# IBO pro hunter class for 2015



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

There is going to be a petition to start a pro hunter class in IBO next year. We are going to need 100 signatures to get this done. If interested there will be a petition at Marengo 3rd leg and also at IBO worlds. The class will be same equipment as hc and ahc . Undecided is max yardage and 140 entry fee. Please help to get this going. Max yardage discussed so far is 40 or 45 yards. Thanks for help.


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## Air_Raid (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah sign me up. Needs to have shoot times like SPM and PMR for sure


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I agree. Look for it at these shoots!


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

I would consider it. Been shooting MBR for a while and I think a few of those guys would go. Not many left in MBR anymore. JW


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## A.j. (Sep 30, 2004)

The max yardage and entrance fees should be the same as the PMR, pay to play and call it PHC.


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

I like it, I currently shoot MBR and would consider moving to the Hunter Pro Class.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I think keeping yardage similar to existing classes that you would draw from is the best idea. Being ahc , Mbr and some hc. I am shooting ahc and I know I personally would not go if it was 50 max. I totally agree it needs to be set up like pro classes as far as start times.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Even if you aren't interested in shooting it but support the idea please find the petition at these shoots.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

i have always thought of Hunter Class as being a beginners class not a "Pro Class". but with close to 50 guys shooting even or up and having to shoot atleast 20+ Xs why not? if nothing else it may thin the herd in regular HC


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Reminds me of the argument for known pro. Im not aware of any current pro that supported the concept. My suggestion: start by changing the name to something that doesn't include "pro". Why have hunter, advanced hunter and " pro" hunter? 

As a bit of a side note, I think IBO would be better served to quit having the optional "money" pot within the same classes and have a more defined and enforced progression system.


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## tank69kma (May 1, 2013)

bsharkey said:


> i have always thought of Hunter Class as being a beginners class not a "Pro Class". but with close to 50 guys shooting even or up and having to shoot atleast 20+ Xs why not? if nothing else it may thin the herd in regular HC


The problem with that is that you won't get the top 50 out of HC...they have it too easy. Why would they go to a "pro" class when they are consistently winning/placing the HC class? I'd like to think that many would step up for the challenge if this class were implemented, but let's face it, the human nature is complacency...not all, but many..."I got it good, why change and have to work harder" when it should be "I've conquered this class, to get better, I have to step up".


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

bsharkey said:


> i have always thought of Hunter Class as being a beginners class not a "Pro Class". but with close to 50 guys shooting even or up and having to shoot atleast 20+ Xs why not? if nothing else it may thin the herd in regular HC


HC is an entry level but its almost impossible to get auto moved out. I get that some guys want to shoot fixed pins with shorter stabilzers. Just becareful with the "pro class" because you may have some guys come from PMR and shoot "PHC" because there could potentialy be more money in it. I honestly think the answer is bump guys from HC and AHC and provide them another fixed pin class with short stabilizers. Doesnt have to be a "pro" class. I am all for it. I started shooting 3d last year (I am a dot guy). At almost every shoot I go to I see lots of guys shooting HC that have no business shooting an entry level class. Just my 2 cents


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## tank69kma (May 1, 2013)

rohpenguins said:


> HC is an entry level but its almost impossible to get auto moved out. I get that some guys want to shoot fixed pins with shorter stabilzers. Just becareful with the "pro class" because you may have some guys come from PMR and shoot "PHC" because there could potentialy be more money in it. I honestly think the answer is bump guys from HC and AHC and provide them another fixed pin class with short stabilizers. Doesnt have to be a "pro" class. I am all for it. I started shooting 3d last year (I am a dot guy). At almost every shoot I go to I see lots of guys shooting HC that have no business shooting an entry level class. Just my 2 cents


NAILED IT! Great post!


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

If guys want to drop down from semi or pro go for it and far as auto moved out I stopped shooting for 8 years and my 2nd year back I won out there of hc. Now in ahc. The reason I went back was no one locally shot open and it drives me nuts waiting for open guys to shoot. Nothing against them just it takes longer to look at yardage set ur sight recheck your sight so on.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

tank69kma said:


> The problem with that is that you won't get the top 50 out of HC...they have it too easy. Why would they go to a "pro" class when they are consistently winning/placing the HC class? I'd like to think that many would step up for the challenge if this class were implemented, but let's face it, the human nature is complacency...not all, but many..."I got it good, why change and have to work harder" when it should be "I've conquered this class, to get better, I have to step up".


very true
one thing i hear alot too is i just shoot for fun/hunting practice that is why i shoot HC. but you see them at all the triple crowns and the worlds trying for that Belt Buckle.
i have said it before the IBO needs people to state their class at the beginning of the year and have it on their card so they cant skip out of the third shoot to stay in HC.
i know a few who shot a different class at Merango just because they knew they weren't going to win it all but were in that % to be kicked out.just for a Belt Buckle


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

stoz said:


> I think keeping yardage similar to existing classes that you would draw from is the best idea. Being ahc , Mbr and some hc. I am shooting ahc and I know I personally would not go if it was 50 max. I totally agree it needs to be set up like pro classes as far as start times.


I seriously doubt it will go very far. If you shoot a single tournament in a Pro class you MUST shoot "Pro" in the NFAA and at least semi-pro class in ASA. Not many folks are going to pay $140 to get whipped by the truly top shelf guys. It's not going to happen. If this class flies it will not be a very big draw. The PMR class at Erie only had *24* archers. IF this class has very many archers you will see some top guns taking joe Pro's money.



tank69kma said:


> The problem with that is that you won't get the top 50 out of HC...they have it too easy. Why would they go to a "pro" class when they are consistently winning/placing the HC class? I'd like to think that many would step up for the challenge if this class were implemented, but let's face it, the human nature is complacency...not all, but many..."I got it good, why change and have to work harder" when it should be "I've conquered this class, to get better, I have to step up".


