# Must a good coach also be a good archer?



## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

Must a coach be an excellent archer in order to be a good coach?

Or is it enough for a coach to be a good teacher, even though s/he may be a mediocre archer?

Or does a good archer always make for a good coach?

Personally, I believe that a coach does not have to be a top notch archer in order to be a great coach. You see this a lot in other sports, that athletes who are "over the hill" start working as coaches. Soccer/football is one of the premier examples of the fact that a (former) top athlete may end up being a lousy coach.

I know there was a thread on what it takes to be a good coach a while back, and I don't want to warm up the discussion over Coach Kisik Lee's qualifications, so please refrain from any discussions in that direction.

I'm curious as to what you all think: How good an archer does a coach have to be?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*????*

I chose the 3rd answer about coaching usually the coach was a good archer but as the years take our eye sight and physical ability's we just don`t shoot as well BUT THERE IS A WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE STORED IN THE MEMORY BANK... also coaching is also delivery of the knowledge to the student... how it is put forward and enforced... as well... older people come with these traits that have been developed and practiced as well .. maybe a fourth option could have been added .. a good coach usually at some time was a good archer....or on those lines...


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## aussie (Jul 15, 2003)

Good archers don't necessarily make good coaches. Because the reason they became good archers is that they had a total belief in the way they shot being the right way and total confidence in this. All this is fine for them, however, not all people are built the same and what works for one may not work for another, but the good archer only knows one way that works, his way and it has to be this way for him because he has to have total trust and confidence in what he is doing for him to be a successful archer. So, unless you are able to adopt his way of shooting, you will not proceed beyond a certain point. Unfortunately in order to be very successful as a competitor, you have to believe that your way is the best way and the only way.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i agree about needing the 4th option as stated by classichunter....or something similar..


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

There is no right answer. Too many variables and too many different kinds of students. I know the US Table Tennis Association (I am a certified coach in that organization) requires competitive proficiency ratings (table tennis uses a rating system similar to chess to rate competitive players) for its coaches-for example, to be a regional coach you need a 2000+ rating (which is a very strong player) and a national coach has to be even higher though there are some exceptions. It would be akin to saying a level II has to have a 1000 star, a Level III an 1150 Star, and a level IV a 1250 Star. I note that one of the best table tennis coaches in our part of the country is equivalent to a 900 level FITA recurve archer and one of the best skeet coaches I ever had, when I was shooting world competitive scores on the international circuit could hardly shoot.

Another point is that it appears that some of the current wisdom is that the powers that be that currently run the top level coaching in the USA wanted, as a cadre, people who do not have much of a record of recurve competition perhaps because there is a feeling that a 1320 level archer might have positions and views that would clash with what is the current system. I understand the concept of uniformity in a coaching system is desireable but I also understand the danger of people who have never been at elite levels not understanding the mindset etc of elite athletes


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I think a coach must have sufficient archery skill for his shooting to be respected so that what he says will be trusted by his students. After that good knowledge and observation skills.
He's got to be a teacher and one who can adapt his suggestions to the individual.
He doesn't have to be top class and as others suggest perhaps that would be a draw back.


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

I think a good coach does not have to be the most accurate in the world, but should be able to at least demonstrate all aspects of the shot.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I think the question should first be, what's the distinction between a "good" and a "great" coach?

There are a lot of people out there who are considered "great" coaches, but who is to say what that means? I feel it that at the top levels of any sport, it should be results-based. 

Just because someone is a "level IV" certfied coach doesn't make them a great coach. Producing a whole lot of 1250 shooters, or even 1300 shooters doesn't make them a great coach. Who have they coached to a World Championship?

I think that description should be reserved for someone who is capable *and has a track* record of producing world class and world champions archers. That really limits the number.

Anyone can tell somebody what they're doing wrong. A lot of people can tell somebody what they should be doing right. But very few people are capable of showing somebody HOW to do it right, and guiding them through the process.

So, who are the coaches behind the last few World Champions? Were they at one time top competitors?


