# Olympic Recurve frustration with left arrows



## acarney (Jan 20, 2006)

Are you using a sigtht and plunger? If so, I'm assuming that you adjusted the former. But what about your plunger?

When I first saw your post, I thought that I posted it, but forgot that I did. Though no where NEAR your level of skill, I'm running into the same problem ... as soon as I extend from 20 yds to 30 yds.


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## krfoss (Aug 25, 2006)

Sounds like you know your stuff (judging from your experience). However, left arrows sound like a spine issue; your arrows may be too stiff for your bow's weight. Here are a few things you could use:

You can find the coaches directory in PDF here. If you cant find one in your town, email someone on that list and they ought to direct you to the right person: 
http://www.usarchery.org/html/CoachesDirectoryUpdate.html

A quick summation (in some detail) of the BEST method: 
http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/

I hope this helps. 
-k


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

acarney said:


> Are you using a sigtht and plunger? If so, I'm assuming that you adjusted the former. But what about your plunger?
> 
> When I first saw your post, I thought that I posted it, but forgot that I did. Though no where NEAR your level of skill, I'm running into the same problem ... as soon as I extend from 20 yds to 30 yds.


Yes to both questions. I have a Beiter plunger and an ARE Adj. Free Tune rest. When I set up my bow I aligned my arrow just to the left of string, sight pin centered over arrow. I set my plunger to mid range and tuned my bow (?) by adjusting the limbs.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

Are you able to anchor under your chin as we do with the OR?
Are you left eye dominant? Also are you checking your string alignment along your aperature/pin or riser each time?


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Sounds like you are shooting right handed and occasionally aiming with your left eye. Block it off or close it and see if the problem disappears. this may happen more often when you tire.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Are you able to anchor under your chin as we do with the OR?
> Are you left eye dominant? Also are you checking your string alignment along your aperature/pin or riser each time?


No, I'm not left eye dominant. I try to put the blur of the string just to right of sight pin.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Are you able to anchor under your chin as we do with the OR?
> 
> Yes. BUT I don't have a permanent anchor. My frustrations have led me to try
> anchoring just to side of chin and placing string on tip of nose and side of nose. None of these combinations seem to help.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

At what distance are you missing the 52 inch target?


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

krfoss said:


> Sounds like you know your stuff (judging from your experience). However, left arrows sound like a spine issue; your arrows may be too stiff for your bow's weight. Here are a few things you could use:
> 
> You can find the coaches directory in PDF here. If you cant find one in your town, email someone on that list and they ought to direct you to the right person:
> http://www.usarchery.org/html/CoachesDirectoryUpdate.html
> ...


Archery Equipment

Hoyt 25" Matrix handle riser (RH)
Hoyt medium length 40# G3 limbs

Easton A/C/C 3-04 shafts cut 29.5" nock grove to end of shaft
ACC one piece points 100gr
ACE "G" nocks .098	
Bohning X-vanes 2" (I fletch my own arrows)


Beiter Clicker	
Beiter Plunger - short 5/16 (light spring) 
ARE Adj. free tune standard rest
Copper John ANTS fita sight 8"	
LAS post sight Aperture 3/8" black
Win & Win Fomax 30" Stabilizer w/ chrome 1.5 oz cap
Easton A/C/E Extender 5"
Win & Win CX V-bar 45x0
Cartel carbon side rods 10"

20 strand 8125 thin bowstring material (I make my own bowstrings)
.018" diam Trilene center serving
Brownell nylon serving thread #4 for end servings 

Arrowhead white large chest guard
Soma SakerMedium finger tab (I cut my own cordovan and deerhide backing

I hve a copy of Kisik Lees book 'Total Archery' and have added to this from comments made by Limbwalker on other threads. I.e thread "Split Finger or 3 under" #9 reply


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

Does your anchor look like this?


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> At what distance are you missing the 52 inch target?