A big reason to shoot Pro Hunter would be for the money, sponsorship help and the "notoriety". I seriously doubt more than a few, if any, of the top Hunter class guys can compete with the best AHC, MBR AND those guys that would PHC on occasion. I can about guarantee you that someone like Chris Perkins would eat people up in a 40 yard fixed pin class! I shot K50 with him at the ASA in Kentucky and he CAN yardage guess with the best out to 50. Shooting say 315 - 325 fps would help a bunch.



rohpenguins said:


> HC is an entry level but its almost impossible to get auto moved out. I get that some guys want to shoot fixed pins with shorter stabilzers. Just becareful with the "pro class" because you may have some guys come from PMR and shoot "PHC" because there could potentialy be more money in it. I honestly think the answer is bump guys from HC and AHC and provide them another fixed pin class with short stabilizers. Doesnt have to be a "pro" class. I am all for it. I started shooting 3d last year (I am a dot guy). At almost every shoot I go to I see lots of guys shooting HC that have no business shooting an entry level class. Just my 2 cents


You are spot on. If the guys currently winning HC don't have the balls to move up to at least AHC I seriously doubt they would even consider shooting a MUCH tougher class! For there to be a Pro class it must have the backing of sponsors I can about guarantee no one is going to put much funds for a very tiny audience and if they did, like you said, current Pro's would jump on it. You can't simply can't create a Pro class and assume it would truly be a Pro class in every sense of the word. Just because a guy can occasionally do well in a 35 yard entry level class does not mean he can stand the heat of shooting in a real money class with longer distances while going face to face with his competition. No way could PHC have anything but a random draw for groups!! That is a whole new concept to many of the guys shooting an entry level class. 

The IBO would be foolish to entertain the idea of a "Pro Hunter" class. I'm fairly certain there would be no gain and quite possibly it would dilute the current Pro class. The IBO Pro class can not endure a further reduction in participation and expect to keep sponsors on board. It's really just hanging on as it is! 24 Pro's at Erie? NOT good! 

The ONLY way a "Pro Hunter" class would be viable is if a very big sponsor stepped up and really poured good money into it and then it would still take a while to build a large pool of participants........ The sponsor would have to really want to do it because it would not be fiscally sensible to do so.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

I just ran the numbers from last weekends triple crown event. Below are the percentages for each class that shot even or better. 

HC=27, AHC=40, MBR 23, MBO 3.5
SPM=14, PMR=58

these numbers say alot to what is going on in the IBO but just to stay on subject. The AHC guys have no where to move into and the HC guys that score well dont want to leave a class that they consistantly shoot in the upper 25 perent into a class they might end up finshing in the bottom 50 percent.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

If the IBO wants to set them selves apart, get rid of open PROs as it is now no scopes or long stablizers and have a real Pro Hunter class charging 150 to shoot in it


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

LongTime said:


> If the IBO wants to set them selves apart, get rid of open PROs as it is now no scopes or long stablizers and have a real Pro Hunter class charging 150 to shoot in it


That would be interesting and just might be a draw! I would say no lens, any sight, the stabber could only be say 15", NO back bar, screw-in points required and a max arrow diameter of 23. 

I do not know if you can clearly define sights such that sliders are legal and other target sights are not.


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## BROX (Sep 29, 2005)

rohpenguins said:


> HC is an entry level but its almost impossible to get auto moved out. I get that some guys want to shoot fixed pins with shorter stabilzers. Just becareful with the "pro class" because you may have some guys come from PMR and shoot "PHC" because there could potentialy be more money in it. I honestly think the answer is bump guys from HC and AHC and provide them another fixed pin class with short stabilizers. Doesnt have to be a "pro" class. I am all for it. I started shooting 3d last year (I am a dot guy). At almost every shoot I go to I see lots of guys shooting HC that have no business shooting an entry level class. Just my 2 cents


I got permanently bumped out of HC my first year shooting the full triple crown now shooting AHC I might move out of AHC after I become competitive in that class


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

BROX said:


> I got permanently bumped out of HC my first year shooting the full triple crown now shooting AHC I might move out of AHC after I become competitive in that class


Thanks Brox, I think there is a niche for a pro hunter class. I feel same way, won out of hunter this year ranked 4th going into last leg in ahc. I think there is enough shooters that would step up.


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## deer down (Feb 23, 2007)

A phc will probably bring a few guys from hunter if any, but what it will do is get the top guys from mbr and ahc into one class. the top ten dudes in those classes can really shoot. also with some of the top dogs gone in ahc I think you will see more guys step out of hunter class. and with a real chance at some decent money, might draw some guys from open as well. I highly doubt any current pros will be leaving the open rig for short bars and pins. I for am all for it, the option to be in or out of the money at a national shoot is kinda funny to me, i can win a shoot at home in ahc and get almost as much as a national. as far as hunter class, I say one year and out for the top 30-40 guys.


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## Mead (Jun 19, 2002)

If you look back in time you'll remember when the IBO basically had three adult male classes. They were MBO, MBR and Pro. Along the way too many classes were created to accommodate everyone. Why not go back to what we used to have and bring the yardages in? Make everything money pay back so you don't pay extra to shoot for money. When the hunter classes were designed there were a large number of people who found a home there and in my opinion it's because people like to shoot good scores and they don't want to shoot long yardages. Bring the yardages in for all classes except pro and make it a shootout. I'm pretty sure nobody will shoot a 440. If you do this you encourage people to come because they can shoot high scores and not be intimidated by long yardage. Judging longer distance takes a lot of practice to be accurate. Many people just don't want to spend that amount of time. If they shoot the hunter classes the yardage is closer so they can get away with a much larger mistake in estimation. I'm sure the MBO guys would like closer yardages too, as a whole. It encourages better shooting and not so much time judging yardage to be competitive. For anyone who spends a lot of time shooting 3ds the distances under 40 yards are much easier to estimate. If the classes stay as they are this idea might get a lot of the top shooters out of the classes and give others opportunity where it didn't exist before. I also think that since hunter classes are designed for new shooters that anyone who shoots over a 400 should automatically be moved out of the class the following year. This would help the numbers in MBR and MBO and leave the hunter classes with more people in it who should truly be in it. I guess the real question is this……………….why do the vast majority of you shoot the hunter class? Is it to win? Is it because you don't want to shoot long yardages? Is it because you want to shoot 3d with your hunting set-up? Those are the questions that should be asked.


