# Suprise release?



## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

I shoot just like you and usually outshoot most people that try to do it the other way. I haven't even considered trying it any other way but with a gun I do shoot surprised


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

I hear ya, I have been hunting and shooting a long time, but mostly it's just hunting now I don't shoot alot of 3d anymore. I used to just hold my pin and hammer my release but once I learned to let my pin float and focus on my target I got alot more consistant. But there is always room for improvement. I've played with hinge releases and can use them but never committed to them enough to see what benifits it would bring. They are not really practical for hunting IMO. And I can blind bale and set my wrist strap off with back tension with no issues at all. But when I'm shooting I get impatient and usually end up helping it along when I'm just ready to shoot. It's just troubling that when I do suprise myself with the release that my poi changes so much, so it makes me think that when I shoot my way I must be dropping out if the shot at the last second.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I've always questioned the term "surprise release". To me a better term would be "unanticipated release".

If your shooting high when you don't know when the release is going off, there is a chance that on a regular shot, you are anticipating the explosion and dropping 5". With a true surprise or unanticipated release, you should be hitting exactly where your pin was at the instant of release. Maybe try an experiment with a shooting stick. Let the stick support your bow hand and shoot a normal shot. The stick will keep you from dropping your hand in anticipation of the explosion. If you are 5" high with the stick preventing dropping in anticipation, you have discovered something important about your shot.

Allen


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Unanticipated release is a great way to put it. I'm stealing that one.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I like the unanticipated release term too. I shoot a hinge exclusively and it's not with a completely surprised release. I know the window when it normally goes off. If it doesn't go off in that window I will try to force myself to let down and start over. To me it sounds like you are doing alright. Just focus on the spot your aiming at and let your float be there. Just start your shot process and let it go as long as all the variables don't get too out of whack.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhutso said:


> When I truly try to shoot bt with my index finger release or any other release and that true suprise release happens its like somebody hit the panic button and my arrows fly about 5 inches high or higher. Same thing if I do the trick were you have a buddy set your release off for you. Now you hear all the time that this is how you are always suppose to shoot but..,,how in the world do you suprise yourself every time? You eventually learn the release and method you are shooting so that you can't not know its about to go off. At least that is my experience.
> 
> I just toy around with it trying to make myself better and more consistent. I
> Very effective "command shooting" when I'm hunting. Basically I just stare at my target and squeeze my finger, I know when it is gonna go off and it usually goes pretty close to where I want it.
> ...


You missing 5" has me confused. It's like you're anticipating the shot.

Back tension....I don't believe people really know what back tension is until they've learned it with a hinge type release. Hey, it's hard! Learning back tension and with a hinge is well noted for taking weeks, even months to learn. People try back tension with a index or a thumb release seem to say they have it down pat the first time or first day they try it. It just plain doesn't happen, at least not with a hinge type release.

What's going on? My opinion; Triggers and the human body... You come to full draw, you tense and when you tense the release hand tenses - ie, fingers and thumb clinch, release fires.

Can reasonable likeness of back tension be had? Yes. Able to feel the trigger with the index finger or thumb and forgetting it. You aim and you aim while engaging back tension (slowly, very slowly) and you keep aiming until the shot happens. If the shot doesn't happen or you catch yourself, like flinching, let down. Rest 15 seconds or so and start again. You practice this until the shot is second nature. Yes, no target to aim it is said best. How long? Said, I believe, is 21 days to ingrain it in your brain. And then practicing such should be part of your shooting... Just me and my two cents....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Yep... I like unanticipated release as well. Good job aread.

To the OP, if a surprise release is producing a substantially different POI from a "non-surprise" release and the pin is there and otherwise feels "normal".... I would take it as a sign that your "normal" is actually to drop your arm (or some other form breakdown).


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## TCR1 (Dec 22, 2004)

I agree with most of that except some people manipulate a hinge with their hand to cause it to fire and not use BT. I still struggle with my hinge after a few years of shooting it. Nice thing is, is that if things start getting crazy before the shot, I know something in my set up was wrong. 

