# Front arm and shoulder position



## dua lam pa

You need a great hands on coach , as about as lively as it can get - 
The front end has been discussed thru the roof -


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## Joe Schnur

More examples of recognizable folks


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## Joe Schnur

Ok I will search that sorry


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## dua lam pa

Joe Schnur said:


> Ok I will search that sorry


No sorry needed Joe - Tons of info here


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## subconsciously

Draw length. 
Notice every archer you posted here has one thing in common. Their draw arm elbow is above the arrow line. Yours is not. 

Not critiquing. Just stating fact. 

My wife won 2 national indoor championships with a bent arm. It can be done. 

.02


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## SonnyThomas

Okay, you just don't try bent and straight. Draw length of the bow needs changed to find what results in best. Anything you do or try needs some adjustment. Try a different release and your draw length may need adjusted. You use a different d-loop material and get different impact results and not that it's wrong, just that you need to adjust. 

I've got tons of pictures. Some archers have over extended, double joint something elbows and look so bad I shudder.

Thumbing through old archery magazines and none other than Terry Wunderle noted whether bow arm locked or bent the shoulder is in the low position. More on this old stuff in a bit.


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## SonnyThomas

Found one. 2005 Easton Utah Open. Pictured is Forrest Carter in the Shoot Round. Forrest eventually took 2nd.


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## fanio

Do you actively pull the shoulder down, or just let it be as low as it would naturally be, without actively pulling it down?


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## SonnyThomas

fanio said:


> Do you actively pull the shoulder down, or just let it be as low as it would naturally be, without actively pulling it down?


Doing some quoting by one of the best; "//// the bow shoulder should remain in a down position, as it is when standing with a relaxed posture. If the archer discovers the shoulder has to come up in order to maintain forward pressure, the draw length is too long."

Okay, those of us that know "our draw length" can feel draw length too long or too short. I don't mind a bit short, but a bit long and I can feel it if only 1/8" too long. Some say that can feel draw length off by .040". 

I use the same d-loop material from the same spool and have d-loops in the ready, but so far haven't had to use them. Okay, I know the stretch and seating of knots to give what I want. If I change to a different release, one of hinges, each are different in some way. One gives a short feeling and another a long feeling. Two needs the peep moved higher. 

Nice reminder, some Posts and replies. Time to order a new spool of BCY #24.....


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## Padgett

When you say that everybody is talking about a straight front arm I would beg to differ, there are two completely different feels to your front arm and reo wilde has more of a stiff front arm that looks locked out and then there is Jesse broadwater who had the low front shoulder and arm completely below the shoulder and grip. I really prefer modeling my form to Jesse but I know a lot of guys who shoot really good that have front arms that look more like Reo. I think that we all have slight differences in our frame that gravitate us to a specific style and you need to try both of them and go with the one that makes you feel and shoot the best.


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Found one. 2005 Easton Utah Open. Pictured is Forrest Carter in the Shoot Round. Forrest eventually took 2nd.


I know Forrest personally, and he does NOT "hyperextend" his bowarm. This is his "natural position" due to the way his elbow joint works. Darrel Pace, a noted Olympic Gold Medalist has the same type of elbow situation.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## 2little2late

I could be wrong, but I think virtually all of the top shooters shoot a repeatable bone on bone bow arm even if that arm appears to be either somewhat bent or somewhat hyper-extended.

Anyway, back to topic...
Try to forcefully hyper-extend the bow arm. You may find that the shoulder can easily come up. Maybe that is what is happening with the OP.


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## Praeger

Joe - Plenty of room for discussion on this. First, it is hard to argue with what works for you. How are your scores? If something is breaking down, what aspect of your form is the weakest? Doesn't matter the sport, there will always be athletes performing at the highest level who deviate from "proper" form. 

