# Biomechanics.....secret sauce



## ron w

absolutely.....
a perfect example is that small movement of your forward foot as you switch from left to right side of a 5 spot target. it may only be a 1/2 inch at your foot, but sets your biomechanics in the right angular direction to hit the x-ring. 
many guys have a problem with one spot of a 5 spot target, that they just can't seem get an "X" on one particular bulls eye, because they don't make that small adjustment in their stance.
the exactly right draw length is also, all ......that is to say, "entirely".....about this same subject matter.


----------



## tmorelli

Call me close minded. I'm not interested in my hips shifting from their current location under my shoulders and over my feet so I won't be running this experiment. 

Shifting those hips forward is a huge step towards unhinging the bow shoulder. I will not sacrifice this. As a matter of fact, hips forward is a horrible habit that I work with most shooters to break...and they see MASSIVE results from getting more upright.


----------



## Bees

when I do this while aiming I notice my picture sight goes up or down.

IF I move my Pelvis/hips more towards my in steps of my feet
It affects how much weight I have on my toes
also affects where my shoulders align in reference to my target line.

I have been shifting around trying to find the best position for me to shoot out of.
so far I haven't reached any conclusions. 

Can't determine If I should shoot with open stance and open shoulders
or closed stance and closed shoulders or somewhere in between.


----------



## tmorelli

Hips rearward would be a condition I've never seen. I can see it driving tension in the shot.


----------



## montigre

ron w said:


> absolutely.....
> a perfect example is that small movement of your forward foot as you switch from left to right side of a 5 spot target. it may only be a 1/2 inch at your foot, but sets your biomechanics in the right angular direction to hit the x-ring.
> many guys have a problem with one spot of a 5 spot target, that they just can't seem get an "X" on one particular bulls eye, because they don't make that small adjustment in their stance.
> the exactly right draw length is also, all ......that is to say, "entirely".....about this same subject matter.


I have a question here....If you line up with the middle dot on a 5-spot face, does that initial positioning negate the need to move your leading foot while shooting the right spots (for a right-handed shooter)? I understand that there is a minute DL change as you transition from the left side of the target to the right, but is this change alone sufficient to cause someone to drop an X on the right if centrally aligned? Thanks for your input.


----------



## Kstigall

tmorelli said:


> Call me close minded. I'm not interested in my hips shifting from their current location under my shoulders and over my feet so I won't be running this experiment.
> 
> Shifting those hips forward is a huge step towards unhinging the bow shoulder. I will not sacrifice this. As a matter of fact, hips forward is a horrible habit that I work with most shooters to break...and they see MASSIVE results from getting more upright.


Exactly what I was thinking but then again I'm not an expert on biomechanics or archery.....

Back when I first started shooting some decent spot scores I leaned back quite a bit. I could hold very steady. About 4 or 5 years ago I started getting sever lower back pain after about 25 - 30 shots. I could complete the game with a decent score of about 58 X's. However, the problem got worse and I felt that if I didn't change my form I wouldn't be able to stay in the game. It took at least a year of focus to completely get away from the twisted lean and my scores suffered. But I'm still in the game and shooting fairly well for me.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend anybody that is NOT very experienced going away from "classic" form and/or does not have a very knowledgeable person helping/coaching them in person. It seems that one is as likely to harm their shot as they are to improve their shot by the above "test".


----------



## Kstigall

I suggest picking something in the middle and sticking with it. It can be hard to do if we aren't shooting our best. Then after some time make a very minor adjustment and stick with it for a while. Proceed with making very small adjustments but be sure to stick with each for a fair evaluation period. If your scores seems to stay the same just stick with one that is comfortable and forget about it. I know I can get bogged down on trying little things with no improvements and I just end up frustrated.



Bees said:


> when I do this while aiming I notice my picture sight goes up or down.
> 
> IF I move my Pelvis/hips more towards my in steps of my feet
> It affects how much weight I have on my toes
> also affects where my shoulders align in reference to my target line.
> 
> I have been shifting around trying to find the best position for me to shoot out of.
> so far I haven't reached any conclusions.
> 
> Can't determine If I should shoot with open stance and open shoulders
> or closed stance and closed shoulders or somewhere in between.


----------



## Inc.

montigre said:


> I have a question here....If you line up with the middle dot on a 5-spot face, does that initial positioning negate the need to move your leading foot while shooting the right spots (for a right-handed shooter)? I understand that there is a minute DL change as you transition from the left side of the target to the right, but is this change alone sufficient to cause someone to drop an X on the right if centrally aligned? Thanks for your input.


Unless you have a specific reason not to , nail your feet to the floor. 
To answer your question , no it will not keep you out of the X -


----------



## tmorelli

I see that NB is really pointing to taking the hips toward the rear foot.... for an untrained shooter this may well mean "more upright" in which case they'd likely see some benefit. There aren't many who can reach their potential with the lean back that seems to happen naturally without training otherwise.

So, I can see an experiment being valuable for a shooter who has no training and is at the mercy of his natural tendency...and doesn't know where his hips are now. If you start experimenting with rocking your hips forward, I might say you are off your rocker.

I consider the direction needed to be more precise than "try it and see".


----------



## TCR1

nuts&bolts said:


> Biomechanics
> 
> Ankle bone connected to the leg bone connected to the knee bone connected to a ball
> and socket hip joint connected to the hip girdle connected to your lumbar region (low back).
> 
> This is where the action is.
> 
> It all starts from the legs.
> 
> Specifically. ...a PRETEND STICKER on your T-Shirt
> directly in front of your belly button.
> 
> Experiment with a controlled lateral....sideways....horizontal movement
> sideways shift
> with this stationary position of this PRETEND STICKER on your t-shirt
> in front of your belly button.
> 
> Move this sticker half an inch sideways
> towards your rear ankle.
> 
> Keep this new position stationary throughout your shot.
> 
> Learn how this PRETEND STICKER on your T-shirt affects your x-count....
> 
> This can have a MASSIVE effect for some shooters.
> 
> Biomechanics.
> 
> Nuff said.


Wouldn't it be easier to tell me to shoot with a tightened core? I think that is what you are trying to say? Shift your hips horizontally rearward(am I shooting downhill)? I notice if I shoot relaxed core my pelvis wants to rotate towards the target, when I tighten up, the pelvis turns so that my belly button and God-given plumb bob are in alignment, but I don't think that is what you are saying, or maybe it is.


----------



## ron w

tmorelli said:


> Call me close minded. I'm not interested in my hips shifting from their current location under my shoulders and over my feet so I won't be running this experiment.
> 
> Shifting those hips forward is a huge step towards unhinging the bow shoulder. I will not sacrifice this. As a matter of fact, hips forward is a horrible habit that I work with most shooters to break...and they see MASSIVE results from getting more upright.


 tmorelli, 
who the "H" said anything about hips shifting in the above posts......for cripes sake read what is posted and comprehend what you read. you have a real penchant for inserting more into peoples' posts than is there.......maybe you need to have some reading comprehension classes.


----------



## xavier102772

I always wonde why people analyze form to death and nitpick the smallest detail of form and execution. I agree there are some basic form mechanics and techniques all archers should strive towards to maximise their efficiency and effectiveness of shot and execution. However, the overanalysis that is overly prevalent seems to be overkill to me. I would think that *learning the rules and then bending/modifying the rules to your body mechanics and style, then practice, practice, practice* makes the most sense. If perfect technique and mechanics were necessary to shoot at the top of the archery world, arguably the best archer in the world, Reo Wilde would be right near the bottom because his technique is so "flawed". 

What if a guy leans back a few inches but scores 300's all the time, with 29-30x's. Would changing his technique to the "proper technique" make him a better archer?


----------



## Inc.

Kstigall said:


> I suggest picking something in the middle and sticking with it. It can be hard to do if we aren't shooting our best. Then after some time make a very minor adjustment and stick with it for a while. Proceed with making very small adjustments but be sure to stick with each for a fair evaluation period. If your scores seems to stay the same just stick with one that is comfortable and forget about it. I know I can get bogged down on trying little things with no improvements and I just end up frustrated.


 Awesome advice: Your stance may never be perfect , your form will never be text book perfect , release perfect , etc ... Just as you spend time building good form we need to spend time learning to trust our shots. 
Its impossible to trust your shot if your working on your form.


----------



## tmorelli

ron w said:


> tmorelli,
> who the "H" said anything about hips shifting in the above posts......for cripes sake read what is posted and comprehend what you read. you have a real penchant for inserting more into peoples' posts than is there.......maybe you need to have some reading comprehension classes.


You are a special one Ron. Either you need to re-read it or NB needs to clarify. You went down a rabbit trail with your first response as far as I can see. 

You are talking stance....or maybe rotating the hips or some other unrelated topic. NB didn't say a thing about rotation or stance...he's talking about "sliding" the hips to the back.

So, if I interpretted NB's hieroglyphics correctly....and you didn't...will you be apologizing publicly?


----------



## miko0618

nuts&bolts said:


> Biomechanics
> 
> Ankle bone connected to the leg bone connected to the knee bone connected to a ball
> and socket hip joint connected to the hip girdle connected to your lumbar region (low back).
> 
> This is where the action is.
> 
> It all starts from the legs.
> 
> Specifically. ...a PRETEND STICKER on your T-Shirt
> directly in front of your belly button.
> 
> Experiment with a controlled lateral....sideways....horizontal movement
> sideways shift
> with this stationary position of this PRETEND STICKER on your t-shirt
> in front of your belly button.
> 
> Move this sticker half an inch sideways
> towards your rear ankle.
> 
> Keep this new position stationary throughout your shot.
> 
> Learn how this PRETEND STICKER on your T-shirt affects your x-count....
> 
> This can have a MASSIVE effect for some shooters.
> 
> Biomechanics.
> 
> Nuff said.


What will we experience with these cuanges? How will each affect my body and bow?


----------



## TCR1

Ron,
I am not the most athletically talented person in the world, but I like to think I can hold my own. Standing as I normally do, I cannot shift a "pretend sticker" that was "placed in front of my belly button" "horizontally", without either 1: allowing my core to be loose and thus the belly button moves rotationally (and in 2d, horizonatally) when the core is tightened (as I surmised), or 2.) by shifting my hips rearward or dipping my shoulder forward. which I think tmoreli suggested (can't speak for him really). However, if he is correct, then these are the types of movements required for shooting uphill and downhill on a field or 3D course, but I don't see their application to indoor. 

I'm here trying to learn and help others that I can. I might be crazy and completely wrong in my understanding of things and how they affect me, but welcome to the internet.

BTW, I addressed this specifically to you, since I think you associated some of my comments to Tmoreli.


----------



## TCR1

xavier102772 said:


> I always wonde why people analyze form to death and nitpick the smallest detail of form and execution. I agree there are some basic form mechanics and techniques all archers should strive towards to maximise their efficiency and effectiveness of shot and execution. However, the overanalysis that is overly prevalent seems to be overkill to me. I would think that *learning the rules and then bending/modifying the rules to your body mechanics and style, then practice, practice, practice* makes the most sense. If perfect technique and mechanics were necessary to shoot at the top of the archery world, arguably the best archer in the world, Reo Wilde would be right near the bottom because his technique is so "flawed".
> 
> What if a guy leans back a few inches but scores 300's all the time, with 29-30x's. Would changing his technique to the "proper technique" make him a better archer?


I like Reo. Heck, I like the whole Wilde family (really nice people). And Reo is a good example for this thread, but maybe he could benefit long term from tightening up. Who knows. He is a young guy. Maybe he might run into trouble in the future like KStigall (not a young guy based on his talk on threads here) mentioned and then he will need to rebuild later in life to keep enjoying the game. Another example is/was TGillingham when he was notorious as "the Hammer" for his release technique. I'm not sure if he still shoots that way or not, but he lit the world up shooting that way even though everyone knows an "unanticipated shot" is preferred. 

In any event, I agree that optimum and what works for everyone is not the same. But striving to meet certain principals of biomechanics is generally helpful to everyone within their physiological capacity. (for example, see my post in the release hand thread)


----------



## Slingshot

montigre said:


> I have a question here....If you line up with the middle dot on a 5-spot face, does that initial positioning negate the need to move your leading foot while shooting the right spots (for a right-handed shooter)? I understand that there is a minute DL change as you transition from the left side of the target to the right, but is this change alone sufficient to cause someone to drop an X on the right if centrally aligned? Thanks for your input.


Yes line up with the middle and forget about moving your feet... 

The target does not move or shift, why would you?

If your line up with the center than you are all set. The reason for missing a particular spot has more to do with what's going on with your arms, and or peep alignment. Some people drop their head on the bottom targets which causes misalignment of the sight and peep.


