# Help me spend some money :)



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chaos - 

OK, first off, what venue (18M, 70 meter, 3D, etc) and what scores are you currently shooting?
That stuff kinda matters.

Ask yourself what you don't like about your rig?
What would you like it to do (other than shoot all x's by itself)/feel like, that it's not doing for you. 
For example, your limbs: do you want heavier/lighter, smoother.harsher, different color? 
I can tell you what I like, and that may have no bearing on what you like.

Understand that something like 90% of what we buy/upgrade just isn't necessary for better scores.
It's more of a feel good thing. and while that's a real factor, most of the times, go with whatever floats yer boat. 

Viper1 out.


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## DanielFZ (May 31, 2016)

Without trying to replace anything with more expensive(better?) replacements, the best suggestion I can offer is an extension(3-4"), a vbar and some side rods. Depending on your height, you might find your front rod is a bit too long after the extension and vbar so you might want a shorter long rod, but wait to make that determination. This is what happened to me. Then you can play with dampers and weights and have fun finding the balance, sound, shot feel that works best for you,

Nothing wrong with Hoyt Super Rest, some people even shot them in the last Olympics, but that might be the first thing I would look at replacing with Shibuya Ultima Recurve Rest or something similar. I like mine.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

The Neo limbs are what I would replace. I had a set of really light ones. They did not come close to their marked weight and the fit/finish was poor. They were also the loudest limbs I have ever shot. I'd look at some WNS limbs. People seem to get a lot of bang for their buck with those.

Also, how smooth is your plunger? Can you feel any gritty friction when you push it in with your finger tip? Or is it buttery smooth? I started with the super cheap Beiter copy from China and it was ROUGH.


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

Ok, you feel that you have reached a plateau. New equipment will not magically boost you, and I think you already know that. Raise your goals and keep your current equipment. For example, if you can keep 60 arrows within the red seven ring at 20 meters, now set your goal within the red eight ring or even gold. Self analysis, in terms of your flaws, is difficult. Truthfully, I would save the money for private lessons from a qualified coach, once things normalize ( I know you didn't want to hear that). After a few sessions, the coach may have specific recommendations. For *me*, I went with better limbs. Did I notice a difference in feel? Yes. Did my scores improve? Hard to say since I was working on correcting some shooting issues as well, which I think was the greater factor.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

First off, thank you all for the responses. I spent about 4 hours out at the local Poway Range switching back and forth between my Oly and Samick Sage. The Sage is fun and gives me a break from the concentration, plus at 50lbs it makes my Oly bow feel easy to draw!

Viper1,
I always appreciate your feedback.

_OK, first off, what venue (18M, 70 meter, 3D, etc) and what scores are you currently shooting?_
I don't shoot a specific venue. I mostly shoot in my backyard, but I am quite competitive against myself. I am hoping to shoot some competitions with the San Diego Archers once it's safe.
I haven't done a 300 round in a while since I enjoy shooting at a longer distance. I can probably shoot a 270(ish) if I had to guess. At 50 meters today ALMOST all my arrows at least hit my 40cm target face 
The group in the picture above is pretty typical of a 6 arrow set at 40 yards, or 37(ish) meters. The center circle is about the same size as the 9 ring on a 40cm FITA target and the outer ring is about dinner plate sized. That would have scored maybe 46/60... but at a weird distance.

_Ask yourself what you don't like about your rig?_
I really like the bow, but I have almost no other reference other than my Junxing and Samick bows. I am also curious what side stabilizers would feel like. What would better limbs feel like? I have no clue.
_What would you like it to do (other than shoot all x's by itself)/feel like, that it's not doing for you._
I would love to shoot a bit flatter. I think the 125 grain field points are slowing the arrows down a bit.
_For example, your limbs: do you want heavier/lighter, smoother.harsher, different color? _
Limb color is the least of my worries! Like I said, I have very little reference so part of this is just experimentation. I took the advice on here and bought what I thought was a decent riser and went cheap on just about everything else. 

_Without trying to replace anything with more expensive(better?) replacements, the best suggestion I can offer is an extension(3-4"), a vbar and some side rods.
Yeah, I am thinking of completing the Infitec setup with some side rods and a V-bar. If I go that route I will definitely be going through Alternativess._

123 4/8 P&Y,
Thank you for the comment on the limbs. They were certainly not "top shelf", but I wasn't sure if I was going to stick this out. I will scour the alternativess website for some alternatives this weekend. There are lots of threads on here titled "best limbs for ***"
My plunger feels fine. Again, I have nothing to compare it to, but it's certainly not sticky or gritty feeling. I polished it up a bit when I bought it (I do some hobby machining).

Brian,
I am planning on getting lessons. I have been wanting to take lessons for almost a year now! I am sure I picked up some bad habits that will be hard to kick at this point. Watching NuSensei and Jake Kaminski videos is how I taught myself so far.

Thank you again,
Chaos


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chaos -

First, you really need to change your handle, it seems like you have your head on straighter than most.
Second, that's decent shooting for 40 yards.

Suggestion:
Get some 122 cm target centers (you won't need the whole target), set it up at 40 yards and get some numbers. (No Mulligans) That will give us and more importantly YOU a better idea about where you are. It will also serve as a benchmark to evaluate equipment and "technique" changes. 

Regarding equipment, still can't make a call. While all the suggestions made have some level of validity, (well, except for the v-bar thing and if you've read any of my older posts, you know my take on those...), how much of a difference any will make, we just can't tell from here. The only thing I will say, is if you are using arrows with field points, get some more "target" oriented arrows. And for that most part, right now, aluminum xx75s (Platinum Plus) or x7s with NIBB points will be a cost effective upgrade and you will never out shoot them.

Brian gave you the best advice about the coaching thing. He/she will be able to see what you're doing and should be able to fix any equipment deficiencies. And again, just be careful about people telling you what THEY like. 

Viper1 out.


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

If you are happy that gear won’t improve your shooting and just want to increase the ‘niceness’ of your setup, I’d get a Shibuya Ultima RC2 sight. Nice kit and should last a lifetime. Maybe that or a Shibuya or Bieter plunger (depending how much money you need help spending).

I guess, I’m suggesting If there are no pressing equipment needs replace the more “budget” parts with quality that should last as long as you can shoot.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

For me, looking at your kit, the two pieces that stand out as being worth replacing are your rest (a Shibuya rest is a small splurge) and sight (something with click adjustent, even the Shibuya Dual Click). They won't make you shoot better though. I think a rest that lets you set centershot does have some tuning benefits though.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Viper,
_First, you really need to change your handle, it seems like you have your head on straighter than most._
Haha, that handle has stuck with me for the last 25 years for some stupid reason...
_Second, that's decent shooting for 40 yards._
Thank you! I have been practicing a lot. Archery has kept me sane this last year.
I agree about the arrows and believe that's the one upgrade that will really make a noticeable difference. It was a HUGE improvement moving from the Amazon Musen carbon arrows to the Victory V-force arrows. There aren't a lot of options for 650-700 spine arrows locally. I am thinking of investing in some VAP arrows in 700 spine, which should allow me to take 25 grains or so off my tip weight. I will stop by Performance Archery here in San Diego and see what they have as far as aluminum arrows as well.

Tassie,
I would love a nicer sight. I am going to keep an eye out in the classifieds.

FerrumVeritas,
I found that by cutting the built in "plunger" from the Super Rest I can actually use the plunger to set the center shot. The Dual Click seems like the best value for a sight. Thank you.

Thanks again guys,
Chaos


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## allDrewallday (Feb 15, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> Chaos -
> 
> OK, first off, what venue (18M, 70 meter, 3D, etc) and what scores are you currently shooting?
> That stuff kinda matters.
> ...


What’s up bro I like your answer what would you recommend me for someone who knows nothing and does not even on a bow I’m in the market for one all I know is Hoyt is pretty good. I would like to hunt in my local mountains mostly for deer season. Would also like to go after some goats. But as far is just picking up a bowl what should I do first time?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chaos -

650 spine huh? How about Easton X7s in 1914 size? From very quick bows in the 40# range at 29", they've been my goto arrows for decades.Just remember what I said about people telling you what "they" like.

