# Fishtailing arrows



## The Ry Guy (Sep 28, 2012)

Hello All,
Just getting back into traditional shooting after a 15 year break. Here is the background on my problem... I shoot an old Herters recurve (48# @ 28") with a tab. The archery shop I went to sold me Easton ST Epic 500 spine arrows, with 125 grain points, cut to 29 1/2". They said that would work fine, so that is what I bought.

I could see my arrows fishtail pretty good in flight, so I adjusted my brace height from 7 1/2" all the way to 8 1/2" in 15 turn increments, with no change in the fishtailing. Thinking I may have the wrong spine arrows I looked at Easton's chart, and the correct tip weight for those arrows and my bow should be 75 grains. Bought some of those, put them on and still had fishtailing. So just out of curiosity and frustration I added some weight (some washers behind the head of the 125 grain points) and no more fishtailing. I had my head and washer combo weighed and it comes out 174 grains. 

Would shooting a 175 grain tip be a good idea? I understand that 500 spine arrows are pretty weak in spine, will shooting the heavier tip damage the arrow due to too much flex? The shop I bought the arrows from was not much help when I explained all of this to them. They said it is to be expected to have some wobble in your arrows, especially when shooting a recurve. From what little I know about archery and what I have read here, I just can't accept that as fact.

Any ideas as to what I should do, moving forward?


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

500 is not a "weak" spine out of a bow that it mates to. Heavier points shouldn't hurt a thing. 

If you solved your fishtailing with the points, then you simply modified a recommended arrow to match your bow.

Read up on how to test a carbon arrow for flaws and dangerous wear (Easton's site has instructions). You test with a hand flexing that's a lot more extreme than the arrow's paradox. They're all built to flex just fine as long as you aren't stressing them with extreme mismatches of bow and arrow. 

There may be some perceived "wobble" as the arrow leaves the gate (it is indeed bending), but just barely as the arrow hits stride. Fishtailing is the no-no and requires adjustment.

Congrats on the tuning job.


----------



## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Can we assume the archery shop gave you feathers, and NOT vanes? Feathers are the only thing that will shoot off the shelf.


----------



## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

I have my martin hunter bow setup at 28 inch and 50 lb peak weight.

MY actual arrows are 29 1/2 inch long with three 5.5 inch bananna feathers and the point weight is 125 grains. The rest is I am shooting off the riser.

the nocking point is 1/8 high and I am shootng with a tab and spilt fingers.

I would think by adding point weight, the arrows should be a bigger issue as it would cause more flex in the shaft. I would also think you may be having more of a issue with your nock point or rest...


----------



## ripforce (Feb 15, 2010)

I had a Browning recurve [email protected] that did that with carbon arrows that shot like darts out of my Bama Expi [email protected] indentical spines, I changed nock point, brace height etc still did it! I was shooting off the shelf with no elevated rest, the bow had a real flat shelf so I bumped up the shelf at the deepest part of grip and bumped the side plate out a little the thing shot bow after that! You could try and elevated rest on it too1


----------



## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, the first problem is you don't tell us if the fishtailing is up or down or L and R. The first is NP and the second is spine. Since NP is an easy issue to fix, let's look at spine. When it come to bows, most proshops don't know jack. Carbons can be shot with 500 grains up front. It's a whole debate call FOC. So if you're getting good flight with 175 grains up - no problem. In fact, you'll probably get better penetration - no probablys about it.

Bowmania


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Fishtailing arrows, could be a spine issue, could be a tune issue, could be a form or release issue. Lots of variables. 

For one thing the shop is wrong, you should not expect to have some wobble shooting a recurve. Is it easy to induce wobble from a rough release or bad form? Absolutely. After you are shooting a bit though, fishtailing will be a sign you goofed up on that shot.

Matching an arrow to your bow is also a little more tricky with a recurve or longbow than with a compound and is very much dependent on your shooting skill, or at least shooting consistency.

There is really no way to know what your exact problem is, and it could be a combination of things. Not much help, I know. You don't say what your draw length is, but since you are shooting 29.5" arrows, I'm going to assume somewhere around 28". That would mean that the weight marked on your bow is pretty close to the draw weight at your draw length, and important distinction when it comes to arrows.

As far as the arrows you have, if they are flying well with 175 grain points, that's what I would go with. No point in buying arrows until you can start to eliminate the variable of your shooting. I would have guessed the .500s might be a little weak, but you can't argue with results. Charts and what other people shoot are at best a starting point. This link is a good way to tune your bow/arrow system...http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm 

You probably need to concentrate on shooting for a while though. When you start getting some consistent groups at 15 yards try shooting a couple bare shafts with your fletched, like described in the link. Tuning is an ongoing process, the better you shoot, the better you can tune your bow/arrow system. You don't have to be an expert though, even beginning shooters can realize some benefits from tuning like the link describes. Shooting bare shafts also is a great training aid for you.

