# If a truly surprise release is "best"...........



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I may have a different view on this than some of the posters on here. I don't see using multiple releases and having a complete and total suprise release as a good thing at all. I want to have the feel and function of my release down pat so that I have confidence in it when it's needed most. I want to know the window the release will fire in. I want to know that if it doesn't, I messed up somewhere and need to figure out where. 

So for me, I have one release I always use. I have worked with this release to fine tune it to give me the results I'm looking for.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I have heard of several pros that will at least train with multiple releases all set to different speeds in order to prevent them from learning the time of one. Some will use 2-3 of the same release, others with simply swap to a completely different release model/brand.


----------



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I don't blame you. 

But, hasn't that taken the "surprise" out of it?


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Until you progress past the point of having control issues having a really nice surprise release is a awesome thing because it allows you to shoot even though you still have target panic issues. Now once you have progressed past the lessons that you need to learn then you can start working on your shot window and once you start shooting at a very high level where you aren't hardly ever missing anymore then you will want to narrow down that shot window and it is still firing as a surprise but you basically know that it is going to fire.

You absolutely do not want to try and do this when you have control issues still present in your mental approaches because they will eat you alive, so starting out with a nice surprise that is within lets say 2-7 seconds is a really nice window to start with and then as you progress and you see that you really shoot good at 3 or so seconds then you can work on getting your execution down to where it is happening around that time.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Shooting with different releases has many benefits but if you are doing it because you suck if you only use one release then you are probably changing just because you are trying to hide issues instead of learning how to get rid of them. 

I shoot with different releases when training and I use them:

1. set slower than my primary hinge so that I can work on running a smooth engine that is longer than needed.

2. set slower than my primary hinge so that I can work on shooting in the last half of my shot window.

3. Set slower than my primary hinge so that I can be reminded how awesome my primary hinge speed really is.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I don't know the exact moment, so I guess there's some built in suprise. But as a whole, it's not this magical suprise release where I have no clue the release is going to fire that people talk about a lot. I know the window and I'll still have a level, if you want to see it this way, of suprise. 

I don't need a complete and total suprise release to be able to shoot at this point. I'm not a command shooter, I'm not dealing with a form of target panic at the moment, creating a reason to need a different execution manner. Once I start my execution, it doesn't stop until the release goes off, or I have a checkpoint failure point and let down. It's just something smooth and seamless that goes for me right now.


JV NC said:


> I don't blame you.
> 
> But, hasn't that taken the "surprise" out of it?


----------



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Cool stuff, guys. Just thought it was an interesting question.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree. I'll be curious to see where things go with this topic and the comments from people. 



JV NC said:


> Cool stuff, guys. Just thought it was an interesting question.


----------



## Lcp3557 (Nov 12, 2014)

I new a pro that had a release in his bag that would not go off. I can see where this could be used.


----------



## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

Mahly said:


> I have heard of several pros that will at least train with multiple releases all set to different speeds in order to prevent them from learning the time of one. Some will use 2-3 of the same release, others with simply swap to a completely different release model/brand.


I was just about to write somthing similar. thanks for saving me the time :teeth:


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

So long as there is no anxiety with regards to whether the release will or will not fire and there is no moment where you are mentally saying "now!" then nothing else really matters. I know that when I'm shooting well my shots break within a pretty consistent window. If I go outside this window then it's time to let down and try again. If it runs long the second time then I need to evaluate whether there is an internal (technique) or external (angles/footing) factor and what I need to do to correct it.

-Grant


----------



## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

> Shooting with different releases has many benefits but if you are doing it because you suck if you only use one release then you are probably changing just because you are trying to hide issues instead of learning how to get rid of them.


Shawn speaks the truth here, as usual, fellers... I'm living proof LOL. In fact, I've found if I'm beginning to "learn" when my release goes off, there's starting to be a breakdown in what I'm doing. Don't ask me why I know this with such certainty. For me, the actual release has to be "hidden" from me and therefore as complete a surprise as I can have it be. I concur with there being a range, but it has to remain a pretty decent range. If my mind is able to pinpoint when the hinge will go off even to a moderate level of accuracy, I'm screwed.

Now, I also have terrible, incurable target panic, so I need something as simple and far removed from commanding-a-release as I can physically do (such as just pulling until she goes 'snap')..... 

