# Relaxing at full draw...



## Slingshot

Could be as simple as hand position, setting the hinge speed to keep your release hand more vertical.

You are going to have pressure on your index finger from drawing the bow, but you can change the drawing pressure by holding more weight on the thumb peg.

I don't change the pressure on my release at all, no conscious relaxation of the index finger. By changing the setting on the release you can draw it with much more even pressure across your entire hand.

You can shoot the release a bunch of different ways, I strictly use scapular rotation. My hand does not move once I anchor and hit the click, as my back starts moving it turns my hand slightly and the release trips.


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## cbrunson

You have to keep pulling. My release doesn't go off clean if I try to relax too much


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## bowtecha

Slingshot said:


> Could be as simple as hand position, setting the hinge speed to keep your release hand more vertical.
> 
> You are going to have pressure on your index finger from drawing the bow, but you can change the drawing pressure by holding more weight on the thumb peg.
> 
> I don't change the pressure on my release at all, no conscious relaxation of the index finger. By changing the setting on the release you can draw it with much more even pressure across your entire hand.
> 
> You can shoot the release a bunch of different ways, I strictly use scapular rotation. My hand does not move once I anchor and hit the click, as my back starts moving it turns my hand slightly and the release trips.


I've tried that method but it seems if I JUST try and use my back, my shot will go off but my dot will be all over the place.



cbrunson said:


> You have to keep pulling. My release doesn't go off clean if I try to relax too much


But you are supposed to relax at full draw. Am I right? You want as LITTLE muscle influence in your form as possible correct?

I'm just trying to figure this out, Im not happy with my shooting and have a goal to become a better shot, but I'm starting to get frustrated. I LOVE archery but it really sucks when you start getting frustrated.


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## subconsciously

bowtecha said:


> Alright I've heard this said SOOOOOOOOOOO much and I still can't seem to get this whole relaxing thing down...
> 
> Especially the whole relaxing of my release side index finger, I am having ALOT of trouble relaxing...sounds so stupid it's ridiculous...I'm starting to get a little frustrated to be honest...
> 
> I'm thinking too much and NOT keeping it simple as it should be..unfortunately I'm just wired that way and tend to over think everything I do...
> 
> I will be starting to work with a coach here in about a month so I'm sure that will help but at this time I kind of have to get the help of AT.
> 
> So at full draw relaxing yet maintaining a strong shot seems to be completely contradicting ideas in my brain..
> 
> Especially when using a hinge I'm struggling with this and my shot execution is hanging up because I end up keeping that index finger pretty tense.
> 
> If I relax with those spirals I find my self creeping out of the valley at times and other times the shot breaks very clean..
> 
> Please, if you have any helpful information PLEASE HELP...like I said I am getting very frustrated and I know this isn't that tough of a thing to do, but it just hasn't clicked in my brain yet apparently...


Your not staying in your back. Back tension starts on the draw and must increase through the shot. Once you come to anchor, your back tension should have already started. Bleed the draw arm down like a hydraulic jack into the back. At any time back tensions stops it's the draw arm that has to pick up the slack. BAM! Tension back in the draw arm. Once BT is stopped it it extremely difficult to restart properly. You can't relax the hand unless you relax your draw arm. 



.02


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## subconsciously

Execution is angular. Not linear.


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## bowtecha

subconsciously said:


> Your not staying in your back. Back tension starts on the draw and must increase through the shot. Once you come to anchor, your back tension should have already started. Bleed the draw arm down like a hydraulic jack into the back. At any time back tensions stops it's the draw arm that has to pick up the slack. BAM! Tension back in the draw arm. Once BT is stopped it it extremely difficult to restart properly. You can't relax the hand unless you relax your draw arm.
> 
> 
> 
> .02


Yeah I've noticed that, I am a superstar when it comes to stopping and starting my execution...it sucks.

So your basically wanting your release elbow to come down and back behind?

I can do it fine without pausing without a sight but than you add on the element of the scope and dot and I tend to freeze up...

Thinking I should also maybe try out shooting with a click...


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## subconsciously

I know the trouble you are having because I fought it for 2 years almost. Only a few months back did the light go off in my head!! ding ding ding. Once BT starts it can't stop. Try to keep the forearm and bicep out of the draw cycle. Lead the draw with the elbow. An angular draw will help you get the back incorporated to help quicker set up your BT. 

When relaxed and BT (LAN2) is used properly, good follow through will be almost a given. 

Your gonna have to start with the short game program. It works. Your gonna have to learn to stay calm and relax in the center.


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## subconsciously

Keep your shot process simple. It truly is very simple. We tend to over complicate it.


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## bowtecha

subconsciously said:


> Keep your shot process simple. It truly is very simple. *We tend to over complicate it.*


Again, also a ROCKSTAR at this especially lol

I'm hoping it clicks soon cuz I don't want to get frustrated to the point where I just want to give it up..


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## SonnyThomas

Contact Padgett in here and ask for his hinge write up.. And what was said above, yes, back tension is present and in most instances of the release warm to hot, just holding that tension and releasing the thumb peg the release will fire.

Relaxing.... Yes, you can relax, but controlled. Say like you're in a holding pattern. You get on target, things slow down, you get to aiming and then think tension.

Padgett has some tips, so stick with him...

Learning back tension. Suggest to me by Doug or Eric Springer (Stanislawski) was to start with low poundage, get going and increase draw weight to where you have control... Going beyond what you can handle isn't desired.....


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## bowtecha

SonnyThomas said:


> Contact Padgett in here and ask for his hinge write up.. And what was said above, yes, back tension is present and in most instances of the release warm to hot, just holding that tension and releasing the thumb peg the release will fire.
> 
> Relaxing.... Yes, you can relax, but controlled. Say like you're in a holding pattern. You get on target, things slow down, you get to aiming and then think tension.
> 
> Padgett has some tips, so stick with him...
> 
> Learning back tension. Suggest to me by Doug or Eric Springer (Stanislawski) was to start with low poundage, get going and increase draw weight to where you have control... Going beyond what you can handle isn't desired.....


THAT'S WHAT'S FRUSTRATING!!! I've had padgett send me his firing engine write up's among with others he had...I also am only shooting like 49-50#

Lol I'm pretty much at a loss here..

It's not that I can't fire a hinge, I can fire a hinge multiple different ways, but it's just not as consistent timing as I'd like it to be...

Also brings up another issue...when I start getting fatigued my bow shoulder seems to collapse, especially if I end up holding for longer than 5-6 seconds..sometimes I feel my DL may be TOO short..