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## dominator (Jan 2, 2004)

*coaching*

I believe that a great coach has to have a passion for learning and understanding the principles and skills necessary to become a great archer, but even a greater desire to pass that knowledge on to others. I think that a great archer or a mediocre archer with an intense desire to teach can become a great coach, and the greatest coaches not only teach archery but teach and mold young minds in a positive direction. They're also great role models and mentors. Al Henderson was a great coach, and I believe what he taught his students about life were the most important lessons.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I believe that a great coach will be able to produce better archers. 
A competition background does gain one respect, but it doesn't imply an understanding of how to handle each individual archer to get the best out of them. 
A coaches ability will always be reflected in the gains of a willing student.
It won't necessarily be seen on his own scorecard.

How many great athletes have you met that can't tell you what they do?


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

In my mind, a good coach needs a couple of things.

First, he needs to have a good level of knowledge in all aspects of the sport, so that he can identify any/all problems, and know how to fix them, as well as answer all questions accurately. 

Second, the coach needs to be able to relay that information effectively to that student. The student needs to be able to "get it", and fully grasp what the coach is teaching. Some people are not very good at this step. 

Finally, the coach needs to be trusted by the student. If the archer does not think that the coach knows what he is doing, then he will not pick up what he is teaching, and all that time will have been wasted. 

If it takes the coach to be a great archer for the 3rd qualification to be met, the sure, he needs to be a great shot. If that is not what it takes (and this is all dependent on the individual student) then fine.


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## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

I believe that a good coach has to be a reasonably competent archer. He must be able to demonstrate technique and, in my opinion, should be well versed in various methods of shooting, not just the BEST method. He should be able to evaluate what an archer's strengths and weaknesses are and incorporate pieces of various methods into that archer's routine. We are not machines, made the same way, and many have physical limitations that preclude using an entire method, as described in a book, so the coach must have the knowledge and experience to recognize the problem(s) and be able to make changes for that particular archer. Without having experienced these various methods, from a shooting point of view, how can a coach be expected to understand the ramifications sufficiently well enough to competently suggest a change?


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

"The mediocre coach tells,the good coach explains,the superior coach demonstrates,the great coach inspires." 
Stan Patterson

that quote is lifted from Rick Mckinney's "The Simple Art of Winning"----one of the best instructional archery books of all time..


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## ken.nan63 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Coach ability along with shooting ability!!!*

I think that a coach should posses the ability to be a midlevel shooter. 

A coach must posses the ability to communate with archers on their level of understanding.

I have saw people with all the shooting ability in the world but could not pass their thoughts on. 

Coach must have the ability to coach and diagnose a problem and have the ability to fix the problem with in a few arrows.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I would add that someone who coaches a discipline might not need to be as good a competitor as someone who coaches a reactive sport.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> (snip)... I also understand the danger of people who have never been at elite levels not understanding the mindset etc of elite athletes


I wholeheartedly agree with you on this.

It is very difficult to teach a winning attitude if the coaching staff has not won something themselves and has learned how to overcome adversity.

With that being said, a lot of elite athletes have a different mindset to begin with. 

Sports Psychoanalyst Michael Miletec views that elite level jocks in any sport have the ability to compartmentalize things far better than most people. I don't necessarily agree as to why he feels that compartmentalization occurs more efficiently and effectively in athletes, but I do agree that those who can do so are more effective athletes.

Feedback analysis is another trait that elite athletes are good at. Picking from my other shooting sport teaching side (pistol/rifle), I have dealt with, trained with, and trained against many people who are KATN style people who are total feedback freaks that use the feedback to relentlessly refine their methods. 

Why? A lot of the people I've dealt with use firearms as a tool for their job. If they don't hone their skills constantly, they may experience the ultimate letdown in some way, shape, or form....mostly manifesting itself as a dead person who was their teammate, platoon mate, or hostage.

So, an effective coach for elite level athletes will observe, guide, and help refine. But most of all - they are the ultimate people person controllers, who have perfected the art of motivating and getting into those compartments that the athlete has put up, pushing the right buttons for success. 

-Steve


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

going back to the OP's question of how good an archer a coach must be....

he has to be quite good-- now or at one time or another...

i would personally find it difficult to respect and have confidence in a coach with no proven(past or present) shooting skills..

of course he also has to have all the other skills previously discussed depending on what kind on coach he wants to be---mediocre,good,superior, or great...