As far as hitting 5 " high, it almost sounds like you are heeling the bow which MAY mean you are trying to just pull the bow apart. Forcing the bow hand forward and pulling the release hand backward isn't exactly how BT works. I really like Larry Wise's book for understanding the actual mechanics of the release. Draw length is pretty critical for getting good activation using the back too. Too short and you can't get the scapula in position, too long and you already blow through the required range of motion.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

Some great advise and comments here, I will be trying the shooting stick suggestion for sure, to clarify what I mean by "back tension" I can stand 3 feet from the target, hook my finger and squeeze my back muscles to make the release fire. I can feel the. Tension build in my finger and at some point it goes off, I'm not faking it or helping it along and I don't truly know when it will fire, now stepping back to 15-20 yards this is much harder to do. It takes the disipline to wait for it and I find most of the time I end up helping it along. But when I do stay disiplined and pull the shot off with the unanticipated release (great term) even at 15 yards I am always high. 
I am really interested to see what happens with a shooting stick now a d that should tell me what I need to know
All the replys are much appreciated 
Thanks to all


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Yep... I like unanticipated release as well. Good job aread.
> 
> To the OP, if a surprise release is producing a substantially different POI from a "non-surprise" release and the pin is there and otherwise feels "normal".... I would take it as a sign that your "normal" is actually to drop your arm (or some other form breakdown).




this /\ 

If you aim steady and have someone else pull the trigger on your release and hit different you are def. breaking down in your form. you are 100% anticipating the shot and either grabbing the grip because your brain has connected your trigger finger to your bow hand or you are shooting drive by style and have sighted your bow in this way.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

I had a similar thing when I first started to use a finger sling. Never had used one then did for a week. Now I have to or the bow goes flying out of my hand. 

That tells me I was always grabbing the bow on the shot even though I would have sworn up and down I wasn't.

We have to be honest with ourselves if we want to improve.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

here is a simple way to keep the surprise in your shot it works pretty nice, all you do is you get another release that's identical to the other... you keep both in the bag you DON'T look at it you just choose one then hook up and shoot the thing. the trick is you keep one hotter that the other.this will also help you not to anticipate the shot .mike


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## TCR1 (Dec 22, 2004)

When I was really trying to get better, I spent a considerable amount of time just blind bailing to learn the release and shooting very short games on regular face targets. Most of my shooting was done at 10 yards (those were more seldom) or less (those were frequent). You start helping the shot along because the mental picture of everything lined up wants you to get the arrow there like yesterday. You just have to keep aiming and realizing that if the shot isn't breaking, it's time to let down and start the whole shot process again.

Your description of the difference between 3 yards and 15-20 yards lines up with that.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

erdman41 said:


> I had a similar thing when I first started to use a finger sling. Never had used one then did for a week. Now I have to or the bow goes flying out of my hand.
> 
> That tells me I was always grabbing the bow on the shot even though I would have sworn up and down I wasn't.
> 
> We have to be honest with ourselves if we want to improve.


Since the first time I tried having a friend set off my release I have suspected that I grab the bow, I do shoot pretty well this way so it is nice to hear some advise, as you said I do want to be better and I'm trying to be honest with myself.
Thanks again to everyone for the answers


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

bhutso said:


> Since the first time I tried having a friend set off my release I have suspected that I grab the bow, I do shoot pretty well this way so it is nice to hear some advise, as you said I do want to be better and I'm trying to be honest with myself.
> Thanks again to everyone for the answers


I shot OK that way as well shooting around a 55x count on a blue face. But it is just one more variable to get rid of and don't have to worry about. A relaxed mind shoots better. So get a cheap finger sling or make your own out of a pair of shoe laces.

As for a "surprise" release I too like the unanticipated description better. It's not a surprise that my release went off I just don't know exactly when it will. I have been dedicated to a hinge for about a year and a half now (sold all my other releases) and am so glad I decided to make the change. I restarted from the ground up basically. I was a command shooter who shot 300 high 40's to low 50's x count more often than not. I would have an occasional 299 mixed in there as well. But after shooting one round I would be mentally drained completely. I also knew I would probably never get to a 60x shooting this way.

Now I could shoot 4 or 5 rounds and keep going. Shooting a hinge the proper way is so much easier than command shooting I don't even understand how I even thought archery was fun back then. The learning curve is hard and steep but the payoff is worth it. I now can't fathom putting one in the blueberries and have been shooting 56-58x consistently for a while now. My mental game is what is holding me back but am taking steps to change that as well. The one thing I wish I would have done different is get a coach and that may have sped up my learning process some. It takes dedication to do it. That is the one thing that is great about archery. Whatever amount of time and energy you put into it you will see those results from it. There is nothing that can be bought or taught that will replace time behind the string.


