# Hoyt bow failure at Tokyo Olympics in Finland vs. Malaysia singles match



## Bignutarcher10 (Jul 28, 2021)

I've been following archery at the olympics this year closely and much to my surprise last night while watching the Finland (Antti Vikström ) vs. Malaysia (Anuar Mohamad) mens singles elim match, Antti's Hoyt Formula Velos bottom limb delaminated at full draw.

I was wondering if anyone else saw that and was as shocked as I was? I really feel bad for the Finnish guy, he was up 5 to 3 and then after the bow failure, lost the set and had to go into a 1 arrow shootoff with his backup bow that he only shot 1 arrow with (and it was a 6 at that.) He ultimately lost the shoot-off and got eliminated and I can't help but feel for the guy. I honestly feel like perhaps the limb was letting go a few arrows before that since the groups inexplicably opened up.




















It honestly makes me wonder if Brady should've brought a backup bow since I only see him walk out with 1 bow.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

Well, it is definitely not good for archers shooting Hoyt Velos Limbs... How many of them are now thinking "am I next"?

Granted this is the first time I seen Limb failure in Hoyt... But still, how many archers now have doubts about their Hoyt Velos limbs?

Damage control time for Hoyt, on the double!


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## Taufiq (Oct 17, 2016)

Some people on facebook and reddit are saying that this is his second limb failure, with the first being in the ranking round. Is this true?


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Anyone who has never broken a set of limbs must not be shooting too much or they are very lucky. Every brand. I just wonder how many arrows he’d put through that set. Not good advertising for sure but most of us aren’t shooting 50#+ and 90k arrows a year.

I believe his ranking round equipment failure was due to issues with his sight. Maybe someone who knows for sure can confirm.

Very unfortunate. He may indeed change brand (I wouldn’t blame him) but he might also consider that he got to the Olympics with that bow and maybe he’ll replace his limbs 2 months earlier next go around. If they don’t have a lot of use in them he is doubly unlucky.

Stretch


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Saw it on stream last night. Really tough break for Antti, an equipment failure that deep into the match is hard to recover from since you don't have any breathing room on sets to warm up the backup bow. 

I will be curious to see if he switches away from Hoyt after an experience like this. (For even the whole Finnish team) 

I personally haven't had great luck with the finish on the newer matte Velos limbs so I'm curious if his pair is the newer matte finish.


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## Lorne (Jun 5, 2016)

On the plus side, there will be a lot of Velo's for sale at low prices on the classified's page ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Lorne said:


> On the plus side, there will be a lot of Velo's for sale on the classified's page at low prices now...


Just like the FX limbs after Sydney and then the G3's after Athens, both of which were well known among coaches for their untimely failures, mostly due to a separation of the foam core or poor adhesion from the carbon to the foam core. More recently, it was another Hoyt limb that failed on a number of archers at JOAD Nationals over a span of 2-3 years. I forget what those were called, but it wasn't long before the used market was full of them.

I would be curious to know the ratio of failed wood core vs. foam core limbs. I feel like it's much higher in the foam core limbs.

Hoyt has always produced fantastic risers, but as long as I've been in the sport (18 years now) their limbs have been hit or miss, and are typically slower than a comparably priced competitor's limb, which is unfortunate. I really wish they would get their limb game sorted out.

UK_Stretch - I've never had a limb fail on me at full draw, and the only limb failure I've experienced was in fact not the fault of the limb but rather the prototype riser I was using it on (at the 2012 trials). Thankfully that was a hairline fracture in the carbon layer that just slowly lost strength over the course of the day and not a catastrophic failure. Although it would have been better for my score had it failed suddenly and I had a chance to shoot my 2nd bow the rest of the day. But my point is I've been at this a while - shooting hunting and target recurves since the 1980's and I've not had a limb fail at full draw, even pulling them 10# over their marked weight routinely with my +4.5" draw length.

I did have a student whose limbs failed at full draw, but that's because they insisted on using low-stretch string materials on a 40 year old Hoyt limb designed for Dacron only, even after being warned. Teens... LOL


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I’ve had 3 limbs fail dramatically. All from different manufacturers. This over decades of shooting a lot of arrows. All 3 were within the warranty time frame and replaced. A couple took some major arm twisting anyway. It happens. I have 2 sets of Velos…. Both still going strong. Hmmm might be time to dump them? 😂


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## midnightwarrior (Mar 11, 2021)

Bignutarcher10 said:


> I've been following archery at the olympics this year closely and much to my surprise last night while watching the Finland (Antti Vikström ) vs. Malaysia (Anuar Mohamad) mens singles elim match, Antti's Hoyt Formula Velos bottom limb delaminated at full draw.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone else saw that and was as shocked as I was? I really feel bad for the Finnish guy, he was up 5 to 3 and then after the bow failure, lost the set and had to go into a 1 arrow shootoff with his backup bow that he only shot 1 arrow with (and it was a 6 at that.) He ultimately lost the shoot-off and got eliminated and I can't help but feel for the guy. I honestly feel like perhaps the limb was getting go a few arrows before that since the groups inexplicably opened up.
> 
> ...


