# New to bow tuning. Looking for guidelines.



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

I am new to bow tuning/set up and am looking for some general guidelines I can follow when I am adjusting my equipment or that of friends that trust me to work on their bows. 

Anyway,
I am looking for some "rules of thumb" if you will regarding the following:
1. What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the draw weight of your bow? To ATA? How many twists in or out constitutes too many?
2. What does adding or removing twists from your control cables do to draw weight? ATA? How many twists in or out are too many?
3. How does adding or removing twists in your string in conjunction with adding or removing twists in your cable(s) affect your bow?
4. On a dual cam bow, how do you advance/****** the cams to gain proper position and timing? Single cam bow?
5. What is yoke tuning? How is it accomplished? Why is it needed?
6. What is paper tuning? How do you do it?
7. What is walk back tuning? How do you do it?
8. How do you correct cam lean on a single cam bow with a split yoke buss cable? On a dual cam dual control cable bow?
Etc, etc, etc. ANYTHING you want to share that may help another archer!!

Don't feel you have to answer any specific topic mentioned in this thread. If you have a tip, share it.

I am simply trying to document as much tuning knowledge as possible so I can get better at what I am undertaking.
I love this sport and want to learn so I can teach others.

All input is greatly appreciated.

So, if you have a tuning tip or several tuning tips you would like to share on whatever kind of bow, or, whatever kind of equipment (peeps, string stop, string leeches, dloops, stabilizers, sights (target or hunting), strings, monkey tails, speed nocks, cat whiskers, sound deadening fleece, releases [BT, Wrist Strap, thumb] etc) please post them here.
And don't think anything is too small or too big. If I need clarification from you, I will PM you asking for it.

I plan to compile all tips posted and put together a tuning guide that I will make available once it is complete. For free, of course, to AT members.

Archers Helping Archers.

Start sending those tips!!!!

Thanks!!

-Tim

p.s. I did not search the forum for answers to these questions and I'm sure there is a book or two that explains it all. I learn best by reading real life people tell of real life scenarios. Thanks again.


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## bo-w

papper tuning is generally a starting point to start on center shot and look at arrow spine . you shoot a level arrow (shoulder hight ) through paper at short distance and "read" the tear in the paper . form has to be pretty much spot on though . walk back will fine tune center shot and set sight windage . do a search , nuts & bolts has posted a few really good explanations of these tunning methods with pics.


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## BowTechCDR

Thanks bo-w!


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## bo-w

walkback tunning is where you put a perfectly verticle line down the center of youre target . using only youre 20 yard pin shoot 3 at 20 then 3 at 30 then 40 all with the 20 pin. aiming at the same spot. if the groups go 
x
x
x
then adjust the rest a little bit and repeat if the groups slant more go the other way with youre rest untill they look like this 
x
x
x 
if they get in line but dont follow the line you put on the target then adjust sight windage untill the groups follow the line


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## bo-w

crap the top line should be slanted x
x
x


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## bo-w

well slanted think you get the picture


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## BAMBRANCH

First off a good tool is to go to easton and down load their tuning guide. This can be found under Downloads/ Tuning guide.
Second any adj. to a cable or string is like this, The longer you make the string the more Poundage you get and longer DL. The longer you make a cable is less poundage and shorter DL. Shorten both and the poundage goes up. Leanghting makes it go down.
W/ a good center shot your better off adjusting your arrow, or poundage.


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## BowTechCDR

Thanks fellas.

Keep those good tips coming!


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## nuts&bolts

1. What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the draw weight of your bow? To ATA? How many twists in or out constitutes too many?


You have several questions bunched together here.

*1a) What does adding or removing 4 twists or less to the bowstring, do to the draw weight of your bow?*
Answer: You will barely notice any measurable change to the draw weight of the bow.

Answer: Adding or removing 4 twists to the bowstring, or say 6 twists to the bowstring,
may help you tighten up or loosen up the "float" pattern of your sight pin/scope dot/ scope circle.

Answer: You can twist up a bowstring, enough to SHORTEN the bow draw length setting by about 1/4-inch shorter.
Answer: You can usually untwist a bowstring, enough to LENGTHEN the bow draw length setting by about 1/4-inch longer.

Answer: Building a CUSTOM bowstring, one-inch shorter than the factory spec length, or MORE than two-inches shorter, etc.
is called..."SHORT-STRINGING". 

"SHORT-STRINGING" is a technique (kinda last resort technique) to reduce the bow draw length setting, beyond the factory settings.

Say you bought a fixed draw length bow for a great price on EBay,
and the factory draw length setting is 29-inches.

You NEED a 28-inch draw length bow,
and since this is a out of production bow...

you cannot easily get a 28-inch draw length cam for this bow.

So,
you build a custom bowstring, that is SHORT enough,
to bring down the draw length 1-inch shorter. Bowstring might need to be 1.4-inches shorter than factory spec,
bowstring might need to be 2.9 inches shorter than factory spec. This is a kinda gotta guess and try again scenario,
to get the bow draw length setting DOWN to the draw length setting you want.

So,
when you SHORT-STRING a bow, you 

a) make the bow draw length setting shorter (obviously)

AND

b) as a side effect, the holding weight goes UP, and the draw weight goes DOWN noticeably.


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## nuts&bolts

*1b) What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the ATA of your bow?*

Adding a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
is PRIMARILY for fine tuning the draw length of the bow,
in order to tweak how "tight" the sight pattern looks
or
in order to tweak how "loose" the sight pattern looks.

The "sight pattern" is how fast and herky jerky the pin dances around,
when you are holding on the target bullseye. 

ADD a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
and the sight pattern will dance around pretty quickly,
in a tight pattern, say in a pattern about half the size of the bullseye at 20 yards.

REMOVE a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
and the sight pattern will swing and slosh around like stirring molasses,
in a loose, wavy pattern, say in a pattern about the entire size of the bullseye at 20 yards,
or even slightly larger.

Now,
this presumes you are an advanced shooter, and have your draw length bow setting
dialed in very well.



ADDING or REMOVING 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 twists to the BOWSTRING,
will have very LITTLE effect on bow ATA.

ADDING about 20 twists to the bowstring, will drop or add maybe 1/4-inch to your bow draw length setting.
Depends on the number of existing twists in the bowstring.

ADDING or REMOVING 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 twists to the CABLES 
will have a very NOTICEABLE effect on bow ATA. IF your ATA is not quite correct,
then ADD or REMOVE twists to the cables.


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## nuts&bolts

*1c. How many twists to the (bowstring or cables) in or out constitutes too many?*

Rule of thumb is a MAXIMUM of 1 twist per inch...e.g., a 60-inch bowstring would have 60 twists.

Most string makers will make a bowstring or cable with say 1 twist for every 1.5-inches of bowstring length or cable length.
IF we have a 60-inch bowstring, then we would have 40 twists total.

Some string makers will make a bowstring with say 1 twist for every 2.0 inches....e.g., 100-inch solo cam bowstring, would have 50 twists total.


When ADDING twists,
do not go beyond the 1 twist per inch of finished bowstring or cable,
rule of thumb.


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## nuts&bolts

*2. What does adding or removing twists from your cables do to draw weight? ATA? *


The cables on a bow are used to bend the bow limbs,
while the bow is at rest.

ATA is the "axle to axle" measurement,
which is another way of quickly checking the amount of "limb bending"
when the bow is at rest.

So,
let's say we have a 70 lb rated bow.

Let's say we have the limb bolts maxed out.

So,
we hook up the scale,
and we get a peak draw weight reading
of only 67 lbs.

IF we have the correct bowstring length (meets factory spec)...

then,
we have a simple case of the bow limbs NOT BENT ENOUGH,
while the bow is at rest.

ADD twists to the cables
to shorten the ATA,
which is another way of saying,
we are going to bend the limbs MORE,
while the bow is at rest.

Retest the bow with the scale,
and keep ADDING TWISTS to the cables,
until you reach the correct maximum peak draw weight
(70 lbs for this example).


Another example.

Let's say the max poundage rating for the bow is 70 lbs.
We test the peak draw weight,
with the limb bolts at maximum...

and we discover that the bow is drawing at 75 lbs of draw weight.

Not good.

Confirm that you have the bowstring length at factory spec...

and

then,
take TWISTS OUT of the cables,
which will INCREASE the ATA,
which is another way of saying,
we are going to REDUCE the amount of limb bending,
while the bow is at rest.


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## nuts&bolts

*3. How does adding or removing twists in your string in conjunction with adding or removing twists in your cable(s) affect your bow?*

The bowstring and the cables
are like cousins.

They are related,
but not exactly closely related.

So......
if you ADD say 5 twists to the bowstring,
will the ATA shorten?

YES, but not that much.

So......
if you ADD 5 twists to the cables,
will the ATA shorten?

YES, this time the ATA will shorten enough that you can see the difference.
Might be 1/16th inch or so. Depends on how many twists already exist in the cables.


Now,
if you add 5 twists to the bowstring,
will you feel the change in the draw length? Probably.

Will be able to measure the change in the bow draw length setting from adding twists to the bowstring? Yes.

Now,
if you add 5 twists to the cables,
will you feel the change in draw length? Maybe.



The change in draw length from adding a particular number of twists to the cables,
is a very fine adjustment...harder to notice...kinda like a low volume adjustment.

The change in draw length from adding a particular number of twists to the bowstring,
has a more DIRECT effect on draw length...easier to notice...kinda like a medium volume adjustment.

So,
you can change the bow draw length setting with cable twists or with bowstring twists.
Just depends on how large of a fine tuning adjustment you want to make.

WE are talking adjusting the draw length setting by 1/16th inch or 1/8th inch,
when we make Draw Length changes with TWISTS to cables or bowstring.

If we are needing to make 1/2-inch draw length changes,
then we need to adjust the adjustable draw length module
or
we need to swap in a replacement draw length module
or
we need to replace the fixed length cam (expensive...and may need new cables and bowstring).


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## BAMBRANCH

"ADDING or REMOVING 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 twists to the BOWSTRING,
will have very LITTLE effect on bow ATA.

ADDING about 20 twists to the bowstring, will drop or ADD
maybe 1/4-inch to your bow draw length setting.
Depends on the number of existing twists in the bowstring."



????????huh


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## Rusty Scabbard

I twisted cables to dial in my Allegiance. I added 4 twists to both cables. Then added 5 more half-twists to the top cable to time the cams. Timing noticeably changed with each half-twist. A draw board is absolutely necessary. Dave Nowlin's binary tuning guide posted here on AT was a great help. I don't have a chrono or draw scale, but the bow feels so well now I don't plan to tweek anymore until the next string change.
Good luck, and thanks for your service to the USA !


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## Z-Rocket

anyone have any input on - 8. How do you correct cam lean on a single cam bow with a split yoke buss cable?


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## nuts&bolts

*4a. On a dual cam bow, how do you advance/****** the cams to gain proper position and timing? *

At the basic level,
the cables control the starting rotation position of the cams
and
the relative lengths of the cables
affect the ending rotation position of the cams.

Let's start with a twin cam bow.

The top and bottom cam are mirror images of each other.

Good example would be the Martin Archery Nitrous cam or the Martin Archery Furious cam.

Top cam is identical to the bottom cam. Bottom cam is just flipped upside down.











So,
for tuning purposes,
a GOOD starting point,
is to have the FLAT section of the module
hitting the cables at the SAME TIME.

This gives you a SOLID WALL,
which stops the rotation of the cams,
and defines "...FULL DRAW...".


Now,
for "advanced tuning"...

you may want to experiment with having the cams NOT HIT THE CABLES at exactly the same moment,
ON PURPOSE.










Notice,
that the physical center of the riser,
is about where the deepest part of the curve is located on the grip.

Therefore,
the arrow (which most folks have running past the two berger holes...arrow rest mounting holes)...

the arrow is actually located ABOVE the physical center of the bow riser ....height-wise.

So,
find the cable end loop that attaches to a peg located on the SIDE of the top cam, along the perimeter.

If you ADD twists to this cable end loop on the top cam,
then you are SHORTENING this cable,
and you will have the top cam hit the cable later than the bottom cam.

If you REMOVE twists to the cable end loop on the top cam,
then you are LENGTHENING this cable,
and you will have the top cam hit the cable before the bottom cam.

If you want to "advance or ******" a cam,
you are looking for a gap of approximately 1/16th inch
between the cable 
and the flat section of the module.



Here is a writeup by JAVI about Hoyt Draw Stop Timing


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## nuts&bolts

*4b. On a single cam bow, how do you advance/****** the cams to gain proper position and timing? *

Folks sometimes get very picky about terminology.

For a single cam bow,
you have a very very long bowstring,
and
you have a cable.

The metal thingy on the bottom is the cam.

The metal thingy on the top is a idler wheel.


Some folks say a single cam has "no timing"...cuz,
there is only ONE CAM.

Ok.

Let's talk about the starting rotation position
for the metal thingy on the bottom.

Same procedure.

Find the cable end loop that attaches to a peg
on the side/perimeter of the cam (metal thingy on the bottom)
and
ADD twists to this cable end loop
or
REMOVE twists to this cable end loop...

and
you will adjust the starting rotation position
for the metal thingy on the bottom
of a solo cam bow.

To acheive the level nock travel that the bow designer intended...

there is definitely a range of "correct" starting positions
for the cam.


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## nuts&bolts

*5. What is yoke tuning? How is it accomplished? Why is it needed?*

If your bow uses a yoke cable,
where the yoke legs attach to the ends of the axle...

then,
we want to pay particular attention to the lean angles
for the top metal thingy.

Now,
the top metal thingy might be a cam...

the top metal thingy might be an idler wheel...

we want the top cam to be dead vertical,
when the bow is at full draw...

we want the idler wheel to be dead vertical,
when the bow is at full draw.


To test this,
you will need a draw board,
to hold your bow safely at full draw.



















Now,
with the bow at full draw,
hold a carbon arrow
TIGHT against the side of the top cam,
and
rotate the arrow down next to the bowstring.

Look at the edge of the arrow
and
look at the edge of the bowstring.

Is the gap parallel?

Then,
the top cam or idler wheel lean angle is PERFECT.


Is the gap between the arrow and the bowstring,
getting more and more narrow?

Need to put the bow into a portable bow press
and
add twists to the yoke cable leg that is too long.


Is the gap getting wider and wider between the arrow and the bowstring?

Need to put the bow into a portable bow press
and
add twists to the yoke cable leg that is too long.



Keep adjusting the yoke cable leg length,
until you have the bow at full draw in a draw board...

and the gap between the edge of the arrow and the edge of the bowstring
perfectly parallel.


When you have a top cam or an idler wheel...

leaning sideways,
you will drive yourself CRAZY,
trying to get field points and broadheads to hit together.


IF you only shoot target arrows...

then,
your groups will not reach their MAX potential accuracy.


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## nuts&bolts

*7. What is walk back tuning? How do you do it?*

Here you go.



Hang a weighted string from a nail on a target. 

Stick a round sticker on the target face so that the string splits the sticker. 
Use your existing 20-yd pin, step back 20-yards from the target and fire at the sticker. 

Don't worry about where the arrow hits. 

Walk straight back to 30 yds, and using the same 20-yd pin setting, 
fire an arrow at the sticker. 

Repeat at 35 yds and at 40 yds, using the 20-yd pin and firing at the sticker.

If your arrows look like this pattern " / " or “\”, 
then pick a direction and move your arrow rest 1/16th inch. 














If the pattern gets straighter (more vertical), then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction.













If the pattern gets more crooked, then adjust in the other direction.

Keep firing arrows and keep adjusting the arrow rest position until you get a vertical pattern of arrows.

Eventually, your arrows will hit in the target is a straight up and down line like this " | ". 














LOCK down the arrow rest setting. Your centershot is perfect.



But, your vertical pattern of arrows may not be hitting the string. 

The vertical pattern of arrows may be on one side of the string.
Let’s say the arrows are say 6-inches to the left of the weighted string.



Pick a direction to adjust your sight ring windage. 

Adjust the sight ring windage 1/16th of an inch. 

Repeat the test. 

Fire arrows at least 3 distances, and see if the vertical pattern of arrows gets closer to the string like in the picture below.














If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting closer to the string, 
then that is great. 

Keep adjusting in that direction. 

If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting farther away, 

then adjust in the other direction.

Eventually, you will have a vertical pattern of arrows right on top of the string.













Lock down the windage and lock down the arrow rest. Windage and center shot are now perfect.


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## nuts&bolts

7. What is walk back tuning? How do you do it?


I have something that I call MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING,
which does what Walk Back Tuning does, but it is much MUCH easier to do.

The purpose is to get your arrow rest horizontal position perfect
and
to get your sight pins horizontal position perfect (and scope pin/scope dot/scope circle).

I have a simplified version of something called French Tuning.
Don't worry about what this method is called.

Very simple to do.











Hang a target face so the bullseye is at your shoulder height.

Put a nail at the top,
and hang a weighted string,
so the string splits the bullseye in half.

Now,
start at 9 feet. Yup, just 9 feet.

Fire a field point arrow.

If the field point arrow misses the string to the left,
then move all the pins to the left. (Adjust the entire sight housing).

If the field point arrow misses to the string to the right,
then move all the pins to the right.

The goal is to nail the string perfectly.
You want your field point arrow to be exactly below the center
of the bullseye.



Now,
go back to 10 yards.

Fire a 3 arrow group.

Find the center of the arrow group.

If the center of the arrow group is to the left of the string,
move the arrow rest to the right.

If the center of the arrow group is to the right of the string,
move the arrow rest to the left.

Goal is to have the hanging string split your arrow group in half.



Now,
go back to 9 feet.

Fire a field point arrow.

If the field point arrow does not exactly nail the hanging string,
then adjust all of your pins to the left or right,
until the arrow is dead center under the exact center of the bullseye.


Now,
go back to 10 yards.

Adjust the arrow rest in tiny amounts,
until the hanging string splits your 3 arrow group in half.


When you are done,
you can fire a field point arrow from 9 feet
and it will be exactly underneath the center of the bullseye.

Your 3 arrow group from 10 yards,
will also be split in half by the hanging string.



Now, your centershot (arrow rest)
and your windage (pins) will be perfect.


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## nuts&bolts

*8a. How do you correct cam lean on a single cam bow with a split yoke buss cable? *

Now,
on the single cam bow...

the idler wheel is up on top
and the legs of the yoke cable are on the top axle.

So,
if the IDLER WHEEL is leaning,
adjust the legs of the yoke cable,
until the IDLER WHEEL has zero lean,
while the bow is being checked while at FULL DRAW,
while the bow is on a draw board.

All idler wheels will have some lean,
while the bow is at rest,
cuz you have a cable guard,
which pulls the cables out of the way,
and this causes the top axle to dip down on one corner.

So,
put the bow on a draw board,
get the bow safely to full draw,
and then use the carbon arrow ruler trick
(HOLD the arrow tight against the side of the idler wheel, and look at the gap between the edge of the arrow and the edge of the bowstring)
(you want a parallel gap between the arrow and the bowstring).


Now,
if you have a SHORT ATA (axle to axle) bow,
and you notice that the metal thingy on the bottom (cam on a solo cam bow)..

is leaning sideways....

you will also notice that you do NOT have a yoke cable on the bottom axle.

The cable ends in an end loop, 
which attaches to a peg on the side of the cam on the bottom of the bow.

The cam lean angle on a single cam bow (metal thingy on the bottom)
is not adjustable....at least, not easily.

You could swap the order of the precision shims
between the bearings on the cam and the edges of the limb fork,
but I do not recommend this.


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## nuts&bolts

*8b. How do you correct cam lean on a dual cam dual control cable bow?*

A twin cam bow with two cables,
will have two yoke cables....

two yoke cable legs attached to the top axle
two yoke cable legs attached to the bottom axle.

If the cam lean angle is not correct
(you checked at full draw, while the bow was on a draw board)
(you used the carbon arrow ruler trick, with the carbon arrow held TIGHT against the side of the cam)
(you confirmed that the gap between the edge of the arrow and the edge of the bowstring is DEAD PARALLEL)...

then,
put the bow into your portable bow press,
and adjust the length of the yoke cable leg that is TOO LONG.


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## BowTechCDR

nuts & bolts,

You have been fantastically helpful. Thank you. I am just beginning to understand the depth of my ignorance as I read your posts.

One question, and I hope it is not too stupid; During the 'modified french tuning', are you using your 20 yard pin for all shots? Based on your description of where the arrows should be hitting, I would assume the answer is yes and I just want to be sure.

Thanks again for all the help!!


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## STUDENT-ARCHER

BowTechCDR,
Awsome thread! You obviously have gained some experience, thought about what you wanted to know, posed SPECIFIC questions, and have gotten some wonderful advice. WOW this is how it's supposed to work...you not only know how to work on your specific bow, but have info on single and hybrid cams as well, good shooting to you!


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## BowTechCDR

Thanks Student-Archer! 

I thoroughly enjoy all aspects of archery and want to expand my knowledge so I can help other archers. It's great to have the tools and I am getting closer to knowing how to use them proficiently.

Cheers!


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## Bnbfishin

Holy crap Nuts n Bolts how do I get all that to print so I have it for future reference?


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## BowTechCDR

Thanks for the great response so far. Please keep the tips coming.

Things like setting initial nock point, adjusting nock points when paper tuning, setting up rests, tying in drop aways. I could use guidance in all of those areas AND MORE!!!!!!!

You guys are awesome and I know the information I have already gotten is just the tip of the iceberg!

Thanks!


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## BowTechCDR

To the top.


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## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> nuts & bolts,
> 
> You have been fantastically helpful. Thank you. I am just beginning to understand the depth of my ignorance as I read your posts.
> 
> One question, and I hope it is not too stupid; During the 'modified french tuning', are you using your 20 yard pin for all shots? Based on your description of where the arrows should be hitting, I would assume the answer is yes and I just want to be sure.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help!!


Any pin will do.

The intent of Modified French Tuning,
is only intended to adjust for left to right misses.

When shooting at 6 feet,
or any close range distance....
use any pin,
and shoot at a string with a weight on the end...

or

simply a folded piece ...

fold a piece of paper in half,
so you get a vertical edge.

Fire at the vertical edge,
with any pin...
at close range...

and see if you can get half the arrow onto the piece of paper
and
half the arrow off the edge of the piece of paper...

Something like this.










If you miss left...when shooting from 6 feet or less...(point blank range)

then,
move your ARROW REST to the right...

and shoot at that vertical edge again,
and see if you can split the edge with your arrow.


If you miss right...when shooting from 6 feet or less (point blank range)

then,
move your ARROW REST to the left.

Keep trying,
and eventually...

you will get the edge of the folded piece of paper,
DEAD CENTER.


Now,
if you have 20 yards in your backyards...

then,
sure,
use your 20 yard pin,
and shoot arrow groups
at a bullseye.

If you miss left or right,
at 20 yards...

then move your SIGHT PINS,
when shooting longer distances.

You are correcting your sight pin windage,
when shooting longer distance...

any convenient longer distance.

Doesn't have to be 20 yards.
Could be 20 feet,
could be 25 feet,
could be 15 feet...

whatever you have available.

Tweak the sight pins windage
until you have the arrow group CENTERED on the bullseye,
when shooting at longer distances.

Then,
go back to 5 ot 6 feet,
and shoot ONE ARROW
at that folded piece of paper (vertical edge)
and
tweak the ARROW REST,
to get the arrow perfectly centered.

Each time you do the full cycle of point blank shooting (super short distance)
and
longer distance shooting...

the adjustments get smaller and smaller.

Pretty soon,
the longer distance shooting at a bullseye,
will have the arrow group CENTERED on the bullseye...

and

the single arrow at super short distance,
will also be centered on the vertical edge of paper.

Now,
when you don't have to make adjustments...

you should have minimal left-right misses,
at all distance,
short, medium and long range.

All arrow groups should be centered on the bullseye...

assuming,
you are shooting the proper draw weight
and arrow stiffness.


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## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Thanks for the great response so far. Please keep the tips coming.
> 
> Things like setting initial nock point, adjusting nock points when paper tuning, setting up rests, tying in drop aways. I could use guidance in all of those areas AND MORE!!!!!!!
> 
> You guys are awesome and I know the information I have already gotten is just the tip of the iceberg!
> 
> Thanks!


Setting the nock point for your arrow.

The nock point, locates your nock on the center serving,
which means....

you have locked in the amount of bowstring ABOVE the arrow nock,
and
you have locked in the amount of bowstring BELOW the arrow nock.

Unfortunately...
there are several other things
that must be set...

to get level nock travel.


What is level nock travel?

If you are at full draw...

and the arrow is DEAD LEVEL...

we want the arrow to be pushed forward by the bow,
in a DEAD LEVEL flight path.

For DEAD LEVEL flight path...

the top cam and the bottom cam (twin cams...binary systems...hybrid systems)
or
the idler wheel and the cam on the bottom

MUST work together.

So,
this means we have to have the top cam starting rotation position correct,
and
this means we have to have the bottom cam starting rotation position correct,

and

this means we have to have the cable length correct (single cam system)
or
this means we have to have the control/buss cables lengths correct (hybrid systems).


Think of the top cam as a fishing reel,
and the fishing reel has to "reel in" the bowstring (upper portion),
back to the starting length (at rest position).

Think of the bottom cam as a fishing reel,
and the fishing reel has to "reel in" the bowstring (lower portion),
back to the starting length (at rest position).


So,
without a high speed video camera...

we rely on several methods
to figure out YES OR NO....

if the arrows are flying DEAD LEVEL

if the arrows are flying TAIL HIGH

if the arrows are flying TAIL LOW. 


Bareshaft tuning is one way

Paper tuning is another way


Bareshaft AND Paper Tuning require very consistent shooting form.

If you cannot group bareshafts...
then,
do not try bareshaft tuning,
cause the results are mostly like form errors.


Same goes for paper tuning.

If you cannot group arrows say at 20 yards,
then the weird paper tears COULD be form errors
and
COULD be bow tuning problems.


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts,

You ROCK!!!!

Seriously, thanks for all the insight. It is truly appreciated!!!

-Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

If anyone else would like to share some of their tuning tips, please don't be shy! I am looking for tips on EVERYTHING that can help tune a bow to shoot at its best.

Things you may take for granted others may have never heard of. If someone told you something a long time ago that got you an extra 5 fps, let's hear it!

Keep the knowledge flowing!!!!

Cheers!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

FYI everyone,

I AM putting all of this knowledge into a 'tuning guide' and will post it here or post a link to it here. The more tips you post, the better the 'guide' will be. So far it is 16 pages with pictures and large, easy to read font. Keep the tips coming.


----------



## BowTechCDR

One more ttt for the night, well, morning.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Initial Nock Point*



BowTechCDR said:


> Thanks for the great response so far. Please keep the tips coming.
> 
> Things like setting initial nock point, adjusting nock points when paper tuning, setting up rests, tying in drop aways. I could use guidance in all of those areas AND MORE!!!!!!!
> 
> You guys are awesome and I know the information I have already gotten is just the tip of the iceberg!
> 
> Thanks!


*Initial Nock Point* 


Put your bow into a vise,
if you have one.

Otherwise,
hold the bow riser vertical,
and set the initial nock point...

such that the arrow is dead level.

Adjust the arrow rest height,
so that the arrow centerline
runs through the centerline of the two arrow rest holes (berger holes).

This is a good starting point.


Then,
onto field testing.

Shoot arrows and see if you are happy with the arrow group size.

Then,
experiment with the cable lengths (add or remove a twist)
and see if the size of your arrow groups improve or not.

Pick a comfortable distance,
and only judge the "good arrows".

Pull the "bad arrows", the ones you know you did not do your
best on shot execution,
and then evaluate the group size/shape.


Adding a single half twist or maybe a full twist...to a cable

goes a long way for tuning the accuracy of your arrow groups,
when your shooting technique gets advanced enough.

Let's say we are working on the cable end loop
that attaches to the peg on the perimeter of the top cam.

Adding a twist,
obviously shortens the cable going to the top cam,
and this will slow down the top cam,
or realistically,
leaves a gap between the flat section of the top cam (part that contacts the cable)
when the bottom cam is in full contact with the cable.

Removing a twist,
obviously lengthens the cable going to the top cam,
and this will "speed up the top cam"
or realistically,
allows the top cam to contact the cable first,
which means that when the top cam is in contact with the cable...

the bottom cam will have a slight gap.



Soooo,
why would we want to have the cams NOT contact the cables
BOTH at exactly the same time....????

if it improves your group size/accuracy,
then what works for you, is what works for you.

Experiment and see.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks yet again nuts&bolts.

ALL posts from everyone are welcome. 

Share anything you want!!! If it has to do with tuning, let 'er rip!!!

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## tjsjr

Holy crap! I think both our bows need to go see a real pro. It took less than 5 min each when we had our new strings put on. No way they checked and adjusted all that in 5min for $16.


----------



## why3zx

soooo, hows bout i just send my bow, new string, to nuts and bolts


----------



## Anynamewilldo

Lots of manufactures recomend if you like to shoot with max draw weight to crank the limb bolts all the way down then back each one out 1/4 turn so the limb isnt pnched tight to the riser.


----------



## Frederick D. Be

BowTechCDR said:


> nuts & bolts,
> 
> You have been fantastically helpful. Thank you. I am just beginning to understand the depth of my ignorance as I read your posts.
> 
> One question, and I hope it is not too stupid; During the 'modified french tuning', are you using your 20 yard pin for all shots? Based on your description of where the arrows should be hitting, I would assume the answer is yes and I just want to be sure.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help!!


I will bet you had no idea what you would get. These are some of the best explanations out there on bow tuning and there are a bunch of us who just ate this up. Thanks Nuts and Bolts and thanks BowtechCDR for asking the question!!!! Cheers!
Fred


----------



## Bow Me

That is a lot of awesome info. Thanks N&B. :thumbs_up


----------



## Madlaz

Thanks nuts and bolt this is the best tuning thread i have ever seen that was easy to understand wish you would write a book on bow tuning i would be the first to buy it.these tips should be included in every bow manual by every mfg.Still waiting for your addy for dvd


----------



## Clay34

Just tagging this infor so I can find it again later. Thanks for the wonderful discussion. I think it is a great resource. Nuts and Bolts, you should write a book - NO JOKE seriously man.

Rick


----------



## T-mo

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

tjsjr said:


> Holy crap! I think both our bows need to go see a real pro. It took less than 5 min each when we had our new strings put on. No way they checked and adjusted all that in 5min for $16.


Since reading what nuts&bolts has posted, I couldn't agree more.



why3zx said:


> soooo, hows bout i just send my bow, new string, to nuts and bolts


That can not be a bad idea in anyone's mind.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Frederick D. Be said:


> I will bet you had no idea what you would get. These are some of the best explanations out there on bow tuning and there are a bunch of us who just ate this up. Thanks Nuts and Bolts and thanks BowtechCDR for asking the question!!!! Cheers!
> Fred


To your point sir, I did not know that I would get such outstanding information from someone so willing to help.


----------



## BowTechCDR

If anyone wants these tips in a Word document, PM me your email address. The document is a work in progress which I will finish and either post a link to or post here on AT. 

In it's current iteration, the document contains about 80% of what has been posted in this thread.

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt for the afternoon


----------



## nuts&bolts

DRAFT TABLE OF CONTENTS

THE "NUTS & BOLTS" OF ARCHERY

(Last time edited...Oct 2009)

Chapter 1 - All About Sights
Chapter 2 - All About Stabilzers
Chapter 3 - Arrow Rests
Chapter 4 - Arrow Spine
Chapter 5 - Arrow Tuning
Chapter 6 - Back Tension
Chapter 7 - Back Tension and Releases
Chapter 8 - Balance - How Much Do I Really Need?
Chapter 9 - Bow Tuning
Chapter 10 - Building a Bowstring
Chapter 11 - Building YOUR Arrows
Chapter 12 - Glossary


----------



## nuts&bolts

*ALL ABOUT SIGHTS - 2nd Axis*

DRAFT CHAPTER 1.01 - ALL ABOUT SIGHTS: 2nd Axis


All target sights and some hunting sights 
have something called a 2nd axis adjustment.

Well,
if your sight has a bubble level...
then,
you can use the bubble level as a reference check,
to make sure that you are consistent
when it comes to the tilt angle of the bow riser.

Basically,
just before you make the shot,
you confirm that the bubble is DEAD CENTER between the lines
on the bubble level.

Now,
does this mean that the bow riser is dead VERTICAL?

Yes and no.

Depends how YOU like to hold the bow riser,
and
what bow riser sideways tilt angle is
comfortable for YOUR bow hand wrist.











The bubble is centered in the level in the picture above.

The sight will usually have two screws that allow
you to adjust the threaded rod for the scope housing,
until you can get the bubble centered.

This is called ADJUSTING 2ND AXIS.


Now,
if you have ZERO problems with range of motion,
on your wrist,
and
you WANT to have your bow riser vertical...
when you shoot arrows...

then,
we go to the home made bow vise (any bow holding device will do)



















and mount our bow to the home made bow vise,
by attaching the bolt to the front stabilizer hole.











Wooops.

Need to adjust the bow riser tilt angle,
until our trusty 24-inch carpenters level is vertical.


We hold the carpenters level tight against the limb pockets
(along the sides of the pockets)....











and adjust the sideways tilt angle of the bow,
until the carpenters level bubble is DEAD CENTER.

Now,
we use the socket wrench,
and snug up the bolt
on the home made bow holding device
to keep the bow riser vertical.


Now,
follow your owners manual instructions for your sight,
and
adjust the sight bubble level,
until the sight bubble is DEAD CENTER.


DONE.


2nd axis adjustment is complete.


Wait a minute...just a sec.


What if you have broken your wrist in the past,
and
rotating your wrist ENOUGH so that the bow riser is VERTICAL
is painful,
or not even possible for YOU?


No worries.




















This is a Right Handed riser,
that belongs to "Old Pro" .

Old Pro prefers to tilt the top of his bow off to his right.

So,
as long as the vertical slide of the target sight is DEAD VERTICAL...

then, your sight marks will be just fine.

IF the vertical slide of the target sight is VERTICAL,
then...

the scope threaded rod is also DEAD HORIZONTAL,
and
the scope housing will be adjusted VERTICALLY UP in a straight line (plumb)
and
the scope housing will be adjusted VERTICALLY DOWN in a straight line (plumb).


Sooooo,
if YOU want to tilt your bow sideways (also called canting your bow sideways)...

go right ahead.


Only thing we need to do,
is adjust the bottom sight mount screw
by adding shims.

Most target sights have a slotted screw hole
that allows you to "cant" the vertical slide a small amount.

If the adjustment for tilting the vertical slide sideways is not enough,
then we have to add shims under one of the sight mount screws.


You can cut up an aluminum soda can,
into rectangular strips,
and punch a hole,
and use these as very precise thickness shims.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*DRAFT CHAPTER 1.02 - ALL ABOUT SIGHTS: 3rd Axis*

*3rd AXIS*

So,
some target sights and some hunting sights
have what is called "3rd Axis Adjustment".

So,
what is 3rd axis?

I like to call 3rd axis the "door swing angle" adjustment feature.


Let's go back to the scope housing.







































Let's say we are out shooting a 3D course,
and
we are not paying attention,
and we SLAM our scope housing into the trunk of a tree.

Nothing is permanently damaged...lens is just fine...
BUT,
the scope housing just ROTATED towards us,
kind alike OPENING a DOOR towards us....(assume the door OPENS IN).

Now,
the bubble still is reading DEAD CENTER,
when we have the arrow level.


2nd AXIS is still OK.


BUT....

when we rotate the bow forward,
for that steep downhill shot...

the bubble goes PLUMB CRAZY
and screams over to the edge of the bubble level,
and we cannot even see the bubble.

This is because the "door swing angle" is way way waaaay out of whack.



Same thing,
when we raise the bow to pretend to take a severe uphill shot.

Bubble level on the sight goes PLUMB CRAZY
and the bubble screams over to the other edge of the bubble level,
and we cannot even see the bubble.


So,
how do we fix this?


Well,
you COULD use a levelling jig.

It is just a piece of heavy aluminum angle iron,
with a large bubble level attached to the horizontal arm of the angle.











It has 4 levelling screws,
and you tweak the screws until the jig is level.

Now,
attach your sight mount
and
attach your sight to the jig.











Set the arm of your sight to horizontal,
and double check that the sight bubble reads DEAD CENTER.


Now,
loosen the jig knob,
and rotate the sight arm to a severe uphill angle.











If the "door swing angle" is out of whack,
then...

the sight bubble level will NOT stay in the center,
even though the jig bubble level is DEAD CENTER.











"Houston"......."we have a situation".

So,
we break out the owners manual for our sight,
and we loosen a screw or two
and
we adjust the "door swing angle"
and
we try "swinging the door swing angle" either away from our face, or towards our face...

and eventually,

when the sight arm is UPHILL,
the sight bubble STAYS dead center,

and

when the sight arm is DOWNHILL,
the sight bubble STAYS dead center,

and

when the sight arm is HORIZONTAL,
the sight bubble STAYS dead center.



Soooo,
if you have NEVER checked your sight 3rd axis
(hunting pin sight or target sight with a scope)...

and
you have wondered why your longer range shots would miss to the right,
and
you have wondered why your shorter range shots (same day) would miss left....
and
you wondered why your medium range shots were dead on....

check 3rd axis.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Draft chapter 1.05 - all about sights: Clarifiers*

*CLARIFIERS*

So,
if you shoot a target sight with a scope,
and
your eyes are older than 40 years or so....

the image you see inside the scope lens may not be quite as sharp, in focus,
as you remember for last year's indoor season.

Kinda like an autofocus camera that has forgotten how to autofocus.


The human eyeball also has a lens,
and this lens gets less and less flexible over time.

When the human eyeball lens is no longer flexible enough,
to focus on close range images (reading a book or newspaper)...

then,
this same shooter may also have trouble getting his/her scope image to be
nice and sharp (in focus).


One trick you can try,
is to use the "pinhole" camera trick,
i.e.,
to go and try a smaller and smaller peep sight opening size (aperature).

You can purchase peep sights with the opening as small as:

1/32nd inch
or
3/64ths inch
or 
1/16th inch
or 
3/32nds inch
or
1/8th inch.

Now,
as the peep sight opening gets smaller and smaller,
the image you see will get more and more in focus,

BUT...

the image will also be darker.


Everything has advantages and disadvantages.


So,
sooner or later...

older shooters will eventually go and try a CLARIFIER Peep Sight Insert.

This is a peep sight with a teeny tiny lens
(reading glass peep sights for shooters).

Specialty Archery makes the peep sight housings,
and
peep sight inserts with no lens
and
peep sight inserts with a lens (clarifier peep sight inserts).


Now,
to be clear,
the clarifier peep sights
are for use with a target scope housing with a LENS,
and...

the clarifier lens
only clears up the TARGET IMAGE, 
which is 20 yards away for indoor ranges..

or

the TARGET IMAGE could be up to 80 yards away on a field archery course.


The Scope Lens is similar to the large lens on the end of a pair of binoculars.
The Clarifier Lens is similar to the EYEPIECE on the other end of a pair of binoculars.


The Clarifier Lenses come in 3 strengths (low, medium and high).

The threads on the side of the Clarifier Lens Insert are color coded with a dot of paint.

Yellow Code is the weak strength.
Green Code is the medium strength.
Red Code is the high strength.


Now,
if you have a pin sight,
and you have trouble see the PINS on your sight...

a Clarifier Peep sight insert will not help you.


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts,

You have taught me more in 2 days than I have learned in the past 2 years!

Thank you.

-Tim


----------



## zhunter62

wow great info. got to keep up with this one.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*DRAFT CHAPTER 10.04 - BUILDING A BOWSTRING: How to Tie a Center Serving*

Howdy folks:

So,
you just happen to have a spool of your favorite center serving,
and
you purchased an inexpensive serving tool....










(Spigarelli is on the left....Cavalier is on the right)

just in case.

The d-loop is worn out.
The center serving is really worn out,
and the area under the d-loop knot has separated.


You are almost ready to try out your FIRST TIME
at installing a CENTER SERVING.


Now,
me, myself and I...

cuz I like to build strings,
I have a device called a string stretcher.

All a string stretcher really is,
is two heavy duty ANGLE BRACKETS
and
threaded hooks.




















These Heavy Duty Angle Brackets
are designed to be mounted on electrical channel,
sometimes called UniStrut
and
sometimes called SuperStrut.

The electrical channel is "U" shaped,
and you can use special rectangular nuts
that allow you to quickly slide the Angle Brackets
any where along the 10-foot piece of channel.

Once you lock down the Angle Brackets..

then,
cause the threaded section of the hooks are about 3-4-inch long,
you can put as much as 300 lbs of tension on the bowstring or cable,
and the Heavy Angle Brackets will hold up to the stretching pressure.


































































.

.

.


----------



## nuts&bolts




----------



## nuts&bolts




----------



## nuts&bolts

*Step by Step Instructions for How to Tie a Center Serving*

If you have taken your bowstring off the bow,
and
you have rigged up some kinda stretching device...

I like to take the serving thread
and tie off on the hook on the left hand side.


If you are installing a new center serving,
while the bowstring is on the bow....

find some place handy on the bow,
on the left side to tie off the end of the serving thread
coming off the serving tool.

(See Photo 1)


Pull out enough serving thread
to get to the right hand edge
of where you want the center serving.

At this point,
I like to have the serving tool go around the bowstring
to form a circle,
and then run the serving tool
through the circle...

(See Photo 2)

and now pull tight,
to take out the slack

(See Photo 3)

Now,
use your serving tool
and start serving from your right side,
and around and around and around and around and around,
and MAKE SURE that your serving tool
is travelling towards your left,
where you tied off the end of the thread
along the left side of your bow.


Ok.

Let's say we are installing a 5-inch long center serving.

Whip out your ruler,
and confirm you have arrived at the 5-inch length mark.


Now,
UNWIND the serving tool,
say about 12 wraps
(go backwards 12 times, undoing about 12 wraps).

Now,
PULL OUT say 12-inches of SLACK,
and FORM a HORSESHOE....(large loop.


In the photos,
the wraps go down towards the floor

then

the wraps go up between my body and the bowstring,

then

the wraps go back down between the window and the bowstring.


NOW,
we are going to run the serving tool
UNDER the HORSESHOE
and
AROUND the BOWSTRING
and
UNDER the HORSESHOE
and
AROUND the BOWSTRING....

you are going to run the serving tool
UNDER and THROUGH the horseshoe,
12 times...

the serving tool is now travelling TO YOUR RIGHT.

(See Post #57, photos 1-5).


Now,
in Post #57, 
Photo 5...

you can see that I pulled out some slack
and placed the "serving tool" around the right hand hook.

If you are installing your center serving,
with the bowstring on the bow....

just pull out some slack from the serving tool,
and place the serving tool
anywhere that is handy,
say wrapped around the axle
to your right.


Now,
you need to keep one hand (left hand)
around the peak of the horseshoe
to keep the horseshoe open.


Now,
Post #57,
photos 6 and beyond...

you grab the horsehoe,
and keep wrapping the horseshoe,
in the same direction you have been going all along....

for this example,
the HORSESHOE

wraps DOWN towards the floor

then

wraps UP between my body and the bowstring

then

wraps DOWN between the window and the bowstring...

again and again and again...(total of 12 times, for this example)...


When you do this a total of 12 times,
you get to Post #58, Photo 1.


When all the wraps "INSIDE the horseshoe" are gone,
the bottom of the horseshoe
gets narrower and narrower,
until it forms a sharp triangle.



Now,
go back to the serving tool
and
start pulling on the serving tool
and...

the "TRIANGLE" shaped horseshoe,
starts getting smaller and smaller.

(Post #58, photos 5 - 9.

PULL on the serving tool REALLY HARD,
and
you have now locked down your center serving.


----------



## Waknstak6

Love the french tuning, but if you were to do all that, would you possibly mess up your paper tuning? If your bow is shooting bullet holes, and you do all that rest moving, and possibly nock moving, you may no longer have the bullet hole. Unless, french tuning wouldn't be needed for a bow that already shoot great thru paper?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Waknstak6 said:


> Love the french tuning, but if you were to do all that, would you possibly mess up your paper tuning? If your bow is shooting bullet holes, and you do all that rest moving, and possibly nock moving, you may no longer have the bullet hole. Unless, french tuning wouldn't be needed for a bow that already shoot great thru paper?


All tuning techniques,
are TOOLs.

So,
if you prefer paper tuning,
then...

go out to the practice range,
and
shoot 10 yards
and shoot 40 yards
and shoot 60 yards.

If your arrow rest centershot is perfect,
and
if your sight pins windage is perfect...

then,
your 10 yard groups will be centered on the bullseye

and

your 40 yard groups will be centered on the bullseye

and

your 60 yard groups will be centered on the bullseye.

So,
you are finished fixing the arrow rest centershot
and
you are finished fixing the sight pins windage.


Now,
if your 10 yard groups are centered perfectly,
but...

you notice that your 50 yard and 60 yard groups
are NOT centered....

then,
you still have some more adjusting to do.

You can double check the paper tuning results...
you can try modified french tuning...
you can try bare shaft tuning...
you can try group tuning...


so,
the goal is to use your favorite tuning method,
to help you get your arrow groups CENTERED on the bullseye
at short range distances,
at medium range distances,
and
especially at long range distances.

So,
try multiple methods of tuning,
and find the method that works for you,
in order to get real world results.

Don't worry about messing up that perfect bullet hole.

Keep tweaking your form,
keep tweaking your bow setup,
until you get the arrow group results that make you satisfied.


----------



## BowTechCDR

So............much.....................to..................................think................................................about....................................................

Simply outstanding. Thanks for all the information you have shared n&b!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Originally posted by Deezlin (with some help from nuts&bolts and others):

Serving Nockset Tieing and D-Loops

I was contacted by kenn1320 with a question on serving nocksets and D-loops. This topic has been discussed here before, but I thought I would start a new thread on the subject.

I always use serving nocksets in conjunction with D-loops. I feel this is the best of both worlds. On my hunting bows, I use a serving nockset on top only and a eliminator cushion button under or a small electrical grommet.

My center serving is .022 Brownell Diamondback. I use .026 Brownell Crown serving for my nocksets. In addition to position the arrow's nocking point, nocksets can be use for a number of other things, such as tieing in kisser buttons, rest pull ropes on drop-aways and peep sight slip collars. 

In this picture I have already determined the nock position. I have clamped a set of hemostats to the string to hold the position of the nock. I start the nockset by wrapping the serving around the string and crossing like the beginning of a square knot and then tighten.








After the first knot is positioned and tightened. I wrap the loose ends around the string and cross and then tighten the next knot opposite to the first. I will do this for 10 times to the lower end of the nockset and then 4 times to the top.








After I have completed 10 knots, terminated the lower set by tying a square knot and then will cut off the ends and melt the end and knot together. 








I remove the hemastats and complete the top serving nockset. I allow about a total of 1/32 to maybe a 1/16 of clearance between the nocksets and the nock. This avoids nock pinch at full draw and does not seem to hurt arruracy.

This is the completed upper and lower nocksets.








D-Loop

I have completed tying in my D-loop. I melt the first ball on the rope and then wax the rope before beginning. I am left handed and if the loop looks backwards too you, it probably is. I do not hold my release tilted too much and I can see little importance as to which is tied which way. But, it is important to tie the knots opposite to each other. 








To take up slack in the D-loop and tighten it. I insert a pair of needle nose pliers to open the loop.








Then I open the pliers with both hands to tighten the D-loop. 










This is the completed D-loop. Now, may people feel the nockset should be equal is size so the release will be behind the nock. However, in actuality, you are pulling slightly up on the D-loop at full draw. IMO, the release is more behind the nock here than if the nocksets had been equal.

One other note, I use micro-adjustable rests. With a drop-away, I set the nock square to the rest. With a blade rest or non drop-aways, I usually set the nock about 1/8" high. I very rarely move the nocksets once they are tied. If you had to you can try to thread them down or up the center serving, sometimes this works. Normally though, I only make tuning adjustments at the cables or rest for eleveation. 








You might like to try this. File a groove near the end of the pliers to help get a good lock on the loop.








Maybe a picture of how to tie a D-loop would make this thread perfect!!! 








A few people have asked about how to get the serving tight. This is one way I have used and it works great.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=375752

What's the reasoning behind doing more knots at the bottom vs. the top? This is very similar to how I've been doing mine for a while now...great info...and great post Deezlin. 

It changes the center of force
for the d-loop.

The hook on your release will always find the "middle point"
of the d-loop by itself.

If the bottom knot is a little bigger,
it will put the nock of the arrow slightly above the "middle point"
of the d-loop.

This results in a slightly "down" pressure
on the arrow against the arrow rest.

Folks who do the larger
knot on the bottom of the nock
inside a d-loop also feel that it
helps the shooter to apply the pulling force more
directly behind the arrow.

It's how I always do mine, as well.
Deezlin just takes better pictures, than I do.

Those are called tied nocking points
or tied nock sets.

After they are tied, just coat them with some superglue.

The tied nocking points
form a "series of grooves"
that mesh with the "grooves" in the center serving,
just like a nut going up and down a bolt.

No slipping.
Spins up and down the center serving.

Allows very fine adjustment.

