# Bareshaft Tuning results!!



## SARASR

Great post! By the time I type half that much I have timed out and off the site...lol Thanks for sharing
SUBSCRIBED!


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## westen

Good info, thanks.


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## IL 88

Great post... If I could only choose one tuning method, it would without a doubt be bare shaft tuning.


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## ontarget7

Wolbear.... Glad you got your Reezen dialed in :thumbs_up Alan is a world of great info for sure. 
Where did your centershot end up after bare shaft tuning ? 

Regarding bare shaft tuning I have stopped doing it all together as of late and have found no difference in my long range groups. I guess I have found a very good routine that is working well and never have an issue broadheads to field points.


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## nuts&bolts

wolbear:

You are very welcome.
That is EXCELLENT shooting.


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## buckhunter1

WoW what a post! Marked also. I have had so many guys tell me I was waisting my time with bare shaft tuning and it doesn't matter. I never got it right, because I was just moving my rest and knock. Well, now I know how, thanks!


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## wolbear

To answer your question ontarget my centershot ended up 21/32" a hair under the 11/16" that Mathews recommends for the Reezen. The Z7 ended up a hair inside of 13/16" (using a WB). Like I said before, I am truly no archery wonder, but get very anal (as Kim calls it) particular (as I call it) about my equipment. I am a firm believer in the theory that if the equipment is tuned to the best it can be, if I miss, there is no one to blame but me! I hope at least a few can use this method and become better archers with better accuracy.


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## buckhunter1

wolbear said:


> To answer your question ontarget my centershot ended up 21/32" a hair under the 11/16" that Mathews recommends for the Reezen. The Z7 ended up a hair inside of 13/16" (using a WB). Like I said before, I am truly no archery wonder, but get very anal (as Kim calls it) particular (as I call it) about my equipment.* I am a firm believer in the theory that if the equipment is tuned to the best it can be, if I miss, there is no one to blame but me!* I hope at least a few can use this method and become better archers with better accuracy.


 ME Too! I have took my bows to several archery shops to to shoot bare shaft and tune through paper. I tell them the archery techs, I want my equipment to be perfectly tuned, and I have a lot of money invested in this piece of equipment. I want to get the best out of it. They usually laugh and say that it is basically over kill and they don't recommend wasting the time. I say I spent $$$$ and If I miss a trophy buck, it will be all my fault, not this Pro Series Bow..


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## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> To answer your question ontarget my centershot ended up 21/32" a hair under the 11/16" that Mathews recommends for the Reezen. The Z7 ended up a hair inside of 13/16" (using a WB). Like I said before, I am truly no archery wonder, but get very anal (as Kim calls it) particular (as I call it) about my equipment. I am a firm believer in the theory that if the equipment is tuned to the best it can be, if I miss, there is no one to blame but me! I hope at least a few can use this method and become better archers with better accuracy.


Thanks for the response bro and it looks like the yoke tuning brought it back out a smidgen. Congrats on the shooting and great post :thumbs_up. Alan is outstanding and communicating the fine things about this sport that you normally don't see everyday on here.


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## Skeeter 58

Very good! Alan knows his stuff. 

I have been into bare shaft tuning for about 4-5 years now. I have learned a lot for sure. There are so many little things that can make all the difference either way. 

Besides proper arrow spine, bow tune and rest tune, I have found that the shooter can and does make all the difference. 

I learned to never adjust anything until I shoot at least 2-3 times. Its just too easy to make a mistake in form. 

The most rewarding experience I have every had in terms of bow tuning was when I shot bare shafts from 40 yards and they hit right in the middle of fletched arrows. 

Thats when you know you got er tuned right and you are shooting right.

Skeet.


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## jb-hunter

OK.. I am lost here. Yesterday I had a hard right tear (bare shaft) amd I couldn't lose it unless going way out of centershot so I went to the forum for yoke tuning lessons. After reeading, I put one full turn on each right yoke, set my arrow at 7/8 and returned to paper. Perfect hole at 9'. Stepped out for a walkback tune, wind was blowing but 10, 20 and 30 was pretty dang good.

I then decided to bare shaft test at 20 yards (first time I tried and only because I accidentally grabed it) and my bare shft is hitting 4" right. 

Today I read your article and it appears if my arrow is bare shaft right of my fletched group, I need to tighten the left side and loosen the right which is opposite what I did yesterday to fix a hard right tear. What I am missing please?

Thanks


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## AngelRa

Thanks Wolbear for this info. I am hoping my hair pulling will be over!


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## dbuzz40

marked. great info!


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## nuts&bolts

jb-hunter said:


> OK.. I am lost here. Yesterday I had a hard right tear (bare shaft) amd I couldn't lose it unless going way out of centershot so I went to the forum for yoke tuning lessons. After reeading, I put one full turn on each right yoke, set my arrow at 7/8 and returned to paper. Perfect hole at 9'. Stepped out for a walkback tune, wind was blowing but 10, 20 and 30 was pretty dang good.
> 
> I then decided to bare shaft test at 20 yards (first time I tried and only because I accidentally grabed it) and my bare shft is hitting 4" right.
> 
> Today I read your article and it appears if my arrow is bare shaft right of my fletched group, I need to tighten the left side and loosen the right which is opposite what I did yesterday to fix a hard right tear. What I am missing please?
> 
> Thanks


Hello jb-hunter:

1) shoot some 40 yard or 60 yard groups, with fletched arrows
....and "fine tune" your arrow rest centershot position (horizontal adjustment)
....to make absolutely sure that your fletched arrow groups are CENTERED around the bullseye at long range

2) when you are sure that the arrow rest centershot position is DEAD ON, with fletched arrows...

3) now, try shooting at LEAST 2 bareshafts at 20 yards
....if the TWO bareshafts are slapping together, then you are VERY consistent with shooting technique
....if the bareshafts are NOT hitting together in the same spot, then the bareshafts are indicating that you need to work on bow hand position, relaxing the bow hand, posture, etc.

....so, if you repeatedly shoot at least 2 bareshafts, and after multiple attempts, the bareshafts are ALWAYS landing together, 4 inches to the right of the fletched arrow at 20 yards...

....then, yes....the fix is to twist the LEFT SIDE yoke cable leg say a twist shorter
....and, possibly untwist the RIGHT SIDE yoke cable leg the same amount longer


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## chadrico63

Nice post. I love learning stuff.


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## ride394

Marked for reference!


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## 57Loader

I have always felt that I can still shoot pretty good groups even when my center shot is off a little. What is the best way to set center shot before shooting bare shafts and adjusting the yoke?

Previously I have just eyeballed my centershot and started shooting bare shafts right away. I only went to twisting the yoke when adjusting the rest either way wasn't giving me results.


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## rmscustom

Great post. Marked


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## Wenty

Good timing...I was bored today, so...

First off, I shoot nice bullets fletched, from right at the paper to 20', good to go! Why worry about bare shaft as my groups out to 60 yds are just fine, when I'm shooting well, they're great. So...in my boredom today I grabbed a few bare shafts that are waiting on fletching, why not mess around. From 20yds the bare shaft hit 4" high and 4" right, from 40yds about 10" high and 10" right. I can watch the arrow in flight, nock down and left. I think I'll play around with bare shaft tuning! 

That all said, I was quite pleased I even hit the target with the bare shaft from 20-30-40yds...at least the bare shaft didn't impact sideways or backwards!!

These are the sorts of threads that make AT a great place to hang out. Now if only we could dust the crap threads and stick to these helpful, informative ones.


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## nuts&bolts

57Loader said:


> I have always felt that I can still shoot pretty good groups even when my center shot is off a little. What is the best way to set center shot before shooting bare shafts and adjusting the yoke?
> 
> Previously I have just eyeballed my centershot and started shooting bare shafts right away. I only went to twisting the yoke when adjusting the rest either way wasn't giving me results.


Try modified french tuning.

1) Target bag or block at point blank range, say 3 feet
2) pin a piece of paper with a nice straight vertical line (use a ruler)
3) fire a field point arrow at the line...you want to split the line with the arrow hole
4) if the arrow hole does not split the line (the line does not split the arrow hole in half)...tweak the sight pins windage setting (skosh left or right)
5) be picky...arrow hole just touching the line on the edge of the arrow hole is not good enough...vertical line must split the arrow hole dead center

6) now, just shoot arrow groups at a bullseye, at ANY longer distance
....could be 10 yards, could be 12 yards, whatever longer distance is available to you
....move the arrow rest, until the arrows are CENTERED around the bullseye

7) go back to shooting at 3 feet at the vertical line on the piece of paper
....tweak the sight pins windage, to get a perfect hole, where the vertical line splits the arrow hole

8) shoot long range, and tweak the arrow rest, so the arrows are CENTERED around the bullseye


Now that your arrows are creating arrow groups CENTERED around the bullseye at long range...

fire fletched arrows and a several bareshaft arrows
at say 5 yards, and see if they group together.

This is a test of shooting consistency/technique
AND
this is a test of bow adjustments.

If fletched arrows and bareshafts are all grouping together at 5 yards...

try again at 10 yards,
try again at 15 yards,
try again at 20 yards.

Shooting 1 bareshaft is NOT ENOUGH.
Gotta shoot at least 2 bareshafts,
and see if the bareshafts give you the SAME results (same point of impact...slapping together).

If BOTH bareshafts are hitting 4-inches to the RIGHT of the fletched arrows,
then...

go ahead,
and tweak the left side yoke cable leg (shorter...add a twist)
and
tweak the right side yoke cable leg (longer..remove a twist).

If the first bareshaft hits RIGHT of the fletched arrows
and
if the next bareshaft hits LEFT of the fletched arrows...

gotta do some more work on your shooting consistency.


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## ride394

So something just came to mind...

If we bare shaft tune so they group together to xx yards why do we use fletching at all? I mean just for target as you obviously need some steering with a broadhead tipped arrow.


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## hoytrulez

later use


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## Dado

N&B helped me also.
I tuned the bow today so I am hitting the 10 ring at 20yds with both bare and fletched shafts.
But since my strings are old I'm gonna be redoing the test past 20 yards after I put some new strings on the bow.
Anyways, if you can shoot groups with bare&fletched at 20yds that tells you that there is no significant flight correction done by vanes, IE, your arrows are flying straight and your outdoor groups should shrink.


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## Skeeter 58

ride394 said:


> So something just came to mind...
> 
> If we bare shaft tune so they group together to xx yards why do we use fletching at all? I mean just for target as you obviously need some steering with a broadhead tipped arrow.


Because of several reasons. 

First of all is the fact that it takes the best form one can do to shoot a bare shaft accurately. 

Second, you cannot shoot a broadhead without fletchings. 

Third, any lack of tuning in a bow will throw off a bare shaft easily. 

Skeet.


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## STKA

Great thread Wolbear. I'll be printing this out and using it to tune mine. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.


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## evasiveone

Marked.


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## dparsons

I have been doing bareshalf tuning for over twenty year and have post many times on Archery talk about it. There is alot more to it than just taking a bow with a bare shalf and a fletch shaft and shooting the target, but its the only tuning for me


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## Terry A

Great info!!


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## awal767

Amazing thread!!

What about bows that don't have a yoke though? Can they be bare-shaft tuned? (I'm thinking specifically of a Martin Shadowcat.)


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## Guardian Shoote

Op great read i agree Alan is one of this sites best assets. Also very knowledgeable about other stuff as well. Thanks Alan!


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## nuts&bolts

awal767 said:


> Amazing thread!!
> 
> What about bows that don't have a yoke though? Can they be bare-shaft tuned? (I'm thinking specifically of a Martin Shadowcat.)


Hello awal767:

If a bow has a yoke cable,
then,
adjusting the twists in the yoke cable legs,
allows you to fine tune the lateral nock travel 
(left to right movement of the arrow nock, when you release the arrow).

So,
for a bow with no yoke cable,
then,
adjusting the lateral nock travel is not quite so easy.


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## hrtlnd164

So if you are tuning the left/right impacts out with yoke tuning; how would you adjust on bows without yokes? Like the Darton or Monster systems with the harness.


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## hrtlnd164

Guess someone beat me to it...


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## nuts&bolts

hrtlnd164 said:


> So if you are tuning the left/right impacts out with yoke tuning; how would you adjust on bows without yokes? Like the Darton or Monster systems with the harness.


With the Monster system,
you have that LARGE ring.

I have not worked with a Monster,
but...


a) make sure that the straight section of the yoke cable is CENTERED at 6-o'clock at the bottom of the ring

and

b) I would wax the serving around the yoke leg (horseshoe cable) that goes around the ring,
....to make sure you are getting a true floating effect.


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## ride394

Skeeter 58 said:


> Because of several reasons.
> 
> First of all is the fact that it takes the best form one can do to shoot a bare shaft accurately.
> 
> Second, you cannot shoot a broadhead without fletchings.
> 
> Third, any lack of tuning in a bow will throw off a bare shaft easily.
> 
> Skeet.


I basically meant why don't the pros with "perfect form" and perfectly tuned bows shoot bare shafts?


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## jb-hunter

I am there... Bare shafts started at 4" right so I tightened the left side one turn and loosened the right one turn which threw bare shafts left about 4". 

Went back and loosened left 1/2 and tightened right 1/2. 

Did find bare shafts show grip and form changes a lot so when close shoot several. 

To say the least, here is a 20 yard shot after the tune. 






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## bambikiller

ttt


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## jb-hunter

And if Karbon is watching... I did it with the custom dipped Insanity I bought last week from you. Thanks 


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## Diggs223

any attempt to compensate for the fletch weight on the bare shaft ?


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## nuts&bolts

jb-hunter said:


> View attachment 1348535
> I am there... Bare shafts started at 4" right so I tightened the left side one turn and loosened the right one turn which threw bare shafts left about 4".
> 
> Went back and loosened left 1/2 and tightened right 1/2.
> 
> Did find bare shafts show grip and form changes a lot so when close shoot several.
> 
> To say the least, here is a 20 yard shot after the tune.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



VERY NICE.

Excellent job.


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## nuts&bolts

Diggs223 said:


> any attempt to compensate for the fletch weight on the bare shaft ?


You can, if you like.
I don't usually bother.

You see,
folks who shoot a COMPOUND bow,
with a release...

confuse arrow stiffness with bareshaft tuning.

Bareshaft tuning,
when using a release,
really has ZERO to do with arrow stiffness.

Bareshaft tuning,
for a compound bow, with a release,
has EVERYTHING to do with lateral nock travel,
so
we are trying to compensate for the top axle/limb tips untwisting,
after the arrow is released.

So,
when the lateral nock travel is tuned to the "sweet spot",
with the appropriate twists in the left side yoke cable leg
and 
with the appropriate twists in the right side yoke cable leg...

we the get the EXCELLENT results shown by jb-hunter, in post #37.

So,
if the BARESHAFT has zero vanes in back,
yes,
this means the DYNAMIC spine of the bareshaft is a bit WEAKER
than
the DYNAMIC spine of the fletched arrow...

and,
I'm saying it truly does NOT MATTER.

Cuz,
when we have the lateral nock travel tuned to PERFECTION,
like
in post #37,
as shown by jb-hunter...

the arrow spine (dynamic or static)
a little weak, a little stiff, or even CRAZY STIFF,
as long as we are talking target points or field points
(and not broadheads)...

the target arrows will give you BETTER arrow group sizes,
at all distances,
after you get the lateral nock travel dialed in,
with small adjustments to the twists in each yoke cable leg.


Now,
if we are going to broadhead tuning,
then,
make sure you are using the "properly spined" arrow shafts,
for best results.


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## nuts&bolts

Shooting a bareshaft
is a test of shooting technique,
is a test of "proper draw length setting"
is a test of lateral nock travel (yoke cable leg twists on each side).

If your bow is not adjusted to fit your body (most cases too long),
then the followthrough reaction for your release arm elbow
will end up pulling the bowstring sideways...

and getting results like post #37 will be extremely difficullt.


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## jb-hunter

I didn't,l and i did not read where others did either 

But shorting some more tonight I found that just practicing with bare shafts that you can make sure your form is good shot to shot because any change is amplified 5-10 times with the bare shafts flight. 


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## bambikiller

i think i will be tinkering tom after work


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## awal767

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello awal767:
> 
> If a bow has a yoke cable,
> then,
> adjusting the twists in the yoke cable legs,
> allows you to fine tune the lateral nock travel
> (left to right movement of the arrow nock, when you release the arrow).
> 
> So,
> for a bow with no yoke cable,
> then,
> adjusting the lateral nock travel is not quite so easy.


Is there any history with the idea of shimming the limb pocket to influence limb twist? I'd think it might yield similar results to yoke tuning. 

My bare shaft lands a good deal right and a little low, with the nock pointing up and left. If I were to put a little shim under the left side of the limb, could I expect to see some correction? Or would I just wind up cracking another limb?


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## Wenty

Ok, going to do some bare shaft tuning today...my question...

Bow in sig. Setup with the lazer for center shot. Timed and synced. To achieve a good paper tune, had to move the rest in towards the riser. Nice bullet holes setup this way...but powerpath of arrow is right of center shot, noticable...common. 

On to the question...Will bare shaft/yoke tuning, to achieve consistent grouping of both bare and fletched be counter productive at this point...as my powerpath isn't true center? Is it best to start fresh, center shot and yoke tune, rather than move the rest to achieve bullets...once that's set...bare shaft to fine tune fletched/bare groups? Or leave the rest as is, since it's shooting good and move on to bare shaft? As for buss cable adjustment(bare shaft tune), if I'm in time now, will adjusting the buss to achieve vertical grouping throw off cam timing?

Thanks in advance to nuts or anyone else that can shed some light.


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## Guardian Shoote

I shoot a VT and yes I would put your rest back to center and yolk tune. I bare shaft tune through paper at multi distances


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## aread

ride394 said:


> I basically meant why don't the pros with "perfect form" and perfectly tuned bows shoot bare shafts?


Because even Jesse & Reo have shots that aren't quite perfect. If they were 100% perfect every time, the Vegas shoot-off would still be going on

JMHO
Allen


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## peregrine82

ttt


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## aread

nuts&bolts said:


> Bareshaft tuning,
> for a compound bow, with a release,
> has EVERYTHING to do with lateral nock travel,
> so
> we are trying to compensate for the top axle/limb tips untwisting,
> after the arrow is released.


Have you looked at the effect of cable guard adjustment? 

Obviously not all bows have a cable guard that can be adjusted for lateral pressure. But on bows with an offset CG, it would seem that it would make a difference on the limb tip twist/untwist.

I've tried to test this a couple of times lately. But it's been so windy that I can't get reliable results. Increasing the pressure (moving the CG away from the arrow) seems to improve my left landing bare shafts. Or maybe not. I need to get inside to test this a little more without gusting wind.

Just wondered if you had looked into this.

Allen


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## nuts&bolts

aread said:


> Have you looked at the effect of cable guard adjustment?
> 
> Obviously not all bows have a cable guard that can be adjusted for lateral pressure. But on bows with an offset CG, it would seem that it would make a difference on the limb tip twist/untwist.
> 
> I've tried to test this a couple of times lately. But it's been so windy that I can't get reliable results. Increasing the pressure (moving the CG away from the arrow) seems to improve my left landing bare shafts. Or maybe not. I need to get inside to test this a little more without gusting wind.
> 
> Just wondered if you had looked into this.
> 
> Allen


Hello Allen:

Lateral nock travel is directly related to where you have your offset cable guard positioned.

This is where the lateral pressure is coming from,
and
tweaking the yoke cable legs,
is where we try to offset the sideways pressure,
so we have a balanced system.

So,
assuming we have an offset cable guard,
and the shooter has the cable guard set where he/she likes it (enough vane clearance),
then,
concepts still apply,
and we tweak the yoke cable legs,
to try and balance out the system,
so we get the cleanest lateral nock travel,
basically the best results for bareshaft and fletched shaft point of impact.

Haven't seen many offset cable guards lately....

seems most manufacturers are going with the straight rods.


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## Longbow42

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Allen:
> 
> Lateral nock travel is directly related to where you have your offset cable guard positioned.
> 
> This is where the lateral pressure is coming from,
> and
> tweaking the yoke cable legs,
> is where we try to offset the sideways pressure,
> so we have a balanced system.
> 
> So,
> assuming we have an offset cable guard,
> and the shooter has the cable guard set where he/she likes it (enough vane clearance),
> then,
> concepts still apply,
> and we tweak the yoke cable legs,
> to try and balance out the system,
> so we get the cleanest lateral nock travel,
> basically the best results for bareshaft and fletched shaft point of impact.
> 
> Haven't seen many offset cable guards lately....
> 
> seems most manufacturers are going with the straight rods.


How can you tune it out of a binary? Tilt Tamer? I just got a new Moxie and it has good top cam lean. I was able to get a fletched arrow to paper tune from point blank range, but not a bare shaft. I am thinking that the lean is impacting this? The bow shoots like a dream though. They also have a cable slide that works a little like a TT does, but not to the same effect.


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## Kevmc

2004 Ultratec...XT3000 limbs...5.0 spirals...30"dl..#56..TT spring steel 1 rest/.010 blade...Fatboy 400's with 80 gr, 29".
ATA, BH, Tiller, DL are spot on. Cam performance marks (top and bottom cams) are even, timing/sync look good....but my first set of spiral's!
Rest set so arrow is over Berger hole and nock is at 90* with most weight off the blade.
ISSUE I'm having is UNflecthed shafts hitting 8" low/nock high (L/R ok) relative to fletched shafts at 20 yds.
Fletched (busting nocks!) and unflecthed shafts group at 20 yds., but not together.

"IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)... 
then, add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable to adjust the cam position at full draw."

Tried opposite of above, took total of 2 full turns out of bus cable, 1/2 at a time, almost no change. (??????)
If I lower nock/raise rest i'd be below level......
?????


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## pybowhtr

I have had good sucess with bareshaft also. I used to be a paper guy all the way. I can shoot much better bareshaft tuning my rig also. Nice story thanks for sharing.:thumbs_up


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## abdapt

4 later


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## nuts&bolts

Kevmc said:


> 2004 Ultratec...XT3000 limbs...5.0 spirals...30"dl..#56..TT spring steel 1 rest/.010 blade...Fatboy 400's with 80 gr, 29".
> ATA, BH, Tiller, DL are spot on.
> 
> Cam performance marks (top and bottom cams) are even, timing/sync look good....but my first set of spiral's!
> 
> Rest set so arrow is over Berger hole and
> 
> 
> *nock is at 90* with most weight off the blade.*
> 
> 
> ISSUE I'm having is UNflecthed shafts hitting 8" low/nock high (L/R ok) relative to fletched shafts at 20 yds.
> Fletched (busting nocks!) and unflecthed shafts group at 20 yds., but not together.
> 
> "IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> then, add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable to adjust the cam position at full draw."
> 
> Tried opposite of above, took total of 2 full turns out of bus cable, 1/2 at a time, almost no change. (??????)
> If I lower nock/raise rest i'd be below level......
> ?????




1) nock the arrow onto the center serving, between the d-loop knots

2) keep the bow vertical

3) set the blade angle at 30 degrees above horizontal (use a protractor)

4) BLADE arrow rest is FULLY SUPPORTING the entire weight of the arrow, adjust the arrow rest elevation so the centerline of the arrow
....is at the centerline of the arrow rest holes

5) adjust the d-loop position, so that the arrow is at 90 degrees to the bowstring, while the blade arrow rest is FULLY supporting the weight of the arrow (bow is at rest)


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## Kevmc

Glad you chimed in N & B's!!!!!
I'm going to try it right now.......will post results.


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## nuts&bolts

Kevmc said:


> 2004 Ultratec...XT3000 limbs...5.0 spirals...30"dl..#56..TT spring steel 1 rest/.010 blade...Fatboy 400's with 80 gr, 29".
> ATA, BH, Tiller, DL are spot on. Cam performance marks (top and bottom cams) are even, timing/sync look good....but my first set of spiral's!
> Rest set so arrow is over Berger hole and nock is at 90* with most weight off the blade.
> ISSUE I'm having is UNflecthed shafts hitting 8" low/nock high (L/R ok) relative to fletched shafts at 20 yds.
> Fletched (busting nocks!) and unflecthed shafts group at 20 yds., but not together.
> 
> "IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> then, add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable to adjust the cam position at full draw."
> 
> Tried opposite of above, took total of 2 full turns out of bus cable, 1/2 at a time, almost no change. (??????)
> If I lower nock/raise rest i'd be below level......
> ?????


AFTER you have the d-loop repositioned,
so that the arrow shaft is at 90 degrees to the bowstring,
with the blade fully supporting the weight of the arrow,
with the bow at rest.....

now,
goto your draw board (build one, if you don't have one)
and get the bow to full draw.

Set the cam sync
so that you have zero gap top and bottom
and
then,
find the control cable 
and untwist a half twist,
so the control cable is a skosh longer,
so that the top cam draw stop hits the cable first
and
you have a credit card thickness of a gap
at the bottom draw stop peg.



NOW,
go and creep tune at 20 yards.

Tweak the control cable
a half twist at a time (either longer or shorter)
until you get all 6 arrows hitting the top edge of a horizontal piece of duct tape at 20 yards,
where the duct tape is at YOUR EXACT collar bone height.

3 arrows fired with normal pressure pulling into the wall.
3 arrows fired with HARDER than normal pressure pulling into the wall.

Tweak the control cable twists (half twist less...half twist more)
until you find the sweet spot for cam rotation position,
so that normal pulling into the wall or a bit HARDER into the wall,
has ALL arrows
hitting the same height above the ground (you aim at the top edge of the duct tape).


Now,
try the bareshaft experiment.

With control cable tweaking (CREEP TUNING) we adjust for VERTICAL NOCK TRAVEL
and try to get field point or target point arrows HITTING at the same height.


With yoke tuning,
we adjust LATERAL NOCK TRAVEL,
and get bareshafts to hit with fletched arrows.....we fix bare shaft impact that misses say 12-inches RIGHT of the fletched arrows,
by twisting the LEFT SIDE yoke cable leg shorter.

Once we FIX the horizontal miss.....bareshaft VERSUS fletched shafts.....with yoke cable leg tuning....

then,
we fix VERTICAL MISS....bareshaft HIGH or bareshaft LOW versus fletched arrows, with control cable twisting....(half twist longer or half twist shorter).


This assumes we have the d-loop set correctly,
and we have the blade arrow rest FULLY SUPPORTING the weight of the arrow (bow is at rest)
and
we have the blade arrow rest elevation set so that the arrow centerline and the arrow rest holes centerline match up.


----------



## nuts&bolts

When you are done,
you should be smacking nocks
at even LONGER distances.


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## aread

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Allen:
> 
> Lateral nock travel is directly related to where you have your offset cable guard positioned.
> 
> This is where the lateral pressure is coming from,
> and
> tweaking the yoke cable legs,
> is where we try to offset the sideways pressure,
> so we have a balanced system.
> 
> So,
> assuming we have an offset cable guard,
> and the shooter has the cable guard set where he/she likes it (enough vane clearance),
> then,
> concepts still apply,
> and we tweak the yoke cable legs,
> to try and balance out the system,
> so we get the cleanest lateral nock travel,
> basically the best results for bareshaft and fletched shaft point of impact.
> 
> Haven't seen many offset cable guards lately....
> 
> seems most manufacturers are going with the straight rods.


Thanks Alan,

My 2011 Supra with the single cam is the one that I'm most concerned with right now. For a right paper tear (or a left bare shaft), PSE's website says to move the guard closer to the arrow. However, Gold Tip's website says to move it away from the arrow. Since I already had it as close to the arrow as possible and still getting a right tear, I'm trying moving it away. If I can get out of the wind for a day, I'll let you know how it works out.

Unfortunately, I suspect that my problems are more likely related to items 1 & 2 in your post #43 above. :embara:

Allen


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## kc hay seed

this method is used for the bows with fixed yokes.what would the method be for the older hoyt bows with the floating yoks? thanks


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## bhanisch

Subscribed.


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## ex-okie

I'm in


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## searle7

Okay not to sound dumb...but how do you get so accurate? What I mean is I shoot out to sixty and I'm happy to get groups the size of a basketball. But that because how much I'm moving. (Can't keep my pin in the same dang spot) Granted I only have a normal rubber stabilizer but will the stabilizer make that much of a diference. I can't get better groups but I figured it's cause of my inaccurate self or could it be my bow?


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## nuts&bolts

kc hay seed said:


> this method is used for the bows with fixed yokes.what would the method be for the older hoyt bows with the floating yoks? thanks


If you have a floating yoke,
and you are noticing that the bareshaft is not hitting with the fletched arrows...

you always have the option to tie the floating yoke legs together
at the bottom of the "V" with say 1/4 inch of serving.

Then,
your floating yoke legs are now tied together,
and you can make the adjustments you need....

bareshaft missing to the right of the fletched,
then,
add twists to the left side yoke cable leg...

bareshaft missing to the left of the fletched arrows,
then,
add twists to the right side yoke cable leg...

keep adjusting,
until the fletched and bareshafts are hitting together (left-right adjustment for point of impact).


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## JPW77

Lots of great info here. Subscribing for future use.


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## Kahkon

good information.....Learned a few different things from reading it.....Subscribing to thread for the french tuning method...I always paper tuned and then walk backed tuned...


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## Kevmc

nuts&bolts said:


> When you are done,
> you should be smacking nocks
> at even LONGER distances.


I'm using your info...getting better......rain delay right now:thumbs_do
Where I'm at...
Set rest height so arrow/berger even
Set nock to 90* with full arrow weight on blade
Put on draw board and set cams
creep tuned, put 1/2 twist in control cable and all arrows hitting at same height.
Shot 3 flecthed arrows and 2 unfletched at 20 yds, unfletched hit 5" low/nock high and 2" left
Then the rain started.....more tomorrow....


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## knockhead

Subscribed


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## jawmarq

would taking a twist out of the top cam cable reduce top cam lean on a binary? and lead to better bs tuning?


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## spswihart

searle7 said:


> Okay not to sound dumb...but how do you get so accurate? What I mean is I shoot out to sixty and I'm happy to get groups the size of a basketball. But that because how much I'm moving. (Can't keep my pin in the same dang spot) Granted I only have a normal rubber stabilizer but will the stabilizer make that much of a diference. I can't get better groups but I figured it's cause of my inaccurate self or could it be my bow?


Work on the indian before you work on the bow... Go thru your form, read Nuts&Bolts of Archery, the Sticky on this forum. Get your shooting form as consistant as you can, work on your Draw Lenght, it is the key to pin stability. If your pin dances around quickly, remove a half twist in your bow string. If your pin drifts big and slow, add half twists until it stops moving, or get it the best you can. Then start supertuning the bow, but make sure the changes you make don't mess up your pin movement. I am in this process right now.


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## nuts&bolts

Kevmc said:


> I'm using your info...getting better......rain delay right now:thumbs_do
> Where I'm at...
> Set rest height so arrow/berger even
> Set nock to 90* with full arrow weight on blade
> Put on draw board and set cams
> creep tuned, put 1/2 twist in control cable and all arrows hitting at same height.
> Shot 3 flecthed arrows and 2 unfletched at 20 yds, unfletched hit 5" low/nock high and 2" left
> Then the rain started.....more tomorrow....


Ok.

We take this step by step.

First,
we fix the lateral nock travel....bareshafts hitting 2-inches LEFT.

1) to fix bareshafts hitting 2-inches LEFT.....shorten the right side yoke cable leg (half twist at a time)
....until you get the bareshafts (fire two bareshafts, if you can) hitting directly ABOVE or directly BELOW the fletched arrows.

2) NOTE: when fixing lateral nock travel....we will USUALLY notice the bareshafts hitting high or low....this is NORMAL

3) so, when bareshafts are hitting directly ABOVE or BELOW the fletched arrows...we FIXED lateral nock travel problem...

4) now, we go after the VERTICAL NOCK TRAVEL...(bareshaft has zero lateral error....but, bareshaft is hitting directly ABOVE or BELOW the fletched arrows)


Soooo,
the BARESHAFT is an UN-GUIDED missile.

So,
since the BARESHAFT is hitting low,
and
the nock end of the BARESHAFT is NOCK HIGH...

this makes sense,
since the bareshaft is DIVING DOWN.

So,
this tells me several things...


a) keep the bow hand wrist as RELAXED as possible (you MIGHT be applying pressure at the top of the bow hand, due to a STRESSED OUT wrist)

b) go find the control cable, and try UNTWISTING the control cable a FULL TWIST (LONGER DIRECTION)
....repeat the bareshaft test, and see if the bareshaft impacts a little higher

....SECOND ROUND (UNTWIST the control cable TWO FULL TWISTS...longer direction....
....repeat the bareshaft test, and see if the bareshaft impacts a little higher

....THIRD ROUND (UNTWIST the control cable FOUR FULL TWISTS....longer direction...
....repeat the bareshaft test, and see if the bareshaft impacts a little higher

....FOURTH ROUND (UNTWIST the control cable EIGHT FULL TWISTS....longer direction...
....repeat the bareshaft test, and see if the bareshaft impacts a little higher


Each time we try going in the UNTWIST direction, we DOUBLE the adjustment,
to see if we are going in the correct direction.

You will quickly find out where your SWEET SPOT for cam rotation is located,
to fix the VERTICAL NOCK TRAVEL issue (bareshaft hitting lower than fletched).

At some point,
the bareshaft will hit HIGHER than your fletched,
and you just go in the reverse direction (adjustments to the control cable) in small amounts...

just like jb-hunter in post # 37.



FIX the LATERAL nock travel issue first (bareshaft is hitting left or right of the fletched).

FIX the VERTICAL nock travel issue second (bareshaft is hitting higher or lower than the fletched).

VERY COMMON to fix the lateral nock travel issue, and then see a vertical nock travel issue.

So,
step 1 is going to be fix the yoke cable leg twists...
(bareshifts missing to the RIGHT of fletched arrows.....shorten left side yoke cable leg / lengthen right side yoke cable leg)...
(shoot multiple bareshafts, to confirm we have a bow adjustment issue and not a shooter technique inconsistency issue)...
Repeat adjustments until the bareshaft(s) are impacting directly ABOVE or BELOW fletched arrows.


Then,
step 2 is always going to be fixed the vertical nock travel issue 
(bareshafts missing DIRECTLY ABOVE or BELOW fletched arrows).
Vertical nock travel is cam sync.

I like to use twists (ADD or REMOVE twists in the control cable) to change cam rotation position at full draw.
Try a half twist adjustment.
Then, try an extra full twist (same direction adjustment).
Then, try an extra TWO full twists (same direction adjustment).
Then, try an extra FOUR full twists (same direction adjustment).

You will very easily see a change, and
you wil see if the direction you chose to go (either ADD twists or REMOVE twists)
is the correct direction for adjustment.


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## nuts&bolts

searle7 said:


> Okay not to sound dumb...but how do you get so accurate? What I mean is I shoot out to sixty and I'm happy to get groups the size of a basketball. But that because how much I'm moving. (Can't keep my pin in the same dang spot) Granted I only have a normal rubber stabilizer but will the stabilizer make that much of a diference. I can't get better groups but I figured it's cause of my inaccurate self or could it be my bow?


Hello searle7:

Good goal is 1-inch group per 10 yards.

So,
train at short distances...

setup a target face at 10 yards,
and try to keep your arrows inside 1-INCH.

If 1-inch groups at 10 yards becomes easy, and MIND NUMBINGLY boring to do 
(this is a good thing)
(it builds muscle memory)...

then,
try for 1.5-inch groups at 15 yards.

If you can only do this some of the time,
then, 15 yards is a good training distance
or
you can try and train at 14 yards,
to build familiarity, 
to build good habits for shot routine,
to build muscle memory.

If the pin is moving around "too much",
send me a photo of yourself at FULL DRAW,
via pm message, if you like.

Most likely,
we need to work on your shooting posture,
and
most likely,
need to tweak the anchor position,
and
most likely,
bow DL setting.


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## ontarget7

Lets not forget the right spine choice because without it you will absolutely pull your hair out bareshaft tuning. For instance I have 2 Helim's set up with the same specs other than arrow spine. The one I am shooting the GT 7595's and the other GT Velocity 300's. The Tactical set up with the 300's bare shaft tunes with ease but I can't say the same for the 7595's on my Lost Camo Helim. However being picky with my tuning on the weaker 7595's I can get just as good of groups as the 300's out to 80 yards and my broadheads both impact the same with each set up.


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## wolbear

ride394 said:


> I basically meant why don't the pros with "perfect form" and perfectly tuned bows shoot bare shafts?



My simple reply to this is as follows: they do use extremely small fletchings (especially the Asian shooters) so maybe they are using just enough to call it fletchings.


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## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> My simple reply to this is as follows: they do use extremely small fletchings (especially the Asian shooters) so maybe they are using just enough to call it fletchings.


It would be a matter of forgiveness IMO


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## wolbear

ontarget7 said:


> It would be a matter of forgiveness IMO


Or knowing that they HAVE to shoot their very best and have SERIOUS practice sessions in state of the art facilities, not the back yard with small bricks buried in the ground to mark yardages! LOL!!!


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## Diggs223

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Allen:
> 
> Lateral nock travel is directly related to where you have your offset cable guard positioned.
> 
> This is where the lateral pressure is coming from,
> and
> tweaking the yoke cable legs,
> is where we try to offset the sideways pressure,
> so we have a balanced system.
> 
> So,
> assuming we have an offset cable guard,
> and the shooter has the cable guard set where he/she likes it (enough vane clearance),
> then,
> concepts still apply,
> and we tweak the yoke cable legs,
> to try and balance out the system,
> so we get the cleanest lateral nock travel,
> basically the best results for bareshaft and fletched shaft point of impact.
> 
> Haven't seen many offset cable guards lately....
> 
> seems most manufacturers are going with the straight rods.


so is a bowtech flex style cable guide a benefit here ?


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## Macker

so, how do you do bareshaft with a bow without yolks......as in an older binary cam?


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## Macker

ttt


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## nuts&bolts

Macker said:


> so, how do you do bareshaft with a bow without yolks......as in an older binary cam?


The point of bareshaft tuning,
is to adjust the lateral nock travel on a bow.

So,
for a cable guard bow, with yoke cables,
tweaking the yoke cable legs lengths is an easy way to tweak/adjust lateral nock travel.


With a binary cam system,
with two control cables (cables with two end loops)
and
no yoke cable/buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)....

a binary cam system,
obviously,
has no direct connection to the axles.

The control cable tie each cam only to the other cam.


Lateral nock travel is not easily adjusted on a binary cam system.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each cam system.

If you try and flip the position of "thick" and "thin" precision washers on the axle
(cam spacers) you change the centershot characteristics of the bow
and will reduce vane clearance,
in order to try and get better lateral nock travel control.

This ASSUMES that your binary cam bow
is using a "thick" and "thin" cam spacer arrangement.

Unless you are comfortable with a complete teardown of your bow,
then,
for binary cam systems,
lateral nock travel is not adjustable.


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## BadgerT

Would it be possible to "help" with the lateral nock travel by tweaking the position of the cable guard on the binary systems?


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## nuts&bolts

BadgerT said:


> Would it be possible to "help" with the lateral nock travel by tweaking the position of the cable guard on the binary systems?


Sure,
if you have an offset cable guard,
try tweaking the rotation of the cable guard,
to get the minimum vane clearance.

When you do this,
you will probably need to readjust centershot position of the arrow rest.

When you tweak the cable guard for minimum vane clearance,
then,
you also will be cleaning up lateral nock travel,
cuz you have reduce the amount you are pulling the cables sideways.


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## BadgerT

Thanks, a friend has an Onza that I told him I would help him with and I wanted to make sure my thinking was on the right track.

Sometimes my common sense can get a little UNcommon if you know what I mean, and it's nice to get verification.

Just took a look at an Onza, not sure if the TRG system will allow any adjustment....HMMM.


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## fotal

When the bareshafts group close to the fletched at about the same height, and hits level,... but hits nock right which Y cable (the one with the Y attached to the top limbs or the bottom Y?) do I need to twist and which way (tighter or looser). Same question for hitting nock left. The bow is a binary with 2 cables each with a Y going to the opposite limbs and a single loop attached on the cam. Thanks


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## ToddM

One thing to really watch with the nock left/right or shaft "angle" as I'll call it is what your target is made out of because that can greatly influence the angle of a bare shaft.


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## nuts&bolts

fotal said:


> When the bareshafts group close to the fletched at about the same height, and hits level,... but hits nock right which Y cable (the one with the Y attached to the top limbs or the bottom Y?) do I need to twist and which way (tighter or looser). Same question for hitting nock left. The bow is a binary with 2 cables each with a Y going to the opposite limbs and a single loop attached on the cam. Thanks


What brand and model of bow?


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## AngelRa

I am using my backup Hoyt Vantage Elite Plus to experiment. My results may be different because of the bow used.

I experiment at night so it is shooting thought paper only.

My findings:

1- Yoke tuning. Changing the yoke twist ratio left to right while keeping the same buss cable length does affect the arrow fishtail. It is very effective to the point that no matter the arrow spine there is no lateral deviations. It also moves the center shot left or right, so it is better to set the center shot at factory spec and tune the yoke to match it.
2- Cam timing and sync. This is more difficult to test and validate, any change in timing also moves the nock point. To isolate the effect of timing and sync alone, after any change, the rest and nock point was reset to the initial position. So far this one proved to be ineffective to alter porpoising or vertical travel. Most of the claimed gains are due to the change in nock point caused by the cam angle change.
3- Nock point/rest height. This affect the vertical travel of the arrow and porposing.
4- Arrow spine. Tested 3 spines: very stiff, stiff, and matched. Only the matched produced bullet holes, the "stiff" produced a vertical tear and it grew larger with the "very stiff" shafts. There was no horizontal deviations.
5- Tiller. Does exactly the same as changing cam timing (#2 above)

Some details I noticed about my bow:
1- The nock point is closer to the top cam than the bottom cam.
2- The top and bottom cams have different perimeter shape (probably to compensate for #1 above).
3- Traced nock travel in a draw board and it curves about 1/16" up at the middle of the travel.

I feel that I pulled all my hair and still cannot get to the claimed "any" shaft spine bullet hole/bare shaft tuned as claimed by some people.

Also, to get a bullet hole my arrow sits pointing about a bubble up, opposite to the recommendations. I assume it is because of arrow spine.


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## fotal

Winchester Thunderbolt


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## nuts&bolts

AngelRa said:


> I am using my backup Hoyt Vantage Elite Plus to experiment. My results may be different because of the bow used.
> 
> I experiment at night so it is shooting thought paper only.
> 
> My findings:
> 
> 1- Yoke tuning. Changing the yoke twist ratio left to right while keeping the same buss cable length does affect the arrow fishtail. It is very effective to the point that no matter the arrow spine there is no lateral deviations. It also moves the center shot left or right, so it is better to set the center shot at factory spec and tune the yoke to match it.
> 2- Cam timing and sync. This is more difficult to test and validate, any change in timing also moves the nock point. To isolate the effect of timing and sync alone, after any change, the rest and nock point was reset to the initial position. So far this one proved to be ineffective to alter porpoising or vertical travel. Most of the claimed gains are due to the change in nock point caused by the cam angle change.
> 3- Nock point/rest height. This affect the vertical travel of the arrow and porposing.
> 4- Arrow spine. Tested 3 spines: very stiff, stiff, and matched. Only the matched produced bullet holes, the "stiff" produced a vertical tear and it grew larger with the "very stiff" shafts. There was no horizontal deviations.
> 5- Tiller. Does exactly the same as changing cam timing (#2 above)
> 
> Some details I noticed about my bow:
> 1- The nock point is closer to the top cam than the bottom cam.
> 2- The top and bottom cams have different perimeter shape (probably to compensate for #1 above).
> 3- Traced nock travel in a draw board and it curves about 1/16" up at the middle of the travel.
> 
> I feel that I pulled all my hair and still cannot get to the claimed "any" shaft spine bullet hole/bare shaft tuned as claimed by some people.
> 
> Also, to get a bullet hole my arrow sits pointing about a bubble up, opposite to the recommendations. I assume it is because of arrow spine.


1) set the arrow rest elevation so that the centerline of the arrow is at the same height as the arrow rest hole centerline
....set the arrow rest elevation then leave it alone...never to touch it again

2) set the d-loop position so that the arrow forms a 90 degree angle to the bowstring
....set the d-loop position and never touch it again

3) make all adjustments to the cables (buss cable or control cable) to achieve linear vertical nock travel
....the Hoyt cam systems have downward vertical nock travel
....if you have a properly designed vertical nock travel recording device..and you see a "bump or curve" in your nock travel, your cams are not synchronized correctly

cam timing and cam synchronization are two very different things.

In order to isolate cam timing and cam synch...technically, they cannot be isolated,
you must first establish your tiller parameters and confirm you have the same bending force for the upper and lower limb (same deflection).


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## nuts&bolts

fotal said:


> When the bareshafts group close to the fletched at about the same height, and hits level,... but hits nock right which Y cable (the one with the Y attached to the top limbs or the bottom Y?) do I need to twist and which way (tighter or looser). Same question for hitting nock left. The bow is a binary with 2 cables each with a Y going to the opposite limbs and a single loop attached on the cam. Thanks


Can you post a picture of your target?

Your bow is not a binary cam system.


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## Macker

Dang it! Oh, well.....my ally shoots really well anyway, but i am always striving for perfection. Looks like a new insanity for me in the near future.


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## ILOVE3D

Tagging this thread for future use. Thanks to both Wolbear and Alan for all this information.


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## KevinCaldwell

Tuning a dominator hybrid pro today. Had everything to spec, Cams timed, centershot set, nock point level. Shot thru paper and got very good hole(not quite perfect).
Went to bareshaft tune at 20 Yards. Bareshafts hit 4 inches to the right and low. Shortened left yolk and got bare shafts hitting directly under fletched. Then took twists out of buss cable. Could not get bareshafts to come up. After taking 3 twists out of buss the timing had gotten bad off. What would I do to fix this and get bare shafts to come up without getting totally out of whack on cam timing.


----------



## nuts&bolts

KevinCaldwell said:


> Tuning a dominator hybrid pro today. Had everything to spec, Cams timed, centershot set, nock point level. Shot thru paper and got very good hole(not quite perfect).
> Went to bareshaft tune at 20 Yards. Bareshafts hit 4 inches to the right and low. Shortened left yolk and got bare shafts hitting directly under fletched. Then took twists out of buss cable. Could not get bareshafts to come up. After taking 3 twists out of buss the timing had gotten bad off. What would I do to fix this and get bare shafts to come up without getting totally out of whack on cam timing.


What arrow rest?

Put the buss cable back to where you had it originally...

and work the control cable,
and try untwisting the control cable (make the control a skosh LONGER).


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## fotal

N&B, sorry, I get dual cam and binary mixed up. The target is layered foam, it was shot at shoulder height. It was too windy so we went inside and shot 18M, gave us about 2"nock left. Outside at 30M we were seeing about 4-5" nock left. Shot 3 sets, all pretty much the same.


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## nuts&bolts

fotal said:


> View attachment 1350119
> N&B, sorry, I get dual cam and binary mixed up. The target is layered foam, it was shot at shoulder height. It was too windy so we went inside and shot 18M, gave us about 2"nock left. Outside at 30M we were seeing about 4-5" nock left. Shot 3 sets, all pretty much the same.



At 30 meters,
where did the bareshafts impact the target?

Did the bareshafts hit the target with the fletched arrows?

Did the bareshafts hit to the right of the fletched arrows?
Did you fire more than 1 bareshaft?

4-5-inches nock left,
but
where was the point of the bareshaft arrows,
compared
to the point of the fletched arrows?


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## fotal

At 30m the points of the bareshafts were 1-3" to the right, outside the grouping of fletched, shot 2 bareshafts after shooting the fletched ones.


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## KevinCaldwell

Thanks Mr. N&B. Not sure what blade he has. I will try the control cable when he gets back from Georgia ASA. I just had to put the timing back good because we were under a time crunch.


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## sixgunluv

Marked.... this is crazy stuff.


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## Maui1911

Marked


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## jb-hunter

On a personal note regarding tuning "it's not always what it seems to be"

My boy bought from an AT Sponsor a new in the box BowTech Assassin this week and we got the upgraded Hostage Pro in the purchase. I opened the box, told him we would paper tune it real quick and step outside for final tune and get his sights dialed in. His first real interest in bows and his first bow he bought with his own money. 

Checked ATA, BH, turned limb bolts all the way down and backed off ¼ each. Set center-shot and moved to paper with a bare shaft at 9 feet. Almost 2” high and right tear. Moved rest a little, same tear, moved rest a lot, some better but same basic tear. 4 hours later, cables pulled, straighten, re-twisted to match each other identically, re-shot, same results, read on forums… tried more stuff, same results, high right tear. OK, try a different rest but the only other rest I had laying around not on a bow was a spring loaded prong rest, threw this on, same results so must not be the rest. I send N&B a PM.

Culprits suspected based on my results I gave N&B are imbalanced limb poundage (not matched) from the factory, one cable weaker than the other, and several other suggestions. Great recommendations, quick reply, and a much thanks to N&B for taking time to help me.

2 more hours into trying different cable tensions one at a time, dropping weight on top and then lower limb, re-center the center-shot each time, on and on. Same dang 1.5-2” high and right tear. 

10PM last night, threw hands up, reset cables and string back to factory settings and specs and then over to my new target bow I just finished tuning (this thread), cut the drop cord on the rest, moved rest to the Assassin, timed the rest and setup rest center shot…back to paper.

ONE shot at 9’ from paper with bare shaft, ¼” left tear, adjust rest, ONE more shot, perfect bullet hole!! Three more shots, perfect bullet holes!! It is now Midnight, un-freaking real. 8+ hours wasted (but learned) on a bow that apparently hates the Hostage Pro AND a prong rest but worked perfectlt the way it was supposed to with a drop away. 

Lesson learned.


----------



## nuts&bolts

fotal said:


> At 30m the points of the bareshafts were 1-3" to the right, outside the grouping of fletched, shot 2 bareshafts after shooting the fletched ones.


30 meters, and bareshafts 1-3 INCHES to the right,
is EXTREMELY good shooting.

So, if you are firing at least 2 bareshafts,
and can slap bareshafts together at 30 meters....

then,
HALF a twist extra on the left side yoke cable, should fix things right up.


----------



## nuts&bolts

jb-hunter said:


> On a personal note regarding tuning "it's not always what it seems to be"
> 
> My boy bought from an AT Sponsor a new in the box BowTech Assassin this week and we got the upgraded Hostage Pro in the purchase. I opened the box, told him we would paper tune it real quick and step outside for final tune and get his sights dialed in. His first real interest in bows and his first bow he bought with his own money.
> 
> Checked ATA, BH, turned limb bolts all the way down and backed off ¼ each. Set center-shot and moved to paper with a bare shaft at 9 feet. Almost 2” high and right tear. Moved rest a little, same tear, moved rest a lot, some better but same basic tear. 4 hours later, cables pulled, straighten, re-twisted to match each other identically, re-shot, same results, read on forums… tried more stuff, same results, high right tear. OK, try a different rest but the only other rest I had laying around not on a bow was a spring loaded prong rest, threw this on, same results so must not be the rest. I send N&B a PM.
> 
> Culprits suspected based on my results I gave N&B are imbalanced limb poundage (not matched) from the factory, one cable weaker than the other, and several other suggestions. Great recommendations, quick reply, and a much thanks to N&B for taking time to help me.
> 
> 2 more hours into trying different cable tensions one at a time, dropping weight on top and then lower limb, re-center the center-shot each time, on and on. Same dang 1.5-2” high and right tear.
> 
> 10PM last night, threw hands up, reset cables and string back to factory settings and specs and then over to my new target bow I just finished tuning (this thread), cut the drop cord on the rest, moved rest to the Assassin, timed the rest and setup rest center shot…back to paper.
> 
> ONE shot at 9’ from paper with bare shaft, ¼” left tear, adjust rest, ONE more shot, perfect bullet hole!! Three more shots, perfect bullet holes!! It is now Midnight, un-freaking real. 8+ hours wasted (but learned) on a bow that apparently hates the Hostage Pro AND a prong rest but worked perfectlt the way it was supposed to with a drop away.
> 
> Lesson learned.


EXCELLENT detective work.
You are as crazy as I am.


----------



## nuts&bolts

KevinCaldwell said:


> Thanks Mr. N&B. Not sure what blade he has. I will try the control cable when he gets back from Georgia ASA. I just had to put the timing back good because we were under a time crunch.


With a blade,
check the blade angle...

I like to use 30 degrees above horizontal (use a protractor).

Then,
with the blade fully supporting the weight of the arrow,
raise the arrow rest elevation adjustment
until the centerline of the arrow is matching the centerline of the arrow rest holes.

Now,
confirm that the d-loop position,
has the arrow at 90 degrees or maybe 1/16th above 90 degrees (arrow is a teeny itsy bitsy bit downhill)
when the arrow rest blade is FULLY supporting the weight of the arrow on the blade.



Since your bareshafts are hitting low...
you MIGHT need to increase the angle of the blade a little MORE than you current have,
which will make the BLADE behave a bit stiffer, and provide a bit MORE support.

If you MAKE the blade angle STEEPER a little bit,
go and re-adjust the arrow rest height adjustment,
so that the centerline of the arrow and the centerline of the arrow rest holes
line up again,
with the new, slightly STEEPER blade angle.


----------



## kc hay seed

nuts and bolts; thanks again for all the good information.i enjoy reading your posts.


----------



## Flonuzzo

nuts&bolts said:


> With a blade,
> check the blade angle...
> 
> I like to use 30 degrees above horizontal (use a protractor).
> 
> Then,
> with the blade fully supporting the weight of the arrow,
> raise the arrow rest elevation adjustment
> until the centerline of the arrow is matching the centerline of the arrow rest holes.
> 
> Now,
> confirm that the d-loop position,
> has the arrow at 90 degrees or maybe 1/16th above 90 degrees (arrow is a teeny itsy bitsy bit downhill)
> when the arrow rest blade is FULLY supporting the weight of the arrow on the blade.


Thanks for all the great info N&B.

I'm in the process of trying to papertune a Darton DS3800. Dual sync cams with a harness top and bottom. I'm currently getting a right tear that I can't seem to cure unless I have the arrow pointing hard left,( tip of a 29" arrow left about 2 inch from center) While I can still get groups out to 50 yds, it just doesn't look right.

Darton support and bow manual suggests initial setup as follows: bottom of arrow through center of berger hole with nock set 1/8" to 3/16" high. Would you're recommended starting settings as above make a difference, or stick with Darton's recommendations??

using a TT blade rest with .010 spring.


----------



## OCD

subscribed


----------



## nuts&bolts

Flonuzzo said:


> Thanks for all the great info N&B.
> 
> I'm in the process of trying to papertune a Darton DS3800. Dual sync cams with a harness top and bottom. I'm currently getting a right tear that I can't seem to cure unless I have the arrow pointing hard left,( tip of a 29" arrow left about 2 inch from center) While I can still get groups out to 50 yds, it just doesn't look right.
> 
> Darton support and bow manual suggests initial setup as follows: bottom of arrow through center of berger hole with nock set 1/8" to 3/16" high. Would you're recommended starting settings as above make a difference, or stick with Darton's recommendations??
> 
> using a TT blade rest with .010 spring.


Hello Flonuzzo:

1) use whatever is your favorite method to get your sight pins windage set
....and your arrow rest horizontal position (centershot) adjusted
....group tune at 50 yards and play with your arrow rest position to get the absolute tighest groups CENTERED around the bullseye

2) now, if you like to paper tune or just shoot a bareshat into a target at 20 yards
....right paper tear, implies that the bareshafts (shoot at least two) will land to the LEFT of the fletched arrows...POINT of IMPACT for the bareshaft is LEFT of fletched


3) So, Darton is using a plastic half moon for a "floating yoke" cable setup.
....I have not tried this yet, but I suggest pressing the bow
....and using a length of serving thread, find a way to tie down the "yoke" directly to the plastic half moon to ELIMINATE the floating feature
....tie say 5 wraps of serving thread around the short yoke cable on the left side and then use the tag ends to tie the yoke to the half moon, through a hole
....tie say 5 wraps of serving thread around the short yoke cable on the right side and then use the tag ends to tie the yoke to the half moon, through another hole

....now you have locked down the "floating yoke" setup with the plastic half moon, and now you have a "static" yoke setup with a plastic half moon

4) bareshaft point of impact off LANDING LEFT of the fletched arrows (right paper tear)
....twist the RIGHT SIDE yoke cable leg shorter
....untwist the LEFT SIDE yoke cable leg longer


Let us know what happens.

If this cleans up the bareshaft and fletched arrows, so you no longer have horizontal changes in point of impact...

then,
you MIGHT need to twist/untwist the control cable
to fix a vertical difference in point of impact.

When you get the bareshafts AND fletched hitting together at 20 yards...

then,
your fletched groups should be hitting tighter at all distances.


----------



## fotal

Thanks N&B, the +1/2 turn on the left straightened out the bareshafts at 18m. We'll go outside tomorrow and try the 30m. 
so:
Nock right - tighten right
Nock left - tighten left


----------



## spswihart

N&B
You might remember, you talked me thru adjusting the cam rotation starting position on my Mathews DXT last week. Tonight I went thru bare shaft tuning. Started out bare shaft hitting in line with but 5" left of fletched arrows. Bare shafts nock at least 5" right of impact point (at 15 yds), Three twists into the right leg and three twists out of the left and everything lined up. Bare shafts straight with and grouped with the fletched arrows. Shooting great, but the idler wheel looks reeled in on the right. Didn't jump the track, but at rest, arrow on the idler wheel is 1/4" off the string at the nock point. Idler wheel looks straight at full draw. 

I'm happy with the results. I was shooting bare shafts in with fletched arrows at 20 yds, and you couldn't tell the difference. 
Thanks. 
Steve


----------



## nuts&bolts

spswihart said:


> N&B
> You might remember, you talked me thru adjusting the cam rotation starting position on my Mathews DXT last week. Tonight I went thru bare shaft tuning. Started out bare shaft hitting in line with but 5" left of fletched arrows. Bare shafts nock at least 5" right of impact point (at 15 yds), Three twists into the right leg and three twists out of the left and everything lined up. Bare shafts straight with and grouped with the fletched arrows. Shooting great, but the idler wheel looks reeled in on the right. Didn't jump the track, but at rest, arrow on the idler wheel is 1/4" off the string at the nock point. Idler wheel looks straight at full draw.
> 
> I'm happy with the results. I was shooting bare shafts in with fletched arrows at 20 yds, and you couldn't tell the difference.
> Thanks.
> Steve


Hello Steve:

Excellent news!

Take a picture, next time.


----------



## spswihart

N&B
Should I be concerned about the idler wheel lean being off? Would it work if I put the twists back like they were to get the idler wheel lean back to Mathews specs, then chase the fishtail with the rest. Move the rest towards the riser to get rid of the left impact of the bare shaft.


----------



## nuts&bolts

spswihart said:


> N&B
> Should I be concerned about the idler wheel lean being off? Would it work if I put the twists back like they were to get the idler wheel lean back to Mathews specs, then chase the fishtail with the rest. Move the rest towards the riser to get rid of the left impact of the bare shaft.



Nope,
won't work.

1) shoot with fletched arrows at LONG range, to find the arrow rest centershot position,
....that gives you the TIGHTEST groups, that are CENTERED around the bullseye

2) shoot with a single fletched arrow at 3 FEET, at the edge of a vertical piece of paper,
....and tweak the sight pin windage, to get the arrow hole centered perfectly on top of the edge of paper

3) when you are satisfied that your arrow rest horizontal position provides arrow groups that are CENTERED around a bullseye at short and LONG RANGE....

...do NOT MOVE THE ARROW REST.

4) now,
....fire a bare shaft at 20 yards...even better, fire TWO BARESHAFTS at 20 yards, and fletched arrows

5) if the bareshafts are hitting to the RIGHT of the fletched arrow...

....do NOT be afraid to get out the portable bow press, and shorten the top left yoke cable leg, and lengthen the top right yoke cable leg
....follow this procedure, IF your bow DL is correct for your body parts length (no leaning back....end of arrow shaft is at the FRONT curvature of your eyeball)
....if you follow these procedures, assuming your bow DL setting fits your body parts....you will get BETTER group sizes.

If you are more comfortable following Mathews specs, for the idler wheel lean, with the arrow touching the idler wheel and the point touching the d-loop...

then,
gotta do what you gotta do.


If you are getting fishtail,
side-to-side swaying of the back end of the arrow,
then,
you have fletching contact that you need to fix.


----------



## outdoorkid1

very informative thread


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## spswihart

I'm not having any problems that I know of. Just don't know if I should be concerned about the idler wheel lean. I think the bow is shooting better, fletched and bare shafts hitting straight, busted. Pin nock on a X-cutter after tuning last night. I just don't know enough to be worried. 
THANKS for your help Allen 
Steve


----------



## jfuller17

Ok my buddy has a Vector 35 and has been having some issues with tuning it. So today it was raining hard and there was no turkey hunting. We sat down and found some part I had laying around and came up with this. We now have ZERO cam lean. The bow shoots a perfect bullet hole through paper with a bare shaft and also will match the flected arrow with a bare shaft at 20 yards. The other thing is the pins are almost perfectly inline with the string now as well. Tuned very easy and lost no speed at all doing this. And before we get hammered we do know that Hoyt wont cover this modification. The roller guard can be bolted right back on if needed. This set-up is so much more forgiving then the way it was.


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## dbuzz40

Hey I think that's my bow! lol Jason it was a fun day and I'm glad we could do it. Sometimes people tell us we tinker too much but I don't think so :wink: Seriously though I'm looking forward to spending a little more time with the bow to really get a feel for it. The bow is shooting great with bareshafts impacting the same as fletched at 20 with no problem! Let's kill some gobblers in the morning!


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## ontarget7

jfuller17 said:


> Ok my buddy has a Vector 35 and has been having some issues with tuning it. So today it was raining hard and there was no turkey hunting. We sat down and found some part I had laying around and came up with this. We now have ZERO cam lean. The bow shoots a perfect bullet hole through paper with a bare shaft and also will match the flected arrow with a bare shaft at 20 yards. The other thing is the pins are almost perfectly inline with the string now as well. Tuned very easy and lost no speed at all doing this. And before we get hammered we do know that Hoyt wont cover this modification. The roller guard can be bolted right back on if needed. This set-up is so much more forgiving then the way it was.


Very nicely done :thumbs_up


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## saltwell

Marked for future reference.


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## wolbear

searle7 said:


> Okay not to sound dumb...but how do you get so accurate? What I mean is I shoot out to sixty and I'm happy to get groups the size of a basketball. But that because how much I'm moving. (Can't keep my pin in the same dang spot) Granted I only have a normal rubber stabilizer but will the stabilizer make that much of a diference. I can't get better groups but I figured it's cause of my inaccurate self or could it be my bow?


I can honestly say, practice,practice,practice. A fellow shooter (he was quite a 3-d shooter) advised me to practice till I thought I was good enough, then practice that much more and repeat the process.


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## ontarget7

Its been awhile since I bare shaft tuned so I figured I would do it again. I have 2 identical bows set up with the same specs. One with a slightly weaker spine in the 7595's the other GT Velocity 300's which are spined accordingly. I can get both to shoot fixed blades the same as field points out to 80 yards. The 300's are bare shaft tuning on the money with field points out to 40 yards. The closest I can get the 7595's were spot on at 20 yards but they have a slight tail kick to them due the the weaker spine. I was hoping for some slight shrinking of my long range groups but right now they both are shooting about the same size groups at 80 yards.
Just knowing the flight is truer on the 300's when bare shaft tuning makes me want to shoot them more than the 7595's now. Even thou they both fly equally as well when fletched out to 80 yards.


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## bambikiller

im willing to bet you will see a difference in the tunning when and or if you throw on a big fixed blade thats where tunning shines


ontarget7 said:


> Its been awhile since I bare shaft tuned so I figured I would do it again. I have 2 identical bows set up with the same specs. One with a slightly weaker spine in the 7595's the other GT Velocity 300's which are spined accordingly. I can get both to shoot fixed blades the same as field points out to 80 yards. The 300's are bare shaft tuning on the money with field points out to 40 yards. The closest I can get the 7595's were spot on at 20 yards but they have a slight tail kick to them due the the weaker spine. I was hoping for some slight shrinking of my long range groups but right now they both are shooting about the same size groups at 80 yards.
> Just knowing the flight is truer on the 300's when bare shaft tuning makes me want to shoot them more than the 7595's now. Even thou they both fly equally as well when fletched out to 80 yards.


----------



## ontarget7

bambikiller said:


> im willing to bet you will see a difference in the tunning when and or if you throw on a big fixed blade thats where tunning shines


I have shot the 2 blade Stingers, Slick Tricks and they both impacted the same with both set ups. Archery is mental and the reason why I will probably stay with the 300's.


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## wolbear

I'm using the 7595's as well, out of the Reezen and Easton Axis N-fused thru the Z7 (switched them again to get a little more speed from the Reezen) I can say the 7595's with a 125 gr. tip seem to work good, I have been thinking of dropping to a 100 grain tip. What are your thoughts ontarget?


----------



## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> I'm using the 7595's as well, out of the Reezen and Easton Axis N-fused thru the Z7 (switched them again to get a little more speed from the Reezen) I can say the 7595's with a 125 gr. tip seem to work good, I have been thinking of dropping to a 100 grain tip. What are your thoughts ontarget?


What are your specs now? The 7595's I have been shooting have been out of my Helim at 68# 29" draw cut to 27.50" raw shaft 100 gr tip. I might try cutting them to 27" raw shaft and see if I can get them to bare shaft tune better. I doubt it thou since I tried 85gr tips as well


----------



## wolbear

Reezen 7.0 65# (assuming 66-67# actual) 28" draw (might go back to 28.5") arrows cut at 28"


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## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> Reezen 7.0 65# (assuming 66-67# actual) 28" draw (might go back to 28.5") arrows cut at 28"


I think you might tune a bit better with 100 gr.


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## wolbear

OK, you are the tuning guru! I will try the 100 gr tips early next week when I have a day off. Work nights all weekend at the 911 center!


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## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> OK, you are the tuning guru! I will try the 100 gr tips early next week when I have a day off. Work nights all weekend at the 911 center!


Not really bro. Just shoot a lot a different bows with a lot of different set ups and picky on my long range shooting. You get a feel for what works and what doesn't. 
If you don't mind, keep me posted what you come up with. When bare shaft tuning with the 125 gr tips was your entry dead straight in line or a slight tail kick to one side ? Just curious


----------



## ToddM

This thread should be a sticky in the tuning section, I honestly believe it's got some of the best tuning info in it, and explanations on what/why the tuning does as any post/article I've ever read. The idea that bare shaft flight is mostly due to nock travel both vertical and horizontal and to a much lesser extent arrow spine is genius. 

