# Helical vs. Straight fletching...



## Dunndm1 (Jan 11, 2017)

I'm wondering the same thing but I'm wondering up to 3 degree... Heard dud say 3 is the best also heard many day 1 is the best. I just want to know what's the best "overall" helical 


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

A helical vane is definately better especially for broadheads. The more helical the better 3-4 degrees on Blazer vanes. A arrow that is spinning going thru the air is more stable in flight. It will buck the wind better and stay on track better. The helical vanes takes control away from the broadhead that way your fixed blade broadheads fly better. You atleast want a offset vane to spin the arrow but a hard helical is the best.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

The arrow straightens out faster and gets on track quicker coming out of the bow spinning also. It’s not much different than a gun they have rifleing in the barrel to spin the bullet for a reason.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Offset has a lot of variables to consider.

Leaving feathers out of the discussion, (which work just fine), the amount of offset you need to use depends on the length of the vane, and height. Type of point. Type of vane, (they are not all the same). Bow speed. Arrow weight. And probably a dozen other considerations.

Vanes need to accomplish a couple things. Spin initiation, and rotation. The shaft needs to spin to correct for shooter bias, and maybe some tuning deficiencies, before the arrow is headed for someplace you didn't point it. Especially when shooting a broadhead. Short vanes need more offset to compensate for loss of surface area, but not sop much offset that vane clearance is an issue. Until the arrow is spinning at a rate that drag is minimal or none, the vanes stabilize with drag, like a parachute, to keep thing pointed in the right direction. That drag affect makes noise, which some can hear, including the deer. Too much offset can actually slow spin initiation due to boundary layer affects. And so on.

So, you need to try a couple combinations of vane and offset on your bow, with your arrows, and your tuning, etc. to really know. You may well find you can't see any difference at all shooting FP's. Most shooters need some offset though. My bows shoot well with 1 degree RW with a helical clamp using 2" and 3" vanes. I shoot arrows on the light side, at 270-300fps. I've been tuning bows for spots, 3D, and hunting for about 50 years, and have used vanes and feathers from 2"-5", straight offset and helical. They all needed something different as arrow weight dropped down, speeds ramped up, etc. But what has worked for me, may have nothing to do with what works for anyone else, or everyone else, (least likely). 

You need to experiment to know.


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## ppkaprince98 (Mar 13, 2008)

Prazdude said:


> I am looking for some input on fletching arrows. As I am a new novice at archery (again), I have sighted my bow in at 10, 20 and 30 yards. Luckily, I have the opportunity to practice my 10 and 20 yard shots nightly at a part time job that I have. But, as it applies to fletching, will it hurt me to just shoot straight fletching vs. a 1 or 2 degree helical. I have watched too many videos that argue both will work. I just don't want to waste money that I don't need to spend. Thank you in advance.


Will straight work, yes especially for the short distances you listed. However, a little offset or helical is what most people do and there are benefits to it as said above. 


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Prazdude said:


> I am looking for some input on fletching arrows. As I am a new novice at archery (again), I have sighted my bow in at 10, 20 and 30 yards. Luckily, I have the opportunity to practice my 10 and 20 yard shots nightly at a part time job that I have. But, as it applies to fletching, will it hurt me to just shoot straight fletching vs. a 1 or 2 degree helical. I have watched too many videos that argue both will work. I just don't want to waste money that I don't need to spend. Thank you in advance.


No problem. Straight and offset vanes are done with a straight clamp and offset can be as much as 3 degrees. Helical is performed with a helical clamp. Helical is helix or spiral.

Opinion; For short vanes 2 and 3 degrees will give as much if not more than what a helical clamp will give. 

3 degrees of offset and helical


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## bowman757 (Oct 30, 2017)

I prefer helical. At hunting distance of 40 yrds or so it helps tremendously. After about 50+ yards it does cause a slight parachute effect.


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## pinwheeled (Apr 27, 2008)

Good information here.


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## Bows for me (Mar 17, 2017)

So a stright fletched arrow don't spin? And if right handed do u offset or helical to the right or does it matter


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I shoot 6* out of the AZ EZ Mini with Blazers out past 100 yards with excellent results, field tips and broadheads. 

The parachute thing is a myth in relation to long range shooting with a helical. 


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bows for me said:


> So a stright fletched arrow don't spin? And if right handed do u offset or helical to the right or does it matter


Basically, no a straight fletched arrow doesn't spin as per sa. Doesn't make any difference right or left offset or helical, but said is not to mix right and left fletched arrows. I don't have a felt hand clamp so can't tell you for sure. Now if you listen the "you gotta" crowd you're suppose to fletch according to how your bare shaft spins coming out of your bow < that probably laid a bunch on your


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## Glorious (Oct 31, 2016)

Helical already have an offset... I Increase the offset slightly as well..

Will Slow the arrow down over Distance... But i carry Plenty of Speed, so No Issues for me.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> I shoot 6* out of the AZ EZ Mini with Blazers out past 100 yards with excellent results, field tips and broadheads.
> 
> The parachute thing is a myth in relation to long range shooting with a helical.
> 
> ...


Shane. Just talking. No bashing. Why do you think it’s a myth at long range. Now I have not tested. With my set ups I use the vanetech hp 1.5. So I don’t have a ton of drag either way. But the more off set or helical the more drag. That means the further you shoot this drag will come in to play and cause an arrow to have this parachute effect. This is just the effects. But your saying no. So this in interesting. I’m going to say it has to do all with velocity and mass. You shoot to 100 yards and don’t see the effect. I would say you haven’t reached the yardage for that to happen with your set up. It might take 200 yards for you to see this. 

I think there are a lot of things we talk about that happens. But it’s not in the distances we shoot. 

If we built a bareshaft arrow with enough mass that 50 yards is max. Then put a vane on it with 1° off set and see what happens. Then build with 6° then see if we have this effect. 

There is a spin rate ratio. And when forward velocity gets below this ratio of spin rate you will see this effect. The arrow will start to dive or wobble and groups open up at this distance. What I would think with most people shooting small vanes is why we don’t see this.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Straight fletch don’t spin. When a arrow comes out of a bow it’s flexing at best. It’s doing a whole lot more if your bow ain’t tuned. A helical vane spinning the arrow will straighten the arrow out faster and get it on its way quicker.

When a crosswind hits a arrow with straight fletch it gets blowed off course farther. A helical vane will fight the wind and try to maintain its path.

Vanes are on a arrow for steering. When you put a fixed blade broadhead on a arrow with straight fletch the broadhead is steering the arrow. When you put a fixed blade broadhead on a helical fletched arrow that is spinning the vanes are still steering the arrow.

I thought the EZ fletch mini was 4* but if it’s 6* then that’s what I use. I won’t fletch a Blazer with anything else.

A straight offset is better than a straight vane but it’s not as good as helical.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

enewman said:


> Shane. Just talking. No bashing. Why do you think it’s a myth at long range. Now I have not tested. With my set ups I use the vanetech hp 1.5. So I don’t have a ton of drag either way. But the more off set or helical the more drag. That means the further you shoot this drag will come in to play and cause an arrow to have this parachute effect. This is just the effects. But your saying no. So this in interesting. I’m going to say it has to do all with velocity and mass. You shoot to 100 yards and don’t see the effect. I would say you haven’t reached the yardage for that to happen with your set up. It might take 200 yards for you to see this.
> 
> I think there are a lot of things we talk about that happens. But it’s not in the distances we shoot.
> 
> ...


At 290 fps and above I have not seen any parachute effect out to 120 yards with 6* helical and Blazer vanes. I do see excellent maintained control of fixed blade broadheads and 6* helical. 

I feel, although extra drag the spin rate is much higher thus carrying stability farther down range with broadheads. 

I also find the 6* helical really doesn’t loose much trajectory over a straight fletch at those distances. It seems to absorb any flaws better and will fight the wind in relation to broadhead control 




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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

enewman said:


> ontarget7 said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot 6* out of the AZ EZ Mini with Blazers out past 100 yards with excellent results, field tips and broadheads.
> ...


If you get on Arizona EZ fletchers site they say helical vanes actually make a arrow shoot flatter.

It could be because when the arrow comes out of the bow with helical fletch it straightens up and gets on it way faster.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

573mms said:


> If you get on Arizona EZ fletchers site they say helical vanes actually make a arrow shoot flatter.
> 
> It could be because when the arrow comes out of the bow with helical fletch it straightens up and gets on it way faster.


Out of an untuned bow, yes 


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> At 290 fps and above *I have not seen any parachute effect *out to 120 yards with 6* helical and Blazer vanes. I do see excellent maintained control of fixed blade broadheads and 6* helical.
> 
> I feel, although extra drag the spin rate is much higher thus carrying stability farther down range with broadheads.
> 
> ...


Explain please.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> Explain please.


I feel the parachuting effect comes from grip even after a perfect tune. Everything is amplified when shooting long range and the slightest difference in applied pressure at the grip will be noticed more as you can see the arrow in flight longer at those distances. 
When everything is working together, tune and archer I see zero signs of parachuting at long range. 
This is why I say it’s a myth. It’s either the tune or archer causing it and it’s more visible in flight the farther you go back when things aren’t right. 


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

ontarget7 said:


> 573mms said:
> 
> 
> > If you get on Arizona EZ fletchers site they say helical vanes actually make a arrow shoot flatter.
> ...


I would think it’s going to help the arrow recover faster from flexing also. A arrow is going to flex whether the bow is tuned or not.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

573mms said:


> I would think it’s going to help the arrow recover faster from flexing also. A arrow is going to flex whether the bow is tuned or not.


We could go over the whole flexing thing but honestly when the archer and bow are in tune the flex is so minimal. Stability when things are right will happen rather immediately and can be seen when shooting paper at varying distances. You can achieve a perfect hole with a bareshaft from 3 feet, all the way back to 20 yards. 


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## WackEM64 (Nov 28, 2016)

Helical .


