# Benefits Of Shooting More Poundage??



## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

I have Stalker Stick bow Coyote model. The limbs are 47 lbs @28". My draw length is 26" so I think I am pulling roughly 42-43 lbs. I feel like I am shooting well and want to get some heavier limbs. Aiming for 50-52 lbs @ 26". 

What are some benefits of shooting more poundage? 

32 yards


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

Gives some additional penetration when hunting and for some it might hellp with a cleaner release. It could also shoot with a flatter trajectory depending on arrow selection. Downside could be struggling to shoot well if it's not easy for you to draw. Shoot whatever weight is comfortable and that you shoot well. You have plenty to kill deer as is if that's part of the goal.


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

Just noticed your target. I am sure many moose have been killed with 43lb bows but I would prefer 50 min. Some states may require a higher min for moose.


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## secretagentmann (Jul 6, 2012)

Depending on weight of arrow, you can send it further, flatter.


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## rb61 (Sep 11, 2014)

As an old timer, but new to archery, I started with a 40lb recurve. After a few weeks, I was getting surprisingly good groups at 10 yards. My coach notice that my hand was shaking before release and suggest that I try a lighter draw weight to work on form. Ever since I moved to a 30#, I have not been able to match my earlier groups. I have heard that higher poundage can mask bad release form. Sure seems like that is what is happening to me.

I plan to stick with the lower draw weight until my form improves. Gotta hurry though, not much time left.....


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

form collapse 
elbow and shoulder issues
not reaching ful DL
shaky sight picture


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> form collapse
> elbow and shoulder issues
> not reaching ful DL
> shaky sight picture


^^ mostly this.

If you need more power for larger game, it might be worth considering, though if any of the above come into play, it's totally not.

What is your application?


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Unless you are a very small person 26" is a very short draw length. I suspect you would do better to look to better form to get more power. Then you would not need the heavier limbs. - lbg


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

BarneySlayer said:


> ^^ mostly this.
> 
> If you need more power for larger game, it might be worth considering, though if any of the above come into play, it's totally not.
> 
> What is your application?


I got the recurve bow to be able shoot more with my 4 year old son. We have a 12 target course to walk and shoot. However I have enjoyed it so much I put down the compound bow. Now I am considering hunting with it next year. In the main state I hunt your bow has to be at minimum 45 lbs. My compound bow is 62 lbs. So I was thinking about aiming for the 50-51 lbs mark with the recurve. 



longbowguy said:


> Unless you are a very small person 26" is a very short draw length. I suspect you would do better to look to better form to get more power. Then you would not need the heavier limbs. - lbg


Nope, average height guy. 5'8 with 26" draw length. If you would like I can post some pictures of me at full draw with the recurve.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

how long have you been shooting a recurve?


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Take this from a prospective of a mostly recreational and 3D shooter…..

providing I can can my required range, good, flat trajectory and good levels of accuracy then I would suggest that going only as high a draw as you can comfortably manage. By that I mean as I have seen it put better on these boards as something you can dominate 100% of the time and I agree with that fully.

I don't enjoy shooting something I have to fight with and if you can hit your ranges with what you have now then why change?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

More "oomph" for hunting and it covers the sin of a poor release better (to an extent).


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

Fury90flier said:


> how long have you been shooting a recurve?


Since June of this year. 



marcelxl said:


> Take this from a prospective of a mostly recreational and 3D shooter…..
> 
> providing I can can my required range, good, flat trajectory and good levels of accuracy then I would suggest that going only as high a draw as you can comfortably manage. By that I mean as I have seen it put better on these boards as something you can dominate 100% of the time and I agree with that fully.
> 
> I don't enjoy shooting something I have to fight with and if you can hit your ranges with what you have now then why change?


Thats a really good point. The main reason for going up in poundage is to be legal for hunting.


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## secretagentmann (Jul 6, 2012)

SierraMtns said:


> Since June of this year.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a really good point. The main reason for going up in poundage is to be legal for hunting.


Shoot a year before you move up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd guess it largely depends on what you are hunting. Legally, as long as your bow is _marked_ at or above the legal minimum you are good to go. I doubt anybody is going to measure your draw length, but they might look at your bow.

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with your bow, but bigger game I think I'd want a little more. I say "think" I'd want more since I've never hunted anything larger than whitetail deer. The problem with more weight is it's going to be tougher to shoot. I've been going down over the years from bows in the 55#-57# range to 50# and now 45#. I noticed a definite increase in shooting consistency going down to 50#. I'm not necessarily more accurate with my new 45# recurve than I am with my 50#er on these nice summer evenings, but I can shoot it more comfortably and easily. Because of that, I think the lighter bow will be better in a hunting situation and for deer 45# is plenty.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

The reason I asked how long you've been shooting is because of the weight you figured you could shoot. You said you shoot a 62# compound and figured 51/52 based on that weight. The problem is that you need to go on holding weight....probably about 20#. So what you're really doing is trying to go 2.5# that weight.

Think of it this way...would you be trying to shoot a compound with a dw of over 150#...probably not. 


With the group size you shot, that is doing very well considering the weight you started with and the short time you've been shooting. I suggest you just stick with it and not worry about going higher weight for quite some time. Let your form develop in addition to your skills over the next year or so...you'll be glad you did.

What I would suggest is that you get a coach that can help keep your alignment in check....by far a better investment.


