# WOW..Bow is really out of tune



## flybub (Nov 2, 2007)

This is my first year getting into the technical side of the archery and I'm loving every minute of it. I've been reading through thousands of posts here in the tuning section the last few weeks so I decided to take some measurements on my Instinct. 
Here is what I came out with...Don't laugh :tongue:
A to A should be 31" I got 29-3/4" on one side, 29-7/8" on the other.
BH should be 7-1/2" and it was dead on 7-1/2".
DL sent from the factory at 29" AMO. Measured DL is 29-1/2" AMO.

I have my work cut out for me but I'm still saving to get myself some tools (press, vise, arrow saw, etc.) I'm not real sure where to start and I guess I can't worry about it until I get ahold of a press but none the less I can't wait to start tinkering. You guys have been a big help already and I haven't asked a question yet. :darkbeer:


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## Aim4gold (Dec 19, 2006)

Be sure to check your axel to axel using this method

From Oxford at http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=454032

How to measure axle-to-axle distance?


The axle is the small "pin" that holds your cams/idler wheel in the limbs. Measure from the center of the top axle to the center of the bottom axle. 

This measurement is taken with the limb bolts maxed out (maximum poundage-screwed all the way down) in determining the axle-to-axle distance.

This is your axle to axle distance. 

Most manufacturers recommend taking this measurement on the side opposite your shelf (the side where the arrow rests).


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't want to come off like a jerk but I think people spend way too much time tuning bows. Why not use that time to practice. Even the most out of tune bow will put an arrow in the same hole every time if you shoot like a machine.


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## Aim4gold (Dec 19, 2006)

hoytmonger said:


> I don't want to come off like a jerk


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## flybub (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks for the advise. Can't wait to get some tools so I can start playing. Thanks Aim4Gold and DWagoner for your help and giving me a place to start. Much appreciated. Take Care.


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## bginvestor (Aug 12, 2008)

Can someone please provide me a good definition on "cam lean".. Thanks




dwagoner said:


> I wouldnt put a whole lot into static ata with regards to side to side differnce, would put more into getting that cam lean out at full draw, so if you have a drawing board get your cam lean as best you can at full draw. With a Bear your not gonna find the cam timing marks and seems noone ever knows how they do it but you can do it by measuring DL, so once you get to doing that would do it by measuring and setting DL to correct specs and then your cam timing should be as close to right as we Bear owners know. Not too much to deal with but like you said with the tools its just a little time to get your bow back into spec. GL and enjoy that :darkbeer:


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2007)

A to A was listed at 31, but it should be 30", and then it changes depending on where you have the string adjuster set, the important measurement is brace height, and that is approx 7 and a half.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

dwagoner said:


> LOL sounds like what you hear from most the people when you go to Bass Pro archery or most retail stores!!


Yeah. 

Flybub, I'm not sure what some people have against "tuning", even more, why they would even bother with the AT tuning forum, but it IS worth the time.

Could be me, but I find the more precisely my bows are tuned, the better they shoot. Practice is important, but tuning is the way to get the most from your equipment.


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## Aim4gold (Dec 19, 2006)

TMan51 said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Flybub, I'm not sure what some people have against "tuning", even more, why they would even bother with the AT tuning forum, but it IS worth the time.
> 
> Could be me, but I find the more precisely my bows are tuned, the better they shoot. Practice is important, but tuning is the way to get the most from your equipment.


+!
A well tuned bow will pay you back with a little "forgivness" when your form has some flaws :smile:


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## Good Moses (Oct 17, 2008)

hoytmonger said:


> I don't want to come off like a jerk but I think people spend way too much time tuning bows. Why not use that time to practice. Even the most out of tune bow will put an arrow in the same hole every time if you shoot like a machine.


Interesting analysis. :set1_thinking: Thanks for sharing.


