# How to tell if your right tear indicates a weak or stiff spine



## Jabwa

I have read many posts on AT indicating that a right tear is stiff and many more indicating that a right tear means weak. This depends on the individual archer, probably because of some form issue, although I can't confirm this (some things remain a mystery!). How can you tell what a right tear means for you? Get carbon arrows of the same diameter, one very stiff for your bow, one very weak for your bow. The stiff one can be 0.300 spine and cut as short as possible. The weak one can be 0.500 and cut 3 inches long. Shoot them through paper at 5 yards. If you have your centershot and nock point set correctly, have reasonably repeatable form, and your bow is properly timed, one should tear nock left and the other should tear nock right. This has been the case at least for numerous archers who have shot through my paper tuner.


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## Marcus

Jabwa said:


> I have read many posts on AT indicating that a right tear is stiff and many more indicating that a right tear means weak. This depends on the individual archer, probably because of some form issue, although I can't confirm this (some things remain a mystery!). How can you tell what a right tear means for you? Get carbon arrows of the same diameter, one very stiff for your bow, one very weak for your bow. The stiff one can be 0.300 spine and cut as short as possible. The weak one can be 0.500 and cut 3 inches long. Shoot them through paper at 5 yards. If you have your centershot and nock point set correctly, have reasonably repeatable form, and your bow is properly timed, one should tear nock left and the other should tear nock right. This has been the case at least for numerous archers who have shot through my paper tuner.


I have shot arrows 7 sizes too weak and 3 sizes too stiff and gotten bullet holes. Easy to repeat. 
You don't get left and right tears when using a release aid with a Dloop because there is no left-right flex in the arrow. 
This is rubbish left over from the finger shooting days and has no bearing on compound-release shooting.


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## Jorge Oliveira

Based on Marcus experiences, how would one find the right spined arrow (besides tables/programs)?


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## dtrkyman

Marcus said:


> I have shot arrows 7 sizes too weak and 3 sizes too stiff and gotten bullet holes. Easy to repeat.
> You don't get left and right tears when using a release aid with a Dloop because there is no left-right flex in the arrow.
> This is rubbish left over from the finger shooting days and has no bearing on compound-release shooting.


bs i shoot a loop and a release and had wicked left tears with underspined and over spined arrows it came from idler wheel lean in my case so you can get left or right tears.


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## Marcus

dtrkyman
No you are saying your left right tears come from your idler wheel lean? Perhaps you should fix that before mouthing off. 

Jorge
That's what I asked James Park when he first showed me the experiment. I was amazed I can tell you. He laughed and said "Whatever clears the launcher". I now shoot as stiff an arrow as I can get and my scores improved drastically. 
I was getting bullet holes with 540 Navs and 500 Triples and changed to 300 Triples and still got bullet holes, but my scores improved 40 points on a FITA.


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## JAVI

Marcus, I congratulate you and Mr. Parks. It seems you are the fortunate two who have achieved the perfect grip and can shoot any arrow without paradox. 

I too can shoot several differing spined arrows through paper and achieve a bullet hole, but sadly I have to change my grip slightly each time in order to do so. However, once I find the grip for that arrow it is repeatable; but I still pale in light of the level of “Gripdom” y’all have achieved…


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## Hollowpoint

*Javi, wheres the laughin' Mouse?*

"but I still pale in light of the level of “Gripdom” y’all have achieved…"
That right there is FUNNY!!


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## [email protected]

> You don't get left and right tears when using a release aid with a Dloop because there is no left-right flex in the arrow.


I'd have to say this statement is not entirely correct. Not all releases function in the same manner. There are caliper, half-caliper, hook, and post styles, to name a few. Each type is going to cause a very different string reaction upon release.

Caliper and half-caliper style releases work without introducing left or right string motion. A caliper has two moving jaws that lets the string slip between them. A half-caliper (like the TrueBall Talon head) has one moving jaw. 

http://www.truball.com/Pages/3deluxetornado.html
http://www.truball.com/Pages/3xtreme.html

Basically, when a caliper or half-caliper release triggers, the d-loop/string moves straight forward out of the jaws without left/right bias being imparted to the string. 