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> I feel the parachuting effect comes from grip even after a perfect tune. Everything is amplified when shooting long range and the slightest difference in applied pressure at the grip will be noticed more as you can see the arrow in flight longer at those distances.
> When everything is working together, tune and archer I see zero signs of parachuting at long range.
> This is why I say it’s a myth. It’s either the tune or archer causing it and it’s more visible in flight the farther you go back when things aren’t right.
> 
> ...


That doesn't make any sense unless you're saying you have a different grip with straight fletch than with helical fletch. Even James Park tested out of a hooter shooter which unsurpisingly shows lost speed/arrow drop over distance. 

No big surprise because of drag; but, its worth it for stability. A little for field/target points and more for broadheads.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> That doesn't make any sense unless you're saying you have a different grip with straight fletch than with helical fletch. Even James Park tested out of a hooter shooter which unsurpisingly shows lost speed/arrow drop over distance.
> 
> No big surprise because of drag; but, its worth it for stability. A little for field/target points and more for broadheads.


I see a difference of 3” at 100 yards on average with straight fletch vs 6* helical.

Makes perfect sense to me as I see it all the time down range with my own arrows. 

Wow !! Not sure where you got a different grip from. I’m referring to the slightest changes in your grip that can effect long range shooting. These settle changes can and do take place, thus effecting arrow flight long range. 

At 100 yards if I have the slightest change in grip pressure, which does take place even if there is the slightest change in how hard you pull into the wall. This will change grip pressure and can make you pull a shot left or right depending on that applied pressure. It can be the difference from in the 10 ring or out of the 10 ring. 

Makes perfect sense if you understand what to look for. 


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> I see a difference of 3” at 100 yards on average with straight fletch vs 6* helical.
> 
> Makes perfect sense to me as I see it all the time down range with my own arrows. That is a minor variation of the parachute effect due to your smaller vanes.
> 
> Not sure where you got a different grip from.


I read it as different grips equating to the "parachute effect"....which totally didn't make sense.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> I read it as different grips equating to the "parachute effect"....which totally didn't make sense.


Gotcha 
Just different applied pressure at the grip


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

The "parachute effect" is just a description of the higher spin rate creating more drag, and slowing the arrow down. This results in high spin rate arrows hitting lower at distance, such as 3"at 100yds. Can't see how grip factors in whatsoever.
Here is a chart showing spin rates of different fletches. The highest rate is the only one that is helical.
Here is an interesting article:
http://archeryreport.com/2011/07/helical-straight-fletch-speed-deceleration/


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## pmpeaks (May 11, 2011)

Spin = Stability, think knuckle ball pitcher, no spin causes the ball to move eratically. Let me preface my comments by saying that a properly tuned bow and properly spined arrows along with good repeatable shooting form is step one to have a meaningful evaluation of arrow/fletching choice. As a general rule, arrow stabilization with field points or mechanical broadheads will require less aggressive fletching vs fixed broadheads. Fixed broadhead blades are like wings on the front of an arrow and with insufficient spin from the rear fletching will likely fly erratically with unpredictable point of impact. Don't forget the importance of a straight arrow and properly aligned broadheads that spin true. So many variables to consider! It's not always easy to get perfect arrow flight with fixed heads but to me it's totally worth the effort. I'm not a mechanical head fan and never have been so doing all the work to figure out the right combination of arrow components is a must...but I enjoy the challenge. If you don't have the time or energy for that then you can likely do just fine with purchasing pre-fletched arrows with slight offset fletching and mechanical heads.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

BowHunting gave of the 2,422 rpms. Ain't swallowing that at all. It's a Blazer on a sleeve.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

What does that mean? Serious question I don't know...



bowman757 said:


> I prefer helical. At hunting distance of 40 yrds or so it helps tremendously. After about 50+ yards it does cause a slight *parachute effect*.


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## jpenz7 (Feb 6, 2013)

Helical. But make sure to watch LCA video on arrow clocking before you choose the direction.


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## dnv23 (Feb 8, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> I shoot 6* out of the AZ EZ Mini with Blazers out past 100 yards with excellent results, field tips and broadheads.
> 
> The parachute thing is a myth in relation to long range shooting with a helical.
> 
> ...


I agree, I shoot 2" Q2i Fusions with a heavy helical and my arrows fly great out to 80 yards (as far as I can shoot). They may drop a bit more than a straight fletch but they still fly true. Not to mention a helical is far superior for fixed blade broadheads because your arrow recovers faster and the extra drag helps keep the broadhead stable and on target.


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## jhubb09 (Jan 21, 2018)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> What does that mean? Serious question I don't know...


Same question. What is the parachute effect? 

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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jpenz7 said:


> Helical. But make sure to watch LCA video on arrow clocking before you choose the direction.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Multi page discussion (near fight) about clocking. The only one who said a benefit was Thacker (Lancaster video).


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## jpenz7 (Feb 6, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Multi page discussion (near fight) about clocking. The only one who said a benefit was Thacker (Lancaster video).


Levi also. Watch “a tip nobody knows”, he’s referring to arrow clocking. When it comes down to the fine details it matters. I’ve heard Randy Ulmer , Chris Perkins, many other talk about this. 


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## D J A X (Sep 10, 2017)

I prefer strong helical on blazers which I use an Arizona ez mini fletch for.

-Dan


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Multi page discussion (near fight) about clocking. The only one who said a benefit was Thacker (Lancaster video).


I went to a left helical since all arrows clock that way with most my setups and saw zero difference to be honest. 



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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> I went to a left helical since all arrows clock that way with most my setups and saw zero difference to be honest.


Agree. Sometimes left and right will shoot/group slightly different, but it's not true that fletching "with" the natural rotation of the bareshaft will produce better accuracy. For those in doubt, watch a bunch of high level archery finals on Youtube and pay attention to the direction "most" pros fletch, then consider that virtually all right handed archers will bareshaft CCW (left)


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## b_fitnik (Jan 19, 2016)

Gosh dang.... now all this clocking talk has my OCD going crazy. Looks like I know what I’ll be doing when I go home tonight 


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

b_fitnik said:


> Gosh dang.... now all this clocking talk has my OCD going crazy. Looks like I know what I’ll be doing when I go home tonight
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's interesting, but like others I saw zero benefit.


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## Bows for me (Mar 17, 2017)

Well I got a perfect bullet hole with bare and straight fleched arrows so I guess I'm good


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

b_fitnik said:


> Gosh dang.... now all this clocking talk has my OCD going crazy. Looks like I know what I’ll be doing when I go home tonight
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Here's the first post -http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4014881&p=1091415185#post1091415185 

Okay, Thacker is a Pro. Look at his groups, fletched non-clocked and clocked.

Me, I'm a nobody, but placed and won my share in club and state sanctioned events - some of my groups just fletched, no arrow squaring and not spine indexed.


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## Marcel S (Jun 11, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> At 290 fps and above I have not seen any parachute effect out to 120 yards with 6* helical and Blazer vanes. I do see excellent maintained control of fixed blade broadheads and 6* helical.
> 
> I feel, although extra drag the spin rate is much higher thus carrying stability farther down range with broadheads.
> 
> ...


Do you see any accuracy benefits to 4 vs 3 vanes at 80-100 yards with a fixed BH?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Marcel S said:


> Do you see any accuracy benefits to 4 vs 3 vanes at 80-100 yards with a fixed BH?


I still find with fixed a 6* helical with 2” Blazers are my go too. A four fletch is a little finicky for me personally. The standard Blazers and larger vanes are just to loud and effected by the wind more. Too small and they don’t have control for fixed heads. The Blazer X2’s in a four fletch are nice if you have a good tune and stay with a smaller fixed head. They will be quieter in flight than Blazer 3 fletch. 




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## GoofyArcher (Sep 21, 2015)

No dont waste your money, to answer your question. when you start shooting at 5 spots (20) and 60+ yards then you might play with which ones fit your shooting style.
if you have not yet, tune your bow, will make more of a difference than arrows.

Most major arrow manufacture's make pretty good fletched arrows. I personally like Victory VAP elite or expert, but i also drive a FORD, its all in taste.
Try to find a club where you can go with your "free time" and get some longer shots in. Every one is different but for me the more i practice at a long distance the easier the 20 to 40's are.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1278664

^^^Crackers did the only extensive testing I know of, using 3 pro shooters and a Hooter Shooter.....more than 4 months of testing, 
measuring every group shot.


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## b_fitnik (Jan 19, 2016)

skynight said:


> It's interesting, but like others I saw zero benefit.


Good to know. I doubt I would see any either but I agree it is interesting



SonnyThomas said:


> Here's the first post -http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4014881&p=1091415185#post1091415185
> 
> Okay, Thacker is a Pro. Look at his groups, fletched non-clocked and clocked.
> 
> Me, I'm a nobody, but placed and won my share in club and state sanctioned events - some of my groups just fletched, no arrow squaring and not spine indexed.


I looked up that article right after I started ready about clocking in this thread but thanks for sharing. I’m no pro either but it still has my interest peaked. I just like to shoot every day and hunt. I was gonna order a set of mini max arms for my ez fletch soon so maybe this will get me to purchase the left helical arms instead. 


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## Geeman (Nov 28, 2011)

Rayzr feather vanes fletched in an AZ mini are a thing of beauty and fly great, you have to clean the jig with acetone for each set of vanes because it gets gummed up


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

skynight said:


> It's interesting, but like others I saw zero benefit.


That’s not what you said


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Geeman said:


> Rayzr feather vanes fletched in an AZ mini are a thing of beauty and fly great, you have to clean the jig with acetone for each set of vanes because it gets gummed up


Rayzrs with straight offset 2 or 3 degrees has been the best correction / least drag required for good flight I've seen to date. I actually hate the look buy can't atrip them for how well they've works for me.

As for straight vs helical, to me helical has always been for finger shooters and not needed for compound with a release.


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## dsdhunts (Aug 26, 2015)

Clocking to me had more effect in the release and d-loop. 

