# D bow vs. other limb styles



## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

What are the differences in performance and shootability between the D bows and other styles? I have a Hill style bow and really like it. It's my first longbow and I've only shot 4 other longbows and they are all D bows. I want to order a bow and I'm thinking it'll be a Toelke but I'm trying to decide between a Whip or his D bow. One of the bows I've shot is a D bow that was made by Toelke and it's nice. I was also considering the Whippenstick or The classic D bow from Ken O. but I read that he doesn't make custom bows anymore, just builds them for stock bows. I'm new to these longbows so right now everything is as clear as mud to me.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Straight limbed D or a stealth D? Straight limbed compared to mild D/R or aggressive? 

There are tons of factors that contribute to how a bow feels and performs, but for the most part you'll see less handshock and better speed with more limb curve when unbraced, provided the bow is well designed. For a practical comparison you will usually see about 10-20 fps difference between a Hill style straight limbed bow and a curved limb longbow, which means less handshock with the faster bow due to improved efficiency.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I guess I don't really know? I thought a true D bow was pretty straight. What is the Toelke D bow? I think it's straight limbed but I might be wrong. I better just call Mr. Toelke and see what he thinks. Thank you for the help. Now I'm really confused lol.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MT Kevin said:


> I guess I don't really know? I thought a true D bow was pretty straight. What is the Toelke D bow? I think it's straight limbed but I might be wrong. I better just call Mr. Toelke and see what he thinks. Thank you for the help. Now I'm really confused lol.


True D can be pretty relative. 

Technically, the only bow that will true D is a bend-through handle bow, but who shoots those competitively enough to define it that way? 

What matters is that when strung the string does not touch the limb and you cannot see any reverse curvature. If you can notice any reverse curvature, then it's a mild recurve bow, a R/D longbow.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MT Kevin said:


> Thank you for the help. Now I'm really confused lol.


Which is sort of the point. There are tons of factors involved in comparing bows, and just because two bows share a similar shape doesn't mean they'll perform the same.

For the most part anything with unbraced curve to the limbs will be faster with less handshock. Whether that matters to you or not is personal preference.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Most important to me is accuracy. I like the John Schulz America Longbow I have and think I shoot o.k. considering I've only been shooting it for a month and a half. Speed isn't the deciding factor for me. I still have my compound if I need speed. I want something that looks great and shoots great. I think I'll probably try a whip since I already have the Hill style bow. I'm gathering that the whip will be a little faster and smoother and that's not a bad thing. Thank you for the replies.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I owned a Whip for a while, by far the nicest one piece longbow that I ever owned. I have had several Bear Montanas, a Samick Verna, and Dryad Orion (take down but awesome bow). I think once you shoot a nice r/d longbow (like the whip) your other (d-style) bow will collect dust. The difference after the shot is pretty noticeable and the increased speed is a plus also.
There have been several Fox longbows in the classifieds lately - they are first rate and are much like a recurve in the riser with a locating type grip and more mass to the riser area.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I've been watching here and some other places for one. Everything I see posted in the classifieds is 40-50 pounds it seems like. I want something around 70 so I'll probably end up ordering one. Thanks.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm sorry but accuracy as a #1 priority is not something which really connects well with a 70# Hill bow.

What do you define as good accuracy? What can you achieve with your current bow?

-Grant


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm sorry Grant, do you know me or what I can pull? My Schulz is 74lbs. @ 27" and my draw is 29". I have no problem drawing or holding it at anchor. I don't know how to put pictures on here from my phone. I took a picture so I could put it on here for you but I'm not savvy enough about posting to do it. I've only been shooting this longbow for around a month and a half so haven't shot much past 20 yards. More worried about getting everything right and consistant before I try to shoot distances. I would be glad to e-mail pictures of my 20 yard group that I took today if someone would be nice enough to post them here so Grant can tell me what he thinks. I just figured 70 pounds would be nice and relaxing to shoot and if my Hill style bow at somewhere around 80 pounds isn't accurate I can't wait to shoot a 70 pound bow that is supposed to shoot even better!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

You're not going to find too many advocates of 70+ pound hill style longbows around here. If you can shoot one with control and accuracy, by all means have at it. I think you will find a lot more guys shooting 45# recurves with an emphasis on accuracy. Many (me included) like to use the NFAA 300 round as a gauge of one's ability. Are you a new trad shooter or have you been at this for a few years? Kegan has been down the road of heavy longbows and has some useful insight.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I wasn't looking for advocates of anything. I asked for input on the difference in bow types. I'm not worried what everyone else can shoot for weight. I'll worry about the weight that I can shoot comfortably. Wasn't asking what weight I should get. I hunt with my bows. I don't target shoot other than practice and don't ever plan to shoot in competition. I want something that puts an arrow into a critter hard and shoots nice. I like a longbow. If I wanted a recurve I would have asked about them. Thanks to those that gave me advice pertaining to what I asked.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MT Kevin said:


> I wasn't looking for advocates of anything. I asked for input on the difference in bow types. I'm not worried what everyone else can shoot for weight. I'll worry about the weight that I can shoot comfortably. Wasn't asking what weight I should get. I hunt with my bows. I don't target shoot other than practice and don't ever plan to shoot in competition. I want something that puts an arrow into a critter hard and shoots nice. I like a longbow. If I wanted a recurve I would have asked about them. Thanks to those that gave me advice pertaining to what I asked.


Wow...ease up there Kevin...you did kind of generalize with "other limb styles" of which recurve is one and the way I read it?...thus far all anyone has attempted to do is help you with what is their opinions based on personal experience...as will I.

Like others have mentioned?...there's so many factors that make up the overall behavior of a bow?...imho?...it's almost impossible to speak in absolutes...for instance?....one archer can say that....."D-shaped bows have more felt shock"....but take a light risered bow with gobs of Reflex/Deflex in the limbs and shoot a light 8GPP arrow off it?...and the story changes quickly....especially when compared to a heavier risered D-bow shooting some rather hefty 12GPP arrows and suddenly the D-bow is the newly crowned king of smooth. :laugh:

I'm also of the belief that there's TWO (2) versions of what folks commonly refer to as "Hand Shock" that not many acknowledge whereby there's two forms of it...

