# Archery Industry Prices Too High?



## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

The market will dictate whether they are too high or not. People either buy the products, the manufacturers lower the prices, or they stop making them altogether.


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## rok1167 (Sep 20, 2007)

Top end gear is ridiculously expensive, out of control and it’s annoying. But there’s a lot of good stuff at the reasonable economy level. People aren’t getting priced out of the sport.


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## mnarcheri (Sep 16, 2018)

Yes. It is. When a lousy set of arrows is $300 for a half a dozen, there is an issue. That’s $50 for one arrow, before it’s fletched up and everything. And the Lone Wolf tree stand... I don’t know one person who, no matter how wealthy, would justify that kind of money for that.


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## Blackeagle1 (Aug 19, 2014)

5MilesBack said:


> The market will dictate whether they are too high or not. People either buy the products, the manufacturers lower the prices, or they stop making them altogether.


Exactly. They can charge what they want. If people will pay it, who’s fault is it?


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## Boomstick300 (Feb 21, 2012)

mnarcheri said:


> Yes. It is. When a lousy set of arrows is $300 for a half a dozen, there is an issue. That’s $50 for one arrow, before it’s fletched up and everything. And the Lone Wolf tree stand... I don’t know one person who, no matter how wealthy, would justify that kind of money for that.


Did you listen to the podcast? I don’t work in the industry but I am a consumer like everyone else that hunts on a budget. Had my jaw drop a few times when I saw some of these prices. However, GP laid it all out pretty well on why and he would argue the consumer is part to blame. 


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

I still have my Lone Wolf stand that I bought in the early 90's. It was expensive. When I started using it I realized why. Quality,silent,light weight. 25 years latter,I still have it. That's just one example. You get what you pay for. I don't need Sitka gear. My hunting clothes are old and worn. But the things I need to last and want to hold up. I don't complain about price. 

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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

Name something in retail today that is not expensive? Archery is no different.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Boomstick300 said:


> However, GP laid it all out pretty well on why and he would argue the consumer is part to blame.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did listen to the podcast. 

If that is the case that the consumer is to blame you have a pretty bad business model.

Businesses either evolve or go away when a consumer base starts to change.


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## Adam634 (Jan 2, 2013)

deadturkey said:


> I still have my Lone Wolf stand that I bought in the early 90's. It was expensive. When I started using it I realized why. Quality,silent,light weight. 25 years latter,I still have it. That's just one example. You get what you pay for. I don't need Sitka gear. My hunting clothes are old and worn. But the things I need to last and want to hold up. I don't complain about price.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I agree to some extent I buy quality where I need to also. I haven’t been taken back by a ton of the prices, pretty much just sights, and the damn mobile trees stands. $1000 for a stand and sticks is a nuts I really hope people don’t buy into it and they fall on there ass a bit and realize we aren’t gonna fall for that bull****


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## Rshwisdom (Dec 30, 2018)

It's the world we live in. Everyone has to keep up with Jones's, bowhunting has become a fashion statement just like everything else. Guys have to have the newest bows and the nicest gear just to keep up with there buddy or there neighbor or the guy at the hunting club. Guys think they have to have the same gear the sponsored guy on tv has to go kill a critter. Most of the guys on tv get there bows and gear for free or at a huge discount for that very marketing reason. The sad thing is a lot of people can't afford this high dollar new equipment every year but they have a credit card in there wallet that makes them think they can.


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## luciogod (Feb 9, 2015)

Just insane like the golf gear..
I look for deals whenever I can and I mostly buy used now depending of what I need.

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## trial153 (Nov 27, 2011)

crossbows are killing archery.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

I don't think most of the gear is over priced, but I come from manufacturing and have a lot of experience in retail. I think federal. state and local taxes, liability insurance, workers comp, energy, insurance on inventory, rent and capital costs on equipment, not to mention increased cost of materials are the drivers, as long as your willingness to buy the latest/greatest And look at how many of you rush out and are able to buy a new bow or more every year! I think the shame is how quickly you discard the last years latest and greatest because you fall for the Marketing BS with a 2 fps IBO rating or a new camo pattern and sell the bow for half price (thank you by the way).
You don't have to buy any of this stuff, it's all for fun, remember that! I remember when a bow came from a stave of aged hickory and the only reference was the Boy Scout merit badge manual. No advertising, internet, trade show, Youtube test results/reviews, etc. This is a first world problem! As long as you are buying American, this is all good IMO.


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

luciogod said:


> Just insane, I look for deals whenever I can and I mostly buy used now depending of what I need.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


X2, I've found that in general you can save in the 40% range if you are patient. I also ask myself "Man that's cool, but is it really going to help me get better, be safer, or work less hard?".

Archery equip is kind of like smart phones today, wow, OMG the new phone will let me connect in .00032 secs unlike my old one which connects in .00033 sec.........................


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

luciogod said:


> Just insane like the golf gear..
> I look for deals whenever I can and I mostly buy used now depending of what I need.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


I had a friend of mine tell me a storybthe other day. He was talking with a business acquaintance of his that has a machine shop. He was telling my friend J that he wanted to make archery products. My friend said good luck you won’t make any money. The machinist said he didn’t believe him. So J went out and grabbed his hog father off of his bow and asked what he think he would sell that for to make a livable profit and he said $1,000! That’s coming from a long time machinist with zero archery experience! These archery products, especially the high end ones, are extremely expensive to manufacture. That hog father probably costs nearly as much as many bows to make, yet it’s a fraction of the price.


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## Boomstick300 (Feb 21, 2012)

erdman41 said:


> I did listen to the podcast.
> 
> If that is the case that the consumer is to blame you have a pretty bad business model.
> 
> ...


I agree and Amazon proves this when it learned to capitalize on those voids. 


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## AntlerInsane83 (Jun 28, 2016)

Truth be told there is so pretty expensive things in the Archery world but there is also various different levels of prices and quality. Admittedly there is a pretty big difference between a $25 Walmart sight and a top end $400 sight but you have to decide what you need. One thing that is interesting is how much China is starting to infiltrate the archery market. I think it’s going to have a pretty dramatic effect on archery over the next few years. If you go to EBay right now and search Compound Bow the first 3 listings that come up are cheap Chinese bows and they have sold 1000’s of them. I feel like it’s either going to cause the current prices to go up so these American manufacturers can continue to make the profits they’re used to or they’re going to have to lower their prices to compete..


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## AntlerInsane83 (Jun 28, 2016)

erdman41 said:


> I did listen to the podcast.
> 
> If that is the case that the consumer is to blame you have a pretty bad business model.
> 
> ...



In fairness it’s pretty easy to argue that the “Archery business model” is grossly outdated and a pretty bad business model for the current economic times.


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## The Southpaw (Sep 22, 2015)

I mean, there are western hunters that pay $600 for a backpack and $2K for a spotting scope. Compared to that, an $800 mobile tree stand setup, that is catered to people who do nothing but run and gun, is not really that bad.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Great podcast - GP is the best there is - but unfortunately, this isn't a new complaint. All these same complaints: bow prices are too high, shops are going under and being undercut, manufacturers are gouging us and on and on, are as old as the commercial availability of the compound bow itself. Even in The Good Old Days (the mid 80's or thereabouts), when I first started shooting and at the dawn of the commercial internet, I heard all these same exact complaints. Bows were too pricey at $600-1000, or whatever the prices were, for the top end models, the manufacturers were sitting on mountain ranges of Gold from fleecing all of us by price gouging, and the archery industry is doomed, and we need to wake up and somebody by god needs to do something about this. 

So, I'm sympathetic, but after 30+ years of hearing it at least 30 times and probably much more, this same story isn't the same attention-grabber for me that it might have been Way Back When.

The truth is the same today as in the past. In real dollars, a dollar buys you about the same amount of bow, arrow and/or accessory as it did back in The Good Old Days. In fact, more, given that today's bows are hugely better than the bows of The Good Old Days. Only in nominal dollars have the prices gone up, due to a) the decline in the value of the dollar and b) inflation. Our nominal salaries have stayed about the same, maybe gone up a little, but in real dollars have gone down a bunch. That makes the pain of a high-end bow purchase worse. But the actual costs of all the stuff in archery is in reality about the same. That's how it was 30 years ago compared to the past at that particular time too.

So you always have to look behind the curtain when you hear the bows-are-too-expensive and shops-are-killing-themselves and the manufacturers-are-getting-richer-than-Apple-off-our-stupidity complaints. They're as old as the hills. The story isn't as simple as that and it has a long history. Sure I hated having to pay $1200 for my shootdown this past summer, but I hated having to pay what I paid for new bows 30 years ago too (can't remember what that figure was, that was ancient history  ). The more things change, the more they stay the same....

lee.


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

trial153 said:


> crossbows are killing archery.


100%

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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

trial153 said:


> crossbows are killing archery.


No doubt


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## Wenty (Jan 6, 2012)

Everyone and their brother is driving around in fuel hog 1 ton diesels!! Building 2nd homes! Spending. I suppose the price of archery gear is high. Purchased groceries lately? Along with health care and every other single aspect of life. 
Economics....if we got the money...