The best is to play with it the minimum rpm for stability v velocity or your goal. 

2200 rpm sounds right. It’s over a full minute of flight


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

As far as Clocking goes look up A Tip That No Body Knows. It’s from Levi Morgan on Bow Life he tells you his take on it. It depends on how a bare shaft comes out of the bow. If it comes out of the bow left then fletch left helical. If it comes out of the bow right then fletch right helical. He says the bow and the arrow won’t be working against each other and the bow will be more forgiving.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

The rotation of a bareshaft is rather slow coming out of a bow. It doesn’t take much to give it direction of spin one way or another. Whether one chooses right or left. This can be proven just through bareshaft tuning alone. I have robinhooded a bareshaft at 20 yards several times with a fletched arrow that was fletched with right helical and bareshafts turning left. This was proof enough for me that accuracy was not hindered by fletching direction vs bareshafts rotation. 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mentally, well that’s a different story


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## CarpCommander (Feb 5, 2003)

573mms said:


> A straight offset is better than a straight vane but it’s not as good as helical.


How do ya figger a helical vane is any 'better' than a straight vane that's offset? I'd like to hear a logical, scientific reply, using known physics and/or aeronautical nomenclature. 

Aside from imparting more drag, which is negligible with all else being equal, I don't see how a helical fletch is better? Or worse. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't both variations impart spin on an arrow in motion? Don't both variations create drag to the rear of the arrow? When an arrow in motion spins, does this not add fore-to-aft stability? Does drag, imparted to the back of the arrow, not help steer it while in motion? From my very basic understanding, both straight/offset fletch and helical fletch do these things. 

Helical would seem to spin the arrow at more RPMs, which could possibly add more stability, but that adds more rotational drag, which causes faster deceleration. (Shane states this is minimal, even at longer distances). Viewed from an oncoming aspect, helical fletching may have ever so slightly more surface area to catch the wind, but also adds more drag to the rear of the arrow. I suppose out of a poorly tuned bow helical fletch may have a very slight advantage at hunting distances, but I fail to see any noticeable advantage of helical fletch from a properly tuned setup?

I guess I can sum it up like this: both variations do the same damn thing-they spin the freakin arrow and help steer it along it's intended flight path. From a tuned bow, I can't see how either one is noticeably better? Maybe I'm over simplifying this?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

573mms said:


> As far as Clocking goes look up A Tip That No Body Knows. It’s from Levi Morgan on Bow Life he tells you his take on it. It depends on how a bare shaft comes out of the bow. If it comes out of the bow left then fletch left helical. If it comes out of the bow right then fletch right helical. He says the bow and the arrow won’t be working against each other and the bow will be more forgiving.


I'd bet you a nickel that he does not follow his own "tip", and that his arrows bareshaft CCW/Left (because I've yet to see a bow with a clockwise twisted string that didn't clock left). note the right offset/helical in the pic


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Nestly, good catch!


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

573mms said:


> As far as Clocking goes look up A Tip That No Body Knows. It’s from Levi Morgan on Bow Life he tells you his take on it. It depends on how a bare shaft comes out of the bow. If it comes out of the bow left then fletch left helical. If it comes out of the bow right then fletch right helical. He says the bow and the arrow won’t be working against each other and the bow will be more forgiving.


Sorry not buying what he thinks on this. The shaft is going to rotate in the direction the fletching steers it. Natural rotation of a bare shaft IMHO is bunk and effects nothing. More of an excuses.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Dale_B1 said:


> Sorry not buying what he thinks on this. The shaft is going to rotate in the direction the fletching steers it. Natural rotation of a bare shaft IMHO is bunk and effects nothing. More of an excuses.


Bareshafts will naturally rotate one direction, and even fletched may initially rotate that same direction (against the fletching direction) before the fletching takes over. Having said that, I have not seen any evidence that fletching WITH the natural rotation produces better accuracy than fletching against. Sometimes one fletching direction does produce better groupings, but it's not dependent on which way bareshafts "clock" You work in a bow shop, right? why not perform your own bareshaft and fletched test(s)? 

Here are some of mine.... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_dM2JX2aQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY70S2ze8ew


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

nestly said:


> Bareshafts will naturally rotate one direction, and even fletched may initially rotate that same direction (against the fletching direction) before the fletching takes over. Having said that, I have not seen any evidence that fletching WITH the natural rotation produces better accuracy than fletching against. Sometimes one fletching direction does produce better groupings, but it's not dependent on which way bareshafts "clock" You work in a bow shop, right? why not perform your own bareshaft and fletched test(s)?
> 
> Here are some of mine....
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_dM2JX2aQ
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY70S2ze8ew


You already know what I feel about bare shaft. I don't shoot anything but fletched arrows, never use bare shafts so they don't concern me. I understand the theory behind it but find it a moot point as I always use fletched shafts.
Besides even is a shaft does has a natural rotation any fletching will cancel it out not fight it. Left right helical came from the recurve/longbow days not the rotation of the shaft. Todays equipment today again is a moot point.
Bottom line is do what makes you all warm and fuzzy.


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## bowman extreme (Sep 22, 2003)

Bows for me said:


> So a stright fletched arrow don't spin? And if right handed do u offset or helical to the right or does it matter


With feathers, they do rotate. You cant take the natural turn out of a feather. I prefer straight clamp with feathers, for this reason. I do not want a spinning broadhead. "Spinning" (to me) refers to fast rotation. I dont want that.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Dale_B1 said:


> You already know what I feel about bare shaft. I don't shoot anything but fletched arrows, never use bare shafts so they don't concern me. I understand the theory behind it but find it a moot point as I always use fletched shafts.
> Besides even is a shaft does has a natural rotation any fletching will cancel it out not fight it. Left right helical came from the recurve/longbow days not the rotation of the shaft. Todays equipment today again is a moot point.
> Bottom line is do what makes you all warm and fuzzy.


Knowledge is better than ignorance. If you watched the videos, they confirm that even fletched may initially start rotating against the fletching, so it's not bunk. Whether or not it affects accuracy or whether the archer is good enough to gain benefit is another question

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

nestly said:


> Knowledge is better than ignorance.
> 
> Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk



Not in Dales’ case.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

CarpCommander said:


> 573mms said:
> 
> 
> > A straight offset is better than a straight vane but it’s not as good as helical.
> ...


A helical vane causes the arrow to spine faster more rpms than a offset vane does. You said it yourself it causes more drag. The faster the arrow spins the more stable the arrow will be in flight and the more wind it will take to change its direction. Also the more control it will have over a fixed head. 

Back in the early 90’s when most bows wasn’t that fast yet 300fps was still pretty much unheard of. Arrows wasn’t that good all we had was aluminum and fixed blade broadheads where huge. My bow shot 300fps because I was shooting 90lbs. Back then with a fast bow, aluminum arrows and huge broadheads it was hard to get a arrow to fly. The only way to do it was bigger hard helical fletch and more rpms. I shot 4 4in hard helical feathers and it didn’t matter what broadhead you used or if you lined it up. It would shoot with your 
field tips every time.

Helical fletch will cause more drag and more drag equals more speed lose over distance and bigger pin gaps. But it’s also a more stable arrow in flight and more broadhead control. That’s something you got to work out between how much drop you can live with and how much you need for what ever broadheads your shooting. Look at the big turkey chopping heads these days. A bigger vane or feather with a hard helical and more rpms will control that head better. At the distance you shoot them drag isn’t going to matter.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

enewman said:


> That’s not what you said


I don't recall saying anything else. After buying a left clamp, fletching up a half dozen of my hunting arrows and shooting them for a while with BH and fp I saw no advantage to left helical over right helical.
Helical over straight, absolutely. I've said that many times because for BH flight it's simply superior.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

CarpCommander said:


> How do ya figger a helical vane is any 'better' than a straight vane that's offset? I'd like to hear a logical, scientific reply, using known physics and/or aeronautical nomenclature.


Sort of depends on the length of the vane. My 1 3/4" vanes don't show all that much helical though using a 11 degree helical clamps. Using a straight clamp I can get more degrees of offset. Seems 2"+ vanes begin to show helical much better.

Template / 2" red Blazer - straight clamp, near to 3 degree as one can get. Yellow 2.100" Fusion - helical clamp.


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## CarpCommander (Feb 5, 2003)

573mms said:


> A helical vane causes the arrow to spine faster more rpms than a offset vane does. You said it yourself it causes more drag. The faster the arrow spins the more stable the arrow will be in flight and the more wind it will take to change its direction. Also the more control it will have over a fixed head.
> 
> Back in the early 90’s when most bows wasn’t that fast yet 300fps was still pretty much unheard of. Arrows wasn’t that good all we had was aluminum and fixed blade broadheads where huge. My bow shot 300fps because I was shooting 90lbs. Back then with a fast bow, aluminum arrows and huge broadheads it was hard to get a arrow to fly. The only way to do it was bigger hard helical fletch and more rpms. I shot 4 4in hard helical feathers and it didn’t matter what broadhead you used or if you lined it up. It would shoot with your
> field tips every time.
> ...


So you agree with me on the mechanics and physics it sounds like. 

My question is, does it really make a difference from a WELL TUNED bow that's spitting out a nice, straight flying arrow? Will your 2" helical fletched arrow be more accurate than my 2" straight/offset fletched arrow? 

For the life of me, I can't see where it would be? Which makes me wonder why there's a 3 page debate on the subject...lol.


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## kzz1king (Jan 21, 2007)

Has anyone done any side by side testing in a light crosswind? Helical blazers verses offset with same broad head at 60 yards for example. I am happy with the performance I have with offset 2" vanes. Would I be happier with helical?
Wayne


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

CarpCommander said:


> 573mms said:
> 
> 
> > A helical vane causes the arrow to spine faster more rpms than a offset vane does. You said it yourself it causes more drag. The faster the arrow spins the more stable the arrow will be in flight and the more wind it will take to change its direction. Also the more control it will have over a fixed head.
> ...


