you are on the bike. This does make exercising in the off season with it a little less desirable because you can't get above 3rd gear on it. That being said I didn't want a derailleur due to the hunting in tall grass and corn fields like I do. Like I said, first bike and just didn't want to put a lot of money out there on something I wasn't sure how I would like it in the field and in actual hunting scenarios but I am very happy with the bike and think it's all I am ever going to need.


Can you elaborate on "get more out of the 750 watt"...I've looked into the Lunabox, but not sure what it would accomplish.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

dougell said:


> Where the treestand on your back.I actually use a bowling to carry my bow but Montana scabbard makes a nice e-bike bow carrier.Anoyther option is to put a gator grip on the handle bar.


I 'll have to check out that montana carrier.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

pabuck said:


> For everyone out there who hunts with an e-bike, how do you transport your bow/gun along with your treestand while riding on these bikes?
> 
> Pics would be great!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a milk crate bolted on my rear rack. It is a must have on an e-bike. It carries everything from cameras, trophy rocks, backpacks, extra clothes, etc most of the time. And when I have my bow, I stick the stabilizer in one corner of it, and bungee it down on the opposite corner. You can put a piece of PVC in the corner to slide your stabilizer down in. It works great.


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

pabuck said:


> For everyone out there who hunts with an e-bike, how do you transport your bow/gun along with your treestand while riding on these bikes?
> 
> Pics would be great!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Bow sling, I like to use my body to absorb the bumps. Backpack and everything else goes in a giant milk crate on the back, or in the saddlebags.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

MIbowhunter49 said:


> Bow sling, I like to use my body to absorb the bumps. Backpack and everything else goes in a giant milk crate on the back, or in the saddlebags.


LOVE THE SIGNATURE:clap2:


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> Can you elaborate on "get more out of the 750 watt"...I've looked into the Lunabox, but not sure what it would accomplish.


Just like the Mule that is programmable, so is the Rambo (with the Luna black box it is). The motor is programmed for 750 watts of output but that is conservative and you can bump that up to it's capacity which is dependent on what voltage and controller wattage you have. For example a 48 volt system and a 25 watt controller will allow the motor to generate up to 1200 watts of power. The luna box allows you to reprogram your current levels in your motor to where you want them. The box also allows you to store your current factory levels so that you can return to them if you desire. It's kind of like the programmers we have seen in diesel pickups to get more towing or increased power out of them. You can program the bike for different situations, so if you know you are going to be hill riding all day you can program the bike to be conservative on the wattage output so that you don't burn up your motor but if you feel you are riding in level hay fields or just riding up and down the roads you can bump it up to the max ( I only go 80%) and get the most speed out of your bike. They have a video on you tube about it and I highly recommend viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP7qXvnVDUM

Just understand that using the box will void your warranty


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

Handlebar V Grip gun rack. You can see the rack on my handlebars in the picture I posted a few threads ago. Rhino Grips work well also.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

shdw633 said:


> Just like the Mule that is programmable, so is the Rambo (with the Luna black box it is). The motor is programmed for 750 watts of output but that is conservative and you can bump that up to it's capacity which is dependent on what voltage and controller wattage you have. For example a 48 volt system and a 25 watt controller will allow the motor to generate up to 1200 watts of power. The luna box allows you to reprogram your current levels in your motor to where you want them. The box also allows you to store your current factory levels so that you can return to them if you desire. It's kind of like the programmers we have seen in diesel pickups to get more towing or increased power out of them. You can program the bike for different situations, so if you know you are going to be hill riding all day you can program the bike to be conservative on the wattage output so that you don't burn up your motor but if you feel you are riding in level hay fields or just riding up and down the roads you can bump it up to the max ( I only go 80%) and get the most speed out of your bike. They have a video on you tube about it and I highly recommend viewing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP7qXvnVDUM
> 
> Just understand that using the box will void your warranty


have you noticed any unnecessary drain or conservation on the battery when you bump up or down...Jay was telling me that if you dial down the Mule to the equivalent of say 750wt, the standard battery life increases by almost 50%....I found that to be a bit "sales-pitchy" to me, as someone with no direct experience with these motors..

Joe


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> have you noticed any unnecessary drain or conservation on the battery when you bump up or down...Jay was telling me that if you dial down the Mule to the equivalent of say 750wt, the standard battery life increases by almost 50%....I found that to be a bit "sales-pitchy" to me, as someone with no direct experience with these motors..
> 
> Joe


Definitely is more drain on the battery when I bump it up, but again, I haven't bumped it down at this point so I can't speak of it's conservation; however, it's easily programmable in order to be able to customize your bike to the trip you have planned. That's why I indicated in your post about the Mule's batteries being superior to what you can get on a Rambo as the Mule utilizes the larger batteries in order to be able to run the different programming of the bike and still be able to get reasonable distances on your trips. Electric is electric, you use more, your battery drains, the bigger the battery the longer it will last, the question is what do you want to trade off on any particular use of the bike, in other words, is your stand far away but mainly roads, then program the bike for 500 watts and take your time getting to the stand, or is it just up the trial on small hills that are easily climbed, then program the bike for 1200 watts and run like a scalded dog to your stand but understand that your battery may only last you for 10 miles instead of 16. That's why I stated earlier that when my battery on my bike goes I am going to be in the market for a 14 to 17 mah battery to replace it.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

12-Ringer said:


> have you noticed any unnecessary drain or conservation on the battery when you bump up or down...Jay was telling me that if you dial down the Mule to the equivalent of say 750wt, the standard battery life increases by almost 50%....I found that to be a bit "sales-pitchy" to me, as someone with no direct experience with these motors..
> 
> Joe


The mules have a 14AH battery while the Rambo that I have only has a 10AH.When I first bought mine,I wasn't happy with the battery life so they sent me a new one and it's much better.Even with peddling,I'm not getting the claimed 30 miles per charge.The battery makes a big difference.If you don't peddle and hit some hills,You'll drain the battery in no time.If you peddle,it also makes a huge difference.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

shdw633 said:


> Definitely is more drain on the battery when I bump it up, but again, I haven't bumped it down at this point so I can't speak of it's conservation; however, it's easily programmable in order to be able to customize your bike to the trip you have planned. That's why I indicated in your post about the Mule's batteries being superior to what you can get on a Rambo as the Mule utilizes the larger batteries in order to be able to run the different programming of the bike and still be able to get reasonable distances on your trips. Electric is electric, you use more, your battery drains, the bigger the battery the longer it will last, the question is what do you want to trade off on any particular use of the bike, in other words, is your stand far away but mainly roads, then program the bike for 500 watts and take your time getting to the stand, or is it just up the trial on small hills that are easily climbed, then program the bike for 1200 watts and run like a scalded dog to your stand but understand that your battery may only last you for 10 miles instead of 16. That's why I stated earlier that when my battery on my bike goes I am going to be in the market for a 14 to 17 mah battery to replace it.



Thanks, I certainly can understand and appreciate the intricacies of DC power consumption, primarily because of my work with cameras. I was just curious if you thought it was as drastic as Jay was purporting? He basically said the standard 14.5ah batt, will perform like the 21ah batt if you dial it down and leave it a 750wt. In essence giving you a $600 upgrade with nothing more than reprogram.....I guess what I was trying to get a feel for is if you felt that way or not. He was also pretty clear that he believes a 750wt motor, paired with the right batt, is more than enough to safely and efficiently power a bike in hunting applications. He mentioned that the Bafang Ultra M620 mid-drive Motor w/integrated Torque Sensor is THE BEST motor available for an ebike, period...Backou doesn't charge more the for 1000wt, same price as the 750wt...but because of the design the 750 will draw more from the battery than the 1000wt dialed down. So he was making the case, if you went with the 750 you definitely want to upgrade the battery, if you went with 1000wt and dial it back, you're in better shape....not sure that all adds up as it just seemed to turn into too much of a salesman at that point.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> Thanks, I certainly can understand and appreciate the intricacies of DC power consumption, primarily because of my work with cameras. I was just curious if you thought it was as drastic as Jay was purporting? He basically said the standard 14.5ah batt, will perform like the 21ah batt if you dial it down and leave it a 750wt. In essence giving you a $600 upgrade with nothing more than reprogram.....I guess what I was trying to get a feel for is if you felt that way or not. He was also pretty clear that he believes a 750wt motor, paired with the right batt, is more than enough to safely and efficiently power a bike in hunting applications. He mentioned that the Bafang Ultra M620 mid-drive Motor w/integrated Torque Sensor is THE BEST motor available for an ebike, period...Backou doesn't charge more the for 1000wt, same price as the 750wt...but because of the design the 750 will draw more from the battery than the 1000wt dialed down. So he was making the case, if you went with the 750 you definitely want to upgrade the battery, if you went with 1000wt and dial it back, you're in better shape....not sure that all adds up as it just seemed to turn into too much of a salesman at that point.


I just got my Black Box a little over a month ago and got it for the direct purpose of getting more speed out of my bike. I do agree that the Ultra is the best motor and I also agree with him that 750 is enough power for most hunting situations but that being said I just don't think it's worth the extra couple of thousand dollars difference in price for that. Since I have only increased the wattage and have not decreased it I can't really say that you get up to 50% more battery life but now that you have said that I think I would be interested in finding out how far my bike would go if I dialed it back to 500 watts, just for cruising purposes. I would agree on a bigger battery, no doubt, mainly because of what happens to the batteries when they get cold. I live in Florida and hunt in Georgia so I wasn't prepared for what happens to them when you hit the teens and lower temps...it really drops that battery life, so bigger would definitely be better. That being said I ended up wrapping the batter in a neoprene knee brace that I stuffed with body warmers and that got me through the hunt.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

dougell said:


> The mules have a 14AH battery while the Rambo that I have only has a 10AH.When I first bought mine,I wasn't happy with the battery life so they sent me a new one and it's much better.Even with peddling,I'm not getting the claimed 30 miles per charge.The battery makes a big difference.If you don't peddle and hit some hills,You'll drain the battery in no time.If you peddle,it also makes a huge difference.


I don't know where you heard you would get 30 miles out of a Rambo 10 mah batter but that's not true. The most I have heard is 20 miles and I generally get between 16 and 18 miles when I ride.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I meant to type 20


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

12-Ringer said:


> Thanks, I certainly can understand and appreciate the intricacies of DC power consumption, primarily because of my work with cameras. I was just curious if you thought it was as drastic as Jay was purporting? He basically said the standard 14.5ah batt, will perform like the 21ah batt if you dial it down and leave it a 750wt. In essence giving you a $600 upgrade with nothing more than reprogram.....I guess what I was trying to get a feel for is if you felt that way or not. He was also pretty clear that he believes a 750wt motor, paired with the right batt, is more than enough to safely and efficiently power a bike in hunting applications. He mentioned that the Bafang Ultra M620 mid-drive Motor w/integrated Torque Sensor is THE BEST motor available for an ebike, period...Backou doesn't charge more the for 1000wt, same price as the 750wt...but because of the design the 750 will draw more from the battery than the 1000wt dialed down. So he was making the case, if you went with the 750 you definitely want to upgrade the battery, if you went with 1000wt and dial it back, you're in better shape....not sure that all adds up as it just seemed to turn into too much of a salesman at that point.


The BIG question with dialing down the 1000w motor to 750w... With the 750w restriction on state and federal lands, will the 1000w bike dialed down to 750w still be legal?


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## rykel1116 (Jun 15, 2012)

Ck out the rad rover... Great e bike..great prices..


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Olink said:


> The BIG question with dialing down the 1000w motor to 750w... With the 750w restriction on state and federal lands, will the 1000w bike dialed down to 750w still be legal?


I would think so...not sure how you’d verify it, then again not sure how anyone would know....


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## 77chevy (May 26, 2017)

Olink said:


> I've done quite a bit of research and there is only one that I would get - the Backcou Mule.


Looks nice but $4400 nice!!??


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## 77chevy (May 26, 2017)

this one checks the boxes for me at $1599. It it croaks in 5 yrs I can buy another and still be money ahead over the Bacou Mule

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collectio...series/products/all-terrain-electric-fat-bike


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## 77chevy (May 26, 2017)




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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I think I’m more focused on a mid drive....too many reports of hub drives not holding up


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## Marlin1938 (Nov 19, 2019)

I have a juiced bike and love it , 52 volt battery get like 40 miles on a charge .


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> I think I’m more focused on a mid drive....too many reports of hub drives not holding up


Me too but my newest big concern is now with battery life in 20-30 degree temps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## batdaddy (Sep 12, 2014)

Check out TimberTrail e-bikes. They have all-wheel drive through two 750W motors. They also make a great carry rack for your treestand and bow. www.TimberTrail.bike


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

batdaddy said:


> Check out TimberTrail e-bikes. They have all-wheel drive through two 750W motors. They also make a great carry rack for your treestand and bow. www.TimberTrail.bike


Do you own one? Almost impossible to find anything that isn’t out out by the company itself. I see they’re from PA which is cool, but can’t seem to find much about them....I did hear the batt goes fast when you’re running both motors. Both are hub motors as well.


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## batdaddy (Sep 12, 2014)

I do own one. It’s an awesome machine. They are a new company, so probably not much on the internet yet. I looked at QuietKat and Rambo and the TimberTrail Is literally twice the bike for almost half the price of some of the others. The front motor is a game changer for hill climbing and slippery surfaces. And the 16Ah battery is more than enough for a full day of scouting/hunting. Highly recommended


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

batdaddy said:


> I do own one. It’s an awesome machine. They are a new company, so probably not much on the internet yet. I looked at QuietKat and Rambo and the TimberTrail Is literally twice the bike for almost half the price of some of the others. The front motor is a game changer for hill climbing and slippery surfaces. And the 16Ah battery is more than enough for a full day of scouting/hunting. Highly recommended


Their warranty is nice to, 3 years on frame, 2 years on motors and 1 year on electrical components.

How is the battery life in 20-30 degree temps?

I think this is the bike I want just wish I could find more reviews.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

batdaddy said:


> I do own one. It’s an awesome machine. They are a new company, so probably not much on the internet yet. I looked at QuietKat and Rambo and the TimberTrail Is literally twice the bike for almost half the price of some of the others. The front motor is a game changer for hill climbing and slippery surfaces. And the 16Ah battery is more than enough for a full day of scouting/hunting. Highly recommended


How do we know you aren't a part of the company? I ask that because Timber Trail bikes say they are from Central PA, like you state you are from. You state you miss Timbertall treestands in another post whose main players in that business were named Bruce and Brian and the names of the owners of Timber Trails ebikes is Bruce and Brian so how do we know you are not just pushing your ebike on the site. Just a lot of coincidences so I'm just curious if you are the owner of Timber Trails ebikes or work for the company. It's cool if you are because you could impart a lot of knowledge, but it would be nice to know that upfront.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Lots of ebike companies offer lifetime frame warranties.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

I would like to know how much TimberTrail bikes weigh as well. Rambo's dual hub bike comes in at 74 pounds which would mean you would need a serious bike rack to haul it around as many racks will only handle 60 pounds.