The economy is CRANKING! If people dont have the money right now...dont buy! But you wont find me complaining about the economy right now. Thankful!


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## roosterstraw (Dec 9, 2015)

I have read the comment "Hunting will become a rich mans sport" several times over on this thread. I've always brushed it to the side considering it as people just complaining. After the recent ATA show I firmly believe it is heading in that direction. It wont stop until we stop buying the latest and greatest. The problem is people think if they buy the next great product it will help them kill bigger deer. When it comes down to it, most of it wont. LWCG is asking $500 for a stand that I don't see is that much greater than their assault stand. Is the four pounds really worth an extra $250? Where do we go from here? Same with the new Easton arrows. Is a tapered shaft really worth $166 more dollars? I can guarantee you can do the same thing with a 5mm fmj as you can with the new fmj 64. 90% of us aren't "professionals", we are blue collar workers who do this as a hobby, we don't need a $900 stand/stick combo, we can do everything we need with a $400 setup. Maybe we all really need is a little more practice with out current setups.


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## timmymac24 (Sep 4, 2008)

As a previous post stated I research the item(s) to death then patiently wait to buy used the depreciation in the archery world is crazy


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## wildernessninja (Aug 9, 2013)

The Southpaw said:


> I mean, there are western hunters that pay $600 for a backpack and $2K for a spotting scope. Compared to that, an $800 mobile tree stand setup, that is catered to people who do nothing but run and gun, is not really that bad.


I agree. The run and gun hunter or the guy that paid a thousand plus for a lease he lost and now has to run and gun public would get into something like this. If i was a single man and spent every moment i could hunting vast amounts of public land i would invest in the setup.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

roosterstraw said:


> I have read the comment "Hunting will become a rich mans sport" several times over on this thread. I've always brushed it to the side considering it as people just complaining. After the recent ATA show I firmly believe it is heading in that direction. It wont stop until we stop buying the latest and greatest. The problem is people think if they buy the next great product it will help them kill bigger deer. When it comes down to it, most of it wont. LWCG is asking $500 for a stand that I don't see is that much greater than their assault stand. Is the four pounds really worth an extra $250? Where do we go from here? Same with the new Easton arrows. Is a tapered shaft really worth $166 more dollars? I can guarantee you can do the same thing with a 5mm fmj as you can with the new fmj 64. 90% of us aren't "professionals", we are blue collar workers who do this as a hobby, we don't need a $900 stand/stick combo, we can do everything we need with a $400 setup. Maybe we all really need is a little more practice with out current setups.


Once again you can’t complain about the prices of the latest and greatest and most expensive. Do you drive a Ferrari or a 1 ton diesel truck that is fully loaded with every single option? I’d love to be able to afford a $80k truck but a 15k is my budget. If a $1500 bow isn’t in your budget maybe a $500 one is. Maybe an $80 tree stand is more up your ally. I shoot a flagship bow but I won’t oaycover $120 for a treestand. I don’t need the latest and greatest stand and until I can’t afford an entry level item I’m not going to complain about the prices.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Year 2000. The Hoyt UltraTec was a top end bow. I bought one new, ordered it. Told there was a waiting period - like Selling Like Hotcakes. At the time I was told $605.61 plus tax. So ole Patient me waited and waited and waited. Dealer told me it was ridiculous, the waiting period and quoted me $599.00. And I waited and waited. Bow finally came in and dealer felt bad and knocked the price down to $569.00 and tax. And what's Hoyt's top end bow today, $2000 plus? Abby Archery - 6 showing $2045.41 (base price showing - $2,249.95. Bunch of $$$$$$$$..... 3 1/2 times or 3.9 times (take your pick) what I paid in 2000.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

The price of flagship hunting bows has been pretty stable for awhile, right around the 1k mark, excluding the carbon options.
The price of some accessories is more shocking than the cost of bows. This also seemed to be the year for arrows to take
a couple of steps up on the price ladder. It won't take long for $299 a dozen to become the new normal price for arrows.


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

5MilesBack said:


> The market will dictate whether they are too high or not. People either buy the products, the manufacturers lower the prices, or they stop making them altogether.


THIS^^^^

If the price is too high, we will stop buying for a period of time and prices will come down... But we won't stop


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## Adam634 (Jan 2, 2013)

sneak1413 said:


> I had a friend of mine tell me a storybthe other day. He was talking with a business acquaintance of his that has a machine shop. He was telling my friend J that he wanted to make archery products. My friend said good luck you won’t make any money. The machinist said he didn’t believe him. So J went out and grabbed his hog father off of his bow and asked what he think he would sell that for to make a livable profit and he said $1,000! That’s coming from a long time machinist with zero archery experience! These archery products, especially the high end ones, are extremely expensive to manufacture. That hog father probably costs nearly as much as many bows to make, yet it’s a fraction of the price.


That in no way adds up, how in the world would anybody be in business if they are running a deficit just to produce a product that you can’t sell at that cost. 
I don’t believe for one second that it cost machinist or these companies that much to make accessories or bows, every dealer I’ve ever known always say his biggest profit centers are service work and selling accessories


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## Adam634 (Jan 2, 2013)

The Southpaw said:


> I mean, there are western hunters that pay $600 for a backpack and $2K for a spotting scope. Compared to that, an $800 mobile tree stand setup, that is catered to people who do nothing but run and gun, is not really that bad.


$600 backpacks are ridiculous also but one good thing about them is they don’t depreciate that much


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## George Charles (Oct 18, 2012)

What is interesting is how the Retail Industry manipulates the consumer. Just a few years ago the majority of archers were talking about bow prices were too high at an average of $750.00. Now, today that average is $ 1000.00. The EXTREME high priced equipment ($1700.00+bows, $200.00 rests, etc.) allows the Manufacturers to quietly raise prices on the majority of the rest w/o consumers even noticing. For example, the New Ripcord Lok rest is selling for $200.00 while just 3 years ago I purchased their featured rest for $89.00. The same rest I paid $89.00 3 years ago is now $120.00+ & most guys will see that as a deal. As far as depreciation goes, it is all the same. Guys are buying 2 year old equipment for more than New equipment as little as 5 years ago.


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## Wenty (Jan 6, 2012)

I find this topic funny as hell. On top of my previous economy based comment...

I did radio, we had a outdoor based show. We would do to our listeners what the "big gp" is doing here. Touch a nerve. It gains listeners. Play to their emotions, it gains listeners!! We didn't even believe what we were saying, it was a show. Remember that.

When the mics were off we would laugh. Like sheep they'd call in!! Before you knew it it was like this...20 people calling in and complaining about the topic we didn't even believe in or it was complete BS in the first place. Lmao!!! Good times. 

And before you know it we are all talking about the "Big GP" and his podcast. Lol...nicely done!


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Year 2000. The Hoyt UltraTec was a top end bow. I bought one new, ordered it. Told there was a waiting period - like Selling Like Hotcakes. At the time I was told $605.61 plus tax. So ole Patient me waited and waited and waited. Dealer told me it was ridiculous, the waiting period and quoted me $599.00. And I waited and waited. Bow finally came in and dealer felt bad and knocked the price down to $569.00 and tax. And what's Hoyt's top end bow today, $2000 plus? Abby Archery - 6 showing $2045.41 (base price showing - $2,249.95. Bunch of $$$$$$$$..... 3 1/2 times or 3.9 times 9take your pick) what I paid in 2000.


You can compare an Ultra tech with Hoyts Elite series bows. I haven't seen any Hoyt listed for over 2K plus. $1799 is the
most any Hoyt is listed for on Lancasters website. I think you also need to shop a little closer to home instead quoting bow
prices from Australian archery shops.


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## Boomstick300 (Feb 21, 2012)

Wenty said:


> I find this topic funny as hell. On top of my previous economy based comment...
> 
> I did radio, we had a outdoor based show. We would do to our listeners what the "big gp" is doing here. Touch a nerve. It gains listeners. Play to their emotions, it gains listeners!! We didn't even believe what we were saying, it was a show. Remember that.
> 
> ...


I think you are looking too much into it. I think he did the podcast in advance of the ATA because he knew what was coming! 
My take on the podcast was he probably gets sick of the whining, about how manufacturers are just trying to screw people-because these forums are full of those comments. With that being said I believe his intentions were to educate a few on why prices are what they are instead of the overly simplistic notion that they just want your money!
You say he did the podcast for dramatic flare and to strike a nerve. Every dialog, conversation, radio show, or podcast has the potential for this no matter the subject. Fixed vs mechanical, Mathews vs Hoyt, fixed pin vs slider, etc. 



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## Gregbell232 (Dec 27, 2012)

I remember when I bought my first "pro line" bow. I walked into the shop and spent almost every dime of my $2,000 bonus. I bought a Z7 + sight + stab + arrows + release + case. 

I compare it to mtn biking. If a friend tells me that they really want to get into Mtn Biking, I dont tell them to go to Walmart and buy a bike and gear. If they are serious, it takes a serious investment. Obviously buying used, online new, etc. can help but you are going to make a significant investment.

For a company that produces both mainline and proline bows (PSE, Bowtech, etc.), I'd be curious to know how much more production cost goes into a proline bow.


