# String/ Serving Winding Machine?



## 60X

Are you spinning by hand now? We're using the apple machines and we've been pretty happy. HTM offers one but it's even more then the apple. How many sets a week are you doing? That would help give a little advice.


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## SCbowmaster

Yes I am spinning by hand now. This time of year I am doing about 3-5 sets a week. But as it ramps up I easily double that number from July through October. I am expecting 4-6k for a machine. One thing I notice with the apple machine is that it only gives about 300# of tension I have been doing a little more than this and and leary of that. Maybe I need to adjust my building techniques some more but what I have been doing works.


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## Bow pro

The Apple goes up to 450lbs.


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## 60X

If that's all the more you're doing I would look into the outer limits moto server or a little jon power winder. It will take you forever to pay for a serving machine. I don't think a true serving machine is needed until you're doing around 50 sets a week. Once we started doing 40-50 I knew it was time for something faster.


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## PDB Strings

I would look into the little jon. It's around $900 last I knew. It's a quality piece and works well if you're doing 5 sets or less a day.


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## ex-wolverine

Also check into the Outer Limits winder...Works like a champ for $125.00 ...PM Jardec on here he just bought an Apple and he might let his little Jon go for a good price...


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## dwagoner

have a moto winder and love it, also Wicked1 is using them too, and he builds quite a few sets a month too


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## after elk

I use the little jon. Its worked well for me and Phil's customer service has been excellent.


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## Bow pro

Like Ex-Wolverine said..........Jaredc has a little john that he would sell.....at least I think he would any way lol!


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## SCbowmaster

If I were just doing strings and nothing else I would agree that the Little John or Moto Winder would be fine. But I do the strings, all bow repairs, New bow setup, Arrow fletching and other related duties I need to optimize my time. especially during crunch time.

Thanks for the info, keep it coming


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## ex-wolverine

I do the same thing, Plus build on average 4 sets a night, plus I have another full time job...You have to ask your self if a 5K machine is really worth the 1 minute you will save on building strings with an apple type server...If you were building strings full time then I would agree the apple might be the ticket...But Im willing to place a wager that I can build with the moto server not to much slower than the apple...





SCbowmaster said:


> If I were just doing strings and nothing else I would agree that the Little John or Moto Winder would be fine. But I do the strings, all bow repairs, New bow setup, Arrow fletching and other related duties I need to optimize my time. especially during crunch time.
> 
> Thanks for the info, keep it coming


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## jaredc

ex-wolverine said:


> I do the same thing, Plus build on average 4 sets a night, plus I have another full time job...You have to ask your self if a 5K machine is really worth the 1 minute you will save on building strings with an apple type server...If you were building strings full time then I would agree the apple might be the ticket...But Im willing to place a wager that I can build with the moto server not to much slower than the apple...


That is one wager that I would not take! Tom and I have timed each other on the phone many times and he is correct when he says there is hardly any speed difference. I like my apple but I sure wish that I hadn't spent $5000 on it as I have a hard time justifying the price tag. If I was building strings full time and had one person dedicated to just serving while I was making the strings then it would be a great system. If you can buy a used apple for cheap or make your own then I would say go for it but if you are looking at buying new then I would take the suggestions that people are giving you. Good luck with whatever way you go.


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## 60X

How many feet a minute does the outer limits tool do? Last I head it was around a foot a minute. My apple doesn't do the 6' a minute they told me(maybe with .025 center serving LOL) but I can do a 3' idler/roller sering in about 45 seconds with .015 mini serving.


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## jaredc

Yeah mine doesn't serve the 6 feet per minute either lol. What I should have put in my previous post was that I am running my machine at 50-60 percent speed as I have found some rotation issues at 100%.


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## SCbowmaster

What about the quality/consistency of the winding? It would be hard to think that they could wind it as uniformly as the Apple or HTM. I am also thinking of ease of use for a novice. Soon I will be hiring some help and teaching them to build strings too. I need to make sure the end result is repeatable. I am also looking at the fact that once you put it under tension to start twisting it stays under tension until completed. 

I am also considering building one. I have a machinist that is readily available for the custom parts. From what I have seen most machines look like a large part of them are made from off the shelf components. That makes the high price tag even harder to swallow.


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## DeadOn-X

I want to CAUTION anyone who may be considering going with the outer limits winding tool. I build my own strings and when I first discovered this tool after it first hit the market last year; I thought it was a brilliant idea and couldn't wait to get one. I ordered one and began testing it out the day I got it. I served up a couple of strings and it appeared to work well except for its tendency to bounce around while it spun around the strings. It seems this behavior is due to fact that the serving tool being spun by the transmission is unbalanced and the weight of the threaded spool wants to carry the device away from the centerline of the string by the centripital force created by the rotation of the apparatus. I found myself trying neutralize this effect by muscling the tool steady. This will become more or less difficult to do depending on the speed of rotation. 

Then I decided to see just how fast I could get it to serve. So I set the 18v Dewalt to setting number two and let it go to about 80% rpm. It was shaking a bit but couldn't keep it completely steady. It was after this test that I realized the flaw in the tools design. During the inpection of the string after this test I noticed significant fuzziness of the string just after the end of the serving that was equal to the width of the transmission. At that point i knew that this was not an appropriate tool to serve a bowstring with. You see, what you have here is a hollow metal shaft spinning at high RPM that is also coming in contact with the sensitive material of the string that is under high tension while it is bouncing or sliding around on it. This contact, however significant, results in friction, heat, abrasion and trauma to the softer material of the bowstring! I removed the serving that I had just applied and sure enough along the entire length of the sting that was served with the tool there was fraying of the string along its entire length! 

I would not recomend this tool nor would I buy any string from someone who uses it to build strings with. Just consider the physics; even the slightest contact with the string from the spinning shaft of this tool or ANY tool like it; may at a minimum cause micro abrassions and an inferior product or worse actually cause damage enough (it may seem unlikely but certainly not improbable) to break the string while it is being served.

I would highly recommend investing in a tool that applies the serving by rotation of the string itself, like the apple pro server, albeit expensive. You could also have one custom made; I know that Brian Visco of Viscosity strings had one fabricated. He told me that it cost him around 900 beans a couple of years ago. 

All this said I am actually in the market for a used late model Apple Pro Server. So if anyone comes across one please let me know.


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## ex-wolverine

Really? So what if it shakes a little, what harm does it do???..Check out my video, learn how to use it and you will have no issues...The Manufacture syas 1200 rpms I believe...Sounds like you were going a little to fast






And if you are burning up your strings with it, I dont know what to say to that without knowing how YOU build strings...