I would have to disagree with that center shot thing. In most cases, slightly off center with correctly spined arrows will be the most forgiving for the majority of shooters.

all -

This a target forum, and you might get better answers on one of the traditional or compound forums here on AT.
But here's a couple of things to whet your appetite:









So you want to get into archery?


This is a great sticky note for anyone thinking about getting into archery. When I started I was lucky enuf to have a bow sensei and without him I would have been wandering in the dark. This post does not discourage questions nor newbies from asking questions. It is very useful to provide a...




www.archerytalk.com





and









First Recurve Bow


t - Depends on the bow. For target, the Hoyt Super rest for a few bucks is very good, or on a hunting bow, something like the Bear Weather or J-2. Viper1 out.




www.archerytalk.com





There's a book I could recommend, but I technically can't mention it here 

Viper1 out.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

AllDrewAllDay,

Since you want to get into hunting, I would recommend maybe getting an inexpensive hybrid style bow or a more traditional recurve.
I am not a hunter, nor am I experienced relative to lots of people on here... but I did recently go through the same experience you are going through.
I ended up buying a Junxing F155 for about $90 online. It's got interchangeable limbs and an aluminum riser that you can outfit with sights and stabilizers if you want.
I didn't want to spend a lot of money because I wasn't sure if I was going to enjoy archery, or stick with it for very long.
Another popular option is the Samick Sage, which I also own. I bought mine on Craigslist for $60 with a bunch of really awful arrows.
Get yourself a bag target and have fun


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Viper,
I am guessing there is more to arrow speed/trajectory than just weight and diameter? The Easton X7 is 9.3 GPI vs a Victory VAP target arrow weighs only 5.7 gpi. That's about a 100 grain difference in overall weight. Cost is about the same I think, around $10 per arrow.

When I set up my bow I followed the easton tuning guide as meticulously as I could. My center-shot is set to about 1/8"(ish) to the left of center if I remember right. I have not done any real plunger tuning... I set it once about 9 months ago and haven't messed with it since.

Thank you, again


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chaos -

Actually, almost all of speed and trajectory are based on arrow weight in relation to the energy of the limbs. Diameter and even fletch type/size (within reason) are minor factors.

Yes, 1914s are heavier than the VAPs or Carbon 1s that I'm more familiar with and oddly enough only slightly heavier than similar spined X10s. From a GOOD 40# bow, the 1914s should have an initial velocity around 190 fps, which is way more than enough to reach 70M without breaking a sweat. Like I said, that's pretty much all I'm using these days and I've used aluminums, C1s, ACEs and X10s. Trajectories are different, but the scores, not so much. I think at your level, the aluminums, while not as sexy as the carbons or composites, will serve you very well. Yes - IN MY OPINION. 

Plunger tuning requires walk back or group tuning, and you might be putting the cart before the horse there. 

Again, you're asking good questions, but they may not be the most important factors right now.

Viper1 out.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

Chaoscreature said:


> Hey All,
> 
> I have been shooting this setup for almost a year now and have the itch to spend a couple bucks since my improvement is plateauing and it's much easier to blame the equipment than the operator!
> I do not shoot competitively, although I am hoping to join a local shoot once the pandemic ends. For now I am just content having a new hobby that gets me out of the house.
> ...


It's a bit harder to blame when you shoot a large group, but how about a bow stand? There isn't one in your pictures and if
you start going to competitions it's can be convenient to have one. Going from a homemade one with gravity problems to a spring-loaded beautifully over-engineered stand was well worth it for this archer. Same with other non-bow items: a quiver with enough pockets, a case that's easy to carry, and a comfortable belt can make a world of difference, which probably makes your subconscious happy with probably helps your accuracy.

Since you're already thinking about it, a second hand vbar with side rods and some weights to play around with would let you decide whether you prefer the bow with or without them. If they're long enough then they can make a bowstand moot. There's far less difference between the bottom and top of the market when it comes to side rods relative to long rods so anything that fits your colour scheme will do.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Cerelestecerele,

That's a great idea! often the bow rests/stands at ranges are far too short, leaving my limb tips dragging on the ground.

I pulled out my FITA faces this weekend and shot a 300 round. It's been a while... and I had a couple of flyers out in the blue. I shot a 252. Not horrible, but I was pretty disappointed with myself.

I have started putting some stuff into my cart at alternativess. I included some 122cm faces, Nexus V-bar and 10" short rods, and a fletching jig so I can buy some bare shafts.
I am on the fence about upgrading limbs. Some people seem to really notice a difference...but there isn't a solid consensus. I started with the cheapest limbs I could find, so maybe the upgrade will be noticeable? Anyways, this stuff has decent resale value if I hate it.
If I do upgrade it will probably be to Sanlida Athletics 7 limbs to match my riser. They are carbon/foam and have a few (very few) excellent reviews.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

I’ll give you the opposite opinion. The common quote is “a great archer could shoot the best scores with crappy equipment”, and therefore the equipment doesn’t matter. Well, of course the equipment matters. Tolerances are tighter, materials are more consistent, the fit, finish, and feel are better which can help give you confidence, you’ve invested considerably more money which can help motivate you to practice and break through the plateau. Also, you can find stellar equipment on the classifieds for a fraction of the cost, and I have found that generally people take good care of their equipment, and manufacturers generally build this stuff tough. Any W&W limb will serve you extremely well, and risers just get something out of good quality aluminum and tune the setup to be quiet and snappy. If your sight rattles loose, replace the sight with a moderately expensive one. 

Caveat, don’t buy as much equipment as I have. At a certain point you are just trading top shelf for top shelf and at that point it literally doesn’t make a difference. Except like Viper1 said, what’s your preference. 


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

I have 2 suggestions. First, how is that bag target working for you? I have tried several and all of them were limited. After a relatively short amount of use I got drooping arrows leading to broken or damaged arrows.

Next as with your rig, I tried to learn with just a single forward facing stabilizer. That gave me too much weight forward. My SF forged riser does not have any rear facing bushings. The typical solution would be to add Vee bars. I found an L shaped bracket and added a short rear facing bar and weights. That made a huge difference for me.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Camperjim,

The bag targets are fine, but like you said they don't last very long. I have three bag targets, one is completely shot out, one is about halfway dead and the last one is fairly new still.
I get them at Dicks Sporting goods. When they go on sale they are only $30-$40 with free delivery. Kind of hard to beat.
If I shoot an arrow and it droops or hangs I will usually stop and collect what I have shot to avoid damaging that arrow. I also have a couple of foam targets I can attach my target faces to.

I am planning on getting the V-bars once I make a decision on whether or not I am upgrading my limbs 

Thank you!


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Thank you everyone for the much needed advice and guidance.
I ended up purchasing the Athletics 7 limbs in 40lb, long.
I also got an Infitec Fletching jig, Infitec 10" side rods, an Infitec V-bar, a new string and a bunch of new 40cm target faces. I don't know why target faces are only 22 cents at Alternativess and over $1 each at local shops... The faces from alternativess are nice too. The ones at my local archery shop are thin printer paper and the targets I ordered last year are thick, waxy paper with reinforcement strings.
I was going to get new arrows, but I might way to see how the 40lb limbs work with my 600 spine Vforce arrows. If they tune okay, then I am all set!
Again, I appreciate all the help


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

C - 

Local shops have to make money any way they can. Mark up on bows and arrows is a lot lower than most people think. Accessories are actually where they make their money. One of our local ranges charges $2 for a 40cm target. I do what ever I can to support them, but that's a bit much. 

600's with target points should work on a 40# bow, and even a little stiff won't hurt you.

Viper1 out.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

[/QUOTE]
_OK, first off, what venue (18M, 70 meter, 3D, etc) and what scores are you currently shooting?_
I don't shoot a specific venue. I mostly shoot in my backyard, but I am quite competitive against myself. I am hoping to shoot some competitions with the San Diego Archers once it's safe.