PS..i have had only 2 coaches--one was a member of the 1984 men's korean olympic archery team and the other one was our country's lone female archer in the 2000 olympics..

another PS..i am referring to coaches for the highest level of archers...for lower level archers the shooting skill level of a coach may not need to be as high but they still have to be good archers(at least 1250+ fita?)--at one time or another..


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

jmvargas said:


> i would personally find it difficult to respect and have confidence in a coach with no proven(past or present) shooting skills..


That is exactly what I was talking about. As long as he knows what he is doing, can communicate ideas to you, and you trust him, he will be good. You wouldn't trust him in this instance, so it would not work. But, other students might trust him, and so he might make a good coach for them.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I feel I'm a better coach than I ever was a shooter. Don't get me worng, I was and still am proficient. my post-op personal best is a 300/47X. It is just really painful for me to shoot.

There are many (myself included) that have been side-lined from competition due to injury that have found great joy in coaching. Just ask "Miss Ginger" (Ginger Hopwood) she is the one that helped "put me back together" and turned me on to the true joy and fulfillment of coaching.


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## Spiderkiller (Jan 30, 2007)

*My thoughts*

I think that decent coaches must have the understanding of their sport. 

Good coaches have the concepts, techniques, and methods to make thier athletes successful. 

Great coaches want their athletes to be more successful than their coaching ability.

The truly exceptional coach has all of the above and must have the ability to communicate the sport they are coaching. (Some have the knowledge, but do not possess the skill of communication) The exceptional coach demonstrates their understanding that their athlete(s) are people, and care about their success as a whole person, not just as a performer in the sport they are doing.

Being a great shooter really doesn't have anything to do with great coaching. Although if the coach doesn't understand what the shooter is going through mentally in the competition or how to enhance better performance, it will be difficult for them to be a great coach. My .02 cents.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Obvoiusly it helps to be a top competitor to get an archer to listen to you. However you must be able to communicate the information you want to impart and you must not impart too much at one time. 

John Williams (1972 Olympic Gold Medalist) coached Luann Ryon (1976 Olympic Gold Medalist) and Lynette Johnson (1980 Olympic team member who did not get to represent her country). He was also the 1984 Olympic Coach and I felt he was one of the better team coaches.

On the other hand, if a person can coach an archer to a very high level, then other archers will listen to them. Take for instance Al Henderson. I don't think he won anything major but since he coached 100's of archers and some to World and Olympic calibre he was respected and sought after. 

These are two extremes but it shows that as long as you have an understanding of the game and an ability to communicate to the archer you will be a fine coach. Most coaches have such a big ego, it hurts the archer. There is only one person allowed to have the ego and that is the archer....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think that sums it up. I've told more than one aspiring coach that before being considered a "top" coach, somewhere along the way, they need to estabilsh some credibility. Credibility in the eyes of the prospective archer/student is critical. 

There are two ways to do this: 1) Obtain world class experience as an archer, or 2) Coach archers to the world class level. 

I don't see any alternative to either of these things.

However, of the two, I'd look toward the coach that has experience coaching world class athletes. Many great archers really don't have the communication skills or the ability to shift the focus off themselves. Elite athletes by necessity are very focused and selfish with that focus. I think few learn to redirect that toward a student, but some have.

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i can't fault the 2 ways to obtain credibility mentioned by john m.....


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

Well, my reason for starting this thread/poll wasn't just curiosity. I am thankful for all the interesting input. See, I am an impassioned archer, but I know that, due to my poor eyesight (shortsighted, nystagmus & astagmatism), I will never rise above being an intermediate archer. But I am a teacher and a clinical instructor of nursing, and people tell me that I have a talent for being able to communicate things, in particular how to perform specific tasks, in a readily understood manner. 

Our club's president has asked me whether I would consider training to become a coach (lowest level, whatever that is in the US), to help out with training the young archers. Your opinions on this matter are important to me, before I make a final decision. So again, thanks for all the input!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I think that sums it up. I've told more than one aspiring coach that before being considered a "top" coach, somewhere along the way, they need to estabilsh some credibility. Credibility in the eyes of the prospective archer/student is critical.
> 
> There are two ways to do this: 1) Obtain world class experience as an archer, or 2) Coach archers to the world class level.
> 
> ...


