# Low wrist grip, Medium wrist grip High wrist grip.



## redman

What are the pros and cons of each grip shooting a compound and what grip do you use ?


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## ron w

low wrist is considered the best condition, because it releases all the stress in the wrist and allows bone-to -bone contact of the wrist structure for the best repeatability. in order for there to be "bone-to-bone" contact, the wrist must be fully relaxed. if a medium to high wrist position is used, there has to be tension through the wrist to accomplish this and there fore the repeatability of bone-to bone contact cannot be attained.
simply relax your wrist and hand and let if fully compress against the pressure of the bow.


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## SonnyThomas

ron gave as good as it gets, but should have been a known....


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## Padgett

With the compounds we shoot today almost all of them require a low grip because of the almost flat nature of them, the bows of yesteryear forced the high grip you still see with the olympic shooters but for us they are gone.

To me when you look at your hand at full draw and the fact that the entire top half of your hand has nothing but free space behind it that should be what tells you that pushing forward into the grip with any part of your hand above the radius bone where it goes through your thumb muscle is doing nothing but create muscle tension in your forearm. Once your accept this fact and realize that you should have most of the pressure of the bow pushing into your thumb muscle right in front of your radius bone then your grip and front arm will feel so much more relaxed but solid at the same time.


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## Fury90flier

Somewhere on here (edit- actually I think it's in the KSL book or FITA manuals) there is an X-ray of the wrist showing bone alignment of low/high grips--maybe someoen can find it.

It's really a personal thing but in compound you typically use a low grip while recurve you traditionally are going to use a higher grip. My understanding is this difference is due to holding weight...need more linear alignment with the heavier weight of a recurve.


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## ron w

correct !. if you shot a recurve "low wrist", the joint between your thum and hand would last about ten minutes and it would be so sore from the shock, that you wouldn't be able to draw the bow. many people suffered this with even the compounds of years back because they jumped forward on the shot and that unloaded that joint so violently, that it would get traumatic shock injury, that if continued, will develop into arthritis. my own thumb-to-hand joint is arthrihitc from years of shooting conventional limbed compounds.....so much so, that last year I broke down and bought a Supra to replace my trusted old Merlin Super Nova. .....not that the old gal wasn't deserving of a retirement. if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be shooting any more...it was that painful.


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## redman

Thing A Week #12 A "MUST SEE" Sugru grip build from ALC and LCA in general archery


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## SonnyThomas

You know, people have been tinkering with riser grips for years.


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## grantmac

I shoot barebow recurve with low compound-like grip. It puts the bow shoulder in a lower position which is an issue with the alignment required for barebow.
When I shoot freestyle recurve then I use a medium/high grip.

I believe that the relationship between bow mass, holding weight and anchor position is what determines the most effective grip angle. Lower holding weight, higher anchor and higher mass all seem to drive a lower grip angle being optimum.

-Grant


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## SonnyThomas

redman said:


> Thing A Week #12 A "MUST SEE" Sugru grip build from ALC and LCA in general archery


Expected a come back and didn't get it.... I'll have to dig through bows in the back room of the shop. Now, consider the bows in the back room are pushing 25 to 30 years back. There are compounds with molded "recurve" grips, thumb groove and all. One had a line cut in the Plastic or whatever was used. The stuff is hard. I wondered of the cut lines and remembered a old article. I think I have it yet. Archer's went so far as to tattoo a line, not big, just a tad, to match up with the line that cut in their riser grip. Another bow, I believe went for a Wall Hanger, had thumb and finger grooves and all in the attempt to recreate the same grip each and every time.


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## Pete53

i would like to add just one little thing Terry Ragsdale who in the past was a very good archer in target archery ,used a high wrist when he shot archery but he had super strong wrist and was just a rock shooting archery.but i have tried myself using the high wrist and to be honest its a very difficult way to hold a bow and my scores have always been better with a low wrist,i have watched alot of good archer`s they all have been shooting low wrist,i think the newer bows are built for a low wrist like someone said and newer bows seem to have a smaller grip which help to be able to use a low wrist grip easier too. all who have posted have given some great information on here .thank you,Pete53


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## ArcherXXX300

I've always shot low wrist grip. My Olympic recurve has a highwrist grip on it, the main reason for highwrist grips is higher holding weights. But I also literally just about 18hrs or so ago built up the grip on one of my pro comp elites with Sugru to see what the difference is and I know that the higher wrist grip of my recurve was far more comfortable and produced less tension in my forearm. If you shoot a low, medium or high wrist grip the pressure should all still be transmitted to and traveling through the base of the wrist, but grip angle will cause variations in tension in your forearm and some will be more comfortable and more easily repeatable than others IMHO.


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## field14

redman said:


> Thing A Week #12 A "MUST SEE" Sugru grip build from ALC and LCA in general archery


BINGO! Such a revelation has come about of late, in that a bit HIGHER grip that what is on today's compounds is actually a better position; something the shooters of the '60's, 70's, and early 80's knew all too well.
I remember when Bear sent 3 grips with their TamerlaneII and Alaskan compound bows: "low" wrist, medium wrist, and high wrist! You picked the one you wanted to shoot and put the others into the drawer.
I opted for the medium wrist on mine.
I recently found a TamerlaneII compound bow, but it only has the "low wrist" grip on it...and OMG...that LOW wrist grip on that bow is way HIGHER than what my Hoyt Contender Elite or even my Merlin Excalibur have! 
I also remember in the later 1980's and early 1990's that Hoyt offered two grips on their ProVantage and other bows, too, the low and the medium. The LOW was way higher than what is offered today.
Elite is offering a rubber grip for their bows, and it is a tad higher that shooting off the riser.

There are custom grips out there, too.

So interesting in that now it comes to light that raising the grip of the bow itself allows the forearm to be more relaxed. Wow-wee.

Just think about how it used to be that you put your hand out in front of you as if you were going to shake hands with someone and that was the "position" to hold your bow into...Do you shake hands with your wrist out like you are signaling to stop? Of course not...HOWEVER, that all being said, with the way the bows are designed right now, THAT is your choice, and about the most effective way of having it...but you also have to watch out that you don't shoot off your first finger, too!!! NEVER used to have that problem either with the "higher" wristed (even then they called it a "low" wrist grip) that used to be standard. Not super LOW (like today's), nor super "high" such as the BEST Grips used by many recurved bow shooters, but in between and relaxed without forcing your first finger into the path of the arrow and forcing you to really bend the first finger down and away (which is unnatural, but must be done).

