# A new appreciation for Elivanes (and Gas Pro's too)



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

After testing and competing with the new AAE Wav's - a vane I really, really hoped would once and for all finally solve the "mylar vs. plastic vane" recurve fletching dilemma - I now have an even greater appreciation for Elivanes. And to a degree, Gas Pros too.

I've shot pretty good scores with the Wav's, including a win and a new state field record. But within a matter of weeks, I'm already experiencing wrinkled and punctured Wav's that need to be replaced. That is unfortunate, as these are glued on and replacing them is a major PITA. The previous plastic vanes I've used (AAE Plastifletch Max and Flex-Fletch) never needed replacing, no matter how much I tried to beat them up. They were too heavy, but they were a one-and-done fletching solution for those who need a zero maintenance vane. 

For the past year and a half, I've shot Elivane S3's on my competition arrows - a period of the most intensive shooting I've done in years due to training for the 2nd stage of the 2012 Olympic trials, the state field event that followed, and my normal "need to shoot arrows" behavior at home. I suspect those S3's have been shot about 1000 shots per arrow, or 11,000 shots in the past 18 months. The only time I've had to replace a Elivane was when a few missed the bale (forgot to move the sight) and I think ONE that got chewed up from contact. Other than that, 8 of the 11 arrows have never been refletched since February of 2012. 

Combine that durability with the fact that all my personal best outdoor scores have been achieved using Elivanes, and the ability to fletch by hand, in the field, and that's a pretty darn good 1, 2, 3 combination that I don't think any other vane can beat.

My daughter is currently shooting Gas Pro's on her Medallion XR 1500's and they are holding up great and grouping great for her. I'll know more about those by the end of the year (kids her age can sure be tough on vanes) but so far, so good on those too. They are stiffer than the Elivanes, and a bit heavier too, but they look pretty durable.

I'll be replacing my chewed up AAE Wav's gradually with some Elivane P3's (fletched with max offset) and I hope to get as good a result with these as I had with the S3's last year. I'll post updates as I continue to test.


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

Looking forward to it.
Ted


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

John,

You should really try the Impulse vanes. Not necessarily for you but to recommend them for your JOAD archers. You are going to be replacing the WAVs anyway so why not give these a try? You could even just stick them on over small wraps for a trial.

-Grant


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Been shooting the GasPro's for a couple of months now, my first foray in spinnies. I had bought these from Lancaster from their clearance bin before they officially started carrying them. With a package of hard shields as well as the soft parabolics I like the flight that I am getting with both. The shield cut were fletched with a couple of degrees of offset to test. The parabolics were set up straight and are a slightly higher profile at least in the softs. I liked the grouping at 18 mtr a little better with the shield cuts and seem to hold up better to arrow impacts than the parabolics. Have cracked several of the parabolcs due to cold weather and arrow impacts in sub freezing weather as well as 70 degrees plus weather. This weekend I moved the backyard range around and can now stand on the street curb and reach out to 30mtr. While shooting Saturday in gusty 15-20mph winds the shield cut hard GP's were kicking pretty bad in the wind but self correcting to still group quite well. The parabolic softs were flying noticeably better with no noticeable kick and grouping about the same. Arrow impacts were 2" higher at 30mtr with shield cut vs. parabolics due to higher profile and perhaps softness. Will like to see the difference at greater distances between my two samples. Top three shields, bottom three parabolics.


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## gkonduris (Sep 10, 2007)

Subscribed to this thread. I expect my target riser and limbs to arrive hopefully the end of June. Since I'm new to FITA style shooting, threads like this are very helpful. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## LBinTN (Sep 30, 2010)

Well let me just say a big thank you to all of you'uns for posting your results, it sure helps us less experienced ones make some more educated decisions.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

With few replacements left in the bag for the parabolics I tore went to Lancaster site, they do not carry the same as I bought from them. May be looking for another source soon. Would be nice to try the different profiles and stiffness they make. The parabolics I have are the recurve efficient in soft, shields are not hard as previously thought but medium field efficient perhaps more for the compound.

www.gasprovanes.com/pagina_profiles.html

www.gasprovanes.com/pagina_media.html


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

i would like to try some elivanes soon. do you have an offset to the S3s or you just fletch them straight?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My S3's were fletched straight. They are big enough with enough built-in helical that I don't think you need to add any offset to them on the shaft. Unfortunately, the S3's are hard to find here in the U.S. Mine were a trial pack sent to me by Elivanes, and they worked very, very well for me both at stage 2 of the 2012 Olympic trials (shooting a 341 at 70M with them on day 2) and later setting two state field records with them, including a 355 2nd day total. So far, those S3's are my "gold standard" if you'll pardon the pun.

In testing, the AAE Wav's were actually keeping pace with the Elivane S3's. However, as I said, the Wav's are not handling contact very well. Tight groupings are giving me wrinkled vanes that need to be replaced because they don't group with the rest any longer. That is a problem since I glued those Wav's on the shaft, not wanting to add the weight of a wrap to the nock end of the arrow.

This afternoon, the wind was VERY gusty and I had a chance to shoot the Wav's and heavily offset Elivane P3's side by side at 60 meters. I cannot tell you which grouped better. One end, I'd have 3 10's with the Elivanes, the next end I'd have 3 10's with the Wav's. I'd call it a draw. 