To the best of my recollection they occur in groups which indicates I am doing something different/strange and are usually at 60+ yards. I can't even group (left or anywhere else) on the target. I have too many pieces in my shooting process that are not fixed. When I try to focus on doing everything the same and just change one variable (such as anchor) nothing changes.
I have set my sight pin extreme left - still left arrows. I don't feel I am getting my shoulders aligned with the arrow. It seems that when I'm at full draw the stabilizer is not in alignment with my draw elbow. I don't even
know if any of this is pertinent since I don't know if I have proper back tension. The clicker is giving me fits as well.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

Can you post a few pics?


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

My left shots are often the result of setting my drawing shoulder too far to the right rather than aligned with the left shoulder and the target. This causes me to leave my drawing elbow out away from my body, probably made worse by having to struggle through the clicker using my forearm and fingers to get through. 
Bring the drawing elbow over the top, then setting the right shoulder down and the elbow more in line with the shoulders seems to help a lot. (What often happens is that I get a few shots correct, and refuse to change my sight though the majority go too far right.)


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Does your anchor look like this?


I have anchored as shown but changed to anchoring on the right side of my chin. No changes to left arrow problem.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

Here is a picture of an arrow on the back of a student using an aid I have made to show you how to manipulate the shoulders with the bow at full draw. You can have someone just hold an arrow on your shoulder blades to do the same thing. It is the rear shoulder moving back that creates the alignment. It shows how the arrow points toward the hand as Kisik wants.It also looks like your arrows are a bit underspined for the draw weight according to the Easton shaft selector. Be patient, sometimes it takes us a few questions to get to the problem.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Can you post a few pics?


No. I shoot alone most of the time and don't have a time delay on my digital camera (yea - it's an oldie). However, I have a camcorder with a remote. 
I took some footage but couldn't see anything obviously wrong and deleted them. That was last December. I guess I should take some recent video and relook at them.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

Here is another question for you. Have you adjusted your sight bar so that it is parrallel to your string? I ask this because this can make your arrows impact further away as you adjust your sight as you back away from the target. Another thing you may consider is that you may be losing the pressure of your hand against your face as you come thru the clicker. This is more noticeable as you get further away from the target.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Here is a picture of an arrow on the back of a student using an aid I have made to show you how to manipulate the shoulders with the bow at full draw. You can have someone just hold an arrow on your shoulder blades to do the same thing. It is the rear shoulder moving back that creates the alignment. It shows how the arrow points toward the hand as Kisik wants.It also looks like your arrows are a bit underspined for the draw weight according to the Easton shaft selector. Be patient, sometimes it takes us a few questions to get to the problem.


That looks interesting. I'll give that one a try. I have tried 3L-04 and 3-28 shafts. All shooting left. I'm sure it's me and not the equipment. However, I am open to ALL input on my quest to shoot down the middle. I feel that if I can lick the left problem I can really start to focus on the process and open a new level of shooting.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

You are probably closer to a 3L-18 or a 3-18 ACC @ 40lbs. Keep the faith, soon you will look back on this time as just another bump in the road. You may also want to powder your riser and arrows to see if you are getting any contact. Sometimes when you can't get things to change it could be a clearance problem.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*spine*

If I read your specs correctly, you have 42 or more #'s on the fingers which makes the 3-04 much too weak a spine per the software. I think you may be getting a false reading on the left hits.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> If I read your specs correctly, you have 42 or more #'s on the fingers which makes the 3-04 much too weak a spine per the software. I think you may be getting a false reading on the left hits.


I'm sorry, I don't understand '42 or more #'s on the fingers' could you rephrase?


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Blackfletch said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand '42 or more #'s on the fingers' could you rephrase?


Your limbs are rated at 40lbs. That's with an AMO standard drawlength of 28" but your arrows are cut 29 1/2". That's how SeatlePop assumed you were drawing more than what was rated on the limbs. 2 to 3lbs more per additional inch above 28.

Levl4e's made some pretty good suggestions.


