# Contingency Money in 3D



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

bowtech54 said:


> i have been reading all of the posts concerning bow companies stopping contingency pay outs in 3d. Well, if that's true, we control sales and profit for each archery company. If contingency is an issue, there's a simple solution: Buy bows and archery equipment from those that help and support the shooters. Sales dictate the market. As i stated earlier, if contingency payouts are an issue, don't support those companies that don't support the shooter.


amen brother!


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bowtech54 said:


> I have been reading all of the posts concerning bow companies stopping contingency pay outs in 3D. Well, if that's true, we control sales and profit for each archery company. If contingency is an issue, there's a simple solution: Buy bows and archery equipment from those that help and support the shooters. Sales dictate the market. As I stated earlier, if contingency payouts are an issue, don't support those companies that don't support the shooter.


Well said! Totally agree
DB


----------



## tecshooter (Oct 29, 2003)

Here's my question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but strictly from the pro standpoint what good does being so publicly angry do besides burn bridges? I totally understand being VERY upset, and you should be, but what happens if things take a 180, things are reconsidered and they have one of the best contingency plans in 5 years? Anything put on the internet now is there forever. If it were constant equipment failures, I would post that everywhere, but this is a management issue and can change in a heartbeat.


----------



## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

We can also change some prefer to buy American some want to support companies that pay con.some like 3 d sp much they know that when a company decides not to pay it.it takes 3d a step backwards.so if we support the ones that get behind 3d we step forward and it will grow.


----------



## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

Nobody is upset, it all boils down to, support those manufacturers that support 3D. I have grandchildren that love to shoot 3D and I will support those companies that are trying to grow the sport.


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

I understand the contingency issues going on and that those affected are upset at how it went down and the timing of Hoyt's decision for the cuts. BUT, I don't get this "they don't support archery" statement at all. I still see them listed as shoot sponsors on the schedules. Isn't that "support"? I still see their ads and promos pushing the hunting side of things, does that not support archery? I shoot and love the 3-d side also,. Not at the level of those affected but I get out of it what I have time to put into it. There are many things that Hoyt does to "support archery" ' just their choice to cut back in one area.


----------



## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

If, and I say if, they chose not to pay contingency how are they helping other than buying an ad in the program. The contingency to pro's & am's help generate more interest for the sport which in turn sells increase. Hunting and 3D are like comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Bowtech54 said:


> If, and I say if, they chose not to pay contingency how are they helping other than buying an ad in the program. The contingency to pro's & am's help generate more interest for the sport which in turn sells increase. Hunting and 3D are like comparing apples to oranges.


As far as I know, they didn't pay contingency to Ams, just the Pros. I am not talking program ads but are they not Tournament sponsors in the ASA and NFAA marked 3-D and Gold sponsors in IBO? I guess I am just saying that my thoughts are sponsoring a major tournament for the ASA seems like supporting archery. Just in a different manner I guess.


----------



## jt12 (Aug 30, 2009)

hrtlnd164 said:


> As far as I know, they didn't pay contingency to Ams, just the Pros. I am not talking program ads but are they not Tournament sponsors in the ASA and NFAA marked 3-D and Gold sponsors in IBO? I guess I am just saying that my thoughts are sponsoring a major tournament for the ASA seems like supporting archery. Just in a different manner I guess.


no thats not supporting archery thats supporting themselves. Thats advertising. Why can't they give back to the people who shoot thier products. As much as you have to pay for bows they should have a little left over to pay contingency to more than just the pro classes.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

tecshooter said:


> Here's my question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but strictly from the pro standpoint what good does being so publicly angry do besides burn bridges? I totally understand being VERY upset, and you should be, but what happens if things take a 180, things are reconsidered and they have one of the best contingency plans in 5 years? Anything put on the internet now is there forever. If it were constant equipment failures, I would post that everywhere, but this is a management issue and can change in a heartbeat.



Yes I agree but what pro publicly trashed Hoyt. I thank Hoyt for what the support they have given the pros. It just sucks that the contingency was cut with such short notice. Thats aggravating but I dont think its just there responsibility to pay big money to archers. I really feel likes its the organizations duties to go after bigger sponsors. I know they have alot on there plate also but if the orgs want the sport to grow (and I think they do) then they should try to reach bigger sponsors like Dodge(huge outdoor sponsor rt now), atv manufactures etc. I guarantee you there are larger sponsors out there. 
Jame


----------



## tecshooter (Oct 29, 2003)

Jame said:


> Yes I agree but what pro publicly trashed Hoyt. I thank Hoyt for what the support they have given the pros. It just sucks that the contingency was cut with such short notice. Thats aggravating but I dont think its just there responsibility to pay big money to archers. I really feel likes its the organizations duties to go after bigger sponsors. I know they have alot on there plate also but if the orgs want the sport to grow (and I think they do) then they should try to reach bigger sponsors like Dodge(huge outdoor sponsor rt now), atv manufactures etc. I guarantee you there are larger sponsors out there.
> Jame


No pro has gone that far (yet), and my wish would be for it to remain that way! It seems people would like to provoke a pro, not just you, to go so far as to bash, and like I said that would be a horrible business decision for anyone if things took an upturn. I also know that it wasn't just contingency that was cut for a lot of you guys, so there is ample fuel for the fire. But in fairness to Hoyt, and I don't agree with their decision, they are not the only one to do this. I know of two individuals through two different manufacturers who never received the contingency money owed to them at all. 

Your post above basically sums up my thoughts on pay/sponsorships as well. For 3D, I would even take it further. Since it is hunting related I said in another thread that the IBO/ASA should basically hire the hunting celebrities to come to the shoots for at least meet and greet or autograph sessions. This alone would bring more people through the gates and generate revenue for the manufactures midway and the organization. Like you said, link this with the draw of larger sponsors and the paychecks for you guys would have nothing to do but increase. Then contingency would actually be just icing on the cake.


----------



## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

Well I guess I might raise a little fur for saying this, but.....I think people should shoot the equipment that they do because it's what they feel works best for their needs or in many cases their buget. Too many people shoot certain equipment just because of the promotional discounts, or "free" stuff. Nothing is FREE!!!! Companies that spend money for these promotional types of things are not loosing it from their bottom line profit. They are simply charging more for the products they sell to everyone to cover these costs. With all the new high volume low cost (also low quality in many cases) companies in the archery product market today the bigger high quality companies need to sell what they do for more competative prices. In order to keep the quality at the current levels and control the price to sell their products competitively, the "free" stuff has to get cut.


----------



## NCstick (Aug 14, 2011)

As a new 3D shooter, the money pay outs are very intriguing but, I want the bow that "I" shoot with the best. I shoot a Prime Centroid and I know I posted asking if they pay out. That was out of curiosity really. I shoot the bow because I do well with it and much better than any other bow. I under stand wanting T&J get paid but, what happened to just plain wanting to win! Win enough and they will pay you right?


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

"Win enough and they will pay you right?"
Don't know... But, I think being involved in one of the best shoot downs in years and putting on one of the best shows an ASA crowd has ever seen in years is enough! Your average shooter couldn't have held his own like Jame did against Levi. I was there and he was phenomenal.


----------



## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

How many companies have cut their payouts


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bowtech54 said:


> I have been reading all of the posts concerning bow companies stopping contingency pay outs in 3D. Well, if that's true, we control sales and profit for each archery company. If contingency is an issue, there's a simple solution: Buy bows and archery equipment from those that help and support the shooters. Sales dictate the market. As I stated earlier, if contingency payouts are an issue, don't support those companies that don't support the shooter.


Rambling......

But then what does Hoyt sell more of, target bows or hunting bows? Hoyt reduced their contengency money, not cut it out altogether.

And what about other bow companies that don't pay out contingency money or dang little? Bowtech, Darton, Martin, Pearson, Ross, Prime, Elite? Do we not buy their product to pressure them to hand out pay checks? I think not. Least it isn't being done that I know of.....

Okay, I don't know and then I do. I know some staff shooters get bows free or at factory cost. 2 and 3 and I heard yesterday, 5 bows. 5 bows?!!!! Excuse me, something is wrong here. And the next year they get another 2, 3, or 5 bows. What happens to the last year's bow? Sold to someone for next nothing or given away and the company loses a sale(s), right?
And don't tell this doesn't happen, slightly shot or unfired bows sold for next nothing. I've bought them.....


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> And don't tell this doesn't happen, slightly shot or unfired bows sold for next nothing. I've bought them.....


i know that, Sonny. livin' proof...thanks again. :thumbs_up:cheers:


----------



## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

3d archery vs. growth = WHAT? I love this sport and I want the competition side to grow for our future shooters that are coming up in the ranks. These companies need to be a part of the long term process. Ladies and gentlemann look at the price of shooting archery. Those that are willing to work for sponsorship.....more power to them. By the way I haven't mentioned any bow company or manufacturer.


----------



## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

Bowtech54 said:


> 3d archery vs. growth = WHAT? I love this sport and I want the competition side to grow for our future shooters that are coming up in the ranks. These companies need to be a part of the long term process. Ladies and gentlemann look at the price of shooting archery. Those that are willing to work for sponsorship.....more power to them. By the way I haven't mentioned any bow company or manufacturer.



Many companies have supported the sport for years!!!! Yet you threaten to turn your back on them as soon as they try to do the responsible thing by.......Making sure they survive to have a future in the long term process!

The economic future for companies right now look less desirable than it did 10 years ago. I commend any company that supports or ever has supported this sport. I just hope they can survive to be here for the "future shooters that are coming up in the ranks".


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bowtech54 said:


> 3d archery vs. growth = WHAT? I love this sport and I want the competition side to grow for our future shooters that are coming up in the ranks. These companies need to be a part of the long term process. Ladies and gentlemann look at the price of shooting archery. Those that are willing to work for sponsorship.....more power to them. By the way I haven't mentioned any bow company or manufacturer.


No one wants archery to back slide or not be there in the future.
Already said, bow companies have been supporting archery since day one. And Hoyt and others have been doing so before many of today's archery companies have come into being.



Bowtech54 said:


> "Ladies and gentlemann look at the price of shooting archery.
> 
> 
> > The price of archery is no different than any other sport/hobby. You want it, you'll find the means. The "price" can be; time, time from family, practice til you drop, coaches and dollars. Dollar wise, cost of equipment/arrows is actually pretty inexpensive compared to firearms sports. I mean, at least the same arrow can be re-shot quite a few times. Bullets and pellets going down range and gone....


----------



## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

I quess I'm looking at it wrong.............marketing the product????........Hunters and Archers sharing stories is the best advertising a company can have. Alot of Am's get sponsored and those folks help sell archer equipmet. I know times are tough but cutting contingencies(money or equipment)and increasing prices is hard for me to support those companies.


----------



## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

I shoot to have fun, whether I am shooting for someone or not, I have fun. It's not about money to me. I don't see cutting money and raising prices though


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Bowtech54 said:


> I quess I'm looking at it wrong.............marketing the product????........Hunters and Archers sharing stories is the best advertising a company can have. Alot of Am's get sponsored and those folks help sell archer equipmet. I know times are tough but cutting contingencies(money or equipment)and increasing prices is hard for me to support those companies.


People have to understand, contingency money is a gift, NOT a given. I have seen companies have to fold/ or deminish the amount they offer for contingency....People seem, at times feel it is slap in the face . Mostly because they feel entitled to the offered monies. 


Some companies need to restucture their advertising dollars of which this comes out of in the marketing share. Growth, developement, expenditures all have a play in the P & L statement.


----------



## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks to everyone that participated in this post. It's great to hear how the archery family share their differrent thoughts and concerns. Hope everyone has a Safe and Happy Holidays.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> People have to understand, contingency money is a gift, NOT a given. I have seen companies have to fold/ or deminish the amount they offer for contingency....People seem, at times feel it is slap in the face . Mostly because they feel entitled to the offered monies.
> 
> Some companies need to restucture their advertising dollars of which this comes out of in the marketing share. Growth, developement, expenditures all have a play in the P & L statement.


mainly cause people are greedy.In this day and age nothing is given as far as money is concerned. No matter what company you work for if you got a raise or christmas bonus last year does it mean you will get one this year.NO so why should it be any different for archery.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Contingency Money in 3DReply to Thread.*



bhtr3d said:


> People have to understand, contingency money is a gift, NOT a given. I have seen companies have to fold/ or deminish the amount they offer for contingency....People seem, at times feel it is slap in the face . Mostly because they feel entitled to the offered monies.
> 
> 
> Some companies need to restucture their advertising dollars of which this comes out of in the marketing share. Growth, developement, expenditures all have a play in the P & L statement.


Well said......


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Contingency have been proven from Mathews they work.

Mathews and manufactuers who diffiantly support archers whether its youth like nasp or the tournament archer and hunting staff will always continue to be leaders in the industry.

Amazing how some call it greed. It good sense to support those who buy the bows.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Contingency have been proven from Mathews they work.
> 
> Mathews and manufactuers who diffiantly support archers whether its youth like nasp or the tournament archer and hunting staff will always continue to be leaders in the industry.
> 
> Amazing how some call it greed. It good sense to support those who buy the bows.


never said contigency does not work.Can you honestly say that if you work for a company(on the payroll) and they gave you a bonus last year that they will do it this year to show support of there workers? A bonus or contency is just that nothing more and with todays economy it is not a given.
I am sure hoyt still has a staff and give some of their shooters bows or give them at a discount so they are supporting archers.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> never said contigency does not work.Can you honestly say that if you work for a company(on the payroll) and they gave you a bonus last year that they will do it this year to show support of there workers? A bonus or contency is just that nothing more and with todays economy it is not a given.
> I am sure hoyt still has a staff and give some of their shooters bows or give them at a discount so they are supporting archers.


Amazing when I was running jobs as an electrician and companys that rewarded me for bringing the job in below budget. I earned that bonus and it wasnt something they gave me. Same for contingincys. Reward those who are winning and winning is the best advertisement. JUst a thought! Hoyt and manufactuers can do what they feel best. Think they certianly made a bold statement about the sport of 3d when they made there dissission.
DB
DB


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

most of the above arguments are ridiculous and without premise.

i have yet to see how one or two companies reducing contingency money is even remotely related to the growth of the sport. people dont get into archery for contingency money, in fact, i bet 99% of anyone who buys a bow has ever heard of it, let alone keep them from getting into the sport. the only thing it may change is a semipro or pro may change companies, but that bow "sale" is still intact. I highly doubt many competitive archers will simply give up the sport because of the loss.

the question is if reducing contingency money will affect a single company's bottom line profit.. not sales, but profit... i dunno, but if hoyt sees a loss in profit and finds that the contingency money reduction is the cause, then they will weight the math and change course if it makes sense.