A long time shooting buddy of mine were at the range the other day and he was working on setting up an EVO and in the past we've always used bare shafts to do nock/rest height, but never left/right because we never really felt moving the rest worked consistently (and it never agreed with the walk back results), neither did spine adjustment (in that small or even large spine changes didn't seem to significantly affect the bare shaft results), so we'd adjust the cam lean out with a laser /arrow shaft, time/sync the cams, walk back/french tune for centershot, creep tune and go with that. Well, I had taken notes on this thread to work on my ultratec that I was getting bare shafts to the left turned out to be rest contact (you know you have a drop away problem when it's putting grooves in the wrapped masking tape at the rear of a bare shaft!). 

Anyway, his bare shafts were hitting about a foot to the left at 20, so I said "hey I read a bunch of new info on this and I really think it makes sense lets try it" he was a little resistant because we've always never worried much about left/right with bare shafts but I convinced him to try it out. So we pressed the bow put a half turn on the right harness and took a half turn off the left harness, moved it about 2" closer, did that 4-5 more times and the left/right was as good as his pin float, but the elevation changed a bit but a small bus cable length adjustment brought them right together consistently, checked the timing and it looked good, took maybe 30 minutes. Neither of us put much stock in paper tuning but we shot it through paper for giggles at a couple distances, near perfect bullet hole. It still might need some small adjustments of course at longer ranges and some group/creep tuning etc.

I have to say we were both beside ourselves, for years we've bounced technical/tuning ideas off each other, what works, what doesn't, and we've never had something so simple with such consistent adjustment results on paper/bare shaft tuning. I'm sure spine still plays a part in all of it, but it seems like the vast majority of the bare shaft performance/tuning is simply due to nock travel issues and if the spine is in the ballpark you can get great results. Spine is probably a bigger issue with fixed blade broadheads I'd imagine. 

Which leads me to my next question, I've never shot a broadhead bareshaft (just sounds like a really dangerous/bad idea!) what if anything do you guys change in this method to tune a fixed blade setup? or do you find that once you get field points and bare shafts shooting this well together at 20-30 yards with the previous tuning methods that broadheads typically don't need any more tweaking/tuning?


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> This thread should be a sticky in the tuning section, I honestly believe it's got some of the best tuning info in it, and explanations on what/why the tuning does as any post/article I've ever read. The idea that bare shaft flight is mostly due to nock travel both vertical and horizontal and to a much lesser extent arrow spine is genius.
> 
> A long time shooting buddy of mine were at the range the other day and he was working on setting up an EVO and in the past we've always used bare shafts to do nock/rest height, but never left/right because we never really felt moving the rest worked consistently (and it never agreed with the walk back results), neither did spine adjustment (in that small or even large spine changes didn't seem to significantly affect the bare shaft results), so we'd adjust the cam lean out with a laser /arrow shaft, time/sync the cams, walk back/french tune for centershot, creep tune and go with that. Well, I had taken notes on this thread to work on my ultratec that I was getting bare shafts to the left turned out to be rest contact (you know you have a drop away problem when it's putting grooves in the wrapped masking tape at the rear of a bare shaft!).
> 
> Anyway, his bare shafts were hitting about a foot to the left at 20, so I said "hey I read a bunch of new info on this and I really think it makes sense lets try it" he was a little resistant because we've always never worried much about left/right with bare shafts but I convinced him to try it out. So we pressed the bow put a half turn on the right harness and took a half turn off the left harness, moved it about 2" closer, did that 4-5 more times and the left/right was as good as his pin float, but the elevation changed a bit but a small bus cable length adjustment brought them right together consistently, checked the timing and it looked good, took maybe 30 minutes. Neither of us put much stock in paper tuning but we shot it through paper for giggles at a couple distances, near perfect bullet hole. It still might need some small adjustments of course at longer ranges and some group/creep tuning etc.
> 
> I have to say we were both beside ourselves, for years we've bounced technical/tuning ideas off each other, what works, what doesn't, and we've never had something so simple with such consistent adjustment results on paper/bare shaft tuning. I'm sure spine still plays a part in all of it, but it seems like the vast majority of the bare shaft performance/tuning is simply due to nock travel issues and if the spine is in the ballpark you can get great results. Spine is probably a bigger issue with fixed blade broadheads I'd imagine.
> 
> Which leads me to my next question, I've never shot a broadhead bareshaft (just sounds like a really dangerous/bad idea!) what if anything do you guys change in this method to tune a fixed blade setup? or do you find that once you get field points and bare shafts shooting this well together at 20-30 yards with the previous tuning methods that broadheads typically don't need any more tweaking/tuning?




CONGRATS!

Glad you like the tips/pointers.

I would make sure that your insert is ground DEAD square to the arrow shaft (G5 Arrow squaring device)
and
pull the arrow nock, and grind the end of the arrow shaft DEAD square, and re-install your nock.

If you are really anal,
then pull the insert,
grind the end of the arrow shaft DEAD SQUARE,
and then use hot melt and reinstall your insert.

Check the broadhead spins true on an arrow spinner...

and then,
test everything out.

I think you will be pleased with the results.


----------



## wolbear

Alan can correct me if I'm wrong but when you do your broadhead tuning it is done with fletched arrows and broadheads. You have to have the fletchings to help steer the BH. During this process you are simply making small adjustments to your arrow rest to get BH and FT grouping together.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolbear said:


> Alan can correct me if I'm wrong but when you do your broadhead tuning it is done with fletched arrows and broadheads. You have to have the fletchings to help steer the BH. During this process you are simply making small adjustments to your arrow rest to get BH and FT grouping together.


Yes.

When you proceed to BROADHEAD tuning,
this will always be with fletched field points
and with fletched broadhead arrows.

The blades up front actually fight against
the vanes in back.


So,
normally, folks would tweak the arrow rest to try and get 
the broadheads and field points to hit together.


So,
how about we get fletched field points to group as tightly as we can,
shooting at long range (group tuning).

Then,
when we are sure that fletched field point arrows are grouping tight
and CENTERED around the bullseye at your max shooting distance for BROADHEADS...

then,
try your broadhead arrows at the same max shooting distance,
and YOKE tune 
for matched broadhead and field point impact...

at least, for fixing any lateral - horizontal miss
between field points and broadheads,
to clean up any lateral nock travel.

The broadhead arrows will MORE sensitive to lateral nock travel in the top cam.


----------



## ontarget7

wolbear said:


> Alan can correct me if I'm wrong but when you do your broadhead tuning it is done with fletched arrows and broadheads. You have to have the fletchings to help steer the BH. During this process you are simply making small adjustments to your arrow rest to get BH and FT grouping together.


I would agree broadheads would be shot with fletched arrows. Alan is always great at explaining things and far better than myself so I am sure he will respond as well. 

This is why I lean towards the slightly stiffer spine and have better overall results broadheads to fieldpoints impacting the same. When you put a broadhead on you are changing the dynamic spine a bit and the need for the slightly stiffer spine in most cases. Especially when you shoot longer yardages say 50 + with broadheads.


----------



## ToddM

This is certainly getting way ahead of myself and my shooting ability with this question but do you find a point in the tuning process when say a half twist on something is too much adjustment, and does the tuning stop at that point or is there a finer adjustment that can be made? I've ran into that creep tuning before say at 50 yards getting slightly high arrows pulled hard into the wall, but a half twist adjustment was getting slightly low arrows, so I'd error on the high side and stop my tuning at that point.


----------



## buckhunter1

REmarked


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> This is certainly getting way ahead of myself and my shooting ability with this question but do you find a point in the tuning process when say a half twist on something is too much adjustment, and does the tuning stop at that point or is there a finer adjustment that can be made? I've ran into that creep tuning before say at 50 yards getting slightly high arrows pulled hard into the wall, but a half twist adjustment was getting slightly low arrows, so I'd error on the high side and stop my tuning at that point.


Yes.

The Hoyt cams are very sensitive to control cable and buss cable adjustments,
for cam sync purposes.

Most times,
a half twist adjustment is all you need, to get the CREEP TUNING results you are looking for.

This is why I will build custom cables (buss and control) with VERY low twist ratio,
to allow for fine tuning.

I typically build a TEST cable to get the correct final twisted length,
then,
I will build the FINAL cable at the correct final twisted length,
but build with a low twist ratio, say 1 twist per 2-inches,
so that a half twist makes a VERY VERY small change in length.


If the twist ratio is tight, in the cables,
say 1 twist per inch...then,
a half twist becomes too much of an adjustment in the control cable.



Side Note:

My VERY first customer to my "Shooting and Tuning School"
was Fleahop all the way from Alabama.

He flew all the way to the West Coast, to train with some guy,
he had never met before.

Came with 3 Hoyt ProElites and a 4th ProElite riser and limbs and all kinds of cams (large pile of parts).
When he got here, he discovered Predator's Archery down in Gilroy and bought some more Hoyt cams.

We built a "frankenbow", and spent the better part of a week, getting cable and string lengths
correct...went WAY beyond Hoyt factory specs, and we were tweaking final twisted lengths
on the string and the cables to get the FEEL just right.

Send Fleahop a pm.

After our 1 solid week of training, tuning (the shooter and the bows)...
he went on to win the State of Alabama 900 round and the State of Alabama Indoor Championship,
for the first time.


So,
YES,
at a certain shooting level,
the twist ratio in the cables,
can affect whether a HALF TWIST adjustment
creates TOO LARGE of an adjustment for cam sync position.....in particular, the control cable
for a hybrid cam system.

The solution is to use a LESS tight twist ratio in the cables.


----------



## Elipapa

Great question! How can I bare shaft tune a binary cam with no yokes. I have an assassin and would love to get it shooting better!


----------



## wolbear

Hey mods, how about making this a sticky for others to learn from all the different material listed in this post!! Thanks!


----------



## Fleahop

Hey Alan

How is Kings Mtn looking? I am just wondering where you come up with all this information...You cease amaze me. We need to talk. Ya'll should meet this guy. have a great day.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Elipapa said:


> Great question! How can I bare shaft tune a binary cam with no yokes. I have an assassin and would love to get it shooting better!


Every cam system has advantages and disadvantages.

The Bowtech Assassin is a 2 track binary cam system,
so....

you have a bowstring and two control cables...

no yokes,
so the lateral nock travel is not adjustable with this system.


----------



## ToddM

I was thinking spacer swapping might work on the binary cams but that's a huge pain and you mess with your centershot as well every time you change the spacer setup which I'd think would be a lot of "chasing" one thing to get another. 

So that begs the question, obvious there's a lot of popular binary cam bows out there without harnesses and even guys shooting them competitively at a high level. So are the manufacturers doing a really good job of ensuring their these bows have very little lateral nock travel, or are the really good shooters just dealing with having a slightly less forgiving/tuned bow by tuning the rest of the aspects of the bow as best they can and not worrying about the lateral nock travel?


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> I was thinking spacer swapping might work on the binary cams but that's a huge pain and you mess with your centershot as well every time you change the spacer setup which I'd think would be a lot of "chasing" one thing to get another.
> 
> So that begs the question, obvious there's a lot of popular binary cam bows out there without harnesses and even guys shooting them competitively at a high level. So are the manufacturers doing a really good job of ensuring their these bows have very little lateral nock travel, or are the really good shooters just dealing with having a slightly less forgiving/tuned bow by tuning the rest of the aspects of the bow as best they can and not worrying about the lateral nock travel?


The Bowtech Overdrive Binary cam systems have a yoke system, now.

The Mathews AVS cam system also uses a yoke system.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> I was thinking spacer swapping might work on the binary cams but that's a huge pain and you mess with your centershot as well every time you change the spacer setup which I'd think would be a lot of "chasing" one thing to get another.
> 
> So that begs the question, obvious there's a lot of popular binary cam bows out there without harnesses and even guys shooting them competitively at a high level. So are the manufacturers doing a really good job of ensuring their these bows have very little lateral nock travel, or are the really good shooters just dealing with having a slightly less forgiving/tuned bow by tuning the rest of the aspects of the bow as best they can and not worrying about the lateral nock travel?


I didn't want to go there.

Sure, you could do a side to side swap of spacers, IF the spacers are paired "thick" and "thin".

Definitely do not want to get into manufacturing your own shim stock...
(even thought that's what I did to install Hoyt Spiral X cams onto my Mathews Apex 7).


----------



## wolbear

nuts&bolts said:


> I didn't want to go there.
> 
> Sure, you could do a side to side swap of spacers, IF the spacers are paired "thick" and "thin".
> 
> Definitely do not want to get into manufacturing your own shim stock...
> (even thought that's what I did to install Hoyt Spiral X cams onto my Mathews Apex 7).



Oh, now you did it! I REALLY want to put dual cams (thought about some old High Country cams) on the Reezen and converting it into a true 2 cam or even a set of spirals. I wish I lived closer to you! Maybe I'll have to send the bow to you and have you "Frankenbow" it for me!!


----------



## Fleahop

Be careful what you do...Spiral X cams on a old wood limb bow caused limb failure. I am not trying to discourage anyone from having fun just be careful.


----------



## michael rankin

I have a question on a pse x force. I started out with the cams in sync at rest (timming marks on cams are both centered on the cables) and everything else on the bow is set to factory specs. At this point the bottom cam was advanced quite a a bit at full draw. I have been adjusting the bus cable to get timing set. Now the timming at full draw is on, but at reat the bottom cam timming mark is off the cable and the top mark is still dead on. 
Is there a way to advance the top cam without affecting the bottom cam? It looks like any adjustments to the control cable would afect both cams.


----------



## SEIowaArcher

I think I'm at the stage in the game with my shooting where I need to apply these techniques to tuning. 

I'm a bowhunter also and occasional 3D shooter, I practice everyday and have become pretty decent. I use the OT2 program to select the right spined arrow so I'm confident that my arrow fits my setup to minimize tuning with broadheads. I also do all of the work on my own bow, I have EZ Press press and what not. I've always just set my bow to specs, paper tuned, and gotten DECENT groups, nothing like what I've been reading above. My broadheads usually hit an inch low and to the left of my field points at all distances so for hunting season I always just adjust my sights for my broadheads and have had great success this way. BUT, I want more obviously and it would be nice to take it to the next level.

My question is, once I get my bare shafts and fletched arrows to fly the same out to 20yards after adjusting the yoke and buss cable, should my broadheads hit with my field points since I'm using the correctly spined arrow or will I still need to make some minor adjustments and do an additional broadhead tune? 

Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## SEIowaArcher

michael rankin said:


> I have a question on a pse x force. I started out with the cams in sync at rest (timming marks on cams are both centered on the cables) and everything else on the bow is set to factory specs. At this point the bottom cam was advanced quite a a bit at full draw. I have been adjusting the bus cable to get timing set. Now the timming at full draw is on, but at reat the bottom cam timming mark is off the cable and the top mark is still dead on.
> Is there a way to advance the top cam without affecting the bottom cam? It looks like any adjustments to the control cable would afect both cams.


Adjusting either cable will affect the other one in one way or another and affect cam timing. What I do with mine to get started is take the strings and cables off the bow and then measure them for factory specs, and then put back on the bow. You'll need to twist or untwist each cable until they both find themselves sitting in line with the cable.


----------



## WithoutWarning

nuts&bolts said:


> If your bow is not adjusted to fit your body (most cases too long),
> then the followthrough reaction for your release arm elbow
> will end up pulling the bowstring sideways...


So for a RH shooter pulling the string sideways, the bare shafts will impact L or R of the fetched group, generally ?
And of course opposite for a LH shooter, yes ?


----------



## spswihart

For reference, I think I barely shoot well enough to be trying this, but I finished bareshaft tuning Friday evening. See messages 111 & 113 & 116 above. Can't get pics to post from my phone Happy with the results, but have some questions. 
1. I bare shaft tuned with X-cutters. Should I have used appropriate spined arrows?
2. If I mess with the centershot location of the rest, will it mess up the bare shaft tune? 
3. Is there a preferred order to tuning a bow, ie


----------



## spswihart

Such as Walk back or French, bare shaft, then what?


----------



## ontarget7

Spent some time shooting long range yesterday with the 7595's and the Velocity 300's. I was completely sold on shooting the 300's because they bareshaft tuned great. However after going back and forth shooting long range groups with both 7595's and 300's, the 7595's came out on top. Go figure when they don't even come close to bareshaft tuning as well as the 300's. Just figured I would share this with you even thou it makes no sense to me. By the way before I started I had both set ups shooting broadheads and field points the same out to 80 yards. Maybe the weight difference between the 2 

Shane


----------



## nimrod1034

Ok let's say you shoot 4 inch feathers. 

When you are bareshaft tuning they are hitting together at 10, 15, 20 yards 

Then at 30 yards the fletched arrows are little bit lower then the bare shafts But still no lateral nock travel. 

Could that be caused from the drag and weight on the fletched arrows that it slows them down to hit a bit lower?


----------



## ontarget7

nimrod1034 said:


> Ok let's say you shoot 4 inch feathers.
> 
> When you are bareshaft tuning they are hitting together at 10, 15, 20 yards
> 
> Then at 30 yards the fletched arrows are little bit lower then the bare shafts But still no lateral nock travel.
> 
> Could that be caused from the drag and weight on the fletched arrows that it slows them down to hit a bit lower?


Yes


----------



## sixgunluv

I was shooting goood groups out to 80yds with me 05 Diamond Victory SC. So after reading this thread reminded myself to make sure broadheads were close as my main concern is hunting..... they weren't...probably 8 inches apart. So I decided I may as well start with bare shaft....well let's start at 30 since i was shooting great at 80. Bad idea, bare shaft went 3ft high! and over the target...gone, same after 3 bare shafts.... where do i start? I've already tried shortening the control cable 4 turns and still sent another shaft over the target???


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> I was shooting goood groups out to 80yds with me 05 Diamond Victory SC. So after reading this thread reminded myself to make sure broadheads were close as my main concern is hunting..... they weren't...probably 8 inches apart. So I decided I may as well start with bare shaft....well let's start at 30 since i was shooting great at 80. Bad idea, bare shaft went 3ft high! and over the target...gone, same after 3 bare shafts.... where do i start? I've already tried shortening the control cable 4 turns and still sent another shaft over the target???


START at 5 yards.
Fire a fletch arrow and at least 2 bareshafts.

Fletching provides a HUGE amount of steering correction.

If the bareshafts are hitting together,
then your shooting technique is consistent enough to bareshaft tune.

At 5 yards, the bareshafts should be grouping tightly.

At 5 yards,
if the bareshafts MISS to the right of the fletched arrow...

ADD a half twist to the left side yoke cable leg (shorten)
and
REMOVE a half twist on the right side yoke cable leg.

REPEAT until the 
bareshaft point of impact is directly above the fletched arrow (12-o'clock high)
or
bareshaft point of impact is directly below the fletched arrow (6-o'clock low).


*So,
at 5 yards,
if your bareshaft misses HIGH,
LENGTHEN (remove twists) the buss cable,
on your single cam bow.*


When you have the bareshaft and fletched arrow smacking together....

at 5 yards,
try again at 10 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> I've already tried *shortening the control cable *4 turns and still sent another shaft over the target???


If you have a single cam bow,
you only have a buss cable and a string.

Soooo,
bareshaft missing HIGH on a single cam bow,
you LENGTHEN the buss cable (untwist).


----------



## sixgunluv

nuts&bolts said:


> If you have a single cam bow,
> you only have a buss cable and a string.
> 
> Soooo,
> bareshaft missing HIGH on a single cam bow,
> you LENGTHEN the buss cable (untwist).


 Yes, all my bows are single cam. 
I returned the buss cable back the 4 twists. I had gone the wrong way evidently. Seems i'm getting a little fletching contact on the rest as the felt on the launcher arm is getting torn. I was going to raise the nocking point.....good idea? Would this make the unfletched shafts come down? or should I just start with the untwisting of the buss cable? 3ft high seems like alot to get out of the buss cable at 30yds? The bare shafts were obviously porpoising up and down pretty bad. Plan to find out in the morning....


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> Yes, all my bows are single cam.
> I returned the buss cable back the 4 twists. I had gone the wrong way evidently. Seems i'm getting a little fletching contact on the rest as the felt on the launcher arm is getting torn. I was going to raise the nocking point.....good idea? Would this make the unfletched shafts come down? or should I just start with the untwisting of the buss cable? 3ft high seems like alot to get out of the buss cable at 30yds? The bare shafts were obviously porpoising up and down pretty bad. Plan to find out in the morning....


1) fix the fletching contact
2) if this is a fall away arrow rest, fix the fall away arrow rest timing (adjust cord length)

3) arrow should be at 90 degrees to the bowstring, with the riser vertical and the arrow horizontal, for a fall away arrow rest

4) arrow rest elevation should be set so that the arrow rest centerline is at the same height as the arrow rest holes centerline

5) do whatever you need to do to get rid of fletching contact

6) check sight 2nd and 3rd axis

7) shoot groups with fletched arrows at 60 yards, and confirm that the arrow group is CENTERED around the bullseye...adjust arrow rest center shot position

8) AFTER you are sure that the arrow rest centershot position is solid at 20 yards and 60 yards...
....AFTER you have zero fletching contact
....AFTER you have confirmed 2nd axis settings on your sight
....AFTER you have confirmed 3rd axis settings on your sight
....AFTER you have confirmed that your arrows are the correct stiffness
....AFTER you are sure that your bow DL setting fits you (solid groups at 20 yards, 40 yards and 60 yards)....

9) fire a fletched arrow and at LEAST 2 bareshafts at 5 yards...
....we are trying to fix LATERAL nock travel, so we are only focusing on LEFT-RIGHT misses
....if your bareshafts are hitting together at 5 yards,
....both bareshafts MUST be slapping together at 5 yards, if you are trying bareshaft tuning
....if bareshafts are MISSING to the right of the fletched arrow...

...SHORTEN the left side yoke cable (add a half twist)
...LENGTHEN the right side yoke cable (remove a half twist)

10) AFTER you get zero left-right misses....bareshaft and fletched arrows are hitting directly above/below each other
.....with a single cam, if the bareshaft is hitting HIGH
.....try LENGTHENING the buss cable
.....to correct VERTICAL NOCK TRAVEL (high-low misses).

11) when you are getting the TWO bareshafts and fletched shaft hitting together at 5 yards...

12) proceed to 10 yards
.....and repeat all the same steps

13) work you way up to 20 yards
.....getting TWO bareshafts and a group of fletched arrows to smack together at 20 yards,
.....requires an EXPERT level shooter

*14) getting TWO bareshafts and a group of fletched arrows to smack together at 30 yards,
......requires a WORLD CLASS shooter....not everyone can do this
......this is why I usually recommend bareshaft tuning at 20 yards.*


PS: I have seen FLETCHED arrows hit the 9/10 ring on a Vegas target face
and
the bareshaft miss 3 FEET AWAY.

Vanes, have an amazing amount of steering correction.


----------



## sixgunluv

Ok...it is a fallaway( Trophy Taker)...so i'll start there..Thank You. Will start with arrow nock level and in line with the holes.

Not worried about 3rd axis on this bow as it has a cheap slider with 3rd..but I do want to tune it nonetheless for bare shaft and broadheads. Would a walkback check be in order with #7 on your list?


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> Ok...it is a fallaway( Trophy Taker)...so i'll start there..Thank You. Will start with arrow nock level and in line with the holes.
> 
> Not worried about 3rd axis on this bow as it has a cheap slider with 3rd..but I do want to tune it nonetheless for bare shaft and broadheads. Would a walkback check be in order with #7 on your list?


MODIFIED French Tuning is much faster.

1) vertical line on a piece of paper

2) pin it to a target where the center of target is chest high...collar bone height

3) fire a single field point at the vertical line from 36-inches..yes, just 3 feet away

4) we want the arrow hole perfectly centered around the vertical line...tweak sight pins windage



















5) once you have sight pins windage dialed in...

6) goto 60 yards, and shoot groups
....tweak the arrow rest centershot position to get the 60 yard group CENTERED on the bullseye

7) go back to the target with the vertical line...shoot a single field point arrow at 3 feet away
....tweak sight pins windage...super fine adjustment to get it perfect

8) goto 60 yards, and shoot groups
....tweak the arrow rest centershot position to get the 60 yard group CENTERED on the bullseye


now,
bareshaft tune at 5 yards,

adjust yoke cable legs for lateral nock travel
adjust buss cable for vertical nock travel issues


repeat at 10 yards...

you get the idea.


----------



## sixgunluv

> Ok...it is a fallaway( Trophy Taker)...so i'll start there..Thank You. Will start with arrow nock level and in line with the holes.


Arrow is now perfectly square off the rest and nock and parallel to the holes. Went ahead and took 4 twists out of the buss cable. Will see what happens tomorrow. Took an ATA measurement and it is now in perfect spec at 34.5 with the 4 twists taken out.


----------



## Moparmatty

:moviecorn:


----------



## jodipuma

marker for refernce


----------



## DBLlungIT

X2 On that.


nuts&bolts said:


> VERY NICE.
> 
> Excellent job.


----------



## Windrover

suscribed:moviecorn


----------



## jimmyk

Great thread. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## sixgunluv

sixgunluv said:


> Arrow is now perfectly square off the rest and nock and parallel to the holes. Went ahead and took 4 twists out of the buss cable. Will see what happens tomorrow. Took an ATA measurement and it is now in perfect spec at 34.5 with the 4 twists taken out.


This morning is here..... the 4 untwists of the buss cable did it...  now my bare shafts are suddenly 2in high at 30yds from my fletched arrows. One more twist should do it. *Thanks So Much!!!*


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> This morning is here..... the 4 untwists of the buss cable did it...  now my bare shafts are suddenly 2in high at 30yds from my fletched arrows. One more twist should do it. *Thanks So Much!!!*


2-INCHES high at 30 yards,
with a bareshaft
is EXTREMELY good shooting.

So,
you DO know that shooting a bareshaft
is a HUGE test of form/shooting technique.

So,
you have gone from bareshafts missing 3 FEET high at 30 yards (36-inches high)
to
a bareshaft only missing 2-inches high.

If your release arm elbow is a skosh low,
the bareshaft will fly a little high, cuz of your followthrough motion on the release arm.

I would call it VERY good,
shooting technique-wise...

and

bowtuning wise.


Your 60 yard FLETCHED groups should be much much tighter, now.


But wait!

I thought......

well, you know.


----------



## Mooreski

Marked


----------



## sixgunluv

nuts&bolts said:


> I would call it VERY good,
> shooting technique-wise...
> 
> and
> 
> bowtuning wise.
> 
> 
> Your 60 yard FLETCHED groups should be much much tighter, now.


Nope....my form is excellent and I wasn't done until i made them touch consistently  That's why I gave it 4 untwists and went straight to 30yds. Afterward I did have to subtract some twists from the left cable leg and add several twists to the right buss cable leg to move the bare shaft to the right....... bare and fletched smack together now at 30 yards consistently. *Thanks again* as I have never tuned using the buss cable, I guess the shop I go to always got it close when I bought a new string, but now i'm installing my own strings. In this case the bow was used when I bought it and obviously out of tune.......... bare and fletched touching now at 30yds...i'm calling it good. Tomorrow..broadhead and walkback tuning then i'll be ready to sight in and set yardage on my cheap slider.

Hard to believe I was putting 3 arrows in a group the size of your fist at 80 yards but a bare shaft went 2-3ft high at 30 when I started.


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> Nope....my form is excellent and I wasn't done until i made them touch consistently  That's why I gave it 4 untwists and went straight to 30yds. Afterward I did have to subtract some twists from the left cable leg and add several twists to the right buss cable leg to move the bare shaft to the right....... bare and fletched smack together now at 30 yards. Thanks again as I have never tuned using the buss cable, I guess the shop I go to always got it close when I bought a new string, but now i'm installing my own strings. In this case the bow was used when I bought it and obviously out of tune.......... bare and fletched touching consistenly now at 30yds...i'm calling it good. Tomorrow..broadhead and wlakback tuning then i'll be ready to sight in and set yardage on my cheap slider.


Slapping at 30 yards (bareshaft and fletched) is EXPERT level shooting.

VERY nice.

Let us know how you do,
when you broadhead tune.

Please take photos,
so I can add to my collection.


----------



## bowhuntermitch

Re-tuned my bow tonight after seeing I was not able to shoot my tightest groups. After figuring out my arrows were acting too stiff, I threw on heavier tips and everything got closer to each other. I also ended up taking 1 full twist out of my left yoke.

Up and down is now PERFECT.

Shooting at 20 yards I tuned untill my bare shaft, broadhead, and fletched arrows all hit within a three inch circle. Broad-head was consistent to the left of the three inch circle, fletched arrow in the middle, and the bare shaft on the right side of the three inch circle.

Moved backed to 30 yards, and got frustrated. Broadhead hit 4" Left, fletched arrows were stacked on top of each other in the middle, and the bare shaft was about 5" right. I shot about 6 groups, thinking it was me. It fell into place like this every time. 

Doesn't this seem contradicting to you guys? I figured if anything the bare shaft and the broadhead would hit together.... not complete opposites.

All-in-all I'm happy, as my fletched arrows groups are tighter, and consistent. BUT- me being a perfectionist want everything hitting together @ 30 yards.

Where to start....


----------



## ontarget7

bowhuntermitch said:


> Re-tuned my bow tonight after seeing I was not able to shoot my tightest groups. After figuring out my arrows were acting too stiff, I threw on heavier tips and everything got closer to each other. I also ended up taking 1 full twist out of my left yoke.
> 
> Up and down is now PERFECT.
> 
> Shooting at 20 yards I tuned untill my bare shaft, broadhead, and fletched arrows all hit within a three inch circle. Broad-head was consistent to the left of the three inch circle, fletched arrow in the middle, and the bare shaft on the right side of the three inch circle.
> 
> Moved backed to 30 yards, and got frustrated. Broadhead hit 4" Left, fletched arrows were stacked on top of each other in the middle, and the bare shaft was about 5" right. I shot about 6 groups, thinking it was me. It fell into place like this every time.
> 
> Doesn't this seem contradicting to you guys? I figured if anything the bare shaft and the broadhead would hit together.... not complete opposites.
> 
> All-in-all I'm happy, as my fletched arrows groups are tighter, and consistent. BUT- me being a perfectionist want everything hitting together @ 30 yards.
> 
> Where to start....


What are your arrow and bow specs ?


----------



## nuts&bolts

bowhuntermitch said:


> Re-tuned my bow tonight after seeing I was not able to shoot my tightest groups. After figuring out my arrows were acting too stiff, I threw on heavier tips and everything got closer to each other. I also ended up taking 1 full twist out of my left yoke.
> 
> Up and down is now PERFECT.
> 
> Shooting at 20 yards I tuned untill my bare shaft, broadhead, and fletched arrows all hit within a three inch circle. Broad-head was consistent to the left of the three inch circle, fletched arrow in the middle, and the bare shaft on the right side of the three inch circle.
> 
> Moved backed to 30 yards, and got frustrated. Broadhead hit 4" Left, fletched arrows were stacked on top of each other in the middle, and the bare shaft was about 5" right. I shot about 6 groups, thinking it was me. It fell into place like this every time.
> 
> Doesn't this seem contradicting to you guys? I figured if anything the bare shaft and the broadhead would hit together.... not complete opposites.
> 
> All-in-all I'm happy, as my fletched arrows groups are tighter, and consistent. BUT- me being a perfectionist want everything hitting together @ 30 yards.
> 
> Where to start....


1) BARESHAFTS hitting to the right of the fletched arrows...
....SHORTEN THE LEFT YOKE CABLE LEG a half twist
....CONTINUE shortening the LEFT YOKE CABLE LEG a half twist at a time, until the bareshafts are hitting directly ABOVE (12-o'clock high) or directly BELOW (6-o'clock low)
....YOKE CABLE LEG tuning adjusts the HORIZONTAL NOCK TRAVEL...moves the BARESHAFT LEFT OR RIGHT

2) when you have the bareshafts and the fletched impacting directly ABOVE and BELOW each other...horizontal miss is FIXED for bareshafts with yoke cable leg tuning
....now, we gotta FIX the VERTICAL NOCK TRAVEL issue
....so IF the bareshaft is now hitting LOW....(it probably will)
....then, ADJUST THE CONTROL CABLE LONGER by a half twist, if you have a hybrid cam bow


....then, ADJUST THE BUSS CABLE SHORTER by a half twist, if you have a single cam bow.


3) LASTLY, for broadhead tuning, tweak the draw weight HIGHER or LOWER...to get better broadhead arrow flight.


----------



## andy6228

Great thread. Great info. Thanks!


----------



## sixgunluv

Nuts&Bolts

Plan to broadhead tune today. I realize that adjusting the poundage can bring broadheads and FP's together if the spine isn't perfect and have used draw weight adjustment in the past to bring broadheads and FP's together on a horizontal plane. I also know that slight adjustments to the rest can do the same as shown in the broadhead tuning thread......how do I know which one I need to utilize?  I'm shooting approx. 60lbs now but can go up to 64 comfortably..... right now broadheads are low right. Should I start with a walkback tune before utilizing poundage? I realize the up/down will need corrected with the nocking point.

Setup
2005 Diamond Victory SC 60-70lb
Blackhawk Vapor Pro 3000(45-60) @ 27in.
Draw Length 27in. 125gr Muzzy 3 blade heads


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> Nuts&Bolts
> 
> Plan to broadhead tune today. I realize that adjusting the poundage can bring broadheads and FP's together if the spine isn't perfect and have used draw weight adjustment in the past to bring broadheads and FP's together on a horizontal plane. I also know that slight adjustments to the rest can do the same as shown in the broadhead tuning thread......how do I know which one I need to utilize?  I'm shooting approx. 60lbs now but can go up to 64 comfortably..... right now broadheads are low right. Should I start with a walkback tune before utilizing poundage? I realize the up/down will need corrected with the nocking point.
> 
> Setup
> 2005 Diamond Victory SC 60-70lb
> Blackhawk Vapor Pro 3000(45-60) @ 27in.
> Draw Length 27in. 125gr Muzzy 3 blade heads


Best broadhead tuning thread by Doc.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=539460

Your 125 grain broadheads are too heavy,
even with the draw weight at 60 lbs.

*If you go down to 100 grain broadheads,
these should tune very nicely at 60 lbs of draw weight.*


----------



## knapper2

More great info. Gotta make this thread a sticky.


----------



## hardy86

marked for later


----------



## ontarget7

Alan I enjoy reading all your post however I am curious to your approach. I have always got my broadheads to fly with my field points even if my bareshaft tuning was not up to par. So in your opinion why bareshaft tune and then tweak for broadhead tune if need be ?


----------



## J-Daddy

ontarget7 said:


> Spent some time shooting long range yesterday with the 7595's and the Velocity 300's. I was completely sold on shooting the 300's because they bareshaft tuned great. However after going back and forth shooting long range groups with both 7595's and 300's, the 7595's came out on top. Go figure when they don't even come close to bareshaft tuning as well as the 300's. Just figured I would share this with you even thou it makes no sense to me. By the way before I started I had both set ups shooting broadheads and field points the same out to 80 yards. Maybe the weight difference between the 2
> 
> Shane


Shane have you tried adding any weight to the Velocity 300's????
I've got a couple dozen of the Velocity 300's fletched up for this year and they've been shooting pretty good for me...BUT I've got some 50gr GT insert weights that I'm gonna throw in them and try it out and see how they group..Without the weight I'm at like 380grs with them, with the weight I'm at 430grs...I know last year I did the same thing with the Harvest Time HT-2 which are light weight shafts and they did ok without the weight but with the added 50grs on the back of the inserts they flew awesome out of numerous bows for me. I'm gonna shoot some 3 arrow groups with the Velocity 300's, 3 without the weights & 3 with them and see how they perform...I'm almost willing to bet the heavier ones will produce tighter groups at long range.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ontarget7 said:


> Alan I enjoy reading all your post however I am curious to your approach. I have always got my broadheads to fly with my field points even if my bareshaft tuning was not up to par. So in your opinion why bareshaft tune and then tweak for broadhead tune if need be ?


Target and broadhead are really two different animals.

The bareshaft tuning will help cleanup lateral and vertical nock travel.
This really helps with the field point/target point arrows.

Once you throw blades up front (forward sails)
and vanes in back (rear sails)...

now,
you have a very different flying projectile.


Much more finicky flight,
for a fighter jet with forward canards (small forward wings).

Arrow spine is much more important to get correct, with broadhead flight.

Target arrows, with a well tuned shooter and a well tuned bow,
you can shoot 1 or 2 sizes too stiff (GoldTip fat target arrows) and do just fine.

Won't work with broadhead arrows, if you are shooting 1 or 2 sizes too stiff.

I think it will depend on the bow, as well.
If the bow is truly out of tune,
say a bareshaft is hitting 3 FEET to the right of the fletched arrows
at 20 yards...

then,
the bareshaft tuning will help a newer shooter quickly figure out
that something is not right.

Bareshaft tuning tells you about the equipment and the shooter.


For the more advanced shooter,
who has the bow well tuned anyways, using other methods,
and has the correct arrow spine (from experience)...

no real need to use bareshaft tuning,
if other methods are working well for you.


----------



## Efish1590

Are these the same instructions for a left handed bow? 

Thanks! Eric


----------



## nuts&bolts

Efish1590 said:


> Are these the same instructions for a left handed bow?
> 
> Thanks! Eric


Hello Eric:

RH handed bow, with the cable guard,
will have folks usually getting a high LEFT tear, when paper tuning...

which means,
when you shoot a bareshaft (preferably two bareshafts),
the fletched arrows will be in the bullseye, and the bareshafts will be off to the RIGHT, and hitting low.

So, the fix is to SHORTEN the left yoke cable leg, and LENGTHEN the right yoke cable leg...

a half twist at a time.



So,
for YOU,
with a left handed bow,
IF you are getting a high RIGHT hand paper tear,
which means,
when YOU have your fletched arrows in the bullseye,
and your two bareshafts are hitting low and LEFT of the fletched arrows...

shorten the RIGHT yoke cable leg,
and lengthen the LEFT yoke cable leg,
half twist at a time...

until you get the bareshafts hitting directly ABOVE or BELOW
the fletched arrows.


If you have the bareshaft hitting BELOW the fletched arrows,
and
if you have a hybrid cam bow (a) bowstring....(b) buss cable, which means it has 3 end loops...(c) control cable, which means it has 2 end loops
find the control cable, and make it a HALF TWIST LONGER.


if you have a single cam bow,
then,
find the buss cable, and make it a HALF TWIST SHORTER.


----------



## sixgunluv

> Your 125 grain broadheads are too heavy,
> even with the draw weight at 60 lbs.


*If you go down to 100 grain broadheads,
these should tune very nicely at 60 lbs of draw weight.*[/QUOTE]

Ok...don't really want to switch from 125gr heads.... how about my Easton 2215's or GT Expedition Htr's at 27in....?
Want to shoot 57-63lbs....27in. arrow withs 125gr tip.


----------



## nuts&bolts

sixgunluv said:


> *If you go down to 100 grain broadheads,
> these should tune very nicely at 60 lbs of draw weight.*


 Ok...don't really want to switch from 125gr heads.... how about my Easton 2215's or GT Expedition Htr's at 27in....?
Want to shoot 57-63lbs....27in. arrow withs 125gr tip.[/QUOTE]

If you can get down to 57 lbs,
then,
try the 125 grain broadheads
at 57 lb of draw weight..

fletch your arrows with the longest, heaviest vanes
and
use a full length arrow wrap, as well.


----------



## sixgunluv

> If you can get down to 57 lbs,
> then,
> try the 125 grain broadheads
> at 57 lb of draw weight..
> 
> fletch your arrows with the longest, heaviest vanes
> and
> use a full length arrow wrap, as well.


I can save the Blackhawk Vapors for my 57lb Black Ice.. they fly great out of it.... would the 2215's or GT Expedition Htr's 55-70 be better if I want to go 60-63 lbs with my Diamond Victory???


----------



## ontarget7

nuts&bolts said:


> Target and broadhead are really two different animals.
> 
> The bareshaft tuning will help cleanup lateral and vertical nock travel.
> This really helps with the field point/target point arrows.
> 
> Once you throw blades up front (forward sails)
> and vanes in back (rear sails)...
> 
> now,
> you have a very different flying projectile.
> 
> 
> Much more finicky flight,
> for a fighter jet with forward canards (small forward wings).
> 
> Arrow spine is much more important to get correct, with broadhead flight.
> 
> Target arrows, with a well tuned shooter and a well tuned bow,
> you can shoot 1 or 2 sizes too stiff (GoldTip fat target arrows) and do just fine.
> 
> Won't work with broadhead arrows, if you are shooting 1 or 2 sizes too stiff.
> 
> I think it will depend on the bow, as well.
> If the bow is truly out of tune,
> say a bareshaft is hitting 3 FEET to the right of the fletched arrows
> at 20 yards...
> 
> then,
> the bareshaft tuning will help a newer shooter quickly figure out
> that something is not right.
> 
> Bareshaft tuning tells you about the equipment and the shooter.
> 
> 
> For the more advanced shooter,
> who has the bow well tuned anyways, using other methods,
> and has the correct arrow spine (from experience)...
> 
> no real need to use bareshaft tuning,
> if other methods are working well for you.


Thanks for your input Alan. It looks like I am in good shape then, pretty much my same thoughts. 

I just follow a lot of your threads and try and learn any tidbit of information I can. The way you explains things is amazing and I feel you are priceless to AT :thumbs_up

Shane


----------



## ontarget7

J-Daddy said:


> Shane have you tried adding any weight to the Velocity 300's????
> I've got a couple dozen of the Velocity 300's fletched up for this year and they've been shooting pretty good for me...BUT I've got some 50gr GT insert weights that I'm gonna throw in them and try it out and see how they group..Without the weight I'm at like 380grs with them, with the weight I'm at 430grs...I know last year I did the same thing with the Harvest Time HT-2 which are light weight shafts and they did ok without the weight but with the added 50grs on the back of the inserts they flew awesome out of numerous bows for me. I'm gonna shoot some 3 arrow groups with the Velocity 300's, 3 without the weights & 3 with them and see how they perform...I'm almost willing to bet the heavier ones will produce tighter groups at long range.


You read my mind bro :thumbs_up.... I already have some made up with weights up front to try out when I get a chance.


----------



## DeanoZ

Hi Alan, a couple questions. First does bareshaft tuning thru paper from 6, 9, and 12' provide the same effect? I was taught to bareshaft thru paper until I achieved perfect bullet holes at each range. Second can you provide the order of tuning? Is it find centershot, then French tune, then group tune, bareshaft tunenand finally BH tune?


----------



## WithoutWarning

A question for Nuts & Bolts or anyone that may be able to help. 
I shot some bare shafts tonight along with fletched and like N&B says, the BS hit low and to the left. (I'm LH). 
So according to this thread I shortened the right cable leg and lengthen the left, 4 turns on each. 
However I didnt really see ANY improvement with the lateral nock travel of the bare shafts..., thoughts. ?
I can keep the BS with in 3/4" of each other or better at 20yrds so I know I am fairly consistent. 
I'll fix the BS hitting low issue once I move them to the right and are hitting with my fletched arrows.


----------



## J-Daddy

ontarget7 said:


> You read my mind bro :thumbs_up.... I already have some made up with weights up front to try out when I get a chance.


I shot some of mine tonight with the 50gr weights in them...I had 3 without and 3 with the weights. I'll give you 1 guess as to which 3 arrow group was tighter no matter what range I shot them at....


----------



## Dmarlatt

Hey Guys, this might have been answered already i have a bowtech insanity and it has a string cable and to youke cable and lets say i have a tear to the left which cable do i adjust the top or bottom or both at the same rate any answer will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dmarlatt said:


> Hey Guys, this might have been answered already i have a bowtech insanity and it has a string cable and to youke cable and lets say i have a tear to the left which cable do i adjust the top or bottom or both at the same rate any answer will be greatly appreciated.












Bowtech Insanity
Overdrive binary cam system

TOP YOKE cable system
BOTTOM YOKE cable system

LEFT PAPER TEAR

Twist the TOP LEFT YOKE CABLE 1/2 twist shorter
UN-TWIST the TOP RIGHT YOKE CABLE 1/2 twist LONGER

Fire through the paper tuner...

If you still have a left paper tear...

REPEAT the adjustments,
TOP LEFT YOKE CABLE another 1/2-twist SHORTER (ADD TWIST)

TOP RIGHT YOKE CABLE another 1/2 twist LONGER (REMOVE TWIST)


----------



## nuts&bolts

WithoutWarning said:


> A question for Nuts & Bolts or anyone that may be able to help.
> I shot some bare shafts tonight along with fletched and like N&B says, the BS hit low and to the left. (I'm LH).
> So according to this thread I shortened the right cable leg and lengthen the left, 4 turns on each.
> However I didnt really see ANY improvement with the lateral nock travel of the bare shafts..., thoughts. ?
> I can keep the BS with in 3/4" of each other or better at 20yrds so I know I am fairly consistent.
> I'll fix the BS hitting low issue once I move them to the right and are hitting with my fletched arrows.


What bow?
What draw length?
What draw weight?

Single cam? twin cam? hybrid cam?

Arrow specs? brand? model? spine? carbon tube length? point weight? inserts or glue in target points? brand, model and length of vanes?


----------



## nuts&bolts

DeanoZ said:


> Hi Alan, a couple questions. First does bareshaft tuning thru paper from 6, 9, and 12' provide the same effect? I was taught to bareshaft thru paper until I achieved perfect bullet holes at each range. Second can you provide the order of tuning? Is it find centershot, then French tune, then group tune, bareshaft tunenand finally BH tune?


Try both ways,
and see what happens.

1) shoot 60 yards and group tune your arrow rest...tweak the arrow rest HIGHER/LOWER...skosh LEFT/skosh RIGHT..until your arrow groups are CENTERED around the bullseye

2) fire fletched arrows at 20 yards

3) fire at least 2 bareshafts at 20 yards

4) if the bareshafts are impacting to the RIGHT of the fletched arrows....(top left yoke cable leg 1/2 twist shorter.......top right yoke cable leg 1/2 twist LONGER)
....fire group of fletched arrows and at least 2 bareshafts.....(top left yoke cable leg..1 full twist shorter.....top right yoke cable leg 1 full twist LONGER)
....fire group of fletched arrows and at least 2 bareshafts.....(top left yoke cable leg..2 full twists shorter.....top right yoke cable leg 2 full twists LONGER)
....fire group of fletched arrows and at least 2 bareshafts.....(top left yoke cable leg..4 full twists shorter.....top right yoke cable leg 4 full twists LONGER)
....fire group of fletched arrows and at least 2 bareshafts.....(top left yoke cable leg..8 full twists shorter.....top right yoke cable leg 8 full twists LONGER)

Each adjustment is DOUBLE the prior adjustment.
You WILL SEE a CORRECTION.

When the correction goes TOO FAR....bareshafts have now moved to the LEFT side of the fletched arrows...
obviously,
start undoing and go the other direction....LENGTHEN the left side yoke cable say 1/2 twist...SHORTEN the right side yoke cable twist 1/2 twist until you get the bareshaft hitting with the FLETCHED arrows..

so,
what will REALLY happen,
is that the bareshafts will hit DIRECTLY ABOVE ...... or DIRECTLY BELOW the fletched arrows.


TO FIX a vertical nock travel issue,
if the bareshafts are HITTING DIRECTLY BELOW the fletched arrows

if you have a control cable (cable with only 2 end loops),
then, LENGTHEN the control cable a half twist.


If you have a single cam bow,
and you only have a buss cable (YOKE cable...cable with 3 end loops),
then,
SHORTEN the buss cable.


----------



## ontarget7

J-Daddy said:


> I shot some of mine tonight with the 50gr weights in them...I had 3 without and 3 with the weights. I'll give you 1 guess as to which 3 arrow group was tighter no matter what range I shot them at....


I would also bet that the dynamic spine has a lot to do with that. GT arrow weight system is handy in that aspect from a tuning stand point


----------



## WithoutWarning

nuts&bolts said:


> What bow?
> What draw length?
> What draw weight?
> 
> Single cam? twin cam? hybrid cam?
> 
> Arrow specs? brand? model? spine? carbon tube length? point weight? inserts or glue in target points? brand, model and length of vanes?


Contender Elite (LH)
27" draw, 64-65lbs., SpiralX
Carbon Express Maximas 250 (.400"), 100gr. point, 25.25" carbon length, 332gr. total arrow weight
Flex-Fletch 1.75" vanes, Beiter G-nocks
Thx. much


----------



## nuts&bolts

WithoutWarning said:


> Contender Elite (LH)
> 27" draw, 64-65lbs., SpiralX
> Carbon Express Maximas 250 (.400"), 100gr. point, 25.25" carbon length, 332gr. total arrow weight
> Flex-Fletch 1.75" vanes, Beiter G-nocks
> Thx. much


I get 332 grains total weight,
assuming field points, with an insert,
and 125 grains field points, not 100 grain field points.


Your arrows are running STIFF,
so boost your draw weight closer to 70 lbs of draw weight.

LEFT HANDED BOW.

You said...

_A question for Nuts & Bolts or anyone that may be able to help. 
I shot some bare shafts tonight along with fletched and like N&B says, the BS hit low and to the left. (I'm LH). 
So according to this thread I shortened the right cable leg and lengthen the left, 4 turns on each. 
However I didnt really see ANY improvement with the lateral nock travel of the bare shafts..., thoughts. ?
I can keep the BS with in 3/4" of each other or better at 20yrds so I know I am fairly consistent. 
I'll fix the BS hitting low issue once I move them to the right and are hitting with my fletched arrows. _


So,
BareShaft hitting low and LEFT.

Double each correction.

Try 8 TWISTS shorter on the right buss cable leg (cable with 3 end loops and make adjustments on the top axle end loop).
Try 8 TWISTS longer on the left buss cable leg (cable with 3 end loops and make adjustments on the top axle end loop).

Fire a bareshaft or two, and a group of fletched at 20 yards.

Now,
try 16 TWISTS shorter on the right buss cable leg (cable with 3 end loops and make adjustments on the top axle end loop).
Try 16 TWISTS longer on the left buss cable leg (cable with 3 end loops and make adjustments on the top axle end loop).


Just did this same process with EmersonL last night,
at the Palomo Archery range in Palo Alto.

Worked just great.

He is a 540 level Field Archery shooter,
and
we got his fletched group size cut in HALF..

slapping fletched arrows and bareshafts at 20 yards.


----------



## WithoutWarning

Ok Thx. for the advice.

With the twists I have added now to the right leg, and removed from
the left leg,,,, I have a bit a cam lean.
Adding and removing more would worsen it, would that be excessive ?
I'm going to do it in order to tighten my groups but I'm curious..


----------



## nuts&bolts

WithoutWarning said:


> Ok Thx. for the advice.
> 
> With the twists I have added now to the right leg, and removed from
> the left leg,,,, I have a bit a cam lean.
> Adding and removing more would worsen it, would that be excessive ?
> I'm going to do it in order to tighten my groups but I'm curious..


Yes,
we are adjusting the cam lean,
to fine tune the RESULTS...

namely to get the bareshaft to hit with the fletched arrows.

Just went through this procedure with EmersonL last night,
in person,
at the Palomo Indoor range in Palo Alto.

He has a original Hoyt UltraTec with the single cam and a hybrid cam style rigging system..

First one I have ever seen. Round idler wheel. Buss cable, control cable and a bowstring.

Right yoke leg was twisted up way way way tight.
Left yoke leg was nearly ZERO twist.

Had to take a LOT of twists out of the right yoke cable leg, 
and only a few twists shorter in the left yoke cable leg.


Send EmersonL a pm message,
and he can tell you about what we did,
bareshaft tuning wise,
and group tuning wise.


----------



## Efish1590

Nuts & Bolts,

Left handed bow. 
29.5" draw 
58lb
2012 vantage elite plus w/ spirals 
Easton ACE 410 spine
29.25" carbon to carbon. 120 grain tips
3/4" taken off the back to stiffen it up. It was at 30" then had 0.75" cut off back. 
Tite flight shield 200s
Pin nocks
I have about a 1/2" tear high left through paper with fletched arrow at 6'
Bareshaft is 3" due right of fletched arrow at 20 yards. 
I have put 4 full twists into my left yoke. My right yoke has no twists in it. 
Where should I go from here?

Thank you for your time. 

Sincerely,

Eric


----------



## Efish1590

Think I got it. Took two more full twists on the left yoke took care of it. Now BS is directly below fletched arrow


----------



## Efish1590

Took half a twist outta the control cable and it made the BS go worse right than to begin with


----------



## bambieslayer

good stuff I've been an advocate of bareshaft tuning since my early days in the 80's


----------



## nuts&bolts

Efish1590 said:


> Took half a twist outta the control cable and it made the BS go worse right than to begin with


Hello Efish1590:

Fire a group of fletched arrows...(ignore the fliers...bad shots).

Fire at LEAST 2 bareshafts...(ignore the bad shots).

Firing a bareshaft is a test of bow tuning AND a test of shooting technique.

So,
do not rely on ONE bareshaft.

FIRE at least 2 bareshafts, and if BOTH bareshafts are slapping together, at 20 yards,
then you have solid, repeatable data.

So, if 2 BARESHAFTS are hitting off to the right,
shorten the left yoke cable leg
and
lengthen the right yoke cable leg.

START with half twist adjustments.

Then,
2nd round of adjustment,
make a FULL twist adjustment (each side).

Then,
3rd round of adjustment,
make TWO FULL TWISTS of an adjustment.

Then,
4th round of adjustment,
make FOUR FULL TWISTS of adjustment.

Then,
5th round of adjustment,
make EIGHT full twists of adjustment.


Each round of adjustment,
DOUBLE the adjustment,
and I guarantee you will see the correction.

When you adjust TOO FAR...bareshaft is hitting slightly to the LEFT of the fletched arrows...

go back in the other direction,
with HALF twist adjustments.


----------



## Efish1590

I can't take any more twists outta the right yoke. There is zero twist in it. I had a total of 9 full twists in the left. The cam lean was soooo bad that I thought it was going to derail at full draw. I am a 300-20x+ shooter on a 3 spot. The bareshafts are right next to each other. Both fletched arrows are next to each other. The bareshafts are kicking way hard left in the target. Tail is left of the tip. 

Any suggestions?
Thanks you again for your time. 

Sincerely,

Eric


----------



## nuts&bolts

Efish1590 said:


> I can't take any more twists outta the right yoke. There is zero twist in it. I had a total of 9 full twists in the left. The cam lean was soooo bad that I thought it was going to derail at full draw. I am a 300-20x+ shooter on a 3 spot. The bareshafts are right next to each other. Both fletched arrows are next to each other. The bareshafts are kicking way hard left in the target. Tail is left of the tip.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks you again for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric




Sooooo,
one time,
you got the bareshaft directly below the fletched group...

6-o'clock low...

and,
now you have the bareshaft hitting low and RIGHT?


Undo the last adjustment to the control cable,
and fire 3 bareshafts and see if all three group at 6-o'clock low or not.



If the cam LOOKS like it is about to derail....

we need to start back at the beginning.

1) shoot 60 yard groups with fletched arrows...group tune to lock down the arrow rest centershot...get the arrow groups CENTERED


----------



## spswihart

N&B
These are the pictures. You remember the first thing you did was walk me thru setting the cam starting rotation location on my DXT. This is the 3rd shot for the French tune.







Moved the rest, back and forth between 3 and 20 yds. This is the final 20 us group.







Then I checked the bare shaft tune at 20 yds. This is that group.








I think I am thru tinkering with the bow for a while, now I need to shoot.
Alan thanks for your help. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wolbear

nimrod1034 said:


> Ok let's say you shoot 4 inch feathers.
> 
> When you are bareshaft tuning they are hitting together at 10, 15, 20 yards
> 
> Then at 30 yards the fletched arrows are little bit lower then the bare shafts But still no lateral nock travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could that be caused from the drag and weight on the fletched arrows that it slows them down to hit a bit lower?



Yes is could be drag, but if you want them to get closer, try removing half a twist from the bottom of your control cable and see what happens, bet the bareshaft drops in closer to the fletched arrows.


----------



## stillrunnin

hoyt alphaburner any body got a pict how to serve yoke so i can adjust it i dont think i served in right spot


----------



## nuts&bolts

spswihart said:


> N&B
> These are the pictures. You remember the first thing you did was walk me thru setting the cam starting rotation location on my DXT. This is the 3rd shot for the French tune.
> View attachment 1355474
> 
> Moved the rest, back and forth between 3 and 20 yds. This is the final 20 us group.
> View attachment 1355479
> 
> Then I checked the bare shaft tune at 20 yds. This is that group.
> View attachment 1355483
> 
> 
> I think I am thru tinkering with the bow for a while, now I need to shoot.
> Alan thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



EXCELLENT shooting.


----------



## nuts&bolts

stillrunnin said:


> hoyt alphaburner any body got a pict how to serve yoke so i can adjust it i dont think i served in right spot


Find the two yoke cable legs,
and the yoke cable legs form a "V" shape.

Bottom of the "V",
basically bottom of the valley formed by the two legs,
serve the bottom 1/2-inch,
starting and the bottom of the "V"
and working your way up towards the end loops.

1/2 inch of serving works.
3/4-inch of serving works.


You just want to LOCK the two legs together.


----------



## stillrunnin

so you dont actualy serve the cable to the v you just tie the v together


----------



## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> Sooooo,
> one time,
> you got the bareshaft directly below the fletched group...
> 
> 6-o'clock low...
> 
> and,
> now you have the bareshaft hitting low and RIGHT?
> 
> 
> Undo the last adjustment to the control cable,
> and fire 3 bareshafts and see if all three group at 6-o'clock low or not.
> 
> 
> 
> If the cam LOOKS like it is about to derail....
> 
> we need to start back at the beginning.
> 
> 1) shoot 60 yard groups with fletched arrows...group tune to lock down the arrow rest centershot...get the arrow groups CENTERED


So,
Efish1590:

after you confirm that your centershot position for the arrow rest is SOLID..

2) then, try taking 1 full turn off both limb bolts (reduce draw weight) to stiffen up the arrow reaction...(dynamic spine reaction)

3) now, fire a fletched group of arrows (say 3-4 arrows) at 20 yards,

4) and fire at least 2 bareshafts at 20 yards...

5) low and right? 
....have a friend take a photo of you at full draw
...want to confirm that your release arm follow through is not influencing the bareshaft flight...since there is ZERO steering correction, gotta confirm that your shooting posture is not influencing things


----------



## Jeremy_h1

Great thread marking this one thanks


----------



## Efish1590

I tried taking a crank out of each limb. Bareshaft was farther right then before. I put crank back in. I want my bow around 58lbs. I shoot FITA. 
I wrote down every adjustment that I made when I started today. I have put my bow back to exactly where it was when I started. I will start over tomorrow. 
Steps to get started:
1) vertical is set for arrow. Center of arrow goes through center of burger button
2) set center of rest 3/4" from riser 
3) check centershot and adjust accordingly
4) perform French tune. Stand at 10 yards. Sight in. Shoot perfectly on center line. (I use edge of a target face) Shoot arrow. Pull arrow. Go to 20 yards. Shoot arrow. Mark. Pull arrow. Shoot. Mark. If both marks are right in line, go back to 30 yards shoot. If rest is off, move rest and then start process over. 
5) where would I go from here?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Efish1590 said:


> I tried taking a crank out of each limb. Bareshaft was farther right then before. I put crank back in. I want my bow around 58lbs. I shoot FITA.
> I wrote down every adjustment that I made when I started today. I have put my bow back to exactly where it was when I started. I will start over tomorrow.
> Steps to get started:
> 1) vertical is set for arrow. Center of arrow goes through center of burger button
> 2) set center of rest 3/4" from riser
> 3) check centershot and adjust accordingly
> 4) perform French tune. Stand at 10 yards. Sight in. Shoot perfectly on center line. (I use edge of a target face) Shoot arrow. Pull arrow. Go to 20 yards. Shoot arrow. Mark. Pull arrow. Shoot. Mark. If both marks are right in line, go back to 30 yards shoot. If rest is off, move rest and then start process over.
> 5) where would I go from here?


Your ACEs should be 400s, not 410s.

If so,
and you are shooting 120 grain glue in target points,...

55 lbs would have you "properly" spined.

Since you are shooting 58 lbs,
but you whacked off 3/4-inch on the BACK end to stiffen up the ACE 400s....
difficult to figure out if you are running weak or not.


1) put your bow into a draw board, and get back to ZERO cam lean, at full draw,
....so we can get to a good STARTING point.

2) still recommend shooting and tuning at 55 lbs, just to see if we can tighten up the fletched groups, at the end of the process.

3) MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING...

....vertical line on a piece of paper
....pin the piece of paper onto a target bag/block where the CENTER of the bag/block is at YOUR EXACT COLLAR BONE HEIGHT
....fire a single arrow at the piece of paper (vertical line) at a shooting distance of 36-inches...just 1 meter

THIS is the result we are looking for, at a shooting distance of 3 feet.










FRESH TARGET FACE.

Used a strip of duct tape and put the right hand edge of the duct tape, through the CENTER of the x-ring.










TWeak your sight/scope windage, left or right in TINY amounts,
until you can split the line with the arrow hole.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooo,
when you have the scope windage dialed in PERFECTLY,
you will split the line with the arrow hole.

HALF the arrow hole will be on the left
HALF the arrow hole will be on the right.

YOUR arrow hole will look just like this.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Now,
go to any longer distance,
say 30 yards,
and fire a group of arrows at the bullseye.

TWEAK the arrow rest,
to dial in centershot,
and get the arrows CENTERED around the 30 yard bullseye.











BASICALLY,
you are group tuning the arrow rest,
at 30 yards.


Now,
go back to 3 feet,
and fire a single arrow at the vertical line,
or in my case...


aim at the x-ring,
and try and hit the right hand edge of the strip of duct tape.










This is the result,
when the sight/scope windage setting is PERFECT.


Now,
go back to 30 yards,
and confirm that your arrows are hitting the bullseye,
and tweak the arrow rest centershot, if needed.


----------



## nuts&bolts

So,
we have confirmed that FLETCHED arrows....(with STEERING CORRECTION)
groups OK...

at 30 yards.


Now,
fire a bareshaft at 30 yards,
or 
fire a bareshaft a 20 yards,
along with fletched arrows.

IGNORE BAD SHOTS.

If you can't tell,
then shoot 2 or 3 bareshafts..

cuz, GOOD SHOTS will have the bareshafts grouping together,
and if you get 1 bareshaft that flys all by itself to a different point of impact..

ignore the flier bareshaft.


IF you are getting a LEFT paper tear,
when paper tuning...
then...

a bareshaft will HIT RIGHT of the fletched arrows.

TO CURE a left paper tear,
you DIAL IN LEFT CAM lean,
by shortening the left yoke cable leg.


If your right cable leg has ZERO adjustment, cuz it has ZERO TWISTS...

then,
make ALL of your adjustments in the LEFT yoke cable leg.


If you cannot see any difference in yoke cable leg tuning...

then,
I truly believe your arrows are WAY UNDERSPINED,
and you should try tuning at 55 lbs or 52 lbs of draw weight.


IF YOU MUST shoot at 58 lbs of draw weight, since you are a FITA SHOOTER...

then,
go find some 100 grain ACE points,
and start over.


----------



## Efish1590

I have 100 and 110 grain tips. I will try both sets if I cannot get this to work out. Thank you for your time. I appreciate your response.


----------



## Koorsboom

I had a disastrous FITA this past weekend and this thread was exactly what I was looking for ... don't know why I found it only now ...

My quetsion:



> if the bareshafts are NOT hitting together in the same spot, then the bareshafts are indicating that you need to work on bow hand position, relaxing the bow hand, posture, etc.


My bare shafts are not hitting together ... all form a vertical line about 7" from one end to the other about 4" to the left of the 20Y fletched group (all in the X on a 5-spot target). Each group has 4 arrows.

My bow is a Maitland Zeus set at 60# and 28.25" DL with Victory VAP arrows, .400" spine, 120gr point, 28" C to C weighing 348gr and travelling at about 259f/s. I have a Tilt Tamer on the bow as I thought that some other problems were caused by limb tip twist ... I can take it off if needed. I only have the bottom cable stop in place at the moment.

Before I start tuning I need to sort out my form problem first ... Please help.

And thanks once again for a brilliant thread ...


----------



## Koorsboom

After my post I went back to check something on my form ... the conditions during the shoot last weekend was very windy. One of our top archers advised me to pull into the wall VERY hard. He however shoots a Bowtech with limb stops where the Maitland has cable stops.

This time I just drew back into the wall until it felt solid and then shot the arrows ... these are my results:










The fletched group is definitely not my best, but its a group I can work off non the less (group on the right in case it doesn't show).

What do I need to read in the tail right bare shafts?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Koorsboom said:


> After my post I went back to check something on my form ... the conditions during the shoot last weekend was very windy. One of our top archers advised me to pull into the wall VERY hard. He however shoots a Bowtech with limb stops where the Maitland has cable stops.
> 
> This time I just drew back into the wall until it felt solid and then shot the arrows ... these are my results:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fletched group is definitely not my best, but its a group I can work off non the less (group on the right in case it doesn't show).
> 
> What do I need to read in the tail right bare shafts?



Hello Koorsboom:

So,
the baresahfts are hitting the target a little bit LEFT of the fletched arrows?

If so,
then,

we have a slight lateral (sideways) nock travel problem in the bow.


The tight grouping of the bareshafts tells me you are a VERY consistent shooter,
so we need to FIX the sideways nock travel issue in the bow.

1) find the yoke cable (cable with 3 end loops).

2) SHORTEN the right side yoke cable leg.
....TRY 1 complete twist SHORTER on the right yoke cable leg

3) SHOOT fletched and bareshafts again

4) SHORTEN the right side yoke cable leg.
...Second round of adjustment...double it, so twist 2 COMPLETE twists SHORTER on the right yoke cable leg.


Eventually, the bareshafts will switch sides,
meaning we have adjusted TOO FAR,
so,
start UN-TWISTING in half twist amounts...

until you have the bareshafts 
HITTING DIRECTLY ABOVE or
HITTING DIRECTLY BELOW the fletched arrows.

Sideways (lateral) nock travel is fixed.


Now,
we need to fix the VERTICAL nock travel issue.


5) Find the control cable (cable with only 2 end loops)
....goto the top end loop of the control cable on the TOP CAM


IF the bareshafts are hitting LOW, below the fletched arrows,
UNTWIST the control cable (1/2 twist longer).

Repeat as needed.

6) when you have the bareshafts hitting with the fletched arrows at 18 meters....

then,
we have FIXED the lateral (sideways) nock travel...

we have FIXED the vertical nock travel.

7) now, shoot 50 meters, and group tune the arrow rest position, for the tighest groups (small horizontal and vertical adjustments).

I just went through this process,
with EmersonL in person,
at the Palomo Indoor Range in Palo Alto, CA earlier this week.


We were able to get fletched and bareshafts slapping together, at 18 meters
(half his normal group size),
after group tuning, as the final step.


----------



## Koorsboom

Thanks N&B ... so I don't have to worry about the tail right of the bare shafts for now?