The reason behind the "bone-on-bone" form is to reduce/minimize alignment supported primarily by muscle. If you aren't over-bowed and/or have the strength, you can repeatably hold steady with a bent bow arm. To run it to ground for you, try the full extension of your bow arm - it may require a longer draw length. Given time to adjust, and if all aspects being equal you shoot better as is, let it lay.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> Okay, you just don't try bent and straight. Draw length of the bow needs changed to find what results in best. Anything you do or try needs some adjustment. Try a different release and your draw length may need adjusted. You use a different d-loop material and get different impact results and not that it's wrong, just that you need to adjust.
> 
> I've got tons of pictures. *Some archers have over extended, double joint something elbows and look so bad I shudder*.
> 
> Thumbing through old archery magazines and none other than Terry Wunderle noted whether bow arm locked or bent the shoulder is in the low position. More on this old stuff in a bit.





field14 said:


> I know Forrest personally, and he does NOT "hyperextend" his bowarm. This is his "natural position" due to the way his elbow joint works. Darrel Pace, a noted Olympic Gold Medalist has the same type of elbow situation.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Didn't mean for to sound like they do it on purpose. You know L.S. from the Pekin club. His daughter's elbow goes so "wrong looking" me and D.T. groan, but double jointed something elbows do that.


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## Blue X

I would love to coach Forrest Carter for a year. 

Blue X


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## SonnyThomas

Blue X said:


> I would love to coach Forrest Carter for a year.
> 
> Blue X


??? Lost me, Blue. That picture is 9 years...going on 10 years old.


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## Joe Schnur

Indoor Nats 600 95x General Vegas indoor high 290s 18 to 22x that said. My issue is folks complain my arm is too bent respected shooters and coaches. Personally straighter I get it the front shoulder comes up with it and to get it down lots of muscles required. I have since this pic lengthened draw length a lot. I am at about 3/4 inch longer than it was in the picture but even with it where it was I shot competitive scores. Trying to get the last 3% . My build and anatomy seems to have small float with a form similar to Jessie vs Reo. I used to have the Reo lean and have sice this pic removed that defect from my form. I am also told my draw elbow is too low. However for me it is painful if I force it higher and end up again with more muscle groups involved. I will post current accurate pic with vertices references since this is going to become a form critique to some extent. Thank you for being kind enough to continue the thread.mi have read 50 threads on the subject now and am trying now to lock in my form before indoor season 1 month of adjusting then lock for the season an live with the result. 

By the way I am comfortable with the float mainly inside the 10 at 9 yards my house range is short but I use reduced targets for the range to simulate 20. Float goes to hell with a raised shoulder.


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## SonnyThomas

Me, I think 3/4" increase in draw seems a lot. Comfort is for you to decide, not us....

That I quoted above, Terry Wunderle; "//// the bow shoulder should remain in a down position, as it is when standing with a relaxed posture. If the archer discovers the shoulder has to come up in order to maintain forward pressure, the draw length is too long."

People seem to forget something about draw length. One can shoot a draw length too short better than they can a draw length too long. Draw weight plays into this also.

Martin Hottie, other half of CNC Slings, has a draw length of 23 1/2". Me, 28 1/4" plus d-loop. Couch Potato, over 30". Hardbreak, other half of CNC Slings, over 30". B.P., 29". We all shot Martin Hottie's 37 pound draw, 23 1/2" draw Hoyt Selena and we all drilled the X ring like we were shooting are own bows. We all anchored as usual, just bent our bow arm to fit the short draw bow. Hardbreak was so amazed with the little bow he thought of shooting it at the Presley's Midwest Open, that dang accurate.

Working at the archery shop I had to contend with many draw lengths. As long as the draw lengths were near the same as mine or shorter I never had issues. Too long and I had the owner do the shooting. And different bows....may need different draw lengths. 3 longer ata bows I had were set to 28 1/4" plus d-loop. My present shorter ata bow is 28 1/2" plus d-loop.