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## krfoss (Aug 25, 2006)

He's probably asking about the weight you are holding at full draw (depending on how far down you have the limbs cranked). I assume you have rated it at approximately 40#, so Im going to trust your reporting. Secondly, you may not need 20 strands for 40#. If the arrows are spined correctly (via software, etc), you may want to make an 18 strand string. See if speeding up the arrow gives you a different response. 

Did you mention that you are constantly shooting left, no matter how you adjust your sight marker?


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> You are probably closer to a 3L-18 or a 3-18 ACC @ 40lbs. Keep the faith, soon you will look back on this time as just another bump in the road. You may also want to powder your riser and arrows to see if you are getting any contact. Sometimes when you can't get things to change it could be a clearance problem.


I'm drawing about 28 1/4" to 39#. I recently tried to tune my equipment (LOL) and ended up with the above. Oh yes, bottom of nock measures 3/8" above level and tiller of + 1/16"

I did the powder check a couple of times when I was tuning and didn't see any problrem. However, when I shot spin vanes there was some tearing of the vanes, some severe. I attributed that to nock alignment on shaft and stayed with the x-vanes.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Levl4e said:


> Here is another question for you. Have you adjusted your sight bar so that it is parrallel to your string? I ask this because this can make your arrows impact further away as you adjust your sight as you back away from the target. Another thing you may consider is that you may be losing the pressure of your hand against your face as you come thru the clicker. This is more noticeable as you get further away from the target.


Good point. I have not checked sight bar being parallel to string.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Have you bear shaft tuned at around 20 yds? If not down load the Easton tuning guide and have a read.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

jerrytee said:


> Have you bear shaft tuned at around 20 yds? If not down load the Easton tuning guide and have a read.


Yes as best I could with the left arrows and lousy grouping. 

On another note, I have Archers Advantage on my computer. According to AA my arrow speed is 183 fps. To me that seems slow. What is an acceptable OR arrow speed?


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

*Try this...*

Set the bow up with a correct centershot. Move the apeture of the sight in so that it is centered on the arrow. Take a piece of masking tape and place it onto the top of the rise, just above the sight window so that the edge of the tape runs on the center of the riser.

Now the bow is set-up to shoot an arrow down the center. At 20 yards shoot a group. Do not adjust the bow or sight at all. If you now shoot a group to the left I'd suggest that the relationship of the rear sight is off. IE "string alignment". It is a common issue. 

When you are at full draw you should be able to see a blurr of the string. This blurr at worst should be aligned with the edge of the masking tape. If it is not, adjust your head ever so slightly until the blurr aligns with the edge of the tape running down the center of the riser. This will get you on the target. 

It will take you a few weeks until you get comfortable with your new head position. Once you do, you can remove the tape.

BEST Regards,


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

What massman said. If I am shooting left, all things being equal, it's because of the "rear sight". If I'm shooting right, it's because my bow arm collapsed and these days, it's because I really don't have enough gas behind it (back tension) to "take up the slack" in the front end. High arrows: rear elbow dropped. Low arrows: I'm straight, but not enough "gas", or my anchor was a moving target.

Anchor point as a moving target is a problem I face and could be yours as well, as a reformed traditional shooter, as it were. It's why I switched to FITA because there were more reference points for anchoring.

But getting the arrow "straight" is a really big deal and that usually comes from what's going on with your draw hand.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

massman said:


> Set the bow up with a correct centershot. Move the apeture of the sight in so that it is centered on the arrow. Take a piece of masking tape and place it onto the top of the rise, just above the sight window so that the edge of the tape runs on the center of the riser.
> 
> Now the bow is set-up to shoot an arrow down the center. At 20 yards shoot a group. Do not adjust the bow or sight at all. If you now shoot a group to the left I'd suggest that the relationship of the rear sight is off. IE "string alignment". It is a common issue.
> 
> ...


