# semi contengency?



## VAN DAM (Feb 16, 2010)

I was about to ask the same question, i just moved so i am not affiliated with a shop so i can shoot whatever i want, and i won into semi pro for this year. I remember bowtech paid contengencies a few years back havent heard if they do that still


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Mathews pays a $1000 for a win unless they've changed.


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## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Elite may.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Yes, Elite did too. Again if things haven't changed for the new year.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> Mathews pays a $1000 for a win unless they've changed.


Gotta appreceite a manufactuer like Mathews.

Elite contengency on there website forum
DB


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## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Mathews is now $500.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> Mathews is now $500.


Was it a $1000 last year?


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## bcbow1971 (Oct 24, 2007)

Athens pays contingency for any class. If interested in details let me or Rodney482 know.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

the way is going I guess they will expect us to pay to shoot there product, oh well I still love 3D and my freinds, these companys might just get a wake up when people stop buying and shooting there products


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

You guys crack me up...Contingency money...??? You want contingency money in the pro division, you now want contingency money in the semi-pro, and I suspect you also would want it in the "amateur" division separately too. What a crock.
Where on earth do you think all these contingency money bucks are going to come from? All you are doing is watering down the money the PROS should be getting! They pay the bigger entry fees, they are professionals...and you guys are basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is only so much money to go around, especially when it is contingency money.

So, you guys want contingency at every tournament for Pro, Semi-Pro (a ridiculous "class"...you are either pro or IMHO...no go for money), and some would ask for it in amateur too.

So, that means the companies take X amount of monies budgeted for contingency for a given year...and instead of having BIG money...they have to divvy that sum up for let's say 7 tournaments (likely more than that) and instead of one, you ask for two or three contingency money "pots", but they are separate?

Gimme a break...money doesn't grow on trees and you guys basically want MORE handouts...and cry when the contingency goes down because of the divvying up that MUST come about by having so many "classes" to pay contingency to.

ONE contingency, open to anyone shooting that brand of equipment used to be the modus operendi....then the shooters got greedy...and now want contingency for just about any group that shows up. Sorta like getting a trophy just for registering or making the team even if you cannot hit a bull in the butt with a fiddle.

No such thing as "your fair share"....unless you step up to the plate and shoot the top scores and ante up.l

You guys are pricing yourelves right out of the market with your demands for more money, more contingency, and more this and that...but aren't willing to ante up to EARN IT.

Don't gimme this "we pay good money to attend these tournaments so we want some return on our investment" crap....so do ALL the other shooters in attendance. You start putting MONEY into any sport and people start getting greedy and want more and more...until the companies sponsoring get fed up with all the BS and pull the plug. What are those sponsors getting for their money? A bunch of cry-babies that want even more and a better chance to take home a prize....even if they don't muster up with the scores to earn it.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

field14 said:


> You guys crack me up...Contingency money...??? You want contingency money in the pro division, you now want contingency money in the semi-pro, and I suspect you also would want it in the "amateur" division separately too. What a crock.
> Where on earth do you think all these contingency money bucks are going to come from? All you are doing is watering down the money the PROS should be getting! They pay the bigger entry fees, they are professionals...and you guys are basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is only so much money to go around, especially when it is contingency money.
> 
> So, you guys want contingency at every tournament for Pro, Semi-Pro (a ridiculous "class"...you are either pro or IMHO...no go for money), and some would ask for it in amateur too.
> ...


How do you really feel lol?

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SET THE HOOK said:


> How do you really feel lol?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2


That if you want to shoot for money....you ante up and shoot Pro or you don't "qualify" for money prizes, period. There is no real need for semi-pro and other categories watering down the money situation for the PROS. However, we can agree to disagree on the subject.
If you want to run with the big dogs, then ante up and get off the porch.

Some likely will disagree, and I defend their right to do so; they, too, are entitled to their opinion on the issue.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> You guys crack me up...Contingency money...??? You want contingency money in the pro division, you now want contingency money in the semi-pro, and I suspect you also would want it in the "amateur" division separately too. What a crock.
> Where on earth do you think all these contingency money bucks are going to come from? All you are doing is watering down the money the PROS should be getting! They pay the bigger entry fees, they are professionals...and you guys are basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is only so much money to go around, especially when it is contingency money.
> 
> So, you guys want contingency at every tournament for Pro, Semi-Pro (a ridiculous "class"...you are either pro or IMHO...no go for money), and some would ask for it in amateur too.
> ...


As usual your full of yourself, but thanks for giving all of us your opionion.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

okarcher said:


> As usual your full of yourself, but thanks for giving all of us your opionion.


Thanks for acknowledging the fact that it is my "opinion"...the "full of myself"...is a bit toned. Been in this sport more than long enough to see this same thing about money, contingency money...and the LOSS of the PAA as a direct result of the greed and too many "others" wanting a piece of the "PRO PIE"....This same thing has been up and down and up and down several times; just the same ole thing with different people is all.

About time for the "next batch" of run-ins over "money pots" and "Contingency money" and people wanting something without earning it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> You guys crack me up...Contingency money...??? You want contingency money in the pro division, you now want contingency money in the semi-pro, and I suspect you also would want it in the "amateur" division separately too. What a crock.
> Where on earth do you think all these contingency money bucks are going to come from? All you are doing is watering down the money the PROS should be getting! They pay the bigger entry fees, they are professionals...and you guys are basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is only so much money to go around, especially when it is contingency money.
> 
> So, you guys want contingency at every tournament for Pro, Semi-Pro (a ridiculous "class"...you are either pro or IMHO...no go for money), and some would ask for it in amateur too.
> ...


Spoken like a true non pro that never has hit the pro tournament trail. If you never able to win on the top level its easy to sit back and say this statement. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Thanks for acknowledging the fact that it is my "opinion"...the "full of myself"...is a bit toned. Been in this sport more than long enough to see this same thing about money, contingency money...and the LOSS of the PAA as a direct result of the greed and too many "others" wanting a piece of the "PRO PIE"....This same thing has been up and down and up and down several times; just the same ole thing with different people is all.
> 
> About time for the "next batch" of run-ins over "money pots" and "Contingency money" and people wanting something without earning it.



Who not earning it? You realize how hard it is to win or even try and get to the pro level. Contengency is earned and not given to them.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Spoken like a true non pro that never has hit the pro tournament trail. If you never able to win on the top level its easy to sit back and say this statement.
> DB


Spoken by someone that knows not what they are even talking about nor the past history of the person they are talking about. Did my "stint" qualifying for the PAA in the early 1970's. Had recommendations from the likes of Vic Leach, Denise Libby, and several other PAA pros of the time, but not in time to get certified, cuz the PAA went off -line at about that same time. Back then, not only did you have to have the recommendations, you also had to QUALIFY for entry into the PAA and hold to strict requirements.and I had all the recommendations completed, and I had the scores....You didn't get to be a pro just by paying your money to join the pro organization like it is today.
Then, did my stint in the Pros in the late 1970's thru the mid 1980's too... Been there and done that, Dan...long before you even began to come on the scene.

I KNOW what I'm talking about when it comes to this up and down and up and down with regard to contingency money and everyone wanting a piece of the pie, but not wanting to ante up to run with the big dogs!

PROS shoot for money, amateurs shoot for trophies and non-monetary awards. Put ALL the contingency money into ONE basket and there would be a higher payout.

80% of registration fees ONLY does not for a decent payout make! Start divvying up "sponsorship monies" among several "levels" of quasi imitator pros, and it is self evident that something has to give and that robbing the sponsorship monies (and contingency) is the only way to divvy up the available funds...thus cutting off your nose to spite your face with wanting more than there is to give.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Spoken by someone that knows not what they are even talking about nor the past history of the person they are talking about. Did my "stint" qualifying for the PAA but not in time to get certified, cuz they went off -line at about that same time. Had to QUALIFY for entry into the PAA, and I had all the recommendations completed....so much for a "non Pro"...wasn't a pro just by paying your money to join.
> Then, did my stint in the Pros in the late 1970's thru the mid 1980's too... Been there and done that, Dan...long before you even began to come on the scene.
> 
> I KNOW what I'm talking about when it comes to this up and down and up and down with regard to contingency money and everyone wanting a piece of the pie, but not wanting to ante up to run with the big dogs!
> ...


Contengcy a good thing. Giving a little to those trying to get to the pros isnt a bad thing. Once again contengency is earned only by those who can win. Not the pro/semi pro that couldnt win on his best day.
DB


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## itsme (Nov 6, 2007)

field14 said:


> You guys crack me up...Contingency money...??? You want contingency money in the pro division, you now want contingency money in the semi-pro, and I suspect you also would want it in the "amateur" division separately too. What a crock.
> Where on earth do you think all these contingency money bucks are going to come from? All you are doing is watering down the money the PROS should be getting! They pay the bigger entry fees, they are professionals...and you guys are basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is only so much money to go around, especially when it is contingency money.
> 
> So, you guys want contingency at every tournament for Pro, Semi-Pro (a ridiculous "class"...you are either pro or IMHO...no go for money), and some would ask for it in amateur too.
> ...