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## batdaddy (Sep 12, 2014)

Just trying to help a friend with a new business venture. I do know Bruce from Timbertall Treestands personally. Never met his partner. I own two of their treestands. I actually had the opportunity to help test one of the earlier pre-production bikes and bought it when the new models arrived. Mine is 750W rear and 500W front. The new ones are 750 both wheels. All I can say is that I haven’t been disappointed in the bike (or the treestands). Bike weighs about 75 lbs. I’m happy to try to answer any other questions, but I think everything is outlined on their website.


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## boothm (Nov 8, 2015)

Take a look at https://www.gngebike.com/mid-drive-kits

Good reviews and top rated. I got one for my brother....best low cost option I could find that didn't slimp.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

ruffme said:


> Lots of ebike companies offer lifetime frame warranties.


Not worried about the frame tho! Most companies I believe only have a 1 yr warranty on the motor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

batdaddy said:


> Just trying to help a friend with a new business venture. I do know Bruce from Timbertall Treestands personally. Never met his partner. I own two of their treestands. I actually had the opportunity to help test one of the earlier pre-production bikes and bought it when the new models arrived. Mine is 750W rear and 500W front. The new ones are 750 both wheels. All I can say is that I haven’t been disappointed in the bike (or the treestands). Bike weighs about 75 lbs. I’m happy to try to answer any other questions, but I think everything is outlined on their website.


The only question I had for Bruce when I called him was, what model motors were being used? Do the motors have Teflon or metal gears?

Unfortunately he didn’t know off hand but he is looking into it and going to email me. That was a couple days ago. Can’t wait to hear what they are!


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

boothm said:


> Take a look at https://www.gngebike.com/mid-drive-kits
> 
> Good reviews and top rated. I got one for my brother....best low cost option I could find that didn't slimp.


Interesting option! Looks like then all you need is to add a battery!! What does a really good battery cost?


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> Interesting option! Looks like then all you need is to add a battery!! What does a really good battery cost?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


if you’re going to be buying a battery separate you should plan on spending between $500 and $700; especially because you asked for a good battery. Yes, you can buy batteries much cheaper than that, but they are also the batteries that don’t last.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Let's start from the general understanding that "Best" is a relative term directly correlated to an individual's needs and desires...

A few things have become clear to me and I can't say that I am surprised as some are simple common sense:

Hub drives notoriously have more problems/issues than mid drives, not only with regard to performance, but with regard to breakdown. It should be noted that Ebikes are NOT NEW, the first was built in 1881. Hub drives are the grandfather of ebikes and set the standard by which our engineering centered society could attack for the purpose of improvement. No one should be surprised with the evolution of the motor development and design.

Mid drives offer a more reliable option in every aspect from performance to maintenance.

The current touchstone for mid-drive motors in utility bikes seems to be Bafang Ultra Max620 w/integrated Torque Sensor. No other motor, even the top of the line Brose, Bosch, Yamaha can touch the 160 Nm of torque this motor can produce. and The 750wt motor is programmable up to 1500wt and the 1000wt is programmable up to 2000wt. Most manufacturer building around the Ultra do not have a price distinction between the 750 and 1000. Here is one of many interesting reads on the motor itself...
https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-ultra-max/

You can get an Ultra kit for as little as $670 (without a battery), but it should be noted you need a specialized bracket to accommodate the Ultra. There are several kit purchasing options available if you search the web; options with and without batteries. In the MOST VERY BASIC conversion....any current mountain bike can be converted to an Ebike. Any quality shops can do the conversion, many average Joe's can get it done as well. The mid-drive conversions are typically easier, but as with any project, planning is important so that you know if the motor/battery choice will fit your current bike. One very reputable bike shop in the area told me that there isn't even a need to upgrade ANYTHING else on a quality mountain bike if you simple want to convert to e-power. I asked about the hydraulic breaks, etc....the two techs said, ebikes have them because they're typically much heavier than standard mountain bike with the motor (usually 13-17lbs depending on your choice), battery, rims, fat tires, fenders, racks, etc...so the hydraulic certain provide safer alternative than your standard AND they do recommend them, HOWEVER, they were quick to mention that if the only conversion was adding a motor, the brake upgrade isn't a necessity...one of the techs showed me his personal conversion on Gary Fisher RS1...only add-on was the Bafang BBSHD 750wt motor and 17.5ah battery.

In all that I've looked into it seems that the most consistent recommendation, often in the form of, "I wish I would have just spent the initial extra $$ up front", is to go as big and as name-brand as you can on your power source AND avoid generic or knock-off brands. This recommendation has been for both hub and mid-drive motors AND from what I classify utility riders and performance riders. Universally, there are reported significant power issues in the cold, I spoke with a guy from Minnesota yesterday who runs an 2018 Felt Outfitter which is powered by the very popular Bosch 250wt performance motor. He took a fully charged battery, 1.5 miles to his stand, hunted for 5-hours, and the bike didn't make it back (said he was lucky is was 85% downhill on the way back). He left his house it was 5-degrees with wind chills in the negative teens, when he left to come home temps had warmed about 10-degrees. The ride in was pretty steep uphill, 85% of the way. I only mention the above example as it was the most extreme, however, I have heard and read MANY accounts where battery performance was significantly reduced in the colder temps. 

The Backcou Mule and the BikTrix Juggernaut Ultra 1000 both come with the Ultra and offer battery options up to 21ah. There is roughly $1k difference in price between the two (Mule being more). Standard options are similar, the Juggernaut offers 2.8", 3", and 4" tires, several shock and break options, but standard package is similar to the Mule and about $1k-$1.3k less....only issue, seems to be sold out everywhere and most reviews are on the various ebike forums where you have to join to read. Haven't found many others yet capitalizing the Ultra and it may not even be a necessary option, however, the technology is constantly changing. The Ultra seems to be at the of the head of the pack this moment; which does bode well for resale should things change (which is inevitable). With the next advancement, the Ultra will likely drop in price and appear in more bikes, with in turn reduces the resale value of the BBSHD, and so on....

Not really sure why this particular bug bit me the way it has...probably not even an Ebike in my future as I have more significant priorities, but I could easily sell a few stands, bows, flyrods and make it happen if I wanted to do it....

Joe


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

The chessy 10ah battery in my Rambo seemed to do OK during this past winter.My son rode it way more than I did in the snow but he never brought it to my attention that battery life was an issue.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

My M2S with it's inferior hub motor, sub par components, and likely ArcheryTalk frowned upon battery has never given me one ounce of trouble. Going on its third season, it does everything I ask it to do. And I haven't necessarily babied it. Here's a icy 22 deg morning where it did great. I suppose heated grips would be nice.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Kris87 said:


> My M2S with it's inferior hub motor, sub par components, and likely ArcheryTalk frowned upon battery has never given me one ounce of trouble. Going on its third season, it does everything I ask it to do. And I haven't necessarily babied it. Here's a icy 22 deg morning where it did great. I suppose heated grips would be nice.
> 
> View attachment 7105149



Very cool...and I doubt anyone here would frown upon anything, I hope the threads aren't coming across that way....those who don't have problems rarely share, its those who have products not meeting their expectations that tend to sound the alarm...thanks for sharing your experiences, that's what this thread is trying to do...provide an education for some. The more info like yours that is shared, the better informed everyone can be...three years ago the MS2 was a top choice.......maybe there are MS2s available now at GREAT prices....thanks again for sharing.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I took my bike to Ohio this trip, rode it every day for 4 days straight(and rode it a lot there), moved on to KY, rode it there for 3 more days. Temps in the 20's and 30's every day. Never charged the battery, still had about 25% when I got home. I pedal my bike any time I'm on it. I'm an avid mtn biker. I got great legs.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Very cool...and I doubt anyone here would frown upon anything, I hope the threads aren't coming across that way....those who don't have problems rarely share, its those who have products not meeting their expectations that tend to sound the alarm...thanks for sharing your experiences, that's what this thread is trying to do...provide an education for some. The more info like yours that is shared, the better informed everyone can be...three years ago the MS2 was a top choice.......maybe there are MS2s available now at GREAT prices....thanks again for sharing.


What about the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT bike? Anyone have any experience with this bike? It has the Bafang Ultra Max mid-drive motor (up to 1500w), 48v 19.2ah battery, 180mm Tektro Auriga hydraulic disc brakes and Mozo Air Suspension for $2,699 (XL 21" model, not 19")!!


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> What about the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT bike? Anyone have any experience with this bike? It has the Bafang Ultra Max mid-drive motor (up to 1500w), 48v 19.2ah battery, 180mm Tektro Auriga hydraulic disc brakes and Mozo Air Suspension for $2,699 (XL 21" model, not 19")!!


That's a solid looking bike right there. Seems to have everything you would want in a bike, except the derailleur, but for that price and all that I think I would just keep a spare or two on me in the event I broke it during a ride.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> What about the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT bike? Anyone have any experience with this bike? It has the Bafang Ultra Max mid-drive motor (up to 1500w), 48v 19.2ah battery, 180mm Tektro Auriga hydraulic disc brakes and Mozo Air Suspension for $2,699 (XL 21" model, not 19")!!


From all that I read a full suspension bike can be a bit troublesome if you are hauling anything. I think you're not too far from Ephrata, should give the guys at Martin's a call or stop by https://martinsbike.com/
....they are really knowledgeable...they want a sale, but want you to be educated as well. I saw a demonstration with a hard-tail and a full suspension bike. Both hauling a small cart with 100lbs of weight. The same rider on the full suspension bike had a tougher time, not only did the bike drop some, it wasn't as sharp on the turn as the hardtail. That may or may not be an issue for some...most I've read haul their stands on the backs with gear in a crate of some sort. If you were hauling things in on a cart, might be different??? not really sure....be good to get some input from folks who have one.

That MS seems priced right though with those components. 
https://electricbikereview.com/m2s-bikes/all-terrain-ultra/

Not sure if the HT is full suspension or not....it looks not...if so that makes it even a little more intriguing...it also includes the upgraded batt as most others start with the 14.5ah batt as their standard


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> From all that I read a full suspension bike can be a bit troublesome if you are hauling anything.


The All Terrain Ultra HT isn't FULL suspension, just front suspension on the front forks.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> The All Terrain Ultra HT isn't FULL suspension, just front suspension on the front forks.


:thumbs_up....saw that


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> :thumbs_up....saw that


I really think that will be my bike. Love the motor!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

I bought this one last year and already used it in the woods https://www.bpmimports.com/shop/bike-model/f15/f15rs/f15-rs-750w-camo/ 
The only thing I did to it is add a strap to stop the battery from rattling and removed the foot support for same reason. Other then that I'm really happy with the purchase. It feels weird to ride small tires like that so if I did it again I will probably purchase one with full size tires.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> I really think that will be my bike. Love the motor!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that would be a good choice. If you do get it give us a review once you are out and riding on it. I may sell my Rambo to get that bike!! 

Quick note: Make sure the bike will be legal in your area. Would hate for you to spend nearly $3000 and it not be able to be used in your area. I think the guy on the video said it was a class 3 ebike.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> I really think that will be my bike. Love the motor!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Accessories don't seem that bad either....


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Side by side....not much difference between the Mule and MS HT, except price tag....even with fenders and rack $1570 in savings....best I can see is gear box an derailers are different; both Shimano but the Mule has Shimano Alivio Hill-Climbing 9 speed, 40t Front 11x36t cassette where as the MS has the Bafang Ultra integrated crankset 44t chainwheel, Shimano Deore 10-speed, Shimano Deore trigger shift .

The 19.2ma battery that is standard with the MS would be a $500 (17.5ah) - $600 (21ah) upgrade in the Mule as the Mule comes standard with 14.5.

Other than that almost identical....(some minor issues)

You can get the 1000wt motor in the Mule for the same price as the 750wt in the Mule and the 1000wt is NOT offered in the MS, if that is something folks are worried about ...

I've called around and can't find anyone close to me that has one to see in person...


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

shdw633 said:


> ......except the derailleur, but for that price and all that I think I would just keep a spare or two on me in the event I broke it during a ride.


Am I missing something the MS has Shimano Deore 10-speed rear derailleur


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

pabuck said:


> Not worried about the frame tho! Most companies I believe only have a 1 yr warranty on the motor.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's kinda my point, warranties are kind of mute selling point. Even a 1 year warranty on electronics, what does that mean? 

Most of these bike sellers are direct to consumer.
So a warranty claim consists of you email/calling the company, they send out parts and you do the work. In other words, you are on the hook for labor.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

pabuck said:


> What about the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT bike? Anyone have any experience with this bike? It has the Bafang Ultra Max mid-drive motor (up to 1500w), 48v 19.2ah battery, 180mm Tektro Auriga hydraulic disc brakes and Mozo Air Suspension for $2,699 (XL 21" model, not 19")!!


My buddy has one and has a lot of problems with his, mostly electronics, fuses etc. Hes actually trying to sell it now to get something else.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> Am I missing something the MS has Shimano Deore 10-speed rear derailleur


Derailleur's catch grass and other debris and bind up or break. Couple of individuals on here have spoken about their derailleurs breaking while out hunting. That is the one benefit about a hub drive over a mid drive, if you break a chain or derailleur you can still get back home; whereas, you are in a pickle with a mid-drive.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks!!


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

shdw633 said:


> Derailleur's catch grass and other debris and bind up or break. Couple of individuals on here have spoken about their derailleurs breaking while out hunting. That is the one benefit about a hub drive over a mid drive, if you break a chain or derailleur you can still get back home; whereas, you are in a pickle with a mid-drive.


That's true but the guys would race mountain bikes all have deraileurs on them.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Am I missing something the MS has Shimano Deore 10-speed rear derailleur


Is that good?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Teemster said:


> My buddy has one and has a lot of problems with his, mostly electronics, fuses etc. Hes actually trying to sell it now to get something else.


Wouldn't those problems be from the manufacturer(Bafang) not with the with Bike itself?


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

dougell said:


> That's true but the guys would race mountain bikes all have deraileurs on them.


