# Ibo wanting to switch target manufacturers would you still shoot there events



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

That's not going to happen.


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## gen2teg (Jan 29, 2009)

im sorry i should have added a third option


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## Bowtech n ROSS (Aug 30, 2007)

If they switch i'll shoot asa.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

If they were to switch hopefully local clubs would switch I would still shoot them, it's the only game in town.


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## gobblemg (Jun 13, 2006)

Most of the clubs we shoot have rinehart targets now so I think it would be great.


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## stdoc102 (Aug 6, 2009)

A target is a target. I shoot for the competition not the targets. Mackenzie does make a good looking target though..


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

rock77 said:


> If they were to switch hopefully local clubs would switch I would still shoot them, it's the only game in town.


Agreed


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## gabuckslammer (Apr 9, 2010)

Here in Georgia, ASA is the popular thing and McKenzie targets are the norm. A few local clubs have Rhineharts. The target shouldnt matter if you judge the target and shoot the shot. However, I struggle judging the Rhineharts compared to the McKenzies some times due to size difference and less familiarity. I was checking into buying a number of targets back in the fall and I know McKenzie went up on cost across the board this year to ASA and the general public, so I dont see where IBO would expect to be any different.


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## SynapsesFire (Mar 25, 2008)

Crazy, mckenzie's are already extremely expensive. too bad, but seems like everything's going up these days. I would still shoot, putting on these big archery tournaments are not cheap, and it takes a lot of time for people to put on these events, can't blame them for wanting to make some money. This is not a sport to make people rich competing. pay it, deal with it, or play golf.


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## gen2teg (Jan 29, 2009)

the ibo will be using mckenzies for all of the 2012 year. thanks for the input guys


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## ArrowStar1 (Jun 10, 2008)

I already like the ASA events more than the IBO but due to where I live The IBO shoots are MUCH closer, so I shoot the IBO events. If they change to rineharts that will just give me more 40 more reasons to shoot the ASA shoots.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

If IBO switched to Rineharts the scores will drop unless they keep the shoots shorter. Rineharts have a much smaller 10 & 8. Sometimes being out of the 10 by two inches gives you a five. Rineharts are nice(I once owned 30 of them) but are not fun for me to shoot in a tournament.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Bubba Dean said:


> If IBO switched to Rineharts the scores will drop unless they keep the shoots shorter. Rineharts have a much smaller 10 & 8. Sometimes being out of the 10 by two inches gives you a five. Rineharts are nice(I once owned 30 of them) but are not fun for me to shoot in a tournament.


So what's the problem except to our egos. Everybody has to shoot the same target from the same position so nobody has any real advantage. So your score is lower. So is everybody else's.

Frankly I think the ASA and IBO, along with all the shooters that participate need to send Delta (McKenzie) a message and boycott them. Apparently some people have no real clue as to what these targets are getting to cost. We're talking maybe $30,000 for a 20 target course. Shooting fees go up, payouts get smaller. The only ones raking in more money is good old Delta.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bfisher said:


> We're talking maybe $30,000 for a 20 target course.


Really? I can order them at retail and pay overnight shipping from Lancaster for less than 30k.

Are they expensive? Yes.

Too expensive? Sure.

30 freaking grand- Nope. Don't over do it.


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## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Remember they are made from a petroleum product. You can gauge that cost when you fill up your gas tank. In the last three years gas prices have doubled. Targets have only increased about 40 to 50%.


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## Bowtech n ROSS (Aug 30, 2007)

$30,000? At an average cost of 500$ a Target i could buy 60 targets. You went a little extreme.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

gen2teg said:


> mckenzie wants to start charging them more for targets. So they want to switch to another brand to make more money.
> would you still shoot there events.Would it hurt all of the local clubs. input welcome


The IBO is a non-profit. It dosen't make money. Only about $5 from every shooter go's to the IBO. The IBO just puts there stamp on the shoot, to give it a title,like national,state or world championship. A much larger portion of the entry fee go's to the club that puts on the shoot. Now if you do a little digging you will find that some of the people that run the clubs that get to have the big shoots are also on the IBO board. But that is another thread question. If the target prices go up the cost will just be passed down to the shooters. If that cost is as bad as what someone listed above. I would say that in a few years there wont be any IBO/ASA. I guess we will all just have to go back to shooting pie plates on bales.


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## hunter terrior (May 15, 2008)

Have stock in neither. Don't care


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## miketheshooter (Dec 29, 2010)

Doesn't matter to me it will still be a blast to shoot. Hey Jake stumpy said your gonna go semi? This ttue


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## gryfox00 (Jun 11, 2007)

Don't see this happening, but it would be a great thing for our club currently. So it wont !!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I hope they stay with McKenzie.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I just ordered a 30 target course of McKenzie XT targets, at MSRP I spent less than $10,000.