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## Bowman1989 (Sep 12, 2018)

No offense but a lot of these posts sound like guys whining because they can’t afford to buy all the latest and greatest. I personally hadn’t bought a new bow in 15 years until I ordered one 2 weeks ago. You know why because idc what everyone else shoots. Everything I buy is for me and not to impress others. If I used hang on stands I would buy the lone wolf if I wanted it. I don’t replace my hunting items every year even though I can easily afford to do so. I get a new decked out truck every year for only two reasons, I can afford it and because I like to. Guys that want to drive a beater more power to them but don’t bash the guy that likes having the new shiny toys every year either.


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

Archery is a pretty cheap hobby compared to most. I would think prices will continue to climb.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

Life is expensive period! Most of us judge the guy next to us but given the opportunity to own the latest and greatest bow, car or whatever with no real consequences we would. 

Cost of living is just high as a whole. Facts are this. If you can’t afford something don’t buy it. But just because you don’t buy it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. The drive behind buying has changed from personal purposes to just to show what I got - social media. All of us do it, some worse than others. 

It is ridiculous that new F250 $80k but I see them on the regular miffed and tricked out weeks after they come out. So some is and will buy if you don’t. Or these manufacturers would go out of business. Fact is they continue to make these things and go bigger because the reaction (is buying) is so great they are trying to put dur the last thing. 

We are also in a time where majority of people are living out of their means. But that’s why the craziness continues we are saying making these ridiculous priced items are ok. And the masses have basically said this and not by their words but with our actions. 

I will say although the prices are higher the quality is incomparable. Modern creations do much more and are much improved is it worth it? That’s up to us individually decide. 

I mean in high school nobody had a cell phone and now my entire family does $300 expense almost required now that wasn’t than. 

I feel like I need it for my kids as terrible as this world has gotten. Just my .2


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

If the economy is as good as I hear, why would prices go down?


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

COArrow said:


> If the economy is as good as I hear, why would prices go down?


If you were selling a product at top notch price and people were paying it why the heck would you drop it? Its reversed now... They make it bigger than charge more nobody simplifies anymore...


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

OCHO505 said:


> If you were selling a product at top notch price and people were paying it why the heck would you drop it? Its reversed now... They make it bigger than charge more nobody simplifies anymore...


I was just playing, but can’t see why prices would go down. Still very affordable hobby.


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## LoneAggie (Jan 10, 2005)

Inflation. Relatively prices haven’t gone up much. Goods go up and incomes lag.... inflation. R&D on some of this gear is outrageous. We live in a society where the life of a product generation is about 18 months. Archery isn’t really any different than many other sporting goods. I’m always at a loss how they innovate and iterate golf clubs. The only way is expensive materials and more expensive manufacturing. I budget quite a bit for my archery / bowhunting addiction, but it’s my only hobby.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Chinese manufacturers love seeing these high prices. All it's going to do is blow up the influx of Chinese made products and copycats. Already seeing it on the traditional side. You have Chinese made risers and limbs selling complete ILF bows for 175-200.00 that perform better than a 850.000 Hoyt Satori or Black Widow. 

If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese compound bow adds love proclaiming that they're using US Gordon Glass limbs.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

highwaynorth said:


> The price of flagship hunting bows has been pretty stable for awhile, right around the 1k mark, excluding the carbon options.
> The price of some accessories is more shocking than the cost of bows. This also seemed to be the year for arrows to take
> a couple of steps up on the price ladder. It won't take long for $299 a dozen to become the new normal price for arrows.


For sure.
I just got though taking some ancient ACC's off the rack to shoot this year. 
I'll quit before paying the new normal.


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## wolfseason (Nov 9, 2006)

No one is forced to purchase 1300.00 bows,300.00 arrows, 400.00 sights ect ect. Plenty of quality cheaper options. I purchased a new xcentric 7 pro this year 500.00 I would shoot it against any 1000.00 bow I've owned. Point is value and quality can be had with research. Found a new HHA tetra on sale next day. I think more companies are making quality price point options than ever before.

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## Rob5589 (Apr 28, 2013)

Things are priced where they sell. If they didn't the price would come down. Some people just don't believe they can hunt and kill stuff with low or mid priced gear. It is Jan 13 and people are already clamoring for new bows, to replace the 2018 they bought barely a year ago. Bowhunting is as cheap or expensive as you make it.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

Adam634 said:


> That in no way adds up, how in the world would anybody be in business if they are running a deficit just to produce a product that you can’t sell at that cost.
> I don’t believe for one second that it cost machinist or these companies that much to make accessories or bows, every dealer I’ve ever known always say his biggest profit centers are service work and selling accessories


I never said it was. Companies have special processes in place in order to make stuff cheaper. OEM shops run different than job shops do. That particular machinist couldn’t believe that there was any profit in that sight at $400. There obviously is but it’s not what the general public think it is.


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

Gregbell232 said:


> I remember when I bought my first "pro line" bow. I walked into the shop and spent almost every dime of my $2,000 bonus. I bought a Z7 + sight + stab + arrows + release + case.
> 
> I compare it to mtn biking. If a friend tells me that they really want to get into Mtn Biking, I dont tell them to go to Walmart and buy a bike and gear. If they are serious, it takes a serious investment. Obviously buying used, online new, etc. can help but you are going to make a significant investment.
> 
> For a company that produces both mainline and proline bows (PSE, Bowtech, etc.), I'd be curious to know how much more production cost goes into a proline bow.


This is where I feel a lot of people waste money, In the PSE line you have the Evolve and the Response. Both have the same limbs, cams,strings and aluminum risers. About the only difference is composite limb pockets vs machined and the cable guard. There is no way it cost PSE $300 more to build the Evolve, I would guess there is not a $5 difference so I guess they are making enough profit on one to carry the other at a lot less margin.


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

Gregbell232 said:


> I remember when I bought my first "pro line" bow. I walked into the shop and spent almost every dime of my $2,000 bonus. I bought a Z7 + sight + stab + arrows + release + case.
> 
> I compare it to mtn biking. If a friend tells me that they really want to get into Mtn Biking, I dont tell them to go to Walmart and buy a bike and gear. If they are serious, it takes a serious investment. Obviously buying used, online new, etc. can help but you are going to make a significant investment.
> 
> For a company that produces both mainline and proline bows (PSE, Bowtech, etc.), I'd be curious to know how much more production cost goes into a proline bow.


Yes, that is why I feel archery is cheap. The rims on my mountain bike alone cost more than carbon flagship bows.


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## Gregbell232 (Dec 27, 2012)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Chinese manufacturers love seeing these high prices. All it's going to do is blow up the influx of Chinese made products and copycats. Already seeing it on the traditional side. You have Chinese made risers and limbs selling complete ILF bows for 175-200.00 that perform better than a 850.000 Hoyt Satori or Black Widow.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese compound bow adds love proclaiming that they're using US Gordon Glass limbs.


Yes. Chinese are dominant in Carbon Fiber. I would imagine soon higher end Chinese arrows making a dent in the industry. CF Risers and bow kits could really shake things up. I love that PSE CF is made in Utah (I think).


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

COArrow said:


> Yes, that is why I feel archery is cheap. The rims on my mountain bike alone cost more than carbon flagship bows.


A fellow biker. Awesome 

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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

Gregbell232 said:


> Yes. Chinese are dominant in Carbon Fiber. I would imagine soon higher end Chinese arrows making a dent in the industry. CF Risers and bow kits could really shake things up. I love that PSE CF is made in Utah (I think).


Chinese carbon has no safety standards. Again ,you will get what you pay for.

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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

Poor Prison Tat Poole used that podcast as an obvious attack on Lancaster Archery, which took away his ball. That’s all there is to it. And “big Cess” attacking Lancaster with a podcast is kind of like a guy with a fly swatter taking on an M1 Abrams tank. Cess is losing all his sponsors, for good reason. His numbers are way off, his polemic is pathetic.


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## wildernessninja (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregbell232 said:


> I remember when I bought my first "pro line" bow. I walked into the shop and spent almost every dime of my $2,000 bonus. I bought a Z7 + sight + stab + arrows + release + case.
> 
> I compare it to mtn biking. If a friend tells me that they really want to get into Mtn Biking, I dont tell them to go to Walmart and buy a bike and gear. If they are serious, it takes a serious investment. Obviously buying used, online new, etc. can help but you are going to make a significant investment.
> 
> For a company that produces both mainline and proline bows (PSE, Bowtech, etc.), I'd be curious to know how much more production cost goes into a proline bow.


Same thing when i was heavy into bmx. Top end components on America made and welded frame adds up quick. Shoot think my rear rim setup was between 4 or 5 hundred bucks. 
Listening to the podcast really made me think and alot of it made sense. There isn’t alot of stuff thats cheap anymore. Date night to the movies with the wife and a nice dinner could easy be a 100 bill. It is nice to see companies making price point bows. I would also like to know the difference in the lower end and higher end bows manufacturing.


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## eskimoohunt (Dec 21, 2008)

Well
I don’t mind the prices except on the carbon bows

The biggest problem is how much new stuff decreases in value the second you buy it

That’s the painful part

Worse than a damn car


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## 17ghk (Nov 11, 2009)

a fool and his money are soon separated. they can charge what they want but I'm not buying I'm retiring. thank god archery equipment prices tank after a couple of years.