I'm not a mountain bike racer but do they go through cut corn and CRP fields when they are racing or are they on a trail the majority of the time??


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> Derailleur's catch grass and other debris and bind up or break. Couple of individuals on here have spoken about their derailleurs breaking while out hunting. That is the one benefit about a hub drive over a mid drive, if you break a chain or derailleur you can still get back home; whereas, you are in a pickle with a mid-drive.


Everyone who rides a bike, and particularly those in off road situations, should know how to break a chain and route it single speed. Just like fixing a flat tire, it's a possibility at all times and an internal hub isn't immune to a broken chain either. Internal hubs are probably better suited for this application, but I would be curious as to the quality that's being used (I admittedly haven't looked). Hub quality is probably overlooked and under appreciated. Applying 1000 watts to the rear wheel has to put a lot of pressure on the pawls in a freehub, particularly on such a heavy bike (and load) that is going to resist movement.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Quicksliver said:


> Everyone who rides a bike, and particularly those in off road situations, should know how to break a chain and route it single speed. Just like fixing a flat tire, it's a possibility at all times and an internal hub isn't immune to a broken chain either. Internal hubs are probably better suited for this application, but I would be curious as to the quality that's being used (I admittedly haven't looked). Hub quality is probably overlooked and under appreciated. Applying 1000 watts to the rear wheel has to put a lot of pressure on the pawls in a freehub, particularly on such a heavy bike (and load) that is going to resist movement.


I can tell you the rear axle assembly on the M2S is beefy as heck. It almost killed me to remove the rear wheel when I needed to fix a flat. The tolerances are so tight and beefy, unlike a normal mountain bike axle and frame. I thought it was going to whoop me.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> I can tell you the rear axle assembly on the M2S is beefy as heck. It almost killed me to remove the rear wheel when I needed to fix a flat. The tolerances are so tight and beefy, unlike a normal mountain bike axle and frame. I thought it was going to whoop me.


That doesn't sound like a selling point lol

Heavy and tight fitting doesn't necessarily equate to "good". I can make a square peg fit in a round hole with a big enough hammer. Most bike frames are built to handle an incredible amount of force, I'm not sure why it would be necessary or beneficial to overengineer that.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

shdw633 said:


> I'm not a mountain bike racer but do they go through cut corn and CRP fields when they are racing or are they on a trail the majority of the time??


I'm not a racer either but I do go on some marked mountain bike trails that I wouldn't be man enough to peddle through.There's no weeds or corn stalks but there's plenty of rocks,roots and depressions that could take out a derailleur pretty easy.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I just figured the amount of torque the thing produced is why it was that way. It was just very surprising.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

My Rambo has a Sturmey archer three speed rear hub and to be honest,I'm not completely sold on it.The chain does stretch and I'm constantly having to adjust it.Every time you adjust the chain,you have to adjust the shifter.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

If I was in the market I'd be waiting for more info on this controller!

https://wattwagons.com/blogs/news/archon-x1-controller


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

ruffme said:


> If I was in the market I'd be waiting for more info on this controller!
> 
> https://wattwagons.com/blogs/news/archon-x1-controller


I can understand the wanting of that for commuting, just not sure if that much power is needed in a hunting situation....battery longevity yes, but does your average hunter need a bike that can produce 3000 watts?


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

shdw633 said:


> I can understand the wanting of that for commuting, just not sure if that much power is needed in a hunting situation....battery longevity yes, but does your average hunter need a bike that can produce 3000 watts?


yes


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

ruffme said:


> yes


LOL!! Ok..enlighten me. What would be the purpose of having that much power on a bike in a hunting environment. Realizing, of course, of the possibilities of severe accidents on one with that much power and speed. If indeed we did need that kind of power and speed why are we not just utilizing dirt bikes in the woods?


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## IA Monsterbuck (Jul 18, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> LOL!! Ok..enlighten me. What would be the purpose of having that much power on a bike in a hunting environment. Realizing, of course, of the possibilities of severe accidents on one with that much power and speed. If indeed we did need that kind of power and speed why are we not just utilizing dirt bikes in the woods?


I had the Rambo and at 750 watts it was grossly underpowered. A big guy with a loaded pack and bow it didn't have the oomph to go up a lot of the hills where I hunt.

If wattage is related to power and torque and not strictly speed then more is definitely better.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

IA Monsterbuck said:


> I had the Rambo and at 750 watts it was grossly underpowered. A big guy with a loaded pack and bow it didn't have the oomph to go up a lot of the hills where I hunt.
> 
> If wattage is related to power and torque and not strictly speed then more is definitely better.


I'm 6 foot, 285 lbs, easily 300 with gear and I get up and down the hills without any strain with my Rambo 750 and it get speeds over 20 mph going across fields and that's without the use of the Luna Black Box I got now.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

So, I pulled the trigger and ordered the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT last night. After evaluating them all the deciding factors were:

- the larger 21” frame
- the Bafang Ultra Max motor
- front air suspension 
- the fact that the new Terrain Ultra HT bikes will have braze on the frame to mount fenders and racks!

My only concern with this bike is having a derailleur. I plan to fabric some sort of protector in front of it to keep grass from getting snagged in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

IA Monsterbuck said:


> I had the Rambo and at 750 watts it was grossly underpowered. A big guy with a loaded pack and bow it didn't have the oomph to go up a lot of the hills where I hunt.
> 
> If wattage is related to power and torque and not strictly speed then more is definitely better.


Wow, really? I had mine loaded down with 3 stands and 12 steel climbing sticks, plus me, and was making it up steep hills in the snow..


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> So, I pulled the trigger and ordered the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT last night. After evaluating them all the deciding factors were:
> 
> - the larger 21” frame
> - the Bafang Ultra Max motor
> ...


Cool, keep us posted...I have a guy looking at two of my custom bows and the crossbow my kids used when they were younger, if I get them sold in the next week, I might join you.

I though you said you were in the 5'10" range, why the 21" frame?
Did you speak with anyone as M2S before the purchase?

Maybe run a flash sale on homebrew cams (lol)....

Joe


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Cool, keep us posted...I have a guy looking at two of my custom bows and the crossbow my kids used when they were younger, if I get them sold in the next week, I might join you.
> 
> I though you said you were in the 5'10" range, why the 21" frame?
> Did you speak with anyone as M2S before the purchase?
> ...


I’m 6’4” tall 215 lbs so I need the 21” frame. I emailed them back and forth about 5 times and they answered all of my emails within 30 mins! Great customer service!!


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm curious to hear what you think of that bike as well.How long will it take to get?


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> So, I pulled the trigger and ordered the M2S All Terrain Ultra HT last night. After evaluating them all the deciding factors were:
> 
> - the larger 21” frame
> - the Bafang Ultra Max motor
> ...


I think you made a great choice. Can't wait to hear about the bike after you get it. Make sure to add pics as well!! Congrats!!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> I’m 6’4” tall 215 lbs so I need the 21” frame. I emailed them back and forth about 5 times and they answered all of my emails within 30 mins! Great customer service!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



More good info...did you order the fenders and the rack directly from them? What did they hit you up for for shipping?


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> I’m 6’4” tall 215 lbs so I need the 21” frame. I emailed them back and forth about 5 times and they answered all of my emails within 30 mins! Great customer service!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



More good info, thanks for sharing.
Did you order the fenders and the rack directly from them? What did they hit you up for for shipping?


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

Remember to shop around for those accessories. Heres a set of fenders same as they have on M2S website for $50 plus shipping, Ebay, $35 plus free shipping. Make sure to shop around!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-B...804798?hash=item1a856f2a7e:g:nskAAOSwHSddkciX


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Are they good for the 4 1/2 inch tires


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## IA Monsterbuck (Jul 18, 2006)

MIbowhunter49 said:


> Wow, really? I had mine loaded down with 3 stands and 12 steel climbing sticks, plus me, and was making it up steep hills in the snow..


Maybe mine was a dud. I was not impressed with the battery life either. Ultimately I don't have it anymore and would not buy another.

Only way I would change my mind is if I know someone who had one and was able to try it and see if it was a drastically different experience.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

12-Ringer said:


> Are they good for the 4 1/2 inch tires


Yes, they are pretty much a standard fender, though you can see a lot of different style of Fenders, like Dave's mud shovel rear fender. You will want to get a front mud shovel on your down tube as well to keep both your battery and you from being covered in mud as that front fender only stops so much. Also don't forget tire liners, you will want to install them before you put the tires on your bike. You will want to put the liners in and then put the appropriate amount of slime in your tires and then install them on your bike...it will be so much easier for you.....or you can wait until you have a flat and then wish you had done it like I did!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portland-D...705156?hash=item365c6a5004:g:gekAAOSwnMdeMFd5


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

IA Monsterbuck said:


> Maybe mine was a dud. I was not impressed with the battery life either. Ultimately I don't have it anymore and would not buy another.
> 
> Only way I would change my mind is if I know someone who had one and was able to try it and see if it was a drastically different experience.


I'm happy with mine for what I paid for it, but if I was to do it today I would be getting what pabuck is getting. That bike checks off a lot on my want list knowing what I know now about them.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> More good info, thanks for sharing.
> Did you order the fenders and the rack directly from them? What did they hit you up for for shipping?


Fenders are $50 and the rack is $79!

Shipping was $174.22 but then they gave me a $100 discount so $74.22!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> Yes, they are pretty much a standard fender, though you can see a lot of different style of Fenders, like Dave's mud shovel rear fender. You will want to get a front mud shovel on your down tube as well to keep both your battery and you from being covered in mud as that front fender only stops so much. Also don't forget tire liners, you will want to install them before you put the tires on your bike. You will want to put the liners in and then put the appropriate amount of slime in your tires and then install them on your bike...it will be so much easier for you.....or you can wait until you have a flat and then wish you had done it like I did!!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portland-D...705156?hash=item365c6a5004:g:gekAAOSwnMdeMFd5


What are tire liners?


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> What are tire liners?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mr-Tuffy-X...hash=item361c65ecdd:m:mWdaOcXeK0bo2o9r3TZB1cw

Your bike comes with tubes and the tire can be punctured rather easily while riding through the fields and woods. These sit inside your tire and are there to prevent a puncture of the tube should you run over a nail, thorn, stick, whatever that would have an opportunity to cause you a long trip home without them. In the event of a flat they also protect your rubber from being destroyed by your wheel should you decide to try and ride the flat home....yes I have done that as well because I got a thorn in the side of my tire instead of the bottom and it punctured by tube that way. I did have the tire liners in but did not put the slime in the tubes before airing it up....my bad, lesson learned. This little bit of money and time can save you a ton of frustration later on down the road while back in the woods a mile or so. Make sure to put together a bike kit, which should include a chain link, tire repair kit, CO2 inflators and cartridges (I use those instead of a pump, they pack easier), tire pry bar (get plastic so you don't mess up your rims and get several as you will break them) and anything else that you might feel you need in the event of a needed repair, heck I have a second chain in mine just in case I bust the first one up bad because if that chain goes......you walk.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RockBros-B...502825&hash=item2ee7511e8b:g:8wkAAOSwIVxdU9mO

I would also have a cateye spoke mount computer magnet in my kit in case you loose yours while riding....it happens.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SpeedPark-...Magnet-for-SIGMA-ECHOWELL-CATEYE/152674394708

That should get you started and you can add or delete whatever you don't think you need.....at least until you need it!!


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mr-Tuffy-X...hash=item361c65ecdd:m:mWdaOcXeK0bo2o9r3TZB1cw
> 
> Your bike comes with tubes and the tire can be punctured rather easily while riding through the fields and woods. These sit inside your tire and are there to prevent a puncture of the tube should you run over a nail, thorn, stick, whatever that would have an opportunity to cause you a long trip home without them. In the event of a flat they also protect your rubber from being destroyed by your wheel should you decide to try and ride the flat home....yes I have done that as well because I got a thorn in the side of my tire instead of the bottom and it punctured by tube that way. I did have the tire liners in but did not put the slime in the tubes before airing it up....my bad, lesson learned. This little bit of money and time can save you a ton of frustration later on down the road while back in the woods a mile or so. Make sure to put together a bike kit, which should include a chain link, tire repair kit, CO2 inflators and cartridges (I use those instead of a pump, they pack easier), tire pry bar (get plastic so you don't mess up your rims and get several as you will break them) and anything else that you might feel you need in the event of a needed repair, heck I have a second chain in mine just in case I bust the first one up bad because if that chain goes......you walk.
> 
> ...



Wow, I’m not an avid biker and that sounds like a lot!! How do you even put the liners in? Sorry if I sound stupid but the only thing I know about biking is getting on and pedaling!!


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## IA Monsterbuck (Jul 18, 2006)

First time out in the woods with my Rambo bike I got two flat tires. Had to walk the bike a half mile back to my truck.

Took it to the bike shop and had Slime tubes installed and tuffy liners. They charged me around $100 I believe. Expensive and I probably could have done it myself cheaper but I didn't get another flat.

If you're going to be riding through the woods I recommend extra protection.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> Wow, I’m not an avid biker and that sounds like a lot!! How do you even put the liners in? Sorry if I sound stupid but the only thing I know about biking is getting on and pedaling!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's really not that much, just seems like it. Get the tire liners and when your bike comes in, before you mount the tires, you have to deflate them and get half of the tire off the rims (that's where you will need the tire pry bar), with the inner tube deflated unscrew the inside portion of the stem (you will find a tool for that in some bike repair kits) and put the slime in the tubes per instructions, re-insert the stem but don't inflate. Then lay the tire liner in the tire between the tube and the rubber (it just lays in there and this is when you'll be glad you didn't try to do this while the bike was mounted because you can lay the tire flat on the ground and work the liner easier that way) and then re-inflate the tire and install as per your instructions. It's a little bit of work, especially getting that tire half off that rim, but they last a long time and is well worth the effort. Course you can do like the other poster stated and just take the tires to a bike shop and have them do it for around $100, that's about twice what you will spend on the parts so it's whatever you think your time is worth.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> I’m 6’4” tall 215 lbs so I need the 21” frame. I emailed them back and forth about 5 times and they answered all of my emails within 30 mins! Great customer service!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BTW, you are probably not going to like that seat either, they are tough on areas you don't need to be tough on. An oversized seat really makes a ton of difference in riding your new bike. This is just an example of what I'm talking about. 

https://www.amazon.com/Oversized-Co...e+seat&qid=1584171164&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-4

I know I am hitting you with a lot of things but I went through them by trial and error for the season after I got my bike. These are just things that I know I either encountered or had to change in order to make the bike work for me as far as comfort and making sure I am get back from where I am going.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> BTW, you are probably not going to like that seat either, they are tough on areas you don't need to be tough on. An oversized seat really makes a ton of difference in riding your new bike. This is just an example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Oversized-Co...e+seat&qid=1584171164&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-4
> 
> I know I am hitting you with a lot of things but I went through them by trial and error for the season after I got my bike. These are just things that I know I either encountered or had to change in order to make the bike work for me as far as comfort and making sure I am get back from where I am going.


