# Shot execution, need advise please



## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

I will start off with a bit of a background first... I started shooting a bow about 3 years ago. This is my second year competing in archery and my first year of serious competition. Last year I competed in two tournaments with my hunting bow, but because of my Black Gold Ascent sight, I was placed in Male Adult Freestyle class. I was pretty much just competing with myself and a couple buddies at that time, but did pretty decent. An elderly gentlemen who was no stranger to archery was shooting in our group at the first tournament. He approached me about halfway through and pulled me aside to tell me I needed a coach. I believe he sensed a look of disdain from me, but then he explained that he thought I was pretty good and could use guidance to be competitive. Fast forward to this year... I shot the state indoor in BHFS with GT pierce skinny arrows and placed 4th. I shot the R-100 in Fresno and placed 3rd on both of the ranges in hunter class. I shot one of our local shoots which was a 42 target marked yardage, same format as Redding. I placed 3rd in BHFS class. All of this was done with a wrist strap caliper index finger trigger release and one of my two Elite Energy 35's. This boosted my confidence and gave me the motivation to jump in with the big boys.

My local pro shop owner and a couple of my buddies have been trying to convince me to get a freestyle rig put together, but I shied away due to the investment. About two months ago I picked up a very lightly used Elite Victory 39, a used Axcel Achieve sight with an X-31 scope, an AAE freakshow rest, and a set of "other bars". When I bought the bow it came with a dozen A/C/G 430's. I bareshaft tuned it to 60 yards and found my marks, been practicing with it pretty hard for the past month. I shot my first tournament with it this weekend, which was a 60 target course we shot over 2 days, again same format as Redding. The first half of day one my 20 target average was 432 out of 440, second half average was 431. My realistic personal goal for this tournament was 1290 out of 1320 possible, or a 430 average per 20 targets. My unrealistic goal was a 1300. When I realized what I was averaging and saw that 1300 was in reach, I decided to step up my game for day 2. At the end of day one I made some changes to my setup based on recommendations of our top two local shooters. I shot a 437 day two which put me right at 1300!! I was so stoked to meet that goal, but it showed me I have some more potential and need to set my personal goals higher. As far as overall placing, the best I could tell from the dry erase score board was I had tied one of our top shooters for 4th place. 

The changes I had made to my bow was in the bars. I had a set of "other bars" on day one. My bow held great with them, but there was noticeable excessive vibe on the shot. I knew this and really didn't mind due to the pin being glued to the spot, but my ignorance was revealed... After recalling all of my "21's" for the day, I can only think of two targets where my first arrow was a "10"; they were almost always on the second arrow. After day one, I switched to a set of Carbon Craft stabs, a 30" and a 15". The vibe was pretty much gone from my bow and I shot a much better score with them. I know every miss was due to my release execution, I would stop aiming on those shots to get my release to fire which would turn into a punch with a flinch combo putting it into the 10 ring. I have hired a coach but have only had one session so far with him, we will pick up again after Redding. The coach is VERY knowledgeable and has a tournament resume to back it up. My goal for the coach is to help me through the mental aspect of the shot and mindset going in to it. 

On to my release hand... I am shooting a Stan 4 finger thumb. My routine with it at the moment is to come to anchor, place my thumb on the barrel at the first joint, put tension into my back which settles my pin, then start applying steady pressure to the thumb to break the shot. The weakness in my routine would be the steady pressure to break the shot thing... The required movement seems to take some of my concentration away from aiming to have a clean break; fine motor skill vs. gross motor skill. When I had more feedback from my shot with the "other bars", I would somehow tend to punch my trigger and throw in some sort of flinch (again, usually my second arrow). I am learning to let the bow down when something isn't right but have not mastered this yet. Throw in the pressure of a tournament setting and that adds to the break down in concentration. What I am looking for is a cleaner technique for getting my thumb to fire. I am setting my goal for Redding at 1522 overall, or a 435 per 20 target average. I have the next three evenings to practice and plan to ONLY blank bail train. My bow is tuned and my marks are on, I just need to work on relaxing my shot/firing sequence. I am open to any and all tips and am appreciative of them in advance! I'm specifically looking for some things to try out during my blank bail exercises this week, but am open to anything really. 