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## wildernessninja (Aug 9, 2013)

17ghk said:


> a fool and his money are soon separated. they can charge what they want but I'm not buying I'm retiring. thank god archery equipment prices tank after a couple of years.


Was how i was able to upgrade this year. Got a deal on a left over 2017/18 bow.


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## rjack (Jan 14, 2007)

The bow I bought in 2006 was a Mathews Switchback and I paid $750. That is equal to today’s flagship bow given inflation. I’m confident I could buy a new Mathews for $939.50. 

So, bow prices have kept pace with inflation rates. 


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Don't buy.


I laugh all the way to the bank when I put on my $30 6 arrow kwikee quiver and then read how people are spending over $150 for two carbon rods and a two pieces of rubber.


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## rjack (Jan 14, 2007)

I failed to mention that I spent $1,500 that year setting up a new SW with a dozen GT Pro Hunters, Mathews rest, Tru Glo sight, sling, and release for a total of $1,500. That equals $1,878.99 in today’s economy. High end archery has been expensive for the past decade and then some. 


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## mgwelder (May 4, 2014)

As long as people keep buying, prices will keep going up.you dont need to have the latest and greatest to do well! This weekend I shot an indoor tournament with a 3 year old Bear hunting bow,store bought front stabilizer, but both backbars and mounting bracket were homemade, and I shot a 295/32X. I'm not patting myself on the back, but just saying it can be done on a budget. 

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## Blh archer (Apr 28, 2018)

Ford has many different models of the f150 from mid $20000 all the way up to $90000. The $90000 model is the flagship model. If you can’t afford the high end pickup you buy the lower end pickup. Both will transport you around, but one will do it with better style. 
Same way with bows, the ata is the bow companies way of showing off their latest and greatest accessories. Of course the prices are high! But these same companies all offer lower priced models that will do the same thing only with not as much style. 
If you can’t afford the high end don’t buy it! Buy the low end and the market will dictate.


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## Jabr357 (Apr 2, 2013)

I looked into buying a shrewd optum scope for my target bow - the final tally for scope, lens and accessories is over $320 !!! - just the scope, does not include sight or shipping 

Now I know it’s good quality but come on, this is getting out of hand!


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

pottergreg said:


> I don't think most of the gear is over priced, but I come from manufacturing and have a lot of experience in retail. I think federal. state and local taxes, liability insurance, workers comp, energy, insurance on inventory, rent and capital costs on equipment, not to mention increased cost of materials are the drivers, as long as your willingness to buy the latest/greatest And look at how many of you rush out and are able to buy a new bow or more every year! I think the shame is how quickly you discard the last years latest and greatest because you fall for the Marketing BS with a 2 fps IBO rating or a new camo pattern and sell the bow for half price (thank you by the way).
> You don't have to buy any of this stuff, it's all for fun, remember that! I remember when a bow came from a stave of aged hickory and the only reference was the Boy Scout merit badge manual. No advertising, internet, trade show, Youtube test results/reviews, etc. This is a first world problem! As long as you are buying American, this is all good IMO.


I don't really care what comes out at the ATA.....stands--I have several that work great....bows--I have two of the same 2017 model that shoot better than I do....arrows--stocked with Eastons Axis I bought on sale when the Match Grade came out....rest--same old thing over and over.....BH--nothing that is marketed today will kill one iota more dead than heads that have been around for years, even decades....camo clothing--still wearing ASAT knit, Day One fleece and Cabela's Outfitter fleece/Wooltimate. Those who have to have the latest and greatest seem to find the money for their unbridled passion. I buy used or outdated new bows and don't fund depreciation. The manufacturers and retailers can charge what they want.....I don't have to buy it. If you do.....then don't complain.


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## Gixxer1237 (Dec 9, 2018)

Used value is driven by the number of people who sell used. The more people by new and sell used quickly the lower the value of the used item unless the demand outweighs the supply. So new boss losing value is just because people flip yearly or more often. 
The 2 year flagship model has been around as long as I can remember. It's just replacement now instead of refinement. 
My first new bow was a mid level bow in 1997 for $359. That equals about $570 in today's money. So a better Lowend to middle now. Prices have risen slightly. The market takes it. Only the carbon bows seem unusually high. Most aluminum manufactures have tried and failed to mark how up to the same level.


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## n8saki (Aug 31, 2018)

Economic perspective AT fam. What is your expensive is someone else’s cheap. That’s why there’s various models to choose from in a line. Your budget doesn’t dictate what the market is, although many people feel priced out of the market you can a) switch hobbies b) keep what you have c) make more money. 

There’s a market for the high end stuff and some don’t mind paying it. Ever bought good glass for a rifle? That should put things into perspective quickly.


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## Ajax2744 (Feb 8, 2018)

COArrow said:


> Gregbell232 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember when I bought my first "pro line" bow. I walked into the shop and spent almost every dime of my $2,000 bonus. I bought a Z7 + sight + stab + arrows + release + case.
> ...


Yup. A few years ago my buddy dropped over 10k on a custom carbon mountain bike frame then add all the other parts and his bike cost more than a lot og people's cars. So I won't complain about a $1000 flagship bow haha


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Whenever I'm buying, the market [both new and used] is horribly over priced... When I'm selling the market is ridiculously low... In a fair and just [as in just for me] world that would be reversed!


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## mrjohnsmitt (Nov 19, 2018)

eskimoohunt said:


> Well
> I don’t mind the prices except on the carbon bows
> 
> The biggest problem is how much new stuff decreases in value the second you buy it
> ...


On the other side it make someone very happy


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

I know this. I use to buy a LOT more bows when they were less expensive...….now I'm a lot more selective and patient because they make so many new models and many come out half baked and have issues. Then you go to get parts 2 years later and they don't even make that model anymore.

IMHO people are expecting WAY too much from bow companies so many of the changes are just smoke & mirrors designed to sell bows rather than true upgrades. 


But hey you can't blame them...…….it's going both ways.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Wenty said:


> Everyone and their brother is driving around in fuel hog 1 ton diesels!!


My 1 ton diesel gets better mileage than my smaller lighter gassers. So, which are the fuel hogs?


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

COArrow said:


> If the economy is as good as I hear, why would prices go down?


Prices are more product dependent than economy dependent. It doesn't matter what the economy is doing, I have my limits on what I'll pay for items. I could be a billionaire and those limits are still there. More a principle thing than a wealth or economy thing. If people don't buy, the prices have to come down......or the company will go under. And at some point, if they can't make a profit they'll go under. Just like the healthcare insurance business.......the government mandates specific requirements, but those companies still need to be profitable to remain in existence. So their actuaries calculate what everyone's premiums need to be in order to do that. That's why Obamacare is such a train wreck. It forces EVERYONE to pay more, and at the same time it forced everyone to have insurance......period. Can you imagine if Congress mandated that everyone had to have archery gear, yet also mandated that millions get their gear for free? Costs would skyrocket.


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## Kyarcher95 (Jul 6, 2016)

I don't have to have the latest and greatest in archery gear, still drive an almost 13 year old truck that still gets me from point A to point B, and not worried about trying to keep up with the Jones's.


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## Wenty (Jan 6, 2012)

5MilesBack said:


> My 1 ton diesel gets better mileage than my smaller lighter gassers. So, which are the fuel hogs?


Yeah...mine too...by a small bit. Was really my point though. They are both fuel/gas hogs the way people are using them as daily drivers. These are work and tow rigs.
Economy is cranking! Its been a great run so far....thanks Obama! Different topic, but relevant. 

For the complainers.

Of all the hobbies I've had in my 42yrs. I'd say archery is by far one of the cheapest. So what are people talking about...the high cost?? 

There are jobs and money to be made across this country. Companies haven't been able to hire fast enough. Cant find good workers?? We are at 4%ue....well...bump that a bit the last few weeks. Sad. 

How is there a single, ABLE BODIED American archer complaining about the cost of archery gear? You can get into this sport with a BichN year old bow, decked out for 6 bills! Itll serve you well for 10 years. Cheap! Even if you buy new, 2k. Over ten years its 55 cents a damn day! *** are people complaining about!! Really? If you are able bodied and complaining right now...over that little cost!

Talk about a American Cliche. 

Initial question.
Archery industry prices too high? No. For all the reasons so many have pointed out. I'll happily take it over the alternative!!!
If folks dont understand that...no helping them.


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## Gixxer1237 (Dec 9, 2018)

I dont think most are trying to keep up with the Jones. I think a lot but new and sell after 1 season to try to minimize the lost. A buddy of mine buys new before season and sells after season for a $200-300 lose. He says he's renting his bow. His target rig is several seasons old tho. Because he hasn't shot anything better. I plan to start getting a new bow every 5 years weather I need it or not. Might be 1 season old but still current model. Minimize cost for maximum product. Not because i think the development warrants it but because i dont trust the reliability of bows after so many arrows. 
I drive a 29 year old truck. No ac, stick shift manual everything. My last bow was 10 years old and cost me $900. So a new bow now at $1100 isn't unreasonable. But I'll stick to used from the bow renters. Now if more of you would order 29" 80# bows that would be great. In black please...