----------



## .BuckHunt.

So much good info in this thread!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Koorsboom said:


> Thanks N&B ... so I don't have to worry about the tail right of the bare shafts for now?


Just focus on the bareshaft point of impact
and
focus on the fletched arrows point of impact.

Get the point of impact for the fletched and bareshaft to hit in the same spot..

(we are fixing lateral and vertical nock travel).

When the lateral and vertical nock travel is fixed,
then,
the vanes are doing VERY VERY little steering correction.

NOW,
we group tune at 50 meters,
and fine tune arrow rest position (horizontal adjustments in tiny amounts to the arrow rest)...(vertical adjustments in tiny amounts to the arrow rest).

You should be able to cut down the group size at 50 meters,
VERY NOTICEABLY.


----------



## rajahmar

Started to read this thread on today. Thanks for excellent info, keep it running:thumbs_up 


I have Conquest Apex 8 (58#), DL 30" and 380 pro tours (28,5")

My bareshaft results are following ones (shot from 40 meters).









Same from different angle:









I really would like to get any hints, how to proceed tuning. I have got so much progress already and cannot wait to get my bow to full tune:tongue:


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> Started to read this thread on today. Thanks for excellent info, keep it running:thumbs_up
> 
> 
> I have Conquest Apex 8 (58#), DL 30" and 380 pro tours (28,5")
> 
> My bareshaft results are following ones (shot from 40 meters).
> 
> View attachment 1356120
> 
> 
> Same from different angle:
> 
> View attachment 1356125
> 
> 
> I really would like to get any hints, how to proceed tuning. I have got so much progress already and cannot wait to get my bow to full tune:tongue:



Hello rajahmar:

Most likely a RH bow.

I have the Apex 7.

The Apex 7 is EXTREMELY sensitive to cam starting rotation position.


So,
let's go after the lateral nock travel first.

Find the yoke cable legs on the top axle,
and press the bow.

TWIST the LEFT yoke cable leg shorter 1 FULL TWIST (add a twist).

UNTWIST the right yoke cable leg longer, 1 FULL TWIST (remove a twist).

Fire a group of fletched arrows.
Fire at least 2 bareshafts.

Repeat the experiment
and the corrections,
but,
double the corrections each time.

2nd round,
SHORTEN the left yoke cable leg 2 full twists (add twists).

LENGTHEN the right yoke cable leg 2 full twists (remove twists).

You should see results fairly quickly.

IF not,
then,
I suspect a spine problem (too weak of an arrow).

I don't think this will be the case for you.


Soon,
your bareshafts should be hitting LOW, directly under the fletched arrows.


Now,
SHORTEN the buss cable (find the bottom of the buss cable and ADD a twist)
to purposely change the cam starting rotation position.

Bareshafts should start to rise towards the fletched arrows.

Continue to add a half twist to the buss cable (at the bottom end loop)
until bareshafts are hitting with fletched.


When you have bareshaft and fletched hitting together at 40 meters....

then,
proceed to group tune the arrow rest,
by making tiny adjustments to the horizontal and vertical position of the arrow rest.

You should be able to make your BEST group size shrink even more.


----------



## ToddM

As an aside, do things like silencers, speed balls/nocks etc. typically change the "tune" of a bow if installed (assuming they are installed relatively evenly/same spacing)?


----------



## ToddM

If nothing seems to change a bareshaft result is it typically just the shooter causing the problem? 

For example my ultratec shoots bare shafts at 20 yards pretty much identical to the pics fita shooter koorsboom posted above. 2-3" left, with a right nock angle basically putting the nocks all together with the fletched shafts. I'm shooting 3-4 bareshafts at a time with very consistent impacts, groups of 2" or so, all similar height and angle.

I've tried going up/down in poundage 2-3 pounds each way (no change), center shot adjustments (both ways from my initial walk back a significant amount, moves the arrows around but the bare/fletched spacing stays the same), large harness adjustments both ways to the point of a lot of visible limb tip twist (I can make it worse adding to the left side, but even adding a lot of twists to the right side harness doesn't improve things past this point). I've tried different grip styles, more open, more closed, high/med/low" and I get almost identical results with all of them. Tried two different releases. 

One thing I have not messed with much is my draw length, but I think it's pretty close I may try adjusting my D loop in/out, and I may try removing my speed balls and silencers off the string too and see if that does anything perchance. I should have a couple other local guys shoot it as well see what it does for them as well.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> If nothing seems to change a bareshaft result is it typically just the shooter causing the problem?
> 
> For example my ultratec shoots bare shafts at 20 yards pretty much identical to the pics fita shooter koorsboom posted above. 2-3" left, with a right nock angle basically putting the nocks all together with the fletched shafts. I'm shooting 3-4 bareshafts at a time with very consistent impacts, groups of 2" or so, all similar height and angle.
> 
> I've tried going up/down in poundage 2-3 pounds each way (no change), center shot adjustments (both ways from my initial walk back a significant amount, moves the arrows around but the bare/fletched spacing stays the same), large harness adjustments both ways to the point of a lot of visible limb tip twist (I can make it worse adding to the left side, but even adding a lot of twists to the right side harness doesn't improve things past this point). I've tried different grip styles, more open, more closed, high/med/low" and I get almost identical results with all of them. Tried two different releases.
> 
> One thing I have not messed with much is my draw length, but I think it's pretty close I may try adjusting my D loop in/out, and I may try removing my speed balls and silencers off the string too and see if that does anything perchance. I should have a couple other local guys shoot it as well see what it does for them as well.


Hello ToddM:

I have had a handful of folks tell me that they are seeing no change
in lateral nock travel,
with major changes in yoke cable leg lengths.

Not sure what is happening.

At least for folks I'm working with in person,
I have not seen this yet. For the Hoyt Carbon Element, with roller guard,
a little left cam lean on top, cleaned up bareshaft impact,
and resulted in tighter groups (igorts).

For EmersonL and his UltraTec with Hoyt single cam,
we went through the same procedure, and tweaked the top cam to the left,
to cleanup a left tear (bareshaft hitting right and low of the fletched arrows).

Idler wheel on top, and an offset cable guard on the UltraTec.


Fleahop tried this procedure,
on a ProElite with Spirals,
and he could not get this to work.


So,
not sure why it works really well for some folks (yoke cable leg tweaking)
and why it does not work for some folks.


Only thing I can think of,
is that the followthrough motion on the release arm,
CAN have an effect on the sideways nock travel.

VANES have a tremendous amount of steering correction power.

So,
a bareshaft has absolutely ZERO steering correction power.

If yoke cable leg tuning is not working for you,
then...

just work on your usual tuning methods,
and group tune to the best of your ability.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> As an aside, do things like silencers, speed balls/nocks etc. typically change the "tune" of a bow if installed (assuming they are installed relatively evenly/same spacing)?


speed nocks, speed balls, finger spacers (rubber cushions) positioned on the string,
say 2-inches-ish from the cam,
CAN provide a few more fps, if you have the optimum position and the correct amount of weight...

a slingshot effect.


----------



## wapitibowman

Hey N&B -

So how do you bareshaft tune a binary cam bow? We can't tweak a yoke to correct for cam lean. Just curious. Thanks.

Wapitibowman


----------



## Alpha Burnt

I would like to know more on fixing vertical mistakes (ie bareshaft low of field points with nock high) for Binary cam bows and Spiral X cams also. Most everything I read is on fixing horizontal. Is this best remedied with nock point or rest changes or are there half twist changes in timing that will affect this? Should you just creep tune the Spiral X and let it be?


----------



## Koorsboom

> Should you just creep tune


I would also like to find out how important this is ...


----------



## ToddM

On my hoyt's if I creep tune them, my bare shafts always have ended up vertically even with my fletched shafts with a 90 degree nock setting and the arrow height through the center of the rest hole (for a drop away). Since they both adjust the same cable (just with different testing method) they probably both arrive at very similar results. Whenever I've noticed my bare shafts not being inline vertical when I creep test the bow, it always shows it needs adjustment. So now I just do my creep testing and leave it at that, especially since what I really want is for my creep tuning to be the end product, so my arrows are hitting at the same heights with different wall pressures. 

I think a lot of these tuning methods are different ways to arrive at the same general point, I also think that if you struggle with one method, trying another might help. For example if twisting on the harness does not seem to help, perhaps try center shot adjustments or poundage adjustments. Sometimes a tiny center shot adjustment can make a huge impact. The same is true in reverse, if centershot adjustment doesn't seem to help try the harness. Bareshaft flight in general seems to have so many things effecting it (lateral and vertical nock travel, nock height, spine, center shot, etc. PLUS the shooter) that it's probably impossible for one method to be the best for all bows and shooters. 

Plus when it comes to the shooter, lets say you have some grip torque, but you've been shooting that way for 5 years, you will still have problems tuning out a bareshaft problem, but your bareshaft groups might be great, because that grip torque is perfectly ingrained and repeatable for you as the shooter. No amount of tuning on the bow will fix that.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Alpha Burnt said:


> I would like to know more on fixing vertical mistakes (ie bareshaft low of field points with nock high) for Binary cam bows and Spiral X cams also. Most everything I read is on fixing horizontal. Is this best remedied with nock point or rest changes or are there half twist changes in timing that will affect this? Should you just creep tune the Spiral X and let it be?


1) you can tweak tiller

or

2) you can tweak the control cable (untwist longer).


With fletched arrows, creep tuning is very helpful.

Firing a bareshaft,
is also trying to accomplish the same thing,
just a much more sensitive method (very unforgiving of bow tuning...very unforgiving of shooter technique variation).


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> On my hoyt's if I creep tune them, my bare shafts always have ended up vertically even with my fletched shafts with a 90 degree nock setting and the arrow height through the center of the rest hole (for a drop away). Since they both adjust the same cable (just with different testing method) they probably both arrive at very similar results. Whenever I've noticed my bare shafts not being inline vertical when I creep test the bow, it always shows it needs adjustment. So now I just do my creep testing and leave it at that, especially since what I really want is for my creep tuning to be the end product, so my arrows are hitting at the same heights with different wall pressures.
> 
> I think a lot of these tuning methods are different ways to arrive at the same general point, I also think that if you struggle with one method, trying another might help. For example if twisting on the harness does not seem to help, perhaps try center shot adjustments or poundage adjustments. Sometimes a tiny center shot adjustment can make a huge impact. The same is true in reverse, if centershot adjustment doesn't seem to help try the harness. Bareshaft flight in general seems to have so many things effecting it (lateral and vertical nock travel, nock height, spine, center shot, etc. PLUS the shooter) that it's probably impossible for one method to be the best for all bows and shooters.
> 
> Plus when it comes to the shooter, lets say you have some grip torque, but you've been shooting that way for 5 years, you will still have problems tuning out a bareshaft problem, but your bareshaft groups might be great, because that grip torque is perfectly ingrained and repeatable for you as the shooter. No amount of tuning on the bow will fix that.




Shooting bareshaft is just another way of trying to get to the same place...
which is the absolute tightest FLETCHED groups at whatever shooting distance you are training at.

Group tuning and creep tuning are standard methods..classics,
and work extremely well.


----------



## nuts&bolts

*BARESHAFTS and RELEASE FOREARM alignment...finally figured it out*

Hello folks:

I'm a bit slow.

Figured it out, I THINK.

I just realized something,
about the folks who tried the yoke cable leg tuning,
and could not get bareshafts to move left or right...

bareshafts kept impacting in the same spot.


Bareshafts have ZERO steering correction.

So,
think of the release side forearm like a LASER POINTER.

WHERE-EVER the release side forearm is pointed,
that is where the bareshaft is going to go.










IN this photo,
the shooter has his forearm pointed off to the right,
assuming that he intends to shoot straight ahead.

No amount of yoke cable leg tuning is going to change
that the bareshaft will ALWAYS hit off to the right of the fletched arrows, which fly straight head (vane steering correction).


Now,
this fella,
his alignment is much much better,
and the bareshaft will land much closer to the fletched arrow,
cuz the release side FOREARM.....is much much more in-line with the arrow alignment.











1) group tune your fletched arrows at long range, to confirm that arrows are CENTERED around the bullseye
....tweak the arrow rest centershot (horizontal adjustment)


2) try a bareshaft at 5 yards and a single fletched arrow
....if the bareshaft is hitting LEFT of the fletched arrow,
....try REMOVING 1 turn on both limb bolts
....this will INCREASE your Total Spread Distance (bow grip to the release side elbow tip)...and get your release side forearm in BETTER ALIGNMENT

3) try a bareshaft at 5 yards and a single fletched arrow
....if the bareshaft is hitting RIGHT of the fletched arrow,
....try ADDING 1 turn on both limb bolts
....this will DECREASE your Total Spread Distance (bow grip to the release side elbow tip)...and get your release side forearm in BETTER ALIGNMENT


4) Then, when you have your release arm alignment SOLID,
....proceed to 20 yards, and fire a group of fletched arrows
....fire at least 2 bareshafts and see how you do

5) NOW, if you are getting the bareshafts hitting RIGHT and LOW
....try the yoke cable leg tuning, where you shorten the left yoke cable leg and lengthen the right yoke cable leg lengths

6) When you get the bareshafts hitting directly UNDER the fletched arrows..
....try adjusting cam sync on a hybrid cam bow, and lengthen the control cable


----------



## wapitibowman

Maybe I missed your answer N&B. How is this done to a binary bow?


----------



## ToddM

Interesting, looking at the pictures, would stance/foot placement also affect this? It seems like the top picture the shooters rear foot is significantly to the left of his front foot, in an extreme closed stance. Where in the lower picture it appears his feet are probably very close to parallel front to back if not slightly open (hard to tell for sure without seeing their feet).


----------



## nuts&bolts

wapitibowman said:


> Maybe I missed your answer N&B. How is this done to a binary bow?



No yoke cables on a 2 track binary cam bow,
so,
not possible to adjust the yoke cables,
because there are no yoke cables.

So,
lateral nock travel on a binary cam bow is not EASILY adjustable.

You can try swapping a thick/thin cam spacer position,
IF,
the manufacturer used a thick cam spacer on one side
and used a thin spacer on the other side of the cam.

This will also change centershot and vane clearance,
so I don't recommend this procedure.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ToddM said:


> Interesting, looking at the pictures, would stance/foot placement also affect this? It seems like the top picture the shooters rear foot is significantly to the left of his front foot, in an extreme closed stance. Where in the lower picture it appears his feet are probably very close to parallel front to back if not slightly open (hard to tell for sure without seeing their feet).


Experiment with foot position (neutral, closed, open stance)
to adjust the alignment of the shoulders, while at full draw.

The alignment of the shoulders is what
affects the alignment of the release side forearm.

If yoke cable leg tuning has ZERO effect on moving the bareshaft point of impact..

a little left or a little right...

I suspect we have a forearm (release side) alignment issue.


----------



## Jhorne

nuts&bolts said:


> No yoke cables on a 2 track binary cam bow,
> so,
> not possible to adjust the yoke cables,
> because there are no yoke cables.
> 
> So,
> lateral nock travel on a binary cam bow is not EASILY adjustable.
> 
> You can try swapping a thick/thin cam spacer position,
> IF,
> the manufacturer used a thick cam spacer on one side
> and used a thin spacer on the other side of the cam.
> 
> This will also change centershot and vane clearance,
> so I don't recommend this procedure.


There are on the Overdrive Binaries N&B


----------



## nuts&bolts

Jhorne said:


> There are on the Overdrive Binaries N&B




Agreed,
the Overdrive has a yoke cable.

Very interesting system.


----------



## Jhorne

With the overdrive system you set the centershot right down the middle then yoke tune.


----------



## Garceau

Pulled my Asa bow out. Have not shot it much lately and figured id try the modified french tuning.









So at three feet i fired the first arrow. Thats the top hole, ysed a straight piece of cardboard.

To remain consistent i pulled arrow and backed up.

They seem to be inline pretty good.

Now to try a few bareshaft

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Garceau

This must go under the category "blind squirrel finds a nut"









Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Garceau

Ok....i must be doing something wrong.

I grabbed my hope set up for ibo hunter and ran three through









Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## stillrunnin

got my burner straight all arrows fletched and un fletched hitting together at ten and twenty at thirty they are hitting a lil high but iwas getting a lil tired so will try thirty again tomorrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Garceau said:


> Ok....i must be doing something wrong.
> 
> I grabbed my hope set up for ibo hunter and ran three through
> 
> View attachment 1356890
> 
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


Very nice!


----------



## nuts&bolts

stillrunnin said:


> got my burner straight all arrows fletched and un fletched hitting together at ten and twenty at thirty they are hitting a lil high but iwas getting a lil tired so will try thirty again tomorrow.


Picture, please.

That's some great shooting.


----------



## Garceau

I will say it is a little bit of a pucker factor firing Victory HV's at the same spot.....LOL

I think I cringed every shot.


----------



## Garceau

Alan - would it be fair to expect the non-fletched shaft to hit a bit high at 30? Looking at may 18 grains lighter.......


----------



## ToddM

Might not want to mess with a little high at 30 if it's right on at 10/20. I would guess that at some yardage (maybe not as early as 30 yards though?) since the bareshaft does not have the extra weight and drag of fletching it should start impacting higher than fletched shafts.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Garceau said:


> Alan - would it be fair to expect the non-fletched shaft to hit a bit high at 30? Looking at may 18 grains lighter.......


20 yards is more than enough.
Get the fletched and bare hitting together at 20 yards.

You have confirmed that you have ZERO lateral and vertical nock travel.


Now,
take fletched arrows
and group tune at 60 yards.

Small tiny tweaks to arrow rest centershot,
small tiny tweaks to arrow rest elevation,
to get the absolute tightest groups,
cuz...

you have eliminated steering correction issues with the vanes.

Now,
it is just finding the sweet spot for the arrow rest,
to get your BEST group sizes.


----------



## 57Loader

I finally got to try bareshaft tuning yesterday morning. Since I can't shoot at home and must drive 20 minutes to the range I attached my EZ Green press to a board so I can hook it to my tailgate with some clamps. Worked out great.

After Mod. French tuning I started with the bareshafts at 10 yards. They were 2 inches left. After 2 trips to the press, which was right next to the target, I got 2 fletched and 3 bareshafts all slapping together. Moved back to 20 and with 3 more trips the the press had all 5 arrows slapping together again. The bareshafts were consistantly to the left side of the group but the impact points were almost touching on every end.

I was going to try 30 yards but I ran into a problem that I didn't know how to fix. My left yoke is completely untwisted, there is 0 twist in the left side. The right side is twisted so many times that the loop is starting to take up the twists. I called it good at 20 because I didn't want to put anymore twists in the right side. It's amazing how much the cam leans at rest compared to how I had it on a draw board with the arrow parallel with the string trick.

After this I tried sighting in my new BG Ascent but was too tired to shoot a very good group at 90 yards. I'll go out a few afternoons this week and see how my groups look when I'm fresh.

Thank you for this thread.


----------



## nuts&bolts

57Loader said:


> I finally got to try bareshaft tuning yesterday morning. Since I can't shoot at home and must drive 20 minutes to the range I attached my EZ Green press to a board so I can hook it to my tailgate with some clamps. Worked out great.
> 
> After Mod. French tuning I started with the bareshafts at 10 yards. They were 2 inches left. After 2 trips to the press, which was right next to the target, I got 2 fletched and 3 bareshafts all slapping together. Moved back to 20 and with 3 more trips the the press had all 5 arrows slapping together again. The bareshafts were consistantly to the left side of the group but the impact points were almost touching on every end.
> 
> I was going to try 30 yards but I ran into a problem that I didn't know how to fix. My left yoke is completely untwisted, there is 0 twist in the left side. The right side is twisted so many times that the loop is starting to take up the twists. I called it good at 20 because I didn't want to put anymore twists in the right side. It's amazing how much the cam leans at rest compared to how I had it on a draw board with the arrow parallel with the string trick.
> 
> After this I tried sighting in my new BG Ascent but was too tired to shoot a very good group at 90 yards. I'll go out a few afternoons this week and see how my groups look when I'm fresh.
> 
> Thank you for this thread.



Some photos, next time, please.

Bareshaft at 20 yards is more than good enough.

Proceed to group tuning with fletched arrows
at you maximum comfortable distance.

Super tiny tweaks to the arrow rest (centershot and elevation) at 90 yards 
will get your arrow groups SUPER TIGHT,
since you have corrected the lateral and vertical nock travel.


----------



## AngelRa

Finished yoke/cable tuning my Hoyt bows! 

Then spent hours tuning a friends bow. Nothing was working, until I asked him to let me shoot... suddenly the ugly paper tear was gone. It was his bow hand grip.

Lesson learned, no changes = bow grip torque.

Interestingly, by looking at him I could not spot any mistakes in his form, release,...


----------



## rajahmar

*My Results*

This was my starting point:








After couple of days in the field I really can see progress. Exactly same distance, 40 meters (with 350 nano pros):








Lessons learned:

- there was a minor form problem in my release hand (thanks to N&B and those earlier posts, I managed to fix that with shorten d-loop).
- Apex really seems to be sensitive with Cam position, I finally untwist it two rounds.

Thanks a lot N&B, do you have fan club somewhere where I could join? :wink: This is superb thread.


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> This was my starting point:
> View attachment 1358355
> 
> 
> After couple of days in the field I really can see progress. Exactly same distance, 40 meters (with 350 nano pros):
> View attachment 1358360
> 
> 
> Lessons learned:
> 
> - there was a minor form problem in my release hand (thanks to N&B and those earlier posts, I managed to fix that with shorten d-loop).
> - Apex really seems to be sensitive with Cam position, I finally untwist it two rounds.
> 
> Thanks a lot N&B, do you have fan club somewhere where I could join? :wink: This is superb thread.




EXCELLENT shooting, rajahmar.
Well done.

Bareshaft shooting, and yoke cable tuning,
are TOOLS to help you get to the end result...

better arrow groups at long range.

AMAZING groups at 40 meters....(44 yards).


----------



## AngelRa

Finally got a chance to shoot at the range my Vantage Elite Plus with stiff ACC shafts.

Here is the 1st bareshaft shot at 20 yards:








Then, shot 2 bare and 2 fletched:








At 30 yards shot the bare 1st, then one of the fletched broke the nock of the bare shaft:








Finally, both shafts were shot at the center space between the targets, the top one was shot with the grip to the left, the second to the right. This was to experiment and see how much the shaft will offset because of grip variation:








I found that bare shaft @ 20 yards correlate with bare shaft paper tune perfectly.

40 yards did not tune so far, but I think is because of the delicate balance of the bow grip. Any little grip variation and the shaft flies off to the side.

I heard of some pros shooting bare shafts @ 77 yards! Is there a way to make the bow or grip or form more forgiving so I can shoot bare shaft at long distances?


----------



## nuts&bolts

AngelRa said:


> Finally got a chance to shoot at the range my Vantage Elite Plus with stiff ACC shafts.
> 
> Here is the 1st bareshaft shot at 20 yards:
> View attachment 1361578
> 
> 
> Then, shot 2 bare and 2 fletched:
> View attachment 1361582
> 
> 
> At 30 yards shot the bare 1st, then one of the fletched broke the nock of the bare shaft:
> View attachment 1361584
> 
> 
> Finally, both shafts were shot at the center space between the targets, the top one was shot with the grip to the left, the second to the right. This was to experiment and see how much the shaft will offset because of grip variation:
> View attachment 1361588
> 
> 
> I found that bare shaft @ 20 yards correlate with bare shaft paper tune perfectly.
> 
> 40 yards did not tune so far, but I think is because of the delicate balance of the bow grip. Any little grip variation and the shaft flies off to the side.
> 
> I heard of some pros shooting bare shafts @ 77 yards! Is there a way to make the bow or grip or form more forgiving so I can shoot bare shaft at long distances?




EXCELLENT SHOOTING.

Bareshaft shooting at 20 yards,
is a test of the shooter's form
and
the bow tuning adjustments.

I recommend shooting at least 2 bareshafts,
so that the shooter can EASILY see if the shooter is consistent or not.


So,
as the distance increases....

the bareshafts are getting MUCH more finicky about shooter form/technique,
and much less about bow tuning adjustments.

Let's say that the bareshafts MAGNIFY the form problems by 10 TIMES,
cuz the vanes have SOOO much steering correction power.


So,
since you can fire bareshafts well at 30 yards,
then,
practice at 40 yards,
to fine tune your shooting technique CONSISTENCY.

The ONLY goal is to get 2 or more bareshafts to hit at the same spot...at 40 yards.

Work your way up say 10 yards longer,
each month.

When you get up to 60 yards,
and you can get 2 BARESHAFTS in a tight GROUP
then,
you are doing really well.

NOTE: the 60 yard bareshafts may or may not hit with fletched arrows...I would not worry about it.

You are looking to GROUP bareshafts,
to fine tune your shooting technique, only.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Yes,
bow hand tension (or lack of tension) is important.

Yes,
bow hand position, is SUPREMELY important.

Yes,
release side forearm alignment PERFECTLY behind the arrow, and in line behind the arrow,
is CRAZY important.


If you are PULL ONLY shooter,
then,
your body MUST be in balance...

no jerking the upper body out of balance...

any and ALL followthrough motions (bow hand and release elbow)
MUST BE IN LINE 
bow hand reacting FORWARDS
release arm reacting BACKWARDS.

If you are the EXPLOSIVE followthrough type of shooter,
then,
this type of shooter will have great difficulty getting bareshafts to
group at long range distances.


Looking at YOUR groups,
I think you will begin bareshaft shooting technique training at 60 yards,
very soon.


----------



## Hit-em

Alan,
Have you ever tried the bare shaft tune with bare shafts that weigh the same as your fletched arrows ?
I've thought about taking golf lead tape & attach pieces to the nock end until I get the same weight as my fletched arrows.
How do you think this would work in the tuning process ?
I would think this would give me better results since the weight & spine would be more in line with each arrow ...


----------



## nuts&bolts

Hit-em said:


> Alan,
> Have you ever tried the bare shaft tune with bare shafts that weigh the same as your fletched arrows ?
> I've thought about taking golf lead tape & attach pieces to the nock end until I get the same weight as my fletched arrows.
> How do you think this would work in the tuning process ?
> I would think this would give me better results since the weight & spine would be more in line with each arrow ...


Haven't done it.

You could try lead tape,
or you could just use duct tape,
the same width as your vane base.

If you are using FlexFletch 187s,
then,
cut a strip of duct tape 1.87 inches wide.

If you use Blazers,
then,
a strip of duct tape 2-inches wide.

With a grain scale,
you know the total weight of your arrow.

So,
use a couple of wraps of duct tape
and get your bareshaft overweight.

Then,
peel off some duct tape
and get your bareshaft to spec for your arrow weight.

I'm too lazy to go through this step.

I use the bareshafts to dial in the yoke cable legs,
and
to dial in the control cable for hybrid cams.

Then,
once the yoke cable legs are dialed in,
and
the cam sync is dialed in...

I proceed to group tuning with fletched arrows,
and when I work with folks in person at 20 yards,
we can usually see group sizes cut in half....even for the super advanced shooters.


----------



## a/c guy

Alan,
What would you look for if a righthanded shooter gets bareshafts hitting right nomatter what they try? About 3" is the closest I can get @ 20 yards. It's the same with all three ( only two have yokes, the other is binary ) of my bows, so it's got to be me. The one thing I'm sure of is I'm not gripping the bow.


----------



## a/c guy

I should learn to read first...... just read post #244.


----------



## cp-er

I am having a little trouble understanding the ajusting of the buss cable so to change the positon of the cam at full draw? I understood that changing the length of the buss cable only changed the starting position of the cam and therefore the draw length. It as I understand would not change where the cam would set at full draw. when the bow reaches full draw it is stopped by the cable reaching the bootom of the module. just asking.......great thread...


----------



## wolbear

cp-er said:


> I am having a little trouble understanding the ajusting of the buss cable so to change the positon of the cam at full draw? I understood that changing the length of the buss cable only changed the starting position of the cam and therefore the draw length. It as I understand would not change where the cam would set at full draw. when the bow reaches full draw it is stopped by the cable reaching the bootom of the module. just asking.......great thread...




Actually, when you add or subtract twists to the cable of a one cam bow, you either lengthen or shorten the total rotation of the cam. If you add a twist you will either slightly slow or advance your cam timing. this effects the timing thru out the draw cycle. At full draw the cam will be slightly slowed or advanced which ever way you altered the cable.


----------



## nuts&bolts

cp-er said:


> I am having a little trouble understanding the ajusting of the buss cable so to change the positon of the cam at full draw? I understood that changing the length of the buss cable only changed the starting position of the cam and therefore the draw length. It as I understand would not change where the cam would set at full draw. when the bow reaches full draw it is stopped by the cable reaching the bootom of the module. just asking.......great thread...


Hello cp-er:

When you add a twist to the buss cable,
the ATA of the bow shrinks a TINY bit.

The bowstring is the same length.

Well,
when the axles come closer and closer and closer and closer and closer together..

if I added enough twists to the buss cable so that a 34-inch ATA bow,
became a 24-inch ATA bow...

imagine what happens to the top and bottom cams?

Since the bowstring is unchanged in length,
the cams MUST rotate away from the riser.


When you pull a bowstring,
the cams also rotate AWAY from the riser.

Well,
if I shorten the buss cable enough,
to make a 34-inch ATA bow
become a 24-inch ATA bow...

the cams are rotating AWAY from the riser,
while the bow is at rest.

So,
let's continue with the 34-inch ATA bow,
which I adjusted the buss cable,
to become a 24-inch ATA bow.

Let's say,
for the 24-inch ATA bow, which USED TO BE a 34-inch ATA bow...

that the cams rotated a 1/2 rotation.


So,
when the 34-inch ATA bow is a 34-inch ATA bow,
let's say that getting to full draw requires a 3/4-rotation of the cams.


So,
when I shrink the buss cable enough
so that the 34-inch ATA bow is now a crazy 24-inch ATA bow,
and the cams, at rest,
are already rotated 1/2 rotation...

then,
the cams can only rotate 1/4-rotation,
to get to full draw.


When you shrink the ATA by twisting the buss cable,
you MOVE the cam starting rotation...partially towards full draw,
while the bow is at rest.


----------



## ToddM

As an update to my 03' ultratec with the left bareshaft impact that did not seem to want to respond to changes.....

As a recap I was getting 2-3" left and nock right bareshaft impacts at 20, and nothing seemed to impact it, after messing with about everything (cam lean, poundage, point weight, tiller, centershot etc.) I was pretty resigned to the fact it was probably just my form/grip. However, I shot a couple other shooters bows that we tuned and could get them to perform and I had those guys shoot my ultratec with very similar results to mine. So in frustration we started making huge adjustments, and I found that if I moved the centershot over to about 1 1/8" the bareshafts impacted with the fletched and arrow flight looked pretty good. Problem is no way my sights would go that far left, and it just looked really really "wrong".

So it was back to the drawing board, and here's what it finally ended up being. When I recently put on new strings I went through the bow, pulled it all down re-lubed stuff, etc. and put it back together. What I noticed is that 3 of my hoyt limbs are from the same "blank" in other words the camo patterns match identical flowing from one limb to the other, but one is different. I also noticed that the outside edges of my lower limbs looked brand new while the insides looked used. So what happened was when I pulled the bow apart I put the left bottom limb on the right, and right bottom limb on the left. 

I reset centershot using a golden key gauge, went to the range, and I had to make a tiny maybe 1/32" rest adjustment and a half twist on one harness side and it was back shooting bareshafts with fletched at 20 yards again like it has in the past. Just swapping those lower limbs left to right changed my center shot by 1/4". 

Now before this incident I never thought anything of which split limb is where on a hoyt because all my hoyt bows the split limbs are marked with the exact same deflection number, and these all are as well. I also ordered this bow new out of the box so this is how it came from Hoyt directly. There must be small minor differences in the lower limbs used to get centershot right, differences that are even less than a single deflection number. The other thing I found interesting is that I used a cam lean laser both before and after the swap, and the cam lean itself barely changed at all on the lower limb with the swap, maybe at most 1/16" when projected to the other limb. 

So this issue/problem and it's solution has really opened my eyes as to just how critical the right (not necessarily identically matched either) limb deflection is to get a bow that tunes just right, with the correct centershot and how tiny of a difference can make big changes. I think it also explains why a lot of guys run into bows that just don't seem to want to tune, if those limbs are not working just right within a tiny tolerance, it really messes with things.

One thing I've done to ensure this does not happen again is I've marked all my limbs on my bows with a sharpie by the limb pockets as to their location. 

I'm glad it's sorted out and I learned a lot figuring it out, but I'd rather not beat my head into that wall again


----------



## wolbear

Very interesting Todd! I have heard much criticism on the "bareshaft" tuning method and many say, "You don't need to worry about that because your bow is tuned "good enough"! Well, sometimes, the little extra effort applied goes miles and miles in understanding our equipment and, as in your case, how something simple can make a world of difference!! Glad you got things sorted out and on the right track!


----------



## Koorsboom

> IN this photo,
> the shooter has his forearm pointed off to the right,
> assuming that he intends to shoot straight ahead.
> 
> No amount of yoke cable leg tuning is going to change
> that the bareshaft will ALWAYS hit off to the right of the fletched arrows, which fly straight head (vane steering correction).
> 
> 
> Now,
> this fella,
> his alignment is much much better,
> and the bareshaft will land much closer to the fletched arrow,
> cuz the release side FOREARM.....is much much more in-line with the arrow alignment.


Thanks for this Alan ... I will check this out tomorrow as no matter what I do to the yoke the bare shafts remain the same distance to the left of the fletched group (shouldn't a torque tamer sort the lateral nock travel out?)

I will try to open my shoulders a bit and see what that does ...


----------



## nuts&bolts

Koorsboom said:


> Thanks for this Alan ... I will check this out tomorrow as no matter what I do to the yoke the bare shafts remain the same distance to the left of the fletched group (shouldn't a torque tamer sort the lateral nock travel out?)
> 
> I will try to open my shoulders a bit and see what that does ...


Hello Koorsboom:

When I am sure that my centershot is perfect with fletched arrows..

I will try 1/8th turn MORE on the limb bolts to shorten my draw length a tiny bit (fix release side forearm alignment)
or
I will try 1/8th turn LESS on the limb bolts to lengthen my draw length a tiny bit (fix release side forearm alignment).

Making adjustments to the limb bolts
can fine tune your total spread distance
(distance from the grip to the tip of the release elbow).

Changes to your shoulders alignment,
makes for LARGE changes in the release side forearm alignment.

If you can have a friend stand on a ladder
and take a photo,
you will easily see your release side forearm alignment.


----------



## bobinhood

Great thread. Thanks for all the information, going to try this myself later in the week.


----------



## michael rankin

I am trying to tune a 2008relative x force. The horizontal tunning is good and the rest is in centershot. I took the strings and cables off and set them to pse specs. My cam timming at full draw looks good. I have a 2.5 inch tail low tear with a bare shaft at fifteen feet.
If i add twists to the buss cable my timing at full draw will change. Can i adust the tail low tear using a the control cable without affecting the rest of my tune? Thanks


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I am trying to tune a 2008relative x force. The horizontal tunning is good and the rest is in centershot. I took the strings and cables off and set them to pse specs. My cam timming at full draw looks good. I have a 2.5 inch tail low tear with a bare shaft at fifteen feet.
> If i add twists to the buss cable my timing at full draw will change. Can i adust the tail low tear using a the control cable without affecting the rest of my tune? Thanks


Adjust the control cable SHORTER.
Confirm that your tiller is even.
Make sure that your arrow rest has the arrow at 90 degrees to the bowstring.


WHAT arrow rest?


----------



## michael rankin

I will try that when i can get to a press. I am using a limb driver pro v. Thank you


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I will try that when i can get to a press. I am using a limb driver pro v. Thank you


Make sure that the arrow is at 90 degrees to the bowstring
or
have the nock a tiny bit higher than 90 degrees,
so the arrow is a tiny, teeny itsy bit downhill,
when the bow riser is vertical (adjust d-loop position).


----------



## jbird90

When doing the bareshaft tuning, should I be concerned about the arrow flight on the way to target. 
I did some test shooting today and got some consistent groups. Then started with a couple bareshafts. Had a pretty good tailwhip to the bareshaft and was hitting about 4 inches right and inch high. Put one twist in left yoke and took out a half in right, and seemed to bring things close. Had a couple good groups, but ran out of time to keep testing. 

However, the shaft still had a good amount of tailwhip even though it was hitting with the fletched shafts. Does that matter? Or are we only concerned with where its hitting the target. 
PSE EVO 7
70# 29DL
Easton Flatline 340


----------



## AngelRa

jbird90 said:


> When doing the bareshaft tuning, should I be concerned about the arrow flight on the way to target.
> I did some test shooting today and got some consistent groups. Then started with a couple bareshafts. Had a pretty good tailwhip to the bareshaft and was hitting about 4 inches right and inch high. Put one twist in left yoke and took out a half in right, and seemed to bring things close. Had a couple good groups, but ran out of time to keep testing.
> 
> However, the shaft still had a good amount of tailwhip even though it was hitting with the fletched shafts. Does that matter? Or are we only concerned with where its hitting the target.
> PSE EVO 7
> 70# 29DL
> Easton Flatline 340


I hope the gurus here will answer your question. All I can tell you is that in my bows bare shaft hit together and it makes bullet holes in paper with bare shafts meaning perfect arrow flight. Try getting bullet holes in paper with bare shaft, then go to the range and bare shaft @ 20 yards. In my case, after getting bullet holes in paper the bare shaft grouped with the fletched arrows without any further tuning, my second bow needed a very small rest adjustment (about 1/32" to 1/16" up)


----------



## ontarget7

jbird90 said:


> When doing the bareshaft tuning, should I be concerned about the arrow flight on the way to target.
> I did some test shooting today and got some consistent groups. Then started with a couple bareshafts. Had a pretty good tailwhip to the bareshaft and was hitting about 4 inches right and inch high. Put one twist in left yoke and took out a half in right, and seemed to bring things close. Had a couple good groups, but ran out of time to keep testing.
> 
> However, the shaft still had a good amount of tailwhip even though it was hitting with the fletched shafts. Does that matter? Or are we only concerned with where its hitting the target.
> PSE EVO 7
> 70# 29DL
> Easton Flatline 340


Most likely caused by weak arrow spine


----------



## aread

Update on my Supra single cam tuning. The problem was that to get good arrow flight, by either paper or bare shaft, I had to move the rest over to the left beyond the range of my scope (right hand bow). I assumed that I was getting system torque from the cable guard. This was wrong. I had a friend shoot the bow and noticed that it actually torques opposite of what would be expected from cable guard torque. Viewed from above, it was twisting counter clockwise. The string was almost rubbing the cam. 

Cam lean was very slight. It tilted top left so that an arrow laid on the cam touched the string at about the nock. I’ve been able to successfully tune other bows with this much lean so I didn’t think it was a problem until my friend drew the bow. I could see a significant twist as he hit full draw. I rearranged the spacers on the cam to move it a tiny bit toward the riser and was easily able to group my bare and fletched shafts out to 30 yards. I’m still getting about 1” left bare shaft, but I don’t think that I can move the cam the very small distance that it would take to correct this. I’ll try this when I can get some extremely thin spacers. 

BTW, the cable guard tuning that I asked about earlier in the thread didn’t seem to make much difference. I’ll experiment with this a little more in the future.

Another thing that I noticed is that the Supra limb pockets will shift a bit with changes in the cam spacer re-arrangement. This seems to be a poor design unless the limb bolts are all the way in. It's a good shooting bow, but it's the last bow that I'll buy with this type of limb pocket design. 

This is a great thread that keeps on giving! I hope everyone else is getting as much from it as I am.

Allen


----------



## nuts&bolts

ontarget7 said:


> Most likely caused by weak arrow spine





jbrid90 said:


> However, the shaft still had a good amount of tailwhip even though it was hitting with the fletched shafts. Does that matter? Or are we only concerned with where its hitting the target.
> PSE EVO 7
> 70# 29DL
> Easton Flatline 340


Agreed.

PSE EVO 7
Draw weight = 70 lbs
Draw length = 29-inches

Easton Flatline 340s..

ASSUMING a 28.0-inch carbon to carbon tube length.
ASSUMING 100 grain field points.


THESE arrows are WAY WAY weak.


*REDUCE the draw weight to 62 lbs or less,*
and the Flatline 340s will tune for you.



If you wish to continue shooting at 70 lbs of draw weight,
switch to any 300 spine arrow,
use 100 grain field points
and
have the carbon to carbon tube length = 28.0-inches.


----------



## jbird90

K. I will look into it. I got some bad info when looking for arrows, I had the pinwheel software on my old computer but that died and I haven't been able to get it working on the new laptop. Got them off here in the classifieds, but I have a buddy who wants them already. So I will have to shop around and see what I can find. But I thought I was in the proper spine size. 

FYI, the arrows were 28.75 from end to valley of nock. So that would make them a bit weaker yet.


----------



## nuts&bolts

jbird90 said:


> K. I will look into it. I got some bad info when looking for arrows, I had the pinwheel software on my old computer but that died and I haven't been able to get it working on the new laptop. Got them off here in the classifieds, but I have a buddy who wants them already. So I will have to shop around and see what I can find. But I thought I was in the proper spine size.
> 
> FYI, the arrows were 28.75 from end to valley of nock. So that would make them a bit weaker yet.


Since your 340s are 28.75-inches long...
these arrows are DANGEROUSLY weak.

*Stop using these arrows,
unless you drop down to 60 lbs of draw weight*.


----------



## jbird90

Wow. Guess I better start looking sooner. 
What software are u usings Nuts? Like to look for some new shafts but obviously I am in the wrong spine range. Just got the bow a month or so ago and am looking for some be arrows.


----------



## jbird90

I looked back at the easton selection charts. Am I reading them wrong. Cuz according to what I am putting in the software, I keep coming up with the flatline 340. 
Here is what I am putting in there selection interactive shaft selector.
Single or Hard cam
100 grain point
29 inch length
67-72# bow

Am I putting in the wrong information?


----------



## dmgiss

subscribed...great info here! Thanks guys!


----------



## nuts&bolts

jbird90 said:


> Wow. Guess I better start looking sooner.
> What software are u usings Nuts? Like to look for some new shafts but obviously I am in the wrong spine range. Just got the bow a month or so ago and am looking for some be arrows.


www.pinwheelsoftware.com
OnTarget2! is the software program.

SHAFT Selector helps you choose arrows.

Software for Archers is the full blown program
and helps you select arrows
and
will help you produce sight tapes for pin sights (calculate pin gaps)
and
will help you produce sight tapes for slider sights.


----------



## nuts&bolts

jbird90 said:


> I looked back at the easton selection charts. Am I reading them wrong. Cuz according to what I am putting in the software, I keep coming up with the flatline 340.
> Here is what I am putting in there selection interactive shaft selector.
> Single or Hard cam
> 100 grain point
> 29 inch length
> 67-72# bow
> 
> Am I putting in the wrong information?


Easton Shaft Selector...

NEVER DID ask you the IBO speed rating for your bow!

The PSE EVO is rated at *327 to 335 fps*.

Not too long ago,
A 2007 Hoyt ProElite with C2 cams was rated at 309 fps IBO.

The PSE EVO is just plain too fast,
to use a GENERIC shaft selector program...

that does NOT take into account the IBO speed rating for the bow,
that does NOT take into account the brace height of the bow.

Use archery software to figure out what arrows you need,
to save you $$ in the long run.

Prevents folks from having to buy arrows TWICE.

I see this ALL the time.


----------



## jbird90

Thanks for the time. I will get the program back on my computer and get some new recommendations for arrows and try this tuning again.....with the right shafts.


----------



## soonerboy

Great Thread!!!


----------



## michael rankin

I tried putting twists into the control cable on my 2008 pse x force to get rid of the tail low tear. It got a little bi better but the cam timming is way off now. I also just put brand new unopened strings and cabless on another x force and it is the same, tail low if the cams are timed at full draw. One bow has a trophy taker and one has a limb driver.
Any ideas?


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I tried putting twists into the control cable on my 2008 pse x force to get rid of the tail low tear. It got a little bi better but the cam timming is way off now. I also just put brand new unopened strings and cabless on another x force and it is the same, tail low if the cams are timed at full draw. One bow has a trophy taker and one has a limb driver.
> Any ideas?


Where did the bareshafts hit in relation to the fletched arrows?

Did you fire at least 2 bareshafts?

Was the bareshaft point of impact RIGHT of the fletched arrows?
Was the bareshaft point of impact LEFT of the fletched arrows?

Was the bareshaft point of impact HIGHER than the fletched arrows?
Was the bareshaft point of impact LOWER than the fletched arrows?

Don't care about the tail.

Need to know about the front end of the bareshafts,
in relation to the fletched arrows.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I tried putting twists into the control cable on my 2008 pse x force to get rid of the tail low tear. It got a little bi better but the cam timming is way off now. I also just put brand new unopened strings and cabless on another x force and it is the same, tail low if the cams are timed at full draw. One bow has a trophy taker and one has a limb driver.
> Any ideas?


Fire bareshafts at a target, 20 yards away.
Fire fletched arrows at a target, 20 yards away,
and take a picture of the target.

Helps if the target bullseye is at YOUR collar bone height.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I tried putting twists into the control cable on my 2008 pse x force to get rid of the tail low tear. It got a little bi better but the cam timming is way off now. I also just put brand new unopened strings and cabless on another x force and it is the same, tail low if the cams are timed at full draw. One bow has a trophy taker and one has a limb driver.
> Any ideas?


Set the cam timing on a draw board,
for the draw stops to hit at the same time.

Set the d-loop position so the arrow is at 90 degrees to the bowstring,
and
set the arrow rest so that the arrow is at the same height as the arrow rest holes.

Then,
fire a group of fletched arrows at a bullseye at YOUR collar bone height.

Fire at least 2 bareshafts at the same collar bone height bullseye.

Also,
take a head to toe photo of yourself at full draw,
while aiming at the collar bone height bullseye.


----------



## michael rankin

I was shooting a bare shaft through paper at 10 or 12. The the tear in paper started out about 2.5 inches tail low with the cams timed on draw board and the d loop about 1/8 high. I added a totol of 4 twists to the control cable and the paper tear went down to about 1.5 inches, but the timing was way off. The draw cycle felt very wierd with no valley. I will try shooting fletched and unfletched groups in a couple days and take pictures. Thank you ver much.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I was shooting a bare shaft through paper at 10 or 12. The the tear in paper started out about 2.5 inches tail low with the cams timed on draw board and the d loop about 1/8 high. I added a totol of 4 twists to the control cable and the paper tear went down to about 1.5 inches, but the timing was way off. The draw cycle felt very wierd with no valley. I will try shooting fletched and unfletched groups in a couple days and take pictures. Thank you ver much.



Hello michael rankin:

This is unusual.

So,
I would go back to the draw board,
and get the cam timing correct again.

D-loop level or d-loop 1/8th inch high...your preference.

Confirm that your arrow rest is coming up to full height, say 1-inch BEFORE you get to full draw
if this is the original style LimbDriver arrow rest.....adjust the cord, as needed, so the arrow rest comes up to full height, 1-INCH before you hit full draw.

If this is the original Limb Driver,
the angle of the arm is also adjustable. You can try a flatter angle (less vertical), and then re-adjust the arrow rest elevation, so the arrow shaft is lined up with the arrow rest holes.


IF this is the original Limb Driver arrow rest,
I would also reduce the spring tension.

Standard method is to have the bow at rest.
Arrow nocked onto the bowstring,
Cord disconnected from the original Limb Driver arrow rest.
HOLD the arm down on the arrow shelf.

Arrow is sitting on top of the arm.

Now, slide your fingertip off the original LimbDriver arm, and allow the arm to spring up.
IF THE SPRING TENSION is TOO HIGH, the arrow will JUMP UP OFF THE ARM of the original LimbDriver arrow rest.

IF THE SPRING TENSION IS TOO LOW, the arm will not come up to the FULL UP position.

So,
gotta find the sweet spot for spring tension, that gets the arm completely to the UP position,
AND
gotta find the sweet spot for spring tension, that doe NOT cause the arrow to JUMP UP off the arm, when the arm pops up to the FULL UP position.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I was shooting a bare shaft through paper at 10 or 12. The the tear in paper started out about 2.5 inches tail low with the cams timed on draw board and the d loop about 1/8 high. I added a totol of 4 twists to the control cable and the paper tear went down to about 1.5 inches, but the timing was way off. The draw cycle felt very wierd with no valley. I will try shooting fletched and unfletched groups in a couple days and take pictures. Thank you ver much.


Hello michael rankin:

IF you have the LimbDriver Pro arrow rest....

then,
I gotta believe that the TAIL LOW through the paper,
is a tiller problem...

as in the BOTTOM LIMBS are working HARDER than the TOP limbs.

So,
return the cam sync using the draw board (cam draw stops hitting at the same time)...

put the d-loop say 1/8th high, the way you like it...

then,
TAKE off 1 turn on the bottom limb bolts,
and leave the top limb bolts alone.

This should take care of the tail low through paper.

Fine tune the lower limb bolt,
with 1/8th turns MORE
or
with 1/8th turns LESS
until you FIX the TAIL LOW paper tear.


When you have the 10 foot and 12 foot paper tuning
with NO TAIL LOW paper tear...

then,
shoot fletched and bareshafts at 20 yards...

and fine tune with the control cable,
to get the bareshaft POINT OF IMPACT
and the fletched POINT OF IMPACT
within your normal 20 yard group size.


----------



## michael rankin

Ill try the spring tension. Im shooting a pro v limb driver on one x force and a trophy taker on the other. Same tail ow tear. Seems like the d loop needs to be about the a 1/4 inch high to bullet hole through paper with out having the bottom cam way advanced.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> Ill try the spring tension. Im shooting a pro v limb driver on one x force and a trophy taker on the other. Same tail ow tear. Seems like the d loop needs to be about the a 1/4 inch high to bullet hole through paper with out having the bottom cam way advanced.


I suspect you are heeling the bow.

So,
tune the bow to the way YOU shoot.

Just take off 1 full turn on the bottom limb.
Set cam timing normally (both stops hitting at the same time).

Try again,
and see what happens.

I would set the d-loop level or at most, 1/8th inch high.


----------



## SEIowaArcher

My results doing this have been excellent. Here is what I did about a month ago and it may vary maybe a little bit from what is being taught on here. This is with a Vendetta XL set at 55 lbs and using a Limbdriver Pro V rest...Whalens hooker release. 

1.) Set bow to specs, cam timing, brace height, ATA, centershot, 90 degree nocking point. Verified draw length was correct. 
2.) Paper tuned with a bareshaft through paper at 5 yards, adjusted rest left 1/16" to achieve a bullet hole. No vertical adjustment necessary. 
3.) Paper tuned with fletched shaft through paper at 5 yards. Bullet hole. 
4.) Took paper away, shot fletched and bare shafts at 5 yards. Bare shaft hit left of the fletched, took a twist out of left yoke, added a twist to the right. Arrows now slapping eachother. 
5.) Moved back to 10 yards. Flaws increased, bare shaft hitting 2" left of fletched shaft. One more twist to the right yoke, one more twist removed from the left. Arrows now slapping eachother. 
6.) Moved back to 20 yards. Bare shaft hitting 4" high of the fletched arrow. Added a twist to the control cable (this was a pain). Shot another couple arrows and the fletched was 1" from the bare shaft. I called this good. 
7.) Moved to 10 yards and 5 yards to verify shafts were still slapping, they were. I had to replace 2 nocks. Oh well. 

I've been practicing now out to 60 yards and I can't even begin to describe how forgiving my setup is now. I shot a turkey this spring at 30 yards, shaking like a leaf, still smoked him in the heart with a mechanical head. My other turkey I shot at 6 yards didn't even stand a chance, haha. I've never had the confidence in myself or my equipment to make that kind of shot before on an animal. This bare shaft tuning REALLY WORKS. I haven't shot my fixed blades through my bow yet but I plan on doing that this weekend to start getting my setup ready for deer season. Hopefully they're hitting in the same spot as my mechanicals and field tips.


----------



## nuts&bolts

SEIowaArcher said:


> My results doing this have been excellent. Here is what I did about a month ago and it may vary maybe a little bit from what is being taught on here. This is with a Vendetta XL set at 55 lbs and using a Limbdriver Pro V rest...Whalens hooker release.
> 
> 1.) Set bow to specs, cam timing, brace height, ATA, centershot, 90 degree nocking point. Verified draw length was correct.
> 2.) Paper tuned with a bareshaft through paper at 5 yards, adjusted rest left 1/16" to achieve a bullet hole. No vertical adjustment necessary.
> 3.) Paper tuned with fletched shaft through paper at 5 yards. Bullet hole.
> 4.) Took paper away, shot fletched and bare shafts at 5 yards. Bare shaft hit left of the fletched, took a twist out of left yoke, added a twist to the right. Arrows now slapping eachother.
> 5.) Moved back to 10 yards. Flaws increased, bare shaft hitting 2" left of fletched shaft. One more twist to the right yoke, one more twist removed from the left. Arrows now slapping eachother.
> 6.) Moved back to 20 yards. Bare shaft hitting 4" high of the fletched arrow. Added a twist to the control cable (this was a pain). Shot another couple arrows and the fletched was 1" from the bare shaft. I called this good.
> 7.) Moved to 10 yards and 5 yards to verify shafts were still slapping, they were. I had to replace 2 nocks. Oh well.
> 
> I've been practicing now out to 60 yards and I can't even begin to describe how forgiving my setup is now. I shot a turkey this spring at 30 yards, shaking like a leaf, still smoked him in the heart with a mechanical head. My other turkey I shot at 6 yards didn't even stand a chance, haha. I've never had the confidence in myself or my equipment to make that kind of shot before on an animal. This bare shaft tuning REALLY WORKS. I haven't shot my fixed blades through my bow yet but I plan on doing that this weekend to start getting my setup ready for deer season. Hopefully they're hitting in the same spot as my mechanicals and field tips.


EXCELLENT work...

Step by Step.

PERFECT tuning procedure.

Learn the concepts,
and then,
apply the methods to YOUR favorite procedures.

The ENTIRE goal of the bareshaft tuning/yoke cable tuning
is to check the point of impact for bare shafts and fletched...

so,
when you clean up the lateral nock travel (bareshafts hitting left or right of fletched)
when you clean up the vertical nock travel (bareshafts hitting high or low of fletched)..

and
confirming that you get consistent results (at LEAST 2 bareshafts hit the same spot at 5 yds, 10 yards and 20 yards)
(cuz the bareshaft/yoke cable tuning does NOT work....if you cannot get 2 bareshafts to hit the same spot)
(gotta work on form, and bow DL setting FIRST)


then,
as you say...

the FLETCHED shaft arrow results are sooo much better.

Glad you like.


----------



## LvToHunt

Unique result. Received my LH Insanity last Friday. Installed an older Rip cord set up to come up in the last 1". Set Centershot, 90 degree nocking point and timed the cams w/ my draw board. Fixed my initial tail left impact right w/ some twists of the yoke. 1/2" low at 20, 3" low at 30. Adjusted rest for the low. Now at 20 the arrow are slapping together. Very tight group the size of a quarter. At 30 bareshafts are at 9 o clock 2" left slight tail high(before the adjustment they were dead level). Before and after the adjustment, I had good groups but now after the adjustment I can clearly see that well below 90 degrees on my nocking point. Also when the nock was at 90 degrees, bareshaft thru paper had 1" vertical high tear which was fixed by raising the rest. It just looks wrong and I never seen this before.


----------



## nuts&bolts

LvToHunt said:


> Unique result. Received my LH Insanity last Friday. Installed an older Rip cord set up to come up in the last 1". Set Centershot, 90 degree nocking point and timed the cams w/ my draw board. Fixed my initial tail left impact right w/ some twists of the yoke. 1/2" low at 20, 3" low at 30. Adjusted rest for the low. Now at 20 the arrow are slapping together. Very tight group the size of a quarter. At 30 bareshafts are at 9 o clock 2" left slight tail high(before the adjustment they were dead level). Before and after the adjustment, I had good groups but now after the adjustment I can clearly see that well below 90 degrees on my nocking point. Also when the nock was at 90 degrees, bareshaft thru paper had 1" vertical high tear which was fixed by raising the rest. It just looks wrong and I never seen this before.


Picture of the bow at rest, with the riser vertical.

Picture of your 30 yard target.
Can't tell from your description.

Bareshafts are hitting left of fletched (9-o'clock) at 30 yards.
So,

is the bareshaft point of impact at the same height as fletched? (don't care about the tail)...
is the bareshaft point of impact ABOVE fletched point of impact?
is the bareshaft point of impact BELOW fletched point of impact?

Did you fire at least 2 bareshafts at 30 yards?

Bareshafts at 30 yards,
doing weird things,
can be bow tuning
and/or
can be shooter form.


----------



## LvToHunt

nuts&bolts said:


> Picture of the bow at rest, with the riser vertical.
> 
> Picture of your 30 yard target.
> Can't tell from your description.
> 
> Bareshafts are hitting left of fletched (9-o'clock) at 30 yards.
> So,
> 
> is the bareshaft point of impact at the same height as fletched? (don't care about the tail)...
> is the bareshaft point of impact ABOVE fletched point of impact?
> is the bareshaft point of impact BELOW fletched point of impact?
> 
> Did you fire at least 2 bareshafts at 30 yards?
> 
> Bareshafts at 30 yards,
> doing weird things,
> can be bow tuning
> and/or
> can be shooter form.


NB Didn't think you'd be on this late. Dead level to the left, 3 BS's at 30. At 20 all were touching. Totally happy with that. Just looks weird w/ the nocking point so low. Arrow is now above center of the bergers. I just was about to re-read your guide. I believe top cam is ahead of the bottom. Set back to 90 degrees and got 1" high tear. Took full turn out of top limb and slight improvement. I'll play w/ timing tomorrow. Looks really close but these older eyes aren't what they used to be. BTW no sleeve issues! I REALLY like the way this bow feels.


----------



## nuts&bolts

LvToHunt said:


> NB Didn't think you'd be on this late. Dead level to the left, 3 BS's at 30. At 20 all were touching. Totally happy with that. Just looks weird w/ the nocking point so low. Arrow is now above center of the bergers. I just was about to re-read your guide. I believe top cam is ahead of the bottom. Set back to 90 degrees and got 1" high tear. Took full turn out of top limb and slight improvement. I'll play w/ timing tomorrow. Looks really close but these older eyes aren't what they used to be. BTW no sleeve issues! I REALLY like the way this bow feels.


I usually recommend bareshaft tuning at 20 yards,
and then...

after you have the vertical and lateral nock travel tuned...for 20 yard fletched and bareshafts..

proceed to group tuning with fletched arrows at 60 yards.


I would return the arrow rest elevation, so the arrow is at the same height as the arrow rest holes.

I also suspect that you are putting more pressure at the top of the grip,
which is just fine. This explains the high tears in paper.

So,
you have already adjusted the top limb bolt 1 turn weaker.
So, if everything is touching at 20 yards (bareshafts and fletched)...

I think your cam sync is just fine. Bares and fletched with little to no left-right error at 20 yards,
means that your yoke cable leg lengths are just fine (zero lateral nock travel).

If bares and fletched are hitting together (little to no vertical change in point of impact at 20 yards),
then,
your cam sync is just fine (no need to adjust the control cable, if you have a hybrid cam system).

So,
proceed to group tuning with fletched arrows at 60 yards,
and 
micro-tune the arrow rest elevation (tiny up and down adjustments)
and
micro-tune the arrow rest centershot (tiny left to right adjustments)

to get the absolute TIGHTEST groups.

Do not worry about WHERE the group lands,
just tweak the arrow rest for the absolute TIGHTEST groups at 60 yards.

When you have TIGHT groups at 60 yards...
then,
just tweak the sight windage to get back onto target,
and
tweak the sight elevation to get back onto target,
with your NEW tight groups.


----------



## jmann28

So, after help from Nuts and Bolts, I am happier than a pig in crap right now. 

I've been battling my mr6 to get broadheads to meet up with fieldpoints. Always a few inches left no matter what! After reading all through this thread and asking questions through PM's, I finally got a day at the range. Now, my bow is tuned great and timed perfectly. Bareshaft is perfect vertically, but 6 inches left. After playing around with my bow arm (forcing it more inline), I get the bareshafts closer. When I got my arm closer, I realized my drawlength was too long! I added the turn and a half I had taken out into my limbs to shorten it up. WHAT DO YOU KNOW, bareshafts and fletched dead center! What made me realize all this was how my string was coming off the track of the top cam. It's always been to the right. After fixing my form, and shortening my DL, it is now almost perfectly strait off. Also, my pins are just about inline with my arrow now, instead of off to the left. 

Moral of the story is... form (release arm inline with the arrow, and a PERFECT draw length are critical in bareshaft tuning. This process not only helped me make sure my bow was tuned, but FIXED MY FORM! Can't wait to slap some broadheads on now! Thanks Alan!


----------



## LvToHunt

NB I think I have it figured out in theory. I think my rest is dropping too soon. Will adjust and see.


----------



## tntone

good stuff...


----------



## jmann28

:darkbeer:


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## michael rankin

I still can't get either x force to tune. I had my destroyer and my hoyt maxxis35 shooting perfect using the procedures outlined by Nuts and Bolts. I ordered a bow press so i will eemeasure the strings and cables on both of the xforce bows i am trying to tune. I have played with timming tiller and rest timming, and i can't get rid of the tail low tear without having the arrow over a 1/4 inch nock high. Same problem on 2the x force bows with different rests and different brands of strings and cables?
Using the search function i found lots of threads about x force bows with this same problem, but the threads juat end and the guys never solved the problem?


----------



## michael rankin

I did actually find a couple where they said pse told them to shoot the pse version of a wisker biscuit.


----------



## rogueworrior

sorry if I missed it. Can someone explain how to tune my Bowtech guardian. What cables do I twist or untwist depending on what happens with my arrows?


----------



## jmann28

michael rankin said:


> I did actually find a couple where they said pse told them to shoot the pse version of a wisker biscuit.


That's a horrible answer


----------



## nuts&bolts

jmann28 said:


> :darkbeer:


Hello jmann28:

AMAZING results!

Congrats.


----------



## nuts&bolts

rogueworrior said:


> sorry if I missed it. Can someone explain how to tune my Bowtech guardian. What cables do I twist or untwist depending on what happens with my arrows?


Hello rogueworrior:

The Bowtech Guardian is a binary cam system bow,
with:

a) bowstring
b) control cable #1
c) control cable #2.

So,
yoke tuning is not possible, cuz there are no yoke cables.

So,
lateral nock travel is not EASILY adjustable.

Sorry.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I still can't get either x force to tune. I had my destroyer and my hoyt maxxis35 shooting perfect using the procedures outlined by Nuts and Bolts. I ordered a bow press so i will eemeasure the strings and cables on both of the xforce bows i am trying to tune. I have played with timming tiller and rest timming, and i can't get rid of the tail low tear without having the arrow over a 1/4 inch nock high. Same problem on 2the x force bows with different rests and different brands of strings and cables?
> Using the search function i found lots of threads about x force bows with this same problem, but the threads juat end and the guys never solved the problem?


Take a look at this thread, about PSE tuning.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1699187&referrerid=22477
See Post #49.

PSE bows, appear to have 4 different limb stiffness ratings on EACH BOW.
The limbs are sequential in stiffness.

The limbs MUST be installed in the correct limb pocket position, 
or
you will drive yourself crazy, trying to tune your bow.


So,
let's say on the BOTTOM of your limbs,
you see the handwritten stiffness code...

CODE 101
CODE 102
CODE 103
CODE 104

With the bow facing a target...

TOP LEFT pocket..............................................TOP RIGHT pocket
*CODE 103)......................................................CODE 101 *
(CODE# = A+2)..............................................(SMALLEST CODE # = A)


BOTTOM LEFT pocket........................................BOTTOM RIGHT pocket
*CODE 102.......................................................CODE 104 *
(CODE# = A+1)...............................................(LARGEST CODE#)


----------



## JJSREEZEN

Thread is in favorites. Thanks for the info.


----------



## pinkfletch

Nuts & Bolts...
TO FIX a vertical nock travel issue,
if the bareshafts are HITTING DIRECTLY BELOW the fletched arrows

if you have a control cable (cable with only 2 end loops),
then, LENGTHEN the control cable a half twist.


If you have a single cam bow,
and you only have a buss cable (YOKE cable...cable with 3 end loops),
then,
SHORTEN the buss cable. 

What to do for twin cam bows

I have learned a lot but still have a problem. I have an old 2000 ultratech with command cam+. I have struggled with drawlength till I found this thread. My bareshafts always went way left and low, nothing would correct this. Many different arrow stiffness, point weights, adjusting the bow weight up or down, nothing worked....after reading this I started letting my drawlength out... as it increased the bareshafts came to the fletched shafts...now I am holding much more solid and feel more comfortable at fulldraw......HOWEVER, the bareshafts still nosedive and hit agout 6" low slapping each other at 15 yds. I use a TT spring steel with a 10 blade, my creep tune is dead on at 40 yds...I have adjusted the timing on the cams to have either the top or the bottom ahead of the other to no avail....what should I be looking at???


----------



## DustyRx

Excellent thread. Marked for later use.


----------



## nuts&bolts

pinkfletch said:


> Nuts & Bolts...
> TO FIX a vertical nock travel issue,
> if the bareshafts are HITTING DIRECTLY BELOW the fletched arrows
> 
> if you have a control cable (cable with only 2 end loops),
> then, LENGTHEN the control cable a half twist.
> 
> 
> If you have a single cam bow,
> and you only have a buss cable (YOKE cable...cable with 3 end loops),
> then,
> SHORTEN the buss cable.
> 
> What to do for twin cam bows
> 
> I have learned a lot but still have a problem. I have an old 2000 ultratech with command cam+. I have struggled with drawlength till I found this thread. My bareshafts always went way left and low, nothing would correct this. Many different arrow stiffness, point weights, adjusting the bow weight up or down, nothing worked....after reading this I started letting my drawlength out... as it increased the bareshafts came to the fletched shafts...now I am holding much more solid and feel more comfortable at fulldraw......HOWEVER, the bareshafts still nosedive and hit agout 6" low slapping each other at 15 yds. I use a TT spring steel with a 10 blade, my creep tune is dead on at 40 yds...I have adjusted the timing on the cams to have either the top or the bottom ahead of the other to no avail....what should I be looking at???




Hello pinkfletch:

TOP limb is working too hard.

Try REMOVING 1 turn off the top limb,
and
try ADDING 1 turn to the bottom limb.

This should level out your nock travel.


----------



## Mordekyle

Nuts & Bolts,

Bows with roller guards do not allow cables and strings to move back and forth, 
adding draw weight and torquing the riser more than bows with a rod for a cable guard.

Presumably bows with a cable guard rod and a slide have less lateral nock travel, 
since they can be adjusted and even bent for minimum fletch clearance.

Either way, it is presumed that yoke tuning can tighten groups.