Im sure the Apple is great , In fact I know it is...but come on now...How is this any different than the little jon (probably a million strings built with the LJ) which spins the jig on the serving...How it different than flip serving???.




DeadOn-X said:


> I want to CAUTION anyone who may be considering going with the outer limits winding tool. I build my own strings and when I first discovered this tool after it first hit the market last year; I thought it was a brilliant idea and couldn't wait to get one. I ordered one and began testing it out the day I got it. I served up a couple of strings and it appeared to work well except for its tendency to bounce around while it spun around the strings. It seems this behavior is due to fact that the serving tool being spun by the transmission is unbalanced and the weight of the threaded spool wants to carry the device away from the centerline of the string by the centripital force created by the rotation of the apparatus. I found myself trying neutralize this effect by muscling the tool steady. This will become more or less difficult to do depending on the speed of rotation.
> 
> Then I decided to see just how fast I could get it to serve. So I set the 18v Dewalt to setting number two and let it go to about 80% rpm. It was shaking a bit but couldn't keep it completely steady. It was after this test that I realized the flaw in the tools design. During the inpection of the string after this test I noticed significant fuzziness of the string just after the end of the serving that was equal to the width of the transmission. At that point i knew that this was not an appropriate tool to serve a bowstring with. You see, what you have here is a hollow metal shaft spinning at high RPM that is also coming in contact with the sensitive material of the string that is under high tension while it is bouncing or sliding around on it. This contact, however significant, results in friction, heat, abrasion and trauma to the softer material of the bowstring! I removed the serving that I had just applied and sure enough along the entire length of the sting that was served with the tool there was fraying of the string along its entire length!
> 
> I would not recomend this tool nor would I buy any string from someone who uses it to build strings with. Just consider the physics; even the slightest contact with the string from the spinning shaft of this tool or ANY tool like it; may at a minimum cause micro abrassions and an inferior product or worse actually cause damage enough (it may seem unlikely but certainly not improbable) to break the string while it is being served.
> 
> I would highly recommend investing in a tool that applies the serving by rotation of the string itself, like the apple pro server, albeit expensive. You could also have one custom made; I know that Brian Visco of Viscosity strings had one fabricated. He told me that it cost him around 900 beans a couple of years ago.
> 
> All this said I am actually in the market for a used late model Apple Pro Server. So if anyone comes across one please let me know.


As far as quality of serving it lays down, you be the judge...It is no different than doing it by hand other than the fact its 5 times faster


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## ex-wolverine

I have a challenge for you,

Try touching your eyelets on your jig or the rollers on your Bieters after serving 15" @ 80-100% RPMS on your Apple....I guarantee that the eyelets or rollers are warm to hot...

So my question to you; Is it any less important that your serving gets hot from friction??

So I guess you could


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## bkvisco

when your trying to maintain perfict tolerances on end and center servings within .0002 you need a serving machine. Mine has a 500lb tention coil built in and has never failed me in 6 years. A bearing or 2 but thats it. As a note, getting the serving done fast makes for uneven tolerance of serving diameter........lol just sayin. Quick is good but too fast just wont cut it for us...... Thats how we roll at Viscosity anyway.


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## Purka

I don't want to add fuel to the fire here but I need to be honest.
Three of the four that I've looked at seemed to have the shaft drilled from both ends and the holes didn't line up causing a offset lip in the middle.
It's easily fixed by running a drill through and/or finishing off with some emery tape.etc.
Knowing this would I buy another one ? I certainly would.. For $125 its a great little machine, even if it does need refining.


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## alain

outer limits moto server, where can i buy one ?


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## ex-wolverine

Thats strange did you contact Ben about that? 



Purka said:


> I don't want to add fuel to the fire here but I need to be honest.
> Three of the four that I've looked at seemed to have the shaft drilled from both ends and the holes didn't line up causing a offset lip in the middle.
> It's easily fixed by running a drill through and/or finishing off with some emery tape.etc.
> Knowing this would I buy another one ? I certainly would.. For $125 its a great little machine, even if it does need refining.


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## Purka

ex-wolverine said:


> Thats strange did you contact Ben about that?


A friend of mine that brought two in did.


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## SCbowmaster

bkvisco said:


> when your trying to maintain perfict tolerances on end and center servings within .0002 you need a serving machine. Mine has a 500lb tention coil built in and has never failed me in 6 years. A bearing or 2 but thats it. As a note, getting the serving done fast makes for uneven tolerance of serving diameter........lol just sayin. Quick is good but too fast just wont cut it for us...... Thats how we roll at Viscosity anyway.


So what are you using? The Apple machine? and a 2/10,000th of an inch tolerance? or do you mean 2/1,000th?


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## GILL

Regarding the Outer Limits server wearing the string, I agree it does. I don't see anyway a metal shaft spinning at high RPM's over exposed string material can't cause damage or wear. 

I had been hand winding 5" of serving so the OL server had serving to spin over. After posting on here for solution someone suggested wrapping tape over the exposed / affected area of the string to protect from wear. This has worked very well. Now I hand wrap 3/4" then fold a 5" piece of masking tape over the exposed string, slide the server over the tape and fire up the server. No issues.

I love this product and would recommend it!


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## ex-wolverine

The serving itself dont even have that tight of tolerance...good question?



SCbowmaster said:


> So what are you using? The Apple machine? and a 2/10,000th of an inch tolerance? or do you mean 2/1,000th?


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## drtnshtr

GILL said:


> Regarding the Outer Limits server wearing the string, I agree it does. I don't see anyway a metal shaft spinning at high RPM's over exposed string material can't cause damage or wear.
> 
> I had been hand winding 5" of serving so the OL server had serving to spin over. After posting on here for solution someone suggested wrapping tape over the exposed / affected area of the string to protect from wear. This has worked very well. Now I hand wrap 3/4" then fold a 5" piece of masking tape over the exposed string, slide the server over the tape and fire up the server. No issues.
> 
> I love this product and would recommend it!


Gill, I use one of the OL winders also but I am not sure I understand how you are doing this. I apologize for sounding dumb on this issue but can you clarify how you do this with the tape?


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## drtnshtr

I get very little movement out of the OL winder and Im on 400 LBS of tension. We did have some fraying on one string and contacted OL about it. He told us to lightly sand the edges down. That worked for us.


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## bkvisco

SCbowmaster........yep 2/1000ths. Lol big secret cant tell ya who built mine, but i can tell ya there isnt even a comparison to whats out there.


