# 2010 OAA 3d Championships



## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Just wanted to let everyone know that, after a bunch of us talked at the OAA Field Championships this past weekend, there is going to be a proposal put through at the OAA annual meeting to change the rules and format for the 2010 OAA 3D Championships.

Here's the jist of the proposal.

- Change it from unmarked to marked distances.
- Change max shooting distance out to 70 yards (good sized target)
- Change to shooting 2 arrows per target.
- Change to 2 people at a time minimum, must shoot at each target, except in the event that you're group is an odd number. As an example. If you're shooting in a group of 3 then you'll end up shooting 2 an 1 or 1 and 2, etc,
- There will be an orange aiming dot placed in the 11/12 ring of each target that will score an X, NOT 11 or 12.
- The use of a range finder will be permitted for those that wish to use them to verify the target distance before they shoot.


That's the meat and potatoes of the proposal. We think this will be a great way of increasing participation in archery in Ontario by getting more of the serious target shooters over shooting some 3D. A similar kind of format is working great for the ASA in the USA so we think it will work out great for us and our sport of archery here in Ontario.

:thumb: :thumb:


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I think they call that field archery!!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*?????????*

are you talking field or real 3-d shooting... because I shot the oaa`s at flying feathers and most courses can`t handle that kind of venue or am I mistaken here in what you call 3-d ... ?????????


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

I'm onboard with the orange aiming dot, but changing it to marked distance won't fly in my opinion.

I think many things could be solved with Orange dots - the biggest being that it should speed things up SIGNIFICANTLY. Add orange dots and ban binoculars. No need for people to spend FOREVER glassing the target (and I'll freely admit to being guilty on that count!) and with no binos, no more argument that people are ranging the targets with their binos, and we all know there are people that do that...

The rest of the changes... Um, while they might even get passed because people aren't particularly participatory when it comes to the OAA general meetings, I don't think that they'd be well received by the core group of 3D shooters...

Should make for some interesting discussion though.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> are you talking field or real 3-d shooting... because I shot the oaa`s at flying feathers and most courses can`t handle that kind of venue or am I mistaken here in what you call 3-d ... ?????????


With little work, I would have to believe that all 3D courses in Ontario would be able to accomodate two up shooting.

I really think this proposed proposal has some merit, and will likely gather some steam. It's no secret that 3D archery in Ontario has been on a steady decline for years. Now this year is an off year for most venues, given the ecomony, but if you look at archery at a whole in Ontario for the past several years you will see that while Field, Outdoor Target, and Indoor Target have been enjoying a resurgance of sorts with numbers being up, 3D has continued to loose attendance. People just don't want to seem to play the game, regardless of what shooting rules are in place (Old OAA, new FCA etc).

So why not look at seriously shaking things up 

Some thoughts were passed around this past weekend at the Field Championships, in an effort to start some serious discussion about helping the ailing art of 3D.

General thought amongst target archers whom don't regularily attend 3D shoots is that it's not worth the bother to drive X amount of hours, spend potentially hundreds of travel dollars, to shoot 40 arrows. So why not increase the arrows shot on a traditional 3D round to 80 simply by shooting two arrows per target. Still far less than a field/hunter round or a fita round, but possibly now worth the drive 

Making 3D marked yardage.................. taking the guessing game out of the equation would likely appeal to a much larger segment of archers. This would include target archers, new archers, and those that may otherwise not participate because of the unknown. Now I realize this would be a contentious issue for the ardent 3D archer, but on a overall basis would it not be better to appeal to a larger market? The marked yardage 3D's that have been held have been well received....... something to that.

Shooting two up........ just a simple matter to speed up a 3D round, and cure some backlog issues. 3D archery is the only aspect of archery that shoots single up at a time.

Shooting out to 70yds......... this one was just a thought, some discussion would have to take place before this gets included in the proposal.

Dots on the X ring.......... two factors here, one it speeds up the round as there should be far less need for time spent behind bino's, and it levels the playing field as everyone now knows where the spot really is.

Use of rangefinders.............. most people use them in hunting situations anyways, so why not allow it in 3D?

Anyways, those were some of the thoughts passed around this weekend. I hope this thread spurs some good discussion, and that a final proposal can be hashed out in time for the submission to be included on this years AGM agenda. 

As well, hopefully we will see a good mix of archers present at the AGM to make sure that if the proposal is accepted, or regected, it will be done so by a good cross section of the OAA membership.

Cheers


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

:set1_chores030: :happy1:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Honestly, I think more people would shoot 3D if Championships were held within a 2-3 hours drive of the participants. That being impossible in Ontario so it will be what it is. 
Also, people know who will likely place in the top 3 anyhow so most folks won't bother to come out. That stings attendance at all archery venues at one time or another. Field, indoors, 3D. 
Sure, put out a Marked yardage Class just as suggested, but don't change all of the other classes to the new format. Likely you will see again that once the pecking order is established in that new class, attendance will fall off. Just look at the ASA Known 50 class. It will be Payne, Trail, Braden or Beaubeuf in the top 5. Since that sorted out, attendance is falling in that class since the start of the year. 

I'm all for shooting 2-3 up at the stake though. That sounds great!


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Bow bandit said:


> I think they call that field archery!!!


+1.......

I really thought that Mopar was just messin' around when I first read this....but thoses are some pretty big changes and really close to Field, isn't it?


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

If you want to go shoot field then go shoot field! At the OAA championships you already have to shoot 80 targets but none of you so called target guys would know that since you don't go!! 3d is not on the decline its just clubs are allowed to hold shoots on the same weekend as a club an hour away!!

You already have multiple target championships in Ontario we don't need another one! the unmarked yardage is what makes 3D unique. As for the time the are already time limits in place just enforce them. there are many other ways to speed up a tournament without turning it into a race.

Its like anything else you do! if you want to get better then go practice! even if you do this the same people will win and nothing will change with attendance because the few target archers you gain you will lose the true 
3D purists.

How many people where at the field championships this past weekend? cause if this is what will increase attendance you should have had 200 shooters.

How many people where at the running bear 3D this weekend?


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey I have an idea for you so called target guys, lets hire Caddy's to hold your bows and arrows and mabee they can shoot the arrows for you aswell so when you miss you can blame on them too. :mg::mg:


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

:violin::boink:


:happy1: epsi:

I'm with Pintobean!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I have another proposal lets make fita a One arrow shoot that might bring out more 3D shooters!:angel:


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

This all seems like a great idea - sort of a "Redding North". 
I'd go for sure.

How about haviung it unmarked, and allowing rangefinders, but also putting the distances on a hidden flip-up card at each stake so people without rangefinders could also have the option of checking the distance first? I think L-K did that once or twice.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Stan don't think about it because Bass pro won't give you the time off anyway!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey guy's I am on holidays and have all day to play your silly game if you want so post away... its gonna rain this afternoon anyway!


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

Hey Bowbandit, I usually like sarcasm but sometimes you need to tone it down just a bit... but no offense taken. If we aren't changing... we are dying.

I am sure a lot of 3-d shooters wouldn't like all of these proposals but I bet there could be some/most that like some of the ideas... it is called "brain storming" and that is where good discussion comes from. 

I also agree that the "dot" should be implemented. Just imagine how good Bowbandit and some others would shoot if they had a perfect aiming spot!! I mean that... no sarcasm. If you have seen him/them shoot you can be assured that most of their "misses" are from hitting the wrong place... Bowbandit can flat out shoot! 

I am not a fan of all of the everything proposed but that is just me... I still want 280fps brought back (never mind, Blake) but that is just the opinion of this short armed archer :teeth::teeth:

I hope we can have some well-mannered discussion here and skip the personal attacks. After all... I pray that all of us are here to improve the sport that we so much love.

Chris


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

lol...


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I have no problem with changes if they are well thought out...but 3d is has a good format now! sure it needs a little tweeking but I do not think a drastic overhaul is needed...

I am sure if a group of 3d shooters came on here and proposed the same drastic changes to the face of taget archery there would be some sort of revolt...

I participate in all forms of archery if time permits but my true passion is 3D so I am sorry if it comes across wrong when I speak on it!

But I do find it a bit suspicious when this past weekend I had Dave M put forth my official proposal to amend the 3D scoring back to the 12 ring scoring then a proposal comes forth that has the opposite in it from a group of archers that does not currenlty participate in 3d... so I have to question motives!

Sorry I have trust issues with a few of the people posting here but some of them and I have a history...you excluded Chris...


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Stash said:


> This all seems like a great idea - sort of a "Redding North".
> I'd go for sure.
> 
> How about haviung it unmarked, and allowing rangefinders, but also putting the distances on a hidden flip-up card at each stake so people without rangefinders could also have the option of checking the distance first? I think L-K did that once or twice.


Considering the huge attendance that Redding gets (with a larger percentage being average bowhunters/3D'rs) it certainly is something to seriously consider.

Good points Stan.



araz2114 said:


> Hey Bowbandit, I usually like sarcasm but sometimes you need to tone it down just a bit... but no offense taken. *If we aren't changing... we are dying.*
> I am sure a lot of 3-d shooters wouldn't like all of these proposals but I bet there could be some/most that like some of the ideas... it is called *"brain storming" and that is where good discussion comes from. *
> I also agree that the "dot" should be implemented. Just imagine how good Bowbandit and some others would shoot if they had a perfect aiming spot!! I mean that... no sarcasm. If you have seen him/them shoot you can be assured that most of their "misses" are from hitting the wrong place... Bowbandit can flat out shoot!
> 
> ...