Velos. not surprised, happened to an RA last year right in the middle of a match. those were hoyt velos as well. they have quality issues from what we have seen


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> *I’ve had 3 limbs fail dramatically*. All from different manufacturers. This over decades of shooting a lot of arrows. All 3 were within the warranty time frame and replaced. A couple took some major arm twisting anyway. It happens. I have 2 sets of Velos…. Both still going strong. Hmmm might be time to dump them? 😂


Foam or wood core?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Foam or wood core?


2 foam core and one wood. Common failure in all at the fade out.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Just like the FX limbs after Sydney and then the G3's after Athens, both of which were well known among coaches for their untimely failures, mostly due to a separation of the foam core or poor adhesion from the carbon to the foam core. More recently, it was another Hoyt limb that failed on a number of archers at JOAD Nationals over a span of 2-3 years. I forget what those were called, but it wasn't long before the used market was full of them.


If I remember right, they were the Hoyt Quattro limbs. There were quite a few documented delaminations of those limbs at the national tournaments.


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

That is crazy. Good thing I have Uukha. Not wood or foam, pure carbon.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

maxpowerpc2000 said:


> That is crazy. Good thing I have Uukha. Not wood or foam, pure carbon.


...thinking of the same thing...


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Unfortunately, uukha are not actually bombproof. The finish is THE WORST in the industry and they actually can delaminate.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

ryan b. said:


> Unfortunately, uukha are not actually bombproof. The finish is THE WORST in the industry and they actually can *delaminate*.


Uukha limbs are not laminated.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lameduck said:


> Uukha limbs are not laminated.


But are there not layers of carbon that could separate? I honestly don't know as I've never had a pair. Educate us.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> But are there not layers of carbon that could separate? I honestly don't know as I've never had a pair. Educate us.


I don't know. My Uukha limbs don't have seams or a visible spot where a separation could happen.

This is what Uukha claims in their product catalog...


> Monolith Carbon is a unique technology offering consistent performance, day after day, in all types of weather. It has proven to be more reliable and longer lasting than laminated construction.
> 
> Our limbs are made from many unidirectional tapes of prepreg carbon, moulded and fused together in CNC moulds. This makes our limbs light, strong and resistent to delamination.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lameduck said:


> I don't know. My Uukha limbs don't have seams or a visible spot where a separation could happen.
> 
> This is what Uukha claims in their product catalog...


I know most folks who have Uukha limbs love them. Just not sure why we don't see them in the Olympics more


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

I feel for the gentleman greatly. Years of hard work to get to shooting at that level and?....... I've never had a recurve limb fail (I'm on my 5th recurve) but I've had two compounds blow up. And I do mean BLOW UP! Talk about scared......


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## Russ H (Jul 28, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> I know most folks who have Uukha limbs love them. Just not sure why we don't see them in the Olympics more


noticed one of the women from Mexico is shooting uukha setup. That's the only ones I've seen on this level. Must be a few more??


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## ahw (Dec 4, 2019)

ryan b. said:


> Unfortunately, uukha are not actually bombproof. The finish is THE WORST in the industry and they actually can delaminate.


You got proof of that? I've been looking for some ever since they came out since I was curious about their limb construction method, but I've not found anything substantiated


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## ahw (Dec 4, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> I know most folks who have Uukha limbs love them. Just not sure why we don't see them in the Olympics more


Do you $uppo$e there i$ a $pecific rea$on for that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ahw said:


> Do you $uppo$e there i$ a $pecific rea$on for that?


Probably not as much as you might think.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> I know most folks who have Uukha limbs love them. Just not sure why we don't see them in the Olympics more


It's popular among the more traditional shooters though. A barebow guy from Australia who won the Lancaster Classic in 2019 shoots with Uukha limbs.


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## chase128 (May 29, 2015)

lameduck said:


> It's popular among the more traditional shooters though. A barebow guy from Australia who won the Lancaster Classic in 2019 shoots with Uukha limbs.


It is one of / possibly the most popular WA barebow limb brand these days? 

This is a screenshot from a poll a while back in the massive facebook world archery rules Barebow group.


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## chase128 (May 29, 2015)

ahw said:


> Do you $uppo$e there i$ a $pecific rea$on for that?


In our local college club circle it was simply people who were competitive didn't want to take a risk on something different. They wanted to stick with the known quantity of whatever last couple years top W&W was. 

I bet this holds true even harder at high levels. The students asks the coach what is good to get, and the coach says the current high level well known / characterized limb, most likely something from the big 2 that the pros are shooting at the time. 

For our local club, it took a combination of someone randomly buying a set of Uukha (lol, it was for some EX1 vs Wiawis NS testing  ), combined with the grassroots popularity, and the top barebow shooters using them in last couple Lancaster Classics. (Grayson Partlowe, Michael Fisher).

I feel this need to stick to a "safe" or "conventional" high level product is also why we didn't see as many shooters using NPX arrows instead of X10s.
(^Still sad about these being discontinued)


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## pete32 (Jan 16, 2010)

Dang I feel for him......I might be looking else where if that was indeed my 2nd limb break


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

RE: chart above: Apparently some Uukha models (all? a few?) have a draw force curve that makes it an easy choice among the clicker-less crowd. (edited for grammer)


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Ah, the good old days...