For sure! Can’t wait to get mine!


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

pabuck said:


> For sure! Can’t wait to get mine!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


oh ya, bought two bikes this past year, first thing to go on both was the seats!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

FYI....

Camofire has three QuietKats (Apex, Ambush and Warrior- 2019 models) listed today.....roughly 40% each.


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## Rev44 (Dec 19, 2008)

Rad Rover vs Biktrix juggernaut. Anyone compare them? 

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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Rev44 said:


> Rad Rover vs Biktrix juggernaut. Anyone compare them?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Yes rode a rental Rad all summer, I own a Biktrix Jug.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> For sure! Can’t wait to get mine!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



When is your bike suppose to be in?


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

shdw633 said:


> When is your bike suppose to be in?


End of April 


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

Here's another topiic, i have the rambo 750 bike, non suspension model. I found a front a dealer that has a front suspension coil fork at a good price, $40 off what rambo would sell, shipping included.
My ? is it worth the upgrade? And will soon swipe out stock seat which should help.

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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I don’t have a ton of experience, but the limited I do with bikes having both suspension forks or solid forks...the suspension forks ride MUCH better. Several of the suspension forks also have a lock out feature, thus rendering them solid, so you get the best of both.


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## IA Monsterbuck (Jul 18, 2006)

ruffme said:


> oh ya, bought two bikes this past year, first thing to go on both was the seats!


Definitely. And if you really want to save your back get a suspension seat post. I have some lower discs that can't take a beating so this is what I put on mine.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

Ok thx. Kinda thought would be a good upgrade. My bike is a hunt, game camera check bike and so on. I will say, this bike rides like a log wagon! Lol.
I have the tires at a lb or so under max.
What's a good comfy seat?

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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

deer310sg said:


> Ok thx. Kinda thought would be a good upgrade. My bike is a hunt, game camera check bike and so on. I will say, this bike rides like a log wagon! Lol.
> I have the tires at a lb or so under max.
> What's a good comfy seat?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


This is what I have, I really like it. I can't use the Thudbusters because they make my seat so high up it makes it hard to get on the bike.

https://www.amazon.com/Oversized-Co...eywords=Asani+Bike+Seat&qid=1584810273&sr=8-5


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Just got the fenders back on after a hydrodip and clear CeraKote.
Pictures don't do them justice!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

ruffme said:


> Just got the fenders back on after a hydrodip and clear CeraKote.
> Pictures don't do them justice!


Awesome fenders! Hope I can find a set like that for my M2S. I really don’t want to get muddy riding it!


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

So, I got my All Terrain Ultra HT today. I ended up ordering the Large 19” frame bc the 21” was going to be out of stock until the end of June. 

I’m 41 years old, 6’3” tall and 215 lbs. The 19” frame fits me perfectly, not a single issue what so ever. My Trek mountain bike is a 20” frame and this 19” fits me way better! 

The box arrived from M2S 4 business days after switching my order from the XL to the L frame. The box showed up in perfect condition. The bike was packed to the T, foam padding everywhere! 

All I had to do was follow their online tutorial on assembling the front wheel, handle bars and pedals. The hardest part was having to wait about 4 hours for the battery to fully charge!!

I drove the bike as a normal mountain bike while the battery was charging. I live on a hilly farm in Pennsylvania and wanted to try it out. I have a fairly steep portion of my yard (about 300’) that I can barely climb with my 21 speed Trek while sitting down. Needless to say, I’m out of breath by the top! I tried using the 10 speed Ultra and had to stand up to make and even then it was tough.

I rode it all over my yard and the bike handled beautifully with the gears shifting super smooth! 

The real party began when the battery was charged! I went straight to the bottom of the 300’ hill and climbed easily to the top in pedal assist mode 4 (out of 5) going 7 mph and did it 3 times in a row with zero issues! This was all while I was in 4th gear even. 

I went back to the bottom and tried it using just the throttle. I made it to the top going 12.2 mph and the bike never struggled. 

I then took it on a 2 mile ride all over our farm, through mud and tall grass and the bike was a joy to ride. I was able to go wherever I wanted and never used anything more than pedal assist mode #3.

After 4 total miles of riding/testing I still have 77% battery life!

If I have anything complaint about the bike it is going to be with the seat! At first it feels fine but after a long ride through the fields I need a better one for sure!

This bike will not disappoint, no way - no how.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

Ok cool. No pics?


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

deer310sg said:


> Ok cool. No pics?





















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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Great update, No fenders or rack?

Good luck with it!


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Great update, No fenders or rack?
> 
> Good luck with it!


They are still out of stock.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

You planning on waiting in M2S specific or look into mid shovels etc...?


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

Here’s a couple updated pics of my DIY build. Since I last posted, I added fenders, installed a smaller front chain ring, reworked my rear cassette down from 10 gears to 3 (basically a low, medium, high), swapped my front and rear racks, and added saddle bags.

Originally, I was planning to pick up a gator gripp to put on the front rack to carry my bow. But the more I’ve ridden it, I really don’t like having much weight on the front as it makes it harder to steer. I also like the idea of carrying it vertically instead of horizontal. So what I came up with instead is to just use one of the saddle bags to set my bow down into, and then use some rubber wire ties to secure it at the top. I’ve tested it out and it holds it securely in place and I much prefer this over having it on the front rack.

EDIT - Sorry, I just realized this is a different ebike thread than I had posted in about my DIY build previously...


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

shdw633 said:


> BTW, you are probably not going to like that seat either, they are tough on areas you don't need to be tough on. An oversized seat really makes a ton of difference in riding your new bike. This is just an example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Oversized-Co...e+seat&qid=1584171164&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-4
> 
> I know I am hitting you with a lot of things but I went through them by trial and error for the season after I got my bike. These are just things that I know I either encountered or had to change in order to make the bike work for me as far as comfort and making sure I am get back from where I am going.


LOL!!! We told you about the seat!!!


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

Looks great, like the saddlebag idea. I have the same rambo bags. They are made pretty stout.


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

E-bike tagged


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

What did you think of the gator gripp


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

ReezenHunter said:


> Here’s a couple updated pics of my DIY build. Since I last posted, I added fenders, installed a smaller front chain ring, reworked my rear cassette down from 10 gears to 3 (basically a low, medium, high), swapped my front and rear racks, and added saddle bags.
> 
> Originally, I was planning to pick up a gator gripp to put on the front rack to carry my bow. But the more I’ve ridden it, I really don’t like having much weight on the front as it makes it harder to steer. I also like the idea of carrying it vertically instead of horizontal. So what I came up with instead is to just use one of the saddle bags to set my bow down into, and then use some rubber wire ties to secure it at the top. I’ve tested it out and it holds it securely in place and I much prefer this over having it on the front rack.
> 
> EDIT - Sorry, I just realized this is a different ebike thread than I had posted in about my DIY build previously...


I missed you’re earlier posts...curious what tires you have on that bike?


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

ReezenHunter said:


> Here’s a couple updated pics of my DIY build. Since I last posted, I added fenders, installed a smaller front chain ring, reworked my rear cassette down from 10 gears to 3 (basically a low, medium, high), swapped my front and rear racks, and added saddle bags.
> 
> Originally, I was planning to pick up a gator gripp to put on the front rack to carry my bow. But the more I’ve ridden it, I really don’t like having much weight on the front as it makes it harder to steer. I also like the idea of carrying it vertically instead of horizontal. So what I came up with instead is to just use one of the saddle bags to set my bow down into, and then use some rubber wire ties to secure it at the top. I’ve tested it out and it holds it securely in place and I much prefer this over having it on the front rack.
> 
> EDIT - Sorry, I just realized this is a different ebike thread than I had posted in about my DIY build previously...


Were did you get rear basket from, bike shop ?


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

ruffme said:


> What did you think of the gator gripp


I didn’t end up buying it. The more I thought about it, I decided I would rather come up with a way to carry it vertically and on the back rack instead of the front for a couple different reasons. 

For one, I didn’t like how having weight on the front made it harder to steer. But also, I had concerns about being able to transport it with the Gator Gripp. My dad picked up a Rambo last year as well, so we carry both of our ebikes on a hitch bike carrier and I was concerned with the Gator Gripp they wouldn’t fit side by side because it sticks out so much.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

ReezenHunter said:


> I didn’t end up buying it. The more I thought about it, I decided I would rather come up with a way to carry it vertically and on the back rack instead of the front for a couple different reasons.
> 
> For one, I didn’t like how having weight on the front made it harder to steer. But also, I had concerns about being able to transport it with the Gator Gripp. My dad picked up a Rambo last year as well, so we carry both of our ebikes on a hitch bike carrier and I was concerned with the Gator Gripp they wouldn’t fit side by side because it sticks out so much.


I'm getting one today, I'm planning on mounting it to my rear rack. We will see how it goes. I'll post up once I deal with it.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

How bout those tires??


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> I missed you’re earlier posts...curious what tires you have on that bike?


The bike I used for my build was a Framed Wolftrax 17”. The tires that came on it were Chao Yang 24 x 4”.


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

V-TRAIN said:


> Were did you get rear basket from, bike shop ?





V-TRAIN said:


> Were did you get rear basket from, bike shop ?


Nope, just got it from Amazon. It looks a little funny, but I’ve actually found it to be very useful. With bike racks being so narrow, it was difficult to get my backpack and other gear strapped down. So that was the cheapest and easiest solution I came up with.

I’ve been getting ready for turkey season, so a couple days ago I was experimenting with how I’m going to pack all my gear. I was surprised I was actually able to fit my DSD strutter, 4 hen decoys in the basket, and my bow all on the back. Here’s a link to the basket and a couple pics of how I was put all those dekes on it. The strutter is hanging down a bit low, but I’m just going to use some rubber wire ties to secure the strap at the top of the basket.


SUNLITE Rack Top Wire https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZMBMQ6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_NlZJEb24EJKPZ


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

How do you get on that? LOL..


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

ruffme said:


> How do you get on that? LOL..


What do you mean? The same way you should get on and off any bike. You straddle the top tube, then just stand on a pedal to get on the seat to get going. Then when you are ready to stop, you slide forward off the seat and stand on the ground. If you can’t straddle the top tube, then your bike frame size is too big for your height.


https://youtu.be/wpMQ6rK0hvw


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

ReezenHunter said:


> What do you mean? The same way you should get on and off any bike. You straddle the top tube, then just stand on a pedal to get on the seat to get going. Then when you are ready to stop, you slide forward off the seat and stand on the ground. If you can’t straddle the top tube, then your bike frame size is too big for your height.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/wpMQ6rK0hvw


I like to swing a leg over.:darkbeer:


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## jmeddy (Mar 4, 2006)

I have an M2S 750w rear hub with 800 miles on it. Like it & it does what I want of it.. THAT being said #1 746 watts is 1 hp, not much for steep hills: #2 traction is another thing you will lose on steep inclines. They are not gas motored dirt bikes


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

jmeddy said:


> I have an M2S 750w rear hub with 800 miles on it. Like it & it does what I want of it.. THAT being said #1 746 watts is 1 hp, not much for steep hills: #2 traction is another thing you will lose on steep inclines. They are not gas motored dirt bikes


My 1500w Bafang Ultra mid-drive is an absolute beast! I tried climbing a super steep hill (28 % grade) in the woods today but didn’t make it. Not bc the bike didn’t have enough power. It has soo much torque that the front wheel kept coming up but when I stood up and leaned forward the back wheel would spin on the loose rock! That was all in ECO mode as well! SPORT mode gives even more torque!

My yard has a 13% grade (300’ long hill with 40’ elevation change) and I can climb it at 12.2 mph using just the throttle in ECO MODE.

This M2S All Terrain Ultra HT is an absolute stud of a bike and will go anywhere I take it! 3 days of riding so far and battery is still at 58%.


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## fallhnt (Apr 1, 2015)

ruffme said:


> I like to swing a leg over.[emoji481]


Guess you'll have to have a cart on your bike

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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

ReezenHunter said:


> Here’s a couple updated pics of my DIY build. Since I last posted, I added fenders, installed a smaller front chain ring, reworked my rear cassette down from 10 gears to 3 (basically a low, medium, high), swapped my front and rear racks, and added saddle bags.


Reezen, thanks for posting. 
Question....does that bike of yours have pedal assist...or do you always have to engage the throttle?

If assist...does it have varying degrees of assist you can select?

How does it feel when you ride it?....on flats....in the muck....and on steep slopes....if you can please explain that

Lastly....will it make it up steep hills? How far have you gone on a charge?


Inquiring minds.....thanks


______


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

fallhnt said:


> Guess you'll have to have a cart on your bike
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Yes sir, 
Got my Gator Gripp yesterday so time to get it all setup for Wednesday.
I'm going to throw a little cargo net over the top of everything so it can't bounce out.

At first the trailer was pretty noisy, but i put some pipe insulation around some of the tubes and once loaded the bottom stopped rattling.


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

Beendare said:


> Reezen, thanks for posting.
> Question....does that bike of yours have pedal assist...or do you always have to engage the throttle?
> 
> If assist...does it have varying degrees of assist you can select?
> ...


It has both pedal assist and throttle, you can use either or. I typically use pedal assist except when I’m going up steep hills or muck, for that I just use the throttle. Using throttle by itself drains more battery. On the pedal assist, I can set within the display settings how many levels of power assist I want to select from up to 9.

Mine has powered through anything I’ve taken it through or up including really steep inclines. But keep in mind, I went with Luna cycles “Hot Rod” programming which I believe is a max of 1500 watts and I also went with a small front chain ring to have more torque so it has a lot of power.