Absolutely it would be if the wind is blowing. A cross wind don’t care how much or how good your bow is tuned. The faster the arrow is spinning the better it will buck the wind and stay on track. Why do you think Randy Ulmer shoots 6 small low profile vanes. He wants less wind drift and he also wants more rpms. Tim Gillimgham uses 4 helical vane our West for the same reason.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Just keep in mind they shoot mechanicals. Those small profile vanes are horrible in the wind with fixed blades 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

The only difference between "Helical" and "Offset" is the amount of twist that the clamp is capable of applying. If you look down the edge of a "helical" clamp, it's straight just like a "straight" clamp. The Helical clamp just forces the twist into the vane so the base is already normal to the surface of the shaft, whereas the base of the vane in a "straight" clamp becomes twisted only after it's pressed against the shaft. Both are "helical" after the glue sets unless the entire vane base was not pressed tight against the shaft.

What principal of physics explains why an arrow "bucks the wind" better the faster it's spinning?


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I’m no physics major but why wouldn’t it?

If a arrow is spinning it has more control, it’s more stable and it’s more accurate. A 2in Blazer don’t have the control or stability that a 4in helical feather does. Why is that? The bigger feather catches more air, creates more drag, has more control and is more stable in flight. Small vanes even blazers won’t control some badly designed or huge fixed heads. They just don’t catch enough air to spin fast enough to take control away from the broadhead. But bigger vanes will because they catch more wind and spin faster. There is no difference between a 2* offset and a 6* helical. The 6* helical will spin faster, have more control and steer a bigger broadhead. Now why would something more stable with more control not be harder to move off course or affected less by the wind?

I mean you can’t have it both ways. If a 2* offset is better than a straight vane. Why would a 6* helical not be better than a 2* offset?


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

Check out Levi Morgan on YouTube on this subject. Worth the watch.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

573mms said:


> I mean you can’t have it both ways. If a 2* offset is better than a straight vane. *Why would a 6* helical not be better than a 2* offset*?


Probably the same reason that bullets are not more accurate/stable at 1:4" twist rate than they are at 1:10" twist rate. I shoot a lot of outdoor target archery, where wind is always a consideration. 1-3 degree offset seems to be the general recommendation.


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## Paddylad (Dec 13, 2017)

Personally I wouldn't shoot a broadhead tipped hunting arrow *without* helical fletching ... I prefer 3 degrees RW on my Blazers and never have any flight issues with broadheads !!!


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

nestly said:


> 573mms said:
> 
> 
> > I mean you can’t have it both ways. If a 2* offset is better than a straight vane. *Why would a 6* helical not be better than a 2* offset*?
> ...


There is 2-4,000fps difference in a arrow and a bullet! You can’t push a arrow to fast or spin it to hard out of a compound bow. Helical vanes work good and spin a lot faster out of crossbows.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

573mms said:


> You can’t push a arrow to fast or spin it to hard out of a compound bow. .


According to who? .... Certainly not world class target archers.


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## CarpCommander (Feb 5, 2003)

573mms said:


> Absolutely it would be if the wind is blowing. A cross wind don’t care how much or how good your bow is tuned. The faster the arrow is spinning the better it will buck the wind and stay on track. Why do you think Randy Ulmer shoots 6 small low profile vanes. He wants less wind drift and he also wants more rpms. Tim Gillimgham uses 4 helical vane our West for the same reason.


I mentioned nothing of a crosswind. Not being a smartazz, just saying. 

Tim does all sorts of goofy stuff-so much so that I can't take anything he does seriously. Seriously. Randy is kinda similar-he does things a bit different than most folks. Both are knowledgeable guys and great shooters, but until I see the MAJORITY of the elite archers doing stuff like this, I generally dismiss it. 

The main point is actually the tuning. Out of a poorly tuned bow, then a crazy aggressive helical or 6 fletch will surely make a difference in how quickly arrow flight is corrected. No argument here. 

But from a WELL TUNED bow, I still fail to see any advantage over your 2" helical fletch vane, and my 2" straight/offset vane. I honestly don't think it makes a bit of difference. 

What I'm interested in knowing is how much RPM difference there would be between the 2 variations, helical vs straight/offset, with all else being equal. It's beyond my mathematical skills, but I do know it's a quantifiable number that can indeed be calculated. 

Who wants to do the math....?


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## dsdhunts (Aug 26, 2015)

nestly said:


> 573mms said:
> 
> 
> > I mean you can’t have it both ways. If a 2* offset is better than a straight vane. *Why would a 6* helical not be better than a 2* offset*?
> ...


Bullet depends on length of the bullet 5.56 has huge accuracy issues (for a rifle) if you shoot the wrong bullet in a 1:10 vs 1:7. Bullets also spin about 30k rpm to stabilize the roc weight. Rear of center. 

The issue becomes you can have to much. 1:7 is harder to produce and will shred varmit bullets. 55g and less also don’t need more the 1:10 even 1:12 works great. 

I do not know if this is true for arrows just clearing the rate of twist thing. 

I’ll add the 4” won’t clear my rest at rest and

Height of the vane has more effect then length something about clean air 

I can try applying my limited but better then most prop knowledge. 

A cup or helical prop with a progressive pitch will run more rpm and faster then straight pitch or progressive only (depending on progression aggressiveness) cupped also grip or bite better.


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## CarpCommander (Feb 5, 2003)

573mms said:


> There is 2-4,000fps difference in a arrow and a bullet! You can’t push a arrow to fast or spin it to hard out of a compound bow. Helical vanes work good and spin a lot faster out of crossbows.


X-bows generally use offset vanes because there isn't enough room in the rail for a true helical fletch. But I get what you mean.

I have to disagree on the spin thing though. There comes a point of diminishing returns in regards to arrow spin.


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## Prazdude (Dec 23, 2017)

Thank you to everyone that piped in. As said above, there is a lot of great information to process. I got a hold of a used Bitzenburger for $40 with a straight clamp and fletched 2 arrows at a 2 degree right offset. I will try these tonight and see what happens. Thank you all again.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

World class target archers shoot world class arrows with world class form. Who gives a crap about world class archers.

Normal people don’t have world class form. Especially twisted up in a treestand or sitting in a chair in a ground blind. It takes good form to shoot a fixed blade good. Form flaws show up and are exaggerated with fixed blade heads. A helical vane spinning the arrow faster will be more forgiving with fixed blade heads under these circumstances. At hunting distances they will shoot better for the average person. If you have more control than you need then no big deal. If your have less control than you need for any reason then you have a probablem. Shooting broadheads standing in your yard on flat ground with good form can be way different than shooting a fixed head in the woods hunting.


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

573mms said:


> World class target archers shoot world class arrows with world class form. Who gives a crap about world class archers.
> 
> Normal people don’t have world class form. Especially twisted up in a treestand or sitting in a chair in a ground blind. It takes good form to shoot a fixed blade good. Form flaws show up and are exaggerated with fixed blade heads. A helical vane spinning the arrow faster will be more forgiving with fixed blade heads under these circumstances. At hunting distances they will shoot better for the average person. If you have more control than you need then no big deal. If your have less control than you need for any reason then you have a probablem. Shooting broadheads standing in your yard on flat ground with good form can be way different than shooting a fixed head in the woods hunting.


Actually that is incorrect or Firenocks Averovan 3's could be used with broadheads. 
Spin is considered a destabilizing effect, it can be used if a certain ratio is maintained between spin and the forward motion to increase accuracy but spin and broadheads need to be balanced to achieve control.

GRIM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Probably the same reason that bullets are not more accurate/stable at 1:4" twist rate than they are at 1:10" twist rate. I shoot a lot of outdoor target archery, where wind is always a consideration. 1-3 degree offset seems to be the general recommendation.


Then why the different rates of twists in rifle barrels? AR15 and heavier than norm bullets needed a different twist and found it made the AR15 with heavy bullets more accurate than the norm


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

GRIMWALD said:


> Actually that is incorrect or Firenocks Averovan 3's could be used with broadheads.
> Spin is considered a destabilizing effect, it can be used if a certain ratio is maintained between spin and the forward motion to increase accuracy but spin and broadheads need to be balanced to achieve control.
> 
> GRIM


Yes sir. Balance seems forgotten.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Then why the different rates of twists in rifle barrels? AR15 and heavier than norm bullets needed a different twist and found it made the AR15 with heavy bullets more accurate than the norm


Because the required spin rate varies for each diameter/length/velocity combination. "Faster" spin rate does not produce greater performance in all bullets, and "faster" spin rate does not produce greater performance in all arrows either.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Because the required spin rate varies for each diameter/length/velocity combination. "Faster" spin rate does not produce greater performance in all bullets, and "faster" spin rate does not produce greater performance in all arrows either.


I know why, but throw out info and not give it in proper mode isn't helping the masses here. 

.22-250 - over 4000 fps and the wrong 40 gr jacketed bullet won't make it to 100 yards. Poof goes the bullet (tiny gray cloud) because of too much spin.


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## kzz1king (Jan 21, 2007)

To little spin on bullets can also cause tumbling or keyholing. Had that happen in a shot out 17 barrel.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

i mainly hunt and use a lot of fixed heads. i wasnt a fan of straight fletch with fixed heads, so i got an arizona EZ fletch mini jig because its a great jig and the price was right. so now i shoot helical. it works for me. i picked up a pile of clearance arrows that have an offset fletch already on them. they fly really well also, so i havent stripped them and refletched and dont plan to unless i damage them.


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## sportbob (Dec 21, 2012)

After hearing Dudley mention drag on 3 degree I tested my 3 fletch heat vanes last year, 1 degree vs 3 degree. At 80 yards they were both hitting the same horizontal line. That's as far as I shoot, so I'm staying with the 3 degree.