1. Is where the heavily reflexed/deflexed limbed hybrids actually do have a generous helping of hand shock when launching lighter arrows and mainly due to the elevated level of static string tension their design supports...but then there's the..

2. "Extended Felt Vibes" of the D-bows which do not possess quite as much static string tension and the duration of the string vibration seems to last a bit longer and is in turn perceived as "Shock"....when in fact it's just "extended felt vibrations"

But (also IMHO) in either of these cases?....the lions share of how any type of bow will behave at the shot depends largely on how well tuned it is...how heavy (or light) of an arrow is used and?...even the type of string (and how it's set-up) can make a marked difference.

Now Hill style bows?....to me they are grip it and rip it teeth rattlers....as they don't really even have a riser to speak of....they are just one big long limb with a grip in the middle...and here is where you will see shooters of such placing huge value on excessively heavy arrows....and for good reason. 

Me?...I just came in from shooting 410gr 5/16ths cedars off my 66"/32# Falco Force...and remembering how much I love the full pistol grip of it's wenge riser....



















Hope that helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Kevin 

Folks are just trying to be helpful 

Let me ask a question 

Your a hunter ? 

You want to perform your best ? 

You want a bow to perform its best for you ? 

You like longbows 

So I won't mention recurves 

If I told you that say a bow from Kegan at 60 pounds would outperform your 74 pound Hill style bow 

Not by a little........ but by a lot 

I would guarantee that you would shoot it better also  

There are other reflex deflex longbows of course that will do it also Centaur , Border etc 

Reason I brought up Kegan is price and performance are very hard to beat with his bows 

Now by all means if you like the way a D longbow looks that's great but you asked about performance and feel not look 

Btw 

I don't shoot longbows 

I like recurves 

If ya really wanna know about performance ask me about them  

Good luck and take it easy 

Btw 

Little side story 

An old friend and shooting partner that I know came home shooting a 70 + pound Hill style bow 

He thought he shot it well 

He now is shooting a 48 pound Omega from Kegan.....he is drawing two inches longer he is twice as accurate and all he does is smile every time he zips an arrow down range faster than his 70 + pound hill bow ever could with zero bad vibes etc 

Again I'm not knocking anyone's choice to shoot a D long bow 

You asked


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## meatCKR (Sep 29, 2011)

Hi Kevin - Looks like your in Montana. Dan Toelke is in Montana. Granted, Montana is a pretty big state, but if I lived anywhere in Montana, I would find a way to get to his shop and check out his bows. I have had a Toelke Whip but now shoot a Super D and love it. But you have to check them out in person. Another thought is don't rule out a mild R/D longbow that braces to a D. There are some mighty fine bows in that category that give the best of both worlds - the classic look and feel of a "D" bow but the great performance and smooth with minimal hand shock. Some in that category that come to mind are the Great Northern Bush Bow and Mohawk bows. Good Luck to you on your journey!


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## meatCKR (Sep 29, 2011)

To illustrate the mild R/D here are some pics of my Great Northern Critter Gitter Special made by Jerry Brumm. Jerry doesn't make these anymore but still makes the Bush Bow. This bow is a compact longbow at 58 inches but packs a real punch with a heavy arrow. It's marked 58 pounds at 28" but feels a couple of pounds light of that. What I love about this bow is the limb design. It braces to a smooth D but the trapped mild R/D design really delivers performance. I almost sold this bow once, but came to my senses before anyone snatched it up.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Kevin, you have a great hunting bow and a REAL longbow. The other bows are just recurves that want to be longbows 

The bow you have is actually classified as an ASL American Semi Longbow. Do not listen to the nay sayers, these are deadly accurate great hunting bows. You might want to hang with guys that shoot them and have mastered them -- there are also some forums online. By the way, the current World Record IFAA Field round (target archery) was shot with an older Hill Style (ASL) longbow. Most do not understand how they are to be shot, once the technique is mastered, nothing else even comes close. I would not trade my ASL for anything else, nothing feels as good ...and I pretty much have everything else...lol it all sits and collects dust.

Hint: the key is in the grip.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

shoot whatever makes you happy, but if you don't at least consider an Omega, you're cheating yourself of an opportunity.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

The best modern D profile longbows will perform with about as much power and speed as any longbow shape and will rival the best recurves. 

A fair number of us hereabouts have or still do shoot 70 or 80 pound longbows, because they can and they enjoy doing it.

Some of these shoot them very well and have won championships with them.

Hill style bows have won many championships and one of them was used to set the current world record for field archery.

Howard Hill won 295 straight field archery tournaments with his, and took over 3000 head of game.

Many of us prefer Hill style bows, and/or modern D profile bows to all others.

If you agree, more power to you. See how many of the doubters you can outshoot. 

Having said all that, it is true that most men shoot their best drawing less than 50 pounds, but not all. - lbg


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks to all for the input. I wasn't trying to be harsh, just don't need people telling me how much I can or can't pull. I know what I can pull. Was interested in the difference in limb designs performance wise and shootibility of the bows I mentioned. I'm big and dumb and I can lift heay things......that's why some people like me.......not because I'm smart or good looking. This Hill style bow at around 80 pounds is fun to shoot. I shoot at least 100 arrows a day every day and as long as I pay attention to form I'll stack arrows fairly tight at 20 yards. JParanee, guess I don't know anything about Keagan or his bows. How dow I find thd m to research them? Also I'd still like to put the picture up if someone can PM me their e-mail I'll send a picture of a 4 arrow group from today at 20 yards from this Hill style bow that isn't accurate shot by a rookie (me). Thanks.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks to all for the input. I wasn't trying to be harsh, just don't need people telling me how much I can or can't pull. I know what I can pull. Was interested in the difference in limb designs performance wise and shootibility of the bows I mentioned. I'm big and dumb and I can lift heay things......that's why some people like me.......not because I'm smart or good looking. This Hill style bow at around 80 pounds is fun to shoot. I shoot at least 100 arrows a day every day and as long as I pay attention to form I'll stack arrows fairly tight at 20 yards. JParanee, guess I don't know anything about Keagan or his bows. How dow I find them to research them? Also I'd still like to put the picture up if someone can PM me their e-mail I'll send a picture of a 4 arrow group from today at 20 yards from this Hill style bow that isn't accurate shot by a rookie (me). I thought i was doing pretty good for a month and a half in, i might be wrong though but i don't think so. Thanks.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

