# ASA rules that are frequently broken



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Some people that shoots ASA events probably do not read the rule book cover to cover regularly enough to know what all the rules are. Since yesterday's debacle, I have read it more carefully. A couple rules that people might not be aware of are as follows:

No cell phones out on the range. I probably saw 10-15 of them this past weekend on my range.

No discussion of yardages even after the shot. The way I read that rule is that I cannot even ask somebody "how far did you shoot that for?" after we both have shot. No discussion at all is what I read in the rules.

What are some other often ignored or misunderstood rules?


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## owl (May 28, 2004)

I suspect a big one is speed limit, where such exist. Perhaps extra marks on sights, where restrictions exist. I sincerely hope that most violations are inadvertant and most people are honest.


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

I am guessing that it states no talking about yardage even after the shot, to make sure no one around in other groups can overhear. That is probably the most broken actual rule, along with cell phones. 

It was mentioned to me that dress codes are often overlooked, especially in the beginning amateur classes. A warning should be given on Saturday, if it is really a rule. Some of the attire this weekend was horrible. I have always respected the ASA organization because it holds its shooters to higher expectations with a dress code. But that may be a little of the teacher in me.

It is also mandatory for all shooters to attend their shooter meeting. How many people do not go to theirs?

People have also walked to different stakes to shoot with the people they want to.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

Marj, Marj, Marj..... Let's not forget those that wait for the people on the target in front of them to move so they can walk it back, you and I both know who I am talking about!

I can't believe you don't want to shoot with me anymore, I am crushed!!


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## bowsrd (Jan 15, 2012)

Also the time limit to shoot and standing at the stake after the shot, trying to see where they hit.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

archermarj said:


> I am guessing that it states no talking about yardage even after the shot, to make sure no one around in other groups can overhear. That is probably the most broken actual rule, along with cell phones.
> 
> It was mentioned to me that dress codes are often overlooked, especially in the beginning amateur classes. A warning should be given on Saturday, if it is really a rule. Some of the attire this weekend was horrible. I have always respected the ASA organization because it holds its shooters to higher expectations with a dress code. But that may be a little of the teacher in me.
> 
> ...


The shooter meeting is not mandatory, the rule says that every shooter will be expected to attend the meeting.


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

jimb said:


> The shooter meeting is not mandatory, the rule says that every shooter will be expected to attend the meeting.


Rules state,"prior to the start of competition on the first day, all shooters will be expected to attend a competitor safety meeting which should be considered mandatory.


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## 2K6S2K (Nov 14, 2010)

I see people on the breakdown bags warming up in the mornings, cell phones galore, too long/wrong angle stabs ( bow novice/hunter class ), not straddling/touching stake, pulling arrows before scoring is complete, yardage discussion, dress codes, shooter groups moving ahead before the next group clears out, and SPEED LIMIT!!!!


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

archermarj said:


> Rules state,"prior to the start of competition on the first day, all shooters will be expected to attend a competitor safety meeting which should be considered mandatory.


then it would say mandatory


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

It says "mandatory" in the sentence. The actual word"mandatory." so it does say it. I quoted straight from the rules.


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## IL CSS Shooter (Jan 12, 2007)

You are all correct on the problems that are going on at the big shoots. But also read in the rules it is up to the group of shooters to enforce these said rules. So I think IMHO that alot of this is being allowed because no one wants to make anyone mad.


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## st2212 (Dec 14, 2006)

It irritates me when the guy that just shot grabs his binoculars and starts looking to see where he hit. You are suppose to move off of the stake out of the way of the next guy before you glass the target. 


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

People crowding the next stake before prior group has moved on.


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## shooter64 (Nov 8, 2004)

What irritates me the most is it takes almost 4 hours to shoot 20 targets. It took over 3.5 hours to shoot the known 20 on Sunday.


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## yardagegusser (Jun 11, 2005)

half of the people look over to the next target to see how much further or shorter it is. the cell phones piss me off...................


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## JTPArcher (Aug 7, 2002)

Everyone on our range had either 3 or 4 shooters to a stake. It took over four hours to finish each day. Why? Because shooters would not all judge in the first two minutes of getting to the stake. During both days, shooters to the left and right went one-by-one to the stake as if they each had 5 minutes to judge and shoot! It is 2 minutes for the first and one minute for the second! I couldn't believe how long some groups were taking to shoot. 

Also, glassing after the shot-not necessary, especially if you have some annoying a-clown who calls out every arrow after it's shot! (Do I sound bitter? I shot like a chump this weekend, so I deserved every bit of embarrassing announcements of my score)

Cell phones-strictly ban them-no texting, calling, surfing the web....

Discussing yardage-everyone does this but it needs to stop. People get too lax with this rule and next thing you know, someone is asking what you shot the target for while you are standing a foot behind the guy who is fixing to shoot it!

Keeping a journal-I have never been grouped with someone that does this, but have been told that it happens a ton, even in the pro class. You cannot make any notes whatsoever while walking the range! 

Moving a sight after a let-down-only witnessed this a few times in sixteen years, but once was done by a pro(and nothing was said about it). There are people who have no idea about this rule-amazes me!

Now, I don't believe most shooters, at least in my class, are intentionally breaking any of these rules. But, if they are overlooked, it opens the door for controversy. Shooters have to police themselves and their peers in the group and not be afraid to confront someone. I am as guilty as the next guy about not reporting rule violations, but after this incident, I think we will all be more cognisant.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

Well Jonathan, that's what the officials are supposed to be doing. Imo, it's their job to police the range. At one time there were officials that walked the range and kept things in check. When's the last time you saw a stopwatch, or an official for that matter, walking the range and keeping things moving? And then we're ask to pull the last target and bring it back while they've sat on their gator for 4 hours doing nothing.


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## JTPArcher (Aug 7, 2002)

I agree with you-it is their job. In fact, they were clocking a lot of guys in Monroe, but did nothing to violators. However, it is impossible for them to see everything that goes on. 100 shooters and 2 officials is not a good ratio for two ranges. So, competitors have to keep watch (no pun intended). I don't know why people, including myself, are afraid to say something when these rules are broken. 