I have a hinge but am not to the point yet where I fully want to let control of my shot go. Long term, maybe.... But not at the moment. 

Just a side note, my wife and I shot the team money shoot together this weekend. We made it to the shoot off for 3rd place but lost to some great guys. We were told that she was the second woman to ever make it to the shoot off at this event, and the other woman's partner was Dave Cousins! My wife ended up 3rd in female freestyle 8 down from first, but she had a ton of issues with her marks on the first half of day 1. If there are any lady archers out there, watch out, because she will be hot on your tails!!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

You honestly sound like a good candidate to learn to just pull through a release instead of manipulating it. You seem to need to be more of an aimer where you study the target and just float on target and need the shot to go off. So a pull through shot would only require you to pull straight back and not have to worry about manipulation of any sort. 

If you're working with a coach. Work with the coach on this matter though. You sound like you have confidence in the individual you chose and I would say utilize that. That person is there with you, watching you shoot, seeing your form, bow fit, and how you're doing mentally shot after shot. 

There's a lot of information available on shot execution on my blog, my YouTube channel, Padgett has information, Jesse Broadwater has information in a video he did for Bow Junky recently, GRIV has info on his YouTube channel, and the list goes on. You can go down a rabbit hole of finding so many different methods that it has the potential to make things worse. 

I'm a firm believer that there is one or maybe a couple methods a person can use a release with that works best for that one person. Having a coach watch you and talk with you though, they can help you find the best method for you.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

IMO, 3 days of blank bale will not help you much. To effectively use BB, you need time to ingrain whatever you want to accomplish and then to build on the new habit, you need to use a bridge to full distance. A minimum of 30 days is required for this, and likely a lot more. If you do shoot the bale, know what you want to accomplish. On every arrow, focus on only one part of your shot and ask yourself, "How did I set it and what did I get for it?".

You seem to be doing very well, especially with no more experience than you have. The guy who recommended coaching gave you great advice. Every successful pro that I've ever talked to, has or had a coach to help them, especially in the beginning. Many of them only turned to a coach when their shot went bad on them after some initial success. 

You might also look into the mental game of archery. Lanny Basham has a pretty good book on the subject. At the top levels, everybody can shoot. The difference between winning and losing is what goes on in your head. Learn to prepare for a shoot and to keep your nerves under control enough to shoot "your shot". 

Good luck,
Allen


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

RCR, thanks for the reply. I'm going to PM you with more info.


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Allen, thanks for the sound advice and encouragement. One of the gentlemen in my group this weeken actually recommended Lanny Basham as well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I enjoyed everything about this thread and the comments that were given by everyone but the one thing that popped out like a fire breathing dragon was when you said:

I have a hinge but am not to the point yet where I fully want to let control of my shot go. Long term, maybe.... But not at the moment.

That single sentence told me volumes of where you are at right now, you are wanting to become competitive with top shooters right now. Not tomorrow or two months or half a year down the road, you want it right now. To me you have got to let go of competitive wants and desires and put in the time and effort doing the proper training and earn the right to be a strong shooter who is smoothly delivering arrows to the target that have a good chance of hitting. 

Good luck and I hope you make some good decisions, it sucks to have to wait. I was my strongest two seasons ago when I won out of open a and then I had a stroke and then my wife stopped getting pay checks and then I snapped a bicep tendon and had to have surgery. SO FREAKING WHAT, LIFE HAPPENS. I simply did the training and let go of some of my desires to win for a while and am finally getting to the point where I am almost back to normal. I didn't want to have to start over and wait for money and my body to heal, I wanted it right freaking now to get better and be a strong semi pro shooter. As it turns out I have totally enjoyed the months of training and getting back up and running and starting over at a lower level makes a guy really enjoy it when becoming strong is on the horizon.

So, take a step back and push the reset button and get on the right paths. Many of us have it lined out for you in a way that can help and you can pick the guy that you enjoy working with.


