# Rest and nock adjustments



## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

Generally you want the arrow coming off the string at 90 degrees and running through the Berger hole, the hole you can see on the arrow side of the riser. Some prefer slightly to the top of the hole. If it's not doing that, start by getting it there. This may or may not involve changing the rest. If you have to change the rest to get it there, do so. I find that once my arrow is set there, it's best to adjust the knock point. But that's me. 

If the arrow is lined up right, make sure you are not getting vane contact on the rest. Depending on what type of rest you are using.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Honestly, it's highly doubtful you can shoot well enough right now to do any fine tuning. I'd eyeball my center shot and set the arrow so it goes right through the middle of the berger hole and is nock high by about 1/8" on the string. That setup will shoot accurately enough to shoot a perfect NFAA score if the archer is capable. I shot a personal best last month with a bow that had nothing done to it other than that. Too many people around here spend WAY too much time chasing tuning and WAY too little time developing good shooting form.


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

Alright, I think I get it. I'll give it a try right after work and update. 

Thanks!


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

So you mean to move my entire rest into line, centered with the berger hole and then readjust my nock and set my rest into the middle setting? If I'm still hitting nock low after that point then I adjust my rest or my nock?


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## baratta930 (Nov 18, 2012)

I set the rest to put the arrow center slightly above the middle of my berger hole (that's what's worked best for me in the past with my QAD HDX, center of berger was fine when I wasn't using a drop away rest). I then use string/arrow levels to setup my nock point so that my arrow runs slightly above 90 degrees to the string.

For either paper tuning or bareshaft tuning I move the nock up down to adjust the tear/misses. I only move my rest during broadhead tuning (and then only in very, very, very SMALL amounts).

For left/right tears/misses I set my rest at centershot (13/16 on my Hoyt) and yoke tune to get out left/right tears or left/right BS misses. Again I only move the rest very small amounts during broadhead tuning.

I will repeat what AKDoug said, when you're starting out you're not consistent enough to do fine tuning because your form isn't consistent enough. Get it close enough and just shoot, shoot, shoot and shoot some more. I would chase my tail doing bareshaft tuning when I was first starting out but the reality was my form wasn't consistent enough so I was really just chasing myself. I'm much more consistent now and can fine tune my setup much quicker and easier because of this ...

Blind bale shooting and Nuts & Bolts' 30 arrows 1 hole exercise helped a lot ...

Hope this helps ...

Berardino


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

SilentJ said:


> So you mean to move my entire rest into line, centered with the berger hole and then readjust my nock and set my rest into the middle setting? If I'm still hitting nock low after that point then I adjust my rest or my nock?


I'm not positive but I don't think you can adjust the brushes on that hostage rest, if it has the factory rest. The NAP you can tweak a bit. Make sure the rest is set so the arrow goes through the middle of the hole, or slightly high. Not going to argue it, just pick one and try. Once the rest is set, you can make small adjustments to see if it helps. If it does, great. If it does not, then move to the knock. 

Just for some clarification, I don't go as crazy as some with tuning. But I figure in a few days if all goes well, maybe a week if it does not. That's tinkering with it a bit every day. I'm not out spending hours on it at a time usually. 

And as stated above, if you find all that stuff is already done. Then start looking at your grip. You could be torquing the bow with a poor grip. I saw an add on FB yesterday for bow tuning tips for better accuracy. Of the 6 pics of guys shooting a bow, all 6 had poor grips. SMH.


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

Ya I've watched a lot about proper grip, with the palm facing up and index finger up allowing the bow to rest in the V with the weight of the string pull holing it into place. At first I also found that I was dropping the bow to fast to see where I hit but now I'm keeping my form a second after until the arrow is clear of the bow. I've noticed a big improvement with just this little fix. I've already picked an anchor point under my chin thats comfortable and always go to it. Mostly I just want to tune as well as possible so I can actually tell if it my practice and changes in stance are making a difference and being fairly confident that it's not the bow messing me up.

I'm gonna give what you guys said a look when I get home and if anything changes I'll be sure to ask again haha.

Thanks again


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

So I'm terrible confused at this point. The paper tune still tells me to raise the nock, the nock is already very clearly too high. It makes logical sense to me that the nock needs to go down to bring things into a line. I'm confused..

I've attached a picture of my paper and of the bow with an arrow so you can see how high my nock is already. 