Here is another article on nock set and similar setup which many might want to read.

http://www.archerylive.com/forums/in...?showtopic=429


----------



## BowTechCDR

Originally posted by Dave Nowlin:

Binary cam tuning simplified.

Syncing cams, setting drawlength, setting letoff and determing exact point of rollover to deliver most mechanical advantage (reflected as speed).

There's way more to this than you realize. As you add twists to a cable you add more degrees of rotation, thus more draw length. This has to be corrected with the string and the limb pre-load (A to A) can't change as that would increase or decrease draw weight. Of course if you increase draw weight or poundage you will gain speed. We're looking for the perfect sweet spot in the cam. I talked with Michael last night and he spent 8 1/2 hours doing this to his personal bow. With the right tools this time can be greatly decreased. This is why I personally recommend the E.L.P. press designed by Larry Asford who is a PSE Pro Staffer. It has a built in timing machine (vertical drawboard). This is a tremendous help, to be able to use the same machine to press my bow and adjust strings and cables and checking drawlength and synching cams and setting the drawstop. I don't pay any attention to the numbers on the scale on the adjustable drawstop as once the cams are properly synched and the bow is timed for optimum rollover then I simply use a digital scale to determine draw stop setting if I'm looking for less than 80% letoff or a direct measurement if I'm looking for maximum letoff which may not always be exactly 80%. It may be 77% or 78% or whatever. It is the setting which yields the highest letoff and longest valley. Now that I've said all that, do you know how or more importantly do you have the tools. You'll need a press, drawboard of some sort, chrono & digital scale as a minimum to do this right. 

I'm more than a little amused that BowTech says you can set up one of these bows by simply showing a certain number of dots outside the limb face. Let me endeavor to explain a few things. First the cams on these bows are indeed mirror images of one another but you don't draw from the true center of the string. That alone will negate the idea of tuning perfectly by utilizing the dots. The problem doesn't stop here however as the limbs are graded by deflection numbers. In simple terms their strength or resistance to bending. There are plus or minus specs as regards these limbs, just as there are for A to A and brace height. Now this is getting more complicated. What do you think the chances are of you getting two perfectly matched limbs on your bow? Do you have any idea what the quality control costs would be in perfectly matching limbs? You wouldn't pay it. Now let's look at the bow. One of several things is true. The upper limb is on the plus side of the spec and the lower is on the minus or possibly the reverse of this scenario. Then again maybe both limbs are on the positive side but not perfectly matched or maybe they're both on the neagtive side and not matched. All of these are possibilities. Have you wondered why in looking at the birth certificate of a 70# bow some may be right at 70# and some as high as 71.5# or so. Think about this . If you insist on setting each of these bows up at the same A to A the differences in strengths of the limbs causes these differences in peak draw weight. How many of you have really thought about that before? Now to synching the cams. The cams are in sync when the draw stops on the modules of each cam contact the cables at the same time at full draw. If one draw stop makes contact before the other it begins to bend that cable back toward you until the other finally hits the cable. This in effect shortens the cable which had first contact. This will shorten your valley when the bow is at maximum letoff and reduce the maximum letoff which can be achieved. Your not through yet. To achieve maximum letoff you must set the adjustable drawstop so that it hits the limb face with about a 1/16 inch gap between the draw stops on the modules and the cables. Why? It's simple, observe the adjustable drawstop, you will see that it is covered by a piece of heat shrink tubing with a bulge in the middle. This bulge is caused by an O ring. When you draw hard into the wall this O ring is compressed. If you set the adjustable draw stop up in a way that allows the draw stops on the modules to make contact when the adjustable drawstop first touches the limb you will distort the cables back toward you as the cam rolls over further as you compress the O-ring. When you do this you shorten your valley and reduce your letoff. Now finding the perfect point of rollover on your cam involves making adjustments in the exact point of rollover to get the greatest speed without changing draw weight or draw length. This is done with the help of a chrono, which is the sole judge of your results. When you find this perfect point of rollover, I like to scribe my cams on each side of the limb with a machinists scribe for future reference. Now for the fun part. Yor reference point here is the limb face. Should you somehow have a limb failure and replace one or both limbs with limbs which aren't absolutely identical to the ones removed, your reference points are no longer valid and you will have to rediscover the perfect point of rollover. Take heart though in the fact that it won't be to far away from the original marks you made. It just won't be in the same place.

That's as far as I'm going in this post. Tuning the bow for center shot and tuning a LimbDriver are another subject for another day.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Nock Travel Measuring Devices (Two Examples)*

Here are two examples of Vertical Nock Travel Recording Devices

First example was constructed by Old Buck.







































Second example was built by a fellow down under, in Australia.





















I also built my version,
but....sorry, I don't have any photos.


Build a long, long wooden cross or Capital Letter "T".

Add shims and 1x4 pieces of wood to keep the bow limbs
perpendicular to your work table.

Bolt down the riser above the grip and below the grip.
Do this solidly,
cuz you want absolutely ZERO movement on the riser.


A nock travel device

is REALLY measuring the rate of upper limb bending,
per inch of d-loop movement 

and

REALLY measuring the rate of lower limb bending,
per inch of d-loop movement,

and

how the top cam or idler wheel is allowing bowstring to "unreel"
(remember the fishing reel example)
(inches of bowstring payout for every inch of d-loop movement)

and

how the bottom cam is allowing bowstring to "unreel"
(inches of bowstring payout for every inch of d-loop movement).


Sooooo,
what if the upper limb is bending faster?

Sooooo,
what if the lower limb is bending faster?


If we ASSUME,
that the top cam
and
that the bottom cam...

both go through 1.8 complete revolutions to get to full draw....

and

since the d-loop is NOT in the physical center of the bowstring

(most of the time, the d-loop is physically CLOSER to the top cam)

and

(bottom cam must payout more bowstring...to get level nock travel)

and

(top cam must payout less bowstring...to get level nock travel)...


Whew.....

so much work,
so much math,
for the bow designer
to figure out how to get the upper limb bending rate / upper cam bowstring payout
to work with the lower limb bending rate / lower cam bowstring payout.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*So....why level nock travel? Why tiller tune? Why advance/****** a cam on purpose?*

Excellent questions.

If you can shoot lights out,
at say 80 yards (max distance for NFAA field archery)

or

you can shoot lights out,
at say 90 meters (about 100 yards max distance for mens FITA tournaments)

or

you want to goto Vegas and scare a few of the mens pro shooters....

then...


a) you have a goal

b) you spent hundreds of hours "blindly" trying this tuning method and that tuning method to figure out the premium bow settings, and bouncing back and forth

between whether the bow is tuned to the MAX
or
whether your shooting execution is tuned to the MAX
or
your arrow specs are tuned to the MAX.


Software programs are available,
to help you tune your arrow specs to the MAX.

Before the archery software for arrows,
I would spend way too much time,
experimenting with different arrow setups for myself,
and for my students. Now, with OnTarget2 and other software programs,
figuring out the perfect arrow specs takes minutes.


Getting your shot execution near perfect...

you have access to pro level coaching

you have access to lots of advice here on AT

you have access to a growing wealth of books and DVDs from famous authors/coaches.



This only leaves,
figuring out if your bow is adjusted to the maximum level of "forgiveness",
so you have an edge.

Lots of tuning methods...

paper tuning
walk back tuning
French Tuning (as described by John Dudley)
Modified French Tuning (my version, which only fixes horizontal misses)
Group Tuning
Tiller Tuning


all these methods to tune your bow,
so you can reach your MAX potential for accuracy and group size.


Just like a draw board,
gives you an edge,
to get you close to the correct cam starting rotation position,

and

gives you an edge,
to get super accurate measurements for draw length, peep radius, peep height...


a nock travel device,
lets you see and record...

how close you are to perfectly level nock travel.

The theory is that when you find the correct combination of bow settings
(*tiller* and *cam starting rotation position *and *cable lengths*)

then,
when the riser is dead vertical...

then,
the arrow nock will travel in a perfectly level horizontal line.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Hoyt Cam-1/2 Tuning Attachment*

Here is better quality photo of the Hoyt Cam-1/2 Tuning method,
as described by JAVI.

I made the image larger,
and tweaked the color photo for better clarity.


----------



## Skeeter 58

Wow some very helpful information here.:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


----------



## Moose364

Dang there is some great Info on here. 
Nuts & Bolts a BIG thank You for taking your time to share all of this. 
I'll be saving all of this into MS word tomorrow.


----------



## jim p

I saw a reference to chapters and a table of contents. Does this indicate that Nuts & Bolts has a book that I can buy?


----------



## 13fist

jim p said:


> I saw a reference to chapters and a table of contents. Does this indicate that Nuts & Bolts has a book that I can buy?


yeah this!


----------



## nuts&bolts

jim p said:


> I saw a reference to chapters and a table of contents. Does this indicate that Nuts & Bolts has a book that I can buy?


Just a table of contents,
and
an index.....for now.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Great stuff, all of it!


----------



## PossumValleyBoy

Lot of good info spreading in this thread. Thanks to people willing to help


----------



## BowTechCDR

PossumValleyBoy said:


> Lot of good info spreading in this thread. Thanks to people willing to help


x2!!


----------



## CEC81561

Bowtech, if u get this downloaded shoot me a PM with info, would love to print off and place in binder> Terrific info!! Hats off to nuts&bolts!!!!:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:77:


----------



## zhunter62

BowTechCDR said:


> x2!!


You have a pm, i am working on this too, but would love to see how you wrote it out.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Walk Back Tuning pictures as jpg files*



nuts&bolts said:


> *7. What is walk back tuning? How do you do it?* (/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Here you go. I have attached the pictures as jpg files.


----------



## bo-w

can we make this a stickey? great info mods please?


----------



## BowTechCDR

To all that have asked:
I do have the vast majority of this thread in a Word document and will email it to anyone that PMs me their email addy.

It is a 3MB file so if you have message size limits in your email configuration, you may not get it. I know 3MB is not huge and some ISPs limit their email file size to several hundred KB.

Cheers!

-Tim


----------



## Fleahop

why3zx said:


> soooo, hows bout i just send my bow, new string, to nuts and bolts


Send my equipment are you nuts....I want to adopt him or be adopted, move in and become an archery sponge for ...Well forever. If I just knew 1/2 of what this guy as forgot WOW!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Fleahop said:


> Send my equipment are you nuts....I want to adopt him or be adopted, move in and become an archery sponge for ...Well forever. If I just knew 1/2 of what this guy as forgot WOW!


I'm with you. To just soak up the knowledge would be great!!!!


Keep the good tips coming everyone. Keep nuts&bolt's posts company here in the cold, vast AT general discussion forum!!


----------



## jamerman09

nuts&bolts said:


> *3. How does adding or removing twists in your string in conjunction with adding or removing twists in your cable(s) affect your bow?*
> 
> The bowstring and the cables
> are like cousins.
> 
> They are related,
> but not exactly closely related.
> 
> So......
> if you ADD say 5 twists to the bowstring,
> will the ATA shorten?
> 
> YES, but not that much.
> 
> So......
> if you ADD 5 twists to the cables,
> will the ATA shorten?
> 
> YES, this time the ATA will shorten enough that you can see the difference.
> Might be 1/16th inch or so. Depends on how many twists already exist in the cables.
> 
> 
> Now,
> if you add 5 twists to the bowstring,
> will you feel the change in the draw length? Probably.
> 
> Will be able to measure the change in the bow draw length setting from adding twists to the bowstring? Yes.
> 
> Now,
> if you add 5 twists to the cables,
> will you feel the change in draw length? Maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> The change in draw length from adding a particular number of twists to the cables,
> is a very fine adjustment...harder to notice...kinda like a low volume adjustment.
> 
> The change in draw length from adding a particular number of twists to the bowstring,
> has a more DIRECT effect on draw length...easier to notice...kinda like a medium volume adjustment.
> 
> So,
> you can change the bow draw length setting with cable twists or with bowstring twists.
> Just depends on how large of a fine tuning adjustment you want to make.
> 
> WE are talking adjusting the draw length setting by 1/16th inch or 1/8th inch,
> when we make Draw Length changes with TWISTS to cables or bowstring.
> 
> If we are needing to make 1/2-inch draw length changes,
> then we need to adjust the adjustable draw length module
> or
> we need to swap in a replacement draw length module
> or
> we need to replace the fixed length cam (expensive...and may need new cables and bowstring).


I have a question for you Nuts and Bolts. what effect does adding twist to your cables or string have on your brace height?


----------



## Blackbery Holow

Great info


----------



## ballison90

jamerman09 said:


> I have a question for you Nuts and Bolts. what effect does adding twist to your cables or string have on your brace height?


I am nowhere close to having the knowledge that nuts&bolts has but I think I can answer this one, if you add twists to a string or cable it changes the deflection of the limbs at rest, ever so slightly, which will move the string closer or further away to the riser, depending on weather you added or removed twists. to magnify this effect for clarification purposes, think of your bow without a string on it, the limbs go straight out, now hold a string across the cams without deflecting the limbs, measure your brace height, put the string back on the bow, you compress the limbs, moving the string back from the riser. so essentially adding or removing twists has the same effect, just on a much smaller scale. I claim to be no expert tuner and am actually pretty new to tuning, I am pretty sure I explained this effect correctly, if not, I hope someone more experienced will correct me.


----------



## BowTechCDR

ballison90 said:


> I am nowhere close to having the knowledge that nuts&bolts has but I think I can answer this one, if you add twists to a string or cable it changes the deflection of the limbs at rest, ever so slightly, which will move the string closer or further away to the riser, depending on weather you added or removed twists. to magnify this effect for clarification purposes, think of your bow without a string on it, the limbs go straight out, now hold a string across the cams without deflecting the limbs, measure your brace height, put the string back on the bow, you compress the limbs, moving the string back from the riser. so essentially adding or removing twists has the same effect, just on a much smaller scale. I claim to be no expert tuner and am actually pretty new to tuning, I am pretty sure I explained this effect correctly, if not, I hope someone more experienced will correct me.


I think your example and explanation is quite good. The picture I have in my head is crystal clear.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> I am nowhere close to having the knowledge that nuts&bolts has but I think I can answer this one, if you add twists to a string or cable it changes the deflection of the limbs at rest, ever so slightly, which will move the string closer or further away to the riser, depending on weather you added or removed twists. to magnify this effect for clarification purposes, think of your bow without a string on it, the limbs go straight out, now hold a string across the cams without deflecting the limbs, measure your brace height, put the string back on the bow, you compress the limbs, moving the string back from the riser. so essentially adding or removing twists has the same effect, just on a much smaller scale. I claim to be no expert tuner and am actually pretty new to tuning, I am pretty sure I explained this effect correctly, if not, I hope someone more experienced will correct me.


Very good.

Brace Height is used as a quick check method to figure out if the Cam Starting Rotation Position is correct.

Now,
the cables and the bowstring are related, cuz they are like second cousins.
The cables and the bowstring are related, but not really close relatives.


So,
if we add 5 twists to the cables ONLY (one cable for the solo cam bow...two cables for the twin cam or hybrid cam systems)...
you will affect the cam starting rotation position a LOT.


If you add 5 twists to the bowstring ONLY,
you will affect the cam starting rotation position, a LITTLE.


So,
if brace height is what you want to get back into spec,
I would twist up the cables (or remove twists).

So,
if draw length is what you want to tweak,
then I would twist up the bowstring (or remove twists).


So,
back to the second cousins thing.

If you ADD or REMOVE 5 TWISTS to the bowstring,
you affect the DL noticeably (say 1/16th inch adjustment)
and you affect the Brace Height a teeny tiny itsy bitsy amount....(maybe 1/50th of an inch....or about 1/3 less)


If you ADD or REMOVE 5 TWISTS to the cables,
lets say you adjust the Brace Height by 1/16th inch...
then,
the draw length will be adjusted by a very very teeny amount.


So,
you can also use this to your ADVANTAGE,
when tuning or "super-tuning" your draw length.


Use MODULES to adjust your draw length, to get within 1/2-inch of your PERFECT draw length
(PERFECT draw length for YOU...is where you get max accuracy).

Now,
you are within 1/2-inch of your MAX POTENTIAL accuracy...(groups are getting better than before...you have tried 2 or 3 different module sizes).

Now,
you twist the bowstring
or
you untwist the bowstring,
to get the DL between module sizes
(you can adjust the BOW DL setting by a max of 1/4-inch SHORTER or 1/4-inch LONGER....with twists to the bowstring).

You are shooting now shooting the BEST scores of your LIFE,
but you want to see if you can get a few extra points on your tournament average.

So,
ADD or REMOVE a half twist on the cables...or a FULL TWIST on the cables....
this will make a very FINE adjustment to your bow DL....not measureable...
but...

it will CHANGE the FEEL of your back tension (hinge) release...
tiny changes in the DL setting SHORTER...will make a hinge release fire slightly FASTER...slightly LESS EFFORT

tiny changes in the DL setting SHORTER...will make your sight pin/circle/dot float a little TIGHTER...float a little FASTER


So,
try TWISTS in the bowstring to make small changes to the bow DL setting,
all in the search for higher average scores...

then,
try TWISTS in the cables to make super duper fine changes to the bow DL setting,
all in the search to get to that NEXT LEVEL of shooting...add that one LAST X-RING...maybe.


----------



## Big Jerry

So, from an earlier post I read, the draw length is made with the cams, or did I figure wrong. If so, what about a single cam bow? I've got an older Buckmaster with a single cam at 30". When I bought the bow the length was good but since the I've started wearing glasses and I need the length shortened because my glasses frames are right in the way. There used to be a adjustable stop on the cam but I lost it (loosened itself off, I guess). It is a 70-80# pull. I have no problem drawing at 80#, but it seems awful loud. If it is backed off to 70# would I lose a lot of performance?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Big Jerry said:


> So, from an earlier post I read, the draw length is made with the cams, or did I figure wrong. If so, what about a single cam bow? I've got an older Buckmaster with a single cam at 30". When I bought the bow the length was good but since the I've started wearing glasses and I need the length shortened because my glasses frames are right in the way. There used to be a adjustable stop on the cam but I lost it (loosened itself off, I guess). It is a 70-80# pull. I have no problem drawing at 80#, but it seems awful loud. If it is backed off to 70# would I lose a lot of performance?


Draw Length can be set with fixed length cams.
Each draw length would require a different size cam.

Draw Length can be set with modules on a base cam.
Swap out modules and change the draw length.
Each draw length requires a different module.

Draw Length can be set with an adjustable module,
where you move a screw into one of several holes,
to adjust draw length.

Draw Length can be set with a "draw stop",
which means the cam has a slot,
and you put a pin somewhere in the slot.

You can tighten down the pin at either end of the slot in the cam,
or pick a position somewhere in the slot, to adjust the draw length.

The pin rotates with the cam,
and eventually stops the cam rotation early,
by having the pin contact the face of the bottom limb.

To set the draw stop so you way 1/4-inch shorter,
adjust the draw stop so the cam stops rotation,
about 1/4-inch (perimeter-wise) shorter than full rotation.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Big Jerry said:


> So, from an earlier post I read, the draw length is made with the cams, or did I figure wrong. If so, what about a single cam bow? I've got an older Buckmaster with a single cam at 30". When I bought the bow the length was good but since the I've started wearing glasses and I need the length shortened because my glasses frames are right in the way. There used to be a adjustable stop on the cam but I lost it (loosened itself off, I guess). It is a 70-80# pull. I have no problem drawing at 80#, but it seems awful loud. If it is backed off to 70# would I lose a lot of performance?


Drop down to 70 lbs,
and you should still have more than enough speed
and kinetic energy.

Install an after market string suppressor,
and that should knock down the "noise" and vibration.


----------



## ballison90

Thank you nuts&bolts for further elaborating on my explination, I have a much better understanding of it now!! To the top!


----------



## damo-eire

13fist said:


> yeah this!


PLEASE!!!!!!!
We WANT the nuts n bolts Book!!!!!


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

Does anyone have any string maintenance tips they could share? Best wax? Best way to apply wax? Best standard, non-roller, cable guide/slide? Best way to prevent string/cable wear? 
Preventative maintenance (lubing axles, bearings, preventing rust on exposed screws, etc) tips?
Any rules of thumb regarding long term bow storage (more than a month or two)?

All your opinion/experience, of course. The more the merrier!

Thanks!

Cheers! :cheers:

btw, the 'WE' in 'we want the nuts&bolts book' includes me!!


----------



## ballison90

I think I can help with the string maintenance. I personally have fallen in love with Black Lightning string wax from Pro Release Inc. It is graphite mixed with silicone so it has the best of both worlds, silicone keeps the water out, graphite keeps the strands nice and smooth. I apply it by rubbing a THIN layer of it onto the affected string or cable, then heat it with a heat gun and rub the wax in, this helps the wax penetrate the string, and the string is not sticky when finished if done properly.


----------



## BowTechCDR

ballison90 said:


> I think I can help with the string maintenance. I personally have fallen in love with Black Lightning string wax from Pro Release Inc. It is graphite mixed with silicone so it has the best of both worlds, silicone keeps the water out, graphite keeps the strands nice and smooth. I apply it by rubbing a THIN layer of it onto the affected string or cable, then heat it with a heat gun and rub the wax in, this helps the wax penetrate the string, and the string is not sticky when finished if done properly.


From what I think I know of silicone, it does not require heat to penetrate into the inner string threads. If that is the case, why use heat?

I know nothing about graphite except that it is available as a 'dry' lubricant for locks and such. How does graphite, the stuff pencil 'lead' is made of, help the string set?

Thanks.


----------



## ballison90

The graphite allows for two things (at least from what ive always been taught) better sliding across cable slides, and reduces friction between the individual strands of the string, allowing for each strand to carry the exact same amount of weight. As far as using heat, I hate that sticky feeling of a freshly waxed string on my nose when I anchor, so I heat it up and there is no sticky feeling, and I belive the heat softens the silicone wax, allowing for easier penetration. This method has always yelded very good string life for me, if someone has something better, by all means, share, that is what this thread is all about, combining the best of all of our knowledge!! To the top!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Riser Twist at full draw, Missing sideways, and Target Sight Extension*

Ok.

How many of us miss sideways,
(horizontal misses)
at 20 yards (indoor spot shooting)
or
longer range shots (3D shoots...field archery)?

If you are spot on at shorter distances,
and
you are CONSISTENTLY missing left at the longer ranges...

then,
this is a centershot problem,
and tweaking the arrow rest, in tiny amounts,
should get your arrow groups centered at short, medium and LONG RANGE.


However,
WHAT IF...when shooting spots at 20 yards,
you are DEAD CENTER sometimes...
and
you are missing LEFT sometimes...
you are missing RIGHT sometimes...

drives you nuts,
cuz you can chase your own tail,
trying to tune this with the "standard" bow settings.

ONE POSSIBILITY...

bow riser TWIST,
when we pull HARDER into the wall than normal.

You are shooting indoor league...
You are about to break your personal best score...
the nerves are biting at you...nipping at your heels....


1) you get to full draw,


2) you pull HARD into the wall,
trying to steady up the dot/circle/pin....

3) POW...surprise shot.

DANG, missed right.
Shot felt good.
Follow through on the bow arm/hand was good.
Release side follow through was text book.


HINT: Look at STEP 2

You thought you pulled HARD into the wall.
Actually, you were pulling your GUTS OUT, and you pulled REALLY REALLY HARD into the wall.


You pulled SO HARD into the wall,
you actually had the riser twist like a pretzel...a tiny, teeny amount.

When you PULL THIS HARD into the wall,
the riser actually rotates a tiny, itsy bitsy amount 
CLOCKWISE,
or off to the right,
for a RH shooter.

Soooooo,
since the sight picture has twisted off to the right
(you see the right side of the target)...

you rotate your body off to the left...

but,
you don't realize that you have twisted the riser, say 10 degrees clockwise
(this is an extreme example)...

but,
cuz the arrow rest support is forward of the sight mount,
the arrow is only rotated 2 degrees
(again, an extreme example)...

the main thing,
is when we pull HARD, WAY TOO HARD into the wall,
the arrow and the riser are no longer parallel.


So,
we end up missing left,
when we pull too hard into the wall.


So,
what is the fix?

The fix is to extend the sight extension arm,
farther away from our face,
and keep experimenting
to find the "perfect" extension arm amount...

so that,
when we do end up TWISTING the riser,
cuz we pull TOO HARD into the wall...

the sight is twisted to the right,
the exact amount that we need
to change the windage,
to get back onto target.


So,
experiment with more and more sight extension,
until we can pull SUPER HARD into the wall,
and hit the bullseye...

and

when we pull NORMALLY into the wall,
we STILL HIT THE BULLSEYE.

If you pull REALLY HARD into the wall,
you might need a 12-inch long extension arm.

hehehehe


You will find that as you extend
the sight farther and farther,
when you pull HARD into the wall,
the left-right misses get smaller and smaller,
until...


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## damo-eire

nuts&bolts
Any chance of puttin all your notes together as a pdf file for us mere mortals to use as our tuning bible???

We all know this threas has been usefull but lets get a vote on who wants to print a copy of these valuable pointers


----------



## cordini

Count me in for the PDF file.......The info that *nuts&bolts* is sharing here is priceless, especially for us "hope to be" hometuners. Since my good buddy left the local shop to pursue other employment, I need to learn how to do this on my own. I know I could call him (I have) and get help, but he works 12's & has a family, so this thread and all the "tips" that have been shared are giving me the confidence that I can figure out how to do this myself. Keep it up *nuts&bolts*, but as others have pointed out, you should do a Tuning book and/or a Tuning Video.....The book for soaking it all up in manageable units....The DVD for "seeing" it done, which is always very helpful. Thanks again for everything you have shared so far!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Any more maintenance tips out there??


----------



## montigre

Is another possibility for these unexpected left misses a result of not pulling hard enough into the wall (not creeping) causing the bow arm to apply more pressure during final set up thus driving the arrow to the left when loosed? Opinions please.... TKS


----------



## bo-w

Well now that we have our bow figured out , hows about we get our selves figured out ay ! Hehehe form is a whole new can o' worms I suppose eh n&b


----------



## R3APeR

This should be, without a doubt...a STICKY POST!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Explosive Follow Through Motion - Bow Hand and Riser Jumps FOWARD Straight Line*



montigre said:


> Is another possibility for these unexpected left misses a result of not pulling hard enough into the wall (not creeping) causing the bow arm to apply more pressure during final set up thus driving the arrow to the left when loosed? Opinions please.... TKS


Assuming we are talking a right hand shooter.

Lots and lots of possible causes for a "left" miss.

1) Let's assume we have the bow centershot adjusted close to perfect

2) Let's assume we have the "proper" arrow spine

3) Let's assume that top cam lean has been adjusted with twists to the yoke cable legs (twin cam or hybrid cam or solo cam bow with a buss cable)

4) Let's assume that the shooter has fairly good posture (stands up straight...no leaning back)

5) Let's assume that the shooter has the bow adjusted to close to perfect bow DRAW LENGTH setting

6) Let's assume that the shooter is using a bow sling or a finger sling

7) Let's assume we are talking a bow with a front stabilizer (could be 12"...could be longer)


If you assume ALL of the items 1 through 7 are true and correct...

then,
a LEFT miss (for a RH shooter)...

could be...

a) mis-alignment of the release arm side forearm bones
(elbow was rotated too far back behind shooter's head)

even when the draw length on the bow is correct...
(nock lands on the "correct" spot on the side of your face)

the elbow on the release side,

***___can pivot forward of your body...out of alignment with the arrow
***___can pivot directly BEHIND the arrow...
***___can pivot BEHIND your body...out of alignment with the arrow

When the elbow (release side) pivots BEHIND your body,
for a RH shooter,
then the arrow will react with a left miss.


b) the bow hand thumb SHOULD be pointed in the direction that you want the arrow to fly...generally, the bow hand thumb should be pointed FORWARDS

many times, I will see a shooter FORGET to position the bow hand thumb,
and "under-rotate", so that the bow hand thumb is pointed off to the right of the target...

(probably a shooter who has been hitting his arm and is trying to compensate)

sooooo,
a LEFT miss,
can be due to incorrect/poor bow hand thumb position
(bow hand thumb tip is pointed to the right of the arrow flight path


c) a LEFT miss,
can also be caused by a very TENSE bow hand thumb muscle...

when the bow hand thumb muscle is VERY tense,
the curvature of the bow hand thumb muscle,
will be inconsistent shot to shot...

and
the CURVATURE of the bow hand thumb muscle...tense bow hand 
(when your fingers are stretched forward like a PITCHFORK)
will cause a RH bow to usually react by swinging left,
at the instant the arrow takes off.


d) FINALLY,
we have TWO STYLES of maintaining FULL DRAW.


STYLE 1 - DEAD BOW ARM...think 2x4...bow arm is PASSIVE...bow hand is fully RELAXED

STYLE 2 - PUSH-PULL...BOW ARM is PUSHING...RELEASE ARM IS PULLING
(trying to RIP THE BOW APART into TWO PIECES...shoot the bow like you are MAD at IT)


The PUSH-PULL technique is very difficult to master,
and the PUSH SIDE HALF of your body (bow arm side)
must be perfectly balanced
with the PULL SIDE HALF of your body (release arm side).

Posture must be DEAD VERTICAL...
(Release side forearm bones must be DEAD STRAIGHT behind the arrow)

*Release side forearm follow through should be short...precise...hard...fast
the follow through motion of the release side elbow should be like a RIFLE BOLT...*

Bow Arm follow through motion should be Natural, 
AND
DIRECTED at the target/arrow flight path...

IF you are shooting a LONG ATA target style bow,
with long straight limbs...

then,
the bow riser will JUMP FORWARD out of your RELAXED bow hand,
and the bow riser will JUMP into the finger sling
or
the bow riser will JUMP forward, until the bow sling hits your wrist...

IF you have mastered the PUSH and PULL forces EQUALLY...

IF you have mastered the "power triangle" body posture/alignment

IF you have mastered the "relaxed" bow hand wrist, forward flip movement..

(HINT...look for more recent youtube video clips of Dave Cousins)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Explosive Follow Through Motion - Bow Hand/Bow Arm ROTATES LEFT for RH shooter*

Ths is another variation of the PUSH-PULL technique.

Target Shooter is at full draw.
Bow arm is PUSHING like crazy.
Release arm is PULLING like crazy.

Shooter has been taught to PULL the BOW APART into TWO PIECES...RIP IT...
SHOOT your bow like you are MAD at it, and you want to TEAR it into TWO.

This is the AGGRESSIVE and ACTIVE bow arm.
*Bow arm elbow is also probably within 99% of full extension rotation.
Bow arm is near 99% of full extension...very little room to extend further.*

NOTE: Discussing how "straight" a bow arm is not really useful,
cuz all of us have different amounts of rotation/flexion capability.

Hyper-extended elbows will rotate beyond 180 degrees (double-jointed folks)...
so,
I will discuss PERCENT of ELBOW ROTATION capacity.


so,
back to the AGGRESSIVE, push-pull shooter,
who is at 99% of bow arm extension
who is at 99% of bow arm elbow rotation capacity.

When this shooter fires his/her bow...

the release side elbow flies backwards,
AND
flies in a WIDE CIRCLE 
and
the release side elbow ends up way way back BEHIND the body.

The bow hand, AT FIRST, extends forward, and uses up the remaining 1% of extension
RAPIDLY,
and
then the bow hand starts SWINGING in a WIDE CIRCLE
BEHIND his/her body.


If the PUSH-PULL balance is not EXACTLY balanced...

you will get LEFT misses..

you will get RIGHT misses...

so,
the EXPLOSIVE,
WILDLY swinging follow through reactions
for the bow hand
for the release side elbow...

is very difficult to master.


So,
I am a much bigger fan of
teaching the body posture
where the bow reaction follow through,
is straight towards the target, along the arrow flight path...

***___bow arm is passive

***___release side forearm bones are lined up DIRECTLY behind the arrow

***___bow hand thumb muscles are SUPER RELAXED

***___bow hand thumb is pointed directly at the target/arrow flight path


*(HINT: if you are working with a target shooter, with the long front stabilizer...

just look at the reaction of the tip of the long front stabilzer,
and see if the tip of the stabilizer...moves foward...or swings left for a RH shooter..*

This will tell you (the coach)
if the shooter was "...in alignment..." or not.


If you are training by yourself,
then...work with a video camera.


----------



## bo-w

honest question for you n&b is there a happy medium between the two styles of release action you listed above ? or is having a bit of both styles just tell you the shooter is not consistant therefore shows a mix of the two reactions on release? thanks 

Bo


----------



## MissAlaLogBuyer

Bump for an awesome thread


----------



## bo-w

almost time for the evening crowd?


----------



## BowTechCDR

To the top!!!!!

Because I want to get a 'guide' together, posts up to this point will be included in the first go-round and future posts will be included in revisions. If you emailed me requesting a first really rough draft, I will include you on the list for the first 'guide'. If you don't want the guide, please PM me letting me know not to send it to you.

Keep the tips and questions coming. And THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## hitman846

damo-eire said:


> PLEASE!!!!!!!
> We WANT the nuts n bolts Book!!!!!


No doubt!!


----------



## bo-w

thanks to the mods for the stickey


----------



## BowTechCDR

Amen!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

bo-w said:


> honest question for you n&b is there a happy medium between the two styles of release action you listed above ? or is having a bit of both styles just tell you the shooter is not consistant therefore shows a mix of the two reactions on release? thanks
> 
> Bo


Hello Bo:

Push-Pull is a very difficult style to master.

Try and see if you like it.


"Passive bow arm"...with a super relaxed bow hand (thumb muscle as cushy as a down pillow)...just have the bow arm bones (forearm and upper arm bones) in a line
bow arm elbow at say 95% of rotation capacity....

and then pull in the wall,
keep the release side elbow in DIRECT LINE behind the arrow
(HINT: work with a friend and have the friend confirm your release arm alignment is truly directly behind the arrow)

focus on the bullseye
(no negative thoughts...no stray thoughts...just empty your mind...see ONLY the bullseye)
go into automatic mode, and execute your shot routine and let the shot happen.

Even with a "passive" bow arm,
there is a tiny amount of muscle involvement.

You are relying on the bones in the forearm, in the upper arm,
to simply RESIST the bow riser...just trying to keep the bow riser from flying back into your face.


Try the "PULL ONLY" style,
with the help of a friend,
and see how this works for you.


If you see left or right misses,
experiment with bow DL settings.


----------



## ballison90

How about some advice on what to check if a bow is damaged in some way, say dryfired, dropped from treestand, de-railed, etc, any damage you can think of.


----------



## ballison90

limb splinters also seem to be a popular topic on here, what is proper care for this?


----------



## bo-w

Thanks n&b I'll work on it


----------



## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> How about some advice on what to check if a bow is damaged in some way, say dryfired, dropped from treestand, de-railed, etc, any damage you can think of.


Dry Fire is when a bow has been fired with no arrow loaded.

Therefore,
all the kinetic energy,
has not been transferred to an arrow,
so....

that means all of that kinetic energy has to be absorbed by the bow.


Best case,
nothing happens to the bow,
but there are many things to check.

a) at a minimum, the bowstring will pop some strands...if enough strands rupture, then the bowstring will completely break through

b) worst thing to happen to a bowstring is BROKEN strands UNDER the center serving...you cannot see this, but the peep will rotate like mad, due to uneven strand tension in the string bundle

c) need to completely dis-assemble the bow, and need to check that the cam axles (top and bottom) are still straight...check the axle against a reference quality straight edge...shine a bright light and look for a gap

d) confirm that both axles have all the e-clips (should be a total of 4)

e) with the bow dis-assembled, confirm that the cams, the idler wheel are all still FLAT...bent cam is another common occurrence, from a dry fire

f) go over all the servings...center...end servings

g) take the limbs OUT of the LIMB POCKETS and look for a fracture line along the edge of the limbs (part hidden by the limb pocket) and look at the ends, under the limb bolts

h) check for fracture lines on all the visible, exposed portions of the limbs (portions of the limb not hidden by the limb pocket)

i) look for fine fracture lines where the axles come through the limb tips (this area is a particular weak spot for dry fires)

j) look for fine fracture lines throughout the riser...especially at the grip area...also look just under the limb pocket areas (requires removing the limb pocket off the riser)


DROPPED from a treestand damage

***___ look for scratches in the film finish (camo dipped risers)

***___ check for gouges in the rim of the cams...use a cotton Q-Tip and see if the cotton fibers catch on anything along the perimeter of the cam


----------



## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> limb splinters also seem to be a popular topic on here, what is proper care for this?


If you believe you have a "splintered" limb...

contact the factory/manufacturer to discuss your options.

You probably have to deliver the bow to a local, dealer/pro shop,
and the pro shop will then ship the bow to the factory for inspection/repair/replacement.

Do not shoot the bow.

I would turn the limb bolts down to the minimum,
as discussed in your owners manual.


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts,

You alluded to the bow hand a few times in this thread. You were talking about the thumb pointing in the direction you want the arrow to go when shot. 
I have heard to keep the grip out of the 'life line' of your hand and to keep it in 'meat' between your life line and your thumb's base knuckle.

Based on what I have read in your posts, I am getting the idea that having the bow in the meat of the hand may make it more succeptable to minute (or major) muscle movement in the hand/thumb during the shot.

It seems to me that in order for ME to get my thumb pointing at the target more directly, the grip will be closer to, if not in, the life line of my bow hand (I am right handed if it makes a difference). Is this a bad thing?

Any specific no-no's on bow hand placement? Any specific yes-yes's?

Any help or advice you can offer would be very much appreciated. Thanks again for all the outstanding information!


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> nuts&bolts,
> 
> You alluded to the bow hand a few times in this thread. You were talking about the thumb pointing in the direction you want the arrow to go when shot.
> I have heard to keep the grip out of the 'life line' of your hand and to keep it in 'meat' between your life line and your thumb's base knuckle.
> 
> Based on what I have read in your posts, I am getting the idea that having the bow in the meat of the hand may make it more succeptable to minute (or major) muscle movement in the hand/thumb during the shot.
> 
> It seems to me that in order for ME to get my thumb pointing at the target more directly, the grip will be closer to, if not in, the life line of my bow hand (I am right handed if it makes a difference). Is this a bad thing?
> 
> Any specific no-no's on bow hand placement? Any specific yes-yes's?
> 
> Any help or advice you can offer would be very much appreciated. Thanks again for all the outstanding information!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics

That is a link to an animated gif pattern,
for the three ways a plane can move through the air.

This helps,
for understanding...

***---ROLL

***---PITCH

***---YAW


ROLL is when a plane uses its flaps on the wing tips
and the left wing will tip up
or
the left wing will tip down.


PITCH is when the nose of the plane goes straight up
or
when the nose of the plane goes straight down


YAW is when the plane is sitting on the ground at the airport,
and the plane makes a FLAT left turn (wings stay level)
or
when the plane makes a FLAT right turn (wings stay level)



So,
make a fist with your bow hand,
and place your bow hand on a table.

Your bow hand is the airplane.
The table is the ground at the airport.

*Now, 
grab a pencil or pen,
and make a fist around the pen.*

Keep the pen pointed straight up.

POINT your thumb due north (straight ahead).
Keep your thumb level, parallel to the table.


Now,
POINT your thumb north east (thumb is pointed off to the right of the target),
while the pen is still pointed straight up.


These are adjustments to YAW or 
adjustments to your thumb pointing direction,
while keeping the pen in your fist, pointed straight up.


With the pen pointed straight up, with your fist wrapped around the pen,
I would like to see that your thumb is pointed forward,
in the same direction you want the arrow.


Now,
with your thumb still pointed FORWARDS (due north, let's say)...

now,
I would like you to TILT the pen in your fist,
sideways,
until you can get a 45 degree TILT on your knuckles,
AND
your thumb still pointed forwards (due north).

When you tilt the pen in your fist, SIDEWAYS....
we are making a ROLL change in the airplane.





















Now,
I cheated and rotated the picture,
but the two pictures
show the thumb pointed "straight ahead"...

and,
by rotating the picture,
I made a ROLL change,
to increase the angle on the knuckles.

When you make a ROLL change,
to increase or decrease the angle of the knuckles...

you change where the lifeline of your palm,
contacts the LEFT EDGE of the grip.


So,
with the thumb pointed forwards (same direction as the arrow flight path)...

you can rotate or ROLL the hand clockwise
and the lifeline will rotate AWAY from the left edge of the riser/grip...

or

you can rotate or ROLL the hand counter-clockwise
and the lifeline will rotate TOWARDS the left edge of the riser/grip.


----------



## nuts&bolts

More photos,
about bow hand position.
























































Nice video clip by Larry Wise.

http://www.bowtube.com/media/6/Get_A_Grip/


Experiment with different degrees of ROLL rotation angle.

Whatever angle works BEST for you,
keep the thenar emminence (meaty part of the thumb muscle) as relaxed, and cushy as you can.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thank you!


----------



## OBE

bump for a great research project


----------



## BowTechCDR

If anyone wants the first draft of the 'guide' it is done. Not done well, but done. If'n you want a copy, just PM me your email addy and I will send it to you.

I see some content that needs to be moved around and I still have content to add. This is the first draft.

I will not be around my computer until late on Sunday. I will send a copy of the guide to anyone requesting a copy Sunday evening.

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics


People actually understand all that math? Wow......:mg:


----------



## BowTechCDR

I sent a bunch of copies out yesterday. If I missed you and you still want a copy, pm me your email addy.
Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## bo-w

BowTechCDR said:


> I sent a bunch of copies out yesterday. If I missed you and you still want a copy, pm me your email addy.
> Cheers! :cheers:


thanks for all youre work getting good info out to folks on here . i got mine and really appreciate the hard work :thumbs_up:set1_applaud:


----------



## Bakes5

Great thread. Can someone talk about arrow selection for different applications (specifically hunting, 3d, field, spots, etc...). When would I want a skinny vs a fat arrow? How low can you go in regards to arrow weight before you start risking damage to the bow?

Bakes


----------



## nuts&bolts

Bakes5 said:


> Great thread. Can someone talk about arrow selection for different applications (specifically hunting, 3d, field, spots, etc...). When would I want a skinny vs a fat arrow? How low can you go in regards to arrow weight before you start risking damage to the bow?
> 
> Bakes


Hello Bakes:

Everybody has their favorite arrow,
for the type of shooting that they do.


Now,
about using low weight arrows,
to get the maximum speed.

General rule of thumb is
do NOT go any lower than 5 grains of total arrow weight,
per pound of bow draw weight.

So,
if you have a 60 lb draw weight bow,
then the PROPERLY SPINED, total arrow weight 
should be at least 300 grains.

To design a PROPERLY SPINED arrow,
for a 60 lb draw weight bow,
that is LONG enough to fit past your arrow rest,
and
only weight 300 grains total arrow weight,
is possible, but very difficult to do.


So,
for 3D...

some folks are using fatter arrows, in order to "cut lines"...
some folks are use super short, super skinny arrows, to get that ultra-lightweight arrow,
the 300 grain total arrow weight arrow, for a 60 lb draw weight bow.


Field archery,
you need a versatile arrow...
something that shoots well for you at 10 yards,
and
something that shoots well for you at 80 yards.


Some folks are fans of the "properly spined" skinny carbon arrows,
and
other folks like the fat carbon "line cutter" style arrows, which also happen to be crazy stiff.

In terms of the "properly spined" skinny arrows,
you have a choice of an all carbon arrow,
or
you can go to the carbon/aluminum core arrows, like the Easton ACC or Easton ACE or even the Easton X10/Protour arrows.

The fat carbon "line cutter" arrows,
for example, would be the GoldTip Series 22 or the GoldTip X-Cutter arrows.

These fat carbon arrows are NOT meant to be shot at "proper spine".
These arrows are designed to be shot at normal draw weights or even low draw weights.
Typically, you cut the carbon tube length so that you have about 1/2-inch past the arrow rest,
and use a 90 grain or 100 grain glue in target point.

These GoldTip Series 22 arrows or the even stiffer GoldTip X-Cutter arrows will be off the charts stiff.

***___cam timing must be PERFECT
***___arrow rest centershot must also be dialed in PERFECT
***___your shooting technique must be very very consistent.

If you can do these three things,
then the crazy stiff carbon target arrows will shoot very well,
all the way out to 80 yards.

Maybe the properly spined skinny carbon arrows will shoot better for you on a field archery course.
Maybe the crazy stiff, fat carbon line cutter style arrows will gain you a few extra points.

Only one way to find out, which means you gotta take a chance,
and purchase both styles of arrows, and see what works best for you.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Bakes5 said:


> Great thread. Can someone talk about arrow selection for different applications (specifically hunting, 3d, field, spots, etc...). When would I want a skinny vs a fat arrow? How low can you go in regards to arrow weight before you start risking damage to the bow?
> 
> Bakes


INDOOR ARROWS

You have two choices...

crazy fat aluminum arrows for the Vegas shoot...all the way up to the Easton 2712s

or

crazy fat carbon arrows for the Vegas shoot...an example would be the GoldTip XXX carbon arrows.

Now,
if you are going to shoot a FITA indoor shoot, you are limited to a maximum diameter of 23/64ths, so an aluminum 2315 would be the max aluminum arrow size.

So,
let's assume we are talking Vegas style indoor shooting.


Some folks shoot their crazy large aluminum arrows full length (Easton 2712 at 34.5-inches), with lower point weights at the front end.

Some folks shoot their crazy large aluminum arrows "shorter" and use crazy heavy point weights, e.g. 300 grain Pro Points or even heavier.

The best way to figure out what works for you,
is to experiment with say 2 dozen arrows,
and a variety of point weights.

You can try say 6 arrows full length,
and try all kinds of point weights.
(yup, this means buying multiple dozens of points).

You can take another 3 arrows,
and start whacking off 1-inch at a time,
and try say the 300 grain points.

Some folks swear by the larger feathers.
Some folks swear by Quick Spins.
Some folks swear by their favorite vanes.

Again,
you have to experiment and see what works BEST for you.


Now,
for indoor spots...

some folks swear by the properly spined, "skinny" carbon arrows.

People try all kinds of things, chasing the x-ring count.

You can improve your x-ring average, with small changes in stabilization
(I'm working on some experiments as we speak...).

You can improve your x-ring average, possibly with some "shoot thru" conversions to your buss cable.

Maybe a custom grip will help reduce your left-right misses.

For some folks,
the "properly spined" skinny carbon arrows, just work better for them.

I must say,
that the "skinny" properly spined carbon arrows,
seem to be MORE forgiving of shot execution mistakes.

The super fat, crazy stiff carbon arrows,
and definitely NOT forgiving of shot execution mistakes.


----------



## Madlaz

Great thread special thanks to nut and bolts for some of the best make that the most informative thread i have ever read on this forum his writing is easy to understand EVEN A CAVE MAN COULD BE A PRO TUNER READING THESE FINE THREAD thanks nuts and bolts by the way what is your name or is it a secret . Laz


----------



## yotebuster

This thread is unreal!!!! Thanks to all you guys especially bowtech and n&b. I can't stop reading it!!!:thumbs_up


----------



## Madlaz

Nuts and Bolts can we see some information on the use and setting up stabilisers such as wich is best long medium or short aluminum vs.carbon side rods vs v bars installing on short bows and longer axle bows i notioed you had a scepter4 I also shoot a Scepter 4


----------



## QCBowman

This thread has got to contain some of the best information on archery I've ever come across. A big thank you to all that have posted!


----------



## BowTechCDR

QCBowman said:


> This thread has got to contain some of the best information on archery I've ever come across. A big thank you to all that have posted!


I agree and my thanks as well.

I just got back to my computer and sent a bunch of emails with the guide attached. If I missed you I am sorry; resend your email addy and I will catch up. Oh, yea, if I hit you twice, sorry about that too. Again, trying to catch up! >>>>>>>>>:car:

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone!

I really want to keep this thread alive as I have learned soooooooooo much since the first reply came in. If you read it, give it a bump would ya? I want everyone to see the outstanding information contained in it!!!!!

Cheers!!!!! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## ballison90

BUMP!! I dont know what else to ask!!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

ballison90 said:


> BUMP!! I dont know what else to ask!!!


I hear ya. 

You know, I don't think Tiller Tuning was ever really addressed. Anyone got anything on why tiller tuning is important? If it is here and I missed it, sorry (point that out if it is the case).

Cheers!


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts,

In post #56, picture #8, the serving thread appears to be going to the right for a few wraps of the bowstring and then back over those wraps to the left where the center serving application begins in earnest . I have read and re-read post #59 looking for something that references why the serving appears to be going to the right before going left and can't find anything. It seems like that is done to "lock" the initial right side serving 'knot' in place but I don't know.

If you have a minute, could you please let me know?

Thanks!

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> nuts&bolts,
> 
> In post #56, picture #8, the serving thread appears to be going to the right for a few wraps of the bowstring and then back over those wraps to the left where the center serving application begins in earnest . I have read and re-read post #59 looking for something that references why the serving appears to be going to the right before going left and can't find anything. It seems like that is done to "lock" the initial right side serving 'knot' in place but I don't know.
> 
> If you have a minute, could you please let me know?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tim


Hello Tim:

Yes,
that is something I like to do.

I will wrap say 2 times going in one direction,
and then cross over, go the other direction and complete the entire serving.