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## GreggWNY

Re: The OL server... After reading this thread I checked 4 sets that I made yesterday with this tool and see no wear at all.


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## Moparmatty

bkvisco said:


> SCbowmaster........yep 2/1000ths. Lol big secret cant tell ya who built mine, but i can tell ya there isnt even a comparison to whats out there.


Any chance you'd show us a pics of your machine Brian?


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## 60X

Just checked my apple. It's right around 4 feet a minute. This was with .015 mini serving on 16 strands of astro flight.


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## GreggWNY

Even though I found no damage to my strings with the moto server I decided to take no chances so I went to the hardware store and purchased a length of polypropolene tubing. I used a piece that fits thru the bore of the moto and it seems to work very well. There is no chance that this material could harm string material. It feels very slick and smooth. I think there is even less bounce because the diameter of the bore has been reduced.


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## GreggWNY

Here are some pics..


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## Purka

Top idea.:thumbs_up


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## drtnshtr

sweet idea Greg Im heading to the hardware first thing in the morning.


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## Purka

I found a piece of poly that was a tight fit, I pulled it through with a piece of wire than cut it off flush, cut a chamfer of the inside edge with a stanley knife. I tried it on a throw away string..made an unbelievable difference to the smoothness that it spun at.


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## GreggWNY

Purka said:


> I found a piece of poly that was a tight fit, I pulled it through with a piece of wire than cut it off flush, cut a chamfer of the inside edge with a stanley knife. I tried it on a throw away string..made an unbelievable difference to the smoothness that it spun at.


What was the OD diameter?


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## SCbowmaster

bkvisco said:


> SCbowmaster........yep 2/1000ths. Lol big secret cant tell ya who built mine, but i can tell ya there isnt even a comparison to whats out there.


2/1000ths I can believe. That is not hard to make happen. The string materials make that very attainable. As you originally stated it you were saying 2 10,000ths that is the tolerance I was questioning. And yes I have seen your strings. They are a good quality string. wait, oops I wasnt supposed to figure that one out.

I also agree with you on the speed issue. A little slower and smoother is far more important.


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## Purka

GreggWNY said:


> What was the OD diameter?


I used a 11/32 drill to line the hole up on my lathe..the OD of the tubing has 8mm. stamped on it ( being australia)


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## Bow pro

Wouldnt the softer material you are putting inside of the moto create more heat then the metal would?


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## ex-wolverine

I must have gottrn the only good motos in the world, I have not had any fuzzing or damage with mine



Bow pro said:


> Wouldnt the softer material you are putting inside of the moto create more heat then the metal would?


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## Bow pro

Tom........I was just trying to make a point. The softer material would create more heat then the metal would. Just trying to make it known that he is kinda shooting himself in the foot. And no you are not the only one that got a good one!:thumbs_up


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## ex-wolverine

I agree that sof plastic or rubber will generate more heat



Bow pro said:


> Tom........I was just trying to make a point. The softer material would create more heat then the metal would. Just trying to make it known that he is kinda shooting himself in the foot. And no you are not the only one that got a good one!:thumbs_up


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## PDB Strings

We tried the moto winder. It's descent for the money but we had the fuzzing issues and didn't care for the bounce.


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## bkvisco

When we get the new one in a few weeks.......i'll post up a pic.........


Brian


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## Purka

ex-wolverine said:


> I agree that sof plastic or rubber will generate more heat


I'll try it and check it for heat, if it is a problem I'll re sleeve it or make a new shaft with a smaller ID.


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## GreggWNY

What about Teflon tubing?


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## Wicked1Archery

ex-wolverine said:


> I must have gottrn the only good motos in the world, I have not had any fuzzing or damage with mine


Wow ,we must have gotten one of the good ones too as we've never had any fuzzing or damage issues and our strings like yours are put under heavy and consistent daily use. No issues here and I know Joe wouldn't trade his for the world and he builds full time every single day.


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## Hoyt Smoke 1976

I have never had any problems with mine either! Yes,it does have some bounce but serve 10 sets of strings a day by hand and and you will forget about the bounce it has!


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## Moparmatty

bkvisco said:


> When we get the new one in a few weeks.......i'll post up a pic.........
> 
> 
> Brian


Thanks Brian. 

:thumb: :thumb:


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## fletched

I built my own serving machine. I have around $700 in it. It works great. It is variable speed and I can load to over 400 pounds with no problem. I can serve as fast as I want. i have a outer limit serving tool too. I have no complaints with it but I prefer a serving machine. Here are a few pics of my machine.


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## Moparmatty

Are both ends of all the commercial serving machines driven off the motor like the one that Fletched built? Or in one end free to spin while only one end is driven?


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## ex-wolverine

Yes

The apple has a shaft running the length of the table to another belt and pully...It has to be that way or one end would always playing catch up...you need the string to spin evenly



Moparmatty said:


> Are both ends of all the commercial serving machines driven off the motor like the one that Fletched built? Or in one end free to spin while only one end is driven?


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## DssBB

There is an alternative option if anyone was interested in buiding their own winding machine along the lines of SDLAW or fletched winding machine and eliminate the main drive rod, pillow bearing blocks and drill which ties and drives both ends of the stretching jig together. The design I was looking at using would give you variable speed, both ends being precisely synchronized to each other and the rotational movement would be very precise. What I was looking at using was having each end of the stretching unit driven by a DC stepping motor and both fed from one variable speed controller.

The advantage to using stepping motors over a servo motor or any other motor would be the rotational movement. The motors would would both start and stop in exactly the same spot thus eliminating any overrun which occurs in a motor and this would garrentee that both ends of the string would rotate at exactly the same speed and always be in snyc with each other. You would also not have to worry about having a rotating shaft running the length of your jig and potentially having something caught in it or any twisting in the rod. Another advantage would be the length of the unit, it would not matter if you were making a 1' long string or a 8' long string. Both the ends of the stretching/winding unit could easily be slid along the uni-strut without having any interferance from the underneath pillow bearings or drive rod. The speed could be controlled either by a potentiometer or a foot switch control similar to that of a sewing machine and would make working on either of the jig very easy.
The cost on building one would all determine where you were able to purchase the stepping motors and controllers and which ones were needed. 
I have limited experience with electronics and would need some assistance with choosing the right motors and controller, however, the concept in itself should work quiet well if anyone was interested in persuing the idea.


