# V3 tuning issues.



## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Here’s a much much stiffer arrow


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

That pic shows your rest in full downward position. The little arrow mark is stationary and the hashmarks move with the rest.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Elkdreamer21 said:


> That pic shows your rest in full downward position. The little arrow mark is stationary and the hashmarks move with the rest.


Yeah, I guess I worded it differently, meaning the arrow is at the maximum top limit rest full down.


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

I`m not even close to an expert. Hope one of the great guys here stops by to help.

My v3 paper tuned nicely with a 30 inch 300 spine with 125gr point at 490gr total. You have way more weight out front.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

I put the test back to near zero, and here is an Easton HEXX 400 at 335gr











Maybe the Nexxus Infinity 350 arrows just don’t work for this bow. The various software programs have them as optimum spine. 

But … the super stiff FMJ and the much weaker HEXX each fly better.


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

Check cam axle tightness. The screws must be just barely snug, not tightened or the bearings get pinched that adds resistance to cam. There's some gunk in the screws but if you take them out often, replace with thread locker so you don't lose one.

Your arrow seems fine by the app, this shouldn't be a spine issue. How good is the fit on the nockturnal? Some of those have given me lot of trouble. Doesn't match the symptoms really but try turning the nocks and see if the tear changes.

How I've done vertical adjustment on V3 and have had great success:

Return the rest to berger hole. Remove nock sets and make only a d-loop on string, roughly in the middle of it. Adjust vertical by screwing the d-loop around the string and it threads on the serving. Vertical adjustment is far more sensitive to nock point than rest, let's see where that nocking point ends up.

When you have the vertical tuned, you can pull one side of the d-loop aside, tie a nocking point leaving a little gap. Repeat on the other side.


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

Shooter Mike said:


> I put the test back to near zero, and here is an Easton HEXX 400 at 335gr
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe the nockturnals are a fault afterall. How bad is the Nexxus without touching any adjustment?


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

smau990 said:


> Maybe the nockturnals are a fault afterall. How bad is the Nexxus without touching any adjustment?


The tear is much bigger without any adjustment. 

I’ll take out the nockturnals and try with regular nocks. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

smau990 said:


> Maybe the nockturnals are a fault afterall. How bad is the Nexxus without touching any adjustment?


I was able to tinker a little bit this morning, before leaving for work. Here is the 26 inch bare shaft Nexxus with and without nockturnals, And fairly normal rest settings. Remarkable difference, I think.


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

Shooter Mike said:


> I was able to tinker a little bit this morning, before leaving for work. Here is the 26 inch bare shaft Nexxus with and without nockturnals, And fairly normal rest settings. Remarkable difference, I think.


Looks a lot like what I've experienced. If you take 3 shafts with nockturnals, are the tears all in same direction? If you rotate the nock in the shaft, does the direction of the tear change?

I've yet to try taking just half a dozen new shafts with identical nockturnals on all of them and bare shaft nock tune them. I wanted to do that with 4mm Axis but the shaft inner diameters were inconsistent, some the nock was slightly loose and others it wouldn't stay in at all, bought another pack of Nocturnal G-nocks and Alternativess sent me some age old batch with different external shape and those were extremely tight fit. 

Fed up with the componentry I ordered BE Rampages to continue with. I'm contemplating if I should buy more Nockturnals or try something else instead. Soon I'm at point where firenocks would've been cheaper despite the initial cost.


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## BassinBowhunter (May 6, 2011)

It has been talked about here a few times, but there was an interview with one of the Mathews engineers who says that the V3's prefer a weaker spine than you would think. 

If your paper tear is different with the nocturnals either your nock fit is too tight either on the string or between the d loop knots, or that extra 15-20 grains on the back end of the arrow is stiffening it up too much.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

BassinBowhunter said:


> It has been talked about here a few times, but there was an interview with one of the Mathews engineers who says that the V3's prefer a weaker spine than you would think.
> 
> If your paper tear is different with the nocturnals either your nock fit is too tight either on the string or between the d loop knots, or that extra 15-20 grains on the back end of the arrow is stiffening it up too much.


The tied nocks and d-loop have been changed at least 6 or 7 times with moving the loop up and down the string. Some of the nocks fit the shafts loosely. All of the nocks seem to have a “normal” fit on the string. 