The same cannot be said of hook and post style releases. Examples of this style release would be the Carter Rev3 and the Carter Colby Spike.

http://www.carterenterprises.com/products/atension.htm
http://www.carterenterprises.com/pdf/col2spikeinst.pdf

When a hook or post style release triggers, the d-loop rolls off the release jaw in much the same manner as a string rolling off fingers. The roll, depending on how pronounced it is, will cause left/right string oscilliation just like fingers. While the effect is not as dramatic as with fingers, it still occurs.

I recently tuned a bow with Barnsdale TriStars and shoot-thru cables. Using a TruBall Pinky Extreme (half-caliper), I was able to get bullet holes through paper with Gold Tip Ultra Lite Pro 400, 500 and 600 series shafts. I shot the GTs without fletching to eliminate the possibility of clearance problems. I also shot through paper at multiple distances to eliminate the possibility that I was just hitting a "straight" node in the shaft oscillation. When I switched to a Carter Rev3, the ULP600 had a 1/2" left tear, the ULP500 had a 1/4" left tear, and the ULP400 shot a bullet hole. 

And no, I wasn't introducing torque into the system using the Rev3. With the shoot through, you can visually see if you are apply torque via your grip. At least I can with the setup described above.


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## Marcus

That's why we have a thing called 'practise' and 'training' Javi, so we can work on the little things in our form costing us points. 
There are many points remaining to 1440, I could either spend my life wondering about whether my grip is costing me points, or I can go out and make sure it doesn't. 

Interesting PSI. I have fired many different types of releases and get the same results. 

Guess what this thread has shown is that:
Grip effects paper tune
Cam lean effects paper tune
Dloop material effects paper tune
Release head type effects paper tune

However I have never seen spine on a compound effect paper tune. 

The left right paradox that may be applied using a Dloop and release is so minor that it will not show up as a size difference in spine. If you are getting a 1-2" left or right tear don't waste your money on new arrows. 



JAVI said:


> Marcus, I congratulate you and Mr. Parks. It seems you are the fortunate two who have achieved the perfect grip and can shoot any arrow without paradox.
> 
> I too can shoot several differing spined arrows through paper and achieve a bullet hole, but sadly I have to change my grip slightly each time in order to do so. However, once I find the grip for that arrow it is repeatable; but I still pale in light of the level of “Gripdom” y’all have achieved…


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## Jorge Oliveira

Just to mess things a bit more:

Some time ago I've posted that my carbons would group together at 20 yds (spine 400 and 340) but alums would group to the left (spine 365).

Lenght was a bit different, but even so effective spine (as pe OnTarget) was different.

And I shoot fingers with a compound, and all my test (limited, I admit), shows very little horizontal arrow flex...


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## shaun748

I must agree with one thing MARCUS said and that is that most all of us(me included) could spend more time practicing form than sitting in the shop getting a dead-on mico millimeter perfect tune, but regarding spine I kinda differ.

I can't say that any spine would work with a straight launch, now you could shoot very stiff and be fine, shoot an arrow spined for a 35LB bow and I promise it will go crazy..

any arrow WILL make a bullet hole at some point in it's flight with fletching even if it is oscillatting because at some point it will be in mid-flex and correcting it self with fletching(which is why you must paper tune from various distances)..

now if you think your getting perfect straight launch/flight then I must challenge you to shoot beyong 30 yards with your BARE-SHAFT to verify..If you are even slightly off in tune/spine this will magnify any planning and will let you know immediatley if it is really a straight launch since the bareshaft will not have fletching to correct any spine/flight issues.

I do believe you have a lot more more leeway with spine if you only shoot field points.. If you never had to shoot a medium/ large broadhead you could "almost" get away with a shooting wet noodle since the field point will allow any oscillations without redirecting an arrow..

I shoot fingers so unfortunatley the spine issue is very important for me compared to you guys, but I notice even a 1/4 differance in arrow length..

just to show almost perfect flight here is a pic of my 37 yard shots, thru paper with a Bare-shaft, shot from a barebow with finger release. this is about as straight ahead as can be expected for non-compepetive finger shooter(such as myself). when my arrow was only 1/4 inch longer I was getting weak tears, so i just kept cutting 1/8 inch off at a time till it tuned for my max poundage.


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## Marcus

I agree that spine is vital with fingers and bareshaft and paper tuning both work very well when tuning with fingers regardless of compound or recurve ad I think these 2 methods are excellent in that fashion.