Equipment choices were a bit simpler.
Hoyt or Yamaha?
X7 or XX75?

Go shoot.

😄


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> (edited for grammer)


Uh, grammar. Sorry - I just couldn't pass this up.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Although I did say grammer, not spelling.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> I know most folks who have Uukha limbs love them. Just not sure why we don't see them in the Olympics more


Jake has a video comparing speed and 70m “shoot-ability” on Uukha, Velos and W&W. 
Interesting take at the end.


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Draven Olary said:


> Jake has a video comparing speed and 70m “shoot-ability” on Uukha, Velos and W&W.
> Interesting take at the end.


Have a link? Or perhaps you can paraphrase him for us...

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ray.L (Apr 29, 2021)




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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Seattlepop said:


> View attachment 7439842
> 
> 
> Although I did say grammer, not spelling.


Classic! 😂


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

ryan b. said:


> Unfortunately, uukha are not actually bombproof. The finish is THE WORST in the industry and they actually can delaminate.


I was of the impression they weren't laminated?

I did notice Valencia's arrow speed was up there compared to the other ladies. Don't suppose GT got her draw weight? 

IIRC in some older videos more of the Mexicans were shooting uukha.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

tassie_devil said:


> I was of the impression they weren't laminated?


That was my thought too... Can someone clarify that?

I shoot Uukhas for my barebow setup, and was thinking about getting them for my OR setup...


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Just like the FX limbs after Sydney and then the G3's after Athens, both of which were well known among coaches for their untimely failures, mostly due to a separation of the foam core or poor adhesion from the carbon to the foam core. More recently, it was another Hoyt limb that failed on a number of archers at JOAD Nationals over a span of 2-3 years. I forget what those were called, but it wasn't long before the used market was full of them.
> 
> I would be curious to know the ratio of failed wood core vs. foam core limbs. I feel like it's much higher in the foam core limbs.
> 
> ...


You must be very lucky in this space and if you used craftsman level Sky limbs a lot that would feature. I’ve broken quite a few sets of limbs catastrophically (and more than a few risers). I broke limbs from Marksman (who had been world class), Stylist (Olympic medals won in Barcelona), Yamaha (all be it on an oldish bow I was messing around with) - all woodcore; and another set of Foam Stylist and a set of W&W Winex (Foam). So yes, Stylist limbs were not terrifically robust - they should have used glue instead of gum. I have a set of Hoyt Carbon Plus that have been in a car accident and still shoot OK.

All the limbs I have broken always exploded as the arrow launched so the arrow still went in the middle (Or those that didn’t were down to me…) So the last set I broke were the Winnex and that was 2008 And they’d had very little use. A limb that fails at full draw actually failed after the previous shot but then “gave up” visibly when it was next pulled - what was left after the failure was strong enough to hold the string at brace height. So in the example of these Velos I’d guess that the delamination had started and when pulled the bamboo core failed. Maybe the other way and the core had failed then the delamination when it was pulled.

My recollection was that Victor Ruban had so many W&W limbs (Inno Power?) go on him before Beijing that he switched to Hoyt after despite winning gold. (Mind you his bows always sounded like a SAAB Viggen on its tail pipes). And there were always W&W Synerzy limbs 😇 It just happens. But I know people had problems with G3 and Quattro but I didn’t. In fact my Woodcore Quattros are probably the nicest limbs I ever owned. If you are lucky, when limbs break they are under warranty. Look at the warranties - Hoyt Riser Lifetime. Hoyt Limb - 1 year. Says it all, and I don’t think anyone has a longer warranty… I’m sure someone will correct me when I am wrong.

I’d agree that a traditionally designed wood core limb seems less likely to go But the Marksman limbs I had were a classic wood/glass construction. Can’t comment on Uukha - I don’t like “super recurves” so they don’t have a limb I am interested in. The DFC does not suit a push/pull balanced shot and good clicker control. You need to be a pusher or have that super fast shot style like Valencia.

Alvarez used to shoot Uukha but has been with FIVICS for a while now.

Stretch


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Stash said:


> Ah, the good old days...
> 
> Equipment choices were a bit simpler.
> Hoyt or Yamaha?
> ...


... I ever shot Nishizawa from 1975 to 1990 when I tried Hoyt TD5 /Carbon + limbs combination for a few years.
But before Nishi, I had a Bear TD same as Giancarlo Ferrari, that also shot a Wing TD in late 70's. 
Situation was a bit similar to now, we could choose between Wing, Bear, Nishizawa, Yamaha, Talenta, Zopf, Atletic, Hoyt but the market moved to 2 brands only ...


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

Vittorio,

I'm a relative newbie to OR scene... I have never heard of Nishzawa, Talenta, Zopt, and Atletic...

Having choice is a good thing, so I wonder what happened to those companies? Do Hoyt and W & W just that much better at producing OR gears, or it is marketing because they sponsor the most OR archers?

