# new mckinneys.........OUCH!!!



## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

i just got off the phone with carbon tech asking when the new mckinneys would ship. very nice gal said they're going out this week. i said cool and then asked what retail would be................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................$350/doz.  

x10's are now a cheaper choice


----------



## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

I'm sorry, but were these shafts not originally marketed with the intention of being a most cost competitive alternative to X10's?


----------



## shaftcaster (Dec 9, 2004)

M.A.P.-269.99 if that helps any.


----------



## plottman (Nov 15, 2003)

you can buy a good 870 shot gun for that price and your great grandchildren could use it to shoot squirrel many moons from now.


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Anything over $200 a dozen is absolutely outrageous, I don't care what anyone says...

Get real... I mean, for the "neat" factor, sure, I may pay the price...but in reality... a dozen arrows for $250+ is ridiculous.


----------



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

> Seth the XSlayr : Anything over $200 a dozen is absolutely outrageous, I don't care what anyone says...
> 
> Get real... I mean, for the "neat" factor, sure, I may pay the price...but in reality... a dozen arrows for $250+ is ridiculous.


Sorry , i dissagree !

It depends on what u use them for . 

I agree its ridiculous for Bowhunting and 3D Archery with distances up to 50 yards , but that's not all in Archery . This new shaft might be fantastic for field and specially FITA Archery , please dont forget that there are lots more olympic recurve shooters all over the world than 3D Archers in the US .

For example , look at the GT product line , what do they offer , fat shafts for compound shooters , look at Carbon express , only one exeption with the medaillon , others like the PSE shafts and so on and so on ......, what do they offer , always the same .244 or .246 inside diameter carbon shafts for ........ compound shooters and bowhunters !

Thanks to Rick McKinney for the work and the efforts to offer a new alternative shaft to the "real" archery world , the world that too many US manufacturers too often forget !:darkbeer: 

Btw ,i allready ordered some dozens , first should arrive within the next 4/5 days , will be interresting how they really are compared to ACE's and X10's .


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

That's what I love about this forum, bowhunters giving opinions on the cost of target gear. Very valuable. 



Seth the XSlayr said:


> Anything over $200 a dozen is absolutely outrageous, I don't care what anyone says...
> 
> Get real... I mean, for the "neat" factor, sure, I may pay the price...but in reality... a dozen arrows for $250+ is ridiculous.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Let's not forget the cost of a dozen TITANIUM POINTS to go into them! Add what, another $150 a dozen for the points?

field14


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

You know it isn't the cost to make the arrow that drive the cost up.... It's how many they have to throw back that drives the price....


----------



## grandpawrichard (May 29, 2002)

Marcus said:


> That's what I love about this forum, bowhunters giving opinions on the cost of target gear. Very valuable.


Marcus, old frirnd, it's good to see a post from you, even though the remark you made was totally uncalled for!  The last I knew of you, you Always said that Every Person has the right to state his mind and ideas!

I believe that Seth the XSlayr had the right to say exactly what he did, wether you, I or anyone else agree with it!

Dick


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

he said he loved it grandpaw :tongue: loved  

I would agree with seth on the cost if I hadn't ever shot 90 meters before outside...that ain't much money if you want to win a FITA shoot...$800 bow...$260 sight....$250 scope set up.....arrows are just part of the equation


----------



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

> field14 : Let's not forget the cost of a dozen TITANIUM POINTS to go into them! Add what, another $150 a dozen for the points?


Not necessary , u can use Viking points , stainless steel , matched to 0.2 grains , 36 $ a dozen ( here in Europe ) .