_Ask yourself what you don't like about your rig?_
I really like the bow, but I have almost no other reference other than my Junxing and Samick bows....

_What would you like it to do (other than shoot all x's by itself)/feel like, that it's not doing for you._
I would love to shoot a bit flatter. I think the 125 grain field points are slowing the arrows down a bit.

_For example, your limbs: do you want heavier/lighter, smoother.harsher, different color?

Without trying to replace anything with more expensive(better?) replacements, the best suggestion I can offer is an extension(3-4"), a vbar and some side rods.

Yeah, I am thinking of completing the Infitec setup with some side rods and a V-bar._

Brian,
I am planning on getting lessons. I have been wanting to take lessons for almost a year now....
[/QUOTE]

*Word of advice*.

1. Spend the money on lessons. Youtube videos are good for start up, but you need to understand that there is no substitute for a well trained eye to see you shooting and correct your bad habits.

2. Can't really recommend anything more than I'm shooting with but.... (see recommendations if interested).

3. If you go on competing get into the FITA mentality. Recurve indoors = 18m, outdoors 70m nothing else nothing more.

4. Get into the habit of shooting smaller than normal targets. At 18m go for a 10cm target face. at 70m go for 80cm target face. All should be FITA so you can keep your scores.

5. Start getting your arrow maintenance skills to the next level: spine marking, weight, spinwings/nocks. You'd be amazed to see what difference 3-4 grains difference do to your scoring at 70m.

6. Practice often and gradually increase the number of arrows you are shooting.

7. Train in adverse weather conditions: heat, wind, etc. I've seen top shooters score badly in crosswind or gusting wind.



*Recommendations *


Your riser is fine for now save the $$$
Limbs: I use Sanlida Miracle X9's fiber foam. Best investment I made in limbs period.
Arrows: For 70m I shoot VAP V1's with 120gn tip and 1.75inch low profile spinwings, and X10's 100gn tip 1.5inch low profile spinwings. The VAP are around 330gn total and easily reach 70m, but drop somewhat.
The X10's are 280gn lots of speed but more unforgiving for a badly executed shot. If you want flatter shooting go for light ID 3.2mm arrows not necessarily X10's. (be mindful of FOC anything less than 10% is not working for me).

Sights: There's some nice used sibuya sights out there (300 $ + new). I also use the 1cm Decut Tawant so no worries there.
Arrow rest: The super rest is ok (got me endless arguments with my coach), but frankly I prefer the metal variants. (single not double step).
Stabilizers: Definitely VBar and maybe extender. You need to play around with the end weights to see how the bow drops. A too heavy or too light bow setup will ruin your shots.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Let us know what you think of those limbs!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Viper1,

Yeah, I totally get it. I try to support my local shop, purchasing all my arrows, wax, tab, arm guards etc. at either Performance Archery or Willow Creek, but neither of them carry much Olympic style gear since it's all pretty much custom order stuff anyways.

We are fortunate to have a couple of outdoor ranges here, plus I have my backyard. I was shooting 50 meters today at a 40cm FITA face. I got most of them in the paper at least and got a few in the gold.
I also brought my Junxing bow today. It's been about 6 months since I shot that bow, and honestly it was kinda nice to get back to something a little simpler. I usually bring my Sage, but it's almost too primitive! Since it's been so long, it was surprising how "janky" the Junxing bow felt. It's louder than my Olympic bow or the Samick Sage, but I actually shot some really nice groups at 20meters with it.

Giannis,
Thank you for the advice. Trust me, lessons are part of the plan. Alanna Dunaway is our local expert coach (Olympic Level IV, though I don't know what that means). I see her at the range every now and again. She gave me a couple of quick pointers a few months ago from a distance. She said I was plucking my string too much on the release which was super helpful! I am really looking forward to working with her to correct all the bad habits I picked up in the last year.
I do shoot smaller targets. I have a stack of 40cm target faces, so I use those for everything.
I try to shoot as many arrows as I can when I head out. I dislocated my bow shoulder a few times, so often that's what lets me know when it's time to pack it up.

My local archery club doesn't shoot FITA events, at least not that I am aware of. They have a bunch of 3D style courses and a 900 round, which is NFAA, I think.
Honestly the 3D style courses look like a lot of fun. They have a video from the last event and there seem to be a surprising number of people shooting Olympic style setups.





I spent the money I had nestled away, and probably went a little bit overboard! I am sure none of it will make me shoot any better, but part of the fun is messing with the gear 

Thank you all again for the advice and help. This really is a great forum for information.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Strugglesticks,
I will post here when they show up. It will be a couple of weeks. They need to go from China to the UK and then to California, so not a very efficient route.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Giannis_A said:


> *Recommendations *
> 
> 
> Your riser is fine for now save the $$$
> ...


I think you got the arrow weight backwards. VAP have a 5.5gpi and X10 7.0 gpi for 600 spine. Thats 280gr VAP and 330gr for a X10 for same spine. You cant get a X10 under 300gr with a 120gr point unless you cut the shaft to 25" long lol.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Timevoid said:


> I think you got the arrow weight backwards. VAP have a 5.5gpi and X10 7.0 gpi for 600 spine. Thats 280gr VAP and 330gr for a X10 for same spine. You cant get a X10 under 300gr with a 120gr point unless you cut the shaft to 25" long lol.


My scales say differently. I will post a pic for comparison at earlier opportunity.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Timevoid said:


> I think you got the arrow weight backwards. VAP have a 5.5gpi and X10 7.0 gpi for 600 spine. Thats 280gr VAP and 330gr for a X10 for same spine. You cant get a X10 under 300gr with a 120gr point unless you cut the shaft to 25" long lol.


Hello Timevoid, see attached pictures.Pic 3 is the X10's. Pic4 the VAP V1's. Both arrows are 28". I understand what the charts may say, but I always measure all my arrows for weight consistency.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

Chaoscreature said:


> Strugglesticks,
> I will post here when they show up. It will be a couple of weeks. They need to go from China to the UK and then to California, so not a very efficient route.


It should be quicker than you think. If you've got them from Alt services, they'll be coming from either Ssa in Belgium or JVD in the Netherlands, before being sent from the UK. They are already out of China. 😄


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

I got my stuff from Alternative Services today!
I installed the limbs and went straight out to the backyard to play with my new toys.
First off, the limbs are quite a bit stiffer than the old ones, despite just a 2lb increase in theoretical draw weight. I loaned my scale to someone at work, so I don't know what the OTF weight is, but I can definitely feel the difference.
My arrows now tune weak, bare shaft lands about 6" to the right and high @ 20 yards, so I will need to make some nock point adjustments tomorrow (if the weather allows!).
I have some 85 grain SAS field tips on their way, which should hopefully get the arrows back in tune. I can always cut the arrows a tad more as well if they continue to tune weak.
I did have some 100 grain tips that I tried out, but my bow shoulder started hurting and I had to call it a day. My arrows also seemed to tune a smidge to the right, but my groups were not as good at that point.
I also backed off the limb bolts 1/2 turn. I know, it's a lot of changes at once...

With the V-bar and side rods installed the bow is now super awkward to handle, but I am sure I will get used to that. I also bought a finger sling that I will start using this weekend. I have always just caught the bow after my shot, but figured I need to learn to let it go completely eventually.

One thing I noticed is that the bow is now VERY quiet, especially with the 125 grain points. It's just as if not more silent than my Samick Sage with the beaver balls. Pretty cool 
Thanks again everyone!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

C -

Loose the v-bars. 
At this point they are doing more harm than good. 

Viper1 out.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> C -
> 
> Loose the v-bars.
> At this point they are doing more harm than good.
> ...


Not a bad idea..... BUT
Chaos I thought you were saving enough for coaching.... our experiences are no substitute for a trained professional opinion.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Giannis,
The lessons aren’t expensive, I just can’t take any until after my wife and I get our vaccination shots.
I had a certain amount of “fun money” to blow and I think I did a pretty good job maximizing my returns.