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Padgett, that sentence was kind of directed toward you! I have lurked here long enough to know you would be along and I truly value your input! I signed up for your website and have even printed some articles out. You are correct when you said "smoothly delivering arrows to the target", that captions it all right there. My hing is in my quiver and I did use it on two targets Saturday. It helps me slow down when I get punchy with my thumb. I know for sure that this is a long term venture, and thank you for pointing out my rush. I just started keeping note cards with my shot sequence as well as other tips in my quiver. When I miss the spot or feel hinked up after a good shot, I'll pull those out and take a moment to reflect on them. I found this helps to get me grounded again. More later....


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Forgot to state; my thumb release has a trainer lock. I think I'll use that in lieu of blank bailing so there is no feedback from the shot. 

Back to Padgett; when I said I knew you would be along, I forgot to add that I assumed you would be recommending a hinge release. I'm not against the idea, but I would prefer to start really learning it after this next shoot rather than during it. I also have a better idea now what I would prefer in a hinge, so I will get one that suits me better than what I have now.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like hinges and am a hinge shooter but almost all my buddies are thumb trigger shooters and to me they are a awesome choice and equally good choice, so I don't think that choosing a hinge is a required thing at all. I think that you can totally commit to either one of them or you can learn to shoot both of them, If you choose to learn both I would commit to one and master it and then learn the other one. It is so hard to not compare the accuracy when you are shooting both of them and allow that to make decisions. Both hinges and thumb triggers are winning championships and setting records so they both can and will get the job done once you become proficient at them. I think that so many times people right from the beginning when they are not proficient at either one of them have a little better feel or accuracy or success with one and that is how they make that commitment. Just make it and get started is the key.

If you make the decision to stay with the thumb trigger if there is one thing that I would stress more than anything else is that right now before you go on to take a good evening and think about the URGE TO GET RID OF THE ARROW. If there is any chance for you to really become a thumb trigger guy who is really solid getting rid of that OPTION is beyond important. Just let down, it is so easy and what it does once you make the commitment to never justify allowing yourself to just punch and get rid of the arrow you will notice how much that decision to allow the urge was bleeding over into your shooting all the way back into the early stages of the shot execution. Some guys never even ponder this area of shooting a thumb trigger and the bleeding takes over. 

Think about it, you come to full draw and are settling in wanting to make a good shot and you want to do it smoothly but your thumb is ready to dump the trigger at a moments notice. You start aiming and and the pin is sitting so freaking good but you execution isn't happening and you are starting to wonder if it is going to fire and you thumb is ready to punch but you decide to give the normal shot execution a little more time but now you are way deep into the shot window and starting to loose the hole and then BANG the arrow is on its way because you punched the crap out of it. 

Think about it, You come to full draw and are settling in wanting to make a good shot and you want to do it smoothly but you know if the shot hasn't fired by the end of the good shot window you are going to let down. You start aiming and the pin is sitting so freaking good but your execution isn't happening and you are aware that the window is about gone so you take the thumb off and you let down. Take a few good breaths and then repeat and the shot fires within the window perfectly with the smooth feeling you have been training to feel all week long.

Once you get rid of the option to allow the urge to punch to be in your shooting you can walk around a course and send 40 shots to the target without a flinch or jerk or regret. It is not a guarantee that every arrow is a perfect 12 ring, it is a guarantee that you are going to send smooth shots to the target with a good chance to be a 12 ring solid shot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This weekend I saw this over and over with my shooting, I ended up hitting 12 twelves for the weekend out of 40 targets and I am a unknown guy so I have to get lucky and really nail the distance to get a 12. Well I would say that I probably nailed 20 of the targets dead on and had that many actual chances to hit a 12 so I came in just above 50 percent. Am I disappointed, not really. I know that I really can't see the 12 ring beyond 35 yards most of the time and am just aiming at foam and by the time the targets get to 42 and beyond I really can't float on a 12 ring perfectly so execution of smooth shots is where my focus lies. I got in the van to go home knowing that I aimed directly at every 12 on the course and I shot a smooth shot which is always my goal. I don't have a trigger to worry about punching and I do like that about hinges but hinges have their issues also and in years past I would have left the course with shots tied to some regret. That is when I would have to go home and do some soul searching for what those issues were and then work on eliminating them.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

You stated that you hired a well-qualified coach to help you with these goals you have set for yourself and to pattern some new ones. My suggestion to you is that you wait the couple of weeks until Redding is over and things start to get back to normal for people and instead of making a post like this online, explain these things to the person you are placing your trust into.