And if it's a draw, then the tie goes to the Elivane IMO, because they are easier to re-fletch or repair in the field, and they have proven to me they are very durable, and will require very little refletching anyway.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thank you very much for sharing your experience.
Not wanting to highjack this thread I have a question.
Any recommendation for FITA filed archery? 
Shooting up to 55 yds with 37# bow.
It looks like shield would work.
Thanks
Martin


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Field = the best grouping combination from 15 meters in. Beyond 15 meters, there is so little difference in any vane I've tried that it's not worth worry about. But turning 4's into 6's at 10 and 15 meters, esp. on the 20cm face, is a huge deal. It's a top priority for my setups.


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## Houngan (Oct 19, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Field = the best grouping combination from 15 meters in. Beyond 15 meters, there is so little difference in any vane I've tried that it's not worth worry about. But turning 4's into 6's at 10 and 15 meters, esp. on the 20cm face, is a huge deal. It's a top priority for my setups.


Thanks for this, I thought I was broken because the short shots gave me more trouble than the long shots (I've only shot two field courses.) Is there a situation where bareshaft at 20 yards would group with fletched shafts, but the fletched shafts are kicking at the short distances, seemingly fletching-right? Would it possibly be vane/riser impact?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not necessarily. Could be centershot. 

For me personally, I have about a 5 degree cant to my bow (always have) so I have my sight adjusted counter to that angle as much as possible, and I still have to adjust my windage from 10 meters to 60 because of that cant angle. So, it may just be that when you run your aperture to the top of your sight, it's further left or right than it would be at the middle of the sight.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thank you very much John!
For short range you have two options: aim off to the corresponding side or change alignement of the string.
JMHO as I shot barebow stringwalking.
Thanks 
Martin


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

beleg2 said:


> Thank you very much John!
> For short range you have two options: aim off to the corresponding side or change alignement of the string.
> JMHO as I shot barebow stringwalking.
> Thanks
> Martin


Martin,

Have you tried adjusting your plunger for the close shots?

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just adjust my sight windage for the 10M shots. I marked my windage block specifically for the shorter shots in field.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Grant,
I tryed it too, but it is simpler to move point of aim, do not want to change tunning.
I do most of my shooting at homa at less than 15 meters, so I shot short distances much better.

John,
Field, m or H?

Thanks
Martin


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

m or H? I don't follow.

So, getting a tad frustrated - in a good way...

Elivanes are shooting GREAT at distances of 30M or more. They are shooting VERY WELL inside that, but the AAE Wav's are kicking their butts at 10 meters - a VERY important distance in field on that 20cm birdie face.

Shot 3 consecutive 18's at 10M with the AAE Wav's, but a 17, 16 and 16 with the Elivanes. Grrrrrrr. 

At 50 meters, they are neck and neck, with the Elivanes probably having a slight edge. Interestingly enough, the Wav's impact slightly higher at 50M.


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## FlyingWatchmake (Apr 15, 2012)

So shoot WAV's at short and Eli's at long ;-) ... I think that's allowed... Though does mean having spares of each etc.. (More of the WAV's though)


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Sorry John for the confusion, 
I found that Field Gaspros are offered as H (hard) and M (medium) but could not find Elivanes Field, are you talking about Elivan S?
Thank you very much.

Two different arrows?
Colombian representatives use two different arrows at the 3rd South American Field shot (2012).
Do you have any information about this?
Thanks

Martin


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FlyingWatchmake said:


> So shoot WAV's at short and Eli's at long ;-) ... I think that's allowed... Though does mean having spares of each etc.. (More of the WAV's though)


The thought actually crossed my mind yesterday evening... After about the third perfect 18 I shot at 10M with the AAE's. 

Then I dropped back and shot my 50M bale and put three in the gold on a 60cm face with the Elivanes... 

Decisions, decisions...

beleg2, I have S3's on one set of arrows that I shot all last year, but the ones I'm testing now are Elivane P3's. There is no "H" and "M" with Elivanes like there is for the Gas Pro.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

I am starting to have some wrinkles in my WAV vanes too and they are glues straight onto the shaft. I suspect that if I keep on grouping well with them, they will need replacing soon.

No one sells S3s in the US so far so Im thinking of getting Gas Pros instead because ordering overseas will be a pain if I end up liking them



limbwalker said:


> My S3's were fletched straight. They are big enough with enough built-in helical that I don't think you need to add any offset to them on the shaft. Unfortunately, the S3's are hard to find here in the U.S. Mine were a trial pack sent to me by Elivanes, and they worked very, very well for me both at stage 2 of the 2012 Olympic trials (shooting a 341 at 70M with them on day 2) and later setting two state field records with them, including a 355 2nd day total. So far, those S3's are my "gold standard" if you'll pardon the pun.
> 
> In testing, the AAE Wav's were actually keeping pace with the Elivane S3's. However, as I said, the Wav's are not handling contact very well. Tight groupings are giving me wrinkled vanes that need to be replaced because they don't group with the rest any longer. That is a problem since I glued those Wav's on the shaft, not wanting to add the weight of a wrap to the nock end of the arrow.
> 
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm getting better results from Elivanes than GasPro's on my arrows. For my daughter's little Medallion XR 1500's, the Gas Pro's work just fine though. They just don't provide enough stability for my big NPX 450's, and the P3 Elivanes only will if I put extreme offset on them. They seem to be grouping as well as my S3's did on my other arrows.