As a longbow guy let me say there is a lot of variation between bows, not just the different profiles but even the same types. For example, I've owned several Hill style bows. I owned 3 from the same maker that were screamers. They had no trouble shooting an arrow at 8 gpp and a 28" draw in 190-200 fps range. By contrast I owned a different hill style that barely broke 170 with 8 gpp arrows. All were around 65-70# and had similar strings. Guess what, the slow one also was beast in the hand while the faster ones were very mild. 

The same goes for the R/D bows and recurves. Performance can vary wildly. In all honesty, the best thing is to look up info on the bows that catch your eye and if possible, try one first. I've had some bows that I sold quickly because they didn't suit me for one reason or another but in the long run I'm glad I tried them. It did help me narrow down the types of bows I like as well as the characteristics I value. 

Btw, since you asked in your original post about whippensticks, if you find a used one in the weight you want and you buy it you won't be disappointed. I own several (his normal hybrid, 2 custom stealth D hybrids, a whipplash, a classic, and a pair of firehawks). They perform with anything out there and they'll do it quietly and smoothly. Craftsmanship is fantastic. Even though Ken is currently not taking custom orders he is planning to build stock bows and list them regularly.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

http://omegalongbows.webs.com

Like I said shoot what you like 

Folks out there saying that conventional D style Hill long bows can perform as in GPP as well as the best Curves and Hybrids out there imho have not shot the best out there 

As for having people tell you what you can pull 

I don't think that is the case 

They are just trying to say you dont need that kind of weight to accomplish your goals ....... Unless your goal is to just shoot heavy bows which is fine 

But again you asked


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## ChadMR82 (Sep 22, 2009)

I use to have a Bamabow Hunter. It was a D shaped bow and I really liked it. It was no speed burner but it shot well, especially with heavy wood arrows. 

Archery is for sure a personal preference sport. Shoot what you like.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

The only real drawbacks to a Hill style straight limbed bow is performance, and even that's relative. Typically they're slower, so you're putting more work in to get less power out. Honestly, this isn't an issue unless someone is at the very extreme end of draw weight (30# or less) and trying to maximize their performance on big game. Anything above that really is over kill. Beyond the difference in speed and handshock, which varies as much between builders as it does between designs, there's no reason the bow can't shoot very well. There are just different manners to the different designs, and you might find you like the better speed and less shock of a stealth D or a hybrid. It's honestly just personal preference!

As for the draw weight stuff, heavy bows and high accuracy don't really go well together. There are some rare individuals that can and do shoot well with heavy bows, but the problem with the internet is that there are a heck of a lot more people who can pull heavy bows but can't actually shoot them accurately. Below is a photo of a group I shot a few years ago with a 70# hybrid longbow at 20 yards. I thought I was accurate- heck I could shoot ping pong balls that my brother threw up out of the air with my 70-85# bows. Like you, I was just interested in hunting and so I never bothered with shooting paper. I did once on a whim to see just where I stacked up... and I didn't. I was at the bottom of the ladder. I shot a 186 out of 300, which is about what many beginners can do. I could pull the bows fine, but shooting them was a different story. Now though, I can shoot better groups than that now every time I go out with a bow in the 45-50# range, and I've killed more animals with bows in that weight range too. 

Back to the point, even if you never intend to compete, putting up a $0.25 target face and shoot just 60 arrows at it will help figure where you are in your progression. If you're under 220, you could probably stand to drop down a bit more than 10#. If, however, you're shooting 220 or better there's no reason no to stick with the heavy stuff if that's what you enjoy. The paper is just an impartial judge of accuracy.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

MT Kevin said:


> I wasn't looking for advocates of anything. I asked for input on the difference in bow types. I'm not worried what everyone else can shoot for weight. I'll worry about the weight that I can shoot comfortably. Wasn't asking what weight I should get. I hunt with my bows. I don't target shoot other than practice and don't ever plan to shoot in competition. I want something that puts an arrow into a critter hard and shoots nice. I like a longbow. If I wanted a recurve I would have asked about them. Thanks to those that gave me advice pertaining to what I asked.


Got ya, I will not clutter any more of your threads with my useless experiences.....Good luck to you.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not a longbow guy but I did start my archery journey in 1955 with one, a Hill style Ben Pearson. Loved it. Although I've shot mainly recurves since I was a teenager I do ask to shoot every longbow that crosses my path just for fun. I've not had the priviledge of shooting one of Kegan's Omegas or other offerings yet but hope to someday (Kegan, are you coming to Baltimore?). 

I have a local friend who builds longbows not to sell but for himself and friends or auctions for organizations and I've shot them. They are string follow longbows and they are smooth to shoot and plenty speedy. I'd not hesitate to hunt deer with one of his bows. The last one I shot had redwood cores.

The best R/D longbow I ever shot was a phenolic risered McCulloch Tsunami. That one didn't leave anything on the table.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Not sure about anything beyond ETAR so far this year. I have the wedding, finishing my truck, and paying off my fiancée's car to handle this year first!


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Kegan, what is the Omega? Sounds like it has some fans. Centershot, you are more than welcome to post whatever you like. I was just trying to keep the thread on topic. I have very little experience with longbows so any experience that pertains to longbows is appreciated. At this point I'm not looking for a recurve.....maybe someday, just not today. I wasn't trying to offend people. If someone can show me real world results of a 50 pound lonbow that will shoot a heavy arrow as fast and with more accuracy than a similar style 70 pound longbow I'm all about it. Thanks to all.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I have one of Kegan's Imperials. It is a D shape when strung and has a well proportioned riser.
Definitely much more efficient then any Hill style bow I've ever seen. It flat-out smokes an arrow.