True

If you look at tennis-probably the sport where the public awareness of the coaches is most obvious you will see that most of the top players have former VERY GOOD players as coaches. And they Change Coaches constantly. Paul Annacone was a top 30 player, coached Sampras. SO did both of the Gullikson brothers-they won a bunch of doubles tournaments. Andre Agassi was coached by Darren Cahill (US Open seminfinalist) and Brad Gilbert (won 20+ pro tournaments). Becker had top ten player I Tiriac as a coach, etc. IN a SPORT like tennis, you need someone you can hit with and obviously for a Sampras that means another at least former world class player.

In table tennis, many of the top coaches are former world class players such as Stellan Bengston (WC, 71) who is a top coach in San Diego and was a top coach for sweden or Christian Martin (France's #3 player who coached JP Gatien to the world crown in 93)

IN a discipline I don't think the talent to compete at the highest level is quite as important. I was a better shot than any of my skeet coaches ever were.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

If you have the passion for the sport and the "people skill" you should do it!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If you have the passion for the sport and the "people skill" you should do it!


Agreed. The archery world is desperately short of good coaches. And we've got enough poor ones alright...

The things I think lead to a "poor" archery coach are 1) ego, 2) inexperience, 3) poor communication skills, 4) lack of concern for the whole archer.

Probably in that order. I've seen a number of coaches that had great potential, but their egos kept getting in the way. 

This is one area in particular that I appreciated Lloyd Brown. I never once saw him posturing or promoting himself. It was always about the sport or what was best for the archer. Which is probably why he's heading to Europe right now. This country forgot how to reward humility a long time ago...

John.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

some of my fellow PMI's in the Corps were some pretty lousy shooters.......BUT, they knew the fundamentals, knew how to TEACH the fundamentals, could recognize problems in shooters and knew how to correct them, had the personality for the job, didn't mind speaking to a group of shooters, were able to put lesson plans together, were able to recognize safety concerns, knew how to handle range officials, could adjust to individual personalities on the fly and use the coaching style that worked best in that situation, etc etc etc. There is a lot more to coaching than being able to shoot well.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

All a good coach needs to be able to do is have in depth knowledge about the sport and how to teach it, have great people skills, a great motivator and a true passion for the sport.

They don't HAVE to be good at it...but in many cases they will go hand in hand.

Some of the most gifted athletes can make terrible coaches because they lack the areas above I mentioned.

Ray


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

A good coach must have the ability to apply and relate to others the knowledge needed to excel at sport and other aspects of the students choosen skill to learn.

When you learn to be a coach in archery you learn Techincal (Data) and Practical (Application) of archery.

There is a third part that applies to all sport and in my view is the most important........The Student ( Physical and Mental Health, Human Kenetics).

Being a top archer does not make you a great coach, but having the ability to relate the passion for it will. 

IMHO


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think we can agree that a great archer doesn't automatically make a great coach.

However, even the best coaches who have never competed at the top levels will struggle to understand certain things, like "feel" and dealing with pressure.

Not saying they can't get a grasp on these things, but it's hard to explain the first-hand experience of being in the moment if you've never been there yourself. 

So, Ideally, it would be a combination of the two.

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

IMHO a coach with less than excellent shooting skills but more gifted in other areas like communication and people skills and an understanding of the sport SHOULD be able to become a good coach..

in this case it will depend on the final products he will eventually produce..


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Obvoiusly it helps to be a top competitor to get an archer to listen to you. However you must be able to communicate the information you want to impart and you must not impart too much at one time.


My recent session with Coach Kim Hyung Tak blew my mind, I've no idea how good a shot he is but he gained my respect very quickly, his understanding of body movement and his 'hands on' teaching method was very impressive, I could understand and feel what he was trying to show me and I could see positive results straight away.

Communication is the key to good coaching, if you can get your message accross in a way they Archer understands you gain their respect and trust very fast. The skill of a good coach is really understanding the Archers requirements and communicating in a way they understand. 

An experienced top shooter can give something extra in coaching and that's sharing their experience with dealing with tourney pressure.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Something to consider....anyone who wants to compete in archery can. You don't have to be a top level archer to understand competition preasure.