Now that I look at the picture it looks like the rest may be on a bit of an awkward forward angle? Would be causing a nock low tear in the paper?


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

Forget the paper for now and here is why. I think your rig is so out of whack the arrow is porpoising, where the fletching end is moving up and down. I bet if you step back 5 feet you might get a high tear. The tear is just the arrows position at that point in space. But your arrow is so out of whack on the bow it's not really telling you anything. Believe me, you can get a bow out of whack where paper is useless and you have to step back and get everything back in spec, BTDT. Get the arrow running through the berger hole. Get that rest squared up vertically, and so the arrow is resting well on the brushes. And get your knock point in whatever position it takes to get the arrow splitting the berger hole. Then, and only then, go back to paper. You want to start out with a spec bow when you are shooting paper or bare shaft. Then make MINOR tweaks to get it shooting better. If you are making major tweaks you probably started out without being in spec. 

Good news is your center shot seems to be OK. lol


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## R8R (May 15, 2016)

Suggestions, and keep in mind I am a beginner compound shooter too..

1) Drop some weight. No need to crank up to 70# to start. Try 55# to 60# till your form is there. (or even lower... its all about comfort when working on form) Yeah you can hold 70# at the given let off, but yanking it back arrow after arrow while practicing wears you down and form will suffer.

2) After adjusting limbs, always measure tiller before doing anything else. Make sure its at 1/8" or less difference top to bottom. If your tiller is wack, your arrow flight will be wack.

3) Set your rest with plenty of vane clearance above the riser shelf, so that the nock and rest have the arrow parallel to the guide lines on the riser, at the berger hole or slightly above, as clearance dictates. Start at 90 degrees and tune from there. You want the vanes to pass clean through with minimal contact to the rest and none on the riser.

4) Make sure your arrow spine matches your draw weight and draw length, whatever that ends up being.

5) Paper tune first, then French tune. Paper tune is ball park tuning for nock height and center shot. French tune is fine tuning till you get tight groups.


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

chiefjason said:


> Forget the paper for now and here is why. I think your rig is so out of whack the arrow is porpoising, where the fletching end is moving up and down. I bet if you step back 5 feet you might get a high tear. The tear is just the arrows position at that point in space. But your arrow is so out of whack on the bow it's not really telling you anything. Believe me, you can get a bow out of whack where paper is useless and you have to step back and get everything back in spec, BTDT. Get the arrow running through the berger hole. Get that rest squared up vertically, and so the arrow is resting well on the brushes. And get your knock point in whatever position it takes to get the arrow splitting the berger hole. Then, and only then, go back to paper. You want to start out with a spec bow when you are shooting paper or bare shaft. Then make MINOR tweaks to get it shooting better. If you are making major tweaks you probably started out without being in spec.
> 
> Good news is your center shot seems to be OK. lol



What do you mean by so out of wack though? Like just my rest and nock? Because the timing is dead on, the synch is as perfect as it will go and the tiller is almost exactly the same, within 1/8 and my cam lean is fine also. Like I literally only get nock low hits on paper at 5 feet, 8 feet and a couple feet further back from that.


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## R8R (May 15, 2016)

Only other thing I can think of is your nock is SO high that the back end of the arrow is tapping the underside of the sight housing on the way out and bouncing super low by the time it hits the paper...


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

Ya I thought about this also. I'm going to try and reset everything tonight and adjust level or 1/8 up from the rest and then adjust from that. It's honestly the only thing I can think of at this point.


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

SilentJ said:


> What do you mean by so out of wack though? Like just my rest and nock? Because the timing is dead on, the synch is as perfect as it will go and the tiller is almost exactly the same, within 1/8 and my cam lean is fine also. Like I literally only get nock low hits on paper at 5 feet, 8 feet and a couple feet further back from that.


Mostly the rest/knock relationship. Until that is at least close, paper is pretty useless. 

Keep in mind that paper is a snap shot of what the arrow is doing at a set distance, not the whole story. I've started bare shaft tuning because you get an idea of what the arrow is actually doing in flight and exactly where it is hitting in relation to point of aim and fletched arrows. I've had decent fletched arrow flight after paper tuning that got much better after BS tuning. I was not having to tune as exactly because the fletching were doing their job and correcting the arrow. Take the fletchings off and you get a truer idea of what the bow is making the arrow do. Bringing those things together maximizes the power stroke in the bow and you get better overall performance. 