I'm tired of people bashing McKenzie and Rinehart when they don't know what they are talking about. (re: ????$30,000 for a range????)

If you want some facts read my thread I just posted.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1683183&p=1063207683#post1063207683


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Like others here, I figure a target is a target and I have to make the shot and so does the next guy. I shoot any target in front of me - exception being cold weather and older McKenzie targets.

bfisher just misplaced the comma is all. More like $3000.00 for a ASA 20 target range. BUT! Those in the ASA have seen the price increase over the past few years. I think around $2000.00 when I first got involved. So 6 or 7 years. Rinehart has also increased. If I remember correctly, the 30 point Buck, 10+ years ago, cost the club $389.00 and approx $500.00. We still have our 30 pt. Buck and shot virtually every event. Show me a HD McKenzie buck 10 years old and shot like our Rinehart.

Us that watch oil prices have seen some crazy things this year. Oil went up and up and gas prices fell and are holding. Gas prices held, but other oil base products did not drop and if anything eased upward just a tad. Now, that's weird.

I really don't know the agreements between the NFAA, IBO or ASA and McKenzie. The organization buys a range, I guess, and then is sold or auctioned off at the events. I do remember when the NFAA had a bunch of targets they didn't get sold, but this was some time back - I think Sonny Glisson was still Great Lakes Councilman, so long time back. So the NFAA had to swallow the loss.

The deal between the ASA and Rinehart was said to be far different than the present deal between the ASA and McKenzie. Rinehart could not withstand the loss. 

Cost of targets/target centers. Only Rinehart has a cost per arrow for their target centers, 3 cents over a 30 target course. Initial target cost is higher than McKenzie, but offset through the replacement center and fairly long life of it. I did figures for our club and came up with something just over 2 cents per shot over a 40 target course. Why hasn't other target companies done the same, figure a cost per shot? I mean, it doesn't take some math wiz to do the numbers - time frame, number of shooters, cost of target centers. Okay, most can't do it because of the replacement center opposed to the target frontal replacement. The cost is near double, triple and complete replacement of the target - as like Rinehart has replacement centers for their **** and Delta doesn't. And then the E-Z flex foam centers haven't been on the market long enough??? Still, the main body is of the standard McKenzie foam - so body deterioration cost is still present.

Bottom line for our club; Our target fee and membership dues have remained unchanged for 12 years - still Adult fee of $10 for 40 targets / Membership dues of $25. We began with McKenzie and Deltas and slowly went with Rinehart. How much has our club saved with use of Rineharts? To answer, over 100 Rinehart targets on-hand.


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## bowpro (May 31, 2002)

Please keep in mind IBO is still in a contract with McKenzie Targets and will certainly be using McKenzie Targets.
bp


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## maineyotekiller (Oct 1, 2005)

ArrowStar1 said:


> I already like the ASA events more than the IBO but due to where I live The IBO shoots are MUCH closer, so I shoot the IBO events. If they change to rineharts that will just give me more 40 more reasons to shoot the ASA shoots.


Amen! I'm a bigger paycheck and cheaper diesel prices from quitting IBO all together and going ASA!


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> I just ordered a 30 target course of McKenzie XT targets, at MSRP I spent less than $10,000.
> 
> I'm tired of people bashing McKenzie and Rinehart when they don't know what they are talking about. (re: ????$30,000 for a range????)
> 
> ...


You must have bought pretty much all small targets then since the turkey is 300 and the coyote is around 290. You sure wouldn't be buying any of the bigger bucks or anything. Especially in the XT series and at MSRP prices.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

bfisher said:


> So what's the problem except to our egos. Everybody has to shoot the same target from the same position so nobody has any real advantage. So your score is lower. So is everybody else's.
> 
> Frankly I think the ASA and IBO, along with all the shooters that participate need to send Delta (McKenzie) a message and boycott them. Apparently some people have no real clue as to what these targets are getting to cost. We're talking maybe $30,000 for a 20 target course. Shooting fees go up, payouts get smaller. The only ones raking in more money is good old Delta.


Really screwed this one up. May I correct myself? I meant to say 100 targets as that's what we had been doing here in Central Pa. for the Spring 3D Festival at Camp Mack. That's coming up pretty soon by the way and I believe this is the 19th consecutive year. It's 5 courses of 20 targets and for fun only. Rules? Shoot what ya brung and have fun. $25 for the whole weekend.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

bfisher said:


> Really screwed this one up. May I correct myself? I meant to say 100 targets as that's what we had been doing here in Central Pa. for the Spring 3D Festival at Camp Mack. That's coming up pretty soon by the way and I believe this is the 19th consecutive year. It's 5 courses of 20 targets and for fun only. Rules? Shoot what ya brung and have fun. $25 for the whole weekend.