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Year 2000. The Hoyt UltraTec was a top end bow. I bought one new, ordered it. Told there was a waiting period - like Selling Like Hotcakes. At the time I was told $605.61 plus tax. So ole Patient me waited and waited and waited. Dealer told me it was ridiculous, the waiting period and quoted me $599.00. And I waited and waited. Bow finally came in and dealer felt bad and knocked the price down to $569.00 and tax. And what's Hoyt's top end bow today, $2000 plus? Abby Archery - 6 showing $2045.41 (base price showing - $2,249.95. Bunch of $$$$$$$$..... 3 1/2 times or 3.9 times (take your pick) what I paid in 2000.


Do you know Abbey Archery is a Australia shop & the prices are in Australian dollars


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

COArrow said:


> Yes, that is why I feel archery is cheap. The rims on my mountain bike alone cost more than carbon flagship bows.


Same here. Haha
People that complain about archery equipment should not get addicted to mountain biking


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

More libs on here than I thought....


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

redruff said:


> Don't buy.
> 
> 
> I laugh all the way to the bank when I put on my $30 6 arrow kwikee quiver and then read how people are spending over $150 for two carbon rods and a two pieces of rubber.


Ya,but it's a Tight Spot.....brah

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## bowtecher82nd (Feb 19, 2008)

Alot of over priced products out there not just Archery but if we keep buying they will keep going up!


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

rmscustom said:


> Same here. Haha
> People that complain about archery equipment should not get addicted to mountain biking


Three of us. Just put Line Pro 40's, Pike and Eagle on my Stache.

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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

Thundersnow said:


> More libs on here than I thought....


Lol

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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

Thundersnow said:


> More libs on here than I thought....


What’s a lib?


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

rmscustom said:


> Thundersnow said:
> 
> 
> > More libs on here than I thought....
> ...


A liberal.... the downfall of our country and its economy if allowed to poison enough minds with their propaganda.


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

rmscustom said:


> What’s a lib?


Those of us who work hard and are successful enough to afford archery equipment.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

COArrow said:


> rmscustom said:
> 
> 
> > What’s a lib?
> ...


Until the libs in our government start going after archery equipment like they are our guns.

Maybe your confused, if liberals can't afford something they think the government or the rich should give it to them. Unjustified entitlement...


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

Thundersnow said:


> Until the libs in our government start going after archery equipment like they are our guns.
> 
> Maybe your confused, if liberals can't afford something they think the government or the rich should give it to them. Unjustified entitlement...


The Libs are the rich.


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

Thundersnow said:


> Until the libs in our government start going after archery equipment like they are our guns.
> 
> Maybe your confused, if liberals can't afford something they think the government or the rich should give it to them. Unjustified entitlement...


Amen

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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

The bottom line is we votE with our money... 

These are all very simple free principles. If you don't like the cost, don't pay it. If you do pay it, don't complain about it. No one forced you to spend.
If there is enough demand the prices will continue to creep up... 
Supply and demand


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## Matlax (Feb 14, 2015)

Xpedition Xcentric Pro 6. 2016 flagship riser with 2018 flagship limbs and cams. Genius. Picked one up two weeks ago for $549 and shoots as well as the Xcursion 6. I wish more companies would do stuff like that. But, hey, capitalism has made us the BA nation we are. Releases? Now they’re crazy!


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## Smid (Feb 3, 2013)

deadturkey said:


> Three of us. Just put Line Pro 40's, Pike and Eagle on my Stache.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


4 of us. But I complain about that prices of both lol


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

COArrow said:


> Thundersnow said:
> 
> 
> > Until the libs in our government start going after archery equipment like they are our guns.
> ...


Statistically, no they are not, and the gap will continue to grow as long as they are rewarded without effort. The reward for effort always outweighs a handout, monetary or otherwise...

Enough politic'n... free market always wins!


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## Gixxer1237 (Dec 9, 2018)

5? I just trail ride a stump jumper... Not the league of you guys.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Always going to be whiners. If you can't afford a flagship bow- which makes up about 5% of all archery bows sold each year- then don't buy one. The $500 mid priced bows today are better than the flagship bows of say- 5 years ago. And most of the guys complaining can't shoot well enough to even know the difference. 

The average price of a new bow in America is just over $400 today. Don't believe me- then go do the research. If you haven't listened to the podcast in its entirety, then you are missing good, eye opening information. 

Guys *****ing here are probably driving $60k trucks with 5K worth of lift kit crap on them. If you don't like the sport's direction and don't want to be a positive force growing it (by maybe taking kids out hunting or shooting or helping clubs and leagues) then take up jogging or go out and play in the woods with a stick and jar lid.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

eskimoohunt said:


> Well
> I don’t mind the prices except on the carbon bows
> 
> *The biggest problem is how much new stuff decreases in value the second you buy it*
> ...


I agree... This is why I tend to keep bows for a few years before moving on...So I feel like I "got my $$$ worth out of them". Though I suspect my H6 will be my hunting bow for a long time.



wildernessninja said:


> Was how i was able to upgrade this year. Got a deal on a left over 2017/18 bow.


Until I bought my Halon 3 years ago, I always bought "left over" bows. I did the same thing with Golf equipment and and trucks too. (I saved $13k when I bought my Silverado as a leftover)


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## D J A X (Sep 10, 2017)

While I do agree that some of the prices are ridiculous, I don't purchase those items. In reality , archery can be as expensive or inexpensive as you make it. Examples...you can preorder the newest bow and spend the asking price or wait till after the season and buy a left over bow for considerably cheaper or a used bow. 

You don't need a carbon bow, sitka, a $900 lone wolf, $400 bow sight, $100 broadheads , $250 stabilizer setup, $300 arrows, $150 quiver to kill animals. You can get a setup that will kill efficiently for significantly less. There is many options and at the end of the day...the setup is only as good as the operator. 

There is going to be many people who buy the absolute best in their mind and will pay top dollar for it all, kudos to them. I personally spend money on gear that I believe will make be better as a hunter , I don't believe in all the hype.

-Dan


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## Rob5589 (Apr 28, 2013)

rmscustom said:


> Same here. Haha
> People that complain about archery equipment should not get addicted to mountain biking


Or golf. Or 4 wheelin. Sometimes my wife ain't real pleased with my hobbies


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## CHAMPION2 (May 6, 2004)

Its every industry. Automotive, cell phones, cable tv, food, etc.. The cost of living far exceeds wage increases!


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## BowhunterLFD (Mar 8, 2017)

I think the market is flooded with bows, everyone is trying to get top dollar. With bow companies also assisting with this by marketing to those who need the next best thing


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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

CHAMPION2 said:


> Its every industry. Automotive, cell phones, cable tv, food, etc.. The cost of living far exceeds wage increases!


Depends on where you live and what you do.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

COArrow said:


> Depends on where you live and what you do.


I disagree - really only depends on what we continue to be willing to pay. 

Me personally, I think the prices are absurd for what we’re getting in comparison to the bows and prices we were getting them for a few years ago. For instance, I shot an E35 for 4 years - longest I’ve ever held on to one bow. Purchased for $799. Going to buy Ritual 35 - same tech, same specs, except I can’t get camo limbs now. Asking @ $1k.

What makes it a real killer is the abject diminishment in value after year 1...or even the first shot. 

But - I’m part of the problem- I keep buying the bows.

I do think some of the manufacturers exceeded the optimization point on Hunting offerings and have backed down a bit.



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## COArrow (Nov 24, 2013)

stillern said:


> I disagree - really only depends on what we continue to be willing to pay.
> 
> Me personally, I think the prices are absurd for what we’re getting in comparison to the bows and prices we were getting them for a few years ago. For instance, I shot an E35 for 4 years - longest I’ve ever held on to one bow. Purchased for $799. Going to buy Ritual 35 - same tech, same specs, except I can’t get camo limbs now. Asking @ $1k.
> 
> ...


I was saying that wages can and do exceed cost of living and lifestyle
Increases in many areas and professions.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

CHAMPION2 said:


> Its every industry. Automotive, cell phones, cable tv, food, etc.. *The cost of living far exceeds wage increases!*


There's "cost of living" and then there's "cost of having stuff". This so-called government shutdown is a great example of how most people spend every dime they get. They have no savings at all, or very little to fall back on when rough times appear. There are very few Americans that can't afford to save money from every paycheck. Yet one estimate I saw says that 76% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. But I guarantee you that they have a smartphone, an HDTV, some form of cable/satellite/internet/etc, probably a newer vehicle, some toys, maybe even drink alcohol and/or sodas, perhaps do coffee at Starbucks or other local coffee houses routinely (someone is.......there's ALWAYS a line), etc, etc.......and the list goes on. Those aren't costs of living, those are costs of having stuff.

There's no excuse at all for not having savings. I started saving and investing when I was 12. I always paid myself first.......right after I gave God His 10%. It's all His anyway, so getting to keep 90% is quite the deal.


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## banzaiengr (Mar 13, 2013)

With bows the sad part is what you get after you've had the bow for one year. I have nothing against paying for what should be a fine product, but bows are like vehicles. You walk out of the store and now it's only worth about 2/3 what you payed for it. Seems to make little financial sense to buy new.