My question:

Would it be worthwhile to convert a bow with roller style cable guard to a rod style guard prior to yoke tuning?

put another way: Although yoke tuning will presumably tighten groups of any bow with lateral nock travel, is a rod style guard inherently more accurate?

2008 Diamond Marquis, RH 28/60, roller guard


----------



## michael rankin

I got a couple pictures of me shooting my hoyt maxxis, wich is tunning pretty good so far. I quit shooting the x force until the press i ordered comes in. I have tried everthing except checking tje limb deflection numbers. I was curious if what flaws you see in my form in the pictures. It looks like my draw lenght may be an 1/8 or 1/4 inch too long.
Thank you for any input.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Mordekyle said:


> Nuts & Bolts,
> 
> Bows with roller guards do not allow cables and strings to move back and forth,
> adding draw weight and torquing the riser more than bows with a rod for a cable guard.
> 
> Presumably bows with a cable guard rod and a slide have less lateral nock travel,
> since they can be adjusted and even bent for minimum fletch clearance.
> 
> Either way, it is presumed that yoke tuning can tighten groups.
> 
> My question:
> 
> Would it be worthwhile to convert a bow with roller style cable guard to a rod style guard prior to yoke tuning?
> 
> put another way: Although yoke tuning will presumably tighten groups of any bow with lateral nock travel, is a rod style guard inherently more accurate?
> 
> 2008 Diamond Marquis, RH 28/60, roller guard


Hello Mordekyle:

I have a Mathews Apex 7 with the ROLLER GUARD.
I was always sooo disturbed,
seeing the front stabilizer TORQUE significantly to the right,
when I got to full draw.

This was a CLEAR indication that the riser is twisting off to the right,
due to the CRAZY stiff roller guard, pulling the buss cable off to the right.


So,
since I just received a shoot through OK Archery DST 40....

I just HAD to build a shoot through version of the Apex 7 (this is my franken bow with Hoyt Spiral X cams).

Sooooo nice.
I split the buss cable (basically a floating yoke setup with crazy long yoke cable legs with the bottom of the yoke below the string silencer stop).

Bow draws very nicely, and the front stabilizer is now DEAD STRAIGHT, below the arrow.


Sooo,
my conclusions:

1) roller guards induce a SEVERE twisting force onto the riser (MASSIVE amount of twist on the Apex 7)
....the massive twisting force is due to the fixed roller location...the roller wheel does not slide back like a cable guard slide
....a roller guard is a poor design choice, cuz the HUGE twisting force on the riser is REALLY not good for accuracy
....HIGHER draw weight and LONGER DL do not get along with a roller guard design
....say 65 lbs on my Apex 7 franken bow, and 29-inches of DL on my franken bow
*....means the end of the 33-inch Doinker was moving off to the right by 3-INCHES horizontally*
....with my shoot through modification, the Doinker front stabilier is DEAD STRAIGHT

CAN YOU tune a bow where the riser is TWISTING so much, that the end of your front stabilizer MOVES 3-INCHES to the RIGHT, at full draw?
Sure.

Is this good long term for my riser? Nope.


2) Is a CABLE GUARD SUPERIOR to a ROLLER GUARD for target shooters?
....Well, the cable guard can slide back, as needed, for a longer ATA target bow
....cuz the cable guard, if it needs to slide back, then the cable angle at full draw will be LESS SEVERE than a roller guard version of the same bow
....therefore, any TWISTING force from the cable guard on the top axle...on the riser...will be HUGELY less TWISTING FORCE than a roller guard

....LESS TWISTING force on the riser...LESS TWISTING force on the top axle...means LESS lateral nock travel to tune out
....LESS TWIST force on the riser = GOOD news for long term survival of the riser = GOOD news for easier tuning

If I had a choice of RISER designs....

ROLLER GUARD...................................... = end of front stabilizer MOVES at least 3-inches off to the RIGHT, at FULL DRAW
CABLE GUARD (not possible for the Apex 7) = end of front stabilizer MOVES much less SIDEWAYS

SHOOT THRU SYSTEM (home made)...........= end of front stabilizer DOES NOT MOVE sideways AT ALL...

you can see which choice I made.


----------



## nuts&bolts

michael rankin said:


> I got a couple pictures of me shooting my hoyt maxxis, wich is tunning pretty good so far. I quit shooting the x force until the press i ordered comes in. I have tried everthing except checking tje limb deflection numbers. I was curious if what flaws you see in my form in the pictures. It looks like my draw lenght may be an 1/8 or 1/4 inch too long.
> Thank you for any input.





















Release forearm is not in alignment directly behind the arrow.

DL is too long.

Since the release side forearm is like a RIFLE BARREL..

then,
bareshafts will go where the rifle barrel is pointed.

So,
you will get a LEFT paper tear,
your bareshafts will generally have a point of impact off to the right of fletched arrows...

VANES have a TREMENDOUS amount of steering power,
so
fletched arrows can be tuned to go straight...

but,
your potential accuracy will be less than it could be,
until you get the release forearm lined up directly behind the arrow
(shorter DL setting).


----------



## nuts&bolts

The SIDEWAYS creases in your t-shirt tell the entire story.
Leaning backwards.
Arm pits not centered between the ankles.
Work on body posture to get the arm pits CENTERED between your ankles.
Shorten up the bow DL setting a skosh.

Try some bareshafts and fletched arrows.
Tune the DL setting shorter,
until you can get bareshafts and fletched hitting directly above and below each other (ZERO horizontal difference in point of impact).

When you can do this,
then,
the DL is short enough,
then, the release forearm is pointed in the same direction as the arrow is pointed.


----------



## nubbb

That Poor Pool Table!


----------



## nubbb

Nuts, 

Give him the methodology to shorten it.


----------



## AngelRa

I tuned my bows to bare shaft @ 30YD. The next day I have difficulty getting back to it and could not stay on it very long before my bare shafts start to spread again.

So, I decided to start over by first finding the easiest bow hand placement then re-tuning for it.

*OLD grip: *
Bow grip to the right of the life line.
Hand and wrist 100% relaxed/limp.
Knuckles make about 60 degrees down.
Resulting pressures create a small torque moving the stabilizer tip about 1" to the right.
Grip pressure feels at the left edge of the grip.

*NEW grip:*
Bow grip to the right of the life line.
Hand and wrist is 100% relaxed/limp to the vertical axis, but not relaxed for the horizontal axis to make sure it does not rolls to the left.
Knuckles make about 45 degrees down.
There is no visible torque.
Grip pressure feels at the center of the grip.

So, I re-tuned for this grip last night and will update tonight.


----------



## wolbear

One major thing that everyone needs to remember is this: Slightly off shooting form will throw your bare shaft arrows waaay off!! If you feel that you are rushed or even that you are slightly fatigued stop for the evening/afternoon, etc... The worst thing you can do is try to rush or shoot tired and make adjustments. You will find that the next time you go out, you will be shooting off and start to get upset because it was "just" shooting so good last night, but you were tired or rushed and had slightly off form. Just take your time and always remember, if you consciously relax and take your time and give yourself plenty of time to complete the tuning procedures, you will find success. Even new archers will be able to shoot better by taking their time and relaxing rather than rushing and getting upset.


----------



## bigHUN

nuts&bolts:
DST-40 question, not sure you had it set up yet, but I am definitely interested to share the feel. 
I did a french tuning on my (5 & 50 y) with a 1/2" electrical tape placed vertically, and I got it bang on. Actually, not entirely french tuning, set the rest with a digital vernier centered in the window  and starting from there checked the french tuning. so no rest moving L or R 
Than I got the creep tuning set. and finally ended up having the lower timing advanced a bit more than 3mm (1/8)? That's fine..my D-loop is a bit high (maybe 2mm) with a very soft spring steel launcher tension. I can still feel @ the draw that the upper Cam toutches first, than the lower CAM stops the draw, and that is also my max DL.
Earlier years I had my Constitution D-loop inline (90deg) with a soft tension, this is my first time I did set it purposely high on DST-40. On the draw board @ full draw I made the both Cams inline.
I have a group of dozen new xr410s in the yellow on FITA 70m. I don't have bareshaft left, fletch them all last week  Reading through all your inputs, now you made me wonder, I still shall have there room to improve. how would you twist now the 4 cables? same as the creep tuning?
please let me know when U done :thumbs_up


----------



## nuts&bolts

bigHUN said:


> nuts&bolts:
> DST-40 question, not sure you had it set up yet, but I am definitely interested to share the feel.
> I did a french tuning on my (5 & 50 y) with a 1/2" electrical tape placed vertically, and I got it bang on. Actually, not entirely french tuning, set the rest with a digital vernier centered in the window  and starting from there checked the french tuning. so no rest moving L or R
> Than I got the creep tuning set. and finally ended up having the lower timing advanced a bit more than 3mm (1/8)? That's fine..my D-loop is a bit high (maybe 2mm) with a very soft spring steel launcher tension. I can still feel @ the draw that the upper Cam toutches first, than the lower CAM stops the draw, and that is also my max DL.
> Earlier years I had my Constitution D-loop inline (90deg) with a soft tension, this is my first time I did set it purposely high on DST-40. On the draw board @ full draw I made the both Cams inline.
> I have a group of dozen new xr410s in the yellow on FITA 70m. I don't have bareshaft left, fletch them all last week  Reading through all your inputs, now you made me wonder, I still shall have there room to improve. how would you twist now the 4 cables? same as the creep tuning?
> please let me know when U done :thumbs_up


Waiting on some new Doinker parts.
When they arrive, then will start tuning the DST 40.

So,
you do have bareshafts hitting left of fletched?


If you have a group of dozen new XR410s in the yellow at 70 meters,
I think you are doing just fine.

If you want to improve your x-count at 70 meters...

then,
let's see if we can clean up the lateral nock travel.

Since the top and bottom cams are in line with the string,
FIRST try tuning the release side forearm alignment with the limb bolts.

If your *bareshafts are hitting LEFT*, try REMOVING 1/8 turns on the limb bolts...
weaken the limb bolts 1/8th turn at a time,
and this should move your bareshafts into the fletched at 20 yards,
cuz this is a slight *LENGTENING* of the bow DL setting.

If your *bareshafts are hitting RIGHT*, try ADDING 1/8th turns on the limb bolts...
strengthen the limb bolts 1/8th turn at a time,
and this should move your bareshafts into the fletched at 20 yards,
cuz this is a slight *SHORTENING* of the bow DL setting.


----------



## NEVADAPRO

For Updates!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> Waiting on some new Doinker parts.
> When they arrive, then will start tuning the DST 40.
> 
> So,
> you do have bareshafts hitting left of fletched?
> 
> 
> If you have a group of dozen new XR410s in the yellow at 70 meters,
> I think you are doing just fine.
> 
> If you want to improve your x-count at 70 meters...
> 
> then,
> let's see if we can clean up the lateral nock travel.
> 
> Since the top and bottom cams are in line with the string,
> FIRST try tuning the release side forearm alignment with the limb bolts.
> 
> If your *bareshafts are hitting LEFT*, try REMOVING 1/8 turns on the limb bolts...
> weaken the limb bolts 1/8th turn at a time,
> and this should move your bareshafts into the fletched at 20 yards,
> cuz this is a slight *LENGTENING* of the bow DL setting.
> 
> If your *bareshafts are hitting RIGHT*, try ADDING 1/8th turns on the limb bolts...
> strengthen the limb bolts 1/8th turn at a time,
> and this should move your bareshafts into the fletched at 20 yards,
> cuz this is a slight *SHORTENING* of the bow DL setting.




Sooooooooooooooo,
while waiting for those NEW Doinker parts to arrive for the DST 40 photo shoot and tech review...

I decided to UPGRADE my franken bow (Mathews Apex 7 with Hoyt Spiral X cams).....
made the franken bow into a SHOOT THRU system, similar to Dean Pridgen's bow
(floating yoke buss cable, but with SUPER DUPER long legs...the legs split BELOW the string stopper).

The Apex 7 has a tremendous amount of riser twist, with the roller guard.
Now, I only route the control cable through the inboard roller on the roller guard.
Riser twist is reduced SIGNIFICANTLY. Centershot moved much closer to the riser.

My bareshafts were hitting off to the right.
Tweaked the left side SUPER LONG yoke cable leg.
Induced maybe 1/16th inch of left cam lean, using a 29-inch carbon arrow (as a ruler on the draw board)
...end of arrow is 1/16th away from parallel to the string 
...(when the arrow is held TIGHT against the side of the top cam, while on the draw board).

Bareshafts were still hitting 6-inches RIGHT of the fletched arrows.

Soooo,
moved the draw stop peg to the HIGHEST letoff position (shortens the cam rotation....so, it also shortens the draw length a skosh)
and
twisted up the bowstring SHORTER.

*Long story short,
SHORTENED the shoot thru franken bow 1/4-inch SHORTER,
and
bares are NOW hitting with fletched arrows.*

Sometimes,
EVEN for ME,
even when you THINK you have the correct draw length...

bareshafts do not lie.
The release side forearm is like a RIFLE BARREL.
If the release side forearm is pointing off to the RIGHT (forearm is NOT in line behind the arrow)
then,
even though FLETCHED arrows are going where you are aiming with your sight,
the BARESHAFTS will fly where your release side FOREARM is aiming.

So,
when the *DL is even 1/4-inch TOO LONG *(after I made my franken bow into a shoot thru system)
the FLETCHED arrow group size suffers (grows larger).

Lesson Learned.

Try tweaking yoke cable leg lengths to get bareshafts hitting with fletched at 20 yards.
If nothing is working,
and BARESHAFTS stubbornly hit off to the RIGHT of fletched arrows (for a RH shooter)
then,
gotta shorten the draw length maybe 1/8th inch, maybe 1/4-inch.


This works, folks.


Going to do the OK Archery DST 40 photo shoot and tech review...real soon.


----------



## nimrod1034

I'd really like to see a picture of the the apex 7 that sounds like a sweet setup. 

Did you have to put something between the yokes to keep it far enough apart so you don't have fletching contact? 

Also did you change the overall length of that string?


----------



## nuts&bolts

nimrod1034 said:


> I'd really like to see a picture of the the apex 7 that sounds like a sweet setup.
> 
> Did you have to put something between the yokes to keep it far enough apart so you don't have fletching contact?
> 
> Also did you change the overall length of that string?



Yes, MASSIVE changes to the string and buss cable and control cable,
cuz I installed Hoyt Spiral X cams on the Apex 7.

I'll post a pic later tonite.

Yes,
you need to make a "spreader bar"
that keeps the yoke cable legs parallel...

basically make a spreader bar that matches the natural spacing
for the top axle. Some folks use a arrow shaft and two nocks.

Some folks use the Barnsdale Doovawappi spreader.
I believe Genesis Archery also makes a spreader.


----------



## nimrod1034

I figured with the cam swap it would be massive changes. 

But was their a lot of changes from when you went to using the roller guards with the spiral x cams to having the shoot though buss cable with spiral x cams.


----------



## wolbear

I am wondering if this can become the most viewed and responded to thread in AT history! LOL!! It just really makes me feel good that there are so many people wanting to tune their set-ups to perfection! Much better than "Well, I'm hitting a paper plate at 20 yards with 4 out of 6 arrows I'm good to go!"


----------



## nuts&bolts

nimrod1034 said:


> I figured with the cam swap it would be massive changes.
> 
> But was their a lot of changes from when you went to using the roller guards with the spiral x cams to having the shoot though buss cable with spiral x cams.


Well,
when I changed from the Apex 7 29R fixed draw length single cam
to
a Hoyt Spiral X, I gained maybe 8 lbs of draw weight,
using the Spiral X size 4.5 cam at 29-inches of draw length.

So,
the shoot through split buss cable (super long yoke cable legs)
with the spread,
actually shortens the buss cable overall length.

So,
I wanted to drop the draw weight,
by increasing the ATA.

Sooooooooooooo,
purchased a Spiral X size 5.5 cam (thanks edgerat)
and
swapped the Spiral X size 4.5 cams to the Spiral X size 5.5 cams (same cam family)
but...

I lengthened the straight section of the floating yoke cable leg (to increase ATA and drop draw weight).


Well,
since this is a FIXED DL cam setup,
when you INCREASE the buss cable length,
you MUST decrease the control cable length
to keep the cam sync correct.

So,
tweaked the control cable shorter to get the cam sync correct.


Then,
did the "wolbear" bareshaft tuning method
and
tried shortening the LEFT side yoke cable leg,
so that I have a TINY amount of top cam left lean
(29-inch arrow...end of arrow is maybe 1/16th away from parallel to the bowstring, at full draw, in a draw board).

This was the MAX amount of top cam lean I wanted to dial in.

Then,
moved the draw stop peg from the #1 position to the #4 position:

a) shortens draw length slightly...ON PURPOSE, cuz this is what I REALLY wanted
b) holding weight goes up, which is REALLY good, for a hinge release.

Then,
started twisting the bowstring SHORTER,
until the bow DL setting UNTIL .... bareshafts HIT with fletched arrows.

Measured the NEW draw length,
and it was 1/4-inch shorter 
than VERSION 1 of the franken bow.


ATA of VERSION 2 = 38.5-inches
Went from Spiral X size 4.5 to Spiral X size 5.5.
Floating yoke buss cable with shoot thru conversion (spreader below string stopper).
Control cable runs through the LEFT roller wheel on the roller guard.
RIGHT side roller wheel on the roller guard is now EMPTY.

Draw weight is somewhere in the 55-lb range-ish.
Holding weight is 22 lbs-ish.

VERY smooth.

Front stabilizer no longer swings way way way off to the right.


----------



## nuts&bolts

nimrod1034 said:


> I figured with the cam swap it would be massive changes.
> 
> But was their a lot of changes from when you went to using the roller guards with the spiral x cams to having the shoot though buss cable with spiral x cams.


If you don't mind the increase in draw weight
going from the Apex 7 29R cam (60 lbs max)
to the Spiral X size 4.5 cam...(65 lbs max-ish)...

then, going from the roller guard setup
to the shoot through split buss cable floating yoke setup..

you will gain a bit more poundage, cuz the shoot thru spreader shortens the buss cable slightly.

Will only need to lengthen the control cable slightly,
to get back to "correct or original" cam sync.

Not many changes going from standard roller guard/cable guard configuration
to
a shoot thru configuration.


----------



## Carroll in MO

Good info, thanks Alan. Now that is fine reading.


----------



## aread

A few years ago, I made a similar cam switch. I put a set of Command Cams on a Mathews Icon. It added almost 15 lbs to the draw weight. Started with 50# DW and ended up with 64#.

It was a lot of fun experimenting with it. It took me a while to get the string and cable lengths. I quickly learned to us BCY450 string material since you need about half as many strands.  It was a really good shooting bow and super easy to tune. I wish I still had it set up like that. 

I used short sections of arrows with nocks on both ends for the spreaders. A new longer top cam axel was easy enough to make on my lathe from 3/16" drill stock and a couple of new string bushing from a scrap piece of aluminum. (I don't know how I got along without a lathe for so many years)

Allen


----------



## AngelRa

Nuts,

Do you have photos of your Franken-Apex? Have you name it?


----------



## nuts&bolts

AngelRa said:


> Nuts,
> 
> Do you have photos of your Franken-Apex? Have you name it?


Pics later tonite.

SpiralApex7 Shoot Thru


----------



## Bryan Johnson

wolbear & nuts&bolts thanks for all the information that has been provided in this thread. I had never heard of adjusting bareshafts this way,but I gave it a try. I started out shooting about 2 inches left at 20 so I put a couple of twist in the right side went back and shoot some more and ended up about a inch right. So I went back and took a 1/2 back out of the right side. That took care of the left and right impact just as was suggested it would. Then moved on to the up and down after going the wrong direction a couple of times I finally got right at 20 and 30. But at 40 I am about 2-3 inches low. Should I try to take another 1/2 twist out or let it be. Again thanks for this information one is never to old to learn something new.


----------



## DeanoZ

*Results so far...*

Hey Alan,

I owe you an update, if you recall I had asked you some time back about bareshaft tuning through paper. Well it does work and once I had it shooting bullet holes from 20 ft I then French tuned and proceeded to group tune. Now the first time I tried it at 20 my groups were all over the place, so this time I tried it at 15 yards and had a nice group right in the bull, then decided to shoot one bareshaft and it buried right in the middle of the group. So i said ok, let me try it now at 20 yards, and the 1st photo below is the result. Vertically they seem ok, and I could probably stand to raise the rest a skosh up, but horizontally I was all over the place, which seems to be a trend with me..I'll shoot two rounds of a half dozen arrows and then my groups fall apart. Anyway, I decided at that point to try and shoot two bareshafts and keep shooing them until they are slapping together. The second pic is at 20 yards and the 3rd pic was my last one of the day at 15 yards and that's about as close as i can get them. So correct me if I'm wrong but what they are telling me is a couple things, 1. My form must not be correct 2. I'm chasing the bull and 3. I think I'm chasing the bull because the holding weight may be too much for me. My current setup is an SR-71, set to 70# and 27.5" DL shooting a 26.5" HT-2 350 spine arrow. Your thoughts?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Bryan Johnson said:


> wolbear & nuts&bolts thanks for all the information that has been provided in this thread. I had never heard of adjusting bareshafts this way,but I gave it a try. I started out shooting about 2 inches left at 20 so I put a couple of twist in the right side went back and shoot some more and ended up about a inch right. So I went back and took a 1/2 back out of the right side. That took care of the left and right impact just as was suggested it would. Then moved on to the up and down after going the wrong direction a couple of times I finally got right at 20 and 30. But at 40 I am about 2-3 inches low. Should I try to take another 1/2 twist out or let it be. Again thanks for this information one is never to old to learn something new.


Shoot bareshafts
and fletched shafts 
at 20 yards.

Tweak yoke cable leg lengths to correct the horizontal error.

After the horizontal error is fixed,
go fix any vertical difference in point of impact between fletched and bareshafts.

When you have fletched AND BARESHAFTS hitting together AT 20 YARDS....

go and shoot fletched arrows at 60 yards
and GROUP TUNE the arrow rest (tiny adjustments to the arrow rest)
to NOW get the best FLETCHED groups ever!


----------



## nuts&bolts

DeanoZ said:


> Hey Alan,
> 
> I owe you an update, if you recall I had asked you some time back about bareshaft tuning through paper. Well it does work and once I had it shooting bullet holes from 20 ft I then French tuned and proceeded to group tune. Now the first time I tried it at 20 my groups were all over the place, so this time I tried it at 15 yards and had a nice group right in the bull, then decided to shoot one bareshaft and it buried right in the middle of the group. So i said ok, let me try it now at 20 yards, and the 1st photo below is the result. Vertically they seem ok, and I could probably stand to raise the rest a skosh up, but horizontally I was all over the place, which seems to be a trend with me..I'll shoot two rounds of a half dozen arrows and then my groups fall apart. Anyway, I decided at that point to try and shoot two bareshafts and keep shooing them until they are slapping together. The second pic is at 20 yards and the 3rd pic was my last one of the day at 15 yards and that's about as close as i can get them. So correct me if I'm wrong but what they are telling me is a couple things, 1. My form must not be correct 2. I'm chasing the bull and 3. I think I'm chasing the bull because the holding weight may be too much for me. My current setup is an SR-71, set to 70# and 27.5" DL shooting a 26.5" HT-2 350 spine arrow. Your thoughts?


If you are running 100 grain field points....

the arrows spine perfectly.

Shooting bareshafts, at least two, is a humbling experience.

70 lbs is a lot of draw weight, to try and get two bareshafts to slap together.
Try 67 lbs and see what happens when you are well rested.

We should ONLY attempt this type of tuning when well rested.


----------



## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> Pics later tonite.
> 
> SpiralApex7 Shoot Thru


As promised.























































I wrapped the front of the arrow in paper for picture taking purposes.


For folks who have an Apex 7,
then you will KNOW how much riser twist has been eliminated
at full draw.


----------



## cenochs

Great info


----------



## nuts&bolts

Did a little short range testing
in my garage, with the Spiral Apex 7,
recently modified into a shoot thru system.

I had the spreader bar BELOW the string stopper
and
tonite moved the stopper bar ABOVE the string stopper.

This new position for the spreader bar,
changed the effective length of the buss cable,
so I had to tweak the control cable to get the cam sync correct again.

I just love to tweak.

Got the cam sync fixed.

Shooting at 3 yards-ish,
with a fletched arrow.



















I think the centershot and sight windage (MODIFIED french tuning) is solid.

Now, I gotta admit...

this was with a 6X lens,
open peep sight (Titan),
so no clarifier,
and 
NO GLASSES...

nice blurry sight picture.

More of "form training" cuz I can't really see clearly with no glasses..
and
*it took several tries.*

But, you get the idea.
Short range training, especially with no glasses (for glasses wearers)
forces you to focus on the FEEL of the shot,
and centering the circle of the peep with the circle of the scope housing
and lining up the thin white string
with the up pin.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Best I could do with a bareshaft, 
at 3 yards-ish,
with the Spiral Apex 7, shoot thru system.


----------



## AngelRa

Good job with the Spiral-Apex 7, thanks for the photos. I am going to make a fixture to mount cams at a set distance and fix rotation so I can measure new string/cable lengths without the risk, danger and hard work of figuring out using a bow. With a fixture I could use simple rope to get my measurements since there is little tension.


----------



## nimrod1034

That is a beautiful bow and it is a tact driver.


----------



## DeanoZ

nuts&bolts said:


> The SIDEWAYS creases in your t-shirt tell the entire story.
> Leaning backwards.
> Arm pits not centered between the ankles.
> Work on body posture to get the arm pits CENTERED between your ankles.
> Shorten up the bow DL setting a skosh.
> 
> Try some bareshafts and fletched arrows.
> Tune the DL setting shorter,
> until you can get bareshafts and fletched hitting directly above and below each other (ZERO horizontal difference in point of impact).
> 
> When you can do this,
> then,
> the DL is short enough,
> then, the release forearm is pointed in the same direction as the arrow is pointed.


Alan, not following the comment "Arm pits not centered between the ankles." ?


----------



## nuts&bolts

DeanoZ said:


> Alan, not following the comment "Arm pits not centered between the ankles." ?


Just means to learn how to stand up straight.


----------



## turkeyhunter60

Subscibed....


----------



## DeanoZ

nuts&bolts said:


> Just means to learn how to stand up straight.


Gotcha now! Thanks!


----------



## nuts&bolts

*USE a bareshaft and a string....to figure your BEST DL setting*



nuts&bolts said:


> Best I could do with a bareshaft,
> at 3 yards-ish,
> with the Spiral Apex 7, shoot thru system.



ONE more thing I forgot to mention.

Using a string hanging down in front of a target block...
and firing a bareshaft at the string...

and trying to get the bareshaft point of impact to TOUCH the string...

is the BEST way to figure out your draw length.


The shoot thru conversion changed my shooting posture slightly (large forearms)
so...

I could not get the bareshaft closer than 6-inches to the RIGHT of the fletched arrow at 20 yards.
HAD to untwist the shoot thru buss cable legs 
(longer ATA reduces brace height)
which reduces the bow DRAW LENGTH setting
and
had to twist the bowstring shorter
and
had to move the Hoyt Spiral X cam draw stop to the maximum HOLDING WEIGHT position (this also shortens the DL slightly).

Had to do all of these things to SHORTEN the bow DL setting, for the shoot thru Apex 7 with Spiral X cam.....to get this result,
the BARESHAFT and the FLETCHED arrow touching the string.

AFTER I was finally able to get the bareshaft AND the FLETCHED arrow to touch the string hanging in front of the target block....

I checked on the draw board,
and was SHOCKED I had to shorten my draw length 1/4-inch.


So,
if you want the TIGHTEST groups,
if you want to hold ROCK STEADY...

try this simple test.

Block target.
String with some weight on the end...hanging down in front of the target block.

I stepped back only 3-yards ish, cuz this is all the room I have in my garage.

Fire a fletched arrow at the string.
TWEAK sight pins windage until you can touch or SPLIT the string.

Now,
pull the fletched arrow,
and 
fire a bareshaft.

If you miss to the RIGHT,
tweak the yoke cable legs SHORTER on the left side of the buss cable.

If the bareshaft will NOT MOVE any further left towards the string,
with buss cable leg adjustments in the SHORTER direction....

the bareshaft is STUCK off to the right...bareshaft will NOT touch the string hanging in front of the block...

then,
GOTTA admit it...

(I even surprised myself),
gotta shorten the bow DL setting.

Keep whacking off DL by 1/2 inch amounts (if you have an adjustable draw length cam system),
until you FINALLY get the bareshaft just to the LEFT side of the string hanging down in front of your block.

Then,
untwist the bowstring slightly LONGER (untwist at both ends of the bowstring),
until you get the bareshaft
JUST TOUCHING the string hanging down in front of the block.


This is the ABSOLUTE best way to figure out what draw length setting WORKS for you.

The release forearm is LIKE a rifle barrel.
If the release forearm is pointing OFF TO THE RIGHT...when YOU are at full draw,
then,

the bareshaft,
which has ZERO steering correction,
will FLY OFF TO THE RIGHT, 
regardless of what YOU think your draw length should be.


When the bow DL is too long,
then,
the elbow is too far behind your head,
and
the release forearm is going to point off to the RIGHT.


So,
if you can repeatedly,
hit the string on the block,
evenly shooting just 3-4 yards away in your garage,
with a bareshaft...

then,
your bow DL is just fine.

Even 1/4-inch LONG,
makes a difference.

The shoot thru FEELS and SHOOTS great,
with the 1/4-inch DL reduction.


----------



## NoFences4Me

Great info, thanks.


----------



## Bill 2311

I never shot bare shafts much. I always did well with a paper tune and then walk back. Fine tuning with broadheads was then really close, if not right on. However, I just started to bare shaft shoot. The first thing I learned was that aside from tuning, bare shaft shooting out to 30 yards quickly shows me if I torque the bow. Even though bow is now tuned, I will continue to shoot bare shafts just for the technique.


----------



## pinkfletch

UPDATE>>>SEE BELOW!!!
TOP limb is working too hard.

Try REMOVING 1 turn off the top limb,
and
try ADDING 1 turn to the bottom limb.

This should level out your nock travel.[/QUOTE]

Doing this the best I could get is BS 2" below fletched...already have limb bolts backed out at max to get down to a draw wt. I can handle...ended up taking pic's of me at full draw to start with and found I was severely hunched over and bending over at the waist to get into the string...Lengthened draw by 1+" and now am standing straight..the group below is at 40 yds and the dot is 2.5" for reference...I have been down with a BAD cold for several days and the shots were shaky and not as good as I feel I can hold now....THANKS BUNCHES


----------



## hardy86

Anyone try shooting bareshafts out of a bow with out yoke ends? I am curious if those cam styles have less horizontal nock travel than others with yokes. What cam system has the least amount of nock travel?


----------



## jmann28

hardy86 said:


> Anyone try shooting bareshafts out of a bow with out yoke ends? I am curious if those cam styles have less horizontal nock travel than others with yokes. What cam system has the least amount of nock travel?


A few posts back is done with my monster mr6. Floating yokes doing exactly as claimed to do


----------



## nuts&bolts

pinkfletch said:


> Doing this the best I could get is BS 2" below fletched...already have limb bolts backed out at max to get down to a draw wt. I can handle...ended up taking pic's of me at full draw to start with and found I was severely hunched over and bending over at the waist to get into the string...Lengthened draw by 1+" and now am standing straight..the group below is at 40 yds and the dot is 2.5" for reference...I have been down with a BAD cold for several days and the shots were shaky and not as good as I feel I can hold now....THANKS BUNCHES


GREAT shooting.

Congrats.


----------



## nubbb

Nice shooting


----------



## SonnyThomas

Been following this thread for quite some time, since it began. Can't believe it's still going. Beyond doubt there is a lot of good information here, but dang... Bare shaft tuning out to questionable distances is hard to choke down. I have spoke one on one with a couple of vane companies and yes, they have shot outstanding groups out to 50 or 60 yards with bare shafts, but bare shafts that were weighted with like weight of the vanes to be used. This was said getting drastic, but for the science side of things. Said was; "Normally, bare shaft tuning up close will well suffice."

No matter what, tuning with a bare shaft is tuning a dead arrow in flight. What, static? And then tuning a helical fletched arrow is dynamic? Hey, the arrow is acted upon by spin.

So every fletching maker has their claim of accuracy with their vanes - sort of driving home that a bare shaft arrow is next to junk without vanes. And then the greatest use of a brand or even style of vane is virtually nothing but personal perference (include me). Most use some type of offset and have outstanding results and others claim full helical is the only way to go.

Think I'll go have another cup of coffee.


----------



## Ijaw

:moviecorn


----------



## jbird90

Getting great results now. Moved my draw length a peg shorter. Now 28.5. And things are grouping awesome. Mainly because it helped my form. Release elbow is now slightly elevated, and everything feels like its in front of me rather that fighting to find the peep because I had a slight head lean into the string. Shorter DL helped me hold better, which in turn helped my sight float better. Add in a slight grip change And all is good. The longer draw had me heeling the now in order to push farther away to get my anchor point right. Now it's on the thumb pad and feels great. Thread helped a lot of things come together for me.


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## rajahmar

Great results with my bare shaft tuned Apex 8 and just want to share this with you all.

Yesterday I was training on field at 50 meters range (about 55 yards?). Shot a few rounds and after one round was going really smoothly, I decided to test bare shafts as well. There was a bit windy...

This is how it went:








I have done it earlier a few times and at the moment bare shaft POIs are vertically in the same line but horizontally a bit on right side. Grouping will get worse if I touch arrow rest. So my DL is probably a bit long but not that much anyway. Feel that my setup is now where it should be and no need to do tuning anymore. Just to go there and shoot more:thumbs_up

I'm now using 420 pro tours (27,5") and 120 grains points. I played also 100 and 110 grain points but was not able to see anything special in the grouping and decided to use 120 grain points anyway. However, I have shot bare shafts also from 70 (76,5 yards?) meters and it went quite ok. Bare shafts POIs went 2-3 times more to right than in 50 meters. Have not had courage to try bare hafts at 90 meters, but definitely believe that is possible to do, if the bow is tuned really well.

Now I'm using easton tite flight and FF 187 vanes, have not noticed too much difference between those least grouping point of view.

With this thread I have fixed a bit my form, tuned a lot my Apex and learned a tons of tuning. Thanks to all and special thanks to Alan.

-Markku


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## sixgunluv

I recently changed the string on my Black Ice. It was spot on tuned. Now after changing the string the broadheads are shooting 3o'clock 3-4inches. I had everything spot on. So where should I start now? Bare shaft? Cable Legs? I would just move the rest but like I said everything was good until I had the string changed, so I suspect it need a little tweaking......


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## Marooned

good thread!


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## pcaz

sixgunluv said:


> I recently changed the string on my Black Ice. It was spot on tuned. Now after changing the string the broadheads are shooting 3o'clock 3-4inches. I had everything spot on. So where should I start now? Bare shaft? Cable Legs? I would just move the rest but like I said everything was good until I had the string changed, so I suspect it need a little tweaking......


Your rest should be ok! when ever you change your strings or cables you need to re-tune your bow. check your center shot incase you need to adjust your rest, then do your bare shaft tuning. and you should be back in buisness.


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## hatchettjack

Subscribed

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2


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## sixgunluv

sixgunluv said:


> I recently changed the string on my Black Ice. It was spot on tuned. Now after changing the string the broadheads are shooting 3o'clock 3-4inches. I had everything spot on. So where should I start now? Bare shaft? Cable Legs? I would just move the rest but like I said everything was good until I had the string changed, so I suspect it need a little tweaking......


Good gravy...i found the problem. Cheap walmart broadhead had a bent ferule...AND the arrow it was on was whacked. Put on my Muzzy practice broadhead and no problems...dead nuts. Not buying anymore of these old Blackhawk Vapors that i got on the cheap either. I invested in a grain scale and you wouldn't believe the difference in weights...I had to make 4 piles out of the 3 dz arrows I had! No problems with my GT Exp Hunters though and my new Victory HV's are also spot on.

Put a good broadhead and tried a field tip on that one arrow and it would SAIL 3ft left at 30yds! No cracks or splits didn't look like anything was wrong with it...??.. wonder what would make it do that?


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## us326544

I think I'm there!!!!! Thanks Nuts&Bolts for sharing your knowledge and to the OP for posting. BTW to all those who say that you CAN'T shoot overspined arrows with a release and FP's, (shooting broadheads or fingershooters are another animal according to nuts&bolts),....the picture is both 400's and 340's at 20 yds. I am significantly overspined with the 340's and my setup.










This was a sort of frustrating experience for me as I bought a new Z7 Extreme a few months ago and expected that the archery shop would set it up close at least. To make a long story short, I ended up having to build a draw board to check idler wheel lean (after reading everything on Nuts&Bolts sticky). It took 2 1/2 twists in left yolk cable and 3 untwists in right yolk cable to get idler perfect. I actually needed to put another 2 twists into bus cable to get the cam timing right (which was way off). And then adjusted my rest to near perfect (using the modified french tuning method). This was a 3 week process cuz I don't have a bow press and needed to gain understanding on bow tuning, but to me it is worth it to know that your bow is right on. Thanks again


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## dougedwards

marked


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## wolbear

Remember archery by no means is "rocket science". I understand the hesitation of some to make changes to their equipment. When I first started into archery (I am a tinkerer by nature) I was running to the shop every other day it seemed. I would try this or try that and mess something up. Finally the shop owner ask why I messed with my equipment all the time. I explained that I enjoyed tinkering with the set-up to try to maximize performance and arrow flight. He told me to come to the shop the following day. When I arrived, he had 3 or 4 different bows hanging behind the counter that needed different things done to them. He said, "Today will be the first BEST day of archery for you!" He went on to train me in the proper way to tinker. Now, 15 years later I feel blessed that he took the time to take me under his wing and teach me everything he has. I am totally self sufficient when it comes to dealing with my equipment. The best thing anyone can do IMHO is not be afraid to ask questions and try new things frequently.


----------



## aread

wolbear said:


> Remember archery by no means is "rocket science". I understand the hesitation of some to make changes to their equipment. When I first started into archery (I am a tinkerer by nature) I was running to the shop every other day it seemed. I would try this or try that and mess something up. Finally the shop owner ask why I messed with my equipment all the time. I explained that I enjoyed tinkering with the set-up to try to maximize performance and arrow flight. He told me to come to the shop the following day. When I arrived, he had 3 or 4 different bows hanging behind the counter that needed different things done to them. He said, "Today will be the first BEST day of archery for you!" He went on to train me in the proper way to tinker. Now, 15 years later I feel blessed that he took the time to take me under his wing and teach me everything he has. I am totally self sufficient when it comes to dealing with my equipment. The best thing anyone can do IMHO is not be afraid to ask questions and try new things frequently.


You are extremely fortunate to have a shop owner like that!!

Post up his name and shop name. We all need to know about good shops like that.

Allen


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## x-by-x

Marked for reference. Awesome inormation here guys and gals.

x


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## nuts&bolts

us326544 said:


> I think I'm there!!!!! Thanks Nuts&Bolts for sharing your knowledge and to the OP for posting. BTW to all those who say that you CAN'T shoot overspined arrows with a release and FP's, (shooting broadheads or fingershooters are another animal according to nuts&bolts),....the picture is both 400's and 340's at 20 yds. I am significantly overspined with the 340's and my setup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was a sort of frustrating experience for me as I bought a new Z7 Extreme a few months ago and expected that the archery shop would set it up close at least. To make a long story short, I ended up having to build a draw board to check idler wheel lean (after reading everything on Nuts&Bolts sticky). It took 2 1/2 twists in left yolk cable and 3 untwists in right yolk cable to get idler perfect. I actually needed to put another 2 twists into bus cable to get the cam timing right (which was way off). And then adjusted my rest to near perfect (using the modified french tuning method). This was a 3 week process cuz I don't have a bow press and needed to gain understanding on bow tuning, but to me it is worth it to know that your bow is right on. Thanks again



Congrats!

Not only do you have your bow tuned to PERFECTION,
but,
you also have SOLID form.


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## FlBowHunter2000

Subscribed! Excellent post-I still use the bow tuning guide that bowtechcmdr put together for Alan.

Sent from my wigwam using smoke signals.


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## FlBowHunter2000

Ttt

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk 2


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## bobinhood

Up to the top


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## engm444

*.*

Marked


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## hoytbaxter

Tagged for later use. I love the OCD you all have (me included). I too, want to know it is me, not my equipment that will fail.


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## Huntinsker

I'm marking this too. Good work and thanks for sharing.


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## stickman6

Subscribed! Great info guys. Really helps a novice like me.


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## Huntinsker

I finally got my Anarchy back and all set up. I tuned it last night using the info on here (modified French tuning then bareshaft) and got these results. They are only at 10 yards because it was way too windy to do this outside yesterday but I can't wait to see how the bareshafts group at 20 or 30.


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## nuts&bolts

Huntinsker said:


> I finally got my Anarchy back and all set up. I tuned it last night using the info on here (modified French tuning then bareshaft) and got these results. They are only at 10 yards because it was way too windy to do this outside yesterday but I can't wait to see how the bareshafts group at 20 or 30.
> View attachment 1416690


EXCELLENT work.

Well done!


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## Huntinsker

Okay so I have my bare shafts hitting with my fletched at 10 and 20. When I went to 30 they were 4 inches left and 4 inches high and 40 they were 8 left and 8 high. Should I twist my yolk to get them closer or would I be wasting my time?


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## nuts&bolts

Huntinsker said:


> Okay so I have my bare shafts hitting with my fletched at 10 and 20. When I went to 30 they were 4 inches left and 4 inches high and 40 they were 8 left and 8 high. Should I twist my yolk to get them closer or would I be wasting my time?


Did you shoot at least TWO bareshafts
and were you slapping the TWO bareshafts together?

At distances LONGER than 20 yards....

shooting bareshafts 
is MORE about shooter technique,
is MORE about shooter consistency...

than bow tuning adjustments.


Since you shot two distances..
and both times,
the bareshaft was hitting high.....

I would LENGTHEN the buss cable...take out 1 twist off the *bottom* of the buss/yoke cable
and see how you do for vertical nock travel...

see if the bare shafts hit with your fletched at 30 yards and at 40 yards.

The goal of the bareshafts hitting with the fletched arrows at the SAME height on the target,
at 30 yards and 40 yards,
is that your FLETCHED arrow groups should get FLATTER (less high-low misses).


Since your bareshafts are hitting high,
you can ALSO take 1/16th turn OFF the bottom limb bolt...just a TINY TWEAK on the bottom limb bolt...*weaken the bottom limb a TINY BIT.*


----------



## Huntinsker

Thanks. I did shoot two bare shafts with a group of 3 fletched. The two bare shafts were an inch or two apart at both distances, high and left of the bare shafts. Should I bother with the yolk for lateral nock travel or just assume that I am not consistent enough? I haven't been able to shoot very much the last month because I had a cracked limb and then they mixed up my bow with another guys. They sent a brand new one to make up for it but it still kept me from shooting much.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Huntinsker said:


> Thanks. I did shoot two bare shafts with a group of 3 fletched. The two bare shafts were an inch or two apart at both distances, high and left of the bare shafts. Should I bother with the yolk for lateral nock travel or just assume that I am not consistent enough? I haven't been able to shoot very much the last month because I had a cracked limb and then they mixed up my bow with another guys. They sent a brand new one to make up for it but it still kept me from shooting much.


I would work on the high low aspect first.
Tweak the buss cable and try and get the bareshafts and the fletched hitting at the same height.

If needed, weaken the bottom limb a tiny bit.


Fixing bareshaft misses left or right...at 30 or 40 yards,
could be many things.....bow hand position incorrect....a bit of tension in the bow hand thumb muscle...release forearm out of alignment.

When you get the bareshafts hitting at the same height as the fletched at 40 yards....(vertical tuning),
then,
I would shoot fletched arrows
and tweak your bow for the tightest fletched groups.


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## Huntinsker

Thank you for all your time and help. I really appreciate it and I know a lot of other guys on here do as well.


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## nuts&bolts

Huntinsker said:


> Thank you for all your time and help. I really appreciate it and I know a lot of other guys on here do as well.


Welcome.

You can drive yourself absolutely NUTS...bonkers,
tuning with bareshafts at long range.

I usually don't try to shoot bareshafts past 20 yards.

Shooting bareshafts at 30 and 40 yards...even 60 yards,
it is MORE a test of shooter technique..shooter consistency.

Requires repeated tests, to get good solid information.

Since you are getting consistently high bareshaft results,
then,
we KNOW we need to make a minor adjustment for vertical nock travel.


Getting a bareshaft close to fletched at 40 yards,
is VERY VERY good shooting.


----------



## a/c guy

"Since you shot two distances..
and both times,
the bareshaft was hitting high.....

I would LENGTHEN the buss cable...take out 1 twist off the *bottom* of the buss/yoke cable
and see how you do for vertical nock travel... "



Alan, would shortening the control cable have the same effect as lengthening the BC?


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## locusthill1831

Marked for later review!


----------



## nuts&bolts

a/c guy said:


> "Since you shot two distances..
> and both times,
> the bareshaft was hitting high.....
> 
> I would LENGTHEN the buss cable...take out 1 twist off the *bottom* of the buss/yoke cable
> and see how you do for vertical nock travel... "
> 
> 
> 
> Alan, would shortening the control cable have the same effect as lengthening the BC?


For the single cam bow,
since he has not control cable,
then,
the recommendation was to work the buss cable
and try to get the vertical nock travel adjusted...

to FLATTEN the arrow group size.


If you have a hybrid cam bow,
you have many more options..

cuz you have the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)
and
you have the control cable (cable with only 2 end loops).

If you want to FLATTEN your arrow groups (reduce the vertical misses...high/low)..
then,
with a hybrid cam bow,
you really want to CREEP TUNE your bow.

So,
I prefer to work the control cable, when creep tuning.

Horizontal strip of duct tape, at 20 yards.
Fire at the top edge of the duct tape.
3 shots with NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.
3 shots with HIGHER THAN NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.











So,
3 shots hit LOWER....3 shots hit HIGHER.

You can choose to work the buss cable (add or remove twists).
You can choose to work the control cable (add or remove a half twist).

Either one will work.

I prefer to work the control cable.
Pick a direction,
and add a half twist...

or

try the other direction
and remove a half twist.

Pretty soon,
you will figure out what direction you need to adjust
to get ALL SIX arrows hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape,
at 20 yards.


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## xecutioner

tagged


----------



## a/c guy

nuts&bolts said:


> For the single cam bow,
> since he has not control cable,
> then,
> the recommendation was to work the buss cable
> and try to get the vertical nock travel adjusted...
> 
> to FLATTEN the arrow group size.
> 
> 
> If you have a hybrid cam bow,
> you have many more options..
> 
> cuz you have the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)
> and
> you have the control cable (cable with only 2 end loops).
> 
> If you want to FLATTEN your arrow groups (reduce the vertical misses...high/low)..
> then,
> with a hybrid cam bow,
> you really want to CREEP TUNE your bow.
> 
> So,
> I prefer to work the control cable, when creep tuning.
> 
> Horizontal strip of duct tape, at 20 yards.
> Fire at the top edge of the duct tape.
> 3 shots with NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.
> 3 shots with HIGHER THAN NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> 3 shots hit LOWER....3 shots hit HIGHER.
> 
> You can choose to work the buss cable (add or remove twists).
> You can choose to work the control cable (add or remove a half twist).
> 
> Either one will work.
> 
> I prefer to work the control cable.
> Pick a direction,
> and add a half twist...
> 
> or
> 
> try the other direction
> and remove a half twist.
> 
> Pretty soon,
> you will figure out what direction you need to adjust
> to get ALL SIX arrows hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape,
> at 20 yards.


Thanks Alan, I didn't realize it was a single cam bow when I asked the question.


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## Ardmoreff

Marking for reference. Great stuff here!


----------



## Ron213

marked for later. great post!!


----------



## buckjunkey

Good stuff hear. Marked for later use.


----------



## Ardmoreff

I know you guys can help. I've paper tuned my bow. I can move the arrow rest both ways with little improvement. Im still getting left tear on paper tuning. I feel like my form is consistent. My set up. Mathews DXT 26.5" @ 60lbs. 26" Easton 400 axis with 100 gr field point. I tried bare shaft tuning. Grouping pretty good except bare shaft kicked out left. Here's some pictures. Do I need to worry about this or not.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Ardmoreff said:


> I know you guys can help. I've paper tuned my bow. I can move the arrow rest both ways with little improvement. Im still getting left tear on paper tuning. I feel like my form is consistent. My set up. Mathews DXT 26.5" @ 60lbs. 26" Easton 400 axis with 100 gr field point. I tried bare shaft tuning. Grouping pretty good except bare shaft kicked out left. Here's some pictures. Do I need to worry about this or not.
> View attachment 1425720
> View attachment 1425721


What distance?


----------



## Ardmoreff

15 yards with bare shaft and fletched arrows. 5 yards with paper tuning. Just want to shoot as best as possible


----------



## dillio67

I just wanted to thank N&B for his help on this process i hit a stumbling and we got it figured out.Here is my 50yd groups after bareshafting...now to group tune!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Ardmoreff said:


> 15 yards with bare shaft and fletched arrows. 5 yards with paper tuning. Just want to shoot as best as possible


Shoot at LEAST TWO bareshafts.

If the two bareshafts are not grouping together,
slapping together...

then,
you know you have some work to do,
on shooting technique.

If the foam target is not strapped down to a table,
then,
the angle on the bareshaft could be due to the target rotating on impact.

I would focus MORE on the bareshaft point of impact.


----------



## nuts&bolts

dillio67 said:


> I just wanted to thank N&B for his help on this process i hit a stumbling and we got it figured out.Here is my 50yd groups after bareshafting...now to group tune!
> View attachment 1426023


EXCELLENT.
Nicely done.

Your group tuning should go very quickly.


----------



## Ardmoreff

Nuts&Bolts,

I will strap my target down this evening to rule that out. In that picture there are two bare shafts and two fletched arrows. They are touching at the point of impact except the last fletched arrow. I will also try hand positioning tonight to rule out hand torque. Thanks again. Does twisting the top two cables work with Mathews DXT? Or is that for when bare shafts point of impact is different from fletched arrows. Also do you have a website or book out to buy?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Ardmoreff said:


> Nuts&Bolts,
> 
> I will strap my target down this evening to rule that out. In that picture there are two bare shafts and two fletched arrows. They are touching at the point of impact except the last fletched arrow. I will also try hand positioning tonight to rule out hand torque. Thanks again. Does twisting the top two cables work with Mathews DXT? Or is that for when bare shafts point of impact is different from fletched arrows. Also do you have a website or book out to buy?


No website.

"Book" is free.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457&page=7

Sticky copy is 150+ pages.

Updates to the "book",
send your email address to BowTechCDR.

Just added a new section,
so you can get that from BowTechCDR.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Ardmoreff said:


> Nuts&Bolts,
> 
> I will strap my target down this evening to rule that out. In that picture there are two bare shafts and two fletched arrows. They are touching at the point of impact except the last fletched arrow. I will also try hand positioning tonight to rule out hand torque. Thanks again. Does twisting the top two cables work with Mathews DXT? Or is that for when bare shafts point of impact is different from fletched arrows. Also do you have a website or book out to buy?


Yup,
strap down the target to your table.
Weight down the table so the table does not move.

Shoot at least 2 bareshafts
to make sure your shooting technique is consistent.

If the bareshafts are missing RIGHT of the fletched arrows..

adjust the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg, a twist shorter
and that should clean up your fletched arrow and bareshaft arrow flight.

We are tuning the SIDEWAYS nock travel,
when you shorten the LEFT side buss cable leg.


----------



## Mystro

As a self proclaimed "Micro tuning /bare shaft tuning super freak", I would like to add to the threads content on the merits of Bare shaft /Micro tuning. Shooting the nock off a fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 35 yards......( I also caught it on video)


----------



## nuts&bolts

Mystro said:


> As a self proclaimed "Micro tuning /bare shaft tuning super freak", I would like to add to the threads content on the merits of Bare shaft /Micro tuning. Shooting the nock off a fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 35 yards......( I also caught it on video)



NICELY done.

Keep up the GREAT shooting.


----------



## Ardmoreff

Nuts&Bolts, 

Thanks for the info. I will print off the book. I'm sure that will get me fixed up. Thanks again


----------



## flyinghunter

so if you have a system like the prime shift and bareshaft tuning which cables do you add or subtract twists when trying to get the bareshafts and fletched to group?


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> so if you have a system like the prime shift and bareshaft tuning which cables do you add or subtract twists when trying to get the bareshafts and fletched to group?



Saw your other thread.

STEP 1: Use a table for the bag target

STEP 2: Use a ratchet strap and strap down the bag target to the table, so the bag target cannot move/rotate

STEP 3: DROP the draw weight to 65 lbs
(your arrows are too WEAK...the Easton Tuning Guide advice you mentioned is for FINGERS shooters and does NOT apply to a compound release shooter) 

STEP 4: shorten the draw length 1/2-inch.


----------



## Kstigall

Did some bare shafting with my newly acquired Supra ME yesterday evening. I've fooled with bare shafting for decades but the only bow I really had "zeroed" in was a Martin Cougar Mag and Martin S4 Mag both with Nitrous-X cams which are no brainers to tune perfectly.

After reading N & B's stuff the urge to tweak out the Supra was renewed. I'm a "tweaker" at heart! Of course seeing some shots hitting worse than I thought they should have this past weekend, first 3D shoot with the Supra, helped motivate me especially since I'm going to the ASA Classic this week. I wasn't able to do what I think is a "complete" tune up but I was busting nocks at 17.5 yards with bare - fletched shafts after some yoke twisting and cam timing. Bare shafts were occasionally low and this will be dealt with this evening. Finished with two 2" 6 arrow groups at 44 yards. Noticeably less "left-right" slop. Bow held on target better but I still feel there's room for improving the stabber weight distribution and back bar angle. Haven't had much success finding the sweet spot with the stabbers and became convinced it was at least partly a tuning issue. I'm going to tighten the bottom limb somewhat and see if the bit low bare shaft goes away. I'm suspecting the hold will improve with a bit tighter bottom limb as well.

Thanks N & B...............


----------



## Lazerbeans

Awesome thread:thumbs_up


----------



## Fury90flier

How necessary is it to have the target elevated? I don't have anything, that I can think of, to get my target at "collar bone" level...will that affect anything?

Real quick...
I'm shooting a 2011 shadowcat binary cam with finger release. My bare shaft @ 20 yard hits about 5" to the left of my fletched arrows. The best I can tell is that the vertical is fine but horizontal is the issue.

Am I understanding correctly that it's a spine issue. Grouping of fletched arrows is fine by my standards. I can get fletching sometimes...just not that good to do it all the time.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> How necessary is it to have the target elevated? I don't have anything, that I can think of, to get my target at "collar bone" level...will that affect anything?
> 
> Real quick...
> I'm shooting a 2011 shadowcat binary cam with finger release. My bare shaft @ 20 yard hits about 5" to the left of my fletched arrows. The best I can tell is that the vertical is fine but horizontal is the issue.
> 
> Am I understanding correctly that it's a spine issue. Grouping of fletched arrows is fine by my standards. I can get fletching sometimes...just not that good to do it all the time.


1) if you are a RIGHT HANDED *fingers* shooter..then, YES, bareshafts hitting left of the fletched is a STIFF arrow reaction
for a FINGERS compound shooter and for a recurve shooter (cuz they shoot fingers as well).


Sooo,
boost point weight
and/or
boost draw weight.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> How necessary is it to have the target elevated? I don't have anything, that I can think of, to get my target at "collar bone" level...will that affect anything?
> 
> Real quick...
> I'm shooting a 2011 shadowcat binary cam with finger release. My bare shaft @ 20 yard hits about 5" to the left of my fletched arrows. The best I can tell is that the vertical is fine but horizontal is the issue.
> 
> Am I understanding correctly that it's a spine issue. Grouping of fletched arrows is fine by my standards. I can get fletching sometimes...just not that good to do it all the time.


Getting the bullseye at COLLAR BONE height, reduces any problems from shooting posture,
so your results will be more consistent.

You don't have any boxes to put underneath your target bag/block?

A chair, and then several boxes on top of the chair, and then your target bag/block?


----------



## flyinghunter

hey nuts and bolts, ok i will try and get 28.5in cams but if i cant do that for awhile what your saying is my arrows are too weak. what can i do to make them stiffer. i was getting 6in difference horizontally with my bareshafts at 65lbs. i turned it up cause i thought my arrows were too stiff?! so i should turn it down to 60lbs? i guess the only way to make them stiffer is shorter? or remove the 40gr of weights at the tip?

thanks for the help!

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> hey nuts and bolts, ok i will try and get 28.5in cams but if i cant do that for awhile what your saying is my arrows are too weak. what can i do to make them stiffer. i was getting 6in difference horizontally with my bareshafts at 65lbs. i turned it up cause i thought my arrows were too stiff?! so i should turn it down to 60lbs? i guess the only way to make them stiffer is shorter? or remove the 40gr of weights at the tip?
> 
> thanks for the help!
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2


Yup,
STEP 1: take off the extra 40 grains of weights from the insert

STEP 2: try less and less draw weight to stiffen arrow reaction (groups should tighten up noticeably at long range)


----------



## flyinghunter

great, will try that and let you know. im still not sure if my dl is too long or not it feels ok but as you stated it doesnt neccesarily mean its right for me.

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2


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## Fury90flier

nuts&bolts said:


> Getting the bullseye at COLLAR BONE height, reduces any problems from shooting posture,
> so your results will be more consistent.
> 
> You don't have any boxes to put underneath your target bag/block?
> 
> A chair, and then several boxes on top of the chair, and then your target bag/block?


I might be able to but it's a PIA. I have to shoot on the side of the house but the table I could use is in the back yard...too hard to move and the distance is too short for bareshafting. I'll see what I can come up with.

Now, as to bareshaft hitting left 5"...is that a spine issue? 

shooting 60# at 29" and PSE stealth hunter 200's...30.5"


----------



## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> I might be able to but it's a PIA. I have to shoot on the side of the house but the table I could use is in the back yard...too hard to move and the distance is too short for bareshafting. I'll see what I can come up with.
> 
> Now, as to bareshaft hitting left 5"...is that a spine issue?
> 
> shooting 60# at 29" and PSE stealth hunter 200's...30.5"




Since you shoot FINGERS...
if you are a RIGHT handed shooter...

and the bareshaft is hitting LEFT of your fletched arrows...


IF you have a plunger,
reduce the plunger tension...

INCREASE the point weight (HEAVIER field points)
INCREASE the draw weight.


----------



## Fury90flier

no plunger here, have the timberdoodle v1. I know the spring tension can be adjusted but it's very low as it is. So the first thing I did was change points. Well simply going with a heavier point helped quite a bit. I went up from 85 to 125 and that did seemed to do the trick. First few shots with the 85's were left as predicted then the next go around with the 125's put the bareshafts around the right area. More focus on anchor and grip put the almost on top of each other...actually a couple touching (fluke, I can't shoot that well) 

still much tuning on the archer here but that helped a bunch.

thanks for the help.

Great thread by the way. Can't wait till I can shoot well enough to take advantage of fine tuning for longer ranges....maybe next year.


----------



## Ardmoreff

Nuts&Bolts

Your the Man. Read your guide twice on my phone and finally got it printed off (at work). You have saved me so much headache with that guide. I used the modified French tuning to get my center shot. 10-30 yards on the tape. Hardly any fish tail too. Also changed my grip to the one in the guide and worked on my form. Feels a little different, but works a lot better. Next thing I'll mess with the bare shaft tuning to get it dialed in. Who knew I was doing it wrong all these years. Thanks again and keep up the good work.


----------



## Slippyshaft

Tagged for future reading.


----------



## flyinghunter

Well im at a loss, took the 40gr weights out of the arrow inserts, turned the bow down to about 60lbs. went out and shot 3 fletched and 2 bareshafts at 10 yards and they hit in the same group with bareshafts just to the right. i went to 20 yards and they hit a good 6 in to the left of the fletched again. i decided to walk back tune to try and get the centreshot with fletched arrows. after a few rounds from 10,20 and 30 yards i got a straight line. so i wanted to see where the bareshaft was hitting at 20 yards, and it came off the bow sideways, hit the left and about 5ft short of target and was gone. frustrated i went to try and start from square one and papertune a fletched shaft. about a 2-3in tear to the right. began moving the rest to the left as easton arrow guide stated for release compound shooters, and ended up having the rest so far out to the left the arrow tip was a half inch to the left of the string!!!! and was only getting a bullet hole one every three arrows!!! my form is consistent, anchoring at the same spot, neck not bending to string. i checked arrow clearance and not seeing any lipstick on the rest or strings. im at a loss and im not sure if i have the wrong arrow spine. i wanted to shoot this bow around 65-70# and was looking at the 5575 gt but was told to go on the stiffer side...... I NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!! If i cut my arrows to 29" instead of 28" that should make the arrow less stiff right? i dont have access to lighter points and i have 12 7595 GT XTHUNTER PROS waiting to be cut once i have this figured out and wonder if i need to go to the 5575???!!!

any help would be most appreciated!!!!!


----------



## Fury90flier

I don't want to contradict N&B here but from what you've said, personally I'd say the arrows you have are too stiff and you need to add more weight to the tip. Heavier tips will mean more flex upon release effectively making a shaft that has more flex...weaker. Maybe instead of removing weight you need to add the weight back and increase 5#, if you can. Then start over in tuning.


----------



## Jette

Does anyone have full instructions on this type of tuning?


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> Well im at a loss,
> took the 40gr weights out of the arrow inserts,
> turned the bow down to about 60lbs.
> 
> *went out and shot 3 fletched and 2 bareshafts at 10 yards and
> they hit in the same group with bareshafts just to the right. *
> 
> *i went to 20 yards and
> they hit a good 6 in to the left of the fletched again. *
> 
> i decided to walk back tune to try and
> get the centreshot with fletched arrows.
> 
> after a few rounds from 10,20 and 30 yards
> i got a straight line.
> 
> *so i wanted to see where the bareshaft was hitting at 20 yards, and
> it came off the bow sideways,
> hit the left and about 5ft short of target and was gone. *
> 
> frustrated i went to try and
> start from square one and papertune a fletched shaft.
> 
> *about a 2-3in tear to the right.*
> 
> began moving the rest to the left as easton arrow guide stated for release compound shooters,
> and ended up having the rest so far out to the left
> *the arrow tip was a half inch to the left of the string!!!! *
> 
> and was only getting a bullet hole one every three arrows!!!
> 
> my form is consistent, anchoring at the same spot,
> neck not bending to string.
> 
> i checked arrow clearance and
> not seeing any lipstick on the rest or strings.
> 
> im at a loss and im not sure if i have the wrong arrow spine.
> 
> i wanted to shoot this bow around 65-70# and
> was looking at the 5575 gt but was told to go on the stiffer side......
> 
> I NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If i cut my arrows to 29" instead of 28" that should make the arrow less stiff right?
> 
> i dont have access to lighter points and i have 12 7595 GT XTHUNTER PROS waiting to be cut once i have this figured out and wonder if i need to go to the 5575???!!!
> 
> any help would be most appreciated!!!!!




.
*i went to 20 yards and 
they (the BARESHAFTS) hit a good 6 in to the left of the fletched again. *.

*about a 2-3in tear to the right.....(PAPER TUNING)* 

*the arrow tip was a half inch to the left of the string!!!! *.



Simple test.

STEP 1: re-adjust the arrow rest so that your arrow is pointed STRAIGHT AHEAD... and not 1/2-inch to the left.
............re-adjust the arrow rest centershot position so that the arrow is pointed in the same direction as the FRONT STABILIZER

STEP 2: hang a spool of string in front of a target.

STEP 3: step back 5 feet.

STEP 4: Fire a fletched arrow at the string.

STEP 6: TWEAK the sights pins windage left or right, until you get this result,
shooting a fletched arrow at 5 feet away.




















KEEP adjusting the SIGHT PINS WINDAGE ONLY...
do NOT adjust the arrow rest,
when shooting at only 5 feet away.

ADJUST THE SIGHT PINS WINDAGE ONLY until you can get the FLETCHED ARROW to hit the string,
shooting at only 5 FEET AWAY.



WHEN the fletched arrow is hitting the string...

now,
shoot a BARESHAFT arrow
at the string,
from only 5 feet away.


Since you are getting a RIGHT paper tear....

let's see if the BARESHAFT misses the string to the LEFT of the string,
when shooting only 5 FEET away.

If the BARESHAFT misses the string to the LEFT of the string,
each time you shoot a bareshaft....only 5 FEET AWAY...

(do this 10 times in a row)...

then,
you need to INCREASE your draw length....

the fix is NOT to move the arrow rest LEFT...(this is a band aid solution)....

the fix is to increase your draw length.

Continue to increase your draw length,
until the BARESHAFT hits the string,
shooting only 5 feet away.


You want this result.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BARESHAFT misses LEFT of the string,
shooting only 5 FEET AWAY for a right handed shooter?

FIX = INCREASE draw length



BARESHAFT misses RIGHT of the string,
shooting only 5 FEET AWAY for a right handed shooter?

FIX = DECREASE draw length

ADJUST your draw length setting on your bow...
before you do anything more to your arrows.

When a bareshaft and the fletched arrow can hit a string, hanging down in front of a target,
shooting only 5 feet away...

then,
and only then,
is your bow DL setting correct.


Shooting only 5 feet away with a bareshaft,
it is NOT the arrow spine rating...

shooting only 5 feet away with a bareshaft,
is is NOT the arrow rest position,
cuz we adjusted the SIGHT PINS windage,
so that the FLETCHED ARROW is hitting the string...


shooting only 5 feet away with a bareshaft,
it is COMPLETELY the release side forearm alignment.

If the bow DL setting is TOO SHORT,
then,
your RELEASE SIDE FOREARM is pointed LEFT of the target (hanging down string)
and
this is why you get the RIGHT PAPER TEAR
and the bareshaft landing LEFT of the string.

If the bow DL setting is TOO LONG,
then,
your RELEASE SIDE FOREARM is pointed RIGHT of the target (hanging down string)
and
this is why you WOULD get a LEFT paper tear,
and the bareshaft landing RIGHT of the string.


So,
work the draw length setting on the bow,
work the shooting posture (more open foot position..more open shoulder position)
work the shooting posture (more neutral foot position...more neutral shoulder position)
until
you can get a bareshaft
and
you can get a fletched arrow
to hit the string,
shooting only at 5 feet away.