My bow is currently set with the aperture centered over the arrow and the arrow point is just left of the string with string centered on bow limbs. Standard setup procedure. When I am at full draw I see the blur of the string
to the right of the sight aperture. I am shooting left with that setup. I may be wrong,but, wouldn't I be moving the bow to the left to achieve this? This in turn would have the pin to the left of target spot and require more clockwise shoulder turn to put the pin back on the target spot? In other words this is a way to get proper shoulder alignment?
I have to move the bow to the left and cause further left arrows?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*arrows?*

Have you done anything about your arrows? I show your arrow should be at least a full inch shorter before it will be close to behaving properly. All the form changes in the world won't fix spine problems that big, and I would think you will be frustrated as your perfected form still produces poor results.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Your arrows are definitely underspined. You need something more in the area of 2014 or ACC 3-18 or ACE 570, something like that, like Levl4e suggested.

It would also be helpful for you to describe your grouping pattern.

Are you grouping decently, but always left? If so, just move the sight. It doesn't necessarily have to be directly above the arrow.

Is your grouping pattern decent vertically but spread out from center to left? What proportion of your shots are to the left, and are they "good" shots that just go left without you knowing that you made a poor release?

Arrow spine comes to mind first. A too weak arrow will definitly cause this. 

One other thing to look at - are you using a clicker? You first post is a bit unclear. If you are, check to see that the plunger tension isn't so weak so that the clicker compresses the spring. When the clicker goes off, it might cause the plunger to spring left and toss the arrow off to the left.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

*Left Arrows*



Blackfletch said:


> I am totally frustrated with shooting left arrows. 90% of my shots are hitting
> to the left - I even have misses on the 52" matt itself. I am a long time NFAA Traditional shooter who has decided to shot Olympic Recurve. I need a level
> 3 coach teaching the BEST system. Is there such a person somewhere in the area of Leesburg, Florida willing to take the challege? The clicker has shown me that my traditional shooting allowed me to overdraw and then settle
> into my anchor. Not possible with a clicker! Also, my Traditional style of anchoring on the side of my face with the jaw bone tucked into the web of my thumb can't be used ,and, I can't find an anchor using a sight. The left arrrows prevent me from developing a shooting process. I'm not an archery moron since I have won two NFAA Nationals and numerous Sectional and State championships. If there is a coach willing to work with me please contact me.


Hi Blackfletch!!

If you are right handed, your arrows are spined properly, your button and arrow rest tuned properly, and without seeing you shoot first hand, I would say you might be overdrawing and by what you quoted about your former traditional style, this might be the culprit. 

I do recommend someone, with recurve knowledge, needs to watch you shoot a few and see if shortening your draw through the clicker is the answer. I had a buddy when I lived in Louisville named Charles "Ron" Lucas who moved to the Orlando area and is still in Florida for all I know. Ron would be able to give your form a look if he's close by. I don't know if you know Tim Austin down in Florida, but he might know where he is at. Also, Dave Brandfass is in Florida, quite the knowledgeable recurve shooter, he might be able to point you in the proper direction.

Back to the culprit, overdrawing can be just as destructive and you just can't figure out what is going on and it's very frustrating. 

Good luck with the changover and hope you find some help.

Jason Lewis


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## Duss (May 23, 2006)

If you are right-handed, it might be :

- string alignment
- you are keeping the string on the ends of your fingers instead of in the crease


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

titanium man said:


> Hi Blackfletch!!
> 
> If you are right handed, your arrows are spined properly, your button and arrow rest tuned properly, and without seeing you shoot first hand, I would say you might be overdrawing and by what you quoted about your former traditional style, this might be the culprit.
> 
> ...


I know all of the people you reference. I've talked to Tim and the people he suggested are a hefty drive for me. I believe the Traditional overdraw is part of the problem. I am still not comfortable with a clicker. I think I will try shooting without the clicker to see how my shooting pattern looks. If I see some tightening of my horizontal grouping I will know that I have a clicker problem(s). However, I will try and make a 'play date' arrangement with one of the listed.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Stash said:


> Your arrows are definitely underspined. You need something more in the area of 2014 or ACC 3-18 or ACE 570, something like that, like Levl4e suggested.
> 
> It would also be helpful for you to describe your grouping pattern.
> 
> ...