Ray


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Something to consider....anyone who wants to compete in archery can. You don't have to be a top level archer to understand competition preasure.
> 
> Ray


...sori but i have to disagree on this one..

the pressure increases as the tournaments become more important and/or prestigious--

i entered some of our professional golf tournaments as an amateur in my younger days just for the experience..
when i entered amateur only events shortly after competing in a pro event it felt like a walk in the park--as far as the pressure was concerned.. 

as an archer i also competed in our national opens--when i joined our monthly club shoots after it also felt like a walk in the park...JMHO....PS..i always had a much better showing in the lesser event after a bigger one..but maybe it's just me..


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Something to consider....anyone who wants to compete in archery can. You don't have to be a top level archer to understand competition preasure.
> 
> Ray


Ray 

I could pretty much explain what it's like to walk on the moon but I imagine after Neil Armstrong explained it, you would feel like you've been there yourself.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Guys....it's just a state of mind which most everyone if not everyone can experience...unlike walking on the moon. Anyone can feel the preasure of what it's like to compete at a high level because what is commonly felt..is anxiety or nerves....which is what we are basically talking about.

Someone giving a speech for the first time can experience it. Someone performing their first music recital can experience it. An archer competeing for the first time or an archer competeing in a world competition can expereince it. It can hit us at different points in our journey.

The people and the situations may be different...but what all those people may experience emotionally and mentally are basically the same.

The basics of how a person overcomes those feelings applies to an archer whether they are competeing for the first time, shooting in front of people for the first time, shooting at a big buck or performing trick shots in front of crowds. It's all in how you prepare yourself physically, mentally and emotionally to deal with it.

So you don't HAVE to compete at a high level to understand how to overcome those feelings and how teach others how to overcome them.

Ray


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ray, you may be correct for some. However, there is more to competing at the top level than handling the pressure. It's how you respond to it and make adjustments that matters. It's also the subtle adjustments to lighting, wind, weather, etc. that seperates the top competitors from the rest. 

Hard to explain those things if you've never mastered them yourself.

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

to BW...again i'm sorry to disagree but if YOU have NEVER been there you will have no idea how it feels....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

jmvargas said:


> to BW...again i'm sorry to disagree but if YOU have NEVER been there you will have no idea how it feels....


true. Years ago I dated a young lady who worked at a TGIF and the bar had a guy (who had a couple busts for bookmaking) who would sit at the bar constantly watching college hoops. He had the physique approaching Jabba the Hutt. I remember him going ballistic when some 18 year old kid missed a free throw in one of the big March Madness games-I think it was a regional final. He was acting like he wanted to take out a hit on the player. SO I asked him if he had ever been in such a situation and he shrugged it off. He babbled about playing golf in high school but then admitted he had no clue.

The funny thing was that bar area often had a guy who played pro ball for Pittsburg (his wife was a bar tender) and he would just sort of chuckle at the jock-sniffer and his rants. He knew what pressure was and wasn't about to go nuts when some guy missed a tackle or a free throw.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I thought shooting top level IFAA European\World tourney was pretty pressured but it was nothing compared to shooting the final shoot off for Gold at the Fita world 3D's this year in Italy.

Tv cameras in your face while on the shooting stake, around a 1000 spectators watching, I really felt the pressure. I had my methods of dealing with it and it paid off, the Frenchman folded under the pressure by missing the third target, it felt to me like it wasn't about who was the best shot it was more about who handled the pressure the best.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jmvargas said:


> to BW...again i'm sorry to disagree but if YOU have NEVER been there you will have no idea how it feels....


That's just it....I have been there...whether I'm performing trick shots in front of crowds, competeing in Vegas, shooting in front of a film crew, shooting in front of large crowds or competeing in a local 3D tournament...it all boils down to the same thing.

It's how you learn to deal with preasure...which can be felt and experienced at any stage of an archer's journey. You DO NOT have to be a world class archer to experience those.

For those of you that feel shooting at a high level such as a world class shooter is so different than someone experience the same feelings at a lower level competition or situation...what do you do differently to calm yourself than an archer competeing at a lower level?