Exactly Chris :thumb:



Bow bandit said:


> But I do find it a bit suspicious when this past weekend I had Dave M put forth my official proposal to amend the 3D scoring back to the 12 ring scoring then a proposal comes forth that has the opposite in it from a group of archers that does not currenlty participate in 3d... so I have to question motives!


I, for one, wasn't aware of your proposal until you mentioned it. 

This is simply a discussion to see if there is merit in a few ideas that were bantered around this weekend, by some folks who have interest in seeing the whole of archery thrive.

Cheers


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## M.cook (Jul 12, 2008)

*my humble opinion*

This is just my opinion but if you make that many changes you are taking away from the sport of 3d and changing it into somthing else. If the point is making a new sport to attract more people than go ahead but its not 3d anymore. I like the idea of having a new class that people can go in if they want rangefinders and some of the other proposed rule changes. By taking away the things that make 3d what it is (judging yardage) you take away the integrity of the sport and anything else would be a different game entirely.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

M.cook said:


> This is just my opinion but if you make that many changes you are taking away from the sport of 3d and changing it into somthing else. If the point is making a new sport to attract more people than go ahead but its not 3d anymore. I like the idea of having a new class that people can go in if they want rangefinders and some of the other proposed rule changes. By taking away the things that make 3d what it is (judging yardage) you take away the integrity of the sport and anything else would be a different game entirely.


Yup what he said!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I, for one, wasn't aware of your proposal until you mentioned it. 

This is simply a discussion to see if there is merit in a few ideas that were bantered around this weekend, by some folks who have interest in seeing the whole of archery thrive.

Funny how you get different stories from other people who were around!!!

But that is just hearsay, must be wrong!


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Blake,

I've told you the truth, whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. And quite frankly inconsequential to the main body of this discussion.

I believe the point to Mopars original post was to begin a discussion, and as Chris said to do some brain storming.

Do you have any thoughts you wish to share on the points proposed?


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Bow bandit said:


> But I do find it a bit suspicious when this past weekend I had Dave M put forth my official proposal to amend the 3D scoring back to the 12 ring scoring then a proposal comes forth that has the opposite in it from a group of archers that does not currenlty participate in 3d... so I have to question motives!


I knew nothing of your proposal when I made this thread. I made the thread in all seriousness to help making archery a little better here in Ontario and get some constructive thoughts and ideas flowing.

If you don't like what I am proposing that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't think there's any need for you to start stomping around like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum and slinging personal attacks towards people like you usually do.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

I think the game and format of 3D isn't 'broken'. They want to spice things up and improve attendance. Why not have a seperate course like Redding/ASA known 50 class. Have your marked yardage and dots and 80 targets. 
Allow the shooters to shoot their usually 3D class and range and then allow them to shoot the known course. 
Then were cooking with 120 shots for making it out for the weekend. (40 for 3D and 80 for the 'field 3D')


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*comon guys*

Sorry but this is my take on the situation... the fita guys have to stay out of making the 3-d rules or changes... I sent an e-mail to the 3-d international person mr mills or wills to not even receive a reply... first some one stated that 3-d was on the decline... maybe so but it brings out 5-10 times the shooters per tournament... if clubs relied on fita to support them they would be dead in the water.... On a bad day 3-d brings out 100 shooters at 20 dollars a head for entry monies of 2000 dollars at the gate ... when was the last time a fita or field did that...I am not bashing fita as I am a fita shooter.. but I am also a business man and know that if a venue cannot support its self it is gone... there are no money pits any more... Also I am going to the world 3-ds in the states this week how does 1800 shooters sound and run through per day with 14 or so courses... pretty impressive if you ask me... my thoughts of the original post are as follows... talk to the REAL 3-D CLUB DIRECTORS and then the masses for some educated and well thought out helpful ideas to bring numbers out... Sorry in advance if I have offended anyone here but guys think this out... the hoyt 3-d in quebec had 300 shooters per day and what brought them out was door prizes and just some real fun.... 3-d was invented to be a hunting situation tournament not paper punching like I am hearing in this post.. I was a 3-d tournament director for years and a fishing tournament director for tournaments that had 1500 entries in the city of Ottawa .. we gave away boats motors atvs and it turned into a television show.. If you really want any help then I know some people who hold tournaments and are club executives who could probably help and set some rules down .. about 15 of these people sat around my camper this weekend and had dinner together and there where some really interesting intelligent conversations.. I would be more than glad to help out ... when you want some advice on your teeth don`t you go to a dentist not a carpenter.... Pm me or even call me 613-297-5306 remember I`m at the worlds this week.... maybe I`ll come back even more educated in the skill of promoting 3-d archery, your never to old to learn...


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## q2xlbowhunter (Dec 28, 2004)

I think we put the 12's back and leave it alone, also if all the other types of archery are coming on so strong in Ontario did any of them have more attendance than the 3d championships? and down here in essex county our 3d is back on the rise with alot of the courses getting very good turnouts again. Also the IBO has weatherd the economy with great numbers at the national events, but if you look at the known distance classes in the ASA they have been down, I think there is enough known distance out there with all the target and field events that we can leave the 3d alone and keep it geared more for the hunter, we have to make decisions so there is a difference in the games we shoot and stop catering to a few peaple that have problem with their yardage or you will end up with the same small group attending all the different events.


Chris.


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## ingoldarchery (Dec 3, 2008)

I've shot 3D for a long time, and hearing this kind of proposal is a little extreme. I agree that we need to do something to get attendance up, but I don't think changing it to a "target" shoot is the way.
I like the idea of an orange dot on 12 ring, as this should help speed things up.
The use of range finders or marked distances is fine as long as they have a seperate class for these people that want to use them. All though I don't think the OAA wants another set of classes, or you structure the format that people using rangefinders/marked yardages can shoot with there peers but can never score any higher than a 10 and those shooting the normal way can score 12's.(like a handicap)
The other problem with attendance is the price of entry fee is *way* to high.
I think the higher speed limits was a positive for all classes, but would like to see x-bow limits lifted, and use arrow weight (min weight ) of bolts to determine speeds.( as we did with compounds)
And one last thing that would definitly help with attendance is not having three shoots on the same day all with in an hour of each other.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

CLASSICHUNTER

Seriously. It is great to see that the attendance in your neck of the woods is thriving, but around here we can expect 50-60 MAX...and I've only seen 1 shoot this year with that # (by the way...it was a marked yardage shoot). 
The average # we could expect is more like 30-40.

I would love to see a marked or rangefinder class to start....just to see what would happen. I sure wouldn't want all these proposed changes at one time. I love 3D, and use to be pretty good at it, but I just don't have the time to work on the judging part of it the last couple years like I use to.

my .02


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Grey Eagle said:


> Blake,
> 
> I've told you the truth, whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. And quite frankly inconsequential to the main body of this discussion.
> 
> ...


Dennis, nice to see you around agian, I guess I will see you at the club on a regular basis agian.

I have made my self clear on how I feel about people who do not attend 3D shoots in Ontario making the decisions for those who do!

I have said my piece and asked what I feel needed to be changed for now by sending in my proposal to the OAA as instructed.

You must understand if I question your motives, and say what you will about my so called attacks I view it more like defence from the target masses.

The chances that anyone who was at the field championships cares more about what happens in 3D than me is very slim, cause if they did they would be there.

Do as you will I am just one person with one view point I hope you get a great discusion on this topic so well informed decisions are made.

Good luck with your new tournament! you could call it the Marked Foam Field of Dreams Championships.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

If you guys are looking for ideas to help make 3D more appealing, I have one that I've been thinking about for a few years now. How about making the hunter release classes (MBR) take on the real meaning. I find that when you get guys that are new to 3D or any target archery show up with their hunting rigs with pins and a finger index release they are competing with guys that are shooting BT releases, target colour bows, big fat target arrows, Micro adjust shiny fixed pin sights, blade rests, barely legal stabilizers etc. etc. 
Make camo bows, hunting arrows, index finger releasers etc. (normal hunting equipment) the rule for the class. The guys that shoot 'target hunting rigs' can move up to open where they likely belong. 
If these hunting archers can feel that they are competing on a level playing field, they may be more apt to come back to a 3D shoot. 
Attracting new shooters is about perception. Around our parts we are getting 60-80 shooters per tourny again. Alot of them are just out for hunting practice but some would like to compete with their peers too.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

cath8r said:


> I think the game and format of 3D isn't 'broken'. They want to spice things up and *improve attendance*. Why not have a seperate course like Redding/ASA known 50 class. Have your marked yardage and dots and 80 targets.
> Allow the shooters to shoot their usually 3D class and range and then allow them to shoot the known course.
> Then were cooking with 120 shots for making it out for the weekend. (40 for 3D and 80 for the 'field 3D')


That's it in a nutshell Rob  And this is just about putting out a few ideas...... and hopeful that more will come out of it.