Well said.

P.S. Thanks for taking the time to spell "contingency" correct.....haha


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

itsme said:


> Well said.
> 
> P.S. Thanks for taking the time to spell "contingency" correct.....haha


You mean correctly?


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## itsme (Nov 6, 2007)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> You mean correctly?


Dang it, you got me, lol. I was pointing out spelling, not grammar. Thanks!! HAHA


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## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

I knew it was only a matter of time before the 3D Expert Field 14 throws his wisdom into the ring, Your mentality is so ridiculous the top BIG Dogs as you call them can't be compared to the average archer (semi pro). The top 3D pros are funded from the mfgs (entry fees,plane tickets,hotel rooms...etc) A average working man can't concure these expenses and the $300 entry fee required to shoot pro, not to mention most top semi pros work a regular job.....so $145 in entry fee and almost the same payouts (not counting contingecy $$$) it's a no brainer for most. So go ahead keep living in your dream world Field14, where a 9-5 working man can just compete with funded archers who shoot five days a week and judge yardage every day.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

In most other sports the amateurs get paid as they travel to the pro level. If you take the money out of the amateur’s level you will kill 3D at the national level. It would cut down on the people who would travel to shoot. I know most don’t when money when they go but they have the same chance and opportunity. Saying only the pros should get paid is like saying only the bosses should get paid not all the workers below them helping make the product they sell. Not all mfg’s pay contingency, but some choose to (their choice) to give back to those who support them. Can’t really think of one mfg that pays amateur contingency that don’t pay pro but just pay the pro’s more. (They may be some but none I could think of off top of my head).


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

okarcher said:


> In most other sports the amateurs get paid as they travel to the pro level. If you take the money out of the amateur’s level you will kill 3D at the national level. It would cut down on the people who would travel to shoot. I know most don’t when money when they go but they have the same chance and opportunity. Saying only the pros should get paid is like saying only the bosses should get paid not all the workers below them helping make the product they sell. Not all mfg’s pay contingency, but some choose to (their choice) to give back to those who support them. Can’t really think of one mfg that pays amateur contingency that don’t pay pro but just pay the pro’s more. (They may be some but none I could think of off top of my head).


Bowtech at one time paid amateurs, but never paid pros. I don't know if they still pay amateurs or not, but they still don't pay pros.

I personally can't think of any other sports where amateurs get paid. Heck, winning a hole in one contest at the local muny golf course will end that person's amateur status if they take the prize. Any monies given to amateur winners of events will end their "amateur" status in almost all sports.....it will even end an archer's hopes of going to college on an archery scholarship (which are few and far between these days) if they win contingency or accept a winning purse. I distinctly remember when Mary Zorn won Vegas back when she was on scholarship for Texas A&M and she had to turn down the money so as not to loose her amateur status.

Amateurs are folks that do something without being paid for it, thus the title of amateur. Archery is one of the few established sports, with established pro leagues, where somehow amateurs can win money and still be amateurs.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Rey where is the Pro league for archery?


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

All the guys I know that play golf aren't pros but they sure play in a lot of tournaments for money payouts. The Nike tour sure pays money. Minor league baseball players get paid, D league NBA players get paid, kid who show animals in FFA and 4H get paid when they win and all these people are considered amateurs. We’re not talking about Collegiate or state mandated sports associations for high schools.


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## VAN DAM (Feb 16, 2010)

Congratulations on your beautiful rant, does someone need a hug. Nobody was even crying about not getting paid enough in semi-pro. I think some people just look for something to rant about


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

VAN DAM said:


> Congratulations on your beautiful rant, does someone need a hug. Nobody was even crying about not getting paid enough in semi-pro. I think some people just look for something to rant about


Who are you talking about or to who! Your now talking for all the guys that can win contingency moneys! Apparently you dont care about winning money. Shoot amateurs!
DB


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## VAN DAM (Feb 16, 2010)

I was talking about field14's post DB. I love winning money and I am working my way to the pros. I thought his long winded post was a little silly considering this thread was about who was paying what for semi-pro and not that they were'nt paying enough


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

VAN DAM said:


> I was talking about field14's post DB. I love winning money and I am working my way to the pros. I thought his long winded post was a little silly considering this thread was about who was paying what for semi-pro and not that they were'nt paying enough


Make sense. Understand field14 not very impressed with 3d archery. Actually never heard him ever talk positive about it. 
DB


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

archers helping archers.....:icon_1_lol:


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Fact: In ASA, IBO or NFAA the vast majority of shooters are "amateurs". Without the amateurs there would be no venues for Pro shooters period. Do think ASA would put on national shoots that only had 120 shooters? I don't think so. It is about time that manufacturers realize that while the Pro class is the top class it is the lowly amateur classes that keep them in business. On the subject of money.....if the Pros played the way amateurs do......shooting for a percentage of their entry and no contingency how long would we have a Pro class? If we used IBO's payback (shoot for $15/$52) I am sure there would not be a Pro at all.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Bubba Dean said:


> Rey where is the Pro league for archery?


We both know the answer to that, there ain't one. Ever since the PAA folded there isn't even a pro association anymore.


okarcher said:


> All the guys I know that play golf aren't pros but they sure play in a lot of tournaments for money payouts. The Nike tour sure pays money. Minor league baseball players get paid, D league NBA players get paid, kid who show animals in FFA and 4H get paid when they win and all these people are considered amateurs. We’re not talking about Collegiate or state mandated sports associations for high schools.


If your buddies are playing golf for money, they are no longer amateurs. According to the USGA, the governing body of golf in the US, and the R&A, the governing body for most of the rest of the world, anyone receiving payment for playing golf looses their amateur status. They may not necessarily be members of the PGA, but they are not still not amateurs according to all the governing bodies. Even the guys on the lower tours are not amateurs. Just ask anyone on the lower golf tours if they would be eligible to play in the US amateur. The short answer is.....nope. There are various types of pro golfers, those that are card carrying members of the PGA tour, card carrying memebers of the PGA, and anyone else that pays for money.

Minor league baseball players, again, professionals. They are not eligible to play in any amateur events, from high school through college. Heck, they can't even play in amateur softball tournaments. Heck, the ASA (softball here not archery), the world governing body for softball, even has rules in place against minor league and professional league ball players playing in their sanctioned tournaments. They do host tournaments for pros, and they define pros as anyone receiving monetary payments or a specific amount of equipment from manufacturers (which I don't remember off the top of my head anymore but I think it is anything over $500/year) in a year. Pros cannot play in amateur events.

Minor league basketball players as defined by the USBAA and the FIBA (national and international basketball governing bodies) as pros because they get paid to play. Once again, and individual can receive gifts up to $2500 per year and still be an amateur, but anything over that an they are pros. You do not have to be in the NBA to be a Pro basketball player. Are they members of the NBA players association? Nope, but they are still pros and will tell you they play golf professionally.

Don't know anything about show animals, so I can't speak about that.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, I realize if they took the money out attendance would drop like a lead balloon. Maybe what archery really needs is the rebirth of the PAA and a restructuring of classes/classifications. A single organization to bring pro archers under 1 umbrella, and with requirements to become a pro, more than simply paying the pro fee to get a card and paying the higher entry fees.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

reylamb said:


> We both know the answer to that, there ain't one. Ever since the PAA folded there isn't even a pro association anymore.
> 
> 
> If your buddies are playing golf for money, they are no longer amateurs. According to the USGA, the governing I'm body of golf in the US, and the R&A, the governing body for most of the rest of the world, anyone receiving payment for playing golf looses their amateur status. They may not necessarily be members of the PGA, but they are not still not amateurs according to all the governing bodies. Even the guys on the lower tours are not amateurs. Just ask anyone on the lower golf tours if they would be eligible to play in the US amateur. The short answer is.....nope. There are various types of pro golfers, those that are card carrying members of the PGA tour, card carrying memebers of the PGA, and anyone else that pays for money.
> ...


We did have something that tried/started that back in the 90A.D...APA but that faded away


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Rey you got me:smile: Where is the PAA and the APA now? Defunct, why because organizations can't survive with only a handful of participants.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Bubba Dean said:


> Rey you got me:smile: Where is the PAA and the APA now? Defunct, why because organizations can't survive with only a handful of participants.