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Bucks said:


> most of the above arguments are ridiculous and without premise.
> 
> i have yet to see how one or two companies reducing contingency money is even remotely related to the growth of the sport. people dont get into archery for contingency money, in fact, i bet 99% of anyone who buys a bow has ever heard of it, let alone keep them from getting into the sport. the only thing it may change is a semipro or pro may change companies, but that bow "sale" is still intact. I highly doubt many competitive archers will simply give up the sport because of the loss.
> 
> the question is if reducing contingency money will affect a single company's bottom line profit.. not sales, but profit... i dunno, but if hoyt sees a loss in profit and finds that the contingency money reduction is the cause, then they will weight the math and change course if it makes sense.


Yes...:thumbs_up


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

If the economy was doing significantly better, this wouldn't be an issue. Business will trim cost where ever they can to keep their profit margin and in a slumping economy, bonus checks are one of the first to go.

if the company you work for decided not to give out bonus checks this year, are you going to quit?


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> If the economy was doing significantly better, this wouldn't be an issue. Business will trim cost where ever they can to keep their profit margin and in a slumping economy, bonus checks are one of the first to go.
> 
> if the company you work for decided not to give out bonus checks this year, are you going to quit?


exactly


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

Didn't another bow company a few years ago lower the amount of contigency it was offering to PMR back in 2008 or 2009? If Hoyt has lowered its contigency isn't it to the PMR class. Haven't heard from any Pro Female or Senior Pros. They haven't stopped contigency completely just lowered the dollar amount, thus they haven't stopped supporting archery. Just look at the advertisement for the Lancaster Classic, "live feed sponsored by Hoyt".


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bucks said:


> most of the above arguments are ridiculous and without premise.
> 
> i have yet to see how one or two companies reducing contingency money is even remotely related to the growth of the sport. people dont get into archery for contingency money, in fact, i bet 99% of anyone who buys a bow has ever heard of it, let alone keep them from getting into the sport. the only thing it may change is a semipro or pro may change companies, but that bow "sale" is still intact. I highly doubt many competitive archers will simply give up the sport because of the loss.
> 
> the question is if reducing contingency money will affect a single company's bottom line profit.. not sales, but profit... i dunno, but if hoyt sees a loss in profit and finds that the contingency money reduction is the cause, then they will weight the math and change course if it makes sense.


Celebrate the move because actually it wont effect you! Only effect those who have worked there butts to win for Hoyt.

DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

NYS REP said:


> Didn't another bow company a few years ago lower the amount of contigency it was offering to PMR back in 2008 or 2009? If Hoyt has lowered its contigency isn't it to the PMR class. Haven't heard from any Pro Female or Senior Pros. They haven't stopped contigency completely just lowered the dollar amount, thus they haven't stopped supporting archery. Just look at the advertisement for the Lancaster Classic, "live feed sponsored by Hoyt".


No worries it really only effects those few who for years supported Hoyt. Most posting here couldnt win a contingency 3d check. Hoyt shooters can wave those $3000.00 checks next to Mathews/PSE Bigtime checks. Should be awesome advertising for them

DB
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

But so many happy people......

This past weekend; Team Hoyt members Tim Gillingham, Reo Wilde, Logan Wilde, Tony Harbaugh and Hoyt's very own Steve Anderson for posting perfect 600's at the Utah Open.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> But so many happy people......
> 
> This past weekend; Team Hoyt members Tim Gillingham, Reo Wilde, Logan Wilde, Tony Harbaugh and Hoyt's very own Steve Anderson for posting perfect 600's at the Utah Open.


Atleast one 3d shooter in that bunch. What would you feel to find in UTAH? Will see how many of those all Hoyt we find come ASA 3d season.
DB
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Atleast one 3d shooter in that bunch. What would you feel to find in UTAH? Will see how many of those all Hoyt we find come ASA 3d season.
> DB
> DB


I don't know of one person that likes what has happened or is going to happen. The thing is this reduction of contingency is no different than what people experience throughout our United States. Layoffs, cutbacks, plant closings, and we all seem to go on living. Work requirements, days, hours, going nuts. 10 hour work days, two days off and start all over again so weekends float throughout the week (been there, done that). Metal craft plant a friend of mine works at, Tuesday through Saturday is his 5 day work week. Required continuous work, 29 days before given a day off (been there, done that). Work conditions, so smokey you can't see from one end of the isle to the other (been there, done that), but some archery clubs won't let you smoke even in the parking lot. No smoking on their club property, period . For the non-smoking FITA Championship, 5 of us didn't go.

Nope, not near good enough to compete in the Pro class, but have a opinion just like many others. And how many Pros have spoken up publicly?


----------



## Rnfrazier (Sep 7, 2008)

And here I thought archery was about comradery and having fun


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't know of one person that likes what has happened or is going to happen. The thing is this reduction of contingency is no different than what people experience throughout our United States. Layoffs, cutbacks, plant closings, and we all seem to go on living. Work requirements, days, hours, going nuts. 10 hour work days, two days off and start all over again so weekends float throughout the week (been there, done that). Metal craft plant a friend of mine works at, Tuesday through Saturday is his 5 day work week. Required continuous work, 29 days before given a day off (been there, done that). Work conditions, so smokey you can't see from one end of the isle to the other (been there, done that), but some archery clubs won't let you smoke even in the parking lot. No smoking on their club property, period . For the non-smoking FITA Championship, 5 of us didn't go.
> 
> Nope, not near good enough to compete in the Pro class, but have a opinion just like many others. And how many Pros have spoken up publicly?


Just like anything. Archers dont have to like it either. Why would a pro come speak publicly here? Just had one of the best pros in the world tell me he not posting here any more because of insults. I dont blame them.

They all try to post and be helpfull to only be told there idiots. Then there plenty here that like to bash a pro anytime they get a chance.
DB


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

NYS REP said:


> Didn't another bow company a few years ago lower the amount of contigency it was offering to PMR back in 2008 or 2009? If Hoyt has lowered its contigency isn't it to the PMR class. Haven't heard from any Pro Female or Senior Pros. They haven't stopped contigency completely just lowered the dollar amount, thus they haven't stopped supporting archery. Just look at the advertisement for the Lancaster Classic, "live feed sponsored by Hoyt".


But apparantly, a manufacturer only 'supports' archery when they don't lower contingencies, and at a minimum, keep them equal to other manufacturers. All the other support of archery, which includes continued support to the few, like equipment, other compensation, etc, including the chance to win additional cash IF they win the shoot, is not really supporting archery or those individuals.

Funny, often that same support and loyalty is not a 2 way street. How often to we hear about people switching sponsors after years of that sponsor supporting the person? More money, sure, and I don't have a problem with people doing something that they think is in their benefit (same applies to the manufacturers too). But what about loyalty to the manufacturer that supported the individual, and helped them get there.

Then the question arises...support the few, or reach the many? Which is a better business model to pursue? Throw money into a basically regional venue, or focus on the much biogger picture. There's a reason TV ads during the Super Bowl are so high...they reach a ton of people. Contingency payments reach very few...both the individual and the promotion. Where's the bigger return? 

Growth? Growth or archery or growth of 3-D? The biggest recent growth in archery had nutt'n to do with 'actual' archery. It was spawned by 2 Hollywood movies. Not pros, not ams, not venues, not sponsors and not contingency. How much can 3-D (speaking of the 2 major orgs) really grow if they do little to expand their footprint? Staying in the same region, ad nauseum does nothing to promote growth in the rest of the US or the world. A business decision was made (probably the right one) to not expand that footprint. I'm all for archery, including 3-D, but when the orgs for 3-D conciously decide to 'ignore 1/2 the country, and the rest of the world, the world of 3-D will continue to be a small fish in a big pond. Advertisement / sponsorship of venues and individuals in 3-D simply does little to reach the majority of the market. Even assuming a robust economy, the reach of this manufacturer involvement is limited, compared to other venues that are practice throughout the US and the world.

But yes, reduction of 'what ifs' does not equate to no longer supporting archery or archers...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

We wonder why pros dont post here any more. Dont effect you its Ok to accept it.
DB


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Other than 1 person who posted on this thread, who may be affected by this decision (a post that was very well thought out and pretty much spot on IMO btw)...How many other people who are so incensed by this decision that may result in a lower contingency payment IF something happens...are directly affected by the decision?

Nothing that has been posted in this thread, or all the others has been disparaging of the pros, or their accomplishments, or not generally understanding that ...yeah, it sucks that the contingency was lowerd in the event that a win was accomplished...yet anyone who has postd with logic, a general understanding of business, and a big picture view, is deemed by others to be critical of the pros, even i they are not a pro themselves...


----------



## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> We wonder why pros dont post here any more. Dont effect you its Ok to accept it.
> DB


No! We know why they don't post here, you and many others wore them out!


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> We wonder why pros dont post here any more. Dont effect you its Ok to accept it.
> DB


time in and time out i have seen a certain person on here tell others that its a discussion if you dont like peoples opinions you dont have to read it. hmmmmmmmmm i guess that is not a 2 way street


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Just like anything. Archers dont have to like it either. Why would a pro come speak publicly here? Just had one of the best pros in the world tell me he not posting here any more because of insults. I dont blame them.
> DB


Went over your head with that one, Pros speaking up over the contingency thing. It was kind of a of loaded question. If I were a Pro I wouldn't speak up either. If on the Pro staff don't bad mouth the one paying you. If wanting back on the Pro Staff, yeah, keep mouth shut. If wanting to shoot for, keep mouth shut. That pretty much follows across the archery trade, don't speak badly of a present sponsor or possible future or past sponsor.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Went over your head with that one, Pros speaking up over the contingency thing. It was kind of a of loaded question. If I were a Pro I wouldn't speak up either. If on the Pro staff don't bad mouth the one paying you. If wanting back on the Pro Staff, yeah, keep mouth shut. If wanting to shoot for, keep mouth shut. That pretty much follows across the archery trade, don't speak badly of a present sponsor or possible future or past sponsor.


Sad that often how it is in archery and here for most pros all for good reasons. Remember when we had the pros posting here at one time. Lose them one by one once again. Just ask them they tell you and give the answer why they dont posts.


DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

varmintvaporize said:


> No! We know why they don't post here, you and many others wore them out!


I have supported pros and encouraged them to post for many years. 
DB


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Went over your head with that one, Pros speaking up over the contingency thing. It was kind of a of loaded question. If I were a Pro I wouldn't speak up either. If on the Pro staff don't bad mouth the one paying you. If wanting back on the Pro Staff, yeah, keep mouth shut. If wanting to shoot for, keep mouth shut. That pretty much follows across the archery trade, don't speak badly of a present sponsor or possible future or past sponsor.


Across pretty much every trade and profession really.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Looking forward to seeing these former Hoyt pros winning for a awesome manufacture who willing to back them in 3D.

Really happy other manufactures were more then willing to pick up these pros.

Honestly say I never thought I would see some of these guys wearing anything but red. 

Always easy to go along with ever thing if doesn't involve you.:thumbs_do Most will never understand what its like to be a pro archer.

DB


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Celebrate the move because actually it wont effect you! Only effect those who have worked there butts to win for Hoyt.
> 
> DB


oh gimme a break. they dont win for Hoyt, they win for themselves and Hoyt buys the ride on the coat tails. they are free agents and many will change loyalties with the paycheck. this is not meant as a disparaging remark in the least towards very talented and hardworking athletes, just the landscape.

i am all for them making as much money as they can, at the same time, a company always has the right to make business decisions.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bucks said:


> oh gimme a break. they dont win for Hoyt, they win for themselves and Hoyt buys the ride on the coat tails.


Really, so the guy that shot Hoyts for 20yrs and never won a dime. Finally wins is just riding a coat tail. 

I thought they were representing Hoyt. You got this pro thing down.
DB


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Why should ANY bow manufacturer pay contigency money to anybody? All a bow manufacturer owes the public is the best bow it can make at the cheapest price and good customer service after the sale. That's all they owe anybody. If they choose to have things like contingency money or sponsoring a pro team or a tournament that is a great plus but they don't OWE anybody none of that stuff. 
3D in general and 3D pros in particular are such a small segment of the market I doubt if Hoyt will miss it. Hunting market has ALWAYs been the bread and butter of archery, not 3D.


----------



## zachw (Sep 28, 2010)

Punch_Master said:


> Why should ANY bow manufacturer pay contigency money to anybody? All a bow manufacturer owes the public is the best bow it can make at the cheapest price and good customer service after the sale. That's all they owe anybody. If they choose to have things like contingency money or sponsoring a pro team or a tournament that is a great plus but they don't OWE anybody none of that stuff.


I would take that a step further. A bow company doesn't owe the public anything. You get in business to build wealth, not necessarily offer the best product at the cheapest price. That may be your strategy to make the most money, but it's surely not owed to us.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

zachw said:


> I would take that a step further. A bow company doesn't owe the public anything. You get in business to build wealth, not necessarily offer the best product at the cheapest price. That may be your strategy to make the most money, but it's surely not owed to us.


Not even good customer service after the sale?


----------



## zachw (Sep 28, 2010)

*Punch_Master quoted your post in thread "Contingency Money in 3D" - Archery Talk*



Punch_Master said:


> Not even good customer service after the sale?


Not necessarily, but it's a requirement to selling the product. If customer service didn't build loyalty and increase sales companies wouldn't spend millions on it. It's surely not born of altruism


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Why should ANY bow manufacturer pay contigency money to anybody? All a bow manufacturer owes the public is the best bow it can make at the cheapest price and good customer service after the sale. That's all they owe anybody. If they choose to have things like contingency money or sponsoring a pro team or a tournament that is a great plus but they don't OWE anybody none of that stuff.
> 3D in general and 3D pros in particular are such a small segment of the market I doubt if Hoyt will miss it. Hunting market has ALWAYs been the bread and butter of archery, not 3D.





zachw said:


> I would take that a step further. A bow company doesn't owe the public anything. You get in business to build wealth, not necessarily offer the best product at the cheapest price. That may be your strategy to make the most money, but it's surely not owed to us.


You guys just simply don't understand, don't get it, can't appreciate it, and your opinion don't matter because you will never have the chance to experience it, and it doesn't affect you. ukey:

Who cares if the money is diverted for other means...other archery venues...other support...don't matter, it's still not supporting archery...and no, we don't expect that same loyalty back to the company that supported the affected before...cuz they don't have to do that...I mean it ain't a 2 way street...