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Sorry but this is my take on the situation... the fita guys have to stay out of making the 3-d rules or changes... I sent an e-mail to the 3-d international person mr mills or wills to not even receive a reply... first some one stated that 3-d was on the decline... maybe so but it brings out 5-10 times the shooters per tournament... if clubs relied on fita to support them they would be dead in the water.... On a bad day 3-d brings out 100 shooters at 20 dollars a head for entry monies of 2000 dollars at the gate ... when was the last time a fita or field did that...I am not bashing fita as I am a fita shooter.. but I am also a business man and know that if a venue cannot support its self it is gone... there are no money pits any more... Also I am going to the world 3-ds in the states this week how does 1800 shooters sound and run through per day with 14 or so courses... pretty impressive if you ask me... my thoughts of the original post are as follows... talk to the REAL 3-D CLUB DIRECTORS and then the masses for some educated and well thought out helpful ideas to bring numbers out... Sorry in advance if I have offended anyone here but guys think this out... the hoyt 3-d in quebec had 300 shooters per day and what brought them out was door prizes and just some real fun.... 3-d was invented to be a hunting situation tournament not paper punching like I am hearing in this post.. I was a 3-d tournament director for years and a fishing tournament director for tournaments that had 1500 entries in the city of Ottawa .. we gave away boats motors atvs and it turned into a television show.. If you really want any help then I know some people who hold tournaments and are club executives who could probably help and set some rules down .. about 15 of these people sat around my camper this weekend and had dinner together and there where some really interesting intelligent conversations.. I would be more than glad to help out ... when you want some advice on your teeth don`t you go to a dentist not a carpenter.... Pm me or even call me 613-297-5306 remember I`m at the worlds this week.... maybe I`ll come back even more educated in the skill of promoting 3-d archery, your never to old to learn...


By all means come back with your (collective thoughts) There is no agenda here other than to improve the status quo. I think it is safe to say that if you, and the remainder of the hardcore 3D'rs took the time to have some serious input about helping the sport, that it would be welcomed. Put some thoughts forward, make the commitment to follow through, attend the AGM and make a difference.



q2xlbowhunter said:


> I think we put the 12's back and leave it alone, also if all the other types of archery are coming on so strong in Ontario did any of them have more attendance than the 3d championships? and down here in essex county our 3d is back on the rise with alot of the courses getting very good turnouts again. Also the IBO has weatherd the economy with great numbers at the national events, but if you look at the known distance classes in the ASA they have been down, I think there is enough known distance out there with all the target and field events that we can leave the 3d alone and keep it geared more for the hunter, we have to make decisions so there is a difference in the games we shoot and stop catering to a few peaple that have problem with their yardage or you will end up with the same small group attending all the different events.
> Chris.


Attendance at the 3D championships was 104 this year, the lowest it has ever been, and only a fraction of what it was in its prime. To say that it ain't broke is sticking your head in the sand. Attendance in all other venues in the province has been steadily rising.





ingoldarchery said:


> I've shot 3D for a long time, and hearing this kind of proposal is a little extreme. I agree that we need to do something to get attendance up, but I don't think changing it to a "target" shoot is the way.
> I like the idea of an orange dot on 12 ring, as this should help speed things up.
> The use of range finders or marked distances is fine as long as they have a seperate class for these people that want to use them. All though I don't think the OAA wants another set of classes, or you structure the format that people using rangefinders/marked yardages can shoot with there peers but can never score any higher than a 10 and those shooting the normal way can score 12's.(like a handicap)
> The other problem with attendance is the price of entry fee is *way* to high.
> ...


The dot idea seems to be a point that most can agree on, what about the idea of two up shooting?





Bow bandit said:


> Dennis, nice to see you around agian, I guess I will see you at the club on a regular basis agian.
> 
> I have made my self clear on how I feel about people who do not attend 3D shoots in Ontario making the decisions for those who do!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome back Blake  as for the club, that will really depend on my time and desire 

Just for thought, I believe the attendance at this weekends Field Championships was 38.... when I looked at the names on this years 3D Champs results, there were 12 people at both events. In addition, I can think of another 6 or so who were at the Fields that have shot at least one 3D this year (myself included). So I think it is not quite fair to say that those in field don't do 3D. Maybe not well  but some folks like to play all the games... as I know you do.

The point to having this discussion is to see if there is support suitable to make a proposal. No point in doing so if it appears that it does not have a reasonable backing.



cath8r said:


> If you guys are looking for ideas to help make 3D more appealing, I have one that I've been thinking about for a few years now. How about making the hunter release classes (MBR) take on the real meaning. I find that when you get guys that are new to 3D or any target archery show up with their hunting rigs with pins and a finger index release they are competing with guys that are shooting BT releases, target colour bows, big fat target arrows, Micro adjust shiny fixed pin sights, blade rests, barely legal stabilizers etc. etc.
> Make camo bows, hunting arrows, index finger releasers etc. (normal hunting equipment) the rule for the class. The guys that shoot 'target hunting rigs' can move up to open where they likely belong.
> If these hunting archers can feel that they are competing on a level playing field, they may be more apt to come back to a 3D shoot.
> Attracting new shooters is about perception. Around our parts we are getting 60-80 shooters per tourny again. Alot of them are just out for hunting practice but some would like to compete with their peers too.


I can remember the not too distance days when a local 3D attracted well in excess of 100 shooters, just a plain Sunday shoot. And it was not uncommon to see 60-80 in the old bowhunter unlimited class. That dried up far before the current economic downturn. Wonder why they all left?

This isn't about "target" archers trying to dictate or decide for anyone. It's about archers concerned, and looking for a way out and up.

Let's keep it coming


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*attn grey eagle*

I think that the agm should not be intertwined with any shoot weekend period... it should be held in a location that is central to the membership masses so they can EASILY ATTEND so you can have a FAIR VOTING QUORUM . As per the 104 shooters I`m sure there where more at madawaska than that plus you guys lost all the quebec shooters because I think the hoyt shoot was on and they had 300 per day and gave away 15 compound bows as door prizes... seems the oaa should be able to scrounge up at least a dozen from monsens from gerry at least ...no wonder they get good attendance.. plus what other shoots where on that weekend.. Joe florent did an excellent job and courses where great .. As others have stated 1800 shooters at the ibos this week and maybe more... Hope some of the exec is attending and shooting and taking the knowledge back to the powers to be.. again exec should have the membership or exec govern`d by even split of fita and 3-d shooters Since you have heard the real truths quickly in a few replies about numbers either up or rising I think these recommendations should be put to sleep real quickly or at least re thought.....sorry again if I ruffled feathers but that is just me .......


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> I think that the agm should not be intertwined with any shoot weekend period... it should be held in a location that is central to the membership masses so they can EASILY ATTEND so you can have a FAIR VOTING QUORUM .


The AGM is held every fall on a weekend all it's own. It is held in different locations every year. This year it's in Peterborough at Saugeen Shafts on October 25th. I know at the present I plan on attending...


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## Andy Bourgeois (Mar 11, 2008)

You want more people to attend the OAA Championship?
Let's get the governing bodies and organizations talking to each other so as NOT to shcedule their tournaments on the same dates! Good communication & flexibility people - Let's start there okay!
Suggestion #1 : bring back the 12 and forget the 10x (this was done to accomodate some of the people to have a qualifiyer to go to the world 3D in Italy as they needed an xtra qualifying event!)
Suggestion #2 : Take away the OAA membership and you would get more people to shoot. What do you get from the membership? a book that's filled with mistakes and you only need it to shoot 1 of the legs - so bring up the registration fee for the first leg instead - it is meant to be a fundraisor for the junior team.
Finally, all the clubs have to get together and support one and other and attend each other's shoot. Oddly enough, we, in the north often travel to the South but we seldom see as many people from the South at our shoots - albeit there are a few who come and it is great to have as you as for the others - all we hear is the whining that its too far. $$$ IT goes both ways.
As for attendence; it is on the rise in the North as far as 3D is concerned. We must be doing something right.! We give out lots of prizes and it works.
We also tried new ideas (i.e. a bhter unlted ProClass at the March 3D indoors with a cut off at a magic number; allowing 6 shooters to place and receive medals-we had good feedback).
At the second leg of the OAA Triple Crown there was nothing in terms of presentations and the course was sooooo long it would put off any new shooters; whats up with that? Although, hospitality was great as always and - welcome to the computer age - we sure did appreciate the use of our internet adresses to get the results - Way to go!
In the end, it is ALL volunteer work and you get what you put into it.
P.S. Why should field archers decide what will be policy & practise for 3D archers? Now that is a war in the making!!!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*great*

I`ll try to attend as well , do we have to ask to speak on an issue in advance, if so then we will need agenda well in advance to do so...thanks for the info


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> I think that the agm should not be intertwined with any shoot weekend period... it should be held in a location that is central to the membership masses so they can EASILY ATTEND so you can have a FAIR VOTING QUORUM . As per the 104 shooters I`m sure there where more at madawaska than that plus you guys lost all the quebec shooters because I think the hoyt shoot was on and they had 300 per day and gave away 15 compound bows as door prizes... seems the oaa should be able to scrounge up at least a dozen from monsens from gerry at least ...no wonder they get good attendance.. plus what other shoots where on that weekend.. Joe florent did an excellent job and courses where great .. As others have stated 1800 shooters at the ibos this week and maybe more... Hope some of the exec is attending and shooting and taking the knowledge back to the powers to be.. again exec should have the membership or exec govern`d by even split of fita and 3-d shooters Since you have heard the real truths quickly in a few replies about numbers either up or rising I think these recommendations should be put to sleep real quickly or at least re thought.....sorry again if I ruffled feathers but that is just me .......