Yeah, I did see that video with the Mathews engineer saying this bow likes a weaker spine. 

I feel like a 28” arrow with 200gr up front on a 60lb bow should be perfect. The above screen shot of qSpine is with the bow at 58lbs. Here is this setup at 60.8 lbs, which is where the bow is currently set:









I think this mornings paper holes told me a lot about the Nockturnals. 

I leave for Ohio tomorrow morning after work, and so it’ll be Tuesday before I can tinker with this again. 

Thinking about how the Nockturnals fit on the string and how they’re activated, I now realize how it is that they can affect arrow flight. 

When I was trying to tune the FMJ T-64’s in this bow I had low nock tears too, but wrenched the rest until I achieved what I wanted to, and didn’t pay much attention to how high or low the rest was. I switched out rests yesterday, because I wanted to try something different with this setup, and that’s what got me to really looking at why the rest required such extreme settings.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

FWIW, I shoot my V3 31 with 27.5” FMJ 5mm and 100gr tips, 460 total gr 340 spine. I’m shooting 70lb mods maxed pulling just over 71lb.
Rest is centered and nock is straight off rest.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention: I tried swapping mods and installed the 65lb mods on this bow and it made zero difference in the paper tears. Those mods maxed out the bow at 66.7lbs. So a 6lb difference made zero difference on paper tear. I should have probably realized at that point, this was likely not a spine issue.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

Put 100gr out front and see how it does


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

suzukigs750ez said:


> Put 100gr out front and see how it does


Thanks for the suggestion. I tried that early on, with no change.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

I say reset your nock point to center and arrow rest as well. Don’t try your super heavy arrow and shoot a 300-340 spine with 100gr out front. Make sure form is good, shoot fletched at 5 yards. How’s it look? Make sure release is perfect. Adjust from there. Get that bullet hole. Then shoot fletched and bare together not through paper. Adjust accordingly. Then shoot fletched and broadhead. Are you close?


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

suzukigs750ez said:


> I say reset your nock point to center and arrow rest as well. Don’t try your super heavy arrow and shoot a 300-340 spine with 100gr out front. Make sure form is good, shoot fletched at 5 yards. How’s it look? Make sure release is perfect. Adjust from there. Get that bullet hole. Then shoot fletched and bare together not through paper. Adjust accordingly. Then shoot fletched and broadhead. Are you close?


I've already done all of that. These tears are at 4 yards. 

Judging this mornings paper tears, the Nockturnals seem to be the consistent factor. With the Easton FMJ T-64's, I had nock low tears when trying to set them up. I gave up on them. Shooting them again last night, but with g-nocks in them, they shot nock high left, with the rest a few turns down. That should have been an indicator to me that the nocks are the issue. The light weight Hexx 400's tear perfectly through paper. The Nexxus bare shaft with Nockturnal is low tear. Without, it's very close and is a smidge low right. the rest is closer to the riser than 13/64", so moving it back to zero should correct the right tear. And one small vertical adjustment should remedy the low tear. 

So now the question is, what is it about the Nockturnals that cause such an obnoxious tear?


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

What do they weight vs the other ones?


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

FWIW, it is my understanding and experience with paper tuning that it should be done at three different distances. 2 yards, 4 yards, and 6 yards. 
2 yards tells you center shot and timing issues. 
4 yards tells you arrow spine, tip weight, and FOC issues. 
6 yards tells you arrow drag issues. 

Here's a tip page on the Prime website, that Dave Cousins did. https://www.g5prime.com/expert-tips-paper-tuning-bow/


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

suzukigs750ez said:


> What do they weight vs the other ones?


14gr, whereas the g-nocks weight 9gr. Not enough to make that much of a tear difference that can't be tuned out.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

suzukigs750ez said:


> What do they weight vs the other ones?


14gr. The g-nocks are 9 gr. Not enough to make that significant of a difference, and the tip weight has been altered with no change in tears, so that would rule out a nock weight issue too.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

Break down your form? Are you confident in your release, face pressure, etc?


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

suzukigs750ez said:


> Break down your form? Are you confident in your release, face pressure, etc?