I can answer that for you...what you would do is no different than if you were an archer feeling preasure while competeing at a lower level. The breathing techniques are the same. The mental games you can play out in your head are the same. The only thing different may be the situation you will be in and how you prepare to shoot in those conditions such as a different type target, different lighting, different distractions, etc.

Again...a good or great coach DOES NOT have to have shot in a high level competition to have experienced the feelings of anxiety or distractions an archer may feel in order to help another archer overcome those feelings...but I do feel a good coach will have at least felt and learned to overcome anxiety and preasure in a similar situation...just not at the world class level some of you believe they have to.

Ray


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I have been there...whether I'm performing trick shots in front of crowds, competeing in Vegas, shooting in front of a film crew, shooting in front of large crowds or competeing in a local 3D tournament


Interesting...



> Division: Non-Sighted Limited Championship
> Place Name Location Flight Day 1 Score Day 1 X's Day 2 Score Day 2 X's Day 3 Score Day 3 X's Total Score Total X's Money Won
> 14 COOK, RAY CO, USA 1 203 1 188 0 204 0 595 1 $ 0


Sorry Ray. Just a little fact check...

What film crew, may I ask?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

steve morley said:


> *it felt to me like it wasn't about who was the best shot it was more about who handled the pressure the best.*



You've nailed it my friend!


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## 76Scout-Dad (Feb 15, 2007)

*Baseball*

I look at it this way....some of the very best Major League Hitting coaches happened to have poor hitting stats during there playing days. Doesn't mean they don't know "nuts & bolts" or how best to communicate that information.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

baseball---major leagues vs minor leagues=apples vs peanuts???

another one in golf---pga tour vs nationwide tour=apples vs peanuts....

tennis--apt tour vs satellite tours=apples vs peanuts...

....i hope you get my drift guys....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

if i may also add...in archery i would rank the olympics as the highest ranked tournament followed by the worlds....

if you have competed there you KNOW what pressure is all about.....JMHO.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Interesting...
> 
> Sorry Ray. Just a little fact check...
> 
> What film crew, may I ask?


No need to appologize John...unless you are trying to be condensending.

I agree...what you researched is part of the facts...but as far as you being an outsider to my personal situation...the only thing you can do is make assumptions or better yet you could ask questions.

When I competed in Vegas I was told that our class (Barebow) could shoot at the single spot but when I arrived and signed in the officials told me we all had to shoot the 3 spot, which I hadn't prepared for and it totally messed with my head. Back home I was averaging 260, which wouldn't have won the tournament but my main goal wasn't winning but the experience.

Now if I did have a good coach...I would have been better prepared because he would have known the circumstances I was going to be shooting in to help me. A good coach doesn't need to shoot in those conditions to know or understand what those would be. They just have to be aware of them by doing some research, by being an observer or by competeing themselves. The mistake I made was in trusting my buddies, who thought they actually knew the truth. I know now to go straight to the source instead of relying on hearsay in this situation.

No amount of breathing or mind games were going to help me overcome that situation that weekend. It was a matter of going back home and better preparing myself for the next time based on information I should have already known by going straight to the source. I shouldn't need a coach to tell me that 

As far as shooting in front of a film crew...that happened a few years back in our annual big trad shoot where some guys were doing a documentary on archery and asked a few of the board members, who was one of the better shots here at the tournament....so they approached me and one of my buddies if they could follow us around on the course.

One of the best ways I have learned to overcome that stress is a combination of certain focus techniques, proper practice and relaxed breathing....something any good coach can teach and doesn't require that they have to shoot at a high level to teach it to me or anyone else. Sometimes you just have to experience it over and over again until you overcome it...and no amount of coaching can get you passed that point. Sometimes you just got to keep getting back up on that horse 

I don't know if many of you know who Dean Brittenham is but he is one of the best athletic coaches around and I don't believe he was ever an elite athlete.

Ray


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

I have to agree with all of you who have said that a coach for a top level athlete should have first hand experience (not necessarily success, i.e. Gold medals) as a top level competitor.