Man that is really cheap shooting. Wish I lived closer


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

I think people will look for any reason to blame their bad scores on something other than themselves. A target is a target. Judge the distance to it, find the rings with your bino's, and shoot it.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

No I bought the standard ASA course all xt's no turkeys.
Don't have the list in front of me to but was like 11 deer, wolfs lion leopard, walking bear, standing bears. Coyote and javelins were the smallest. No turkeys.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

XForce Girl said:


> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


Sorry not a good texter.
Meant to add...... I don't pay msrp.
I'm a dealer for delta/McKenzie. But even at the club prices you can get 30 for less than 10,000.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## casterpollox (Apr 7, 2010)

asa_low12 said:


> I think people will look for any reason to blame their bad scores on something other than themselves. A target is a target. Judge the distance to it, find the rings with your bino's, and shoot it.


:thumbs_up

Up here in Canada, Rhineharts seem to be pretty popular. I've only been shooting for 2 years but I see them all over the place. In fact, our club only buys Rhineharts now... unless we see a really cool target from another company, but then it better have a replaceable centre.

Maybe it's because I'm not shooting for a paycheque, but when I step up to the stake I'm thinking "clean shot" not "what company made this target"


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

One would think that the simple fact that this debate continuously comes up would be enough to grab Delta's attention.
But apparently it isn't.

I took delivery of 5 new McKenzie XT series targets yesterday.
Hoping that the higher price of the XT series would equate to a higher quality target than the HD's and others we got last year.
Unfortunately I was sorely disappointed.

Holes all in them from the molding process. (Some quite substantial.)
A couple of targets are almost missing one eye completely due to the holes from molding.

Paint jobs that don't match from section to section. (On the same animal)
One has 2 different color sections, and the core is a 3rd different color.
Paint coming completely off in some spots.

Very visable flashing lines that go across the center of EVERY replacable core.

We have a mule deer that has so many bad spots and screw-ups that it's being sent back.
On this particular target, even the molds weren't aligned when the head was made.
The left side of the nose is aproximatley 1" longer than the right.

We also have 5 new Rineharts on the way.
MAYBE they will look more "cartoonish".
But judging from what we saw out of the ones we got last year, I'd be willing to bet that they don't look like factory rejects.
We'll see when they arrive.

I have pictures of all these defects I'm referring to.
But I'll give Delta a chance to make things right before they are posted.
A meeting is scheduled with the McKenzie rep next week.
No doubt they don't care what I have to say ....
but at least afterward, all of you, and I, will know that someone has sent an opinion up the chain.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Can't wait for the pics. Quality is definately slipping. lain:


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

JMJ said:


> One would think that the simple fact that this debate continuously comes up would be enough to grab Delta's attention.
> But apparently it isn't.
> 
> I took delivery of 5 new McKenzie XT series targets yesterday.
> ...


WOW that's a shame, I hope they make it right for you. 

I received 2 truckloads from Delta yesterday, haven't gotten a chance to open them all up and look, but no major issues yet. Did have one come with a broken ear but I'm just gluing it back on.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> Sorry not a good texter.
> Meant to add...... I don't pay msrp.
> I'm a dealer for delta/McKenzie. But even at the club prices you can get 30 for less than 10,000.
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


Ok now that makes more sense. In your earlier post it sounded like you were paying MSRP price and there was no way to get that many for 10 grand if you bought larger targets. Also , congratulations on not getting any turkeys. God , I hate the turkey target the worst , especially the jakesukey:


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Ok now that makes more sense. In your earlier post it sounded like you were paying MSRP price and there was no way to get that many for 10 grand if you bought larger targets. Also , congratulations on not getting any turkeys. God , I hate the turkey target the worst , especially the jakesukey:


Then I wish you'd help setup your club's course more! LOL


I've shot the old McKenzies, new McKenzies and the Rineharts and although the Rineharts aren't as realistic looking as the McKenzies, I'd take the Rineharts any day. Also, I actually know shooters that won't attend a shoot that uses any of the old McKenzies (probably because after 2-3 targets we make him pull his own arrows and they aren't easy to pull even with lube).


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Supermag1 said:


> Then I wish you'd help setup your club's course more! LOL
> 
> 
> I've shot the old McKenzies, new McKenzies and the Rineharts and although the Rineharts aren't as realistic looking as the McKenzies, I'd take the Rineharts any day. Also, I actually know shooters that won't attend a shoot that uses any of the old McKenzies (probably because after 2-3 targets we make him pull his own arrows and they aren't easy to pull even with lube).