Yeah I’m good on that. 30 years of shooting. Former competitive shooter. Notice the difference in tears between Nockturnal and no Nockturnal? I’m not sure a form flaw would have such a drastic presentation on a 4 yard paper tear.


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## Zbinau (Nov 28, 2020)

I had the same exact problem with my V3 at 60lbs. I started paper tuning had the same issue with 340 spine shafts. I bumped up to 400 spine shafts and shot a bullet hole first time once I reset everything. Then during the summer I switched to 70lbs for and with 300 spine arrows and had the same exact tear I had with 340 spine at 60 lbs. So I grabbed my 340 spine arrows that I made originally and those tuned perfectly. So the V3 definitely likes a little weaker shaft.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

Yup. I can say my bow like the 340 @ 70. I’m sure someone more experienced will be by, I’m out of ideas lol


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

BassinBowhunter said:


> It has been talked about here a few times, but there was an interview with one of the Mathews engineers who says that the V3's prefer a weaker spine than you would think.
> 
> If your paper tear is different with the nocturnals either your nock fit is too tight either on the string or between the d loop knots, or that extra 15-20 grains on the back end of the arrow is stiffening it up too much.


Heard the same, never confirmed anywhere. More often I think it's because spine tables/calculators are unclear about how arrow length is measured. If there's 1.5" of steel glued inside shaft that section isn't bending in context of stability that question dynamic spine really is.


Shooter Mike said:


> FWIW, it is my understanding and experience with paper tuning that it should be done at three different distances. 2 yards, 4 yards, and 6 yards.
> 2 yards tells you center shot and timing issues.
> 4 yards tells you arrow spine, tip weight, and FOC issues.
> 6 yards tells you arrow drag issues.
> ...


Not sure if 6yd over 4yd tells anything about fletching if you shoot bare shafts.. Also repeat of spine vs left right tear on compound with mechanical release. There is no connection. So really just go to 6-8yd with paper or find the worst possible distance and work from there. Then move to BS or BH tuning. 

My current reasonably well working setup has 300 spine 28.5” Carnivore, 60gr insert, 150gr point and 21gr of vanes at 65-66#. These shoot good with stock nocks but with nockturnals the broadheads fly to random directions
Current experiment is 4mm Axis 300 at 27.5” 125+125gr point. I’ve found two Nockturnal G-nocks out of 6 that launch the arrow straight, one broken and three send any arrow sideways. Next step is I’ll screw the limbs 1/2 turn each direction and see if I can get the tear smaller.

I have nasty suspicion that high letoff and low brace height play a part in how unnecessarily hard it is to have V3 shoot perfectly.


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## BassinBowhunter (May 6, 2011)

smau990 said:


> Heard the same, never confirmed anywhere. More often I think it's because spine tables/calculators are unclear about how arrow length is measured. If there's 1.5" of steel glued inside shaft that section isn't bending in context of stability that question dynamic spine really is.


If you are referring to confirming the V3 liking a weak spine, here is the video. They talking about spine at the 11:48 mark.

But the spine you are shooting with insert weight, spine, and tip weight should be good. It sounds like the nock fit between the d loop knots is too tight for the nockturnals. I shoot nockturnals out of my V3 with no change in point of impact from my stock nocks.


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## suzukigs750ez (Jun 3, 2021)

BassinBowhunter said:


> If you are referring to confirming the V3 liking a weak spine, here is the video. They talking about spine at the 11:48 mark.
> 
> But the spine you are shooting with insert weight, spine, and tip weight should be good. It sounds like the nock fit between the d loop knots is too tight for the nockturnals. I shoot nockturnals out of my V3 with no change in point of impact from my stock nocks.


Good point, I never thought about that. Pinch from your d loop or tight fitting nock on serving.


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

BassinBowhunter said:


> If you are referring to confirming the V3 liking a weak spine, here is the video. They talking about spine at the 11:48 mark.
> 
> But the spine you are shooting with insert weight, spine, and tip weight should be good. It sounds like the nock fit between the d loop knots is too tight for the nockturnals. I shoot nockturnals out of my V3 with no change in point of impact from my stock nocks.


I guess the draw force curve that stacks up late in the cycle could cause that. Would be interesting to see some 10k fps hi res video of the launch.