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## VAN DAM (Feb 16, 2010)

Just from my experience if you are used to shooting an index finger release with a punch and then try to start shooting it with back tension it is next to impossible. If you really want to get better, get a hinge type release and learn how to shoot the "unanticipated shot". Dont stress about using true back tension or flexing rhomboids too much because there are several different ways to shoot a hinge release. Most important thing is to focus on aiming. You will eventually hit a plateau trying to be a "command" shooter. I tried to fight it for years and have made big improvements when I went to just a hinge.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

just for safety's sake, considering the attitude allot guys have about my posts, i'll say that this is my opinion about how I see the issues about "surprise release", or "un-anticipated release"
the release process is something that is done so many precise times as we shoot, that it cannot remain as a "surprise". we all have an internal clock, that keeps track of our repeated actions and develops a timed coordinated sequence that allows the action to run at it's optimum level. the release process falls squarely into this realm, so the element of surprise is very nearly eliminated and transforms into an anticipated procedure.
this is proven by the fact that we know we shoot our best, when we go through the efforts that develop a shot process that is designed around the shot window in our float. we recognize there is a period of time in our shot process where our float is minimum and we develop our release execution to run during that minimum float duration.
because of this our release cannot be a surprise, we know it's going to happen during that float period and we expect it to happen then, so it is no longer a surprise. 
what maintains the quality of our shot, is that we train ourselves to deal with the anticipation and teach our shot process to react naturally despite the fact that we know when the shot is going to happen.
again, this is just my opinion, but if you do some research and gain some insight to the process I talk about, you'll discover that's what happens. it's not a matter of "my way, or it's wrong", it's a matter of experience and knowledge of archery from being around it and learning about it, for a long time.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

ron w said:


> just for safety's sake, considering the attitude allot guys have about my posts, i'll say that this is my opinion about how I see the issues about "surprise release", or "un-anticipated release"
> the release process is something that is done so many precise times as we shoot, that it cannot remain as a "surprise". we all have an internal clock, that keeps track of our repeated actions and develops a timed coordinated sequence that allows the action to run at it's optimum level. the release process falls squarely into this realm, so the element of surprise is very nearly eliminated and transforms into an anticipated procedure.
> this is proven by the fact that we know we shoot our best, when we go through the efforts that develop a shot process that is designed around the shot window in our float. we recognize there is a period of time in our shot process where our float is minimum and we develop our release execution to run during that minimum float duration.
> because of this our release cannot be a surprise, we know it's going to happen during that float period and we expect it to happen then, so it is no longer a surprise.
> ...


I do completely understand what you are saying and that was a part of my origanal question in the first post. Regardless of how you set it off or what release you use. You do it over and over and your brain is going to learn when it will go off. I shoot my best when I knew the release was gonna go off but I didn't think about actually setting it off, it just happened. If that makes sense. When the thing truly surprises me it is always a high shot and my heart jumps out of my chest because yeah I was aiming and my pin was on the target but I did not expect it at all right then. My problem is even though that suprise shot is suppose to be the way to do it, I can't trick myself every shot like that and I don't see how anyone can because we learn about how long it's gonna take even if you wait for it you know well it took to long. Time to let down so even the best learn there release and its not a true suprise.

I think alot of the responses have confermed this to me and I think it's more about focusing on the aim and letting the subconscious set the release off more than being suprised by it


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bhutso said:


> I do completely understand what you are saying and that was a part of my origanal question in the first post. Regardless of how you set it off or what release you use. You do it over and over and your brain is going to learn when it will go off. I shoot my best when I knew the release was gonna go off but I didn't think about actually setting it off, it just happened. If that makes sense. When the thing truly surprises me it is always a high shot and my heart jumps out of my chest because yeah I was aiming and my pin was on the target but I did not expect it at all right then. My problem is even though that suprise shot is suppose to be the way to do it, I can't trick myself every shot like that and I don't see how anyone can because we learn about how long it's gonna take even if you wait for it you know well it took to long. Time to let down so even the best learn there release and its not a true suprise.
> 
> I think alot of the responses have confermed this to me and I think it's more about focusing on the aim and letting the subconscious set the release off more than being suprised by it


Stop thinking.
REally that simple.