On another note, it's one thing to shoot 1fps fast through a chrono or glassing a target after the shot or taking 5 seconds too long. I am not belittling some rules, but punishment should fit the crime. Warnings can and usually are given for minor violations. For example, I have seen shooters chrono a bow and have 1-2 fps too much. But the official can let them shoot 3-4 arrows to check for accurate readings. In addition, multiple minor violations may warrant severe consequences. But, moving a sight after letting down, using a range-finding method, or logging notes about targets are blatant and pre-meditated methods of cheating. This is fraudulant and has no place in our sport! As far as I'm concerned, this guy (MV in this case) is a criminal.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

If you want the range officials to check everyones equipment...........lets see approximately 80-100 shooters per range at 2 minutes/shooter that would be at least 2.5 hours just to check equipment. We would either have to start at 5:30 or finish at 2:30 on an 8:00 start time. Which do you want? You as shooters need to police yourselves. If someone is doing something against the rules call them on it. If they persist tell the range official.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

There should be 2 score keepers no groups of friends. a shooters equipment check (looking for range finding devices)no arrows pulled before scores called out. No talking yardage period.Arrow pullers will have total control of score on liners if disagreement in a liner scorekeepers will call it.One look on binos before adjustment to sight. No arrow looking after shot with binos.Having fun is acceptable and incouraged lol.I think most of these rules I have said do apply but in most shoots are not enforced.


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## watermedic23 (Aug 23, 2006)

frog gigger said:


> Well Jonathan, that's what the officials are supposed to be doing. Imo, it's their job to police the range. At one time there were officials that walked the range and kept things in check. When's the last time you saw a stopwatch, or an official for that matter, walking the range and keeping things moving? And then we're ask to pull the last target and bring it back while they've sat on their gator for 4 hours doing nothing.


The last time that I saw this was in LA this year!! It does happen.


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## bowjoe1800 (Sep 8, 2008)

Range officials can't police everyone or group. Police within your group. Any experienced shooter knows what is right, wrong, or unethical. If someone is fairly new or experienced even does something not quite right, warn them or explain the rule. Second time call an official. 
It seems alot of people are getting their panties in a wad over what one person was doing. He knew what he was doing and will wear that scar and cheater label forever.
This hobby is for the enjoyment of great competition and fun for me. Some need to calm down, have fun, police within and not get too crazily strict on some of the rules.
Cell phones, talking yardage after the shots, just a couple to name. IMO


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I've approached a few people over the years about some rules infringements. I usually address them as if they don't know the rule. It seems less offensive than assuming they know and don't care. I've even made an effort before the first target at an ASA to "ask" what the time limit was knowing full well what it was but using that as an unassuming way to refresh it in everybody's minds.

Archery is a self-policing sport. The majority of the rules enforcement lies on our shoulders and should be taken seriously. However a lot of folks are leery about pointing out an infringement in fear that it will call attention to their own equipment and practices. Most of the rule breakers depend on the "everybody just get along" philosophy of shooting. They know that the chances of finding someone that will point out their infractions are pretty small. However, if we all start making a point of enforcing the rules, we will find that it will become less and less necessary over time.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

frog gigger said:


> Well Jonathan, that's what the officials are supposed to be doing. Imo, it's their job to police the range. At one time there were officials that walked the range and kept things in check. When's the last time you saw a stopwatch, or an official for that matter, walking the range and keeping things moving? And then we're ask to pull the last target and bring it back while they've sat on their gator for 4 hours doing nothing.


we had our official walking the range both days. they don't just sit on their gators, they are responsible for unloading and setting the targets and stakes, and doing any resetting as necessary, stake and set the practice range, set up for the pro shoot down, and then tear everything down and box it up after the shoot.
they can't, and should not have to, police all the shooters on the ranges. they can respond to questions and complaints on the range and do so. for the most part they don't get the opportunity to even shoot the pro am because they're the ones who keep it running.
i appreciate what they all do and would never characterize them as lazy or incompetent.
just my two cents worth.


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## wheresthebear (Sep 15, 2009)

carlosii said:


> we had our official walking the range both days. they don't just sit on their gators, they are responsible for unloading and setting the targets and stakes, and doing any resetting as necessary, stake and set the practice range, set up for the pro shoot down, and then tear everything down and box it up after the shoot.
> they can't, and should not have to, police all the shooters on the ranges. they can respond to questions and complaints on the range and do so. for the most part they don't get the opportunity to even shoot the pro am because they're the ones who keep it running.
> i appreciate what they all do and would never characterize them as lazy or incompetent.
> just my two cents worth.



Carlosii you hit the nail on the head. They do a very good job and I would hate to be in there spot. Not only do they have to do all the things that you have listed, they also have to deal with 1000-1200 different personalitys (or how ever you spell it LOL). My hat is off to them.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

carlosii said:


> we had our official walking the range both days. they don't just sit on their gators, they are responsible for unloading and setting the targets and stakes, and doing any resetting as necessary, stake and set the practice range, set up for the pro shoot down, and then tear everything down and box it up after the shoot.
> they can't, and should not have to, police all the shooters on the ranges. they can respond to questions and complaints on the range and do so. for the most part they don't get the opportunity to even shoot the pro am because they're the ones who keep it running.
> i appreciate what they all do and would never characterize them as lazy or incompetent.
> just my two cents worth.