I have shot 3-18 and out of frustration my 3-28's. All left shooting. After all the great responses you guys have offered I am confirming my belief that my
equipment is pretty solid and I have form problems that my traditional shooting for 30+ years has created. I have a couple of suggestions I'm anxious to try (the arrow laid against my scapulae, etc). 
Thank you all for your kind input.


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## ice2ice (Aug 23, 2004)

Stash said:


> One other thing to look at - are you using a clicker? You first post is a bit unclear. If you are, check to see that the plunger tension isn't so weak so that the clicker compresses the spring. When the clicker goes off, it might cause the plunger to spring left and toss the arrow off to the left.


This is what I was thinking too...

Had the same thing when I setted up a bow for indoors...
Everything hitted left. No problems with my outdoor bow, so it wasn't me.

Good Luck.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned hand position in the bow. Is the bow being pre-loaded? Are you using a kisser button? This should fix the anchor problem and correct the overdrawing problem as well. If you are using a high wrist grip then the bow hand position is likely your problem. 

You indicated you know the people that were mentioned. Ron Lucas is High Performance Coach and works with people in Apopka a lot. You could contact him and see what you could work out. He is listed on the NAA web site.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi Blackfletch,

I had the same problem when I went to the BEST method. Even with arrows that were overspined, underspined and correctly spined. Turns out that with my focus on all the changes I was losing back tension on release. Along with the loss of BT my forearm and thus my stringhand was tight and stiff. Also I was twisting the string. All these things contributed to my left patterns. Its better now but I was very frustrated for a long time. Keep at it and if you can find someone to actually watch you, do it. If not at least video yourself.

Another thought, as a trad shooter were you "dropping the rock?" If so, now that you are pulling through the clicker you may be plucking... using your arms and pulling your hand out of line away from your face and neck. Keep your stringhand and arm relaxed while using your back muscles to pull through. Keep the stringhand close to the neck as it moves back on the followthrough.

Sorry I'm on the other coast, LOL

Joe B.


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## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

What kind of build do you have? If you have a big chest and draw the string into it can cause left arrows.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

MassMan: I am trying to envision the masking tape thing because I would like to try it but I might need a picture....just where exactly is the tape placed on the riser?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Boltsmyth said:


> Hi Blackfletch,
> 
> Another thought, as a trad shooter were you "dropping the rock?" If so, now that you are pulling through the clicker you may be plucking... using your arms and pulling your hand out of line away from your face and neck. Keep your stringhand and arm relaxed while using your back muscles to pull through. Keep the stringhand close to the neck as it moves back on the followthrough.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking Boltsmith is probably spot on here. If you're not using your back to get through the shot, the string hand comes back and away from the face. Lock that arm to the shoulder and don't use your arm and tricept to get through the shot.

Good luck


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

*Ok...*

The tape goes on the "Front" of the bow. (for those challenged, *as I am*, the "Front" is the part of the riser that you can see when you are at full draw).The tape goes on the area of the limb pocket, just above the sight window. This way you can align the string blurr with the edge of the tap that you have run along the center of the riser...

Hope this helps

BEST Regards,


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Huntmaster said:


> I'm thinking Boltsmith is probably spot on here. If you're not using your back to get through the shot, the string hand comes back and away from the face. Lock that arm to the shoulder and don't use your arm and tricept to get through the shot.
> 
> Good luck


A number of responses have hit on the point of back tension using the scapulae. As I mentioned, I think this is my major problem with a minor in anchoring. As a Traditional shooter I would overdraw and then settle into 
my anchor. In addition I was using my shoulders for drawing/holding. It's 
going to take some time but I will convert to the proper back tension. It is just very slow when you shoot alone all the time.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Blackfletch said:


> It is just very slow when you shoot alone all the time.