----------



## miko0618

nuts&bolts said:


> Biomechanics
> 
> Ankle bone connected to the leg bone connected to the knee bone connected to a ball
> and socket hip joint connected to the hip girdle connected to your lumbar region (low back).
> 
> This is where the action is.
> 
> It all starts from the legs.
> 
> Specifically. ...a PRETEND STICKER on your T-Shirt
> directly in front of your belly button.
> 
> Experiment with a controlled lateral....sideways....horizontal movement
> sideways shift
> with this stationary position of this PRETEND STICKER on your t-shirt
> in front of your belly button.
> 
> Move this sticker half an inch sideways
> towards your rear ankle.
> 
> Keep this new position stationary throughout your shot.
> 
> Learn how this PRETEND STICKER on your T-shirt affects your x-count....
> 
> This can have a MASSIVE effect for some shooters.
> 
> Biomechanics.
> 
> Nuff said.


Any idea whats going to happen when i do this? I would like some idea so i know i am doing it right. Can you please answer me? I am curious how these biomechanics arw going to affect me. Maybe i can then apply it to a weakness in my shot?


----------



## nuts&bolts

TCR1 said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to tell me to shoot with a tightened core? I think that is what you are trying to say? Shift your hips horizontally rearward(am I shooting downhill)? I notice if I shoot relaxed core my pelvis wants to rotate towards the target, when I tighten up, the pelvis turns so that my belly button and God-given plumb bob are in alignment, but I don't think that is what you are saying, or maybe it is.


I should have clarified.

Indoor spots.
Level ground.
18 meters.
20 yards.
Vegas face.
NFAA 5 spot face.


----------



## miko0618

nuts&bolts said:


> I should have clarified.
> 
> Indoor spots.
> Level ground.
> 18 meters.
> 20 yards.
> Vegas face.
> NFAA 5 spot face.


Can you clarify what will happen with each adjustment?


----------



## cbrunson

Inc. said:


> Unless you have a specific reason not to , nail your feet to the floor.
> To answer your question , no it will not keep you out of the X -


I pick this one.^^^^^^ There is no reason to move your feet to adjust from the right side of the target to the left. Some people overthink the crap out of things. Or just make things up when they are bored.


----------



## nuts&bolts

TCR1 said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to tell me to shoot with a tightened core? I think that is what you are trying to say? Shift your hips horizontally rearward(am I shooting downhill)? I notice if I shoot relaxed core my pelvis wants to rotate towards the target, when I tighten up, the pelvis turns so that my belly button and God-given plumb bob are in alignment, but I don't think that is what you are saying, or maybe it is.


So,
level ground,
indoor spots,
lateral shift of the hips towards the *REAR* ankle..
might be a 1/2-inch movement,
might a little less,
could be a little more...

a LATERAL shift,
in the coronal plane...

So, a right handed shooter,
holds bow in LEFT hand,
holds release in the RIGHT hand,
so a lateral shift towards the RIGHT ankle (REAR foot)..
a small horizontal shift
can increase the stability of the torso, during the 
follow through reaction (bow side and release side)
for *SOME* shooters.

This lateral shift in the coronal plane,
creates a cascade reaction,
in *SOME* shooters
which transcends body archetypes.

Tightened core,
cross body tension, torsion intentionally...
has interesting effects.

Not talking about cross body tension.

This lateral shift of the hip joints,
away from the target, towards the right ankle (for a RH shooter)
has been effective
in stabilizing the pelvis, during the shot follow through reaction.


----------



## cbrunson

Oh. You mean stand up straight and keep even weight on both feet. That makes more sense.


----------



## miko0618

By shifting rearwards you are contributing to an already forward (bow arm) heavy situation. I would theorize that it would require a lighter bow and a shorter draw. I will check to confirm your results


----------



## nuts&bolts

cbrunson said:


> Oh. You mean stand up straight and keep even weight on both feet. That makes more sense.


Essentially.
For some,
I need the shooter to experiment with an un-even weight balance,
so,
rather than say go for a 40/60 split, 60% on your RIGHT ankle (for a RH shooter)
it was much easier to convey the concept
as move your belt buckle sideways...

try 1/4-inch
try 1/2-inch
then,
once they learned the concept,
the cascade reaction was amazing to observe.

The simple sideways movement,
lower body center of gravity (again...I'm talking indoor spots only)
fixed a collapsing shoulder for a recurve shooter

fixed a hitting/holding low for a compound shooter,
and the increase in stability (core) 
was dramatic.....for SOME shooters.

The cascade reaction was reproducible
for multiple shooters,
all different body types and ages 
(they are all right handed..wide range of ages...very wide range of body types).


----------



## miko0618

As i am typing, i am also shooting outside at 83 yards. Over snow. In the wind. Because thats how western pa rolls...

Anyway, by shifting back it duplicates my above theory. It drives the bow down towards the ground in front of me. Making it impossible to hold on the target. I feel i would need to shorten my bow and remove my front stabilizer.


----------



## miko0618

It made no affect on my release or follow through.


----------



## tmorelli

miko0618 said:


> As i am typing, i am also shooting outside at 83 yards. Over snow. In the wind. Because thats how western pa rolls...
> 
> Anyway, by shifting back it duplicates my above theory. It drives the bow down towards the ground in front of me. Making it impossible to hold on the target. I feel i would need to shorten my bow and remove my front stabilizer.


Because you are already upright. For this to create a benefit, we'd almost have to assume the hips are forward by default. 

Like i said above, hip location is just an element of classic t-form. This is taught by most coaches worth their salt. Not "secret sauce"....unless you just figured it out I suppose. Forward weakens/raises the front shoulder....back just creates tension or assists in maintaining t-form in down hill shooting. 

Are we looking for shooters with one leg longer than the other or crooked spines now?

Now then, where is Ron? His crow is ready and from my POV....its gonna be tasty.


----------



## miko0618

Ron is re-writing his explanation on the phantom 3rd axis. Give him a minute...


----------



## bigHUN

nuts&bolts said:


> I should have clarified.
> 
> Indoor spots.
> Level ground.
> 18 meters.
> 20 yards.
> Vegas face.
> NFAA 5 spot face.


YES, this shall be stated :thumbs_up
but as a short learning process only to gain confidence....I believe not good if becomes a habit....
I almost started typing about some kung fu positions down deep in the Field 
but the words just can not describe some really challenging trails :ninja:


----------



## miko0618

miko0618 said:


> Ron is re-writing his explanation on the phantom 3rd axis. Give him a minute...


I'm just joking ron w


----------



## montigre

nuts&bolts said:


> Essentially.
> For some,
> I need the shooter to experiment with an un-even weight balance,
> so,
> rather than say go for a 40/60 split, 60% on your RIGHT ankle (for a RH shooter)
> it was much easier to convey the concept
> as move your belt buckle sideways...
> 
> try 1/4-inch
> try 1/2-inch
> then,
> once they learned the concept,
> the cascade reaction was amazing to observe.
> 
> The simple sideways movement,
> lower body center of gravity (again...I'm talking indoor spots only)
> fixed a collapsing shoulder for a recurve shooter
> 
> fixed a hitting/holding low for a compound shooter,
> and the increase in stability (core)
> was dramatic.....for SOME shooters.
> 
> The cascade reaction was reproducible
> for multiple shooters,
> all different body types and ages
> (they are all right handed..wide range of ages...very wide range of body types).


I think I might understand this a little better now. A similar effect might also be obtained by having a right-handed shooter open his/her outside foot laterally a few degrees (rotating it very slightly on the heel). This produces a nearly imperceptible shift in the body's balance without negatively altering the upper body form. I have found this technique very useful when shooting FITA games in a stiff cross wind--it made my feet feel like they are anchoring deeper into the ground, so there must have been a corresponding shift in my center of gravity rearward..... Interesting.


----------



## nuts&bolts

montigre said:


> I think I might understand this a little better now. A similar effect might also be obtained by having a right-handed shooter open his/her outside foot laterally a few degrees (rotating it very slightly on the heel). This produces a nearly imperceptible shift in the body's balance without negatively altering the upper body form. I have found this technique very useful when shooting FITA games in a stiff cross wind--it made my feet feel like they are anchoring deeper into the ground, so there must have been a corresponding shift in my center of gravity rearward..... Interesting.


thank you montages.

I had not considered this variation.
it brings to mind some interesting possibilities.
external rotation in the right foot...for a RH shooter.
left foot square to the arrow flight path.

What happens to cross body tension?
What happens to the pelvis...alignment during release of the arrow?
If the external rotation of the right side foot...knee..thigh is more stable...
why would that be?
Is this involuntary cross body tension? 

Thank you. I need to noodle on this and then test and verify.


----------



## Kstigall

ron w said:


> tmorelli,
> *who the "H" *said anything about hips shifting in the above posts......for cripes sake read what is posted and comprehend what you read. you have a real penchant for inserting more into peoples' posts than is there.......maybe you need to have some reading comprehension classes.


TMo,
Time to replace "Umbrella Elitist" with "what the "H"" and to take a "reading comprehension class" :chortle: ......... By the way, "What the H" did you do to ron w to get him so puckered up?


----------



## Kstigall

TCR1 said:


> Ron,
> I am not the most athletically talented person in the world, but I like to think I can hold my own. Standing as I normally do, I cannot shift a "pretend sticker" that was "placed in front of my belly button" "horizontally", without either 1: allowing my core to be loose and thus the belly button moves rotationally (and in 2d, horizonatally) when the core is tightened (as I surmised), or 2.) by shifting my hips rearward or dipping my shoulder forward. which I think tmoreli suggested (can't speak for him really). However, if he is correct, then these are the types of movements required for shooting uphill and downhill on a field or 3D course, but I don't see their application to indoor.
> 
> 
> I'm here trying to learn and help others that I can. I might be crazy and completely wrong in my understanding of things and how they affect me, but welcome to the internet.
> 
> BTW, I addressed this specifically to you, since I think you associated some of my comments to Tmoreli.



:spit: _Maybe_ on a good day..... I'm fairly certain _most_ mature mountain goats could probably out run you across a mountain. Notice I said "most" not all!


----------



## ron w

Kstigall, if I did,.... i'm sorry for the confusion!
I think N&B was trying to explain that you cannot move one part of your body without it affect another part. yor stance gains it's stability through your center of gravity, and if that is aligned with your hips and shoulders properly, you move your point of aim up and down slightly by shift your hips either forward or back, laterally to the target face. ithe idea is to do this rather than changing the association going on at your shoulders because that arrangement is stable in a far smaller range of association and it is the basis that maintains your draw length and dynamic tension across your the back of your shoulders, that produces the shot.
of course Tmorelli, had to inject all sorts of "extra twisted meaning" into the post and make himself sound like nobody else knew what they were talking about.


----------



## cbrunson

It's a crap shoot translating the hieroglyphics.


----------



## tmorelli

ron w said:


> Kstigall, if I did,.... i'm sorry for the confusion!
> I think N&B was trying to explain that you cannot move one part of your body without it affect another part. yor stance gains it's stability through your center of gravity, and if that is aligned with your hips and shoulders properly, you move your point of aim up and down slightly by shift your hips either forward or back, laterally to the target face. ithe idea is to do this rather than changing the association going on at your shoulders because that arrangement is stable in a far smaller range of association and it is the basis that maintains your draw length and dynamic tension across your the back of your shoulders, that produces the shot.
> of course Tmorelli, had to inject all sorts of "extra twisted meaning" into the post and make himself sound like nobody else knew what they were talking about.


Earth to Ron w. 

You still don't get it. I know who needs reading comprehension classes. 

smh

NB has posted this basic element of form all over as new "secret sauce". Your head is so far up his butt you dream stuff up to try to justify it. Come up for air and go find us yet another 3rd axis.


----------



## JawsDad

I thought the secret sauce was PI. Guess I've been away to long..


----------



## cbrunson

tmorelli said:


> Earth to Ron w.
> 
> You still don't get it. I know who needs reading comprehension classes.
> 
> smh
> 
> NB has posted this basic element of form all over as new "secret sauce". Your head is so far up his butt you dream stuff up to try to justify it. Come up for air and go find us yet another 3rd axis.


Glad I wasn't drinking when I read that ^^^^^


----------



## miko0618

I think there are a few people that definately like his secret sauce from his hip movement. We weren't thinking about it right. Thanks ron!


----------



## ron w

tmorelli said:


> Earth to Ron w.
> 
> You still don't get it. I know who needs reading comprehension classes.
> 
> smh
> 
> NB has posted this basic element of form all over as new "secret sauce". Your head is so far up his butt you dream stuff up to try to justify it. Come up for air and go find us yet another 3rd axis.


 tmorelli,
if you actually knew anything about the subject, you wouldn't have to resort to vile immature comments like this and would be able to explain why someone's thinking is wrong compared to yours, being "right", with at least some semblance of technical language. grow up and at least try to act like an adult here.


----------



## tmorelli

ron w said:


> tmorelli,
> if you actually knew anything about the subject, you wouldn't have to resort to vile immature comments like this and would be able to explain why someone's thinking is wrong compared to yours, being "right", with at least some semblance of technical language. grow up and at least try to act like an adult here.


Whoa. Vile and immature? You started this crap out of nowhere. Go read it all again...maybe it will click this time. I didn't say a damn thing to you. You came at me off some crap you thought you read.

My posts are on topic in each case. 