That said, get this under control first. Then start looking into BS if it interests you. You'll probably drive yourself out of archery if you take up BS in the middle of this. No need to do that. 

Also, since I don't see it upstream what spine are you shooting on those arrows?


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

Lets try this. I just got a new bow for my daughter, changed draw mods and re tied d loop. 


First shots, squaring the arrow on the Berger hole. 





















Next, set center shot. You look good but since I was doing it. 











Checking for level arrow. 











Closer shot. 












5 yard and 10 yard bare shaft. Keep in mind I'm a 30" draw guy shooting a 24" draw youth bow. 










10 yards. Got some work to do. 












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mxtuner1 (Mar 16, 2011)

I did not read all the responses but from your paper picture your nock needs raised if the shot was 3-6 ft from paper.....


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

PSE sniper 2 300.. .340 spine. With a 100grain field point


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

It's weird because the other night I put string from the middle of both limbs all the way through and the sight, rest and arrow were all out of wack but I wasn't getting any of that from the paper tuning. So I squared everything off as best I could and took it out to give it a try and everything was working much smoother. However I still haven't changed the nock because I'm waiting for my nocking string to show up


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SilentJ said:


> Hey guys, brand new to the forum and also 4 days into the first compound bow I've ever owned. It's an infinite edge pro, I have it on 70# (69 according to the manual but no scale) with a 28" draw.
> 
> I've been doing a ton of research and reading in this site and I've already dealt with my cam lean, timing and cam synch and did a French tune today and started in the paper tune. I shot about 5 arrows through the paper from about 8 feet or so and every single one of them hit nock low only, by a decent 2" to 2.5" tear. So I go to adjust my rest down but it's already at the lowest setting so now I have to actually move my nock up.
> 
> ...


Read through entire thread. I didn't see timing re-addressed. Half-azzzed decent spine arrow, arrow 90 degrees to string and rest set so arrow intersects the berger hole, no vane contact, then the first thing to check is the timing. If properly timed today's bows have maybe 0", but more of 1/16" to no more than 1/8" high nock setting. Rare today is a modern bow having a 1/4" high or more string nock setting...


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

Timing is totally fine, the string intersect the cams at exactly the same place at rest, right in between the manufacturers timing marks. What spine would you suggest using? The .340 spine isn't enough for this, How does spine work, it's based on draw weight and length? I really have no idea about spine and that sort of thing, it's what the guy at the shop told me would be good.

There is no vane contact with my rest either. And as I've said I can't change my nock right now because I'm waiting to receive my D loop nylon to make a new one after I remove this one. So for now I'm patiently waiting, reading what you guys are telling me and I will be doing it all once I receive the nock string probably by Monday 

Thanks again.


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

.340 should be fine for you. Take a look at the spine chart, and check the other info in the tabs up top. The arrow calculator is great for figuring out arrow weights before you buy and FOC. 

https://www.goldtip.com/arrowcontent.aspx?page=chart


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SilentJ said:


> Timing is totally fine, the string intersect the cams at exactly the same place at rest, right in between the manufacturers timing marks. What spine would you suggest using? The .340 spine isn't enough for this, How does spine work, it's based on draw weight and length? I really have no idea about spine and that sort of thing, it's what the guy at the shop told me would be good.
> 
> There is no vane contact with my rest either. And as I've said I can't change my nock right now because I'm waiting to receive my D loop nylon to make a new one after I remove this one. So for now I'm patiently waiting, reading what you guys are telling me and I will be doing it all once I receive the nock string probably by Monday
> 
> Thanks again.


Timing marks are not timing marks. They are reference points. Look it up. Not usual is to have one cable to one side of the reference point for it's cam and the other cable to the other side of the reference point for it's cam. 
If accepted as valid proof, See Javi's Draw Stop Timing. Timed as with Javi's method many Hoyts have their cables to opposite side of the reference holes and on newer models the cables were to opposite sides between the reference marks.