----------



## zachw (Sep 28, 2010)

Rolo said:


> You guys just simply don't understand, don't get it, can't appreciate it, and your opinion don't matter because you will never have the chance to experience it, and it doesn't affect you. ukey:


Whatever you're saying...you're right, I will never get it.

And I'll qualify my other post by saying that I don't believe companies are out to screw anyone (for the most part) but that revenue (or profit) drives everything.


----------



## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

DB, you're an electrician, correct?

are you familiar with Thomas&Betts, Greenlee, Ideal, Fluke, Gardner Bender or Klein?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
how many times has any of those companies ever given you a contingency for completing a contract?

same thing.....a bow is a tool used by a professional. it doesnt mean that the manufacturer is required by trade-right to 'support' the tradesman(archer) in his pursuit of income, personal achievement and happiness in any other way than to supply the best equipment to perform the job as required by the tradesman(archer).


----------



## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

rock monkey said:


> DB, you're an electrician, correct?
> 
> are you familiar with Thomas&Betts, Greenlee, Ideal, Fluke, Gardner Bender or Klein?
> .
> ...



Well said!


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Why should ANY bow manufacturer pay contigency money to anybody? All a bow manufacturer owes the public is the best bow it can make at the cheapest price and good customer service after the sale. That's all they owe anybody. If they choose to have things like contingency money or sponsoring a pro team or a tournament that is a great plus but they don't OWE anybody none of that stuff.
> 3D in general and 3D pros in particular are such a small segment of the market I doubt if Hoyt will miss it. Hunting market has ALWAYs been the bread and butter of archery, not 3D.


Contingency earned not given. Let atleast agree you must win to get it. Manufacture asking for you to win!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> DB, you're an electrician, correct?
> 
> are you familiar with Thomas&Betts, Greenlee, Ideal, Fluke, Gardner Bender or Klein?
> .
> ...


Electricians not a sport about winning and who the best. Big difference. Like I said it only effects a few of the best archers who can actually win. They will move on and do well. Most of us arent effected by this at all.

Wish those pros all the best and plan to support them all I can.
DB


----------



## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

i'm just curious......

was there a secret meeting somewhere that appointed you as the spokesperson for ALL professional archers and contract negotiations?


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> i'm just curious......
> 
> was there a secret meeting somewhere that appointed you as the spokesperson for ALL professional archers and contract negotiations?


Im just here to support my fellow pro archers. Ill stand behind my believes and I suggest you do the same. 
DB


----------



## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im just here to support my fellow pro archers. Ill stand behind my believes and I suggest you do the same.
> DB


dont quit your day job.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> dont quit your day job.


Don't you worry about me! Been supporting the pros from day one here.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> dont quit your day job.


Don't you worry about me! Been supporting the pros from day one here. Keep shooting field archery.

Good to see you in 3d forum. Looking forward to seeing you at some of the ASA next year.
DB


----------



## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Don't you worry about me! Been supporting the pros from day one here. Keep shooting field archery.
> 
> Good to see you in 3d forum. Looking forward to seeing you at some of the ASA next year.
> DB


Not gonna happen. Im an IBO member for reasons not related to the shoots.

I'll shoot my field game and do that work at the club. Some people still shoot for the fun of it instead of the paydays.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> Not gonna happen. Im an IBO member for reasons not related to the shoots.
> 
> I'll shoot my field game and do that work at the club. Some people still shoot for the fun of it instead of the paydays.


Some of shoot for fun because we wouldnt have a chance to win contingency. Congrats to those who are that good.
DB


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> time in and time out i have seen a certain person on here tell others that its a discussion if you dont like peoples opinions you dont have to read it. hmmmmmmmmm i guess that is not a 2 way street


Thank you!!! Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Supermag1 said:


> Thank you!!! Couldn't have said it better myself.


Yelp that person thinks what he say is the way it should be chiseled in stone. Give me a freakn break lol


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> Yelp that person thinks what he say is the way it should be chiseled in stone. Give me a freakn break lol





You guys don't worry about what I think so much!:thumbs_do Its my opinion! Just stick to what you think!



DB


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Contingency earned not given. Let atleast agree you must win to get it. Manufacture asking for you to win!
> DB


Well then shoot for someone who does give contingency money. Hoyt has already determined that the sales you guys bring in aint worth the cost of running the program. Get over yourself. All of you 3D pros together just don't amount to much in the overall scheme of the archery business.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Well then shoot for someone who does give contingency money. Hoyt has already determined that the sales you guys bring in aint worth the cost of running the program. Get over yourself. All of you 3D pros together just don't amount to much in the overall scheme of the archery business.


 Now there honesty. I Like that and being upfront how you truly feel. Kinda got the feeling some of the target tournament guys would find pleasure in anything 3d that will be the demise of it.

Glad Mathews and PSE doesnt share your views. I think they will move on be just fine.

DB

PS

Field and indoor must be where its happening. Dont you think?


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Now there honesty. I Like that and being upfront how you truly feel. Kinda got the feeling some of the target tournament guys would find pleasure in anything 3d that will be the demise of it.
> 
> Glad Mathews and PSE doesnt share your views. I think they will move on be just fine.
> 
> ...


and once again you show how ignorantly wrong you can be. I'm a LONG time IBO 3D shooter not indoor and I can't stand field. You might wanna take the time to get to know someone first before you make assumptions about them that make you look foolish. 
You never know, Hoyt pulled the plug on you, Mathews and PSE might follow suit.


PS: Just for the record, Our archery club makes 20 times more money each year from winter indoor archery leagues and shoots and kids teaching programs than it does from 3D.


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Well then shoot for someone who does give contingency money. Hoyt has already determined that the sales you guys bring in aint worth the cost of running the program. Get over yourself. All of you 3D pros together just don't amount to much in the overall scheme of the archery business.


But how dare a company make a ROI determination and decide that it ain't there, and go another direction that it believes will produce a bigger return. That is just unacceptable. Contingency is 'earned' remember? Of course...contingency hasn't been eliminated, and I have yet to see anyone say that there was a contract or promise that it would continue ad nauseum, at the same level. And then, we get to the other reality...the market that 3-D attracts...a market that is fairly regional, and has remained fairly static. Bad, bad business to look at the other, larger markets...and of course, that absolutely means that any manufacturer or person who understands a simple concept has to be wishing for the demise of 3-D...

And like I said earlier, there is only one person I know of who has posted in this thread that would be impacted by the reduced contingency if he won...he has not posted (rightly) what other support he had received from the manufacturer in the past...you know, the equipment and all that other stuff. But it ain't the vocal one...

Of course...there's the whole analysis of what a 'pro' archer really is...and there are very few that are truly 'pros' by the definition of the word. And, I don't think any of them shoot 3-D as the primary venue of their pro-ship. Maybe 1, but he has a whole lot of other ventures and sponsors that are non-endemoc to tournament archery. Currently, to be a pro, all a person has to do is write a bigger entry fee check...a discussion for another day...but one I'm sure will be taken out of context.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Rolo said:


> But how dare a company make a ROI determination and decide that it ain't there, and go another direction that it believes will produce a bigger return. That is just unacceptable. Contingency is 'earned' remember? Of course...contingency hasn't been eliminated, and I have yet to see anyone say that there was a contract or promise that it would continue ad nauseum, at the same level. And then, we get to the other reality...the market that 3-D attracts...a market that is fairly regional, and has remained fairly static. Bad, bad business to look at the other, larger markets...and of course, that absolutely means that any manufacturer or person who understands a simple concept has to be wishing for the demise of 3-D...
> 
> And like I said earlier, there is only one person I know of who has posted in this thread that would be impacted by the reduced contingency if he won...he has not posted (rightly) what other support he had received from the manufacturer in the past...you know, the equipment and all that other stuff. But it ain't the vocal one...
> 
> Of course...there's the whole analysis of what a 'pro' archer really is...and there are very few that are truly 'pros' by the definition of the word. And, I don't think any of them shoot 3-D as the primary venue of their pro-ship. Maybe 1, but he has a whole lot of other ventures and sponsors that are non-endemoc to tournament archery. Currently, to be a pro, all a person has to do is write a bigger entry fee check...a discussion for another day...but one I'm sure will be taken out of context.


OUCH, That's gonna leave a mark. LOL


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> and once again you show how ignorantly wrong you can be. I'm a LONG time IBO 3D shooter not indoor and I can't stand field. You might wanna take the time to get to know someone first before you make assumptions about them that make you look foolish.
> You never know, Hoyt pulled the plug on you, Mathews and PSE might follow suit.
> 
> 
> PS: Just for the record, Our archery club makes 20 times more money each year from winter indoor archery leagues and shoots and kids teaching programs than it does from 3D.


No assumption here. I read what you said 100%. I like your truthfullness. Im ignoring others here! 

Your correct in what you said. I believe Hoyt diffiantly telling the pros this same thing. 

Your diffiantly right and Hoyt is sending the message loud and clear. Hoyt being 100% honest as well.

Far as leaving a mark like you said. Im betting you thought you wouldnt get an agreement from me. 

Hoyt can certianly do whatever they want. Never once said they couldnt. Ill still congradulate Hoyt pro archers. 

Your opionion and Hoyt is 3d archers dont help one bit and wins isnt inportant is this a true statement like you just said?
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> and once again you show how ignorantly wrong you can be. I'm a LONG time IBO 3D shooter not indoor and I can't stand field. You might wanna take the time to get to know someone first before you make assumptions about them that make you look foolish.
> You never know, Hoyt pulled the plug on you, Mathews and PSE might follow suit.
> 
> 
> PS: Just for the record, Our archery club makes 20 times more money each year from winter indoor archery leagues and shoots and kids teaching programs than it does from 3D.


So making more money is what it all about between indoor and 3d? Your diffiantly right Mathews and others may follow and 3d pro archery may just fall to the wayside. Hoyt may be the leader who knows. My stance will still be the same. I would hope the 3d pros get there contingincy for devoting time and money to win for them on pro level.

PS

Years ago when PSE pretty much did the same thing. I didnt like it then either. Imigine that!


DB


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Rolo said:


> But how dare a company make a ROI determination and decide that it ain't there, and go another direction that it believes will produce a bigger return. That is just unacceptable. Contingency is 'earned' remember? Of course...contingency hasn't been eliminated, and I have yet to see anyone say that there was a contract or promise that it would continue ad nauseum, at the same level. And then, we get to the other reality...the market that 3-D attracts...a market that is fairly regional, and has remained fairly static. Bad, bad business to look at the other, larger markets...and of course, that absolutely means that any manufacturer or person who understands a simple concept has to be wishing for the demise of 3-D...
> 
> And like I said earlier, there is only one person I know of who has posted in this thread that would be impacted by the reduced contingency if he won...he has not posted (rightly) what other support he had received from the manufacturer in the past...you know, the equipment and all that other stuff. But it ain't the vocal one...
> 
> Of course...there's the whole analysis of what a 'pro' archer really is...and there are very few that are truly 'pros' by the definition of the word. And, I don't think any of them shoot 3-D as the primary venue of their pro-ship. Maybe 1, but he has a whole lot of other ventures and sponsors that are non-endemoc to tournament archery. Currently, to be a pro, all a person has to do is write a bigger entry fee check...a discussion for another day...but one I'm sure will be taken out of context.


I hesitate to post here. I don't have a dog in the fight, except I'm friends with a few that are affected. Are you happy that Hoyt has evidently lowered the contingency they offer? Do you applaud them for that? All DB is saying is that he will support companies that offer contingency and companies that haven't reduced their support of 3d archery. As consumers, we get that choice. If it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. I think he is just wanting others to be aware of what has happened.

One thing everybody needs to consider though, if it weren't for Matthews contingency plan years ago, they never would be where they are today. They basically got a bunch of good pros, offered them great contingency, and proceeded to win tons of tournaments and then use that in their advertising. The approach they used was and is highly successful. Only time will tell how Hoyt's approach will affect them.

As far as the 3d organizations not expanding west, man I feel for you. It seems that there is probably some sort of market, maybe a new organization, that should venture west. NABH tried it a little, but they still didn't go very far west very often. It probably wouldn't make financial sense for ASA to leave their core area that far (unless it was for one event per year like it was for several years in the mid 90's.) I would hate to live in a region where I couldn't compete nationally (in 3d) without breaking the bank. I'm sure that stinks. On the bright side, at least you have elk, muleys and pronghorns.


----------



## AZBowhunt (Nov 4, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> You guys don't worry about what I think so much!:thumbs_do Its my opinion! Just stick to what you think!
> 
> 
> 
> DB


No too hard not to worry about what you think, it's what you spout off on here that we get to worry about!


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> So making more money is what it all about between indoor and 3d?


We still have 3D at our club. It hasn't folded. All I'm pointing out is that indoor gets the bigger say in any decisions at our club because it produces the most ROI. You have to go with what pays the bills. Same with bow factories, They cater mainly to the hunting crowd not the 3D crowd. That's why long axle to axle bows are getting harder to find. Hunter's want shorter bows not target archers of any type.


> Your diffiantly right Mathews and others may follow and 3d pro archery may just fall to the wayside. Hoyt may be the leader who knows. My stance will still be the same. I would hope the 3d pros get there contingincy for devoting time and money to win for them on pro level.


Whether 3D lives or dies in the future is all about dollars and cents and little else. I personally don't care if they keep continigency money in the sport or not. (Or even support a pro class or not at all for that matter) My original post just meant that the companies don't OWE us shooters anything at all. Whatever extra benefits we get from them is nothing but icing on the cake and when the gravy train runs out, it runs out. Don't moan about it. Just be thankfull it lasted as long as it did.


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

shootist said:


> I hesitate to post here. I don't have a dog in the fight, except I'm friends with a few that are affected. Are you happy that Hoyt has evidently lowered the contingency they offer? Do you applaud them for that? All DB is saying is that he will support companies that offer contingency and companies that haven't reduced their support of 3d archery. As consumers, we get that choice. If it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. I think he is just wanting others to be aware of what has happened.
> 
> One thing everybody needs to consider though, if it weren't for Matthews contingency plan years ago, they never would be where they are today. They basically got a bunch of good pros, offered them great contingency, and proceeded to win tons of tournaments and then use that in their advertising. The approach they used was and is highly successful. Only time will tell how Hoyt's approach will affect them.
> 
> As far as the 3d organizations not expanding west, man I feel for you. It seems that there is probably some sort of market, maybe a new organization, that should venture west. NABH tried it a little, but they still didn't go very far west very often. It probably wouldn't make financial sense for ASA to leave their core area that far (unless it was for one event per year like it was for several years in the mid 90's.) I would hate to live in a region where I couldn't compete nationally (in 3d) without breaking the bank. I'm sure that stinks. On the bright side, at least you have elk, muleys and pronghorns.