I actually confirmed what NB was saying....just in a slightly different way with some clarifications as to who/why benefits from it and you got your panties in a wad. The key here is the starting point of the shooter's hips....because we are looking for "ideal" which is most likely right under the shoulders and over the feet. So, if they are already under the shoulders.... Back probably isn't a good idea. If they are already forward.... Back probably is a good idea. 

You need a reality check or some new meds. 

Please put me on your ignore list.


----------



## cbrunson

miko0618 said:


> I think there are a few people that definately like his secret sauce from his hip movement. We weren't thinking about it right. Thanks ron!


:laugh:


----------



## ron w

why would I put you on the ignore list, reading your posts is kind of like reading the funny papers on Sunday morning.....good for a little chuckle, but not much more.

i'm done with you now.


----------



## tmorelli

ron w said:


> why would I put you on the ignore list, reading your posts is kind of like reading the funny papers on Sunday morning.....good for a little chuckle, but not much more.
> 
> i'm done with you now.


I bet you get those jokes on Tuesday.


----------



## miko0618

tmorelli said:


> I bet you get those jokes on Tuesday.


Unlikely


----------



## montigre

JawsDad said:


> I thought the secret sauce was PI. Guess I've been away to long..


PI is the old secret sauce, this is the new and improved sauce....:darkbeer:


----------



## montigre

ron w said:


> I think N&B was trying to explain that you cannot move one part of your body without it affect another part. yor stance gains it's stability through your center of gravity, and if that is aligned with your hips and shoulders properly, you move your point of aim up and down slightly by shift your hips either forward or back, laterally to the target face. ithe idea is to do this rather than changing the association going on at your shoulders because that arrangement is stable in a far smaller range of association and it is the basis that maintains your draw length and dynamic tension across your the back of your shoulders, that produces the shot.


No, I do not feel he was talking about that at all.... Your explanation was worse than trying to read one of OBT's posts without the decoder ring....


----------



## miko0618

I think nuts and bolts thinks he figured something out that nobody else ever has. That would be my guess. And hes trying to sell it to the general masses. Except now the only people that will just believe are the bubble clan. 


Nuff said


----------



## miko0618




----------



## bowtecha

miko0618 said:


> View attachment 1905036


Lmfao!!!


----------



## cbrunson

Mickey D's used the secret sauce as a marketing tool for years. A little revitalization might just be the ticket.


----------



## ron w

wow, it's incredible how a bunch of guys can know how important the right draw length is, or a good stance is, and then not make the connection between that and a thread about biomechanics
ingnorance.....simply mass ignorance.


----------



## cbrunson

ron w said:


> wow, it's incredible how a bunch of guys can know how important the right draw length is, or a good stance is, and then not make the connection between that and a thread about biomechanics
> ingnorance.....simply mass ignorance.


No I believe some times people like to make common sense confusing or mysterious.


----------



## Bees

miko0618 said:


> I think nuts and bolts thinks he figured something out that nobody else ever has. That would be my guess. And hes trying to sell it to the general masses. Except now the only people that will just believe are the bubble clan.
> 
> 
> Nuff said


nope he has figured out how to help archers that are having problems with their form.
So he notices a weight shift toward the rear fixes some problems for some archers.
He reports his findings and waits to see if any others experience the same fix. 

Personally I don't suffer from those problems so the rearward weight shift doesn't do anything good for me.

I don't understand why you guys have to ridicule, 
just because he is having success helping people that have form issues. 
appears to me, some are jealous of his success.


----------



## Fury90flier

Bees said:


> nope he has figured out how to help archers that are having problems with their form.
> So he notices a weight shift toward the rear fixes some problems for some archers.
> He reports his findings and waits to see if any others experience the same fix.
> 
> Personally I don't suffer from those problems so the rearward weight shift doesn't do anything good for me.
> 
> *I don't understand why you guys have to ridicule*,
> just because he is having success helping people that have form issues.
> appears to me, some are jealous of his success.


When one feels bad about themselves (low self esteem), one will tend to easily bash others...


----------



## miko0618

Fury90flier said:


> When one feels bad about themselves (low self esteem), one will tend to easily bash others...


Have you ever considered that hes not all hes cracked up to be?


----------



## Fury90flier

I have no interest in his cracks.


----------



## miko0618

Fury90flier said:


> I have no interest in his cracks.


Yeah right...


----------



## Bees

miko0618 said:


> Have you ever considered that hes not all hes cracked up to be?


If people are going to his seminars and they genuinely believe that they have learned something that will help them, 
then maybe he is all he is cracked up to be. time will certainly tell that tale.. 


You as coaches should learn how to use the internet as a coaching tool like he is.
Kind of a pioneer actually, 
because no one before has used the internet in quite this way:
to reach out and find the people who want help and have them actually come and get some help and pay money for the help. 
I can see why the rest of the coaches might be a little miffed because he has more students in a relatively short period of time. 

Next he should Franchise his business and have all of the rest of you coaches working for him.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Bees said:


> If people are going to his seminars and they genuinely believe that they have learned something that will help them,
> then maybe he is all he is cracked up to be. time will certainly tell that tale..
> 
> 
> You as coaches should learn how to use the internet as a coaching tool like he is.
> Kind of a pioneer actually,
> because no one before has used the internet in quite this way to reach out and find the people who want help and actually come and get some help.
> I can see why the rest of the coaches might be a little miffed because he has more students in a relatively short period of time.
> 
> Next he should Franchise his business and have all of the rest of you coaches working for him.


Hmmmmmmmmm.

Hehehe.


----------



## miko0618

Harold Camping


----------



## Fury90flier

Harold Farming.


----------



## Kstigall

Alright boys let's get this over with........... Someone grab a microscope and and small calipers. All wieners on the table and let the measuring begin.


----------



## cbrunson

Kstigall said:


> Alright boys let's get this over with........... Someone grab a microscope and and small calipers. All wieners on the table and let the measuring begin.


Apparently not everyone’s experience with the correct measurement tools for this contest is the same.

Sorry, couldn’t resist. :grin:


----------



## Bees

Kstigall said:


> Alright boys let's get this over with........... Someone grab a microscope and and small calipers. All wieners on the table and let the measuring begin.


Maybe the MOD will come and lock it down.....


----------



## Beastmaster

Considering that USA Archery coaches have been using Skype and other videoconferencing tools plus video since 2009 with the Junior Dream Team, I don't find this remote coaching anything exciting or new. 

One of the most successful Junior Olympic programs is comprised of all remote students since 2010. I don't see anything innovative in remote coaching at all.


----------



## cbrunson

Bees said:


> Maybe the MOD will come and lock it down.....


Why? Because some don't agree with the OP? It seems he has been targeted more as a result of his followers actions than his own. I don't believe NB has said anything to justify his thread getting locked down.


----------



## Kstigall

What N&B says is not "special sauce". How he say's it and markets it may be the "special sauce". Stand up straight is "basic" archery. Rotating the front foot to find your best balance/shooting stance is common knowledge. As you become more expert in your shooting you try different subtle things.

I learned a lot about variances in shooting styles by watching the best archers in the world for over 8 hours over the course of two days at the 2006 LAS Classic. I learned to shoot properly in the '78. I learned that there are expert archers that do NOT use a hinge release. There are expert archers that lean back. There are expert archers that use open and closed stances. There are expert archers that use index trigger releases. There are expert archers that tilt their heads into the string. There are expert archers shooting draw lengths that _appear_ to be too long. There are expert archers that can visibly rotate a hinge with extreme precision. I've seen guys shoot incredible scores with what appears to be too much heal. I still frequently study footage of the best archers and I am NOT looking at their scores or much care if they won or lost!

I think N&B's "secret sauce" is selling and promoting what any of us could research for ourselves. At the end of the day however an archers ability to execute shots with extreme consistency, to deal with "failure" and to shoot with a relaxed mind is what it's all about. There are a lot of video and pics out there of some great archers. Study these pics/videos and you can see subtle variances. An archer must KNOW his shot personally, especially his draw length, if he hopes to advance much beyond mediocrity.

N&B can help archers that have fundamental flaws in their shot, beginners and maybe give ideas for experimenting. I think it's great he's getting this basic knowledge exposed to so many. But at the end of the day one must figure out for themselves what works for them.


----------



## Shooter6

miko0618 said:


> View attachment 1905036



Zultan!!


----------



## miko0618

Lol. You dont dare disageee with zultan!


----------



## miko0618

The problem is the same. When n & b is questioned, he cannot answer it. I now have a list of about 15 questions from information he has provided that neither he or his bubble can can answer.


----------



## Lazarus

Kstigall said:


> What N&B says is not "special sauce". How he say's it and markets it may be the "special sauce".


Quality post above. But with all due respect, referencing the quoted portion, that's not what he said. He said in the title; "Biomechanics.....special sauce" then in the body of his OP he tended to try to explain something in a somewhat cryptic manner that would indicate to the reader; you aren't smart enough to understand all of this, let me explain it to you for the low, low price of $49.95. It's advertising, plain and simple. Something that it appears he has paid for the right to do. Unfortunately a lot of people believe the "special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun" approach. 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can see precisely why people get annoyed with it. It's no different than having a TV show interrupted by a commercial (if TV is your thing.) Nice thing is, you can turn it off. For those of us that have, it's kinda like commercials during the super bowl, you still get caught up talking about it occasionally.


----------



## miko0618

Lazarus said:


> Quality post above. But with all due respect, referencing the quoted portion, that's not what he said. He said in the title; "Biomechanics.....special sauce" then in the body of his OP he tended to try to explain something in a somewhat cryptic manner that would indicate to the reader; you aren't smart enough to understand all of this, let me explain it to you for the low, low price of $49.95. It's advertising, plain and simple. Something that it appears he has paid for the right to do. Unfortunately a lot of people believe the "special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun" approach.
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can see precisely why people get annoyed with it. It's no different than having a TV show interrupted by a commercial (if TV is your thing.) Nice thing is, you can turn it off. For those of us that have, it's kinda like commercials during the super bowl, you still get caught up talking about it occasionally.


Right. So why not sell yourself by being the best you can be instead of manipulation through lies and word play?


----------



## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Quality post above. But with all due respect, referencing the quoted portion, that's not what he said. He said in the title; "Biomechanics.....special sauce" then in the body of his OP he tended to try to explain something in a somewhat cryptic manner that would indicate to the reader; you aren't smart enough to understand all of this, let me explain it to you for the low, low price of $49.95. It's advertising, plain and simple. Something that it appears he has paid for the right to do. Unfortunately a lot of people believe the "special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun" approach.
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight. But I can see precisely why people get annoyed with it. It's no different than having a TV show interrupted by a commercial (if TV is your thing.) Nice thing is, you can turn it off. For those of us that have, it's kinda like commercials during the super bowl, you still get caught up talking about it occasionally.


I don't even have issues with the sales pitch. I do take issue with the lantern and pitchfork routine that follows if someone disagrees. As said above, standing up straight is remedial knowledge, not some recent discovery.


----------



## ron w

the guy has helped more people on this forum than any individual except maybe "Griv"......and he gave up because of all the ridicule and bantering he got from saying things that go against the ignorant consensus of the forum's membership. any time someone goes against this and posts something that the majority simply cannot grasp, the ridicule and bantering comes out.
YOU ALL NEED TO GROW UP.


----------



## miko0618

cbrunson said:


> I don't even have issues with the sales pitch. I do take issue with the lantern and pitchfork routine that follows if someone disagrees. As said above, standing up straight is remedial knowledge, not some recent discovery.


I do have a problem with it. Some people cant just keep paying for coaches until they find a good one. Alan might be their only shot at being taught properly. He owes it to the folks that pay his mortage to be the best he can be.


----------



## miko0618

ron w said:


> the guy has helped more people on this forum than any individual except maybe "Griv"......and he gave up because of all the ridicule and bantering he got from saying things that go against the ignorant consensus of the forum's membership. any time someone goes against this and posts something that the majority simply cannot grasp, the ridicule and bantering comes out.
> YOU ALL NEED TO GROW UP.


By grow up you mean lay back and watch something wrong happen to people? Growing up means disreguarding poor information? Growing up means dont question?


----------



## miko0618

ron w said:


> the guy has helped more people on this forum than any individual except maybe "Griv"......and he gave up because of all the ridicule and bantering he got from saying things that go against the ignorant consensus of the forum's membership. any time someone goes against this and posts something that the majority simply cannot grasp, the ridicule and bantering comes out.
> YOU ALL NEED TO GROW UP.


I think you need to come down from your perch. Nobody grasps what you say because it doesnt add up. You go way off into b.s land. N & B atleast stays close to the line, on either side, so not to alert people.


----------



## cbrunson

miko0618 said:


> I do have a problem with it. Some people cant just keep paying for coaches until they find a good one. Alan might be their only shot at being taught properly. He owes it to the folks that pay his mortage to be the best he can be.


Valid point.


----------



## nuts&bolts

One more time, folks.

If an average JOE, is having troubles
with the bow shoulder rising up.

IF an AVERAGE joe, is having troubles 
with holding low...

indoor spots,
level ground,
level arrow,
aiming at the TOP ROW....

this is ONE situation,
a specific problem...

the "holding low" may NOT be target panic..MAYBE...

so,
this is a solution, that worked for several folks.