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## nuts&bolts

bowtecha said:


> THAT'S WHAT'S FRUSTRATING!!! I've had padgett send me his firing engine write up's among with others he had...I also am only shooting like 49-50#
> 
> Lol I'm pretty much at a loss here..
> 
> It's not that I can't fire a hinge, I can fire a hinge multiple different ways, but it's just not as consistent timing as I'd like it to be...
> 
> Also brings up another issue...when I start getting fatigued my bow shoulder seems to collapse, especially if I end up holding for longer than 5-6 seconds..sometimes I feel my DL may be TOO short..


Then LENGTHEN IT and stick with the longer DL for 30 days and a minimum of 1000 shots.

Enough with the excuses and start the hard work of training
your brain.

Do anything 1000 times...
you will develop a groove.
Test your accuracy after 30 days
test your accuracy after 1000 shots
doing exactly as subconsciously explained to you.

Report back after 1000 shots.


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## N7709K

I think what may be happening is relaxing against the bow is being confused with stayin relaxed(no tense, soft hands, shoulders down). During the shot you don't relax the tension between the halves and the bow- that builds until the release breaks. The hands need to be relaxed as do the arms and the shoulders need to be in a "relaxed" position(when you let your shoulders just sit where they feel relaxed, not relax the pressure during the shot). 

How much blank bale are you shooting? You need to pick ONE way to shoot your hinge and stick it out with that one way- not ten different ways. When you miss an x, look at the reason why, NOT change releases. When you start working with your coach kick the padgett stuff to the curb and stick with what you and your coach setup; yes it will take time to master, and yes you will see scores fluctuate but that is all part of learning and mastering the process. Timing comes with consistent shots and running the same shot every time- you gotta learn to shoot the bow before you need to concern yourself with how to score and how to aim.


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## Ray knight

Is it possible your bow is too heavy? Not the draw weight, the full rig. For the heck of it, remove all your stabs and see if it feels better and more relaxed. Start with zero weight on the bars and add a little bit at a time until it feels hard to get on target then go back one step. Worth a shot!


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## Slingshot

Another thing.....

You have to let go of control, accept that your not going to know exactly when the shots gonna break. 

Once it starts it can't stop, trust you shot sequence and aim. What helped me was shooting short games 5 yards, shoot until you can put 60 arrows into the same hole. 

Your sight picture can really mess you up, to much movement you won't let the shot run. Make sure at full draw you can hold in the middle for at least 5 seconds, your goal is 60 arrows in the same hole.


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## Ned250

I know exactly what you're going through... Guys are going to crucify me for suggesting a release to cure a problem, but it fixed me. Scott Backspin.

I had the same struggles - index finger pressure was never consistent. I was chasing my tail on getting a repeatable process down. A .006" clicker was taking an eternity to fire at times because I dug in with my index finger so much. When the backspin came out, it was a light bulb moment for me. Having your index finger on a bearing takes the index finger pressure completely out of the picture. Now the .006" clicker is getting to be too hot.

Another thing you might want to look at is # of fingers. Are you shooting 4 fingers or 3? I noticed a big change in how the release fired when I dropped down from 4 fingers to 3. By letting my pinky drop down towards my thumb (I'm almost a mirror image to Nathan Brooks style), it created a better hand angle that helped with firing the hinge more consistently.

The shallow grip also helped me find a 'hotter' pull. Burying the release deep made the thing slow as molasses.


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## SonnyThomas

Good information so far....don't know about the weight of the bow as in heavy. My bow weighs about 8 pounds and I don't feel it when at full draw....but then I built up to 8 pounds, just didn't slap on the weight....

If something not quite right in bow fit, yes, this doesn't help.... Draw length too long, peep not positioned properly, hand set, bow arm over extended and so on....

Draw length too short, this is only getting use the bow arm just so - chicken wing like this "V". If all else is correct it should allow good firing and follow through.
Told this so many times I get frustrated; Little woman, not 5 foot tall, draw length 23". Me, 5'10', BP 5'8", TY 6', her husband, 6'3" - we all shot her bow and slaughter the X ring from 20 yards. All we did was maintain good form, anchored as we usually do and bent our bow arm for fit.


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## Fury90flier

the issue from what I can see is a simple one...you simply don't know what it feels like for that relaxed technique.

Try this.

do this sitting
raise both arms to shoulder level
fold them at the elbow so that your hands are at your chest
with your anchor hand, hook your fingers as if you're going to draw a bow with no release
now with your bow hand- start pulling the hooked fingers---but try to keep your draw hand in the same place. (hint- do not pull back with the draw hand, just keep it in place)

what you're trying to feel for is what muscles it takes to keep that draw hand in-place....
you DON'T want to feel your bicepts
you DON'T want to feel your forearm
you DON'T want to feel your shoulder

You DO want to feel your back.

What you'll find is that you probably will be wanting to tighten shoulders, forearm, bicept and there will be some tension there but you can minimize it greatly- just takes practice.

Hint- it all starts with a relaxed drawhand...the rest seem to follow.

The purpose of the exercies is to simply learn how the muscles feel when tense and relaxed. During this exercise you'll learn how/what to relax and when.


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## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier has an excellent exercise.

Here is MY version.

1) stand close to any wall, refrigerator door...any vertical surface

2) release side arm, in a PRETEND full draw position (no bow, nothing in your hands)

3) put your elbow on the vertical surface....say a wall...adjust where you are standing so the elbow (upper arm in the pretend full draw position) 
....so your elbow touches the wall

4) TRY and PUSH your elbow THROUGH the wall, with say 15-20 pounds of force...you are trying to SWING your upper arm around your shoulder
....you are applying PRESSURE with your elbow by trying to rotate your upper arm, around your shoulder (like swinging a baseball bat)
....your right UPPER arm is the baseball bat
....your are TRYING to swing your upper arm/elbow THROUGH the wall...use 20 lbs of SWINGING pressure

5) now, at the SAME TIME, SQUEEZE your right hand into a TIGHT FIST...so TIGHT, your hand is shaking...your forearm is shaking..cuz you are SQUEEZING so tight

HOLD this for 30 seconds


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## nuts&bolts

Now,
after 30 seconds of trying to swing your RIGHT SIDE upper arm to SWING your right elbow THROUGH the wall,
with about 20 lbs of SWINGING PRESSURE

and
at the SAME TIME,
you are squeezing your release hand with SOOO MUCH TENSION,
your release hand is shaking,
your right FOREARM is shaking.....