Ours cruised by at target 19 asking that we pull the last target. As long as the shooters police themselves, you're gonna see all the above mentioned rules broken. Why? Because most, like myself, are there to shoot with other people and treat/be treated as we were shooting a range at home. If someone wants to discuss yardage after a shot, I have no problem with that nor have I seen a person that did. In another thread it was mentioned that HE would probably not call someone out over a minor rule infraction. It would just mess up his game as well as the other guy. The 1 minute rule is my gripe. It's a rule not enforced. Enforce it, change it, or have a vendor available selling stopwatches to the shooters. If the shoot has stalled, am I to start walking the range looking for the slow group? No, I'm to stand at the stake until the group ahead of me moves. Like I said, I remember days when the officials meant business. They'd time every group at least once. If you were slow, you got informed. I think too much is in the hands of the shooters. Especially questionable calls on the ring. Nobody wants to call a guy out, nor do they want to give them points. Imo an official should be called upon to score the arrow, with no shooters being present.


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## dave.frost (Sep 16, 2010)

OK I have a crazy idea. Let’s get rid of all the rules we cannot enforce. 
No speed limit, known ranges, rangefinder authorized, whatever tip you want, 14 foot stabilizers, and then we add 15 yards to the max for every group. Now it is all down to how well you shoot. 
That will put everybody on a level playing ground. The only cheater you can’t stop now is the ones with the pencil.
I told you it was CRAZY.


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## Bowhunterark (Aug 23, 2011)

lol dave that would get interesting.!!!!! heres how i see it......it DOES NOT matter what you do in life cheaters are everywhere. some alot more than others but i would way rather turn my score card in with a smile on my face knowing i got spanked and had fun then cheat to win.!!! i love this sport and the family like atmosphere that comes with it. i look threw the bs and do it cause i love it.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

The reality is that some rules are in place for the sake of efficiency, to keep things moving along and not so much for maintain competitive fairness, such as the time limit rules. If you haven't figured it out in 2 minutes as the 1st shooter, or in 1 minute with the benefit of seeing the others shoot, more time probably won't help you (unless you are waiting for the wind to die down, or for the sun to come back out and give you that perfect leaf shadow.) That said, I know I have probably taken more than my allotted time more than a few times, but if I did, I was not doing so with the intent of cheating, just fighting indecision or so much wind that I just couldn't get the shot off in the time allotted. How many times have shooters started to shoot, only to find too much glare and have to get someone to dig out an umbrella and hold it, taking more time. They go over their time, technically a rule violation, but honestly not in the same context as someone using a rangefinder on an unknown distance course.

Rules are rules, and what is written is written, but some common sense has to be used in applying rules - I personally despise "zero tolerance" policies in schools, and generally don't think they are necessary elsewhere. If the facts of the rangefinder case are as reported, certainly strong punishment is due. If a guy is clocked at the next ASA at 289, I really would not complain if the official told him to back his limb bolts off half a turn and allowed them to finish the round... but if they clocked at 320+, I would expect a DQ. The class might even make a difference - 295 fps in novice, first year shooter - warning. 295 fps in Open A - likely DQ, even though the truth is the 7 fps certainly would not be the huge competitive advantage some make it out to be. The point is the Open A guy certainly should know better and know how to keep the bow tuned under the limit, whereas the Novice may not have ever done a thing but shoot the bow the proshop set up for him. In the case under scrutiny, the guy was an experienced shooter in a higher class, so the expectations on him are higher (but again, using a rangefinder on an unknown course at a National level event is hard to make any credible argument against DQ at minimum.) 

Bottom line, rules are in place for many reasons, some for pure competitive fairness, some to try to make the events run more efficiently. All of us will likely agree with some of them, but none of us will likely agree with all, but we all need to respect the rules and those who are charged with the unfortunate task of having to enforce them, because it is a largely thankless job. It is easy to say "Well I'd ban him for life", but when actually confronted with the situation as decisionmaker, you might want a whole lot more information and time before making your decision.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Some people use IPODS that have no texting communication ability because their yardage marks are in an app called Archers Mark on the IPOD. I dont shoot ASA or IBO to know if this is legal or not. I know PDAs are not allowed but a PDA usually has a satelite connection and and a basic generation IPOD has no satelite connection. Some people use the app on an IPHONE too and would be against policy due to it being a phone. It appears they are texting and an IPOD looks like a phone but they might just be looking at yardage tapes and marks stored in the app so they know where to set their sights.

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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

FishAlaska said:


> Some people use IPODS that have no texting communication ability because their yardage marks are in an app called Archers Mark on the IPOD. I dont shoot ASA or IBO to know if this is legal or not. I know PDAs are not allowed but a PDA usually has a satelite connection and and a basic generation IPOD has no satelite connection. Some people use the app on an IPHONE too and would be against policy due to it being a phone. It appears they are texting and an IPOD looks like a phone but they might just be looking at yardage tapes and marks stored in the app so they know where to set their sights.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


The last ASA event I went to I called in advance and asked if using Archer's Mark on my iPhone was legal. I had just set up a bow prior to going to FL that year and didn't have time to make a tape for it. LD Faulks told me it was perfectly fine to use my iPhone with AM on it for my marks.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Spoon13 said:


> The last ASA event I went to I called in advance and asked if using Archer's Mark on my iPhone was legal. I had just set up a bow prior to going to FL that year and didn't have time to make a tape for it. LD Faulks told me it was perfectly fine to use my iPhone with AM on it for my marks.


And that could be misidentified as a rule violation that some are seeing. I figured it was legal. So not everyone with an IPOD or IPHONE is in violation as long as it is not disturbing another shooter is what I gather. It keeps others from trying to look at your sight for yardage too, which by rule you are to keep concealed.

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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

Do your homework ahead of time and you won't have a problem. I think it is fair and should be mandatory for everyone to have cell phones and electronics off til after the shooting is finished. It will be too hard to distinguish for range officials to see what you are doing on your pda, iphone, ipod, etc. Do everyone a favor and keep them off and put away til after the match. It may be inconvenient, but it will help to reduce cheating.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

lknchoppers said:


> Do your homework ahead of time and you won't have a problem. I think it is fair and should be mandatory for everyone to have cell phones and electronics off til after the shooting is finished. It will be too hard to distinguish for range officials to see what you are doing on your pda, iphone, ipod, etc. Do everyone a favor and keep them off and put away til after the match. It may be inconvenient, but it will help to reduce cheating.