Learning true back tension tends to take a long time......up to a year for some. Be patient, and you'll get it. 

One thing I find that helps is a rope bow. Get a piece of soft rope and tie into a loop the size of your DL. As you pull against it, you can really find the muscles needed to expand.

Good luck, and keep trying! My daughter has been through the same stuff, and it took all I could to motivate her to keep trying. It's starting to paying off now, as she's seeing groups that she's proud of.......consistantly.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

> One thing I find that helps is a rope bow.


Another thing that helps you get the proper feel of back tension is a rigid formaster. You can even make your own if you're handy. You can see how to use it on TSAA http://texasarchery.org/Photos/Formaster/Formaster.htm - John


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## SLOWHAND (Dec 28, 2006)

I've shot recurve for four or five years with a bit of success, briefly held a World Masters record, currently have four European Masters records, a National record and many county records.

Dont be too concerned about getting the sight pin above the arrow, at best this is only a very rough guide, if your POI is to the left move the sight to the left. Anything within a quarter inch either way is ok. You must use the string blur for every shot. It dosent matter where you align the blur (I align it just to the right of the apperture) as long as you use the same reference each time. Dont use the clicker for now, this is just complicating things for you. Get your basics right first and then use a clicker. I wrote the following piece for an Archery site in England. Hope it helps.

In my opinion the two most important factors in shooting are Relaxation and Focus. Any muscle that is not relaxed has a tendency to move. It is absolutely vital that we try and relax every muscle in the body as much as possible while going through the shot sequence. We have all seen archers on the line whose arms are trembling with the sheer exertion of holding at full draw. This is caused by trying to pull too heavy a draw weight or incorrect stance and posture. It is impossible to shoot good consistent scores if any part of the body (other than the string fingers) is moving at the time of the shot. The legs, the body, the arms and hands are merely a support for the equipment and the more stable we can make this support the better.
I believe the single most important aspect of this support is the position of the feet in relation to the target. Think about it, everything and I mean everything else connects to the ground through the feet. If the foot position is not right then everything else suffers. Here’s a tip from my rifle shooting days. Using your normal foot position, at full draw try moving the bow to the far left of the boss so you are aiming at the left hand edge (don’t move your feet at this stage) then try moving the bow to the far right of the boss. You may find that you feel more comfortable and relaxed when aiming at the left side, if this is the case then move your back foot forward by an inch (opening your stance) and repeat the process. If you feel more comfortable and relaxed when aiming at the right side move your rear foot back (closing your stance). I shoot with a slightly closed stance (this works for me) and I am always very careful to check this before shooting. Next is how far apart to place the feet. I see people shooting with their feet almost together. Try standing with you feet together and ask someone to give you a gentle push from the side, you might not fall over but your upper body will move, then try it with your feet shoulder width apart- nuff said. Make sure that your hips are in line with your feet and personally I always have my shoulders very nearly in line too. Next thing to look at is posture. For Gods sake stand up straight and tall and confident. Don’t overdue it, remember we are trying to be as relaxed as possible but it is amazing how much easier it is to draw the bow when you are standing tall. Try to get your weight balanced evenly on your feet both left/right and front/back (not on the balls of the feet or on the heels). The most important part of the body to relax is the bow hand and arm/shoulder. It is well worth spending a few club nights just practicing this alone.


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

Thanks for the input. I have bwwn having a bit of success in recent days in getting my arrows to fly at the gold. Unfortunately I'm not sure what has caused this to happen. I took advice from this thread and applied a couple of items such as bow limb alignment (it took me two hours to shim my limbs - they were not aligned), my sight bar was not aligned with the string, and,
I am focusing hard on aligning my shoulders (the suggestion to draw with a high draw elbow seems to make that easier. Finally, I have ordered a new set of arrows (3L-18's) to give a better tune. Whew! I made a lot of changes together, but, I'm impatient. I am a happy camper now with most of my shots at 60 yards in the gold or red. I still have a lot of work to find an anchor and consistant draw process.


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