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## buck_up_inohio (Dec 14, 2010)

they are not there because it is too FAR for them these guys wanna "sandbag" and stay lets say HC and AHC because they got it made!!! I mean come on 402 placed 43 I think in erie HC....


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## buck_up_inohio (Dec 14, 2010)

THE BOTTOM line is you can add all the class's you want but this problem is going to stay the same!! AHC guys are not gonna move because of xtra money to shoot and HC guys will stay until forced out or like someone said don't shoot that class at the 3rd leg to stay ! they need a rule whatever class you start in at the southerns is what your in for the year. that's just one thing they need to change. everyone is complaining about wes vanhorn... but under IBO rules he can stay there until he is to old to shoot! they need a 2nd rule in place you win a NATIONAL event your moved out to next class up. PERIOD!! think about it guys shoot bad all year then goes to the worlds and place in top ten (talking about HC ) and boom they are kicked out! is that FAIR??


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

Where can Wes van horn move to that is has short stabilizer and fixed pins. There is more $ in AHC for him because there are more shooters than MBR lets face it that class is dead. Lots of guys don't shoot because they don't want to change to different equipment. I am sure Mr van Horn would do quite well shooting MBR 5 yards to that caliber of a shooter is not going to hurt him at all. Just be thankful ant he shoots the works ever year and triple crown events. If not he could still be in HC shoot 1 or 2 national events and all the state events within 4 hours of where he lives and pad his resume. I think growing the IBO will come from splitting the open classes like the ASA. I am not advocating known yardage just a shorter distance for enty level open class shooters.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

Now for my fix if I were the Supreme Ruler of the IBO

1. You claim a class for the year when you register for an IBO membership.
2. Top 10 finish at any national event or winning a State Championship is an auto move out the following year
3. FHC and HC 2 year limit until you have to move on to an advanced class.
4. Get rid of limited classes except for the guys over 60. get rid of MBR and FBR.
5. MBO and fbo stay the same but have a 40 yard entry level open class that mixes male and female with the same move out rules as the HC and FHC.
6. Create a new HC called super duper ultra HC SDUHC for short and shoot at 45 yr max with HC and AHC rules. Oh and 35 yard AFHC
7. Speed limit HC bows to 300 ft/sec.
8. peer group all MBO ,SDUHC , FBO and like pro and semi pro groups for national event. 

I am sure the good idea fairy will visit me with something I missed.

v/r 
Your future supreme ruler of the IBO 
#awesomeideas


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## Mead (Jun 19, 2002)

You guys don't get it with the entry level gig. Go back to two classes like the old days and be done with it. That way you don't have people in entry level classes that shouldn't' be there. If you create an "entry" level MBO class you don't think all sorts of advanced shooters are going to be in it? Come on.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

rohpenguins said:


> Now for my fix if I were the Supreme Ruler of the IBO
> 
> 1. You claim a class for the year when you register for an IBO membership.
> 2. Top 10 finish at any national event or winning a State Championship is an auto move out the following year
> ...


I've been preaching #1 for a while.
You are a great and wise man I will follow you as my supreme leader and rejoin the IBO if they follow these ideas.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I don't see the dropping out of a class to not win out. I know most of the top guys in hunter that won out last year in the national triple crown and cant think of one who didn't show. Except me due to a health issue. And I won out at world's.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

We should petition to make money payouts mandatory for all classes! What kind of national shooting series has a money option and hunter classes should have a opportunity! I'd like to a middle level open class too along with force out rules for everyone and even a reasonable speed limit of 315.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

At least completely seperate classes....

I always wondered in MBO if 100 shooters entered, 80 paid money add on. Then all top 20 were by non money shooters.....what a payday for IBO


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

I doubt that would ever happen but it shouldn't be a option. Everyone should be shooting for money.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

I made $208 at the Kentucky ASA for 11th in Open B what does that say?


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

I agree there should be pay out in every class and there should be no option for paying in it should be part of your entry fee simple and easy I believe this would yield large pay outs which in turn would bring more shooters a win win for everybody


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## Revenge (Mar 14, 2013)

I shoot hunter class. Why? Because I can't shoot 50 yards? No because just that I am a hunter I will not risk a shoot on a deer past and I damn sure don't hunt with a 30 inch stab and 18 inch side bar and a lense.so that being said I run a small side bar on my bow but the way I got to a shoot is the exact way I hunt except I put broad heads on. I do very well around my area at shoots I won are state ibo shoot placed 4th in va and have won a couple big shoots around here. Now you guys are basicly saying that as some one shooting hunter I must be scared to shoot open? I've shot from an open stake with my bow a couple times and been 3-4 points away from 1st. So why not leave everything the way it is quit *****ing about it and just shoot. I go to have fun not because I want to win money if you guys are in it for the money than maybe you need to re evaluate why you shoot. Shouldn't just being able to say hey I finished top 10 out of 200 people be enough? Everybody wanting to get paid is what ruins sports. I for one see nothing wrong with the classes the way they are and if you don't like it don't shoot plan and simple or get better so you can be the top dog cause I don't hear anyone who is top of there class on here *****ing


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

If you want to have fun shoot your local shoot. A National Championship Triple Crown sponsor by the archery industry and run by highly paid staff with your money is more then just fun or hunting practice it's a competition!


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

Garceau said:


> At least completely seperate classes....
> 
> I always wondered in MBO if 100 shooters entered, 80 paid money add on. Then all top 20 were by non money shooters.....what a payday for IBO


 IBO pays out to those that pay into the money.
http://www.ibo.net/results.php?e=186&c=17


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

RickT said:


> IBO pays out to those that pay into the money.
> http://www.ibo.net/results.php?e=186&c=17


Right so if they pay out top 20% as in the scenario above....they would collect "add on money" from 80 shooters and not pay out a penny.