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## ex-wolverine

You guys are very talented folks...I appreciate the ingineuity...Pretty cool to hear ideas like this



DssBB said:


> There is an alternative option if anyone was interested in buiding their own winding machine along the lines of SDLAW or fletched winding machine and eliminate the main drive rod, pillow bearing blocks and drill which ties and drives both ends of the stretching jig together. The design I was looking at using would give you variable speed, both ends being precisely synchronized to each other and the rotational movement would be very precise. What I was looking at using was having each end of the stretching unit driven by a DC stepping motor and both fed from one variable speed controller.
> 
> The advantage to using stepping motors over a servo motor or any other motor would be the rotational movement. The motors would would both start and stop in exactly the same spot thus eliminating any overrun which occurs in a motor and this would garrentee that both ends of the string would rotate at exactly the same speed and always be in snyc with each other. You would also not have to worry about having a rotating shaft running the length of your jig and potentially having something caught in it or any twisting in the rod. Another advantage would be the length of the unit, it would not matter if you were making a 1' long string or a 8' long string. Both the ends of the stretching/winding unit could easily be slid along the uni-strut without having any interferance from the underneath pillow bearings or drive rod. The speed could be controlled either by a potentiometer or a foot switch control similar to that of a sewing machine and would make working on either of the jig very easy.
> The cost on building one would all determine where you were able to purchase the stepping motors and controllers and which ones were needed.
> I have limited experience with electronics and would need some assistance with choosing the right motors and controller, however, the concept in itself should work quiet well if anyone was interested in persuing the idea.


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## Bow pro

I'm pretty sure that the HTM is set up like what you are describing DssBB. I would think you could have it wired were you could put your twist in the string like the HTM.


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## SCbowmaster

The HTM machine looks like it uses stepping motors. That is what I was thinking also. But you can still use 1 stepping motor and the rod to tie both ends together.


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## ex-wolverine

Im hearing that the HTM is slow, plus its 7500.00...Thats why folks are going with the appel


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## fletched

You would have to consider that with motors, you will have to find a way not to pull directly against them. When loading a string to 300 pounds, you have a lot of side forces that need to be address and designed into the serving machine. I have tapered bearings in mine to handle the side thrust. With a stepper motor, you would have to use a belt and pulley so that the load won't be transferred to the motor. Mine uses a hex shaft and no mater where my floating head is, it will spin. Inside the bearing block, I have a hex shaped tube. It looks like a socket that is open on both ends. This lets it slide along the hex shaft while allowing it to spin at all time. I have a variable speed that is made for routers. I have a little rope that runs the length of the machine and I can slide the variable speed control along with me as I work. I tried a foot control but it was to hard to keep at a consistent speed. I use a worm gear winch to load the string a a small scale that goes to 440 pounds. This serving machine works great and is very user friendly.


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## 60X

I would love to know more about the htm machine. Other then an pic here or there I haven't seen much. If it serves slower but saves time twisting and stretching and it may be a tradeoff


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## Purka

60X said:


> I would love to know more about the htm machine. Other then an pic here or there I haven't seen much. If it serves slower but saves time twisting and stretching and it may be a tradeoff


HTM. Remote controlled, duel motor driven micro-adjustable string tension adjustment up to 450lb. or more.
two buttons forward and reverse for low speed. Two buttons the same for high speed. Two buttons for for string twist, one forward one reverse with counter.
Sounds like the ducks ....


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## DssBB

fletched,
Your machine looks great and I was just suggesting another alterative using 2 stepping motors and 1 controller as an option if someone was wanting to build one or have one made for their shop. There are alot of options and variables to consider when it comes designing and building a winding /stretching jig such as side thrust, consistant speed control, ease of use and cost as you pointed and out but it I'm sure a machine could easily be built for alot less then buying a commerially made one. 
There are ton of projects and videos on the web where stepping motors are used and explained and they would work quite well for an application such as this and if I was personally to make a jig, it would be the avenue I would persue.


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## Moparmatty

How much tension would everyone like in a serving machine?

What would your optimum serving rpm be?

And how many would you buy? LOL!

I was also thinking stepper motors DssBB.


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## ex-wolverine

No more than 400lbs for me
Dont know about RPMS...Dont know any different
If its under 4 grand you would sell a bunch



Moparmatty said:


> How much tension would everyone like in a serving machine?
> 
> What would your optimum serving rpm be?
> 
> And how many would you buy? LOL!
> 
> I was also thinking stepper motors DssBB.


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## ex-wolverine

Talk to Michael at Terminal Velocity, Crackers, John at Bucknaasty, they all have one...I have talked to Michael and John about the HTM..



60X said:


> I would love to know more about the htm machine. Other then an pic here or there I haven't seen much. If it serves slower but saves time twisting and stretching and it may be a tradeoff


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## Moparmatty

60X said:


> Just checked my apple. It's right around 4 feet a minute. This was with .015 mini serving on 16 strands of astro flight.


That's 1600 rpm by my calculations.


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## fletched

DssBB said:


> fletched,
> Your machine looks great and I was just suggesting another alterative using 2 stepping motors and 1 controller as an option if someone was wanting to build one or have one made for their shop. There are alot of options and variables to consider when it comes designing and building a winding /stretching jig such as side thrust, consistant speed control, ease of use and cost as you pointed and out but it I'm sure a machine could easily be built for alot less then buying a commerially made one.
> There are ton of projects and videos on the web where stepping motors are used and explained and they would work quite well for an application such as this and if I was personally to make a jig, it would be the avenue I would persue.


I hope you didn't think I took offense to you ideas. I thought about different ways to build a serving machine. With stepper motors, you will have to find a way to keep from pulling directly against the motor. At 300+ pounds of tension, I don't think the motor can withstand those forces. Plus you will have a the wires to contend with. You will have to have some type of auto spool to keep track of the wires. Most stepper motor don't have much power at slow speeds. That's why i went with a 1/2" drill. I wanted low end torque. To use the stepper motors, you may have to have a shaft with pulleys and belt to drive the head. This way, the shaft can hold the weight and the motor won't be effected. I opted for the hex shaft design to for the simplicity and reliability. If i had to do it over again, I would use a timing belt and sprocket instead of the chains. I think it would make it easier to build. Even though mine runs smooth and quiet, the belt would be a bett choice. I used 10 foot superstrut rails. I had to extend my rails with a bracket so I could get more length for longer strings. If I built another one, I would buy 20 foot rails and cut them down to 14 foot. The hex shaft comes in 12 foot lengths. The extra 2 foot will give me room for the winch, drill and scale. On my machine, one head is stationary and is positioned at one end. The other head is the one that I can adjust for different string lengths. I put some roller bearing on the bottom of the head unit that ride againt the bottom of the rail. this keeps it lined up and rolls smooth when pulling under tension. If I built anther one, I would design it with the roller bearing to fit inside rails rather than underneath. This would allow for the machine to be mounted on a table. I have a small rope that runs the length of the machine that my variable speed control hooks too. I can slide it along as I go move. I tried a foot control but it was too hard to keep the speed at an even rpm.