I think they could, but it would take marketing and money from outside the archery world. Possibly even.......heaven forbid, a multi-format tournament trail that is not part of ASA/IBO/NFAA.....either that or......something that would probably never happen....a tournament trail that would run and administer the pro classes for ASA/IBO/NFAA/WAF. The tournament orgs could keep the entry fees, but the sanctioned pros would shoot for money from outside sponsorship, and get rid of contingency completely.......but it would need outside money and would not be able to survive on funding from the archery mfg alone......and I doubt the orgs would give up the control of those classes.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Who not earning it? You realize how hard it is to win or even try and get to the pro level. Contengency is earned and not given to them.
> DB


DB is right and I would bet that you have not travel out of state to an ASA in years if ever, by the way this is 3D section, what is the diff, I dont go to field forum and act like I know everything


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## itsme (Nov 6, 2007)

carlosii said:


> archers helping archers.....:icon_1_lol:


Now that's funny stuff!! O.P. starts off with essentially a yes or no question, and look what it turns into. As I've said before, some people really need a pet.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I understand and already knew everything you said reylamb, but your not getting my point. I have buddies and family members who have played golf in the PGA and Nike Tour and yes the one that played on the Nike Tour will tell you he is a pro but not PGA Pro. Kinda like a shop pro being golf or archery several guys on maybe their shop pro but not a ASA or IBO pro. No they can't go play college or play in tournaments that don't pay money but are for those wanting to keep their elgibility for what is coined amateur status. But because I have one my fair share on the golf course and tournaments I am by no means a pro. I also have had buddies play minor league baseball and not one of them will tell you their a pro, no they can no longer play college ball but thats about it. Maybe using the word amateur is catagorized differently by almost all org's. But in the scheme of things if their not playing on the big stage we usually don't give them the title of pro. It does seem tho that all sports have their stepping stones to move toward pro status and in each you usually start making $$$ before you get to the top so why should archery be any different? Again everyting rey said previously is true, he was just missing the point I was trying to make and apparently is quiet knowledgeable cause a lot of people wouldn't know all that.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

And yes it is funny how we've taken this thread way off topic. LOL It just starts with one to get off subject with a opionated remark and boom it becomes a for or against thread. Dang and apparently im as bad as anyone.


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## bowjoe1800 (Sep 8, 2008)

All should remember, when comparing "3D ARCHERY" to just about any other sport, they have a gate fee and the fans are sitting in the stands. That does not exist with 
3D. It is really not a spectator sport except for the shoot downs and then all you have are family members and the people who wish they were out there. Olympic style archery may have many spectators in the stands but not 3D. I would suppose gate fees are considered in paybacks for individual sport competitions but since 3D does not have this we depend on entrance fees and the contingencies for cash awards.
IBO does have $10 fee to walk around with a shooter but that is another story.
If I were a Pro and now even as a participant in amateur classes, I base the use of certain products, arrows, fletching, binos, releases, strings, bows and etc. on quality,
usefullness, and if they pay a contingency award. If I am going to shoot, I will use what gives me a little back, and I will recommend that product to others. A helping hand always deserves a little help back. 
I will tell the truth and say I purchased an Elite bow in early 2011 after reading all the pros and very few negatives on this site, and because they have a very good contingency program for amateurs. It is a fine product and I was able to win more than enough in contingency to pay for the bow. 
Hoyt may not see a bit of difference on the bottom line after dropping contingency awards but I hope everyone lets them know how disapointed we are in this decision.
IMO


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## bowjoe1800 (Sep 8, 2008)

bowjoe1800 said:


> All should remember, when comparing "3D ARCHERY" to just about any other sport, they have a gate fee and the fans are sitting in the stands. That does not exist with
> 3D. It is really not a spectator sport except for the shoot downs and then all you have are family members and the people who wish they were out there. Olympic style archery may have many spectators in the stands but not 3D. I would suppose gate fees are considered in paybacks for individual sport competitions but since 3D does not have this we depend on entrance fees and the contingencies for cash awards.
> IBO does have $10 fee to walk around with a shooter but that is another story.
> If I were a Pro and now even as a participant in amateur classes, I base the use of certain products, arrows, fletching, binos, releases, strings, bows and etc. on quality,
> ...


Sorry this should have been in another thread. Oh well.


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## threelakes (Oct 10, 2010)

his post is a little harsh, but does make sense there is only so much money to go around and in no way do i mean to offend anyone but if the money is in the pro ranks then that's where you need to be.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I, NOT " field 14\the 3D Hater" to get some basic information regarding contengency for semi pro, not to hear field to complain, piss, moan, etc. Field, Tom, " I can think of other accurate metaphors to describe you, but will go cry to moderators", Do you not have anything better to do than attack us? Seriously, are you that bored? You live in Illinois, land of big bucks, its deer season, go outside and enjoy yourself. 
This is a 3D section, regarding 3D topics. Just because YOU don't approve, I doubt that the ASA nor IBO will eliminate the Semi Pro class to make you happy. 

I know that I have not, and I dont think many of 3D ers go to the field section to complain about field archery. I have nothing against field archery,nor indoor spots. show us the same respect please


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Do we even have a field section? :darkbeer:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

outbackarcher said:


> Do we even have a field section? :darkbeer:


oooooohhhh...that's harsh. there is a field forum but its kinda small as forums go. its a tad bigger than the history one, and huge compared to the NFAA Pro Forum, which might be the answer to a question which nobody asked. :smile:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

carlosii said:


> oooooohhhh...that's harsh. there is a field forum but its kinda small as forums go. its a tad bigger than the history one, and huge compared to the NFAA Pro Forum, which might be the answer to a question which nobody asked. :smile:


What did I ask??????:tongue:

That is the forum where you can see the old-school field guys degrade 3D.....because 3D killed field archery.....wait....did I just say that:angel:


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

outbackarcher said:


> Do we even have a field section? :darkbeer:


yes we do its dead, so I guess they come over here and try to kill 3D, nice buck you killed kade


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

sorry for flabbing. Im just tired of us ( 3D shooters) being attacked. What sport drives archery? HUNTING What archery competion/venue is the closest to hunting? 3D !!!!!!!! NOT FIELD ARCHERY, NOT INDOORS, 

I enjoy all venues, but prefer 3D What crime have I committed? 











1


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

3Dblackncamo said:


> yes we do its dead, so I guess they come over here and try to kill 3D, nice buck you killed kade


Thanks Gary


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Im jealous Kade,,,,you have killed way to many nice bucks,,,time to share!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> I, NOT " field 14\the 3D Hater" to get some basic information regarding contengency for semi pro, not to hear field to complain, piss, moan, etc. Field, Tom, " I can think of other accurate metaphors to describe you, but will go cry to moderators", Do you not have anything better to do than attack us?  Seriously, are you that bored? You live in Illinois, land of big bucks, its deer season, go outside and enjoy yourself.
> This is a 3D section, regarding 3D topics. Just because YOU don't approve, I doubt that the ASA nor IBO will eliminate the Semi Pro class to make you happy.
> 
> 
> I know that I have not, and I dont think many of 3D ers go to the field section to complain about field archery. I have nothing against field archery,nor indoor spots. show us the same respect please


You guys, and that INCLUDES 'target shooters, field shooters, spotties, whatever you call them', are pricing yourselves right out of the market.
There is only so much money to go around from the manuf, and if they have to divvy it up among the REAL Pros, the "quasi/semi-pros" and now amateurs too...then no wonder the payouts have dropped dramatically since the 1990's? DAH.... Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that part of the equation.
The money doesn't grow on trees...and even in TARGET/Field Archery...PROS should be the ones shooting for the money (Vegas is a big, huge exception and it is based upon and planned upon for amateurs to shoot for some money...that comes from the entry fees and NOT "sponsorship".

Peeing and moaning about not enough money from the manufacturers, expecting MORE money from them for some peoples' mentalities as their "just due" for attending a tournament is akin to committing hari-kari...or...pricing yourselves right out of the market.

Want bigger payouts? Simple....MONEY to PROS ONLY and don't milk it down and divvy it up to every john dick and harry that shows up.
Yes, and the same goes with the awards, too...we have more "champions" that pro-wrestling, cuz the mentality today is "everyone is a winner and should be GIVEN something...just for showing up."
Nuf said...but peeing and moaning and looking the gift horses in the mouth...is getting you all NOWHERE. Today, it seems that it has become ALL about the "payout" and the "contingency" and wanting more and more and more...and giving LESS and LESS and LESS back to the sport in the spirit of competition for the sheer joy of competing. "What is in it for ME?" is the only thing people think about.
I'm nearing the end of my competitive career, so frankly, as we said years ago, and some of us still say today, "FIDGAS"! But when the well dries up, which it already has started to do...don't say that we old farts didn't tell you so.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> You guys, and that INCLUDES 'target shooters, field shooters, spotties, whatever you call them', are pricing yourselves right out of the market.
> There is only so much money to go around from the manuf, and if they have to divvy it up among the REAL Pros, the "quasi/semi-pros" and now amateurs too...then no wonder the payouts have dropped dramatically since the 1990's? DAH.... Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that part of the equation.
> The money doesn't grow on trees...and even in TARGET/Field Archery...PROS should be the ones shooting for the money (Vegas is a big, huge exception and it is based upon and planned upon for amateurs to shoot for some money...that comes from the entry fees and NOT "sponsorship".
> 
> ...


Remember what your saying. Give medals at any tournament you run to amatuers and pay money only to the pros. 