----------



## flyinghunter

ok, well first off nuts and bolts, i feel like i gotta pay you!!! you have been most helpfull!!! So i put a piece of string up on the target and moved the gang windage on the sight to get the fletched arrow hitting the string, i couldnt split it yet but its moving the string and hitting just behind it. I took a bareshaft from 5ft away and right off the bat was only hitting about 1/8-1/4in to the left of the string, after 10 shots it hit in the same spot or slightly touching the string every time! so this is a little bit of fresh air even if it is only 5ft away lol. so my question is with draw length specific cams cams being a prime shift, do i need to worry about that 1/8-1/4in or is my draw length ok. i had 29.5in cams on it when i bought it and i know that its not always what feels the best but it felt really off. can i twist any of the cables to get it more consistant or should i just leave it? and once this stage is done what would you recommend based off the fact that my arrows may be too stiff? I was thinking a longer arrow wouldnt be bad because i would like to have my broadhead at the front of the riser.

Thanks again N+B, your a life saver!

here is the picture of the fletched and bareshaft with the string.
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj614/flyinghunter1/2012-08-01201721.jpg


----------



## flyinghunter

ttt


----------



## flyinghunter

Well i just did a fletching clearance test with foot powder this time and again not a speck of powder on cables or rest. So i guess its a set-up, form, arrow issue....


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> ok, well first off nuts and bolts, i feel like i gotta pay you!!! you have been most helpfull!!! So i put a piece of string up on the target and moved the gang windage on the sight to get the fletched arrow hitting the string, i couldnt split it yet but its moving the string and hitting just behind it. I took a bareshaft from 5ft away and right off the bat was only hitting about 1/8-1/4in to the left of the string, after 10 shots it hit in the same spot or slightly touching the string every time! so this is a little bit of fresh air even if it is only 5ft away lol. so my question is with draw length specific cams cams being a prime shift, do i need to worry about that 1/8-1/4in or is my draw length ok. i had 29.5in cams on it when i bought it and i know that its not always what feels the best but it felt really off. can i twist any of the cables to get it more consistant or should i just leave it? and once this stage is done what would you recommend based off the fact that my arrows may be too stiff? I was thinking a longer arrow wouldnt be bad because i would like to have my broadhead at the front of the riser.
> 
> Thanks again N+B, your a life saver!
> 
> here is the picture of the fletched and bareshaft with the string.
> http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj614/flyinghunter1/2012-08-01201721.jpg


I would try a SLIGHTLY LONGER d-loop,
if you are a right handed shooter.

Take some needle nose pliers
and STRETCH your current d-loop a SKOSH longer,
and that will dial in your bareshaft
to hit the string at 5 feet.

When the bareshaft and the fletched are hitting the string at 5 FEET,
then,
we try 10 feet.

You can also affect where the bareshaft hits by experimenting with shooting posture.

If at 10 feet,
the fletched is hitting the string or bullseye,
but
the bareshaft is missing slightly LEFT...

just open up your shooting posture a little bit,
right foot/shoe slightly FORWARD
left shoe slightly behind the tip of the right shoe.

This will angle your shoulders a little bit more open,
meaning that the bow shoulder will have a skosh MORE room...bow shoulder will be slightly AWAY from the arrow, when at full draw.

When the shoulders are SLIGHTLY open,
then,
the bow hand to tip of your release elbow measurement...what I call the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE
is a little bit shorter...

so,
with the shoulders slightly OPEN,
then,
the release forearm is MORE ALIGNED directly behind the arrow
and
this reduces the SIDEWAYS pull on the bowstring...

when we get the release forearm lined up correctly BEHIND the arrow,
then,
the SIDEWAYS pull from your release forearm follow through... is CLEANER
we get the bowstring flying STRAIGHT at the target with ZERO sideways motion...

and
the proof is when the BARESHAFT hits with the fletched arrow.


So,
try this shooting at a string at 10 feet,
and work on shooting posture.


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> ok, well first off nuts and bolts, i feel like i gotta pay you!!! you have been most helpfull!!! So i put a piece of string up on the target and moved the gang windage on the sight to get the fletched arrow hitting the string, i couldnt split it yet but its moving the string and hitting just behind it. I took a bareshaft from 5ft away and right off the bat was only hitting about 1/8-1/4in to the left of the string, after 10 shots it hit in the same spot or slightly touching the string every time! so this is a little bit of fresh air even if it is only 5ft away lol. so my question is with draw length specific cams cams being a prime shift, do i need to worry about that 1/8-1/4in or is my draw length ok. i had 29.5in cams on it when i bought it and i know that its not always what feels the best but it felt really off. can i twist any of the cables to get it more consistant or should i just leave it? and once this stage is done what would you recommend based off the fact that my arrows may be too stiff? I was thinking a longer arrow wouldnt be bad because i would like to have my broadhead at the front of the riser.
> 
> Thanks again N+B, your a life saver!
> 
> here is the picture of the fletched and bareshaft with the string.
> http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj614/flyinghunter1/2012-08-01201721.jpg


Try shooting at 10 feet,
and experiment with opening up the shooting posture,
and
with the d-loop slightly LONGER.

When we get the d-loop length correct (slightly longer)
and
we find the BEST shooting posture...

then,
the bareshaft and fletched arrow will slap at 10 feet.

When you have 10 feet locked down,
then,
switch to a bullseye at 20 feet,
and fire a group of fletched arrows
and
at least TWO bareshafts...

and try to experiment with shooting posture
until you get the two bareshafts and the fletched arrows to hit together.

When you have 20 feet locked down,
then,
goto 10 yards,
and continue to work on shooting posture,
to get fletched and at LEAST two bareshafts to hit together.

When field points and bareshafts are slapping at 10 yards...

then,
your shooting posture is at the best position,
and
then...

see what happens with your broadheads.


----------



## flyinghunter

ok sounds good, will give that a try over the next few days, one question is my arrows and weight. should i just leave them and my draw weight alone. i would like to try and get an arrow that is best for my rig with a little more draw length, i wish i had ontarget2 but i got a mac and cant get it.


----------



## nuts&bolts

flyinghunter said:


> ok sounds good, will give that a try over the next few days, one question is my arrows and weight. should i just leave them and my draw weight alone. i would like to try and get an arrow that is best for my rig with a little more draw length, i wish i had ontarget2 but i got a mac and cant get it.


For now,
I would master the 5 feet shooting distance,
and tweak the d-loop length a skosh LONGER
and
open up the shoulders angle position,
to get the bareshaft and fletched smacking the string.

Then,
master the 10 feet shooting distance,
and get fletched and bareshaft smacking together...

work the shooting posture (probably need the feet and shoulders slightly more open).

Then,
work on 10 yards.
Smack fletched and bareshaft together. This will require focus on a consistent bow hand position,
and will require the bow hand to be completely relaxed, for each shot.

Then,
work on 15 yards,
and try to get the shooting technique SOLID,
so that bareshaft and fletched smack together.

At 15 yards,
experiment with more or less draw weight...

experiment with heavier or lighter point weight,
in order to see what combo (draw weight, point weight, and shooting posture)
allows you to get bareshafts and FLETCHED arrows to smack together.


When you find the combo (draw weight, point weight, and shooting posture)
that works for 15 yards....group of fletched arrows and at least TWO BARESHAFTS...all smacking together....

then,
try again at 20 yards.

BARESHAFTS missing LEFT of the fletched arrow group....for a RIGHT HANDED SHOOTER,
usually means we need to bump up the "total spread distance"...

which could be a slightly longer d-loop
which could be tightening up the buss cable (few more twists to shrink ATA...which bumps up DL a skosh).


----------



## flyinghunter

ok will post the results in a few days, unfortunatly for me the d loop that is on the bow is the last that i had, and i live in the middle of no where so i wont be able to length it at all for now but will work on form and posture. maybe will try and stretch the loop a little if i can. thanks again.


----------



## Big Rack Buck

Now that's what I'm talking about! I have always relied on perfect bullet holes through paper and have had pretty good success, but this is exactly what i have been looking for! I have to admit I tend to be a little anal...I mean particular about the details so this is right up my alley. After all none of us can repeat perfect form every time for every arrow, so why not put yourself in position to have the best chance at making the best shot possible. That way when you do exhibit human error and torque, you may only miss your aim point by 3" at 40 yds instead of 10". I have to agree with Buckhunter1, I spend an inordinate amount of time and money shooting my bow...I want it to be right! I think if most of us would spend 1/100th of the time setting our bows up properly from the get go, we would really enjoy the other 99% a whole lot more! Thanks Wolbear & Nuts & Bolts!
Nuts & Bolts, anything specific for the Hoyt Carbon Bows we should know about when approaching tuning? I have a 2012 Carbon Element RKT. I love A.T.
Thanks Jason...


----------



## bryman021

wow I love all this great info, it has really helped me with working on and tuning my own equipment!! i can't afford to take my stuff to a shop and like doing it myself anyway. I feel I get a better understanding of everything if I try it myself, even if I make mistakes at least then I know what not to do also!!! 

Also tagging for future reference.
Thanks all who contributed to this thread!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Big Rack Buck said:


> Now that's what I'm talking about! I have always relied on perfect bullet holes through paper and have had pretty good success, but this is exactly what i have been looking for! I have to admit I tend to be a little anal...I mean particular about the details so this is right up my alley. After all none of us can repeat perfect form every time for every arrow, so why not put yourself in position to have the best chance at making the best shot possible. That way when you do exhibit human error and torque, you may only miss your aim point by 3" at 40 yds instead of 10". I have to agree with Buckhunter1, I spend an inordinate amount of time and money shooting my bow...I want it to be right! I think if most of us would spend 1/100th of the time setting our bows up properly from the get go, we would really enjoy the other 99% a whole lot more! Thanks Wolbear & Nuts & Bolts!
> Nuts & Bolts, anything specific for the Hoyt Carbon Bows we should know about when approaching tuning? I have a 2012 Carbon Element RKT. I love A.T.
> Thanks Jason...


Hello Jason:

Follow the steps listed above.

Start with hanging a spool of string in front of a target block/bag,
and shoot from 5 feet with a fletched arrow and
tweak the sight pins windage, until you can touch the string or even better,
split the string fibers (spool of Dacron B50 works really well for this cuz it is loosely woven).

Then, try with a bareshaft...at 5 feet.

If the bareshaft is repeatably missing off to the right by a tiny amount,
then,
dial in some top cam lean to the left...
(shorten the left side buss cable leg a half twist or a full twist)
(lengthen the right side buss cable leg a half twist or a full twist)...

assuming you are a right handed shooter.


The carbon risers are extremely stiff,
and combined with the roller guard...

I think this is why we need to shorten the left side buss cable,
to get the SIDEWAYS nock travel down to ZERO.


----------



## ArcheryRoad

marked


----------



## nuts&bolts

*The KITCHEN SINK method.....*

The KITCHEN SINK METHOD...

Slightly re-worded.

*STEP by STEP Procedure to...

TUNE SIGHT PINS WINDAGE
and
ARROW REST CENTERSHOT
and
SIDEWAYS NOCK TRAVEL ON THE BOWSTRING
and
BOW DL SETTING.....

THE "KITCHEN SINK" METHOD.*


I have a combo method that checks:

a) draw length setting on the bow
b) arrow rest centershot position
c) sight pins windage position
d) top cam/top axle levelling (fix/check sideways nock travel).


*STEP 1:*

So,
hang a spool of string or any string with a weight on the end,
in front of a target.

Step back 5 feet.
Fire a fletched arrow at the string.
Tweak the sight pins windage a skosh left...a skosh right,
until the fletched arrow TOUCHES or even SPLITS the string material.

You should get this result.




















Then,
we goto the next stage.

Step back 5 feet,
and try again with a bareshaft (arrow with no vanes).

You should get this result.




















If you are a RIGHT HANDED shooter
and
the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the string...


*STEP 2:*

Press your bow
and shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
and lengthen the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
and fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...

the bareshaft point of impact should MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...

repeat the shortening of the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (ADD)
and
repeat the lengthening of the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (REMOVE)

*STEP 3:*

IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT CHANGE...
IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT STAYS OFF TO THE RIGHT...

THEN WE HAVE A DRAW LENGTH PROBLEM....ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION
cuz your elbow is too far back
cuz your elbow is behind your head
instead of DIRECTLY behind the arrow...in line behind the arrow

so,
when the elbow is BEHIND YOUR HEAD, 
your release forearm is pointed OFF TO THE RIGHT,
and
your release forearm pulls the bowstring sideways (FAMOUS LEFT PAPER TEAR for right handed shooters)
and
when we have a nock left paper tear,
cuz the bowstring is pulled sideways to the LEFT,
cuz your forearm is pointed off to the right,
then...

the bareshaft goes whereever your forearm is pointed
and the bareshaft misses sideways to the RIGHT of the string.


So if STEP 2 (buss cable leg tuning) has ZERO EFFECT,
we must goto 

*STEP 4.*

SHORTEN the bow DL setting.

Now,
you might need to shorten the bow DL setting a complete 1/2 inch (new module).

Now,
you might need to shorten the bow DL setting less than a complete module replacement...

maybe you need to shorten the bow DL setting only 1/8th inch....maybe only 1/4-inch.

HOW do you shorten a bow DL setting in-between module sizes?...less than 1/2-inch?

FIND the bottom of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops) and REMOVE twists to INCREASE ATA
and the bow DL will shorten. As you continue to UNTWIST the buss cable, the ATA continues to grow
and the bow DL will continue to shorten.

Keep tweaking the buss cable LONGER, until the bareshaft hits the string, like this...




















So,
stay at 5 feet
and fire fletched arrows at the string
and
fire bare shaft arrows at the string
until both fletched and bareshaft hit the string.


When firing fletched arrows at the string (tweak the sight pins windage)...to adjust
when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable (bottom of the buss cable to make LARGE adjustments for point of impact....missing RIGHT by inches)
when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable legs (shorten left side leg when missing right of the string by tiny amounts IF YOU ARE a RH shooter).


Soon,
your fletched arrows will be touching the string.

Soon,
your bareshafts will also touch the string.

*STEP 5*

The final half of MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING.


Goto any CONVENIENT longer distance...anything longer than 5 feet.
Might be 10 feet.
Might be 19 feet.
Might be 14 yards.
Might be 20 yards.
Might be 60 yards.

Of course the LONGER the better,
but even 19 feet is better than nothing.


Fire fletched arrow groups at a bullseye.
ONLY ADJUST THE ARROW REST, when shooting the convenient LONG RANGE distance.
The goal is to get the arrow group CENTERED around the bullseye.

ARROW GROUP missing LEFT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly right.
ARROW GROUP missing RIGHT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly left....like driving a car.

TWEAK THE ARROW REST to get the arrow group CENTERED around the LONG DISTANCE bullseye.
Whatever convenient LONG DISTANCE is available to you.

Then,

STEP 6:

Repeat shooting the fletched arrow at the string at 5 FEET.
We want to touch or SPLIT the string.

Might need to MICRO ADJUSt the sight pins windage...this is a fine tuning adjustment.
SPLIT the string fibers at 5 feet. BE PICKY. EACH adjustment we make, we get a tiny bit CLOSER to perfect.


REPEAT STEP 5

LONG RANGE arrow groups at a bullseye.
MICRO adjust the arrow rest to get the arrow group perfectly CENTERED around your bullseye.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

You get the idea.

EACH cycle of step 6, then step 5...

maybe the first cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/8th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/8th-inch...

and then,
maybe the second cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/16th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/16th-inch...

and then,
maybe the third cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/32nd-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/32nd-inch...

and then,
maybe the 4th cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/64th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/64th-inch...

you get the idea.

You decide how many cycles you want to try.

EACH cycle is a smaller and smaller adjustment.

You decide how TIGHT you want your groups.


----------



## always

n&b
thanks for keeping up with this thread. This is totally changing the way I think about archery. I have 2 questions
question # 1;RH invasion 58lbs 27.5"dl bullet holes with fletched and bare. And bare shafts hitting with fletched at 25 yrds but the bares are nock left / in the target. Is this something I should be concerned with. They are nock left bout an 1.5" over the length of the shaft. The cams already have a little pre-lean now. With arrow on left side of cam it hits the string bout 7" from axle.
question# 2 RH Retribution VTR cams, same specs. bullet holes thru paper but bares hitting 3" low of fletched. how do I fix this.
Thanks


----------



## flyinghunter

Is it possible to yoke tune a G5 Prime Shift for bareshafts to group with fletched? I have done the modified french tuning, and bareshaft is touching the string or about 1/4 off. and i can get the bareshafts to hit within the group to 10 yards but after that they hit way left. no matter what i do i cant seem to get them to get any closer.but fletched shafts when form is good and make a good shot they group well out to 40 yards right now.


----------



## BowhunterCliffy

flyinghunter said:


> Is it possible to yoke tune a G5 Prime Shift for bareshafts to group with fletched? I have done the modified french tuning, and bareshaft is touching the string or about 1/4 off. and i can get the bareshafts to hit within the group to 10 yards but after that they hit way left. no matter what i do i cant seem to get them to get any closer.but fletched shafts when form is good and make a good shot they group well out to 40 yards right now.


I had same problem. I bare shaft tuned. Shoot fletched and bare shafts and keep moving rest toward bare shaft group in small amounts until both groups hit same spot. Then I shot thru paper, nearly perfect out to 10 yards. Then I shot broad head and they now hit with fletched out to 50 yards.


----------



## BowhunterCliffy

Cannot yoke tune g5 shift. No yoke.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BowhunterCliffy said:


> Cannot yoke tune g5 shift. No yoke.


The goal of tuning the yoke is to adjust the angle of the top axle..

for a RH shooter, most times, we need to lower the left edge of the top axle,
to reduce SIDEWAYS nock travel.

So,
if you have NO YOKE cable..

then,
the only way we can tune SIDEWAYS nock travel
is to adjust the bow draw length setting.

If your bareshafts are flying RIGHT of your fletched arrows..at 5 feet..
then,
we can shorten the bow DL setting,
to bring your release forearm MORE in line, directly behind the arrow.

If you need a small adjustment,
you can INCREASE ATA slightly
by untwisting the bottom of the buss cable.

AS the ATA gets longer,
the draw length shrinks slightly.


If you need a larger adjustment,
then,
you may need to drop the DL 1/2-inch.


----------



## bigmo101

What if the bareshafts are flying high or low?


----------



## BowhunterCliffy

bigmo101 said:


> What if the bareshafts are flying high or low?


Change nock height or rest height.


----------



## nuts&bolts

bigmo101 said:


> What if the bareshafts are flying high or low?


Hello bigmo101:

Assuming that with the bow at rest...

your arrow rest has the arrow shaft at the SAME height as the two arrow rest holes...
at this point, I WOULD LEAVE THE ARROW REST HEIGHT ALONE.

I also leave the d-loop position alone. Once the d-loop position is tied on, I NEVER TOUCH IT AGAIN.

ALL changes
are made to the cables
to change cam sync...

cuz you have much much more control.

So,
*if you have bareshafts flying HIGH...*

if you have a hybrid cam bow (bowstring, buss cable, control cable)...
then,
ADD TWISTS to shorten the control cable...

if you have a single cam bow (bowstring, buss cable)
try ADDING twists to the bottom buss cable end loop.


----------



## BowhunterCliffy

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello bigmo101:
> 
> Assuming that with the bow at rest...
> 
> your arrow rest has the arrow shaft at the SAME height as the two arrow rest holes...
> at this point, I WOULD LEAVE THE ARROW REST HEIGHT ALONE.
> 
> I also leave the d-loop position alone. Once the d-loop position is tied on, I NEVER TOUCH IT AGAIN.
> 
> ALL changes
> are made to the cables
> to change cam sync...
> 
> cuz you have much much more control.
> 
> So,
> *if you have bareshafts flying HIGH...*
> 
> if you have a hybrid cam bow (bowstring, buss cable, control cable)...
> then,
> ADD TWISTS to shorten the control cable...
> 
> if you have a single cam bow (bowstring, buss cable)
> try ADDING twists to the bottom buss cable end loop.


Yeah, do this. Forget what I said about changing nock or rest height.
Nuts and bolts knows what he is talking about.


----------



## bginvestor

Alan,

What is your definition of left side and right side? Facing the front of the bow or back? Thx


----------



## bginvestor

Alan.

Awesome, awesome post! Thanks so much for the great information.

You know what would complete this is to have a break down for the following cam systems: dual cam, hybrid, binary, single, cam and half,etc.

This will make it much easier understand for folks including me. The tweaking would be slightly different depending on cam system. Thx


----------



## bowtechfanatic1

later


----------



## bigmo101

What about a binary cam? For high and low? Just twist the cable for the bottom cam?


----------



## nuts&bolts

bginvestor said:


> Alan,
> 
> What is your definition of left side and right side? Facing the front of the bow or back? Thx


When the front stabilizer is installed, and you are behind the bow...looking at the target...

the left buss cable leg is on your left...

the right buss cable leg is on your right.


So,
if you are shooting the fletched arrow, at the string just 5 feet away,
and the fletched arrow is hitting the string....

as expected,
but,
you fire the bareshaft at the string, just 5 feet away,
and
the bareshaft is consistently missing inches to the RIGHT of the string
or
the bareshaft is missing only 1/4-inch to the RIGHT of the string on the target...

press your bow,
relax the cables
and find the buss cable leg end loop on the LEFT SIDE of the TOP AXLE,
and ADD a twist to shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg.

We are trying to bring DOWN the left side of the top axle.

You can also untwist the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg,
to bring the RIGHT SIDE of the top axle UP.


What this does,
is as we bring DOWN the left side of the top axle (bow is facing the target)...

the cam actually TWISTS towards the LEFT....so the bareshaft point of impact will move left, TOWARDS the string, hanging down in front of the target.


This assumes that your bow DL setting has your release side forearm lined up directly behind the arrow.


TUNING the yoke cable legs...
cleans up SIDEWAYS nock travel,
which basically means...

*your arrow groups grow MORE NARROW...(arrow groups get REALLY SKINNY...left to right).*


----------



## nuts&bolts

bginvestor said:


> Alan.
> 
> Awesome, awesome post! Thanks so much for the great information.
> 
> You know what would complete this is to have a break down for the following cam systems: dual cam, hybrid, binary, single, cam and half,etc.
> 
> This will make it much easier understand for folks including me. The tweaking would be slightly different depending on cam system. Thx



Hello bginvestor:

*If you have a buss cable....
then,
try the YOKE CABLE LEG tuning...*

just tune the sight pins windage setting,
so you can hit a string hanging down in front of a target,
just 5 feet away.

Then,
fire a bareshaft at the string, standing only 5 feet away
and if the bareshaft misses RIGHT of the string,
tune the BUSS CABLE LEG SHORTER on the left side.

This works for a single cam, cuz the top axle has a buss cable....two end loops attached to the top axle...one end loop at each end to the top axle.
This works for a hybrid cam, cuz the top axle has a buss cable....two end loops attached to the top axle...one end loop at each end to the top axle.
This works for a twin cam, cuz the top axle has a buss cable......two end loops attached to the top axle...one end loop at each end to the top axle.

*ANY bow that does NOT have a buss cable...
ANY bow that does NOT have any way to tune the top axle
basically the binary cam bows...

there is no way to adjust the top axle, when at full draw.*

You cannot make the left side of the top axle lower or higher.
If there is no top axle adjustment (no cable end loops that work directly with the ENDS of the top axle)...

then,
we cannot tune SIDEWAYS nock travel.

So,
*if you have a binary cam bow,*
where the cables have ZERO attachment to the axle..

then,
*the ONLY way we can tune sideways nock travel,
is to make adjustments to draw length.*


If you tune the sight pins winadge for your sight on your binary cam bow...
and your fletched arrows are NAILING the string hanging in front of the target...only 5 feet away...

and

if your bareshafts are MISSING off to the right of the string hanging in front of your target.....shooting just 5 feet away,
then,
*your ONLY OPTION...for a binary cam bow*

*is to tune the bow DL setting.*

So,
if the bareshafts are missing RIGHT of the string hanging in front of the target..

this simply means
that the release side FOREARM is NOT perfectly aligned directly behind the arrow...

so,
ADD TWISTS to the top and bottom of the bowstring,
to SHORTEN the bowstring,
and
the bareshaft point if impact should move left towards the string hanging in front of the target.

If the bareshaft is missing by INCHES off to the right of the string hanging in front of the target,
when you are shooting just 5 FEET away...

then,
you will need to try a shorter DL module, at LEAST 1/2-inch shorter.


----------



## timpat92855

I am late to this party but I just read this and am considering trying it out. I am a lefty, so all the left and rights would be reversed for me, correct?


----------



## nuts&bolts

timpat92855 said:


> I am late to this party but I just read this and am considering trying it out. I am a lefty, so all the left and rights would be reversed for me, correct?


Since you are a lefty,
then,
your cable guard/roller guard
pulls the cables away to the LEFT.

So,
most LEFTY's will have a RIGHT paper tear,
meaning the nock is tearing the paper off to the RIGHT,
and
the front end of the arrow is being pushed LEFT.

So,
same experiment...

hang a spool of string in front of a target,
and tweak the sight pins/scope dot windage setting,
until your FLETCHED arrows NAIL the string....shooting only 5 feet away.

Then,
fire a bareshaft.

IF the BARESHAFT misses LEFT of the string...

then,
try tuning the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg SHORTER to pull down the RIGHT SIDE of the TOP AXLE.

Try a twist or two SHORTER on the right side buss cable leg.
Try a twist or two LONGER on the left side buss cable leg.

IF THE buss cable leg tuning has ZERO EFFECT on moving the bareshaft point of impact...

then,
gotta shorten the bow DRAW LENGTH setting.

So,
when you have bow DL setting sorted out,
when you have the buss cable legs TUNED, so that fletched and bareshaft are NAILING the string at just 5 FEET AWAY...

try,
shooting a FLETCHED and a bareshaft just 10 FEET AWAY...

when you can nail the string at just 10 FEET AWAY...

try 20 feet,
then,
try 10 yards...

then, 
try 15 yards....

you know the drill.


----------



## nuts&bolts

timpat92855 said:


> I am late to this party but I just read this and am considering trying it out. I am a lefty, so all the left and rights would be reversed for me, correct?


So,
if draw length is within range...

tuning the buss cable leg lengths (just a twist or two)
will fine tune SIDEWAYS nock travel...

and will get fletched and bareshafts to hit together.

When fletched AND bareshafts hit together at 5 feet,
this makes your FLETCHED arrow groups SUPER DUPER SKINNY.

Then,
you try testing at longer and longer distances..

fine tuning your buss cable legs, just a half twist,
as needed,
to get the tighest groups with FLETCHED and bareshafts.

*When you get to 20 yards,
I would not go any farther...unless you are a world class shooter.*

If you can get fletched AND bareshafts to hit together at 20 yards...

then,
your FLETCHED ARROW groups will be TIGHTER than ever before....at ALL distances.


----------



## bginvestor

Wow, very nice. I just bought a supra and I will be going through this process. Thx.


----------



## Chargett

Subscribed!


----------



## buckeye 12 ring

good info thanks.


----------



## locusthill1831

Any tips for bare shaft tuning a binary cam bow that doesn't have yokes?


----------



## Dado

locusthill1831 said:


> Any tips for bare shaft tuning a binary cam bow that doesn't have yokes?


Try torquing the bow deliberately and see if it affects bare shaft impact.
If it helps getting bare shafts closer to fletched, and it isn't uncomfortable to shoot that way then go for it.

If you get no change (left/right impact) then at least make sure you get bare shafts in level with fletched.


----------



## Mordekyle

So I got new stings for my Diamond Marquis yesterday from 60x custom strings. 

I installed them and followed Nuts & Bolts "Kitchen Sink" method inside at 2 and 12 yards.

Then, I took it outside to sight in and shoot broadheads. 

I got giddy when my fieldpointed arrow nested alongside my BH at 20 yards.

I got goosebumps when I shot a 4 arrow 3 1/2" group at 60 yards. My best ever.

Thanks for your patient instruction, Alan. MUCH appreciated. Like wolbear, I no longer have to pull my hair out. Thank you.


----------



## wolbear

Alan and his tuning methods are so outstanding that it's hard to believe how much better you will shoot for such little effort!!


----------



## rut'n bucks

Marked


----------



## WCork

I haven't read all 17 pages so I apologize if this has been covered already...

Lets say you tweak your buss cable legs and also the buss cable loop at the bottom cam and now you have your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting together out to 20 yards. Does the twists you put into or took out of your buss cable affect your draw stop timing? And if it does, do you then go back to the drawboard to see when the stops are hitting and adjust those again?


----------



## nuts&bolts

WCork said:


> I haven't read all 17 pages so I apologize if this has been covered already...
> 
> Lets say you tweak your buss cable legs and also the buss cable loop at the bottom cam and now you have your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting together out to 20 yards. Does the twists you put into or took out of your buss cable affect your draw stop timing? And if it does, do you then go back to the drawboard to see when the stops are hitting and adjust those again?


Yes.

Just creep tune your bow again.

If you have a hybrid cam system....
you have a 3 piece rigging system:

a) bowstring
b) buss cable (3 total end loops...top two end loops attach to the top axle)
c) control cable.


So,
you have fletched and bareshafts hitting together at 20 yards, and to do this...you tweaked some portion of the buss cable.

So,
horizontal strip of duct tape 
and fire at 20 yards.

Fire 3 arrows at the top edge of the duct tape, with NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.
Fire 3 MORE arrows at the top edge of the duct tape, with HARDER than normal pulling pressure into the wall.











So,
IF you get this result,
we need to tweak the control cable (cable with only 2 end loops)
to OPTIMIZE the cam sync.

So,
pick a direction.

Try UNTWISTING a half twist,
and repeat the SIX arrow experiment:

3 arrows at the top edge of the duct tape, at 20 yards... with NORMAL pulling pressure into the wall.
3 arrows at the top edge of the duct tape, at 20 yards... with HARDER than normal pulling pressure into the wall.

You will QUICKLY discover if UN-TWISTING is the correct direction for adjustment to the control cable
or
You will QUICKLY discover if TWISTING is the correct direction for adjustment to the control cable.


Should only require a half twist adjustment or at most a single full twist adjustment
to the control cable,
to find the SWEET SPOT
where all SIX arrows are hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.

The Hoyt cam systems are VERY sensitve to a small adjustment in the control cable.


----------



## doublebow

I have a helium 28". I got my left and right ok with a bare shaft, but it's high 6" at 20 yards. I have twisted the buss cable to try to correct this and now have 71lbs draw weight. 
Should I keep twisting or can this be nocking point or arrow rest issue? 
The nocking point is a shade above level and arrow through Berger hole.


----------



## nuts&bolts

doublebow said:


> I have a helium 28". I got my left and right ok with a bare shaft, but it's high 6" at 20 yards. I have twisted the buss cable to try to correct this and now have 71lbs draw weight.
> Should I keep twisting or can this be nocking point or arrow rest issue?
> The nocking point is a shade above level and arrow through Berger hole.


What is the draw weight rating for your bow?
Do you have a 70 lb draw weight bow?

If so,
then,
are you getting 71 lbs of draw weight with your limb bolts at maximum?

since you are getting a bareshaft hitting HIGH...
this means that the bottom limb is working too hard.

Simple fix.

Remove/adjust the bottom limb bolt is 1/8th turn adjustments (remove 1/8th turn)
until you get your bareshaft hitting at the same height as the fletched arrows
at 20 yards.


----------



## okiedeergirl

Great post subd to find later


----------



## doublebow

nuts&bolts said:


> What is the draw weight rating for your bow?
> Do you have a 70 lb draw weight bow?
> 
> If so,
> then,
> are you getting 71 lbs of draw weight with your limb bolts at maximum?
> 
> since you are getting a bareshaft hitting HIGH...
> this means that the bottom limb is working too hard.
> 
> Simple fix.
> 
> Remove/adjust the bottom limb bolt is 1/8th turn adjustments (remove 1/8th turn)
> until you get your bareshaft hitting at the same height as the fletched arrows
> at 20 yards.


Thanks, it is a 70lb bow. I knew if I kept twisting the cable, the draw weight would increase. Twisting the cable also caused the timing hole to be off now. Should I take twists back out to get the timing correct?

Thanks again


----------



## nuts&bolts

doublebow said:


> Thanks, it is a 70lb bow. I knew if I kept twisting the cable, the draw weight would increase. Twisting the cable also caused the timing hole to be off now. Should I take twists back out to get the timing correct?
> 
> Thanks again


Since the bareshaft and fletched arrow are hitting together at 5 FEET...

then,
the sideways nock travel has been tuned perfectly.


Now,
the bareshaft is hitting high,
so,
we need to fix the vertical nock travel.

For a single cam bow...

two ways we can fix VERTICAL nock travel....

STEP 1: find the bottom of the buss cable and either TWIST or UNTWIST to get the bareshaft to hit at the SAME height as the fletched arrow...

and/or

STEP 2: since the bareshaft is hitting high
............the bottom limb is working too hard
............so, remove 1/8th turns off the bottom limb
............when you have enough 1/8th turns OFF the bottom limb, the bareshaft will hit at the same height as the fletched arrow.


----------



## huntnutsbro

so, ive been working on my McPherson Edge. reading alot of nuts and bolts stuff. so i modified french tuned, yoke tuned, draw length tuned, and bought new arrows cause the old ones must have been too stiff. well, got a half dozen of arrows in tonight. went out to bare shaft tune, and this happened at 20 yards!









now, should i be concerned about the direction the bare shaft stuck in the fletched? lol j.k.

nuts and bolts knows his stuff. and i will do this to all my future bows as well. groups are crazy tight. now to start broadhead tuning!


----------



## AngelRa

I never shoot two times at the same spot @ 20 yards, even with bare shafts. Shoot a five spot with fletched arrows to confirm accuracy. Remove the arrows and repeat with bare shafts. One shaft per spot.


----------



## nuts&bolts

huntnutsbro said:


> so, ive been working on my McPherson Edge. reading alot of nuts and bolts stuff. so i modified french tuned, yoke tuned, draw length tuned, and bought new arrows cause the old ones must have been too stiff. well, got a half dozen of arrows in tonight. went out to bare shaft tune, and this happened at 20 yards!
> 
> View attachment 1458908
> 
> 
> now, should i be concerned about the direction the bare shaft stuck in the fletched? lol j.k.
> 
> nuts and bolts knows his stuff. and i will do this to all my future bows as well. groups are crazy tight. now to start broadhead tuning!


Congrats.

Looks like you need to broadhead tune at longer distances.


----------



## huntnutsbro

AngelRa 

you need to shoot bare after you shoot a group to see if the bare hits with fletched! thats what i did, and this was the result! dont be mad, im very happy with the results! lol


----------



## huntnutsbro

next is creep tuning, then broadhead tuning.


----------



## B.L.C.

Saving this for future use.


----------



## shooter6687

Great info....


----------



## AngelRa

huntnutsbro said:


> AngelRa
> 
> you need to shoot bare after you shoot a group to see if the bare hits with fletched! thats what i did, and this was the result! dont be mad, im very happy with the results! lol


I am tired of loosing arrows. And if the bare shafts hit the X it as good as the best group.


----------



## 68ymarta

How about a left handed archer, all tweaks are vice versa, right?


----------



## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> How about a left handed archer, all tweaks are vice versa, right?


Correct.

Left handed shooter.

Fire a fletched shaft.
Fire at least 2 bareshafts.

Both bareshafts hit together.
Both bareshafts are missing LEFT of the fletched arrow.

Shorten the RIGHT HAND side of the yoke cable leg.
Goto the top axle, find the end loop on the RIGHT side of the axle, ADD twists to this end loop.

*Front stabilizer is in front of the bow.
You are behind the bow looking at the target.
Goto the top axle...find the end loop on the RIGHT side of the axle, ADD twists to this end loop 
(for LEFT HANDED SHOOTERS, when bareshafts are missing LEFT of the fletched arrows).*


----------



## jbird90

Bringing this thread back up to top

I was doing some bareshaft tuing, but my arrow flight is still a little whippy.
5 yards they group
15 yards they group 
but at the longer distance I can see the tail whip slightly to the left going down range
Specs are 
Beman ICS Hunter 300
100 Grain Tip
404 grains overall with flecting (so I assume about 392 without)
PSE EVO 7 64#
29 inch draw
Scott Silverhorn release

Like I said the grouping seems good, but the whip is what has me wondering. Broadheads fly fine (100 grain slick tricks). Adjusted yokes to take out a right hit. 
When I look down my arrow shaft, it pointing slightly right of where my string and sight line up. 

If the groups are good, should I not worry about inflight characteristics? 

This tuning stuff will make you crazy. I bring this back up because I switched from my chappy boss to the silverhorn. My groups seem ok with fletched arrows, but could always be better. I just find it hard to take in the all the info and feedback while shooting and by the time I think I am making progress my form starts to waiver because I have been flinging arrows for a while and start to tire which I know will affect form and which in turn, affects the arrow flight.


----------



## nubbb

You want to eliminate the whipping. Perfectly tuned, they will fly like darts. 

Be sure your spine is stiff enough. On a compound, better stiff than underspined.

When properly set up, they will fly straight, group together, and hit with your fletched shafts......provided you do your part. 

Wrap an amount of 2" blue masking tape around the area of the shaft where your fletching would be attached. Use an amount of tape that is equal in weight of your fletching.

You will find that different releases, may cause the arrows to fly differently.....so tune with the release type that you will use.

Good luck.


----------



## The Shirt

I have been bare shaft tuning our bows for years and have always had great results. The first book I saw it in was Doctor Your Own Compound so you know how far back I am going. My brother and I both always have a bare shaft in our quivers just so we could check our tune. I would always get a laugh out of guys who would say bare shaft tuning was a wast of time or did not work, for me it has been the best way to set up a bow.


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## gsp11

Subscribed


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## Jette

This is such great info, I really want to do this but I will have to wait and go to a pro shop because I don't have a bow press. Nuts&bolts is so helpful and knolagable he has took time to help me as well he really makes AT better.


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## Alpha Burnt

I have a bow press for sale in the classifieds....


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## Double B

In for later. This is some great info, thanks for sharing


----------



## dillio67

Did this process last year with both my PSE Vendettas and they tuned and shot incredible when done.
NOT so much with my new Supra's.....Got the bare shafts directly on top of my fletched at 10yds move back to 20yds 3" higher than fletched.
My question/problem is I have twisted my control with absolutely no change to impact and the draw stops are not even close.
The Vendetta only had one stop so I didnt have this issue.
I have it back to where both stops hit the same and bare shafts impact 3" high what should I do ignore the stop timing???


----------



## Alpha Burnt

dillio67 said:


> Did this process last year with both my PSE Vendettas and they tuned and shot incredible when done.
> NOT so much with my new Supra's.....Got the bare shafts directly on top of my fletched at 10yds move back to 20yds 3" higher than fletched.
> My question/problem is I have twisted my control with absolutely no change to impact and the draw stops are not even close.
> The Vendetta only had one stop so I didnt have this issue.
> I have it back to where both stops hit the same and bare shafts impact 3" high what should I do ignore the stop timing???



Check nock point and check tiller...bottom limbs might be stronger than the top or vice versa.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

I would start by maxing the limbs out and checking the bow to see if it is in spec, if you have timing marks on the cams, they should be intersecting the cables at this position as well. If your timing marks favor the riser (when viewed from the shelf side), you can either twist up the control cable and buss cable or untwist the string. It will take more twists of the string to move the cam than it will of the cables, I would assess the amount of twists already in them to decide which way to proceed. Opposite is true for the opposite condition. Also keep in mind that the amount of twists (+) or (-) you do will be ballpark. Technically, to keep everything the same you apply less to the buss as you do to the cable because it is shorter and is affected more by the twists. Once you have done this, work on your synchronization or draw stop timing. With the PSE's I have worked with lately, the bottom stop should hit ever so slightly before the top which is opposite of Hoyt. Which ever stop is late, feed that cam more cable by untwisting the cable connected to the riser side of the cam (when viewed from the shelf side) a half twist or whole twist if way off. For finite adjustments, use equal twists in your buss cable yokes. In regards to your nock point, use a bow square and have the bottom disect your berger button hole, from here set your nock point about 1/16" to 1/8" high of dead even. (nock width will play a factor in this). Your nock point will affect the synchronization aka draw stop timing slightly so if you have to move it much, check synchronization aka draw stop timing once again. Your timing marks will not be exactly the same when all is said and done in my experience, but will be close and should be in the very close vicinity of their respective cable. Nuts and Bolts will probably weigh in on this at some point, by all means do what he suggests as he is THE authority on these systems in my opinion...


----------



## dillio67

Alpha Burnt said:


> I would start by maxing the limbs out and checking the bow to see if it is in spec, if you have timing marks on the cams, they should be intersecting the cables at this position as well. If your timing marks favor the riser (when viewed from the shelf side), you can either twist up the control cable and buss cable or untwist the string. It will take more twists of the string to move the cam than it will of the cables, I would assess the amount of twists already in them to decide which way to proceed. Opposite is true for the opposite condition. Also keep in mind that the amount of twists (+) or (-) you do will be ballpark. Technically, to keep everything the same you apply less to the buss as you do to the cable because it is shorter and is affected more by the twists. Once you have done this, work on your synchronization or draw stop timing. With the PSE's I have worked with lately, the bottom stop should hit ever so slightly before the top which is opposite of Hoyt. Which ever stop is late, feed that cam more cable by untwisting the cable connected to the riser side of the cam (when viewed from the shelf side) a half twist or whole twist if way off. For finite adjustments, use equal twists in your buss cable yokes. In regards to your nock point, use a bow square and have the bottom disect your berger button hole, from here set your nock point about 1/16" to 1/8" high of dead even. (nock width will play a factor in this). Your nock point will affect the timing slightly so if you have to move it much, check synchronization aka draw stop timing once again. Your timing marks will not be exactly the same in my experience but will be close and should be in the vicinity of their respective cable.


Ok I have my limbs pegged and timing marks are on the money bow spec is on also.The only thing I have different than what you suggest is I have my arrow set at dead level thru the center of the berger hole.
Now I noticed N&B said to set the arrow with its full weight on the rest(I shoot a AAE freak )....hmm I have a .010 on, think a .012 may work better????
Im going to to try that and then possibly 1/8


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## OHIOARCHER36

marked


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## Alpha Burnt

dillio67 said:


> Ok I have my limbs pegged and timing marks are on the money bow spec is on also.The only thing I have different than what you suggest is I have my arrow set at dead level thru the center of the berger hole.
> Now I noticed N&B said to set the arrow with its full weight on the rest(I shoot a AAE freak )....hmm I have a .010 on, think a .012 may work better????
> Im going to to try that and then possibly 1/8



Does your bow model have the engraved mark to view to see if your arrow is parallel to it? The exact middle of your arrow should pass the exact middle of the berger button hole, while arrow is on the rest. Your nocking point should be set 1/16" to 3/16" above 90 degrees from the center of your berger button hole using a bow square (thats how I do it). By bisecting the berger button hole with the bottom of the bow square, it shows you exactly where the middle of your shaft should be. The 1/16" to 3/16" is dependent on the width of your nock when on the string...Hope I aint confusing you...


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## dillio67

No your not confusing me....I put the .012 blade on reset my loop and nock point to 1/8 now Im 1" high with my bareshafts but now 2" right.
Ill fix the right issue and possibly it will get closer but I can prolly twist enough to get the 1" high now


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## dillio67

Im leaving there....


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## Double B

Mr Allen, you are the man!!!! You helped me a while ago with my xl and after finding this thread I was going to try it. After I got my DL correct I made it back to 10 yards tonight with fletched and bare shafts, I'm hitting my pin nock with the bare shaft arrow and I've never been able to figure that out before so thank you. Tommrow ill get to move back some more but now with the DL correct its just comes back and stops so natural making it seem easier to shoot. Thanks again


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## wv hoyt man

Marked for future reference.


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## Hang 'em High

Marked


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## HOYTDKP

very informative...saving this for later


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## WCork

Just re-read all 18 pages! One of, if not my favorite tuning threads! Thanks Alan!


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## deerhuntinsunof

Alan is the man. Marked for later


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## Double B

I feel like an idiot, sorry I misspelled your name Alan


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## Bossmoss

Tag


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## OHIOARCHER36

heres a question i don't think a read a solution to in here . I got the fletched and bare shafts shooting the same point of impact . now as i shoot through paper the fletched is a perfect bullet hole , BUT (always a but) the bare shaft tears 2'' down to the left (1st shot) tear to the right (2nd shot) with the bare shaft . this was from 20yards . any input ?


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## nuts&bolts

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> heres a question i don't think a read a solution to in here . I got the fletched and bare shafts shooting the same point of impact . now as i shoot through paper the fletched is a perfect bullet hole , BUT (always a but) the bare shaft tears 2'' down to the left (1st shot) tear to the right (2nd shot) with the bare shaft . this was from 20yards . any input ?


YOu need to work on bow hand grip consistency.
Bow hand must be COMPLETELY relaxed.
Bow hand must have the thumb pointed LEVEL and STRAIGHT at the target.

I have a training exercise for you.

Portable target.
Weighted string hanging in front of the target.

Step back 5 feet.
Fire a fletched arrow at the weighted string.
TWEAK the sight pins until you can NAIL the weighted string...split the fibers into two halves.

Should look like this.




















So,
after you can NAIL the weighted string with the fletched arrow....

now,
here comes the HARD PART.

Do it again, with a bareshaft.




















Now,
if the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT,
fire the bareshaft again
and again
and again
and again...

until you get the bareshaft to consistently hit to the SAME SIDE of the weighted string.

IF and WHEN you can consistently get the bareshaft to ALWAYS MISS the weighted string
on the SAME SIDE...

let's say off to the RIGHT of the weighted string....

now,
we can tune the bow
to shoot the BARESHAFT STRAIGHT.

You can only tune a bow
as well as you can CONSISTENTLY shoot.

So,
figure out WHAT you are doing,
which makes the bareshaft sometimes MISS RIGHT
and what makes the bareshaft SOMETIMES miss LEFT.

Probably bow hand position..
and
maybe not setting your FEET in exactly the same position.


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## nuts&bolts

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> heres a question i don't think a read a solution to in here . I got the fletched and bare shafts shooting the same point of impact . now as i shoot through paper the fletched is a perfect bullet hole , BUT (always a but) the bare shaft tears 2'' down to the left (1st shot) tear to the right (2nd shot) with the bare shaft . this was from 20yards . any input ?


Soooooooooo,
if you can master shooting the bareshaft
at only 5 FEET away
and the bareshaft is NOW...always missing to ONE SIDE,
let's say you fired 10 bareshafts,
fire only 1 bareshaft at a time,
and go get it
and repeat NINE more times....

if you can consistently get the bareshaft to miss the bowstring say to the RIGHT consistently...

then,
break out the bow press,
and pull down on the TOP AXLE,
LEFT SIDE.










Might need only 1/2 twist on the LEFT side of the top axle.
Might need maybe 1 complete twist on the LEFT SIDE of the top axle,
to get the bareshaft to TOUCH the weighted string....

only 5 feet away.

So,
keep training at 5 feet
and see if you can shoot the single bareshaft IN YOUR quiver,
and
TOUCH the weighted string a total of 10 times.

This builds shot execution CONSISTENCY.

Might take a half hour to get the bareshaft to touch the weighted string
a total of 10 times.



When you master the bareshaft HITTING the weighted string
only 5 FEET away,
with the bareshaft....

NOT DONE YET...

now,
back up to 10 FEET.

Fire the fletched arrow again.
MICRO-tune the sight pins windage until you get this result.










Yes, TWEAK the sight pins.

Now,
try again
with the bareshaft at 10 FEET away.

Tweak the top axle a half twist if needed,
to get this result.











If you are super anal,
then,
try and SPLIT the string with a bareshaft,
at 10 feet.

I use some Dacron B50 bowstring material,
cuz it is VERY VERY loosely woven.

Takes me about 10 minutes
to try and SPLIT the string fibers,
with a bareshaft
shooting at 10 feet away.

EXCELLENT form training.

Can drive you absolutely NUTS,
cuz,
the tiniest variation in bow hand thumb muscle relaxation,
and throw off the bareshaft one ARROW diameter away,
from SPLITTING the dacron bowstring fibers
with the bareshaft.

*NOT easy training,
but VERY VERY excellent consistency training.*


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## OHIOARCHER36

thanks , gonna try this out , get back to ya on this . again thanks


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## OHIOARCHER36

here's what i got . Spliting string with bare and fletched from 5 and 10 feet . This was at 18 yards , best i can get in basement . One in middle fletched , other 2 bare .


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## Alpha Burnt

^^^somebody has got it dialed in!


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## OHIOARCHER36

This is all new to me (bare shaft tuning), much thanks to n&b . I WAS ALWAYS A PAPER WALK BACK TUNE , TILL I STARTED READING THIS THREAD . JUST ANOTHER THING TO BE ANAL ABOUT .


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## WCork

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> This is all new to me (bare shaft tuning), much thanks to n&b . I WAS ALWAYS A PAPER WALK BACK TUNE , TILL I STARTED READING THIS THREAD . JUST ANOTHER THING TO BE ANAL ABOUT .


Nice job! Did it take very many adjustments?


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## OHIOARCHER36

Not really any at all , the way i set it up was pretty close . Really wanting to get out and do this 60 yard group tune . Snow and wind here in the ohio valley really slowing me down .


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## deadeyemark

Good info and thanx for sharing.


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## nuts&bolts

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> View attachment 1559781
> 
> here's what i got . Spliting string with bare and fletched from 5 and 10 feet . This was at 18 yards , best i can get in basement . One in middle fletched , other 2 bare .


EXCELLENT.

That's what I'm talking about.


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## OHIOARCHER36

nuts&bolts said:


> EXCELLENT.
> 
> That's what I'm talking about.


Thanks Alan , I didn't know squat about this bare shaft tuning .Can't wait to try the rest of the process out . You are the man . And THANK YOU AGAIN......


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## fireman127

:thumbs_up


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## ontarget7

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> View attachment 1559781
> 
> here's what i got . Spliting string with bare and fletched from 5 and 10 feet . This was at 18 yards , best i can get in basement . One in middle fletched , other 2 bare .


Was that with the Helim ? I know when I had mine, that was a bareshaft shooting machine.


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## OHIOARCHER36

Yes helim . How well did it group tune ? Thats my next move .


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## ontarget7

OHIOARCHER36 said:


> Yes helim . How well did it group tune ? Thats my next move .


Great. I was able to get bareshafts on the money at 30-40 yards. Those Helims are sweet shooting bows


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## Feral buster

Here's where I'm at so far used kitchen sink tuning I'm a left-handed shooter, had bare shafts impacting to the right of the string. Added one twist to the left hand side yoke and removed one twist from the right. This brought my bare shafts and fletched arrows together shafts touching all the way out to 15 yds. At 20 yds bare shafts impacting right 1-2 inch right and 1inch high. The right side yoke only had one twist in it so I cannot remove any more twists to remedy the difference at 20yds. Don't know where to go from here? I have photos but don't know how to upload them from iPad


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## nuts&bolts

Feral buster said:


> Here's where I'm at so far used kitchen sink tuning I'm a left-handed shooter, had bare shafts impacting to the right of the string. Added one twist to the left hand side yoke and removed one twist from the right. This brought my bare shafts and fletched arrows together shafts touching all the way out to 15 yds. At 20 yds bare shafts impacting right 1-2 inch right and 1inch high. The right side yoke only had one twist in it so I cannot remove any more twists to remedy the difference at 20yds. Don't know where to go from here? I have photos but don't know how to upload them from iPad



JUST ADD more twists to the LEFT side yoke cable leg,
and leave the RIGHT side yoke cable leg alone.

CONTINUE to add more twists to the LEFT side yoke cable leg,
to PULL DOWN on the top axle, LEFT SIDE.

Do not need to worry about the RIGHT side.

PERFECTLY AOK to only add more TWISTS to the LEFT LEG only.

VERY VERY common to see hardly any twists on one leg,
and
LOTS and LOTS of twists on the other side of the yoke cable leg.


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## Feral buster

Don't worry nuts&bolts sorted me out!


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## papa_bear_l

Do you add tape in place of fletching to the bare shafts to balance the front of center with the fletched shafts?

Pat


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## HoytTF

Marked for later


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## nuts&bolts

papa_bear_l said:


> Do you add tape in place of fletching to the bare shafts to balance the front of center with the fletched shafts?
> 
> Pat


Hello Pat:

You can, if you like.

The idea is to match the weight of your vanes,
cuz the extra weight of the vanes, will make the arrow behave STIFFER.


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## berry79

Tagged for later. Thanks for the wealth of info.


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## Reverend

Subscribed...
Again...


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## Big Rack Buck

ttt for a great thread!


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## ILOVE3D

Also subscribed again


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## papa_bear_l

Another good point. I used kitchen sink and creep tuning without tape to achieve good results. FP, BH & BS all make tight group out to 10 yards. Beyond that the FP & BH stay tight and the BS starts to stray away. I'm going to try adding tape to balance out FOC and stiffness to see if it makes a difference.
I'm shooting a Vegas 450 league and scores went from 408 to 415 already. The bow could have definitely got a better score if it wasn't for the shooter ganking some of the shots. I reference the shot targets to help refine this tuning as 45 shots gives a much better indication than the normal 6 to 9 as the groups start to tighten up.
I can also tell a difference between pin gap and depth of penetration. After I get done with this bow I think I will do my backup bow and keep track of the progress with pictures to document.


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## berry79

This tuning method works. Groups really tightened up. Bare shafts, fp's and broadheads all group nice and tight. This was at 20yrds. Far as I can go in the backyard.


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## nuts&bolts

berry79 said:


> This tuning method works. Groups really tightened up. Bare shafts, fp's and broadheads all group nice and tight. This was at 20yrds. Far as I can go in the backyard.
> View attachment 1572137


Nice shooting!


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## Chiro_Archer

Thank you for sharing this post, definitely subscribed to this to make sure I get a chance to do this over the spring!


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## berry79

I use all of nuts&bolts tuning methods. Started with a paper tune for nock height. Then I use his kitchen sink method, which had me shooting pretty good FP and broadheads, could keep my group within the yellow circle on my rhinehart target @ 20yrds. Did the bare shaft tune today. Just needed a little fine tuning, 1/2 twist on the left yoke and untwist 1/2 on the right and shafts were now smacking together at 20yrds.


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## wvbowhunter77

Marking for future because I can't remember all this. We need a sticky of nuts & bolts bare shaft method! Thanks for all this info on this thread!


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## tannercutiger

subscribed


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## wvdoehunter

What yardage do you usually soot from with bare shafts? At 5 and 10 feet and 10 yards I'm good, and even 20 yards some of the shafts will touch but are a little low. Then at 30 there really low. Seems the farther the range the lower they are from fletched arrows.


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## nuts&bolts

wvdoehunter said:


> What yardage do you usually soot from with bare shafts? At 5 and 10 feet and 10 yards I'm good, and even 20 yards some of the shafts will touch but are a little low. Then at 30 there really low. Seems the farther the range the lower they are from fletched arrows.


10 yards and 15 yards and 20 yards
are a good starting point.

AT 20 yards,
try CREEP TUNING with fletched arrows.

I discuss CREEP TUNING here.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

See POST #15.

When you have found the SWEET SPOT for CREEP TUNING adjustments (adjust the control cable in 1/2 twist adjustments)..
and you have fletched arrows all HITTING the top edge of the horizontal strip of duct tape...20 yards away....set at YOUR EXACT SHOULDER HEIGHT...

then,
give two bareshafts a try,
at the same top edge
of the horizontal strip of duct tape,
set at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.

Gotta fire at least 2 bareshafts,
to see if the two bareshafts have the SAME point of impact.

This helps you decide if your shooting technique is consistent.

Don't try and shoot bareshafts at at target sitting on the ground.

MUCH easier if you find a way to get your target up at shoulder height,
and have the strip of duct tape
at your EXACT shoulder height.


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## wvdoehunter

It's a binary cam, two cables and a string? Not really sure if I should twist/untwist cables or string?


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## nuts&bolts

wvdoehunter said:


> It's a binary cam, two cables and a string? Not really sure if I should twist/untwist cables or string?




Your binary cam bow has a 3 part rigging system.

a) bowstring.

b) cable #1

c) cable #2.

So,
to fix vertical nock travel,
goto the top cam,
and find the peg closest to the perimeter, the EDGE of the cam.

Find this end loop,
and WORK the twists on this end loop
on the top cam,
this PEG nearest the EDGE of the cam.

ONLY work this ONE cable end loop.

TRY ADDING a half twist,
and see if your results get better,
during CREEP TUNING.

If you see no change,
then,
try adding another HALF TWIST.

You will QUICKLY FIND OUT if the EXTRA half twists are HELPING YOU or HURTING YOU.

So,
when you find the correct direction to tune...

either ADDING or REMOVING half twists...
from the top cam peg,
nearest the outside edge of the cam,
WORK the HALF TWIST adjustments in this CABLE END LOOP (not bowstring)
until you get to the SWEET SPOT,
and
ALL of your fletched arrows
are...

hitting the top edge of the horizontal strip of duct tape,
set at YOUR EXACT shoulder height,
20 yards away.


----------



## Reverend

Hello Alan.
I've really been helped by your "kitchen sink" tuning methods. So let me say "thank you" once again for the wealth of info you take the time to share with us here on AT.
I do have a question: I've noticed that you don't recommend making minor adjustments to the rest's _elevation_ to correct bareshafts that hit higher or lower than the fletched shafts. Is there a reason why you don't include this in one of your steps?


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## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Hello Alan.
> I've really been helped by your "kitchen sink" tuning methods. So let me say "thank you" once again for the wealth of info you take the time to share with us here on AT.
> I do have a question: I've noticed that you don't recommend making minor adjustments to the rest's _elevation_ to correct bareshafts that hit higher or lower than the fletched shafts. Is there a reason why you don't include this in one of your steps?


I want to get the nock travel LEVEL FIRST.

So,
this means,
we tweak the CAM synchronization,
during CREEP TUNING at 20 yards.

The purpose of Kitchen Sink Tuning,
is to work the SIDEWAYS nock travel,
as close to ZERO as we can.

This makes the left-right misses as TIGHT as possible.

Then,
STAGE 2
is the CREEP TUNING.

This makes the vertical nock travel as close to ZERO as we can.

So, aiming at a horizontal strip of duct tape set at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.
This will have the arrow DEAD horizontal, while at full draw.

So,
our target is the top edge of the duct tape,
also set at your EXACT shoulder height.

So,
tweaking CAM sync (working the control cable on hybrid bows)
will get the HIGH-LOW misses as TIGHT as possible.

The cam sync controls how LEVEL or NOT level the nock travel is.

WE want the d-loop moving in a DEAD horizontal line,
when you release the arrow.

The arrow rest is just a guide,
and does not CHANGE nock travel,
does not CHANGE if the d-loop travels in a LEVEL line or not.

So,
we CREEP TUNE
to fix the VERTICAL nock travel.

So,
KITCHEN SINK TUNING FIRST.

So,
CREEP TUNING as STAGE II.

So,
GROUP TUNING as STAGE III,
where we shoot long range fletched arrow groups,
and NOW...

we micro tune the arrow rest height,
we micro tune the arrow rest horizontal position...1/64ths

to get the absolute TIGHTEST groups,
say at 40 or 60 yards.

Do things in orders.


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## bust'em1

marked for later


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## Jbc3902

Hey Nuts and Bolts, my question is does the arrow type effect bare shaft tuning results. What I mean by this is given the average shooter, would say a regular hunting arrow bare shaft tune easier then an ultralight 3d arrow? I guess my reason for asking is it would seem a large diameter arrow that was very light would be even more susceptible to torque or movement when being shot without fletchings. That may not be the case, but was just wondering your thoughts on it.

Thanks a ton


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## nuts&bolts

Jbc3902 said:


> Hey Nuts and Bolts, my question is does the arrow type effect bare shaft tuning results. What I mean by this is given the average shooter, would say a regular hunting arrow bare shaft tune easier then an ultralight 3d arrow? I guess my reason for asking is it would seem a large diameter arrow that was very light would be even more susceptible to torque or movement when being shot without fletchings. That may not be the case, but was just wondering your thoughts on it.
> 
> Thanks a ton


Depends on the shooting skill of the shooter,
size of groups
and distance the shooter is comfortable shooting.

Depends on the tuning level for the bow.
If you take the time to tune the bow to perfection,
then,
you really won't notice much difference.

I currently shoot Carbon Express Nano XR 410s...super skinny target arrows.
I have shot GoldTip Series 22s, GoldTip X-Cutters...really FAT carbon arrows.

I use 120 grain tool steel points in the super skinny target arrows.
I use 100 grain GoldTip target points in the FAT carbon arrows.

BAreshaft tuning is really about DIALING in your draw length,
not just 1/2-inch DL module changes..

but,
twisting the bowstring (top and bottom)
to get the SIDEWAYS pull on the bowstring down to ZERO...

tweaking the DL say 1/16th inch,
say 1/8th inch...

and even down the 1/2 twist,
to get your arrow groups FLETCHED and Bareshaft)
as TIGHT as possible.


I tuned a bow long distance for Flopduster.

Here are his FIRST 3 shots,
2 fletched and 1 bareshaft,
at 30 yards.










AND,
he is left handed,
and I am right handed.

So,
you CAN long distance tune a bow,
under CERTAIN circumstances.


use whatever tuning methods you like...
I recommend my KITCHEN SINK tuning
and then Creep Tuning..

and then,
dial in with some bareshaft tuning for the TIGHTEST groups ever.

Here is a 20 yard group
from my DST 40 with the skinny target arrows.










But,
you can get these kinds of results
with the FAT carbon arrows, as well.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Jbc3902 said:


> Hey Nuts and Bolts, my question is does the arrow type effect bare shaft tuning results. What I mean by this is given the average shooter, would say a regular hunting arrow bare shaft tune easier then an ultralight 3d arrow? I guess my reason for asking is it would seem a large diameter arrow that was very light would be even more susceptible to torque or movement when being shot without fletchings. That may not be the case, but was just wondering your thoughts on it.
> 
> Thanks a ton


So,
use your current arrows,
try KITCHEN SINK tuning to start,
then,
try CREEP Tuning next...

then,
finish up with bareshaft tuning,
to really dial in your results.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Jbc3902 said:


> Hey Nuts and Bolts, my question is does the arrow type effect bare shaft tuning results. What I mean by this is given the average shooter, would say a regular hunting arrow bare shaft tune easier then an ultralight 3d arrow? I guess my reason for asking is it would seem a large diameter arrow that was very light would be even more susceptible to torque or movement when being shot without fletchings. That may not be the case, but was just wondering your thoughts on it.
> 
> Thanks a ton


Bareshaft tuning is a test of shooting skill, 
shooting consistency,
and
tuning of the bow settings.

Now,
*if you are Ray Knight...
*
then,
you get THESE results....

at 20 YARDS.

:mg:


----------



## Jbc3902

I'm sueing Ray Knight for copyright infringement, how did he get that pic of mine?

Thanks N&B, I'm gonna post up my results because right now I'm losing my mind. 10 yds ill put bare shafts and fletched practically inside each other. Paper is still also bullets. Yet my groups suck at 20-30yds. This is not a problem with my helium or my chill. My group at 60 with my helium is unreal for my lack of skill. But my target arrows and my prime shift I just can't figure out.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Jbc3902 said:


> I'm sueing Ray Knight for copyright infringement, how did he get that pic of mine?
> 
> Thanks N&B, I'm gonna post up my results because right now I'm losing my mind. 10 yds ill put bare shafts and fletched practically inside each other. Paper is still also bullets. Yet my groups suck at 20-30yds. This is not a problem with my helium or my chill. My group at 60 with my helium is unreal for my lack of skill. But my target arrows and my prime shift I just can't figure out.


What arrow rest?


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## Jbc3902

I'm using the apache carbon drop away rest I'm about to upload some photos


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## Jbc3902

Specs

Prime shift right handed
62.5lbs ( scale isn't the best but that should be real close)
Measured a full length arrow after full draw on my BOA, marked middle of Berger hole and marked back edge of riser.
Arrow measures 26.75 inches to middle of Berger from depth of nock, and 26.25 to back of riser
I'm shooting black eagle magnums the 350.oo3 with three blazers and a 100 grain tip total weight 352.6.

Gonna post pics as soon as I figure out how


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## Jbc3902

Form pictures not sure if they ok, my wife had to kinda help


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## Jbc3902

Omg I posted me sideways, hope your monitor can rotate lol

This was the result at 10 yds







Two bare shafts








With two fletched ( I aimed higher then the bare shafts to keep from destroying them)









Too bad the one fletched is down and left, and I bet you can tell why. I hate breaking arrows.


I'll get some photos of groups at 20,30,40 tomorrow as its dark now. But when I used to make injexion arrows almost touch with my helium, I can't come close at longer ranges with my shift


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## Jbc3902

Also my actual arrow is 26.5 carbon to carbon


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## nuts&bolts

Ok.

Your pics, rotated correctly.


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## nuts&bolts

REALLY BAD idea to shoot multiple arrows inside your garage.

I usually instruct folks
to PIN a string with a weight on the end,
to a portable target,
and
then,
step back and fire a single arrow at the string,
until you can SPLIT the string fibers,
with your fletched arrow.

5 feet is MORE than enough.




















So,
when you can SPLIT the string fibers with a fletched arrow,
at ONLY 5 feet....

if you miss,
then just move your sight pins windage setting
then just move your sight scope windage setting
slightly LEFT or RIGHT in TINY amounts,
until you SPLIT the string fibers with your fletched arrow.

DO NOT TOUCH YOUR ARROW REST.

Now,
try again with a bareshaft.

From 5 feet.

Take a photo.




















If you get this result,
then your draw length is PERFECTLY dialed in.

If you do NOT get this result,
if your bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the weighted string...

remember,
you are ONLY shooting from 5 FEET away..

then,
we need to dial in your draw length,
by SHORTENING the bowstring (add twists at the TOP and bottom).

So,
try this draw length test,
and then post up some photos
of the fletched arrow fired from 5 feet...

and
of the bareshaft arrow fired from just 5 FEET.

Of course,
PULL the fletched arrow,
before you fire the bareshaft arrow at the string.


----------



## Jbc3902

The black line I drew on my target I thought was kinda like a string, but I got some yarn or something my wife had and shot. I'm probably 8 ft away on first two shots the second bare shaft is about 15 yds

Ok for some reason photos not uploading


----------



## Jbc3902

http://s255.beta.photobucket.com/user/jbc3902/media/image_zps4b0829eb.jpg.html#sthash.yPglAQNg.dpuf
http://s255.beta.photobucket.com/user/jbc3902/media/image_zpsd377607b.jpg.html#sthash.yPglAQNg.dpuf
http://s255.beta.photobucket.com/user/jbc3902/media/image_zpsa41467b3.jpg.html#sthash.yPglAQNg.dpuf

Ok pics are out of order the first is from 8 ft the second is 15yds and the last is the fletched at 8 ft.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Jbc3902 said:


> 8 foot shot - bareshaft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15 yards shot - bareshaft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 foot shot - fletched
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok pics are out of order the first is from 8 ft the second is 15yds and the last is the fletched at 8 ft.


Nice shooting.

So,
let's see your 15 yard groups,
let's see your 20 yard groups,
let's see your 30 yard groups.