Viper,
The V-bars aren’t awkward when shooting the bow, it’s more about the handling and storage.
I need to add some new dowels to my target/backstop/shed/thing so I can hang the bow again. I have to hang the bow by the string for the time being.
It’s also awkward loading arrows since I used to flip my bow sideways and slide the arrows into place while holding the clicker up with my thumb. I will need to modify that movement, but I’m sure I can get used to that. The bow is definitely better balanced now, it was quite front heavy before.
I am willing to lose them of course if they are hindering my shooting.

It looks like I might luck out with the weather this afternoon and have a chance to play with the setup some more.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Chaoscreature said:


> Giannis,
> The lessons aren’t expensive, I just can’t take any until after my wife and I get our vaccination shots.
> I had a certain amount of “fun money” to blow and I think I did a pretty good job maximizing my returns.
> 
> ...




I had to get my shots (Chinese made) to be able to compete!!! 
Good to keep the bow with the (assuming new) string on. Leave it for 2-3 weeks like this.
Try resting the bottom bow limb on your foot. or alternatively (as I do) stand it on the long rod Use your index finger to slightly lift the clicker...
Use a sling next time you shoot and RELAX your grip.
Welcome to the wonderful world of target shooting where even the slightest twitch will make the arrow land off the gold.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Giannis,

I am still using my old string. Is it common practice to settle in a new string by leaving the string on the bow for two weeks? From my experience with HMPE ropes it is more about the cycles than the time at tension for rope settlement.
I tried what you said, to load arrows with the bow resting on my foot, but it's still awkward. I just adjusted how I hold the bow and am getting used to the V-bars now. It's like any change in life, just takes a bit! Oh, and I made a mistake earlier, I was using my index finger, not my thumb to hold the clicker up.

So...
Some interesting tuning results today.
Keep in mind I had bare shaft tuned my setup with the 38lb limbs and my V-Force arrows prior to this upgrade. The arrows were tuning slightly stiff with 125 grain Saunders field tips (hitting a bit to the left) before any of the upgrades.
Well, today some 85 grain AAE field tips showed up in the Amazon truck. I immediately installed them on all my V-Force 600 spine shafts and went in the backyard to see how they performed.
The bare shaft missed the bag entirely at 20 yards with the 85 grain tips, over a foot away from the (meh) group of fletched arrows. Oddly, the bare shaft actually went further to the right than it had the day before with the 125 grain tips... although they were hitting more perpendicular to the target face.
Of course I repeated this several times to make sure I didn't just choke. Results were stunningly consistent. It's a good thing my backstop is there!

So I installed the new 85 grain tips on my 500 Spine Victory Decimator arrows. They tuned perfectly (okay, bare shaft is still hitting a little high).
I knew the new limbs felt a bit heavier, and they are 2lbs heavier, but this seems like a bigger difference than 2lbs should make. The new limbs also feel much stiffer right at the beginning (like when stringing the bow), but the draw force doesn't seem to increase nearly as fast. I will need to get my scale back from work next week to find out what's going on.

Now that I have the 85 grain tips on the Decimator shafts, I had to adjust my sight about 1/4" up at 30 yards to bring it back to center. Pretty cool stuff. I can't wait to play with this setup more!


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Just a few tips.

I am still using my old string.....
*Suggestion: *If you do not unstring at the end of your session you risk damage to your limbs that are always in tension.

I tried what you said, to load arrows with the bow resting on my foot, but it's still awkward. 
There's no magic on first try. It takes somebtime before it becomes routine.

So... Some interesting tuning results today.
Keep in mind I had bare shaft tuned my setup with the 38lb limbs and my V-Force arrows prior to this upgrade. 
Why are you using hunting arrows for target shooting?
But regardless, did you try to adjust your plunger to accommodate for the stiffer spine first?

So I installed the new 85 grain tips on my 500 Spine Victory Decimator arrows. 
What tips did they have before?
How many grains is the whole arrow?
Why are you shooting .245 arrows for target? 

I knew the new limbs.... but this seems like a bigger difference than 2lbs should make. The new limbs also feel much stiffer.... force doesn't seem to increase nearly as fast.
That's understandable but you will get used to it. 

...I had to adjust my sight about 1/4" up at 30 yards to bring it back to center...
That's pretty normal. But again shooting at 27m is ok with any arrow.
But to do target archery (accurately) you need a (as much as possible) specialised setup.

Try to shoot at 50 meters to see how the arrows behave and where they land.
I bet ya, you will....
a. Need to adjust sights a lot down
b. Watch the arrow do a parabolic flight (depends on weight).
c. Be a lot less accurate.

The important thing in distance shooting is arrow flight and trajectory.
Bad flight is due to form or arrow build.
Trajectory is due to kinetic energy and weight.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Put down the numbers below and i'm sure we can figure this one out. Looks like shaft could be tuned to your setup at full length shaft.
But it can also be false readings due to wrong plunger tension as *Giannis_A *mentions.
Or parts of arrow hitting the riser, rest, clicker.

Make sure brace height is within recommended range reading manufacturer recommendation. 
And centershot is also checked. Arrow shaft is resting on the center of plunger button.

But its basic tuning you and archer buddies can do at the club together.










Depending if your a right or left archer.










Left or right handed?Draw length?Draw weight off the fingers (use digital luggage scale)?Shaft length inches.?point weight125gr or 85grVanesBlazers 2" ?Nock10 grshaft weight per inch6.7 gpispine600


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Giannis,

Thank you for the in depth response. I will response to your responses below:

I am still using my old string.....
*Suggestion: *If you do not unstring at the end of your session you risk damage to your limbs that are always in tension.
*I always unstring my bow. I installed the new string today and am going to leave it on overnight to see if it stretches at all.

I tried what you said, to load arrows with the bow resting on my foot, but it's still awkward.
There's no magic on first try. It takes somebtime before it becomes routine.
*Yup, totally get this. I have gotten decent at loading with the new V-bar now. Just took a day to get used to it.

So... Some interesting tuning results today.
Keep in mind I had bare shaft tuned my setup with the 38lb limbs and my V-Force arrows prior to this upgrade.
Why are you using hunting arrows for target shooting?
But regardless, did you try to adjust your plunger to accommodate for the stiffer spine first?
*I use hunting arrows because they are: A) Cheaper and B) Much more readily available. Until I finalize my tune and spine, I certainly don't want to invest $100 plus in arrows. The Decimator arrows are basically V-Force Sport arrows and were on sale at Dicks for $20/6-pack. Hard to go wrong with that!

So I installed the new 85 grain tips on my 500 Spine Victory Decimator arrows.
What tips did they have before?
How many grains is the whole arrow?
Why are you shooting .245 arrows for target?
*Old tips were 125 grain Saunders Combo points. Arrow weight calculates out to 361 grains for the Decimators with 125 grain points and 318 grains for the V-Force arrows with 85 grain points. I don't own a scale accurate enough to measure arrows... yet!

Try to shoot at 50 meters to see how the arrows behave and where they land.
I bet ya, you will....
a. Need to adjust sights a lot down
b. Watch the arrow do a parabolic flight (depends on weight).
c. Be a lot less accurate.
*I do shoot 50-60 meters when I go to the Poway Range. I can shoot 40 yards in my backyard. The drop is certainly parabolic, it drops off fast. The difference in my sight marks is pretty large between 40 yards and 60 meters. I have not shot 70 meters yet. Normally I shoot at the 40 yards my backyard allows. I am of course very comfortable shooting at this distance since I do it every day. It has been months since I missed my (roughly) 60cm bag target at this distance, and I normally land most of my arrows within the dinner plate sized center target.