*Some folks though I was referring to a twisting of the torso.
Not my intention.

a sideways movement of the hips
in the opposite direction to arrow flight path.*

*Not my intent to make the collar bones go out of parallel to the ground.
This is a level shot,
where the shooter is aiming at an x-ring at the shooter's shoulder height.*

So,
I am instructing my students (at least two who had collapsing bow shoulder issues)
to maintain *target lock on the x-ring at SHOULDER HEIGHT.*

*Bow arm and arrow maintain a horizontal orientation.*
(not talking unit aiming...not talking field archery...level ground, indoors, top row of 5-spot or vegas face...level arrow...level bow arm)
before and after hip shift.
hip shift is a SET position, something you do, BEFORE you pull back the bowstring...this NEW set position, is maintained throughout the draw cycle

So,
when you SET your NEW hip stationary position,
in relation to your ankles,
this new STARTING position for your hips, 
say 1/2-inch CLOSER to your right ankle (if a RH shooter)

then,
you get your hip in this new position, CLOSER to your right ankle,
by a LITTLE BIT, and you KEEP this hip position rock solid, stationary,
when you pull back the bowstring...NO twisting...butt cheeks are not moving in front or behind you,
the RIGHT butt cheek is maybe 1/2 inch SIDEWAYS closer to your RIGHT ANKLE
the RIGHT butt cheek is maybe 3/4-inch SIDEWAYS closer to your RIGHT ANKLE

with this NEW address position (golf-speak)
keep your lower body STATIONARY
hips NOT centered between your ankles
RIGHT BUTT CHEEK a wee bit closer to the RIGHT ANKLE (a sideways move for the lower body opposite to arrow flight path)

MIGHT help some folks
with a collapsing bow shoulder (left shoulder pops up, for a right hand shooter)

this NON-centered hips position between the ankles,
RIGHT BUTT CHEEK a wee bit closer to RIGHT ankle

this STATIONARY ZERO-TWIST position,
MIGHT help SOME folks who are having difficulties holding LOW on a top row target
(x-ring set at YOUR shoulder height)

so,
since the shooter is aiming at a shoulder height x-ring
(standard height for training...cuz a LEVEL shot is the easiest shot to train)

this MOVING the RIGHT BUTT CHEEK a tiny bit CLOSER SIDEWAYS to the RIGHT ANKLE
AND
at the same time,
keeping the bow arm LEVEL
keeping the arrow DEAD LEVEL
maintaining target lock on the shoulder height x-ring

what happens
is that the two collar bones MAINTAIN LEVEL
but...

when the RIGHT BUTT CHEEK moves 1/2-inch SIDEWAYS a bit closer to the RIGHT ANKLE

then,
if you maintain LEVEL collar bones
cuz
you are aiming at an x-ring set at YOUR exact shoulder height....

then,
your two collar bones,
your head,
the middle of your neck,
your two arm pits
move SIDEWAYS, 
90 degrees to the shooting line
1/2-inch CLOSER to the target...

your two collar bones,
your head,
the middle of your neck,
your two arm pits,
moves in the direction of the arrow flight path,
a SIDEWAYS move...

NO change to your "core body tension"
you can shoot TIGHT core body tension if you like
you can shoot RELAXED core body tension if you like...what-ever floats your boat.

This is a simple change in SET position,
a movement of the right BUTT CHEEK closer to the RIGHT ankle
a 90 degrees sideways move for the lower body,
away from the shooting line...

which results
in an upper body in-voluntary movement
a sideways movement
of the two arm pits, the two shoulders, the two collar bones, your head, the middle of your neck
a movement 90 degrees to the shooting line,
a small sideways movement
maybe 1/2-inch
maybe 1/4-inch
maybe 3/4-inch
of the upper body in the direction of the arrow flight path,
90 degrees to the shooting line...

but,
the critical thing is the shooter stays locked onto the x-ring at shoulder height.

So,
the BACKBONE
is created a S-CURVE...
cuz the two hip joints are still level..

cuz the two collar bones are also STILL LEVEL,
cuz the shooter is locked onto an x-ring at SHOULDER HEIGHT,
and the arrow is still level.

*Soooo,
this little "special sauce" recipe,
which is provided in its ENTIRETY...*

*MAY* help somebody in the future,
who has a bit of trouble
holding low,
when shooting spots,
indoors,
on level ground,
aiming at the top row of targets.

There is the entire "special sauce" recipe.

Your Mileage May Vary.

IF you looked at an x-ray,
you would see LEVEL hip joints
and
you would see LEVEL collar bones,
and the backbone would bend into a S-CURVE..a left-right S-CURVE.

Holding low is NOT always "target panic"....is my message.

SOMETIMES,
it could be a simple structural issue.

That's all folks.


----------



## Rolo

Hey...anyone remember back to the discussion of what the intent of the "Target Forum" was? Remember all those predictions of what would happen if someone posted something that may be inaccurate? If someone posted something that was just plain "wrong" or attempted to be explained in such a way that was confusing, or nutt'n new? Anyone remember the 'fears' of an unrestricted forum? What would happen if anyone were allowed to post? What would / wouldn't happen if there were an attempt to rationally discuss an issue, and what would / wouldn't happen if people failed to respond?

Bueller...Bueller....

Whether N&B has or ahs not helped people is not the issue. Personally, I think he has helped a number of people generally. But when it comes to specifics, and beyond basic help, I ain't really seeing anything different than what a number of other people have said many moons ago, and continue to say today. I also ain't seeing near the level of coaching and advice that I have received from coaches who are truly recognized as coaches, and who have truly coached a number of world class archers. As far as those coaches are concerned, and in my actual experience with them, the big difference I see is that while they broadly coach on the various topics, they do not apply a "cookie-cutter" approach to everyone.

So, IMO, and no offense to anyone, I agree that N&B supplies a lot of basic information and guidance to a lot of generally inexperienced people. However, I don't see on AT a whole lot of advanced, and truly new, concepts that are being shared by him, nor do I see an application of most of his concepts to the advanced level shooter, and what one's I have seen, are neither new or novel. There's others who have posted in this thread, that personally, I don't think they have a clue what they are talking about, and at best, regurgitate what they have heard or read, or apply their own spin on things only in an attempt to make themselves look right toi the person they think they agree with, all the while not understanding what it is that the person they agree with said...

So, can we get the Target Forum back to what it was hoped it would be, or should we just fold it back into the Gen Pop, as many, including myself, predicted it would turn into if left to the masses?


----------



## SonnyThomas

nuts&bolts said:


> Biomechanics
> 
> Ankle bone connected to the leg bone connected to the knee bone connected to a ball
> and socket hip joint connected to the hip girdle connected to your lumbar region (low back).
> 
> This is where the action is.
> 
> It all starts from the legs.
> 
> Specifically. ...a PRETEND STICKER on your T-Shirt
> directly in front of your belly button.
> 
> Experiment with a controlled lateral....sideways....horizontal movement
> sideways shift
> with this stationary position of this PRETEND STICKER on your t-shirt
> in front of your belly button.
> 
> Move this sticker half an inch sideways
> towards your rear ankle.
> 
> Keep this new position stationary throughout your shot.
> 
> Learn how this PRETEND STICKER on your T-shirt affects your x-count....
> 
> This can have a MASSIVE effect for some shooters.
> 
> Biomechanics.
> 
> Nuff said.


And out of the sky blue comes..... What led to this Post? There was no question, no one asking.... Sort of goes against why this Forum was started....

But, down the line came "mile" explanation and for what? Calm down those wound up? How about a Mod stepping in and removing the whole thing?


----------



## cbrunson

@ Rolo

I don’t think anyone expected it to stay completely immune to transgression. However you can see how well the restricted section is going. I believe there is and will be some good info here. Despite the sales pitches and arguments. 

I think things got confusing when simple “stand up straight and keep your shoulder down” became a riddle.


----------



## miko0618

I can tell you that if an archer is hanging up low and changes nothing on his setup, this will make it worse. Normally the bow arm issues come from a bow that is too heavy or too long. Your body leans back to relieve the stress. Leaning forward would add weight to the bow arm shoulder. For this to be a solution, the must be a change elsewhere. 

What i see is nuts and bolts refined his "try it and see" because he doesnt know to heres what i think i learned from AT.


----------



## mmiles1

I see this thread working exactly as the target forum was supposed to with the exception of one poster derailing the entire thing. NB says target shooters should experiment with shifting their hips and weight. Other contributors chime in that they disagree, not necessarily everybody should, but if you don't know for a fact that your hips are in the correct spot, yes experiment. Some ask for clarification. Ron comes in with "how the h do you get that he said anything about hips shifting from what he said?" and "that's not what NB meant" and suggests other posters work on reading comprehension. Some others jump in with "yeah why are these big insecure meanies picking on NB by questioning what he says?" NB comes back and clarifies, yes that's exactly what he meant, average joes should experiment with shifting their hips, finding a new hip position, moving buttcheek towards feet (I tried, I can't do it without shifting my hips). So, with the exception of Ron's derailment and crawfishing to explain what NB REALLY meant and others jumping on board, I think this thread served it's purpose.


----------



## Kstigall

N&B is a sponsor he can "sell" whatever he wants wherever he wants on AT. Buyers please remember you are buying a product that is being _marketed_.....in a fairly unique way.


----------



## cbrunson

As long as it shifts in a linear plane perpendicular to the tangent of your spine curvature and you don’t spill the secret sauce on the floor while doing it, your shoulder should fall into a level position that will produce bionic repeatability. 

Sorry. I’m done. I promise. :grin:


----------



## miko0618

cbrunson said:


> As long as it shifts
> in a linear plane
> 
> 
> perpendicular to the tangent
> of your spine curvature
> 
> and you don’t spill the secret sauce on the floor while doing it
> 
> your shoulder should fall into a level position that will produce
> 
> 
> bionic repeatability.
> 
> Sorry. I’m done. I promise. :grin:


I fixed it for you


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

miko0618 said:


> I fixed it for you


Was that really necessary?


----------



## miko0618

tmorelli said:


> I know Ron will be disappointed that I once again posted without using big words and making this simple sport harder than it has to be.


Axis 3.75


----------



## miko0618

NoDeerInIowa said:


> Was that really necessary?


It helps it kitchen sink in. It was desrcibed as a way for a genius to dumb it down for the rest of us. I was helping the above genius dumb it down.


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

miko0618 said:


> It helps it kitchen sink in. It was desrcibed as a way for a genius to dumb it down for the rest of us. I was helping the above genius dumb it down.


No. What you did was make yourself out to look like an ass.


----------



## miko0618

tmorelli said:


> Let's simplify. The bow shoulder matters. Lower is better. Hips "forward" prohibits this. Balance matters.
> 
> No smoke. No mirrors. No extra words.
> 
> Get your bow shoulder down.


Once he learns this from us, we'll get yet another refined "total" secret sauce out of him.


----------



## miko0618

NoDeerInIowa said:


> No. What you did was make yourself out to look like an ass.


Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I think this will help me be a better person.


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

You're very welcome. 😉


----------



## cbrunson

miko0618 said:


> It helps it kitchen sink in. It was desrcibed as a way for a genius to dumb it down for the rest of us. I was helping the above genius dumb it down.


Much appreciated. I forgot to dumb it down.


----------



## cc46

Wow, think I just read more than half of these posts and still can't figure out the salient points of this thread. Is this just drivel? And N&B sorry bud can't understand the essence of your posts...is this a compound thingy??? Bio mechanics seems to me to suggest recurve shooting. And secret sauce...haha, what a catch phrase. 

Sorry again I'll go away now, no value to me here.


----------



## nuts&bolts

cc46 said:


> Wow, think I just read more than half of these posts and still can't figure out the salient points of this thread. Is this just drivel? And N&B sorry bud can't understand the essence of your posts...is this a compound thingy??? Bio mechanics seems to me to suggest recurve shooting. And secret sauce...haha, what a catch phrase.
> 
> Sorry again I'll go away now, no value to me here.


Works for compound and recurve.

RH recurve shooter.
LEFT shoulder popping up, when at full draw.
Draw was unstable.
Mostly the left shoulder.

Fixed it.
Had the RECURVE shooter move his belt buckle 1/2 inch to 3/4inch
towards his right ankle,
movement 90 degrees to the shooting line.

This resulted
in a much more stable left shoulder,
for the RECURVE shooter..
FORMERLY collapsed bow side shoulder (left shoulder)
dropped down nicely.

This is not leaning over a railing,
there is no upper body rotation,
like in a tree stand,

for this RECURVE shooter,
who was locked onto target,
at a shoulder height x-ring,
arrow stayed level,
two collar bones stayed level,
while at full draw...

so,
by having this RECURVE shooter shift his right BUTT cheek
sideways towards his right ankle,
in a movement 90 degrees to the shooting line..

and
maintaining the two collar bones LEVEL,
keeping the arrow LEVEL
and still aiming at a shoulder height x-ring,

this BUTT cheek move
towards the right ankle,
small movement

fixed a collapsing bow shoulder
for a RIGHT handed recurve shooter,

and
for several RIGHT handed compound shooters.