-Grant


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks Grant. Any pictures of the bow?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Here is my review:
http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48796

-Grant


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

That's a nice looking bow. One of the four I've shot quite a bit has limbs that flex back like that when unstrung don't know what it pulls or who made it but it's about the same as the others as far as draw weight. Two are the Schulz bows which are both 74 @ 27" and the other is a Cascade Mountain Longbow that's 80 @ 28". I've also shot the boss' Toelke Super D that's 58 @ 28" and it's a nice bow.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Omegas are the bows I build for a living. As for a 50# bow outshooting a 70# bow, here are some basic comparisons:

A 70# selfbow, of average build, will shoot a 700 gr arrow 150 fps at 28" draw. That's 35 ft-lbs of KE.

A 70# laminated composite straight bow, of average build, will shoot a 700 gr arrow 165 fps at 28" draw. That's 42 ft-lbs of KE.

A 50# laminated composite hybrid, built for performance, will shoot a 500 gr arrow 185 fps at 28" draw. That's 38 ft-lbs of KE.

These numbers are not the end all to beat all for performance, but come from bows I've built and shot myself. I've shot all sorts of longbows as well as all draw weights and these are the actual numbers I've seen. As I said, they're not set in stone but they give you a pretty good idea why so many people suggesting dropping down in bow weight. From my own personal experience, I also noticed an increase in draw length. I went from about 28-29" to 31", which is an additional 12 fps all in itself.

As for the accuracy it's just a matter of personal preference. As I said, there are some guys who shoot really well with heavy bows. For all we know you're another one. However if you're serious about it none of the top barebow archers, all of whom are serious hunters, practices with nearly that much weight. These guys are often producing degrees of accuracy far beyond what the average stickbow shooter can do, and often more than some of the average compound shooters I've seen. At that point it's just like adjusting the holding weight on a compound. How many top compound shooters do you see with bows set at only 10% let off?


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Kegan, thanks for the info. What about a 70# composite laminated hybrid just like the 50# bow you mentioned both shooting say 10gr./# arrows? I would think that if a heavy bow will shoot a 700gr. arrow the same speed as a lighter bow shoots a 500gr. arrow I would prefer they heavier setup. I mainly elk hunt with a bow and if I get lucky and draw a moose tag I'll try and use a bow for that too. Something that I hear a lot is that a lighter weight performance bow will out shoot my heavy Hill style bow. What about 50 vs. 70 with the exact same style bow? I think they would shoot similar speeds but one would be doing it with a heavy arrow that is better suited for bigger animals. Am I wrong?


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## Tradbow Guy (Feb 9, 2007)

Hank said:


> Hint: the key is in the grip.


Must not be to hard to master because Howard Hill said get ahold of it and grip it, which is what most new shooters would do naturally anyways.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MT Kevin said:


> Kegan, thanks for the info. What about a 70# composite laminated hybrid just like the 50# bow you mentioned both shooting say 10gr./# arrows? I would think that if a heavy bow will shoot a 700gr. arrow the same speed as a lighter bow shoots a 500gr. arrow I would prefer they heavier setup. I mainly elk hunt with a bow and if I get lucky and draw a moose tag I'll try and use a bow for that too. Something that I hear a lot is that a lighter weight performance bow will out shoot my heavy Hill style bow. What about 50 vs. 70 with the exact same style bow? I think they would shoot similar speeds but one would be doing it with a heavy arrow that is better suited for bigger animals. Am I wrong?


I think he was showing that there is only 4 ft-lbs KE difference for 20# extra draw weight. As for the needing a 700 gr over 500 gr when the KE is near same is just the old slow v. fast v. heavy v. light. argument; whereas 20 fsp is a lot less speed where 200 grs is a lot more mass - but, the KE is constant. No real answer to that one.

As for bows, there's just a given that at some point, you exceed the tension and compression properties of the materials. In that regard, most perform better in the mid-range. For heavier bows, the extra poundage comes more from just being overbuilt - there's added material that marginally gives less and less back in speed - again, overbuilt. The principle works the same in the lower poundage - bow tends to be overbuilt. 

Mid-range in draw weight and the volume of mass to tension/compression property of the material are better in sync.

The real test to all of this on performance is to check the archer and bow together. Put up a paper plate at your 20 yards and shoot at it. If 80% of your arrows don't make holes in paper (one or two good groups tell you nothing), then the bow needs nothing said about other than you can't make it work. Try that at a lower poundage. If you still cannot, then you know a 30# bow is in order until you can get 80% shots in the paper, and again, groups mean nothing in the calculation. Try 50 arrow practice session - even 25 holes in the plate is telling you maybe on the right track.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MT Kevin said:


> Kegan, thanks for the info. What about a 70# composite laminated hybrid just like the 50# bow you mentioned both shooting say 10gr./# arrows? I would think that if a heavy bow will shoot a 700gr. arrow the same speed as a lighter bow shoots a 500gr. arrow I would prefer they heavier setup. I mainly elk hunt with a bow and if I get lucky and draw a moose tag I'll try and use a bow for that too. Something that I hear a lot is that a lighter weight performance bow will out shoot my heavy Hill style bow. What about 50 vs. 70 with the exact same style bow? I think they would shoot similar speeds but one would be doing it with a heavy arrow that is better suited for bigger animals. Am I wrong?


Kevin 

There is kinda a law of diminishing returns 

But yes a hybrid Like Kegan and others that are that heavy will give you more zip than a conventional D bow 

But you do t see many that heavy because you honestly don't need it 

I've been to a fair amount of shoots and I've shot with a lot of different shooters 

I've shot with a lot of guys pulling 80 pound longbows and the only thing that impressed me was their hard headed ness  

If I'm not mistaken you have a relatively long draw 

If I were you and looking to get the most out of an elk or moose rig at your draw And I wanted to stick with a longbow I would even though you can hoist more get a 65 # hybrid that you could dominate 

With your long draw and 600 to 650 grain arrow there is not a critter you couldn't kill 

What type of shooter are you ? 