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## nuts&bolts

ALL of a sudden,
completely relax your release hand fingers...

allow your right wrist to completely relax,
the weight of your right hand drops your wrist,
while your forearm is still LEVEL

when your fingers are loose and relaxed,
and the wrist is relaxed,
sooooooo relaxed,
your release hand bends your wrist
so your hand hangs loosely and points GENERALLY towards the floor....

when the HAND is relaxed,
then,
the forearm MUST also be relaxed.

But,
with this COMPLETELY relaxed release hand,
you MUST STILL PUSH and try TO ROTATE YOUR RIGHT UPPER ARM THROUGH THE WALL,
like swinging a bat,
you are TRYING TO SWING YOUR RIGHT UPPER ARM THROUGH THE WALL,
you are TRYING TO SWING YOUR RIGHT UPPER ARM AROUND your shoulder joint...

with the COMPLETELY relaxed release hand.

HOLD that for 15 MINUTES,
relaxed release hand,
relaxed RELEASE WRIST
and
TRYING to SWING YOUR UPPER ARM to ROTATE YOUR ELBOW around your shoulder, THROUGH THE WALL.

HOLD THAT for 30 MINUTES
and you will FEEL the muscles that Fury90flier
is trying to teach you about.


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## nuts&bolts

To GET to full draw,
with a hinge release,
you MUST use the finger muscles
and the hand muscles
and the wrist muscles
and the forearm muscles
and the elbow muscles
and the upper arm muscles
and the middle back muscles...

to pull the d-loop back to full draw.

THIS is the part of the PUSHING the wall exercise,
the FIRST PART,
where
you try and ROTATE the elbow and upper arm THROUGH the wall, with 20 POUNDS of pressure,

and
you also at the SAME TIME,
SQUEEZE the RELEASE HAND REALLY HARD
to load up the forearm and upper arm muscles.

FIRST HALF of the ROTATE THROUGH the wall exercise,
SIMULATES PULLING the d-loop to GET TO FULL DRAW.


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## nuts&bolts

SECOND HALF of rotating your upper arm and elbow THROUGH THE WALL,

this part,
simulates WHAT TO DO,
AFTER you get to the point
where you are PULLING 5 POUNDS HEAVIER THAN your holding weight.

THIS is where you have GREAT DIFFICULTY.


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## nuts&bolts

Let's say your HOLDING weight is 12 pounds.

So,
when you pull the d-loop to get to full draw,
DO NOT STOP when you reach 12 pounds of pressure into the wall...

continue pulling the d-loop so you go PAST full draw
and your pulling pressure continues to RISE UP TO 17 POUNDS OF PULLING PRESSURE.


So,
this is JUST A concept,
so you get the idea.

Do not focus on the numbers.

Just pull the d-loop to full draw
and CONTINUE TO PULL
and PULL and PULL
until you get to what you THINK FEELS LIKE 5 POUNDS HEAVIER than full draw.


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## nuts&bolts

When you get to what you think is 5 POUNDS PAST FULL draw,
then,
MAINTAIN THIS PULLING PRESSURE...this 5 POUNDS BEYOND FULL DRAW PULLING FORCE.

BE aggressive.

This is what Michael Braden is explaining in his DVD.

THIS is why Larry Wise is writing about in his EXCELLENT book, Core Archery.

Yes, yes,
nothing new,
just my version of explaining something
so you FINALLY GET IT.


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## nuts&bolts

So,
what about this SECOND half of the ROTATING YOUR upper arm THROUGH the wall exercise?

What is this PART TWO,
after you get to the pulling 5 POUNDS HEAVIER than full draw?


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## nuts&bolts

PART TWO,
yes,
getting to a PULLING PRESSURE that is 5 pounds HEAVIER THAN FULL DRAW,
this is where you have been struggling.

PART TWO,
the SECOND HALF,

AFTER you get to the 5 POUNDS HEAVIER than full draw pulling pressure.

YOU MUST RELAX the forearm...COMPLETELY
You must relax the UPPER ARM..as much as possible.

Like patting your head
and
rubbing your tummy.


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## nuts&bolts

BACK to the ROTATING YOUR upper arm/elbow THROUGH the wall,
HOLDING that for 5 MINUTES
and
then,
you suddenly RELAX the fingers of your release hand
*(HINT...TIE your release to your wrist with some cord)*

You do NOT let go of the release and have the release slam into your riser
and then,
BONK you on the head.


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## ArcherXXX300

I struggle still with pulling. My coach has been basically worthless to help me here. I shoot a super relaxed shot and wait for the shot to go off, but here is the issue with that...when it really counts and I'm nervous it may get punched off slightly or I'll relax and roll my fingers which isn't good. I've lost some of my relaxed execution I taught myself on blind bail through tourneys and not keeping up on my shot routine maintenance. However former Olympic archer may be helping me out he watched me shoot a few arrows last night and knows that I'm relaxing through the shot and not pulling. Does it work the way I currently execute...yeah it is a complete surprise release as long as I only relax. To me pulling was always a conscious effort to where you could tell the shot was being fired...but surprise releases aren't consistent. I personally have still never been sore in my rhomboids and sure as heck can't figure out how to pull with them, my shoulder seems to just want to pivot at the socket...IDK, it drives me mad.


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## nuts&bolts

You DO maintain that PULLING FORCE 5 POUNDS HEAVIER than full draw
and
at the same time,
leave JUST ENOUGH tension to maintain a FISH HOOK shape curl in your fingers.

The KEY for PART TWO
is to let the tension BLEED out of the forearm muscles
and 
the KEY for PART TWO
is to let the tension BLEED out of the upper arm muscles.

PRACTICE PART ONE
and PART TWO
of the exercise Fury90flier talks about.

FINGERS HOOKED together,
and pulling your elbows apart, left to right.

PART TWO is to continue pulling your elbows apart with your back muscles
and take out the arm muscles (relax them).

When you MASTER PART TWO,
then,
after maybe 1000 attempts
of the fingers hooked together...

after maybe 2000 attempts
at the ROTATE YOUR ELBOW THROUGH the WALL exercise
(Part ONE and TWO)...

then,
you will GET it.


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## Fury90flier

Draw?
One thing that has helped me is to learn to draw more with my back.

