# OLd School vs New



## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

Hi there Mr Stover , some of my very best scores were also shot with a 2300 pearson , great bow , had mine at 63#s shooting 2216s @ 169 fps when I was shooting barebow bowhunter , my very best score fingers / pins was shot with a Jennings T-Star 299/52Xs , my scores now are much worse than with the older bows , has everything to do with how far I have deteriorated as a shooter and nothing to do with the difference in equipment ,now I am shooting a Hoyt Vantage X8 , 50#s & 2213s , when I make a shot with this bow that isnt affected by TP , it is an X , so the accuracy is deffinately there with this new bow , you have more room to tune the rest/arrow set up with todays risers , I have a short 28" DL , the X8 is 41" ATA - 8 " BH , so finger pinch isnt an issue for me , on the flip side of the coin there are some new bows out there that get back to the type of finger shooting bow that you are used to from yesteryear , Bansdale makes a heck of a good bow that is available with round wheels , Hoyt still makes the Montega I think , not real sure on the specs for that bow but ATA is 45"+ and a huge BH , that bow is available with Hoyts wheel & 1/2 , the people shooting them that I know absolutely love them , Martin has a bow or 2 that would fit nicely in here as well , the bows like my X8 or my Bowtech Constitutions have a very firm/ hard backwall , I have come to like that better than the soft wall in the round wheel bows , several on here wouldnt have a hard wall bow , nothing wrong with either of them , just boils down to personal prefferance ..... well , enough rambling on my part , WELCOME BACK !!!!!!!!! , and hope yer back to shooting 300s soon if you havent already got there :thumbs_up


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

ia bhtr 
Thanks for the suggestions, but I think I'll wait a little while on purchasing a new bow. I have three 2300s that are in great shape. As for the road back to 300s, I'm sure it will be a long one. I'm scared to keep score right now. Maybe I'll set a goal for myself then reward with new equipment when I reach that goal.
As one "Old Schooler" to another, why do you think that target archery scores have not improved in the last 20 years?

Thanx
KStover


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

there are some extremely good finger guys around , but with less people shooting fingers = less good finger shooters , another part of the answer is probably 2 fold , 1st off most of the really good finger shooters from back then that are still going are shooting a hook , and you know as well as I that the older bows properly tuned would shoot into the same arrow hole just as well as todays bows will , just had to be a little more precise with the tuning , with todays new shooters just getting into shooting , they can shoot much better , much faster shooting a release , and that is the direction pro shops are pushing them , and most of them never learn the proper way of shooting a bow that finger shooting will teach you , if you want to be ultra competetive that is , altho I will say that the short time I shot a release , I did learn quite a bit from the release that I didnt know when shooting fingers o , and most people that are getting into this sport that want to be ultra competetive see the release as a much more accurate way of shooting , so that is the direction that they head ...... unless you go to a pro shop that has an older shooter running the shop , its a good bet that he isnt skilled enough in the art of finger shooting to help a finger flinger get to the next level , anyways there is some more drivel from me  , like I said GOOD LUCK , Dan


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Finger shooting isn't the "invogue" thing to do anymore. Little money, no prestige and notoriety. If you want your fifteen minutes of fame then the hook is the way to go..... I personally could care less, I'm a finger shooter and that's that. 
There are some really good finger shooters around, just not in great numbers... The 2300 Pearson is one heck of a bow for fingers.


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree, less finger shooters = less competition, but non of the target archery classes are showing any improvement. Free style has grown but the winning scores have not improved in 20 years.
Most sports become more competitive over time. Performance improvements are made year after year, but archery seems to be the same as it was. Seems strange to me, but what the hay. All I have to do is get back to the level that I used to be at to be competitive. (easier said than done). I figured that I’d have to shoot a lot better than I ever had to be able to win anything, but that’s just not the case.

Thanx
KStover


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

''something from a science fiction movie'' is exactly how i described them. 20 years ago i knew a guy named pat murphy that shot for pearson and shot scores very similar to yours . i have a hoyt provantage [for sale] and a merlin supernova that i like a lot . shoot well and have fun .