He did his homework and called ahead of time. It is legal according to rules too. I assume as long as it is not disturbing people is what the rule states. You cant do anything on a generation 4 IPOD, they have no connectivity unless connected to a computer. They are basically an MP3 player.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree with no limitations as far as rules on equipment. I see no distinct advantage to a few more fps, a stab, a lense, or any of it because all equipment is available to all shooters. Money is not the issue either because a used target setup can be had for the price of a hunting rig if you want to shoot a target bow. I shoot open for that reason even though I use pins and a short bow sometimes. Other times i will go full on target with stabs and a scope. It depends more on which bow I want to shoot that day more than if I am gonna win a plastic trophy. I say leave all the rules and bickering to pro class and everyone else shoots for fun. That way if you want to go for money then by all means do so and deal with the rules. Otherwise, go shoot and have a great time with friends and family.

I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

deepsprayj said:


> I agree with no limitations as far as rules on equipment. I see no distinct advantage to a few more fps, a stab, a lense, or any of it because all equipment is available to all shooters. Money is not the issue either because a used target setup can be had for the price of a hunting rig if you want to shoot a target bow. I shoot open for that reason even though I use pins and a short bow sometimes. Other times i will go full on target with stabs and a scope. It depends more on which bow I want to shoot that day more than if I am gonna win a plastic trophy. I say leave all the rules and bickering to pro class and everyone else shoots for fun. That way if you want to go for money then by all means do so and deal with the rules. Otherwise, go shoot and have a great time with friends and family.
> 
> I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


Amen brother

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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

deepsprayj said:


> I agree with no limitations as far as rules on equipment. I see no distinct advantage to a few more fps, a stab, a lense, or any of it because all equipment is available to all shooters. Money is not the issue either because a used target setup can be had for the price of a hunting rig if you want to shoot a target bow. I shoot open for that reason even though I use pins and a short bow sometimes. Other times i will go full on target with stabs and a scope. It depends more on which bow I want to shoot that day more than if I am gonna win a plastic trophy. I say leave all the rules and bickering to pro class and everyone else shoots for fun. That way if you want to go for money then by all means do so and deal with the rules. Otherwise, go shoot and have a great time with friends and family.
> 
> I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


You lost me. We are talking ASA events here and money is on the line.


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## asa1485 (Jan 16, 2008)

No cameras on the range without approval.....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> Some people use IPODS that have no texting communication ability because their yardage marks are in an app called Archers Mark on the IPOD. I dont shoot ASA or IBO to know if this is legal or not. I know PDAs are not allowed but a PDA usually has a satelite connection and and a basic generation IPOD has no satelite connection. Some people use the app on an IPHONE too and would be against policy due to it being a phone. It appears they are texting and an IPOD looks like a phone but they might just be looking at yardage tapes and marks stored in the app so they know where to set their sights.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


It should be MANDATORY to have either a sight tape, or a sight placard with sight settings on it either mounted on your bow sight or on a print-out in your quiver. An electronic aid, should it fail, is NOT an "equipment failure", so when the electronics go bonkers or the batteries run down...that person is NOT going to be given that repair time out!
Besides that, having your sight marks on the bow and/or on a "table" that you carry with you in your quiver is a huge time saver as opposed to entering in a bunch of information on an app.. I agree that those types of electronics on a 3-D course (and even a field course) that have even a potential of being used for something else (like texting or talking, or communicating with a coach, MP3 players (safety problem) should be banned while on the course shooting the competitions.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Ok fine, it is for money, but c'mon we aren't talking big money or anything really. Unless it can put a roof over my head Im not sweating it. I spend more than I could every possibly win just on travel, gear, food, fees and such. This is my hobby albeit an obsessive one. I shoot local most of the time (NFAA I think) and you wanna try and win those then you really better be prepared to cheat. I see guys cheat in all kinds of ways and for what? Nothing, but a 50 cent ribbon! I once shot my FITA recurve and you shoulda seen the holy hell that was raised when I beat the recurve guys and the Freestyle limited cats. I told them to throw my card in the trash and give the medals to the other guys because I was shooting for fun.

I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm willing to bet there will be some changes at the next shoot. Groups will be policing themselves as well as range officials will be on their toes. Just wait and see.
I bet they are reading these threads and are going to make some changes and start enforcing the rules better.

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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

deepsprayj said:


> Ok fine, it is for money, but c'mon we aren't talking big money or anything really. Unless it can put a roof over my head Im not sweating it. I spend more than I could every possibly win just on travel, gear, food, fees and such. This is my hobby albeit an obsessive one. I shoot local most of the time (NFAA I think) and you wanna try and win those then you really better be prepared to cheat. I see guys cheat in all kinds of ways and for what? Nothing, but a 50 cent ribbon! I once shot my FITA recurve and you shoulda seen the holy hell that was raised when I beat the recurve guys and the Freestyle limited cats. I told them to throw my card in the trash and give the medals to the other guys because I was shooting for fun.
> 
> I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


Ya it is serious business for some. That is fine, I can appreciate that. For you it appears you just enjoy it for fun and I can appreciate that too. 


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

It is just a whole lot simpler to put a sight tape on and not have people look at you pulling your electronics out. Then they have to understand what it is and if it is legal or not.



FishAlaska said:


> He did his homework and called ahead of time. It is legal according to rules too. I assume as long as it is not disturbing people is what the rule states. You cant do anything on a generation 4 IPOD, they have no connectivity unless connected to a computer. They are basically an MP3 player.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## MasterG (Jul 25, 2006)

Bowhunterark said:


> lol dave that would get interesting.!!!!! heres how i see it......it DOES NOT matter what you do in life cheaters are everywhere. some alot more than others but i would way rather turn my score card in with a smile on my face knowing i got spanked and had fun then cheat to win.!!! i love this sport and the family like atmosphere that comes with it. i look threw the bs and do it cause i love it.


AMEN Brother!