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## songbirdtb (Dec 22, 2017)

It depends on a few things. First, what kind of rest are you shooting. If you're shooting something like a blade rest, the sharper the helical the more contact you're going to get as the arrow exits the bow causing accuracy issues. If you're shooting a limbdriver or dropaway, that's not an issues. Distance also comes into play. The longer your average shot, the more time the arrow has to straighten itself out, so a strong helical isn't as important. But if your average shot is 20-30 yards, you need that arrow to straighten out as quickly as possible and a stronger helical will help with that. The type of point you're using is also a factor. Broadheads need a little something extra to balance them out and straighten them out, i.e., a stronger helical.


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## Dustoff707 (Jul 12, 2017)

I have always shot full helical -- since 1969. I use fixed-blade broadheads on heavy arrows (525 gr total weight) and the helical stabilizes better and is more forgiving IMO.


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## PNW Slayer (Nov 4, 2017)

They most definently spin man, funny you would ever think an arrow doesn't spin when shot. If you think that and have no experience why comment???


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## PNW Slayer (Nov 4, 2017)

Helical or not they will shoot the same, coming out of the bow the arrow spins regardless, Is what it comes down for me is gluing the veins on an arrow at an angle or the helical will be more of a chance for an air bubble or not a good glue job which can and will and I've seen LOTS of veins pop off on shots from my buddies who use helical fletchings. I for one eliminate lots of room for error and my 1 degree is perfect and makes no difference so why take the chance with a messed up glue job?? Not worth it!!! I would never go over a 2 degree but 1 degree is the best for shooting with a solid glue contact!!! Heard it from the pro here first guys!


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## Casey Hatley (Nov 9, 2017)

Prazdude said:


> I am looking for some input on fletching arrows. As I am a new novice at archery (again), I have sighted my bow in at 10, 20 and 30 yards. Luckily, I have the opportunity to practice my 10 and 20 yard shots nightly at a part time job that I have. But, as it applies to fletching, will it hurt me to just shoot straight fletching vs. a 1 or 2 degree helical. I have watched too many videos that argue both will work. I just don't want to waste money that I don't need to spend. Thank you in advance.


I shoot a lot of target. When I get on archery talk I will see things and if I see a good idea I will try it. If it doesn’t work for me then I drop it and continue on my quest of knowledge. Endless as it is, I love trying new things and furthering my skills. That being said, I got a bitz and tried helical. Now I don’t know why but at first I did a very minor offset with right helical and my field tips flew terrible. So I was discouraged and mad. Then I did the most aggressive offset I could that would still grant me complete cane contact. Once I did this it flew perfect. The reason I will always use helical with THIS PARTICULAR BOW AMD ARROW is because I’ve tried it and it worked. But with a straight vane and a 1 degree offset (I used when I bought arrows from stores) my broad heads did not group or impact anywhere near my field tips. Once I tried the helical and shot a half inch group I knew that helical really does stabilize these broad heads. People say a bunch of things but when you test it and it works for you, then you actually understand it. So try it. It worked for me!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

A straight clamp if used with offset within a few degrees of the offset will have trouble gluing the ends of the vane or feather onto the shaft because they don't sit on the shaft anymore.

A Helical clamp with offset is easier to use more offset than a straight clamp and the ends of the vane or feather will lay on the shaft easier. 

With 2 inch short vanes and feathers they are so freaking short that in a helical clamp there just isn't much curve so it really helps them to use some offset to create some nice spin. 

Long 4 or 5 inch feathers and vanes will show a ton more helical out of the same clamp and really not need much offset to help them spin.


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## 1HOOT1 (Oct 14, 2010)

You said you're shooting daily, are you consistent and how far off target are you?


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## moosestopper (Jan 3, 2010)

I run 2" blazers with 3* helical and fixed blade broadheads. You need something to spin the arrow. My friend bought new arrows that were straight fletched. I stripped the vanes off and refletched em with 3* helical and his group size went from 8" at 40 yrds to 2" with broadheads.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

kzz1king said:


> To little spin on bullets can also cause tumbling or keyholing. Had that happen in a shot out 17 barrel.


And then key holing may do to not having enough powder to the get the bullet moving fast enough. Years back, working in unknown territory I started with X amount of powder and bullets did everything but right. Knew I was on the low end and added powder little at a time. X amount of powder gave better results and more powder had the bullet performing at top level, speed, horse power and accuracy. Today my then "pet load" is exceeded.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

songbirdtb said:


> It depends on a few things. First, what kind of rest are you shooting. If you're shooting something like a blade rest, the sharper the helical the more contact you're going to get as the arrow exits the bow causing accuracy issues. If you're shooting a limbdriver or dropaway, that's not an issues. Distance also comes into play. The longer your average shot, the more time the arrow has to straighten itself out, so a strong helical isn't as important. But if your average shot is 20-30 yards, you need that arrow to straighten out as quickly as possible and a stronger helical will help with that. The type of point you're using is also a factor. Broadheads need a little something extra to balance them out and straighten them out, i.e., a stronger helical.


most of this is backwards. helical helps more at a distance. shorter shots it matters less. i shoot a helical from a whisker biscuit, and i can tell you that there are NO accuracy issues with the 'vane contact.' its the same, everytime. i can drive tacks, as can anyone with decent form and a biscuit. it infuriates me when people spread nonsense like that.


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## ChristianM67 (Jun 30, 2017)

There is a lot of misunderstanding why a spinning projectile or arrow is more stable. It has nothing to do with drag on the vanes of the arrow (a bullet does not have vanes but is still stabilized with spin). All arrows or bullets will have small or large imperfections that will have an aerodynamic influence that will try to steer the projectile off the ideal trajectory. For an arrow this can for example be differences in the spine around the circumference, scratches on the arrow shaft, fixed broad heads, non-straight shafts and a number of other things that will try to steer the arrow. 

If the arrow is not spinning then these imperfections will to some degree steer the arrow off target and thus increase the group size. With the arrow spinning then this off-axis aerodynamic force will rotate with the arrow and effectivity cancel it self out. Faster spinning arrows will be more accurate but only up to a point. Spin it to fast and imbalances in the arrow will try to bend it which will decrease accuracy..

As an analogy for this let us consider a car that pulls slightly to one side. It will of course steer off track if you do not hold the steering wheel to correct it. However if you oscillate the steering wheel back and forth then the car will rock slightly back and forth but it will travel straight. This is equivalent to what spinning the arrow does.

Any spinning arrow will be more accurate than a straight fletched non-rotating arrow with the same vane size. Larger straight vanes will reduce the aerodynamic effect but will not eliminate it. Fixed broad heads provide quite a bit of steering surface and will benefit greatly in terms of group size with a spinning arrow.


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## MandK (Jul 29, 2013)

nestly said:


> Bareshafts will naturally rotate one direction, and even fletched may initially rotate that same direction (against the fletching direction) before the fletching takes over. Having said that, I have not seen any evidence that fletching WITH the natural rotation produces better accuracy than fletching against. Sometimes one fletching direction does produce better groupings, but it's not dependent on which way bareshafts "clock" You work in a bow shop, right? why not perform your own bareshaft and fletched test(s)?
> 
> Here are some of mine....
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_dM2JX2aQ
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY70S2ze8ew


 A very nice video, seems to make your point.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

take a few arrows, one straight, one offset and one helical. throw them by hand like a spear high and far. then hold them by the nock with the point behind you and overhand toss it like a hatchet, so it cartwheels. tell me which stabilizes quicker and sticks nicely in the dirt on both tests. then next best, and which is the worst both tests. watch how the vane end kind of pendelums back and forth before it straightens out, which does this fewer times. 

now before you say a cartwheeling arrow isnt anything like a bow, youre kind of right. a bow will put these arrows out much more cleanly, but if one fletching style can can easily correct such a wildy off arrow, why wouldnt you want that for your bow shot arrows. a couple fps worth the loss of that much control?


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## leterflyagain (Jul 30, 2011)

If your arrow is fast and lighter weight. Much offset or helical can give you issues with fixed blade broadheads. 
People always say helical or offset steers fixed heads better but that is not ALWAYS the case.
Your vanes need undisturbed air to work optimal no mater the offset. So... when they spin fast enough and travel fast enough that the vanes are taking on air disturbed by the broadheads they will become unstable. Less spin =less bh air distubance as it cuts through rather than swirling the air that your vanes need to work.
Now on heavy arrows the shaft itself has a lot of stablizing potential plus it's harder to get spinning as fast.... so not as touchy.

On slower arrow there is more time for the air to stabilize behind the broadhead before the vanes reach it.... so not as big deal.
Light, fast and fast spinning with fixed blade broadheads..... not good... unless you have enough vane/feather


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jaximus said:


> take a few arrows, one straight, one offset and one helical. throw them by hand like a spear high and far. then hold them by the nock with the point behind you and overhand toss it like a hatchet, so it cartwheels. tell me which stabilizes quicker and sticks nicely in the dirt on both tests. then next best, and which is the worst both tests. watch how the vane end kind of pendelums back and forth before it straightens out, which does this fewer times.
> 
> now before you say a cartwheeling arrow isnt anything like a bow, youre kind of right. a bow will put these arrows out much more cleanly, but if one fletching style can can easily correct such a wildy off arrow, why wouldnt you want that for your bow shot arrows. a couple fps worth the loss of that much control?


Clocking has not proved more control, which I guess you're say is accuracy. Several of us and at least one well known have produced groups as good or better than that supplied by Thacker. The other part is most already have right hand helical clamps. I'm not going to buy 8 new left hand helical clamps when there's nothing to gain......


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Clocking has not proved more control, which I guess you're say is accuracy. Several of us and at least one well known have produced groups as good or better than that supplied by Thacker. The other part is most already have right hand helical clamps. I'm not going to buy 8 new left hand helical clamps when there's nothing to gain......


i never mentioned clocking, ever, i think its a crock. 

im pro helical because thats what my jig is. im anti straight fletch, because im a hunter, and things get wonky in the woods


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## N0kturnal (Jan 22, 2018)

I used to just use whatever came on my arrows (straight), but recently bought a vane master pro so I could make my own arrows. I put a 3 degree right helical on some easton injexions and have had outstanding grouping. Seem to be much more stable on longer shots!