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

Aim4gold said:


> +!
> A well tuned bow will pay you back with a little "forgivness" when your form has some flaws :smile:


 A perfectly tuned bow is only relevant if you have perfect form and if you have perfect form bow tuning is irrelevant. I'm just trying to save you folks from yourselves, put the allen wrenches down and practice your form until it's perfect or at least repeatable every time. Tuning is a head game, if you're worried about your bow or accessories then chances are you'll shoot poorly. It's not the bow it's the shooter. My bow isn't perfectly tuned and it doesn't effect my head but if my form slacks for whatever reason then I worry. Like I posted earlier, I didn't mean to come off like a jerk but the guy who started this thread seemed to be really worried about some minor adjustments and was going to buy all kinds of equipment so he could tinker, I was hoping to save him some trouble. I'm not against tuning, I just think you could spend your time more productively. Spending alot of time tuning when your form isn't right is like building a hot rod and you don't know how to drive.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

hoytmonger said:


> A perfectly tuned bow is only relevant if you have perfect form and if you have perfect form bow tuning is irrelevant. I'm just trying to save you folks from yourselves, put the allen wrenches down and practice your form until it's perfect or at least repeatable every time. Tuning is a head game, if you're worried about your bow or accessories then chances are you'll shoot poorly. It's not the bow it's the shooter. My bow isn't perfectly tuned and it doesn't effect my head but if my form slacks for whatever reason then I worry. Like I posted earlier, I didn't mean to come off like a jerk but the guy who started this thread seemed to be really worried about some minor adjustments and was going to buy all kinds of equipment so he could tinker, I was hoping to save him some trouble. I'm not against tuning, I just think you could spend your time more productively. Spending alot of time tuning when your form isn't right is like building a hot rod and you don't know how to drive.



While I don't think you need to have a "perfect" bow, one that is more than slightly screwed up is going to make it inconsistent. I mean, if you shot it from a machine, barring arrow differences, you would want it to group pretty tightly from any distance. Now mix in the fact that most of us don't have perfect form and can be inconsistent and add the multiplier of a bow that is off a bit and it just gets worse. Now how much you have to be "out" before you've got to tear the bow down is an unknown, but if the ATA isn't even, I'd be a bit worried.

This reminds me of something I hear often with my cycling club. I could spend $500 to get a few grams of weight off my bike.....Or I could just skip the Big Mac and ride some more....:darkbeer:


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

I started another thread in this forum about bow tuning vs. form and told a story about Terry Ragsdale. He shot a perfect score in Vegas in 1978 then took the same bow with the same arrows and shot it through paper. He had a 5" 10 O'clock tear. About a month later He shot a perfect score at Cobo Hall in Detroit at the North American Indoor tournament. He used a different bow and this one had cam lean so bad that the string looked like it would jump off at full draw. Now how would a tuned bow help him?
If you can duplicate your shot, so will your bow, tuned or untuned


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

hoytmonger said:


> I started another thread in this forum about bow tuning vs. form and told a story about Terry Ragsdale. He shot a perfect score in Vegas in 1978 then took the same bow with the same arrows and shot it through paper. He had a 5" 10 O'clock tear. About a month later He shot a perfect score at Cobo Hall in Detroit at the North American Indoor tournament. He used a different bow and this one had cam lean so bad that the string looked like it would jump off at full draw. Now how would a tuned bow help him?
> If you can duplicate your shot, so will your bow, tuned or untuned


The problem with that example is that it is a study of N=1 based in 1978 when I don't even think they had a center shot bow risers. You can't make a generalized assumption until the population you are studying is large enough to represent everyone. In general, and if we tested enough people, I would think that it would be proven that archers shoot better with a tuned bow than a non-tuned one. How much untuned would have to be figured out as well. There are always going to be people outside the bell curve like Terry Ragsdale who could probably shoot a bow made from a tree stick and fishing string and beat a bunch of people and some people with the most perfect bow ever and horrible form that couldn't hit the side of a barn.

Duplicating one's form is only one side of the equation as there is no guarantee that the bow is performing consistently. If the bow is shooting nock high, is it always the same amount high? I agree completely that you must work on your form as it is the highest variable of inconsistency in the shot and this is definitely what will make you better. Eliminating tuning issues just helps it get that much better. 

SB


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

The bow Terry shot in Vegas was a four wheel PSE Citation, I'm unfamiliar with this model so I don't know about the riser. The bow he shot in Detroit was a two wheel bow, I don't know the model.
I think that if you have consistent form and a set of perfectly matched arrows, same weight to the grain, same fletching from the same jig, same exact nock alignment and you can shoot well with any bow. Same as Terry. The main thing is to have consistency in your shot sequence.