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## rs3711 (May 1, 2008)

frog gigger said:


> Ours cruised by at target 19 asking that we pull the last target. As long as the shooters police themselves, you're gonna see all the above mentioned rules broken. Why? Because most, like myself, are there to shoot with other people and treat/be treated as we were shooting a range at home. If someone wants to discuss yardage after a shot, I have no problem with that nor have I seen a person that did. In another thread it was mentioned that HE would probably not call someone out over a minor rule infraction. It would just mess up his game as well as the other guy. The 1 minute rule is my gripe. It's a rule not enforced. Enforce it, change it, or have a vendor available selling stopwatches to the shooters. If the shoot has stalled, am I to start walking the range looking for the slow group? No, I'm to stand at the stake until the group ahead of me moves. Like I said, I remember days when the officials meant business. They'd time every group at least once. If you were slow, you got informed. I think too much is in the hands of the shooters. Especially questionable calls on the ring. Nobody wants to call a guy out, nor do they want to give them points. Imo an official should be called upon to score the arrow, with no shooters being present.


Do you know how long it would take to shoot 20 targets if we had to wait on the range official to call every "questionable" arrow? Their tongues would be hanging out from all the running they would be doing. Arrow calling is not that hard (although I like to keep score so I don't have to call, lol). If you have to look that hard, it is IN! The range officials are there to enforce any rule infractions that are brought to their attention by the group. We SHOULD police ourselves. It would take an official on every target to do it any other way. IMHO.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

lknchoppers said:


> It is just a whole lot simpler to put a sight tape on and not have people look at you pulling your electronics out. Then they have to understand what it is and if it is legal or not.


I agree but within the rules. Easier and faster to not use binos either and people wont have to wonder if they are legal. Same difference. With an IPOD there is no way for others to see your sight marks. They can use what you have your sight set on but it is not a yardage reference. Plus you dont have to worry about rain and your tape becoming unreadable.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> I agree but within the rules. Easier and faster to not use binos either and people wont have to wonder if they are legal. Same difference. With an IPOD there is no way for others to see your sight marks. They can use what you have your sight set on but it is not a yardage reference. Plus you dont have to worry about rain and your tape becoming unreadable.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


If you are ProActive, you make sure that your tape is weather and water proof, AND you carry a backup print-out of the individual sight marks too. IF the batteries fail on that iPod...you will NOT be provided an equipment failure time out to go off the course to get things rectified. If the iPod fails for whatever reason, you are dead in the water.
I think it is not wise to go out on a course without at least a written set of sight marks so that "when" something goes whacky, you have that back up.
I've shot field outdoors since the late 1960's, and I've always thought ahead of the game and made darned sure that the sight marks were weatherproof AND had additional 'backups' to make darned sure that if the sight settings tape moved or was otherwise compromised, I could still continue to shoot without missing a beat.
This set of backup systems is explained in detail in a Chapter that will be in my soon to be published book about ProActive Archery....

IMHO, there is no excuse not to have a directly visible set of sight marks on the BOW. You can cover them easily as required, but they are ON THE BOW and you don't have to rely on an iPod or application to do the work, and to cause 'questionable' looks from your peers while you "calculate" or "look up" your information.

ProActive archers always have backups and ready access to them.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

_"The use of cell phones or other personal communication devices for any form of communication is prohibited during competition. All cell phones, PDA’s and pagers are to be turned off. Unless prior arrangements with the Range Official and their shooting group have been made due to a personal situation, a shooter will receive a five point deduction if they use or disturb another competitor with such a device, and the device will be surrendered"_

This is straight from the ASA rule book. So as it reads, the only way you are allowed to use these devices legally is with prior permission such as Spoon13 did. 

I don't like the thought of people being able to text their buddy who is shooting behind them the distances of each shot. Cell phones open an easy door to cheating.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I have to disagree. It is not the same at all.



FishAlaska said:


> I agree but within the rules. Easier and faster to not use binos either and people wont have to wonder if they are legal. Same difference. With an IPOD there is no way for others to see your sight marks. They can use what you have your sight set on but it is not a yardage reference. Plus you dont have to worry about rain and your tape becoming unreadable.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## rs3711 (May 1, 2008)

deepsprayj said:


> I agree with no limitations as far as rules on equipment. I see no distinct advantage to a few more fps, a stab, a lense, or any of it because all equipment is available to all shooters. Money is not the issue either because a used target setup can be had for the price of a hunting rig if you want to shoot a target bow. I shoot open for that reason even though I use pins and a short bow sometimes. Other times i will go full on target with stabs and a scope. It depends more on which bow I want to shoot that day more than if I am gonna win a plastic trophy. I say leave all the rules and bickering to pro class and everyone else shoots for fun. That way if you want to go for money then by all means do so and deal with the rules. Otherwise, go shoot and have a great time with friends and family.
> 
> I am blessed with a wife that shares my addictions


So a guy with a 27" draw is supposed to compete with a guy with a 32" draw with no speed limitations? A FEW more fps? There's quite a bit of difference in fps between those two. The "speed limit" puts everyone on a level playing field. As far as the "bickering", I have never been involved in any kind of argument nor have I seen one at an ASA shoot. Just because one guy is caught with a range finder does not mean we need to change the rules for everyone else. I think the ASA does a wonderful job running their tournaments. They have rules in place that everyone is expected to follow. If you see someone cheating, report it to the range official.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

shootist said:


> _"The use of cell phones or other personal communication devices for any form of communication is prohibited during competition. All cell phones, PDA’s and pagers are to be turned off. Unless prior arrangements with the Range Official and their shooting group have been made due to a personal situation, a shooter will receive a five point deduction if they use or disturb another competitor with such a device, and the device will be surrendered"_
> 
> This is straight from the ASA rule book. So as it reads, the only way you are allowed to use these devices legally is with prior permission such as Spoon13 did.
> 
> I don't like the thought of people being able to text their buddy who is shooting behind them the distances of each shot. Cell phones open an easy door to cheating.