But this is surely asking too much of the guy coaching beginners at a local club. I do. however, firmly believe that good coaches, no matter what level, should share some basic traits:

1. working knowledge of good technique and basic knowledge of physiology
2. a passion for archery
3. excellent interpersonal skills, in particular communication
4. the desire to see their pupils excel
5. competitive experience


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Flint Hills Tex said:


> I have to agree with all of you who have said that a coach for a top level athlete should have first hand experience (not necessarily success, i.e. Gold medals) as a top level competitor.
> 
> But this is surely asking too much of the guy coaching beginners at a local club. I do. however, firmly believe that good coaches, no matter what level, should share some basic traits:
> 
> ...


Those are great thoughts and it is a reason as Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations." There are those like me who never competed at the high level of competition. So, I know my place is teaching kids the basics and when they get to a certain level (olympian in JOAD) it is time to hand them off to someone who can take them to the next level. I submit it may be a waste of the resource to have elite coaches tied up with beginners (not saying they can't do it). Their time is better spent helping the ones get to the upper echelon and helping their proteges teach and assist those beginners. The youth coaches have to have talent identification as part of their goals. I did become a better coach when I started shooting (later in life than most of the kids I work with) but there are somethings I just am never going to experience, so I teach what I can and help those I work with find the right mentor when I can't help them anymore.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

to Flint and TomB....both of your posts are spot on..

i think most of us just assumed we were referring to coaches at the highest levels...

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

*You should think of Archery as a Martial Art*

I dont think that Martial Arts and Archery are that different in that they should be taught and learned the same way.
The Sensei (teacher) is not always the most skilled but they have gone through the training and have the experiences to show you the way (DO as in Judo, etc).

Archery is not a team sport and so those skills that would be beneficial in a coach for Soccer or football are not always the same. That being said if you are just coaching a beginner you really shouldn't wait to be the best archer in the world.. you just need the basics to be able to Motivate a new archer to continue to come out to the club and have fun.

If you want to coach intermediate archers than it would be good if you either had a good natural ability in archery or you have been in the sport for some time.

In martial arts, brown belts often teach beginners and it seems to work well.

Kano - famous Judo instructor once said that he learned the most from his beginners.. the same is true in most martial arts and through teaching beginners you can always improve your own understanding of archery but seeing what not to do 

Mick

archeryforbeginners.com

visit my blog and post comments or contact me to volunteer and article. I have take 2 months off from writing but will be back at it after the holidays.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

MickC said:


> ...talking about martial arts...


I find this to be an interesting post. 

I was actually just talking about this today. I took Aikido for 5 years (it's similar to Judo). The last year, I began archery, and things got too crazy trying to do both, so I stuck with archery. 

One day in my very early days (still way newbie) my coach invited me to stay for the intermediate JOAD class. I told her that I would like to, but I had to leave to get to a martial arts class. When she heard that, her face brightened up a lot. 

I think my ability to focus on what I am doing, concentrate for long periods of time, and repeat what I am doing, that is very helpful for archery, was gained because of my martial arts training. 

When we would learn a new technique or we would go over something we already knew, we would get a partner and do it over and over. That is exactly what archery is: repeating a task so you build muscle memory.

I think that most archers would benefit a lot from taking any kind of martial arts class before or during their archery career in many ways.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Interesting discussion ATer’s. Yes, there is a big difference between how to coach a top archer and how to coach a beginning and intermediate archer. I find it funny that some coaches only want to work with the best while it is more important to get the young ones to learn the solid basics. Without that, everything else is pointless.

A good coach has an “expertise” of one of the three disciplines: Physical(technique), Equipment and Mental. I have never met anyone who has mastered all three to the level a top archer would need and demand. 

For example, Lee is an expert of the “biomechanics” or physical. I have never heard him discuss the other two to the level a top archer would expect. Al Henderson was extremely good with the mental while he sent his students to Dick Tone when they had equipment issues. Sheri Rhodes has an incredible capability to spot form differences between one shot to another and her team leadership is by far more superior than any coach I have ever dealt with. Mental and equipment are good but no great. Does that take away from these three well proven coaches? No. They just know their strengths and use them. But the one thing the top archer does that is rather “secret” per se is that they use others to get more for themselves personally. When Jay Barrs was working his way to the top, Dick Tone was his coach, but he asked questions continuously to Sheri, Don Rabksa, myself and others. He was seeking more information in order to complete his needs to be the Olympic Gold Medalist. I did the same. While Sheri was my personal coach, I continued to ask questions to those who have been there or who had the expertise I was seeking. 