If you really feel you NEED more DW then just get closer to your intended game...there is a reason it's called hunting.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I shoot as much as I can accurately for intended hunting range.
I would rather have a 15 yard shot that goes completely through , than a 25 yard shot that does not.
Heavier draw allows heavier arrows at the same speed(usually), yielding more momentum. 40#/8 gpp= 320 grain arrow. 50#/8 gpp= 400 grain arrow. 
A heavier draw and arrow combo will usually yield a slightly better speed, but not enough that you will likely notice it. There is also a point that that stops, but that is a entirely different post.
Momentum is what pushes an arrow through a deer or other game. I stay away from minimums, if I can avoid it. I like a bit extra for when things don't go perfectly- hit a bone, the deer turns, etc.


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## RandyN (Aug 23, 2015)

I agree with most that has been said so far. The one thing I have not seen mentioned yet is the broadhead you plan on using of hunting. I know your question was about draw weight but don't forget about the entire package. The bow only shoots the arrow. The weight of the arrow is part of the momentum needed for good penetration. But the broadhead has a lot to do with the penetration you will get. Use a cut on contact broadhead with a any bow and you will see better penetration. As far as bow weight, use the weight that you can shoot comfortably and accurately. Higher weight bow might help if you have bad shot placement.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, there are benefits…but, as some are alluding, not with total disregard of certain conditions.

Generally, I would consider an increase in draw weight “appropriate” when the bow you are shooting becomes noticeably easy to shoot. This is more a situation of being attentive to what your body is saying than what’s being prompted by some imaginings of the brain…and there are certain particulars that may almost pass unnoticeable that come into play, i.e.: not just bones and muscles but also all that support them. 

Anyhow, given what’s been said so far, I’d probably suggest aiming for a few pounds lighter, in another year, than what was mentioned…and you’d could still be more than legal. The main point would be doing as much as you can to strengthen the areas that could lead to future injury. Too much too soon and the party is over.

But getting back to the question: “What are some benefits of shooting more poundage?” First, I’d say that “a better release” is most commonly noted. I certainly wouldn’t deny that such “improvement” enters the sphere of reality…but it just needs to stay in the context of lowering draw weight will often reveal “release problems”.

Finger shooting often poses as problematic and even a bit enigmatic at times. For the past few weeks I’ve used 5 bows of successively lower draw weights and each time it was easy to determine that more work on my release was in order. My first conclusion was that working on my follow through was most useful in improving my release…and the second conclusion was that draw weight was probably less of a factor than was performance of the chosen bow.

(There could well be something useful in that last paragraph for the OP, if he finds it, but I just thought I’d say something more on the “better release with more pounds” thing as it’s something I’ve been working on lately.)

The second benefit of more poundage, for me, has mostly to do with life threatening situations…and the sudden realization that the bow you once thought could kill an African lion instantly feels like a toy. Been there…don’t want to go there again…no longer own those underwear. All I got…Enjoy, Rick.


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

*Update:*

I spent some time at my local archery shop and did some measuring. My dealer took their measuring arrow and had me draw back to anchor. I was 27" at the front of the riser. Then we put the bow on the scale with the measuring arrow and pulled the bow back to 27". The bow was* 45.1 *lbs. Next I shot it through the chrono with my GT Trad 500 spine arrow weighing in at 390 grs and it shot at _*188 fps*_. I was very surprised at the speed. I would of guess it would of been 150-170 fps. I will be keeping with this current setup for a while. My next goal is to work on instinctive shooting from 30-50 yards. 

Thanks everyone for the help.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm young, strong, athletic-ish and I shoot 45 lbs. Rest easy my friend, you're bow will kill anything in North America. I probably wouldn't use arrows that weigh 8.6 gpp for hunting, but if they work for you and your bow that's all that matters. I personally like 10-12 gpp, but that's just my preference and I won't try to impose my convictions about arrow selection on anyone. Good luck to you.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

SierraMtns said:


> *Update:*
> 
> I spent some time at my local archery shop and did some measuring. My dealer took their measuring arrow and had me draw back to anchor. I was 27" at the front of the riser. Then we put the bow on the scale with the measuring arrow and pulled the bow back to 27". The bow was* 45.1 *lbs. Next I shot it through the chrono with my GT Trad 500 spine arrow weighing in at 390 grs and it shot at _*188 fps*_. I was very surprised at the speed. I would of guess it would of been 150-170 fps. I will be keeping with this current setup for a while. My next goal is to work on instinctive shooting from 30-50 yards.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the help.



It's my opinion that your bow is plenty heavy and probably no advantage to go heavier. But, I also think your arrow is too light and not likely much foc. 8.6 grains per pound of bow weight is close to minimum acceptable and it's most likely noisier than you may think. According to my quick mental calculation you must be shooting 100gr points. 
The big question is, are they tuned? Your shooting looks pretty good but, you might be surprised at the difference another 50-75 grains can make. 

Mr. Rick, I would sure be interested in the story that caused the skid marks in the drawers. Sounds interesting.:set1_fishing:


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## catman-do (Aug 17, 2014)

50# is all that's needed in N. America


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Nice to see that you are pulling more than you thought and with real good speed. It seems that you now have more confidence in your equipment.
So far as going up in weight, only you can decide when to do so, or how much. There is no magic time frame so waiting a year may be total unnecessary for you or it may never happen.
Likewise you might want to go 5# or 10#, or not at all. You have a take-down so switching poundage is just as easy and expensive as a set of new limbs. I like having two sets of limbs. A set for shooting indoors over the winter and a heavier set for summer shooting and hunting.

Now you have to select a broadhead. That is a wide open topic for you, and lots of opinions to be considered. Two, three or four blades? What weight? What maker?