So, I've found if I suck on one of my releases, I tend to suck on all of them. My Stan Element is a mild exception, since it's what I use to verify form issues with getting a good rotation without paying attention to a "rotate" concept. That said, I do have spare releases that I switch between, but I have them setup very close to the same...

LS


----------



## PWOODNC (Mar 6, 2005)

I think I read where Randy Ulmer had several of the same releases with different settings. I believe he would sometimes shoot competitions like that. Said he wanted to keep himself honest and did not want to know when the release was going to fire.

He may be the exception rather than the norm, but he was and still is a very good shot.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here's a great video by Reo that talks about having a surprise release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpI1KyQcrpQ


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

unclejane said:


> Shawn speaks the truth here, as usual, fellers... I'm living proof LOL. In fact, I've found if I'm beginning to "learn" when my release goes off, there's starting to be a breakdown in what I'm doing. Don't ask me why I know this with such certainty. For me, the actual release has to be "hidden" from me and therefore as complete a surprise as I can have it be. I concur with there being a range, but it has to remain a pretty decent range. If my mind is able to pinpoint when the hinge will go off even to a moderate level of accuracy, I'm screwed.
> 
> Now, I also have terrible, incurable target panic, so I need something as simple and far removed from commanding-a-release as I can physically do (such as just pulling until she goes 'snap').....
> 
> ...


Please take this in the helpful manner it's intended:
I don't think PBT is actually solving anything for you. I think you are simply command shooting using muscles which aren't subtle enough to notice you are doing it.

There are ways of eliminating the urge to command shoot but like any mental conditioning they take time, effort and a fundamental shift in how you think during the shot.

-Grant


----------



## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

PWOODNC said:


> I think I read where Randy Ulmer had several of the same releases with different settings. I believe he would sometimes shoot competitions like that. Said he wanted to keep himself honest and did not want to know when the release was going to fire.
> 
> He may be the exception rather than the norm, but he was and still is a very good shot.


You are correct.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

JV NC said:


> If a truly surprise release is best, would it be optimal to compete with 2-3 releases (or, 2-3 of the same release...set to fire at different levels of manipulation) ?
> 
> I don't really think anyone would do that. But, I can see it being good practice. Do you (practice this way)? What would deter you from it?


Leading up to.... I competed the same index release for years, no issues, and still use it for hunting. I've used my thumb release for some years now, no issues. I've heard of two Pros who carried a extra hinge release, identical brand/model. One was the primary release and the other set colder to reinforce back tension or whatever. 

And these hinge and back tension discussions are getting really old.....


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as amatter of fact there are a few pros, who do exactly that. three or four of the same releases in their pouch, set to different engagements, so their release execution does not know when the shot will break. what this does, has more to do with keeping the execution true, than producing a "surprise release". if your shot execution is trained correctly, it follows through correctly on a shot, whether you know when it's coming , or not..


----------



## Philhair (Apr 7, 2013)

I run two identical releases set at different speeds. Can shoot either well if I catch myself getting lazy or out of rhythm I'll switch. I don't fight trigger panic but I have. This is more about fine tuning than addressing a catastrophic issue


----------



## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Please take this in the helpful manner it's intended:
> I don't think PBT is actually solving anything for you. I think you are simply command shooting using muscles which aren't subtle enough to notice you are doing it.


Well, I'm forced to disagree. In fact, I just got back home from shooting for 1 1/2 hours using the PBT method at our local club's Tues. night get together. I don't recall firing a single shot the entire time; all I did was pull for an hour and a half. Yeah it was a measly 15 yards but I left the gold on a vegas 3 spot only twice all evening.
Based on how I've shot in the past before adopting PBT, I think the method is doing plenty for me LOL.


> There are ways of eliminating the urge to command shoot but like any mental conditioning they take time, effort and a fundamental shift in how you think during the shot.
> -Grant


That's exactly what the PBT method does for those for whom it works well. My finding, anyway.

LS


----------



## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

Is a surprise release the best thing to strive for or is it simply a stop along the way. At first when I started shooting with dynamic back tension, I would have numerous surprise releases with my thumb release. Then it began to fade and I began knowing within a window of time when the release would go off and it was mostly never a surprise. Scores got better as I progressed and rarely had any real surprise releases. Same thing happened when I went to the hinge release. 