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## Joe Schnur

It was too short I shot reasonably well but where it is now. At 10 yards and scaled target I am regularly shooting 300 20+x Vegas games need to get to the indoor range to see how well it translates. My guess is high 290's but the arm must have a bend in it. I guess I just need to stop listening to all the quarterbacks and just pick a pro that seems to have similar form and shoots well and model . So Jessie u r it


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## Mahly

I wouldn't try to model after anyone else's form.
You said that your release elbow is not comfortable high up. That is something unique to your form.
Shooting a 600 95x tells me that your form is working for you. Those last 5 Xs are most likely flaws in your shot sequence that maybe get ignored that you need to focus on when practicing.
Reo leans, you have a low release elbow. Both unique parts of form that work for the respective shooters!
Your form doesn't need much work, as you clearly can shoot very well. 
I think it would be a mistake to try to shoot like someone else... No matter how good they are, they are not shooting with your body.


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## Joe Schnur

I agree just not discounting external input from folks that shooters that shoot higher scores. I feel it is mostly anatomical. I am shooting much more consistent my current issue is forcing the shot and not letting down we changed around our indoor house range to make letting down safer. And that should help I should let down 4 in10 as the scope is not immediately settling


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## Wyotarget

Another issue lies where I have been is I shot really well and then started taking comments from others and have changed thing to their suggestions. I now shoot worse than before and it's been 2 years in the works of trying. 

Some times it helps others it don't, find what works for you and stick to it.


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## Joe Schnur

That is where I am now solid setup. Solid scores just practice and focus


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## Fury90flier

Do you have a more recent picture you can provide? Just curious if one thing has changed in your form...relaxed abs. In the pic, could be a bad angle...lokes like you're a little sway backed- letting the belly/waist tilt forward and down. From my own experience this will affect just about everything.

I know you didn't want a form critique, the only reason I bring it up is because I relax my mid-section too often and when I do keeping that solid alignment gets to be more difficult...bring my waist up, back straighter and alignment seems better.


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## Bees

I have shot with my bow arm just like yours and my bow arm moved when I was releasing my arrow. Just wasn't stable enough.
Causes me to spray arrows around the 10 ring. Hence the 295 with 13X's was common score for me in that position. 
I found out I could shoot till I was blue in the face and my scores wouldn't change because I had gotten all I could get out of that position, which was very similar to yours.. 

So doing work to change my alignments and getting into a more stable position for the arrow release.
It's a lot of work and my scores have dropped off but I think I have turned the corner and things are improving.
Yes, I changed to straighter with the bow arm... and changed my shoulder alignment in relation to my target face.


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## Joe Schnur

I can get a pic later tonight I don't mind the critique just wasn't trying to start a how's my form thread . I do have a swayed back and struggle with it suggestions appreciated. If I should be trying to shoot with a straight arm then I need to do that. The goal is vegas face 300 and high 20' x's


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## jrdrees

Joe Schnur said:


> When I drop the front shoulder the sight steadies out nicely.
> However everyone talks about a straight front arm I cannot effectively do both if I straighten the arm the shoulder does not want to stay down. Please advise. Let's have a lively debate on the subject.
> 
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> This is not a critique my form thread just an example pic for illustration purposes


I believe you can settle the bow farther forward, straighten the bow arm and draw with your back elbow higher than the arrow the entire way.


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## Bees

Joe Schnur said:


> I can get a pic later tonight I don't mind the critique just wasn't trying to start a how's my form thread . I do have a swayed back and struggle with it suggestions appreciated. If I should be trying to shoot with a straight arm then I need to do that. The goal is vegas face 300 and high 20' x's


that's my goal too, hence the changes... 
as far as you yourself needing to make a change. 
that decision is yours and yours alone because no one can crawl into your skin with you to experience your shot cycle and then advise.
You have to decide for yourself if you can get more out of your current position or not.

I looked at it this way. I wanted to be scoring a bit better next year.
knowing the year will come and go no matter what I do. I decided to try and make the change which takes time.
If my scores don't go up, oh well, I can always go back to what I had. I mean I know where it is and what I can get out of it.


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## ArcherXXX300

Not to hijack but what do you mean by the swayed back? I have a large curve in my lower back naturally, just kinda how I'm built with my gut. But I also struggle with shoulder position I always try on the draw to have the front shoulder "collapse" if you will towards my spine with a straight arm...my coach said that whatever I was doing with my shoulder was right and to do that...but I don't entirely believe that. Also all of this "Shoulder high" business has me slightly confused are you talking about the deltoid muscle being up or the front shoulder blade...?