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## J.W. Shooter

So what you guys are saying is that when I paper-tuned my bow yesterday, it was all wrong! I kept getting a low-right tear! We cut 1" off of the arrow and it got better! We reduced the point weight 25 grns. and it shot a bullet-hole! So you're trying to tell me that it's my form! Funny it does the same thing every time! It must be cause I'm shooting 322 fps. out of a Black Mamba! Before any of you scream amature, you better check the Vegas scores!


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## Jabwa

Marcus, you certainly are a brash young man! If you will read this carefully perhaps you can explain where I went wrong. 

Some time ago I built a spine tester. Then I took a dozen of my used arrows which I had been shooting and tested their spine. They were all the same brand and very nearly identical in all respects: weight, point weight, fletches, nocks, straightness. I checked them for spine, and found differences. I then grouped them into 3 groups: weak, stiff, and in between. 

Next, I shot them indoors at 20 yards (I do most of this kind of obsessive/compulsive crap during the winter when there is nothing much else to do). I kept track of the left/ right hits and over a period of time, I found that the stiffer arrows grouped more to the right while the weaker arrows grouped more to the left. The "correctly" spined arrows grouped in between. Now for me, a weak arrow makes a right tear through paper, while a stiff arrow tears nock left. 

Now I suppose the question is, is this due to spine differences, or some aspect of form? I don't really care. I know that by changing to arrows of a different spine, I can get a bullet hole every time and I feel this provides me with the most forgiving setup possible.

One more short example: I was playing yesterday with my 3D bow, trying to get some Cheetah 3D 525's to bullet hole. I began cutting, and at 28" shaft length, bingo! They bullet holed at every draw weight I tried between 52 and 56#. I then adjusted my point weight to get the appropriate speed/FOC/arrow weight to meet accuracy and IBO requirements. THEN JUST FOR FUN, I SHOT A CHEETAH 3D 400 THROUGH PAPER. GUESS WHAT? A 3 INCH LEFT TEAR!!! Is this due to arrow spine? It certainly seems that way to me, but Marcus, perhaps you have another explanation? 

By the way, paper tears are not usually due to the paradox of the arrow, but due to the nock not being in line with the point as the arrow goes through the paper.


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## Jabwa

One other point as long as we are quoting authorities on the subject. Bob Ragsdaleoften says something to the effect that "Nothing you can do will improve your shooting more than choosing the correct spined arrow." There is very little Bob has said that I even question let alone disagree with!


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## [email protected]

Jabwa,

Do you shoot right or left handed?


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## Jabwa

Right handed and so does my wife. Her paper tears are opposite of mine, but also repeatable ad infinitum.


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## Jorge Oliveira

Food for thought

It makes sense that with a bow that is pefectly center aligned and using a loop release one can shoot under or over spined arrows without any right or left movement, just vertical ones (no hand torque).

But then, what's a perfectly center aligned bow? It is not a bow in which the rest is in the same plane of the string (bye, laser tool :teeth: ). 

One may have cam lean, limb torsion, etc, as factors that will apply a side force to the arrow nock.
These forces may be to the right or to the left, no way to know in advance.

So I'm proposing this hypothesis: A bow shot by a good shooter and using a loop release is perfectly center aligned if, and only if, it can shoot under or over spined arrows to the same vertical line.


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## Jabwa

I propose another test, Jorge. Place an arrow shaft in a perfect vertical position in a stamping machine or hydraulic press of some sort. Now gradually increase the pressure until the arrow bends. Which way did it bend? Will all similar arrows bend in the same direction or will it be random? Will all arrows be lined up perfectly in the press, no matter how accurately we try to line them up? The point is, the arrow must bend (well, theoretically it could be crushed, but I am betting this won't happen) so what determines which way it bends?

Seems to me the spine of an arrow shaft acts as a kind of shock absorber. You need just the right amount. A probably ridiculous analogy would be a car with weak shocks. The car will bounce all over the road, right? However, if the shocks are too stiff, the ride will knock your teeth out! Which would you prefer? Well, if you don't like car wrecks, I would prefer the shocks be too stiff rather than too weak. Probably the same with an arrow, although the correct spine (or shock absorber) will provide a much smoother ride for either the car or the arrow. As I said, probably ridiculous. Just the ramblings of an old obsessive/compulsive archer.