When you walk down a set of stairs,
you do not think about all the steps.

You feet and legs and hips just move, to keep you balanced,
to keep you upright,
when you walk DOWN a set of stairs.

Muscle memory.
Sequence of movements, BURNED into your nervous system.
You just do it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bhutso said:


> I do completely understand what you are saying and that was a part of my origanal question in the first post. Regardless of how you set it off or what release you use. You do it over and over and your brain is going to learn when it will go off. I shoot my best when I knew the release was gonna go off but I didn't think about actually setting it off, it just happened. If that makes sense. When the thing truly surprises me it is always a high shot and my heart jumps out of my chest because yeah I was aiming and my pin was on the target but I did not expect it at all right then. My problem is even though that suprise shot is suppose to be the way to do it, I can't trick myself every shot like that and I don't see how anyone can because we learn about how long it's gonna take even if you wait for it you know well it took to long. Time to let down so even the best learn there release and its not a true suprise.
> 
> I think alot of the responses have confermed this to me and I think it's more about focusing on the aim and letting the subconscious set the release off more than being suprised by it


Ride a bicycle the first time,
ride a bicycle the first 100 times,
you THINK about what you need to do.

AFTER 10,000 times, of spinning the pedals,
there is no more THINKING about what to do,
when riding a bicycle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

One arrow in the quiver.
Close range.

Fired the arrow one time.
Hang up the bow.
Walk to the target.
PUll out the arrow.
BAck to the shooting line.
Fire the arrow.
Hang up the bow.
Walk to the target.
PULL out the arrow.

This is after 30 SINGLE shots.

FOCUS
CONCENTRATION
NO THINKING about do this, do that, for the release.

JUST get the job done.
NO THINKING.
SNIPER focus.
DEADLY serious.

AIm
Ready 
Fire.

The process, even though YOUR process could be 3 steps, could be 25 steps,
do the process enough, so you no longer have to THINK about what to do next.

That is 30 shots.

Only 970 more shots.

Yes,
1000 LOGGED GOOD shots,
which MIGHT take
1200 tries,
which might take 1492 tries.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

No big deal right?

Just five shots, close range.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AFTER firing SIXTY shots.

FOCUS.
EXECUTION.
MASSIVE amount of practice.

MENTAL discipline.
PAvlovian techniques.
New neural pathway training....(also called brain-washing).

Train a series of movements SOOOOO bloody much,
that the reflex,
yes,
the shot process becomes a nervous system reflex...

that the results become MACHINE like...


So,
do your training,
close range,
and do enough training,
so that you stop thinking.

Do enough practice,
that your MIND shuts down,
(cuz you have practiced SOOO much..you become MIND NUMBINGLY BORED)...

when you are BORED enough,
when you are TIRED enough, not dog tired, 
just tired, bored,
doing the same thing again and again...

then,
your brain WILL shut down,
and your body just takes over.

Peace
Tranquility
and the arrow just slams into the same hole
again and again.

Your mind becomes accustomed to seeing the arrow
slam into the same hole.

RE-training your brain.

Getting your brain to become USED TO seeing the arrow in the middle.

Training your brain to NOT become excited you SMACKED the x-ring,
again and again and again.

Smacking the x-ring becomes a NORMAL circumstance,
a NEW NORMAL circumstance.

When your BRAIN reaction is HO-HUM...
you smacked the x-ring again,
then,
*you no longer PSYCH your self out any more.

THIS is the secret.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
SURPRISE release?

So,
unanticipated release?

BLAH.

If you even NOTICE your release fired,
then,
you are STILL thinking too much,
and your awareness is FOCUSED in the wrong direction.


SEE the sight picture.
Start automatic firing sequence.

Brain shuts down.
All systems go.

When the "rocket" has launched,
then,
continue with your automatic process
and walk forward,
and pull the arrow.

You only have one arrow in your quiver,
so,
do this enough times,
you have a new CONDITIONED response.

Shoot.
Get arrow.

Shoot again.