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mr. Rick, I would sure be interested in the story that caused the skid marks in the drawers. Sounds interesting.:set1_fishing:


Mr. Forest,

Haven’t told the story for many years…but it’s been a favorite around the campfire, especially when there’s a greenhorn hunter in camp. Typically, I’ll let the story build with a lot of peripheral/personal history information and save the specific incident for last. I suppose the bottom-line for those listeners was be smart and don’t get too far separated from a partner. In other words, do as I say, not as I do…don’t make me come looking for you, and we can all be happy campers. 

Anyhow, I was bowhunting some big woods, out of state in New Hampshire…by myself (not unusual)…and no one would have known my whereabouts…until the locals decided to question the “abandoned” vehicle. It was a piece that I’d hunted before with a friend and we called it “the triangle”, which was 7 miles long and thin...access was from the roads on either end. It was a flat stretch of woods at the base of a mountain…there was a parking spot at the pointed end, and when we had hunted together we'd not ventured much deeper than a few hundred yards, where navigating the surrounding swamps became problematic.

This trip I started early in the day and wasn’t going to let the swampiness stop me…nor could the persistent rain and drizzle. The more I worked around and through the swamp the better sign I was finding. First, I took to tracking a very large deer until I cut some moose tracks and decided to follow them. It wasn't long before cold wet feet made getting to drier ground the more reasonable option. As time passed, I had changed course so many times I was wishing the sun would come out, that I’d brought a compass, or that there was some high ground I could climb to at least see the mountain…but such is the clarity of hindsight.

The only option available to extricate myself was to plot a straight line course and stick to it. After traveling a couple miles deeper into the piece, I noticed that I was traveling parallel to the remnants of a decades old stone wall about 80 yards off to my right. I figured that was my ticket to somewhere and followed along until it did a sharp 90 degree turn.

So there I stood, soaked head to toe, and making the decision which way to go from there…when I heard this racket off to my right…and it was rapidly heading in my direction. My immediate thought from the sound was a 300# whitetail. I looked down at my fingers on the string…and I was determined not to look/move until it was right in front of me. When movement appeared in the corner of my eye I swung my right leg behind me and came to full draw. Pushing up bushels of leaves in front of each foot, this 400# plus black bear came to a screeching halt not 8’ away.

Needless to say we were both in shock…and the eyeball to eyeball contest began. Time stood still, but not the thoughts of possible scenarios which started running through my head. All I could picture, if I took the shot with my 52# recurve, was an arrow dangling from the bear’s hide…and one pissed off bear! I brought a toy to a bear fight! Then I thought, if I shot I could stick the bow in an attacking bear’s face while I backpedalled and pulled my 4” fixed blade, which not only made me feel even stupider…but made me suddenly realize that my knees had turned into concrete…and I wasn’t going anywhere!

If I did shoot the bear, and survived, there would have been no way I could have gotten it out of the woods myself…or even back to it...because I didn't where the f*** I was. So, shooting started to favor an avenue of last resort, and I began considering an alternative end game. Knowing that some place stock in man’s upright posture as being an indication of superiority over a black bear on all 4’s…I was theorizing an encounter with an upright animal, and either putting my arrow into the brain via an open mouth…or through the soft throat and into the spine.

With my new plan in mind, and having weighed other options, the waiting grew more and more intense…one of us had to make the next move!…and it ended up being me…I finally broke and pulled my arrow one last inch. The bear responded, as I was expecting…it started to rise…and…when he got half way up, he spun and ran.

As he disappeared from sight, I got this strange feeling coming from my knees…they had turned to Jello. After about 10 minutes of regaining my composure I was off following fresh bear tracks. The chance of having a shot at an unsuspecting bear was a far more appealing scenario. Besides, he had taken my straight-line course…and I was no longer faced with the same indecision I had been involved with before he came along. I stayed with those tracks until they continued to wander too far from the course I was trying to maintain…and just as darkness was falling I came upon a power line cut. After some 4-500 yards of following that cut I hit a road, stashed my gear, and walked the 7 miles back to my truck.

I’d traveled to the far end of the triangle…and the following weekend that’s where I entered and caught up with the same bear…but that’s another story. Thanks for asking…Enjoy. Rick.

oh ya…heavy bows and heavy arrows have there place…100%!...and I do carry a bigger piece of steel whenever it looks like I might be needing it.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

If you're an orthopedic surgeon, heavier weight bows are a good way to fund your retirement plan.

KPC


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

GEREP said:


> If you're an orthopedic surgeon, heavier weight bows are a good way to fund your retirement plan.
> 
> KPC


Could be…but there is also a reasonable approach, IMO.

Of course, consideration should be given to the common appearance of the subject coming from folks that have numbers in mind, which are often at a disconnected from this (stick and string) reality: “I’m shooting X pounds from my compound…my draw length with same is X…I’m shooting speeds of X…I’m big and strong…I can lift X pounds…will my X pound recurve/longbow kill X critter ?” etc., etc. Given some of the aforementioned it would be rather silly to dismiss the potential for developing physical problems.

That said, I started shooting bows at 8 years of age…and by the time I was in my mid to later 40’s my daily shooter was a 76# recurve, plus I’d also shoot up to 100 shots a week from my 84# recurve…and never did I suffer the ailments often heard from others. Presently, I’m having a few quarrels with aging so I have to take a practical approach with what I know…what my body tells me…and not some wild imaginings in my head (…just more trouble in there than it’s worth…if I want to keep shooting).