I'm indifferent. But, I also recognize that any business has the right and ability to do what it thinks is in its best interest. If that winds up being a good decision, then great for them. If it is bad, then it will suffer to consequence.

You must also remember, that when DB first brought this issue to light...it was not that "Hoyt was not supporting Pro archers"...it was that Hoyt was not supporting archery. Which was at best an embellishment of the truth and reality. Further, the fact that potential bonus payments (contingency) were cut, does not mean that they were eliminated, or that Hoyt did not support 3-D archery or its sponsored 3-D pros. There's still a contract side, and equipment, and...

I agree, as consumers we get a choice. I agree anyone is free to support (which in this instance, is really purchasing a good) any company they want for whatever reason they want. But, when people publically proclaim utter falsehoods and nonsense, don't you think reality has a place? But I also know that 'pro' shooters regardless of venue, have little affect on the bow sales in my local area. There are no 'pros' there, and really only 1 in the entire State. There isn't even a dealer for the bow he is shooting this year. When he switched a couple years back, the sales for the brand he was shooting eroded, to the point that they are almost non-existent now. But, that is just in his area. A hundred or so miles away...the exact opposite. Point...whether its 3-D or field or indoor, what a pro shoots has little affect on the local market (assumiong no local 'pro'). What TV hunters shoot has far more impact. And what fictional movie Hollywood makes also impacts it. A business pays attention to this, or at least should, and markets accordingly.

Now, I have said before, and I'll say again...I'm sure it sucks to high heaven that the contingency was cut, would suuck even more if a person won, and received the decreased pay-back. But that has little to do with anybody's right to make a business decision.

Yes, the good ol' days of the NABH (back when there were 3 orgs). Followed that org all over the MW, until it ended. It ended for business reasons. Same ones I assume that the ASA and IBO stay where they are. There right to make those decisions. But, you don't hear me lambesting them or promoting over-the-top-of them, or saying that they don't "support 3-D archers" either. But, I also imagine this was a consideration that was also made. When the specific market stays the same, and has for years, what audience is the manufacturers support reaching? Basically, the same one it has reached for the last 5 or more years. No expansion. I also believe that Hoyt is still sponsoring the shoots to some degree or another...

No doubt that Mathews marketing plan worked great...probably caught a lot of the other companies off guard. But this marketing plan was fairly limited to a specific venue, and did not cut across the lines. The marketing plan did not have the same impact on the international market, and Mathews is no where near the impact that Hoyt and even PSE have today. The brutal reality is that 3-D is a very small market in the big scheme of things. In the US, it is undoubtedly hunting that is the driver. Internationally, it is undoubtedly target/Fita that is the driver. As long as the 3-D orgs are unwiulling to expand their base (which is probably the right business decision at least in the short term) it wioll stay that way.

And to some degree, as long as the orgs (all of them really) are not going to broaden the base of sponsorship, and the pros are not goin to help expand this base (to the degree that they can) and wait for companies and sponsors to come to them, it ain't changing. An actual "PAA" re-born with some teeth, incompassing all venues would go a long way to doing this IMO...but I don't think there is a ton of interest even within the pros for this, and there are a ton of competing interests that would have to be let go of for it to work.

It's kinda like the implication that anyone who recognizes that Hoyt, or any opther company had the right to do this iss a 'target' archer, whoi wishes for the demise of 3-D. Which again, is a big long way off from reality...but some people are incapable of actually listening and understanding what is being said, and chose to interpret it however they wish. In other words, its only a discussion if you agree...

But yeah, if someone doesn't want to buy a product from a company because they feel that company somehow slighted someone or something, perfectly fine with me if they do, even if based on incorrect and illogical assumptions...spreading those assumptions as fact, that's a bit of an issue though...that doesn't even address the basic lack of understanding of business analysis and ROI... 

And, you're also right...I'll take the elk over the national 3-D (or any other org) any day and every day.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> We still have 3D at our club. It hasn't folded. All I'm pointing out is that indoor gets the bigger say in any decisions at our club because it produces the most ROI. You have to go with what pays the bills. Same with bow factories, They cater mainly to the hunting crowd not the 3D crowd. That's why long axle to axle bows are getting harder to find. Hunter's want shorter bows not target archers of any type.Whether 3D lives or dies in the future is all about dollars and cents and little else. I personally don't care if they keep continigency money in the sport or not. (Or even support a pro class or not at all for that matter) My original post just meant that the companies don't OWE us shooters anything at all. Whatever extra benefits we get from them is nothing but icing on the cake and when the gravy train runs out, it runs out. Don't moan about it. Just be thankfull it lasted as long as it did.


Glad to hear your clubs doing well. Every one entitled to there opionion. Hope you have a happy holiday and keep teaching them kids.

Often how it is for many pros. Archers dont care because it dont effect them, who cares what happens to the pros. See it here all the time. This is why pros refuse to come here from what they tell me. I myself like to see them supported for many years for devoting years to them. Shame. I doubt Mathews and PSE will follow Hoyt leads. I do think they will get some fine shooters to add to there staff.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

AZBowhunt said:


> No too hard not to worry about what you think, it's what you spout off on here that we get to worry about!


Why you worrying about what I say? Got an opionion for yourself?:thumbs_do Do you make all the political correct posts, good for you!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shootist said:


> I hesitate to post here. I don't have a dog in the fight, except I'm friends with a few that are affected. Are you happy that Hoyt has evidently lowered the contingency they offer? Do you applaud them for that? All DB is saying is that he will support companies that offer contingency and companies that haven't reduced their support of 3d archery. As consumers, we get that choice. If it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. I think he is just wanting others to be aware of what has happened.
> 
> One thing everybody needs to consider though, if it weren't for Matthews contingency plan years ago, they never would be where they are today. They basically got a bunch of good pros, offered them great contingency, and proceeded to win tons of tournaments and then use that in their advertising.  The approach they used was and is highly successful. Only time will tell how Hoyt's approach will affect them.
> 
> As far as the 3d organizations not expanding west, man I feel for you. It seems that there is probably some sort of market, maybe a new organization, that should venture west. NABH tried it a little, but they still didn't go very far west very often. It probably wouldn't make financial sense for ASA to leave their core area that far (unless it was for one event per year like it was for several years in the mid 90's.) I would hate to live in a region where I couldn't compete nationally (in 3d) without breaking the bank. I'm sure that stinks. On the bright side, at least you have elk, muleys and pronghorns.


 Many get it and not hard to understand at all. Only the few pros effected and many could care less about them. I have disscussed it with several and Im diffiantly glad I took my stance and said exactly what I meant. Im not here to try and takes sides with the masses of Hoyt followers. It could have been any manufactuer and I would have felt the same. 
DB


----------



## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Db I am on your side these guys are jerks if they worked for a company and every year they got A Xmas bonus for there hard work and then this year there was no bonuses given out I bet they would not be happy .ten years in a row they receive 2000 dollar bonus this year nothing.besides that the reason they don't shoot Asa they can't win.keep up the fight Db .


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

JimmyP said:


> Db I am on your side these guys are jerks if they worked for a company and every year they got A Xmas bonus for there hard work and then this year there was no bonuses given out I bet they would not be happy .ten years in a row they receive 2000 dollar bonus this year nothing.besides that the reason they don't shoot Asa they can't win.keep up the fight Db .


I have watched Jame Jamison work his tale off promoting Hoyt for years. Just never thought I would see Jame wear anything but red.
I doubt it was ever in his mind as well being loyal. He a good man that I highly regard as a good father/husband as well. I just find it a darn shame this happened. I can name another and few others that bleed Hoyt as well. But there going to move on and be just fine because great shooters over come. There my friends and if I feel they got thrown to the curb, I'm entitled to that opinion.
Really could care less what others think here. Thats my stance. Friends stand by friends!
DB

Jame Classic shoot down and beating Levi on last arrow in 14 ring might well go down as one of the greatest shoot downs ever. 


I honestly think this may drive a fire into him to go win a major indoor event which is so capable of winning. Most dont know but Jame walked away from indoor when he was at his peak. To keep his family together. 60X inside 58X games was a breeze. He still holds the indoor record for Oklahoma. He driven and one heck of archer.


----------



## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I was there too I shoot Mathews to butt Jamie shot so good that day I came away impressed and wowed that day.the best shoot off yet.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

JimmyP said:


> Db I am on your side these guys are jerks if they worked for a company and every year they got A Xmas bonus for there hard work and then this year there was no bonuses given out I bet they would not be happy .ten years in a row they receive 2000 dollar bonus this year nothing.besides that the reason they don't shoot Asa they can't win.keep up the fight Db .


kinda like Clark Griswold at Christmas time, eh?


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Bowtech54 said:


> I have been reading all of the posts concerning bow companies stopping contingency pay outs in 3D. Well, if that's true, we control sales and profit for each archery company. If contingency is an issue, there's a simple solution: Buy bows and archery equipment from those that help and support the shooters. Sales dictate the market. As I stated earlier, if contingency payouts are an issue, don't support those companies that don't support the shooter.


I agree 100%


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

DB, These AT Police are vicious!
I can't always agree with everything you say or anyone else for that matter...
Although, I can't help but agree that the reason the Pros shun this site like the plague is the ATP!
Like a pack of wolves on the scent of blood.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Maybe its the nature of sports. Forget those who worked to help you.

Prime example.

My cousins son Brad Penny wins a world series with the Marlins. Real close to MVP. No one gave them a chance to beat the Yankees.

After the season coach says Brad I hate to tell you but we are trading you.

Never have the Marlins been close to winning ever again.

Brad went on to sign a 10 million dollar deal with LA. Started the all star game one year.

He done so well and Marlins have not. Just won a second ring with Giants.

Sometimes there unanswered prayers in sports.

My hopes this turns out to be the best thing to happen to these future atheletes in archery. One never knows.

Just my thoughts. Time will tell but Im betting Mathews and PSE will continue supporting 3d pros and happy giving them the contingency they deserve.

DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3-D Quest said:


> DB, These AT Police are vicious!
> I can't always agree with everything you say or anyone else for that matter...
> Although, I can't help but agree that the reason the Pros shun this site like the plague is the ATP!
> Like a pack of wolves on the scent of blood.


AT has lost a awesome archery pros here for just these reasons. I wont give the name but was real dissapointed when one told me he wont be back. I honestly told him I truely understand. I understood when Scott Starnes left. I appreceite Eric Griggs and few others like Jame that are true pros who will come here and help. There was a time we had soo many here.
DB


----------



## RJseniorpro (Jan 12, 2009)

Ok, here we go, in the year 2000, Hoyt did the same thing. I shot for Hoyt many years and in the year 2000 they cut all but open pros. I was a senior pro and just came off an extremely good year. After the phone call I received, it was a no brainer, I went to Mathews with a open mind and started working my way up the ladder again. The ladder has been tall, but fun to climb. They have been great to me and my family. I learned a long time ago to not be affected by change in business. adapt and keep enjoying our great sport. Archery has been good to me for 35 years of competing. When I am no longer competitive in the senior pro, I will still be flinging arrows with the same enthusiasm, just in a different class. Be thankful for what we got and I thank Hoyt for many good years. Yes, I was disappointed in 2000, but things work out for the best. It takes alot of hard work, equipment knowledge and an understanding wife to make it to the top in Archery. I thank the good Lord each day for his blessings. Randall


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

RJseniorpro said:


> Ok, here we go, in the year 2000, Hoyt did the same thing. I shot for Hoyt many years and in the year 2000 they cut all but open pros. I was a senior pro and just came off an extremely good year. After the phone call I received, it was a no brainer, I went to Mathews with a open mind and started working my way up the ladder again. The ladder has been tall, but fun to climb. They have been great to me and my family. I learned a long time ago to not be affected by change in business. adapt and keep enjoying our great sport. Archery has been good to me for 35 years of competing. When I am no longer competitive in the senior pro, I will still be flinging arrows with the same enthusiasm, just in a different class. Be thankful for what we got and I thank Hoyt for many good years. Yes, I was disappointed in 2000, but things work out for the best. It takes alot of hard work, equipment knowledge and an understanding wife to make it to the top in Archery. I thank the good Lord each day for his blessings. Randall


Thanks for a view from Pro. Your a class act as so many of the pros are.
DB


----------



## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't get the whole money thing. If you like the bow shoot it. It shouldn't matter if they are giving you money. You should shoot what you like and what you believe in, not the highest bidder


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

BMXRider2011 said:


> I don't get the whole money thing. If you like the bow shoot it. It shouldn't matter if they are giving you money. You should shoot what you like and what you believe in, not the highest bidder


Thats one take.....but you are saying you love your current bow so much 10 grand wont get you to shoot something else?

I hope tjis turns out best for all....

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

I wouldn't switch brands over money


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

RJseniorpro said:


> Ok, here we go, in the year 2000, Hoyt did the same thing. I shot for Hoyt many years and in the year 2000 they cut all but open pros. I was a senior pro and just came off an extremely good year. After the phone call I received, it was a no brainer, I went to Mathews with a open mind and started working my way up the ladder again. The ladder has been tall, but fun to climb. They have been great to me and my family. I learned a long time ago to not be affected by change in business. adapt and keep enjoying our great sport. Archery has been good to me for 35 years of competing. When I am no longer competitive in the senior pro, I will still be flinging arrows with the same enthusiasm, just in a different class. Be thankful for what we got and I thank Hoyt for many good years. Yes, I was disappointed in 2000, but things work out for the best. It takes alot of hard work, equipment knowledge and an understanding wife to make it to the top in Archery. I thank the good Lord each day for his blessings. Randall


Seems reasonable enough. :thumbs_up


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

BMXRider2011 said:


> I don't get the whole money thing. If you like the bow shoot it. It shouldn't matter if they are giving you money. You should shoot what you like and what you believe in, not the highest bidder


Bottom line its not cheap shooting tournaments and paying those entry fees. There a reason they call it pro class those guys are in it to win money, open pros. I tried it for two years and it was expensive in senior pros but so much fun shooting with guys Like Randell and Burly Hall and Tom Crowe. Maybe the most fun I ever had in archery. For me these were guys I idolized growing up with. One thing for sure I respect those guys more now than ever after spending time of the ranges with them. There class acts and encouraging to ever archer out there shooting. 
DB
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

BMXRider2011 said:


> I wouldn't switch brands over money


Really so instead you would rather pay your way in pro class. You realize what it costs to shoot a pro tour a year traveling?
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kind of getting old, this subject. Come 3D season this coming year we will see the results of things. I PMed with DB just a few days ago. I'm not a odds with DB. We just relate of things our own way. But, by his sources and what I've been told the 3D Pro Staff of Hoyt will be cut to the bone. I heard 3 remain at this time.....
I hope all works out for those who went with other manufacturers.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Kind of getting old, this subject. Come 3D season this coming year we will see the results of things. I PMed with DB just a few days ago. I'm not a odds with DB. We just relate of things our own way. But, by his sources and what I've been told the 3D Pro Staff of Hoyt will be cut to the bone. I heard 3 remain at this time.....
> I hope all works out for those who went with other manufacturers.