Love to hear your take on it.

PS: Can't wait for my Gillo GT 27" to come in!


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yes, you would see an occasional different brand. The ones you mentioned, and Black Widow, Marksman, OK, Chek Mate, can’t think of others right now. I started with Black Widow, then stuck with Hoyt (had a Wing CII for a short while but didn’t like it).

But at the international level, overwhelmingly Hoyt and Yamaha (late ‘70s to late ‘80s). The CNC machined riser opened the market up. I suppose casting technology was not the easiest thing for a new company to start up.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Greenhorn as well.

I loved Nishizawa bows but could never afford one.

Stretch


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

UK_Stretch said:


> You must be very lucky in this space and if you used craftsman level Sky limbs a lot that would feature. I’ve broken quite a few sets of limbs catastrophically (and more than a few risers). I broke limbs from Marksman (who had been world class), Stylist (Olympic medals won in Barcelona), Yamaha (all be it on an oldish bow I was messing around with) - all woodcore; and another set of Foam Stylist and a set of W&W Winex (Foam). So yes, Stylist limbs were not terrifically robust - they should have used glue instead of gum. I have a set of Hoyt Carbon Plus that have been in a car accident and still shoot OK.
> 
> All the limbs I have broken always exploded as the arrow launched so the arrow still went in the middle (Or those that didn’t were down to me…) So the last set I broke were the Winnex and that was 2008 And they’d had very little use. A limb that fails at full draw actually failed after the previous shot but then “gave up” visibly when it was next pulled - what was left after the failure was strong enough to hold the string at brace height. So in the example of these Velos I’d guess that the delamination had started and when pulled the bamboo core failed. Maybe the other way and the core had failed then the delamination when it was pulled.
> 
> ...


Maybe I have been lucky, but I'm still shooting my Earl Hoyt SKY Jack limbs since '03 - shot them just Monday in fact - and I prefer wood core limbs. Aside from those original C+ limbs (and I had some of those too as did many of my students) I don't trust foam core to hold together at my draw length.


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## ahw (Dec 4, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> Probably not as much as you might think.


That was mostly tongue-in-cheek. But on a broader more serious note, to what extent does sponsorships dictate what these people are shooting?


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

ahw said:


> That was mostly tongue-in-cheek. But on a broader more serious note, to what extent does sponsorships dictate what these people are shooting?


Sponsors provide the salaries of the pros who endorse their products.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lameduck said:


> Sponsors provide the salaries of the pros who endorse their products.


Not always. Again, probably not as much as you might think. There is not much room for a 2nd or 3rd or ... "pro" shooting for a major company. Especially in recurve.


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## Rael84 (Feb 22, 2016)

Most sponsorships in archery are discounts or free product with a contingency for wins.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Rael84 said:


> Most sponsorships in archery are discounts or free product with a contingency for wins.


For the vast majority of archers and companies, I think an open contingency makes the most sense. Unless you're going to do a lot of non-competition promotion or test prototypes.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

My velos came out on the light side of their rated weight and also came with 7/16ths inch tiller.... that seems to be a lot to me but I have asked a few others and the 7/16 seems to be pretty common...I know I wish I would have bought the cheaper wood core integras... the bamboo is just too smooth... nothing to pull into. And I wasn't impressed with the factory finish... maybe I should be selling them


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

stick monkey said:


> My velos came out on the light side of their rated weight and also came with 7/16ths inch tiller.... that seems to be a lot to me but I have asked a few others and the 7/16 seems to be pretty common...I know I wish I would have bought the cheaper wood core integras... the bamboo is just too smooth... nothing to pull into. And I wasn't impressed with the factory finish... maybe I should be selling them


I used to think a smoother limb through the clicker would be an advantage until I had a few really smooth limbs through the clicker zone. Turns out I felt lost and as you said - had nothing to pull into - and I went back to my conventional limbs where I was much more familiar and comfortable. Almost like a two-stage trigger on a rifle.

I am going to be testing another set of limbs soon that I'm told are smoother through the clicker zone than what I'm using now. We'll see how that goes...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Maybe if I would have bought shorts or buy them 5 pounds heavy then I might get the feel I wanted... people who mention uukha ...I had the same feeling with them... not back end and too smooth and their finish sucks too.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I used to think a smoother limb through the clicker would be an advantage until I had a few really smooth limbs through the clicker zone. Turns out I felt lost and as you said - had nothing to pull into - and I went back to my conventional limbs where I was much more familiar and comfortable. Almost like a two-stage trigger on a rifle.


The funny thing is that was the preference I had for olympic bow so I carried the same thought process over to barebow.

However, in my quest to build a really tall bow to offset the limb imbalance of stringwalking, I built a 74inch bow with XL uukha SX+ limbs (since it seems like I could not get a good pair of XL Hoyt Velos limbs even after 3 pairs.) What I noticed is that the uukha limb tips bloomed about an inch before my draw length giving me a sort of pseudo-valley like feeling on a non-compound bow. Ive since been shooting both the 74inch sx+ BB bow and 72inch MK Veracity BB bow back and forth and noticed that for BB, I shoot the best *under pressure* with the uukhas. I've noticed that since I don't have the time these days to dedicate to maintaining a really strong mental discipline to shooting BB, the slight uukha valley is a nice crutch for me when I have to hold at full draw under high pressure situations (I sometimes do mock team rounds with my club mates).