The important thing in distance shooting is arrow flight and trajectory.
Bad flight is due to form or arrow build.
Trajectory is due to kinetic energy and weight.
*Right. I had my arrows tuned pretty well before I switched limbs. Walk-back tuning and bare shaft tuning was spot on out to 40 yards (within my ability anyways!). I think I need to start over and re-tune my setup starting at the beginning. The current plan is to:
1) Back off limb bolts another 1/2 turn. They were pretty much maxed-out tight when I started (top was looser than bottom, tiller was set to 1/4" more on top). The bottom bolt will now be at 1.5 turns from full tight.
2) install the new string and let it sit overnight to stretch (in process)
3) Re-set brace height
4) double check tiller and limb alignment
5) install new nocking point strings.
6) Install a solid piece of metal in my plunger and re-do my bare shaft tuning to see what it looks like. There seems to be a disagreement between archery scholars as to whether or not to spine-tune an arrow with a solid plunger or not.
Not sure what step 7 is since it may depend on the results from step 4. Between my 500 and 600 spine arrows (all cut to 29.25") and assortment of 125 and 85 grain field tips I am sure I can come up with a combination that works.

I am looking forward to tomorrow. I didn't get to shoot any arrows today, was busy with house projects 

Thank you again everyone for the help. I really can't wait to take some lessons. I know my form has some issues and the sooner I can make corrections, the better! I am completely aware that I am the limiting factor in my accuracy, but shooting targets and upgrading my equipment helps break up the monotony of the pandemic. Unfortunately "Critical Manufacturing" got bumped in California and I probably won't get a vaccine shot until late spring or summer now, so lessons will have to wait a little longer


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

We can always pass on knowledge online friend.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

It sounds like you are having fun. I wish I could shoot at my house.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> It sounds like you are having fun. I wish I could shoot at my house.


As the saying goes, Wherever there's a will, there's a way.

I was shooting in an abandoned building during the lock down....


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

123 4/8 P&Y,
I have been having a great time learning archery, and finally found a use for my "lower lot".
I don't know how small your house is, but if you have a garage or a long hallway you can probably set up a target there. I met a guy at the public range not too long ago who prior to that day had only shot at a distance of about 16-20 feet inside his garage.

Giannis,
That's pretty awesome! How long is that room?


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

End to end about 16 meters. Had to clean up the junk myself (actually I recruited my wife to help at some point too).
Found me some old couch pillows, made a wooden frame from scrap wood and pretty soon I had my own little range. 

The downside was as there was no A/C it was cooking in the summer (outside temperatures easily exceed 125 F in these parts) so I could only use it for a limited time.
The same for night shooting. No electricity = No lights.

But.... there was a will....


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Timevoid,
I am not ignoring you, but I can't get my actual draw weight until I get my bow scale back. I filled out the Tuning For Tens worksheet (slightly modified) below with everything I could measure.


I went back to the beginning and stripped down my bow, then used a bit from the Easton Tuning Guide and a bit from the Tuning for Tens guide.
After re-adjusting tiller, brace height, limb alignment etc., I performed some stiff plunger bare shaft tuning per the Tuning for Tens guide.
It was REALLY windy today, so I only bare shaft tuned out to about 16 yards.
With the 600 spine arrows I was getting impacts just a little to the right. The 600 spine arrows had a visible fishtailing/wobble to them.
With the 500 spine arrows I was getting impacts just a little to the left, but they flew straight (as an arrow?)

So what's the consensus on here about bare shaft / plunger tuning? I thought the stiff plunger method was a good idea just to see if I was even in the ballpark, and things went MUCH better than they did last week. I am going to repeat the bare shaft testing tomorrow just to confirm because the wind really was pretty bad.

ASSUMING I get the same results tomorrow, should I:
A) Cut the 600 spine arrows shorter
B) Add weight to the 500 spine arrows
C) Modify draw weight (I can go in/out about 2 turns in either direction)
D) Try to tune the bow to the arrows using the spring loaded plunger


Date:3/15/2021RiserSanlida Athletics 7LimbsSanlida Athletics 7, 40lbsUpper Limb Bolt:Out 2 TurnsLower Limb Bolt:Out 1.5 TurnsUpper Tiller7.5625Brace Height9.25Lower Tiller7.4375Draw Length 30.25" ATALength of String70"Type of StringCarrera 99RNumber of Strands16Nock Point0.5"Sight UsedCartel Focus KArrow BrandVictory V-Force 500/600Arrow Length (carbon-carbon)29.25Type of PointAAE Combo PointPoint Weight85 grainsType of NockVictory plasticFletchingBlazer 2" VanesPlungerInfitec Nexus A1


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

If you think the 500's are closer to tuned than the 600's, I would focus on those first. Maybe start with option C, then B.

If you aren't satisfied with the 500's and have to go back to the 600's, then I'd still start with C, then A last.

I don't think I would do option D for Olympic style recurve.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi Chaos, 
My 2bit experience and advice as follows:

I think 16y is too short. you need double the distance. (we do our bareshaft tuning at 30m in the club).

Spine wise I think you are there (see chart). 

With the 600 spine arrows I was getting impacts just a little to the right. The 600 spine arrows had a visible fishtailing/wobble to them. 
That's why you fletch them.... but to the right generally indicates a weak arrow. 

With the 500 spine arrows I was getting impacts just a little to the left, but they flew straight (as an arrow?)
To the left indicates a stiff spine. 

Your results are to be expected, since you are shooting 2 different spined arrows.

I found this very helpful for guidance in bareshaft tuning
Olympic recurve bare shaft tuning

should I:
A) Cut the 600 spine arrows shorter
unless absolutely necessary that would be the final choice

B) Add weight to the 500 spine arrows
That's an option, and if you have screw on field tips an easy one. 

C) Modify draw weight (I can go in/out about 2 turns in either direction)
That should be your first option

D) Try to tune the bow to the arrows using the spring loaded plunger
you should have tuned with the plunger to start with..... I don't see the benefits of bare shaft tuning without the plunger. You will be shooting with it....so why remove it on the tune?


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

I'm not sure you can do much on the 600 spine shaft. You already have big heavy vanes that stiffens upp the shaft. Adding even more weight to the back (bushing) will not help much.

Dropping 2-3lbs in draw weight will have the biggest impact. And should get you into a tune. 
Cutting shaft 1/4" at the time. But i don't recommend it, you may end up with to short arrow for arrowrest and clicker to make it fit your long draw. If u cut to much and its money down the drain.

If you want the 500 to tune. Re-fletch them with light vanes, and reduce the weight on the back with 10 grains to weaken the spine a bit more. May be forced to increase the draw weight. That can cause form issues.

My bet is on the 500 spine with a refletch. Below is just the effect of reducing the vanes by 10 grains.

Its always a bit more forgiving shooting a bit stiffer the weaker arrows.

About plunger settings i leave it for the experts. 

For myself, arrow weight and arrow stiffness effects the plunger spring tension. Light arrow/ soft spine i go softer setting. Stiffer and heavier arrow i go a bit stiffer spring tension. 

Blazers. 19 grains











2" vanes 9 grains total.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

@Timevoid

Whats this software you're using?

View attachment 7379209


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Giannis_A said:


> @Timevoid
> 
> Whats this software you're using?
> 
> View attachment 7379209








Products - Pinwheel Software


Archery Balistic Software, pinwheel software, ontarget, on target, on target software, software for archers, SFAX, OT2, OT2Go, archery software, arrow selection, sight tapes, arrow spine, archery ballistics




www.pinwheelsoftware.com





There are plenty of spine calculators. Its the one i get along with most.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

@Timevoid 

Looks nice. I'm using an online one, so I'll explore this.
Thanks for the link, much appreciated.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Giannis_A said:


> D) Try to tune the bow to the arrows using the spring loaded plunger
> you should have tuned with the plunger to start with..... I don't see the benefits of bare shaft tuning without the plunger. You will be shooting with it....so why remove it on the tune?


I don't think he meant to say he was tuning without the plunger installed. I think he was just suggesting he may manipulate the spring pressure in order to achieve a better tune.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

_"I don't think he meant to say he was tuning without the plunger installed"_

Right, I am using a plunger but I removed the spring and installed a little bit of metal to lock it up. I think this might be referred to as matchstick tuning???
The plunger is also backed out a little so that the arrow is on-center with the string.