No ruffled feathers here....... not on this eagle 

Seriously, I appreciate your comments, while I may vary in my own personal thoughts I can certainly respect the view points of others. Civil dialogue is healthy.

Tbolt has it right, the AGM is held in the fall (pretty much the same weekend each year) it never conflicts with any shoot, though it does cut into some hunting time. But in reality it would be hard to hold it at any time during the year when it did not conflict with something archery related. As to it's location, any club in Ontario is free to offer up suitable space to host the event, typically (as with most things) it comes down to which club is willing to host. This year it's Peterborough, last year it was York, the year before it was Kitchener. I think all those clubs are fairly centrally located in the province. Each year we have folks from all 5 zones of the province attend....... just wish it was more 

The voting quorom is made up of those whom make the effort to attend. Is it fair....... :noidea: .......... personally I would like to see a much larger attendance to ensure we are truly acting on behalf of the whole membership. 

As per the official results page on the OAA website, the attendance at this years 3D championships was 104 (unless my math is wrong). That is no slight against Joe Florent, Flying Feathers, or anyone else. Flying Feathers is a very healthy active club, and do a great job of promoting the sport.......... it's just a statement of fact.

I know the Hoyt shoot was on that weekend, what would you like us to do about that? The OAA 3D Championships have been held on or about the same weekend for ages. (the date is actually in the bylaws) Moving it any way would surely conflict with some other organization or shoot. Don't believe me, take the time to look at the OAA, IBO, ASA, NFAA, Fita, and NAA's schedules....... add in some high profile shoots like the Hoyt shoot in Quebec and the Running Bear in NBay and try to eliminate the conflicts. People have choices to make.

As for the issues about people attending if more door prizes were offered up........ I'm sure that whatever club is hosting the OAA championships (any given year) would love to have that ability. I'm not sure though that it is as easy as asking Jerry D to offer up a dozen bows  But..... I bet that any club would love to have the assistance of someone willing to take on the task of rounding up prizes.

The OAA exec has several members that have experience with events outside of Ontario, on an international level. I won't speak for others on the board, but I have attended numerous ASA and IBO events (as well as IFAA and NFAA) over the past several years. All of which have had attendance far greater than the OAA could ever dream of. I'm quite sure that all of us on the board are reflective of our experiences. 

The current OAA board has membership from what I would believe are archers whom represent all aspects of archery. Though, I know input from more would be welcome. As with any volunteer organization, it is typically those whom are willing to put up their hand who get the job. 

There are currently several positions on the OAA exec that are vacant....... would love to see them filled with new faces. I know the Zone Director position in your zone is available........

Again, just looking for fresh thoughts and ideas 

Cheers


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

The attendance may have been down due to rule change a few weeks prior to the event which did not go over so well either.

If you want to make things open up for new shooters then why not make anyone who is sponsored in any way shop, distributor or factory has to shoot open. then the up and comers may feel more competitive.

I also know that when I began shooting 3D there was bigger prizes more draw prizes at events and even money paid back at YCB and the cost of shooting was less. then as the clubs increased the price to shoot and started to make less of an effort than they made in the past and it showed! I know that this is not always the clubs fault due to the lack of volounteers at some clubs, but non the less they still choose to hold events that may not be so well planned out which will in the end leave people wondering why they go.

Look at Durham archers for example they quit holding more shoots and focused on one good one and the attendance at this shoot is well over 100 shooters at a local sunday shoot. They have one good draw prize usually a bow from there local dealer and you only have to be present to win it, Win win for everyone.

I go to alot of the northern Ontario shoots just for this reason they are well organized lots of effort put forth and there is usually something in return for your time and efforts as well a great day in the northern Ontario woods.

The OAA wanted to charge 70 dollars this year to shoot thank goodness flying feathers only charged 50 and they had a few draw prizes. but 70 dollars I think is enough to scare some people away from an event with the economy and gas prices the way they are. And at the end of the day if you shoot well after all your hard practice and you are lucky enough to place you get a medallion, and watch them pick only some lucky kids to go to the nationals paid for, which don't get me wrong is great but we have some awsome adult shooters in this province as well who would love the same oppourtunity.

I know this has been brought up before but we cannot have clubs that are 2 hrs or less from one another having shoots on the same weekend thats why the numbers are lower in my opinion. There should also never be a club allowed to advertise a shoot in the OAA directory on the same weekend as any provincial shoot of any kind ever.

I hope this helps.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*thanks*

Dennis thanks again Like I said I would like to attend as I am an advocate for the sport of archery...like yourself...


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Look at the last two posts Dennis we must have been writing at the same time. Common ground! yippy


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Bow bandit said:


> The attendance may have been down due to rule change a few weeks prior to the event which did not go over so well either.
> 
> That is purely opinion and unfortunately cannot be substaintiated for or against.
> 
> ...





CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Dennis thanks again Like I said I would like to attend as I am an advocate for the sport of archery...like yourself...


I believe you are  As for your question about speaking to an issue........ you can speak to any issue you wish at the AGM. If you wish to have an issue voted on, you need to present it to the OAA in the form of a written proposal prior to the AGM. I believe the submission date is 60 days prior to the AGM (I should know this, but I'll check to confirm).

Cheers


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

Grey Eagle said:


> The dot idea seems to be a point that most can agree on, what about the idea of two up shooting?


I'll reiterate my support of the dot, I think adding the dot and pulling the binos is a great idea. 2 up shooting is also a great idea - frankly, anything at all that could speed up the round is good by me. 

It's not that I don't like spending time at a venue shooting, but there's the rub - I like to be shooting. I don't know what the major events were like this year and frankly one of the reasons I don't know is because I absolutely hated the length of time it has taken to shoot 20 or 40 arrows over the last couple of years. 

Why is it that we can shoot a full round of field if FAR less time? (Rhetorical, I know the reasons, but anything we can do to lessen this time is a good thing).

I don't think it's at all realistic to think that a course is going to be set up for both marked and unmarked distance. That's just too much work on the volunteers. One nicely configured course, be it marked or unmarked, is great.

Dots, no binos.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*thanks again*

dennis thanks for the clarification on issues


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

So lets look at the things done to 3D lately to help improve attendance:

1. Remove the speed limit. 
- I'm for that. Supposedly to help out the guys that shoot IBO so they didn't have to run 2 differnet 3D rigs. It didn't seem to help the turnout.

2. Remove the 12's. 
- I'm undecided if I like that or not. It didn't have any impact on attendance this year. Did people not attend because of it???.

Any other recent changes I am missing?

I for one am against the dot and marked yardage. Maybe run 2 seperate ranges? One with the dot and marked and one normal range. I think that when 3D was through the roof 15 years ago we were living in a different era socially. Guys were working 40 hours a week. I noticed a correlation between the 50 and 60 hour workweek and our local 3D atendance. Now guys aren't working so much anymore attendance has creeped up. Do you think that 3D has just plain fell out of favour for now, only to pick up again in the future? If thats the case tweaking won't accomplish much. Bellbotoms were a fad in the 60's (so I've heard) but came back in the 90's for a time. Maybe 3D is like that... field was cool way back when and now its cooking again. Did they tweak the field rules to get better turnouts????


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## Baldini (Mar 7, 2005)

I think we are looking at 2 separate but related problems here. Attendance at 3D shoots in general and attendance at 3D "major events". For most of the participants at a 3D shoot, the day is about having fun, enjoying the pleasant company, and shooting some arrows. And if that happens on back to back days with a good meal in between, so much the better! (my thoughts with respect to the dinner may be biased) Rules dictating stabilizer length, X vs 12 and binocular magnification may be a little extreme for things like that. Maybe a rule that says you have to have fun would make more sense.

Marked yardage for those that want to look, would likely add to the fun for those that don't like judging and provide excellent feedback on yardage estimating for the more serious. 

I think that as long as the IBO continues to hold the World Championships in the eastern US, it makes sense to at least loosely align the "Championship Rules" with theirs. By loosely, I mean equipment definitions and yardages, because many of the top placing people at our championships are planning on representing us there.

I don't think we need to outlaw binoculars though. Many people have said that they don't like standing around waiting because there is a slow group in front of them. Even at a "major event" this can be an issue. I can think of at least one instance where myself or someone I have been shooting with timed the group in front of us with a watch when a calander probably would have been more appropriate. The target in front of them was vacant at the time. When this happened we were faced with a choice, there were judges on the course, we could have lodged an official complaint, or we could have muttered and griped amongst ourselves, ignored it and gone on with our lives and enjoyed the day. We didn't stir the pot.

I don't think anybody likes to wait for the group ahead at every target. Maybe instead of trying to "regulate" shooting times, we should try to "encourage" common courtesy. If a group, even at a "major event", sees that they are holding up the group behind them, they should offer to allow them to play through, regardless of timing issues. And if you want to try to regulate timing, have each group police itself for the 2-minute rule, but put a time limit on the entire round. A group that is consistantly slow would have to take the chance that they would miss the cut-off. I'm pretty sure after a few rounds of shooting a total of zero points, they'd learn.