IGNORE the drivel.


----------



## va MTN MAN

I would like to publicly thank Alan (Nuts and Bolts) for his thought provoking threads. I haven't always agreed with everything Alan posts which I have expressed on some threads but because he posts these threads even with the bickering things can be learned. I think if the threads weren't so hotly debated some people that know a lot would not respond. I have noticed a lot more good info from tmoreli, big country and others that werent starting as many threads before. I also think it is a shame that some follow blindly and make no effort to test his theory's themself but attack anyone that questions him. Even though much of what he says has been said before by many, by him posting here and the controversy it causes brings it back to the fore front. That being said here is why I am thanking him.I am 55 years old and have been shooting field archery for 37 or so years and 3/d since the inception. I have had a fair amount of success but you would not call me an elite shooter.I used to be a 50 to 53 spot shooter but lately I have been a solid 300 5 spot shooter with an average x count of 48 to 50 on a good day. For the last so many years I have fought a tendency to struggle keeping the pin up and fighting a bob up and down. I have tried everything from changing all kinds of weights to different bows and draw lengths to rubbing Viagra on my left arm to keep it up lol. Some things helped but I was still always mostly missing low or pushing it high because of the low holding. SOOOO today I went out and tried pushing my belly button to the target after drawing the bow before setting up and low and behold my aiming was alot steadier without the dreaded bob and after reseting the pin I continued to shoot my personal best of a 300 with 56 solid spots and in the wind to boot. I have taken pictures and videos of myself and I cant see that I was leaning forward but it made a HUGE difference for me. also lately while shooting some times I would get a soreness in my lower back right side which I would have thought would be caused by leaning back but after shifting my belly button foward it didnt get sore today. I am sure that I could have found the info somewhere else but I would not have been looking for it if wasn't for following this thread and the mudslinging. SO for that, Thank You Alan.


----------



## nuts&bolts

va MTN MAN said:


> I would like to publicly thank Alan (Nuts and Bolts) for his thought provoking threads. I haven't always agreed with everything Alan posts which I have expressed on some threads but because he posts these threads even with the bickering things can be learned. I think if the threads weren't so hotly debated some people that know a lot would not respond. I have noticed a lot more good info from tmoreli, big country and others that werent starting as many threads before. I also think it is a shame that some follow blindly and make no effort to test his theory's themself but attack anyone that questions him. Even though much of what he says has been said before by many, by him posting here and the controversy it causes brings it back to the fore front. That being said here is why I am thanking him.I am 55 years old and have been shooting field archery for 37 or so years and 3/d since the inception. I have had a fair amount of success but you would not call me an elite shooter.I used to be a 50 to 53 spot shooter but lately I have been a solid 300 5 spot shooter with an average x count of 48 to 50 on a good day. For the last so many years I have fought a tendency to struggle keeping the pin up and fighting a bob up and down. I have tried everything from changing all kinds of weights to different bows and draw lengths to rubbing Viagra on my left arm to keep it up lol. Some things helped but I was still always mostly missing low or pushing it high because of the low holding. SOOOO today I went out and tried pushing my belly button to the target after drawing the bow before setting up and low and behold my aiming was alot steadier without the dreaded bob and after reseting the pin I continued to shoot my personal best of a 300 with 56 solid spots and in the wind to boot. I have taken pictures and videos of myself and I cant see that I was leaning forward but it made a HUGE difference for me. also lately while shooting some times I would get a soreness in my lower back right side which I would have thought would be caused by leaning back but after shifting my belly button foward it didnt get sore today. I am sure that I could have found the info somewhere else but I would not have been looking for it it wasn't for following this thread and the mudslinging. SO for that, Thank You Alan.


Welcome sir.

The low back pain..on one side.
Do not ignore that.

I have one shooter, right handed,
low back pain/soreness...stiffness,
and what YOU just did...

is very similar to what I suggested he try.


----------



## tmorelli

Va mtn man, 

Belly button..... Towards the target?.... So hips went forward?....that would indicate a lean back....

Help me understand please.


----------



## miko0618

tmorelli said:


> Va mtn man,
> 
> Belly button..... Towards the target?.... So hips went forward?....that would indicate a lean back....
> 
> Help me understand please.


He was leaning forward too much?


----------



## tmorelli

miko0618 said:


> He was leaning forward too much?


Don't know. That would be unusual.


----------



## miko0618

Not if you are repeatedly told to shorten your draw inches.


----------



## va MTN MAN

Hey T after reading some of the symtoms that some of you speak of with a low bow shoulder pushing the pin down it seamed like what i have been fighting and after thinking about it and analyzing my form pictures I didnt think lowering my release hand and or raising my peep would be an easy try so I shifted my midsection slightly toward the target which would equate to leaning back I would guess. From the pictures it doesnt look like I was leaning foward before and it doesnt really look like I am leaning back now. I probably only am moving my belly button a inch to inch and a half but I shifted a little more weight to my back foot. I cant really explain the feeling but It made a HUGE difference. It remains to be seen if it will carry through on the range with up and down but I sure hope so. I have shot with a lot of great shooters over the years and many have offered advise but no one ever told me it looked like I was leaning foward or back or that my bow shoulder looked low. At this point I dont know if what it did is just particular to me or not.


----------



## va MTN MAN

miko0618 said:


> Not if you are repeatedly told to shorten your draw inches.


Sorry guys I type s l o w
If anything most would tell me my draw is a little long.


----------



## Rolo

N&B your introduction of the 'S' curve concept has me totally befuddled, at least as I understand what you are saying.

In short, what I understand you are suggesting is that potentially to fix a holding or dipping low problem, one solution is to shift your hips laterally, away from the target, forming an 'S' curve of the spine. Essentially your shoulders would be no longer centered over a person's legs and hips. This will help promote a low shoulder, but allow the person to keep the bow up...when shooting on level ground at a target that is level with the person's shoulders, that have maintained their levelness when the hips were shifted away from the target. Is this correct?

Biomechanically speaking, makes perfect sense. A really well known, and really good shooter on level ground does something similar. Though his explanation, paraphrasing is: it (reward shifted shoulders) helps me hold my bow up and remain steady. He generally adopted this position from watching the body position of target firearm shooters. Another very good shooter (I think he is still the only one or 2 to shoot 2 30x games in a single Vegas tournament) has similar form....shoulders shifted back.

But, both of these people's games suffer, and neither is "as good" when the game requires shooting up or down hill. The shoulder shifting creates problems for them when not shooting on the level. 

Another area of confusion is that other than practice, shooting at an X that is level with the shoulder is impractical at best. Unless a person shoots a single spot target, it is impossible to shoot more than 1/2 a round with an X shoulder level. At best, a person may be able to shoot 1/3 (or 10 arrows out of 30) of a Vegas game at an X that is shoulder level. For an NFAA 5 spot, the number dwindles to 1/5, or 12 arrows out of 60.

This also assumes that the target bales even make this practical. Generally they don't.

So...
We are left with a potential fix
to a problem that can be addressed other ways
that will not cause problems with other archery games
that at most will only help on 33% of the shots being made
because the remaining shots will not be shoulder level.

This of course assumes that the person is shooting a multi face target. If they are shooting a single spot, and expect to score well, they got a host of other issues well beyond a low bow shoulder.

Again, this assumes I am reading the 'S' curve posting correctly.

Personally, I'd rather shoot the majority of my shots, well actually all of them, with the best form posture possible. I'd also like that form posture to be transferable from the level games to the games that are not level, and also into hunting applications. Being able to shoot no more than 33% of my shots with an 'S' curve at shoulder level Xs to assist in keeping my shoulder low, and my bow up, helps me well less than 33% of the time. I cannot see varying the form based on the angle to the intended target.

Now here's some really big confusion on my part...

What happens to the shirt buttons and all the lines on pictures when the hips are shifted back, and the 'S' curve is formed? Absent a really poorly fitting shirt, the buttons will also shift backward, no? If the buttons shift backward, then the line fro the floor through the waist, the belly button and adam's apple, can no longer be a straight line, no? The line cannot even be straight at all, with the introduction of the 'S' curve, no?

So...
We now have posture advice introducing a curve to the posture
that directly contradicts previous advice
you have provided
about the necessity of the buttons to be straight
and a straight line extending from the floor
through the belt buckle
and the belly button
and the adam's apple
onward and upward.

So...
we are also left with
the impression
based on previous pictures with lines
and statements about the meanings of the lines
that a person with an 'S' curve in their upper body
is a sign
that their draw length is too long
and the advice is to
shorten the DL
which naturally and biomechanically causes
the upper body and shoulders
to become centered over the hips and feet
thereby eliminating the 'S' curve
that is now being suggested
as a fix to other issues.

This is the root of the confusion.

Seems to me that centering the hips over the feet, and the shoulders over them, while keeping the bow shoulder low, is the best way to establish repeatable form for all archery games, which may actually benefit the average JOE the most.

Finding other fixes for JOE that do not require the implementation of an 'S' curve for shooting shoulder level targets would appear to me to be the better way to go, since it is much more practical to everything. It also avoids confusion with straight lines.

I agree with Tmorelli and others, shifting the hips away from center is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea regardless of which direction the hips go, but do understand how shifting them back could be a benefit to keeping the bow up when shooting targets that are level with the shoulders. Not sure that solution is the best for shooting the vast majority of targets that JOE or Pro, or anyone in between will encounter. Hell, even if the compete 1/2 round of indoor in the top position is considered level with the shoulders, it is still less than 1/2 the shots that 99.9% of archers out there will be faced with.

Well actually...I am sure.


----------



## miko0618

Rolo said:


> N&B your introduction of the 'S' curve concept has me totally befuddled, at least as I understand what you are saying.
> 
> In short, what I understand you are suggesting is that potentially to fix a holding or dipping low problem, one solution is to shift your hips laterally, away from the target, forming an 'S' curve of the spine. Essentially your shoulders would be no longer centered over a person's legs and hips. This will help promote a low shoulder, but allow the person to keep the bow up...when shooting on level ground at a target that is level with the person's shoulders, that have maintained their levelness when the hips were shifted away from the target. Is this correct?
> 
> Biomechanically speaking, makes perfect sense. A really well known, and really good shooter on level ground does something similar. Though his explanation, paraphrasing is: it (reward shifted shoulders) helps me hold my bow up and remain steady. He generally adopted this position from watching the body position of target firearm shooters. Another very good shooter (I think he is still the only one or 2 to shoot 2 30x games in a single Vegas tournament) has similar form....shoulders shifted back.
> 
> But, both of these people's games suffer, and neither is "as good" when the game requires shooting up or down hill. The shoulder shifting creates problems for them when not shooting on the level.
> 
> Another area of confusion is that other than practice, shooting at an X that is level with the shoulder is impractical at best. Unless a person shoots a single spot target, it is impossible to shoot more than 1/2 a round with an X shoulder level. At best, a person may be able to shoot 1/3 (or 10 arrows out of 30) of a Vegas game at an X that is shoulder level. For an NFAA 5 spot, the number dwindles to 1/5, or 12 arrows out of 60.
> 
> This also assumes that the target bales even make this practical. Generally they don't.
> 
> So...
> We are left with a potential fix
> to a problem that can be addressed other ways
> that will not cause problems with other archery games
> that at most will only help on 33% of the shots being made
> because the remaining shots will not be shoulder level.
> 
> This of course assumes that the person is shooting a multi face target. If they are shooting a single spot, and expect to score well, they got a host of other issues well beyond a low bow shoulder.
> 
> Again, this assumes I am reading the 'S' curve posting correctly.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather shoot the majority of my shots, well actually all of them, with the best form posture possible. I'd also like that form posture to be transferable from the level games to the games that are not level, and also into hunting applications. Being able to shoot no more than 33% of my shots with an 'S' curve at shoulder level Xs to assist in keeping my shoulder low, and my bow up, helps me well less than 33% of the time. I cannot see varying the form based on the angle to the intended target.
> 
> Now here's some really big confusion on my part...
> 
> What happens to the shirt buttons and all the lines on pictures when the hips are shifted back, and the 'S' curve is formed? Absent a really poorly fitting shirt, the buttons will also shift backward, no? If the buttons shift backward, then the line fro the floor through the waist, the belly button and adam's apple, can no longer be a straight line, no? The line cannot even be straight at all, with the introduction of the 'S' curve, no?
> 
> So...
> We now have posture advice introducing a curve to the posture
> that directly contradicts previous advice
> you have provided
> about the necessity of the buttons to be straight
> and a straight line extending from the floor
> through the belt buckle
> and the belly button
> and the adam's apple
> onward and upward.
> 
> So...
> we are also left with
> the impression
> based on previous pictures with lines
> and statements about the meanings of the lines
> that a person with an 'S' curve in their upper body
> is a sign
> that their draw length is too long
> and the advice is to
> shorten the DL
> which naturally and biomechanically causes
> the upper body and shoulders
> to become centered over the hips and feet
> thereby eliminating the 'S' curve
> that is now being suggested
> as a fix to other issues.
> 
> This is the root of the confusion.
> 
> Seems to me that centering the hips over the feet, and the shoulders over them, while keeping the bow shoulder low, is the best way to establish repeatable form for all archery games, which may actually benefit the average JOE the most.
> 
> Finding other fixes for JOE that do not require the implementation of an 'S' curve for shooting shoulder level targets would appear to me to be the better way to go, since it is much more practical to everything. It also avoids confusion with straight lines.
> 
> I agree with Tmorelli and others, shifting the hips away from center is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea regardless of which direction the hips go, but do understand how shifting them back could be a benefit to keeping the bow up when shooting targets that are level with the shoulders. Not sure that solution is the best for shooting the vast majority of targets that JOE or Pro, or anyone in between will encounter. Hell, even if the compete 1/2 round of indoor in the top position is considered level with the shoulders, it is still less than 1/2 the shots that 99.9% of archers out there will be faced with.
> 
> Well actually...I am sure.