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

Pete53 said:


> i would like to add just one little thing Terry Ragsdale who in the past was a very good archer in target archery ,used a high wrist when he shot archery but he had super strong wrist and was just a rock shooting archery.but i have tried myself using the high wrist and to be honest its a very difficult way to hold a bow and my scores have always been better with a low wrist,i have watched alot of good archer`s they all have been shooting low wrist,i think the newer bows are built for a low wrist like someone said and newer bows seem to have a smaller grip which help to be able to use a low wrist grip easier too. all who have posted have given some great information on here .thank you,Pete53


Really didn't REQUIRE a strong wrist at all, since he wasn't out on the edge of his thumb. The grip itself was built to offer comfortable support to that shooting position! Didn't require a "balancing act" either. I think the narrower grips create a lot of problems with "torque" because you are forced to try to balance that narrow and somewhat rounded surface area AND bend your wrist down to yet another unnatural position just to manage today's super low wrist grips that come out on the bows.
It was pretty much just let the bow seek its own natural position without having to gyrate up, down, left, right, and align this with that...if allowed to, the bow found its best position for you!
Ever try the "Vaseline trick" to force you to allow the bow to seek its natural position in your bow hand? Works nice and slick (pun intended)?


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## Lazarus

field14, glad to see you checkin' in. I'm also glad you commented as you did. You have a much better way with words than I do, much more diplomatic. Good stuff. I'll leave it at that.


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## SonnyThomas

field14 and I have both related of our experience with "grease" to find where the bow would go and stay without fear of getting clubbered. I remember something gooey, cold cream... The order "Draw your bow" laced fear up and down me, but dang the bow didn't go anywhere but where it was supposed to and held right there. After a few draws it seemed like magic. And the thinner grips, I've Pearson's MarXman has the thinnest at .600". I had a heck of time getting use to it, but then I have a spongy, wide gap from the artificial wrist/thumb joint.


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## Fury90flier

anyone old enough to remember the grips that fit the palm? The grips had somewhat a medium grip angle but had a bulge that sat neatly in the palm. Quite a bit different than today's plank type grip but once you get used to it...it was almost effortless to place the bow in front of you.


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## Unk Bond

field14 said:


> Really didn't REQUIRE a strong wrist at all, since he wasn't out on the edge of his thumb. The grip itself was built to offer comfortable support to that shooting position! Didn't require a "balancing act" either. I think the narrower grips create a lot of problems with "torque" because you are forced to try to balance that narrow and somewhat rounded surface area AND bend your wrist down to yet another unnatural position just to manage today's super low wrist grips that come out on the bows.
> It was pretty much just let the bow seek its own natural position without having to gyrate up, down, left, right, and align this with that...if allowed to, the bow found its best position for you!
> Ever try the "Vaseline trick" to force you to allow the bow to seek its natural position in your bow hand? Works nice and slick (pun intended)?


================
Hello
Quote = narrower grips create a lot of problems with "torque" 
Reply = x2

Back then my Wing Pll bow grip was big.For me I had less tork. And was more relaxed. 
Where as I tried the Hoyt recurve with its narrow grip. And found my self getting in to the bow grip. Giving me arm slap from the bow string osculation. [ Later


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## SonnyThomas

Remember one thing. Today's riser grips comes from the "Proving Grounds," not some whimsical quest. Pros and Pro Hunters help establish the "best" or happy medium.

The full grip came from days long gone and developed as time went on to that of today's. We still have some in the back room. Like wrapping your hand around a contoured 2X4.

My newest, just arrived, a Pearson MX2, has a grip thickness of .700" and feels far better than my MarXman's .600" and I haven't even shot it yet. I rate it something on the order of my old '06 Hoyt ProElite.

Athens started up and right off I noted the grip one of the poorest as the grip panels were squared off. Rodney asked and I explained. Athens came out with contoured grips. Pearson was bought and my 2009 TX4 came with the same type squared off grip panels. I removed them, preferring the bare metal riser grip. If I can get around to it I know this person that can do magical things with wood, like thin and contour the wood panels.


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## Lazarus

Is not the best opportunity for accuracy had with a shot with the least amount of hand contact on the bow? 

Just curious as to what some folks thoughts on this are.


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## SonnyThomas

Can't say the least, but that fitted best into the natural pocket of the hand.

Levi's hand. Who can argue with full contact at the throat/shelf, index finger above the shelf, riser grip going right straight off the palm of the hand? A wider grip, but very compare hold.


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## SonnyThomas

High riser grip of years past gave to "full contact." Use a high grip on today's bows and you will have the bow rocking side to side, pivoting at the web of the hand.

One of our wall hangers, a brand new never sold, old, contoured 2X4 wood riser PSE target bow. This grip felt huge and we have another wood riser bow in the back that is larger yet. How do you not have lots of contact would be the question.
Note warranty tag still on bow. Tie strap joining bow string and cables, to keep numskulls from drawing these old bows.


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> High riser grip of years past gave to "full contact." Use a high grip on today's bows and you will have the bow rocking side to side, pivoting at the web of the hand.
> 
> One of our wall hangers, a brand new never sold, old, contoured 2X4 wood riser PSE target bow. This grip felt huge and we have another wood riser bow in the back that is larger yet. How do you not have lots of contact would be the question.
> Note warranty tag still on bow. Tie strap joining bow string and cables, to keep numskulls from drawing these old bows.


The key isn't about the "contact" or how much...it is about CONSISTENT contact and replicating it the same every time; which used to be pretty danged easy if you just let the bow settle into the bow hand to the path of least resistance!
Why do you suppose the "new revelation" by GRIV on his video about SORGU, to "raise" the wrist and allow the forearm to be more relaxed? Today's risers pretty much force a balancing act because they are so low and so narrow. This makes it extremely difficult to replicate the bow-hand positioning the same every time. However, that being said, once mastered...look at the accuracy they are getting; but at the cost of how many hours, days, weeks, and months of hard work and effort TRYING to master this?
FOR ME, letting the bow just go into its natural position...puts my first finger at risk of, and it does, get hit by either the arrow or the fletching! Thus, instead of leaving it natural, I'm forced to think about making sure the first finger is down and touching the thumb AND the front of the riser, which is an added movement and muscle tightening that should NOT be necessary. However, if you look at those like Reo Wilde, you will see the exact same thing. Look at others, and you are surprised at how close the first finger is to the arrow when at FDP!
Should NOT have to have this! But, it looks like some of the newer "gurus" are figuring this out and making "news" with it, which is good for ALL the newbies.
THere is also "new information" coming forth about HIGHER holding weights, too! "New discoveries" every day by the new gurus.....
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Fury90flier

For those that think they're decent shots...get fling arrows from an older bow as shown above...you'll find out just how bad you are- lol. Man that string feels like it takes for ever to get back to brace...Those old bows are a blast to shoot...they'll keep you honest (especially if you're only shooting about 45#).


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## field14

Fury90flier said:


> For those that think they're decent shots...get fling arrows from an older bow as shown above...you'll find out just how bad you are- lol. Man that string feels like it takes for ever to get back to brace...Those old bows are a blast to shoot...they'll keep you honest (especially if you're only shooting about 45#).