As I’ve mentioned before, this activity uses very specific muscles in a way most unlike any other use, and the body takes longer to make the adjustment than one realizes…and much of that pertains to even minimal changes. So, my point would be one that favors more of a long term approach/reflection on the physical side of the equation…and toss most of the consideration given to the relentlessly questionable numbers game.

I’ve also said repeatedly, that increases to bow weight would better come after one reaches the point that their bow becomes easy to shoot. I’m not saying that increasing weight is inevitable or necessary…but neither would I remove it from the list of options. There will always be those with ambitions/visions of hunting dangerous game…and there are preferable choices in equipment that would be up to the task. Enjoy, Rick.


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

Sauk Mountain said:


> I'm young, strong, athletic-ish and I shoot 45 lbs. Rest easy my friend, you're bow will kill anything in North America. I probably wouldn't use arrows that weigh 8.6 gpp for hunting, but if they work for you and your bow that's all that matters. I personally like 10-12 gpp, but that's just my preference and I won't try to impose my convictions about arrow selection on anyone. Good luck to you.






FORESTGUMP said:


> It's my opinion that your bow is plenty heavy and probably no advantage to go heavier. But, I also think your arrow is too light and not likely much foc. 8.6 grains per pound of bow weight is close to minimum acceptable and it's most likely noisier than you may think. According to my quick mental calculation you must be shooting 100gr points.
> The big question is, are they tuned? Your shooting looks pretty good but, you might be surprised at the difference another 50-75 grains can make.
> 
> Mr. Rick, I would sure be interested in the story that caused the skid marks in the drawers. Sounds interesting.:set1_fishing:





Bill 2311 said:


> Nice to see that you are pulling more than you thought and with real good speed. It seems that you now have more confidence in your equipment.
> So far as going up in weight, only you can decide when to do so, or how much. There is no magic time frame so waiting a year may be total unnecessary for you or it may never happen.
> Likewise you might want to go 5# or 10#, or not at all. You have a take-down so switching poundage is just as easy and expensive as a set of new limbs. I like having two sets of limbs. A set for shooting indoors over the winter and a heavier set for summer shooting and hunting.
> 
> Now you have to select a broadhead. That is a wide open topic for you, and lots of opinions to be considered. Two, three or four blades? What weight? What maker?


Yeah I have been thinking about building a heavier arrow even though these arrows fly good at 50 yards. Thinking something around the 450 gr mark. Currently shooting GT Trad 500 spine (8.6 gpi) with 125 gr tip. Thinking about jumping up to 400 spine (9.3 gpi) with 50 gr brass inserts and 125 gr tips. This would put me around the 444 gr mark. I hope 60 gr increase will make a difference. I did tune these arrows to my current setup and will do the same with the new arrow. 

The BH are 125 gr two blade.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

Only real but big advantage is better penetration. Might mean the difference between one hole and two.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rickstix said:


> Mr. Forest,
> 
> Haven’t told the story for many years…but it’s been a favorite around the campfire, especially when there’s a greenhorn hunter in camp. Typically, I’ll let the story build with a lot of peripheral/personal history information and save the specific incident for last. I suppose the bottom-line for those listeners was be smart and don’t get too far separated from a partner. In other words, do as I say, not as I do…don’t make me come looking for you, and we can all be happy campers.
> 
> ...




Wow, great hunting story. 8 ft is not very far away and it was probably more like six feet from the arrow point. One good leap for a bear and it would have been hand to hand combat. I can imagine you were running out of options pretty quickly because holding at full or almost full draw for very long is tough. Something HAD to happen and real soon. For some reason that slight movement caused him to lose his nerve, not that he really wanted to hurt you to begin with but, fight or flight kicked in just in time.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Tracker12 said:


> Only real but big advantage is better penetration. Might mean the difference between one hole and two.


There are a lot of other factors that come into play before the poundage marked on a bow's limb.

In theory, a heavier bow should offer better penetration, but there are so many other things we can mess up first that could even make a heavy bow get poor penetration. Poor bow design, poor string choice, poor arrow or broadhead selection, improper sharpening, poor tuning, poor shot placement, poor shot execution. 

Stuff happens but it's just like putting a giant engine in your car... and then running stock, skinny little tires. It's not making it to the pavement :lol:


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Unfortunately threads like this generate a lot of "what if".
Certain assumptions have to be made. The bow is well tuned and heads are sharp, regardless of the poundage.
And most important is that the shooter can always make a good shot with what ever poundage he is shooting.


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## PaulDeadringer2 (Jan 2, 2014)

If you're looking for better performance, you may benefit from a shorter bow with a 26" draw length.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Bill 2311 said:


> Unfortunately threads like this generate a lot of "what if".
> Certain assumptions have to be made. The bow is well tuned and heads are sharp, regardless of the poundage.
> And most important is that the shooter can always make a good shot with what ever poundage he is shooting.


The topic of heavy poundage is entirely a matter of "what if" in itself. What if you hit the wrong spot. What if you short draw. What if the animal reacts before the hit. The flip side is that many of these situations would never occur is the individual didn't push it and simply stuck with a bow they could truly dominate and called their shots better in the woods. Assumptions about control and accuracy and proper set up can't be made when talking about more poundage, as so many traditional archers shy away from standardized scoring systems that it's nearly impossible to even define accuracy anymore.

There's nothing wrong with shooting heavy bows (over 55# on the fingers). The biggest problem, in my mind, with draw weight debates is that draw weight is now a very poor means of comparing power. My 50# at 30.5" composite hybrid will out shoot my old 85# at 27" selfbow with too much string follow. If I didn't elaborate on the differences of designs, and simply offered the draw weights as a comparison, that'd be terribly misleading.