----------



## tannercutiger

Used Nuts & Bolts Tuning Method on my brand new Mathews C4. Your tuning method worked great. Here is a pic of my final group of fletched arrows and bareshaft at 20 yards.


----------



## Jbc3902

Tanner, are those black eagle magnums? What nock inserts are those? Mine are flat on the back and love to help me split arrows when shooting.


----------



## nuts&bolts

tannercutiger said:


> Used Nuts & Bolts Tuning Method on my brand new Mathews C4. Your tuning method worked great. Here is a pic of my final group of fletched arrows and bareshaft at 20 yards.


VERY VERY nice!


----------



## tannercutiger

Jbc3902 said:


> Tanner, are those black eagle magnums? What nock inserts are those? Mine are flat on the back and love to help me split arrows when shooting.


Yes they are black eagle magnums, and those are the black eagle pin nock bushings


----------



## bigmo101

I finally had a chance to read the whole thread. Things just clicked and everything worked out well. Fletched and bareshafts flying together out to 40 yds. I have a binary cam so I can't do the whole yoke tuning deal, but I messed with the tiller and made the difference.

Things just make a lot more sense tuning wise.


----------



## Jbc3902

Nuts&Bolts sorry it took me so long to post back.

Here is my 10yd, 20yd, 30yd groups. I'm not sure if it was fear of looking bad or a very minor movement of my rest the day I posted up my bareshaft results, but this is by far the best it's ever looked with these arrows. Not really sure what I should do now. Also they may be better because I think I have target panic. So I made my finger release super hard to go off so now I have to squeeze for awhile to get a shot off.

10 yds








20 yds








30 yds (two groups)















Super sorry if I'm upside down again, I'm posting from my iPad so I got no clue how to flip stuff


----------



## nuts&bolts

10 yards.











20 yards.











30 yards...pic 1.











30 yards...pic 2.











NICE SHOOTING!


----------



## nuts&bolts

bigmo101 said:


> I finally had a chance to read the whole thread. Things just clicked and everything worked out well. Fletched and bareshafts flying together out to 40 yds. I have a binary cam so I can't do the whole yoke tuning deal, but I messed with the tiller and made the difference.
> 
> Things just make a lot more sense tuning wise.


Nice Shooting.
Fletched and bareshafts at 40 yards,
is EXCELLENT.


----------



## Jbc3902

Hey nuts none of those are bareshafts all are fletched, and my max was 30 should I have shot bareshafts with each grouping? Sorry about the hard to see black fletchings I know that doesn't help.

Ignore this post Nuts&Bolts I'm ******ed and didn't know who you were talking too.


----------



## eskimoohunt

Great thread


----------



## rajahmar

Tried to bareshaft tune my new toy, Conquest 4. 

Left and right was easy to get working and now bareshafts are hitting about 6" high from 20 yards. Anyway, I'm having hard times to get bareshafts hitting lower. Tried to move rest down, not helped too much. Loosening cable a few twists and that helped, but not too much anyway.

I'm wondering if there is something special with minimax cam or anything else I could try? Or could it be arrow based problem, tried this one with really short 500 series X-busters and 120grain points. Normally I shoot 400 X-busters with 200grain points with my Apex (which I did not have with me on test time).


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> Tried to bareshaft tune my new toy, Conquest 4.
> 
> Left and right was easy to get working and now bareshafts are hitting about 6" high from 20 yards. Anyway, I'm having hard times to get bareshafts hitting lower. Tried to move rest down, not helped too much. Loosening cable a few twists and that helped, but not too much anyway.
> 
> I'm wondering if there is something special with minimax cam or anything else I could try? Or could it be arrow based problem, tried this one with really short 500 series X-busters and 120grain points. Normally I shoot 400 X-busters with 200grain points with my Apex (which I did not have with me on test time).


What arrow rest?


----------



## rajahmar

nuts&bolts said:


> What arrow rest?


Trophy taker pro with .12 blade

Here is cam position at the moment:


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> Trophy taker pro with .12 blade
> 
> Here is cam position at the moment:


Picture of arrow rest, please.


----------



## rajahmar

nuts&bolts said:


> Picture of arrow rest, please.


Here we go:


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> Here we go:



Do you have your limb bolts the same number of turns away from maximum?

Try weakening the bottom limb, say 1 full turn LESS.


----------



## rajahmar

nuts&bolts said:


> Do you have your limb bolts the same number of turns away from maximum?
> 
> Try weakening the bottom limb, say 1 full turn LESS.


Yes I have. Will try that one next and let you know how it goes, Thanks Alan!


----------



## rajahmar

rajahmar said:


> Yes I have. Will try that one next and let you know how it goes, Thanks Alan!


You were right about it. Right after taking one turn from bottom limb bolt the C4 started to work:shade:

I'm not lucky enough to have 20 yards basement to test but this picture is shot about 11 yards. From this distance bareshafts were originally still about 3" high but right after bottom limb loosening those were spot on!


----------



## nuts&bolts

rajahmar said:


> You were right about it. Right after taking one turn from bottom limb bolt the C4 started to work:shade:
> 
> I'm not lucky enough to have 20 yards basement to test but this picture is shot about 11 yards. From this distance bareshafts were originally still about 3" high but right after bottom limb loosening those were spot on!


EXCELLENT.

When you are able,
then,
try longer and longer distances.


----------



## OHIOARCHER36

Good info


----------



## r49740

What would be considered an excellent group, say 2 fletched and 2 bare, at 30 yards... being good enough to say it won't get any better and just go to group tuning? Or is it needed to continue to bareshaft at 40?


----------



## nuts&bolts

r49740 said:


> What would be considered an excellent group, say 2 fletched and 2 bare, at 30 yards... being good enough to say it won't get any better and just go to group tuning? Or is it needed to continue to bareshaft at 40?


YOu have to decide what is an excellent group at 30 yards.

YOU know what is your personal average.
YOU know what is your personal best.

So,
if you are hitting average groups for YOUR shooting skill level,
YOU decide if you want to see if you can do BETTER.

Usually,
I tell folks to try and get fletched and bareshafts hitting their average group size
at 20 yards.

Then,
start group tuning with fletched arrows
at your maximum,
comfortable tuning distance.

*Here is a photo of the FIRST 3 shots at 30 yards, for flopduster,
for a Maitland Retribution I custom tuned for him, long distance.*










NOTE: he is left handed, so I was tuning his bow, shooting LEFT handed,
even though I shoot right handed. Flopduster is happy.


----------



## r49740

I meant as far as how picky to be with bareshafts grouping with fletched shafts. My last group outside with just a little wind gave me two fletched and 2 bareshafts inside the x ring on a 92cm target. No noticeable difference left/right between bareshafts/fletched shafts. 

So question is more of the bareshaft part of that... do I go to 40 and bareshaft more, or should I just go to the longest range I can group at and just group tune? I've never bareshaft tuned before, so not sure how far back to go with the bareshaft part.


----------



## OCOutdoors

If you bare shaft tune at say 10yrds and get them grouping with fletched arrows then move to 20yrds and the bare shafts shoot differently then what should be done? Or say from 20yrds to 30yrds?


----------



## nuts&bolts

r49740 said:


> I meant as far as how picky to be with bareshafts grouping with fletched shafts. My last group outside with just a little wind gave me two fletched and 2 bareshafts inside the x ring on a 92cm target. No noticeable difference left/right between bareshafts/fletched shafts.
> 
> So question is more of the bareshaft part of that... do I go to 40 and bareshaft more, or should I just go to the longest range I can group at and just group tune? I've never bareshaft tuned before, so not sure how far back to go with the bareshaft part.


I usually shoot bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards,
and get them to smack as close as I can.

Then,
proceed to group tune at the max comfortable distance
with fletched.

If 20 yards is comfy for you,
then,
group tune to get the best result you can.

I installed my new DS Advantage arrow rest on my DST 40
and was happy with these fletched arrow results at 20 yards.










So,
if you are getting tight groups,
that make you happy at 20 yards....
with fletched
or
with fletched and bareshaft...

then,
proceed to your max distance
that YOU shoot consistent groups.

So,
maybe you shoot 50 meters,
maybe you shoot 60 meters,
maybe you shoot 70 meters,
maybe you shoot 90 meters.

Go to the longest distance
where you have CONSISTENT groups,
and then,
experiment with group tuning,
so that you reach a NEW PERSONAL BEST.

That's all there is to it.

So,
I am comfortable shooting bareshafts out to 60 yards,
cuz at the field archery practice range where I shoot,
that's the max distance available.

If YOUR outdoor range has a 90 meter target
and you shoot CONSISTENT 90 meter groups,
and if you can nail a target at say 50 meters and 60 meters and 70 meters
with a BARESHAFT....

I would do that FIRST,
before trying a bareshaft at 90 METERS.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> If you bare shaft tune at say 10yrds and get them grouping with fletched arrows then move to 20yrds and the bare shafts shoot differently then what should be done? Or say from 20yrds to 30yrds?


If the bareshafts are not doing well at 20 yards...

TWO THINGS:

a) tweak bow tuning

b) consider that the shooter needs tweaking.
....this is why I say ALWAYS shoot 2 bareshafts at 20 yards.

If you cannot get 2 bareshafts to smack together and do the same point of impact
at 20 yards...STOP,
and go back to bareshaft tuning at 10 yards and 15 yards.

Start at 5 FEET.
See if you can get a bareshaft to NAIL the weighted string.



















Try and SPLIT a weighted string at 5 feet with a fletched arrow.


















Fire a bareshaft at the same weighted string at just 5 FEET
and see if you can make the string move...make the bareshaft TOUCH the weighted string, firing from only 5 FEET away.

If you are a real glutton for punishment,
keep doing this until you SPLIT the string with a bareshaft.

Takes me maybe 5 minutes to do this at 5 FEET.

Now,
if you really like punishment,
fire a bareshaft at a weighted string at 10 FEET.

Takes me maybe 15 minutes of shooting, to get the bareshaft to SPLIT the string...only 10 FEET away.


Now
if you REALLY REALLY want a challenge,
then,
do what Ray knight did at 20 yards,
with a weighted bowstring.










Two fletched
and two bareshafts...

all STACKED vertically,
each arrow SPLITTING the weighted bowstring
at 20 YARDS.

Now, THAT is precision shooting...SUPER HUMAN shooting.


For us HUMAN, shooters, with average skills,
then,
we bareshaft tune at 20 yards, with fletched and bareshafts.

Here is an example of what Flopduster did at 30 YARDS,
when he got his Maitland Retribution back from long distance tuning.

FIRST 3 shots.

2 fletched. 1 Bare.


----------



## nuts&bolts

r49740 said:


> I meant as far as how picky to be with bareshafts grouping with fletched shafts. My last group outside with just a little wind gave me two fletched and 2 bareshafts inside the x ring on a 92cm target. No noticeable difference left/right between bareshafts/fletched shafts.
> 
> So question is more of the bareshaft part of that... do I go to 40 and bareshaft more, or should I just go to the longest range I can group at and just group tune? I've never bareshaft tuned before, so not sure how far back to go with the bareshaft part.



92 cm target at WHAT distance?

40 cm FITA target face at 20 yards...

fletched arrows tuned to hit as TIGHTLY as possible.
Bare shafts should be hitting/smacking with the fletched..or close to it.

Now,
proceed to your long range shooting,
say 40 or 60 yards,
and group tune with FLETCHED.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> If you bare shaft tune at say 10yrds and get them grouping with fletched arrows then move to 20yrds and the bare shafts shoot differently then what should be done? Or say from 20yrds to 30yrds?


Need a picture.

What does "shoot differently" mean?

Only YOU know what is your average 20 yard group size...
Only YOU know what is your average 30 yard group size.

So,
get the baresahfts and fletched grouping as TIGHTLY as you can, at 20 yards.

Then,
go and shoot 30 yards,
and try and BEAT your personal best.

This is the whole idea behind KITCHEN SINK Tuning,
to tweak the available options on your bow..
until YOU are happy..

until YOU reach your NEW personal best group size
at whatever distance you are tuning at.

At the LONGER distances,
a HALF twist makes a LARGE difference.

At short range,
you will not see the effect
of a half twist adjustment.


----------



## OCOutdoors

nuts&bolts said:


> Need a picture.
> 
> What does "shoot differently" mean?
> 
> Only YOU know what is your average 20 yard group size...
> Only YOU know what is your average 30 yard group size.
> 
> So,
> get the baresahfts and fletched grouping as TIGHTLY as you can, at 20 yards.
> 
> Then,
> go and shoot 30 yards,
> and try and BEAT your personal best.
> 
> This is the whole idea behind KITCHEN SINK Tuning,
> to tweak the available options on your bow..
> until YOU are happy..
> 
> until YOU reach your NEW personal best group size
> at whatever distance you are tuning at.
> 
> At the LONGER distances,
> a HALF twist makes a LARGE difference.
> 
> At short range,
> you will not see the effect
> of a half twist adjustment.


No pictures, it was just a question out of curiosity. I'm saying if your bare shaft is shooting left at 10yrds and you move the left/right yoke cables so bare shafts are hitting with fletched. If your bare shafts are now getting poi as your fletched then will they stay that way at 20, 30, 40+ yards? What is group tuning?


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> No pictures, it was just a question out of curiosity. I'm saying if your bare shaft is shooting left at 10yrds and you move the left/right yoke cables so bare shafts are hitting with fletched. If your bare shafts are now getting poi as your fletched then will they stay that way at 20, 30, 40+ yards? What is group tuning?


Start with my Kitchen Sink Tuning Method.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning
See Post #5.

After you finish Kitchen Sink Tuning...

then, goto Post #15
and do Creep Tuning.

AFTER you finish Kitchen Sink Tuning first,
and then,
AFTER you finish Creep Tuning second...

then,
try and shoot a group of fletched arrows at 20 yards
and see how you do with fletched arrows.

You SHOULD get a result like this,
at 20 yards.










Maybe not EXACTLY as tight as Flopduster does,
but you get the general idea...

whatever is your AVERAGE group size at 20 yards,
then,
the bareshaft and fletched should all form a group
that matches your AVERAGE group size at 20 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> No pictures, it was just a question out of curiosity. I'm saying if your bare shaft is shooting left at 10yrds and you move the left/right yoke cables so bare shafts are hitting with fletched. If your bare shafts are now getting poi as your fletched then will they stay that way at 20, 30, 40+ yards? What is group tuning?


I would not start with bareshaft tuning at 10 yards.

I would do the Kitchen Sink Tuning,
and this will have you shoot a bareshaft at 5 FEET...

and Kitchen Sink Tuning will help you fix horizontal nock travel...
this makes 6-inch wide groups more NARROW, so they become 5-inch wide groups
or 4-inch wide groups or 2-inch wide groups,
when you FINISH Kitchen Sink Tuning.


Then,
we follow up with CREEP Tuning,
and this fixes VERTICAL nock travel.

So, if your groups are 6-inch TALL GROUPS,
then, they become 5-inch TALL groups
or they become 3-inch TALL groups
or they become 2-inch TALL groups,
after you finish Creep Tuning.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> No pictures, it was just a question out of curiosity. I'm saying if your bare shaft is shooting left at 10yrds and you move the left/right yoke cables so bare shafts are hitting with fletched. If your bare shafts are now getting poi as your fletched then will they stay that way at 20, 30, 40+ yards? What is group tuning?


AFTER you start with Kitchen Sink Tuning..

AFTER you complete Creep Tuning...

then,
you can wrap up with Group Tuning.

Let's say you can shoot consistent groups at 20 yards.

Ok.

Then,
we will group tune at 20 yards.

This means,
we make SUPER DUPER TINY changes to the arrow rest horizontal position,
to get the 20 yards groups as SKINNY as possible,
in the left to right direction.

This means,
we also make SUPER DUPER tiny adjustments to the arrow rest height setting,
to get the arrow group at 20 yards,
as FLAT as possible.

So,
group tuning is a TWO STEP process.

When you get your 20 yard groups as TIGHT as possible,
then,
you are finished with GROUP TUNING at 20 yards.

Group Tuning my DST 40, after I installed the new DS Advantage Arrow Rest.


----------



## Ned250

Saving for later...


----------



## 68ymarta

I'am bit confused because, i shoot at 5 and 10 feet and move sight windage, put twist left yoke leg and move arrow rest left, but no change, both bare and fletched arrows still hit about 2 cm right of the string. What should i try next


----------



## WMA HUNTER

68ymarta said:


> I'am bit confused because, i shoot at 5 and 10 feet and move sight windage, put twist left yoke leg and move arrow rest left, but no change, both bare and fletched arrows still hit about 2 cm right of the string. What should i try next


Put arrow rest back to center and leave it there for now. Move sights until fletched arrow hits string and then try bareshaft . 

Moving the rest is for fine tuning with fletched at longer distance.


----------



## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> I'am bit confused because, i shoot at 5 and 10 feet and move sight windage, put twist left yoke leg and move arrow rest left, but no change, both bare and fletched arrows still hit about 2 cm right of the string. What should i try next


Hello 68ymarta:

STEP 1: 5 feet away

STEP 2: DO NOT TOUCH YOUR ARROW REST, when only 5 feet away

STEP 3: Pin a weighted string to your target

STEP 4: fire a fletched arrow at the weighted string..ONLY move the sight pins windage setting, tiny left-right adjustments

STEP 5: ONLY adjust the sight pins left or right, in tiny amount, until you get this result shooting at 5 FEET.


----------



## nuts&bolts

68ymarta said:


> I'am bit confused because, i shoot at 5 and 10 feet and move sight windage, put twist left yoke leg and move arrow rest left, but no change, both bare and fletched arrows still hit about 2 cm right of the string. What should i try next


STEP 6: Now, we switch to the bareshaft

STEP 7: still shooting at 5 feet

STEP 8: DO NOT TOUCH YOUR ARROW REST

STEP 9: DO NOT TOUCH your sight pins windage setting

STEP 10: we will TRY a tiny yoke leg adjustment, IF NEEDED

STEP 11: DO YOU GET THIS RESULT?...with a bareshaft, shooting at only 5 FEET?





STEP 12: IF you are RIGHT HANDED...and your BARESHAFT is missing 2 cm RIGHT of the string...this would be the SAME as a small LEFT paper tear.



PRESS the bow.

TRY ADDING a MAXIMUM...no MORE than....2 complete twists to the top axle, LEFT SIDE.

Fire your bareshaft at the weighted string, from only 5 FEET.

If the bareshaft is missing to the RIGHT...STILL...

then,
TRY REMOVING A MAXIMUM..NO MORE than 2 twists, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

If the bareshaft continues to miss to the RIGHT...

then,
we must go to the BIG GUNS and make a MAJOR adjustment.

NO MORE TWISTS to the top axle. STOP adding twists to the top axle, LEFT SIDE. STOP removing twists to the top axle, RIGHT SIDE.
NO MORE TWISTS.

NOW,
we must reduce your draw length,
maybe 3 mm
maybe 6 mm
maybe 9 mm
maybe 12 mm.

We goto the bowstring,
and we add twists at BOTH ENDS of the bowstring.

If you try adding 5 twists to the TOP of the bowstring,
then,
you should try adding 7-8 twists to the BOTTOM of the bowstring,
to keep the peep sight pointed straight ahead.

NOW,
if you shorten the bow DL Setting,
you ABSOLUTELY MUST keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as before.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

If we shortened the draw length, say 6mm,
we MUST keep the same exact anchor.

HOW do we keep the same exact anchor,
if the nock is now 6 mm CLOSER to the riser?

YOU BEND.

The ARM PITS must MOVE closer to the riser 6 mm.
The hips must move AWAY from the riser.

WE start with the ORIGINAL draw length (too long) looking like THIS.




Then,
we shorten the bow DL Setting,
maybe 6 mm,
maybe 12 mm...

and then,
with the SAME bow arm elbow bend angle,
then,
we look like THIS, after shortening the bow DL setting.




THIS must happen,
when we shorten the bow DL setting,
to pass the 5 foot DRAW LENGTH TEST.



The shooting posture MUST CHANGE
when shortening the bow DL setting.

When the bow DL setting is finally SHORT ENOUGH,

you get THESE results.










OK.

*The last picture,
ONLY Ray knight gets THOSE results,
at 20 yards.*


----------



## OCOutdoors

You are saying that you don't necessarily have to add/remove twists from both sides of the yoke at the same time? I've always wondered this.

Also curious about string twists, I was playing with chrono today and noticed if I took twists out of strings it lengthened draw length and gave more fps. If I added twists it will shorten draw length and less fps. I could get a difference of 15fps just from adding/removing twists to bow string. What I don't get is if I lengthen my fps went up but doesn't that also take away DW?


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> You are saying that you don't necessarily have to add/remove twists from both sides of the yoke at the same time? I've always wondered this.
> 
> Also curious about string twists, I was playing with chrono today and noticed if I took twists out of strings it lengthened draw length and gave more fps. If I added twists it will shorten draw length and less fps. I could get a difference of 15fps just from adding/removing twists to bow string. What I don't get is if I lengthen my fps went up but doesn't that also take away DW?


Tune based on RESULTS.

If you are RIGHT handed,
if your bareshaft misses the weighted string off to the right,
goto the top axle,
and ADD 1/2 twist to the LEFT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
ADD another 1/2-twist, for a total of 1 twist, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
ADD another 1/2-twist, for a total of 1.5 twists, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
ADD another 1/2-twist, for a total of 2 twists, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
REMOVE 1/2-twist, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
REMOVE another 1/2-twist for a total of 1 twist, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
REMOVE another 1/2-twist for a total of 1.5 twists, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
REMOVE another 1/2-twist for a total of 2 twists, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

If that is not enough compensation,
then,
we START to adjust the bowstring SHORTER.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> You are saying that you don't necessarily have to add/remove twists from both sides of the yoke at the same time? I've always wondered this.
> 
> Also curious about string twists, I was playing with chrono today and noticed if I took twists out of strings it lengthened draw length and gave more fps. If I added twists it will shorten draw length and less fps. I could get a difference of 15fps just from adding/removing twists to bow string. What I don't get is if I lengthen my fps went up but doesn't that also take away DW?



LENGTHEN the bowstring,
the draw weight goes UP.


----------



## IllinoisBamBam

Great post and I feel i learned something new today. when the new strings get here I will also be tuning like this. Thanks to goth Nuts&bolts and Wolbear for sharing.


----------



## OCOutdoors

I too learn something everyday, I thought shortening string made draw weight go up.


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> I too learn something everyday, I thought shortening string made draw weight go up.


Shorten the bowstring..

draw weight goes DOWN slightly,
and
holding weight goes UP slightly.


----------



## OCOutdoors

How much can string be untwisted and still be safe?


----------



## sjfuo

saved for later


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> How much can string be untwisted and still be safe?


Increase the draw length 1/4-inch
by untwisting the bowstring...MAXIMUM of 1/4-inch longer.


----------



## ontarget7

You have to be careful with untwisting it can cause instability in the string and peep rotation can be a problem. It is better to add twist than untwist for this reason. 
If you have to untwist to achieve your goal and have the problem with peep twist I would measure specs of untwisted string and order new ones to those measurements.


----------



## DeepFried

How can this process be done for binary cams? 

If this has already been explained a link would be great. 

Sent via satellite


----------



## OCOutdoors

ontarget7 said:


> You have to be careful with untwisting it can cause instability in the string and peep rotation can be a problem. It is better to add twist than untwist for this reason.
> If you have to untwist to achieve your goal and have the problem with peep twist I would measure specs of untwisted string and order new ones to those measurements.


So if I want a little more DW from my 60# DNA then I could order new strings slightly longer than what came with it?


----------



## nuts&bolts

DeepFried said:


> How can this process be done for binary cams?
> 
> If this has already been explained a link would be great.
> 
> Sent via satellite


Sooooooo,
I'm figuring you mean a binary cam bow,
with no yoke cables.

With no yoke cables,
we lose one tuning tool,
we cannot tweak the top axle,
can't pull down on the LEFT SIDE,
can't allow the RIGHT side to rise.

So,
when you look through my Kitchen Sink Tuning method...

then,
the NEXT STEP,
after tweaking the top axle...
max of 2 twists, top axle, LEFT SIDE...
max of removing 2 twists, top axle, RIGHT SIDE...

then,
we go to micro-adjusting the DRAW LENGTH.

Twisting the bowstring to reduce draw length 1/4-inch.
UNTWISTING the bowstring to increase draw length 1/4-inch.

Might need to adjust the DL even more.
Might need a 1/2-inch SHORTER fixed draw length cam, or DL module.
Might need a 1/2-inch LONGER fixed draw length cam, or DL module.

Might need a 1-inch SHORTER fixed draw length cam, or DL module.
Might need a 1-inch LONGER fixed draw length cam, or DL module.

WORK the draw length setting,
by tweaking the bowstring a 1/2 twist at a time.


RIGHT HANDED shooter?
Groups not as tight as you would like?
Bareshafts missing to the RIGHT of fletched shafts?

Go shorter.


----------



## DeepFried

Where may I find this "kitchen sink" method info? 

Sent via satellite


----------



## OCOutdoors

Does changing the amount of twists on cables effect DW or DL?


----------



## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> Does changing the amount of twists on cables effect DW or DL?


If we are talking a hybrid cam bow...

Hoyts
PSEs

anything with a buss cable (yoke cable) (Y cable) (cable with 3 end loops, and two end loops attach to the TOP AXLE)

then,
if you shorten the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)
then,
the axle to axle length will shorten.

When you shorten the ATA,
then the draw weight goes up
and
the DL also increases slightly.

I'm talking tweaking the buss cable say a twist or two shorter.


----------



## cjorg

Great stuff, I can't get enough!


----------



## OCOutdoors

cjorg said:


> Great stuff, I can't get enough!


Agreed. Lots of good info.


----------



## d_money

Marked for later great tuning thread


----------



## DeepFried

DeepFried said:


> Where may I find this "kitchen sink" method info?
> 
> Sent via satellite


????? 

Sent via satellite


----------



## bigmo101

DeepFried said:


> ?????
> 
> Sent via satellite


Look at post 5 and 15 of this thread.


----------



## Notvaporlocked

Marked as great reference


----------



## tntone

tagged again.... time to tune my Z7...


----------



## 152732

thanks


----------



## onlyaspike

tagged


----------



## Tony Trietch

tagged


----------



## ilhunter997

Tagged


----------



## havok

tagged


----------



## Ned250

tag


----------



## ctownshooter

hello all. new user but i been lurking for a while. just had to join. so much good info. i have a few questions after reading all this. i just picked up a 13 bear encounter, and its awesome, after shooting a used bear instinct for about 3 months, still a good bow. i got hooked on 3d after going with some friends at work. 2 questions right off: is this encounter tuneable as described in this post? and should i start with bareshaft tuning to get my form down packed before moving on to other forms of tuning? my bow is set at 65# and 28" dl. trufire wrist release and GT 5575 arrows cut to 28.5 with 100 grains field points. thanks in advance. Jeff.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> hello all. new user but i been lurking for a while. just had to join. so much good info. i have a few questions after reading all this. i just picked up a 13 bear encounter, and its awesome, after shooting a used bear instinct for about 3 months, still a good bow. i got hooked on 3d after going with some friends at work. 2 questions right off: is this encounter tuneable as described in this post? and should i start with bareshaft tuning to get my form down packed before moving on to other forms of tuning? my bow is set at 65# and 28" dl. trufire wrist release and GT 5575 arrows cut to 28.5 with 100 grains field points. thanks in advance. Jeff.


Hello Jeff:

First,
you need to purchase a portable bow press.

Then,
set the arrow rest to factory centershot position.

If you don't know what is this measurement,
loosen the sideways lock down bolt for the arrow rest.

Tape a SECOND arrow to the riser, at the same height as the arrow loaded on your arrow rest.

MOVE the arrow rest sideways,
until both arrows are DEAD parallel to each other.

Measure the edge to edge gap distance near the front of the two arrows.
Measure the edge to edge gap distance near the back of the two arrows.

MOVE the arrow rest sideways until you get the SAME exact measurement.

LOCK down the arrow rest bolt, sideways adjustment for now.

You are at a good starting point for tuning.


Now,
START with my KITCHEN SINK TUNING recipe FIRST.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

See Post #5.

Follow all the steps, IN order.


Then,
when you get to the END of KITCHEN SINK tuning..

then,
proceed to Post #15
and perform CREEP TUNING.

For a single cam bow,
since you have no control cable,
we will TWEAK the cam starting rotation position,
by
ADDING or REMOVING a half twist at a time,
at the BOTTOM of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops).

It makes a HUGE difference
in the TALL NESS of your arrow groups.


After you finish Kitchen Sink Tuning
and
After you finish Creep Tuning..

then,
let me know how you like your arrow groups.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> hello all. new user but i been lurking for a while. just had to join. so much good info. i have a few questions after reading all this. i just picked up a 13 bear encounter, and its awesome, after shooting a used bear instinct for about 3 months, still a good bow. i got hooked on 3d after going with some friends at work. 2 questions right off: is this encounter tuneable as described in this post? and should i start with bareshaft tuning to get my form down packed before moving on to other forms of tuning? my bow is set at 65# and 28" dl. trufire wrist release and GT 5575 arrows cut to 28.5 with 100 grains field points. thanks in advance. Jeff.


Arrows could be on the WEAK side.

See what happens at 60 lbs of draw weight,
if you get TIGHTER arrow group sizes.


----------



## ctownshooter

hello nuts and bolts. i forgot to add in my previous reply that i shoot left handed, so i have to figure out how to turn around all the info i read. already dl nuts and bolts pdf and loved it. looked for kitchen sink, glad you pointed it out. i was looking at the bowmaster bow press but was hesitant since my local bow shop is so very helpful. but i will get one. i will turn down the draw weight and let you know how that goes. have a 3d shoot tomorrow and update after that. it may take a week or two on the bow press since i have to have the adapters for my encounter. thanks to you and to all you guys on this site. glad i found it. lots of info. Jeff.



2013 Bear Encounter, Gold Tip XXT 5575,


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> hello nuts and bolts. i forgot to add in my previous reply that i shoot left handed, so i have to figure out how to turn around all the info i read. already dl nuts and bolts pdf and loved it. looked for kitchen sink, glad you pointed it out. i was looking at the bowmaster bow press but was hesitant since my local bow shop is so very helpful. but i will get one. i will turn down the draw weight and let you know how that goes. have a 3d shoot tomorrow and update after that. it may take a week or two on the bow press since i have to have the adapters for my encounter. thanks to you and to all you guys on this site. glad i found it. lots of info. Jeff.
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 Bear Encounter, Gold Tip XXT 5575,



Just think of your release forearm,
as a LASER pointer.

If the bow DRAW LENGTH is too long,
99 times out of 100...

for a LEFT handed shooter,
when you fire the bareshaft,
the bareshaft will miss the weighted string to your LEFT,
cuz your elbow is too far back around your head...

cuz your forearm (release side) is pointed NORTHWEST,
when you want to fire an arrow DUE NORTH.

So,
as you shorten the bow DL 
since you are LEFT HANDED,
then,
as long as you keep your bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as always,
then,
your RELEASE side forearm (think of a door)
will SWING around your shoulder joint,
and eventually,
your release side FOREARM will point DUE NORTH,
just like your arrow is pointed DUE NORTH.

We want to go from THIS...(mis-alignment)




to THIS


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> hello nuts and bolts. i forgot to add in my previous reply that i shoot left handed, so i have to figure out how to turn around all the info i read. already dl nuts and bolts pdf and loved it. looked for kitchen sink, glad you pointed it out. i was looking at the bowmaster bow press but was hesitant since my local bow shop is so very helpful. but i will get one. i will turn down the draw weight and let you know how that goes. have a 3d shoot tomorrow and update after that. it may take a week or two on the bow press since i have to have the adapters for my encounter. thanks to you and to all you guys on this site. glad i found it. lots of info. Jeff.
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 Bear Encounter, Gold Tip XXT 5575,



So,
if you paper tune,
since you are LEFT handed...

if your draw length is too long,
then,
YOU would get a RIGHT paper tear.


So,
much easier to interpret point of impact,
shooting at a string with a weight on the end.

So,
if a LEFT handed shooter,
fire a bareshaft
and it misses to the LEFT of the string...

then,
two options.

If you miss by a tiny tiny bit, say 1/2-inch or 1/4-inch,
you can fix this,
LEFT MISS of the bareshaft
by PULLING DOWN on the TOP AXLE, RIGHT SIDE,
with a half twist or a twist.

This will MOVE the bareshaft point of impact CLOSER to the weighted string.


Now,
if this is NOT enough correction,
we have to go to the BIG GUNS,
a MAJOR correction,
which means,
we tweak the draw length SHORTER,
if 

when you shoot a bareshaft,
it misses to the LEFT of the weighted string,
shooting only 5 FEET away.

EVERYBODY has 5 feet of shooting space in their garage.

This is why I developed this recipe.


----------



## sdstalker

marked


----------



## ctownshooter

thanks nuts and bolts. i prefer the string over paper tuning. most of my shots are touching the string at 3 yards but not consistent at 20 yards. also modified french tuning i am close but not dead on. have not done bareshaft but will this evening. i will have to work on that forearm and try to make sure my dl is correct. thanks this is a lot of helpful info. i know its going to be slow but sure hope to bring my 3d scores up with what i am learning. thanks again. Jeff.


2013 Bear Encounter, Gold Tip XXT 5575,


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> thanks nuts and bolts. i prefer the string over paper tuning. most of my shots are touching the string at 3 yards but not consistent at 20 yards. also modified french tuning i am close but not dead on. have not done bareshaft but will this evening. i will have to work on that forearm and try to make sure my dl is correct. thanks this is a lot of helpful info. i know its going to be slow but sure hope to bring my 3d scores up with what i am learning. thanks again. Jeff.
> 
> 
> 2013 Bear Encounter, Gold Tip XXT 5575,




So, if 3 yards is good for you,
but
20 yards not so good for you..

then,
practice at 10 yards,
and
practice at 12 yards,
and build up your control.


----------



## ctownshooter

okay lowered the dl by 1/2 " and turned the limb bolts out by 1 turn as i dont have a scale to measure dw. then after adjusting the rest to center as a starting point. i set up the string and after 30 minutes of adjustments i got this






. tweaked rest i little bit more and threw in some bs and got this






. so as it was getting dark i threw a few more bs at it to work on my form till my bow press gets in. went to the 3d shoot on yesterday and shot my personal best of 224 with 2 12s. i was happy to say the least. but i know there is room for improvement. will practice more with the bareshafts till the bow shop opens. also doing a lot more reading on this thread, whew, a lot of good info. can hardly wait to do the kitchen sink and creep tuning. thanks a lot nuts and bolts. Jeff


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> okay lowered the dl by 1/2 " and turned the limb bolts out by 1 turn as i dont have a scale to measure dw. then after adjusting the rest to center as a starting point. i set up the string and after 30 minutes of adjustments i got this
> View attachment 1684997
> . tweaked rest i little bit more and threw in some bs and got this
> View attachment 1685003
> . so as it was getting dark i threw a few more bs at it to work on my form till my bow press gets in. went to the 3d shoot on yesterday and shot my personal best of 224 with 2 12s. i was happy to say the least. but i know there is room for improvement. will practice more with the bareshafts till the bow shop opens. also doing a lot more reading on this thread, whew, a lot of good info. can hardly wait to do the kitchen sink and creep tuning. thanks a lot nuts and bolts. Jeff


Hello Jeff:

EXCELLENT.

*Shortened the DL 1/2-inch (AMAZING results...when you and your bow fit together just a little bit better).*

So,
Kitchen Sink tuning will dial everything in,
just a little bit tighter...left and right.

The Creep Tuning will dial in your ups and downs.

EXCELLENT progress.


----------



## ctownshooter

thanks nuts and bolts. i am still practicing with bs trying to get them to slap together, till my press comes. question about arrow spine. should i move up to GT 7595, or can i use 75 grain tips on my 5575s? i would like to keep the 65# dw if possible. with all this info i also might try to get my old bear instinct to shoot better till i sell it. thanks again. Jeff.


2013 bear encounter LH, nap quiktune 360, apex bone collector 4pin, trophy ridge 9"static stabilizer, trufire release


----------



## cloquet

ttt


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> thanks nuts and bolts. i am still practicing with bs trying to get them to slap together, till my press comes. question about arrow spine. should i move up to GT 7595, or can i use 75 grain tips on my 5575s? i would like to keep the 65# dw if possible. with all this info i also might try to get my old bear instinct to shoot better till i sell it. thanks again. Jeff.
> 
> 
> 2013 bear encounter LH, nap quiktune 360, apex bone collector 4pin, trophy ridge 9"static stabilizer, trufire release


Need all the specs.

So,
are we talking the 2013 Bear Encounter?
Draw weight = ?? 65 lbs?
Holding weight = ??

So,
currently GoldTip 5575s.

What is the raw carbon to carbon tube length?

What brand, model, length of vanes?

Currently using 75 grain field points.
Need all the info.


----------



## ctownshooter

oh sorry nuts and bolts. yes the bear encounter with 65# dw and 80% letoff. currently using gold tip 5575 at 27 inch from carbon end to valley of nock end with blazer 2 inch vanes and 100 grain field points.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> oh sorry nuts and bolts. yes the bear encounter with 65# dw and 80% letoff. currently using gold tip 5575 at 27 inch from carbon end to valley of nock end with blazer 2 inch vanes and 100 grain field points.


Soooooooo,
from Post #646...

"hello all. new user but i been lurking for a while. just had to join. so much good info. 
i have a few questions after reading all this. 
i just picked up a 13 bear encounter, and its awesome, 
after shooting a used bear instinct for about 3 months, still a good bow. 

i got hooked on 3d after going with some friends at work. 
2 questions right off: is this encounter tuneable as described in this post? and 
should i start with bareshaft tuning to get my form down packed 
before moving on to other forms of tuning? my bow is set at 65# and* 28" dl. *
trufire wrist release and GT 5575 arrows cut to 28.5 with 100 grains field points. thanks in advance. Jeff."

This is what we know.

1) Bear encounter 
2) Draw weight = 65# 
*3) Draw length was 28.0-inches, and now shortened to 27.5-inches*
3) Letoff = 80% 

4) Gold tip 5575 
5) 27 inches from carbon end to valley of nock end 

6) Blazer 2 inch vanes 
7) 100 grain field points or 75 grain field points


I THINK your arrows may be running stiff,
*since the raw carbon to carbon tube length is probably only 26.5-inches.*

*Need you to CONFIRM that draw length is now 27.50-inches.*


Try 125 grain field points,
and see if this makes your arrows MORE forgiving.

Play with point weight
and draw weight
to see what gives you the TIGHTEST arrow groups.

Probably need to go HEAVIER on the point weight.


----------



## ctownshooter

ok thanks nuts and bolts. i will work on that this evening when i get off. i have 125 grain field points i can throw on and see how that groups. i will update you on tomorrow. great info. thanks again. Jeff.


2013 bear encounter LH, nap quiktune 360, apex bone collector 4pin, trophy ridge 9"static stabilizer, trufire release


----------



## ctownshooter

ok thanks nuts and bolts. i will work on that this evening when i get off. i have 125 grain field points i can throw on and see how that groups. i will update you on tomorrow. great info. thanks again. Jeff.


2013 bear encounter LH, nap quiktune 360, apex bone collector 4pin, trophy ridge 9"static stabilizer, trufire release


----------



## ctownshooter

good morning nuts and bolts, and to all. i swapped out the 100 gr field points and put on 125 gr points and after about 10 minutes of setting centershot at 5' and 10 yds i got this,






. and at 15 i got this,






. so i turned the limb bolts in 1/2 turn and threw in some bs and got this,






. so after that i just worked on my long distance, 40-50, to try to get those tighter. the bow feels good now, so i got to work on the shooter. im still waiting on the bowmaster and adapters to come, so a lot of time to practice. thanks again for your info, im still reading too. Jeff.


----------



## ctownshooter

sorry for the double post. blame it on the newb.


----------



## aljburk

tag


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> good morning nuts and bolts, and to all. i swapped out the 100 gr field points and put on 125 gr points and after about 10 minutes of setting centershot at 5' and 10 yds i got this,
> View attachment 1686219
> . and at 15 i got this,
> View attachment 1686223
> . so i turned the limb bolts in 1/2 turn and threw in some bs and got this,
> View attachment 1686224
> . so after that i just worked on my long distance, 40-50, to try to get those tighter. the bow feels good now, so i got to work on the shooter. im still waiting on the bowmaster and adapters to come, so a lot of time to practice. thanks again for your info, im still reading too. Jeff.


EXCELLENT work, Jeff.


----------



## ctownshooter

Lmao. ok sorry. hello nuts and bolts and to all. got my bow press in today and have to say the bowmaster is great, just protect the limb ends when using the adapters, will rub the paint off. so i went to work, took 1/2 twist out of the right side y cable and added 1/2 twist to left side y cable. went to target and started kitchen sink at 5 feet, hitting string slight right, 2 clicks on the sight and splitting the string






. continued stepping back, 10 feet, 15 feet, 20 feet and at 10 yards






. speechless, and at 20 yards,






, unbelievable. its been a long time since i have consistently shot groups like this. the bareshafts show i still have some more work to do, but im heading in the right direction i think. all i can say is, WARNING, kitchen sink tuning could be hazardous to your fletchings and nocks,






. will have to continue tomorrow, got to go to the bow shop, running out of arrows. thank you, thank you, thank you, Nuts and Bolts, this is awesome. Jeff.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> WARNING, kitchen sink tuning could be hazardous to your fletchings and nocks,
> View attachment 1688153
> . will have to continue tomorrow, got to go to the bow shop, running out of arrows. thank you, thank you, thank you, Nuts and Bolts, this is awesome. Jeff.


Hello Jeff:

You are very welcome.

So,
maybe I am in CAHOOTS
with arrow AND VANE companies.

hehehehehehehehe.


----------



## Birdieman90

Hi nuts and bolts, 

I have a question that has nothing to do with bare shafts. I re-served the center serving and where the string contacts the stop, on my string and now my peep sight is rotating almost a full turn when I draw. I read what you had said about string energy and about untwisting or twisting the bottom end loop. Will this mess up the draw length? Thanks in advance!

Eric


----------



## ctownshooter

*food for thought*

hello all. okay i noticed something yesterday while shooting outside. it was very humid just after rain. so i was wiping my forehead with my right hand and without knowing it at first drew my bow back and could not keep my regular grip. the bow was sliding to a certain spot in my hand. needless to say my groupings were very tight at 20 yards, down from 4-5 inch to 1-2 inch. i had read about the greasy glove and i thought my grip was pretty good. but i found out quickly that i still need to work on that loose grip. the hand angle seems to be good but must be a little tight. will investigate this further.






, that first shot always seemed to be a flyaway, but still hard on fletching, gonna have to work on that.






just food for thought. Jeff.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ctownshooter said:


> hello all. okay i noticed something yesterday while shooting outside. it was very humid just after rain. so i was wiping my forehead with my right hand and without knowing it at first drew my bow back and could not keep my regular grip. the bow was sliding to a certain spot in my hand. needless to say my groupings were very tight at 20 yards, down from 4-5 inch to 1-2 inch. i had read about the greasy glove and i thought my grip was pretty good. but i found out quickly that i still need to work on that loose grip. the hand angle seems to be good but must be a little tight. will investigate this further.
> View attachment 1690487
> , that first shot always seemed to be a flyaway, but still hard on fletching, gonna have to work on that.
> View attachment 1690488
> just food for thought. Jeff.


Hello Jeff:

Cotton glove
and
wax your bow grip with some car wax.

That also works.


----------



## ctownshooter

thanks, Nuts and Bolts. i will try that. anything to get this Bear shooting better. Jeff.


----------



## Finq

Hey guys, my bare shafts are hitting low and veeerry slightly left. But low by a lot, at least 8" at 20yd. I'm guessing arrow rest is too low or nocking point too high?
I'm headed for the shop tomorrow and they'll take care of it I'm sure, just curious. 
I have almost no tools and little knowledge, so I can only tune my bow very sparsely at home. I've notice a lot of wear on my prong rest, so much that I think the arrow slid down deeper between the prongs and thus messed up my level arrow?

The arrows also entered the target at an angle. I'm guessing maybe 10-15°. 
Shooting 300 spine arrows out of a 65# bow, 28" DL, 28" carbon to carbon arrows. 40gr insert, 100gr tips. 125gr tips made no difference.


----------



## bigmo101

If its the bow in your signature... it will be with the can timing once your arrow is level.


----------



## Fury90flier

consider building a draw board--it will help with getting your bow setup...press, get a bowmaster--very inexpensive--then you'll be able to do your own work.

Prong rest...doubtful the eroded rubber will cause the problem you're talking about. Either you're timing is off, rest isn't even with the berger hole and or nock isn't at the proper height.

One thing you can check is tiller--I believe it's even on that bow. If tiller is good, rest puts center of arrow through middle of berger hole with a level arrow, and you're shooting low--likely, timing is off...this can be adjusted with tiller tuning...not ideal but it will work since you don't have a press.


----------



## Finq

So, I got the bow tuned and all set up nice now. My nock points (I know that's not exactly what you'd call them) was pinching and the arrow wandered upward on the string, giving me a high nockpoint. 
Cams were also desynched, the top one hit the stop 1-2mm later. 

Shot a bareshaft again after having it all worked out, now hitting slightly tail high but in the same spot as the fletched arrow. 
The guy in the shop suggested that maybe desynching the cams could help with this, but it would not be necessary. He also said that, unless I were to shoot big fixed blade broadheads, which I won't, bareshaft tuning is not as important or significant with compounds as it is with recurves. 
I trust the guys over there with all my equipment and I will leave it at that. I'm shooting bullet holes through paper and my bow's shooting way better than I can. Just wanted to share that with you guys.

My guess is the culprit was the nock point mostly, but also cam synch. The nock point was so bad, all my sight marks moved up about 7mm on my sight. Memo to myself, get a checker and maintain that better.

//edit:

About the Bowmaster bow press. I can actually buy that press over here for about 45euro. So, how well do these things work and how safe it is to work on your bow with it? For the bow mainly, not myself lol. That's really cheap and I'd like to be able to press my bow to simply put a different peep in for my multi pin sight or twist the string every now and again when cams go out of time or whatever.
Just not sure if I might mess up my bow with it if I'm not 1000% perfect with using it.


----------



## Fury90flier

I've been using the bowmaster for a year without any issues. For something that you can keep in the bottom of a tackle box, carry in your pocket etc. they're not bad to have. They can be a little combersome but that's about it...I use a socket wrench on mine---the little handle is a pain to use.


mess up your bow...doubt it. There are little leather pads you can put between the press ends and the limbs if you're worried about scratching the bow--I've never used them and don't have any marks on my bow.


----------



## Finq

I'm not too worried about scratches or the look of my bow... from the pictures it's hard to see how the press holds on to the bow once you press is, I feel like there might be a possibility that it slips off the limbs.
But I'm probably going to try it out, if it still seems fishy to me after putting my hands on it, I can still send it back.


----------



## rex1977

I use the bow master on my hoyt element no problems
It is difficult to take the limbs off but not impossible. Great for light maintenance peeps and cable adjustments 


Sent from my iPhone/Pad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fury90flier

it will depend on what bow you have. if it's the vector turbo, you'll need the adapters for it to work...think there are two types of adapers,. both attach to the end of the limb, if memory serves. If it's a solid limb, friction/pressure hold it in place.

Just do some searching on your bow with the bowmaster and you should be able to find the info you need


----------



## Reverend

Alan got a question for you.
Since you'r doing the vertical string test to remove lateral nock travel, why not also include a horizontal string test at short yardage to help set the nocking point height and eliminate vertical nock travel?


----------



## Rollie83

Saved for later


----------



## unistar

Move up


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan got a question for you.
> Since you'r doing the vertical string test to remove lateral nock travel, why not also include a horizontal string test at short yardage to help set the nocking point height and eliminate vertical nock travel?


Not a horizontal string,
but,
a horizontal strip of duct tape.

20 yards.

Creep Tuning.
Aim at the top edge of the duct tape.

The 5 foot test,
is a DRAW LENGTH test,
to help folks figure out,
beyond a shadow of a doubt...

that their draw length needs work
or
that their draw length does not need work.

At just 5 FEET,
just 60-INCHES...away..

we first set the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position,
so that the arrow is pointed DEAD straight ahead.

Then,
we goto the draw board,
and set the top cam lean to ZERO.

Then,
we adjust the arrow rest height,
so that the height of the arrow is ROUGHLY at the same height as the arrow rest mounting bolt.

These are starting points,
before we fire the first arrow.

So,
we tweak the sight pins windage setting,
so when you AIM at the vertical weighted string...

we HIT the vertical, weighted string.

I want folks to SPLIT the string fibers,
with a fletched arrow,
shooting ONLY 5 FEET AWAY.

So,

NOW,
we find out HOW MUCH steering correction
those vanes in back are providing.


IF your draw length is TRULY CORRECT,
if your draw length is TRULY in the sweet spot..

if your draw length is TRULY not hurting you accuracy-wise...

then,
you SHOULD be able to fire a bareshaft,
an arrow with ZERO,
steering correction...

and you SHOULD be able to hit that SAME
vertical weighted string.


Just had 45-ish seminar folks on Sat and Sun,
try out my 5 foot draw length test, in Iowa...

and have about 15 volunteer army of bench press folks and Hitaga Club members (setup and cooking)
go through my 5 foot draw length test
on Friday...

try this out.

Their motto became..."JUST TRY IT".


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan got a question for you.
> Since you'r doing the vertical string test to remove lateral nock travel, why not also include a horizontal string test at short yardage to help set the nocking point height and eliminate vertical nock travel?


What people find out is,
that if your draw length setting is more than 1/4-inch away from your draw length "SWEET SPOT"..

then,
it becomes impossible to hit the weighted string,
with a bareshaft arrow...

ASSUMING you grip your bow
normally,
the way you ALWAYS do.

So,
we TUNE the bow to the SHOOTER...

which means,
Darrell (P&y only) and team of merry men (operating about 5 presses)
was helping folks...

MICRO-TUNE the bow draw length,
1/16th inch
1/8th inch
sometimes a half inch..

sometimes MORE than a half inch...

to try and find that draw length sweet spot.

The seminar GOAL
was to get everybody's arrow group size CUT IN HALF.

Some folks,
dropped their arrow group size down to 1/3 rd.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan got a question for you.
> Since you'r doing the vertical string test to remove lateral nock travel, why not also include a horizontal string test at short yardage to help set the nocking point height and eliminate vertical nock travel?


Fixing the nock travel,
by working the cam sync...

MUCH EASIER to see the results of 1/2 twist adjustments,
when shooting at 20 yards,
at a horizontal strip of duct tape.

Depending on the skill level of the shooter,
depending on the arrow group size at 20 yards...

one fella,
shooting a single cam...

had a vertical,
telephone pole shaped arrow group.

4 arrow holes,
ONE arrow width wide...

the group had the arrows all STACKED on top of another,
literally looked like a telephone pole.

*4 arrow group was maybe 1.5-inches tall
maybe almost 1-inch tall.*

They pulled the target paper
and showed me the arrow group.

I said,
we have a cam sync problem.

They said,
this is a Mathews, single cam.


So,
I said the single cam,
is EXTREMELY sensitive to the cam starting rotation position.


So,
I said the FIX
is a half twist adjustment
at the BOTTOM of the buss cable.

TRY a HALF TWIST adjustment.

I know the answer,
in terms of what direction to go.

I want YOU, the shooter
and Darrell,
and his bow press crew,
to discover what direction is the right direction to fix this.

50 / 50 chance to get it right.

So,
every time I got a question
from the class room sessions...

I would direct folks to WHAT part of the bow to make an adjustment.

Then,
the fella asking the question,
what ask WHAT DIRECTION?

Then,
I repeat my SAME answer,
you have a 50/50 chance to get it right.


Then,
the entire room
would say...

"JUST TRY IT".


So,
the fix worked.

The "vertical nock travel" on a single cam
is COMPLETELY adjustable,
and

the shooter was absolutely VERY HAPPY with his results.


*20 yards makes it EASIER to see the results
of just a HALF twist adjustment.*


----------



## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Alan got a question for you.
> Since you'r doing the vertical string test to remove lateral nock travel, why not also include a horizontal string test at short yardage to help set the nocking point height and eliminate vertical nock travel?


Now
of course,
if the 20 yard arrow groups at 6-inches in diameter
or say 10-inches in diameter..

then,
this shooter will not see the difference in vertical nock travel,
with just a half twist adjustment.

This shooter has a much WIDER sweet spot,
for twists to a cable
so
we tune for the SWEET SPOT for vertical nock travel
based on the skill level of EACH shooter,
at the seminar.


If a shooter is shooting 1-inch TALL groups,
at 20 yards,
then,
just a HALF twist at the bottom of the buss cable
for that single cam bow,
we were able to get THIS shooter,
AMAZING results,
from a TINY adjustment.


----------



## thwackaddict

I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.

What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?


----------



## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.
> 
> What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?


A lot of these posts are for any bow,
with a yoke cable.

STEP 1: set the arrow rest sideways position so that your arrow is pointed DEAD STRAIGHT ahead.
............if necessary, duct tape a 2nd arrow to your riser
............load an arrow on the arrow rest
............bring the arrow rest arm to the FULL UP position
............move the arrow rest SIDEWAYS until the two arrows look like railroad tracks

STEP 2: build a draw board

STEP 3: confirm that you have ZERO top cam lean


----------



## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.
> 
> What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?


Do all of this BEFORE you fire your FIRST arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.
> 
> What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?


Now,
your first arrow
should be fired at 5 FEET.






MOve your sight pins
sideways until you GET this result...with a fletched arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.
> 
> What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?


Now,
your FIRST bareshaft,
should be fired at just 5 FEET.








IF YOU are not getting these BARESHAFT results
at just 5 FEET.
just 60-inches...

then
do NOT touch the yoke legs.


----------



## nuts&bolts

You have to FIRST
fix the bow draw length problem.

Work the draw length,
1/16th inch shorter
or
maybe 1/4-inch shorter
or
maybe 5/16ths inches shorter
or
maybe 1/2-inch shorter
or
maybe 1-inch shorter...

IF YOUR bareshaft is missing to the RIGHT of the weighted string,
just 5 FEET away.

Your bow draw length setting is correct for YOU,
ONLY when you can NAIL
the weighted string
just 5 feet away,
with a bareshaft.


----------



## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> I have a Hoyt Katera z3 cams(cam and a half bow). Buss cable has a yoke on top. After reading this thread I figured out that a lot of these posts are on single cam bows.
> 
> What would be a real quick rule for correcting bareshaft right and bareshaft low by twisting? Twist left yoke leg tighter and right looser? Take out a twist in the bottom of the buss.... or add a twist in the control?



AFTER you fix draw length,
and
AFTER you can nail a weighted string,
just 5 FEET away
with a fletched arrow
and
with a bareshaft arrow...

then,
if you are shooting at say the TOP EDGE of a horizontal strip of duct tape...

where the top edge of the DUCT TAPE is at YOUR shoulder height.
20 yards away..

then,
you have two options to adjust
VERTICAL bareshaft point of impact.

OPTION A) Play with half twist adjustments to the buss cable (bottom end loop)

or

OPTION B) Play with half twist adjustments to the control cable (cable with only 2 end loops).
Top end is easiest to get to,
on the control cable.




*FIX your draw length first,*
by trying my 5 foot draw length test.

AFTER you pass the 5 foot draw length test...

then,
see if you are having left-right bareshaft issues
(always fire at LEAST TWO bareshafts...)
(so you can see if you are consistent, and getting the EXACT same result TWICE...)

*try bareshafts at 5 yards..*.
then, try bareshafts at 10 yards...
then, try bareshafts at 15 yards...
then, try bareshafts at 20 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

AFTER you fix any draw length issues..

then,
AFTER you fix any SIDEWAYS miss issues with bareshafts and your fletched arrow groups...

then,
LASTLY
work on any UP-DOWN miss issues
between bareshafts and fletched arrow groups.

Bottom of buss cable
half twist adjustments will work.

Top of control cable
half twist adjustments will also work,
to change bareshaft vertical point of impact.


----------



## thwackaddict

Thanks a bunch. I have a press, draw board, string jig, stretcher combination. Last time I checked my bareshaft I was about 6" low at 30 yards. Slight rest adjustments weren't helping much. Had never heard of twisting to correct it.

Can't wait to give it a try now!

Thanks for all of the help!!!!! You da man!!


----------



## thwackaddict

In reference to post 690.

I am guessing that you can only check, or should I say adjust, cam lean on the top? (yoke on top none on the bottom)
(cable guard closer to top than bottom affects top more?)


----------



## aread

:thumbs_up For Alan's Kitchen Sink tuning. Once you get set up and run through it a time or two, it's fast. Yesterday I had to start over on the bow that I'll use for state outdoor this weekend. I dragged my press down to the lane where I was shooting and had bare & fletched shooting tight together @ 30yards in less than 30 minutes. 

Thanks for giving this to us Alan!!

Allen


----------



## nuts&bolts

aread said:


> :thumbs_up For Alan's Kitchen Sink tuning. Once you get set up and run through it a time or two, it's fast. Yesterday I had to start over on the bow that I'll use for state outdoor this weekend. I dragged my press down to the lane where I was shooting and had bare & fletched shooting tight together @ 30yards in less than 30 minutes.
> 
> Thanks for giving this to us Alan!!
> 
> Allen


Welcome.

Ran nearly 60 folks through my "methods" 
at the Iowa seminar.

Just detective work,
really,
to help folks find where they need a bit of tweaking,
so that they all hit their end goal for the seminar...

make their arrow groups HALF the size,
when they first arrived.

A few folks got down to 1/3rd the original size.
hehehehehe.


----------



## wpk

So If you split the string at five and 10 feet with your bare and your Fletch shaft
But not at 20 yards hits 3" to the right 
Walk back tune good to 80 yards 
And two twist in the left yoke and two twist in the right 
Is it still a draw length question
Thanks


----------



## thwackaddict

wpk said:


> So If you split the string at five and 10 feet with your bare and your Fletch shaft
> But not at 20 yards hits 3" to the right
> Walk back tune good to 80 yards
> And two twist in the left yoke and two twist in the right
> Is it still a draw length question
> Thanks


Thats what I would guess, but I am new to this super tuning.


----------



## thwackaddict

Or maybe a slight grip issue?


----------



## wpk

I Usually get 28.5 and take them out to about 28.75 
But got this bow used with 29" and it was a long 29" and I don't like the way the cam are rotated so far inward to get it 28.75
I ordered 4.5 for the pro comp we will see if that helps 

I have done this on several bows with great results
But this is the first time I've ever had an arrow go to the right instead of the left


----------



## ijimmy

Many bow manufactures do not use stadic split cables anymore , among them , darton , elite, g5 , mathews monster series , so if you are going to preach that bareshaft tuning is the end all be all of tuneing , you need to include techniques for these types of bows , or include a disclaimer .

Bareshaft tune was originally used for traditional archers shooting fingers , While I am sure that if a compound shooter that shoots a release can get this method to work for them they will shoot great , it does not work with all bows , and is not the answer for every situation , some bows will not shoot bare shafts and fletched arrows together no matter what you do , or how good an archer you are , does that mean that people should get rid of them , I think not

I see alot of this is covered , when I posted , I had seen only 2 pages , missed about 23


----------



## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> Many bow manufactures do not use stadic split cables anymore , among them , darton , elite, g5 , mathews monster series , so if you are going to preach that bareshaft tuning is the end all be all of tuneing , you need to include techniques for these types of bows , or include a disclaimer .
> 
> Bareshaft tune was originally used for traditional archers shooting fingers , While I am sure that if a compound shooter that shoots a release can get this method to work for them they will shoot great , it does not work with all bows , and is not the answer for every situation , some bows will not shoot bare shafts and fletched arrows together no matter what you do , or how good an archer you are , does that mean that people should get rid of them , I think not
> 
> I see alot of this is covered , when I posted , I had seen only 2 pages , missed about 23


The Mathews Monster series
has a non-adjustable yoke system.

So,
I have a modified method
to work for bows with non-adjustable yoke systems.

My modified method,
also works for the classic binary cam bows
which have no yoke cable.

Bareshaft tuning works for ALL bows.

Bareshaft tuning is a tuning tool,
and
the success of using bareshaft tuning, as a tuning tool
is a direct result of the shooting level of the shooter.

Just came back from Iowa
and taught 60 folks (45 seminar folks and 15 volunteers)
how to use Kitchen Sink Tuning,
how to use Creep Tuning
and
how to use bareshaft tuning...

to find out where to make adjustments
and everyone went away from the Iowa seminar
shooting better than when they arrived.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> Many bow manufactures do not use stadic split cables anymore , among them , darton , elite, g5 , mathews monster series , so if you are going to preach that bareshaft tuning is the end all be all of tuneing , you need to include techniques for these types of bows , or include a disclaimer .
> 
> Bareshaft tune was originally used for traditional archers shooting fingers , While I am sure that if a compound shooter that shoots a release can get this method to work for them they will shoot great , it does not work with all bows , and is not the answer for every situation , some bows will not shoot bare shafts and fletched arrows together no matter what you do , or how good an archer you are , does that mean that people should get rid of them , I think not
> 
> I see alot of this is covered , when I posted , I had seen only 2 pages , missed about 23


So,
when a bow has been properly FITTED
to the shooter...

and ONLY when a bow has been properly FITTED
to the shooter...

then,
bareshafts and fletched arrows will fly and have the same point of impact.

If a shooter can shoot say 3-inch groups,
at a particular distance...

and
if the VANES are not providing MASSIVE steering correction...

then,
a bareshaft
then,
several bareshafts
will also hit inside that same 3-inch diameter arrow group.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> Many bow manufactures do not use stadic split cables anymore , among them , darton , elite, g5 , mathews monster series , so if you are going to preach that bareshaft tuning is the end all be all of tuneing , you need to include techniques for these types of bows , or include a disclaimer .
> 
> Bareshaft tune was originally used for traditional archers shooting fingers , While I am sure that if a compound shooter that shoots a release can get this method to work for them they will shoot great , it does not work with all bows , and is not the answer for every situation , some bows will not shoot bare shafts and fletched arrows together no matter what you do , or how good an archer you are , does that mean that people should get rid of them , I think not
> 
> I see alot of this is covered , when I posted , I had seen only 2 pages , missed about 23



If a bow is NOT properly fitted to a shooter,
then,
the vanes provide a GREAT deal of steering correction.

This is when you see that same 3-inch group of fletched arrows
and
the bareshafts are usually missing OFF to the RIGHT,
for a RIGHT handed shooter.


So,
what this tells me,
is that the shooter with the 3-inch FLETCHED arrow groups...

actually 
has MUCH MUCH more accuracy potential...

cuz,
the bow has ROOM for improvement,
the bow has ROOM to be adjusted to fit the SHOOTER BETTER...than ever...

and
after the Iowa seminar,
lotsa folks learned my methods,
to figure out HOW to make the bow FIT THEM better...

and
after the bow FITS them better,

the arrow group size got NOTICEABLY smaller.


So,
no disclaimer needed.

Bareshaft tuning is ONE tool...to guide a shooter in a particular direction of adjustments,
to get to the end goal,
which is SMALLER arrow groups
which is TIGHTER arrow groups
which is reaching your TRUE accuracy potential.

ALL bows will "bareshaft" tune...

if the shooter learns a few things (adjustments to grip position, bow hand relaxation)
and
if the shooter learns how to tweak the bow settings to FIT better...

ALL bows will "bareshaft tune".


----------



## ijimmy

nuts&bolts said:


> The Mathews Monster series
> has a non-adjustable yoke system.
> 
> So,
> I have a modified method
> to work for bows with non-adjustable yoke systems.
> 
> My modified method,
> also works for the classic binary cam bows
> which have no yoke cable.
> 
> .


Could you please elaborate on that for the majority of archers , who do not have a static split cable . 

I totaly agree with you that coaching is what all new archers and many seasoned archers need , it is number 1 , and a good coach will do all he can to have his pupal shoot equipment that fits him to the tee , like shoes . Some are very set in their ways and refuse to here they are shooting a bow that is ,,, too long ,,, too short ,,, too heavy in poundage .


----------



## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> Could you please elaborate on that for the majority of archers , who do not have a static split cable .
> 
> I totaly agree with you that coaching is what all new archers and many seasoned archers need , it is number 1 , and a good coach will do all he can to have his pupal shoot equipment that fits him to the tee , like shoes . Some are very set in their ways and refuse to here they are shooting a bow that is ,,, too long ,,, too short ,,, too heavy in poundage .


Bareshaft tuning,
is really just another version of firing an arrow through paper.

So,
when paper tears get kinda small,
it can be hard to interpret results.

So,
firing an arrow with no vanes,
at a weighted string

it is very easy to see if you hit the string
or
if you miss to the string to the right or left.


So,
a bow with a non-adjustable yoke system
or
a bow with no yokes at all...

same difference.

So,
STEP 1: I like to start all bows with the arrow pointed dead straight ahead.
...........let's say we have a fresh bow out of the box
...........bolt on the arrow rest
...........now, we have to adjust the sideways position of the arrow rest

...........take a 2nd arrow and duct tape it tight to the riser
...........load an arrow on the bowstring and move the arrow rest sideways
...........until both arrows look like railroad tracks (dead parallel)

...........lock down the arrow rest. THIS is a rough starting point, and we fill fine tune LATER
...........no lasers needed.

STEP 2: now, we have to adjust the arrow rest height
............slide the arrow rest up or down
............until the arrow shaft centerline is ROUGHLY the same height as the arrow rest mounting bolt
............this is a ROUGH adjustment, a STARTING point, and we will fine tune later

STEP 3: I like to set the d-loop position
...........so that the arrow is DEAD level, when the bow is vertical
...........make sure your drop away arrow rest arm is in the FULL UP position

...........ALL arrows will want to fly level, if you start with the arrow LEVEL, when at full draw
...........if you set the d-loop nock HIGH....then, you FORCE the vanes to lift up the point end of the arrow to achieve LEVEL arrow flight

STEP 4: if you have a non-adjustable yoke cable system (Mathews Monster series)
...........if you have a binary cam bow with no yoke cables

...........well, then, we have no choice, but to just SKIP the yoke cable adjusting step for Kitchen Sink Tuning
...........we just move on to the next step for Kitchen Sink Tuning

STEP 5: Micro Tune your draw length to get the BEST results
...........so, we are at the 5 foot shooting step
...........with the arrow rest set to a sideways position such that the arrow is POINTED dead straight ahead

portable target at SHOULDER height.
use a folding table and a stack of boxes, and strap your target down.
middle of portable target needs to be at YOUR shoulder height.

This allows you to shoot a level shot, so the arrows will be LEVEL, when at full draw.


----------



## Fury90flier

Just one thing I wanted to add to Alan's comments regarding "proper fit". 

Just becasue this is "what I've always shot" doesn't mean it's correct

Just because someone at the shop said "that's right for your' doesn't mean it's correct

Just because "it feels right" doesn't mean that it is.