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## bowhunterCN (Jul 24, 2007)

ron w said:


> just for safety's sake, considering the attitude allot guys have about my posts, i'll say that this is my opinion about how I see the issues about "surprise release", or "un-anticipated release"
> the release process is something that is done so many precise times as we shoot, that it cannot remain as a "surprise". we all have an internal clock, that keeps track of our repeated actions and develops a timed coordinated sequence that allows the action to run at it's optimum level. the release process falls squarely into this realm, so the element of surprise is very nearly eliminated and transforms into an anticipated procedure.
> this is proven by the fact that we know we shoot our best, when we go through the efforts that develop a shot process that is designed around the shot window in our float. we recognize there is a period of time in our shot process where our float is minimum and we develop our release execution to run during that minimum float duration.
> because of this our release cannot be a surprise, we know it's going to happen during that float period and we expect it to happen then, so it is no longer a surprise.
> ...


 I can't agree with you more ！


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

One arrow in the quiver.
Close range.

Fired the arrow one time.
Hang up the bow.
Walk to the target.
PUll out the arrow.
BAck to the shooting line.
Fire the arrow.
Hang up the bow.
Walk to the target.
PULL out the arrow.

I have done this many times with my recurve with a clicker. I know it is going to click soon but I do my best on just to focus on my spot and let my body execute the shot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowhunterCN said:


> I can't agree with you more ！


Yup.

Ever see a golfer at the practice range? 

We archers should LEARN from the golfers.

One club.
Buckets of golf balls.
same swing.
same shot mechanics.
same cadence.
same rhythm. 
Same motionless head position.
same foot position...they call it the address.
ball is positioned precisely in relation to the feet....hips position in relation to the ankles
same following through

See the parallels?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Soooo exactly like Ron says.....

Train so oooo much
that your process to fire your release becomes a conditioned response
so that the cadence
so that the rhythm
so that the shot execution timing
so that the conditioned movement
so that you no longer have any awareness of your entire shot process...

This is the MASSIVELY important part that I see is missing.

When you have completed basic training....

Your awareness is focused elsewhere.

When you are still in training at the most basic levels.....then you are
not done with your mental focus training....
cuz you are STILL aware of your release execution steps....

Like still thinking about what to do next
when walking down a set of stairs.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

this is the stuff, that Lanny Basham's book, "With Winning in Mind", is all about. ..... dealing with the fact that we will naturally learn what is going on and how to keep the fact that we know what's going on,...."what's going to happen next"...... from interfering with what's currently going on.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

I am seeing what you both are saying , Golf is my other passion and I do get the parrels very easily. I have ordered a back tension release and I plan to follow the steps you have laid out, I have already started with my wrist strap. I'm standing really close to the target and firing one arrow at a time focusing on all the steps rythem and cadence to every shot. Been doing this for about an hour a night and its already beginning to become ingrained. I still think about how to set off the release. Relax the hand rest the finger on the trigger push with the bow arm as I squeeze my shoulder blade and it fires constantly and much easier than using command. I have worked my way back to 15 yards and I don't plan to go any farther until I'm not thinking about the process but my good shots, meaning that I executed my shot sequence are starting to multiply rapidly and I am shooting with less and less thought. My poi is only slightly higher that my old way of shooting and not flying way high like before.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

There exist mechanisms that can help you transpher from conscious mind to sub conscious.
I am learning to throw a switch , that switch last for 3.5 seconds. That is my shot window - 
In this 3.5 seconds I force 3 seperate single thoughts into my mind . 
Human conscious mind is single tracked - if I am in my thoughts , I can not be thinking about my release going off. I can only set up my shot , if my I set up is correct , Click I throw the switch - 
I don't need this switch in practice , I blank out very easily and can shoot sub con- however being a mental game I now practice " throwing the switch every shot - 
To find out the time of my " 3.5 second shot window " I clocked Super Xs , any thing released within 3.5 seconds of my click was a Dinger - 
This was/ is a game of trust - I don't trust people , espically myself - in short it's a huge learning curve -


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

It isn't really a surprise to me anymore, matter of fact just the opposite, If the shot didn't go in my intended window, 
I am learning to let down and do over. Instead of forcing the shot to happen late. 
One problem I run into is, I let the engine run too soon and don't really get aiming like I need too.
So I have to consciously tell myself don't start until your ready.
Best description of what I'm trying to do. 
I call it unconscious competence. (Do the task so many times, until, you can do it without thinking about it.)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bees said:


> it isn't really a surprise to me anymore, matter of fact just the opposite, if the shot didn't go in my intended window,
> i am learning to let down and do over. Instead of forcing the shot to happen late.
> One problem i run into is, i let the engine run too soon and don't really get aiming like i need too.
> So i have to consciously tell myself don't start until your ready.
> ...


perfect.