Yep, they will keep you honest, by golly. But on the other hand, the scores shot with those "old bows" on the indoor and outdoor rounds were as good as they are shooting with today's bows. Had we had the string materials and limb components back then that we have now, heaven only knows how good things would have been!
In times gone by, many of us knew that once we really had a given bow shooting superbly...something was about to explode, and normall did, too....cable(s), limbs (mostly the bottom limb), bowstring, servings. That is why we learned to measure and mark EVERYTHING on that bow's setup and write it down. "ProActive archery" was a way of life then, just as it should be now.
Next "new" revelation may well be the discovery that HIGHER holding weights (from LOWER letoff %) lead to improved accuracy and more consistency...
field14


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## SonnyThomas

field14 said:


> The key isn't about the "contact" or how much...it is about CONSISTENT contact and replicating it the same every time; which used to be pretty danged easy if you just let the bow settle into the bow hand to the path of least resistance!
> Why do you suppose the "new revelation" by GRIV on his video about SORGU, to "raise" the wrist and allow the forearm to be more relaxed? Today's risers pretty much force a balancing act because they are so low and so narrow. This makes it extremely difficult to replicate the bow-hand positioning the same every time. However, that being said, once mastered...look at the accuracy they are getting; but at the cost of how many hours, days, weeks, and months of hard work and effort TRYING to master this?
> FOR ME, letting the bow just go into its natural position...puts my first finger at risk of, and it does, get hit by either the arrow or the fletching! Thus, instead of leaving it natural, I'm forced to think about making sure the first finger is down and touching the thumb AND the front of the riser, which is an added movement and muscle tightening that should NOT be necessary. However, if you look at those like Reo Wilde, you will see the exact same thing. Look at others, and you are surprised at how close the first finger is to the arrow when at FDP!
> Should NOT have to have this! But, it looks like some of the newer "gurus" are figuring this out and making "news" with it, which is good for ALL the newbies.
> THere is also "new information" coming forth about HIGHER holding weights, too! "New discoveries" every day by the new gurus.....
> field14 (Tom D.)


Not arguing, Tom. 15 years ago my first new bow was a Golden Eagle Evolution. Seems one could pick up a Golden Eagle and it would shoot for the vast majority. That we "grew" along with the changes we adapted and until GRIV and Sugru the grip was what you had. I posted pics above of how hands are today, high in the grip and finger above the shelf.
As for GRIV and the Sugru, people will use it and more than likely throw it away because they won't adhere to the advice. You just can't slap the stuff on and expect magic and that's most archers are looking for, the magic something. 

Some one has or had a adjustable grip, who?


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## redman

No magic in archery just hard work


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Not arguing, Tom. 15 years ago my first new bow was a Golden Eagle Evolution. Seems one could pick up a Golden Eagle and it would shoot for the vast majority. That we "grew" along with the changes we adapted and until GRIV and Sugru the grip was what you had. I posted pics above of how hands are today, high in the grip and finger above the shelf.
> As for GRIV and the Sugru, people will use it and more than likely throw it away because they won't adhere to the advice. You just can't slap the stuff on and expect magic and that's most archers are looking for, the magic something.
> 
> Some one has or had a adjustable grip, who?


First off, The Sugru is something different...but it isn't NEW. And until GRIV and Sugru isn't new either. There has been "Form a Grip" around for years and many shooters used it to get things the way they wanted them. Problem with Form-a-Grip is that it wasn't removable, so once on, always on.
Adjustable bow grips have also been around for YEARS.
One of the earliest that I recall was on some PSE compounds in the early 1980's. You could adjust the "wristness" (low to high) as well as the left to right positioning of this adjustable plastic grip. I even think some PSE's had those movable adjustable grips on some of their bows even into the 2000's in their early Mach Series.

Many bows in the 1980's and into the 1990's also had grip selections, but didn't send you all three like Bear Archery did in the 1970's. 

My Hoyt ProVantage Carbon Plus (Vintage 1989-1992 or so) and a few subsequent bows came with your choice of a low, a medium, or a high wrist plastic grip that snapped in place, but it was non-adjustable. in addition the LOW grip was way higher than what Hoyt now has on their bows.

Now Shrewd also offers differing types of grips, but not for all brands of bows.

There are custom grip makers out there, too that offer the grip of your choice to fit the bow you have. Jaeger Archery is one of them, and there are a few others.

In addition the wood grips offered by Hoyt and the rubber grips offered by Elite do give you a tiny bit of "higher wrist", but not much, and even then, they are still pretty low wristed. They do, however widen things out a bit so you don't have that narrow balancing act going on and they also help with you not having to FORCE yourself to keep that first finger out of the path of the arrow or to tighten up the first finger to bring it down to the front of the riser and "keep it there." This isn't hard to learn, but under pressure of tournament play, the old habit can rise back up again and all it takes is ONCE and your confidence and focus are now shifted.

Once again, the key is getting the bowhand and bow arm relaxed and keeping it relaxed, as GRIV points out...but again, the newbies won't listen to old farts, so we NEED GRIV to bring things back up again, even if they are being construed as "new stuff" and "new" revelations. It doesn't really matter...the communication lines are open like they've never been before...but ALL the secrets will never ever be given out; free gratis or otherwise.


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## hrtlnd164

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=52359&page=2&highlight=Griv+high+wrist+grip
Dug this up out of the depths, Griv and the Wilde's and there opinions on the grip issue. Now do remember this is from a few years back..enjoy.


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## SonnyThomas

field14 said:


> First off, The Sugru is something different...but it isn't NEW. And until GRIV and Sugru isn't new either. There has been "Form a Grip" around for years and many shooters used it to get things the way they wanted them. Problem with Form-a-Grip is that it wasn't removable, so once on, always on.
> I noted this also, Tom. I get down to the shop I can find that bow that has the Form-a-Grip. Formed for the shooter, it feels like it is gripping me.
> 
> Adjustable bow grips have also been around for YEARS.
> One of the earliest that I recall was on some PSE compounds in the early 1980's. You could adjust the "wristness" (low to high) as well as the left to right positioning of this adjustable plastic grip. I even think some PSE's had those movable adjustable grips on some of their bows even into the 2000's in their early Mach Series.
> 
> I was thinking one of the "thinkers and doers" of maybe 5 years ago. Nylon perhaps, allen screw adjustable. Of course, adjustable and tinkeritist comes into play.
> 
> Many bows in the 1980's and into the 1990's also had grip selections, but didn't send you all three like Bear Archery did in the 1970's.
> 
> My Hoyt ProVantage Carbon Plus (Vintage 1989-1992 or so) and a few subsequent bows came with your choice of a low, a medium, or a high wrist plastic grip that snapped in place, but it was non-adjustable. in addition the LOW grip was way higher than what Hoyt now has on their bows.
> 
> Now Shrewd also offers differing types of grips, but not for all brands of bows.
> 
> There are custom grip makers out there, too that offer the grip of your choice to fit the bow you have. Jaeger Archery is one of them, and there are a few others.
> 
> In addition the wood grips offered by Hoyt and the rubber grips offered by Elite do give you a tiny bit of "higher wrist", but not much, and even then, they are still pretty low wristed. They do, however widen things out a bit so you don't have that narrow balancing act going on and they also help with you not having to FORCE yourself to keep that first finger out of the path of the arrow or to tighten up the first finger to bring it down to the front of the riser and "keep it there." This isn't hard to learn, but under pressure of tournament play, the old habit can rise back up again and all it takes is ONCE and your confidence and focus are now shifted.
> 
> Once again, the key is getting the bowhand and bow arm relaxed and keeping it relaxed, as GRIV points out...but again, the newbies won't listen to old farts, so we NEED GRIV to bring things back up again, even if they are being construed as "new stuff" and "new" revelations. It doesn't really matter...the communication lines are open like they've never been before...but ALL the secrets will never ever be given out; free gratis or otherwise.