In those photos,
I will go say 2 wraps to the right,
and then,
cross over and keep wrapping and wrapping to the left,
to complete the serving.


----------



## OBE

I have been involved in other threads that provided a lot of information to me and might be useful for you.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1332484
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1338590
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1279062
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1339023
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1279920


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> I hear ya.
> 
> You know, I don't think Tiller Tuning was ever really addressed. Anyone got anything on why tiller tuning is important? If it is here and I missed it, sorry (point that out if it is the case).
> 
> Cheers!


Tiller tuning,
is another method to try to get to "level nock travel".

Tiller is the measure of "bending" of the limb,
while the bow is at rest.


When we get our bows...

we ASSUME that IF we max out the limb bolts,
then the top limb and the bottom limb are a PERFECT MATCH,
for stiffness.

We talk about arrow spine (arrow stiffness rating).
We talk about arrow spine consistency (we ASSUME that all of our arrows are exactly the same stiffness).

Well,
we also ASSUME that the top limb and the bottom limb are EXACTLY the same stiffness.

Well,
proof is in the pudding.

Just because we max out BOTH limb bolts,
this does NOT necessarily mean,
that both limbs will provide EXACTLY the same amount of return energy, when we fire the arrow.


IF the top limb is pulling HARDER...even by a little bit...
and
IF the bottom limb is pulled LESS HARD...even by a little bit...

then,
the TOP limb is working harder,
and this means that the arrow nock will start to CLIMB,
immediately after the release fires.

So,
the arrow is moving forwards,
AND
the arrow is travelling horizontally (assuming the arrow started dead horizontal at full draw)...mostly
BUT
the arrow nock (back end) is also slowly climbing,
cuz the TOP LIMB TIP is moving up and forwards...FASTER than
the BOTTOM LIMB TIP is moving down and forwards.

(NOTE: this is an example that does not take into account string payout and takeup rates, based on cam rotation starting positions, etc...a very simple example only, but you folks get the idea about tiller tuning)

So,
with the bowstring moving the arrow nock FORWARDS, but also the arrow nock is CLIMBING...slightly..
this makes MORE WORK for the vanes to try and correct the steering.

End result,
we get a tall arrow group...

some arrows hit higher,
some arrow hit lower.


If you look at the end of a long front stabilizer...
look for the reaction of the tip of the long front stabilizer..

look for the follow through, immediately before and after the shot.


When the shooter just pulls into full draw,
you will see the stabilizer tip bob DOWN
and the shooter will struggle to settle down the end of the stabilizer.

(TOP LIMB is heavier..too heavy, so the shooter is struggling to hold steady in the vertical direction).


HINT:
You can also diagnose a HEAVY (too heavy) TOP LIMB by analyzing the shape of the d-loop.
If you see that the POINT of the d-loop is angled UPWARDS....then, the TOP limb is acting too heavy.


So,
the fix is to take say 1/4 turn OFF the TOP LIMB BOLT
AND
at the same time,
ADD 1/4 turn to the BOTTOM LIMB BOLT.

Eventually,
the end of your front stabilizer no longer FIGHTS with you,
and you draw smoothly back to full draw,
and the dot/pin/circle on your sight
just stays on target.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Tiller Tuning.....

the nitty gritty details.


So,
you are now experimenting with your LIMB BOLTs,
in opposite directions.

A little goes a long way.

Start with 1/4-turn adjustments.
If you take off 1/4-turn on the TOP limb bolt,
then,
at the same time,
you ADD 1/4-turn to the BOTTOM limb bolt.


One more thing.

To be TRUE tiller tuning,
you have to make sure that your peep sight height is still the same.

So,
back to the draw board.

Use the draw board to hold the bow at full draw,
(AFTER you make the limb bolt adjustments)
and
you measure the vertical gap,
between peep sight centerline
and
between the arrow shaft centerline.

Gotta MOVE the peep sight
up or down the bowstring,
to get back to the original peep sight height
above the arrow shaft.

You need to do this,
to make sure your anchor is exactly the same as before.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*So, why tiller tune?*

When you tiller tune,
you will have your bow holding much more steady,
in the vertical direction.

The end of your front stabilizer will no longer fight you.


One more thing.
When you find the tiller that works best for you..
the correct TOP LIMB BOLT position
and
the correct BOTTOM LIMB BOLT position
(remember, to adjust in opposition directions by 1/4 turn, and then by 1/8th turn)...

ultimately,
you get better groups.

When you do find a TOP and BOTTOM limb bolt combo that works best for YOU...

check your cam timing,
cuz you will probably need tiny adjustments.


Another note:

I would only tiller tune,
AFTER running experiments with draw length,
and fine tuning the draw length.


----------



## R3APeR

Priceless information!!!!!!! Sincerely : "THANK YOU" for all of this knowledge.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Holding steady, stabilizers, shooting rig total weight, holding weight, letoff*



Madlaz said:


> Nuts and Bolts can we see some information on the use and setting up stabilisers such as wich is best long medium or short aluminum vs.carbon side rods vs v bars installing on short bows and longer axle bows i notioed you had a scepter4 I also shoot a Scepter 4


We all want the best possible accuracy.

If we can hold just a bit more steady,
then our accuracy should go up.

Yes, but that's only part of the answer.

The size of your arrow groups,
depends on how TIGHT your bow stays aimed at your target.

If the bow is tuned well,
cams are timed,
arrow rest centershot is near perfect,
arrows are near the perfect stiffness,

the arrow should go to the center of the target you are aiming at.


So,
let's assume that the arrows are the correct stiffness,
let's assume that the cams are timed perfectly...

why do we still miss?

a) a sideways gust of wind, right when you release the shot

and/or

b) shooter is almost, but not quite lined up correctly (release side arm/elbow)

and/or

c) bow hand is almost, but not quite lined up correctly 
(too little or too much hand in the grip area)...

all of these things, and a few other possibilities...

results in a bow follow through reaction
that is NOT aimed directly at the target...

bow wants to twist away from the best possible arrow path...

bow might want to twist to the left, away from the best arrow path
bow might want to twist to the right,
bottom of bow might want to kick up (e.g., too much heel on the bow hand)
top of bow might want to kick down (e.g., too much pressure at web of bow hand)

so,
a stabilizer system should make the bow resist making twisting motions
(left-right twisting motions or up-down twisting motions).


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Stabilizer systems help resist twisting motions*

A stabilizer system helps to resist twisting motions,
horizontal twisting motions,
vertical twisting motions.

A long stick with a light weight on the end of the long stick,
is very resistant to making a quick movement.

When you fire an arrow,
IF the bow is going to make any kind of twisting away movement,
it will be a quick, very short, movement,
which will try to throw your arrow off the best possible flight path.


So,
seems like a simple answer.

Just use a really really long stick
and put a light weight on the end.

Well,
if the really really long stick is kinda flexible...

then,
the really really long stick has to STOP BENDING,
before you gain any "stabilizing" effect.

So,
let's go over what the various pieces of a stabilizer
are BEST at doing.

Front stabilizers are VERY GOOD at resisting left and right twists,
where the front stabilizer stays horizontal.










Imagine that the plane is your bow.

So,
the front stabilizer is very good,
at resisting a "flat" left turn or a "flat" right turn.

So,
if your bow stays vertical,
and the bow tries to "torque" left or "torque" right...

then,
the front stabilizer is very good at resisting this kinda of twist.



So,
what about these target style rear facing SIDE RODS.

Side RODS are shorter stabilizers, say about 12-inches,
and these are used with offset knuckle joints
or
are used with v-bars.

So,
anyways...
these SIDE RODS are called SIDE RODS,
cuz these short stabilizers stick out to the....(yup, you guessed it)...SIDE.

Some folks use just one side rod.
Some folks use two side rods.


So,
a SIDE ROD stabilizer,
fights against a SIDE...WAYS tilt motion.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Short, medium, long, super long stabilizers*

So,
should we all use a short
or
a medium
or
a long
or
a super long stabilizer?

Well,
to get the same amount of stabilizer power
(resistance to a twisting motion)...

the shorter your stabilizer,
the MORE weight you need to use on the end.

If you want a LOT of stabilizer power,
then you need a LOT of weight,
on the end of a 12-inch stick.

If you want a LOT of stabilizer power,
then you need only a LITTLE bit of weight,
at the end of a 30-inch stick.


Who cares about a little bit of weight?

Well,
we ALL get fatigue.

It's just a matter of time.

More fatigue,
less energy,
less accuracy.

So,
back to weight.

A HEAVY shooting rig, will shoot super steady,
but will be hard to lift up
and hold steady for very long.

Some shooting systems (bow, stabilizers, sight, riser weights, stabilizer weights)
can weigh as much as 10 lbs or more.

Use the longest stabilizers you can.
Use the least amount of weight on the ends, that helps you steady out your form errors.
ADD weight in small amounts close to the riser, to increase riser stability.

Experiment, experiment, experiment.

Find the FOC of your stabilizer system,
that helps YOU get your best groups.


You know what they say...
expert tennis players really don't care what racket they use,
they can play well with darn near anything.

Expert golfers really don't care what brand of club they use,
they can play well with darn near anything.

Sooooo,
near expert archers CAN shoot well, with darn near anything,
stabilizer-wise.

We are lucky to have soooo many choices for front
and side stabilizer systems.

Color choices are amazing.
Carbon, super stiff carbon, skinny carbon, medium size carbon, fat carbon...

slotted aluminum, aluminum/carbon cores...

long ones, short ones, medium size ones...

inexpensive, and not-so inexpensive stabilizers.

All stabilizers are still just a stick with a weight on the end.


----------



## nuts&bolts

So,
if you are shooting a heavy rig...say 10+ lbs...
then,
make sure that your holding weight is say in the 20 lb range
(easier to do with 65 percent letoff cams).

Now,
if your cam system has a hard draw stop peg (peg against the limb face),
then the letoff is not as important, cuz you can pull into the wall as much as you like.
Just set your release to fire heavy.

So,
find the FOC that works BEST for you...the good old fashioned, experimental way...

add weight close to the riser, to get the max shooting system total weight, that you can comfortably handle

set the holding weight as high as you can shoot comfortably
and/or set your release to fire heavy..

and your shooting system will be as stable as can be.


----------



## montigre

nuts&bolts said:


> Assuming we are talking a right hand shooter.
> 
> Lots and lots of possible causes for a "left" miss.
> 
> 1) Let's assume we have the bow centershot adjusted close to perfect
> 
> 2) Let's assume we have the "proper" arrow spine
> 
> 3) Let's assume that top cam lean has been adjusted with twists to the yoke cable legs (twin cam or hybrid cam or solo cam bow with a buss cable)
> 
> 4) Let's assume that the shooter has fairly good posture (stands up straight...no leaning back)
> 
> 5) Let's assume that the shooter has the bow adjusted to close to perfect bow DRAW LENGTH setting
> 
> 6) Let's assume that the shooter is using a bow sling or a finger sling
> 
> 7) Let's assume we are talking a bow with a front stabilizer (could be 12"...could be longer)
> 
> 
> If you assume ALL of the items 1 through 7 are true and correct...
> 
> then,
> a LEFT miss (for a RH shooter)...
> 
> could be...
> 
> a) mis-alignment of the release arm side forearm bones
> (elbow was rotated too far back behind shooter's head)
> 
> even when the draw length on the bow is correct...
> (nock lands on the "correct" spot on the side of your face)
> 
> the elbow on the release side,
> 
> ***___can pivot forward of your body...out of alignment with the arrow
> ***___can pivot directly BEHIND the arrow...
> ***___can pivot BEHIND your body...out of alignment with the arrow
> 
> When the elbow (release side) pivots BEHIND your body,
> for a RH shooter,
> then the arrow will react with a left miss.
> 
> 
> b) the bow hand thumb SHOULD be pointed in the direction that you want the arrow to fly...generally, the bow hand thumb should be pointed FORWARDS
> 
> many times, I will see a shooter FORGET to position the bow hand thumb,
> and "under-rotate", so that the bow hand thumb is pointed off to the right of the target...
> 
> (probably a shooter who has been hitting his arm and is trying to compensate)
> 
> sooooo,
> a LEFT miss,
> can be due to incorrect/poor bow hand thumb position
> (bow hand thumb tip is pointed to the right of the arrow flight path
> 
> 
> c) a LEFT miss,
> can also be caused by a very TENSE bow hand thumb muscle...
> 
> when the bow hand thumb muscle is VERY tense,
> the curvature of the bow hand thumb muscle,
> will be inconsistent shot to shot...
> 
> and
> the CURVATURE of the bow hand thumb muscle...tense bow hand
> (when your fingers are stretched forward like a PITCHFORK)
> will cause a RH bow to usually react by swinging left,
> at the instant the arrow takes off.
> 
> 
> d) FINALLY,
> we have TWO STYLES of maintaining FULL DRAW.
> 
> 
> STYLE 1 - DEAD BOW ARM...think 2x4...bow arm is PASSIVE...bow hand is fully RELAXED
> 
> STYLE 2 - PUSH-PULL...BOW ARM is PUSHING...RELEASE ARM IS PULLING
> (trying to RIP THE BOW APART into TWO PIECES...shoot the bow like you are MAD at IT)
> 
> 
> The PUSH-PULL technique is very difficult to master,
> and the PUSH SIDE HALF of your body (bow arm side)
> must be perfectly balanced
> with the PULL SIDE HALF of your body (release arm side).
> 
> Posture must be DEAD VERTICAL...
> (Release side forearm bones must be DEAD STRAIGHT behind the arrow)
> 
> *Release side forearm follow through should be short...precise...hard...fast
> the follow through motion of the release side elbow should be like a RIFLE BOLT...*
> 
> Bow Arm follow through motion should be Natural,
> AND
> DIRECTED at the target/arrow flight path...
> 
> IF you are shooting a LONG ATA target style bow,
> with long straight limbs...
> 
> then,
> the bow riser will JUMP FORWARD out of your RELAXED bow hand,
> and the bow riser will JUMP into the finger sling
> or
> the bow riser will JUMP forward, until the bow sling hits your wrist...
> 
> IF you have mastered the PUSH and PULL forces EQUALLY...
> 
> IF you have mastered the "power triangle" body posture/alignment
> 
> IF you have mastered the "relaxed" bow hand wrist, forward flip movement..
> 
> (HINT...look for more recent youtube video clips of Dave Cousins)


Wow, did you ever hit the nail on the head…

For the past 18 months or so (the length of time I’ve been shooting), I have been trying, very unsuccessfully, to master the push pull method.
I’d either have a run of left misses or switch back and forth between left and right misses if I ended up overcompensating.

Last month I decided to go with the passive bow arm method and the lefts have all but ceased. 
Now when I miss it’s usually low and right which is, I think, a result of getting a little weak in on the release side.

Follow through on good shots is not overly explosive, but is straight forward with the bow arm and a quick short recoil with the release hand straight back along the face. I’ll check out the videos you mentioned and see what I can do to become more consistent as I learn this method. 

Thanks for the information…This thread is a true pearl!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

montigre said:


> Wow, did you ever hit the nail on the head…
> 
> For the past 18 months or so (the length of time I’ve been shooting), I have been trying, very unsuccessfully, to master the push pull method.
> I’d either have a run of left misses or switch back and forth between left and right misses if I ended up overcompensating.
> 
> Last month I decided to go with the passive bow arm method and the lefts have all but ceased.
> Now when I miss it’s usually low and right which is, I think, a result of getting a little weak in on the release side.
> 
> Follow through on good shots is not overly explosive, but is straight forward with the bow arm and a quick short recoil with the release hand straight back along the face. I’ll check out the videos you mentioned and see what I can do to become more consistent as I learn this method.
> 
> Thanks for the information…This thread is a true pearl!!!


Here is a recent video (2009) of Dave Cousins at the Nime tournament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er7qmlN3dLE&feature=related

First shot in the video clip,
is a very nice example of the release side elbow follow through.

Short, precise, directly in line behind the arrow.


You especially notice,
the "angle" formed by the upper arm and the forearm.

While at full draw,
the angle is medium "small" between the upper arm and the forearm,
on the release side.

After the release side elbow follow through,
the forearm moves straight back, like a rifle bolt...

and you can see at the "end" of the short follow through reaction,
when the release side elbow has finished the follow through reaction,
the "angle" is now VERY small,
between the upper arm and the forearm.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Follow Through Release Side Example - Dave Cousins*

Here is a sequence of photos of Dave Cousins at the Nime Tournament in 2009.

This is precise, exact, in line behind the arrow.


----------



## montigre

That's it!! I can use this as a practice tool along with my vid camera. I'll buy you lunch when we meet on the road!!! :teeth:


----------



## damascusdave

*Saw this done for the first time last week*



nuts&bolts said:


> 1. What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the draw weight of your bow? To ATA? How many twists in or out constitutes too many?
> 
> 
> You have several questions bunched together here.
> 
> *1a) What does adding or removing 4 twists or less to the bowstring, do to the draw weight of your bow?*
> Answer: You will barely notice any measurable change to the draw weight of the bow.
> 
> Answer: Adding or removing 4 twists to the bowstring, or say 6 twists to the bowstring,
> may help you tighten up or loosen up the "float" pattern of your sight pin/scope dot/ scope circle.
> 
> Answer: You can twist up a bowstring, enough to SHORTEN the bow draw length setting by about 1/4-inch shorter.
> Answer: You can usually untwist a bowstring, enough to LENGTHEN the bow draw length setting by about 1/4-inch longer.
> 
> Answer: Building a CUSTOM bowstring, one-inch shorter than the factory spec length, or MORE than two-inches shorter, etc.
> is called..."SHORT-STRINGING".
> 
> "SHORT-STRINGING" is a technique (kinda last resort technique) to reduce the bow draw length setting, beyond the factory settings.
> 
> Say you bought a fixed draw length bow for a great price on EBay,
> and the factory draw length setting is 29-inches.
> 
> You NEED a 28-inch draw length bow,
> and since this is a out of production bow...
> 
> you cannot easily get a 28-inch draw length cam for this bow.
> 
> So,
> you build a custom bowstring, that is SHORT enough,
> to bring down the draw length 1-inch shorter. Bowstring might need to be 1.4-inches shorter than factory spec,
> bowstring might need to be 2.9 inches shorter than factory spec. This is a kinda gotta guess and try again scenario,
> to get the bow draw length setting DOWN to the draw length setting you want.
> 
> So,
> when you SHORT-STRING a bow, you
> 
> a) make the bow draw length setting shorter (obviously)
> 
> AND
> 
> b) as a side effect, the holding weight goes UP, and the draw weight goes DOWN noticeably.


I was in an archery shop last week when a fellow brought in an old Proline compound that his brother used before he died. He told us that his brother had been a big man and that the bow was hard to draw. By turning the sticker just the right way to the light I could see that it was a 75 to 90 pound draw weight. It also called for a 60 inch string. The bow tech in the shop remembered that she used to knock down the poundage on these bows by short stringing them, she did so in a matter of minutes, and the bow ended up drawing somewhere under 60 pounds. I had an old autumn orange 2219 with me that I had grabbed by mistake so I gave him the arrow to shoot.

He was a happy man when he left because he could shoot that bow and at the same time remember his brother and his life.


----------



## Team Notyap

N&B, Great thread, thanks. I have a followp question on centershot. On post#21, you said to adjust SIGHTS at point blank range. On post #30, you siad adjust ARRROW REST at point blank range. Did I read something wrong?, Does it matter?


----------



## ballison90

Could someone explain tiller, the adjustments and what they do, and how they affect the bow?


----------



## montigre

ballison90 said:


> Could someone explain tiller, the adjustments and what they do, and how they affect the bow?


Read posts #144-146 above. Great explaination of concept of tiller tuning and what to expect when experimenting with it.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Team Notyap said:


> N&B, Great thread, thanks. I have a followp question on centershot. On post#21, you said to adjust SIGHTS at point blank range. On post #30, you siad adjust ARRROW REST at point blank range. Did I read something wrong?, Does it matter?


Sorry, Team Notyap:

Old age.

Point blank range,
say less than 10 feet,
maybe 6 feet or so...

adjust your pins (windage)
when shooting at point blank range.

Shoot at a vertical edge of paper
or a string with a weight on the end,
hanging off a nail.

Paper folded, to create a vertical edge is easier,
cuz you can see the arrow splitting the edge,
half the arrow on the paper,
half the arrow off the paper edge.

Tweak your pin windage (horizontal adjustment)
until you can split the edge of the paper,
with your field point.

Then,
shoot any longer convenient distance,
could be 20 feet, could be 20 yards, could be 60 yards...

and "group tune" with your arrow rest,
to get your arrow group centered on the bullseye.

When you have the arrow rest tweaked for centershot (horizontal adjustment),
and your arrow group is centered on the "longer distance" bullseye...

then,
go back to the point blank range,
and shoot the vertical edge of paper,
and...

maybe, you might need a tiny adjustment
to your sight pin windage,
to get back to perfect.

Then,
go back to the longer range shooting,
and see if your arrow group is still centered on the bullseye.

Back and forth.

Long range shooting (adjust arrow rest).
Point blank shooting (adjust sight pin windage).

After a couple of times,
you will have the bow adjusted perfectly 
for how YOU hold your bow.


----------



## ballison90

sorry, missed it


----------



## Team Notyap

You mentioned bareshaft tuning. Can you explain this please?


----------



## BowTechCDR

I just sent more copies of the tuning guide out. If I missed you, please forward your email address and I will get the guided to you.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Bareshaft Tuning and Level Nock Travel*



Team Notyap said:


> You mentioned bareshaft tuning. Can you explain this please?


Hello Team Notyap:

So many methods to try to figure out the optimum adjustments,
to get an arrow to fly where we want it to.


So,
an arrow is no different than a missle.

Generally,
long and skinny,
flies very fast,
and both are trying to hit a target.

You add fins at the back end of the missle,
to help make the missle flight more directionally stable.

Same for an arrow.

The vanes or the feathers at the back end of an arrow,
provide a TREMENDOUS amount of steering correction.


So,
if we take OFF the steering correction...
what happens?

Well,
when you shoot an arrow with ZERO steering correction...

then,
the "bareshaft" (arrow with no vanes...no feathers)
will EXAGGERATE any shooting technique problems
and
will EXAGGERATE any bow mal-adjustment problems.

So,
there is an old saying..."you can tune only as well as you shoot".

A nicer way of saying this,
is..."*when tuning, ignore the bad shots, and only look at the good shots*".


So,
if you choose to shoot a few bareshafts,
and...

this is the first time you are trying this out,
start very very close, say 5 yards,
and see if you can get the bareshafts to group.

I always suggest that you shoot bareshafts
at a bullseye set at YOUR exact shoulder height,
cuz...

this forces you to raise up the bowhand HIGH enough,
so that the bareshaft is near DEAD LEVEL,
when you are at full draw.

We want the bareshaft to start at DEAD LEVEL,
prior to launch,
so we can judge any nock high or nock low conditions,
when you hit your target.

The target should be a layered foam block,
or a solid foam target.

If you are shooting a bag target,
then the bag could cause the bareshaft to have weird angles (nock high or low)
from the uneven stuffing material.


So,
you are firing your bareshafts (say a total of 3)
into your foam block target or layered foam target
or at the indoor range.

You have two bareshafts that group together,
and 1 flier.

Ignore the flier, and pull it out.

The two bareshafts that grouped together,
are both in the bullseye...

BUT...

we have a nock high condition,
which means
that the point is lower (point of the bareshaft are in the bullseye)
but,
the nock is higher off the ground,
than the points.

So,
this means that the TOP HALF of the bow is working harder....pulling harder
and
this means that the BOTTOM HALF of the bow is working less hard..pulling less hard.

We do not have "level nock travel"...is the official term.


So,
let's assume a few basic things:

a) we assume that the arrow rest is set so that the center of the arrow passes through the center of the two arrow rest holes (berger holes), while the bow is at rest.

b) we assume that the d-loop is set so that the arrow forms a 90 degree angle

or

we assume that the d-loop is set so that the arrow is 1/8th inch above the spot
where the arrow forms a 90 degree angle with the bowstring...arrow is pointing ever so slightly downhill....

either style is perfectly fine....90 degrees is ok...slightly above 90 degrees is ok.



So,
what does it REALLY mean,
when we say the TOP HALF of the bow is working HARDER
and
the BOTTOM HALF of the bow is working less HARD???

Well,
the TOP HALF of the bow is really no different than a fishing reel.

Well,
the BOTTOM HALF of the bow is also really no different than a fishing reel.


So,
the TOP FISHING REEL is pulling in "line"..(actually bowstring)
a tiny bit TOO FAST.

So,
the BOTTOM FISHING REEL is pulling in "line"...(actually bowstring)
a tiny bit TOO SLOW.


Ok.

for the really technical folks,
since the TOP metal thingy
and
since the BOTTOM metal thingy
all go through the same amount of partial revolutions...

the TOP METAL THINGY pulls in TOO MUCH bowstring,
and
the BOTTOM METAL THINGY pulls in NOT ENOUGH bowstring.


This is actually what it means,
when you shoot a bareshaft (actually several bareshafts)
into a bullseye at YOUR exact shoulder height...

and

the nock end of the bareshafts are HIGHER than
the pointy end of the bareshafts,
which are all in the bullseye.

*So,
how do we get the nock end of the bareshafts
to be at the same height above the ground (level bareshaft flight)
and
all in the bullseye???*


We have a "talk" with the BOTTOM half of the bow
and
with the TOP half of the bow,
and get them to work together.

So,
if the TOP HALF of the bow is "reeling in" too much bowstring...

this means that TOO MUCH bowstring unwrapped from the TOP METAL thingy,
when we reached full draw.


So,
try finding the cable end loop
that ends on a peg attached to the TOP METAL THINGY,
and LENGTHEN this cable,
by REMOVING twists from this cable end loop, that attaches to the TOP METAL THINGY.

Just try REMOVING 1/2 twist
and see what happens.

A little adjustment usually goes a LONG WAY,
towards cleaning up baresahft arrow flight.

You may or may not need to repeat this procedure (untwist the cable end loop that attaches to the TOP METAL THINGY).


----------



## Bowtech717

Semper Fi


----------



## Madlaz

Nuts and Bolts do you have any pictures of an over rotaded cam and an under rotaded cam for comparison also how a string should come off the cam at rest thanks.Laz


----------



## nuts&bolts

Madlaz said:


> Nuts and Bolts do you have any pictures of an over rotaded cam and an under rotaded cam for comparison also how a string should come off the cam at rest thanks.Laz


Hello Laz:

How a string should come off a cam "at rest",
differs depending on the cam,
so can't help you unless you provide a specific request for a particular cam.

*"Under-Rotated"*

Let's say we are talking about the top cam.

You are using a draw board,
and you are slowly approaching full draw.

Ok.

Bottom cam hits "full draw" first.
There usually is a flat section on the module,
where this FLAT section contacts the cable.

So,
since the FLAT section of the module has fully contacted the cable
on the bottom cam...

then,
we may have a condition where the TOP CAM flat section of the module 
has NOT YET contacted the cable. We have a gap up on the top cam.

I get my forwards/backwards and up/down confused.

Let's just call this the "...we have a gap on the top cam..." at full draw condition.


Well,
then the OTHER CONDITION,
is going to be the "...we have a gap on the bottom cam..." at full draw condition.

So,
if the FLAT section of the module on the TOP CAM contacts the cable first...,
then,
that also means we have a gap on the FLAT section of the module, on the BOTTOM CAM.

The wall will feel kinda mushy.

So,
if you continue pulling into the wall,
so that BOTH FLAT sections of the modules (top and bottom) are fully in contact with the cables...

then,
you could say the TOP CAM has to rotate MORE than "normal",
in order to close the gap on the bottom cam, where the FLAT section of the module and the cable want to meet.


----------



## Madlaz

Nuts and Bolts the cam is a furious x cam shoot thru picture is worth a thousand words lol Laz going to keep racking your brain .


----------



## BowTechCDR

The new working title of the guide:

"The Nuts & Bolts Of Archery: A Guide To Tuning And Shooting Compound Bows"

What do you think??


----------



## Madlaz

Hi Alan is there a differnce between between sincronysing a cam and timing a cam if there is please let us know thanks Laz oldre I get the spelling and puktuation gets worse this is archery not English Class lol,


----------



## nuts&bolts

Madlaz said:


> Hi Alan is there a differnce between between sincronysing a cam and timing a cam if there is please let us know thanks Laz oldre I get the spelling and puktuation gets worse this is archery not English Class lol,


Hello Laz:

The terminology can be very confusing.

When folks get picky about "synchronizing" and "timing",
they are especially talking about the Hoyt Cam.5 system,
but actually are talking about hybrid cam systems in general,
and
really all cam systems, very loosely.

We want the FLAT section of the modules to hit the cables at the same time.

Top and bottom metal thingies,
in mirror image to each other.

So,
let's say we twist up the cables 10-inches shorter than factory spec,
and
we get the flat section of the modules (top and bottom)
to both contact the cables at the same time.

Well,
this is good
and
this is bad.

The good part...

we have a super solid wall, when at full draw.

The bad part...

the cables are no where near the correct length,
so the cam final rotation position,
is no where near where the cam designer intended.


So,
this is an EXTREME example,
but you get the idea.


So,
we want the cable lengths near the "perfect" length,
so that we get the final cam rotation position
correct.

So,
we want the flat section of the modules to contact the cables
at the same time.


So,
one condition is called "synchronization"
and
the other condition is called "timing".


----------



## BowTechCDR

There is just soooo much good stuff here.


----------



## Clay34

nuts&bolts said:


> ...So,
> one condition is called "synchronization"
> and
> the other condition is called "timing".


So, which one is which? In other words is tuning just the stops called synching and tuning the whole cam mod throughout it's path call synchronization or is it the other way around? Thanks.

Rick


----------



## nuts&bolts

Clay34 said:


> So, which one is which? In other words is tuning just the stops called synching and tuning the whole cam mod throughout it's path call synchronization or is it the other way around? Thanks.
> 
> Rick


Hello Rick:

To synchronize,
means to move together exactly.

Synchronized swimming, for example.

So,
to synchronize two cams,
means to adjust the cables so that
the two cams
or the top metal thingy and the bottom metal thingy
are moving together in unison,
but as exact mirror images of each other.

So,
if we tweak the cables so that...

the top and bottom metal thingies
have the flat section of the cam/module
BOTH hit the cables at exactly the same instant...
we have synchronization,
we have a very SOLID feeling wall.

BUT....

if we did this,
and we have the cables say 10-INCHES too short,
sure,
the cams are moving together in EXACT mirror images of each other...

(NOTE: this is an EXTREME example, to just make the concepts easy to understand)

we have EXACT mirror images (synchronization)
BUT,
the final rotation position
is no where near what the cam designer had in mind.

When we have too little available cable length...

we also have TOO LITTLE rotation available,
which means when the cable lengths are WAY WAY TOO SHORT,
the cams will rotate, but not nearly enough,
so the FINAL ROTATION position will be way out of whack.

With cables say 10-INCHES too short,
if the cams are starting their rotation at 12-o'clock,
and the cables are WAY too short,
maybe the cams rotate up to 1-o'clock....

when,
the cams need to start rotation at 12-o'clock,
and
need to finish rotation say at 10-o'clock.


So,
starting rotation position
and
final rotation postion,
is "TIMING".

To get to the final rotation position PROPERLY,
we need the correct cable lengths.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Continuation of SYNCH and TIMED*

*So,
when you see the phrase "....you can be synch'd, but not timed...",
now you know what they mean.*

So,
let's get down to the Hoyt Cam.5 system,
since this is usually where I see these kinds of comments,
"...you can be synch'd, but still not get it right, as in 'not timed'..."


The bottom thingy on the Hoyt Cam.5 is the "cam".

The top metal thingy on the Hoyt Cam.5 is really a Idler Wheel, just not a round one,
but this top metal thingy is a non-round idler wheel with a draw length module, with a flat section.

The bottom metal thingy on the Hoyt Cam.5 is the "cam", also with a draw length module,
with a flat section.

To get the Hoyt Cam.5 system in SYNCH,
means we want the draw length module (the reference is the long, straight, flat section)
to move together as MIRROR images,
so that we get the long, straight flat section of the draw length module
to BOTH contact the cables at the SAME TIME....SYNCHRONIZED MOTION, just like the Olympic Swimmers.

BIG BUT......
we also have to get the TOP METAL thingy and the BOTTOM METAL thingy
at the correct CLOCK POSITIONS (final rotation position, at full draw).

The amount of rotation (angular movement) is controlled by the length of the cables.

So,
HOW DO WE know what length the cables should be?


STEP 1: look up the appropriate HOYT string/cam chart
http://www.hoyt.com/customer_service/hoyt_tune_charts.php

STEP 2: Put your bowstring, your buss cable, your control cable into a stretching device (could be ratchet straps) and stretch to about 100 lbs of tension (twangs like a guitar string).

STEP 3: ADD or REMOVE half twists until your end loop to end loop matches the reference lengths (*technically, you measure from the outside edge of the ratchet strap hook inside the loop*)

STEP 4: With the cables and the bowstring re-installed correctly onto your bow...REMOVE say 10 to 20 twists in your bowstring
(reason is....you want the bowstring kinda loose, so you ABSOLUTELY KNOW that only the CABLES are holding the bow together...*all the load on the cables...zero influence on ATA from the bowstring*)

STEP 5: ADD or REMOVE half twists from the cables so that the ATA is 1/4-inch LONGER than factory spec

STEP 6: Now, we SYNCH (there's that term again....hehehehehe), now we add or remove half twists to the buss cable and/or the control cable, to get MIRROR IMAGES on the flat section of the draw length modules
*(NOTE: HOYT says that you MUST have the limb bolts at maximum....AND you MUST have the draw length module screw in HOLE #D...to do these procedures, REGARDLESS of YOUR correct module screw hole location)*

When you are DONE, the long flat section of the modules will BOTH hit the cables at the same time.











Now that the long flat section of the modules
are BOTH hitting the cables at the same time....

we now have the "correct" cable length for the buss cable and for the control cable.


Now,
since we have the screw in the "D" draw length module screw hole....

now,
we have to use a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.

Let's say we are tuning a 2010 Vantage Elite with the Cam & 1/2 Plus,
with XT 2000 limbs and the #2 CAM.

So, since we have the screw in the "D" draw length module hole
the AMO DRAW LENGTH should be 28-inches.












So,
since we have removed LOTS of twists out of the bowstring,
so that the bowstring has ZERO influence on the bow ATA,
we KNOW that the bowstring length is incorrect (ON PURPOSE).

So,
HOW DO WE GET THE BOWSTRING to the correct length?


We know that the AMO DL setting, in the "D" draw length module screw hole,
is supposed to give us a 28.0-inches of DRAW LENGTH,
with the #2 cam on the 2010 Vantage Elie with the Cam & 1/2 Plus system.

GOTTA USE a draw board, now.










We need this measurement,
to read 1/75-INCHES LESS THAN THE AMO DRAW LENGTH SETTING.

So,
using something like this...










we whip out the tape measure,
and measure from the deepest part of the groove on the grip (far side of the 1/2-inch threaded pipe on the draw board)
and
measure to the spot where the nock groove touches the center serving,
and CONFIRM THAT WE HAVE 26.25-inches...(using that tape measure).

We have to ADD TWISTS to the bowstring,
and
take the bow out of the portable bow press,
and
put the bow into the draw board,
and whip out that tape measure....again and again and again...

until the tape measure reads 26.25-inches EXACTLY from the far edge of the pipe on the draw board,
to the string groove on the nock where it touches the center serving between the d-loop knots.

When the TAPE MEASURE *finally* reads 26.25-INCHES,
then....
we have the ABSOLUTE CORRECT bowstring length,
and the bow NOW has the ABSOLUTE SPOT ON draw length....DEAD ACCURATE.

NOW,
you move the draw length screw into the correct for YOU, draw length module screw hole,
so that NOW your bow draw length setting is within 1/4-INCH of perfect...

cuz NOW, you can go back and forth with the portable bow press
and
ADD or REMOVE half twists from the bowstring,
to INCREASE or DECREASE the bow draw length setting by a MAXIMUM of 1/4-inch.


AFTER all of this...

*your bow is SYNCH'd....

your bow is TIMED...

your bow is DRAW LENGTH adjusted ACCURATELY.*


----------



## Madlaz

The only thing is to say WoW if anyone cant understand this just ask N&B what you dont understand and he will answer you in private oron the forum dont be afraid to ask questions he will answer you no matter how dumb the question is this is great for beginners to the experts thanks Alan. Laz


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to Tune a BRAND NEW set of arrows and a FRANKEN-BOW*

FRANKEN - BOW = bow that was not envisioned by the factory.

Martin Mystic with Nitrous B cams (twin cam bow, with dis-continued cam system).
The bow was originally tuned for "properly spined" GoldTip UL 400 Pros.

Arrow Rest is a Spot Hogg Premier with a launcher blade set to max spring tension
(behaves like a spring steel rest...but the axle has adjustable rotation tension).

NEW ARROW = Carbon Express Nano XR 450s

NOTE: the CX Nano arrows are notorious for shooting very stiff
or another way to put this, is that at least for the recurve folks,
the CX Nanos have a reputation for shooting about 2 sizes STIFFER
than the spine rating.


So,
FOLKS,
keep a journal or notebook,
so you can write down your changes,
during EACH experiment.

*STEP 1 = MODIFIED FRENCH Tuning*

I was at the outdoor practice range this AM,
so...

I lined up on the 10 yard target (close range or point blank range shooting).

Loaded up the brand new CX Nano XR 450 arrow.
(actually, bought these used from a fellow here on AT)
(no idea what the point weight was)
(total arrow length about 1/2-inch shorter than my GoldTips).

Fired at the vertical edge of the cardboard backed field archery target face.

Missed by 1/4-inch...
make a windage adjustment to my scope
and
nailed the vertical edge of the target face
(half of the arrow diameter off the target face and half on the target face).


FIRED a group of 3 arrows at the 60 yard target face,
and made adjustments to the arrow rest,
to get the group centered.

Not great arrow group size....about 5-6 inches wide, nearly double the bullseye diameter.

*STEP 2 = ADJUST THE SIDE STABILIZER WEIGHT to straighten out the 
bow follow -through reaction*

I am using a long front stabilizer,
and
ONE SIDE stabilizer (off to the left).

Since I am shooting a target style bow (not a parallel limb design),
the bow tends to jump forward a tiny amount (after the shot)
and
the front stabilizer tends to dip down AFTER the shot.

HOWEVER,
the bow reaction AFTER the shot,
was a very slow twirl to my LEFT (end of stabilizer would dip down and twist left).

EASY way to fix this,
is to add MORE weight to the end of the side stabilizer (on my left side)
and
this will straighten out the bow reaction (get rid of the slow twirl to the left).

I use handy dandy fender washers (from the local hardware store)
and added more and more washers to the end of the side stabilizer
until the bow reaction was straight
and the slow twirl to the left was REDUCED to zero.

*STEP 3 = DRAW WEIGHT ADJUSTMENT*

Always experiment with the draw weight,
to see if you can improve your arrow group size.

Here are my ACTUAL log book entries.....

***___5-5-4 rings (*original limb bolt position*)

***___5-ring (*added 1/8th turn to both limb bolts*)

***___5-ring (added another 1/8th - *total of 1/4 turn extra on limb bolts*)

***___1 flyer, 2 arrows 1.5-inches (*total of 3/4 turn extra on limb bolts*)

***___1 flyer, 1.5-inch group for 2 "good arrows" (*total of 1.25 turns*)
COMMENT: "...extra draw weight is SHORTENING the DL...slightly"
COMMENT: "...switched from fiber optic to solid dot...VERY SOLID hold"
COMMENT: "...feels very solid wall"
COMMENT: "...draw length is VERY nice"
COMMENT: "...dot is *EXCEPTIONALLY* stable"
COMMENT: "...need to add half turn to bowstring end loop to fix peep twist"

***___Added EXTRA 1/2 turn to limb bolts for a total of 1.75 turns

DECIDED to "GROUP TUNE" at this point.

*STEP 4 = GROUP TUNING*

Focused on "good shots" only, and made sure that the end of the front stabilizer
follow through reaction was STRAIGHT, with ZERO TWIRL.

Made TINY, SUPER SMALL adjustments to centershot at 50 yards
(comfortable shooting distance).

If 2 arrows were say 1-inch left of the x-ring
and
the remaining single arrow was say 3/4-inch right of the x-ring...
then,
we have a slight LEFT emphasis to the arrow steering by the arrow rest...

and,
moved the arrow rest a tiny smidgen to the right (actual adjustment, maybe 1/64th).


If 2 arrows were say 3/4-inch right of the x-ring,
and
the remaining arrow was say 1/2-inch left of the x-ring...

then,
moved the arrow rest a even SMALLER smidgen to the left.

You folks get the idea.

HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOUR SHOTS,
(ignore the flyers)
and
make the adjustments to your arrow rest,
to fine tune the horizontal point of impact for your arrows.


Ok.

Finally,
I got a skinny, tall, VERTICAL PATTERN to my arrows.

I had all my arrows about 1-2 arrow diameter wide,
but was hitting HIGH and LOW above and below the x-ring.


Ok.


NOW,
we adjust the vertical position of the arrow rest.

If the LEVEL arrow nock travel is say 4 ft above the ground (I'm about 6'2")
and
if the arrow REST is say 3/64ths HIGHER above the ground (when at full draw)..

then,
the arrow rest will act like a spring board at the swimming pool,
and catapult the arrow slightly,
and the vanes have to FIGHT to get stable, level arrow flight
(results in HIGH-LOW arrow points of impact).


So,
I initially guessed that the arrow rest was TOO LOW
and started raising the arrow rest elevation (micro adjust on the Premier Rest).

Groups got worse.

Ok.

I undid the extra vertical adjustment on the arrow rest,
and
started adjusting the arrow rest in the DOWN direction,
a tiny smidgen at a time.

Tweak the arrow rest in the down direction,
and
the super narrow, but TALL arrow groups,
got shorter and shorter.


Soooooo...

the final result of all this tuning,
to get the Franken-Bow and the brand spanking new arrows tuned...



















50 yards
NFAA target face.


Have faith in your "good" shots.

Tune your equipment to the best of your ability.

Then,
sometimes...

everything just "WORKS"..."CLICKS"...

I have never shot CX Nanos before,
got a great price,
and shot them outdoors for the first time today.

If I can do this,
then...

you can too!


PS: When I got back to the shop,
and measured the current draw length...

the current draw length is about 1/16th inch SHORTER,
due to the 1-3/4 EXTRA turns on the limb bolts,
that the new arrows needed.

My intention was to get the optimum draw weight,
but...

the SIDE EFFECT, as that the DL also shortened a TINY bit,
and the
solid dot on my Beiter Scope suddenly become a ROCK SOLID HOLD.

Small changes can sometimes get you LARGE BENEFITS.


----------



## Madlaz

Alan i owe you a steak dinner if ever you come to Michigan great post on actually tuning this will work on all set ups.Laz


----------



## BowTechCDR

I know that everyone can understand this because I CAN and I am easily confused. 

Wow, the knowledge being passed through this thread is incredible!!!!!

Thanks!!!


----------



## bo-w

As a "long distance" shooter (when I have room) my self I wonder what is a safe distance to group tune? Also what tunning methods or adjustments would one want to have done before group tunning ? Also I would imagine that for group tunning there would have to be no wind at all correct?


----------



## nuts&bolts

bo-w said:


> As a "long distance" shooter (when I have room) my self I wonder what is a safe distance to group tune? Also what tunning methods or adjustments would one want to have done before group tunning ? Also I would imagine that for group tunning there would have to be no wind at all correct?


See post #177.


*STEP 1 = MODIFIED FRENCH Tuning*

(goal is to get the arrow groups centered on the bullseye at long range)
(adjust arrow rest horizontal position)

and

(goal is to hit a vertical edge of paper at point blank range)
(only adjust sight dot/circle windage at really short shooting distance)


*STEP 2 = ADJUST THE SIDE STABILIZER WEIGHT to straighten out the 
bow follow -through reaction*


*STEP 3 = DRAW WEIGHT ADJUSTMENT*

Always experiment with the draw weight,
to see if you can improve your arrow group size.
DECIDED to "GROUP TUNE" at this point.


*STEP 4 = GROUP TUNING*

Focused on "good shots" only, and made sure that the end of the front stabilizer
follow through reaction was STRAIGHT, with ZERO TWIRL.

Made TINY, SUPER SMALL adjustments to centershot at 50 yards
(comfortable shooting distance).

If 2 arrows were say 1-inch left of the x-ring
and
the remaining single arrow was say 3/4-inch right of the x-ring...
then,
we have a slight LEFT emphasis to the arrow steering by the arrow rest...

and,
moved the arrow rest a tiny smidgen to the right (actual adjustment, maybe 1/64th).


If 2 arrows were say 3/4-inch right of the x-ring,
and
the remaining arrow was say 1/2-inch left of the x-ring...

then,
moved the arrow rest a even SMALLER smidgen to the left.

You folks get the idea.

HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOUR SHOTS,
(ignore the flyers)
and
make the adjustments to your arrow rest,
to fine tune the horizontal point of impact for your arrows.

Have faith in your "good" shots.

Tune your equipment to the best of your ability.


----------



## nuts&bolts

bo-w said:


> As a "long distance" shooter (when I have room) my self I wonder what is a safe distance to group tune? Also what tunning methods or adjustments would one want to have done before group tunning ? Also I would imagine that for group tunning there would have to be no wind at all correct?


You can only "tune" to the best of your shooting ability.

So,
in order to get "GOOD" information,
then you should "group tune" at a distance,
where YOU KNOW you can shoot good groups.

So,
let's say your current setup shoots "GOOD GROUPS" at 30 yards.

Let's say, for this example,
a GOOD GROUP for you, on average, is 6-inches at 30-yards.

You may shoot longer distances...sometimes,
but you KNOW that you can ALWAYS shoot your average 6-inch groups at 30 yards...
DEAD RELIABLE groups at 6-inches at 30 yards.

So,
the goal of "GROUP TUNING" is to improve your personal best group size.

You tweak the arrow rest horizontal position (say 1/128th inch adjustment...you know, really really small adjustment)
to get the arrow group as NARROW as possible, in the horizontal measurement direction.

Then,
you tweak the arrow rest vertical position (say 1/128th inch adjustment...you know, really really really really tiny adjustments...serious, really tiny for vertical direction)
to get the arrow group as SHORT as possible, in the vertical measurement direction.


So,
maybe you are a 1.5-inch group average size shooter at 50 yards.

Have confidence in your shooting ability,
and dare to believe that you can improve on that.

Tweak the arrow rest,
only evaluate your "GOOD" shots,
and see if you can get your arrow group size
to shrink beyond your average group size,
maybe...

even...

beyond your personal best group size.


----------



## bo-w

ok sorry i missed the earlier post as to what needs to be done in order . thanks vary much. now its time to dig my sure loc head out of storage :doh: (i have a pin sight on for the time being) . and find somewhere to shoot out to 70m. thanks again

Bo


----------



## BowTechCDR

Regarding draw length:
1. What is the proper method for determining draw length?
2. Is there a way you can 'know' your draw length is right? By that, I mean can you "feel" the right draw length, or, what should the 'right' draw length feel like? I know the 'feel' is different for everyone, it just seems there should be some common/obvious things you could look for when setting your draw length. What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else.
3. Is there anything to avoid when setting your draw length? Pitfalls, safety issues, etc.?

Thanks.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to figure out the BEST FOR YOU bow draw length setting*



BowTechCDR said:


> Regarding draw length:
> 1. What is the proper method for determining draw length?
> 2. Is there a way you can 'know' your draw length is right? By that, I mean can you "feel" the right draw length, or, what should the 'right' draw length feel like? I know the 'feel' is different for everyone, it just seems there should be some common/obvious things you could look for when setting your draw length. What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else.
> 3. Is there anything to avoid when setting your draw length? Pitfalls, safety issues, etc.?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Cheers! :cheers:
> 
> Tim


Hello Tim:

Short answer: best draw length setting on the bow gets you the BEST arrow groups.

Medium length answer: best draw length for YOU, is where the "float" for your sight pin or scope dot/circle is not too fast (tight pattern, but herky-jerky) 
and not too slow (large float pattern, and slow like molasses).

Longer length answer:

***---you want the release side elbow and the release side forearm LINED UP directly behind the arrow.






























BEST for YOU bow draw length setting,
will allow YOU to get to full draw,
AND
be in a "balanced" upper and lower body posture.










Excellent full draw position.












Room for some improvement in the picture on th left.
Picture on the right, is an excellent full draw position.











Upper body is leaning backwards,
causing extra weight on the rear foot,
so the hips are more forwards towards the target.

No problem shooting on level ground.
Big problem shooting downhill from a tree stand,
and
big problem when trying uphill shots (NFAA field archery, for example).































Fellow on the left can get away with this style of posture,
when shooting indoors, on a level floor,
but
he will have troubles on uneven ground, severe downhill shots
and
uphill shots.

Fellow on the right, has an excellent full draw position.


Whenever you see that the release side forearm is NOT in line with the arrow (in this example, the "high" wrist, instead of a flat, straight wrist)...
then, the holding tension will be ENTIRELY in the upper arm muscles, and VERY LITTLE tension in the larger, stronger BACK muscles.