----------



## karday (Aug 20, 2002)

*Expensive gear? HMMMM!*

Wow $350 for arrows. At best I may have a 150-175 dollar shot. There has got to be a point when the equipment is removed from the equation and the human skill factor becomes the actual determinant of the consistency of where the arrow hits. I learned in some NAA training that Olympic Recurve archers are almost constantly tuning their arrows. In many cases the top shooters may likely get sponsors to defray the cost much the same way as Pro Golfers. I doubt Tiger or Phil have paid for any golf gear in a long time. Their clubs may have a brand name on them but you could neither buy or use their clubs. Archers in the elite ranks are unlikely as fortunate since archery is not a mainstream activity (we need to change that If you bought a set of $350 arrows and they guaranteed you 1 more 10 than what you were using you would consider it cheap. Just not sure how you would know that for sure. If you shot no better than three 9's and these arrows consistently produced three 10's you would be one happy camper. In reality I think what any elite competitor is really buying when he uses premier gear is that split second piece of mind when he is loosing the last arrow for a win and he can relax knowing that he has done everything he can to make sure the arrow ends up where he is aimimg.


----------



## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

I would love to have the cash there was on the target line at the AZ cup. every pic of the targets i saw had i'm guessing 10 dozen x10's in them. them people don't seem to mind.

trying to compare a corvette to a lamborghini is kinda hard isn't it, if you haven't drove both right.

same thing if you compare say a goldtip 55/75 hunter shaft to a easton x10 shaft.


----------



## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

One of the more humbling things that someone who considers themselves a good 3D or indoor archer can do is to shoot some arrows at 90 meters. When you are standing next to it the target looks HUGE! It's 4 feet across! But at a 100 yards away it looks awfully small. Add even a little wind and you'll find it hard keeping them on the target face.

Then try it with a recurve.

That is why people pay $300-$400 for arrows. They are specialized to fly a LOOOONG distance accurately. There is a reason just about all FITA archers pony up the money for X-10s. They are the best for the job.

P.S. No I don't own X-10s. I can't afford them.


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Technology deserves a premium.

The tungsten points are another great example.



 


I like the latest and greatest as much as the next "bowhunter / 3D 'neck".



Please tell me what it is about these arrows that makes them "logically" worth at least twice as much...as the arrows that were posting top scores prior to their arrival....



Again, I appreciate technology...and with it comes a price... but as far as performance.... please explain the difference in value. Thanks...


Seth


----------



## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

Seth,

I tried to find the website that shows all world records from the first olympics where archery was a event to present but i cant find it. maybe someone here will have that link.

what i do remember about it the substantial amount of points the WR's were increased at the 1988 olympic games where the ACE was introduced that forwarded the conception of the x-10. all the WR's that were shattered were by this barreled shaft design and it was by ten to 20 points in most situations. that is quite a bit if you look at how the scores were before that.


----------



## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

$350 a dozen is CHEAP when you consider what some people are doing with them. First, you get to shoot them over and over again. Second, they probably buy 3 dozen or so a year, but that barely is the price of a new bow setup...yet the arrows are far more important than getting a new bow every year. If you are serious about the FITA game, a couple grand a year in arrows is nothing.

When I was serious about IPSC pistol shooting (and I was a low "B" shooter) I burned up a couple thousand dollars a year in ammo even though I reloaded my own. Reloading time alone cost me almost as much time as practice time. Lets not even get started on the price of equipment.


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Guess I should have jumped on that dozen X10s I saw go for $180 in the classifieds then!

I'm always takin' 90 meter shots at deer! 




I wonder if these arrows will still be this price in 2 or 3 years?


----------



## superdiablo (Feb 7, 2003)

It could be cheap, depending on the REAL quality of them. 

I know of some other hyped brands were you must perform a home made selection wich points 2 to 4 shafts out of a dozen that doesn't group tight with the others;perhaps more than 4 if a spetial machine is used ... 

Shaft weight and spine are not the "only" values to take in account for long FITA distances. Do my brand new hyped shafts withstand a "radial spine" (sorry I cannot find the correct word to name the concept of a true maintained spine value when you rotate the shaft 360 degree on its longer axle) precision check at Beiter's facility :zip: ? Hopefully new McKInneys will (old ones did it better and cheaper than competitors  ), perhaps quality points are included in the price ...

I myself give him a big credit in advance, he knows something about the FITA game :wink: .There is a lot to say about the quality of a shaft from the ammount of them that you have not to reject out of the box, IMHO. Of course it depends a lot on the archer's level and the application they are intended for (Carbontech makes cheaper carbon's for hunters, etc, don't they?)