Again, those beyond us have changed the grip design and I don't see bow companies going backwards. What, the banana grip of Martin and Elite the most recent variance, but still just a modification of the present. 

And still one of the advocates of "heal the bow," Terry Wunderle. Actually, proper healing of the bow does make one conform to the grip.

I've got to dig out that old article of days of old when tattooing was around. Go over in General Discussion. Nuts&bolts, in a bare shaft Post/Thread, has picture of his (?) hand with a ink pen mark and a piece of tape taped to the riser with a corresponding line. 
Nothing new today is new, just revamped  I am disagreeable with modifying one's grip to make bare shafts behave with fletched arrows. All my bows are tuned the same, gripped the same. Pick up one and bull's eye. Pick another and bull's eye. 

hrtlnd184, 10 years ago and the debate still goes on. I like Wilde's #36, Different explanation, but same thing we do today. Or at least I take it as such. 

"Lay your hand along side of the grip and slide it around until the center of your web is at the center of the riser. Now raise your bow and let your wrist break down/relax. Now you should have your hand in a repeatable, less torque, grip with the hand feeling the grip from top to bottom. With the palm side of the riser basically fallowing your life line."


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## Lazarus

Although not popular in today's circles this is what a proper grip should look like. I'm not talking about the grip of the bow, I'm talking about the grip of the archer.


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## field14

Lazarus said:


> Although not popular in today's circles this is what a proper grip should look like. I'm not talking about the grip of the bow, I'm talking about the grip of the archer.
> 
> View attachment 2039502


That appears to be a PSE Laser or Laser Magnum with the PSE optional HIGH wrist grip. PSE also offered options of the low or medium plastic grip...and those were oh, so very, very close to the plastic grips offered by the HOYT ProVantage series in the later 1980's and earlier 1990's. THey looked the same, felt the same, but were NOT interchangeable from a PSE to a Hoyt or vice-versa. However, you did have support for your hand and could let the bow find its own "sweet spot" if you would just allow it.
It also appears that a "springie rest" was being used, based upon what is in the "berger hole" PSE had an adjustable springie rest holder for pressure point adjustment. Once you had the angle of the dangle on the springie launcher arm, you could move the pressure point without upsetting that critical angle of the arm on the springie!
I shot some pretty super scores indoors and out with both a PSE Laser and a PSE Laser Magnum. Still one in the family, too.

I also must add that it appears to be the PSE Terry Ragsdale bow sight that is on that PSE Laser Magnum, too. What a beefy sight that was. Didn't hang around for long, however. I still have a "TR Bar" site extension that would work with the Killian Chek-It vertical bar. Solid as a rock, and what I was using for many years outdoors and indoors along with a $25 "Magna-site" 6X scope. Still have three Magna Sites, and they are as clear as any of the others I am using now. Lenses are fixed in the housing and NOT removable.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Lazarus

Tom........you're a walking encyclopedia. And right on just about all counts I believe. :wink:

I've looked for a pic of another pretty prolific shooter that shot the right kind of wrist/grip style. But I think he must be amish, finding pics of him is hard as pulling hens teeth.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Although not popular in today's circles this is what a proper grip should look like. I'm not talking about the grip of the bow, I'm talking about the grip of the archer.
> 
> It's been some time back...2003 maybe...IAA 3D State Championship...I shot with this big game hunter...bears....polar bears maybe... He had some money...bought 4 or 5000 Easton aluminum arrows...last run of these arrows....camo, but gray....leave pattern? Friends with Doug Easton, I think. Anyway, he shot with such a "grip." He was quite awesome to watch.
> 
> All of us keeping score...Pretty sure he had Hunter Division won easily and wouldn't turn in score. Said; "I do this for fun." All of us in the group thought he was great to shoot with...I never saw him again....
> 
> Remember he gave of not being able to bring back some big game animal...US Endangered Species Act at the time, but legal where ever he took the animal....Polar Bear! Russia?


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## penguin1793

I put a medium Torqueless grip on my hunting and 3d/target bows. Feels good and comfortable. I chose the medium because it's the closest of the 3 to the older stock Mathews grips. Before they came out with the Focus grip. I'd probably go with one of those now. Outside of the customization of my hunting bow grip.


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## Rick!

Lazarus said:


> Although not popular in today's circles this is what a proper grip should look like. I'm not talking about the grip of the bow, I'm talking about the grip of the archer.
> 
> View attachment 2039502


Can you walk us through the finer points of this grip technique? 

Why the tourniquet above the wrist?

I am curious about the benefits of the "hitch- hiker" thumb in that state. When I try that, my whole hand spazzes out. It must be some "pro secret."

Nice one! I wonder how many are still thinking you were serious?


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## field14

Rick! said:


> Can you walk us through the finer points of this grip technique?
> 
> Why the tourniquet above the wrist?
> 
> I am curious about the benefits of the "hitch- hiker" thumb in that state. When I try that, my whole hand spazzes out. It must be some "pro secret."
> 
> Nice one! I wonder how many are still thinking you were serious?


I guess I can chime in here....I'm thinking the "tourniquet" is his watch band. As you can tell, he is using a wrist type of bow sling that was very popular back then. Amazingly, this is/was pretty serious stuff, and many people opted for the HIGH wrist grip, but even more opted for the MEDIUM wrist grips, and even fewer went "low wrist"...UNTIL there became no options and the manuf made the grips based upon whatever. Our only options now are to go with what the bow is, raise it up with Sorgu or Form-a-grip, or get an after market custom grip at quite an expense.
The grip on the bow in the photo was plastic and I'm pretty sure this one was the high wrist model offered by PSE. Plenty of support for your bow hand without really having to gyrate around much.
In this photo, however, there is a lot of tension in the bow hand, as evidenced by the first and middle fingers, and maybe a bit in the thumb, too, but it is at least pointed mostly at the target, so isn't too tense.