Rules are something that tend to take the fun out of recreation. For most of us, this sport is about recreation and "friendly competition".


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

hoody123 said:


> I'll reiterate my support of the dot, I think adding the dot and pulling the binos is a great idea. 2 up shooting is also a great idea - frankly, anything at all that could speed up the round is good by me.
> 
> It's not that I don't like spending time at a venue shooting, but there's the rub - I like to be shooting. I don't know what the major events were like this year and frankly one of the reasons I don't know is because I absolutely hated the length of time it has taken to shoot 20 or 40 arrows over the last couple of years.
> 
> ...


Going to have to disagree...sorry.
I love glassing the target. I have seen things like twigs and such that I couldn't see before a peek through the bino's. I love 3D. I think a dot would just turn it into another form of field archery with a different butt to stop the arrow. What's the next step? unmarked field? We already have that.:mg: No spot to aim at is part of what I think best seperates 3D from the other forms.

I for one, spend far more time judging then glassing anyway...but that's just me.

Rangefinder class, bino's, and no to dots...


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## q2xlbowhunter (Dec 28, 2004)

cath8r said:


> So lets look at the things done to 3D lately to help improve attendance:
> 
> 1. Remove the speed limit.
> - I'm for that. Supposedly to help out the guys that shoot IBO so they didn't have to run 2 differnet 3D rigs. It didn't seem to help the turnout.
> ...




That's it exactly Rob, it is more the economy than anything else that is hurting 3d right now, also I know there is alot more 3d courses going around the province on any given weekend than the other types of archery and it is probably watering down the attendance a little, I would shoot a local course before I waste gas to drive 1-2 hrs to shoot a course that I know might be a little nicer but the facts are money is tight across the province and to totally revamp 3d right now is a mistake.

Chris.


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## btmckay (Dec 7, 2003)

I think Rob(Cath8r) hit the nail on the head. With everyone's spare
time limited and spare spending money limited the attendance will
be down. I know that the past weekend I had a choice of doing the 
OAA fields or the Running Bear, I chose the Running Bear because 
it's 1 1/2hr from me instead of 8hrs to the fields. 
Next year with the 3D provincials in the Sault I'm thinging long and
hard about going. Not to take away from the Sault but for me
it's 8hrs and an extra day off of work which for me is hard to get
a day here or there.
But what we have to ask ourselves is not how do you get fellow 
target archers into doing our discipline of archery but how do we
attract the thousands of bowhunters that are in Ontario now to 
come out to our events or better yet ask them whats keeping them
away for coming out. 
At the Running Bear this weekend there was probably 20-25 out of 100 
shooters that I would call tournament regulars. So what does this 
tournament do to attract people to this shoot. Food, prizes not a 
real difficult course??

Brian


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## bigbulljoe (Jul 2, 2005)

*proposed OAA 3D rule changes*

I believe in sharing ideas which may help a sport but some of the ideas mentioned here are not very well thought out.

One of the biggest things keeping new(er) Archers and bowhunters from 3D shoots is the relatively long distances that they have to shoot compared to the distances they usually practise/hunt at. It is no coincidence that the IBO's most popular division is the Hunter class which has a maximum distance of 35yards!!

A few years ago many of the archery clubs in Minnesota witnessed a decline in shooter numbers at their 3D shoots and slowly they began to incorporate the 35 yd Hunter class and numbers started to increase again. At virtually every club I have shot at or spoken with in MN the Hunter class has the highest shooter numbers. We incorporated it and it has also become our most popular division.

I believe that putting an orange dot on a life size 3-dimensional animal target set up in a natural setting very contradictory and I have yet to see a Moose, deer or bear in the wild sporting one of these dots. Again i think that this would actually turn off more people than it would attract.

I think that there is a good chance that the change in arrow speed rule will potentially attract more people to 3D as most hunters and rec shooters don't buy a 330 or 340 fps bow to have to worry about trying to make sure they can slow it down enough to be legal. Even for people whose bows would be legal as set-up there is still the concern for rules that often hinders people from coming out to a shoot. Similarly I think the recent IBO and FCA rule changes in the Hunter class allowing smaller vanes will increase participation as shooters can shoot what they have and not worry about more rules.

shooting 2 arrows per target would also increase the number of nocks, fletchngs and arrows which would be damaged or wrecked during a shoot - again not a big selling point to drawing people out to a shoot.

I would like to see an 11 ring rather than a 12 ring but that is only personal preference.

Overall I agree with the idea that 3D shoot directors from across the province would likely provide the best ideas for minor rule changes and/or ways in which to increase shooter turnout as they are the ones putting in the long hours and hear the feed back from shooters.

I do not believe that the answer to increasing the number of people shooting 3D is to take rules and aspects of other types of archery disciplines which have poorer shooter numbers than 3D and adapt them to 3D!! What sense does that make?

If you want to try and create an entirely new archery discipline blending rules from a number of archery events into one and give it an entirely new name - go ahead I would probably even give it a try, but lets not do it under the pretense of making 3D archery better and more popular.

We usually have about 1/3 of the targets at our first outdoor 3D of the year with marked yardage to help shooters get back into the swing of things and we often have a number of marked yardage targets at our big Hunter round shoot at the end of the summer as well - which simulates the small percentage of the time that a hunter gets to range an animal prior to shooting.

I would like to see some kind of scaling back of the rules which govern the bowhunter release divisions that would keep long stabilizers, back tension releases, fat arrows etc out of the division. If you want to shoot that kind of equipment then you should have to compete in the open class - based on alot of what I have heard this change would result in more shooters in that class.

Do not get me wrong I am open to ideas and changes which I think will improve the sport and/or shooter numbers, but the ideas will be put to a test of balances which takes into account past experience as well as shooter feedback and trends and rules which have been proven to work and ones which have not worked.

Joe


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## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

*Just a thought...*

Maybe 3D should have two divisions, one recreational and the other competitive. What ever the rules are for each division they would be universal across the country. Recreational (relaxed) rules could have the use of rangefinders, 12X, a choice of what peg to shoot from, whatever … less stress more fun (basically they would be shooting against their own abilities, hence themselves, and not very experienced competitive shooters). Competitive shooters could nationally follow IBO for example. That way a NEW shooter would not be victimized for not knowing a specialized host clubs rules (be this a local, regional or a national shoot). This doesn’t mean two range setups, just two sets of rules. As for recognition, medals etc for the competitive shooters and a great day for recreational ones (no scores recorded by the host club). Maybe this would bring out those bowhunters (mentioned above) who think that they are not good enough to compete. In time recreational shooters might make the jump to the competitive division if that is their thing. Regardless, they would be part of a tournament’s attendance driving up the numbers in this sport. I don’t know about making things easier for shooters attending a championship tournament designed for competitive archers. Aren’t these shoots there to find the best of the best? That would be like opening up the Olympic games to a very average archer who just wants to go.


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

*ttt*

TTT

just bringing this back to the top, it's really good.. don't want to miss anybody..


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2009)

my better judgement tels me to stay out of this but will give it a shot anyway

there is nothing wrong with the 3-D format as it is now, it is what the 3-Ders wanted ( i too think it is wise to bring back the 12 ring though). Rules chamges are just part of the growing curve, adding and deleating classes are common, tweaking this or that to match what is common practice also common, but a wholesale change not so much. 

Although a shoot like Redding is very popular once a year it still hasn't become a normal shoot shot commonly everywhere, we have tried it here with local short term suscess but in time fads. We added the Hunter class which in some states is great but here many don't even know what it is.

When we brought 3-D into the OAA many years ago ALL the rules and regs were decided by the 3-D archer at a special agm each year at the host sight and still couldn't come up with a set of rules that everyone liked, before the link with the FCA we had our own set of rules which for the most part fit within just about any other orgs classes with few differences, the speed limit being the crying point for many that to was changed and resulted in just another slew of excuses why they didn't show, we could mimic the IBO directly and doubt very much if we would see any real rise in attendance simply because "joe bowhunter" has already left the scene long ago.

Adding another Championship (marked 3-D) is great and all but whos going to do it and what time of year, we already are flooded with conflicting tournaments, I don't see a rangfinderclass doing well because intermixing them with other classes on the same field could be problematic, maybe half and half, ie first day marked or rangefinders welcome for everyone then full unmarked on day 2, or just leave it alone.

would any of this bring me back to shooting 3-D on a regular basis most likely not because even if it was marked and dotted and great prizes good food etc, taking 5-8hrs to shoot 40 arrows just isn't fun for me, just like shooting 112 arrows in 2-4hrs might not be fun for a core 3-D archer.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Why not allign with the IBO for scoring rings as well? Wouldn't an 11 bridge the gap between an X and a 12? It would also help archers in the OAA asses their skill level against IBO scores accurately and quickly. 

I would hate to see some of the useless IBO classes though like AHC (Advanced Hunter Class) and the MBR (I think the one where they shoot long stabs and 5 pin sights). I think that these and other classes water down the main classes and just serve to satisfy those that want a 1st place buckle cause they can't cut it in a legit class. 
Keep HC for the hunters, MBO, Pro, Fingers, Trad and the kids stuff and senior stuff and ladies stuff.
Oh yeah, did I say what a joke I think AHC is? Its what 2.5 yards farther than Hunter Class. give me a break...