 Will all see how it works out in time. There so many different opinions how this will turn out. I have heard opinions with current Hoyt staff for 2013 and those who are moving on and everyone has there own ideas and no ones knows the future. 
DB


----------



## tecshooter (Oct 29, 2003)

BMXRider2011 said:


> I don't get the whole money thing. If you like the bow shoot it. It shouldn't matter if they are giving you money. You should shoot what you like and what you believe in, not the highest bidder


Sounds legit, but in reality if you have pro talent, you're in it for both, a quality bow that allows you to shoot winning scores so that you do get paid. Do you remember the Alpine contingency program from a few years ago? Out of nowhere there were a bunch of people shooting an Alpine and it wasn't because they thought they were the best bow out there in many cases. They were a bow that would allow a great shooter score well and get a payback at the same time. If I was a pro and shooting Hoyt, there's little doubt that I would be looking at the other big payers - there really aren't many companies that don't produce a bow capable of a winning score. Especially when the options are Mathews and PSE. I'm sure most Hoyt pros have already shot an Apex 7 or Dominator and made their minds up. Remember that it is a business to them. For the amateurs, you maybe would find some that will shoot what they like, but most will still shoot a bow that promote an amateur payback of some sort.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

If someone is silly enough to bleed a color for any bow manufacturer that is their mistake. I don't even feel that kind of loyalty to my regular job and that has fed me for the last 22 years. Don't get me wrong I like my job there and wish it nothing but the best but in the end it's just a job. I fully realize I can be laid off tommorrow. It's just business and nothing personal. You guys have to get with the 20th century. Companies aren't into the loyalty business. Length of service don't mean squat today.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Punch_Master said:


> If someone is silly enough to bleed a color for any bow manufacturer that is their mistake. I don't even feel that kind of loyalty to my regular job and that has fed me for the last 22 years. Don't get me wrong I like my job there and wish it nothing but the best but in the end it's just a job. I fully realize I can be laid off tommorrow. It's just business and nothing personal. You guys have to get with the 20th century. Companies aren't into the loyalty business. Length of service don't mean squat today.


Very well said and exactly right


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Always admired those pro shooters brand loyal and giving back to the manufactuer who helping them.

DB


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Loyal is defined as, "steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland or government," or "faithful to a person, ideal, etc." Loyal is an adjective. Loyalty is an adverb. Both are lacking in our vocabulary. The noun disloyalty is far more common in today's world.

There's no loyalty in the business world because businesses are more concerned about the bottom line than people. Therefore, companies let hard working and loyal shooters go to increase profits for the big boys. The consequence is decreased loyalty among shooters and their admirers. After all, if you know you are just a number, and someone offers you a better job, why not take it. It's every man for himself.

I’m always amazed at how many companies expect people to work against their own self-interest. Shoot-> using our products with diminished or no possible reward. Well, you can walk around with your favorite manufacturers clothing and logos plastered all over you, looking like a bill board, while they treat you like a mule and share no gains, if you want. That's your prerogative.

Some people just have a natural reservoir of Loyalty because they expect rewards. They have a positive outlook and bust their tail. People like that are leaders and not followers, they are what truly drives the economy and they need perceived rewards to stay engaged over the long haul. 

It isn't very complicated. Companies that are respectful, honest, and give back will have loyal shooters. Companies that want to keep it all for themselves and can't be counted on to be there for it's shooters can only expect to lose those shooters and ultimately revenue. 

Considering all of the fine companies out there it's not that hard to choose those companies that promote 3-D and give back.
The invisible hand of self-interest guides your actions or it can slap you across the face. Make your choice.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

3-D Quest said:


> Loyal is defined as, "steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland or government," or "faithful to a person, ideal, etc." Loyal is an adjective. Loyalty is an adverb. Both are lacking in our vocabulary. The noun disloyalty is far more common in today's world.
> 
> There's no loyalty in the business world because businesses are more concerned about the bottom line than people. Therefore, companies let hard working and loyal shooters go to increase profits for the big boys. The consequence is decreased loyalty among shooters and their admirers. After all, if you know you are just a number, and someone offers you a better job, why not take it. It's every man for himself.
> 
> ...


Did you type all this on your own? WOW ...I am shocked....... But, I would.like.to say.....when a.person takes a.hobby and wants.to make.money from it, it then becomes More of a.business venture, which It's.not about loyalty of a product, but a business contract between two parties.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3-D Quest said:


> Loyal is defined as, "steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland or government," or "faithful to a person, ideal, etc." Loyal is an adjective. Loyalty is an adverb. Both are lacking in our vocabulary. The noun disloyalty is far more common in today's world.
> 
> There's no loyalty in the business world because businesses are more concerned about the bottom line than people. Therefore, companies let hard working and loyal shooters go to increase profits for the big boys. The consequence is decreased loyalty among shooters and their admirers. After all, if you know you are just a number, and someone offers you a better job, why not take it. It's every man for himself.
> 
> ...


Very good post! Well said! I do want to say archers are very passionate about there sport. Pros that make a choice to shoot for money want to be the very best of the best and there passion takes years of commitment. It about shooting aganist the best.
DB


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Timbo. 
WOW! LOL! I'm really shocked that you cared enough to even respond...although somewhat sarcastically.
And being loyal friends as we are, I know your one of a kind and I digress from any further sarcasm.
Goooooo Gaytors!

Oh yeah, lest I forget, Merry Christmas!


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

3-D Quest said:


> Timbo.
> WOW! LOL! I'm really shocked that you cared enough to even respond...although somewhat sarcastically.
> And being loyal friends as we are, I know your one of a kind and I digress from any further sarcasm.
> Goooooo Gaytors!
> ...


 ya know if I didn't like ya (non **** way) I wouldn't razz ya..lol... I wish ya and family a safe and merry Christmas.. And will see ya in about. 2.months


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

rock monkey said:


> Not gonna happen. Im an IBO member for reasons not related to the shoots.
> 
> I'll shoot my field game and do that work at the club. Some people still shoot for the fun of it instead of the paydays.



I still shoot for fun but many of the professionals have worked there tails off to make it to the top so they can be paid. 

I guess all professional athletes should just play there sport for fun and not get paid for it. Spend many hours away from home, away from there families and many hours practicing just for the fun of the game. Get real.
Jame


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Punch_Master said:


> Well then shoot for someone who does give contingency money. Hoyt has already determined that the sales you guys bring in aint worth the cost of running the program. Get over yourself. All of you 3D pros together just don't amount to much in the overall scheme of the archery business.


You have no clue. Really no clue. So you are telling me that people like Levi, Tim Gillingham, Chance etc have no impact in there areas when it comes to sales. I guarantee you they do. 
Again like a few others have said come of the people on here dont care because this doesnt effect them. Thing is it can. Maybe not directly but it can. 

Im starting to get the feeling some of the people on here believe that the money that gets taken from pros is gonna be spread across the board. Maybe, maybe not. Sure dont make sense to work you tail off to only have money taken away and to be disrespected by some of the people on here. Just makes no sense. Everyone on here wants the sport of archery to grow but how can it? It cant grow without having a place to grow. Top place is a pro and by the sound of it, it seems that some of you guys could care less about the pros. So do you really want the sport of archery to grow so hunters and target archers can benefit from it or could you care less.

I hope and pray this sport grows. I really do. I love this game. Its a game that anyone can play and be good at. You dont have to be the most athletic, tallest or biggest person. Anyone can do it and be good at it. Just sucks the way some of the people on here feel about pros and the money given to the pros. Just dont understand. 
Jame


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Jame said:


> You have no clue. Really no clue. So you are telling me that people like Levi, Tim Gillingham, Chance etc have no impact in there areas when it comes to sales. I guarantee you they do.
> Again like a few others have said come of the people on here dont care because this doesnt effect them. Thing is it can. Maybe not directly but it can.
> 
> Im starting to get the feeling some of the people on here believe that the money that gets taken from pros is gonna be spread across the board. Maybe, maybe not. Sure dont make sense to work you tail off to only have money taken away and to be disrespected by some of the people on here. Just makes no sense. Everyone on here wants the sport of archery to grow but how can it? It cant grow without having a place to grow. Top place is a pro and by the sound of it, it seems that some of you guys could care less about the pros. So do you really want the sport of archery to grow so hunters and target archers can benefit from it or could you care less.
> ...


I don't believe that anyone in your position would feel any differently. It's just that until you walk in those shoes you don't know what you are missing. Fact is that the Pros are the 1% of the 3-D world that feels the immediate affect that these decisions will have. Everyone else may understand in the future what it means. It is a shame that as the years go by that the Pro class stands still with around 35-40 shooters. It's a shame that somehow the orgs can't or won't bring in outside sponsors to help with the measely purses at the large events. The IBO Worlds netted the Pro class winner a whopping $1710.00 in 2012 with around 35 competitors. It's no wonder that the contingency is that big of a deal to those that have accelled and put themselves in the position to be able to collect it.
No one has an answer as to how to grow the sport right now. It's unfortunate that these issues have come up again. I wish you and all else the best at whatever road you decide to go down from here. It's not just the time and effort spent to reach the top of your game for some of you guys. There is the time spent with being the public figure and representing what you feel is the product that helped get you there. 
This is just my opinion as one of the 99% that haven't walked in your shoes. Good luck.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Jame said:


> You have no clue. Really no clue. So you are telling me that people like Levi, Tim Gillingham, Chance etc have no impact in there areas when it comes to sales. I guarantee you they do.
> Again like a few others have said come of the people on here dont care because this doesnt effect them. Thing is it can. Maybe not directly but it can.
> 
> Im starting to get the feeling some of the people on here believe that the money that gets taken from pros is gonna be spread across the board. Maybe, maybe not. Sure dont make sense to work you tail off to only have money taken away and to be disrespected by some of the people on here. Just makes no sense. Everyone on here wants the sport of archery to grow but how can it? It cant grow without having a place to grow. Top place is a pro and by the sound of it, it seems that some of you guys could care less about the pros. So do you really want the sport of archery to grow so hunters and target archers can benefit from it or could you care less.
> ...


No I do have a clue. It's you that obviously doesn't. You are still under the illusion that 3D pros are or should drive the sport of archery. They don't now nor will they ever. I guarantee you people like Micheal Waddell, the Kisky's, Ted Nuggent, and anybody else who has a hunting show on TV sells WAY more bows than 35 3D pros do nationwide. 

You are correct about one thing. I personally don't really care about the pros. They do absolutely nothing for me. They don't influence my buying decisions. I don't ask them for anything nor do I wish to be one of them. They just don't really mean anything to me one way or another.

You want the sport of archery to grow? Good luck with that. I've heard the same dream since the sport of 3D first started. Want it to be as big as Golf is with million dollar paydays. It's hasn't happenned so far and I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. It's just not the average rich person's sport.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Punch_Master said:


> No I do have a clue. It's you that obviously doesn't. You are still under the illusion that 3D pros are or should drive the sport of archery. They don't now nor will they ever. I guarantee you people like Micheal Waddell, the Kisky's, Ted Nuggent, and anybody else who has a hunting show on TV sells WAY more bows than 35 3D pros do nationwide.
> 
> You are correct about one thing. I personally don't really care about the pros. They do absolutely nothing for me. They don't influence my buying decisions. I don't ask them for anything nor do I wish to be one of them. They just don't really mean anything to me one way or another.
> 
> You want the sport of archery to grow? Good luck with that. I've heard the same dream since the sport of 3D first started. Want it to be as big as Golf is with million dollar paydays. It's hasn't happenned so far and I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. It's just not the average rich person's sport.



Get a life. You dont care because it doesnt effect you. Your narrow little inconsiderate mind wont allow you to consider how decisions like these effect peoples life. You dont get it at all. Mainly because you have never been in there shoes and apparently you are not a good enough archer for it to effect you. 

I do agree that the 3D pros dont drive all the sales up in archery but I can guarantee you that most of them do help the sales tremendously. I am so glad the hunting celebrities do help the sales for manufacturers. Thats awesome but there not the only reasons sales are doing so well with certain manufacturers. Sales go up because of everyone's efforts. Everybodies! I guarantee you that there are alot of guys who follow the Waddels of the hunting industry but I promise you there are alot of people who follow the pros also. Maybe not through tv shows but through there efforts out in the public or helping at local shops or just helping archers in general. Ive helped at local schools, helped at archery benefits and coached a few kids and dads at my house for free because I want to grow the sport. 
I hate it that you could care less if target archery grows but its pretty sad to just bash guys who want to make a living at what they love.
What have you done to grow the sport of archery?


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

hrtlnd164 said:


> I don't believe that anyone in your position would feel any differently. It's just that until you walk in those shoes you don't know what you are missing. Fact is that the Pros are the 1% of the 3-D world that feels the immediate affect that these decisions will have. Everyone else may understand in the future what it means. It is a shame that as the years go by that the Pro class stands still with around 35-40 shooters. It's a shame that somehow the orgs can't or won't bring in outside sponsors to help with the measely purses at the large events. The IBO Worlds netted the Pro class winner a whopping $1710.00 in 2012 with around 35 competitors. It's no wonder that the contingency is that big of a deal to those that have accelled and put themselves in the position to be able to collect it.
> No one has an answer as to how to grow the sport right now. It's unfortunate that these issues have come up again. I wish you and all else the best at whatever road you decide to go down from here. It's not just the time and effort spent to reach the top of your game for some of you guys. There is the time spent with being the public figure and representing what you feel is the product that helped get you there.
> This is just my opinion as one of the 99% that haven't walked in your shoes. Good luck.