Javier Martinez


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

AKDoug said:


> $350 a dozen is CHEAP when you consider what some people are doing with them. First, you get to shoot them over and over again. Second, they probably buy 3 dozen or so a year, but that barely is the price of a new bow setup...yet the arrows are far more important than getting a new bow every year. If you are serious about the FITA game, a couple grand a year in arrows is nothing.
> 
> When I was serious about IPSC pistol shooting (and I was a low "B" shooter) I burned up a couple thousand dollars a year in ammo even though I reloaded my own. Reloading time alone cost me almost as much time as practice time. Lets not even get started on the price of equipment.


good point-the year I set the state record in PIN shooting and made Class A (back when that was the highest class) in IPSC I shot almost 50,000 rounds one year and that meant loading a few hours a week on a big DIllion 1000 we had at the range. back then 1000 handloaded 45 with good quality lead bullets was about 40 bucks a thousand (I got the brass free) so you can do the math.

The best bow in the world with all the gizmos is less than a middle to top of the line "race gun" and when I was shooting skeet, most of the other top international style circuit shooters had at least 10K in shotguns (two K-80's, Mirages, or Kemens)


----------



## Michigander (Jul 31, 2002)

Theres no question that Rick knows his equipment and knows how to make shafts with quality. His Line has been excellent so far and I sell a LOT of them.
While I'm not in the category that needs to use Barrelled shafts, I still like to play with them when I can find a good set at a good price. Until I 'm able to do that with McKinney shafts also, I'll continue to use Navigators,Cartels, ect. For now I have a set of 550 X-10's and am not seeing a whole lot of difference in my scoring ability. No doubt I'm not the only one in this forum who realizes this, so can save my money for now.....for those that really do find a score increase........well, there is always Easton sponsorships. Those people likely already have one anyway.  
If you don't know why those type shafts are so expensive, or don't see a scoring difference with them, you probably don't need them anyway, so can continue to save your cash.:wink: 
I'm just happy that there are alternative FITA shafts on the market that cost much less.


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

442fps said:


> Sorry , i dissagree !
> 
> It depends on what u use them for .
> 
> ...



"THE REAL ARCHERY WORLD ?"


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

In 442FPS's defense I think he means there is a lot more to the archery world than hunting and hunting target games... I read the same comment but passed over it... 
Target archery is very large and like any other sport you'll have high end gear that will drain your account...

I still will need some proof to justify arrows costing twice the amount of "lesser" high end arrows... ha


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Seth the XSlayr said:


> In 442FPS's defense I think he means there is a lot more to the archery world than hunting and hunting target games... I read the same comment but passed over it...
> Target archery is very large and like any other sport you'll have high end gear that will drain your account...
> 
> I still will need some proof to justify arrows costing twice the amount of "lesser" high end arrows... ha


 NEVER even thought about those games. field, Vegas, Louisville 
Stan Open. Is also part of the "Real"


----------



## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

If these shafts are X-10 level (and why wouldn't they?) they are hand picked/adjusted one by one, so when one gets a dozen - it's an identical dozen, not just weight.

That's a big part of the price.


----------



## bigdawg (Feb 26, 2003)

where is everybody seeing this?? Sorry, I haven't seen it on the webpage.....I am interested in this, and would love to see a picture and read some info about this arrow.


Blair


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Yeah LOVE GPR, I found it highly entertaining reading people slam a product they know nothing about. 

$350 is CHEAP after you have spent your life and thousands and thousands of dollars to compete on a WORLD level. Imagine standing there at the Olympic games, 12 shots between you and an Olympic medal, and there you are, with your $99 Gold Tips up against your competitor using purpose built wind cutters by Carbon Tech. 

I mean really, why are you guys using $100 arrows when some $5 dowel will surely do the job.