I'd go with the Elivane P3's with 5-7 degrees of offset to them.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

K1 carries both profiles in either Eli, GP. I am still searching for someone who carries the GP Recurve efficient in soft as I am down to four spares, they are said to be better with <40# limbs.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I'd go with the Elivane P3's with 5-7 degrees of offset to them.


Question for you John...I'm using Spinnies right now (or am in the process of moving all my arrows to them) fletched straight with no offset and am considering ordering SW Elites on my next round of wings. I see you like a lot of offset, is that simply due to your very long and heavy arrows? I haven't seen any differences between the set I have fletched straight with wings and another set I have that has 2-3 defrees of offset, so i stuck with straight for simplicity sake. 

Are mylar wings supposed to be straight, offset, or is it dependant on each individual shooters needs?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Depends on the individual arrow, and the vane you're using on it, I think.

I fletched my S3's straight, as they have plenty of surface area already. But the P3's are pretty small and I think benefit from being fletched offset to offer more surface area. 

I doubt there's a lot of difference between a larger vane being fletched straight, and a smaller vane being fletched with a lot of offset. They both will produce similar amounts of drag.

But I'm no JoeT on this one, and the Frangilli's have surely studied this to death.

I also still believe that a well shot arrow is the best way to score well, irrespective of equipment setup. So it's not useful to obsess over these things IMO.

Once I see a fletching solution will group well, then I just focus on ME being the weakest link and try to shoot every arrow as well as I can.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I should add that my admiration for Elivanes comes mainly from their durability vs. spin wings, while maintaining excellent performance characteristics. Spin wings are still the gold standard, but for those of us who don't want to, or have time to, do constant maintenance on them, I believe Elivanes offer the same performance with much more durability.

John


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

ordered some S3s. i look forward to trying these and see how they group for me outdoors.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So I had a perfectly calm afternoon today, 92 degrees and sunny. Dead calm. Great opportunity to shoot my Elivane P3's vs. the Wav's...

Hauled the target out to 90 and shot my highest 90M score that I can recall. A 319 with zero practice shots. 50, 57, 54, 52, 50. Pretty good test, I'd say.

Oddly enough, the Elivanes and Wav's grouped together EVEN AT 90 METERS. I shot 3 of each, each end.

Have to give the long distance edge to the Elivanes. The 57 point end was 10, 10, 10 for the Elivanes, and 9, 9, 9 for the Wav's. Consistently, the Elivanes grouped ever so slightly better than the Wav's. 

Both are fletched with what I'd consider the max offset I can put on them within reason.

There is definitely something to this 6-7 degrees of offset with the P3 Elivanes like Vittorio suggests. Night and day difference vs. when I shot them fletched straight.


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

Interesting about the offset. My elivanes are straight now. Hmmm...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ang, I'd re-fletch them with a few degrees offset when you have the time to re-fletch.

After seeing the results I saw today (best damn groups I've ever seen at 90 meters - I think my Elivane-fletched arrows only missed the gold 3 times) I'll never fletch them straight again, regardless of what the package instructions say.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> So I had a perfectly calm afternoon today, 92 degrees and sunny. Dead calm. Great opportunity to shoot my Elivane P3's vs. the Wav's...
> 
> Hauled the target out to 90 and shot my highest 90M score that I can recall. A 319 with zero practice shots. 50, 57, 54, 52, 50. Pretty good test, I'd say.
> 
> ...


That's really neat. I'd like to have seen that. The best feat of archery I've seen is when one of our local archers shot 4x's in one end at 70 meters in practice.

I'll probably try the WAVs since I have them -- I fletch my daughter's arrows with EliVanes.

Compared to the marks on your nano's, how much offset did you use on the eli vanes? Lined up the pre-drawn lines or even more?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The pre-drawn lines on the Nano Pro's are straight. I went with Vittorio's recommendation, and lined up the bottom right side of the double sided tape with the bottom of the line, and the top left side of the tape with the top of the line. So the angle is about 6 degrees from my calculations (6mm offset over a 6cm length of tape).

When I get time, I'll post pictures.


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## LittleJP (Nov 4, 2012)

Why don't all shafts have pre drawn lines?
Also, I'm curious if a greater offset will have an effect on those of us with smaller arrows. (27.7 inch, around 250 grains or so) I'd test them, but I don't have any eli/spins on hand. I'll give it a go with gas pros next time I redo fletching.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

John, have you thought of trying the ironing method some have used on Duravanes to flatten them back out?


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> The pre-drawn lines on the Nano Pro's are straight. I went with Vittorio's recommendation, and lined up the bottom right side of the double sided tape with the bottom of the line, and the top left side of the tape with the top of the line. So the angle is about 6 degrees from my calculations (6mm offset over a 6cm length of tape).
> 
> When I get time, I'll post pictures.


Do you have these yet? Matt does not. CX sent a picture to show him what he will be getting soon.