Go by the Nuts & Bolts suggested method of determining DL and you may be surprised at what your proper DL is. BTW, it helps if you can have someone watch your form or snap pics of you shooting-- It's real easy to have a bad habbit that bites you on identifying DL...for example, I have a tendency to lean back no matter what my DL is...comes from old school method of stance. When I have a proper stance, my DL is locked in but if I lean back, it's off and I fight for anchor. If I get DL and anchor adjusted for leaning back, my groups suck and so does tuning.


----------



## nuts&bolts

I used a spool of Dacron B50 bowstring.
Very skinny thread material,
and very loosely woven.

ONLY move your sight pins sideways in tiny amounts
or
ONLY move your scope sideways in tiny amount.

This is only 5 FEET.

You are aiming at a skinny width of thread
and you should be able to NAIL this skinny width of thread.

When you have your windage adjusted PERFECTLY,
then,
I KNOW you can hit what you are looking at...

just 5 FEET away.

Split the string fibers
if you can.

Should only take about 5 minutes or less.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Fury90flier said:


> Just one thing I wanted to add to Alan's comments regarding "proper fit".
> 
> Just becasue this is "what I've always shot" doesn't mean it's correct
> 
> Just because someone at the shop said "that's right for your' doesn't mean it's correct
> 
> Just because "it feels right" doesn't mean that it is.
> 
> 
> Go by the Nuts & Bolts suggested method of determining DL and you may be surprised at what your proper DL is. BTW, it helps if you can have someone watch your form or snap pics of you shooting-- It's real easy to have a bad habbit that bites you on identifying DL...for example, I have a tendency to lean back no matter what my DL is...comes from old school method of stance. When I have a proper stance, my DL is locked in but if I lean back, it's off and I fight for anchor. If I get DL and anchor adjusted for leaning back, my groups suck and so does tuning.




Yup.

Now,
the hard part.

The 5 foot DRAW LENGTH TEST.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> Could you please elaborate on that for the majority of archers , who do not have a static split cable .
> 
> I totaly agree with you that coaching is what all new archers and many seasoned archers need , it is number 1 , and a good coach will do all he can to have his pupal shoot equipment that fits him to the tee , like shoes . Some are very set in their ways and refuse to here they are shooting a bow that is ,,, too long ,,, too short ,,, too heavy in poundage .


After you tweak the sight pins windage...

AFTER you have your arrow rest sideways position adjusted,
so that your arrow is pointed DEAD straight ahead (use the two arrows railroad trick)...

now,
we go back to the 5 foot shooting line,
yes,
just 60-INCHES...

and we find out HOW MUCH steering correction
you were getting from those THREE vanes...

we fire a bareshaft arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

The truth is...

those THREE little vanes,
provide a GREAT DEAL of steering correction,
EVEN when only firing 60-INCHES away.

Through extensive testing,
I have discovered that if your draw length is even 1/4-inch TOO LONG...

your bareshaft will miss to the right of the weighted string.

Now,
this assumes NO CHANGES to how you stand, when you shoot (foot position).

Now,
this assumes NO CHANGES to how you place your bow hand
(use your normal, usual bow hand position).


So,
with a no-yoke binary cam style bow...

so,
with a non-adjustable yoke cam style bow...(Mathews Monster series)...

the only "TOOL" we have available
is to adjust the bow draw length setting
to MICRO-TUNE the draw length...on the bow...

to fit the shooter just a little bit better.

So,
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 1/16th inch...or
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 1/8th inch...or
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 3/16ths inch...or
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 1/4 inch...or
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 5/16ths inch...or
the adjustment might be to tweak the draw length say only 3/8ths inch...or

you get the idea.

Experimenting with your draw length settings...
playing with my 5 FEET draw length test....

you may discover your TRUE
your HIDDEN accuracy potential.

About 60 shooters up in Iowa,
just did.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sometimes,
folks pass the 5 foot draw length test...

and
then,
they try shooting bareshafts at 20 yards,
and now
discover that bareshafts will NOT group with their fletched arrows at 20 yards.

This is a BIG jump
from 5 FEET
to shooting bareshafts at 20 yards.

Usually,
there are weight balance issues (more weight on the REAR leg)
and
MOST times,
there are bow hand position problems (bow hand is too vertical...too much of the thumb muscle on the grip)
and
MOST times,
there are bow hand thumb muscle relaxation issues 
(fingers are straight out which puts tension in the thumb muscle...so the bow rolls off the rounded thumb muscle...bow torque).


So,
the
5 foot DRAW LENGTH test
is another tool of mine
to diagnose potentially
more accurate draw length settings.


----------



## ijimmy

Thank you very much , valuable info , will try your methods shortly.


----------



## RatherBArchery

all good info tagged for later


----------



## Feral buster

Hey guys I have a quick question. I have used the kitchen sink, bare shaft and creep tuning methods to great success on a number of bows but have always started from scratch. Now I have changed arrows from carbon express pass thru extreme to the blood sport ht1. Do I need to go back to the start with my tuning or simply adjust my rest for centre shot? Arrow lengths are the same, vanes are the same, arrow weights are 20 gr different and static spine is stiffer on the new arrows. 350 spine for the old arrows 300 spine for the new ones. Arrow flight out of the bow very clean slight point of entry difference at 40-60 yds closer distances too close to notice much variation any suggestions would be greatly appreciated


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## Reverend

Feral buster said:


> Hey guys I have a quick question. I have used the kitchen sink, bare shaft and creep tuning methods to great success on a number of bows but have always started from scratch. Now I have changed arrows from carbon express pass thru extreme to the blood sport ht1. Do I need to go back to the start with my tuning or simply adjust my rest for centre shot? Arrow lengths are the same, vanes are the same, arrow weights are 20 gr different and static spine is stiffer on the new arrows. 350 spine for the old arrows 300 spine for the new ones. Arrow flight out of the bow very clean slight point of entry difference at 40-60 yds closer distances too close to notice much variation any suggestions would be greatly appreciated


Not sure how Alan (aka Nuts N Bolts) would respond, but IMO, you definitely want to retune when you make any changes to equipment including: DW, DL, arrow spine or arrow weight, etc. Even something as small a a 10 gr. change can affect your tune. 
When you change strings, retune.
When you change peeps, retune. 
Even if your new D loop is different, retune. 

Granted some of these changes will not require you to start all over, but at the very least you want to start at the Creep tuning stage. 
In your case, since you changed arrow spine and weight, I would start from the Step 1: Tuning lateral nock movement (or shooting a bareshaft and fletched at a string)...


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## straight2it

Subscribed


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## OCOutdoors

I have had my bow bare shaft tuned for awhile and feel my bow is shooting very well and have had 2 robin hoods(30yrds)with this bow(first 2 I've ever had in all my years of shooting). Recently I decided to make a paper tuner just to see how it shoots through paper and I noticed that my arrows are shooting tail low. I found that if I moved my arrow rest down that I could correct it but had to move it too much that my BH would no longer clear the riser while pulling back. This is on a DNA and my nocking point is at the center of ata.


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## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> I have had my bow bare shaft tuned for awhile and feel my bow is shooting very well and have had 2 robin hoods(30yrds)with this bow(first 2 I've ever had in all my years of shooting). Recently I decided to make a paper tuner just to see how it shoots through paper and I noticed that my arrows are shooting tail low. I found that if I moved my arrow rest down that I could correct it but had to move it too much that my BH would no longer clear the riser while pulling back. This is on a DNA and my nocking point is at the center of ata.


TRY my SIX STEPS to Perfection.

Re-adjust the arrow rest HEIGHT so that the MIDDLE of your arrow TUBE is at the SAME height as the MIDDLE of your arrow rest bolts.
Then,
*for ANY tuning at 20 yards and LESS, leave the arrow rest height alone.*

Use my TWO ARROW trick to set the STARTING POINT for your arrow rest sideways position.














TAPE a 2nd arrow to your riser.

This is your DEAD straight ahead reference.

Now,
MOVE your arrow rest SIDEWAYS,
until the TWO ARROWS look like railroad tracks.

*THIS IS ONLY A STARTING POINT, before we fire the first arrow,*
for my SIX STEPS to Perfection tuning recipe.

During the tuning recipe,
we WILL fine tune the sideways position for your arrow rest.


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## nuts&bolts

The WHOLE story,
for my SIX STEPS to Perfection.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2128129&page=8

Should take you less than 2 hrs to get through ALL SIX steps.

STEP SIX is entirely optional (tuning your bow hand grip techinque).

STEPS 1-5 is tuning your bow.


The thread is just a SUMMARY of my SIX STEPS.

For full details,
let me know if you need MORE help.


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## Iowa shooter

Tagged


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## eskimoohunt

Great info


----------



## Keesey

I have a question that might be stupid (and honestly I dont feel like reading thru 30 pages right now) but in the original post they talked about bareshaft tuning out to 20 yards. Is it un-wise to bareshaft tune out to longer distances? Say 50 or 60 yards? Or at that point are you risking losing your arrows?

I understand if you can get your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting good at 20 your groups will be tighter over all, but if you can get your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting at longer distances in a sense wouldn't it give you crazy tight groups at that tuned distance and closer?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Keesey said:


> I have a question that might be stupid (and honestly I dont feel like reading thru 30 pages right now) but in the original post they talked about bareshaft tuning out to 20 yards. Is it un-wise to bareshaft tune out to longer distances? Say 50 or 60 yards? Or at that point are you risking losing your arrows?
> 
> I understand if you can get your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting good at 20 your groups will be tighter over all, but if you can get your bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting at longer distances in a sense wouldn't it give you crazy tight groups at that tuned distance and closer?


Bareshaft tune at 20 yards,
and confirm you are slapping the bareshafts and fletched at 20 yards.

Then try 25 yards,
then try 30 yards,
then try 35 yards,
then try 40 yards,
then try 45 yards,
then try 50 yards,
then try 55 yards
then try 60 yards.

IF you do it this way,
you won't lose any bareshafts in the weeds.

I shoot bareshafts at 60 yards.

If you are really good,
then bareshafts out to 90 meters (100 yards).


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## Larkinhjr

Bareshafts out to 60 wow is all I will say


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## OCOutdoors

I'm gonna have to give that a try. I originally did your steps of moving sight at 5yrds then moving rest at 20+yards.


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## nuts&bolts

OCOutdoors said:


> I'm gonna have to give that a try. I originally did your steps of moving sight at 5yrds then moving rest at 20+yards.


*Sight at 5 fEET or 1.5 yds*. Point blank distance.

Arrow rest at 20 yards or farther.


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## Reverend

Hello Alan. 
I'm having a few issues bareshaft tuning my Matrix. 
I set center shot to 3/4 in. as Shane (ontarget7) recommended, and arrow is 90 degrees running through center of plunger hole. 
After I creep tuned, I started playing with my grip and bareshaft tuning out to 20 yards. 
Bareshafts were hitting about 6 inches left (pointing right), and 6 inches low. 

After adding about 3 more twists to right yoke and removing another 2 from right leg, I finally got them close… though the yoke looks very offset (almost no twists on Left yoke, and tightly twisted on Right yoke). 

ADDITIONALLY, since bareshafts were hitting low, I had to take about 2 full twists out of the control cable, to get them to join the fletched shafts. Now they're impacting about the same but are a little nock high. The problem now is that the cams are mistimed by about 3/16 in. This doesn't seem right. Any insight? 
RH 60#
28in. DL
26 1/4 in. .400 spine Easton Flatlines, 100 gr. tip


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## nuts&bolts

Reverend said:


> Hello Alan.
> I'm having a few issues bareshaft tuning my Matrix.
> I set center shot to 3/4 in. as Shane (ontarget7) recommended, and arrow is 90 degrees running through center of plunger hole.
> After I creep tuned, I started playing with my grip and bareshaft tuning out to 20 yards.
> Bareshafts were hitting about 6 inches left (pointing right), and 6 inches low.
> 
> After adding about 3 more twists to right yoke and removing another 2 from right leg, I finally got them close… though the yoke looks very offset (almost no twists on Left yoke, and tightly twisted on Right yoke).
> 
> ADDITIONALLY, since bareshafts were hitting low, I had to take about 2 full twists out of the control cable, to get them to join the fletched shafts. Now they're impacting about the same but are a little nock high. The problem now is that the cams are mistimed by about 3/16 in. This doesn't seem right. Any insight?
> RH 60#
> 28in. DL
> 26 1/4 in. .400 spine Easton Flatlines, 100 gr. tip


www.nutsandboltsarchery.com

Custom coaching by the week or by the month.
Send me a pm, as to when you want to start.

This is going to take some detective work.


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## Iowa shooter

I read through most of this thread but didn't catch adjusting of Overdrive Binary Cam system on my Bowtech Specialist. Let's say hypothetically my bareshaft hits right of my fletched arrow. Below is a copy and paste from Alan on adjusting another cam system.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan had said:
IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
off to the right....

TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
and
UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...

REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My question is would I do this to the yokes at the top and bottom cam?


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## nuts&bolts

Iowa shooter said:


> I read through most of this thread but didn't catch adjusting of Overdrive Binary Cam system on my Bowtech Specialist. Let's say hypothetically my bareshaft hits right of my fletched arrow. Below is a copy and paste from Alan on adjusting another cam system.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Alan had said:
> IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
> off to the right....
> 
> TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
> and
> UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...
> 
> REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My question is would I do this to the yokes at the top and bottom cam?




When you PULL down on the TOP AXLE, LEFT side,
you are TWISTING the limb tips on PURPOSE,
and
two things happen:

a) the top metal thingy LEANS to the LEFT

b) the top metal thingy will now POINT NORTH WEST, when your front stabilizer is pointing DUE NORTH.

We are BENDING the bowstring,
with the groove around the TOP METAL thingy,
BENDING the bowstring towards the NORTHWEST direction, when your front stabilizer is pointed DUE NORTH.

Very VERY handy tuning feature,
the ability to PULL DOWN on the top axle, on ONE END.

No need to work BOTH ends of the top axle.

Soooo,
you can STEP 1 (trip to the bow press), 
pull down on the top axle, LEFT SIDE, say a half twist (ADD).


If you need MORE NORTHWEST correction...cuz your bareshafts are still flying NORTH EAST...

then,
STEP 2 (trip to the bow press),
allow the TOP axle, RIGHT SIDE to rise HIGHER, say by a half twist (UNTWIST).

If you need MORE NORTHWEST correction...cuz your bareshafts are still flying NORTH EAST...

then,
STEP 3 (trip to the bow press),
pull down on the TOP axle again, LEFT SIDE, say by a half twist (ADD).


----------



## nuts&bolts

Iowa shooter said:


> I read through most of this thread but didn't catch adjusting of Overdrive Binary Cam system on my Bowtech Specialist. Let's say hypothetically my bareshaft hits right of my fletched arrow. Below is a copy and paste from Alan on adjusting another cam system.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Alan had said:
> IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
> off to the right....
> 
> TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
> and
> UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...
> 
> REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My question is would I do this to the yokes at the top and bottom cam?




So,
if we want to also work the BOTTOM AXLE,
how do we WORK the LIMB TIP TWIST on the bottom axle,
to STEER the bottom metal thingy towards the NORTH WEST direction?


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## nuts&bolts

If you want the BOTTOM axle,
to TWIST the bottom limb tips,
to STEER the bottom metal thingy towards the NORTHWEST direction...

bottom axle, RIGHT SIDE,
*ADD a half twist*, to PULL UP on the *right end of the bottom axle*,
which pulls the RIGHT limb tip HIGHER
and the bottom metal THINGY will TURN towards the NORTH WEST direction.

This would be the FIRST trip to the bow press, for the bottom axle.

So,
if you need MORE NORTH WEST correction,
then,
on the SECOND trip to the bow press, for the bottom axle,
*UNTWIST* a half twist on the bottom axle, *LEFT SIDE*.


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## nuts&bolts

Think of the top axle
and the bottom axle...

like the wings on a 747 airplane.

You want to bank the airplane for a NORTH WEST heading?

DROP the LEFT wingtip,
and RAISE the RIGHT wingtip.

Top AXLE?
Want to TWIST the limb tips?

Want the bareshaft to fly MORE NORTHWEST?

Drop the TOP axle, LEFT side.
RAISE the TOP axle, RIGHT side.
ADD a half twist to PULL DOWN on the top axle, LEFT side....on TRIP #1 to the bow press.
REMOVE a half twist to ALLOW the top axle to RISE UP, RIGHT side.....on TRIP #2 to the bow press.

Drop the BOTOM axle, LEFT side.
RAISE the BOTTOM axle, RIGHT side.
REMOVE a half twist to ALLOW the BOTTOM axle to DROP, LEFT side....on TRIP #1 to the bow press.
ADD a half twist to PULL the BOTTOM axle to RISE UP, RIGHT side.....on TRIP #2 to the bow press.


NO different than flying a 747.


SINCE folks are all confused about "CAM LEAN"...
it matters (folks who have a yoke cable bow)
it doesn't matter (folks who do not have a yoke cable bow).

FOLKS,
yoke legs are JUST A TUNING TOOL.

If you can twist the LIMB TIPS ON PURPOSE,
then USE this tuning tool.

It doesn't hurt.

I promise.


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## Iowa shooter

Alan,
I did the first five steps of your six shooting steps. I can only shoot 15 yards in my house. Everything is good except for at 10 yards the bareshaft is nock left. The point of it and the fletched arrow are literally touching. Should I call it good? I have Bowtech Specialist with Overdrive Binary Cams.


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## nuts&bolts

Iowa shooter said:


> Alan,
> I did the first five steps of your six shooting steps. I can only shoot 15 yards in my house. Everything is good except for at 10 yards the bareshaft is nock left. The point of it and the fletched arrow are literally touching. Should I call it good? I have Bowtech Specialist with Overdrive Binary Cams.


Focus MORE on the point of impact.

I have an exercise I use with my online students.

FRESH piece of paper, or a target face.
Pin the target to the target.

15 yards.

Fire a fletched arrow.
PULL OUT THE ARROW.

You have a nice hole in the target.

Now,
back to the 15 yard shooting line,
and fire a fletched arrow.

PULL out the bareshaft arrow.
ONLY focus on the HOLES.

So,
if you have TWO holes SIDE by SIDE at 15 yards,
that is EXCELLENT.

FOLKS focus TOO much on the ANGLE of the bareshaft.

When you have a chance,
shoot LONGER range,
and try say 30 yards.

Same deal.
Fire a group of arrows and PULL the arrows.

Mark each fletched arrow hole.

Now,
fire 2-3 BARESHAFTS.
PULL out the bareshafts.
ONLY look at the position of the bareshaft HOLES
and the position of the fletched arrow holes.

EXAMPLE.

BEFORE arrow hole pattern.



AFTER STEP 1.



AFTER STEP 2.



AFTER STEP 3.




EACH of these hole patterns,
is 30 shots, with FLETCHED arrows.


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## nuts&bolts

Iowa shooter said:


> Alan,
> I did the first five steps of your six shooting steps. I can only shoot 15 yards in my house. Everything is good except for at 10 yards the bareshaft is nock left. The point of it and the fletched arrow are literally touching. Should I call it good? I have Bowtech Specialist with Overdrive Binary Cams.


YOu are in VERY good shape.

When you can,
shoot a LONGER distance,
and just LOOK at the position of the holes (fletched holes versus bareshaft holes).


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## nuts&bolts

If you truly have not so good bareshaft arrow flight...

at DOUBLE the distance,
the bareshaft arrow holes will move SIDEWAYS
away from the fletched arrow holes.

This way,
we can rule out POOR TARGET stuffing issues.


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## JRHOADES20

Tagged


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## aeasley10

What a great read, thanks for the wisdom that pours out of threads like these!


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## DIYArchery

Very useful info, thanks!


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## bluestreaker

Tagged!


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## lsmerrill

Tagged


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## Stab 'em

Thanks for another great thread Alan.


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## [email protected]

Alan, does creep tuning work the same for a twin cam? I read the entire thread, maybe I overlooked it.

Thanks!!


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> Alan, does creep tuning work the same for a twin cam? I read the entire thread, maybe I overlooked it.
> 
> Thanks!!



Creep Tuning works,
for ANY cam system.

The idea is to TEST and VERIFY
and find YOUR sweet spot for BEST results.

The PURPOSE of Creep Tuning is to FLATTEN your arrow groups.

BEFORE hole pattern, shooting 30 shots, with only ONE arrow in your quiver.
One of my STRESS tests, for my ONLINE coaching students.

The FRESH paper target records the GOOD shots, the BAD shots, and the UGLY shots....(GOOD, BAD, UGLY).




*AFTER CREEP TUNING...
which means, make the "TIMING" dots NOT MATCH...on purpose...
which means having the cams NOT HIT at the same time, ON PURPOSE.*



FLAT as a pancake,
is what you want,
AFTER you UN-SYNC your twin cam bow....ON PURPOSE.

For a twin cam,
two yoke cables,
mirror image metal thingies...

the top cam USUALLY hits LATE,
and the bottom cam hits FIRST.

Of course,
your mileage will VARY...

if you have surgically repaired bow hand wrist
if you have had double hand surgery (me)
if one collar bone is LONGER than the other collar bone...

there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule..

so THIS is why I TEACH...TEST and VERIFY
and find YOUR sweet spot.


----------



## bigdogjp

what is the proper way to do this to a two cam, two yoke system bow? lets just say a experience. Im wondering because it seems all the adjusting in this thred is happening to the top cam. now in my mind the bottom cam could also be causing left or right nock travel correct? is the idea to over correct top cam to compensate for bottom cam error or would alternating top cam & bottom cam adjustments be better? say adjust top adjustments then shoot bare shafts & if adjustment is still needed then adjust bottom cam. also if you do adjust bottom cam would this be oposite as top cam adjustment because the cam is upsidedown in relation to top cam? please help me undrstand my system better. now i know some of you bowtech guys have done this, what did you find?


----------



## nuts&bolts

bigdogjp said:


> what is the proper way to do this to a two cam, two yoke system bow? lets just say a experience. Im wondering because it seems all the adjusting in this thred is happening to the top cam. now in my mind the bottom cam could also be causing left or right nock travel correct? is the idea to over correct top cam to compensate for bottom cam error or would alternating top cam & bottom cam adjustments be better? say adjust top adjustments then shoot bare shafts & if adjustment is still needed then adjust bottom cam. also if you do adjust bottom cam would this be oposite as top cam adjustment because the cam is upsidedown in relation to top cam? please help me undrstand my system better. now i know some of you bowtech guys have done this, what did you find?


TEST
VERIFY
EXPERIMENT

Discover what happens when you twist or untwist the top axle, LEFT SIDE.
Discover what happens when you twist or untwist the top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

Discover what happens when you twist or untwist the bottom axle, LEFT SIDE.
Discover what happens when you twist or untwist the bottom axle, LEFT SIDE.

Just so happens,
I have a BowTech OverDrive on loan from Adam929,
so I can answer this EXACT question, for the DVD.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Now,
of course,
since we are talking BARESHAFT tuning...

this assumes you are doing the BARESHAFT Tuning and Testing
at a distance where YOU can smack two bareshafts together, again and again and again.

So,
do this TESTING and VERIFYING and EXPERIMENTING
only at a distance where you CAN get two bareshafts to hit together always..

so you can see the REAL effect of adding/removing a half twist from the yoke leg end loop, TOP AXLE, LEFT SIDE
so you can see the REAL effect of adding/removing a half twist from the yoke leg end loop, TOP AXLE, RIGHT SIDE
so you can see the REAL effect of adding/removing a half twist from the yoke leg end loop, BOTTOM AXLE, LEFT SIDE
so you can see the REAL effect of adding/removing a half twist from the yoke leg end loop, BOTTOM AXLE, RIGHT SIDE


----------



## bigdogjp

let me know if you need anotherone, i will send you mine hehehe. i have the dvd on order. waiting patiently. thanks


----------



## L8drop

Great Thread, marking for quick find.


----------



## Archerycrazy

Excellent Thread, marked


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## Fisher_dude

Bump for a great read. Just waiting on my press to fix some inconsistencies.


----------



## npbow

mark


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## IdahoGobbler

tagged


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## rsully661

What would be the process for if I didn't have yokes ???
My bare shafts are sidewYs and 7" left at 20yds but perfect bullet holes thru paper !!!! Driving me nuts ....


----------



## BowhunterCliffy

rsully661 said:


> What would be the process for if I didn't have yokes ???
> My bare shafts are sidewYs and 7" left at 20yds but perfect bullet holes thru paper !!!! Driving me nuts ....


Swap shims or order shim kit from Elite. You need to move your cams closer to the cable guard side of the bow by a little bit and that will bring your bareshafts in with FP's. Set rest to centershot and shim cams closer to cable guard.


----------



## wpk

BowhunterCliffy said:


> Swap shims or order shim kit from Elite. You need to move your cams closer to the cable guard side of the bow by a little bit and that will bring your bareshafts in with FP's. Set rest to centershot and shim cams closer to cable guard.


This is what I just did I hope the shims work 
If his shaft is hitting to the right and he has a bent cable rod he can try moving it to the right


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## BowhunterCliffy

wpk said:


> This is what I just did I hope the shims work
> If his shaft is hitting to the right and he has a bent cable rod he can try moving it to the right


I have had numerous 2-track binary cam bows and had bareshafts hitting way right, (lh shooter), on a few of them,
and shimming cams toward the cable guard just a bit completely fixed bareshaft flight on them every time.


----------



## wpk

BowhunterCliffy said:


> I have had numerous 2-track binary cam bows and had bareshafts hitting way right, (lh shooter), on a few of them,
> and shimming cams toward the cable guard just a bit completely fixed bareshaft flight on them every time.


Well it worked this is a 20 yards


----------



## cdsamm

Marked for later


----------



## rsully661

BowhunterCliffy said:


> Swap shims or order shim kit from Elite. You need to move your cams closer to the cable guard side of the bow by a little bit and that will bring your bareshafts in with FP's. Set rest to centershot and shim cams closer to cable guard.


Fixed it with grip and Saunders hyper glide . Hitting low by 2-3 inches At 20??


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## bowhuntercoop

Can sync is out of time and bottom cam is over rotated


----------



## wolbear

bowhuntercoop said:


> Can sync is out of time and bottom cam is over rotated



Wish it was this easy, however, cam sync does not usually adhere to left and right misses. Even if cam sync if cam sync is close, the difference in cam sync will give you high and low misses. Left and right are caused by misalignment of the center shot and cams.


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## bowhuntercoop

Right he said he's shooting 2-3 inches low now.


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## rsully661

Gonna extend my draw length and work on form as well , will retune the cams at time of mod swap.


----------



## Fisher_dude

Thought that I would show you my bareshaft tuning results. I read through this whole thread and took what I learned and put it to good use. Through my tuning, I realized I had a less than great grip so I experimented with new grip position and found one that I can repeat every time. I never once touched my pins after 5 feet or my rest after after 10 yards. Both those settings were bang on when I went outside to shoot some bareshafts at 20. Most of the holes in the target are the result of the factory tune of my bow. A few of them are from the wifes bow as well but all the ones that are off to the sides and high were bareshaft shots from my bow. I tweaked the yoke a final 1/2 turn in and out on both sides this morning after shooting 2" to the right and that brought everything into alignment. I had a dozen unfletched arrows that I was working with. After I grouped the bareshafts together, I fletched some up and they hit the exact same place as the bareshaft. Overall, im pretty effen stoked considering I had to build a press just to get to this point. Hopefully this helps me take my shooting to the next level. Just have to sight in at longer distances and ill be ready to shoot my first 3D of the season on sunday. Bow is a Carbon Spyder Turbo at 72 lbs. 30" draw. 458gr Easton axis. Havent run it through a chrony yet but its gotta be over 300fps.


----------



## wpk

Fisher_dude said:


> Thought that I would show you my bareshaft tuning results. I read through this whole thread and took what I learned and put it to good use. Through my tuning, I realized I had a less than great grip so I experimented with new grip position and found one that I can repeat every time. I never once touched my pins after 5 feet or my rest after after 10 yards. Both those settings were bang on when I went outside to shoot some bareshafts at 20. Most of the holes in the target are the result of the factory tune of my bow. A few of them are from the wifes bow as well but all the ones that are off to the sides and high were bareshaft shots from my bow. I tweaked the yoke a final 1/2 turn in and out on both sides this morning after shooting 2" to the right and that brought everything into alignment. I had a dozen unfletched arrows that I was working with. After I grouped the bareshafts together, I fletched some up and they hit the exact same place as the bareshaft. Overall, im pretty effen stoked considering I had to build a press just to get to this point. Hopefully this helps me take my shooting to the next level. Just have to sight in at longer distances and ill be ready to shoot my first 3D of the season on sunday. Bow is a Carbon Spyder Turbo at 72 lbs. 30" draw. 458gr Easton axis. Havent run it through a chrony yet but its gotta be over 300fps.


Nice great job


----------



## nuts&bolts

fisher_dude said:


> thought that i would show you my bareshaft tuning results. I read through this whole thread and took what i learned and put it to good use. Through my tuning, i realized i had a less than great grip so i experimented with new grip position and found one that i can repeat every time. I never once touched my pins after 5 feet or my rest after after 10 yards. Both those settings were bang on when i went outside to shoot some bareshafts at 20. Most of the holes in the target are the result of the factory tune of my bow. A few of them are from the wifes bow as well but all the ones that are off to the sides and high were bareshaft shots from my bow. I tweaked the yoke a final 1/2 turn in and out on both sides this morning after shooting 2" to the right and that brought everything into alignment. I had a dozen unfletched arrows that i was working with. After i grouped the bareshafts together, i fletched some up and they hit the exact same place as the bareshaft. Overall, im pretty effen stoked considering i had to build a press just to get to this point. Hopefully this helps me take my shooting to the next level. Just have to sight in at longer distances and ill be ready to shoot my first 3d of the season on sunday. Bow is a carbon spyder turbo at 72 lbs. 30" draw. 458gr easton axis. Havent run it through a chrony yet but its gotta be over 300fps.


well done!


----------



## wolfgang510

I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.

Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


BEFORE you fire the first arrow,
and if your bow has yoke cables...

set the top cam lean angle to ZERO, when at full draw. This is a good starting point, before you fire arrows to fine tune things.

If you have a bow with NO yoke cables, well,
then, of course,
you skip this step.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Next,
assuming we just pulled the bow out of the box,
slap on the arrow rest and sight.

So,
we have to pick a starting sideways position for your arrow rest,
BEFORE you fire the first arrow.

I say move the arrow rest sideways until the arrow is pointing the SAME direction as your front stabilizer.

We will fine tune LATER.

Set the arrow rest height,
so that the middle of the arrow rest TUBE is at the same height as the middle of your arrow rest bolts.

We will fine tune arrow rest height LATER.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Sooo,
gotta install a d-loop SOMEWHERE...on the center serving.

WHERE?
HOW HIGH?

SHORT answer....whatever floats your boat.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?



Sit in a chair,
put the bottom cam in your lap,
and hold the bow vertical,
so your front stabilizer is horizontal.

Sooooo,
you have several options...

a) set d-loop height so that the arrow is level

or

b) set d-loop height so that the arrow nock is HIGHER than level

....soooo, maybe YOU think or heard that the nock set at 1/16th HIGHER than a level arrow is GOOD...go for it.
....soooo, maybe YOU think or hear that the nock set at 1/8th HIGHER than a level arrow is GOOD...go for it
.....soooo, maybe YOU think or hear that the nock set at 3/16ths HIGHER than a level arrow is GOOD...go for it

WHATEVER floats your boat,
for d-loop position.

PICK something, pull TIGHT with needlenose pliers (spread the jaws) and lock down your d-loop,
and leave it alone.

We need SOMETHING to not change,
during tuning...a REFERENCE point.

We will tune your cam sync LATER,
to make whatever d-loop position you PICKED...

to make it work (level nock travel).


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Sooo,
now you have the STARTING SIDEWAYS position for your arrow rest set.

Soooo,
now you have the STARTING VERTICAL position for your arrow rest set.

Sooo,
now you have picked a position for your d-loop.

You slapped on your sight.

NOW WHAT?


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Sooo,
I say,
the FIRST thing we do,
is fire a fletched arrow at a target 2 YARDS away.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


2 YARDS?

Yup,
2 YARDS. Some thing bRAIN DEAD SIMPLE and SUPER DUPER close.

HAng a string from a nail in your target.
Plumb bob. Put a weight on the end.

Vertical reference.

With your arrow rest set, so the SIDEWAYS position of your arrow rest has your arrow pointing DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD,
just like your front stabilizer...

now,
we adjust your sight pins windage (sideways setting)
so that you can HIT what you are looking at....the PLUMB BOB string.

Fire your fletched arrow
and tweak your SIGHT PINS until you get THIS RESULT.





When you get THIS result,
at 2 YARDS...just 6 FEET...

then you KNOW you can hit what you are looking at...just 2 YARDS away.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


NEXT,
I want you to find out HOW HARD,
how much STEERING CORRECTION your vanes are providing,
flying just 2 YARDS away.

Take a knife and strip off your vanes. Leaving the base behind is AOK.

TRY the shot again,
just 2 YARDS away.

NO BIG DEAL right?

HOW much STEERING CORRECTION could 3 itty bitty vanes provide?

Its ONLY 6 FEET.

RIGHT?


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?



WELL,
let's find out,
shall we?






Shoot your normal shot,
nothing SPECIAL...
no CHANGES to your bow hand GRIP technique....

let's see what happens
with an arrow with ZERO STEERING CORRECTION,
firing a bareshaft
at a string,
just 2 YARDS away.

If you get the bareshaft to touch the string,
just 2 YARDS away,
then...

you are doing just fine.

If you cannot get a bareshaft to touch a string
just 2 YARDS away...

then,
there is work we need to do to your bow (draw length wise)
and there is work we need to do to you (shooting posture).


----------



## nuts&bolts

So,
let's assume that your fletched and your baresahft arrows
have ZERO problems hitting a plumb bob string just 2 YARDS away.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?



So,
since you tweaked your SIGHT PINS shooting at the plumb bob string,
just 2 YARDS away...

then
we now goto long range...

20 yards or 40 yards or 60 yards...

the LONGER the distance,
the better.

So,
let's say you only have access to 20 yards.

That's ok.

FIRE a group of fletched arrows.

NOW,
we tweak, we FINE TUNE the sideways position of your arrow rest.

So,
if your GROUP of fletched arrows is MISSING the bullseye to the LEFT,
move the arrow rest in TINY amounts to the right.

So,
if your GROUP of fletched arrows is missing the bullseye to the RIGHT,
move the arrow rest in TINY amounts to the LEFT.

The LONGER the shooting distance,
the FINER you can tune the SIDEWAYS position of your arrow rest.

TWEAK the sideways position of the arrow rest
until your arrow groups are CENTERED on top of the bullseye.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


NOTICE how up to this point,
we have NOT TOUCHED the yoke legs?

There is a reason for that.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


So,
you tweak the sideways position of your arrow rest,
shooting at LONG range...

maybe 20 yards,
maybe 60 yards..

whatever long range distance you can shoot.

So,
arrow rest SIDEWAYS position is now FINE TUNED.

WHAT NEXT?


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Let's play with a bareshaft again.

DUCT TAPE shooting line.

ONLY 1 YARD away from the target.

Fresh target face.

Yes,
3 FEET, just 1 YARD.

FIRE a fletched arrow. JUST ONE.
PULL it out.

You now have a hole, ONE HOLE in the target.

Sooooo,
same aiming point,
fire a BARESHAFT.

GOAL of this TEST?

BARESHAFT has to hit the SAME HOLE.

*If you cannot STUFF a bareshaft into the SAME HOLE
just 1 YARD away...

you are not ready to do bareshaft tuning.*


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Bareshaft tuning ONLY WORKS,
at a distance where YOUR SKILL LEVEL permits bareshaft tuning with consistent results.

So,
most folks have no trouble stuffing a BARESHAFT
into the SAME hole as the fletched arrow hole...

shooting from a duct tape shooting line,
just 1 YARD away from the target.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Sooo,
now let's try 4 yards.

Fresh target face, or pick a NEW aiming spot. Mark your aiming spot with a sharpie pen.

FIRE a fletched arrow from a duct tape shooting line, just 4 YARDS away.

Hang up your bow
and PULL OUT THE FLETCHED ARROW.

Back to the 4 yard shooting line.
Fire a bareshaft, using the SAME AIMING POINT.

Did the bareshaft HIT THE SAME EXACT HOLE?


----------



## nuts&bolts

If the bareshaft hits HIGHER or LOWER than the FLETCHED arrow hole...

firing from a duct tape shooting line, 4 YARDS away...

then,
we have some cam SYNC work to do.

TWEAK your cam sync,
UN SYNC your cams ON PURPOSE,
until you get the bareshaft to HIT at the SAME height,
as the FLETCHED arrow hole....

and ideally,
get your BARESHAFT to STUFF into the SAME hole as the FLETCHED arrow,
shooting from a duct tape shooting line 4 yards away.


THIS should keep you busy for a while.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wolfgang510 said:


> I apologize if this is somewhere else in the thread.
> 
> Where does modified french tuning fit it? Do you modified french tune to set centershot and after that switch to bareshat and yoke tune? Or do you set the centershot to spec (13/16 or whatever) and go straight to bareshaft tuning and then french tune after that?


Sooo,
TRY all these steps,
take pHOTOS of your progress
at each step...

and when you can STUFF a bareshaft into the SAME hole as the FLETCHED arrow hole...
from a duct tape shooting line just 4 YARDS away...

then,
come back for the NEXT STEPS.


----------



## wilienayler

Alan,

Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.

Thanks


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


Sooo,
BEFORE you fire the FIRST arrow,
when setting up a brand spanking new bow,
fresh out of the box....

IF you have yoke cables,
then,
a GOOD starting point, to save you time when tuning your bow,
is to set the yoke legs,
so you START with zero cam lean,
when at full draw.

This basically means,
you have the yoke legs adjusted (ONE must be shorter...ONE must be longer)
to have a dead LEVEL top axle,
and to have a DEAD VERTICAL top cam,
with ZERO limb tip twist.

It's an extra step, that I recommend to folks,
takes just a couple of minutes,
and will save you time and give you better tuning results
in the LONG run.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


So,
helps to build a pulling device
that will keep the bow SAFELY at full draw,
HANDS free.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


Here is my hands free bow pulling device,
which keeps the bow SAFELY at full draw.


----------



## nuts&bolts




----------



## nuts&bolts

There you go.
HANDS FREE bow pulling device,
to keep your bow at full draw,
and you have BOTH HANDS FREE
to take your sweet time,
and take any and all kinds of measurements.

So,
your bow is at full draw...SAFELY,
and you can walk away and answer the phone,
you can go grab your tape measure,
you can go grab whatever you need....

and the bow stays at FULL DRAW.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


So,
the bow is close to FULL draw in the hands free bow pulling device
and you TURN the turnbuckle
and sneak up on full draw, one TWIST of the turnbuckle at a time.

So,
now your bow is at full draw.

What NEXT?

We check to see if the top axle is LEVEL,
when the bow riser is vertical...basically checking for SQUARE on the top axle...

or,
as is usually the CASE,
the TOP AXLE is NOT square to the riser
and ONE END of the TOP AXLE is LOW.

Sooo WHAT?


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


A TOP AXLE that is SQUARE to the riser
is OVER-RATED....

only on ArcheryTalk,
do you see folks talking about making sure that the TOP AXLE is SQUARE to the riser.

Soooo,
DOES it MATTER....if your top axle is NOT SQUARE to the RISER,
before you go and shoot lots and lots of arrows..

and wonder WHY your groups are NOT as TIGHT as you THINK they should be?

Only one way to FIND OUT.

JUST TRY IT.

your choice,
is getting your TOP AXLE SQUARE to the RISER
is too much trouble....

or if you want to find out what MIGHT happen,
if you take this TINY, ITSY BITSY extra step...

BEFORE your fire your first arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

wilienayler said:


> Alan,
> 
> Can you give a break down on how you zero cam lean.
> 
> Thanks


Sooo,
you up and did it.

You purchased a boat winch.

You made a backbone to mount the boat winch on one end.
You figured a way to attach the 1/2-inch diameter threaded pipe nipple to the other end.
You went and purchased a turn buckle.

You found a length of paracord, and make a backup loop, just in case the d-loop lets go,
when you are using your PULLING device...the HANDS FREE version.

So,
now your bow is at full draw,
in the HANDS FREE PULLING device.

So,
NOW what?

You pull out an arrow.


----------



## nuts&bolts

An arrow is the worlds straightest ruler,
and you happen to have at least 12 rulers in your quiver.

How do I check if the TOP AXLE is square to the riser?

How do I check to see if ONE end of the top axle is TOO LOW?


----------



## nuts&bolts

I used twist ties to tie the arrow to the cam,
cuz I had to take a photo.

WHY TWO arrows?

Cuz somebody said that ONE SIDE of his cam was bent (like a taco....like a potato chip)
and said that the OTHER side of his cam was straight.

I said, NOT possible.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooo,
PINCH one arrow tight to the side of your top cam,
and that is more than good enough.

IF you have a top axle that is SQUARE to your riser...

then,
the EDGE of the ARROW and the EDGE of the bowstring
will be DEAD PARALLEL...like two railroad tracks.


----------



## nuts&bolts

If you PINCH an arrow TIGHT to the side of the cam,
and the arrow runs UNDER the bowstring,
then...
your top axle is NOT SQUARE to the riser,
then, ONE END of your top axle is TOO LOW
then,
this means ONE of your yoke legs is TOO SHORT.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooo, what?

Who cares about a TOP AXLE that is not SQUARE to the riser?

YOU CARE.

Why?

Cuz, when the top axle is TOO LOW on one end,
then,
the top cam is tilted to one SIDE.

SOOO WHAT?

Well,
when you have the top axle LOW on one side,
then,
you are TWISTING the limb tips, so ONE corner of the limb tips is TOO LOW.

SOO WHAT?

Well,
when one corner of the limb tips are too LOW,
then,
you twist the limb tips..

then,
the cam is leaning to ONE side...

and the CAM is no LONGER POINTING DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD,
and you are PULLING the bowstring SIDEWAYS
and you are going to have SIDEWAYS nock TRAVEL
and
YOUR
ARROW
GROUPS
WILL
BE
WIDER
than
*YOUR TRUE accuracy potential...
and your BROADHEADS will fly SIDEWAYS.*


Soooo,
taking the few extra minutes to CHECK to see if your TOP AXLE is SQUARE to the riser...

and putting the bow into your portable bow press
to adjust the yoke legs
so that the TOP AXLE is SQUARE to the RISER...

this is an EXTRA STEP,
a GOOD STARTING POINT...

before you FIRE THE FIRST ARROW..during tuning.

SAVES YOU TIME...during the TUNING..

*when you ON PURPOSE,
will fine tune the YOKE LEGS,
maybe a 1/2 TWIST AWAY from a SQUARE TOP AXLE...

maybe 1 FULL TWIST away from a SQUARE TOP AXLE...
to get the BEST arrow group sizes in your LIFE.*


----------



## nuts&bolts

People get CARRIED AWAY and twist up the YOKE LEGS...

MUCH TOO MUCH,
to compensate for a draw length that is WAY TOO LONG....for proper arrow flight.

When tuning at 20 yards and SHORTER distances,
I prefer to teach folks to leave the yoke legs alone,
and work on form,
and work on fine tuning DRAW LENGTH for BEST results.

AFTER draw length is sorted out,
then,
when tuning at 40 yards and 60 yards,
THEN,
I recommend making TINY TINY changes to the yoke legs
to shrink arrow group size,
with a half twist or a full twist (not much)
in the yoke legs.

But,
there are HUNDREDS of ways to cut your arrow group size in HALF.

I have my system that I teach to my students.

*There are other systems....
hundreds of ways to get to the end result.*


----------



## 8up

I decided to give this method a try. This is 20 yards. What steps would you take at this point??


----------



## 8up

I decided to give this method a try. This is 20 yards. What steps would you take at this point??


----------



## nuts&bolts

8up said:


> I decided to give this method a try. This is 20 yards. What steps would you take at this point??


Control cable.

1 yard duct tape shooting line.
Chest high target. Fresh target face.

Fire a fletched arrow. Make a single hole.
Pull the arrow.

Fire a bareshaft, same aiming point, and see if you can STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME hole,
you just made, with the fletched arrow.

Now,
step back to 5 yards.

Fire a fletched arrow.
Pull the FLetched arrow.
Fire a bareshaft from the 5 yard duct tape shooting line.

IF YOU DO NOT STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME hole, from the fletched arrow,
work the control cable (add or remove a half twist)
UNTIL YOU CAN STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME hole, from the fletched arrow.

Do this 30 times,
firing a single bareshaft arrow
into the SAME hole, as the fletched arrow hole,
from a 5 yard shooting line.

Then,
try 6 yards.

Fire a fletched arrow at an aiming point, and make a FRESH hole. Mark this hole.
Now, fire a bareshaft arrow and STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME hole, as the fletched arrow hole.

Repeat with a single bareshaft,
and STUFF the bareshaft into the same fletched arrow hole, 30 shots in a row.

When you master 6 yards,
then try 7 yards.

You get the idea.


----------



## nuts&bolts

As the distance gets LONGER and LONGER,
it is LESS about tuning the control cable,
and MORE about tuning the SHOOTER EXECUTION consistency.

When you MASTER this technique,
you will get results like cnvf250...at 22 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

8up said:


> I decided to give this method a try. This is 20 yards. What steps would you take at this point??


Sooo,
you do not give this method a try at 20 yards.

You MASTER the technique at 1 YARD,
stuffing the bareshaft into the SAME hole, you just made, with a fletched arrow.

Then,
you try 5 yards,
and maybe you tweak the control cable a half twist,
or maybe a full twist..

and you STUFF a bareshaft into the same hole, you just made
in a fresh target, with a fletched arrow. Repeat at least 30 shots,
with ONE bareshaft...fire the bareshaft, STUFF the bareshaft into the same hole as the fletched arrow...

hang up the bow, pull the bareshaft,
do it again, and STUFF the bareshaft into the same hole as the fletched arrow.

When you can stuff the bareshaft into the same hole as the FLETCHED arrow,
30 times in a row....
then,

try at 6 yards.

When you can stuff a bareshaft into the same hole as the FLETCHED arrow, 30 times in a row,
then,
try 7 yards.

MASTER 7 yards,
then, try 8 yards.

MASTER 8 yards,
then try 9 yards.

MASTER 9 yards,
getting the bareshaft into the SAME HOLE as the FLETCHED arrow....

then,
see how far you can go,
getting a BARESHAFT to hit the SAME hole,
you must made with the FLETCHED arrow in a FRESH portion of the target.

At this point,
you are building SHOOTER SHOT EXECUTION consistency,
and LESS about tweaking the bow.

When you MASTER SHOOTER execution consistency,
then,...

you will get results like cnvf250...at 22 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

8up said:


> I decided to give this method a try. This is 20 yards. What steps would you take at this point??


TWEAK your control cable,
and see what happens...


----------



## 8up

Ok. I will try it right after work this evening and let you know how it goes.


----------



## wilienayler

Thanks Alan for the info.


----------



## Deepwoods05

I did a walk back tune from 17 to 45 yards and it was almost perfect. As soon as I tried to bare shaft tune the arrow it was canted off pretty bad. Any ideas why? Which is more effective?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Deepwoods05 said:


> I did a walk back tune from 17 to 45 yards and it was almost perfect. As soon as I tried to bare shaft tune the arrow it was canted off pretty bad. Any ideas why? Which is more effective?


gotta a pic of the bareshaft in the target?


----------



## GrisMunkyNinja

Bareshafting has been driving nuts lately. Gonna read this and give it a try one day. At 20 yards I can smash a field point, bareshaft, and a broadhead all shafts touching. For some reason when I get out in the field longer shots like 50 @ 60 yards seem to drift to the right. It looks like the broadhead is steering the front to the left and the nock end is following. Also when I try bareshafting at these distances it seems to do the same. I'm gonna try this once I get access to a press. I'm thinking right now my cams have some lean in them.


----------



## nuts&bolts

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Bareshafting has been driving nuts lately. Gonna read this and give it a try one day. At 20 yards I can smash a field point, bareshaft, and a broadhead all shafts touching. For some reason when I get out in the field longer shots like 50 @ 60 yards seem to drift to the right. It looks like the broadhead is steering the front to the left and the nock end is following. Also when I try bareshafting at these distances it seems to do the same. I'm gonna try this once I get access to a press. I'm thinking right now my cams have some lean in them.


bareshafting at 50 yards, is highly skilled shooting.

So,
you must try my advanced GRIP training.

Need a plumb bob,
SINGLE STRAND of bowstring material, with a weight tied on the end.

2 yards.

Fire a bareshaft, level at full draw,
and try and SPLIT the bowstring material...the SINGLE strand.

THIS is not easy to do.
Goal is to split the single strand of bowstring, with a bareshaft
4 times in half an hour....at a 2 yard shooting line.





MASTER this at 2 yards.

Then,
try and MASTER shooting a bareshaft to SPLIT a single hanging strand of bowstring,
at 3 YARDS.

When you can do this 4 times inside half an hour of trying,
then....

your bow hand grip position,
your bow hand grip technique,
will take your fletched arrow accuracy to the next level,
at ALL DISTANCES.


----------



## Deepwoods05

I'll take a pic at the range later today; I've tried a fletch arrow modified French tuning and like nuts&bolts said hitting the strand is a great tool to teach grip I learned a lot while trying this method


----------



## hardy86

tagged for later reading


----------



## GrisMunkyNinja

Holy crap! I've been using paracord to do my french tuning. This seems like it will be a lot more accurate. I will have to try this. I think it will also be nicer on my block. Smashing paracord into a target block is no bueno after awhile.


----------



## mskecker

Marked


----------



## nuts&bolts

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Holy crap! I've been using paracord to do my french tuning. This seems like it will be a lot more accurate. I will have to try this. I think it will also be nicer on my block. Smashing paracord into a target block is no bueno after awhile.


Be patient. Training with a bareshaft and a single strand of bowstring material is VERY difficult.

If you spend 30 minutes, to do it once, at 2 yards,
then, you are doing just fine.

When you master this training at 2 yards, then, try 3 yards.
If you can nail, split the single strand of bowstring material, say twice or three times in 30 minutes,
go and try at 3 yards.

ROLL
PITCH 
YAW

Roll angle for a jet plane, is when you dip the wingtips, say dip the left wing tip down or up.

So, for a shooter, I am talking working the angle of the knuckles, on the back of the bow hand.
Try 45 degrees for knuckles angle.
Try 40 degrees below horizontal for knuckles angle.
Try 50 degrees below horizontal for knuckles angle.

PITCH angle for a plane, is flying the plane, with NOSE UP or with NOSE DOWN.

so,
PITCH angle for a shooter,
is a RELAXED bow hand wrist, so your bow hand MATCHES the angle of the grip. THIS is a good thing.
Sooo,
what happens when your bow hand wrist is NOT relaxed?

If you apply MORE pressure to the TOP of a grip, the bareshaft flies NOSE DOWN.

If you apply MORE pressure to the BOTTOM of a grip, the bareshaft flies NOSE UP.


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## nuts&bolts

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Holy crap! I've been using paracord to do my french tuning. This seems like it will be a lot more accurate. I will have to try this. I think it will also be nicer on my block. Smashing paracord into a target block is no bueno after awhile.


BIGGEST lesson to learn is YAW.

WHAT is YAW?

Say you are a F-16 fighter pilot.
You just landed on the USS Enterprise, an aircraft carrier.

So,
you now need to park your plane in the left hand parking spot,
so you make a FLAT turn, on the flight deck, into the left hand parking spot.

That's YAW.

So,
you spin your bow hand around the grip,
and your POINT the nose of your fighter jet (bow hand thumb)
to point 1/64th inch NORTH WEST,
or 1/128th inches NORTH EAST.

Yes,
SUPER DUPER tiny changes in the direction you point your bow hand thumb.

This has a HUGE effect on where the bareshaft lands,
whether your bareshaft touches the string on the left side
whether your bareshaft touches the string on the right side
whether you FINALLY SPLIT the string, with your bareshaft.


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## nuts&bolts

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Holy crap! I've been using paracord to do my french tuning. This seems like it will be a lot more accurate. I will have to try this. I think it will also be nicer on my block. Smashing paracord into a target block is no bueno after awhile.


So,
Adam929 is a hunter.

He came to me,
to see HOW far I could take him,
for consistency and accuracy.

He can not care less about spots and paper targets.

He wants to KNOW, ABSOLUTELY
that when he points as arrow at a critter,
that critter is a DEAD critter.

So,
I said FINE.

Here is your mission, if you choose to accept this.

KILL this single strand of bowstring material,
only 2 yards away.

Split the strand into a left and right side, with your field point arrow.

NO PROBLEM, he says.

5 minutes later,
he SPLITS the single strand of bowstring material.

He is grinning EAR to EAR.

I say.
THAT's some mighty fine shooting.

NOW...

DO IT AGAIN.

55 minutes later,
he has nearly pulled out every hair in his head.

He says, he NEVER REALIZED it could be THIS HARD.

With a bit of coaching,
about YAW, PITCH and ROLL...

he manages to split the single strand of bowstring, a SECOND TIME.

ONE week later,
he calls me up,
to tell me he can SPLIT that darn single strand of string 4 TIMES,
inside of half an hour.

I say EXCELLENT.

GREAT WORK.

now,
try
3 yards.

hehehehehehehehehe.


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## kendall04

Follow


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## Finq

I'm debating whether to put the standard 16gr HIT inserts in my FMJ's or the brass HIT's, either in 50 or 75 grain.
Arrow is a .340 FMJ cut to 27" length. I will be shooting 100gr field tips. 

Will the arrow be weak with 175gr up front? 

Bow is a Hoyt Vector Turbo, 27.5" DL and 67# draw weight.

Obviously trying it out is the best way of finding out, but then I'd have at least one arrow with the wrong insert glued in.


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## limpwrist

Finq said:


> I'm debating whether to put the standard 16gr HIT inserts in my FMJ's or the brass HIT's, either in 50 or 75 grain.
> Arrow is a .340 FMJ cut to 27" length. I will be shooting 100gr field tips.
> 
> Will the arrow be weak with 175gr up front?
> 
> Bow is a Hoyt Vector Turbo, 27.5" DL and 67# draw weight.
> 
> Obviously trying it out is the best way of finding out, but then I'd have at least one arrow with the wrong insert glued in.


I shoot a nearly identical setup, I've found that 75 made the arrow a tad weak. 150 grains up front and bare shaft tuned perfectly


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## NoDeerInIowa

Finq said:


> I'm debating whether to put the standard 16gr HIT inserts in my FMJ's or the brass HIT's, either in 50 or 75 grain.
> Arrow is a .340 FMJ cut to 27" length. I will be shooting 100gr field tips.
> 
> Will the arrow be weak with 175gr up front?
> 
> Bow is a Hoyt Vector Turbo, 27.5" DL and 67# draw weight.
> 
> Obviously trying it out is the best way of finding out, but then I'd have at least one arrow with the wrong insert glued in.


I love the brass with mine. Almost identical setup. Try the coolflex adhesive for your test arrow, that way, if you don't like it, you can remove the insert without damaging the arrow.


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## jamoose16

tagged


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## Packer58

marked for later.


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## Ruttin BUX

Tagged


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## Jay38

Thank you!. I just put new strings on my Experience. Did the kitchen sink tune & creep tune. Ended up droppin a half inch of DL. Love it. Put 125 gr fixed blade bh on and groups were great. My BH hitting w/ FP from the start. Here is a pic of 60yds. The arrow on right is a BH.







....And yes my deer has seen better days. It dont even have a head...


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## bcowette

Tagged


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## Larkinhjr

Jay38 said:


> Thank you!. I just put new strings on my Experience. Did the kitchen sink tune & creep tune. Ended up droppin a half inch of DL. Love it. Put 125 gr fixed blade bh on and groups were great. My BH hitting w/ FP from the start. Here is a pic of 60yds. The arrow on right is a BH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....And yes my deer has seen better days. It dont even have a head...


What kind of deer target I have same one. I am looking for a replacment vital insert?


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## cooperjd

Good googally moogally this is a big thread. Thanks so much for all the info. I was pulling my hair out trying to fix my bare shaft impacting 6" low. Finally ran across some info to loosen my top limb bolt about 1/2 turn, and I was projecting my wrist too far forward and not relaxing my hand enough. 
This is 20 yards 









And this is walk back tuning with fixed blade broadheads at 20, 30, 40 yards.









My broadheads were impacting a bit left of fps, but I had to tweak my cam synch slightly and add one more half twist in my left yokes. Didn't get to re shoot broadheads tonight. I'll try some more tomorrow. 

Bowtech destroyer 340 is the bow


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## htrain57

Tag


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## woodie

marked


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## ermont

Tagged


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## cloquet

ttt


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## Jay38

Larkin....I don't remember what target it is. My dad stopped shooting his bow & he gave it to me. Sorry, I couldn't help


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## BTShooter

Tagged.


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## HOYT3065

marked


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## primal-bow

april 2012 - sept of 2014 this is an old but great posting


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## reezen11

Back up for some tuning info


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## multi-target

Marked


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## Hammer20

ttt


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## bowtechky

wolbear said:


> Well, even though I have been an archery tech in two different shops over the last 13 years, and know my way around archery equipment pretty well, there is ALWAYS something to learn. As a quick history on me started with traditional equipment (still shoot a longbow from time to time) and transitioned into compounds. When I shot traditional bows, there was a bareshaft technique used to determine the correct spine arrow to use for optimal flight. As time passed, and arrows, broadheads etc... became more advanced, this technique lost momentum and many just didn't pay attention.
> 
> Let's fast forward to last season, I was shooting the Mathews Z7 and a Elite GT500, both bows very accurate, very nice rigs. Having left the archery tech profession to follow my 911 dispatcher career, I decided since I wasn't working on everyone else's equipment that I wanted to "perfect" mine. I got some info from multiple sources on tuning methods and accuracy tips. I ventured into the relm of bareshaft tuning with a compound. Now, I will say that last season I darn near pulled my hair out trying to get the bareshaft arrows to hit with the fletched arrows. I was adjusting the rest every other shot it seemed. Finally, setting the rest to get a bullet hole thru paper and forgetting about the bareshaft tuning.
> 
> Fast forward again to the present. I started to see the familiar threads popping up about the bare shaft tuning processes and how some were proclaiming great success and outstanding shooting after having done this tuning method. Against my better judgement, I decided it was time to try it again. This time however, I reached out to friends and techs that I felt were trust worthy and knowledgable in the matter. After preparing myself for the hair pulling (had the wifey give me a buzz cut as to not be able to grab the hair strands) I attempted to tune yesterday. I wanted to start close and did 5 yrds then 10 yrds, then finally 20 yrds. After much thought and deliberation, I decided to follow the instructions given by Alan (nuts and bolts). My first few shots showed a bareshaft hitting to the left of fletched arrows, a quick adjustment to the yokes and back out to the target. The left and right was corrected, but the bareshaft was slightly higher than the fletched arrows. Well, referred to the printed out instructions from Alan and adjusted the bus cable accordingly. Back to the target and this time, fletched arrows were touching bareshafts at 5 and 10 yards and within a inch at 20 yards. Now, I had tuned both bows (Reezen 7.0 and Z7) to a bullethole prior and was concerned the changes I made to both thru this process would change that. I found that both bows are shooting a perfect bullet hole @ 6' 12' & 20'.
> 
> Here's where it gets very interesting! Now let me state that I am by no means a super archer or championship accuracy material. I'm just an average guy that gets very anal about accuracy and equipment. So, having both bows tuned using bareshaft tuning (as instructed by nuts and bolts) I shot from 20,30,40, and finally 50 yrds. 20, 30 and 40 showed arrows very,very tightly grouped with 20 yrds touching,30 within 1/2 inch, 40 within an inch. Now, that is a great improvement already, but here's where the difference became truly apparent, my 50 yrds. groups, which normally was about the size of a honeydo mellon, (avaerage) dropped to the size of a baseball. I initially thought, geez, something must be wrong, must have just gotten lucky shooting that group, you know, sometimes everything just falls together and you shoot like a superstar! So, I decided to walk away for half an hour and get some other little things done and then return to try again. Well, upon my return and shooting my arrows were yet again settled into the bullseye (I use the inside circle of a masking tape roll to paint the bullseye circles). Now, for me at least, this was proof positive that when you listen to the right people and take your time and get a little anal about tuning, you can greatly improve you accuracy.
> 
> I just want to officially say, "Thank You" to Alan. It was his patience in answering my 20 million questions about this process that made it possible, and truly not that hard to do.
> 
> The following is the PM's I received from Alan and the procedures to achieve this:
> 
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> I also have a Mathews,
> an Apex 7.
> 
> The riser will TWIST some, at full draw,
> depending on your draw length
> and your draw weight.
> 
> So,
> we are correcting for the amount of riser twist (lateral nock travel),
> with bareshaft testing.
> 
> Fire a bareshaft at 20 yards,
> and
> fire fletched shafts at 20 yards.
> 
> Tweak your arrow rest so the fletched arrows are grouping at 20 yards.
> 
> IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
> off to the right....
> 
> TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
> and
> UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...
> 
> REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
> 
> 
> IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> 
> then,
> add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable
> to adjust the cam position at full draw.
> 
> 
> When you have the left-right error fixed on the bareshaft
> and
> when you have the up-down error fixed on the bareshaft...
> 
> bareshaft AND fletched all in the 20 yard bullseye...
> 
> your groups will be noticeably TIGHTER.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by wolbear
> Alan, thanks for the info. I was always told to move the rest to get the fletched arrows and bareshafts to hit together. That's probably why it ticked me off so much and had me pulling my hair out.
> 
> Move the arrow rest to find centershot
> for FLETCHED arrows.
> 
> Tweak the yoke cable leg lengths,
> to fix lateral nock travel (basically the limb tips are untwisting, after you release the arrow).
> 
> I have completed hundreds of hours of testing
> compound bows and releases.
> 
> When you fix the compound bow lateral nock travel,
> you can shoot "properly spined", and a skosh weak and SUPER CRAZY stiff arrows
> out of the same bow,
> with fletched and with bareshaft arrows.
> 
> 
> 
> ONLY when you shoot a compound bow with FINGERS,
> will you get a WEAK arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched arrows
> and
> will you get a STIFF arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting left of the fletched arrows.
> 
> 
> Ever see a FINGERS shooter with a compound bow
> try the GoldTip Triple X arrows, with 100 grain points
> or
> Easton Full Bore arrows with 100 grain points
> 
> It will never happen, cuz it won't work.
> 
> With a release,
> you can tune a compound bow to shoot
> GoldTip 22 series, X-Cutters, 30X, or the Triple X arrows, no problem.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> Always nice to learn something new.
> 
> 
> You have EXCELLENT scientific method,
> cuz,
> if you can repeat a new finding TWICE,
> then,
> you have solid results.
> 
> I am in the medical device field,
> and am working on an experimental replacement disc for the neck.
> So, we do testing of new designs...endless testing.
> 
> 
> So,
> now that we have the fletched arrow groups SMALLER
> (that's the whole point of tuning with bareshafts)...
> 
> now,
> gotta go the next step and check broadhead flight.
> 
> Make tiny adjustments to the arrow rest...
> skosh left...
> skosh right....
> 
> loosen the horizontal lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th left or 1/64th right
> loosen the vertical lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th up or 1/64th down
> 
> to super tune broadhead point of impact.
> 
> 
> The bareshaft tune has your yoke cables adjusted just so, and it's perfect.
> The bareshaft tune has your buss cable adjusted just so, and it is also perfect.
> 
> 
> So,
> when tweaking broadhead point of impact,
> we are making tiny adjustments
> to the arrow rest elevation
> and
> to the arrow rest horizontal position....
> 
> to fine tune the broadhead arrow starting / launch position.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly low or high of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly left or right of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching in PERFECT POSITION....
> then,
> the BLADES and the VANES have ZERO steering correction to do....
> 
> 
> this is why we tune with bareshafts.
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> if you like,
> please write up your findings of your experiments in the Gen Discussion section,
> so the next guy can learn from you.
> 
> Alan
> 
> Sorry so long, but really think everyone deserves to see you can improve your bow tune and accomplish excellent groups!


Tagged


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## fishfarmer

tagged


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## msteff

Tagged also


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## AKFF

WOW! A lot of good info here! Thanks!


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## GrisMunkyNinja

tagged (bs/bh tuning)


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## Tim Snyder

looking for good info on bare shaft tuning? Look no further.


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## camo711

Tagged - Great Thread


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## Swede

Hey guys, great thread

I´m having a problem I just can´t seem to get my head around.

These two groups were shot with the same setup a PCEXL w 29,5" spirals @ 58 lbs

Yellow fletched are Gold tip ultra light 400s 28,5" w 110 grn points, Black fletched group are Easton X23s 2315s 30" w 200 grn points 

Can somebody tell me why they react like this. 

With my previous bow a VE+ 29,5" w GTX cams @ 58 lbs I would shoot bareshaft groups out to 55 yards with the same arrows. Now I can´t get them closer then this. 
I have done the steps in the yoke tuning and bareshaft tuning and can´t get them closer then this.
















/Magnus


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## Travis Shaw

I shot my bare shaft with my fletched today and had the exact same position with my bare shaft. If you can shoot groups like that what more do you really want


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## rmt1993

Great info


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## SpeedStar

Great thread, tag.


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## Barktan

Can someone suggest an order in which to apply all methods outlined in this great thread? It's so much I don't know where to start.


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## dk-1

tag for later reference


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## Bowpro-295

Tagged


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## Mainefella

Tagged


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## juststartin08

Tagged


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## k&j8

tagged


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## Probe 97

Marked...


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## Smokeymtnbow

Barktan said:


> Can someone suggest an order in which to apply all methods outlined in this great thread? It's so much I don't know where to start.


Look up padgettarchery blog on the web. He outlines his tuning set up from start to finish. I think rcr has one on his blog too. Both are great assets.


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## watasha

good info here


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## steve101610

Tagged


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## Tallybowman

tagged


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## 02transam

Bump for an excellent tuning thread.

Bare shaft tuning is fun. Once you bs tune and you notice your groups shrink you'll be fletched. lol


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## Ray Czajka

ttt


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## Kudu77

Marked


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## shootahoyt77

Marked for later


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## itsashooter

Lots of good information, subscribed for later.


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## Yamahog12

camo711 said:


> Tagged - Great Thread


How do you mark a thread so you can refer back later? Is that the same as subscribing to it?


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## Yamahog12

How do you mark a thread so you can refer back later? Is that the same as subscribing to it?


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## Yamahog12

How do you mark a thread so you can refer back later? Is that the same as subscribing to it?


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## Yamahog12

How do you mark a thread so you can refer back later? Is that the same as subscribing to it?