True but a gen 4 IPOD is not a communication device. You cant talk or text on it.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> If you are ProActive, you make sure that your tape is weather and water proof, AND you carry a backup print-out of the individual sight marks too. IF the batteries fail on that iPod...you will NOT be provided an equipment failure time out to go off the course to get things rectified. If the iPod fails for whatever reason, you are dead in the water.
> I think it is not wise to go out on a course without at least a written set of sight marks so that "when" something goes whacky, you have that back up.
> I've shot field outdoors since the late 1960's, and I've always thought ahead of the game and made darned sure that the sight marks were weatherproof AND had additional 'backups' to make darned sure that if the sight settings tape moved or was otherwise compromised, I could still continue to shoot without missing a beat.
> This set of backup systems is explained in detail in a Chapter that will be in my soon to be published book about ProActive Archery....
> ...


You can make a backup hardcopy from the application. Most usually have that in their quiver. I have 10 different sets of marks in the application depending on the setup I am using. It is very practical. I might change scopes the day of the shoot depending on overcast or sunny. Sight tapes would be different and thus not having one on the sight is easier. More technology and more money. Some can afford it some cant. Versatility.


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## dave.frost (Sep 16, 2010)

rs3711 said:


> So a guy with a 27" draw is supposed to compete with a guy with a 32" draw with no speed limitations? A FEW more fps? There's quite a bit of difference in fps between those two. The "speed limit" puts everyone on a level playing field. As far as the "bickering", I have never been involved in any kind of argument nor have I seen one at an ASA shoot. Just because one guy is caught with a range finder does not mean we need to change the rules for everyone else. I think the ASA does a wonderful job running their tournaments. They have rules in place that everyone is expected to follow. If you see someone cheating, report it to the range official.


If you know the distance what does it matter how fast your arrow is?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

field14 said:


> If you are ProActive, you make sure that your tape is weather and water proof, AND you carry a backup print-out of the individual sight marks too. IF the batteries fail on that iPod...you will NOT be provided an equipment failure time out to go off the course to get things rectified. If the iPod fails for whatever reason, you are dead in the water.
> I think it is not wise to go out on a course without at least a written set of sight marks so that "when" something goes whacky, you have that back up.
> I've shot field outdoors since the late 1960's, and I've always thought ahead of the game and made darned sure that the sight marks were weatherproof AND had additional 'backups' to make darned sure that if the sight settings tape moved or was otherwise compromised, I could still continue to shoot without missing a beat.
> This set of backup systems is explained in detail in a Chapter that will be in my soon to be published book about ProActive Archery....
> ...



For the record, there was a tape on my sight. I just happened to be for an older bow that I wasn't shooting and had nothing to do with the setup I was currently using. And while you are correct that should the iPod or iPhone quit working one shouldn't be allowed time to "fix" the problem, a proactive shooter would make sure that the iPod/iPhone was fully charged BEFORE going out on the course. I even went so far as to show the rest of the group that day what I was gonna be doing. I showed them Archer's Mark and how it displayed my marks so there wouldn't be any confusion when I got to the stake and began looking at my phone. It was common courtesy.

And truthfully it came in real handy. My marks weren't that solid going in and I was able to make an adjustment on the course to the information in Archer's Mark and fix my marks "real time" instead of shooting 45 for 43 or whatever change was necessary. All I had to do was set it for what yardage I wanted and let it eat.

It never caused a problem all weekend. The shooters in my group were aware of what I was doing and understood. It only took me an additional 5-10 seconds to get the mark I needed. I was actually a little quicker at the stake than one of the other guys in the group and he had a tape on his sight.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

FishAlaska said:


> True but a gen 4 IPOD is not a communication device. You cant talk or text on it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Perhaps not from the factory, but I believe there are apps available that do allow for those uses.

With what has just transpired, I expect that all electronic and optic devices used on archery ranges will be very closely scrutinized for a while, so anyone depending on their I-Pod or other device for their marks likely should consider printing a set in case the next range official you meet doesn't share your appreciation for technology.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

Spoon13 said:


> I even went so far as to show the rest of the group that day what I was gonna be doing. I showed them Archer's Mark and how it displayed my marks so there wouldn't be any confusion when I got to the stake and began looking at my phone. It was common courtesy.
> 
> And truthfully it came in real handy. My marks weren't that solid going in and I was able to make an adjustment on the course to the information in Archer's Mark and fix my marks "real time" instead of shooting 45 for 43 or whatever change was necessary. All I had to do was set it for what yardage I wanted and let it eat.
> 
> It never caused a problem all weekend. The shooters in my group were aware of what I was doing and understood. It only took me an additional 5-10 seconds to get the mark I needed. I was actually a little quicker at the stake than one of the other guys in the group and he had a tape on his sight.


You may have just given some folks more reasons to question this approach. If you showed the other guys your marks program ahead of time, and they could see for example that 30 yards = engraved mark 50, and did not have your engraved marks covered, that could be a problem (I don't know if you did or not, just pointing out a potential issue.) Second, because the technology allowed you to make "in the field" adjustments, those in charge may deem that an unfair advantage and prohibit the use of such resources on the course in the future.

Heck, it is probably possible to program your phone or I-Pod to measure the distance from point A to point B, so a guy could be using it on the course to measure from target to stake after pulling the arrows. With all the capabilities of electronic devices these days, any use of them on the archery range will likely raise some suspicions, especially after last weekend.

I have kids so I do usually have my phone on my belt or in my pocket at local events. Typically, about target 17 on a slow day, my wife will call. Because I don't know if someone could be sick or hurt, I will tell the closest person in my group - it is my wife calling, let me make sure everyone is OK. Then I answer and say _"I'm still shooting, is everything OK ? When she says "Yes" I simply say "I'll call you back when I am done", then apologize to my group-mates. At ASA or other big events, I generally leave the phone in the car or turn it off. If something bad happens to someone, they'll just have to control the bleeding until I finish I guess.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

dgmeadows said:


> Perhaps not from the factory, but I believe there are apps available that do allow for those uses.
> 
> With what has just transpired, I expect that all electronic and optic devices used on archery ranges will be very closely scrutinized for a while, so anyone depending on their I-Pod or other device for their marks likely should consider printing a set in case the next range official you meet doesn't share your appreciation for technology.