Several of the best shooters of the time shot with a "splayed open" type of bow-hand and this type of "wrist positioning", and were shooting the same scores or close to it as today's shooters. So, for you newbies...this is NOT A JOKE!
Back in the early 1980's I shot a tournament with Dean Pridgen over the course of two days (He was shooting for Golden Eagle then), and the first day, on the field round, he had a 557, and the 2nd day, on the hunter round, he had a 559. The course was a tough one, with uphills, down hills, and side hill shots along with light and dark shooting lanes to boot.
Dean is one of the best shooters of all time and has more Silver Bowls than anyone around. He always shot with a "splayed" bow hand, but his splaying was relaxed and his bow arm was the strongest part of his shot! He always said that the key to consistency and accuracy was in the correct draw length and the BOW ARM.
But of course, the conversation is around the high, medium, or low wrist grip. Personally, I've thought for quite some time that the grip offered on today's bows is a bit too low; and now it is evidenced with coaches such as GRIV saying that it is better to build up the grip on the bow to raise the wrist just a bit to help relax the forearm (bow arm side). Not new, but interesting that it is coming back around again. I also think the Kisik Lee has also changed the course of instruction concerning the bow hand "wristness", too, but I'm too lazy to really read up on the new "procedure" for certified coaches to follow in the course of their instruction.

I understand that a few companies are also back to offering a selection of grips on their new lines of bows, too. What goes around; comes around. Might take 40 years, but.....
Here is a link to an NFAA Archery Magazine from "way back when". Give it time to load and then you will see a photo of a "young" Dean Pridgen shooting his Jennings compound...with HIGH Wrist AND a splayed bow-hand that is his "hall-mark." The photo was taken in 1976. Yes, that was a metal riser on the Jennings compound he is shooting. Cannot criticize his success for nearly 40 years..including shooting a 60X-300 at the Indoor Nationals at age 70+ a few short years ago...with a "splayed bow hand." I also knew Paul Davison personally, and he was a stickler for accuracy in his writing/reporting.
http://issuu.com/nfaausa/docs/april_may_2008/15 
field14


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## Lazarus

Rick! said:


> Can you walk us through the finer points of this grip technique?
> 
> Why the tourniquet above the wrist?
> 
> I am curious about the benefits of the "hitch- hiker" thumb in that state. When I try that, my whole hand spazzes out. It must be some "pro secret."
> 
> Nice one! I wonder how many are still thinking you were serious?


I'm kind of in a rush right now or I would explain it.......if I thought you were serious, later. But I have an archery event to go do in just a bit and it will last till dark. 

But since you appear to not think *I* was serious.........here is the rest of the picture that I cropped before posting. And I did it just for some of the hot shots that think they know everything about wrist position who might not even know who the subject of the picture is.

Now.......are you serious? You really want to know how to shoot this way? If so, I'll be glad to share. :wink:

Here's the pic;


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## field14

Lazarus said:


> I'm kind of in a rush right now or I would explain it.......if I thought you were serious, later. But I have an archery event to go do in just a bit and it will last till dark.
> 
> But since you appear to not think *I* was serious.........here is the rest of the picture that I cropped before posting. And I did it just for some of the hot shots that think they know everything about wrist position who might not even know who the subject of the picture is.
> 
> Now.......are you serious? You really want to know how to shoot this way? If so, I'll be glad to share. :wink:
> 
> Here's the pic;
> 
> View attachment 2040269


Well done! I knew all the time who this shooter was! Amazing...the first one to ever shoot a perfect 560 out of 560 in NATIONAL competition. How many Vegas and Cobo Hall wins? Heck I dunno...I do know that he won both Vegas and Cobo Hall in the same year, and shot perfect 1,200 scores in both events with two different bows, neither of which had "perfect cam alignment" (zero cam lean) with regard to the way the cables came off the cams. Did I mention Dacron bowstrings and steel cables?
Done with this type of "wrist position" and "hand position", with shot in sight marks, no cut chart, no inclinometer, no "apps" (we didn't have cell phones or computers back then).
But hey, the old farts didn't know what they were doing? I may also mention that this bow was 48" ATA and the let off was maybe 40-45%.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Lazarus

Heh, heh.....I figured you knew who it was Tom. Thanks for laying low. Lol. Gotta go.....thanks!


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## SonnyThomas

Don't go winding up the people in here. Win money back then wasn't all that much. I'm pretty sure Mr. "X" kept his day job.


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## rn3

SonnyThomas said:


> Don't go winding up the people in here. Win money back then wasn't all that much. I'm pretty sure Mr. "X" kept his day job.


Yea with PSE


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## Lazarus

rn3 said:


> Yea with PSE


Lol....baziiing


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## TobyR.

... Since we were talking older bows and grips..... Carroll had the worlds most comfortable grip! Loved them! I actually had a Carroll by PSE with the the original grip.... one of the few before they screwed it up with a snap on plastic grip....
....... I can't tell for sure but I think that's my hand writing on the old Excalibur tag that Sonny posted. Fun stuff


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## rn3

TobyR. said:


> ... Since we were talking older bows and grips..... Carroll had the worlds most comfortable grip! Loved them! I actually had a Carroll by PSE with the the original grip.... one of the few before they screwed it up with a snap on plastic grip....
> ....... I can't tell for sure but I think that's my hand writing on the old Excalibur tag that Sonny posted. Fun stuff


Carrols grip was great the old Jennings S-handle wasn't to bad either.


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## SonnyThomas

TobyR. said:


> ... Since we were talking older bows and grips..... Carroll had the worlds most comfortable grip! Loved them! I actually had a Carroll by PSE with the the original grip.... one of the few before they screwed it up with a snap on plastic grip....
> ....... * I can't tell for sure but I think that's my hand writing on the old Excalibur tag that Sonny posted. Fun stuff*


Tracking you ole boys down is tough! Had this old PSE come in. Looked older the 82 year old owner. Wanted it bought back to life. Lord! Drilled through riser to get good threads for the sight. New string from M&R Bowstrings - Roger had the specs - He is good. And then the timing. "Help Wanted" all over and finally this ole boy replied; _"Pete and I still remember those and know how to work on them. What you have there is the second style of the PSE Citation."_ Got the old bow singing in no time. Even put his "Puff balls" back on. Yes, I've still got the instructions just in case


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## SonnyThomas

Going to break some hearts here. Did anyone notice the back bars on Mr. X's bow?