Lets see how that works out for you.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Remember what your saying. Give medals at any tournament you run to amatuers and pay money only to the pros.
> 
> Lets see how that works out for you.
> DB


Dan, I've been tournament chairman in tournaments since the late 1960's and or involved in the organization of many a tournament as a committee member, up to and including NFAA Sectional events, and also competed in many more than I've been a party to being on the organizing committee. This includes, over the years, yes, 3-D events too!...So I've pretty much have seen the gauntlet of all sorts of things tried and trashed, re-visited, changed, manipulated, etc. NO tournament is perfect, and neither is the one of which I speak below....BUT....

The thing about "Championship Shooters" shoot for MONEY and trophy shooters only shooting for trophies is working quite effectively for the tournament in the Midwest the first weekend of December. It is clearly defined...you wanna shoot for the money...then ante up and shoot CHAMPIONSHIP; otherwise you shoot ONLY for trophies; period. 
The tournament has filled to capacity 5 out of 6 years (the only year it didn't fill up was the inaugural event), and this year it was full to capacity on October 17 and has remained that way ever since.
Total Payout for LESS than 100 Championship Shooters (in all categories) is OVER $12,000...and over half comes from LOCAL vendors and manufacturers; the rest comes from 75% payback of shooter registration fees, distributed on a stict set of 'rules' and using the NFAA guidelines for how far down you pay based upon participation in the particular shooting category, AND what % each placement pays. No questions asked, because it is in writing and there is no guesswork involved. 

Not bad for a 2-day event, 90 arrows, and a capacity of only 208 shooters. This year, as it now stands, there are a total of 84 "Championship shooters", the rest are Trophy shooters. So, the total payout for those 84 Championship shooters is still likely to be over $12,000 plus some other "heavy stuff" going on.

Certainly there are those in the Championship Division that don't stand a chance of winning the entire shootin' match...Because we pay DEEP, based upon a written document from the NFAA that tells exactly how deep down and what to pay to each placement, most of them have a goal of simply placing "in the money"; and that isn't a bad thing. Actually PAYING DEEP is what was asked for by the Championship Shooters from the very beginning!

I sure wouldn't want to argue with the success above or change much of it around. The above indicates that it IS definitely "working out for us".

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Dan, I've been tournament chairman in tournaments since the late 1960's and or involved in the organization of many a tournament as a committee member, up to and including NFAA Sectional events, and also competed in many more than I've been a party to being on the organizing committee. This includes, over the years, yes, 3-D events too!...So I've pretty much have seen the gauntlet of all sorts of things tried and trashed, re-visited, changed, manipulated, etc. NO tournament is perfect, and neither is the one of which I speak below....BUT....
> 
> The thing about "Championship Shooters" shoot for MONEY and trophy shooters only shooting for trophies is working quite effectively for the tournament in the Midwest the first weekend of December. It is clearly defined...you wanna shoot for the money...then ante up and shoot CHAMPIONSHIP; otherwise you shoot ONLY for trophies; period.
> The tournament has filled to capacity 5 out of 6 years (the only year it didn't fill up was the inaugural event), and this year it was full to capacity on October 17 and has remained that way ever since.
> ...


Im a amatuer and I aint driving that far for a trophy. Good luck and have heard nothing but good things about that tournament from those who attended. Good luck.

DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im a amatuer and I aint driving that far for a trophy. Good luck and have heard nothing but good things about that tournament from those who attended. Good luck.
> 
> DB


Dan, you have the OPTION of shooting in the Championship Division for money...you do NOT have to be a card carrying PRO to shoot for money...that is specifically why the tournament is listed as an "Open" tournament!

We've had great luck with this event as it continues to be very, very popular with everyone that attends, and those trying to get in, hoping for cancellations and being the "first to click so they get the pick."

We would have more shooters if we had more space, but 208 is it, and actually the Host is very happy with this capacity.

You should try it some year.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Dan, you have the OPTION of shooting in the Championship Division for money...you do NOT have to be a card carrying PRO to shoot for money...that is specifically why the tournament is listed as an "Open" tournament!
> 
> We've had great luck with this event as it continues to be very, very popular with everyone that attends, and those trying to get in, hoping for cancellations and being the "first to click so they get the pick."
> 
> ...


Would have a blast no doubt. Lots of good buddies going there. Hoping Kevin Koch has a good indoor season, he capable.

Look forward to seeing results. Always enjoy your state, people are friendly!
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

As to the OP...I haven't a clue.

As to the bigger issue...I hope my decision to shoot or not shoot is not ever predetermined on whether or not I might have the chance to win some cash...that there would take the fun right out of it...


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## Tau44 (Nov 10, 2010)

why did the mods close the thread about hoyt dropping contigency fees?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Tau44 said:


> why did the mods close the thread about hoyt dropping contigency fees?


Some of the fifth grade members (Tyler Texas) hear starting calling names. Some cant disscuss in a cival manner without resulting to name calling like were in the fifth grade. It always those who dont have there name in profile that act like that as well. I thought it was a good thing that many where really interested in. Hoyt pros were diffiantly paying attention to it.

DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Always enjoy those who wouldnt want to win cash award. Heck why we even keep score!

Not a thing wrong with a cash payback. Never seen anyone refuse or be dissasatisfied with one. 

Semis in 3d has been a good stepping up place to gain access to pros. It is a good thing in 3d.
Always enjoy seeing the scores of future pros.
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

^^^Don't confuse desire to compete and win with the willingness to accept whatever reward comes with the price of admission...likewise, ain't nutt'n wrong with a cah prize at the end, but it is not the primary motivator for a lot of people...entirely different things, but I doubt that is understood...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Im sure most aint in archery for the money or big bucks!

Great to win a little cash for gas for next event.
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

^^^Query: If the majority of people participating in archery ain't doing it for money...then why is money paid / not paid / possibly paid to the minority such a big deal? Seems the important discussion should be directed to what is going to motivate the majority...and if the majority ain't motivated by the money, then the conversation needs to be re-focussed...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

VAN DAM said:


> I was talking about field14's post DB. I love winning money and I am working my way to the pros. I thought his long winded post was a little silly considering this thread was about who was paying what for semi-pro and not that they were'nt paying enough


I'm just now getting around to reading this thread. 

I'm not sure that I "like" Field14.... I know I don't like his delivery....or his placement. The thread was about who pays....not who should pay, who should be paid, or how much should be paid. Tom took it elsewhere....and his response belonged in a different thread. Not this one.

However, I get what he's saying. If we as a group want more money at the top, resources are limited so a consideration must be that there is less money paid out at the bottom. Not saying its the answer because I can argue both sides here but its a good discussion peice. Top down or bottom up growth? 

As for the comparisons and metaphors, IMO golf is a bad one. Put 3d on plane with sporting clays.... how many of you know top sporting clays shooters? Household names? Outside sponsors? Contingency? Other Mfg support? TV time? Tournament attendance? governing bodies?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Rolo said:


> ^^^Query: If the majority of people participating in archery ain't doing it for money...then why is money paid / not paid / possibly paid to the minority such a big deal? Seems the important discussion should be directed to what is going to motivate the majority...and if the majority ain't motivated by the money, then the conversation needs to be re-focussed...


IMO, most aren't in it for the money because most don't have an honest chance at the money....whether they've owned up to it or not. Most really are in it for the fun, the comradery, the socializing, the pursuit of improvement and increasingly true closer to the top of each class, the spirit of competition. 

You say motivate the majority......It basically equates to "boosting morale". What boosts morale? A level playing field. Fairly enforcing clear, well guided rules. Recognition. And yes........money. I know that I don't go looking for a check but when I get one, I know where the money is going......to fund the next one.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> However, I get what he's saying. If we as a group want more money at the top, resources are limited so a consideration must be that there is less money paid out at the bottom. Not saying its the answer because I can argue both sides here but its a good discussion peice. Top down or bottom up growth?
> 
> As for the comparisons and metaphors, IMO golf is a bad one. Put 3d on plane with sporting clays.... how many of you know top sporting clays shooters? Household names? Outside sponsors? Contingency? Other Mfg support? TV time? Tournament attendance? governing bodies?


The $20,000 questions. :darkbeer: And probably where the biggest conflict arises...where is the desired growth from? These 2 threads (contingency) focus on the top tier(s). I certainly see a legitimate reason to expand them. But the manufacturers need to expand the base...the associatioons need to expand both. Contingency is solely manufacturer determined. Their desire to expand the base, is greater than to expand the top. And, the base has a greater influence from hunting in the US, and target venues (excluding 3-D) in the European and Asian markets. That gets us back to both sides.

Ignoring your comparison to golf thing for a bit...I think it is a decent historical comparison because of where it was, and where it is now. Finding out the intracies of the transition is where the comparison becomes important. Golf was a fairly nische, rich white man's sport with little exposure for a very long time. It was fairly stagnant as far as growth was concerned after its initial boom until TW and a few other youngsters came along...but only because of the changes that had come before, could that second explosion occur. So for archery, not just the pros, or the AMs, discoveing the same intangibles seems important...