The prices of buying a serving machine are around 5 grand and up. That wasn't going to happen. I built mine for a lot less. It works great and is very user friendly. If you go with the stepper motors, let me know how it works out.


----------



## DeadOn-X

Moparmatty, 

1. At least up to 450 lbs.
2. Variable up to 3000 rpm.

Additionally,

A basic model with steppers or servos that are manually controlled by way of variable speed controls like a foot pedal; I would be willing to pay up to 1200 beans.

A Professional model that can acomplish the same routines as the top shelf HTM and if someone had the credentials to actually fabricate a custom job and warranty the product I would go up to 2500. If that person exists; send me your resume!

I have researched this in the past and have "estimated" that one could probably build a DIY quality pro level device for between $1200 and $1800 (materials cost). Maybe a bit less with generic technology. This does Not include the Software and computer that is required to run the operations that control the special features. Yes, this can get expensive. But it would quite a bit less than the HTM or the Apple products. Also it certainly would require a fairly high level of techno literacy for the DIY'er. Not something that someone should jump into without a lot of research and a planned out approach.


----------



## Moparmatty

DeadOn-X said:


> Moparmatty,
> 
> 1. At least up to 450 lbs.
> 2. Variable up to 3000 rpm.
> 
> Additionally,
> 
> A basic model with steppers or servos that are manually controlled by way of variable speed controls like a foot pedal; I would be willing to pay up to 1200 beans.
> 
> A Professional model that can acomplish the same routines as the top shelf HTM and if someone had the credentials to actually fabricate a custom job and warranty the product I would go up to 2500. If that person exists; send me your resume!
> 
> I have researched this in the past and have "estimated" that one could probably build a DIY quality pro level device for between $1200 and $1800 (materials cost). Maybe a bit less with generic technology. This does Not include the Software and computer that is required to run the operations that control the special features. Yes, this can get expensive. But it would quite a bit less than the HTM or the Apple products. Also it certainly would require a fairly high level of techno literacy for the DIY'er. Not something that someone should jump into without a lot of research and a planned out approach.


If I was still working as a tool and die maker and CNC machinist/programmer I'd already have the machines fired up.


----------



## DeadOn-X

Maybe your should reconsider you retirement:darkbeer:


----------



## Moparmatty

DeadOn-X said:


> Maybe you should reconsider you retirement:darkbeer:


Retirement at 34? I wish!

Currently working as a millwright. But I'm always open to a new adventure or offer.


----------



## DssBB

Moparmatty,

Being a toolmaker myself, maybe we should hook up and put our skills to work and make a couple of winders. I don't think your that far from me.


----------



## DeadOn-X

Now your talkin! Sounds like your already 70% there. I hear the sweet humming of an elite finely tuned machine in the background!


----------



## DssBB

If I put a lathe and mill in my garage, the sounds of my wife nagging would certainly dround out the sounds of any finely tuned machine.


----------



## DeadOn-X

LMAO:set1_rolf2:


----------



## Purka

This is DIY one made with two stepper or servo motors by Caulton on Archery Forum.
He also makes a smick fletching jig..


----------



## Moparmatty

DssBB said:


> Moparmatty,
> 
> Being a toolmaker myself, maybe we should hook up and put our skills to work and make a couple of winders. I don't think your that far from me.


I wish I had a place to do work.


----------



## Moparmatty

DssBB said:


> If I put a lathe and mill in my garage, the sounds of my wife nagging would certainly dround out the sounds of any finely tuned machine.


There'd be no nagging from mine as long as I was making money.


----------



## Purka

Here is the link to my previous post.http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?33275-String-Jig-with-lazy-server&highlight=


----------



## DeadOn-X

There you go! Crude, but on the right track. BTW, is that a LOCOMOTIVE shock absorber in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?? :mg: This is the digital age right? That is waaay old school analog; must be a better way to gauge tension than THAT!


----------



## DeadOn-X

Moparmatty said:


> There'd be no nagging from mine as long as I was making money.


Rodger; that's a big M.M.M. Man Makes Money & Money Makes M:shade:n.


----------



## 60X

If I had the tools and knowledge to build one of these things strings would be the last thing I'd be building.


----------



## GWN_Nuge

Hey Rob I've got a pile of ideas swirling in my head regarding this stuff. I've got one idea that I want to prototype... might be a waste of time but might not be either I'll see if I can put something together on paper and run it by you the next time you're down in this neck of the woods.

Cheers,

Nuge


----------



## DssBB

Nuge,

Anytime buddy, I'm running out of stuff to make and there's still almost 2 months till 3D starts.


----------



## ex-wolverine

While you guys are at it come up with some sort of efficient way to spool from 1# spools onto jig spools


----------



## GWN_Nuge

ex-wolverine said:


> While you guys are at it come up with some sort of efficient way to spool from 1# spools onto jig spools


That's one of things I'm mulling around as we speak Tom


----------



## WallaceB String

Tom,
I rigged up a little shaft assembly out of threaded rod, bushings, nuts and washers that goes on the Little Jon winder and it works great.


----------



## GWN_Nuge

WallaceB String said:


> Tom,
> I rigged up a little shaft assembly out of threaded rod, bushings, nuts and washers that goes on the Little Jon winder and it works great.


I have a little jon at home as well. Any chance you could post a pic up of what you put together?


----------



## Bow pro

GWN_Nuge said:


> I have a little jon at home as well. Any chance you could post a pic up of what you put together?


I would love to see this as well!


----------



## SDLAW

ex-wolverine said:


> While you guys are at it come up with some sort of efficient way to spool from 1# spools onto jig spools


Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried adapting the spool from a quick-change baitcast fishing reel to a serving jig. If it would work, it could make quick work of the process.


----------



## 60X

The ability to serve off of 1lb spools is one of the big advantages of a serving machine in my book.


----------



## WallaceB String

*Jig Spooler Picture*

Here are some photo's of my under $10.00 jig spooler. The only other thing you need is a pair of Kevlar or suitable gloves. The large parent size spool just sits on the string jig post.