The coach/student relationship is one of great respect and immense trust--each to the other; and it is best to start working on building that level of trust and respect right from the outset. God luck with your archery and enjoy your growth in the sport!


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

montigre said:


> You stated that you hired a well-qualified coach to help you with these goals you have set for yourself and to pattern some new ones. My suggestion to you is that you wait the couple of weeks until Redding is over and things start to get back to normal for people and instead of making a post like this online, explain these things to the person you are placing your trust into.
> 
> The coach/student relationship is one of great respect and immense trust--each to the other; and it is best to start working on building that level of trust and respect right from the outset. God luck with your archery and enjoy your growth in the sport!


I sent you a PM with more info, but in short I like to get different perspectives on things (techniques, styles, equipment, whatever) to see what would suit me best. I can then take those things back to my coach and he can evaluate what I'm doing to guide me further. This will save time for the good stuff during the coaching sessions. Look at how each of the top shooters all have a different style which suits them. Reo could post a "how's my form" thread with a censured face and people tear him up. Tim Gillingham would be told he needs to dump the index release, etc... Most tips received here might not work, but the times I get good tips it will be worth the effort. That was the reasoning behind this post, ultimately it will be between my coach and I whether those tips are adapted into my routine or not.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I had a guy that shoots in my group ask me a couple months ago if he could come down and have me do a coaching session with him. I have shot with him for about 3 years about 5 tournaments per season so I had a good idea where my focus had to be with my coaching session. I had a good week to think about things and then I asked him to read everything in my articles in a particular order up front before we did the coaching session. That way he had seen everything and once I started asking him to do things in the reading they could fall into place. 

My job as a coach was to do things in the correct order, first of all I told him everything we were going to accomplish in the shooting session and what goals we were going to try and meet. Then we set out and tackled things in the order that I felt was the correct order to keep everything going in a positive direction. Some things were introduce and apply in a matter of a couple minutes and a couple things took 30 minutes of me finding a way to break through his old bad habits. In the end he came out looking like a new shooter and beyond happy along with me a very happy coach.

That is the problem with online coaching, we aren't standing there to make sure things are done in a correct order and even done correctly the way we wrote it out. I know when I help a person with shooting form it usually takes two weeks of pm's and 40 of them along with pictures before we can really make any difference. If I am standing there we can tackle it in a matter of a session and usually it can be only a portion of the session and we can move on to execution and mental approach stuff. 

So, I would use everything you read of my stuff as a way to open doors of your knowledge base and as your coach back home hopefully puts things together you can progress in really good directions. I would make sure that you do emails up front if you have questions or need some explanations on methods etc instead of showing up to do one of his coaching lessons and then asking him a bunch of stuff. I would not like that at all, if I already have a good idea of the directions that you need to go and we show up and I have to listen to a bunch of questions and have to come up with responses just before I try and coach you it is going to do nothing but hurt the session. It causes the coach to want to stray from his original plan and it usually pairs up with a student that isn't mentally ready to follow directions. 

So be a student of the game and learn how to sift through the good and bad stuff, let your coach do his job and you will be better off.


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Padgett said:


> So, I would use everything you read of my stuff as a way to open doors of your knowledge base and as your coach back home hopefully puts things together you can progress in really good directions. I would make sure that you do emails up front if you have questions or need some explanations on methods etc instead of showing up to do one of his coaching lessons and then asking him a bunch of stuff. I would not like that at all, if I already have a good idea of the directions that you need to go and we show up and I have to listen to a bunch of questions and have to come up with responses just before I try and coach you it is going to do nothing but hurt the session. It causes the coach to want to stray from his original plan and it usually pairs up with a student that isn't mentally ready to follow directions.


Padgett,
I've been messaging my coach about the new developments with the hinge, he is on board with it and thinks it might be a good idea. He's also having me work on focus drills.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Awesome, that should allow his next session with you be a very good one where he can have a sweet plan for you guys to follow.