Exactly!


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

shoot first aim second. Plain and simple. When you get this concept you will attain the subconscious unanticipated release you are searching for. 

All shooting troubles comes from the aim. First step Build a form and a bow that will hold tight. Second step learn the difference between acquiring the target and aiming.
third step put a go no go place in your shot sequence. forth step shoot. fifth step aim.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)




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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Bees said:


> It isn't really a surprise to me anymore, matter of fact just the opposite, If the shot didn't go in my intended window,
> I am learning to let down and do over. Instead of forcing the shot to happen late.
> One problem I run into is, I let the engine run too soon and don't really get aiming like I need too.
> So I have to consciously tell myself don't start until your ready.
> ...


 Bees understands what me and NUTSBOLTS are talking about.
"if the shot doesn't go off in my intended window"....is the "timing", we mean. your "internal clock" will develop an certain consistent shot timing, as it strives to make your shot process work at it's optimum level, that needs to be discovered, and then your shot process should be developed around that shot timing. the idea, is to hone that natural shot timing to it's most consistent duration, by letting it develop naturally and establishing a consistency by refusing shots that go beyond the time duration, not by forcing the release to happen with in a particular time. 
it's a mater of not "consciously" controlling your shot,.... letting it happen by it's own internal natural cadence, and then refining that cadence by refusing to allow shots to proceed, by letting down on any shot that goes beyond that natural duration. when you consciously control your shot, you confuse that natural internal cadence that your internal clock develops and when you do that , your shooting will suffer...the results are usually, punching, drive by shooting or some form of target panic.
to improve on this , you need to just bite the bullet and devote as much time as it takes to develop and establish this timing.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ron w said:


> Bees understands what me and NUTSBOLTS are talking about.
> "if the shot doesn't go off in my intended window"....is the "timing", we mean. your "internal clock" will develop an certain consistent shot timing, as it strives to make your shot process work at it's optimum level, that needs to be discovered, and then your shot process should be developed around that shot timing. the idea, is to hone that natural shot timing to it's most consistent duration, by letting it develop naturally and establishing a consistency by refusing shots that go beyond the time duration, not by forcing the release to happen with in a particular time.
> it's a mater of not "consciously" controlling your shot,.... letting it happen by it's own internal natural cadence, and then refining that cadence by refusing to allow shots to proceed, by letting down on any shot that goes beyond that natural duration. when you consciously control your shot, you confuse that natural internal cadence that your internal clock develops and when you do that , your shooting will suffer...the results are usually, punching, drive by shooting or some form of target panic.
> to improve on this , you need to just bite the bullet and devote as much time as it takes to develop and establish this timing.


Correct.

No conscious control of the shot,
but exactly the opposite.

When you walk enough,
surveyors have a conditioned pace,
a very accurate pace, they will use to measure rough distances.

The walking pace, for measuring pace comes from a great deal of practice
is slightly exaggerated,
and the cadence and rhythm is very regular, on purpose.

The surveyor does not THINK about his measuring pace,
he just does it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ron w said:


> Bees understands what me and NUTSBOLTS are talking about.
> "if the shot doesn't go off in my intended window"....is the "timing", we mean. your "internal clock" will develop an certain consistent shot timing, as it strives to make your shot process work at it's optimum level, that needs to be discovered, and then your shot process should be developed around that shot timing. the idea, is to hone that natural shot timing to it's most consistent duration, by letting it develop naturally and establishing a consistency by refusing shots that go beyond the time duration, not by forcing the release to happen with in a particular time.
> it's a mater of not "consciously" controlling your shot,.... letting it happen by it's own internal natural cadence, and then refining that cadence by refusing to allow shots to proceed, by letting down on any shot that goes beyond that natural duration. when you consciously control your shot, you confuse that natural internal cadence that your internal clock develops and when you do that , your shooting will suffer...the results are usually, punching, drive by shooting or some form of target panic.
> to improve on this , you need to just bite the bullet and devote as much time as it takes to develop and establish this timing.