I doubt that would ever happen - but I still think they should all shoot together, then of course break up the groups etc


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## Revenge (Mar 14, 2013)

Trust me I've been in competions more than just archery I use to wrestle at the national level but I never expected to get paid. I've been to national shoots also. But maybe if you guys want pay out maybe you should shoot the pro or semi pro classes I see no reason to have a pro hunter class or whine about payouts like I said before if you don't like it don't shoot! Simple as that.


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## Revenge (Mar 14, 2013)

Plus if your not having fun maybe you should quit everyone wants to win but damn your basicly going this isn't fun this is competition! I think maybe you should quit than. Maybe take some time off and re evaluate why you started shooting to begin with.


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

I would shoot a class where I can have a shorter stabilizer 12 inches perhaps, a single point attachment rule as well.. Sites can only stick out 5 inches max beyond the riser and the site would have to be adjusted from behind the riser. NO Lens, screw in points, hunting shaft arrows. Make it like a hunting set up. I would gladly shoot AHC because I enjoy the yardage. But I do not like shooting multiple pins. I shoot a single pin site all year and switching to stacked multiple pins screws with me horribly. I would love to be able to shoot a class where I can step up to the stake, look at the yardage, adjust my site and shoot. I will be signing the petition at Morango! Great job everyone.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

Some people expect more out of organizations that make millions off their members excuse me for thinking we should have a opportunity to make some money. Let's just give it all to the executive branch of the IBO so we can have fun.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

turkeywhisperer said:


> Some people expect more out of organizations that make millions off their members excuse me for thinking we should have a opportunity to make some money. Let's just give it all to the executive branch of the IBO so we can have fun.


Me x2


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

I love these posts when the IBO is brought up. I can't count how many threads a IBO Board member gets on and says things like Revenge. So I'll ask Revenge are you a IBO BOD member or a State Rep because you sure sound like one!


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

I had a IBO rep PM me the other day from another thread 
The host club get 29$ for every entry fee 
So in Erie the host club got about $32,000


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

wpk said:


> I had a IBO rep PM me the other day from another thread
> The host club get 29$ for every entry fee
> So in Erie the host club got about $32,000


And remember that at least 3 host club Board members are also IBO Board members. Hmmmm!


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

I think revenge missed the intent of the OP. 
1. There is no place to move out of AHC and he would like to start another class beyond AHC and still shoot the same equiptment.
2. Bigger payout would equate to the better shooters move into this new class with the intended result being more competition.
It's a great concept IMHO, what others have simply stated were some areas of concern i.e unintended consequences to be thought of. With that being said don't try to sell me the IBO isnt a target shooting organization so distances shot on 3D courses are not intended to be realistic hunting senerios. Yes it is good practice. You also claim its just fun and not really competition sounds to me like you travel a good bit in order to compete. I bet you even carry bino's and a score card. If it was call about practice for hunting you would not need to worry about scoring rings just put kill shots on the whole course but then again any quarting away shot would yeild a 5 and at best an 8. Local shoots cost about .50 cents per target to shoot state and national events cost 2 times that amount at least. It is only fair to have a fair payback system. Hell win a national event in AHC it will not even pay for the cost of the trip. 
This thread was started to ask for support in a proposed change and there have been some great ideas and points made some I agree with some not so much but in the end there are people that give a **** and realize the IBO is dying on the vine and that 3D isn't dead look what the ASA is doing in an area of the country that has less population. If your answer is "shut up and deal with it or don't shoot" then don't come on here an whine when the time comes and you don't have a place to shoot.


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## meloy10 (Feb 3, 2014)

^^^^ jackpot!!!!


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

rohpenguins said:


> I think revenge missed the intent of the OP.
> 1. There is no place to move out of AHC and he would like to start another class beyond AHC and still shoot the same equiptment.
> 2. Bigger payout would equate to the better shooters move into this new class with the intended result being more competition.
> It's a great concept IMHO, what others have simply stated were some areas of concern i.e unintended consequences to be thought of. With that being said don't try to sell me the IBO isnt a target shooting organization so distances shot on 3D courses are not intended to be realistic hunting senerios. Yes it is good practice. You also claim its just fun and not really competition sounds to me like you travel a good bit in order to compete. I bet you even carry bino's and a score card. If it was call about practice for hunting you would not need to worry about scoring rings just put kill shots on the whole course but then again any quarting away shot would yeild a 5 and at best an 8. Local shoots cost about .50 cents per target to shoot state and national events cost 2 times that amount at least. It is only fair to have a fair payback system. Hell win a national event in AHC it will not even pay for the cost of the trip.
> This thread was started to ask for support in a proposed change and there have been some great ideas and points made some I agree with some not so much but in the end there are people that give a **** and realize the IBO is dying on the vine and that 3D isn't dead look what the ASA is doing in an area of the country that has less population. If your answer is "shut up and deal with it or don't shoot" then don't come on here an whine when the time comes and you don't have a place to shoot.


Very good post. People complain that shooters are winning and staying in same class. Well this gives the pin class shooters some where to advance to.


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

What what I don't get is 
pin shooters have a place to go MBR
unless the Ibo puts in a move out rules I don't think that class is going to be a success
I hope I'm wrong
but the HC guys won't go to AHC and the AHC guys won't go to MBR 
so what makes everyone think that they're going to spend 140 and move up in class
Yes you will have people shoot it but enough to justify another class we will see I hope it works out for you guys


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

rohpenguins said:


> I think revenge missed the intent of the OP.
> 1. There is no place to move out of AHC and he would like to start another class beyond AHC and still shoot the same equiptment.
> 2. Bigger payout would equate to the better shooters move into this new class with the intended result being more competition.
> It's a great concept IMHO, what others have simply stated were some areas of concern i.e unintended consequences to be thought of. With that being said don't try to sell me the IBO isnt a target shooting organization so distances shot on 3D courses are not intended to be realistic hunting senerios. Yes it is good practice. You also claim its just fun and not really competition sounds to me like you travel a good bit in order to compete. I bet you even carry bino's and a score card. If it was call about practice for hunting you would not need to worry about scoring rings just put kill shots on the whole course but then again any quarting away shot would yeild a 5 and at best an 8. Local shoots cost about .50 cents per target to shoot state and national events cost 2 times that amount at least. It is only fair to have a fair payback system. Hell win a national event in AHC it will not even pay for the cost of the trip.
> This thread was started to ask for support in a proposed change and there have been some great ideas and points made some I agree with some not so much but in the end there are people that give a **** and realize the IBO is dying on the vine and that 3D isn't dead look what the ASA is doing in an area of the country that has less population. If your answer is "shut up and deal with it or don't shoot" then don't come on here an whine when the time comes and you don't have a place to shoot.