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## Aim4gold (Dec 19, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> are always going to be people outside the bell curve like Terry Ragsdale who could probably shoot a bow made from a tree stick and fishing string and beat a bunch of people and some people with the most perfect bow ever and horrible form that couldn't hit the side of a barn.
> SB


+1
Form, skill and the mental game far exceed equipment


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

hoytmonger said:


> I think that if you have consistent form and a set of perfectly matched arrows, same weight to the grain, same fletching from the same jig, same exact nock alignment and you can shoot well with any bow. Same as Terry. The main thing is to have consistency in your shot sequence.


To a point, yes....

Basically, we are listing every possible element that can change the result of the shot. If a shooter can start eliminating the variability in each component, his shot will get better. The easiest thing to fix with the least amount of effort is your equipment. Getting the right arrows, nocks, vanes, points, rest, sight, scope, release is pretty easy to do. So is getting the bow tuned and shooting well. After that, it just comes down to form which is definitely the hardest thing to get right.

Now buying great equipment will NOT make you a better shooter. It may forgive more of your mistakes, but you won't be shooting perfectly because of it alone. It does allow you to focus on your form as the other variabilities of the shot have been minimized.

In the end, a shooter with great form with average equipment will always outperform a shooter with OK form and great equipment. However, no level of form will compensate for a bow that is inconsistent....

Sorry for the ramble....I work in cancer research analyzing data, so this what I kind of do all day....:teeth:


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

Alright, I'll agree to disagree with you. I still think that if you have consistent form and good arrows than you can still get good groups with an out of tune bow.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

hoytmonger said:


> Alright, I'll agree to disagree with you. I still think that if you have consistent form and good arrows than you can still get good groups with an out of tune bow.



Nope...sorry...I agree with everything your saying...if the bow is out of tune, but consistently out of tune you will still get good groups and probably great groups if it's not that bad. But when you get back end of the arrow rolling in circles or bouncing off the rest its just too hard to be consistent.

Having the form is what allows someone to walk up to any bow and be a good shot. The same form with a well tuned bow is a recipe for success....

SB


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## TOOL (Apr 11, 2006)

Terry wasn't shooting Fita distances or extreme up and downhill shots. Nor did he have a broadhead on the shaft. A bow needs to be tuned to shoot consistently under various different conditions. Perfect form can compensate for one shot condition nothing more.


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

Form is the basis of a stable shooting platform. It doesn't matter if its up or downhill or if you're shooting field points or broadheads, if you're inside or outside, without consistent form you may as well go fishing. 
Terry Ragsdale shot perfect scores with imperfect equip. I don't think anyone else has shot a perfect score in Vegas since, but I could be mistaken.
If you're going to spend your time chasing an eighth of an inch here or a quarter of an inch there and your form is not consistent what are you accomplishing? Having a well tuned bow that will spray arrows all over the place.


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## hoytmonger (Sep 16, 2008)

Sorry to have hijacked this thread flybub, I tried to start a new one in this forum but this thread got a better response.
If tuning your bow makes you happy then so be it. It just seemed to me that people are more into the equipment than into shooting.
As for the dummies that think I sound like I work at Bass Pro or retail, if you got this kind of response there, then that employee is doing their store a disservice. If I had a sucker on the hook like you, you would wind up spending your entire paycheck on crap you don't need.
I've been lucky enough to be able to pick the brains of some pretty successful target and 3D shooters. They've taught me a lot of ways to improve my accuracy and none of that time was spent on a workbench adjusting my bow.


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## 6cuda6 (Nov 10, 2008)

I think if you want to take the bow to the factory specs...good. I wouldn't spend a fortune on tools to do it though.

I agree with both end of the argument but if HIS form is perfect and he only shoots HIS untuned bow that should give him excellent results. If his form is bad and he shoots a perfect bow i suspect it wil give him poor results.

Now this wouldn't be true of course if he shot different bows....unless his form was perfect he would not get good results???

To quote one of my teachers.....it's not the tools that make a good mechanic, it's the mechanic that makes a good mechanic but good tools can make a mechanic great!!! wink:


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## Tacdryver (Dec 2, 2008)

A PSE Citation has very small wheels...eliminates the lean issue, aids consistancy. My Ovation is starting to become a bear....if getting that huge idler to lean right isn't my problem, then I find that big ol' cam is leaning as well. Thinking about going to a dual cam bow from now on. For those that don't want to tune thier bows...well, typicaly they don't get off the little 20 yard 'kiddie' range.


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