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

Sometimes looks can be deceiving too. I'm sure I'm just strange, but I never shot the "traditional" finger shooting bows well. My best indoor NFAA score was a 300/45 shot with a PSE G-force at 72# shooting 2413's at 285 fps. It was actually my hunting/3D rig. I never could shoot any other bow like I could that one. It was also the only bow I shot a 300 with, and I did it regularly.

Now I'm shooting the Commander, and I really think it will be a 300 bow again. With the Connie I was shooting I could get 295/296, and every now and again hit 298, but couldn't get over the hump. I've only been able to shoot the Commander a hand full of times and hit 297 last weekend.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all this rambling is; before you write the new funky looking bows off shoot a few of them. They might surprise you.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

You guys talking about "old school" are kind of amusing. If you want real deal shoot a recurve! And, for the ultimate challenge try barebow recurve. (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## Wyoelkhunter (Jul 31, 2008)

*a similar story*

I like you came back to finger shooting a compound after a long layoff. I'm 60 now. I pulled my old finger bow, an Oregon Deschutes, out of mothballs and immediately ran into trouble finding accessories. No one stocks finger stuff, or even seems to know anything about shooting fingers. The young "pros" looked at me like I was some kind of dinosaur and told me my Oregon which was top of the line in the past was an antique (like me) or a collectors item. I finally rounded up what I needed and got to shooting. After a while I felt the old magic returning and started to enjoy myself. Then I went elk hunting in rugged country. The Oregon became heavier and more awkward than I remembered. Then my free flyte rest (one of the few options remaining) fell to pieces. I spent two days of my hunt trying to find a new rest and get it set up. I realized that if something went on my old bow, like a cable, repairs might not be possible. Oregon is out of business. I needed a more modern bow I thought.

All the talk about Bowtech Constitutions got me thinking about getting one. You can't find finger bows in archery shops anymore especially in Wyoming. I finally found one in Billings and bought it. I now have about $1000 invested in bow, sight, and rest. I found that I could not get it sighted in using a centerest flipper and my corner of mouth anchor. Had to get a WB. Now its sighted in but I cant hit the mark with the WB unless my release is flawless. The hard cam and short valley take some getting used to. I average one arrow lost for each practice session. If you relax the least little bit the arr ow is gone. This bow is designed for release shooting. A lot of guys on here, have made this and other modern bows shoot very well with fingers. I eventually will too. If not I will get a release and make my life easier. I will not be happy about it but who needs the stress. Good luck to you


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm sure that there are several newer bows that are great finger bows. But my point is that they are not any more accurate than the bows made in the 80s. If they were more accurate, the winning tourament scores would have shown an increase and they have not. 

In the last 20 years the archery industry has not come up with any major improvements that have resulted in higher target archery scores.
This really has surprised me. I expected the newer equipment to be even more "user friendly" and produce higher scores. 

KStover


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

KStover said:


> I'm sure that there are several newer bows that are great finger bows. But my point is that they are not any more accurate than the bows made in the 80s. If they were more accurate, the winning tourament scores would have shown an increase and they have not.
> 
> In the last 20 years the archery industry has not come up with any major improvements that have resulted in higher target archery scores.
> This really has surprised me. I expected the newer equipment to be even more "user friendly" and produce higher scores.
> ...


Sorry, I should have read twice replied once.......LOL 

When it comes to just accuracy the biggest thing is the nut holding the string in my opinion. If set up correctly the bow and arrow will do it's job. The bow designs (forgiveness) is to make up for archers mistakes. 

I will say though that the bows are developing some amazing speeds and still retaining good shootability. That has improved a lot since even the 90's. I mentioned my G-force, which I shot well, but it sounded like a rifle and would jump halfway down a lane. The Commander I have shoots quick, but is whisper quiet without any jump or even vibration. Connie's are quick, and are very shootable too.