----------



## b0w_bender

Not sure how this fits into the high volume arena but a bunch of builders have bought them and reported back good things. at $30.00 it's hard not to try it?

You don't need to take the string off the jig or lace it through anything either.

Oh for the re-spooler I use the wife's sewing machine

1UYu6twSNKI


----------



## PDB Strings

Neat tool but not in the same class as a serving machine. We're pretty happy with our apples. When time allows one of our fab buddies is going to do a new and improved apple for us. It will allow twisting and have a 500lb spring in it. Ball park figure is around 2 grand right now. We just chuck up the spools on a bolt in a drill and wind them that way. I think a drill is 1725rpm.


----------



## ex-wolverine

You just holding on to the 1 pound spool



PDB Strings said:


> Neat tool but not in the same class as a serving machine. We're pretty happy with our apples. When time allows one of our fab buddies is going to do a new and improved apple for us. It will allow twisting and have a 500lb spring in it. Ball park figure is around 2 grand right now. We just chuck up the spools on a bolt in a drill and wind them that way. I think a drill is 1725rpm.


----------



## 60X

I put the 1lb jig on one of the jig dowels and I have a little bolt I chuck into a drill with the little spool on.


----------



## DssBB

You guys should google "electric bobbin winders". Here's a few links to some I found and some videos showing how it works. I'm sure with a quick trip to Lowes to pick up a few pieces of wood, some 1/4" rod you can make one up yourselves with some modifacations but at least it give you the concepts. You can also substitute the electric motor for a hand drill or steal the motor off your wifes sewing machine (they make great motors for arrow saws too.)

http://kruzh.com/en/book/4_4.html
http://www.leclerclooms.com/ind_eng.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2E1i-4XEg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JG5CDTQvOU


----------



## Purka

A sewing machine type would be great with a spring loaded tongue so it would layer wind on the spool. Compared to random wound by a drill.


----------



## GWN_Nuge

WallaceB String said:


> Here are some photo's of my under $10.00 jig spooler. The only other thing you need is a pair of Kevlar or suitable gloves. The large parent size spool just sits on the string jig post.


Thanks for the pics! I take it you provide even tension by letting the material run through your gloved hand? Might have to raid the parts bin in the garage to see what I can come up with. The better half is getting tired of holding the bulk spool when it's time to load a few spools


----------



## ex-wolverine

Just be careful when using any friction on any serving material when spooling it off...As the heat from a glove or sandwhiched between a phone book or anything like that will prematurely weaken or damage the material...If you can just tension the spool itself it would be much safer



GWN_Nuge said:


> Thanks for the pics! I take it you provide even tension by letting the material run through your gloved hand? Might have to raid the parts bin in the garage to see what I can come up with. The better half is getting tired of holding the bulk spool when it's time to load a few spools


----------



## GWN_Nuge

ex-wolverine said:


> Just be careful when using any friction on any serving material when spooling it off...As the heat from a glove or sandwhiched between a phone book or anything like that will prematurely weaken or damage the material...If you can just tension the spool itself it would be much safer


Good point Tom. Currently who ever gets to hold the bulk spool gets to apply the tension to the spool itself. I'll see if I can't come up with something.


----------



## DssBB

Nuge,
If you are holding the bulk spool on a piece of threaded rod similar to the jig WallaceB posted , add a light compression spring to the rod on each side of the spool and between some fender washers to put some drag on faces of the spool. That will give you tension on the spool and as you compress the springs, the tension will increase.


----------



## GWN_Nuge

DssBB said:


> Nuge,
> If you are holding the bulk spool on a piece of threaded rod similar to the jig WallaceB posted , add a light compression spring to the rod on each side of the spool and between some fender washers to put some drag on faces of the spool. That will give you tension on the spool and as you compress the springs, the tension will increase.


Sounds like a plan Rob!


----------



## bcarchery

Since we are talking about spools. Where is the direct source for our jig spools? Try to find them online other than off of Sharron and Judy


----------



## 60X

I think shipping would eat up any savings by not getting them off BCY or Brownell. I try to get 20 or so with every order so I don't run low and don't get hammered on shipping.


----------



## Moparmatty

bkvisco said:


> When we get the new one in a few weeks.......i'll post up a pic.........
> 
> 
> Brian


Any chance you could post some pics yet Brian?


----------



## foudarme

I have been myself disappointed by the moto: it damages the astro fiber and the winder doesn't stay tight without making the string twisting even at 350# of tension...nobody has string twisting problems?


----------



## GreggWNY

I have probably made over one hundred strings with the Moto and no problems. I do use a Teflon sleeve in the bore of the moto. This all but eliminates bounce, keeps the colors from running and keeps friction to a minimum.


----------



## foudarme

GreggWNY said:


> I have probably made over one hundred strings with the Moto and no problems. I do use a Teflon sleeve in the bore of the moto. This all but eliminates bounce, keeps the colors from running and keeps friction to a minimum.


I am going to try it...no over thigthening problems before tubing it?


----------



## GreggWNY

Here are photos of the Telflon tube out and in the moto.


----------



## PDB Strings

We may have to try that and see if it helps any. We were very disappointed in the moto's but the price was right.


----------



## Deezlin

I know the price is considerably higher than the Outer Limits serving winders, but I really believe the results are better. There is a video on the website listed below.


----------



## jaredc

I do all my serving with an apple but I have to say that the moto actually impressed me for the price. I don't use one but I spent about four days at Ex-Wolverine's house and we cranked out a tonne of strings with this little machine. I know that on Tom's moto, absolutely no damage was done to the string material (Astro or Excel) and the moto worked very well. If my memory serves me correctly I think he has owned 3 of these machines without any problems to date. Maybe you guys should try to get in contact with him and figure out if you are doing things differently.


----------



## ex-wolverine

YEP

1400 RPMS and never seen a fuzz ball any where...




jaredc said:


> I do all my serving with an apple but I have to say that the moto actually impressed me for the price. I don't use one but I spent about four days at Ex-Wolverine's house and we cranked out a tonne of strings with this little machine. I know that on Tom's moto, absolutely no damage was done to the string material (Astro or Excel) and the moto worked very well.  If my memory serves me correctly I think he has owned 3 of these machines without any problems to date. Maybe you guys should try to get in contact with him and figure out if you are doing things differently.


----------



## ex-wolverine

are your machines nice ? Yes, I have built a ton of strings with your machines and I thank you for it...