Of course, YMMV but as a few of my club mates can attest, I was staunchly opposed to uukhas and extra curves / smoothness until my experiences this year with uukha on BB.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Velos aren’t that soft at the clicker unless you are short-ish draw for limb length. As a 70” bow they are a little soft at 31” but at 32” they are close to 2# per inch. So they are nothing like a super recurve feel - which for me gives all kinds of clicker and aiming issues. Haven’t tried the 73”… yet 

But yes they are ridiculously smooth.

Stretch


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I wonder what the failure rates actually are among similar construction limbs. It might be that there are more velos sold…

Personally I like my Win and Uukha limbs. The Uukha is not laminated btw. My understanding is that is carbon billet construction but I am not sure. The reason that the finish is fragile is the same reason that carbon laminated limbs fail. It is hard to bond to. The finish has nothing to do with performance but it can look shabby after a while. 

Someone mentioned a student breaking a 40year old limb due to non stretch material in the string. 40 years ago we were using Kevlar with no iss on the Hoyt limbs(other than the strings not lasting much beyond 1000 shots). Earl beefed up the limb tips IIRC but he was not concerned about moving beyond Dacron to newer materials. They did have some early issues with bonding to carbon but sorted that out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> I wonder what the failure rates actually are among similar construction limbs. It might be that there are more velos sold…
> 
> Personally I like my Win and Uukha limbs. The Uukha is not laminated btw. My understanding is that is carbon billet construction but I am not sure. The reason that the finish is fragile is the same reason that carbon laminated limbs fail. It is hard to bond to. The finish has nothing to do with performance but it can look shabby after a while.
> 
> ...


That was me Leonard. The student of mine was shooting a TD-2 with wood/glass limbs and the old tips with the single stripe of phenolic in them. He insisted on using FF strings and he paid for that unfortunately. He was never the same after that and he went back to shooting compound.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> I used to think a smoother limb through the clicker would be an advantage until I had a few really smooth limbs through the clicker zone. Turns out I felt lost and as you said - had nothing to pull into - and I went back to my conventional limbs where I was much more familiar and comfortable. Almost like a two-stage trigger on a rifle.
> 
> I am going to be testing another set of limbs soon that I'm told are smoother through the clicker zone than what I'm using now. We'll see how that goes...


Do you look at the clicker? I'm curious because I'd assume an archer who pauses to watch the clicker may sometimes have trouble getting their momentum moving again. And limbs that are silky smooth at the back end may help with that. What is your opinion?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

strugglesticks said:


> Do you look at the clicker? I'm curious because I'd assume an archer who pauses to watch the clicker may sometimes have trouble getting their momentum moving again. And limbs that are silky smooth at the back end may help with that. What is your opinion?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yes, unless I'm really settled in and then I don't need to. But usually I start with looking at the clicker.

I am convinced that I know where I'm at in the shot based on draw weight, not draw length.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> That was me Leonard. The student of mine was shooting a TD-2 with wood/glass limbs and the old tips with the single stripe of phenolic in them. He insisted on using FF strings and he paid for that unfortunately. He was never the same after that and he went back to shooting compound.


TD2 would be more than 40years old young man. And age may have been a factor as well. I just know we used Kevlar on those with very few problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

lameduck said:


> I don't know. My Uukha limbs don't have seams or a visible spot where a separation could happen.
> 
> This is what Uukha claims in their product catalog...


Not sure what you would call this but I would say the the edge has de-laminated!
EX 1 Evo 2's after approx 2 1/2 months of 2 day per week use. I treated them like they were gold, never dry fired, never knocked them and only 28" DL @ 37lb on a 38lb med limb so this was just bad luck .To Uukhas credit they replaced them and the new pair that have since been upgraded to SX100's have not shown the same issues.

Happened on top limb at about 1-2" below the string groove end.


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

It’s cracked not delaminated. Makes me think they are a hollow carbon construction. Anyone with some nice new Uukha’s want to run the through he band saw so we can see a cross section?

Thought not….


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> TD2 would be more than 40years old young man. And age may have been a factor as well. I just know we used Kevlar on those with very few problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This was almost 15 years ago. Regardless, it was a problem for him. The string loop split the limb into 3 parts at the string groove after cutting right through the limb tip overlay.


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## Graf228 (Dec 6, 2020)

As a new archer, seeing a limb delaminate like that live was incredible. Poor guy trained his whole life only to lose because of a limb failure


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Graf228 said:


> As a new archer, seeing a limb delaminate like that live was incredible. Poor guy trained his whole life only to lose because of a limb failure


Yes, it is a tragic time for something like that to happen, and he will never forget that so long as he shoots. 

I had an equipment failure during the 2012 trials and that always sticks in my mind. You will forever wonder what might have been...