For $20, you can also get a programming cable to tweak the power settings however you want. I just got one a few weeks ago but haven’t played with it yet. Here’s a link to the cable which also has links to guides on how to do it:

https://lunacycle.com/parts/bafang-parts/bbshd-parts/bafang-bbs02-and-bbshd-programming-cable/

I have taken it up extremely steep inclines and big hills and I’ve yet to need to use full throttle to get up them. My dad has a 750w mid drive Rambo and his has been able to make it up the same hills but he has to use full throttle and doesn’t make it up nearly as easily as mine. Honestly, it worries me more coming back down those hills than going up, which is why I’ll likely upgrade to hydraulic brakes before deer season lol

As far as battery, I need to pay better attention to see how much distance I’m getting out of it. But so far, even with the smaller battery I bought, it’s been sufficient for my needs. Based on what I’ve read on the battery I have, it should be good for 5-6 miles if only using throttle, or 10-12 if using pedal assist. Ultimately it will depend based on how much power you’re drawing and how much you’re using throttle vs pedal assist. 

But if you need more than that, they have much larger batteries that’ll go 50-60 miles. However, I didn’t have space for one of the large ones in the triangle of my bike frame. If I end up needing more, I plan on just buying a second one and wiring them in parallel or just keep it in a saddle bag as a backup if needed.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Thanks Reezen. 

I've been watching vids on Youtube on how to install one of those mid drive motors and its crazy how easy it is [with a couple specialized tools] 

I'm looking hard at one of those Bafang motors. It didn't help that hiking on the mountain trail today I had 3 guys zip past on E bikes. The one guy had a $8,000 Specialized model...but he was saying a couple buddies did the conversions and they love them. 

_____


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

ReezenHunter said:


> It has both pedal assist and throttle, you can use either or. I typically use pedal assist except when I’m going up steep hills or muck, for that I just use the throttle. Using throttle by itself drains more battery. On the pedal assist, I can set within the display settings how many levels of power assist I want to select from up to 9.
> 
> Mine has powered through anything I’ve taken it through or up including really steep inclines. But keep in mind, I went with Luna cycles “Hot Rod” programming which I believe is a max of 1500 watts and I also went with a small front chain ring to have more torque so it has a lot of power.
> 
> ...


Luna has a Black Box programmer that will unlock that Rambo of your Dads and allow him to do the same to his bike that you are doing with yours in regards to upping the wattage of the bike. I think it's around $150. Just curious... how much do you have invested in your bike so far?


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Turns out, Installing a motor kit on an existing bike is not a bad way to go. 

With the right parts and a few tools- assuming you are mechanically inclined, this site walks you though the steps...and helps you determine which parts to order [key factor to an easy install]
Link is to the DIY E Bike forum
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/knowledge-base/motors-and-kits/bbshd/44413-how-to-pick-out-a-bbshd-kit-for-your-build

All the info you need is right here^


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

Beendare said:


> Turns out, Installing a motor kit on an existing bike is not a bad way to go.
> 
> With the right parts and a few tools- assuming you are mechanically inclined, this site walks you though the steps...and helps you determine which parts to order [key factor to an easy install]
> Link is to the DIY E Bike forum
> ...


I’ve been PM’ing with some folks but I thought I would share a few comments. The install itself is probably the most simple part of the whole process. But there will likely be other things you’ll need to do before and after that will be more time consuming. All the information is available through the resources you shared and YouTube videos, but just need to understand there’s more involved than just slapping a motor and battery on your bike. 

As those guides will explain, you’ll first need to determine what type of bottom bracket you have and the width of your bottom bracket shell. My advice to anyone that’s going to do a diy build is to go ahead and buy the $40 toolkit from Luna. At the very least, you will need the crank puller, bottom bracket tool, and wrench for the motor. The cost for those alone buying them individually will be as much as the toolkit. It comes with a couple different bottom bracket tools, but there are many different bottom bracket types. So you may still need to buy a bottom bracket tool if yours is a less common type. I also didn’t have a digital caliper, so I bought a cheap one in order to be able to take the necessary measurements to make sure I ordered the right kit.

After the install, be prepared that your chain length will need to be adjusted and you will need to reindex your gears to make them shift correctly. This is because of two things that change once you install the motor - more than likely, the chain ring that comes with the kit or you pick out (my advice is go with a smaller front chain ring than the stock Bafang one for more torque) will be a different size than the one that was on your bike previously. Second, depending how much offset the chain ring has, it will impact the straightness of your chain line.

If you have a bike with a standard rear cassette and derailer (not an IGH) you will quickly realize you no longer need all the gears (ie 10) and it actually becomes a pain trying to shift between all of them once you have a motor. I would suggest considering reworking your rear cassette down to 3-4 gears, basically a low, medium, high. This will also help with straightening your chain line. This again will require adjusting the chain length and reindexing your gears. 

The toolkit comes with a chain whip tool and the socket needed to take apart the rear cassette. It also comes with a chain breaker tool you can use to break chain links if you have a Shimano style chain. The only additional tool I purchased that wasn’t in the kit is a set of master link pliers. It makes breaking the master link loose so much easier. But you only need this if your chain has master links instead of the Shimano style chain. Here’s a guide to reworking the rear cassette.

https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...o-rework-rear-sprockets-for-mid-drive-systems


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Good stuff Reezen...thx. Bafang comes with a 46T chain ring....what would you recommend for more power in the hills? 40, 36,32? I'm thinking about ordering that Luna ellipse 40T that has more offset for better chain angle....but I think I want 32 or 36T chain ring as I'm a big guy 240#.

I ordered my kit from Bafang USA direct today a little over $1300 with the big battery.....too much time on my hands- grin. I wanted that Ultra motor...but didn't want to spend $4k to get it so Im getting the BBSHD. I'm going to rework my 29'er.

here;
https://www.bafangusadirect.com/bafang-1000w-bbshd-mid-drive-motor-and-battery-p/165.htm


turns out my front chain ring is worn and shot and that bike needs some TLC...so I'm killing 2 birds with one arrow.

Everything a guy needs to know about walking you through ordering, build, adjustment, troubleshooting is at my link post #278- great site

_______
______


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Did you include the shift sensor?
I would highly recommend if you didn't.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

ruffme said:


> Did you include the shift sensor?
> I would highly recommend if you didn't.


Yep.... worthless to me without that


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

Beendare said:


> Good stuff Reezen...thx. Bafang comes with a 46T chain ring....what would you recommend for more power in the hills? 40, 36,32? I'm thinking about ordering that Luna ellipse 40T that has more offset for better chain angle....but I think I want 32 or 36T chain ring as I'm a big guy 240#.
> 
> I ordered my kit from Bafang USA direct today a little over $1300 with the big battery.....too much time on my hands- grin. I wanted that Ultra motor...but didn't want to spend $4k to get it so Im getting the BBSHD. I'm going to rework my 29'er.
> 
> ...


I would go with the 32T chain ring if you are going to be climbing hills, I myself am going to that based on what those that have it have said to me. You will lose 1 or 2 mph's top end but if will pay off when you hit the hills. There is a big discussion on the Rambo's owner's site about it right now and the guys that have them rave about them so I am picking one up for my bike.


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

shdw633 said:


> I would go with the 32T chain ring if you are going to be climbing hills, I myself am going to that based on what those that have it have said to me. You will lose 1 or 2 mph's top end but if will pay off when you hit the hills. There is a big discussion on the Rambo's owner's site about it right now and the guys that have them rave about them so I am picking one up for my bike.


Yea, I’m by no means the expert, but based on the research I did the smaller you go on the front chain ring, the more torque you will have but you sacrifice top speed. For an off-road bike that I’m only planning to use for hunting, I wanted as much torque as possible, I could careless how fast it will top out at. 

My suggestion would be to go ahead and throw the stock Bafang one on there first when you get your kit just to give you an idea how much offset you need to get your chain line straight. I actually went with the Luna Mighty Mule 30T front chain ring which has no offset and they sell it for only $45. However, you won’t be able to run one like this without any offset unless you have an IGH or rework your rear cassette like I did. Here’s a guide that walks through offset and compares some of their different chain ring options:


https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...kits/bbshd/20359-bbshd-chainring-offset-guide


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

The reworking the cassette is in the cards for me but going to check mine first. 

I found a build on the site above I linked that was my bike[ there must be 1,000 build threads there, should be able to ind your bike] and the guy couldn't fit the small front 32 chain ring- bummer.

This is opening a whole can of worms for me as I've never liked the cheap disc brakes on my bike. At my size...now plus the extra weight of the electric...no way those small [160,140mm] brakes are going to stop me. Its something to consider with these E Bikes. 

I think I'm going to swap them with the Avid guides or the Shimano Zees and larger rotors.....I should have done that years ago anyway. This thread is costing me $$$$- grin

___


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

Just got done with my build today after setting up my rear derailer ! I installed a bafang BBSHD in Hot Rod mode with a Dire Wolf 52v 21ah battery. I also replaced the cheap cassette with the best one I could get for 7 speed and replaced the derailer with a Shimano Acera, I also beefed up the rotors to Shimano Deore Ice 180mm and 160mm and then installed Shimano Deore XT Hydraulic brakes. I went with the 30T mini chain ring for the torque as was mentioned by Reezen for climbing hills not for speed. I also added new chain, pedals and a new seat with suspension seat post, I have added Mud fenders front and rear plus a rear rack and just ordered a basket with small cargo net and a front handlebar bag. Plus I put a 860c full color display on it. The only thing I didn't replace was the rims and tires as they were in great shape. I did tear it all down and clean and then repack all the bearings. I got it out for its first run today and it performed flawless ! I did however find that I needed to add something behind my legs to block the water and I plan on using zip ties to attaching a part of an intertube up the frame to help from getting my legs wet. Beendare i'm not sure what motor kit and battery you got for that price but everything I did I have about $3,000 in mine. You will definatly want to upgrade your brakes and I hope you ordered the correct display because there are only a couple that work correctly with the 52v batteries ! I found out the hard way !
Here are a couple pics of my bike as soon as I got it done !


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

redlab said:


> Just got done with my build today after setting up my rear derailer ! I installed a bafang BBSHD in Hot Rod mode with a Dire Wolf 52v 21ah battery. I also replaced the cheap cassette with the best one I could get for 7 speed and replaced the derailer with a Shimano Acera, I also beefed up the rotors to Shimano Deore Ice 180mm and 160mm and then installed Shimano Deore XT Hydraulic brakes. I went with the 30T mini chain ring for the torque as was mentioned by Reezen for climbing hills not for speed. I also added new chain, pedals and a new seat with suspension seat post, I have added Mud fenders front and rear plus a rear rack and just ordered a basket with small cargo net and a front handlebar bag. Plus I put a 860c full color display on it. The only thing I didn't replace was the rims and tires as they were in great shape. I did tear it all down and clean and then repack all the bearings. I got it out for its first run today and it performed flawless ! I did however find that I needed to add something behind my legs to block the water and I plan on using zip ties to attaching a part of an intertube up the frame to help from getting my legs wet. Beendare i'm not sure what motor kit and battery you got for that price but everything I did I have about $3,000 in mine. You will definatly want to upgrade your brakes and I hope you ordered the correct display because there are only a couple that work correctly with the 52v batteries ! I found out the hard way !
> Here are a couple pics of my bike as soon as I got it done !
> View attachment 7134411
> 
> ...


Wow, you spent $3k and only got the cheap Bafang motor? Should’ve spent $2700 and got the M2S Ultra HT with the Bafang Ultra middrive motor!!!!


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

pabuck said:


> Wow, you spent $3k and only got the cheap Bafang motor? Should’ve spent $2700 and got the M2S Ultra HT with the Bafang Ultra middrive motor!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In his defense, some of his components are a little nicer than what's on a M2S, like the 30t chain ring, suspension seat post, 52v 21ah battery, etc. etc.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Agreed it’s an awesome build...should have more than enough torque to handle anything anyone would throw at it...the battery could be deceiving depending on the brand, a quality 52volt batt is likely going to run $800+ range...AND he built himself and can likely handle anything that may happen...there is A LOT to be said for that....

My wife and I ran into a guy about 3 miles back on a $10k Mavin with a busted chain link...he didn’t have the first idea how it what to do...I think it was trying to call an Ebike Uber when we came upon him[emoji23]


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

2^ Really good one! Like my dad used to tell me back in the early 70's when was into 4X4 trucks, all they do is get you farther into the woods when you get stuck & the winch is always on the wrong end!


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Agreed it’s an awesome build...should have more than enough torque to handle anything anyone would throw at it...the battery could be deceiving depending on the brand, a quality 52volt batt is likely going to run $800+ range...AND he built himself and can likely handle anything that may happen...there is A LOT to be said for that....
> 
> My wife and I ran into a guy about 3 miles back on a $10k Mavin with a busted chain link...he didn’t have the first idea how it what to do...I think it was trying to call an Ebike Uber when we came upon him[emoji23]


I can’t laugh bc I don’t know anything about working on bikes.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

pabuck said:


> I can’t laugh bc I don’t know anything about working on bikes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Make sure you have a small kit in you backpack that has a some basic tools, YouTube is your friend LOTS of great basic bike repair vids available.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> Make sure you have a small kit in you backpack that has a some basic tools, YouTube is your friend LOTS of great basic bike repair vids available.


Yeah, I can't echo this enough. Where you're going with these bikes typically you need to know how to repair a flat (plug and/or change a tube), fix a broken chain and reroute to a single speed if you wreck your rear derailleur (or need to remove a section of bent chain). Most of the rest you can deal with and get the bike back. If you can't do those, you're pushing or half carrying a 60# bike. Those are 3 issues that pop up and limit travel the most often.


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## PAbigbear (Sep 13, 2007)

Redlab-have you given any consideration on how you're going to lock yours up while you are hunting? I've been looking at U-locks and cables but trying to avoid paying for a kryptonite.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Just use a python


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

redlab said:


> .....
> 
> Beendare i'm not sure what motor kit and battery you got for that price but everything I did I have about $3,000 in mine. You will definatly want to upgrade your brakes and I hope you ordered the correct display because there are only a couple that work correctly with the 52v batteries ! I found out the hard way !



Nice build Red....sounds like we are of the same mind. You went all out. 

I can tell you they are selling the heck out of these kits right now....Luna didn't have the stand 68mm kit in stock....now I see bafangusadirect is out of those too..... along with the bigger batteries.

You have a little better battery than I ordered. I think mine is 52V 14.5 mah ultra shark battery [samsung]. My kit was $1335. inc tax through Bafangusadirect. 

This doesn't include my new brakes; the Shimanao Zee [essentially the same as your XT's] on sale at JensonUSA bikes [they have great online bike stuff, Performance is only soso] for the ridiculously low price of $119/ea for F&B. Add brackets for the bigger rotors $16/both. I went 203mm/180mm like yourself. The Jensons guy talked me into the good Ice rotors you bought....he says we will like them. $340 all in on the brakes. All I know is my current Tektro disc brakes are garbage even without the motor.