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## Pete53

that old PSE citation bow brings back some memories,my brother -in -law still has a bow like the one in that picture, i was a jennings man shot a jennings S - handle blue with white limbs and still have that bow too. how do these years go by so fast ? i remember when Terry Ragsdale won the minnesota pro man`s free style the first time and Mr. Ragsdale just got better , but in those days the finger or limited pro division was still number 1 ,and Wayne Miller shooting a Jennings S-handle won the minnesota limited pro division with a 295 out of 300,now this is the funny part : wayne missed the target the first arrow but still won. Sonny, you did kinda make my heart thump harder.Pete53


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## FS560

I liked the grip angle on my RazorX bows but shoot better with my Hoyts.

You guys do know that you can adjust grip angle on Hoyts with tiller and custom rockers.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, here's a metal PSE, just like you see it, still hanging on the wall. And here's another on the wall, one of the fancier Jennings, switch axle holes to have different draw lengths, down to 26" I believe. I've got a Pearson Pro 6000, 6 wheeler hanging in the garage, but trying to get the camo paint job off the target bow.

On the wall behind the PSE, now ASA Senior Pro Tim Yocum's first 300 at the shop, not all Xs. Behind the Jennings, my first 300 at the shop, not all Xs. Officially, the shop was open for 5 years and not one 300 60X shot. One of the 300s on the wall is mine, but shot from 30 yards. Long dang ways looking for inside. Did it twice, once with a single spot. Forget who said it wasn't fair, so it took some to sort out how to shoot with all 5 spots looking like a cluster, but finally shot a 300 using the 5 spot - still headaches thinking about it. Started at bottom right, bottom left, center, top left, top right.

Whoops...Shop closed, I still have the key, those bows are for sale along with about 35 others....many Pearson target bows. There is enough "new" brass pins and nuts to make a trip to the salvage yard!


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Tracking you ole boys down is tough! Had this old PSE come in. Looked older the 82 year old owner. Wanted it bought back to life. Lord! Drilled through riser to get good threads for the sight. New string from M&R Bowstrings - Roger had the specs - He is good. And then the timing. "Help Wanted" all over and finally this ole boy replied; _"Pete and I still remember those and know how to work on them. What you have there is the second style of the PSE Citation."_ Got the old bow singing in no time. Even put his "Puff balls" back on. Yes, I've still got the instructions just in case


I remember the Citation in the photo well. Those items circled were "speed brackets" and are actually turn buckles to help "time" the eccentrics. They were not "Cams" as you guys know them, because they were round on round. The Citation pictured was a "4-wheeled" compound bow, and if you could see the limb face, you would also find some cork or rubber "buttons" on the limbs right behind the idler wheels. They were there to help prevent the idler wheel axle from hitting and scarring up the limbs!
The other notable thing about this Citation was that shooters carried spare turn buckles, because there was a tendency for them to break at the most inopportune times. I was shooting a Great Lakes Sectional tournament in Ohio and we had two persons shooting PSE Citations, me with my Bear Tamerlane II, and another guy with a Wing Presentation I Compound (with "speed brackets" on it). We were about half-way through the first 14 targets on Sunday when one of the PSE's turn buckles broke. The owner of the bow didn't have a spare turnbuckle, but the other PSE shooter had one, so he offered it up to the other shooter. It took only a few minutes to install the new turnbuckle and to set the "timing" properly. The guy had his bow measured and marked (ProActive Archery??? haha). Anyways, after his practice shots, we continued on and he was shooting very well. Lo and behold, the guy who gave up his spare turnbuckle had his break on him, too. No more spare. What happened? Simple. They both shot the same bow for the remainder of the round! Their draw lengths were nearly identical and the competitors simply changed over so that they weren't on the stake at the same time. Arrows were numbered, and we knew who was shooting which number of arrow so scoring was easy! Turns out the guy that gave up the turnbuckle ended up beating the other guy...with the other guy's Bow that day.
Amazing sportsmanship. The receipient of the last spare turn buckle offered it back and was refused. He then offered the other shooter the use of his bow and spare arrows because they both shot the same drawlength and the peep height was very close, too. We had a ball that day as these two battled it out sharing the same bow.
1st place? Went to the PSE shooter that gave up his turn buckle. 2nd place went to me (again, dang it), and 3rd place went to the guy with the Wing Presentation 1. Very memorable tournament for sure.
The next generation of Citation, the Citation II, had stronger speed brackets that adjusted in a different fashion. Still no cable guard needed, since that Citation II was also a 4-wheeler, I had a 1978 Citation II, and it was one sweet shooting and good looking bow! It had Chrome speed brackets, a selection of high, medium, or low wrist plastic grip, and also a selection of colors. Mine was hammertone RED and one gorgeous bow!
Don't have a photo of it, however, but I remember the bow quite well. Wasn't long thereafter that the Laser and Laser Magnums came out, and once again, they were terrific shooters (45% letoff and all, ha). The cable guards were the weak link, however since they were soft and made out of brass and chrome coated. I think I broke 3 or 4 of those things on my Laser Magnum. Cable glides were something different...so many iterations of those it is unbelievable...

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas

Cables guards of old  Betcha field14 remembers the "U" rods. These were offset to allow the cables to shift over. My pretty blue target Pearson with white limbs had them and it shot great. Tom probably knows the man that talked me out of my old bow. Special ordered from Pearson to max at 37 pounds. Many of the old bows in the back room did not have drilled holes of cable guards. They had plates that bolted to the rise and the rod seated in the plate - this would be under the mounting plate for the sights. Those rods flexed! Draw the bow and the rod would flex so the cables would near reach the arrow shaft, but flexed out of the way for the arrow when you fired the bow. I actually sold the old flexible guide rods for more than I could sell the old bows for. Last rod I swore to keep and some $%$%^* from Florida offered me too much. 2011? I think. A Martin Staff shooter installed one of these old rods in his Onza 3, year of that dumb TRG/SOS. He claimed it was more quiet and lower on draw weight, but 7 fps faster! He won the Illinois Indoor FITA Championship with it. I still have the score sheet on the wall at the shop. Senior and a heck of a lot younger than me. FITA for you.

Oh Lord! The blue PSE I posted, some one saw it and bought it! Arizona it goes. 

Bow in picture, who it belonged to is unknown, but the "U" guides are on wrong. How whoever shot it is beyond me. I sold the guide rods of this bow to someone in New York...