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## Rael84 (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm hoping this creates some pressure to address equipment failure in head to head competition. It makes no sense to accommodate it during the ranking round and (effectively) ignore it in head to head. As others have observed, even a backup bow is no security when you've got 20 seconds to make your shot.


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## Graf228 (Dec 6, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, it is a tragic time for something like that to happen, and he will never forget that so long as he shoots.
> 
> I had an equipment failure during the 2012 trials and that always sticks in my mind. You will forever wonder what might have been...


You always hear about bows "blowing up" too, I'm just glad this wasn't an "explosion" per say and he didn't get injured


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Graf228 said:


> You always hear about bows "blowing up" too, I'm just glad this wasn't an "explosion" per say and he didn't get injured


I've never seen a recurve blow up. Failures tend to look like what happened to him, or someone looks at their bow in the stand or on the ground and notices a limb that is bent well beyond normal (delam's look that way). Compounds on the other hand... those blow up! LOL


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rael84 said:


> I'm hoping this creates some pressure to address equipment failure in head to head competition. It makes no sense to accommodate it during the ranking round and (effectively) ignore it in head to head. As others have observed, even a backup bow is no security when you've got 20 seconds to make your shot.


Switching from 40 to 20 seconds effectively made the backup bow moot, unless you consider giving away a set to be an acceptable penalty for something you have no control over.


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## Mr. Ken (Aug 6, 2019)

With the limb failure strictly not his fault, was he not allowed to shoot a back up bow for that shot?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

No.


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## ahw (Dec 4, 2019)

vscarf10 said:


> Not sure what you would call this but I would say the the edge has de-laminated!





tassie_devil said:


> It’s cracked not delaminated.



Nah, that's a delamination if I ever saw one. Clear separation of layers.

Thanks vscarf10. I wasn't sure this type of failure mode was possible with Uukhas given their construction technique, but your experience and photo is unequivocal proof that it is.


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## ForeverNewbie (Feb 21, 2018)

In Jake Kaminski's recent discussion on his Youtube channel about the Olympics, he mentioned that if that level of bow failure occurs in competition of that level, the archer is basically "done" due to the psychological effect on the archer and the time spending on the bow.

I can imagine this is the case for a sport 1% is a significant difference, but would like to hear the thought from those "been there, done that."


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

It would be pretty easy to introduce an equipment failure rule for the bow being unshootable - either a bust limb, broken string or broken riser. Broken string does not mean serving/nocking point unraveling- it means broken. Broken riser/limb means failed - not here is a scratch that could be a crack. Archer comes off the line and shows the bow to the judge. If it is not one of the clearly listed conditions they lose the time slot and arrow. If it is they get another 20 seconds. (Although my preference would be 25 or 30 seconds for all arrows).

I know WA think that 20s makes it exciting and I guess it does but for the wrong reasons. Otherwise for a fair playing field you need something like F1s super crappy system “oh well you are only allowed 2 risers, 3 sets of limbs and 24 arrows for the season - use more than that and you get a penalty”.

A match is so quick that given an extra 5s per arrow (that sometimes won’t get used) you’re adding virtually nothing to the duration. And time better spent than all the introductions at the beginning and all the hugging at the end.

Stretch


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

UK_Stretch said:


> A match is so quick that given an extra 5s per arrow (that sometimes won’t get used) you’re adding virtually nothing to the duration. And time better spent than all the introductions at the beginning and all the hugging at the end.
> 
> Stretch


Ana Vasquez (Mexic) was actually trying to use the 20 seconds to the max. She was taking her time (maybe avoid gusts of wind) and was always starting to draw the bow at 12seconds mark and releasing at 1second. She paid the price for this in last round. If she had 5 extra seconds the history maybe was different in her match.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

confirmed he had two deliminations at Tokyo. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> Ana Vasquez (Mexic) was actually trying to use the 20 seconds to the max. She was taking her time (maybe avoid gusts of wind) and was always starting to draw the bow at 12seconds mark and releasing at 1second. She paid the price for this in last round. If she had 5 extra seconds the history maybe was different in her match.


You know I read all this about seconds and no second chances, etc (this isn't directed at you Draven) and I think, *** is going on in our sport? 

You watch so many other sports and they get minutes and hours to perform. 

This current format is bullsht if you ask me. I don't know who came up with it, but they need their head checked and it's clear to me they are not interested in seeing the best from each athlete.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> confirmed he had two deliminations at Tokyo.
> 
> Chris


Confirmed by whom? Other Finnish archers didn’t think so but may not have been right.

Interesting if so as I haven’t heard of any others. So that is severely bad luck or something about the way he sets his bow up that I would really like to not copy.

Results from Tokyo are clear though. Doesn’t matter what brand you choose they’ll all get it done. But then we knew that already…

Stretch


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> You know I read all this about seconds and no second chances, etc (this isn't directed at you Draven) and I think, *** is going on in our sport?
> 
> You watch so many other sports and they get minutes and hours to perform.
> 
> This current format is bullsht if you ask me. I don't know who came up with it, but they need their head checked and it's clear to me they are not interested in seeing the best from each athlete.