Good luck getting an explanation to the contradiction from nuts and bolts. 

This is where ron comes in to speak for him and tell us how stupid we are.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Rolo said:


> N&B your introduction of the 'S' curve concept has me totally befuddled, at least as I understand what you are saying.
> 
> In short, what I understand you are suggesting is that potentially to fix a holding or dipping low problem, one solution is to shift your hips laterally, away from the target, forming an 'S' curve of the spine. Essentially your shoulders would be no longer centered over a person's legs and hips. This will help promote a low shoulder, but allow the person to keep the bow up...when shooting on level ground at a target that is level with the person's shoulders, that have maintained their levelness when the hips were shifted away from the target. Is this correct?
> 
> Biomechanically speaking, makes perfect sense. A really well known, and really good shooter on level ground does something similar. Though his explanation, paraphrasing is: it (reward shifted shoulders) helps me hold my bow up and remain steady. He generally adopted this position from watching the body position of target firearm shooters. Another very good shooter (I think he is still the only one or 2 to shoot 2 30x games in a single Vegas tournament) has similar form....shoulders shifted back.
> 
> But, both of these people's games suffer, and neither is "as good" when the game requires shooting up or down hill. The shoulder shifting creates problems for them when not shooting on the level.
> 
> Another area of confusion is that other than practice, shooting at an X that is level with the shoulder is impractical at best. Unless a person shoots a single spot target, it is impossible to shoot more than 1/2 a round with an X shoulder level. At best, a person may be able to shoot 1/3 (or 10 arrows out of 30) of a Vegas game at an X that is shoulder level. For an NFAA 5 spot, the number dwindles to 1/5, or 12 arrows out of 60.
> 
> This also assumes that the target bales even make this practical. Generally they don't.
> 
> So...
> We are left with a potential fix
> to a problem that can be addressed other ways
> that will not cause problems with other archery games
> that at most will only help on 33% of the shots being made
> because the remaining shots will not be shoulder level.
> 
> This of course assumes that the person is shooting a multi face target. If they are shooting a single spot, and expect to score well, they got a host of other issues well beyond a low bow shoulder.
> 
> Again, this assumes I am reading the 'S' curve posting correctly.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather shoot the majority of my shots, well actually all of them, with the best form posture possible. I'd also like that form posture to be transferable from the level games to the games that are not level, and also into hunting applications. Being able to shoot no more than 33% of my shots with an 'S' curve at shoulder level Xs to assist in keeping my shoulder low, and my bow up, helps me well less than 33% of the time. I cannot see varying the form based on the angle to the intended target.
> 
> Now here's some really big confusion on my part...
> 
> What happens to the shirt buttons and all the lines on pictures when the hips are shifted back, and the 'S' curve is formed? Absent a really poorly fitting shirt, the buttons will also shift backward, no? If the buttons shift backward, then the line fro the floor through the waist, the belly button and adam's apple, can no longer be a straight line, no? The line cannot even be straight at all, with the introduction of the 'S' curve, no?
> 
> So...
> We now have posture advice introducing a curve to the posture
> that directly contradicts previous advice
> you have provided
> about the necessity of the buttons to be straight
> and a straight line extending from the floor
> through the belt buckle
> and the belly button
> and the adam's apple
> onward and upward.
> 
> So...
> we are also left with
> the impression
> based on previous pictures with lines
> and statements about the meanings of the lines
> that a person with an 'S' curve in their upper body
> is a sign
> that their draw length is too long
> and the advice is to
> shorten the DL
> which naturally and biomechanically causes
> the upper body and shoulders
> to become centered over the hips and feet
> thereby eliminating the 'S' curve
> that is now being suggested
> as a fix to other issues.
> 
> This is the root of the confusion.
> 
> Seems to me that centering the hips over the feet, and the shoulders over them, while keeping the bow shoulder low, is the best way to establish repeatable form for all archery games, which may actually benefit the average JOE the most.
> 
> Finding other fixes for JOE that do not require the implementation of an 'S' curve for shooting shoulder level targets would appear to me to be the better way to go, since it is much more practical to everything. It also avoids confusion with straight lines.
> 
> I agree with Tmorelli and others, shifting the hips away from center is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea regardless of which direction the hips go, but do understand how shifting them back could be a benefit to keeping the bow up when shooting targets that are level with the shoulders. Not sure that solution is the best for shooting the vast majority of targets that JOE or Pro, or anyone in between will encounter. Hell, even if the compete 1/2 round of indoor in the top position is considered level with the shoulders, it is still less than 1/2 the shots that 99.9% of archers out there will be faced with.
> 
> Well actually...I am sure.


NUMBER 1...
no cookie cutter solutions, correct?

This was one case for a recurve shooter, with a collapsing bow shoulder.

This was another case for two compound shooters, on different sides of the hemisphere.
One east coast.
Another in Canberra, Australia.

This is me, reporting my findings,
for a SPECIAL situation,
and
the results even surprised myself.

The S curve is NOT FOR EVERYONE.

RIght?
NO COOOKIE cutter solutions.

So,
if someone has a holding low problem,
IF someone has tried all kinds of things, to fix the holding low problem...
then,
a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEK towards the right ankle (for a RH shooter)

worked for three folks.

End of story.

LEARN concepts...and not COOKIE cutter solutions.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooo,
va MTN MAN gets it.

He understands CONCEPTS.

He tried a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS,
in a 90 degrees direction to the shooting line,
and for HIM,
a right handed shooter, I am presuming,
for HIS individual case...

a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS towards his LEFT ankle,
provided relief for his aching erector spinae muscle, on the right side of the low lumbar region..


and

to quote...

*I probably only am moving my belly button a inch to inch and a half but I shifted a little more weight to my back foot. I cant really explain the feeling but It made a HUGE difference.*


----------



## va MTN MAN

After looking at pictures again and at my self in a mirror i believe i may have been leaning just a slight bit forward at the waist while setting my bow shoulder to begin the draw. Looking at the two different stances i may have actually straightened my back by pushing my waist forward slightly. Looking at my shoulders the height difference is small maybe left a half inch up and right a half inch down. .


----------



## nuts&bolts

So,
I see folks positing about rotation through the torso.

Nope.

So,
I see folks positing about aiming downhill,
NOPE,
not what I am talking about.

I am talking about a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS
in my three cases, a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS towards the right ankle,
for a right handed shooter,
while aiming at a shoulder height x-ring,
for a LEVEL shot,
so...

WHATEVER direction the arrow is pointing..
in my three test cases,
the arrow happened to be level....

cuz I start my archers on a LEVEL shot,
to build muscle memory for the core,

REMEMBER CONCEPTS

And
in this case,
I don't want the upper body LEANING over a railing...

I want a parallel shift of the two collar bones,
collar bones moving in a horizontal line, parallel to the floor
90 degrees to the shooting line...

and the hips, the two BUTT CHEEKS moving in a horizontal line, parallel to the floor,
small movement,
1/2-inch
or 3/4-inch..REMEMBER...CONCEPTS

towards the right ankle, for a RH shooter.

EVEN the direction of the lower body movement,
is a CONCEPTUAL one.

Ask va MTN MAN, to explain,
because va MTN MAN fully understands the CONCEPTS.


----------



## nuts&bolts

va MTN MAN said:


> After looking at pictures again and at my self in a mirror i believe i may have been leaning just a slight bit forward at the waist while setting my bow shoulder to begin the draw. Looking at the two different stances i may have actually straightened my back by pushing my waist forward slightly. Looking at my shoulders the height difference is small maybe left a half inch up and right a half inch down. .


You understand what I was trying to teach.

Apparently,
I am not able to communicate well enough,
but OBVIOUSLY,
you understand the CONCEPTS.

Please carry on,
describing the effects of what you have expertly executed.


----------



## nuts&bolts

The shooting at a dead shoulder height x-ring
is a training technique of mine.

Aiming at a typical top row of vegas target faces (height-wise)
aiming at a typical bottom row of vegas target faces (height-wise)

or 5 spot target faces will come later
in the training regimen.

Aiming at a shoulder height x-ring,
allows me to more easily diagnose
structural issues,
you know...

that bio-mechanical sauce stuff.


----------



## Lazarus

nuts&bolts said:


> This was another case for two compound shooters, on different sides of the hemisphere.
> One east coast.
> Another in Canberra, Australia.


Wouldn't someone on a "different side" of a hemisphere
from someone on the east
coast be someone in,

say china? 

SO
Wouldn't someone on the 
east coast and someone in 
Canberra, Australia be

in "different" hemispheres? 

Just needing clarification.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Lazarus said:


> Wouldn't someone on a "different side" of a hemisphere
> from someone on the east
> coast be someone in,
> 
> say china?
> 
> SO
> Wouldn't someone on the
> east coast and someone in
> Canberra, Australia be
> 
> in "different" hemispheres?
> 
> Just needing clarification.


Yup.

I stand corrected.

:darkbeer:

Another student of mine,
down under,
said he would be out trapping for the next six months.
Winter is coming.

I had to "think" about that.


----------



## TNMAN

va MTN MAN said:


> After looking at pictures again and at my self in a mirror i believe i may have been leaning just a slight bit forward at the waist while setting my bow shoulder to begin the draw. *Looking at the two different stances i may have actually straightened my back by pushing my waist forward slightly.* Looking at my shoulders the height difference is small maybe left a half inch up and right a half inch down. .


Now that makes sense.


----------



## TNMAN

nuts&bolts said:


> I am talking about a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS
> in my three cases, a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEKS towards the right ankle,
> for a right handed shooter,
> while aiming at a shoulder height x-ring,
> for a LEVEL shot,
> so...
> 
> ---and the hips, the two BUTT CHEEKS moving in a horizontal line, parallel to the floor,
> small movement,
> 1/2-inch
> or 3/4-inch.----


That'll get you arrested in all but two counties in Tennessee.


----------



## Joe Schnur

Alan
This does not work for me weakens my front end badly.

Given I am prone to be a bit on the Reo stance hips shifted forward from offhand rifle shooting. Having a hard time breaking it because it is weaker and requires the recruitment of muscles to stabilize as you move center aft. This will in the long term create more fatigue. I was under the understanding that we were striving for a neutral stance that did not require muscle tension to maintain the stance. Otherwise you burn glycogen and begin to shake or tremor late in the round. Fatigue sets in.

Just trying to understand. I did do the test did not work for me to move aft of vertical at all. 

I am with Mickey on this issue maybe I am just not understanding but as a engineer moving aft of 50/50 makes more muscles to hold the bow up and the body still. Sorry no kool aide for me thanks


----------



## Rolo

More confusion...much more...



nuts&bolts said:


> NUMBER 1...
> no cookie cutter solutions, correct?


Yes...but that doesn't explain the lines through the buckle, buttons and apple, which is always the same...



nuts&bolts said:


> This was one case for a recurve shooter, with a collapsing bow shoulder.
> 
> This was another case for two compound shooters, on different sides of the hemisphere.
> One east coast.
> Another in Canberra, Australia.
> 
> This is me, reporting my findings,
> for a SPECIAL situation,
> and
> the results even surprised myself.
> 
> The S curve is NOT FOR EVERYONE.


So...
We have a post
that answers a question
that no one asked
that deals with 2 very exceptional circumstances
one of which deals with a recurve shooter 
that a large majority of the people 
on this thread
and this forum
do not shoot
and 1 compound shooter
who lives in Australia
(I have no idea what the residence of each person has to do with this)
and 'special findings'
the long term success of which
remains unknown
which is not for everyone
because there is no cookie-cutter.

OK...I'm still confused...beginning with why answer a question that no one asked that only applies in 2 special situations...I'll get back to that.



nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> if someone has a holding low problem,
> IF someone has tried all kinds of things, to fix the holding low problem...
> then,
> a sideways shift of the BUTT CHEEK towards the right ankle (for a RH shooter)
> 
> worked for three folks.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> LEARN concepts...and not COOKIE cutter solutions.


So...
when did the third party 
try this concept
with success?

I thought there were only 2? Compound, Fita or traditional?

So...