So far tightest nock has been Beiter H pin nock but it has the relief cuts for nock sets. Geniuses at Feradyne apparently changed the thickness of the nock between two serieses of nockturnals. Also for some reason Easton 4mm pins are too loose in Easton 4mm shafts (Like 7 out of 12) which makes perfect sense so I'd need to glue the pins to use them


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

I just got home from work, and need to pack to leave for Ohio, but if I get a few minutes this morning I’m gonna re-tie the nock set to give some more play, and try again. The nock set has been re-done at least 6-10 times while trying different things to fix this. But … maybe this bow needs more space above and below the nock, with its steep string angle with a 27” ATA.


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## Akeley Run Archer (Jun 27, 2021)

I shoot a vxr 31.5 at 26.5draw length I experienced same nock low tears at initial setup… figured out it was due to nock pinch in my nock set… after i took care of that issue i can now shoot the same arrow in a 250 300 and 340 spine tearing bullet holes in paper


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## Brianc86 (Nov 25, 2018)

Akeley Run Archer said:


> I shoot a vxr 31.5 at 26.5draw length I experienced same nock low tears at initial setup… figured out it was due to nock pinch in my nock set… after i took care of that issue i can now shoot the same arrow in a 250 300 and 340 spine tearing bullet holes in paper


V3 27” here at 26.5” draw. String angle is rough, need to definitely leave room for nock pinch, I suggest tying in soft knots inside the loop to prevent the d loop from eventually sliding ( which it will 100%). Couple under over knots and you are golden


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Akeley Run Archer said:


> I shoot a vxr 31.5 at 26.5draw length I experienced same nock low tears at initial setup… figured out it was due to nock pinch in my nock set… after i took care of that issue i can now shoot the same arrow in a 250 300 and 340 spine tearing bullet holes in paper


I investigated that too, and it isn’t the issue. Seems only one brand of arrow is causing the low tears. At current settings, I get a nock high tear with other arrows. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

And I verified proper nock fit on my draw board 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Akeley Run Archer (Jun 27, 2021)

Im running gold tip shafts with the gto nock for what its worth ive had good tunes with pierce, ultralights and x cutters in the vxr


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

Brianc86 said:


> V3 27” here at 26.5” draw. String angle is rough, need to definitely leave room for nock pinch, I suggest tying in soft knots inside the loop to prevent the d loop from eventually sliding ( which it will 100%). Couple under over knots and you are golden


I thought we were supposed to tie nock knots inside d loop all the time.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

I talked with Nexxus and it is their recommendation that I use a .300 spine with my setup and desired up front weight. I will try that and report back once I have the arrows. 

That said, I did take the 350 spine down to 26” and have shot it with a 100gr tip on the 75gr outsert and didn’t appreciate any improvement. 

The 300 spine shows very very stiff. But if it works who cares, right? I hope it does. These arrows are quite durable from what I’ve seen. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

I shoot the 300 spine. I never thought they were stiff. But all I have ever shot.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Elkdreamer21 said:


> I shoot the 300 spine. I never thought they were stiff. But all I have ever shot.


What shaft length? I’m a 27” draw. 

I went with the 350’s because they show they spine out right for my setup on both qSpine and AA. 

Either way, I eagerly await the 300’s and hope that’s the cure. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Brianc86 (Nov 25, 2018)

Elkdreamer21 said:


> I thought we were supposed to tie nock knots inside d loop all the time.



should be the norm, many shops do not mess with it. Instead they just loosen and slide the d loop to tune 🤣😂 time is money


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

Shafts are expensive right now. I am a 30 inch draw and dont like the head behind my hand so I`m at 31 inch valley of nock to end of carbon. I am factory insert with 125 gr kudo.


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

Brianc86 said:


> should be the norm, many shops do not mess with it. Instead they just loosen and slide the d loop to tune 🤣😂 time is money


Dang. This is why I just bought a press and doing it myself from here on out. If I screw up a string its only like $125. I hate the shops not doing us justice.