As for Sporting Clays...Does Tom Knapp count? :shade:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> IMO, most aren't in it for the money because most don't have an honest chance at the money....whether they've owned up to it or not. Most really are in it for the fun, the comradery, the socializing, the pursuit of improvement and increasingly true closer to the top of each class, the spirit of competition.
> 
> You say motivate the majority......It basically equates to "boosting morale". What boosts morale? A level playing field. Fairly enforcing clear, well guided rules. Recognition. And yes........money. I know that I don't go looking for a check but when I get one, I know where the money is going......to fund the next one.


Hey you won some cash this year. Congrats and every little bit won sure helps dont it?
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> IMO, most aren't in it for the money because most don't have an honest chance at the money....whether they've owned up to it or not. Most really are in it for the fun, the comradery, the socializing, the pursuit of improvement and increasingly true closer to the top of each class, the spirit of competition.
> 
> You say motivate the majority......It basically equates to "boosting morale". What boosts morale? A level playing field. Fairly enforcing clear, well guided rules. Recognition. And yes........money. I know that I don't go looking for a check but when I get one, I know where the money is going......to fund the next one.


Personally...I'm in it to win. If money comes with that, great. But my competitive drive is motivated by possible winning. But yeah, most know, whether the recognize it or not, ain't going to win (I am recognizing that the older I get too)...and yes, for all that other stuff too.

Boosting morale is only one part of the equation...with morale boosting also comes encouragement for others to join and participate...I also agree that in order to do that things such as 'level plating fields' and clear enforcement of fairly simple rules ought to be standard...which is the one thing I see and hear about 3-D more than any other format...doesn't matter if it is Joe or Pro...the rules, while pretty clear, always seem to lead to much interpretation. Might be the biggest nock perceived, imagined and real on 3-D (field falls into 1 of those 3) and maybe the biggest thing holding it back. The other that I have experienced is the relative 'jealousy' and 'suspicion that is prevelant in 3-D over the other venues (at least in my neck of the woods)...which is the finger-pointing and assumption game if the 'new' guy beats the 'established' guy...

As far as the money...It's been quite awhile since I have won any on the national level...priorities and geography...buyt regionally, it has also been quite awhile since I have walked away with it too...the clubs and orgs putting on the shoot need it more than I do...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Rolo said:


> The $20,000 questions. :darkbeer: And probably where the biggest conflict arises...where is the desired growth from? These 2 threads (contingency) focus on the top tier(s). I certainly see a legitimate reason to expand them. But the manufacturers need to expand the base...the associatioons need to expand both. Contingency is solely manufacturer determined. Their desire to expand the base, is greater than to expand the top. And, the base has a greater influence from hunting in the US, and target venues (excluding 3-D) in the European and Asian markets. That gets us back to both sides.
> 
> As for Sporting Clays...Does Tom Knapp count? :shade:


Good points...and a better "world" view than I was considering. I've said before that my GUESS is that Hoyt is looking at the international market (where 3d doesn't matter)more favorably now than the US Market (where 3d matters on an arguable scale). 




Daniel Boone said:


> Hey you won some cash this year. Congrats and every little bit won sure helps dont it?
> DB


A little and you are absolutely right. I'd even say it was a good investment for those who paid me.......it all stayed in the archery circle (bows, arrows, travel, etc) and I'll be working soon to prove to the IRS that even more went in than came out :shade: 

Come to think of it, I'm closing on a farm in a couple weeks. I wonder if I can write it off as a practice range? :angel4:



Rolo said:


> Boosting morale is only one part of the equation......


so what are the other parts? Based on your "motivating the majority" point, I'm guessing we've got to "mobilize the base" too.... How do we get them to come out? When this convo comes up the generic answer is local clubs/infrastructure. However, this is often where the new(er) shooters pick up the pencil-pushing exposure, fuzzy rules, etc and I think we'll soon have to face the reality that target prices are the barrier to entry/growth in the future.


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## rww1977 (Sep 23, 2012)

Ok so I am new to 3D archery I guess you could say. I shot some local tournaments and 2 ASA events about 8-9 years ago. Beginner classes and middle of the pack shooter at best. I'm looking to get back into it and hope to shoot a couple of ASA events in 2013. I've been following the threads on contingency hear on AT and just wanna share my view on it, as someone from the lower class. I think that if a manufacturer offers a contingency program that is it great for their shooters because I know that they all put in alot of work and if they're winning then I think they deserve some extra perks, but I also think that those perks should be kept at the top levels, say Pro/Semi-Pro, and not in the lower levels. I don't see anything wrong with those classes winning a cash price that is a percentage of entry/registration fees, but can't see why it should be the responsibility of the manufacturers to also pay out for non-Pro shooters. Ultimately though, it is all about big business, and as much as it sucks for the Hoyt Pros that are losing their contingency, I'm sure that Hoyt spent alot of time and money doing the data analysis that led to their decision. In the present economic state, I understand saving money wherever possible and don't blame them for that. I hope that the ones that are affected by it will find someone to pick up the loss of the contingencies and I certainly hope that it isn't a signal of things to come from others and a dwindling of the sport of 3D because I'm excited about getting back into it.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Good points...and a better "world" view than I was considering. I've said before that my GUESS is that Hoyt is looking at the international market (where 3d doesn't matter)more favorably now than the US Market (where 3d matters on an arguable scale).


I think there could be a lot of factors...but ROI is probably at or near the top. Looking at it in a prism...what return does Hoyt (or any other manufacturer) receive from its Pro staff (target/3-D/whatever)? Added to this is the whole contingency factor of that discussion. Business should get a ROI from its staff with or without contingency. Hoyt hasn't exactly emphasized 3-D in its over-all marketing push for several years anyway. (I am leaving out the contract side of things too...) But that whole thread 'irked' me only to the extent that all of a sudden "Hoyt was not supporting archery." Which as near as I can tell, is far, very far from the truth. Not offering contingency, but still offering product and contracts to individuals, as well as sponsoring archery in general (whether shoots, shows, hunting etc.) is a far cry from what was proclaimed (myopically IMO) by some.

If the focus is the international market...it seems like a pretty good focus to have. Population density.

There's also a huge cost of business increase that is coming, and I think any business is wise to be a little more furgal...that's all I'm saying on the politics. ukey: 



tmorelli said:


> I'll be working soon to prove to the IRS that even more went in than came out :shade:


A 'perk' of being pro...:shade:



tmorelli said:


> so what are the other parts? Based on your "motivating the majority" point, I'm guessing we've got to "mobilize the base" too.... How do we get them to come out? When this convo comes up the generic answer is local clubs/infrastructure. However, this is often where the new(er) shooters pick up the pencil-pushing exposure, fuzzy rules, etc and I think we'll soon have to face the reality that target prices are the barrier to entry/growth in the future.


Now we're at the $100,000 question...which like all things for me...much easier to identify the macro than the micro...

The biggest, and I believe best, influence, and also a brilliant business move, was the NASP. Huge, huge potential to increase participation across the board.

What I also find interestig is that the biggest influences on archery, and participation in the last year or so has had nutt'n to do with tournamnets or hunting, and everything to do with fictional movies. The number of people who picked up bows for the first time becasue of Hollywood is outstanding IMO...and I'm just talking about here in Wyoming.

So...How to keep them interested, and from loosing interest. Personally...and this is just a theory...de-emphasing 'winning' and contingency and 'staff' is the place to start. And I agree, some folks in the local clubs are the best examples of all that is wrong in archery, and also the worst...but that generally, IMO, goes back to the emphasis on winning and an instant gratification society (politics crept back in).

I disagree, at least to an extent on the price thing...archery is still the cheapest hobby I have (and I spend a bunch of money on it every year).

So mobilizing the base...re-emphasizing the 'fun' aspect, and de-emphasizing what's in it for me "oh, nothing, then I ain't shooting" aspect that has crept in...

I blame it all on 3-D :wink: it got really big really fast...a lot of money was available...much more so than before...expectations were created...they haven't been met...well, not really (all the blame), but there is a faint path... 

Here's the other think that irks me about the major 3-D orgs...they have decided to virtually eliminate 1/2 the country by geography. I'm not saying it doesn't make business sense, why would you have shoots where the population density is sparse...but how much growth do these orgs have from remaining in virtually the same geographis area from year to year? Yes, the same people return...maybe a few new ones, but if the market is expanded, maybe you get new people, who because the 'field was built' geographicall closer, may be more willing to go geographically farther to shoot in more shoots. 

You didn't answer me on Tom Knapp. :tongue:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Rolo said:


> You didn't answer me on Tom Knapp. :tongue:


And I meant to. Tom absolutely counts and kind of proves my point. To a casual sporting clays shooter like myself, there are no others and if he didn't do tricks and occasional wing shooting on the Outdoor Channel, I wouldn't know who he was...other than the time I saw him do an exhibition at a DU festival....but admittedly, if I hadn't seen him on TV, I wouldn't have watched the demo.