But how can you say the results are better with yours? They do the exact same thing, spin the jig around the string. There are three main differences.

1. the moto can be used at a higher RPM
2. The long lengths of serving can be done without stoping or moving the machine
3. You siad it yourself, price, 

The only down side to the moto, you are limited to their serving tool...Not a big deal , I have attached the bracket to Cartels and AAE serving tools and they woork great

if you want the best of both worlds for even less money, fast efficient and you can use the tool of your choice

The Northwest Spinner...I use the Bieters (my personal favorite) with it and I have that thing moving fast with no bounce

Advantages 

1. Cheap
2. Fast
3. Dont have to thread the string through the machine..
4. Serve long lengths with out stopping...

I dont really see any disadvantages to this except I wish I would have thought of it...







Deezlin said:


> I know the price is considerably higher than the Outer Limits serving winders, but I really believe the results are better. There is a video on the website listed below.


----------



## ex-wolverine

I forgot to add that there are no downsides to Phils machine...the fit and finish on Phils products are second to none...There is no way you can damage a string with his serving machine...

Also there is no match out there for his jig posts...none, no one comes close to his jigs, stretcher/twister...

And if he built a 4 post jig with the same fit and finish as his 3 post they would sell like hot cakes



ex-wolverine said:


> are your machines nice ? Yes, I have built a ton of strings with your machines and I thank you for it...
> 
> But how can you say the results are better with yours? They do the exact same thing, spin the jig around the string. There are three main differences.
> 
> 1. the moto can be used at a higher RPM
> 2. The long lengths of serving can be done without stoping or moving the machine
> 3. You siad it yourself, price,
> 
> The only down side to the moto, you are limited to their serving tool...Not a big deal , I have attached the bracket to Cartels and AAE serving tools and they woork great
> 
> if you want the best of both worlds for even less money, fast efficient and you can use the tool of your choice
> 
> The Northwest Spinner...I use the Bieters (my personal favorite) with it and I have that thing moving fast with no bounce
> 
> Advantages
> 
> 1. Cheap
> 2. Fast
> 3. Dont have to thread the string through the machine..
> 4. Serve long lengths with out stopping...
> 
> I dont really see any disadvantages to this except I wish I would have thought of it...


----------



## Deezlin

ex-wolverine said:


> are your machines nice ? Yes, I have built a ton of strings with your machines and I thank you for it...
> 
> But how can you say the results are better with yours? They do the exact same thing, spin the jig around the string. There are three main differences.
> 
> 1. the moto can be used at a higher RPM
> 2. The long lengths of serving can be done without stoping or moving the machine
> 3. You siad it yourself, price,
> 
> The only down side to the moto, you are limited to their serving tool...Not a big deal , I have attached the bracket to Cartels and AAE serving tools and they woork great
> 
> if you want the best of both worlds for even less money, fast efficient and you can use the tool of your choice
> 
> The Northwest Spinner...I use the Bieters (my personal favorite) with it and I have that thing moving fast with no bounce
> 
> Advantages
> 
> 1. Cheap
> 2. Fast
> 3. Dont have to thread the string through the machine..
> 4. Serve long lengths with out stopping...
> 
> I dont really see any disadvantages to this except I wish I would have thought of it...


The main reason that I said my machine serves better is, serving can be applied more consistantly. With the moto tool you have to move the drill as you are serving. I am sure that it is quite possible to more too fast or too slow. Moving too fast would probably result in gapping or pulling the guide pins out of the miter box. Moving too slow probably would cause the tool to hit the plate and result in a back serving. I am sure that you have seen both. With the Little Jon the serving tool guide down the rods as the serving is placed on the string. It pushes the serving tool down the rods. The friction between the serving tool and rods causes the serving to pack some and results in a tighter serving. You only have to push the drill trigger to make it happen. I have video of my three year old grand daughter running the serving winder. 

The other problem with both of these tools is you have to use both hands to hold the drill while you are applying serving. I found a long time ago, I had to use a string holding bar to hold the string and keep it from twisting. This is particular true in the center of the string were you are applying center serving and idler wheel serving. Otherwise, you can serve as fast as you want with these machines, but you will load the string, if you are not extremely careful. Also if you don't get the center serving tight enough, you will have constant problems of separation. How do you hold the tag end while you are doing center serving, if both hand are holding the drill?

I prefer to stop and start the winder for safety reason. You could loosen the mounting bolts and move on the fly for end serving. As far as speed goes. You use a 1400 RPM drill, how much gear reduction is in the moto tool? The Little Jon winder has a 1.33 to 1 ratio on the belt drive. So with with a 650 rpm drill, the tool is running 500 rpm. With the drill running at 650 rpm, 12 inches of .017 3D serving in 60 seconds. Perhaps, that isn't fast enough for some people, but it makes a very tight serving that doesn't cause rotation or separation problems. You could increase the drill RPM but you would have more shaking problems, which sometimes does effect the serving quality.

As far as price, I realize that the Little Jon jig and serving winders are a hunk of change, but as of yet, I have never had a winder come back for repairs. We had some problems with screws on the jig for a while, but I believe those problems are behind us and I had everyone up and running ASAP. This is why, the Little Jon jigs and winders have a life time warranty. I really believe they should last a long time.

I guess, the real question is how many strings you are producing? If you are doing a few strings then probably the moto tool or NWspinner might do the job, but I know the little jon winders are built like tanks and will serve strings all day long for years with zero problems. This is why, these machines are seldom sold and have a high resale value.


----------



## GreggWNY

I only use one hand with the drill and moto. The other hand (left) can either hold the string to prevent and bounce or twist or in the case of some servings, hold the tag end and the string. Also, if you watch the serving jig carefully you will quickly learn to gauge the distance between the moto and the serving jig. Thew trick is never take your eye off that spot! The more you do it, the easier it gets.

And Brad....thanks for complimenting my string on my buddy's bow at Erie this weekend. :smile:


----------



## ex-wolverine

Same here Gregg

As a matter of fact the moto pushes the drill allowing for a tight stack/tracking of the serving...

I also use the NW spinner with one hand, with ease I might add...

Phil

Not everyone uses your style of center serving, especially the Apple machine guy's, unless they do it by hand...