Well stated finally someone with a brain to go with there mouth


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## Reaper15 (Jun 17, 2012)

I have just a some simple question. How are you going to put a limit on the speed which a bow shoots when most hunting bows now a days shoot faster then 300fps. And I understand there are sand baggers in HC I've shoot HC for a couple of years now and I'm just now getting to the point where I'm comfortable judging yardage. My biggest buck to date was taken with my Specialist and the same arrows I use to shot IBO. Which they are only 315 grains. I use a destroyer 340 to hunt with and my arrows fly faster with a heavier then my other arrows. last time I check speeds they were up to 320 fps when I'm only getting 315 fps out of my specialist same draw weight and length. So why are you wanting to put a speed restriction on the bows? I also use a single pin moveable sight on my hunting setup where I use a fixed pin sight on my specialist. which a lot of guys and gals are using now on hunting so why don't we stop the limits on sights o yeah because there needs to be rules to follow by. Now I know there are people that will bend those rules as far as the can to some how better there chances of winning. I also understand that the IBO numbers have gone down over the years but I will continue shooting because it has made me a better shooter. Also I was unable to shoot Erie this year because I had other things and I couldn't make it. I shot a 403 in Bedford and would have been up there again in Erie but couldn't get away for the weekend to go shoot. So do you want to string me up and say that I was sandbagging in not shooting Erie so I didn't have to move out of HC go ahead don't make much difference to me. I shoot because I love shooting my bow doesn't matter what class I'm in I just love shooting. I think to many people get caught up in the competition part of it. even if there was a payout for every class do you honestly think that you would make enough money in a year of shooting to pay for all the shoots you go to. If you want paid that much money get sponsored win every shoot you go to and shoot pro. For a simple guy like me I'll pay for the shoot pay for the trip and enjoy myself weather I win or not I know that when to fall comes I'll be ready to draw back let fly at and animal and know that where ever my pin is and as long as there isn't a limb in my way I'm going to make that shot.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

Adding a class is not the solution! There are guys already that won't pay $57 to shoot for money in some classes! Do you think they will pay $150? A move up rule is a good idea. They can go to AHC then MBR! Make all the money classes (except pro and semi-pro classes) pay $45 for everyone at national events (not worlds) and don't give a choice of not shooting for money! This will increase the payouts! And for someone that was forced to move up $45 dollars is easy to stomach versus $150! At $150 you probably lost another shooter. Also for those that right now choose not to shoot for money raising it to $45 is also easier to stomach rather then taking it all the way up to $57 which is what it currently is to be eligible for money!


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

Also just for the record I DO NOT feel MBR or MBO should have a move up rule! MBR is the highest level pin class and MBO is the highest level amateur class! These guys should NOT be forced out in my opinion! In MBR you would have to buy a $500 target sight and scope to compete at next level or if you add a pro hunter class their fee triples! Same with MBO your fee triples if you are forced out! This will cause guys to stop shooting! We are trying to grow the sport not lose more shooters! If you are in the highest level of your respective class you know it and if you are not winning practice more! Don't force a shooter to stop shooting just because you think they should go to a different class! Again at the highest level only! The lower classes should have a move up rule in my opinion!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

turkeywhisperer said:


> Some people expect more out of organizations that make millions off their members excuse me for thinking we should have a opportunity to make some money. Let's just give it all to the executive branch of the IBO so we can have fun.


Which archery organizations are making millions? I want in on that as soon as I find out which one it is.

I doubt all of the organizations in the US combined make millions.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

PETeach said:


> Also just for the record I DO NOT feel MBR or MBO should have a move up rule! MBR is the highest level pin class and MBO is the highest level amateur class! These guys should NOT be forced out in my opinion! In MBR you would have to buy a $500 target sight and scope to compete at next level or if you add a pro hunter class their fee triples! Same with MBO your fee triples if you are forced out! This will cause guys to stop shooting! We are trying to grow the sport not lose more shooters! If you are in the highest level of your respective class you know it and if you are not winning practice more! Don't force a shooter to stop shooting just because you think they should go to a different class! Again at the highest level only! The lower classes should have a move up rule in my opinion!


Very well stated, I agree 100%.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

darton3d said:


> Very well stated, I agree 100%.


So , not to argue, you think that in all other classes besides mbr and mbo you should have a move out rule?


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

No, I think if there is a higher class that uses the same equip and same fee there should be a move up rule of some kind! Not just win one! If your class is the highest without changing equip or going semi-pro or pro then no move up rule! No move up rules in MSR, MBR, MBO, MCBH, FBO, SEMI PRO, PRO, FHC (cuz I don't think there is a FBR but could be mistaken) PSR, PRF, etc I may have missed some cuz doing it from my memory! My point is not only to try to get others to shoot but also very important to not lose the ones we have!


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I think that is a good idea. Maybe win worlds or national triple crown and move up. I also think for those classes that don't move out a mandatory money pot would help.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

PETeach said:


> No, I think if there is a higher class that uses the same equip and same fee there should be a move up rule of some kind! Not just win one! If your class is the highest without changing equip or going semi-pro or pro then no move up rule! No move up rules in MSR, MBR, MBO, MCBH, FBO, SEMI PRO, PRO, FHC (cuz I don't think there is a FBR but could be mistaken) PSR, PRF, etc I may have missed some cuz doing it from my memory! My point is not only to try to get others to shoot but also very important to not lose the ones we have!