I draw low then come up. What that does is allow me to rotate into backtension.
with my bowhand low and extended pushing at the target (aimed at target/ground @ 20)- this is where I preset my bow shoulder
as I'm about to draw- more weight is on my front froot
my draw hand is at my opposite front hip pocket of my pants
with the bowarm extended, I keep my shoulder/bicep/wrist tense and draw mostly with my back-- try to move my shoulder blade to my spine--this allows me to NOT pull with my shoulder, forearm, bicep (but they still stay tensioned).

When I get to full draw, drop shoulders, scapula squeezing spine- I can relax my hand a little which causes my shoulder, bicep, forearm to relax a bit...

at anchor, I'm not pulling hard into the wall- just enough to know it's there...too much pressure on the wall causes me to use more forearm and tricep


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## Bowthrow

bowtecha said:


> I've tried that method but it seems if I JUST try and use my back, my shot will go off but my dot will be all over the place.
> 
> 
> But you are supposed to relax at full draw. Am I right? You want as LITTLE muscle influence in your form as possible correct?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure this out, Im not happy with my shooting and have a goal to become a better shot, but I'm starting to get frustrated. I LOVE archery but it really sucks when you start getting frustrated.


The exercises mentioned will surely help you. 

It seems you're confused on how or better yet, what to relax. I'll attempt to explain, key word is attempt. 

As you grip the hinge and begin to pull you have allot of pressure on your index and thumb. Once at full draw there is obviously less holding weight. It takes less muscle power so therefore you don't have to hold as tensely. Next you completely relax your thumb as it's removed from the peg. As you stand there, slowly relax your forearm muscles. As you do you will notice the release beginning to turn on its own. Continue to relax your arm muscles and the shot will fire.


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## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> Draw?
> One thing that has helped me is to learn to draw more with my back.
> 
> I draw low then come up. What that does is allow me to rotate into backtension.
> with my bowhand low and extended pushing at the target (aimed at target/ground @ 20)- this is where I preset my bow shoulder
> as I'm about to draw- more weight is on my front froot
> my draw hand is at my opposite front hip pocket of my pants
> with the bowarm extended, I keep my shoulder/bicep/wrist tense and draw mostly with my back-- try to move my shoulder blade to my spine--this allows me to NOT pull with my shoulder, forearm, bicep (but they still stay tensioned).
> 
> When I get to full draw, drop shoulders, scapula squeezing spine- I can relax my hand a little which causes my shoulder, bicep, forearm to relax a bit...
> 
> at anchor, I'm not pulling hard into the wall- just enough to know it's there...too much pressure on the wall causes me to use more forearm and tricep


Interesting.

Almost exactly like an Olympic recurve shooter.
More weight on FRONT foot, as you are about to pull back.
Excellent.


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## cbrunson

bowtecha said:


> But you are supposed to relax at full draw. Am I right? You want as LITTLE muscle influence in your form as possible correct?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure this out, Im not happy with my shooting and have a goal to become a better shot, but I'm starting to get frustrated. I LOVE archery but it really sucks when you start getting frustrated.


Where did you get the idea to relax at full draw? Spirals are the worst possible choice if you want to relax at full draw. In my opinion, that is what makes them great. They make you hold the weight into the wall. Unless you are under bowed. I know that sounds bass ackwards but if you can relax against the wall, you are not holding enough weight back. Lower the let off until it forces you to keep strong on the stops, if you want a lower peak draw weight. Then if you want to use the relaxing your index finger style, you still have to pull with your back muscles to start the shot. The more you pull, typically the dot movement will slow down and the release will be more smooth and crisp. Just my unprofessional opinion of course.


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## Fury90flier

nuts&bolts said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Almost exactly like an Olympic recurve shooter.
> More weight on FRONT foot, as you are about to pull back.
> Excellent.


Thanks.
Oly Recuve? That's exactly where I got it from.
I shoot recurve as well as compound and found that when I use my Oly style draw- I come to anchor easier, Drawing is easier, holding is easier, keeping my stance balanced is easier....but that's just me. (wish my compound stance could be idential to my recurve- would make everything much easier). 


Pointing the finger? Either do that, or back tension, Or rotate the wrist...pick one.

On pointing the finger:
keep pressure between your thumb on the peg and your middle finger- only use these to fingers to draw the bow- do it slow and with purpose.
your index finger will have little to no pressure on the release. (you can even lift it up off the release)
at anchor, try slightly increasing pressure and decreasing pressure on the thumb peg (feel the rotation/pivot point)...DO NO have the release fire. All you're doing is trying to figure out what the range of motion is (so you get used to it)
.
now, instead of using your thumb to increase/decrease the rotation, use your index finger ((DO NOT LET THE RELEASE FIRE)). Just rotate pressure betwen index and middle finger.

What you'll eventually find is where the pivot point is and how to work around it. Right now, your muscle memory just isn't there so your index finger doesn't know what to do...it needs to be trained along with the rest of the hand.


I took a string, no bow, to start practicing this-- string long enough to go from bowhand to anchor- then I just started getting used to the feel


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## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> Thanks.
> Oly Recuve? That's exactly where I got it from.
> I shoot recurve as well as compound and found that when I use my Oly style draw- I come to anchor easier, Drawing is easier, holding is easier, keeping my stance balanced is easier....but that's just me. (wish my compound stance could be idential to my recurve- would make everything much easier).
> 
> 
> Pointing the finger? Either do that, or back tension, Or rotate the wrist...pick one.
> 
> On pointing the finger:
> keep pressure between your thumb on the peg and your middle finger- only use these to fingers to draw the bow- do it slow and with purpose.
> your index finger will have little to no pressure on the release. (you can even lift it up off the release)
> at anchor, try slightly increasing pressure and decreasing pressure on the thumb peg (feel the rotation/pivot point)...DO NO have the release fire. All you're doing is trying to figure out what the range of motion is (so you get used to it)
> .
> now, instead of using your thumb to increase/decrease the rotation, use your index finger ((DO NOT LET THE RELEASE FIRE)). Just rotate pressure betwen index and middle finger.
> 
> What you'll eventually find is where the pivot point is and how to work around it. Right now, your muscle memory just isn't there so your index finger doesn't know what to do...it needs to be trained along with the rest of the hand.
> 
> 
> I took a string, no bow, to start practicing this-- string long enough to go from bowhand to anchor- then I just started getting used to the feel


Excellent.

I call it the SEE-SAW effect.

Pointer finger side of the release is one side of the SEE-SAW.
Middle finger side of the release handle is other side of the SEE-SAW.