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## Marcus

I would have to watch you shoot to answer that question. What release aid are you using?

Just as how would you explain me getting bullet holes through paper with 720, 670, 620, 570 and 470 ACE's all shot from the same bow? Also how is it that my Dad gets a soft tear with 2312's from his Ovation but when I shoot his bow with the same arrow and release aid I get bullet holes, and the can do the same with a 2314 and a 610 Nav?


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## Nexus6

I had always said paper tuning was great for Pro Shops to show how good they tuned a bow and charge $80 an hour (15 min @$20). I got concerned when a friend of mine wanted to "check out our bows on the paper". Neither his Allegence nor my Black Knight showed anything but a tear right. And according to the theory of paper tuning, we tried everything to correct it EXCEPT change out arrows because it says we had too stiff a spine.

I called Carbon Express and talked to a tech. He asked if they grouped ok and I said yes. He said he would just keep shooting them. He also said that he had gone to a PSE clinic and learned that paper tuning was not worth anything nowadays. He said the best tuning would be a "SUPER TUNE". I found that method on Archery Focus Magazines past issues and I think I would have more faith in it. Oh and just so this has some credit, George Chapman was teaching the clinic.


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## Jorge Oliveira

*Jabwa*

Your point is a valid one.

ONE arrow is not identical to another. But if one shots many arrows, the average is quite likelly representative.

And, besides, ONE arrow tearing paper is not representative also! 

And, BTW, I'm not advocating the use of overspined arrows - just a way to make sure the center shot is true.


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## Jorge Oliveira

*Marcus*

Under my hypothesis, your father's center shot is off...

To his shooting style, of course. :smile:


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## JAVI

Marcus said:


> I would have to watch you shoot to answer that question. What release aid are you using?
> 
> Just as how would you explain me getting bullet holes through paper with 720, 670, 620, 570 and 470 ACE's all shot from the same bow? Also how is it that my Dad gets a soft tear with 2312's from his Ovation but when I shoot his bow with the same arrow and release aid I get bullet holes, and the can do the same with a 2314 and a 610 Nav?


Gripology 101....  

So what you're saying Marcus is that with a release aid the arrow does not bend at all.... I do believe that is contrary to the results of many highspeed video frames....


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## Jabwa

As for why you get bullet holes with all those arrows (apparently very weak to very stiff) I would have to know how far away from the paper you were standing, whether the arrow was perpendicular to the string with what kind of cam, stiffness of the rest spring tension, how far out from the riser the rest was set.

As for your question, somehow you believe one release aid will cause stiff and weak arrows to both bullet hole, but another release aid will cause differences between the two? So the answer might be for me to get rid of my Carter Insatiables?


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## Marcus

Jorge
He tried many different centreshots. Couldn't fix it. Problem was bow torque. 

Javi
Yes slow motion video shows up and down flex, with almost none left to right. 
But hey, the Easton manual must be right huh? 

No Jabwa, you are jumping to strange conclusions again. Depending on your setup you may get what looks like a weak or stiff arrow, however my bet is that you are imparting torque somewhere in the setup, possibly with the say you are holding your release on the string etc. With my Dad's bow I tried it with mine and his release aids. 

BTW my tests were done with an Insatiable, Insatiable 2, Just Cuz, Zenith Comfort 3D, Atension, Target 4 and a Bighorn. All used a stiff D loop however. 

I'll make this simple then. Just because you are getting a left or right tear on a compound bow does not mean your arrow spine is wrong. Chances are the result is something else. 
Always get someone else to shoot it to check (prefer someone better than you)
Always try different release aids (I don't think it makes that much different but worth it
Good bow hand is VITAL (so practise more Javi  )


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## JAVI

Ok Marcus…

Here is what I find relative to using paper to determine the differing spine of arrows.

I can with a few test shots maneuver my grip so that I can shoot a bullet hole with a weak or stiffly spined arrow or even a poor center shot. What I have not been able to learn is how to compensate for varying nock pinch… have you taken that course yet?

If you can shoot a bullet hole with a bow, it means that your grip is either compensating with torque for the center shot or the center shot is set correctly. Once you can repeat the bullet hole then you can use paper to determine the correct spine. I rarely use paper; preferring bare shaft testing for my own use. 