So,
the "HIGH" wrist, is also a tell tale sign
that the bow DRAW LENGTH setting is too long.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Draw Length setting on the bow, and POSTURE clues*










Wrist is up high...

wrist is not in line with the arrow...

wrist is up high, AND release side elbow is down low.

Tell tale sign that the bow draw length setting is TOO LONG.



Another example of wrist too high,
and release side elbow too low,
which basically means the release arm is NOT in line directly behind the arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Draw Length BEFORE and AFTER stories*

BEFORE PICTURE










Posture is out of whack.
Upper body is shifted/leaning backwards,
so the too much emphasis on the rear leg/half of the body.

When the legs are NOT vertical,
this creates an imbalance/unstable structure in the hip joints,
due to the angle of the leg bones in the upper leg.


Photo analysis and recommenations (doctored up photo).











AFTER PHOTO










She is much happier with her shooting,
and beats her hubby on occasion, at the 3D shoots.

THAT'S how you know,
that the "new" draw length setting works for you.

Try out the NEW draw length setting for 30 days,
and if your average scores get better...
then,
you are on the correct track.



Another BEFORE and AFTER story.











Shot for YEARS at 29-inch DL.

Decided to explore and see if he could get higher average scores,
and decided to post up a pic,
and ask for advice on AT.





















Dropped an inch OFF the draw length (went shorter).












Still at 28-inches of DL (one-inch shorter, but is now trying a handle release).













After about 9 months of experimenting,
letting things settle down,
and a bit of advice here and there....




















Over the 9-month period of experimenting,
the draw length dropped NEARLY 2-inches shorter.

He has been shooting just fine.


When you are shooting the BEST scores of your life,
then...

if you want to experiment further,
you experiment with DL changes 1 twist or 2 twists at a time,
in the bowstring. At this stage, you are trying to find that BEST float pattern,
to increase your x-ring average on a 3/4-inch circle,
at 18 meters (about 20 yards). At this stage,
a 1/16th inch draw length adjustment is SIGNIFICANT.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Draw length setting on the bow is all about GOOD POSTURE for starters*

No need for the recurve bow with 15 limbs.

No need for the arrow with the inch ruler markings on it.


Do realize that when shopping for bows,
that the GRIP ANGLE will change what draw length setting works BEST FOR YOU,
so...
if bow #1 has a very low wrist grip 
and a 28.0-inch DL works great for bow #1...

and

you go shopping for bow #2,
and bow #2 has a medium wrist grip angle,
then...
the DL setting that works BEST for you,
may be 1/4-inch or so different.



NEVER believe the sticker on the bottom limb,
when it comes to the DL setting.

ALWAYS put the bow onto a draw board,
and whip out the TAPE MEASURE
and get a real world measurement....

where the pivot point (deepest part of the curve on the grip)
to
the nock groove touching the center serving...

measures 1.75-inches LESS than the DL number on the label.

Sometimes,
most times??

the TAPE MEASURE reading will be on the LONG SIDE.


28.0-DL setting on the bow,
SHOULD give you a TAPE MEASURE reading of 26.25-inches,
when the bow is on the draw board.


----------



## BowTechCDR

*The guide in .pdf format*

Hi everyone,

I have the 'guide' available in .pdf format for anyone that wants it. If time permits, I will be updating the document this weekend.

Just pm me your email addy and I will send you what I have so far.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## bo-w

posture is flexable though, depending on the person correct? well obviously it is personally due to the way i was put together and the condition of my back i am a little "off" from good posture ( I slouch but its painfull to go really up-right) generally i look to be leaning back a bit but in reality I carry a bit more body weight on my forward footat full draw. if you could possibly give us all a few hints on getting around or working with flexability\posture issues that would be really cool.thanks 

Bo


----------



## Madlaz

Nuts And Bolts could you possibly show a close up off the high and low wrist positions wich are correct and wich are not .Also would you explain the step by steps on how to set up a hunting sight from peep set up to the finished product for the absolute beginner in setting up a sight thanks a lot Laz.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Posture and back conditions, neck conditions, shoulder conditions*



bo-w said:


> posture is flexable though, depending on the person correct? well obviously it is personally due to the way i was put together and the condition of my back i am a little "off" from good posture ( I slouch but its painfull to go really up-right) generally i look to be leaning back a bit but in reality I carry a bit more body weight on my forward footat full draw. if you could possibly give us all a few hints on getting around or working with flexability\posture issues that would be really cool.thanks
> 
> Bo


Hello Bo:

All of the prior examples, ASSUME zero conditions for neck, shoulders, upper/mid/lower back, elbows, wrists, etc.

ALWAYS listen to your body.
WORK with your body range of motion.

So,
if you have a back condition,
OF COURSE, do what you can so that you find what works FOR YOU.

I have worked with folks, who could not lift their bow hand to shoulder height...
repeated shoulder separations, resulted in limited range of motion.

So, we adapt, and find a "more comfortable"...lower anchor point, for this shooter.

Sometimes,
folks have limited neck rotation flexibility...for whatever reason,
could be herniated discs (say C1 or C2),
so then you have the shooter rotate their neck to a comfortable position,
and then work around that.


Sooooo,
if you are a RH shooter,
and
you have discomfort/limited range of motion
to be truly upright...

you find a bias towards the draw arm side more comfortable...(slight lean backwards)...

I would work with you to find a spacing for your feet
and
find a hip position/pelvis position...

where we try to shift the center of your lower body (think belly button)
a bit more towards your rear foot (right foot).

Keep the shoes parallel to each other,
because this orients the hip joint into the hip socket,
into a more stable configuration.

A little LESS FLEX in the left (forward) knee...
slightly MORE FLEX in the right (rear) knee...

The key to "feeling" balanced with your weight on the left and right foot...

lies in the shifting of your belly button (hip shift)
either a skosh more towards the target...
sideways shift towards the target of the lower body 

*(shifting sideways to get the forward leg more vertical or less vertical). *

Experiment with this sideways shifting of the lower body,
to find what "feels" most balanced,
so that your "upper body" lean is comfortable,
and you "FEEL CENTERED".


----------



## nuts&bolts

*High Wrist, Low Wrist, Medium Wrist and Grip Angles*



Madlaz said:


> Nuts And Bolts could you possibly show a close up off the high and low wrist positions wich are correct and wich are not .Also would you explain the step by steps on how to set up a hunting sight from peep set up to the finished product for the absolute beginner in setting up a sight thanks a lot Laz.


Hello Laz:



















These are pictures of the Shrewd Low Wrist Grip
and the Shrewd High Wrist Grip
for a Mathews bow.

"LOW WRIST" means that the grip angle is darn near vertical..
your wrist is very low, closer to the ground, due to the near vertical angle
of the grip....close to straight up.

"HIGH WRIST" means that the grip angle is farther away from vertical..
your wrist is higher, farther away from the ground, 
due to the grip angle.



Custom grips are available in a wide range of shapes,
a wide range of "angles".

Try to have a fully relaxed hand,
fingers naturally curling,
zero tension in the fingers,
meaty part of the thumb muscle as cushy as a down pillow,
where you can feel the bow sinking into the thumb muscle, AFTER you get to full draw
(cuz the hand is NOT relaxed, while GETTING to full draw),
so you MUST relax the bow hand thumb muscle..conscious effect in the beginning,
to let the thumb muscle get mushy.

Allow the bow hand to mold around the grip,
and get evenly distributed pressure
across the top of your palm,
across the middle of your palm/top of meaty part of thumb muscle
across the bottom of your palm/bottom corner of the meaty part of the thumb muscle.

Bottom of the lifeline of the palm,
should be just off the left edge of the RH grip.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Peep Sight Location, and the nock sitting on the side of your face*



Madlaz said:


> Nuts And Bolts could you possibly show a close up off the high and low wrist positions wich are correct and wich are not .Also would you explain the step by steps on how to set up a hunting sight from peep set up to the finished product for the absolute beginner in setting up a sight thanks a lot Laz.


Hello Laz:

We want the nock to land on the SAME EXACT spot,
along the side of your face for each and every shot.

We also want,
the forward/backward tilt angle of your HEAD
to be the same tilt angle for each and every shot.

Ideally,
ZERO forward tilt for your head...


ideally,
ZERO backward tilt for your head.


So,
setting the peep sight position on the bowstring,
helps you do both of these things.


Keep your head level (zero forward tilt, and zero backward tilt).

RAISE the release hand up or down,
(do NOT tilt your head to see THROUGH the peep sight)
ONLY RAISE YOUR RELEASE HAND so you can CENTER the peep sight
and CENTER the round plastic ring around your pins (pin guard).

If you CANNOT SEE the bottom part of the round plastic ring around your pins...

RAISE YOUR RELEASE HAND,
*and do not tilt your head down to see the entire round plastic ring around your pins*...

when you cannot see the bottom part of your sight ring around the pins.

KEEP YOUR NECK FROZEN SOLID,
so NEVER TILT your head forward or backward,
to "see through your peep sight".

Ok.

So,
you RAISE or LOWER your release hand...
so...

the NOCK is sliding UP your face so you can see through the peep sight...

or

the NOCK is sliding DOWN your face so you can see through the peep sight...

you have ADJUSTED where the nock lands on the side of your face,
so you can see through the peep sight,
WHILE YOUR NECK WAS FROZEN SOLID (no tilting your head forwards or backwards...zero neck bending)

and..

now,
you have to ask your self...

is this a comfortable position for the nock to land on your face?

If the answer is no...

if the answer is you do not have any facial anchor touch points....

then,
MOVE the peep to a different location on the bowstring,
and

RAISE THE NOCK touching position on the side of your face
or
LOWER THE NOCK touching position on the side of your face...

WHILE your NECK is frozen (zero bending of the neck).


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Peep Sight Position is final, now off to adjust the Pin Sight*



Madlaz said:


> Nuts And Bolts could you possibly show a close up off the high and low wrist positions wich are correct and wich are not .Also would you explain the step by steps on how to set up a hunting sight from peep set up to the finished product for the absolute beginner in setting up a sight thanks a lot Laz.


Hello Laz:

1) Install the sight mount (usually two screws)

2) Look in your owner's manual, and move all the pins so the ends are dead center,
and form a vertical line.




























You want your holographic dots

or

you want your vertical pins

or

you want your horizontal pins...

all dead center.


Ok...
all your pins are now dead center,
and
form a vertical line splitting the pin guard (round plastic/metal ring)
into two half circles.


Now,
IF YOU WANT the top pin, to be a 20 yard pin...

go find a target at the practice range that is 20 yards away from the shooting line.

FIRST we adjust the ARROW REST, when shooting at any distance longer than point blank range.

Fire a group of say 3 arrows at the 20 yard bullseye at the practice range.

ARROWS ARE ALL missing to the left...(the amount of sideways miss is not important...just, we observe that ALL the arrows are missing LEFT).

FIX: MOVE the ARROW REST...a tiny amount to the RIGHT.

Fire another group of arrows at the 20 yards bullseye.

Now,
ALL the arrows are missing to the right.

FIX: MOVE the ARROW REST...an even SMALLER amount to the LEFT.

Keep adjusting the ARROW REST, when shooting your arrow groups at the 20 yard target,
UNTIL ALL your arrows are centered around the bullseye.

(WE are ONLY fixing the horizontal position of the arrow group).

OK..

The ARROW GROUP is CENTERED horizontally on the bullseye...

BUT...

let's say the ARROW GROUP is centered horizontally,
however...

the arrow group is also 3-inches on the LOW SIDE.

Look into your OWNER's MANUAL,
and figure out how to move the 20 yard pin (your TOP PIN)
in the DOWN DIRECTION...a tiny bit.

Ok..

You moved the TOP PIN in the DOWN DIRECTION,
and
you fired a group of 3 arrows
and...

the arrow group is STILL CENTERED horizontally,
BUT...

now,
the 3 arrows are ALL HITTING HIGH,
i.e., your arrows are now hitting ABOVE the 20 yard bullseye.

Sooooo,
we have to move the 20 yard pin in the UP DIRECTION,
but you must move the 20 yard pin in the UP DIRECTION a very very, tiny amount.


Repeat these steps for ALL of your pins.



Ok.

You have adjusted the UP-DOWN adjustments for ALL your pins.


NOPE.


NOT DONE YET.

Now,
go to a target,
and fold a piece of paper in half,
and pin the piece of paper to the target bale
so that the edge of the piece of paper is DEAD VERTICAL.

Now,
step by back to 6 feet,
and fire a field point arrow
at the vertical edge of paper.

Use any pin you like.










Your goal is to make a perfect arrow hole,
with HALF the arrow hole off the vertical edge
and
HALF the arrow hole on the vertical edge of paper.

ADJUST YOUR GANG WINDAGE (move the ENTIRE ROUND plastic/metal ring and ALL the pins) to the left or right,
until you can get the arrow hole centered on top of the vertical edge of paper.

Keep tweaking the GANG WINDAGE (horizontal adjustment for ALL the pins),
until you get a perfect hole, when shooting at 6 FEET.


LONG RANGE...adjust your arrow rest, to get the arrow group centered on the bullseye.
POINT BLANK RANGE...(reallyl really short shooting distance, like 6 feet)...adjust the GANG WINDAGE on your sight (pins ALWAYS remain centered).

ADJUST PINS UP the CENTER, when you miss above the bullseye.
ADJUST PINS DOWN the CENTER, when you miss low below the bullseye.


----------



## Madlaz

Thanks a lot Alan trying to learn all i can I have pro shops close to me that dont know crap if its not their brand of bow unless you bought it from them even them i have my doubts is there really a difference in tuning a hunting bow and a target bow it should be the same or close but not according to them.If its not a hunting bow they do not like to tune them I just dont know why they both shoot off a string and shoot arrows .


----------



## mongopino915

Hello Nuts and Bolts,

Just bought a Hoyt Vulcan and trying to bare shaft tune. Arrow rest is 90 degrees through the berger hole, limb bolts bottom out, ATA, BH, DW and DL are correct. Tiller distances are the same. Both top and bottom thingys are synchronized. Bare shaft is hitting knock point high. I read your post on bare shaft tuning and it makes sense about my top thingy reeling the string faster than the bottom thingy. My question is, if I remove twist(s) from the top thingy peg to match the string reeling to that of the bottom thingy, does that make my top and bottom thingys no longer synchronized? Also, can I achieve the same thing by loosening the the top limb bolt? To get the arrow knock to be horizontal I would have to lower the d-loop about 1/4". Thanks in ADVANCE.


----------



## nuts&bolts

mongopino915 said:


> Hello Nuts and Bolts,
> 
> Just bought a Hoyt Vulcan and trying to bare shaft tune. Arrow rest is 90 degrees through the berger hole, limb bolts bottom out, ATA, BH, DW and DL are correct. Tiller distances are the same. Both top and bottom thingys are synchronized. Bare shaft is hitting knock point high. I read your post on bare shaft tuning and it makes sense about my top thingy reeling the string faster than the bottom thingy. My question is, if I remove twist(s) from the top thingy peg to match the string reeling to that of the bottom thingy, does that make my top and bottom thingys no longer synchronized? Also, can I achieve the same thing by loosening the the top limb bolt? To get the arrow knock to be horizontal I would have to lower the d-loop about 1/4". Thanks in ADVANCE.


Several ways to approach this.

We always ASSUME that maxing BOTH limb bolts,
will give us EQUAL limb pressure,
cuz we ASSUME that the TOP and BOTTOM limbs are a perfect match in strength.

Well,
since we have BOTH limb bolts maxed out...

and
since we have synchronized cams...

and

since we have the bareshaft travelling NOCK HIGH...

clearly,
the top metal thingy is reeling in string a bit faster
than,
the bottom metal thingy.

EASIEST thing to to,
is try 1/8th turn LESS on the top limb bolt,
and see if that helps.

If 1/8th turn LESS is not enough,
then...

try 1/4 turn TOTAL less than max on the top limb bolt.

Then,
try 3/8ths turn TOTAL less than max on the top limb bolt.

Keep tweaking the top limb bolt LIGHTER and LIGHTER...

until you get level bareshaft flight.


Synchronized cams...only works,
when you have MATCHED limb strength.

So,
synchronized cams are only a starting point, and only a tool, and not the goal.

LEVEL bareshaft flight,
SHOULD get you tighter arrow groups,
which is the ultimate goal.


----------



## bo-w

i find it pretty cool that someone with as much knowlage as N&B is willing to share and help all of us and put in the effort required to post all of this information for us with nothing to gain except knowing that he is helping fellow archers ... here's to mr. N&B :thumbs_upcheers:darkbeer:


----------



## T-mo

Nuts and Bolts, I really love your teaching style, KISS princible. I'm asking if you could be so kind and discuss arrows. What they mean by spine, how it's determined, FOC and any other information. Thanks so much, you have taught this old soldier a lot already.


----------



## mrhornet

Thanks for the great Info. Just getting back into the sport after over 10 years. Boy has a lot changed. This post has really helped bring me up to speed on thing.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*What does Arrow Spine mean*



T-mo said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I really love your teaching style, KISS princible. I'm asking if you could be so kind and discuss arrows. What they mean by spine, how it's determined, FOC and any other information. Thanks so much, you have taught this old soldier a lot already.


Hello T-mo:

Soooo much lingo, when it comes to arrows,
sooooo many choices...

but, when you finally have your bow tuned,
when you finally have selected the "proper" arrow for YOU,
and
when you point your bow, and the arrow goes where YOU want...

ahhhhhhh.


So,
the goal is to find a perfect match,
between the power generated by your bow
getting the arrow rest pointed in the correct direction
and
finding the "proper" arrow to match the horsepower for your bow.

Not talking horsepower rating (IBO ratings)..

but,
talking real world horsepower,
AFTER you have the bow adjusted to work for YOU.


So,
the limb bolts may be a bit less than maximum,
cuz it tunes the best this way.

So,
the arrow rest has been tweaked up and down (a skosh)
and
the arrow rest has been tweaked left and right (a skosh).

You have tweaked the twists in the cables (maybe a little more...maybe a little less),
and the top metal thingy and the bottom metal thingy
are all at the "correct for YOU" starting rotation positions....

then,
we try and find the best arrow for YOUR setup.


*SPINE RATING*

Spine Rating is simply the STIFFNESS rating for the arrow.

Aluminum arrows are rated by outside diameter

***----19XX series, so could be a Easton 1916 arrow.

This means that the aluminum arrow has a 19/64ths outside diameter
and
the aluminum tubing thickness is 16/1000ths.

Now,
if we are talking the brand new "logs" that Easton is selling,
then,
we are talking the ...

***---27XX series, so this is the Easton 2712 arrow.

This means that the aluminum arrow has a 27/64ths outside diameter.
Folks, this is ALMOST 7/16ths in diameter!

The Easton 2712 aluminum arrow has an aluminum wall thickness = 12/1000ths.


So,
generally speaking...

when the outside diameter of a tube gets LARGER,
then....

the stiffness of the arrow also gets MORE STIFF.

All arrow companies use a stiffness testing machine,
with a standard weight
and
with the supports separated 28-inches apart..
and
the test weight = 1.94 lbs


so,
lets say we are talking about an Easton FatBoy 400 carbon arrow.

The "400" is the SPINE RATING,
and all this means...

is that the Easton FatBoy BENDS 0.400 inches in the stiffness testing machine.


If we are talking the Easton Axis 340 carbon arrow,
then...this hunting arrow bends 0.340 inches in the stiffness testing machine.

So,
when the amount of bending is LESS,
we have a STIFFER ARROW.


Now,
these are just STIFFNESS RATINGS,
and....

a STIFFNESS RATING is not the same,
as the ACTUAL STIFFNES, after you cut the arrow.

A GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow, is just the model name.

*A GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow does NOT mean this is for a 75 lb to 95 lb draw weight bow.*

A GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow has a STIFFNESS RATING of 0.340 inches,
so.....this arrow BENDS 0.340 inches in the stiffness testing machine.


So,
what about ACTUAL STIFFNESS?

Well,
if you take a GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow, 
and you cut the carbon tube down to 25-inches,
for a shorter draw length shooter....

you have a CRAZY STIFF arrow, and I could nearly use it as re-bar for reinforced concrete. This would be a very short building, but you get the idea.


Now,
the GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow comes in 32-inches uncut.

So,
if you have a long draw hunter,
and they use the GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 full length, at 32-inches....

you can see how the 32-inch full length arrow has an ACTUAL STIFFNESS
which is much less...

than the 25-inch long GoldTip XT Hunter 7595 arrow.


The LENGTH of the arrow changes the actual stiffness of the arrow.


So if we are talking a particular arrow....GoldTip XT Hunter 7595

LONGER arrow tube length makes this arrow shaft LESS STIFF.
SHORTER arrow tube length makes this arrow shaft MORE STIFF.

HEAVIER broadhead makes this arrow behave LESS STIFF.
LIGHTER broadhead makes this arrow behave MORE STIFF.

LIGHTER WEIGHT feathers, makes this arrow behave LESS STIFF.
LONGER, HEAVIER VANES makes this arrow behave MORE STIFF.

NO ARROW WRAP makes this arrow behave LESS STIFF.
ADDING A ARROW WRAP makes this arrow behave MORE STIFF.

STANDARD NOCK makes this arrow behave LESS STIFF.
USING A LIGHTED NOCK (these are heavy) makes this arrow behave MORE STIFF.


A MORE STIFF arrow, needs HIGHER draw weight, to make the arrow perform at its best.

A LESS STIFF arrow, needs a LOWER draw weight, to make the arrow perform at its best.


Luckily,
there are computer software programs,
that can help you figure out this stuff,
and
so you can save money and buy your arrows only one time,
and
have your arrows cut to the "correct" length to get the stiffness just right,
to work with YOUR broadheads.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Arrow Spine Testing Machine and what it looks like*



T-mo said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I really love your teaching style, KISS princible. I'm asking if you could be so kind and discuss arrows. What they mean by spine, how it's determined, FOC and any other information. Thanks so much, you have taught this old soldier a lot already.


The arrow spine testing machine
has two support, 28-inches apart.

The test weight = 1.94 lbs (not sure how and why this weight).

RAM makes a nice testing machine, but it rather pricey.











The dial indicator reads bending accurate to 0.0005 inches (5/10,000ths).


----------



## CEC81561

Bowtech cdr, thanks for the last download you did on info from this sight! Do you plan on updating with the latest info since you compiled
the last download files, all this info has been great! ThAnks again to you and to nutsn'bolts !! You guys rock


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Arrow Front of Center (FOC) Balance, and why should we care?*



T-mo said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I really love your teaching style, KISS princible. I'm asking if you could be so kind and discuss arrows. What they mean by spine, how it's determined, FOC and any other information. Thanks so much, you have taught this old soldier a lot already.


Hello T-mo:

FOC (arrow front of center balance)...

will have a "best for you" depending on what kind of shooting you do.


If you take a rock,
and tie a long string,
so that the long string acts as a tail


and

you spin it around and around (holding the end of the tail of the string)
and let go...

the rock ALWAYS leads during flight,
and
the string ALWAYS follows behind the rock.


Same with a BROADHEAD and a lightweight arrow tube.

For anything that GLIDES through the arrow (no rocket motors in back or front)...
we NEED the heavier part of the arrow in FRONT of the middle of the unguided, zero motor missle (projectile).

Gotta have a FRONT HEAVIER balance point.

FRONT HALF of the unguided missle, zero motor missle will ALWAYS LEAD during flight.


So,
the HEAVIER we make the FRONT HALF of our arrow,
the more directionally stable,
our arrow will be.

We aim it. It hits where we want it.

MORE is BETTER?

Only up to a point.

If we make the FRONT HALF of the arrow TOO HEAVY,
it will drop like a rock, and not go very far.

So,
we have to find a BALANCE.....(hehehehe).

If we are shooting a broadhead,
somewhere around the 15% FOC range is quite nice.

Could be 16%, could be 17% and you are still just fine.

FOC is kinda a side effect
of picking the TOTAL PACKAGE STIFFNESS,
which is much more important
to getting your broadhead arrows to tune well for you.

Broadheads come 75 grain, 90 grain, 100 grain or 125 grain and sometimes heavier.

So,
based on what broadhead you happen to have....

then,
you go to that computer software,
and select your favorite arrow shaft company

and

you see that the arrows only come 400 spine rating (0.400 inch bending)
or come 340 spine rating (0.340 inch bending)
or come 300 spine rating (0.300 inch bending)
for most hunting arrows.

So,
you pick a stiff rating for your hunting setup,
and
then you ask the computer software program...

how long should you cut the arrow tube,
to match up with the POWER generated by your hunting setup.


IF the correct arrow tube length is SHORTER than your draw length...

start again on the computer software program,
and
select the NEXT STIFFER arrow rating (LOWER NUMBER)
and

try again,
to figure out what arrow tube length you need,
to work with the broadheads YOU HAVE
and
to work with the POWER from your bow setup (draw weight and draw length).


So,
back to FOC.

How to figure out FOC?


Take a pencil and put it on the table.

Balance your arrow on top of the pencil.

Let's say the "ARROW LENGTH" is 30-inches.

Now,
folks disagree on how to measure "ARROW LENGTH",
but...

Easton says that the "ARROW LENGTH"
is from the bottom of the nock groove...

to

the end of the ARROW TUBE.

Sooo, arrow length does NOT include the field point length..
sooo, arrow length does NOT include the broadhead length..
sooo, arrow length does NOT include the tiny bit of the insert sticking out...


Soooo,
let's say we have an "ARROW LENGTH" = 30-inches

Now,
the "MIDDLE" of the arrow is 15-inches away from the end of the arrow tube
or
you could say the "MIDDLE" of the arrow is 15-inches away from the nock groove.


Now,
find the balance point.

Let's say the BALANCE POINT is exactly 4.5-inches away from the "MIDDLE" of the arrow.

4.5-inches (balance point to the middle of the arrow)
30-inches (end of tube to nock groove on the arrow)

4.5-inches divided into 30-inches give us a 15 PERCENT FOC.


This picture of how to figure out FOC comes from the Easton Tuning Guide.


----------



## CHobbs

I may have missed it earlier in the thread.........
Did anyone talk about mounting the sights closer or farther from the bow. My Spott Hoggs have 3 sets of mounting holes to use, one so the sights are closer to the bow, one so the sights are farthest from the bow, and of course the middle mounting holes. 
I know that the farther away the sights are, the smaller the pins appear but with a faster moving sight picture. The closer the sights are to the shooter, the larger the picture and a smoother floating sight picture. I think I got those right.
Also these changes will affect the perceived size of the sight ring through the peep.
Are these more of a personal setting.....I have noticed more professional target shooters shooting with a longer sight(sight is farther away from the bow/shooter).
What advantages/disadvantages will I see from choosing different mounting holes??

I would greatly appreciate any input


----------



## T-mo

Nuts&Bolts
Thank you for the class, you must be an engineer.


----------



## BowTechCDR

CEC81561 said:


> Bowtech cdr, thanks for the last download you did on info from this sight! Do you plan on updating with the latest info since you compiled
> the last download files, all this info has been great! ThAnks again to you and to nutsn'bolts !! You guys rock


Absolutely. Unfortunately, I don't have word at home so I have to "sneak" some time here and there at work. I will get it done and send it out.


----------



## Late-Bloomer

bo-w said:


> i find it pretty cool that someone with as much knowlage as N&B is willing to share and help all of us and put in the effort required to post all of this information for us with nothing to gain except knowing that he is helping fellow archers ... here's to mr. N&B :thumbs_upcheers:darkbeer:




++++++++1
As a NOOB I'm sopping it all up like a sponge!

Allan, thank you for your WEALTH of SUPPORT to all of us here!!!

May God richly bless you!!!

Aloha brother!

Ro-Ro


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Pin Gap Spacing and Distance between your eyeball and your pins on your sight.*



CHobbs said:


> I may have missed it earlier in the thread.........
> Did anyone talk about mounting the sights closer or farther from the bow. My Spott Hoggs have 3 sets of mounting holes to use, one so the sights are closer to the bow, one so the sights are farthest from the bow, and of course the middle mounting holes.
> I know that the farther away the sights are, the smaller the pins appear but with a faster moving sight picture. The closer the sights are to the shooter, the larger the picture and a smoother floating sight picture. I think I got those right.
> Also these changes will affect the perceived size of the sight ring through the peep.
> Are these more of a personal setting.....I have noticed more professional target shooters shooting with a longer sight(sight is farther away from the bow/shooter).
> What advantages/disadvantages will I see from choosing different mounting holes??
> 
> I would greatly appreciate any input


Hello CHobbs:

When you move your Spot Hogg to the maximum distance away from your face...

the round pin guard appears smaller through your peep sight,
and
so you will see MORE daylight around the outside edge of pin guard.

Another side effect,
will be that your pin gaps grow larger...

the space between your 20 yard pin and your 30 yard pin GROWS...
the space between your 30 yard pin and your 40 yard pin also GROWS...

some folks feel with a WIDER pin gap spacing,
that they can shoot more accurately.


----------



## CHobbs

Thanks Nuts & Bolts,
I guess it's time to go out and experiment and see what feel suits me the best!


----------



## Madlaz

I cant thank Nuts and Bolts and Tim for making this thread the most informative ever for newbie or for the expert this should be given out in every archery manual to help out with easy understanding do it yourself tuning guide and how a bow should work if proprly tuned or even close .


----------



## ballison90

I may or may not have missed it, but did anyone discuss string making, what the proper methods are, serving correctly etc?


----------



## nuts&bolts

*String Making Threads with pictures*



ballison90 said:


> I may or may not have missed it, but did anyone discuss string making, what the proper methods are, serving correctly etc?


Hello ballison90:

Here are some EXCELLENT picture threads,
with step by step instructions for making strings.

Classic Picture thread by Stringmaker.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=60235&referrerid=22477



Another classic picture thread, by AKDoug
"My 9 y.o. makes his first string".

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=239063&referrerid=22477



Another picture thread by NP Archery,
where he makes a 3 color string. Pictures jump around from post to post,
but the pictures kinda start around Post #40.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1190752&referrerid=22477


----------



## MissAlaLogBuyer

nuts & bolts,

thank you for all you are doing here this thread has a wealth of knowledge!

But back to something simple. It could be here and i mite not have seen it but maybe you could discuss the techniques involved in properly pressing a bow? Alot has been covered here and alot of these methods must be implemented using a press and i have not seen this covered. 

Thanks again!


----------



## nuts&bolts

MissAlaLogBuyer said:


> nuts & bolts,
> 
> thank you for all you are doing here this thread has a wealth of knowledge!
> 
> But back to something simple. It could be here and i mite not have seen it but maybe you could discuss the techniques involved in properly pressing a bow? Alot has been covered here and alot of these methods must be implemented using a press and i have not seen this covered.
> 
> Thanks again!


Hello Matt:

The riser of your bow,
is the most precise, most expensive to manufacture
part of your bow. The riser is dead straight,
the riser has zero twist, and the limb pockets
are exactly at the correct angle and distance
from each other.

So,
with portable bow presses,
(Bowmaster or Ratchet Loc),
the hard parts (metal) only touch the limbs
and
the limbs are the only thing bent,
during the pressing process.

Then,
you have the trailer jack style presses, with the metal fingers.

These "linear" presses also only push on the limb tips.


Finally,
you have the old style T-BAR presses with the huge rubber boat rollers,
where the boat rollers push on the ends of the riser. I prefer to
use the other newer style bow presses,
which ONLY have contact with the limbs
and
have ZERO contact with the riser.


I use the portable Ratchet Loc bow press a lot,
cuz it is so portable, and I always have it at home.

At the indoor range,
I have a Ultra Press, which is a telescoping tubing press,
with the metal arms and 4 skinny metal pins (rubber tubing over the pins).

Two pins trap the top limb and two pins trap the bottom limb,
and
when you pump the hydraulic jack, it pushes up on the metal cable,
and the two arms pivot up like a draw bridge. 


I built a $20 bow press, using a Pipe Clamp, and "wooden" fingers.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=965870&referrerid=22477












When I am at the indoor range, I use this press all the time.
3/4-inch black gas pipe is cheap, so I can press short bow and really really long ATA bows.

If you are pressing at the tips of the limbs,
then no need to take turns off the limb bolts,
cuz pushing on the tips of the limbs is the same action
as pulling your bow string.

Besides, if you are using a bow press that ONLY pushes on the limb tips
(like the $20.00 bow press made from a pipe clamp)...

then,
you only need to compress the limb tips 1/2-inch or less,
to get the string and cables loose.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone!

I just downloaded posts 106-216 to a working word document. I will begin editing it tomorrow and may have the 'update' done by the end of the day Sunday.

There is A LOT of information in these posts and I will get it done as soon as possible.

Again, send me a pm with your email address if you want a copy of "The Nuts & Bolts of Archery: A Guide to Tuning and Shooting Compound Bows".

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

I complete the update (the best I could, anyway) about an hour ago and began sending it to everyone on my email list.

I received quite a few delivery error messages indicating the file was too large for some email servers. If you wanted a copy and did not get one, please pm me and let me know. We will need to figure out another way to get it to you.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hello fellow ATers!!!! I hope everyone's day is going swimmingly.

Anyway,
I am not able to convert the guide into a .pdf format because I don't have full Adobe. If there is anyone that can convert the guide into .pdf from .doc (or .docx), please let me know if you would be interested in doing so for me so I can get it out to those that don't have Word capability.

Please let me know.

Thanks in advance for your help!

-Tim


----------



## ballison90

Tim, you have an e-mail, it contains a PDF version of the guide.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks Brandon!


----------



## bfoot

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Laz:
> 
> 1) Install the sight mount (usually two screws)
> 
> 2) Look in your owner's manual, and move all the pins so the ends are dead center,
> and form a vertical line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want your holographic dots
> 
> or
> 
> you want your vertical pins
> 
> or
> 
> you want your horizontal pins...
> 
> all dead center.
> 
> 
> Ok...
> all your pins are now dead center,
> and
> form a vertical line splitting the pin guard (round plastic/metal ring)
> into two half circles.
> 
> 
> Now,
> IF YOU WANT the top pin, to be a 20 yard pin...
> 
> go find a target at the practice range that is 20 yards away from the shooting line.
> 
> FIRST we adjust the ARROW REST, when shooting at any distance longer than point blank range.
> 
> Fire a group of say 3 arrows at the 20 yard bullseye at the practice range.
> 
> ARROWS ARE ALL missing to the left...(the amount of sideways miss is not important...just, we observe that ALL the arrows are missing LEFT).
> 
> FIX: MOVE the ARROW REST...a tiny amount to the RIGHT.
> 
> Fire another group of arrows at the 20 yards bullseye.
> 
> Now,
> ALL the arrows are missing to the right.
> 
> FIX: MOVE the ARROW REST...an even SMALLER amount to the LEFT.
> 
> Keep adjusting the ARROW REST, when shooting your arrow groups at the 20 yard target,
> UNTIL ALL your arrows are centered around the bullseye.
> 
> (WE are ONLY fixing the horizontal position of the arrow group).
> 
> OK..
> 
> The ARROW GROUP is CENTERED horizontally on the bullseye...
> 
> BUT...
> 
> let's say the ARROW GROUP is centered horizontally,
> however...
> 
> the arrow group is also 3-inches on the LOW SIDE.
> 
> Look into your OWNER's MANUAL,
> and figure out how to move the 20 yard pin (your TOP PIN)
> in the DOWN DIRECTION...a tiny bit.
> 
> Ok..
> 
> You moved the TOP PIN in the DOWN DIRECTION,
> and
> you fired a group of 3 arrows
> and...
> 
> the arrow group is STILL CENTERED horizontally,
> BUT...
> 
> now,
> the 3 arrows are ALL HITTING HIGH,
> i.e., your arrows are now hitting ABOVE the 20 yard bullseye.
> 
> Sooooo,
> we have to move the 20 yard pin in the UP DIRECTION,
> but you must move the 20 yard pin in the UP DIRECTION a very very, tiny amount.
> 
> 
> Repeat these steps for ALL of your pins.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.
> 
> You have adjusted the UP-DOWN adjustments for ALL your pins.
> 
> 
> NOPE.
> 
> 
> NOT DONE YET.
> 
> Now,
> go to a target,
> and fold a piece of paper in half,
> and pin the piece of paper to the target bale
> so that the edge of the piece of paper is DEAD VERTICAL.
> 
> Now,
> step by back to 6 feet,
> and fire a field point arrow
> at the vertical edge of paper.
> 
> Use any pin you like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your goal is to make a perfect arrow hole,
> with HALF the arrow hole off the vertical edge
> and
> HALF the arrow hole on the vertical edge of paper.
> 
> ADJUST YOUR GANG WINDAGE (move the ENTIRE ROUND plastic/metal ring and ALL the pins) to the left or right,
> until you can get the arrow hole centered on top of the vertical edge of paper.
> 
> Keep tweaking the GANG WINDAGE (horizontal adjustment for ALL the pins),
> until you get a perfect hole, when shooting at 6 FEET.
> 
> 
> LONG RANGE...adjust your arrow rest, to get the arrow group centered on the bullseye.
> POINT BLANK RANGE...(reallyl really short shooting distance, like 6 feet)...adjust the GANG WINDAGE on your sight (pins ALWAYS remain centered).
> 
> ADJUST PINS UP the CENTER, when you miss above the bullseye.
> ADJUST PINS DOWN the CENTER, when you miss low below the bullseye.



Can this be right?

This information just blows my mind. I have been shooting for two years and have never moved my rest except as recommended in the owner's manual,i.e. 7/8 - 15/16 high and same amount out). So, I have always sighted in by moving my gang adjustment horizontally and vertically at 20yd. then backed up to 30,40 etc and moved the pins. Always frustrated as why the arrows would behave differently at different ranges, that is dead on at 20, left misses at 30, etc. Also frustrated by running out of room to adjust either vertical or horizontal.

I have read all I could and I have never seen this information. I am going to start completely over setting up my bow tomorrow and see if I get better results.

Bob


----------



## nuts&bolts

bfoot said:


> Can this be right?
> 
> This information just blows my mind. I have been shooting for two years and have never moved my rest except as recommended in the owner's manual,i.e. 7/8 - 15/16 high and same amount out). So, I have always sighted in by moving my gang adjustment horizontally and vertically at 20yd. then backed up to 30,40 etc and moved the pins. Always frustrated as why the arrows would behave differently at different ranges, that is dead on at 20, left misses at 30, etc. Also frustrated by running out of room to adjust either vertical or horizontal.
> 
> I have read all I could and I have never seen this information. I am going to start completely over setting up my bow tomorrow and see if I get better results.
> 
> Bob


Hello Bob:

Yup,
this is why you have been "chasing" your pins,
at all kinds of yardages.

The arrow rest is like the steering wheel on your car.
You could say tweaking the arrow rest is like a "front end alignment", after you get new tires (new arrows).

When you drive slow, you may not notice that the front end alignment is off.

When you drive highway speeds, then a tiny mis-alignment in the front end of your car, causes the car to drift out of your lane.


Same with the arrow rest.
Shoot 20 yards,
and you may not notice that the 3 arrow group is slightly off to the left of center.

So,
try 30 yards, if you can get a repeatable group size,
the arrows all hit the same group size,
and all your arrow groups might be centered say 2-inches LEFT of the target bullseye.

So,
we want the arrow group to move a skosh to the right,
so....

we tweak the "steering" (actually the arrow rest, say 1/32nd inch...just a tiny nudge)
a little to the right,
and
we shoot the 3 arrow group at that comfy longer distance,
and see if we can get the 3 arrow group CENTERED on the bullseye.

Might take a couple of tries,
making tiny itsy bitsy nudges to the arrow rest (skosh right...maybe a skosh left)
and
then....

the longer range distance (any distance you are comfy with)
arrow groups are now CENTERED on top of the bullseye.


Now,
we double check the gang windage setting (horizontal adjustment for ALL your pins)
at point blank range.

Piece of duct tape works.
Fold a piece of paper in half works.

Just get a nice vertical edge
and pin the piece of paper or duct tape to your target,
step back 6 feet or so....

and fire a field point arrow.

You want half the arrow diameter on the piece of paper
and
you want half the arrow diameter off the vertical edge of paper.

You are going to make teeny tiny windage adjustments to all your pins,
even if you are only shooting the top pin,
at a distance of 6 feet.

Just takes a couple of tries
to get the gang windage of all your pins just perfect.



This procedure is my MODIFIED version of
a tuning method called FRENCH TUNING.

You can look up classic French Tuning on John Dudley's website.
Classic French Tuning tries to adjust horizontal AND vertical adjustments,
and
requires shooting at 3 yards and 60 yards.

My version ONLY takes care of horizontal adjustments
and
is much much easier to do.


----------



## ItchyBro

This is good stuff! I have read most of the posts off and on since it began but have a question that I don't think has been answered directly. I have a set of new strings for my bow that I will be installing and have measured the ATA, brace height, peep from nock point, speed it shooting as set up. The cam timing looks good as does brace height but the ATA is about an 1/8" too high. So my question is what effect does having an ATA too low or too high have on preformance? 

Right now I am shooting a 499gr 29.5" arrow an average of 266.8 fps out of an 82nd Airborne, 28.5" draw mods and the limbs are not maxed out. I don't have a scale so I'm not sure of the exact draw weight, the limbs are backed off a 1.75 turns.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ItchyBro said:


> This is good stuff! I have read most of the posts off and on since it began but have a question that I don't think has been answered directly. I have a set of new strings for my bow that I will be installing and have measured the ATA, brace height, peep from nock point, speed it shooting as set up. The cam timing looks good as does brace height but the ATA is about an 1/8" too high. So my question is what effect does having an ATA too low or too high have on preformance?
> 
> Right now I am shooting a 499gr 29.5" arrow an average of 266.8 fps out of an 82nd Airborne, 28.5" draw mods and the limbs are not maxed out. I don't have a scale so I'm not sure of the exact draw weight, the limbs are backed off a 1.75 turns.


Hello ItchyBro:

The ATA is a quick method to check how much bending force
you have on the limbs, when the bow is at rest.

So,
if the ATA is say 1/8th inch on the long side,
then you MIGHT not get the full draw weight,
when your limb bolts are at maximum.

Since you don't have your limb bolts at maximum,
then I would not worry about ATA on the long side at 1/8th inch.

Since you are shooting a binary cam system,
then just make sure that you have the cam starting rotation position correct.


Post #64 on Page 2 repeats an original post by Dave Nowlin,
about Binary Cam tuning.


----------



## rdnj2512

Just what I have been looking for forever. Wonderful job! Send "The Nuts & Bolts of Archery: A Guide to Tuning and Shooting Compound Bows" to [email protected]. Thanks, thanks, thanks. Bob


----------



## AKSlinger

Tim,
I would really appreciate a copy. My e-mail address is: [email protected]
Thank you sooooooo much for all of your great work and effort in this. The info is so awesome. Thanks again.

Russ


----------



## IL 88

Most people on AT I take with a heavy grain of salt. However with Nuts&Bolts, I pretty much trust whatever the man has to say.


----------



## WVaBuckHunter

Nuts and Bolts, thank you for all of this great info. If you write a book on this, I will be buying a copy!! I haven't got to read every post word for word,(but trust me I will), but I haven't came across anything about the proper way to tie in a drop away style rest. I have heard so many different methods, i.e. using brass nocks so it can't slide up the cable, using serving so it can't slide up the cable, and even running the cord through the cable. I would like to know the proper method of doing this, and if possible a couple of pics. I know you are a busy man, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

WVaBuckHunter said:


> Nuts and Bolts, thank you for all of this great info. If you write a book on this, I will be buying a copy!! I haven't got to read every post word for word,(but trust me I will), but I haven't came across anything about the proper way to tie in a drop away style rest. I have heard so many different methods, i.e. using brass nocks so it can't slide up the cable, using serving so it can't slide up the cable, and even running the cord through the cable. I would like to know the proper method of doing this, and if possible a couple of pics. I know you are a busy man, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!!


Hello WVaBuckHunter:

Put your bow into a portable bow press and relax the bowstring and cables.

Find the down cable,
and then separate the cable into the two colors (left bundle and right bundle).

Melt a ball on the end of your drop away cord.
D-loop cord works very well.

Slide the end of your drop away cord,
between the two halves of your down cable.

Now,
take the bow out of your portable bow press,
and the two halves of the cable will clamp down on your drop away cord.

You can use a tied nockset above the d-loop cord...
you can use a metal nockset above the d-loop cord...

either one works.

When your bow is at full draw,
the cables are holding a LOT of tension,
so that drop away cord is not going to move.

The metal nockset or the tied nockset (short section of serving)
provide mental confidence,
that your drop away cord is not going to move.


----------



## MysticFlight

I would love a copy of the guide when you get a chance.


----------



## WVaBuckHunter

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello WVaBuckHunter:
> 
> Put your bow into a portable bow press and relax the bowstring and cables.
> 
> Find the down cable,
> and then separate the cable into the two colors (left bundle and right bundle).
> 
> Melt a ball on the end of your drop away cord.
> D-loop cord works very well.
> 
> Slide the end of your drop away cord,
> between the two halves of your down cable.
> 
> Now,
> take the bow out of your portable bow press,
> and the two halves of the cable will clamp down on your drop away cord.
> 
> You can use a tied nockset above the d-loop cord...
> you can use a metal nockset above the d-loop cord...
> 
> either one works.
> 
> When your bow is at full draw,
> the cables are holding a LOT of tension,
> so that drop away cord is not going to move.
> 
> The metal nockset or the tied nockset (short section of serving)
> provide mental confidence,
> that your drop away cord is not going to move.


Thanks for the info!! One thing to add to this question, if you don't mind. What is the correct way to get the right amount of tension on the cord of the drop away rest? Thanks again for sharing all of this great information!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

WVaBuckHunter said:


> Thanks for the info!! One thing to add to this question, if you don't mind. What is the correct way to get the right amount of tension on the cord of the drop away rest? Thanks again for sharing all of this great information!!


I like to use a draw board,
so I can slowly get to full draw,
and watch when the drop away arrow rest just gets to the full up position.

So,
get the bow to full draw in your draw board,
and put a piece of masking tape around the arrow,
just in front of the drop away arrow rest arm.

Now,
start unwinding the winch on your draw board,
and stop unwinding when you FIRST see the drop away arrow rest arm start
to move down.

Now,
measure from the piece of masking tape
to the drop away arrow rest arm.

If the piece of masking tape has moved 1-INCH away from the arrow rest support arm,
this means that the arrow rest support arm has reached the FULL UP POSITION,
1-INCH away from "full draw".

Well,
what if the piece of masking tape is 4-INCHES away from the arrow rest,
when the arrow rest arm just starts to move down.

The arrow rest is not dropping FAST enough,
and the vanes will probably hit the arrow rest arm,
when it passes by.

When the arrow rest arm stays in the UP position TOO LONG,
this means that the drop away cord is locked onto the DOWN CABLE
too close to the arrow rest. Let's say for this example,
you have the drop away cord about 2-inches below the arrow rest,
passing through the down cable.


FIX

So,
put the bow into your portable bow press,
and relax the bowstring and cables...

and pull the drop away cord out of the down cable
and
re-insert the drop away cord INTO the DOWN CABLE
say 1-inch LOWER than before.

Now,
get the bow out of the portable bow press,
and
put the bow back into the draw board.

Get the bow to full draw,
and make sure the piece of masking tape
is around the arrow, just touching the arrow rest arm.

Now,
unwind the winch
and keep going until you FIRST notice
that the drop away arrow rest arm STARTS to move down.

Is the gap between the piece of masking tape
and
the arrow rest arm about 1-inch?

If not,
keep adjusting the position,
where you have the drop away cord passing through
the DOWN CABLE....

until you have the arrow rest arm START to drop down,
when the piece of masking tape is 1-inch away from the arrow rest arm.


ARROW REST arm stays in the UP POSITION too long....move the drop away cord down LOWER through the DOWN CABLE.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Drop Away Arrow Rest Cord*

When you find the "just right" position,
to have the arrow rest drop away cord
pass through your DOWN CABLE....

then,
leave about 1/4-inch past the down cable,
and snip off the extra cord.

Pick at the end, make a "cotton ball",
and use your lighter or a flaming toothpick,
to MELT the "cotton ball" and form a nice molten ball
(just like a d-loop).

Smash the molten ball against the DOWN CABLE
and the molten ball (flattened) will never pop through
your DOWN CABLE.

ADD a metal nock set above the cord
or
add a short length of serving above the cord,
and you are done.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Sooo much good information. 

WHEN you finish that book, please let me know so I can reserve my autographed copy!


Is it possible for the rest to drop too quickly? 

Is "the goal" to have the arrow move </= 1" for proper drop away timing or is 1/2" acceptable (or possible)? Is 1.5" of arrow movement before the rest moves too much?

Thanks.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Sooo much good information.
> 
> WHEN you finish that book, please let me know so I can reserve my autographed copy!
> 
> 
> Is it possible for the rest to drop too quickly?
> 
> Is "the goal" to have the arrow move </= 1" for proper drop away timing or is 1/2" acceptable (or possible)? Is 1.5" of arrow movement before the rest moves too much?
> 
> Thanks.


Depends on the bow IBO speed rating,
and the draw length.