Again, very well stated and this is what I would like to see. There is a FBR class, but it is almost non-existent unfortunately. My wife shot that class the past three years but is moving to FBO this year due to the participation.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

Yes in my first post I stated mandatory money! Make it $45 and no choice!


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

Couple things...

The i.b.o. is only worth my time if i have nothing else to do that weekend. And by nothing i mean be lazy too. Its obvious its not a shooter oriented organization. Which leaves only 1 other option, money. Almost every other organization is making progress. They are bringing numbers back up. Once these up and coming organizations catch on, the i.b.o. will fade.

Someone earlier said shooting for money is the wrong reason. If you're not having fun, quit. Blah blah blah. Shooting for money is a rush. And shooting in a national shoot competing against the best is also exciting. I dont know why you think people travel all across the country to these? 

I am speculating here but i believe someone involved in this thread or following it is a cowardly individual. That what is said is not what you think so you go behind their back. Or if the actual organization took action based on opinions shared here. Either one is a coward. Just more evidence of a crap organization.

And finally, i expect the monitors to remove the coded words or posts entirely from this thread.


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## justink440 (Jan 14, 2014)

miko0618.....what do you mean by your statements? it clearly sounds that you arent a fan of the IBO?


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

Yes, thats clear.


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## BTShooter (Jan 27, 2008)

Mike - agreed. The local folks know what you're talking about and the organization acted cowardly.


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## penn state (Jan 5, 2007)

I shoot MBR and shooter numbers are down. I remember when there were several hundred shooters in the class. But then the hunter class was created,after that the money hunter class was added which became the AHC. Now we have senior hunter and Master hunter classes. My opinion on adding another class is that we don't need it. MBR is the highest level pin class....PERIOD! I do however think that the IBO needs an open A and open B class. I say make open A...50 yd max and open B...40 yd max. All shooters in all classes at a National or World event should pay a set fee and not have an option of being in for the money or not. We need to find ways to grow our sport instead of telling people to stay at home if they don't like something. We need positive ideas. I do think PEER grouping should be done at all National events. That's my 2 cents.


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

A Pro Hunter Class is like saying that you are a Professional Amateur...........I don't get it.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

penn state said:


> I shoot MBR and shooter numbers are down. I remember when there were several hundred shooters in the class. But then the hunter class was created,after that the money hunter class was added which became the AHC. Now we have senior hunter and Master hunter classes. My opinion on adding another class is that we don't need it. MBR is the highest level pin class....PERIOD! I do however think that the IBO needs an open A and open B class. I say make open A...50 yd max and open B...40 yd max. All shooters in all classes at a National or World event should pay a set fee and not have an option of being in for the money or not. We need to find ways to grow our sport instead of telling people to stay at home if they don't like something. We need positive ideas. I do think PEER grouping should be done at all National events. That's my 2 cents.


I agree with your ideas on a open a and b and also on the idea of every one paying to shoot for cash payout great idea some one should start a petition for this I think it would have more interest and way less people against the idea


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I've been saying that for a long time about open. Abc open classes . 40/45/50 yards.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Years ago we did peers at erie and ohio.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

I think peer groups are a good thing also if you look at scores when peer groups are happening for some reason they are rarely as high as they are with out I'm not causing anybody of anything it could just be added pressure of shooting with the best of the best in your class but that is what makes it a real competition


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Don't forget to look for petition at ibo Marengo this weekend.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

T&A said:


> I think peer groups are a good thing also if you look at scores when peer groups are happening for some reason they are rarely as high as they are with out I'm not causing anybody of anything it could just be added pressure of shooting with the best of the best in your class but that is what makes it a real competition


Some years ago I did some research of IBO tournament results from a period of years. What I found at the very least gave the appearance of impropriety! A lot of people scored no higher or lower at the World Championships as they did in the Triple Crown but there a number of people that averaged considerably lower score at World's than they did in the Triple crown shoots. This is NOT to say anyone cheated at any time but the _appearance_ impropriety was there.

Over the years I know of a couple of guys that shot VERY good scores in local tournaments. But when the other good shooters insisted on shooting with them their scores were miserable at best. Once they realized they were no longer going to be able to shoot without an outsider present they realized people were on to them. They quit competitive archery altogether. This kind of behavior gives the appearance that they were cheating. One guy recently was really blatant. He would always shoot up when shooting in his little group but would shot 20 or more *down *when an outsider was present!

Just the _appearance _ of cheating can sour the game for other archers. Even if it's all on the up and up if something makes people wonder about the results it takes some of the fun out of the game. The better archers should try to shoot with other random archers when at all possible. It's good for the game when a better archer shoots with novice or newbies. It also prepares the better archer for when he shoots in a peer group at a tournament that is important to him.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

stoz said:


> Don't forget to look for petition at ibo Marengo this weekend.


Where can we find this I want to sign it for sure. Let's just say they didn't like what I said two weeks ago and got me pulled from another organization I did volunteer work for.


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## #1phinsfan (Jan 8, 2009)

So I'm new to ibo and competitive archery. In fact this is my first year and I've shot everyone since WV. I personally LOVE every minute of it. Now just a few things I've read on this thread that I'm not understanding ( again I'm new) but first, about the move out rule. I read recently on the ibo website if you win any two of these events in HC you have to move up. So isn't that a " move up rule"? Next is this peer group. It's currently listed on their website of the peer groups this weekend, so I guess I'm not understanding that part. With that said in a little concerned with the comments of buddies shooting together. If this is try its rediculous. I travel with 3 other HC guys and we are on a team and shoot for the same shop and when we give our cards at the tent they split us up, so how is the buddy thing happening? Like I said I'm new to it but I love the ibo, the people I meet and everything about it. Oh ya and what other sport in the world can you just walk by a pro or watch them shoot 3 feet away, or go talk to them as their walking around. If you all are that miserable it might not be the ibo it may just be you and your abilities, ever thought of that?