Perhaps everyone has to learn the surprise release so they can truly understand how each of the parts of shooting have to go together. The surprise release teaches us how to let go of target panic, it makes you mentally tough, you learn how to hold on target and reduce your float, you learn how to trust your shot, you learn exactly what pressures need to be applied through your back, through your bow arm on the shot and how they should feel on the followthrough. As these lessons get learned and become more second nature, the surprise shot is no longer the best or even necessary any longer. 

Essentially, we use the surprise shot as a stepping stone on the way to a higher level of mastery. Or maybe I'm just at the point where I think that's the last stop and in reality I have to come full circle back to complete surprise releases to actually achieve the highest level?


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

not only time to allow the correction to take it's hold, but the right method, or drill(s) for the correction , too. the hard part, is that if it is not learned in the fundamental stages of learning, you actually have a double job, in retraining your shot, first to cancel the "wrong thought process that is making the problem, and then, to teach the shot the right way. sometimes, if that "wrong thought process" is not eliminated, before teaching the right way, the correction only serves to create an alternate choice, for the shot to run on, thus making confusion, rather than clear guidance.


----------



## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

If the shooter is thinking about when the shot should break they are not focusing on the process. I can feel the release when it is about to break but if I perceverate upon this feeling I know I am not focusing on executing the shot. Once I get to anchor I just aim and pull and inevitably the focus on aiming overrides (or I have learned to ignore the release) the feeling of imminent break and the shot is a surprise.


----------



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

^^I don't care if you did misspell it......."perseverate" is a cool word!


----------



## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

I equate the shot breaking as to tying an old shoe lace.

As you pull on the lace to get it tight your pulling pulling pulling - snap. You know it's gonna snap, you don't kow the exact time but a close idea it's fixing to go. Its a surprise, but intentional.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It was funny watching the vegas final shoot down because during the final three shots when some guys had just lost their chance at 55,000 dollars and they were just shooting for 3rd place they shot awesome but levi and the kid who both still had a chance at the win only shot one of the x's out of their 6 total shots.

I dream about being in that position and what I would do to get rid of the arrow smoothly, right now I am shooting so strongly and my executions are so similar I can't help but know when the shot is going to break but that is by myself on the practice range with no pressure. I would love to know what levi was thinking as he shot those three shots because he finds himself in shoot downs on a regular basis. I can only imagine because I simply have never been in his shoes, all I know is that this last summer when I had my little 2000 dollar shots in paris texas at the asa and in the classic I chose to embrace the experience and savor every moment. I truly didn't care if I nailed the 12 ring on either one of the two shots, I was so proud of the fact that I had had a awesome weekend that earning the chance to shoot a shot to win or place was victory to me. On both of those shots I had only one goal and that was to run a smooth engine and send a quality shot to the target.

I even did a practice float on my shot at the asa classic, it was a 40yd type shot and I got to go right after the guy I was trying to beat and he struggled with his nerves so I felt great but I was standing there wondering what my float was going to look like once I got to full draw so I decided that when it was my turn to shoot I was going to set my sight and then just do a study my float shot and let down. It worked perfect because I came to anchor and settled in on the spot and I floated inside the 12 ring for a good 5 or so seconds and I let down and took a few breaths and reminded myself to run a smooth engine and I made the shot. The target ended up being a 39 yd shot and I shot out the top about a 1/8 inch or so but to me it was perfect.

Those two shots pretty much were the icing on the cake of my summer, I missed both of them by 1/8 inch but I made the shots that I wanted to make and for me that was worth all the training and dreaming of becoming a strong shooter. That is why I want to know what was going on in levi's mind as he took those three last shots because he already has almost 50 national titles to his name, I have a feeling that what got him in trouble is that winning on the 3d side is more of what he is known for and winning a big vegas indoor is something he doesn't feel as comfortable doing and he let these thoughts of putting a vegas notch in his belt get to him.


----------



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Let's say someone was just learning the hinge (any hinge). Would it benefit him to have two of the same model......set to fire at different degrees of manipulation.....and to switch back and forth (never knowing which he had)?

Or, is this an advanced practice method?