So,
with MASSIVE,
with RIGOROUS training...

not practice shots,
with RIGOROUS training..
the shooter will develop a rhythm
the shooter will fall into a measured cadence, an UNCONSCIOUS cadence
that becomes like clockwork,

your breathing rhythm is not CONTROLLED by your conscious mind,
your breathing rhythm is controlled by the involuntary nervous system.

Like Bees say...

do the TASK...sooooooooo MANY TIMES, until you can do it, without THINKING about it.

I have a 1000 GOOD shot training regimen.
This regimen will BURN a new series of movements into your nervous system....so your SHOT becomes like walking down the stairs.
No thinking.
You just do it, walk down the stairs, exactly the same way,
exactly the same pace,
without THINKING.


Sooo,
like ron w says.....

BITE the bullet
TIME required to develop this new conditioned response.

1000 shots 
doing this ONE time,
is not enough.

For some,
it takes MUCH more than one round of this training regimen.

When you do figure it out,
when your NEW series of movements is BURNED into your nervous system....

your NEW results will speak for themselves.

If you have never tried this BOOT camp style of training...

then,
you have NO idea how well this can work,
cuz,
by definition,
you have never experienced it.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

Just a little update.....

I started shooting a Scott backspin last weekend. I shot many many shots up close just focusing on learning the release, different ways to set it off and being consistant. I've worked my way back from the target as my consistancy and comfort with the release has increased. Ive tried hinge releases 3 other times and I've never given them enough time and close practice to really understand if they would help me or not. I will say the design of the backspin is amazing and has made the transition very easy for me but so had this thread. 

I not gonna lie and say all my shots are perfect at 13 yards which is as far as I've worked back too, but the overwhelming majority of them are!! And the best part is I literally learned 6-7 different way that I can set this realease off when I was blind baling, but I have no idea how I'm setting if off now. I draw relax my hand and forarm until it clicks then I aim aim aim and within 3 seconds it just goes off, sometimes faster sometimes slower but always in my window of time that it is comfortable. 
I still have alot of practice to do, I'm staying up close until I'm satisfied that I'm always making good shots but I have taken to this very quick this time thanks to a great release and alot of great advise. It will be awhile before I take it to the 3d course but when I do I believe I will be a well trained machine


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

nobody, but a very chosen few, make perfect shots every time. it's all about how closely to perfect our deviations are from shot to shot, the bow and it's accessories, puts the arrow where the shooter instructs it to by interpreting the shooters' commands and doing the exact same thing every time it works. 
so where can the only source that makes the bow not hit the mark come from?
the closer to consistently perfect that source is, the better the results of the bow's doing it's work.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

ron w said:


> nobody, but a very chosen few, make perfect shots every time. it's all about how closely to perfect our deviations are from shot to shot, the bow and it's accessories, puts the arrow where the shooter instructs it to by interpreting the shooters' commands and doing the exact same thing every time it works.
> so where can the only source that makes the bow not hit the mark come from?
> the closer to consistently perfect that source is, the better the results of the bow's doing it's work.


it's not about how good the good ones are 
it's all about how good the bad ones are.. 
The archer with the bad shot that is still in the scoring ring, usually wins.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

So when I started this thread I posed the question .....how do you really suprise yourself everytime, I have never been able to shoot any realease in a way that I didn't learn when I would go off and start to anticipate it over time. Well after alot of practice at short range I have learned how to set off my hinge with no thought and no idea of how or when it will fire. And I am shooting with more confidence than ever!!! I just got a new target bow, all I have is a homemade 24 inch stab on it with no back weight, my hunting bow with the ss1 on it points better than this bow it is just too front heavy (I have a new stab setup on the way to get this balanced out) and still I shoot this bow better than ever!! I draw Pull into the click relax and aim and wait and aim some more and bam the shot is in the target, it is a suprise everytime now, most of the time when it goes off my reaction is to close my eyes out of shock, my bow arm shoots forward and my release hand flys back, there is no "faking it" I started shooting close range games at my yellow jacket target, if you are familiar with them they have a red dot a little smaller than the 5 ring on a 5 spot and a black dot inside it I believe is about the size of the X. I'm not really a spot shooter I did one 5 spot league in my life and shot 1 300 in my life with about 30xs and my average was 297 with 20-30 xs. Since I started doing these short games at 12 yards I've shot 5 rounds, 1 was a 299 all the others were 300 and I'm averaging 46 xs. This is only 12 yards but you gotta crawl before you can walk. Most importantly I've learned to shoot properly and learned that the best I thought I could do before was nowhere near my best. I've shot at long ranges as well with the same improvement. I still let my mind wander into the release once in awhile but not very often and I still make some bad shots but they are very few and far between. Thank you guys for all the help!!! My passion for the target side of this sport have been renewed !!!