Gary


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

John,
When you test the Eli vanes vs Waves did you have to tune differently? Or because only the fletching was different and not the shaft you didn't have to tune different. Guess I'm curious about that if I run my own test between my spin wings and the Eli's I have coming and use the same shaft. Right now I feel my spin wings are tuned in very well I can bare shaft right in a nice group with the spin wings at up to 40 yrds. So when I get the Eli's on should I be able to bare shaft right with them with out making any tuning adjustments?

Ted


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gary, mine are still prototypes. I don't have those yet, but they look great!

Ted, I did not change my basic tune. As I said, they grouped together at every distance. They weighed the same. Bare shaft was in the group all the way to 70 meters. 

Other than not "quite" scoring as well, they shot the same.

I asked the question earlier of Rick McKinney and Vittorio what they would do differently with vanes of identical weight when it comes to tuning. Rick's reply was trial and error. Vittorio did not reply. It's still a mystery to me what he means by tuning for different vanes even though they weigh the same. I can only assume he means group tuning (which is what Rick suggested) which comes down to trial and error and measuring results based only on group size, and not bare shaft impact or any other measurement.

John


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks John, 
That is what I wanted to know!

Enjoy your long weekend and that family of yours!

Ted


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

John, maybe I'll work on them Monday...just in time for Gator Cup!


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ..............
> 
> I asked the question earlier of Rick McKinney and Vittorio what they would do differently with vanes of identical weight when it comes to tuning. Rick's reply was trial and error. Vittorio did not reply. It's still a mystery to me what he means by tuning for different vanes even though they weigh the same. I can only assume he means group tuning (which is what Rick suggested) which comes down to trial and error and measuring results based only on group size, and not bare shaft impact or any other measurement.
> 
> John


John, vanes are changing the reaction of the arrow and its flight, and basically have a different drag, so they wil impact differently on the target. The result is that you can not simply compare the groups with identical tuning, but you have to re-tune the bow for each vane you are testing before comparing the results. . Let's make an simple example:
Suppose to compare a very large vane to a very small one you were using before. Without changing any other parameter, the arrows with large vanes will impact much lower than the arrows with small vanes at 70 mt. So, relation of the fletched arrows to the bare shaft on target will be quite different and the group too. But, which one will be the best group? Of course the group from the arrows and vanes used to fine tune the bow, the samller ones. Then you will have to lower a bit the nocking point and weaken the button to re-tune the arrows with larger vanes, and the result will reverse, and may be you wil be able to get same group size from larger vanes, but then samller one will not group tightly anymore. 
Then you have to consider different fletching angles, different distance from the nock, just to add few basic parmeters in the comparison.
OK, may be after a while you have reached a reasonable compromise and the two groups have identical size at 70 mt, or one of them is slightly better. And of course you have done all this testing with almost no wind or indoor. Now, you have to test the grouping capability of the two arrows with different strenghts and angles of wind, and see how tune has to be adjusted in various conditions for the two different fletching sizes.

Now suppose to have to do this with very small differencies in vanes size and stiffness ... like comparing Elivanes P3 soft and hard, or Elivanes P3 soft and Spin Wing 1 3/4.
A real comparison may need a couple of years of normal shooting .... and several months by a top shooter. 
Last year I have spent around three months and 6 thousand of my daughter's shots to compare SW 1 3/4 and Elivanes P2, then P3, then P3 with angle and to reach a basic conclusion on her arrows. And last week I have re-checked again situation with around 500 shots in different wind.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

gairsz said:


> Do you have these yet? Matt does not. CX sent a picture to show him what he will be getting soon.
> 
> View attachment 1674325
> 
> ...











Yesterday they were flying around on my training field ... :shade:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> vanes are changing the reaction of the arrow and its flight, and basically have a different drag, so they wil impact differently on the target.


So, Vittorio, what about a situation like I have right now, where I have identical arrows fletched with both AAE Wav's and Elivane P3's and they impact the same place on the target at every distance from 10M to 90M? There is obviously no difference in drag, so what else should I look for? Or, is this a case of one vane is simply superior to the other even though they impact in the same place?

From your answer, it sounds like Rick suggested, much documentation of trial and error, and eventually a pattern will emerge.

I was fortunate to have a dead calm condition at 90M a few days ago. At least in that condition, the Elivane P3's fletched at approx. 6 deg. offset, were obviously grouping better than the Wav's. Next I will test them in a crosswind. I have shelter to shoot from, so that allows me to simply test the reaction of the arrow to the wind, without the influence of the wind on me, the shooter.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

By the way, some red auto pinstriping tape on those Elivanes would look killer.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> By the way, some red auto pinstriping tape on those Elivanes would look killer.


Thats how I have my Eli Vanes set up, with red pinstriping tape haha. I also did a red vane, white nock, and blue pinstriping tape combo on my ACEs at one point 

Im experimenting while I have a few weeks before my next shoot with some heavy offset Eli Vanes as well. Initial test shows better flight for me at indoor distances than the WAVs. Im really just tired of the bendyness of the WAVs moreso than making the Eli Vanes work since I already used the Eli Vanes far longer than ive used any other vane.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Vittorio said:


> View attachment 1674541
> 
> 
> Yesterday they were flying around on my training field ... :shade:


Vittorio, Matt is shooting 500's in the prototypes. Would he shoot the same spine in the final version?