Try to shoot for the arrow rest STARTING to drop,
when the arrow has moved 1-inch away from the full draw position.

Confirm that you are getting ZERO fletch contact.
You can use lipstick on the edges of the vanes
or
you can try the foot powder test (spray the last 6-inches of the arrow and the vanes, and then look for scratches).

IBO speed ratings are getting faster and faster.

If you have a really HIGH IBO speed rating,
and a longer draw length...

you might or might not get fletch contact,
with the arrow rest STARTING to drop at the 1-inch mark.

IF you do NOT get fletch contact with the arrow rest STARTING to drop at the 1-inch mark...
then,
try having the arrow rest START to drop at 1.5-inches away from full draw.

The goal is to get maximum arrow rest support,
with ZERO fletch contact.

Arrow Rest Support STARTING to drop at 1-inch away from full draw,
should work for MOST bows.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Awesome!

Thank you!


----------



## OCD

Increadable thread guys! 
Tim, thank you for the email, and what had to be countless hours of work.
Alan, and everyone that contributed to the amazing " treasure chest" of info, THANK YOU!!!!!
Archerytalk, at it's finest........


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hello everyone!

A suggestion was made (by a non archer looking at the guide I printed for myself) to include a picture of a compound bow with a description of parts early in the guide. Does anyone think it would be helpful? Any reason not to include it?

I was thinking something like one of these:
















Thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## BowTechCDR

A link to a video like this probably wouldn't hurt either.







Thoughts?


----------



## ballison90

sweet video


----------



## ballison90

it cant hurt, kind of like theory of operation sections in avionics manuals


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone!

Thanks for the continued interest. I just sent out another email. If you sent me your email addy in the last few days, you should have your copy now.

If I missed your address, re-send it and I will get you a copy.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

I just sent out copies to everyone that requested them today.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## BackcountryBull

Awesome!!! Thanks for all the help, and compiling the information.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hey everyone,

I just emptied my inbox because it was full. I don't know how long it was full.

If you PMd me your email addy today and did not receive a copy of the guide, please resend the addy and I will get one to you.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## ballison90

If anyone has read some of my posts in the past few days, you would see it is about target panic, I am battling a returning case of it right now. The thread I started has revealed several different ways to beat it. What are the proper ways to beat target panic? one suggestion was to go outside at 40-50 yards, put up the spot for 2 ends, take it down for two ends, and repeat until execution feels the same. I beat my previous case of TP with blank bailing and aiming drills (hold on the spot then let down) Another suggestion was shooting with a blank scope.


----------



## BowTechCDR

I wish I could help you out Brandon. Unfortunately, I have no insight into a cure. I did a bunch of blank target shooting (into my unpainted black hole target; Dick's special) every night just to get used to my release. I also found reciting a mantra like "hit the center; hit the center of the center" to be somewhat helpful to take my mind off the release. I learned that from coach Bernie Pellerite. Well, I learned it from his book anyway.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## ballison90

Tim, I thought you said you couldnt help me!! I will give that a try tomorrow afternoon, sounds like a good idea to take my mind off of TP while shooting. Thanks!


----------



## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> If anyone has read some of my posts in the past few days, you would see it is about target panic, I am battling a returning case of it right now. The thread I started has revealed several different ways to beat it. What are the proper ways to beat target panic? one suggestion was to go outside at 40-50 yards, put up the spot for 2 ends, take it down for two ends, and repeat until execution feels the same. I beat my previous case of TP with blank bailing and aiming drills (hold on the spot then let down) Another suggestion was shooting with a blank scope.


Hello ballison90:

I had target panic really bad. Super HUGE flinch. Looked like I was connected to a lightning rod,
and got hit by a lightning bolt.

I got a used original style Carter EVO release. I set the release really HEAVY.

If you try to anticipate this release,
the EVO (set heavy) will absolutely NOT fire.

The goal with Target Panic training is to re-train your muscle memory.

It can take 1000 steps/tries to learn a NEW habit.

So,
start with a FULL size target face
and shoot from 3 feet. Yes, just 36-inches.

Set up your target, so that the bullseye is at YOUR shoulder height.

This forces you to stand up straight,
forces you to have your bow arm dead level,
and if you are using pins or a scope...

the bullseye is HUGE.

HOLD at full draw for a SLOOOOOW three-count.

After the three-count is finished,
then...

start your process to fire your release (preferably the Carter EVO release).

I like to set my EVO release for a firing pressure of OVER 20 lbs...like 22 lbs or 23 lbs or 24 lbs.

Bow arm is solid and passive (just like a piece of lumber).

Release arm (everything from the wrist to the elbow is relaxed).
All the PULLING tension comes from the upper arm muscles AND the back muscles.

Just pull your elbow straight back FIRMLY, SOLIDLY, AGGRESSIVELY.

Be CONFIDENT in your shot.

You are training your BRAIN to relax, when you see the bullseye,
at a distance of ONLY 3 feet (36-inches).

Your assignment is to HOLD for a slooooow three-count,
and NOT fire the arrow...just stare at that bullseye at 36-inches away,
and you will TRAIN your BRAIN to relax,
that's it OK to see the bullseye,
and NOT FIRE the arrow,
when standing only 36-inches away from a FULL size target face.

Then,
a SOLID, CONFIDENT, pulling motion will fire the EVO release,
and you will land your arrow into the bullseye.

Shoot at this distance of 36-inches DAILY,
in your garage, and do this for 3 solid weeks.

At the end of the 3 weeks,
you will be thoroughly bored out of your mind...

you will think this is NO BIG DEAL...
you will want to move onto the next step...

but it is CRITICAL,
that you finish out the 3 weeks of DAILY shooting...

cuz you are trying to NUMB your brain...
you are trying to NUMB your conscious mind...
you WANT to get so bored out of your mind,
you are going stir crazy.

After 3 weeks of DAILY shooting at 36-inches,
you are ABSOLUTELY convinced,
that you can shoot EVERY arrow into the bullseye at 36-inches,
any day of the week,
any month, anytime, blind-folded, standing on one foot.

NO SWEAT.

Which is EXACTLY the point.

You have trained your brain to no longer freak out/ no longer get nervous/ absolutely convinced
that you are the MASTER of the UNIVERSE, when shooting at a full size target,
at a distance of 36-inches.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*SECOND STEP for Target Panic Training*

ballison90:

Now,
that you are the MASTER of the UNIVERSE,
when it comes to shooting the bullseye at 36-inches,
you can do this no sweat,
you can do this anytime, all the time...

now,
we move to 48-inches.

Yes,
this is PRACTICALLY the same distance,
and before you are even starting...

you are already BORED out of your mind.

No Sweat. You KNOW you can do this.

This is exactly the point.

You boil a lobster SLOOOOOOWLY,
and they stay in the pot.

So,
we RE-TRAIN the BRAIN SLOOOOOOWLY,
and
ALL the lessons you learned at 36-inches,
will Probably Stay Put at 48-inches.


Just to make sure,
you are going to shoot DAILY at 48-inches,
at a full size target,
for a SOLID 3 weeks.

You will HOLD for a slow three-count, at full draw, at anchor...

and

then, after you finish the sloow three-count, you will start your process
to smoothly,
to solidly,
to confidently
PULL your elbow straight back,
to PULL through the shot,
using that Carter EVO release,
and fire that single arrow into the bullseye.

Yes,
train with only 1 arrow,
fire the 1 arrow,
and then put your bow down,
and pull out that single arrow in the bullseye,
at 48-inches...

and then,
start your shot routine,
and get to full draw,
and hold for a slow three-count,
and then...

start your process to fire that 1 arrow.


TRAINING with 1 arrow,
FORCES you to shoot 1 arrow at a time MENTALLY,
FORCES you to not rush (cuz you cannot)
FORCES you to get into a routine (mentally and physically)
and
re-trains your brain for SUCCESS.

Three weeks of daily,
mind numbing,
endless shooting,
at a distance that is relaxing,
is a no-brainer,
and gets you on your way to that 1000 shot threshold.


Work your way up to 5-feet,
and stay at this distance for 3 weeks.

HOURS and HOURS of shooting
at near point-blank distances.

Go 1 foot at a time,
for each 3 week session.

No scoring.
Shoot as many arrows as you can per day.

Time will cure everything.

Spend at least 3 months of this mind-numbing training.

Longer if you need it.


----------



## lunghit

Wow great info. Thanks nuts&bolts for the help and BowtechCDR for the guide!!!!:cheers:


----------



## mshred

cant say enough about how helpful this thread is. thanks nuts&bolts and BowtechCDR.

the photos and instruction showing those with good form were very helpful. do you happen to have any words of wisdom and/or photos for shooting up hill, down hill, and from a treestand?

thanks again!


----------



## nuts&bolts

mshred said:


> cant say enough about how helpful this thread is. thanks nuts&bolts and BowtechCDR.
> 
> the photos and instruction showing those with good form were very helpful. do you happen to have any words of wisdom and/or photos for shooting up hill, down hill, and from a treestand?
> 
> thanks again!


Here is a nice photo of a downhill shot.










Long red arrow is parallel to the long front stabilizer.

Other long red arrow shows that the tops of the shoulders are ALSO parallel to the front stabilizer...arrow.


The tendency is to drop the release side elbow,
so make sure to keep the release elbow nice and high,
and pull through the shot.

Most of the bending is in the mid-chest, just above the stomach.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi Alan,

Regarding Target Panic training: When you say shoot a full target face from 36 inches, are you referring to how far away your left foot (for a right handed shooter) is, or, how far the riser/arrow is from the target? I am guessing you are referring to the front foot and I have been wrong enough times in my life to know it is better to ask.

Thanks!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

I hope everyone that has asked has received a copy of the guide. When you request a copy, please remember to PM me your email address. Without it, I can't send the file.

Thanks!

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Regarding Target Panic training: When you say shoot a full target face from 36 inches, are you referring to how far away your left foot (for a right handed shooter) is, or, how far the riser/arrow is from the target? I am guessing you are referring to the front foot and I have been wrong enough times in my life to know it is better to ask.
> 
> Thanks!


Hello BowTechCDR:

Just like a shooting line.

Some folks straddle the shooting line.
Some folks put the toe of their front foot/shoe behind the shooting line.

Your preference.

Just start using a full size target face (Vegas style or NFAA style or single spot)
and shoot at a point blank shooting distance...

just long enough so that your front stabilizer does not touch the target.

This will be a "comfy" distance,
and your mind will be at ease,
and stay at this shooting distance,
until you re-train your brain,
to the point it becomes mind numbingly boring,
and
when it becomes mind numbingly boring,
keep going and burn it into your brain,
that shooting at 36-inches,
is a no-brainer.

Subconsciously, you will relax.
Your muscles will relax down to the deepest levels (muscle memory).

Whenever you shoot 36-inches,
your body will go.....aaaaaahhhhhh. No sweat.

Then, after a really long long time (say 3 weeks of daily shooting),
we bump up the distance a teeny tiny skosh.

Hardly seems any different.

That's the whole point.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thank you!


----------



## Realtree209

Hello Nuts and Bolts,

I have a question regarding broadhead tuning. Since my broadheads fly almost exactly like my fieldpoints should i skip broadhead tuning and primarily focus on your modified french tuning, or should i get a broadhead that doesn't fly like my fieldpoints and broadhead tune with that particular head?

Thanks for any advice.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Realtree209 said:


> Hello Nuts and Bolts,
> 
> I have a question regarding broadhead tuning. Since my broadheads fly almost exactly like my fieldpoints should i skip broadhead tuning and primarily focus on your modified french tuning, or should i get a broadhead that doesn't fly like my fieldpoints and broadhead tune with that particular head?
> 
> Thanks for any advice.


Use your field point arrows to try out the Modified French Tuning.

Tweak your pins (gang windage setting) when shooting at super close range (say 6 feet).

Shoot a group of arrows at a comfortable for you, convenient, longer range distance (longer the better).
Tweak your arrow rest centershot (horizontal adjustment) in super tiny amounts, until your arrow group is centered on the bullseye.

Go back and double check that at super close range, you can still hit that vertical edge of paper (adjust gang pins windage, if needed).


Now,
shoot your favorite broadhead arrows, and make tiny adjustments, shooting longer range at your broadhead target.
Tweak your arrow rest in super tiny amounts (left-right adjustments....up-down adjustments) to get your best group size.


Your other broadheads...
put them through an arrow spinner device, to confirm that the point of your broadhead spins true.

May need to use a Arrow Squaring Device (G5 Brand or similar) to square up the front end of your arrow shaft (pull the insert...using the drill bit trick)
and then re-install the insert and grind the face of the insert 
and pull the nock, and grind the back end of the arrow shaft square (90 degrees).

After you do these three things,
the point of the broadhead should spin a lot truer.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to Correct Bow Torque (Twisting) and Left-Right Misses with Sight Extension Arm*

With a long target sight extension arm...

you can experiment with different amounts of sight extension arm length
(try 4 cm of extension...try 6 cm of extension...try 8 cm of extension...etc)
and
when you find the "MAGIC" amount of target sight extension amount...

then,
you will see that if you pull HARD into the wall, and twist your riser,
the arrows still group into the gold (bullseye) at long range

and

you will see that if you pull NORMALLY into the wall, 
the arrows still group into the gold.

A RH shooter that pulls really HARD into the wall, at full draw,
will twist the riser, so that the riser rotates slightly in the CLOCK-WISE direction.

Let's say that we have 2 cm of sight arm extension.

Well,
the sight scope dot/circle/pin has moved say 2 mm to the right,
due to riser twisting in the CLOCK-WISE direction,
cuz the shooter is pulling REALLY REALLY HARD into the wall, for this particular shot.

Our sight picture still LOOKS centered,
so we make no adjustment,
we do not notice anything different,
and we fire our 90 meter shot (about 100 yards)
and
we miss off to the right..

say we get a 8 ring shot at 3-o'clock,
instead of the 10 ring or x-ring.


So,
the goal is to extend the sight extension arm more and more...

until,
we notice that the sight scope dot/circle/pin...

is OFF CENTER by the amount that equals
the lateral shift, due to the riser twisting,
when we pull HARD into the wall.

So,
just keep extending the sight extension arm more and more..
and
take say 3 shots pulling NORMALLY into the wall
and
take say 3 shots pulling HARD ino the wall,
while shooting at your maximum long range target shooting distance
(you will really notice the difference at 90 meters).


I have my target sight at MAXIMUM extension right now (about 11-inches of extension)
and
if I pull HARD into the wall,
I end up twisting my riser so much
that I can pull my arrows out of the x-ring (20 yards)
and land in the 9 or 8 ring (left miss at 9-o'clock).

So,
I use this crazy amount of target sight extension,
to force me to pull consistently into the wall (same pulling pressure)...
to force me to pull through the shot with my release elbow lined up DIRECTLY behind the arrow...

and all the arrows land in the x-ring or 10-ring, at 20 yards.

Once the muscle memory is sufficiently burned in..
then,
I will shorten the target sight extension arm length..
to a "more forgiving length"...(as in shorter extension length)

so that a "normal pulling pressure" will hit the x-ring at 20 yards
and
so that a HARDER THAN NORMAL pulling pressure will hit the x-ring at 20 yards.


RH SHOOTER...way too long on the sight extension arm length, will result in a LEFT MISS if the sight extension arm is too long (example = 11-inches)
RH SHOOTER...way too short on the sight extension arm length, will result in a RIGHT MISS if the sight extension arm is too short (tight to the riser)

NOTE: this presumes PROPER FORM, presumes release elbow straight behind the arrow at full draw.


----------



## montigre

*Setting up DL*

Hi Alan,

I have a situation that I’m sure many other target shooters have dealt with---that being in-between draw lengths. My DL is 27.75” (yeah, it’s long for a girl) so my question is this....

When setting up a bow with DL specific cams, is it better performance and draw force wise to twist up the string to shorten the DL and add the lost weight by increasing the limb weight? 

Or go with the next size smaller cam and twist up the cable to get the desired DL? 

I shoot between 43-45#, so I do have some wiggle room with the limbs. Thanks.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Draw Length Specific Cams and In-Between Sizes (adjust DL by 1/4-inch )*



montigre said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> I have a situation that I’m sure many other target shooters have dealt with---that being in-between draw lengths. My DL is 27.75” (yeah, it’s long for a girl) so my question is this....
> 
> When setting up a bow with DL specific cams, is it better performance and draw force wise to twist up the string to shorten the DL and add the lost weight by increasing the limb weight?
> 
> Or go with the next size smaller cam and twist up the cable to get the desired DL?
> 
> I shoot between 43-45#, so I do have some wiggle room with the limbs. Thanks.


Hello montigre:

A draw force curve is measuring the rate the limbs bend,
as you move from at rest to full draw.

So,
the ideal cam rotation position,
has a large effect on the shape of the draw force curve.


To gain a 1/4-inch on the DL (due to draw length specific cams),
it is a simple matter to untwist the bowstring,
in order to get that 1/4-inch gain in DL.


If you make your own bowstring and cables,
then you have lots of options,
with respect to:

a) larger outside diameter end serving will get you slightly more holding weight

b) smaller outside diameter end serving will get you slightly less holding weight

c) lower twist ratio in the cables will allow for finer ATA adjustments

d) if you are using a Hoyt, then experiment with a 10-inch leg length on a floating yoke

and especially....

e) custom bowstring length, to get the draw length setting PERFECT
(lower twist ratio in the bowstring will also allow for finer peep rotation adjustments).


Soooo,
since most of the time,
I hear that folks are experiencing "....draw length runs long..."
when the bow comes fresh out of the factory box...

I would recommend getting the shorter draw length specific cam
(not sure what brand you are using)
and untwisting the bowstring to get that "in-between size" draw length adjustment.

You always also have the option,
to add a half twist to the cables,
and squeeze those limbs a tiny bit more than factory spec,
and gain a tiny bit on the DL...

and

make up the rest of your adjustment,
by untwisting the bowstring.

A little bit of this (cable twsting to increase DL a tiny bit)
and
a little bit of that (bow string untwisting to increase the DL a tiny bit more)...

should get you where you want to be.


----------



## montigre

Thanks, that answered my question, but I'd like a little more information...

I shoot a '09 Hoyt UltraElite with Spiral X cams and the floating yoke legs are currently 8.5" long. What types of effects should I expect to see by increasing the yoke legs to 10"? I don't make my own strings, but I do shoot custom string/cables so playing with different yoke lengths would be relatively easy to do. 

Also, what's the approximate change in holding weight you can accomplish by changing the end serving size? Are we talking pounds or ounces with this? Thanks.


----------



## nuts&bolts

montigre said:


> Thanks, that answered my question, but I'd like a little more information...
> 
> I shoot a '09 Hoyt UltraElite with Spiral X cams and the floating yoke legs are currently 8.5" long. What types of effects should I expect to see by increasing the yoke legs to 10"? I don't make my own strings, but I do shoot custom string/cables so playing with different yoke lengths would be relatively easy to do.
> 
> Also, what's the approximate change in holding weight you can accomplish by changing the end serving size? Are we talking pounds or ounces with this? Thanks.


Hello montigre:

The Spiral X cams are very very nice.

8.5" floating yoke cable legs are just fine.

Fleahop flew all the way from Alabama to spend nearly a week with me for some one-on-one coaching and custom bow tuning. We assembled a ProElite from the ground up,
and I built him a 10" floating yoke cable setup. He also brought along another ProElite and an UltraElite already ready to go. The other bows had floating yokes, but the legs were on the 3-inch range for length.

The longer floating yoke cable legs forms a much tighter "V" angle, and seems to lock down much better than the very short (around 3-inches) floating yoke legs.


So 8.5-inch floating yoke legs or 10-inch floating yoke legs,
are just something to discuss with your favorite bow string maker.



Your Spiral X are running between 55% to 65% for letoff percentage.

You should be able to tweak the letoff percentage,
say by 1% or so, by playing with the end serving diameter
on your cables.

If you want MORE holding weight, then use larger end serving diameter
(build up the end serving).


So,
1% more holding weight on a 43-lb draw weight bow,
works out to about 7 ounces or about 0.43 lbs.

Slightly heavier holding weight,
seems to make for a slightly crisper release action,
assuming that the draw length has been tweaked to 
within a half twist of perfection (bowstring adjustment).


----------



## montigre

Alan,
Thank you for the very clear explanation. I very much appreciate the fact that you're sharing so much knowledge in this thread.


----------



## BowTechCDR

I received a few PMs that did not include email addresses. Please remember to include an email address in your PM so I can send you a copy.

Thanks and I hope you all enjoy the guide!

Tim


----------



## CEC81561

bowtech, & nutsnbolts i want to say if if there was ever an award for most helpful AT'r you guys would get my vote X 100, bowtech will you be doing more add ons as more questions get asked/answered? i'm sure every one would love these and i'm sure we have omly begun to pick nutsnbolts brain on his wealth of knowledge. A great BIG Thanks to Both you guys!!!!!


----------



## sniperjim

*Results of modified French Tuning Method*

Hard work paying off at 20 yds. Thanks Alan - been following this post for a while now.


----------



## nuts&bolts

sniperjim said:


> Hard work paying off at 20 yds. Thanks Alan - been following this post for a while now.
> View attachment 943389


Very nice shooting.


----------



## sniperjim

Thank you, going for 30 yds tomorrow.


----------



## stonecoldkiller

Bump to the top Greatest thread I have seen so far.


----------



## BowTechCDR

CEC81561 said:


> bowtech, & nutsnbolts i want to say if if there was ever an award for most helpful AT'r you guys would get my vote X 100, bowtech will you be doing more add ons as more questions get asked/answered? i'm sure every one would love these and i'm sure we have omly begun to pick nutsnbolts brain on his wealth of knowledge. A great BIG Thanks to Both you guys!!!!!


Hi everyone,

I hope to update when there is enough material. I suppose, in the mean time, I can put together some update pages that will fit somewhere within the current structure. I will let you know!

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## CEC81561

nuts n bolts, thanks again for all the time you have spent answering questions from everyone, wondering how about a glossary of terms/words from A-Z? i know this would be a big undertaking but thought might help some of us. thanks again for your time and hard work!!!!!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

CEC81561 said:


> nuts n bolts, thanks again for all the time you have spent answering questions from everyone, wondering how about a glossary of terms/words from A-Z? i know this would be a big undertaking but thought might help some of us. thanks again for your time and hard work!!!!!!!


EXCELLENT idea.

What terms would you like to see in the Glossary?


----------



## nuts&bolts

CEC81561 said:


> nuts n bolts, thanks again for all the time you have spent answering questions from everyone, wondering how about a glossary of terms/words from A-Z? i know this would be a big undertaking but thought might help some of us. thanks again for your time and hard work!!!!!!!


CEC81561:

Here is a preliminary list of 71 items. Let me know if you think of any I have not covered.

2nd Axis
3rd Axis
Archery Organization - ASA
Archery Organization - FITA
Archery Organization - IBO
Archery Organization - NAA
Archery Organization - NADA
Archery Organization - NFAA
Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Spring Steel
Arrow Rest (Compound with Release)- Blade Launcher
Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Drop Away
Arrow Rest (Compound with Release)- Whisker Biscuit
Arrow Rest (Compound and Recurve with Fingers) - Spingy
Arrow Rest (Recurve with Fingers) - Hoyt Super Rest
Arrow Rest (Recurve with Fingers) - Magnetic
Arrow Wrap
Arrow Straightener
Axle to Axle (ATA)
Back Tension
Berger Hole(s)
Brace Height
Buss Cable
Cam
Cam Adjustment - Advance the Cam
Cam Adjustment - ****** the Cam
Cam System - Bowtech Binary ®
Cam System - Hoyt Cam-1/2 ®
Cam System - Hybrid
Cam System - Single
Cam System - Twin / Dual
Cam Synchronization
Cam Timing
Clinometer
Control Cable
D-Loop
Draw Force Curve
Draw Stop
Fletching - Feathers
Fletching - Spin Wings
Fletching - Vanes
Fletching Tape
Front of Center Balance (FOC)
Hinge Release
Idler Wheel
Limb (Solid)
Limb (Split)
NFAA
Nock (push in style)
Nock Bushing (e.g. Easton unibushing)
Nock Point
Nock Set (Brass)
Nock Set (Tied)
Nock Travel
Peak Draw Weight
Pin Nock
Pin Nock Busihing
Release
Riser
Release - Back Tension
Release - Hinge
Release - Spike
Release - Thumb
Release - Wrist Strap with Single Caliper
Release - Wrist Strap with Dual Caliper
Spine (Dynamic)
Spine (Static)
Tiller
Valley
Wall
Yoke - Split
Yoke - Floating


----------



## Fleahop

4th Axis

The meaning and how efects archery and the everyday shooter??

There is alittle discussion about this but not much.


Thanks Flea


----------



## CEC81561

*Glossary*

Allen, that list looks
great,I'm sure there are things I've overlooked, maybe some of the other AT'rs will think of some also. Thanks. Again!!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Arrow Point (glue in/screw in), Arrow Insert, Grain, Broad head

Things that deal with arrows and their construction, weight, shootability...


----------



## 176"buck

The info you guys are sharing is priceless.So refreshing to see people genuinely trying to help others instead of ripping off their broadhead or bow manuf.I recieved both guides and they are great. Thanks again for your work and knowledge.


----------



## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> CEC81561:
> 
> Here is a preliminary list of 71 items. Let me know if you think of any I have not covered.
> 
> 2nd Axis
> 3rd Axis
> *4th Axis*
> Archery Organization - ASA
> Archery Organization - FITA
> Archery Organization - IBO
> Archery Organization - NAA
> Archery Organization - NADA
> Archery Organization - NFAA
> *Arrow - Aluminum*
> *Arrow - Carbon*
> *Arrow - Carbon with Aluminum Core*
> *Arrow Building - Arrow Saw*
> *Arrow Building - Arrow Spinner*
> *Arrow Building - G5 Arrow Squaring Device ®*
> *Arrow Building - Field Points*
> *Arrow Building - Glue In Target Points*
> *Arrow Building - Glue In Target Point Weight System, e.g. PDP and GoldTip Weights*
> *Arrow Building - Insert*
> *Arrow Building - Zip Strip ®*
> Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Spring Steel
> Arrow Rest (Compound with Release)- Blade Launcher
> Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Drop Away
> Arrow Rest (Compound with Release)- Whisker Biscuit
> Arrow Rest (Compound and Recurve with Fingers) - Springy Arrow Rest
> Arrow Rest (Recurve with Fingers) - Hoyt Super Rest ®
> Arrow Rest (Recurve with Fingers) - Magnetic Arrow Wrap
> Arrow Straightener
> Axle to Axle (ATA)
> Back Tension
> Berger Hole(s)
> Brace Height
> *Broadhead - Fixed Blade*
> *Broadhead - Expandable Blade*
> Buss Cable
> Cam
> Cam Adjustment - Advance the Cam
> Cam Adjustment - ****** the Cam
> Cam System - Bowtech Binary ®
> Cam System - Hoyt Cam-1/2 ®
> Cam System - Hybrid
> Cam System - Single
> Cam System - Twin / Dual
> Cam Synchronization
> Cam Timing
> Clinometer
> Control Cable
> D-Loop
> Draw Force Curve
> Draw Stop
> Fletching - Feathers
> Fletching - Spin Wings
> Fletching - Vanes
> *Fletching Jig - Single Vane Style, e.g. Bitzenburger ®*
> *Fletching Jig - Multi Vane Style, e.g. Arizona EZ-Fletch ®*
> Fletching Tape
> Front of Center Balance (FOC)
> *Grains*
> Hinge Release
> Idler Wheel
> Limb (Solid)
> Limb (Split)
> NFAA
> Nock (push in style)
> Nock Bushing (e.g. Easton unibushing)
> Nock Point
> Nock Set (Brass)
> Nock Set (Tied)
> Nock Travel
> Peak Draw Weight
> Pin Nock
> Pin Nock Busihing
> Release
> Riser
> Release - Back Tension
> Release - Hinge
> Release - Spike
> Release - Thumb
> Release - Wrist Strap with Single Caliper
> Release - Wrist Strap with Dual Caliper
> Spine (Dynamic)
> Spine (Static)
> *Stabilizer - Front Bar*
> *Stabilizer - Offset Knuckle*
> *Stabilizer - Side Rod(s)*
> *Stabilizer - Top Rod*
> *Stabilizer - V Bar*
> *String Suppressor*
> Tiller
> Valley
> Wall
> Yoke - Split
> Yoke - Floating


Additional Items for the Glossary are in *BOLD*.


----------



## CEC81561

Man that looks great! It's like Christmas!! Getting all this for free!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - 2nd axis*

2nd Axis

2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.










For further detail, see Section 7.3 in the "Guide".


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - 3rd axis*

3rd Axis

"Door Swing Angle" where the threaded rod is adjusted to 90 degrees to the arrow flight path. "Door Swing Angle" is very near perfect in this picture.











"Door Swing Angle" in the picture below is not correct.











For further detail, see Section 7.4 in the "Guide".


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - 4th Axis*

4th Axis ®










(Illustration from http://www.archerytech.com)

4th Axis ®would be the movement if you mounted a door hinge under the sight mount. 4th Axis ® (micro adjustable hinge plate for your sight mount) is a commercial product.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - anchor*

Anchor

Facial touch points that serve as a reference for a shooter's release hand position on the side of the shooter's face.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - asa*

Archery Organization - Archery Shooters Association (ASA)

_From the asaarchery.com website..._

About The Archery Shooters Association

Since its inception in 1993 the Archery Shooters Association, headquartered in Kennesaw, Georgia, has hosted tens of thousands of amateur and professional archers from across the United States in national ASA Pro/Am and ASA Federation competitions. The state level organization is known as the ASA Federation, while the national level shoots are known as the McKenzie ASA Pro/Am Tour. The ASA has Federation chapters in 30 states with over 7,000 members and 250 clubs. Features that distinguish ASA Pro/Am and Federation competitions include a standardized set of competition rules; professionally executed shooting ranges; high standards for dress and conduct; safety standards that include a maximum arrow speed standard of 280 feet per second; the copyrighted 12-ring and 14-ring scoring system; and the largest paybacks in competitive archery. 

* ASA 3-D Archery: *

ASA 3-D archery features competitive rounds of 20 lifelike, three-dimensional, animal targets made of foam. The scoring rings are not visible from the shooting stake, and binoculars are allowed. An archer must determine the distance to the target, pick a good aiming point, and execute the shot. The ASA was the first archery organization to implement a speed limit (280 feet per second) for safety and to establish a level playing field for 3-D competition. Beginning in 2007, the ASA will incorporate known distance competition in some amateur classes. 

*ASA Scoring: *

The ASA uses a scoring system of 14, 12, 10, 8, 5 or 0 points per arrow. Scoring is based on zero points for a miss, five points are earned for a hit anywhere in the body, eight points for the largest scoring ring in the center of the animal, ten points for the 4 – 5 inch center circle inside the 8-ring, and twelve points for the smaller ring offset to the bottom or top of the 10-ring. Another circle housed in the upper rear of the 8-ring is a 14-ring.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - fita*

Archery Organization - International Archery Federation
FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE TIR A L'ARC (FITA)

From the FITA website

History of FITA

The international governing body of archery is the International Archery Federation (FITA). Founded on the 4th of September, 1931 in Lwow, Poland, by seven countries (France, Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland, the United States, Hungary, and Italy), FITA serves to promote and regulate archery world-wide through its more than 140 Member Associations (National Federations or Associations) and in conformity with the Olympic principles. It aims at framing and interpreting the FITA Rules and arranging for the organization of World Championships and other international competitions.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - ibo*

Archery Organization - International Bowhunting Organization (IBO)

From the IBO website.

IBO PREAMBLE: To unify Bowhunters and Bowhunter organization at an international level for the purposes designed to:

Promote, encourage, and foster the sport of Bowhunting; Bowhunter education; act as a liaison for the betterment of Bowhunters; to function as a clearing house for essential Bowhunter information; to assist and foster the conservation and preservation of wildlife; and to adhere to the basic ideal of the International Bowhunting Organization, Inc. which is the UNIFICATION of BOWHUNTERS.

The International Bowhunting Organization (IBO) was created in 1984 by a dedicated group of bowhunters who shared the desire to ensure that bowhunting and the ideals of wildlife conservation will survive, expand and flourish to be shared, enjoyed and passed on to future generations.

Soon after its inception, the IBO launched the Triple Crown of Bowhunting, consisting of three national tournaments hosted in separate states. Utilizing identical rules and classes, the Triple Crown culminates with the crowning of national champions of various age, sex and equipment classes. The series continues to expand each year and has become the undisputed indicator of the best individual performers and equipment in the sport of 3-D archery and bowhunting.

In 1989, the IBO World Championship established a series of sanctioned tournaments worldwide in which participants may qualify to compete in an annual finale to be held in a large and accommodating, destination-type venue. Presently, hundreds of local and regional bowhunting clubs host qualifying events.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - More Archery Organizations*

Archery Organization - National Archery Association (NAA)

Archery Organization - National Alliance for the Development of Archery (NADA)

Archery Organization - National Field Archery Association (NFAA)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Arrows*

Arrow - Aluminum

Easton produces aluminum alloy arrows. The sizing convention is a series of 4 numbers. The first 2 numbers are the outside diameter in 64ths of an inch, and the last 2 numbers are the wall thickness expressed in 1/1000ths of an inch. An Easton 1916 aluminum arrow is 19/64ths outside diameter and the wall thickness = 16/1000ths.


Arrow - Carbon

A wide range of arrows produced from carbon fiber are available for target and hunting uses. Carbon arrows are typically categorized by a standardized stiff rating scale. An Easton Fatboy 400 carbon arrow is an arrow that bends 0.400 inches in an arrow bending measuring device.


Arrow - Carbon with Aluminum Core

A limited number of hybrid carbon arrows with a central aluminum core are available. Easton produces the X10 target recurve arrow, the X10 ProTour target compound arrow, and the ACE target recurve and compound arrow.


----------



## Fleahop

nuts&bolts said:


> Anchor
> 
> Facial touch points that serve as a reference for a shooter's release hand position on the side of the shooter's face.


The nose thing was for me. Just so everyone knows. LOL 

Notice it is in Bold. That is one of the things that I was doing wrong in my form. It took several hundred arrows before I started feeling a little normal not using my nose. 
I am still catching myself leaning towards the bow string.

By tilting my head I changed my sight picture. No big deal inside or on flat ground where you tilt the same every time, 
but out side shooting up and down hills the tilt became more or less with every target depending on the angle, which amplified the change in your sight picture.

This didn't move the arrow or group much but it moved it. When I over extended one way or the other on purpose to see what happened it moved the group alot.
But a little is no big deal right...Ya unless all you need is a 5 instead of a 4 to win.

Thanks Again
Flea


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Arrow Building*

*Arrow Building - Arrow Saw*

An arrow saw is used to safely cut aluminum and carbon arrow shafts. Typically, an arrow saw will have a cutting wheel with electric motor, arrow nock support and arrow support surround the cutting wheel.










(Weston Gear Arrow Saw)



*Arrow Building - Arrow Spinner*

An arrow spinner is a rigid frame with 4 precision ball bearings that are installed at the same height above the base of the frame, and the axles of the two left-hand bearings are dead straight, and the axles of the two right-had bearings are dead straight. So, when you put an arrow with a broadhead installed, and spin the broadhead-tipped arrow...you can easily see if any wobble occurs, while looking at the tip of the spinning broadhead. If you do see wobble, and this is a carbon arrow...then, use the G5 Arrow Squaring Device to true up the face of the aluminum insert, and then....remove the insert and true up the cut face of the arrow.










(Pine Ridge Arrow Spin Tester)



*Arrow Building - Arrow Wrap*

An arrow wrap is simply an adhesive label applied to the rear of an arrow shaft, to provide a surface to glue on fletching. These labels can be as simple as a white, inkjet printer waterproof white label or these wraps can be purchased commercially with artwork.



*Arrow Building - G5 Arrow Squaring Device*










(G5 Arrow Squaring Device)



*Arrow Building - Field Points*

Field points are screwed into aluminum inserts, at the front of the arrow shaft. Field points are typically available in weights ranging from 75 grains, 85 grains, 100 grains, 125 grains, and 145 grains. A limited selection of heavier field points are available in weights of 200, 25, 250 and 300 grains.










(Saunders Combo Field Point)



*Arrow Building - Glue In Target Points*

Target arrows typically will use glue-in style points.










(Easton ACC One-Piece Point)












(Easton Hyperspeed Nibb Point)












(Easton ACE Breakoff Point)



*Arrow Building - Glue In Target Point Weight System, e.g. PDP or GoldTip Weights*

The PDP and the GoldTip glue-in style target points are internally threaded, and will accept screw in weights.










(GoldTip Point Weight System)


*Arrow Building - Insert*

Aluminum inserts are sized for a precision slip fit inside of aluminum or carbon or carbon/aluminum hybrid arrows. Screw-in field points are installed in the insert, allowing for easy field point weight changes at the front of the arrow and/or installing a broadhead.










(GoldTip 0.246 Insert)



*Arrow Building - Zip Strip*

A Zip Strip is a fletching removal tool.










(Norway Industries Zip Strip)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - Arrow Flight*

Arrow Flight - Fishtail

Fishtailing is a side to side motion of the nock, while the arrow is in flight.










(Image from the Easton Tuning Guide)



Arrow Flight - Porpoise

Porpoising is a up and down motion of the nock, while the arrow is in flight.










(Image from the Easton Tuning Guide)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - Arrow Rests*

Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Spring Steel or Blade Launcher

Arrow Rest with a spring steel launcher blade as the arrow rest support arm










(BriteSite ProTuner Spring Steel Blade Arrow Rest)



Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Drop Away / Fall Away

A Fall Away Arrow Rest has a spring loaded arrow rest support arm, which is typically tied to the "down cable" of a compound bow. When the compound bow is at full draw, the down cable moves in the downward direction, thereby pulling down on the drop away arrow rest cord, which pulls on a lever that swings the support arm into the full up position.










(Trophy Taker Pronghorn Fall Away Arrow Rest)



Arrow Rest (Compound with Release) - Whisker Biscuit










(Trophy Ridge Whisker Biscuit Arrow Rest)



Arrow Rest (Compound and Recurve with Fingers) - Springy Arrow Rest

The Martin Archery Springy Rest is a threaded bolt with a coiled wire spring which serves a dual purpose. The coiled spring provides side pressure to dampen arrow side-to-side movement, and the straight portion of the wire supports the arrow.










(Martin Archery Springy Rest)



Arrow Rest (Recurve with Fingers) - Hoyt Super Rest

A classic recurve bow arrow rest.










(Hoyt Super Rest)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glossary - Arrow Rest Centershot*

Arrow Rest Centershot

Proper arrow rest centershot is the optimum horizontal position for the arrow rest, such that the centerline of the arrow rest support arm is directly in line with the bowstring path, when an arrow is released.


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts,

Has setting peep height/tying in a peep been addressed anywhere? I don't remember seeing that topic.

Any insight you would like to share would be great!! 

Thanks!

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> nuts&bolts,
> 
> Has setting peep height/tying in a peep been addressed anywhere? I don't remember seeing that topic.
> 
> Any insight you would like to share would be great!!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tim


Setting a Peep Sight.


The key to a consistent shot,
is to do exactly that...be consistent.

So,
we need a repeatable anchor point on the side of the face.

So,
we need a consistent head tilt angle for every shot (recommend zero forward head/neck tilt..zero backward head/neck tilt).

So,
come to full draw,
and close your eyes...

and
find your anchor point by your facial touch point references.

Now,
that you are at full draw,
and
your head/neck tilt is set at ZERO,
and
you are at your anchor...

open your eyes,
and determine IF you can see through your peep sight.

Move the peep sight up or down,
and
repeat the "closed eyes finding your anchor" process...

until your peep sight position is just perfect.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks and my apologies. Setting peep height was addressed, and pretty darn clearly, early on. :doh:

Do you have to press or otherwise relieve tension on your string when moving your peep?

Do you have to tie the peep in above and below or can you just tie around the peep a few times to ensure it doesn't move? I currently have my peep tied in a fashion that resembles the latter.

Thanks.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Thanks and my apologies. Setting peep height was addressed, and pretty darn clearly, early on. :doh:
> 
> Do you have to press or otherwise relieve tension on your string when moving your peep?
> 
> Do you have to tie the peep in above and below or can you just tie around the peep a few times to ensure it doesn't move? I currently have my peep tied in a fashion that resembles the latter.
> 
> Thanks.


If you took off the sharp edges on your peep sight,
BEFORE you installed the peep sight...

then,
slidinng the peep sight slightly higher or lower,
is no problem.

Depending on the number of twists in your bowstring
(especially is have a tight twist ratio)...

then,
sliding the peep sight higher or lower,
a "noticeable amount",
may also cause the peep sight to rotate to a new position,
which will require a half twist in the bowstring
or
swapping bowstring strands.

Let's say you have to slide the peep sight 1/4-inch higher,
AND
this causes the peep sight to take a 1/8th rotation.

Well,
you might be able to fix this with a half twist in the bowstring,
and
if not....

then,
you will need to swap strands of the bowstring.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Thanks and my apologies. Setting peep height was addressed, and pretty darn clearly, early on. :doh:
> 
> Do you have to press or otherwise relieve tension on your string when moving your peep?
> 
> Do you have to tie the peep in above and below or can you just tie around the peep a few times to ensure it doesn't move? I currently have my peep tied in a fashion that resembles the latter.
> 
> Thanks.



When you are ABSOLUTELY sure of the peep sight position,
and
you are ABSOLUTELY happy with your anchor position...

then,
it is time to lock down the peep sight.

So,
the peep sight splits the bowstring into two bundles
above the peep sight
and
below the peep sight.

The key is to make sure the peep sight does NOT move up
and
to make sure the peep sight does NOT move down...

not even 1/64th of an inch.


So,
if you like to tie a short serving above and below the peep sight,
that's fine.

I like to go further,
and tie a short serving on one bundle (say top left) just above the peep sight
and
tie a short serving on one bundle (say bottom left) just below the peep sight.

This way,
the peep sight cannot move at all, which is the whole point.


----------



## sniperjim

This is really a great thread. If you have not asked for the manual yet than do so.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Arrow Straightener*

Glossary - Arrow Straightener

Arrow Straightener

An arrow straightener is primarily designed for use with aluminum arrows. It is a rigid frame, with 4 precision ball bearings: two bearings on a frame to the left of the pressing arm and two bearings on a frame to the right of the pressing arm. A dial indicator tells you how much of a bend you have in the arrow. The dial indicator can measure to 5/10,000ths of an inch.










(Arizona Archery Enterprises Arrow Straightener)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Axle to Axle (ATA)*

Axle to Axle (ATA)

ATA typically refers to the axle to axle distance. Limbs will deliver the rated maximum draw weight, when the limbs are "bent" enough. A quick way to check, that the limbs are "sufficiently bent", is to check the axle to axle distance.


----------



## ron hatley

*where can I get this book?*

Where can I get the book that has been put together of this information?


BowTechCDR said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am new to bow tuning/set up and am looking for some general guidelines I can follow when I am adjusting my equipment or that of friends that trust me to work on their bows.
> 
> Anyway,
> I am looking for some "rules of thumb" if you will regarding the following:
> 1. What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the draw weight of your bow? To ATA? How many twists in or out constitutes too many?
> 2. What does adding or removing twists from your control cables do to draw weight? ATA? How many twists in or out are too many?
> 3. How does adding or removing twists in your string in conjunction with adding or removing twists in your cable(s) affect your bow?
> 4. On a dual cam bow, how do you advance/****** the cams to gain proper position and timing? Single cam bow?
> 5. What is yoke tuning? How is it accomplished? Why is it needed?
> 6. What is paper tuning? How do you do it?
> 7. What is walk back tuning? How do you do it?
> 8. How do you correct cam lean on a single cam bow with a split yoke buss cable? On a dual cam dual control cable bow?
> Etc, etc, etc. ANYTHING you want to share that may help another archer!!
> 
> Don't feel you have to answer any specific topic mentioned in this thread. If you have a tip, share it.
> 
> I am simply trying to document as much tuning knowledge as possible so I can get better at what I am undertaking.
> I love this sport and want to learn so I can teach others.
> 
> All input is greatly appreciated.
> 
> So, if you have a tuning tip or several tuning tips you would like to share on whatever kind of bow, or, whatever kind of equipment (peeps, string stop, string leeches, dloops, stabilizers, sights (target or hunting), strings, monkey tails, speed nocks, cat whiskers, sound deadening fleece, releases [BT, Wrist Strap, thumb] etc) please post them here.
> And don't think anything is too small or too big. If I need clarification from you, I will PM you asking for it.
> 
> I plan to compile all tips posted and put together a tuning guide that I will make available once it is complete. For free, of course, to AT members.
> 
> Archers Helping Archers.
> 
> Start sending those tips!!!!
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> -Tim
> 
> p.s. I did not search the forum for answers to these questions and I'm sure there is a book or two that explains it all. I learn best by reading real life people tell of real life scenarios. Thanks again.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ron hatley said:


> Where can I get the book that has been put together of this information?


Hello ron hatley:

Everything in this thread has been re-organized into a "book" format,
with chapters and a table of contents,
by BowTechCDR.

So, send a pm message
to BowTechCDR and he will send you a pdf file of the "book",
no charge.


----------



## kturn52

it not much of a tip but if you loosen the limb bolts any more than the factory setting your going to run out of thread and have the limbs slap back when you draw the string. essentially, ya done broke ya bow. ive never tuned much (except for pin sights of course) because of the fact that for me, if i get to far from the factory setting then i wont be able to get back if i needed to. im someone whoo likes to tune in the bottom-most pin and shoot in the back yard and just watch the groups sail for 60 yds and maybe impress the neighbors. haha. the point im getting at is that if you are going to get fancy with the paper and walk-back tuning then make sure ya know how to get back or to get to a different distance set up


----------



## nuts&bolts

*"nuts&bolts guide to archery" is now up to 148 pages*

Hello folks:

I am working on a glossary, with brief descriptions and pictures, where approrpriate.
Length of the "draft" guide is now 148 pages.

The glossary is complete up through LETTER A.

Whew!

Only 25 letters of the alphabet left,
to complete the Glossary.

The "guide" is organized into chapters, so if you have earlier versions,
you can just print out the chapter(s) that have changed and add to your binder.

*Please contact BowTechCDR, and he will send you the latest pdf files.*

The guide is now set us as 3 separate pdf files for easier emailing.

No charge folks. 

BowTechCDR did all the heavy work of setting up the "skeleton...structure....table of contents...formatting...organizing all the posts on this thread into the structure of a book".

This "book" is intended for the good folks of AT, that have questions, everyday shooters that are....as the title of the thread says...."New to bowtuning, and looking for guidelines".


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

I just read a post that referred to a bow with "overdraw". What is overdraw? Does every bow have it? If your bow has overdraw, what is the benefit? Is it something that can be "tuned" in to or out of a bow?

Thanks!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just read a post that referred to a bow with "overdraw". What is overdraw? Does every bow have it? If your bow has overdraw, what is the benefit? Is it something that can be "tuned" in to or out of a bow?
> 
> Thanks!!


Hello BowTechCDR:

An "overdraw" used to be an arrow rest,
with an EXTRA LONG frame.

With an EXTRA long frame,
then you could set the arrow rest support arm
much closer to your face,
so.....

you could use a MUCH SHORTER arrow,
which means a much lighter arrow.

Back when aluminum arrows were the only game in town 
(carbon arrows not available yet)
then, the way to get MORE arrow speed,
was to use a shorter, lighter weight arrow.











One example of an "overdraw" system.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking it was something in the cam/cams.

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## CEC81561

*Guide*

Hats off to nutsnbolts and bowtech cdr, thanks again for all your hard work guys!!!!!


----------



## MysticFlight

Ok, riddle me this.

Rytera Nemesis 61.5# 29" draw
string loop and catwhiskers on string
Easton FMJ 29" have tried 340, 400 and 500s with 3" fusion vanes and or 3" quickspins
NAP QT 360, WB, Octaine tripwire, QAD Pro, and Limb Driver

No matter what I do and I have spent HOURS on the range and paper, my arrows are "fish tailing". I have also tried ALL the rests listed above and used and used foot powder and have no contact.

My own evaluation is torquing the bow but I am not. I have changed my grip ever so slightly and watched and made sure I am not and still get a "fishTail". Nocks are snug but not overly tight.

I am grouping really tight out to 60yds and beyond and would be just fine for most but I am one of those people that just cant get over having a "fish Tail". I have moved the rests ALL OVER the place trying to get it out to no avail. I also CANNOT get fixed broadheads to tune into same spot as field points. The broadheads hit at least 10" right of field points at 20yds with all arrow spines and rests. Mechanicals are only maybe 2-3" right of field points.
I have tried all the spines available for my set up and tried EVERYTHING I can think of and have read about with no results.