Then there is the argument that you have the warranty. Go through this forum and find all of the folks complaining about warranty issues. If it's a good product then who needs to worry about the warranty? How many of us have actually used the warranty on a new bow? I never have.


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

Bows are the worst. But we keep buying them..LOL well some of us. You pay 1,000 for a new bow and walk out the door. 90% of dealers don't take trades. keep it a week and take it back to same dealer and they will not even buy it. Its worth nothing to them..


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## woodski989 (Feb 10, 2009)

I wish people would stay in their lane and not whine so damn much about everything! Are we men? What happened to people? Has whining and complaining every gotten you anywhere? The new fad of getting a new bow isn't new at all, people have been doing it for a long time. Its out of hand because literally everyone thinks they need a new bow every season. The prices are fair on ALL bows, if you cant afford it then move on. Every company makes great bows at affordable prices, the higher end bows wouldn't have the flagship name attached to it if it wasn't the most expensive bow they produce. Hobbies aren't needs, they are wants. If you Want the new bow and cant afford work at being able to afford it. I don't think the people who are actually able to afford these bows are complaining, its the majority of the people who can't afford them that are complaining.


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## mbourbeau12 (Oct 27, 2015)

Wait till the Feds pass the $15.00 minimum wage, prices will go up even more. If you can't afford the bow you want this year wait till next year and get it for half price. I have a archery account that I save few bucks in and when I save enough money then I purchase what I want. What worked 10 years ago still works today. I have some Easton xx75 2314 from my father in-law that are about 25 years old that are just as good today as they were yesterday. So stop the impluse buying and master what you have.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Prices are what prices are. If people keep paying the prices, then prices will stay the same, or increase. But really, if you think about it, and do it cleverly, archery doesn't need to be super expensive. I am sure the industry leaders will hate me for this, but here goes. 

"Archery on a Budget"

Bows: Buy used. The number of used bows on the market for half than or less than half of their original MSRP is staggering. While you may not get this season's newest bling, a two or three season old bow will still shoot every bit as well as this season's offerings, at a considerable savings.

Stabilizers: Buy used. Again, same as bows. What do stabs do in 2019 that they didn't do in 2010? Move your stabs from bow to bow, instead of buying a new setup for every bow.

Sights: Same as bows and stabilizers. Buy used, and swap from bow to bow. 

Arrow rest: Buy used. Keep it simple. If you are hunting, nothing wrong with a Whisker Biscuit. If you are a dedicated target shooter, find the simplest blade rest you can find. It might be more cumbersome to tune, but once you get it dialed in, you are done. Remember, this is archery on a budget. What you are saving in money, you may need to put in as a bit more time.

Release: Buy used.

Arrows: So you've saved a bunch of money on all of the stuff you need to get shooting. You could explore some new arrows. I have found that for the average archer (remember, this is archery on a budget. If you are on a budget, you are not a pro shooter) the .008" straightness arrows shoot as well as the .001" straightness arrows, and they cost about 25% less than the "Pro" arrows. If you want them to be straighter, cut them from both ends to length, instead of only one.

I have no doubt that someone looking to get into archery and setup a bow for either Target or Hunting could do so, ready to shoot for $500, if they were patient and savvy on the classifieds, and shopped retail for good details.

The best part about archery, is that once you have everything, you have it. It doesn't eat anything. That is rare among hobbies. Firearms eat ammo, golf eats balls, shoes, gloves, tees, etc, boats eat gasoline, fishing eats bait/lures/line etc. But archery, once you have your setup, you have it. You might need a new set of strings/cables every so often, but they aren't that expensive. Put $10 a month into an envelop for a string fund. After 2 years when you might need some new threads, you've got $240 to put towards them. You'll need under $100 or so. And you may want some new arrows, if you break or lose a few. Use the remaining $140 from your string fund.

So can you shoot archery on the cheap? Absolutely. Will you be the guy or gal with every flagship bow from the past 10 years, fully setup, hanging on your bow rack? No. But you also don't need to be. 

My indoor target bow is 2002 (ish) PSE Silhouette that I scored scratch and dent in 2006. I loaded it up with a cheap, out of date Easton stabilizer, a very difficult to adjust Toxonics 1500 sight, and a basic old TM hunter rest, scavenged from the bow I shot when I was 12. I did splurge on some X7 2713's, and a new hinge release. Was it the latest and greatest? Heck no. Did it put an arrow where I wanted it to? Heck yes. I shot a whole bunch of 300 45+ X's on the NFAA 5 spot face with that rig. Now, that is not good enough to win the indoor nationals, but I didn't expect to either. Also, not sure how much of those 15 missed X's were me, and how many were my bow. I suspect most were me.

So if you are thinking stuff is too expensive, consider the used market. Truth be told, archery tech hasn't really changed much in 10 years (or more) and you will do just as well with a bow a few seasons old as you would with something brand spanking new. 

Live within your means and have fun. You can do it with a bit of patience and preparation.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

COArrow said:


> I was saying that wages can and do exceed cost of living and lifestyle
> Increases in many areas and professions.


Agree - however I think this goes beyond any income/cost permutations. There is a psychological optimization point - I think this is the primary factor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trellaf (Dec 6, 2018)

I bought a Model 70 featherweight in 1957 , paid $139.00 for it. It's now worth in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars. The bow you pay a thousand dollars for today will be worth what in sixty years?


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> There's "cost of living" and then there's "cost of having stuff". This so-called government shutdown is a great example of how most people spend every dime they get. They have no savings at all, or very little to fall back on when rough times appear. There are very few Americans that can't afford to save money from every paycheck. Yet one estimate I saw says that 76% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. But I guarantee you that they have a smartphone, an HDTV, some form of cable/satellite/internet/etc, probably a newer vehicle, some toys, maybe even drink alcohol and/or sodas, perhaps do coffee at Starbucks or other local coffee houses routinely (someone is.......there's ALWAYS a line), etc, etc.......and the list goes on. Those aren't costs of living, those are costs of having stuff.
> 
> There's no excuse at all for not having savings. I started saving and investing when I was 12. I always paid myself first.......right after I gave God His 10%. It's all His anyway, so getting to keep 90% is quite the deal.


I applaud that post.


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## Mattn35 (Mar 1, 2018)

Would have to definately agree, think prices are rediculous. In all the tests I have seen, the Chinese broadheads are just slightly behind American broadheads in quality but can be bought for 75% less. My bow sells for about $800 at the pro shop, bought it on Ebay as a floor model for $525 ! Something is really wrong. As long as people are willing to pay $15 for 1(ONE) broad head, nothing is going to change. 
It is absolutely rediculous.


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## Wenty (Jan 6, 2012)

5MilesBack said:


> There's "cost of living" and then there's "cost of having stuff". This so-called government shutdown is a great example of how most people spend every dime they get. They have no savings at all, or very little to fall back on when rough times appear. There are very few Americans that can't afford to save money from every paycheck. Yet one estimate I saw says that 76% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. But I guarantee you that they have a smartphone, an HDTV, some form of cable/satellite/internet/etc, probably a newer vehicle, some toys, maybe even drink alcohol and/or sodas, perhaps do coffee at Starbucks or other local coffee houses routinely (someone is.......there's ALWAYS a line), etc, etc.......and the list goes on. Those aren't costs of living, those are costs of having stuff.
> 
> There's no excuse at all for not having savings. I started saving and investing when I was 12. I always paid myself first.......right after I gave God His 10%. It's all His anyway, so getting to keep 90% is quite the deal.


No doubt!! I knew there was a reason I liked you...seems pretty straight forward, a easy formula to follow. Save and dont live beyond your means. See...some of these fools dont get that last part!! How does it go...a fool and his money. Then they complain how expensive it is to buy a new bow every year. No pot to piss in. But they got that new bow. "Gosh, they are so expensive"

Just like my last comment, I don't want to hear a single, able bodied American complain about 
"Cost of living"!!! Do work! Lots of it out there. 

Cry because they can't afford to cloth, feed and provide iPads and iPhones for 4 kids. Insurance... So expensive. And on top of that complain about the cost of archery equipment...um...YOU and YOUR individual choices put you there! 

So sickening!


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Mattn35 said:


> Would have to definately agree, think prices are rediculous. In all the tests I have seen, the Chinese broadheads are just slightly behind American broadheads in quality but can be bought for 75% less. My bow sells for about $800 at the pro shop, bought it on Ebay as a floor model for $525 ! Something is really wrong. As long as people are willing to pay $15 for 1(ONE) broad head, nothing is going to change.
> It is absolutely rediculous.


True. I am all about getting a good deal, but you also have to consider R&D. In many cases, especially with hunting gear/accessories, the American companies are the ones spending the time and money to drive product development and innovate, where as the Chinese companies are just copying what works, producing it, and selling it for cheap because they don't have to pay engineers, those who evaluate their products, etc. There is no free lunch. Also, when you actually look at and understand the forces a modern compound bow deals with, you should be happy to pay for that R&D and engineering. If anything were to fail at full draw, you'd end up with a pop knot that could pull a bass boat, or worse.