Meaning do you hold at anchor ? 

Do you snap shoot ? 

If you are comfortable pulling 80 pounds and holding you should be able to hold 65 for a good long time which helps in many hunting situations 

I like to draw and settle in to my anchor and Being able to draw and hold when a critter steps behind a tree etc has been very useful to me 

I come from heavy recurves 

I am now hunting with a super recurve at 52 pounds that is throwing an arrow like a 60 + pound conventional recurve 

I have a pair of limbs that are 56 pounds that I would hunt bovine with 

Being able to pull that much weight is one thing getting the most out of a hunting bow is another 

Again I am not trying to tell you to switch to a recurve or a hybrid just trying to answer your questions 

Kevin here is a first shot from awhile back 

The purpose was to hold for 15 seconds or so and than make your shot 

If you are shaking when you make the release you are over bowed 

I am only shooting 52 pound here but i can hold that all day  

Nothing that's hard to do but still fun 

Hope this helps


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I savvy that but would like to see apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Exact same bow compared with the only difference being one is 50 and one is 70. I don't know a lot about mathematical equations. All I know is common sense would say that a 700 grain arrow traveling the same speed as a 500 grain arrow would hit harder and penetrate better.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

JParanee, I pull to anchor and hold for a second when I shoot. I've tried the snap shooting and with practice it might work but for now I do better with a solid, consistant anchor.......unless I'm shooting at pigeons with flu flu's, then I tend to snap shoot. I have a 29" draw and shooting the Super D my boss has is like shooting a kids bow. It's 58 @ 28". I have no problem with dropping to 60-65 pounds if the bow will hit as hard as the exact same bow in a 70 model. Thanks for the great discussion so far. I feel like I'm learning some new things.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Just watched the video. Nice shot. I'll have to try that. Thanks again. Like I said I'm not against a recurve but for now I'm interested in the longbow. Someday I would bet I'll own a recurve too. Just figure I'll work on one thing at a time.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MT Kevin said:


> I savvy that but would like to see apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Exact same bow compared with the only difference being one is 50 and one is 70. I don't know a lot about mathematical equations. All I know is common sense would say that a 700 grain arrow traveling the same speed as a 500 grain arrow would hit harder and penetrate better.


For the same speed, yes, that would be true. Hitting harder would have to be the goal.

For the original comparison, draw weight only came into this because of the heavy bow class in a discussion on the comparison based on performance and accuracy. Those two are given up in compromise automatically when you get into the very heavy bow class, as there's no person on this planet who can make up that gap - the bow controls most of the shot at that poundage. 

But, if your comparison is just on hitting harder, then throwing the heaviest the fastest is on board for that.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

There is a point of diminishing returns but it varies with each model.

Back when I shot heavier bows I owned a Morrison Cougar (hybrid) that pulled about 78 pounds at 28.5". That bow shot a 730 gr. arrow in the low 190's, comparable to any lighter bow I owned speed wise so I doubt that bow was past any point of inefficiency. The energy and penetration from that bow was incredible. 

If you compare a straight bow to a hybrid you can drop weight and maintain similar performance. But, if you can shoot the weight than a heavier bow of the same type will increase energy and momentum and max potential penetration. That increase in energy can be used to shoot bigger heads for larger wound channels or for smaller heads for penetration.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I guess I never considered 70 pounds to be a "heavy class" bow. When I started this thread it was intended to figure out the difference in performance between a Toelke Whip and a Toelke Super D. It's my fault for not being more clear and the disscussion has taken a few turns but I think it's productive so far.


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

Just wanted to say I agree with looking into Omega bows. Fast, affordable, bomb proof, and life time warranty. For the price, just can't beat it! I actually just came back inside from shooting the Delta model. Fun bow!


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I just came in too. Broke an arrow, first one I've broken with the longbow. Had a baseball on top of my block target at 20 yards. First shot I hit it and it flipped the arrow into the ground breaking it in half. I will take a look at Omega bows. You guys seem very high on them.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Kevin 

I too am interested in what a heavy + 70 pound hybrid can do 

Problem is you just don't see them that much 

As limbs have advanced people are dropping weight and getting the same energy 

I would love to see a CH pulling 70 + pounds and even thought of ordering a set of 65 pound Hex 7's for a possible up coming Buffalo hunt (Water Buffalo) 

But I'm so impressed with what my 55/56 pound limbs can do I know with a well tuned arrow and a Simmons Interceptor it would be just fine and I can shoot it so much better 



Sorry to talk of the recurves but I'm a curve nut 

Just because I don't shoot longbows and the last one I sold was my 73 # Monarch that does not mean I don't know about them 

I've seen and shot most of the top hybrids 

Centaur 

Omega 

Border 

Black Swan 

Etc 

Here are some videos showing some of them and their owners


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for the videos. I just can't fall in love with the looks of a hybrid or takedown bow. I want a one piece bow with great looking wood. I think I figured out how to upload pictures from my phone. Had to go to Tinypic.









My bow and what I think is a decent accuracy at 20 yards.









Close up of 4 arrows.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I was shooting for center of the lungs so it was a couple inches high and had one fly a bit to the right but I'm happy with it for a month and a half of longbow shooting under my belt. By hunting season I plan on being much better.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Nice looking bow and good shooting


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## meatCKR (Sep 29, 2011)

Wow! Your Schulz bow looks amazing! Beautiful Lines. I'll throw four names at you. You should check these out as well. JD Berry - JD can talk to you all day about limb design. Many of his fans say his bows have some special MoJo in them. Steve Turay of Northern Mist Longbows - I have had a Baraga. Absolutely amazing bow. Word is Steve does an amazing job in tillering a bow for your exact draw length and poundage. Nate Steele of Bama Bows knows how to build a classic ASL - He can also make one with a carbon sleeve take down that is rock solid. Brian McBroom make some absolutely beautiful string follow Hill Bows - He too makes a carbon sleeve take down. I am sure any of these bowyers can talk to you about limb design and the pros and cons of each design. Me - I prefer a narrow, deep cored limb that is trapped. Just seems to be rock solid. To go back to your original question, I have had a Whip. It was a great bow but I prefer the Super D. The Super D does not give up much in the performance department and is just buttery smooth and quieter than the whip - which is hard to believe since the Whip is whisper quiet.