As far as my other concerns with the 'S' curve
like shooting at anything not shoulder level
like shooting up/down hill
like the effects the 'S' curve will have
in anything but flat 
shoulder level shooting
and how this 'S' curve 
is contrary to the whole straight line thingy...

And WHY this was ever a post...

There are no answers?


----------



## miko0618

Rolo said:


> More confusion...much more...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...but that doesn't explain the lines through the buckle, buttons and apple, which is always the same...
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> We have a post
> that answers a question
> that no one asked
> that deals with 2 very exceptional circumstances
> one of which deals with a recurve shooter
> that a large majority of the people
> on this thread
> and this forum
> do not shoot
> and 1 compound shooter
> who lives in Australia
> (I have no idea what the residence of each person has to do with this)
> and 'special findings'
> the long term success of which
> remains unknown
> which is not for everyone
> because there is no cookie-cutter.
> 
> OK...I'm still confused...beginning with why answer a question that no one asked that only applies in 2 special situations...I'll get back to that.
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> when did the third party
> try this concept
> with success?
> 
> I thought there were only 2? Compound, Fita or traditional?
> 
> So...
> 
> As far as my other concerns with the 'S' curve
> like shooting at anything not shoulder level
> like shooting up/down hill
> like the effects the 'S' curve will have
> in anything but flat
> shoulder level shooting
> and how this 'S' curve
> is contrary to the whole straight line thingy...
> 
> And WHY this was ever a post...
> 
> There are no answers?


You will never get answers. I've been at it for a while now. 

One can only assume

If i train you to shoot on flat
Indoor
Level targets

With a method
That WILL fail 
Any other time

When you apply it outside
You will struggle
And have to pay me
To re-train you

Job security


----------



## nuts&bolts

rolo said:


> more confusion...much more...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...but that doesn't explain the lines through the buckle, buttons and apple, which is always the same...
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> We have a post
> that answers a question
> that no one asked
> that deals with 2 very exceptional circumstances
> one of which deals with a recurve shooter
> that a large majority of the people
> on this thread
> and this forum
> do not shoot
> and 1 compound shooter
> who lives in australia
> (i have no idea what the residence of each person has to do with this)
> and 'special findings'
> the long term success of which
> remains unknown
> which is not for everyone
> because there is no cookie-cutter.
> 
> Ok...i'm still confused...beginning with why answer a question that no one asked that only applies in 2 special situations...i'll get back to that.
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> When did the third party
> try this concept
> with success?
> 
> I thought there were only 2? Compound, fita or traditional?
> 
> So...
> 
> As far as my other concerns with the 's' curve
> like shooting at anything not shoulder level
> like shooting up/down hill
> like the effects the 's' curve will have
> in anything but flat
> shoulder level shooting
> and how this 's' curve
> is contrary to the whole straight line thingy...
> 
> And why this was ever a post...
> 
> There are no answers?


see
post
#110.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Rolo said:


> More confusion...much more...
> 
> 
> And WHY this was ever a post...
> 
> There are no answers?


I 
understand 
your
confusion.

So,
allow
me
to 
make
this
very
simple.

Post
#
110.

A
quote.

"I cant really explain the feeling but It made a HUGE difference."

The post benefited va MTN MAN.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Joe Schnur said:


> Alan
> This does not work for me weakens my front end badly.
> 
> Given I am prone to be a bit on the Reo stance hips shifted forward from offhand rifle shooting. Having a hard time breaking it because it is weaker and requires the recruitment of muscles to stabilize as you move center aft. This will in the long term create more fatigue. I was under the understanding that we were striving for a neutral stance that did not require muscle tension to maintain the stance. Otherwise you burn glycogen and begin to shake or tremor late in the round. Fatigue sets in.
> 
> Just trying to understand. I did do the test did not work for me to move aft of vertical at all.
> 
> I am with Mickey on this issue maybe I am just not understanding but as a engineer moving aft of 50/50 makes more muscles to hold the bow up and the body still. Sorry no kool aide for me thanks


The experiment does not work for you.

That is fine.

Bow side shoulder collapse may not be an issue you have.


----------



## miko0618

nuts&bolts said:


> I
> understand
> your
> confusion.
> 
> So,
> allow
> me
> to
> make
> this
> very
> simple.
> 
> Post
> #
> 110.
> 
> A
> quote.
> 
> "I cant really explain the feeling but It made a HUGE difference."
> 
> The post benefited va MTN MAN.


Was this arrogant?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Joe Schnur said:


> Alan
> This does not work for me weakens my front end badly.
> 
> Given I am prone to be a bit on the Reo stance hips shifted forward from offhand rifle shooting. Having a hard time breaking it because it is weaker and requires the recruitment of muscles to stabilize as you move center aft. This will in the long term create more fatigue. I was under the understanding that we were striving for a neutral stance that did not require muscle tension to maintain the stance. Otherwise you burn glycogen and begin to shake or tremor late in the round. Fatigue sets in.
> 
> Just trying to understand. I did do the test did not work for me to move aft of vertical at all.
> 
> I am with Mickey on this issue maybe I am just not understanding but as a engineer moving aft of 50/50 makes more muscles to hold the bow up and the body still. Sorry no kool aide for me thanks


Neutral stance,
GENERALLY speaking,
is the best starting point.

GENERALLY speaking.

Then,
you get into the specifics of individual cases.

Take va MTN MAN.
He mentioned low back stiffness/soreness, right side.
Presuming he is a right handed shooter.

The sideways shift helped va MTN MAN tremendously.

So,
holding low,
target panic? Maybe.

So,
holding low,
shooting tight groups, but
have difficulty hitting on target?

for va MTN MAN, the sideways shift towards the shooting line helped.

for a shooter, I am working with, the sideways shift away from the shooting line helped.

The commonality, is that the CHANGE in structural stability
for BOTH of these folks, was DRAMATIC, for BOTH of these folks.

So,
to spell it out plainly,
the core,
the mid-section,
the muscles supporting the sides of the backbone,
maybe something going on in the hips..

for some folks,
this post, this thread,
offers another thing to try.

Not all shooters are equally constructed...

bad hips,
bad hip one side
ankles, knees, legs (both sides or one side)
the reasons go on and on.

If a shooter,
has difficulty holding low,
the sideways shift might help..

if this sideways shift does help,
so far,
*the difference has been very dramatic.*

This most likely is due to an imbalance,
one sided,
in the core.


----------



## ArcherXXX300

montigre said:


> I think I might understand this a little better now. A similar effect might also be obtained by having a right-handed shooter open his/her outside foot laterally a few degrees (rotating it very slightly on the heel). This produces a nearly imperceptible shift in the body's balance without negatively altering the upper body form. I have found this technique very useful when shooting FITA games in a stiff cross wind--it made my feet feel like they are anchoring deeper into the ground, so there must have been a corresponding shift in my center of gravity rearward..... Interesting.


N&B and Montigre...are you referring to the placement of your feet being more like square stance or hieroglyphically speaking looking like this? UP is the toes down is the heels.
l l
or being more duck footed like I naturally am and walk \ /

Pigeon toed would be like this / \

My stance is more open and duck footed
_____ /
\

The gap is a bit excessive from the return key but you get it hieroglyphically speaking right?


----------



## nuts&bolts

ArcherXXX300 said:


> N&B and Montigre...are you referring to the placement of your feet being more like square stance or hieroglyphically speaking looking like this? UP is the toes down is the heels.
> l l
> or being more duck footed like I naturally am and walk \ /
> 
> Pigeon toed would be like this / \
> 
> My stance is more open and duck footed
> _____ /
> \
> 
> The gap is a bit excessive from the return key but you get it hieroglyphically speaking right?


Try everything,
and see what works best for you.

Try square stance,
feet parallel to the shooting line.

Try open stance,
both feet parallel to the shooting line.

Try your open stance,
(assuming your are right handed)
left foot parallel to the shooting line,
and
right foot rotated out to your right.

Since you are right handed,
I would want to keep the left hip joint,
solidly planted above the left ankle,
so I would avoid rotating the left foot outwards.

Want to keep the LEFT butt cheek directly above the left ankle.

Give it a whirl,
and keep notes
on what works best for you.


----------



## nuts&bolts

If the left butt cheek is allowed to swing behind your left ankle,
then,
this COULD cause a left miss.

Keeping the left butt cheek
above the left ankle,
during full draw
and during the follow through reaction,
can help to minimize the left misses.


----------



## Looney Bin

Well this topic degraded rather spectacularly. 

Like Tmorelli said the basic gist is stand up straight. However I have been utilizing a subtle hip shift towards my rear foot PRIOR to drawing for a good while. My stance is pretty square so when I hook my release and set my bow side shoulder my hips tends to naturally shift a bit forward. I shift my hips towards the rear a bit and proceed to draw. The end result is me standing up straight at anchor.

Without the rearward hip shift I end up leaning back a bit. Even with a proper DL. Which with a good amount of arrows tends to lead to stiffness in my lower left back and hip flexor.(FYI I shoot lefthanded)


----------



## Kstigall

Ricky, I know you had a tendency to bend or lean or hunch a bit into the bow at anchor. I bet now you are actually standing up straighter with your weight better balanced on your legs/feet. 

A few years ago I had lower back right side pain after shooting a dozen or so arrows. I had to change. It took me quite a while (about a year) to not occasionally go back to my old stance or "form". Still to this day I'll catch myself rocking back on occasion. So be diligent about staying with your new "form" because it's real easy to slip back into a "form" that we've used for decades.


----------



## montigre

ArcherXXX300 said:


> N&B and Montigre...are you referring to the placement of your feet being more like square stance or hieroglyphically speaking looking like this? UP is the toes down is the heels. l l
> or being more duck footed like I naturally am and walk \ /
> Pigeon toed would be like this / \
> My stance is more open and duck footed
> _____ /
> \
> 
> The gap is a bit excessive from the return key but you get it hieroglyphically speaking right?


I shoot with a similar stance to yours except not quite as open or duck footed--my left foot is usually parallel to the target. For my stance, when conditions begin to destabilize my stance (outdoors shooting on the level and in a crosswind), I have personally found that I can become more balanced by shifting my right toes outward (making them slightly more duck footed) a small amount. Otherwise, I always try to maintain my feet shoulder width apart and my weight placed evenly over my hips.

I have also used this when shooting a field target on a steeper downward slope where my leading foot was below my back foot a considerable amount. In this case, shifting my rear foot toes outward allowed my trailing foot to act like a claw and hold into the top of the hill better. Obviously, my COG was also shifted back to remain perpendicular to the slope of the hill.


----------



## Ned250

I think I may be one of the students that motivated the OP. I've been shooting since I was 7 (now 35). I had a penchant for leaning back a little. I am an OK shot; floating between 299-300/45 on the blue face. I've had some spikes in scoring lately. I'd shoot a 448 on vegas 450 and then shoot a 299/44 blue face a few days later. Alan looked at my shooting via video and had me try the hip shift to try and get a more solid/repeatable foundation. 

At first, it felt terrible and I shot horrendously. That's expected after making a change to something I've done for so long, but it was a big buzz kill mentally. After another video analysis with the new hip placement, we lengthened my DLoop 1/8" and presto... I was rock solid. Its a liberating feeling; I've never felt this good with the bow in my hand. I don't feel like I'm fighting my float any more. 

Changing the DLoop length does backup a point someone else made in this thread - the hip change may not be a stand alone fix. It's a fine balance of dominoes....

Sure I knew standing up straight was ideal, but I've shot this way for so long I felt comfortable. Seeing guys like Reo shoot like that just made it easier for me to ignore it. But, my widening variances in score suggested something wasn't consistent. I'm still early into this change, but the initial feel after 2 weeks is great.

Now if I can only figure out how to stop popping my bubble wrap suit when I come to anchor, I'll be a pro in no time flat.


----------



## tmorelli

Good stuff Ned. Glad to hear it....standing up straighter...stronger shoulder....better outcome.


----------



## Fury90flier

Popping the bubble wrap suit? I found an easy solution- pop those collar bubbles on the line before you shoot...helps you, distracts the other shooters (cuz they want to pop the bubble warp too). Every time you make a good shot- pop a bubble or two...all while saying "behold the power of ZOLTAN!"...then fart.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> Popping the bubble wrap suit? I found an easy solution- pop those collar bubbles on the line before you shoot...helps you, distracts the other shooters (cuz they want to pop the bubble warp too). Every time you make a good shot- pop a bubble or two...all while saying "behold the power of ZOLTAN!"...then fart.


That's just GREAT!

Hilarious.

REally test the mental focus,
for your competition.


----------



## Fury90flier

Yea, nothing like a little fart to send chuckles down the line.