I agree. 
Sad that there were more pros 20 yrs ago than there are now. The common denominator is money. The purse payouts were way more 20 yrs ago. Doesnt make sense that the payouts should be going down. 
Its all about the outside sponsors. IMO no one should have to depend on contingency. The purses should be high enough to make a person want to put the time in to get to the top and the contingencies be a bonus. Contingencies wouldnt have to be as high.

Hopefully one day the target archery game will be where 99% of the people on acherytalk want it to be. The 1% should be band from Archerytalk. :smile:


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Jame said:


> I agree.
> Sad that there were more pros 20 yrs ago than there are now. The common denominator is money. The purse payouts were way more 20 yrs ago. Doesnt make sense that the payouts should be going down.
> Its all about the outside sponsors. IMO no one should have to depend on contingency. The purses should be high enough to make a person want to put the time in to get to the top and the contingencies be a bonus. Contingencies wouldnt have to be as high.
> 
> *Hopefully one day the target archery game will be where 99% of the people on acherytalk want it to be. The 1% should be band from Archerytalk. :smile:*




On the contrary, MOST of us 99%ers enjoy the 1%'s input.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

When i was drag racing heavily....contingency pay out often times determined which part was bought.

There was a reason i coverrd up a nice paint job with a ton of stickers.

They paid 300-500 each at a big event.

Win 2500 for the race and over 18,000 on contingencies

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rhyno_071 (Feb 22, 2009)

Jame said:


> Get a life. You dont care because it doesnt effect you. Your narrow little inconsiderate mind wont allow you to consider how decisions like these effect peoples life. You dont get it at all. Mainly because you have never been in there shoes and apparently you are not a good enough archer for it to effect you.
> 
> I do agree that the 3D pros dont drive all the sales up in archery but I can guarantee you that most of them do help the sales tremendously. I am so glad the hunting celebrities do help the sales for manufacturers. Thats awesome but there not the only reasons sales are doing so well with certain manufacturers. Sales go up because of everyone's efforts. Everybodies! I guarantee you that there are alot of guys who follow the Waddels of the hunting industry but I promise you there are alot of people who follow the pros also. Maybe not through tv shows but through there efforts out in the public or helping at local shops or just helping archers in general. Ive helped at local schools, helped at archery benefits and coached a few kids and dads at my house for free because I want to grow the sport.
> I hate it that you could care less if target archery grows but its pretty sad to just bash guys who want to make a living at what they love.
> What have you done to grow the sport of archery?


I can agree with both of you. I'm the type that don't care what the pros use or what the TV celeb's use. I use what feels good and works for me. And I'm sure a lot of shooters are like that. But if I was ever to shoot at the higher level for money I would go with a manufacturer that paid. That's the reason to be a pro. A professional gets paid. And should get paid for their talent and dedication.

The problem is that most people don't know who the pro's are. In my area of Ohio, and at the local 3d shoots, people I've talked too don't know too many of them. Other than Levi, because I'm in a big Mathews area, and maybe Jack Wallace, because he's a local boy. But they all know Lee and Tiffany, Nuggent, etc. So I agree, at least in my area TV celebs do way more for archery than 3d pros. For that matter, NASP does more for the sport in my area than anything. That is why Mathews is so big in my area. I will bring this up at my indoor league in Jan and most shooters will say- what's contingency money?

Still it's not good for any kind of money to leave the sport. But I'm sure companies are doing it for a good reason to them. Time will tell if it hurts them or helps them.


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

hrtlnd164 said:


> [/B]
> 
> On the contrary, MOST of us 99%ers enjoy the 1%'s input.


Agreed! The 1% helps to boost the self esteem of the 99%!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Jame said:


> I do agree that the 3D pros dont drive all the sales up in archery but I can guarantee you that most of them do help the sales tremendously.
> I promise you there are alot of people who follow the pros also. Maybe not through tv shows but through there efforts out in the public or helping at local shops or just helping archers in general. Ive helped at local schools, helped at archery benefits and coached a few kids and dads at my house for free because I want to grow the sport.


Darn good points Jame. Pros are good will ambassadors beyond supporting their sponsors, helpful, friendly and many going above and beyond.
I commend you, Jame.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> No I do have a clue. It's you that obviously doesn't. You are still under the illusion that 3D pros are or should drive the sport of archery. They don't now nor will they ever. I guarantee you people like Micheal Waddell, the Kisky's, Ted Nuggent, and anybody else who has a hunting show on TV sells WAY more bows than 35 3D pros do nationwide.
> 
> You are correct about one thing. I personally don't really care about the pros. They do absolutely nothing for me. They don't influence my buying decisions. I don't ask them for anything nor do I wish to be one of them. They just don't really mean anything to me one way or another.
> 
> You want the sport of archery to grow? Good luck with that. I've heard the same dream since the sport of 3D first started. Want it to be as big as Golf is with million dollar paydays. It's hasn't happened so far and I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. It's just not the average rich person's sport.


Bottom line is you cant shoot or start to get on line with a pro archer or will ever know the feeling of shooting the last arrow of a pro event and pressure it takes to perform a shot for $10,000. So its easy to say they dont influence you. There living a dream shooting against the best of the best, worked there butts off to achieve it. Something you will never feel in your lifetime. Easy to sit back and realize you cant compete on there level. Contingency about those who can win! 

Let take you and Jame in class full of archery students and see who there more impressed with!


DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> No I do have a clue. It's you that obviously doesn't. You are still under the illusion that 3D pros are or should drive the sport of archery. They don't now nor will they ever. I guarantee you people like Micheal Waddell, the Kisky's, Ted Nuggent, and anybody else who has a hunting show on TV sells WAY more bows than 35 3D pros do nationwide.
> 
> You are correct about one thing. I personally don't really care about the pros. They do absolutely nothing for me. They don't influence my buying decisions. I don't ask them for anything nor do I wish to be one of them. They just don't really mean anything to me one way or another.
> 
> You want the sport of archery to grow? Good luck with that. I've heard the same dream since the sport of 3D first started. Want it to be as big as Golf is with million dollar paydays. It's hasn't happenned so far and I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. It's just not the average rich person's sport.


Punchmaster your in Jeff Hopkins area. Be sure and tell him your not impressed he won over a million dollars shooting 3d. Tell him you could do that if you set your mind to it. LOL 

Please tell me what a Hunting show celebrity has to do with 3d? Jame a heck of hunter. You wouldnt want to compare your deer with his on the wall. Also Jame forgot more about Hoyt bows than you ever start to understand!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rhyno_071 said:


> I can agree with both of you. I'm the type that don't care what the pros use or what the TV celeb's use. I use what feels good and works for me. And I'm sure a lot of shooters are like that. But if I was ever to shoot at the higher level for money I would go with a manufacturer that paid. That's the reason to be a pro. A professional gets paid. And should get paid for their talent and dedication.
> 
> The problem is that most people don't know who the pro's are. In my area of Ohio, and at the local 3d shoots, people I've talked too don't know too many of them. Other than Levi, because I'm in a big Mathews area, and maybe Jack Wallace, because he's a local boy. But they all know Lee and Tiffany, Nuggent, etc. So I agree, at least in my area TV celebs do way more for archery than 3d pros. For that matter, NASP does more for the sport in my area than anything. That is why Mathews is so big in my area. I will bring this up at my indoor league in Jan and most shooters will say- what's contingency money?
> 
> Still it's not good for any kind of money to leave the sport. But I'm sure companies are doing it for a good reason to them. Time will tell if it hurts them or helps them.


One thing Ill say about Jame he gives anyone the shirt off his back helping them whether it here or on the range. Very approachable pro who diffiantly knows his stuff. He the kinda guy everyone likes and is an ambassador to the sport. 
DB


----------



## rhyno_071 (Feb 22, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> One thing Ill say about Jame he gives anyone the shirt off his back helping them whether it here or on the range. Very approachable pro who diffiantly knows his stuff. He the kinda guy everyone likes and is an ambassador to the sport.
> DB


I've never met him, but from everything I've read he sure sounds like a great guy. I hope he keeps doing well in the sport.


----------



## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

If the professional classes of 3D archery is ever going to grow, it will take more than just a handfull of achery industry companies pouring money into it. Everyone supporting the pros seem quick to turn their backs on the companies that REDUCED (not eliminated) their contingency dollars. Instead of bashing the companies for the reduction, go after the companies that don't support at all & give them a good reason to spend their advertising money. 

3D archery pros are professional athletes that don't compete in front of spectators for most of their tournaments. The sanctioning bodies ASA & IBO need to treat pro archery tournaments much like the PGA treats golf, the NFL treats football, and NASCAR treats stock car racing by accommodating & marketing toward the spectators.

The pro archers need to be allowed & encouraged to approach more non-archery industry companies for sponsorships. 

Could you imagine if Pro shooters were wearing shirts that looked like NASCAR uniforms in front of a crowd of spectators?


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Darn good points Jame. Pros are good will ambassadors beyond supporting their sponsors, helpful, friendly and many going above and beyond.
> I commend you, Jame.


yes most of them are but there are plenty of amatures that are also. Where is the loyality when someone shoots a pro class and cant win so they move back to amature ? That seems to be the growing thing lately and it it cause of the money then it is sandbagging


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Jame said:


> Get a life.


You get a life. I already have one thank you very much and my idenity isn't tied to how well I shoot or not like yours is.


> You dont care because it doesnt effect you. Your narrow little inconsiderate mind wont allow you to consider how decisions like these effect peoples life. You dont get it at all. Mainly because you have never been in there shoes and apparently you are not a good enough archer for it to effect you.


Oh my gawd now really hurt my feelings. Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo, You are correct though I personally don't care how Hoyt's decision affects the pros any more than they care about what happens in my profession.



> I do agree that the 3D pros dont drive all the sales up in archery but I can guarantee you that most of them do help the sales tremendously. I am so glad the hunting celebrities do help the sales for manufacturers. Thats awesome but there not the only reasons sales are doing so well with certain manufacturers. Sales go up because of everyone's efforts. Everybodies! I guarantee you that there are alot of guys who follow the Waddels of the hunting industry but I promise you there are alot of people who follow the pros also. Maybe not through tv shows but through there efforts out in the public or helping at local shops or just helping archers in general. Ive helped at local schools, helped at archery benefits and coached a few kids and dads at my house for free because I want to grow the sport.
> I hate it that you could care less if target archery grows but its pretty sad to just bash guys who want to make a living at what they love.


I neither bashed the pros nor wished archery anything bad. You need a reading comprehension class. What I said was archery probably WON'T grow and I didn't care about the pros. You guys can make as much or as little $$$ as you want. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other


> What have you done to grow the sport of archery?


Sonny boy, I have shoes older than you. I've been in archery a LONG time. I've help more archers just starting out than you can shake a stick at. I was also putting money in national level 3D shoots when your Momma was still changing your diaper. It's not my responcibility to grow archery. I just shoot it but I've paid my dues. Run along Sonny and play nice with all the other kids.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Bottom line is you cant shoot or start to get on line with a pro archer or will ever know the feeling of shooting the last arrow of a pro event and pressure it takes to perform a shot for $10,000. So its easy to say they dont influence you. There living a dream shooting against the best of the best, worked there butts off to achieve it. Something you will never feel in your lifetime. Easy to sit back and realize you cant compete on there level. Contingency about those who can win!
> 
> Let take you and Jame in class full of archery students and see who there more impressed with!
> 
> ...


Pardon me sir, you obviously have me confused with someone who gives a damm about shooting ability. Like as if that really means anything in the real world.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Punchmaster your in Jeff Hopkins area. Be sure and tell him your not impressed he won over a million dollars shooting 3d. Tell him you could do that if you set your mind to it. LOL
> 
> Please tell me what a Hunting show celebrity has to do with 3d? Jame a heck of hunter. You wouldnt want to compare your deer with his on the wall. Also Jame forgot more about Hoyt bows than you ever start to understand!
> DB


I know Jeff personally and have had dinner with him. He's a great guy and very talented with a bow. Good for him for all the money he made. Nope I can't shoot like Jeff and never will. It also doesn't bother me a bit because I shoot because I enjoy shooting. It's not about money or competing with anybody except myself. My ego and identity aren't tied into the sport of archery like yours is.

Oh and for PS: You can't shoot like Jeff can either and I'll bet that little factoid bothers you WAY more than it does me.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I guess I've spent too much time in the woods lately and have missed the big "news". Nah, I may have missed the latest news but I definitely haven't spent too much time in the woods. With that said..........

A company cutting jobs or reducing their employees pay is NEVER a good sign! I am not one and never have been a person that felt compelled to have my nose in a pro archers butt and there are MANY archers that really suck up to any pro or archery business. But because I enjoy serious archery competitions I'm disappointed to hear that evidently Hoyt has chosen to reduce their commitment to the 3D archers that compete at the highest level. IF they are redirecting that funding to other areas or people that promote archery it may not be as bad. Reducing the $$ going into 3D may not be something we personally like but if Hoyt is say directing those monies to say Olympic, FITA or other archery venues well at least they are still supporting archery.......... It should be fairly obvious I enjoy indoor spot shooting, 3D and bow hunting. Not necessarily in that order!!

I would NOT be surprised to hear that Hoyt is directing more funding toward spot shooters as Hoyt pretty much took over control of the NFAA a few years ago. I've been waiting for some time to hear that the NFAA has turned over it's physical assets to Hoyt or gave Hoyt a board seat or 3.........

It would be a much better sign if they were doubling their Pro staff and increasing the contingency money they pay them!!!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Chad Hilburn he a sandbagging pro. LOL
> DB


Finally, something in this thread no one can argue about.

Sorry Chad :tongue:


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Amazing how some call it greed. It good sense to support those who buy the bows.


I agree. As a customer who buys the bow, the way i want to be supported is the best bow i can get, for the best price i can get, with the best service and warranty i can get. If they sponsor events, that is a plus. Whether the company pays people money to shoot their equipment is of little importance to me. I am under no delusion that i'm going to shoot as well as somebody else because they use the same hardware. The idea that bow manufacturers should support their customers by paying them to use their products seems a little silly. If they want to pay a professional to help market their product, that's between them and the professional. If the professional doesn't like the deal, and can get a better one, they should take it.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> I know Jeff personally and have had dinner with him. He's a great guy and very talented with a bow. Good for him for all the money he made. Nope I can't shoot like Jeff and never will. It also doesn't bother me a bit because I shoot because I enjoy shooting. It's not about money or competing with anybody except myself. My ego and identity aren't tied into the sport of archery like yours is.
> 
> Oh and for PS: You can't shoot like Jeff can either and I'll bet that little factoid bothers you WAY more than it does me.