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## Akeley Run Archer (Jun 27, 2021)

For what its worth ive also noticed that different release aids change my tune as far as vertical tear goes because of how much pressure is distributed between the top and bottom cam … with a tru ball hbc my arrow sits slightly nock high to bullet hole with an ultraview hinge my arrow sits dead level to bullet hole tear… im guessing the point of the hook being different causes me to pull more on one cam versus the other with the hbc


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

So I dropped draw weight by 2 lbs and nock tuned the arrows. 3 out of the 10 that arrows that are cut to 26” nock tuned acceptably. 3 of the 10 still have 1” paper tears regardless of nock tune. I spine indexed the shafts. Some have as little as 0.002” variance, others have as much as 0.008” variance. Nock fit at the nock end of the shaft is loose on some, tighter on others. When I shortened the shafts to 26”, I cut from the nock end since the outserts were epoxied in the front. This provided a uniform nock fit for “most” of the shafts. 

Nexxus has recommended a .300 spine, but at this point I’m not confident that a stiffer spine will give me what I’m looking for, and based off of what I have experienced so far it would seem that I’ll need a few dozen to find a set of shafts that will fly right. 

As for “my” nock tuning technique, I go in 1/4 turns, and if that doesn’t work I keep going but in 1/8 turns. So if after 12 we’ll executed shots I have egregious tears, I mark the shafts as “garbage”. 

Anything I might be missing? 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Elkdreamer21 (Oct 24, 2021)

If it helps I have a couple 300 spine I could send you. They are 29 3/4 inch. You could pull the inserts and cut to your desired length. Just an Idea that dont cost much.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Elkdreamer21 said:


> If it helps I have a couple 300 spine I could send you. They are 29 3/4 inch. You could pull the inserts and cut to your desired length. Just an Idea that dont cost much.


Very kind of you. Nexxus has sent me a sample pack of a few 300 spine. Just waiting on them to arrive. 

I tinkered more with the 400 spine today. 

Here’s the results of nearly identical arrows. 



















Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

So I had some GT Airstrikes arrive today. They’re 400’s so I’m planning to use them with my Triax, but I thought I’d do some tinkering with the V3 again. These also had a nock low tear. 

They’re cut at 26” and initially weighed 397gr with a 125gr tip. In tinkering, I was still nock low tear with the V3 at 58lbs. I lowered it to 56lbs and the tear improved to near perfect. I swapped out the 125gr tip for 100gr and it made bullet holes. 

My approach with this bow from the beginning has been that this bow likes weaker spine arrows. This endeavor has shown me that MY V3 does not like weak spine arrows. In fact it absolutely hates them. I pulled out the Nexxus Infinity 350’s and shot them with the bow set at 56lbs and with some quick nock tuning there was a much improved tear. Not quite perfect, but much improved from what I have been experiencing with them. 

Ok both software programs these arrows show “stiff” with the bow at 56lbs and the shafts cut at 26”. 

When the 300 spine Nexxus arrive I expect they’ll shoot fine with the bow at 58 or 60lbs. 

As for the Airstrikes, I’m glad I shot the 400’s in this bow. I’ll skip past the 340’s and go with 300’s for them too for the V3. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Akeley Run Archer (Jun 27, 2021)

Just a dumb question probably but do you square the ends of your arrow shafts?


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Akeley Run Archer said:


> Just a dumb question probably but do you square the ends of your arrow shafts?


Always. I use a Revolution arrow saw

Follow up :

So today, with the bow dropped to 56lbs I have three sets of broadhead tuned arrows. This bow likes a stiff spine

I have a set of 400 spine, 350 spine and a FMJ T64 DF 7.9, all fo which indicate “Stiff”, but all are broadhead tuned and smack shafts out to 40yds. 

Having the Garmin A1i Pro made it easy to setup three completely different arrows. But with the first Seth broad head tuned, the rest was set. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

To wrap this up, I resolved the issue. The rubber string stop was too close
To the string. At brace they were touching. I pushed it further in to the riser by ~ 1/8” and the bow is shooting cleanly now with the rest setup in a “zero” configuration. 




















Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Ionia (May 30, 2017)

Shooter Mike said:


> To wrap this up, I resolved the issue. The rubber string stop was too close
> To the string. At brace they were touching. I pushed it further in to the riser by ~ 1/8” and the bow is shooting cleanly now with the rest setup in a “zero” configuration.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ionia (May 30, 2017)

Thank you for sharing this journey with us. 
Great job. I’m sure this will be helpful to many of us.


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