Anyways,
I played around some more yesterday and actually got my 500 spine bare shaft to group right in with the fletched shafts at 30 yards consistently.
Once I got that dialed in I put the spring back in the plunger and adjusted it back out to have roughly 1/2 the arrow diameter to the left of the string. Then I adjusted the plunger tension to get the bare shafts and the fletched shafts to group together again.

Today I want to do some walk-back tuning and see how things look.

Thanks again everyone. The tinkering is half the fun


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Chaoscreature said:


> _"I don't think he meant to say he was tuning without the plunger installed"_
> 
> Right, I am using a plunger but I removed the spring and installed a little bit of metal to lock it up. I think this might be referred to as matchstick tuning???
> The plunger is also backed out a little so that the arrow is on-center with the string.
> ...


I have never shot with a sight, I'm in the FITA forum trying to learn. I want to ask why you didn't leave the plunger backed out so the arrows are centered with the string? Will you probably be moving it during your walk-back tuning?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

1234/8 P&Y,
Everything I have read about tuning says the plunger should be set just a hair further out than center, such that your arrow is approximately 1/2 a diameter to the left of the string when you sight straight down the string (aligned with the limbs.
I did my walk back tune today and everything looked good, at least within my ability to form groups at least!
Logic would dictate everything should be Pete you on center, but I think the finger release and our imperfect hands throws things off a bit.
I also did some additional bare shaft testing back to 40 yards and everything was spot on with my bare shaft landing right in with my fletched groups.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Then you are good to go Chaos.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

I made it out to my local range today and got to shoot out to 50meters. There were too many people on the longer bales and I just can't shoot with a mask... so I stayed in my corner.
I thought I did really well, at least for me... 
Someone had left an 80cm 5-spot target on the 50 meter bale, so I shot at that. My first arrow hit low, but after some sight adjustments I only missed outside the #5 ring one time over the next 1.5 hours (my string hit my chest guard and the arrow went low/left).
There was only one archer at the field shooting better than me, and she was working with the same coach that I would like to be working with. I forgot her name, but she was nailing the gold on a 122cm target face at 60 meters pretty methodically. The smoothness of her shot sequence is cool to watch. Consistent.
Next up is to re-fletch my Decimator arrows with some Bohning Imulse vanes and see what happens. I still get a little bit of vane contact on the bottom of the riser with the Blazer vanes, so I am hoping this will clear that up.
Anyways, thank you again for all the help. I am super happy with my new setup 

Is anyone on here from SoCal BTW? The regional forums are not very active.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

The smoothness of her shot sequence is cool to watch. Consistent......
There is a wealth of information (shot setup, execution, timing) you can pick up by watching fellow archers shoot. I regularly watch fellow archers shoot.

Next up is to re-fletch my Decimator arrows.....
The Imulse vanes look good, but i'm a bit skeptical on the mass/ distance configuration. Do yourself a favor and in general go for low profile vanes.

Enjoy your archery man,


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Giannis,
Thank you.
I already have a small bag of impulse vanes, and I bought a fletching jig, so some of this is just me wanting to tinker more.
The impulse vanes are 1/2 the height of the blazer vanes, but an inch longer. Is 0.3” “high profile”?

this is off topic, but I noticed that most olympic recurve vanes are monotone. Is there no need for vane indexing since the vanes are so small?


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

Chaoscreature said:


> this is off topic, but I noticed that most olympic recurve vanes are monotone. Is there no need for vane indexing since the vanes are so small?


After a while it's second nature to nock the arrow with one vane pointing out. Many nocks also have a little nub on the side so that you can nock it without looking. It also means buying fewer bags of vanes.
Whether the indexing with small vanes even matters depends on whether they consistently clear the bow without any contact when nocked either way around. Some do, some don't.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Try offset fletching for added rotation and stability.
No 0.3" is not high profile. There's good reason for that too. High profile vanes are usually reserved for compounds that have no clearance issues. 
For recurves, if you use a high profile vane it will most likely scrape off the rest/ shelf or side of the riser, leading to inconsistencies.
Its generally good that they are long, as it improves lateral stability, (i.e. corrects faster).
I'm not sure how they will fly long distance. I changed to spinwings sometime back, and although I got me a bundle of cut shield vanes, I have not used vanes for a long time.

Vane indexing is visually nice and useful for beginners/ intermediates. 
But once you realise that your nocks have a small extrusion on one side that allows you to know the side you put them on the string problem solved. You can use single color and feel the right side of the nock with your finger. or you can do multi color for enhanced visual oooh's.

Enjoy


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## Steve P (May 14, 2009)

I'm not sure Spin Wings were the original curled vane, but had to be one of the first. I thought their recommendation to not mix the different colors had to do with the colors all had different stiffness, but it appears to be different drag. Maybe different stiffness relates to different drag. May be that using the same color just continued on. I know it didn't take me long to switch to the same color feathers years ago.


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## Steve P (May 14, 2009)

Mounting instructions.


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## Steve P (May 14, 2009)

Darn!! Sorry, not sure how to edit. Step #6.


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## Steve P (May 14, 2009)

Top right corner in second photo says Revised 7-02. July 2002?

Steve


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Steve I doubt it has to do with stiffness of the mylar material. It is usually pretty consistent no matter the coloring.
I have used 2 different color spin wings as well (bought 2 sets of same spin wing design one blue one silver shooting it as we speak, no issues whatsoever).

Now as for drag (and despite what the instructions say) I can assure you it has nothing to do with the different colors.
You get more drag (in our case profile drag) from the offset mounting of the spinwing than you do from the surface (parasite drag). 

Drag is primarily what causes the arrow to rotate, as the drag force is translated into rotational motion.
See drawing below.

Hope that helps.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

Steve P said:


> Top right corner in second photo says Revised 7-02. July 2002?
> 
> Steve


That's a bit out of date as there hasn't been a difference in drag for more than a decade. It's the top question on the company's FAQ . Not super common to see people mixing them but they do make it to national finals sometimes so the batch to batch difference can't be that bad. Curved mylar vanes are quite a bit different to the rubbery vanes that were being asked about though.


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

Back in the early 90’s when spin wings first came out. There was thought to be a difference between batches and color. Bring the color dyed would cause the vanes to be stiff or weak. You could actually feel a difference between the colors. I’m sure those differences have been disproven or designed out of the product by now


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

Theisgroup said:


> Back in the early 90’s when spin wings first came out. There was thought to be a difference between batches and color. Bring the color dyed would cause the vanes to be stiff or weak. You could actually feel a difference between the colors. I’m sure those differences have been disproven or designed out of the product by now


Nice to know that Theisgroup. Never realised there's so much history behind spinwings. 
I'm shooting DECUT spinwings. All look and feel the same cut and the mylar is pretty consistent. Haven't had a tear or any clearance issues.

Last week I mounted them with 3 deg offset, for added rotation. so far in relatively short distances they drive nails.
Will be testing them for FITA 70m tomorrow.

Feeback available on request.


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## DanielFZ (May 31, 2016)

The Range-O-Matic website FAQ is interesting on the color issue:



> *Does the color of the vane affect the drag?*
> In our most recent testing, it was shown that there is *no difference* in drag between the colors.
> 
> 
> ...


Which is it?!?


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

I finally got my bow (luggage) scale back and measured my draw weight.
Im pulling 46lbs through the clicker! Crazy. I knew these limbs were heavier, but I wasn’t expecting that. The 38lb Infitec Challenger limbs pulled 40lbs with the limb bolts about all the way in. I figured the 40lb limbs would bump me up to 42lbs... and this is with the limb bolts out an additional 1.5 turns.
Anyways, I guess this explains why the 500 spine arrows are working well for me.
I got to shoot out at 60 meters earlier in the week. The bow felt great and the newly fletched Decimator arrows Flew well. The trajectory is much much better with the added power and lighter field tips.
I’m hoping to get my vaccine shots soon. The San Diego Archers have a 900 round coming up and that sounds like a lot of fun.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chaoscreature said:


> I finally got my bow (luggage) scale back and measured my draw weight.
> Im pulling 46lbs through the clicker! Crazy. I knew these limbs were heavier, but I wasn’t expecting that. The 38lb Infitec Challenger limbs pulled 40lbs with the limb bolts about all the way in. I figured the 40lb limbs would bump me up to 42lbs... and this is with the limb bolts out an additional 1.5 turns.
> Anyways, I guess this explains why the 500 spine arrows are working well for me.
> I got to shoot out at 60 meters earlier in the week. The bow felt great and the newly fletched Decimator arrows Flew well. The trajectory is much much better with the added power and lighter field tips.
> I’m hoping to get my vaccine shots soon. The San Diego Archers have a 900 round coming up and that sounds like a lot of fun.