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## miko0618

You should be relaxed at full draw. Relaxed as in you dont feel tension. You should be able to maintain back tension without consciously pulling. I think you maybe adding stress to the shot via the release action.


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## tmorelli

Surprise....I'm with Jacob and Mike. Its not about relaxing...its about incorporating the right muscles and eliminating the wrong ones. 

I need to stay relaxed in my hands, fingers, wrists or I never get it out of my arms. This will cause hang ups...and I've seen that a conscious "relax" command when you hit your anchor leads to loss of back tension and other inconsistencies. Back tension doesn't stop and start. 

Now I'm not ripping the stops off my bow either. By staying relaxed, back tension builds....not excessive pressure in the wall.


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> I think what may be happening is relaxing against the bow is being confused with stayin relaxed(no tense, soft hands, shoulders down). During the shot you don't relax the tension between the halves and the bow- that builds until the release breaks. The hands need to be relaxed as do the arms and the shoulders need to be in a "relaxed" position(when you let your shoulders just sit where they feel relaxed, not relax the pressure during the shot).
> 
> How much blank bale are you shooting? *You need to pick ONE way to shoot your hinge and stick it out with that one way- not ten different ways. When you miss an x, look at the reason why, NOT change releases*. When you start working with your coach kick the padgett stuff to the curb and stick with what you and your coach setup; yes it will take time to master, and yes you will see scores fluctuate but that is all part of learning and mastering the process. Timing comes with consistent shots and running the same shot every time- you gotta learn to shoot the bow before you need to concern yourself with how to score and how to aim.


Yup I hear ya, I FINALLY decided on ONE HINGE and I'm going to stick with it, longhorn pro

Yes, my coach already told me once we start working together he wants me to only work with him, not 10 different people



Ray knight said:


> Is it possible your bow is too heavy? Not the draw weight, the full rig. For the heck of it, remove all your stabs and see if it feels better and more relaxed. Start with zero weight on the bars and add a little bit at a time until it feels hard to get on target then go back one step. Worth a shot!


Nahh it's pretty light, maybe 6.5 pounds ill try and weigh it tomorrow 



Ned250 said:


> I know exactly what you're going through... Guys are going to crucify me for suggesting a release to cure a problem, but it fixed me. Scott Backspin.
> 
> I had the same struggles - index finger pressure was never consistent. I was chasing my tail on getting a repeatable process down. A .006" clicker was taking an eternity to fire at times because I dug in with my index finger so much. When the backspin came out, it was a light bulb moment for me. Having your index finger on a bearing takes the index finger pressure completely out of the picture. Now the .006" clicker is getting to be too hot.
> 
> Another thing you might want to look at is # of fingers. Are you shooting 4 fingers or 3? I noticed a big change in how the release fired when I dropped down from 4 fingers to 3. By letting my pinky drop down towards my thumb (I'm almost a mirror image to Nathan Brooks style), it created a better hand angle that helped with firing the hinge more consistently.
> 
> The shallow grip also helped me find a 'hotter' pull. Burying the release deep made the thing slow as molasses.
> 
> View attachment 1906121


Shooting a 3 finger, never liked 4 fingers.



Fury90flier said:


> the issue from what I can see is a simple one...you simply don't know what it feels like for that relaxed technique.
> 
> Try this.
> 
> do this sitting
> raise both arms to shoulder level
> fold them at the elbow so that your hands are at your chest
> with your anchor hand, hook your fingers as if you're going to draw a bow with no release
> now with your bow hand- start pulling the hooked fingers---but try to keep your draw hand in the same place. (hint- do not pull back with the draw hand, just keep it in place)
> 
> what you're trying to feel for is what muscles it takes to keep that draw hand in-place....
> you DON'T want to feel your bicepts
> you DON'T want to feel your forearm
> you DON'T want to feel your shoulder
> 
> You DO want to feel your back.
> 
> What you'll find is that you probably will be wanting to tighten shoulders, forearm, bicept and there will be some tension there but you can minimize it greatly- just takes practice.
> 
> Hint- it all starts with a relaxed drawhand...the rest seem to follow.
> 
> The purpose of the exercies is to simply learn how the muscles feel when tense and relaxed. During this exercise you'll learn how/what to relax and when.


Thanks, that's actually quite helpful, now if I can apply that to when I have a bow in my hand


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## bowtecha

miko0618 said:


> You should be relaxed at full draw. Relaxed as in you dont feel tension. You should be able to maintain back tension without consciously pulling. I think you maybe adding stress to the shot via the release action.





tmorelli said:


> Surprise....I'm with Jacob and Mike. Its not about relaxing...its about incorporating the right muscles and eliminating the wrong ones.
> 
> I need to stay relaxed in my hands, fingers, wrists or I never get it out of my arms. This will cause hang ups...and I've seen that a conscious "relax" command when you hit your anchor leads to loss of back tension and other inconsistencies. Back tension doesn't stop and start.
> 
> Now I'm not ripping the stops off my bow either. By staying relaxed, back tension builds....not excessive pressure in the wall.


Alright it's SLOWLY starting to make sense to me, now I will try that tomorrow with a bow in my hand and see how it works out


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## KimberTac1911

An exercise that helped me. Do some blank baling. Start drawing bow. When you get close to the wall close your eyes. Take a very deep breath, then hit anchor. Let down you bow. Do this and then work into shot process. I had the same problem. An older man at local shop gave me this info. He watched me for several minutes and pointed out when I wasn't relaxed. Once he noticed I was relaxed he would instruct me to pull with back muscles


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## bowtecha

So heres what I've noticed and this has been pointed out by about a half dozen people, when I start my shot execution or firing engine I start shaking pretty badly, from my bow arm all the way back to my release side...not sure how to fix this, I can't be over bowed, I'm only pulling 52# I feel like it might be something to do with the 65% let-off but I'm not entirely sure...again this is becoming frustrating because I can't hold on target like most can...


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## nuts&bolts

bowtecha said:


> So heres what I've noticed and this has been pointed out by about a half dozen people, when I start my shot execution or firing engine I start shaking pretty badly, from my bow arm all the way back to my release side...not sure how to fix this, I can't be over bowed, I'm only pulling 52# I feel like it might be something to do with the 65% let-off but I'm not entirely sure...again this is becoming frustrating because I can't hold on target like most can...


Post a video clip link.
Upload to YouTube, Only way to help you.


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## bowtecha

nuts&bolts said:


> Post a video clip link.
> Upload to YouTube, Only way to help you.