 Bet Jeff doesnt give a rats tail what you do in life, he not judging what you decide to do for a living. If your identity and ego werent meaningfull to anyone but you why come post a picture of you and your deer? Glad were getting some where, it does seem you have admiration for a pro archer but dont want to readyly admit it. So you like to shoot for fun, nothing wrong with that but to come attack pro archery or pro archers like it doesnt mean a thing is wrong. 

PS

I would love to have Jeff skills. Would love to have Jame/Randle skills. Not going to happen. But Ill be damned if Im going to try and some how demise what they do for a living and what its taken to get there. You act like you know what it feels like to be a pro archer? 

Some how trying to compare a hunting celebrity to pro archer. Find the fact you had dinner with Jeff tells me you are in awe of Jeff and his skills. When at dinner did you tell Jeff what he does really isnt all that great and will never become nothing more?
Knowing Jeff he would have told you a few things and not in a friendly way. Jeff dont mixed words but he will defend what he does for a living.

DB


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Bet Jeff doesnt give a rats tail what you do in life, he not judging what you decide to do for a living. If your identity and ego werent meaningfull to anyone but you why come post a picture of you and your deer? Glad were getting some where, it does seem you have admiration for a pro archer but dont want to readyly admit it. So you like to shoot for fun, nothing wrong with that but to come attack pro archery or pro archers like it doesnt mean a thing is wrong.
> 
> PS
> 
> ...


wow very impressive there . Another post attacking someone cause of their opinion so many times you cry cause someone does not like you you say Then to comment that it is a discussion yes it is a discussion one way or no way.
its kind of funny that jame is the only pro that says anything about this. 
the way you carring on about pros reminds me of a movie about a couple sheep farmers. Reality check pors are no better than you or me just more talent.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Bet Jeff doesnt give a rats tail what you do in life,


Correct, he probably doesn't even remember me. Keeping that in mind why then should I then care about what happens to the pros when they don't care about me?


> he not judging what you decide to do for a living.


Nor am I judging him. All I've said is that pros have no effect on me one way or the other.


> If your identity and ego werent meaningfull to anyone but you why come post a picture of you and your deer?


What in the world are you talking about?


> Glad were getting some where, it does seem you have admiration for a pro archer but dont want to readyly admit it. So you like to shoot for fun, nothing wrong with that but to come attack pro archery or pro archers like it doesnt mean a thing is wrong.


The problem is with your perception of what I've written as a attack and it is not. You are mistaking ambivolence for a attack. That is YOUR mistake not mine.

PS



> I would love to have Jeff skills. Would love to have Jame/Randle skills. Not going to happen.


I'm quite sure that fact has kept you up many sleepless nights


> But Ill be damned if Im going to try and some how demise what they do for a living and what its taken to get there.


Where are you getting this idea from that I was doing that?


> You act like you know what it feels like to be a pro archer?


Wrong, I neither know nor care what it's like to be a pro archer. It doesn't matter to me. It obviously matters to you a great deal. I suggest you pay the entrance fee and try real hard. 



> Some how trying to compare a hunting celebrity to pro archer. Find the fact you had dinner with Jeff tells me you are in awe of Jeff and his skills. When at dinner did you tell Jeff what he does really isnt all that great and will never become nothing more?


I didn't have to tell Jeff anything at all. He doesn't have a God complex. He's just a normal person like everybody else. He doesn't have huge ego that needs stroking like you do.


> Knowing Jeff he would have told you a few things and not in a friendly way. Jeff dont mixed words but he will defend what he does for a living.
> 
> DB


Jeff is a big teddy bear and he most likely wouldn't waste his time argueing about this whole issue.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> wow very impressive there . Another post attacking someone cause of their opinion so many times you cry cause someone does not like you you say Then to comment that it is a discussion yes it is a discussion one way or no way.
> its kind of funny that jame is the only pro that says anything about this.
> the way you carring on about pros reminds me of a movie about a couple sheep farmers. Reality check pors are no better than you or me just more talent.


Calling the kettle black. LOL Disscusion forum an thats exactly what I was doing. Punchmasters answering and disscussing and gave good answer. He dont need you to defend him!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Correct, he probably doesn't even remember me. Keeping that in mind why then should I then care about what happens to the pros when they don't care about me?Nor am I judging him. All I've said is that pros have no effect on me one way or the other. What in the world are you talking about?The problem is with your perception of what I've written as a attack and it is not. You are mistaking ambivolence for a attack. That is YOUR mistake not mine.
> 
> PS
> 
> ...


Seems you really didnt mean this about 3d pros then! Hard to understand exactly what your for and against.



Your Qoute not mine. 

All of you 3D pros together just don't amount to much in the overall scheme.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Seems you really didnt mean this about 3d pros then! Hard to understand exactly what your for and against.
> 
> Your Qoute not mine.
> 
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Daniel Boone said:
> 
> 
> > Seems you really didnt mean this about 3d pros then! Hard to understand exactly what your for and against.
> ...


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Punch_Master said:
> 
> 
> > When you mention fact. Where is this fact posted or is this your opionion. Seems with some manufactuers paying out so much to so many in 3d this fact would be arguable just opionion.
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Daniel Boone said:
> 
> 
> > How many millions of people bought archery hunting licences in the USA last year? How many people shot in the 3D Worlds last year? A couple thousand maybe in both ASA and IBO? That's a couple thousand vs a couple million. I rest my case. Even if you include all the people who only shoot 3D at the local level you are only talking about less than a hundred thousand give or take and if you subtract all the people who also hunt from that that don't leave you with very much at all.
> ...


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Punch_Master said:
> 
> 
> > Fact that you know Jeff seems to me to say they reached you! Let say only those touched 1000 other archers which would be very small numbers. Thats allot of advertisement. I would wonder how many C4 or Mathews bows Jeff has help sale in his career?
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> Daniel Boone said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but when $$$ get tight the bow manufacturer HAS to look at what they get the biggest return on investment from their advertising dollar.
> ...


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

ok here are a couple questions DB? Seeing that you make it sound like all pros do such a wonderfup job promoting archery which yes some do 
Why dont all pros help with ASA state shoots or even show up?
Why dont all rpos shoot the team shoots excluding the ones where the pros shoot there ranges on frioday?
How is it helping archery for pros to go back to amature class excluding money and rules?


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One thing for sure. Many of us that try our best to do well in target competition, whether 3D or paper, are driven by the Pros and/or the better shooters. They inspire us to do better. If they inspire us to give just a tad bit more than we normally would, then we do better than what we would have done or at least feel we gave it our best effort.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Punch_Master said:


> You get a life. I already have one thank you very much and my idenity isn't tied to how well I shoot or not like yours is.Oh my gawd now really hurt my feelings. Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo, You are correct though I personally don't care how Hoyt's decision affects the pros any more than they care about what happens in my profession.
> 
> I neither bashed the pros nor wished archery anything bad. You need a reading comprehension class. What I said was archery probably WON'T grow and I didn't care about the pros. You guys can make as much or as little $$$ as you want. It doesn't matter to me one way or the otherSonny boy, I have shoes older than you. I've been in archery a LONG time. I've help more archers just starting out than you can shake a stick at. I was also putting money in national level 3D shoots when your Momma was still changing your diaper. It's not my responcibility to grow archery. I just shoot it but I've paid my dues. Run along Sonny and play nice with all the other kids.


Sonny boy. You are so dang funny POPS. Sonny Boy is a compliment. I love feeling young again. You honestly act like instead of being the age you are you act like you are about 10. Name calling in all. I dont care. Its funny. I am full blooded christian and I forgive you. 

I am not gonna sit here and argue with someone is so negative when it comes to building archery as a whole whether its being a professional or just someone who hunts. Regardless I love archery as a whole. Everything about it. I hate seeing money taken out of the sport especially when companies claim they had more gross income and had a record setting net profit yr/yrs. 
It really aggravates me when you have people that will knock other peoples dreams and there passions. Whats the reason? Jealousy! 

I am so glad I am 35 yrs old now and not the 21 yr old hot headed little punk SONNY BOY I used to be. I thank my wife so much for introducing me to Christ. I dont have to prove anything to you Punch Master. Only God and I hope you feel the same way. I also hope and pray for this sport and I believe one day it will be where most of us hope it will be. 

Again I will say that I believe that archery manufacturers profit from everyones desire for this sport to grow. Hunting, indoor, 3d etc. Hunters, ams, and pros etc. Look at Mathews. Sponsored shooters came first and then the sponsored hunting shows. Both together and they have exploded as one of the leaders in bow manufacturing. The product they build has also been a big factor in how well they have done the past 20 yrs.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> One thing for sure. Many of us that try our best to do well in target competition, whether 3D or paper, are driven by the Pros and/or the better shooters. They inspire us to do better. If they inspire us to give just a tad bit more than we normally would, then we do better than what we would have done or at least feel we gave it our best effort.


That idea got beat out of me a long time ago. We used to have a couple past Vegas winners and some IBO belt buckle holders shooting at my club indoors and out. There was no keeping up with them. I just compete with myself and am happy if I shoot to MY standards not to theirs.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Jame said:


> Sonny boy. You are so dang funny POPS. Sonny Boy is a compliment. I love feeling young again. You honestly act like instead of being the age you are you act like you are about 10. Name calling in all. I dont care. Its funny. I am full blooded christian and I forgive you.
> 
> I am not gonna sit here and argue with someone is so negative when it comes to building archery as a whole whether its being a professional or just someone who hunts. Regardless I love archery as a whole. Everything about it. I hate seeing money taken out of the sport especially when companies claim they had more gross income and had a record setting net profit yr/yrs.
> It really aggravates me when you have people that will knock other peoples dreams and there passions. Whats the reason? Jealousy!
> ...


Jealousy? Not hardly. I am totally happy doing what I do for a living and have NO desire to ever be a pro archer. Only 35? Yep you are young yet but I won't hold that against you. You'll grow out of it. As far as archery growing? Who knows. I haven't really seen much change in the 30 some years I've been involved but who knows what the future holds. I am glad to see the archery in schools program doing well. That'll help keep the sport going for awhile.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

treeman65 said:


> ok here are a couple questions DB? Seeing that you make it sound like all pros do such a wonderfup job promoting archery which yes some do
> Why dont all pros help with ASA state shoots or even show up?
> Why dont all rpos shoot the team shoots excluding the ones where the pros shoot there ranges on frioday?
> How is it helping archery for pros to go back to amature class excluding money and rules?


I know most pros really love helping other archers. I know I do because without the help from some of the Greats like Tommy Gomez, Nathan Brooks, Bobby Ketcher, Chris Hacker etc I wouldnt have the understandings about archery that I do now. 
I will say this, I have been told by other professionals that I should stay off here because all thats gonna happen is I will get bashed. Thats fine because for every 1 person that bashes my opinions there are 20 others that respect my opinions and I love helping people if I can. Thats why I love archery. Archery has taken me places that I have never been and I have met some of the best people in the world because of archery. I wouldnt take that back for anything.
Ill answer it. Go to the Oklahoma and Texas ASA shoots. Theres always pros there. Its hard to make all of them when you make alot of the indoor tournaments, all of the ASA tournaments and all of the IBO tournaments. I have a family like most of the pros. Without our families blessings it wouldnt be possible to do what we love to do so I dont want or need to go to a tournament every weekend especially if we can practice at home and still have alot of time with our families. 

Most Pros shoot on fridays because of they are there. Not all of us get there on weds. Alot of times we dont get there till late Thursday because we all have full time jobs and other responsibilities. Sometimes we have to work on equipment problems because we didnt have much time during the week at home because of our full time jobs and family functions. I wouldnt miss my sons sporting event because I needed to work on my equipment that week. There are alot of things that come first before archery.

I dont have an answer for you on dropping back down a class. Not sure why that is. I am sure they have good reasons. 

Treeman65 please dont take anything I said out of context because I sure didnt mean it in a demeaning way.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Its not gonna grow without eveyones support and working together. To be honest archery has back slidden compared to 20 yrs ago. Its not gonna grow until the negativity is gone.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> ok here are a couple questions DB? Seeing that you make it sound like all pros do such a wonderfup job promoting archery which yes some do
> Why dont all pros help with ASA state shoots or even show up?
> Why dont all rpos shoot the team shoots excluding the ones where the pros shoot there ranges on frioday?
> How is it helping archery for pros to go back to amature class excluding money and rules?


 In Oklahoma Pros do show up because we gave them a class. Federation doesnt include pros on state level.
I agree they should shoot the pro ams. 
Pros skills sometime dont always stay on pro level. ASA makes rules for this so they can drop back into semis so they dont have to quit archery. Regardless they have to play by the rules just like everyone else. I went to pros for two years, should I not shoot archery in amatuers ever again? I did have to go before a review board at ASA to go back. Placed higher in pro classes than I have in amatuers. Go figure. 
DB


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> In Oklahoma Pros do show up because we gave them a class. Federation doesnt include pros on state level.
> I agree they should shoot the pro ams.
> Pros skills sometime dont always stay on pro level. ASA makes rules for this so they can drop back into semis so they dont have to quit archery. Regardless they have to play by the rules just like everyone else. I went to pros for two years, should I not shoot archery in amatuers ever again? I did have to go before a review board at ASA to go back. Placed higher in pro classes than I have in amatuers. Go figure.
> DB


NC director made a class for them and even personal invited them and you know as good as i do there are so top pros from nc


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> NC director made a class for them and even personal invited them and you know as good as i do there are so top pros from nc


What are you trying to say?

Oklahoma I believe Jame, Justin Bethal, Art Brown, David Lay, Lyle Plum and Elisha and Annette Pettigrew, Vaghn Mclain shot in are state shoot. Many shoot the qaulifiers as well. Im sure I missed a few at state as well. Chad Hilburn he a sandbagging pro. LOL
DB


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> What are you trying to say?
> 
> Oklahoma I believe Jame, Justin Bethal, Art Brown, David Lay, Lyle Plum and Elisha and Annette Pettigrew, Vaghn Mclain shot in are state shoot. Many shoot the qaulifiers as well. Im sure I missed a few at state as well. Chad Hilburn he a sandbagging pro. LOL
> DB


 I was saying the pros in nc did not attempt to support the state shoots. I never mented chads name nor will i ever mention someone name on here.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The pros and semi pros show up in my state for qualifiers and state championships. Last year, I had about 8 or 9 of them show up for the state shoot. 