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

I just wanted to give an update on where my shooting has been going.... I finished the outdoor season off decent enough, even had some more podium finishes. My issues were not fixed and I was fighting through it all. My coach was pretty tied up during this time with a major event of his own, so I didn't want to distract him from that. I put the target bow down for the archery hunting season and eventually the rifle deer season. I picked up the target bow last month and went into it again. I started with the hinge, thinking I would pick up where I left off... My indoor scores were initially in the low 290's and I felt I couldn't get relaxed; my arrows were falling off my blade rest and I was having early releases. I then started rotating between a thumb release and the hinge. I noticed a lot of the problem was that I was not holding well at all with the hinge compared to the button. The problem with the button was that I was holding so well that I started getting panicky with it. 

The last couple weeks though has been a big "ah-ha" moment for me!! I picked up my coaching sessions again, in which we worked on setting up my bars for perfection and a small tweak on my grip. I also started reading "With winning in mind". Last week I trained hard for four straight days. In this week, I was begining to let go of everything and FINALLY relax in my shooting!! Thursday night at indoor (Vegas) league I posted a very relaxed 298. Saturday I went to the shop to nock tune my indoor arrows and while tweaking with things, I shot a 447 on a Vegas 450 round. I was going to stop at 300 with a 298, but I was shooting well so I wanted to keep going. During this session I was totally relaxed and not paying attention to score and simply dimpling my target for X count. My concentration was only on making the cleanest shots possible. When I was done I looked at my target and noticed the three dropped points were all liners in which a dishonest person would have called in (lol). I am learning not to dwell on the bad shots and instead have been putting my focus on the great shots and what went right. Now, I'll be the first to admit that those are not my best scores on a Vegas target nor are they anything to write home about (especially on this sub-forum), however the thing I am most excited about is I am learning to LET GO OF MY SHOT AND FOCUS ON AIMING!!! With my focus on my aim and a steady pull into the wall, my shots are breaking so clean with the button it has become just about automatic. The reason I say just about is that I am conciously reminding myself not to control my shot. Shooting this way truly is stress free and easy! Everything I have been told here, by my coach, and by my local shooting buddies is all starting to make sense. As my coach would say, I get in my own way sometimes.... 

I want to say thanks to those who helped me here and in PM's with the original inquiry. I just need to keep this going... I am no longer worried about getting a great score, only making great shots.


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## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

One thing that I forgot to mention!! On those shots where I settle in and it's got a bit of float within the gold (my dot covers all but about 3/8" of the gold), I learned to smile internally and embrace the float, because I know it's going in the middle. In those shots where I say it's scary how well it's holding, I smile and induce a bit of float so I don't panic. On those shots where my float is into the red, I keep my arrow and let it down for a re-start. Those liners I mentioned above were all atributed to a breakdown in my focus or sending the arrow when I knew I shouldn't have! Mental game....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I went ahead and read through all of the posts in this old thread and there was some really good stuff in there by a variety of people. 

I think you are going through the same progression that all of us have to go through, we fall in love with the sport and the competition and have some success in the beginning and that success ends up fueling the fire but at the same time it slows us down. Why? Because we don't want to let go of the things working at the time, sooner or later though we see that we must let go so that we can move on and become a different and way better shooter. 

Good luck


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Dan,
It sounds like you are really progressing well. :thumbs_up
I appreciate your follow up on this tread.
Padgett is right, there is a lot of good information on this tread.
One of the harder things now is sticking with the gradual improvement that most experience. Sometimes it gets discouraging, but it will gradually come to you.
One rule of thumb I've heard is that once someone reaches a certain level, they tend to add one X to their score per year. The thing that can help you beat this rule of thumb is confidence. One of the great coaches told me that after you get pretty good, accuracy comes from confidence.

Good luck,
Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I have a Stan Shootoff 3 finger. It's set something of heavy and not a bunch. I can pick it up, not think and I hit so well with it and then I do so well with my TRU Ball ST360 also. After 10 years of using a thumb release switching to a hinge full time has been one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I seem to be getting the hang of it.

I have my thumb releases set so the barrel is "bone to bone" right next to the hand thumb joint... So all fingers and thumb engaged and a slight pull gives the wanted release....Always trying to analyze my shot, it does seem that my ring finger pulls. Long as I don't think I'm good


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