I bet 3d pros are similar to most bowhunters and casual/local 3ders. They probably don't know more than Levi depending on the crowd they run with. They might also associate with Justin Martin......because he has a hunting show with a 3d blip in the intro to every one. Are there other pro-archers with a show? Oh yeah, Dudley but he isn't actively competing anymore to my knowledge and never did much or any 3d that I know of???

So the real problem is that Hoyt's 3d pro's don't have a hunting show. Mathews inadvertantly owns that little niche too. (sarcasm intended)


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> So the real problem is that Hoyt's 3d pro's don't have a hunting show. Mathews inadvertantly owns that little niche too. (sarcasm intended)




So...have we resolved anything? Other than the Tom thing? :tongue:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Funny its amazing contingency's have been a pr oven success to manufactures.

Certianly glad manufactuers even small see the benefits. 

Believe Athens, Elite and just heard even Bowtech will have one this year. Good pro staff is all Bowtech needs to raise to the top.

Mathews and PSE and hopefully soon maybe Prime with the pro on staff now.

Ill support those who support archery and 3d. Sold allot of bows working in pro shops and even recommending shops around this state.

Thanks to those who are willing to give back to tournament archers.

Its earned and nothing given away.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> And I meant to. Tom absolutely counts and kind of proves my point. To a casual sporting clays shooter like myself, there are no others and if he didn't do tricks and occasional wing shooting on the Outdoor Channel, I wouldn't know who he was...other than the time I saw him do an exhibition at a DU festival....but admittedly, if I hadn't seen him on TV, I wouldn't have watched the demo.
> 
> I bet 3d pros are similar to most bowhunters and casual/local 3ders. They probably don't know more than Levi depending on the crowd they run with. They might also associate with Justin Martin......because he has a hunting show with a 3d blip in the intro to every one. Are there other pro-archers with a show? Oh yeah, Dudley but he isn't actively competing anymore to my knowledge and never did much or any 3d that I know of???
> 
> So the real problem is that Hoyt's 3d pro's don't have a hunting show. Mathews inadvertantly owns that little niche too. (sarcasm intended)


Funny how manufactuers still advertise T Bone a world champion. These manufactuers sure dont mind dropping all the wins they have and I know many take notice of that. Mathews has built a team concept and archers like to be part of a winner regardless if there just a hunter. Its the manly thing to be part of winner. Mathews has proven its wins and wins often. Tony, Dudley showed his Vegas target and said he shooting Vegas this year. Believe me when they win (advertise it) everyone likes a winner.
DB

George Dixon, Jeff Hopkins and now Levi sure bring allot of attention to Mathews over the years. Heck hardly anyone knew Mathews before Dixon won all three assc in one year. Folks ure took notice how well those solo cams shoot and tune easy.

Mathews just didnt accedently hit the tournament trail by accident. Everyone likes a winner, its the american way. Archers who win the contengcy are winners. Its earned. 
DB
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Ill support those who support archery and 3d.


Can you explain how a company reducing contingency (not eliminating it) is "not supporting archery and 3d"? I'm really trying to understand where this sentiment comes from, considering all the money that that company funnels to archery and 3d...



Daniel Boone said:


> Thanks to those who are willing to give back to tournament archers.


Can you also explain how a company that provides equipment and other benefits to individuals through contract and also contingency (though reduced) is not "willing to give back to tournament archers"? Also trying to understand this sentiment because from what I know, they are actually giving back to tournament archers...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Can you explain how a company reducing contingency (not eliminating it) is "not supporting archery and 3d"? I'm really trying to understand where this sentiment comes from, considering all the money that that company funnels to archery and 3d...
> 
> 
> 
> Can you also explain how a company that provides equipment and other benefits to individuals through contract and also contingency (though reduced) is not "willing to give back to tournament archers"? Also trying to understand this sentiment because from what I know, they are actually giving back to tournament archers...


Who ever said they didn't give back. Were talking about contingency's. Something earned and not given too. Do what is almost impossible for most. Get on the podium. Young archers devoted there life to get there and bleed for a manufacture selling bows and promoting. Then after 15 or more years they reach the top of there game only to be said sorry not any more after years of years advertising we pay for success. I don't like it, these guys are friends and it only effects a small majority because honestly not many will ever reach that goal. Manufactures right to make the call. Myself and many who have supported them now must make a decision they thought they would never have to make. I do like when a Manufacture stays in it and doesn't start something then jerks it out from under the guys who got there. Just my opinion. I do know the sentiments of many 3d pros as well about this as well. I doubt they were involved or ask what they thought. Ill still congratulate any Hoyt pro that wins. Ill even recommend a Hoyt bow
when asked my thoughts. But I certainly don't have to like it!
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Good pro staff is all Bowtech needs to raise to the top.


We're going to disagree on that one til the cows come home! 


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Money to Pros trinkets to amateurs sounds like the NFAA, NFAA=No F'ing Archers Anymore


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Who ever said they didn't give back.


Well, when someone says this:

*"Ill support those who support archery and 3d."* (repeatedly)

They are saying by implication that the company DOESN'T give back.

When someone says this:

*"Thanks to those who are willing to give back to tournament archers."*

They are saying by implication that the company DOESN'T give back.

So the answer to your question is...YOU.



Daniel Boone said:


> Were talking about contingency's. Something earned and not given too. Do what is almost impossible for most. Get on the podium.


Contingencies...yeas, they are "earned" based on winning, and winning only. All the other support they receive is based on what they did to get there...all that hard work and whatnot, assuming they are on staff to begin with. If they are not on staff, and they win, they still get the contingency, and they may earn their way onto the staff.

Contingency is somewhat akin to gambling...win, and you get house money...don't win, and your only out what you brought to the table.



Daniel Boone said:


> Young archers devoted there life to get there and bleed for a manufacture selling bows and promoting. Then after 15 or more years they reach the top of there game only to be said sorry not any more after years of years advertising we pay for success. Myself and many who have supported them now must make a decision they thought they would never have to make. I do like when a Manufacture stays in it and doesn't start something then jerks it out from under the guys who got there.


Were any of these young archers given a promise that contingency money would always be there for them? Taking it to a general employment level...is any employee promised that their salary / job will always be there for them?

And again...the "not any more" statement is just flat out wrong and a misrepresentation of reality and the truth. The contingency possibility remains, just not what it was last year, and not what it as in 2007. Misrepresentation of reality, just like implying that a company does not support archery or tournament archers is a credibility problem to the discussion...



Daniel Boone said:


> I do know the sentiments of many 3d pros as well about this as well. I doubt they were involved or ask what they thought. Ill still congratulate any Hoyt pro that wins. Ill even recommend a Hoyt bow
> when asked my thoughts. But I certainly don't have to like it!
> DB


One might ask what the Pros asked whatever manufacturer about the issue too? One might ask, if the pros have signed contracts for 2013, why they didn't ask...and possibly what they are going to do about their signed contracts because they didn't ask any questions...

Interesting though...all this talk about supportiung archery...there is undoubtedly one company that has done more to support archery than probably all the rest combined...yet that same company is one of the most criticized companies on AT...you included...why would a manufacturer support archery, if the people who are being supported are so critical?

Yes, archers...what a fickle and hypocritical bunch we are...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Bubba Dean said:


> Money to Pros trinkets to amateurs sounds like the NFAA, NFAA=No F'ing Archers Anymore


I have big plans for this in the future :beer:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Well, when someone says this:
> 
> *"Ill support those who support archery and 3d."* (repeatedly)
> 
> ...


Please do tell me this one manufacture!:darkbeer: Sense you ask I did ask today what they were told from Hoyt.

Was amazingly a surprising qoute even for me to comprehend from such a manufacture. 

I personally plan to ask and confirm this is true at trade show from guys at Hoyt. Shocking! Thread would most likely be locked immediately if repeated.
DB
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Please do tell me this one manufacture!:darkbeer: Sense you ask I did ask today what they were told from Hoyt.
> 
> Was amazingly a surprising qoute even for me to comprehend from such a manufacture.
> 
> ...


wEll, you should be able to figurE it out yourself...

What...Hoyt didn't realize/recognize a ROI from 3-D?

Wasn't that the surmise of the original thread...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> wEll, you should be able to figurE it out yourself...
> 
> What...Hoyt didn't realize/recognize a ROI from 3-D?
> 
> Wasn't that the surmise of the original thread...



Certianly seem how they have put it out there for everyone to realize. Often reap what you sew!


DB
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Let's talk about the way a lot of this "contingency" thing started...way back. I think that Bear Archery went to a program back in the first year of the new NFAA target face...1976 or so. The one described below is from my personal experience from 1977.

The way this worked was really quite simple. You went to the BEAR shooting booth with you BEAR bow (any model, didn't matter, and neither did the division you shot in). You signed up before any arrows had been shot in the competition (strictly enforced for obvious reasons). When the entire tournament was over, you brought in your signed/witnessed scorecard and they put your TOTAL SCORE on their master list.