1) stick with the 500 spine arrows
2) would like to see you using 100 grain field points, to get the FOC up to the 12% range-ish
3) assuming ILF longs, assuming 9.25-inches brace, drop the pounds on the fingers to about 40#, whatever pounds on the fingers, that will get the 100 grain field points to tune (fletched and bareshafts grouping together).

4) general rule of thumb for centershot is 1 FULL arrow diameter outside the bowstring, not 1/2 arrow diameter.
if the arrow is tuning stiff, then go to 1/2 arrow diameter outside the bowstring, cuz this is more inline with bowstring, and the arrow will tune weaker. If the arrow is tuning weak, stiffen the plunger and go to 1 full arrow diameter outside the bowstring (away from riser).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chaoscreature said:


> I finally got my bow (luggage) scale back and measured my draw weight.
> Im pulling 46lbs through the clicker! Crazy. I knew these limbs were heavier, but I wasn’t expecting that. The 38lb Infitec Challenger limbs pulled 40lbs with the limb bolts about all the way in. I figured the 40lb limbs would bump me up to 42lbs... and this is with the limb bolts out an additional 1.5 turns.
> Anyways, I guess this explains why the 500 spine arrows are working well for me.
> I got to shoot out at 60 meters earlier in the week. The bow felt great and the newly fletched Decimator arrows Flew well. The trajectory is much much better with the added power and lighter field tips.
> I’m hoping to get my vaccine shots soon. The San Diego Archers have a 900 round coming up and that sounds like a lot of fun.


I don't see any mention for what bowstring material you are using.
BCY 8125 is nice.
BCY 8190 has a soft feel to the shot.
I make 452X recurve strings for my recurve students....very consistent sight marks, in colder or warmer temps.

Having a custom recurve string sized perfectly for YOUR nock system, can have a noticeable difference
in your group size. The center serving outside diameter should be sized to hold up the weight of your arrow,
when the string is horizontal and the arrow is pointing straight down. However, the nock should EASILY slide up and down the center serving. This means the center serving outside diameter is not too large. Then, the FINAL test, is one sharp tap from your index finger. Nock ears should release and the arrow should FLY off the center serving.

I like tied nock points, cuz they are adjustable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chaoscreature said:


> I finally got my bow (luggage) scale back and measured my draw weight.
> Im pulling 46lbs through the clicker! Crazy. I knew these limbs were heavier, but I wasn’t expecting that. The 38lb Infitec Challenger limbs pulled 40lbs with the limb bolts about all the way in. I figured the 40lb limbs would bump me up to 42lbs... and this is with the limb bolts out an additional 1.5 turns.
> Anyways, I guess this explains why the 500 spine arrows are working well for me.
> I got to shoot out at 60 meters earlier in the week. The bow felt great and the newly fletched Decimator arrows Flew well. The trajectory is much much better with the added power and lighter field tips.
> I’m hoping to get my vaccine shots soon. The San Diego Archers have a 900 round coming up and that sounds like a lot of fun.


If possible, tape your camera phone to a ladder, so the camera lens is at YOUR shoulder height.
Set the ladder far away enough, that your camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes, and can see all of you and ALL of your bow, and especially ALL of your stabilizer setup. Watching the end of the stabilizer, on video, tells me a tremendous amount of information about your shot execution.

Fire one arrow into your target, say 3 yards away. Set your bow down, go pull your arrow,
and return to the shooting line (duct tape on the floor). Fire your arrow again. Go pull your arrow.
Record about 5 minutes of video, recording you shooting that ONE arrow again and again.
This slows you down. I get to see how you address the shooting line, and how you set your grip, whether you pre-draw or not, whether you are a linear draw Olympic archer or a angular draw Olympic recurve archer.

The video will show the quality of your follow through reaction on the bow hand side,
and
the video will show the quality of your follow through reaction on the string side.

Example of one of the best Olympic archers, from years ago.






Learn how to make a CUSTOM finger sling from a shoe lace. The length of the finger sling matters a GREAT deal.
WHY?

Cuz, we want to tune the forwards bow jump for your Olympic bow, into your finger sling.
The extender and the front stick, and the v-bar and the side sticks, and sometimes a TOP rod,
are all designed to make the bow FRONT heavy on purpose. How much front heavy to set the bow balance, depends on your shooting results. We tune the side stick weight, and the front stick weight, to fine tune FOC for the stab system.

The bow swinging down, is not a STYLE thing. THE bow swinging down, is on purpose, where we allow the bow to fly into the finger sling, and since the bow has LEFT the bow hand, the bow naturally swings down, cuz the Olympic rig, is set for a FRONT heavy balance, on purpose.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chaoscreature said:


> I finally got my bow (luggage) scale back and measured my draw weight.
> Im pulling 46lbs through the clicker! Crazy. I knew these limbs were heavier, but I wasn’t expecting that. The 38lb Infitec Challenger limbs pulled 40lbs with the limb bolts about all the way in. I figured the 40lb limbs would bump me up to 42lbs... and this is with the limb bolts out an additional 1.5 turns.
> Anyways, I guess this explains why the 500 spine arrows are working well for me.
> I got to shoot out at 60 meters earlier in the week. The bow felt great and the newly fletched Decimator arrows Flew well. The trajectory is much much better with the added power and lighter field tips.
> I’m hoping to get my vaccine shots soon. The San Diego Archers have a 900 round coming up and that sounds like a lot of fun.


So, if you still have budget for purchasing gear.
Get a CLICK plunger. Makes tuning SUPER repeatable....very convenient.
You do the MATCHSTICK plunger tuning (HARD plunger) to fine the best POUNDS on the fingers,
with the plunger extension set for the amount of arrow shaft, you want OUTSIDE the bowstring (away from riser).

I would start with 1 FULL arrow shaft outside the string, as a starting point for center shot (how much you screw the plunger body into the riser, to have the tip of the plunger push the arrow away from the riser). Lock down the plunger body, so you have 1 arrow diameter outside the bowstring. Pull out the spring, and use wooden toothpicks) to make a HARD plunger.

Now, you tune the limb bolts, to get the bareshaft hitting INSIDE your fletched group at 18 meters.
When you find the perfect combo of POINT weight, and shaft length, and POUNDS on the fingers (limb bolts adjusting),
then, you remove the wooden match sticks, and stick the appropriate spring (soft or medium or stiff) into the plunger body, and pick a MEDIUM-ish spring tension.

Now you can further fine tune groups by messing with BRACE height.
Just change the brace, and allow your GROUPS to tell you to add more brace or to reduce brace.
Since you are PROBABLY shooting split finger, stick with 1/4 positive tiller.

You don't mention what finger tab material. If not already using cordovan leather, for your tab,
switch to a cordovan leather tab. When broken in, this will be the fastest and most consistent tab material.

Most advanced shooters, have TWO tabs evenly broken in.
Learn how to properly TRIM a tab.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Oldie but a goodie. AAE Cavalier Elite Finger tab. Mine is sooo old, it has three layers, the middle layer being a thin layer of rubber.



Each layer has to be trimmed separately. The top (upper) layer is the shortest. The bottom layer is the longest.



The size of the plate, is designed to help you be consistent with a deep hook. So, if you wear an XL glove size, then, you are going to need the largest size tab.