Yes a printed copy is good. If a person is of the nature to cheat...they are gonna find a way. Much easier ways mentioned here in this thread. Count steps of the group ahead of you as they walk to target. Set binos focus at a known yardage before shoot. Know how many strokes each way equals 5 yards. Focus on target and coumt strokes subtract from where they were set. That one is used and you would never catch the shooter. No marks needed on the binos. Probably the most used method to cheat their is along with buddies up ahead texting yardage back to shooters.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Spoon13 said:


> For the record, there was a tape on my sight. I just happened to be for an older bow that I wasn't shooting and had nothing to do with the setup I was currently using. And while you are correct that should the iPod or iPhone quit working one shouldn't be allowed time to "fix" the problem, a proactive shooter would make sure that the iPod/iPhone was fully charged BEFORE going out on the course. I even went so far as to show the rest of the group that day what I was gonna be doing. I showed them Archer's Mark and how it displayed my marks so there wouldn't be any confusion when I got to the stake and began looking at my phone. It was common courtesy.
> 
> And truthfully it came in real handy. My marks weren't that solid going in and I was able to make an adjustment on the course to the information in Archer's Mark and fix my marks "real time" instead of shooting 45 for 43 or whatever change was necessary. All I had to do was set it for what yardage I wanted and let it eat.
> 
> It never caused a problem all weekend. The shooters in my group were aware of what I was doing and understood. It only took me an additional 5-10 seconds to get the mark I needed. I was actually a little quicker at the stake than one of the other guys in the group and he had a tape on his sight.


A few sbooters in our area use them too. Never had an issue in fact most find it very cool. It takes just about as long as grabbing a release out of a pouch.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

A few sbooters in our area use them too. Never had an issue in fact most find it very cool. It takes just about as long as grabbing a release out of a pouch. There is no typing involved or tapping of the screen in a typing motion. Just a swype to scroll and that is it.


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

dgmeadows said:


> You may have just given some folks more reasons to question this approach. If you showed the other guys your marks program ahead of time, and they could see for example that 30 yards = engraved mark 50, and did not have your engraved marks covered, that could be a problem (I don't know if you did or not, just pointing out a potential issue.) Second, because the technology allowed you to make "in the field" adjustments, those in charge may deem that an unfair advantage and prohibit the use of such resources on the course in the future.
> 
> Heck, it is probably possible to program your phone or I-Pod to measure the distance from point A to point B, so a guy could be using it on the course to measure from target to stake after pulling the arrows. With all the capabilities of electronic devices these days, any use of them on the archery range will likely raise some suspicions, especially after last weekend.
> 
> I have kids so I do usually have my phone on my belt or in my pocket at local events. Typically, about target 17 on a slow day, my wife will call. Because I don't know if someone could be sick or hurt, I will tell the closest person in my group - it is my wife calling, let me make sure everyone is OK. Then I answer and say _"I'm still shooting, is everything OK ? When she says "Yes" I simply say "I'll call you back when I am done", then apologize to my group-mates. At ASA or other big events, I generally leave the phone in the car or turn it off. If something bad happens to someone, they'll just have to control the bleeding until I finish I guess.


I see your point. When they ban them, we follow the rules. Until then, they are legal according to ASA. I dont shoot ASA so it really doesnt pertain to me but isnt it depending on your class that you can adjust equipment all you want in certain class, maybe not.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

FishAlaska said:


> I see your point. When they ban them, we follow the rules. Until then, they are legal according to ASA. I dont shoot ASA so it really doesnt pertain to me but isnt it depending on your class that you can adjust equipment all you want in certain class, maybe not.


Yes, open classes (non-fixed pins) can make any and all adjustments at any time. I believe fixed pins can make one "gang" adjustment during a round. I think my first hypo above - showing the marks program to the group, who might could then use the info to check your yardage when you shoot ahead of them - is a closer call on the rules re: covering your sight tape. You would not necessarily be the one cheating, but your practice could theoretically be viewed the same as shooting with an uncovered tape, allowing others the possibility to cheat, and a technical rule violation.

As for the second statement, I agree you are likely within the rules, especially if the ASA folks have said it was OK, but I would not be surprised if they do tighten the reins on the handheld technology and optics. 

Personally, I may have to look into the software myself. It would be great to be able to input information at the range rather than writing it down and taking it back to the computer. I will stick to the tape on the sight approach, though. I have witnessed too many "math errors" when people try to convert from their handheld charts to the engraved marks on the bow. I don't need to confuse myself any more than I already do when guessing yardage.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

FishAlaska said:


> True but a gen 4 IPOD is not a communication device. You cant talk or text on it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Isn't it basically a PDA


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

jimb said:


> Isn't it basically a PDA


A PDA usually has some sort of connectivity or communication. The older gen 4 IPODS do not have internal network connectivity like a blackberry or droid PDA.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

rs3711 said:


> Do you know how long it would take to shoot 20 targets if we had to wait on the range official to call every "questionable" arrow? Their tongues would be hanging out from all the running they would be doing. Arrow calling is not that hard (although I like to keep score so I don't have to call, lol). If you have to look that hard, it is IN! The range officials are there to enforce any rule infractions that are brought to their attention by the group. We SHOULD police ourselves. It would take an official on every target to do it any other way. IMHO.


Example: Arrow is touching the connector line inside the 11. There is meat between the two lines that keeps it from actually connecting with the 12 on some targets. What's the call??


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

If the 12 and the 11 lines don't run together then it is a 10.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> If the 12 and the 11 lines don't run together then it is a 10.