Two companies come to mind for that being different, Martin with it's Cat Cam (newer Nitro or Hybrix) and Ben Pearson Archery's Legend, LS3, LS3 and LMS cams. Martin detailed how the cables were to lay flat in the module for them (top and bottom) and even instructed of correcting if off. Cables laying flat in their draw modules is much like a Hoyt draw stop times. Note; These Martin cams were tied together as in locked together. Pearson has their timing peg right out in the open which touches the cables (see red mark). You can actually time these cams with a feeler gage. Even so, these cams are not tied together and cam corrections may be needed and where the second draw stop is used.


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

But they are at the same starting position, the cable is exactly the same place on both cams, and they synch together and touch the draw stop at the exact same time. 

Sorry if I don't understand but I don't know what else there it to timing and synch if not for the criteria I said

And what spine did you recommend given that the spine charts tell me mine are good and you said half assed?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If all is good as you say, timing is the one thing that can give the effect you have on paper. Just a hair off can rip paper.

Nothing wrong with your arrows. What I meant was any decent half azzed arrow for spine will work. For years I've shot .370 spine arrows out of my 67 pound hunting bow. For years I shot CX200 (.458 spine) out of my 62 pound 3D bow. To prove a point I used a .400 spine arrow shot out of 55 pound bow. I started with a 80 gr glue-in point and worked my way up to a 192 grs point. The arrow proved accurate for the distances I used, 20, 25 and 30 yards. Another test, a 62 pound bow and a .500 spine arrow. Accuracy was great, but the arrow couldn't take the punishment under 25 yards. It'd break off in the target. In other words, people get bent out of shape over spine over no good reason.

Contact nuts&bolts here on AT. Long winded, but he knows what's going on....


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## josh1974 (May 25, 2014)

SilentJ said:


> Timing is totally fine, the string intersect the cams at exactly the same place at rest, right in between the manufacturers timing marks. What spine would you suggest using? The .340 spine isn't enough for this, How does spine work, it's based on draw weight and length? I really have no idea about spine and that sort of thing, it's what the guy at the shop told me would be good.
> 
> There is no vane contact with my rest either. And as I've said I can't change my nock right now because I'm waiting to receive my D loop nylon to make a new one after I remove this one. So for now I'm patiently waiting, reading what you guys are telling me and I will be doing it all once I receive the nock string probably by Monday
> 
> Thanks again.


For the bow to be properly timed, it should be timed at full draw. Those timing marks mean nothing. You will need to put it on a drawboard to see if its timed correctly. You will go by how the actual stops hit the cables, not timing marks.


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## josh1974 (May 25, 2014)

Whoops....Sorry Sonny! Didn't see your posts above.


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## SilentJ (Sep 7, 2016)

josh1974 said:


> SilentJ said:
> 
> 
> > Timing is totally fine, the string intersect the cams at exactly the same place at rest, right in between the manufacturers timing marks. What spine would you suggest using? The .340 spine isn't enough for this, How does spine work, it's based on draw weight and length? I really have no idea about spine and that sort of thing, it's what the guy at the shop told me would be good.
> ...




I understand that it should hit the draw stops at the same time, and it does. But it also needs to be at the same starting position to begin with, how else would synch work if it wasnt timed at rest and at full draw? I'm confused by what I'm being told, some of it seems to go against what I've read in here.

The timing at rest absolutely has to matter, and so does the timing at draw stops. If not it will go through its draw at different times from top to bottom. The timing marks are there to signify the start of the cams rotation, it needs a definite start point (end point when you shoot)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SilentJ said:


> I understand that it should hit the draw stops at the same time, and it does. But it also needs to be at the same starting position to begin with, how else would synch work if it wasnt timed at rest and at full draw? I'm confused by what I'm being told, some of it seems to go against what I've read in here.
> 
> The timing at rest absolutely has to matter, and so does the timing at draw stops. If not it will go through its draw at different times from top to bottom. The timing marks are there to signify the start of the cams rotation, it needs a definite start point (end point when you shoot)


I can see where your confusion comes from. Sync is the cams moving together as one. Timing is the cams both hitting the cables at the same time. Bow at rest, the cables lay somewhere between the reference points, not exactly between. Hoyt goes so far to say, right from their manual; "In fact, the optimum position may be at either extreme side of the timing marks"

Extremes of cams. Extremely over rotated cams to prove a point - blue bow by nuts&bolts. My cams modified to give move valley and 1/4" more draw length instead of 1/2" increment.


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## SMiller89 (Apr 21, 2016)

Lots of good information here


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