----------



## sean (May 31, 2003)

Marcus said:


> Yeah LOVE GPR, I found it highly entertaining reading people slam a product they know nothing about.
> 
> $350 is CHEAP after you have spent your life and thousands and thousands of dollars to compete on a WORLD level. Imagine standing there at the Olympic games, 12 shots between you and an Olympic medal, and there you are, with your $99 Gold Tips up against your competitor using purpose built wind cutters by Carbon Tech.
> 
> I mean really, why are you guys using $100 arrows when some $5 dowel will surely do the job.




Hoyt target ultra tec 890.00 infinity rest 140.00 hoggernaut site 560.00 doinker stabilizer 145.00 gold tip pro 22's 105.00 only having to shoot with smug fita guys at redding once a year PRICELESS .................................................................................................................................................................just kidding .... or am I :wink: :wink: :wink:


----------



## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

sean said:


> only having to shoot with smug fita guys at redding once a year PRICELESS


It has nothing to do with being smug. It has to do with understanding our game. You wouldn't use an X-Acto knife to perform surgery, why would you use hunting arrows to shoot FITA targets?

Why do people insist on purposely doing ridiculous things to prove they are a "guy".

There is an old post by GT that explains exactly why x10 are the best arrows for FITA and shooting longer distances in general. You can find the old post on your own. It may have been on the Sagitarius board.

P.S. My whole FITA recurve setup, including arrows and accessories, cost less than your sight. Just because we can spend a lot more on gear doesn't mean we do.


----------



## Guest (Apr 19, 2006)

Not so sure on the cost thing, I shot with Dietmar when he shot back to back 1400's and also tied the 90m record(347) with those GT bowhunting arrows. On paper the X-10 should be better, the ACE should be better but they can't hold a candle to my Cartels at half the price.

I suspect that the new Mckinneys will be similar to the old Easton Vector shaft but maybe smaller


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

> It has nothing to do with being smug


then why has someone referred to it as "REAL ARCHERY"???? :wink:


----------



## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jose Boudreaux said:


> then why has someone referred to it as "REAL ARCHERY"???? :wink:


OK, maybe we are a bit smug. :aniangel:


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

yep and in perfect weather arrows are arrows. 
But why is Dietmer shooting X10's now and not Lightspeeds or Fatboys? 



Because for FITA they are better. 



Sean McKenty said:


> Not so sure on the cost thing, I shot with Dietmar when he shot back to back 1400's and also tied the 90m record(347) with those GT bowhunting arrows. On paper the X-10 should be better, the ACE should be better but they can't hold a candle to my Cartels at half the price.
> 
> I suspect that the new Mckinneys will be similar to the old Easton Vector shaft but maybe smaller


----------



## Friar Tuck (Nov 18, 2004)

*Cost*

I find it funny that people can laugh at the cost of arrows after spending $500 - $800 for the bow, $100 - 500 for a sight setup and then ridicule spending $200 + on arrows.

Depending on what you are shooting would I imagine dictate what you buy. For some people they are happy to have one setup to cover all their shooting requirements. Others prefer to specialise in one field of shooting.

There is after all a vast difference when you go from shooting 35 - 45 metres (3D) to 90 Metres FITA. In perfect weather as Marcus stated most arrows will do the job but any amount of wind factor and the specialised arrows do make a difference.


----------



## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Friar Tuck said:


> I find it funny that people can laugh at the cost of arrows after spending $500 - $800 for the bow, $100 - 500 for a sight setup and then ridicule spending $200 + on arrows.


On the other hand if you too often shoot one into the green ring, where the green ring is made of tree, or worse, concrete, then you'll be glad you are shooting x7s rather than x10s.


----------



## karday (Aug 20, 2002)

Bow, sights etc. are permanent hardware. However, arrows are actually the expendable piece of archery gear. Now obviously we want to shoot them over and over, but in the case of hunting why on earth would someone use x10's or these arrows is beyond me. Yet they surely do and I have seen x10's on peoples hunting rigs. Back to the reaons why someone would spend so much money on arrows:

1) They have it to spend
2) They are looking for something other than themselves to produce their intended result
3) If it is expensive it has got to be better (price determines everything)

Many top FITA/Recurve coaches will certainly tell you it is better to tune the arrows to your bow. Most archery sights have a MOA. One of 5/32 yields a 5/32" change over 100 yards for one mark. That same distance at say 20 yards is about the thickness of an arrow (.288) Not worth fighting over at that distance but at the 100 yards it is a different story. Just all depends on what you are doing with your bow.