You know what's funny? Indoor WA is allowing 2 min for 3 arrows. Outdoors, they cut it to 20s per arrow. That's more than stupid, it's a monument of stupidity. Instead keeping the eyes glued on an empty stadium until the next pair is coming in, from those 5 min of nothing give 3 to the archers on the line.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

UK_Stretch said:


> Confirmed by whom? Other Finnish archers didn’t think so but may not have been right.
> 
> Interesting if so as I haven’t heard of any others. So that is severely bad luck or something about the way he sets his bow up that I would really like to not copy.
> 
> ...


sent pm. 


Chris


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

If he did indeed have 2, I’d suspect it was a batch issue (assuming the serials are close to sequential). Like computing, if you’re making a RAID array, using drives that are all from the same batch is risky (if one fails, the others might fail soon too).


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## JotaR (Nov 16, 2020)

Well for one, this was a very surprissing olympic event. This was just one of the weird things that happened there. Fun to watch though


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Sorry Chris but you have to look at this objectively - when someone who has a vested interest on one brand has absolute evidence of a “problem” with another brand but can’t share the evidence… not very convincing is it? 🤔

Stretch


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Sorry, i cant post a private message on here. The head coach specifically told me the archer had a double lamination at Tokyo. If you choose not to believe it, that is on you. I happen to take the head coach's word for it. I have no interest if he had one, two or three failures, or what limb he shot or will shoot.

My only concern was he had no time to get his spare bow and shoot the shot costing him the set which i feel was due to the too short shooting time set by World Archery.


Chris


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> The head coach specifically told me the archer had a double lamination at Tokyo.
> Chris


If the 1st one looked like what happened on the line where the limb basically snapped in half, I wouldn't call that delamination.

In any case, if this happened twice to him, I would be willing to be that they were custom draw weight limbs specifically made for him not too far apart in the production order.

Not that this excuses anything from the manufacturer or detracts from how terrible this was to happen when it did. This conjecture solely based on the fact that it happened twice to the same guy at the same tournament.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Did he bring 3 sets of limbs with him, or nip out to the local Tokyo archery shop for the limbs he used for his second backup? Maybe buy, rent or borrow a set off someone who had already bern eliminated?


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> Sorry, i cant post a private message on here. The head coach specifically told me the archer had a double lamination at Tokyo. If you choose not to believe it, that is on you. I happen to take the head coach's word for it. I have no interest if he had one, two or three failures, or what limb he shot or will shoot.
> 
> My only concern was he had no time to get his spare bow and shoot the shot costing him the set which i feel was due to the too short shooting time set by World Archery.
> 
> ...


Sorry Chris, you’re missing the point. You’ve now shared the source of your info with everyone reading the discussion- previously you had not. It’s not about “trust”, it’s about credible information. As we know, this is this internet, any fool can say anything and claim that “someone I know at the games/in the company/ in the team said xyz”. Your info would be more even more credible if you cited the name e.g. Pentti Vikstrom or whichever Finnish coach it was…

I guess that means he had 3 equipment failures as he had a problem with his sight too.

This is why we love photos.

Stretch


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Did he bring 3 sets of limbs with him, or nip out to the local Tokyo archery shop for the limbs he used for his second backup? *Maybe buy, rent or borrow a set off someone who had already bern eliminated?*


Now that's old school common sense & experience right there.  I like it!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

UK_Stretch said:


> Sorry Chris, you’re missing the point. You’ve now shared the source of your info with everyone reading the discussion- previously you had not. It’s not about “trust”, it’s about credible information. As we know, this is this internet, any fool can say anything and claim that “someone I know at the games/in the company/ in the team said xyz”. Your info would be more even more credible if you cited the name e.g. Pentti Vikstrom or whichever Finnish coach it was…
> 
> I guess that means he had 3 equipment failures as he had a problem with his sight too.
> 
> ...


Miiika Aulio - Olympic Team head coach

Why do people think i make stuff up....


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Miiika Aulio - Olympic Team head coach
> 
> Why do people think i make stuff up....
> 
> ...


Because it makes them feel "more smarter." LOL


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> Miiika Aulio - Olympic Team head coach
> 
> Why do people think i make stuff up....
> 
> ...


Ha ha… maybe still missing the point… if you cite information without reference to your source then how are people supposed to know? I believed you as it happened. If you play super secret squirrel with the data then no, people will think you‘re making stuff up… because generally that is what is on the internet… made up sh*t. (Well at least people who sift through information for a living will).

Stretch


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Just like the FX limbs after Sydney and then the G3's after Athens, both of which were well known among coaches for their untimely failures, mostly due to a separation of the foam core or poor adhesion from the carbon to the foam core. More recently, it was another Hoyt limb that failed on a number of archers at JOAD Nationals over a span of 2-3 years. I forget what those were called, but it wasn't long before the used market was full of them.
> 
> I would be curious to know the ratio of failed wood core vs. foam core limbs. I feel like it's much higher in the foam core limbs.
> 
> ...