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Glad to hear your doing well. the way you wrote that seems like you have learned a few things. 

The whole shoot first aim second thing is awesome. you start the expansion to fire your release then return to the aim. The release has to be at least slow enough to not go off until your mind can get back up front and focus on aiming. Actually aiming isnt a good word, it more like watching. You may notice if you stay close for a while that your sight dont actually have to be in the center the whole time. when your mind moves back up front the sight may be off a little, but as you watch youll see it move to the center slightly before your release fires. Thats called trusting your float. The human attn span isnt real long, the whole trying to hold on spot for long periods of time will fry your mind. The way you described your shot and what i just described will only keep you in the actual focused aim for a couple of seconds or less. A couple of seconds or less is well within the human attn span. 

I have seen this work a few hundred times with the people I coach, I try to get them to the point you just described. First with form and bow set up so they will have a stable sight pic. Then I want them to give me a feedback just like you described. Then I get them to write out a shot sequence and practice at 10yds just working on repeating the shot sequence over and over for a week or so. After they get the shot sequence down they can break it down and each day practice working on just their weakest part of their shot sequence and setting up their form. Then I teach people about shot timing at this point because they have all the pieces and when linked together efficiently they will have a definite shot time that should always be pretty close to exact. 

My favorite part is holding the follow thru for a second after the shot breaks like a conclusion to the shot. Some people i get them to focus on their release hand hitting their shoulder in the follow thru and holding it for a second. Thats a very relaxing and intoxicating feeling that has kept me hooked for years. All your muscles release all their tension in an explosion at the same time your lungs expel all their air and is like a tiny massage with every shot. Thats a big help in competition, when everybody else is getting nervous, youll be getting relaxed. 

In my opinion many people go to the longer yardages way before their mind has fully developed around their shot sequence and set up. You can practice all these things up close and let your mind get used to seeing your arrows hit in the middle, and you dont take confidence hits while your developing your shot. You dont really need walking practice and the middle is the middle no matter what distance you shoot. 

I would suggest that you stay 10-15yds for a few weeks and write down your shot sequence and practice that over and over and you may notice that you may never have to go back and repeat all these same elementary learning lessons over and over and you can just go shoot with confidence and have fun. When you want to practice, practice your form and shot sequence at close yardage. 

Blue X


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

Thank you for the Feedback and advise blue x, I fully intend to do the majority of my practice inside my basement at 12 yards, I will sneak outside every once in awhile to test some longer yardage as I plan to shoot 3d when I believe I'm ready but the majority of my practice and learning will stay up close. I'm gonna work on writing down my sequence and practicing it now. And practice watching more than aiming. That's the only time my mind wanders into the release, when it takes too long and my float breaks down you start thinking ok what wasn't I doing that time? But I need to learn to let down and start again because when I have done that the results the second time around have been good.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

I just wanted to post an update, and maybe brag just a little. I got a pm from blue x who offered me some great teaching on my form and shot sequence. After putting these things to use and alot of practice at close range I decided I was ready to start shooting a 3d league, the first night was only the second time I had shot over 12 yards and the first competitive round I've shot with a back tension, not to mention the first competitive round at all in over a year. And it had a few rough spots in it but on average I made mostly good shots, easily out scoring my expectations for my first round but still 31 down. So it was back to the close range practice downstairs, blank bailing, and just drilling my shot sequence over and over all week. Building confidence and getting better every day . 


So for league the second week I started putting it all together for real and shot 320 for 16 targetswith two arrows. 12,10,8,5 scoring. This is better than I would be shooting at the end of the league most years and I'm still improving.!!! 31 pt improvement in one week and I have no reason to believe I can't repeat it every week and get better still . Big thank you to blue x for going out of his way to help me out and helping me enjoy competing archery again.!!!


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