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## Tradbow Guy (Feb 9, 2007)

MT Kevin said:


> Thanks for the videos. I just can't fall in love with the looks of a hybrid or takedown bow. I want a one piece bow with great looking wood. I think I figured out how to upload pictures from my phone. Had to go to Tinypic.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont like the looks of takedown longbows either. Here is my Omega Imperial from kegan. It is 43# at my DL and I am currently shooting a 540 grain arrow out of it.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks guys. I'm pretty fond of it. My boss brought down 4 bows for me to shoot since I'd never shot a lonbow before. He told me to figure out which one I liked and it's mine. I liked this bow best. Not a scratch on it either. The serving wasn't even worn at the knock point. It is now! It's a lot different than compounds which I've been shooting since I was 14. I was always blessed with above average strength and done phsical work all my life. I started out with a 70 pound Hoyt Super Slam at 14. There was a guy at the archery shop that had a 90 pound wheel bow and I could shoot it at 14, had to cheat by pulling down. My 70 pound bow wasn't bad. I could pull it straight back and steady. I don't shoot this longbow to prove my "manliness". I'm almost 37 and already lived through the chest beating phase of my life. I shoot this bow because I enjoy it plain and simple. meatCKR, thank you for the suggestions. I'll check them out. I've been looking at the Northern Mist site and they look nice. Haven't looked at the others but I will. Tradbow Guy, that's a good looking bow. Looks like a workhorse.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from.

If you want to shoot a 70# bow, go ahead. When I ordered my 70# predator, Ron Pittsley explained to me that it wasn't a common thing, and he had nothing available at that draw weight because with bows these days, it just wasn't necessary. Still, it was what I wanted. I got a 70# recurve, loved the feel, how it slammed an arrow.

Later, I got lighter, then lighter, then lighter, and lighter, And one more time. Still, I wouldn't give up that bazooka. I just get a kick out of it.

If, at some point, you decide that you want to shoot more accurately, a lighter bow opens training opportunity quite a bit, but it is an option, not a mandate.

Enjoy it either way. While it isn't what I would ask for, a 70# Omega sounds like a pretty cool thing from a novelty aspect. Why? Just because  I like the idea of owning a .50 BMG. I just have neither the means, nor the use for one. But exploding a 55 gallon drum from way out there is definitely a warm fuzzy feeling.


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## JimPic (Apr 8, 2003)

Beautiful bow. I'm partial to the Hill's and Hill-style bows myself


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MT Kevin,

You asked me about a 50# bow shooting as hard as your 70# straight bow. That's what I gave you. Comparing a 50# hybrid to a 70# hybrid, yes, of course you're going to see gains in power. Depending on the model it might be a linear increase or not. Can't say for sure. Realistically though, you'll be seeing something around 54 ft-lbs of KE out of a 70# hybrid.

If those photos are how ALL of your groups are, then keep at the heavy stuff. Give paper a try some time though, I know it's boring but if you can grind through it you'll have a good indication of shooting level, which as I said, might be already above average if your photos are your norm.

Just a heads up though, I don't build over 55# on my bows anymore, sorry. Plenty of other bowyers will, though.


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## AReric (Mar 6, 2010)

Nice bow Kevin! I've really become partial to Hill-style bows. I actually don't like a grip locator, or any kind of palm swell anymore. I have no trouble getting a repeatable grip on the bow.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Kegan, that's how MOST of my groups are. I'm not a machine and sometimes I don't have my mind in the right place. A lot of times my boss is shooting with me and we're talking hounds or bird dogs or elk hunting. There are holes all over that target. Some from him, some from me, and some from the managers kid who is autistic that I let shoot whenever he asks. I bought a new glove and a tab so I've been swithching between those and split finger and 3 under. Sometimes I just disregard the paper and shoot concentrating on form instead of the target. That paper has lived through bare shaft tuning also. That is not my best group or my worst group. It is like I said a decent group that I am happy with. When I can group like that every time I'll move back a little farther. I thought my original question was asking to compare limb style not poundage but I must have been unclear. No big deal. I'm not seeking anyone's approval and this isn't a who's right debate. Thanks for the info and good luck in your bow business. Hope you always enjoy your bows as much as I enjoy this one.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Kevin, your original post seem to be looking for differences in performance, and draw weight can have a big impact on that. If a fellow is over bowed, he'll be collapsing or short drawing and not getting as much as the bow has to offer. That clearly doesn't seem to apply to you.

At this point you're really at a point of personal discretion. You're not really handicapped by the bow you're shooting, and at that weight you're not particularly under-powered for really big game. A different limb style might offer a bit less shock and a bit more speed, but whether those actually matter (or are even that notable) to you are a matter of personal preference.

If, however, you were badly overbowed, collapsing and spraying arrows, you'd see a far bigger difference in your shooting dropping to a lighter, faster hybrid. Honestly, something like 99% of the folks who come asking questions when starting off with heavy bows are in that boat. So that's why we ask. We're just trying to help.

Have fun.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Kegan,

Wondering what made you decide to not builder highher than 55#.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks Kegan. I'm just having a lot of fun with this bow and trying to learn all I can about traditional archery. I shot the 58# Super D again last night. It is definitely way easier to hold for a long time. It's a shooter too but I can't say I shoot it any better than my Schulz. If my #1 use was shooting targets and stump shooting I might try a 55 pound bow. There has been a lot of big game killed with that weight too according to what I've read. At this point in my life my main use for a bow is elk huntuing and I'm more confident in the ability of a heavy bow throwing a heavy arrow. Someday my opinion might change. Thanks for your input here. Take care.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Kevin 

When you can handle the weight more energy is never a bad thing  

What BH you thinking off ? 