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## Joe Schnur

Specifically the bow arm shoulder being high close to neck vs rotated down and blade towards the spine


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## Joe Schnur

Side and end shots for comment current


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## reylamb

Personally, and take it for what this is worth.....

I think you are going to get a bunch of DL too long comments......

But I think your DL is fine, but it may eventually need to be shortened just a tick. What I would recommend:
-Stand up straight, you are leaning back.
-I would move the anchor point down the string a little bit. This would allow you to get the bow arm more straightened without as much bend, it will bring your release elbow up some, and it will get your release elbow inline with the arrow....right now the release elbow is too far behind your head, and not direclty inline with the arrow.
-Relax the fingers on your bow hand.


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## Bees

I went from about where he is to standing straight up and getting my arm back straight.( I had bent it to let the elbow heal up) now it's straight again.
Never touched draw length and it's OK. His draw length will be OK, He can tweak it after he makes some changes. 
I have made the changes but I have yet to tweak my draw length.


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## reylamb

Bees said:


> I went from about where he is to standing straight up and getting my arm back straight.( I had bent it to let the elbow heal up) now it's straight again.
> Never touched draw length and it's OK. His draw length will be OK, He can tweak it after he makes some changes.
> I have made the changes but I have yet to tweak my draw length.


Let the elbow heal?????? There is no time for healing around here!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Joe Schnur

I continue to try to straighten up used to look like Reo hip way forward. I have about 4" of sway in my back and have a rock solid anchor pt now 2 nd knuckle in the socket behind the ear lobe. Bow shoots bullets through paper with both easton 2712 and 2314 shafts. I am concerned about changing the anchor pt. please explain the logic behind the change suggestion. Thx folks appreciate the discussion


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## Joe Schnur

If I push the bow arm out a bit I can probably bring the elbow around


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## montigre

Sorry, but this really has turned into a "how's my form" thread and should be redirected to the Coache's Corner for the desired further evaluation.


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## Fury90flier

I'd agree with montiger...

Joe...in that first picture- is that how you'd normall stand looking in the mirror--leaning back like that? I ask becasue I know some people have some type of medical issue that may warrant that type of stance- if not. then straighten up.

stand up straight like you're looking in the mirror, walking down the street etc...
raise both arms to look like a "T"
draw side, bend at elbow- knuckles at the jaw bone.

bow side:
push your bow arm out... not hyper extended but straight.
bow hand- get rid of the tension in your hand. Relax those fingers and let them naturally drape/naturally fall down--they need to be dead.

on DL...won't know until you correct the rest of your form.


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## Joe Schnur

Cool let's delete the thread I will restart it else where sorry guys


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## Joe Schnur

Ok back to the original question before it became a critique on my personal form. Given the photos of some of the best pro's in the world all having bento font arms what is the correct bow arm? I am thinking that it is hard to argue with jessie broadwaters form he is on his way to the most dominant archer of our decade


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## Mahly

I think there is no "right" way for everyone. 
Reo has a straighter arm, Jesse has more bend. 
Both have proven their style works... At least for them. You just have to find what works best for you.


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## Bees

Joe Schnur said:


> Ok back to the original question before it became a critique on my personal form. Given the photos of some of the best pro's in the world all having bento font arms what is the correct bow arm? I am thinking that it is hard to argue with jessie broadwaters form he is on his way to the most dominant archer of our decade


and the answer is;

the correct bow arm is where you, the archer can hold the bow where ever you want too on the target and get through your shot without any anticipation duress or any other negative things happening to you. If you think your there with what you have in the pictures than it is correct for you. If you think there is something that isn't quit right in your shot then perhaps your bow arm isn't correct. It's your call though. 
As for me, I straighten mine and now it is correct for me. it wasn't when it was bent.


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## Joe Schnur

Thank you for the honest input


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## Joe Schnur

Welllll strange I added 1/2 inch to the draw brought my feet closer together big impact on float cut it in less than half


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