For several years now, I have received phone calls from several of the top archers who ask me various questions of training methods, equipment testing and mental approaches. I share my experiences and suggestions to help them to get a better grasp of what to expect when they compete at the World or the Olympics. The point is that a top archer needs a very large group to make it all happen and those coaches who think they can do it all will fail. Helping the archer find the experts will only make the coach a better coach. The coach doesn’t have to be the best in being a champion but they do have to seek out the best to help their archer become the best. 

Lone Wolf, I smiled when I read your note about the Vegas experience. You learn far more from your mistakes than you ever will from your successes. Shig Honda said it best, “You have to learn how to loss before you can become a winner.”


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Yes, there is a big difference between how to coach a top archer and how to coach a beginning and intermediate archer.


I totally agree!



Rick McKinney said:


> Take for instance Al Henderson. I don't think he won anything major but since he coached 100's of archers and some to World and Olympic calibre he was respected and sought after.
> 
> ....as long as you have an understanding of the game and an ability to communicate to the archer you will be a fine coach.
> 
> The coach doesn’t have to be the best in being a champion but they do have to seek out the best to help their archer become the best.


Agree totally!



Rick McKinney said:


> Lone Wolf, I smiled when I read your note about the Vegas experience. You learn far more from your mistakes than you ever will from your successes. Shig Honda said it best, “You have to learn how to loss before you can become a winner.”


I'm guessing you are talking about me since I didn't see a Lone Wolf post here...yet  Either way...again I agree!

Ray


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I totally agree!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Ray, I get my wolves mixed up...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rick's point is excellent. Again, looking at other sports, Andre Agassi had Brad Gilbert who was an expert in tactics: winning dirty. HE also had a trainer who kept him in top shape. Equipment really isn't the same issue in tennis but he consulted with Head's engineers constantly. Some players have specific stroke coaches-for example a "service coach"


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> When I competed in Vegas I was told that our class (Barebow) could shoot at the single spot but when I arrived and signed in the officials told me we all had to shoot the 3 spot, which I hadn't prepared for and it totally messed with my head. Back home I was averaging 260, which wouldn't have won the tournament but my main goal wasn't winning but the experience.
> 
> Ray


Oooh, I know how that feels, cause the same thing happened to me, just not in a high level tournament like Vegas. I was averaging 210 on a 40cm target face at 18m, 30 arrow round (good for me at the time), and took part in a local club tournament where I was required to shoot at a 3 spot face (guess I could have found out ahead of time, but it never occurred to me, since indoors you can usually pick either/or). 

I could keep most of my arrows within the red on a 40cm target face and I *know* that the 3 spot is as big as the center of a 40cm target. But I'd never practiced on them, and it really freaked me. I only shot a 164. 

Like I said, I could have found out ahead of time, or a good coach could have prepared me for all eventualities. What I did learn is just how important your mental game can_ really_ be.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Flint Hills Tex said:


> Oooh, I know how that feels, cause the same thing happened to me, just not in a high level tournament like Vegas. I was averaging 210 on a 40cm target face at 18m, 30 arrow round (good for me at the time), and took part in a local club tournament where I was required to shoot at a 3 spot face (guess I could have found out ahead of time, but it never occurred to me, since indoors you can usually pick either/or).
> 
> I could keep most of my arrows within the red on a 40cm target face and I *know* that the 3 spot is as big as the center of a 40cm target. But I'd never practiced on them, and it really freaked me. I only shot a 164.
> 
> Like I said, I could have found out ahead of time, or a good coach could have prepared me for all eventualities. What I did learn is just how important your mental game can_ really_ be.


Glad to see I'm in good company  That 3 spot can be tough mentally if you haven't prepared for it and missing the scoring ring and getting a big fat zero on that target when the single spot can still give you a 5 score is just the added preasure that did me in with that experience...LOL 

Ray


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

I agree that distractions such as these can be and should be looked at as positive learning experiences as long as the archer still takes 100% responsibility for owning each and every shot.


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