I will try and get one up as soon as I can, probably won't be for a couple days, possibly Monday


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## KimberTac1911

I had the same problem. I shortened my dl, changed grip some and changed release setting/shot process. I was trying to force shot to much with pushing/pulling. Once draw length was shortened it was much easier to fire/hold onto target


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## bowtecha

KimberTac1911 said:


> I had the same problem. I shortened my dl, changed grip some and changed release setting/shot process. I was trying to force shot to much with pushing/pulling. Once draw length was shortened it was much easier to fire/hold onto target


I would have to say my DL is about spot on right now, POSSIBLY even a TAD short


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## jrdrees

Everyone's experience is a little different, hard to say one should do this and that. Analyzing your own steps forward and backward is key. No doubt we all have had on and off days, seems to be off more than we care to admit. My best days come from drawing and it feels right, anchoring feels right, pin doesn't bounce or hold unusual, shot breaks nice. If this stuff isn't happening I let down, or regret it. I have identified my approx. time frame for shot, and what to look for as a precursor to the shot going awry, otherwise I let it run.


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## KimberTac1911

bowtecha said:


> I would have to say my DL is about spot on right now, POSSIBLY even a TAD short


Maybe add a little bit to dl. Once you post that video nuts and bolts will get you straightened out


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## bowtecha

Ill try to get a video tomorrow but my bow shoulder seems to be slightly collapsing which would explain my shaking...any advice on how to keep that shoulder from collapsing


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## cbrunson

So many things can cause the shoulder to collapse. Both too long and too short draw length can affect it. Foot position, leaning back, weight distribution, fatigue, bow weight, and simply creating the habit of letting it happen. 

Force it down when you are fresh and hold it there. Then analyze the other things. Sometimes a couple twists in or out can help a bunch.


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## nuts&bolts

bowtecha said:


> Ill try to get a video tomorrow but my bow shoulder seems to be slightly collapsing which would explain my shaking...any advice on how to keep that shoulder from collapsing


Post the video,
and then you can get better advice.

The collapsing bow shoulder
and the shaking ARE tied together....along with several other things,
that can only be confirmed in video.


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## Rick!

Why do you feel your DL is correct?


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## hatchettjack

If all else fails just grip it and rip it!


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## N7709K

You getting dl correct by float or by how form looks?


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> You getting dl correct by float or by how form looks?


I got a baseline by measuring, various different methods, it gave me about 27" so I started there and fine tuned it down to about 26.875"

More going off of how form looks, how it feels. Float is SOMEWHAT decent, but I could be better thats or sure.

Starting to second guess this whole indoor shooting, WHEN I decide to keep score I'm doing worse than I have in a long time, hell I threw up like three 4's and even a zero today.....two weeks ago I was doing 298-299 daily, sometimes 300's, hell now I'm lucky if I get 295 blue face....I'm going backwards and I'm ready to call it quits on spot shooting....

I don't want to but I can't STAND shooting like that....it's ridiculous


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## N7709K

ok, so dl isn't fine tuned fully at this point and still needs some adjustments one direction or another to get it to its final position. Loop length may need to be tweaked as well as peep height after the changes are made... that said, at this point its not the first priority. 

Stop shooting 20yds for score; its not doing any good as its only reinforcing the "i have to shoot for scores" portion; shoot blank bale at 20yds if you can't shoot up close but stop shooting scores before it gets worse. Also stop putting the emphasis on a good shot with an x- a good shot is about feel and sight picture, the score comes having the sight zeroed for good shots. Shoot close games to get down the mental pressure of shooting clean games and shoot blank bale to get your form at a point where it is consistent enough for the issues are able to be addressed.


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> ok, so dl isn't fine tuned fully at this point and still needs some adjustments one direction or another to get it to its final position. Loop length may need to be tweaked as well as peep height after the changes are made... that said, at this point its not the first priority.
> 
> Stop shooting 20yds for score; its not doing any good as its only reinforcing the "i have to shoot for scores" portion; shoot blank bale at 20yds if you can't shoot up close but stop shooting scores before it gets worse. Also stop putting the emphasis on a good shot with an x- a good shot is about feel and sight picture, the score comes having the sight zeroed for good shots. Shoot close games to get down the mental pressure of shooting clean games and shoot blank bale to get your form at a point where it is consistent enough for the issues are able to be addressed.


That's why I will do than, just blank bale at 20 yards, cuz I really don't get the opportunity to shoot close games at any of the ranges I goto unfortunately. So ill just shoot at a blank bale than every day for awhile.

How many shots would you recommend a day? Blank bailing at 20...


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## N7709K

i wouldn't go so much for a certain number of shots as i would for a period of time. shoot for 2 or 3 hrs keeping a good rhythm and focus on shooting each shot the same- if they feel different, take longer, hang up, etc let them down and start the shot over again. ideally you'd shoot 120+ per session but its not really of importance right now, its getting your shot down not training for an upcoming shoot


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> i wouldn't go so much for a certain number of shots as i would for a period of time. shoot for 2 or 3 hrs keeping a good rhythm and focus on shooting each shot the same- if they feel different, take longer, hang up, etc let them down and start the shot over again. ideally you'd shoot 120+ per session but its not really of importance right now, its getting your shot down not training for an upcoming shoot


Man...I'm really hoping all of this will help, i love to shoot but I HATE shooting when I suck lol.

One thing this will do I know for a fact is get me away from the temptation of trying to shoot scores..

That's a BIGGGGGG problem for me is consistency, especially on the release end..

How long should I stay blank bailing for? Couple weeks?

I usually shoot 4-5 days a week for about 2 hours


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## N7709K

stay on blank bale until you are consistent and then SLOWLY work shooting close games in. after you are shooting the same shot on a blank bale and up close, slowly work your way back to 20yds a couple yds at a time from 5yds moving back ONLY as the shots are staying consistent- not after 1000 shots, not after shooting a 60x, but after the shots are consistent


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> stay on blank bale until you are consistent and then SLOWLY work shooting close games in. after you are shooting the same shot on a blank bale and up close, slowly work your way back to 20yds a couple yds at a time from 5yds moving back ONLY as the shots are staying consistent- not after 1000 shots, not after shooting a 60x, but after the shots are consistent


Consistency in my release execution is something I struggle with...I'm hoping to get that part figured out..


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## N7709K

Before you worry about bringing scores up your shot needs to be solid- consistent and down well enough that you can tell a good shot from a not so good shot. Inconsistent how? They all feel the same but miss the middle or all feel different?