Then, when the final scores were tallied, whomever shot the highest total score...joe or pro, didn't matter...that 1st place person, male or female, that didn't matter either....won A carved wooden jewelry box stuffed with 200 Silver Dollars (real ones) AND a nice TEAM BEAR shooting jacket.
2nd place (which I not only won the BEAR stuff, but 2nd overall at this tournament) got a carved box stuffed with $100 silver dollars and the Team Bear shooting jacket.
3rd place got a carved box stuffed with $50 Silver dollars and the Team Bear Shooting jacket.
4-6 received $25 gift certificates for BEAR products, but no shooting jacket.

This mattered not whether you were Joe or Pro...and oftentimes, including the case above, the PRO wouldn't necessarily win the top prize. I was beat out by two points for the $200, but hey...when you miss on 3 out of the 4 bunnie targets in the tournament and one on a 15 yarder...you don't deserve to win, hahaha.

Anyways, other manufacturers did this...BUT...you had to be shooting their product and you competed for that "stuff" whether joe or pro

Many of the other manuf did something similar, but it only lasted a short time until some of the 'upper crust' starting howling and moaning that...it wasn't enough and wanted more, especially for the upper crust shooters. Some people, I guess didn't like sometimes losing out to a woman or a "joe", or heaven forbid someone in BHFS...there was no separation of divisions, it was based on overall total score.

Too bad that died, because it was fun...and you competed for "that piece of the pie" only with others shooting the same brand of equipment...and didn't worry about 1st place OVERALL for the entire shooting match the only one gettin any "contingency" the way it is now daze.

That is how it used to be...and was, too, abandoned when people cried and moaned that "it wasn't enough" and wanted MORE...
I still have that hand-carved jewelry box, the Team Bear jacket...and the "best" of the collectible Silver Dollars...from 1977 even..

Kind of a fun concept...everyone shooting a particular brand of equipment shoots against every one else shooting that same brand of equipment for the prizes, and you don't have to be the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd OVERALL for the entire shooting match to get there. That is "contingency" and a reward for shooting that BRAND of equipment. 
field14 (Tom D).


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Field, PSE must have coppied that from bear they ran the same program in the early 2000's(I think thats the time frame) with nice payouts and you only shot against others who shot PSE. But that gave way when they went to their new 3D pro staff. I personally enjoyed and won my share of it, but their company seem to really take off after they introduced the pro staff, plus their bows started really making jumps in technology. Was it the staff or the new bowline or did the staff help bring about the new stuff I don't know. But they sure have pushed their way back to the top with the others and they've really put a lot of $$$ into their staff and advertising. I think it comes down to those mfg's willing to put the money into archery thru staff(3D, Hunting, etc.) and advertising are going to be at the top. I guess the old saying you have to spend money to make money is true just look at Mathews no one advertises or has more staff than them and love'em or hate'm everyone knows their name. Being that most top end equipment out there is close to equal people are going to go with the one that pays or supports them(personally) the best, with the exception of the very few. We can argue til the cows come home but when it comes right down to it most of these things are personal preference and opionon. I we all thought and felt the same way about these things it would be easy for mfg's to come up with a program that made everyone happy.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

okarcher said:


> Field, PSE must have coppied that from bear they ran the same program in the early 2000's(I think thats the time frame) with nice payouts and you only shot against others who shot PSE. But that gave way when they went to their new 3D pro staff. I personally enjoyed and won my share of it, but their company seem to really take off after they introduced the pro staff, plus their bows started really making jumps in technology. Was it the staff or the new bowline or did the staff help bring about the new stuff I don't know. But they sure have pushed their way back to the top with the others and they've really put a lot of $$$ into their staff and advertising. I think it comes down to those mfg's willing to put the money into archery thru staff(3D, Hunting, etc.) and advertising are going to be at the top. I guess the old saying you have to spend money to make money is true just look at Mathews no one advertises or has more staff than them and love'em or hate'm everyone knows their name. Being that most top end equipment out there is close to equal people are going to go with the one that pays or supports them(personally) the best, with the exception of the very few. We can argue til the cows come home but when it comes right down to it most of these things are personal preference and opionon. I we all thought and felt the same way about these things it would be easy for mfg's to come up with a program that made everyone happy.


Alpine did something similar a few years ago also, payouts for the highest scoring Alpine.

PSE came out with the Xforce first, their staff program took off the following 2 and 3 years after that.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

reylamb said:


> Alpine did something similar a few years ago also, payouts for the highest scoring Alpine.
> 
> PSE came out with the Xforce first, their staff program took off the following 2 and 3 years after that.



Yes but the staff is the biggest reason for the changes in the engineering designs and cams. One of the staffs jobs is to take the bows that the manufacture has engineered and give feed back for improvements. Most of the engineers can give reasons why things should work the way they do but its tested and improved on by idea from the staff. Without the staff the most of the changes wouldnt be made therefore IMO the manufactures wouldnt sale as many bows. 

So yes the x force cam out before the majority of there staff but the staff is part of the reasons the x force has been so successful.
Jame


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Rolo said:


> Well, when someone says this:
> 
> *"Ill support those who support archery and 3d."* (repeatedly)
> 
> ...


I wish you were in the shoes as some of the archers who do this for a living or one that was effected by it. I bet You would have a different outlook on this contingency thing.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Jame said:


> I wish you were in the shoes as some of the archers who do this for a living or one that was effected by it. I bet You would have a different outlook on this contingency thing.


Why does it have to be archery? I understand contingency quite well...whether or not it is specific to archery.

I'll ask you the same questions:

Did Hoyt ever promise you that its contingency payment was going to continue forever?

If you signed a contract with Hoyt this year (2013) did you ask about contingency and possible changes before you signed it?

If you did sign the contract and asked, and were given the actual answer, then you knew.

If you did sign the contract and asked and were given false information, then you got a claim and a right.

If you did sign the contract, and didn't ask...are you going to hnor the contract?

I get that it 'sucks'. I get that you feel let-down, maybe even betrayed. What I don't get is how someone, not you, completely unaffected by this issue, can leap to the position of how Hoyt is "no longer supporting archery". A completely untrue statement.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Jame said:


> I wish you were in the shoes as some of the archers who do this for a living or one that was effected by it. I bet You would have a different outlook on this contingency thing.


Jame saw his scores. Wont ever happen. Really sorry to hear a manufacture not atleast offering a contingency worth the price of a pro like you. Damn shame you saved your family at the time you were at your best indoor and still hold the Oklahoma record for pro and that's saying allot. Right call and something tells me your going to be fine and some other manufacturer getting a darn good pro.
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Jame saw his scores. Wont ever happen. Really sorry to hear a manufacture not atleast offering a contingency worth the price of a pro like you. Damn shame you saved your family at the time you were at your best indoor and still hold the Oklahoma record for pro and that's saying allot. Right call and something tells me your going to be fine and some other manufacturer getting a darn good pro.
> DB


Scores? What Scores? Never claimed to be anything I wasn't...and currently that's somewhere between has been and LOFT...but you sure seem to be consumed with me...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Scores? What Scores? Never claimed to be anything I wasn't...and currently that's somewhere between has been and LOFT...but you sure seem to be consumed with me...


Dont think I was talking to you. Talking to a good friend and trying to be understanding what he going through!

Hardly consumed by you. 
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Dont think I was talking to you. Talking to a good friend and trying to be understanding what he going through!
> 
> Hardly consumed by you.
> DB


But about is an entirely different thing...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> But about is an entirely different thing...


Try to lighten up. Your the only one here busted Jame down. Most of us understand 100% what he feeling, we also know he knows more about Pro archery and 3d than you. We all know him and you dont. I know everthing about his career with Hoyt. 

He one of the few good guys that actually comes to the forum to help others. Not hard to understand why others dont!

You will never know what it feels to finally get there the top of pro archery to only to be told were no longer supporting you!

DB
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Try to lighten up. Your the only one here busted Jame down. Most of us understand 100% what he feeling, we also know he knows more about Pro archery and 3d than you. We all know him and you dont. I know everthing about his career with Hoyt.
> 
> He one of the few good guys that actually comes to the forum to help others. Not hard to understand why others dont!
> 
> ...


And I haven't based him on iota...and recognize that it would suck to be in his shoes. Just like it sucks when Joe down the street loses his job because of something outside of his control. Probably sucks a little more for Joe though...


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I would expect Jame to drop hoyt and move on after the way they have treated them, people look u to shooters like jame, in one of the best shootdowns of all time and walked away the winner shooting against the best in the buisness, I understand and respect you jame do what you think is right and keep on shootin!


Country


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3Dblackncamo said:


> I would expect Jame to drop hoyt and move on after the way they have treated them, people look u to shooters like jame, in one of the best shootdowns of all time and walked away the winner shooting against the best in the buisness, I understand and respect you jame do what you think is right and keep on shootin!
> 
> 
> Country


Exactly and he just being honest. Plenty of others pros feel the same way. Even those who arent shooting 3d. Whats next cut contingency for them as well? Maybe they realize target archery not worth the bother.

DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

3Dblackncamo said:


> I would expect Jame to drop hoyt and move on after the way they have treated them, people look u to shooters like jame, in one of the best shootdowns of all time and walked away the winner shooting against the best in the buisness, I understand and respect you jame do what you think is right and keep on shootin!
> 
> 
> Country


Hey, if he can find a better deal, and is not obligated otherwise, wouldn't blame him a bit. Nor anyone else...nor any company that thinks they can get a better deal, or better ROI in other areas. Not sure why the rules don't apply the same both ways...


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

We all don't like it.to watch it take a step backwards instead of forward


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rolo said:


> Hey, if he can find a better deal, and is not obligated otherwise, wouldn't blame him a bit. Nor anyone else...nor any company that thinks they can get a better deal, or better ROI in other areas. Not sure why the rules don't apply the same both ways...


Once again you just don't get it. Archers are friends and we all know exactly how hard it is to get there for a Pro. 

We get it you support and back Hoyt in this call. Hoyt can drop contingency for ever pro they got. Ill still side and understand the pros side. 
DB


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

I have been lurking on these 3-d contengency threads mostly to stay in touch with what is going on with the ASA and my friends that compete in it. Living out west now where 3-d is pretty much non-existent I still know how much it means to many "pay-check to pay-check" archers to get a little $$ when they rock the house. 

I have to say it is entertaining to see field 14 and Rolo (WYO state NFAA director....right?) being so wraped up in this 3-d discussion. Have either of you ever shot an ASA or even IBO sanctioned event before? Don't mean to hi-jack, just wanting a little insight to keep things in perspective.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Once again you just don't get it. Archers are friends and we all know exactly how hard it is to get there for a Pro.
> 
> We get it you support and back Hoyt in this call. Hoyt can drop contingency for ever pro they got. Ill still side and understand the pros side.
> DB


Do you /did you work in a union? That would explain a few things.

Let me make it perfectly clear to you, hopefully in such a way that you cannot contrive what I am saying into something so unrealistic it defies logic:

I support any individial's right and any companies right to make decisions that they believe are in their best interest. I believe that the results and consequences of those decisions are to be their to rejoice in, or reap what the "sew". (as you put it). That clear enough for you?




Now...when people (you) make absolutely false statements, why shouldn't someone say something about it?

Oh...when archer A decides to change to manufacturer Z because they think it benefits them, you certainly hear people say that A is doing it for the money. Probably true, and there is nutt'n wrong with that. But what about all the support that company B...his previous sponsor...gave to him...yep, leaving them high and dry for a personal business decision.

So a manufacturer makes a business decision that they believe is in their benefit. There's nutt'n wrong with that. That DB is what I get...what you are espousing is rhetoric that can often be labeled with a big ol' "L" word...

Shall we even go back to Levi/PSE gate? People critical of a manufacturer because it had the gall to hold someone to their personal promise (allegedly)...nonsense.

So again, if Jame or any of Hoyts pro staff decides to change sponsors over this because they think they can get a better deal, and are not already bound to a contract, best of luck to them, and I don't blame them a bit. If Hoyt ends up in a better position as a result of this, well then they made the right decision for them. If they don't, then they/it will live with the results.

It is and always has been the American way...this notion that corporations cannot change things and somehow owe not even employees for something, is akin to the argument that the government owes me something because I'm breathing.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

huntelk said:


> I have been lurking on these 3-d contengency threads mostly to stay in touch with what is going on with the ASA and my friends that compete in it. Living out west now where 3-d is pretty much non-existent I still know how much it means to many "pay-check to pay-check" archers to get a little $$ when they rock the house.
> 
> I have to say it is entertaining to see field 14 and Rolo (WYO state NFAA director....right?) being so wraped up in this 3-d discussion. Have either of you ever shot an ASA or even IBO sanctioned event before? Don't mean to hi-jack, just wanting a little insight to keep things in perspective.


ASA on a State level...yes. ASA on a National level no. IBO on State and National Level yes. NABH yes.

And your point is what again?


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

Rolo said:


> ASA on a State level...yes. ASA on a National level no. IBO on State and National Level yes. NABH yes.
> 
> And your point is what again?


Like I said, just gaining perspective. It's kind of like knowing a little about the author of a book before reading it. Usually I don't even read posts by members that don't fill out their names on their profile, but I had put 2 and 2 together and was curious if you were in fact the Wyo. NFAA director...which you neither confirmed nor denied :wink:


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

huntelk said:


> Like I said, just gaining perspective. It's kind of like knowing a little about the author of a book before reading it. Usually I don't even read posts by members that don't fill out their names on their profile, but I had put 2 and 2 together and was curious if you were in fact the Wyo. NFAA director...which you neither confirmed nor denied :wink:


Whether I am or am not has what relevance to the issue exactly? Does my opinion magically change if theis same decision happens in the target realm? 

Wnat to imply I'm some kind of 3-D hater...well if you had been following along, you should have noticed, or at least got the impression that would love it if the IBO or ASA cared about the western 1/2 of the country...especially the ASA (a well run organization). But, Cabelas tried that with the NABH, and it diodn't make business sense. NABH 'merged' into the ASA, and wa la...national 3-D shoots in the midwest were kaput.

Personally does that suck for me...yep sure does. Do I understand why, and the business decision that was made...yep, sure do. Have I ever gone around and said the ASA or IBO "doesn't support archery" because they made a business decision that it wouldn't work in the west/mid-west?

So...now you have my perspective...I actually want archery, all forms to flourish. I really don't care which org hs their name attached to it, or what the target is, as long as its all good.

What's your insinuation...


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

I'm not insinuating your motives, I am just curious. Like I said before, I usually ignore posts of people whom express strong opinions/ideas but hide behind the keyboard by not filling out their profiles.

I have not expressed any opinions that could be construed as opposing or for that matter even assuming what your motives are. For the record, my desires for archery as a whole mirror yours. I love any part of the sport that includes loosing an arrow from the string.

I also like to know who I am reading/talking to, which is what led me to investigate your identity. Take it as a compliment, if you were a babbling blowhard I would not have wasted my time.


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## JUSS HUNT (Feb 2, 2011)

U sure know how to get a rise van dam . happy shootin !


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

huntelk said:


> I'm not insinuating your motives, I am just curious. Like I said before, I usually ignore posts of people whom express strong opinions/ideas but hide behind the keyboard by not filling out their profiles.
> 
> I have not expressed any opinions that could be construed as opposing or for that matter even assuming what your motives are. For the record, my desires for archery as a whole mirror yours. I love any part of the sport that includes loosing an arrow from the string.
> 
> I also like to know who I am reading/talking to, which is what led me to investigate your identity. Take it as a compliment, if you were a babbling blowhard I would not have wasted my time.


Funny...I don't look at profiles unless its classifieds related...haven't looked at yours either...but ain't hidingeither. I would say the exact same thing I have posted in this thread in person...

Want to know who you're talking to...if its that important...send a message.


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## MSCJEM (Sep 14, 2004)

Ok has anyone confirmed who is paying contingency in the semi pro class?


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Bear did the same thing back in the 2000's and look where they are today. I am sure that 3D will survive without Hoyt even though Hoyt may not think so. I am also confidant that the Hoyt Pros will be able to shoot another brand of bow just as well as they do the Hoyt.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Jame said:


> I wish you were in the shoes as some of the archers who do this for a living or one that was effected by it. I bet You would have a different outlook on this contingency thing.


actually it is not just in archery anymore alot of peoples jobs are cutting back in one way or another.Hell I went from work 60 to 70 hrs a week to 40 now tell me that is not a company taking away from my family.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

MSCJEM said:


> Ok has anyone confirmed who is paying contingency in the semi pro class?


Get back on topic 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Get back on topic
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The instruction to being "on topic" on AT..

View attachment 1530689


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Get back on topic
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Tony have you decided what class your going to move too this year?
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Tony have you decided what class your going to move too this year?
> DB


Most likely K50. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

JawsDad said:


> The instruction to being "on topic" on AT..
> 
> View attachment 1530689


That looks like Kansas City from the viewpoint of my Garmin. 

recalculating....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 1tex3d (Jun 13, 2002)

I wonder if there has ever been a thread started on Archery Talk where the original posters question was actually answered??? You guys crack me up


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

1tex3d said:


> I wonder if there has ever been a thread started on Archery Talk where the original posters question was actually answered??? You guys crack me up


That's what PM's are for 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

1tex3d said:


> I wonder if there has ever been a thread started on Archery Talk where the original posters question was actually answered??? You guys crack me up


Good luck Danny in 2013. Its all good buddy!
DB


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## 1tex3d (Jun 13, 2002)

Thanks DB! We'll see ya around this year... But seriously y'all keep this up, it's definitely cheap entertainment :moviecorn


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

1tex3d said:


> Thanks DB! We'll see ya around this year... But seriously y'all keep this up, it's definitely cheap entertainment :moviecorn


 Glad Tommy shooting a Mathews!

Mathews and Elite pay contingencys. Maybe someone will chime in on PSE if they pay.

Athens has a contingency as well. New Breed posted here in 3d forrum and manufactuers.
DB


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