Please help


----------



## nuts&bolts

MysticFlight said:


> Ok, riddle me this.
> 
> Rytera Nemesis 61.5# 29" draw
> string loop and catwhiskers on string
> Easton FMJ 29" have tried 340, 400 and 500s with 3" fusion vanes and or 3" quickspins
> NAP QT 360, WB, Octaine tripwire, QAD Pro, and Limb Driver
> 
> No matter what I do and I have spent HOURS on the range and paper, my arrows are "fish tailing". I have also tried ALL the rests listed above and used and used foot powder and have no contact.
> 
> My own evaluation is torquing the bow but I am not. I have changed my grip ever so slightly and watched and made sure I am not and still get a "fishTail". Nocks are snug but not overly tight.
> 
> I am grouping really tight out to 60yds and beyond and would be just fine for most but I am one of those people that just cant get over having a "fish Tail". I have moved the rests ALL OVER the place trying to get it out to no avail. I also CANNOT get fixed broadheads to tune into same spot as field points. The broadheads hit at least 10" right of field points at 20yds with all arrow spines and rests. Mechanicals are only maybe 2-3" right of field points.
> I have tried all the spines available for my set up and tried EVERYTHING I can think of and have read about with no results.
> 
> Please help




1) Rytera Nemesis

2) Draw Weight = 61.5 lbs

3) Draw length setting = 29-inches

4) Current arrow with broadhead = ??? Easton FMJ (which spine)

5) Current arrow shaft raw length = ??? (just the shaft length...no nock length)

6) Vanes? Feathers? Brand and model and length of vanes or feathers = ???

7) Arrow Wrap = yes? no?

8) Lighted nock?? Easton nock??

9) What is the arrow group size with field points at 60 yards? which arrows?

10) What is the arrow group size with field points at 20 yards? which arrows?


Broadheads hitting 10-inches right at 20 yards is quite a bit.

Are you a RH shooter or a LH shooter?

Can we see a picture of you at FULL DRAW,
(head to toe photo)

while aiming at a bullseye at YOUR exact shoulder height
(so the arrow will be dead level, when at full draw).

If you wish,
just send the photo via pm.

I have a few ideas,
but I need the photo
and
I need the answers to the 10 questions.....first.


----------



## MysticFlight

*Fish Tailing*

1) Rytera Nemesis

2) Draw Weight = 61.5 lbs

3) Draw length setting = 29-inches

4) Current arrow with broadhead = Currently FMJ 340s (400s and 500s have same exact fishtail) and Carbon Express F-15 fixed. Same fishtail though with GrimReapers, Epic and Rage

5) Current arrow shaft raw length = end to end no nock or point is 28.5" on all of them

6) Vanes? Feathers? Brand and model and length of vanes or feathers = Currently 3" Fusion vanes and have tried 3" QuickSpins with same results

7) Arrow Wrap = NO

8) Lighted nock?? Easton nock?? Both no difference between Luminock and Easton X Nock

9) What is the arrow group size with field points at 60 yards? which arrows? Average 3" groups with both field and broadheads

10) What is the arrow group size with field points at 20 yards? which arrows? Average 1-2" groups with both field and broadheads


----------



## nuts&bolts

MysticFlight said:


> 1) Rytera Nemesis
> 
> 2) Draw Weight = 61.5 lbs
> 
> 3) Draw length setting = 29-inches
> 
> 4) Current arrow with broadhead = Currently FMJ 340s (400s and 500s have same exact fishtail) and Carbon Express F-15 fixed. Same fishtail though with GrimReapers, Epic and Rage
> 
> 5) Current arrow shaft raw length = end to end no nock or point is 28.5" on all of them
> 
> 6) Vanes? Feathers? Brand and model and length of vanes or feathers = Currently 3" Fusion vanes and have tried 3" QuickSpins with same results
> 
> 7) Arrow Wrap = NO
> 
> 8) Lighted nock?? Easton nock?? Both no difference between Luminock and Easton X Nock
> 
> 9) What is the arrow group size with field points at 60 yards? which arrows? Average 3" groups with both field and broadheads
> 
> 10) What is the arrow group size with field points at 20 yards? which arrows? Average 1-2" groups with both field and broadheads




3-inch groups with field and broadheads at 60 yards is EXCELLENT shooting.


I don't see a bow sling, so I would recommend a sling,
or just make a simple one from a piece of paracord. This way you don't have to hang onto the bow riser. Just let the bow sit in your hand, and the cord will prevent you from dropping your Nemesis.


Broadheads hitting together at 20 yards (1-2 inch groups),
and
field points hitting together at 20 yards (1-2 inch groups)...

but

the field point group and the broadhead group
separated by 10-INCHES...

with the 2-inch broadhead off to the RIGHT of the field points...

AND

you are a RH shooter...

tells me several things.


1) make a home made bow sling, just as an experiment


2) you are repeating your shooting form EXPERTLY, cuz you have excellent groups

but...

broadheads do not lie, and something about the bow AND something about how YOU shoot the bow
is causing the bow riser and/or the bowstring to move sideways,
when you release the arrow.


3) recommend 125 grain field point and 125 grain broadheads, for an experiment


4) put the Nemesis into a draw board, and confirm the top cam lean angle, while at full draw in the draw board

....need you to hold a carbon arrow TIGHT against the side of the top cam,
and then look at the edge of the carbon arrow and the edge of the bowstring,
and confirm that the gap is DEAD PARALLEL.

If not,
then put the Nemesis into a portable bow press
and twist up the yoke cable leg that is too long.

Keep adjusting the yoke cable leg that is too long,
UNTIL...

the carbon arrow, held tight against the side of the top cam,
is DEAD PARALLEL to the bowstring,
when the bow is in the draw board, at full draw.


A top cam that is leaning sideways,
even a little bit,
when the bow is at full draw....

will cause the nock of your broadhead arrow to swing sideways,
when you release the arrow,
and
that causes the broadhead arrow to steer sideways,
at arrow launch.


5) now,
....about your bow hand grip.

I can see your fingertips on the RIGHT side of the grip (on a RH bow).

So,
I would prefer you use a bow sling (even a home made one for now)
AND
would prefer you rotate the knuckles of the bow hand, CLOCKWISE...

something more like this...






























Make sure that your bow hand thumb is pointed DIRECTLY at your target/bullseye.

IF your bow hand thumb is pointed off to the left or pointed off to the right...

then,
the bow riser will twist, after your release the broadhead arrow.


6) Now, about that release side wrist ABOVE your release side elbow.

2-inch broadhead groups at 20 yards is EXCELLENT, repeatable form.
3-inch broadhead groups at 60 yards is EXCELLENT, repeatable form.

field point groups and broadhead groups 10-inches apart at 20 yards....

tells me that your release arm follow through motion,
may be VERY REPEATABLE,
but also may be causing some sideways motion on the bowstring,
when you release the arrows.


If your followthrough motion is pulling to one side,
instead of directly behind the arrow...

then,
wth field points, you can get away with this,
and the vanes provide enough steering correction
to get tight groups.


With broadheads,
you cannot get away with this,
and a 
release arm follow through motion,
that pulls off to one side,
instead of directly behind the arrow...

will pull the bowstring sideways,
and
pulling back "crooked",
will get the arrow flying forwards,
and
will start off the arrow nock swinging sideways...

and
that is how you get tight broadhead groups
and
how you get tight field point groups...

10 inches apart, at 20 yards.

Very repeatable form,
but...

the upper arm and forearm alignment (release side)
needs to be better.


----------



## nuts&bolts

MysticFlight said:


>


Now,
if you can get an overhead photo,
that would be great.

An overhead photo is very difficult to get,
so....

here is an example of what I THINK MIGHT be happening,
but won't know until we get a picture.


Here is a series of photos of 2nd Nature.












Like you,
2nd Nature has a very very open stance

(arrow is flying due north...and the feet and lower body is pointed way way off to the left....let's say lower body is pointed 45 degrees northwest).

Both you and 2nd Nature has a lot of twist,
between the upper body/shoulders
and
the lower body.


When you have nearly 45 degrees of rotation,
between the upper body 
and
the lower body....

this SHORTENS the distance
between your release side elbow
and
the bowgrip.

When you SHORTEN the distance,
between the release side elbow
and
the bow grip...a LOT...

then,
the side effect is that the wrist strap rises up HIGH
and
the release side elbow drops down LOW.












Now,
in this picture of 2nd Nature,
you can see how HIGH the wrist is (release wrist)
and
you can see how LOW the elbow gets (release side).


Here is an overhead photo (before and after) of 2nd Nature.











Here are front view photos of 2nd Nature (before and after)











so,
the main things I would like you to notice,
is in the "after" photos of 2nd Nature...

notice how the release side elbow and the release side wrist
are now the same height above the ground.



*** 125 grain field points and broadheads, would be a first experiment

*** a home made bow sling made out of some paracord, would be a 2nd experiment

*** rotate the bow hand, so the knuckles are 45 degrees away from horizontal (fingers tips should be ALL on the left side of the bow grip)...try not to catch the bow

*** have a friend stand on a ladder and take a photo (lens aiming downhill), where the ladder is directly behind your arrow, and see if you have your release arm lined up directly behind the arrow


should look like this...












Here is near perfect release side elbow alignment...


----------



## BackcountryBull

I love this thread!!!!


----------



## MysticFlight

Thanks nuts&bolts ok here is some more info for you. 

My grip wrist is fused together inside but has been for almost 20 years, My right shoulder had major work last year (6 pins holding my rotator cuff and biceps tendon together) and cannot rotate it quite perfectly in-line with the arrow but I never had this issue on my Alien X shooting the same way either. I took my old AX my wife uses now and moved it back out to my length and shot my arrows with no fish tail. 

I normally do have a sling on but was working on bow and just put stab on for pic. my grip is really relaxed and only finger touching bow normally is my pointer just on front of riser at most. The front picture you posted is almost my exact normal grip. 

The Nemesis is a tranz cam system (binary) so no yoke to twist up. The cams both top and bottom lean just slightly to the string but isn't this normal with this type of cam system? Both static and full draw on my board (just did it) are almost exactly the same, static has slightly more lean

I have Aftershock 25gr add-ons I have tried to no avail

best overhead picture I can do tonight


----------



## nuts&bolts

MysticFlight said:


> Thanks nuts&bolts ok here is some more info for you.
> 
> My grip wrist is fused together inside but has been for almost 20 years, My right shoulder had major work last year (6 pins holding my rotator cuff and biceps tendon together) and cannot rotate it quite perfectly in-line with the arrow but I never had this issue on my Alien X shooting the same way either. I took my old AX my wife uses now and moved it back out to my length and shot my arrows with no fish tail.
> 
> I normally do have a sling on but was working on bow and just put stab on for pic. my grip is really relaxed and only finger touching bow normally is my pointer just on front of riser at most. The front picture you posted is almost my exact normal grip.
> 
> The Nemesis is a tranz cam system (binary) so no yoke to twist up. The cams both top and bottom lean just slightly to the string but isn't this normal with this type of cam system? Both static and full draw on my board (just did it) are almost exactly the same, static has slightly more lean
> 
> I have Aftershock 25gr add-ons I have tried to no avail
> 
> best overhead picture I can do tonight


MysticFlight:

Ok.

More details are always good.

Don't do anything that is outside of your range of motion.

So,
let's try to adjust the bow
to the way you shoot.

Sorry, didn't look up the Nemesis.
Yup. You are correct, no yoke cables.

34-inch ATA on the Nemesis.

Tranz is the single cam.
Hybrix is the hybrid style cam, so I believe you have the Hybrix cam system,
but I know what you mean.

With a shorter ATA and no yoke cable,
then the cams are going to lean a little.


So,
we cannot adjust the top cam lean angle,
since there is no yoke cable.


We are getting severe planing with the broadhead arrows
(blades are acting like sails, and steering the front of the arrow, fighting with the vanes).


So,
I would like you to try an experiment.

Using your broadhead target,
set it up so the center of the broadhead target
is at YOUR shoulder height.

Stick a piece of duct tape vertically onto the broadhead target.

Now,
step back 6 feet,a nd fire a broadhead at the edge of the piece of duct tape.


The goal is to hit the edge of the piece of duct tape perfectly,
so half the arrow is on the duct tape,
and half the arrow is off the duct tape.

If the broadhead steers the arrow left or right (a miss),
then TWEAK the gang windage on your pins, as needed.

The goal is to get an arrow hole that looks like this.












The duct tape will get torn up,
so just keep putting up a new piece of vertical duct tape.

So,
eventually,
you will have the gang windage adjusted,
so that you get a perfect arrow hole
(half on the duct tape...half off the duct tape).



Now,
step back to 60 yards,
and fire your broadhead arrow
at your broadhead target.

Put up a bullseye face.

Now,
tweak the ARROW REST centershot,
to get your broadheads to hit center
on the bullseye at 60 yards.


Now, the broadheads are hitting center at 60 yards,
and you have the ARROW REST centershot adjusted perfectly.


Not done yet.


Go back to 6 feet,
and put up a vertical piece of duct tape,
and see if you can nail the edge of the duct tape again.

(Might need a slight GANG WINDAGE adjustment for your pins).
Get the pins windage setting perfect, for shooting at the duct tape
at 6 feet.


One last check.

Go back to 60 yards,
and fire your broadheads at the bullseye,
and confirm you are nailing the center.

Adjust the ARROW REST centershot, as needed.


This should get your arrow rest lined up perfectly,
so that we can minimize the amount of broadhead planing
that is occurring.


Let us know what happens,
with your field points,
after you have tuned your bow
for your broadheads.


Note: the fine tuning of the Gang Windage for your pins,
may require super tiny adjustments.

The Fine Tuning of the arrow rest centershot,
will definitely require super tiny adjustments.
and cut the string with your broadhead arrow.

If the


----------



## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> *The Fine Tuning of the arrow rest centershot,
> will definitely require super tiny adjustments.
> and cut the string with your broadhead arrow.
> 
> If the*


Looks like part of the post repeated itself,
so ignore this last section (highlighted in red).


----------



## BowTechCDR

I guess the "sticky" status has expired.

TTT!!!!


----------



## ballison90

WhAT nO MoRE StICKY!?!?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## BowTechCDR

I hear ya! I guess it's back to TTT!!

Cheers!


----------



## QCBowman

Back up!


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## Out West

ttt


----------



## Fleahop

Lets get some Glue...This needs to stay sticky!


----------



## BowTechCDR

I agree. Thanks Flea!!!!

If you read the thread and like it, take it TTT!!!!


----------



## Spurhunter

Yes,
This definitely needs to be stickied permanently. Take a look at the poll results for pete's sake!


----------



## Fleahop

Back to the top. Now STAY!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Spurhunter said:


> Yes,
> This definitely needs to be stickied permanently. Take a look at the poll results for pete's sake!


I couldn't agree more. I don't know the rules regarding stickys so I don't know if there is a 30 day limit or some such thing. Maybe someone could contact a mod...


----------



## talonwolf37

just want to say,i have learned alot from this thread..thank you for e-mailing me the book.


----------



## Fleahop

This Thread is like my cat it don't stay put. Back on the porch.


----------



## ballison90

go on, back to your home, you know where to go, the TOP!!!!

I think we all want this post to remain a sticky no only to continue the growth of this guide but so that any new comers to AT have the same great oppurtunity we all did to get our hands on this awesome material and learn something new about our bows!!


----------



## ItchyBro

back to the top ya go.


----------



## Madlaz

Tim I cant believe this not a sticky you should ask Mr.Martin to make this a permanent sticky because it sure helps everyone that reads it ok for now TTT


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hey Laz,

It was a sticky for a while. I'm happy with that, for now...


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Back Tension Releases*

BACK TENSION....

What is it?

Well,
it could be a style of release.










(IDEAL release...no longer in production)











(Whalen's Hooker release)











(Carter Evolution release with a custom ex-okie thumb knob)











(Carter Only release)


----------



## nuts&bolts

*GLOSSARY - Back Tension Releases and How to Make Them Let Go*

BACK TENSION releases and How to Make Them Let Go of the D-Loop

For some of these releases,
the entire release has no moving parts,
so the ENTIRE handle must rotate around your #2 finger,
in order to let go of the d-loop.










(IDEAL release...no longer in production)











(Whalen's Hooker release)



For some of these releases,
(straight pull through style...like the Carter Evolution release)
you just hang onto the handle (consistently....same finger curl around the handle...same relaxed, straight wrist angle)
and pull through, AFTER you get to anchor.

In order to GET to anchor, you hang onto the safety thumb barrel, to lock out the Carter Evo release until you GET to ANCHOR.
Inside the handle of the Carter Evo release,
there is a see-saw lever arm.

When you GET to ANCHOR,
and then...

you let go of the safety thumb knob...

the internal see-saw lever arm is FREE to work.
A set screw sets the firing pressure. Usually, a good idea is to set the FIRING PRESSURE, about 3-4 pounds MORE than your holding weight.

Folks have trouble with the Carter Evo release,
cause they really are NOT as consistent as they think they are.

If you grip the Evo Handle loosely (semi-open finger curl) on one shot,
and
if you grip the Evo Handle tighter (more closed fist finger curl) on the next shot...

the firing pressure will change.

If you grip the Evo Handle with a straight, relaxed wrist on one shot,
and
if your grip the Evo Handle with a tense forearm, and you have any kind of bend in your wrist on the next shot...

the firing pressure will change a little or could change A LOT (will not fire).


The Carter EVO release, set with a HEAVY firing pressure, is one of the BEST tools to cure target panic.










(Carter Evolution release with a custom ex-okie thumb knob)



The CLASSIC Back Tension release, is the "trigger-less" release
also know as the...

HINGE RELEASE.

No Trigger. Just a handle, and a "release head" with a hook.
The "release head" is the "moving part", that MUST rotate
in order to let go of the d-loop.

So,
depending on your frame of reference,
the "release head" is the part that hangs onto the d-loop.

You could say that the "moving part" is the handle.

The key is that the "release head" and the "handle"
are the two pieces that are connected together with a tiny metal axle.

So,
lots and lots of books, articles by famous shooters/coaches about how to make this
very simple device....

let go of the d-loop.


Here is my version.


Go find your largest SUITCASE.

Fill it right up to the airline weight limit of 50-POUNDS.

Now,
WRAP YOUR THUMB
and
WRAP ALL FOUR FINGERS around the suitcase handle...

with the suitcase still on the ground (bend your knees).....

Now,
with knees bent,
straight up your legs,
so that your arm is straight and relaxed...

so that your wrist is straight and relaxed.


Now,
EVEN though you have ALL 4 fingers wrapped around the suitcase handle...

USE ONLY the thumb and #2 finger to DO ALL THE WORK,
and

LIFT the suitcase off the floor.

HANG ONTO THE HANDLE with ONLY the thumb and #2 finger.


(HINT: this is pulling the bow to full draw).


You still have all 4 fingers wrapped around the suitcase handle,
BUT...

that's for show only...

cuz,
you are doing ALL THE WORK,
with the THUMB and #2 finger

and
hanging on for dear life.

HANG ON for say 2-seconds....ONE=ONE=THOUSAND...TWO=ONE=THOUSAND...
JUST your THUMB and your #2 FINGER...

now,
HOLD the suitcase up off the floor,
with
your THUMB and your #2 FINGER and your #3 FINGER and your #4 FINGER.

WHEW!!!!

Much more comfortable.

You are holding the suitcase OFF the FLOOR, with your ENTIRE HAND (Thumb and all 4 FINGERS)

(HINT:...you just got to FULL DRAW...waiting for the sight picture to steady up...waiting for your pins to stop moving so much).


OK.


NOW,
LET GO of your thumb, and just hold the suitcase off the floor, with your FINGERS.

(HINT: when your pins stop swaying back and forth...when your sight picture steadies up...smoothly take OFF the PRESSURE on your thumb, and let go of the thumb barrel/post)
(HINT: just hang onto the handle with your FINGERS....of course, you set the release SLOW enough to do this safely, and the release will NOT FIRE)


OK.

We are holding the 50-POUND suitcase off the floor, with all 4 FINGERS.

(HINT: we are staring down the bullseye...no thoughts going through our head....no thinking...just automatically going through all the steps...like riding a bicycle)


NOW,
we decide to TAKE the SHOT.


We now TRANSFER ALL the HOLDING POWER, to just ONE FINGER....the #3 finger.
Just for LOOKS, we still have ALL 4 FINGERS wrapped around the suitcase handle,
but....

we SHIFT our FOCUS to just the #3 finger,
and we are going to HOLD the ENTIRE SUITCASE with just the #3 FINGER.

(POW...surprise release, the arrow flies straight into the x-RING....the bow hand shoots straight forward....the release elbow flies STRAIGHT BACK)


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

You guys are harsh! 7 called this thread not helpful. Ouch!!!! I mean, I *know* I am an idiot, but, come on, this thread *is* helpful!!!!


----------



## montigre

Loved the analogy of shooting a hinge release with that of holding a full suitcase with thumb and 2nd finger---priceless!!


----------



## montigre

Request for permanent sticky status made...gotta just wait and see now if it will be approved.


----------



## BowTechCDR

montigre said:


> Loved the analogy of shooting a hinge release with that of holding a full suitcase with thumb and 2nd finger---priceless!!


I know!!! I went downstairs and did exactly what n&b said and think I am going to give BT another try!!!



montigre said:


> Request for permanent sticky status made...gotta just wait and see now if it will be approved.


Thank you! I appreciate it. I think all archers should have easy access to the outstanding information a great guy like n&b is willing to share!


----------



## ballison90

I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:

Proper way to string them?
How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
Getting a clean release with fingers?
How to attain proper arrow spine?
Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


----------



## ballison90

BowTechCDR said:


> You guys are harsh! 7 called this thread not helpful. Ouch!!!! I mean, I *know* I am an idiot, but, come on, this thread *is* helpful!!!!


I think they just did it because of the hilarious way you worded not helpful haha, "No, BTCDR you are an idiot for asking" lol, Heck, I almost voted that way because of that, that is funny stuff!!


----------



## sniperjim

Bttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

Ttt!!!


----------



## ballison90

and stay up, also if anyone wants to provide recurve advice but does not have a recurve anymore, let me know and I can provide pictures if someone explains how to do something


----------



## rhodeislandhntr

Ill be honest, this is the best info on Archery talk for a self tuner, im posting just to subscribe so i dont loose this info, thanks everyone.


----------



## ballison90

rhodeisland, PM either me or BowTechCDR with your email addy and one of us will send you a PDF file with it alllll in!! Hope you dont mind me giving you a hand in distributing it Tim. BowTechCDR gets allllll the credit for putting it together.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:
> 
> Proper way to string them?
> How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
> How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
> Getting a clean release with fingers?
> How to attain proper arrow spine?
> Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


Hello ballison90:

I also teach Olympic style recurve.


1) Proper way to string a recurve

Answer: I suggest you use a stringer


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Recurve Plunger Position and Tension*



ballison90 said:


> I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:
> 
> Proper way to string them?
> How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
> How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
> Getting a clean release with fingers?
> How to attain proper arrow spine?
> Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


 
Hello ballison90:

2) How to set correct plunger position and spring tension for a recurve bow?

Answer: Plunger position helps with archer's paradox.

You can so a Youtube video search for slow motion video of arrows fired from a recurve bow.

Because folks use fingers to fire an arrow, from a recurve bow,
the string, obviously, moves FORWARDS when you allow the string to slip off the fingertips
AND
the string also swings SIDEWAYS back and forth, when you allow the string to slip off the fingertips.

A PROPERLY spined recurve arrow,
accelerates NEARLY instantaneously...

so,
the arrow also experiences TREMENDOUS compression forces,
and in the slow motion Youtube videos...

you will see the arrow swaying back and forth.


































































You want the right edge of the arrow shaft,
to appear to touch the left edge of the string blur.
(assuming a RH recurve shooter)

Screw the plunger button further towards the riser, to push the arrow shaft away from the riser, if needed.
Screw the plunger button further away from the riser, to pull the arrow shaft closer to the riser, if needed.0












Adjust the plunger, so that the arrow shaft (right hand edge)
just appears to kiss the left hand edge of your bowstring.


Now,
set the initial plunger tension to the maximum (super stiff).

Now,
fire fletched shafts and bareshafts
and do your ROUGH TUNING,
with your limb bolts.

Try higher draw weight, if your bareshafts are tuning STIFF.

Try lower draw weight, if your bareshafts are tuning WEAK.

Try HEAVIER POINT WEIGHTS if your bareshafts are tuning STIFF.

Try LIGHTER POINT WEIGHTS if your bareshafts are tuning WEAK.


ROUGH TUNING with recurve arrows should be adjusted with limb weight on the bow,
and with point weight on the arrows.

If bareshafts are tuning STIFF, try smaller vanes (less weight on the rear end of an arrow weakens arrow behavior).
If bareshafts are tuning WEAK, try larger vanes (extra weight on the rear end of an arrow stiffens arrow behavior).


Once you get bareshafts hitting with fletched shafts,
shooting at YOUR comfortable shooting distance.....

then,
we move onto fine tuning the SHAPE and SIZE of the fletched arrow group,
with the plunger tension.


Now that we have a reasonable draw weight,
which gets your bareshafts and fletched shafts to hit together....

now, set your plunger tension to "MEDIUM"....something in the middle pressure range,
for the spring you currently have in your plunger.

Tuning with plunger tension is COMPLETELY dependent on your skill level.

If you make plunger tension changes,
and you see NO CHANGE in the point of impact
and
you see NO CHANGE in the shape and size of your fletched arrow groups,
when shooting at YOUR comfortable shooting distance...

then,
just leave the plunger tension at a nice "MEDIUM" range,
and keep practicing.

Over time,
as you get more fine finger pressure control...

as your fingers release technique gets more and more consistent...
you will start to see bareshafts grouping together at YOUR TUNING DISTANCES.

So,
at this point,
you "group tune" with the plunger tension,
making 1/4-turn adjustments on the plunger set screw (for adjusting plunger spring tension)
and...

then, making 1/8th-turn adjustments on the plunger set screw.


For my newer to recurve shooting students,
I highly recommend the Shibuya Plunger Button.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to Set Recurve Arrow Rest Elevation for Arrow Shaft*



ballison90 said:


> I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:
> 
> Proper way to string them?
> How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
> How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
> Getting a clean release with fingers?
> How to attain proper arrow spine?
> Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


Hello ballison90:

3) How to set the recurve arrow rest arm to the proper elevation?

The simplest magnetic wire arrow rest for recurve bows,
are non-adjustable for elevation.

You basically bend the wire to raise up a skinny recurve arrow
or
you basically bend the wire to lower a larger diameter recurve arrow.

I prefer to have the tip of the plunger button,
contact the arrow shaft, dead center,
at the 3-o'clock position.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to Get a Clean Release with Fingers on a Recurve Bow*



ballison90 said:


> I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:
> 
> Proper way to string them?
> How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
> How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
> Getting a clean release with fingers?
> How to attain proper arrow spine?
> Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


Hello ballison90:

4) How to get a clean release with fingers on a recurve bow?

Depends on what level you want to reach.

When I work with brand new shooters,
who have never touched a recurve bow ever...

after a 2-hour free lesson at the public archery range
(my archery club does a free monthly lesson)...

I can get folks hitting a NFAA target face at 10 yards,
and they can usually hit a large 9-inch balloon.


A clean release technique can take years to perfect...Olympic class shooting can take a very long time to perfect.

Recurve shooting is a skill that is developed and refined over time.

Kinda like playing piano or violin. The more practice you put in, the more skilled you become.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIeBGcaETYw

Study this video clip.

As I learn more each year, as I work with more and more folks,
(sometimes the best way to learn is to teach)...

the more details I notice,
even though I havr studied this clip hundreds of times.


----------



## BowTechCDR

ballison90 said:


> rhodeisland, PM either me or BowTechCDR with your email addy and one of us will send you a PDF file with it alllll in!! Hope you dont mind me giving you a hand in distributing it Tim. BowTechCDR gets allllll the credit for putting it together.


Hey Brandon,
Help away. I appreciate it. 

I have been considering taking up the recurve. It is very intriguing. You may have just given me the motivation to get one!!!!

Cheers!

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

*How to Find the PERFECT Arrow Specifications for My Recurve Bow*



ballison90 said:


> I know this is the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound bows", but why not the "Guide to tuning and shooting compound and recurve bows"? I am just learning to shoot recurve and I must say a few things about it. 1-it is a TON of fun 2-it is a real challenge to set one of these up properly and shoot properly 3-it will improve your compound shooting by LEAPS AND BOUNDS. I have been doing it for about 2 weeks, picked up the compound the other day, it felt soooooo good. Really teaches proper BT. Now, to nuts&bolts, and or anyone else who is knowledgable about recurves:
> 
> Proper way to string them?
> How to set correct plunger position and spring tension?
> How to set the rest arm to proper position? (I was told just barley beyond center of the arrow)
> Getting a clean release with fingers?
> How to attain proper arrow spine?
> Any knowledge at all, these are just a few questions to get it started, now TTT!!!


Hello ballison90:

5) How to Find the PERFECT Arrow Specs for My Recurve Bow....

This is the ulimate quest, for EVERY recurve shooter.

I probably spend more time figuring out what arrow specs,
for all the new recurve shooters at the indoor range,
where I shoot...than anything else.

Soooo many times,
new recurve shooters come into the indoor range,
with "improperly" spined arrows.

I HIGHLY recommend starting off with archery software.

I have spent years working with OnTarget2, and the results are impressive.


Too long of an arrow shaft, then the arrow will behave WEAK.
Too short of an arrow shaft, then the arrow will behave STIFF.

Too much point weight, and the arrow behaves WEAK.
Too little point weight, and the arrow behaves STIFF.

Larger vanes weigh more, so the arrow will behave STIFFER, due to extra weight on the rear end of the arrow.

Smaller vanes weigh less, so the arrow will behave WEAKER, due to lighter rear end of the arrow.

An arrow wrap (half sheet) will stiffen up arrow behavior SLIGHTLY.
A full sheet arrow wrap will stiffen up arrow behavior a bit more.
(assume 4 grains for a half sheet arrow wrap)
(assume 8 grains or so for a full arrow wrap)

Of course, noticing the tuning effects on an arrow,
depends on your recurve shooting ability,
and
is more noticeable at longer shooting distances...say 60 yards or 80 yards.


If you have a specific bow and draw weight/draw length in mind,
send me a pm with all the specifics...

short 23-inch riser or long 25-inch riser?
short, medium or long limbs?
what brace height are you using?
what string material

We can talk about nock fit and center serving outside diameter.

We can talk about striving for a 12% FOC and "proper spine" and 120 grain points.
For a recurve bow, I like to use 120 grain points, when possible to increase FOC.

If you are shooting FITA distances (up to 100 yards) or NFAA distances (up to 80 yards), then a 12% FOC is a good compromise. Higher FOC should get you tighter groups, but at the cost of losing flat trajectory...sight marks get too wide... to reach the longer distances, at lower draw weights.


Figuring out arrow specs, is a balancing game...a series of compromises.


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## BowTechCDR

TTT baby!!! TTT!!!!!!


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## BowTechCDR

Just keeping it up top. I want everyone to be able to benefit from other ATers knowledge and experience.


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## BowTechCDR

I was looking at recurves today. Brandon, you put the bug back in me to get a recurve! Dang it!!!!!!


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## ballison90

Awesome, just awesome, Thanks a million nuts&bolts!!! I dont have time to read through all of that about recurves right now, gotta finish up with the deer my dad got today, but I will later this evening. Tim-It is sooo much fun, i dont know what makes it, but even if you suck, it is just plain fun, I get mad when I have outer 9's with the compound, and if you just wanna shoot to have the most fun possibe, curve is awesome!! Plus it will make your BT soo much better, its almost like I never used BT before picking up a recurve!!


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## ballison90

What is the proper position of the little wire arm horizontally on the arrow?
Is tiller tuning as important on a recurve as it is a compound?
How do you decide what brace height to set your recurve at when stringing it up?
I apologize if these questions are obvious or dumb, but I am very green to shooting a curve and want to soak up as much knowledge as I can.


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## nuts&bolts

ballison90 said:


> What is the proper position of the little wire arm horizontally on the arrow?
> Is tiller tuning as important on a recurve as it is a compound?
> How do you decide what brace height to set your recurve at when stringing it up?
> I apologize if these questions are obvious or dumb, but I am very green to shooting a curve and want to soak up as much knowledge as I can.


1) What is the proper position of the little wire arm (horizontal swing angle) for the arrow rest?

Answer: You want a slight upward bend on the magnetic arrow rest wire, to keep the arrow from falling off the support wire. 
If your arrow rest is adjustable, then adjust the height of the wire, so the center of the arrow, matches up with the center of the plunger button.

If the arrow rest is NON-ADJUSTABLE, then I will use needle nose pliers, and put a tiny bend on the very end of the wire.

I adjust the horizontal SWING ANGLE of the wire (only applies to the adjustable magnetic arrow rests) so I have maybe 2-3 millimeters of wire sticking out past the arrow shaft.


2) Is Tiller Tuning as important on a Recurve Bow, as it is on a Compound Bow?

Answer: yes


3) How to decide what Brace Height to use with a recurve bow?

Answer: Group tune with different brace heights. The brace height which gives you the BEST groups, is the brace height to keep.
(HINT: tune with your ears as well....the brace height that gives you the quietest shot...is also usually the brace height that will give you the best groups).

(NOTE: typically, a set of limbs will "tune" at TWO brace heights...a low brace height will work well, and a high brace height will also work well)


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## BowTechCDR

ttt


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## cshondel

Bump...Dern good stuff here!


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## BowTechCDR

Why, thanks cshondel!


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## ballison90

BUMP!!! Not real sure what else to ask, im sure there is plenty more, but being new to recurve just dont know what to ask so for now TTT


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## BowTechCDR

Yea! What he said!!! TTT!!!!!!!


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## nuts&bolts

*Develop a Written Shot Routine for the Way YOU Shoot*

Question from huntin rampage, in another thread, about
how to become more accurate, in general, at ALL distances.

Suggestion: 

*Develop a written shot routine. *

A shot routine is a itemized list of the steps you take, 
like an instruction manual, 
but this is one YOU write to describe what YOU do,
each time you shoot an arrow. 

Over time, as your skills improve, 
you will change some steps, 
take out some steps, 
add a step. 

The purpose of this "recipe"
is to document what you do, 
and to make SURE you do ALL the steps, 
in the same order, in the same way.

Early recipes might be: 1) load the arrow, 2) shoot the arrow.

Lately, these are the steps I went through,
for a recent training session. 

1) "address the target", 

2) check lower body rotation angle position (where are my hips pointing?), 

3) check upper body angle (where is the line for my 2 shoulders pointing?), 

4) load arrow, 

5) set bow hand position, 

6) check pressure across palm 
(top of palm, center of palm and heel of palm= thenar eminence),

7) level out the shoulders, 

8) rotate head

9) set head angle (forward tilt....stare deep into the x-ring...no blinking), 

9) freeze head angle, 

10) raise bow arm, 

11) level out the arrow just above final sight picture, 

12) draw bow and maintain pressure when hitting anchor,

13) relax bow hand while steadying bow sight picture and maintain pressure at full draw, 

14) settle shoulders and shift pressure to upper/mid back muscles, 

15) settle into the narrowest shooting position possible while maintain pressure at full draw, 

16) allow thumb to fall off thumb post on release, 

17) allow the body to naturally center the sight picture image inside the peep and scope housing, 

18) decide to commit to the shot,

19) maintain pressure on the release with only the middle finger....POW. 

20) Surprise release. 

21) Confirm that bow follow through was satisfactory and release arm elbow follow through was satisfactory. 

22) Write down impression of follow through reactions into log book. 

23) Repeat for next shot.


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## huntercr

Great thread, TTT


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## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

Interest in the guide continues to be strong. FANTASTIC. Keep the requests coming. 

Remember, if you want a copy, no problem. Just PM me *with an email address*. Without it, I can't send a copy. 

If you provide an email address, other ATers may see it when I send out your copy.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


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## ballison90

TTT!!! Keep it going!!


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## Madlaz

Alan thanks for that post going to make a poster out of those steps and put it on the wall at our club.Laz


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## Madlaz

Nuts & bolts any good advice for finger shooters far as aiming sighting bare and with sights let off anchor high or low finger position loosing with fingers


----------



## Reddirt

Nuts and Bolts

Let me know when your tuning book is for sale - I'll buy it.


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## nuts&bolts

Madlaz said:


> Nuts & bolts any good advice for finger shooters far as aiming sighting bare and with sights let off anchor high or low finger position loosing with fingers


Hello Madlaz:

That's a lot of questions, with many answers.

*FINGERS SHOOTERS*

a) Aiming systems for Fingers Shooters

b) Sighting In with Fingers

c) Shooting Barebow with Fingers

d) Shooting with a Sight and Fingers

e) Letoff Percentage for Fingers Shooters

f) High Anchor (Face Walking)

g) Low Anchor (Olympic Style)

h) Split Finger Release / Loose

i) Three Fingers Under Release / Loose


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reddirt said:


> Nuts and Bolts
> 
> Let me know when your tuning book is for sale - I'll buy it.


Hello Reddirt:

Send a pm message to BowTechCDR,
and he will send you back several pdf files (current draft of the book is about 150 pages with LOTS of pictures).

All of the questions and answers in this thread, 
have been sorted and re-organized into book format,
with chapters and a Table of Contents.

No Charge. Free. All Volunteer Work.

A book for the people of AT, 
by the people of AT and 
of the people of AT.

Archers helping Archers.


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## Spikealot

A book for the people of AT said:


> Beyond awesome for all of you to do this for all of us !!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*FINGERS SHOOTERS - Aiming System*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> a) Aiming systems for Fingers Shooters


When shooting with fingers (recurve or compound),
the "Sight Picture" must be correct.

What this means,
is that whether you use a plunger button











or
whether you are using a springy rest....











the arrow alignment MUST be slightly offset
to one side of the string image of your sight picture.


The reason is due to something called "Archer's Paradox".

Fancy term for the fact that,
when a FINGERS shooter looses / releases the bowstring,
the bowstring MUST roll AROUND the finger tips,
and the bowstring starts moving FORWARDS very quickly
AND
the bowstring wobbles left to right.

The bowstring accellerates SO FAST, that a "PROPERLY SPINED" arrow,
will actually bend back and forth (column axial loading)
around two node points.







































































Now,
those photos were from a recurve shooter. Imagine the effects on an arrow shot from a compound fingers shooter.



So,
for a RH FINGERS shooter,
we need the arrow offset a skosh to the LEFT of the bowstring image in our sight picture.












The figure above,
applies for RH FINGERS shooters using a sight
or
for RH FINGERS shooters not using a sight (barebow).

When you line up the bowstring, with the center of your limbs,
holding the bow at arm's length,
the right edge of the arrow shaft,
should line up with the left edge of the bowstring.

This is a good starting point
for how far your plunger tip pushes the arrow away from the riser window
or
for how far your springy rest pushes the arrow away from the riser window,
while the bow is at rest.

Fine tuning the horizontal position of the arrow shaft,
will come later (see Modified French Tuning).


----------



## chrismatthews

nuts&bolts said:


> Question from huntin
> 
> rampage, in another thread, about
> how to become more accurate, in general, at ALL distances.
> 
> Suggestion:
> 
> *Develop a written shot routine. *
> 
> A shot routine is a itemized list of the steps you take,
> like an instruction manual,
> but this is one YOU write to describe what YOU do,
> each time you shoot an arrow.
> 
> Over time, as your skills improve,
> you will change some steps,
> take out some steps,
> add a step.
> 
> The purpose of this "recipe"
> is to document what you do,
> and to make SURE you do ALL the steps,
> in the same order, in the same way.
> 
> Early recipes might be: 1) load the arrow, 2) shoot the arrow.
> 
> Lately, these are the steps I went through,
> for a recent training session.
> 
> 1) "address the target",
> 
> 2) check lower body rotation angle position (where are my hips pointing?),
> 
> 3) check upper body angle (where is the line for my 2 shoulders pointing?),
> 
> 4) load arrow,
> 
> 5) set bow hand position,
> 
> 6) check pressure across palm
> (top of palm, center of palm and heel of palm= thenar eminence),
> 
> 7) level out the shoulders,
> 
> 8) rotate head
> 
> 9) set head angle (forward tilt....stare deep into the x-ring...no blinking),
> 
> 9) freeze head angle,
> 
> 10) raise bow arm,
> 
> 11) level out the arrow just above final sight picture,
> 
> 12) draw bow and maintain pressure when hitting anchor,
> 
> 13) relax bow hand while steadying bow sight picture and maintain pressure at full draw,
> 
> 14) settle shoulders and shift pressure to upper/mid back muscles,
> 
> 15) settle into the narrowest shooting position possible while maintain pressure at full draw,
> 
> 16) allow thumb to fall off thumb post on release,
> 
> 17) allow the body to naturally center the sight picture image inside the peep and scope housing,
> 
> 18) decide to commit to the shot,
> 
> 19) maintain pressure on the release with only the middle finger....POW.
> 
> 20) Surprise release.
> 
> 21) Confirm that bow follow through was satisfactory and release arm elbow follow through was satisfactory.
> 
> 22) Write down impression of follow through reactions into log book.
> 
> 23) Repeat for next shot.



Much like a professional baseball player at bat!


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## nuts&bolts

*FINGERS SHOOTERS - Aiming System - Using a Sight*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> a) Aiming systems for Fingers Shooters


Now,
back to this picture, again.










If you are using a sight....with FINGERS

the key is to have reference points.

You may be using a peep sight (compound).
You may not be using a peep sight (recurve).

For this discussion,
we ARE using a target sight for a RH FINGERS shooter.

USE a finger sling or a bow sling.
Keep the bow hand relaxed.










This is from the Easton Target catalog,
a RH FINGERS shooter, shooting a compound bow.

The things to notice,
are the 45 degree angle on the back of the bow hand.

If you are a target shooter,
then a finger sling is an excellent tool to learn how to use.


If you are a hunter, the a bowsling is much more appropriate.

If you are a warm weather target shooter,
then the "power triangle" alignment MIGHT work for you,
if you train endless hours, and work with a coach knowledgeable in this 
shooting method/upper body alignment. The "power triangle"
creates a very stable, and very NARROW upper body alignment,
such that a arm guard is necessary.

If you are a cold weather hunter, with heavy hunting clothes...

then, this upper body alignment will be more suitable.










With this style of upper body alignment,
you will have MORE room between the bowstring path
and
your bow arm and bulky clothing/sleeve.


However you line up your upper body,
KEEP IT CONSISTENT....

and

make sure that the bowstring is lined up through the center of your limbs.












Now,
if you are using a sight,
then the string image should be visible,
but a bit blurry.

Whether you are using a small tiny recurve aperture (3/8th inch sight ring)
or
you are using a compound target scope or a 3D scope
(Beiter 29 mm Scope) (1-3/8ths housing or larger) (2-inch housing)...

you MUST line up the string image consistently.

You need a reference point for the string image.

TRY lining up the string image blur
with the RIGHT EDGE of your scope housing.

You LINE UP A REAR rifle sight (iron sight) with the FRONT rifle sight (iron sight)
so you get a consistent ALIGNMENT.











When I take a bird's eye photo,
the SHAPE of your upper body alignment,
ESPECIALLY the SWING of your bow arm,
in relation to your shoulders,
MUST be the same for each shot.

So,
when you hit anchor, along the side of your face,
you can SWING the bow hand left or right,
and the IMAGE of the bowstring
will intersect somewhere with the scope housing and the scope rod.

WE WANT the string image to intersect the SAME EXACT SPOT,
so we have the EXACT SAME upper body alignment.

So,
SWING the bow hand/arm....

until you see the image of the string blur,
intersect the RIGHT EDGE of the scope housing.










Recurve shooters call the sight ring = APERTURE.

Compound shooters call the sight ring = SCOPE HOUSING.


So,
when you see the string image/blur just KISS the right hand edge of the SCOPE HOUSING,
then....

FREEZE your upper body,
and especially
FREEZE the angle of the bow arm with the upper body/two shoulders.

YOU ARE NOW IN A BODY CAST.

NOW,
LOOK through your SCOPE HOUSING
and WHAT do you see?

Let's say you pin is on TOP of the 8 ring on the Vegas Target Face, at 9-o'clock.
So,
your PIN is LEFT of the x-ring.


Now,
while you are FROZEN in a body cast,
you are going to ROTATE YOUR ENTIRE BODY, cuz ALL your JOINTS are LOCKED, FROZEN SOLID.

Your choice if you want to twist at the waist
to line up your upper body like the TOP HALF of a M1 Abrams TANK.

Your choice if you want to move your feet
and SPIN/ROTATE like a statue (TANK rotates tracks in opposite directions and spins the ENTIRE M1 Abrams TANK).


Now,
if you want to get technical,
you did not do STEP 1 of the shot routine correctly (ADDRESS target),
and you probably should LET DOWN.

To ADDRESS the target,
means to play with your foot position and angle,
means to get your hips lined up with your knees,
means to line up your shoulders with your knees and hips,
means to turn your head, get your head level, and stare at the target

BEFORE you lift up your bow to FIRING position.

When you ADDRESS the target correctly...
once you hit FULL DRAW, you pin will be lined up DEAD ON...

no left/right adjustment needed, for the ENTIRE BODY.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Posts #382 and #384 assumes a FINGERS shooter who does NOT use a peep sight*

Forgot to mention.

Aiming System for a FINGERS shooter (posts #382 and 384)
assumes that the shooter is NOT using a peep sight.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*FINGERS shooter and Aiming System with a Peep Sight*

If you are a FINGERS shooter,
and you do use a peep sight and a target sight/pin sight...

then,
of course,
line up the peep sight so that the sight ring (pin guard or scope housing)
is centered inside your peep sight.

HINT: Specialty Archery Hooded Peep Sight.

If you use the excellent Specialty Archery Hooded Peep Sight,
then...

you know that this is really a Peep Sight Housing with
a threaded barrel, 
which accepts inserts.

Well,
if you are lined up on a target,
and...

you can SEE the internal threading inside the Specialty Archery peep sight..

1) you are out of alignment on the string arm 
(elbow too far forward or too far back behind your head)

or

2) you have peep sight twist (add a half twist or remove a half twist on the bowstring)

or

3) you are torquing the bowstring with your fingers (adding twist to the bowstring).


So,
when the Specialty Archery Hooded Peep Sight is lined up square to your eyeball...
you will ONLY see a ring, and cannot see the threading for the insert.


Having the Specialty Archery Hooded Peep sight lined up SQUARE to your eyeball,
is even MORE important,
to the shooter using a clarifier insert in the peep sight
and
using a Scope with a lens.

If the peep sight clarifier insert is twisted to one side (say twisted left),
this will throw off your arrows to the left of the x-ring...so, make sure
the peep sight, and especially a CLARIFIER INSERT,
is SQUARE to your eyeball.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Sighting In with FINGERS*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> b) Sighting In with Fingers


When Sighting IN with FINGERS...
you are trying to figure out your sight marks,
so we are using a Target Sight or a Pin Sight.

So,
you are figuring out the centershot for your arrow rest.

So,
you are also trying to figure out your pin spacing
or
your target sight marks.


Trouble is,
let's say you get variability with high-low misses at sighted in distances.


1a) If you shoot with a HIGHER than normal elbow, you will miss low.

1b) If you shoot with a LOWER than normal elbow, you will miss high.



2a) If you shoot 3 fingers, and you have "lazy #4 finger", you will miss high
so, if you shoot 3 fingers, gotta keep pressure consistent on your fingers,
and especially the #4 finger.

2b) So, one option is to draw with 3 fingers, and drop the #4 finger,
and release with just the #2 and #3 fingers (these fingers are stronger).



3a) If you shoot split finger (mediterranean), with index above the nock 
and #3 and #4 fingers below the nock...

you will notice that SHORTER ATA bows, are EXTREMELY touchy
about consistent finger pressure, and especially the #4 finger.

If your finger pressure is inconsistent,
with the SHORTER ATA bow, and you shoot split finger,
then you will experience more high-low misses.

3b) So, one option is to shoot 3 fingers UNDER or 2 fingers UNDER the nock.
You SHOULD experience less sensitivity to finger pressure (less high-low misses).

One downside to shooting 2 or 3 fingers UNDER,
is that you lose range (pins need to be lower to shoot the same distance).


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Sighting In with FINGERS and the Quality of your FINGERS RELEASE technique*

The Quality of your Sight Marks,
also depends on the Quality of your FINGERS Release technique.


kungfucowboy asked a question on another thread,
about why he was having trouble getting consistent
results on a Vegas Target face at 20 yards.

Part of the area where he needs work,
is to get a more consistent fingers release technique.

Here is this freeze frame analysis of a video he posted,
you can see that kungfucowboy is "plucking" the bowstring,
and whipping his hand off to the right,
away from his face.

I pasted corresponding photos of a Olympic shooter,
so he can see a more consistent shooter's
fingers release technique.






















The amazing thing about this shooter,
is how much she resemble a STATUE,
after the arrow is fired.

Focus on the position of the release side elbow,
after the shot.










































































Her elbow is at the heigh of the fence from the entire time
the front stabilizer swings all the way down, and then the front stabilizer
swing back forward.

I always tell my students,
to "...make like a statue..",
after the shot.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Shooting Barebow with Fingers*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> c) Shooting Barebow with Fingers


Shooting Barebow, i.e. with no target sight, no pin sight.

If you are shooting target barebow (20 yards Vegas target face)...

then,
you most likely DO have some kinda of aiming system.

Fella I know,
is using point of aim.

He picks the absolute longest shaft he can find,
then
adds point weight to get the arrow to spine correctly,
for his draw length and draw weight
AND
his goal is to get the point-on-distance to be somewhere
on the target face.