The display issue is news to me.....I just bought the base display with the kit. So this doesn't work at all with the 52V battery...or the current discharge isn't accurate?

I appreciate your advice....I knew there was going to be something to come up on this project.

_______


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Take your battery out and use two Pythons...one from your rear wheel to the frame, capturing pedal if you can and another to a tree or deadfall.

Locks only keep honest folks off, but someone would be pretty desperate to carry a 60lb+ bike through the woods...would turn enough heads too that you probably get some 411 about the their if anyone else is around. Lots of guys also store them where they can watch them from their stands


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## ReezenHunter (Sep 20, 2009)

Beendare said:


> Nice build Red....sounds like we are of the same mind. You went all out.
> 
> I can tell you they are selling the heck out of these kits right now....Luna didn't have the stand 68mm kit in stock....now I see bafangusadirect is out of those too..... along with the bigger batteries.
> 
> ...


I’m assuming they are also out of stock because they import the kits from China and supply chain has to be impacted by everything going on right now. 

My understanding is the Bafang display will work, it will just not read the voltage from a 52v system accurately as it only supports up to 48v. Luna makes a few different displays that will support 52v.


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## PAbigbear (Sep 13, 2007)

12-Ringer said:


> Take your battery out and use two Pythons...one from your rear wheel to the frame, capturing pedal if you can and another to a tree or deadfall.
> 
> Locks only keep honest folks off, but someone would be pretty desperate to carry a 60lb+ bike through the woods...would turn enough heads too that you probably get some 411 about the their if anyone else is around. Lots of guys also store them where they can watch them from their stands


I was leaning towards the U-lock so I can lock the wheel to the frame, then a cable through the wheels and around a tree back to the lock. If someone wanted it they'd have to cut the cable and carry it out. Some of the better U-locks look indestructible, cables not so much. The battery locks to the frame so I'm not worried about that. With turkey hunting I could park it and end up on another mountain so I can't always be in a spot where I can see it.


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## Camp (May 30, 2010)

I have got a Rambo an I love it 


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

I haven't really looked into a locking system yet. But will start looking soon !
The reason I have so much money in it is several different reason ! I bought several things to upgrade everything on this bike except the tires and rims as I bought it used for $200. I replaced the nylon gears in the motor with the new upgrades made of metal so I didn't strip them out when I'm in the back woods with the bike ordered in the Hot Rod mode ! I also bought the program cable so I can set it where I want it. The battery was $800 plus $50 for shipping and I bought a good charger ! I got the gear sensor and the hydraulic brake sensors. I have $350 in my brakes and rotors, bleed kit and tools required to fix it all. I bought 3 different mud shovel fenders. I bought the upgraded 860c full color display which reads true up to 60v. A new seat and suspension seat post. New derailer, cassette sprocket, chain,7 speed Shimano shifter, Ibera rear bike rack, New kickstand, New comfort tech grips, I also have a basket, small cargo net for the basket and handlebar bag for tool kit on order. Like mentioned above I rebuilt the whole bike myself so I know every little nut and bolt on it and have the tools to fix anything that I need to now !! Plus I know myself that everything I put on this bike is very top notch parts 

Reezen you are correct about the display ! I'll let you know about the seat post after this weekend !!

Beendare you will love the brakes !! I bought the metallic pads with mine and the 4 piston calipers for good stopping power ! Good luck with your build buddy and if you have anything you come up on that you can't figure out we are here to help you ! Just ask !

I'll give you guys an update on how this bike works after this weekend !!


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## Rev44 (Dec 19, 2008)

Has anyone tried out a bike by Recon or Himiway ? Recon commando looks like a decent bike. Thinking about that or a Biktrix Juggernaut classic. 

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## bhey (Dec 24, 2012)

Not sure about WV, but PA not legal yet. Game Commission is considering allowing class one and two.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I may have missed it...is your post in response to a question?


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## messer454 (Jun 13, 2020)

stikbow208 said:


> You'll likely get some "mine's the best " replies so look for what appeals to you. I have a Rambo 750 that pulls a 300+ lb man on the cart with ease but that may not happen on steep hills. The 1000 watt motors will have more power but may not be legal in some places. Mid motors have very good torque but you will need to carry a chain repair kit because the bike is useless with a broken chain, where a rear hub drive can still be ridden with power. A front shock will be more comfortable as will a better seat.


I am just getting in to this and it sounds like I am about the same size you describe. Have you tried to pull a deer and yourself also with a Rambo 750?


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## BartonJ (Oct 13, 2018)

This is what is needed to repair a chain. It fits right in with the other tools you should carry like a pump, patch kit, and multi-tool. While a hub motor may be exactly what someone needs, I wouldn't let the need to carry this tool affect the decision of what to get.


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## bassmasterjk (Nov 29, 2015)

tagged


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

messer454 said:


> I am just getting in to this and it sounds like I am about the same size you describe. Have you tried to pull a deer and yourself also with a Rambo 750?


My weight stays between 185-190 and the man I pulled on the cart weighs a bit over 300. The bike pulled him with ease but that was on fairly level ground and it may have been too much on a hill.


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## messer454 (Jun 13, 2020)

stikbow208 said:


> My weight stays between 185-190 and the man I pulled on the cart weighs a bit over 300. The bike pulled him with ease but that was on fairly level ground and it may have been too much on a hill.


Thanks for the info. That is what I needed! I am wanting to be able to drag a deer on a cart on flat farm ground and could not get an answer searching online.


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## shdw633 (Mar 28, 2010)

I have a Rambo 750 cart and I weigh in at 275 and drag my 200 pound buddy all over the place on our lease. Predominately flat land with some hills but it all gets handled well with my bike and cart combo.


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## stikbow208 (Dec 15, 2013)

messer454 said:


> Thanks for the info. That is what I needed! I am wanting to be able to drag a deer on a cart on flat farm ground and could not get an answer searching online.


If you load the deer so most of the weight is over the wheels you won't know the deer is there, but if you load with too much weight high on the cart it will make the front of the bike too light and hard to control.


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## MTGriz (Jul 17, 2015)

+1 the Quietkat bikes are made in Colorado and have much better torque than the Rambo bikes. If you are climbing hills or mountains they will outperform the Rambo bike. I easily pulled 2 elk quarters on a trailer up hill last season. It was around zero degrees btw. I was surprised at how the electronics functioned at that temp.


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## Maurice316 (Jul 31, 2016)

Mule


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## going2fast (Nov 14, 2011)

Built my own. Call it the billygoat. Will climb anything. I've tried super steep slopes and the bike would have climbed if I was able to stay on it. 2000$ total. 700 for the bike used, 700 for the bbshd and 500 for the battery. DO NOT skimp on the battery and definitely do not buy one off eBay or Alibaba. It will almost always be fake cells and a fire hazard. Got the motor and battery from lunacycle.motor will max out at 1600 watts with the 52 volt battery. You need a 30 tooth chainring up front for mad torque.
Ricky


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

MTGriz said:


> +1 the Quietkat bikes are made in Colorado and have much better torque than the Rambo bikes. If you are climbing hills or mountains they will outperform the Rambo bike. I easily pulled 2 elk quarters on a trailer up hill last season. It was around zero degrees btw. I was surprised at how the electronics functioned at that temp.


How can that be?They all use the same Bafang motors.Other than that,gearing will make a difference but that isn't brand specific.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

BartonJ said:


> This is what is needed to repair a chain. It fits right in with the other tools you should carry like a pump, patch kit, and multi-tool. While a hub motor may be exactly what someone needs, I wouldn't let the need to carry this tool affect the decision of what to get.
> View attachment 7180805


I have the bafang kit on a 29er and finally have my broken chain issues worked out. 

FWIW, *I wouldn't use those universal master links shown* above that clip together.....the torque [and probably my significant bulk] snap those links at high assist on hills.

I'm using the Shimano XT chain with the solid link pins and those work.

_______


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Who’s riding a Bakcou Mule? I just sold my Rambo and seriously considering going with the Mule.

For those who own one, what are the pros and cons.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Up


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

rutman said:


> Who’s riding a Bakcou Mule? I just sold my Rambo and seriously considering going with the Mule.
> 
> For those who own one, what are the pros and cons.
> 
> ...


I had the opportunity to work with one for about a week...very nice, couldn't really say anything bad about it other than the price tag ($4700+taxes/fees) so if that's not an issue for you, go for it - you won't be disapointed...there are almost identical bikes available for significantly less money,,,,take for example the M2S Ultra ($3000+taxes/fees)....if you can't get your hands on either, do a side-by-side comparison on the web...you just might be surprised. I could not justify the extra cost for the minor differences...even considering Bacou throws in the rack, fenders, headlight and 2amp charger...the M2S Ultra has the same exact motor/controller/throttle/display, a better quality, longer run-time battery, the saddle on the Ultra is better, the seat post on the mule was nicer, the front brakes on the Mule are better, the Ultra has 44t cassette as compared to the 40 on them Mule, Ultra's chain is better quality....etc...

Check them out on their sites, you'll see...I did like the Mule, but not $1550 more (about the difference once fenders, rack, and headlight were added)


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> I had the opportunity to work with one for about a week...very nice, couldn't really say anything bad about it other than the price tag ($4700+taxes/fees) so if that's not an issue for you, go for it - you won't be disapointed...there are almost identical bikes available for significantly less money,,,,take for example the M2S Ultra ($3000+taxes/fees)....if you can't get your hands on either, do a side-by-side comparison on the web...you just might be surprised. I could not justify the extra cost for the minor differences...even considering Bacou throws in the rack, fenders, headlight and 2amp charger...the M2S Ultra has the same exact motor/controller/throttle/display, a better quality, longer run-time battery, the saddle on the Ultra is better, the seat post on the mule was nicer, the front brakes on the Mule are better, the Ultra has 44t cassette as compared to the 40 on them Mule, Ultra's chain is better quality....etc...
> 
> Check them out on their sites, you'll see...I did like the Mule, but not $1550 more (about the difference once fenders, rack, and headlight were added)


Awesome information! Thanks. That’s exactly what I was looking for. Well I ended up and pulled the trigger on the Bakcou Mule from ebike generation. Was the price stupid high? Definitely. I upgraded to the 21ah battery so that ran it up. I got the package that comes with the deer trailer and bags. It came in yesterday and I rode it around the yard. Can’t tell too much about it, but I think it’s more than twice the bike my Rambo was. I’ll more interested to see how well it climbs hills without struggling. 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

rutman said:


> Awesome information! Thanks. That’s exactly what I was looking for. Well I ended up and pulled the trigger on the Bakcou Mule from ebike generation. Was the price stupid high? Definitely. I upgraded to the 21ah battery so that ran it up. I got the package that comes with the deer trailer and bags. It came in yesterday and I rode it around the yard. Can’t tell too much about it, but I think it’s more than twice the bike my Rambo was. I’ll more interested to see how well it climbs hills without struggling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh...you WON'T be disappointed, its an awesome bike, that mid drive Ultra can handle A LOT...you'll be glad you spent on the extra battery, especially if you're hauling or tackling steep grades. Post some pics and your thoughts...I know I'm not the only one who will be interested in your thoughts....

Curious - Did it come assembled...

if you got the package with the gator grip bow holder, my advice is to toss it...you will want have you bow on your back or strapped to pack sandwiched between clothing in a basket ..I have witnessed too many guys jack up their rigs trying to transport them on those gator-type racks and it didn't matter if the racks were mounted to he rear pannier rack or the handlebars...just a little bit of "learn from others mistakes" advice.

Good luck with it.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Mount your gator-grip to the trailer for hauling other gear like limb saws etc.
I agree, putting your bow in one and having it stick so far out to the sides is a recipe for jacked-up strings, cams, etc.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

rutman said:


> Awesome information! Thanks. That’s exactly what I was looking for. Well I ended up and pulled the trigger on the Bakcou Mule from ebike generation. Was the price stupid high? Definitely. I upgraded to the 21ah battery so that ran it up. I got the package that comes with the deer trailer and bags. It came in yesterday and I rode it around the yard. Can’t tell too much about it, but I think it’s more than twice the bike my Rambo was. I’ll more interested to see how well it climbs hills without struggling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a Rambo and a M2S ultra.The Ultra is also twice the bike that the mule is.I have a gator grip on my handle bars and it works perfect.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

dougell said:


> I have a Rambo and a M2S ultra.The Ultra is also twice the bike that the mule is.I have a gator grip on my handle bars and it works perfect.


I tried the gator-grip on my handle bars. I've got some tight spots to get through and it's worrisome.
I put it on my trailer parallel to the sides and it works GREAT for attaching just about anything.

Dougell, is the Ultra twice the bike just based on the motor or the whole bike in general?


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I think he meant twice the bike that the Rambo is...not the Mule, but I could be wrong.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

ruffme said:


> I tried the gator-grip on my handle bars. I've got some tight spots to get through and it's worrisome.
> I put it on my trailer parallel to the sides and it works GREAT for attaching just about anything.
> 
> Dougell, is the Ultra twice the bike just based on the motor or the whole bike in general?


Helped a buddy last season who dumped his bike with the Gator on the handlebars and his rig was jacked, broke the sight and severely damaged the rest. He was nOT being reckless at all, just didn't see a rock on the trail as he rounded a turn. Best I've seen it used is in a trailer as you mention, but a lot of my buddies aren't hauling trailers unless they're in retrieval mode...I prefer keeping it on my back with a standard bowsling.


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## Bowfreak (Jul 23, 2002)

going2fast said:


> Built my own. Call it the billygoat. Will climb anything. I've tried super steep slopes and the bike would have climbed if I was able to stay on it. 2000$ total. 700 for the bike used, 700 for the bbshd and 500 for the battery. DO NOT skimp on the battery and definitely do not buy one off eBay or Alibaba. It will almost always be fake cells and a fire hazard. Got the motor and battery from lunacycle.motor will max out at 1600 watts with the 52 volt battery. You need a 30 tooth chainring up front for mad torque.
> Ricky


How hard was this to do? My wife and I have a couple late 90's Gary Fisher mountain bikes that were pretty good bikes back in the day I would love to convert over.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> Oh...you WON'T be disappointed, its an awesome bike, that mid drive Ultra can handle A LOT...you'll be glad you spent on the extra battery, especially if you're hauling or tackling steep grades. Post some pics and your thoughts...I know I'm not the only one who will be interested in your thoughts....
> 
> Curious - Did it come assembled...
> 
> ...


I didn’t get the gator grip. Like you said, too many things can potentially go wrong with a bow strapped on it and sticking out. 