Thanks

Gary


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

gairsz said:


> Vittorio, Matt is shooting 500's in the prototypes. Would he shoot the same spine in the final version?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gary


As fara as I understand, there are no changes in the 500 and 450 spines.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> By the way, some red auto pinstriping tape on those Elivanes would look killer.


Not sure.. too much Red in that case...

Anyhow, we also tried Orange and Green nocks, but the market survey (girls present on the field at that moment) said nocks must be Red ... :smile:


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> So, Vittorio, what about a situation like I have right now, where I have identical arrows fletched with both AAE Wav's and Elivane P3's and they impact the same place on the target at every distance from 10M to 90M? There is obviously no difference in drag, so what else should I look for? Or, is this a case of one vane is simply superior to the other even though they impact in the same place?
> 
> From your answer, it sounds like Rick suggested, much documentation of trial and error, and eventually a pattern will emerge.
> 
> ...


Of course, as mentioned, if difference in drag is minimal, then you have to work a little bit with punger first to see if there is anything to sort out form that, then everything goes to testing both solutions for long time in different weather and wind conditions until the most forgiving vane will emerge, as Rick said. May take one year of shooting ... really ...


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## Canario (Jul 11, 2011)

gairsz said:


> Do you have these yet? Matt does not. CX sent a picture to show him what he will be getting soon.
> 
> View attachment 1674325
> 
> ...


Hi Vittorio

Which differences we can find betwen Nano Pro and Nano extreme?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Canario, the original Nano Pro's are true parallel shafts with no taper and consistent spine from one end to the other. This is great for compounds, but not ideal for recurve because it can be limiting on clearance for a finger shooter. The Nano Pro Extremes have a tapered tail section that offers a variable spine for improved clearance for finger shooters. Same is true for the Nano SST's - they are tapered at the nock end for finger shooters. They call that "Smart Spine Technology" and I can tell you with certainty, it does work.

I shot original Nano Pro's fletched with relatively heavy AAE Plastifletch Max vanes and pin nocks (basically a compound arrow) at the 1st leg of the 2012 Olympic trials (in the fall of 2011). Although I managed a 10th place result, including a 336 at 70 meters on my final 36 arrow pass, what most don't know is that I was re-setting the wire rest arm on every single shot because no matter how I turned my vanes, one of them would hit the wire arm on the way by. The combination of parallel shafts and heavy vanes is a deal killer for finger shooters when it comes to clearance.

By the 2nd leg of the trials, I had received a 1st run prototype of the NP Extreme, and had switched to Elivanes and Beiter Out-nocks to reduce nock-end weight even more. I had ZERO clearance problems with those arrows, and if it had not been for a fractured limb lamination on day one, I very likely could have made the top 8. My first 36 arrows on day two of that event, with the new "smart spine" Nano Pro's were good for a 341 - a personal best outdoor 70M score for me. These production-run Nano Pro Extremes are even better with slightly more taper and better clearance. They are the best grouping recurve arrows I've ever shot. Two days ago in practice, I shot a 319 at 90 meters with only 44.5# on the fingers and my sight pulled all the way in. I've never done that before, except perhaps once or twice back in 2004, but maybe not even then.

These are the real deal.

John


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## Canario (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank John

Very interesting what you tell us


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## LBinTN (Sep 30, 2010)

John on your youngun's medallions are you fletching the gaspros straight or with offset?


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

So we took a big chance and fletched with elivanes for the first time this week, right before the daughters first big competition outdoors, the Gator Cup. We did them at the offset per Vittorios recommendation even though she is only pulling 28#. New personal best at 30m/331 and 40m (80cm target)/312 AND they held very well in the wind at the longer distances of 50/60m. While the wind died down for one of the practice rounds she had a 10" group at 60m with some very well used Carbon Ones.They had significantly less wind drift than the spinwings and AAE's and she didn't lose any elevation on her sight marks. (YMMV) Now that we have the Eli's on we'll see how durable they are for a young Cub. One thing I would like to try is the WAV's with more of an offset or a helical clamp.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cephas, those are some truly impressive scores for a cub! Well done!

LBinTN, her Gaspro's are offset about 4 degrees.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks John. We've learned so much here on this site, we owe a debt of gratitude to you and all the others who have helped these newbies along the way. Eliminations tomorrow, she's going to have a blast.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh and John, it's funny to remember not much more than a year ago getting advice from you all on how this kid was going to even make 50m for her first FITA round when she was aiming at the tops of the pine trees behind the target range just to reach the target. Pete


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great story Cephas! 

Yes, there is a world of good info here for sure, if you know who to listen to and what questions to ask. But you also have to get out there and apply it, and it sounds like the young lady has done just that, so the credit all goes to her, and to you for being there for her.

I learned SO much in my early days of this sport through the old Sagittarius blackboard, and then here as one of the first AT members on the fita forum in 2003. Glad I can pass along some of that knowledge still.


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## myrocks2 (Oct 8, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> The pre-drawn lines on the Nano Pro's are straight. I went with Vittorio's recommendation, and lined up the bottom right side of the double sided tape with the bottom of the line, and the top left side of the tape with the top of the line. So the angle is about 6 degrees from my calculations (6mm offset over a 6cm length of tape).
> 
> When I get time, I'll post pictures.