That's how I would call it, but the rule states if touching the connector it's a 12. The arrow would be at least 1/4 out in this situation and should not get the call imo if there is meat between the two. Some groups will get that call and some won't. Therefore my suggestion that the official make the unbiased call.


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## birddawg (Jul 23, 2009)

I do not think its that hard gig If the arrow is touching the line the surrounds the 12 ring its a twelve in ur example there is not connection line because the two are seperated as u put it by meat the only way there whould be a connection line is if the line surrounding the twelve and the line surrounding the eleven were connected thus the term.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

birddawg said:


> I do not think its that hard gig If the arrow is touching the line the surrounds the 12 ring its a twelve in ur example there is not connection line because the two are seperated as u put it by meat the only way there whould be a connection line is if the line surrounding the twelve and the line surrounding the eleven were connected thus the term.


Then what's your call J Man? I don't think it's that hard either, but you'll have those that say '' had the two connected as they should have, I would have the 12.'' Just like a shot out line. '' If the line were there, I would have the 12". Most do connect in that certain spot but some don't. Guess it depends on how one would interpret the rule. I don't like getting on my knees to make calls, but sometimes you have to tell for sure.


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## birddawg (Jul 23, 2009)

I think if tyhe line surrounding the eleven and the line suuroundinthe tweleve are connected then the call is a twelve but if thet are not connected its a ten Imho opinion anyone that calls it different is wrong they are tryiong to bend the rules to meettheir agenda


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

FishAlaska said:


> A PDA usually has some sort of connectivity or communication. The older gen 4 IPODS do not have internal network connectivity like a blackberry or droid PDA.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


PDA=Public Display of Affection....:jksign:


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## jjw3 (Mar 20, 2006)

FishAlaska said:


> Some people use IPODS that have no texting communication ability because their yardage marks are in an app called Archers Mark on the IPOD. I dont shoot ASA or IBO to know if this is legal or not. I know PDAs are not allowed but a PDA usually has a satelite connection and and a basic generation IPOD has no satelite connection. Some people use the app on an IPHONE too and would be against policy due to it being a phone. It appears they are texting and an IPOD looks like a phone but they might just be looking at yardage tapes and marks stored in the app so they know where to set their sights.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


I see this a LOT.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

carlosii said:


> PDA=Public Display of Affection....:jksign:


Military No No. Been there done that...get the check every month!

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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

frog gigger said:


> That's how I would call it, but the rule states if touching the connector it's a 12. The arrow would be at least 1/4 out in this situation and should not get the call imo if there is meat between the two. Some groups will get that call and some won't. Therefore my suggestion that the official make the unbiased call.


The rules also state you must touch the higher scoring line, and if the 12 and 11 don't touch it is a 10......the hyena is a target that frequently has a gap between the 11 and 12 rings.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

reylamb said:


> The rules also state you must touch the higher scoring line, and if the 12 and 11 don't touch it is a 10......the hyena is a target that frequently has a gap between the 11 and 12 rings.


I'll remember that reylamb. That's the very target I'm talking about and the majority went with the 12 call because it was on the connector.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

reylamb said:


> The rules also state you must touch the higher scoring line, and if the 12 and 11 don't touch it is a 10......the hyena is a target that frequently has a gap between the 11 and 12 rings.


What is difficult for 3-Ders to understand when shooting "spots"...is that, in spot shooting, there is NO SUCH THING AS PULLING A LINE!
In spots, the arrow is called as it lies, not as it "hit". Just because the puncture of the arrow has "pulled the paper" out of position does NOT give the shooter the higher value! You must TOUCH the line, and that means the UNDEFORMED line in order to score the higher value. 3-Ders have a really hard time with this when scoring or calling scores during a "spot" competition. Can't have an arrow "out" by 1/4" and just cuz the paper is pulled out, get the higher value. Doesn't work that way.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

field14 said:


> What is difficult for 3-Ders to understand when shooting "spots"...is that, in spot shooting, there is NO SUCH THING AS PULLING A LINE!
> In spots, the arrow is called as it lies, not as it "hit". Just because the puncture of the arrow has "pulled the paper" out of position does NOT give the shooter the higher value! You must TOUCH the line, and that means the UNDEFORMED line in order to score the higher value. 3-Ders have a really hard time with this when scoring or calling scores during a "spot" competition. Can't have an arrow "out" by 1/4" and just cuz the paper is pulled out, get the higher value. Doesn't work that way.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)




3Ders call em where they lie, not where they hit. If the line has been deformed in 3d, more power to you, you are touching the line.

Vast difference indoors. I have had 4 seperate Line Judges make rulings on my arrows at 2 different venues, Vegas and Indoor Nats. The line had been torn in all 4 cases, and all 4 different judges, including the esteemed Dean himself, all said the same thing, it is touching the line....now replace the face. You can't exactly replace the face in 3D. 

What do you propose, calling where the line should be?

It is simple, touching is touching, not touching is not touching. In this specific example, the hyena target especially is known for the 12 ring to not be touching the center 11 ring. It happens. On the other targets, the 12 and 11 run together, and that is the connector. You can be on the inside of the center 11 where it runs together with the 12 and get the 12, at the "connector." On some targets, especially the hyena, the 12 and 11 do not touch, so being on the center side of the 11 should not get the 12 because the lines are not connected.......

Have you even shot a national 3D shoot since they started putting the IBO and ASA scoring rings on all the targets, ie the targets now have the connector? I have never seen 3Ders have problems scoring indoors.

3Ders do not typically have issues with scoring, it is just on the one target when folks want to argue for some reason.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

Hell I hit the break down bags because of the crowd on Sunday's


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## huntone08 (Aug 20, 2007)

*Step up or shut up!!*

*One person gets caught cheating and we are going to bring out all the rules? REALLY? If you are allowing these things to happen in your group then your part of the problem!! The group is responsible for enforcing the rules just as much as the range officials!! There are many NEW archers that don't know all the rules all it takes is a little guidance...If they continue to ignore the rules then get the range official!! *


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