Pro shops have overhead in addition to employee salaries. The have to charge to keep the lights on. There is no easy solution. Stuff costs what it costs. 

I know $15 for a broad head sounds excessive, but how many times can you use it? If you can kill 3 deer (or whatever) with it, it costs you $5 an animal. Given the amount of time and money you spent to kill that animal, what is another $5, or another $15 for that matter? Also, what does that $15 a pop BH do that an old school NAP Thunderhead @ $8 a pop does not do? If the difference between a mechanical head and fixed head, take the time to tune your bow to the fixed head. A lot of these so called "innovations" are really just crutches for lazy archers.

Can't afford a range finding bow sight? Don't want to buy a range finder? Do what was done before these things existed. Put in the time to mark your shooting lanes. Can't afford or don't want to buy this years latest and greatest hunting bow that has the same specs as the one from 7 years ago? Use the one from 7 years ago. I've got a friend who gets his deer every year with his LX. He doesn't even care about whats out on the market today. His LX is all he needs. 

I guess what it boils down to is priorities. Yes, archery gear is pricey. If its your only hobby though, or only main hobby, compared to other hobbies, it isn't terribly expensive, beyond an initial investment. If you are like me, and have lots of hobbies, you have to prioritize those of most importance, and spend accordingly. I am into competitive sailing (33 footer on lake erie), archery, model aircraft, fishing, occasionally golf, boat building, and playing guitar. I have to prioritize my purchases so that I can enjoy all of my hobbies. Some years I let some go a bit by the wayside. Like last year, I didn't play as much golf. The saved greens fees paid for boat parts. This year, I don't have as many boat related expenses, and sold some old paintball gear I wasn't using, so I was able to treat myself to a new (to me...I always buy used) target bow. 

Being a responsible adult sometimes sucks, but its just the reality we live in.

That, or the archery community as a whole can get together and agree not to purchase new bows, sights, etc until prices go down. We do have the power to influence industry with our wallets.


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## gdubbmx (Dec 28, 2018)

The way I see it as long as your equipment will produce the results you're looking for it doesn't matter whether it's a year old or 10 years old. For me the only thing I'm concerned with is hitting my Target and making clean ethical kills on the game I hunt.

I usually look for bows 1 to3 years old. Most of my other equipment is stuff I find on sale from a year before. I make a lot of my own Jigs and what not because frankly I don't see the point in spending a huge amount of money when I can build it myself and put that money towards something else like retirement LOL. That's just my two cents on this.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

IBOHunt3D said:


> True. I am all about getting a good deal, but you also have to consider R&D. In many cases, especially with hunting gear/accessories, the American companies are the ones spending the time and money to drive product development and innovate, where as the Chinese companies are just copying what works, producing it, and selling it for cheap because they don't have to pay engineers, those who evaluate their products, etc. There is no free lunch. Also, when you actually look at and understand the forces a modern compound bow deals with, you should be happy to pay for that R&D and engineering. If anything were to fail at full draw, you'd end up with a pop knot that could pull a bass boat, or worse.
> 
> Pro shops have overhead in addition to employee salaries. The have to charge to keep the lights on. There is no easy solution. Stuff costs what it costs.
> 
> ...


You forgot the taxes american companies have to pay, the events that american companies put 100's of $1,000's towards, the higher wages, the health insurance costs, the taxes, and everything else american companies have to pay. The way I look at it, anyone who buys the chinese knock off products are literally saying they don't care if they loose their job to some sweat shop over seas. Makes no difference. They also don't care that those tax dollars are not getting paid so they don't care if they have any unemployment or welfare benefits that those chinese companies don't pay for. Hey I am all for a global economy, just not one that knocks off products from another company and sells it at prices american companies can't even make the product for....


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

sneak1413 said:


> You forgot the taxes american companies have to pay, the events that american companies put 100's of $1,000's towards, the higher wages, the health insurance costs, the taxes, and everything else american companies have to pay. The way I look at it, anyone who buys the chinese knock off products are literally saying they don't care if they loose their job to some sweat shop over seas. Makes no difference. They also don't care that those tax dollars are not getting paid so they don't care if they have any unemployment or welfare benefits that those chinese companies don't pay for. Hey I am all for a global economy, just not one that knocks off products from another company and sells it at prices american companies can't even make the product for....


Exactly. 

Also, from the archery side of things, at least in the world of compound, if you look at what all the top archers are shooting, its the result of those American companies and their R&D. My guess is that while the Chinese knock off companies can rip off broadheads, and other accessories, and even lower end bows, when it comes to making a piece of strong, durable, precision archery equipment is relied on to make a living (in the case of the pro shooter) they can't do it for any less than is done over here, so they don't bother.


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## bszczerbiak (Apr 2, 2012)

I'll agree that new prices of many discretionary goods are staggering. Bows. Trucks. ATVs. Furniture....you name it. But as others have mentioned, why pay new prices? I get the fact that some people want to be the first on the block to own XYZ shining new thing. But the used market is massive, and w/ technology, it's almost impossible to not find what want at massively reduced prices. The only trade-off: time. 

Me...I love high quality stuff. But I refuse to pay high prices. So I wait. And look. I'm in the process of furnishing a new house. In the last week alone, I've probably saved $15K on furnishings using a combination of Craigslist and Outlet stores. New high-end mattress at retail: $6000. new-in-box on Craigslist: $1500. New high-end couch/chairs at retail: $5500. Same set from wealthy household that decided it wasn't their thing after 1 year on Craigslist: $750. And on and on. It's no different for sporting goods. For every person that has to have the greatest new thing at retail, there's going to be an opportunity to buy that great new thing shortly after for pennies on the dollar.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

sneak1413 said:


> You forgot the taxes american companies have to pay, the events that american companies put 100's of $1,000's towards, the higher wages, the health insurance costs, the taxes, and everything else american companies have to pay. The way I look at it, anyone who buys the chinese knock off products are literally saying they don't care if they loose their job to some sweat shop over seas. Makes no difference. They also don't care that those tax dollars are not getting paid so they don't care if they have any unemployment or welfare benefits that those chinese companies don't pay for. Hey I am all for a global economy, just not one that knocks off products from another company and sells it at prices american companies can't even make the product for....


Maybe had those American companies not chosen China to make parts for their product, China wouldn't have made the knock offs. :set1_thinking:


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## cschwanz (Sep 10, 2012)

As long as people pay it, they will charge what they can. Simple economics. Don't like the price, don't buy it. If companies can't sell their stuff, they'll lower their price or go out of business. 

I absolutely love everything about the new LWCG stand and stick setup but I can't justify that cost for the type of hunting I do and how often a mobile setup will be used. Instead I'm looking at something more affordable like the XOP Vanish. Same with arrows. The T64s are cool and all, but my GT arrows have been fine and I did pick up some standard FMJ for a reasonable price that I think will work just fine too. 

Archery is no different than any other industry. Ferrari and Lamborghini aren't ruining the Auto industry, there are plenty of affordable cars for people. Kreighoff isn't ruining the firearms industry, plenty of cheap guns for people to buy.


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## MOfurMOfeather (Jul 13, 2018)

I couldn't agree more with most of you, as I scroll through the comments. The price for items has gone up, and I really first started to realize it when YETI became big, and found out they could charge +$299 for a cooler, when Igloo had one for $59. How many of those here own a YETI cooler? How many who own the cooler, actually need to keep ice for 5 days vs think it's cool to own a YETI and slap the sticker in the back window of their 3/4 ton diesel? 

When YETI (and everyone else in the sporting goods industry) found out a bunch of idiots would spend that on a cooler, a lot of other prices started going up quickly. Now we have $850 tree stands, $50 arrows, $350 jackets, and $1600 bows. People buy them, so they keep offering new products at increasing high prices. Eventually someone will hit the ceiling and we will know where that line is, but Ferrari and Bentley are still in business so the limit is whatever someone is willing to pay for... 

I am not telling anyone how to spend their money, and if you want a new LWCG tree stand or YETI 210, have the money, and it doesn't hurt your family to spend it, then power to you. Personally, though that is outrageous to me, and I love cool new gear (own some) and dig the new stand a lot. However, if my wife asked how much it was when I brought that stand home (and I have a good job and could afford it) I do not know how I could justify that price to her. Especially, when that much money could go towards an awesome weekend away from home with the wife, good meals, and some fun at the casino. 

Besides, if I wanted to shave a few pounds on my setup, I would personally get more by losing 5-10lbs off the gut by hiking hills, become stronger physically and mentally by doing so, and enjoy my time hiking into public more because of it. 

Spend your money on experiences, not gear. Buy tags and gas to hunt out west, take your family on a weekend vacation, get out of debt so you can live your life freely. All these new cool gear are items that help you in very small increments. Like most of you have said, use what you got and hunt more with your money vs less by buying top of the line stuff in every category. 

I will step down from my soap box...


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## stantonl33 (Jan 29, 2014)

frog gigger said:


> Maybe had those American companies not chosen China to make parts for their product, China wouldn't have made the knock offs. :set1_thinking:


Copyright/patent law doesn't apply in China. There are many factors going into that issue.