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

Dave T said:


> You guys talking about "old school" are kind of amusing. If you want real deal shoot a recurve! And, for the ultimate challenge try barebow recurve. (smiley face goes here)
> 
> Dave


actually shot my Black Widow w/o sights @ 61#s as well as the guys guys shooting compound barebow , only thing was if I didnt shoot every day my accuracy and consistancy both suffered


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## NeilM (May 22, 2006)

KStover, we are in different times economically / commercially than we were 20 years ago. I am in the UK and so we have very little influence on what the manufacturers in the US produce for their mass markets, but we, as target and field / 3D shooters, benefit from the advances in cam design, bow design and speed. However, all of these advances are geared towards one thing: Hunting.

I'm sure you guys over there are much more aware than I am of just what level of skill the average hunter possesses, but long range consistent accuracy is not what those customers want. They want fast, hard hitting, close range bows.

The spin off is, that the same technology can bleed over into more target biased bows, but unless you are looking at specialists like Barnsdale and maybe CSS (in the past), with perhaps a smattering of Hoyt, Martin and also Mathews thrown in, then the pure target bows of the past no longer exist.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Dave T said:


> You guys talking about "old school" are kind of amusing. If you want real deal shoot a recurve! And, for the ultimate challenge try barebow recurve. (smiley face goes here)
> 
> Dave


How else are we to describe the compounds of 20 years ago? I enjoy shooting my Oneida and yes I use the newer method of hard cams and off the back wall. I also shoot an H250 Oneida which is the old soft cam low let off out of the valley type of bow.
I also enjoy shooting a long bow and when I am shooting that I find recurve archers talking about 'old school' amusing. It all depends on what you have in your hand at the time.


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## cap61 (Aug 14, 2007)

I too love to shoot fingers over a release, and I have found that it is hard to find a good fingers bow now days without giving up an arm and a leg. I don't shoot touraments myself. I have found that the mid to late '90's Hoyt bows were probably some of the best finger bows around. Longer axle to axle lengths with generous brace heights made for a solid combo. With the addition of command cams to the setup you could achieve a decent amount of speed out of the bow. I myself think that to much speed magnifies the flaws in a shooters release, like mine! My current setup is a Hoyt Defiant legacy with command cams, which is 45 inches axle to axle and has an 8 inch brace. I shoot 31 inch carbon arrows with feathers and shoot around 260fps @ 65LBS. It's a pretty good setup for hunting with about 475grs. of arrow weight. Can you say pass thru? There are alot of good bows and equipment out there, and it all comes down to personal preference, and how much money you want to spend! The only downside to the older bows is the are heavy!


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Kstover, like you I'm an old throw back. Shot competitive recurve and compound both barebow since 1959. Quit shooting several years ago cause my shoulder finally gave out and started back last summer. Like you I don't think the scores have increased over the years but it's not all the equpment, it's the shooters. 

My day job for many years was as a golf pro and that is a good comparison to archery. With all of the new giant club heads, graphite shafts, souped up balls etc the average golf handicap hasn't changed hardly at all for the last 70 years. There is absolutely no doubt that the golf equipment is better but the players aren't. Same thing in archery, only the target bows aren't really any better, just faster. The reason the scores in archery aren't any better is because the shooters form isn't any better, and the mental preparation isn't any better. Until some breakthough in technique is developed allowing shooters to hold steadier, and release better scores won't improve much. As archers we have sort of maxed out physically and mentally and until someone figures out how to improve on those areas things will stay the same.

There are many good bows out there today for finger shooting but really nothing better than your old Pearsons. This is especially true for indoor, and NFAA type known distance shoots, where accuracy not speed plays the dominant role. Todays bows with increased speed will be better for unknown 
distance 3D shoots however. Since 3D is the big game in town today that's where manufacturers are placing there r&d money. If you want a new bow
similar to what we used to shoot get a Barnesdale. Dave will custom build it for you for A-A length, draw length, weight, and type of wheels.

Good luck in your comeback.




















Good luck in your co


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## wirenut583 (Nov 4, 2007)

*Old Skuul*

I am not sure that you can tell a more accurate bow from scores on a known distance course where the modern day bow makes its money is on the 3d and unknown courses. They really help dingalings like me that cant judge distance for CA-CA. On indoor ranges the accuracy is all in the archer and not the equipment I would think that the old stuff might evern be better because it was made for fingers it was the only way to shoot back then. I think all the R&D the Manufacturers are doing is great and let us meatheads argue over the fact that Old School is way better than the New Wave.