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Cables guards of old  Betcha field14 remembers the "U" rods. These were offset to allow the cables to shift over. My pretty blue target Pearson with white limbs had them and it shot great. Tom probably knows the man that talked me out of my old bow. Special ordered from Pearson to max at 37 pounds. Many of the old bows in the back room did not have drilled holes of cable guards. They had plates that bolted to the rise and the rod seated in the plate - this would be under the mounting plate for the sights. Those rods flexed! Draw the bow and the rod would flex so the cables would near reach the arrow shaft, but flexed out of the way for the arrow when you fired the bow. I actually sold the old flexible guide rods for more than I could sell the old bows for. Last rod I swore to keep and some $%$%^* from Florida offered me too much. 2011? I think. A Martin Staff shooter installed one of these old rods in his Onza 3, year of that dumb TRG/SOS. He claimed it was more quiet and lower on draw weight, but 7 fps faster! He won the Illinois Indoor FITA Championship with it. I still have the score sheet on the wall at the shop. Senior and a heck of a lot younger than me. FITA for you.
> 
> Oh Lord! The blue PSE I posted, some one saw it and bought it! Arizona it goes.
> 
> Bow in picture, who it belonged to is unknown, but the "U" guides are on wrong. How whoever shot it is beyond me. I sold the guide rods of this bow to someone in New York...


Wow! This goes back a ways! Never used the double "U-rods" on any of my bows. What you should find most interesting, however is that some bows out there do have or have tried to have two cable guards on them, once again demonstrating that not much is "new" and something that hasn't been tried before.
Of course, now, there are also bows out there with TWO "string stops" on them instead of just one; afterall, in archery MORE is always thought to be better, correct?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Unk Bond

SonnyThomas said:


> Cables guards of old  Betcha field14 remembers the "U" rods. These were offset to allow the cables to shift over. My pretty blue target Pearson with white limbs had them and it shot great. Tom probably knows the man that talked me out of my old bow. Special ordered from Pearson to max at 37 pounds. Many of the old bows in the back room did not have drilled holes of cable guards. They had plates that bolted to the rise and the rod seated in the plate - this would be under the mounting plate for the sights. Those rods flexed! Draw the bow and the rod would flex so the cables would near reach the arrow shaft, but flexed out of the way for the arrow when you fired the bow. I actually sold the old flexible guide rods for more than I could sell the old bows for. Last rod I swore to keep and some $%$%^* from Florida offered me too much. 2011? I think. A Martin Staff shooter installed one of these old rods in his Onza 3, year of that dumb TRG/SOS. He claimed it was more quiet and lower on draw weight, but 7 fps faster! He won the Illinois Indoor FITA Championship with it. I still have the score sheet on the wall at the shop. Senior and a heck of a lot younger than me. FITA for you.
> 
> Oh Lord! The blue PSE I posted, some one saw it and bought it! Arizona it goes.
> 
> Bow in picture, who it belonged to is unknown, but the "U" guides are on wrong. How whoever shot it is beyond me. I sold the guide rods of this bow to someone in New York...


=====================

Hello Sonny
Quote =Oh Lord! The blue PSE I posted, some one saw it and bought it! Arizona it goes. 

Well Sonny will haft to admit. I had my eye on it to. 
Just now getting a Pay Pal account. And that held me back.
I could just picture that riser with a set of my recurve limbs on it. :wink: [ Later


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## SonnyThomas

Unk Bond said:


> =====================
> 
> Hello Sonny
> Quote =Oh Lord! The blue PSE I posted, some one saw it and bought it! Arizona it goes.
> 
> Well Sonny will haft to admit. I had my eye on it to.
> Just now getting a Pay Pal account. And that held me back.
> I could just picture that riser with a set of my recurve limbs on it. :wink: [ Later


Some may not know what you're talking about. Sold 4 old compound risers to the person from the state of Washington. He makes take down recurve bows with these old risers. Yep, recurve bows, no just recurve limbs....


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## rn3

I had the Presidential Citation II with engraved stabilizer, sight and scope. When the Laser;s cam out I converted the Citation to a Laser.


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## Lazarus

rn3 said:


> I had the Presidential Citation II with engraved stabilizer, sight and scope.


Yep. Had that same bow. Everything was engraved. Shot it pretty well too. Then one day I was working in the shop and this old boy, seemed his name was Rags or something like that came in. He asked me if I really wanted to make that bow shoot. I said, "of course!" He went to his car and brang back a sheet with a whole bunch of measurements on it that had been typed on a typewriter then copied off. He handed me the sheet and said "you do what this sheet says and it will really make that bow shoot." Took the bow home that nite and strung it out all over the living room floor. Put it back together according to the new specs and shot it. It was aMAZing, almost couldn't miss with it then. You could seem to be off the dot when the release went off and the arrow would bury in the X. Guess that old boy knew what he was talking about. 

Oh, and back to topic. I shot that bow with a straight wrist just like I do today. Good form is good form no matter what decade it is, or how the grip is designed.


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## dua lam pa

If you are holding 20 lbs , there is no magic grip goo that can subtract nor ease your holding weight , its just the transphere of energy - 
Shaping a grip will mearly transpher your holding weight to a more specific area in your palm - arm
You will still need to hold the 20 lbs - 
raising the grip on a compound bow will lower aiming time - and induce a huge force that aids in the collapsing of the shoulder - bone collapsing on bone - directed towards shoulder 

Its personal as to if a higher wrist - smaller pressure point produces better scores as apposed to a low wrist , more even pressured grip - 
physics seems to be on the ultra low wrist - single pressure point side of the matter -
its a bit odd Give promotes a palm on plane with the target and is selling a highish wrist grip with sugru
20 pound of holding weight is 20 lbs - put it where it suites you best -


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## redman

Made a higher wrist grip on my supra and it helped with left and rights big time used sugru to build up grip works great


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## Bees

Lazarus said:


> Although not popular in today's circles this is what a proper grip should look like. I'm not talking about the grip of the bow, I'm talking about the grip of the archer.
> 
> View attachment 2039502


hey fancy that, my hand looks a lot like that when I shoot my 06 Protec... 
I tried that low wrist stuff and my bow arm forearm hurt so bad I had to stop shooting to let it heal up.
After the muscle strain healed I went back to a high wrist grip, forearm said thanks and it has never hurt since..


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## SonnyThomas

Anytime you change arm or body position you're bound to ache. "You don't use X muscle for this." BS! Muscle are used that we don't think about, but sure do when notice them when we're hurt.

That particular grip was the "in thing" two decades ago, but no longer. Few today seem to be able to master the high wrist, nor do the best of best use such high grip.
Right off I can't think of one of the top archers today using a high wrist grip.


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## redman

The new hoyt bow have the option of a different grip low medium of high I think you will see top shooters using a high wrist grip.


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## ron w

that high wrist grip, was much more common years ago. considered about as normal as we now consider the low wrist grip. it was a hold-over from the days when all recurves were high wrist and people figured what worked on the recurve, will work on the compound. people slowly found out that's not necessarily true.
the second bow I ever bought, was a PSE "Citation", considered an upgrade from from first bow, an Astro "Stinger". it didn't take long, and the speed brackets and pulleys were gone and a set of Laser magnum wheels and limbs replaced them.