If you use 3 fingers UNDER the nock,
then your point-on-shooting distance will be closer.

The higher your side of face anchor (say nock anchor just on the point of the cheek),
then the shorter your point-on-shooting distance will be.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Shooting with FINGERS and a sight*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> d) Shooting with a Sight and Fingers


Well,
shooting with a sight,
you have a choice.

With a peep sight or without a peep sight.

If you use a peep sight,
then make sure the peep sight is SQUARE to your eyeball,
and
you center the scope housing inside the peep sight.


If you choose to shoot without a peep sight,
then...

make sure you line up the string blur
consistently...I suggest for a RH shooter,
to line up the string blur, with the right edge of the scope housing.

Check 2nd axis and 3rd axis on your sight.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Letoff Percentage for FINGERS shooters*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> e) Letoff Percentage for Fingers Shooters


This one is a personal preference.

Since I am also a recurve shooter,
then I prefer the HIGHER holding weight,
that comes with a LOWER letoff percentage.

65% letoff is good.
A little bit larger outside diameter on the end serving,
will get the letoff percentage, even lower, say 63%.

When you have a higher holding weight,
you will have an easier time,
with a clean, fingers release.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*High Anchor (Face Walking)*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> f) High Anchor (Face Walking)


If we say the reference point is the tip of the #2 finger...
then,

a "high" anchor could be several things.

If you put the tip of the #3 finger onto the corner of your mouth,
you COULD call this a high anchor.

Another spot,
is to put the #2 finger onto the corner of your cheek
or
if you wear glasses,
put the #2 finger just under your eyeglass frame.


Some folks put the nock
along the side of the nose,
just under the nostril.


Using different facial anchor points
(corner of the mouth)
(#3 finger at corner of mouth)
(nock along side of nostril)
(nock just under the glasses)
(nock at the peak/corner of the cheek bone)...

is called "face" walking.

If you face walk,
with a 3 fingers UNDER hold,
then your shooting distances for each of these anchor points,
will be shorter range distances.

If you face walk,
with a split finger hold (index above, and #3 and #4 fingers below the nock),
then your shooting distances for each of these anchor points,
will be longer distances.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Low Anchor*



nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Madlaz:
> 
> That's a lot of questions, with many answers.
> 
> *FINGERS SHOOTERS*
> 
> g) Low Anchor (Olympic Style)


The Low Anchor
is the anchor point that is used by Olympic style shooters.

The string lands on the front of the chin, slightly off center.
The split finger hold,
has the top of the index finger
just under the jawbone.











When you are shooting 70 meters (about 76.5 yards),
then a LOW anchor helps increase your range
(same sight marks will shoot longer distances with a LOW anchor).


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## ballison90

YES!!!!! MORE RECURVE STUFf!!!!!!! KEEp IT cOMING!!!!!


----------



## Madlaz

Wow you hit the nail on the head with what I was lookimg for i have been given some good and bad from others but your answers confirm dome things that I needed and will really help me get better.I was tryimg to set up a target sight but i shoot to fingers under and from where i anchor the sight has to be really low and closer to the arrow was trying out a hind sight just set at 10 to 15 yds for practice in house and the way i anchor the site was close to arrow may have to trya new anchor for sights but i really dont use a sight much hate the peep .Going to concentrate on 20 yards untill next spring for spots.Thanks a lot Alan you are the greatest wish you lived in Michigan instead of the other side of the world.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Madlaz said:


> Wow you hit the nail on the head with what I was lookimg for i have been given some good and bad from others but your answers confirm dome things that I needed and will really help me get better.I was tryimg to set up a target sight but i shoot to fingers under and from where i anchor the sight has to be really low and closer to the arrow was trying out a hind sight just set at 10 to 15 yds for practice in house and the way i anchor the site was close to arrow may have to trya new anchor for sights but i really dont use a sight much hate the peep .Going to concentrate on 20 yards untill next spring for spots.Thanks a lot Alan you are the greatest wish you lived in Michigan instead of the other side of the world.


Hello Mad:

When I shoot with fingers,
I only shoot 2 UNDER for indoors (20 yards or 18 meters).

If you use a lower face anchor (2nd fingertip on corner of mouth)
(top of index finger under the jawline)...

you will be able to move the sight higher up.


If you want to dump the peep sight, go ahead.

Just line up the string blur to the right edge of the scope housing circle,
so you can keep your upper body alignment consistent.


If you are shooting outdoors,
say 50 yds, 60 yds, 80 yds (NFAA field archery distances)...

then,
a split finger hold is pretty much necessary,
combined with an under the jaw bone anchor
(Olympic style hold/anchor).

Move the scope as close to your face as you can,
and this will narrow up your sight marks,
and keep the scope higher up, for those long range shots.


----------



## Madlaz

Thanks Alan will give that advice a try I was shooting yesterday at the club had real bad luck broke 3 pin nocks i have come to the conclusion that my center serving is to thick but doesnt seem to be what else could cause this .Going to try a different string wigh has smaller center serving only shooting at 45 lbs with fingers or it may be another bach of bad nocks got me stumped.these nocks are the heavy duty Gt nocks .


----------



## nuts&bolts

Madlaz said:


> Thanks Alan will give that advice a try I was shooting yesterday at the club had real bad luck broke 3 pin nocks i have come to the conclusion that my center serving is to thick but doesnt seem to be what else could cause this .Going to try a different string wigh has smaller center serving only shooting at 45 lbs with fingers or it may be another bach of bad nocks got me stumped.these nocks are the heavy duty Gt nocks .


Find someone to redo your center serving.

I hold the bow horizontal,
with the string below the riser,
and
attach the arrow nock onto the center serving.

I sharp tap of the index finger on the center serving,
should have the arrow fly off the center serving.

I usually install an upper and lower tied nock point.

I make the center serving large enough to barely hold the weight of the arrow,
but the center serving small enough so that the nock groove
easily slides up and down the center serving,
between the 2 tied nocking points.


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

TTT is right, my friend...ttt.


----------



## bb11

Wow. Thanks to Nuts and Bolts for all the time and effort (not to mention great knowledge) put into this string! It should definitely be a "Sticky!"


----------



## ballison90

Ttt!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

bb11 said:


> Wow. Thanks to Nuts and Bolts for all the time and effort (not to mention great knowledge) put into this string! It should definitely be a "Sticky!"


There is a sticky that refers to this thread in the tuning forum.

And, as ballison90 said, ttt!!!!


----------



## stonecoldkiller

Bump TTT


----------



## ballison90

BowTechCDR said:


> There is a sticky that refers to this thread in the tuning forum.
> 
> And, as ballison90 said, ttt!!!!


oooh, I didnt know there was a permanent sticky!!! I remember request was made for it, didnt realize it made it, will have to check it out!!! TTT is right!!!


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt buddy, ttt...


----------



## ballison90

this thread is like a dog, it just keeps running away:dog1: you know where to go......yea, thats right thread, to the top.


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

I am looking into a web hosting gig so you can simply download the "guide". If/when that pans out, I will post the information here.

Cheers! :cheers:

Tim


----------



## WVaBuckHunter

Nuts and Bolts, I know it would be a lot to tackle, but how about explaining different two cam setups. Such as true dual cams, binary, overdrive binary, Mathews AVS, cam and 1/2, etc. etc. What are the advantages/disadvantages to them? How do they work in conjunction with one another? I understand this is a lot of information, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for a great thread!!!


----------



## ballison90

Ttt!!!


----------



## Fleahop

bump


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## nuts&bolts

WVaBuckHunter said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I know it would be a lot to tackle, but how about explaining different two cam setups. Such as true dual cams, binary, overdrive binary, Mathews AVS, cam and 1/2, etc. etc. What are the advantages/disadvantages to them? How do they work in conjunction with one another? I understand this is a lot of information, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for a great thread!!!


Hello WVaBuckHunter:

1) True Dual Cams

1a) Cams are mirror images of each other

1b) Capable of very aggressive draw cycle, and lots of speed.

1c) Cuz we NEVER put the d-loop in the physical center of the bowstring (always less string above the d-loop and more string below the d-loop),
then...if you tune the cams so that the cables hit the draw stops at the SAME moment...then, nock travel will not be level. If you tune a "true" twin cam
for level nock travel, then you must have one of the cams hit the draw stop first...resulting in a slightly mushy wall.

1d) Each cam is tied to the axle on the other end. Top cam is tied via a cable to the bottom axle. Bottom cam is tied via a cable to the top axle. Each cam is independent of the other one.



2) Binary Cam System

2a) A binary cam system has no yoke cables. The cables are used to tie the cams to each other. Therefore, the binary cams truly work together.

2b) A HARD draw stop system is highly recommended, because with out a draw stop peg system, a binary cam system is susceptible to "locking up".

2c) Tuning a binary cam system requires careful attention to the letoff percentage. Lockup occurs when the letoff gets too close to 100% (holding weight approaches ZERO).
If you choose to use a drop away arrow rest, then make sure the drop away arrrow rest cord is long enough, so that you get a narrow angle between the cord and the down cable.
Double check your letoff percentage, and add a half twist at a time to the down cable, always checking the holding weight, to restore the letoff percentage back to 80%.

2d) If you have a short ATA binary cam system bow, cam lean is inevitable, and also...not adjustable. Since you do not have any yoke cables, there is no way to tune out the cam lean.
The cables wrap around a module, and the module is located on one side of the cam. So, since the cable guard pulls the cables off to one side, so you have room for your arrow vanes,
then the cables will make the cams tilt towards the side of the cam, with the modules. If the cams are leaning to one side, what really is happening, is that the axles on the limb tips
are dipping down on one corner (one corner of the limb tip is low, and the other corner of the limb tip is high). When you twist the limb tips (pull one end of the axle lower),
then you are also trying to rotate/twist the limb tip...the cam is also trying to rotate counter-clockwise, for a RH binary cam system bow. IF the limb tips do twist,
the the cam will try to rotate counter-clockwise (top cam), and then the bowstring will cause lateral nock travel.


----------



## nuts&bolts

WVaBuckHunter said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I know it would be a lot to tackle, but how about explaining different two cam setups. Such as true dual cams, binary, overdrive binary, Mathews AVS, cam and 1/2, etc. etc. What are the advantages/disadvantages to them? How do they work in conjunction with one another? I understand this is a lot of information, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for a great thread!!!


3) Overdrive Binary Cam System

3a) The Overdrive system is fascinating. The axle ride inside an offset bushing, mounted in a pillow block, which actually sits on top of the limb tips, instead of through it.
This "outboard" axle is similar to what Merlin Archery has been doing. Watching the Overdrive video clip on the Bowtech Archery website, the draw cycle appears to be rather smooth,
due to the combined motion of the aggressive cam with the offset bushing on the axle; the Destroyer cams look really aggressive, but the Overdrive axle system appears to smooth out the draw cycle.
Very impressive. The return of the static yoke cables, allow for yoke tuning out the cam lean, if any.



4) Mathews AVS Cam System

Axle runs through the limb tips.
The axle rides inside an OFFSET bushing, mounted to the cam.
The cam in the Mathews video clip is also very aggressive,
but because the axle rides inside an offset bushing, just like the Overdrive system...
the combined motion of the offset bushing, with the rotation of the aggressive cam
appears very smooth.


----------



## deerheaven

nuts and bolts,,,,,your knowledge is outstanding,,,I wish your shop was my local,,,,,thank you for taken time too teach me and others with open ears,,,


----------



## nuts&bolts

WVaBuckHunter said:


> Nuts and Bolts, I know it would be a lot to tackle, but how about explaining different two cam setups. Such as true dual cams, binary, overdrive binary, Mathews AVS, cam and 1/2, etc. etc. What are the advantages/disadvantages to them? How do they work in conjunction with one another? I understand this is a lot of information, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for a great thread!!!


5) Cam and 1/2 system.

5a) Ahhhhh, the cam.5 system. The cam is on the bottom. The top metal thingy could be called a "non-round shape idler wheel", or the 1/2 part of the Cam.5 system.
So, why only 1/2 a cam up on top? In order to get better nock travel. The JAVI thread is the classic, for info about how to tune the Hoyt Cam.5 bows.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=207391&referrerid=22477


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hey nuts&bolts,

Is a draw length adjustment necessary when you change from a wrist strap/index finger release to a thumb or BT release?

Thanks!!

Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Hey nuts&bolts,
> 
> Is a draw length adjustment necessary when you change from a wrist strap/index finger release to a thumb or BT release?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Tim


Hello Tim:

Depends on your anchor.

If you anchor the nock on one position of your face,
with the wrist strap release...

and then,
the nock ends up in a slightly different place on your face,
with the handle release (thumb or BT)...

then,
you may want to rework the length of the bowstring (twist or two more or less)
to fit the bow DRAW LENGTH setting,
which really...

is just setting the peep sight distance to your eyeball.

Setting the BOW DRAW LENGTH setting,
works the "front half" of the body,
or the bow arm half of the body.


Now,
when you have the BOW adjusted to the FRONT half of the body (bow arm side)...

then,
we start to work on the RELEASE half of the body,
namely the...

a) d-loop length

and

b) release handle neck length.


The d-loop length is un-related to the bow draw length setting,
and
the d-loop length fine tunes the angle of the forearm bones on your release arm.

Once you select your handle release (thumb or BT)...
you tweak the d-loop length to match up with your release handle neck length.

Some releases have a LOOOONG neck, so you would use a SHORTER d-loop length.

Some releases have a SHORT neck, so you would use a LONGER d-loop length.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Worked with Hosscoller in person for 4 days....*

Hosscoller came to visit and train with me for about 4 days.
We worked on the basics of bow tuning...

a) slapped the bow on a home made draw board
b) cam timing was off, so twisted up one of the cables
c) tweaked draw length with the bowstring length a skosh
d) went through modified french tuning (pins windage & adjusted the arrow rest a hair
e) worked on lower body rotation angle alignment
f) worked on upper body rotation angle alignment
g) really focused on proper lower body rotation, to help align the release forearm




















You might notice the new, gravitational aid.
Fine tuned the balance, one fender washer at a time.

Excellent TRAINING aid.
Ultimately, he went back to his "pretty" weights,
and is shooting lights out.

Took him up to the outdoor practice range,
and had hosscoller fire an 80 yard shot.

Arrows were dead straight, out to 80 yards.

Not bad,
for tuning at 6 feet (pins windage) and 20 yards (arrow rest adjustments).

Modified French Tuning, at its best.


----------



## 74Superlead

TTT! Freakin' Awesome info!


----------



## WhataBuck

Best. Thread. Ever. ! ! ! :thumb:

I will work on some of these tuning tips TODAY!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

WhataBuck said:


> Best. Thread. Ever. ! ! ! :thumb:
> 
> I will work on some of these tuning tips TODAY!!


Just a reminder.

Contact BowtechCDR for a FREE copy of the "guide".
Most everything in this thread (questions and answers)
have been re-organized into book format,
complete with a full Table of Contents,
and includes ALL the pictures.

Current version is about 150 pages,
and has about 3/4 of the stuff in the thread.

Working on getting the latest stuff
into a newer version of the "guide".

No charge. All volunteer work.

The "guide" is split into about 3 pdf files,
for easier emailing.

So,
send you email address via pm,
to BowtechCDR, for your copy.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

If you requested a copy yesterday or today, I just sent them.

Cheers! :cheers:


----------



## double o

Has anyone tried to go to kinkos to print the guide? I went to their website and they wanted $75 to print in black and white.:mg:


----------



## BowTechCDR

I have not tried kinkos. $75 is pretty spendy. By my math, that is like 50 cents per page.

I priced Staples and it was like 20 cents a page black and white. Have you tried a local Staples?


----------



## double o

BowTechCDR said:


> I have not tried kinkos. $75 is pretty spendy. By my math, that is like 50 cents per page.
> 
> I priced Staples and it was like 20 cents a page black and white. Have you tried a local Staples?


Yeah i called staples today and they gave me a rough estimate around $20 for BW ink. So i guess im going their tomorrow.


----------



## WhataBuck

If you have a smartphone, it is really handy to pull out read what you need then put your phone back in your pocket and keep shooting! Made Mod. French Tuning simple!!


----------



## WhataBuck

OK.... QUESTION!!! 

08.5 Elite Z28 70#, 28" DL, Shooting Gold Tip XT Hunter 5575 with 2" Vanes at 29" (arrows out of box from Academy) with 100gr field points.

Used Modified French Tuning and have my field tips dead on at 10,20,30 yards.

A buddy gave me 2 100gr fixed blade BHs (not sure what brand) to practice with and at 20 yards the are about 5-6 inches left but perfect up and down...

The BHs he gave me were not brand new, but look close to it... Should I not read anything into it and wait for new BHs (slick trick mags or G5 montec)?

The thing that concerns me is, they grouped within an inch apart... According to eastons tuning instructions as below I am not sure what to think of this...

*Stiff Spine Reaction*
¥ Increase bow poundage
¥ Increase broadhead weight
¥ Decrease tension in cushion plunger
¥ Move the arrow rest or cushion plunger in toward the bow.

Could my arrow really be too stiff at 29"? I know I am boarder line between that arrow spine and the 7595. I still need to have arrows cut down to 28" to fit my bow... My bow poundage can't get much higher. I could try heavier broadheads but I am thinking the smaller arrow would be too weak for sure... I am not sure I want to move the arrow rest as I have it tuned perfectly per "Nuts & Bolts" tuning guide...

Any thoughts?


----------



## nuts&bolts

WhataBuck said:


> OK.... QUESTION!!!
> 
> 08.5 Elite Z28 70#, 28" DL, Shooting Gold Tip XT Hunter 5575 with 2" Vanes at 29" (arrows out of box from Academy) with 100gr field points.
> 
> Used Modified French Tuning and have my field tips dead on at 10,20,30 yards.
> 
> A buddy gave me 2 100gr fixed blade BHs (not sure what brand) to practice with and at 20 yards the are about 5-6 inches left but perfect up and down...
> 
> The BHs he gave me were not brand new, but look close to it... Should I not read anything into it and wait for new BHs (slick trick mags or G5 montec)?
> 
> The thing that concerns me is, they grouped within an inch apart... According to eastons tuning instructions as below I am not sure what to think of this...
> 
> *Stiff Spine Reaction*
> ¥ Increase bow poundage
> ¥ Increase broadhead weight
> ¥ Decrease tension in cushion plunger
> ¥ Move the arrow rest or cushion plunger in toward the bow.
> 
> Could my arrow really be too stiff at 29"? I know I am boarder line between that arrow spine and the 7595. I still need to have arrows cut down to 28" to fit my bow... My bow poundage can't get much higher. I could try heavier broadheads but I am thinking the smaller arrow would be too weak for sure... I am not sure I want to move the arrow rest as I have it tuned perfectly per "Nuts & Bolts" tuning guide...
> 
> Any thoughts?


I would believe that you are on the weak side.

So,
let's try 1 full turn off both limb bolts,
and see what happens.

Then,
let's try 2 full turns off of both limb bolts,
and see what happens.

If LESS draw weight improves things,
then we know that the arrow is actually on the weak side.


----------



## WhataBuck

See that's what I was thinking n&b, I will crank the poundage as prescribed and see where I am at ... If the spine is weak, I can go ahead an order those 7595 arrows at 28"!! 

Thanks for the help!


----------



## ballison90

ttt


----------



## WhataBuck

Update: Cranked down one full turn, no change, 2nd full turn no change... Same fairly tight group way left...


----------



## double o

I've been looking through the guide (pdf. file) and didn't see a few things that I think should be in it. Like which cable is the buss cable and which cable is the control cable on a hybrid came bow. And didn't see anything about paper tuning. Maybe nuts&bolts can chime in on this. If I explain it it proly won't make sense thanks


----------



## Fleahop

Bump


----------



## nuts&bolts

double o said:


> I've been looking through the guide (pdf. file) and didn't see a few things that I think should be in it. Like which cable is the buss cable and which cable is the control cable on a hybrid came bow. And didn't see anything about paper tuning. Maybe nuts&bolts can chime in on this. If I explain it it proly won't make sense thanks


Hello double o:

The "buss cable" is also called the "split cable".
The "buss cable" has a "Y" shaped split up on top.

The "Y" shaped split end loops attach to the top axle (split cable has a total of 3 end loops).

The "control cable" is a single cable (just 2 end loops) and attaches the top cam to the bottom cam.


----------



## nuts&bolts

WhataBuck said:


> See that's what I was thinking n&b, I will crank the poundage as prescribed and see where I am at ... If the spine is weak, I can go ahead an order those 7595 arrows at 28"!!
> 
> Thanks for the help!


By my calculations,
you would need to drop down to *50 lbs of draw weight*,
in order to make your GoldTip XT Hunter 5575 (400 spine arrows) to work,
with 100 grain broadheads, at 28-inches of draw length, for your Z28 bow.

The IBO speed rating is just way too high, at 336 fps.

I am even thinking that you might need the GoldTip Big Game arrows (300 spine rating),
and use 125 grain broadheads,
and cut the Big Game (300 spine arrows) at a raw tube length = 29-inches....

for 70 lbs of draw weight, and 28-inches of DL on the Elite Z28 bow.


----------



## WhataBuck

nuts&bolts said:


> By my calculations,
> you would need to drop down to *50 lbs of draw weight*,
> in order to make your GoldTip XT Hunter 5575 (400 spine arrows) to work,
> with 100 grain broadheads, at 28-inches of draw length, for your Z28 bow.
> 
> The IBO speed rating is just way too high, at 336 fps.
> 
> I am even thinking that you might need the GoldTip Big Game arrows (300 spine rating),
> and use 125 grain broadheads,
> and cut the Big Game (300 spine arrows) at a raw tube length = 29-inches....
> 
> for 70 lbs of draw weight, and 28-inches of DL on the Elite Z28 bow.


I will look into the big game arrows as well... I will be cutting down to 28". I could probably cut down to 27-27.5 but afraid I may amputate a finger with a BH! LOL...

Thanks!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hey everyone,

Just a reminder to include your email addy when you PM me so I can send you a copy.

Cheers!

Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

ballison90 said:


> ttt


ballison ROCKS!!!!!!!

Thanks for helping me out!


----------



## Westmdhardwoods

First off I wanted to say a HUGE thanks to everyone on this thread so far! There is alot of knowledgable information here!!

Secondly I apoligize if this has already been covered but what TOOLS would you reccomend/consider a necessitie in your arsenal of bow tuning? I will soon be in the process of picking up some more stuff. I figured it could be covered here and possible help others out as well?

Again I apoligize if this has been covered I am currently still in the process of reading through all of this thread!

I need to get ahold of BowTechCDR and get a copy of this, GREAT INFO!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Westmdhardwoods said:


> First off I wanted to say a HUGE thanks to everyone on this thread so far! There is alot of knowledgable information here!!
> 
> Secondly I apoligize if this has already been covered but what TOOLS would you reccomend/consider a necessitie in your arsenal of bow tuning? I will soon be in the process of picking up some more stuff. I figured it could be covered here and possible help others out as well?
> 
> Again I apoligize if this has been covered I am currently still in the process of reading through all of this thread!
> 
> I need to get ahold of BowTechCDR and get a copy of this, GREAT INFO!!


1) home made draw board





























2) home made bow vise





























3) home made arrow saw




















4) hex wrench set

5) phillips screwdriver

6) serving tool and spool of serving thread

7) string wax

8) propane torch and stick of hot melt glue (CDM) and a pair of pliers

9) Bitzenburger Fletching Jig with Zenith Archery Nock Receiver Upgrade










10) Bohning Fletching Tape or bottle of Loctite Super Glue Gel (the tape actually works REALLY well on vanes)

11) accurate spring scale...(don't really trust the electronic ones..in order to get really accurate, I use a ceiling hook and barbell weights and 1/2 liter water bottles)


----------



## Westmdhardwoods

Thanks Nuts and Bolts for the quick reply! What about Bow square, string level, any lasers or the such?


----------



## BowTechCDR

Westmdhardwoods said:


> I need to get ahold of BowTechCDR and get a copy of this, GREAT INFO!!


I sent you a PM.

Cheers!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Westmdhardwoods said:


> Thanks Nuts and Bolts for the quick reply! What about Bow square, string level, any lasers or the such?


I don't use a bow square,
and just use a tape measure.

Bow square is more accurate, so if you have one,
then use one.

I don't have any string or arrow levels.
I will eyeball the nock point,
and raise the arrow rest so that the arrow centerline
passes through the arrow rest hole centerline.

Then,
I move on to real world testing...

modified french tuning,
long range group tuning,
and shooting bareshafts.

I will aim at a bullseye at MY exact shoulder height,
and fire a bareshaft arrow.

If the arrow is nock high,
then I know to move the arrow rest elevation down.

If the arrow is nock low,
then I know to move the arrow rest elevation up.

So,
at least for me,
no need for string levels and arrow levels.


I never use a laser either.

The arrow rest centershot position is NEVER parallel
to the riser...always slightly off to one side,
IF...

the bow has a cable guard.

Cuz the cable guard pulls the cables sideways,
then
the arrow rest centershot position,
will always be such that the arrow is almost parallel,
but not quite parallel,
to the riser window.

Use modified french tuning,
to figure out your sight windage
and
to figure out your arrow rest centershot.


----------



## WCork

Pm sent for copy of guide! TTT!


----------



## shawn13

I would like to thank Nuts and Bolts plus BTCDR for all the great info and hard work.
Thanks 
Shawn


----------



## Darksider

nuts&bolts said:


> *4b. On a single cam bow, how do you advance/****** the cams to gain proper position and timing? *
> 
> Folks sometimes get very picky about terminology.
> 
> For a single cam bow,
> you have a very very long bowstring,
> and
> you have a cable.
> 
> The metal thingy on the bottom is the cam.
> 
> The metal thingy on the top is a idler wheel.
> 
> 
> Some folks say a single cam has "no timing"...cuz,
> there is only ONE CAM.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Let's talk about the starting rotation position
> for the metal thingy on the bottom.
> 
> Same procedure.
> 
> Find the cable end loop that attaches to a peg
> on the side/perimeter of the cam (metal thingy on the bottom)
> and
> ADD twists to this cable end loop
> or
> REMOVE twists to this cable end loop...
> 
> and
> you will adjust the starting rotation position
> for the metal thingy on the bottom
> of a solo cam bow.
> 
> To acheive the level nock travel that the bow designer intended...
> 
> there is definitely a range of "correct" starting positions
> for the cam.


On a single cam Max out the cams & line up the timing holes on the cam similar to to Javi description of a Hoyt cam & 1/2. Adjust similarly too.

Oh, Nuts & bolts. I think it is- there is no 'tiller adjustment' on a single cam.


----------



## ItchyBro

ttt


----------



## BowTechCDR

ttt


----------



## Koorsboom

> I think it is- there is no 'tiller adjustment' on a single cam


I believe there is, it is just not measured from the string but rather from a straight line between the axcles.


----------



## sniperjim

This is correct. A good deal of shooters forget about tiller setting but it is very important even with solo cams.
Nuts&Bolts please chime in!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

sniperjim said:


> This is correct. A good deal of shooters forget about tiller setting but it is very important even with solo cams.
> Nuts&Bolts please chime in!!!


Some folks say that on a solo cam bow,
there is no "timing".

Tiller adjustment is a measure of the amount of bending on the top limb, when the bow is at rest,
and
a measure of the bending on the bottom limb, when the bow is at rest.

So,
when a fellow says they are going to "tiller tune",
they are going to mess around with the limb bolts,
to adjust the bending of the upper limb and the lower limb.

You can tweak the limb bolts to different amounts (ON PURPOSE)
to change the angle of the grip,
when you are at full draw.

So,
you can always tweak the limb bolts differently (on purpose)
for solo cam bows, for hybrid cam bows, for twin cam bows, and for binary cam bows (won't have the same effect for binary cam bows).

So,
you most definitely can tweak the "tiller" on a solo cam bow.


Then,
you can also tweak the starting cam rotation position
for a solo cam bow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Koorsboom said:


> I believe there is, it is just not measured from the string but rather from a straight line between the axcles.


Hello Koorsboom.

YUP.

Because idler wheels can be quite large,
then the BEST way to measure the horizontal distance
from the top limb tip/axle to the top limb pocket
is to take a long piece of string,
and wrap it around the top axle
and stretch it taut
and wrap the other end of the long piece of string
around the bottom axle.

This way,
you are directly measuring how much each limb is BENT
while the bow is at rest,
for a solo cam bow, for a hybrid cam bow, for any bow.


----------



## Rick Martin

*Thank you for the guide*







Thank you so much for the guide. It is hard to believe that nuts
> and bolts can have so much knowledge and willing to share. I thank both
> of you. I am 67 and retired and have been shooting a bow for the last
> 40 years. I mostly am a hunter and in the 80s started shooting
> traditional after getting bored with a compound. I was successful
> huntimg deer, moose, elk, bear and caribou mostly with a longbow but
> when I turned 65 decided that with my tired eyes and old muscles needed
> to go modern. I have learned more in the last couple of days reading
> this thread then I have known in all the years I've been shooting a
> bow. Thank you again.


----------



## BowTechCDR

AWESOME!

I'm glad you like the thread and I hope you like the guide even more!

Cheers!


----------



## tman704

BowTechCDR, what revision are we on with the guide? Just Curious to see if I am current, LOL.

Thanks
Tony


----------



## nuts&bolts

tman704 said:


> BowTechCDR, what revision are we on with the guide? Just Curious to see if I am current, LOL.
> 
> Thanks
> Tony


Hello Tony:

Here is the Table of Contents for the latest version.

1.	INITIAL BOW SETUP......................................................................1-1
1.1.	Picture of Compound Bow Parts.......................................................1-1
1.2.	Glossary of Terms.........................................................................1-3
1.3.	Finding and Setting Initial Nock Point................................................1-22
1.4.	Peep Sight Location and the Nock Sitting on the Side of Your Face........1-22
1.5.	Tying in Nock Sets (by Deezlin).......................................................1-23
1.6.	Tying a D-Loop............................................................................1-25
1.7.	Finding and Setting Correct Draw Length..........................................1-28
1.8.	How to Tie In a Drop Away Arrow Rest.............................................1-34
1.9.	Trim Excess Cord After You Find the Perfect Position 
.............through the Down Cable................................................................1-37
1.10.	Can a Drop Away Arrow Rest Fall Too Quickly....................................1-37
1.11.	Draw Length Setting and Posture Clues............................................1-39
1.12.	Draw Length Before and After Stories..............................................1-40
1.13.	Posture, Back, Neck, and Shoulder Conditions...................................1-45

2.	HOW TO GRIP YOUR BOW..............................................................2-1
2.1.	Bow Hand/Bow Hand Thumb Placement............................................2-1
2.2.	High Wrist, Medium Wrist, Low Wrist and Grip Angles..........................2-7

3.	ARROW SELECTION	......................................................................3-1
3.1.	Proper Arrow Selection.................................................................3-1
3.2.	For 3D.......................................................................................3-1
3.3.	For Field Archery.........................................................................3-1
3.4.	For Indoor Shooting.....................................................................3-2
3.5.	For Indoor Spots.........................................................................3-2
3.6.	Arrow Spine...............................................................................3-3
3.7.	Spine Rating...............................................................................3-3
3.8.	Arrow Spine Testing Machine.........................................................3-4
3.9.	Arrow Front of Center (FOC) Balance and Why We Should Care............3-5
3.10.	How to Figure Out FOC?................................................................3-6

4.	BOWSTRING AND CABLE TUNING/ADJUSTING.....................................4-1
4.1.	What Does Adding or Removing 4 Twists or Less to the Bowstring 
.............Do to the Draw Weight of Your Bow?...............................................4-1
4.2.	What Does Adding or Removing Twists to/from Your String 
.............Do to the ATA of Your Bow?..........................................................4-1
4.3.	How Many Twists to the Bowstring or Cables In or Out 
.............Constitute Too Many?..................................................................4-2
4.4.	What Does Adding or Removing Twists from Your Cables 
.............Do to Draw weight? ATA?.............................................................4-2
4.5.	How Does Adding or Removing Twists in Your String in 
.............Conjunction with Adding or Removing twists in Your Cable(s) 
.............Affect Your Bow?........................................................................4-3
4.6.	What Effect Does Adding Twists to Your Cables or String Have on Your	
.............Brace Height and Draw Length?.....................................................4-4
4.7.	More on Draw Length...................................................................4-5

5.	BOW TUNING..............................................................................5-1
5.1.	Draw Length Specific Cams and In-Between Sizes 
.............(adjust DL by 1/4-inch)................................................................5-1
5.2.	On a Dual Cam Bow, How Do You Advance/****** the Cams to 
.............Gain Proper Position and Timing?....................................................5-4
5.3.	On a Single Cam Bow, How Do You Advance/****** the Cam to 
.............Gain Proper Position and Timing?....................................................5-6
5.4.	The Difference Between Synchronizing and Timing a Cam....................5-7
5.5.	How a String Should Come Off a Cam at Rest....................................5-8
5.6.	What is Yoke Tuning? How is it Accomplished? Why is it Needed?..........5-8
5.7.	Correcting Cam Lean on a Single Cam Bow........................................5-10
5.8.	Correcting Cam Lean on a Dual Cam Bow..........................................5-10
5.9.	Binary Cam Tuning Simplified (by Dave Nowlin)...................................5-11
5.10.	Level Nock Travel.........................................................................5-12
5.11.	Tiller Tuning................................................................................5-16
5.12.	Tiller Tuning, the Nitty Gritty Details................................................5-17
5.13.	So, Why Level Nock Travel? Why Tiller Tune? 
.............Why Advance/****** a Cam on Purpose?..........................................5-18

6.	SHOT TUNING..............................................................................6-1
6.1.	Walk Back Tuning.........................................................................6-1
6.2.	Modified French Tuning..................................................................6-6
6.3.	Pulling Too Hard Into the Wall.........................................................6-9
6.4.	Explosive Follow Through Motion - Bow Hand and Riser Jumps 
.............FORWARD in a Straight Line............................................................6-10
6.5.	Explosive Follow Through Motion - Bow Hand/Bow Arm 
.............ROTATES LEFT for RH shooter.........................................................6-12
6.6.	Passive Bow Arm...........................................................................6-13
6.7.	Follow Through - Release Side.........................................................6-14
6.8.	Bare Shaft Tuning and Level Nock Travel...........................................6-15

7.	ALL ABOUT SIGHTS AND SCOPES.....................................................7-1
7.1.	Adjusting Your Pin Sight.................................................................7-1
7.2.	Pin Gap Spacing and the Distance Between Your Eye and Your Pins........7-3
7.3.	2nd Axis......................................................................................7-3
7.4.	3rd Axis.......................................................................................7-7
7.5.	CLARIFIERS..................................................................................7-12
7.6.	RISER TWIST AT FULL DRAW, MISSING SIDEWAYS AND 
.............TARGET SIGHT EXTENSION.............................................................7-14
7.7.	HOW TO CORRECT BOW TORQUE (TWISTING) AND LEFT-RIGHT 
.............MISSES WITH SIGHT EXTENSION ARM..............................................7-17

8.	HOLDING STEADY: RIG WEIGHT, HOLDING WEIGHT, LET OFF, 
.............AND STABILIZERS.........................................................................8-1
8.1.	Stabilizer Systems and Twisting Motions............................................8-1
8.2.	Short, Medium, Long, and Super Long Stabilizers.................................8-2
8.3.	Total Shooting Rig Weight...............................................................8-3

9.	TARGET PANIC..............................................................................9-1
9.1.	FIRST STEP for Target Panic Training................................................9-1
9.2.	SECOND STEP for Target Panic Training.............................................9-3

10.	SHOOTING DOWNHILL....................................................................10-1

11.	BOW AND STRING MAINTENANCE......................................................11-1
11.1.	Installing A Center Serving..............................................................11-1
11.2.	After a Dry Fire or Drop from a Tree Stand.........................................11-12
11.3.	Pressing Your Compound Bow..........................................................11-13
11.4.	String Maintenance.......................................................................11-14

12.	BACK TENSION.............................................................................12-1
12.1.	Back Tension Releases...................................................................12-1
12.2.	Back Tension Method to Fire Your Release.........................................12-2




Total of 159 pages for latest edition.
Most recent addition, I added pages for a picture glossary.
Picture glossary is incomplete.


----------



## nuts&bolts

tman704 said:


> BowTechCDR, what revision are we on with the guide? Just Curious to see if I am current, LOL.
> 
> Thanks
> Tony


Dec 2 2009 edition has 148 pages.
Dec 7, 2009 edition has 159 pages, which has not been released yet.

Mostly,
the new stuff is a section "Back Tension",
that I call Chapter 12.


----------



## BowTechCDR

nuts&bolts said:


> Dec 2 2009 edition has 148 pages.
> Dec 7, 2009 edition has 159 pages, which has not been released yet.
> 
> Mostly,
> the new stuff is a section "Back Tension",
> that I call Chapter 12.



Everything in this thread has given a schlub like me a better chance at being a good shot one day. :wink:

Awesome!!!


----------



## Ignition kid

I got my e-mail yesterday. thanks so much nuts & bolts and bowtechcdr!


----------



## Eat More Meat.

BowTechCDR,

Thanks for the guide. Only been able to skim through it so far, but a lot of good information and I can tell I have my work cut out for me. This kind of reminds me when I got into ammo reloading and I only wish that I would have had such a good one stop resource for that.

Thanks again.


----------



## FlinginCarbon

Received my copy...
Thanks to BowtechCDR and Nuts & Bolts for their hard work in providing this amazing resource for us mere mortals:thumbs_up


----------



## Hosscoller

Yeah, thanks Tim and Alan, you guys rock. Thanks for the guide and keepin it up to date with new info..........

Did I say you guys rock?

How was Tulare NB? Did the kids do well?, and did you get the tuning fork out of your bow? I totally forgot about it or I would of stopped by. Tell Peter I said howdy!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Hosscoller said:


> Yeah, thanks Tim and Alan, you guys rock. Thanks for the guide and keepin it up to date with new info..........
> 
> Did I say you guys rock?
> 
> How was Tulare NB? Did the kids do well?, and did you get the tuning fork out of your bow? I totally forgot about it or I would of stopped by. Tell Peter I said howdy!


Will do.


----------



## The Phantom

Thanks for the updated copy. Appreciate your time.


----------



## Spurhunter

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Koorsboom.
> 
> YUP.
> 
> Because idler wheels can be quite large,
> then the BEST way to measure the horizontal distance
> from the top limb tip/axle to the top limb pocket
> is to take a long piece of string,
> and wrap it around the top axle
> and stretch it taut
> and wrap the other end of the long piece of string
> around the bottom axle.
> 
> This way,
> you are directly measuring how much each limb is BENT
> while the bow is at rest,
> for a solo cam bow, for a hybrid cam bow, for any bow.


N&B,
Can you give a little more explanation on this? 

I assume I'd measure from the string at 90 degrees (or use a square) to a point where the limb contacts the pocket?

If I see a difference in length should I adjust? 

I seem to have a tendency for my pin to hover just above the bullseye (2" at 40 yd) at times when aiming and sometimes struggle to bring it down. Was wondering if tiller could be contributing to this. Draw weight is not an issue. Shooting a switchback, 29" @ 62lbs. Tiller is about the only thing I haven't addressed in regards to tuning it.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this and for all the info given here. Am one of about 300 others following this thread.


----------



## trbsami

Thanks , guys for your time and expertise in putting this in an easy- to- access format.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Spurhunter said:


> N&B,
> Can you give a little more explanation on this?
> 
> I assume I'd measure from the string at 90 degrees (or use a square) to a point where the limb contacts the pocket?
> 
> If I see a difference in length should I adjust?
> 
> I seem to have a tendency for my pin to hover just above the bullseye (2" at 40 yd) at times when aiming and sometimes struggle to bring it down. Was wondering if tiller could be contributing to this. Draw weight is not an issue. Shooting a switchback, 29" @ 62lbs. Tiller is about the only thing I haven't addressed in regards to tuning it.
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this and for all the info given here. Am one of about 300 others following this thread.


It's a good idea to keep a log book,
where you write down all your measurements.

So,
with a long piece of string material,
just wrap around the outer edge of the top axle
and
wrap around the outer edge of the bottom axle,
and pull tight.

You now have a reference line from the same point away
from the limb tip, for the bottom and top limbs.

Now,
measure from the reference string line
to the spot where the limb just pops out of the limb pocket
for the top limb. Write down this measurement.

Repeat for the bottom limb. Write down this measurement.

Now, we have a STARTING point
for the amount of limb bending for the top limb,
and
we have a STARTINg point,
for the amount of limb bending for the bottom limb.

Now,
we look at what our pin does.

Since your pin is bouncing out the top of the x-ring,
this tells me that your TOP limb is a skosh too heavy.

Very simple thing to adjust.

Take 1/8th turn out of the top limb bolt.
Go and shoot lots of arrows.
See how it FEELS.

Maybe you might REMOVE another 1/16th turn off the top limb bolt.
See how THAT feels.

Keep making TEENY, TINY adjustments,
to the TOP LIMB BOLT, until you feel that the pin
holds ROCK STEADY, and does not drop down
and
does not pop up.

When you get the FEEL that you are looking for,
then....

re-measure from the spot where the limb just peeks out of the limb pocket,
and get the horizontal distance
between that spot on the limb pocket
and the reference string,
for the TOP LIMB.

Write this down in your log book.

Repeat for the bottom limb.
Write this down in your log book.


Now,
if this shoots WELL for you,
then...for most folks, you would be finished.

Now,
for the really picky people...

they will say that you have changed the bottom cam timing,
and
that limb angles have changed,
and
that the nocking point has also changed....

well,
that's technically, ALL true.

If you make a 1/16th turn adjustment on your limb bolt (up on top, in this case),
then...

technically,
what we have down is change the angle of the riser,
when you are at full draw.

When you change the angle of the riser at full draw,,
then you have TECHNICALLY,
also changed the relationship of the limb angle to the cam on bottom,
also at full draw.

If you only make/remove 1/8th turn off the top limb bolt
or
if you only make/remove 3/16ths of a turn off the top limb bolt,
I would not worry about the starting rotation position of the bottom cam.


If you shoot 90 meters (100 yard target shooting) on a regular basis,
then,
you might want to group tune again,
and confirm that your nocking point
and
your arrow rest elevation are set to the absolute best position.

I would leave the nocking point alone,
and group tune at your longest comfortable shooting distance,
and MAYBE tweak the arrow rest elevation,
to get the best possible long range groups.


----------



## Spurhunter

Perfect explanation, I understand! I'm one of the picky ones so I'll be going through the whole routine with pleasure. Thanks for the info pal!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hi everyone,

I just sent out emails to everyone that PMd me today.

Cheers!

Tim


----------



## BowTechCDR

BowTechCDR said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just sent out emails to everyone that PMd me today.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Tim


x2.


----------



## double o

Any more info people.


----------



## nuts&bolts

double o said:


> Any more info people.


Ask a question,
and I'll add it to the next revision.

Latest chapter is Chapter 12 - Back Tension.

The pdf in the Sticky on the General Section
has the newest version (includes Chapter 12).


----------



## DeepFried

I want a copy of this... My email is jacked up so PM me please... Ready to buy!


----------



## BowTechCDR

Hey nuts&bolts,

I am setting center shot on a friends bow and I looked in the guide as a reference and didn't see anything addressing initial center shot.

Any insight or tips on making initial center shot setting any easier? Currently, I use a long stabilizer as an initial center shot gauge and Modified French Tuning to fine tune.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

-Tim


----------



## nuts&bolts

DeepFried said:


> I want a copy of this... My email is jacked up so PM me please... Ready to buy!


No charge.

AT was nice enough to make this pdf file (nearly 4 MB)
into a sticky at the top of the General Discussion page.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457&referrerid=22477


You can download the entire file yourself.

BowtechCDR will also keep up the email list,
and send out updates to everyone that
has sent their email address to him,
via pm message.

So,
two ways to get your own free copy.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> Hey nuts&bolts,
> 
> I am setting center shot on a friends bow and I looked in the guide as a reference and didn't see anything addressing initial center shot.
> 
> Any insight or tips on making initial center shot setting any easier? Currently, I use a long stabilizer as an initial center shot gauge and Modified French Tuning to fine tune.
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> -Tim


Hello Tim:

To get the arrow rest roughly in about the correct place (just a starting position),
and..

assuming we have a cable guard...
assuming we have a Right Hand bow....

arrow parallel to the sight window (riser)
arrow centerline lined up under the limb bolts centerline...

and then, just move the arrow rest say 1/32nd to the left
(to account for any small amount of bow riser twist...if the shooter draws HARD into the wall)...

now,
have the shooter continue with Modified French Tuning,
and you will be all setup shortly.


----------



## BowTechCDR

Thanks Alan!


----------



## BowTechCDR

I am just pleased as punch this got 21,000+ views. 

Best stuff ever in here!!! Thanks Alan!!!!!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowTechCDR said:


> I am just pleased as punch this got 21,000+ views.
> 
> Best stuff ever in here!!! Thanks Alan!!!!!!!


Welcome.


Folks,
if you are a FINGERS SHOOTER....

there is a NEW *MINI-GUIDE*
for *FINGERS COMPOUND*
and
for *RECURVE SHOOTERS*.

Only 30 pages or so.
LOTS of photos.

*Send your email address via pm*
to BowtechCDR
and he will send it to you.


----------



## alleycatdad

OK, I gotta question...

With the Hoyt cam .5, which is more important from a tuning standpoint: static cam sych (cable/reference hole alignment) or draw stop timing?

Thanks!

Steve


----------



## nuts&bolts

alleycatdad said:


> OK, I gotta question...
> 
> With the Hoyt cam .5, which is more important from a tuning standpoint: static cam sych (cable/reference hole alignment) or draw stop timing?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Steve


Hello Steve:

Use the "JAVI" method.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=207391&referrerid=22477


We want the draw stops on the cams to hit the cables at the same time (synchronization)
and
we want the "correct" cam starting rotation position,
when the bow is at rest.


So,
the JAVI method,
in a nutshell.....

get the cables twisted up so you have the draw stops hitting the cables
at the same time, while the ATA is about 1/4-inch longer than factory spec.

You want the bowstring untwisted enough,
so that you are sure that the ATA is not influenced by the bowstring.

Then,
when the draw stops are hitting the cables at the same time,
then...
start twisting up the bowstring
to get to factory spec (draw board...tape measure reading = 1.75-inches LESS than the DL spec)


----------



## alleycatdad

I understand the process and I've followed it very carefully twice now on the same bow (05 ultra elite), while replacing Tina's strings.

Both times, I get perfect ATA, BH, DL, DW (as close as I can tell--cheap scale, but it's consistent), and draw stop timing, but the reference holes on the cams do not end up with a consistent relationship to the string--one is farther from the string/cable than the other. I can bring this in with a cable adjustment, but then I've messed with the draw stop timing. It's somewhat closer after re-timing the draw stops after the first 200 shots on the new cables and strings, but there is still an obvious difference re: the reference holes on the cams.

Seems I have to choose one, so which is more important as a starting place, or is it that critical at all, since the next step is creep tuning, then long range group tuning, each of which may add or subtract up to a turn or turn and a half to the control cable?

I understand the importance of having a consistant starting point for the final tune, but it seems that for this particular bow I'm gonna have to make a choice about where to start... the bow seems to be shooting really well.

Interestingly, my proelite came right in with this process, both reference marks and draw stops look good. 

Thanks!

Steve


----------



## nuts&bolts

alleycatdad said:


> I understand the process and I've followed it very carefully twice now on the same bow (05 ultra elite), while replacing Tina's strings.
> 
> Both times, I get perfect ATA, BH, DL, DW (as close as I can tell--cheap scale, but it's consistent), and draw stop timing, but the reference holes on the cams do not end up with a consistent relationship to the string--one is farther from the string/cable than the other. I can bring this in with a cable adjustment, but then I've messed with the draw stop timing. It's somewhat closer after re-timing the draw stops after the first 200 shots on the new cables and strings, but there is still an obvious difference re: the reference holes on the cams.
> 
> Seems I have to choose one, so which is more important as a starting place, or is it that critical at all, since the next step is creep tuning, then long range group tuning, each of which may add or subtract up to a turn or turn and a half to the control cable?
> 
> I understand the importance of having a consistant starting point for the final tune, but it seems that for this particular bow I'm gonna have to make a choice about where to start... the bow seems to be shooting really well.
> 
> Interestingly, my proelite came right in with this process, both reference marks and draw stops look good.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Steve



Hello Steve:

Gotta put the bowstring
and
gotta put the control cable
and
gotta put the buss cable 
onto a stretching device
(1/4-inch posts or ratchet strap hooks)
and stretch to 100 lbs of pressure.

Get the string and the cables to within 1/2 twist of factory spec,
and usually...

everything works out correctly.

Can you post up a picture of Tina's bow?

Entire bow picture.
Closeup of the top cam.
Closeup of the bottom cam.

I just picked up a 2006 Hoyt ProElite with Spirals,
and
followed this procedure
(stretched all rigging to 100 lbs and twisted to factory spec)
and

the draw stop timing was perfect (stops hit the cables at the same instant)
and
the cam starting rotation position (top and bottom) were symmetrical
(bottom limb was perfectly centered on the "tuning marks" on the bottom cam).