I use Sugru to custom shape the finger spacer. Super comfy. Super consistent.



After enough shooting, the Cordovan leather will be broken in, will retain the shape of your string hand, and will fit no one else.


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

I shoot the same tab. Mines an original cavalier from Dick Tone. No spacer but a shelf. Old school style. Wish I could find the original cordovan he used. The new stuff is too thick and not has pliable

46# seams awful heavy for a newish shooter. I’m not as young, but just started shooting again in august 2020 and just worked back into 40#. I shoot every day about 100-150 arrows a day


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

LugNut,

Wow, lots to unpack there. Thank you for all the responses, it's too bad you are so far north!

The arrows are tuned pretty well to the current setup. I did the matchstick tune with the arrow centered on the string, then adjusted the plunger centershot and stiffness to get my fletched/bare shafts to group together out to 40 yards. I can walk-back from 10-40 yards with this setup. Arrow flight seems pretty good. I know I could drop the draw weight some more, get some better arrows and get things dialed in even more, but I think I am going to stop messing with the equipment for a couple of months and focus on the real issue... which is me!

For strings I am currently using an Avalon TecOne Carrera 99R.
My tab is the AAE Cavalier as well. It was my first splurge purchase when I got into this a little over a year ago. I bought it with leather then upgraded to Cordovan maybe 4 months ago. It needs trimming, I have just been reluctant to do so. The witness marks in the cordovan are pronounced enough that I can do it.

I have a finger sling, I just can't stand it. I need to just commit and get used to it though.

Our local archery instructor, Alanna Dunaway, was at the range the other day. She gave me a free 30 second diagnostic from 10 feet away and told me I need to work on my release and my grip. Because I don't shoot with a sling, my hand is too vertical on the grip, my knuckles are at about 20(ish) degrees instead of 45. When I release my hand moves away from my face instead of straight back. Alanna called it plucking.

I have watched some videos of Park Sung Hyun and other elite archers. For sure my shot cycle is nowhere near as smooth as theirs! They make the process look effortless, but that's what all elite athletes do with their sport.

Thank you again!


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

@Chaoscreature 

You will need a custom grip sooner rather than later (another head banging project), as by changing the angle of your fingers you may inadvertently move your pressure point.

PS: Go ahead and trim the tab. there's plenty cordovan around..... you will immediately feel a difference in your shot cycle.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Well 46 lbs then the mystery is solved  

Just a warning. That high draw weight can cause your fingers to go numb quickly. Use several layers of leather and Cordovan. Its a compromise with feel of string or numb fingers after a practice.

I had to take large timeouts from rock climbing because i lost feeling in my fingers. At one point i though i lost it all together. Took about 5 month to get it back. It slowly Creeps up on you.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

@Timevoid 

Why would you climb rocks to fire arrows? Sweden has many open fields.....


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chaoscreature said:


> LugNut,
> 
> Wow, lots to unpack there. Thank you for all the responses, it's too bad you are so far north!
> 
> ...


1) trim the tab, a little bit at a time. Trace end of fingertips onto the faces (each face), with a sharpie pen. Then, whip out the scissors, and trims towards the sharpie pen line. Your groups will improve MASSIVELY, as you trim the excess leather, each time. Yes, ALL of my newbie recurve students CRINGE in fear, when I suggest it's time to trim the tab.

2) to KILL the pluck, it's time to get a form-master and start training.






Do NOT try the form-master with 46 lbs on the fingers. You will hurt yourself. Find the cheapest set of 20 lb limbs, to do for-master training. It will open your eyes. This will kill the pluck.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Another video, about for-master.


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Giannis,
I was told to try adding some grip tape to the throat of the grip would help a bit. I am assuming they meant something like tennis grip?
I dabble in some wood work, so maybe I will craft a custom grip one of these days if I find the time.

Timevoid,
I have been shooting 50lbs recurve for the last year, but it's definitely more taxing on the back muscles with the Oly Setup than with my nekked Samick Sage due to the extended time at full draw. The Cavalier pad is pretty comfortable at this draw weight, although it is just a little thinner than the tab I made for shooting my other bows.
I used to rock climb too BTW. I quite because I couldn't find anyone to climb with... I still have a backpack full of carabiners, chocks and a rope that's probably still safe for rappelling at least!

Lugnut,
Dang, thank you for all the helpful information. I will start trimming my tab back tomorrow. I thought I would have a chance to shoot some arrows today, but I ended up spending the afternoon hanging out with the wife and playing some tennis. There is a lot to digest here. I think I will start with the tab trimming and working on my release. I think I can recruit my wife to help watch me shoot and make sure I am not "plucking". Once I sort that out a bit, I will work on my grip and using the finger sling... which I am really not excited about.


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## Giannis_A (Feb 15, 2021)

@Chaoscreature 
A custom grip will cure a lot of the bow holding issues.
Instead of having your "managing director" observe, get her to do six very short videos (from raising the bow to follow thru (+/- 10 seconds). Preferably 1 set in the beginning of your training (after warm up rounds) and 1 towards the end.
It is then easy to have a coach, colleague, buddy or team member do an analysis of your shot(s) and offer advice.
Plus it is a convenient video training log, where you can see yourself progression (or lack of).

Uploaded a picture of the relative positions, cell phone orientation and fields of view.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Chaoscreature said:


> Giannis,
> I was told to try adding some grip tape to the throat of the grip would help a bit. I am assuming they meant something like tennis grip?
> I dabble in some wood work, so maybe I will craft a custom grip one of these days if I find the time.
> 
> ...


Im using Wilson just like Anthony picked. Its a thinner grip tape that doesn't change the shape of the grip like the thicker tennis grip-tapes will do. The extra friction will help you relax your bowhand even more. Thickness is about 0.5mm or 1mm overlapping.
Hope you found a bowsling or something. Not all are in love shoestrings  i rather focus on shooting then faff around with strings.






Sample


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Thanks Timevoid!

Is that a 3d printed grip?


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

Chaoscreature said:


> Thanks Timevoid!
> 
> Is that a 3d printed grip?


Yes RCore from Greece. "standard" flat grip medium angle, with lifeline ridge added. 









R-Core standard grip review "Electron Scope...


So i ordered a flatter grip for my FC-100. I always lack support with current WNS/Win&win standard grip in the upper half of the "life-line". Its somewhat round shapes that is causing this problem. Im lefty so don't get confused, grip is to be hold in my right hand. Grip feels like a quality...




www.archerytalk.com


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Chaoscreature said:


> Thank you everyone for the much needed advice and guidance.
> I ended up purchasing the Athletics 7 limbs in 40lb, long.
> I also got an Infitec Fletching jig, Infitec 10" side rods, an Infitec V-bar, a new string and a bunch of new 40cm target faces. I don't know why target faces are only 22 cents at Alternativess and over $1 each at local shops... The faces from alternativess are nice too. The ones at my local archery shop are thin printer paper and the targets I ordered last year are thick, waxy paper with reinforcement strings.
> I was going to get new arrows, but I might way to see how the 40lb limbs work with my 600 spine Vforce arrows. If they tune okay, then I am all set!
> Again, I appreciate all the help


Are you happy with the Sanlida limbs? I have some 40# longs in my shopping cart for summer fun.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

Strugglesticks,

I am very happy with the limbs. They are very smooth and very quiet, but then my only other experience with ILF limbs are pretty much bottom of the barrel.
Mine seems to draw a bit on the heavy side. I'm at 46lbs on the fingers with my limb bolts about 3 turns out.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Chaoscreature said:


> Strugglesticks,
> 
> I am very happy with the limbs. They are very smooth and very quiet, but then my only other experience with ILF limbs are pretty much bottom of the barrel.
> Mine seems to draw a bit on the heavy side. I'm at 46lbs on the fingers with my limb bolts about 3 turns out.


My experiences are with inexpensive glass/wood hunting limbs. So hopefully these carbon/foams will feel smooth like butter.  If they are on the heavy side, I may eventually give them a matte spray paint camo job and take them to the woods.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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