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

turkeywhisperer said:


> Where can we find this I want to sign it for sure. Let's just say they didn't like what I said two weeks ago and got me pulled from another organization I did volunteer work for.


I will be at Stan both with it or see Wes Vanhorn I believe at dead center archery or Matt Kennedy.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

#1phinsfan said:


> So I'm new to ibo and competitive archery. In fact this is my first year and I've shot everyone since WV. I personally LOVE every minute of it. Now just a few things I've read on this thread that I'm not understanding ( again I'm new) but first, about the move out rule. I read recently on the ibo website if you win any two of these events in HC you have to move up. So isn't that a " move up rule"? Next is this peer group. It's currently listed on their website of the peer groups this weekend, so I guess I'm not understanding that part. With that said in a little concerned with the comments of buddies shooting together. If this is try its rediculous. I travel with 3 other HC guys and we are on a team and shoot for the same shop and when we give our cards at the tent they split us up, so how is the buddy thing happening? Like I said I'm new to it but I love the ibo, the people I meet and everything about it. Oh ya and what other sport in the world can you just walk by a pro or watch them shoot 3 feet away, or go talk to them as their walking around. If you all are that miserable it might not be the ibo it may just be you and your abilities, ever thought of that?


Wish I was at computer to better see your post but here goes. Hunter and female hunter are only classes with move out rules. It is responsibility of group to bust them selves although every shoot I've been to they bust them.I agree there are many pros available to help anyone who asks them. Welcome to this sport, been shooting 3d since 93 and have made many good friends. Stop by Stan booth and say hi. I love to help any way I can.


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

Ibo could make a class for everyone..... That way everyone could win!!! Mbr had 600 shooters at one time, the reason numbers are low in it is because there has been several classes created for people. Should be a pins class, open class, semi pro and pro that's it. Put your big boy pants on and go compete and see where ya finish.... If it don't go good practice some more. The top shooters in the world don't have special powers they practice and work hard for success. The way it is now if someone wins something it's so watered down with all the freakin classes!!!!


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## meloy10 (Feb 3, 2014)

I'll be stopping by the Stan booth with at least 3 others. Personally, with enough time money and practice I would like to move to MBO next year and shoot a bulk of the ASA events as well but I think there were some very very good points made in this posts about progressive things the IBO could do that should very well be considered. 

Just my 2 cents......


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

meloy10 said:


> I'll be stopping by the Stan booth with at least 3 others. Personally, with enough time money and practice I would like to move to MBO next year and shoot a bulk of the ASA events as well but I think there were some very very good points made in this posts about progressive things the IBO could do that should very well be considered.
> 
> Just my 2 cents......


Stop by ask for Scott. I will be there hopefully most of fri. Shooting peers sat.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

Droptine said:


> Ibo could make a class for everyone..... That way everyone could win!!! Mbr had 600 shooters at one time, the reason numbers are low in it is because there has been several classes created for people. Should be a pins class, open class, semi pro and pro that's it. Put your big boy pants on and go compete and see where ya finish.... If it don't go good practice some more. The top shooters in the world don't have special powers they practice and work hard for success. The way it is now if someone wins something it's so watered down with all the freakin classes!!!!


Go see where you stand in your class at the ASA and see how watered down it is!


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

I have shot asa, id say somewhere around 30-35 shoots. Id say ive shot that many ibo's also! I was one mathews prostaff for 7 yrs and won ibo worlds in mbr, several top 3's in semi pro and a top 5 in pro. :wink:


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

ASA has more classes then IBO and they aren't watered down because money isn't a option. I figured you were someone that hardly shoots like most of the people on archery talk.


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

No problem, im kinda old school and dont like change. I hate see'n the low numbers in classes. There was a guy that won mbr worlds in the 90's that lived close by me and there was around 600 shooters. I won it in 04 and i think in was 289. Now there isnt even a 100 in that class.


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

A lot of them moved up to higher classes but I bet the total number of shooters I down not just because they are spread out. I've heard numbers over 2000 shooters years ago now they can't break 1300.


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

Yea the total number of shooters is lower now. I think they also didnt pay money then in mbo or mbr other than the worlds. I guess its a waste of time talkin about how it was in the 90's but makes me think that all the changes and new classes might not have been the right thing to do. If a guy could say he won a tournament with 600 people in the class then i say he could stick his chest out a little!


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## turkeywhisperer (Dec 10, 2010)

The number doesn't matter to me it's the course difficulty. When they make the course long and hard to judge and even is the high mark for the class shooting high makes it better then anything. You cant beat someone else until you beat the course and yourself.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Im very sorry to have to be the one to say this but the idea of a "pro" hunter class is preposterous. Pro is Pro, any equipment. ANY, and the highest of experience level. Pins and short stabs can shoot there, if its not advantageous enough for you you can shoot a scope and clicker sight too! The pro ranks are thin as it is, we should not be dividing them further. I have little experience(but still some) with the IBO, but repeat winners and top finishers should be moved from HC to AHC (like they do) and AHC to MBR then MBR to MBO and up. I re iterate mbO is ANY equipment, includeing pins if your more comfortable shooting them. 
The biggest problem archery in general has is defining classes by what is hanging on your bow and little to no definition of YOUR class by your experience in the game. This si what sets the ASA apart from the rest of the org in my opinion. Classes are ALL defined by your tracked experience.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

There should be a Pro pin class, I don't know about Pro hunter though. They should make it same rules as MBR except 50 yd max and pro fees and payouts. All Pro classes are 50 yd and this should be no different.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Thanks to all who supported the petition this weekend. We are well on our way to having enough signatures all ready with just this weekend. Looks like the majority of shooters support the idea. Didn't have one person tell me it was a bad idea. Thanks again.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Droptine said:


> Ibo could make a class for everyone..... That way everyone could win!!! Mbr had 600 shooters at one time, the reason numbers are low in it is because there has been several classes created for people. Should be a pins class, open class, semi pro and pro that's it. Put your big boy pants on and go compete and see where ya finish.... If it don't go good practice some more. The top shooters in the world don't have special powers they practice and work hard for success. The way it is now if someone wins something it's so watered down with all the freakin classes!!!!