John, do you still have time to post those pics? I really like to see how you went about doing this. Thanks a bunch.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I posted them on the "how to re-fletch a single Elivane" thread. See if you can find them there.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

John or Vittorio, or anybody else, have you experimented with fletching elivanes closer or further away from the nock end of the shaft? I know that I've seen different points for Spin Wings used, and heard the Koreans put their's right up against the end of the outnocks that some of them use.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

hwjchan said:


> John or Vittorio, or anybody else, have you experimented with fletching elivanes closer or further away from the nock end of the shaft? I know that I've seen different points for Spin Wings used, and heard the Koreans put their's right up against the end of the outnocks that some of them use.



You have to experiment about distance, as there is no rule, but surely they should not be very close to the nock


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## Mika Savola (Sep 2, 2008)

Outnocks are almost an inch long, so not very critical positioning...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You have to experiment about distance, as there is no rule


Agreed. Only most archers aren't good enough to see the difference in a change as small as this. 

So, just fletch them 3/4" to 1" from the nockbed, and go work on your stamina, mental game, and technique.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

John:
Would you please post a close-up picture of how your ELYs look on your arrows.
Thanks
Fritz
PS had my first chemo today,,,,,,,,UGH


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fritz, we're praying your treatments go well.

Here's a thread where I posted pics of my Elivane P3's fletched on my current arrows.

I absolutely LOVE the results I'm getting with these. Durable, field-repairable (if that's a word?) light and accurate. The best combination I've found so far.

John


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks John: can't find the link.
The Dr's. removed an encapsulated mass the size of a tennis ball from my left armpit. I will go the chemo route and see what happens.
Cheers
Fritz


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oops. Here it is:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2021187


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

can you shoot the Carbon Express Nano Pro Extremes back-to-front from a compound, as an alternative to Pro Tours?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No point in doing that. You would just use the normal Nano Pro's. They've already been used to win one outdoor compound world championship (2007 - Dietmar Trillus).


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## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> No point in doing that. You would just use the normal Nano Pro's. They've already been used to win one outdoor compound world championship (2007 - Dietmar Trillus).


dont forget the current world champion chris perkins also used the nano pros


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## adamstephens (Mar 5, 2012)

John

I have tried to review the recent threads on ELi's, Gaspros and Wav's to figure out where you are going with your choices. 

Last year you shot the Eli S3s fletched straight and called them your "gold standard". You went through a trial of Gaspros fletched straight and WAVs fletch helical. I think you have now found these wanting against your Gold Standard. Have you now changed to P3s fletched offset in preference?

You have mentioned that you were going to try Gaspros with offset. Have you managed to do this yet for yourself. Clearly your daughter is doing well with these.

I ask because I have run out of spare Gaspro vanes (fletched straight) and need to decide whether to buy more or go in a different direction. I am considering continuing with Gaspros but at an offset this time or to jump to Eli P3's offset.

I use 29" ACE's with 40lbs OTF. I shoot barebow, stringwalking field and target.

Adam


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Adam, yes, I am very satisified with the performance I'm getting with the offset P3 Elivanes now. Especially at longer distances (30 meters to 90 meters). At the shorter distances - for example, field bunny faces and 20M - I'd still give the edge to the S3's. I've not yet shot a field round score as high with the offset P3's as I have with the S3's I used last year. So I'll probably be sticking with the S3's for field, or if I decide to shoot skinnies indoors at 18M. 

But clearly, P3's fletched with significant offset are outperforming anything else I've ever shot at 30M+ Last night, I was getting my 70M sight mark for a demonstration I'm going to shoot today at a cub scout camp. I strung up my bow, and shot 10 arrows at 70 meters - no warmup - with my Nano Pro Xtremes and offset P3 Elivanes. Out of those 10, I had 6 10's 2 9's and 2 8's, and both 8's came while I was adjusting my sight. Not too shabby considering the wind was gusting from about 10-15 mph. 

So I'm very pleased with the performance I'm getting at distance, with the offset P3's. I have no reason to change anything. 

I will say however that Jake shot a most impressive unmarked field score (377!) on Friday with his AAE Wav's, and I got very good grouping with them too. I asked him about the wrinkles, and he said he either re-fletches or just removes the wrinkles (shall we call them "waves"?  ) with heat. I decided that the offset Elivane P3's actually offer me better durability than the Wav's, with easier maintenance if I do need to re-fletch (I can do it in the field if need be) and as good, or better performance than the Wav's. 

As for the Gas Pro's, my daughter is using them with great effect on her little Medallion XR 1500 arrows, but I've not had any real reason to try them again. I got her the "hard" Gas Pro vanes, and they are proving to be extremely durable on her arrows. I checked her fletchings after the field event, and not a single one had been torn or wrinkled or had come loose. She's had a few misses at 60 meters with those now, and no visible affects on the fletchings that I can see. So their durability is very good for a young archer, I think.