The truth is that we're just trying to kill things to eat them. There are a lot of ways to do that. I don't particularly like extremes. Yes, a 30# bow can kill big game, but it doesn't make more sense to use that over 50# if you're physically capable of doing so. Just as it doesn't make much sense to me to shoot 70# if the biggest thing you'll be shooting at is a whitetail deer, where 50# is more than enough for clean, consistent kills. That's just me, though. I also don't see the point in driving a big lifted truck with swamper tires on it if you never go off road. Doesn't make sense, but if it makes you happy, have at it.


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## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

kegan said:


> The topic of heavy poundage is entirely a matter of "what if" in itself.


Although a boring approach, wouldn't it be fair to the OP if all things are controlled, except the draw weight of the bow? A properly tuned arrow. Sharp broadhead. Well executed form, clean release and good shot placement - the same on a #50 and a 70# bow. 

Now, what's the difference? Seems to boil down to a math problem. Beer is my strong point, not math, however, I've heard the smart guys talk about the sweet spot where you can maximize speed and kinetic energy, before the limbs get too heavy and the wave crests. 

Anyone got a slide ruler?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

For my own bows, that sweet spot of diminishing returns is 60-65# depending on the design, however a heavier bow, if all else is equal, will still deliver more energy. More energy, the bigger the critter you can shoot through. Simple enough.

My point was that all the other stuff is unavoidable, as we're not machines. We've all seen the guys who stretch their draw length for a chrono or picture, but in reality draw 2" less on the course. Same idea.

Which isn't to say that no one can shoot heavy bows accurately! Just that not _everyone_ can.


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## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

kegan said:


> For my own bows, that sweet spot of diminishing returns is 60-65# depending on the design, however a heavier bow, if all else is equal, will still deliver more energy. More energy, the bigger the critter you can shoot through. Simple enough.
> 
> My point was that all the other stuff is unavoidable, as we're not machines. We've all seen the guys who stretch their draw length for a chrono or picture, but in reality draw 2" less on the course. Same idea.
> 
> Which isn't to say that no one can shoot heavy bows accurately! Just that not _everyone_ can.


Excellent points. Thanks. I knew a great guy out in Colorado - Mike Rose of Rose Archery - try to talk me out of an 80# compound. He messed up by using facts and math, when I was working with the romantic side of things - more is always better. Live and learn. I still love the bow, but now accept the performance standards. I landed firmly on the downside of the sine wave. 

Are the new carbon fiber materials being used for limbs moving that "sweet spot" you encounter with natural materials? Not trying to sharp shoot, just honestly curious.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I am of the opinion that the greatest cause of injury due to heavier draw weights is bad form. Draw the wrong way, with the wrong muscles, puts some nasty stresses on joints. Short draw, you're likely holding at anchor with undue stress caused by trying to tweak your alignment to get the arrow close enough to your face. Long draw, you're likely breaking alignment for the same...

The long draw usually happens with compound bows, pulling bows that are too heavy, but they can manage to shoot because of the let off, but still damage themselves pulling through the 'hump'. That it feels like a hump is a good indication that they're doing it wrong. Before I knew what my draw length should have been, had a compound bow set too long, been there, done it.

The short draw usually happens because the shooter can't comfortably hand the draw weight, and as such, never learns what 'full' draw is, and so comes to a short draw, and then tweaks out to get to any kind of 'anchor', even if it is as ridiculous as the base of the thumb to the tip of the nose.

The human body can wear out with repetitive motion. Grocery checker is a great example. But holding 60 pounds or so on a semi-regular basis isn't exactly abusive punishment. Trying to hold it using primarily your rotator cuff, particularly inconsistently, pretty good recipe for injury.

It's not different with weight lifting. Lift what you can control, with good form, without bouncing or otherwise gyrating in order to handle, and give yourself time to rest and recovery, you're good, and you'll probably be better off for it down the road. Try to grab more than you can really handle to impress your friends, you'll likely injure yourself eventually. Been there, and done that too


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

rickstix said:


> Mr. Forest,
> 
> Haven’t told the story for many years…but it’s been a favorite around the campfire, especially when there’s a greenhorn hunter in camp. Typically, I’ll let the story build with a lot of peripheral/personal history information and save the specific incident for last. I suppose the bottom-line for those listeners was be smart and don’t get too far separated from a partner. In other words, do as I say, not as I do…don’t make me come looking for you, and we can all be happy campers.
> 
> ...













It pays to have friends in a bear fight ;-)


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

What length arrow should I start with to start tuning? 400 or 500 spine? The arrow will have 62 gr insert and 125 gr tip.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Paul68 said:


> Excellent points. Thanks. I knew a great guy out in Colorado - Mike Rose of Rose Archery - try to talk me out of an 80# compound. He messed up by using facts and math, when I was working with the romantic side of things - more is always better. Live and learn. I still love the bow, but now accept the performance standards. I landed firmly on the downside of the sine wave.
> 
> Are the new carbon fiber materials being used for limbs moving that "sweet spot" you encounter with natural materials? Not trying to sharp shoot, just honestly curious.


No, I don't think so. I believe that Border doesn't build over 70# for that very reason. 

Keep in mind, Fred Bear killed an African elephant with a 70# Bear recurve...