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

jaximus said:


> i never mentioned clocking, ever, i think its a crock.
> 
> im pro helical because thats what my jig is. im anti straight fletch, because im a hunter, and things get wonky in the woods


I can agree with that statement, that is why I shoot without vanes.

GRIM


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Clocking has not proved more control, which I guess you're say is accuracy. Several of us and at least one well known have produced groups as good or better than that supplied by Thacker. The other part is most already have right hand helical clamps. I'm not going to buy 8 new left hand helical clamps when there's nothing to gain......





jaximus said:


> i never mentioned clocking, ever, i think its a crock.
> 
> im pro helical because thats what my jig is. im anti straight fletch, because im a hunter, and things get wonky in the woods


Here's the thing, until/unless you test, you're not really in a position to say whether clocking does, or does not make a difference, or whether Helical does or does not make a difference. It sounds like you both have just taken the position that "what I've always done" is providing acceptable results so there can be nothing better, which is not unlike someone that's never owned/driven anything other than Fords proclaiming that Ford is best. 

As long as I've been a target archer, I've tested multiple fletching configurations for every new arrow I build/test. Left vs right DOES sometimes make a noticeable difference in group size and/or POI. Notice that I said left vs right, not clocked vs un-clocked. That's because for a couple of decades I never even considered which direction the bareshaft "clocked" when doing my tests until 2 years ago, and what I've found since then is that I wasn't missing anything because sometimes arrows group better when they are fletched with the BS "clocked" rotation, and sometimes they group better when fletched opposite. Bottom line is that you can't build the perfect arrow based on "theory", you have to actually experiment if you want to find an arrow that works "best". Anyone that's only ever fletched "right" or only ever fletched "helical" is in no position to speak intelligently about the subject, IMO. And for the record, I had to eat crow on whether arrows will initially rotate against the fletch direction, as I was originally adamant that fletched arrows would always rotate with the fletching.... until of course I actually tested it and proved myself incorrect.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Here's the thing, until/unless you test, you're not really in a position to say whether clocking does, or does not make a difference, or whether Helical does or does not make a difference. It sounds like you both have just taken the position that "what I've always done" is providing acceptable results so there can be nothing better, which is not unlike someone that's never owned/driven anything other than Fords proclaiming that Ford is best.
> .


Hey, nestly, remember I was in on that clocking thread. I was the one of the first, if not first, to point out Thacker's groups were a pizz poor example of the point of the post. I did the test for bare shaft rotation, supplied pictures for each distance. More than one person caught on that part of the Thacker post was Lancaster pitching their fletching jig.


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## deerslayer985 (Jan 26, 2015)

I am a little confused on this clocking term...Your talking about the direction the bare shaft spins, and then fletching with helical or offset in that direction? Am I understanding that right? Also how can you tell which way your bare shaft is rotating if that is what you mean?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Hey, nestly, remember I was in on that clocking thread. I was the one of the first, if not first, to point out Thacker's groups were a pizz poor example of the point of the post. I did the test for bare shaft rotation, supplied pictures for each distance. More than one person caught on that part of the Thacker post was Lancaster pitching their fletching jig.


That's all well and good, but if someone has never tested left vs right, or "clocked" vs "non-clocked" they still have no actual experience to form an opinion from. Again, left vs right is something I have a lot of first hand experience with, and sometimes that single variable DOES make a difference in group size. I have not yet seen any indication that "clocking" is directly related to accuracy (at least not for target arrows)


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

The only difference from left to right is the shooter. One day you might have a better day with left, the next day right, another day both the same. 

I got left and right helical arrows and I can’t even tell the difference from one to another, as they fly the same. 

Then again, I’m happy with pie plate groups [emoji12]




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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

deerslayer985 said:


> I am a little confused on this clocking term...Your talking about the direction the bare shaft spins, and then fletching with helical or offset in that direction? Am I understanding that right? Also how can you tell which way your bare shaft is rotating if that is what you mean?


Yes, "clocking" is simply determining which way a bareshaft naturally turns as it leaves the bow. Put a mark on the "top" of a bareshaft (or just use the nock/fletching colors as an index) and shoot it at 6 feet and then look at the arrow as it lies in the target butt to see if the bareshaft rotated CW (right) or CCW (left), then shoot at 8 feet, then 10 feet, then 12 etc etc and you will easily be able to tell which direction the bareshaft is rotating out of the bow, and get a pretty good idea of it's spin rate also.

"Theory" then says that it's better to install fletchings that continue rotating the arrow in that same direction rather than having the fletchings fighting against the natural direction the shaft wants to rotate. That test could also be performed with a fletched arrow. "If" the arrow turns the same direction as the fletching at 6 feet, then it's safe to assume that 1) you are already fletched the same direction as your bareshafts "clock", or 2) your offset/helical is great enough to overcome the natural rotation direction. Does any of it matter if the arrow initially leaves the bow rotating left and then at some point down range the fletching takes over and reverses the rotation direction? We can theorize about that (and I did), but I also found that "theory" is not necessarily how things work in the real world.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> The only difference from left to right is the shooter. One day you might have a better day with left, the next day right, another day both the same.
> 
> I got left and right helical arrows and I can’t even tell the difference from one to another, as they fly the same.
> 
> Then again, I’m happy with pie plate groups [emoji12]


Realistically, how extensive was your testing?. If you're not actually recording group sizes (or keeping score) it's not easy to see subtle differences. If you shoot 10 or 20 full scored rounds with two different test arrows, it's a lot easier to discern which is more accurate than when not "scoring". For most bowhunters, I'd say none of it matters. Bowhunters probably don't care if their average groups are 4" at 50 yards, or 4-1/2" inches at 50 yards because both fill the freezer. The difference between 4" and 4-1/2" groups at 50yds matters a lot more to target archers because it's not a simple pass/fail criteria, a couple of millimeters in in competition can make a big difference in the results.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nestly said:


> Realistically, how extensive was your testing?. If you're not actually recording group sizes (or keeping score) it's not easy to see subtle differences. If you shoot 10 or 20 full scored rounds with two different test arrows, it's a lot easier to discern which is more accurate than when not "scoring". For most bowhunters, I'd say none of it matters. Bowhunters probably don't care if their average groups are 4" at 50 yards, or 4-1/2" inches at 50 yards because both fill the freezer. The difference between 4" and 4-1/2" groups at 50yds matters a lot more to target archers because it's not a simple pass/fail criteria, a couple of millimeters in in competition can make a big difference in the results.


About 3 months worth

It was a complete wash for me for all practical purposes. 

I pretty much ended the whole ordeal when I robinhooded a couple fletched arrows with bareshafts that were turning left into fletched shafts that had right helicals. 

Just made me realize there were more important things that lead to accuracy and wasn’t worth my time anymore. 

However you may find that a left helical is more accurate so by all means, run with it. 

Mentally, it may make a difference for some but when a robinhooded a couple that were done opposite it made me move on. 

It may just be that I’m not consistent enough to see the difference, who knows 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> About 3 months worth
> 
> It was a complete wash for me for all practical purposes.
> 
> ...


Robinhoods are great, but I don't think they really tell the story the way scoring does. After the Thacker clocking thread (2016?), I alternated between arrows that were identical other than fletch direction for for about 20 field rounds, and there was no question that I scored (slightly) higher with the right (which was against the clocked direction). Again, the difference is subtle, 4-5 points per round, not something you'd notice over course of 100 arrows if you're not recording results, but you definitely don't want to leave 4-5 points on a field course either.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nestly said:


> Robinhoods are great, but I don't think they really tell the story the way scoring does. After the Thacker clocking thread (2016?), I alternated between arrows that were identical other than fletch direction for for about 20 field rounds, and there was no question that I scored (slightly) higher with the right (which was against the clocked direction). Again, the difference is subtle, 4-5 points per round, not something you'd notice over course of 100 arrows if you're not recording results, but you definitely don't want to leave 4-5 points on a field course either.


What distances are we talking and what targets are you referring to ? 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> What distances are we talking and what targets are you referring to ?


Field archery. 28 targets, distances from 20 feet to 80yards, 4 arrows at each target, 112 arrows per round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNBzWnNvMdE


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

So at what distances did you start seeing a difference and where were your average points dropped at when comparing ?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> So at what distances did you start seeing a difference and where were your average points dropped at when comparing ?


Targets size vary based on distance, so it's not just a matter of distance. The 30yard target is a lot harder than the 55 yard because it's shot at a 35cm face (smaller than a vegas face) whereas you shoot a 65cm face at 55yards.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nestly said:


> Targets size vary based on distance, so it's not just a matter of distance. The 30yard target is a lot harder than the 55 yard because it's shot at a 35cm face (smaller than a vegas face) whereas you shoot a 65cm face at 55yards.


I’m aware of this, as I have a coarse 15 min from my house. 

Just asking to see where you saw the points drop most for you on average since you recorded everything 

No biggie, just curious 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

nestly said:


> What principal of physics explains why an arrow "bucks the wind" better the faster it's spinning?


Centripetal.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Prazdude said:


> Thank you to everyone that piped in. As said above, there is a lot of great information to process. I got a hold of a used Bitzenburger for $40 with a straight clamp and fletched 2 arrows at a 2 degree right offset. I will try these tonight and see what happens. Thank you all again.


I've been shooting exactly that for 30+ years and have found in all my testing it is the best all-round configuration.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> I’m aware of this, as I have a coarse 15 min from my house.
> 
> Just asking to see where you saw the points drop most for you on average since you recorded everything
> 
> No biggie, just curious


I'm most likely to miss the Field spot at:
80, 70, 50, 65, 60 & 45 in that order because proportionally, those are the smallest targets relative to the distance. Additionally, the longer targets have more risk of wind, incline, and sidehill affecting POI even if they weren't proportionally smaller.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nestly said:


> I'm most likely to miss the Field spot at:
> 80, 70, 50, 65, 60 & 45 in that order because proportionally, those are the smallest targets relative to the distance. Additionally, the longer targets have more risk of wind, incline, and sidehill affecting POI even if they weren't proportionally smaller.