----------



## alleycatdad

I spent the last three late nights in my (utility trailer) workshop; I'm not sure I can get out to get pix tonite and stay married but I will get some for you as soon as I can.

I'm also not sure I want to pull everything off again since it's shooting pretty well and she wants to shoot it--I'll probably wait and revisit this in a month when our indoor season is over. I WILL have to do it eventually, though, since it's bugging the heck outta me.

I will say that the bow shoots much better and draws much more smoothly with the new strings, even if it's slightly out of time.

How does your bow look once you've creep- and 60yd group- tuned your cables?


Steve

Edit: I have a pretty good spot to use the drawboard winch to stretch the cables, but I'm wondering how to use ratchet strap hooks without pulling out all the twists? Gotta think on that one...

S


----------



## nuts&bolts

alleycatdad said:


> I spent the last three late nights in my (utility trailer) workshop; I'm not sure I can get out to get pix tonite and stay married but I will get some for you as soon as I can.
> 
> I'm also not sure I want to pull everything off again since it's shooting pretty well and she wants to shoot it--I'll probably wait and revisit this in a month when our indoor season is over. I WILL have to do it eventually, though, since it's bugging the heck outta me.
> 
> I will say that the bow shoots much better and draws much more smoothly with the new strings, even if it's slightly out of time.
> 
> How does your bow look once you've creep- and 60yd group- tuned your cables?
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> Edit: I have a pretty good spot to use the drawboard winch to stretch the cables, but I'm wondering how to use ratchet strap hooks without pulling out all the twists? Gotta think on that one...
> 
> S



Steve:

If the bow is shooting well for Tina,
then the bow is JUST FINE.

What matters is how the bow shoots.
The purpose for creep tuning,
is to find the sweet spot,
for the SHOOTER.

Sometimes,
the sweet spot will be slightly outside the timing marks.


I am running some experiments on some custom rigging
on the new to me, 2006 Hoyt ProElite.

Started as a cam.5 with 70 lb limbs.
Prior owner switched to Spiral 5.0 cams.
Weight dropped to 65 lbs-ish.

I am short stringing the bow,
and increased the ATA,
so the new MAX draw weight is in the high 50's.
Current draw weight is 55 lbs, with the limb pockets about 1/4-inch out.

Short stringing the bow, with the longer than factory ATA,
has the *holding weight somewhere between 25-30 lbs*.

Still tweaking the string for the perfect DL.

Boy, the ProElite is a stiff riser.
With yoke cable tuning,
the ProElite is tuning near dead center, for arrow rest centershot.

When I'm done,
I put together a draw force curve.


----------



## alleycatdad

Once again, I find myself at the point of "shut up and shoot", so that's what we're gonna do. First spot shoot since the new strings is tonite, so we will see!

Thanks again!

Steve


----------



## Mickels

Nice


----------



## bfoot

Have not read all posts but save time and download Nuts and Bolts tuning guide at the beginning of this forum. Best thing since sliced bread.

bob


----------



## Joe Pf

If you want to check the draw stops on your bow and shoot fingers, can you use a draw board to get the correct setup? It seems that the rope would not replicate the 2 fingers under draw angle and it wouldn't work out. Should I nock an arrow and draw back and have someone watch the stops carefully to see when they hit with the actual angles I'll be shooting with?

Great info here !

Joe Pf


----------



## Frank2126

Double thumbs up for this thread.


----------



## Joe Pf

I just remembered, I have the same question on the nock travel test. Would I use a 1.5 inch wide hook to simulate my 2 fingers under and place it on the string under the nocksets?
Joe


----------



## cgs1967

*Help Tuning Bow*

I recently sold my Hoyt Maxxis 31 and purchased an Elite Pure for hunting. I have never tuned any of my bows before and I'm not sure why you need to. After reading the instructions on this blog it is now obvious that you need to. I am wondering if there is anyone out there there lives in Ohio and would help me tune my bow? Thank you for the great blog and I look forward to hearing from some of you.


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## hunt123

cgs1967 said:


> I recently sold my Hoyt Maxxis 31 and purchased an Elite Pure for hunting. I have never tuned any of my bows before and I'm not sure why you need to. After reading the instructions on this blog it is now obvious that you need to. I am wondering if there is anyone out there there lives in Ohio and would help me tune my bow? Thank you for the great blog and I look forward to hearing from some of you.


Baldyhunter (AT name) in Youngstown (or Berlin Center) is a great tuner if you ever get over that way.


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## bcfozzy

Wow, what a long read  Thanks for the great wealth of information!

I have a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Element that has been shooting pretty good. I recently tried some broadheads and quickly realized that the tune could use some work. I decided to try bare shaft tuning following the instructions for bare shaft tuning in this thread. I stared with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched group. I turned the left yoke 2 turns and took two turns off the right yoke.(single turn each time) Bare shafts now are in line with fletched group but impact high, nock low. I then turnes the buss cable two turns and still have nock low bare shaft high at 20 yards.
Am I going in the right direction?


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## nuts&bolts

bcfozzy said:


> Wow, what a long read  Thanks for the great wealth of information!
> 
> I have a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Element that has been shooting pretty good. I recently tried some broadheads and quickly realized that the tune could use some work. I decided to try bare shaft tuning following the instructions for bare shaft tuning in this thread. I stared with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched group. I turned the left yoke 2 turns and took two turns off the right yoke.(single turn each time) Bare shafts now are in line with fletched group but impact high, nock low. I then turnes the buss cable two turns and still have nock low bare shaft high at 20 yards.
> Am I going in the right direction?


Bareshafts are HITTING ABOVE the fletched arrows.

You did not say what type of arrow rest.

So,
I would say the bottom limb is working too hard.
TRY taking off 1/2 turn on the bottom limb.

Shoot at LEAST two bareshafts, and confirm that BOTH bareshafts are grouping together,
and hitting HIGH, above the fletched arrows.

Continue to take 1/8th turns off the bottom limb bolt.


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## nuts&bolts

bcfozzy said:


> Wow, what a long read  Thanks for the great wealth of information!
> 
> I have a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Element that has been shooting pretty good. I recently tried some broadheads and quickly realized that the tune could use some work. I decided to try bare shaft tuning following the instructions for bare shaft tuning in this thread. I stared with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched group. I turned the left yoke 2 turns and took two turns off the right yoke.(single turn each time) Bare shafts now are in line with fletched group but impact high, nock low. I then turnes the buss cable two turns and still have nock low bare shaft high at 20 yards.
> Am I going in the right direction?


Since you have the Carbon Element,
I would also return the BUSS CABLE to the original twists/original length.

Bareshafts hitting HIGH,
I would ADD TWISTS to the control cable.


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## bcfozzy

nuts&bolts said:


> Bareshafts are HITTING ABOVE the fletched arrows.
> 
> You did not say what type of arrow rest.
> 
> So,
> I would say the bottom limb is working too hard.
> TRY taking off 1/2 turn on the bottom limb.
> 
> Shoot at LEAST two bareshafts, and confirm that BOTH bareshafts are grouping together,
> and hitting HIGH, above the fletched arrows.
> 
> Continue to take 1/8th turns off the bottom limb bolt.





nuts&bolts said:


> Since you have the Carbon Element,
> I would also return the BUSS CABLE to the original twists/original length.
> 
> Bareshafts hitting HIGH,
> I would ADD TWISTS to the control cable.


That's awesome, thanks for the info, I'll give it some more time hopefully tonight.

Sorry I should have given more info on my set up.. I'm using a QAD ultra HDX

When I was shooting bare shaft I did use two and would shoot several times before making any adjustments just be sure.


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## Yamahog12

Bnbfishin said:


> Holy crap Nuts n Bolts how do I get all that to print so I have it for future reference?


Hilight the post, right click, select copy. Open a new Word document, right click, select paste. Save the file to you computer.


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## Rlaw11

Im just gonna ship my bow to nuts and bolts! lol
You da man!


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## jdoc

Nuts and bolts, your in depth explanation of bow tuning has been a great read with lots of great information. I cant wait to put it to use on a new bow! Thanks and i hope to have some questions for you in the future. :cheers:


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## nvrsatisfied

there should be a warning before this thread that states---MIND BLOWING; BEWARE NEW GUYS---, because i dropped all my crayons about 3 pages in....LOL

i just recently got back into things since my son has started shooting. looks like i may have to do some tinkering on our setups?!

GREAT INFO, ONE STOP PLACE FOR IT ALL! great work nuts and bolts, Bowtech CDR, etc....


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## g_whitcomb

Does anyone know nuts&bolts address? I want to move and have him for my NEIGHBOR! lol!


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## MortenKnudsen

Hi Nuts&Bolts,

thanks for a great thread and such an enormous amount of knowledge you share with us 

I have read for days and is currently trying to tune in my Bowtech Insanity CPX 70-80# with spine 300 arrows at 70 pounds
It seems as if I have a little downward nock travel - the nock drops a bit.
Cam sync should be ok, 
arrow spine should be ok, 
nock level should be ok, 
centershot is correct

I have tried to bareshaft tune and that looks allright - with an itzi bitzy nock drop.
Groups are fine horisontally, but with a vertical spread 
Before I try out tiller tuning, I would appreciate if you could take a look at these two recordings I made - is it a cam sync issue? - the arrow drops a bit after the launcher has fallen..
I would really appreciate just a short comment on the recordings (eventhough the quality is poor) - it might be the nock height still too low?

recorded at 480 frames per second:
http://youtu.be/CRPyVcJVm9Y

recorded at 1000 frames per second:
http://youtu.be/1J5jgdjoOsI
(the camera is tilted at bit down to the left so it seems as if im shooting downwards)

BR
Morten Knudsen, Denmark


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## 68ymarta

On post #65 there is a picture on draw board. What is that blue thing pulling the string and pen attached to it? Some kind of handyman tool?


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## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> On post #65 there is a picture on draw board. What is that blue thing pulling the string and pen attached to it? Some kind of handyman tool?


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## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> On post #65 there is a picture on draw board. What is that blue thing pulling the string and pen attached to it? Some kind of handyman tool?


Nock Travel measuring device built by Old Buck.

Some aluminum flat bar stock (long skinny cross bar).

The pen holder is a two piece device.

2 flat corner brackets.

Block of wood drilled for a pencil or your pen.
Add a threaded insert and then a knob with threaded bolt, as a lock down for the pen/pencil.

The large block could be wood or aluminum stock.
Two short pieces of drill rod or aluminum rod.

Cut a rabbet on the bottom for the cross bar.


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## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> On post #65 there is a picture on draw board. What is that blue thing pulling the string and pen attached to it? Some kind of handyman tool?


So,
it is a custom built pen holder
to measure the "vertical nock travel" for a bow.

You can see if the pen draws a line that is FLAT
or
if the pen draws a line with up and down curves,
as you go from brace to full draw.


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## 68ymarta

So, what is the fix if the pen draws a line with up and down curves,
as I go from brace to full draw. 

Limbs working uneven??


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## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> So, what is the fix if the pen draws a line with up and down curves,
> as I go from brace to full draw.
> 
> Limbs working uneven??


Max out both limb bolts on your compound bow first.
Then,
remove the same number of turns from both limb bolts.

Now,
put the arrow rest at the factory centershot position.

If you don't know this measurement,
then,
move the arrow rest sideways,
until you have the arrow DEAD straight ahead,
parallel to your front stabilizer.

Start with KITCHEN SINK TUNING.

Finish with CREEP TUNING.

See POST #5 for Kitchen Sink Tuning,
in this thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

See POST #15 for Creep Tuning
in the same thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning


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## km04

nuts&bolts,

You, Sir, are a wealth of knowledge. I have been in the shooting sports for a good part of my life, but I am new to the sport of bow hunting. The questions asked by the OP were very good questions and you gave very detailed answers and I would like to thank you for that.


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## AngelRa

Subscribed


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## cajun_man

Great thread.


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## chey2guy

Hi, this thread has been a great read. Is Tech still emailing out the updated "book"? I had a question, what kind of issues can you run into if you tune your bow with a lower draw weight than what you want to shoot with permanently?


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## ctownshooter

subscribed


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## tripleb2431

Tagged


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## db102550

Saved.


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## Rollie83

Saved for later.


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## Extreme vft17

ttt


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## MNsticker

Tagged


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## wolbear

Bnbfishin said:


> Holy crap Nuts n Bolts how do I get all that to print so I have it for future reference?


Simply go to the saved thread at the top of the page in Gen archery Discussion and save it, then print it like I did! Be sure to print in color and have ALOT of paper ready.


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## blackstallion

tagged


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## Brandon42166

Think this deserves a bump


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## 10RingAllDay

I just read all 20 some pages and you guys are the best! Thanks for all the great info!


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## 68ymarta

When I measure arrow rest centershot in Hoyt does that 13/16 mean that it is measured inside of the riser to the center of the arrow shaft?


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## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> When I measure arrow rest centershot in Hoyt does that 13/16 mean that it is measured inside of the riser to the center of the arrow shaft?


Yes.


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## tidy313

Save for later


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## nogoodreezen

,,,, , , , : book , , b;h o) ,9,SZEEZS,,


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## nogoodreezen

Wsse SSWW?!!s!!!?sReaways wae??sÀw!!z!dying,+;? %


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## trend.ab

I am starting to set up my bow from scratch according to the awesome book you put together - thank you for the great instructions.
When setting my nock point, I understand I should make it perpendicular to the string so that the arrow runs through the mounting hole of the arrow rest, then adjust the rest accordingly.
However, my QAD Hunter drop away rest can not be set so low that the "mounting hole condition" is fullfilled. I can make the arrow perpendicular to the string, but then it crosses the raiser abover the mounting hole.
Is my nock point too high in this case?
I have a PSE DNA SP.
Thank you for your advice!


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## TradTech

Question. When twisting the control cable to adjust the upper cam timing, should you add a twist or remove a twist to the buss cable? I've been told you must balance what you do in order to maintain sync. Feedback is most appreciated.


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## nuts&bolts

TradTech said:


> Question. When twisting the control cable to adjust the upper cam timing, should you add a twist or remove a twist to the buss cable? I've been told you must balance what you do in order to maintain sync. Feedback is most appreciated.


When you understand what each cable does....then use each cable to your best advantage.

I say tweak each cable separately for max desired effect...regardless of how it looks.
THEN

When you have the correct combo of OUT OF SPEC lengths ON PURPOSE...

Have a new CUSTOM set of cables built to match.

See LadyBowhunter12 thread to understand the power of tuning way beyond spec lengths.
Tuning away from spec lengths longer or shorter based on RESULTS....not shoulda or coulda.


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## johndoe

Tag


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## hossa1881

Tag


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## Pablom

Tag


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## CritterBuster

Thanks..... Tagged


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## ryans127

Tagged


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## 4rcgoat

nuts&bolts said:


> DRAFT TABLE OF CONTENTS
> 
> THE "NUTS & BOLTS" OF ARCHERY
> 
> (Last time edited...Oct 2009)
> 
> Chapter 1 - All About Sights
> Chapter 2 - All About Stabilzers
> Chapter 3 - Arrow Rests
> Chapter 4 - Arrow Spine
> Chapter 5 - Arrow Tuning
> Chapter 6 - Back Tension
> Chapter 7 - Back Tension and Releases
> Chapter 8 - Balance - How Much Do I Really Need?
> Chapter 9 - Bow Tuning
> Chapter 10 - Building a Bowstring
> Chapter 11 - Building YOUR Arrows
> Chapter 12 - Glossary


Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


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## nuts&bolts

4rcgoat said:


> Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


poor man's bow vise.

Block of wood. Drill a 5/16ths diameter hole. Purchase a fine thread 5/16ths bolt (5/16-24). Add a washer and you have a cheap bow vise
to hold your bow. Thread the bolt into the front stabilizer hole.







Now, you can do an easy check for your bubble level on your sight.

FIRST, get the riser vertical.



Now, just check that your sight bubble is dead center.


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## nuts&bolts

4rcgoat said:


> Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


A draw board is just a boat winch, and a backbone to hold your bow riser.
One end, you attach the boat winch.
Other end, you attach a 1/2 - inch pipe, mounted to a floor flange.

The backbone can be a 2x4 say 6 feet long.
The backbone can be a metal channel....unistrut or superstrut.

Very handy device to hold your bow at full draw, so you can do all kinds of checking.
You can check draw length.
You can check to see that your drop away arrow rest comes to the full up position, about 1-inch from full draw.
You can check draw weight, and holding weight, if you use a scale.
You can check to see if your bowstring feeds straight onto the top cam of your bow...or, if your bowstring is pulling sideways off the top cam...(top axle is low on one side, when at full draw).



1/2-inch pipe, mounted to a floor flange, and the flange mounted to a block of 2x4. Unistrut nuts hold the block of wood to the metal unistrut channel.









Good idea to have a backup loop of paracord, which connects the bowstring to the adjustable chain link. If the d-loop lets go, the paracord loop still connects your bowstring
to the draw board hook.


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## nuts&bolts

Portable two level workshop. It's a plywood box, with an upper and lower level. I use this box, as my work surface,
when I do seminars where I can drive to the seminar.











With these tools, I can tune anything, build strings/cables, build a frankenbow....whatever you can imagine.


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## nuts&bolts

16 foot long workbench. Two 8 foot long workbenches side by side.
At the far end, is a boat winch. Very handy for stretching a string or a cable. Especially a single cam bowstring, since it's over 80-inches long in some cases.
So, I have a very accurate 100 lb scale, that I use to measure a string or a cable. Measuring a string or cable is always done at 100 lbs of tension.


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## nuts&bolts

My two level plywood box, workbench.
Setting up a Strother Moxie. I have that unistrut rail again. I have the BCY micro stretcher, but mounted with the hooks hanging straight down.



People use this heavy duty angle bracket and two threaded hooks setup, to STRETCH a bowstring or a cable, during string or cable construction.

I turn the unistrut metal channel sideways, so the top of the channel is facing me.
Then, I rotate the hooks, so the hooks face the floor. Now, I can hang up a bow by the bowstring.

I snap on a line level to the bowstring.
I adjust ONE hook shorter or longer, until the bowstring is DEAD horizontal.

Now, I can hang an arrow, and set the d-loop position for a dead vertical arrow (arrow points straight down, and touches the arrow rest arm)
or
Now, I can hang an arrow, and set the d-loop position for 1/8th inch HIGHER than dead level (arrow points straight down, and I have a 1/8th inch gap between the arrow tube and the arrow rest arm).



GRAVITY is your friend.


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## nuts&bolts

Draw length for your bow, and measuring on a draw board.

So, you measure from the pivot point of the grip (deepest part of the curve on the grip....no, NOT the berger hole...no NOT the front of the riser...no NOT the back of the riser).
So, on a draw board, this means the spot where the pipe for your draw board, touches the grip area of the riser.
This way, if you have a wooden wrap around grip, this reduces the bow draw length.
This way, if you used to have a wooden wrap around grip, and you remove the grip, and shoot off the riser, you just GREW the draw length.
Maybe you normally shoot off the riser, but you just added grip tape. IT's thin, but NOT zero thickness. You just SHRUNK the draw length.

So, see why measuring the DRAW length from the BERGER holes, just does not work.
Gotta measure from the pivot point, like THIS.



Well, you gotta MEASURE from the spot where the pipe of the draw board, touches your GRIP....BUT, you need to start your measurement at 1.75-inches.

So, I built a hook ruler, where the piece of wood lines up with 1-3/4 inches, so you can get a direct reading for DRAW LENGTH, with this HOOK ruler.



Draw length for my bow is 28-3/4 inches.



I made a right angle hook (like a bookshelf bracket/end), and clamped it to the metal ruler.


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## nuts&bolts

If you ever decide to try to make your own bowstrings and cables...

this "kite string holder" is great for beginners.



A bowstring is just 10 loops of string material, wrapped around two goal posts (string jig) to form a 20 strand bowstring.
A bowstring is just 12 loops of string material, wrapped around two goal posts (string jig) to form a 24 strand bowstring.

Pretty simple, right?

Well, to get ZERO peep rotation, the FIRST thing you need to master, is to get the 10 loops wrapped around the two goal posts (string jig) at EXACTLY the same layout tension.
So, I usually just use my hand, and squeeze the bowstring material spool between my thumb and middle finger. As you move the spool around the two goal posts, the spool spins like a fishing reel
and the plastic gets kinda hot on my fingers.

So, found this KITE STRING holder, with the wing nut and the spring, and the bronze bushings for laying up the loops of string material...the first step in building a bowstring or a cable.









I didn't build this...I purchased this kite string holder from the AT classifieds.
Works GREAT.


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## nuts&bolts

4rcgoat said:


> Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


Engineer by trade. Retired some years ago. So, in the DIY section, someone came up with the idea of the $20 DIY Pipe Clamp bow press. These are not my builds,
just pictures of ingenious stuff that OTHER folks have built. Home made bowpresses.







So, the pipe clamp press has a fixed jaw, and a moving jaw. The moving jaw likes to bind, cuz the fingers are LONG, and the pipe backbone is down low.
So, this fella, came up with the idea of using an eye bolt, to provide a sliding surface and to minimize binding.
Ingenious.

Some build the "fingers" out of softwood. Some build out of clear hardwood. Some use a single 2x4. Others used a doubled up 2x4. Folks who can weld, do the fingers in metal.
LOTS of ways to do this.


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## nuts&bolts

LARGER diameter "slider pipe" over the primary backbone pipe. Slider pipe is on the moving jaw/finger side of the Pipe Clamp bow press.


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## nuts&bolts

The slider pipe needs to be a sliding fit. TECHNICALLY 3/4-inch pipe SHOULD fit inside 1-inch pipe...but, you will need to ream out the inside of the 1-inch pipe
and remove about 0.003-inches for a sliding fit. A little wax or lube, makes the slider pipe glide over the primary backbone pipe for the $20 DIY Pipe CLamp Press.















*1-inch of CHERRY hardwood for the fingers.*


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## nuts&bolts

*This is really innovative.*


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## nuts&bolts

4rcgoat said:


> Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


SInce you are finish carpenter/cabinet maker/woodworker...you can fabricate nearly anything you would ever need to work on your bows.
Just send me a pm, and we can talk and come up with all kinds of things for you to build/design...to make working on your own bows easier, more accurate, more enjoyable.
I just love building stuff.


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## 4rcgoat

nuts&bolts said:


> SInce you are finish carpenter/cabinet maker/woodworker...you can fabricate nearly anything you would ever need to work on your bows.
> Just send me a pm, and we can talk and come up with all kinds of things for you to build/design...to make working on your own bows easier, more accurate, more enjoyable.
> I just love building stuff.


Well, I asked for it! This is all brilliant stuff and thank you for taking this time for me greatly appreciated, my wheels will be turning for quite some time. I'm somewhat new to archery and even newer to experimenting with my own equipment but would rather learn and understand the fundamentals rather than have someone do it for me,this will help me tremendously, sorry I posted this so late but I do thank you for your very thorough response.


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## nuts&bolts

4rcgoat said:


> Well, I asked for it! This is all brilliant stuff and thank you for taking this time for me greatly appreciated, my wheels will be turning for quite some time. I'm somewhat new to archery and even newer to experimenting with my own equipment but would rather learn and understand the fundamentals rather than have someone do it for me,this will help me tremendously, sorry I posted this so late but I do thank you for your very thorough response.


Send me a pm. We can talk on the phone, and once you understand how the parts of a compound bow works,
then you will be better able to design your own tuning gear/tools, to work on the basics, and beyond the basics.


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## watasha

tagged


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## bbell

Nuts&bolts, I have been reading through the forum while trying to tune my bow. I am trying to correct cam lean. I see a lot of talk about adjusting the cam lean on the top cam but not too much about fixing it on the bottom cam. I assume both need to be in line with the string for the bow to shoot properly. Would it be best to adjust the top and bottom cam? Thanks.


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## nuts&bolts

bbell said:


> Nuts&bolts, I have been reading through the forum while trying to tune my bow. I am trying to correct cam lean. I see a lot of talk about adjusting the cam lean on the top cam but not too much about fixing it on the bottom cam. I assume both need to be in line with the string for the bow to shoot properly. Would it be best to adjust the top and bottom cam? Thanks.


If you have TWO yoke cables....then, definitely, play with the top axle yoke leg end loops, and play with the bottom axle yoke legs.
Twin cam bows have two sets of buss cables.

If you have ONE yoke cable...hybrid cam bow, PSE, HOYT, etc...then, with only yoke leg end loops attached to the top axle, then, you can only adjust the top axle, to fine tune left-right misses.

If you have ZERO yoke cables..like a binary cam no yoke cable bow, then, you have no easy way to adjust limb tip twist.


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## nuts&bolts

bbell said:


> Nuts&bolts, I have been reading through the forum while trying to tune my bow. I am trying to correct cam lean. I see a lot of talk about adjusting the cam lean on the top cam but not too much about fixing it on the bottom cam. I assume both need to be in line with the string for the bow to shoot properly. Would it be best to adjust the top and bottom cam? Thanks.


Tuning cam lean, is really tuning limb tip twist. WHY tune limb tip twist? Cuz, IF you have yoke cable legs, you have the option to fine tune the limb tip twist at full draw. The d-loop is closer to the top axle, so if you have ONE set of yoke legs (attached to the top axle), by all means, experiment with tuning TOP limb tip twist, to fine tune your left-right misses.


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## bbell

nuts&bolts said:


> Tuning cam lean, is really tuning limb tip twist. WHY tune limb tip twist? Cuz, IF you have yoke cable legs, you have the option to fine tune the limb tip twist at full draw. The d-loop is closer to the top axle, so if you have ONE set of yoke legs (attached to the top axle), by all means, experiment with tuning TOP limb tip twist, to fine tune your left-right misses.


This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.


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## alaska_av8r

Regarding bow scopes and clarifies for fuzzy images, since a clarifier will not help with sight pins, What can a pin shooter do if the experience the same problem?


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## nuts&bolts

alaska_av8r said:


> Regarding bow scopes and clarifies for fuzzy images, since a clarifier will not help with sight pins, What can a pin shooter do if the experience the same problem?


If pins are fuzzy, you need a verifier. Verifier is like reading glasses, when the newspaper is fuzzy, when trying to read a book, the pages are fuzzy. Clarifier is like your glasses when you drive a car, so you can see the road. The clarifier peep clears up the out of focus image, when you have a SCOPE lens. Just like a telescope, you need the EYEPIECE in front of your eye, to make the telescope work...images in focus. A VERIFIER is like a magnifying glass, so you can read the fine print on a legal document. VERIFIER is a one piece system. CLARIFIER is a two piece system, meaning the CLARIFIER peep sight, in combination with a scope lens.


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## hunter11

Tagged....tuning


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## Irish Sitka

Bet Alan covered this already above but have a look anyway!

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3962634


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## JLighty

Good thread.


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## SDMac

Wow. What a great thread. Thank you guys for all the work and time. You guys rock! I was always under the impression that once you had your center shot set, you never touched it again. I have always just adjusted my windage on my sight. Going to be using this guide from now on. Thanks again!!!!!!!!


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## SDMac

Anyone know what happened to the sticky on this thread? Or where I can find the download for the book? I downloaded it on one of my computers, but want to download it again on a different computer.


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## nuts&bolts

SDMac said:


> Anyone know what happened to the sticky on this thread? Or where I can find the download for the book? I downloaded it on one of my computers, but want to download it again on a different computer.


Original 2010 edition.

http://archeryhistory.com/archerytalk/The_Nuts&Bolts_of_Archery.pdf


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## SDMac

Thank you N&B !!!


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## SpeedStar

nuts&bolts said:


> Original 2010 edition.
> 
> http://archeryhistory.com/archerytalk/The_Nuts&Bolts_of_Archery.pdf


Thanks Allan, is there a newer version or supplemental updates?


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## Oncorhynchus

tagged


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## sirtreysuf

Awesome thread!


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## nuts&bolts

Here is my updated 2012 edition of my FREE Guide to Shooting and Tuning Compound Bows.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiuvta0rytqyfur/Nuts & Bolts Of Archery 2012 Updated version.pdf?dl=0

In the bottom left corner, you can see the edition date. So, I added more material at the end of Chapter 5, for the 2012 update. The extra material starts on Chapter 5, page 20 and continues to page 37 (Chapter 5).


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## zotparkerm

Thanks, Alan
Tagged


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## jjenks

There's a app called Apptitune download it. It covers most of basic tuning


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## Continuous

I have a question for the great nuts&bolts I have a drop away limbdriver rest I have never paper tuned or walk back tuned with this rest. Is it still something that should be done? Now, I know everyone will ask what my setup is and I will give that. I shoot a 2018 Bowtech Realm, Trophy Ridge React 5 sight, Limbdriver drop away rest, 10" Doinker with 4 oz out front and a 6" Doinker with 10oz on the side. I am not sure if my form is perfect I have never really sat down with a coach or anything. I am trying to get more involved and shooting 3D, Indoor, Outdoor, and Hunting. In 3D I am trying to stick within the Bowhunter classes. Any feedback from anyone would be greatly appreciated.


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## nuts&bolts

Continuous said:


> I have a question for the great nuts&bolts I have a drop away limbdriver rest I have never paper tuned or walk back tuned with this rest. Is it still something that should be done? Now, I know everyone will ask what my setup is and I will give that. I shoot a 2018 Bowtech Realm, Trophy Ridge React 5 sight, Limbdriver drop away rest, 10" Doinker with 4 oz out front and a 6" Doinker with 10oz on the side. I am not sure if my form is perfect I have never really sat down with a coach or anything. I am trying to get more involved and shooting 3D, Indoor, Outdoor, and Hunting. In 3D I am trying to stick within the Bowhunter classes. Any feedback from anyone would be greatly appreciated.


I teach results based tuning. Several methods for tuning the bow. Tuning the shooter also has an impact on your results (group size at all distances). So, let's start with a 20 yard fletched group, say three fletched arrows and then, fire two bareshafts at the fletched group (total of five arrows). Three fletched and two bareshafts (arrows with no vanes). Take a photo, and we can start from there.

Example.



















Yeah, he only fired one bareshaft. He was not a believer in shooting bareshafts, and had never ever fired a bareshaft. He didn't see the point, no reason to, he said. I said, humor me, the bareshaft is a diagnostic tool. Helps me see where the problem is. So, after we were done, here are his new fletched arrow results at 20 yards.










He did my stress test at the full 20 yards. First person to try this. ONE fletched arrow in his quiver. I usually have folks fire that one fletched arrow for 30 shots in a row. He stopped at ONLY 21 shots in row. 1/4-inch grouping at 20 yards. EACH arrow went through the exact same hole. At 20 yards. Yeah, happy camper.


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## Continuous

Ok I will try this I will need to pick up some bare arrows of the ones I shoot


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## nuts&bolts

Continuous said:


> Ok I will try this I will need to pick up some bare arrows of the ones I shoot


If you fletch your own arrows, just strip the vanes off of two of your arrows. If you don't fletch your own arrows, just strip off the vanes on two of your arrows, and then pay your pro shop to refletch your arrows.


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## ktg

nuts&bolts said:


> *1b) What does adding or removing twists to/from your string do to the ATA of your bow?*
> 
> Adding a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
> is PRIMARILY for fine tuning the draw length of the bow,
> in order to tweak how "tight" the sight pattern looks
> or
> in order to tweak how "loose" the sight pattern looks.
> 
> The "sight pattern" is how fast and herky jerky the pin dances around,
> when you are holding on the target bullseye.
> 
> ADD a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
> and the sight pattern will dance around pretty quickly,
> in a tight pattern, say in a pattern about half the size of the bullseye at 20 yards.
> 
> REMOVE a twist or two or three or four to the bowstring,
> and the sight pattern will swing and slosh around like stirring molasses,
> in a loose, wavy pattern, say in a pattern about the entire size of the bullseye at 20 yards,
> or even slightly larger.


Can someone explain the physics of why this happens?


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## zotparkerm

OK, I'll take a shot at this and Alan or anyone else can correct me if I am wrong 
I think it is probably more physiology than physics, but similar either way.
I tend to look at it as an overall system in tension (or, maybe, compression).
Assuming decent and duplicate form between DL+ (slightly long) and DL- (slightly short), there will be more "tension" in the system in the DL- condition because you are now drawing into the wall. In the DL+ condition you are just short of or barely reaching the wall.
Under greater tension, the system is somewhat analogous to a guitar string, more tension = faster (higher pitch) vibration.
Thoughts?


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## Farcanal

I used nuts and bolts guides to tune my old Martin jaguar with fixed draw length modules to increase the draw length slighty to suit me and it helped a lot. To short a draw length and you can’t find a repeatable anchor point and your bow arm is pushing harder as you try to get an anchor and the pin moves around. Too long a draw length and you pull the string around you face. You can absolutely feel the difference when you adjust even a quarter inch. The pin just sits on target.


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## nuts&bolts

zotparkerm said:


> OK, I'll take a shot at this and Alan or anyone else can correct me if I am wrong
> I think it is probably more physiology than physics, but similar either way.
> I tend to look at it as an overall system in tension (or, maybe, compression).
> Assuming decent and duplicate form between DL+ (slightly long) and DL- (slightly short), there will be more "tension" in the system in the DL- condition because you are now drawing into the wall. In the DL+ condition you are just short of or barely reaching the wall.
> Under greater tension, the system is somewhat analogous to a guitar string, more tension = faster (higher pitch) vibration.
> Thoughts?


Shoot a rifle off hand, versus 
shoot a rifle with a sling, versus 
shoot a rifle with a sling and a shooting jacket while lying prone on a mat.

Physiology and alignment of the shoulders (yes, your collarbones), and dial in the bow draw length to work with your shooting stance, for best results. Not as simple as DL+ or DL-. Gotta look at the shooting stance, namely put a broomstick behind your shoulder blades and compare the alignment of the broomstick versus your arrow at full draw. Same fella in the picture. ONE shooting stance is a more stable shooting foundation. OTHER shooting stance is much less stable for shooting consistency.


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## nuts&bolts

Farcanal said:


> I used nuts and bolts guides to tune my old Martin jaguar with fixed draw length modules to increase the draw length slighty to suit me and it helped a lot. To short a draw length and you can’t find a repeatable anchor point and your bow arm is pushing harder as you try to get an anchor and the pin moves around. Too long a draw length and you pull the string around you face. You can absolutely feel the difference when you adjust even a quarter inch. The pin just sits on target.


Very well done. Yes, if your structure is solid, then, you can EASILY feel the difference at full draw, with a 1/4-inch change in the DL...you learned well. Tweak the DL in between DL module sizes...for best results.


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## hunter11

Tag for N&B tuning :thumbs_up


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## ktg

nuts&bolts said:


> Shoot a rifle off hand, versus
> shoot a rifle with a sling, versus
> shoot a rifle with a sling and a shooting jacket while lying prone on a mat.
> 
> Physiology and alignment of the shoulders (yes, your collarbones), and dial in the bow draw length to work with your shooting stance, for best results. Not as simple as DL+ or DL-. Gotta look at the shooting stance, namely put a broomstick behind your shoulder blades and compare the alignment of the broomstick versus your arrow at full draw. Same fella in the picture. ONE shooting stance is a more stable shooting foundation. OTHER shooting stance is much less stable for shooting consistency.


I see. Thank you.


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## prodefiant34

tagged


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## juanma666

Hello, nuts & bolts's and other forum partners.
I found this thread by chance ...

I have been reading this thread for hours ... many definitions are difficult for me to understand, due to my ignorance of the language, but I can assure you that I have clarified many doubts that I had and it is helping me to improve my shooting technique, setting point of the material and especially learn in a general way with everything related to archery.

Just thank the good work and help provided altruistically.
And hope that the translator is explicit enough to convey my gratitude.


Best regards.
Juanma.


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## nuts&bolts

juanma666 said:


> Hello, nuts & bolts's and other forum partners.
> I found this thread by chance ...
> 
> I have been reading this thread for hours ... many definitions are difficult for me to understand, due to my ignorance of the language, but I can assure you that I have clarified many doubts that I had and it is helping me to improve my shooting technique, setting point of the material and especially learn in a general way with everything related to archery.
> 
> Just thank the good work and help provided altruistically.
> And hope that the translator is explicit enough to convey my gratitude.
> 
> 
> Best regards.
> Juanma.


Bienvenidos. Mi español escrito no es muy bueno.

Glad you like the thread. I have written a book (free) that goes along with the questions and answers in the thread.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiuvta0rytqyfur/Nuts & Bolts Of Archery 2012 Updated version.pdf?dl=0


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## juanma666

nuts&bolts said:


> Bienvenidos. Mi español escrito no es muy bueno.
> 
> Glad you like the thread. I have written a book (free) that goes along with the questions and answers in the thread.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiuvta0rytqyfur/Nuts & Bolts Of Archery 2012 Updated version.pdf?dl=0


Muchas gracias por su tiempo y trabajo.
Thank you very much for your time and work.


Best Regards.
Juanma.


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## nuts&bolts

juanma666 said:


> Muchas gracias por su tiempo y trabajo.
> Thank you very much for your time and work.
> 
> 
> Best Regards.
> Juanma.


De nada. Feel free to write with any questions (preguntas).


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## juanma666

I thank you very much for the offer and I take the opportunity to ask something that has been worrying me for some time.

For precision shooting, the rest of the support arrow rest is usually used, which have direct contact with the tube until the arrow is completely out.

Why not use arrow rest of the type of hunting (of fall), which have less contact with the tube?
Since in this way, theoretically the shot would be cleaner and more precise.


Thank you.
Juanma


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## Clint25

Nuts and bolts.. you are Impressive !
Taking the time to give help to fellow archers


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## nuts&bolts

juanma666 said:


> I thank you very much for the offer and I take the opportunity to ask something that has been worrying me for some time.
> 
> For precision shooting, the rest of the support arrow rest is usually used, which have direct contact with the tube until the arrow is completely out.
> 
> Why not use arrow rest of the type of hunting (of fall), which have less contact with the tube?
> Since in this way, theoretically the shot would be cleaner and more precise.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> Juanma


Every design has advantages and dis-advantages. Some advantages, the arrow rest design is easy for the shooter to use and adjust (convenience).
Some advantages, the arrow rest design is for the arrow flight, but more difficult for the shooter to use (less convenience).
Many times, the most accurate designs are also the more expensive design (customer does not like to pay so much).

So, sometimes, the arrow needs MORE (not less) guidance, if the guidance is the gentle style. The FALLING type arrow rest, 99% of the time, has a rigid arm. There is ONE falling arrow rest design, that uses a flexible spring steel arm. The Flexible spring steel arm, provides some cushioning effect, to help the arrow calm down, and slows down the arrow bending during arrow launch.


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## nuts&bolts

juanma666 said:


> I thank you very much for the offer and I take the opportunity to ask something that has been worrying me for some time.
> 
> For precision shooting, the rest of the support arrow rest is usually used, which have direct contact with the tube until the arrow is completely out.
> 
> Why not use arrow rest of the type of hunting (of fall), which have less contact with the tube?
> Since in this way, theoretically the shot would be cleaner and more precise.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> Juanma


This style of target rest has the potential to be extremely accurate.



However, this arrow rest has dis-advantages. The arrow can easily fall off the side of the blade, if the shooter is not smooth in pulling the bow.
The tuning of this style of arrow rest can be confusing for some shooters...many beginner blade rest users do not fully understand the HOW of this arrow rest. Even expert shooters with high scores do not understand this arrow rest. Example. Expert shooter using this arrow rest, gets all of his arrows into the bullseye, but not always in the x-ring.

He did a test, and got this result.


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## nuts&bolts

This expert shooter was using this blade style arrow rest and wanted to improve his accuracy even further. So, I explained the shock absorption feature of the spring steel blade, the how and the why this "shock absorber" works. Once he learned the HOW and the WHY, then, this expert shooter became even more expert.



This is the "expert shooter" before setup. This is an incorrect, too stiff setup for the blade rest. We need to make the blade behave softer more like this.



Once the expert shooter blade rest was adjusted to sag enough, his NEW group size was only 5 mm shooting at the 18 meter target.



This is firing one fletched arrow 21 times in a row, at a 18 meter away target face.


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## nuts&bolts

juanma666 said:


> I thank you very much for the offer and I take the opportunity to ask something that has been worrying me for some time.
> 
> For precision shooting, the rest of the support arrow rest is usually used, which have direct contact with the tube until the arrow is completely out.
> 
> Why not use arrow rest of the type of hunting (of fall), which have less contact with the tube?
> Since in this way, theoretically the shot would be cleaner and more precise.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> Juanma


The blade rest has near constant contact with the arrow tube. But, I taught the expert shooter how to make this contact as soft as a goose down feather, so his accuracy became amazing.


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## juanma666

Hi, Alan (you have your own name as my son).

Thank you very much for the full explanation.
Now I understand it much better, I thought that the rest of the fall (hunting) was suitable for precision shooting, I use a QAD HDX although I am not too good shooter.
The almost constant contact serves as a guide for the arrow.


Best regards.
Juanma


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## Usmc0861

Great thread!


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## SRPIdaho

Thanks everyone for the good information.


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## Gdog281

Thats alot of information lol


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## hauerlane

following


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## Daguean12

YouTube is your best friend


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## paw paw ty

Good information thanks


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## 37Red56

Just came across this threat. Great info. Appreciate everyone's input!


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## sdoug719

Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up

Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 544 - updated.

poor man's bow vise.

Block of wood. Drill a 5/16ths diameter hole. Purchase a fine thread 5/16ths bolt (5/16-24). Add a washer and you have a cheap bow vise
to hold your bow. Thread the bolt into the front stabilizer hole.



















Now, you can do an easy check for your bubble level on your sight.

FIRST, get the riser vertical.




























Now, just check that your sight bubble is dead center.



Nope, adjust the 2nd axis adjustment on your sight, cuz you KNOW the riser is vertical.



Ahhh, much better now.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 545 upated.

A draw board is just a boat winch, and a backbone to hold your bow riser.
One end, you attach the boat winch.
Other end, you attach a 1/2 - inch pipe, mounted to a floor flange.

The backbone can be a 2x4 say 6 feet long.
The backbone can be a metal channel....unistrut or superstrut.

Very handy device to hold your bow at full draw, so you can do all kinds of checking.
You can check draw length.
You can check to see that your drop away arrow rest comes to the full up position, about 1-inch from full draw.
You can check draw weight, and holding weight, if you use a scale.
You can check to see if your bowstring feeds straight onto the top cam of your bow...or, if your bowstring is pulling sideways off the top cam...(top axle is low on one side, when at full draw).



Edge of a workbench, with a 1/2-inch pipe/floor plate on the left. Archery Dezign lashing winch on the right.



Modified stand alone workbench. 2x4 arm is removable. Boat winch is mounted up on top, cuz you want the winch to be higher than the pipe. Boat winch simulates your release hand anchor, which is always higher then your bow hand (pipe).

1/2-inch pipe, mounted to a floor flange, and the flange mounted to a block of 2x4. Unistrut nuts hold the block of wood to the metal unistrut channel.





1/2 inch pipe is actually 3/4 inches outside diameter. 3/4 inch outside diameter fits nicely into the curve of the grip area, for all compound bows. Mount the threaded pipe nipple into a floor plate/floor flange.



Fancy pivoting draw board.



Now you can point the entire draw board and the bow, downhill, so you can check 3rd axis on the sight.
But, to do a full draw 3rd axis check on a sight, must confirm that the riser is not tilted sideways. So, I made a pusher device.





Good idea to have a backup loop of paracord, which connects the bowstring to the adjustable chain link. If the d-loop lets go, the paracord loop still connects your bowstring
to the draw board hook.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 546 updated.

Portable two level workshop. It's a plywood box, with an upper and lower level. I use this box, as my work surface,
when I do seminars where I can drive to the seminar.













With these tools, I can tune anything, build strings/cables, build a frankenbow....whatever you can imagine.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 547 updated.

16 foot long workbench. Two 8 foot long workbenches side by side.
At the far end, is a boat winch. Very handy for stretching a string or a cable. Especially a single cam bowstring, since it's over 80-inches long in some cases.
So, I have a very accurate 100 lb scale, that I use to measure a string or a cable. Measuring a string or cable is always done at 100 lbs of tension.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 548 updated.

My two level plywood box, workbench.
Setting up a Strother Moxie. I have that unistrut rail again. I have the BCY micro stretcher, but mounted with the hooks hanging straight down.





People use this heavy duty angle bracket and two threaded hooks setup, to STRETCH a bowstring or a cable, during string or cable construction.

I turn the unistrut metal channel sideways, so the top of the channel is facing me.
Then, I rotate the hooks, so the hooks face the floor. Now, I can hang up a bow by the bowstring.

I snap on a line level to the bowstring.
I adjust ONE hook shorter or longer, until the bowstring is DEAD horizontal.

Now, I can hang an arrow, and set the d-loop position for a dead vertical arrow (arrow points straight down, and touches the arrow rest arm)
or
Now, I can hang an arrow, and set the d-loop position for 1/8th inch HIGHER than dead level (arrow points straight down, and I have a 1/8th inch gap between the arrow tube and the arrow rest arm).

GRAVITY is your friend.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 549 updated.

Draw length for your bow, and measuring on a draw board.

So, you measure from the pivot point of the grip (deepest part of the curve on the grip....no, NOT the berger hole...no NOT the front of the riser...no NOT the back of the riser).
So, on a draw board, this means the spot where the pipe for your draw board, touches the grip area of the riser.
This way, if you have a wooden wrap around grip, this reduces the bow draw length.
This way, if you used to have a wooden wrap around grip, and you remove the grip, and shoot off the riser, you just GREW the draw length.
Maybe you normally shoot off the riser, but you just added grip tape. IT's thin, but NOT zero thickness. You just SHRUNK the draw length.

So, see why measuring the DRAW length from the BERGER holes, just does not work.
Gotta measure from the pivot point, like THIS.



Well, you gotta MEASURE from the spot where the pipe of the draw board, touches your GRIP....BUT, you need to start your measurement at 1.75-inches.

So, I built a hook ruler, where the piece of wood lines up with 1-3/4 inches, so you can get a direct reading for DRAW LENGTH, with this HOOK ruler. Just take a metal yardstick, and bolt on a piece of wood, with a straight edge. Line up the straight edge at 1-3/4 inches. Now you have a "hook".





Now the yardstick is perfectly lined up with the 3-o'clock surface of the pipe bow holder. The 1-3/4 inch mark on the yardstick is perfectly lined up with the deepest part of the curve on the grip of your bow.



Draw length for my bow is 28-3/4 inches.
I made a right angle hook (like a bookshelf bracket/end), and clamped it to the metal ruler, for picture taking purposes.


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 550 updated.

If you ever decide to try to make your own bowstrings and cables...
this "kite string holder" is great for beginners.











A bowstring is just 10 loops of string material, wrapped around two goal posts (string jig) to form a 20 strand bowstring.
A bowstring is just 12 loops of string material, wrapped around two goal posts (string jig) to form a 24 strand bowstring.

Pretty simple, right?

Well, to get ZERO peep rotation, the FIRST thing you need to master, is to get the 10 loops wrapped around the two goal posts (string jig) at EXACTLY the same layout tension.
So, I usually just use my hand, and squeeze the bowstring material spool between my thumb and middle finger. As you move the spool around the two goal posts, the spool spins like a fishing reel
and the plastic gets kinda hot on my fingers.

So, found this KITE STRING holder, with the wing nut and the spring, and the bronze bushings for laying up the loops of string material...the first step in building a bowstring or a cable.

I didn't build this...I purchased this kite string holder from the AT classifieds.
Works GREAT.

You can also purchase from Baker Archery. They call it a Spooler Layout Tool.









Spooler Layout Tools and Bundles | BAP


Keep a consistant tension on the material as you lay out a string	More comfortable for the hand and wrist	All spoolers come with interchangeable rods to accomodate 1/8, 1/4 and 1 lb spools. Make it a bundle-add a 3" or 6" tray for extra savings




www.bakerarcheryproducts.com


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## nuts&bolts

sdoug719 said:


> Would it be possible to repost the pictures in posts 544 - 554? For some reason they are no longer showing up
> 
> Great thread by the way, just spent the last several hours on it


Post 551 updated.



> 4rcgoat said:
> Good evening to you sir, I just got done reading a thread you wrote from 2010 on bow tuning where you literally explained an entire books worth of valuable info (of course I saved it for future reference ) Now my question is....being a finish carpenter/cabinet maker I couldn't help but notice all of the home made jigs and fixtures in the pictures and found myself wondering if you too have some experience in that field as well. If so do you have any more detailed instructions or pictures of some of your creations, love the idea of building my own tools to work on my bow,thank you for your time.


Engineer by trade. Retired some years ago. So, in the DIY section, someone came up with the idea of the $20 DIY Pipe Clamp bow press. These are not my builds,
just pictures of ingenious stuff that OTHER folks have built. Home made bowpresses.


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## nuts&bolts

Post 551 update, part 2.
Just found this wooden screw drive bow press, no welding and works just like the linear screw drive fingertip metal bowpresses.

























So, the pipe clamp bowpress, ONLY used 2x4s for the bow press finger. Some folks were worried a 2x4 was not strong enough. Well, clearly this guy heard you, and he went to a 2x6 wooden press finger.


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