It was pretty much 90% assembled. I had to put the handle bars, front wheel and pedals on. I can’t see the M2S bikes being twice the bike this is... As far as price goes, no doubt the M2S is a much better deal for the money. The only downside to the bike compared to the Rambo I had is it having a derailer instead of the internal hub gear system. But I don’t go thru any crp or brush fields, so I’m hoping it’s a non issue.











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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Bowfreak said:


> How hard was this to do? My wife and I have a couple late 90's Gary Fisher mountain bikes that were pretty good bikes back in the day I would love to convert over.


Not too terrible, there are tons of DIY tutorials and resources avaialble online, YouTube is a good place to start and there are plenty of worm holes to get into from there.....a guy at work did it and trust me when I say this....if HE could do it, I think anyone could....when he was done, he said he had $1900 invested...can't remember what the specifics were.....


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

rutman said:


> I didn’t get the gator grip. Like you said, too many things can potentially go wrong with a bow strapped on it and sticking out.
> 
> It was pretty much 90% assembled. I had to put the handle bars, front wheel and pedals on. I can’t see the M2S bikes being twice the bike this is... As far as price goes, no doubt the M2S is a much better deal for the money. The only downside to the bike compared to the Rambo I had is it having a derailer instead of the internal hub gear system. But I don’t go thru any crp or brush fields, so I’m hoping it’s a non issue.
> 
> ...



Congrats....that's a sweet looking ride..I wish you well...update this thread with your thoughts and experiences as they occur....curious how you plan to transport it....most standard fat bike hitch racks are not rated for that weight. I think the Mule comes in around 70lbs; right?

Had a chance to work with the rack that team from timbertrail ebikes designed...pretty sure they are a PA based company. They have a hitch rack rated to handle their bikes and if I am not mistake the TimberTrails are 75lbs a piece. They aren't cheap at $250 for a single bike hitch hauler, but they are powder-coated, welded aircraft aluminum, and they include the loading ramps...they offer 2 and 3 bike versions as well, not sure what those costs are...

They represent a pretty interesting concept with two brush less hub motors...basically an AWD bike...haven't see the bike in person, only the rack and it was the nicest one in the lot...guy was a hauling a QuietKat with it..


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> Congrats....that's a sweet looking ride..I wish you well...update this thread with your thoughts and experiences as they occur....curious how you plan to transport it....most standard fat bike hitch racks are not rated for that weight. I think the Mule comes in around 70lbs; right?
> 
> Had a chance to work with the rack that team from timbertrail ebikes designed...pretty sure they are a PA based company. They have a hitch rack rated to handle their bikes and if I am not mistake the TimberTrails are 75lbs a piece. They aren't cheap at $250 for a single bike hitch hauler, but they are powder-coated, welded aircraft aluminum, and they include the loading ramps...they offer 2 and 3 bike versions as well, not sure what those costs are...
> 
> They represent a pretty interesting concept with two brush less hub motors...basically an AWD bike...haven't see the bike in person, only the rack and it was the nicest one in the lot...guy was a hauling a QuietKat with it..


I’ve got a Rambo bike hauler coming in today. It’s a 2 bike carrier. It should be up to the task of holding the bikes safely. If not, I’ll send it back next week and get a refund. I’m going to take the bike tomorrow on a mile long trip up a mountain road to go pull a climber that I left out. I’ll know after that how this bike will perform.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Rambo is coming out with 1000w dual hub motor awd bike this year. It’s crazy expensive though.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

ruffme said:


> I tried the gator-grip on my handle bars. I've got some tight spots to get through and it's worrisome.
> I put it on my trailer parallel to the sides and it works GREAT for attaching just about anything.
> 
> Dougell, is the Ultra twice the bike just based on the motor or the whole bike in general?


It;s all around twice the bike as the Rambo but my rambo is one of the originals.I have zero complaints with the M2S.I had an issue with the battery not charging and they send me a new battery.I can't complain about their customer service.I'm not a fan of the strmey archer hub that came with the Rambo.The concept is great but the threads on the hub are shallow so it's hard to get it tight enough without stripping something.I'm constantly having to adjust the chain.


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

rutman said:


> I’ve got a Rambo bike hauler coming in today. It’s a 2 bike carrier. It should be up to the task of holding the bikes safely. If not, I’ll send it back next week and get a refund. I’m going to take the bike tomorrow on a mile long trip up a mountain road to go pull a climber that I left out. I’ll know after that how this bike will perform.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought one last summer and I think it's a pos.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

dougell said:


> It;s all around twice the bike as the Rambo but my rambo is one of the originals.I have zero complaints with the M2S.I had an issue with the battery not charging and they send me a new battery.I can't complain about their customer service.I'm not a fan of the strmey archer hub that came with the Rambo.The concept is great but the threads on the hub are shallow so it's hard to get it tight enough without stripping something.I'm constantly having to adjust the chain.


The chain is definitely a PITA with the hub gears.... I got stuck in Kentucky in November having to walk my Rambo up hills because the chain would come off and I had no tools to tighten it up. 


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

dougell said:


> I bought one last summer and I think it's a pos.


That’s not good.... I might go ahead and send it back. Which one are you using now?

Looks like the 1 Up ones are really good.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I’ve only ever seen a 1UP quick rack and it was not very sturdy with an EBike on it, primarily because of the weight. In addition the the bike has to be lifted onto the rack and cannot be rolled on because of the way in which it locks on the tires. 

These bikes aren’t made for lifting...lol


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

I have the single bike one - up trailer and I like the quick load up and unload. You do have to lift it up on instead of roll it up on, so I just lift the front up on and then lift the back up on and I'm 60 and don't have a problem. I also built my own bike and I got the motor from luna cycle and got it in the Hot Rod mode which is 1200 watts which is there top wattage motor and I also got a 52 volt / 21 a/h battery. I'm not sure where the 1600 watt motor mentioned above came from because I talked to them at luna cycle and he told me that was the highest watt motor they had. Maybe he reprogramed it ! Anyway I also got a 30 tooth front chainring and I have never had a problem with any hills and that is with just throttle control no pedaling !


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

I watched a YouTube video of a guy reviewing his 1UP single and it looked rock solid with the Allen wrench lockdown mechanism that secures it in the trailer hitch. It eliminates all shaking of the bike when you’re driving down the road in the truck. It is pricey at over $400, but when you’ve got 5k in a bike, what’s another 400 I guess...


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## HoytShooter83 (Jan 7, 2009)

Backcou... We love ours and I'm from the NW, our coast range is pretty brutal.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I don't know if you have a pickup but I put my bike in the bed during the winter so as not to get covered in road salt.
This was simple to make and works very well.


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

rutman said:


> I watched a YouTube video of a guy reviewing his 1UP single and it looked rock solid with the Allen wrench lockdown mechanism that secures it in the trailer hitch. It eliminates all shaking of the bike when you’re driving down the road in the truck. It is pricey at over $400, but when you’ve got 5k in a bike, what’s another 400 I guess...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will say this when your on a mountain road that allen wrench loosens up so you have to check it all the time plus you have to secure a strap to the hitch and the receiver just in case it loosens up you don't loose your rake and bike ! I'm using the 1 1/4" receiver because I modified my cargo hauler so I can actually install my cargo hauler into my hitch on the truck and then slide my bike rake into the end of my cargo hauler so I can haul a deer and my bike all in one shot !


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## full moon64 (Jul 3, 2016)

MTR INFO | Mountain Research E Bikes


For Mountain Research E Bikes in Lebanon, Harrisburg & Lancaster, PA. Check out Swatara Creek Outfitters in Annville, PA.




www.swataracreekoutfitters.com


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

dougell said:


> I bought one last summer and I think it's a pos.


You’re right. This thing is a POS.... very disappointed. The bike barely fits on it and I wouldn’t trust to go to the mailbox and back.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

I’m going back to my aluminum dirt bike hauler and ratchet straps.... best hauler for can buy and $140 on Amazon 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

rutman said:


> I’m going back to my aluminum dirt bike hauler and ratchet straps.... best hauler for can buy and $140 on Amazon
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which one is that....


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

If anyone is looking to build one, I am thinking of selling my 2020 Vitus Escarpe VRS. It has mid-range components with a mix of Shimano XT and SLX and Fox front and rear shocks. After a couple of trail rides, I realized I am too old and fat for this. PM me if interested.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Perry24 How did you get your hands on a Vitus?


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> Which one is that....





https://www.amazon.com/Black-Widow-AMC-400-Hitch-Mounted-Motorcycle/dp/B001IUV1CM/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=black+widow+bike+carrier&qid=1611454621&sprefix=blackwidow+bike&sr=8-3




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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Nice bike Perry!!!!


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

ruffme said:


> Perry24 How did you get your hands on a Vitus?


I bought it used from a guy locally. He bought it just before COVID broke out from Chain Reaction Cycles.


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> Nice bike Perry!!!!


Thanks! It climbs great and is fast and stable on the downhills.


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## fallhnt (Apr 1, 2015)

Bowfreak said:


> How hard was this to do? My wife and I have a couple late 90's Gary Fisher mountain bikes that were pretty good bikes back in the day I would love to convert over.


If you worked on your bike in the day you can put the motor on. If not a bike shop would do it.

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## fallhnt (Apr 1, 2015)

rutman said:


> That’s not good.... I might go ahead and send it back. Which one are you using now?
> 
> Looks like the 1 Up ones are really good.
> 
> ...


1 Up is good

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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Perry24 said:


> Thanks! It climbs great and is fast and stable on the downhills.


They are nice bikes. My adult son got me back into trial riding last summer. It's about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. I'm old and fat too so why not go Emtb!
I got this last month on closeout. It's a 2019.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

fallhnt said:


> If you worked on your bike in the day you can put the motor on. If not a bike shop would do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


If you have the right donor bike.
It sounds easy to say just throw a motor on a bike but there is more to consider than that.
1. Brakes..I personally would not want a bike with rim caliper brakes for an ebike.
2. If you are going with a hub motor you have to be able to mount torque arms so the motor doesn't pull your drop outs apart.
3. Battery mounting. Does your frame traingle have room and bosses for a battery?
Mounting a battery in a rack over the rear wheel is a bad idea.
4. What kind/size bottom bracket do you have to fit the right kit.

Sure all these things came be over come, people do it every day, but if you just buy a kit and try to throw it on any old bike you may go down a very expensive rabbit hole.
Ask me how I know!


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

ruffme said:


> They are nice bikes. My adult son got me back into trial riding last summer. It's about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. I'm old and fat too so why not go Emtb!
> I got this last month on closeout. It's a 2019.
> View attachment 7347789


Very nice! They are just so darn expensive though.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Perry24 said:


> Very nice! They are just so darn expensive though.


Ya it was not cheap but buy once cry once, right?
I figured there is no price for quality out door time with the kid all summer.
I got my work wife into it as well so the three of us ride a couple times a week. It's a blast.

AND prices went up and there is virtually no stock!
I talked with a lot of shop owners they all said the same thing,
what's on the floor is what we have for the year. And there was nothing on the floor!
One owner said if you were not on the sheets the first week in January you would not be getting any stock until 2022!


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like you may want to hold in to that Perry...might be as valuable as the MegaMillions ticket


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

fallhnt said:


> 1 Up is good
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I own the 1 up but I would recommend the one that is posted from Amazon above ! I had already bought the 1 up before I saw the one on Amazon ! plus its only 1/3 of the price and has a ramp !


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

The guys in the local club have had several of the 1Ups fail in the..all citing problems with that Allen bolt...I have no reason not to believe them, but I don’t have any direct experience myself, yet.....


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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

rutman said:


> I’m going back to my aluminum dirt bike hauler and ratchet straps.... best hauler for can buy and $140 on Amazon
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have one of them as well.My son races Motorcross and I bought one because it's kind of a pain running one up a ramp because my truck sits pretty high.It works but honestly,it's a little sketchy.i'VE PUT MY m2s ON IT and it's still kinda sketchy because those big tires have so much give in them.


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

dougell said:


> I have one of them as well.My son races Motorcross and I bought one because it's kind of a pain running one up a ramp because my truck sits pretty high.It works but honestly,it's a little sketchy.i'VE PUT MY m2s ON IT and it's still kinda sketchy because those big tires have so much give in them.


It’s a lot less sketchy than than that Rambo hauler, lol. It’s terrible! I hauled my other bike on the dirt bike hauler last year. I never had an issue, but I tightened it up really good with the ratchet straps. Next best thing is probably hauling one on a tailgate cover. But it’s be rough getting the bike in and out of the truck bed every time. 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Again the rack that is made by the TimberTrail guys was pretty nice...not sure where anyone can see one in person though...I don’t know the owner of the one I saw...


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

You can’t beat this hauler for the price.











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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

It comes with a sleeve that secures the bike to the hitch to where there’s absolutely no wobble or bounce with the hauler.











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## Rev44 (Dec 19, 2008)

rutman said:


> You can’t beat this hauler for the price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just curious if you have ever been pulled over by police for this? Had a buddy get pulled over and given a ticket. Officer said he couldn't see the plate. 

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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Rev44 said:


> Just curious if you have ever been pulled over by police for this? Had a buddy get pulled over and given a ticket. Officer said he couldn't see the plate.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Which State was that? Never have heard of such a thing.


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## Rev44 (Dec 19, 2008)

12-Ringer said:


> Which State was that? Never have heard of such a thing.


He was traveling thru Illinois. 

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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Rev44 said:


> Just curious if you have ever been pulled over by police for this? Had a buddy get pulled over and given a ticket. Officer said he couldn't see the plate.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


No sir. When you’re direct behind the bike you can see the tag.


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## Rev44 (Dec 19, 2008)

rutman said:


> No sir. When you’re direct behind the bike you can see the tag.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok thanks! Was just wondering. 

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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

rutman said:


> It’s a lot less sketchy than than that Rambo hauler, lol. It’s terrible! I hauled my other bike on the dirt bike hauler last year. I never had an issue, but I tightened it up really good with the ratchet straps. Next best thing is probably hauling one on a tailgate cover. But it’s be rough getting the bike in and out of the truck bed every time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right the tail cover is nice. But a pain, especially have back issues. Looking for a good, reliable receiver hauler. Just a single is all I need?


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> The guys in the local club have had several of the 1Ups fail in the..all citing problems with that Allen bolt...I have no reason not to believe them, but I don’t have any direct experience myself, yet.....
> What hauler do you use, recommend?


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> The guys in the local club have had several of the 1Ups fail in the..all citing problems with that Allen bolt...I have no reason not to believe them, but I don’t have any direct experience myself, yet.....