The _total _numbers are down. It's not really important which class is bigger or smaller. What is important is the TOTAL number of archer at a tournament.

There were ONLY 27 in PMR in Marengo. There were only 14 in PFR and 28 in PSR. The ASA has at least twice those numbers and has more shoots.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Its nice to praise the ASA but they do not have a presence in the North east. Most of us our on a limited budget and limited vacation time and traveling to ASA events from NY is not an option. I'm sure I'd enjoy it, except for the assembly line style courses.


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## osagebender (Feb 24, 2013)

If IBO is for bowhunting why not have a class at the highest level. The pro class now has nothing to do with hunting. Nothing wrong with open setups, but the fact is IBO is to promote hunting. It would be cool to see what all the pro's could do with hunting setups. Could they shoot better then VanHorn?


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## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

Sixteen of the Thirty Three IBO classes offered this past weekend had less than 15 shooters. Ten classes had 10 or fewer competitor's. The ASA has similar problems as well. I don't believe adding another class will increase participation to help the sport grow. If anything reducing the total number of classes and adding flights might be the answer.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

NYS REP said:


> Sixteen of the Thirty Three IBO classes offered this past weekend had less than 15 shooters. Ten classes had 10 or fewer competitor's. The ASA has similar problems as well. I don't believe adding another class will increase participation to help the sport grow. If anything reducing the total number of classes and adding flights might be the answer.


Bingo I think you hit the nail on the head


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

NYS REP said:


> Sixteen of the Thirty Three IBO classes offered this past weekend had less than 15 shooters. Ten classes had 10 or fewer competitor's. The ASA has similar problems as well. I don't believe adding another class will increase participation to help the sport grow. If anything reducing the total number of classes and adding flights might be the answer.


"Flights" are a joke! It would be more fun to award the winners and then have a drawing for door prizes. I guess the door prizes could be medals, plaques or trophies that say 1st, 2nd and 3rd. But I think adults should not need to "win" an award that wasn't won.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

osagebender said:


> If IBO is for bowhunting why not have a class at the highest level. The pro class now was nothing to do with hunting. Nothing wrong with open setups, but the fact is IBO is to promote hunting. It would be cool to see what all the pro's could do with hunting setups. Could they shoot better then VanHorn?


VanHorn used to shoot pro and semi pro not long ago. In an Open class you can shoot any setup you wish, shoot short stabs and pins in PMR or MBO why add a class for 10 guys to shoot for $100?
Yez they support hunting. A national level shoot has nothing to do with hunting, its an archery competition using targets.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> "Flights" are a joke! It would be more fun to award the winners and then have a drawing for door prizes. I guess the door prizes could be medals, plaques or trophies that say 1st, 2nd and 3rd. But I think adults should not need to "win" an award that wasn't won.


I agree, never understood the flight system. Here's your participation award.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Seems to me more classes with money payout is a good thing. Semi pro is paying out pretty good with not many more shooters than ahc.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

3D Archery is the only sports I can think of that has digressed over the years instead of grow...The ASA has shown growth over the last few years but besides numbers it has not grown in a way is should have...Classes should be reduced by at least half or more in both organizations...What everyone forgets is these are National Tournaments but are treated as large backyard shoots where everyone wants a class and a trophy... If in the beginning when competitive archery begin more attention would have been placed on state and regional tournaments and clubs by the organizations more people could learn the game at this level and compete as beginners and when ready compete at a national event with the top shooters in the world....the only classes you need at national tournaments are

Men-Women-Senior 
Pro
Semi
Open
Pins

And youth classes for boys and girls 

Learn and grow at the local level and compete at a high level against the best at national events


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

you r right state and regional shoots dont mean anything anymoe


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

So why is asa growing . They have many classes. I have done this since early 90's and the reason for lower numbers is the cost. Gas cost more equipment has doubled in price and economy is not good. Certainly has nothing to do with number of classes. I think if people have a chance to be competitive they f ome. I have heard alot why should I go I'm just donating to so and so. Im not saying make a million classes but.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

ASA has a strict move up on every class based on money won. They have a speed rule. Everyone shoots same time no buddies shooting together. They actually inspect equipment based on their rules. They have a lower entry fee with a huge payback. 
They have alot of classes yes, but if your any good you wont be in a bottom tier class long.


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## #1phinsfan (Jan 8, 2009)

I can't beleive this thread has become such a huge deal. If you hate ibo and love Asa then don't shoot ibo it's that simple. And as for pro hunter class, no one said you have to sign up for it. If you don't want to then sign up for regular HC. This is not a big deal in my eyes. If you don't feel like your ready for it then don't but I bet with a chance at money you will see a lot of the top guys go up to shoot it. I haven't finished better than 32 all year but I still think I can compete and I'm probably gonna give it a shot. Like I said earlier I've only shot ibo but I definately have had nothing but great times at all these shoots. Maybe I'm missing something and it's a horrible organization but until it happens I'm gonna ride this thing out cause I'm having a blast!


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

#1phinsfan said:


> I can't beleive this thread has become such a huge deal. If you hate ibo and love Asa then don't shoot ibo it's that simple. And as for pro hunter class, no one said you have to sign up for it. If you don't want to then sign up for regular HC. This is not a big deal in my eyes. If you don't feel like your ready for it then don't but I bet with a chance at money you will see a lot of the top guys go up to shoot it. I haven't finished better than 32 all year but I still think I can compete and I'm probably gonna give it a shot. Like I said earlier I've only shot ibo but I definately have had nothing but great times at all these shoots. Maybe I'm missing something and it's a horrible organization but until it happens I'm gonna ride this thing out cause I'm having a blast!


Well said. ......


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## caskins269 (Jul 31, 2008)

stoz said:


> Well said. ......


I second that !!!!!!


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