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

I think you should keep shooting the recurve the way it is and hunt with the compound. In the off season you can play with other options. Changing too many thing at once can or will screw it all up.
Dan


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

went to a hog outfitter this weekend, the owner has killed pretty much every big game animal on the planet with a black widow recurve, he told me its better to shoot the most poundage you can shoot without struggling to pull it back because its better to have better penetration when your off a little rather than lack of penetration if you're off a little and he said the biggest demise in shoulder injurys in archery is bad form, hes 60+ years old and still shoots 75 pound black widow, he taught me a few things on form but he gave me some amazing mental advice, probably the best advice ive been in archery


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

SierraMtns said:


> Yeah I have been thinking about building a heavier arrow even though these arrows fly good at 50 yards. Thinking something around the 450 gr mark. Currently shooting GT Trad 500 spine (8.6 gpi) with 125 gr tip. Thinking about jumping up to 400 spine (9.3 gpi) with 50 gr brass inserts and 125 gr tips. This would put me around the 444 gr mark. I hope 60 gr increase will make a difference. I did tune these arrows to my current setup and will do the same with the new arrow.
> 
> The BH are 125 gr two blade.



I can't help but think that your arrows are overspined? Have you bareshafted them?

I shoot a Toelke Chinook [email protected] My draw is 26 inches so basically we are shooting the same weight and draw length. My bow has an 8 strand string and it likes a stiff arrow. I am shooting a CE Heritage 90 (600 spine) cut 27.5 inches carbon to carbon with a 125 grain broadhead. Mine bareshaft perfect and my arrows weigh 426 grains. There is know way you are going to get a 400 spine to shoot out of your bow unless you put 300 grains up front. That bow you are shooting should spine pretty well with a 35/55 50 grain brass insert and 125 grain head. And cut to 29 inches would weigh around 445 grains.


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## overbo (Feb 7, 2015)

It's pretty simple IMO, you have too commit a lot more into to shooting heavy poundage. If you are one that likes working out and find satisfaction w/ accomplishments gained by strength and conditioning? Maybe heavy poundage bows are for you. The advantage of ''being able to shoot more poundage'', is the personal accomplishment!


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## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

kegan said:


> No, I don't think so. I believe that Border doesn't build over 70# for that very reason.
> 
> Keep in mind, Fred Bear killed an African elephant with a 70# Bear recurve...


I'm only pulling one recurve that heavy, a 74# Blackwidow. I'd have to say in remarkably unscientific local tests, the penetration on a standard Block is 5-7 inches deeper than a 60# Blackwidow. Granted, a ~740gr arrow vice a ~530 gr arrow, but I think I've got North America covered. 

I couldn't eat an elephant.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> went to a hog outfitter this weekend, the owner has killed pretty much every big game animal on the planet with a black widow recurve, he told me its better to shoot the most poundage you can shoot without struggling to pull it back because its better to have better penetration when your off a little rather than lack of penetration if you're off a little and he said the biggest demise in shoulder injurys in archery is bad form, hes 60+ years old and still shoots 75 pound black widow, he taught me a few things on form but he gave me some amazing mental advice, probably the best advice ive been in archery


The other side of that is that if your average Joe doesn't prepare sufficiently, and overbows himself, he's more LIKELY to have things be a little off. 

Paul, the point of diminishing returns doesn't mean that an 80# bow won't produce more energy than a 60# bow, it just means it's no longer a linear increase. For example, I know most of my bows will deliver about 80% of the draw weight in KE with an 11 gpp. I've tested everything from 27# up to 80#. About 60#, that percentage starts dropping. So the heavier bows are still delivering more energy than the lighter bows, but you're now doing a lot more work to get an increase than you proportionately were before. 

End of the day though, it doesn't really matter how much you're holding on the fingers- accuracy trumps all.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Accuracy trumps all but doing so with the heaviest poundage you can shoot is the way to go, my recurve shots will be only 10-15 yards, if I can't make a good shot at that range with any poundage I need to stay home


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Accuracy trumps all but doing so with the heaviest poundage you can shoot is the way to go, my recurve shots will be only 10-15 yards, if I can't make a good shot at that range with any poundage I need to stay home


I well tuned arrow is more important than poundage. Accuracy is the most important, then the arrow and broadhead, and last would be poundage. However the 3 should mesh. Most don't bareshaft tune their arrows for the perfect match and most lack the ability to sharpen a broadhead correctly. Those things trump poundage.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

westksbowhunter said:


> I well tuned arrow is more important than poundage. Accuracy is the most important, then the arrow and broadhead, and last would be poundage. However the 3 should mesh. Most don't bareshaft tune their arrows for the perfect match and most lack the ability to sharpen a broadhead correctly. Those things trump poundage.


Everyone has their own ways of tuning, shooting and hunting, there are several ways to get it done, tuning a bow is the first thing I do with any bow, not sure why you even brought that up, im a accuracy geek , just doing it my way which I know will work when a deer comes within 15 yards of me


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Everyone has their own ways of tuning, shooting and hunting, there are several ways to get it done, tuning a bow is the first thing I do with any bow, not sure why you even brought that up, im a accuracy geek , just doing it my way which I know will work when a deer comes within 15 yards of me


Well because we are talking about the importance of poundage, or its lack of! There are other things that are far more important than poundage, and not jus accuracy, which you hinted at. The arrow, while propelled by the bow, is what kills the animal if placed correctly. If placed correctly, the lethal broadhead doesn't care if it is coming in at 160 fps or 200 fps. 