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## Moosetalker (Oct 19, 2008)

Hello Fellow Archers:

I am not a regular poster on AT but I do enjoy going on line quite frequently to just keep informed with the archery world and in particular the Canadian forum site. I love the ability to see what my fellow archery buffs are up to, what they have accomplished in their competitions and how they made out during the fall hunts. I have competed in mainly 3 D tournaments with an occasional trip to the indoor Fita events and have been an OAA member for about 8 years. I have accompanied many archers who are on AT quite often to many tournaments over the years and travelled to the US to some IBO and ASA events. When I read this thread regarding some discussion on major changes that are being proposed to "shake up " the 3D shooting here in Ontario I felt I had to put in my 2 cents and voice my opinion on some of your proposals. One thing that I want to make crystal clear is the fact that I am 100% behind any suggestion that will ultimately increase the shooter numbers in our sport and help get the young shooters involved especially. 

I believe it is a well noticed fact that in some areas of the province the attendance at 3 D shoots is getting lower and the number of shoots being offered by Archery clubs is getting lower. My area is one of those. I live in the Midland area and the closest 3 D shoot to me now is 1 1/2 hours away. Just 3 or so years ago I was able to attend at least 6 shoots a year that were inside an hours drive from my house. For the past 2 years a 3 hour drive is now becoming the norm. My own archery club here in Penetang has not held a shoot for the past 3 years simply because of a lack of attendance. It is great to see that other archers are noticing this marked decline in clubs willing to hold events and the number of shooters that they are getting. Something needs to be done to help bring the shoots back and maybe this discussion on this thread will generate some good ideas. I am a little concerned with some of the suggestions that are being made to change the 3 D format and possibly take away from the sport that I love to participate in.

My attraction to 3 D shooting is that it provides a large variety of skills to perform the sport well and closely for the most part duplicates my hunting arena. The act of walking through bush, forests, fields, swamp land both level and rugged, finding a footing position that is comfortable to shoot from, selecting an arrow path clear of branches, weeds, leaves etc. from a pre selected shooting stake that you have to at least be touching somehow, accurately judging the distance to the foam 3 dimensional target that looks very much like some prey that I may choose to hunt some day, glassing the target with the optional use of binoculars to select the exact spot on the target that will render my arrow the most points for the shot and then drawing the bow while keeping your eye on that spot regardless of sun, shade, wind etc. and then making a clean archery shot. That is what 3D archery is all about to me and I simply love every skill involved with it. Challenging??? absolutely and very fun. 

For those of us that have run shooting events for the OAA and gone and purchased medals and trophies for the shooters or for those of us that have stuck around for the awards presentations at the end of shoots, it is quite obvious that there is a huge selection of categories for the shooter to choose from based on their age and equipment that they choose to use. It is also a well known fact that no matter what shooting sport you get involved with as you upgrade your equipment quality to a higher level of precision and learn to use it with skill, your level of performance will increase and with good practice sessions you can become better at what you do. It does not really matter whether that piece of equipment is coloured differently or is shiny as long as it works well, is in tune and is used with skill. One problem that I find that occurs among us archers is the detrimental conversations that occur between participants because of various equipment choices and form of archery that they choose to do. This is what leads to a decline in shooter participation and is bad for any shooting sport in my opinion. All shooters need to get along with each other and respect the other shooters no matter what their facet of shooting is or the equipment they choose to use. Friendly bantering is always good fun but sarcasm that belittles and discourages shooters is not. I happen to be involved in the bowhunter unlimited category and yes at competitions I shoot a target coloured bow ( I find they look like works of art ), use a trigger finger release, a drop away rest, a 5 fixed pin sight, stuck with an 11" stab but shoot those fat glue in point arrows. I chose to do this because the rules and regulations allow me to. When we hear talk about restricting this category and throwing them into the open class I think we are forgetting that just a couple of years ago we created the Hunter Class. This category was specifically designed to encourage those shooters that had basic hunter rig set ups and were possibly new archers. We made their max. distance 35 yards to encourage success to help closely duplicate a hunting scenario for them. I feel this was a great move as it removes for the most part those fancy, shiny shooting machines that some of the newer archers may be intimidated by, but remember they are only colourful and shiny, not magic shooting machines that shoot by themselves. Sorry for the long winded intro but I will now get on with what the thread started wanted, and that is everyone's opinion on some of the new proposals for the OAA 3D Championships and how to increase shooter numbers at these 3 D events. What shooters need to keep in mind as well is that these rules are only going to be able to be enforced at OAA sanctioned events. When clubs choose to hold their own shoots they can choose to use whatever rules they want or don't want as some clubs do already.

Unmarked to marked yardage: I personally do not want to see this skill removed from the 3D archery event. The art and skill of accurately judging the distance to the target is just as important to the point of arrow impact as making a clean archery shot. Yes, most bowhunters now carry range finders with them anyways which is a good thing from an ethical standpoint but on the 3D course the distance judging is what makes this facet of archery so unique. We already have some clubs hosting Marked events which I attend and yes the attendance seems good at them but is it a much higher attendance than if it is unmarked, I'm not so sure about that. We can continue to have the marked events which if any newer shooters choose to attend they can get a feel of what the targets look like a various ranges and start to practice judging in the heads as they go along in preparation for the next shoot which will be unmarked. Every other facet of archery I believe is shooting an arrow at a target that you know the distance to. Why do we want to eliminate a unique form of archery that has been in place for years simply because we may be getting desperate to find an attendance solution when there are so many other possible reasons for the decline.

70 yard Max. distance: I surely hope that as somebody said this was just a throw in. 3 D archery for all intent purposes is to duplicate hunting scenarios with the use of foam targets. Promoting 70 yard shots on game is in my opinion not a great idea. I know that your just trying to encourage some of the shooters that are used to shooting those distances over to the 3 D side and to make it more interesting for them but why do this to a sport when it is not necessary. Those shooters still have Field Archery and Fita in which they can perform those kinds of shots. Don't get me wrong here, it is a blast shooting an arrow at 70 80 or even 100 yards at a target, I love it, but I feel it is best kept as a novelty shoot or use it as a fund raiser shoot at a 3 D event and charge those that want to try it and split the money 50/50 style between the winning shooter and the club. Another point is that shooters that are shooting lower arrow speeds will need considerably more height clearance to the target in order to achieve that 70 yard mark and some courses do not have open fields to place those long shots in. To go along with that those same shooters will simply not be able to accommodate a 70 yard pin on there fixed sights and may be forced to go to a moveable sight which will put them into an unwanted category.

Shoot 2 arrows per target: I am either way on this one. I really don't see the need to shoot 2 arrows at the same target at the same distance but if it will increase participation from other shooters why not. I mean there are times when I make a bad shot on a particular target and I feel that I want to shoot it again to just take it out on it HaHa!!! The only draw back that I can foresee with this is that clubs are soon going to find that holding a shoot is going to be a lot harder on their already expensive foam targets and may choose to hold only one shoot instead of two or three as some clubs do now. Just a thought.

2 people shoot at one time: The problem I have with this one is the fact that when a 3D course is set up it is made to achieve some similar shots that you may have in a hunting situation and that is what I love about it. The course setter will ask the shooter to maybe shoot between 2 trees, or maybe through the crotch of a tree and then just over a log before the target. This may be hard to achieve with having 2 shooters side by side at the same time. Again it will detract from the already interesting and unique features of a 3D shoot. If it puts more demands on clubs that are setting up shoots I hope they don't quit having them. 

Orange dot on 11 or 12 Ring: I am willing to try this one if it will generate more shooters but again time will tell I guess. It does eliminate one of the skills as I mentioned before that is part of the "traditional 3 D shoot", but it does have merit as far as speeding up shooting time due to the fact of not having to glass the target. What solution is there to keeping the orange or whatever marker on the target in the right location for the duration of the shoot so that it is fair for everybody?. I do enjoy the act of glassing the target and keeping my eye on the spot in order to get the most points but I would be willing to try this suggestion for a season and see if it helps the shooter numbers. Oh this reminds me regarding the dot placement. It should be placed in the 12 Ring!!! When we lost the 12 to an 11 and then to an X this in my opinion was a huge slap in the face to those archers that can quite frequently hit that small ring due to their skill level. I know all about the FCA stuff but really, any archer knows that at targets especially that are set out past the 40 yard mark or those little ones that have a inner ring the size of your small finger nail if you can hit those marks give the shooter there just reward and give the extra 2 points and say NICE SHOT to them!!! I surely hope the OAA re-examines this rule as I heard somebody has already submitted this for this years AGM. Just my opinion.

Range Finder Permitted: This kind of falls into the same suggestion above and that is marked yardage. You know my thoughts on it already but as one or more people have suggested you could try the option of rangefinder use as a category and see if helps attendance. The only problem is that it has to be for all classes and age groups and leads itself to double the medal or trophies for the hosting club. This would definitely be a turn off in that respect. Hey I got an idea, lets just practice our distance judging once in awhile and use that skill when we know were going to a 3D shoot or if your out hunting and within a split second a deer or moose is standing in front of you and you have not unpacked your range finder yet. Just a thought.