There are some things we do and don't do to make our targets last longer. It that would be subject for another thread.
I know there are others who may have better ideas also.
Would be good to get a list of guidelines going to help the clubs.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

stdoc102 said:


> A target is a target. I shoot for the competition not the targets. Mackenzie does make a good looking target though..


I second this. I just happy to go some where and shoot.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

the targets are the same for everyone whether its rinehart or McKenzie. I shoot three D because I enjoy it. Don't care which targets.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Supermag1 said:


> Then I wish you'd help setup your club's course more! LOL
> 
> 
> I've shot the old McKenzies, new McKenzies and the Rineharts and although the Rineharts aren't as realistic looking as the McKenzies, I'd take the Rineharts any day. Also, I actually know shooters that won't attend a shoot that uses any of the old McKenzies (probably because after 2-3 targets we make him pull his own arrows and they aren't easy to pull even with lube).


I am at every work party , but they always seem to slip them in there LOL.


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## DroptineArchery (Jun 1, 2011)

Just purchased 28 Mckenzie XT targets, I hope mckenzie can stay in both circuits. I have a 10 target range for members and then I will be hosting a 20 target 3D Tournament once a month and yes it is a $10,000.00 investment.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

JMJ said:


> One would think that the simple fact that this debate continuously comes up would be enough to grab Delta's attention.
> But apparently it isn't.
> 
> I took delivery of 5 new McKenzie XT series targets yesterday.
> ...


I apologize for bringing up this old post, but I figured I'd better update this.
The McKenzie rep agreed with me on the condition of the aforementioned mule deer target.
He took it with him when he left the store and a replacement is on the way.

Yesterday, we took delivery of 5 new Rinehart targets.
Pros ....
*The quality and finish of these targets is WAY BEYOND that of any Deltas I've bought.
Delta isn't really even in the same league.
Cons .... Well there really aren't any as of yet. But here are some observations ....
*The standing bear & alligator don't come apart. Makes them a bit tougher to handle during range setup/teardown.
*The standing bear is quite a bit shorter in height than the McKenzie.
*The color of the fighting buck is a bit light. I've never seen a "cream" colored deer.
*We got a turkey last year and the paint job is very detailed .... but I've never seen a live, brown turkey either.

If you've ever been involved in range setup/teardown, you'll know how aggravating it is to get horns/antlers on McKenzie targets. (And how fragile some of them are)
The Rineharts have horns/antlers integrated into a removable "skullcap". And they are made from, what appears to be, the same material as the target. (Flexible)
I don't know how well these will hold up in the long run. But it'll sure be a hell of a lot easier to get them installed properly.

Bottom line ....
If our patrons like the Rineharts as well as I do ...
We will purchase no more Delta targets in the future.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

(keep in mind that mckenzie, delta, and hoyt are owned by easton.)
target foam might be made from oil, but it ain't made from gasoline. lots of plastic stuff is made from an oil base, including those free bags you get at the grocery store. notice the grocer hasn't started charging for those baggies. hmmm...how about those water bottles at 7/11? point made? makes you wonder why the big price jump.


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## bohunter52 (Aug 4, 2004)

Until the IBO and ASA use their influence to create a competitive market between target manufacturers local clubs will continue to struggle with cost increases of 25% for replacements. Most of the clubs in this area are not trying to turn a profit and in fact have tax exempt status. Those who are forced to pay for land use, insurance, awards, fuel, and in some cases a storage fee are going away. These large organizations need to keep in mind where most of their members got their start and stand up for these local clubs.


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## Tmaziarz (Mar 16, 2008)

No, would not shoot IBO if they do that.

Only wa for that to happen is if both org switch at the same time at make it standard for targets.

Both APA and IBO


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## Tmaziarz (Mar 16, 2008)

Both ASA and IBO


Sorry miss spoke up above


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## iawalleyeguy (Aug 10, 2009)

I would shoot more if the switched to Rinehart!Mckenzie targets are second rate compared to a Rinehart!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

How's about they mix them up and NOBODY but the host club knows WHICH targets will be used, what order, and all the tournaments are open to whatever gets set up?

This way, NOBODY has the answers to the test...shooting the SAME 20 animals (in different orders and distances) all year long...but rather you have what? 60 Mackenzies, 60 Rinharts...to choose from and they can be mixed and matched at any tournament at any time.

That sure would level that playing field...who could afford to buy and try to memorize all 120 potential animals that could be used?

Just sayin'...and YES, I'm an ASA member.

field14 (Tom D.)


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