I'm still real curious myself what a fast hybrid or super curve could put out at 70 plus pounds


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I would be curious to see the #'s on a 70# performance bow too. I ordered some Tusker 250 grain screw ins to try. I haven't sharpened them up yet. Just been shooting them as practice heads. I'll sharpen them up before season. I've never messed with single bevel 2 blade heads so I'll try a few different ones. I have 100 & 125 adapters so I can glue heads on them and use them on carbon. I'll probable try some eclipse heads, heard good things about them. Which heads have you had good luck with? Oh.....I shot a pigeon out of the air today too. Coolest thing I've ever done with a bow!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Used Eskimos for years than went to Snuffers for years than I went to Wensel Woodsman's for many years 

This past year I was still shooting Woodsmans 

Gotta quiver full of Simmons Tree Sharks and Interceptors......gonna give them a try this year


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Any if them will work if they're sharp and they get put through the vitals. All the heads you mentioned have a proven track record. I bet they work great. Shooting my 74# compound I can blow any head I want through a deer. With this longbow I'm going to stick to a 2 blade head with a less severe blade angle than what I shoot out of my compound. I'll try a few just because that's my nature. It'll be fun trying to find the one I like best. I know with my compound I usually have 2 or 3 different heads in my quiver.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MT Kevin, with the punch you have behind that bow, look into something like Simmons or Centaur. Blood trails like expandables but the penetration of a two blade. If you can get used to sharpening a concave blade, I think you'd really like the performance.

BarneySlayer, for several of the models it was to help guarantee the lifetime warranty is truly life time. For a couple other moels it was to avoid hassles that seems to arise when selling heavy bows (extra time, money, and headaches). It has been suggested before that I offer at least one model in a heavier weight though, so I may revisit it later in perhaps an extra heavy option for the Imperial.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

I'll look into those Kegan, thanks. My boss has some of the 3 blade snuffers and some grizzly 2 blades that I'll shoot into my Rhinehart to get an idea of accuracy and penetration. I'll be trying different broadheads all summer until I figure out which one or ones I'll use this fall. Bear and turkey season both open in 3 weeks so at least I'll have an excuse to take the bow for a walk.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Broadheads don't, or shouldn't, change accuracy with our rigs. They're slow enough not to cause wind planning issues like a compound. Just tune your arrows and pick a broadhead that suits you. Snuffers would be another good choice- lots of blood.

With the punch you have with your bow, you can go to the bigger heads and still get good penetration.


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## JRB623 (Dec 17, 2012)

I know this is an older thread, but I had to come out of my "lurking only" status for this one. Last year I shot a bow under 60#, all 3D and hunting season. I've always shot heavy bows and anything else just feels like a toy. I had plenty of wins at that lower draw weight, but I also had inconsistencies aries from it as well. My release was fine, but I'd rush through my shooting process. The lower weights don't provide the feedback I need. My lightest bow now is 60# at my draw. My main bows are 70 & 71#. If heavy feels good and you're accurate stick with it. Don't slip on practice time or you'll definitely know it the next time you have to shoot over 100 arrows with little rest in between. These forums end up with a bunch of opinions shrouded as facts. II also prefer Hill style bows over any other. I've owned just about every style out there and the Hill is what feels best to me. I do cheat a little and run slightly skinnier strings. It speeds them up to most r/d speeds. 
On broadheads- Simmons treesharks will plane out of a trad bow. I've seen it and experienced it more than once. At a 20 yard maximum they do alright. At 30 they definitely plane. They're also a super wide head and to be expected. 
Just because most shoot hybrids at low weights doesn't mean you should or have to. I also shoot a 9gpp arrow with no shock, just a little thump in the grip is all I feel. Like already stated, the trick to Hill style bows is in the grip.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JRB623 said:


> On broadheads- Simmons treesharks will plane out of a trad bow. I've seen it and experienced it more than once. At a 20 yard maximum they do alright. At 30 they definitely plane. They're also a super wide head and to be expected.
> Just because most shoot hybrids at low weights doesn't mean you should or have to. I also shoot a 9gpp arrow with no shock, just a little thump in the grip is all I feel. Like already stated, the trick to Hill style bows is in the grip.


Just because you can't tune well enough to get a Tree Shark to fly well doesn't mean the OP can't, either.


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## JRB623 (Dec 17, 2012)

kegan said:


> Just because you can't tune well enough to get a Tree Shark to fly well doesn't mean the OP can't, either.


Nope, I guess I never learned how to tune with over 20 years in archery. Neither has my friend with the same time in as well. I did actually mean the interceptor though. Since you seem to know everything, I'm sure you picked up on that


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JRB623 said:


> Nope, I guess I never learned how to tune with over 20 years in archery. Neither has my friend with the same time in as well. I did actually mean the interceptor though. Since you seem to know everything, I'm sure you picked up on that


Are you serious? You make a very broad statement about a product that doesn't work for you and act like it's fact- yet I'm the know it all?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have not found Treesharks or especially Interceptors to wind plane at the speeds we are pushing them with single strings as long as I am tuned well 

When you start approaching compound or crossbow speeds everything gets a bit more touchy


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## JRB623 (Dec 17, 2012)

kegan said:


> Are you serious? You make a very broad statement about a product that doesn't work for you and act like it's fact- yet I'm the know it all?


It wasn't a broad statement. It's just what I've seen from multiple set ups and different shooters. I never insulted anyone or their ability, unlike you. So maybe your not so much a know it all but just therun of the mill archerytalk douchebag. You also made a hypocritical post almost from the start. You claim Hill style bows aren't as good as the R/D bows you sell. That was a broad statement about a manufacturer or manufacturers. I'm sure in your superior experience that you've shot every single hill style bow out there. The draw weight issue is and always will be a debate, so nothing new there.
Like I said before, opinions trying to be passed as a fact. Just because you post as much as possible on archerytalk doesn't make you an expert. 

The interceptor statement I made was my opinion just to clear that up. It's just what I've seen. But according to our resident master archer, neither me or my friend with a combined 40+ years in archery can tune for ****. All the tournament wins every year between us must be a fluke. All the game taken are an accident as well. 