And Marcus most of the HS video is shot from the side so it is only likely to show vertical flexing; I have seen a bit taken from the front and rear of the bow which clearly showed horizontal flexing as well.


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## Marcus

JAVI said:


> I can with a few test shots maneuver my grip so that I can shoot a bullet hole with a weak or stiffly spined arrow or even a poor center shot. What I have not been able to learn is how to compensate for varying nock pinch… have you taken that course yet?


So you admit is that with the correct grip you get what I am saying you will get. Thanks Javi. 
With the correct grip you get bullet holes. Simple. 
Yes I have played around with nock pinch both on the string and with the string pinching the nock. Again not an issue if you the correct size string materials and a Dloop with soft nocking points above and below the arrow. 
I have shot my whole set of X10's through paper and each produced the same result. 
Or are you referring to something different?



> If you can shoot a bullet hole with a bow, it means that your grip is either compensating with torque for the center shot or the center shot is set correctly. Once you can repeat the bullet hole then you can use paper to determine the correct spine. I rarely use paper; preferring bare shaft testing for my own use.


So now you are changing what you are saying. In the above you said that with the correct hand placement you get a bullet hole regardless of spine or centreshot. Now you are saying that with the correct grip you can use the paper to adjust spine. Can't have it both ways.
Personally I would rather a grip that gives perfect arrow flight regardless of centreshot. 
Oh and have you played around with bows such as the PSE Scorpion where if you torque the bow, even twist it, you get bullet holes regardless of position? It's very cool. It's dependent on the rest position in relation to the grip. Same concept as using your sight extension length to cancel torque. The Hoyts wouldn't do it (the UltraElite wasn't bad) but the Ovation and Scorpion would. I have not tried the Bowtech yet. 

Even you must admit Javi that there are so many reasons why you do and don't get tears from paper that it is a poor test. You simply can not say "If tear = X then spine = Y". Just simply too many variables and reasons involved. 



> And Marcus most of the HS video is shot from the side so it is only likely to show vertical flexing; I have seen a bit taken from the front and rear of the bow which clearly showed horizontal flexing as well.


Yes I have seen side and front on HS video and the left-right was next to zero. This was using a rope release as well.


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## Jabwa

Okay, I'll respond one more time. So now I am applying torque to my bow, and this causes a left tear with a stiff arrow and a bullet hole with a weak one. How about if we say the left tear was the result of an arrow "acting" as though it were stiff?

Javi, I think we had better give up and go back to archery school. Marcus is spewing out knowledge faster than I can keep up!


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## Spotshooter2

Ok Marcus , according to you why should we worry about spine , it isnt important . I will set you up a bow at 70 pounds at 30 inch draw length . Using 500 spine arrows at full length you shoot it and tell me it wont show a weak spine, wait a minute till I get clear of the shrapnel


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## Casey Hatley

wow "i've never seen spine on a compound effect paper tune"......... yeah i bet you do "practise" a whole lot


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## Casey Hatley

Marcus said:


> Jorge
> He tried many different centreshots. Couldn't fix it. Problem was bow torque.
> 
> Javi
> Yes slow motion video shows up and down flex, with almost none left to right.
> But hey, the Easton manual must be right huh?
> 
> No Jabwa, you are jumping to strange conclusions again. Depending on your setup you may get what looks like a weak or stiff arrow, however my bet is that you are imparting torque somewhere in the setup, possibly with the say you are holding your release on the string etc. With my Dad's bow I tried it with mine and his release aids.
> 
> BTW my tests were done with an Insatiable, Insatiable 2, Just Cuz, Zenith Comfort 3D, Atension, Target 4 and a Bighorn. All used a stiff D loop however.
> 
> I'll make this simple then. Just because you are getting a left or right tear on a compound bow does not mean your arrow spine is wrong. Chances are the result is something else.
> Always get someone else to shoot it to check (prefer someone better than you)
> Always try different release aids (I don't think it makes that much different but worth it
> Good bow hand is VITAL (so practise more Javi  )



wow "i've never seen spine on a compound effect paper tune"......... yeah i bet you do "practise" a whole lot


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## bow-guy

Wow, this thread is a blast from the past.......:wink:


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