I will also add that arrow weight would also carry more importance than bow weight as well. My daughter blew a 400 plus grain arrow clean through a buck at 37 lbs. She was shooting a sharp broad head and over 10 gpp from a perfectly matched arrow. Did not matter if it was 37 lbs or 57 lbs. Had she hit shoulder at either poundage, that deer would have lived.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

westksbowhunter said:


> Well because we are talking about the importance of poundage, or its lack of! There are other things that are far more important than poundage, and not jus accuracy, which you hinted at. The arrow, while propelled by the bow, is what kills the animal if placed correctly. If placed correctly, the lethal broadhead doesn't care if it is coming in at 160 fps or 200 fps.
> 
> I will also add that arrow weight would also carry more importance than bow weight as well. My daughter blew a 400 plus grain arrow clean through a buck at 37 lbs. She was shooting a sharp broad head and over 10 gpp from a perfectly matched arrow. Did not matter if it was 37 lbs or 57 lbs. Had she hit shoulder at either poundage, that deer would have lived.


Dude you're misunderstanding me, please stop the preaching about accuracy, I do it a different way and it works, it's not for everyone, I can shoot a 65# bow all day and not be sore, i use to shoot a 43# bow, but I'm more efficient with heavier limbs, for most archers I would recommend shoot the poundage your more comfortable and consistent with to be accurate as possible I just have a different mentality


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Dude you're misunderstanding me, please stop the preaching about accuracy, I do it a different way and it works, it's not for everyone, I can shoot a 65# bow all day and not be sore, i use to shoot a 43# bow, but I'm more efficient with heavier limbs, for most archers I would recommend shoot the poundage your more comfortable and consistent with to be accurate as possible I just have a different mentality


If I read my own post correctly, I thought I was preaching tuning, but I then again I didn't sleep that well last night. That is why I brought up spine to the OP.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ghost, no one was arguing your appreciation of accuracy. This is simply a public debate for others because many of us have met, shot with, or talked to people who don't understand what it means to be accurate with a traditional bow. It's still not very "mainstream" and therefore there's not a lot of understanding about what can be expected shooting a traditional bow as far as how well you can hit.

Might I ask though, what your scores were with 43# compared to 63# on an NFAA face?

Honestly though, the whole business of shooting heavy bows is entirely personal. It doesn't matter if you can barely hit a deer at five yards or are Robin Hood. As long as you're happy that's all that matters. Same with shooting lighter bows and hunting. If you're killing critters and are enjoying yourself, it doesn't matter.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I don't have a dog in this fight but keep in mind Kegan has been there done that. He used to regularly shot bows up into the high 70s. 

Yes for hunting you should shoot the most you can handle - you should also be honest about what you can handle. 

Accuracy kills animals - if you hit an elk in the shoulder it won't matter what your shooting it's going to walk away. 

90% of the guys reading this post will only hunt whitetails in their life. You can kill a whitetail with a fly swatter. 

If your stressing about penetration on a whitetail you should work on your shot selection and accuracy.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

kegan said:


> Ghost, no one was arguing your appreciation of accuracy. This is simply a public debate for others because many of us have met, shot with, or talked to people who don't understand what it means to be accurate with a traditional bow. It's still not very "mainstream" and therefore there's not a lot of understanding about what can be expected shooting a traditional bow as far as how well you can hit.
> 
> Might I ask though, what your scores were with 43# compared to 63# on an NFAA face?
> 
> Honestly though, the whole business of shooting heavy bows is entirely personal. It doesn't matter if you can barely hit a deer at five yards or are Robin Hood. As long as you're happy that's all that matters. Same with shooting lighter bows and hunting. If you're killing critters and are enjoying yourself, it doesn't matter.


I don't shoot nfaa face but I shot a 284 two weeks ago at a local 3D shoot with my 65# bob lee , mind over matter


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

If I could shoot 65# with any accuracy, I would do it in a minute.
Even at 52# I still get asked why I shoot so much....


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

westksbowhunter said:


> If I read my own post correctly, I thought I was preaching tuning, but I then again I didn't sleep that well last night. That is why I brought up spine to the OP.


gotcha, i wasn't trying to say my way was better or the OP should shoot heavier poundage, i was just giving my own perspective on the subject of heavier limbs and the mental state of accuracy and tuning


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> gotcha, i wasn't trying to say my way was better or the OP should shoot heavier poundage, i was just giving my own perspective on the subject of heavier limbs and the mental state of accuracy and tuning


No problem. I am just troubled by the OP and his thinking that he might need a 400 spine arrow. He is shooting a bow in the mid 40's at best if his draw indeed is at 27 inches. If he wants to shoot a mid weight arrow he needs a 600 spine. If he wants to load up and shoot a heavy arrow then he could step up to a 500 spine. But a 400 spine with his short draw is not going to work. 

We all know that most people switching over to traditional archery tend to over bow themselves. The OP has not done this. But most people new to traditional archery and those who have shot for years, tend to over spine themselves. Carbon arrows are spined for compounds. A bow in the mid to low 40's needs a 600 spine unless they are really loaded up then a 500 can work. A CE Heritage 90 would be perfect for the OP and give him the weight he wants.

Many shooters struggle with accuracy and one of the main causes is shooting an un-tuned arrow and incorrect spine. These things must be learned to truly enjoy shooting traditional.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

westksbowhunter said:


> No problem. I am just troubled by the OP and his thinking that he might need a 400 spine arrow. He is shooting a bow in the mid 40's at best if his draw indeed is at 27 inches. If he wants to shoot a mid weight arrow he needs a 600 spine. If we want to load up and shoot a heavy arrow then he could step up to a 500 spine. But a 400 spine with his short draw is not going to work.
> 
> We all know that most people switching over to traditional archery tend to over bow themselves. The OP has not done this. But most people new to traditional archery and those who have shot for years, tend to over spine themselves. Carbon arrows are spine for compounds. A bow in the mid to low 40's needs a 600 spine unless they are really loaded up then a 500 can work. A CE Heritage 90 would be perfect for the OP and give him the weight he wants.


hell i shoot 500 spine out of my 50# gamemaster, they fly perfect, granted they are aluminum but they are tuned perfect for my hoyt..., you can get a .600 spine arrow to weigh 500 grains and be deadly


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't hunt with my bows, only shoot targets, and I am not aware of the benefits of a heaver DW but I do know the advantages of a lighter DW.....Believe you me, I know my scores and accuracy, which are related, did indicate that I made the right choice by going to a 30lb bow......