OLD GUYS RULE!!


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## BUS314 (Dec 12, 2002)

I'v found that Ebay is today's best friend for rthe finger shooter


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

*Good Idea ?*

:thumbs_upOld Sarge
I agree with your thinking. I checked out Barnsdale website, and liked what I saw.
BUS314 your Ebay idea along with Sarge’s, Barnsdale, suggestion gave me an idea.
What if I got a Pearson 2300 from Ebay and sent the riser to Barnsdale to add new limbs wheels and cables? I’ll bet I’d end up with a faster smoother bow that still had the 48” ATA and a brace height around 10”. This might be the best way for me to get what I want. 

Thanx for the ideas.

KStover


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

This got me wondering.Percentage wise,did more people shoot 300 scores 20 yrs ago ? Or do more do it now ? I mean maybe the top scores arent better but are there more top score shooters ? Just wondering.:darkbeer:


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

300s with fingers was not common in the 80s. I never saw one shot in a tournament. Best I ever shot in a tournament was at the 1986 Texas Field Archery Ass indoor championship, I shot a 299 first day and a 298 the second day. My combined score was a 597. I did shot several 300s but never could do it under pressure. The current Texas FSL record is a two day combined score of 598, shot in 2006. Not much improvement in 20 years.

Last year NFAA outdoor was won with a 522 field and a 527 hunter scores.
I won the TFAA outdoor in 85 with a 523 field and a 526 hunter, same combined score as the 2008 National Champ. I also studied the 2nd - 5th place scores and they sure seem to be about the same as they were "back in the day". 

KStover


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## GPALMA1 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Indoor Bows*

After a 15 year break from the sport of archery, it was quite a shock to see how very few 20 yard target bows existed like there were back in the 80's and early 90's. Speed is the name of the game for 3D's today and it seems as though most archery manufactureres are completely overlooking the indoor spot game. I suppose they are simply going where the vast bulk of the market is and that is understandable.

There once was a time when serious archers wouldn't think of going to the line with bows under 45" ATA, yet try and find one today that actually IS 45" ATA. In fact, most of the bows that I have seen on the line are 33-38" ATA, with a few going up to the 40-42" ATA range. Even more is that these newer bows use "Reflex" riser designs instead of "Deflex" riser designs. If a line is drawn through the limb pivots and the position of the contact point of the grip is noted, those with the grip set rearward are Reflex and those with the grip set forward are Deflex.

The Deflex design is an infinitely more forgiving design because it is far less prone to shooter hand torque. Bow risers with a Deflex design will most generally have a higher brace height as the result of their configuration and this also contributes to forgiveness because the draw stroke is shorter and the arrow leaves the string quicker. If one were to look at the Deflex riser designs of the Hoyt's from the 80's and early 90's as well as the Pearson's, these riser designs shot phenominal scores and in this man's opinion...easier. Both Martin and PSE risers had the contact point of the grip more inline with the limb pivots, but were still relatively easy to shoot and posted some great scores.

The Reflex risers used almost exclusively today offer performance levels that the Deflex riser bows will never approach. They offer a longer power stroke and a larger wheel for the same draw length (in a Deflex riser). This contributes to more speed...the name of the game today and the larger wheels for a given draw length tend to be smoother. They are not the answer for indoor target however. I recently purchased a '98 vintage Hoyt target bow with a slightly Reflexed riser and a 45" ATA. It's definitely more forgiving than the highly reflexed, 33" ATA bow that I had been shooting. But, it's still not optimal from a technically correct design aspect. As well, the grip on the bow or contact point is a bit too angular. It must do however and in time it will give a good accounting of itself.

Short of buying a Barnsdale bow in 45"-48" ATA, a soft walled wheel and a decidedly deflexed riser (which in this man's opinion is THE best pure 20 yard setup available at any price), one is left with few options. There are some inline riser design bows available in the 42" ATA length and these are probably the best choice for 20 yd shooting if one has the funds to buy something new ($800-1200). Outside of that option, the only other choice is to hunt down one of the older, proven designs from that 1985-1998 timeframe that has all of the proper design characteristics...long ATA, severely deflexed riser design, small-ish grip and soft-walled E-wheel. Good luck finding one however. The boards like AT or 3Dshoots have them on occasion as does Ebay auctions. They can be had from $50-200 maximum. Many of these older models used Spectra for both string/cables and they will definitely need replacing with newer synthetics.