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> Before you worry about bringing scores up your shot needs to be solid- consistent and down well enough that you can tell a good shot from a not so good shot. Inconsistent how? They all feel the same but miss the middle or all feel different?


Some shots breaks within 2-4 seconds (these are the shots that usually feel the best TO ME), some shots don't break for 6-7 seconds...and I would assume it is a combination of finger placement and seeing my dot come off the middle so I end up pausing my 'firing engine'


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## Bees

bowtecha said:


> Some shots breaks within 2-4 seconds (these are the shots that usually feel the best TO ME), some shots don't break for 6-7 seconds...and I would assume it is a combination of finger placement and seeing my dot come off the middle so I end up pausing my 'firing engine'


Basically your still command shooting the release.
the saying is trust the float and shoot the shot.
so how do you do that?

first you have to buy into, the thought process of the sight pin or whatever your using does not have to be on the X to hit the X.
Next you have to get your float to a manageable level, 
I cannot ignore a big float. 
I had to work on getting my float to a point where I can ignore it and just shoot the shot. 
Not caring if it is on the X or not.

spot on the wall shooting is all about consistency, 
the spot tells you how consistent or inconsistent you are from one shot to the next.

Your fire engine basically has to run itself, with out any input from you after you start it.
that is what the up close bale is all about, getting something to run without conscious thought.
then you start up close learning to aim and execute the fire engine ( learning to release while aiming)
this is the hard part because you have to fight off your desire to command the shot.

for example my last 10 yard game (Sat) was 600 with 55 X's on a Vegas Face.
I have been working on this very thing for awhile now, I would say I have about 50% of my shots are automatic
the other 50% I still want to command them somehow. the 5 lost baby X's were definitely caused by command shooting.
The others well lets just say I have been command shooting for years and I am good at it, but want something better. 
The word effortless comes to mind to describe the automatic shots.


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## ron w

that pause in your firing engine, should be a let down and start your shot over. from the moment of pause on, you are command shooting, or forcing the shot. the let down, make a statement that says,.... "I refuse this set up", to your shot process.....and that teaches your shot process to get on the x and stay there, till the shot breaks, in a more aggressive fashion. it also teaches your shot process, that it's OK to refuse a set up an... "let down"..., rather than force it through to the shot. by your pausing the firing engine and then continuing on with that shot set up, you are telling your shot process, it's OK to "fool around" when it should be "all business" and it's OK to make a shot that most likely will be a miss.


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## ron w

"effortless".....exactly.
when your shot is running well, it should feel like you're doing nothing but aiming, to make the shot break. if you have to think about what it takes to make the shot happen, it's time to let down and start over. if you're thinking about that, you're not thinking about the center of the bull's eye.
if you've ever watched a line of top pros shoot, you'll notice that every once in a while one will let down for what looks like no reason,.....most likely, the reason was exactly this issue....his mind wandered off the center of the bull's eye, because his firing engine wasn't running right. he was "refusing" that set up and telling his shot process exactly that, by letting down......." if you're not going to run right,...you're nor going to be given the opportunity to run". it really doesn't hurt, to even say that to your self, as you let down.


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## N7709K

it may be a finger placement issue- but it is more likely a tension issue and keeping the hands hard among other things. which shots feel better- not where they hit so much as what feels like a better shot? its a very fine line when it comes to slowing the shot and putting the dot back in the middle and just shooting a strong shot; at this point let down the shots that leave the white when you are shooting at a face.

if you have to think about your shot you haven't put enough time behind the bow learning the feel and action; the shot needs to be the subconscious action, not the conscious action.


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> it may be a finger placement issue- but it is more likely a tension issue and keeping the hands hard among other things. which shots feel better- not where they hit so much as what feels like a better shot? its a very fine line when it comes to slowing the shot and putting the dot back in the middle and just shooting a strong shot; at this point let down the shots that leave the white when you are shooting at a face.
> 
> if you have to think about your shot you haven't put enough time behind the bow learning the feel and action; the shot needs to be the subconscious action, not the conscious action.


I would say your spot on, if I had to guess its more of a tension issue in my hand than anything.

Yeah I would say I probably put enough time in behind my bow, I've realistically since ive got into the indoor side of archery probably only put in maybe 5,000 shots give or take


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## ArcherXXX300

I will say this and I don't believe its been said here.

I blind bailed for 30 days straight working on shot execution only and no aiming at all. It was one of the most boring things I ever did but it helped immensely, stuff has gone down hill since I haven't maintained it and I listened to too many people on shot execution when my way worked great for me and now I'm back to the point of needing to go blank bail again and work on form only. I will say that blank bailing working only on shot execution with my eyes closed for 30 days helped me more than anything else I've ever done in archery.

HOWEVER this is true:

"Your scores will go up and down, its a fact. You should be pumped right now that your scores dropped because with some work they will go up beyond where you were. Hopefully you'll reach a high plateau and keep your scores there but they will again inevitably drop again and then they will go back up." Its a vicious cycle that is maddening.


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## TOMMYY01

I hate to admit it, but thanks for this info. I have a 3 finger scott pro advantage . it seemed reaaly good. But I felt that I needed the 4-finger, so I would have full control. Now, it seems that the 3-finger is easier to shoot. I think that also, I need to readjust both releases so I can find it a lot more easier to shoot. trial and error, I guess is the name of the game!!
Thanks again!! Tommy


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## Inc.

Bottom line it's all about trust .Truly Trusting your shot does not come easy don't expect it to come quickly.


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## subconsciously

bowtecha said:


> I would say your spot on, if I had to guess its more of a tension issue in my hand than anything.
> 
> Yeah I would say I probably put enough time in behind my bow, I've realistically since ive got into the indoor side of archery probably only put in maybe 5,000 shots give or take


Tension in the hand = tension in the draw arm. Tension in the draw arm will equate to a linear pull not a angular execution. 

.02


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## bowtecha

subconsciously said:


> Tension in the hand = tension in the draw arm. Tension in the draw arm will equate to a linear pull not a angular execution.
> 
> .02


yeah that's for sure these last couple days ive been using more of my back muscles and relaxing my hand/fingers/forearm and the execution has improved quite a bit.