Joe, what hauler do you use,, recommend.
All I need is a single hauler.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I don’t have one...that black widow seems nice...






Motorcycle Trailer Hitch Carriers | Black Widow


Easily transport your bike to your next adventure with the best hitch receiver mount motorcycle carriers from Black Widow Powersports.




www.blackwidowpro.com


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

deer310sg said:


> Right the tail cover is nice. But a pain, especially have back issues. Looking for a good, reliable receiver hauler. Just a single is all I need?


You’re not gonna beat this for the price. Lightweight aluminum with a 400lb rating, it’s solid as a rock.



https://www.amazon.com/Black-Widow-AMC-400-Hitch-Mounted-Motorcycle/dp/B001IUV1CM/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=black+widow+bike+carrier&qid=1612051557&sprefix=blackwidow+bike&sr=8-3




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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

What tires are some of you guys running and are you adding liners/slime, etc..to help with punctures.


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## born2kill (Mar 1, 2009)

12-Ringer said:


> What tires are some of you guys running and are you adding liners/slime, etc..to help with punctures.


I want to go tubeless but it is very expensive once you buy rims and tires. 


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

born2kill said:


> I want to go tubeless but it is very expensive once you buy rims and tires.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Almost all of guys in the club are running tubeless minions but man those set-ups (rims/tires) are pricey


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## born2kill (Mar 1, 2009)

I have searched for a cheaper alternative but, to my knowledge, there is no way to purchase that set up with spending 800-1000.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

born2kill said:


> I have searched for a cheaper alternative but, to my knowledge, there is no way to purchase that set up with spending 800-1000.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


....and still no guarantee you won’t get a flat [emoji849]


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

I found my hauler. Gonna go with the harbor freight 400 lb motorcycle carrier. Reviews, youtube vids are great. So is the cost. $139.99, have a 20% off coupon on top of that. Local store has 2 in stock. Will have one by the weekend.


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Can you guys tell me if you think my state game lands prohibit E-bikes? I'm not certain this only means gas powered motors or all motors including electric. Seems like they should mention specifically if electric bikes are allowed or not.

*Vehicle Usage*

Driving a motorized vehicle licensed for highway use is allowed only on those roads constructed, maintained and open for vehicular travel and those trails posted for vehicular use. This does not apply to participants in scheduled bird dog field trials held on the Sandhills Game Land.
Operation of any motorized land vehicle, including ATVs, not licensed for highway use is prohibited, except as otherwise expressly allowed. This does not apply to those areas specifically designated in national forests for unlicensed vehicle use.
On those game lands or parts thereof specifically listed under the Disabled Access Program, persons holding a Disabled Veteran or Totally Disabled License, a Disabled Sportsman Hunt Certification, or a Disabled Access Permit may operate vehicles, including ATVs on:
any Wildlife Resources Commission-maintained road open for vehicular travel
those trails posted for vehicular travel
ungated and open-gated roads otherwise closed to vehicular traffic.

It is unlawful to block traffic or gates or otherwise prevent vehicles from using any roadway.
On roads posted as “limited access” motorized vehicles are prohibited from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. during the months of June, July and August.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)




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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Can you guys tell me if you think my state game lands prohibit E-bikes? I'm not certain this only means gas powered motors or all motors including electric. Seems like they should mention specifically if electric bikes are allowed or not.
> 
> *Vehicle Usage*
> 
> ...


I am assuming you’re in NC from your username....

I could be wrong but it seems as long as it’s pedal assist at 750watts or less you should be ok....but I could be wrong...it’s tough to interpret some of this stuff

I found these....





__





E-Bike Laws in the USA by State


Use this interactive map to see how your state recognizes eBikes and where they can be used.




ebikegeneration.com













North Carolina State Electric Bike Laws


How does North Carolina define what an electric bike is? The state of North Carolina (NC) defines an E-bikes are defined as “electric assisted bicycles,” so long as the e-bike’s motor is under 750w, has a maximum speed of 20mph, and has operable pedals. The same rules of the road apply toboth...




evelo.com













North Carolina Bike Laws | Bike Law


We are a network of independent bicycle accident lawyers across the United States and Canada.




www.bikelaw.com





Decent read ....









E-bikes in the crosshairs as a tool for exploring public land


The very thing that makes them so attractive is what has some people worried. E-bikes, or electric bicycles, sport pedals like traditional bicycles. But they also have electric motors. Land managers and lawmakers categorize them as either class 1, 2 or 3, with the difference largely dependent on...




triblive.com













It's official: All electric bicycles are now allowed in all national parks


In a move being heralded by the electric bicycle community, e-bikes are now permitted to ride in all national parks...




electrek.co


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

deer310sg said:


> View attachment 7354021
> View attachment 7354028
> View attachment 7354021
> View attachment 7354028


If you do the upgrade on the front forks to one with a suspension, you’ll be amazed at the difference in the bike. 


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

rutman said:


> If you do the upgrade on the front forks to one with a suspension, you’ll be amazed at the difference in the bike.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's on the list for sure. I know one thing, that seat upgrade was a welcome addition! Lol


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

What seat did you set-up on there.....

Try a Thudbuster G4 post....they are slick....pretty sure the Rambo takes a 30.9


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> What seat did you set-up on there.....
> 
> Try a Thudbuster G4 post....they are slick....pretty sure the Rambo takes a 30.9


Bikeroo Oversized Comfort.


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## deer310sg (Feb 20, 2006)

12-Ringer said:


> What seat did you set-up on there.....
> 
> Try a Thudbuster G4 post....they are slick....pretty sure the Rambo takes a 30.9


Got it off amazon


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

Would love to hear some more input on the M2S bikes. My budget is $2000. Sounds like pabuck loves his M2S All Terrain Ultra. That is unfortunately out of my price range, but I wanted to see if anyone has experience with the M2S All Terrain R750 HT and if anyone knows the difference between that model and the M2S All Terrain R750 HT non integrated? Extremely informative thread thus far, I spent last night reading it front to back.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

You can give them a call the guys at M2S are great!! 

If you won’t be doing a lot of hauling or climbing steep terrain the the 750HT is likely plenty. It is a hub design as opposed to mid-drive, but most mid-drives will drive you out of your $2k price range.

I believe the most significant distinction between the 750 and 750 integrated is the battery configuration...but again a quick call to them during their hours will get all your questions answered.


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

12-Ringer said:


> You can give them a call the guys at M2S are great!!
> 
> If you won’t be doing a lot of hauling or climbing steep terrain the the 750HT is likely plenty. It is a hub design as opposed to mid-drive, but most mid-drives will drive you out of your $2k price range.
> 
> I believe the most significant distinction between the 750 and 750 integrated is the battery configuration...but again a quick call to them during their hours will get all your questions answered.


I appreciate the speedy response! I just got off the phone with them and like you mentioned, the battery is the main difference from what they told me. Sounds like the new battery configuration actually has a slightly shorter battery life when at full charge compared to the old design. Didn’t ask why that was but I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on the r750 ht. Question is is do I go with the white over the cool green or the black and grey for the fact that the white is $200 cheaper lol? 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Good luck making your choice...I don’t know anyone with an M2S that doesn’t love it!!!


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Fifty/FiftyOD said:


> I appreciate the speedy response! I just got off the phone with them and like you mentioned, the battery is the main difference from what they told me. Sounds like the new battery configuration actually has a slightly shorter battery life when at full charge compared to the old design. Didn’t ask why that was but I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on the r750 ht. Question is is do I go with the white over the cool green or the black and grey for the fact that the white is $200 cheaper lol? [emoji2371]


Probably the best deal on a mid drive bike out there.





__





Rambo 750w Savage eBike | Rambo Bikes


The Rambo 750w Savage Hunting and Off-Road eBike is built to take you on any terrain! Order your 750w Savage eBike online Today with Free Shipping!



www.rambobikes.com






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## dougell (Aug 29, 2014)

Fifty/FiftyOD said:


> Would love to hear some more input on the M2S bikes. My budget is $2000. Sounds like pabuck loves his M2S All Terrain Ultra. That is unfortunately out of my price range, but I wanted to see if anyone has experience with the M2S All Terrain R750 HT and if anyone knows the difference between that model and the M2S All Terrain R750 HT non integrated? Extremely informative thread thus far, I spent last night reading it front to back.


I had a Rambo and then bought a M2S ultra.Other than being able to compare the two,I don't know squat about bikes.I will say that the ultra has a ton of power,hasn't had any malfuctions and is really comfortable to ride.I've only had it about 6 mo so the jury is still out but I have no complaints.I have a couple buddy's who own a bike shop.They've worked on many of these e-bikes and claim that the M2S bikes have better components.They have a 500w Giant class one mountain bike that they've had as a demo for the past year and ride it all the time.After a year of hard use,they had nothing but good things to say about it.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Integrated refers to the battery being built into the down tube. Most integrated batteries are not easily removed and so either have to charge it by a plug in or run a cord. 

Doesn't sound like a big deal but if you have a situation where you want to leave the bike say in the truck and bring the battery in for a charge, well you are out of luck.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

dougell said:


> I had a Rambo and then bought a M2S ultra.Other than being able to compare the two,I don't know squat about bikes.I will say that the ultra has a ton of power,hasn't had any malfuctions and is really comfortable to ride.I've only had it about 6 mo so the jury is still out but I have no complaints.I have a couple buddy's who own a bike shop.They've worked on many of these e-bikes and claim that the M2S bikes have better components.They have a 500w Giant class one mountain bike that they've had as a demo for the past year and ride it all the time.After a year of hard use,they had nothing but good things to say about it.


That Giant bike has a yamaha Pw motor in it. I had a bike last year with a yamaha motor and it was a dream to ride!


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

rutman said:


> Probably the best deal on a mid drive bike out there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are the brakes squeaky? I saw Costco sells a Rambo 750 g3 on their website but was turned off by all the bad reviews buyers were leaving on it. I love the idea that it is a mid drive tho!!


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

dougell said:


> I had a Rambo and then bought a M2S ultra.Other than being able to compare the two,I don't know squat about bikes.I will say that the ultra has a ton of power,hasn't had any malfuctions and is really comfortable to ride.I've only had it about 6 mo so the jury is still out but I have no complaints.I have a couple buddy's who own a bike shop.They've worked on many of these e-bikes and claim that the M2S bikes have better components.They have a 500w Giant class one mountain bike that they've had as a demo for the past year and ride it all the time.After a year of hard use,they had nothing but good things to say about it.


Good to know! Ya I’ve spoke with M2S a few times now and they seem to be a good company to work with. Sounds like they provide a 30day satisfaction guarantee as well as a 1yr warranty which is an added bonus too!


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

Fifty/FiftyOD said:


> Are the brakes squeaky? I saw Costco sells a Rambo 750 g3 on their website but was turned off by all the bad reviews buyers were leaving on it. I love the idea that it is a mid drive tho!!


As long as they’re burned in correctly when it’s new, they shouldn’t squeak at all. I had one exactly like this one, except mine didn’t have the 3 speed rear hub, and it never squeaked.

BUT on this one, you’d still have to buy a rear rack, saddle bags and fenders, which is probably around $300 more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

12-Ringer said:


> Good luck making your choice...I don’t know anyone with an M2S that doesn’t love it!!!


Do you know if M2S offers a military discount? Of course The one question I didn’t ask the folks over there when I was on the phone with them.


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## nockedup (Nov 5, 2007)

Is anyone producing an e bike without a rear derailleur?


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## rutman (Sep 14, 2009)

nockedup said:


> Is anyone producing an e bike without a rear derailleur?


Only one I know of is Rambo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## archery22 (Mar 1, 2003)

Just received my M2S bike last week,I got the All Terrain 750 HT and its a beast well built bike. The guys at M2S were very helpful, they have contacted me 3 time wanting to know if I had any concerns, none yet. One thing I could have changed was getting a step thru model, I have a hard time getting my 67yr old, 3 back operation leg lifted over the back of the bike with boots and a pack, I have to lay it on its side some to get on. I just ordered new grips the Ergon GP4 and a comfort seat, I do this with all my mountain bikes. Very impressed so far.


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## Fifty/FiftyOD (Jan 27, 2018)

archery22 said:


> Just received my M2S bike last week,I got the All Terrain 750 HT and its a beast well built bike. The guys at M2S were very helpful, they have contacted me 3 time wanting to know if I had any concerns, none yet. One thing I could have changed was getting a step thru model, I have a hard time getting my 67yr old, 3 back operation leg lifted over the back of the bike with boots and a pack, I have to lay it on its side some to get on. I just ordered new grips the Ergon GP4 and a comfort seat, I do this with all my mountain bikes. Very impressed so far.


That’s awesome. I just ordered mine today! How long did it take for you to get the bike?? I am definitely going to order in a new seat and are the grips not the greatest stock?


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## TX_RDXguy (Jul 11, 2016)

Three seasons and about 300 miles on the Canyon and 99% of that is on rough trails. I've put it through some hard work and it's been a great bike. The 1000w midmount get's it done.


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## basnbuks (Jul 13, 2010)

Look at Extreme Outdoor Ebikes our of PA , you will spend a little more but you get a lot more!!!


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## archery22 (Mar 1, 2003)

Fifty/FiftyOD said:


> That’s awesome. I just ordered mine today! How long did it take for you to get the bike?? I am definitely going to order in a new seat and are the grips not the greatest stock?





Fifty/FiftyOD said:


> That’s awesome. I just ordered mine today! How long did it take for you to get the bike?? I am definitely going to order in a new seat and are the grips not the greatest stock?


It only took a few days to ship to Pa.If its shipped with Old Dominion Freight they should call you and set up a time and date when your home. The grips are not bad but I like the Ergon grip, they keep your wrist straight and from going num.


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## Jhef (Jun 9, 2021)

Teemster said:


> I would build this before buying a Rambo 750. Better frame, better brakes, front shocks, wheels, drive train, battery, motor...everything. The battery that came with my 750 quit working after a months use in IL. I believe the cold weather fried it. Rambo did send me another to replace it. The replacement came straight from China, no name on the batteries, no description, no warning labels, nothin. Its built with the cheapest components available. However, i do like the geared hub.


 Was trying to message you about your build but as a new member the site isn't letting me...still going strong. Anywhere cheaper to get parts other then Luna..also curious about the bafang ultra mid drive with a 3 speed hub .


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## scottprice (Jan 24, 2010)

dougell said:


> For about $1200 you can have the Bike shop in state college do a conversion on an existing bike if you don't want to take it on yourself.


Which bike shoo is that??


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