Sorry for being long winded but I was just trying to satisfy what this thread starter was asking for and that is my opinion on his proposed changes to the 3D circuit. I know quite a few of you shooters out there and I see the passion that each and everyone of you has for shooting your bows no matter what category or age you are. I am glad to see that we have the chance to work together to possibly come up with some constructive suggestions that will help our declining shooter numbers in some locations. I personally don't care what the shooter standing beside me is shooting or what colour his or her bow is, but I do love to try and place my arrow just a little closer to the 12 ring than yours is. HaHaHa!!!! Keep shooting folks and remember try to get those young archers out to our shoots and tell them to bring a friend along.


Moosetalker

Hoyt bows Pro Staff
Easton arrows Pro Staff
Knight & Hale Game Calls Pro Staff


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

cath8r said:


> Why not allign with the IBO for scoring rings as well? Wouldn't an 11 bridge the gap between an X and a 12? It would also help archers in the OAA asses their skill level against IBO scores accurately and quickly.
> 
> I would hate to see some of the useless IBO classes though like AHC (Advanced Hunter Class) and the MBR (I think the one where they shoot long stabs and 5 pin sights). I think that these and other classes water down the main classes and just serve to satisfy those that want a 1st place buckle cause they can't cut it in a legit class.
> Keep HC for the hunters, MBO, Pro, Fingers, Trad and the kids stuff and senior stuff and ladies stuff.
> Oh yeah, did I say what a joke I think AHC is? Its what 2.5 yards farther than Hunter Class. give me a break...


We had the 11 ring up untill the middle of the year this year then the rule was changed, believe me not a popular change and most of the archers at the 3D range would like to have the 12 back its just something we got used to. Trust me when you are used to shooting for it and getting those extra points she can be awful boring hitting it and just scoring ten, it is a good reward for your effort.

You are right about extra classes up here, those other classes like AHC work in the IBO due to the large amount of archers they have. we don't need that up here we just need the archers who are dominating the sport right now to move up. its not that hard to police if you show up to a shoot sporting any sort of team shop or prostaff at any level you must have some shooting ability...The shirts are easy to pick out in a crowd and if someone chooses not to wear the shirt to avoid the move up so be it, it will be there shame.
if you start filling a class full of the top archers and the payouts are cash you might gain more interest from the up and comers...

I think that you could find some grey area with the speed issues that have been brought up lower the speed to 305 fps max I believe that this speed is reachable for most anyone shooting todays hunting rigs...yes Chris you can too reach 300 fps I know it! then you will not have the guys with the really long draws having to detune drastically and the short draw archers possibly shooting dangerous poundage and arrow spines to keep up... this should be fair for everyone and keeps up with the technology.

The last thing I think that will help for sure is to run less thrown to together in a few days shoots and get back to some good quality shoots like we had years ago such as pioneer and the YCB classic. There are some major achery distributors in the hub of southern Ontario... We all know them and they may be willing to help out with a well planned event...


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

Sean McKenty said:


> my better judgement tels me to stay out of this but will give it a shot anyway
> 
> there is nothing wrong with the 3-D format as it is now, it is what the 3-Ders wanted ( i too think it is wise to bring back the 12 ring though). Rules chamges are just part of the growing curve, adding and deleating classes are common, tweaking this or that to match what is common practice also common, but a wholesale change not so much.
> 
> ...


:thumb:


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## Xslayer (Feb 10, 2003)

*Just my 2 cents worth.*

The issues they had in the US when 3D was dying off was very similar to the one we are having now.

Yes the sport was started to simulate hunting in the off season, but it has developed and grown and changed.

A number of years ago at the major indoor events (Vegas, Louisville and Pittsburgh at that time...) the NFAA introduced the marked distance 3D, the goal was to increase attendance and make it appealing to a broader spectrum of archers at all levels of skill.

I spoke to one of the organizers and he told me it was the guessing the distance and loosing arrows that kept most people (family's) away from the events until they became marked distances, as soon as that was adopted the attendance went through the roof.

As in any sport there are those who want to really compete hard against each other and those who want to simply attend as a family or to have fun.

This I believe is a great way to get more people back into the sport while at the same time (by using the small dots) keeping it competitive. For now to regrow the sport maybe adopting this for awhile would attract more people and that is really the bottom line of the whole thing.

If not a fully marked 3D I agree with Sean that a range finder class would be a better bet and still keep the TRUE 3D core happy at the same time.

I remember the days when 200 people showed up to shoot a local 3D, now those days are long gone, now it is 40 or 50 at shoots if it is a good day,, I am not saying this would cure all the attendance issues and everything else that has been addressed here but maybe it is worth a try to get more people involved again.

Obviously there is a great deal of passion about 3D and everyone has strong points,, that is great,, but what is the best thing to do to regrow the sport, if we look at that and everyone bend just a little perhaps this could work really well for now.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Ontario is a BIG place and to get everyone to one venue to hold a championship is going to be impossible. Isn't this the reason that the indoors are held regionally? Didn't doing this help save indoors? 
Unfortunately the nature of 3D is that everyone has to shoot the same course, so regional shoots are out of the question. Sad to say but there is no magic bullet here. 
Change the basics of 3D and your going to chase away the die-hards that love 3D for all it is. Unmarked and tricky. Do what you will with the scoring. Just decide then leave it alone. Offer a marked class for those that don't shoot 3D often enough. If you go with the 'dot' I hope that is on its own seperate range. There really isn't any magic bullet.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

*I'm impressed....*

Lots of civil discussion going on here :thumb: I really appreciate the thought and time most of you have put into your honest responses. It also strikes me that even the most ardent 3D'r amongst us, whom sees not real ill with the present game, is willing to bend from their own beliefs if it would benefit the whole.

I've put up two threads in the General Discussion and Bowhunting Forums, to see what kind of responses would come........

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=987331

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=987326


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## Xslayer (Feb 10, 2003)

Grey Eagle said:


> Lots of civil discussion going on here :thumb:
> 
> Nice to see everyone knows what DISCUSS means.:thumbs_up


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

One of the things I had the hardest time with when I started 3D (and it was not that long ago...) was loosing arrows. 

It get's really expensive, really quick. It also sucks the fun out of it when you know you are goiong to loose $10 - $30 in arrows each time you go out (even if you are having fun). ...or being stressed 'cause you are down to your last arrow.

Now that I have shot a bit (and hope I don't loose arrows each round...) I can say I really don't like the look of backstops at the range. It looks so much nicer and natural without them....but.....it makes a huge difference to the shooter starting off if he can grab his arrow intead of having to search for it (or not find it at all) each time he misses. (...Thanks to the North Bay Bowhunters for the back stop on that little rock critter under the pine tree...)

I'm not big on on most of the suggested "improvments". I don't think it's broke, so don't fix it....but that does not seem to be the concensus. I think that there are far bigger things going on right now that is affecting the numbers at the shoots. The economy being a big one. The fact that people are busy with a ton of other things in their life. Sometimes driving the 2 to 3 hours is not in the cards for them...time wise or $$$ wise.


I Like Moosetalker suggestion of getting the kids out to the shoots. do that and the parents will follow.....or their friend will try it..... 


Good discssion lads. Let's see where this takes us!


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

I'll throw you guys a bone to chew on. what is the biggest detractor from target archers and non-every day 3-d shooters....? It is the unknown yardage and lack of guessing it proficiently so as not to waste arrow money. what if you took and made a sign (for every target) that said this target is between ex. 43 and 50 yards. The stake would have to be set within that range. (different range for each target set of course). The true 3-ders would still have the yardage practice advantage but the other shooters would feel just a little more at ease guessing with in a 7 yards range. I think you would save time on the range still be able to experience the true 3-d effect for the die hard 3-d shooters.????? Ken


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*length of time*

dods and no binos I think ARE NOT THE ANSWER this weekend at north bay we started at 8 am shot gun start 100 shooters and we where all in by 11:30 or so a couple of teams where a bit slower but did the courteous thing of letting others play through... we shot 30 targets as well we where on the road by 1:30 back home that was after speeches, thank yous awards and 100 people getting door prizes by name drawing... and having a great lunch.. Fred and the boys and ladies have it down to a science and it works binos where allowed no marked distance and no orange dots and everybody happy and already talking about next years shoot... Clubs them selves are there own worst enemies having a 40 target shoot with only 20 targets and 140 shooters do the math 4 per target = 80 on course 60 sitting idle.. and miles between each target.. shooting lanes so poorly cleaned that getting to and from targets time consuming and dangerous... poorly marked routes to the next target cardboard arrows and bring your bows with you signs make life easy.. Remember I`m not a member of your club so I don`t know where I`m going next.. Also some clubs repair their targets .great shows they are resourceful but please heat up a nail and define your vitals and if you have x or 12 rings make sure they are defined... and also a recore does not always have the vitals where they used to be, I`m old and need binos for 10 seconds or so to get my bearings... Lets be honest here how many times have you stood around while they have tried to get the list of winners together using a frigging book that is so mismatched with categories that the registration people are having trouble computing it... put the names up on a board 4by 8 sheet of plywood with categories listed and permanently painted on it so all can see and say hey you got me in the wrong class.. again Northbay does this excellently... I mention these things in saying that is sometimes why numbers are down I`ve waited till 8 oclock at night for awards at a 125 shooter tourny.. my THOUGHTS NOT COMING BACK HERE.. a bit of organization and bingo its done ...Hey lets have a tournament seminar ,... called get her done... I would more than be glad to help organize or run such an event and this would be open to all clubs who want to attend .. at their expense and we will create a tourny package and will supply generic score cards readable and registration sheets and a small binder to help the newbies out there then the organization would and could be on the same plane... what do you think club execs good or bad idea... we could break binder down to indoor shoots and outdoor shoots I use North bay as an example here only because they where the most resent tourny I attended... there are a lot of clubs that I visited this summer and had excellent times so please none of you take anything I say personally I know it it is a volunteer base to make the clubs exist.. thanks for listening...