My issue with this situation in archery is that many of these things are not substantiated before the purchase. The more testing manufacturers do the more expensive the product. Mercedes does considerably more testing of their top end cars than less expensive brands. If they didn't act on any of the test results how stupid would that be? IF archery manufacturers would do a double based test where they took the next best item and scientifically compared it under controled conditions and quantified the measured improvement then took a segment of archers all shotting identical equipment to quantifible deltas under himan conditions then presented them in a comparative and quantified matrix, we could see the things that actually are better than what we are now using.

This is expensive and would certainly add to the end unit costs. Unfortunately, it is easier to develop a perceived improvement wherein it is often only 'different' from last year's offering. As the margin of difference narrows as we approach perfection it becomes more difficult to improve and the cost and change become inversely proportional. e.g. the cost goes up and the improvement value diminishes. Likely why the archery industry as a whole, markets to the existing archer audience rather than trying to appeal to the larger audience of new archers.


----------



## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

Marcus said:


> yep and in perfect weather arrows are arrows.
> But why is Dietmer shooting X10's now and not Lightspeeds or Fatboys?
> 
> 
> ...


He get them free from easton so why not,If I got them free I would use them aswell.


----------



## alexvpaq (Nov 28, 2005)

X-10 are great arrow with one of those ugly price... but if they are this price... maybe there is a lil bit more technology behind them than Easton Jazz :wink: 5$ unit i think or even less LOL!
Hope you like my advice if you hate fancy arrow :tongue: buy some JaZz those are almost priceless!!!


----------



## thumperX (Jun 9, 2004)

*ouch!!!*

Sorry but $30+ per arrow!!! cant see that!!!


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thumperX said:


> Sorry but $30+ per arrow!!! cant see that!!!


It all depends at what level you are competing at and in what discipline


----------



## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

"Now obviously we want to shoot them over and over, but in the case of hunting why on earth would someone use x10's or these arrows is beyond me. Yet they surely do and I have seen x10's on peoples hunting rigs. Back to the reaons why someone would spend so much money on arrows:"


You have never seen a hunter with X10s...there is no insert availible..and the diameter of the arrow is smaller than the thread diameter on a broadhead. I very much doubt that these arrows will see any field time...as once again their diameter is smaller than the threads on a broadhead, and there is no benefit for a hunter. Serious tournament archers can spend $10000+ a year on tournaments...$350 for the best equipment is just the cost of doing things right. To invest that kind of money into shooting, and then skimp on arrows is foolish. 

"He get them free from easton so why not,If I got them free I would use them aswell."

He got his Goldtips free too....


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

Mr. Trillus stated Gold tip makes a good arrow but he realized he needed a smaller arrow..like the x-10

further more I think he was shooting UL600's...hardly a hunting arrow...

I freaked when I saw the cost of ACE's and how small they were and wondered why the guy that won our state field shoot last year would use something so small.....then I shot at 90 meters with my UL 500's....no wind...pretty....some wind...pretty ugly   

I have not competed in any fita...may be a while before that....but I been able to fling some at a 122cm target at 70 and 90 meters. If you ain't done that and kept track of how you did without wind and with wind with a shaft like a gold tip UL500...you are ignorant(meaning you just don't know) to what a skinny wind cutting shaft can do for you at those distances...it don't take much wind to blow it off, even for a shaft doing 274fps when it has to go 98 yards  

check out what any of the top shooters are using, Cousins, Dudley's, Gellenthians, Trillus, no coincidence....