----------



## Fury90flier

get this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bubble-Wrap...1073361084?pt=US_Costumes&hash=item1e8494c4bc

and this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robin-Hood-...pt=US_Costume_Accessories&hash=item2ece3dd54e

I should be good to go.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Ned250 said:


> I think I may be one of the students that motivated the OP. I've been shooting since I was 7 (now 35). I had a penchant for leaning back a little. I am an OK shot; floating between 299-300/45 on the blue face. I've had some spikes in scoring lately. I'd shoot a 448 on vegas 450 and then shoot a 299/44 blue face a few days later. Alan looked at my shooting via video and had me try the hip shift to try and get a more solid/repeatable foundation.
> 
> At first, it felt terrible and I shot horrendously. That's expected after making a change to something I've done for so long, but it was a big buzz kill mentally. After another video analysis with the new hip placement, we lengthened my DLoop 1/8" and presto... I was rock solid. Its a liberating feeling; I've never felt this good with the bow in my hand. I don't feel like I'm fighting my float any more.
> 
> Changing the DLoop length does backup a point someone else made in this thread - the hip change may not be a stand alone fix. It's a fine balance of dominoes....
> 
> Sure I knew standing up straight was ideal, but I've shot this way for so long I felt comfortable. Seeing guys like Reo shoot like that just made it easier for me to ignore it. But, my widening variances in score suggested something wasn't consistent. I'm still early into this change, but the initial feel after 2 weeks is great.
> 
> Now if I can only figure out how to stop popping my bubble wrap suit when I come to anchor, I'll be a pro in no time flat.





tmorelli said:


> Good stuff Ned. Glad to hear it....standing up straighter...stronger shoulder....better outcome.


Just went through this and noted it to tmorelli. I started to set up this bow and did so while my back was hurting. Over hurting and back to shooting I couldn't do anything right. I felt scrunched up and couldn't figure out why (death in the family not helping my brain). I did nothing but return to basics, square one, right where most advise to go, where you should go. One time standing straight as I should and the problem was found. The peep was too low. Moved the peep and everything felt right, drawn length, anchor and all. 

Like some in here have said, doing some shifting of the body parts, feet, might work for flat ground shooting, 20 yards or whatever, but what about 3D and Field? Down or up hill shooting. Nope... You hold to the "T" form and bend at the waist. Many times I've had one knee bent and one knee locked to stay upright, hold to form and I'm to shift my butt, hips or whatever? Ain't happening.... 

And like some in here, the Post came out of no where. What the heck for? I mean, if given a cause, a question, sure..... We'd probably have the same flack, but at least for a reason.....o


----------



## MonsterT85

Try the secret sauce on uneven ground tightened one but cheek shifted bellybutton and wala


----------



## miko0618

MonsterT85 said:


> Try the secret sauce on uneven ground tightened one but cheek shifted bellybutton and wala
> View attachment 1906519


Secret siding?


----------



## R1STEER

I'm a little slow(if you need proof check out how many times it took me to figure out how to imbed a video on the test thread), is this what is being discussed?


----------



## nuts&bolts

R1STEER said:


> I'm a little slow(if you need proof check out how many times it took me to figure out how to imbed a video on the test thread), is this what is being discussed?


Thank you.

Alistair says Hip.

I said, belly button, a sticker, and then finally RIGHT BUTT CHEEK (since I was referring to right handed shooters).
Same idea.

Alistair says FRONT shoulder popping up, popping out.
For the folks I was helping, the FRONT shoulder was popping up.

So,
Alistair demonstrates a much LARGER shift of the lower body away from the shooting line.

Helps to exaggerate stuff, so people GET IT.

This is what I was talking about...trying to.
Your mileage may vary.

*Alistair said for Indoor shooting, LEVEL ground.

I said for indoor spots, LEVEL ground.*


----------



## tmorelli

He prioritized the front shoulder position. Not the hip position. Not the CG. No s-curves required. The hips and CG were an element used to position and strengthen the shoulder. Nothing more.

Interesting.

There is a problem with the special sauce recipe. Imagine that. 

Shoulder low matters. Proper hip position allows it. Improper prevents it. Uphill, downhill, side hill, indoors, outdoors....doesn't matter. Low shoulder provides lift. High shoulder breaks down through the shot. 

No cryptic messages, no smoke, no mirrors, no marketing. Let's keep this game simple.


----------



## montigre

MonsterT85 said:


> Try the secret sauce on uneven ground tightened one but cheek shifted bellybutton and wala
> View attachment 1906519


Oof...LOL!! Going to be hard to explain that one!!!


----------



## Fury90flier

MonsterT85 said:


> Try the secret sauce on uneven ground tightened one but cheek shifted bellybutton and wala
> View attachment 1906519


hinge?


----------



## Joe Schnur

Now it makes sense


----------



## Joe Schnur

Interesting how an accepted expert with world class archers posted in his resume says the same thing as nuts and bolts in a video and everyone goes oh . And the bashing stops. Even makes more sense with the video. Now it is an exaggeration for illustrative purposes but no one can challenge Allisters credentials on this subject


----------



## Joe Schnur

Also I retract my previous confusion a this is what I was using to stop my reo like stance not all the way there yet but a work in progress


----------



## SonnyThomas

Joe Schnur said:


> Interesting how an accepted expert with world class archers posted in his resume says the same thing as nuts and bolts in a video and everyone goes oh . And the bashing stops. Even makes more sense with the video. Now it is an exaggeration for illustrative purposes but no one can challenge Allisters credentials on this subject


The basic stance comes first. Each person is a little different. If by Terry Wunderle, Braden Gel. has a stance adjusted for him and said not being all proper. I suspect each of us stand different, have something shifted. Back broke once, don't know how many discs slipped, two ruptured, "drop foot" from nerve damage, I'm more than likely adapted to taking all the pressure off my back as possible through standing just so, feet just so. I shoot the best when I know all my weight is down on both feet.


----------



## Reverend

tagged...


----------



## dua lam pa

Reverend said:


> tagged...


"getting over your shot " we discussed this


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

Lmao Ron


----------



## Padgett

I have been reading posts and threads from nuts and bolts for a long time and he is simply a form guy, everything he talks about is and will always be referenced to some form issue. This is his comfort zone and he has came up with a collection of tweaks to your form and bow to approach any of the popular things that shooters deal with, me personally I don't like doing this. I shoot with people who are like this locally and I love them to death but they blame everything on draw length or tiller or many of the things that nuts brings up and they never just learn how to shoot a bow with a good mental approach to getting the arrow to the target. You simply can't ignore the mental approach all of the time and just cram more and more bulk form and setup information down peoples throat.


----------



## possum trapper

sooooooooooo.........some of the best shooters in the world don't have "picture perfect"form so what is that all telling you guys?????? The mind is a powerful thing.

wonder why the same guys keep winning or near the top????? Why isn't there more 300's shot in vegas vs shooting back home????the mind is a powerful thing.

lets see every archery tourney and actually hunting situations you have to make good shots no doubt about it but lets look at this

hunting out of a treestand.....so why wouldn't you practice out of a treestand?

indoor archery is a head case game so why wouldn't you practice at least 50% mental imaging to better your game to improve your score?

3d is a game of yardage judging so why wouldn't you spend a lot of time judging yardage.I do believe a lot of missed 12 rings on a 3d course is from yardage and mentally making a bad shot.

lets see about field archery...well you better have it all if you wanna be good at this because it uses all aspects of everything in archery so you just cant work on 1 thing

outdoor target archery.mental game is needed and form does come into play at 60 yrds and futher but the mind can talk you into things and out of things so easy......

so what do the best archers in the world have in common????its not text book form....The mind is a powerful thing


----------



## dua lam pa

possum trapper said:


> sooooooooooo.........some of the best shooters in the world don't have "picture perfect"form so what is that all telling you guys?????? The mind is a powerful thing.
> 
> wonder why the same guys keep winning or near the top????? Why isn't there more 300's shot in vegas vs shooting back home????the mind is a powerful thing.
> 
> lets see every archery tourney and actually hunting situations you have to make good shots no doubt about it but lets look at this
> 
> hunting out of a treestand.....so why wouldn't you practice out of a treestand?
> 
> indoor archery is a head case game so why wouldn't you practice at least 50% mental imaging to better your game to improve your score?
> 
> 3d is a game of yardage judging so why wouldn't you spend a lot of time judging yardage.I do believe a lot of missed 12 rings on a 3d course is from yardage and mentally making a bad shot.
> 
> lets see about field archery...well you better have it all if you wanna be good at this because it uses all aspects of everything in archery so you just cant work on 1 thing
> 
> outdoor target archery.mental game is needed and form does come into play at 60 yrds and futher but the mind can talk you into things and out of things so easy......
> 
> so what do the best archers in the world have in common????its not text book form....The mind is a powerful thing



should be posted twice -
Very well put PT and perhaps what separates some from others. Throwings sticks is fun , mind games not so much. I also think that "prodigies " people who have been shooting since they could walk build up a sort of mental game over the years , pre shot ,and form , shot sequnce- this who aspect is no longer thought about - there is a "mental toughness " as well needed. 
Again PT - well put - something to put in the scrap book !


----------



## bigHUN

In my club (and the next one even more respected club is about an hour away) we have a combination of very dedicated high quality 3d-Field-FITA ranges, and from my club a decent number of Olympic and compound shooters reaching out to the international level in all these games. We never had some high end level coaches but definitely getting to the level wasn't just a DIY effort. 
So, I was watching them for years practicing every day and I can say briefly no common between two disciplines.....I am not talking about average Joes but really high performers.....
The Olympic boys and girls tend to move just very slightly forward with COG (including also longer carbon shafts) and the compound folks had a better results with a "T" stand. I trhroughly believe the 100% perfect DL doesn't


----------



## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> sooooooooooo.........some of the best shooters in the world don't have "picture perfect"form so what is that all telling you guys?????? The mind is a powerful thing.
> 
> wonder why the same guys keep winning or near the top????? Why isn't there more 300's shot in vegas vs shooting back home????the mind is a powerful thing.
> 
> lets see every archery tourney and actually hunting situations you have to make good shots no doubt about it but lets look at this
> 
> hunting out of a treestand.....so why wouldn't you practice out of a treestand?
> 
> indoor archery is a head case game so why wouldn't you practice at least 50% mental imaging to better your game to improve your score?
> 
> 3d is a game of yardage judging so why wouldn't you spend a lot of time judging yardage.I do believe a lot of missed 12 rings on a 3d course is from yardage and mentally making a bad shot.
> 
> lets see about field archery...well you better have it all if you wanna be good at this because it uses all aspects of everything in archery so you just cant work on 1 thing
> 
> outdoor target archery.mental game is needed and form does come into play at 60 yrds and futher but the mind can talk you into things and out of things so easy......
> 
> so what do the best archers in the world have in common????its not text book form....The mind is a powerful thing


Well, I'll post it again. I R a kind of don't remember a lot, but don't forget anything. Levi Morgan was interviewed by A.N.N, Archery News Now, gone these past 3 years. Levi stated; "I don't practice near as much as people think." So that leaves the mental game and judging yardage. 

Same interview. Levi noted he knocked down $72,000 in six weeks. (Damn memory cells). Very quickly his interview was removed and everyone else's remained.... How about that......


----------



## dua lam pa

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I'll post it again. I R a kind of don't remember a lot, but don't forget anything. Levi Morgan was interviewed by A.N.N, Archery News Now, gone these past 3 years. Levi stated; "I don't practice near as much as people think." So that leaves the mental game and judging yardage.
> 
> Same interview. Levi noted he knocked down $72,000 in six weeks. (Damn memory cells). Very quickly his interview was removed and everyone else's remained.... How about that......




Practicing the Mental game does not sell bows nor stabilizers.
A pro is there to "pro" mote the selling of products


----------



## bigHUN

bigHUN said:


> In my club (and the next one even more respected club is about an hour away) we have a combination of very dedicated high quality 3d-Field-FITA ranges, and from my club a decent number of Olympic and compound shooters reaching out to the international level in all these games. We never had some high end level coaches but definitely getting to the level wasn't just a DIY effort.
> So, I was watching them for years practicing every day and I can say briefly no common between two disciplines.....I am not talking about average Joes but really high performers.....
> The Olympic boys and girls tend to move just very slightly forward with COG (including also longer carbon shafts) and the compound folks had a better results with a "T" stand. I trhroughly believe the 100% perfect DL doesn't


the time expired and I could not finish my thoughts so repeating just with short note.....
Me 54 and not entirely proud with greasing shoulder and torso, but definitely a higher holding weight can do more benefit than any 100% leveled ground or straight/bent knees or 100% "T" form or hip/belly button location......anything above chest shall move freely and independently from below shoulders....


----------



## prozko

...


----------



## SonnyThomas

dua lam pa said:


> Practicing the Mental game does not sell bows nor stabilizers.
> A pro is there to "pro" mote the selling of products


Is that why Levi made something of $175,000 that year, just promoting products?


----------



## possum trapper

money makes the world go round but strong mental preparation and performances put arrows in the middle.....its your decision


----------



## possum trapper

as for products.Go buy what you believe in or what person(company)you respect that will give you confidence in the durability but true confidence which you can take to your treestand or the line in vegas comes from mental preparation during your practice session with yourself and with others around.just don't go shoot arrows to shoot.go shoot meaningful executed shots that will carry you a long ways to find your inner self when they announce "this end is for score".

This is why the best can go from company to company and have the same results because they don't worry about their results they worry about the things that matter to play the game.Good Luck all!


----------