There is no question that these newer indoor "target" bows with their performace roots based in 3D shooting can be used for 20 yard spots. There are many 55-60X scores being shot with them to imagine otherwise. It's simply that the manufacturers are now basing their target bows off of their high-perf hunting bows and dressing them up for target shooting. Not the other way around as it used to be. The thing is that many of the younger/newer archers shooting these scores never had the pleasure of shooting the older designs because they simply weren't available anymore. You might even hear the argument that "well, if they were better...how come they no longer make them". Hehehe...it's because bow manufacturers don't make indoor target bows anymore because the market is sooo tiny compared to what the market was in the 80's and early 90's. If the 20 yard market WERE bigger, take it to the bank that the manufacturers would answer the needs of that market segment. Fat chance of that ever happening again


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

I've shot my best scores in the 80's with a Browning Xcellerator, and my best 3D scores with a Hoyt/Easton Spectra Lite Hunter with an overdraw and 25" arrows. But, I push those scores more consistently with my newer equipment. Those high scores were just good days. 

Main difference in the new vs old stuff, IMHE, is the feel of the bow in the hand. My Vectrix is absolutely dead in the hand. It doesn't necessarily produce higher scores, but the bow itself is a pleasure to shoot. I shot my old Spectra Lite the other day and it was ROUGH.


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think I had an Xcellerator. Was that one of the wood riser jobs?

That was back in my bare bow days, before I knew you could put sights on a bow.


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## Dadpays (Oct 11, 2006)

KStover said:


> 300s with fingers was not common in the 80s. I never saw one shot in a tournament. Best I ever shot in a tournament was at the 1986 Texas Field Archery Ass indoor championship, I shot a 299 first day and a 298 the second day. My combined score was a 597. I did shot several 300s but never could do it under pressure. The current Texas FSL record is a two day combined score of 598, shot in 2006. Not much improvement in 20 years.
> 
> KStover



Don't rest on your laurels just yet, I've got one coming! LOL

If you checked out the Barnsdale website, that kid on the front page is my son and he shoots FSL. He just moved to the NFAA 20 yard line (has always shot NAA 18m line) and currently shoots around mid 280s in practice and he is only 12. After practice he always says " I dropped a point here, here, and here that I shouldn't have, I can do better than that - I know I can shoot a 290 or better." He shoots a lot of TSAA/TFAA tournaments so maybe in a few years that 597 will be in danger! He holds the NFAA National record for Cub FSL with a 597 - shot a 300 on day one (only FSL Cub to ever do it at Indoor Nationals) and dropped 3 on day two.


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

Dadpays said:


> Don't rest on your laurels just yet, I've got one coming! LOL
> 
> If you checked out the Barnsdale website, that kid on the front page is my son and he shoots FSL. He just moved to the NFAA 20 yard line (has always shot NAA 18m line) and currently shoots around mid 280s in practice and he is only 12. After practice he always says " I dropped a point here, here, and here that I shouldn't have, I can do better than that - I know I can shoot a 290 or better." He shoots a lot of TSAA/TFAA tournaments so maybe in a few years that 597 will be in danger! He holds the NFAA National record for Cub FSL with a 597 - shot a 300 on day one (only FSL Cub to ever do it at Indoor Nationals) and dropped 3 on day two.


Didn't he get him a nice buck this year too? 

Wonderful job on the part of Dad and Son. I have a 17 year old that hunts and shoots, no matter what we disagree about, we can always agree to go hunting or shooting!

I just hope I never shoot against your son. At least not until he's over 16. I hate it when the kids beat me.


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Yeah?*

I like old school. I did own a 2007 model but sold it. My scores were no higher with it than my early to mid 90's bows. All that is new is not better, its just new. My wife is going use her new Apex 7 over her older Apex this 3D season. I am going to get a correct draw length cam for it and give it a try this season.