You referring to missing the 10 or X ?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> You referring to missing the 10 or X ?


Sometimes I wish there was a "10" in Field, but there's not. Targets are scored 5-4-3 with an X in the center. But specifically when I said "miss the spot" I'm referring to the black "5-ring" in the middle, although as a percentage, I'm sure I'm most likely to "miss the X" at those distances as well because again, the X is proportionally smaller at those 6 distances than the other distances.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Just a habit of saying 10
Just gives an idea of shooting ability 
Thanks


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> Just gives an idea of shooting ability


It would if people actually produced scores for standard rounds. When people talk about shooting 2, 3, 4, or even 5" groups at 80 yards, I just roll my eyes. No they don't. Occasionally they may get lucky and shoot 4 or 5 arrows into a tight "group" but not consistently. Not even JesseB or Dave Cousins shoot them all in the "spot" on a typical Field course every time, and hitting the "spot" in Field is way easier than hitting a 5" circle at 80.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

nestly said:


> It would if people actually produced scores for standard rounds. When people talk about shooting 2, 3, 4, or even 5" groups at 80 yards, I just roll my eyes. No they don't. Occasionally they may get lucky and shoot 4 or 5 arrows into a tight "group" but not consistently. Not even JesseB or Dave Cousins shoot them all in the "spot" on a typical Field course every time, which is "easier" than shooting 5" "groups" at 80yds.


yep, there are some AMAZING shooters that are always contributing to this site. They continuously post things like their 80 or 100 yard bulls-eyes and act like this is just their "normal" shooting!!! These AT heros don't actually compete with their 4" groups at 80-100 yards, and it's a good thing for chumps like JesseB, Dave Cousins, Levi, and the rest, because they'd never stand a chance against AT's best!!!


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## steve_77 (Mar 31, 2009)

My apologies for the long post, but I have a few questions.. When it comes to helical fetching for 2" blazers it looks like most here are using the AZ easy fletch mini, as opposed to the bitzenberger (which I thought was the industry standard) is there any reason why? 

Secondly I was curious what others saying about smaller arrows (victory vap 350 [0.166] with blazer style [Flex Fletch HP-200] vanes) not needing helical fetching. When using these small shafts in conjunction with Firenock outset and 125gn mechanical broadsheet is helical fetching really needed and if so how much? 

I'm sure only experimentation would be super conclusive, but was just trying to get general feel for what to start with but also conserned with drag on such a small shaft. I have relatively short draw length and I would like to have as much speed as possible so it's relatively flat shooting at extended ranges. And am willing to sacrifice a bit of speed In terms of the fletching for additional stability but don't want to make the fetching so extreme that it slows too much and ruins the flat trajectory I'm looking for how does one even begin to figure out where to start with fetching angle on small shafts?


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## jakep567 (Feb 19, 2014)

nestly said:


> I'd bet you a nickel that he does not follow his own "tip", and that his arrows bareshaft CCW/Left (because I've yet to see a bow with a clockwise twisted string that didn't clock left). note the right offset/helical in the pic


This is a fresh practice picture at foley. 
Why do you think he went with a left straight offset?
Making up 5 new arrows with new bow and blade rest
Wondering what way i should go?


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

steve_77 said:


> My apologies for the long post, but I have a few questions.. When it comes to helical fetching for 2" blazers it looks like most here are using the AZ easy fletch mini, as opposed to the bitzenberger (which I thought was the industry standard) is there any reason why?
> 
> Secondly I was curious what others saying about smaller arrows (victory vap 350 [0.166] with blazer style [Flex Fletch HP-200] vanes) not needing helical fetching. When using these small shafts in conjunction with Firenock outset and 125gn mechanical broadsheet is helical fetching really needed and if so how much?
> 
> I'm sure only experimentation would be super conclusive, but was just trying to get general feel for what to start with but also conserned with drag on such a small shaft. I have relatively short draw length and I would like to have as much speed as possible so it's relatively flat shooting at extended ranges. And am willing to sacrifice a bit of speed In terms of the fletching for additional stability but don't want to make the fetching so extreme that it slows too much and ruins the flat trajectory I'm looking for how does one even begin to figure out where to start with fetching angle on small shafts?



A lot of people have trouble setting up the bitz for good vane base contact with a lot of helical. If you buy the zenith upgrade kit (60X sells them now) you can put on all the helical you'd like with precision. The kit gives more precise indexing (it doesn't use the nock ears to place the arrow) but the reason it works better for helical is the hook that holds the shaft becomes adjustable. This allows the shaft to be moved up or down to meet the clamp consistently around the shaft. If you think about it, different shaft diameters will sit in the stock bitz hook with differing angles, the zenith kit fixes this. I have the Arizona and frankly find its only advantage to be speed. It is not consistent enough for me.
Can't help with your other questions.


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## Flatwoodshunter (Feb 3, 2013)

If you are only going to shot field points, a straight fletched vane is OK. Straight fletched vanes may work OK with some mechanical broadheads. If you are going to shoot a fixed blade broadhead a helical fletched vane it definitely better. Not enough speed loss to notice.


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## steve_77 (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for the heads up on the upgrade kit. 

I guess a better question would be since on the bitz the clamp has a fixed curve, and since blazers are relatively small, (and hence very little helical offset) would one get more spin on smaller arrow shafts (ie victory vap 350) with 4 fletchings instead... 

Would 4 (2") vanes (as opposed to 3) 2" vanes impart more spin without the additional drag of longer(3") 3 vane setup? Or would it be better to find/use three longer vanes (3" or 3.6") as opposed to three 2" vanes?

Note: PSE Dream Season EVO, with 28" Victory Vap shafts, Firenock outserts, and 125gn killzone mechanical broadheads; (draw length is 26.5")


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jakep567 said:


> This is a fresh practice picture at foley.
> Why do you think he went with a left straight offset?
> Making up 5 new arrows with new bow and blade rest
> Wondering what way i should go?


Fletch your arrows any way you want. If having a straight clamp it's pretty easy to fletch up 2 or 3 arrows with a right offset and 2 or 3 arrows with a left offset. Then shoot for accuracy and grouping. This way you can prove it to yourself.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

i went and clocked with bareshafts. clockwise. i run a right helical. guess i got lucky. i shot a bunch of bareshafts, i had a dozen made up awaiting some new colored vanes to arrive. they all clocked the same. was hoping one would spine CCW, but they didnt. interesting enough i had to try it out.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

IF you go on Bow Life and read about Levi’s hunting setup. He tells you how and why he fletched his arrows the way he does for hunting. He says he uses a 2 or 3 degree offset. Because he likes to practice out to 120yds and he gets more range with a offset vane. But he also says if your a guy that just hunts at 50-60yds a helical vane will steer your arrow better with broadheads. 

I have fletched my own arrows for 30yrs and have tried every vane length, type, configuration, straight , offset, helical and 3 or 4 fletch over the years. I personally don’t believe you can spin a arrow to fast because I have never seen it. I have shot 4 fletch 4in feathers with as much helical as I could get at 300fps. The arrow spun so fast it sounded like a buzz saw going thru the air. But you could screw any fixed head you wanted on there and they shot perfect. I fletch all my hunting arrows now with blazers with the 6 degree helical AZ mini and they fly great. I personally even like my 3d target arrows fletched helical. The only down side is it you shoot with a bunch of good guys you will have more vanes shot thru or shot off. From what I have seen helical fletch does do better in the wind than straight or offset. The only down side to helical fletch. Is a little more drop at long distance because the arrow spinning faster is slowing down a little faster. Also depending on vanes used the arrow may be a little noisier in flight. 

A helical fletch steers better, groups better, fights the wind better, drops a little more at distance and is a little noisier flying thru the air. That’s my opinion anyway and won’t fletch a hunting arrow any other way. I also believe form is a lot more critical with a fixed blade broadhead. I believe a average hunter shooting out of a treestand or a ground blind with a fixed blade broadhead. Will see better results with a helical fletch and a faster spinning arrow.


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

573mms said:


> IF you go on Bow Life and read about Levi’s hunting setup. He tells you how and why he fletched his arrows the way he does for hunting. He says he uses a 2 or 3 degree offset. Because he likes to practice out to 120yds and he gets more range with a offset vane. But he also says if your a guy that just hunts at 50-60yds a helical vane will steer your arrow better with broadheads.
> 
> I have fletched my own arrows for 30yrs and have tried every vane length, type, configuration, straight , offset, helical and 3 or 4 fletch over the years. I personally don’t believe you can spin a arrow to fast because I have never seen it. I have shot 4 fletch 4in feathers with as much helical as I could get at 300fps. The arrow spun so fast it sounded like a buzz saw going thru the air. But you could screw any fixed head you wanted on there and they shot perfect. I fletch all my hunting arrows now with blazers with the 6 degree helical AZ mini and they fly great. I personally even like my 3d target arrows fletched helical. The only down side is it you shoot with a bunch of good guys you will have more vanes shot thru or shot off. From what I have seen helical fletch does do better in the wind than straight or offset. The only down side to helical fletch. Is a little more drop at long distance because the arrow spinning faster is slowing down a little faster. Also depending on vanes used the arrow may be a little noisier in flight.
> 
> A helical fletch steers better, groups better, fights the wind better, drops a little more at distance and is a little noisier flying thru the air. That’s my opinion anyway and won’t fletch a hunting arrow any other way. I also believe form is a lot more critical with a fixed blade broadhead. I believe a average hunter shooting out of a treestand or a ground blind with a fixed blade broadhead. Will see better results with a helical fletch and a faster spinning arrow.