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## Houngan (Oct 19, 2007)

Is there a good source for more end wraps for elivanes? They're skimpy in the bag, and looking at it I reckon electrician's tape wouldn't be too far off the mark. I understand pinstriping tape can be used in place of the doublesided tape, when that runs out.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Auto Pin stripping tape works better than electrical tape for end wraps. Not sure about the doublesided tape being available pre-cut outside of ordering the Alt Svc or Range O matic strips from Lancasters.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

The pinstriping tape is used for the end wraps. More double sided adhesive can be purchased from places like: http://www.thermowebonline.com/p/supertape-roll-%E2%80%A2-1-8-in/crafts-scrapbooking_tapes-sheets?pp=24 or http://www.starlitstudio.net/18x5yards.html


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Actually pinstriping tape can be used as end tape. Pinstriping tape isn't double-sided adhesive so it can't be used as fletching tape. Bohning makes a double sided fletching tape. 
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bohning-feather-fletching-tape.html

How well is the double-sided fletching tape that comes with the Elivanes working for everyone? I remember when Elivanes first came out people said the included tape adhered poorly and recommended using Bohning fletching tape. Is the included tape better now?


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

THe double sided tape looks to me like it is the bohning tape.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Ive never had a problem with the doublesided Eli Vane tape. Ive also used the Bohning fletch tape on the Elis and also the WAVs. Those work great too. 

But the Bohning tape is slightly thinner than the Eli Vane or Spin Wing double sided tape. Less surface area for the vanes to contact the tape. That said, ive never had an issue using any of these tapes.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_As for the Gas Pro's, my daughter is using them with great effect on her little Medallion XR 1500 arrows, but I've not had any real reason to try them again. I got her the "hard" Gas Pro vanes, and they are proving to be extremely durable on her arrows._

John, can't remember - were you using the Gaspro 2.5" 'target efficient' vanes, or the 2" 'field efficient' vanes? The target vanes are longer, but look to be _lower profile_.


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## adamstephens (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks John... Very helpful as ever...

Adam



limbwalker said:


> Adam, yes, I am very satisified with the performance I'm getting with the offset P3 Elivanes now. Especially at longer distances (30 meters to 90 meters). At the shorter distances - for example, field bunny faces and 20M - I'd still give the edge to the S3's. I've not yet shot a field round score as high with the offset P3's as I have with the S3's I used last year. So I'll probably be sticking with the S3's for field, or if I decide to shoot skinnies indoors at 18M.
> 
> But clearly, P3's fletched with significant offset are outperforming anything else I've ever shot at 30M+ Last night, I was getting my 70M sight mark for a demonstration I'm going to shoot today at a cub scout camp. I strung up my bow, and shot 10 arrows at 70 meters - no warmup - with my Nano Pro Xtremes and offset P3 Elivanes. Out of those 10, I had 6 10's 2 9's and 2 8's, and both 8's came while I was adjusting my sight. Not too shabby considering the wind was gusting from about 10-15 mph.
> 
> ...


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

I bought a set of ACE 620's & Eli P3's AFTER Gator Cup, in which I shot my Carbon One 730's with WAV's. I built the ACE/Eli's "Limb-Torio Style" w/ 100gr points on Thur. night, shot them on Friday with zero tuning... was so blown away by how they flew I decided to use them in a tournament the next day. I ended up beating my Gator Cup score by 199 points at the Sunshine State Games FITA. Granted, Gator Cup was my first FITA and I didn't shoot as well as I'd hoped. But I'm sold on this setup and am even a little hesitant to mess with the tuning because they are grouping so well right out of the gate. Other shooters were amazed that I was hitting 90 meters without moving my sight in and with only 36# OTF.

Thank you for this thread.

John

P.S. The next day I beat my best 900 round score by 50 points... it was a good weekend for me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

John, congratulations on the shooting! That's very satisfying to shoot that well. I know a few days of scoring like that can carry your confidence for a long time. Good for you.

And Vito and Michele get all the credit for the way they fletched their Elivanes. I just copied their suggestion. And lo and behold, it works GREAT.

Yesterday, I shot a demo for a cub scout day camp with my Nano pro's and P3 Elivanes. I shot 4 colored balloons at 70 meters, as the kids called out the color to shoot. I was shooting so well I moved the target back to 90 meters, and did it again. Four balloons on 5 arrows! It was a good demo, and those Elivanes sure did their job.

Larry, they were the 2" "field efficient" Gas Pro's.


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks John. You are so right about the whole confidence thing... probably the most valuable take-away from the experience. I know that I'm ALOT more excited about going to SoCal now that I feel like my arrows are going where I aim them!  But now I've double-downed on my blank-bale/video work to get my form where it needs to be to continue progressing. Less "just shooting" and more purpose-driven work now.

Demo shooting... that is so cool. You may have inspired a future Olympian in that group with that kind of high caliber shooting. I bet those kids were going nuts when those balloons popped from 90 meters!

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, they were excited when I shot the balloons at 70, but when I started shooting them at 90, they all got pretty quiet and just watched intently. Best way I know to get the attention of a whole bunch of 10 year old boys.  

Good luck at SoCal with your new arrows.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

I've been testing the Gas Pro 2.5" 'target efficient' vanes (pretty low profile, parabolic) for about 500 or so shots. What I'm finding:
- A Gas Pro setup (3 vanes and tape) weighs 1.5grains more than a similar 2" spin wing setup

- I've applied 6 GasPro's - 3 with just slight offset (top of front edge tape at top of pencil line, and top of back edge tape at bottom of pencil line), and 3 with more extreme offset (bottom of front edge edge of top of pencil line, and top of back edge tape at bottom of pencil line) ... Haven't been able to discern any real differences in flight or grouping between these two configurations.