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## BUS314 (Dec 12, 2002)

*Reflex Caribou*

can't remember what year it was, but I bought one, & after hearing how Reflex parts were not the same as Hoyt, did a little research---that particular year WAS an exact replica of the Hoyt Aspen--same split limbs, Accuwheels, riser, EVERYTHING-- sent it it to Crackers, & LORD HAVE MERCY, THAT THING WAS SWEET== now I've had neck surgery, shoulder needs it & bad as I have to admit it ; I gotta hang it up


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

*Back in form*

Well in 7 short weeks of shooting since my return to archery, after a 20+ year layoff, I shot my first 300. All my equipment is over 20 years old. I got lucky and found some old 50# limbs on ebay and replaced the heavier limbs on one of my old Pearsons. (At 51 I'm not as strong as I was at 30)
My old gear sure isn't as fast as the newer equipment but it sure is just as accurate.

Happy Trails
Keith


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## willieM (Nov 18, 2007)

congradulations on a fine round. It must feel great to get back to where you once was.
Keep up the good shooting and let us know how it goes down the road.


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## tazhunter0 (Jun 21, 2006)

KStover said:


> Well in 7 short weeks of shooting since my return to archery, after a 20+ year layoff, I shot my first 300. All my equipment is over 20 years old. I got lucky and found some old 50# limbs on ebay and replaced the heavier limbs on one of my old Pearsons. (At 51 I'm not as strong as I was at 30)
> My old gear sure isn't as fast as the newer equipment but it sure is just as accurate.
> 
> Happy Trails
> Keith


Met you in Georgetown when shooting a TFAA indoor shoot earlier this year. Glad to see that you are back shooting with us Finger shooters. There is not many of us around anymore. Let me know if you need anything dealing with finger stuff. I always keep extra rest around. WELCOME Back !!!!!
Chris


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

I jumped back into finger shooting about 3 weeks ago, and I don't really care to go back to shooting Open class.

Finger shooters are truly a dying breed, I would hate to see this class die off.

The prize money may be waning, but you can't find a better bunch of guys to shoot with.

Here's my "old school" Rival pro, gave a her a facelift after returning from Hattiesburg. I gotta say, the new midnight blue looks alot better than the old butt ugly camo.


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

*Congratulations TazhunterO*



tazhunter0 said:


> Met you in Georgetown when shooting a TFAA indoor shoot earlier this year. Glad to see that you are back shooting with us Finger shooters. There is not many of us around anymore. Let me know if you need anything dealing with finger stuff. I always keep extra rest around. WELCOME Back !!!!!
> Chris



Chris,
congratulations on winning the T.F.A.A. State Indoor Championship! I'll be shooting several outdoor tournamants this year, hope to see you at a few of them.

Keith


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## tazhunter0 (Jun 21, 2006)

My scores at state were not my best, but they would have to do at the time. Still getting the kinks work out on the new bow so by outdoor time everything should be good to go. I'll see ya at a few of them. Right now the shoot in Sherman , Waco and Irving are on the list between the 3d shoots I still need to make plus state outdoor. I'll see ya around.

Chris
:darkbeer::thumbs_up:darkbeer::thumbs_up:darkbeer::thumbs_up


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## JohnR (Apr 5, 2007)

*Real Archers Shoot Fingers*

Archery is a "Monkey see, monkey do" sport. ukey: We bought what the hot shots were shooting in the 70's and 80's. Same..same..today. If Cousins won Vegas using a Hickory switch and bailing twine everybody would run out into the woods with chainsaws for bows and the Feed store for strings. 

Shoot the equipment you can afford and are happy with...and have fun.

I find old Jennings T-Stars on e-bay, then rebuild them.  I like'em!!!! I don't need to keep up with the "Jones" or look like everyone else. When the Jennings goes totally extinct...I'll get a recurve...there are more than ample manufacturers willing to sell them.

Today's Generation-X are impatient and gotta do everything now and fast....archery, sex, eating, cars, and life.

Who won the tortise and hare race????? Same with archery.

Welcome back to the fold and have fun!:wink:


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