Totally agree. Helical only here, left wing, feathers. As far as noise, IMHO is not a factor as your bow makes way more noise than a vane.
Lastly IMHO going with how an arrow naturaly turns is a moot thing to 99.9% shooters out there. They will see no advantage to fletching an arrow according to "clocking".


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jaximus said:


> i went and clocked with bareshafts. clockwise. i run a right helical. guess i got lucky. i shot a bunch of bareshafts, i had a dozen made up awaiting some new colored vanes to arrive. they all clocked the same. was hoping one would spine CCW, but they didnt. interesting enough i had to try it out.


What distance? I started close, 3 feet, and moved back 2 feet for each shot after. 11 feet to turn 1/2 revolution ccw. So not all that much force.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jaximus said:


> i went and clocked with bareshafts. clockwise. i run a right helical. guess i got lucky. i shot a bunch of bareshafts, i had a dozen made up awaiting some new colored vanes to arrive. they all clocked the same. was hoping one would spine CCW, but they didnt. interesting enough i had to try it out.


Picture wouldn't load - so tried again later. Red vane turning ccw to start and then turn cw actually before 9 feet


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

so, i just was messing around in my basement range. i had my pile of bareshaft gold tips i was messing with. with gold tip nocks they spun clockwise at twice the rate of the same arrows with bohning blazer double lock nocks. gold tip nocks were 180 degrees at 27ft and bohnings were only 90degrees. both clockwise. so how much is atributed to the arrow and how much the nock?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Dale_B1 said:


> Lastly IMHO going with how an arrow naturaly turns is a moot thing to 99.9% shooters out there. They will see no advantage to fletching an arrow according to "clocking".


Not saying I disagree, but I find it odd that some stress the importance of spin, yet seem unconcerned that their arrow may not be spinning for the first 1/3 of its flight because its fletched the "wrong" way? 



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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Not saying I disagree, but I find it odd that some stress the importance of spin, yet seem unconcerned that their arrow may not be spinning for the first 1/3 of its flight because its fletched the "wrong" way?
> Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk


Nestly, could you explain a bit more, the not spinning for the first 1/3 of it's flight?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Nestly, could you explain a bit more, the not spinning for the first 1/3 of it's flight?


In 2016, shortly after the Thacker inspired "clocking" thread, I did a series of tests including one where I shot 3 arrows (Left, Bare, Right) at 2 foot increments from 6 feet to 20 feet. All 3 turned about 45 degrees CCW at 6 feet. The LEFT had a pretty consistent CCW rotation at each increment, ending up at 1-1/4 turns at 20 feet. The BS also had a pretty consistent CCW rotation, although slower, and ended up at about 1/2 turn at 20 feet. The RIGHT just "hung" at 45 degrees CCW all the way to 16 feet, and by 20 feet had a net rotation of ZERO degrees, meaning it never turned more than 1/8th turn left or right out to 20 feet. 20 feet is 1/3 of 20yards (roughly the average shot distance). The video is posted earlier n this topic.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> In 2016, shortly after the Thacker inspired "clocking" thread, I did a series of tests including one where I shot 3 arrows (Left, Bare, Right) at 2 foot increments from 6 feet to 20 feet. All 3 turned about 45 degrees CCW at 6 feet. The LEFT had a pretty consistent CCW rotation at each increment, ending up at 1-1/4 turns at 20 feet. The BS also had a pretty consistent CCW rotation, although slower, and ended up at about 1/2 turn at 20 feet. The RIGHT just "hung" at 45 degrees CCW all the way to 16 feet, and by 20 feet had a net rotation of ZERO degrees, meaning it never turned more than 1/8th turn left or right out to 20 feet. 20 feet is 1/3 of 20yards (roughly the average shot distance). The video is posted earlier n this topic.


We're not too far apart. My pictures above; Bare shaft; 1st arrow is 3 feet, then 5, 7, 9, and 11 feet. 1 3/4" Shield cut set to helical (which ain't a bunch with a short vane); 3 feet, then 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 and 21 feet. I ran out of room, but seem 23 would have gave 1 full revolution. 
Bow speed; 284 fps.

Like you mostly likely did, I shot more than what shows just to check back to each shot and then maybe a 3rd ever so often. Bunch of shooting to show so little...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> We're not too far apart. My pictures above; Bare shaft; 1st arrow is 3 feet, then 5, 7, 9, and 11 feet. 1 3/4" Shield cut set to helical (which ain't a bunch with a short vane); 3 feet, then 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 and 21 feet. I ran out of room, but seem 23 would have gave 1 full revolution.
> Bow speed; 284 fps.
> 
> Like you mostly likely did, I shot more than what shows just to check back to each shot and then maybe a 3rd ever so often. Bunch of shooting to show so little...



Good test.. good info.
Incidentally, I shot those "test arrows" at a whole bunch of Field rounds (112 arrows / distance 20ft to 80 yards) In "theory" it would seem logical for the Left arrows to shoot better since they started spinning sooner and kept spinning the same direction. "Realty" however was that over the course of many scored rounds, the RIGHT fletched arrows that are basically flying like a knuckle ball for the first 16-20 feet performed better.. So much for "theory"...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Why do you feel the right fletched are flying so poorly ? 

That’s the part I would have to differ in with my testing. I can literally get a bullet hole with a bareshaft at all the varying distances back to 20 feet. Then take that same bareshaft and fletch it with a right helical and bullet holes still hold true at all the distances back to 20 ft. Then take that same arrow and re fletch with left helical and again same bullet holes at the same distances back to 20 ft. 

I have some Nano RZ’s I’m going to run half left helical and the other half right just to see how things pan out on a couple 900 round shoots this year. 

Maybe something will stand out and I lean more to left helical, we shall see. 

Maybe going in the direction of bareshafts will show a little more forgiveness if things aren’t ideal with grip, bow tune etc. If so, I would probably always go left. 

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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> Why do you feel the right fletched are flying so poorly ?


If you're asking me, I don't feel the right fletched are flying poorly..... they're flying fine, they're just not "spinning" immediately like the lefts do.
IMO, spin rate is another one of those things that's over-rated, at least with target arrows, which admittedly is where the vast majority of my testing and experience comes from. 
Like I've said before, people (including myself) can theorize and rationalize why so-and-so should be better, but often when it's put to an actual test, it doesn't play out that way... which is why I like to test as much as I can... it helps me figure out what make a difference, and what doesn't. I do accept that not everyone will necessarily come to the same conclusion because there are a lot of variables from person to person, and setup to setup.

You've tested left vs right an apparently found no difference. I've tested left vs right and found only minor differences. I have always developed new arrows by testing them fletched both left and right, and I'll continue to do that.... but as for which way the BS "clocks" I don't care because I haven't found that to be the determining factor in whether a particular bow/arrow works better fletched left or right.


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## Mr One-9 (Feb 11, 2016)

SonnyThomas said:


> Basically, no a straight fletched arrow doesn't spin as per sa. Doesn't make any difference right or left offset or helical, but said is not to mix right and left fletched arrows. I don't have a felt hand clamp so can't tell you for sure. Now if you listen the "you gotta" crowd you're suppose to fletch according to how your bare shaft spins coming out of your bow < that probably laid a bunch on your


Left or right depends on equipment 1st and preference 2nd. I used to shoot toxics and I was told being a lefty I needed to shoot left helical. Truth is with those heads and most mechs it didn't matter. I changed to the single bevel dirtnaps. They are beveled to spin to the right. My left fletch fought against the bh and put a nice entrance wound in my shed. The shot looked like the movie wanted, where they curved the bullet around the bodies and into the target. Long story short, match the fletching with whatever the broadhead is doing. Imagine front and rear steering, if you want to achieve a straight line front and back need to match.


Side note, the higher the fps and the stiffer the spine, the more helical you need (as far as fixed bh). I achieved a 7 deg helical with a 2" vane on an easton hexx, but it took 5 1/2 hours to fletch 2 arrows. I also can't get my bh to fly true to the field tips. That amount of helical is what was needed to keep those arrows from drifting at speed (description in signature). I am steady at 2" right and 3" down from my fp. That's steady whether I'm at 20 or 140. It's a pain to get this type of set up I have, but IMO well worth it. I haven't had a shot over 55 but the fletching rotation along with the bh spin has granted nothing but pass through shots so far.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

419fps? I'm calling bull.


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## archeryhunterME (Feb 12, 2006)

skynight said:


> 419fps? I'm calling bull.


impossible with that arrow weight and that bow to get 419. 319 is very believable


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Prazdude said:


> I am looking for some input on fletching arrows. As I am a new novice at archery (again), I have sighted my bow in at 10, 20 and 30 yards. Luckily, I have the opportunity to practice my 10 and 20 yard shots nightly at a part time job that I have. But, as it applies to fletching, will it hurt me to just shoot straight fletching vs. a 1 or 2 degree helical. I have watched too many videos that argue both will work. I just don't want to waste money that I don't need to spend. Thank you in advance.


sure u have probably fletched up by now, a lot of info in this thread spin rates/clocking etc etc.

Its true you need to find what works for your set up/distance.

If field/target points being used, testing done by james park with hooter shooter found IIRC a 1.5 degree offset to group best at up to and including 90m. This would be with 3 vanes between 1.5 and 2" on a x10/pro tour arrow around 350 grains.

I have also found best results at 90m with no more than 2 degree offset. although less than 70m I couldn't see much difference between a small and a large (3-5 degree) offset

On 3 x 4" vanes 550 grain arrow, at 20yds a 1 degree offset has worked best for me.

if you are using broadheads then maybe more offset or helical would be beneficial, unfortunately you just got to experiment for your own set up.


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## Jsandals (Jan 6, 2022)

I wish the Arizona Ez fletch could tell you degree of helical by length on the feather/vane. I can’t find a table anywhere


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## Tolbnd (Feb 11, 2020)

Jsandals said:


> I wish the Arizona Ez fletch could tell you degree of helical by length on the feather/vane. I can’t find a table anywhere


Nope. Go make your own thread. Don't necro a 4 year old thread for a new topic.


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