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I feel that when you are first learning it would be better to stick with one hinge. When you first start most every shot is a surprise because you aren't familiar with the release yet. The unfamiliarity is also why I would suggest just using one hinge. You need to get the basics and the understanding of how to set up and execute with a hinge down to begin with. 

With a hinge release, the tiniest of adjustments on it to really fine tune when the shot will break can make a world of difference in the experience and scoring while using the release.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't think it is advanced, it is just smart training.

Why?

Because as you progress you are going to have moments where something feel absolutely perfect, the perfect speed or the perfect firing method etc. So that hinge is going to be the one that you want to compete with and the one that you trust to help you shoot really good. But the other hinge is the more important one because it is set up slightly differently more than likely slower and that hinge is the one that will be harder to produce smooth rotation because it requires a longer effort and by training with it right along with your dominant hinge you are going to learn a nice smooth engine that fires both of them perfectly. 

So yeah, I train with a couple hinges and they are set differently and they compliment each other.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh yeah, I forgot something. I don't like making claims that one hinge is better than another one because I really do believe that a hinge is just a hinge, but I have a problem with what I just said. I do running totals and many of you have heard me talk about them on many occasions and when you lay out lets say 3 hinges and pick one of them up and you make it lets say 30 shots without missing a x and then you pick up another one and you shoot 40 x's and then you miss and then you pick up the next one and you shoot 400 x's in a row with it don't you have to stop and think a minute that maybe there is something about that hinge that sets it apart from the other ones. Especially when this happens many times, I think in the last year I have had 6 weeks like this one where I simply didn't miss once I picked up that hinge. I have some hinges that I really like but they just don't produce the running totals that the one does, for me that is why it is my dominant hinge and one of my other ones is the slightly slower one that I train with.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

What is it about that one hinge that you think sets it apart? The adjustment of it? The feel of it in your hand, if it's a different brand/model of hinge?


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think as you are learning and developing your execution, one setting is mandatory. the learning curve requires a certain amount of consistency that teaches a good rotation. when that consistency doesn't exist, you don't get the basis of confidence you need to learn to execute well. once the execution is well established and your shot runs totally confidently in all respects, then and only then, and only if notice some anticipation, should you try differing the engagement depth on a couple or few releases. that execution has to be at the point where differing speeds don't affect the mental aspect of your execution before doing that.


----------



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Padgett said:


> I don't think it is advanced, it is just smart training.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Thanks.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For me in the beginning when I sucked I had one hinge that I could actually shoot on a regular basis and get rid of the arrow without suffering, I thought it would be my best hinge forever and one week I had a breakthrough and I came up with my Hinge Setup Routine. I took a hinge that I hated that gave me sore fingers and blisters and I did my hinge setup routine to it and holy crap it was awesome, for the first time ever I was gripping and drawing and coming to anchor correctly and within 15 minutes I had my new dominant hinge. I shot with that stan micro III for a good year and then I got my first longhorn pro brass and I did the hinge setup routine with it and it took a week or so because it doesn't have micro adjust and finally I found a speed that allowed it to take over as my number one hinge. I then got a bunch of free ones from scott and tru ball from the backspin to the ht pro brass to the honey badger to the inside out x and each one of them has proven to be a solid choice and found their way to the top hinge in the rotation. My biggest problem with the stinking longhorn and the backspin is that they don't have micro adjust and it put the tru ball hinges on top of my list for a long time but then I figured out how to micro adjust a longhorn with a dial caliper down to the thousandth of a inch or less and now it is back on top.

For some reason I just shoot slightly higher running x totals with the longhorn, yeah I love the feel of it in my hand more than the others but it is the running totals that get into the hundreds of x's in a row that keep me shooting it. When I recommend releases to new shooters I lean towards the tru ball ht hinges because of the micro adjust, lately I have recommended the longhorns because they are 89 bucks on lancasters and that is just a sweet deal.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree that setting them fast in the beginning is a risk and it causes its own list of negatives but setting a hinge really slow also causes a list of negatives, one thing i will say is that slow or fast doesn't matter if you are pulling the hinge with equal tension on all your fingers.

Drawing the bow with the thumb peg and index finger only and then trying to get the other fingers on the hinge is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY FREAKING BAD. So pick your method either starting slow and working your way faster or starting fast and working your way slower and you are good to go but do it with all your finger equally when drawing. This is what my hinge setup routine does for you for either method.


----------