----------



## ChappyBoss (Nov 10, 2005)

Hi All,
$350 for a dozen top grade target arrows. Sounds like a lot doesn't it. But I shoot mainly fita (target and field) and normally get through 2 dozen ace's a year. I did shoot McKinneys in the past and they did seem to be more durable than ace's. So if the new arrows are good- I think Rick knows what he is doing (major understatement). I will probably try them. Hope to see them soon. In fact if anyone has seen/shot them PLEASE PLEASE can we have a review.
Regards ChappyBoss


----------



## asheed mdrawrz (Dec 25, 2005)

If your going to price the new McKinney at $350 and complain or bash or whatever you want to call it then be fair and use Eastons suggested retail of $399 for X10's.
These arrows were designed to be used as ACE's or X10's would be with reduced weight and increased FOC (just the ticket for lower draw weights and wind). 
The shop I got mine from sold them for $269-much less than the X10's and just under the comparable ACEs. 
So far I would say they are all they are cracked up to be-spine tolerance as advertised, straightness as well and very durable.

AM


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Over thirty bucks for an arrow....Wouldn't be so bad if you knew for sure it wasn't going to be ruined by getting hit by another arrow, shot into the butt backing or other things that do them in. I know that if I buy a new dozen I'll enevitably butcher one somehow within a day or two... Kind of the same train of thought when I buy a musky lure that cost over twenty bucks and you throw it out there and don't know if it will be coming back to the boat.

I looked at the new McKinney's at Louisville, and if they shoot as good as they look, they'll be great


----------



## Rhood (Apr 8, 2006)

*Arrows*

Archery is getting like car racing,The tecnology is getting so expensive, that it does.nt matter, how good you are,you wont be able to afford the top gear to compete,against manufactuers sponsored teams, as ferrari etc,


----------



## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Every world record with a recurve has been shot with X10's at $440 / dozen, not including tungsten tips at $200 / dozen for a few of those wr's. Most of the world records with a compound have been shot with X10's or ACE's except one. The most important one of all for compounders, the full FITA.

Guess which arrow was used for that 1414 out of 1440 possible?

The original CT McKinney, shot by Roger Hoyle and has stood since 2001.

Finally the Mckinney's are back, better than ever and will be worth every penny.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## karday (Aug 20, 2002)

Good news to the next world record setter. You can buy accuracy! NOT! To the rest of us we just do not need $440 arrows and $200 tips. The $150 -200 Nike only cost that much because the "market will bear the price" basic economic theory. Why sell McKinneys for $95/dz if you can get $350? If i made them I sure wouldn't. If you are a potential world record setter I doubt you will have to pay for any arrows or tips anyhow. For those of us that are not the next world record holder we just need to have fun with what we got, especially if we can't afford those prices.


----------



## tellico (Feb 12, 2006)

Wow!

Related note:  Ordered arrows from CT. Never showed. Called them 5 WEEKS LATER: "our flecthing machine is broken" -- direct quote from AN ARROW MANUFACTURER. OK, asked to have them sent cut -- back cut, because they're Panthers and there were spine issues. CT sent them uncut -- weeks later -- so, total time: 7 weeks plus from order to arrow.

Thus far, factory GTs and Maximas WAY outshoot them. Very disappointed. $129 for 12 shafts alone; with fletching, $156 per dozen.

Ouch! Caveat emptor.


----------



## Michigander (Jul 31, 2002)

There will never be a manufacteruer that will be able to please everyone. I'll add to thatagain...... .....in archery, the manufcturers I'd say would be doing well to please even half of the people, half of the time:wink:  
I like Rick And I think he makes a hell of a product(s). I'll continue to use and recommend his equipment till he rubs me the wrong way too I suppose:eyebrows:


----------



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm using the CT McKinney II now since one week , first impression , best arrow i've ever shot .:darkbeer: 
Can't say something about the performance right now cause the time is too short , but just right from the beginning i had tighter groups than with my ACE's on 60 meters , with an amazing speed , my protec with spirals is doing 321 fps with it , yeah , i know , they are too light , i don't care about , it's 4.4 grains/lbs , a good bow should be able to handle it and i know that this isn't a prob for the Protec and also not for my CSS System and the Encore .:wink: 
More about them later , after some more tests , specially on very hard target material like trees , backstops etc etc etc .... :cocktail:


----------



## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

*arrows*

how are the new arrows shooting


----------