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## Mahly

1st attempt at Sugru mod....kinda liking it


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## field14

ron w said:


> that high wrist grip, was much more common years ago. considered about as normal as we now consider the low wrist grip. it was a hold-over from the days when all recurves were high wrist and people figured what worked on the recurve, will work on the compound. people slowly found out that's not necessarily true.
> the second bow I ever bought, was a PSE "Citation", considered an upgrade from from first bow, an Astro "Stinger". it didn't take long, and the speed brackets and pulleys were gone and a set of Laser magnum wheels and limbs replaced them.


Ron, I too owned a Citation, and then a Citation II. I also owned and shot both the PSE Laser and the Laser Magnum. In fact my Laser Magnum is still in the family and was used by one of my brothers for many years. The bow is still shootable today with its MEDIUM wrist grip right on it. 
I also had an Astro Stinger and later on, a pair of Astro Regencies.
The grips on those bows were way, way higher than today's super low wrist bows! The Astro's grip (I think it was dubbed a "California High Wrist grip") fit the hand like a glove and was superb. Never had to think about hand placement, just let the bow find its on sweet spot. 
Same with the Citation. It came with a medium wrist grip, which was, again, much higher than today's bows, but you could get a low or a high wrist snap on grip for it. You could also get the low, medium, or high wrist grip on the Laser and the Laser Magnums, too. I shot well with a medium wrist grip on the Laser and the Laser Magnum. Once again, with the Citation, you really didn't have to think much about hand placement on the bow, just let it seek out its natural position.
Lots of today's "gurus" are already re-suggesting raising the wrist to "take pressure off the forearm"...gee...some 40 years later, yet another "circle" is being completed. Even HOYT has come back around, but now, instead of having 3 snap on grips like they did in the 1980's and 1990's (low (which was WAY higher than what the bow risers are now), medium, and high wrist, they have inserts that you can place into the riser to raise the wrist. Not NEW, other than having the slot cut into the riser grip to accommodate the "higher wrist" instead of snap on or bolt on overlay grips.
Of course, there are not any after market add-on grips being made for many of the other Hoyt bows, especially the Contender line, so you are stuck with Sugru or worse "Form-a-Grip" to work with raising the wrist to a more relaxing and comfortable position.


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## TNMAN

I was thinking the same thing, Tom. The new Hoyt grip options and the sugru buildups that GRIV sports around are NOT high grips by any definition. Not to say that a slightly higher grip might not help---one of those things worth trying.

My 1st target compound (Jan'77) was a Citation II. The next year, Pete Shepley met 4 of us (headed back South) at his Illinois factory early Saturday morning after Outdoor Nats Aurora to build us new Lasers. Pete called Terry to come in and build the bows, but he begged off as worn smooth out from a tough nats. Another guy came and built bows to our specs in an otherwise empty factory. How's that for customer service?


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## SonnyThomas

Well, bow grip design moved to the low wrist for a reason. I just now compared my 2014 Pearson MX2 and my old Pearson Pro 6000 6 wheeler. Both felt good. I used a 1/2 wood dowel to keep the grip throats even and then measured limbs to give the same distance, top and bottom. And the wheel. The only wheel I can think of that I owned that might be wider was on a Browning Excalibur, I think. Thought it cork screwed the cables to the side. Damned brace height of 10" and whip my forearm like no other bow I ever had. Pristine condition, a collector has it.
The Pro 6000, of course a target bow, but someone painted it for hunting. I started cleanly it and got side tracked.


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## Mahly

I take it back... NOT liking the Sugru. Took it off.


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## Rick!

Mahly said:


> I take it back... NOT liking the Sugru. Took it off.


Little extra feedback in the wrist? I was ok at 1* then added another 2* and am not ok with it. I'll be removing 1* and see if that is my sweet spot.


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## Mahly

To me, it seemed to encourage more torque (vertical). Whatever the reason, I couldn't group vertically with it. Gonna try it again (or shims and wrap) but with much less....may build it up...think I may just have started too big.


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## SonnyThomas

Rick! said:


> Little extra feedback in the wrist? I was ok at 1* then added another 2* and am not ok with it. I'll be removing 1* and see if that is my sweet spot.





Mahly said:


> I take it back... NOT liking the Sugru. Took it off.


My take. We had stuff like this years ago, not the same, but it built up grips or made grips. This new stuff, Sugru, comes out, some big name "proclaims" it as best thing since "sliced bread" and it becomes "you gotta do" so you have the best grip in the world. Today's modern grip is a thought out thing. Feedback from shooters, staff shooters, tested at the factories. Today's grips are so that anyone can "learn" them, adjust to them.

Not to forget. There was a adjustable grip. Great when it came out and now, a thing of the past....Trying to remember...The owner had one of the premier nylon cable slides on the market and the scissors bow pod...and something else. 

And the down side? People don't think alike. "Bow must be junk if you have to correct a grip with that stuff." I don't know how many bows I've owned in the last 15 years, but figure 30. How many bows have I worked on at the shop? 200, 300 or more? That monster wood grip on the Mathews hunting bows, Lord, huge, but they work quite well or Mathews wouldn't have sold a world's worth of them.

Two bow companies I complained of, Athens and Pearson. I hate squared off grips and Athens and Pearson bows felt like 2X4s, worse than 2X4s. So danged sharp, so wide they hurt your hand after shooting them for a while. I guess I was one of the first to complain of the Athens grip when Athens first came out and I got asked why. I gave Rodney "both barrels." I'd note, the Athens Accomplice looked exactly like a spin-off of a Pearson. I thought it was a Pearson. I shot the new bow twice, 2 shots, and handed it back. I didn't like it and said so. 2 shots, arrows slapping together at 30 yards and I didn't like it. I went to the Vortex Open the next year and there was the whole line of Athens bows. Like the new grip? One would have went home with me if my wife wouldn't have "killed" me. It was the same for my 2009 TX4 Pearson. Shot great, but next thing I did was take off the those sharp 2X4 grip panels. Can't remember who at the time, but I told him, Jeremy maybe. We had a "discussion." Evidently, I or others won in the end because the squared off grip was changed. The grip on my MarXman, no panels, just metal. It feels too narrow and I told of it, but it also feels good. The grip on my new MX2 feels great and I told of wanting it on the MarXman. My hand goes plain goes to where it should with the MX2. Others have handled the bow and found the grip outstanding. ??? 15 bows, I think, I've used in competition and every one of them have placed and won.
Now, I have tried different things on the grips of my bows, layered tape, layered cloth with Silk Touch, even the metal tapes (thick, thin, aluminum, copper and steel). Nothing improved and in fact, going back to the plain grip felt the best...


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## ron w

when you tip your hand forward, as with a "high wrist" grip, you have to put more hand into the grip and that builds tension in the hand that eliminates the possibility of establishing the the "bone to bone" condition that reduces the potential to transfer torque to the bow.


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## SonnyThomas

In a word, yes.....


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