I know also, I have a few that show up for the qualifier that we hold here the Sunday before the Pro Am . The terrain is pretty spot on close to what they have at Newberry, other then, the trees tunnels are a little tighter at times. 

I am planning on having more pros / semis at our shoots this year, mostly because we have a couple more in my state that are moved up to Pro...which one they need to keep an eye on....he's out to knock a few poeple off the platform


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> I was saying the pros in nc did not attempt to support the state shoots. I never mented chads name nor will i ever mention someone name on here.


It would be pretty tough for Chad to support a NC state shoot.


....DB was making a joke, a jab at Chad who is a talented OK local.


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> It would be pretty tough for Chad to support a NC state shoot.
> 
> 
> ....DB was making a joke, a jab at Chad who is a talented OK local.



Yeah but hes still a sandbagger. LOL. JK


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Jame said:


> Yeah but hes still a sandbagger. LOL. JK


Dang right. I said earlier that this was the only thing in this thread no one could argue about :wink:...but somehow it got lost in AT...


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Just curious...why have so many interpreted response in this thread to amount to a basic: "You're either for the 'pros' and basic business decisions are bad"; or, "you're completely and totally against the pros, and don't care about them, because you understand a basic business decision"?

And, if you're 'against' the pros, then you're against archery, and certainly growth. And, if you're 'against' the pros, then you must accept that a company doesn't support archery, or have any loyalty, and whatever else?

Want to know why archery will never grow, people on both sides of whatever issue, take it way to personal, and anyone on the other side, obviously has it out for them. Silly, but a reality of the sport.

The other reality is that if 3-D is going to grow on a national level, the market must expand. The market has remained stagnant, and it is not the manufacturers issue to deal with. It is the organizations, and those who want to promote the organization. It would be a terrible business decision(at least in the short term) for the 3-D orgs to look west. I also haven't heard any of the 3-D pros advocate for such an expansion (with legitimate personal reasons). Historically, I have heard them complain about it.

Additional money/sponsorship...who's responsibility is it to secure? SHould the pros, regardless of bvenue, rely on the manufactures to come to them? Should they individually seek out other sponsors willing to pay them, whether endemic or not. Who's responsibility is it to assure that money is earned by the individual?

Archery is just a microcosm of the world...if you sit around and wait for others to come, you will be left behind.

None of this should be construed as vile and hateful language toward anyone, or any division or status, just added for discussion.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> It would be pretty tough for Chad to support a NC state shoot.
> 
> 
> ....DB was making a joke, a jab at Chad who is a talented OK local.


Whoever said anything about him shooting in nc. Yes he is talented I have shot the same ranges as him before and have seen what he can do


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> Whoever said anything about him shooting in nc. Yes he is talented I have shot the same ranges as him before and have seen what he can do


LOL. OK.

This thread is out of control like the others.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

Gonna go out on a limb here, if an outside sponsor just happened upon this thread and read through the six pages. Need any of us say any more???


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

NYS REP said:


> Gonna go out on a limb here, if an outside sponsor just happened upon this thread and read through the six pages. Need any of us say any more???


Hopefully, they would.laugh at.least.some of it..lol


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

One thing most here will never have to worry about a Contingency check. 



Jame going to be fine. Good manufactuers find good archers. Looking forward to seeing Jame in 2013.

Tmorelli might see a few one day. He won his share in 2012. 

Senior Pro Randle Jones even those he up in age may collect another one this year. He won in 2012. Never count the old timers out for sure.:thumbs_up

DB


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Funny thing...most recognize, accept, and don't care whether the win a contingency check or not. Most don't shoot for money or contingency.

But there may actually be some insight into manufacturer decision making...if most don't shoot for contingency, for whatever reason, including because they don't have to worry about it, what target market should the manufacturer support? The many or the few...


----------



## wvlongshot (Aug 11, 2008)

I don't post here very often, but a quick question. Is there any hard data that hoyt is or isn't shifting more $ at a different venue? Will there be a olympic hopeful, that needs help, and gets it to go represent the USA in front of the world? I hope so. Sorry that there won't be as many red shirts walking off the pro ranges, I like seeing some variety.


----------



## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> One thing most here will never have to worry about a Contingency check.
> Jame going to be fine. Good manufactuers find good archers. Looking forward to seeing Jame in 2013.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

For those of you that are pros I know the will to go on will survive.

Where God closes one door he opens another. The challenge to compete on the stage with the best will always drive the pros.

Only a few will ever feel what it feels like to win on that stage.

Those here posting they really want to shoot for fun and wouldn't want to be the steps of pros are just kidding yourself. Always those who cant say they dont and I find that so much full of crap.

Personally for myself I will always want to compete and thats the challenge and fun in archery. Anyone can fling arrows.

DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

huntelk said:


> Daniel Boone said:
> 
> 
> > One thing most here will never have to worry about a Contingency check.
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Jame got a question for you!

How much fun was it to shoot that last arrow to win the ASA Classic? Some are talking about fun in archery! 

Im queesing that was some kind of fun!

DB


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

LOL. Most memorable archery achievement. Great feeling.


----------



## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

There are several "spotties" looking for a new ride also. I hear the Northwest rep was in Gillette giving bows to anyone that has ever shot a 300 in an attempt to get some shooters back.



Daniel Boone said:


> huntelk said:
> 
> 
> > Hoyt will take care of a select few. Sure didnt see the Vegas contingency coming as well WOW!
> > DB


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Ouch, never expected Hoyt to cut contigency in spots too. An across the board cut in contingency payments makes a guy wonder if they're in trouble.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Those here posting they really want to shoot for fun and wouldn't want to be the steps of pros are just kidding yourself. Always those who cant say they dont and I find that so much full of crap.
> 
> Personally for myself I will always want to compete and thats the challenge and fun in archery. Anyone can fling arrows.
> 
> DB


What I find full of crap is those who claim to know how everybody else feels about archery yet obviously doesn't. Those that think that just because they see everything as win anyway you can they think that everybody else feels the same need to finish first and they don't. Some of us truely don't care if we finish dead last as long as we know we shot our best.

I'll give you a example:
Quite a few years back I went to the Virginia State marked yardage 3D championship. Two day shoot 25 targets each day. First day I shot 3up and second day I shot 5up for a 8up total in open class. I walked off that course happy as a clam for shooting that well. I finished something like third from last overall. (A Pro girl won it with something like 40 points up and no eights) To this day I'm still proud of how I shot that day even though I didn't even come close to winning.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> What I find full of crap is those who claim to know how everybody else feels about archery yet obviously doesn't. Those that think that just because they see everything as win anyway you can they think that everybody else feels the same need to finish first and they don't. Some of us truely don't care if we finish dead last as long as we know we shot our best.
> 
> I'll give you a example:
> Quite a few years back I went to the Virginia State marked yardage 3D championship. Two day shoot 25 targets each day. First day I shot 3up and second day I shot 5up for a 8up total in open class. I walked off that course happy as a clam for shooting that well. I finished something like third from last overall. (A Pro girl won it with something like 40 points up and no eights) To this day I'm still proud of how I shot that day even though I didn't even come close to winning.


 You seem to got this pro thing figured out. Im just queesing but I think you went shooting to compete and keep score. Thats called a compitition. Difference is you decided your fine with your score. Pro and others decide they want to be the best they can possiable be and score better. Maybe shoot a fun round in the future because score just doesnt matter to you. Got it!
DB


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> You seem to got this pro thing figured out. Im just queesing but I think you went shooting to compete and keep score. Thats called a compitition. Difference is you decided your fine with your score. Pro and others decide they want to be the best they can possiable be and score better. Maybe shoot a fun round in the future because score just doesnt matter to you. Got it!
> DB


All I'm saying is that not everybody needs to win to be happy in archery the way you think they do. Sure, winning is fun but it's not everything to MOST people that go to MOST archery shoots.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Punch_Master said:


> All I'm saying is that not everybody needs to win to be happy in archery the way you think they do. Sure, winning is fun but it's not everything to MOST people that go to MOST archery shoots.


Thats funny if it was all about winning. I would have quit years ago. Tournament archery is about keeping score and doing your best in compitition. Winning or doing well is just A bonus. Like I said dont keep score just go shoot and have a blast. Nothing wrong with that!
DB


----------



## Caddo Creek (Jan 16, 2010)

I won't get into the debate other than to say there have been generalizations about most Companies and most shooters, etc.

I can speak specifically about my experiences with specific pro shooters and specific companies. Everyone is not created the same and I'm sorry for those who have never experienced the best of people and the best of companies but it's not an excuse to throw everyone in the same bucket.

I got into 3D because I wanted to take up Bowhunting and because I wanted to be proficient with a bow. I had been on too many late night tracking sessions with a bow hunter who decided to practice a couple of weeks before opener. My point is there is a direct correlation (IMHO) between bow hunting and 3D and the pressure of competition and the moment of truth. Buck fever still trumps competition unless I was in that shoot down with Levi Morgan.

When I first started archery in 2003 at age of 43, I was fortunate to have great coaching from a friend who seemed to know a lot of great 3D amateur shooters who had won state titles. One of those common friends was a young guy from Oklahoma who was winning a lot of the IBO shoots at that time. His name was Jame Jamison and I was fortunate to get to shoot with Jame at a qualifier and during practice. Jame was always helpful and offered tips on how to improve my mechanics etc. Another thing I noticed was Jame always brought a couple of young kids with him when he would shoot our North Texas Shoots or IBO Winter Nationals. Jame bled red even then and I will tell you he believed that HOYT gave him the best chance to win. Call me weak minded but I figured if it was good enough for him and the scores he was shooting, a ProElite was good enough for me. My point is Jame promoted HOYT and was a big part of why I bought my 1st and my satisfaction with Hoyt's Product is why have have bought 10 since that time.

Fast forward to 2006. I realized my dream of winning a Texas State 3D ASA title (hunter division) and it was something I never thought would happen. I was bitten by the 3D bug and I haven't hunted with a rifle sine 2003 so don't tell me it doesn't relate to hunting. 3D is what transformed me from a rifle hunter to a bow hunter.

For the past three(3) years I have hosted a Charity Tournament to support the Carson Leslie Foundation which is named after a co-workers son who died of cancer at a very young age. The Foundation helps kids that are dealing with cancer and is supporting the search for a cure to Children's Cancer. Guess who I asked to help? Jame Jamison and Gene Curry were at the top of the list and Jame helped me enlist Justin Bethel. These Pro's all had to travel 2-4 hrs to Dallas-Ft. worth and didn't ask for anything. They were all I could want as representatives of the sport and their Comapnies. The Participants were messmerized by their skills and the opportunity to watch them and talk archery with them. We have raised approximately $100,000 for the Charity in the last three(3) years and we have had around 110 shooters who are primarily hunters who had never been introduced to 3D Archery. I have been surprised by the number who have become addicted once introduced to the sport (much like myself).

I am not here to past judgement on Hoyt or the Industry in general. I am here to say that the Pro's I have personally met have been great Ambassador's to the sport of archery, they have been loyal to the Bow Companies they shoot for and believe in their equipment and they are directly responsible for a lot of sales but the Manufacturer's can't measure it. What if every time a Pro sold a bow, or sent a Customer to a shop there was a way to track that referral? They have full-time jobs besides archery but put in tremendous hours of practice to shoot at the level they shoot at (like it was a 2nd job). I suspect most need their contingency checks but would trade those for higher payouts derived from better promotion of the sport. 

IMHO, I believe the sport of archery (not just 3D) is missing the boat on how to promote the sport properly. Most major Corporations sponsor events (like Golf) because there is a charity connection to the event or it has to be a Cause Driven Organization. Archery is one of the only events that a Family can do together, there is a way to promote that aspect of our sport. *Did I read correctly the Archery Event was the most watched event in the entire Olympics but we say it isn't interesting to watch on TV*. I was on vacation and everyone in the Lodge was watching Brady Ellison and Team USA. Like someone mentioned, Archery got a big boost from the Hollywood Movies and when I go to the CCR Archery Center in Ft. Worth in the evenings or Texins Plano Archery Center, it is incredible to see the Mom's and Kid's shooting together and the Dad's, Mom's, Kid's. I am bullish on Archery and it's present popularity but I do think it can be promoted better which would ease the burden on the Comapnies while rewarding our shooters for being some of the best in the world at what they do.

I had 2nd thoughts about posting this as I'll probably get hammered too but I think there is so much to say that is positive about the Pro's I have met personally and the opportunities that I think are there in our sport of archery.


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

Caddo Creek,
Two thumbs up for a great post. No hammering here. Same reason I became involved in 3D archery. To become a better bowhunter and enjoy the companionship that I have encountered in the 14 years that I have been competing. Been a bowhunter for 37 years and a competitor for 14, met some wonderful people over those years and hope too no matter what happens to the contigency. Again great post!!!


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Caddo Creek said:


> I had 2nd thoughts about posting this as I'll probably get hammered too but I think there is so much to say that is positive about the Pro's I have met personally and the opportunities that I think are there in our sport of archery.


Not sure that anything you posted is a 'hammerable' statement. :wink: Personally, I agree generally with everything you said. Can't say I took up 3-D seriously to directly benefit my hunting though. There were some tangibles that definitely helped, but that wasn't the reason I stared doing it. 

Most every pro I have come into contact with, regardless of venue, have been fairly cordial. They also do a lot to sell bows for their brand in their area. On a national level, I don't think the returns are there, though. Jusy MO, and not a bash on any of them.

I also agree that for archery to grow, if that is what everyone thinks is best (and by grow for this conversation, I am speaking of tournament archery) sponsors from outside the industry have to be found. The industry has been the primary (only) supporter of archery for far too long IMO. The question becomes: Who is responsible for seeking this outside sponsorship, and how will it function?

I believe the orgs have some of this responsibility. I believe the pros have some of this responsibility (both individually and for the orgs). I also believe that the Joes have some responsibility, and certainly influence in this. Unfortunately, it does appear that all of those have taken the general strategy of sitting back and waiting for the non-endemic sponsors to come to them. There is also a lot of disention amongst the ranks as to whether non-endemic sponsorship is the way to go.

Add to that the multiple competing orgs, who appear to go out of their way to cause problems for the others, a lack of central leadership, a lack of an influential pro organization, and we end up with what we have. 

IMO there does appear to be enough 'blame' and also opportunity to go around, covering all the players in this situation...


----------