If you have $20, this as about the best way you could spend it right now...http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shooting-the-stickbow-book-2nd-edition-by-anthony-camera.html

Some nice instructional videos from member "Moebow"...http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1?feature=watch

Check out the stickied thread at the top of the forum "Form...." by Jimmy Blackmon. He also has some nice videos here...http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD0ESYWAUqh8JXKtxJ8Mnvw

Good luck!


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

"There may be some perceived "wobble" as the arrow leaves the gate (it is indeed bending), but just barely as the arrow hits stride. Fishtailing is the no-no and requires adjustment."

I would like to apologize for, and disagree with, my own statement from Post #2 above. It was poorly worded and misleading.

On a very light poundage bow with too-heavy wooden arrows, such as the one I check form with, I often sense the arrow's launch. "Wobble" is not the word I should have used. Something more like "sense something intangible at the loose" would have been more accurate. On a higher poundage bow things are moving too fast even for this. 

I did not mean to imply that a tuned arrow should "wobble" at all, and certainly didn't want to mislead the OP.

Mea culpa ... my bad ... please forgive ... and remember to brush your teeth with a professionally approved dentifrice after each meal.


----------



## The Ry Guy (Sep 28, 2012)

Thank you all for the suggestions and ideas.

Gnome: Yes, the shop sold me arrows with feathers.

Ripforce: The shelf on my bow already has an elevated rest with the peak about even with the back of the grip, but thanks for the suggestion! 

Bowmania: The fishtailing is left and right. I would call an up down motion porpoising, like a porpoise tail Funny that you mention penetration, because my arrows went considerably deeper into the straw bale even with the small washers(that are a bit larger than the shaft diameter) behind the field point.

Easykeeper: Thank you for the links. I thought that my release may have a bit to do with it, but I had a guy at the proshop watch me shoot (the one who said some wobble is to be expected) and he said my release looked fine? After looking at some of the things you posted, I think i'm pluckng the string on some shots. I video taped my self shooting the other day, and even on the shots where it looked like I had a good release, I still had some fishtailing. I think I will get some 175 grain points and work on my release as well.

Thin Man: Don't worry, all is forgiven! But I prefer to brush my teeth with an unprofessionally unapproved dentifrice after each meal thank you very much:wink:

Again thank you all for your help, I think I will find some 175 grain points and practice my release.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Good luck! Getting things squared away when you are starting out can be frustrating. Post up if you hit a roadblock, there's some really knowledgeable people here...:thumbs_up


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

The Ry Guy said:


> Hello All,
> Just getting back into traditional shooting after a 15 year break. Here is the background on my problem... I shoot an old Herters recurve (48# @ 28") with a tab. The archery shop I went to sold me Easton ST Epic 500 spine arrows, with 125 grain points, cut to 29 1/2". They said that would work fine, so that is what I bought.
> 
> I could see my arrows fishtail pretty good in flight, so I adjusted my brace height from 7 1/2" all the way to 8 1/2" in 15 turn increments, with no change in the fishtailing. Thinking I may have the wrong spine arrows I looked at Easton's chart, and the correct tip weight for those arrows and my bow should be 75 grains. Bought some of those, put them on and still had fishtailing. So just out of curiosity and frustration I added some weight (some washers behind the head of the 125 grain points) and no more fishtailing. I had my head and washer combo weighed and it comes out 174 grains.
> ...


imho?..

Problems:

1. The archery shop dude?....should've never choped'em on ya.

2. I think they are stiff w/ 125gr points.

3. You haven't mentioned your draw length...yet...that i've seen.

Solutions:

1. Heavier Points. (i think 145's or 175's might getcha there)

2. Heavier'er Points (don't be afraid to try 200grs if needed)

3. Bareshaft Tuning.

In closing:

No two bows and no two archers ever shoot exactly the same.

Charts are a good starting point but for reference purposes only...they are not the holy grail.

Bareshaft Tuning..."IS".

Hope that helps..Happy Shooting and most importantly?.."WELCOME"...to our addiction! :laugh: 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You have too much weight up front - use a standard insert and a 100 or 125 grain head and I bet your issues will vanish


----------



## northern boy (Aug 25, 2010)

If your arrows are to stiff I would switch to a mordern string an get rid of the b-50 bow will be faster less hand shock an the new string will be better for your bow. I bet with a new modern string your spine problems will be over. Don,t believe that modern string is bad for bow. Lots of testing say,s it works great on the older bows.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The arrows are either flying nock left or nock right - you have to determine which it is - if you are right handed and they are flying nock right - they are stiff - if they are flying nock left - they are weak. If your nock is too low - this can cause false nock left and right readings - so make sure that you start with the nock higher than you thin you need - and expect nock high flight - solve the left/right issues - then move your nock point down in small increments till you find the sweet spot - some nock high is ok - but you do not want any nock low


----------



## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

Im betting the shafts are just on the stiff side with the 125gr point up front for you. Im shooting a 45# Hoyt Gamemaster 2 @ 28"....Im shooting a 29.5" GT 35/55 Trad arrow (.500 spine) arrow with 250gr. point weight. I get the best paper and bareshaft tune with that much point weight. My bareshafts group perfectly with my fletched arrow out to 25yrds. Use what works BEST FOR YOU.


----------