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## bowhuntermitch

Yamahog12 said:


> How do you mark a thread so you can refer back later? Is that the same as subscribing to it?


You just did. Go into your profile (your username) and click "find latest posts". Click on that and you'll see all the posts you've commented on.


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## Yamahog12

bowhuntermitch said:


> You just did. Go into your profile (your username) and click "find latest posts". Click on that and you'll see all the posts you've commented on.


Ok. Thanks for the reply.


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## DonsHarley

Yamahog12 said:


> Ok. Thanks for the reply.


You can also go to the top of the post and click on thread tools and subscribe without posting.


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## Fury90flier

Yamahog12 said:


> Ok. Thanks for the reply.


you've been here since for 8 years and this is just now being questioned?

There is a place called "Thread Tools" in the upper right of the first post of each page....click...then select "subscribe"


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## quizzinator

marked


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## THwAckZ7

Ffr


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## TomBee

tag for excellent info


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## sigfla

tagged


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## THwAckZ7

saved


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## NoviceAddicted

Hello everyone. It's kind of late here and maybe I missed it while scrolling through the great information as always here. My question is as a left handed archer, compound bow, do I reverse all the information given here I.E. for a right handed shooter bare shafts going to right of target and fletched arrows that are hitting on target indicates a weak arrow or other adjustment to rest etc, and for a lefty bare shafts going to the right of target center indicates too stiff an arrow? If this is true I am thinking I would also have to reverse all the directions for twisting or untwisting bus cable, split cable etc? I just did my first experiment indoors at 20 yards shooting 4 bare shafts followed by 4 fletched arrows and repeated numerous times. Remembering I'm a lefty, the bare shafts were right of target center and back part of arrow towards nock point were leaning to the left. As it stands now my next experiment may be in running a higher point weight from 145 grams to 200 grams (strictly for indoors 20 yards until 3D starts again) setting bow to higher poundage or both. I really have to see what happens if I paper tune too, haven't done yet. I'm not sure if any rest adjustments are in order. I am going to try and digest everything nuts&bolts is saying and once again do I reverse everything as a lefty compound shooter? Thanks for any help you can give me. Novice Addicted.


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## GuntherChaconne

Alan is the best. His dvd set was money well spent. 

He's also very patient with private messaging. I've learned allot from that guy.


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## NoviceAddicted

Thanks for the heads up Donnie. I am thinking at this point that bare shaft tuning eliminates, or is a better method of tuning than paper tuning. I have scrolled through an easton chart on bow tuning and they state that everything is opposite for a left handed shooter, I.E. if a lefty shoots bare shafts right of target the arrow is acting too strong versus too weak for a righty. They don't go into twisting split or any cables in easton site. I am going to assume for now that I would do the opposite in twisting or untwisting yolk, or split cables than is advised for a right handed shooter I.E. so if the advise is to twist one cable tighter for the bare shafts hitting on one side of the target for a righty, I would untwist the opposite, or same side split cable being a lefty? I know this all sounds confusing but imagine being a lefty and having to reverse directions an most things technical being written for rightys .Thanks in advance for any confirmation on this.


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## 308ruger

Tagged


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## BrianStevenson

interesting. good post


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## iswandy

Now, after reading this tread carefully and trying to understand as best as I could, I will try this on my bow, and will start from zero again. in fact, a already prepare with step by step detail to guide me during all tuning process later on. To any expert in here, please comment if I miss anything in my step below, so someone else in here also might able to use this step-by-step as a reference form. each box after numbering to be thick after performed each step, and ignore either one of RESULT/RESPOND thick box. box with inch/meter/yard to be fill with number.

1.	[ ] Adjust my arrow rest level with berger hole and manufacturer center shot marking (on sight window) both vertical and horizontal.
2.	[ ] Adjust D-loop to ensure arrow nock level is 90 deg off string.
3.	[ ] Now it’s time to do Modified French Tuning by stick some masking tape vertically on my target butt
4.	[ ] Shoot a field point arrow at the line (to split the line with the arrow hole) at 1 meter/yard distance.
5.	[ ] Result: arrow hit [ ] inch to the [Right/left]
6.	[ ] Respond: Tweak the sight windage to the [Right/Left]
7.	[ ] Repeat #6 until I get satisfying result and take picture (picture 7 attached below)
8.	[ ] Move to farther distance [ ] meter/yard, aim and shoot arrows at bulleye.
9.	[ ] Result: arrow group to the [Right/Left] of bulleye.
10.	[ ] Respond: Tweak the arrow rest windage so the arrows are centered around the bulleye.
11.	[ ] Repeat #10 until I get satisfying result and take picture (picture 11 attached below)
12.	[ ] Go back to shooting at 1 meter/yard distance and shoot a field point arrow at the line (to split the line with the arrow hole)
13.	[ ] Result: arrow hit [ ] inch to the [Right/left]
14.	[ ] Respond: Tweak the sight windage to the [Right/Left]
15.	[ ] Repeat #14 until I get satisfying result and take picture (picture 15 attached below)
16.	[ ] Move back to farther distance [ ] meter/yard, aim and shoot arrows at bulleye.
17.	[ ] Result: arrow group to the [Right/Left] of bulleye.
18.	[ ]Respond: Tweak the arrow rest windage so the arrows are centered around the bulleye.
19.	[ ] Repeat #18 until I get satisfying result and take picture (picture 19 link attached below)
20.	[ ] Now I have done with Modified French Tuning and move to the next tuning which is bareshaft tuning.
21.	[ ] Fire 2 fletched arrows and 2 bareshaft arrows at 5 meter/yard, keep shooting unti. Bareshaft is slapping each other at this distance. Body position, draw length, grip, forearm direction play very important role to get perfect shot each time.
22.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts are hitting [ ] inch to the RIGHT (picture 22 attached below)
23.	[ ] Respond: [ ] twist for the LEFT side yoke (shorter) & [ ] untwist for the RIGHT side yoke (longer), 1 full twist/untwist at a time.
24.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts are hitting [ ] inch to the LEFT (picture 24 attached below)
25.	[ ] Respond: [ ] twist for the RIGHT side yoke (shorter) & [ ] untwist for the LEFT side yoke (longer), 1 full twist/untwist at a time.
26.	[ ] Now that I have bareshafts hitting with the fletched arrows at 5 yard/meter fixed. Next is to fix bareshaft hit HIGH/LOW (vertical nock travel).
27.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts grouping [ ] inch ABOVE fletched arrows (picture 27 attached below)
28.	[ ] Respond: [ ] UNTWIST (lengthen) the bust cable for single cam, 1 twist at a time (hybrid cam need to shorten control cable by ½ twist at a time).
29.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts grouping [ ] inch BELOW fletched arrows (picture 29 attached below)
30.	[ ] Respond: [ ] TWIST (shorten) the bust cable for single cam, 1 twist at a time (hybrid cam need to lengthen control cable by ½ twist at a time)
31.	[ ] Now that I have bareshaft & fletch arrows grouping & slapping each other at 5 meter/yard (picture 31 attached below), it’s time to move to longer distance, [ ] meters/yards.
32.	[ ] Fire 2 fletched arrows and 2 bareshaft arrows at [ ] meter/yard
33.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts are hitting [ ] inch to the RIGHT (picture 33 attached below)
34.	[ ] Respond: [ ] twist for the LEFT side yoke (shorter) & [ ] untwist for the RIGHT side yoke (longer), 1/2 turn at a time.
35.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts are hitting [ ] inch to the LEFT (picture 35 attached below)
36.	[ ] Respond: [ ] twist for the RIGHT side yoke (shorter) & [ ] untwist for the LEFT side yoke (longer), 1/2 turn at a time.
37.	[ ] Now that I have bareshafts hitting with the fletched arrows at [ ] yard/meter fixed. Next is to fix bareshaft hit HIGH/LOW (vertical nock travel).
38.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts grouping [ ] inch ABOVE fletched arrows (picture 38 attached below)
39.	[ ] Respond: [ ] UNTWIST (lengthen) the bust cable for single cam, 1/2 twist at a time (hybrid cam need to shorten control cable by ½ twist at a time).
40.	[ ] Result: Bareshafts grouping [ ] inch BELOW fletched arrows (picture 40 attached below)
41.	[ ] Respond: [ ] TWIST (shorten) the bust cable for single cam, ½ twist at a time (hybrid cam need to lengthen control cable by ½ twist at a time).
42.	[ ] Now that I have bareshaft & fletch arrows grouping & slapping each other at 5 meter/yard (picture 42 attached below), it’s time to do broadhead tuning. 
43.	[ ] As for broadhead tuning, I will using DOC method, which is adjusting arrow rest (1/8 -1/32 at a time) toward field point P.O.I, which some say; broadhead chasing field point P.O.I Since I’ve already familiar and adapted with this method for many years now, I won’t go for step by step detail of this method. Here is field point & broadhead grouping at [ ] meters/yards (picture 43 attached below)
44.	[ ] If that doesn’t quite work, I’m going to back out my limb bolts one turn at a time to match bow poundage with my arrow spine. Here is field point & broad head grouping at [ ] meters/yards (picture 44 attached below)

Note: My bow is RH single cam PSE Brute X with 70# limb, with limb bolts tightened all the way down and paired with Limb Driver Pro-V arrow rest. My arrows is Easton Powerflight 400 with 26.5” shaft length, 100gr point and 3inch Easton Diamond Vanes (x3). Draw length is set to 27inch (Module G, Stop G) to fit my draw length and my release is Carter Just Cuz. As for the bow spec, I keep maintain from time to time to make sure my Brute X ATA is 31in, Brace height is 7 1/4in, and cam position marked 1I2I are inline with bush cable, just line PSE spec recommendation. 

*Do let me know if I need to back down few turn of my limb bolts based on my arrow spec, as I don't have any software to refer, just arrow spine chart at Easton & Hunters friend site.*


----------



## jdsayre

Lots of good material here to read. Got a target bow to tune soon.


----------



## Mauritian

*Do let me know if I need to back down few turn of my limb bolts based on my arrow spec, as I don't have any software to refer, just arrow spine chart at Easton & Hunters friend site.*[/QUOTE]

OT2 had a free trial version I think.


----------



## iswandy

Evening project




























Will continue again tomorrow


----------



## iswandy

Bareshaft & field point grouping 20yards 










Broadhead & field point grouping, no further tuning require at 20 yards (slick trick 100gr)










Pink dot sticker is 1 inch diameter

:thumbs_up8


----------



## iswandy

And this is my BH/FP grouping just few days ago, before yoke/bareshaft tuning, also at 20 yards distance


----------



## Kevbo

Well done


----------



## iswandy

my arrows grouping suck I know, but now I'm very happy to see my fixed broadhead do not miss left or right anymore after reading and practice all Alan tuning trick

1st end of 4 field point vs 1 broadhead









2nd end of 4 field point vs 1 broadhead


----------



## iswandy

and all that is at 66yards / 60meters distance


----------



## Hunt 2 Eat

This is a great thread. I'm new to all of this, but equally "particular" as the OP. I saw something mentioned about Alan having a DVD set. Anyone have a link for those of us too lazy to go thru the search function? 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


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## Buckdundee

Tag

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## knapper2

April bump.


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## ACC Elkhunter

Tagged great post.


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## redwings423

Tag


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## ycastane

Hunt 2 Eat said:


> This is a great thread. I'm new to all of this, but equally "particular" as the OP. I saw something mentioned about Alan having a DVD set. Anyone have a link for those of us too lazy to go thru the search function?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


Go to his site and the link is there. http://nutsandboltsarchery.com


----------



## psevermont

Awesome reading material. I am going to try this myself. I would say you are not to far from that super archer now. Thanks for the onfo.


----------



## bsharkey

Ttt


----------



## nubbb

Ttt


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## lungpuncher1

tag


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## BoHunter0210

*My tuning results so far*

I'm pretty close. Shot a few nocks off and one flier at 17 yards.


----------



## francis

Good info


----------



## talonone

thanks for the info


----------



## hammerdownbrown

wolbear said:


> Well, even though I have been an archery tech in two different shops over the last 13 years, and know my way around archery equipment pretty well, there is ALWAYS something to learn. As a quick history on me started with traditional equipment (still shoot a longbow from time to time) and transitioned into compounds. When I shot traditional bows, there was a bareshaft technique used to determine the correct spine arrow to use for optimal flight. As time passed, and arrows, broadheads etc... became more advanced, this technique lost momentum and many just didn't pay attention.
> 
> Let's fast forward to last season, I was shooting the Mathews Z7 and a Elite GT500, both bows very accurate, very nice rigs. Having left the archery tech profession to follow my 911 dispatcher career, I decided since I wasn't working on everyone else's equipment that I wanted to "perfect" mine. I got some info from multiple sources on tuning methods and accuracy tips. I ventured into the relm of bareshaft tuning with a compound. Now, I will say that last season I darn near pulled my hair out trying to get the bareshaft arrows to hit with the fletched arrows. I was adjusting the rest every other shot it seemed. Finally, setting the rest to get a bullet hole thru paper and forgetting about the bareshaft tuning.
> 
> Fast forward again to the present. I started to see the familiar threads popping up about the bare shaft tuning processes and how some were proclaiming great success and outstanding shooting after having done this tuning method. Against my better judgement, I decided it was time to try it again. This time however, I reached out to friends and techs that I felt were trust worthy and knowledgable in the matter. After preparing myself for the hair pulling (had the wifey give me a buzz cut as to not be able to grab the hair strands) I attempted to tune yesterday. I wanted to start close and did 5 yrds then 10 yrds, then finally 20 yrds. After much thought and deliberation, I decided to follow the instructions given by Alan (nuts and bolts). My first few shots showed a bareshaft hitting to the left of fletched arrows, a quick adjustment to the yokes and back out to the target. The left and right was corrected, but the bareshaft was slightly higher than the fletched arrows. Well, referred to the printed out instructions from Alan and adjusted the bus cable accordingly. Back to the target and this time, fletched arrows were touching bareshafts at 5 and 10 yards and within a inch at 20 yards. Now, I had tuned both bows (Reezen 7.0 and Z7) to a bullethole prior and was concerned the changes I made to both thru this process would change that. I found that both bows are shooting a perfect bullet hole @ 6' 12' & 20'.
> 
> Here's where it gets very interesting! Now let me state that I am by no means a super archer or championship accuracy material. I'm just an average guy that gets very anal about accuracy and equipment. So, having both bows tuned using bareshaft tuning (as instructed by nuts and bolts) I shot from 20,30,40, and finally 50 yrds. 20, 30 and 40 showed arrows very,very tightly grouped with 20 yrds touching,30 within 1/2 inch, 40 within an inch. Now, that is a great improvement already, but here's where the difference became truly apparent, my 50 yrds. groups, which normally was about the size of a honeydo mellon, (avaerage) dropped to the size of a baseball. I initially thought, geez, something must be wrong, must have just gotten lucky shooting that group, you know, sometimes everything just falls together and you shoot like a superstar! So, I decided to walk away for half an hour and get some other little things done and then return to try again. Well, upon my return and shooting my arrows were yet again settled into the bullseye (I use the inside circle of a masking tape roll to paint the bullseye circles). Now, for me at least, this was proof positive that when you listen to the right people and take your time and get a little anal about tuning, you can greatly improve you accuracy.
> 
> I just want to officially say, "Thank You" to Alan. It was his patience in answering my 20 million questions about this process that made it possible, and truly not that hard to do.
> 
> The following is the PM's I received from Alan and the procedures to achieve this:
> 
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> I also have a Mathews,
> an Apex 7.
> 
> The riser will TWIST some, at full draw,
> depending on your draw length
> and your draw weight.
> 
> So,
> we are correcting for the amount of riser twist (lateral nock travel),
> with bareshaft testing.
> 
> Fire a bareshaft at 20 yards,
> and
> fire fletched shafts at 20 yards.
> 
> Tweak your arrow rest so the fletched arrows are grouping at 20 yards.
> 
> IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
> off to the right....
> 
> TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
> and
> UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...
> 
> REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
> 
> 
> IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> 
> then,
> add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable
> to adjust the cam position at full draw.
> 
> 
> When you have the left-right error fixed on the bareshaft
> and
> when you have the up-down error fixed on the bareshaft...
> 
> bareshaft AND fletched all in the 20 yard bullseye...
> 
> your groups will be noticeably TIGHTER.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by wolbear
> Alan, thanks for the info. I was always told to move the rest to get the fletched arrows and bareshafts to hit together. That's probably why it ticked me off so much and had me pulling my hair out.
> 
> Move the arrow rest to find centershot
> for FLETCHED arrows.
> 
> Tweak the yoke cable leg lengths,
> to fix lateral nock travel (basically the limb tips are untwisting, after you release the arrow).
> 
> I have completed hundreds of hours of testing
> compound bows and releases.
> 
> When you fix the compound bow lateral nock travel,
> you can shoot "properly spined", and a skosh weak and SUPER CRAZY stiff arrows
> out of the same bow,
> with fletched and with bareshaft arrows.
> 
> 
> 
> ONLY when you shoot a compound bow with FINGERS,
> will you get a WEAK arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched arrows
> and
> will you get a STIFF arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting left of the fletched arrows.
> 
> 
> Ever see a FINGERS shooter with a compound bow
> try the GoldTip Triple X arrows, with 100 grain points
> or
> Easton Full Bore arrows with 100 grain points?
> 
> It will never happen, cuz it won't work.
> 
> With a release,
> you can tune a compound bow to shoot
> GoldTip 22 series, X-Cutters, 30X, or the Triple X arrows, no problem.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> Always nice to learn something new.
> 
> 
> You have EXCELLENT scientific method,
> cuz,
> if you can repeat a new finding TWICE,
> then,
> you have solid results.
> 
> I am in the medical device field,
> and am working on an experimental replacement disc for the neck.
> So, we do testing of new designs...endless testing.
> 
> 
> So,
> now that we have the fletched arrow groups SMALLER
> (that's the whole point of tuning with bareshafts)...
> 
> now,
> gotta go the next step and check broadhead flight.
> 
> Make tiny adjustments to the arrow rest...
> skosh left...
> skosh right....
> 
> loosen the horizontal lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th left or 1/64th right
> loosen the vertical lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th up or 1/64th down
> 
> to super tune broadhead point of impact.
> 
> 
> The bareshaft tune has your yoke cables adjusted just so, and it's perfect.
> The bareshaft tune has your buss cable adjusted just so, and it is also perfect.
> 
> 
> So,
> when tweaking broadhead point of impact,
> we are making tiny adjustments
> to the arrow rest elevation
> and
> to the arrow rest horizontal position....
> 
> to fine tune the broadhead arrow starting / launch position.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly low or high of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly left or right of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching in PERFECT POSITION....
> then,
> the BLADES and the VANES have ZERO steering correction to do....
> 
> 
> this is why we tune with bareshafts.
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> if you like,
> please write up your findings of your experiments in the Gen Discussion section,
> so the next guy can learn from you.
> 
> Alan
> 
> Sorry so long, but really think everyone deserves to see you can improve your bow tune and accomplish excellent groups!


Is this the same for lefthand shooters


----------



## nuts&bolts

hammerdownbrown said:


> Is this the same for lefthand shooters


LEft handed shooters, right handed shooters...just go shoot. If your form is out of alignment, then strap a flashlight/laser pointer to your release forearm, and the laser pointer will show you what direction your bareshaft is going to fly.



Stick figure for a LEFT handed shooter. Your RELEASE forearm is a rudder, is a weather vane, is a COMPASS needle. If your RELEASE forearm (elbow to wrist) is pointing to the RIGHT of the target...your bareshaft is going to miss RIGHT of the bullseye. If your RELEASE forearm (elbow to wrist) is pointing to the LEFT of the target...your bareshaft is going to miss LEFT of the bullseye.


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## 3Dblackncamo

Very interesting 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HawkeyeBruiser

I'm in.


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## BowTechBuck

Results based tuning 

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk


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## Lcp3557

tag


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## TAIL~~CHASER

nuts&bolts said:


> LEft handed shooters, right handed shooters...just go shoot. If your form is out of alignment, then strap a flashlight/laser pointer to your release forearm, and the laser pointer will show you what direction your bareshaft is going to fly.
> 
> 
> 
> Stick figure for a LEFT handed shooter. Your RELEASE forearm is a rudder, is a weather vane, is a COMPASS needle. If your RELEASE forearm (elbow to wrist) is pointing to the RIGHT of the target...your bareshaft is going to miss RIGHT of the bullseye. If your RELEASE forearm (elbow to wrist) is pointing to the LEFT of the target...your bareshaft is going to miss LEFT of the bullseye.


This is draw length related as well.


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## TAIL~~CHASER

Left to right on these pics. To long... Proper draw length... To short draw length.


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## RickMcMaken

I realize this is an old thread, but this is some good info here. Thanks for taking the time to post this.


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## hitnmiss

tagged


----------



## CJT1487

wolbear said:


> IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> 
> then,
> add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable
> to adjust the cam position at full draw.


So if the bare shaft hits low do you remove a twist from the buss cable, move the nock point, or just let it be?


----------



## Nevanevan

Got to shooting a bareshaft at 50 today. Was entering parallel both vertically and horizontally, so I don't think I need to adjust the cables at all. But it is hitting high. Do you think this is due to reduced weight on the nock or a rest issue. I played a bit with moving rest right and left to get the bareshaft in the middle, does this mean I have to raise my rest?









Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk


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## dnv23

Lower your rest.


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## hunter11

Tagged


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## Ruttin BUX

Tagged


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## bartman9

My bareshafts were hitting about 8 inches left of fletched at 20 yards. I put a full twist in the right yoke and removed a twist in the left yoke. They are closer now, but the left yoke is fully untwisted. How can I make further adjustments?


----------



## nuts&bolts

bartman9 said:


> My bareshafts were hitting about 8 inches left of fletched at 20 yards. I put a full twist in the right yoke and removed a twist in the left yoke. They are closer now, but the left yoke is fully untwisted. How can I make further adjustments?


Keep adding twists to the right yoke leg. Move arrow rest 1/64th inch to the LEFT. Double the length of your d-loop to anchor farther back on your face, and PULL elbow (release elbow) MORE behind your head, when at full draw. Shorten all cables 1 twist, to decrease ATA, which increases brace height, which increases draw length. I did ZERO yoke tuning, and ZERO moving arrow rest and ZERO shimming my cams. DL module is 29-inch DL and bow was tuned to be in SPEC. HERE is the fletched and bareshaft result. Yup, bareshaft missed 8-inches LEFT of x-ring. Just like you.










Bareshaft impact, when aiming at the x-ring, 20- yards away.










Right handed shooter. So, let's mess with the cables, by shortening the cables, to CHANGE ATA out of spec, to GROW brace height, which means the draw length also grows. Let's try 1/16th inch MORE brace, which means 1/16th inch MORE draw length.










Did it twice with a bareshaft, at 1/16th inch OUT OF SPEC, brace and draw length (longer direction). Let's repeat the test at a total of 1/8th inch OUT OF SPEC on purpose, LONGER Brace and LONGER DL.










Do ya see a pattern developing here? Let's try 1/4-inch OUT of spec, Brace and OUT of spec, draw length (longer direction).










Now look at that. Bareshaft WAS hitting 8-inches left of the x-ring. 1/4-inch change in the BRACE and draw length (LONGER direction), puts the bareshaft in the 10-ring. So, what about the folks who NEVER EVER shoot a bareshaft? Well, let's see what happens with a group of FLETCHED, with the bow OUT OF SPEC, 1/4-inch LONGER on Brace and 1/4-inch LONGER on draw length.










TIGHTER fletched group, with the bow 1/4-inch LONGER on brace and 1/4-inch LONGER on draw length. BUT BUT BUT, it's missing HIGH and RIGHT. you DO know that sight windage and sight elevation have ZERO effect on GROUP size, right? SO, fix sight windage and fix sight elevation. 1/4-inch MORE draw length, means MORE arrow speed, and therefore you hit HIGHER. LONGER draw length, means you anchor farther back on your face, so this explains the RIGHT miss. REmember, sight windage and sight elevation has ZERO effect on group size.










No messing with yoke legs. NO yoke tuning. Zero cam lean at full draw, as always. No shimming the cams. JUST messing with ATA and Brace and DL.


----------



## bartman9

Okay, that is helpful! But let me make sure I understand. Put twists in both yokes and bus cable to shorter ATA and increase draw length... right?


----------



## soutthpaw

nuts&bolts said:


> Keep adding twists to the right yoke leg. Move arrow rest 1/64th inch to the LEFT. Double the length of your d-loop to anchor farther back on your face, and PULL elbow (release elbow) MORE behind your head, when at full draw. Shorten all cables 1 twist, to decrease ATA, which increases brace height, which increases draw length. I did ZERO yoke tuning, and ZERO moving arrow rest and ZERO shimming my cams. DL module is 29-inch DL and bow was tuned to be in SPEC. HERE is the fletched and bareshaft result. Yup, bareshaft missed 8-inches LEFT of x-ring. Just like you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bareshaft impact, when aiming at the x-ring, 20- yards away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right handed shooter. So, let's mess with the cables, by shortening the cables, to CHANGE ATA out of spec, to GROW brace height, which means the draw length also grows. Let's try 1/16th inch MORE brace, which means 1/16th inch MORE draw length.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did it twice with a bareshaft, at 1/16th inch OUT OF SPEC, brace and draw length (longer direction). Let's repeat the test at a total of 1/8th inch OUT OF SPEC on purpose, LONGER Brace and LONGER DL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do ya see a pattern developing here? Let's try 1/4-inch OUT of spec, Brace and OUT of spec, draw length (longer direction).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at that. Bareshaft WAS hitting 8-inches left of the x-ring. 1/4-inch change in the BRACE and draw length (LONGER direction), puts the bareshaft in the 10-ring. So, what about the folks who NEVER EVER shoot a bareshaft? Well, let's see what happens with a group of FLETCHED, with the bow OUT OF SPEC, 1/4-inch LONGER on Brace and 1/4-inch LONGER on draw length.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TIGHTER fletched group, with the bow 1/4-inch LONGER on brace and 1/4-inch LONGER on draw length. BUT BUT BUT, it's missing HIGH and RIGHT. you DO know that sight windage and sight elevation have ZERO effect on GROUP size, right? SO, fix sight windage and fix sight elevation. 1/4-inch MORE draw length, means MORE arrow speed, and therefore you hit HIGHER. LONGER draw length, means you anchor farther back on your face, so this explains the RIGHT miss. REmember, sight windage and sight elevation has ZERO effect on group size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No messing with yoke legs. NO yoke tuning. Zero cam lean at full draw, as always. No shimming the cams. JUST messing with ATA and Brace and DL.


Would this be reversed for a left hand shooter. My bear shafts are 9 inches right of fletched arrows at 20 yards. Any suggestions. Moving rest didn't seem to make much difference









See how the bare shaft enters at a weird angle? I'm new to tuning btw. Looks like it's traveling sideways the whole way


----------



## bartman9

I get the same angled bareshaft... just opposite of yours since I am right handed.


----------



## gutthooked

This is a great thread with lots of good info.


----------



## d_rek

I'm a believer in bareshaft tuning. Best way to get broadheads and field points to hit together IMO.


----------



## nuts&bolts

soutthpaw said:


> Would this be reversed for a left hand shooter. My bear shafts are 9 inches right of fletched arrows at 20 yards. Any suggestions. Moving rest didn't seem to make much difference.
> 
> See how the bare shaft enters at a weird angle? I'm new to tuning btw. Looks like it's traveling sideways the whole way


1) double the length of your d-loop, so you anchor farther back on your head/face. SWING elbow behind your head, more counter-clockwise, if a video cam was above your head, pointing straight down.

2) shorten all cables, to shorten ATA, which GROWS brace height, which GROWS the draw length. Try 1/16th longer brace, then try 1/8th inch longer brace, then try a total of 1/4-inch LONGER brace height...yes, OUT OF SPEC on purpose. With the brace growing longer and longer, you will anchor farther back on your head/face. With the farther back anchor on your head and face, SWING the release elbow MORE behind your head, twist your upper body and shoulders MORE counter-clockwise. DUMP the open stance, and get your stance for your upper body MORE parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.


----------



## soutthpaw

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) double the length of your d-loop, so you anchor farther back on your head/face. SWING elbow behind your head, more counter-clockwise, if a video cam was above your head, pointing straight down.
> 
> 2) shorten all cables, to shorten ATA, which GROWS brace height, which GROWS the draw length. Try 1/16th longer brace, then try 1/8th inch longer brace, then try a total of 1/4-inch LONGER brace height...yes, OUT OF SPEC on purpose. With the brace growing longer and longer, you will anchor farther back on your head/face. With the farther back anchor on your head and face, SWING the release elbow MORE behind your head, twist your upper body and shoulders MORE counter-clockwise. DUMP the open stance, and get your stance for your upper body MORE parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.


Thanks I will try this. I tried the yoke twists and it is better. Arrow still hits sideways. I did notice that the spacers on my cams are different widths top and bottom. I may have reversed one set when I changed out limbs, going to stop by dealer today and look at the new Perfexion bow and see how those are setup. That may be part of the issue took. The wide spacer is in the right on top can and on the left on bottom cam.


----------



## nuts&bolts

soutthpaw said:


> Thanks I will try this. I tried the yoke twists and it is better. Arrow still hits sideways. I did notice that the spacers on my cams are different widths top and bottom. I may have reversed one set when I changed out limbs, going to stop by dealer today and look at the new Perfexion bow and see how those are setup. That may be part of the issue took. The wide spacer is in the right on top can and on the left on bottom cam.


Bareshafts are missing to the RIGHT. So, if you were paper tuning, this would be a LEFT paper tear, the nock end of the bareshaft would be ripping to the LEFT. So, the FIX, with axle spacers is to move the CAMS (top and bottom) more to the LEFT. So, you want the WIDE spacer to the RIGHT side of the cam, and you want the SKINNY spacer to the LEFT side of the cam. So, bottom axle, swap the WIDE spacer to the RIGHT side of the bottom cam, and the SKINNY spacer on the LEFT side of the bottom cam. THIS will further improve things.


----------



## soutthpaw

nuts&bolts said:


> Bareshafts are missing to the RIGHT. So, if you were paper tuning, this would be a LEFT paper tear, the nock end of the bareshaft would be ripping to the LEFT. So, the FIX, with axle spacers is to move the CAMS (top and bottom) more to the LEFT. So, you want the WIDE spacer to the RIGHT side of the cam, and you want the SKINNY spacer to the LEFT side of the cam. So, bottom axle, swap the WIDE spacer to the RIGHT side of the bottom cam, and the SKINNY spacer on the LEFT side of the bottom cam. THIS will further improve things.


This is not reversed for left hand shooter?


----------



## nuts&bolts

soutthpaw said:


> This is not reversed for left hand shooter?


What happens with a LEFT handed jet pilot, and a RIGHT handed jet pilot? Arrow is a jet, an object that flies through the air. So, the JET wants to make a RIGHT turn through the air. Which way do you rotate the steering wheel on a jet? How about a car. Car wants to make a right lane change. Which way does the LEFT handed car driver spin the steering wheel to make a RIGHT lane change? Which way does the RIGHT handed car driver spin the steering wheel to make a RIGHT lane change?

I am RIGHT handed. My bareshaft misses 8-inches to the LEFT of the x-ring, when fletched arrows hit the middle of the target at 20 yards. SO, I GROW the brace height and I GROW the draw length.

YOU are LEFT handed. YOUR bareshaft misses 8-inches to the RIGHT of the x-ring, when fletched arrows hit the middle of the target at 20 yards. So, YOU GROW the brace height and you GROW the draw length to fix this.

So, YOKE tuning. LEft handed shooter. BIG deal. So, YOKE tuning. RIGHT handed shooter. BIG deal. Arrow does not care if you are left handed or right handed. A LEFT paper tear is a LEFT paper tear. This means, the BACK end of the arrow, the NOCK end, is ripping the paper to the LEFT. So, if you have YOKE legs, you TWIST, you SHORTEN the left yoke leg. BAM. YOKE tuning works the same way for LEFT handed shooters and RIGHT handed shooters, cuz the arrow flying through the air could not care less, what hand holds the bow.

So, shimming or moving a cam sideways with spacers. LEFT handed shooter. BIG deal. So, shimming a cam sideways, which means moving a cam sideways. RIGHT handed shooter. BIG deal. When an arrow, a bareshaft is missing to the RIGHT of the x-ring, the fletched arrows are all in the middle, but the BARESHAFT is missing right, this means, if you shine a laser pointer, from where your bow is located on the shooting line, the bareshafts are flying off to the RIGHT. So, the POINTY end of the bareshaft is skidding through the air to the RIGHT. So, the NOCK end of the baresahft is skidding through the air to the LEFT. BUT BUT BUT, what if I hold the laser pointer with my LEFT hand? SAme thing. Laser pointer is pointed to the RIGHT of the target face. BUT BUT BUT, what if I hold the laser pointer with my RIGHT hand? Same thing. Laser POINTER is pointed to the RIGHT of the target face. You mean, if I hold the laser pointer with my left hand, if I hold the laser pointer with my right hand, you mean, if I hold the laser pointer with my RIGHT hand, pointed at the bareshaft, the laser pointer will still point to the right of the target face, where the bareshaft is sticking into the target? Ya don't say?

So, bareshaft sticking into the RIGHT of the hay bale, means a LEFT paper tear. So, a LEFT paper tear, you MOVE the cam or CAMS (Both cams) closer to the LEFT side of the axle. So, FAT spacer goes on the RIGHT side of the cam, and SKINNY spacer goes on the LEFT side of the cam. Work with factory stock spacers and if this is not enough correction, then, look into custom thickness spacers for axles, from DBLlungit.


----------



## soutthpaw

nuts&bolts said:


> What happens with a LEFT handed jet pilot, and a RIGHT handed jet pilot? Arrow is a jet, an object that flies through the air. So, the JET wants to make a RIGHT turn through the air. Which way do you rotate the steering wheel on a jet? How about a car. Car wants to make a right lane change. Which way does the LEFT handed car driver spin the steering wheel to make a RIGHT lane change? Which way does the RIGHT handed car driver spin the steering wheel to make a RIGHT lane change?
> 
> I am RIGHT handed. My bareshaft misses 8-inches to the LEFT of the x-ring, when fletched arrows hit the middle of the target at 20 yards. SO, I GROW the brace height and I GROW the draw length.
> 
> YOU are LEFT handed. YOUR bareshaft misses 8-inches to the RIGHT of the x-ring, when fletched arrows hit the middle of the target at 20 yards. So, YOU GROW the brace height and you GROW the draw length to fix this.
> 
> So, YOKE tuning. LEft handed shooter. BIG deal. So, YOKE tuning. RIGHT handed shooter. BIG deal. Arrow does not care if you are left handed or right handed. A LEFT paper tear is a LEFT paper tear. This means, the BACK end of the arrow, the NOCK end, is ripping the paper to the LEFT. So, if you have YOKE legs, you TWIST, you SHORTEN the left yoke leg. BAM. YOKE tuning works the same way for LEFT handed shooters and RIGHT handed shooters, cuz the arrow flying through the air could not care less, what hand holds the bow.
> 
> So, shimming or moving a cam sideways with spacers. LEFT handed shooter. BIG deal. So, shimming a cam sideways, which means moving a cam sideways. RIGHT handed shooter. BIG deal. When an arrow, a bareshaft is missing to the RIGHT of the x-ring, the fletched arrows are all in the middle, but the BARESHAFT is missing right, this means, if you shine a laser pointer, from where your bow is located on the shooting line, the bareshafts are flying off to the RIGHT. So, the POINTY end of the bareshaft is skidding through the air to the RIGHT. So, the NOCK end of the baresahft is skidding through the air to the LEFT. BUT BUT BUT, what if I hold the laser pointer with my LEFT hand? SAme thing. Laser pointer is pointed to the RIGHT of the target face. BUT BUT BUT, what if I hold the laser pointer with my RIGHT hand? Same thing. Laser POINTER is pointed to the RIGHT of the target face. You mean, if I hold the laser pointer with my left hand, if I hold the laser pointer with my right hand, you mean, if I hold the laser pointer with my RIGHT hand, pointed at the bareshaft, the laser pointer will still point to the right of the target face, where the bareshaft is sticking into the target? Ya don't say?
> 
> So, bareshaft sticking into the RIGHT of the hay bale, means a LEFT paper tear. So, a LEFT paper tear, you MOVE the cam or CAMS (Both cams) closer to the LEFT side of the axle. So, FAT spacer goes on the RIGHT side of the cam, and SKINNY spacer goes on the LEFT side of the cam. Work with factory stock spacers and if this is not enough correction, then, look into custom thickness spacers for axles, from DBLlungit.


Thank you, you are wealth of knowledge, I appreciate you taking the time to share and educate others.


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## bartman9

nuts&bolts said:


> ....Shorten all cables 1 twist, to decrease ATA, which increases brace height, which increases draw length.


Alan, I am pretty new to working on my own bow, so appreciate your help, even if this is a stupid question. By "shorten all cables", do you mean yokes, bus cable and control cable?

Thanks,
Dave


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## soutthpaw

bartman9 said:


> Alan, I am pretty new to working on my own bow, so appreciate your help, even if this is a stupid question. By "shorten all cables", do you mean yokes, bus cable and control cable?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


To add, this means cables, but not string, right?


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## nuts&bolts

bartman9 said:


> Alan, I am pretty new to working on my own bow, so appreciate your help, even if this is a stupid question. By "shorten all cables", do you mean yokes, bus cable and control cable?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


If you have a buss cable, then, the buss cable has three end loops. So, the buss cable, if you only want to shorten ATA, just work the bottom end loop. This will shorten ATA and this will grow brace height, and this will also grow the draw length. So, to shorten the control cable, which is your other cable, gotta play with how much to shorten the control cable, cuz this affects vertical nock travel. That means, you shorten the control cable for BEST results, meaning, adjusting the TALLNESS of your fletched arrow groups at FLAT as possible. If fletched arrow groups at 2-inches tall, then, mess with the control cable and see if you can make the 2-inch TALL fletched arrow groups (highest to lowest arrow point of impact) see if you can shrink that down to 1.5-inches tall (highest impact for fletched arrow to lowest impact for fletched arrow). So, if you end up shortening the buss cable (bottom end loop), say 3 twists...then, the control cable might give you bEST results if you shorten the control cable 1 twist or maybe 1.5 twists or maybe 2 twists or maybe 2.5 twists or maybe 3 twists. You get the idea.

If you are a left handed shooter, and the bareshafts are missing to the RIGHT of the bullseye, GROW the draw length by shortening ALL cables.

BUT, what about the yoke legs? Yoke legs are used to fine tune cam lean. WHY can't ya just FIX the bareshaft missing to the RIGHT, for a left handed shooter, by ONLY messing with the yoke legs? RESERVE the yoke legs for FINE tuning things. Shoot 60 yards, and measure how WIDE your fletched groups are. If you are a beginner, then, maybe your 60 yard groups at 12-inches wide or 10-inches wide. So, try a twist or two on ONE yoke leg, and see if you can shrink your 60 yard groups, 1-inch more narrow. For only 20 yards tuning, play with the ATA, which means play with the BRACE height, which really means, lets mess with small changes in draw length, to tighten up groups at 20 yards, as MUCH as you can. 

Example. Only a 1/4-inch change in BRACE height, which really means a 1/4-inch change in draw length, by messing with the ATA, which means changing brace height, which really means, messing with draw length, by twisting ALL cables (shorten the buss cable, and shorten the control cable).

BEFORE at 29-inches of DRAW length, bow in SPEC. AFTER at 29.25-inches of draw length, bow OUT of SPEC, on purpose. Do this first, get the group at 20 yards, as TIGHT as you can, by messing with the length of your two cables. AFTER you get the arrows touching at 20 yards, then, venture to 30 yards or 40 yards, and NOW, mess with ONE leg of the two yoke legs, to see if you can tighten up the 30 and 40 yd groups.


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## nuts&bolts

soutthpaw said:


> To add, this means cables, but not string, right?


Bareshaft missing RIGHT of the bullseye. LEFT handed shooter. So, GROW the draw length, by WORKING the C A B L E S, and not the S T R I N G. The CABLES, shorten the CABLES. Play with the CABLES...you know, the two long skinny things that have no d-looop, those two long skinny things that have no peep sight, on your 16' Expedition.


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## bartman9

Okay that is very helpful - thanks! One last question (for now), when messing with the yokes, if I twist one, do I always have to untwist the other one? Or can I mess with one at a time?


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## nuts&bolts

bartman9 said:


> Okay that is very helpful - thanks! One last question (for now), when messing with the yokes, if I twist one, do I always have to untwist the other one? Or can I mess with one at a time?


Right handed bow. Two yoke legs. LEFT side yoke leg will have very little twists in it, by design. RIGHT side yoke leg will have a LOT of twists in it, again, by design, cuz the RIGHT leg needs to be shorter. So, when you have two bicycle tires, and you adjust the air pressure in ONE tire, do you ALWAYS have to adjust the tire pressure by the EXACT same amount, in the other tire?


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## nuts&bolts

bartman9 said:


> Okay that is very helpful - thanks! One last question (for now), when messing with the yokes, if I twist one, do I always have to untwist the other one? Or can I mess with one at a time?


Since the two yoke legs are ALWAYS unequal lengths....ONE yoke leg has very very little twists, and the OTHER yoke leg has a LOT of twists....short answer, NO, you do not HAVE to untwist the other one. You want to keep the cam lean so the top cam leans a tiny bit. HOW much is a tiny bit? Use an arrow like a ruler. PUT the arrow on the LEFT side of the top cam, and tweak the yoke leg lengths, so the POINT of the arrow lines up with the RIGHT edge of the center serving.










Notice how the left side has very few twists.
Notice how the RIGHT side yoke leg has lots of twists. THIS is normal.










PINCH the arrow on the LEFT side of the top cam. Now, let's look at the point of the arrow.










Bow is at brace height. THis amount of cam lean is a good starting point for tuning. So, the right yoke leg has LOTS and LOTS of twists. So, the LEFT yoke leg has very little twists. THEREFORE, if you mess with ONE yoke leg, let's say you MESS with the LEFT yoke leg (lets' say you ADD 1 twist to the LEFT yoke leg). Do you untwist the RIGHT yoke leg only ONE TWIST? Nope. So, if you ADD 1 twist to the LEFT yoke leg, how many twists do you REMOVE from the RIGHT, super TIGHTLY twisted YOKE leg?

Use the arrow ruler. ADD 1 twist from the LEFT yoke leg (nearly no twists), you might need no change to the RIGHT yoke leg. LEFT yoke leg has nearly zero twists, so 1 extra twist on the LEFT yoke leg has nearly no change in cam lean angle.

WHAT about if you REMOVE 1 twist from the RIGHT yoke leg, the yoke leg with LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of twists? CUz the RIGHT yoke leg is twisted really tight, then, even REMOVING 1 twist from the RIGHT yoke leg, will make a NOTICEABLE change in the top cam lean angle. So, to get the arrow ruler back to a good point...get it, a good POINT, you might need to ADD 2 or 2.5 or 3 twists to the LEFT yoke leg, to make the arrow ruler look like this again.


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## soutthpaw

nuts&bolts said:


> Right handed bow. Two yoke legs. LEFT side yoke leg will have very little twists in it, by design. RIGHT side yoke leg will have a LOT of twists in it, again, by design, cuz the RIGHT leg needs to be shorter. So, when you have two bicycle tires, and you adjust the air pressure in ONE tire, do you ALWAYS have to adjust the tire pressure by the EXACT same amount, in the other tire?


Except Xpedition bows that have two different size washers for attaching the left and right yoke cable so twists are about the same. 
So I now understand what the physics is all about with this. We are trying to get the string to travel in an exact plane that is perfectly parallel to the front to back plane of the riser. If the string is going from rear left to front right as the bow is shot it pushes the rear of the arrow to the right and vice versa. Hence why the left right handed makes no difference because we are only looking at string lateral travel in relation to bow riser and this is the same no matter which handed bow it is. [emoji197] [emoji106] 

Success, I switched the bottom spacers so fat one in the right, reset the twists in the yokes, which put me at a right tear. Added 4 twists to the right yoke and was back to a left tear. Now I had a range to work in. Backed off the 4 right twists and then went to the described adding one to the left and removing one from the right. Until I got down to a half twist adjustment. As an amateur, at 20 yards, I'm pretty happy with the results considering it was windy outside too. I'll check this result at the indoor range, then I think I'm ready to move to paper tuning. Never done paper tuning so I will be reading up about that here on AT as well. Appreciate all the help and great info.


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## nuts&bolts

Nice shooting. Well done.


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## efey

Got to work bareshaft tuning at 20 yards on my “new to me” carbon spyder ZT 34. Paper tuning done. Mod French tuning done. Started with bareshaft hitting several inches low and 2” right. Made yoke adjustments and slight rest adjustment and got where I wanted to be. But the bareshaft still struck nock high. Took several more bareshaft shots. One struck on left edge of group. Next on right edge of group but near touching group both time. So obviously there is some inconsistency in my form, but was still tight to group with bareshaft at 20. So I do not know how to fix slight nock high or if it needs fixing. Could it partially be to me not bending at the waist on shot or shooting a target at my knee level? Pictures attached. I am aiming at the target in the picture just as I was during tuning. Advise appreciated.


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## nuts&bolts

Pick ONE cable, any of the two cables. Vertical nock travel is adjusted with the CABLE, not the arrow rest. Control cable. Add or remove twists, until the groups get tighter, vertically. The buss cable works in the opposite direction, for vertical control. REMOVE or ADD twists, to the bottom of the buss cable, to get groups tighter vertically. Your bareshafts are not bad for 20 yards. So, shoot fletched groups at 40 yards. Play with the cable, ONE cable, and shorten or lengthen, to get tighter groups, to shrink the vertical miss pattern. Shoot fletched groups at 50 yards. Say your group of fletched arrows is 9-inches tall, from bottom most arrow to top most arrow. So, pick a cable, and mess with the twists. When you figure out the correct direction (add or remove twists) the 9-inch group size will flatten to 8-inch group size. Keep tweaking the cable (won't take much) and the 8-inch group size becomes a 7-inch group size. You get the idea.

FIX the bow hand. FINGERS like a pitchfork, never gives you the BEST results.










THIS works MUCH better, than pitchfork bow finger style.


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## efey

nuts&bolts said:


> Pick ONE cable, any of the two cables. Vertical nock travel is adjusted with the CABLE, not the arrow rest. Control cable. Add or remove twists, until the groups get tighter, vertically. The buss cable works in the opposite direction, for vertical control. REMOVE or ADD twists, to the bottom of the buss cable, to get groups tighter vertically. Your bareshafts are not bad for 20 yards. So, shoot fletched groups at 40 yards. Play with the cable, ONE cable, and shorten or lengthen, to get tighter groups, to shrink the vertical miss pattern. Shoot fletched groups at 50 yards. Say your group of fletched arrows is 9-inches tall, from bottom most arrow to top most arrow. So, pick a cable, and mess with the twists. When you figure out the correct direction (add or remove twists) the 9-inch group size will flatten to 8-inch group size. Keep tweaking the cable (won't take much) and the 8-inch group size becomes a 7-inch group size. You get the idea.
> 
> FIX the bow hand. FINGERS like a pitchfork, never gives you the BEST results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THIS works MUCH better, than pitchfork bow finger style.


Thanks for quick response! I will work on it this afternoon.


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## be_the_arrow

efey said:


> Got to work bareshaft tuning at 20 yards on my “new to me” carbon spyder ZT 34. Paper tuning done. Mod French tuning done. Started with bareshaft hitting several inches low and 2” right. Made yoke adjustments and slight rest adjustment and got where I wanted to be. But the bareshaft still struck nock high. Took several more bareshaft shots. One struck on left edge of group. Next on right edge of group but near touching group both time. So obviously there is some inconsistency in my form, but was still tight to group with bareshaft at 20. So I do not know how to fix slight nock high or if it needs fixing. Could it partially be to me not bending at the waist on shot or shooting a target at my knee level? Pictures attached. I am aiming at the target in the picture just as I was during tuning. Advise appreciated.


Might fix that nock high by moving the activation cable for your rest down your limb closer to the riser too. 1/4" can make the difference. Worth a shot before you go tweaking everything else.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## cooperjd

Alan, 

I tried to search this thread but i cannot find exactly what i'm looking for.

Bowtech ODB cam systems...

since this system has 2 cable stops, adjusting a length of one cable to fix vertical nock travel can throw the cams out of sync to get a mushy back wall feel.

since this system is advantageous to have the cams very close to sync'd for the solid back wall... do i start tweaking the rest up/down ever so slightly to help? or should i suck it up and have the cams slightly out of sync and deal with the wall feel?


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## Kris87

cooperjd said:


> Alan,
> 
> I tried to search this thread but i cannot find exactly what i'm looking for.
> 
> Bowtech ODB cam systems...
> 
> since this system has 2 cable stops, adjusting a length of one cable to fix vertical nock travel can throw the cams out of sync to get a mushy back wall feel.
> 
> since this system is advantageous to have the cams very close to sync'd for the solid back wall... do i start tweaking the rest up/down ever so slightly to help? or should i suck it up and have the cams slightly out of sync and deal with the wall feel?


Use the d-loop and the rest height for your vertical issues. I wouldn't take it out of sync.


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## Oncorhynchus

tagged


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## Ruttin BUX

tagged


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## AlienX

Tagged

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## labyrinth888

If BOTH bareshafts are hitting 4-inches to the RIGHT of the fletched arrows,
then...

go ahead,
and tweak the left side yoke cable leg (shorter...add a twist)
and
tweak the right side yoke cable leg (longer..remove a twist).

If the first bareshaft hits RIGHT of the fletched arrows
and
if the next bareshaft hits LEFT of the fletched arrows...

gotta do some more work on your shooting consistency.[/QUOTE]

hello !
first i have to thank you for all the informations that you gave on this post !
super accurate , and clear !

i just wonder if the same logic for yoke tunning works the same for a left handed bow ?

bare shaft to the right of fleched arrows ajust the left yoke shorter and right longer 
bare shaft to the left ajust the form 

bare shaft at 20yards was good on left and right 
but i was higher , i corrected with the rest and im getting very close but my rest is really low now , almost touching the riser ...
and i also have a very constant lean knock low on every shot 

should i adjust the bottom cable ?

my timing is perfect 
i did french tunning or walk back at 50 yards and im pretty steady on results 
i shoot a HOYT rx1 turbo cam#2 63lbs
arrow spine 340 
draw length mesurement 27'' but i feel it is a bit long 

what are your experienced advices about the lean ?

before adjustement








after adjustements








posture is ok ? or too far behing ?








i also wonder since hoyt has move down the handle the Dloop is not centered between axle to axle 
that must affect the way arrows leaves the bow ?


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## nuts&bolts

Yes. The arrow does not know if you are left handed or right handed. So, if the Bareshaft Arrow hits to the RIGHT of your fletched arrows, add a twist to the LEFT yoke leg.


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## nuts&bolts

Return your arrow rest back to the original position, so the arrow is 90 degrees to your bowstring. LEAVE the arrow rest alone. Bareshaft hitting HIGH is not an arrow rest problem. BARESHAFT hitting high is a CABLE problem. Your bow probably has TWO cables. PICK ONE cable and leave the other cable alone. You have a 50/50 percent chance to guess the correct direction to adjust the ONE cable you are working with. So, pick a direction. Do I ADD or do I REMOVE half a twist. If you are shooting 18 meters, then 1/2 twist will make a difference you can see. Use a notebook, if you have short term memory trouble. Let's say you decide ADD 1/2 twist. Write down ADD 1/2 twist to your notebook. Press your bow and ADD 1/2 twist. Shoot arrows. If the result is WORSE, then, goto the press and press the bow. REMOVE 1/2 twist. You have returned to the beginning. Now, REMOVE another 1/2 twist. Shoot arrows. REsults should be better. If you need MORE adjustment, if you want to see if you can get MORE improvement, then, REMOVE another 1/2 twist from the SAME cable. LEAVE the other cable alone.


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## nuts&bolts

So, some people do not like to play with a CABLE to fix a Bareshaft hitting HIGHer than fletched arrows. THey prefer to move the d-loop HIGHER on the bowstring. Well, if you move the d-looop HIGHER on the bowstring, yes, you will fix the Bareshaft, but you also need to MOVE The peep sight UP, and then, fix the peep rotation, because the peep will now point crooked, if you slide the peep sight UP the bowstring. Your choice.


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## labyrinth888

nuts&bolts said:


> Yes. The arrow does not know if you are left handed or right handed. So, if the Bareshaft Arrow hits to the RIGHT of your fletched arrows, add a twist to the LEFT yoke leg.





nuts&bolts said:


> Return your arrow rest back to the original position, so the arrow is 90 degrees to your bowstring. LEAVE the arrow rest alone. Bareshaft hitting HIGH is not an arrow rest problem. BARESHAFT hitting high is a CABLE problem. Your bow probably has TWO cables. PICK ONE cable and leave the other cable alone. You have a 50/50 percent chance to guess the correct direction to adjust the ONE cable you are working with. So, pick a direction. Do I ADD or do I REMOVE half a twist. If you are shooting 18 meters, then 1/2 twist will make a difference you can see. Use a notebook, if you have short term memory trouble. Let's say you decide ADD 1/2 twist. Write down ADD 1/2 twist to your notebook. Press your bow and ADD 1/2 twist. Shoot arrows. If the result is WORSE, then, goto the press and press the bow. REMOVE 1/2 twist. You have returned to the beginning. Now, REMOVE another 1/2 twist. Shoot arrows. REsults should be better. If you need MORE adjustment, if you want to see if you can get MORE improvement, then, REMOVE another 1/2 twist from the SAME cable. LEAVE the other cable alone.




you are so patient , and helpfull !
it is so uncommun !
thanks a lot again !

i ll try to work on the cable and see the result 
correct me if im wrong but add or remove twist will affect timing ? or at least the stopper sync postion ?
im not sure do make the difference between timing and cam sync !!
well i ll try anyway that is how you learn !

do you think my draw length is too long on the picture ?

and and really want to thank you again 
have ever tought on editing a book or e book with tuning procedure ? protocols ?

i ll be glade to support your work !!!!


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## nuts&bolts

labyrinth888 said:


> you are so patient , and helpfull !
> it is so uncommun !
> thanks a lot again !
> 
> i ll try to work on the cable and see the result
> correct me if im wrong but add or remove twist will affect timing ? or at least the stopper sync postion ?
> im not sure do make the difference between timing and cam sync !!
> well i ll try anyway that is how you learn !
> 
> do you think my draw length is too long on the picture ?
> 
> and and really want to thank you again
> have ever tought on editing a book or e book with tuning procedure ? protocols ?
> 
> i ll be glade to support your work !!!!


I have an e book. Guide to Tuning and Shooting Compound bows. I wrote this book several years ago. Lots of photos.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiuvta0rytqyfur/Nuts & Bolts Of Archery 2012 Updated version.pdf?dl=0


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## nuts&bolts

labyrinth888 said:


> you are so patient , and helpfull !
> it is so uncommun !
> thanks a lot again !
> 
> i ll try to work on the cable and see the result
> correct me if im wrong but add or remove twist will affect timing ? or at least the stopper sync postion ?
> im not sure do make the difference between timing and cam sync !!
> well i ll try anyway that is how you learn !
> 
> do you think my draw length is too long on the picture ?
> 
> and and really want to thank you again
> have ever tought on editing a book or e book with tuning procedure ? protocols ?
> 
> i ll be glade to support your work !!!!


Photo is only photo of your head. Insufficient information. I need a full body photo like this. Blank wall behind you. Stick a strip of masking tape to the wall behind you, above shoulder height. Make the tape perfectly horizontal. Then, take the photo and redo the photo as many times as you need, until you have your bow hand high enough so the arrow is perfectly parallel to the tape. Wear shoes on your feet, because shoes change how you stand.


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## Lennyo3034

First picture is how my used Triax was shooting when I got it. In the shop with was a bullet hole at 4 yards.

I moved the rest a bit and ended up with second and third picture. Am I good to go or do I need to take it to shop? I don’t have equipment to do anything other than play with rest.

Shots were at 20 yards.


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## whack n stack

Lennyo3034 said:


> First picture is how my used Triax was shooting when I got it. In the shop with was a bullet hole at 4 yards.
> 
> I moved the rest a bit and ended up with second and third picture. Am I good to go or do I need to take it to shop? I don’t have equipment to do anything other than play with rest.
> 
> Shots were at 20 yards.


You are super close! It looks as though you are having a low nock..just a touch(very last pic). You could drop your rest a fuzz or raise your d-loop to get the tail of the shaft up.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Dooger

Tagged again


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## Lennyo3034

whack n stack said:


> You are super close! It looks as though you are having a low nock..just a touch(very last pic). You could drop your rest a fuzz or raise your d-loop to get the tail of the shaft up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


So I took it back to the shop to paper tune. He measured where my rest was in relation to the riser and said it was way off. He's tuned many Mathews Triax's and all of them fell within a range.

He said my issue was the vane contacting the riser as I shot. Sure enough, there wasn't enough clearance so he indexed all of my arrows. I haven't tested it since and his target was down (construction), but does this seem feasible? The vane definitely did not have clearance before indexing so would it contacting the riser during the shot cause the arrow to wobble?


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## DRG3

Tagged


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## nuts&bolts

Lennyo3034 said:


> So I took it back to the shop to paper tune. He measured where my rest was in relation to the riser and said it was way off. He's tuned many Mathews Triax's and all of them fell within a range.
> 
> He said my issue was the vane contacting the riser as I shot. Sure enough, there wasn't enough clearance so he indexed all of my arrows. I haven't tested it since and his target was down (construction), but does this seem feasible? The vane definitely did not have clearance before indexing so would it contacting the riser during the shot cause the arrow to wobble?


Absolutely.


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## B. Jack

That's Great!


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## whack n stack

Lennyo3034 said:


> So I took it back to the shop to paper tune. He measured where my rest was in relation to the riser and said it was way off. He's tuned many Mathews Triax's and all of them fell within a range.
> 
> He said my issue was the vane contacting the riser as I shot. Sure enough, there wasn't enough clearance so he indexed all of my arrows. I haven't tested it since and his target was down (construction), but does this seem feasible? The vane definitely did not have clearance before indexing so would it contacting the riser during the shot cause the arrow to wobble?


Any fletching contact will cause bad arrow flight/wobble. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Lennyo3034

whack n stack said:


> Any fletching contact will cause bad arrow flight/wobble.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Thanks, I took it back out and indexed the nock so there wouldn't be any contact. Fletched arrows shot pretty close to the bare shaft. The bare shaft was a little left in the group, but nothing like before.

Took a few shots at 50 yards with a lit nock to see for wobble. Some shots I thought I could see some wobble as it went downrange, others not. I'm thinking its may be due to my form.


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## GroceryHauler

Tagged

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## tdheilman

Tagged


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## CZMark

Great info, tagged


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## Rocky2242

Thanks


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## MSolorio87

GroceryHauler said:


> Tagged
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Clear some space in your inbox man. Trying to send you a message.


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## jdk99

tagged


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## NathanLukeArcher44

Is there anyother way to tune?!


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## hitnmiss

tagged


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## rylanh

wolbear said:


> Well, even though I have been an archery tech in two different shops over the last 13 years, and know my way around archery equipment pretty well, there is ALWAYS something to learn. As a quick history on me started with traditional equipment (still shoot a longbow from time to time) and transitioned into compounds. When I shot traditional bows, there was a bareshaft technique used to determine the correct spine arrow to use for optimal flight. As time passed, and arrows, broadheads etc... became more advanced, this technique lost momentum and many just didn't pay attention.
> 
> Let's fast forward to last season, I was shooting the Mathews Z7 and a Elite GT500, both bows very accurate, very nice rigs. Having left the archery tech profession to follow my 911 dispatcher career, I decided since I wasn't working on everyone else's equipment that I wanted to "perfect" mine. I got some info from multiple sources on tuning methods and accuracy tips. I ventured into the relm of bareshaft tuning with a compound. Now, I will say that last season I darn near pulled my hair out trying to get the bareshaft arrows to hit with the fletched arrows. I was adjusting the rest every other shot it seemed. Finally, setting the rest to get a bullet hole thru paper and forgetting about the bareshaft tuning.
> 
> Fast forward again to the present. I started to see the familiar threads popping up about the bare shaft tuning processes and how some were proclaiming great success and outstanding shooting after having done this tuning method. Against my better judgement, I decided it was time to try it again. This time however, I reached out to friends and techs that I felt were trust worthy and knowledgable in the matter. After preparing myself for the hair pulling (had the wifey give me a buzz cut as to not be able to grab the hair strands) I attempted to tune yesterday. I wanted to start close and did 5 yrds then 10 yrds, then finally 20 yrds. After much thought and deliberation, I decided to follow the instructions given by Alan (nuts and bolts). My first few shots showed a bareshaft hitting to the left of fletched arrows, a quick adjustment to the yokes and back out to the target. The left and right was corrected, but the bareshaft was slightly higher than the fletched arrows. Well, referred to the printed out instructions from Alan and adjusted the bus cable accordingly. Back to the target and this time, fletched arrows were touching bareshafts at 5 and 10 yards and within a inch at 20 yards. Now, I had tuned both bows (Reezen 7.0 and Z7) to a bullethole prior and was concerned the changes I made to both thru this process would change that. I found that both bows are shooting a perfect bullet hole @ 6' 12' & 20'.
> 
> Here's where it gets very interesting! Now let me state that I am by no means a super archer or championship accuracy material. I'm just an average guy that gets very anal about accuracy and equipment. So, having both bows tuned using bareshaft tuning (as instructed by nuts and bolts) I shot from 20,30,40, and finally 50 yrds. 20, 30 and 40 showed arrows very,very tightly grouped with 20 yrds touching,30 within 1/2 inch, 40 within an inch. Now, that is a great improvement already, but here's where the difference became truly apparent, my 50 yrds. groups, which normally was about the size of a honeydo mellon, (avaerage) dropped to the size of a baseball. I initially thought, geez, something must be wrong, must have just gotten lucky shooting that group, you know, sometimes everything just falls together and you shoot like a superstar! So, I decided to walk away for half an hour and get some other little things done and then return to try again. Well, upon my return and shooting my arrows were yet again settled into the bullseye (I use the inside circle of a masking tape roll to paint the bullseye circles). Now, for me at least, this was proof positive that when you listen to the right people and take your time and get a little anal about tuning, you can greatly improve you accuracy.
> 
> I just want to officially say, "Thank You" to Alan. It was his patience in answering my 20 million questions about this process that made it possible, and truly not that hard to do.
> 
> The following is the PM's I received from Alan and the procedures to achieve this:
> 
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> I also have a Mathews,
> an Apex 7.
> 
> The riser will TWIST some, at full draw,
> depending on your draw length
> and your draw weight.
> 
> So,
> we are correcting for the amount of riser twist (lateral nock travel),
> with bareshaft testing.
> 
> Fire a bareshaft at 20 yards,
> and
> fire fletched shafts at 20 yards.
> 
> Tweak your arrow rest so the fletched arrows are grouping at 20 yards.
> 
> IF THE BARESHAFT misses the fletched arrows,
> off to the right....
> 
> TWIST the left side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST shorter (add twist on left yoke leg)
> and
> UN-TWIST the right side yoke cable 1 FULL TWIST less (remove twist on right yoke leg)...
> 
> REPEAT until you get the bareshaft hitting with the fletched at 20 yards.
> 
> 
> IF the bareshaft now hits high, directly above the fletched (fixed left-right error on bareshaft)...
> 
> then,
> add a full twist to the bottom of the buss cable
> to adjust the cam position at full draw.
> 
> 
> When you have the left-right error fixed on the bareshaft
> and
> when you have the up-down error fixed on the bareshaft...
> 
> bareshaft AND fletched all in the 20 yard bullseye...
> 
> your groups will be noticeably TIGHTER.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by wolbear
> Alan, thanks for the info. I was always told to move the rest to get the fletched arrows and bareshafts to hit together. That's probably why it ticked me off so much and had me pulling my hair out.
> 
> Move the arrow rest to find centershot
> for FLETCHED arrows.
> 
> Tweak the yoke cable leg lengths,
> to fix lateral nock travel (basically the limb tips are untwisting, after you release the arrow).
> 
> I have completed hundreds of hours of testing
> compound bows and releases.
> 
> When you fix the compound bow lateral nock travel,
> you can shoot "properly spined", and a skosh weak and SUPER CRAZY stiff arrows
> out of the same bow,
> with fletched and with bareshaft arrows.
> 
> 
> 
> ONLY when you shoot a compound bow with FINGERS,
> will you get a WEAK arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting right of the fletched arrows
> and
> will you get a STIFF arrow shaft reaction
> with bareshafts hitting left of the fletched arrows.
> 
> 
> Ever see a FINGERS shooter with a compound bow
> try the GoldTip Triple X arrows, with 100 grain points
> or
> Easton Full Bore arrows with 100 grain points?
> 
> It will never happen, cuz it won't work.
> 
> With a release,
> you can tune a compound bow to shoot
> GoldTip 22 series, X-Cutters, 30X, or the Triple X arrows, no problem.
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello wolbear:
> 
> Always nice to learn something new.
> 
> 
> You have EXCELLENT scientific method,
> cuz,
> if you can repeat a new finding TWICE,
> then,
> you have solid results.
> 
> I am in the medical device field,
> and am working on an experimental replacement disc for the neck.
> So, we do testing of new designs...endless testing.
> 
> 
> So,
> now that we have the fletched arrow groups SMALLER
> (that's the whole point of tuning with bareshafts)...
> 
> now,
> gotta go the next step and check broadhead flight.
> 
> Make tiny adjustments to the arrow rest...
> skosh left...
> skosh right....
> 
> loosen the horizontal lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th left or 1/64th right
> loosen the vertical lock down bolt, so the bolt is still snug and tap the arrow rest say 1/64th up or 1/64th down
> 
> to super tune broadhead point of impact.
> 
> 
> The bareshaft tune has your yoke cables adjusted just so, and it's perfect.
> The bareshaft tune has your buss cable adjusted just so, and it is also perfect.
> 
> 
> So,
> when tweaking broadhead point of impact,
> we are making tiny adjustments
> to the arrow rest elevation
> and
> to the arrow rest horizontal position....
> 
> to fine tune the broadhead arrow starting / launch position.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly low or high of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching slightly left or right of PERFECT,
> then the BLADES will try to take over the steering and FIGHT with the vanes in back.
> 
> If the broadhead is starting / launching in PERFECT POSITION....
> then,
> the BLADES and the VANES have ZERO steering correction to do....
> 
> 
> this is why we tune with bareshafts.
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> if you like,
> please write up your findings of your experiments in the Gen Discussion section,
> so the next guy can learn from you.
> 
> Alan
> 
> Sorry so long, but really think everyone deserves to see you can improve your bow tune and accomplish excellent groups!


Thanks for the detailed explanation sir!


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