GreggWNY said:


> I only use one hand with the drill and moto. The other hand (left) can either hold the string to prevent and bounce or twist or in the case of some servings, hold the tag end and the string. Also, if you watch the serving jig carefully you will quickly learn to gauge the distance between the moto and the serving jig. Thew trick is never take your eye off that spot! The more you do it, the easier it gets.
> 
> And Brad....thanks for complimenting my string on my buddy's bow at Erie this weekend. :smile:


----------



## bowtecee

I have to smile at some of the comments here about the amount of serving overheating be applied with the moto tool. The amount of fuzziness gained by the unit spinning about the string. This is not an apple vs. apple discussion here. Maybe with Little john it is but for comparing it with an Apple or HTM it's not even in the same league. 

To be quite honest, you are going to have friction no matter what you have whether you are spinning at 30 RPM or 1200 RPM. The faster you spin, the more heat and friction generated even on an HTM or Apple. Working with the machine to find a tension tolerable to the spinning rate is key for any of the above noted machines. If you are looking for a machine while you reach the recommended 50-70 strings a week count, then by all means look at the Little John or Moto Tool. I use the moto tool because Don Kudlacek holds the original patent on this machine and has successfully run and developed several patented tools or accessories for the archery community over the past 50 years. He too created this machine and used it to develop all his strings sold or his unique bow designs as well as sell to end users in the Pacific Northwest. I was looking for a machine of this type prior to purchasing it prior to it coming out for the ATA show this year in early December 2010. It has saved my hands from carpel tunner issues and increased productivity. I have built over 500 strings since it's purchase and as long as I maintain it with grease on the gears about every 30 strings or so, it still performs. And it spins quite well. I don't go over about 250 RPM on my hand drill as I have had some issues where my tension has been a little on the tight side and I have acually snapped the serving close to completing the served section. But this can be done on any machine. You just need to work the speed and tension together to get what you want. I highly recommend Ben's machine. The price and quality is there. The rest is left up to the string builder. Not a bad product for $125.00.


----------



## 60X

Hey Mike I thought you used the HTM machines?


----------



## rick prather

DeadOn-X said:


> I want to CAUTION anyone who may be considering going with the outer limits winding tool. I build my own strings and when I first discovered this tool after it first hit the market last year; I thought it was a brilliant idea and couldn't wait to get one. I ordered one and began testing it out the day I got it. I served up a couple of strings and it appeared to work well except for its tendency to bounce around while it spun around the strings. It seems this behavior is due to fact that the serving tool being spun by the transmission is unbalanced and the weight of the threaded spool wants to carry the device away from the centerline of the string by the centripital force created by the rotation of the apparatus. I found myself trying neutralize this effect by muscling the tool steady. This will become more or less difficult to do depending on the speed of rotation.
> 
> Then I decided to see just how fast I could get it to serve. So I set the 18v Dewalt to setting number two and let it go to about 80% rpm. It was shaking a bit but couldn't keep it completely steady. It was after this test that I realized the flaw in the tools design. During the inpection of the string after this test I noticed significant fuzziness of the string just after the end of the serving that was equal to the width of the transmission. At that point i knew that this was not an appropriate tool to serve a bowstring with. You see, what you have here is a hollow metal shaft spinning at high RPM that is also coming in contact with the sensitive material of the string that is under high tension while it is bouncing or sliding around on it. This contact, however significant, results in friction, heat, abrasion and trauma to the softer material of the bowstring! I removed the serving that I had just applied and sure enough along the entire length of the sting that was served with the tool there was fraying of the string along its entire length!
> 
> I would not recomend this tool nor would I buy any string from someone who uses it to build strings with. Just consider the physics; even the slightest contact with the string from the spinning shaft of this tool or ANY tool like it; may at a minimum cause micro abrassions and an inferior product or worse actually cause damage enough (it may seem unlikely but certainly not improbable) to break the string while it is being served.
> 
> I would highly recommend investing in a tool that applies the serving by rotation of the string itself, like the apple pro server, albeit expensive. You could also have one custom made; I know that Brian Visco of Viscosity strings had one fabricated. He told me that it cost him around 900 beans a couple of years ago.
> 
> All this said I am actually in the market for a used late model Apple Pro Server. So if anyone comes across one please let me know.


mine did the same thing if i served one particular direction but not the other.discovered a burr on inside if tube,right at he end.worked it down w/dremel and no more problems. as far as bounce....i use the big U from u-serve kit about half way down string .takes out most of the bounce.


----------



## SShooter

Cliff,

Can you have Caulton contact me, i would like to know how he made his machine


----------



## Purka

SShooter said:


> Cliff,
> 
> Can you have Caulton contact me, i would like to know how he made his machine


Unfortunately Archery Forum's server got wiped out by a virus not long ago. They only had data back up to 2008, so everything past that was lost. But you could ask him here.http://www.archery-forum.com/index.php if he still gets on there .


----------



## bowtecee

You by chance have access to this sever? Link is gone


----------



## Purka

Caulton hasn't posted on Archery Forum since 28th Sept 2012. but here's the link.
http://www.archery-forum.com/forum.php


----------



## pse-pro91

I see a lot of people in this post using the Apple or moto winder, but has anyone else used the specialty archery super server? I'm absolutely in love with mine and a shop about an hour away from mine makes over 6000 sets a year and switched to it over the Apple. Any opinions?


----------



## pse-pro91

However I do understand that the $3000 price tag for the server and stretchers can be a bit much for your casual string maker


----------



## Purka

pse-pro91 said:


> I see a lot of people in this post using the Apple or moto winder, but has anyone else used the specialty archery super server? I'm absolutely in love with mine and a shop about an hour away from mine makes over 6000 sets a year and switched to it over the Apple. Any opinions?


I use one, I couldn't imagine doing it by hand again.


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## SCbowmaster

We have had one of the S.A.P. machines for over a year now and it has been a great machine. 

Works very well and have not had any issues with it at all.


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## Bow pro

Purka said:


> I use one, I couldn't imagine doing it by hand again.



Your work bench is spotless. You want to come clean mine up for me lol!!


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## dwagoner

pse-pro91 said:


> I see a lot of people in this post using the Apple or moto winder, but has anyone else used the specialty archery super server? I'm absolutely in love with mine and a shop about an hour away from mine makes over 6000 sets a year and switched to it over the Apple. Any opinions?


when your doing over 6k sets a year your gonna use something like an apple for speed, thats like over 20 sets a day....big difference is that kinda building vs someone on a much lower scale using the specialty server....


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## Tony219er

dwagoner said:


> when your doing over 6k sets a year your gonna use something like an apple for speed, thats like over 20 sets a day....big difference is that kinda building vs someone on a much lower scale using the specialty server....


I think he said they switched from the Apple to the Specialty?? I know they are very nice machines and hard to beat for the money.


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