Inc. said:


> Bottom line it's all about trust .Truly Trusting your shot does not come easy don't expect it to come quickly.


that's for sure, im FINALLY starting to trust my float a bit more, moved my anchor point a little bit further back on my face and it seems I get a more solid anchor and in turn a more repeatable/steady float, so that's definitely helping



ArcherXXX300 said:


> I will say this and I don't believe its been said here.
> 
> I blind bailed for 30 days straight working on shot execution only and no aiming at all. It was one of the most boring things I ever did but it helped immensely, stuff has gone down hill since I haven't maintained it and I listened to too many people on shot execution when my way worked great for me and now I'm back to the point of needing to go blank bail again and work on form only. I will say that blank bailing working only on shot execution with my eyes closed for 30 days helped me more than anything else I've ever done in archery.
> 
> HOWEVER this is true:
> 
> "Your scores will go up and down, its a fact. You should be pumped right now that your scores dropped because with some work they will go up beyond where you were. Hopefully you'll reach a high plateau and keep your scores there *but they will again inevitably drop again and then they will go back up." Its a vicious cycle that is maddening*.


lol no doubt, it is definitely maddening two weeks ago I had a poor attitude and was getting very discouraged.

im back at that 299-300 mark now, of course its a bit of a sloppy x count (42-46X)

I find I produce better shots when shooting the vegas face than I do on the 5 spot, not sure if it is because im only shooting 3 arrows or if it is because I rush my shots a bit more on the blue face as opposed to the vegas face.

another thing that has helped me is not SCORING when practicing on the vegas face, where as when I shoot the blue face im always so tempted to score because I want to see if I can keep up that 299-300 or beat my personal best. 

who knows, all I know is as of right now things are looking up once again :thumbs_up


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## N7709K

Vegas/fita face brings about better shots through having inner 10 as the untilmate goal- you have to put them in big 10 to make it count; on blue face you can get very sloppy but still hit all the x's


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## chevman

As far as scoring...just shoot for say 2 hours at the same target without scoreing and then count the fours or nines depending on witch face you are shooting, when the shooting is done. Seems less stressful this way if scoring bothers you. It does me.


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## bowtecha

N7709K said:


> Vegas/fita face brings about better shots through having inner 10 as the untilmate goal- you have to put them in big 10 to make it count; on blue face you can get very sloppy but still hit all the x's


Its that stupid blue face target I can shoot good shots on a Vegas face but I get on the five spot and I have trouble shooting x's...


chevman said:


> As far as scoring...just shoot for say 2 hours at the same target without scoreing and then count the fours or nines depending on witch face you are shooting, when the shooting is done. Seems less stressful this way if scoring bothers you. It does me.


Yeah thats a good idea


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## Rick!

bowtecha said:


> Its that stupid blue face target I can shoot good shots on a Vegas face but I get on the five spot and I have trouble shooting x's...
> 
> 
> Yeah thats a good idea


I'm not a pro or a coach but I'm in a similar spot u are: an OCD Type A 297-299 shooter with 38-42X average and wanting to get to the next level. 

A Vegas face doesn't have that big X staring you in the face like a 5 spot. 

Let me guess, at 20yds on a 5 spot most of your X's are line burners and not inside outs. When this happens to me, I go back to 10yds and kill the the X - I don't want to see much evidence of an X after a round. (I'm not good enough for single holes yet)

For me, it's a mental thing to be confident enough to murder the X at 20yds. Otherwise, it's hoping my mechanics result in an X. I'm finding mechanics is good for 60% X's and I'm working on the head part to get to 80%.


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## aread

One exercise that seems to help me a little for the tension is to draw, aim & hold as long as I can keep theshot together, then let down. The shaking or trembling is most likely tension from "trying harder". Don't try hard to hold on the X. Try harder to shoot a good shot. 

Be sure to set the parts and pieces of your full draw form as your reach full draw. Things that are set together (as one motion) tend to stay together. If you set this, then that, then the next thing, they tend to come apart on you under stress.

Good luck,
Allen


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## johncraddock445

tagged


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## MiniJCW

Thank you for this thread i have just sat here amazed that most of the things mentioned here i have and still am suffering from. This damn trembling and shaking thing is really getting me down, i spent 3 hours today working on the relaxing thing and by the end of it i was so stressed that i could not mentally function anymore.

I dont want to get trapped into the changing my bow to fix problems coz i am 100% positive that it is me with the problem and it is my poor bow that is suffering from a very inadequate operator at this point in time. I have had a few different coaches look at me when i have been shooting and they say that my DL is great and my form is good. I just seem to suck at the relax bit so far.

The draw muscle exercises WOW thank you for those i am going to get into them ASAP. I must say that every now and then i must get a good draw because the moons seem to align and the float is fantastic, the shot is comfortable, and the X gets hammered, but trying to nail that feeling down seems a challenge at the moment.

To the OP i am with you mate i TOTALLY understand where you are at because i am at the same cross roads, yes there are days that i think why do i bother with this archery thing. But then i get days when this archery thing is on song and i have a blast. So archery is a bit Bipolar for me at this early stage i have almost been doing it for 12 months so i cant expect to be a spot on X killer YET. Each time i pick up my bow i am working on a particular part. Just recently with my near Parkinsons disorder float i have really tried flattening out my release hand and it seems to be making an improvement, studying my float still makes me a little sea sick at times but maybe with some of these draw exercises it just may settle down a bit more.

Thank you to all the posts in this thread i have got an immense amount of good out of them. 
Cheers to all


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## ron w

I had an issue with that as I recently returned to spot shooting after a 5 or 6 year break. my previous bow, a Merlin Super Nova, was a good spot bow with fairly relaxed cam profiles and it allowed me to relax easily at full draw and I was very used to that. 
when I started back into shooting I bought a Supra, and it had considerable more "attitude" just off the stops. well, three times, in the first few weeks of shooting that bow, I releaxed a bit too much, as I would with my Super Nova, and my release went down the lane along with my arrow !!....of course, this had to happen at leagues in front of a full line of shooters....embarrassing to say the least !.


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## Fury90flier

don't you get extra points if you can put your release into the target face?


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## Padgett

Bowtecha, so how are things going with your shooting. My buddy Ken is a new hinge shooter and the big thing I notice with him is we live 3 hours apart and don't really get to shoot together very much so he reads my shooting articles just like you do, the big difference for him is from time to time every couple months or so we get together for a shooting day. Every time we do this his shooting ability goes way up within minutes because I am right there with him to lead him instead of sitting at a keyboard wondering what he is doing.

If there is any way you can find that guy to shoot with it will make the difference for you, good luck and I wish you lived closer so we could shoot.


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## ron w

Fury90flier said:


> don't you get extra points if you can put your release into the target face?


 they usually don't make to the target without at least one bounce, and that really dulls them !.


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