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

One thing that Classic Hunter touched on is Volounteer support. Thats the death of clubs. The volounteers quit volounteering and the club goes down. We've all seen it where 2-5 guys do all the work and eventually they quit. They get barely a nod of appreciation if all goes well and often if there is something wrong they get all the blame. Clubs need more participation in the setting up and taking down if 3D is to thrive. 3D is maybe the most labour intensive from shoot to shoot. Fieled may be at the start of the season due to butt building/maintainance.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

I agree with the none competitive class, with marked yardage. We could range the course before the shoot, print the yardages and they can be handed out to those in that class as they sign up.

WE can put the twelves back in at any time. 

GGG:shade:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*area attendance numbers*

I just got a call from Cheryl Richards of the Picton club... She reminded me that at the series of the seaway challenge all but 2 tournaments had 140 shooters respectively... and it rained on 5 legs of the tournaments if memory serves me and one of the tournaments was on mothers day... these are pretty good numbers for sure and this was from Durham to Grenville on the seaway.we drove 4 hours .... So as she put it, changes don`t need to be made as much as clubs have to put the effort into it.. Cheryl asked me to post this as they are her thoughts and does not have an account to post which is a good thing she says... lol lol thanks Cheryl


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## Xslayer (Feb 10, 2003)

GenesisAlpha said:


> I agree with the none competitive class, with marked yardage. We could range the course before the shoot, print the yardages and they can be handed out to those in that class as they sign up.
> 
> WE can put the twelves back in at any time.
> 
> GGG:shade:


NICE! :thumbs_up Offering A Range class or Non Competitive Class opens doors to allot of shooters who otherwise would not bother.

And it does not affect the true 3D"ers"


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## Wiz w/a Sceptre (Nov 27, 2007)

Like I said in the general forum

Participating in pushing 20-30 arrows in 4-5 hours - not likely when you have to guess the distance

Participating in pushing 40 arrows in 4-5 hours if it is marked or a rangefinder class - more probable, but only at a major (OAA championship) which is once a year. Takes the luck out of it. Sorry I have no time in my life to guess yardage.

don't care if there is a dot or not

likelyhood of me assisting the club setup the course so that everyone else can shoot - priceless, not going to happen, I have done my stint, and if you want the real truth you can PM me.


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## trapper1 (Nov 9, 2004)

Listen, I ran the Timmins Bowhunters for years and ran the tournaments as well, you want a hard time getting shooters, try running a shoot in northern Ontario. The last shoot I ran there had 99 shooters, were they locals, no...These were shooters from across the province, how did we do it? it wasn't because we put an ad in the OAA directory and expected everyone to show up as is the case with 99% of the clubs here in Ontario, I sent invites to every club in Ontario that we had addresses for, back then stamps would run us about $100 so figure out how many would be sent from that. We also sent personal invites the next year to everyone that attended as a reminder to come out and support the Timmins Bowhunters, ran tv ads, ads in the paper and on the radio as well. 

We didn't adhere to the OAA rules and this brought in more of the real hunters out there, coming out for good practise and fun. The OAA has too many classes now that most clubs can't afford to run a shoot and supply trophies for each category. New comers to the sport are immediately turned off because they're expected to shoot 50 yds, when the reality of the situation is they would never take that shot hunting and 30 yds is their personal effective range...of course they leave and don't come back. Does the 12 ring or binoculars play a factor here, no. Does the new 70 yd max, play a factor? yes.

I shoot these tournaments for the sheer joy of it, seeing old friends and most importantly *hunting* practise. I don't stay around to pick up trophies, that's not me, and not why I'm there. There are far too many hunters out there that don't even know these shoots are going on right in their back yards and would probably attend.....once. 70 yards would mean it would also be their last.

Hopefully this 70 yard rule does not come into effect, I know of certain high ranking individuals in the open and unlimited class that have left these yardages and accuracy go to their head and have brought those shots to the hunting field....shamefull. This is beyond ethical and by extending these yardages it will just coax more unfortunately to try the same.

I've been in the sport of bowhunting and 3D for 32 years and have seen perhaps too much, if the 70 yard rule comes in to effect I suppose it will be time to say good bye, there would be no more meaningfull practise for me there. 

Rick


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## Erich E (Mar 11, 2008)

I've been reading this thread for an hour now and it seems quite involved in changing things that most people don't seem to care about too much. I was at Lampton/kent this weekend and had a blast. I couldn't shoot past fifty yards and I did lose five arrows. So did my buddy. So what is the problem?

You are really concerned with shooting straight, fast and always hitting a target. What about the Recurve shooters and the Trads and Barebow people?
I was partnered with a really nice group of people that could shoot very well.
The company was funny, we all made snide remarks when things didn't go right and ada boy when everything came together. A really great bunch. These shooters regularly hit the 70 and 80 yard targets. Me, not much after 50. Got a few comments on how we could shoot without sights and hit targets and this from the Olympic recurve shooters.

You are so concerned with getting people involved that you over look up and coming classes. No wheels. We get more questions about our set ups and how we shoot that we set up shooting clinics for them to come out and try shooting recurve or longbow. We have turned a few wheelie bow shooters to trad and they never looked back.

Up here in the Soo, Trads are about 1/3 of all the shooters in the area. Who comes to the local shoots in the area other than OAA. Over half of the participants are traditional shooters. Our club is starting to get more and more guys into longbows and recurves because they see us as having fun and coming off a course with smiles instead of frowns.

Setting longer shots would not work here, We don't have the room. Our max shots are at 48 yards. Trads still have the max at 30 yards. 

If you are feeling a little let down because you can't score a 12 every time you shoot. Relax, take the speed away ( stick bows will reach 245 fps), remove the sights and start shooting where your eye/hand co-ordination plays a larger roll than a scope and site. The distances are closer too.

Just a rant from a stick and string guy. It's not a bad thing...............

Erich


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*I agree*

Trapper ! I agree its up to the clubs to get the people out there news letter mailing list flyers spread out at tournaments attended 3-4 months before yours and lets all have fun rick and I have a great time in the bush shooting that darn running bear on the cable.. at a buck a shot... as I stated in my post the clubs are sometimes their own worst enemy... just came back from the worlds today drove 7 1/2 hours to go shoot this tournament but well over a thousand shooters from all over... whats the saying... build it and they will come... let the rules we have now stay and energies should be into getting people out... I think the clubs have to make the effort... and also leave 3-d in the hands of the 3-d shooters>>>>>>>>


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## coptor doctor (Aug 25, 2003)

*3d*

Well I said as I read this that I would not respond but Andy's reply was great thanks Andy.
We in the Ottawa Area had to deal with the fita folks trying to change the Venue to better suit their shooting styles. 
Ottawa Sportsman show being the case. The shoot off always came down to an orange dot.. Which I always thought was BS. You shot good enough to get into a shoot off shooting at hard to see rings. you should be good enough to win shooting the same.
It use to make us laugh at some who would pace down to the target they first shot make notes at what they shot it for and then look down the line and make more notes on the targets at the same distance. 
It really did not matter after that they could have shot at a paper target. They knew the range anyhow. Why put out 3D animals save the club some money.
The really neat thing is the one guy that did it lots still never won.. Cracks me up.. Any how if I wanted to shoot at dots I would shoot fita. 3D to me is a walk in the woods ( sometimes with great guys sometimes not) Shooting at unmarked yardages. Done deal for me. One of matty's Idea's that I don't have a problem with is two guys or gals shooting at a time we had that for years at the IBO indoor worlds works great cuts down on the times to shoot big time.. Good one matty.. The rest not so warm and fuzzy to me.
This year the Hoyt shoot conflicted with the OAA champs for once it was not the OAA's fault. Hopefully it won't happen next year. As far as Numbers down at 3D not so in our area even better in Quebec. The hoyt shoot had over 600 rounds shot. One day attendance around 300. Pretty good showing. The Organizers did a Great job with everything except the camping was a mess. It was almost closer for me to stay at home.. LOL and not $100 for a tent site in the middle of retirement centrel. LOL You would have fit in Great Ted if you had a Golf cart in the majic bus..Any how My two cents for what it is worth.. Thanks again matty for starting and the others for bringing up some good and not so good idea's.. Cheers to Nigel hope your doing well..:darkbeer:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Attn coptor doctor*

Did you not see the big trailer hitch I put on the magic bus for my new battery chair with mudders on it... lol lol .. Don`t worry guys I`m working on a new me as we speak... have too , shot like sh-t in the ibo worlds and I know its a health and stamina thing... MY OWN FAULT... GOOD RESPONSE CARL... HOW TRUE .....


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