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Bill 2311 said:


> If I could shoot 65# with any accuracy, I would do it in a minute.
> Even at 52# I still get asked why I shoot so much....


Really? This is what I mean. There are too many people pushing for extremes. Yes, a lighter bow is effective, but gear in the 40-55# range have been killing game animals cleanly for centuries. There's no reason, barring physical limits, not to work into that range- and there are plenty of people who can completely dominate a bow in that range. Many of the top IBO Longbow shooters compete with 50#, like Calvin Smock and Dave Wallace. 

There's too much emphasis on the extremes.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I hunt elk with a 48 lb longbow with no hesitation - tuning and a perfect arrow flight is key. My fletch shafts and bare shafts group together out to 50 yards. When I add an arrow with a broad head to the mix it groups right with the rest. 

Try shooting a group were you hold at anchor for a counted 25 seconds on every arrow - this will tell you pretty quick if your over bowed


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> I hunt elk with a 48 lb longbow with no hesitation - tuning and a perfect arrow flight is key. My fletch shafts and bare shafts group together out to 50 yards. When I add an arrow with a broad head to the mix it groups right with the rest.
> 
> Try shooting a group were you hold at anchor for a counted 25 seconds on every arrow - this will tell you pretty quick if your over bowed


Matt what longbow are you hunting with these days?
Dan


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> I hunt elk with a 48 lb longbow with no hesitation - tuning and a perfect arrow flight is key. My fletch shafts and bare shafts group together out to 50 yards. When I add an arrow with a broad head to the mix it groups right with the rest.
> 
> Try shooting a group were you hold at anchor for a counted 25 seconds on every arrow - this will tell you pretty quick if your over bowed


*Another Update:*

I built a new arrow using GT Trad 500 spine arrow with _*187 gr*_ up front. Arrow cut 27" C to C. Total wt is _*438 gr.*_ At first the arrow hit with tail left. We and cut 1/2" off to current length and now its just a hair on the weak side. Current picture. The tip is close to the riser so if I have to cut much more off I will have to jump up to 400 spine. (White nock) 



What do you guys think? Should I get a couple more arrows made up and group tune? Or build a 400 spine arrow and get the bare shaft hitting straight?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'd go with a lighter gpi .400 but that is just me.

Grant


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

grantmac said:


> I'd go with a lighter gpi .400 but that is just me.
> 
> Grant


It looks like the Hunter XT 400 spine are 8.2 pgi witch is 0.4 gpi less then the GT Trad 500 spine. 

https://goldtip.com/productdetail.aspx?ptid=190


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I was thinking the warrior or velocity. They are 7.3 I believe.

Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SM -

I'm coming into the discussion late, but at what distance are you bare shafting? 
First, most "bowhunters" over think tuning. Sure it's important, but a perfect tune implies a perfect shot. 
That may not happen when hunting, so the "perfect" tune may be moot.
The term "close enough for gov't work" becomes very real here.

If I wanted to be persnickety, based on your last picture I wouldn't trust your results.
The target appears too close and for a real read, a weak arrow must be both impacting to the right of the fletched arrows and show a tail left kick-out. 
Usually when I see conflicting planing and kick-outs, it's shooter error.

Apologies, if this was covered already.

Viper1 out.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Nock left more than 3 inches. Just like paper tuning. move up to the 400.
Dan


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

*Update:*

I built a GT Hunter 400 spine 8.2 gpi cut to 27 3/4" c to c with 207 gr up front. Total wt is _*450 gr*_. Only took a couple times cutting 1/4" increments off the back to get the bare shaft right. It also really quieted the bow down. I still need to play around with the nock points. Hitting a little high. Target is 18 yards away. 





Here is the video on tuning.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'd run with that all day long.

Grant


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Matt what longbow are you hunting with these days?
> Dan


A warfed dorado handle with dryad ACS limbs using a flipper rest too - "longbow" is one of those relative terms LOL

Arrows are full length maxima blues with 125 stingers - I don't know what they weigh.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sierra

Fletch it and go - I wouldn't change anything


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Sierra - looks dandy .
some feathers and away I'd go .


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> A warfed dorado handle with dryad ACS limbs using a flipper rest too - "longbow" is one of those relative terms LOL
> 
> Arrows are full length maxima blues with 125 stingers - I don't know what they weigh.


Your so not trad .

Next you'll be aiming .......


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

I agree with these other guys, fletch those arrows and see what they do with broadheads. If they are hitting with the field points you're golden.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

If you are close to even straight flight with a bare shaft, broadheads will fly well for you.
Bare shafts are my tuning tool for any bow. I shoot them out to 35 yards with the compound and as a result I can get fixed blade broadheads to fly with field points out to 50 yards.
Not a hunting shot, but shows the level of tune that can be achieved.
For the recurve, I like 20 yards as a bare shaft distance. 
I try to shoot a lot of bare shafts just as a form tool. They keep me honest on my grip and release. There is always at least one in the quiver when I go to practice.


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