- At 20yards, the Gas Pro arrows react just the slightest bit weaker than do the spin wings (perhaps the GasPros don't have quite as much 'bite' as the SpinWings?).

- At 20yds and 70meters, I haven't really been able to tell any difference in either arrow flight, or in grouping between the GasPro and SpinWings.

- I also want to say, but can't really state it categorically, that at 70meters the GasPros consistently impact just the slightest bit higher than the SpinWings. If that's true, I have no idea why. Perhaps slightly less drag?

- The GasPro's are definitely more durable (they're also more tedious to apply, but if it's far less frequent a necessity, then that's a non-concern).


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

*Balloon Shot!*

Hey John... thanks for the great idea! I actually got a chance to do a balloon shot at a friend's birthday party this past weekend. The hosts of the party had seen my archery posts on Facebook and asked me to bring my bow and do some shooting for them. They had a safe area with downhill slope to a large berm/backstop right in front of a lake. I brought my tape and measured back 70 meters from my little Block cube target. I had to go over a fence but this put my shooting line right behind their back porch where everybody was hanging out to watch. Originally I was just going to shoot at a 6-ring 80cm on the block but then I remembered your story and saw some balloons hanging on the porch. My friend was turning 50 so they were black balloons. I pinned a balloon to the block and walked back to my line... that little block sure looked A LOT further than 70 meters and I would have to aim through the fence. I started to doubt that I would be able to pop the balloon. Well, it took three arrows, one left, one right... then POP GO THE WEASLE!  I don't think I've ever been so happy and/or relieved over a single shot since starting this sport... but what fun!!! The Elivane P3's saved my butt AGAIN!

John









The view from 70 meters... it looked so much further than my usual 122cm target.








You can see my two misses, left and then right, before I finally caught the corner.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

I moved from spin wings to eli's about 4 months ago and I love them. Spin wings do appear (or they did for me) to straighten the arrow out faster than eli's but this was mainly down to sloppy tuning (I only shoot 30m+), once I tweeked the tune they are fine, with no difference in sight marks. 

As people have stated the major advantage of elis is that I have never replaced a vane in the time I have shot them where I would be replacing some spinies from arrow hits (especially at closer ranges). I have recently tried the ofset mentioned by John and have seen no "massive" imporvements shot side by side with straight fletched but the ofset ones do group slightly better. When I say slightly better rough shots are more "forgiven" I.E. what would have been a 7 is well in the 8 at 70 but this does give a fair few points over a 70m round for me. 

As for the tape and the scant bit you get with eli's I have found some 3mm double sided tape online that is, or very much appears to be - even looking a the data sheet and temp applications and such as well as a visual side by side comparison, exactly the same. I used this when fletching up the ofset vanes. Workes perfectly and cost £5 for 50m so plenty spare!


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

hwjchan said:


> John or Vittorio, or anybody else, have you experimented with fletching elivanes closer or further away from the nock end of the shaft? I know that I've seen different points for Spin Wings used, and heard the Koreans put their's right up against the end of the outnocks that some of them use.


I think this falls in line with what Rick McKinney was talking about i an older thread about spin wings. That they can be close to the nock end, but they need to be far enough away that your fingers do not clip them upon release.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=813260&highlight=spin+wings+mckinney Post #8


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

After doing my own due diligence, I found I could not group better using a severe offset with P3s. My best results were using a very mild offset, from one side of the line to the other. This is just my experience and of course does not carry the gravitas of what John and Michele have to say.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Shot my offset P3's this past Saturday in pretty extreme conditions (100+ degrees, and difficult winds) and still managed a 321 at 50 meters (80cm face) during our TOTS 1080 event. Aside from some sloppy shots, the grouping was fantastic and they handled the wind gusts as well as any vane I've shot. I'm sold.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

John, may I request some advice from you regarding Elivanes (or Gas Pros)? This is for my daughter and myself. Here are the details:

Me: mostly shooting 18m indoors, but occasional up to 50m outdoors. I don't compete with anyone but myself and my daughter. 800 spine parallel wall carbon arrows.
My daughter: about half and half indoor 18m and outdoor up to 50m (for now). She's a member of a JOAD team. She shoots Platinum Plus 1616 arrows for now and isn't very hard on her gear.

Right now we shoot VaneTec Swift 2.25" vanes, which are a little on the heavy side (4 grains) but are really, really durable and fly well. I'd like to move to something that can be quickly repaired at the field and figured the weight savings wouldn't hurt.

What would be your recommendation factoring in your cumulative experience with Elivanes and Gas Pros? 

It sounds like for me, you'd recommend Elivane S3 with a few degrees of offset. Am I correct? Where do you order those? Lancaster only carries the P2 and P3 Elivanes.

For my daughter it sounds like you recommend Gas Pros, but what kind? For Gas Pro, Lancaster stocks the Target efficient 2.5" and Field efficient 2" (in hard and medium). If I was going to try these out for her, what would be your recommendation? 

For what it's worth, we tried WAV vanes too. They worked really well, but are a pain to fletch and get damaged (or just plain fall off) way too easily. I don't have the patience for re-fletching my arrows every time I shoot.

Thanks, as always, for providing us access to your expertise.

-Kent W.


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