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## 457121 (Oct 27, 2017)

bszczerbiak said:


> I'll agree that new prices of many discretionary goods are staggering. Bows. Trucks. ATVs. Furniture....you name it. But as others have mentioned, why pay new prices? I get the fact that some people want to be the first on the block to own XYZ shining new thing. But the used market is massive, and w/ technology, it's almost impossible to not find what want at massively reduced prices. The only trade-off: time.
> 
> Me...I love high quality stuff. But I refuse to pay high prices. So I wait. And look. I'm in the process of furnishing a new house. In the last week alone, I've probably saved $15K on furnishings using a combination of Craigslist and Outlet stores. New high-end mattress at retail: $6000. new-in-box on Craigslist: $1500. New high-end couch/chairs at retail: $5500. Same set from wealthy household that decided it wasn't their thing after 1 year on Craigslist: $750. And on and on. It's no different for sporting goods. For every person that has to have the greatest new thing at retail, there's going to be an opportunity to buy that great new thing shortly after for pennies on the dollar.


I hear you but no way in heck am I buying a used mattress. Yuck


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## Rob5589 (Apr 28, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> There's "cost of living" and then there's "cost of having stuff". This so-called government shutdown is a great example of how most people spend every dime they get. They have no savings at all, or very little to fall back on when rough times appear. There are very few Americans that can't afford to save money from every paycheck. Yet one estimate I saw says that 76% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. But I guarantee you that they have a smartphone, an HDTV, some form of cable/satellite/internet/etc, probably a newer vehicle, some toys, maybe even drink alcohol and/or sodas, perhaps do coffee at Starbucks or other local coffee houses routinely (someone is.......there's ALWAYS a line), etc, etc.......and the list goes on. *Those aren't costs of living, those are costs of having stuff*.
> 
> There's no excuse at all for not having savings. I started saving and investing when I was 12. I always paid myself first.......right after I gave God His 10%. It's all His anyway, so getting to keep 90% is quite the deal.


Well said



trellaf said:


> I bought a Model 70 featherweight in 1957 , paid $139.00 for it. It's now worth in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars. The bow you pay a thousand dollars for today will be worth what in sixty years?


Nothing. As long as bow companies come out with "the best ever" every single year, bows will never appreciate in value like a Win M70. Those old model 70's are some real beauties. Caliber?


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

frog gigger said:


> Maybe had those American companies not chosen China to make parts for their product, China wouldn't have made the knock offs. :set1_thinking:


I know for a FACT that some of those knock off products have never ever been outsourced anywhere, including China...I know for a fact one of the products I make has been knocked off and none of that product has ever been shipped overseas except to dealers.....


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## rjack (Jan 14, 2007)

I’ve said it over and over...Archery is expensive but it has always been for the past decade+. The first flagship bow I bought was in ‘06. I paid $750 for a new SB. That is equal to $986 today with standard inflation. I can buy a new Triax today for $899. So in 13 years the cost of flagship bows has been pretty flat. 

Now it’s about decisions. A consumer can decide to buy a new $1.6K Hoyt carbon or they can buy a $600 Diamond Deploy carbon bow. The market provides us options that will all kill animals or punch an X. I can afford a new flagship bow every year. This year I decided to buy a new left over Z3 for $565. I found them for less but I’m a lefty so I get to pay more sometimes. The Z3 is a better bow than my ‘06 SB was and cost me $165 less 13 years later. The consumer gets to vote with their wallet. 

The argument of guns lasting for decades is pointless. Bows are made from materials with a short shelf life. I’d love to have strings or limbs last 10 years. Reality proves otherwise. Try to find a classic recurve from the 50’s or 60’s with straight limbs. They exist but are very rare. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JPiniewski (Dec 7, 2002)

If you are able to get a kid hooked on archery you will never have to worry about him getting hooked on drugs. They will not be able to afford them !!


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## deadturkey (Mar 19, 2016)

Price factors include....attorney fees,warranty costs and patents. People will file suits to get "rich".

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

sneak1413 said:


> I know for a FACT that some of those knock off products have never ever been outsourced anywhere, including China...I know for a fact one of the products I make has been knocked off and none of that product has ever been shipped overseas except to dealers.....


I have heard that the Chinese just need 7 days from getting their hands on a product to having it in full production. That's why this is one of the major bullet points of Trump's tariff negotiations.......intellectual property.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> I have heard that the Chinese just need 7 days from getting their hands on a product to having it in full production. That's why this is one of the major bullet points of Trump's tariff negotiations.......intellectual property.


youve said some interesting things, but this is uninformed.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> youve said some interesting things, but this is uninformed.


It all depends on the product. If you talk something like a broadhead. Yeah they could probably have it up and going in about a week. Something like a moveable sight or a bow... not so much.


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## wilsonjvl (Jan 19, 2009)

This is my take on things. Are prices high?, yes if you want the flagship version of everything, are they too high?, not if they are still selling. Archery is like everything else in the world, I would love to park a Ferrari in my garage, however my budget does not allow for that, why should archery equipment be any different. Not every bow case will be filled with a flagship bow. Now granted top end a bow and bow only can set you back two grand vs. the cost of a Ferrari and two grand is a lot more attainable than hundreds of thousands of dollars by more people, however it is still budget related. 
Do I have a flagship bow in my case? yes, Did I purchase it new? no. I let someone else with a bigger budget purchase it first and then bough at a steeply discounted price. If you have to have the latest and greatest you are going to pay, it is like this with everything and things will not be changing anytime soon. People need to remember that just because you have the latest and greatest you may not need the latest and greatest. Every year it's the same old song and dance. I plan to keep my bow for many years to come and it will not bother me that I am behind on models, this is actually the first time in a very long time that I have owned a bow that was still currently in production. 
The notion that you don't always need the most expensive really hit home when I went to buy a new lizard tongue rest a few years ago and the shop owner actually talked me out of buying the top tier rest I had gone in for and recommended one that was half the cost, sighting out that with the rest he recommended you set it and forget it with no micro adjust. His recommendation was biased off of the fact that the micro adjust will for the most part only be used for the initial setup and then not used again. It makes sense that sometimes you are paying for features that look really nice on paper but in the long run are for the most part very un-necessary.

just my 2 cents


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> youve said some interesting things, but this is uninformed.


Sorry.......is it closer to 10 days? Please inform us if you're better informed.

They were specifically talking about golf clubs in the article I was reading, but mentioned it as a broad statement as well for most any product. At the time it was Taylormade's top of the line driver. Taylormade couldn't even tell the difference until they cut it open. This was probably 10 years ago. I would figure they would have improved on that timeline over the last 10 years.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

....


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## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

5MilesBack said:


> There's "cost of living" and then there's "cost of having stuff". This so-called government shutdown is a great example of how most people spend every dime they get. They have no savings at all, or very little to fall back on when rough times appear. There are very few Americans that can't afford to save money from every paycheck. Yet one estimate I saw says that 76% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. But I guarantee you that they have a smartphone, an HDTV, some form of cable/satellite/internet/etc, probably a newer vehicle, some toys, maybe even drink alcohol and/or sodas, perhaps do coffee at Starbucks or other local coffee houses routinely (someone is.......there's ALWAYS a line), etc, etc.......and the list goes on. Those aren't costs of living, those are costs of having stuff.
> 
> There's no excuse at all for not having savings. I started saving and investing when I was 12. I always paid myself first.......right after I gave God His 10%. It's all His anyway, so getting to keep 90% is quite the deal.


Excellent post!! I pay the same 10% right off the top, retirement comes out, then bills get paid. If there is some left...great! If not, it's time to eat leftovers and keep last years bow...that was really four years old, but new to me. Since I have the knowledge and ability I will always buy used. Especially since I am equipping a family of four archers.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> Sorry.......is it closer to 10 days? Please inform us if you're better informed.
> 
> They were specifically talking about golf clubs in the article I was reading, but mentioned it as a broad statement as well for most any product. At the time it was Taylormade's top of the line driver. Taylormade couldn't even tell the difference until they cut it open. This was probably 10 years ago. I would figure they would have improved on that timeline over the last 10 years.


well i think the more telling issue i had was the matter of fact, clutching your pearls explanation. As in, did you know they can take anything and make a duplicate in just a week, and no one can tell the difference? It sounds very much along the lines of "I heard that Thompson boy is into Dungeons and Dragons, we shouldnt let Timmy go over there anymore or he'll start reading about the occult."

its fear mongering.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> well i think the more telling issue i had was the matter of fact, clutching your pearls explanation. As in, did you know they can take anything and make a duplicate in just a week, and no one can tell the difference? It sounds very much along the lines of "I heard that Thompson boy is into Dungeons and Dragons, we shouldnt let Timmy go over there anymore or he'll start reading about the occult."
> 
> its fear mongering.


So, do you have any input to the contrary? You said I was "uninformed"......so please inform us with the facts that you know about or have heard. It had nothing to do with fear-mongering, Dungeons and Dragons, or the occult........just a statement of their capabilities as stated in the article. It also stated that sometimes the Chinese versions are coming to the market before they've even released their own "NEW" product. I have no reason to doubt that information, nor any reason to fear it. If you don't have any definitive information that refutes what I posted, then you're no more informed on the subject than anyone else.


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