Back to you Kegan, for your expert insight and quippy comebacks


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Run of the mill Archerytalk douchebag? That's a healthy means of debate, and definitely shows that you are of "superior" intellect.

Your argument is that the best straight limbed bows will shoot as fast as D/R bows. Which hybrids though? If the best straight limbed bows could shoot as fast as the best hybrids, there would be no need for the hybrids. Someone, at some point, somewhere, would have quantitative evidence to support that. You are comparing the best straight limbed bow to the run of the mill D/R bows. That proves nothing other than you get what you pay for, and since that isn't what you're debating, it's a rather meaningless assertion in this context.

Likewise, if Simmons were so unstable, no one would shoot them- and certainly not pay $10 a head. It's simple economics. Are they more touchy than a narrow bladed head? Sure, it's a simple draw back to the design. However, to simply offer that "they wind plane" without elaborating on any further details accomplishes nothing. I can say that Fords break. Well, sure, but what are the parameters for that assertion? After how many miles? Under what conditions of use and maintenance? With what type of driver? It's the same with the broadheads. Do they wind plane? Yes, if your tune is imperfect and/or you flub a shot. Do they windplane under all conditions? Of course not.

You came here to make some very resolute opinions and were ready to offer them as indisputable fact. Traditional archery is a small field. It's not hard to be a big fish in a small pond. Considering the over all lack of solid information available to the average archer, it's not hard to rack up wins if the competition consists of the "average" traditional shooter. It's not hard to kill animals, either. You can do it with your car. What's that prove? Trying to offer your "40+ years of combined experience" accomplishes nothing either. Twenty years of just doing something doesn't make you an expert or it right. It's like saying you have a combined 40+ year of driving without a seatbelt, chain smoking, or drinking Mountain Dew. Just because you and a friend have done it for a while doesn't make it right, or even remotely a good idea.

If you have any solid information to support your opinions, please offer them. There's still a chance to turn this into a healthy debate. We're here to learn and I'm perfectly ok admitting I'm wrong. However you need to offer more than just circumstantial anecdotes and personal attacks. You claim to be smarter than I am, so act like it.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Wow, this thread took another unexpected turn. Debate is great but let's not make it a pissing match. It is windy where I live so planing can have as much to do with weather conditions as it does with bow tune. With my compound I shot compact heads with Blazer vanes to help with lessening the effects of wind on the arrow. A couple years ago I broke down and tried some mechanicals and the results were impressive both in shooting accuracy and performance on deer, antelope, black bear, and turkey. Heck of a change for me going from a 340 IBO compound with all the bells and whistles shooting micro diameter carbons with mechanical heads to a longbow. I'm having fun though. Been enjoying the simplicity of it. So far I haven't tried hunting big game with it but that will come. Two rabbits, two pigeons, and two gophers to it's credit so far. If you guys want a challenge try gopher hunting with your stick bows. They're about the size of a small Red Bull can and a lot of times all you can see is their head and that's about the size of a golf ball. I've had a lot of near misses and if they are 30 yards or further they duck the arrow. It's a lot of fun!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MT Kevin said:


> Wow, this thread took another unexpected turn. Debate is great but let's not make it a pissing match. It is windy where I live so planing can have as much to do with weather conditions as it does with bow tune. With my compound I shot compact heads with Blazer vanes to help with lessening the effects of wind on the arrow. A couple years ago I broke down and tried some mechanicals and the results were impressive both in shooting accuracy and performance on deer, antelope, black bear, and turkey. Heck of a change for me going from a 340 IBO compound with all the bells and whistles shooting micro diameter carbons with mechanical heads to a longbow. I'm having fun though. Been enjoying the simplicity of it. So far I haven't tried hunting big game with it but that will come. Two rabbits, two pigeons, and two gophers to it's credit so far. If you guys want a challenge try gopher hunting with your stick bows. They're about the size of a small Red Bull can and a lot of times all you can see is their head and that's about the size of a golf ball. I've had a lot of near misses and if they are 30 yards or further they duck the arrow. It's a lot of fun!


I apologize for adding to the off-color thread derailment. It's great to hear you're enjoying yourself, and if you'd like to try a Simmons without buying a full pack, send me a PM. I could send one for you to try if you're interested in them.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Good looking rig and you are correct, shooting a heavier arrow traveling the same speed will hit harder and penetrate better, especially on bigger game like out west. If you are happy with your rig keep shooting it. I keep an open mind and also ask to shoot every bow in my weight range that crosses my path, longbow or recurve. I've learned a lot about what I like and don't like shooting a bow for the last 60 years.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

The evolution of a conversation is a good thing. Just don't want people getting bent out of shape and turning it into a fight.


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## JRB623 (Dec 17, 2012)

Sorry about the derailment MTKevin. I love groundhog hunting with longbows. The real challenge is downing one before he makes it back to a hole. They pick up movement better than any whitetail I've encountered and they tough critters. Prairie dog hunting would be fun.

We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that Kegan.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JRB623 said:


> We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that Kegan.


Hey, that works for me!


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

Prarie dog hunting with a longbow is fun. Haven't connected yet but I've come close. Our groundhogs are called rockchucks and they den in cliffs and rocks. I was with my buddy the other day and he was trying to fill his turkey tag with his recurve. He missed twice and we were stump shooting our way back to the truck and saw a couple rockchucks at about 60 yards. He shot high and hit the cliff ruining an arrow. I hit about 6 inches low with a Woodsmen tipped arrow smacking the rocks. Everything exploded and I was out an arrow and broadhead lol. We're going to set up an archery golf course on his grandmas ranch this summer. We've been shooting long distances, pick a clump of grass or molehill at 200 or so yards and shoot. Whoever is farthest away gets to shoot first just like golf until we hit the target. We're going to refine it and have marked spots to "tee off" and have a tire you have to shoot through to finish the round. All our friends shoot compounds so we'll be the only two shooting stick bows so we might have to set it up with a handicap to even the field. It'll be fun.


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