The Hoyt Vectors and the MIs had good reputations. The G3 Issue (and I had some bad ones) was that they were being made when the US Military was requisitioning carbon sheets for military use and Hoyt had a hard time getting the top of the line stuff. Maple laminates were also hard to get at some point due to the X-games stars like Shaun White popularizing snowboard and skateboard and maple laminates were being used for that purpose. WW had a limb that failed a lot-it wasn't the WINEX but the all carbon/foam limb that came after that. Earl Hoyt Sky Jacks (ILF) and the Conquest wood carbons -never had issues-I have kids shooting such limbs that are often 10 years older than the archer


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## Heartmood (Sep 13, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> But are there not layers of carbon that could separate? I honestly don't know as I've never had a pair. Educate us.


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## ahw (Dec 4, 2019)

I'm still unclear as to what they're trying to claim here. Looks like a standard carbon fiber lamination process to me. Unless they're claiming they're carbonzing the resin matrix or something?

Also I looked a little harder and found some other uukha failures:












Stickbow.com's "LeatherWall" Traditional Archery Discussion Forum


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## Heartmood (Sep 13, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> But are there not layers of carbon that could separate? I honestly don't know as I've never had a pair. Educate us.


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## BeiterBiter (Aug 11, 2021)

UK_Stretch said:


> Confirmed by whom?


Antti did indeed experience two limb failures - first one in the official practice before the ranking round and the second one in the elimination match. He also experienced a problem with his sight during the ranking round, with two hex screws working loose during the 6th end. All of this has been widely reported by various Finnish media outlets:









Antti Vikström murtui kyyneliin – suomalainen koki Tokiossa käsittämätöntä epäonnea: "Sellaisia sanoja päässä, joita ei kannata sanoa"


Kenellekään ei jäänyt epäselväksi, miten raju pettymys Tokion olympialaisista tuli jousiampuja Antti Vikströmille. Suomalaisampuja kertasi välineongelmien murjomaa olympiaurakkaansa toimittajille kyyneleet silmissä ja äänellä, josta huokui valtava epäusko.




www.mtvuutiset.fi












Olympialaiset | Jousiampuja Antti Vikströmin jousesta halkesi lapa kesken ammunnan – Olympiaurakka päättyi kyyneliin


Suomalaisella oli ratkaisuhetkillä käytössään varajousen varajousi. Vikströmin urakka päättyi pudotusammuntojen avauskierrokselle.




www.hs.fi












Kuva: Suomalaisampujalle kävi kylmät Tokiossa: ”Näin ei ole sattunut koko uralla”


Jousiampuja Antti Vikströmiltä hajosi ase ja myös varavälineessä oli ongelmia.




www.iltalehti.fi












Järkyttävää epäonnea: Antti Vikström oli lähellä voittoa, kunnes jousi hajosi – ”20 vuoden aikana ei ole käynyt näin, ja nyt kaksi kertaa olympialaisissa”


Antti Vikström putosi jatkosta dramaattisesti.




www.is.fi












Onni hylkäsi jousiampuja Antti Vikströmin ratkaisevalla hetkellä pudotuskierroksella Tokion olympialaisissa – Johtoasema mureni, kun jousi hajosi viimeisessä sarjassa


Oulaisista kotoisin oleva, Haapavedellä terveyskeskuslääkärinä työskentelevä jousiampuja Antti Vikström putosi jatkosta ensimmäisellä pudotuskierroksella Tokion olympialaisissa keskiviikkoaamuna. Vikström hävisi Malesian Khairul Anuar Mohamadille numeroin 5–6.




www.haapavesi-lehti.fi


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

How many bows did he bring?
He started out using the green riser during the qualification round then switched to the gold one partway through.
Then he had the white one after the limb on the orange one failed during his match.
For someone who's never had a limb fail in 20 years that seems like a lot of spares - maybe his coach dashed out to the nearest shop after the first failure?
He mentioned the heat as a possible cause though there were dozens of others using the Velo's so it seems more like exceptionally bad luck. Looking at the climate in Oulu it doesn't sound like the limbs would have had much worse thermal cycling than in other parts of the world, even if he shot outside during the winter.


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## BeiterBiter (Aug 11, 2021)

cerelestecerele said:


> How many bows did he bring?


Antti brought two bows to the Olympics and the third bow he was shooting, was put together by Antti and his coach on location after the first limb breakage occurred.



cerelestecerele said:


> He mentioned the heat as a possible cause


Temperatures in Tokyo were probably the highest that his limbs were ever exposed to, so this sounds like a reasonable assumption.


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## BeiterBiter (Aug 11, 2021)

For winter outdoor practice Antti shoots from a heated "shooting shack":


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## hiatus (Aug 12, 2021)

There's an interesting update on Antti's Instagram from two days ago (link via picuki).

Antti won the national championships, of course, but check the second picture for his weapon of choice. There riser looks like the green one he used at Tokyo and the limbs look like velos although the picture is a relatively blurry?










Anyway, according to his IG, the green bow was just seven months old, the golden one was at least a year older. So it's unlikely the limbs would have come from the same batch.


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## BeiterBiter (Aug 11, 2021)

For whatever it's worth, it looks like Antti is still using Hoyt limbs. This photo is from last weekend when he won the Finnish national championships:


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